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iceman
03-09-2021, 08:16 AM
Sadly the workers at the MIQ facilities have to deal with lots of idiots like this https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-family-transferred-after-miq-meltdown/F6HSUP47MRDSW3E33NNTS26WVM/

On the 2 occasions I have had to stay at MIQ, I have found the staff professional and good to deal with. It is not an enviable job.

Balance
03-09-2021, 09:25 AM
Not sure about this one. It was an active police operation at the time, so a very fine line to tread

They already knew where he was at the time of the briefing. And police were already at the home of the delta covid positive escapee.

What you have with the 1 pm briefing is a propaganda session - Cindy letting you know what she wants you to know, not what we the public, need to know.

jonu
03-09-2021, 09:31 AM
They already knew where he was at the time of the briefing. And police were already at the home of the delta covid positive escapee.

What you have with the 1 pm briefing is a propaganda session - Cindy letting you know what she wants you to know, not what we the public, need to know.

But it's the pulpit of truth Balance!

Balance
03-09-2021, 09:39 AM
But it's the pulpit of truth Balance!

Indeed it is.

And she is worshipped by sheep.

Balance
03-09-2021, 09:43 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-bill-ralston-failure-to-ensure-prompt-vaccine-supply-the-govts-worst-mistake/L2IP5FHLN6OWHJVOLBIWKXFR3Q/

Big big mistake by Cindy to pursue elimination strategy (does not work) and putting the vaccination rollout on the slow burner, think NZ has all the time in the world to slowly get vaccinated.

Lockdown until Christmas is a high probability if the current lockdown does not work.

Christmas because that’s how it will take to get to 85%+ vaccination rate (if at all) in NZ.

dobby41
03-09-2021, 09:48 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-bill-ralston-failure-to-ensure-prompt-vaccine-supply-the-govts-worst-mistake/L2IP5FHLN6OWHJVOLBIWKXFR3Q/

Big big mistake by Cindy to pursue elimination strategy (does not work) and putting the vaccination rollout on the slow burner, think NZ has all the time in the world to slowly get vaccinated.

Lockdown until Christmas is a high probability if the current lockdown does not work.

Christmas because that’s how it will take to get to 85%+ vaccination rate (if at all) in NZ.

We should have followed Australia eh?
Longest lockdowns ever.
107 deaths now in Sydney from the latest issues - that would be us.

Do you really think we will be in lockdown until Christmas? At the current setting Auckland has probably another 3 weeks at L4 then 2 at L3.

fungus pudding
03-09-2021, 09:51 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-bill-ralston-failure-to-ensure-prompt-vaccine-supply-the-govts-worst-mistake/L2IP5FHLN6OWHJVOLBIWKXFR3Q/

Big big mistake by Cindy to pursue elimination strategy (does not work) and putting the vaccination rollout on the slow burner, think NZ has all the time in the world to slowly get vaccinated.

Lockdown until Christmas is a high probability if the current lockdown does not work.

Christmas because that’s how it will take to get to 85%+ vaccination rate (if at all) in NZ.

Maybe it does work. It's worth a try - given the worst of trhe possible.

12918

Balance
03-09-2021, 10:13 AM
We should have followed Australia eh?
Longest lockdowns ever.
107 deaths now in Sydney from the latest issues - that would be us.

Do you really think we will be in lockdown until Christmas? At the current setting Auckland has probably another 3 weeks at L4 then 2 at L3.

Read the article and my wording carefully - 'pursue elimination strategy (does not work) and putting the vaccination rollout on the slow burner' - that's the big big mistake.

Australia has admitted it got it wrong with its elimination strategy and Plan B was rapidly put in place - accelerated vaccination rollout.

Do you know that NSW (seat of latest outbreak) is 1 day from 70% vaccination rate & only 10 days away from 80% vaccination rate?

They don't muck around but call in favors from their suppliers and other countries - Singapore & Poland for example to get access to vaccine via swap.

dobby41
03-09-2021, 10:34 AM
Read the article and my wording carefully - 'pursue elimination strategy (does not work) and putting the vaccination rollout on the slow burner' - that's the big big mistake.

Australia has admitted it got it wrong with its elimination strategy and Plan B was rapidly put in place - accelerated vaccination rollout.

Do you know that NSW (seat of latest outbreak) is 1 day from 70% vaccination rate & only 10 days away from 80% vaccination rate?

They don't muck around but call in favors from their suppliers and other countries - Singapore & Poland for example to get access to vaccine via swap.

Rapidly put in place - plan B has only been put into place now.

'Slow burner' is largely irrelevant. We have an elimination strategy that is working and will continue to have it until we are suitably vaccinated by the end of the year.
Our rate of vaccination is not greater than Australia but that isn't much of a measure.
1 day from 70% 1st shot maybe - that isn't vaccinated (only 37% fully vaccinated). Also, the rest of the country has been left out - now VIC wants in on the same action (overall they are about 48% single dose).
They needed access to more Pfizer because people didn't want Astra and it was only approved for older people - they really screwed up their ordering (and CSL is only making about 25% of the Astra they were supposed to - over promise and under deliver).
You still think we should be following them.

We have been fortunate with our strategy to have fewer restrictions than most places
12919

Balance
03-09-2021, 10:39 AM
Write all you want, dobby41 - fact is that Cindy & her incompetents screwed up by negotiating NZ from ‘front of the queue to last in the queue.’

A progressive government would have us vaccinated to 80%+ by now while we were Covid-free.

dobby41
03-09-2021, 10:42 AM
Write all you want, dobby41 - fact is that Cindy & her incompetents screwed up by negotiating NZ from ‘front of the queue to last in the queue.’

A progressive government would have us vaccinated to 80%+ by now while we were Covid-free.

Fortunately, we didn't follow your suggestions.

Balance
03-09-2021, 10:52 AM
Fortunately, we didn't follow your suggestions.

You mean suggestion to stay in front of the vaccine queue?

Cindy has you wrapped around her little finger, hasn't she?

Would you like Kiwibuild with your vaccination rollout, Sir?

artemis
03-09-2021, 11:14 AM
You mean suggestion to stay in front of the vaccine queue?

Cindy has you wrapped around her little finger, hasn't she?

Would you like Kiwibuild with your vaccination rollout, Sir?

David Seymour called it the vaccine stroll out.

Balance
03-09-2021, 11:41 AM
David Seymour called it the vaccine stroll out.

Just heard on Newstalk 1ZB that in response (from the truth pulpit) to a question on vaccine supply, Cindy’s reply & spin are that ‘Supply is not a problem. Demand has been the problem.’

A play on ‘People are not the problem. The virus is the problem.’ Never mind people escaping from MIQ & circumventing lockdown rules. The virus is to be blamed.

She cannot help herself.

dobby41
03-09-2021, 12:56 PM
You mean suggestion to stay in front of the vaccine queue?

I mean the suggestion made on numerous occasions that we should follow Australia (into their mess).
When Taiwan was looking good you suggested we follow them.
Everything with a bit of hindsight.
You're as bad as Hosking!


Just heard on Newstalk 1ZB that in response (from the truth pulpit) to a question on vaccine supply, Cindy’s reply & spin are that ‘Supply is not a problem. Demand has been the problem.’

You really don't keep up, do you?
That was a week or 2 ago.
There was an expansion on that comment.
She also said that it was a good problem to have (the increased demand).

I suggested a while back that we needed an outbreak to make people take this seriously - up the tracing scans and vaccination bookings.
It's worked - pity people didn't do the right thing earlier.

Joshuatree
03-09-2021, 01:09 PM
Totally right re the hosings comparison. Will look up the interview with the two mike hosings again.:t_up:

Balance
03-09-2021, 01:11 PM
I mean the suggestion made on numerous occasions that we should follow Australia (into their mess).
When Taiwan was looking good you suggested we follow them.
Everything with a bit of hindsight.
You're as bad as Hosking!



You really don't keep up, do you?
That was a week or 2 ago.
There was an expansion on that comment.
She also said that it was a good problem to have (the increased demand).

I suggested a while back that we needed an outbreak to make people take this seriously - up the tracing scans and vaccination bookings.
It's worked - pity people didn't do the right thing earlier.

You are assuming Australia is NSW & Victoria only? Have you had a look at what is happening in WA, Queensland, SA & NT?

Taiwan’s big mistake after successfully navigating the first global outbreak (using minimal lockdown) was to then let its guard down and opened up the country to international flights without adequate safeguards. Airline pilots & crews were allowed to freely enter and leave the country, introducing the virus unchecked until it was too late.

As for supply not being a problem, only you would accept Cindy’s explanation. Front of the queue to last in the queue - that takes some momentous stuff up to achieve.

dobby41
03-09-2021, 01:20 PM
You are assuming Australia is NSW & Victoria only? Have you had a look at what is happening in WA, Queensland, SA & NT?

Taiwan’s big mistake after successfully navigating the first global outbreak (using minimal lockdown) was to then let its guard down and opened up the country to international flights without adequate safeguards. Airline pilots & crews were allowed to freely enter and leave the country, introducing the virus unchecked until it was too late.

As for supply not being a problem, only you would accept Cindy’s explanation. Front of the queue to last in the queue - that takes some momentous stuff up to achieve.

I don't assume at all.
Maybe you weren't clear when you said we should follow Australia when you meant 'follow Australia but not NSW or VIC'.

So Taiwan made mistakes - we should have followed them? Or did you mean to follow Taiwan in anything that, in hindsight, is successful?

On Vaccination - nice graph here, note the momentum NZ has over Australia and Taiwan (stuttering) in particular.
The Govt always said that the plan was to ramp up as the year went on.

12922

dobby41
03-09-2021, 01:26 PM
As for supply not being a problem, only you would accept Cindy’s explanation. Front of the queue to last in the queue - that takes some momentous stuff up to achieve.

If you could get over your abject (and un-balanced) hatred of the Labour Government (and the PM in particular) you would see that the vaccination is actually doing well now (some say late but it is ahead of the plan published some time ago).
80k jabs yesterday.
57% of eligible with 1 shot - 30% double.
Importantly 71% of eligible have either had 1 shot or are booked for the shot. Expect that to go up since it is only 3 days since the 12-30 were eligible to book.

Balance
03-09-2021, 01:40 PM
If you could get over your abject (and un-balanced) hatred of the Labour Government (and the PM in particular) you would see that the vaccination is actually doing well now (some say late but it is ahead of the plan published some time ago).
80k jabs yesterday.
57% of eligible with 1 shot - 30% double.
Importantly 71% of eligible have either had 1 shot or are booked for the shot. Expect that to go up since it is only 3 days since the 12-30 were eligible to book.

If you keep on revising the plan, of course you will always be ahead of the plan.

Front of the queue to last in the queue - that is set in stone fortunately so Cindy cannot spin her way out of that one.

fungus pudding
03-09-2021, 01:52 PM
If you could get over your abject (and un-balanced) hatred of the Labour Government (and the PM in particular) you would see that the vaccination is actually doing well now (some say late but it is ahead of the plan published some time ago).
80k jabs yesterday.
57% of eligible with 1 shot - 30% double.
Importantly 71% of eligible have either had 1 shot or are booked for the shot. Expect that to go up since it is only 3 days since the 12-30 were eligible to book.

Not sure how you work that out. The number vacinated will rise, but so will the number eligible. That could drop it below 71%, although unlikely.

dobby41
03-09-2021, 02:14 PM
If you keep on revising the plan, of course you will always be ahead of the plan.

Front of the queue to last in the queue - that is set in stone fortunately so Cindy cannot spin her way out of that one.

It hasn't changed for a long, long time.
It may have changed from before the decision to go solely with Pfizer but I think the moans then were that there wasn't a plan.
We may have been front of the queue when we were wanting 1.5mil doses (the original plan (though I think it was a bad 'turn of phrase')) but when that changed to 10.2mil ...

dobby41
03-09-2021, 02:18 PM
Not sure how you work that out. The number vacinated will rise, but so will the number eligible. That could drop it below 71%, although unlikely.

I see what you mean.
My thought was that the 12-30 are now included in the eligible number but haven't had a lot of time to book (<3days).
Make sense?

fungus pudding
03-09-2021, 02:32 PM
I see what you mean.
My thought was that the 12-30 are now included in the eligible number but haven't had a lot of time to book (<3days).
Make sense?

Yes it does, and you may be right - which would mean i am wrong. As they say - there's a first time for everything.
{I somehow read/misread that as the young group would become eligible in 3 days. I'll crawl back under my rock.)

iceman
03-09-2021, 02:52 PM
I mean the suggestion made on numerous occasions that we should follow Australia (into their mess).
When Taiwan was looking good you suggested we follow them.
Everything with a bit of hindsight.
You're as bad as Hosking!



You really don't keep up, do you?
That was a week or 2 ago.
There was an expansion on that comment.
She also said that it was a good problem to have (the increased demand).

I suggested a while back that we needed an outbreak to make people take this seriously - up the tracing scans and vaccination bookings.
It's worked - pity people didn't do the right thing earlier.

Only an ill prepared PM & Government would call enthusiasm for vaccinations "a problem".

dobby41
03-09-2021, 03:04 PM
Only an ill prepared PM & Government would call enthusiasm for vaccinations "a problem".

"Problem" was my word - I can't remember, exactly, the words she used (no quote marks).

winner69
03-09-2021, 03:22 PM
ScMo got heaps of vaccine from Poland and then some from Singapore and now says he’s getting 4 million doses from the UK

Hipkins will tell us soon when he’s signed off a deal

stoploss
03-09-2021, 03:28 PM
ScMo got heaps of vaccine from Poland and then some from Singapore and now says he’s getting 4 million doses from the UK

Hipkins will tell us soon when he’s signed off a deal
Surely we could borrow a million doses for a month .

fungus pudding
03-09-2021, 03:32 PM
"Problem" was my word - I can't remember, exactly, the words she used (no quote marks).

Not many people have problems these-days. They have 'issues'.

Balance
03-09-2021, 03:56 PM
ScMo got heaps of vaccine from Poland and then some from Singapore and now says he’s getting 4 million doses from the UK

Hipkins will tell us soon when he’s signed off a deal

As usual the Aussies have beaten NZ to it. Like cancelling the citizenship of the ISIS terrorist with her kids (most likely born of several unknown fathers). And her family members have moved over here too now to add to our welfare ranks.

Blue Skies
03-09-2021, 03:57 PM
Surely we could borrow a million doses for a month .

As I understand it & happy to be corrected, but we started September with around 800,000 doses, and we are getting in 300,000 doses per week BUT since vaccination rates suddenly soared to 80 or 90,000 vaccinations being done per day, if we keep up that vaccination rate, we may not have enough before a big shipment arrives in October. It’s hard to match supply when demand is not reasonably consistent & suddenly soars ( due to the outbreak) as complacency evaporates. But using those numbers we may have enough anyway, & I don’t know why they don’t simply prioritise. Eg Why has Nelson a much higher vaccination rate than Auckland?

dobby41
03-09-2021, 04:53 PM
As I understand it & happy to be corrected, but we started September with around 800,000 doses, and we are getting in 300,000 doses per week BUT since vaccination rates suddenly soared to 80 or 90,000 vaccinations being done per day, if we keep up that vaccination rate, we may not have enough before a big shipment arrives in October. It’s hard to match supply when demand is not reasonably consistent & suddenly soars ( due to the outbreak) as complacency evaporates. But using those numbers we may have enough anyway, & I don’t know why they don’t simply prioritise. Eg Why has Nelson a much higher vaccination rate than Auckland?

I think that is about it.

Australia has done a good job getting extra doses but they started a bit earlier because they didn't order enough early enough (they didn't anticipate the reluctance to get the Astra vaccine).
We didn't anticipate Delta in the community pushing people to get their shots (not so long ago it was hard to get arms to jab).

Balance
03-09-2021, 05:23 PM
I think that is about it.

Australia has done a good job getting extra doses but they started a bit earlier because they didn't order enough early enough (they didn't anticipate the reluctance to get the Astra vaccine).
We didn't anticipate Delta in the community pushing people to get their shots (not so long ago it was hard to get arms to jab).

Not true.

The Auckland vaccination centres have been busy right from the word ‘go’.

I know individuals with underlying health conditions having to go from one centre to another until they got to one which accepted walk ins. They were happy to queue up for 2 hours for the opportunity to get a jab. Fact.

Balance
03-09-2021, 05:32 PM
As usual the Aussies have beaten NZ to it. Like cancelling the citizenship of the ISIS terrorist with her kids (most likely born of several unknown fathers). And her family members have moved over here too now to add to our welfare ranks.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300399152/watch-live-auckland-supermarket-stabbings-a-terror-attack-prime-minister-says

Terror attacked in Auckland mall.

Let’s be kind and allow back in more terrorists.

We don’t know how lucky we are to have Cindy as our ‘kind’ PM.

Wonder what attire she will be wearing when she arrives back to Auckland to comfort the victims. Hijab again?

dobby41
03-09-2021, 05:39 PM
Not true.

The Auckland vaccination centres have been busy right from the word ‘go’.

I know individuals with underlying health conditions having to go from one centre to another until they got to one which accepted walk ins. They were happy to queue up for 2 hours for the opportunity to get a jab. Fact.

You, yourself, made a lot of comments on the South Auckland vaccination event and the lack of initial uptake.

dobby41
03-09-2021, 05:40 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300399152/watch-live-auckland-supermarket-stabbings-a-terror-attack-prime-minister-says

Terror attacked in Auckland mall.

Let’s be kind and allow back in more terrorists.

We don’t know how lucky we are to have Cindy as our ‘kind’ PM.

Wonder what attire she will be wearing when she arrives back to Auckland to comfort the victims. Hijab again?

Maybe you need to get some facts before you comment.
'Allow back in' - what are you suggesting?
Only you could turn this into a political issue.
Get some balance!

Balance
03-09-2021, 05:48 PM
You, yourself, made a lot of comments on the South Auckland vaccination event and the lack of initial uptake.

Absolutely.

I can categorically tell you that many of the brown population of Auckland were simply not interested in getting the jab.

So what happened was that people from other races (predominantly Asians as a %tage of their population & pakeha) happily took up the spare vaccination spaces - 13,000 of the 15,500 jabs. Fact.

dobby41
03-09-2021, 05:56 PM
Absolutely.

I can categorically tell you that many of the brown population of Auckland were simply not interested in getting the jab.



And since Delta made its' way into the community the 'brown' community (as you call it) vaccination rate has climbed significantly. Fact!

Balance
03-09-2021, 05:59 PM
And since Delta made its' way into the community the 'brown' community (as you call it) vaccination rate has climbed significantly. Fact!

But your point was that the demand was not there - not true as the centres were always busy. Just not with the target group who could not be bothered.

Balance
03-09-2021, 06:00 PM
Maybe you need to get some facts before you comment.
'Allow back in' - what are you suggesting?
Only you could turn this into a political issue.
Get some balance!

Just imagine for one minute what NZ would be dealing with if this terrorist had a gun.

‘Cindy said the individual was a known threat the NZ and under constant monitoring.It was the police surveillance team and special tactics group, who were part of that monitoring and surveillance, that shot and killed him. That happened within about 60 seconds of the attacks starting.’

So why was he allowed to be out there?

fungus pudding
03-09-2021, 06:04 PM
Just imagine for one minute what NZ would be dealing with if this terrorist had a gun.

‘Cindy said the individual was a known threat the NZ and under constant monitoring.It was the police surveillance team and special tactics group, who were part of that monitoring and surveillance, that shot and killed him. That happened within about 60 seconds of the attacks starting.’

So why was he allowed to be out there?

For the same reason you are.

Sgt Pepper
03-09-2021, 06:08 PM
For the same reason you are.

The Police Minister MUST resign

Balance
03-09-2021, 06:09 PM
For the same reason you are.

He was a known threat.

Oh well, let in more ISIS sympathisers including their children from unknown fathers. More’s the merrier?

Balance
03-09-2021, 06:12 PM
The Police Minister MUST resign

Nowhere to be seen. Probably consoling some gang members jailed for drug & assault offences for being victimised by our incarceration system.

FTG
03-09-2021, 06:49 PM
Australia has done a good job getting extra doses but they started a bit earlier because they didn't order enough early enough (they didn't anticipate the reluctance to get the Astra vaccine).


Keep in mind that it was only about a month ago that Aussie & NZ were pretty much at equal pegging for numbers of folk fully vaccinated. Now Aussie is well and truly out performing NZ. They are sitting at 36% whereas we are now 11% behind at 25%.

Balance
03-09-2021, 06:55 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300399119/man-shot-dead-after-stabbing-at-mall-had-been-sentenced-for-possessing-isis-propaganda

Known ISIS sympathiser who received a wet parking ticket slap on the wrist - supervision!

Blue Skies
03-09-2021, 06:59 PM
The Police Minister MUST resign


What on earth for?
Why politicise a shocking tragedy.

Lone wolf terrorist under suppression order from the Courts, just as frustrating for the Minister of Police & PM as you or I.
There’s only half a dozen people in NZ under surveillance which this guy was, but this guy goes to the supermarket unarmed, not going to ring alarm bells is it.

Balance
03-09-2021, 07:11 PM
What on earth for?
Why politicise a shocking tragedy.

Lone wolf terrorist under suppression order from the Courts, just as frustrating for the Minister of Police & PM as you or I.
There’s only half a dozen people in NZ under surveillance which this guy was, but this guy goes to the supermarket unarmed, not going to ring alarm bells is it.

Because she should have been keeping a close eye on the situation and enacting tougher laws to prevent something like this from occurring.

Instead, she has been busy undermining the police and playing race politics.

jonu
03-09-2021, 07:24 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300399119/man-shot-dead-after-stabbing-at-mall-had-been-sentenced-for-possessing-isis-propaganda

Known ISIS sympathiser who received a wet parking ticket slap on the wrist - supervision!

This quote from the article seems to me where the authorities have messed up

Crown prosecutor Henry Steele acknowledged the man had spent a long time in custody and suggested the appropriate sentence was one of intensive supervision.

“He has been a real concern to the Crown for a number of years and those concerns remain.”

This was essentially repeat offending, and he had not had opportunity to access rehabilitation, Steele said.

You would hope they could have held him in Preventive Detention and given him the chance of rehabilitation from there. Maybe there was something legally preventing that.

Sgt Pepper
03-09-2021, 07:36 PM
This quote from the article seems to me where the authorities have messed up

Crown prosecutor Henry Steele acknowledged the man had spent a long time in custody and suggested the appropriate sentence was one of intensive supervision.

“He has been a real concern to the Crown for a number of years and those concerns remain.”

This was essentially repeat offending, and he had not had opportunity to access rehabilitation, Steele said.

You would hope they could have held him in Preventive Detention and given him the chance of rehabilitation from there. Maybe there was something legally preventing that.

A Commission of Inquiry is, I believe, required

Balance
03-09-2021, 08:11 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300399197/why-supermarket-terror-attacker-wasnt-charged-under-terror-laws-despite-being-on-watchlist

Excerpt :

‘The Crown previously tried to use anti-terror laws against the Isis sympathiser shot dead by police following a knife attack at a West Auckland supermarket – but it was turned down by the courts.

The man was facing charges of possessing a hunting knife and possessing objectionable publications that included Isis videos of extreme violence, and the Crown sought to also have him charged under the Terror Suppression Act, claiming he was planning a “knife attack”.

But in a judgment released in July 2020, Justice Mathew Downs declined the application after reviewing the legislation and what it allowed.

The man was later found guilty of possessing two objectionable publications and refusing to comply with a police search, but was acquitted of possessing a hunting knife and possessing an objectionable video.’

Interesting commentary about the judge :

https://www.kiwisfirst.com/judge-file-index/high-court-justice-matthew-downs/

Excerpt : ‘Whereas most judicial appointees try their best to be fair during their judicial honeymoon, Downs almost immediately became drunk on the immense power he determined fell to judges in New Zealand.’

Mathew Downs’ judicial appointment raised broad consternation and disbelief within the legal profession.

It was not lack of ability but, rather, the universal dislike for Downs within the profession, where likeability and respect is generally the foremost qualification for appointment consideration.

Downs J’s bench personality is standoffish, pompous, unhelpful and sometimes grim.

He seldom speaks. He is a prolific notetaker.

When he is nervous, he stutters.

One QC summarised Downs best: “What he lacks in goodness he makes up for in confidence.”

Logen Ninefingers
04-09-2021, 07:50 AM
Does anyone know why this known terrorist was allowed to remain in NZ at huge cost to the taxpayer, and ultimately at huge cost to his victims who will carry trauma and physical scars for the rest of their lives?

Was he a brain surgeon or something(?) How did he get here in the first place? Do we just take anyone?

Once such a person is here and is pursuing a criminal path and is a known threat to the NZ public, why on earth is he not deported?

How many others are currently ‘under close survelliance’ to the extent that armed police are traipsing around after them, hoping to nip an attack in the bud before too many people are injured or killed?

What a waste of police resources. 5 years of following a terrorist 24/7. And if he hadn’t attacked, would we conceivably have had police resources tied up for years monitoring his every move? Is this what is happening with the others on the list that the PM has seen?

Is this what we are store for with the ‘ISIS bride’? Police officers whose entire career consists of babysitting a terrorist / terrorist sympathiser for decades?

What a crazy world we live in.

Logen Ninefingers
04-09-2021, 07:54 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300399197/why-supermarket-terror-attacker-wasnt-charged-under-terror-laws-despite-being-on-watchlist

Excerpt :

‘The Crown previously tried to use anti-terror laws against the Isis sympathiser shot dead by police following a knife attack at a West Auckland supermarket – but it was turned down by the courts.

The man was facing charges of possessing a hunting knife and possessing objectionable publications that included Isis videos of extreme violence, and the Crown sought to also have him charged under the Terror Suppression Act, claiming he was planning a “knife attack”.

But in a judgment released in July 2020, Justice Mathew Downs declined the application after reviewing the legislation and what it allowed.

The man was later found guilty of possessing two objectionable publications and refusing to comply with a police search, but was acquitted of possessing a hunting knife and possessing an objectionable video.’

Interesting commentary about the judge :

https://www.kiwisfirst.com/judge-file-index/high-court-justice-matthew-downs/

Excerpt : ‘Whereas most judicial appointees try their best to be fair during their judicial honeymoon, Downs almost immediately became drunk on the immense power he determined fell to judges in New Zealand.’

Mathew Downs’ judicial appointment raised broad consternation and disbelief within the legal profession.

It was not lack of ability but, rather, the universal dislike for Downs within the profession, where likeability and respect is generally the foremost qualification for appointment consideration.

Downs J’s bench personality is standoffish, pompous, unhelpful and sometimes grim.

He seldom speaks. He is a prolific notetaker.

When he is nervous, he stutters.

One QC summarised Downs best: “What he lacks in goodness he makes up for in confidence.”

I wonder how you be acquitted of possessing a hunting knife if you are found to have purchased and own a hunting knife(?) Likewise on the objectionable video.

What a crazy world we live in.

jonu
04-09-2021, 08:09 AM
I wonder how you be acquitted of possessing a hunting knife if you are found to have purchased and own a hunting knife(?) Likewise on the objectionable video.

What a crazy world we live in.

Lots of people own hunting knives Logen. That in itself is not illegal. It would appear that this guy was on the margins of a number of criminal and antisocial activities without going far enough for our open democracy to be able to lock him up. At least it appears that way....there needs to be independent eyes looking at this,

Balance
04-09-2021, 08:31 AM
These days, I get most of my exercise from shaking my head in total disbelief.

winner69
04-09-2021, 08:35 AM
I take it this isn’t a compliment (from post above):


“One QC summarised Downs best: “What he lacks in goodness he makes up for in confidence.”

fungus pudding
04-09-2021, 09:02 AM
I take it this isn’t a compliment (from post above):


“One QC summarised Downs best: “What he lacks in goodness he makes up for in confidence.”

Very perceptive w69.

Bjauck
04-09-2021, 09:30 AM
Lots of people own hunting knives Logen. That in itself is not illegal. It would appear that this guy was on the margins of a number of criminal and antisocial activities without going far enough for our open democracy to be able to lock him up. At least it appears that way....there needs to be independent eyes looking at this, Full details are not in the public domain yet. However has been a resident of NZ for ten years. He had been under surveillance for some time for security reasons. People with permanent resident visas (with foreign citizenship) can be deported if they are are a threat to NZ's security. His IS sympathies, his involvement with police and the Courts for trying to fight for a terrorist organisation. - these circumstances had clearly identified him as a threat.

Why was he not deported by the Minister of Immigration and the required Crown Order-in-Council? Do members of the public have to be seriously injured or murdered first?

jonu
04-09-2021, 09:41 AM
Full details are not in the public domain yet. However has been a resident of NZ for ten years. He had been under surveillance for some time for security reasons. People with permanent resident visas (with foreign citizenship) can be deported if they are are a threat to NZ's security. His IS sympathies, his involvement with police and the Courts for trying to fight for a terrorist organisation. - these circumstances had clearly identified him as a threat.

Why was he not deported by the Minister of Immigration and the required Crown Order-in-Council? Do members of the public have to be seriously injured or murdered first?

I don't think we yet know his citizenship status

Blue Skies
04-09-2021, 09:55 AM
The Police Minister MUST resign


Thank heavens for the Police.

In this case, frustrated by the Judiciary,(the police tried to get him locked up) constrained by the law, rushed at a knife wielding maniac and saved possibly many lives.
The police were outstanding in the circumstances.

And yet you show contempt for the police when you kick off & say 'the Police Minister MUST resign'.
How demoralising do you think that is for any member of the police or their families if they read that?

dobby41
04-09-2021, 10:18 AM
Keep in mind that it was only about a month ago that Aussie & NZ were pretty much at equal pegging for folk numbers of fully vaccinated. Now Aussie is well and truly out performing NZ. They are sitting at 36% whereas we are now 11% behind at 25%.

But we have more with the 1st shot.
A month ago that was Aussie.

dobby41
04-09-2021, 10:22 AM
I don't think we yet know his citizenship status

I don't think we know much of anything because there is a suppression order (that the Govt will attempt to get lifted).
That doesn't seem to be stopping a certain rabid individual from commenting.

Balance is so quick to judge on the facts he doesn't know.
Only he could turn this into a political issue.

jonu
04-09-2021, 10:45 AM
I don't think we know much of anything because there is a suppression order (that the Govt will attempt to get lifted).
That doesn't seem to be stopping a certain rabid individual from commenting.

Balance is so quick to judge on the facts he doesn't know.
Only he could turn this into a political issue.

Balance might be jumping the gun....but when the facts become clear this will undoubtedly become political.

Phil Goff this morning alluded to the Hate Speech laws that Labour are looking to push through. The horrible irony is that I can see them using this to justify draconian measures on everyone, when if existing laws were properly applied it would be unnecessary. Watch this space!

dobby41
04-09-2021, 10:49 AM
Balance might be jumping the gun....but when the facts become clear this will undoubtedly become political.

Phil Goff this morning alluded to the Hate Speech laws that Labour are looking to push through. The horrible irony is that I can see them using this to justify draconian measures on everyone, when if existing laws were properly applied it would be unnecessary. Watch this space!

This reasonably lays out what is known about 'S' - premium unfortunately
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-isis-supporter-who-allegedly-planned-lone-wolf-attack-in-auckland-could-not-be-charged-as-a-terrorist/63KJAAJO6O3EHUHDHJILE2C3TI/

The Crown sought to prosecute a 32-year-old man — known only as "S" for legal reasons — under the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002, but a High Court judge ruled that preparing a terrorist attack was not in itself an offence under the legislation.

S was instead prosecuted on lesser charges. On May 26, he was found guilty by a jury of possessing propaganda-style material supportive of Islamic State. He was acquitted on other charges of possessing a graphic video depicting a prisoner being decapitated and possession of an offensive weapon.

According to a report prepared for his sentencing in July, S has "the means and motivation to commit violence in the community". Despite the police concerns about the threat to public safety, S was sentenced to one year of supervision, a community-based sentence designed to rehabilitate low-level offenders.

There is a law change before the select committee I believe to address some of this.

You are right, though, that changes in the law will be seen as draconian by many.
Politicians never win so long as people think they are doing things for the wrong reason.

jonu
04-09-2021, 10:55 AM
This reasonably lays out what is known about 'S' - premium unfortunately
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-isis-supporter-who-allegedly-planned-lone-wolf-attack-in-auckland-could-not-be-charged-as-a-terrorist/63KJAAJO6O3EHUHDHJILE2C3TI/


There is a law change before the select committee I believe to address some of this.

You are right, though, that changes in the law will be seen as draconian by many.
Politicians never win so long as people think they are doing things for the wrong reason.

Again, difficult to say without the full details, bit if a Judge found that preparing a terrorist attack is not a crime then that judge has no business being on the bench. Planning any number of different crimes, is enough on its own to get you jailed.

Bjauck
04-09-2021, 11:56 AM
I don't think we yet know his citizenship status Having arrived here ten years ago as an adult, we know that his citizenship of origin is not NZ. A citizen by grant's citizenship can be cancelled in certain circumstances.

It will be interesting to know where he got radicalised.

Balance
04-09-2021, 12:02 PM
I don't think we know much of anything because there is a suppression order (that the Govt will attempt to get lifted).
That doesn't seem to be stopping a certain rabid individual from commenting.

Balance is so quick to judge on the facts he doesn't know.
Only he could turn this into a political issue.

Watch your Cindy milk this for that she can politically - strong & compassionate leadership blah blah blah

Think she will be wearing the hijab this afternoon when she addresses NZ from the truth (oops … spin & bs) pulpit?

Balance
04-09-2021, 12:03 PM
Again, difficult to say without the full details, bit if a Judge found that preparing a terrorist attack is not a crime then that judge has no business being on the bench. Planning any number of different crimes, is enough on its own to get you jailed.

Read the write up of the judge & it does not fill one with confidence about judicial appointments.

FTG
04-09-2021, 12:46 PM
But we have more with the 1st shot.
A month ago that was Aussie.

I'm afraid you aren't correct on that one Dobby.

Aussie is still clearly ahead of NZ for % of eligible population where just the 1st shot has been administered.

Aussie - 61%
NZ - 57%

What is also concerning is when our PM (the Chief-in-Commander of "the source of truth") says, "sorry sheeple, we have a demand issue, not a supply issue with the vaccine".

Rather bad optics, especially for her!

fungus pudding
04-09-2021, 12:53 PM
Having arrived here ten years ago as an adult, we know that his citizenship of origin is not NZ. A citizen by grant's citizenship can be cancelled in certain circumstances.

It will be interesting to know where he got radicalised.

He's from Ceylon.

Bjauck
04-09-2021, 01:03 PM
He's from Ceylon. He may have got radicalised after his arrival in Aotearoa.

fungus pudding
04-09-2021, 01:09 PM
He may have got radicalised after his arrival in NZ.

Possibly, but more likely he arrived as the finished product.

Bjauck
04-09-2021, 01:20 PM
I'm afraid you aren't correct on that one Dobby.

Aussie is still clearly ahead of NZ for % of eligible population where just the 1st shot has been administered.

Aussie - 61%
NZ - 57%

What is also concerning is when our PM (the Chief-in-Commander of "the source of truth") says, "sorry sheeple, we have a demand issue, not a supply issue with the vaccine".

Rather bad optics, especially for her!

Yep. ScoMo got 4 million Pfizer doses from his fellow right winger mate BoJo. I thought our PM was also trying to source more doses too. It is a pity we were not a party to that deal.

Balance
04-09-2021, 01:25 PM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9955489/Hero-shopper-attacked-New-Zealand-knifeman-pole-battled-save-wounded.html

The headlines sum up the arse-about-face terrorist law of NZ perfectly :

‘ ISIS supporter was let free to rampage as powerless cops watched him 24/7 waiting for him to attack.’

After the CHCh terror massacre in 2019, what has the Labour government been doing to fix NZ’s obviously archaic & ineffectual anti terrorist laws in the last 2.5 years?

Where are the useless turd

police minister Poto ‘I represent South Auckland criminals’ Williams

&

justice minister Kris 'Completely out of his depths & it shows' Faafoi?

WTF have they been doing? Yet another great example of Cindy promising plenty and delivering, in this case critical injuries to 6 NZers.

fungus pudding
04-09-2021, 02:39 PM
Jacinda - wastes no time getting on top of things.

12926

dobby41
04-09-2021, 02:46 PM
Again, difficult to say without the full details, bit if a Judge found that preparing a terrorist attack is not a crime then that judge has no business being on the bench. Planning any number of different crimes, is enough on its own to get you jailed.


Read the write up of the judge & it does not fill one with confidence about judicial appointments.

To both - don't they have to follow the law?

Preparing - thinking - thought crime? I'm not a lawyer and I don't know the law but if the judge says he can't convict then who am I (or you) to say he is wrong?
Whatever - the law needs to change but be prepared for noise about unintended consequences or that it could be used for other things.
Remember the law last year that said police could come into your house to check for a party (under level 4) (don't quote me on the exact law) and people here were saying that police state was next?

dobby41
04-09-2021, 02:51 PM
[url]
After the CHCh terror massacre in 2019, what has the Labour government been doing to fix NZ’s obviously archaic & ineffectual anti terrorist laws in the last 2.5 years?


A change is before the select committee I believe - passed the first reading in May.
I believe, from what I read, that this person and the inability to prosecute for 'planning' an attack (whatever that means) prompted it.

Maybe they should just make new rules on the fly - sort of like a dictatorship could do (or your favoured China - now they know how to fix things)?

Logen Ninefingers
04-09-2021, 03:03 PM
Police are out there arresting people for breaking the COVID curfew without good cause. Shouldn’t they be waiting until these people are either infected or infect someone else(?) Amazing that you can be arrested in NZ for leaving your house for reasons other than exercising or getting food or going to a workplace as an essential worker, but if you are planning a terrorist attack you are apparently doing nothing wrong. That’s what they said on the radio today: it’s not an offence to plan an attack. I wonder if they had uncovered that he was putting together plans to blow up Parliament whether that might be an issue.
When all is said and done, I’d rather take my chances of walking past someone in Taihape who is wearing a mask than confronting an ISIS terrorist who has just sunk a knife between my shoulder blades.

Since this country embraced left wing ideologies wholesale and as a matter of course we have become much less safe and moreover, we have become quite bizarre as a country. We are sadly lacking in good old fashioned common sense.

When an Australian madman came here here and did something horrific suddenly the spotlight was turned on NZ Europeans and the political Right as if that terrorist had been spawned here. Apparently the police were ‘looking in the wrong place’. The ‘ideology of hate’ was apparently something unique to ‘racist’ (white) NZers.

We are still yet to spawn a NZ born & raised terrorist here. Terrorist acts on our soil have been perpetrated by imports.

We’ve been told that police were ‘looking in the wrong place’. I think we need to know how many other Jihadi’s are on the NZ ‘watch list’ and how many ticking time bombs there are out there with police resources traipsing around monitoring them.

dobby41
04-09-2021, 03:10 PM
I'm afraid you aren't correct on that one Dobby.

Aussie is still clearly ahead of NZ for % of eligible population where just the 1st shot has been administered.

Aussie - 61%
NZ - 57%


Of course, we are reporting the % of eligible population 12+ (ie those eligible) whereas Aussie is reporting 16+ even though 12+ are eligible now.
Clever really!

jonu
04-09-2021, 04:24 PM
To both - don't they have to follow the law?

Preparing - thinking - thought crime? I'm not a lawyer and I don't know the law but if the judge says he can't convict then who am I (or you) to say he is wrong?
Whatever - the law needs to change but be prepared for noise about unintended consequences or that it could be used for other things.
Remember the law last year that said police could come into your house to check for a party (under level 4) (don't quote me on the exact law) and people here were saying that police state was next?

So you're saying people are being over the top in decrying the advent of a Police State, while calling for harsher laws, when the problem appears to be the current laws are wrongly implemented.

If the guy is on a charge of assaulting corrections staff, and he is already on 24 hour surveillance, who in their right mind would give him bail on the assault charge?

jonu
04-09-2021, 04:36 PM
This naughty butcher is probably for it. How dare he conduct business in a manner more safe than a supermarket?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/126278346/remuera-butcher-defies-lockdown-rules

But swan about planning a terror attack and well....they'll keep an eye on you.

By the way, I don't blame the police in this. Seems to me they did everything they could, with regard the terrorist, and with the lockdown, sadly they are at the behest of Ardern.

dobby41
04-09-2021, 04:41 PM
So you're saying people are being over the top in decrying the advent of a Police State, while calling for harsher laws, when the problem appears to be the current laws are wrongly implemented.

If the guy is on a charge of assaulting corrections staff, and he is already on 24 hour surveillance, who in their right mind would give him bail on the assault charge?

Not saying that at all.
I'm not aware that in the case of the person yesterday that the current laws have been wrongly implemented.
I'm not a lawyer.
All I see is a lot of people coming to conclusions without adequate facts.
I don't do that in my professional life, my investing, or when on jury service and I won't do that now.

Balance
04-09-2021, 04:45 PM
A change is before the select committee I believe - passed the first reading in May.
I believe, from what I read, that this person and the inability to prosecute for 'planning' an attack (whatever that means) prompted it.

Maybe they should just make new rules on the fly - sort of like a dictatorship could do (or your favoured China - now they know how to fix things)?

The law change is now going to be pushed through Parliament under urgency.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/126285369/auckland-terror-attack-pm-says-new-terror-laws-will-be-passed-this-month

Why now?

Why not in May or June or July or August?

Because this is a reactive government incapable of delivering anything except spin and lots of goodies to the Maoris for their votes.

Another $100m to fix badly tattooed mokos maybe in order?

Balance
04-09-2021, 04:46 PM
Not saying that at all.
I'm not aware that in the case of the person yesterday that the current laws have been wrongly implemented.
I'm not a lawyer.
All I see is a lot of people coming to conclusions without adequate facts.
I don't do that in my professional life, my investing, or when on jury service and I won't do that now.

When the law is an ass, you call it an ass.

Simple.

And read the comments on the judge :

https://www.kiwisfirst.com/judge-file-index/high-court-justice-matthew-downs/

Fills one with confidence, doesn't he?

"One QC summarised Downs best: “What he lacks in goodness he makes up for in confidence.”
Justice Downs’ poor interpersonal skills are likely a reflection of his falling somewhere on the autistic spectrum and his consequent lack of empathy. Other than Crown counsel, few lawyers would choose to appear before him."

jonu
04-09-2021, 05:05 PM
I posted this on the Corona Virus thread but it's just as pertinent here IMHO (yes I do have one....a humble one :D )

Well, well, our government is cultivating a very strange state of affairs.

We have a Minister saying he wants vaccine that is in short supply to be prioritised according to ethnicity and most likely at the expense of border workers who are entering the period when they will need booster shots.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...?ocid=msedgntp

My, my what a web Ardern's mob are weaving. But remember....we don't have a supply problem...we have a demand problem. We got that from the pulpit of truth.

FTG
04-09-2021, 06:32 PM
Of course, we are reporting the % of eligible population 12+ (ie those eligible) whereas Aussie is reporting 16+ even though 12+ are eligible now.
Clever really!

Good spotting!

So to summarise. For the first shot, NZ is actually marginally ahead of Aussie. But for the all important figure of being FULLY vaccinated, Aussie has now pushed even further ahead of NZ.

Balance
04-09-2021, 06:38 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-mall-terrorist-attack-john-battersby-nz-is-no-better-prepared-for-extremism-now-than-on-march-15/VE4BHHHW7ZHGSOTEBHJG4KPTGE/

2.5 years on from the Christchurch massacre, Cindy & her incompetents are just as unprepared now as they were then for a terrorist attack.

That’s what happens when they are too busy cozying up to gangs and criminals, inside or outside of jail, like her ministers love to do.

ynot
04-09-2021, 07:39 PM
[QUOTE

We’ve been told that police were ‘looking in the wrong place’. I think we need to know how many other Jihadi’s are on the NZ ‘watch list’ and how many ticking time bombs there are out there with police resources traipsing around monitoring them.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree. This left govt are behind the 8 ball yet again.
They lack the spine to tackle this issue as we can't been seen to be being discriminatory against any minority group. Must show compassion and kindness to all, even at the expense of our citizens lives .You want to live in our country then live by our rules, or get back to where you came from.

westerly
04-09-2021, 07:46 PM
When the law is an ass, you call it an ass.

Simple.

And read the comments on the judge :

https://www.kiwisfirst.com/judge-file-index/high-court-justice-matthew-downs/

Fills one with confidence, doesn't he?

"One QC summarised Downs best: “What he lacks in goodness he makes up for in confidence.”
Justice Downs’ poor interpersonal skills are likely a reflection of his falling somewhere on the autistic spectrum and his consequent lack of empathy. Other than Crown counsel, few lawyers would choose to appear before him."

The website you link to appears to be a one man operation dedicated to finding fault with the
judiciary, and is hardly a credible site to justify your criticism.
Perhaps you are the ass ?

westerly

iceman
05-09-2021, 07:57 AM
[QUOTE

We’ve been told that police were ‘looking in the wrong place’. I think we need to know how many other Jihadi’s are on the NZ ‘watch list’ and how many ticking time bombs there are out there with police resources traipsing around monitoring them.

Totally agree. This left govt are behind the 8 ball yet again.
They lack the spine to tackle this issue as we can't been seen to be being discriminatory against any minority group. Must show compassion and kindness to all, even at the expense of our citizens lives .You want to live in our country then live by our rules, or get back to where you came from.[/QUOTE]

What I do not understand is that it has reported this idiot came to NZ in 2011 on a student visa. How could he then 2 years later apply for a refugee status and how come our laws are so slack that it takes years to cancel their refugee status and deport them, despite the person being a known serious threat that has been open about his intention to kill Kiwis ? There is something seriously wrong with our laws and it's beyond belief that this has been known for several years but not fixed.

I commend the police for the very quick reaction and good result from their action. They must be very frustrated having to work with laws like this.

ynot
05-09-2021, 08:09 AM
Totally agree. This left govt are behind the 8 ball yet again.
They lack the spine to tackle this issue as we can't been seen to be being discriminatory against any minority group. Must show compassion and kindness to all, even at the expense of our citizens lives .You want to live in our country then live by our rules, or get back to where you came from.

What I do not understand is that it has reported this idiot came to NZ in 2011 on a student visa. How could he then 2 years later apply for a refugee status and how come our laws are so slack that it takes years to cancel their refugee status and deport them, despite the person being a known serious threat that has been open about his intention to kill Kiwis ? There is something seriously wrong with our laws and it's beyond belief that this has been known for several years but not fixed.

I commend the police for the very quick reaction and good result from their action. They must be very frustrated having to work with laws like this.[/QUOTE]

The mindset of this woke government it whats wrong here.
The facts surrounding this individual were obvious but their logic over rode their actions.

"with a view to giving the remaining aspects of his sentence of supervision an opportunity to succeed, and therefore to rehabilitate the defendant"

Bjauck
05-09-2021, 08:57 AM
.
The mindset of this woke government it whats wrong here.
The facts surrounding this individual were obvious but their logic over rode their actions.

"with a view to giving the remaining aspects of his sentence of supervision an opportunity to succeed, and therefore to rehabilitate the defendant"
The government had been trying to remove this person from being a threat. However it is bound by the due process of law. It is the shonky legislation and process that is at fault. It seems that the supposed threat to a deportee in their country of origin has somehow become more of an overriding concern that the threat they pose to people in NZ.

In 2011 this person entered NZ on a study visa. In 2013 they got refugee status despite Immigration NZ opposition. In 2016 the terrorist and their fraud came to the attention of the police and NZSIS. This all occurred under John Key's government.

ynot
05-09-2021, 09:17 AM
The government had been trying to remove this person from being a threat. However it is bound by the due process of law. It is the shonky legislation and process that is at fault. It seems that the supposed threat to a deportee in their country of origin has somehow become more of an overriding concern that the threat they pose to people in NZ.

In 2011 this person entered NZ on a study visa. In 2013 they got refugee status despite Immigration NZ opposition. In 2016 the terrorist and their fraud came to the attention of the police and NZSIS. This all occurred under John Key's government.
Labour have been in power for years. Plenty of time to sort this out had they had the guts.
"KINDNESS BLINDNESS"

Getty
05-09-2021, 09:37 AM
No doubt the lawyers who milked the cash cow terrorist for all it was worth over the last 5 years, all at the expense of NZ taxpayers, will be sleeping well for what they achieved for justice and humanity?.

artemis
05-09-2021, 10:58 AM
Labour have been in power for years. Plenty of time to sort this out had they had the guts.
"KINDNESS BLINDNESS"

Absolute majority for nearly a year. Sounds like a lot of process (ie talk), not very urgent then.

Logen Ninefingers
05-09-2021, 11:08 AM
When the Sri Lankan man wanted to go to Syria, why didn’t we let him? Apparently it’s not an offence here to plan a terrorist act, so whatever he plans and gets up to in Syria is his own business. Let Sri Lanka and Syria sort it out between them. Until he picked up a gun or knife in Syria he was apparently doing nothing wrong.

We are living in a mad house here. We’ll stop a Sri Lankan man from going to Syria to fight for ISIS, and then we’ll allow him to roam about in the NZ community where he can wreak bloody havoc in NZers.

How many genuine refugees are willing to quit their place of refuge at the drop of a hat to go fight for ISIS in some part of the world? If an NZ judge can’t see something which is as plain as the nose in your face then they shouldn’t be a judge - it’s that simple.

I’ve read today that authorities did nothing about detaining this man under mental health laws. We had a very disturbed individual who had apparently been tortured in Sri Lanka and who was watching sick videos of ISIS killings - including burnings and decapitations - and it never occurred to the authorities that he might have had a screw loose and require extensive physciatric evaluation. We’ve been failed again by the same weakness and incompetence which we’ve seen time and time again.

Logen Ninefingers
05-09-2021, 11:15 AM
Adern again using the phrase ‘forgive me’ over and over again when taking to journalists at a press conference. She first used the phrase after the outbreak in Auckland on at least 3 occasions at one press conference (“forgive me, let me get that information for you”), and then again at the stand up with Coster after the terrorist rampage.

Would not be surprised if this communications expert with her army of spin doctors is using these press conferences to seed that message into the public consciousness i.e. forgive her for her governments failures, flush the dunny, & continue the adoration.

Logen Ninefingers
05-09-2021, 11:59 AM
If this guy was in NZ as a refugee - he was granted refugee status in 2013 - because he was in danger from the Sri Lankan authorities....then what on earth was he doing back in Sri Lanka in 2016?!?!?!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-mall-terrorist-brainwashed-by-neighbours-mother-says/EGAEPSDS46WPEATPEO5NP6PEWA/

‘His mother, Ismail Fareeda, has told a TV channel in Sri Lanka that neighbours from Syria and Iraq radicalised Aathil Samsudeen when he was injured in a fall in Sri Lanka in 2016’

jonu
05-09-2021, 12:12 PM
If this guy was in NZ as a refugee - he was granted refugee status in 2013 - because he was in danger from the Sri Lankan authorities....then what on earth was he doing back in Sri Lanka in 2016?!?!?!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-mall-terrorist-brainwashed-by-neighbours-mother-says/EGAEPSDS46WPEATPEO5NP6PEWA/

‘His mother, Ismail Fareeda, has told a TV channel in Sri Lanka that neighbours from Syria and Iraq radicalised Aathil Samsudeen when he was injured in a fall in Sri Lanka in 2016’

I share a number of your concerns Logen....but for your own well being....take a break. Get outside if you can and enjoy the day. This BS will still be here to address after you have refreshed yourself.

Blue Skies
05-09-2021, 12:36 PM
Labour have been in power for years. Plenty of time to sort this out had they had the guts.
"KINDNESS BLINDNESS"



Reading some of the posts here, you would think it is so simple.
Understandable responses to an appallingly brutal act, but just think worth raising a few points before we rush, as some are, to angrily condemn the Police & the PM & the govt & Judith Collins & anybody else.

Writing into law, statutes which capture someone for their thoughts of doing something illegal but hasn't actually done anything ( & remember this guy had no plan, no co-conspirators) and doesn't capture or round up a whole bunch of basically innocent citizens who might think of doing some minor transgression or prank & then change their mind & not do anything, is not as simple as it sounds!

In the rush to write new terrorist laws after this attack, we will be granting the State considerable new powers over citizens, basically the right to prosecute & throw someone in jail for their thoughts (even before they've done anything).

What about the deeply disturbed or mentally ill person having irrational thoughts but actually needs help.

Also it's well recognised some sick individuals crave the attention & infamy being tried under terrorist laws would bring them, giving some lowlife nobody a huge platform & newfound reach to preach their sick views. (That's why the PM & others will never mention the name of the CHC individual ). This being a big downside of new laws.

Then there's the sentencing problem, how do you write sentencing guidelines i.e. how long a prison sentence for this thought compared to that thought.

I think possibly this is why even Judith Collins as Justice Minister removed a review of counter-terrorsim laws from the Law Commissions work program in 2013.

I think this guy should/could have been held under the existing Mental Health Act, but for some reason wasn't.
Having been granted Refugee status way back, it was incredibly hard for Immigration to get rid of him & kick him out of the country.

New laws will be rushed through now (which I thoroughly agree with) as there is the political will from both sides of the House, no party wants to be seen to be soft after this brutal tragedy, but its not a simple as it sounds, and there will be resistance from those concerned about infringements of civil rights, and growth of state control (another reasons why its taken so long).

Bjauck
05-09-2021, 01:32 PM
Labour have been in power for years. Plenty of time to sort this out had they had the guts.
"KINDNESS BLINDNESS"
John Key was happy to ignore and sweep so many issues under the carpet for his lengthy term office. Why would reform in this area be any different?
"LAISSEZ-FAIRE; DON'T CARE"?

dobby41
05-09-2021, 03:00 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300399152/watch-live-auckland-supermarket-stabbings-a-terror-attack-prime-minister-says

Terror attacked in Auckland mall.

Let’s be kind and allow back in more terrorists.



You shoot from the hip so often.
So it must have been National 'being kind' who let this dude in.
He was already an issue in 2016 under National.

But this isn't a political issue no matter how sick-minded, blinded, individuals might like to portray it.

Not that we have a better idea of the timeline and issues so much is clearer.

winner69
05-09-2021, 05:01 PM
Easy peasy getting extra vaccine

Just make a few calls


https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/half-a-million-pfizer-vaccines-on-their-way-from-heathrow-for-australian-arms-20210904-p58ouo.html

Bjauck
05-09-2021, 05:28 PM
Easy peasy getting extra vaccine

Just make a few calls


https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/half-a-million-pfizer-vaccines-on-their-way-from-heathrow-for-australian-arms-20210904-p58ouo.html
The benefit of having a friendly allied government’s ear? Brandis, The Australian High Commissioner in London, should get a New Year’s honour.

I see that Brandis studied at Magdalene College, Oxford. Brandis was.also a senior politician in the right wing Liberal Party. Right wing Boris Johnson also studied at Oxford. Old boy type of familiarity at play?

I have tried unsuccessfully to see what links the current NZ High Commissioner - Bede Corey - had with the UK prior to his recent appointment.

iceman
05-09-2021, 10:00 PM
The government had been trying to remove this person from being a threat. However it is bound by the due process of law. It is the shonky legislation and process that is at fault. It seems that the supposed threat to a deportee in their country of origin has somehow become more of an overriding concern that the threat they pose to people in NZ.

In 2011 this person entered NZ on a study visa. In 2013 they got refugee status despite Immigration NZ opposition. In 2016 the terrorist and their fraud came to the attention of the police and NZSIS. This all occurred under John Key's government.

"Bound by the due process of law", this is a Government that is driving all sorts of ideological law changes through parliament under urgency. I don't buy the BS that they couldn't have done it and neither does the writer of the below epistle that in my view provides food for thought:

"Chronicles of Clive - Ardern Fails Once Again

Today Ardern announced to New Zealanders that the Crown and the Police did everything they could to lock the New Lynn Countdown Isis terrorist up but the law prevented this.
She then went on to say that the High Court refused to convict and imprison him on planning a terrorist attack. What she didn’t say however was that the High Court Judge who made that decision was so concerned that the law was inadequate (because planning a terrorist attack was not an offence in New Zealand and wouldn’t allow him to imprison this man) that in a rare move he requested High Court staff to send his judgment to the Attorney General, the Solicitor General and the Law Commission with this advice.
That was in July 2020.

The Judge went so far as to specifically warn government that the lack of adequate legislation meant that there was a serious threat to public safety from “lone wolf” attacks particularly since the Christchurch terror attack. He said parliament needed to create the offence as the courts did not have the power to do this. And what is so sadly ironic is that his specific warning to government which related to a specific defendant before him was exactly what this same man did.
The warning was given to government over 13 months ago and yet as we are now getting so used to, this Ardern led government is just too slow at doing anything unless it suits their specific political agenda.

Yes they will make excuse after excuse about how long it takes to get legislation drafted and into law but in this case those excuses are total rubbish. This is a simple addition to current law that could have been made in a month and moved into law under urgency. Proof of this is the fact it took them less than a month to change the Firearms laws after the Christchurch terror attack. Australia and the UK already have this “planning a terrorist act”legislation and New Zealand could simply have adopted their wording.

Labour had the numbers to do it alone even though there would be no objection from National and Act for tougher terrorist laws. Further Ardern’s latest excuse that this legislation could not be exercised retrospectively is also irrelevant as the Police and SIS’s belief that this man was planning a terrorist action had not gone away and they would have been perfectly able to lay new charges if the law was in place. Instead, because the government was so slow at getting the law changed, Police had some 30 officers involved in surveillance on him. This is absolutely absurd they had to do this because the required law change had not been made. Having 30 Police involved in watching this man 24/7 meant they totally believed he was planning a terrorist act.

Make your own judgment. It is very clear to me."

Joshuatree
05-09-2021, 10:56 PM
Slice and dice all want bud,keep on spinning,keep judging,keep looking for blame.Pretty offensive .This is far from simple and the right decisions will be made .Planning a terror attack is not an offense ,neither is hate speech yet.Legislative changes under consideration with submissions from the public have been slowed by something called covid of which this country is the envy of the world.Look for the good in things and you will find the good in yourself.

artemis
06-09-2021, 05:53 AM
Slice and dice all want bud,keep on spinning,keep judging,keep looking for blame.Pretty offensive .This is far from simple and the right decisions will be made .Planning a terror attack is not an offense ,neither is hate speech yet.Legislative changes under consideration with submissions from the public have been slowed by something called covid of which this country is the envy of the world.Look for the good in things and you will find the good in yourself.

Spinning by citizen 'bud' is one thing. Spinning by the lawmakers and leaders of New Zealand is quite another. In each case a judgement can be made as to what is spin or not, but my sense is there is a growing disquiet that our leaders are indeed spinning, or worse.

Logen Ninefingers
06-09-2021, 09:04 AM
Slice and dice all want bud,keep on spinning,keep judging,keep looking for blame.Pretty offensive .This is far from simple and the right decisions will be made .Planning a terror attack is not an offense ,neither is hate speech yet.Legislative changes under consideration with submissions from the public have been slowed by something called covid of which this country is the envy of the world.Look for the good in things and you will find the good in yourself.

Planning a terror attack is not an offense

That's totally ducked up, isn't it. BTW, there is a world of difference between planning a terrorist attack (likely to be a massacre) & 'hate speech'. One involves harm or loss of life to humans, the other is highly subjective.

--------

Why was he not stopped from getting on a plane to Samoa, but was stopped from getting on a plane to Syria? No rhyme nor reason....

---------

By stopping this man from going to Syria, our authorities made it a virtual certainty that this man would take out his muderous intentions on NZ citizens.

----------

After seeing Grant Robertson be totally dismissive of questions regarding the terrorists mothers assertions that this man was radicalised by Syrian and Iraqi neighbours, and having seem the authorities failure to keep NZers safe from another terrorist - one who was identified years ago - I have absolutely no faith at all that the authorities will keep us safe from further terror attacks. The only thing they are capable of doing - and it is par for the course with this government - is reacting after somthing terrible happens. If a Syrian or Iraqi radical commits an atrocity, I am sure Robertson or Ardern will say "we are acting swiftly to ensure this never, ever happens again" but as usual it will be too late.

dobby41
06-09-2021, 09:13 AM
Planning a terror attack is not an offense

That's totally ducked up, isn't it. BTW, there is a world of difference between planning a terrorist attack (likely to be a massacre) & 'hate speech'. One involves harm or loss of life to humans, the other is highly subjective.
Will be an offense when the law is changed this month - set in motion earlier this year.
Select committee asked to speed things up before this attack.

--------


Why was he not stopped from getting on a plane to Samoa, but was stopped from getting on a plane to Syria? No rhyme nor reason....

---------

By stopping this man from going to Syria, our authorities made it a virtual certainty that this man would take out his muderous intentions on NZ citizens.
Going on holiday to Samoa is different from going to Syria to fight with ISIS.
There was a lot of debate at the time over this sort of thing and this view was part of the debate.
Personally, I think they should have let him go then not let him back if he wasn't killed over there.

----------


After seeing Grant Robertson be totally dismissive of questions regarding the terrorists mothers assertions that this man was radicalised by Syrian and Iraqi neighbours, and having seem the authorities failure to keep NZers safe from another terrorist - one who was identified years ago - I have absolutely no faith at all that the authorities will keep us safe from further terror attacks. The only thing they are capable of doing - and it is par for the course with this government - is reacting after somthing terrible happens. If a Syrian or Iraqi radical commits an atrocity, I am sure Robertson or Ardern will say "we are acting swiftly to ensure this never, ever happens again" but as usual it will be too late.

He said he had no evidence - other than what the mother said.
You may want a kneejerk reation to this but be careful what you ask for.

iceman
06-09-2021, 09:30 AM
Will be an offense when the law is changed this month - set in motion earlier this year.
Select committee asked to speed things up before this attack.

--------


Going on holiday to Samoa is different from going to Syria to fight with ISIS.
There was a lot of debate at the time over this sort of thing and this view was part of the debate.
Personally, I think they should have let him go then not let him back if he wasn't killed over there.

----------



He said he had no evidence - other than what the mother said.
You may want a kneejerk reation to this but be careful what you ask for.

Once again this Government just lies to us and make it up on the go. Has anyone actually asked why this idiot even had a "refugee" status while the rest of his family seems to be living a normal life in Sri Lanka. Or are we not allowed to ask such questions ? By all accounts it appears his family expected something like this to happen and so did our authorities.

You ignore the fact that the Judge that dealt with his case was so concerned that he sent his judgement to the AG and Solicitor General to make them aware of his concerns and the urgency required.

Logen Ninefingers
06-09-2021, 09:42 AM
Will be an offense when the law is changed this month - set in motion earlier this year.
Select committee asked to speed things up before this attack.

--------


Going on holiday to Samoa is different from going to Syria to fight with ISIS.
There was a lot of debate at the time over this sort of thing and this view was part of the debate.
Personally, I think they should have let him go then not let him back if he wasn't killed over there.

----------



He said he had no evidence - other than what the mother said.
You may want a kneejerk reation to this but be careful what you ask for.

He said he had no evidence - other than what the mother said.

So go and check if what she has said has any validity, rather than repeatedly state that it is what he did on-line that is what brought him to police attention.
It's just answering a valid question by talking about something completely different.
For example, someone could be radicalised by associates who then refer him to on-line sources of 'information' where he can futher 'educate' himself.
But of course for political reasons are verboten to say / think that there may be other with similar views who associated with him.
But it's not 'kneejerk' if the terrorists own mother is the one who made these claims!!

Joshuatree
06-09-2021, 09:43 AM
Once again this Government just lies to us and make it up on the go. Has anyone actually asked why this idiot even had a "refugee" status while the rest of his family seems to be living a normal life in Sri Lanka. Or are we not allowed to ask such questions ? By all accounts it appears his family expected something like this to happen and so did our authorities.

You ignore the fact that the Judge that dealt with his case was so concerned that he sent his judgement to the AG and Solicitor General to make them aware of his concerns and the urgency required.

I agree the system is broke and the independent review is what I will take note of.Blaming Govt is dumb you're just using this tragedy to drive some sort of agenda ,prob against our leader,I suggest you wean yourself off some social media sites.

dobby41
06-09-2021, 09:52 AM
Once again this Government just lies to us and make it up on the go. Has anyone actually asked why this idiot even had a "refugee" status while the rest of his family seems to be living a normal life in Sri Lanka. Or are we not allowed to ask such questions ? By all accounts it appears his family expected something like this to happen and so did our authorities.

You ignore the fact that the Judge that dealt with his case was so concerned that he sent his judgement to the AG and Solicitor General to make them aware of his concerns and the urgency required.

I think it was asked.
Immigration didn't want to give it to him but the appeal board (wrong name but what they do) gave it to him.
This was under Key and National.
He got refugee state well prior to what his mother alledges (in how he was radicalised).

The current law change has come as a direct result of not being able to charge him for intent.
You seem to be ignoring the timeline.

iceman
06-09-2021, 09:54 AM
I agree the system is broke and the independent review is what I will take note of.Blaming Govt is dumb you're just using this tragedy to drive some sort of agenda ,prob against our leader,I suggest you wean yourself off some social media sites.

Not surprised to see such rubbish from you. One can not help but wonder whether you're a paid Labour stooge ? In one of your recent posts you said NZ has had the best response to COVID. Obviously that is just your view. My view is the opposite and I think we have badly managed the COVID response this year and we seem to have no idea how to deal with it other than continuously locking down the country. Contrary to what is being banged on about by the PM, much of the western world is far ahead of us and getting much closer to living the new normal. Just look at Europe with 70% of it's population vaccinated, Norway, Denmark, Sweden & Iceland all opening up and getting rid of most restrictions. WHat do we do ? One case and we shut down the whole country.

dobby41
06-09-2021, 09:59 AM
So go and check if what she has said has any validity, rather than repeatedly state that it is what he did on-line that is what brought him to police attention.
It's just answering a valid question by talking about something completely different.
For example, someone could be radicalised by associates who then refer him to on-line sources of 'information' where he can futher 'educate' himself.
But of course for political reasons are verboten to say / think that there may be other with similar views who associated with him.
But it's not 'kneejerk' if the terrorists own mother is the one who made these claims!!
How he was radicalised, I expect, will be probed if it hasn't already by the police.
I wouldn't expect Robinson to be doing that himself.
If there are others with similar views to him I suspect they would already be being watched.
Because you don't hear anything about ongoing police investigations and surveillance doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Making a law change without due consideration is kneejerk.
The Immigration Act needs to be looked at - they couldn't lock him up while he was appealing his loss of status.
Of course, that could affect a lot of people if the change isn't careful.

dobby41
06-09-2021, 10:01 AM
One case and we **** down the whole country.

But we didn't have just one case - are you blind?
Look at how this is playing out so far between NSW and here.
They 'only' had 3 deaths yesterday and consider that a good day.

ynot
06-09-2021, 10:05 AM
Not surprised to see such rubbish from you. One can not help but wonder whether you're a paid Labour stooge ? In one of your recent posts you said NZ has had the best response to COVID. Obviously that is just your view. My view is the opposite and I think we have badly managed the COVID response this year and we seem to have no idea how to deal with it other than continuously locking down the country. Contrary to what is being banged on about the PM, much of the western world is far ahead of us and getting much closer to living the new normal. Just look at Europe with 70% of it's population vaccinated, Norway, Denmark, Sweden & Iceland all opening up and getting rid of most restrictions. WHat do we do ? One case and we **** down the whole country.

Waste of energy engaging with the woke brigade. If some of the lefty's here are not residing on the 9th floor they should be.

iceman
06-09-2021, 10:09 AM
But we didn't have just one case - are you blind?
Look at how this is playing out so far between NSW and here.
They 'only' had 3 deaths yesterday and consider that a good day.

You're right. We haven't even had one case in the SI, yet have been shut down for 3 weeks. Are you blind ? I agreed with the original shutdown while figuring out what was going on and trying to reduce the spread, but to continue it for 3 weeks AND slowing down vaccinations, is ridiculous and shows how utterly incompetent the government is

Balance
06-09-2021, 10:15 AM
Once again this Government just lies to us and make it up on the go. Has anyone actually asked why this idiot even had a "refugee" status while the rest of his family seems to be living a normal life in Sri Lanka. Or are we not allowed to ask such questions ? By all accounts it appears his family expected something like this to happen and so did our authorities.

You ignore the fact that the Judge that dealt with his case was so concerned that he sent his judgement to the AG and Solicitor General to make them aware of his concerns and the urgency required.

This government will and has not hesitated to use urgency to pass legislation when it suits its agenda :

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/whats-the-rush-lawmaking-in-a-hurry

Excerpt : " .....the passage of the Local Electoral (Māori Wards and Māori Constituencies) Amendment Bill under urgency.

The bill was referred to the select committee with just two days for the public to make their submissions, with the whole select committee process lasting six days. The usual time given to a committee to report back on a bill is about six months.

While the Government says the use of urgency is to ensure the bill passes in time for the 2022 local body election, the Opposition says the bill is being rushed through for “solely political purposes”."

Cindy's government is so blatantly racist that it priorities favors to the Maoris to secure their votes as more important than protecting NZers from terrorists. Cindy confirmed she was and is aware of the Sri Lankan terrorist, and al the spin coming out now is why it is all too difficult to take action!!!!

jonu
06-09-2021, 10:37 AM
This government will and has not hesitated to use urgency to pass legislation when it suits its agenda :

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/whats-the-rush-lawmaking-in-a-hurry

Excerpt : " .....the passage of the Local Electoral (Māori Wards and Māori Constituencies) Amendment Bill under urgency.

The bill was referred to the select committee with just two days for the public to make their submissions, with the whole select committee process lasting six days. The usual time given to a committee to report back on a bill is about six months.

While the Government says the use of urgency is to ensure the bill passes in time for the 2022 local body election, the Opposition says the bill is being rushed through for “solely political purposes”."

Cindy's government is so blatantly racist that it priorities favors to the Maoris to secure their votes as more important than protecting NZers from terrorists. Cindy confirmed she was and is aware of the Sri Lankan terrorist, and al the spin coming out now is why it is all too difficult to take action!!!!

Yes, just goes to show how quickly they can move when they are motivated. It's just a shame the motivations are so corrupt!

Balance
06-09-2021, 10:37 AM
Waste of energy engaging with the woke brigade. If some of the lefty's here are not residing on the 9th floor they should be.

It's ok - we know they are part of Cindy's army of spin merchants (some paid by taxpayers) to try and stamp out uncomfortable truths about just how bad this government of all spin & no delivery is.

There are many reading this thread who are coming to that conclusion - when they read the rapidly unravelling spin from Cindy.

Logen Ninefingers
06-09-2021, 10:42 AM
This government will and has not hesitated to use urgency to pass legislation when it suits its agenda :

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/whats-the-rush-lawmaking-in-a-hurry

Excerpt : " .....the passage of the Local Electoral (Māori Wards and Māori Constituencies) Amendment Bill under urgency.

The bill was referred to the select committee with just two days for the public to make their submissions, with the whole select committee process lasting six days. The usual time given to a committee to report back on a bill is about six months.

While the Government says the use of urgency is to ensure the bill passes in time for the 2022 local body election, the Opposition says the bill is being rushed through for “solely political purposes”."

Cindy's government is so blatantly racist that it priorities favors to the Maoris to secure their votes as more important than protecting NZers from terrorists. Cindy confirmed she was and is aware of the Sri Lankan terrorist, and al the spin coming out now is why it is all too difficult to take action!!!!

We now have television ads for '3 Waters' which are broadcast completely in Maori. Why(?) What is about '3 Waters' that means that it is selected for that when broadcasts about other government agencies are not?

BTW, the only time you will hear about '3 Waters' is up to the point when our deceitful government gets all of this across the line. Thereafter all you will hear about is 'Taumata Arowai' which presumably will be the 'co-governance' vehicle going forward.


https://www.taumataarowai.govt.nz/

jonu
06-09-2021, 10:56 AM
We now have television ads for '3 Waters' which are broadcast completely in Maori. Why(?) What is about '3 Waters' that means that it is selected for that when broadcasts about other government agencies are not?

BTW, the only time you will hear about '3 Waters' is up to the point when our deceitful government gets all of this across the line. Thereafter all you will hear about is 'Taumata Arowai' which presumably will be the 'co-governance' vehicle going forward.


https://www.taumataarowai.govt.nz/

No mention on that website of the extra regulatory costs small suppliers are going to be lumbered with. It has got disaster written all over it. More bureaucracy and empire building will result with little to no impact on the "problem" they are trying to fix.

westerly
06-09-2021, 11:38 AM
Not surprised to see such rubbish from you. One can not help but wonder whether you're a paid Labour stooge ? In one of your recent posts you said NZ has had the best response to COVID. Obviously that is just your view. My view is the opposite and I think we have badly managed the COVID response this year and we seem to have no idea how to deal with it other than continuously locking down the country. Contrary to what is being banged on about by the PM, much of the western world is far ahead of us and getting much closer to living the new normal. Just look at Europe with 70% of it's population vaccinated, Norway, Denmark, Sweden & Iceland all opening up and getting rid of most restrictions. WHat do we do ? One case and we shut down the whole country.

One can also wonder who is paying you? I do not agree with all this Govt. is doing but believe National with Judith and Act with Mr Bean would have had us in a similar or worse position than Australia.

westerly

Bjauck
06-09-2021, 11:59 AM
Possibly, but more likely he arrived as the finished product. Unfortunately he may have become radicalised in 2016 when he was in NZ, according to his family in Sri Lanka.

So it beggars belief that this person, who despite Immigration NZ advice, was able to get refugee status after his arrival on a student visa, and was then able to keep it even after authorities were well aware of his activities.

Does it indicate a broken refugee monitoring system, a broken process and a non-coping preoccupied government?

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/auckland-terrorists-mother-believes-he-radicalised-neighbours

dobby41
06-09-2021, 12:23 PM
You're right. We haven't even had one case in the SI, yet have been shut down for 3 weeks. Are you blind ? I agreed with the original shutdown while figuring out what was going on and trying to reduce the spread, but to continue it for 3 weeks AND slowing down vaccinations, is ridiculous and shows how utterly incompetent the government is

So there shouldn't have been a lockdown at all in the South Island?
Because you knew that with all the contacts in the South Island that none would prove positive?
Today we will see if we go to a lower level at all.

Vaccinations have sped up, not slowed down.

Logen Ninefingers
06-09-2021, 12:28 PM
After the latest terror attack in NZ can we now expect 'Patrick Gower: On Hate Part Two'?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/patrick-gower-on-hate-review-a-powerful-watch-that-puts-the-muslim-community-at-the-centre/4AKBAPZ6QVMN7F524JFN3FZXSA/

Patrick Gower: On Hate's strengths lie in the incredible talent he got to speak on camera - seven people whose lives were irrevocably turned upside down by the acts of someone whose hatred seems impossible to comprehend. The human cost of white supremacy is what is mostly front and centre - as it should be for this kind of documentary to be effective.

Logen Ninefingers
06-09-2021, 12:32 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300400495/supermarket-terrorist-made-disturbing-internet-searches-after-buying-knife

Supermarket terrorist made disturbing internet searches after buying knife
Edward Gay
12:12, Sep 06 2021

The Isis-inspired terrorist who stabbed six people at an Auckland supermarket searched online for “safety and security guidelines for lone wolf mujahedeen”, just days after buying a hunting knife.

The searches were revealed in a court document relating to Ahamed Aathill Mohamed Samsudeen and released on Monday.

The judgment, from Justice Geoffrey Venning, shows in 2018 Samsudeen and a friend visited Target Shooter in East Tamaki in August 2018.

He asked to look at a 25cm hunting knife displayed in a shop cabinet. Samsudeen checked the blade before placing the knife in its sheath and handing it back to the shopkeeper. He said he would buy the $39 knife but asked if it could be couriered to his home.

In the days following his purchase, Samsudeen made a series of internet searches including “Islamic state dress”; “Enemies of Allah”; “Isis allegiance”; and “Heroes of the Islamic state”.

He also searched for: “Safety and security guidelines for lone wolf mujahedeen”.

Samsudeen also looked at a number of video clips online, some of which provided “instruction on the use of the knife and footage of attempted decapitation using a hunting knife”.

iceman
06-09-2021, 01:33 PM
So there shouldn't have been a lockdown at all in the South Island?
Because you knew that with all the contacts in the South Island that none would prove positive?
Today we will see if we go to a lower level at all.

Vaccinations have sped up, not slowed down.

The answer to your question is clearly worded in my post that you were responding to !!!

dobby41
06-09-2021, 01:39 PM
The answer to your question is clearly worded in my post that you were responding to !!!

How many weeks should it have been for then?
You weren't clear on that.
How many weeks would you give it for positive cases to eventuate in a Level 4 environment?
After that what should the level setting be - what would you have them be?

My opinion - 2 weeks L4 was sensible.
A further week in L3 to be sure (it is much more than L4 + takeaways).
So now they should go to L2 at least.

dobby41
06-09-2021, 01:44 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300400495/supermarket-terrorist-made-disturbing-internet-searches-after-buying-knife


I hope you are reading that right after yesterday determining that he had gone back to Sri Lanka in 2016.

I'm not sure what your point is though - most of us can read for ourselves.

iceman
06-09-2021, 02:01 PM
How many weeks should it have been for then?
You weren't clear on that.
How many weeks would you give it for positive cases to eventuate in a Level 4 environment?
After that what should the level setting be - what would you have them be?

My opinion - 2 weeks L4 was sensible.
A further week in L3 to be sure (it is much more than L4 + takeaways).
So now they should go to L2 at least.

I think L4 for 2 weeks was the right call. But then we should have gone to L2. L3 is unworkable

Balance
06-09-2021, 02:08 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/covid-19/450850/foreign-media-misinformation-pushes-saint-jacinda-from-her-pedestal

The spin effect only lasts so long.

You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but Cindy, you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.

"Front of the queue to back of the queue."

"10,000 new homes under Kiwibuild to solve housing crisis." It's now a housing disaster.

"You are not one of us." Oops - one of us, a refugee terrorist under surveillance, is indeed one of us?

Logen Ninefingers
06-09-2021, 02:33 PM
I hope you are reading that right after yesterday determining that he had gone back to Sri Lanka in 2016.

I'm not sure what your point is though - most of us can read for ourselves.

Wel what do you make of the below quote? You think the fall occurred in NZ(?)

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckla...ATPEO5NP6PEWA/

‘His mother, Ismail Fareeda, has told a TV channel in Sri Lanka that neighbours from Syria and Iraq radicalised Aathil Samsudeen when he was injured in a fall in Sri Lanka in 2016’

dobby41
06-09-2021, 03:00 PM
Wel what do you make of the below quote? You think the fall occurred in NZ(?)

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckla...ATPEO5NP6PEWA/

‘His mother, Ismail Fareeda, has told a TV channel in Sri Lanka that neighbours from Syria and Iraq radicalised Aathil Samsudeen when he was injured in a fall in Sri Lanka in 2016’

She is in Sri Lanka.
He is in NZ.
His neighbours (in NZ) are from Syria and Iraq.

You interpreted it based on your cognitive bias - something must be wrong, the Govt must be lying and you had found it.

Logen Ninefingers
06-09-2021, 03:24 PM
She is in Sri Lanka.
He is in NZ.
His neighbours (in NZ) are from Syria and Iraq.

You interpreted it based on your cognitive bias - something must be wrong, the Govt must be lying and you had found it.

when he was injured in a fall in Sri Lanka in 2016

I interpret a sentence based on the standard conventions of the English language, and not according to a cognitive bias.

Logen Ninefingers
06-09-2021, 03:41 PM
Interesting the things this guy was up to, over and above his terrorism related activities were acts of common criminality.

https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/assets/R-v-S/20180919-2018-NZHC-2465.pdf

Bjauck
06-09-2021, 03:59 PM
when he was injured in a fall in Sri Lanka in 2016

I interpret a sentence based on the standard conventions of the English language, and not according to a cognitive bias.



"She said Samsudeen was injured in a fall in 2016 and that the neighbours, whom she did not name, seized the opportunity to influence him, adding they “were the only people who helped him as he recovered”.


“Those neighbours from Syria and Iraq are the ones who brainwashed him,” she said, adding her son had started posting radical views on social media after meeting the neighbours.
“We knew there was a change in him. The change came after he left the country” and settled in New Zealand in 2011, she said."
https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/australasia/article/3147611/new-zealand-knife-attacker-brainwashed-radical-neighbours

His mother, Mohamedismail Fareetha, said his descent into extremism began after he fell several stories in 2016 while attending university.
“Because he did not have anyone there, it was people from Syria and Iraq who helped him. It looks like they brainwashed him. Then he started posting on Facebook," Fareetha said in a phone interview Saturday with a local TV station from her home in eastern Sri Lanka.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/300400045/new-zealand-attacker-radicalised-by-neighbours-mother-says

NZ must face up to the fact that it seems radicalisation happened in NZ - and under the gaze of NZ authorities.

dobby41
06-09-2021, 03:59 PM
when he was injured in a fall in Sri Lanka in 2016

I interpret a sentence based on the standard conventions of the English language, and not according to a cognitive bias.

And still, you were wrong.

BDL
06-09-2021, 04:42 PM
So who are these neighbours? Are they a problem too?

dobby41
06-09-2021, 04:51 PM
So who are these neighbours? Are they a problem too?

Are they real?
If they are then I'm sure that the authorities have them on their radar.

fungus pudding
06-09-2021, 05:17 PM
https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/09/the-bribing-of-the-new-zealand-media/

Bjauck
06-09-2021, 05:41 PM
https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/09/the-bribing-of-the-new-zealand-media/ Yep. NZ needs a public broadcaster -along the lines of the BBC, ABC and CBC, and then the government would not have to pay for other media to produce the occasional minority interest item.

I seem to remember the media gave Max Key, the cheeky young planker, screeds of feel good column space as a humanising factor for the Key first family.

Balance
06-09-2021, 07:44 PM
https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/09/the-bribing-of-the-new-zealand-media/

Disgusting woman and a media which has sold its soul in NZ for $$$$.

iceman
07-09-2021, 07:23 AM
Posted this on the coronavirus thread but I suppose it equally belongs here,

Just listened to Hipkins on the radio. He all but confirmed the Government has done a multi country deal to ensure continuous vaccine delivery. But of course he didn't fully confirm it so no doubt it will be announced from the pulpit of truth at 1 PM. Hopefully it will be a good announcement and good to see the Government finally reacting to immense pressure and disappointment with their suggestion they'd need to "reduce demand" !!

dobby41
07-09-2021, 08:14 AM
Posted this on the coronavirus thread but I suppose it equally belongs here,

Just listened to Hipkins on the radio. He all but confirmed the Government has done a multi country deal to ensure continuous vaccine delivery. But of course he didn't fully confirm it so no doubt it will be announced from the pulpit of truth at 1 PM. Hopefully it will be a good announcement and good to see the Government finally reacting to immense pressure and disappointment with their suggestion they'd need to "reduce demand" !!

And I thought that, at the time they said we might run out, they also said that they were working on ways to get more vaccine in time?
It wasn't pressure they reacted to - it was the situation they found themselves in.
But, hey, if your version works for you go with it - it's the outcome that counts most.

fungus pudding
07-09-2021, 08:43 AM
It wasn't pressure they reacted to - it was the situation they found themselves in.


Translation - it was the situation they put themselves in.

iceman
07-09-2021, 08:43 AM
And I thought that, at the time they said we might run out, they also said that they were working on ways to get more vaccine in time?
It wasn't pressure they reacted to - it was the situation they found themselves in.
But, hey, if your version works for you go with it - it's the outcome that counts most.

I was actually commending the Government for finally getting this done but you obviously wake up with your blinkers on. They have been under immense pressure from various media on this issue. That is just a fact as you surely have seen by reading, listening to or watching media in the last couple of weeks.

dobby41
07-09-2021, 11:24 AM
I was actually commending the Government for finally getting this done but you obviously wake up with your blinkers on. They have been under immense pressure from various media on this issue. That is just a fact as you surely have seen by reading, listening to or watching media in the last couple of weeks.

They were under pressure, and should be, but they were already working on it.
You did say (my emphasis) "good to see the Government finally reacting to immense pressure "

dobby41
07-09-2021, 11:25 AM
Translation - it was the situation they put themselves in.

Yes - they allowed it to happen.
They could have restricted supply to stick to the plan.

Balance
07-09-2021, 11:45 AM
Yes - they allowed it to happen.
They could have restricted supply to stick to the plan.

Which plan? The original one or revised one?

From front of the queue to last in the queue plan?

Joshuatree
07-09-2021, 12:02 PM
Who is amy brookes? She is spinning like many media here are ,Hoskins,Dupleases, Newstalk ZB(openly and blatantly biased) .NZ Herald, even 9 to noon host on RNZ, are constantly bagging the govt .I havnt seen a compliment for a while. A majority of the media is biased against this govt imo. Its shocking the low level reporting going on.But hey they are only preaching to the converted, many of whom are rear guard clinging on to separatism, antivaxxers, and climate denialisms, take your pick.

Balance
07-09-2021, 12:14 PM
Who is amy brookes? She is spinning like many media here are ,Hoskins,Dupleases, Newstalk ZB(openly and blatantly biased) .NZ Herald, even 9 to noon host on RNZ, are constantly bagging the govt .I havnt seen a compliment for a while. A majority of the media is biased against this govt imo. Its shocking the low level reporting going on.But hey they are only preaching to the converted, many of whom are rear guard clinging on to separatism, antivaxxers, and climate denialisms, take your pick.

Whatever they are (per your description), they are not sheep & mindless devotees worshipping at Cindy’s pulpit of truth.

Today’s sermons from the pulpit of truth from Comrade Cindy :

‘From front of the queue to last in the queue.’

‘From housing crisis to housing disaster, kiwibuild II on the way.’

‘Urgency only when it’s to get votes from the Maoris.’

jonu
07-09-2021, 12:32 PM
Who is amy brookes? She is spinning like many media here are ,Hoskins,Dupleases, Newstalk ZB(openly and blatantly biased) .NZ Herald, even 9 to noon host on RNZ, are constantly bagging the govt .I havnt seen a compliment for a while. A majority of the media is biased against this govt imo. Its shocking the low level reporting going on.But hey they are only preaching to the converted, many of whom are rear guard clinging on to separatism, antivaxxers, and climate denialisms, take your pick.

The MSM tide does finally seem to have turned. Perhaps the 100 million bribe money is running out, although the special project grants to report on Maori issues are still flowing.
Some journalists and editorial staff need to take a look in the mirror over their appalling fawning over Ardern these last 4 years. I sense they realise public sentiment is changing and are slowly starting to expose the glaring cockups and cover ups Ardern has presided over.

Balance
07-09-2021, 01:12 PM
Another broken promise (this time by a decade!) and another ‘first in the queue to last in the queue’ moment from the pulpit of Cindy’s truth.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/336581/labour-s-ardern-pledges-ak-light-rail-link-in-10-years

Election pledge 2017 - Light rail to Mt Roskill in 4 years

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-government/126304584/auckland-light-rail-wont-start-before-2024-according-to-government-transport-plan

Update - Sept 2021 : Light Rail won’t start before 2024.

jonu
07-09-2021, 01:19 PM
Another broken promise (this time by a decade!) and another ‘first in the queue to last in the queue’ moment from the pulpit of Cindy’s truth.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/336581/labour-s-ardern-pledges-ak-light-rail-link-in-10-years

Election pledge 2017 - Light rail to Mt Roskill in 4 years

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-government/126304584/auckland-light-rail-wont-start-before-2024-according-to-government-transport-plan

Update - Sept 2021 : Light Rail won’t start before 2024.

To be updated by the update to the update of the announcement of the announcement.

dobby41
07-09-2021, 01:19 PM
Which plan? The original one or revised one?

From front of the queue to last in the queue plan?

The one we started the rollout with - not the 'front of queue' comment from late last year.
The plan put in place when we decided to go with solely Pfizer

dobby41
07-09-2021, 01:21 PM
Whatever they are (per your description), they are not sheep & mindless devotees worshipping at Cindy’s pulpit of truth.

Today’s sermons from the pulpit of truth from Comrade Cindy :

‘From front of the queue to last in the queue.’

‘From housing crisis to housing disaster, kiwibuild II on the way.’

‘Urgency only when it’s to get votes from the Maoris.’
Fortunately, the Govt doesn't take your advice otherwise we'd be up the creek like NSW and VIC.
But you don't care with your ideology.

Balance
07-09-2021, 01:26 PM
Fortunately, the Govt doesn't take your advice otherwise we'd be up the creek like NSW and VIC.
But you don't care with your ideology.

We would be like WA where some of my family members reside. All good over there.

Trouble with you Cindy devotees is that you have to always compare with the worse rather than the best. Hence, Kiwibuild. Hence, second last in the queue instead of first in the queue.

jonu
07-09-2021, 01:36 PM
My, My, Ardern just dodged the question again regarding the tracing information not being used for anything else. Claims it had slipped her mind and further mislead us by saying there were already protections in place because people have to authorise the handover.

The glaring issue is what happens to it once it is handed over....as she well knows, and is apparently in no hurry to rule out using it for other purposes. No wonder Hipkins was so cautious....he knows how Ardern operates.

jonu
07-09-2021, 01:47 PM
How dare Ardern be so flippant with perhaps one of the most authoritarian impositions since WW2? Our government demanding to know our whereabouts at all times and being obtuse as to what they may do with that information.

DON'T STAND FOR IT! DEMAND BETTER!

dobby41
07-09-2021, 01:50 PM
We would be like WA where some of my family members reside. All good over there.

Trouble with you Cindy devotees is that you have to always compare with the worse rather than the best. Hence, Kiwibuild. Hence, second last in the queue instead of first in the queue.

The trouble with you is you change your tune based on hindsight.
You look backward.

This time around we are, so far, doing well - far better than NSW and VIC who have given up.
Our vaccine rollout is doing well - we are ahead of Australia with the 1st shot and 3% behind on fully vaccinated. It will be interesting to see how us changing to a 6 week gap affects the double dose %.
We are way ahead of the other country we should have followed (according to you) - Taiwan. They have 44% single dose and 4% double.

Where we are way behind is in deaths.
We have 5.55/million, Australia is 40.29 and Taiwan is 35.09

Balance
07-09-2021, 01:59 PM
The trouble with you is you change your tune based on hindsight.
You look backward.

This time around we are, so far, doing well - far better than NSW and VIC who have given up.
Our vaccine rollout is doing well - we are ahead of Australia with the 1st shot and 3% behind on fully vaccinated. It will be interesting to see how us changing to a 6 week gap affects the double dose %.
We are way ahead of the other country we should have followed (according to you) - Taiwan. They have 44% single dose and 4% double.

Where we are way behind is in deaths.
We have 5.55/million, Australia is 40.29 and Taiwan is 35.09

First in the queue to last in the queue.

dobby41
07-09-2021, 02:11 PM
First in the queue to last in the queue.

No comment on the rest - typical of you to ignore facts.
Very sad.

westerly
07-09-2021, 02:24 PM
We would be like WA where some of my family members reside. All good over there.

Trouble with you Cindy devotees is that you have to always compare with the worse rather than the best. Hence, Kiwibuild. Hence, second last in the queue instead of first in the queue.

I am sure they would appreciate a visit :)

westerly

Joshuatree
07-09-2021, 04:14 PM
Yep raise the IQ of both countries.
The world will learn from our experience.

Balance
07-09-2021, 06:10 PM
Yep raise the IQ of both countries.
The world will learn from our experience.

So writes a devotee at Cindy’s pulpit of truth. :D

Kiwibuild II to make the housing disaster into a catastrophe?

Balance
08-09-2021, 08:12 AM
So writes a devotee at Cindy’s pulpit of truth. :D

Kiwibuild II to make the housing disaster into a catastrophe?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/housing-crisis-many-homeowners-couldnt-afford-their-own-properties-if-they-were-buying-now/RJIT2PHYRBE4WIEG3N2XIPGOAY/

30% increase in property prices in a year. Cindy’s devotees take note!

And the housing catastrophe is unfolding, dividing NZ into haves and have-nots.

"Our runaway housing market has solidified New Zealand as a country divided by property wealth. If you don't have a foot on the property ladder, the dream of owning your own home is becoming increasingly unlikely. At present, the average house price is more than 12 times the average national income,"

Joshuatree
08-09-2021, 12:46 PM
So writes a devotee at Cindy’s pulpit of truth. :D

Kiwibuild II to make the housing disaster into a catastrophe?


Fortunately we have the best govt we can can have leading the world by example through covid like churchill did WW2. Im thankful everyday that its a labour govt and not a national led one.They would have opened up way to0 early and we would have had thousands of deaths by now. Balances obsession with our prime minister is irrational unbalanced sick and sad. I wonder if he missed out on breasty

Balance
08-09-2021, 01:04 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/fake-auckland-100000-cash-drop-commerce-commission-issues-warning-only-3600-in-real-money-used/2K56V4LQXSWU4WIBOJWLTVARNM/

Wonder if someone is going to take Cindy to the Commerce Commission for promising 10,000 houses A YEAR but delivering less than 1,500 in 3 years. Half truths and false promises - from Cindy’s pulpit of truth.

Blue Skies
08-09-2021, 01:38 PM
Absolutely brilliant, 3 days in row around 20 cases/day & today dropping to 15.
Compare that to NSW and now Victoria's Delta Outbreaks, and their case numbers all going the wrong way, showing what an incredibly achievement this is by NZ & this govt.

Showing the whole world how it can be done.

Yes of course there are areas where the govt has struggled & disappointed, but credit where credit's due and this is world leading.

Going to really piss off those Fox News, & ZB presenters, David Seymour & other sad sacks who constantly sneer at Jacinda Adern & the govt.

dobby41
08-09-2021, 01:49 PM
Going to really piss off those Fox News, & ZB presenters, David Seymour & other sad sacks who constantly sneer at Jacinda Adern & the govt.

Don't worry about that - they'll find something to moan about.

Bjauck
08-09-2021, 01:54 PM
Fortunately we have the best govt we can can have leading the world by example through covid like churchill did WW2. ...
I am not sure if that is comforting analogy. The British Empire was saved by the Americans (and indirectly by the Japanese for bombing Pearl Harbo(u)r which brought the Americans into WW2.)

Balance
08-09-2021, 02:39 PM
Don't worry about that - they'll find something to moan about.

This is from Cindy’s pulpit of truth? Or a devotee making a chanting noise?

Panda-NZ-
08-09-2021, 03:12 PM
Going to really piss off those Fox News, & ZB presenters, David Seymour & other sad sacks who constantly sneer at Jacinda Adern & the govt.

It's like Luxon spending his maiden speech on his religion.
Umm, what about New Zealand or the voters.

Tone deaf really.

Joshuatree
08-09-2021, 05:10 PM
I am not sure if that is comforting analogy. The British Empire was saved by the Americans (and indirectly by the Japanese for bombing Pearl Harbo(u)r which brought the Americans into WW2.)

Yep but in Britains case it was cometh the hour cometh the man, the right person for the job.

jonu
09-09-2021, 12:17 PM
The incompetent woke mess that is Ardern's Cabinet exposed yet again

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/126178724/do-ardern-and-faafoi-understand-how-courts-work

This country will spend years suffering the mess they are creating.

dobby41
09-09-2021, 12:33 PM
The incompetent woke mess that is Ardern's Cabinet exposed yet again

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/126178724/do-ardern-and-faafoi-understand-how-courts-work

This country will spend years suffering the mess they are creating.

You look ahead from something that hasn't happened and pronounce doom?

jonu
09-09-2021, 01:04 PM
You look ahead from something that hasn't happened and pronounce doom?

I agree with the opinion writer, that neither Ardern or Faafoi have a clue as to the relationship between the government's passing of new laws and the application of those laws by the Courts. To have such ignorance amongst the Cabinet is a recipe for disaster.

dobby41
09-09-2021, 01:15 PM
I agree with the opinion writer, that neither Ardern or Faafoi have a clue as to the relationship between the government's passing of new laws and the application of those laws by the Courts. To have such ignorance amongst the Cabinet is a recipe for disaster.

Of course you agree - I wouldn't expect anything else from you.
You are still looking ahead from something that hasn't happened and pronounced doom?

Bjauck
09-09-2021, 01:42 PM
It is great to see the purchase of 250k+ vaccine doses from the EU/Spain. On a per capital basis that is about half of the boost that Australia got from its UK swap.

dobby41
09-09-2021, 01:56 PM
It is great to see the purchase of 250k+ vaccine doses from the EU/Spain. On a per capital basis that is about half of the boost that Australia got from its UK swap.

Bearing in mind that Australia didn't order enough at the start since they expected to use more Astra than they are (they are manufacturing about 1/4 of what they said) whereas we just need a timing change since we ordered over 10mil doses in the 1st place.

Bjauck
09-09-2021, 02:02 PM
Bearing in mind that Australia didn't order enough at the start since they expected to use more Astra than they are (they are manufacturing about 1/4 of what they said) whereas we just need a timing change since we ordered over 10mil doses in the 1st place. Australia had orders for both AZ and Pfizer. They have had an order for 40m Pfizer jabs since April. Maybe they are just better at sourcing and negotiating shortfall deals too?

Blue Skies
09-09-2021, 02:27 PM
I agree with the opinion writer, that neither Ardern or Faafoi have a clue as to the relationship between the government's passing of new laws and the application of those laws by the Courts. To have such ignorance amongst the Cabinet is a recipe for disaster.


I don't think you need to worry so much about this, you're over egging the cake.

The PM & Faafoi don't decree laws on their own, we're not Afghanistan.

Feedback from the judiciary & public indicated there is a need to update the laws around hate speech.

An independent Crown entity called The Law Commission, made up of a group of highly qualified people reviews NZ law & makes recommendations to the govt for its development & reform.
The whole process goes through several stages including advice, input, select committees, public & judicial feedback, the Law Commission & debate in parliament. i.e. a cross-sector outcome.

Since it's still an evolving process, it would be premature for Adern or Faafoi to prescribe specifics around how or what exactly will or will not be included at this stage.

Human nature seems to have a natural dislike & suspicion of uncertainty hence the demand for prescriptive answers to everything esp from our politicians, but to claim this will result in 'years suffering the mess' and 'a recipe for disaster' is a bit of an exaggeration.

jonu
09-09-2021, 02:34 PM
I don't think you need to worry so much about this, you're over egging the cake.

The PM & Faafoi don't decree laws on their own, we're not Afghanistan.

Feedback from the judiciary & public indicated there is a need to update the laws around hate speech.

An independent Crown entity called The Law Commission, made up of a group of highly qualified people reviews NZ law & makes recommendations to the govt for its development & reform.
The whole process goes through several stages including advice, input, select committees, public & judicial feedback, the Law Commission & debate in parliament. i.e. a cross-sector outcome.

Since it's still an evolving process, it would be premature for Adern or Faafoi to prescribe specifics around how or what exactly will or will not be included at this stage.

Human nature seems to have a natural dislike & suspicion of uncertainty hence the demand for prescriptive answers to everything esp from our politicians, but to claim this will result in 'years suffering the mess' and 'a recipe for disaster' is a bit of an exaggeration.

The barrister who wrote the piece took a very dim view of the ignorance on display from Ardern and Faafoi, not only about the impacts of their intended new law, but also the fundamental lack of understanding of how the relationship between the judiciary and implementing new law according to the politician's intent is pivotal. When the politician's intent isn't clear, as it hasn't been from both Ardern and Faafoi, a mess ensues.

dobby41
09-09-2021, 02:54 PM
Australia had orders for both AZ and Pfizer. They have had an order for 40m Pfizer jabs since April. Maybe they are just better at sourcing and negotiating shortfall deals too?

While they had orders for Pfizer they needed more because of the preference for Pfizer - ScoMo said so.
Due to the blood clot issue with Astra a lot of people are reluctant to get it and Pfizer was preferred and they needed more to keep the vaccination programme going.

Bjauck
09-09-2021, 03:25 PM
While they had orders for Pfizer they needed more because of the preference for Pfizer - ScoMo said so.
Due to the blood clot issue with Astra a lot of people are reluctant to get it and Pfizer was preferred and they needed more to keep the vaccination programme going.
The latest research concludes the blood clot risk is similar for Pfizer and AZ. The Australian Technical Advisory Group has shifted its advice on AZ a few times and currently recommends its broad use. After initial AZ negative blood clot studies from the EU and then - ironically - a fight with the EU over supplies of AZ, Oz switched to concentrating more on Pfizer.

So now with the UK stepping in to help Oz with supplies of Pfizer, one does wonder if there is a fair amount of politics going on.

Blue Skies
09-09-2021, 03:29 PM
Australia had orders for both AZ and Pfizer. They have had an order for 40m Pfizer jabs since April. Maybe they are just better at sourcing and negotiating shortfall deals too?


Just a point which may not have been mentioned here, the UK was happy to swap with Australia because the vaccine the UK are sending is getting near its expiry date.
Would have had to throw it away.

Bjauck
09-09-2021, 03:36 PM
Just a point which may not have been mentioned here, the UK was happy to swap with Australia because the vaccine the UK are sending is getting near its expiry date.
Would have had to throw it away. True, these deals are for doses “approaching” their expiry. I think the UK started its booster shot at the beginning of September.

dobby41
09-09-2021, 03:59 PM
I think the UK started its booster shot at the beginning of September.

According to the Guardian 6 days ago a decision hadn't yet been made - so can't have started yet.

Bjauck
09-09-2021, 04:41 PM
According to the Guardian 6 days ago a decision hadn't yet been made - so can't have started yet. I think they have yet to decide ona rollout for healthy adults. For those with compromised immune systems, the boosters were due to start in the first week of September.

jonu
09-09-2021, 04:56 PM
State of Victoria beginning to grapple with similar issues to the mess Ardern and Faafoi are creating here with Hate Speech law.

Same clumsiness....same dangerous consequences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd3zgzXChLc

Balance
09-09-2021, 05:06 PM
The barrister who wrote the piece took a very dim view of the ignorance on display from Ardern and Faafoi, not only about the impacts of their intended new law, but also the fundamental lack of understanding of how the relationship between the judiciary and implementing new law according to the politician's intent is pivotal. When the politician's intent isn't clear, as it hasn't been from both Ardern and Faafoi, a mess ensues.

Do either of them fill anyone (with intelligence) with confidence that they know what they are doing?

Kris Faafoi is completely out of his league as Justice minister and it shows every time he opens his mouth.

As for Cindy, only one thing ever comes out of her mouth - spin.

iceman
09-09-2021, 05:10 PM
It is great to see the purchase of 250k+ vaccine doses from the EU/Spain. On a per capital basis that is about half of the boost that Australia got from its UK swap.

Agree it is great that they can now stop talking about reducing the "excessive demand" and get on with it. We're already far to late and behind but great that we now don't need to slow down the stroll out.

dobby41
09-09-2021, 06:16 PM
Agree it is great that they can now stop talking about reducing the "excessive demand" and get on with it. We're already far to late and behind but great that we now don't need to slow down the stroll out.

They stopped talking about it last week.
It is interesting that people would complain if they had run out and hadn't said anything and they complain if they keep them in the loop.
67k jabs yesterday - they are getting on with it.
64% eligible one shot and 33% full (54% and 28% of population respectively).

Bjauck
09-09-2021, 06:42 PM
They stopped talking about it last week.
It is interesting that people would complain if they had run out and hadn't said anything and they complain if they keep them in the loop.
67k jabs yesterday - they are getting on with it.
64% eligible one shot and 33% full (54% and 28% of population respectively). It seems that Ardern is claiming that her good relationship with the Spanish President Sanchez (of the Spanish Spcialist Workers Party) may have helped with the “speed” of getting a deal with Spain. Perhaps a less cordial relationship with right wing Boris Johnson meant she was unable to be part of a speedier and bigger deal with The UK?
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/09/jacinda-ardern-announces-quarter-of-a-million-extra-covid-19-pfizer-doses-en-route-to-new-zealand-from-spain.html

Panda-NZ-
09-09-2021, 08:18 PM
There's a trade deal with Britain being negotiated so the Aussies probably got worse terms in exchange for the vaccines.

Balance
09-09-2021, 08:55 PM
It seems that Ardern is claiming that her good relationship with the Spanish President Sanchez (of the Spanish Spcialist Workers Party) may have helped with the “speed” of getting a deal with Spain. Perhaps a less cordial relationship with right wing Boris Johnson meant she was unable to be part of a speedier and bigger deal with The UK?
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/09/jacinda-ardern-announces-quarter-of-a-million-extra-covid-19-pfizer-doses-en-route-to-new-zealand-from-spain.html

Comrade to comrade?

Both incompetent.

Panda-NZ-
09-09-2021, 09:14 PM
Frau Merkel will be retired soon which may lead to change in european policies.

Spain has alot of good positions within europe (Josep borrell) so the relationship is rather important.

Balance
09-09-2021, 09:27 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/126334548/judge-dismisses-oranga-tamarikis-bid-to-remove-mori-girl-from-pkeh-couple

This is the sort of nonsense emerging from Cindy’s Maori-centric racist policies.

Child welfare staff and senior management indulging in ideology rather than doing their job of looking after children’s welfare.

Under Cindy’s policies, they actually feel emboldened & empowered to try & circumvent/subvert not only the law but a child’s best interests.

Bring on 2023.!

iceman
10-09-2021, 12:45 AM
It seems that Ardern is claiming that her good relationship with the Spanish President Sanchez (of the Spanish Spcialist Workers Party) may have helped with the “speed” of getting a deal with Spain. Perhaps a less cordial relationship with right wing Boris Johnson meant she was unable to be part of a speedier and bigger deal with The UK?
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/09/jacinda-ardern-announces-quarter-of-a-million-extra-covid-19-pfizer-doses-en-route-to-new-zealand-from-spain.html

Spain hes never had a President until the current useless socialists took over. Now they have renamed the PM a "President of the Government".Prior to them, they had a King and a Prime Minister. Does this mean St Cindy will be calling herself a President soon !?

fungus pudding
10-09-2021, 06:34 AM
Spain hes never had a President until the current useless socialists took over. Now they have renamed the PM a "President of the Government".Prior to them, they had a King and a Prime Minister. Does this mean St Cindy will be calling herself a President soon !?

Yes.
.

Bjauck
10-09-2021, 06:47 AM
Spain hes never had a President until the current useless socialists took over. Now they have renamed the PM a "President of the Government".Prior to them, they had a King and a Prime Minister. Does this mean St Cindy will be calling herself a President soon !? Ardern has made it clear that she has put the Monarchy on notice. I think the only reason she is not actively promoting a republic, is that it would currently be a vote loser. Renaming the post of PM "President" by stealth would probably also be a vote loser.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jacinda-ardern-believes-new-zealand-will-become-a-republic-in-her-lifetime/362XBOZCWKWZMIVGFDMLNF2RZM/

Bjauck
10-09-2021, 06:58 AM
There's a trade deal with Britain being negotiated so the Aussies probably got worse terms in exchange for the vaccines. You think NZ will get a better trade deal? The timeline for the NZ-UK trade deal has been pushed back. Years of sucking on the teat of the EEC and then EU CAP Agricultural subsidies has meant UK farmers do not want NZ dairy and meat competition...
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/450540/timeline-shifts-for-uk-nz-free-trade-deal

iceman
10-09-2021, 07:44 AM
They stopped talking about it last week.
It is interesting that people would complain if they had run out and hadn't said anything and they complain if they keep them in the loop.
67k jabs yesterday - they are getting on with it.
64% eligible one shot and 33% full (54% and 28% of population respectively).

Interesting but not surprising that you use percentage of "eligible" for NZ to make it look justifiable but percentage of population when referring to other countries. Great to see you follow our duplicitous leader down her path of lies and spin.

dobby41
10-09-2021, 08:19 AM
Interesting but not surprising that you use percentage of "eligible" for NZ to make it look justifiable but percentage of population when referring to other countries. Great to see you follow our duplicitous leader down her path of lies and spin.

I included both percentages!
Did you not read the post or couldn't understand plain English - there were only 4 lines to read?

Balance
10-09-2021, 08:29 AM
I included both percentages!
Did you not read the post or couldn't understand plain English - there were only 4 lines to read?

They may have stopped talking about demand being the problem only because they were caught out and called out.

Now the spin has changed to supply.

fungus pudding
10-09-2021, 08:42 AM
They may have stopped talking about demand being the problem only because they were caught out and called out.

Now the spin has changed to supply.

Look. It's quite simple. Either the supply is too little for the demand which is too much, or it's the other way around, which means supply and demand balance are out of whack; not that one thing is more wrong than the other. It's simply a problem of comperehension which only the upper echelon of the labour party can understand. They will explain - it's not a problem. It's an issue. See.

iceman
10-09-2021, 08:56 AM
I included both percentages!
Did you not read the post or couldn't understand plain English - there were only 4 lines to read?

You never ever talk about "eligible" for other countries. Nor should you. It is totally meaningless.

dobby41
10-09-2021, 09:14 AM
They may have stopped talking about demand being the problem only because they were caught out and called out.

Now the spin has changed to supply.

But they weren't caught out.
They saw the surge, understood something needed to be done.
Told us what was happening and did something about it.
Isn't that what you want?
Just get over your blinding bias.

dobby41
10-09-2021, 09:18 AM
You never ever talk about "eligible" for other countries. Nor should you. It is totally meaningless.

Actually, I try to and have done, where I can find the figures.
Israel is a case in point.
Their vaccination is being touted as a success but they have gotten to 68% of the population.
As has been said here - the reason is that they have a young population so % of eligible gives a better view of how well they have reached their targetted population.

From what I can make out we have around 15-18% in the <12 year cohort so can't expect to better than 82-85% of the population.

dobby41
10-09-2021, 10:02 AM
You never ever talk about "eligible" for other countries. Nor should you. It is totally meaningless.

By way of further example, I read this
NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian said yesterday she hoped international flights would resume when 80 per cent of the population was double vaxxed.
Is that even possible given that they are vaccinating 12years+?
Even in NSW that would probably mean around 95% of those being targeted - those allowed to be vaccinated.
I suspect she meant 80% of the eligible population.

It is important to be clear with the numbers and for people to understand what they mean.

Balance
10-09-2021, 10:09 AM
But they weren't caught out.
They saw the surge, understood something needed to be done.
Told us what was happening and did something about it.
Isn't that what you want?
Just get over your blinding bias.

No, they did not tell us what was happening - they were spinning misinformation about demand being the problem and how we were first in the queue etc.

And all that from Cindy's pulpit of truth.

When you are fed spin and misinformation, anything but the truth - you better recognize that you are being played like a fool.

jonu
10-09-2021, 11:35 AM
The reason for Ardern and Hipkin's reluctance to declare that tracing information won't be used for anything else is becoming clear. It sounds like the tracer app maybe adapted to form part of the Vaccine Passport.

Ardern and Hipkins were obviously aware of this, hence their continued fobbing off when asked about the possibility of information sharing. They really can not be trusted.

Balance
10-09-2021, 11:47 AM
The reason for Ardern and Hipkin's reluctance to declare that tracing information won't be used for anything else is becoming clear. It sounds like the tracer app maybe adapted to form part of the Vaccine Passport.

Ardern and Hipkins were obviously aware of this, hence their continued fobbing off when asked about the possibility of information sharing. They really can not be trusted.

Nanny authoritative state - that’s the natural instinct of leftist parties, Labour is no exception.

fungus pudding
10-09-2021, 11:54 AM
The reason for Ardern and Hipkin's reluctance to declare that tracing information won't be used for anything else is becoming clear. It sounds like the tracer app maybe adapted to form part of the Vaccine Passport.

Ardern and Hipkins were obviously aware of this, hence their continued fobbing off when asked about the possibility of information sharing. They really can not be trusted.

The information they have available to date will not be used for anything other than tracing users movements if required. They have said so, and surely they can be trusted to answer that honestly.
Their word on that particular matter is good enough for me.

jonu
10-09-2021, 11:56 AM
The information they have available to date will not be used for anything other than tracing users movements if required. They have said so, and surely they can be trusted to answer that honestly.
Their word on that particular matter is good enough for me.

I don't believe they have said so. Baa baa posted the relevant material that showed it could be shared with all agencies involved with the Covid Response.
Once they know something, they can't un-know it.

Panda-NZ-
10-09-2021, 11:58 AM
You think NZ will get a better trade deal? The timeline for the NZ-UK trade deal has been pushed back. Years of sucking on the teat of the EEC and then EU CAP Agricultural subsidies has meant UK farmers do not want NZ dairy and meat competition...
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/450540/timeline-shifts-for-uk-nz-free-trade-deal

Britain wants to look good, especially the politicians. They're after a photo op rather than good trade deals.

There's no country to trade with for thousands of miles so they have to turn to Australia/NZ. Which is good for us though and we hold the cards on this one.

dobby41
10-09-2021, 12:10 PM
The reason for Ardern and Hipkin's reluctance to declare that tracing information won't be used for anything else is becoming clear. It sounds like the tracer app maybe adapted to form part of the Vaccine Passport.

Ardern and Hipkins were obviously aware of this, hence their continued fobbing off when asked about the possibility of information sharing. They really can not be trusted.

Using the App for this doesn't mean anything for your data!
A vaccine passport doesn't need to know where you have been - just needs to know your vaccine status.
Jumping widely at unfounded conclusions!

dobby41
10-09-2021, 12:12 PM
Nanny authoritative state

I thought you wanted that - restrict the movements of un-vaccinated people?

Balance
10-09-2021, 12:13 PM
Using the App for this doesn't mean anything for your data!
A vaccine passport doesn't need to know where you have been - just needs to know your vaccine status.
Jumping widely at unfounded conclusions!

Remember CGT? Kiwibuild? Ihumatao? No new taxes?

You simply cannot trust anything that comes out of the mouth of the spin-mistress Cindy.

Balance
10-09-2021, 12:14 PM
I thought you wanted that - restrict the movements of un-vaccinated people?

Absolutely as these anti-vaxxers are mostly the scum of the Earth. Nothing wrong with treating scum that way.

Same way we treat criminals - those who are hell bent on undermining the greater good of society should and must be treated differently.

What's your point again?

Bjauck
10-09-2021, 12:22 PM
Britain wants to look good, especially the politicians. They're after a photo op rather than good trade deals.

There's no country to trade with for thousands of miles so they have to turn to Australia/NZ. Which is good for us though and we hold the cards on this one. LOL, I think many in Johnson and his Conservative party have almost worn themselves out by giving the middle finger to other countries. Protectionism is far more on their cards. But I agree a meaningless photo op with a former loyal Dominion would mean they can pretend that Global Britain is a goer.

Panda-NZ-
10-09-2021, 12:24 PM
Brexit combined with protectionism won't really work. especially since they have all this new social care stuff to fund.

UK farmers don't have workers anymore (plus the reduction in eu subsidies) which shows they're willing to make some detrimental changes to the sector. Australia's trade deal includes agriculture.

jonu
10-09-2021, 04:54 PM
The murky agenda is being drip fed into the spotlight

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/conversation-underway-on-whether-vaccine-passport-will-be-used-at-businesses-venues-robertson/ar-AAOh9QP?ocid=msedgntp

If 20-30% of the population don't take the Covid jab, where does leave businesses that want their custom?

Are pubs and cafes going to ban a chunk of their customers?

Are the unvaccinated doomed to becoming unemployed?

Are we to have an underclass caste in NZ?

Whether you are happy to take the Covid vaccine or not, these issues should deeply concern you. They are fundamental to how we view our society.
What will be the next issue the government will use to impose restrictions and effectively change the Citizen status of a section of society?
We are approaching the endgame of an 18 month programme of propaganda from the government which included 100 million in bribes to Media.

Make your opinions known where ever you have opportunity. Don't be shy about letting your MPs know. Write to members of parliament and tell them the country will not abide it.

Panda-NZ-
10-09-2021, 07:24 PM
He is indeed good looking. Makes up for the genetic issues of spanish royalty, although the king of spain is pretty fine too.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/lifestyle/2021/09/move-aside-justin-trudeau-kiwis-lust-for-dilf-spanish-pm-pedro-s-nchez-say-thirst-is-new-vaccine-side-effect.html

iceman
11-09-2021, 07:34 AM
A good Herald article today about how we became to be at " the end of the queue". Shows Minister Hipkins has been blatantly lying to us but that is not unexpected.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/kate-macnamara-how-new-zealand-came-to-be-woefully-short-of-supply-in-the-year-of-the-vaccine/W7Z6XCSIGJRWZ5RWMJIX5IBQRA/

Here is an excerpt:
To properly understand New Zealand's negotiating footing with Pfizer it's necessary to turn the clock back to last year.
Starting in May, and picking up pace in June, July and August, dozens of countries inked advance purchase agreements with pharmaceutical companies with promising plans: Pfizer, AstraZenica, Johnson & Johnson, Moderna and others.

Pfizer signed such deals with countries large and small: the United States, Britain, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Israel and Canada to name a few.
New Zealand, however, had no purchasing plan at the time. In late May, ministers announced a Covid-19 vaccine strategy, but it was little more than a $37 million pot of money to sprinkle around domestic vaccine research and manufacturing capability. There was no provision for the advance purchase of any international medicine at all.
In fact, it wasn't until August 10 last year that the New Zealand Cabinet finally took the steps necessary to begin negotiating.

Hipkins himself, with ministers Megan Woods and Winston Peters, brought a paper to Cabinet outlining the need for the Government to think about what it was willing to pay for vaccine doses, and how it would weigh that against securing early delivery.

"Vaccines for early delivery will be more expensive (e.g. $75-150 per dose) compared to later delivery (perhaps less than $15 per dose)..." the paper reads.

"Officials have modelled a small set of simplified hypothetical portfolios to get some idea of how costs might add up. This modelling suggests the size of funding required is highly sensitive to the number of early access vaccines we choose to purchase."

Cabinet was clearly asked to weigh up the value of paying for early doses of vaccine and it agreed funds of some $600m to start the process.

At the same meeting, a negotiation team of bureaucrats within the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) was agreed, as was funding of $500,000 to bring in outside help (a further $133,000 was ultimately larded in to buy an outside PR consultant to fashion ministers' "procurement 'messaging"). The half-million dollars bought a handful of Bell Gully lawyers, among them lead negotiator and Bell Gully partner Simon Watts.: "To properly understand New Zealand's negotiating footing with Pfizer it's necessary to turn the clock back to last year. Starting in May, and picking up pace in June, July and August, dozens of countries inked advance purchase agreements with pharmaceutical companies with promising plans: Pfizer, AstraZenica, Johnson & Johnson, Moderna and others.

Pfizer signed such deals with countries large and small: the United States, Britain, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Israel and Canada to name a few.
New Zealand, however, had no purchasing plan at the time. In late May, ministers announced a Covid-19 vaccine strategy, but it was little more than a $37 million pot of money to sprinkle around domestic vaccine research and manufacturing capability. There was no provision for the advance purchase of any international medicine at all.
In fact, it wasn't until August 10 last year that the New Zealand Cabinet finally took the steps necessary to begin negotiating.

Hipkins himself, with ministers Megan Woods and Winston Peters, brought a paper to Cabinet outlining the need for the Government to think about what it was willing to pay for vaccine doses, and how it would weigh that against securing early delivery.

"Vaccines for early delivery will be more expensive (e.g. $75-150 per dose) compared to later delivery (perhaps less than $15 per dose)..." the paper reads.

"Officials have modelled a small set of simplified hypothetical portfolios to get some idea of how costs might add up. This modelling suggests the size of funding required is highly sensitive to the number of early access vaccines we choose to purchase."

Cabinet was clearly asked to weigh up the value of paying for early doses of vaccine and it agreed funds of some $600m to start the process.

At the same meeting, a negotiation team of bureaucrats within the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) was agreed, as was funding of $500,000 to bring in outside help (a further $133,000 was ultimately larded in to buy an outside PR consultant to fashion ministers' "procurement 'messaging"). The half-million dollars bought a handful of Bell Gully lawyers, among them lead negotiator and Bell Gully partner Simon Watts."

Bjauck
11-09-2021, 08:07 AM
Brexit combined with protectionism won't really work. especially since they have all this new social care stuff to fund.

UK farmers don't have workers anymore (plus the reduction in eu subsidies) which shows they're willing to make some detrimental changes to the sector. Australia's trade deal includes agriculture.
The UK government had promised to pay its farmers the equivalent of the EU subsidies. I am not sure whether the agricultural component of the OZ-UK deal amounts to much, What there is may be available in the Oz-EU deal being negotiated, and which the UK would have been part of if it remained in the EU. Likewise, they may be struggling to produce a meaningful NZ-UK FTA.

Panda-NZ-
11-09-2021, 02:02 PM
The UK government had promised to pay its farmers the equivalent of the EU subsidies. I am not sure whether the agricultural component of the OZ-UK deal amounts to much, What there is may be available in the Oz-EU deal being negotiated, and which the UK would have been part of if it remained in the EU. Likewise, they may be struggling to produce a meaningful NZ-UK FTA.

They will be phased out according to this article by 2028.


Within a decade, taxpayers will stop paying farmers on the size of their farms, now roughly 233P per hectare and comprising a third of farm incomes. This has been a massive distortion in favour of rich landowners. By 2028 farms are expected, says Eustice, to be “sustainable businesses that do not need to rely on public subsidy”. But lest that leads to arable degradation and the erosion of nature, and further exacerbates the climate crisis, the present subsidy is to be redirected to what the plan rightly called “public goods”.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/30/uk-farmers-reform-subsidies-british-agriculture

jonu
12-09-2021, 08:01 AM
I posted this on the Corona Virus....Cultural Side Effects thread, bit given it is Labour currently driving the bus, I think it is appropriate here.

Quote Originally Posted by JBmurc View Post
The 4 stages of a communist takeover - demoralization, destabilization, crisis, and normalization.



It certainly feels we are headed towards a place that is more authoritarian. I think that will look different that what we remember as Communism, but the effects may be as dire.

The power crazy fools taking parts of the world down this path under the smoke screen of the greater good and our protection, are oblivious to these same powers being used against them. Different regions could swing hard Right or hard Left, it won't make much difference because at the extremes the spectrum becomes circular and there is little to tell them apart.

I recommend this clip published 12 months ago. Watch it and reflect on how our government, and those of many countries, are corralling their constituents down a path of Collectivism ie "The Common Good Before the Individual Good" (that's a quote from Hitler). Again, this was published 12 months ago, before vaccination passports were being touted not only for international travel, but for ordinary domestic freedoms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvPKTVK10JE

The thrust of the argument is that the rights of the individual must remain greater than the rights of a collective. Every time that golden rule is violated bad, extremely bad, things happen.

Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding.
Louis D. Brandeis Former Assoc. Justice of the US Supreme Court

artemis
12-09-2021, 08:39 AM
Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding.
Louis D. Brandeis Former Assoc. Justice of the US Supreme Court

Insidious encroachment. Many around the world would think that the old 'safety and happiness' are the drivers, and safety these days is the big ticket item. Hard to argue (well not so hard but that's called misinformation these days) but the genie is out of the bottle now. Delta is the current safety step. Then there will be another (mu?) and another ....

Personal approach is to fortify my family with first, critical thinking and financial literacy, and then support them to make a living that does not depend on nationwide government edicts.

jonu
12-09-2021, 09:49 AM
Insidious encroachment. Many around the world would think that the old 'safety and happiness' are the drivers, and safety these days is the big ticket item. Hard to argue (well not so hard but that's called misinformation these days) but the genie is out of the bottle now. Delta is the current safety step. Then there will be another (mu?) and another ....

Personal approach is to fortify my family with first, critical thinking and financial literacy, and then support them to make a living that does not depend on nationwide government edicts.

The problem being, Artemis, that "nationwide government edicts" will cut across all parts of your life. There will be no escaping them.

artemis
12-09-2021, 09:53 AM
The problem being, Artemis, that "nationwide government edicts" will cut across all parts of your life. There will be no escaping them.

Agree no completely escaping them, but ways and means, some even completely legal and sensible ....

jonu
12-09-2021, 09:58 AM
Agree no completely escaping them, but ways and means, some even completely legal and sensible ....

Start by stopping it in its tracks. Let your friends and family know they shouldn't stand for it.

"Show us your papers" could be in place by the end of the year.

Bjauck
12-09-2021, 09:59 AM
...
Personal approach is to fortify my family with first, critical thinking and financial literacy, and then support them to make a living that does not depend on nationwide government edicts. Some parents forget that they should be a (the main) source of life skills. It should not be left to schools.

Which livings are free from the tentacles of Government laws and regulations?

fungus pudding
12-09-2021, 10:51 AM
Some parents forget that they should be a (the main) source of life skills.

They almost always are, whether they remember it or not. Having met 'some parents' I can assure you it would be a vast improvement if they did forget.

Blue Skies
12-09-2021, 12:41 PM
Start by stopping it in its tracks. Let your friends and family know they shouldn't stand for it.

"Show us your papers" could be in place by the end of the year.



I doubt it!

Most everyone will be protesting for QR codes & a Vaccination Passport if they want to be free to travel anywhere else in the world.

Proof of vaccination on a piece of paper doesn't cut it in the rest of the world.


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2021/09/rise-of-new-zealanders-getting-quad-vaxxed-to-travel-causing-concern-among-vaccinologists.html

Panda-NZ-
12-09-2021, 12:48 PM
Start by stopping it in its tracks. Let your friends and family know they shouldn't stand for it.

"Show us your papers" could be in place by the end of the year.

Do you believe unvaccinated people should be provided hospital space after one year of freely available vaccines?

There should maybe be tents set up with only basic care.

FTG
12-09-2021, 01:34 PM
Do you believe unvaccinated people should be provided hospital space after one year of freely available vaccines?

No less than......

- A smoker who now has cancer and needs chemo', despite ALL the packaging encouraging them not to smoke.
- A heavy consumer of sugar, who needs dialysis, despite the years of public health comm's about the evils of sugar.
- A daily beer & wine drinker who has a stroke and heart attack and needs significant rehabilitation; despite having already lost friends & family for the same reason.
- A prison inmate who assaults another, only to be severely injured herself and nearly bleeding out; despite knowing that assaulting others is foolish & inevitably going to end up badly.
- A home owner doing some roof repairs, falling, & then breaking their back because they didn't take head of all the ACC advertising about being safe & using harnesses.

Bjauck
12-09-2021, 01:57 PM
He is indeed good looking. Makes up for the genetic issues of spanish royalty, although the king of spain is pretty fine too.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/lifestyle/2021/09/move-aside-justin-trudeau-kiwis-lust-for-dilf-spanish-pm-pedro-s-nchez-say-thirst-is-new-vaccine-side-effect.html

Move over Sanchez - Mette Frederiksen is twice as good looking with the latest Danish deal for vaccination doses? Maybe Ardern's left wing credentials are not a hindrance

jonu
12-09-2021, 02:00 PM
I doubt it!

Most everyone will be protesting for QR codes & a Vaccination Passport if they want to be free to travel anywhere else in the world.

Proof of vaccination on a piece of paper doesn't cut it in the rest of the world.


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2021/09/rise-of-new-zealanders-getting-quad-vaxxed-to-travel-causing-concern-among-vaccinologists.html

I don't have a problem with an international requirement. We have no control over what a Sovereign State requires for us to enter their territory. I have clearly concentrated on domestic use and the ramifications and caste system it will create.

jonu
12-09-2021, 02:04 PM
Do you believe unvaccinated people should be provided hospital space after one year of freely available vaccines?

There should maybe be tents set up with only basic care.

Yes I do believe they should receive hospital care. We don't live in Stalingrad comrade! You might be interested in the gulag accommodation on offer in a beautiful wilderness with a brisk climate though comrade. It is a great place to send "difficult" people with opinions contrary to the State.

Panda-NZ-
12-09-2021, 02:23 PM
Move over Sanchez - Mette Frederiksen is twice as good looking with the latest Danish deal for vaccination doses? Maybe Ardern's left wing credentials are not a hindrance




Lots of good looking people in europe.
Spain and Italy's life expectancy is unexpectedly high despite 20% smoking rates.

Mario draghi is 74 but you otherwise couldn't tell.

Bjauck
12-09-2021, 02:40 PM
Do you believe unvaccinated people should be provided hospital space after one year of freely available vaccines?

There should maybe be tents set up with only basic care. Next step will be to implant a microchip subcutaneously, loaded and refreshed with all types of government info. Immediate imprisonment if they are removed. Then these could be easily scanned and then people could be intercepted if they travel or enter buildings beyond their authorisation level. Zones, let's call them ghettoes, in each city could then be set aside for the non-vaccinated population. :scared:

Panda-NZ-
12-09-2021, 02:43 PM
Or have a cell phone which can do all that now.

Blue Skies
12-09-2021, 02:44 PM
I don't have a problem with an international requirement. We have no control over what a Sovereign State requires for us to enter their territory. I have clearly concentrated on domestic use and the ramifications and caste system it will create.


Just wondering how you feel about the NZ Drivers Licence ? ( compared to a vaccination record).

If you drive through a red traffic light & a police officer pulls you over & asks to see your Drivers licence, does that evoke fears of Stalingrad, the Gulag & State control ?

iceman
12-09-2021, 02:57 PM
Move over Sanchez - Mette Frederiksen is twice as good looking with the latest Danish deal for vaccination doses? Maybe Ardern's left wing credentials are not a hindrance



Mette got on with vaccinations, stopped COVID being declared a threat to society and announced all restrictions to be lifted by 10 September. She's also gotten tough on refugees/immigrants and demands they get a job in Denmark or they will not get into the social system. A bit more realism than we see here in NZ https://www.ece-copenhagen2021.eu/covid-19/

jonu
12-09-2021, 02:57 PM
Just wondering how you feel about the NZ Drivers Licence ? ( compared to a vaccination record).

If you drive through a red traffic light & a police officer pulls you over & asks to see your Drivers licence, does that evoke fears of Stalingrad, the Gulag & State control ?

Interesting question Blue Skies. The Driver's Licence carries a lot more information than it used to before they started putting your photo on it. I don't have a problem with it if I have infringed a traffic law. It has however become increasingly grey as to what Police can pull you over for.

I was random breath tested about 2 years ago. After I had passed the breath test the policewoman asked where I was going? I thought about telling her to mind her own business (and wish I had) but didn't know where that might go so told her truthfully I was on my way home. As far as I know she had no right to ask where I was going.

Back in the 80s or early 90s there was a bit of debate fostered by the government about a National Identity Card. The response was a firm bugger off! We need to do the same with regards to a domestic vaccine passport.

Panda-NZ-
12-09-2021, 03:21 PM
Mette got on with vaccinations, stopped COVID being declared a threat to society and announced all restrictions to be lifted by 10 September. She's also gotten tough on refugees/immigrants and demands they get a job in Denmark or they will not get into the social system. A bit more realism than we see here in NZ https://www.ece-copenhagen2021.eu/covid-19/

We were basically unrestricted until corona came back. I think we will be again once vaccinations hit 70%.

I hope the borders stay closed because we need higher wages and there's a good health reason for it.

iceman
12-09-2021, 03:53 PM
We were basically unrestricted until corona came back. I think we will be again once vaccinations hit 70%.

I hope the borders stay closed because we need higher wages and there's a good health reason for it.

You are dreaming if you think NZ can eliminate COVID and live without it.
There is no good reason to keep borders closed forever, neither health or economic.