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Panda-NZ-
12-09-2021, 03:54 PM
Dangerous mutations will be kept out... a good health reason.

Then we can have complete freedom again within NZ.

jonu
12-09-2021, 04:44 PM
Dangerous mutations will be kept out... a good health reason.

Then we can have complete freedom again within NZ.

Complete freedom....as long as you carry ze papers. Show us your papers! We ask ze questions!

Panda-NZ-
12-09-2021, 04:52 PM
Somehow I must have missed this part of Machievellis teachings:

​Give your opponents 12 months of complete freedom. Then put in a temporary lockdown for health reasons.

The government already has most of our information.

jonu
12-09-2021, 05:00 PM
Somehow I must have missed this part of Machievellis teachings:

​Give your opponents 12 months of complete freedom. Then put in a temporary lockdown for health reasons.

The government already has most of our information.

More like this

Conduct a state funded propaganda campaign of fear. Add to it 100 million in bribes to Media in Election year. When fear and hysteria is nearing its peak, announce permanent restrictions on the populace "For their own protection".

These restrictions will include the inability to enter any place of gathering, such as pubs, restaurants, sports arenas and places of worship without the appropriate documents. It will also mean you are unemployable without these same documents.

Show us your papers! We ask ze questions!

Bjauck
12-09-2021, 05:51 PM
Mette got on with vaccinations, stopped COVID being declared a threat to society and announced all restrictions to be lifted by 10 September. She's also gotten tough on refugees/immigrants and demands they get a job in Denmark or they will not get into the social system. A bit more realism than we see here in NZ https://www.ece-copenhagen2021.eu/covid-19/ The NZG dropped the ball on vaccinations.

Blue Skies
12-09-2021, 05:58 PM
No less than......

- A smoker who now has cancer and needs chemo', despite ALL the packaging encouraging them not to smoke.
- A heavy consumer of sugar, who needs dialysis, despite the years of public health comm's about the evils of sugar.
- A daily beer & wine drinker who has a stroke and heart attack and needs significant rehabilitation; despite having already lost friends & family for the same reason.
- A prison inmate who assaults another, only to be severely injured herself and nearly bleeding out; despite knowing that assaulting others is foolish & inevitably going to end up badly.
- A home owner doing some roof repairs, falling, & then breaking their back because they didn't take head of all the ACC advertising about being safe & using harnesses.


The question the above reply to, was - 'do you think people who refuse the vaccine should be granted hospital space after 1 year of freely available vaccines ?'


If the question was re-phrased to do you think vaccinated people should be granted hospital space ahead of non-vaccinated people if hospital care had to be rationed ?'

You would have to say there's a strong argument for yes. (although hospitals won't make that choice)

All of the above are making choices which primarily hurt themselves (apart from the prison inmate which couldn't work out the point).

The person who chooses to not be vaccinated makes a choice which hurts others (& probably themselves).

Delta rips through unvaccinated populations spawning new variants.
Covid loves unvaccinated hosts to act as easy super spreaders to infect others. (although the vaccinated can still catch Covid & be infectious, we know they are miles less infectious & for a much shorter time.)

How would you feel if as an unvaccinated person, you were the host responsible for carrying the virus into a Retirement Village or infected a child or young student undergoing chemo who the vaccine won't work for causing deaths?

Interested to hear why those who think those that make choices that hurt others should receive equal care, if hospital care needs to be rationed.

jonu
12-09-2021, 06:39 PM
The question the above reply to, was - 'do you think people who refuse the vaccine should be granted hospital space after 1 year of freely available vaccines ?'


If the question was re-phrased to do you think vaccinated people should be granted hospital space ahead of non-vaccinated people if hospital care had to be rationed ?'

You would have to say there's a strong argument for yes. (although hospitals won't make that choice)

All of the above are making choices which primarily hurt themselves (apart from the prison inmate which couldn't work out the point).

The person who chooses to not be vaccinated makes a choice which hurts others (& probably themselves).

Delta rips through unvaccinated populations spawning new variants.
Covid loves unvaccinated hosts to act as easy super spreaders to infect others. (although the vaccinated can still catch Covid & be infectious, we know they are miles less infectious & for a much shorter time.)

How would you feel if as an unvaccinated person, you were the host responsible for carrying the virus into a Retirement Village or infected a child or young student undergoing chemo who the vaccine won't work for causing deaths?

Interested to hear why those who think those that make choices that hurt others should receive equal care, if hospital care needs to be rationed.

And so we circle back to the tyranny of the Greater Good.

A child undergoing chemo is just as, or more likely to catch Covid from a sibling or friend who are likely to be unvaccinated anyway. A person choosing not to have the Covid jab is not making a "choice that hurts others". They are exercising their right to autonomy over their own body.

The Covid vaccinated have little to fear from the unvaccinated, but the government appears to be willing to create a lower Caste of the unvaccinated while at the same time introducing domestic passports that they will use for who knows what else once in place.

Any wonder that Hipkins and Ardern refused to say that tracing data would not be shared. They have known this is coming. Why would we trust them about anything else? How long are domestic passports going to be in place? What other uses will they find for them once they are in operation?

Show us your papers! Ve ask ze questions!

Balance
12-09-2021, 07:43 PM
To equate Jews being branded with identification by the Nazis to herd them for persecution and death,

with

a vaccination passport to enable the vaccinated to enjoy FREEDOM

that’s how sick in the head & desperate anti-vaxxers are.

jonu
12-09-2021, 07:57 PM
To equate Jews being branded with identification by the Nazis to herd them for persecution and death,

with

a vaccination passport to enable the vaccinated to enjoy FREEDOM

that’s how sick in the head & desperate anti-vaxxers are.

It didn't start out that way though did it Balance? Once it's in place Ardern will use it for whatever she likes. "Forgive me" she says "I forgot" when asked a second time about data sharing. Earlier Hipkins says he doesn't "envisage" it. They both know exactly what is planned and exactly the opportunities they or subsequent governments will have to add whatever they like to it.

Since when do kiwis need an internal passport to enjoy their "freedom"? A government removes our freedom and then we are meant to be grateful to have it back as long as we give up autonomy over our own bodies and accept a domestic passport. I'm ever so grateful to our DEAR LEADER .

Smell the coffee!

Show us your papers. Ve ask ze questions!

jonu
12-09-2021, 10:29 PM
Boris Johnson to backtrack on Domestic Vaccine Passports in the UK.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-vaccine-passports-scrapped-for-winter-by-boris-johnson-5g2fdb2zn

"the move also represents a significant concession to Tory backbench rebels who had complained that enforcing vaccine passports would create a group of second-class citizens."

Maybe I'm not so mad after all eh Balance? We don't want or need a Caste system in NZ.

It's not too late to stop it here. Don't stand for it NZ. This is not anti vaccine, it's anti authoritarian.

winner69
13-09-2021, 08:00 AM
Boris Johnson to backtrack on Domestic Vaccine Passports in the UK.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-vaccine-passports-scrapped-for-winter-by-boris-johnson-5g2fdb2zn

"the move also represents a significant concession to Tory backbench rebels who had complained that enforcing vaccine passports would create a group of second-class citizens."

Maybe I'm not so mad after all eh Balance? We don't want or need a Caste system in NZ.

It's not too late to stop it here. Don't stand for it NZ. This is not anti vaccine, it's anti authoritarian.

Boris is still going to make you sure are fit to vote (Conservative of course) by having the correct papers (voting passport)

jonu
13-09-2021, 08:13 AM
Here's a Guardian (no paywall) article spelling out the situation in the UK around Domestic Vaccine passports and the political manoeuvring around it. Some Tories had assumed it was an empty threat to up vaccination rates. Maybe that was behind Robertson's comments last week.

Note the fear tactics of stuff that never eventuated prior them declaring a need for the Domestic Vaccine passports in the UK.

We've had 18 months of fear from the Pulpit of Truth and Ardern and her cohort will cash in on that in any way they see will benefit their hold on power.
It's not too late to stop this here. Say no to Domestic Vaccine Passports. Say it LOUD.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/12/plans-for-vaccine-passports-in-england-ditched-javid-confirms

Blue Skies
13-09-2021, 08:44 AM
Here's a Guardian (no paywall) article spelling out the situation in the UK around Domestic Vaccine passports and the political manoeuvring around it. Some Tories had assumed it was an empty threat to up vaccination rates. Maybe that was behind Robertson's comments last week.

Note the fear tactics of stuff that never eventuated prior them declaring a need for the Domestic Vaccine passports in the UK.

We've had 18 months of fear from the Pulpit of Truth and Ardern and her cohort will cash in on that in any way they see will benefit their hold on power.
It's not too late to stop this here. Say no to Domestic Vaccine Passports. Say it LOUD.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/12/plans-for-vaccine-passports-in-england-ditched-javid-confirms



So for now Boris & the Conservatives are saying no to a vaccine passport,

BUT, 27 European countries, plus China, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Russia, Ireland, Israel, Japan, Samoa, Phillipines, Seychelles, many South American Countries, many Middle East Countries, several African countries, Cuba etc etc ALL have vaccination passports of some sort.

Suddenly the Boris UK argument doesn't look so compelling!

Actually anything Boris & the Conservatives do seems to be a good reason to do the opposite, the UK in such a mess!




https://www.movehub.com/blog/countries-using-covid-passports/

jonu
13-09-2021, 08:51 AM
So for now Boris & the Conservatives are saying no to a vaccine passport,

BUT, 27 European countries, plus China, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Russia, Ireland, Israel, Japan, Samoa, Phillipines, Seychelles, many South American Countries, many Middle East Countries, several African countries, Cuba etc etc ALL have vaccination passports of some sort.

Suddenly the Boris UK argument doesn't look so compelling!

Actually anything Boris & the Conservatives do seems to be a good reason to do the opposite, the UK in such a mess!




https://www.movehub.com/blog/countries-using-covid-passports/

I hope you are not being disingenuous here Blue Skies.

"Some sort?"

We are discussing Domestic Vaccine Passports here. To be used as right of entry to all manner of public gatherings and eligibility for employment. Are all those countries doing that? I don't think so!

In fact that link is specific to International use! My word....you're almost as sneaky as Ardern!

fungus pudding
13-09-2021, 10:26 AM
I hope you are not being disingenuous here Blue Skies.

"Some sort?"

We are discussing Domestic Vaccine Passports here. To be used as right of entry to all manner of public gatherings and eligibility for employment. Are all those countries doing that? I don't think so!

In fact that link is specific to International use! My word....your almost as sneaky as Ardern!

That's quite a mouthful.

https://nopunchespulled.com/2021/09/13/gibberish-from-the-pm/

Panda-NZ-
13-09-2021, 11:30 AM
So for now Boris & the Conservatives are saying no to a vaccine passport,

BUT, 27 European countries, plus China, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Russia, Ireland, Israel, Japan, Samoa, Phillipines, Seychelles, many South American Countries, many Middle East Countries, several African countries, Cuba etc etc ALL have vaccination passports of some sort.

Suddenly the Boris UK argument doesn't look so compelling!

Actually anything Boris & the Conservatives do seems to be a good reason to do the opposite, the UK in such a mess!




https://www.movehub.com/blog/countries-using-covid-passports/

Supermarket shelves are bare in britain:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/food-shortages-brexit-covid-boris-johnson-b1917763.html

"We will endure" - Churchill 1945
"We will not starve" - Boris 2021

Blue Skies
13-09-2021, 11:42 AM
I hope you are not being disingenuous here Blue Skies.

"Some sort?"

We are discussing Domestic Vaccine Passports here. To be used as right of entry to all manner of public gatherings and eligibility for employment. Are all those countries doing that? I don't think so!

In fact that link is specific to International use! My word....you're almost as sneaky as Ardern!



Vaccine 'passport' simply refers to a QR code, App, Digital record or piece of paper which records a persons vaccinated.

Wouldn't you say NZ already has a 'domestic' vaccine 'passport,' its a small card they give you recording details you've been vaccinated? ( Stationary Warehouse told me everyones getting them laminated to protect them, expecting they will be needed in future).
It's just that our card won't be accepted Internationally, not just for travel but also for getting into restaurants and bars & events in many countries, which is why the govt is looking at a digital vaccine passport.

Many of the countries listed, are already requiring Vaccine Passports to be shown for entry into 'all manner of public gatherings & eligibility for employment' & they don't need 2 vaccine passports i.e. a domestic one and an international one. Just the one record is ok.
Same goes with some US States, growing number of airlines, bars & restaurants, concerts etc. Similar happening in Australia.

Aren't you really protesting the un-vaccinated being slowly shut out of things including some employment opportunities, public gatherings etc ?
A lot of that is going to be driven by businesses & the public wanting to protect both their business & their health & the health of others e.g. all the children under 12 who won't be vaccinated.

jonu
13-09-2021, 12:07 PM
Vaccine 'passport' simply refers to a QR code, App, Digital record or piece of paper which records a persons vaccinated.

Wouldn't you say NZ already has a 'domestic' vaccine 'passport,' its a small card they give you recording details you've been vaccinated? ( Stationary Warehouse told me everyones getting them laminated to protect them, expecting they will be needed in future).
It's just that our card won't be accepted Internationally, not just for travel but also for getting into restaurants and bars & events in many countries, which is why the govt is looking at a digital vaccine passport.

Many of the countries listed, are already requiring Vaccine Passports to be shown for entry into 'all manner of public gatherings & eligibility for employment' & they don't need 2 vaccine passports i.e. a domestic one and an international one. Just the one record is ok.
Same goes with some US States, growing number of airlines, bars & restaurants, concerts etc. Similar happening in Australia.

Aren't you really protesting the un-vaccinated being slowly shut out of things including some employment opportunities, public gatherings etc ?
A lot of that is going to be driven by businesses & the public wanting to protect both their business & their health & the health of others e.g. all the children under 12 who won't be vaccinated.

So will under 12s be unable to enter these gatherings?

Will all businesses be happy to lose a significant percentage of their customers?

Yes I am concerned about the creation of an underclass. So should everybody.

Don't accept such an authoritarian clamping down on the populace. Denounce it.

Bjauck
13-09-2021, 12:10 PM
Boris Johnson to backtrack on Domestic Vaccine Passports in the UK.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-vaccine-passports-scrapped-for-winter-by-boris-johnson-5g2fdb2zn

"the move also represents a significant concession to Tory backbench rebels who had complained that enforcing vaccine passports would create a group of second-class citizens."

Maybe I'm not so mad after all eh Balance? We don't want or need a Caste system in NZ.

It's not too late to stop it here. Don't stand for it NZ. This is not anti vaccine, it's anti authoritarian. With the current Johnson Conservative Party, right wing dogma will win out over public welfare?

jonu
13-09-2021, 12:24 PM
With the current Johnson Conservative Party, right wing dogma will win out over public welfare?

I would say Boris has had a reality check and been told to pull his head in from his own party. Their concerns about creating an underclass are the same as mine. I would hope a large proportion of our MPs on both sides of the house would feel the same way.

Zaphod
13-09-2021, 01:44 PM
IMO domestic vaccine passports are unlikely to be implemented by the government. It would exacerbate the rapidly increasing divide in society, which is something that Jacinda appears to be against.

The question that they will need to debate is whether legislation is passed (if required) to stop private companies and individuals from voluntarily enforcing it themselves. Whatever is decided, it will create an absolute legal nightmare.

artemis
13-09-2021, 02:08 PM
There is also a changing future to consider. No sooner that Delta has been 'stamped out' than there will be Mu or something else completely and highly transmissible. What then? Rinse and repeat?

Will there be anyone left to pay the taxes? ,

Panda-NZ-
13-09-2021, 02:12 PM
It will obviously affect other countries.. what is their solution.
I think pobably less effective than ours so far.

Zaphod
13-09-2021, 02:14 PM
There is also a changing future to consider. No sooner that Delta has been 'stamped out' than there will be Mu or something else completely and highly transmissible. What then? Rinse and repeat?

Will there be anyone left to pay the taxes? ,

With covid set to become endemic, IMO the current strategy isn't viable in the long term. Some hard decisions will need to be made over the coming months, which will have severe consequences for the country.

dobby41
13-09-2021, 02:24 PM
There is also a changing future to consider. No sooner that Delta has been 'stamped out' than there will be Mu or something else completely and highly transmissible. What then? Rinse and repeat?

Will there be anyone left to pay the taxes? ,

Once vaccinated things will change.
Vaccination is the key.

Maybe rather than lockdowns unvaccinated people will be restricted from places with large gatherings as a means of control when cases hit a threshold (or risk of overwhelming the hospital system)?

Panda-NZ-
13-09-2021, 02:25 PM
We have a border surrounded by ocean and one international airport.

Elimination (of variants) post vaccination will play to our strengths.

dobby41
13-09-2021, 02:51 PM
We have a border surrounded by ocean and one international airport.

Elimination (of variants) post vaccination will play to our strengths.

And I thought that Christchurch was an International airport along with Wellington (not to mention Queenstown)?

fungus pudding
13-09-2021, 03:07 PM
And I thought that Christchurch was an International airport along with Wellington (not to mention Queenstown)?

Also Dunedin, and Rotorua.

Panda-NZ-
13-09-2021, 03:24 PM
*busiest airport. Ie has more than one or two planes on it.

dobby41
13-09-2021, 03:26 PM
*busiest airport. Ie has more than one or two planes on it.

Currently or usually (pre-covid)?

Zaphod
13-09-2021, 05:59 PM
Currently or usually (pre-covid)?

Are we basing this on passenger numbers or aircraft movements? PandaNZ mentioned "more than one or two planes on it" so I presume the latter?

BDL
13-09-2021, 06:05 PM
Hey dobby41, how much do you get paid for defending Labour's racist policies?

Balance
14-09-2021, 08:00 AM
Switched from TV3 to BBC after watching Cindy ducked and dived over her lockdown strategy - anything but outline a coherent strategy to get NZ out of the pandemic.

It is clear her one pony, one Panadol cure-all lockdown strategy has run out of luck and she has not got a clue what to do next.

Vaccinate? Of course we all know that is the one way out but after stuffing up the vaccine rollout, she now refuses to place a milestone marker on when and how vaccination rates will allow NZ to open up.

Meanwhile, she persists with the strategy of using CBD & city hotels as MIQs - risking all our health when she was warned last year that was not a viable long term strategy - no back up plan.

Incapable woman pursuing racist policies with a team of incompetent nincompoops - aim is to stay in power, nothing else.

jonu
14-09-2021, 08:04 AM
Switched from TV3 to BBC after watching Cindy ducked and dived over her lockdown strategy - anything but outline a coherent strategy to get NZ out of the pandemic.

It is clear her one pony, one Panadol cure-all lockdown strategy has run out of luck and she has not got a clue what to do next.

Vaccinate? Of course we all know that is the one way out but after stuffing up the vaccine rollout, she now refuses to place a milestone marker on when and how vaccination rates will allow NZ to open up.

Meanwhile, she persists with the strategy of using CBD & city hotels as MIQs - risking all our health when she was warned last year that was not a viable long term strategy - no back up plan.

Incapable woman pursuing racist policies with a team of incompetent nincompoops - aim is to stay in power, nothing else.

And impose a Domestic Passport on you to further her grip on the populace!

Balance
14-09-2021, 08:07 AM
And impose a Domestic Passport on you to further her grip on the populace!

Vaccine passport is on the way, like it or not.

dobby41
14-09-2021, 08:10 AM
Hey dobby41, how much do you get paid for defending Labour's racist policies?

Which racist policies are those?
My latest posts here have been about our border with one airport - was that racist?

dobby41
14-09-2021, 08:12 AM
Vaccine passport is on the way, like it or not.

But, according to you, they don't have a clue as to what to do next so why would you think that was happening - that would be 'something to do next' and a move from just lockdowns?

Balance
14-09-2021, 08:13 AM
On 24 August, Cindy said this in response to vaccine availability and whether she was on the phone like Australia getting more vaccines :

‘We have enough vaccines.’

Next we find that actually, NZ does not have enough vaccines. So she scrambled around to get more and then loudly proclaimed what a great job she is doing!

Front of the queue to back of the queue!

dobby41
14-09-2021, 08:23 AM
On 24 August, Cindy said this in response to vaccine availability and whether she was on the phone like Australia getting more vaccines :

‘We have enough vaccines.’

Next we find that actually, NZ does not have enough vaccines. So she scrambled around to get more and then loudly proclaimed what a great job she is doing!

Front of the queue to back of the queue!

We do have enough vaccines ordered.
We didn't need more, just the timing changed.
What makes you think that we needed more than the 10mil ordered?

Australia, on the other hand, actually needed more because Pfizer had become the public preferred vaccine.

Balance
14-09-2021, 08:23 AM
But, according to you, they don't have a clue as to what to do next so why would you think that was happening - that would be 'something to do next' and a move from just lockdowns?

What plan?

Look overseas at how many countries are already rolling it out and even a nincompoop can tell you that’s on the way for NZ.

Oh, I forgot - we have a team of nincompoops in Cindy’s government. No surprises there!

winner69
14-09-2021, 08:24 AM
On 24 August, Cindy said this in response to vaccine availability and whether she was on the phone like Australia getting more vaccines :

‘We have enough vaccines.’

Next we find that actually, NZ does not have enough vaccines. So she scrambled around to get more and then loudly proclaimed what a great job she is doing!

Front of the queue to back of the queue!

And Ashley can’t recall if we were offered the opportunity in December/February to take supply earlier

No worries Balance our Ambassador in Denmark just tweeted -

These vaccines have just now safely departed Copenhagen airport on their way to New Zealand via Dubai and KL. Mange tak DHL and Denmark’s Statens Serum Institut for your professional work.
@SSI_dk
@DanishMFA
@MFATNZ
@DHLGlobal

Balance
14-09-2021, 08:24 AM
We do have enough vaccines ordered.
We didn't need more, just the timing changed.
What makes you think that we needed more than the 10mil ordered?

Australia, on the other hand, actually needed more because Pfizer had become the public preferred vaccine.

She was asked point blank then if NZ had enough vaccines as it was clear the vaccination program needed to be ramped up hugely.

You can defend for all you like but the fact is that she barefaced lied to NZers and the media & public are now onto it.

jonu
14-09-2021, 08:35 AM
Vaccine passport is on the way, like it or not.

Not if enough people make their displeasure known. Ardern has shown repeatedly she can not be trusted. Why the hell would you trust her with this?

Fight it. Say not to Domestic passports.

dobby41
14-09-2021, 08:39 AM
She was asked point blank then if NZ had enough vaccines as it was clear the vaccination program needed to be ramped up hugely.

You can defend for all you like but the fact is that she barefaced lied to NZers and the media & public are now onto it.

You are conflating two issues and you know it.
10mil doses are enough for us all to have 2 jabs but a bit left for our Pacific neighbours.
We were jabbing at a greater rate than the plan and supply would allow so the timing of supply was an issue.
Even blind Freddie can see the difference.

Again you are blinded by your loathing and hate and becoming unbalanced.

dobby41
14-09-2021, 08:45 AM
What plan?

Look overseas at how many countries are already rolling it out and even a nincompoop can tell you that’s on the way for NZ.

Oh, I forgot - we have a team of nincompoops in Cindy’s government. No surprises there!

Look at Australia's plan - out the window.
Lucky we didn't follow them as you wanted.

The plan was indicated a while back as you know.
More details are needed but, given the way Delta has changed things, I expect it to be a bit fluid.
Vaccinate then open up slowly based on 'low risk, medium risk and high risk' country settings (testing pre and post with and without isolation at home or a facility).
Have a trial of home isolation to see if it can work and what's missing.
the indications are all there if you can read.

Logen Ninefingers
14-09-2021, 09:00 AM
Look at Australia's plan - out the window.
Lucky we didn't follow them as you wanted.

The plan was indicated a while back as you know.
More details are needed but, given the way Delta has changed things, I expect it to be a bit fluid.
Vaccinate then open up slowly based on 'low risk, medium risk and high risk' country settings (testing pre and post with and without isolation at home or a facility).
Have a trial of home isolation to see if it can work and what's missing.
the indications are all there if you can read.

Ryan Bridge asked Jacinda on 13 August if the government was working to secure more vaccine, and used the example of the Morrison government secuing 1 million additional doses.

Her response? "We don't need more vaccine".

And now we have the government, as lockdown has dragged on, racing to secure additional doses from Spain and Denmark.

So why do we need these additional doses, if we don't need additional doses(?)

We have a 'special issues' focussed government posing as a hyper-competent government. The true focus of this government is on a narrow set of issues, and in their 2nd term it seems the agenda has turned to "delivering for Maori" - which entails unshering in 'co-governance' by stealth.

The have an on-line army of people such as dobby pushing back on all valid criticism. We even had the 'at least they tried' line trotted out around the pathetic and colossal failure that was 'KiwiBuild'.

Eventually the mountains of spin will collapse under their own weight of lies and non-delivery.

dobby41
14-09-2021, 09:25 AM
Ryan Bridge asked Jacinda on 13 August if the government was working to secure more vaccine, and used the example of the Morrison government secuing 1 million additional doses.

Her response? "We don't need more vaccine".

And now we have the government, as lockdown has dragged on, racing to secure additional doses from Spain and Denmark.

So why do we need these additional doses, if we don't need additional doses(?)


Yip, I heard that interview and a subsequent one.
So the example - ScoMo wanted more vaccine because they hadn't purchased enough!
They intended to rely more on Astra but for a number of reasons (CSL not producing enough? Public hesitancy?) they needed more Pfizer than they had ordered.
We ordered 10mil doses - more than enough for the population. Are you suggesting that we didn't order those?
Timing was the issue.

So back to the question from Ryan with his example - do we need to order more like Australia because we didn't order enough?
Ardern answered that we had ordered enough for the entire population and that is true still.

The issue, as I see it, isn't that we didn't order enough but that the timing was wrong.
The Govt got caught out by the vaccination surge past their plan.
They developed a plan of jabs/week/month and allowed that to be exceeded to the point that we could have run out.
They then got enough supplies to forestall that.

jonu
14-09-2021, 09:39 AM
Another growing problem for Ardern is her Maori constituency that she has been falling over backwards to lock into her support base. Many Maori are mistrustful of government at the best of times. There is significant vaccine hesitancy as a result. A Domestic Vaccine Passport will heavily impact this section of her voter base.

Many rural Maori are also upset with the 3 waters reforms and the SNA allocations in the RMA reforms.

It's all going to come back and bite her....big time.

BDL
14-09-2021, 09:44 AM
Ryan Bridge asked Jacinda on 13 August if the government was working to secure more vaccine, and used the example of the Morrison government secuing 1 million additional doses.

Her response? "We don't need more vaccine".

And now we have the government, as lockdown has dragged on, racing to secure additional doses from Spain and Denmark.

So why do we need these additional doses, if we don't need additional doses(?)

We have a 'special issues' focussed government posing as a hyper-competent government. The true focus of this government is on a narrow set of issues, and in their 2nd term it seems the agenda has turned to "delivering for Maori" - which entails unshering in 'co-governance' by stealth.

The have an on-line army of people such as dobby pushing back on all valid criticism. We even had the 'at least they tried' line trotted out around the pathetic and colossal failure that was 'KiwiBuild'.

Eventually the mountains of spin will collapse under their own weight of lies and non-delivery.

Exactly what is happening here......

Logen Ninefingers
14-09-2021, 09:47 AM
Robertson (and Treasury) have been telling us that runaway house prices would start slowing down. Sill absolutely no sign of it.

House prices were 25 per cent higher in August than the same time the year before, despite a nationwide level 4 lockdown, new Real Estate Institute figures show.

Logen Ninefingers
14-09-2021, 09:51 AM
Yip, I heard that interview and a subsequent one.
So the example - ScoMo wanted more vaccine because they hadn't purchased enough!
They intended to rely more on Astra but for a number of reasons (CSL not producing enough? Public hesitancy?) they needed more Pfizer than they had ordered.
We ordered 10mil doses - more than enough for the population. Are you suggesting that we didn't order those?
Timing was the issue.

So back to the question from Ryan with his example - do we need to order more like Australia because we didn't order enough?
Ardern answered that we had ordered enough for the entire population and that is true still.

The issue, as I see it, isn't that we didn't order enough but that the timing was wrong.
The Govt got caught out by the vaccination surge past their plan.
They developed a plan of jabs/week/month and allowed that to be exceeded to the point that we could have run out.
They then got enough supplies to forestall that.

So the example - ScoMo wanted more vaccine because they hadn't purchased enough!

So if we had purchased 'enough', why are we scrambling to buy more? Ardern answered the question by saying that we didn't need more vaccine, why are we now scrambling to get extra vaccine!?!

Logic is not your strong point dobby. Are you really going to start using a term like 'enough' here, as in Australia didn't have 'enough', but we apparently do have 'enough' (but are scarmbling to get more).

Balance
14-09-2021, 09:55 AM
Look at Australia's plan - out the window.
Lucky we didn't follow them as you wanted.


Again, you are confusing Australia with just NSW & Victoria.

Bring out the map of Australia and be enlightened.

Logen Ninefingers
14-09-2021, 09:55 AM
Yip, I heard that interview and a subsequent one.
So the example - ScoMo wanted more vaccine because they hadn't purchased enough!
They intended to rely more on Astra but for a number of reasons (CSL not producing enough? Public hesitancy?) they needed more Pfizer than they had ordered.
We ordered 10mil doses - more than enough for the population. Are you suggesting that we didn't order those?
Timing was the issue.

So back to the question from Ryan with his example - do we need to order more like Australia because we didn't order enough?
Ardern answered that we had ordered enough for the entire population and that is true still.

The issue, as I see it, isn't that we didn't order enough but that the timing was wrong.
The Govt got caught out by the vaccination surge past their plan.
They developed a plan of jabs/week/month and allowed that to be exceeded to the point that we could have run out.
They then got enough supplies to forestall that.

The Govt got caught out by the vaccination surge past their plan.

Why on earth would we expect our government to have considered a surge in vaccinations as part of their evolving 'plan'?

Yes, the government got caught out. They will keep getting caught out. And we still have no targets and so not idea where the 'finishing' line is in terms of what percentage of the population we will need to get vaccinated in order to alter our strategy. When people are lost in a fog with no idea of a way out, they start to break down mentally. This government - with its fear of targets that they can be held to account over - is 'leading' us into a thick fog, a fog which is creating a mental health catastrophe.

iceman
14-09-2021, 09:58 AM
Yip, I heard that interview and a subsequent one.
So the example - ScoMo wanted more vaccine because they hadn't purchased enough!
They intended to rely more on Astra but for a number of reasons (CSL not producing enough? Public hesitancy?) they needed more Pfizer than they had ordered.
We ordered 10mil doses - more than enough for the population. Are you suggesting that we didn't order those?
Timing was the issue.

So back to the question from Ryan with his example - do we need to order more like Australia because we didn't order enough?
Ardern answered that we had ordered enough for the entire population and that is true still.

The issue, as I see it, isn't that we didn't order enough but that the timing was wrong.
The Govt got caught out by the vaccination surge past their plan.
They developed a plan of jabs/week/month and allowed that to be exceeded to the point that we could have run out.
They then got enough supplies to forestall that.

Like the Government you are just playing with words. The fact is that when vaccination rates belatedly picked up in NZ, the Government was caught off guard once again with a very limited amount of vaccines in the country, so they desperately needed to do deals with Spain & Denmark to help with supply. But of course the duplicitous PM won't tell us how much we had to pay for those deliveries.

artemis
14-09-2021, 10:01 AM
Like the Government you are just playing with words. The fact is that when vaccination rates belatedly picked up in NZ, the Government was caught off guard once again with a very limited amount of vaccines in the country, so they desperately needed to do deals with Spain & Denmark to help with supply. But of course the duplicitous PM won't tell us how much we had to pay for those deliveries.

Think I read somewhere that some countries had vaccine supplies that probably could not be used before their expiry date. Surely they would jump at the chance to onsell.

Balance
14-09-2021, 10:07 AM
Think I read somewhere that some countries had vaccine supplies that probably could not be used before their expiry date. Surely they would jump at the chance to onsell.

Hence, the swap deals between Australia and UK & Singapore.

Not so NZ though - looks like Cindy is paying through her lying teeth for the additional vaccines from Spain & Denmark.

BDL
14-09-2021, 10:08 AM
www.newsroom.co.nz/is-the-focus-on-wellbeing-a-cinderella-story

Interesting summary of this Labour government so far ....

Balance
14-09-2021, 10:15 AM
www.newsroom.co.nz/is-the-focus-on-wellbeing-a-cinderella-story

Interesting summary of this Labour government so far ....

Excellent & bang on summary indeed :

Looking back, the Wellbeing Budgets have never been anything other than a successful public relations exercise.

Sadly, they all fall short of effectively supporting important areas like education (from kindergarten to universities), health, research, housing, and infrastructure and they abandon fostering economic growth.

There is nothing left from the initial worldwide hype around the Wellbeing Budgets. The Ardern-led governments have wasted the chances they had to make New Zealand stronger in the future and missed their election and budget targets.

It would be much better if the Government would stop looking beyond GDP and instead look at developing a proper economic growth strategy. After all, jobs earning decent wages are the foundation of wellbeing.

Baa_Baa
14-09-2021, 10:22 AM
www.newsroom.co.nz/is-the-focus-on-wellbeing-a-cinderella-story (http://www.newsroom.co.nz/is-the-focus-on-wellbeing-a-cinderella-story)

Interesting summary of this Labour government so far ....

https://www.nzcpr.com/the-turning-tide-of-public-opinion/

All the usual failures recounted, however about halfway through the article it moves onto this, well worth a read to the end:

"However, it’s Jacinda Ardern’s failure to rein in her powerful Maori Caucus, that is arguably causing the greatest damage – and is undoubtedly a key reason that Kiwis are deserting the party."

Logen Ninefingers
14-09-2021, 10:52 AM
https://www.nzcpr.com/the-turning-tide-of-public-opinion/

All the usual failures recounted, however about halfway through the article it moves onto this, well worth a read to the end:

"However, it’s Jacinda Ardern’s failure to rein in her powerful Maori Caucus, that is arguably causing the greatest damage – and is undoubtedly a key reason that Kiwis are deserting the party."

Ardern will one day be viewed as a traitor to the interests of the vast majority of NEW ZEALAND's citizens.

Balance
14-09-2021, 11:21 AM
Yip, I heard that interview and a subsequent one.

So back to the question from Ryan with his example - do we need to order more like Australia because we didn't order enough?
Ardern answered that we had ordered enough for the entire population and that is true still.

The issue, as I see it, isn't that we didn't order enough but that the timing was wrong.
The Govt got caught out by the vaccination surge past their plan.
They developed a plan of jabs/week/month and allowed that to be exceeded to the point that we could have run out.
They then got enough supplies to forestall that.

Nope - Ryan asked Cindy if she needs to get more vaccine like ScoMo (with the UK) since she made the point that vaccination is the key and needs ramping up. Should she be making phone calls like ScoMo to get more vaccine? Nothing to do with how much vaccine she has already ordered. Does she need to order more like ScoMo to facilitate a ramp up.

Her reply was 'We don't need more vaccine."

Next we know, she is crowing from the spin mountain created by her army of PR spin merchants how wonderful a job she has done to secure more vaccine.

She and you, dobby41, cannot have it both ways.

Point is that she lies and spins, and now she is getting caught out big time because like all liars and spin merchants, she cannot remember all the lies and half truths & spins she has told out there.

dobby41
14-09-2021, 11:43 AM
So the example - ScoMo wanted more vaccine because they hadn't purchased enough!

So if we had purchased 'enough', why are we scrambling to buy more? Ardern answered the question by saying that we didn't need more vaccine, why are we now scrambling to get extra vaccine!?!

Logic is not your strong point dobby. Are you really going to start using a term like 'enough' here, as in Australia didn't have 'enough', but we apparently do have 'enough' (but are scarmbling to get more).


Nope - Ryan asked Cindy if she needs to get more vaccine like ScoMo (with the UK) since she made the point that vaccination is the key and needs ramping up. Should she be making phone calls like ScoMo to get more vaccine? Nothing to do with how much vaccine she has already ordered. Does she need to order more like ScoMo to facilitate a ramp up.

Her reply was 'We don't need more vaccine."

Next we know, she is crowing from the spin mountain created by her army of PR spin merchants how wonderful a job she has done to secure more vaccine.

She and you, dobby41, cannot have it both ways.

Point is that she lies and spins, and now she is getting caught out big time because like all liars and spin merchants, she cannot remember all the lies and half truths & spins she has told out there.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem or are you being purposely obtuse?
To repeat
"10mil doses are enough for us all to have 2 jabs but a bit left for our Pacific neighbours.
We were jabbing at a greater rate than the plan and supply would allow so the timing of supply was an issue.
Even blind Freddie can see the difference."

"The issue, as I see it, isn't that we didn't order enough but that the timing was wrong.
The Govt got caught out by the vaccination surge past their plan.
They developed a plan of jabs/week/month and allowed that to be exceeded to the point that we could have run out.
They then got enough supplies to forestall that. "

dobby41
14-09-2021, 11:44 AM
Again, you are confusing Australia with just NSW & Victoria.

Bring out the map of Australia and be enlightened.

So we were supposed to know which bits to follow when NSW and VIC were following the Australian plan?
Spin it how you wish - we were fortunate we didn't follow what you wanted.

dobby41
14-09-2021, 11:46 AM
Logic is not your strong point dobby. Are you really going to start using a term like 'enough' here, as in Australia didn't have 'enough', but we apparently do have 'enough' (but are scarmbling to get more).

We ordered 10mil doses - do you think this would be enough?
Australia didn't order 50mil for their population, they decided what the % mix would be and got it wrong.

Bill Smith
14-09-2021, 11:47 AM
Hey dobby41, how much do you get paid for defending Labour's racist policies?

He gets free dancing lessons. "How to dance on the head of a pin" is the current class!

dobby41
14-09-2021, 11:54 AM
Like the Government you are just playing with words. The fact is that when vaccination rates belatedly picked up in NZ, the Government was caught off guard once again with a very limited amount of vaccines in the country, so they desperately needed to do deals with Spain & Denmark to help with supply. But of course the duplicitous PM won't tell us how much we had to pay for those deliveries.

Facts are facts!
The Govt published a vaccination plan some time ago and this was produced to match when the supply was to come.
For whatever reason the bulk of the supply was coming in October (and that is what should be debated).
Prior to Delta arriving we (the country) were running, overall, about 5% above plan.
When Delta hit suddenly people wanted to get vaccinated (I suggested that as a possibility prior) and the Govt had 3 option
- run out and stop until supply arrived
- force the vaccination to stick to the plan potentially missing people who were now hot on the topic
- get some extra supply now - prior to the planned arrival.

They did the last and it worked.

What will we do with the excess now? We have, probably, 1mil doses extra, certainly 775 shots more than we wanted.
We could use them for the booster if they don't expire prior or donate them into the Covax pool.

Logen Ninefingers
14-09-2021, 11:58 AM
Do you have a reading comprehension problem or are you being purposely obtuse?
To repeat
"10mil doses are enough for us all to have 2 jabs but a bit left for our Pacific neighbours.
We were jabbing at a greater rate than the plan and supply would allow so the timing of supply was an issue.
Even blind Freddie can see the difference."

"The issue, as I see it, isn't that we didn't order enough but that the timing was wrong.
The Govt got caught out by the vaccination surge past their plan.
They developed a plan of jabs/week/month and allowed that to be exceeded to the point that we could have run out.
They then got enough supplies to forestall that. "

I know who is being obtuse: you.

When you have 'enough' vaccine you don't start scrambling to get more from Spain and Denmark.

dobby41
14-09-2021, 12:04 PM
I know who is being obtuse: you.

When you have 'enough' vaccine you don't start scrambling to get more from Spain and Denmark.

Context and timing aren't your strong points, are they? Not to mention logic.
I'll simplify the process for you:
- We have ordered 10 millions doses - would that be enough?
- If yes then we 'ordered enough'.
- Then we get - are they arriving at the right time?
- If the answer is No then that needs to be sorted.

So simple even you might get it.

Logen Ninefingers
14-09-2021, 12:07 PM
Context and timing aren't your strong points, are they? Not to mention logic.
I'll simplify the process for you:
- We have ordered 10 millions doses - would that be enough?
- If yes then we 'ordered enough'.
- Then we get - are they arriving at the right time?
- If the answer is No then that needs to be sorted.

So simple even you might get it.

- Then we get - are they arriving at the right time?
- If the answer is No then that needs to be sorted.

Our vaccines are not arriving at the right time (will Hipkins and Ardern admit this?) so therefore we do not have 'enough' vaccine on hand when it is needed, and consequently the government has been caught out (yet again) and went scrambling to get more from Spain and Denmark.

dobby41
14-09-2021, 12:25 PM
- Then we get - are they arriving at the right time?
- If the answer is No then that needs to be sorted.

Our vaccines are not arriving at the right time (will Hipkins and Ardern admit this?) so therefore we do not have 'enough' vaccine on hand when it is needed, and consequently the government has been caught out (yet again) and went scrambling to get more from Spain and Denmark.

Then we get back to the start.
I gather that you agree that we have purchased 'enough' vaccines to vaccinate our population.
Ryan asked the question in the context of ScoMo needing more vaccines because they didn't buy enough for their population.
In a later interview, he clarified that he meant did we have 'enough' to not have to stall the vaccination rate.

At the 1st interview, Ardern stated, in her answer, that we had purchased 'enough' vaccine for our population. It was clear what question she was answering.
Ryan should have rephrased if that wasn't the question he meant.

Panda-NZ-
14-09-2021, 12:44 PM
Nope - Ryan asked Cindy if she needs to get more vaccine like ScoMo (with the UK) since she made the point that vaccination is the key and needs ramping up. Should she be making phone calls like ScoMo to get more vaccine? Nothing to do with how much vaccine she has already ordered. Does she need to order more like ScoMo to facilitate a ramp up.

Her reply was 'We don't need more vaccine."

Next we know, she is crowing from the spin mountain created by her army of PR spin merchants how wonderful a job she has done to secure more vaccine.

She and you, dobby41, cannot have it both ways.

Point is that she lies and spins, and now she is getting caught out big time because like all liars and spin merchants, she cannot remember all the lies and half truths & spins she has told out there.

Opinion polls show that scomo is going to be kicked out soon along with with your favourite female Merkel. :)

People seem to like NZ's approach so far. when vaccination rates are higher it will enable more options for both opening within NZ and the borders.

We don't need Australias risky approach of opening the borders too soon.

jonu
14-09-2021, 12:46 PM
Opinion polls show that scomo is going to be kicked out soon.

People seem to like NZ's approach so far. When vaccination rates are higher it will enable more options for both opening within NZ and the borders.

We don't need Australias risky approach of opening too soon along with your favourite female PM Merkel.

Opinion polls showed he wasn't going to get elected in the first place. He maybe booted. People are Covid exhausted worldwide and will want change. Ardern will be booted as well.

Logen Ninefingers
14-09-2021, 12:47 PM
Opinion polls show that scomo is going to be kicked out soon long with your favourite female PM Merkel.

People seem to like NZ's approach so far. When vaccination rates are higher it will enable more options for both opening within the country and the borders.

We don't need Australias risky approach of opening the borders too soon.

We don't need Australias risky approach of opening the borders too soon.

Didn't we have a travel bubble with those 'risky' Aussies? Maybe that was 'risky'?

BTW, Auckland is currently in a Level 4 lockdown.

Logen Ninefingers
14-09-2021, 12:52 PM
Looks like we are now 'New Zealand' to the reast of the world only. Internally the country is now known as 'Aotearoa' whether anyone voted for the change or not.

Maybe we should change the name to 'Woke Zealand' to better reflect the ongoing media indocrination that we are being subject to?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/300403956/aotearoa-celebrates-te-reo-mori-together-in-a-single-moment

Aotearoa celebrates te reo Māori together in a single moment
Maxine Jacobs
11:55, Sep 14 2021

Thousands of voices across the motu and around the world are singing waiata and speaking te reo Māori as the Māori Language Moment begins.

The celebration of the indigenous language of Aotearoa started at 12pm on Tuesday, with at least 188,000 people stopping to support Te Taura Whiri i te Reo Māori – the Māori Language Commission’s Māori Language Moment for 2021.

iceman
14-09-2021, 01:01 PM
Opinion polls show that scomo is going to be kicked out soon along with with your favourite female PM Merkel.

People seem to like NZ's approach so far. When vaccination rates are higher it will enable more options for both opening within NZ and the borders.

We don't need Australias risky approach of opening the borders too soon.

Merkel is not about to be kicked out. She retired.

BDL
14-09-2021, 05:05 PM
"In 2019, agriculture and energy sectors were the two largest contributors to New Zealand's gross emissions, at 48 percent and 42 percent, respectively, according to the latest annual inventory of greenhouse gases.

Between 1990 and 2019, gross emissions increased by 26 percent, mostly due to increases in methane from dairy cattle digestive systems and carbon dioxide from road transport.

New Zealand has committed to reaching net zero emissions of greenhouse gases by 2050 and reducing methane emissions by between 24 to 47 percent by 2050. But the Climate Change Commission says current policies will not get us there."

More broken promises from Labour. So much for "our generations nuclear moment"

BDL
14-09-2021, 05:13 PM
www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/lockdown-breach-more-than-50-seen-lining-auckland-street-for-tangi/2XW7OBTRYAIB2EUR5B2UBHFJ7Q/

And the gangs are allowed to do whatever they like. They have no respect for anyone except themselves.

Logen Ninefingers
14-09-2021, 05:17 PM
"In 2019, agriculture and energy sectors were the two largest contributors to New Zealand's gross emissions, at 48 percent and 42 percent, respectively, according to the latest annual inventory of greenhouse gases.

Between 1990 and 2019, gross emissions increased by 26 percent, mostly due to increases in methane from dairy cattle digestive systems and carbon dioxide from road transport.

New Zealand has committed to reaching net zero emissions of greenhouse gases by 2050 and reducing methane emissions by between 24 to 47 percent by 2050. But the Climate Change Commission says current policies will not get us there."

More broken promises from Labour. So much for "our generations nuclear moment"

I don't believe that cattle are poisoning our planet, but I do believe that the 7.8 Billion humans on the planet are.
The current average population increase is estimated at 81 million people per year.

China is responsible for nearly 30 per cent of the world’s carbon emissions.
In 2020, China produced an estimated 14,400 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent (CO2e), which is equal to the total annual emissions of nearly 180 of the world’s lowest-emitting countries combined, according to US-based independent research and analysis firm Rhodium Group.
China's carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions have grown at their fastest pace in more than a decade, increasing by 15% year-on-year in the first quarter of 2021.

In September last year, China’s President Xi Jinping announced that China will boost its efforts to tackle climate change; that carbon dioxide emissions will peak before 2030; and the country will reach carbon neutrality before 2060.

According to Labour and the Greens - heck, according to most people on the planet - we will be cooked by 2030 and certainly by 2060. NZ fiddling about with dairy cows and what not will be neither here nor there. It's not even deck chairs on the Titanic. It's moving half a match stick on the Titanic.

Panda-NZ-
14-09-2021, 06:09 PM
Selling assets to JP Morgan doesn't help either.

NZ will be a highly desirable destinitation in 2050 and tons of people will want to migrate.

Panda-NZ-
14-09-2021, 06:38 PM
Thanks labour for securing our future:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/126380224/nz-super-fund-posts-record-return-but-warns-of-challenges-ahead

+$15B.

Logen Ninefingers
14-09-2021, 07:11 PM
3 countries have 65% of the worlds cattle.
Constantly angsting NZ has 1.01% of the worlds cattle.
I do hope the other nations who have 98.99% of the worlds cattle are working urgently to reduce their methane emissions.

India had the largest cattle inventory in the world in 2021 followed by Brazil and China.
India's cattle's inventory was reported at 305.5 million head in 2021, accounting for roughly 30% of the world's inventory.
India, Brazil and China accounted for roughly 65% of the world's cattle inventory in 2021.

RTM
15-09-2021, 11:50 AM
Selling assets to JP Morgan doesn't help either.

NZ will be a highly desirable destinitation in 2050 and tons of people will want to migrate.

Agree.
Might not be called migration by then......

jonu
15-09-2021, 12:24 PM
Ardern's media bribes are starting to get a little more inspection. This article highlights an exchange in parliament that the media saw fit to ignore....but they would wouldn't they, given it shows how complicit they have been while being in the government's pocket.

https://democracyproject.nz/2021/09/14/graham-adams-the-double-edged-sword-of-the-55m-government-journalism-fund-cuts-deep/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=graham-adams-the-double-edged-sword-of-the-55m-government-journalism-fund-cuts-deep

It appears the media themselves are becoming aware the public have slowly woken up and are falling over themselves to somehow impossibly be seen to be at arms length. Pretty hard when your arm is reaching into Ardern's pocket!

kiora
15-09-2021, 08:39 PM
Unsubstantiated ?

kiora
15-09-2021, 08:57 PM
" ...............

Blue Skies
15-09-2021, 09:17 PM
"Health / Testing
In mid-April, the COVID-19 Monitoring report from the National Crisis Management Centre suggested in late March/early April "there was uncontrolled community transmission", but it was unknown how widespread this was because of "gaps in the data". At around that time, case numbers were rapidly increasing.
The analysts noted a "significant number of cases have missing information and others have been under investigation for a long time" and that this "somewhat reduces our confidence in the data on cases of community transmission".
On testing, it was noted that the "average speed of the process needs to improve", and on self-isolation of suspected and confirmed COVID-19 cases officials warned they "currently have very little understanding of compliance".
Officials also noted a "substantial risk" that the effect of alert level 4 has been to create latent demand for health services that may translate into actual demand for the likes of elective surgeries at a lower alert level.
For those who like a table, this one compares the NZ response to a number of other countries.
Based on data from late April, it shows New Zealand's economic response is smaller than the US and Australia, with a test-rate significantly better than the UK, France and Sweden, but lower than Italy and Denmark. "
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/05/what-you-need-to-know-from-government-s-mega-covid-19-document-dump.html



This report is from May 2020. ??

Balance
16-09-2021, 08:20 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-cruel-reaction-to-wanaka-holidaymakers-product-of-a-campaign-of-fear/OKMNXSNZQ5NHGQVNCBSKFK57FI/

Death & violence threats to the Wanaka couple.

Cindy commenting & condemning the couple’s actions but silent on the blatant breach of over 50 gathered at a tangi. Why?

So much for being kind.

More like using the fear of Covid to cow the gullible sheep in NZ into voting Labour.

As ye sow, ye reap.

fungus pudding
16-09-2021, 08:58 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-cruel-reaction-to-wanaka-holidaymakers-product-of-a-campaign-of-fear/OKMNXSNZQ5NHGQVNCBSKFK57FI/

Death & violence threats to the Wanaka couple.

Cindy commenting & condemning the couple’s actions but silent on the blatant breach of over 50 gathered at a tangi. Why?

So much for being kind.

More like using the fear of Covid to cow the gullible sheep in NZ into voting Labour.

As ye sow, ye reap.

Where is the evidence of the 'death threats' this couple claim? Are the peelers investigating this? It's a serious offence - so is wasting police time if the claim is false.

Balance
16-09-2021, 09:17 AM
Where is the evidence of the 'death threats' this couple claim? Are the peelers investigating this? It's a serious offence - so is wasting police time if the claim is false.

Presumably the death threats will be furnished to the court as part of the sentencing process.

Bjauck
16-09-2021, 09:30 AM
ANZUS is defunct as far as NZ is concerned - as a result of NZ’s stand on the nuclear issue. Now there is AUKUS with the UK, US and Australia. It will centre on supply chains in the Indo-pacific, technology and cyber capabilities. Australia’s. big submarine deal with France will now probably be effectively terminated. Is NZ now even more out in the cold with respect to its traditional allies?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-58564837

fungus pudding
16-09-2021, 09:42 AM
Presumably the death threats will be furnished to the court as part of the sentencing process.

Why would they be? That was their excuse for not immediately identifying themselves. If it turns out to be b/s the Peelers might charge them, but that would be a separate offence.

Balance
16-09-2021, 10:14 AM
Why would they be? That was their excuse for not immediately identifying themselves. If it turns out to be b/s the Peelers might charge them, but that would be a separate offence.

Like I wrote, will be part of the court sentencing process.

Balance
16-09-2021, 10:16 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018784185/housing-crisis-more-than-4-000-nz-children-living-in-motels

Meanwhile, over 4,000 children living in motels under Cindy's emergency housing program as the housing crisis blows up into a housing collapse.

Well done, Cindy! You have singularly rescued the motel sector by paying well above rack rates to provide housing which you promised to sort out in your first term.

All spin and no delivery - Cindy's story continues.

No Cinderella story here - just a nightmare for the children as their fairy godmother Cindy turned out to be the wicked stepmother instead.

dobby41
16-09-2021, 10:26 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018784185/housing-crisis-more-than-4-000-nz-children-living-in-motels

Meanwhile, over 4,000 children living in motels under Cindy's emergency housing initiative as the housing crisis blows up into a housing collapse.

Well done, Cindy! You have singularly rescued the motel sector by paying well above rack rates to provide housing which you promised to sort out in your first term.

All spin and no delivery - Cindy's story continues.

They are out of the cars that National had them in
I missed the bit in the article about rack rates - did you add that?

jonu
16-09-2021, 10:37 AM
They are out of the cars that National had them in :t_up:
I missed the bit in the article about rack rates - did you add that?

Yeah it's a real laughing matter dobby41. Real funny all those poor little kids being raised in that situation, while self described "large landlords" have been coining it in Capital Gains under Ardern's stewardship.

Did you ever clarify whether you were on the Labour payroll or not?

fungus pudding
16-09-2021, 11:10 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018784185/housing-crisis-more-than-4-000-nz-children-living-in-motels

Meanwhile, over 4,000 children living in motels under Cindy's emergency housing program as the housing crisis blows up into a housing collapse.

Well done, Cindy! You have singularly rescued the motel sector by paying well above rack rates to provide housing which you promised to sort out in your first term.

Surely even this motley lot aren't silly enough to pay more than the rack rate! Nobody would be.

Balance
16-09-2021, 11:20 AM
Surely even this motley lot aren't silly enough to pay more than the rack rate! Nobody would be.

It's not her money, why would Cindy care?

https://www.gisborneherald.co.nz/local-news/20210529/housing-crisis-a-boon-for-motels/

That averages out at $364 a night, more than double the motel’s cheapest commercial rate, which is shown online at $160 a night.

Balance
16-09-2021, 11:31 AM
They are out of the cars that National had them in
I missed the bit in the article about rack rates - did you add that?

Meanwhile, public housing waiting list at record high - 3 times more than 3 years ago.

Cindy is doing such a great job, creating poverty & demand as her plan to breed more beneficiaries & Labour supporters bears abundant fruit.

As for dobby41 blaming National, how long has Cindy been in power to create such a housing disaster?

fungus pudding
16-09-2021, 11:47 AM
It's not her money, why would Cindy care?

https://www.gisborneherald.co.nz/local-news/20210529/housing-crisis-a-boon-for-motels/

That averages out at $364 a night, more than double the motel’s cheapest commercial rate, which is shown online at $160 a night.

If you read the entire article it appears the accomodation provider does apply the rack rate - which varies according to certain factors. I'd give the MSD the benefit of the doubt - simply because they wouldn't, just couldn't, be stupid enough to pay more then asked for.

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 11:48 AM
ANZUS is defunct as far as NZ is concerned - as a result of NZ’s stand on the nuclear issue. Now there is AUKUS with the UK, US and Australia. It will centre on supply chains in the Indo-pacific, technology and cyber capabilities. Australia’s. big submarine deal with France will now probably be effectively terminated. Is NZ now even more out in the cold with respect to its traditional allies?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-58564837

NZ spy agencies will still colaborate.

The "club" you are talking about is responsible for the Iraq and Afghanstan failures. all in it together and all failing.

Balance
16-09-2021, 12:05 PM
If you read the entire article it appears the accomodation provider does apply the rack rate - which varies according to certain factors. I'd give the MSD the benefit of the doubt - simply because they wouldn't, just couldn't, be stupid enough to pay more then asked for.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/125607717/landlord-made-more-than-70k-in-less-than-three-months-from-house-where-boy-was-killed

$1300 per room per week. Room in a lodging house at $185 per day - not even a motel room!

Like I wrote, it’s not her money and if Cindy can create & breed beneficiaries with tax payers’ funds, she jolly well will.

Getty
16-09-2021, 12:37 PM
If you read the entire article it appears the accomodation provider does apply the rack rate - which varies according to certain factors. I'd give the MSD the benefit of the doubt - simply because they wouldn't, just couldn't, be stupid enough to pay more then asked for.

Dont be so sure of that.

I know of a house that was listed for $5750000, then whatever housing Corp is known as now, paid $625000 when the vendor resisted selling to them on principle.

No wonder house prices are through the roof, when buyers are competing with reckless use of the taxpayer funded cheque book.

iceman
16-09-2021, 12:40 PM
Dont be so sure of that.

I know of a house that was listed for $5750000, then whatever housing Corp is known as now, paid $625000 when the vendor resisted selling to them on principle.

No wonder house prices are through the roof, when buyers are competing with reckless use of the taxpayer funded cheque book.

That would be deal of the century to settle for 10.8% of the asking price ;)

Getty
16-09-2021, 12:46 PM
You got me, take a zero off the 575.

I' ll be able to get a job with the govt, making faux pas like that!

Balance
16-09-2021, 12:51 PM
Dont be so sure of that.

I know of a house that was listed for $5750000, then whatever housing Corp is known as now, paid $625000 when the vendor resisted selling to them on principle.

No wonder house prices are through the roof, when buyers are competing with reckless use of the taxpayer funded cheque book.

Assume you mean $575,000.

Indeed Cindy has been instructing Housing NZ (or whatever meaningless Maori BS name it is called these days) to bid & outbid for properties at auctions.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/04/government-buys-hundreds-of-houses-in-direct-competition-with-first-home-buyers.html

Part of her cunning plan to make housing unaffordable so more beneficiaries are bred by her government to become Labour voters.

dobby41
16-09-2021, 12:54 PM
Meanwhile, public housing waiting list at record high - 3 times more than 3 years ago.

Cindy is doing such a great job, creating poverty & demand as her plan to breed more beneficiaries & Labour supporters bears abundant fruit.

As for dobby41 blaming National, how long has Cindy been in power to create such a housing disaster?

Answer me these
- where did the demand suddenly come from? Where were these people housed before?
- if they used to be in rental accommodation then why isn't all that rental accommodation empty?
- how, exactly, did this Govt create a housing disaster?

dobby41
16-09-2021, 12:57 PM
No wonder house prices are through the roof, when buyers are competing with reckless use of the taxpayer funded cheque book.

So the Govt is a major player in the property market and moving prices.
Go and look up what percentage of houses they have purchased.
I have heard this many times and it still isn't credible if you look at the sales stats.

dobby41
16-09-2021, 12:59 PM
Assume you mean $575,000.

Indeed Cindy has been instructing Housing NZ (or whatever meaningless Maori BS name it is called these days) to bid & outbid for properties at auctions.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/04/government-buys-hundreds-of-houses-in-direct-competition-with-first-home-buyers.html

Part of her cunning plan to make housing unaffordable so more beneficiaries are bred by her government to become Labour voters.

My goodness - 254 out of how many houses sold?
"The analysis found that in 2018, Kainga Ora bought 55 starter homes under the first-home grant caps. It bought a further 117 in 2019, 72 in 2020 and another 10 this year. It's a total of 254, meaning nearly a quarter of the homes it's buying rather than building are affordable homes."

jonu
16-09-2021, 01:03 PM
Yeah it's a real laughing matter dobby41. Real funny all those poor little kids being raised in that situation, while self described "large landlords" have been coining it in Capital Gains under Ardern's stewardship.

Did you ever clarify whether you were on the Labour payroll or not?

Coooeee dobby41. I didn't hear back from you. Are you, or have you been on the Labour payroll? I've seen this asked of you before without a reply. It would be good to clear it up.
I'm happy to declare I am not affiliated with any political party.....and never have been.

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 01:06 PM
So the Govt is a major player in the property market and moving prices.
Go and look up what percentage of houses they have purchased.
I have heard this many times and it still isn't credible if you look at the sales stats.

Seems like an inherited problem. 76k+ migrants in National's last year with no where to place them.

Plus house prices increasing even in the US means its an international problem which few countries have solved so far.

dobby41
16-09-2021, 01:07 PM
Coooeee dobby41. I didn't hear back from you. Are you, or have you been on the Labour payroll? I've seen this asked of you before without a reply. It would be good to clear it up.
I'm happy to declare I am not affiliated with any political party.....and never have been.

Lots of questions get asked of people without a reply.
I didn't reply because I didn't think it was a serious question.

For the record, I am not, and never have been, paid by Labour or any political party.
I am not, and have never been, been a member of (or affiliated with, or gone to a meeting of) a political party, or any pressure group for that matter.

Bjauck
16-09-2021, 01:09 PM
Meanwhile, public housing waiting list at record high - 3 times more than 3 years ago.

Cindy is doing such a great job, creating poverty & demand as her plan to breed more beneficiaries & Labour supporters bears abundant fruit.

As for dobby41 blaming National, how long has Cindy been in power to create such a housing disaster?
On the other hand, I think it is quite ironic how much of the traditionally labour-supporting segment of the electorate have been left further behind under Ardern’s Labour.

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 01:10 PM
Is it? In many developed countries the working class support conservative parties, including in Australia.

Maybe not here though so far.

Getty
16-09-2021, 01:15 PM
My goodness - 254 out of how many houses sold?
"The analysis found that in 2018, Kainga Ora bought 55 starter homes under the first-home grant caps. It bought a further 117 in 2019, 72 in 2020 and another 10 this year. It's a total of 254, meaning nearly a quarter of the homes it's buying rather than building are affordable homes."

You may take some solace from that, and assuming first home grants are the only existing homes they bought, but these purchases are not building anything new, creating a stimulus to the economy, but stealing existing housing stock from Kiwi battlers who are taxed to allow Kangaroo to pay above market.
Then to add insult to injury, the home I am aware is then let for 2% gross rental of value, which is from taxpayer paid benefit anyway.

Have you ever had one of these people come up to you, and thank you for your generousity?

Do you notice that nine out of 10 times when there is a house fire, it is State stock?

I know of 6 that have been stripped out from P lab use within short distance from where I live.

Have you ever had one give you some vegetables grown in the fertile back yard, or instead do you see them taking from the foodbank?.

artemis
16-09-2021, 01:27 PM
Answer me these
- where did the demand suddenly come from? Where were these people housed before?
- if they used to be in rental accommodation then why isn't all that rental accommodation empty?
- how, exactly, did this Govt create a housing disaster?

Some good questions. Some thoughts, just my opinions though reasonably well informed ....

We have been told numerous times by the government that the social housing waiting list has increased significantly because people are better informed now than they were. The social housing waiting list has quadrupled since September 2017 with around 2000 households added each month.

Households in motels etc - there are in fact a lot of empty rentals out there. Around 8,000 at any point on Trademe alone. Enough to house all those households twice over. The next question is why are they not moving into these from motels? The answers to that would give some clues.

artemis
16-09-2021, 01:30 PM
Seems like an inherited problem. 76k+ migrants in National's last year with no where to place them......

Must have been living under bridges then. Except they were not.

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 01:31 PM
Nope only 8 per room in an auckland apartment.

dobby41
16-09-2021, 01:43 PM
Some good questions. Some thoughts, just my opinions though reasonably well informed ....

We have been told numerous times by the government that the social housing waiting list has increased significantly because people are better informed now than they were. The social housing waiting list has quadrupled since September 2017 with around 2000 households added each month.
If there are 2000 added every month where were they living last month?
I can't get my head around this - it is as if they didn't exist last month.
When we had high immigration I could have believed this but now?


Households in motels etc - there are in fact a lot of empty rentals out there. Around 8,000 at any point on Trademe alone. Enough to house all those households twice over. The next question is why are they not moving into these from motels? The answers to that would give some clues.

The 8000 on Trademe are hardly 'empty' - between tenants maybe (and some, not even that - I would list the moment I had been given 28 days notice (now) but it wouldn't be empty).
There will always be churn, it isn't like you could house someone between tenancies.
I'd be more concerned about the wastage where people leave them empty because they make more out of tax-free capital gain without the bother of having to manage tenants.
But that is their right, isn't it!

dobby41
16-09-2021, 01:43 PM
Must have been living under bridges then. Except they were not.

They were in cars - I saw it on TV at the time.
You don't see that now - progress?

artemis
16-09-2021, 01:50 PM
Nope only 8 per room in an auckland apartment.

I don't doubt there are some who live in crowded conditions. Census data 2018 reports South Auckland has most overcrowding, Pacifika families highest.

Landlords are hardly ever interested in having overcrowded rentals, why would they be?

Balance
16-09-2021, 01:53 PM
They were in cars - I saw it on TV at the time.
You don't see that now - progress?

Actually they were mostly in rental properties now made unaffordable by Cindy's housing policies.

Blue Skies
16-09-2021, 01:53 PM
On the other hand, I think it is quite ironic how much of the traditionally labour-supporting segment of the electorate have been left further behind under Ardern’s Labour.



I think the idea of the traditional Labour supporter being 1950's poor working class & the unemployed is well and truely long gone.

Since Key & English, Labour's moved into the middle ground traditionally held by National, leaving National floundering in a small space between the middle & the right - ACT.
Is National a Christian Conservative party or a socially liberal party, a socially conservative party, a party for big business & tax breaks for the rich or cutting Public services & Benefits ? It seems to be all over the place.

Labour voters come from progressives & aspirational home owning urban liberals, (even many farmers) traditional National supporters, who have done very well with rocketing house prices and a buoyant sharemarket.
And Adern extremely popular with women from all socio-economic groups.

Bjauck
16-09-2021, 01:54 PM
Is it? In many developed countries the working class support conservative parties, including in Australia.

Maybe not here though so far. Really? There has been some change in the UK where “working class” Brexit supporters may have turned to the Brexit promoting Conservative Party. However I doubt a similar shift has already occurred in NZ or Australia. Although, after the Covid response, maybe it will.

Balance
16-09-2021, 01:56 PM
deleted deleted

Bjauck
16-09-2021, 01:56 PM
I think the idea of the traditional Labour supporter being 1950's poor working class & the unemployed is well and truely long gone.

Since Key & English, Labour's moved into the middle ground traditionally held by National, leaving National floundering in a small space between the middle & the right - ACT.
Is National a Christian Conservative party or a socially liberal party, a socially conservative party, a party for big business & tax breaks for the rich or cutting Public services & Benefits ? It seems to be all over the place.

Labour voters come from progressives & aspirational home owning urban liberals, (even many farmers) traditional National supporters, who have done very well with rocketing house prices and a buoyant sharemarket.
And Adern extremely popular with women from all socio-economic groups. Any research to back this change in support?

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 01:56 PM
I think the idea of the traditional Labour supporter being 1950's poor working class & the unemployed is well and truely long gone.

Since Key & English, Labour's moved into the middle ground traditionally held by National, leaving National floundering in a small space between the middle & the right - ACT.
Is National a Christian Conservative party or a socially liberal party, a socially conservative party, a party for big business & tax breaks for the rich or cutting Public services & Benefits ? It seems to be all over the place.

Labour voters come from progressives & aspirational home owning urban liberals, (even many farmers) traditional National supporters, who have done very well with rocketing house prices and a buoyant sharemarket.
And Adern extremely popular with women from all socio-economic groups.


National is not national anymore too, lots of buying of land and houses by wealthy overseas citizens plus migration.
Then the asset sales which are slowly being gobbled up by American banks.

fungus pudding
16-09-2021, 01:59 PM
Coooeee dobby41. I didn't hear back from you. Are you, or have you been on the Labour payroll? I've seen this asked of you before without a reply. It would be good to clear it up.
I'm happy to declare I am not affiliated with any political party.....and never have been.

You're not going to get an answer from him, so I'll help you. Yes. He has been on their payroll for the last three years.

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 01:59 PM
Act = do not act.
The philosophy of don't do anything at all

dobby41
16-09-2021, 02:05 PM
Actually they were mostly in rental properties now made unaffordable by Cindy's housing policies.

Who are now in those properties?
I asked you these questions already and I gather you don't have any answers - quick pokes are easier?

Bjauck
16-09-2021, 02:06 PM
NZ spy agencies will still colaborate.

The "club" you are talking about is responsible for the Iraq and Afghanstan failures. all in it together and all failing. Those three countries obviously think their alliance is worth formalising further and strengthening.

artemis
16-09-2021, 02:07 PM
If there are 2000 added every month where were they living last month?
I can't get my head around this - it is as if they didn't exist last month.
When we had high immigration I could have believed this but now?

That's the social housing waiting list. Of which more than half are single people (mostly) or two adults (fewer). No children. Been terminated from private rentals, including boarding houses, or asked to leave by flatmates? They might be perfectly good tenants, but a bit risky under the many new rules or landlords are making different choices with their assets.


The 8000 on Trademe are hardly 'empty' - between tenants maybe (and some, not even that - I would list the moment I had been given 28 days notice (now) but it wouldn't be empty).

Of course they are empty or soon will be. That is why they are advertised as vacancies. Then there are the thousands of ads for flatmates.


....I'd be more concerned about the wastage where people leave them empty because they make more out of tax-free capital gain without the bother of having to manage tenants.But that is their right, isn't it!

Yes that is their right. But there are also plenty that might be perfectly liveable, and cheap, but don't meet the new standards, so remain vacant. And those waiting out the 5 year bright line period before selling.

It is a complex sector with many aspects. Do not however discount the many changes brought in since 2017, in response to which assets owners make decisions in their best interest. Because they can.

dobby41
16-09-2021, 02:07 PM
You're not going to get an answer from him, so I'll help you. Yes. He has been on their payroll for the last three years.

Obviously, you missed the answer (2861) or it didn't suit your narrative?

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 02:08 PM
Those three countries obviously think their alliance is worth formalising further and strengthening.


I'd want to ask what they have learned from Iraq and Afghanistan that will be different this time.

Plus whether a different US administration will result in different diplomatic policies.

artemis
16-09-2021, 02:09 PM
Actually they were mostly in rental properties now made unaffordable by Cindy's housing policies.

Megan Woods is on the record saying some in motels etc were previously in private rentals. She didn't say how many, and perhaps would not be expected to.

Bjauck
16-09-2021, 02:11 PM
I'd want to ask what they have learned from Iraq and Afghanistan that will be different this time.

Plus whether a different US administration will result in different foreign policies. Perhaps they learnt that they needed closer cooperation in technology and in other fields - hence this Aukus Alliance. Afghanistan had the broader involvement of NATO countries.

Blue Skies
16-09-2021, 02:14 PM
Any research to back this change in support?



Yes. The last election & consistent polls since for starters.
Also the confidence the big business community has shown in Grant Robertson as Minister of Finance.

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 02:14 PM
Perhaps they learnt that they needed closer cooperation in technology and in other fields - hence this Aukus Alliance. Afghanistan had the broader involvement of NATO countries.

It seems more military based.

Biden put the free trade deal with britain on ice, and didn't share any Pfizer vaccines with Australia.

Balance
16-09-2021, 02:17 PM
Who are now in those properties?
I asked you these questions already and I gather you don't have any answers - quick pokes are easier?

Home owners - that's who.

If you care to study the market (as I do in the property market), you will know that there was a net gain of migration into NZ in the last year and half.

Everyone of the 38,000+ coming into NZ needs a home to live in and most are in a position to buy (which they do) but those leaving, 30,000+, were mostly short term migrant workers who did not leave a home behind to sell.

Then, you have the super low interest rates prompting people to buy properties rather than continue renting when they are in a position to do so.

dobby41
16-09-2021, 02:18 PM
That's the social housing waiting list. Of which more than half are single people (mostly) or two adults (fewer). No children. Been terminated from private rentals, including boarding houses, or asked to leave by flatmates? They might be perfectly good tenants, but a bit risky under the many new rules or landlords are making different choices with their assets.
Agreed.
LLs, if they get the choice, will house those they deem the least risk. Most always have!
When rentals are short the LLs have the power, when tenants are short LLs will house the riskier ones or have an empty asset.




Of course they are empty or soon will be. That is why they are advertised as vacancies. Then there are the thousands of ads for flatmates.
I agree that technically many (most? I'm not sure as I have outlined already) are 'empty' but how could they house someone else while between tenants?
You'd need to look deeper into the stats to find out how long they had been empty for.
I'm really not sure why you are offering this as a solution to anything - seems like a silly argument to me.




Yes that is their right. But there are also plenty that might be perfectly liveable, and cheap, but don't meet the new standards, so remain vacant. And those waiting out the 5 year bright line period before selling.

It is a complex sector with many aspects. Do not however discount the many changes brought in since 2017, in response to which assets owners make decisions in their best interest. Because they can.

There is certainly an argument in support of that.
Some say that a **** house (cold, damp, mouldy?) is better than no house but is that really the best we can do?
'Perfectly liveable' houses won't be hard to make meet the standard.
I agree, though, that some of the standards can be hard to meet for some properties. Ventilation is one area that comes to mind.
Heating is a contentious area - you have to supply a heater that the tenants can't afford to use.

jonu
16-09-2021, 02:19 PM
Obviously, you missed the answer (2861) or it didn't suit your narrative?

I did miss your post (2861). Apologies and thanks for pointing it out, and for the clarification....although I'm mystified as to how you could defend Ardern at every turn.

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 02:20 PM
Everyone of the 38,000+ coming into NZ needs a home to live in and most are in a position to buy (which they do) but those leaving, 30,000+, were mostly short term migrant workers who did not leave a home behind to sell.


Returning NZers... bringing with it their savings from higher salaries and generous superannuation schemes.

Bjauck
16-09-2021, 02:22 PM
It seems more military based.
L
Biden put the free trade deal with britain on ice, and didn't share any Pfizer vaccines with Australia. it is a new military and defence alliance!

dobby41
16-09-2021, 02:24 PM
Then, you have the super low interest rates prompting people to buy properties rather than continue renting when they are in a position to do so.

Thanks for the answer.
So those people left a rental behind - good stuff.

The answer is that we, as a country, still aren't building enough houses (not to mention that the prices are just crazy).

artemis
16-09-2021, 02:27 PM
I agree that technically many (most? I'm not sure as I have outlined already) are 'empty' but how could they house someone else while between tenants?
You'd need to look deeper into the stats to find out how long they had been empty for.
I'm really not sure why you are offering this as a solution to anything - seems like a silly argument to me.....

Easy enough to get a rough idea of how long rental vacancies have been listed on Trademe. Hint - not long.

Not sure what 'silly argument' you refer to. Do you mean silly to expect households in motels to apply and be accepted for private rentals? If so that is definitely the MSD expectation.

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 02:28 PM
Thanks for the answer.
So those people left a rental behind - good stuff.

The answer is that we, as a country, still aren't building enough houses (not to mention that the prices are just crazy).

It's a problem everywhere right now.
So a solution should be obvious if we can find a country where there are decreasing prices.

Balance
16-09-2021, 02:29 PM
Some say that a **** house (cold, damp, mouldy?) is better than no house but is that really the best we can do?
'Perfectly liveable' houses won't be hard to make meet the standard.
I agree, though, that some of the standards can be hard to meet for some properties. Ventilation is one area that comes to mind.
Heating is a contentious area - you have to supply a heater that the tenants can't afford to use.

I thought your Cindy was going to sort that all out, right?

Rental properties were going to get upgraded automatically because the government passed legislation to do so. And when they were upgraded, landlords would keep rents the same?

Then, there's Kiwibuild to deliver 10,000 new homes a year, remember?

dobby41
16-09-2021, 02:29 PM
I did miss your post (2861). Apologies and thanks for pointing it out, and for the clarification....although I'm mystified as to how you could defend Ardern at every turn.

Someone has to try to provide a counter and balance.
Defense is a matter of degrees - even I don't agree with all that has happened, but I wasn't happy with all National did either.
I just don't have the hate and abhorrence some here have where they see nothing right. Some unbalanced people ;)

Immigration is one area - why do doctors and nurses have to wait for residency? Just approve the lot right now. What is there to think about?
The migrant worker thing is getting sorted, finally, solutions seem to be practical.

artemis
16-09-2021, 02:30 PM
It's a problem everywhere right now.
So a solution should be obvious if we can find a country where there are decreasing prices.

Or where the state aka taxpayers provides.

dobby41
16-09-2021, 02:31 PM
I thought your Cindy was going to sort that all out, right?

Rental properties were going to get upgraded automatically because the government passed legislation to do so. And when they were upgraded, landlords would keep rents the same?

Then, there's Kiwibuild to deliver 10,000 new homes a year, remember?

As I have said many times - 10,000 homes a year was never going to happen!
Landlords were going to put the rents up anyway - because they could. A purely capitalist response as you'd expect. (There are very few socialist landlords from where I sit.)

artemis
16-09-2021, 02:31 PM
I thought your Cindy was going to sort that all out, right?

Rental properties were going to get upgraded automatically because the government passed legislation to do so. And when they were upgraded, landlords would keep rents the same?

Then, there's Kiwibuild to deliver 10,000 new homes a year, remember?

Cold, damp and mouldy. Some of that will be structural and up to the landlord to fix. Most of it is the way occupants live.

Blue Skies
16-09-2021, 02:33 PM
You're not going to get an answer from him, so I'll help you. Yes. He has been on their payroll for the last three years.


What ! Bad sportsmanship.

Like Tyson biting Holyfield's ear, or Trevor Chappell's underarm bowl,

posting specifically false information about another poster on here, because you disagree with them, is a low blow.

If you have any integrity, own up & apologise.

Balance
16-09-2021, 02:34 PM
S
Immigration is one area - why do doctors and nurses have to wait for residency? Just approve the lot right now. What is there to think about?


Because that will raise the IQ of the country and increase the inequality inherent with the brown population.

Better to breed more beneficiaries so everyone gets dragged down.

Then, there's a totally incompetent minister, Kris Faafoi, who has gone into hiding because he has no idea what he is doing and is a token brown minister picked for his color, not ability.

jonu
16-09-2021, 02:35 PM
What ! Bad sportsmanship.

Like Tyson biting Holyfield's ear, or Trevor Chappell's underarm bowl,

posting specifically false information about another poster on here, because you disagree with them, is a low blow.

If you have any integrity, own up & apologise.

I kind of caused that Blue Skies. I had missed dobby41's post declaring his position. I have apologised to dobby41. I guess fungus missed it too.

dobby41
16-09-2021, 02:36 PM
deleted....

Balance
16-09-2021, 02:37 PM
As I have said many times - 10,000 homes a year was never going to happen!
Landlords were going to put the rents up anyway - because they could. A purely capitalist response as you'd expect. (There are very few socialist landlords from where I sit.)

You write that but Cindy came into power with exactly that promise - and it's something Labour had been working on for years before 2017.

Why is it good enough to promise but also, ok NOT to deliver and instead, create a housing disaster?

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 02:37 PM
posting specifically false information about another poster on here, because you disagree with them, is a low blow.

If you have any integrity, own up & apologise.

He likes david seymour even though he has no personality. explains a fair bit.

dobby41
16-09-2021, 02:39 PM
I kind of caused that Blue Skies. I had missed dobby41's post declaring his position. I have apologised to dobby41. I guess fungus missed it too.

We will see if (s)he is as noble as you!

jonu
16-09-2021, 02:41 PM
We will see if (s)he is as noble as you!

Couldn't be.....surely not. :D

Blue Skies
16-09-2021, 02:41 PM
I kind of caused that Blue Skies. I had missed dobby41's post declaring his position. I have apologised to dobby41. I guess fungus missed it too.


Cheers Jonu, appreciate that.

Blue Skies
16-09-2021, 03:22 PM
Something I was extremely disappointed about recently was the story around the Welsh GP Dr Harding Richards who left NZ due to his residency application being left in limbo, forcing an Otaki Medical Practice to close its doors to any new patients and struggling to cope with an extra workload of over 1,350 patients.

And the inexplicable refusal of Twyford or Faafoi to intervene & help in the streamlining of his immigration application despite repeated pleas from the Medical Practice the chances of finding any NZ doctor to replace him was zero.

Apart from everything else, in the midst of a Covid pandemic it seems inexcusable for a minister to reject requests for some assistance with this when the regions are crying out for GP's esp younger ones in their mid 30's.

iceman
16-09-2021, 03:28 PM
Something I was extremely disappointed about recently was the story around the Welsh GP Dr Harding Richards who left NZ due to his residency application being left in limbo, forcing an Otaki Medical Practice to close its doors to any new patients and struggling to cope with an extra workload of over 1,350 patients.

And the inexplicable refusal of Twyford or Faafoi to intervene & help in the streamlining of his immigration application despite repeated pleas from the Medical Practice the chances of finding any NZ doctor to replace him was zero.

Apart from everything else, in the midst of a Covid pandemic it seems inexcusable for a minister to reject requests for some assistance with this when the regions are crying out for GP's esp younger ones in their mid 30's.

I agree with that Blue Skies. There are literally dozens or hundreds of people in the same situation. TV last night had a young experienced paraglider taking people up for gliding being kicked out after working for 2.5 years in NZ and the employer begging the authorities for leniency, to no avail. He said he will not be able to replace her experience. These two examples just seems so utterly pointless and achieve absolutely nothing except frustrations to all involved, including our society. Time for Faafoi to get a grip and try to be of some use rather than hiding away from media and denying all requests for interviews. If it wasn't for this Government's "most open and honest" policy, one could be forgiven for thinking he's been gagged.

dobby41
16-09-2021, 03:38 PM
I agree with that Blue Skies. There are literally dozens or hundreds of people in the same situation. TV last night had a young experienced paraglider taking people up for gliding being kicked out after working for 2.5 years in NZ and the employer begging the authorities for leniency, to no avail. He said he will not be able to replace her experience. These two examples just seems so utterly pointless and achieve absolutely nothing except frustrations to all involved, including our society. Time for Faafoi to get a grip and try to be of some use rather than hiding away from media and denying all requests for interviews. If it wasn't for this Government's "most open and honest" policy, one could be forgiven for thinking he's been gagged.

Doctors and nurses are a 'no brainer' as they say - just stamp the papers and done.
Paragliders - pop in the pile to think about. But get on to that pile!

iceman
16-09-2021, 03:47 PM
Doctors and nurses are a 'no brainer' as they say - just stamp the papers and done.
Paragliders - pop in the pile to think about. But get on to that pile!

Totally agree. But I just can't see any reason why we would be kicking anybody out of the country that is employable and has been long term employed in NZ and appreciated by their employers. Every industry in NZ has been screaming out for staff and will be, if the economy will ever be restarted again.

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 03:51 PM
We are at 2% population growth, the highest rate in the OECD.

iceman
16-09-2021, 04:04 PM
We are at 2% population growth, the highest rate in the OECD.

Can you please give a link to your research ?

Here is a small segment from Tony Alexander's piece today, where he discusses data on arrivals and departures according to StatsNZ:

""The big change has instead been a large drop in the annual number of Kiwis leaving from over 40,000 early in 2019 to 21,000 come mid-2020.
Over the five years to mid-2019 the average number of Kiwis leaving here has been almost 43,000 a year. The ten-year average is a 52,000
gross outflow.
We can see from both graphs that the annual net gain of Kiwis is falling away. It now stands at 14,325 from a peak of 24,185 in October last
year.
The gross outflow is currently just under 14,000 from 40,000 two years ago.How realistic is it to expect that the latest annual
gross outflow will continue once the borders open? Not very.
In fact, we might make a rough calculation that if the borders open in January there will be a back log of somewhere between 55,000 and 75,000
Kiwis “wanting” to leave New Zealand. If we offset that against a backlog of those wanting to get in of about 5,000 if that, we get scope for a
very large outflow of Kiwis overseas when things return to whatever the new global movement “normal” is.""

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 04:07 PM
Table 3.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.GROW?locations=OE&most_recent_value_desc=true (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.GROW?locations=OE&most_recent_value_desc=true)

iceman
16-09-2021, 04:13 PM
Table 3.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.GROW?locations=OE&most_recent_value_desc=true (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.GROW?locations=OE&most_recent_value_desc=true)

Thanks. If this is based on actual numbers rather than forecast, then there must have been a lot of births exceeding deaths. It certainly wasn't from immigration.

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 04:20 PM
Our fertility rate is equal to the united states at 1.7, which has 0.4% pop growth. So its coming from somewhere else.

dobby41
16-09-2021, 04:26 PM
Totally agree. But I just can't see any reason why we would be kicking anybody out of the country that is employable and has been long term employed in NZ and appreciated by they're employers. Every industry in NZ has been screaming out for staff and will be, if the economy will ever be restarted again.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just adding that there are some people that shouldn't even need any thought before we allow them in - doctors and nurses in particular.

Balance
16-09-2021, 04:43 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you, just adding that there are some people that shouldn't even need any thought before we allow them in - doctors and nurses in particular.

Now you see the true colour of Cindy - incompetent & oblivious to the long term economic future of NZ.

dobby41
16-09-2021, 04:46 PM
Our fertility rate is equal to the united states at 1.7, which has 0.4% pop growth. So its coming from somewhere else.

Don't you need a fertility rate of about 2.1 to stay even?
So 1.7% would be a 0.4% decline?

Balance
16-09-2021, 05:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq17gKFAds4

Cindy creating a separatist Apartheid system in NZ by stealth.

A system there less than 17% of the population will call on the shots on the future of NZ in everything.

She has already hijacked the Health system* so that Maori now has veto right over health services and health spending.

Next she wants to hijack our water system* so that she gives Maori veto rights over water use.

Next she will give them veto right over all government and state matters* : Starting with

- Separate justice system

- Separate incarceration system

- Maoris to have greater legal rights and exemptions from common laws

Wake up, NZers before it is too late.

* Refer He Puapua Report & Recommendations

Baa_Baa
16-09-2021, 05:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq17gKFAds4

Cindy creating a separatist Apartheid system in NZ by stealth.

A system there less than 17% of the population will call on the shots on the future of NZ in everything.

She has already hijacked the Health system so that Maori now has veto right over health services and health spending.

Next she wants to hijack our water system so that she gives Maori veto rights over water use.

Next she will give them veto right over all government and state matters : Starting with

- Separate justice system

- Separate incarceration system

- Maoris to have greater legal rights and exemptions from common laws

Wake up, NZers before it is too late.

Why do we hear this stuff on an Aussie media? He, the interviewer is rightly incredulous that NZ media just ignore it, heading towards apartheid NZ. Dr Muriel Newman who was interviewed is just as incredulous, her website NZCPR (https://www.nzcpr.com) is illuminating and here's the article about He Puapua (https://www.nzcpr.com/he-puapua/) - charting the road to apartheid NZ.

jonu
16-09-2021, 05:32 PM
Why do we hear this stuff on an Aussie media? He, the interviewer is rightly incredulous that NZ media just ignore it, heading towards apartheid NZ. Dr Muriel Newman who was interviewed is just as incredulous, her website NZCPR (https://www.nzcpr.com) is illuminating and here's the article about He Puapua (https://www.nzcpr.com/he-puapua/) - charting the road to apartheid NZ.

Do you reckon a 100 million bribe of the media would have had anything to do with NZ media ignoring or even encouraging it?

Panda-NZ-
16-09-2021, 05:36 PM
Hopefully Sky News can be banned from youtube again

jonu
16-09-2021, 05:38 PM
Hopefully Sky News can be banned from youtube again

This. This is the authoritarian utopia we can look forward to. This from one of Ardern's biggest defenders. What an asset!

Baa_Baa
16-09-2021, 06:12 PM
Hopefully Sky News can be banned from youtube again

It's not Sky News per se, it's the story. Did you even listen to what Dr Newman had to say, or just knee jerk shoot the media?

westerly
16-09-2021, 07:35 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq17gKFAds4

Cindy creating a separatist Apartheid system in NZ by stealth.

A system there less than 17% of the population will call on the shots on the future of NZ in everything.

She has already hijacked the Health system* so that Maori now has veto right over health services and health spending.

Next she wants to hijack our water system* so that she gives Maori veto rights over water use.

Next she will give them veto right over all government and state matters* : Starting with

- Separate justice system

- Separate incarceration system

- Maoris to have greater legal rights and exemptions from common laws

Wake up, NZers before it is too late.

* Refer He Puapua Report & Recommendations

Seems a bit more balanced than your offering. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125740914/the-contentious-he-puapua-plan-explained

westerly

jonu
16-09-2021, 07:55 PM
Seems a bit more balanced than your offering. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125740914/the-contentious-he-puapua-plan-explained

westerly

Aah yes, one of Stuff's lovely "explainer" pieces, paid for no doubt out of the 100 million dollar bribe fund from Ardern. Excuse the cynicism, it's just hard to see my tax dollars being used so extensively by this government to force feed propaganda.

Balance
16-09-2021, 08:28 PM
Aah yes, one of Stuff's lovely "explainer" pieces, paid for no doubt out of the 100 million dollar bribe fund from Ardern. Excuse the cynicism, it's just hard to see my tax dollars being used so extensively by this government to force feed propaganda.

The creation of the separate Maori health authority is proof enough of what Cindy is about.

Now we see the propaganda around 3 Waters, designed to hoodwink councils into handing over water control so Maoris have veto rights over water use.

Who is fooling who, Westerly? You happy to see separatism as the way forward for NZ - 16.5% of the population controlling the way NZ is in the future?

ynot
16-09-2021, 08:37 PM
The creation of the separate Maori health authority is proof enough of what Cindy is about.

Now we see the propaganda around 3 Waters, designed to hoodwink councils into handing over water control so Maoris have veto rights over water use.

Who is fooling who, Westerly? You happy to see separatism as the way forward for NZ - 16.5% of the population controlling the way NZ is in the future?

I would not be surprised if there are plenty of hard working Maori opposed to this BS.

jonu
17-09-2021, 07:08 AM
Things are getting hot in the kitchen for Willie Jackson

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/willie-jackson-under-fire-from-maori-council/ar-AAOwppM?ocid=msedgntp

This looks messy enough to run and run. Ardern's efforts to buy Maori support may have been flushed by the actions of one of her meddling Ministers.

Note the Minister's spokesperson's deflecting comments at the end, trying to point the mess back at the NZMC. Despite the obvious tension within the NZMC, the most serious allegation is that Jackson has withheld funding to support his own political mates.

iceman
17-09-2021, 07:39 AM
Don't you need a fertility rate of about 2.1 to stay even?
So 1.7% would be a 0.4% decline?

I think the numbers Panda-NZ posted on population growth are based on running estimations from the 2018 Census and are significantly different to the real departure and arrival numbers reported by StatsNZ in 2020 & 2021. I think the estimations are obviously wrong here and probably in most countries, due to travel restrictions and border controls Worldwide.

jonu
17-09-2021, 05:17 PM
Just in case you thought NZ media were gaining some semblance of integrity as the 100 million bribe runs out, here comes dear old RNZ with this doozy of a headline. Somehow NZ is a winner in an agreement Ardern says we weren't even consulted on. Given it involves nuclear subs that's not surprising...but seriously, being pushed further out of the nest gets spun as a win? Keep the cash flowing Cindy....they're loving it!

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/new-zealand-a-winner-in-aukus-agreement-but-risks-remain-experts/ar-AAOvjCO?ocid=msedgntp

dobby41
17-09-2021, 05:53 PM
Just in case you thought NZ media were gaining some semblance of integrity as the 100 million bribe runs out, here comes dear old RNZ with this doozy of a headline. Somehow NZ is a winner in an agreement Ardern says we weren't even consulted on. Given it involves nuclear subs that's not surprising...but seriously, being pushed further out of the nest gets spun as a win? Keep the cash flowing Cindy....they're loving it!

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/new-zealand-a-winner-in-aukus-agreement-but-risks-remain-experts/ar-AAOvjCO?ocid=msedgntp

Would we want to be part of a deal sharing nuclear submarine stuff given our current policy setting, and law (Nuclear Free)?
Had they asked we would have had to say no wouldn't we?

BDL
17-09-2021, 06:26 PM
She wasn't even asked, didn't even know about it, that's the biggest point.
She is not as important on the world stage as she likes to think she is.
It is also about sharing technology and cyber security.
More important to learn some te reo here in the Island of NZ ......

jonu
17-09-2021, 06:38 PM
Would we want to be part of a deal sharing nuclear submarine stuff given our current policy setting, and law (Nuclear Free)?
Had they asked we would have had to say no wouldn't we?

That wasn't the point. Even Ardern didn't try to hide that. RNZ was doing it for her! ka-ching, ka-ching!

Bjauck
18-09-2021, 07:31 AM
She wasn't even asked, didn't even know about it, that's the biggest point.
She is not as important on the world stage as she likes to think she is.
It is also about sharing technology and cyber security.
More important to learn some te reo here in the Island of NZ ...... As long as NZ is wed to its current nuclear stance, then we will not be party to these closer alliances involving our nuclear allies (that includes Australia now), no matter whether we have National or Labour PMs.

ynot
18-09-2021, 07:51 AM
As long as NZ is wed to its current nuclear stance, then we will not be party to these closer alliances involving our nuclear allies (that includes Australia now), no matter whether we have National or Labour PMs.
Regardless of NZ's nuclear stance, as a Kiwi, I am grateful to the AUKUS for delivering this strong message to China.

BDL
18-09-2021, 08:00 AM
Maybe we need to have a new look at our nuclear stance. Nuclear technology has come along way since then. Clean fission tech is getting closer all the time.
Also, we haven't had a world war since the advent of nuclear weapons, they may have in fact made the world safer.
But in NZ, we can speak te reo!! WOW Jacinda, such a great leader ....

Blue Skies
18-09-2021, 08:26 AM
Just in case you thought NZ media were gaining some semblance of integrity as the 100 million bribe runs out, here comes dear old RNZ with this doozy of a headline. Somehow NZ is a winner in an agreement Ardern says we weren't even consulted on. Given it involves nuclear subs that's not surprising...but seriously, being pushed further out of the nest gets spun as a win? Keep the cash flowing Cindy....they're loving it!

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/new-zealand-a-winner-in-aukus-agreement-but-risks-remain-experts/ar-AAOvjCO?ocid=msedgntp




I think you'll find its not just RNZ saying the AUKUS agreement will result in good outcomes for NZ. Many business commentators were quick to point this out & other media are too.

Why? Because how do you think China will react to those countries who are behaving increasingly belligerently toward China, (and remember the US,UK & Australia were the first & most eager to invade Iraq & Afghanistan)?

With China buying around a third of our exports, NZ would want to think seriously before joining this military alliance against China.
Our independent stance looking increasingly like being rewarded by China while Australia punished further.
You only have to look at how much better the NZ economy has faired recently than the Australian economy with it's muscular attitude to China (& resulting falling exports of Iron ore & other exports to China) .
You would not want to be heavily invested in any Australian company dependent on exports to China after this.
Whereas NZ is likely to benefit.
Was it just coincidence later the same day this was announced, MFAT received a formal request from China to join the CPTPP ?

So I think the accusation the RNZ is spinning a story linked to a bribe from the govt is a wee bit off the mark.


BTW, even Keating has said Australia's obsession with nuclear submarines is absurd , the sub's projected to cost about $90 billion plus $145 billion to maintain over their life cycle.

What's NZ's entire defence budget, about $4 billion?

jonu
18-09-2021, 08:38 AM
I think you'll find its not just RNZ saying the AUKUS agreement will result in good outcomes for NZ. Many business commentators were quick to point this out & other media are too.

Why? Because how do you think China will react to those countries who are behaving increasingly belligerently toward China, (and remember the US,UK & Australia were the first & most eager to invade Iraq & Afghanistan)?

With China buying around a third of our exports, NZ would want to think seriously before joining this military alliance against China.
Our independent stance looking increasingly like being rewarded by China while Australia punished further.
You only have to look at how much better the NZ economy has faired recently than the Australian economy with it's muscular attitude to China (& resulting falling exports of Iron ore & other exports to China) .
You would not want to be heavily invested in any Australian company dependent on exports to China after this.
Whereas NZ is likely to benefit.
Was it just coincidence later the same day this was announced, MFAT received a formal request from China to join the CPTPP ?

So I think the accusation the RNZ is spinning a story linked to a bribe from the govt is a wee bit off the mark.

Except that about 80% of the article says the opposite. One passing mention from Coleman talks about "the best of both worlds" and that NZ could benefit, which he also tempered by some more cautious comments.

There is a view that we were best left out of it. It's just not strongly articulated in this article and certainly doesn't merit the headline given the article's content. So, naturally enough I'm left asking "Why?". Oh that's right, Ardern's government fed the media 100 million.

ynot
18-09-2021, 08:41 AM
I think you'll find its not just RNZ saying the AUKUS agreement will result in good outcomes for NZ. Many business commentators were quick to point this out & other media are too.

Why? Because how do you think China will react to those countries who are behaving increasingly belligerently toward China, (and remember the US,UK & Australia were the first & most eager to invade Iraq & Afghanistan)?

With China buying around a third of our exports, NZ would want to think seriously before joining this military alliance against China.
Our independent stance looking increasingly like being rewarded by China while Australia punished further.
You only have to look at how much better the NZ economy has faired recently than the Australian economy with it's muscular attitude to China (& resulting falling exports of Iron ore & other exports to China) .
You would not want to be heavily invested in any Australian company dependent on exports to China after this.
Whereas NZ is likely to benefit.
Was it just coincidence later the same day this was announced, MFAT received a formal request from China to join the CPTPP ?

So I think the accusation the RNZ is spinning a story linked to a bribe from the govt is a wee bit off the mark.


BTW, even Keating has said Australia's obsession with nuclear submarines is absurd , the sub's projected to cost about $90 billion plus $145 billion to maintain over their life cycle.

What's NZ's entire defence budget, about $4 billion?
And Chinese military is standing still ? I don't think so.

BDL
18-09-2021, 08:41 AM
I think you'll find its not just RNZ saying the AUKUS agreement will result in good outcomes for NZ. Many business commentators were quick to point this out & other media are too.

Why? Because how do you think China will react to those countries who are behaving increasingly belligerently toward China, (and remember the US,UK & Australia were the first & most eager to invade Iraq & Afghanistan)?

With China buying around a third of our exports, NZ would want to think seriously before joining this military alliance against China.
Our independent stance looking increasingly like being rewarded by China while Australia punished further.
You only have to look at how much better the NZ economy has faired recently than the Australian economy with it's muscular attitude to China (& resulting falling exports of Iron ore & other exports to China) .
You would not want to be heavily invested in any Australian company dependent on exports to China after this.
Whereas NZ is likely to benefit.
Was it just coincidence later the same day this was announced, MFAT received a formal request from China to join the CPTPP ?

So I think the accusation the RNZ is spinning a story linked to a bribe from the govt is a wee bit off the mark.


BTW, even Keating has said Australia's obsession with nuclear submarines is absurd , the sub's projected to cost about $90 billion plus $145 billion to maintain over their life cycle.

What's NZ's entire defence budget, about $4 billion?

You honestly don't see any threat from China? I think NZ is being very nieve and ignorant, for money......

jonu
18-09-2021, 08:46 AM
Here's two more articles from one of the Ardern government's propaganda mouthpieces.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-90-project-should-i-get-vaccinated-where-do-i-start-your-questions-answered/J2OYRSJO3CZIWYW4PRFHDEQKTU/

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-the-90-project-why-nzs-vaccination-drive-must-shoot-for-the-moon/IKIQQ5DFKD4XB34H2FQ7I7GIUI/

You may agree with the sentiment expressed. But since when are our national newspapers the PR arm of the government? Note the advertising banners across the top espousing the same message as in the article. Is that coincidence? Does anyone wonder why? Does the fact Ardern paid them 100 million have anything to do with it?

That's on top of the government being their biggest advertiser at the moment. All those Covid banners don't come for free.

Bjauck
18-09-2021, 09:01 AM
You honestly don't see any threat from China? I think NZ is being very nieve and ignorant, for money...... Will global Pax Sinensis be worse than Pax Americana or Pax Britannica before that?

BDL
18-09-2021, 09:08 AM
Will global Pax Sinensis be worse than Pax Americana or Pax Britannica before that?

Don't even know what you are trying to get at there.

BDL
18-09-2021, 09:11 AM
The importance of the Fourth Estate :

The term Fourth Estate or fourth power refers to the press and news media both in explicit capacity of advocacy and implicit ability to frame political issues. Though it is not formally recognized as a part of a political system, it wields significant indirect social influence.

I wonder what 100m can get you.....

fungus pudding
18-09-2021, 09:17 AM
The importance of the Fourth Estate :

The term Fourth Estate or fourth power refers to the press and news media both in explicit capacity of advocacy and implicit ability to frame political issues. Though it is not formally recognized as a part of a political system, it wields significant indirect social influence.

I wonder what 100m can get you.....

Should they not be reranked for modern times. Perhaps the 2cnd estate?

Panda-NZ-
18-09-2021, 10:06 AM
Here's two more articles from one of the Ardern government's propaganda mouthpieces.

The media is significantly worse in Australia.

They wouldn't report on rape allegations on a particular cabinet minister, or the other misconduct of people in the government who pretend to be christians.
They won't report on the national debt Australia has accumulated compared to the previous government.


I prefer Micheal west, independent journalist.

https://www.youtube.com/c/TheWestReport/videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgsqhKmohH4)

ynot
18-09-2021, 10:19 AM
The media is significantly worse in Australia.

They wouldn't report on rape allegations on a particular cabinet minister, or the other misconduct of people in the government who pretend to be christians.
They won't report on the national debt Australia has accumulated compared to the previous government.


I prefer Micheal west, independent journalist.

https://www.youtube.com/c/TheWestReport/videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgsqhKmohH4)
Whats Australia got to do with it. We are discussing our woke government.

dobby41
18-09-2021, 12:32 PM
I wonder what 100m can get you.....

It can't get Hosking taken off air!

Balance
18-09-2021, 12:40 PM
https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2021/09/maori-home-ownership-whaanga-sisters/

Cindy & her huge promise of housing solution and affordability - now a complete housing disaster.

Well done, Cindy! Takes a special kind of incompetence and a complete nincompoop to turn a self-described crisis into a total disaster.

Kiwibuild, anyone?

jonu
18-09-2021, 01:21 PM
Does any one else find it odd that, after months of Ardern and Hipkins refusing to put a target on vaccination levels, it is Andrew Little who finally starts touting 90% (presumably of those eligible) alongside a PR campaign calling for the same?

Oh, and the Herald giving an "explainer" (read government propaganda) alongside it.

Where were Ardern and Hipkins? Keeping at arm's length in case it turns to custard? Did Little drawer the short straw?

Bjauck
18-09-2021, 02:04 PM
Don't even know what you are trying to get at there. During "Pax Britannica" UK domination of the World, Aotearoa NZ ended up being colonised and was subsequently taken into two World Wars. During "Pax Americana" the Americans used nuclear bombs and undertook a nuclear weapons race with the Soviets. What will the upcoming "Pax Sinensis" bring?

Bjauck
18-09-2021, 02:10 PM
With France's reaction to AUKUS threatening the Australia free trade deal currently being negotiated with the EU, will that create more opportunities for NZ? Or will NZ negotiators find that they get hit by fallout as result of NZ's close relationship with Australia?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-18/france-withdraws-ambassadors-over-submarines-deal/100473106

macduffy
18-09-2021, 02:17 PM
Does any one else find it odd that, after months of Ardern and Hipkins refusing to put a target on vaccination levels, it is Andrew Little who finally starts touting 90% (presumably of those eligible) alongside a PR campaign calling for the same?

Oh, and the Herald giving an "explainer" (read government propaganda) alongside it.

Where were Ardern and Hipkins? Keeping at arm's length in case it turns to custard? Did Little drawer the short straw?

Yes and yes. Needs a little explanation.

dobby41
18-09-2021, 02:42 PM
Does any one else find it odd that, after months of Ardern and Hipkins refusing to put a target on vaccination levels, it is Andrew Little who finally starts touting 90% (presumably of those eligible) alongside a PR campaign calling for the same?

Oh, and the Herald giving an "explainer" (read government propaganda) alongside it.

Where were Ardern and Hipkins? Keeping at arm's length in case it turns to custard? Did Little drawer the short straw?

This is after Ashley saying the other day in the standup (with Robertson) that he'd like to see 90% or more (of population or eligible?) vaccinated.
It's a good target, 100% is better, but can we get there?
If we don't, does it mean we don't open up?
Would 85% be 'turned to custard' in your view? How about 87%, or 80%? (Even Israel has 'only' managed 69% of pop, and the UK 71%.)
This is the problem with a target, isn't it!

Blue Skies
18-09-2021, 02:48 PM
Does any one else find it odd that, after months of Ardern and Hipkins refusing to put a target on vaccination levels, it is Andrew Little who finally starts touting 90% (presumably of those eligible) alongside a PR campaign calling for the same?

Oh, and the Herald giving an "explainer" (read government propaganda) alongside it.

Where were Ardern and Hipkins? Keeping at arm's length in case it turns to custard? Did Little drawer the short straw?



That's not quite correct & here's explanation as I see it.

What Little actually said was he couldn't see there being a return to Level 4, once 90% of pop vaccinated.

That's nothing about Levels 3, 2 1. & simply an encouragement for vax hesitant to get vaccinated.

Also while Grant Robertson (as Deputy PM & therefore speaking for the govt ) backed the Herald campaign as he said he would back any campaign which encouraged vaccination, he declined to say 90% was the target because they want to go higher that 90%.

We go higher than 90% with childhood vaccination rates so although highly ambitious, it is possible & worth aiming at.


Are you sure you're not looking for anything to back up deeply help preconceived negative views of the govt rather than rational based criticism ?

Panda-NZ-
18-09-2021, 03:06 PM
With France's reaction to AUKUS threatening the Australia free trade deal currently being negotiated with the EU, will that create more opportunities for NZ? Or will NZ negotiators find that they get hit by fallout as result of NZ's close relationship with Australia?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-18/france-withdraws-ambassadors-over-submarines-deal/100473106

If following a conventional military approach then Europe could want bases to be set up in Alaska to flank Russia or pressure China to get more concessions from them.

Though I would like to see a disinformation campaign against Putin using some of the same tactics they are using in other countries elections. In this case the ends justify the means. Social chaos can be created with only a laptop and internet connection and do far more than a submarine.


America doesn't want china to topple though because it will mean less cheap labour and an inflation spiral.

jonu
18-09-2021, 03:23 PM
This is after Ashley saying the other day in the standup (with Robertson) that he'd like to see 90% or more (of population or eligible?) vaccinated.
It's a good target, 100% is better, but can we get there?
If we don't, does it mean we don't open up?
Would 85% be 'turned to custard' in your view? How about 87%, or 80%? (Even Israel has 'only' managed 69% of pop, and the UK 71%.)
This is the problem with a target, isn't it!

As is usual when this lot have painted themselves into a corner, there is some blurred messaging and then a full on assault with the new propaganda. That appears to be the case here, hence why at this stage Ardern and Hipkins are at arm's length.

The fact that the Herald appear to have been brought on board with articles that suddenly appear with a 90% target, alongside Government Covid adds targeting 90%, is of course entirely coincidental! I have a bridge for sale in London you may be interested in as well.

Panda-NZ-
18-09-2021, 03:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuP4jOc4ibo

Only months out from an Australian election so the submarine deal comes at a good time for ScoMo.

To be delivered sometime after 2050, after he's long deceased.

dobby41
18-09-2021, 04:09 PM
As is usual when this lot have painted themselves into a corner, there is some blurred messaging and then a full on assault with the new propaganda. That appears to be the case here, hence why at this stage Ardern and Hipkins are at arm's length.

The fact that the Herald appear to have been brought on board with articles that suddenly appear with a 90% target, alongside Government Covid adds targeting 90%, is of course entirely coincidental! I have a bridge for sale in London you may be interested in as well.
You don't have an answer to Blue Skies callout of your message accuracy?
You seem to have taken my comment as total support of the Govt - I am merely adding (Ashley's comment) and asking you a question, which I don't expect you'd answer.

I haven't seen the Govt covid ads targeting 90%, or maybe you are calling the NZME campaign an ad? (But you did say alongside so I read that they have actual ads which I haven't seen.)

jonu
18-09-2021, 04:48 PM
You don't have an answer to Blue Skies callout of your message accuracy?
You seem to have taken my comment as total support of the Govt - I am merely adding (Ashley's comment) and asking you a question, which I don't expect you'd answer.

I haven't seen the Govt covid ads targeting 90%, or maybe you are calling the NZME campaign an ad? (But you did say alongside so I read that they have actual ads which I haven't seen.)

I figured I answered you and Blue Skies with the one post....I'm efficient like that....i don't work for the government.

The 90% target campaign is NZME's own? Seeing as it is run in the same place as all the government's Covid ads as a banner above the story, I assumed it was part of their normal advertising. Am I wrong about that? If I am, I guess it reinforces how closely the two are joined at the hip. It's impossible to tell them apart.

dobby41
18-09-2021, 05:10 PM
The 90% target campaign is NZME's own? Seeing as it is run in the same place as all the government's Covid ads as a banner above the story, I assumed it was part of their normal advertising. Am I wrong about that? If I am, I guess it reinforces how closely the two are joined at the hip. It's impossible to tell them apart.
So where you said "alongside Government Covid adds targeting 90%" you didn't mean that they literally had an ad (ads not adds) that targeted 90%? That was your addition?

jonu
18-09-2021, 05:23 PM
So where you said "alongside Government Covid adds targeting 90%" you didn't mean that they literally had an ad (ads not adds) that targeted 90%? That was your addition?

FFS dobby41, there was a banner ad across the top! Are things so desperate that you need to split hairs in Ardern's defence? She has a propaganda machine that we, as taxpayers, funded to the tune of 100 million dollars, not withstanding the millions she is already spending across every government department....all part of the most "clear and transparent" government ever.

Where are she and Hipkins when it comes to the 90%? Where are she and Hipkins when it comes to the repeatedly asked data sharing? Presumably busy drafting exactly how they mean to share it in the Domestic Passport!

BTW, the fact that I'm having to copy and paste across two threads (this and the Labour thread) shows how tightly bound Ardern's strategy is. Remember the Covid Election? (Ardern's words). She is the most Machiavellian politician since Machiavelli.

dobby41
18-09-2021, 05:51 PM
FFS dobby41, there was a banner ad across the top! Are things so desperate that you need to split hairs in Ardern's defence?

I don't see it as splitting hairs - you suggested that there is a Govt ad targeting 90% when there isn't!
Who made the banner and what it says I have no idea (I use ABP so probably miss them).
You are happy to be loose with the truth.
You analyse every word through your lens of the preconceived negative views of the Govt and are unable to see anything else.
You take them out of context to suit your narrative.
You seem to be getting as bad as balance harping on the way you do - and in 2 threads no less.
I'm out of this pointless bit of the discussion.

jonu
18-09-2021, 06:35 PM
I don't see it as splitting hairs - you suggested that there is a Govt ad targeting 90% when there isn't!
Who made the banner and what it says I have no idea (I use ABP so probably miss them).
You are happy to be loose with the truth.
You analyse every word through your lens of the preconceived negative views of the Govt and are unable to see anything else.
You take them out of context to suit your narrative.
You seem to be getting as bad as balance harping on the way you do - and in 2 threads no less.
I'm out of this pointless bit of the discussion.

If it's not the government or the Herald....who would it be?

Blue Skies
18-09-2021, 07:05 PM
There is a view that we were best left out of it. It's just not strongly articulated in this article and certainly doesn't merit the headline given the article's content. So, naturally enough I'm left asking "Why?". Oh that's right, Ardern's government fed the media 100 million.


I'm curious where you get this often repeated figure of $100 million bribe to the media from.

It seems wildly inaccurate though am happy to be corrected.



Govt support to the media is clearly published & transparent for the last financial year.

The big media companies recieved -
TVNZ was biggest beneficiary with $5 million, + $1.1 million advertising spend.
Stuff, $2.37 million, + $1.15 million advertising spend
NZME (Herald and ZB radio ) $2.19 million + $1.9 million advertising spend

The rest spread among small publications, paywalls etc.

(In 2020 the govt announced a $50 million support package to help media through the Covid pandemic. Of that $50 million, $21 million was to cut transmission fees ).


Important to be reasonably in the ball park esp when often repeated, otherwise people might begin to accept $100 million as fact.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300279296/covid19-the-government-media-bailout--who-got-what

Panda-NZ-
18-09-2021, 07:32 PM
Yep lots of funding included for newstalk ZB.

jonu
18-09-2021, 07:43 PM
I'm curious where you get this often repeated figure of $100 million bribe to the media from.

It seems wildly inaccurate though am happy to be corrected.



Govt support to the media is clearly published & transparent for the last financial year.

The big media companies recieved -
TVNZ was biggest beneficiary with $5 million, + $1.1 million advertising spend.
Stuff, $2.37 million, + $1.15 million advertising spend
NZME (Herald and ZB radio ) $2.19 million + $1.9 million advertising spend

The rest spread among small publications, paywalls etc.

(In 2020 the govt announced a $50 million support package to help media through the Covid pandemic. Of that $50 million, $21 million was to cut transmission fees ).


Important to be reasonably in the ball park esp when often repeated, otherwise people might begin to accept $100 million as fact.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300279296/covid19-the-government-media-bailout--who-got-what

You are correct, in 2020 Ardern's government announced a 50 million package, just months before the election. This, at a time Robertson told us the economy was doing well.

As I suspect you know, Labour has followed this up with a further 55 million. So, i was short by 5 million. I will try to remember to say 105 million in future.

fungus pudding
18-09-2021, 07:55 PM
You are correct, in 2020 Ardern's government announced a 50 million package, just months before the election. This, at a time Robertson told us the economy was doing well.

As I suspect you know, Labour has followed this up with a further 55 million. So, i was short by 5 million. I will try to remember to say 105 million in future.

Better still make it 110 million for a while to cover the shortfall.

Panda-NZ-
18-09-2021, 08:16 PM
55m million (17m per year) over three years administered by NZ on air to provide local content.

Panda-NZ-
18-09-2021, 08:20 PM
Under National we saw the sad display of "X factor NZ" alongside reality tv shows.

Hopefully this can provide some more acceptable programs.

Blue Skies
18-09-2021, 08:31 PM
You are correct, in 2020 Ardern's government announced a 50 million package, just months before the election. This, at a time Robertson told us the economy was doing well.

As I suspect you know, Labour has followed this up with a further 55 million. So, i was short by 5 million. I will try to remember to say 105 million in future.


Cheers Jonu, it was a genuine question, think I read somewhere they've given out around $31 of the $50 million last year & I wasn't aware of the recent announcement of $55 million spread over the next 3 years.

Of course I completely disagree with your claim it has any influence over content though.

Balance
18-09-2021, 08:53 PM
Of course I completely disagree with your claim it has any influence over content though.

Of course you would.

Indoctrinated devotees seldom question what is obvious to others.

jonu
18-09-2021, 08:54 PM
Cheers Jonu, it was a genuine question, think I read somewhere they've given out around $31 of the $50 million last year & I wasn't aware of the recent announcement of $55 million spread over the next 3 years.

Of course I completely disagree with your claim it has any influence over content though.

How can you disagree with the content claim? Some of it was tagged for particular content around Maori issues.

Blue Skies
18-09-2021, 10:42 PM
How can you disagree with the content claim? Some of it was tagged for particular content around Maori issues.


Ha, well some of it was also 'tagged' for Kiwi Gardener, Rugby News, NZ Geographic, Wine NZ, NZ Petrolhead, NZ 4WD, Bay of Plenty Business publications, NZ Business Management, etc, etc with particular content around their particular issues,
- but due to the Covid Support Package being framed as a bribe, I presumed we were talking about influencing content to be Labour propaganda.

Maori issues are New Zealand issues & need a voice too.

Just as the govt provides funding for Mike Hoskings or Barry Soper, two of the govt's staunchest critics through NZME, or provides funding for playlists solely of Kiwi Music through NZ On Air, the govt has no control or influence over the content of what any of our media broadcast or publish in a way which I think you're implying.

Joshuatree
18-09-2021, 10:49 PM
Yes thanks for some reason and balance Blueskies ,it negates the paranoia and spin .

Bjauck
19-09-2021, 09:04 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuP4jOc4ibo

Only months out from an Australian election so the submarine deal comes at a good time for ScoMo.

To be delivered sometime after 2050, after he's long deceased. Do you know about ScoMo's health we don't?

I wouldn't be surprised if The Americans were not the main force urging the Australians to break their enormous French naval contract. The USA would not want Australia to fall too much out of their direct sphere of influence. It also means US companies benefit from the work. This nuclear sub deal ensures that Australia will remain in lock step with the USA. Militarily, the UK basically does what the USA wants them to do, perhaps more so after Brexit. There will be some spin off too for UK companies too.

It reinforces that NZ and Canada are not in the inner circle of the five eyes nations.

jonu
19-09-2021, 09:33 AM
Ha, well some of it was also 'tagged' for Kiwi Gardener, Rugby News, NZ Geographic, Wine NZ, NZ Petrolhead, NZ 4WD, Bay of Plenty Business publications, NZ Business Management, etc, etc with particular content around their particular issues,
- but due to the Covid Support Package being framed as a bribe, I presumed we were talking about influencing content to be Labour propaganda.

Maori issues are New Zealand issues & need a voice too.

Just as the govt provides funding for Mike Hoskings or Barry Soper, two of the govt's staunchest critics through NZME, or provides funding for playlists solely of Kiwi Music through NZ On Air, the govt has no control or influence over the content of what any of our media broadcast or publish in a way which I think you're implying.

I guess I'll have to repost this article from journalist Graham Adams which lays it all out.

https://democracyproject.nz/2021/09/14/graham-adams-the-double-edged-sword-of-the-55m-government-journalism-fund-cuts-deep/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=graham-adams-the-double-edged-sword-of-the-55m-government-journalism-fund-cuts-deep

It even includes a quote from former Labour Minister Michael Bassett from his column named "Media Greedies" where he says " the reason “the handouts have been introduced is almost certainly a ministerial intention to keep the media sweet during the run-up to the election”.

He concluded: “The media who have put out their hands and cheerfully pocketed taxpayer funds they don’t need have only themselves to blame if the public smells a rat and begins to doubt their message.”

It would appear there are some in the public space with the integrity to call it what it is. A bribe! BTW they are talking about the second 55 million tranche here!

Balance
19-09-2021, 09:39 AM
I guess I'll have to repost this article from journalist Graham Adams which lays it all out.

https://democracyproject.nz/2021/09/14/graham-adams-the-double-edged-sword-of-the-55m-government-journalism-fund-cuts-deep/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=graham-adams-the-double-edged-sword-of-the-55m-government-journalism-fund-cuts-deep

It even includes a quote from former Labour Minister Michael Bassett from his column named "Media Greedies" where he says " the reason “the handouts have been introduced is almost certainly a ministerial intention to keep the media sweet during the run-up to the election”.

He concluded: “The media who have put out their hands and cheerfully pocketed taxpayer funds they don’t need have only themselves to blame if the public smells a rat and begins to doubt their message.”

It would appear there are some in the public space with the integrity to call it what it is. A bribe! BTW they are talking about the second 55 million tranche here!

And between the Michael Bassetts of the world vs the Indoctrinated devotees like Joshuatree & Blue Skies, posters reading this thread know who has it right about how the fourth estate is being compromised by Cindy’s bribes.

Balance
19-09-2021, 09:43 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/451367/new-zealand-losing-migrant-rest-home-staff-to-canada-uk-due-to-miq-unavailability

The elderly & vulnerable given no special consideration by Cindy.

Meanwhile, Kris ‘useless’ Faafoi, token brown minister, is nowhere to be seen with the immigration mess the country is in. Why?

davflaws
19-09-2021, 09:52 AM
Cold, damp and mouldy. Some of that will be structural and up to the landlord to fix. Most of it is the way occupants live.
Yup - the miserable bastards keep cooking and washing - and breathing -and some of them would rather put kai on the table than pay to run the heater.

Blue Skies
19-09-2021, 10:15 AM
And between the Michael Bassetts of the world vs the Indoctrinated devotees like Joshuatree & Blue Skies, posters reading this thread know who has it right about how the fourth estate is being compromised by Cindy’s bribes.


Michael Bassett is shall we say an 'unusual man' & while am sure he has a great following among the Hobson's Pledge crowd, none of the rest of us have any respect for his weird racist opinions.

Note, NZME withdrew racist articles he has written from their website & even apologised for carrying them.

Perhaps Mr Bassett carries a bit of a grudge against the media now?

Balance
19-09-2021, 10:20 AM
Michael Bassett is shall we say an 'unusual man' & while am sure he has a great following among the Hobson's Pledge crowd, none of the rest of us have any respect for his weird racist opinions.

Note, NZME withdrew racist articles he has written from their website & even apologised for carrying them.

Perhaps Mr Bassett carries a bit of a grudge against the media now?

Written as expected by an indoctrinated Cindy devotee.

Panda-NZ-
19-09-2021, 11:29 AM
Australians don't have a good record of winning conflicts they are involved in ..

There are more effective ways to go after China such as an engineered internal coup against Xi, social media information campaigns, take down their great firewall, and give automatic asylum to chinese dissidents.

Google and Apple removed an app against Russia's putin which was pretty shameful too. It's all about contracts and money as you said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/09/17/navalny-google-apple-app-russia/

NZ is not wealthy enough to participate.

davflaws
19-09-2021, 11:43 AM
Michael Bassett is shall we say an 'unusual man' & while am sure he has a great following among the Hobson's Pledge crowd, none of the rest of us have any respect for his weird racist opinions.

Note, NZME withdrew racist articles he has written from their website & even apologised for carrying them.

Perhaps Mr Bassett carries a bit of a grudge against the media now?

That's Dr Bassett - and although it is true that he is a former Labour minister, so was the founder of ACT - Sir Roger Douglas. Their politics align very well.

artemis
19-09-2021, 12:43 PM
Yup - the miserable bastards keep cooking and washing - and breathing -and some of them would rather put kai on the table than pay to run the heater.

That's correct. What do you suggest the occupants do to remedy? And if a rental avoid a bill from the landlord to fix damp and mouldy caused by tenant actions.

Bjauck
19-09-2021, 02:04 PM
That's correct. What do you suggest the occupants do to remedy? And if a rental avoid a bill from the landlord to fix damp and mouldy caused by tenant actions.
True, poverty, and the expensive accommodation environment is not the Landlords' fault or problem. Landlords as investors operating within the law, have the priority to preserve and to optimise their investment returns.

Logen Ninefingers
19-09-2021, 03:45 PM
This business of calling everyone a ‘racist’ who doesn’t agree with a certain interpretation of ‘The Treaty’ is just childish name-calling. The only reason why Leftists and Activists are constantly using terms such as racist, race baiting, and dog whistle is because they want to invalidate and shut down opposition to ‘co-governance’.

People opposing co-governance do not wish to pursue a racist agenda, they only wish to preserve our democracy & ensure equality for everyone in NZ. To that end, they do not want the elected government involved in ‘co-governance’ with unelected tribal supremo’s.

We don’t even know if the agenda being advanced by stealth by Labour is supported by the majority of Maori: effectively it is a small cabal of Maori intellectual and political elites who are advancing the co-governance plan in conjunction with a Labour outfit who will pay any price to secure enduring support from Maori.

Bjauck
19-09-2021, 04:51 PM
....
People opposing co-governance do not wish to pursue a racist agenda, they only wish to preserve our democracy & ensure equality for everyone in NZ. To that end, they do not want the elected government involved in ‘co-governance’ with unelected tribal supremo’s. ...

"Equality for everyone in NZ" means different things to different people too. What government policies, tax settings, affirmative action and remedial action, to correct past iniquities inherited by the current generations, ensures equality for all today?

Logen Ninefingers
19-09-2021, 07:00 PM
"Equality for everyone in NZ" means different things to different people too. What government policies, tax settings, affirmative action and remedial action, to correct past iniquities inherited by the current generations, ensures equality for all today?

'Co-governance' between the elected government and unelected Tribal power-brokers will only create fresh injustices and divisions.

Racism would be saying or believing that one 'racial' group is inferior to another.

Racism is not anything to do with raising legitimate questions about a 'co-governance' agenda being instituted by stealth. It is the opposite in fact.

Bjauck
19-09-2021, 08:28 PM
'Co-governance' between the elected government and unelected Tribal power-brokers will only create fresh injustices and divisions.

Racism would be saying or believing that one 'racial' group is inferior to another.

Racism is not anything to do with raising legitimate questions about a 'co-governance' agenda being instituted by stealth. It is the opposite in fact. Co-governance depends on the interpretation of the first article of the Maori language version of The Treaty of Waitangi. The second article refers to Maori taonga. So at minimum, iwi consultation with regards taonga is needed. I agree that questioning the extent of iwi involvement is more interpretative rather than racist

There are many factors that contribute to whether there is inequality in NZ. Co-governance is just one of those factors. NZ is.currently an unequal society as a result of many factors, most of which have nothing to do with co-governance. Would co-governance actually result in less inequality?

fungus pudding
20-09-2021, 08:11 AM
Co-governance depends on the interpretation of the first article of the Maori language version of The Treaty of Waitangi. The second article refers to Maori taonga. So at minimum, iwi consultation with regards taonga is needed. I agree that questioning the extent of iwi involvement is more interpretative rather than racist

There are many factors that contribute to whether there is inequality in NZ. Co-governance is just one of those factors. NZ is.currently an unequal society as a result of many factors, most of which have nothing to do with co-governance. Would co-governance actually result in less inequality?

No. Equality is nonsense. People are not born equal - but in our society we have equal opportunity, which is all that matters. But that's not to say we all benefit from the opportunity we have.

Bjauck
20-09-2021, 08:41 AM
No. Equality is nonsense. People are not born equal - but in our society we have equal opportunity, which is all that matters. But that's not to say we all benefit from the opportunity we have. Obviously we are not clones.

The goal (at least for most people?) may well be for everyone to have equality (of opportunity, treatment and being able to achieve potential.)

The reality is that this does not occur. Narrowing the gaps comes up against resistance from vested interests and those who have benefited more from the status quo.

fungus pudding
20-09-2021, 08:47 AM
Obviously we are not clones.

The goal (at least for most people?) may well be for everyone to have equality (of opportunity, treatment and being able to achieve potential.)

The reality is that this does not occur. Narrowing the gaps comes up against resistance from vested interests and those who have benefited more from the status quo.

Sure makes the American constitution a barrel of hogswash. 'All men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.'

BDL
20-09-2021, 09:07 AM
Obviously we are not clones.

The goal (at least for most people?) may well be for everyone to have equality (of opportunity, treatment and being able to achieve potential.)

The reality is that this does not occur. Narrowing the gaps comes up against resistance from vested interests and those who have benefited more from the status quo.

Yes, that is the mantra today, "critical race theory". Just another theory that Labour has taken as gospel. There is a little bit of truth in most things.
But maybe, some people just try harder than others .....

Getty
20-09-2021, 09:11 AM
Obviously we are not clones.

The goal (at least for most people?) may well be for everyone to have equality (of opportunity, treatment and being able to achieve potential.)

The reality is that this does not occur. Narrowing the gaps comes up against resistance from vested interests and those who have benefited more from the status quo.

The gaps dont narrow, despite various govt attempts for good reason.

The one's in front, would have to stop, to let those who are slow by nature & nurture to catch up, and that would be of no benefit to society whatsoever.

Why should the leaders & go getters have a handbrake imposed on them?

davflaws
20-09-2021, 09:25 AM
The gaps dont narrow, despite various govt attempts for good reason.

The one's in front, would have to stop, to let those who are slow by nature & nurture to catch up, and that would be of no benefit to society whatsoever.

Why should the leaders & go getters have a handbrake imposed on them?

That way of framing the question produces an answer that serves your (percieved) self interest.

A more equal society is better for everyone (leaders and go getters included). A more useful question might be - "How can govt improve the economic and social condition of those on the bottom of the heap?

For people who have experienced colonisation, one effective answer seems to be empowerment. He Puapua provides some suggestions as how that might proceed, and a degree of co governance has already been introduced in some areas in Education and Health and Justice. It works.