PDA

View Full Version : Labour govt 2020-23



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 [14] 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29

dobby41
02-10-2021, 04:24 PM
What about those who died due to the delays in obtaining treatment in NZ due to the prolonged lockdowns?

Though not good for anyone who did die the Excess Mortality is mostly negative here.
13027

Panda-NZ-
02-10-2021, 08:17 PM
Though not good for anyone who did die the Excess Mortality is mostly negative here.


How many can't get an appointment because the only times are during work hours. Well, problem solved.

BlackPeter
03-10-2021, 10:35 AM
Wow. What a great achievement. Good you’re pleased

I didn't say that I am pleased ... but it appears to be hard to bring irony across on social media, particularly if the responses come already after reading only the first sentence.

Cheers though for at least copying the whole post. :p; read it again ;):

Blue Skies
03-10-2021, 12:00 PM
What about those who died due to the delays in obtaining treatment in NZ due to the prolonged lockdowns?


This was a common misunderstanding.

I think you'ld be hard pressed to find a single person who died because of delays in obtaining treatment due to Lockdown.

Some had treatment interrupted or delayed where Specialists weighed up the risk of the patient becoming immunosuppressed due to treatment while Covid was spreading in the community, as long as the delay had no detrimental effect of the patients outcome. This was to protect the patient in case they caught Covid while immunosuppressed.

But where delays in treatment would result in a poor outcome, patients continued their treatment right through lockdown.

Yes, there would have been some temporary delays in routine things like colonoscopies & mammograms etc, but unlikely for anyone who had advanced symptoms.

dobby41
03-10-2021, 04:43 PM
How many can't get an appointment because the only times are during work hours. Well, problem solved.

No idea and not what I was responding to - just giving some facts rather than opining.

Panda-NZ-
03-10-2021, 04:49 PM
FP has a problem when I don't quote apprently, so I try to obtain his approval by throwing some random quotes out there .

Balance
05-10-2021, 09:19 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126575243/51m-spent-on-axed-auckland-harbour-cycling-bridge-project-residents-in-limbo

$51m wasted so far on the Auckland harbour cycle bridge, now abandoned.

Cindy & her incompetents sure know how to pee taxpayers’ funds down the proverbial.

All spin & no delivery as usual.

fungus pudding
05-10-2021, 11:19 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126575243/51m-spent-on-axed-auckland-harbour-cycling-bridge-project-residents-in-limbo

$51m wasted so far on the Auckland harbour cycle bridge, now abandoned.

Cindy & her incompetents sure know how to pee taxpayers’ funds down the proverbial.

All spin & no delivery as usual.

At last - taxpayers can rejoice that Labour is no longer wasting their money. No siree! Only worthwhile programs will be funded.

13032

13037

fungus pudding
05-10-2021, 05:09 PM
Why do Labour want more Maori speakers than there are Maoris?

https://www.labour.org.nz/maori

BlackPeter
05-10-2021, 05:50 PM
Why do Labour want more Maori speakers than there are Maoris?

https://www.labour.org.nz/maori

To be fair ... there are as well more English speakers than there are English people in the country, aren't they?

fungus pudding
05-10-2021, 07:07 PM
To be fair ... there are as well more English speakers than there are English people in the country, aren't they?

How is that 'being fair'? English is a universal language, widely spoken as the primary language in many countries and is therefore of immense practical value. Maori by comparison is one of the least spoken languages, and of no value, other than sentimental and historic. No comparison.

Balance
05-10-2021, 07:53 PM
Why do Labour want more Maori speakers than there are Maoris?

https://www.labour.org.nz/maori

Cindy will do anything to corner the Maori vote, the pakeha vote being split down the middle.

That way, she can continue to spin and not have to deliver.

iceman
06-10-2021, 07:53 AM
Hipkins acknowledges this morning that the Government did a deal with Waikato Mongrel Mob boss Sonny Fatu to enter Auckland in return for “a good degree of cooperation” from the Mob in disclosing the movements of their COVID infected members. No doubt negotiating with the Mob to try to get some places of interest to give to Waikato residents that are fast losing patience. Incredible

Getty
06-10-2021, 08:08 AM
Do the so called 'hard to reach' communities of Mr Fatu, and others, have any trouble accessing Lotto outlets, liquor stores, KFC and other takeaways?

Do those businesses have to do anything extra to attract such special needs people?

Do they have to have a Maori focus unit?

Are they Maori by Maori?

Guess what, you have to spend money in those outlets, but the taxpayer provides a jab outlet for nothing.

Cant the bullies of society face the needle?

Are they so stupid, they cant see a jab can keep them healthy, some of their other choices make them sick?

Long overdue for some push back on the condescending BS of Little Red Robbing Hoods mob.

As usual, the dross of society are a drain on everyone else.

ynot
06-10-2021, 08:28 AM
Hipkins acknowledges this morning that the Government did a deal with Waikato Mongrel Mob boss Sonny Fatu to enter Auckland in return for “a good degree of cooperation” from the Mob in disclosing the movements of their COVID infected members. No doubt negotiating with the Mob to try to get some places of interest to give to Waikato residents that are fast losing patience. Incredible
Anyone with half a brain could see that our current gang issue could have easily been rectified 30 years ago had previous governments had the fortitude to take steps to curtail their antisocial behaviour. Bloody joke.

fungus pudding
06-10-2021, 08:30 AM
Anyone with half a brain could see that our current gang issue could have easily been rectified 30 years ago had previous governments had the fortitude to take steps to curtail their antisocial behaviour. Bloody joke.

What steps do you suggest govts. could or should have taken?

Getty
06-10-2021, 09:14 AM
momma's boys. a la Fatu.

Isn't it a shame they have been colonised?

They're coming home tonight to meet mum.

Bjauck
06-10-2021, 09:16 AM
How is that 'being fair'? English is a universal language, widely spoken as the primary language in many countries and is therefore of immense practical value. Maori by comparison is one of the least spoken languages, and of no value, other than sentimental and historic. No comparison.
Your “whinging poms” want their language back - it is time for Pakehas to start to speak the native tongue. Treat English as the foreign Lingua Franca that it is!

fungus pudding
06-10-2021, 09:31 AM
Your “whinging poms” want their language back - it is time for Pakehas to start to speak the native tongue. Treat English as the foreign Lingua Franca that it is!

No thanks. Don't like it. If I ever want to speak another language, it will be Spanish.

BTW - they're not 'my' whinging poms. They're for everybody to enjoy. But here's a nice wee newspaper article for you.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/poms-you-whinge-some-you-lose-some/2TELXUPGUFMFDERPUCYHUGXMQQ/


(The Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission said there the word Pom in itself was not deemed to be derogatory.

It could only be offensive if used with expletives such as "Pommy bastard".)

Bjauck
06-10-2021, 09:47 AM
No thanks. Don't like it. If I ever want to speak another language, it will be Spanish.

BTW - they're not 'my' whinging poms. They're for everybody to enjoy. But here's a nice wee newspaper article for you.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/poms-you-whinge-some-you-lose-some/2TELXUPGUFMFDERPUCYHUGXMQQ/


(The Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission said there the word Pom in itself was not deemed to be derogatory.

It could only be offensive if used with expletives such as "Pommy bastard".) Context is key.

A 15 year old article with respect to Australia was very informative :cool:

Use Italian to woo; French to dine; German to police; English to trade and Maori for nature…

Getty
06-10-2021, 09:56 AM
No thanks. Don't like it. If I ever want to speak another language, it will be Spanish.

BTW - they're not 'my' whinging poms. They're for everybody to enjoy. But here's a nice wee newspaper article for you.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/poms-you-whinge-some-you-lose-some/2TELXUPGUFMFDERPUCYHUGXMQQ/


(The Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission said there the word Pom in itself was not deemed to be derogatory.

It could only be offensive if used with expletives such as "Pommy bastard".)

That reminds me of some years ago, when a gorilla escaped from Sydney's Taronga Zoo, and made it to a nearby playground, where many kids were playing.
A crowd assembled as news got out, and terror gripped those there when the gorilla held a child hostage.

Just when it appeared the gorilla was about to tear the childs head off, out stepped a man from the crowd, and felled the gorilla with an almighty punch.

A newsman leapt from the crowd to engage with the hero, and told him what a brave, typically Australian deed he had done .
Well thanks for that, but I'm actually an Englishman, the man replied.
Thats ok, I'll include that in my story retorted the newsman.

Next morning, the headline ran in the Sydney Morning Herald,

POMMY BASTARD SLAYS CHILDS PET DOWN AT THE PARK!

fungus pudding
06-10-2021, 10:06 AM
Context is key.

A 15 year old article with respect to Australia was very informative :cool:


I'm pleased you found it informative. That's why it was there - to inform, or remind you and others how ridiculously sensitive we have become in the last few years.

Getty
06-10-2021, 10:52 AM
I'm wondering how you think the other side are different.

Nothing wrong with this since we're an egalitarian society but;

You had Sir Bill English with an english literature degree who worked as a farmer longer than at his low-level treasury role.
Then had stephen joyce with a zoology degree who was in a radio station.

The rest, gerry brownlee, paul goldsmith have achieved even less achieved than those two.

Stephen Joyce used what he had learnt in his zoology classes about loading animals into Arks, and absolutely nailed the Transport portfolio.

Talent is talent, regardless of your piece of paper.

I thank him every time I cruise down the Waikato Expressway at legal speed of 110 km/h.

If Julie Ann Genter had her way, we would have to do it on push bikes.

China has steered itself away from peasantry, some here in NZ want to take us back to it.

BlackPeter
06-10-2021, 11:29 AM
How is that 'being fair'? English is a universal language, widely spoken as the primary language in many countries and is therefore of immense practical value. Maori by comparison is one of the least spoken languages, and of no value, other than sentimental and historic. No comparison.

I don't contest that English is today a much more useful language as Maori ... as a means to communicate with our traditional trading partners and as the international language of science ... many centuries of suppressing, enslaving and occupying other cultures and people clearly paid off for the British ... but this was not your argument, was it?

I was just trying to put your argument into perspective.

Still not sure, whether a bunch of English speaking people are the best jurors to objectively assess whether it might be beneficial for others to learn Maori as well ... it is after all one of our official languages - and hey, it might be a sign of respect for the other part of our society as well as help to better talk with and understand some of our closer neighbors .... I think Maori is not too far away from e.g. Malay and / or Indonesian, and there are plenty of people speaking these languages.

Whatever it is - I come from a culture where it is quite normal to learn already at school several other foreign languages - and I can tell you, that although I didn't particularly enjoyed learning languages at school, I don't consider any of the languages I learned so far (Latin, English, Italian, Spanish, Chinese) as a waste of time ... each of them did help me to better understand other people and cultures, though admittedly the British with their imperial desires and their BREXIT mania still feel a bit strange to me ...). As well - if you speak two languages, learning a third is only half the effort and it helps you as well to better understand your mother tongue.

While I know that change is difficult and people tend to find millions of reasons to avoid it (and lets face it - New Zealand is a society where many people don't even speak one language properly) - why not give it at least a try to open our horizons? It is not that hard - according to Dr. Google are roughly 60% of the world population at least bilingual. We could do it as well, can't we?

Bjauck
06-10-2021, 11:43 AM
I'm pleased you found it informative. That's why it was there - to inform, or remind you and others how ridiculously sensitive we have become in the last few years.
Rather, today it is a question of calling out disempowering bigotry.

Bjauck
06-10-2021, 11:52 AM

While I know that change is difficult and people tend to find millions of reasons to avoid it (and lets face it - New Zealand is a society where many people don't even speak one language properly) - why not give it at least a try to open our horizons? It is not that hard - according to Dr. Google are roughly 60% of the world population at least bilingual. We could do it as well, can't we?I went to Sunday school as a child. While the ecclesiastical aspect was lost on me…the ex-military padre ended up teaching us English grammar and syntax, when he realised most of the class did not understand sufficient basic English to comprehend the Good News bible. It was so much more useful than actual English lessons at primary school.

fungus pudding
06-10-2021, 11:57 AM
I don't contest that English is today a much more useful language as Maori ... as a means to communicate with our traditional trading partners and as the international language of science ... many centuries of suppressing, enslaving and occupying other cultures and people clearly paid off for the British ... but this was not your argument, was it?

I was just trying to just put your argument into perspective.

Still not sure, whether a bunch of English speaking people are the best jurors to objectively assess whether it might be beneficial for others to learn Maori as well ... it is after all one of our official languages - and hey, it might be a sign of respect for the other part of our society as well as help to better talk with and understand some of our closer neighbors .... I think Maori is not too far away from e.g. Malay and / or Indonesian, and there are plenty of people speaking these languages.

Whatever it is - I come from a culture where it is quite normal to learn already at school several other foreign languages - and I can tell you, that although I didn't particularly enjoyed learning languages at school, I don't consider any of the languages I learned so far (Latin, English, Italian, Spanish, Chinese) as a waste of time ... each of them did help me to better understand other people and cultures, though admittedly the British with their imperial desires and their BREXIT mania still feel a bit strange to me ...). As well - if you speak two languages, learning a third is only half the effort and it helps you as well to better understand your mother tongue.

While I know that change is difficult and people tend to find millions of reasons to avoid it (and lets face it - New Zealand is a society where many people don't even speak one language properly) - why not give it at least a try to open our horizons? It is not that hard - according to Dr. Google are roughly 60% of the world population at least bilingual. We could do it as well, can't we?

I simply posed the question 'why do Labour want more Maori speakers?' I'm neither for or against it. It's not for me - but if anyone is interested - go for your life. My personal view is there are far more useful things to learn than languages for most students, although English, being our main language, should be taught. NZers' level of grammar is appalling as you correctly note. In my school days I learnt, and hated French. I found Latin interesting, but given my time over, if I had to choose a language it would be Spanish.

BlackPeter
06-10-2021, 12:59 PM
I simply posed the question 'why do Labour want more Maori speakers?' I'm neither for or against it. It's not for me - but if anyone is interested - go for your life. My personal view is there are far more useful things to learn than languages for most students, although English, being our main language, should be taught. NZers' level of grammar is appalling as you correctly note. In my school days I learnt, and hated French. I found Latin interesting, but given my time over, if I had to choose a language it would be Spanish.

Yes and No. Some comments from me:

First - while it clearly does cost effort and resources to teach and to learn another language, I don't think it reduces the number of other useful things a student can learn.

Example - Switzerland as well as Germany are multilingual societies and children learn in Switzerland at least three languages at school and in Germany as a minimum two (but most students reaching university level learned three as well). Despite this effort in learning languages are both Switzerland as well as Germany quite successful in all things culture as well as in trade and academical. I think this example shows that the second and third language is not learned instead of (what you consider) more useful things, but additionally to them - and it even makes some of these more useful things easier to understand.

The other thing is the cultural aspect. NZ is becoming a more and more divided nation - and things won't get better as long as the once quasi colonial forces just insist that nothing is supposed to change. People don't grow together if one group claims and tries to maintain superiority.

More people in NZ appreciating the language and culture of the people who have been here before the British took over can help in this regard. Wouldn't you consider it as useful if we can grow NZ into one people (vs one group looking down on the other and trying to tell the other side what they are supposed to do) and focus our efforts more on building a common future instead of allowing the past to divide us?

I agree that Spanish might be in the decades to come a useful language (though Chinese probably comes first) ... but as indicated earlier - there is no either / or. If Kiwis really learn to learn other languages but English, then it wouldn't be a problem to add Maori into the mix as well.

ynot
06-10-2021, 02:01 PM
What steps do you suggest govts. could or should have taken?

For a start, how about 30-40 years ago we policed their behaviour that would require them to operate within the boundaries of the law. Standing on drug dealing back then for starters. Not to mention other anti social behaviour.

fungus pudding
06-10-2021, 03:29 PM
For a start, how about 30-40 years ago we policed their behaviour that would require them to operate within the boundaries of the law. Standing on drug dealing back then for starters. Not to mention other anti social behaviour.

Illegal drug dealing has beeen policed as long as I can remember. Illegal anti-social behaviour likewise. Any constructive suggestions?

101nick101
06-10-2021, 04:35 PM
Cindy will pull on the same UN driven levers she always has:
- the 'gender pay gap'
- reduce inequality
- the need for more social housing/welfare

I don't see National beating her out next round. A bit scary talking to my circle, those who voted Labour don't actually care if she's delivering on policies or not they just like her as a person and refer to National and their supporters as boomers.

Panda-NZ-
06-10-2021, 05:00 PM
Cindy will still give them their superannuation at 65 with no income testing. How nice of her to do so.

It's being kind some might say.

dobby41
06-10-2021, 05:08 PM
Cindy will still give them their superannuation at 65 with no income testing. How nice of her to do so.

And so will Judith.
I have no idea where Act stands on this.

ynot
06-10-2021, 06:30 PM
Illegal drug dealing has beeen policed as long as I can remember. Illegal anti-social behaviour likewise. Any constructive suggestions?
How about policing the problems to the point it is effective. obviously if you are policing in the same manner for decades and the problem is only getting worse then you can only conclude your doing something wrong.

fungus pudding
06-10-2021, 06:52 PM
How about policing the problems to the point it is effective. obviously if you are policing in the same manner for decades and the problem is only getting worse then you can only conclude you're doing something wrong.

Right. I never thought of that. So why don't you tell them the right way?

Balance
06-10-2021, 07:08 PM
Right. I never thought of that. So why don't you tell them the right way?

This resident tried and the police & Cindy cannot be bothered :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-clover-park-resident-says-lockdown-breaches-are-out-of-control/PSFGQKFJZNMGV3BFFVGD6HXAAQ/

"This is happening every day. I have seen police officers drive past a park with 20-30 kids playing basketball and they drive on. While my next door neighbour has friends around all the time to party - it's so frustrating."

Police response :

He (Inspector Scott Gemmell from the Counties Manukau Police) said police do their best to respond and proactively educate and enforce the rules, but said there are limits to what officers can respond to.

"We are reliant on our community doing the right thing and following the rules."

ynot
06-10-2021, 07:21 PM
Illegal drug dealing has beeen policed as long as I can remember. Illegal anti-social behaviour likewise. Any constructive suggestions?

You asked for constructive suggestion, I'm giving you one. Improve the policing effectiveness.

fungus pudding
06-10-2021, 07:23 PM
You asked for constructive suggestion, I'm giving you one. Improve the policing effectiveness.

Brilliant! How?

ynot
06-10-2021, 07:35 PM
[QUOTE=fungus pudding;915127]Brilliant! How?[/QUOTE

Harder laws. Harder policing. Obvious.

fungus pudding
06-10-2021, 08:17 PM
[QUOTE=fungus pudding;915127]Brilliant! How?[/QUOTE

Harder laws. Harder policing. Obvious.

That's it! Police state. Lock 'em up - throw away key. Put magistrates on commision. Burn at stake. Crush their cars. No parole. No trial - guilty if peeler says so. Bring back hanging. Sounding good so far. Anything else?

Balance
06-10-2021, 08:31 PM
[QUOTE=ynot;915128]

That's it! Police state. Lock 'em up - throw away key. Put magistrates on commision. Burn at stake. Crush their cars. No parole. No trial - guilty if peeler says so. Bring back hanging. Sounding good so far. Anything else?

Have you ever been to Singapore and learn how they got rid of the gangs over there? And why it is considered one of the safest cities in the world? And why Singaporeans are generally happy with it?

Panda-NZ-
06-10-2021, 08:49 PM
Gun restrictions?

Why would dave seymour want to do away with those. :\

ynot
06-10-2021, 09:41 PM
[QUOTE=ynot;915128]

That's it! Police state. Lock 'em up - throw away key. Put magistrates on commision. Burn at stake. Crush their cars. No parole. No trial - guilty if peeler says so. Bring back hanging. Sounding good so far. Anything else?

I did not say police state. You can't have it both ways. Are you happy with our current level of gang behaviour ?

fungus pudding
06-10-2021, 10:49 PM
[QUOTE=fungus pudding;915139]

Have you ever been to Singapore and learn how they got rid of the gangs over there? And why it is considered one of the safest cities in the world? And why Singaporeans are generally happy with it?

Of course I've been there. It's a godawful. horrible, colourless place and has been voted 'the most emotionless place in the world' however that is measured. Yes, the police have law and order under control, but it's over the top - un-natural. Don't go 1 km over the speed limit, don't drop your bus tricket, don't jaywalk etc - etc. I would rather a bit of riff-raff than that nonsense. I pity them.

fungus pudding
06-10-2021, 10:52 PM
[QUOTE=fungus pudding;915139]

I did not say police state. You can't have it both ways. Are you happy with our current level of gang behaviour ?

No, but it's not that bad. But seriously - what would you do about it?

Balance
06-10-2021, 11:07 PM
[QUOTE=Balance;915141]

Of course I've been there. It's a godawful. horrible, colourless place and has been voted 'the most emotionless place in the world' however that is measured. Yes, the police have law and order under control, but it's over the top - un-natural. Don't go 1 km over the speed limit, don't drop your bus tricket, don't jaywalk etc - etc. I would rather a bit of riff-raff than that nonsense. I pity them.

Must be why so many international businesses, millionaires & billionaires flock to make Singapore their home base?

And they pity you.

iceman
06-10-2021, 11:54 PM
Gun restrictions?

Why would dave seymour want to do away with those. :\

What has the gun buyback achieved ? Zilch

Bjauck
07-10-2021, 07:50 AM
Of course I've been there. It's a godawful. horrible, colourless place and has been voted 'the most emotionless place in the world' however that is measured. Yes, the police have law and order under control, but it's over the top - un-natural. Don't go 1 km over the speed limit, don't drop your bus tricket, don't jaywalk etc - etc. I would rather a bit of riff-raff than that nonsense. I pity them. Criminal & drug activity operated under NZ gangs is more than a bit of “riff-raff”. Maybe perspective depends on where one lives. Auckland is not St Mary Meade.

Some gangs should be on a list of banned organisations as we have for terrorist organisations with their purpose also to commit crime. When it was established that there was continued commission of crime by various members and/or conspiracy, the gang should have been banned from a district. When that occurred in several districts, the gang & its uniform should have been banned nationally.

Obviously the law and policing reform details would be subject to the commission and law reform process.

dobby41
07-10-2021, 08:13 AM
Have you ever been to Singapore and learn how they got rid of the gangs over there? And why it is considered one of the safest cities in the world? And why Singaporeans are generally happy with it?

They got rid of gangs - like they don't have any?
Where do you get this stuff - they have them
SINGAPORE - Gang arrests in Singapore have been on the decline over the last decade but police figures show gangsterism is still a problem.
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/notorious-gang-leaders

fungus pudding
07-10-2021, 08:56 AM
Criminal & drug activity operated under NZ gangs is more than a bit of “riff-raff”. Maybe perspective depends on where one lives. Auckland is not St Mary Meade.

Some gangs should be on a list of banned organisations as we have for terrorist organisations with their purpose also to commit crime. When it was established that there was continued commission of crime by various members and/or conspiracy, the gang should have been banned from a district. When that occurred in several districts, the gang & its uniform should have been banned nationally.

Obviously the law and policing reform details would be subject to the commission and law reform process.

What is the definition of a gang? Which gangs would you ban? How would you enforce that? Which uniforms would you ban? Are there no terrorists in NZ or are they just not in gangs? Let's start by banning murderers; then rapists. Then work through all criminal activities - banning burglary and theft should be next. Should have everything sorted by Christmas.

Bjauck
07-10-2021, 09:06 AM
What is the definition of a gang? Which gangs would you ban? How would you enforce that? Which uniforms would you ban? Are there no terrorists in NZ or are they just not in gangs? Let's start by banning murderers; then rapists. Then work through all criminal activities - banning burglary and theft should be next. Should have everything sorted by Christmas. Are you suggesting that we do not ban terrorists groups as despite the ban there are still terrorists in NZ?

However there needs to be reform to deal with an issue that has been growing and has been fuelled by 501 deportees.

Getty
07-10-2021, 09:47 AM
Are you suggesting that we do not ban terrorists groups as despite the ban there are still terrorists in NZ?

However there needs to be reform to deal with an issue that has been growing and has been fuelled by 501 deportees.

Ah, the poor hard done by 501's.

Who can forget the plaintive bleating from Jacinda and others in 2017, when Aussie put up the hoist to tip the dump rats back where they came from?

The poor split families left behind, etc etc.

Never one word about personal responsibility, and consequences of actions & choices that 501's made.

Here we are 4 years later, realising what these 'poor, under priveleged' people are really like.

See how they 'thank' us?

fungus pudding
07-10-2021, 09:52 AM
Are you suggesting that we do not ban terrorists groups as despite the ban there are still terrorists in NZ?

However there needs to be reform to deal with an issue that has been growing and has been fuelled by 501 deportees.

I am saying it's easy to spout mantras 'lock them up', 'ban gangs' etc - but close to impossible to draft laws. That's why I asked for the definition of a gang. Are boy scouts included? Rotery? Round Table?
As has often been pointed out the NZ Police are a gang. Do you want them banned?

BlackPeter
07-10-2021, 10:10 AM
Of course I've been there. It's a godawful. horrible, colourless place and has been voted 'the most emotionless place in the world' however that is measured. Yes, the police have law and order under control, but it's over the top - un-natural. Don't go 1 km over the speed limit, don't drop your bus tricket, don't jaywalk etc - etc. I would rather a bit of riff-raff than that nonsense. I pity them.

Hmm - been there frequently. I remember amazing food, colourful markets, a quite good orchestra, three major and quite different ethnicities and religions living together in peace, two outstanding universities, a nice and friendly Aikido club and amazing architecture and lots of green stuff including even bush walks and interesting nature reserves.

Quite funny how differently different people can see this amazing city ... are you sure you have been in Singapore?

Bjauck
07-10-2021, 10:16 AM
I am saying it's easy to spout mantras 'lock them up', 'ban gangs' etc - but close to impossible to draft laws. That's why I asked for the definition of a gang. Are boy scouts included? Rotery? Round Table?
As has often been pointed out the NZ Police are a gang. Do you want them banned? Quite a bizarre post. You may have missed the conspiracy and repeat offences part of my original post? Police are subject to a complaints process, a Minister of Police and various reviews and commissions. THere are various ways to oversee and scrutinise them to prevent criminal activity becoming endemic. Obviously every organisation gets the occasional bad egg…it does not mean every organisation has criminality at its core.

Bjauck
07-10-2021, 10:24 AM
Hmm - been there frequently. I remember amazing food, colourful markets, a quite good orchestra, three major and quite different ethnicities and religions living together in peace, two outstanding universities, a nice and friendly Aikido club and amazing architecture and lots of green stuff including even bush walks and interesting nature reserves.

Quite funny how differently different people can see this amazing city ... are you sure you have been in Singapore? A beautiful well planned and vibrant city, with beautiful parks and reserves in my experience.

westerly
07-10-2021, 12:02 PM
Hmm - been there frequently. I remember amazing food, colourful markets, a quite good orchestra, three major and quite different ethnicities and religions living together in peace, two outstanding universities, a nice and friendly Aikido club and amazing architecture and lots of green stuff including even bush walks and interesting nature reserves.

Quite funny how differently different people can see this amazing city ... are you sure you have been in Singapore?

Sounds like a great place to work? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-singapore-migrants-idUSKBN23G1PG

westerly

fungus pudding
07-10-2021, 12:03 PM
A beautiful well planned and vibrant city, with beautiful parks and reserves in my experience.

Sterile, colourless and boring in my experience, the least interesting part of Asia. Then of course some people go to Australia and find Canberra attractive. But if you really like Singapore, pop over to Salt Lake City. It would blow your mind, it's so horrible. And while I've never been to Brasillia I'm told it's even worse - internationally recognised as the worst of all the planned cities. You'd probably love it!

Panda-NZ-
07-10-2021, 12:24 PM
Vancouver looks great.

If I had the misfortune of being born in America I'd probably live in washington state just to be able to easily able to pop over there.

BlackPeter
07-10-2021, 12:34 PM
Sounds like a great place to work? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-singapore-migrants-idUSKBN23G1PG

westerly

Well, lets face it - lots of saddening stories from migrants with valid NZ visas which our loving and kind government decided to hang out to dry ... and to destroy their families and livelihoods. Mothers separated from their children, families not allowed back to their home, partners with both valid visas separated, and people with valid work to residence visas getting a kick in the butt from our government. I guess they deserve not better, why would anybody trust and rely on these liars?

The Labour government turned NZ into a xenophobe and racist place many migrants will never ever consider again as a future home - and our unkind anti immigration minister made sure that many migrants with absolutely crucial skills had to leave New Zealand during the last 18 months. The idiot even got rid of GP's, vets and nurses - just to demonstrate his ignorance and laziness. Just too difficult to move his butt in order to do something for his people and for the people whom we used to promise (well, printed on the visa) that NZ being a good choice, I suppose?

Oops - you were talking about New Zealand and our inept government, were you?

Referring to Singapore ... well, one of our boys lives and works there. He has a great and well paid job at the university and actually had to travel several times last year overseas (between Singapore and Taiwan). While travelling there is admittedly at the moment more difficult than it used to be before Covid (Singapore used to be one of the easiest countries for travellers ... I remember leaving the airport typically 30 to 45 minutes after touchdown - and I don't have a Singaporean passport) - he always managed to get in a reasonable time frame out and into the country ... a breeze compared to our absolutely disastrous MIQ experience in NZ. In Singapore it is quarantine at home, and hey - the number of their Covid deaths is quite similar to NZ :):

You really should not point fingers to others when you are supporting one of the least effective and most xenophobe governments we ever had in New Zealand. Qualified people are not really trying anymore to move into NZ. I guess why would anybody with skills in demand try to get into a country which makes it so difficult to get in and which is so happy and careless to break on a whim the commitments it used to make towards migrants?

It might take decades for New Zealand's reputation to recover after the irresponsible Labour government destroyed it.

Balance
07-10-2021, 01:18 PM
You really should not point fingers to others when you are supporting one of the least effective and most xenophobe governments we ever had in New Zealand. Qualified people are not really trying anymore to move into NZ. I guess why would anybody with skills in demand try to get into a country which makes it so difficult to get in and which is so happy and careless to break on a whim the commitments it used to make towards migrants?

It might take decades for New Zealand's reputation to recover after the irresponsible Labour government destroyed it.

Meanwhile, Australia has opened up its doors to not just Kiwis (first preference) but to other nationalities as well in the essential services.

So sobering to observe in the last couple of years, 6 doctors (of whom 4 are specialists) I know have migrated to Australia - a blood specialist, a plastic surgeon, an anesthetist, a radiologist & his GP wife and a cardiologist. All educated and trained in NZ (save the GP).

Balance
07-10-2021, 02:46 PM
Sterile, colourless and boring in my experience, the least interesting part of Asia. Then of course some people go to Australia and find Canberra attractive. But if you really like Singapore, pop over to Salt Lake City. It would blow your mind, it's so horrible. And while I've never been to Brasillia I'm told it's even worse - internationally recognised as the worst of all the planned cities. You'd probably love it!

You sound exactly like one of my ex-colleagues when we used to go to Singapore for our regional conferences. Boring as hell etc etc to her especially compared to the conferences in Bangkok and Hong Kong.

So one weekend, I asked one of the Singaporean attendees to take us all out of the city centre and out to the 'suburbs' where Singaporeans actually live and socialize. She was absolutely blown away by the various places we visited, especially the ethnic places - the variety, the colors and the friendliness of the people (almost all speak English), the food, the shopping, the clubs where we hung out until the wee hours - and the complete feeling of safety at all times. There is nothing quite like being in a club being served great food, great drinks, mingling with the locals and listening (& dancing) to a Filipino band playing. She has never ever described Singapore as boring since then.

If you want boring, try Auckland city from a tourist perspective!

Bjauck
07-10-2021, 03:13 PM
Meanwhile, Australia has opened up its doors to not just Kiwis (first preference) but to other nationalities as well in the essential services.

So sobering to observe in the last couple of years, 6 doctors (of whom 4 are specialists) I know have migrated to Australia - a blood specialist, a plastic surgeon, an anesthetist, a radiologist & his GP wife and a cardiologist. All educated and trained in NZ (save the GP).

NZers are the first preference? Is that because with special category Kiwis they can tax them and then deny to them the full range of government services - hoping that if their luck runs out, they will have to return across the Tasman to access help from the NZ Government?

Bjauck
07-10-2021, 03:15 PM
You sound exactly like one of my ex-colleagues when we used to go to Singapore for our regional conferences. Boring as hell etc etc to her especially compared to the conferences in Bangkok and Hong Kong.

So one weekend, I asked one of the Singaporean attendees to take us all out of the city centre and out to the 'suburbs' where Singaporeans actually live and socialize. She was absolutely blown away by the various places we visited, especially the ethnic places - the variety, the colors and the friendliness of the people (almost all speak English), the food, the shopping, the clubs where we hung out until the wee hours - and the complete feeling of safety at all times. There is nothing quite like being in a club being served great food, great drinks, mingling with the locals and listening (& dancing) to a Filipino band playing. She has never ever described Singapore as boring since then.

If you want boring, try Auckland city from a tourist perspective!

Are the “ethnic” places in Singapore, the areas where ex-pat British and Australians live?

Balance
07-10-2021, 03:24 PM
NZers are the first preference? Is that because with special category Kiwis they can tax them and then deny to them the full range of government services - hoping that if their luck runs out, they will have to return across the Tasman to access help from the NZ Government?

Could well be except that the Aussies do dangle some extremely attractive inducements to entice NZers they want to cross over.

The doctors I mentioned got all their relocation expenses and all other expenses (rent, insurance, transport and a monthly food allowance) paid for the first year (including for 4 weeks’ holidays), double their NZ pay for half the working hours and assistance with getting dual citizenship after 5 years in Australia.

Let’s be blunt - our hospital system will collapse but for the migrant doctors & nurses from other countries.

Balance
07-10-2021, 03:31 PM
Are the “ethnic” places in Singapore, the areas where ex-pat British and Australians live?

Haha - know where you are coming from but no, they are the Little India, Malay villages, Chinatown and local housing centres. The clubs are mostly in the city or close to city centres.

Panda-NZ-
07-10-2021, 04:57 PM
So sobering to observe in the last couple of years, 6 doctors (of whom 4 are specialists) I know have migrated to Australia - a blood specialist, a plastic surgeon, an anesthetist, a radiologist & his GP wife and a cardiologist. All educated and trained in NZ (save the GP).

If the highest population growth in the world does not satisfy, what would you prefer.

NZers should have something of a protective system in place.

Panda-NZ-
07-10-2021, 05:27 PM
The mood of the boardroom under any administration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-3e0EkvIEM

The NZH should run a broader range of stories for the perpective of home buyers rather than investors.

Even the WP owned by bezos has stories about the pandora papers involving many NZ trusts.

BlackPeter
07-10-2021, 05:35 PM
Are the “ethnic” places in Singapore, the areas where ex-pat British and Australians live?

Well, the ethnic places I have visited in Singapore are places where Indian people, Malayan people and Chinese people live ... and they all brought the best of their culture with them.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060908192556/http://www.visitsingapore.com/publish/stbportal/en/home/getting_around/tours_in_singapore/walking_tours/little_india.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatown,_Singapore


Have to admit however that I got in Singapore as well the best Bavarian pork roast (at the Brotzeit) I ever had .. which means something given that I grew up in Bavaria :):

https://www.chope.co/singapore-restaurants/pages/brotzeitlocations

Quite funny - despite haven been often to Singapore I can't really remember lots of British Expats (well, you see some in the Museum they built to remember the British surrender against the Japanese :p) (the former Ford factory: https://www.visitsingapore.com/en_au/see-do-singapore/history/history-museums/former-ford-factory/) - maybe the Expats only live in some really boring parts of Singapore which I haven't yet seen and they avoid the interesting parts? Typical Brits ...

Bjauck
07-10-2021, 06:15 PM
Well, the ethnic places I have visited in Singapore are places where Indian people, Malayan people and Chinese people live ... and they all brought the best of their culture with them.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060908192556/http://www.visitsingapore.com/publish/stbportal/en/home/getting_around/tours_in_singapore/walking_tours/little_india.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatown,_Singapore


Have to admit however that I got in Singapore as well the best Bavarian pork roast (at the Brotzeit) I ever had .. which means something given that I grew up in Bavaria :):

https://www.chope.co/singapore-restaurants/pages/brotzeitlocations

Quite funny - despite haven been often to Singapore I can't really remember lots of British Expats (well, you see some in the Museum they built to remember the British surrender against the Japanese :p) (the former Ford factory: https://www.visitsingapore.com/en_au/see-do-singapore/history/history-museums/former-ford-factory/) - maybe the Expats only live in some really boring parts of Singapore which I haven't yet seen and they avoid the interesting parts? Typical Brits ...
I shouldn’t read your post at dinner time…as I wait for the vege pasta meal too…

I remember as a child watching Tenko on TV. The last series was set in Raffles Hotel, so I had to have afternoon tea there when I got to visit. Back to the horrors facing the Labour Govt, I suppose…

Schuhplattler :t_up: followed by this...:drool:
yum yum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZoxizWozCg

Balance
08-10-2021, 09:39 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/auckland-district-law-society-challenges-justice-minister-to-withdraw-statement-on-lease-changes/QDAHFYIHLZ5BGGR5G2QR2DHK7Q/

Kris Faafoi caught lying by the Law Society.

Unable to spin effectively anymore, Cindy’s team of incompetents try lies instead.

BlackPeter
08-10-2021, 12:37 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/auckland-district-law-society-challenges-justice-minister-to-withdraw-statement-on-lease-changes/QDAHFYIHLZ5BGGR5G2QR2DHK7Q/

Kris Faafoi caught lying by the Law Society.

Unable to spin effectively anymore, Cindy’s team of incompetents try lies instead.

Chris Faafoi is a sick joke ... he represents basically everything which is wrong with this government.

He is not just heartless, uncaring and unkind towards people the government made previous commitments to (remember the visa holders he hung out to dry), so it is no surprise he doesn't give a sh*t about contracts and legal documents agreed by others, he clearly thinks he can change anything even retrospectively on a whim - no need to even follow the legal process.

Chris Faafoi demonstrated his incompetence in any of the many portfolios he is supposed to run and he is not even able to answer easy questions - I suppose he will this time as well ducking away from giving interviews.

A disgrace for our country and for this government. Not before time for him to go?

Roll on 2023 ...

Panda-NZ-
08-10-2021, 02:14 PM
Doctors and nurses fine...

Though we need to get our productivity up, which involves making employers consider new things rather than "more bodies".

westerly
08-10-2021, 04:17 PM
Well, lets face it - lots of saddening stories from migrants with valid NZ visas which our loving and kind government decided to hang out to dry ... and to destroy their families and livelihoods. Mothers separated from their children, families not allowed back to their home, partners with both valid visas separated, and people with valid work to residence visas getting a kick in the butt from our government. I guess they deserve not better, why would anybody trust and rely on these liars?

The Labour government turned NZ into a xenophobe and racist place many migrants will never ever consider again as a future home - and our unkind anti immigration minister made sure that many migrants with absolutely crucial skills had to leave New Zealand during the last 18 months. The idiot even got rid of GP's, vets and nurses - just to demonstrate his ignorance and laziness. Just too difficult to move his butt in order to do something for his people and for the people whom we used to promise (well, printed on the visa) that NZ being a good choice, I suppose?

You really should not point fingers to others when you are supporting one of the least effective and most xenophobe governments we ever had in New Zealand. Qualified people are not really trying anymore to move into NZ. I guess why would anybody with skills in demand try to get into a country which makes it so difficult to get in and which is so happy and careless to break on a whim the commitments it used to make towards migrants?

It might take decades for New Zealand's reputation to recover after the irresponsible Labour government destroyed it.

Quite a rant turning a link to an article on the treatment of migrant workers in Singapore into a diatribe on NZ residency applicants and their problems. There may well be reasons for the difficulties some have.
You do not give residency just because someone wants to live here.

westerly

Getty
08-10-2021, 05:29 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/auckland-district-law-society-challenges-justice-minister-to-withdraw-statement-on-lease-changes/QDAHFYIHLZ5BGGR5G2QR2DHK7Q/

Kris Faafoi caught lying by the Law Society.

Unable to spin effectively anymore, Cindy’s team of incompetents try lies instead.

JBmurc has a quotation at the base of his posts, which seems apt here on this thread.

"The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it"
George Orwell.

Balance
08-10-2021, 05:46 PM
JBmurc has a quotation at the base of his posts, which seems apt here on this thread.

"The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it"
George Orwell.

Well posted, Getty.

Kris Faafoi has been learning from the mistress of spin but he does not know how to think on his feet (of clay) so he has moved to the next phase of the Cindy government's spin machine - tell lies.

A minister of Justice who refuses to be interviewed live - how did NZ allowed this to happen?

Panda-NZ-
08-10-2021, 06:05 PM
Could Judith collins even be contacted by anyone when last in the role?

Balance
08-10-2021, 07:55 PM
Clueless Cindy taking NZers on the road to nowhere.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/453182/the-week-in-politics-transition-confusion-and-auckland-s-road-to-nowhere

Her one size fits all & cute ‘short & sharp’ lockdown solution has not worked with delta and she has zero idea what to do next.

Been sitting on her bum smugly thinking she had the perfect one cure solution to all things COVID - lockdown.

https://youtu.be/LQiOA7euaYA

Panda-NZ-
09-10-2021, 12:30 AM
The cure is vaccination, and success is inevitable.

BDL
09-10-2021, 08:33 AM
The current Labour/Jacinda government values - Maori gangs, drugs, guns, spreading Covid far and wide, (the rest of the country locked up like North Korea), but be kind, all learn te reo, respect violent Maori culture, ignore science, ignore climate change, ignore environment, encourage separatism and racism. Take peoples assets and give to Maori (14% of population) Don't call out human rights (China) but be kind, always.....
What the hell is this government up to?

Bjauck
09-10-2021, 08:39 AM
Doctors and nurses fine...

Though we need to get our productivity up, which involves making employers consider new things rather than "more bodies". Good luck with that....NZ is weaned to investment in land, not to investment to help labour productivity.

Balance
09-10-2021, 08:43 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/126610928/a-perilous-week-for-the-government-as-the-real-war-begins

Cindy revealing her real self now that she has lost the war against COVID & it’s spreading - Clueless & increasingly even more deceptive with her spinning.

Economy is surviving on her borrowing $1 billion a week while she has no idea what next to do except to urge the remaining 20% of NZers to vaccinate.

No idea how to get to 90% and silly woman still thinks that NZers are going to stand for more lockdowns if NZ does not get to 90%.

Well, one just have to go out last week to know that Aucklanders are collectively giving Cindy their middle finger - the rush hour traffic is back and there’s people mingling & showing zero heed of the cops walking or driving by. If it’s ok for the gangs to give her their middle finger, the average Aucklander is now doing the same.

My farmer friend in Hamilton tells me the cops will have to lock up half the population there if the cops attempt to enforce the lockdown rules.

The beginning of the end for Clueless Cindy reign as the COVID Cindy.

BDL
09-10-2021, 08:43 AM
Maori putting in another illegal road block in Northland - might catch some more Maori gangsters.
What ever happened to the law. If you are Maori, you seem to be able to do what you like.

Bjauck
09-10-2021, 08:49 AM
Quite a rant turning a link to an article on the treatment of migrant workers in Singapore into a diatribe on NZ residency applicants and their problems. There may well be reasons for the difficulties some have.
You do not give residency just because someone wants to live here.

westerly Faa'foi's second term has been dogged by failures. For example, Hate Speech and Conversion therapies along with migrant workers are complex issues and he failed to clarify or explain them adequately. Admittedly he did not get much constructive help from colleagues. He needs to clarify his claim with respect to the Law Society. He has lost their trust?

Bjauck
09-10-2021, 09:03 AM
Maori putting in another illegal road block in Northland - might catch some more Maori gangsters.
What ever happened to the law. If you are Maori, you seem to be able to do what you like. Auckland came out of level 4 too soon. How effective is policing of borders? I can understand their wishing to protect their vulnerable communities.

Balance
09-10-2021, 09:06 AM
Faa'foi's second term has been dogged by failures. For example, Hate Speech and Conversion therapies along with migrant workers are complex issues and he failed to clarify or explain them adequately. Admittedly he did not get much constructive help from colleagues. He needs to clarify his claim with respect to the Law Society. He has lost their trust?

Coward Kris does not even dare to front up anymore for media interviews.

Used to be a broadcaster - only good for relying what gets said, hopeless at relying what needs to be explained. Yet another token brown MP who should have been stood down.

BlackPeter
09-10-2021, 09:53 AM
Quite a rant turning a link to an article on the treatment of migrant workers in Singapore into a diatribe on NZ residency applicants and their problems. There may well be reasons for the difficulties some have.
You do not give residency just because someone wants to live here.

westerly

What a disgusting post and response.

I am talking about people who had already a valid visa for NZ and who relied on a NZ visa having more worth than the plastic they glued into your passport.

You clearly have neither empathy for the people this government shafted nor any clue how it feels to be a migrant who gave up his work at home and sold his house in a different country after receiving a NZ Visa ... and than be told, well, now there happens to be this virus, get lost, we don't keep the word we gave you.

I can see why you love this bunch of liars running the country ... just stick in your echo chamber.

Balance
09-10-2021, 10:43 AM
Maori putting in another illegal road block in Northland - might catch some more Maori gangsters.
What ever happened to the law. If you are Maori, you seem to be able to do what you like.

So the women who ventured into Northland reportedly to peddle their services (drugs & sex?) are connected with the Mongrel Mob, according to sources.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-northland-into-level-3-warning-cases-could-spiral-out-of-control-if-auckland-restrictions-ease/WYN42Y2ZHS6H5HOT26JIUILYHU/

Or if you are a gang member, you can do as you like, thanks to Cindy.

So the law of NZ does not apply to the Mongrel Mob or Black Power as they are predominantly Maori - according to Cindy.

As useless a government a country can get with Cindy, the most racist PM of NZ.

Getty
09-10-2021, 11:03 AM
COLONIALISM.

Those with their divisive agendas, cast Colonialism in a negative way, to brainwash the vulnerable, and put guilt on the colonials.

In their sanitised version of history, they want you to believe pre European NZ was a south seas paradise of aroha and waiata, and the arrival of the Europeans destroyed it.

Nothing could be further from the TRUTH.

It was an ugly cesspit of:

*Warfare.
*Violence.
*Cannibalism.
*Slavery.
*Bullying.
*Sexual mutilation.
*Tribalism.
*Nepotism.
*Elitism.
*Misogyny.
*Superstition.
*Low life expectancy.

Run by despot Rangitira's, all based around a stone age level of subsistence.

A life of oppression, suppression and depression.

All of the above led to the original settlers, the Moriori, being chased out and vanquished to the Chatham Islands.

Who could advocate for such a society?
Pause for a moment and contemplate what such a life would be like?

Colonialism is the best thing that ever happened to most Maori, while some elite lament their loss of power, entitlement and privelege.
Hence these elite lobbying Labour for a return to their status.
Do they believe in trickle down?
No way!
They take the cake, and leave the crumbs.

If Te Reo was such a toanga as you are told, why did so many Maori abandon it?

Meanwhile, pre 1840 Waitangi Treaty, Europe was awash with Science, Technology, Engineering, Agriculture, Fine Arts, Literature, Architecture, Medical advances, Zoology, Gardens, Philosophy and Education.

All imported to NZ by the Euro settlers.

Which culture would you choose?, and celebrate?
Colonialism rescued many folk and their descendants from a very miserable existence.

Next time you see or hear colonialism being cast negatively, slap the above in their face!

BDL
09-10-2021, 11:54 AM
The current Labour/Jacinda government values - Maori gangs, drugs, guns, spreading Covid far and wide, (the rest of the country locked up like North Korea), but be kind, all learn te reo, respect violent Maori culture, ignore science, ignore climate change, ignore environment, encourage separatism and racism. Take peoples assets and give to Maori (14% of population) Don't call out human rights (China) but be kind, always.....
What the hell is this government up to?

I guess I should add sex workers to the list now.

dobby41
09-10-2021, 12:09 PM
So the women who ventured into Northland reportedly to peddle their services (drugs & sex?) are connected with the Mongrel Mob, according to sources.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-northland-into-level-3-warning-cases-could-spiral-out-of-control-if-auckland-restrictions-ease/WYN42Y2ZHS6H5HOT26JIUILYHU/

Or if you are a gang member, you can do as you like, thanks to Cindy.

So the law of NZ does not apply to the Mongrel Mob or Black Power as they are predominantly Maori - according to Cindy.

As useless a government a country can get with Cindy, the most racist PM of NZ.

Someone lies to get across the border.
They may or may not belong to a gang (Winston says so must be right?).
And that means the Govt condones gangs and they don't have to obey the laws?
You really do say some stupid things and draw a stange logic.

Balance
09-10-2021, 12:21 PM
Someone lies to get across the border.
They may or may not belong to a gang (Winston says so must be right?).
And that means the Govt condones gangs and they don't have to obey the laws?
You really do say some stupid things and draw a stange logic.

Look back at the interaction of Cindy’s government (especially her Maori ministers & MPs) with Maori gangs and it has been all about legitimising, emboldening & empowering them.

That’s a fact.

Think she will give the sex workers $2.7m to be taught about safe sex? Cindy was happy to do that to teach the gangs how to peddle drugs ‘safely’. At least some koha maybe so they will co-operate with the contact tracers?

dobby41
09-10-2021, 12:33 PM
Look back at the interaction of Cindy’s government (especially her Maori ministers & MPs) with Maori gangs and it has been all about legitimising, emboldening & empowering them.

That’s a fact.

Think she will give the sex workers $2.7m to be taught about safe sex? Cindy was happy to do that to teach the gangs how to peddle drugs ‘safely’. At least some koha maybe so they will co-operate with the contact tracers?

As per usual you conflate things and what say are facts are not - they are just opinions.
We know where you stand on the Labour Govt and you will never see anything positive or even neutral. You seek out anything that you can spin with your own hate.

Balance
09-10-2021, 12:47 PM
As per usual you conflate things and what say are facts are not - they are just opinions.
We know where you stand on the Labour Govt and you will never see anything positive or even neutral. You seek out anything that you can spin with your own hate.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300426709/covid19-search-for-contact-of-northland-case-continues-over-fears-she-too-has-virus

The information was already out there yesterday that the women in question are sex workers - and when you have the government ducking and diving instead of being truthful, you know the information is correct.

Hard for Cindy to spin out of this one.

She will still try though, being the spin mistress and purveyor of deviousness that she is.

dobby41
09-10-2021, 01:08 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300426709/covid19-search-for-contact-of-northland-case-continues-over-fears-she-too-has-virus

The information was already out there yesterday that the women in question are sex workers - and when you have the government ducking and diving instead of being truthful, you know the information is correct.

Hard for Cindy to spin out of this one.

She will still try though, being the spin mistress and purveyor of deviousness that she is.

Why would she need to spin it?

So how does that then conflate to the Govt 'letting' gangs do what they want?
They haven't been charged yet (but will be) - people like to get the pitchfork gang together at a drop of a hat.
Last it was against Tamaki, before that it was the couple who went to Wanaka. Charged!

Balance
09-10-2021, 02:05 PM
Why would she need to spin it?

So how does that then conflate to the Govt 'letting' gangs do what they want?
They haven't been charged yet (but will be) - people like to get the pitchfork gang together at a drop of a hat.
Last it was against Tamaki, before that it was the couple who went to Wanaka. Charged!

She is already spinning it via Hipkins pretending he did not know who the women are.

Clueless Cindy is the one emboldening & empowering the Maori gangs through her interaction with them & her race based policies. That’s why they have been rubbing NZers’ noses with their virus spreading antics.

Balance
09-10-2021, 02:15 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/126618134/covid-for-christmas-the-jibe-that-could-come-back-to-haunt-labour

COVID for Christmas - gift from Cindy & her team of incompetents!

fungus pudding
09-10-2021, 03:37 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300426709/covid19-search-for-contact-of-northland-case-continues-over-fears-she-too-has-virus

The information was already out there yesterday that the women in question are sex workers -

Times must be tough in that field of work - having to observe social distancing rules. There might be some tips in the Kama Sutra maybe.

BDL
09-10-2021, 04:31 PM
What a pathetic government.
We now have iwi taking over the policing of the roads illegally, while their Maori gangs spread the virus.
And government just sits, watches and denies the truth.
Never voting Greens again and never would vote racist Maori party.


Like I said above :
The current Labour/Jacinda government values - Maori gangs, drugs, guns, spreading Covid far and wide, (the rest of the country locked up like North Korea), but be kind, all learn te reo, respect violent Maori culture, ignore science, ignore climate change, ignore environment, encourage separatism and racism. Take peoples assets and give to Maori (14% of population) Don't call out human rights (China) but be kind, always.....
What the hell is this government up to?

BlackPeter
09-10-2021, 04:47 PM
COLONIALISM.

Those with their divisive agendas, cast Colonialism in a negative way, to brainwash the vulnerable, and put guilt on the colonials.

In their sanitised version of history, they want you to believe pre European NZ was a south seas paradise of aroha and waiata, and the arrival of the Europeans destroyed it.

Nothing could be further from the TRUTH.

It was an ugly cesspit of:

*Warfare.
*Violence.
*Cannibalism.
*Slavery.
*Bullying.
*Sexual mutilation.
*Tribalism.
*Nepotism.
*Elitism.
*Misogyny.
*Superstition.
*Low life expectancy.

Run by despot Rangitira's, all based around a stone age level of subsistence.

A life of oppression, suppression and depression.

All of the above led to the original settlers, the Moriori, being chased out and vanquished to the Chatham Islands.

Who could advocate for such a society?
Pause for a moment and contemplate what such a life would be like?

Colonialism is the best thing that ever happened to most Maori, while some elite lament their loss of power, entitlement and privelege.
Hence these elite lobbying Labour for a return to their status.
Do they believe in trickle down?
No way!
They take the cake, and leave the crumbs.

If Te Reo was such a toanga as you are told, why did so many Maori abandon it?

Meanwhile, pre 1840 Waitangi Treaty, Europe was awash with Science, Technology, Engineering, Agriculture, Fine Arts, Literature, Architecture, Medical advances, Zoology, Gardens, Philosophy and Education.

All imported to NZ by the Euro settlers.

Which culture would you choose?, and celebrate?
Colonialism rescued many folk and their descendants from a very miserable existence.

Next time you see or hear colonialism being cast negatively, slap the above in their face!

LOL - so you mean the Maoris behaved exactly the same way as the Europeans did? Most of the tick boxes you gave describe exactly the European behaviour in the past 2000 years (and probably before, just less well documented) - and certainly prior to the middle of the 19th century.

Waging wars? YES - several big ones per century!
Holding slaves - YES! the British, The Spanish, The Portuguese, The Belgians and probably some other European Nations made lots of money with turning free people into slaves and selling them or forcing them to work for them.
Suppressing women - YES ... Europeans loved to do that. Some might say, some still do!
Bullying - YES - quite generic human trait!
Low Life Expectancy (prior to and around 1840) - YES - just look at child mortality in Europe prior to the introduction of vaccinations!

Obviously - Europeans had the bigger numbers, the more effective weapons and as well enough resistance to a lot of dangerous illnesses which they liberally spread under the Maoris in order to weaken and eradicate them - as they did previously with the red Indians in the Americas and other indigenous people.

You might well be right ... Europeans not a bit better than the Maoris - just more vicious :p;

fungus pudding
09-10-2021, 05:04 PM
LOL - so you mean the Maoris behaved exactly the same way as the Europeans did?


I don't think the Europeans were in the habit of chucking their captives into the cooking pot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lltk5zUgXZY&list=RDLltk5zUgXZY&start_radio=1&rv=Lltk5zUgXZY&t=6

BDL
09-10-2021, 05:08 PM
Maori would still be doing these things if it wasn't for Colonialism, some still are..... Maori spreading the virus around the country deliberately, great culture!

dobby41
09-10-2021, 05:12 PM
Maori spreading the virus around the country deliberately, great culture!

There seems to be a few Pakeha spreading it around too - great culture!

BlackPeter
09-10-2021, 05:14 PM
I don't think the Europeans were in the habit of chucking their captives into the cooking pot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lltk5zUgXZY&list=RDLltk5zUgXZY&start_radio=1&rv=Lltk5zUgXZY&t=6

True - cannibalism in Europe ended much earlier (but they had that as well during the stone age ...)

However - if this is the only difference, than I don't see the big gain from colonialism getty claims.

Lets face it - Europeans just loved to kill each other (and they still do). And hey - after your enemy killed you than I suppose it does not really matter, whether they let you rot in the field (as the Europeans prefer) or whether they find a better way to use your protein.

Panda-NZ-
09-10-2021, 05:20 PM
Lets face it - Europeans just loved to kill each other (and they still do). And hey - after your enemy killed you than I suppose it does not really matter, whether they let you rot in the field (as the Europeans prefer) or whether they find a better way to use your protein.

NZ has plenty of natural resources, and highly fertile land which allows for the building of more advanced societies.
Sadly this didn't seem to happen when maori were here.

BDL
09-10-2021, 05:22 PM
There seems to be a few Pakeha spreading it around too - great culture!

Maori gangs are doing a good job of it, along with the drugs and sex workers..... Governments OK about it though.....

dobby41
09-10-2021, 05:39 PM
Maori gangs are doing a good job of it, along with the drugs and sex workers..... Governments OK about it though.....

Show me the evidence that they are OK with it - not what they have said at all that I have seen.
Keep throwing that mud.

Winny has said that Tam was the 2nd person - Tam has said he wasn't, media report that the police are looking for the second woman.
Tam isn't a woman - someone has it wrong.
If the Govt were OK with it would the police be looking?

BDL
09-10-2021, 06:09 PM
Gang members helping give out vaccines on TV1 tonight.
Trouble is their day job is killing people with their drug pushing and violence. Not to mention spreading the virus around NZ!
Great role models, but Jacinda keeps defending them.
Racist, stupid government, being used by a bunch of criminals.

Balance
09-10-2021, 06:14 PM
Gang members helping give out vaccines on TV1 tonight.
Trouble is their day job is killing people with their drug pushing and violence. Not to mention spreading the virus around NZ!
Great role models, but Jacinda keeps defending them.
Racist, stupid government, being used by a bunch of criminals.

No doubt expecting Clueless Cindy to hand over a few more $2.7m to help them peddle other criminal products & services.

BDL
09-10-2021, 07:01 PM
www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/453228/person-seriously-injured-in-firearms-incident-in-mt-roskill

NZ gangs. Got to have a shooting at least every day now. NZ giving Mexico a good run for it's money.
An economy built on gangs, guns and drugs.(and a bit of sex work on the side)
Government must be blind not to be noticing this. oh, that's right, this is their voting base....
But they are good boys really, handing out food in schools and vaccines, great role models really.
And they wear their patches so the kids know who the good guys are.

Balance
09-10-2021, 07:14 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-positive-case-in-bay-of-plenty/MPTPHVFUAQLKMZ3D3OHCFMIPLQ/

Delta now in Bay of Plenty. At this rate, it will be in Wellington soon.

COVID by Christmas for South Island as stated by Clueless Cindy & her team of incompetents?

iceman
09-10-2021, 10:30 PM
Gang members helping give out vaccines on TV1 tonight.
Trouble is their day job is killing people with their drug pushing and violence. Not to mention spreading the virus around NZ!
Great role models, but Jacinda keeps defending them.
Racist, stupid government, being used by a bunch of criminals.

Yes that made me sick. Seeing the biggest criminal in NZ, the idiot in charge of Black Power, being rolled out as a "role model" on TV1 tonight. Utterly pathetic.

Blue Skies
09-10-2021, 10:54 PM
Yes that made me sick. Seeing the biggest criminal in NZ, the idiot in charge of Black Power, being rolled out as a "role model" on TV1 tonight. Utterly pathetic.



If you project forward, imagine the alternative.
Think all of us would prefer not to see too many sick unvaccinated gang members filling the hospital wards & quarantine hotels, in case we end up there ourselves.

One hurdle at a time.

iceman
09-10-2021, 11:09 PM
If you project forward, imagine the alternative.
Think all of us would prefer not to see too many sick unvaccinated gang members filling the hospital wards & quarantine hotels, in case we end up there ourselves.

One hurdle at a time.

Yes lets justify this incredible situation we are finding ourselves in when Government and media is glorifying gang leaders and putting them up on a pedestal, while at the same time a large number of the COVID transmissions across the so called internal borders are doing so through gang related illegal activity. Project forward all you like but take into your projections what happens when gangs and criminals get preferential treatment and are not punished for their law breaking. What sort of society are we going to end up with ?

artemis
10-10-2021, 07:40 AM
Doctors and nurses fine...

Though we need to get our productivity up, which involves making employers consider new things rather than "more bodies".

Suggest that councils (funded by ratepayers and not in any danger of going bankrupt) need to have more than a glance at their productivity. Because "Hundreds of builders are calling on the construction minister to reduce long delays for building consents, saying the bottleneck hurts productivity and threatens to destabilise companies".

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/453221/building-consent-bottleneck-slows-residential-construction

fungus pudding
10-10-2021, 08:35 AM
I don't think the Europeans were in the habit of chucking their captives into the cooking pot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lltk5zUgXZY&list=RDLltk5zUgXZY&start_radio=1&rv=Lltk5zUgXZY&t=6

Just reflecting on that song and the changing times. It was released in the mid 60s and acheived moderate success, when Rod Derrett was riding high with several spoof/comic type songs.
Generally it was accepted until almost 40 years later, 2004, someone decided to be offended and complained to the broadcasting authority.
The authority reviewed it and deemed it a novelty song, acceptable for radio play.
Would they make the same decision now - 17 years on?? There's something to ponder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lltk5zUgXZY&list=RDLltk5zUgXZY&start_radio=1&rv=Lltk5zUgXZY&t=6

Another song, initially a hit was Howard Morrison's take on Ahab the Arab. Morrison came up with Mori - the Hori.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO3lcUK029s

Several years later it was re-recorded as 'Howie - the Mowie'.

Feel free to be offended.

Bjauck
10-10-2021, 08:37 AM
Yes that made me sick. Seeing the biggest criminal in NZ, the idiot in charge of Black Power, being rolled out as a "role model" on TV1 tonight. Utterly pathetic.It is very sad to see gang presence sanctioned in such a way. It accepts their growing influence, supplanting traditional legitimate iwi? Is NZ becoming riddled with gangs as certain parts of the USA were by the Mafia in the 1930's. Accepting these Godfathers is terrible.

A Mongrel Mob boss was given an exemption to cross the Auckland border for “no other reason” than to push his people to get tested and vaccinated, a gang spokesperson says

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300423830/covid19-mob-boss-exemption-to-manage-zero-trust-in-health-officials

Bjauck
10-10-2021, 08:49 AM
I don't think the Europeans were in the habit of chucking their captives into the cooking pot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lltk5zUgXZY&list=RDLltk5zUgXZY&start_radio=1&rv=Lltk5zUgXZY&t=6 That would have been too mild? Europeans used burning slowly at the stake, the rack, the Iron Maiden (not the musicians!) and let's not forget the depraved hanging, drawing and quartering amongst other disgusting treatments of their prisoners. Now let us discuss who was civilised?

BlackPeter
10-10-2021, 10:18 AM
NZ has plenty of natural resources, and highly fertile land which allows for the building of more advanced societies.
Sadly this didn't seem to happen when maori were here.

If you want to have an intelligent discussion about human development and why the Eurasian cultures prevailed I recommend to read Jared Diamond's "Guns, germs and steel". A great book written by a history expert ... and it puts any racial theories where they belong.

https://www.litcharts.com/lit/guns-germs-and-steel/summary

Getty
10-10-2021, 12:10 PM
LOL - so you mean the Maoris behaved exactly the same way as the Europeans did? Most of the tick boxes you gave describe exactly the European behaviour in the past 2000 years (and probably before, just less well documented) - and certainly prior to the middle of the 19th century.

Waging wars? YES - several big ones per century!
Holding slaves - YES! the British, The Spanish, The Portuguese, The Belgians and probably some other European Nations made lots of money with turning free people into slaves and selling them or forcing them to work for them.
Suppressing women - YES ... Europeans loved to do that. Some might say, some still do!
Bullying - YES - quite generic human trait!
Low Life Expectancy (prior to and around 1840) - YES - just look at child mortality in Europe prior to the introduction of vaccinations!

Obviously - Europeans had the bigger numbers, the more effective weapons and as well enough resistance to a lot of dangerous illnesses which they liberally spread under the Maoris in order to weaken and eradicate them - as they did previously with the red Indians in the Americas and other indigenous people.

You might well be right ... Europeans not a bit better than the Maoris - just more vicious :p;

I asked who would advocate for such a pre European society, so thanks for nominating yourself.

Thanks for completely side stepping my other points and list of benefits that colonisation introduced to NZ.

If I roll over and die on my points you have questioned, because I dont want to be typing here all day, the consensus between us is still that colonistion was a nett benefit to Maori, not the negative some portray.

Good on ya mate.

Where do you see race relations in NZ in 100 years from now?

BlackPeter
10-10-2021, 12:57 PM
I asked who would advocate for such a pre European society, so thanks for nominating yourself.

Thanks for completely side stepping my other points and list of benefits that colonisation introduced to NZ.

If I roll over and die on my points you have questioned, because I dont want to be typing here all day, the consensus between us is still that colonistion was a nett benefit to Maori, not the negative some portray.

Good on ya mate.

Where do you see race relations in NZ in 100 years from now?

Your historical understanding is clearly very limited and deeply biased. As a starter - NZ was never a colony, even if the British over some time clearly behaved like colonisers ... and yes - do some reading about the history of European colonialism - it is a dark chapter in our history full of dead and exploited people and blood spilled all over the floor.

Did humanity benefit from industrialisation and modern medicine? It depends whom you ask, but for the majority of people alive today (no matter whether they are white or brown) clearly yes. Has though nothing to do with colonisation which throughout history always used to be the subjugation and exploitation of the weaker group through the stronger group of people ... Law of the jungle.

Did Maoris benefit from being cheated and killed? Well, the ones which were cheated, suppressed and killed by the Brits probably not.

Do the surviving Maoris live today a better life than they would have had without any contact to the Europeans? Hard to measure. How do you define a good life? Life Expectancy? Freedom to choose? Self determination? The right to use their property as they see fit? The right to use the property we stole and cheated from their ancestors as they see fit? Pride? Education? Respect in the society? Happy family life?

I suppose measured in some of these categories (and there will be many more) do they live these days a better life and in some a worse. Maybe we should ask them how they feel? Obviously - we can't ask the ones who died.

How do I see race relations in 100 years? Not sure this is a NZ specific question, but world wide is the reproduction rate of people of European descent below the rate to keep the population constant while the reproduction rate of many brown and black populations is well above this rate. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to extrapolate what this means for the future.

100 years are four generations or so, and at that stage the power balance as a consequence of this process will look quite different - in NZ as well as in the world. I do hope that the Europeans still manage to set up a fair system for races to live peacefully and respectfully with each other ... otherwise the stronger and more populous populations will do this for us, probably based on the experiences they had with us, the ex-colonisers.

I hope that we will be able to create a fair system, but if I listen to all the white superiorists and racists, than I do have my doubts it will work out well for us. I just hope that the people with darker skin don't treat our descendants in the same way we used to treat their parents.

Better would be if I could wish for the people with darker skin treating our children at that stage the same way as we treated them ... but I think in this case the Europeans need to change some things - and fast.

Panda-NZ-
10-10-2021, 01:09 PM
I hope that we will be able to create a fair system, but if I listen to all the white superiorists and racists, than I do have my doubts it will work out well for us. I just hope that the people with darker skin don't treat our descendants in the same way we used to treat their parents.


People can still divide and rule for many years within a democratic system. Ie how the US ends up with a business rich list of white male elites, and judges of the same type.

Bjauck
10-10-2021, 01:53 PM
People can still divide and rule for many years within a democratic system. Ie how the US ends up with a business rich list of white male elites, and judges of the same type.

SA Afrikaaner and NZ Pakeha: a major difference is that Pakeha is part of the majority ethnic grouping in their country, which persists (still) to this day.

Panda-NZ-
10-10-2021, 01:55 PM
Lots of others too in NZ, asians, pacific islanders etc.

Some of these groups could be growing even faster than maori.

fungus pudding
10-10-2021, 02:33 PM
Just reflecting on that song and the changing times. It was released in the mid 60s and acheived moderate success, when Rod Derrett was riding high with several spoof/comic type songs.
Generally it was accepted until almost 40 years later, 2004, someone decided to be offended and complained to the broadcasting authority.
The authority reviewed it and deemed it a novelty song, acceptable for radio play.
Would they make the same decision now - 17 years on?? There's something to ponder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lltk5zUgXZY&list=RDLltk5zUgXZY&start_radio=1&rv=Lltk5zUgXZY&t=6

Another song, initially a hit was Howard Morrison's take on Ahab the Arab. Morrison came up with Mori - the Hori.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO3lcUK029s

Several years later it was re-recorded as 'Howie - the Mowie'.
Feel free to be offended.

And then there was Lou and Simon with a rework of Trini Lopez's 'I'd like to be in America'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VJfEGZRmPU

macduffy
10-10-2021, 02:46 PM
Nothing to be said about the Labour govt?

This thread seems to be drifting further and further away from its subject.

Balance
10-10-2021, 03:08 PM
Nothing to be said about the Labour govt?

This thread seems to be drifting further and further away from its subject.

Cindy says COVID for Christmas for South Islanders.

Bjauck
10-10-2021, 03:10 PM
Nothing to be said about the Labour govt?

This thread seems to be drifting further and further away from its subject. Yep diversion was a way of coping with an unfolding mushroom cloud. We should face up to the imploding Labour government policy as we face up to the consequences of a late vaccination program and epidemic spread from porous boundaries and a gently-gently approach to gangs and rule breakers.

Getty
10-10-2021, 03:12 PM
Nothing to be said about the Labour govt?

This thread seems to be drifting further and further away from its subject.

Not at all.

It's very much about the Labour party and its race based agenda's, much of which was not released prior to election.

fungus pudding
11-10-2021, 08:11 AM
That would have been too mild? Europeans used burning slowly at the stake, the rack, the Iron Maiden (not the musicians!) and let's not forget the depraved hanging, drawing and quartering amongst other disgusting treatments of their prisoners. Now let us discuss who was civilised?

Certainly not the Maoris - which is not a criticism, but an observation. They lagged far behind most of the world in transport, science, communication and so much else that civilisation brought us; their political structure was tribal, they had no written language in much the same way as so much the world once lagged behind the mighty Roman Empire and their contribution to civilisation.
Stable food supply. Here are seven marks of a civilised society.
Social structure.
System of government.
Religious system.
Highly developed culture.
Advances in technology.
Highly developed written language.

Google define civilisation and you will find various definitions similat to above. Your question - 'who was more civilised? ' It's a no-contest.

Bjauck
11-10-2021, 09:15 AM
...
Google define civilisation and you will find various definitions similat to above. Your question - 'who was more civilised? ' It's a no-contest. You answered a somewhat different question to the one I posed.

Cambridge dictionary: A civilized society (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/society) or country (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/country) has a well developed (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/developed)system (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/system) of government (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/government), culture (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/culture), and way of life (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/life) and that treats (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/treat) the people (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/people) who live (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/live) there fairly (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/fairly)
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/civilized

So who failed that definition more abjectly?

BlackPeter
11-10-2021, 09:17 AM
Certainly not the Maoris - which is not a criticism, but an observation. They lagged far behind most of the world in transport, science, communication and so much else that civilisation brought us; their political structure was tribal, they had no written language in much the same way as so much the world once lagged behind the mighty Roman Empire and their contribution to civilisation.
Stable food supply. Here are seven marks of a civilised society.
Social structure.
System of government.
Religious system.
Highly developed culture.
Advances in technology.
Highly developed written language.

Google define civilisation and you will find various definitions similat to above. Your question - 'who was more civilised? ' It's a no-contest.

I don't think this is the point.

Clearly - Maoris are (as a race) neither better nor worse than the Europeans, neither more nor less cruel than the Europeans ... they are just as human (with all the good, the bad and the ugly) as we all are (if we ignore for a couple of minutes the bots on some of the conspiracy threads ... :).

And of course - they have been at the time Europeans arrived here in an earlier stage of their development (which is reflected in their level of "being civilised", like their form of "government", their norms and their technology at that time), not different to e.g. a bunch of Europeans would have been who started rowing 5000 years ago and ended up in a small group on some remote island without any contact to the rest of the world.

Our big technological advantage came not from being better or more intelligent in any way, shape or form, but from living on a continent with lots of other people. That's the thing - if you live together on a huge continent (Eurasia) with (over the centuries) tens and hundreds of millions of other people, than you need only one in say ten million with one good idea and everybody can (and does) copy it (like using a wheel for transport, using iron for tools, developing black powder for propelling bullets, developing better crops to feed your people, furthering medicine).

If you live however together with just some tens of thousand of people without communication to the rest of the world on a remote island, than the odds are not good that all the one in ten million geniuses you need to develop modern technology are part of your group - nothing to copy, and you stay behind.

Was it good for this group of people to be "colonized" by the people who happened to have the opportunity to copy good ideas form others due to growing up on the large continent? Well, it certainly helped them to further their technological development. Whether it did help them to further their well being is a different question ... and as discussed earlier, the answer to that is clearly very personal and subjective.

Quite amusing however when members of the occupiers try to tell the people who got occupied and cheated that clearly colonisation was good for them. Maybe, we should leave it to the Maoris to make this judgement call?

Balance
11-10-2021, 09:23 AM
I don't think this is the point.

Was it good for this group of people to be "colonized" by the people who happened to have the opportunity to copy good ideas form others due to growing up on the large continent? Well, it certainly helped them to further their technological development. Whether it did help them to further their well being is a different question ... and as discussed earlier, the answer to that is clearly very personal and subjective.

Quite amusing however when members of the occupiers try to tell the people who got occupied and cheated that clearly colonisation was good for them. Maybe, we should leave it to the Maoris to make this judgement call?

You forgot to mention inbreeding because of the limited gene pool.

fungus pudding
11-10-2021, 09:29 AM
You answered a somewhat different question to the one I posed.

Cambridge dictionary: A civilized society (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/society) or country (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/country) has a well developed (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/developed)system (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/system) of government (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/government), culture (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/culture), and way of life (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/life) and that treats (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/treat) the people (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/people) who live (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/live) there fairly (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/fairly)
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/civilized

So who failed that definition more abjectly?

If you consider the synonyms and antonyms of civilised, you will agree with me that you failed.

What is the synonym of Civilised?
courtly, cultured, delicate, elegant, graceful, humane, nice, polite, refined, tender, urbane.

Antonyms: atrocious, barbarian, barbaric, barbarous, brutal, cruel, inhuman, merciless, rude, savage, uncivilized, uncouth, untamed.

Getty
11-10-2021, 09:38 AM
I don't think this is the point.

Clearly - Maoris are (as a race) neither better nor worse than the Europeans, neither more nor less cruel than the Europeans ... they are just as human (with all the good, the bad and the ugly) as we all are (if we ignore for a couple of minutes the bots on some of the conspiracy threads ... :).

And of course - they have been at the time Europeans arrived here in an earlier stage of their development (which is reflected in their level of "being civilised" like their from of "government", their norms and their technology at that time), not different te e.g. a bunch of Europeans would have been who started rowing 5000 years ago and ended up in a small group on some remote island without any contact to the rest of the world.

Our big technological advantage came not from being better or more intelligent in any way, shape or form, but from living on a continent with lots of other people. That's the thing - if you live together on a huge continent (Eurasia) with (over the centuries) tens and hundreds of millions of other people, than you need only one in say ten million with one good idea and everybody can (and does) copy it (like using a wheel for transport, using iron for tools, developing black powder for propelling bullets, developing better crops to feed your people, furthering medicine).

If you live however together with just some tens of thousand of people without communication to the rest of the world on a remote island, than the odds are not good that all the one in ten million geniuses you need to develop modern technology are part of your group - nothing to copy, and you stay behind.

Was it good for this group of people to be "colonized" by the people who happened to have the opportunity to copy good ideas form others due to growing up on the large continent? Well, it certainly helped them to further their technological development. Whether it did help them to further their well being is a different question ... and as discussed earlier, the answer to that is clearly very personal and subjective.

Quite amusing however when members of the occupiers try to tell the people who got occupied and cheated that clearly colonisation was good for them. Maybe, we should leave it to the Maoris to make this judgement call?

Do you concede the Europeans treated Maori a lot better, than Maori treated Moriori?

BlackPeter
11-10-2021, 09:38 AM
You forgot to mention inbreeding because of the limited gene pool.

True ... but wasn't this the problem in the European royal houses as well?

And if you consider that all Caucasians can be genetically traced back to only 7 females some ten thousand of years ago (after the last ice age), than I am not sure it would be up to us to point with the finger, brother :);

And didn't mention somebody our "advanced" religion? If that would be the case than we are all brothers and sisters created by the inbreeding of Adam and Eve's children. Pretty disgusting and worst example for inbreeding anybody could think about.

Always good to be careful to point with the finger - it is always three fingers pointing back to you.

Balance
11-10-2021, 09:44 AM
True ... but wasn't this the problem in the European royal houses as well?

And if you consider that all Caucasians can be genetically traced back to only 7 females some ten thousand of years ago (after the last ice age), than I am not sure it would be up to us to point with the finger, brother :);

And didn't mention somebody our "advanced" religion? If that would be the case than we are all brothers and sisters created by the inbreeding of Adam and Eve's children. Pretty disgusting and worst example for inbreeding anybody could think about.

Always good to be careful to point with the finger - it is always three fingers pointing back to you.

I am not pointing any fingers - simply pointing out the obvious.

BlackPeter
11-10-2021, 09:58 AM
Do you concede the Europeans treated Maori a lot better, than Maori treated Moriori?

Not quite sure, whether the Moriori history is already fully researched and understood (if it is, than I don't know about it enough), but I am sure it is fair to say that

Some Europeans treated some Maori better than some Maori treated some Moriori.

I am however sure that it is as well true that some Europeans treated some Maori much worse than some Maori treated some Moriori.

There have been some good and decent Europeans as well as bad, and the same is true for the Maoris.

Generalisations are often convenient but always wrong ...

The other thing you need to consider is the time in which these things happened. Maoris have been quite lucky that Europeans discovered them rather late in history when humanistic ideas started to float around in Europe. Still hundred years before Europeans have been quite happy to capture and kill indigenous people at their whim (e.g. in Africa and / or the Americas) whenever it suited them unless they have been more useful as slaves.

Balance
11-10-2021, 10:08 AM
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/kalloongoo-s-story-lays-bare-the-horrors-of-slavery-and-subjugation-20210826-p58m8e.html

How the Aussies treated the aboriginal people during colonial times.

JBmurc
11-10-2021, 10:21 AM
Nothing to be said about the Labour govt?

This thread seems to be drifting further and further away from its subject.

I heard this morning that Labour Blew 50mill+ on the cycleway bridge idea ... but they have no extra funds for core NZ needs ..nurse pay rise - phamac etc

I'd hate to know the total amount this Bunch of incompetents has blown on pet projects that never had a hope of going ahead ...and its not like its even our money as we had to borrowed 50Bill from the FED - JUNE21

Balance
11-10-2021, 10:40 AM
I heard this morning that Labour Blew 50mill+ on the cycleway bridge idea ... but they have no extra funds for core NZ needs ..nurse pay rise - phamac etc

Yup - $51m.

Add to that the $50m+ and counting on Pike River, $100m for fixing maraes and hundreds of millions of $$$$ in employing thousands more civil servants & PR staff to do nothing but sell spin.

Bjauck
11-10-2021, 11:12 AM
If you consider the synonyms and antonyms of civilised, you will agree with me that you failed.

What is the synonym of Civilised?
courtly, cultured, delicate, elegant, graceful, humane, nice, polite, refined, tender, urbane.

Antonyms: atrocious, barbarian, barbaric, barbarous, brutal, cruel, inhuman, merciless, rude, savage, uncivilized, uncouth, untamed. I was not referring to failure from either thee or me.

In any case, your synonyms and antonyms could apply both to Maori and European societies.

davflaws
11-10-2021, 11:53 AM
You forgot to mention inbreeding because of the limited gene pool.

I suspect this is further evidence of your racism rather than simple ignorance of population genetics

davflaws
11-10-2021, 12:01 PM
Do you concede the Europeans treated Maori a lot better, than Maori treated Moriori?

Maori (Ngati Mutunga and another Taranaki hapu who's name I have forgotten) treated Moriori very badly indeed after a European captain transported them to invade the Chathams in the early 1800s.

The idea that Moriori were the original inhabitants of Aotearoa and Maori were later arrivals who drove them out is a racist trope used (as you have used it) to justify (tu quoque) the behavior of European colonisers.

Getty
11-10-2021, 12:21 PM
Maori (Ngati Mutunga and another Taranaki hapu who's name I have forgotten) treated Moriori very badly indeed after a European captain transported them to invade the Chathams in the early 1800s.

The idea that Moriori were the original inhabitants of Aotearoa and Maori were later arrivals who drove them out is a racist trope used (as you have used it) to justify (tu quoque) the behavior of European colonisers.

You have passed your judgement.

I invite others to go to Wikipedia, and read Pre Maori settlement of New Zealand theories, all of it,including what happened to mainland Moriori, and other theories, not just any bit that may suit your judgement.

I also recommend reading Martin Doutre's book, Ancient Celtic NZ.

Many dont know their true Whakapapa, witness Willie Jackson, the unlikely Jew.

Balance
11-10-2021, 12:38 PM
You have passed your judgement.

I invite others to go to Wikipedia, and read Pre Maori settlement of New Zealand theories, all of it,including what happened to mainland Moriori, and other theories, not just the bit that suits your judgement.

I also recommend reading Martin Doutre's book, Ancient Celtic NZ.

Many dont know their true Whakapapa, witness Willie Jackson, the unlikely Jew.

How the Moriori were slaughtered, enslaved, eaten and decimated by the Maoris - because they chose peace over war.

https://teara.govt.nz/en/moriori

Definitely does not suit the likes of davflaws as his only excuse for failing anything is racism.

Does not suit this Cindy government either because it does not fit their narrative that the Maoris are fit for purpose to co-govern NZ in all matters.

Getty
11-10-2021, 12:48 PM
How the Moriori were slaughtered, enslaved, eaten and decimated by the Maoris - because they chose peace over war.

https://teara.govt.nz/en/moriori

Definitely does not suit the likes of davflaws as his only excuse for failing anything is racism.

Yes, and along those lines, in light of the removal of Race overtones in sports teams names globally, very PC, the Warriors rugby league team could be renamed? as? any suggestions davflaws? or any body else?

My crew know them as the Worriers..

greater fool
11-10-2021, 12:57 PM
Yes, and along those lines, in light of the removal of Race overtones in sports teams names globally, very PC, the Warriors rugby league team could be renamed? as? any suggestions davflaws? or any body else?


Losers?
However, the team has left NZ, and surely there's a possibility, gone, never to return. Now they're Aussies.

Balance
11-10-2021, 01:31 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-the-week-the-governments-world-beating-covid-response-lost-its-way/IKFKIXRNN2JQ64Q3LWNNKRGPJI/

Lost in spin - Completely Clueless Cindy & her team of nincompoops and Bloomfield singing from 2 song sheets, one as incoherent as the other.

Excerpt :

Leaks are a perennial nuisance for people in politics, but not usually like this. An innocuous question about the easing of restrictions for locked down Auckland – when you visit a friend for an outdoor, distanced catchup, can you use their toilet? – generated contradictory answers from the two superstars of New Zealand's Covid response, Jacinda Ardern and Ashley Bloomfield, last Monday, and the confusion trickled through the week.

Of itself, so what. It's hardly the biggest deal in the world; the prospects of a police officer frog-marching you from the bathroom are not high. But the permissibility of Aucklanders peeing in their friends' toilets encapsulated something wider. New Zealand had arrived at a scenario so familiar around the world these last 18 months. Decision making on the hoof. Flip-flopping on rules. Muddled, muddy messaging.

The prime minister referred to the elimination strategy in the past tense. The director general of health said elimination remained the approach.

One of the most damning verdicts on last week came from one of our most admired public health experts, Michael Baker. "I think this is a week we'd all rather forget in terms of New Zealand's Covid-19 response because I think it's been a disaster," he told Newshub.

Covid for Christmas - Cindy's gift to the South Islanders.

Panda-NZ-
11-10-2021, 01:46 PM
One of the most damning verdicts on last week came from one of our most admired public health experts, Michael Baker. "I think this is a week we'd all rather forget in terms of New Zealand's Covid-19 response because I thinkit's been a disaster," he told Newshub.

Covid for Christmas - Cindy's gift to the South Islanders.

They're following the Balance approach of opening up, which sometimes results in a disaster, but we have vaccines now.

Bjauck
11-10-2021, 01:56 PM
Yes, and along those lines, in light of the removal of Race overtones in sports teams names globally, very PC, the Warriors rugby league team could be renamed? as? any suggestions davflaws? or any body else?

My crew know them as the Worriers.. Is "Warrior" a term that pertains to a particular race? Unlike
"Crusader" which pertains more to a particular religion and specifically to those on one side of a religious war.

dobby41
11-10-2021, 02:00 PM
Is "Warrior" a term that pertains to a particular race? Unlike
"Crusader" which pertains more to a particular religion and specifically to those on one side of a religious war.

'Crusader' is often associated with Christianity and the Crusades.
But, of course, people go on a crusade about many things now.
It could be said that Greta is on a Climate Change crusade.

Balance
11-10-2021, 02:19 PM
Is "Warrior" a term that pertains to a particular race? Unlike
"Crusader" which pertains more to a particular religion and specifically to those on one side of a religious war.

The way the Maoris almost totally wiped out a peaceful people who offered zero resistance means they should think twice before using Warriors in anything. They are anything but warriors.

davflaws
11-10-2021, 03:11 PM
The way the Maoris almost totally wiped out a peaceful people who offered zero resistance means they should think twice before using Warriors in anything. They are anything but warriors.

Who is "they"?

And you forgot the bit about "Clueless Cindy and Covid for Xmas".

Bjauck
11-10-2021, 03:18 PM
The way the Maoris almost totally wiped out a peaceful people who offered zero resistance means they should think twice before using Warriors in anything. They are anything but warriors. However not even a shadow of the long history of barbaric events committed by Europeans?

fungus pudding
11-10-2021, 03:29 PM
I was not referring to failure from either thee or me.

In any case, your synonyms and antonyms could apply both to Maori and European societies.

Yes, they could. But not as common by any means.
Have you seen Alan Duff's movie 'Once were warriors'?
Was there any truth in the depiction of Duff's characters?

Do some research on prison/court stats. and ask a few criminal psychologists or police.

Here is Duffs own experience which could make a starting point for you, although I suspect your mind is not open to this information if you don't already realise the problems in NZ society. "Once Were Warriors, and Duff's fiction in general is strongly influenced by his childhood experiences. In his 1999 autobiography, Out of the Mist and Steam, he describes his Māori mother (and most of her relatives) as alcoholic, irresponsible and physically and emotionally abusive. His Pākehā father and his relatives, by contrast, were highly educated and sophisticated—one uncle, Roger Duff, was a well-known anthropologist; his paternal grandfather was liberal magazine editor and literary patron Oliver Duff."

Bjauck
11-10-2021, 03:41 PM
...
Here is Duffs own experience which could make a starting point for you, although I suspect your mind is not open to this information if you don't already realise the problems in NZ society. ..." You do make some assumptions in tangential asides!

FWIW I am totally aware of the problems in contemporary NZ society, and unlike some I think both the criminality and and the socio-economic factors behind it should be addressed.

BlackPeter
11-10-2021, 04:27 PM
The way the Maoris almost totally wiped out a peaceful people who offered zero resistance means they should think twice before using Warriors in anything. They are anything but warriors.

Yep, pretty disgusting if its true, however well topped by plenty of genocides across the globe, many of them executed as well by Europeans.

The native American genocide (some 50 to 100 million innocent natives killed over roughly 500 years) was executed mainly by people with European roots mainly coming from Britain and Spain). Disgusting lot.

The famous holocaust (5 ... 6 million innocent Jews killed in German occupied areas of Europe) was executed by European people (Germans and support staff from most East European countries). Disgusting lot.

Holodomor - Stalins equivalent of the holocaust killed between 2.5 and 7.5 million innocent people (the big span is because many have been killed by famine, death not so easily attributable ...) was executed by Russians. Disgusting lot.

I could go on like that for hours ... here is a link for anybody interested to get a fuller picture, including even the Queensland Aboriginal genocide committed by our Australian brothers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides_by_death_toll

... and I don't remember any race or people which didn't commit at some stage crimes against humanity, if they had the opportunity to do so. Same with all major religions. Disgusting people the humans. No point to point fingers to one specific group of people or race.

But know what makes humans really disgusting? Some of them, and it is often the worst of them, see only the flaws of the others and think that they / their race, nation or religion is superior. These people really are a disgusting lot.

Panda-NZ-
11-10-2021, 04:57 PM
There was the US civil war -- to free the enslaved black populations and defeat the rebels.

Also some british interventions to end slavery on principle.

I do think the statues for these losers should be taken down in the southern states.

Getty
11-10-2021, 05:03 PM
Yep, pretty disgusting if its true, however well topped by plenty of genocides across the globe, many of them executed as well by Europeans.

The native American genocide (some 50 to 100 million innocent natives killed over roughly 500 years) was executed mainly by people with European roots mainly coming from Britain and Spain). Disgusting lot.

The famous holocaust (5 ... 6 million innocent Jews killed in German occupied areas of Europe) was executed by European people (Germans and support staff from most East European countries). Disgusting lot.

Holodomor - Stalins equivalent of the holocaust killed between 2.5 and 7.5 million innocent people (the big span is because many have been killed by famine, death not so easily attributable ...) was executed by Russians. Disgusting lot.

I could go on like that for hours ... here is a link for anybody interested to get a fuller picture, including even the Queensland Aboriginal genocide committed by our Australian brothers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides_by_death_toll

... and I don't remember any race or people which didn't commit at some stage crimes against humanity, if they had the opportunity to do so. Same with all major religions. Disgusting people the humans. No point to point fingers to one specific group of people or race.

But know what makes humans really disgusting? Some of them, and it is often the worst of them, see only the flaws of the others and think that they / their race, nation or religion is superior. These people really are a disgusting lot.

So is the upshot of all of that, that when Europeans arrived in NZ, they would have felt perfectly at home with Maori, and didn't have to teach them a thing?

BlackPeter
11-10-2021, 05:14 PM
So is the upshot of all of that, that when Europeans arrived in NZ, they would have felt perfectly at home with Maori, and didn't have to teach them a thing?

You clearly didn't listen ... :p;

dobby41
11-10-2021, 05:15 PM
So is the upshot of all of that, that when Europeans arrived in NZ, they would have felt perfectly at home with Maori, and didn't have to teach them a thing?

They probably could have taught Maori how to do it better :D

dobby41
11-10-2021, 05:17 PM
I'm not following why we are discussing who is the more violent group?
All humans have a very violent past, some more recent than others.

Getty
11-10-2021, 05:21 PM
They probably could have taught Maori how to do it better :D

Well, their teachings have been very successful, because I'm trying to work out how we descended from that equal nirvana, to 2021 where Maori Stats are dismal by comparison.

davflaws
11-10-2021, 05:22 PM
Yes, they could. But not as common by any means.
Have you seen Alan Duff's movie 'Once were warriors'?
Was there any truth in the depiction of Duff's characters?

Do some research on prison/court stats. and ask a few criminal psychologists or police.

Don't need to - been there done that, sat with lotsa "Jake"s and their whanau. Duff accurately portrayed the lives of many on the bottom of the heap.


In his 1999 autobiography, Out of the Mist and Steam, he describes his Māori mother (and most of her relatives) as alcoholic, irresponsible and physically and emotionally abusive. His Pākehā father and his relatives, by contrast, were highly educated and sophisticated—one uncle, Roger Duff, was a well-known anthropologist; his paternal grandfather was liberal magazine editor and literary patron Oliver Duff."

If your analysis stops there - the conclusion is easy. "Pakehafy" those alcoholic, irresponsible and abusive Maori and make them sophisticated and highly educated. Then they will behave better and bootstrap themselves off the bottom of the heap.

But the question remains HOW? My experience and a variety of research suggests that improving the social and economic condition of indigenous people is most effective when governance and resources are devolved. If programs have clear contractual outcomes and clear accountability, they work.

davflaws
11-10-2021, 05:43 PM
Well, their teachings have been very successful, because I'm trying to work out how we descended from that equal nirvana, to 2021 where Maori Stats are dismal by comparison.

I don't know whether you actually want to know, but there was no equal nirvana. By the time te tiriti was signed, Maori still had almost all the land, had eagerly adopted all the technology available, and were outcompeting Europeans in many key economic areas.

Like many other indigenous people at about that time, they were swamped by waves of European immigration and ultimately beaten in the Land Wars by professional invading armies. Subsequent colonisation swamped them on every level. They lost any hope of parity intellectually, politically, culturally and socially.

Confiscation alienation and loss of land and the economic base it provided harmed them economically and culturally. The effects of this disadvantage were multiplied oversubsequent generations until at least 1960. I understand the gaps closed a bit between then and Rogernomics when a growing gap between the top and the bottom made everyone on the bottom relatively worse off.

Getty
11-10-2021, 06:24 PM
I don't know whether you actually want to know, but there was no equal nirvana. By the time te tiriti was signed, Maori still had almost all the land, had eagerly adopted all the technology available, and were outcompeting Europeans in many key economic areas.

Like many other indigenous people at about that time, they were swamped by waves of European immigration and ultimately beaten in the Land Wars by professional invading armies. Subsequent colonisation swamped them on every level. They lost any hope of parity intellectually, politically, culturally and socially.

Confiscation alienation and loss of land and the economic base it provided harmed them economically and culturally. The effects of this disadvantage were multiplied oversubsequent generations until at least 1960. I understand the gaps closed a bit between then and Rogernomics when a growing gap between the top and the bottom made everyone on the bottom relatively worse off.

https://youtu.be/N4ltLp30KVs
I want to know all right.

Thanks to some of you blokes, I'm becoming edumicated.

Learning history at school was never as much fun as this thread.

I'm reminded of that line from Paul Simons song Kodachrome; "when I think back on all that crap I learnt at high school, it's a wonder I can think at all..."

All that stuff I was told about Maori chiefs selling land they had never walked on, for a few blankets, and a bottle of whiskey!
And that young Ngapuhi, Hone Heke, would give anything away , to get his hands on some muskets!

If Jacinda has a vacant spot in a re unification camp, I'm in!

Getty
11-10-2021, 07:22 PM
Speaking of high school, Dover Samuels and I used to get the cane for speaking Te Reo,

We've got over it, but what we can't understand is why our mokopuna say they had the same thing, 15 years after corporal punishment was abolished!

Ah, the young, and all their myths and legends eh?.

Getty
11-10-2021, 07:35 PM
Referring to our earlier postings on the Chatham Islands, I've just seen on TV1, they have 100% first covid jabbed.

Makes a mockery of all the palava we get fed about hard to reach communities!

Must be a different gene pool eh?

Balance
11-10-2021, 09:18 PM
This was Cindy on mandatory/forced vaccination (22 Sept 2021) :

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/09/coronavirus-jacinda-ardern-confident-enough-kiwis-will-get-covid-19-vaccine-for-herd-immunity-without-being-forced-to.html

"Jacinda Ardern went a step further, saying not only will there be no forced vaccinations, but those who choose to opt-out won't face any penalties at all."

This is Clueless Cindy via Hipkins today:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/453327/mandatory-vaccinations-announced-for-health-education-sector-workers

Mandatory vaccinations announced for health, education sector workers.

Running out of spin & options after her lockdown cure all remedy for covid failed and luck ran out at the same time.

Clueless Cindy Credibility is Completely Gone - except with the indoctrinated Cindy devotees.

dobby41
12-10-2021, 08:32 AM
This was Cindy on mandatory/forced vaccination (22 Sept 2021) :


Slipped a year? That article is from 22/Sept 2020
A year is a long time with Covid and Delta.

Ah - but do you agree with it? (Of course, the person isn't forced to be vaccinated (which is what is in the first sentence of that article), the job is. You'll see that is weasel words but the distinction is important.)
I know you have problems agreeing with stuff you like if it comes from certain people (a character flaw people often fall into).
If they mandate no jab no job and no jab no pub will you complain about that as well even if you agree?

Balance
12-10-2021, 08:33 AM
Going back on her assurances about no penalties for not getting the vaccine & unable to articulate a strategy against delta - all indicative of COVID Cindy showing who she really is - clueless.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/126641512/when-straight-talk-was-needed-jacinda-wasnt-there

Balance
12-10-2021, 08:37 AM
Slipped a year? That article is from 22/Sept 2020
A year is a long time with Covid and Delta.

Ah - but do you agree with it? (Of course, the person isn't forced to be vaccinated (which is what is in the first sentence of that article), the job is. You'll see that is weasel words but the distinction is important.)
I know you have problems agreeing with stuff you like if it comes from certain people (a character flaw people often fall into).
If they mandate no jab no job and no jab no pub will you complain about that as well even if you agree?

Weasel words indeed - like increasing the fuel tax is not a new tax because there is already a fuel tax?

Clueless Cindy under pressure shows she is cracking because she is all spin, no substance & no delivery.

winner69
12-10-2021, 08:52 AM
Poor Jacinda can’t win

Goes on telly for an hour and ..

Not a mention of the South Island and the Chamber lady all grumpy

And no mention of business ….so Auckland man all grumpy

Can’t please everybody

BlackPeter
12-10-2021, 08:52 AM
This was Cindy on mandatory/forced vaccination (22 Sept 2021) :

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/09/coronavirus-jacinda-ardern-confident-enough-kiwis-will-get-covid-19-vaccine-for-herd-immunity-without-being-forced-to.html

"Jacinda Ardern went a step further, saying not only will there be no forced vaccinations, but those who choose to opt-out won't face any penalties at all."

This is Clueless Cindy via Hipkins today:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/453327/mandatory-vaccinations-announced-for-health-education-sector-workers

Mandatory vaccinations announced for health, education sector workers.

Running out of spin & options after her lockdown cure all remedy for covid failed and luck ran out at the same time.

Clueless Cindy Credibility is Completely Gone - except with the indoctrinated Cindy devotees.

Sigh ... damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. It does not matter at all what she is doing and you are caning her?

I am not a particular fan of her either, even if I think that there are some things she did right ... and obviously many things she either promised but didn't succeed in doing as well as things she didn't talk about but now tries to ram down our throat. However - caning her for everything she does including doing the right thing makes in my view any justified criticism less credible and effective.

I am all for mandatory vaccinations of health and teaching staff (and some more ....) . Makes sense - best way to protect the public. Good on her for enacting that (well, we will see - here is hoping) ... and hey, if she did change her mind about this subject on the way - I do that as well, if the information and / or the circumstances change - what about you?

dobby41
12-10-2021, 08:53 AM
Weasel words indeed - like increasing the fuel tax is not a new tax because there is already a fuel tax?

Clueless Cindy under pressure shows she is cracking because she is all spin, no substance & no delivery.

You didn't even bother to correct your post.
Your record here isn't very good.

So, do you agree with the job mandate and just disagree with the messenger or do you disagree with the mandate?

Balance
12-10-2021, 09:22 AM
Poor Jacinda can’t win

Goes on telly for an hour and ..

Not a mention of the South Island and the Chamber lady all grumpy

And no mention of business ….so Auckland man all grumpy

Can’t please everybody

Because most of NZers can now see Cindy is Clueless.

She has squandered the sacrifices made in the last year and half :

- no increase in healthcare facilities & capacities,

- immigration in a shambles so healthcare services are understaffed,

- MIQ facilities still in the heart of NZ's biggest population city (the virus loves her for that),

- borrowing $1 billion a week to bequeath to future generations to shoulder,

- last in the queue to roll out a proper vaccination program (where's the first in the queue),

- the list goes on and on!

Balance
12-10-2021, 09:27 AM
https://www.nbr.co.nz/node/232030

This sums Adern the best :

"Clueless Cindy sends Auckland into deep coma with no wake-up plan."

Anyone of you with family or friends in business in Auckland will know that the situation out there is getting desperate for them, more so with a government which plays the race card (to distract from its non-delivery of the huge promises it made to get into power) to stay in power to screw up NZ even more for future generations.

Kiwibuild & affordable homes, anyone?

Covid for Christmas instead.

dobby41
12-10-2021, 10:01 AM
Weasel words indeed - like increasing the fuel tax is not a new tax because there is already a fuel tax?

Clueless Cindy under pressure shows she is cracking because she is all spin, no substance & no delivery.

So you are just a lot of huff. No substance.

I'll ask again.
So, do you agree with the job mandate and just disagree with the messenger or do you disagree with the mandate?

Balance
12-10-2021, 10:48 AM
So you are just a lot of huff. No substance.

I'll ask again.
So, do you agree with the job mandate and just disagree with the messenger or do you disagree with the mandate?

Does not matter what I think - more important that Cindy is delivering COVID for Christmas & she is clueless how to contain it except by making decisions on the hoof. Reactive and killing businesses & piling on debt with no coherent plan.

Bjauck
12-10-2021, 10:51 AM
Referring to our earlier postings on the Chatham Islands, I've just seen on TV1, they have 100% first covid jabbed.

Makes a mockery of all the palava we get fed about hard to reach communities!

Must be a different gene pool eh? How does the “gene pool” of the current population on the Chathams differ from the rest of NZ?

Getty
12-10-2021, 11:29 AM
How does the “gene pool” of the current population on the Chathams differ from the rest of NZ?

You love getting bogged down in semantics, but read back through the thread, and you will get the context.

dobby41
12-10-2021, 11:34 AM
Does not matter what I think - more important that Cindy is delivering COVID for Christmas & she is clueless how to contain it except by making decisions on the hoof. Reactive and killing businesses & piling on debt with no coherent plan.

You huff and puff.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
Why won't you stand up and be counted? Try to get a bit of credibility.

Bjauck
12-10-2021, 11:44 AM
You love getting bogged down in semantics, but read back through the thread, and you will get the context. Pesky details!

Getty
12-10-2021, 11:47 AM
Pesky details!

Yes, now behave yourself, or you will be exiled to the Chathams!

Bjauck
12-10-2021, 11:54 AM
Yes, now behave yourself, or you will be exiled to the Chathams! 100% vaccination first jabs, fresh crayfish - paradise.

Getty
12-10-2021, 11:56 AM
100% vaccination first jabs, fresh crayfish - paradise.

Yes, I was being Kind, as per Jacinda's edicts.

davflaws
12-10-2021, 12:17 PM
100% vaccination first jabs, fresh crayfish - paradise.

The crayfish come with White Pointers - see the photos of guys framed with their jaws. I think the bumps I can currently feel on the top of my head are probably my testicles!

RTM
12-10-2021, 07:50 PM
You huff and puff.
Em Covid 19 Delta outbreak: Simon Wilson - Angry, cocky confidence is Covid's other infectious disease

Why won't you stand up and be counted? Try to get a bit of credibility.

Yes, it’s disappointing, isn’t it.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12478063 pty vessels make the most noise.

Balance
12-10-2021, 09:40 PM
Yes, it’s disappointing, isn’t it.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12478063 pty vessels make the most noise.

Fools seldom differ. Especially the indoctrinated devotees of Clueless Cindy who all sing from the same song sheet - ‘COVID bad, only Cindy can defeat COVID.’

Fortunately there are enough of us who get angry and see through Cindy’s spin.

fungus pudding
13-10-2021, 09:46 AM
Fortunately there are enough of us who get angry and see through Cindy’s spin.

And plenty who don't.

13091

Balance
13-10-2021, 09:47 AM
From the Coronavirus thread :


A more sobering article on the state of shortages despite the governments rhetoric.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126653447/covid19-frontline-hospital-workers-warn-patients-will-die-without-boosted-staff-levels#comments

It’s probably hard for the layperson to understand but ICU is very different and rather complex in its requirements for specialty staff. To think staff from other departments can fill the voids with limited training is farcical and only serves government sound bites on how prepared they are. Time for a Tui.

Turning to con now that the spin is not working for Clueless Cindy & her team of incompetents.

winner69
13-10-2021, 09:51 AM
Bit of a worry there's a proposed new law giving the health ministry powers to commandeer private testing labs and supplies in the event of a severe covid outbreak.

Balance
13-10-2021, 09:56 AM
Bit of a worry there's a proposed new law giving the health ministry powers to commandeer private testing labs and supplies in the event of a severe covid outbreak.

Turning to robbery now that spin is not working.

BlackPeter
13-10-2021, 10:02 AM
Bit of a worry there's a proposed new law giving the health ministry powers to commandeer private testing labs and supplies in the event of a severe covid outbreak.

I guess, depends on which definition of "commandeer" you pick.

13092

Number 2 sounds reasonable, doesn't it? This definition is similar to what the word "require" means in the resource management act.

fungus pudding
13-10-2021, 10:04 AM
Bit of a worry there's a proposed new law giving the health ministry powers to commandeer private testing labs and supplies in the event of a severe covid outbreak.

The govt. can pretty much commandeer whatever they like in an emergency.

Balance
13-10-2021, 10:30 AM
The govt. can pretty much commandeer whatever they like in an emergency.

An emergency it created by smugly sitting on its hands for the last 18 months.

dobby41
13-10-2021, 10:46 AM
deleted deleted

Balance
13-10-2021, 11:00 AM
From coronavirus thread, workingdad writing as a frontline worker:




I agree, the government has been chasing their tails for a while now, initially I thought the response was great but the poor preparation since has been appalling. The are reactive, easy to see the poor forward planning as though elimination was the only thing ever considered and no plan B.


And even now, Cindy is still fluffing about without any clue or clear direction as to how to get out of the hermit kingdom scenario.

Good example is the vaccine mandate for school teachers & staff. Principals & school boards are begging for full information & clear direction for eg as to what to do if staff refused to get vaccinated!

Reactive and incoherent piecemeal policy making on the hoof.

Announce, sow confusion and work out the details later - Clueless Cindy's modus operandi.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/education/covid-19-delta-outbreak-teacher-vaccine-mandate-principals-concerned-over-information-vacuum/

Excerpt :

"Principals were having serious conversations with staff about their future employment in a "vacuum" of information.

"There's just guesswork taking place about whether it really means 'no jab, no job'" when there could be other alternatives for those people, he said.

"We really have to act in ways that preserve our humanity when it comes to people's employment." (Cindy's advice - be kind remember?)

He did not know how many staff would be affected across the primary sector.

The Ministry of Education had set up a working group with the sector today but the details should have already been worked out, Rush said - given there are just four weeks until the first dose deadline.

Unbelievable!!!!!

Getty
13-10-2021, 11:34 AM
From coronavirus thread, workingdad writing as a frontline worker:



And even now, Cindy is still fluffing about without any clue or clear direction as to how to get out of the hermit kingdom scenario.


North Korea, Albania, Aotearoa, its all the same to comrade Little Red Robbing Hood!

davflaws
13-10-2021, 12:21 PM
Speaking of high school, Dover Samuels and I used to get the cane for speaking Te Reo,


Are you really 80 odd?

I knew Dover to say "Gidday" (no "Kia ora" in those days!) when we were mad young buggers bombing off to 200ft with spearguns to shoot puka. I developed sense enough to stop after getting bent, but he stayed silly and went into politics for his jollies.

Lotsa macho bull**** in both areas.

Getty
13-10-2021, 12:32 PM
Dover and I used to pride ourselves on having bums like hot cross buns.

Natural crack from top to bottom, crossed by cane marks left to right.

Every day was Easter Bumday to us...

fungus pudding
13-10-2021, 12:35 PM
Dover and I used to pride ourselves on having bums like hot cross buns.

Natural crack from top to bottom, crossed by cane marks left to right.

Every day was Easter Bumday to us...
Did they glaze them?

Getty
13-10-2021, 12:39 PM
The teachers eyes got glazed, but we knew how to earn our stripes!

BDL
13-10-2021, 06:08 PM
Jacinda Ardern: 'Climate change is my generation's nuclear-free moment'

Another lie, and the Green party and Maori party seem to be not concerned about it either.
What does the Green party stand for these days?
A lot of voters voted for this bunch on this policy alone.

Panda-NZ-
13-10-2021, 06:26 PM
There was an ETS as far back as 2008, though that was watered down for some reason (along with effluent being put into our water supplies).

iceman
13-10-2021, 10:04 PM
There was an ETS as far back as 2008, though that was watered down for some reason (along with effluent being put into our water supplies).
Introduced by National. Labour has not done anything about climate change despite the slogans and empty promises. Does anyone know what Jacinda Ardern actually stands for ?

Panda-NZ-
13-10-2021, 10:35 PM
Introduced by National. Labour has not done anything about climate change despite the slogans and empty promises. Does anyone know what Jacinda Ardern actually stands for ?

What nonsense... labour saw it as an issue even before it was an issue (like aussie labor) then National/Act immediately watered it down.

iceman
14-10-2021, 04:39 AM
What nonsense... Labour saw it as an issue even before it was an issue (like aussie labor) then National/Act immediately watered it down.

Introduced in 2008 by Nick Smith if I remember correctly.

Balance
14-10-2021, 08:49 AM
Introduced by National. Labour has not done anything about climate change despite the slogans and empty promises. Does anyone know what Jacinda Ardern actually stands for ?

Cindy stands for breeding more beneficiaries to build more Labour voters.

Balance
14-10-2021, 09:11 AM
So much for Andrew Little’s assertion that more than 100 more ICU beds have been added in the last 15 months.

Unable to deliver and knowing that spin does not work anymore, this government is now resorting to lies.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-nz-and-its-hospitals-overwhelmed-or-adequately-staffed/UBVZUG4QT3IQTJEZHSOCNCPXHI/

Capital and Coast District Health Board intensive care specialist Dr Paul Young spoke out after Health Minister Andrew Little told RNZ that since the pandemic began about 100 more ICU beds had been added nationally.

"Dear @AndrewLittleMP," he wrote on Twitter.

"I am afraid that your assertion that the number of staffed ICU beds has increased from 234 to 340 in the past 15 months is false.

"I challenge you to visit any ICU in the country and find one clinician (just one) who can show their newly staffed beds."

Balance
15-10-2021, 09:14 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/searching-for-a-home-a-mothers-mission-to-find-somewhere-to-live-in-a-cruel-market/U6YFDW6RDVHP5J6OZFLO2H72EM/

Cindy was going to make housing affordable and eradicate child poverty, remember?

A good example of how she has not only failed but failed spectacularly.

But hi, she has five additional voters in the future for the Labour Party. He strategy of breeding ever more beneficiaries is working!

peetter
16-10-2021, 01:15 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/searching-for-a-home-a-mothers-mission-to-find-somewhere-to-live-in-a-cruel-market/U6YFDW6RDVHP5J6OZFLO2H72EM/

Cindy was going to make housing affordable and eradicate child poverty, remember?

A good example of how she has not only failed but failed spectacularly.

But hi, she has five additional voters in the future for the Labour Party. He strategy of breeding ever more beneficiaries is working!

This is exactly what Labour wants. Step daddy government will pay for whatever many children can be squeezed out. Most of these children will grow with a rolemodel at home that never works and will expect the same type of lifestyle. Equals more voters.

These articles are all the same. Single mother, 4-12 children, no work. I mean what goes through your head when you have 2-3 children, already having problems feed the family, living in rental and you decide to get couple more children?

Panda-NZ-
16-10-2021, 02:00 AM
How much is childcare.. probably 4k per week all up.

Apart from the 4 year old it seems like they were all born under a National administration.

Balance
16-10-2021, 09:34 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300426130/mmp-at-25-mmp-has-changed-parliament-for-good-but-has-it-stopped-parliament-changing-new-zealand

“The mantra I developed coming towards the 1999 election was: ‘We’ll do what we say, and say what we do.’ Helen Clark

Under Clueless Cindy, we’ll spin & lie on not delivering what we say, and not say what we do by stealth.

greater fool
16-10-2021, 12:00 PM
How much is childcare.. probably 4k per week all up.

Apart from the 4 year old it seems like they were all born under a National administration.

Times of plenty?

iceman
17-10-2021, 01:35 AM
Times of plenty?

hahaha :t_up:

Panda-NZ-
17-10-2021, 01:53 AM
People are known to breed in more impoverished situations. It's one of the strongest links there is.

Africa = 5 to 6 kids per family.
Britain in 1900 = same.

The developed world today = 1 to 1.5.

Logen Ninefingers
17-10-2021, 09:06 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/searching-for-a-home-a-mothers-mission-to-find-somewhere-to-live-in-a-cruel-market/U6YFDW6RDVHP5J6OZFLO2H72EM/

Cindy was going to make housing affordable and eradicate child poverty, remember?

A good example of how she has not only failed but failed spectacularly.

But hi, she has five additional voters in the future for the Labour Party. He strategy of breeding ever more beneficiaries is working!

She’s getting more ‘income’ than many people who work full-time.

—————

‘Gartner's income is $1127 a week ($58,604 a year), made up of various benefits and disability allowances for her eldest son's medical needs. It doesn't go far.

Groceries for five kids: $400 a week. Payments on her car loan: $150. Repayments for various Work and Income hardship grants she's received over the years: $60.50.
She kicks in another $200 to her father's household bills.
Then there are fees for a rent-to-buy washing machine and dryer. Rental of a storage unit. Other debts to repay. Insurance. Petrol. Phone. Internet. Netflix for the kids.
On a good week, she might have $65 left over.’

artemis
17-10-2021, 10:29 AM
She’s getting more ‘income’ than many people who work full-time. ....

And that's with no rent to pay, maybe a little bit of the $200pw towards rent, and what looks like some serious debt. Not hard to see why some hundreds of landlords won't take a chance on her as a tenant, even though she might be a good one. Recent changes to tenancy rules make it a really bad decision to take on a potential risk.

Balance
17-10-2021, 11:51 AM
And that's with no rent to pay, maybe a little bit of the $200pw towards rent, and what looks like some serious debt. Not hard to see why some hundreds of landlords won't take a chance on her as a tenant, even though she might be a good one. Recent changes to tenancy rules make it a really bad decision to take on a potential risk.

It is impossible not to feel sorry for her 5 children. What kind of future do they really have when they are in a constant state of flux in education, accommodation and father?

Blame has to be laid squarely on the mother - what was she thinking when she had the last 3 children especially when she knew that the eldest one has special needs?

Then, there're the two dogs!

But the greatest blame is with the welfare system introduced by Clark & Cullen - 'Working for Family' which really should be renamed 'Working against Family'.

The way the system works, it is much better for any couple in her situation to live apart so as a solo parent, she can derive maximum payments and benefits from the welfare system. If they stay as a couple, they start losing out under the abatement system.

Have a look at a schedule of welfare payments depending on how many kids are produced by welfare beneficiaries in the table below :

https://www.ird.govt.nz/-/media/project/ir/home/documents/forms-and-guides/ir200---ir299/ir271-2022/ir271-2021.pdf?modified=20210308210347

As Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore said to John Key once, seems like NZ put in welfare systems without any idea of the outcome.

nztx
17-10-2021, 02:00 PM
But I'm the PM - I don't have to Pay


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/pms-wedding-stoush-jacinda-ardern-and-clarke-gayford-given-5000-bill-jilted-venue-owner-robin-pierson-says-dealings-insulting/KHSROFLW2FTBJAWYWHOADDN254/



Jacinda Ardern has cancelled her wedding venue and the angry owner says the Prime Minister won't pay a $5000 fee.

Robin Pierson - the owner of the Bushmere Arms venue, on the outskirts of Gisborne - says Ardern and her partner Clarke Gayford booked the venue two years ago but talks broke down after a stoush over catering by a Kiwi celebrity chef.

"Jacinda and Clarke came here two years ago, she sat on the barstool and said, 'We'd like to book our wedding here'," Pierson told the Herald on Sunday.


More at link

;)

dobby41
17-10-2021, 02:53 PM
But I'm the PM - I don't have to Pay


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/pms-wedding-stoush-jacinda-ardern-and-clarke-gayford-given-5000-bill-jilted-venue-owner-robin-pierson-says-dealings-insulting/KHSROFLW2FTBJAWYWHOADDN254/

More at link

;)

Interesting headline - not what was in the article at all.
You would expect her to pay whatever was in the contract.
I haven't seen the contract so don't know - have you seen it.
The owner sounds like a bit of a d1ck.

"They have offered me $1200 and I've yet to get back to them. They say my fee is 'unfounded' but It's not up to them to tell me what my cancellation fee is," Pierson said.
His cancellation fee would be in the contract - or maybe not so he doesn't 'deserve' anything. You can't just make it up and expect to be paid.

artemis
17-10-2021, 03:00 PM
It is impossible not to feel sorry for her 5 children. What kind of future do they really have when they are in a constant state of flux in education, accommodation and father?

Blame has to be laid squarely on the mother - what was she thinking when she had the last 3 children especially when she knew that the eldest one has special needs?.....

That's harsh. We don't know the circumstances and life can definitely chuck some curve balls. My post does lay blame, and it is on the current government for introducing rules and regs that protect tenants but introduce costs and risks for landlords. Who make decisions in their own best interests mostly.

There was another recent article in the media about a solo parent heading for transitional housing. There was no family they could stay with as they were all already in emergency housing. And almost certainly on the social housing waiting list.

It's a crisis for less than ideal tenants, and IMO a scandal.

Panda-NZ-
17-10-2021, 03:18 PM
That's harsh. We don't know the circumstances and life can definitely chuck some curve balls. My post does lay blame, and it is on the current government for introducing rules and regs that protect tenants but introduce costs and risks for landlords. Who make decisions in their own best interests mostly.

There was another recent article in the media about a solo parent heading for transitional housing. There was no family they could stay with as they were all already in emergency housing. And almost certainly on the social housing waiting list.

It's a crisis for less than ideal tenants, and IMO a scandal.

He seems to have missed that childcare costs either the state or person 4k for all of those kids.

The mother is doing us all a favour by caring for them herself.

Panda-NZ-
17-10-2021, 03:25 PM
What good is working when this happens:


The rise was put down to more parents in the workforce, and who were working longer hours, resulting in soaring childcare rolls.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/110773655/childcare-centres-defend-rising-fees-as-cost-of-raising-a-child-rises

National took away the training allowance to break this cycle and secure high paying roles with improved benefits like work life balance.

artemis
17-10-2021, 03:55 PM
....

National took away the training allowance to break this cycle and secure high paying roles with better work life balance.

Don't recall the details now as it was years ago and superseded by student loans. Same as everyone else. The current government has effectively reinstated the TIA.

Balance
17-10-2021, 05:49 PM
That's harsh. We don't know the circumstances and life can definitely chuck some curve balls. My post does lay blame, and it is on the current government for introducing rules and regs that protect tenants but introduce costs and risks for landlords. Who make decisions in their own best interests mostly.

There was another recent article in the media about a solo parent heading for transitional housing. There was no family they could stay with as they were all already in emergency housing. And almost certainly on the social housing waiting list.

It's a crisis for less than ideal tenants, and IMO a scandal.

Not only introducing the rules & regulations which drove up costs & rental prices but this government is so desperate that it is doing deals with developers, paying over the top for housing units (not standalones) in most places.

And we know that Kainga Ora, instead of building new houses, had been competing in the market to buy existing units.

In doing both of the above, this clueless government feeding the rising property prices. Making a bad situation worse and a crisis into a disaster.

No wonder property speculators, land bankers and building material companies absolutely love the incompetence and incoherence of this government.

Logen Ninefingers
18-10-2021, 08:46 AM
Wow, $1.3 Billion over 4 years. Did NZ suddenly stumble across a huge financial windfall?! I haven't read anything about income tax increasing, or a capital gains tax coming into being - so how are we paying for this? Or are we just going full 'silly season' until the onset of 'The Great Reset'? I get the feeling Robertson and co aren't even pretending any more.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/126705511/climate-change-new-zealand-to-quadruple-climate-cash-for-poor-countries-to-13-billion

Climate change: New Zealand to quadruple climate cash for poor countries to $1.3 billion
Luke Malpass
05:15, Oct 18 2021

The Government has announced that it will be quadrupling the amount of money it spends over the next four years to help poorer countries deal with climate change.

In a significant boost to New Zealand’s global efforts to battle climate change, Stuff can reveal that over the next four years the Government has committed to ploughing $1.3 billion into offshore efforts, part of a global commitment to the developing world of $100b.

New Zealand’s previous commitment was $300 million.

peetter
18-10-2021, 09:14 AM
It is impossible not to feel sorry for her 5 children. What kind of future do they really have when they are in a constant state of flux in education, accommodation and father?

Blame has to be laid squarely on the mother - what was she thinking when she had the last 3 children especially when she knew that the eldest one has special needs?

Then, there're the two dogs!

But the greatest blame is with the welfare system introduced by Clark & Cullen - 'Working for Family' which really should be renamed 'Working against Family'.

The way the system works, it is much better for any couple in her situation to live apart so as a solo parent, she can derive maximum payments and benefits from the welfare system. If they stay as a couple, they start losing out under the abatement system.

Have a look at a schedule of welfare payments depending on how many kids are produced by welfare beneficiaries in the table below :

https://www.ird.govt.nz/-/media/project/ir/home/documents/forms-and-guides/ir200---ir299/ir271-2022/ir271-2021.pdf?modified=20210308210347

As Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore said to John Key once, seems like NZ put in welfare systems without any idea of the outcome.

I'd much rather see free pre-school with meals for beneficiary kids and benefits in form of tax credits on income than current model of paying people for breeding. Also introduce limit on child benefits for up to 3 kids going forward. This would effectively encourage the parents to get work and children would still be fed, giving the children a semblance of a working parent role model.

artemis
18-10-2021, 11:15 AM
Wow, $1.3 Billion over 4 years. Did NZ suddenly stumble across a huge financial windfall?! I haven't read anything about income tax increasing, or a capital gains tax coming into being - so how are we paying for this? Or are we just going full 'silly season' until the onset of 'The Great Reset'? I get the feeling Robertson and co aren't even pretending any more. ....

Meanwhile, in other news - ''Treasury & RBNZ say the government will eventually have to consider raising taxes or cutting expenditure to prepare for the next crisis''

Also meanwhile, but not news yet - the brain drain to Australia ramps up a lot because more pay, plenty of jobs especially for the high skilled net taxpayers and open borders. Tax revenue starts to drop .... New Zealand has been here before.

https://www.interest.co.nz/news/112764/treasury-rbnz-say-government-will-eventually-have-consider-raising-taxes-or-cutting

westerly
18-10-2021, 11:18 AM
As Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore said to John Key once, seems like NZ put in welfare systems without any idea of the outcome.

Great place Singapore. https://www.reuters.com/technology/singapore-trials-patrol-robots-deter-bad-social-behaviour-2021-09-06/
Don,t think it appeals to me.

westerly

BlackPeter
18-10-2021, 11:30 AM
Great place Singapore. https://www.reuters.com/technology/singapore-trials-patrol-robots-deter-bad-social-behaviour-2021-09-06/
Don,t think it appeals to me.

westerly

Sour grapes? I suppose they would not want you anyway ...

peetter
18-10-2021, 11:49 AM
Meanwhile, in other news - ''Treasury & RBNZ say the government will eventually have to consider raising taxes or cutting expenditure to prepare for the next crisis''

Also meanwhile, but not news yet - the brain drain to Australia ramps up a lot because more pay, plenty of jobs especially for the high skilled net taxpayers and open borders. Tax revenue starts to drop .... New Zealand has been here before.

https://www.interest.co.nz/news/112764/treasury-rbnz-say-government-will-eventually-have-consider-raising-taxes-or-cutting

Taxes are raised every year for last 11 years that tax brackets haven't been adjusted to inflation. That means just this year, we're paying 4-5% more taxes than last year. This increase is made even higher by raising minimum wage, which is now almost at the boarder of 30% tax bracket, add $3 and minimum wage workers are taxed at 30%.

Balance
18-10-2021, 11:50 AM
Great place Singapore. https://www.reuters.com/technology/singapore-trials-patrol-robots-deter-bad-social-behaviour-2021-09-06/
Don,t think it appeals to me.

westerly

You will be in jail over there with their zero tolerance policy to crime.

davflaws
18-10-2021, 12:00 PM
This increase is made even higher by raising minimum wage, which is now almost at the boarder of 30% tax bracket, add $3 and minimum wage workers are taxed at 30%.

I'll have a word with Grant - perhaps he can be persuaded to adjust the lower threshold and push the top rate up a bit to compensate.

Getty
18-10-2021, 12:03 PM
I'll have a word with Grant - perhaps he can be persuaded to adjust the lower threshold and push the top rate up a bit to compensate.

I thought you two were a bit close...

fungus pudding
18-10-2021, 12:14 PM
I'll have a word with Grant - perhaps he can be persuaded to adjust the lower threshold and push the top rate up a bit to compensate.

39% will do enough damage without pushing it higher.

dobby41
18-10-2021, 12:37 PM
I'll have a word with Grant - perhaps he can be persuaded to adjust the lower threshold and push the top rate up a bit to compensate.

Pulling a bit more 'income' into the net would make a big difference.
Quite possible to live off tax-free capital gain and pay no tax at all.

fungus pudding
18-10-2021, 12:44 PM
Pulling a bit more 'income' into the net would make a big difference.
Quite possible to live off tax-free capital gain and pay no tax at all.

Rubbish. Try it and you'll see.

peetter
18-10-2021, 01:04 PM
Rubbish. Try it and you'll see.

I agree, nearly impossible as you'd have to live of NZX growth stock. Dividends are taxed, foreign shares too and property is tax free only if you're owner, so whatever you gain in capital while selling would go into new house again. Refinancing wouldn't work as well, because you'd be stopped by servicing.

dobby41
18-10-2021, 01:18 PM
Rubbish. Try it and you'll see.


I agree, nearly impossible as you'd have to live of NZX growth stock. Dividends are taxed, foreign shares too and property is tax free only if you're owner, so whatever you gain in capital while selling would go into new house again. Refinancing wouldn't work as well, because you'd be stopped by servicing.

I was probably a bit loose with the 'no tax at all' as (and I've said this before) there is some residual dividend income - though this is imputed if a NZ share.

FP - why is it impossible? As I've posited before, say you have a share portfolio worth $1mil what's to stop you selling 10% every year for the next 10 years?
No tax on that.
In the meantime, it will grow a bit with capital gain (they were brought to keep but times have changed - do you keep all your shares forever) to extend past 10 years.
IRD doesn't insist that you have enough taxable income to 'live on' - not part of their remit.
You seem to have missed a trick in how the wealthy have a good life but pay little tax.

fungus pudding
18-10-2021, 01:24 PM
I agree, nearly impossible as you'd have to live of NZX growth stock. Dividends are taxed, foreign shares too and property is tax free only if you're owner, so whatever you gain in capital while selling would go into new house again. Refinancing wouldn't work as well, because you'd be stopped by servicing.

Also you have to be living off something. If you are selling shares or assetts as a means of earning to fund necessities - it's income.

Getty
18-10-2021, 01:25 PM
I was probably a bit loose with the notax at all...
You seem to have missed a trick in how the wealthy have a good life but pay little tax.

You seem to have missed a trick, where the wealthy pay a disproportinate amount of tax to the govt, compared to the benefits they get back, compared to any other citizen.

What thanks do they ever get?

fungus pudding
18-10-2021, 01:36 PM
I was probably a bit loose with the 'no tax at all' as (and I've said this before) there is some residual dividend income - though this is imputed if a NZ share.

FP - why is it impossible? As I've posited before, say you have a share portfolio worth $1mil what's to stop you selling 10% every year for the next 10 years?
No tax on that.
In the meantime, it will grow a bit with capital gain (they were brought to keep but times have changed - do you keep all your shares forever) to extend past 10 years.
IRD doesn't insist that you have enough taxable income to 'live on' - not part of their remit.
You seem to have missed a trick in how the wealthy have a good life but pay little tax.

Of course they don't insist on having enough to live on, but if you regularly sell assetts because you have insufficient other funds to live on - you are liable for income tax.
If you do as you suggest, i.e. sell off 10% of shares annually to provide your living - that's your income - and income is taxed. Argue it out with the taxman if you don't believe me.

dobby41
18-10-2021, 01:56 PM
Of course they don't insist on having enough to live on, but if you regularly sell assetts because you have insufficient other funds to live on - you are liable for income tax.
If you do as you suggest, i.e. sell off 10% of shares annually to provide your living - that's your income - and income is taxed. Argue it out with the taxman if you don't believe me.

Show me the Tax rule that says that.
It doesn't exist - there is no capital gains tax.
Converting Capital Gains into spending money doesn't suddenly make it taxable income - it is still just converting capital.

I agree with you in a logical sense but that isn't how the tax laws are written.

dobby41
18-10-2021, 01:57 PM
You seem to have missed a trick, where the wealthy pay a disproportinate amount of tax to the govt, compared to the benefits they get back, compared to any other citizen.

What thanks do they ever get?

Haven't missed it - it is what it is and nothing I can do about it so I don't dwell on it.
No one has thanked me for the tax I pay but such is life.

peetter
18-10-2021, 02:19 PM
You seem to have missed a trick in how the wealthy have a good life but pay little tax.

You mean how top 3% earners pay the same amount of tax as bottom 71% in NZ based on statistics from 2019/2020 tax year?

Getty
18-10-2021, 02:42 PM
You mean how top 3% earners pay the same amount of tax as bottom 71% in NZ based on statistics from 2019/2020 tax year?

And when they get a $35000+ medical operation, more likely to be paid for by the medical insurance they pay into, not the taxpayer.

Oh, and all those Oranga Tamariki interventions, placements, is that the rich end of town?.

Legal Aid, Courts, imprisonments, the list goes on and on.

The Gst on a $15 pizza 3X the $5 one from another chain, oh oops, I've got that wrong, which demographic floods the KFC stores?

Ah, the wonders of a socialist society eh?

peetter
18-10-2021, 02:42 PM
FP - why is it impossible? As I've posited before, say you have a share portfolio worth $1mil what's to stop you selling 10% every year for the next 10 years?
No tax on that.
In the meantime, it will grow a bit with capital gain (they were brought to keep but times have changed - do you keep all your shares forever) to extend past 10 years.


Because no-one in their right mind will bet their life only on NZX growth stocks. People who actually live of investments will have a diverse portfolio containing mostly of low risk, high dividend geared stock. On top of that, most people will also own foreign shares to diversify.