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fungus pudding
18-10-2021, 03:10 PM
Show me the Tax rule that says that.
It doesn't exist - there is no capital gains tax.
Converting Capital Gains into spending money doesn't suddenly make it taxable income - it is still just converting capital.

I agree with you in a logical sense but that isn't how the tax laws are written.

There is no CGT as such, and therefore no CGT rate, but traders are taxed at their marginal rates on capital gained (aka profit). Converting capital gains into spending money can certainly make for a tax bill. Traders are viewed differently than investors, and regular transactions are more likely to be viewed as trading actvity rather than investing. It all goes back to the original intention - and Mr. Taxman may have his own opinion on that, not necessarily agreeing with yours. There's a lot of grey in the taxman's bible - but you are wrong if you think you can just lie back and live off untaxed capital gains. Not that it matters - cos you can live pretty well off investments, paying tax on dividends, rents, and other investment income, avoiding the need to sell. In fact the fungus rule of survival is ACCUMULATE. Don't trade - don't sell - just keep stacking up income. COLLECT.

winner69
18-10-2021, 03:20 PM
Inflation not seen since 1987

Just as well we have Grant in charge …he’ll fix it

Getty
18-10-2021, 03:23 PM
Inflation not seen since 1987

Just as well we have Grant in charge …he’ll fix it

Hope we dont hear a crashing sound we haven't had since 1987.

Grant may have trouble fixing that.

fungus pudding
18-10-2021, 03:32 PM
Inflation not seen since 1987


Certainly has been around this neck of the woods. Get yourself along to Specsavers!

Logen Ninefingers
18-10-2021, 03:42 PM
Sounds like it's lucky the child didn't die; a clear case of child neglect and abuse, yet weakly the charge is 'criminal nuisance'. More 'Woke' policing under this Labour outfit.

So who is responsible for this shocking case? I hope you've been conditioned as I have to blame 'Oranga Tamariki', which seems to be the whipping boy on which abuse is to be heaped. 'Oranga Tamariki' are 'failing us', that's what the media and Kelvin Davis are telling me. We certainly cannot blame the actual perpetrators and their whanau.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/126711681/toddler-who-chewed-on-meth-packet-barely-slept-or-ate-had-no-medical-care-for-two-days

Toddler who chewed on meth packet barely slept or ate, had no medical care for two days
David Clarkson
14:31, Oct 18 2021

A woman who found her 11-month-old son chewing on a bag that had held methamphetamine did not seek medical attention for more than two days despite the toddler being distressed and barely sleeping or eating.

The child was taken to hospital only after a phone call from the woman to an associate in prison, in which she recounted the boy’s symptoms, was intercepted. Oranga Tamariki staff then went to her home to check on the child’s welfare. Toxicology testing later confirmed the presence of methamphetamine and amphetamine in the boy’s bloodstream.

The 30-year-old woman was initially charged with ill-treatment of a child by not getting her 11-month-old son medical attention, and later leaving her seven-year-old son without reasonable supervision and care. In the Christchurch District Court on Monday she pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of causing a criminal nuisance.

artemis
18-10-2021, 05:15 PM
Reckon IRD treating someone as a trader could depend on age of the asset owner and their intention when accumulating the assets. So a retired owner starting to supplement the pension by slowly selling down assets accumulated over many years, popping the proceeds in the bank (and paying RWT on the meagre interest) should not raise a red flag at IRD. Should not, but could I guess.

Common enough for financial advisers to advise liquidate 4% or so a year. Maybe if there are any posting here they could tell us what the tax advice is for that scenario.

Panda-NZ-
18-10-2021, 05:21 PM
Ah, the wonders of a socialist society eh?

Vietnam and china place hard limits on the number of kids.

Christians often don't even believe in birth control, catholic bill english for an example (6 kids )

Panda-NZ-
18-10-2021, 05:23 PM
There is no CGT as such, and therefore no CGT rate, but traders are taxed at their marginal rates on capital gained (aka profit). Converting capital gains into spending money can certainly make for a tax bill. Traders are viewed differently than investors, and regular transactions are more likely to be viewed as trading actvity rather than investing. It all goes back to the original intention - and Mr. Taxman may have his own opinion on that, not necessarily agreeing with yours. There's a lot of grey in the taxman's bible - but you are wrong if you think you can just lie back and live off untaxed capital gains. Not that it matters - cos you can live pretty well off investments, paying tax on dividends, rents, and other investment income, avoiding the need to sell. In fact the fungus rule of survival is ACCUMULATE. Don't trade - don't sell - just keep stacking up income. COLLECT.

The CGT would simplify the tax system... instead of all this predicting what the IRD will do, there could be a simple flat rate of 10 or 15%.

Many right wing people should be in favour.

dobby41
18-10-2021, 05:36 PM
The CGT would simplify the tax system... instead of all this predicting what the IRD will do, there could be a simple flat rate of 10 or 15%.

Many right wing people should be in favour.

You have my vote and I stand to lose if it was introduced.
The devil is in the detail of course.

Getty
18-10-2021, 05:49 PM
Vietnam and china place hard limits on the number of kids.

Christians often don't even believe in birth control, catholic bill english for an example (6 kids )

um, er, I'm not sure who you are pandering to Panda, with that deduction from my post.

I can only assume you mean that English Catholics, and in particular Bill English & his wife, bring up their kids better than many, and are less inclined to send the bill to the taxpayer?

Panda-NZ-
18-10-2021, 05:55 PM
um, er, I'm not sure who you are pandering to Panda, with that deduction from my post.

I can only assume you mean that English Catholics, and in particular Bill English & his wife, bring up their kids better than many, and are less inclined to send the bill to the taxpayer?

They still consume resources and despoil the environment.

These 6 kids will be wanting their OE soon, travelling the world in a passenger jet.

fungus pudding
18-10-2021, 05:56 PM
Reckon IRD treating someone as a trader could depend on age of the asset owner and their intention when accumulating the assets. So a retired owner starting to supplement the pension by slowly selling down assets accumulated over many years, popping the proceeds in the bank (and paying RWT on the meagre interest) should not raise a red flag at IRD. Should not, but could I guess.

Common enough for financial advisers to advise liquidate 4% or so a year. Maybe if there are any posting here they could tell us what the tax advice is for that scenario.

I'm not sure that advice is common. Would surprise me.

Getty
18-10-2021, 05:59 PM
They still consume resources and despoil the environment.

These 6 kids will be wanting their OE soon, travelling the world in a passenger jet.

Pardon them for living.

They should have been born into a poor house?

Logen Ninefingers
18-10-2021, 06:08 PM
Big story in Stuff today about how humans are destroying the planet and making all other species extinct, and it can all be solved by NZ becoming a beacon of green-socialism. In reality it will occur immediately to most people in NZ that we are pretty powerless to change the trajectory of destruction and pollution in nations like Brazil and China. Articles like this will do wonders for our suicide rates I should imagine, particularly among the young: to never-ending COVID anxiety you can add utter despair at the older generations having pulled up the ladder on affordable housing, plus constant messaging that humans are destructive and awful killers of other species & the planet in general.

peetter
18-10-2021, 06:18 PM
Big story in Stuff today about how humans are destroying the planet and making all other species extinct, and it can all be solved by NZ becoming a beacon of green-socialism. In reality it will occur immediately to most people in NZ that we are pretty powerless to change the trajectory of destruction and pollution in nations like Brazil and China. Articles like this will do wonders for our suicide rates I should imagine, particularly among the young: to never-ending COVID anxiety you can add utter despair at the older generations having pulled up the ladder on affordable housing, plus constant messaging that humans are destructive and awful killers of other species & the planet in general.

Ever repeating doom and gloom of global warming. I remember when I was in school I was told by now the polar ice caps would be pretty much melted. What did the sea level rose in 20 years? 1cm? I used to believe it.

Panda-NZ-
18-10-2021, 06:18 PM
Pardon them for living.

They should have been born into a poor house?

When you're in paradise why would you want to leave. they're not being patriotic.

I try to cycle to work when I can.

Panda-NZ-
18-10-2021, 06:20 PM
Ever repeating doom and gloom of global warming. I remember when I was in school I was told by now the polar ice caps would be pretty much melted. What did the sea level rose in 20 years? 1cm? I used to believe it.

We are undoubtedly killing other species (why might that be?)

We're not so different from them I think.

Getty
18-10-2021, 06:25 PM
When you're in paradise why would you want to leave. they're not being patriotic.

I try to cycle to work when I can.

Good on you for introducing patriotic to the conversation.

I ask where is the Patriotism of those who have been slow to get, or resisting getting the FREE covid jab?

Holding NZ's economy to ransom, and inflicting unnecessary debt on future generations.

Shame on them!

BDL
18-10-2021, 06:28 PM
Ever repeating doom and gloom of global warming. I remember when I was in school I was told by now the polar ice caps would be pretty much melted. What did the sea level rose in 20 years? 1cm? I used to believe it.

Maybe you should go back to school and learn the science behind it properly.
Humans have, and still are, damaging our environment at an alarming rate. Easily our collective and biggest threat.

Panda-NZ-
18-10-2021, 06:28 PM
I ask where is the Patriotism of those who have been slow to get, or resisting getting the FREE covid jab?

Agreed.

12 months of ads on every platform should have been enough 'warning'.

BDL
18-10-2021, 06:35 PM
Good on you for introducing patriotic to the conversation.

I ask where is the Patriotism of those who have been slow to get, or resisting getting the FREE covid jab?

Holding NZ's economy to ransom, and inflicting unnecessary debt on future generations.

Shame on them!

True. 20% holding 80% to ransom. Jacinda "be kind", yea right. Let people come home to family from overseas. This is getting crazy now, we have plenty of vaccines.

Balance
18-10-2021, 06:40 PM
Ever repeating doom and gloom of global warming. I remember when I was in school I was told by now the polar ice caps would be pretty much melted. What did the sea level rose in 20 years? 1cm? I used to believe it.

And I was taught during the 70s that the world had reached maximum population capacity - that there would be horrendous food shortage, famine and carnage if the world overpopulated beyond what was sustainable.

World population in 1970 was $3.7 billion - today it's 7.87 billion, 112% increase in 41 years!

Now we are warned about climate change.

Big difference between the two warnings is that if we are wrong, there is only one Earth and if it's buggered, we are all stuffed.

Balance
18-10-2021, 06:41 PM
True. 20% holding 80% to ransom. Jacinda "be kind", yea right. Let people come home to family from overseas. This is getting crazy now, we have plenty of vaccines.


COVID for Christmas - That was Cindy's threat via Grant Robertson & Chris Hipkins 2 weeks ago and they are delivering (for a change!).

peetter
18-10-2021, 06:43 PM
Maybe you should go back to school and learn the science behind it properly.
Humans have, and still are, damaging our environment at an alarming rate. Easily our collective and biggest threat.

I'm not disputing humans have damaging effect. I am disputing failed science of global warming, rebranded as climate change. I see climate change as something that happens in cycles on Earth and we as humans have next to no effect to it. No amount of marketing and billions of $$ in climate change economy will change that. That's all it was 20 years ago and it's all it is now. Money grab. Do you really think electric cars are here to save the planet? By mining lithium, destroying landscape, polluting water, so you can replace battery every 7 years? If you wanted to be environmentaly friendly, you'd abolish consumerism.

Logen Ninefingers
18-10-2021, 06:46 PM
We are undoubtedly killing other species (why might that be?)

We're not so different from them I think.

Yes, killing other species is not confined to the current group of humans. I heard that the Dodo got wiped out. Those wonderful custodians the Maori managed to hunt down and kill every last Moa - which put paid to the Haast's Eagle as well. Basically 2 birds with 1 stone adze.

Humans were set to wipe out Whales at one point, but they've made a remarkable recovery.

BDL
18-10-2021, 06:48 PM
I'm not disputing humans have damaging effect. I am disputing failed science of global warming, rebranded as climate change. I see climate change as something that happens in cycles on Earth and we as humans have next to no effect to it. No amount of marketing and billions of $$ in climate change economy will change that. That's all it was 20 years ago and it's all it is now. Money grab. Do you really think electric cars are here to save the planet? By mining lithium, destroying landscape, polluting water, so you can replace battery every 7 years? If you wanted to be environmentaly friendly, you'd abolish consumerism.

like I said, "go back to school...." All of what you just said has long been discredited. Our leaders and media have let us all down on climate change, blaming the science is long past....

peetter
18-10-2021, 06:51 PM
like I said, "go back to school...." All of what you just said has long been discredited. Our leaders and media have let us all down on climate change, blaming the science is long past....

What was disputed? That mining lithium destroys environment and polutes water? That Global warming was one big hoax to attract funding? That consumerism is the problem? That sea level did nothing in 20 years?

BDL
18-10-2021, 06:52 PM
500k people holding back the rest of NZ. Boy we are a docile bunch, and this government uses that against us.

BDL
18-10-2021, 06:53 PM
What was disputed? That mining lithium destroys environment and polutes water? That Global warming was one big hoax to attract funding? That consumerism is the problem? That sea level did nothing in 20 years?

I give up, this is heading nowhere.....

Getty
18-10-2021, 07:18 PM
Good on you for introducing patriotic to the conversation.

I ask where is the Patriotism of those who have been slow to get, or resisting getting the FREE covid jab?

Holding NZ's economy to ransom, and inflicting unnecessary debt on future generations.

Shame on them!

Now, are we going to have special Iwi forum groups, and continual begging and negotiation, extra enticement to get the vax resisters onto their benefit payments and pensions?

Or, will they suddenly be no longer "hard to reach"?

Come on Jacinda, enough weasel words and double standards, Hit them with a big stick!

NZ expects!!

Balance
18-10-2021, 07:26 PM
Now, are we going to have special Iwi forum groups, and continual begging and negotiation, extra enticement to get the vax resisters onto their benefit payments and pensions?

Or, will they suddenly be no longer "hard to reach"?

Come on Jacinda, enough weasel words and double standards, Hit them with a big stick!

Gutless & Clueless Cindy - allowing Maori groups to hold the whole of NZ to hostage.

People are suffering and there are many who are going to have health complications and die in the years ahead due to delayed, cancelled and missed treatment.

Close to 1,000 surgeries have been cancelled a week due to the lockdown :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-1000-surgeries-cancelled-every-week/UWGKLTITX5AW77V4XQMIZLYWO4/

Close to a thousand planned surgeries are being cancelled every week in New Zealand with nearly a quarter of those being at Middlemore Hospital, data shows.

The figures, received by National Party' health spokesman Shane Reti from all district health boards, showed that between August 15 and September 26, a total of 84,991 planned operations had been deferred.

Of those, 25,316 were from South Auckland's Counties Manukau DHB.

peetter
18-10-2021, 07:28 PM
Gutless & Clueless Cindy - allowing Maori groups to hold the whole of NZ to hostage.

People are suffering and there are many who are going to have health complications and die in the years ahead due to delayed, cancelled and missed treatment.

Close to 1,000 surgeries have been cancelled a week due to the lockdown :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-1000-surgeries-cancelled-every-week/UWGKLTITX5AW77V4XQMIZLYWO4/

Close to a thousand planned surgeries are being cancelled every week in New Zealand with nearly a quarter of those being at Middlemore Hospital, data shows.

The figures, received by National Party' health spokesman Shane Reti from all district health boards, showed that between August 15 and September 26, a total of 84,991 planned operations had been deferred.

Of those, 25,316 were from South Auckland's Counties Manukau DHB.

And meanwhile all you need to get them to show up is $100 prezzy card and KFC lunch. You'd have 90% in fortnight.

Balance
18-10-2021, 08:10 PM
And meanwhile all you need to get them to show up is $100 prezzy card and KFC lunch. You'd have 90% in fortnight.

What happens when a government plays the race card and pander to the most basic lowest denominator of NZ society.

iceman
19-10-2021, 07:56 AM
They still consume resources and despoil the environment.

These 6 kids will be wanting their OE soon, travelling the world in a passenger jet.

But don't worry. James Shaw and several thousand of Ministers and bureaucrats are flying to Scotland to save the World, many of them coming straight from Iceland where they attended the Artic Council https://arctic-council.org/events/arctic-circle-assembly/ , including in approximately 30-40 private jets.

BlackPeter
19-10-2021, 08:43 AM
Big story in Stuff today about how humans are destroying the planet and making all other species extinct, and it can all be solved by NZ becoming a beacon of green-socialism. In reality it will occur immediately to most people in NZ that we are pretty powerless to change the trajectory of destruction and pollution in nations like Brazil and China. Articles like this will do wonders for our suicide rates I should imagine, particularly among the young: to never-ending COVID anxiety you can add utter despair at the older generations having pulled up the ladder on affordable housing, plus constant messaging that humans are destructive and awful killers of other species & the planet in general.

Even if you repeat this selfish nonsense endlessly - it does make it neither right nor sensible and certainly not decent.

Any single Kiwi has the same power and responsibility to improve the lot of our planet than any single Chinese, Brazilian, European or US American.

The only way to repair the planet is if we all do our lot instead of all of us pointing to the others and require them to do something.

Given that we produce per head of population more rubbish than most other nations (yes, I know, the Canadians, the Bulgarians, the US Americans and a handful others are still more wasteful ), given that we consume (per capita) more fossile fuel than most other countries and given that we are comparably quite well off (top ten percent of rich countries per capita) - why not go ahead instead of waiting for the poor nations to go ahead and give a good example?

dobby41
19-10-2021, 09:18 AM
What happens when a government plays the race card and pander to the most basic lowest denominator of NZ society.

Must have played the race card around the world?
Cause and effect?
In Washington State some places are offering a free toke with a jab.
Free beer in some.
Race - maybe not, some people are just hard to reach (and selfish).
There will be some who will hold out in case an even better deal comes along.

Balance
19-10-2021, 09:59 AM
Must have played the race card around the world?
Cause and effect?
In Washington State some places are offering a free toke with a jab.
Free beer in some.
Race - maybe not, some people are just hard to reach (and selfish).
There will be some who will hold out in case an even better deal comes along.

In NZ, it's obvious that Clueless Cindy is pandering to the Maoris for votes - not for the greater good of Maori & definitely not for the good of NZ as a country.

dobby41
19-10-2021, 10:50 AM
In NZ, it's obvious that Clueless Cindy is pandering to the Maoris for votes - not for the greater good of Maori & definitely not for the good of NZ as a country.

Whenever anyone says 'it's obvious' or 'obviously' you know they are telling a story rather than dealing in facts.
You are great with the spin.

Balance
19-10-2021, 11:03 AM
Whenever anyone says 'it's obvious' or 'obviously' you know they are telling a story rather than dealing in facts.
You are great with the spin.

Coming from an indoctrinated devotee of mistress of spin Cindy, I will treat that as a compliment. :D

Bill Smith
19-10-2021, 11:05 AM
Whenever anyone says 'it's obvious' or 'obviously' you know they are telling a story rather than dealing in facts.
You are great with the spin.

And what does it mean when someone keeps saying jeopradise?

Getty
19-10-2021, 11:28 AM
Has everyone noticed that when Jacinda & Poto start their statements with; "I want to be very clear about this", it is a precursor to more obfuscation than North Korean peace talks?

Also, J's eye's project that false smile for the first 20 seconds, then quickly darken to "pooh, who farted"?, a la Helen Clark!

Logen Ninefingers
19-10-2021, 12:40 PM
Even if you repeat this selfish nonsense endlessly - it does make it neither right nor sensible and certainly not decent.

Any single Kiwi has the same power and responsibility to improve the lot of our planet than any single Chinese, Brazilian, European or US American.

The only way to repair the planet is if we all do our lot instead of all of us pointing to the others and require them to do something.

Given that we produce per head of population more rubbish than most other nations (yes, I know, the Canadians, the Bulgarians, the US Americans and a handful others are still more wasteful ), given that we consume (per capita) more fossile fuel than most other countries and given that we are comparably quite well off (top ten percent of rich countries per capita) - why not go ahead instead of waiting for the poor nations to go ahead and give a good example?

China is a poor nation? First I've heard of it. They can - and will - continue to increase their omissions until 2030. 9 years of cooking the plant with the oven being turned up year on year, while your intense focus will be on turning 5 million NZers into a beacon of green socialism. Are you truly worried about the future of the planet or not?? You should be out of your mind over what is happening in the big polluting nations - that is where the battle is being lost and will continue to be lost. But no - you are like Napoleon being worried about winning a small skirmish between a handful of troops - it's neither here nor there, meanwhile Waterloo continues towards its inevitable conclusion. You are more concerned about pointless NZ virtual signalling than actually ensuring the survivability of the planet. Who cares if the bumper on your car has just been washed when the whole vehicle is going over the cliff?

Logen Ninefingers
19-10-2021, 12:43 PM
China is a poor nation? First I've heard of it. They can - and will - continue to increase their omissions until 2030. 9 years of cooking the plant with the oven being turned up year on year, while your intense focus will be on turning 5 million NZers into a beacon of green socialism. Are you truly worried about the future of the planet or not?? You should be out of your mind over what is happening in the big polluting nations - that is where the battle is being lost and will continue to be lost. But no - you are like Napoleon being worried about winning a small skirmish between a handful of troops - it's neither here nor there, meanwhile Waterloo continues towards its inevitable conclusion. You are more concerned about pointless NZ virtual signalling than actually ensuring the survivability of the planet. Who cares if the bumper on your car has just been washed when the whole vehicle is going over the cliff?

Any single Kiwi has the same power

If 5 million Kiwi's eat plant protein and vote for Jacinda and James, that will ensure the planet doesn't cook? Ridiculous.

Panda-NZ-
19-10-2021, 12:49 PM
Green credentials pay the bills - 100% pure new zealand.

We don't need to ruin our brand.

fungus pudding
19-10-2021, 01:18 PM
Green credentials pay the bills -



Prostitution and drugs can do that too.

dobby41
19-10-2021, 01:25 PM
Prostitution and drugs can do that too.

I don't think it will pay the country's bills though. :scared:

peetter
19-10-2021, 01:44 PM
Any single Kiwi has the same power

If 5 million Kiwi's eat plant protein and vote for Jacinda and James, that will ensure the planet doesn't cook? Ridiculous.

What an awfull looking prospect. No steak.

Panda-NZ-
19-10-2021, 02:14 PM
Prostitution and drugs can do that too.

NZers said no to decriminalising cannibas so no industry there.

fungus pudding
19-10-2021, 02:16 PM
NZers said no to decriminalising cannibas so no industry there.

Yes there is.

Panda-NZ-
19-10-2021, 02:21 PM
The gangs will sadly take on the recreational side.

NZ:

Votes against decriminalisation
Then complains about gangs.

dobby41
19-10-2021, 02:21 PM
NZers said no to decriminalising cannibas so no industry there.

Cannabis
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300273108/new-zealands-largest-medicinal-cannabis-farm-begins-harvest
https://puro.co.nz/

BlackPeter
19-10-2021, 02:23 PM
China is a poor nation? First I've heard of it. They can - and will - continue to increase their omissions until 2030. 9 years of cooking the plant with the oven being turned up year on year, while your intense focus will be on turning 5 million NZers into a beacon of green socialism. Are you truly worried about the future of the planet or not?? You should be out of your mind over what is happening in the big polluting nations - that is where the battle is being lost and will continue to be lost. But no - you are like Napoleon being worried about winning a small skirmish between a handful of troops - it's neither here nor there, meanwhile Waterloo continues towards its inevitable conclusion. You are more concerned about pointless NZ virtual signalling than actually ensuring the survivability of the planet. Who cares if the bumper on your car has just been washed when the whole vehicle is going over the cliff?


Any single Kiwi has the same power

If 5 million Kiwi's eat plant protein and vote for Jacinda and James, that will ensure the planet doesn't cook? Ridiculous.

While your posts are full of arrogance, finger pointing and denial you are amazingly bad informed ...

https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/

Chinas GPD per capita is 98% of the world average - i.e. they sit still a bit lower (per capita) than the average of all people on this globe and they are sitting between the Iraq (99%) and Brazil (91%).

So yes, China does have a lot of people, but the average Chinese person lives still more like anybody else in a developing country.

Just to compare - New Zealand's GDP per capita is 238% of the world average ... i.e. yes, we do have more wealth.

United States sits at 350%;

Of course has any single Kiwi the same power as any single Chinese or any single Brazilian to heal the planet - though, if money is involved, we even have roughly 2.5 times the power per person (if you use the numbers mentioned above) than the Chinese or the Brazilians.

Maybe you should put less effort into finger pointing and denial and instead put more effort into something positive like saving the planet :); Every little bit counts ...

Logen Ninefingers
19-10-2021, 02:27 PM
I'd like to see a truly independent report on the alleged 'underfunding'.

I'd also like to know whether the claimants are seeking a multi billion dollar payment from NZ taxpayers, as it is not made clear excatly what is being sought by the claimants. Is it more funding in future, or another huge sum of money to put in the tribal coffers?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/126712195/waitangi-tribunal-lack-of-action-on-mori-health-underfunding-as-health-gaps-grow

Waitangi Tribunal: Lack of action on Māori health underfunding as health gaps grow
Bridie Witton
05:00, Oct 19 2021

The health gap between Māori and non-Māori continues to grow while Waitangi Tribunal claimants wait for the Crown to agree on a way to measure decades-worth of underfunding in Māori health.

The Waitangi Tribunal has released its final recommendations from its stage one of the Health Services and Outcomes Kaupapa Inquiry. Its first recommendations, released in 2019, included a call for the Crown and claimants to agree on a way to assess how much Māori primary health providers had been underfunded.

“After more than two years we are disappointed that no agreement has yet been reached and especially disappointed that this is largely due to the Crown not engaging with the claimants on this issue,” presiding officer Judge Damian Stone​ (Ngāti Kahungunu) wrote in its final report released on Tuesday.

The claimants commissioned their own independent report by Sapere which found Māori healthcare was massively underfunded by up to $531 million since 2003. It found $1 billion in extra investment a year would save the country $5b annually in health-related costs.

The inquiry also found multiple Treaty breaches and little improvement in Māori health outcomes despite the Crown investing some $220 billion into the health system since 2000.

Logen Ninefingers
19-10-2021, 02:34 PM
While your posts are full of arrogance, finger pointing and denial you are amazingly bad informed ...

https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/

Chinas GPD per capita is 98% of the world average - i.e. they sit still a bit lower (per capita) than the average of all people on this globe and they are sitting between the Iraq (99%) and Brazil (91%).

So yes, China does have a lot of people, but the average Chinese person lives still more like anybody else in a developing country.

Just to compare - New Zealand's GDP per capita is 238% of the world average ... i.e. yes, we do have more wealth.

United States sits at 350%;

Of course has any single Kiwi the same power as any single Chinese or any single Brazilian to heal the planet - though, if money is involved, we even have roughly 2.5 times the power per person (if you use the numbers mentioned above) than the Chinese or the Brazilians.

Maybe you should put less effort into finger pointing and denial and instead put more effort into something positive like saving the planet :); Every little bit counts ...

You are dreaming, we are not going to 'heal the planet' through our actions here in NZ. It is not about 'finger pointing', it is about simply stating facts - China and India will be increasing their emissions every year for the next 9 years - even as climate scientists have warned that we have reached a tipping point. So that's it: game over. And your reaction is smiley faces, laughable attempts to chastise me, and daft suggestions that somehow what we do here in NZ is going to make all the difference. New Zealand's emissions contribute approximately 0.17 per cent of the world's emissions.....it's not even a rounding error. You are just not a realist...you don't look at the facts and reach the correct conclusions. Instead you are living in a happy clappy fantasy land of your own creation.

Balance
19-10-2021, 02:52 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-nzs-grim-new-record-94-cases-seven-in-waikato-pm-blasts-level-3-rule-breakers/MK4XLUYN6D7A3UHMCUB6JVPBLM/

Tsk tsk - Cindy pointing the finger at rule breakers for causing the sharp spike in COVID cases today.

Whatever happened to ‘ people are not the problem. People are the solution to the problem.’?

When the chips are down, a real leader takes responsibility & takes charge. Cindy has shown herself to be no real leader but a spin merchant.

COVID for Christmas - her gift to NZers this year.

Not hard & short, but soft & long - that’s Cindy’s lockdown.

artemis
19-10-2021, 02:59 PM
NZers said no to decriminalising cannibas so no industry there.

Really? Do you live under a rock?

dobby41
19-10-2021, 03:06 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-nzs-grim-new-record-94-cases-seven-in-waikato-pm-blasts-level-3-rule-breakers/MK4XLUYN6D7A3UHMCUB6JVPBLM/

Tsk tsk - Cindy pointing the finger at rule breakers for causing the sharp spike in COVID cases today.

Whatever happened to ‘ people are not the problem. People are the solution to the problem.’?

When the chips are down, a real leader takes responsibility & takes charge. Cindy has shown herself to be no real leader but a spin merchant.

COVID for Christmas - her gift to NZers this year.

Not hard & short, but soft & long - that’s Cindy’s lockdown.

People aren't the problem when they follow the rules - when they don't they are definitely the problem.
Context is a problem for you.

It is hard - that's why people are moaning.
Now long because people just can't help themselves - they have to congregate indoors and spread it.

Logen Ninefingers
19-10-2021, 03:17 PM
People aren't the problem when they follow the rules - when they don't they are definitely the problem.
Context is a problem for you.

It is hard - that's why people are moaning.
Now long because people just can't help themselves - they have to congregate indoors and spread it.

What part of his post did you have an issue with? This government could have kept going 'hard' with Level 4 in Auckland for at least a couple more weeks ...instead they took the foot off the gas to arrest a decline in the polls and Delta said thanks very much. Cindy is ruled by the polls and what her army of spin doctors tell her, and we are all paying the price for it. 'Woke' policing and lax enforcement haven't helped - sex workers and gang bosses seem to do pretty much as they please, often with a free pass (exemption) to do so. Meanwhile ordinary citizens have to abide by the rules. Much easier for Cindy to blame shadowy and nebulous 'rule breakers' than to take any blame herself. Has she ever admitted fault ever? I was reading just yesterday that it is a hallmark of authoritarian regimes that they never own up to any errors, ever. Says a lot about Cindy's instincts.

Logen Ninefingers
19-10-2021, 03:51 PM
While your posts are full of arrogance, finger pointing and denial you are amazingly bad informed ...

https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/

Chinas GPD per capita is 98% of the world average - i.e. they sit still a bit lower (per capita) than the average of all people on this globe and they are sitting between the Iraq (99%) and Brazil (91%).

So yes, China does have a lot of people, but the average Chinese person lives still more like anybody else in a developing country.

Just to compare - New Zealand's GDP per capita is 238% of the world average ... i.e. yes, we do have more wealth.

United States sits at 350%;

Of course has any single Kiwi the same power as any single Chinese or any single Brazilian to heal the planet - though, if money is involved, we even have roughly 2.5 times the power per person (if you use the numbers mentioned above) than the Chinese or the Brazilians.

Maybe you should put less effort into finger pointing and denial and instead put more effort into something positive like saving the planet :); Every little bit counts ...

The person who is arrogant is IMO you. Instead of being a realist you'd rather badger Kiwi's into adopting your viewpoint, and if people don't agree with you you call them selfish. The endless crusade of the Left is to make an unfair world 'fair' - according to their own definition of fair, and moreover to make us all Left-thinking clones of each other.

moka
19-10-2021, 08:11 PM
Great to see Labour and National working together on legislation to overcome the housing crisis.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300433304/labour-national-announce-sweeping-housing-density-law-threestorey-homes-without-consent
(https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300433304/labour-national-announce-sweeping-housing-density-law-threestorey-homes-without-consent)
Labour, National announce sweeping housing density law, three-storey homes without consent.
Environment Minister David Parker and Housing Minister Megan Woods are making the announcement alongside National leader Judith Collins and housing spokeswoman Nicola Willis in a rare show of bipartisanship.
“Working with National on these changes delivers stable enduring policy on urban density. This gives homeowners, councils, developers and investors certainty about enduring planning rules,” Woods said.

Collins said adversarial politics should be put aside in case of an emergency – and housing had become an emergency.
National has been pushing the Government to move faster to loosen planning laws and allow more housing to be built as prices have spiralled upwards.
Willis wrote to the Government earlier this year to offer bipartisan support for more drastic measures.
Parker and Woods wrote back to Willis in late-June and work has been ongoing since then.

TeslaGod
19-10-2021, 09:24 PM
Great to see Labour and National working together on legislation to overcome the housing crisis.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300433304/labour-national-announce-sweeping-housing-density-law-threestorey-homes-without-consent
(https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300433304/labour-national-announce-sweeping-housing-density-law-threestorey-homes-without-consent)
Labour, National announce sweeping housing density law, three-storey homes without consent.
Environment Minister David Parker and Housing Minister Megan Woods are making the announcement alongside National leader Judith Collins and housing spokeswoman Nicola Willis in a rare show of bipartisanship.
“Working with National on these changes delivers stable enduring policy on urban density. This gives homeowners, councils, developers and investors certainty about enduring planning rules,” Woods said.

Collins said adversarial politics should be put aside in case of an emergency – and housing had become an emergency.
National has been pushing the Government to move faster to loosen planning laws and allow more housing to be built as prices have spiralled upwards.
Willis wrote to the Government earlier this year to offer bipartisan support for more drastic measures.
Parker and Woods wrote back to Willis in late-June and work has been ongoing since then.

There you go with uneducated posts

You honestly think this is going to fix the problems?

You are seriously uneducated

We are at compacity, we have NO MORE BUILDERS

It's already a 3 year wait in Wellington for a builder.

This is just going to drive land prices up.

There's going to be a land grab over the next few years, who's going to build the house's dumb arse.. you?

TeslaGod
19-10-2021, 09:27 PM
I've never come across such a bunch of numbskulls on a forum, an investor forum at that who don't understand the very basics of economics.

Logen Ninefingers
19-10-2021, 09:49 PM
I've never come across such a bunch of numbskulls on a forum, an investor forum at that who don't understand the very basics of economics.

I think I understand how it all plays out according to MuskRat.

Inflation goes up, MuskRat wins.

Interest rates go up, MuskRat wins.

There is a massive crash, MuskRat wins.

MuskRat always wins, but then again MuskRat is a legend in MuskRats own mind.

TeslaGod
19-10-2021, 09:54 PM
This is for dummies like Moka and Logan sticky Ninefingers who don't understand the housing market, are not invested in it.

When politicians come out with tripe like today, the sheep always fall for it.

-We don't have the construction industry to catch up

-This doesn't help infrastructure, schools,road's, waste water, everything else but subdivision cost.

-We need to import labour to build more houses, this will simply drive up housing and rents

-Ireland managed to have an oversupply because they were able to import traveling construction companies across the EU visa free

-If we even came close to catching up to housing stock this would happen:

Banks would stop lending to construction to protect there capital

The government of the day would most likely protect house prices by opening the immigration flood gates

The RBNZ would step in to protect the housing market, because New Zealand's economy is the housing market.

artemis
20-10-2021, 05:44 AM
This is for dummies like Moka and Logan sticky Ninefingers who don't understand the housing market, are not invested in it....

Everything you said. But while there might be more new builds coming let us not forget the many changes this government has made to the rental market. The changes are seriously and significantly discouraging housing or keeping even slightly risky tenants. They are not top of the list for existing rentals let alone brand new. That is a housing crisis, and the taxpayer is the solution. Sorry taxpayers.

Bjauck
20-10-2021, 07:40 AM
Wow, $1.3 Billion over 4 years. Did NZ suddenly stumble across a huge financial windfall?! I haven't read anything about income tax increasing, or a capital gains tax coming into being - so how are we paying for this? Or are we just going full 'silly season' until the onset of 'The Great Reset'? I get the feeling Robertson and co aren't even pretending any more. ... Income Tax top rate has just increased to 38%, bracket creep, Depreciation rules made tougher, bright line extended, inflation increasing. However Ardern did rule out a general CGT.

Bjauck
20-10-2021, 08:01 AM
Everything you said. But while there might be more new builds coming let us not forget the many changes this government has made to the rental market. The changes are seriously and significantly discouraging housing or keeping even slightly risky tenants. They are not top of the list for existing rentals let alone brand new. That is a housing crisis, and the taxpayer is the solution. Sorry taxpayers. Yep the tax regime may need a boost and reform if the state has to house the difficult tenants.

This cross party collaboration has come at least twenty years too late. Will they collaborate on the rental environment, tax regime and trades training? As a previous poster said, if you don't have the trades or infrastructure then what will it mean for actual supply...

As an aside, and not directed at you, the increase in name-calling of other posters on this thread is quite unpleasant. Disagreeing with and discussing other posters' opinions is one of the raisons d'être of the forum, but name-calling makes it unpleasant - In my opinion anyway.

TeslaGod
20-10-2021, 08:25 AM
Disagreeing with and discussing other posters' opinions is one of the raisons d'être of the forum, but name-calling makes it unpleasant - In my opinion anyway.

Agreed, although you have called me narcissistic.

Yes I am arrogant, my wife tells me that all the time!

"Intelligent" forum members reading my post understand I'm taking the piss out of myself and other rich pricks,

And when I explain how the system works and benefits me it just makes people angry instead of wanting to understand how it works, members prefer to insult me.(admittedly I enjoy it sometimes).

fungus pudding
20-10-2021, 08:49 AM
Income Tax top rate has just increased to 38%, bracket creep, Depreciation rules made tougher, bright line extended, inflation increasing. However Ardern did rule out a general CGT.

39% is the new top rate. Like me, Arthur Laffer will not be impressed. Labour are showing their economic ignorance with this; but perhaps the worst example of financial naivety is not recogmising mortgage interest as a deductible expense on residential rentals - IOW taxing turnover rather than profit. Unjust and unworkable.

TeslaGod
20-10-2021, 09:10 AM
Everything you said. But while there might be more new builds coming let us not forget the many changes this government has made to the rental market. The changes are seriously and significantly discouraging housing or keeping even slightly risky tenants. They are not top of the list for existing rentals let alone brand new. That is a housing crisis, and the taxpayer is the solution. Sorry taxpayers.

Yes Agreed,I just sold a property and one more on the market both cgt free.

I heard tenants couldn't find another place and were in a motel

After costs should have about 1.5million added to my own diversified stock portfolio, that safe investment section is going to earn me atleast 15% (225kp.a)

Not to mention the easy access to U.S investment banking margin lending at about 3%

I remember Adrian Orr recommending we do this at a press conference, we'll I was ahead of his game.

As for the tenants?

Well that's just basic economics I learned in 7th form.

kiora
20-10-2021, 10:27 AM
Agreed, although you have called me narcissistic.

Yes I am arrogant, my wife tells me that all the time!

"Intelligent" forum members reading my post understand I'm taking the piss out of myself and other rich pricks,

And when I explain how the system works and benefits me it just makes people angry instead of wanting to understand how it works, members prefer to insult me.(admittedly I enjoy it sometimes).

Thank C@#%t you have let on your secret to Aaron & he can now get on with what should have been more important to him :)

TeslaGod
20-10-2021, 10:39 AM
Thank C@#%t you have let on your secret to Aaron & he can now get on with what should have been more important to him :)

What secret angry man?

That I'm worth 8 figures?

You do realise we have billionaires running around NZ?

That's 10 figures .

westerly
20-10-2021, 11:22 AM
What secret angry man?

That I'm worth 8 figures?

You do realise we have billionaires running around NZ?

That's 10 figures .

Depends on how you judge worth. In your case ?

westerly

Blue Skies
20-10-2021, 11:58 AM
Govt appears intent on blundering into another completely avoidable disaster (like the Cycle bridge) with its stubborn insistence on imposing an Erebos Memorial on a site where it is not wanted and creating a lot of anger & resentment.

Despite the Ombudsman having started an investigation into the suspiciously flawed planning process, and a Rahui being placed over the site, contractors have been told not to wait before starting massive earthworks which will probably have to be reversed.
Over $1M of the $3M budget has already been spent without a spade being put in the ground.

Increasingly, Labour seem to have these blind spots & displaying a clumsy defensive stubbornness, unable to admit mistakes & improve agile decision making.

Apart from the small lawn area families use for picnics or just to enjoy the view, in Sir Dove Myer Park being destroyed, the memorial will have to face the wrong way (i.e. North instead of South), the site has historical significance to Ngati Whatua & hardly anyone wants it there including Erebos family members.

On the other hand, a site at Western Springs near the aircraft museum is not only suitable & appropriate, but they want it there.

So how do certain personalities in the Ministry of Culture & Heritage respond?
With complete disregard for the communities wishes, a stubborn refusal to admit the whole thing is a mistake & having to waste precious police resources to impose it anyway.
And why? Because Adern made a promise the Erebus Memorial would be built before the 40th anniversary (2019) of the Erebus disaster (which has long since passed ).

Why would anyone with half a brain even think pushing a memorial into a place where it is going to cause only anger and resentment, when there is a great alternative would be a good idea!
A memorial needs to be a quiet place of contemplation & reflection, this will be anything but if they insist on its current site & will never work.

Bjauck
20-10-2021, 12:05 PM
Agreed, although you have called me narcissistic.
... I cannot recall that. Where? I was the poster on another thread who asked you whether you may be indulging in some "schadenfreude."

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4419-NZ-1st-homebuyers-are-ScReWeD&p=913804&viewfull=1#post913804

TeslaGod
20-10-2021, 12:19 PM
I cannot recall that. Where? I was the poster on another thread who asked you whether you may be indulging in some "schadenfreude."

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4419-NZ-1st-homebuyers-are-ScReWeD&p=913804&viewfull=1#post913804

My apologies then kind sir.

Perhaps that was my wife.

winner69
20-10-2021, 01:39 PM
Came across this …interesting

@dpfdpf
Jacinda Arden declared 2019 to be the year of delivery so since then I have been tracking their delivery every anniversary of their election. Feel free to share.

BlackPeter
20-10-2021, 01:47 PM
Came across this …interesting

@dpfdpf
Jacinda Arden declared 2019 to be the year of delivery so since then I have been tracking their delivery every anniversary of their election. Feel free to share.

Depressing, but yes - facts talk so much louder than the constant repetition of silly personal attacks, which some others on this thread indulge in.

Thanks for sharing - good checklist for the next election.

kiora
20-10-2021, 02:25 PM
depends on how you judge worth. In your case ?

Westerly

:) tg aitmoaf

davflaws
21-10-2021, 06:00 AM
:) tg aitmoaf
Happy to show my ignorance - WTF does that mean?

fungus pudding
21-10-2021, 07:46 AM
Happy to show my ignorance - WTF does that mean?

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=AITMOAF

TG = thank god.

TeslaGod
21-10-2021, 08:31 AM
Good god there coming for me!

No more bragging about my wealth now! I'm off over the ditch!

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2110/S00201/labour-abusing-power-of-inland-revenue-to-campaign-on-envy-tax.htm

Balance
21-10-2021, 09:02 AM
Good god there coming for me!

No more bragging about my wealth now! I'm off over the ditch!

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2110/S00201/labour-abusing-power-of-inland-revenue-to-campaign-on-envy-tax.htm

So having failed to deliver on almost anything of consequence and having loaded up the NZ economy with burdensome debts, Clueless Cindy will play the politics of envy to divide NZers even further to stay in power.

Inheritance tax on the way.

peetter
21-10-2021, 11:00 AM
Good god there coming for me!

No more bragging about my wealth now! I'm off over the ditch!

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2110/S00201/labour-abusing-power-of-inland-revenue-to-campaign-on-envy-tax.htm

$50k fine for somebody with 20mil of networth is a not a big deal to keep government of their private information. I wouldn't comply if I had that kind of money.

There's always ways around inheritance tax, as it should. Inheritance tax is just a way to keep low/middle class in their place. To try and keep people from helping their children to escape wage slave status.

Logen Ninefingers
21-10-2021, 11:03 AM
Welcome to 'woke' policing in NZ under this soft on crime / 'we love the gangs' Labour rabble.

Rather than go around thenselves to make "appropriate enquiries" they just hand out addresses to civilians. The situation has now become absolutely disgusting under The Wokester, it is actually corrupt....the police have stopped doing their jobs, and the criminals must be loving it.

I guess there were no thieves in the house, just the sort of people that attack someone with an Ice Axe - ordinary everyday Kiwi's(?) Who else posting on here would attack someone who showed up at their door with an Ice Axe?

Assault? What if the bloke had been brained with the Ice Axe? Assault is a punch or a slap, attacking someone with an Ice Axe is something entirely different.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/126726067/auckland-man-attacked-with-ice-axe-after-police-directed-him-to-find-stolen-ute

Auckland man attacked with ice axe after police directed him to find stolen ute
Adam Jacobson
05:00, Oct 21 2021

A man attacked with an ice climbing axe after police directed him to a property to find his stolen vehicle says authorities failed to protect him.

William Mulholland awoke early Monday morning last week to discover his ute had been stolen from his property in Auckland’s Albany about 4am.

“I work in demolition – they took my tools, more than $2000 in cash and my grandson’s quad bike with them,” Mulholland said.

He reported the theft to police, who notified him about midday his vehicle had been seen at an address in the North Shore suburb of Browns Bay.

When he arrived, the ute was nowhere to be found, he said.

Mulholland approached the house police had identified, knocked on the door, and spoke to a woman for a couple of minutes before a man emerged from behind her and attacked him.

“He came straight for me, swung a climbing pick at me and I put up my arm. The first whack went into it. The second whack – I'm trying to get away at this point – hit me on the elbow.”

The attack left him with two “puncture wounds” and a constant nervous feeling that “this could happen again”, he said.

“I’m a pretty tough character, but it's upset my wife very much. Every little noise now I wake up, and she wakes up and double-checks everything's locked.”

A police spokesperson said authorities received a report of the assault and went to the address where a man was “located inside the property and arrested”.

A 30-year-old had been charged with assault with a weapon and was due to appear in North Shore District Court on November 2, police said.

But Mulholland said the police failed at their job in keeping him safe and that he “should never have been allowed near the place” to begin with.

“We just assumed that the ute had been dumped there and all we had to do was go pick it up.

“It makes me think the police are totally inadequate. And to have an attitude that it was my fault I was there is not good enough.”

When asked why Mulholland had been told the address, police said it “discouraged” the public from “taking matters into their own hands” and instead matters should be left for police to make “appropriate inquiries”.

The address was also searched for stolen property belonging to Mulholland, but nothing was found, authorities said.

Mulholland said he knew some of his stolen property was still in the house and told a senior police officer who had arrived at the scene following the assault that he wasn’t leaving until he got his property back.

The officer then threatened to arrest Mulholland for “breaching Covid-19 health orders” unless he vacated the area.

Mulholland’s son, Gary Mulholland, said no-one wanted to see anyone attacked, “let alone their Dad”.

“The police do nothing. He had his ute stolen, cash stolen, grandson's motorbike stolen, then he was stabbed,” he said.

Police said it was unable to “comment further” because the matter was before the courts.

TeslaGod
21-10-2021, 11:10 AM
$50k fine for somebody with 20mil of networth is a not a big deal to keep government of their private information. I wouldn't comply if I had that kind of money.

There's always ways around inheritance tax, as it should. Inheritance tax is just a way to keep low/middle class in their place. To try and keep people from helping their children to escape wage slave status.

Yeah I know

It's there as a vote bribe in 2023.

They need the wealthy more than we need NZ.

Not concerned.

Balance
21-10-2021, 11:53 AM
Welcome to 'woke' policing in NZ under this soft on crime / 'we love the gangs' Labour rabble.

Rather than go around thenselves to make "appropriate enquiries" they just hand out addresses to civilians. The situation has now become absolutely disgusting under The Wokester, it is actually corrupt....the police have stopped doing their jobs, and the criminals must be loving it.

I guess there were no thieves in the house, just the sort of people that attack someone with an Ice Axe - ordinary everyday Kiwi's(?) Who else posting on here would attack someone who showed up at their door with an Ice Axe?

Assault? What if the bloke had been brained with the Ice Axe? Assault is a punch or a slap, attacking someone with an Ice Axe is something entirely different.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/126726067/auckland-man-attacked-with-ice-axe-after-police-directed-him-to-find-stolen-ute

Auckland man attacked with ice axe after police directed him to find stolen ute
Adam Jacobson
05:00, Oct 21 2021

A man attacked with an ice climbing axe after police directed him to a property to find his stolen vehicle says authorities failed to protect him.

William Mulholland awoke early Monday morning last week to discover his ute had been stolen from his property in Auckland’s Albany about 4am.

“I work in demolition – they took my tools, more than $2000 in cash and my grandson’s quad bike with them,” Mulholland said.

He reported the theft to police, who notified him about midday his vehicle had been seen at an address in the North Shore suburb of Browns Bay.

When he arrived, the ute was nowhere to be found, he said.

Mulholland approached the house police had identified, knocked on the door, and spoke to a woman for a couple of minutes before a man emerged from behind her and attacked him.

“He came straight for me, swung a climbing pick at me and I put up my arm. The first whack went into it. The second whack – I'm trying to get away at this point – hit me on the elbow.”

The attack left him with two “puncture wounds” and a constant nervous feeling that “this could happen again”, he said.

“I’m a pretty tough character, but it's upset my wife very much. Every little noise now I wake up, and she wakes up and double-checks everything's locked.”

A police spokesperson said authorities received a report of the assault and went to the address where a man was “located inside the property and arrested”.

A 30-year-old had been charged with assault with a weapon and was due to appear in North Shore District Court on November 2, police said.

But Mulholland said the police failed at their job in keeping him safe and that he “should never have been allowed near the place” to begin with.

“We just assumed that the ute had been dumped there and all we had to do was go pick it up.

“It makes me think the police are totally inadequate. And to have an attitude that it was my fault I was there is not good enough.”

When asked why Mulholland had been told the address, police said it “discouraged” the public from “taking matters into their own hands” and instead matters should be left for police to make “appropriate inquiries”.

The address was also searched for stolen property belonging to Mulholland, but nothing was found, authorities said.

Mulholland said he knew some of his stolen property was still in the house and told a senior police officer who had arrived at the scene following the assault that he wasn’t leaving until he got his property back.

The officer then threatened to arrest Mulholland for “breaching Covid-19 health orders” unless he vacated the area.

Mulholland’s son, Gary Mulholland, said no-one wanted to see anyone attacked, “let alone their Dad”.

“The police do nothing. He had his ute stolen, cash stolen, grandson's motorbike stolen, then he was stabbed,” he said.

Police said it was unable to “comment further” because the matter was before the courts.

And the woke police threatened to use COVID restriction law to arrest him!!!

WTF were the police in the first place for the criminals to be able to roam around and steal things under the lockdown rules?

Blue Skies
21-10-2021, 11:53 AM
[QUOTE=Logen Ninefingers;918919]Welcome to 'woke' policing in NZ under this soft on crime / 'we love the gangs' Labour rabble.

Rather than go around thenselves to make "appropriate enquiries" they just hand out addresses to civilians. The situation has now become absolutely disgusting under The Wokester, it is actually corrupt....the police have stopped doing their jobs, and the criminals must be loving it.

I guess there were no thieves in the house, just the sort of people that attack someone with an Ice Axe - ordinary everyday Kiwi's(?) Who else posting on here would attack someone who showed up at their door with an Ice Axe?

Assault? What if the bloke had been brained with the Ice Axe? Assault is a punch or a slap, attacking someone with an Ice Axe is something entirely different.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/126726067/auckland-man-attacked-with-ice-axe-after-police-directed-him-to-find-stolen-ute

Auckland man attacked with ice axe after police directed him to find stolen ute
Adam Jacobson
05:00, Oct 21 2021


That's an appalling indictment on the state of policing. What's going on? Too much paper work, too many new recruits, lost too many older experienced hands, morale ??

Too many stories like this, another involving a Wellington women who had her E bike stolen, saw it advertised on Trade Me, told the police who were too busy to do a thing, so she contacted the crim/seller on Trade me, got a friend to drop her off & asked to take the bike for a test ride. She took off on her bike, whereupon the crim got in his car and chased her down & she was only saved presumably from a severe beating by screaming for help from passersby. The crim got back in his car & took off, don't think he's ever been caught.

When exactly the same thing happened in Paris, (saw her stolen bike advertised for sale) French police sent 2 police officers with the owner to reclaim her bike & dealt to the offender before arresting him. He won't be trying that again.

Getty
21-10-2021, 12:02 PM
We are taxed to have a police force, to stop people taking the law into their hands & vigilante action, supposedly.

When incidents as reported here occur, citizens lose faith, and don't report crime .

Then Poto Williams can appear on TV, and say the crime rate is going down.

artemis
21-10-2021, 12:05 PM
I feel sorry for the police. They have new orders these days whether they agree with them or not.

dobby41
21-10-2021, 12:40 PM
Free trade deal with the UK - gotta be a good thing?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126744981/uknz-free-trade-agreement-reached-promising-zerotariffs-and-970m-economic-boost

Logen Ninefingers
21-10-2021, 02:25 PM
An infectious DELTA carrier has likely spread this plague to the Hawkes Bay. Lucky for the populace of the Hawkes Bay the person was 'a permitted traveller' with 'an exemption to travel' - phew, that was a close one! Lucky they weren't the average law-abiding mask-wearing locked-down NZ citizen: there could have been a disaster!

Knowing who the Labour Party favours for 'permitted travel' I guess we can assume the person is a gang member, or a sex worker, or tangata whenua. The rest of us just need to lock the doors and hunker down while being told 'we got this', 'team of 5 million' etc etc.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-traveller-to-hawkes-bay-tests-positive-on-return-to-waikato-was-infectious-while-travelling/RGTXZIGNI2S5EHNROKWRVON76A/

Covid-19 Delta outbreak: Traveller to Hawke's Bay tests positive on return to Waikato, was 'infectious' while travelling
21 Oct, 2021 12:49 PM

A traveller to Hawke's Bay from Waikato who has tested positive for Covid was potentially infectious in the Hawke's Bay community.

One of Thursday's Covid-19 cases in Waikato was a permitted traveller with an exemption to travel to Napier last Friday, October 15, and returned a positive test once they returned to Waikato.

Panda-NZ-
21-10-2021, 02:56 PM
An infectious DELTA carrier has likely spread this plague to the Hawkes Bay. Lucky for the populace of the Hawkes Bay the person was 'a permitted traveller' with 'an exemption to travel' - phew, that was a close one! Lucky they weren't the average law-abiding mask-wearing locked-down NZ citizen: there could have been a disaster!

Why should we care anymore? double vaccine rates are at 60%+

Logen Ninefingers
21-10-2021, 03:31 PM
Why should we care anymore? double vaccine rates are at 60%+

According to Dr Blofeld this is a disease of the unvaccinated, so it begs the question: was the 'permitted traveller' vaccinated(?)

Logen Ninefingers
21-10-2021, 04:58 PM
Wow - 15 of the hunts are heading to this conference. One was too many, but fifteen....what a farce. Shaw and his pack of muppets are heading half way round the world - about 14 or 15 of them could have attended by Zoom call. I guess that's was so many people had the Green Socialists - they are absolute hypocrites.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/james-shaw-defends-cop26-climate-change-trip-to-glasgow/HSCHWI3CYZMPVO43XVLUAD5QQU/

Minister James Shaw will soon head to the 2021 United Nations Climate Change Conference — and he's annoyed about "some of the stick" he's been getting for taking a team of 15 with him.

dobby41
21-10-2021, 05:17 PM
Wow - 15 of the hunts are heading to this conference. One was too many, but fifteen....what a farce. Shaw and his pack of muppets are heading half way round the world - about 14 or 15 of them could have attended by Zoom call. I guess that's was so many people had the Green Socialists - they are absolute hypocrites.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/james-shaw-defends-cop26-climate-change-trip-to-glasgow/HSCHWI3CYZMPVO43XVLUAD5QQU/

Minister James Shaw will soon head to the 2021 United Nations Climate Change Conference — and he's annoyed about "some of the stick" he's been getting for taking a team of 15 with him.

Of course, the UK has said that there won't be Zoom and people must attend in person - so attending via Zoom would prove problematic.

This comment is in no way support or otherwise - just pointing out a fact.

Logen Ninefingers
21-10-2021, 05:44 PM
Free trade deal with the UK - gotta be a good thing?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126744981/uknz-free-trade-agreement-reached-promising-zerotariffs-and-970m-economic-boost

Yay - free trade deal. Tariffs to fully come off sheep and beef meat 15 years from now. Well done everyone.

Sir Ten
21-10-2021, 06:23 PM
Yay - free trade deal. Tariffs to fully come off sheep and beef meat 15 years from now. Well done everyone.

9digits, big fan of your general stance and commentary on this forum (and I hate Jacinda - yep, genuinely hate), but this is a reasonable outcome (despite the time period on sheep/beef).

I'm probably a victim of low expectations, but at least it has some potential to help carry the future load of the current lot's economic mismanagement.

Balance
21-10-2021, 07:16 PM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10110999/Iranian-cops-use-dog-catching-pole-arrest-woman-insulting.html

Clueless Cindy would approve, given her hijab wearing show of support for the oppression of Muslim women?

Excerpt : ‘This is the moment a woman was violently arrested in Iran using what appears to be a dog-catching pole for failing to wear a headscarf.’

BlackPeter
21-10-2021, 08:56 PM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10110999/Iranian-cops-use-dog-catching-pole-arrest-woman-insulting.html

Clueless Cindy would approve, given her hijab wearing show of support for the oppression of Muslim women?

Excerpt : ‘This is the moment a woman was violently arrested in Iran using what appears to be a dog-catching pole for failing to wear a headscarf.’

I think we all get that you don't like Jacinda, however this post is plain silly (as too many of yours ...).

Do you really not realise that Christian women, Jewish women and many Buddhist and Hindu women as well as Muslim women used to wear head scarfs for many centuries - and this had nothing to do with suppression. It is in countries with plenty of sun a good protection against sunlight, but yes - it is in many cultures as well used as symbol of modesty ... and it turned into being part of the culture.

If you open your eyes you might even discover that Christian nuns are still today covering their hair, as well as many elderly women in Christian based Mediterranean countries (e.g. in Southern Italy). They all wear it by choice.

It is pretty obvious for anybody with an open mind that our PM did wear the headscarf as sign of respect for a different culture instead of condoning the acts of a criminal authoritarian government.

You are consistently demonstrating blind hate and disrespect for other human beings. While there is no need to agree with the political goals or the implementation skills of our PM (I don't either) - I don't think she deserves your consistent and absolutely silly attacks.

And in fact - it is revolting posts like yours and from some other hard righters who are just driving people into the political left. Hardly any decent person would want to support a political camp which harbours so much hate, silliness and lack of respect.

Maybe you should start asking yourself what's wrong with yourself - and for a start - grow up!

Balance
21-10-2021, 10:26 PM
I think we all get that you don't like Jacinda, however this post is plain silly (as too many of yours ...).

Do you really not realise that Christian women, Jewish women and many Buddhist and Hindu women as well as Muslim women used to wear head scarfs for many centuries - and this had nothing to do with suppression. It is in countries with plenty of sun a good protection against sunlight, but yes - it is in many cultures as well used as symbol of modesty ... and it turned into being part of the culture.

If you open your eyes you might even discover that Christian nuns are still today covering their hair, as well as many elderly women in Christian based Mediterranean countries (e.g. in Southern Italy). They all wear it by choice.

It is pretty obvious for anybody with an open mind that our PM did wear the headscarf as sign of respect for a different culture instead of condoning the acts of a criminal authoritarian government.

You are consistently demonstrating blind hate and disrespect for other human beings. While there is no need to agree with the political goals or the implementation skills of our PM (I don't either) - I don't think she deserves your consistent and absolutely silly attacks.

And in fact - it is revolting posts like yours and from some other hard righters who are just driving people into the political left. Hardly any decent person would want to support a political camp which harbours so much hate, silliness and lack of respect.

Maybe you should start asking yourself what's wrong with yourself - and for a start - grow up!


Before you get on your high horse and mouth off more platitudes, know this :

Cindy did wear the hijab initially as a sign of respect for another religion & culture subject to a horrific terrorist incident and she was applauded widely for it. Bravo.

She continued to wear it however even after an Iranian group pleaded with her not to do so any further as it is a sign of oppression - why?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/116195738/dont-let-jacinda-arderns-headscarf-send-the-wrong-message

Because Cindy thought she was on to a real winner and that was more important to her than the plea NOT to pander any further to the oppressive nature of the hijab in certain Muslim countries.

Now, BP, get off your high horse and get real about what Cindy is all about - all spin & no delivery.

dobby41
22-10-2021, 09:22 AM
Yay - free trade deal. Tariffs to fully come off sheep and beef meat 15 years from now. Well done everyone.

I expected as much from you.
15 years is more than anyone expected given what history has shown.
The agreement is more than just sheep and beef of course.

fungus pudding
22-10-2021, 09:28 AM
I expected as much from you.
15 years is more than anyone expected given what history has shown.
The agreement is more than just sheep and beef of course.

Indeed it is. It also protects the obnoxious, barbaric haka.

Logen Ninefingers
22-10-2021, 11:04 AM
Jacinda copping it from Maori, they are never happy. They wanted the cash incentives ages ago to buy their compliance with vaccinations. I'm glad to see Labour getting smashed, they wanted to make a faustian bargain & they are getting their just desserts.

BDL
22-10-2021, 11:25 AM
"It is pretty obvious for anybody with an open mind that our PM did wear the headscarf as sign of respect for a different culture instead of condoning the acts of a criminal authoritarian government"

You don't have to "submit" your values to respect another culture. A headscarf has nothing to do with respect.
She only did the headscarf things for a "show", she is a lot more calculating than she is given credit for.

Bjauck
22-10-2021, 11:37 AM
I expected as much from you.
15 years is more than anyone expected given what history has shown.
The agreement is more than just sheep and beef of course.
Honey and wine should do well. This UK government made a deal with their biggest trade partner (The EU) and then almost immediately decided they did not like it and decided not to implement those bits they did not like. So we will have to see if the same happens with the NZ deal when UK farmers kick up a fuss and the UK government wants to forget about this deal.

BlackPeter
22-10-2021, 11:48 AM
Honey and wine should do well. This UK government made a deal with their biggest trade partner (The EU) and then almost immediately decided they did not like it and decided not to implement those bits they did not like. So we will have to see if the same happens with the NZ deal when UK farmers kick up a fuss and the UK government wants to forget about this deal.

Good point. British government is great in breaking and renegotiating contracts they signed if they find out they don't like them - just look at their games with the EU re North Ireland.

Not sure, why anybody still wants to make contracts with this bunch of untrustworthy people.

dobby41
22-10-2021, 02:14 PM
Honey and wine should do well. This UK government made a deal with their biggest trade partner (The EU) and then almost immediately decided they did not like it and decided not to implement those bits they did not like. So we will have to see if the same happens with the NZ deal when UK farmers kick up a fuss and the UK government wants to forget about this deal.

We can look forward to cheaper Gin apparently

Panda-NZ-
22-10-2021, 02:21 PM
Financial services too esp since UK are losing the EU as a customer.

I like using Wise for my personal overseas spending. 0.4% fee on foreign currency.

Logen Ninefingers
22-10-2021, 02:22 PM
There should not be one single poor Maori in NZ.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/126749242/nzuk-free-trade-deal-game-changing-for-the-mori-economy

NZ-UK free trade deal 'game changing' for the Māori economy
Thomas Manch
17:02, Oct 21 2021

The New Zealand-United Kingdom free trade agreement could be “game changing” for the Māori economy, with indigenous trade explicitly included in the text of the deal.

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern on Thursday announced an in-principle free trade agreement had been reached with the United Kingdom, which would ultimately remove tariffs for all New Zealand exports in the coming 15 years.

An indigenous trade chapter in the deal, called “groundbreaking” by Ardern, says both countries will promote Māori interest in the free trade relationship. The chapter is among aspects of the deal for which the fine print is yet to be settled.

And the Māori economic interests, estimated to be worth more than $60 billion, appeared primed to gain from the deal. Chris Karamea Insley, chairman of the Te Taumata board that advises the Government on Māori trade, said there was “a lot to be happy about”.

"There's a lot to be celebrated about this agreement. Certainly, for Māori, in many ways it's game changing and precedent setting.

“From a Māori point of view, you've got to look at the entire agreement. When I say it's game changing, it's not just because there's been an inclusion of an indigenous chapter.

“If you look at a lot of the removal of the trade barriers in the market-access space ... We own half of the New Zealand fishing industry, the removal of these tariffs are game-changing for Māori.

“We need more foreign direct investment in New Zealand as Māori, because we struggle to get foreign investment from banks ... That too is massive.”

Insley said there had been “hard negotiation” to get the indigenous chapter included in the deal, as “the British felt that it was potentially going to be too far precedent setting in terms of the broader discussions elsewhere in the world”.

The chapter would formally recognise the Māori economy, Māori knowledge, and Māori worldview in the trading relationship, he said.

Also specified in the in-principle agreement was “a commitment by the UK to co-operate with New Zealand to identify appropriate ways to advance recognition and protection of the haka Ka Mate”.

The Ka Mate haka, which has become iconic due to the All Blacks performing it, was a foundation of New Zealand’s identity, Insley said.

“It's great, is all I can say, that it is recognised in that way that it's in here.”

Panda-NZ-
22-10-2021, 08:45 PM
Dan andrews lifts his harsh victorian lockdown policies:

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/coronavirus/no-more-lockdowns-victorian-premier-dan-andrews-delivers-freedom-day-promise/news-story/1f9927cb57d5d2ed90492e38031ea3a6

How long until we will considering we are at the same numbers and have the better quality vaccine?

fungus pudding
23-10-2021, 07:57 AM
There should not be one single poor Maori in NZ.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/126749242/nzuk-free-trade-deal-game-changing-for-the-mori-economy

NZ-UK free trade deal 'game changing' for the Māori economy
Thomas Manch
17:02, Oct 21 2021

The New Zealand-United Kingdom free trade agreement could be “game changing” for the Māori economy, with indigenous trade explicitly included in the text of the deal.

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern on Thursday announced an in-principle free trade agreement had been reached with the United Kingdom, which would ultimately remove tariffs for all New Zealand exports in the coming 15 years.

An indigenous trade chapter in the deal, called “groundbreaking” by Ardern, says both countries will promote Māori interest in the free trade relationship. The chapter is among aspects of the deal for which the fine print is yet to be settled.

And the Māori economic interests, estimated to be worth more than $60 billion, appeared primed to gain from the deal. Chris Karamea Insley, chairman of the Te Taumata board that advises the Government on Māori trade, said there was “a lot to be happy about”.

"There's a lot to be celebrated about this agreement. Certainly, for Māori, in many ways it's game changing and precedent setting.

“From a Māori point of view, you've got to look at the entire agreement. When I say it's game changing, it's not just because there's been an inclusion of an indigenous chapter.

“If you look at a lot of the removal of the trade barriers in the market-access space ... We own half of the New Zealand fishing industry, the removal of these tariffs are game-changing for Māori.

“We need more foreign direct investment in New Zealand as Māori, because we struggle to get foreign investment from banks ... That too is massive.”

Insley said there had been “hard negotiation” to get the indigenous chapter included in the deal, as “the British felt that it was potentially going to be too far precedent setting in terms of the broader discussions elsewhere in the world”.

The chapter would formally recognise the Māori economy, Māori knowledge, and Māori worldview in the trading relationship, he said.

Also specified in the in-principle agreement was “a commitment by the UK to co-operate with New Zealand to identify appropriate ways to advance recognition and protection of the haka Ka Mate”.

The Ka Mate haka, which has become iconic due to the All Blacks performing it, was a foundation of New Zealand’s identity, Insley said.

“It's great, is all I can say, that it is recognised in that way that it's in here.”


('Also specified in the in-principle agreement was “a commitment by the UK to co-operate with New Zealand to identify appropriate ways to advance recognition and protection of the haka Ka Mate”.

The Ka Mate haka, which has become iconic due to the All Blacks performing it, was a foundation of New Zealand’s identity, Insley said.'}

That's the sad and sorry part. The cringey, puke making, barbaric haka from primitive times being protected.

Bjauck
23-10-2021, 08:25 AM
('Also specified in the in-principle agreement was “a commitment by the UK to co-operate with New Zealand to identify appropriate ways to advance recognition and protection of the haka Ka Mate”.

The Ka Mate haka, which has become iconic due to the All Blacks performing it, was a foundation of New Zealand’s identity, Insley said.'}

That's the sad and sorry part. The cringey, puke making, barbaric haka from primitive times being protected.

It is great to see the UK addressing indigenous issues, even in a token way, in a country in which its colonial policies had such an impact on indigenous communities.

A war challenge for a brutal sport, with a sad litany of rugby injuries from schoolboy games through the grades. The physical aggression of this sport developed on the playing fields of an elite English public school found a kindred spirit in the performance of the haka.

davflaws
23-10-2021, 09:08 AM
That's the sad and sorry part. The cringey, puke making, barbaric haka from primitive times being protected.

Nah - I think the sad and sorry bit is you - cringing and pukeing. You can always turn your back, block your ears and remember how much fun you used to have doing the Hokey Tokey. Or you could get a life.

Balance
23-10-2021, 09:31 AM
Nah - I think the sad and sorry bit is you - cringing and pukeing. You can always turn your back, block your ears and remember how much fun you used to have doing the Hokey Tokey. Or you could get a life.

And this is the way you communicate & interact with the ‘unfortunates’ you supposedly help? God help them because you definitely cannot.

fungus pudding
23-10-2021, 09:41 AM
Nah - I think the sad and sorry bit is you - cringing and pukeing. You can always turn your back, block your ears and remember how much fun you used to have doing the Hokey Tokey. Or you could get a life.

Yes. I do turn my back on the haka bit. If I was a Maori I'd be highly embarrassed; I suppose some are.

Balance
23-10-2021, 11:45 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126726176/covid19-case-in-blenheim-is-south-islands-first-community-case-since-2020

Case in South Island.

Covid for Christmas - gift from Clueless Cindy being delivered.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jack-tame-vaccine-certificates-should-have-been-ready-months-ago/DT2HCZ4JXZIVGDV4F4TOMX4ZI4/

But still clueless about how & when to deliver on a vaccine passport/certificate.

Logen Ninefingers
23-10-2021, 12:18 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126726176/covid19-case-in-blenheim-is-south-islands-first-community-case-since-2020

Case in South Island.

Covid for Christmas - gift from Clueless Cindy being delivered.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jack-tame-vaccine-certificates-should-have-been-ready-months-ago/DT2HCZ4JXZIVGDV4F4TOMX4ZI4/

But still clueless about how & when to deliver on a vaccine passport/certificate.

Might have been spread there by Labour’s chosen people - a sex worker or gang member maybe(?)

Another $110 million going into trying to push (part)Maori to get vaccinated. I wonder how the money will be spent - maybe targeted TV and Radio advertising(?) Seems to be an eye-watering sum of money for an ad campaign. Only 850,000 (part)Maori in NZ remember.

BlackPeter
23-10-2021, 12:21 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126726176/covid19-case-in-blenheim-is-south-islands-first-community-case-since-2020

Case in South Island.

Covid for Christmas - gift from Clueless Cindy being delivered.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jack-tame-vaccine-certificates-should-have-been-ready-months-ago/DT2HCZ4JXZIVGDV4F4TOMX4ZI4/

But still clueless about how & when to deliver on a vaccine passport/certificate.

To be fair - do you know any political leader world wide who managed to absolutely protect his / her country against Covid?

From my recollection - the only one would be (according to his statements) the "dear" leader of North Korea ... and I am not quite sure, whether I should trust his words :) ;

While I agree with you that a number of things in the Covid response could have been handled better - am I not sure we can blame Jacinda for the lack of discipline of various individuals ... and I guess somebody must have breached some of the rules to give this fellow in Blenheim the virus.

Blame the lack of discipline and respect many of todays parents teach their children ...

dobby41
23-10-2021, 01:43 PM
Yes. I do turn my back on the haka bit. If I was a Maori I'd be highly embarrassed; I suppose some are.

If you were Maori you would still be you - enuf said.

dobby41
23-10-2021, 01:47 PM
Might have been spread there by Labour’s chosen people - a sex worker or gang member maybe(?)

Another $110 million going into trying to push (part)Maori to get vaccinated. I wonder how the money will be spent - maybe targeted TV and Radio advertising(?) Seems to be an eye-watering sum of money for an ad campaign. Only 850,000 (part)Maori in NZ remember.

Or maybe not.
Casting aspersions is the best you can do?

And it was $120mil, not $110.
Indications have already been given on how it will be spent - door-to-door campaign is one option.
I doubt Radio and TV advertising would do the trick but I suppose if you were running the show that would be the best you could do - or maybe you would just ignore the issue?

Still, it's a lot of money for 1 group - $150 for each person. Maybe just give them $150 when they turn up for the 2nd shot?

iceman
23-10-2021, 02:09 PM
Might have been spread there by Labour’s chosen people - a sex worker or gang member maybe(?)

Another $110 million going into trying to push (part)Maori to get vaccinated. I wonder how the money will be spent - maybe targeted TV and Radio advertising(?) Seems to be an eye-watering sum of money for an ad campaign. Only 850,000 (part)Maori in NZ remember.

I don't know anything about this person in Blenheim other than he/she is a known contact to the Te Awamutu cluster. Most or all of the people in that cluster are well "known to police".

davflaws
23-10-2021, 03:38 PM
And this is the way you communicate & interact with the ‘unfortunates’ you supposedly help? God help them because you definitely cannot.

Yup - a bit scratchy this morning, honarary granddaughter's birthday was booked at the Parua bay pub tonight.

But surely - you should rejoice!

You claim to believe that my personal and professional efforts have inevitably done more harm than good by producing a host of beneficiaries with a sense of entitlement and grievance. You are sure that they vote labour.

Does evidence of my incompetence not reassure you - even a little?

Panda-NZ-
23-10-2021, 03:57 PM
Still, it's a lot of money for 1 group - $150 for each person. Maybe just give them $150 when they turn up for the 2nd shot?

Yes that'll probably do it.

fungus pudding
23-10-2021, 04:36 PM
If you were Maori you would still be you - enuf said.

I'd be a modified me. Similar innings, but in a different shell.

davflaws
23-10-2021, 06:05 PM
Yes. I do turn my back on the haka bit. If I was a Maori I'd be highly emwbarrassed; I suppose some are.

Fair enough. I withdraw and apologise for suggesting you should get a life. You clearly have one, and you are very obviously interested in the world around you. I let my niggles over the cringe/puke run away with me.

I have sure been embarrassed by a few hakas - and since I'm writing to you I nearly rewrote the earlier bit to avoid committing myself to hakas. But Ka Mate has become special.

Anyway - I reckon it saves a lot of grief to have the option of looking at Ka Mate on a number of levels. Sometimes its a genuine challenge, more often it is only a symbol (though we might argue about what it signifies on any particular occassion). It is always a dramatic performance. If it is done well it moves me.

The group protesting the building of Nawha prison in their rohe moved me with Ka Mate. I wasn't bothered by the contradictions inherent in performing a Ngati Toa haka in defence of the mana of Ngapuhi. But that was for different reasons.

My school's performance of Ka Mate never moved me in the slightest, but I didn't cringe at the time tho I would now.

The All Blacks prior to Buck Shelford were pretty cringeworthy too.

I'm sure some Maori (you avoided committment to an s there) are embarrassed on occassion too.

winner69
23-10-2021, 06:12 PM
and will we be required to show respect to and admire Morris Dancing

FTG
23-10-2021, 06:36 PM
Still, it's a lot of money for 1 group - $150 for each person. Maybe just give them $150 when they turn up for the 2nd shot?

Yes, we could do that. But surely Maori don't want to be sitting on another gravy train that ultimately leads to a dead end?

Agreed, $120,000,000 is certainly a mighty big trainload of money.

...and of course let's remember, this is additional to the 'vaccine rollout' monies already being budgeted & getting spent/invested by the Govt. Plus, additional to the all monies being invested by Iwi & NGO's to also assist in achieving the desired outcomes amongst Maori.

The stated purpose of the additional $120M spend is to assist Maori in getting the unvaccinated Maori actually vaccinated.
With respect Dobbie, it is far more than $150 per person. So what would a slightly more accurate per person cost be I hear you ask.

First up, 25% of the 850,000 Maori population are under 12 yrs old. Meaning for now we are now actually talking a maximum group size of 640,000.

Secondly & importantly when looking at that eligible group, we know that 48% of those have already achieved the desired outcome by being double jabbed.
(Plus an additional 20% have just the first dose, so they are already on the way to achieving the desired outcome).

I don't need to spell it out, so I'll let you do the numbers, but I'm sure even a yr 10 student could work it out & see it is significantly more than $150 for each person.

Is it a well considered, measured & responsible use of $120M (just pause and look at the number, it's eye watering!) of current & future taxpayers money?
Definitely not. Even a Skunk would have a better chance of passing that sniff test!

fungus pudding
23-10-2021, 07:02 PM
Fair enough. I withdraw and apologise for suggesting you should get a life. You clearly have one, and you are very obviously interested in the world around you. I let my niggles over the cringe/puke run away with me.

I have sure been embarrassed by a few hakas - and since I'm writing to you I nearly rewrote the earlier bit to avoid committing myself to hakas. But Ka Mate has become special.

Anyway - I reckon it saves a lot of grief to have the option of looking at Ka Mate on a number of levels. Sometimes its a genuine challenge, more often it is only a symbol (though we might argue about what it signifies on any particular occassion). It is always a dramatic performance. If it is done well it moves me.

The group protesting the building of Nawha prison in their rohe moved me with Ka Mate. I wasn't bothered by the contradictions inherent in performing a Ngati Toa haka in defence of the mana of Ngapuhi. But that was for different reasons.

My school's performance of Ka Mate never moved me in the slightest, but I didn't cringe at the time tho I would now.

The All Blacks prior to Buck Shelford were pretty cringeworthy too.

I'm sure some Maori (you avoided committment to an s there) are embarrassed on occassion too.

First thing every morning I have a peek in the mirror to ensure I've still got a life - and so far I have. Yes, I do not use Maori as a plural - even though most dictionaries now accept it as an alternative. I'm surprised you do, as you seem to be a fan of the letter 's', even going to the trouble of twice jamming an extra one into 'occasion' -:t_up:

Logen Ninefingers
23-10-2021, 08:38 PM
Talking of this vaccine roll-out and the purported 850,000 ‘Maori’ - if a European and a Maori have a baby together, is this new human being considered to be -

A) A Maori

B) A European

Just asking for a friend.

I think we’d all be better off as a ‘human race’ if we stopped classifying people in racist terms according to their skin colour - i.e currently if they have brown skin they seem to get classified as a Maori and any other heritage be damned.

moka
23-10-2021, 09:59 PM
Before you get on your high horse and mouth off more platitudes, know this :

Cindy did wear the hijab initially as a sign of respect for another religion & culture subject to a horrific terrorist incident and she was applauded widely for it. Bravo.

She continued to wear it however even after an Iranian group pleaded with her not to do so any further as it is a sign of oppression - why?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/116195738/dont-let-jacinda-arderns-headscarf-send-the-wrong-message

Because Cindy thought she was on to a real winner and that was more important to her than the plea NOT to pander any further to the oppressive nature of the hijab in certain Muslim countries.

Now, BP, get off your high horse and get real about what Cindy is all about - all spin & no delivery.The real problem is not that Jacinda wore a headscarf as a mark of respect, it is that men, muslim and others, think they have the right to control women and tell them what they can wear, and deny women choice. And some men even make ridiculous statements about what they think her intentions when wearing the headscarf to paint her in a bad light to validate their misogynist views. Same old sexist behaviour of men thinking they have the right to define women’s experiences.

davflaws
24-10-2021, 04:11 AM
First thing every morning I have a peek in the mirror to ensure I've still got a life - and so far I have. Yes, I do not use Maori as a plural - even though most dictionaries now accept it as an alternative. I'm surprised you do, as you seem to be a fan of the letter 's', even going to the trouble of twice jamming an extra one into 'occasion' -:t_up:

Touche(s)!

fungus pudding
24-10-2021, 08:19 AM
Touche(s)!

Merci :)

Balance
24-10-2021, 11:22 AM
The real problem is not that Jacinda wore a headscarf as a mark of respect, it is that men, muslim and others, think they have the right to control women and tell them what they can wear, and deny women choice. And some men even make ridiculous statements about what they think her intentions when wearing the headscarf to paint her in a bad light to validate their misogynist views. Same old sexist behaviour of men thinking they have the right to define women’s experiences.

And Cindy played right into their hands - showing just how clueless she really is and is so pre-occupied with spin rather than substance & delivery.

Excerpt from the article quoted :

"Among the audience were many minor girls. I saw them and remembered a short conversation I once had while transiting at Dubai International Airport. When the man noticed I was looking at his hijab-ed toddler, he asked me if I had children. I said I didn't, and he volunteered that once I'd had a baby girl, I should teach her to cover her hair at a very early age.

"But isn't observing hijab only expected of Muslim females when they hit puberty?" I asked. The man laughed at my naivety, and said: "That's true, but it is best that you make them get used to it in early childhood. Let it grow with and on them while they are easy to control."

His wife, who happened to be sitting next to him, listened to us without uttering a word. I couldn't see her facial expressions as her black burqa had them completely covered.

I wonder how many of the young attendees from Zayed College for Girls have actually chosen to veil. And how many of them would be allowed to take it off, if they so wished. I hope the next time Jacinda Ardern feels tempted to appear in a headscarf, she takes a moment first to consider that she could well be sending the Muslim girls of New Zealand, and the world, the wrong message."

dobby41
24-10-2021, 03:46 PM
Is it well considered, measured & responsible use of $120M (just pause and look at the number, it's eye watering!) of current & future taxpayers money?
Definitely not. Even a Skunk would have a better chance of passing that sniff test!

I'm not sure how you're trying to paint me, maybe I'm reading more into it than there is, but I made a simple comment - not an agreement (or not) with any policy.

Balance
24-10-2021, 03:48 PM
“But there was nothing to boost the flagging spirits of the good foot soldiers. Just more money being spent on people who are unable or unwilling to follow the road map out of this mess.”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/kerre-mcivor-i-think-the-pm-wanted-to-bring-hope-i-came-away-with-anything-but/J4CPID6SDABWTTLVJF4TAGHB4I/

So Clueless Cindy has not been to Auckland once since the latest lockdown (hard and sharp and long). The optics of Aucklanders showing her the middle finger would not look good, would it on prime time TV?

dobby41
24-10-2021, 03:55 PM
“But there was nothing to boost the flagging spirits of the good foot soldiers. Just more money being spent on people who are unable or unwilling to follow the road map out of this mess.”



Yes - she's a bit like a child really.
Nothing for me, wave arms, have tantrum.
Adults can usually see the bigger picture.

FTG
24-10-2021, 05:38 PM
I'm not sure how you're trying to paint me, maybe I'm reading more into it than there is, but I made a simple comment - not an agreement (or not) with any policy.

I wasn't painting you with any colour dobby. There's no need.

What I was doing however was clearly voicing distaste for the Labour Govt making yet another loose & poorly considered fiscal decision. Basically not treating current & future taxpayers money with the respect that it deserves. In fact a total disrespect, and another example of expensive token gesture politics.

Giving further perspective, let's say the $120M was instead invested in NZ's health system, for the longer term, rather than providing some sort of a sugar hit for a small % of the population. A system that provides healthcare for all New Zealanders (regardless of ethnicity). We would then be able to pay for an additional....

570 fully qualified & experienced nurses for the next 3 years!

Logen Ninefingers
24-10-2021, 06:00 PM
Does any understand what ‘Maori’ are whinging about in regards to the vaccination roll-out? They really just need to STFU and get on with it. We are all NZers!! Asian NZers very quickly went and got themselves vaccinated at very high rates, without foot-dragging, without demands for special treatment, without any of this brattish carry-on. The vaccine is free, the vaccine is widely available throughout the country. No-one has been left out in the cold, everyone has the same access to the vaccine. Stop with the constant bitter greviance mentality about absolutely every aspect of life and just get on with it.

Balance
24-10-2021, 06:39 PM
Does any understand what ‘Maori’ are whinging about in regards to the vaccination roll-out? They really just need to STFU and get on with it. We are all NZers!! Asian NZers very quickly went and got themselves vaccinated at very high rates, without foot-dragging, without demands for special treatment, without any of this brattish carry-on. The vaccine is free, the vaccine is widely available throughout the country. No-one has been left out in the cold, everyone has the same access to the vaccine. Stop with the constant bitter greviance mentality about absolutely every aspect of life and just get on with it.

A cabinet packed with assertive & aggressive Maori ministers, who have showed themselves completely useless when it comes to helping the government get Maori on board the vaccination campaign.

Remember fighting COVID is the stated no 1 priority of this government and really, the only thing it has done in power of any consequence to the betterment of all NZers.

So WTF have they been doing, outside of pressuring (& getting their way) Clueless Cindy to keep dishing out race based policies & $$$$ to benefit and favour one race?

The $120m* to ‘assist’ in getting Maori vaccinated is no more than another prime example of the ‘handout’ welfare mindset of a section of the Maori population, used now to Cindy bending over to accommodate their every wishes.

“From hāngi and vouchers, walk-in clinics and vax buses, partnerships with iwi, local communities and businesses, communities going door-to-door, vaccinations on sports fields and at kura and many more initiatives - we’ve seen what works and this fund will support more of it,” Peeni Henare said.

Northland Maoris for example are going into daily, weekly and special weekend draws to win prizes ($6,000 travel packages, $100 prezzie cards etc) when they get vaccinated. Strange how 80+% of NZers did not need any incentive to get vaccinated? Just as $$$ can make taniwha go away, $$$$ can also suddenly make Maori want to get vaccinated.

https://www.northlanddhb.org.nz/home/covid-19/covid-19-northland-hub/ka-pai-te-taitokerau-covid-19/

A bunch of nincompoops led by a spin mistress hell bent on retaining power des[pite delivering bugger all - that’s the government NZ has today.

*Remember the $120m to fix maraes election bribe which created 150 jobs instead of the 3,000 jobs promised? Wonder where all that lovely $$$ went?

Balance
24-10-2021, 06:57 PM
Yes, we could do that. But surely Maori don't want to be sitting on another gravy train that ultimately leads to a dead end?

Agreed, $120,000,000 is certainly a mighty big trainload of money.

...and of course let's remember, this is additional to the 'vaccine rollout' monies already being budgeted & getting spent/invested by the Govt. Plus, additional to the all monies being invested by Iwi & NGO's to also assist in achieving the desired outcomes amongst Maori.

The stated purpose of the additional $120M spend is to assist Maori in getting the unvaccinated Maori actually vaccinated.
With respect Dobbie, it is far more than $150 per person. So what would a slightly more accurate per person cost be I hear you ask.

First up, 25% of the 850,000 Maori population are under 12 yrs old. Meaning for now we are now actually talking a maximum group size of 640,000.

Secondly & importantly when looking at that eligible group, we know that 48% of those have already achieved the desired outcome by being double jabbed.
(Plus an additional 20% have just the first dose, so they are already on the way to achieving the desired outcome).

I don't need to spell it out, so I'll let you do the numbers, but I'm sure even a yr 10 student could work it out & see it is significantly more than $150 for each person.

Is it well considered, measured & responsible use of $120M (just pause and look at the number, it's eye watering!) of current & future taxpayers money?
Definitely not. Even a Skunk would have a better chance of passing that sniff test!

Work through your numbers :

850,000 Maori of which 75% are eligible = 637,500

Of the 637,500, 68% have received their first & second doses so 204,000 left to be vaccinated.

$120m to be spent on getting 204,000 vaccinated = $588 per Maori.

WTF is going on in NZ?

Logen Ninefingers
24-10-2021, 09:38 PM
A cabinet packed with assertive & aggressive Maori ministers, who have showed themselves completely useless when it comes to helping the government get Maori on board the vaccination campaign.

Remember fighting COVID is the stated no 1 priority of this government and really, the only thing it has done in power of any consequence to the betterment of all NZers.

So WTF have they been doing, outside of pressuring (& getting their way) Clueless Cindy to keep dishing out race based policies & $$$$ to benefit and favour one race?

The $120m* to ‘assist’ in getting Maori vaccinated is no more than another prime example of the ‘handout’ welfare mindset of a section of the Maori population, used now to Cindy bending over to accommodate their every wishes.

“From hāngi and vouchers, walk-in clinics and vax buses, partnerships with iwi, local communities and businesses, communities going door-to-door, vaccinations on sports fields and at kura and many more initiatives - we’ve seen what works and this fund will support more of it,” Peeni Henare said.

Northland Maoris for example are going into daily, weekly and special weekend draws to win prizes ($6,000 travel packages, $100 prezzie cards etc) when they get vaccinated. Strange how 80+% of NZers did not need any incentive to get vaccinated? Just as $$$ can make taniwha go away, $$$$ can also suddenly make Maori want to get vaccinated.

https://www.northlanddhb.org.nz/home/covid-19/covid-19-northland-hub/ka-pai-te-taitokerau-covid-19/

A bunch of nincompoops led by a spin mistress hell bent on retaining power des[pite delivering bugger all - that’s the government NZ has today.

*Remember the $120m to fix maraes election bribe which created 150 jobs instead of the 3,000 jobs promised? Wonder where all that lovely $$$ went?

You are kidding me. $6000 travel packages. We are being fleeced and hoodwinked left, right, and centre. All thanks to the weak & gormless ricks who voted for this utter circus.

Panda-NZ-
25-10-2021, 01:22 AM
If the british don't like it then it seems the trade deal is good for us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDk70M8jgqQ

peetter
25-10-2021, 09:14 AM
"Be kind". Imagine that, you don't have to work, get a house and can do whatever you want. Who wouldn't want life like that.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/rowdy-avondale-state-house-triggers-72-auckland-council-noise-complaints-in-just-seven-months/27M6MWAGNHHZWWM34RTA3DHK64/

Balance
25-10-2021, 09:44 AM
"Be kind". Imagine that, you don't have to work, get a house and can do whatever you want. Who wouldn't want life like that.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/rowdy-avondale-state-house-triggers-72-auckland-council-noise-complaints-in-just-seven-months/27M6MWAGNHHZWWM34RTA3DHK64/

And Cindy wants to breed even more of them - more votes for her.

Logen Ninefingers
25-10-2021, 10:50 AM
"Be kind". Imagine that, you don't have to work, get a house and can do whatever you want. Who wouldn't want life like that.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/rowdy-avondale-state-house-triggers-72-auckland-council-noise-complaints-in-just-seven-months/27M6MWAGNHHZWWM34RTA3DHK64/

Welcome to Labour’s new New Zealand.
Where are the (woke) police while all this is going on?
Law-abiding ordinary Kiwi’s have their lives utterly destroyed while the weak and gormless PTB sit on their thumbs and make umpteen excuses why they can’t take action.

‘The man said the situation had affected their physical and mental wellbeing. His partner was in tears when the Herald called and he had developed chronic insomnia, post-traumatic stress disorder, and hyper-sensitivity to music.‘

peetter
25-10-2021, 10:59 AM
Welcome to Labour’s new New Zealand.
Where are the (woke) police while all this is going on?
Law-abiding ordinary Kiwi’s have their lives utterly destroyed while the weak and gormless PTB sit on their thumbs and make umpteen excuses why they can’t take action.

‘The man said the situation had affected their physical and mental wellbeing. His partner was in tears when the Herald called and he had developed chronic insomnia, post-traumatic stress disorder, and hyper-sensitivity to music.‘

I think the problem is that do gooders will never acknowledge that some people actually deserve to be homeless living under the bridge. There's plenty of lazy people that would get of their ass in case this was a real option, but as long as there's the safety net of state housing and benefits no matter how badly they behave, they'll just keep on doing whatever they like living of taxpayer money.

Bjauck
25-10-2021, 11:58 AM
Does any understand what ‘Maori’ are whinging about in regards to the vaccination roll-out? They really just need to STFU and get on with it. We are all NZers!! Asian NZers very quickly went and got themselves vaccinated at very high rates, without foot-dragging, without demands for special treatment, without any of this brattish carry-on. The vaccine is free, the vaccine is widely available throughout the country. No-one has been left out in the cold, everyone has the same access to the vaccine. Stop with the constant bitter greviance mentality about absolutely every aspect of life and just get on with it.

The tax cuts of the past 30 years and bare-bones funding of public services have helped destroy what was probably a more unified NZ population. Perhaps we can no longer can we expect the blind loyalty of the disadvantaged to government policies? A public health crisis has exposed these cracks in contemporary NZ, that had been growing for decades.

Balance
25-10-2021, 01:22 PM
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZSeYs2BhT/

Logen Ninefingers
25-10-2021, 02:18 PM
The tax cuts of the past 30 years and bare-bones funding of public services have helped destroy what was probably a more unified NZ population. Perhaps we can no longer can we expect the blind loyalty of the disadvantaged to government policies? A public health crisis has exposed these cracks in contemporary NZ, that had been growing for decades.

Here we go: tax cuts. In your next post you’ll be raving about ‘neoliberalism’ - I’m surprised you restrained yourself from mentioning it in that one. They’ve simply borrowed / printed Billions since the GFC so it’s neither here nor there to talk about tax cuts - the eye-watering spending continues unabated no matter what level taxes are at. We live in a country where the government can suddenly pull $120 million out of thin air to spend on Maori vaccinations, we live in a country where the government can suddenly QUADRUPLE (to $1.3 Billion) the amount of ‘climate cash’ it gives to poor nations.

How much had GST taken in since it was introduced btw?

FTG
25-10-2021, 03:03 PM
The tax cuts of the past 30 years and bare-bones funding of public services have helped destroy what was probably a more unified NZ population. Perhaps we can no longer can we expect the blind loyalty of the disadvantaged to government policies? A public health crisis has exposed these cracks in contemporary NZ, that had been growing for decades.

As we know, Tax is the primary source of revenue Govt. uses to "run the country". We also know that pre-Covid, Govt. spends on average >40% of total national GDP. In other words, $40 out of every $100 is pure Govt expenditure, rather than by individuals & free enterprise. (who knows how much it will be during these Covid times!)

Question for you. So if you deem $40 is too low, how much do you think is about right?

Panda-NZ-
25-10-2021, 03:16 PM
The largest areas of spending is health issues for a population who used to die before retirement age.

We could have funded this entirely if we kept making contributions to the NZ super fund.

Panda-NZ-
25-10-2021, 03:18 PM
Other areas have seen cutbacks to funding of course.

Though at least we aren't spending on military submarines like australia.

peetter
25-10-2021, 03:52 PM
I don't have knowledge of full 30 years, but what tax cuts are we talking about?

fungus pudding
25-10-2021, 04:43 PM
I don't have knowledge of full 30 years, but what tax cuts are we talking about?

Muldoon in a fit of nutterism raised the top rate on income to 66%. Roger Douglas who actually understood how the world works came along and fixed it all up - reducing income tax to sensible levels, and replacing our ridiculous haphazard sales taxes with a well designed GST system.

Panda-NZ-
25-10-2021, 04:56 PM
Yes NZ almost became broke under that reform.

Highest debt nz has ever had after Sir rogers term.

Logen Ninefingers
25-10-2021, 06:38 PM
Yes NZ almost became broke under that reform.

Highest debt nz has ever had after Sir rogers term.

So you’re a Muldoonist. Or maybe someone who pines for the ‘good old days’ of Norman Kirk.

fungus pudding
25-10-2021, 07:42 PM
So you’re a Muldoonist. Or maybe someone who pines for the ‘good old days’ of Norman Kirk.

Probably got a statue of Wallace Rowling in her lounge I'd say.

Panda-NZ-
25-10-2021, 08:24 PM
So you’re a Muldoonist. Or maybe someone who pines for the ‘good old days’ of Norman Kirk.

How about Australia.
Some good decisions made by them in the 1990's are being eroded today though.



"In December 2014, the OECD released the Global Income Inequality Report which said "rising inequality is estimated to have knocked more than 10 percentage points off growth in New Zealand" between 1990 and 2010 [16].The paper found no evidence that redistributive policies, such as taxes and social benefits, harm economic growth, provided these policies are well designed, targeted and implemented."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality_in_New_Zealand

peetter
25-10-2021, 08:49 PM
Muldoon in a fit of nutterism raised the top rate on income to 66%. Roger Douglas who actually understood how the world works came along and fixed it all up - reducing income tax to sensible levels, and replacing our ridiculous haphazard sales taxes with a well designed GST system.

This I know, but that's actually more than 30 years so i wasn't sure if Bjauck is really ranting about something even more than 30 years ago and saying it's 30 years of tax cuts.

Balance
25-10-2021, 09:59 PM
I have yet to meet a single person who ever paid Muldoon’s 66% tax rate. Anyone earning income in that tax bracket had a multitude of ways to not only reduce their tax but to not pay tax at all by using a tax specialist.

There were tax avoidance schemes, tax loopholes and tax incentives back in those days for Africa! Only a mug paid much by way of tax because tax accountants & lawyers put together tax minimisation schemes in farming, movies, new industries, forestry, airplanes, heavy machineries and just about anything possible. Then there were double dip tax deductions, preference shares to transfer tax losses from one entity to another and the list just went on and on.

Took Roger Douglas and Lange’s government to completely revamp the tax system and introduced GST.

peetter
25-10-2021, 10:41 PM
There's a nice example of this from couple years ago in France. They tried 75% tax, they failed. There's a point people will just say it's enough and leave.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/france-drops-75percent-supertax

Logen Ninefingers
26-10-2021, 06:05 AM
Inequality in NZ and other western democracies has been driven by the loopy policies of central banks since the GFC. Interest rates have been slashed to the bone and kept there, plus the ‘Quantitative Easing’ which started in the US and then spread everywhere. Has meant that asset owners have become much richer, and everyone else is going backwards due to the inflation that has inevitably emerged and is now gathering pace.

fungus pudding
26-10-2021, 07:57 AM
I have yet to meet a single person who ever paid Muldoon’s 66% tax rate. Anyone earning income in that tax bracket had a multitude of ways to not only reduce their tax but to not pay tax at all by using a tax specialist.

There were tax avoidance schemes, tax loopholes and tax incentives back in those days for Africa! Only a mug paid much by way of tax because tax accountants & lawyers put together tax minimisation schemes in farming, movies, new industries, forestry, airplanes, heavy machineries and just about anything possible. Then there were double dip tax deductions, preference shares to transfer tax losses from one entity to another and the list just went on and on.

Took Roger Douglas and Lange’s government to completely revamp the tax system and introduced GST.

I know someone very well who paid it. Believe me.

fungus pudding
26-10-2021, 08:02 AM
There's a nice example of this from couple years ago in France. They tried 75% tax, they failed. There's a point people will just say it's enough and leave.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/france-drops-75percent-supertax

Arthur Laffer explained it well and demonstrated it with 'The Laffer curve'. It applies to much more than just taxes. e.g manufactured goods, services etc.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/laffercurve.asp


(Arthur Laffer acknowledges that he did not come up with the idea for his namesake curve on his own. Indeed, Ibn Khaldun, a 14th-century Muslim philosopher, wrote in his work The Muqaddimah: "It should be known that at the beginning of the dynasty, taxation yields a large revenue from small assessments. At the end of the dynasty, taxation yields a small revenue from large assessments.")

777
26-10-2021, 08:23 AM
http://keithrankin.co.nz/Rankin_Muldoon-years_Hamilton-conference_2014.pdf

Tables at end show the marginal rates.

Balance
26-10-2021, 08:24 AM
I know someone very well who paid it. Believe me.

That someone should have used a good tax accountant.

Like I wrote, I have yet to meet one single individual who ever paid the 66%. I have seen many individuals (hundreds) however who earned mega bucks during that era and paid zero or bigger all tax.

And it was easy as - for example, high income individuals bought into kiwifruit syndicates which developed land into orchards. All the development expenses were tax deductible but the gains from selling the syndicate units were tax free. Magic.

Then there were the financing of plant (especially airplanes) where the same high depreciation was claimed in two countries due to a loophole in tax treaty agreements. Magic!

fungus pudding
26-10-2021, 08:54 AM
That someone should have used a good tax accountant.

Like I wrote, I have yet to meet one single individual who ever paid the 66%. I have seen plenty however who earned mega bucks during that era and paid zero tax.

And it was easy as - for example, high income individuals bought into kiwifruit syndicates which developed land into orchards. All the development expenses were tax deductible but the gains from selling the syndicate units were tax free. Magic.

Not as easy as it sounds with an individual who at the time was heavily committed, both time and dollar wise. He doesn't like to use cliches, and certainly doesn't often mix them, but he did tell me he was up to his eyeballs with too much on his plate.

Bjauck
26-10-2021, 09:14 AM
This I know, but that's actually more than 30 years so i wasn't sure if Bjauck is really ranting about something even more than 30 years ago and saying it's 30 years of tax cuts. Fair enough, it was a bit of a Labour Day blunderbuss of a rant:)

The gaps between various groups and the advantaged and disadvantaged in NZ has grown wider over recent decades, and wider still during Covid for a mixture of reasons, some of which include the the presence (and absence) of various types of taxes. As a result It seems fanciful to expect all sectors of society to be willing, or perhaps even be able, to pull together in the same way, and adhere to the official covid response.

fungus pudding
26-10-2021, 09:25 AM
Fair enough, it was a bit of a Labour Day blunderbuss of a rant:)

The gaps between various groups and the advantaged and disadvantaged in NZ has grown wider over recent decades, and wider still during Covid for a mixture of reasons, some of which include the the presence (and absence) of various types of taxes. As a result It seems fanciful to expect all sectors of society to be willing, or perhaps even be able, to pull together in the same way, and adhere to the official covid response.

By 'advantaged and disadvantaged' are you meaning the well off and the struggling? Or are you thinking of advantages and disadvantages other than financial?

Balance
26-10-2021, 09:33 AM
Not as easy as it sounds with an individual who at the time was heavily committed, both time and dollar wise. He doesn't like to use cliches, and certainly doesn't often mix them, but he did tell me he was up to his eyeballs with too much on his plate.

All the more reason to use an outside tax consultant?

Anyway, such is life but minimizing tax is every taxpayer's own responsibility.

"Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes."

Gregory v. Helvering, 69 F.2d 809, 810 (2d Cir. 1934)


"Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of morals is mere can't."

Commissioner v. Newman, 159 F.2d 848, 851 (2d Cir. 1947)

Bjauck
26-10-2021, 10:02 AM
By 'advantaged and disadvantaged' are you meaning the well off and the struggling? Or are you thinking of advantages and disadvantages other than financial? Diverging Wealth and the diverging advantages that brings.

Also, the result of the various grievance settlements may be beneficial and but the process may stoke the grievances and make for a less cohesive or unified populace in the meantime.

peetter
26-10-2021, 10:09 AM
I love when people think taxes can and will solve any inequality. It's not like government has a huge track record of inefficiency and failed promises, whatever side they come from.

Want to solve inequality? You won't. It's impossible. All you can do is maybe teach everyone how to work and how to work with money they make by working. That's the only way people can be lifted of poverty. By working out of it on their own.

Balance
26-10-2021, 10:15 AM
I love when people think taxes can and will solve any inequality. It's not like government has a huge track record of inefficiency and failed promises, whatever side they come from.

Want to solve inequality? You won't. It's impossible. All you can do is maybe teach everyone how to work and how to work with money they make by working. That's the only way people can be lifted of poverty. By working out of it on their own.

Communism was supposed to solve inequality, remember?

It failed so miserably that even Russia & China abandoned communism - it's there only in name.

fungus pudding
26-10-2021, 10:15 AM
All the more reason to use an outside tax consultant?

Anyway, such is life but minimizing tax is every taxpayer's own responsibility.

"Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes."

Gregory v. Helvering, 69 F.2d 809, 810 (2d Cir. 1934)


"Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of morals is mere can't."

Commissioner v. Newman, 159 F.2d 848, 851 (2d Cir. 1947)

Yes, most of us are aware of all that. But avoidance is not as simple as having a better tax advisor. Some people the friend I was referring to knows, actually find that evasion mixed in with a little avoidance works quite well for them.

Balance
26-10-2021, 10:24 AM
Yes, most of us are aware of all that. But avoidance is not as simple as having a better tax advisor. Some people the friend I was referring to knows, actually find that evasion mixed in with a little avoidance works quite well for them.

Evasion? Best to steer a million miles clear from even a hint of that.

fungus pudding
26-10-2021, 10:28 AM
Evasion? Best to steer a million miles clear from even a hint of that.

Exactly. I've told my friend to be careful of the companies he keeps.

Bjauck
26-10-2021, 01:19 PM
I love when people think taxes can and will solve any inequality. It's not like government has a huge track record of inefficiency and failed promises, whatever side they come from.

Want to solve inequality? You won't. It's impossible. All you can do is maybe teach everyone how to work and how to work with money they make by working. That's the only way people can be lifted of poverty. By working out of it on their own.
It depends on the abilities and skills people are born with too, and their market values. Tax settings can further affect inequality of wealth and financial gains.

Consequently there will always be a trade-off with the tolerance to the effects of greater inequality (lack of obedience and identification with society or a common cause.)

moka
26-10-2021, 02:28 PM
All the more reason to use an outside tax consultant?

Anyway, such is life but minimizing tax is every taxpayer's own responsibility.

"Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes."

Gregory v. Helvering, 69 F.2d 809, 810 (2d Cir. 1934)


"Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of morals is mere can't."

Commissioner v. Newman, 159 F.2d 848, 851 (2d Cir. 1947)Capitalist propaganda. Neoliberal propaganda. Biased misleading information used to further the interests of capitalism.
Many people would not agree because they understand that taxes provide roads, hospitals, education, all of which help to make a civilised society.
In spite of what the quote says not everyone arranges their affairs to keep their tax as low as possible.

Balance
26-10-2021, 02:33 PM
Capitalist propaganda. Neoliberal propaganda. Biased misleading information used to further the interests of capitalism.
Many people would not agree because they understand that taxes provide roads, hospitals, education, all of which help to make a civilised society.
In spite of what the quote says not everyone arranges their affairs to keep their tax as low as possible.

Those are quotes from the judgement - based upon the law. So forget your labels and insinuations etc.

When the government shows that it can spend my money better than I can, I will happily hand over most of my income for the government to look after me.

Balance
26-10-2021, 03:04 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018817825/sir-david-skegg-on-traffic-light-system-and-reopening-nz

As promised by Clueless Cindy - COVID for Christmas & 2022.

dobby41
26-10-2021, 03:22 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018817825/sir-david-skegg-on-traffic-light-system-and-reopening-nz

As promised by Clueless Cindy - COVID for Christmas & 2022.

Do you think that there is a way that the whole country won't get covid spread?
You imply that there is.
I'd be interested to read your plan.

Balance
26-10-2021, 03:28 PM
Do you think that there is a way that the whole country won't get covid spread?
You imply that there is.
I'd be interested to read your plan.

Remember this : "On the first day of Christmas National gave to me: COVID," Deputy Prime Minister Grant Robertson joked in Parliament."

I am simply observing Clueless Cindy's promise (via Grant Robertson & Chris Hipkins) that there wouldn't be Covid by Christmas if she is in charge.

Turns out she is delivering it ahead of time!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/126618134/covid-for-christmas-the-jibe-that-could-come-back-to-haunt-labour

Covid for Christmas. It was a line that Labour ministers Grant Robertson and Chris Hipkins effectively deployed with glee last week when National released its Covid policy.

National, they said, with its policy to open the borders at an 85 per cent vaccination rate, would be virtually giving Kiwis the virus for Christmas.

It was a clever line from two men who have spent almost their entire adult and professional lives trying to destroy the National Party. They just couldn’t help themselves.

Yet it is now something that both men – Hipkins in particular, as Covid-19 response minister – could well live to regret. There will most likely be Covid for Christmas, but it won’t have been via an open border or the National Party.

It will be from the Government’s elimination strategy, from which it is now trying to crab-walk away.

dobby41
26-10-2021, 03:43 PM
It will be from the Government’s elimination strategy, from which it is now trying to crab-walk away.[/COLOR]

Right - so nothing from you.
The elimination strategy was never forever - it worked well till it didn't then they moved on - as you'd expect them to.

peetter
26-10-2021, 03:49 PM
Capitalist propaganda. Neoliberal propaganda. Biased misleading information used to further the interests of capitalism.
Many people would not agree because they understand that taxes provide roads, hospitals, education, all of which help to make a civilised society.
In spite of what the quote says not everyone arranges their affairs to keep their tax as low as possible.

I have yet to meet a person that woud reject tax refund. Government may provide roads, hospitals, education, all of which help to make a civilised society, but it also buys overpriced art, funds anti drug use programs run by drug peddling gangs, runs unnecessary departments, wastes money on working groups to then dismiss all their advice, runs most of the projects way over budget and many more wasteful things.

Giving money to government is like throwing it into wind in most cases.

Balance
26-10-2021, 03:52 PM
Right - so nothing from you.
The elimination strategy was never forever - it worked well till it didn't then they moved on - as you'd expect them to.

It is not for me to suggest anything but for the COVID for Christmas Cindy to live up to her sidekicks’ promise, right?

You will never be able to put words in my mouth but nice try, indoctrinated devotee of the clueless one.

Panda-NZ-
26-10-2021, 03:52 PM
Right - so nothing from you.
The elimination strategy was never forever - it worked well till it didn't then they moved on - as you'd expect them to.

It was only ever until the vaccine arrived - so mission success.

dobby41
26-10-2021, 04:05 PM
It is not for me to suggest anything but for the COVID for Christmas Cindy to live up to her sidekicks’ promise, right?

You will never be able to put words in my mouth but nice try, indoctrinated devotee of the clueless one.

You say stuff as if there was an alternative but aren't willing to voice an alternative - a very hollow vessel!

I don't need to put words into your mouth - a read back of the posts shows you can do it all for yourself.

It's a big over-reaction

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12305282

NZ joins Oz - travellers from China banned.

Finally - some common sense.

Nope - victory for scare mongering.

Let’s see if NZ bans the Northern Hemisphere visitors who bring in the flu every year.

Balance
26-10-2021, 04:10 PM
You say stuff as if there was an alternative but aren't willing to voice an alternative - a very hollow vessel!

I don't need to put words into your mouth - a read back of the posts shows you can do it all for yourself.

It's a big over-reaction

And I am proud & ever ready to stand behind every word I write.

Not spin like Clueless Cindy & her indoctrinated devotees.

You, dobby41, have such low expectations of your leader. Keep that to yourself please.

dobby41
26-10-2021, 04:43 PM
And I am proud & ever ready to stand behind every word I write.

Not spin like Clueless Cindy & her indoctrinated devotees.

You, dobby41, have such low expectations of your leader. Keep that to yourself please.

It is good that you stand behind what you say, a pity though that what you say does not stand the test of time.

You also ignore difficult questions and prevaricate, side-step, and conflate as much as you can.

I have high, but realistic, expectations.

Balance
26-10-2021, 04:57 PM
It is good that you stand behind what you say, a pity though that what you say does not stand the test of time.

You also ignore difficult questions and prevaricate, side-step, and conflate as much as you can.

I have high, but realistic, expectations.

Kiwibuild?

Child poverty?

Reducing crime?

Harmonious race relations?

Accountability & transparency?

COVID for Christmas?

You fool no one with your low & unrealistic expectations, dobby41! :t_down:

Bjauck
26-10-2021, 05:32 PM
Those are quotes from the judgement - based upon the law. So forget your labels and insinuations etc.

When the government shows that it can spend my money better than I can, I will happily hand over most of my income for the government to look after me. American Supreme Court decisions and American law are not binding in NZ. Have these views on morality and taxation avoidance been followed by judgments in NZ? NZ has its own anti-avoidance statutory provisions. In some cases of interpretation, NZ judges can assess the policy behind the provisions.

Logen Ninefingers
26-10-2021, 05:54 PM
Bjauck Horseman is saying that because of '30 years of tax cuts', groups like Maori no longer want to engage.

Strange logic.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/maori-economy-put-at-687b-workforce-up-by-100000-people-new-berl-report/L5AYBCPGGUKPJPBQJAC4BN3GNA/

Te Tiriti settlements to date were about $2.2b in cash and assets transferred from the Crown during the last quarter-century.

"The assets and businesses of Māori employers are spread broadly across many sectors, including the primary industries, as well as manufacturing and service sectors. Assets in the real estate and property services sector total over $8.2b, with another $7.5b in agriculture, forestry, and fishing. In the latter category, forestry assets dominate at $3b with $1.6b in dairy farming," BERL found.

Balance
26-10-2021, 05:59 PM
Adern on vaccine mandate :

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/09/coronavirus-jacinda-ardern-confident-enough-kiwis-will-get-covid-19-vaccine-for-herd-immunity-without-being-forced-to.html

On Tuesday Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern went a step further, saying not only will there be no forced vaccinations, but those who choose to opt-out won't face any penalties at all.

"No, and we haven't for any vaccination in New Zealand applied penalties in that way," Ardern told The AM Show, after being asked if there might be tax penalties or other sanctions for refusing a COVID-19 vaccine.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-announces-details-on-vaccination-mandates-for-businesses/GBSSQAXRSHDXCWKQXWIBCVPDXI/

"Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern on Tuesday announced a sweeping vaccine mandate in businesses in the hospitality sector, and others including gyms, barbers, and hairdressers where customers are expected to have vaccine certificates."

You cannot trust this clueless woman Cindy with undertakings - changes her mind every ten minutes.

kiora
26-10-2021, 06:02 PM
Bjauck Horseman is saying that because of '30 years of tax cuts', groups like Maori no longer want to engage.

Strange logic.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/maori-economy-put-at-687b-workforce-up-by-100000-people-new-berl-report/L5AYBCPGGUKPJPBQJAC4BN3GNA/

Te Tiriti settlements to date were about $2.2b in cash and assets transferred from the Crown during the last quarter-century.

"The assets and businesses of Māori employers are spread broadly across many sectors, including the primary industries, as well as manufacturing and service sectors. Assets in the real estate and property services sector total over $8.2b, with another $7.5b in agriculture, forestry, and fishing. In the latter category, forestry assets dominate at $3b with $1.6b in dairy farming," BERL found.

And pay 0 rates & tax ?

Balance
26-10-2021, 06:20 PM
And pay 0 rates & tax ?

https://ngaitahu.iwi.nz/our_stories/charitable-status-tk78/

But of course.

Bjauck
26-10-2021, 06:32 PM
Bjauck Horseman is saying that because of '30 years of tax cuts', groups like Maori no longer want to engage.

Strange logic.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/maori-economy-put-at-687b-workforce-up-by-100000-people-new-berl-report/L5AYBCPGGUKPJPBQJAC4BN3GNA/

Te Tiriti settlements to date were about $2.2b in cash and assets transferred from the Crown during the last quarter-century.

"The assets and businesses of Māori employers are spread broadly across many sectors, including the primary industries, as well as manufacturing and service sectors. Assets in the real estate and property services sector total over $8.2b, with another $7.5b in agriculture, forestry, and fishing. In the latter category, forestry assets dominate at $3b with $1.6b in dairy farming," BERL found. I note your unilateral addition to my username! I guess Horseperson or Equestrian was out of the question?

Sure, tax reforms are a factor. I am not in a position to be able to says whether financial settlements to date should make the affected iwi content that past violations are fully compensated. What is given by one hand can be taken by the other?

Balance
26-10-2021, 08:36 PM
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/barry-soper-the-prime-minister-ought-to-front-up-to-aucklanders/

Clueless Cindy at her most transparent & accountable self - using weasel words to avoid being honest & truthful.

What a piece of nasty work she is turning out to be.

iceman
26-10-2021, 09:00 PM
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/barry-soper-the-prime-minister-ought-to-front-up-to-aucklanders/

Clueless Cindy at her most transparent & accountable self - using weasel words to avoid being honest & truthful.

What a piece of nasty work she is turning out to be.

She is an incredibly dishonest and incompetent PM. Tomorrow we will hear about a "relaxation" of the most ridiculous border restrictions in the World (called MIQ) and then a day or a week later we will hear about how she and her entourage of dozens of useless bureaucrats are heading to Europe. Apparently on an urgent mission to finalise a NZ-EU FTA. Strangely the UK-NZ FTA didn't need her and to be honest, I can not see how she could intellectually make any difference to the finalising of this agreements. She's a complete intellectual featherweight as can be seen by her failures with every single policy she has tried to implement. NZ is going down the gurgler.

couta1
26-10-2021, 09:16 PM
She is an incredibly dishonest and incompetent PM. Tomorrow we will hear about a "relaxation" of the most ridiculous border restrictions in the World (called MIQ) and then a day or a week later we will hear about how she and her entourage of dozens of useless bureaucrats are heading to Europe. Apparently on an urgent mission to finalise a NZ-EU FTA. Strangely the UK-NZ FTA didn't need her and to be honest, I can not see how she could intellectually make any difference to the finalising of this agreements. She's a complete intellectual featherweight as can be seen by her failures with every single policy she has tried to implement. NZ is going down the gurgler. The most divisive and toxic politician we have seen in this country, I never believed the NZ we now live in was ever possible.

peetter
26-10-2021, 09:17 PM
Adern on vaccine mandate :

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/09/coronavirus-jacinda-ardern-confident-enough-kiwis-will-get-covid-19-vaccine-for-herd-immunity-without-being-forced-to.html

On Tuesday Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern went a step further, saying not only will there be no forced vaccinations, but those who choose to opt-out won't face any penalties at all.

"No, and we haven't for any vaccination in New Zealand applied penalties in that way," Ardern told The AM Show, after being asked if there might be tax penalties or other sanctions for refusing a COVID-19 vaccine.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-announces-details-on-vaccination-mandates-for-businesses/GBSSQAXRSHDXCWKQXWIBCVPDXI/

"Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern on Tuesday announced a sweeping vaccine mandate in businesses in the hospitality sector, and others including gyms, barbers, and hairdressers where customers are expected to have vaccine certificates."

You cannot trust this clueless woman Cindy with undertakings - changes her mind every ten minutes.


Got to say this took a hard turn. The conspiracy theorist will have field day with this one coming true along with covid passes etc.

BlackPeter
27-10-2021, 10:15 AM
Adern on vaccine mandate :

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/09/coronavirus-jacinda-ardern-confident-enough-kiwis-will-get-covid-19-vaccine-for-herd-immunity-without-being-forced-to.html

On Tuesday Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern went a step further, saying not only will there be no forced vaccinations, but those who choose to opt-out won't face any penalties at all.

"No, and we haven't for any vaccination in New Zealand applied penalties in that way," Ardern told The AM Show, after being asked if there might be tax penalties or other sanctions for refusing a COVID-19 vaccine.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-announces-details-on-vaccination-mandates-for-businesses/GBSSQAXRSHDXCWKQXWIBCVPDXI/

"Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern on Tuesday announced a sweeping vaccine mandate in businesses in the hospitality sector, and others including gyms, barbers, and hairdressers where customers are expected to have vaccine certificates."

You cannot trust this clueless woman Cindy with undertakings - changes her mind every ten minutes.

To be fair - neither you nor I nor anybody else knew how this Covid thingee is going to develop. Fair enough if she changes her views based on newer and better information. We all should do that, balance - even you :p ;

I think the vaccination mandate as it currently stands is a great idea. While I agree that her government failed to achieve most (or was it all?) of her stated targets, I think we still should give praise where praise is due.

I like the vaccination mandates ... and I hope this will be followed up by an opening of our absolutely broken MIQ system.

Admittedly - so far we see (again) only wishful thinking ... lets cross fingers she is capable of pulling this through.

Balance
27-10-2021, 10:53 AM
To be fair - neither you nor I nor anybody else knew how this Covid thingee is going to develop. Fair enough if she changes her views based on newer and better information. We all should do that, balance - even you :p ;

I think the vaccination mandate as it currently stands is a great idea. While I agree that her government failed to achieve most (or was it all?) of her stated targets, I think we still should give praise where praise is due.

I like the vaccination mandates ... and I hope this will be followed up by an opening of our absolutely broken MIQ system.

Admittedly - so far we see (again) only wishful thinking ... lets cross fingers she is capable of pulling this through.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126797566/government-pushes-ahead-with-three-waters-reform-will-take-water-assets-from-councils

Seizing water assets from councils after promising councils can opt out.

You have a very charitable view of the broken promises of Clueless Cindy, BP. You sure it doesn’t affect your future & your future generations?

Logen Ninefingers
27-10-2021, 10:54 AM
The Iwi take-over of New Zealand continues - they are going for it now, the gloves are coming off.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126797566/government-pushes-ahead-with-three-waters-reform-will-take-water-assets-from-councils

Government pushes ahead with Three Waters reform, will take water assets from councils
Thomas Manch
10:30, Oct 27 2021

The Government has decided to push ahead with Three Waters reforms and claim billions in water assets from local councils, despite considerable opposition.

The proposed reform of the country’s three water services – drinking, waste, and storm water – has caused outcry among political opponents and most local councils, which currently have ownership of water assets, have loudly oppose proposed reforms.

Local Government Minister Nanaia Mahuta on Wednesday said the Government would legislate in early December to create four new water entities that would take on the water assets currently owned by councils.

However, the question of future control and governance of the entities and the water assets remained unclear. Mahuta said the Government would establish a working group of local government, iwi and water industry experts to "work through elements of entity design”.

Logen Ninefingers
27-10-2021, 10:55 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126797566/government-pushes-ahead-with-three-waters-reform-will-take-water-assets-from-councils

Seizing water assets from councils after promising councils can opt out.

You have a very charitable view of the broken promises of Clueless Cindy, BP. You sure it doesn’t affect your future & your future generations?

'Fry-cook Horsey' is sitting in the back seat smiling and waving, the Maori Caucus are driving the car.

peetter
27-10-2021, 11:09 AM
To be fair - neither you nor I nor anybody else knew how this Covid thingee is going to develop. Fair enough if she changes her views based on newer and better information. We all should do that, balance - even you :p ;

I think the vaccination mandate as it currently stands is a great idea. While I agree that her government failed to achieve most (or was it all?) of her stated targets, I think we still should give praise where praise is due.

I like the vaccination mandates ... and I hope this will be followed up by an opening of our absolutely broken MIQ system.

Admittedly - so far we see (again) only wishful thinking ... lets cross fingers she is capable of pulling this through.

I think even though not vaccinating is stupid, forcing somebody by threatening to fire them from jobs is too much. I am against government mandates in this. Other countries use combination of vaccine passports and negative tests successfully and we're already way ahead of these countries in vaccination rates.

Getty
27-10-2021, 11:10 AM
The Iwi take-over of New Zealand continues - they are going for it now, the gloves are coming off.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126797566/government-pushes-ahead-with-three-waters-reform-will-take-water-assets-from-councils

Government pushes ahead with Three Waters reform, will take water assets from councils
Thomas Manch
10:30, Oct 27 2021

The Government has decided to push ahead with Three Waters reforms and claim billions in water assets from local councils, despite considerable opposition.

The proposed reform of the country’s three water services – drinking, waste, and storm water – has caused outcry among political opponents and most local councils, which currently have ownership of water assets, have loudly oppose proposed reforms.

Local Government Minister Nanaia Mahuta on Wednesday said the Government would legislate in early December to create four new water entities that would take on the water assets currently owned by councils.

However, the question of future control and governance of the entities and the water assets remained unclear. Mahuta said the Government would establish a working group of local government, iwi and water industry experts to "work through elements of entity design”.

Excuse me Jacinda, what's happened to democracy, consultation and transperency?

Also, such a major theft, and you pretend you don't know what governance will be?

What is Willie suggesting?

We can NOT do this!

Logen Ninefingers
27-10-2021, 11:24 AM
Excuse me Jacinda, what's happened to democracy, consultation and transperency?

Also, such a major theft, and you pretend you don't know what governance will be?

What is Willie suggesting?

We can NOT do this!

We can NOT do this!

Her Left Wing army has already been brainwashed ahead of time: "Team of 5 Million - let's do this!"

The Government was warned in April that it was progressing too quickly with its water reform by both Treasury and Te Waihanga - the Infrastructure Commission - saying the speed of the changes "means there will be a high level of uncertainty around the implementation of the reforms".

fungus pudding
27-10-2021, 11:25 AM
I think even though not vaccinating is stupid, forcing somebody by threatening to fire them from jobs is too much.

Surely an employer should have the right to enforce vaccination. What if the rest of the staff walk out or resign because they're not happy alongside a non-vaccinated worker?

BlackPeter
27-10-2021, 11:33 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126797566/government-pushes-ahead-with-three-waters-reform-will-take-water-assets-from-councils

Seizing water assets from councils after promising councils can opt out.

You have a very charitable view of the broken promises of Clueless Cindy, BP. You sure it doesn’t affect your future & your future generations?

I don't think this is true ... I am just able to see the good as well as the bad while it appears you are suffering under some sort of mental block :) which clearly impacts on your otherwise quite well developed analytical capabilities.

For a start - if you would stop this childish labelling of our PM, then some more people might still take you seriously.

But anyway - we didn't talk about the three waters, and no - from what I have seen so far, I don't like the proposal. Just creating another expensive bureaucratic layer which the taxpayer needs to fork out for. However - this has nothing to do with the vaccination mandate.

I don't like the quite racist and xenophobe approach of our current government and neither that they are trying to push on us a plethora of policies they never have campaigned on.

They introduced three waters without asking the electorate and try to push this through against the wish of the people. They broke our immigration system under the pretence of Covid - and the xenophobe, arrogant and inhumane approach of our lazy and inept anti immigration minister is disgraceful at best.

Their race based policies on distributing political power as well as money based on the colour of once skin instead of based on need and merit is disgusting.

Clearly - they neither improved the housing situation (as they promised), nor child poverty (as they promised), but they broke a lot of things which did work before (not perfect, but better than now) on the way to get there. Our education system under Labour got much more expensive, but not a iota better. Our justice system is as broken as ever. Just throwing money at things does not work, but we knew that before, didn't we?

I assume we both can agree on above ... however, this still does not mean that there is anything wrong with the vaccination mandate and Jacinda's changed views on it. And while this well might impact on our nearer future ... I would see this particular item as having a positive impact.

dobby41
27-10-2021, 01:05 PM
What if the rest of the staff walk out or resign because they're not happy alongside a non-vaccinated worker?

Or if someone gets Covid and the workplace has to shut for a day or 2?

Logen Ninefingers
27-10-2021, 01:44 PM
The Lefty's want to keep the discussion focussed on 'COVID, COVID, COVID'....they can't talk about KiwiBuild, the housing catastrophe, 3 Waters, He Pupua, child poverty, the lack of ICU beds, and all the other outrages of this government so 'COVID, COVID, COVID' it has to be I guess.

peetter
27-10-2021, 01:48 PM
Surely an employer should have the right to enforce vaccination. What if the rest of the staff walk out or resign because they're not happy alongside a non-vaccinated worker?

Doesn't make sense, if that person does regular testing there's no more risk than with vaccinated person who's not tested at all. Vaccine only decreases chance of transmission, it also doesn't have 100% efficiency, so some vaccinated people have no immunity. It's actually safer to have unvaccinated person regularly tested than vaccinated person not tested at all. Don't forget some people can be non symptomatic carriers.

Business can't fire a person for coming in sick with cold or flu, but you think it's ok to fire a person for not vaccinating? There's plenty of groups that could be included in your sentence "What if the rest of the staff walk out or resign because they're not happy alongside a xxxxxx worker?"

Logen Ninefingers
27-10-2021, 01:50 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300439026/traffic-building-at-auckland-borders-northlandbound-hkoi-remains-blocked-by-police

Traffic building at Auckland borders, Northland-bound Hīkoi remains blocked by police
Mina Kerr-Lazenby
12:39, Oct 27 2021

A hīkoi headed to Northland has been refused entry by police at Auckland’s southern border, prompting marchers to spend the night camped on the roadside.

The march, planned to travel from the Rotorua in the Bay of Plenty to Northland, is the product of anti-vaxxers and anti-lockdown groups.

Despite prior warning from police against the hīkoi, a convoy of around 50 vehicles and approximately 100 people arrived at the Southern checkpoint border in Mercer late Tuesday night, with the intention of moving to Waitangi.

The group, which calls itself Sovereign Hīkoi of Truth (SHOT), had been redirected by police to a gravel area on Orams Rd.

Police said most of the protestors complied, however two protest vehicles, including a bus, were parked on State Highway 1 in the northern lanes with its drivers refusing to move them.

Traffic had to be diverted overnight as a result, and police are still trying to get the occupied vehicles of the road.

A dozens-strong line of cars still sits backed up at the Mercer checkpoint, waiting to be let through.

“Traffic is still able to travel through the southern checkpoints, however some delays have been reported, so motorists are advised to expect some delays,” said police.

“Police are incredibly disappointed that this group of protestors have chosen to take this action.”

A spokesman from KiwiRail said they are closely monitoring the situation at Mercer.

“Participants in the hīkoi are not currently on the tracks, but trains are travelling through the area at a reduced speed as a safety precaution,” he said.

Panda-NZ-
27-10-2021, 01:52 PM
The Lefty's want to keep the discussion focussed on 'COVID, COVID, COVID'....they can't talk about KiwiBuild, the housing catastrophe, 3 Waters, He Pupua, child poverty, the lack of ICU beds, and all the other outrages of this government so 'COVID, COVID, COVID' it has to be I guess.

Well we do uniquely have few deaths from covid.

Which is an achievement along with the decent NZ economy.

peetter
27-10-2021, 01:56 PM
Well we do uniquely have few deaths from covid.

Which is an achievement along with the decent NZ economy.

What's unique on it? It's the same as AUS. Having an option to close borders, because you're island in middle of nowhere is what caused this. Nothing to do with anything else.

Panda-NZ-
27-10-2021, 02:10 PM
No wonder you're a trump supporter.

Everything good = not by this govt.
Everything bad = defo' jacindas fault.

peetter
27-10-2021, 02:22 PM
No wonder you're a trump supporter.

Everything good = not by this govt.
Everything bad = defo jacindas fault.

If that was reaction to my post, you missed by a mile.

dobby41
27-10-2021, 02:39 PM
What's unique on it? It's the same as AUS. Having an option to close borders, because you're island in middle of nowhere is what caused this. Nothing to do with anything else.

Same as Aus - 28 v's 1653 in Aus
Population adjusted that would be 330 here - so 10x the number.

Australia could close its borders also.

fungus pudding
27-10-2021, 03:01 PM
Doesn't make sense, if that person does regular testing there's no more risk than with vaccinated person who's not tested at all. Vaccine only decreases chance of transmission, it also doesn't have 100% efficiency, so some vaccinated people have no immunity. It's actually safer to have unvaccinated person regularly tested than vaccinated person not tested at all. Don't forget some people can be non symptomatic carriers.

Business can't fire a person for coming in sick with cold or flu, but you think it's ok to fire a person for not vaccinating? There's plenty of groups that could be included in your sentence "What if the rest of the staff walk out or resign because they're not happy alongside a xxxxxx worker?"

Good - include them as well then. Never forget the golden rule.

peetter
27-10-2021, 03:11 PM
Good - include them as well then. Never forget the golden rule.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather not be poked in the brain 3 times a week. I hear from my relatives in Europe it can mess up your tissue and give you nasty nosebleeds. That's why I got vaccinated.

fungus pudding
27-10-2021, 03:30 PM
I don't know about you, but I'd rather not be poked in the brain 3 times a week. I hear from my relatives in Europe it can mess up your tissue and give you nasty nosebleeds. That's why I got vaccinated.

Obviously brains in Europe are not as robust as the local ones.

whatsup
27-10-2021, 04:53 PM
I don't think this is true ... I am just able to see the good as well as the bad while it appears you are suffering under some sort of mental block :) which clearly impacts on your otherwise quite well developed analytical capabilities.

For a start - if you would stop this childish labelling of our PM, then some more people might still take you seriously.

But anyway - we didn't talk about the three waters, and no - from what I have seen so far, I don't like the proposal. Just creating another expensive bureaucratic layer which the taxpayer needs to fork out for. However - this has nothing to do with the vaccination mandate.

I don't like the quite racist and xenophobe approach of our current government and neither that they are trying to push on us a plethora of policies they never have campaigned on.

They introduced three waters without asking the electorate and try to push this through against the wish of the people. They broke our immigration system under the pretence of Covid - and the xenophobe, arrogant and inhumane approach of our lazy and inept anti immigration minister is disgraceful at best.

Their race based policies on distributing political power as well as money based on the colour of once skin instead of based on need and merit is disgusting.

Clearly - they neither improved the housing situation (as they promised), nor child poverty (as they promised), but they broke a lot of things which did work before (not perfect, but better than now) on the way to get there. Our education system under Labour got much more expensive, but not a iota better. Our justice system is as broken as ever. Just throwing money at things does not work, but we knew that before, didn't we?

I assume we both can agree on above ... however, this still does not mean that there is anything wrong with the vaccination mandate and Jacinda's changed views on it. And while this well might impact on our nearer future ... I would see this particular item as having a positive impact.

Bp, As you well know " the left is a lie and everything they touch they FUC! " end of story. !!

ynot
27-10-2021, 05:25 PM
Doesn't make sense, if that person does regular testing there's no more risk than with vaccinated person who's not tested at all. Vaccine only decreases chance of transmission, it also doesn't have 100% efficiency, so some vaccinated people have no immunity. It's actually safer to have unvaccinated person regularly tested than vaccinated person not tested at all. Don't forget some people can be non symptomatic carriers.

Business can't fire a person for coming in sick with cold or flu, but you think it's ok to fire a person for not vaccinating? There's plenty of groups that could be included in your sentence "What if the rest of the staff walk out or resign because they're not happy alongside a xxxxxx worker?"

Mate, you are taking logic and common sense.
Sorry but reality does not cut it today in this new crazy world.
We need to be in a constant state of fear/turmoil, you know the story.
We all must buy the hype. Get with the program. Enough of this independent thinking. Nanny state knows best !

Logen Ninefingers
27-10-2021, 07:47 PM
Mate, you are taking logic and common sense.
Sorry but reality does not cut it today in this new crazy world.
We need to be in a constant state of fear/turmoil, you know the story.
We all must buy the hype. Get with the program. Enough of this independent thinking. Nanny state knows best !

Nanny state knows best !

—————

“Let’s do this! aye ‘Team of 5 million’. TV has taught me that COVID has been a bit of an egg this year, but on the plus side if we all do as we are told and support the ‘3 Waters’ reforms then our trout will be happy and undies can still be togs. We got this! Anyone who doesn’t support our government and Jacinda is a dangerous reactionary / racist / neo-liberal who is trying to stand on the way of our glorious neo-Marxist cultural revolution. So everyone please repeat after me: Be Kind and always remember that climate change is our nuclear free moment.”

ynot
27-10-2021, 07:57 PM
Nanny state knows best !

—————

“Let’s do this! aye ‘Team of 5 million’. TV has taught me that COVID has been a bit of an egg this year, but on the plus side if we all do as we are told and support the ‘3 Waters’ reforms then our trout will be happy and undies can still be togs. We got this! Anyone who doesn’t support our government and Jacinda is a dangerous reactionary / racist / neo-liberal who is trying to stand on the way of our glorious neo-Marxist cultural revolution. So everyone please repeat after me: Be Kind and always remember that climate change is our nuclear free moment.”

Hail Jacinda !

Logen Ninefingers
27-10-2021, 08:59 PM
‘While the group – ‘Sovereign Hīkoi of Truth, Bringing Righteous Outrage’ (SHOT BRO) – remained at a standstill at Mercer, several thousand people and a strong police presence gathered at Waitangi to meet the hīkoi at its planned finishing point.‘

Panda-NZ-
27-10-2021, 09:24 PM
"Climate change is this generations nuclear free moment"

Jacinda should take a lead from Germany's new government and lower the voting age to 16.

Panda-NZ-
27-10-2021, 09:46 PM
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/10/andrew-little-calls-out-bullsh-t-pricing-for-cystic-fibrosis-drug-trikafta-set-by-american-pharmaceutical-company.html

NZ should join pharmac with the australian equivalent to negotiate even better prices.

Let americans pay for this research stuff, they seem to like doing it.

Balance
28-10-2021, 08:29 AM
Breaking news.

Cindy has delivered COVID for Christmas to Christchurch well ahead of time.

South Islanders of the Labour variety must be rejoicing with unbridled joy? She has actually delivered something!

kiora
28-10-2021, 09:25 AM
Ouch
Who is going to pay for this?
"A third successive month of record imports has pushed New Zealand to a record trade deficit.

Statistics New Zealand said September imports - at $6.6 billion - outstripped exports ($4.4 billion) by some $2.2 billion. A record.

The import figure was up some $1.5 billion (30%) on the same month a year ago.

The exports figure was $387 million higher than a year ago.

The annual trade balance for the year ended September 2021 was a deficit of $4.1 billion."
https://www.interest.co.nz/business/112929/statistics-nz-says-september-was-third-record-month-row-imports-figure-reaching-66?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+28 +October+2021

kiora
28-10-2021, 09:28 AM
Exporters?
"Eighty-eight per cent of exporters surveyed said logistic costs had climbed for them, 86 per cent had faced delayed transport times and 57 per cent had been unable to get shipping space thanks to freight congestion. "
https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/10/26/nz-exporters-confident-of-survival-despite-pandemic/?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+28 +October+2021

SBQ
28-10-2021, 10:09 AM
Breaking news.

Cindy has delivered COVID for Christmas to Christchurch well ahead of time.

South Islanders of the Labour variety must be rejoicing with unbridled joy? She has actually delivered something!

Yep 2 local cases in Christchurch. COVID for everyone!!!!

dobby41
28-10-2021, 11:43 AM
Breaking news.

Cindy has delivered COVID for Christmas to Christchurch well ahead of time.

South Islanders of the Labour variety must be rejoicing with unbridled joy? She has actually delivered something!

I thought of you when I heard the news - you'll be so pleased now.
Maybe it will push up the vaccination rates - been lagging across the board for the last week.

Balance
28-10-2021, 12:21 PM
I thought of you when I heard the news - you'll be so pleased now.
Maybe it will push up the vaccination rates - been lagging across the board for the last week.

Not pleased but vindicated in my view that Cindy is clueless now that her only strategy to contain the virus, lockdown, is not working.

And indeed let’s hope the fear factor pushes vaccination rates up.

Toulouse - Luzern
28-10-2021, 12:32 PM
The amount of debt being piled up is a huge concern

TeslaGod
28-10-2021, 12:44 PM
The amount of debt being piled up is a huge concern

If we default our debt obligations/our credit rating gets lowered/there goes the economy/jobs/housing market/NZX.

(Worst case scenario only but they need to keep an eye on it)

dobby41
28-10-2021, 12:50 PM
Not pleased but vindicated in my view that Cindy is clueless now that her only strategy to contain the virus, lockdown, is not working.

And indeed let’s hope the fear factor pushes vaccination rates up.

So you're saying that you were silly enough to think that it wouldn't make its' way to the South Island?
Lockdown is working - not as well as it should if people followed the rules.
Level 3 means people can catch it via work or takeaways - there seems to be very little of that. It's spreading by people meeting up, indoors, when they shouldn't.

peetter
28-10-2021, 01:03 PM
So you're saying that you were silly enough to think that it wouldn't make its' way to the South Island?
Lockdown is working - not as well as it should if people followed the rules.
Level 3 means people can catch it via work or takeaways - there seems to be very little of that. It's spreading by people meeting up, indoors, when they shouldn't.

People follow rules. Auckland people literally do everything government mandated, masks, world leading vaccination rate, distancing. I live here and haven't left home for 3 months, like most of Aucklanders.

There was a couple of isolated incident of mostly crims and influencers, but most of them didn't even have anything to do with covid spread.

dobby41
28-10-2021, 01:28 PM
People follow rules. Auckland people literally do everything government mandated, masks, world leading vaccination rate, distancing. I live here and haven't left home for 3 months, like most of Aucklanders.

There was a couple of isolated incident of mostly crims and influencers, but most of them didn't even have anything to do with covid spread.

Most people follow the rules.
Same here in the Waikato.
There must be more than a couple of isolated incidents.

Most cases have spread via personal, indoor, contact. This was happening at Level 4 also.
There is very little spread via the workplace.

Most follow the rules - those who don't spoil it for the rest of us.

peetter
28-10-2021, 01:51 PM
Level 4 was so short that I call BS on personal transmission in breach of rules.

Also lvl 3 allows you personal contact, so again no breach of rules.

Balance
28-10-2021, 01:51 PM
So you're saying that you were silly enough to think that it wouldn't make its' way to the South Island?
Lockdown is working - not as well as it should if people followed the rules.
Level 3 means people can catch it via work or takeaways - there seems to be very little of that. It's spreading by people meeting up, indoors, when they shouldn't.

It is the height of naivety to believe and assume that all people will follow the rules when early in in this lockdown, people had already started breaching the rules! And it became worse & worse as the lockdown stretched on and on.

And Cindy is clueless as to what to do so she did nothing to contain that risk - so that's why it's COVID for Christmas as her gift to the South Islanders.

Panda-NZ-
28-10-2021, 02:10 PM
And Cindy is clueless as to what to do so she did nothing to contain that risk - so that's why it's COVID for Christmas as her gift to the South Islanders.

Do you post this much about the flu? That is what corona is now thanks to vaccines.

dobby41
28-10-2021, 02:26 PM
Level 4 was so short that I call BS on personal transmission in breach of rules.

Also lvl 3 allows you personal contact, so again no breach of rules.

How is it spreading then?

(L3 allows personal contact outside - not inside.)

Balance
28-10-2021, 02:57 PM
How is it spreading then?

(L3 allows personal contact outside - not inside.)

Everyone with half a brain knows how & why it is spreading.

The government knows only too well but for political reasons, will not share & circulate the information as it involves the underprivileged being identified as the biggest culprits in branching & ignoring the lockdown rules, and not getting vaccinated.

Panda-NZ-
28-10-2021, 03:05 PM
Everyone with half a brain knows how & why it is spreading.


So they are following your desired approach last year then.

I think we should open given new information. What's your position today?

dobby41
28-10-2021, 03:15 PM
Everyone with half a brain knows how & why it is spreading.

The government knows only too well but for political reasons, will not share & circulate the information as it involves the underprivileged being identified as the biggest culprits in branching & ignoring the lockdown rules, and not getting vaccinated.

Do tell so that all of us can be clear.

PS - I was asking peetter but you can't help yourself.

peetter
28-10-2021, 03:20 PM
How is it spreading then?

(L3 allows personal contact outside - not inside.)

Well Level 4 wasn't long enough to cover the incubation period of the first covid case so it's pretty easy to deduct how it spread. At level 3 there's a significant increase in workers from different bubbles intermingling. It's not a rocket science. I am sure if government actually published data they got from tracing, we'd find out most of the spread is through legitimate contacts. But I doubt we will ever see this kind of data, because that doesn't look good on them.

Anyway I am sure you'll still continue saying it's all a fault of rule breakers and the government is amazing, so let's just agree to disagree.

dobby41
28-10-2021, 03:57 PM
Well Level 4 wasn't long enough to cover the incubation period of the first covid case so it's pretty easy to deduct how it spread. At level 3 there's a significant increase in workers from different bubbles intermingling. It's not a rocket science. I am sure if government actually published data they got from tracing, we'd find out most of the spread is through legitimate contacts. But I doubt we will ever see this kind of data, because that doesn't look good on them.

Anyway I am sure you'll still continue saying it's all a fault of rule breakers and the government is amazing, so let's just agree to disagree.

Actually I won't say it was just from rule-breaking.
I'm trying to get my head around the spread.
Certainly, a lot of it in the Waikato is via rule-breakers - how else can it get from Te Awamutu to Otorohanga?
They said that there was little spread via the workplace (in Auckland).
There are few other legitimate ways for it to spread - there is not a lot of difference between L4 and L3 except takeaways and the workplace (ignoring the picnics outside because it was spreading in L3 before they came in). A lot of it has been via 'known contacts' - how do known contacts spread it if they aren't in contact?

I don't think it is a political thing but some people like to ascribe politics to everything - a tiredness of the lockdown and wanting someone to blame I suspect.

iceman
28-10-2021, 05:11 PM
Do you post this much about the flu? That is what corona is now thanks to vaccines.

Balance isn't locked up in his home for 12-14 weeks with the flu in the community