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Entrep
14-12-2021, 11:46 AM
Here's one for you to mull over
Jarrod Gilbert: Is gang violence in NZ the worst it's ever been?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jarrod-gilbert-is-gang-violence-in-nz-the-worst-its-ever-been/RZXL4PMDBEZNVRLJBILSGAPE6I/

Some anecdotal evidence that it was bad in the early 90s means the regular gun violence we seen now isn't that bad?

Toulouse - Luzern
14-12-2021, 12:16 PM
Todays Order Paper has the RMA Amendment Bill Third Reading as the second bill to be considered.
12 x 10 minute speeches allocated.
Everyone is of course entitled to their own view on this legislation.
IMHO it is clear evidence of the failure of successive Governments to satisfactorily address the housing issues of NZ.
IMHO It does nothing for affordability.
The economy, labour force growth, and wage growth are fundamental areas to improve.
No evidence that Grant Robertson and the PM et al can manage this effectively.
The buck is often passed to others eg RBNZ.
The Govt SNA approach seeks to end 180 years of private land ownership property rights in NZ.
They also intend to set aside our trusted NZ Justice System appeal rights re RMA and SNA.

Accepted COVID challenges are very significant.

Entrep
14-12-2021, 01:01 PM
Some anecdotal evidence that it was bad in the early 90s means the regular gun violence we seen now isn't that bad?

I guess it's also not surprising when the moronic Race Relations Commissioner is calling the Police racist. I mean wtf, no wonder the gangs don't respect them, their own Govt doesn't.

Balance
14-12-2021, 05:43 PM
Another housing fxxk up by Clueless Cindy but not to worry, more breeding of long term beneficiaries at the expense of taxpayers :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300477908/auditorgeneral-slams-emergency-housing-rentals-says-they-likely-drove-rents-higher

The damning report found the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) was paying several times the market rent for private rentals, which it was using for emergency housing stays.

It found these rents were so exorbitant that it was “likely the higher rates it paid for these properties distorted the rental market”.

Entrep
14-12-2021, 06:32 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-police-reveal-how-northland-checkpoints-will-operate/UOYXRB4OVMR2ZMIROJEPI2R7KI/


Police reveal how Northland checkpoints will operate

Good to see Hone finally got around to telling the cops how his checkpoints will work.

dobby41
14-12-2021, 06:46 PM
Brilliant. Only available to those silly enough to buy that dopey rag.

Not my problem!

Balance
14-12-2021, 06:54 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-police-reveal-how-northland-checkpoints-will-operate/UOYXRB4OVMR2ZMIROJEPI2R7KI/



Good to see Hone finally got around to telling the cops how his checkpoints will work.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1638824994242-IKBH4YDJOBSL05DM5K5N/Standing+Up.jpg?format=2500w

artemis
15-12-2021, 07:21 AM
Another housing fxxk up by Clueless Cindy but not to worry, more breeding of long term beneficiaries at the expense of taxpayers :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300477908/auditorgeneral-slams-emergency-housing-rentals-says-they-likely-drove-rents-higher

The damning report found the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) was paying several times the market rent for private rentals, which it was using for emergency housing stays.

It found these rents were so exorbitant that it was “likely the higher rates it paid for these properties distorted the rental market”.

Have not yet read the OAG report but it must have been a nightmare time for MSD staff. Hundreds in some level of homeless each month turning up on the literal doorstep. Many in Auckland where there were private rentals available (then and now) but landlords not willing to take on or keep possibly risky tenants when plenty of very good applicants were lined up.

What were MSD bosses to do? Write a letter to the Prime Minister saying - look what your policies have done. I'm sure they did just that, very politely of course.

Balance
15-12-2021, 08:23 AM
Have not yet read the OAG report but it must have been a nightmare time for MSD staff. Hundreds in some level of homeless each month turning up on the literal doorstep. Many in Auckland where there were private rentals available (then and now) but landlords not willing to take on or keep possibly risky tenants when plenty of very good applicants were lined up.

What were MSD bosses to do? Write a letter to the Prime Minister saying - look what your policies have done. I'm sure they did just that, very politely of course.

Here's Clueless Cindy's take on it:

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1619975923177-HQPNRC8TEX5MH07H6C4Z/Rodeo%281%29.jpg?format=2500w

Balance
15-12-2021, 02:40 PM
Revelations coming out of the OAG report that MSD is & has been paying $2,000 a week for rental properties normally renting for $450 to $550 per week.

Then, there’re landlords kicking undesirable tenants out due to the government’s tough tenancy rules on landlords who (tenants) then turn to emergency accommodation. And the landlords rent said same properties back to MSD at $2,000 a week!

It’s no wonder that the dept is spending $1m a day on emergency accommodation & housing.

There is not only no heed of getting value for taxpayers’ funds, there is no heed about MSD bidding up the rental levels out there.

And the minister in charge says their intentions are good so it’s all ok!!!!!

dobby41
15-12-2021, 04:17 PM
Revelations coming out of the OAG report that MSD is & has been paying $2,000 a week for rental properties normally renting for $450 to $550 per week.

Then, there’re landlords kicking undesirable tenants out due to the government’s tough tenancy rules on landlords who (tenants) then turn to emergency accommodation. And the landlords rent said same properties back to MSD at $2,000 a week!

It’s no wonder that the dept is spending $1m a day on emergency accommodation & housing.

There is not only no heed of getting value for taxpayers’ funds, there is no heed about MSD bidding up the rental levels out there.

And the minister in charge says their intentions are good so it’s all ok!!!!!

Has been paying rather than is.
At least they stopped this ridiculous practice (some time ago but that doesn't excuse it).
I really doubt that the poor practice bid rents up though.

As for landlords kicking undesirable tenants out - sensible ones never had them in the first place.
I like my assets to be looked after and would never take a punt - after all, there is a big pool so for the best houses take the best tenants.
Surely it is up to the tenant not to be undesirable?
In 20 years have never had to kick a tenant out.

artemis
15-12-2021, 06:55 PM
..... As for landlords kicking undesirable tenants out - sensible ones never had them in the first place.
I like my assets to be looked after and would never take a punt - after all, there is a big pool so for the best houses take the best tenants.
Surely it is up to the tenant not to be undesirable?
In 20 years have never had to kick a tenant out.

Situations change but until the recent past no-cause terminations were an option. So it was easy enough to terminate tenancies that were starting to have problems. So landlords could take a risk, and often the tenancy turned out just fine.

That has all changed, and while termination can still happen it is a drawn out process with a lot of very specific paperwork and even then in some cases a court hearing that could go either way. So risk assessment is sensibly carried out.

Balance
15-12-2021, 07:43 PM
Situations change but until the recent past no-cause terminations were an option. So it was easy enough to terminate tenancies that were starting to have problems. So landlords could take a risk, and often the tenancy turned out just fine.

That has all changed, and while termination can still happen it is a drawn out process with a lot of very specific paperwork and even then in some cases a court hearing that could go either way. So risk assessment is sensibly carried out.

This government led by a clueless leader (Cindy) is all about pronouncements, regulations and unexpected adverse consequences.

A government of excuses and race based policies, pro-criminals & pro-gangs with no idea how to deliver on any of the huge promises they made to get into power.

Only know how to spend billions of taxpayers’ funds & borrowed monies with no accountability or transparency.

But smart enough to employ hundreds of spin artists and pay bribes to MSM to look the other way.

Disgusting human beings in government.

Balance
15-12-2021, 09:47 PM
Another useless incompetent minister - Faafoi, Poto, Davis and now, Sepuloni. And this one lies!

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018824687/sepuloni-pleads-ignorance-over-msd-spending-on-private-rentals

A report from the Auditor-General has found the government had paid $37 million to use private rentals for emergency housing without any checks.

The minister is pleading ignorance.

Sepuloni told Checkpoint she was maintaining she did not learn about MSD funds being spent on private rentals until July 2020, despite an email in May 2020 from the biggest supplier of private accommodation that was sent to the prime minister and appears to have been forwarded to Sepuloni.

The email from Silver Fern Properties was obtained by Checkpoint under the OIA.

Balance
15-12-2021, 10:48 PM
A government of liars.

Q : How can you tell when Cindy & Mahuta are lying?

A : When they open their mouths.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/458005/three-waters-consultation-was-in-good-faith-mahuta

Papers released last month revealed Cabinet had agreed in June to pursue an "all-in legislated" reform strategy, knowing that achieving the benefit of reforms would, in practice, require eliminating the possibility of opting out.

SBQ
15-12-2021, 11:02 PM
Another useless incompetent minister - Faafoi, Poto, Davis and now, Sepuloni. And this one lies!

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018824687/sepuloni-pleads-ignorance-over-msd-spending-on-private-rentals

A report from the Auditor-General has found the government had paid $37 million to use private rentals for emergency housing without any checks.

The minister is pleading ignorance.

Sepuloni told Checkpoint she was maintaining she did not learn about MSD funds being spent on private rentals until July 2020, despite an email in May 2020 from the biggest supplier of private accommodation that was sent to the prime minister and appears to have been forwarded to Sepuloni.

The email from Silver Fern Properties was obtained by Checkpoint under the OIA.

Yah I heard about this one on talk radio today. No accountability and absolutely clueless about the situation. But don't you worry, there's no shortage of fools that would never care to wonder how horrible the Labour Party is today and will simply forget, come election time to vote for them again.

Blue Skies
15-12-2021, 11:33 PM
Incredibly disappointing to see Grant Robertson on the news tonight after agreeing house prices will fall next year, hastily adding but they're expected to rise again later.
Sheer political expediency. Grant looking too scared of losing votes to seriously address the housing affordability crisis.
Or maybe they are seriously worried about a crash.

Here we are spending $1 million per day paying for emergency housing, kids growing up in motels, its outrageous, & this from a Labour govt who promised to fix the problem.
House prices need to come back, just shelling out increasing amounts every year for emergency housing is no solution.

Here we have the most unaffordable house prices in the OECD with huge household indebtedness constraining other spending & investment in productive parts of the economy.

Balance
16-12-2021, 10:38 AM
https://thebfd.co.nz/2021/12/16/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/

Is Clueless Cindy really that evil?

Excerpt : "The real evil was her politicisation of the Police force, coupled with her draconian lockdown rules, the creation of a Stasi-like snitch culture, creating a situation where mates are turned against mates, families are splintered and rent apart by the medical apartheid she has implemented; and her scapegoating, demonising and radicalising the unvaccinated and destroying social cohesion with her divisive, nasty, evil policies."

Balance
16-12-2021, 11:02 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/gdp-delta-slams-economy-but-not-as-badly-as-first-feared/5NLFSQMCDXN7P5TAFOFJ5Z3U34/

GDP suffered biggest drop since data began in 1986.

So despite borrowing $1 billion a week and accelerated government spending (mostly wasteful), NZ economy has suffered a black eye courtesy of Clueless Cindy’s confused delta strategy.

dobby41
16-12-2021, 03:19 PM
Situations change but until the recent past no-cause terminations were an option. So it was easy enough to terminate tenancies that were starting to have problems. So landlords could take a risk, and often the tenancy turned out just fine.

That has all changed, and while termination can still happen it is a drawn out process with a lot of very specific paperwork and even then in some cases a court hearing that could go either way. So risk assessment is sensibly carried out.

In the case of termination for not paying rent (the most common issue I hear) the process is much easier - late 3 times in 90 days and they can be gone.
Previously you issue a notice and at the last moment they pay - they continue to do this ad infinitum.

No landlord I talked to ever gave someone a chance unless they had to (unable to rent to anyone else).
They have always done their risk assessment.

dobby41
16-12-2021, 03:28 PM
Economy expected to return to surplus and debt to be lower than expected
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/grant-robertsons-6b-christmas-present/ZLZOUH23C6OCLTKXADEDWUZZWM/

Government debt will fall to just 30.2 per cent of GDP in 2026.
Faster than National's plan (36% by 2033/34).

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/thomas-coughlan-two-political-fault-lines-open-for-2022/YX4AZ6MZMDKJ7HM3XOH3NSSFBY/

Sgt Pepper
16-12-2021, 04:20 PM
Watching the protestors at Parliament today, a couple of observations.
I only counted two of the motorcyclists wearing helmets , despite the law mandating that you must.

1.They had a Police escort, so I assume the Police are not interested in enforcing the law.

2.How can so many people have the time to take time off work to do this.

End of rant

Balance
16-12-2021, 05:07 PM
Economy expected to return to surplus and debt to be lower than expected
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/grant-robertsons-6b-christmas-present/ZLZOUH23C6OCLTKXADEDWUZZWM/

Government debt will fall to just 30.2 per cent of GDP in 2026.
Faster than National's plan (36% by 2033/34).

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/thomas-coughlan-two-political-fault-lines-open-for-2022/YX4AZ6MZMDKJ7HM3XOH3NSSFBY/

Same forecasters who had it wrong wrong wrong last year.

dobby41
16-12-2021, 05:33 PM
Same forecasters who had it wrong wrong wrong last year.

True but they have consistently forecast on the pessimist side so the outcome should be even better :t_up:
It all depends on whether you see the glass as half full or half empty. We know that when it comes to Labour you will never see anything good.
I'm just providing the alternative view to balance things up.

Blue Skies
16-12-2021, 06:51 PM
Watching the protestors at Parliament today, a couple of observations.
I only counted two of the motorcyclists wearing helmets , despite the law mandating that you must.

1.They had a Police escort, so I assume the Police are not interested in enforcing the law.

2.How can so many people have the time to take time off work to do this.

End of rant


Understandable & feeling the frustration as am sure the police are.
However, there's no action police could take which would not produce a worse outcome (& it's not that serious since they're crawling along at walking pace)
Imagine the outcome of a group of police officers wading in & arresting those guys & taking their bikes off them.
Would start a riot ( protesters already pumped up & just need a spark to start a clash) endangering a lot of people.
Better the police keep the protesters reasonably calm & corralled, let them have their rant & go home, rather than the chaos we see with the running battles in Europe, the US & Australia.
Got to look at the outcomes of policing responses & what you really want to achieve.

On 2nd point, agreed, on the whole they do look a pretty unemployable, uneducated bunch.

Balance
16-12-2021, 07:40 PM
True but they have consistently forecast on the pessimist side so the outcome should be even better :t_up:
It all depends on whether you see the glass as half full or half empty. We know that when it comes to Labour you will never see anything good.
I'm just providing the alternative view to balance things up.

Key economic numbers (for year ended June 2022 vs Budget 2021 forecasts)

GDP (annual) 0.8 pct vs 3.2 pct

Inflation 5.1 pct vs 1.7 pct

Unemployment 3.2 pct vs 4.0 pct

House inflation 10.4 pct vs 0.9 pct

Great forecasters indeed. Cannot even get the broad trend correct!

Balance
16-12-2021, 07:51 PM
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1636064968113-YAL297KTWCQKLKTY2HZN/Book+Fair.jpg?format=2500w

BDL
17-12-2021, 03:57 PM
www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300480986/northland-cops-arrest-six-after-head-hunters-black-power-shootings

Jacinda's gangs. This country is turning into one big gang/drug BS.

The gangs consist of mostly Maori. Hard to respect this violent primitive culture no matter how hard it is pushed in NZ.

Panda-NZ-
17-12-2021, 07:26 PM
Incredibly disappointing to see Grant Robertson on the news tonight after agreeing house prices will fall next year, hastily adding but they're expected to rise again later.
Sheer political expediency. Grant looking too scared of losing votes to seriously address the housing affordability crisis.
Or maybe they are seriously worried about a crash.

Here we are spending $1 million per day paying for emergency housing, kids growing up in motels, its outrageous, & this from a Labour govt who promised to fix the problem.
House prices need to come back, just shelling out increasing amounts every year for emergency housing is no solution.

Here we have the most unaffordable house prices in the OECD with huge household indebtedness constraining other spending & investment in productive parts of the economy.

Sounds a bit socialist but how about a higher minimum wage for Auckland (creates an incentive to move the low value work out and provide workers there with some more dignity).

Though national would probably use it as a justification to lower it in our other cities so maybe dont go there.

Baa_Baa
17-12-2021, 07:59 PM
Sounds a bit socialist but how about a higher minimum wage for Auckland (creates an incentive to move low value work out and provide workers there with rather more dignity).

Though national would probably use it as a justification to lower it in our other cities so maybe dont go there.

Where did the barely literate grammar murdering like a second or third language Panda go to? Who are you, the new Panda?

Panda-NZ-
17-12-2021, 08:05 PM
I'm a graduate of english language at one of Nationals dodgy education providers.

Hehe only kidding. :)

davflaws
17-12-2021, 10:21 PM
Hard to respect this violent primitive culture no matter how hard it is pushed in NZ.

I don't think you are trying hard enough - in fact, I don't think you are trying at all.

fungus pudding
18-12-2021, 12:02 AM
I don't think you are trying hard enough - in fact, I don't think you are trying at all.

You shouldn't have to 'try hard' to respect something.

fungus pudding
20-12-2021, 02:33 PM
Xmas decorations

13333

davflaws
20-12-2021, 04:22 PM
Xmas decorations

13333

I'd be a bit careful if I were you and shared your political views. Jacinda was supported by more than half the country.

Remember Hillary and her "basket of deplorables" comment - (arguably) cost her the election and inflicted Trump on the world!

fungus pudding
20-12-2021, 04:42 PM
I'd be a bit careful if I were you and shared your political views. Jacinda was supported by more than half the country.

Remember Hillary and her "basket of deplorables" comment - (arguably) cost her the election and inflicted Trump on the world!

Thanks so much for the warning. I'll be super cautious. And congratulations for being the only person in the entire world who knows my political views.

dobby41
20-12-2021, 05:01 PM
Thanks so much for the warning. I'll be super cautious. And congratulations for being the only person in the entire world who knows my political views.

Do you not know your own views as well?
So davflaws is one of only 2?

fungus pudding
20-12-2021, 05:33 PM
Do you not know your own views as well?
So davflaws is one of only 2?

You could be the only person in the world who thinks I know my own mind.

davflaws
20-12-2021, 06:01 PM
You could be the only person in the world who thinks I know my own mind.

Walks like a duck -quacks like a duck - bang!

Bill Smith
20-12-2021, 08:11 PM
I'd be a bit careful if I were you and shared your political views. Jacinda was supported by more than half the country.

Remember Hillary and her "basket of deplorables" comment - (arguably) cost her the election and inflicted Trump on the world!

So ardern is going to phone coster and get him to find and punish FP?

fungus pudding
20-12-2021, 08:41 PM
So ardern is going to phone coster and get him to find and punish FP?

That's what terrifies me.:scared:

davflaws
20-12-2021, 10:35 PM
So ardern is going to phone coster and get him to find and punish FP?

No - but perhaps some (maybe a lot) of people who supported the present Govt will feel attacked and demeaned and a tad more likely to regard the right as arrogant and self entitled - and so will be more forgiving of Labour's mistakes.

fungus pudding
21-12-2021, 07:47 AM
No - but perhaps some (maybe a lot) of people who supported the present Govt will feel attacked and demeaned and a tad more likely to regard the right as arrogant and self entitled - and so will be more forgiving of Labour's mistakes.

I think you're on to something there. Thank-you so much for the warning. I wonder if you could pop around to my place and check out the jokes in the Xmas crackers before I risk handing them out this year?

davflaws
21-12-2021, 08:17 AM
I think you're on to something there. Thank-you so much for the warning. I wonder if you could pop around to my place and check out the jokes in the Xmas crackers before I risk handing them out this year?

Sarcasm is most effective when it is witty rather than heavy handed. I think you should stick to nitpicking and pedantry.

fungus pudding
21-12-2021, 09:33 AM
Sarcasm is most effective when it is witty rather than heavy handed. I think you should stick to nitpicking and pedantry.

Good advice; thanks. I will brush up on both those skills. I wasn't aware you appreciated my literary talents.

davflaws
21-12-2021, 07:34 PM
Good advice; thanks. I will brush up on both those skills. I wasn't aware you appreciated my literary talents.

You really do know lots more than the rest of us about English grammar and usage. I apologise for and withdraw my snarky comment about nitpicking pedantry.

BDL
22-12-2021, 07:01 PM
How come the Green party, under Labour, care more about race based politics than environment issues?

Sold their souls down the racist creek along with Jacinda and the Maori party.

BDL
22-12-2021, 08:05 PM
I see Mahoota has changed her tune on "taniwha and dragon" story line, regarding China.

Told by five eyes to get into line I suspect.

iceman
22-12-2021, 10:13 PM
How come the Green party, under Labour, care more about race based politics than environment issues?

Sold their souls down the racist creek along with Jacinda and the Maori party.

It’s certainly strayed far away from the credible environmental party once lead by Rod & Jeanette, both devoted & genuine environmentalists.

Balance
23-12-2021, 07:56 PM
Who is really running (ruining) NZ :

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1640045900608-C3KLVP6AU2G0VNQSH571/glove+puppet.jpg?format=2500w

BlackPeter
24-12-2021, 02:15 PM
Anybody can help me to find the right words?

Personally I find it revolting for our government to lock Kiwis out of the country (many in very difficult circumstances) but allows instead rich foreigners to get into the country.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/24/locked-out-new-zealanders-outraged-as-visa-scheme-for-rich-foreigners-resumes

Is this really the government which promotes being fair and being kind? Tell this the families who are thanks to our MIQ lottery separated for already up to two years, tell this the Kiwis who have lost their jobs or are without visas in some foreign country because our anti immigration minister can't move his fat ar*e for them.

Amazing however how fast he can move for some rich foreigners ... sort of wondering whether he is invested in some sort of kick back?

Joshuatree
24-12-2021, 05:31 PM
I"INZ is yet to decide on a further 816 applications across both categories. The visas add up to a financial commitment of at least $548m."

Why not,keep them going it's good for NZ,a small allocation in the scheme of things spread out.

BlackPeter
24-12-2021, 07:52 PM
I"INZ is yet to decide on a further 816 applications across both categories. The visas add up to a financial commitment of at least $548m."

Why not,keep them going it's good for NZ,a small allocation in the scheme of things spread out.

In normal times I would agree, but coming from a government which didn't move an inch to get our own people back or to reunite Kiwi families who trusted their commitments?

Lets first get the people back who are left by our government hanging out to dry for no fault of their own, before we allow foreign rich pricks to buy their way into the country competing in MIQ with our own people, shall we?

iceman
25-12-2021, 04:09 AM
I"INZ is yet to decide on a further 816 applications across both categories. The visas add up to a financial commitment of at least $548m."

Why not,keep them going it's good for NZ,a small allocation in the scheme of things spread out.

You´re showing your true colours, just like Jacinda does by booking a wedding venue owned by a US hedge fund manager billionaire !. Let the billionaires in while tens or hundreds of thousands of Kiwi families have been going through agony for close to 2 years with no end in sight. Like the little 11 year old boy unhappily living with his mother in the US. The parents have agreed to him being with his dad in NZ, but have failed for over 12 months of crazy MIQ lotteries to get that poor little boy back to his home country and his dad. Be kind !!

Blue Skies
25-12-2021, 10:38 AM
We've been surprised by seeing several sons & daughters of well off friends, people in their mid 20's with v good jobs overseas, under absolutely no financial or health stress, fly home for short Christmas holidays.
They've gained & taken places in the lottery system for MIQ which could otherwise be used by some of the desperate Kiwi families & individuals stuck overseas & are under severe stress, financial or health wise, who can't get visa extensions, who have children they need to enrol in school here, who are paying mortgages on houses they have bought here, who need to come home to see dying relatives, etc

It seems so unfair. Surely they should have some sort of priority system for MIQ based on need ?

iceman
25-12-2021, 10:48 AM
We've been surprised by seeing several sons & daughters of well off friends, people in their mid 20's with v good jobs overseas, under absolutely no financial or health stress, fly home for short Christmas holidays.
They've gained & taken places in the lottery system for MIQ which could otherwise be used by some of the desperate Kiwi families & individuals stuck overseas & are under severe stress, financial or health wise, who can't get visa extensions, who have children they need to enrol in school here, who are paying mortgages on houses they have bought here, who need to come home to see dying relatives, etc

It seems so unfair. Surely they should have some sort of priority system for MIQ based on need ?

Agree. But sadly the whole system is a complete farce and unfit for purpose

Joshuatree
25-12-2021, 05:52 PM
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/12-11-2021/nicky-hager-my-message-to-friends-who-joined-this-weeks-protest

Bjauck
26-12-2021, 07:08 AM
We've been surprised by seeing several sons & daughters of well off friends, people in their mid 20's with v good jobs overseas, under absolutely no financial or health stress, fly home for short Christmas holidays.
They've gained & taken places in the lottery system for MIQ which could otherwise be used by some of the desperate Kiwi families & individuals stuck overseas & are under severe stress, financial or health wise, who can't get visa extensions, who have children they need to enrol in school here, who are paying mortgages on houses they have bought here, who need to come home to see dying relatives, etc

It seems so unfair. Surely they should have some sort of priority system for MIQ based on need ?
The latest in the list of unfairness.

The state MIQ system is unfair and unfit for purpose.
NZ Housing is unfair and broken.
The state health system is underfunded with an unfair medical/accident dichotomy.

fungus pudding
26-12-2021, 08:18 AM
We've been surprised by seeing several sons & daughters of well off friends, people in their mid 20's with v good jobs overseas, under absolutely no financial or health stress, fly home for short Christmas holidays.
They've gained & taken places in the lottery system for MIQ which could otherwise be used by some of the desperate Kiwi families & individuals stuck overseas & are under severe stress, financial or health wise, who can't get visa extensions, who have children they need to enrol in school here, who are paying mortgages on houses they have bought here, who need to come home to see dying relatives, etc

It seems so unfair. Surely they should have some sort of priority system for MIQ based on need ?

What are places in the queue based on - other than the luck of the draw?

iceman
26-12-2021, 10:39 AM
What are places in the queue based on - other than the luck of the draw?

I don't think the Environment Minister and other Ministers, including Mahuta with her very large entourage were just "luck of the draw". There's some murky ****e going on with this whole MIQ madness, much of which we are kept in the dark about.

fungus pudding
26-12-2021, 10:55 AM
I don't think the Environment Minister and other Ministers, including Mahuta with her very large entourage were just "luck of the draw". There's some murky ****e going on with this whole MIQ madness, much of which we are kept in the dark about.

Neither do I - so what are the criteria that allow a VIP to by-pass the hoi-polloi?

BlackPeter
26-12-2021, 06:14 PM
The latest in the list of unfairness.

The state MIQ system is unfair and unfit for purpose.
NZ Housing is unfair and broken.
The state health system is underfunded with an unfair medical/accident dichotomy.

And don't forget the NZ education system. While we were once (in the 1960íes) pretty much at the Top of the list of OECD countries with the best readers / writers und best math achievers - an unholy coalition of National and Labour managed to get us within 5 decades or so into mediocracy. Not too many OECD countries still behind us in the PISA reports ...

This is clearly not fair - we throw more money than ever at an education system which is by now in return turning out more and more mediocre prepared students (and some of the worst prepared in the first world).

Both Labour as well as National have been a disgrace looking at running down our education system (National by underfunding it and Labour by throwing money at it instead of improving it) ... but hey, if anybody thought that it couldn't get worse after the "tomorrows school reform" under an education minister called David Lange ... today's Labour clearly demonstrates that they can make it worse ... "Let's do it"!

Panda-NZ-
26-12-2021, 08:26 PM
NZ Housing is unfair and broken.

If the accomodation supplement was removed rents would go down.

A wierd and expensive policy from its inception like sir bill's proposed 30k home buying grant in 2017.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96687322/national-to-double-home-start-grant-for-existing-houses

artemis
27-12-2021, 07:13 AM
If the accomodation supplement was removed rents would go down.

A wierd and expensive policy from its inception .....

Would rents go down though? Maybe, but if that leads to less supply then it would not take long for landlords to preferentially select tenants who can afford to pay the asking rent. Meanwhile, what do unsuccessful applicants do? Some will apply for social housing where the average household subsidy from taxpayers is 3x the AS.

In any case the AS is not going to be removed any time soon. Just not practical politically. Could be tweaked though - has been in the past.

When the AS was introduced it applied to all rentals (and owner occupied homes), regardless of ownership, putting all rental households on the same footing. When social housing was removed from the scheme and moved to much more generous income related rents the rental market became and remains skewed.

Bjauck
27-12-2021, 09:35 AM
And don't forget the NZ education system. While we were once (in the 1960íes) pretty much at the Top of the list of OECD countries with the best readers / writers und best math achievers - an unholy coalition of National and Labour managed to get us within 5 decades or so into mediocracy. Not too many OECD countries still behind us in the PISA reports ...

This is clearly not fair - we throw more money than ever at an education system which is by now in return turning out more and more mediocre prepared students (and some of the worst prepared in the first world).

Both Labour as well as National have been a disgrace looking at running down our education system (National by underfunding it and Labour by throwing money at it instead of improving it) ... but hey, if anybody thought that it couldn't get worse after the "tomorrows school reform" under an education minister called David Lange ... today's Labour clearly demonstrates that they can make it worse ... "Let's do it"! My list of unfair and unfit aspects is not exhaustive.

Although about 6 year old now, NZ ranks alongside or better than most European countries with respect to the OECD PISA comparative assessment scores. So, perhaps in a list I may put education further down. However it may be an example that money thrown at a problem can actually make it worse!

Interestingly, NZ performed consistently better than Australia (and consistently worse than Canada) in those 2015 PISA rankings.

https://ourworldindata.org/quality-of-education

Edit: I found the 2018 PISA data. NZ still has above average performance in all subjects tested.

(PDF file)
https://www.oecd.org/pisa/publications/PISA2018_CN_NZL.pdf

Bjauck
27-12-2021, 09:40 AM
If the accomodation supplement was removed rents would go down.

A wierd and expensive policy from its inception like sir bill's proposed 30k home buying grant in 2017.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96687322/national-to-double-home-start-grant-for-existing-houses I have to wonder whether it acted as a subsidy for residential property investors and helped inflate house prices even more as a result. Perhaps a way for the state to avoid the provision of more social housing?

fungus pudding
27-12-2021, 09:51 AM
I have to wonder whether it acted as a subsidy for residential property investors and helped inflate house prices even more as a result.

Of course it did. Subsidies never land where they are intended.

artemis
27-12-2021, 11:10 AM
I have to wonder whether it acted as a subsidy for residential property investors and helped inflate house prices even more as a result. Perhaps a way for the state to avoid the provision of more social housing?

If that was the case then it would have been evident from pretty much the outset of the AS some 30 years ago. It wasn't, though there was a peak in the HPI (% change) around 2002 and a drop in 2008. And another peak starting early 2020 and rising at an unprecedented rate, though quarterly data from RBNZ only seems to be available until March 2021.

High level data so indicative only, but official.

Bjauck
27-12-2021, 05:24 PM
If that was the case then it would have been evident from pretty much the outset of the AS some 30 years ago. It wasn't, though there was a peak in the HPI (% change) around 2002 and a drop in 2008. And another peak starting early 2020 and rising at an unprecedented rate, though quarterly data from RBNZ only seems to be available until March 2021.

High level data so indicative only, but official.
I am not sure why it should be obvious ab initio as it is only one of the factors - and certainly not the most important factor - that have influenced (up and down) NZ house prices. They are now so expensive with respect to incomes as the result of many factors.

artemis
27-12-2021, 06:48 PM
I am not sure why it should be obvious ab initio as it is only one of the factors - and certainly not the most important factor - that have influenced (up and down) NZ house prices. They are now so expensive with respect to incomes as the result of many factors.

Agree it is not the most important factor by any means and in fact the data I mentioned supports that. However you raised a question on the effect of the AS on inflated house prices - for quite a chunk of the period from inception of the AS changes in the HPI annual % were generally small. More recently house prices have shot away and reasons for that have been well traversed in the media. AFAIK the AS has not been identified as a major reason.

Bjauck
28-12-2021, 09:15 AM
Agree it is not the most important factor by any means and in fact the data I mentioned supports that. However you raised a question on the effect of the AS on inflated house prices - for quite a chunk of the period from inception of the AS changes in the HPI annual % were generally small. More recently house prices have shot away and reasons for that have been well traversed in the media. AFAIK the AS has not been identified as a major reason. I said that AS may have been a factor not a major factor. In many countries during the same period house prices have had longer periods of static or declining values.

However I do understand there have been various policies contributing to residential housing inflation, and these are jealously defended by some. After all many NZers have so much more invested in residential housing, and have often derived handsome gains, compared with NZers investment in companies on the comparatively small capitalisation NZ stock exchange. Political parties seeking office are very aware of this.

davflaws
28-12-2021, 12:19 PM
I am really enjoying Balance's holiday. I hope he is too.

dobby41
28-12-2021, 12:38 PM
I am really enjoying Balance's holiday. I hope he is too.

So am I.
I was expecting him to mention another Govt policy failure - the 'Covid for Xmas' one.
So little spread - obviously a failure! :D

tim23
28-12-2021, 02:30 PM
Of course it did. Subsidies never land where they are intended.

Unusually I agree with you all the way on this.

Balance
31-12-2021, 11:27 AM
Some NZers following the Mistress Of Spin :

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1627811897077-SEA1YCVNXW4GRBHRXPHO/last+words.jpg?format=2500w

Joshuatree
31-12-2021, 09:41 PM
Bad Loser:t_up:

fungus pudding
01-01-2022, 08:51 AM
Far out, Chris Hipkins walked out of the bush so that means he's a wonderfully competent minister. The puke-making Labour / Leftist propaganda machine (=the NZ media) and Labour's on-line marxist / unionist army have been going ga-ga over Hipkins in a way that is reminiscent of the phoney 'Jacindamania' that was rammed down our throats in 2017.

The other coordinated NZ media (=Labour / Leftist propaganda machine) and Labour's on-line marxist / unionist campaign has been to attack Chris Bishop and David Seymour at every turn. They must have decided that these are the two threats coming at them from the Right so the boot is going in, and of course the media and unions have huge financial resources at their disposal to carry out their attack.

At the end of the day a DJ has come into this country 3 times as an 'essential worker' while genuine essential workers & Kiwi's stranded overseas cannot get a look in. The response from the media and on-line marxist / unionist army is to gush over Hipkins and attack Bishop and Seymour. It's all a pathetic smokescreen in run desperate interference for this teflon government.

The Left in this country will burn in hell for their non-stop marxist brainwashing of the NZ Public.

Some reports claim the Pope recently declared there is no such place or thing as hell. In the most unlikely event I have some sort of religous conversion, I'm joining his mob.

https://www.vox.com/2018/3/30/17179952/pope-francis-hell-vatican-interview-scalfari-italian

He also gave some advice for a happy marriage.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-26/pope-s-3-key-words-for-a-marriage-please-thanks-sorry

It's about time he published his own version of The Junior Woodchucks' Manual.

Joshuatree
01-01-2022, 02:06 PM
‘Bad loser’ - the Left enjoy a laugh at the fact they have the public in the palm of their hand via their control of the media and their on-line presence. Inevitably there will be a backlash at some stage, so enjoy your woke takeover while it lasts.

Spin whinger of the day ,get happy while you are here.

Panda-NZ-
01-01-2022, 02:49 PM
‘Bad loser’ - the Left enjoy a laugh at the fact they have the public in the palm of their hand via their control of the media and their on-line presence. Inevitably there will be a backlash at some stage, so enjoy your woke takeover while it lasts.

We're all happy rather than angry though.

Anger is at the core of what motivates a conservative. That and fear. These are not really helpful emotions.

Balance
01-01-2022, 04:19 PM
We're all happy rather than angry though.

Anger is at the core of what motivates a conservative. That and fear. These are not really helpful emotions.

And on cue, out comes the lying & shameless Labour Party shill.

Spare us your lies in 2022.

Where’s your link that Luxon paid no tax?

And who created Whanau Ora to attract Maori votes?

BlackPeter
01-01-2022, 07:20 PM
And on cue, out comes the lying & shameless Labour Party shill.

Spare us your lies in 2022.

Where’s your link that Luxon paid no tax?

And who created Whanau Ora to attract Maori votes?

Quite sad post - and this has nothing to do with the political views of Panda ... its all about you.

Are you still able to see the irony and the hypocrisy in your personal attack on him?

Balance
01-01-2022, 08:08 PM
Quite sad post - and this has nothing to do with the political views of Panda ... its all about you.

Are you still able to see the irony and the hypocrisy in your personal attack on him?

You suffer fools and liars?

I don’t but you are most welcome to.

Panda-NZ-
02-01-2022, 01:33 AM
Some reports claim the Pope recently declared there is no such place or thing as hell. In the most unlikely event I have some sort of religous conversion, I'm joining his mob.

https://www.vox.com/2018/3/30/17179952/pope-francis-hell-vatican-interview-scalfari-italian

Would Earth be in the running?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Australian_bushfire_season

iceman
03-01-2022, 10:35 PM
Now professors Hendy & Wiles, the outspoken and social media addicted duo, has taken their employer Auckland University to court demanding better personal protection due to threats they’ve received (unjustifiable to level threats at people).
Auckland Uni suggest they limit their comments and social media exposure as it isn’t required from their employer. But in their submission the professors say they’ve been requested to provide public feedback by the PM’s office.
So the PM is now picking academics to suit her agenda and asks them to keep the propaganda going. They are now highly political and have lost all credibility as academics. They should be on the PM’s payroll.

Panda-NZ-
03-01-2022, 10:45 PM
They are now highly political and have lost all credibility as academics.


Better to have Boris johnsons health minister or scott morrison fronting rather than experts?

Hmmm how did that turn out.

iceman
03-01-2022, 11:51 PM
Better to have Boris johnsons health minister or scott morrison fronting rather than experts?

Hmmm how did that turn out.

You completely missed the point.
Anyway, not exactly like NZ politicians haven’t been fronting with their near daily sermons from the pulpit of truth

BlackPeter
04-01-2022, 09:10 AM
... They are now highly political and have lost all credibility as academics. ...

Do you have any evidence for this statement?

Just kidding.

You know yourself that above is at best your personal view .... and this would be sad.

While some people might disagree with their opinions and recommendations and while no doubt some people would prefer a less or a more cautious approach, I can't remember any of these two stating incorrect facts.

Would you like to enlarge on why you personally think they lost all academical credibility?

Maybe its not the two professors who lost their credibility?

Bjauck
04-01-2022, 09:11 AM
Now professors Hendy & Wiles, the outspoken and social media addicted duo, has taken their employer Auckland University to court demanding better personal protection due to threats they’ve received (unjustifiable to level threats at people).
Auckland Uni suggest they limit their comments and social media exposure as it isn’t required from their employer. But in their submission the professors say they’ve been requested to provide public feedback by the PM’s office.
So the PM is now picking academics to suit her agenda and asks them to keep the propaganda going. They are now highly political and have lost all credibility as academics. They should be on the PM’s payroll. AU shouldn't pick up the security tab for any requests emanating from government. It sounds like they should be on the PM's Office payroll too.

iceman
04-01-2022, 09:50 AM
Do you have any evidence for this statement?

Just kidding.

You know yourself that above is at best your personal view .... and this would be said.

While some people might disagree with their opinions and recommendations and while no doubt smome people would prefer a less or a more cautious approach, I can't remember any of these two stating incorrect facts.

Would you like to enlarge on why you personally think they lost all academical credibility?

Maybe its not the two professors who lost their credibility?

Personally I think Hendy lost all credibility a long time ago with all his alarmist predictions, hardly any that have been close to the mark and receiving many millions of dollars from Government to his private business for his endless "work" for them.
Like mid November 21 when he predicted 300 daily cases about to hit, the huge numbers of deaths he has forecasted and on and on it goes. I'm not going to search for numerous links. My internet is far too slow for that. Of course you are correct, when I post and say what I think, it is my personal opinion, just like you and everyone else.

Wiles lost credibility when she was busy on her social media telling everyone to follow the rules but then go to the beach with a friend herself during lockdown, in a clear breach of the rules.

It is also my view that an academic employed and who's salary is paid by Auckland University should not be taking orders from the PM's office and ignoring their employer's request to reduce the commentary, which is not part of their job description. But maybe you think this is OK. I don't. They should both be on the PM's payroll if they're taking instructions from there. I'd have no problem with it if their employer was the PM's office.

Not so long ago we had a few scientists and academics sign a letter objecting to maori tales being given equal standing to conventional science teachings in our schools. Most of them were shut up, demoted or moved on. The Government obviously didn't like it. Another example of Government deciding which academics & scientists should be allowed to speak up.

fungus pudding
04-01-2022, 09:55 AM
Do you have any evidence for this statement?

Just kidding.

You know yourself that above is at best your personal view .... and this would be said.

While some people might disagree with their opinions and recommendations and while no doubt smome people would prefer a less or a more cautious approach, I can't remember any of these two stating incorrect facts.


Of course not. There is no such thing.

BlackPeter
04-01-2022, 10:49 AM
Personally I think Hendy lost all credibility a long time ago with all his alarmist predictions, hardly any that have been close to the mark and receiving many millions of dollars from Government to his private business for his endless "work" for them.
Like mid November 21 when he predicted 300 daily cases about to hit, the huge numbers of deaths he has forecasted and on and on it goes.

...


Did he? The closest I could find (and announced by Ashley Bloomfield) was 200 cases (based on modelling) per day:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/11/covid-19-two-auckland-high-schools-temporarily-closed-due-to-cases.html


7:45pm - There are 53 COVID-19 cases in hospital, with an average age of 47 and three people in intensive care - but new modelling predicts that near the end of November, we'll be hitting 200 cases a day and 150 people could be in hospital.


So - it was not 300 but 200 cases predicted by modelling. Actually - I just checked the daily number of infections we had towards end of November in NZ. The seven day average was plateauing around 200 cases per day.

So - and you are flaming him for providing an absolutly correct estimate based on modelling? Makes one pretty speechless, doesn't it. What did you wanted him to do - make up some numbers Iceman likes, but which would have been wrong?

You are demonstrating a quite disturbing view of what an academics should do if you want them to lie for the populists ...

Apart from the prediction having been spot on ... just looking into the order of magnitude of daily cases ... the UK have currently some 150,000 new cases every day, which would be transferred to NZ something like 12,500 cases per day. So - was this estimate based on modelling of 200 cases per day for NZ really that outrageous (apart from having been absolutely spot on)? I think they have been quite conservative ... and maybe, just maybe, our government did an outstanding job probably combined with a huge bucket of good luck.

I see no reason why anybody would lose for this absolutely spot on estimate their academical credibility (assuming this estimate came from him anyway). I must say his academical credibility got a huge push up, what I unfortunately can't say about yours ...

Are you sure you still want to stick with this statement? Thinking about your credibility for flaming people for all the wrong reasons?




...

Wiles lost credibility when she was busy on her social media telling everyone to follow the rules but then go to the beach with a friend herself during lockdown, in a clear breach of the rules.

...


Well, it sounds like you've been away since some anonymous Blockwart on social media made said accusation against Wiles. We do know in the meantime that she cycled with her friend (I think even part of her bubble) to the beach and chatted with her outside and unmasked. No Covid restrictions violated ... wearing masks outside in uncrowded areas is not a requirement.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126351648/covid19-dr-siouxsie-wiles-warns-of-disinformation-after-claims-she-was-caught-breaking-lockdown-rules

Ah yes ... and even if she would have flouted the Covid restrictions (which she didn't) - how would this have impacted on her academical credibility?

Einstein didn't loose his academical credibility when he got a speeding ticket, didn't he? (Actually this is hypothetical, I don't know, whether he did, but hey, he might have ;) ;

Quite easy to make wrong accusations and to smear other peoples good names by using misinformation ...

artemis
04-01-2022, 11:15 AM
....
Not so long ago we had a few scientists and academics sign a letter objecting to maori tales being given equal standing to conventional science teachings in our schools. Most of them were shut up, demoted or moved on. The Government obviously didn't like it. Another example of Government deciding which academics & scientists should be allowed to speak up.

Dr Wiles was front and centre in the 2000 sig letter in a sort of response to the above letter in the Listener. She tweeted -

Calling all academics in Aotearoa New Zealand. Add your name to the open letter if you are also appalled by that letter claiming to defend science published last week in the NZ Listener. It’s caused untold harm and hurt & points to major problems with some of our colleagues.

That seems be be a mix of opinion and unspecific fact. Fair enough. But the response to the letter and to her, the other initiator of the letter and by implication the signatories was swift and brutal. Alongside the reactions to the Royal Society of NZ and the Auckland Uni CC. Most responses astonished, and not in a good way.

Court cases, investigations and symposia could be considered attempts at deflection with hope the issues will fall off the front page. I couldn't possibly comment.

iceman
04-01-2022, 12:09 PM
Did he? The closest I could find (and announced by Ashley Bloomfield) was 200 cases (based on modelling) per day:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/11/covid-19-two-auckland-high-schools-temporarily-closed-due-to-cases.html



So - it was not 300 but 200 cases predicted by modelling. From memory we had more than hundred cases per day for some weeks, didn't we? Pretty good estimate, isn't it?

..

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/455707/auckland-s-covid-19-outbreak-could-soon-reach-peak-shaun-hendy-modelling

iceman
04-01-2022, 12:22 PM
Dr Wiles was front and centre in the 2000 sig letter in a sort of response to the above letter in the Listener. She tweeted -

Calling all academics in Aotearoa New Zealand. Add your name to the open letter if you are also appalled by that letter claiming to defend science published last week in the NZ Listener. It’s caused untold harm and hurt & points to major problems with some of our colleagues.

That seems be be a mix of opinion and unspecific fact. Fair enough. But the response to the letter and to her, the other initiator of the letter and by implication the signatories was swift and brutal. Alongside the reactions to the Royal Society of NZ and the Auckland Uni CC. Most responses astonished, and not in a good way.

Court cases, investigations and symposia could be considered attempts at deflection with hope the issues will fall off the front page. I couldn't possibly comment.

Exactly what I was referring to artemis thank you. Her posts speak for themselves.

BlackPeter
04-01-2022, 12:35 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...endy-modelling


OK - so your link confirms that at least one media outlet reported about an model predicting "as high as 300 cases.


Shaun Hendy said case numbers were expected to get as high as 300 a day before tapering off in the current most likely scenario

Still a pretty good estimate given that numbers actually plateaued towards the end of November around 200 (with a peak of 222 on November 16th). Wouldn't you agree?

Certainly not a reason for losing academical credibility - his estimate was spot on given the uncertainties of an unknown virus and an unpredictable behaviour of the population ...

Actually - I think you should stop digging and apologise to the two scientists whose names you smeared. No evidence for their academical credibility impacted ...

We understand that you don't like their message, but seriously - shooting the messenger for not liking the message is not a behaviour anybody should be proud off.

davflaws
04-01-2022, 01:40 PM
Court cases, investigations and symposia could be considered attempts at deflection with hope the issues will fall off the front page. I couldn't possibly comment.

I couldn't either - because I don't understand the point you were trying to make. Please explain further.

Balance
05-01-2022, 08:28 AM
Exactly what I was referring to artemis thank you. Her posts speak for themselves.

Add academia now to the list as well :

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1631845087037-P157E5Y20OVM451POK2S/lap+dogs+copy.jpg?format=2500w

greater fool
05-01-2022, 10:16 AM
OK - so your link confirms that at least one media outlet reported about an model predicting "as high as 300 cases.

(................ Self serving drivel deleted................ Getting the last word in doesn't mean your correct BP, no matter how often you do it. )


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-expert-calls-new-covid-19-modelling-overcooked-and-rushed/YWR7DLF67TD2LNBCOX7IHROO5Y/

greater fool
05-01-2022, 01:22 PM
OK - so your link confirms that at least one media outlet reported about an model predicting "as high as 300 cases.

Still a pretty good estimate given that numbers actually plateaued towards the end of November around 200 (with a peak of 222 on November 16th). Wouldn't you agree?

Certainly not a reason for losing academical credibility - his estimate was spot on given the uncertainties of an unknown virus and an unpredictable behaviour of the population ...

Actually - I think you should stop digging and apologise to the two scientists whose names you smeared. No evidence for their academical credibility impacted ...

We understand that you don't like their message, but seriously - shooting the messenger for not liking the message is not a behaviour anybody should be proud off.

Thanks for this. A badge worth sharing.

13376

Puerile BP. Fragile?


Since you are an expert in everything BP, perhaps you could validate, for those less endowed, the Shaun Hendy modelling;

https://cpb-ap-se2.wpmucdn.com/blogs.auckland.ac.nz/dist/d/75/files/2017/01/modelling-to-support-a-future-covid-19-strategy.pdf


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/09/coronavirus-sceptics-say-singapore-is-proof-shaun-hendy-s-covid-19-modelling-is-wrong-but-is-it-really.html

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/10/covid-19-new-zealand-probably-won-t-get-back-to-alert-level-1-normality-again-shaun-hendy.html

(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/10/covid-19-new-zealand-probably-won-t-get-back-to-alert-level-1-normality-again-shaun-hendy.html)

iceman
06-01-2022, 01:00 AM
Deleted deleted

iceman
06-01-2022, 01:01 AM
13377

I think everyone, whatever political persuasion, wants NZ lower on this list.
The question is how do we get there. Increased productivity seems one of the obvious answers.

Balance
06-01-2022, 08:24 AM
I think everyone, whatever political persuasion, wants NZ lower on this list.
The question is how do we get there. Increased productivity seems one of the obvious answers.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/our-worst-nightmare-single-mum-of-six-killed-on-christmas-day/THSZBQUJUEAZGI6JOCFT5QKV4M/

So any bright ideas out there to tackle poverty with this profound tragedy surfacing one of the deep seated problems with child poverty?

fungus pudding
06-01-2022, 08:28 AM
13377

I think everyone, whatever political persuasion, wants NZ lower on this list.
The question is how do we get there. Increased productivity seems one of the obvious answers.

Is relativety to mid-income a sensible way to measure poverty?

BlackPeter
06-01-2022, 09:03 AM
13377

I think everyone, whatever political persuasion, wants NZ lower on this list.
The question is how do we get there. Increased productivity seems one of the obvious answers.

Not sure I would full heartedly agree if I look at the list. While I would see closing the gap between rich and poor as a desirable objective ... if I look at some of the countries at the "desirable bottom" of your list, I am not sure whether living like the people in Hungary, Slovenia or Czechia is really something to work towards.

What I am saying is - I don't think the list makes a particularly convincing argument in demonstrating that it is good to reduce the gap between poor and rich (and this is all what the relative poverty measures).

fungus pudding
06-01-2022, 09:29 AM
Not sure I would full heartedly agree if I look at the list. While I would see closing the gap between rich and poor as a desirable objective ... if I look at some of the countries at the "desirable bottom" of your list, I am not sure whether living like the people in Hungary, Slovenia or Czechia is really something to work towards.

What I am saying is - I don't think the list makes a particularly convincing argument in demonstrating that it is good to reduce the gap between poor and rich (and this is all what the relative poverty measures).

Of course it isn't. It's not that hard through govt. policies to close the gap between rich and poor - the downside is that everyone becomes poor.

Balance
06-01-2022, 09:31 AM
Of course it isn't. It's not that hard through govt. policies to close the gap between rich and poor - the downside is that everyone becomes poor.

Exactly - we have a clueless government which is busy redistributing wealth from the doers to the non-doers rather than creating new & increased wealth.

iceman
06-01-2022, 09:37 AM
Is relativety to mid-income a sensible way to measure poverty?

It's certainly not the only or best way, but one indicator of many. There are many different ways to do it and I don't know which is best. 5 years ago OECD said "extreme poverty" had been more than halved in the previous 30 years but we don't hear much discussion about that. In fact one could be forgiven for thinking poverty is increasing around the World, which is far from the truth.
Of course the argument against using "relative poverty" always comes down to if everybody earns $1, we have no relative poverty. But when you look at the bottom half of of that table, you have some strong & fair democratic societies, like most of the northern and central European countries where living standards are generally quite high. I do like NZ comparing with those countries and aiming for a similar standard in many ways.

BlackPeter
06-01-2022, 09:37 AM
Of course it isn't. It's not that hard through govt. policies to close the gap between rich and poor - the downside is that everyone becomes poor.

Well, making everybody poor is obviously one solution to the problem of reducing inequality. I don't think however it is the only solution ... and some of the others might be more desirable.

I remember that Sweden used to be a society with high equality and high living standards ... and by the way, so used to be NZ - some 60 years ago. It is possible, but politics needs to look at some other parameters than just reducing inequality.

Bjauck
06-01-2022, 10:26 AM
Exactly - we have a clueless government which is busy redistributing wealth from the doers to the non-doers rather than creating new & increased wealth. Haven’t Governments (especially this one?) over the past couple of decades overseen policies that have in effect included distributing wealth to landowners - just for the fact that they owned the land not for adding extra value ? The “doers” who have earned income, and selling goods and services, have been the ones shouldering the tax burden.

Balance
06-01-2022, 10:29 AM
Haven’t Governments (especially this one?) over the past couple of decades have overseen policies that have in effect distributed wealth to landowners - just for the fact that they owned the land not for adding extra value. The “doers” who have earned income, and selling goods and services, have been the ones shouldering the tax burden.

True to an extent but most property owners have had to work hard in the first place to own a home, as opposed to this government which has created zilch wealth save by borrowing hugely to generate demand side economic growth?

Balance
06-01-2022, 10:32 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300490811/former-afghan-vice-president-given-safe-haven-in-new-zealand

The hypocrisy of this government is beyond any redemption.

dobby41
06-01-2022, 10:49 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/our-worst-nightmare-single-mum-of-six-killed-on-christmas-day/THSZBQUJUEAZGI6JOCFT5QKV4M/

So any bright ideas out there to tackle poverty with this profound tragedy surfacing one of the deep seated problems with child poverty?

Mothers being killed could well add to poverty.
Nothing to say that woman was living in poverty.
I'm not sure what your point was - which deep seated problem? Being killed in a car accident?

Panda-NZ-
06-01-2022, 11:00 AM
The question is how do we get there. Increased productivity seems one of the obvious answers.

Something which is entirely in control of the private sector, though they can't be bothered.

Open the borders they say.

Balance
06-01-2022, 11:11 AM
Mothers being killed could well add to poverty.
Nothing to say that woman was living in poverty.
I'm not sure what your point was - which deep seated problem? Being killed in a car accident?

A single mother of 28 years old with 6 kids supported by the state - what kind of future do these children ever have?

dobby41
06-01-2022, 11:38 AM
A single mother of 28 years old with 6 kids supported by the state - what kind of future do these children ever have?

I was confused about what the car accident had to do with anything.
A few assumptions were made there but I see where you are going with it.

I agree, though, with the thrust of your argument.

stones
06-01-2022, 05:00 PM
You are SOOOO!!! right

fungus pudding
06-01-2022, 05:40 PM
You are SOOOO!!! right

Yes. I usually am.

davflaws
07-01-2022, 08:43 AM
Is relativety to mid-income a sensible way to measure poverty?

Google "The Spirit Level" by Kate Pickett. Read it if you haven't already.

fungus pudding
07-01-2022, 09:43 AM
Google "The Spirit Level" by Kate Pickett. Read it if you haven't already.

If a society is generally wealthy, is someone in the middle impoverished? Of course not. The item you reference argues the benefits of equalty. That's quite a different thing.

davflaws
07-01-2022, 12:21 PM
If a society is generally wealthy, is someone in the middle impoverished? Of course not. The item you reference argues the benefits of equalty. That's quite a different thing.

I genuinely do not understand the point you are making. Please explain further.

fungus pudding
07-01-2022, 12:57 PM
I genuinely do not understand the point you are making. Please explain further.

In a society where almost everyone is wealthy, the mid point is not poverty. I posed the question 'Is relativety to mid-income a sensible way to measure poverty?' Clearly it isn't. The benefits of equality as detailed in The Spirit Level, for all its merits, will not solve the problem of poverty where it doesn't exist.

Bjauck
07-01-2022, 03:47 PM
In a society where almost everyone is wealthy, the mid point is not poverty. I posed the question 'Is relativety to mid-income a sensible way to measure poverty?' Clearly it isn't. The benefits of equality as detailed in The Spirit Level, for all its merits, will not solve the problem of poverty where it doesn't exist.

it depends on what you understand by poverty. Is it a relative term? What does being without adequate resources mean, according to time and place? Being unable to afford to buy and use an internet connected laptop or big screen smart phone in NZ in 2022 may be a sign of poverty, and would put you at a relative disadvantage to your compatriots.

dobby41
07-01-2022, 04:23 PM
it depends on what you understand by poverty. Is it a relative term? What does being without adequate resources mean, according to time and place? Being unable to afford to buy and use an internet connected laptop or big screen smart phone in NZ in 2022 may be a sign of poverty, and would put you at a relative disadvantage to your compatriots.

I agree.
One definition is

1. What is the definition of poverty?
Essentially, poverty refers to lacking enough resources to provide the necessities of life—food, clean water, shelter and clothing. But in today’s world, that can be extended to include access to health care, education and even transportation. In government circles, poverty is often further defined as “absolute poverty” and “relative poverty” (more on that below).

Every country has its own measure for poverty. However, a widely recognized authority on the topic of “extreme poverty” is the World Bank. The Bank keeps a metric called the International Poverty Line and, as of 2015, set the definition of extreme poverty as those who live on less than US$1.90 per day. (Those living on between $1.90-$3.10 per day are classified as the “moderate poor.”) This number is based on the monetary value of a person’s consumption rather than income alone.

Relative poverty is tricky.
If you said it was income below 60% of the median income (say) then you would always have it to some degree.
Even if the median was $200k/year there would be people on less than $120k.
From here (10yrs old now)
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/research-papers/document/00PlibCIP181/household-incomes-inequality-and-poverty

New Zealand does not have an official poverty measure. However, low-income thresholds or poverty lines can be used. The ‘fixed line’ measure anchors the poverty line in a reference year, then adjusts it each survey with the Consumer Price Index. The ‘moving line’ or ‘relative’ measure sets the poverty line as a proportion of the median income.

The fixed line measure (60 percent of median income) adjusted for housing costs indicated 15 percent of the total population lived in poverty in 2010, the same as in 2009. This ended a decline in poverty started in 1994. Child poverty rates were 22 percent from 2007 to 2010, following major falls from 2001. According to the MSD this was due to improving employment, income-related rents and WFF. Poverty rates for older New Zealanders (7 percent) were lower in 2010 than for any other age group (13 percent for 25 to 64 year olds and 22 percent for dependent children).

The poverty rate also remained unchanged on the moving line measure after adjusting for housing cost. The rate remained 18 percent from 2007 to 2010, as during the mid 1990s, but was double the 1984 rate. Based on OECD and European Union 2008-2009 figures, New Zealand’s population and child poverty rates were close to the overall medians.
(my bolding)

moka
07-01-2022, 10:29 PM
13377

I think everyone, whatever political persuasion, wants NZ lower on this list.
The question is how do we get there. Increased productivity seems one of the obvious answers.
Increased productivity is not the answer because the benefits would flow through to the business owners not to the workers.

Roll back neoliberalism including its policy of ‘labour market flexibility” which reduced wages and conditions for workers. Neoliberalism makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. A lot of the risk in business has been pushed onto workers, or contractors, including those who would have been employees 40 years ago.

https://allanjjgillies.wordpress.com/2013/08/07/zero-hour-contracts-labour-flexibility-and-other-euphemisms-of-the-neoliberal-agenda/
(https://allanjjgillies.wordpress.com/2013/08/07/zero-hour-contracts-labour-flexibility-and-other-euphemisms-of-the-neoliberal-agenda/)
“Recent stories of ‘zero-hour contracts’ should come as no surprise. They are but one consequence of the rise of neoliberalism. Profits are prioritised over people; workers’ rights are eroded under the banner of ‘labour flexibility’; and the social safety net is recast as an unaffordable luxury.

Risk, that Big Mac sales will be down for McDonalds for example, is absorbed by the company’s minimum wage employees, with hours reduced to reflect downturns in sales. Generally, financial institutions and businesses would be expected to account for their share of market volatility, paying-out smaller dividends, for example. Now, employers such as McDonalds and Sports Direct have sought to shift a large proportion of this uncertainty onto their workers. Low-pay employees are left to wonder whether they will earn enough this week to pay their bills, while the profit margins of their employers are sustained.

Labour rights are virtually non-existent. Demonised trade unions, hounded and marginalised under the weight of statute, offer little protection. Under such conditions, workers are forced to ‘take-it or leave-it.’ And that is really no choice at all.”

artemis
08-01-2022, 07:16 AM
Increased proctivity is not the answer because the benefits would flow through to the business owners not to the workers......

While probably true, decision makers should bear in mind that people with assets have choices. Including where to live, who to employ (within the law) and what to do with those assets.

France found out the hard way.

Bjauck
08-01-2022, 08:43 AM
While probably true, decision makers should bear in mind that people with assets have choices. Including where to live, who to employ (within the law) and what to do with those assets.

France found out the hard way. Brexit may well have been in part a reaction to this global elite. Conservative PM Theresa May's push for Brexit, after the UK referendum voted for Brexit, referenced the International elite and their really being "Citizens of Nowhere."

If disparities in wealth and the rights and pay of the lower-paid continue to comparatively erode in NZ, then NZ may face an equivalent of a Brexit or Trump moment.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/12/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-had-shades-of-hitler

Panda-NZ-
08-01-2022, 11:43 AM
Brexit may well have been in part a reaction to this global elite. Conservative PM Theresa May's push for Brexit, after the UK referendum voted for Brexit, referenced the International elite and their really being "Citizens of Nowhere."


With Luxon around to remind us about the out of touch nature of the elite (from birth in his case) it shouldn't be a problem here.

Balance
08-01-2022, 07:17 PM
With Luxon around to remind us about the out of touch nature of the elite (from birth in his case) it shouldn't be a problem here.

Same Luxon you lied about paying no tax?

Panda_NZ - confirmed liar & paid Labour shill.

Panda-NZ-
08-01-2022, 10:48 PM
https://twitter.com/ClintVSmith/status/1384633109203722248

Good point by clint really.

Balance
09-01-2022, 08:41 AM
https://twitter.com/ClintVSmith/status/1384633109203722248

Good point by clint really.

What about your lie that Luxon paid no tax?

BDL
09-01-2022, 10:54 AM
www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/459250/green-party-discontent-members-walk-ex-mps-criticise-leadership

Cracks becoming public for the Green party (really the Brown party in disguise).

Labour will be next.

Bjauck
09-01-2022, 01:13 PM
www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/459250/green-party-discontent-members-walk-ex-mps-criticise-leadership (http://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/459250/green-party-discontent-members-walk-ex-mps-criticise-leadership)

Cracks becoming public for the Green party (really the Brown party in disguise).

Labour will be next.
I thought it was a deep Red & Green Party although I don’t think they disguise anything. If you are referencing a perceived appeal to certain ethnicities, maybe the Greens stand out in contrast to the major Parties (Labour included) who some may perceive as pandering to the older European land-owning Ascendancy.

I am not surprised that there is discontent within the Greens co-operation with this Labour government, that has overseen real wage purchasing power deterioration at the same as there have been inflating house prices and widening inequalities in household wealth.

Pay rises don’t keep up with inflation
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/300374351/threequarters-of-workers-get-pay-rises-that-dont-keep-up-with-inflation

Panda-NZ-
09-01-2022, 02:21 PM
The Greens aren't needed and could go into opposition if they like.

Balance
09-01-2022, 02:23 PM
The Greens aren't needed and could go into opposition if they like.

What about your lie about Luxon not paying any tax?

You have zero credibility on anything - resorting to lies as often as you do.

BDL
09-01-2022, 02:32 PM
I thought it was a deep Red & Green Party although I don’t think they disguise anything. If you are referencing a perceived appeal to certain ethnicities, maybe the Greens stand out in contrast to the major Parties (Labour included) who some may perceive as pandering to the older European land-owning Ascendancy.

I am not surprised that there is discontent within the Greens co-operation with this Labour government, that has overseen real wage purchasing power deterioration at the same as there have been inflating house prices and widening inequalities in household wealth.

Pay rises don’t keep up with inflation
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/300374351/threequarters-of-workers-get-pay-rises-that-dont-keep-up-with-inflation

You sound a bit bitter about "the older European land-owning Ascendancy." That's not being very kind.....

There are no laws in NZ that stops a certain race from owning land, so what exactly is your point?

BDL
09-01-2022, 02:37 PM
You sound a bit bitter about "the older European land-owning Ascendancy." That's not being very kind.....

There are no laws in NZ that stops a certain race from owning land, so what exactly is your point?

Oh, I forgot, you want to bring in laws that will give land ownership to one race..... that sound fair.....

Balance
09-01-2022, 08:27 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/bill-ralston-nz-on-the-edge-of-disaster/GXL6UZMLVPCT7PCSRPP4T2KWPI/

Paywalled

A month before the delta outbreak in NZ, the government & country were warned that NZ was too complacent and asleep.

How true it proved to be.

NZ on the edge of disaster - July 28

It is hard not to feel that the Government and much of the country are somehow, incredibly, asleep at the wheel. Eighteen months into a deadly pandemic, we are balanced on the edge of a precipice and yet New Zealand seems to be blissfully unaware.

A recent public poll by the Government showed 44 per cent of us were "neutral" towards the country's Covid-19 situation and 75 per cent said the country was going in the right direction on the pandemic.

Is it the right direction that an important line of defence against another Covid-19 outbreak, our underpaid, overworked and exhausted nurses, are forced to go on strike to get decent pay?

The Government has borrowed billions to spend on anything it fancies, but nurses are told there is nothing left in the district health board piggy bank to pay them better. How does that work?

Has anyone noticed that Fortress New Zealand, our bastion against infection, has some huge holes in its crumbling walls?

A stubborn number of border workers have still not been inoculated. Months have passed and the Government has been reluctant to force them to do so because of its concerns about personal freedoms.

davflaws
09-01-2022, 09:35 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/bill-ralston-nz-on-the-edge-of-disaster/GXL6UZMLVPCT7PCSRPP4T2KWPI/



So more than six months ago Bill Ralston (that rabid left wing Jacinda loving Marxist??) told us we were on the edge of disaster.

But we currently have one of the lowest Covid death rates per 100,000 in the world

So your point is??

Balance
09-01-2022, 10:03 PM
So more than six months ago Bill Ralston (that rabid left wing Jacinda loving Marxist??) told us we were on the edge of disaster.

But we currently have one of the lowest Covid death rates per 100,000 in the world

So your point is??

Which part of NZ being unprepared for the delta outbreak do you not get?

Which part of Auckland suffering through the long lockdown do you not get?

Which part of debt piling up at $1 billion a week do you not get?

NZ has so many natural advantages (an island, low population density) - all squandered by a complacent and incompetent government preoccupied with spin and divisive policies.

Panda-NZ-
09-01-2022, 10:53 PM
This thread needs a prescription for xanax.

Bjauck
09-01-2022, 11:29 PM
Oh, I forgot, you want to bring in laws that will give land ownership to one race..... that sound fair..... If you are referring to me, Nope. However, refer to my post that brought you to your conclusion. Ascendancy can come about over time through various factors...

iceman
10-01-2022, 02:54 AM
Which part of NZ being unprepared for the delta outbreak do you not get?

Which part of Auckland suffering through the long lockdown do you not get?

Which part of debt piling up at $1 billion a week do you not get?

NZ has so many natural advantages (an island, low population density) - all squandered by a complacent and incompetent government preoccupied with spin and divisive policies.

But Balance apparently none of that matters. The only 2 numbers people are allowed to focus on is "new daily cases" and "deaths WITH COVID".

Forget about all the things you correctly point out, the unnecessary misery inflicted on hundreds of thousands of families, not to menion the huge death tolls on the roads & in the water. But they don´t count.
Stay focused on the COVID scaremongering !

Balance
10-01-2022, 09:59 AM
But Balance apparently none of that matters. The only 2 numbers people are allowed to focus on is "new daily cases" and "deaths WITH COVID".

Forget about all the things you correctly point out, the unnecessary misery inflicted on hundreds of thousands of families, not to menion the huge death tolls on the roads & in the water. But they don´t count.
Stay focused on the COVID scaremongering !

Brainwashed by the spin mistress and scared to submission by her relentless BS - that's the lot now of the brain dead who voted Clueless Cindy & her team of nincompoops to wreck havoc on NZ.

davflaws
10-01-2022, 10:30 AM
Brainwashed by the spin mistress and scared to submission by her relentless BS - that's the lot now of the brain dead who voted Clueless Cindy & her team of nincompoops to wreck havoc on NZ.

Come on Balance - Don't hold back for the sake of courtesy or promotion of a civilised discourse - tell us what you really think!

Balance
10-01-2022, 10:33 AM
Come on Balance - Don't hold back for the sake of courtesy or promotion of a civilised discourse - tell us what you really think!

Fair enough then for you to enlighten us what Cindy & her team have delivered to NZ of the huge promises they made to get elected.

Start with child poverty, Kiwibuild, cost of living, kind society, racial harmony.

davflaws
10-01-2022, 12:03 PM
Fair enough then for you to enlighten us what Cindy & her team have delivered to NZ of the huge promises they made to get elected.

Start with child poverty, Kiwibuild, cost of living, kind society, racial harmony.

Nah - As far as I'm concerned, your behavior on this and other threads disqualifies you as an arbiter of what is "fair enough". What I conclude is that you are not actually interested in a reasonable discussion, and that anyone posting anything to the left of Atilla the Hun will be personally abused and denigrated as "clueless" , "braindead", "a paid Labour shill", a liar or worse (especially if they are advancing an argument not covered by the current opposition's "talking points".

Balance
10-01-2022, 01:52 PM
Nah - As far as I'm concerned, your behavior on this and other threads disqualifies you as an arbiter of what is "fair enough". What I conclude is that you are not actually interested in a reasonable discussion, and that anyone posting anything to the left of Atilla the Hun will be personally abused and denigrated as "clueless" , "braindead", "a paid Labour shill", a liar or worse (especially if they are advancing an argument not covered by the current opposition's "talking points".

A long winded answer to something simple.

Just write that you are unable to defend the indefensible - that’s the long and short of how pathetic this government has been at delivering on the huge promises it made.

10,000 homes promised a year = delivered less than 500 a year!

777
10-01-2022, 03:02 PM
Nah - As far as I'm concerned, your behavior on this and other threads disqualifies you as an arbiter of what is "fair enough". What I conclude is that you are not actually interested in a reasonable discussion, and that anyone posting anything to the left of Atilla the Hun will be personally abused and denigrated as "clueless" , "braindead", "a paid Labour shill", a liar or worse (especially if they are advancing an argument not covered by the current opposition's "talking points".

Sums up Balance perfectly.

Balance
10-01-2022, 05:57 PM
Remember when our Left wing media were screaming every single day about a 'Housing Crisis'?

This was prior to 2017.

It must have been all sorted out I guess....

It's now left to the cartoonists to accurately relate where the housing crisis is at.

The rest of the media have had their mouths & hands stuffed with taxpayers' $$$.

https://liberation.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451d75d69e20240a4a91fef200d-800wi

https://liberation.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451d75d69e20240a486fdf1200d-800wi

Bjauck
11-01-2022, 08:01 AM
Remember when our Left wing media were screaming every single day about a 'Housing Crisis'?

This was prior to 2017.

It must have been all sorted out I guess.... Try a search on a favourite search engine. I am not sure about every day, but there are still umpteen items published on NZ news sites - just as many as when the Nats were the ones ignoring the unfolding supply and price crisis. (Perhaps undertaking meaningful policy changes to try to solve this crisis would not appeal to the majority of the electorate that actually bothers to vote?)

"News" Items on housing anguish/burgeoning house prices catch clicks and sell advertising. Neither right wing or left wing media would want miss out on that...

Bjauck
11-01-2022, 08:04 AM
It's now left to the cartoonists to accurately relate where the housing crisis is at.

The rest of the media have had their mouths & hands stuffed with taxpayers' $$$.

https://liberation.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451d75d69e20240a4a91fef200d-800wi
https://liberation.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451d75d69e20240a486fdf1200d-800wiA good picture does paint a thousand words.:laugh::laugh:

They are both great cartoonists.

Reporters Without Borders in 2021 ranked NZ 8th in the World for Press Freedom. Ahead of the other Anglophone countries of Canada and Ireland and well ahead of Australia, the UK and the USA. As usual the Scandinavian countries are at the top.

https://rsf.org/en/ranking

Bill Smith
11-01-2022, 06:37 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-delta-outbreak-labour-mp-marja-lubecks-summer-break-in-europe-after-securing-miq-slot/WHONX2JOP5MIUXEAZAU3LBPPIE/[/url]

So while there are thousands of NZers locked out of the country, this greedy trougher gobbles up MIQ spaces. And if you believe she was just lucky and had no special access, I have a bridge for sale.

Balance
11-01-2022, 07:10 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-delta-outbreak-labour-mp-marja-lubecks-summer-break-in-europe-after-securing-miq-slot/WHONX2JOP5MIUXEAZAU3LBPPIE/[/url]

So while there are thousands of NZers locked out of the country, this greedy trougher gobbles up MIQ spaces. And if you believe she was just lucky and had no special access, I have a bridge for sale.

No, you are too suspicious. DJ Dimension got his critical worker exemption 3 times and MIQ spots 3 times because he was simply lucky. No special favours or arrangements.

Only the truth ever comes out of this government via the pulpit of truth. That’s why Hipkins did not disclose said DJ came in under the critical worker exemption - he said DJ got in via a spare slot in MIQ! Nobody ever heard of a spare slot in MIQ so it must be the truth.

iceman
11-01-2022, 10:33 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-delta-outbreak-labour-mp-marja-lubecks-summer-break-in-europe-after-securing-miq-slot/WHONX2JOP5MIUXEAZAU3LBPPIE/[/url]

So while there are thousands of NZers locked out of the country, this greedy trougher gobbles up MIQ spaces. And if you believe she was just lucky and had no special access, I have a bridge for sale.

Can´t be true. Just wait for dobby to ask you for a proof that she didn´t enter the lottery.
I repeat for the umpteenth time, the MIQ system and the Government´s handling of it is CORRUPT. I have a personal experience of how people get treated veery differently. It´s disgusting.

Balance
12-01-2022, 10:25 AM
Can´t be true. Just wait for dobby to ask you for a proof that she didn´t enter the lottery.
I repeat for the umpteenth time, the MIQ system and the Government´s handling of it is CORRUPT. I have a personal experience of how people get treated veery differently. It´s disgusting.

There are several ways to get a MIQ spot :

1. Lottery

2. Emergency

3. Critical Care

4. Government allocation to itself, exporters, businesses and sports group. Basically a favored group.

The system is opaque & subject to discretion (especially #4) and answerable to no one except the minister & the government!

We have had Murray Bolton take on the system and won but he has plenty of $$$$ to hire a top team of lawyers.

So let's ask again - why did Hipkins have to lie about how DJ Dimension got into NZ 3 times?

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1605818650450-9PUGFQUN5MQVICP2Y0KA/backpack.jpg?format=2500w

iceman
12-01-2022, 11:28 AM
There are several ways to get a MIQ spot :

1. Lottery

2. Emergency

3. Critical Care

4. Government allocation to itself, exporters, businesses and sports group. Basically a favored group.

The system is opaque & subject to discretion (especially #4) and answerable to no one except the minister & the government!

We have had Murray Bolton take on the system and won but he has plenty of $$$$ to hire a top team of lawyers.

So let's ask again - why did Hipkins have to lie about how DJ Dimension got into NZ 3 times?

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1605818650450-9PUGFQUN5MQVICP2Y0KA/backpack.jpg?format=2500w

A friend of mine was working on an oil & gas ship in Myanmar last year when the military took over, killing hundreds. Him & his crew were quite concerned as they were regularly in port and doing work up & down a river.
His only way home was to take the ship to Singapore (worried that the ship may be confiscated by Myanmar military) and for the crew to try to fly home. They could only get a 48 hours transit visa in Singas at the time. He was the only Kiwi in the crew and applied for an MIQ spot under the emergency allocation. His response, 6 days later, said "we regret to advise that your application has been declined as your situation does not meet the criteria under which we allocate access to MIQ under emergency".

He & his wife at home in Nelson with a 18 months old child, went through hell for several weeks. He eventually got back home but much later and totally broken down and burnt out. How anyone can think this is OK is beyond me. There are thousands of similar stories.
The people in charge are completely heartless. Be kind my arse.

Balance
12-01-2022, 11:50 AM
A friend of mine was working on an oil & gas ship in Myanmar last year when the military took over, killing hundreds. Him & his crew were quite concerned as they were regularly in port and doing work up & down a river.
His only way home was to take the ship to Singapore (worried that the ship may be confiscated by Myanmar military) and for the crew to try to fly home. They could only get a 48 hours transit visa in Singas at the time. He was the only Kiwi in the crew and applied for an MIQ spot under the emergency allocation. His response, 6 days later, said "we regret to advise that your application has been declined as your situation does not meet the criteria under which we allocate access to MIQ under emergency".

He & his wife at home in Nelson with a 18 months old child, went through hell for several weeks. He eventually got back home but much later and totally broken down and burnt out. How anyone can think this is OK is beyond me. There are thousands of similar stories.
The people in charge are completely heartless. Be kind my arse.

Disgusting - if that was not an emergency, James Shaw & his entourage (burning through carbon credits to & fro Europe last year) certainly did not qualify in any way to take up 10 valuable MIQ spots - granted as a favoured group by Cindy.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/09/jacinda-ardern-grants-james-shaw-and-entourage-miq-spots-for-uk-climate-conference.html

‘Shaw is only the second minister to travel overseas during the pandemic but he'll be using the same allocation that brought in the Lion King cast, the Wiggles, the Avatar crew and more than 700 people for the America's Cup‘

So how did DJ Dimension got in 3 times again? Spare MIQ spot, said Hipkins!

BTW, Clarke Gayford coincidentally also is a DJ and moves in that circle.

Panda-NZ-
12-01-2022, 05:15 PM
Why are anti-government protests being deemed illegal? Surely the right to protest is an important part of an erstwhile free society.

There's a pandemic on. Plus NZ has relatively little support for the protests you want to see.

No news corporation media here.

Balance
12-01-2022, 08:54 PM
No, you are too suspicious. DJ Dimension got his critical worker exemption 3 times and MIQ spots 3 times because he was simply lucky. No special favours or arrangements.

Only the truth ever comes out of this government via the pulpit of truth. That’s why Hipkins did not disclose said DJ came in under the critical worker exemption - he said DJ got in via a spare slot in MIQ! Nobody ever heard of a spare slot in MIQ so it must be the truth.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/deeply-inappropriate-clarke-gayford-sorry-for-confusion-after-claim-he-tried-to-get-mate-rapid-covid-test/BERMJTAVSMBW756EZLHP56PCVA/

Clarke Gayford attempts to circumvent health guidelines on behalf of one of his musician mates.

Did not like what he was told by the pharmacist so he gets his mate Gayford on the line to try & circumvent MOH guidelines.

Except :

"He apologises for any issues or confusion this may have caused the pharmacy staff."

He did not respond when asked directly whether it was appropriate to be giving pharmacists health advice which later turned out to be incorrect.”

Sounding familiar? Entitled prick.

DJ Dimension & DJ Gayford?

iceman
12-01-2022, 10:31 PM
Total hypocrites, one and all. Gayford tries it on and then apologises when the pharmacist shows integrity and tells the truth about what happened. The sheeple and their overlords won’t be fazed though; Gayford is the partner of the Leader and important to the party. His correct thinking and virtue is known. Of course he will pull strings for a fellow correct thinker.

Of course he "tries it on" after seeing all his foreign DJ mates not having to follow rules like everyone else. So why not his local musician mates as well. This yet again clearly shows how corrupt this whole COVID system and this Government has become. Can you imagine the howling from the Left and our useless media if they wife of John Key or Bill English had done something similar.
The CORRUPTION continues unabataed with this shamelful lot.

Balance
13-01-2022, 04:32 PM
It’s not even an apology - Gayford thinks he created confusion or other issues for the pharmacy staff when he was the one who was either confused, misinformed or was trying to use his position as the PM’s partner to get his mates the rats.

He should be apologising for either any of the above - which he of course does not want to as he will come across as an entitled idiot.

Balance
13-01-2022, 04:40 PM
Why would you need someone called 'Clark Gayford' to intercede on your behalf....unless the mates and Gayford saw this as a "do you know why I am?" moment whereby the Pharmacist was supposed to bow down to the mighty one.

"When I explained that we had not received any direction from the MoH he was very unimpressed."

So does 'very unimpressed' mean that he got angry with the Pharmacist?

Means he thinks he knows better, being the PM’s partner.

Entitled prick just like DJ Dimension.

winner69
13-01-2022, 05:05 PM
Means he thinks he knows better, being the PM’s partner.

Entitled prick just like DJ Dimension.

These summer festivals were touted by the PM as essential for well being of NZers

Balance
13-01-2022, 05:41 PM
These summer festivals were touted by the PM as essential for well being of NZers

Just as she thought the elimination strategy as essential for the well-being of NZers? Which was why NZ went slow on the vaccination rollout, necessitating the long lockdown in Auckland when delta hit.

Joshuatree
13-01-2022, 11:29 PM
These summer festivals were touted by the PM as essential for well being of NZers

Yep many thousands of disappointed fans.

Bjauck
14-01-2022, 08:26 AM
These summer festivals were touted by the PM as essential for well being of NZers LOL. Interesting priorities from this government. A pretty set of peripheral policies belying neglect of the underlying substance of the country.

The public hospitals and health service are essential. Yet staff leave for Australia for better pay and affordable accommodation. Public health is severely under resourced, waiting lists have ballooned despite massaging by people having been moved off waiting lists.

Balance
17-01-2022, 05:02 PM
The stench of hypocrisy ….

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300497623/did-government-simply-cave-national-demands-answers-over-residency-decision-for-former-vicepresident-of-afghanistan-sarwar-danish

Stuff has previously asked Twyford whether it was reasonable that Danish, who was already in a safe country, was granted residence when former soldiers who fought with the NZDF had not been offered resettlement; however, he did not answer the question.

Aaron
20-01-2022, 08:28 AM
This headline makes me so angry. No need to reply or look but I feel as though I have got it off my chest if I post on here.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/government-urged-to-tackle-complex-drowning-issues-following-dozens-of-deaths-in-2021/ar-AASWAwH?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

"Govt urged to tackle complex drowning issue"

WTF do these pansies expect us to give up all personal responsibility. Some people drowned, it could have been me in more than a few close calls but take responsibility for your actions don't make the govt responsible for EVERYTHING.

It is not even a complex issue, pretty straight forward, take care in the water and if you drown pushing your limits tough ****, good on you for giving it a go.

ynot
20-01-2022, 09:18 AM
Any lefties out there want to deny our strings are being pulled by the UN.

https://thebfd.co.nz/2022/01/20/nz-is-run-by-the-un/

Aaron
20-01-2022, 10:28 AM
Any lefties out there want to deny our strings are being pulled by the UN.

https://thebfd.co.nz/2022/01/20/nz-is-run-by-the-un/

What does BFD stand for? Bull*hit F*cking Diatribe.

"Trust Us Not Them" that is a warning sign straight away.

I will keep my eyes open for the Blue Helmets, thanks for the heads up.

ynot
20-01-2022, 10:48 AM
What does BFD stand for? Bull*hit F*cking Diatribe.

"Trust Us Not Them" that is a warning sign straight away.

I will keep my eyes open for the Blue Helmets, thanks for the heads up.

Sounds like a denial.
For starters I say that Arderns objective is a cushy UN job for sure.

Aaron
20-01-2022, 10:59 AM
Sounds like a denial.
For starters I say that Arderns objective is a cushy UN job for sure.

Good on you.

I have probably already wasted enough of your time already with my bull*hit so I will leave it at that.

davflaws
20-01-2022, 12:55 PM
Any lefties out there want to deny our strings are being pulled by the UN.

https://thebfd.co.nz/2022/01/20/nz-is-run-by-the-un/

BFD features Cameron Slater - nuff said!

ynot
20-01-2022, 01:16 PM
And you think Labour is running their own show ?

davflaws
20-01-2022, 01:53 PM
And you think Labour is running their own show ?

I think the govt is cognizant of the international obligations and committments entered into by govts of both stripes, and balances its actions and policies against them, it's assessment of what will and won't fly politically, and what it thinks is good for NZ.

winner69
20-01-2022, 03:26 PM
Jeez $75m to host a zoom meeting ….and govt paid Stuff etc to report how good it was

https://mailchi.mp/31287ea4d973/revealed-governments-media-pay-off-for-apec-puff-pieces

dobby41
20-01-2022, 05:13 PM
And you think Labour is running their own show ?

As much as a NZ Govt runs their own show.
International events and obligations affect what we can and should do so we aren't navigating within a vacuum.

I won't bother reading BFD - just isn't worth my time.

ynot
20-01-2022, 05:36 PM
As much as a NZ Govt runs their own show.
International events and obligations affect what we can and should do so we aren't navigating within a vacuum.

I won't bother reading BFD - just isn't worth my time.

So you read Herald, stuff etc. That is not journalism.

dobby41
20-01-2022, 05:52 PM
So you read Herald, stuff etc. That is not journalism.

If you like, believe and trust BFD fill your boots.

westerly
20-01-2022, 07:01 PM
So you read Herald, stuff etc. That is not journalism.

And you think bfd is?

westerly

artemis
20-01-2022, 07:14 PM
And you think bfd is? Westerly

Have you looked at BFD recently?

ynot
20-01-2022, 07:23 PM
And you think bfd is?

westerly

When the mainstream media looses credibility the people have no option but to look elsewhere.
Historically change will always germinate in the fringe.

westerly
20-01-2022, 10:40 PM
Have you looked at BFD recently?

Once was enough.

westerly

ynot
21-01-2022, 08:23 AM
I initially read that as: “Historically change will always germinate in the fridge”.

lol ! actually i have had reasonable success lately with germination but more in the garden, not so much the fridge.

Blue Skies
21-01-2022, 10:05 AM
When the mainstream media looses credibility the people have no option but to look elsewhere.
Historically change will always germinate in the fringe.


NZ's moved on, we're a progressive liberal democracy, change is happening & obviously too fast for some.

The BDF is backward looking, its constituency is assuaging the anxiety & fears of those hankering for the past, articles denying climate change, supporting anti-vaxer Liz Gunn, unilateralism v addressing challenges the world faces as part of a global community etc.
Pandemics, climate change, refugees etc these are global problems needing multilateral solutions.

Balance
21-01-2022, 10:24 AM
Jeez $75m to host a zoom meeting ….and govt paid Stuff etc to report how good it was

https://mailchi.mp/31287ea4d973/revealed-governments-media-pay-off-for-apec-puff-pieces

NZ now can boast of a 'paid' press rather than a free press - courtesy of taxpayers' money being used by Cindy to buy positive PR :

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1631845087037-P157E5Y20OVM451POK2S/lap+dogs+copy.jpg?format=2500w

ynot
21-01-2022, 10:37 AM
NZ's moved on, we're a progressive liberal democracy, change is happening & obviously too fast for some.

The BDF is backward looking, its constituency is assuaging the anxiety & fears of those hankering for the past, articles denying climate change, supporting anti-vaxer Liz Gunn, unilateralism v addressing challenges the world faces as part of a global community etc.
Pandemics, climate change, refugees etc these are global problems needing multilateral solutions.
I am not afraid of change but not when it involves stepping backwards into dreamland.

Balance
21-01-2022, 10:45 AM
I am not afraid of change but not when it involves stepping backwards into dreamland.

Yup - this government is all about redistribution :

From those who work hard and produce to those who do not work and who produce ever more dependents & beneficiaries (but Labour voters)

And borrowing ever more money & cranking up debt (for future generations to shoulder) to pay for unproductive initiatives, projects and largesse to their favored ones.

That's the CHANGE that the likes of Blue Skies are supporting.

BDL
21-01-2022, 12:23 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127559941/family-begging-for-urgent-miq-exemption-to-save-daughters-arm

What the heck is this "be kind" bunch of wallies Labour government up to??

dobby41
21-01-2022, 01:17 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127559941/family-begging-for-urgent-miq-exemption-to-save-daughters-arm

What the heck is this "be kind" bunch of wallies Labour government up to??

Probably like the last desperate case I read - turned out well and the article was just jumping the gun.
No time frame given for what responses have or haven't been given (except that the accident happened 3 days ago).
Being proactive in pulling heart strings I suppose.

BDL
21-01-2022, 01:22 PM
Probably like the last desperate case I read - turned out well and the article was just jumping the gun.
No time frame given for what responses have or haven't been given (except that the accident happened 3 days ago).
Being proactive in pulling heart strings I suppose.

Or maybe not, just speculation by you dobby41 to shift blame somewhere else. Typical Labour strategy.

The point is, why has it got to this point. "Be kind" is just a mindless mantra.

Joshuatree
21-01-2022, 01:28 PM
Once was enough.

westerly

Not wrong, a mud rag,with whale oil involved for one,remember dirty politics !

dobby41
21-01-2022, 01:40 PM
Or maybe not, just speculation by you dobby41 to shift blame somewhere else. Typical Labour strategy.

The point is, why has it got to this point. "Be kind" is just a mindless mantra.

Label as you wish.
Fact - accident on Tuesday.
Fact - no mention in the article of what response (if any) they have had so far.
Fact - the last case I read turned out OK because the process worked and the 'moan' was pre-emptive.
So an answer to your question (What the heck is this "be kind" bunch of wallies Labour government up to?? ) is - no one is any the wiser from the article.
The point is - no one is wiser as to whether they are being kind or not but you'd be happy to jump in boots and all.

BDL
21-01-2022, 01:45 PM
Label as you wish.
Fact - accident on Tuesday.
Fact - no mention in the article of what response (if any) they have had so far.
Fact - the last case I read turned out OK because the process worked and the 'moan' was pre-emptive.
So an answer to your question (What the heck is this "be kind" bunch of wallies Labour government up to?? ) is - no one is any the wiser from the article.
The point is - no one is wiser as to whether they are being kind or not but you'd be happy to jump in boots and all.

So why no follow up from Labour to dispute these facts. Did the reporter not check with them?
You are just speculating, "nothing to see here", based on nothing.
You are too quick to defend when YOU have not got the facts.

dobby41
22-01-2022, 04:25 PM
So why no follow up from Labour to dispute these facts. Did the reporter not check with them?
You are just speculating, "nothing to see here", based on nothing.
You are too quick to defend when YOU have not got the facts.

For a start I didn't really defend - just pointed out a few facts (you are correct that I don't know, any more than you, what is going on here but I don't jump to conclusions).
"Why hasn't the Govt disputed these facts?" - they don't play that game, and which facts are you talking about?
The only ones given are that the person has the accident on Tuesday and appears to have applied for an emergency MIQ spot.
There are no other facts given.

BDL
22-01-2022, 06:26 PM
For a start I didn't really defend - just pointed out a few facts (you are correct that I don't know, any more than you, what is going on here but I don't jump to conclusions).
"Why hasn't the Govt disputed these facts?" - they don't play that game, and which facts are you talking about?
The only ones given are that the person has the accident on Tuesday and appears to have applied for an emergency MIQ spot.
There are no other facts given.

But you did jump to conclusions by stating "nothing to see here"
Know one seems to know for some reason.....??
You are too quick to defend with no facts, just blind faith in this government. That is dangerous ground.

Balance
23-01-2022, 08:31 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-auckland-lockdown-cost-8-billion/AGURSE2ZSR475B4FZ2LBFRKPZI/

Treasury best estimate - $8 billion economic cost from
Auckland lockdown.

No thanks to Cindy’s clueless & incompetent slow rollout of the vaccine program - from first in the queue to last in the queue.

Entrep
23-01-2022, 09:08 AM
Instead of the series with the Aussies, maybe we can do something virtually with the Chinese and North Koreans instead?

What a laughing stock New Zealand has become.

Balance
23-01-2022, 09:16 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/127561910/covid19-how-is-it-that-we-are-not-prepared-again

And omicron shows this clueless government led by a Spin Mistress has been caught unprepared (again).

Been too busy thinking of the largesse they are going to bestow on their voter base in 2023, using ever more debt for future generations to shoulder.

winner69
23-01-2022, 09:25 AM
Ey Balance …you going to the wedding

I didn’t get an invite

Balance
23-01-2022, 09:45 AM
Ey Balance …you going to the wedding

I didn’t get an invite

NZ moving to red within next 48 hours?

Wedding will be postponed to 2023 - better in election year.

There is still hope that nobody else will attend the spin mistress wedding and we will be roped in to make up the numbers?

Panda-NZ-
23-01-2022, 11:45 AM
Two vaccines are not as effective as three - a response to a new variant.

Even conservative friendly un-Australian is having a go at the Aussie corona deaths.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/

Balance
23-01-2022, 12:31 PM
NZ moving to red within next 48 hours?

Wedding will be postponed to 2023 - better in election year.

There is still hope that nobody else will attend the spin mistress wedding and we will be roped in to make up the numbers?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/covid-19-omicron-variant-jacinda-ardern-cancels-wedding-as-country-moves-to-red/X22AEDQESJNQUJZOO5WPNQRPZI/

Wedding postponed - Cindy is so predictable. The spin mistress only ever has one thing on her mind - how to milk anything for electoral advantage.

If she could create disasters, she would do a Christchurch event every year.

ynot
23-01-2022, 01:34 PM
Vince has had to close the corona thread so we should attempt to keep this Labour conversation civil.
We need this platform to express how our politicians perform.

nztx
23-01-2022, 05:19 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/covid-19-omicron-variant-jacinda-ardern-cancels-wedding-as-country-moves-to-red/X22AEDQESJNQUJZOO5WPNQRPZI/

Wedding postponed - Cindy is so predictable. The spin mistress only ever has one thing on her mind - how to milk anything for electoral advantage.

If she could create disasters, she would do a Christchurch event every year.


Wasn't All away on holiday enough of creating a further looming disaster ? ;)

Never mind - Grant still has $4 Bills of the fund in kitty to throw around,
not that that will go far :)

then what ? .. "You're all on your own" ? ;)

nztx
23-01-2022, 05:30 PM
Wonder if Robertson has put in the new Order of a further $100 Bills in with
Adrian Orr for some creative shuffling to cover another 18 months of
Labour tiptoeing on Lilly pads ? ;)

Panda-NZ-
23-01-2022, 10:17 PM
It makes sense to postpone something with a large crowd size.

Bjauck
24-01-2022, 08:09 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/covid-19-omicron-variant-jacinda-ardern-cancels-wedding-as-country-moves-to-red/X22AEDQESJNQUJZOO5WPNQRPZI/

Wedding postponed - Cindy is so predictable. The spin mistress only ever has one thing on her mind - how to milk anything for electoral advantage.

If she could create disasters, she would do a Christchurch event every year. The National Party just elect a new leader to create a disaster...no need for them to have to deal with the real World and Covid variants.

iceman
24-01-2022, 08:14 AM
The National Party just elect a new leader to create a disaster...no need for them to have to deal with the real World and Covid variants.

Do you think the Government is "dealing with it" ? Or just delaying the inevitable at a huge toll for tens of thousands of people and businesses ?

Balance
24-01-2022, 08:51 AM
Can’t have Cindy’s ‘go to reporter’ Tova be subjected to a commercially agreed and contracted restraint of trade for 3 months so Labour wants to get the law changed.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/127573787/contract-clauses-like-tova-obriens-hurting-lowwage-workers-says-mp-calling-for-ban

Shows how top of mind & critical friendly reporters are to the spin mistress and her team of nincompoops.

winner69
24-01-2022, 09:33 AM
Apparently coverage of Waitangi Day events at Waitangion TV is pretty special this year

Even the Navy was there last week as part of the filming ,..along with the PM.

Bjauck
24-01-2022, 09:52 AM
Do you think the Government is "dealing with it" ? Or just delaying the inevitable at a huge toll for tens of thousands of people and businesses ?
They have had to deal with it, even if they have made a bad job of doing so and squandered any extra time NZ had before Omicron seeped through the border. They have to try to delay the inevitable because of the poor capacity of health services, and lack of booster and testing preparedness. National on the other hand have been able to luxuriate in soul-searching and in-fighting.

Panda-NZ-
24-01-2022, 10:12 AM
The National Party just elect a new leader to create a disaster...no need for them to have to deal with the real World and Covid variants.

I suppose standing outside random Auckland cafes is what counts for opposition.

It's an improvement over 6 months ago though.

fungus pudding
24-01-2022, 10:40 AM
Can’t have Cindy’s ‘go to reporter’ Tova be subjected to a commercially agreed and contracted restraint of trade for 3 months so Labour wants to get the law changed.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/127573787/contract-clauses-like-tova-obriens-hurting-lowwage-workers-says-mp-calling-for-ban

Shows how top of mind & critical friendly reporters are to the spin mistress and her team of nincompoops.

https://nopunchespulled.com/2022/01/20/world-class-cock/#more-3250

moka
24-01-2022, 11:03 AM
Do you think the Government is "dealing with it" ? Or just delaying the inevitable at a huge toll for tens of thousands of people and businesses ?I think the Government is dealing with it very well. They are learning from other countries how to handle omicron, which is an advantage for NZ. I listened to Ardern on Sunday and was impressed with how she is handling it.

The Government made a big change on Sunday and NZ will now have to learn to live with virus.

You have been wanting the Government to end restrictions and now they are moving in that direction. At the same time, they are making sure the health system is not overloaded, and that supply chains are maintained ie supermarkets are stocked. They will impose more restrictions if that happens.

It is a huge culture change for NZ and some people will be slow to adapt. Just as some people have been slow to take up the vaccine, or boosters. Elimination was a successful strategy for a while and now it is time to move on to. With omicron in the community, we just have to learn to live with it which may cost hundreds or even thousands of deaths.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/a-big-culture-shock-is-coming-new-zealands-way

Blue Skies
24-01-2022, 11:35 AM
Can’t have Cindy’s ‘go to reporter’ Tova be subjected to a commercially agreed and contracted restraint of trade for 3 months so Labour wants to get the law changed.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/127573787/contract-clauses-like-tova-obriens-hurting-lowwage-workers-says-mp-calling-for-ban

Shows how top of mind & critical friendly reporters are to the spin mistress and her team of nincompoops.


These draconian awful Restraint of Trade clauses which were introduced by National's Bill Birch if I remember correctly, are an impediment to general productivity.
People become stuck in jobs, stagnating when they have outgrown the positions they hold & want to move on.
By preventing them from earning a living for several months, they reduce the natural competition between potential employers to get the best employee possible, & allowing talent to continually rise.
While there may be a few justifiable cases, the broad brush law captured everyone, even lowly paid workers.
Just as competition between employees for the best jobs is a good thing, competition between employers for the best employees is a good thing and impediments or hurdles reduce productivity in the economy.

fungus pudding
24-01-2022, 12:07 PM
Ok, so why does it take this case impacting the smug and poisonous 'Tova O'Brien' before the PTB take a look at the law? The plebs have been stuffed by it for ages, now Princess Tova kicks up bobsy-die about it so action is taken(?) Not a good look in my view, I see she has very little support amongst the public judging from the on-line comments I've viewed but then I guess it's one rule for the elites, and another for 'the ordinaries'.

I simply cannot fathom how somebody who is obviously not completely stupid, can willingly enter an agreement - then try and get the rules changed. It's ridiclous.

davflaws
24-01-2022, 01:12 PM
I simply cannot fathom how somebody who is obviously not completely stupid, can willingly enter an agreement - then try and get the rules changed. It's ridiclous.

The key word there is "willingly". Employment Law recognises there is almost always an imbalance of power between the employer and the employee. From the Employment Relations Authority to the Employment Court and all the way up it is recognised that the choices available to workers are constrained, and that it is a legitimate function of the ERA sitting in "equity and good conscience" to determine what is "fair and reasonable"in considering whether contractual terms are enforceable. The ERA does that routinely.

You may have a moral problem when people try to overturn contracts. I don't - particularly when there is an imbalance of power involved as in an IEA.

Over the last twenty years I have advised literally hundreds of workers who signed IEAs without advice and who had only the vaguest idea of many of the provisions in a multipage boilerplated agreement.

fungus pudding
24-01-2022, 01:24 PM
The key word there is "willingly". Employment Law recognises there is almost always an imbalance of power between the employer and the employee. From the Employment Relations Authority to the Employment Court and all the way up it is recognised that the choices available to workers are constrained, and that it is a legitimate function of the ERA sitting in "equity and good conscience" to determine what is "fair and reasonable"in considering whether contractual terms are enforceable. The ERA does that routinely.

You may have a moral problem when people try to overturn contracts. I don't - particularly when there is an imbalance of power involved as in an IEA.


I certainly do. It's despicable behaviour to agree to something that binds another party and then turning against them. If there is an imbalance of power that prevents a satisfactory deal - walk away. It's not compulsory to deal.
Bash out the terms first. If you agree then sign the agreement. If not - forget it. Be a man, not a wimpy little twit.

BDL
24-01-2022, 01:40 PM
For a start I didn't really defend - just pointed out a few facts (you are correct that I don't know, any more than you, what is going on here but I don't jump to conclusions).
"Why hasn't the Govt disputed these facts?" - they don't play that game, and which facts are you talking about?
The only ones given are that the person has the accident on Tuesday and appears to have applied for an emergency MIQ spot.
There are no other facts given.

www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127559941/complications-for-9yearold-after-delay-in-surgery-on-shattered-arm

Hey dobby41, here is an update of that storey you said was probably just another beat up on this poor government. "nothing to see here", no facts you said.

BE KIND....

There is a cult that believes in magic glasses and underpants, heard of it?

Bjauck
24-01-2022, 02:27 PM
I certainly do. It's despicable behaviour to agree to something that binds another party and then turning against them. If there is an imbalance of power that prevents a satisfactory deal - walk away. It's not compulsory to deal.
Bash out the terms first. If you agree then sign the agreement. If not - forget it. Be a man, not a wimpy little twit. LOL. It sounds like that is from the era of Victorian sweatshops. Those sweatshop owners fought tooth and nail against workers co-operating to try to address the power imbalance. They also relied on desperation, imbalance of information and stand-over tactics to get workers to agree to their terms of labour.

moka
24-01-2022, 02:33 PM
These draconian awful Restraint of Trade clauses which were introduced by National's Bill Birch if I remember correctly, are an impediment to general productivity.
People become stuck in jobs, stagnating when they have outgrown the positions they hold & want to move on.
By preventing them from earning a living for several months, they reduce the natural competition between potential employers to get the best employee possible, & allowing talent to continually rise.
While there may be a few justifiable cases, the broad brush law captured everyone, even lowly paid workers.
Just as competition between employees for the best jobs is a good thing, competition between employers for the best employees is a good thing and impediments or hurdles reduce productivity in the economy.“Restraints are anti-competitive,” says Hamish Kynaston, an employment law partner at Buddle Findlay. “Which is why they are considered as unlawful as a starting point – uncompetitive and against public policy.”

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/tova-obrien-a-public-face-to-the-restraint-of-trade-debate
(https://www.newsroom.co.nz/tova-obrien-a-public-face-to-the-restraint-of-trade-debate)
“To justify a restraint of trade it must be reasonably necessary to protect a proprietary interest of the employer. Commonly, an employer may have a legitimate proprietary interest in things such as its confidential information, its business strategy, and its customer relationships.

“Even with such a proprietary interest, a restraint of trade must be no wider than is reasonably necessary to protect that interest. If it is wider than is reasonably necessary it will again be unenforceable.”

moka
24-01-2022, 02:40 PM
I simply cannot fathom how somebody who is obviously not completely stupid, can willingly enter an agreement - then try and get the rules changed. It's ridiclous.The starting position is restraints of trade are prima facie unlawful because they go against the public policy of free market and free movement of labour.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/127540439/how-enforceable-are-restraints-of-trade
(https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/127540439/how-enforceable-are-restraints-of-trade)
An employer had to show it had a proprietary interest to protect, such as confidential information, and that the restraint it was trying to enforce was reasonable.

Buddle Findlay partner Hamish Kynaston​ said the restraints were common in hairdressing, along with other industries, stopping a departing hairdresser working for at a nearby salon for a period of time.

The businesses would argue the hairdresser had developed client relationships during work, and those clients were an investment for the business which was entitled to protect its property. But, clients might still decide to follow their hairdresser regardless of the legalities.

BDL
24-01-2022, 03:01 PM
The point is, why the heck did she sign/agree to it at the start?

Balance
24-01-2022, 03:10 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/tova-obrien-loses-restraint-of-trade-era-case-against-former-workplace-discovery/GAZJYRDEUHOOBE5WWGJUTQYRJI/

Tova has lost her case against Discovery and must pay costs.

fungus pudding
24-01-2022, 03:10 PM
LOL. It sounds like that is from the era of Victorian sweatshops. Those sweatshop owners fought tooth and nail against workers co-operating to try to address the power imbalance. They also relied on desperation, imbalance of information and stand-over tactics to get workers to agree to their terms of labour.

That's irrelevant to Tova O'Whatsit's situation in 2022. She's a grown woman, who should be well able to take care of herself, behaving in a cowardly sleazy manner and then engaging a lawyer to fight her battlles.

Would you sign a contract and then engage a solicitor to overturn it? Think about it.

fungus pudding
24-01-2022, 03:19 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/tova-obrien-loses-restraint-of-trade-era-case-against-former-workplace-discovery/GAZJYRDEUHOOBE5WWGJUTQYRJI/

Tova has lost her case against Discovery and must pay costs.

Excellent news. She has obviously built a following at her employers' expense. The restraint of trade clause recognises the value in that. That's what those clauses are for.

Bjauck
24-01-2022, 03:34 PM
That's irrelevant to Tova O'Whatsit's situation in 2022. She's a grown woman, who should be well able to take care of herself, behaving in a cowardly sleazy manner and then engaging a lawyer to fight her battlles. I did not realise that your post I was replying was related specifically to Tova O'Brien as you mentioned "Be a man, not a wimpy little twit." Perhaps you mis-wrote and really meant "Be a woman?" She is probably working in a field in which the employers call the shots and not to accept their terms means no work in her field of expertise.

(I think that O'Brien was the person to whom you were referring, although her Irish surname seemed to give you some trouble, perhaps you need a Te Reo transliteration? )

Bjauck
24-01-2022, 03:42 PM
...
Would you sign a contract and then engage a solicitor to overturn it? Think about it. It depends on circumstances. How desperate at the time I signed the contract - how much unemployment in that field, likelihood of finding similar employment - any undisclosed information etc.

dobby41
24-01-2022, 03:43 PM
www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127559941/complications-for-9yearold-after-delay-in-surgery-on-shattered-arm

Hey dobby41, here is an update of that storey you said was probably just another beat up on this poor government. "nothing to see here", no facts you said.

BE KIND....


Thanks - turned out fine as I suggested (she was given space - 5 days is probably pretty good for the bureaucracy (it isn't the 'Govt' per se which grants this (ie not the Ministers) - not as fast as I'd like but it did happen).

"nothing to see here" - I didn't say. You're the one that was asking the question and I answered with a view.



There is a cult that believes in magic glasses and underpants, heard of it?
No I haven't - are you a member?

Panda-NZ-
24-01-2022, 03:43 PM
(I think that O'Brien was the person to whom you were referring, although her Irish surname seemed to give you some trouble, perhaps you need a Te Reo transliteration? )

Maybe he's so old he still thinks Ireland is part of the (not so united anymore) kingdom.

Balance
24-01-2022, 04:09 PM
LOL. It sounds like that is from the era of Victorian sweatshops. Those sweatshop owners fought tooth and nail against workers co-operating to try to address the power imbalance. They also relied on desperation, imbalance of information and stand-over tactics to get workers to agree to their terms of labour.

Equating an extremely well paid high profile broadcaster trying to wriggle her way out of a binding contract she signed willingly and with full knowledge, with Victorian sweatshop laborers - this is the best you can do?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

"In his closing submissions on Thursday, Discovery’s lawyer Peter Kiely said O’Brien sought legal advice and spoke to her then-boss about the restraint of trade provisions before taking up her position as political editor in 2018.

“That's what she negotiated, that’s what she agreed to.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

Pathetic.

Balance
24-01-2022, 04:10 PM
Maybe he's so old he still thinks Ireland is part of the (not so united anymore) kingdom.

And you are still spreading your lies?

dobby41
24-01-2022, 04:14 PM
Maybe he's so old he still thinks Ireland is part of the (not so united anymore) kingdom.


And you are still spreading your lies?

It's an opinion - hence the 'maybe'.

Balance
24-01-2022, 04:19 PM
It's an opinion - hence the 'maybe'.

No need for you to jump to his defense as panda-NZ is an expert Labour shill employed to spread lies as has been demonstrated time and again.

Panda-NZ-
24-01-2022, 04:23 PM
I did assume the fungi's gender so I will apologise for that.

fungus pudding
24-01-2022, 04:31 PM
It depends on circumstances. How desperate at the time I signed the contract - how much unemployment in that field, likelihood of finding similar employment - any undisclosed information etc.

That's a pathetic attitude. It amounts to going back on your word, or being prepared to. Tha't a real no-no in my world.

Balance
24-01-2022, 04:35 PM
That's a pathetic attitude. It amounts to going back on your word, or being prepared to. Tha't a real no-no in my world.

Which is of course what Cindy & her team of incompetents do all the time - go back on their words/promises/undertakings and worse is that they then try to spin and hoodwink their way out.

Panda-NZ-
24-01-2022, 04:44 PM
Which is of course what Cindy & her team of incompetents do all the time - go back on their words/promises/undertakings and worse is that they then try to spin and hoodwink their way out.

We will not raise GST.. one year later hehe, only kidding.

dobby41
24-01-2022, 04:51 PM
Which is of course what Cindy & her team of incompetents do all the time - go back on their words/promises/undertakings and worse is that they then try to spin and hoodwink their way out.

Like saying you'd delete a post (after a faux apology) and then not doing it.

Balance
24-01-2022, 04:58 PM
We will not raise GST.. one year later hehe, only kidding.

Another lie from the resident paid Labour shill.

Working on your next lie?

Balance
24-01-2022, 05:05 PM
Like saying you'd delete a post (after a faux apology) and then not doing it.

Pathetic excuse from you to try & deflect from the broken promises and undertakings, racist policies of Cindy, the Maori cabal & her team of nincompoops.

Logen Ninefingers
24-01-2022, 05:07 PM
Failure to build anything like the 100,000 houses promised - KiwiBuild is the biggest political lie in NZ history. This government was rescued by COVID-19. Robbo is certainly happy, allows him cover to borrow $1 Billion a week with virtually no questions asked.

dobby41
24-01-2022, 05:13 PM
Pathetic excuse from you to try & deflect from the broken promises and undertakings, racist policies of Cindy, the Maori cabal & her team of nincompoops.

Not deflecting - just suggesting that you aren't averse to the same behavior that you call out (and you don't deny it either).

dobby41
24-01-2022, 05:14 PM
Failure to build anything like the 100,000 houses promised - KiwiBuild is the biggest political lie in NZ history. This government was rescued by COVID-19. Robbo is certainly happy, allows him cover to borrow $1 Billion a week with virtually no questions asked.

Not sure about a lie but it is a big failure. There is a difference.

Logen Ninefingers
24-01-2022, 05:29 PM
Not sure about a lie but it is a big failure. There is a difference.

You don't equate broken promises with lies?

How is the KiwBuild reset going btw?

Balance
24-01-2022, 05:40 PM
Not deflecting - just suggesting that you aren't averse to the same behavior that you call out (and you don't deny it either).

You are seriously suggesting that this* :


Clueless Cindy is my one source of truth.

is the equivalent of the broken promises and failed undertakings of Clueless Cindy & her team of incompetents?

Just consider two :

1. Kiwbuild & affordable housing - spectacular failures resulting in hardships & miseries for hundreds of thousands of NZers

2. Child poverty - getting worse, inflicting miseries on tens of thousands of children

* Find one poster on this forum who did not have a good chuckle over the posting, knowing full well that you would never write that even though they agree that's exactly how you think. :D

Panda-NZ-
24-01-2022, 05:46 PM
Actually, child poverty is reducing.

Plus free trades training now training a whole generation of NZers.

Balance
24-01-2022, 05:48 PM
Actually, child poverty is reducing.

Plus free trades training now training a whole generation of NZers.

Another lie from the paid resident Labour shill.

Jacinda Ardern has described child poverty as the reason why she got into politics. Grant Robertson has also mentioned the issue in his Budget Day speeches, including the various measures and targets Labour will use to hold itself accountable.

In his Budget 2019 speech, Robertson reaffirmed the Government’s promise to halve child poverty over 10 years, a back-down in itself given Labour promised Kiwis it would lift 100,000 children out of poverty by 2020. This original promise would have been a 63 per cent reduction over three years.

Using the same measure Ardern based her promise on, her Government has actually overseen an increase of 1,500 children living in poverty between 2017 and 2020 according to official Stats NZ child poverty data.

Promised a 100,000 reduction. Delivered a 1,500 increase.

Bjauck
24-01-2022, 06:00 PM
That's a pathetic attitude. It amounts to going back on your word, or being prepared to. Tha't a real no-no in my world. Contracts are not necessarily indefeasible under NZ Law. I am not sure if it is pathetic to refuse to be bound to all the terms of a contract where there has been misrepresentation, economic duress, undue influence, fraud or misrepresentation. As I say the circumstances are important.