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Balance
23-11-2020, 09:30 AM
https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/108064/pass-parcel-game-housing-continues

All talk and no substance.

All spin and no delivery.

That is Cindy - running out of excuses, and spin.

“The current housing debate has a pathetic sense of déjà vu about it. Before the 2017 election Labour successfully hyped the then housing situation into a crisis and implied it had all the answers if elected to government.

But now, one term of Labour-led government later, the situation is worse than ever. Housing prices have sky-rocketed, nowhere near enough houses are being built, and waiting lists for public housing have soared. And the responsibility for this deteriorating situation apparently lies with everyone else.”

Bjauck
23-11-2020, 10:09 AM
For a owner-occupier the gain is largely irrelevant when the realise the gain (sell) as they will probably buy another house at a similarly inflated price.
If you have more than one property then you are onto a winner. A fast rising market, tends to make progressing up the property ladder more difficult too?

It becomes particularly relevant when the home owner sells their last residence and decides to invest elsewhere or pass their assets to beneficiaries they have selected. Then bias of the tax system becomes entrenched.

It is an arbitrary distinction to tax gains from capital more leniently than gains from personal effort and other income. It is political expediency (currently anyway) and also an arbitrary distinction to treat financial equity (and annual benefit derived therefrom) in owner occupied housing differently from financial equity in taxable income producing assets. With the pricing of land currently, It boils down to an implicit government benefit for the wealthier.

dobby41
23-11-2020, 10:37 AM
A fast rising market, tends to make progressing up the property ladder more difficult too?
Not sure if that is a question or not but you are correct - it does make it more difficult.
By way of example, if your house was worth $500k and the house you aspired to was $700k you'd need an extra $200k to bridge the gap.
If all houses doubled in value you'd now need $400k to bridge the gap.


It becomes particularly relevant when the home owner sells their last residence and decides to invest elsewhere or pass their assets to beneficiaries they have selected. Then bias of the tax system becomes entrenched.

It is an arbitrary distinction to tax gains from capital more leniently than gains from personal effort and other income. It is political expediency (currently anyway) and also an arbitrary distinction to treat financial equity (and annual benefit derived therefrom) in owner occupied housing differently from financial equity in taxable income producing assets. With the pricing of land currently, It boils down to an implicit government benefit for the wealthier.

Generally most people sell their last residence AFTER they die but I agree with the rest of what you suggest.
I can live quite happily off the capital gain and pay no tax - sell a bit at a time (obviously the assets aren't property).

Bjauck
23-11-2020, 11:10 AM
...Generally most people sell their last residence AFTER they die but I agree with the rest of what you suggest.
I can live quite happily off the capital gain and pay no tax - sell a bit at a time (obviously the assets aren't property). Yep, the executors act on the deceased's orders. So it may be your last sale - unless you had already sold up to buy an ORA in a retirement village! Some emigrants also sell their last NZ residence prior to migrating with their gains.

Reverse mortgages are also an option for releasing equity for those who overcapitalise their main residence for tax efficiency.

Balance
24-11-2020, 08:58 PM
https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/108071/upsetting-new-zealand%E2%80%99s-most-significant-trading-partner-seems-very-silly-thing-do-so

Mahuta’s first foray into foreign affairs - siding with a declining empire to offend our biggest trading partner.

Good one!

fungus pudding
24-11-2020, 09:25 PM
Yep, the executors act on the deceased's orders. So it may be your last sale - unless you had already sold up to buy an ORA in a retirement village! Some emigrants also sell their last NZ residence prior to migrating with their gains.

Reverse mortgages are also an option for releasing equity for those who overcapitalise their main residence for tax efficiency.

What does 'overcapitalise their main residence for tax efficiency' mean, and how can I do it?

Bjauck
25-11-2020, 08:38 AM
What does 'overcapitalise their main residence for tax efficiency' mean, and how can I do it?

Buying as expensive a main residence as you (think you) can afford - including raiding Kiwisaver (for first home buyers), getting stonking mortgages at many multiples of income, diverting income that may have gone into a financial pension fund into payments for a house.

The reasons seem obvious with respect to the owner occupied main residence. Capital gains (often/usually leveraged too) and imputed annual net rent are tax free. These are politically untouchable. Whereas financial pension funds face annual income tax charges, and cannot be leveraged to boost capital gains. Taxable income also seems to be fair game for being taxed harder to fund covid and other expenses - so that untaxed annual benefit of home ownership will look increasingly appealing.

So worth pouring as much as possible into your house, after all you could always downsize or reverse mortgage in retirement?

In the meantime those, who are priced out of home ownership and have a term deposit in the bank earning way below the inflation rate, are taxed on that puny return.

fungus pudding
25-11-2020, 08:48 AM
Buying as expensive a main residence as you (think you) can afford - including raiding Kiwisaver (for first home buyers), getting stonking mortgages at many multiples of income, diverting income that may have gone into a financial pension fund into payments for a house.

The reasons seem obvious with respect to the owner occupied main residence. Capital gains (often/usually leveraged too) and imputed annual net rent are tax free. These are politically untouchable. Whereas financial pension funds face annual income tax charges, and cannot be leveraged to boost capital gains. Taxable income also seems to be fair game for being taxed harder to fund covid and other expenses - so that untaxed annual benefit of home ownership will look increasingly appealing.

So worth pouring as much as possible into your house, after all you could always downsize or reverse mortgage in retirement?

Yes. Thanks. Sounds great; think I'll do that.

artemis
25-11-2020, 09:14 AM
In the meantime those, who are priced out of home ownership and have a term deposit in the bank earning way below the inflation rate, are taxed on that puny return.

Also in the meantime, upgrading own home delivers a nicer place to live. Maybe much much nicer.

Bjauck
25-11-2020, 11:08 AM
Also in the meantime, upgrading own home delivers a nicer place to live. Maybe much much nicer.
If you can afford it that is true. A rapidly rising market can also stymie many homeowners who want to upgrade or get a larger house.

Compared to other OECD countries, NZ houses tend to be less insulated, less double glazed, less likely to have a central heating/air conditioning*. So residential real estate is very expensive for what you get...in my opinion.

* in my opinion. Are there any OECD studies available?

Zaphod
25-11-2020, 11:49 AM
It's becoming increasingly difficult to get any trades people to upgrade the house, let alone even repair it! Booked solid for months. One builder we approached recently has closed his order books for all of 2021, and is still receiving constant requests.

artemis
25-11-2020, 12:45 PM
It's becoming increasingly difficult to get any trades people to upgrade the house, let alone even repair it! Booked solid for months. One builder we approached recently has closed his order books for all of 2021, and is still receiving constant requests.

Our family tradies are super busy. Several years since we advertised, kept busy with existing clients and word of mouth.

Prob pay to be wary of tradies available right away! Unless it's small job that can be fitted in on a rain day.

SBQ
25-11-2020, 10:36 PM
Buying as expensive a main residence as you (think you) can afford - including raiding Kiwisaver (for first home buyers), getting stonking mortgages at many multiples of income, diverting income that may have gone into a financial pension fund into payments for a house.

The reasons seem obvious with respect to the owner occupied main residence. Capital gains (often/usually leveraged too) and imputed annual net rent are tax free. These are politically untouchable. Whereas financial pension funds face annual income tax charges, and cannot be leveraged to boost capital gains. Taxable income also seems to be fair game for being taxed harder to fund covid and other expenses - so that untaxed annual benefit of home ownership will look increasingly appealing.

So worth pouring as much as possible into your house, after all you could always downsize or reverse mortgage in retirement?

In the meantime those, who are priced out of home ownership and have a term deposit in the bank earning way below the inflation rate, are taxed on that puny return.

You got that RIGHT! dead on the head of the nail - that is exactly what i've been saying all along to couples and new investors. Don't go into Kiwi Saver or buy shares because those fund managers and pensions pay loads of taxes every year making IRD their best friend. Meanwhile the whole NZ marketing about how it's trendy to learn finance and KS (ie I see FMA's and KS funds on my Facebook feeds) makes no mention about investing into residential housing. Not a peep and when I do post about the absence of tax on residential properties and leverage... they delete my FB post. Yes facts hurt too much.

Yet people in NZ still like Jacinda - waste $ for a working tax group - they make a recommendation to put in CGT - then 2 days later Jacinda does a media release at the podium, "I'm not imposing CGT for as long as i'm in politics" - like WTF!!!??? You mean all those marketing ads of Labour Party stating "NZ needs a more fair tax system" meant nothing during her election campaign? A complete waste of time? just to get your votes and then do nothing?

stoploss
25-11-2020, 10:42 PM
You go that RIGHT! dead on the head of the nail - that is exactly what i've been saying all along to couples and new investors. Don't go into Kiwi Saver or buy shares because those fund managers and pensions pay loads of taxes every year making IRD their best friend. Meanwhile the whole NZ marketing about how it's trendy to learn finance and KS (ie I see FMA's and KS funds on my Facebook feeds) make NO work or mention about investing into residential housing. Not a peep and when I do post about the absence of tax on residential properties and leverage... they delete my FB post. Yes the truth and facts hurt too much.

Yet people in NZ still like Jacinda - waste $ for a working tax group - they make a recommendation to put in CGT - then 2 days later Jacinda does a media release at the podium, "No issue of CGT for as long as i'm in politics" - like WTF!!!??? You mean all those marketing ads of Labour Party stating "NZ needs a more fair tax system" meant nothing? A complete waste of time? just to get your votes and then do nothing?
SBQ, take an average punter puts in 20 a week to Kiwisaver, gets $ 520 tax credit a year .. 50 % return , who cares about a little tax.
Same applies for average worker they put in 3 % , Boss Has to match it , plus another $ 520 from the Govt a year , who cares about a little tax , You can't get better in the bank.
If you go into managed funds nobody matches your contribution or gives you a credit every year ...
Let alone the Homestart grant available to many ..........
Very poor advice for you to say don't go into Kiwisaver.

dobby41
26-11-2020, 09:48 AM
Yet people in NZ still like Jacinda - waste $ for a working tax group - they make a recommendation to put in CGT - then 2 days later Jacinda does a media release at the podium, "I'm not imposing CGT for as long as i'm in politics" - like WTF!!!??? You mean all those marketing ads of Labour Party stating "NZ needs a more fair tax system" meant nothing during her election campaign? A complete waste of time? just to get your votes and then do nothing?

2 days later? i don't think so but it suits your story.
She couldn't get NZ1st to buy in so knew it would fail and cut her loses - unfortunately.

Zaphod
26-11-2020, 10:34 AM
SBQ, take an average punter puts in 20 a week to Kiwisaver, gets $ 520 tax credit a year .. 50 % return , who cares about a little tax.
Same applies for average worker they put in 3 % , Boss Has to match it , plus another $ 520 from the Govt a year , who cares about a little tax , You can't get better in the bank.
If you go into managed funds nobody matches your contribution or gives you a credit every year ...
Let alone the Homestart grant available to many ..........
Very poor advice for you to say don't go into Kiwisaver.

Overall Kiwisaver returns should be viewed over a long-term horizon. When doing so, the 50% return quoted shrinks back to a much lower overall rate of return. I have had staff members query why they were not seeing growth of (in the example provided) 50% in their accounts each year, as this is how the investment was sold to them by advisors and forums on the internet. Some believed we the employer, must be somehow conning them out of money.

The contributions do of course flow from the employee regardless of source whether that be holding salaries down to compensate additional costs, or in some cases the 3% contribution from the employer has been lawfully deducted from the gross employee salary.

Another bone of contention has been that the investment is also not guaranteed, which many I have found, do not understand and are dismayed when their balances decrease.

Cullen himself has advocated in papers released subsequent to his retirement from parliament, strongly for removing of tax breaks, any government contribution, and raised concerns about the ability to use the fund for purchasing property. I doubt Labour in its current form will attempt such reform.

The decision to join KS is nuanced, however for the average person without investment acumen, and given the current environment, I would agree it is probably a good idea.

Bjauck
26-11-2020, 11:04 AM
2 days later? i don't think so but it suits your story.
She couldn't get NZ1st to buy in so knew it would fail and cut her loses - unfortunately. However Ardern went further than she needed to and she has ruled out a CGT while she is at the helm of Labour. With the vested interests of an influential segment of the current electorate (or more accurately of those who would actually turn out to vote) she knew Labour would have to rule it out to keep power. She was right too. NZ First is out of the picture now yet Ardern's No CGT position remains.

SBQ
26-11-2020, 11:22 AM
However Ardern went further than she needed to and she has ruled out a CGT while she is at the helm of Labour. With the vested interests of an influential segment of the current electorate (or more accurately of those who would actually turn out to vote) she knew Labour would have to rule it out to keep power. She was right too. NZ First is out of the picture now yet Ardern's No CGT position remains.

My point being, she knew at the time forming the coalition that NZ1st would not agree with a CGT. Yet she wasted $ by throwing out a dog bone to the public by funding a Tax Working Group. She knew the tax system was not fair in NZ ; also she knew that NZ 1st wouldn't go for CGT - then why the hell did come out with a TWG? If she more thoughtful, she did not have to say at the podium "No CGT for as long as i'm in politics"... but rather could say no CGT for this term. Who knows she may even change her mind in this term.

dobby41
26-11-2020, 11:26 AM
However Ardern went further than she needed to and she has ruled out a CGT while she is at the helm of Labour. With the vested interests of an influential segment of the current electorate (or more accurately of those who would actually turn out to vote) she knew Labour would have to rule it out to keep power. She was right too. NZ First is out of the picture now yet Ardern's No CGT position remains.

I agree - she went further than she needed to in her statement.

SBQ
26-11-2020, 11:39 AM
Overall Kiwisaver returns should be viewed over a long-term horizon. When doing so, the 50% return quoted shrinks back to a much lower overall rate of return. I have had staff members query why they were not seeing growth of (in the example provided) 50% in their accounts each year, as this is how the investment was sold to them by advisors and forums on the internet. Some believed we the employer, must be somehow conning them out of money.

The contributions do of course flow from the employee regardless of source whether that be holding salaries down to compensate additional costs, or in some cases the 3% contribution from the employer has been lawfully deducted from the gross employee salary.

Another bone of contention has been that the investment is also not guaranteed, which many I have found, do not understand and are dismayed when their balances decrease.

Cullen himself has advocated in papers released subsequent to his retirement from parliament, strongly for removing of tax breaks, any government contribution, and raised concerns about the ability to use the fund for purchasing property. I doubt Labour in its current form will attempt such reform.

The decision to join KS is nuanced, however for the average person without investment acumen, and given the current environment, I would agree it is probably a good idea.

Not to mention the matching 3% employer contribution is eroded by administrative & mgt fees by all fund managers. The investment advisor has all the incentive to get clients into their fund knowing that that this 3% is basically out for grabs. From the employer's point of view, there are no incentives for them to offer MORE than the 3% matching amount. I'm seeing growing trend of out-sourcing, out contracting the work to be done as small businesses don't want the hassles of PAYE & KS.

As for investment guarantee ; nothing in life is certain (except for death and taxes). Recent news tells me the NZ housing market is on fire and pressure has been issued to the NZ RB to try and cool it. When speaking to a real estate agent at an open home yesterday; he said the gov't tried all sorts of ways to cool housing prices in the past decade. Specifically they thought a 'foreign resident buyers ban' on NZ houses would do it (implying it was the rich Chinese that forces housing prices up). Now we see the same problem of housing prices going out of reach for the new home owner. Who is to blame and why is the gov't not doing anything about it?

The average person should get the benefit. The middle class should get the benefit of investing. But in NZ, it's only the top wealthy and high income earners that benefit (via tax free capital gains on houses). The realator also told me yesterday "Well if everyone is doing it, so should you!"

Bjauck
26-11-2020, 11:47 AM
My point being, she knew at the time forming the coalition that NZ1st would not agree with a CGT. Yet she wasted $ by throwing out a dog bone to the public by funding a Tax Working Group. She knew the tax system was not fair in NZ ; also she knew that NZ 1st wouldn't go for CGT - then why the hell did come out with a TWG? If she more thoughtful, she did not have to say at the podium "No CGT for as long as i'm in politics"... but rather could say no CGT for this term. Who knows she may even change her mind in this term.

The TWG was not just about a CGT. It had a broad remit. A chief concern was (still is) the over-reliance on income tax. The review examined ways to try to broaden the tax base. I think that it was correct to have a tax review. Any lack of political will or parliamentary authority to try to enact any of the recommendations is a separate issue. The government/electorate are obviously prepared to remain wedded to a reliance on income tax - for the time being at least.

SBQ
26-11-2020, 11:56 AM
The TWG was a waste of time and money. Over-reliance on income tax? So what does that leave? Hrm... don't think too hard.. hrm.. 'capital gains on assets' ??? Hrm. who are the ones paying not tax on the capitals gains? -> residential houses

We could go to 20% GST for consumption tax ? Not fixing the problem.

Balance
30-11-2020, 07:05 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/431739/work-to-reform-welfare-system-unjustifiably-slow-child-poverty-action-group

So 2 years after a comprehensive study and 42 recommendations to reduce child poverty, guess how many of the 42 recommendations have been fully implemented?

ZERO.

Watching her being questioned on TV3, all that Cynical Cindy could do was to grimace with her broad toothy grin and disagreed with her failings.

Enjoy the next three years, Labourites, rest of us will be busy making hay from the actions of this naive and incompetent government. :t_up:

artemis
01-12-2020, 09:56 AM
.... Enjoy the next three years, Labourites, rest of us will be busy making hay from the actions of this naive and incompetent government. :t_up:

Doing well so far. Common enough with a Labour government. Have had to make some adjustments though to pivot away from government decisions made or promised. All good (and lucrative) though.

jonu
01-12-2020, 10:44 AM
Cindy is looking to declare a "Climate Emergency" in the Parliament. What special powers will they slip in under the radar by way of the "emergency"?

fungus pudding
01-12-2020, 10:52 AM
Cindy is looking to declare a "Climate Emergency" in the Parliament. What special powers will they slip in under the radar by way of the "emergency"?


......or what are they trying to deflect attention from?

Balance
01-12-2020, 11:13 AM
......or what are they trying to deflect attention from?

Housing crisis.

Child poverty.

Maori MPs demanding more and more.

Ihumatao rearing it’s ugly head again and Cindy has nobody to blame this time.

Balance
01-12-2020, 11:38 AM
Easy $$$$ for consultants whenever Cynical Cindy opens the taxpayers' purse :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-government-paid-private-consultants-up-to-325-an-hour-to-provide-ihumatao-advice/KUBX26FCAHIDECVR37TFDVFBRE/

Paywalled

The Government has shelled out more than $150,000 to consultants to provide advice regarding the Ihumātao land dispute, with some being paid up to $325 an hour.

Despite the significant price tag, the public is still none the wiser as to what is happening when it comes to the disputed land, as the Government has stayed tight-lipped around any new developments.

iceman
01-12-2020, 01:45 PM
Easy $$$$ for consultants whenever Cynical Cindy opens the taxpayers' purse :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-government-paid-private-consultants-up-to-325-an-hour-to-provide-ihumatao-advice/KUBX26FCAHIDECVR37TFDVFBRE/

Paywalled

The Government has shelled out more than $150,000 to consultants to provide advice regarding the Ihumātao land dispute, with some being paid up to $325 an hour.

Despite the significant price tag, the public is still none the wiser as to what is happening when it comes to the disputed land, as the Government has stayed tight-lipped around any new developments.

But with this inexperienced PM rushing into this mess, all the parties involved, protesters, Tainui and FBU, all know the Government has deep pockets and have dug themselves in so deep that they can not back out. Win, win win for all the parties except us taxpayers.

Balance
01-12-2020, 03:04 PM
But with this inexperienced PM rushing into this mess, all the parties involved, protesters, Tainui and FBU, all know the Government has deep pockets and have dug themselves in so deep that they can not back out. Win, win win for all the parties except us taxpayers.

And FBU will be rubbing its hands with glee as land prices are rocketing in Auckland. Sections on average have gone up 25% in the last 4 months! In some areas, like Tamaki, land prices have put on 50%.

The longer that Cynical Cindy take to do a deal, the more $$$$ FBU will extract from the crown & taxpayers.

And does she care? She could not give a stuff as it’s not her money. Not her fault either.

jonu
01-12-2020, 03:40 PM
But with this inexperienced PM rushing into this mess, all the parties involved, protesters, Tainui and FBU, all know the Government has deep pockets and have dug themselves in so deep that they can not back out. Win, win win for all the parties except us taxpayers.

The Ihumatao fiasco should see the unravelling and exposition of Ardern for what she really is.

iceman
02-12-2020, 08:50 AM
I wish the Twyfords well in this battle https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/phil-twyford-takes-leave-from-parliament-as-wife-diagnosed-with-cancer/OUW6OTW24O6ODFQH276Y3YP7E4/

iceman
02-12-2020, 12:33 PM
Here we have the Revenue Minister threatening another tax, an increase in income tax rate on Trusts. They have also been suggesting they are looking into expanding the bright line tax from 5 years to 10 years. Bright line is an income tax.
So within one month of winning the election and making promises of NO NEW taxes and NO INCREASE in income tax apart from the increase in the top rate they indicated, they are already thinking about two more income tax increases.

https://www.interest.co.nz/news/108207/revenue-minister-david-parker-says-33-tax-rate-trusts-could-be-hiked-if-high-income

JBmurc
02-12-2020, 12:56 PM
Here we have the Revenue Minister threatening another tax, an increase in income tax rate on Trusts. They have also been suggesting they are looking into expanding the bright line tax from 5 years to 10 years. Bright line is an income tax.
So within one month of winning the election and making promises of NO NEW taxes and NO INCREASE in income tax apart from the increase in the top rate they indicated, they are already thinking about two more income tax increases.

https://www.interest.co.nz/news/108207/revenue-minister-david-parker-says-33-tax-rate-trusts-could-be-hiked-if-high-income

Nothing new with this Govt ... Lies backed by Lies .. but sadly they do have to raise revenue....they don't have a clue how to grow the NZ economy

Just spending and cheap rates .. is the mantra

borrowing money to pay interest on the DEBT can't be a smart plan long term

#1 they need to stop giving away tax payers money and loading as up with HUGE Debt ..

#2 Get out of the way of NZ business and instead of slowing it down with endless regulations - smarting up the RMA ...

jonu
02-12-2020, 09:48 PM
Cindy declares a "Climate Emergency" and requires all government agencies to phase out combustion engine cars.....days after the Police commit to a 5 year deal with Skoda for, you guessed it....combustion engine cars.

Good one Cindy. Really well thought out. Pretty much the same as your Housing policy, and your Child Poverdy policy and your Transport policy....

SBQ
02-12-2020, 11:09 PM
Here we have the Revenue Minister threatening another tax, an increase in income tax rate on Trusts. They have also been suggesting they are looking into expanding the bright line tax from 5 years to 10 years. Bright line is an income tax.
So within one month of winning the election and making promises of NO NEW taxes and NO INCREASE in income tax apart from the increase in the top rate they indicated, they are already thinking about two more income tax increases.

https://www.interest.co.nz/news/108207/revenue-minister-david-parker-says-33-tax-rate-trusts-could-be-hiked-if-high-income

My interpretation of the bright line test is none other than a holding period before IRD can look at you closely. If the all out intent was to make a profit on the purchases of the house (ie. rent it out for 5 years, do a major renovation and sell for large gains); then the bright line test means nothing. The problem is the politicians & their dog are into the tax free capital gain from investing into houses. If the gov't was serious - just start taxing every non-principal resident home ; instead of giving people the scare with bogus holding period tests or costly investigations to prove on the 'intent' of the buy / sale of the house.

Bjauck
03-12-2020, 08:29 AM
Here we have the Revenue Minister threatening another tax, an increase in income tax rate on Trusts. They have also been suggesting they are looking into expanding the bright line tax from 5 years to 10 years. Bright line is an income tax.
So within one month of winning the election and making promises of NO NEW taxes and NO INCREASE in income tax apart from the increase in the top rate they indicated, they are already thinking about two more income tax increases.

https://www.interest.co.nz/news/108207/revenue-minister-david-parker-says-33-tax-rate-trusts-could-be-hiked-if-high-income

I wonder when company tax will be hiked up as well.

Which taxes will end up paying for Covid?

artemis
03-12-2020, 10:51 AM
I wonder when company tax will be hiked up as well.

Which taxes will end up paying for Covid?

Doubt they will raise company tax due to very real real risk of capital flight if we are out of synch. Trust tax is less risky but by no means nil risk.

Zaphod
03-12-2020, 07:08 PM
Doubt they will raise company tax due to very real real risk of capital flight if we are out of synch. Trust tax is less risky but by no means nil risk.

Thereby further distorting the tax system, failing to address the real issue of housing affordability, and ignoring recommendations of the TWG. Well done Labour!

Balance
04-12-2020, 07:33 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/inside-the-labour-nz-first-coalition-government-how-bad-did-it-really-get/RARCMHGQCO7C7HLZL3CNSGMORY/

Paywalled

All the lies of Cindy - how wonderful the Coalition was going in the first 3 years.

The hypocrisy - praising Winnie to the sky the other day.

And now the betrayal and stab in the back - getting her staff to lay bare the unworkable Coalition and blaming everything on Winnie & NZ First.

Cynical Cindy - that description actually understates what kind of person she really is.

fungus pudding
04-12-2020, 08:49 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/inside-the-labour-nz-first-coalition-government-how-bad-did-it-really-get/RARCMHGQCO7C7HLZL3CNSGMORY/

Paywalled

All the lies of Cindy - how wonderful the Coalition was going in the first 3 years.

The hypocrisy - praising Winnie to the sky the other day.

And now the betrayal and stab in the back - getting her staff to lay bare the unworkable Coalition and blaming everything on Winnie & NZ First.

Cynical Cindy - that description actually understates what kind of person she really is.

URL is useless for those of us who cannot afford the subscription charge - so thanks for nothing. I will make sure to post your Christmas present to the wrong address.

dobby41
04-12-2020, 09:04 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/inside-the-labour-nz-first-coalition-government-how-bad-did-it-really-get/RARCMHGQCO7C7HLZL3CNSGMORY/

Paywalled

All the lies of Cindy - how wonderful the Coalition was going in the first 3 years.

The hypocrisy - praising Winnie to the sky the other day.

And now the betrayal and stab in the back - getting her staff to lay bare the unworkable Coalition and blaming everything on Winnie & NZ First.

Cynical Cindy - that description actually understates what kind of person she really is.

Interesting how you read the same article but got quite a different result.
You read with a different frame of mind.
Interesting how the coalition hung together for the 3 years when most gave it 6-12months at the start.

Balance
04-12-2020, 09:38 AM
URL is useless for those of us who cannot afford the subscription charge - so thanks for nothing. I will make sure to post your Christmas present to the wrong address.

$1 a week for the first 6 weeks?

Balance
04-12-2020, 09:39 AM
Interesting how you read the same article but got quite a different result.
You read with a different frame of mind.
Interesting how the coalition hung together for the 3 years when most gave it 6-12months at the start.

Kiwibuild?

Affordable housing?

Capital Gains Tax?

Eliminating & Reducing Child Poverty?

Ihumatao resolution?

Yes, we read anything related to Cynical Cindy differently - you see nothing but stars, spring and red roses in everything she does of course.

fungus pudding
04-12-2020, 09:55 AM
$1 a week for the first 6 weeks?

Too expensive.

iceman
04-12-2020, 11:42 AM
Latest social housing waiting list numbers are out. Now we have 21,415 people on it, triple what it was in September 2017 and up 1,041 in the last month.

Also a record number of people receiving emergency housing grants with a total of 9,823 people receiving such grants in the last 3 months at a cost of up to $ 922,000 per day.
Well done Labour.

jonu
04-12-2020, 01:55 PM
Latest social housing waiting list numbers are out. Now we have 21,415 people on it, triple what it was in September 2017 and up 1,041 in the last month.

Also a record number of people receiving emergency housing grants with a total of 9,823 people receiving such grants in the last 3 months at a cost of up to $ 922,000 per day.
Well done Labour.

Be gentle and kind informing the acolytes iceman. They'll struggle to digest the truth about their beloved.

Bjauck
05-12-2020, 09:11 AM
Latest social housing waiting list numbers are out. Now we have 21,415 people on it, triple what it was in September 2017 and up 1,041 in the last month.

Also a record number of people receiving emergency housing grants with a total of 9,823 people receiving such grants in the last 3 months at a cost of up to $ 922,000 per day.
Well done Labour.
Perhaps well done labour for controlling Covid. The UK has had about 60,000 deaths from covid. If NZ had had the same death rate that would have been about 5,000 mainly elderly deaths. When you take into account that many other elderly would have also had to have left their houses as a result of becoming ill but not actually dying from covid and some others suffering long-term debilitation too, that would have meant many more houses becoming available.

Lockdowns would have affected building. Also what are the Covid-era net migration figures - are there more Kiwis wishing to return to NZ as opposed to foreigners wishing to leave NZ?

However it would also be interesting to know what percentage of homes have been kept empty and if that is increasing. Certainly the combination of toughening rental housing standards, lower interest rates plus the ruling out of a CGT if the house is kept longer than 5 years and now the increased top income tax rate, may make investors consider keeping their investment housing empty for longer periods as a viable option.

iceman
05-12-2020, 11:42 AM
Controlling COVID !!!
You must have learnt from Jacinda during the election campaign when she responded to every single questions with a COVID answer. This housing crisis has been growing very fast every single month under this PM that wanted to make fixing it her top priority 3 years ago. It has steadily gotten worse and was doing so before we'd ever heard of COVID. Last numbers I saw on immigration stats actually had more people permanently leaving NZ this year than arriving and certainly did not support the extravagant claims about Kiwis returning by the tens of thousands.
Whichever way you look at it, this area has been a complete failure by the PM

Bjauck
05-12-2020, 12:00 PM
Controlling COVID !!!
You must have learnt from Jacinda during the election campaign when she responded to every single questions with a COVID answer. This housing crisis has been growing very fast every single month under this PM that wanted to make fixing it her top priority 3 years ago. It has steadily gotten worse and was doing so before we'd ever heard of COVID. Last numbers I saw on immigration stats actually had more people permanently leaving NZ this year than arriving and certainly did not support the extravagant claims about Kiwis returning by the tens of thousands.
Whichever way you look at it, this area has been a complete failure by the PM

I agree it was and is getting worse under this PM. The economic and monetary response to Covid probably aggravated a pre-exisiting situation. Successive governments have let it get worse. However would the electorate (or the part of the electorate that actually turns out to vote) have voted into office a government that had meaningful policies that tackled the housing supply and affordability crisis head on? I think the crisis will have to get worse before voters will support the changes necessary.

I am certainly glad that we had a Cindy and not a BoJo, a Donald or even a ScoMo as PM during Covid.

How Boomers changed the rules and past generations pulled up the property ladder on today's
Youth...
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/300175287/how-past-generations-pulled-up-the-property-ladder-on-todays-youth

iceman
05-12-2020, 01:07 PM
From Westpac's "Home Truths" newsletter this week:
The driver of the current increase in house prices is low
interest rates. Physical factors like net migration and housing
supply cannot be the driver right now - net migration has
been zero since April, and the construction sector is booming

fungus pudding
05-12-2020, 01:25 PM
From Westpac's "Home Truths" newsletter this week:
The driver of the current increase in house prices is low
interest rates. Physical factors like net migration and housing
supply cannot be the driver right now - net migration has
been zero since April, and the construction sector is booming

Exactly. Fungus's golden law - real estate prices and interest rates are the opposite ends of a see-saw. Remember the best time to buy real estate is when interest rates are high.

artemis
05-12-2020, 02:11 PM
From Westpac's "Home Truths" newsletter this week:
The driver of the current increase in house prices is low
interest rates. Physical factors like net migration and housing
supply cannot be the driver right now - net migration has
been zero since April, and the construction sector is booming

Also removal of LVRs temporarily. Buyers without enough cash or equity deposit, but with good serviceability, have a limited window to buy. Pushing up demand.

jonu
07-12-2020, 10:49 AM
More evidence Cindy is just a first class virtue signalling bull****ter.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/we-are-going-to-fail-smokefree-2025-goal-and-it-makes-me-furious/ar-BB1bFDQJ?ocid=msedgntp

While at the same time she voted to legalise another smoked substance. Go Cindy. Your lie quota hasn't been filled this week.

iceman
07-12-2020, 11:28 AM
More evidence Cindy is just a first class virtue signalling bull****ter.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/we-are-going-to-fail-smokefree-2025-goal-and-it-makes-me-furious/ar-BB1bFDQJ?ocid=msedgntp

While at the same time she voted to legalise another smoked substance. Go Cindy. Your lie quota hasn't been filled this week.

Or this jonu. How cynical and ruthless can a Government be. Criminally charging lifesavers to protect themselves:
Gordon Campbell: "Among other things, the WorkSafe criminal proceedings into the Whakaari /White Island disaster look like the outcome of a conscious political strategy. "

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2012/S00020/on-the-politics-of-why-were-not-getting-an-inquiry-into-the-whakaariwhite-island-disaster.htm

jonu
07-12-2020, 11:59 AM
Or this jonu. How cynical and ruthless can a Government be. Criminally charging lifesavers to protect themselves:
Gordon Campbell: "Among other things, the WorkSafe criminal proceedings into the Whakaari /White Island disaster look like the outcome of a conscious political strategy. "

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2012/S00020/on-the-politics-of-why-were-not-getting-an-inquiry-into-the-whakaariwhite-island-disaster.htm

Cindy's true colours coming to the fore. We need far more critical examination of this government than the Tova O'briens and Paddy Gowers are capable of.

Gordon Campbell has laid Ardern's cynicism bare. She clearly doesn't give a **** about those who risked their lives in the absence of leadership from the authorities. She's happy to hang them out to dry to cover her incompetent government's arse.

iceman
07-12-2020, 12:03 PM
Cindy's true colours coming to the fore. We need far more critical examination of this government than the Tova O'briens and Paddy Gowers are capable of.

Gordon Campbell has laid Ardern's cynicism bare. She clearly doesn't give a **** about those who risked their lives in the absence of leadership from the authorities. She's happy to hang them out to dry to cover her incompetent government's arse.

The message to the helicopter pilot and all the others that risked their lives to save all these people is that they should have waited while a committee of safety "experts" convened to consider whether it was safe to go onto the island. Meanwhile people lay dying in agony on the island. Absolutely appalling

dobby41
07-12-2020, 12:40 PM
Cindy's true colours coming to the fore. We need far more critical examination of this government than the Tova O'briens and Paddy Gowers are capable of.

Gordon Campbell has laid Ardern's cynicism bare. She clearly doesn't give a **** about those who risked their lives in the absence of leadership from the authorities. She's happy to hang them out to dry to cover her incompetent government's arse.

You all do realise that the prosecutions are for actions before the eruption and not for the subsequent action of some of the same people?
Are you suggesting because some of the same people put their own lives at risk after that they shouldn't be held accountable for what they may have done prior?

iceman
07-12-2020, 12:47 PM
You all do realise that the prosecutions are for actions before the eruption and not for the subsequent action of some of the same people?
Are you suggesting because some of the same people put their own lives at risk after that they shouldn't be held accountable for what they may have done prior?

Are you saying they would have been prosecuted anyway if the eruption had not happened ? I don't think so. I agree with Campbell (who normally praises Labour), this stinks of political interference. Shame on Labour.

artemis
07-12-2020, 12:57 PM
Stop The Prosecution of the Helicopter Pilots Who Saved Lives on Whakaari/White Island

Petition at change.org

jonu
07-12-2020, 12:59 PM
You all do realise that the prosecutions are for actions before the eruption and not for the subsequent action of some of the same people?
Are you suggesting because some of the same people put their own lives at risk after that they shouldn't be held accountable for what they may have done prior?

Gordon Campbell eloquently identified the cynicism of Ardern's government in making sure their own actions won't be held up to scrutiny while at the same time hanging out to dry those who acted heroically in the absence of leadership from the appropriate authorities.

Beyond Contempt!

dobby41
07-12-2020, 02:00 PM
Are you saying they would have been prosecuted anyway if the eruption had not happened ? I don't think so. I agree with Campbell (who normally praises Labour), this stinks of political interference. Shame on Labour.

No, i'm not saying that.
They would be prosecuted no matter what they did after the eruption.
Some people seem to be running the idea that because the pilot risked his life to save people after the eruption he shouldn't be prosecuted for his alledged actions prior.
Like the petition that has been organised.
I have no idea if any of the people are guilty of anything but that is for the court to test - not me. Worksafe feel that there is a case to answer.

dobby41
07-12-2020, 02:01 PM
Gordon Campbell eloquently identified the cynicism of Ardern's government in making sure their own actions won't be held up to scrutiny while at the same time hanging out to dry those who acted heroically in the absence of leadership from the appropriate authorities.

Beyond Contempt!

They aren't being prosecuted for their 'heroic actions'.

There are many analogies that could be used.

jonu
07-12-2020, 03:15 PM
They aren't being prosecuted for their 'heroic actions'.

There are many analogies that could be used.

And neither is Cindy's government being questioned for its reaction. The lack of an inquiry while going after individuals and covering their own arses is even more disgusting than their politicisation of Pike River for their own ends.

No inquiry into the Covid Response either, despite the biggest spend up of public money in our history. Do you see a picture emerging?

RTM
07-12-2020, 03:30 PM
And neither is Cindy's government being questioned for its reaction. The lack of an inquiry while going after individuals and covering their own arses is even more disgusting than their politicisation of Pike River for their own ends.

No inquiry into the Covid Response either, despite the biggest spend up of public money in our history. Do you see a picture emerging?

Is there any chance a coronial inquiry will address the issues being missed ?
I agree.....think an inquiry was needed. And maybe charges as well. Most of us have no idea if the operators were perhaps gungho about the risks....I'd like to see a forum where those issues are appropriately addressed.

Going back in history with the Helicopter Company and linking it to White Island seems wrong.

jonu
07-12-2020, 03:58 PM
The expensive stupidity and incompetence of Cindy's headline hogging "Climate Emergency" begins to emerge in detail. Aint it grand how she seeks to embellish her own standing with our money?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/300175761/police-will-have-to-buy-carbon-credits-for-new-cruisers

artemis
07-12-2020, 04:10 PM
.....
Going back in history with the Helicopter Company and linking it to White Island seems wrong.
Yes it does seem wrong, and certainly has got ordinary folk riled up.

However, Worksafe has one assumes followed the rules and cannot just overlook safety breaches it comes across while investigating. Breaches must be major if the company and other defendants are potentially up for huge fines. Enough to put them out of business or make sure in the case of scientists they CYA a lot better in future.

A few years back the NZ Initiative did a good report on scaffolding, and concluded that the rules were not and could not be justified on cost benefit grounds.

winner69
07-12-2020, 04:46 PM
Hopefully the government will close down for a few weeks over the holiday break ....and give us some peace.

RTM
07-12-2020, 06:10 PM
Hopefully the government will close down for a few weeks over the holiday break ....and give us some peace.

Do you mean from Jonu etc ?

westerly
07-12-2020, 06:47 PM
I agree it was and is getting worse under this PM. The economic and monetary response to Covid probably aggravated a pre-exisiting situation. Successive governments have let it get worse. However would the electorate (or the part of the electorate that actually turns out to vote) have voted into office a government that had meaningful policies that tackled the housing supply and affordability crisis head on? I think the crisis will have to get worse before voters will support the changes necessary.

I am certainly glad that we had a Cindy and not a BoJo, a Donald or even a ScoMo as PM during Covid.

How Boomers changed the rules and past generations pulled up the property ladder on today's
Youth...
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/300175287/how-past-generations-pulled-up-the-property-ladder-on-todays-youth

The housing crisis relates directly back to the political actions of Douglas and Richardson
and their introduction of Rogernomics policies.
“Leave it to the market” did away with the Ministry of Works and the State Advances resulting in developers no longer catering for low cost homes (built on a bare section, no garage, fencing or landscaping.) Instead they realised more money could be made building homes for the high end of the market resulting in todays crisis.
In the present political climate there is no way the State Advances or MOW departments could be reintroduced. Labour is too scared of the reaction of the low taxes brigade to take the necessary action. And National campaigned on low taxes and less government. Blame the politicians.
Blaming the so called “boomers “ is an easy cop out for the likes of opinion writers like Bernard
Hickey.

westerly

artemis
07-12-2020, 06:59 PM
Those post war babies, you know the ones that own all the rentals and wealth, will start falling off the perch in the next few years and passing down the assets. The following generation will then be blamed for pulling up the ladder. Rinse and repeat until the current first home non-buyers find themselves the target of the younger generations. The biter bit.

777
08-12-2020, 09:01 AM
Do you mean from Jonu etc ?

I hope not.

Aaron
08-12-2020, 11:03 AM
I wonder if this is the govt to turn this around.
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/kiwi-workers-not-getting-their-share-of-productivity-earnings-economist/ar-BB1bIbUK?ocid=msedgntp

Probably not the website to discuss this as this should not be a problem for rentiers.

Bjauck
08-12-2020, 12:15 PM
The housing crisis relates directly back to the political actions of Douglas and Richardson
and their introduction of Rogernomics policies.
“Leave it to the market” did away with the Ministry of Works and the State Advances resulting in developers no longer catering for low cost homes (built on a bare section, no garage, fencing or landscaping.) Instead they realised more money could be made building homes for the high end of the market resulting in todays crisis.
In the present political climate there is no way the State Advances or MOW departments could be reintroduced. Labour is too scared of the reaction of the low taxes brigade to take the necessary action. And National campaigned on low taxes and less government. Blame the politicians.
Blaming the so called “boomers “ is an easy cop out for the likes of opinion writers like Bernard
Hickey.

westerly
He went through various changes since 1984 contributing to the falling rate of ownership in the post boomer generation. He included some of the various aspects you mentioned.

Bjauck
08-12-2020, 12:26 PM
Those post war babies, you know the ones that own all the rentals and wealth, will start falling off the perch in the next few years and passing down the assets. The following generation will then be blamed for pulling up the ladder. Rinse and repeat until the current first home non-buyers find themselves the target of the younger generations. The biter bit. With current tax and policy settings will it just result in fewer real estate owning families and their descendants become bigger and richer real estate owners? A NZ landed gentry akin to the aristocratic landowners in the old country?

artemis
08-12-2020, 12:38 PM
With current tax and policy settings will it just result in fewer real estate owning families and their descendants become bigger and richer real estate owners? A NZ landed gentry akin to the aristocratic landowners in the old country?

Why wouldn't it be more like Maori land ownership, with original assets being distributed more widely each generation? Some in each generation will add to the assets, some will revert to 'shirtsleeves'. Same as for ever.

artemis
08-12-2020, 12:40 PM
I wonder if this is the govt to turn this around.
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/kiwi-workers-not-getting-their-share-of-productivity-earnings-economist/ar-BB1bIbUK?ocid=msedgntp

Probably not the website to discuss this as this should not be a problem for rentiers.

Globalisation and technology are the causes he says. Good luck turning those clocks back.

Aaron
08-12-2020, 01:31 PM
The housing crisis relates directly back to the political actions of Douglas and Richardson
and their introduction of Rogernomics policies.
“Leave it to the market” did away with the Ministry of Works and the State Advances resulting in developers no longer catering for low cost homes (built on a bare section, no garage, fencing or landscaping.) Instead they realised more money could be made building homes for the high end of the market resulting in todays crisis.
In the present political climate there is no way the State Advances or MOW departments could be reintroduced. Labour is too scared of the reaction of the low taxes brigade to take the necessary action. And National campaigned on low taxes and less government. Blame the politicians.
Blaming the so called “boomers “ is an easy cop out for the likes of opinion writers like Bernard
Hickey.

westerly

I don't know it is easy to blame the politicians but they have to pander to the voters to get elected so ultimately blame rests with the voters.

iceman
08-12-2020, 05:23 PM
The Bully in Chief forced to apologise for slander. A bit late though after destroying the guy's career and personal life. "Be kind". Yeah Right. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/trevor-mallard-apologises-for-accusing-parliamentary-staffer-of-rape/EO7VZ74CHYC5S3C42RTPDRJW5Y/

jonu
08-12-2020, 06:05 PM
The Bully in Chief forced to apologise for slander. A bit late though after destroying the guy's career and personal life. "Be kind". Yeah Right. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/trevor-mallard-apologises-for-accusing-parliamentary-staffer-of-rape/EO7VZ74CHYC5S3C42RTPDRJW5Y/

You have to ask what the hell is going on when we have someone of Mallard's limited intellectual capabilities as the Speaker of the House. The same guy who got in a fist fight with Tau Henare within Parliament Buildings. He should be embarrassed to show himself in public after what can only be called a lazy smear to inflate his own importance.

I guess he'll just return to being Defender in Chief of Cindy in the House.

jonu
08-12-2020, 08:48 PM
Cindy beginning to reap what she sowed

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/pm-fends-off-attacks-on-poverty-as-protestors-march-on-parliament-demanding-immediate-action/ar-BB1bJ65P?ocid=msedgntp

Methinks the wheels are already wobbling. Get ready to watch one of the biggest falls from grace in our political history this term.

jonu
08-12-2020, 09:04 PM
Barry Soper further exposing the cynicism of Mallard's timing of his statement.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/barry-soper-trevor-mallards-rape-accusations-could-have-been-his-undoing/6VRFBPA6667UYR2YHTPRKKI2VU/

I too wondered what expense Mallard has cost the taxpayer.

Was the falsely accused paid out for constructive dismissal or something similar?

How much did we the taxpayers fork out to cover Mallard's defamation?

What a prick Mallard was to try through the Court to have the man named. (Again at our expense)

Where is the outrage from Cindy? How far does her "kindness" extend?

artemis
09-12-2020, 07:05 AM
Barry Soper further exposing the cynicism of Mallard's timing of his statement. ....

I guess the payout (from the taxpayer) was deemed to be less than the money and especially other fallout if the case had made it to court.

Bjauck
09-12-2020, 02:28 PM
Why wouldn't it be more like Maori land ownership, with original assets being distributed more widely each generation? Some in each generation will add to the assets, some will revert to 'shirtsleeves'. Same as for ever.No doubt there are people who have the opportunity to add to their inheritance or to dissipate it - as in days of yore.

I was unaware that many non-Maori had adopted traditional Maori succession, inheritance and land law practices. Are you suggesting that Maori land law and succession should apply to all in NZ in order to try to stymie growth in inherited wealth inequality?

artemis
09-12-2020, 05:29 PM
No doubt there are people who have the opportunity to add to their inheritance or to dissipate it - as in days of yore.

I was unaware that many non-Maori had adopted traditional Maori succession, inheritance and land law practices. Are you suggesting that Maori land law and succession should apply to all in NZ in order to try to stymie growth in inherited wealth inequality?

Ever looked at a family tree and noticed what shape it takes over a few generations? It is common enough for siblings to inherit equally. Call it succession planning.

Bjauck
09-12-2020, 06:16 PM
Ever looked at a family tree and noticed what shape it takes over a few generations? It is common enough for siblings to inherit equally. Call it succession planning. So a version of the trickle down theory of tax cuts for the wealthy? So in “x” generations time the descendants of the poorest most deprived person today will inherit the riches of Warren Buffet. Ergo let today’s inequalities continue to grow.

Balance
09-12-2020, 07:02 PM
Barry Soper further exposing the cynicism of Mallard's timing of his statement.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/barry-soper-trevor-mallards-rape-accusations-could-have-been-his-undoing/6VRFBPA6667UYR2YHTPRKKI2VU/

I too wondered what expense Mallard has cost the taxpayer.

Was the falsely accused paid out for constructive dismissal or something similar?

How much did we the taxpayers fork out to cover Mallard's defamation?

What a prick Mallard was to try through the Court to have the man named. (Again at our expense)

Where is the outrage from Cindy? How far does her "kindness" extend?

Interviewed on TV tonight, Cindy said she could not comment!

WTF type of leader is she?

jonu
09-12-2020, 08:21 PM
Interviewed on TV tonight, Cindy said she could not comment!

WTF type of leader is she?

The cynical bull****ting type!

No reason why she couldn't comment around standards of behaviour expected of the Speaker and the likely massive cost to the taxpayer due to Mallard being a monumental tosser.

Go Cindy....keep up the kindness and dishing out the lollies while the people you are meant to serve get further squeezed out of the housing market.

Ihumatao? When do you reckon she might find it possible to comment on the next cockup off the ramp?

iceman
10-12-2020, 06:35 PM
Another highly efficient Government department racking up Billions of dollars in depth with hundreds of snouts in the trough and little positive action. https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/property/shy-of-housing-targets-but-kainga-ora-still-paying-top-dollar

Balance
10-12-2020, 08:36 PM
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/12/covid-19-newshub-investigation-reveals-authorities-were-close-to-losing-control-during-august-coronavirus-outbreak.html

Cover up and bs from Cindy & Hipkins.

iceman
10-12-2020, 08:56 PM
Sorry my slow internet double posted. Deleted

jonu
10-12-2020, 09:01 PM
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/12/covid-19-newshub-investigation-reveals-authorities-were-close-to-losing-control-during-august-coronavirus-outbreak.html

Cover up and bs from Cindy & Hipkins.

Why would we believe anything Hipkins tells us from now on when he was so clearly misleading us then?

Bjauck
11-12-2020, 08:00 AM
Sorry my slow internet double posted. Deleted Pesky dial-up at iceman's igloo:);}

iceman
11-12-2020, 10:51 AM
Pesky dial-up at iceman's igloo:);}

You could say that. Not much better down here at Cape Horn :-)

westerly
11-12-2020, 11:43 AM
You could say that. Not much better down here at Cape Horn :-)

Blame it on Mallard and the Labour Govt. I suppose :)

westerly

jonu
11-12-2020, 01:37 PM
Thanks Trevor. The true costs of you spending our money defending your stupid arse.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/speaker-spent-333000-of-taxpayer-money-on-defamation-case-against-man-he-alleged-was-a-rapist/P2J7YX4WTQM3EZWLBCPAWPZGFM/

At least part of the cost of Mallard's big mouth revealed.

Mallard's apology means nothing until he refunds this $330k to the taxpayer.

C'mon Cindy! Where's your outrage? Where's your empathy? Where's your leadership?

Bjauck
11-12-2020, 04:01 PM
Thanks Trevor. The true costs of you spending our money defending your stupid arse.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/speaker-spent-333000-of-taxpayer-money-on-defamation-case-against-man-he-alleged-was-a-rapist/P2J7YX4WTQM3EZWLBCPAWPZGFM/

At least part of the cost of Mallard's big mouth revealed.

Mallard's apology means nothing until he refunds this $330k to the taxpayer.

C'mon Cindy! Where's your outrage? Where's your empathy? Where's your leadership?
It look likes Mallard has well cooked his goose this time! Will he be gone like the moa now?

jonu
11-12-2020, 04:10 PM
It look likes Mallard has well cooked his goose this time! Will he be gone like the moa now.

Unlikely sadly. The cynical timing of the announcement and Cindy's ducking for cover (such levels of virtue Cindy) means he will slither into the new year. A real leader would have sacked him and put the heat on him to refund the 330k. Not Cindy, not on your nelly!

Cindy has already started burning political capital.

How's Ihumatao going Cindy? How much more of our money are you going to burn for your political expediency?

Baa_Baa
11-12-2020, 04:51 PM
Unlikely sadly. The cynical timing of the announcement and Cindy's ducking for cover (such levels of virtue Cindy) means he will slither into the new year. A real leader would have sacked him and put the heat on him to refund the 330k. Not Cindy, not on your nelly!

Cindy has already started burning political capital.

How's Ihumatao going Cindy? How much more of our money are you going to burn for your political expediency?

The prime minister cannot sack the speaker of the house, as the position is elected by the house. I think she could propose a vote of no confidence which the house could decide on but I don’t know what % of the vote would be required to remove the speaker.

He’s obviously not going anywhere until pushed.

jonu
11-12-2020, 05:07 PM
The prime minister cannot sack the speaker of the house, as the position is elected by the house. I think she could propose a vote of no confidence which the house could decide on but I don’t know what % of the vote would be required to remove the speaker.

He’s obviously not going anywhere until pushed.

You're probably technically correct, but she knows she has National's and Act's backing on a no confidence vote and will never use it. Why....because she has no integrity.

iceman
11-12-2020, 10:19 PM
Blame it on Mallard and the Labour Govt. I suppose :)

westerly

I’m a bit surprised you choose to bring up Mallard the crook that has just wasted $330k and destroyed a man’s reputation. What a bloody bully and yet the “be kind” PM supports this behaviour. An utter disgrace.

It takes 39 tax payers on the average wage a whole year of work and taxes to pay for this. A bit like Winston and his frivolous court case at the start of last term

jonu
11-12-2020, 11:07 PM
I’m a bit surprised you choose to bring up Mallard the crook that has just wasted $330k and destroyed a man’s reputation. What a bloody bully and yet the “be kind” PM supports this behaviour. An utter disgrace.

It takes 39 tax payers on the average wage a whole year of work and taxes to pay for this. A bit like Winston and his frivolous court case at the start of last term

More revelations from Barry Soper, who is clearly disgusted by this whole business. Soper knows Mallard well, even spoke at his wedding,

https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2020/12/barry-soper-trevor-mallard-should.html

Mallard had the rules changed to ensure we picked up the tab. What an ****hole.

Panda-NZ-
12-12-2020, 05:09 AM
This govt isn't spending enough imo. Nat-lite.

Put the 0.5% debt interest rates we can get and dump it into the NZ super funds to counter the American bank takeover of NZ which is admittedly less bad than it would be under inter-National.

It would appear as a capital item and not debt if I'm not mistaken. Plus with the long term investment horizon they have it's a win-win scenario.

iceman
12-12-2020, 08:19 AM
More revelations from Barry Soper, who is clearly disgusted by this whole business. Soper knows Mallard well, even spoke at his wedding,

https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2020/12/barry-soper-trevor-mallard-should.html

Mallard had the rules changed to ensure we picked up the tab. What an ****hole.

What a shocking read. If Labour does not support a vote of no confidence in this corrupt bully, when Parliament resumes, they will be exposed for what they really are, cynical BS artists !

winner69
14-12-2020, 08:35 AM
Meant to find out about Ihumātao today

Leaving it so late in year means Govt hopes people won't notice and if they do forget all about it come the new year

Sneaky eh

jonu
14-12-2020, 08:53 AM
Meant to find out about Ihumātao today

Leaving it so late in year means Govt hopes people won't notice and if they do forget all about it come the new year

Sneaky eh

And the House has finished. Cindy's cynicism is boundless.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300182660/ihumtao-land-dispute-initial-deal-expected-to-go-to-cabinet-today

The blocks that Winston used were valid. Those Prinicples don't disappear just because he has. But that won't be an issue for the Cynical One. She'll get to go to Ratana and Waitangi without being jostled by the people she wrongly encouraged.

If they invoke the Housing Act as mentioned in the article, with no intention of building a meaningful number of houses, it will be as dishonest as many of the historic government injustices that the Treaty Claim process is trying to rectify.

What a mess our Bull****ter in Chief has created.

jonu
14-12-2020, 05:30 PM
Our country now dances to the tune of a troubled teenager.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/123696411/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-responds-to-greta-thunbergs-jab-at-nzs-socalled-climate-emergency

How could this possibly go wrong?

iceman
14-12-2020, 07:05 PM
Our country now dances to the tune of a troubled teenager.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/123696411/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-responds-to-greta-thunbergs-jab-at-nzs-socalled-climate-emergency

How could this possibly go wrong?

Like kids in a sandpit. Our PM does n't let us down with her plain speaking and the clear goals she sets :-) :-)
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern responded to Thunberg’s comments by saying New Zealand had bigger goals than that one target.

“If that was the sum ambition of any government, then that would be worthy of criticism; it is not our sum ambition and it is not the totality of our plans on climate change,” she said.

“But again, I think that it is actually for us just to get on with the business of fulfilling our obligations and expectations.”

Balance
14-12-2020, 08:07 PM
“Reports that the Cabinet will today rubber stamp the Government buying Fletcher Building out of Ihumatao is a terrible step toward formalising Jacinda Ardern’s worst decision as Prime Minister,” says ACT Leader David Seymour.

“If you own land and someone squats on it, the Prime Minister won’t defend your property rights, she’ll use taxpayers’ money to buy the land off you.

“What a terrible signal this sends agitators who decide to disregard the legally binding treaty settlement process.

“The Prime Minister’s job is to uphold the law, and none more so than private property rights.

“Instead she has thumbed her nose at the very legal framework that was designed with Maori and has worked so effectively to right past wrongs.

“By doing what she considered to be the popular thing rather than the right thing, Jacinda Ardern has not only legitimised an illegal protest, she has sent a message that her Government is vulnerable to further illegal actions.

dobby41
15-12-2020, 08:17 AM
Our country now dances to the tune of a troubled teenager.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/123696411/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-responds-to-greta-thunbergs-jab-at-nzs-socalled-climate-emergency

How could this possibly go wrong?

I didn't see any dancing.
Someone has a comment - someone else is asked about and they give a comment.
I doubt Jacinda is sweating on what Greta thinks or tweets.

Bjauck
15-12-2020, 08:43 AM
Our country now dances to the tune of a troubled teenager.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/123696411/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-responds-to-greta-thunbergs-jab-at-nzs-socalled-climate-emergency

How could this possibly go wrong?

Unlike Greta, they have to deal with the practicalities of policy administration. I doubt they will dance to her tune. The government find it difficult put into effect their own aims and goals let alone Greta's!

Balance
15-12-2020, 08:43 AM
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/ardern-reaffirms-confidence-in-trevor-mallard-speaker-he-ducks-330k-defamation-case-fee

Cindy tells NZers to get stuffed - she is standing with Trevor Mallard.

What a kind and considerate person is she!

dobby41
15-12-2020, 09:54 AM
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/ardern-reaffirms-confidence-in-trevor-mallard-speaker-he-ducks-330k-defamation-case-fee

Cindy tells NZers to get stuffed - she is standing with Trevor Mallard.

What a kind and considerate person is she!

Don't forget who signed off on the Crown covering the costs - a National MP.
She, also, got the rules changed so that the speaker was included in the MP and Minister Govt coverage of court costs (though some say that the speaker was already covered and this just made the existing situation clearer).

Balance
15-12-2020, 10:06 AM
Don't forget who signed off on the Crown covering the costs - a National MP.
She, also, got the rules changed so that the speaker was included in the MP and Minister Govt coverage of court costs (though some say that the speaker was already covered and this just made the existing situation clearer).

Not true and it's so typical of Cindy's apologists like you, dobby41, to try and spread misinformation.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/rules-quietly-changed-so-taxpayer-coughs-up-for-cost-of-mps-court-settlements/TNK2HUS3VWWN3DCGIYXLG2J6VU/

Excerpt :

"At the same time Speaker Trevor Mallard was being sued for defamation, he changed the rules so other MPs could also have theirs covered by the taxpayer without disclosing it publicly.

National and Act leaders yesterday said they no longer had confidence in the Speaker after he revealed he'd cost the taxpayer more than $330,600 settling a case after incorrectly calling a former Parliamentary staffer a rapist.

It has also now come to light that the rules for when MPs can claim legal costs when they're being sued were expanded by the Speaker in August so damages and settlements can come from the public purse.

Those applications have to be signed off by the party leader, the Speaker and chief executive of Parliamentary Service."

DISGUSTING - just like Cynical Cindy.

fungus pudding
15-12-2020, 10:22 AM
Not true and it's so typical of Cindy's apologists like you, dobby41, to try and spread misinformation.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/rules-quietly-changed-so-taxpayer-coughs-up-for-cost-of-mps-court-settlements/TNK2HUS3VWWN3DCGIYXLG2J6VU/

Excerpt :

"At the same time Speaker Trevor Mallard was being sued for defamation, he changed the rules so other MPs could also have theirs covered by the taxpayer without disclosing it publicly.

National and Act leaders yesterday said they no longer had confidence in the Speaker after he revealed he'd cost the taxpayer more than $330,600 settling a case after incorrectly calling a former Parliamentary staffer a rapist.

It has also now come to light that the rules for when MPs can claim legal costs when they're being sued were expanded by the Speaker in August so damages and settlements can come from the public purse.

Those applications have to be signed off by the party leader, the Speaker and chief executive of Parliamentary Service."

DISGUSTING - just like Cynical Cindy.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018777213/anne-tolley-expected-trevor-mallard-s-defamation-case-to-be-costly-when-she-signed-it-off

Balance
15-12-2020, 10:23 AM
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/ardern-reaffirms-confidence-in-trevor-mallard-speaker-he-ducks-330k-defamation-case-fee

Cindy tells NZers to get stuffed - she is standing with Trevor Mallard.

What a kind and considerate person is she!

Which part of Trevor Mallard destroying an innocent man's life does Cindy not appreciate or understand?

Stand with the weak & oppressed, show kindness and compassion? Not Cindy in real life - she is but one cynical politician like them all. :t_down:

dobby41
15-12-2020, 11:00 AM
Not true and it's so typical of Cindy's apologists like you, dobby41, to try and spread misinformation.

Be careful what you read and when.
Typical of you to stop at the first article that supported your position.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/12/former-deputy-speaker-anne-tolley-expected-trevor-mallard-s-legal-dispute-to-be-costly-when-agreeing-to-it.html


Tolley, a former National MP, changed the rules last year while she was Deputy Speaker so Speakers, including Mallard, would have access to the same legal financial support as ministers.

She later signed off on the use of taxpayer money being used to cover Mallard's legal bill.

Tolley told RNZ Mallard made the comments as speaker and had no protection when legal action was taken against him.

There was then a discussion about whether the speaker should qualify for legal financial support as he was "essentially the minister of Parliamentary Services, he's responsible for the management of Parliament."

"It didn't seem right that there was not a similar protection for him," she told RNZ.

Balance
15-12-2020, 11:34 AM
Be careful what you read and when.
Typical of you to stop at the first article that supported your position.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/12/former-deputy-speaker-anne-tolley-expected-trevor-mallard-s-legal-dispute-to-be-costly-when-agreeing-to-it.html

Changes nothing - why is Cynical Cindy standing by him?

Which part of bullying, destroying a person’s life and getting off scot free in the land of kindness and compassion does Cindy not get?

jonu
15-12-2020, 11:56 AM
Be careful what you read and when.
Typical of you to stop at the first article that supported your position.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/12/former-deputy-speaker-anne-tolley-expected-trevor-mallard-s-legal-dispute-to-be-costly-when-agreeing-to-it.html

Why would the Speaker need the same protection? The speaker is meant to be neutral, not some malicious, accusatory SOB maligning and bullying others while he is presiding over a review to stop those very things.

Was Tolley acting on Mallard's request?

What value can we place on Mallard's apology when it is the taxpayer that bears the cost of his malicious idiocy?

How can Ardern maintain confidence in a malicious, vindictive Speaker? Remember Mallard, again at our expense, tried to have the person named.

Ardern is burning political capital, but she needs Mallard's protection in the House. That's where her motivation truly lies. To hell with principle.

Balance
15-12-2020, 12:34 PM
How can Ardern maintain confidence in a malicious, vindictive Speaker? Remember Mallard, again at our expense, tried to have the person named.

Ardern is burning political capital, but she needs Mallard's protection in the House. That's where her motivation truly lies. To hell with principle.

Let her burn political capital.

She can only fool so many people for so long - shxt stinks and it is a matter of time before the putrid smell comes out.

dobby41
15-12-2020, 01:24 PM
Why would the Speaker need the same protection? The speaker is meant to be neutral, not some malicious, accusatory SOB maligning and bullying others while he is presiding over a review to stop those very things.
So you are saying that the others who have protection are "malicious, accusatory SOB maligning and bullying" since they require the protection?
By the way - I'm not defending Mallard at all and I'd like to see him gone.


Was Tolley acting on Mallard's request?
I think she has a mind of her own - she isn't silly!


What value can we place on Mallard's apology when it is the taxpayer that bears the cost of his malicious idiocy?

How can Ardern maintain confidence in a malicious, vindictive Speaker? Remember Mallard, again at our expense, tried to have the person named.

Ardern is burning political capital,
Agreed (I removed the last part of what you said because I don't agree with your conjecture).

westerly
15-12-2020, 06:28 PM
Let her burn political capital.

She can only fool so many people for so long - shxt stinks and it is a matter of time before the putrid smell comes out.

One can only wonder at the vitriol in the comments of jonu and balance and the motivation behind them?
Of more importance in the Mallard case is the amount of money paid to the lawyers which exceeds
all other costs. The inability to pay legal costs prevents many from obtaining advice and representation and justice. An enquiry into the legal profession's charges is long overdue.

westerly

jonu
15-12-2020, 06:49 PM
One can only wonder at the vitriol in the comments of jonu and balance and the motivation behind them?
Of more importance in the Mallard case is the amount of money paid to the lawyers which exceeds
all other costs. The inability to pay legal costs prevents many from obtaining advice and representation and justice. An enquiry into the legal profession's charges is long overdue.

westerly

I don't disagree with the general sentiment about the legal profession, however the more immediate problem is the malicious prick who is currently Speaker of the House and still has the confidence of our luvvy luvvy, be kind PM.

Remember Mallard did this on the back of a Review into behavioural standards in Parliament Buildings.

fungus pudding
15-12-2020, 06:55 PM
One can only wonder at the vitriol in the comments of jonu and balance and the motivation behind them?
Of more importance in the Mallard case is the amount of money paid to the lawyers which exceeds
all other costs. The inability to pay legal costs prevents many from obtaining advice and representation and justice. An enquiry into the legal profession's charges is long overdue.

westerly

Just ask your law firm for a breakdown of their charges. That's all the enquiring you need. If you don't like the answer - go elsewhere.

iceman
16-12-2020, 02:35 AM
Interesting statistics. Different to other countries, the huge increase in debt in NZ is all household and Government, not corporates. Canada doing really well !!
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/m-debt-to-gdp-rise-around-the-world-1.png

dobby41
16-12-2020, 08:11 AM
Changes nothing - why is Cynical Cindy standing by him?

Which part of bullying, destroying a person’s life and getting off scot free in the land of kindness and compassion does Cindy not get?

We will have to see how this plays out - it isn't over yet.
Buy Anne had a big part to play in changing the rules and allowing the tax payer to pay but you just can't or won't see it.
Expect Labour to play this angle up - it is politics after all.

iceman
16-12-2020, 09:32 AM
We will have to see how this plays out - it isn't over yet.
Buy Anne had a big part to play in changing the rules and allowing the tax payer to pay but you just can't or won't see it.
Expect Labour to play this angle up - it is politics after all.

dobby41 I think you are missing the main point, which is that Mallard falsely accused a person of a serious crime and destroyed his career and severely upset his personal life. He didn't need help from anyone. Did it all by himself. He even went further and never showed any contrition and tried, thankfully unsuccessfully, to have the man's name made public. What sort of perverse and sick person would do that. He has shown himself completely unsuitable for the Speaker's role and Jacinda should be ashamed of herself for supporting him. But then again, she owes him for all the protection he's given her in parliament.

Balance
16-12-2020, 07:42 PM
Deleted

Deleted

Balance
17-12-2020, 08:29 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300185811/government-forecasts-five-years-of-house-price-growth-outstripping-wage-growth

Runaway house prices - Cynical Cindy berated the previous government for a housing crisis and now, she does not have a clue how to tackle the housing disaster under her watch.

The Government’s top economists have warned that house prices are likely to keep rising “for some time” as Treasury released its latest set of economic forecasts showing a nightmare scenario of house prices rising at about twice the rate of wages for the next five years.

Balance
17-12-2020, 08:31 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/barry-soper-trevor-mallard-raises-more-questions-than-he-answers/FNAUN3FVPGATPS4JDX6Q6SDCNQ/

The Trevor Mallard scandal laid bare.

Excerpts :

"Mallard's excuse for the rules being changed to make the taxpayer pick up the tab for his uncontrolled outburst was lame. Because he was facing the defamation action, that he must have known he would lose considering he knew the rape claim was wrong, he handed responsibility for the rule change over to his deputy, former National MP Anne Tolley.

It removed any conflict of interest, he claimed. Yeah right."

"Mallard told a shocked Parliamentary select committee that he knew within 24 hours that his rape claim was false. Well if that's the case why didn't he retract the claim and save the taxpayer almost $334,000? He said he didn't do that because the inquiry into the cuddle was being reinvestigated. That was reinforced by the head of Parliamentary services which carried out the original inquiry and found it was unsubstantiated."

"Truth is more likely that he withdrew his rape claim now because if he did it last year chances are he wouldn't have survived a no-confidence vote in his Speakership. New Zealand First wouldn't have supported him.

Next year he'll survive a vote with Labour's majority and with mother of kindness, well-being and transparency Jacinda Ardern saying he simply made a mistake and he's the man for the job. The man he maligned is out of a job and if now suffering ill health."

winner69
17-12-2020, 08:45 AM
Balance - somebody had the audacity to ask Adhern the other day about the report on the Labour Party camp scandal

dobby41
17-12-2020, 09:09 AM
A look back at politics in 2020
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/12/watch-covid-coups-conspiracies-scandal-screw-ups-leaks-lies-lockdowns-leadership-decision-2020-was-the-most-wild-ride.html

Balance
18-12-2020, 06:27 AM
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/opinion/mike-yardley-jacinda-ardern-is-playing-a-very-dangerous-game-with-ihumatao-dispute/

Ihumatao ‘settled’ with our money - breaching the sanctity of Treaty Settlements & private land ownership.

And note that the Cynical one was nowhere to be seen at the announcement?

Cindy is too PR & image conscious to let mud stick to her face but stick it will. Ihumatao will not be forgotten.

artemis
18-12-2020, 06:47 AM
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/opinion/mike-yardley-jacinda-ardern-is-playing-a-very-dangerous-game-with-ihumatao-dispute/

Ihumatao ‘settled’ with our money - breaching the sanctity of Treaty Settlements & private land ownership.

And note that the Cynical one was nowhere to be seen at the announcement?

Cindy is too PR & image conscious to let mud stick to her face but stick it will. Ihumatao will not be forgotten.

The next few years will deliver to we the people a whole lot of Ihumatao entertainment. And related occupations as well, watch this space. Expensive entertainment for sure, and not necessarily fun, but popcorn futures will be through the roof.

Ms Ardern in 2020 promised sticky initiatives - policies and spending that will be hard to reverse under a new government. Delivering on that quite well so far.

jonu
18-12-2020, 08:40 AM
The next few years will deliver to we the people a whole lot of Ihumatao entertainment. And related occupations as well, watch this space. Expensive entertainment for sure, and not necessarily fun, but popcorn futures will be through the roof.

Ms Ardern in 2020 promised sticky initiatives - policies and spending that will be hard to reverse under a new government. Delivering on that quite well so far.

Indeed, the message has been sent. If you want to make a name for yourself go and occupy a piece of land, call Cindy's bluff and see what happens. Election year will add to your chances. From what has been revealed, the deal doesn't seem significantly different from the previous. Only, we will be paying for it. Strange, on land that was deemed too significant to be built on by the Occupiers.

But never mind, Cindy got most of her Maori seats....job done. Go Cindy.

dobby41
18-12-2020, 12:56 PM
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/opinion/mike-yardley-jacinda-ardern-is-playing-a-very-dangerous-game-with-ihumatao-dispute/

Ihumatao ‘settled’ with our money - breaching the sanctity of Treaty Settlements & private land ownership.

The Govt brought the land - nothing else has happened (yet).
Really the issue started back in 2012 when the Environment Court forced the council to rezone the land to commercial or residential after they wanted to make it public space.
The nail in the coffin was National making it a Special Housing Area in 2014.

iceman
18-12-2020, 10:04 PM
I see our very experienced Foreign Minister has suggested NZ could help negotiations to relieve tensions between China & Australia. China has told her to stay out of it. I hope she heeds it and keeps her mouth shut. It has nothing to do with her and she has no experience or qualifications to get involved but could potentially do enormous harm to our exporters. I suggest she goes and does what the rest of her Whanau is doing, getting Government money for Ihumatao. That's an easy one for her to achieve.

tim23
18-12-2020, 10:24 PM
Indeed, the message has been sent. If you want to make a name for yourself go and occupy a piece of land, call Cindy's bluff and see what happens. Election year will add to your chances. From what has been revealed, the deal doesn't seem significantly different from the previous. Only, we will be paying for it. Strange, on land that was deemed too significant to be built on by the Occupiers.

But never mind, Cindy got most of her Maori seats....job done. Go Cindy.

What an idiotic comment - you and your mate imbalance are in a huge minority (non Labour voters) - you are yesterdays people

Balance
20-12-2020, 09:34 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/heather-du-plessis-allan-ihumatao-decision-only-the-beginning/GZPQ4TGQ3NFOTOQG52QXKMDDYI/

Paywalled

Ihumatao - ultimate betrayal of the principles of treaty settlement & private land rights.

All for the Maori votes so Cindy can stay in power.

Excerpt : "They* have shown their ability to flex their muscles and make demands, including forcing Kelvin Davis into Labour's No 2 position, and possibly also leveraging Nanaia Mahuta into the foreign affairs portfolio despite her lack of qualification for the role.

Exerting power isn't a bad thing. Any grouping within a caucus is entitled to (and should) use that size to further its own goals, whether it be a group of rural MPs, urban MPs, liberals, conservatives, or, in this case, Māori MPs.

What's tricky is when the goals of that grouping don't align with the goals of the wider party. And that seems the case with Labour. The Ihumātao decision is one the Māori caucus will see as a win, but one Jacinda Ardern doesn't even want to answer questions about.

Expect more of this. There are probably more controversial te ao Māori decisions than Christmases left between now and 2023's election."

* Maori MPs

jonu
20-12-2020, 10:25 PM
What an idiotic comment - you and your mate imbalance are in a huge minority (non Labour voters) - you are yesterdays people

How about justifying "idiotic" with some well reasoned logic instead of making an arse of yourself.

jonu
20-12-2020, 10:27 PM
The latest display of cynicism from this arrogant regime.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300188106/government-dumps-damning-health-report-on-last-day-of-the-year

Enjoy the warm fuzzies while they last folks. The winter of discontent will bite.

dobby41
21-12-2020, 09:06 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/heather-du-plessis-allan-ihumatao-decision-only-the-beginning/GZPQ4TGQ3NFOTOQG52QXKMDDYI/

Paywalled

Ihumatao - ultimate betrayal of the principles of treaty settlement & private land rights.

All for the Maori votes so Cindy can stay in power.

Excerpt : "They* have shown their ability to flex their muscles and make demands, including forcing Kelvin Davis into Labour's No 2 position, and possibly also leveraging Nanaia Mahuta into the foreign affairs portfolio despite her lack of qualification for the role.

Exerting power isn't a bad thing. Any grouping within a caucus is entitled to (and should) use that size to further its own goals, whether it be a group of rural MPs, urban MPs, liberals, conservatives, or, in this case, Māori MPs.

What's tricky is when the goals of that grouping don't align with the goals of the wider party. And that seems the case with Labour. The Ihumātao decision is one the Māori caucus will see as a win, but one Jacinda Ardern doesn't even want to answer questions about.

Expect more of this. There are probably more controversial te ao Māori decisions than Christmases left between now and 2023's election."

* Maori MPs

An opinion from a very opinionated anti Labour (actually she appears to be anti everything) person.
On her radio show she often dresses opinion up as fact.

Balance
21-12-2020, 05:42 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/300189972/admiration-nation-which-is-the-economists-country-of-the-year

And for the record, Taiwan beats NZ hands down as far as managing the pandemic is concerned - less deaths and no disruption to its economy.

Self praise is no praise.

dobby41
21-12-2020, 06:08 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/300189972/admiration-nation-which-is-the-economists-country-of-the-year

And for the record, Taiwan beats NZ hands down as far as managing the pandemic is concerned - less deaths and no disruption to its economy.

Self praise is no praise.
Thumbs up to Taiwan - but we aren't them and our living and values aren't the same.
We are similar to Aussie and we have done better than them - the ones you thought, at one time, we should follow.

Balance
21-12-2020, 06:39 PM
Thumbs up to Taiwan - but we aren't them and our living and values aren't the same.
We are similar to Aussie and we have done better than them - the ones you thought, at one time, we should follow.

But for the grace of God or whosoever, Labour’s multiple quarantine stuff-ups could have landed us the same as Oz. And we know that there are multiple failures because the report is out, after the election and during the silly season. Cover up seems to be the modus operandi now of this government.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/12/coronavirus-govt-releases-simpson-roche-report-into-covid-19-response-funds-another-18-months-of-miq.html

Remember how your Cynical Cindy promised transparency and accountability?

As I wrote, for the record so no one can write any more that NZ beat every other country in the world in handling the pandemic.

dobby41
22-12-2020, 08:08 AM
But for the grace of God or whosoever, Labour’s multiple quarantine stuff-ups could have landed us the same as Oz. And we know that there are multiple failures because the report is out, after the election and during the silly season. Cover up seems to be the modus operandi now of this government.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/12/coronavirus-govt-releases-simpson-roche-report-into-covid-19-response-funds-another-18-months-of-miq.html

Remember how your Cynical Cindy promised transparency and accountability?

As I wrote, for the record so no one can write any more that NZ beat every other country in the world in handling the pandemic.

Mistakes were made, mistakes were fixed.
Learning as they went we are now in a good space but with the probability of having more cases in the community at some stage.
When I wrote this previously you accused me pre-excusing the Govt for their cock-ups. History has shown that mistakes happen everywhere because the systems are run by humans and humans are fallible.
You seem to lack the ability to think rationally and are driven by your hatred of Jacinda. You still create labels like Trump does. In fact, you display a lot of Trump like characters.

You need to take a break and find your balance.

Balance
22-12-2020, 08:16 AM
Mistakes were made, mistakes were fixed.
Learning as they went we are now in a good space but with the probability of having more cases in the community at some stage.
When I wrote this previously you accused me pre-excusing the Govt for their cock-ups. History has shown that mistakes happen everywhere because the systems are run by humans and humans are fallible.
You seem to lack the ability to think rationally and are driven by your hatred of Jacinda. You still create labels like Trump does. In fact, you display a lot of Trump like characters.

You need to take a break and find your balance.

On the contrary, I do not make promises and articulate high principles like transparency and accountability in government and then, cynically break said promises and go back on said principles.

You may have low aspirations of your leaders which tells a lot about who and what you are but there are those of us who still believe in some basic values and principles.

Cynical Cindy - you are welcome to her.

dobby41
22-12-2020, 08:22 AM
On the contrary, I do not make promises and articulate high principles like transparency and accountability in government and then, cynically break said promises and go back on said principles.

Cynical Cindy - you are welcome to her.

You have her - get over it.
Take a break and get your balance back.

Balance
22-12-2020, 08:43 AM
You have her - get over it.
Take a break and get your balance back.

I am perfectly at peace with myself.

Thanks for your concern but I have greater concerns for the future of NZ, especially the gullible youth when a Cynical leader is held up by the likes of you as great for NZ.

Housing crisis is now a full blown housing disaster and not a word from the likes of you.

dobby41
22-12-2020, 09:10 AM
I am perfectly at peace with myself.

Thanks for your concern but I have greater concerns for the future of NZ, especially the gullible youth when a Cynical leader is held up by the likes of you as great for NZ.

Housing crisis is now a full blown housing disaster and not a word from the likes of you.

There have been words from me - I just don't harp on like some demented fool.

Housing is a big problem but what is the solution?
I still like the idea of building more houses and would prefer the Govt just stuck to building Kainga Ora houses.
Go back to the 'good old days' where the low income rented from the state and those who could afford it rented privately.
The rot set is when Housing Corp went to 'market rent' and accommodation supplements that were available to private landlords (or people renting via private landlords). Housing Corp moved away from their decades old purpose of providing housing to the less well off.

They could assist FHB to get a deposit by offering shared equity and the like but that just increases pressure on what is still a restricted resource - houses.
Removing the RMA isn't the answer because it isn't really the problem - it doesn't help but people who think just removing RMA requirements will 'solve' the issue are deluded.

The issues started a long way back and National saying that there wasn't a problem didn't help anything - it wasted years.
Labour tried with KiwiBuild (and failed dismally) but it was never going to work as the target was just stupid (lack of tradies etc).

dobby41
22-12-2020, 10:14 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/300189972/admiration-nation-which-is-the-economists-country-of-the-year

And for the record, Taiwan beats NZ hands down as far as managing the pandemic is concerned - less deaths and no disruption to its economy.

Self praise is no praise.

This is an interesting study in the response of NZ and Taiwan from Lancet (so a bit of heft and rigor)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanwpc/article/PIIS2666-6065(20)30044-4/fulltext

Probably the most fundamental difference between the situation of Taiwan and New Zealand was that in Taiwan responsiveness to pandemic diseases and similar threats is embedded in its national institutions. Taiwan established a dedicated CDC in 1990 to combat the threat of communicable diseases. By contrast, the equivalent organisation in New Zealand (the NZ Communicable Disease Centre, a business unit within the Department of Health) was closed in 1992 with its functions transferred to a newly formed Crown Research Institute (ESR) and then contracted back to what became the Ministry of Health. In addition, Taiwan established a National Health Command centre (NHCC) in 2004 following the SARS epidemic. This agency, working in association with the CDC, was dedicated to responding to emerging threats, such as pandemics, and given the power to coordinate work across government departments and draw on additional personnel in an emergency.

In short, they learnt a lot from SARS but we didn't (or maybe because it didn't affect us much we didn't need to since we only had 1 case reported).

I do wonder if people here would have accepted mass masking and cell phone tracking from the outset - I suspect not.
Taiwan, with their SARS history, were more pre-disposed to accepting this as 'normal'.

artemis
22-12-2020, 10:23 AM
....
Go back to the 'good old days' where the low income rented from the state and those who could afford it rented privately.
The rot set is when Housing Corp went to 'market rent' and accommodation supplements that were available to private landlords (or people renting via private landlords). Housing Corp moved away from their decades old purpose of providing housing to the less well off.... .

Not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you saying public housing should not have market rent as a max rent for the home regardless of the household income?

When the accommodation supplement came in it applied to all rents and mortgage payments based on location and household circumstances. That is no longer the case since social housing moved to income related rents. What should it be?

Can you clarify?

justakiwi
22-12-2020, 10:24 AM
OK Balance .... the reality is that it is not Jacinda who is cynical .... it is you.

Definition of “cynical” below:

cynical



(sɪnɪkəl)
1. ADJECTIVEIf you describe (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/describe) someone as cynical, you mean they believe that people always (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/always) act selfishly.
...his cynical view of the world.
Synonyms: sceptical (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/sceptical), mocking (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/mocking), ironic (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ironic), sneering More Synonyms of cynical (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-thesaurus/cynical#cynical__1)

cynicallyADVERB [ADVERB with verb]As one former customer said cynically, 'He's probably pocketed the difference!'


2. ADJECTIVE [usually verb-link ADJECTIVE]If you are cynical about something, you do not believe that it can be successful (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/successful) or that the people involved are honest (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/honest).
It's hard not to be cynical about reform. [+ about] (https://grammar.collinsdictionary.com/grammar-pattern/adj-about-n_1)
It has also made me more cynical about relationships.
Synonyms: unbelieving (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/unbelieving), sceptical (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/sceptical), disillusioned (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/disillusioned), pessimistic (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/pessimistic) More Synonyms of cynical (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-thesaurus/cynical#cynical__1)



Take a good look at the points above. You have displayed every single one of them. Over and over and over again. Your constant reference to “cynical Cindy” is you projecting your own cynicism onto her. Sadly, you seem to be the only one unable to recognise that.

But Merry Christmas anyway! :)



On the contrary, I do not make promises and articulate high principles like transparency and accountability in government and then, cynically break said promises and go back on said principles.

You may have low aspirations of your leaders which tells a lot about who and what you are but there are those of us who still believe in some basic values and principles.

Cynical Cindy - you are welcome to her.

artemis
22-12-2020, 10:33 AM
....
Labour tried with KiwiBuild (and failed dismally) but it was never going to work as the target was just stupid (lack of tradies etc).

More the etc than the lack of tradies, in particular the targeted group of first home buyers don't want them despite financial incentives. As witness the hundreds of 'affordable' Kiwibuild homes unsold or under construction, plus those sold to or underwritten by the government. The Kiwibuild Unit had and has a lot of staff, some highly paid, plus big fees paid for legal advice and also a lot of input from real estate experts. Not so expert as it turned out.

Tradies are not the problem, developers were lining up and rubbing their hands with glee. Poor policy, poor planning and poor execution despite Kiwibuild being policy since 2012 - there is the problem.

dobby41
22-12-2020, 11:03 AM
Not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you saying public housing should not have market rent as a max rent for the home regardless of the household income?

When the accommodation supplement came in it applied to all rents and mortgage payments based on location and household circumstances. That is no longer the case since social housing moved to income related rents. What should it be?

Can you clarify?

Sure.
If you go back Housing Corp charged rent for State Houses based on a % of the family's income.
I don't think you could rent from a private provider and get the state to pay anything.
That changed - state houses were charged at 'market' rent and then people were given a subsidy (a 2 step transaction) in the form of the Accommodation Supplement. The Accommodation Supplement was then also available to use for private landlords - effectively state housing was subbed out.
The rental market started in earnest.
If the state had enough houses they could offer income related rents only - remove the subsidy paid to private landlords.

Joshuatree
22-12-2020, 11:19 AM
OK Balance .... the reality is that it is not Jacinda who is cynical .... it is you.

Definition of “cynical” below:

cynical



(sɪnɪkəl)
1. ADJECTIVEIf you describe (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/describe) someone as cynical, you mean they believe that people always (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/always) act selfishly.
...his cynical view of the world.
Synonyms: sceptical (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/sceptical), mocking (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/mocking), ironic (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ironic), sneering More Synonyms of cynical (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-thesaurus/cynical#cynical__1)

cynicallyADVERB [ADVERB with verb]As one former customer said cynically, 'He's probably pocketed the difference!'


2. ADJECTIVE [usually verb-link ADJECTIVE]If you are cynical about something, you do not believe that it can be successful (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/successful) or that the people involved are honest (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/honest).
It's hard not to be cynical about reform. [+ about] (https://grammar.collinsdictionary.com/grammar-pattern/adj-about-n_1)
It has also made me more cynical about relationships.
Synonyms: unbelieving (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/unbelieving), sceptical (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/sceptical), disillusioned (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/disillusioned), pessimistic (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/pessimistic) More Synonyms of cynical (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-thesaurus/cynical#cynical__1)



Take a good look at the points above. You have displayed every single one of them. Over and over and over again. Your constant reference to “cynical Cindy” is you projecting your own cynicism onto her. Sadly, you seem to be the only one unable to recognise that.

But Merry Christmas anyway! :)

IMO from observing the innumerable reactional and irrational pedantic posts,Unbalanced has a classic Classic case of Gynophobia(fear of women) mixed in with narcissim.Can never be wrong. Like OCD its a hard one to shift, hard to outwit oneself. But it is possible if one takes responsibility, is aware of their condition and truly want to grow and unfold into a balanced sentient human being with empathy for others.

artemis
22-12-2020, 11:55 AM
Sure.
If you go back Housing Corp charged rent for State Houses based on a % of the family's income.
I don't think you could rent from a private provider and get the state to pay anything.
That changed - state houses were charged at 'market' rent and then people were given a subsidy (a 2 step transaction) in the form of the Accommodation Supplement. The Accommodation Supplement was then also available to use for private landlords - effectively state housing was subbed out.
The rental market started in earnest.
If the state had enough houses they could offer income related rents only - remove the subsidy paid to private landlords.

But state housing rent is all income related.

artemis
22-12-2020, 11:59 AM
Take aim at opinions for sure but some recent posts look remarkably like personal attacks from posters with different opinions.

Bjauck
22-12-2020, 02:30 PM
But state housing rent is all income related. With income related rent and the accommodation supplement, together with untaxed leveraged long-term (5+ years) capital gains, the returns from investments in residential housing are effectively very well subsidised by taxpayers. And the current government is continuing that policy.

artemis
22-12-2020, 03:55 PM
With income related rent and the accommodation supplement, together with untaxed leveraged long-term (5+ years) capital gains, the returns from investments in residential housing are effectively very well subsidised by taxpayers. And the current government is continuing that policy.

Income related rent only applies to housing owned by the taxpayer or community housing providers. And most housing by a long way is owned by owner occupiers.

Personally I am not in favour of taxpayer housing subsidies but that ship has sailed now of course. The AS was originally introduced to solve an income problem, not a housing shortage. Since then the shortage has escalated due mainly to various government policies, and that has led to price and rent rises. And a shortage along with increased costs and compliance allows a lot more scope for landlords to minimise risk.

While more and more state housing seems to be a preferred option these days, that is a huge burden on the taxpayer and still leaves the impact on neighbours of last resort housing.

westerly
22-12-2020, 06:30 PM
More the etc than the lack of tradies, in particular the targeted group of first home buyers don't want them despite financial incentives. As witness the hundreds of 'affordable' Kiwibuild homes unsold or under construction, plus those sold to or underwritten by the government. The Kiwibuild Unit had and has a lot of staff, some highly paid, plus big fees paid for legal advice and also a lot of input from real estate experts. Not so expert as it turned out.

Tradies are not the problem, developers were lining up and rubbing their hands with glee. Poor policy, poor planning and poor execution despite Kiwibuild being policy since 2012 - there is the problem.

The problem is debt. Housing has become so heavily mortgaged along with personal debt, the results of not supporting the indebted would be catastrophic. The economy should have been left to crash, the efforts to support with low interest rates etc have resulted in more and more debt further compounding the problem. Both parties are equally to blame.

westerly

Baa_Baa
22-12-2020, 07:32 PM
The problem is debt. Housing has become so heavily mortgaged along with personal debt, the results of not supporting the indebted would be catastrophic. The economy should have been left to crash, the efforts to support with low interest rates etc have resulted in more and more debt further compounding the problem. Both parties are equally to blame.

westerly

The government doesn’t set interest rates, can’t blame any government for monetary policy settings

macduffy
23-12-2020, 11:16 AM
The government doesn’t set interest rates, can’t blame any government for monetary policy settings

And not entirely the RBNZ's fault either. Low interest rates are a world-wide phenomenon. Any attempt to resist the trend would see NZ's economy devastated. Can you see the govt and/or population allowing the RBNZ to do that? I think not!

dobby41
23-12-2020, 11:25 AM
And not entirely the RBNZ's fault either. Low interest rates are a world-wide phenomenon. Any attempt to resist the trend would see NZ's economy devastated. Can you see the govt and/or population allowing the RBNZ to do that? I think not!

I agree.
It is interesting to see how some people treat these knobs as unrelated to one another.
To keep interest rates high the RBNZ would need to push up the OCR so our exchange rate would go sky high and exporters would be screwed.
All the knobs require a finesse in operation.

westerly
23-12-2020, 11:27 AM
And not entirely the RBNZ's fault either. Low interest rates are a world-wide phenomenon. Any attempt to resist the trend would see NZ's economy devastated. Can you see the govt and/or population allowing the RBNZ to do that? I think not!

Low interest rates are the result of Govts. pumping money into the economies, The next big crash is going to happen. When ? Who knows but it will happen.

westerly

jonu
23-12-2020, 11:37 AM
Here is an interesting article about where the government is steering water infrastructure.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/govt-agencies-to-take-control-of-water

I first heard of "3 Waters" about 9 months ago. It is a term already in use in the US and possibly elsewhere. It strikes me as the latest "flavour of the decade" dreamt up somewhere that rightly or wrongly gets adopted in massive scale.

Nowhere have I seen the clear policy outline for adopting this mantra, but governments appear hellbent on forcing it on their populations.

Prior to the Local Government reforms circa 1990 we had Catchment Boards that were locally elected and dealt with very local issues to do with rivers and water catchment. They got subsumed into Regional Councils and from what I can tell it has largely been a ballsup since. Now under "3 Waters", they want to further centralise control. Worked well for Watercare didn't it?

Perhaps this issue warrants its own thread.

jonu
23-12-2020, 05:29 PM
Clearly not enough of a vote winner for our Cindy.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/ctv-families-profoundly-disappointed-at-lack-of-response-from-prime-minister/VROWBG7Y25U5HBIB4FM323Z33Q/

Frankly the political arm should stay at arm's length. That's all she needed to respond.

Pike River on the other hand has had political interference all over it. Andrew Little spun the recovery into an evidence collecting exercise, with around $50 million dollars, purely for political purposes, while at the same time giving the families false hope. Don't ya just luv 'em. all touchy feely when there is a vote to be garnered. Cold as stone when not.

dobby41
24-12-2020, 09:45 AM
Clearly not enough of a vote winner for our Cindy.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/ctv-families-profoundly-disappointed-at-lack-of-response-from-prime-minister/VROWBG7Y25U5HBIB4FM323Z33Q/

Frankly the political arm should stay at arm's length. That's all she needed to respond.

Pike River on the other hand has had political interference all over it. Andrew Little spun the recovery into an evidence collecting exercise, with around $50 million dollars, purely for political purposes, while at the same time giving the families false hope. Don't ya just luv 'em. all touchy feely when there is a vote to be garnered. Cold as stone when not.

People have their views and the CTV person has voices theirs.
If the PM responded to every person on every issue THEY think is important then nothing would get done.
Those good at dog whistle politics would respond - expect something from National and especially Seymour.

jonu
24-12-2020, 10:00 AM
People have their views and the CTV person has voices theirs.
If the PM responded to every person on every issue THEY think is important then nothing would get done.
Those good at dog whistle politics would respond - expect something from National and especially Seymour.

My point is that she will respond very quickly....and with millions of dollars if she sniffs a vote in it. Nothing to do with ethics.

macduffy
24-12-2020, 10:00 AM
I struggle to see why one tragedy should merit the millions spent on it while another, bigger in terms of the human toll, is ignored.

Balance
24-12-2020, 10:13 AM
My point is that she will respond very quickly....and with millions of dollars if she sniffs a vote in it. Nothing to do with ethics.

Ihumatao.

Trevor Mallard.

Cynical Cindy shows her true hypocritical and manipulative nature more and more often - lapped up by her lapdog supporters as her being pragmatic.

dobby41
24-12-2020, 10:27 AM
My point is that she will respond very quickly....and with millions of dollars if she sniffs a vote in it. Nothing to do with ethics.

I know that is your opinion!
There are other views but you wouldn't listen (or listen but not hear).

dobby41
24-12-2020, 10:29 AM
Cynical Cindy shows her true hypocritical and manipulative nature more and more often - lapped up by her lapdog supporters as her being pragmatic.

How is she cynical? You didn't learn from the definition given.
You are the cynical one.

Balance
24-12-2020, 11:09 AM
How is she cynical? You didn't learn from the definition given.
You are the cynical one.

From Oxford languages :

Cynical : concerned only with one's own interests and typically disregarding accepted standards in order to achieve them.
"a cynical manipulation of public opinion"

Just don't ask Cynical Cindy about kindness to the person whose life is destroyed by her hand-picked defender, Trevor Mallard with the $330k (+ more to come) price tag.

How cynical can any 'leader' get?

Oh, don't forget the hijab - wearing it still after it was pointed out that women in Iran are being persecuted, jailed and beaten up for not wearing the hijab.

iceman
24-12-2020, 11:12 AM
How is she cynical? You didn't learn from the definition given.
You are the cynical one.

She is cynical for example because the Pike River fiasco unfolding now is a result of what you call "dog whistle politics" while Labour and in particular Andrew Little and Winston Peters (the one of "I will be the first one in" fame) were barking loud and making promises down the WC to get votes there before the 2017 election.

Or like macduffy says, why one (Pike) and not the other where more lives where lost ?

jonu
24-12-2020, 12:41 PM
I know that is your opinion!
There are other views but you wouldn't listen (or listen but not hear).

I'm happy to listen to views that reflect the reality of what is unfolding, or what is likely to unfold based on reasoned logic. There is plenty of evidence that Ardern will spend up large with our money when she sniffs a vote to be had. If nothing in it for her....cold as stone. That's our Cindy's true colours.

dobby41
24-12-2020, 12:51 PM
I'm happy to listen to views that reflect the reality of what is unfolding, or what is likely to unfold based on reasoned logic. There is plenty of evidence that Ardern will spend up large with our money when she sniffs a vote to be had. If nothing in it for her....cold as stone. That's our Cindy's true colours.

No reasoned logic there.

Balance
24-12-2020, 12:52 PM
I'm happy to listen to views that reflect the reality of what is unfolding, or what is likely to unfold based on reasoned logic. There is plenty of evidence that Ardern will spend up large with our money when she sniffs a vote to be had. If nothing in it for her....cold as stone. That's our Cindy's true colours.

Yup - just like she will make an appearance for anything remotely positive for her image but hide like a midnight intruder when there is anything remotely negative. Ihumatao is the outstanding example - nowhere to be seen.

BTW, I heard from a property developer that FBU has been given a ‘sweetener’ to give the impression of selling the land to taxpayers for well below market value.

Balance
24-12-2020, 12:54 PM
No reasoned logic there.

Give us your logic why Miss Kindness & Transparency is silent on Trevor’s dastardly deed of knifing a man’s career and future?

Bjauck
24-12-2020, 01:05 PM
How is she cynical? You didn't learn from the definition given.
You are the cynical one.
I think many politicians are cynical. With Ardern I think she has cynically jettisoned her belief in a CGT in order to widen her electoral appeal. Why has she not withdrawn her support from Mallard? He has behaved horrendously by prejudging and unjustifiably besmirching. They are certainly not qualities befitting a Speaker of The House.

Balance
24-12-2020, 01:12 PM
I think many politicians are cynical. With Ardern I think she has cynically jettisoned her belief in a CGT in order to widen her electoral appeal. Why has she not withdrawn her support from Mallard? He has behaved horrendously by prejudging and unjustifiably besmirching. They are certainly not qualities befitting a Speaker of The House.

We know politicians are generally cynical.

Difference with Cindy is that she professes to hold herself to a higher standard but has showed herself to be the grubbiest leader NZ has had yet.

CGT definitely but think also of David Clark, Lees Galloway, Ihumatao, $100m for maraes pre-election bribe, Pike River, housing crisis, child poverty, Trevor Mallard and above all, timing her wedding for maximum electoral benefit.

jonu
24-12-2020, 01:13 PM
No reasoned logic there.

It's been spelt out in previous posts by myself and others. It would appear it is you who is happy to ignore the uncomfortable truth about Ardern.

Just to refresh your memory.

Ihumatao

Pike River

CTV Building

Trevor Mallard

Wage subsidy debacle....setting an expectation of businesses who followed the rules Cindy and her inept crew set, to pay it back. How about being competent in the first place?

Throwing Dr Bloomfield under the bus.

Getting to be quite a list aint it? I'm sure there's more that could be added.

Balance
29-12-2020, 06:27 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/richard-prebble-what-the-government-did-not-want-you-to-know-about-its-covid-response/HALPX7VGMNR457JA3GHDX5CDZQ/

Paywalled

Excerpt : "Jacinda Ardern promised her government's "first priority" is "transparency". Never have we received better PR and less transparency."

Yup - BS, star-dust & cynical manipulation by Cindy & her team of incompetents. And a nation consisting principally of sheep responded as sheep do.

Excerpts :

"What did the Government not want us to know? Despite receiving a report on September 28, Chris Hipkins released it the Friday before Christmas. I googled the report and found out why. It is called the "Report of the Advisory Committee to oversee the implementation of the New Zealand Covid-19 Surveillance Plan and Testing Strategy". The report reveals our Covid testing plan was written by a veterinary epidemiologist. The plan was flawed. For eight months our borders were wide open."

"The report found that the Government did not have testing that was "fit for purpose" and the country needs a "more effective, coordinated and aligned approach" to "safeguarding our borders".

There is "poor communications both between and within, the Ministry of Health…a lack of appreciation of operational implications of directives; and poorly designed risk targeting of testing regimes, particularly at the border".

"It is clear to the Committee that reports of progress on issues did not always reflect concrete action on the ground." (We were lied to)."

dobby41
31-12-2020, 11:07 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/matthew-hooton-time-to-settle-the-covid-account-in-2021/TB23Q4ZMVARDN2QAJLJ4HM5N4E/
Paywalled.
It is interesting that Prebble (an ex Labourite) is quite negative whereas Hooton (a National man through and through) is quite positive (or at least realistic).
Excerpt:
"Still, to borrow from Napoleon, better we have a lucky Prime Minister than an unlucky one. And I can't get as worked up as Prebble about the three-month delay in the report's release. After 20 years of the old norms being eroded by Helen Clark, John Key and their protégées, a mere three-month cover-up of a report critical of a government's performance on its main re-election pitch is unsurprising."

Personally, I think the report writers have done a very good job and got to the crux of the issues. I can't help think of the TV series 'Yes Minister' when they talk of the issues getting the Health Ministry to do things.
Now to make change! Won't be quick or pretty bring Health (Ministry to DHBs to PHPs) up to the 21st century and fit for purpose.

Balance
31-12-2020, 11:45 AM
We were simply lucky - no thanks to the team of incompetents. Remember David Clark breaking the lockdown rules?

From the same article :

Luck played its part. Having not travelled overseas this year, we forget our 1000-mile moat is the biggest protecting any significant population in the world. We're nearly twice as far from Australia as Iceland from Scotland, and nearly 10 times as far as Taiwan from mainland China. In practice, our Covid border consists of only Auckland International Airport, the odd flight into Christchurch, and the container ports. If any country might achieve the idyllic scenario, you'd bet on us.

It turns out that Ardern swimming gracefully upon the swamp disguised a complete shambles underneath. If the Prime Minister herself did not lie to us, then those who she relied on may have misrepresented information to her, with "reports of progress … not always reflect[ing] concrete action on the ground", Simpson and Roche assert.

dobby41
31-12-2020, 11:56 AM
It turns out that Ardern swimming gracefully upon the swamp disguised a complete shambles underneath. If the Prime Minister herself did not lie to us, then those who she relied on may have misrepresented information to her, with "reports of progress … not always reflect[ing] concrete action on the ground", Simpson and Roche assert.

I did like that bit - Hooton does write well.

Balance
31-12-2020, 12:00 PM
I did like that bit - Hooton does write well.

NZ got lucky - no thanks to Cynical Cindy & her team of incompetents, and now we realise her team too of cover up artists.

dobby41
31-12-2020, 12:23 PM
NZ got lucky - no thanks to Cynical Cindy & her team of incompetents, and now we realise her team too of cover up artists.

You keep saying that - back into your cracked record routine.
Luck did have a bit to do with it but it isn't the whole story - but I don't expect you to see it.
Lucky we weren't being run by Simon and his mob!
Have a Happy New Year - if that is possible for you.

iceman
01-01-2021, 09:11 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/matthew-hooton-time-to-settle-the-covid-account-in-2021/TB23Q4ZMVARDN2QAJLJ4HM5N4E/
Paywalled.
It is interesting that Prebble (an ex Labourite) is quite negative whereas Hooton (a National man through and through) is quite positive (or at least realistic).
Excerpt:
"Still, to borrow from Napoleon, better we have a lucky Prime Minister than an unlucky one. And I can't get as worked up as Prebble about the three-month delay in the report's release. After 20 years of the old norms being eroded by Helen Clark, John Key and their protégées, a mere three-month cover-up of a report critical of a government's performance on its main re-election pitch is unsurprising."

Personally, I think the report writers have done a very good job and got to the crux of the issues. I can't help think of the TV series 'Yes Minister' when they talk of the issues getting the Health Ministry to do things.
Now to make change! Won't be quick or pretty bring Health (Ministry to DHBs to PHPs) up to the 21st century and fit for purpose.

Now we know what Prebble and Hooton think. Do you think it was an open and honest Government that sat on this report on the most important issue facing NZ this year and which has resulted in extraordinary measures by the Government ? Did the PM not say this was a "COVID election" but decided not to give us this very valuable information !!

Or have you just accepted that the PM and her Ministers just blatantly lie to us about absolutely everything ?

artemis
01-01-2021, 10:49 AM
To be fair, iceman, the Prime Minister hasn't mentioned 'most open and transparent' for a few years now.

Balance
05-01-2021, 06:33 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/real-estate/123874073/action-needed-to-halt-skyrocketing-house-prices-corelogic

Cindy said she would fix the housing crisis - by turning the crisis into a disaster.

Enjoy the carnage, the woke voters who thought Cindy has a clue about fixing problems.

Rest of us will sit back and enjoy our property gains.

dobby41
06-01-2021, 10:19 AM
Now we know what Prebble and Hooton think. Do you think it was an open and honest Government that sat on this report on the most important issue facing NZ this year and which has resulted in extraordinary measures by the Government ? Did the PM not say this was a "COVID election" but decided not to give us this very valuable information !!

Or have you just accepted that the PM and her Ministers just blatantly lie to us about absolutely everything ?

It doesn't matter what I think as I was only trying to show there are other thoughts from commentators to provide some balance to Balance's post.

artemis
06-01-2021, 01:15 PM
.....Cindy said she would fix the housing crisis - by turning the crisis into a disaster.

Enjoy the carnage, the woke voters who thought Cindy has a clue about fixing problems.

Rest of us will sit back and enjoy our property gains.

The current government is a very good friend to asset owners. Most of us are doing unbelievably well. Renters and those with negative financial positions not so much. The latter will be happy with low interest rates of course, unless the debt is on the plastic, so there is a silver lining.

Balance
15-01-2021, 08:03 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/434380/urgent-government-intervention-needed-to-address-housing-supply-shortage-economists

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/434554/escalating-rent-prices-forcing-families-into-emergency-housing

Having turned the housing crisis into a housing disaster, what is Cynical Cindy doing?

Turning her back on the disaster and busy taking selfie’s with her fan base on holiday.

Great example of caring, kind and accountable - NOT!

stoploss
15-01-2021, 08:19 AM
Disappointing they propose bringing int’l students back from April . This will be in front of a lot of Kiwis still trying to get home.Plus added risks at the border with the new Covid strains ....

artemis
15-01-2021, 08:27 AM
Having turned the housing crisis into a housing disaster, what is Cynical Cindy doing?

Turning her back on the disaster and busy taking selfie’s with her fan base on holiday.

Great example of caring, kind and accountable - NOT!

20,000 for sale on Trademe and 10,000 for rent. Plus thousands of flatmates wanted. More on other sites. So there are places available, maybe not for all but for many based on the numbers. If rent amount is an issue then the government can temporarily increase TAS and the Accommodation Supplement (this originally designed as an income issue not a housing shortage issue). Much cheaper than building more state houses and subsidising rents for life.

Much more likely is that many of those in emergency accommodation are too risky for private landlords, especially with more restrictive rules on termination coming next month. Who caused that problem? Answer - the government and households themselves.

iceman
15-01-2021, 09:27 AM
Disappointing they propose bringing int’l students back from April . This will be in front of a lot of Kiwis still trying to get home.Plus added risks at the border with the new Covid strains ....

Why do international tourists bring more COVID risks than returning Kiwis from around the World ? I do not follow your logic. Many of the students are already part way through their studies in NZ, they pay for their own quarantine and bring much needed money to the education institutions. All after thorough and multiple COVID testing as well as the 14 days quarantine !
I think it is a good decision.

stoploss
15-01-2021, 09:32 AM
Why do international tourists bring more COVID risks than returning Kiwis from around the World ? I do not follow your logic. Many of the students are already part way through their studies in NZ, they pay for their own quarantine and bring much needed money to the education institutions. All after thorough and multiple COVID testing as well as the 14 days quarantine !
I think it is a good decision.
The logic is we are obliged to let our own citizens return . We are under no obligation at this time to open the border to anyone else . With the mutant strains of the virus emerging why take the risk ?
the 49 mio benefit to the economy will be wiped by lunchtime if we have another lockdown ...

macduffy
15-01-2021, 10:17 AM
The logic is we are obliged to let our own citizens return . We are under no obligation at this time to open the border to anyone else . With the mutant strains of the virus emerging why take the risk ?
the 49 mio benefit to the economy will be wiped by lunchtime if we have another lockdown ...

Yes, it's an experiment. If it works there'll be plenty more and a few $b for the economy. If it fails.......

iceman
15-01-2021, 10:24 AM
Yes, it's an experiment. If it works there'll be plenty more and a few $b for the economy. If it fails.......

Same as everyone coming in. Doesn't matter for COVID risk whether they are foreign students or returning Kiwis, many of which are returning from so called high risk countries.
Stoploss I realise we have an obligation to let Kiwis in which is different to foreign students being higher risk of bringing in COVID. But it doesn't have to be just one or the other !

I've had a personal experience with the rules of returning as have many of my colleagues. People are mistaken if they think the rules and processes are perfect, far from it.

Balance
17-01-2021, 10:08 AM
For the record, Cynical Cindy has now reneged on all her promises (and previous damning comments about housing crisis etc) to make housing affordable for NZers.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/300205858/the-brutal-catch22-politics-of-trying-to-move-to-affordable-housing

"She essentially said her Government could never really improve housing affordability by forcing or allowing house price falls because voters expected unending inflation in the value of their most important asset and it was her job to guarantee that."

iceman
17-01-2021, 10:26 AM
For the record, Cynical Cindy has now reneged on all her promises (and previous damning comments about housing crisis etc) to make housing affordable for NZers.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/300205858/the-brutal-catch22-politics-of-trying-to-move-to-affordable-housing

"She essentially said her Government could never really improve housing affordability by forcing or allowing house price falls because voters expected unending inflation in the value of their most important asset and it was her job to guarantee that."

No surprise there really Balance, just like she has reneged on just about everything else she promised, including even her climate goals, the "nuclear" issue of her generation !

Balance
17-01-2021, 10:35 AM
No surprise there really Balance, just like she has reneged on just about everything else she promised, including even her climate goals, the "nuclear" issue of her generation !

Yup - Tiwai Pt was going to be history when she needed the Greens to get and stay in power.

Now, she is happy to keep polluting NZ's atmosphere with the renewed contract with Rio.

Balance
19-01-2021, 07:32 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/just-what-the-doctor-ordered-clarke-gayfords-sweet-photo-of-holiday-with-jacinda-ardern-and-neve/5WE25LNFHXQI65NWL23QV6CMCE/

The housing & homelessness disaster rages on out there and the cynical one has been on holiday, sharing photos ... oops, sharing the ‘pain’ of those trying to cope with the disaster which has exploded under her watch.

And there will be no relief when she goes back to work - because she and her team of incompetents do not have a clue as to what to do.

Except throw more money and fuel into the fire.

artemis
19-01-2021, 07:54 AM
......
The housing & homelessness disaster rages on out there and the cynical one has been on holiday, sharing photos ... oops, sharing the ‘pain’ of those trying to cope with the disaster which has exploded under her watch.

And there will be no relief when she goes back to work - because she and her team of incompetents do not have a clue as to what to do. Except throw more money and fuel into the fire.

To be fair, though, this government is setting many new records in the housing sector.

Logen Ninefingers
19-01-2021, 09:07 AM
Central Banks caused the 'housing disaster' through their desire to stoke a 'wealth effect' via artificially inflating asset prices.
They do this by suppressing interest rates and printing money. Started in the US, and the disease has spread around the Western world.
Forget about sovereignty, we follow the lead of the US Federal Reserve, without question.
Interest rates have been at absurdly low levels for about 12 years now, and this is totally due to Central Bank actions. Markets do not fuction: they are distorted by Central Bank bond buying, Central Bank Interest rate suppression, Central Bank money printing.
We don't have capitalism any more, not when savers are smashed and housing borrowers and zombie corporations have joined the 'too big to fail club'. This is an age of bail-outs for all....all with money and assets that is....and devil take you if you don't have either.
The biggest contribution Western governments have made to the housing madness is via mass immigration - a lazy way of increasing GDP growth.
Eventually we will have increasing unrest and even more socialism...renters cannot cope with the constant increases as it is & future generations are of course not part of the looting of the financial system that is going on at the moment - they will be stuck with the bill while locked out of securing assets. Only a rich Mummy and Daddy can bridge the gap. Say goodbye to any notion of egalitarianism.

So cheer on your rising house price, and put your head in the sand and say it's due to "lack of supply" while interest rates are at the lowest levels in history. Meanwhile capitalism dies & socialists / communists will point to the system (a system actually now hijacked by Central Banks) and say "it doesn't work", and huge numbers of people will start agreeing with them. Social unrest will be the driver for change. Do we want to see private property ownership disappear due to the greed of a couple of generations of people who didn't challenge Central Bank actions because they thought "we are getting rich!".....

Balance
19-01-2021, 09:16 AM
Central Banks caused the 'housing disaster' through their desire to stoke a 'wealth effect' via artificially inflating asset prices.
They do this by suppressing interest rates and printing money. Started in the US, and the disease has spread around the Western world.
Forget about sovereignty, we follow the lead of the US Federal Reserve, without question.
Interest rates have been at absurdly low levels for about 12 years now, and this is totally due to Central Bank actions. Markets do not fuction: they are distorted by Central Bank bond buying, Central Bank Interest rate suppression, Central Bank money printing.
We don't have capitalism any more, not when savers are smashed and housing borrowers and zombie corporations have joined the 'too big to fail club'. This is an age of bail-outs for all....all with money and assets that is....and devil take you if you don't have either.
The biggest contribution Western governments have made to the housing madness is via mass immigration - a lazy way of increasing GDP growth.
Eventually we will have increasing unrest and even more socialism...renters cannot cope with the constant increases as it is & future generations are of course not part of the looting of the financial system that is going on at the moment - they will be stuck with the bill while locked out of securing assets. Only a rich Mummy and Daddy can bridge the gap. Say goodbye to any notion of egalitarianism.

So cheer on your rising house price, and put your head in the sand and say it's due to "lack of supply" while interest rates are at the lowest levels in history. Meanwhile capitalism dies & socialists / communists will point to the system (a system actually now hijacked by Central Banks) and say "it doesn't work", and huge numbers of people will start agreeing with them. Social unrest will be the driver for change. Do we want to see private property ownership disappear due to the greed of a couple of generations of people who didn't challenge Central Bank actions because they thought "we are getting rich!".....

Straight out of the Cynical Cindy's song book - everybody's fault but the government?

I suggest you go to Singapore (limited land and just about everything including labour has to be imported) and see how they take care of housing for their citizens.

Then, come back to NZ and tell us why the NZ government cannot do affordable housing.

Logen Ninefingers
19-01-2021, 02:08 PM
Straight out of the Cynical Cindy's song book - everybody's fault but the government?

I suggest you go to Singapore (limited land and just about everything including labour has to be imported) and see how they take care of housing for their citizens.

Then, come back to NZ and tell us why the NZ government cannot do affordable housing.

Did I say *everyone* was at fault but the government?

I'm laying the blame clearly at the feet of unelected Central Bankers.

You are probably up to your eyeballs in debt and at the same time 'absolutely loving' your paper house price gains. So savers can go and get stuffed....let the good times roll!

Unfortunately someone is paying for this madness: ratepayers, taxpayers, future generations. All on the hook for the crazy out-of-control spend-up that is happening now.

And what is the eventual outcome?

"Every credit fuelled boom is followed by a bust".

That's right. Nothing good.

Logen Ninefingers
19-01-2021, 02:18 PM
Straight out of the Cynical Cindy's song book - everybody's fault but the government?

I suggest you go to Singapore (limited land and just about everything including labour has to be imported) and see how they take care of housing for their citizens.

Then, come back to NZ and tell us why the NZ government cannot do affordable housing.

'Heavily subsidised' Singaporean housing: That's the answer according to Balance. Another 'solution' where the taxpayer is on the hook is not a solution at all. Just raise interest rates ffs!! Stop with the passive bail-outs of people who are living the life of Riley but not wanting to pay for it. Housing should not be a get-rich-quick scheme and an ATM, which is how they are being used in NZ.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/economics/article/3117954/sky-high-prices-million-dollar-question-facing-singapores

Sky-high prices: the million-dollar question facing Singapore’s public housing

Despite the coronavirus and a bumper recession, a record number of public housing flats were resold by their owners for more than S$1 million in 2020
That’s great for those who buy heavily subsidised public units then sell for a personal profit, but bodes ill for a system aspiring to affordable housing for all

Derek Wong

Published: 8:00am, 18 Jan, 2021



[/I]

JBmurc
19-01-2021, 02:54 PM
Did I say *everyone* was at fault but the government?

I'm laying the blame clearly at the feet of unelected Central Bankers.

You are probably up to your eyeballs in debt and at the same time 'absolutely loving' your paper house price gains. So savers can go and get stuffed....let the good times roll!

Unfortunately someone is paying for this madness: ratepayers, taxpayers, future generations. All on the hook for the crazy out-of-control spend-up that is happening now.

And what is the eventual outcome?

"Every credit fuelled boom is followed by a bust".

That's right. Nothing good.

Private debt is going to be the biggest issue going forward Kiwis already had one of the highest Household debts to incomes in the world ... Inflation from forward Govt massive stimulus plans is going to make one hell of a problem as many Kiwi families doing it tough to have food and shelter ... which of course will be fixed just the same as it has always been in modern times ... even lower rates to Negative rates higher payouts to poor .(.. 2030= Cashless western society IMHO ...)

stoploss
19-01-2021, 03:00 PM
'Heavily subsidised' Singaporean housing: That's the answer according to Balance. Another 'solution' where the taxpayer is on the hook is not a solution at all. Just raise interest rates ffs!! Stop with the passive bail-outs of people who are living the life of Riley but not wanting to pay for it. Housing should not be a get-rich-quick scheme and an ATM, which is how they are being used in NZ.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/economics/article/3117954/sky-high-prices-million-dollar-question-facing-singapores

Sky-high prices: the million-dollar question facing Singapore’s public housing

Despite the coronavirus and a bumper recession, a record number of public housing flats were resold by their owners for more than S$1 million in 2020
That’s great for those who buy heavily subsidised public units then sell for a personal profit, but bodes ill for a system aspiring to affordable housing for all

Derek Wong

Published: 8:00am, 18 Jan, 2021



[/I]
Logen if mortgage rates went to 7.5 % overnight , hows that going to solve the problem the 21,000 that are on the emergency housing waitlist face ?
Supply is the issue.

Logen Ninefingers
19-01-2021, 03:20 PM
Logen if mortgage rates went to 7.5 % overnight , hows that going to solve the problem the 21,000 that are on the emergency housing waitlist face ?
Supply is the issue.

Are you a capitalist? Because in capitalism, investor / depositor funds provide the capital for investment....not the magic money tree at the central bank!!

It is my right to earn a fair return on deposited funds....but an unelected central banker has decided that over-leveraged borrowers and zombie businesses need to be subsidised and bailed-out.

Interest rates should never have been kept pinned to the canvas all through the years of the 'rock star economy' and onwards right up to COVID. Going into the pandemic, the OCR was at a pathetic 1% and our celebrity economists were screaming for government stimulus. Again, this was before the pandemic.

Fair enough earning some capital gain on your house. But this is the biggest rort in history.

If house prices - and rents - keep going up, that emergency wait list will get worse. No-one can afford this fiasco. Not long-term. Not the social consequences. Not the impact it is having on our debt levels and monetary system.

If you don't think supply is adequate, why are we importing tens of thousands of people into the country every year no matter who the government is? Our infrastructure cannot cope. It is all done to keep this ponzi housing market up. Anything they do to 'stabilize' it, fuels it.

Let's start putting interest rates up gradually, and remove deposit grants paid by the taxpayer. Something must be done to dampen the frenzy.

Logen Ninefingers
19-01-2021, 03:24 PM
Private debt is going to be the biggest issue going forward Kiwis already had one of the highest Household debts to incomes in the world ... Inflation from forward Govt massive stimulus plans is going to make one hell of a problem as many Kiwi families doing it tough to have food and shelter ... which of course will be fixed just the same as it has always been in modern times ... even lower rates to Negative rates higher payouts to poor .(.. 2030= Cashless western society IMHO ...)

What they are going to do is print more money and push interest rates into negative territory. It is the biggest on-going bail-out in history. The populace don't see it as an on-going bail-out, they only see housing as the be all and end all; do something to 'stabilize' the property market, and it goes beserk as a consequence.

JBmurc
19-01-2021, 03:52 PM
What they are going to do is print more money and push interest rates into negative territory. It is the biggest on-going bail-out in history. The populace don't see it as an on-going bail-out, they only see housing as the be all and end all; do something to 'stabilize' the property market, and it goes beserk as a consequence.

Yes and widens the gap between the Rich and the poor faster than ever.. really hurts new younger Gens without much Capital base ... 20yrs ago I started with $40k in savings ... invested $7k year later that turned into 180k cap profit just buying a not titled section in Queenstown .... fast forward to present days !! no view crap car park size sections asking $400k+ pre-title 10% ... $40k .... outlook no way that section value will increase much ..as nothing great about it..1 bed 30sqm apartments ... banks don't want to lend on the entry level property 700k+


.... if it wasn't for ultra low rates the housing market would stall .. Govt + RBNZ know this and with Kiwis+Banks having so much capital tied up ... free markets are gone its all about keeping it afloat as all costs

Balance
20-01-2021, 07:11 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300209428/public-housing-waitlist-grows-by-1000-in-two-months-to-new-record-high-as-high-rents-hit-the-poor

And the queue for public housing, emergency housing and rental supplements (subsidies, handouts and welfare) grows and grows - to record levels.

Excerpt :

"The waitlist for public housing has continued its steady march upwards, with 22,409 eligible households waiting for a state or social home at the end of November.

That is a jump of about 1000 since the end of September and is a record high.

It comes as both rents and house prices are surging in a red-hot property market.

The waitlist has exploded in recent years, growing by about 8000 in the last year and more than quadrupling since the Labour-led Government was elected in 2017."

But Cynical Cindy can fix it all - with kindness and her unique brand of Bull Dust about 2021 being ng the year of finally delivering.

Just don't hold your breath - she is busy taking selfies with her fans at the beach and scare-mongering the covid 19 pandemic. Got to keep the sheep (gullible NZers) in the pen.

Balance
20-01-2021, 07:40 AM
'Heavily subsidised' Singaporean housing: That's the answer according to Balance. Another 'solution' where the taxpayer is on the hook is not a solution at all. Just raise interest rates ffs!! Stop with the passive bail-outs of people who are living the life of Riley but not wanting to pay for it. Housing should not be a get-rich-quick scheme and an ATM, which is how they are being used in NZ.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/economics/article/3117954/sky-high-prices-million-dollar-question-facing-singapores

Sky-high prices: the million-dollar question facing Singapore’s public housing

Despite the coronavirus and a bumper recession, a record number of public housing flats were resold by their owners for more than S$1 million in 2020
That’s great for those who buy heavily subsidised public units then sell for a personal profit, but bodes ill for a system aspiring to affordable housing for all

Derek Wong

Published: 8:00am, 18 Jan, 2021



[/I]

What a load of garbage!

The writer was commenting on resales - ie. secondary market government built units.

Every eligible Singaporean is guaranteed a new flat built by the government there - based upon their income.

https://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/residential/buying-a-flat/new/eligibility/hdb-flat

None of the wasted billions of dollars like in NZ spent on subsidized state housing, rental accommodation supplements & subsidies & emergency housing & rentals.

Logen Ninefingers
20-01-2021, 01:28 PM
What a load of garbage!

The writer was commenting on resales - ie. secondary market government built units.

Every eligible Singaporean is guaranteed a new flat built by the government there - based upon their income.

https://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/residential/buying-a-flat/new/eligibility/hdb-flat

None of the wasted billions of dollars like in NZ spent on subsidized state housing, rental accommodation supplements & subsidies & emergency housing & rentals.

Every eligible Singaporean is guaranteed a new flat built by the government there - based upon their income.

Sounds like socialism mate. The government builds all these boxy flats here in NZ while Balance enjoys dirt-cheap money at someone else's expense, sipping champagne in his mansion.

That's the fate of NZ's next generation: "Let them eat cake! Let them live in a box in a tower block!"

Let's end the farce of favouring borrowers and speculators over savers, and start gradually pushing up interest rates. Let's turn of the tap of virtually free money that is powering the housing market. Let it stand or fall on it's on feet!!

stoploss
20-01-2021, 01:51 PM
Every eligible Singaporean is guaranteed a new flat built by the government there - based upon their income.

Sounds like socialism mate. The government builds all these boxy flats here in NZ while Balance enjoys dirt-cheap money at someone else's expense, sipping champagne in his mansion.

That's the fate of NZ's next generation: "Let them eat cake! Let them live in a box in a tower block!"

Let's end the farce of favouring borrowers and speculators over savers, and start gradually pushing up interest rates. Let's turn of the tap of virtually free money that is powering the housing market. Let it stand or fall on it's on feet!!
As I have pointed out to you and you failed to answer , pushing up interest rates isn't going to house the now 22,000 on the social housing waitlist.
Supply is the issue . It was a big issue when National had people in cars and the waitlist was 8000..... It's a lot bigger now and we are not getting a lot of answers from the same people who derided the National Govt.

jonu
20-01-2021, 01:54 PM
As I have pointed out to you and you failed to answer , pushing up interest rates isn't going to house the now 22,000 on the social housing waitlist.
Supply is the issue . It was a big issue when National had people in cars and the waitlist was 8000..... It's a lot bigger now and we are not getting a lot of answers from the same people who derided the National Govt.

How many housing speculators are sitting on empty houses? It was estimated as high as 30,000 in Auckland alone, a few years ago.

dobby41
20-01-2021, 02:59 PM
How many housing speculators are sitting on empty houses? It was estimated as high as 30,000 in Auckland alone, a few years ago.

That was a fraught number from the census wasn't it?
Included houses under renovation, sold but not moved into yet, holiday rentals + real ghost houses.

Logen Ninefingers
20-01-2021, 03:30 PM
As I have pointed out to you and you failed to answer , pushing up interest rates isn't going to house the now 22,000 on the social housing waitlist.
Supply is the issue . It was a big issue when National had people in cars and the waitlist was 8000..... It's a lot bigger now and we are not getting a lot of answers from the same people who derided the National Govt.

Supply is the issue? If we build more houses they get snapped up by immigrants, plus property speculators gorging on virtually free money.....and still more people will keep coming.
If you admit that places like Papamoa, Pokeno, and East Auckland are growing like Topsy then you would be saying that the current plan to cover ever square inch of NZ land in housing is simply unsustainable. Already some of our best horticultural land at Pukekohe is being covered in the growing army of houses....it never stops!!

I don't know whether you are a real estate agent, or someone who is enjoying the vurtually free money coming your way - but there is no shame in admitting that virtually free money being shovelled out by The Reserve Bank and it's vassal retail banks is what is providing the fuel for this fire.
But you won't, because it doesn't suit your agenda. The last thing you want is for interest rates to go up because then you would be paying a fair rate on borrowed money, and savers could earn a fair return.

More people will be joining the 22,000 on the waiting list - mark my words. They will be doing it because they cannot in any way afford the absurdly high rents now being charged, so they are throwing themselves on the mercy of the state. They have no option. When people are paying 85% of their income on rent they will become absolutely desperate.

I think it is shameful that people like yourself won't admit the problems being caused by ultra-low interest, simply out of pure self-interest.

stoploss
20-01-2021, 04:46 PM
Supply is the issue? If we build more houses they get snapped up by immigrants, plus property speculators gorging on virtually free money.....and still more people will keep coming.
If you admit that places like Papamoa, Pokeno, and East Auckland are growing like Topsy then you would be saying that the current plan to cover ever square inch of NZ land in housing is simply unsustainable. Already some of our best horticultural land at Pukekohe is being covered in the growing army of houses....it never stops!!

I don't know whether you are a real estate agent, or someone who is enjoying the vurtually free money coming your way - but there is no shame in admitting that virtually free money being shovelled out by The Reserve Bank and it's vassal retail banks is what is providing the fuel for this fire.
But you won't, because it doesn't suit your agenda. The last thing you want is for interest rates to go up because then you would be paying a fair rate on borrowed money, and savers could earn a fair return.

More people will be joining the 22,000 on the waiting list - mark my words. They will be doing it because they cannot in any way afford the absurdly high rents now being charged, so they are throwing themselves on the mercy of the state. They have no option. When people are paying 85% of their income on rent they will become absolutely desperate.

I think it is shameful that people like yourself won't admit the problems being caused by ultra-low interest, simply out of pure self-interest.
Immigrants - you are a bit behind on the policy ...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45199034
I never said I agreed with where interest rates are , just that supply was the issue and putting rates back to 5 % isn't going to change this.
I am glad you agree that supply is the issue , I also agree that the social housing waiting list is going North and have little faith in the current governments ability to do anything about it. The sharp increase in the waitlist imo is caused by the tougher landlord rules around tenants .... So more regulation just like foreign buyer ban that has had a negative effect ....
" The last thing I want is for interest rates to go up ?"- For every dollar of debt I actually have 16 investable dollars so you are wrong on that point as well.
You sound a bit sore about low rates , maybe stop fighting it go with the flow , adapt your investment strategies to the current market .....

Logen Ninefingers
20-01-2021, 05:11 PM
Immigrants - you are a bit behind on the policy ...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45199034
I never said I agreed with where interest rates are , just that supply was the issue and putting rates back to 5 % isn't going to change this.
I am glad you agree that supply is the issue , I also agree that the social housing waiting list is going North and have little faith in the current governments ability to do anything about it. The sharp increase in the waitlist imo is caused by the tougher landlord rules around tenants .... So more regulation just like foreign buyer ban that has had a negative effect ....
" The last thing I want is for interest rates to go up ?"- For every dollar of debt I actually have 16 investable dollars so you are wrong on that point as well.
You sound a bit sore about low rates , maybe stop fighting it go with the flow , adapt your investment strategies to the current market .....

You do realise the difference between foreign buyers and immigrants, surely????
This is pretty basic stuff.
I talk about immigration numbers - a policy setting that can be changed btw - and you send me a link to an article about a ban on foreign buyers.
Come on, surely you are not that clueless. I will chalk it up to you just being disingenuous, or clutching at straws.

Secondly, for you to say "I'm glad you agree that supply is an issue" indicates you didn't bother to read my post. The issue is the supply of ultra-cheap money + government subsidies and policy settings that are fuelling the market. A lot of people are just flipping amongst themselves. Bob and Suzie buy a house for $850,000 and flip it for $1.2 million. Now Bob and Suzie are on the move to another purchase. And around and around we go. How much of the market is made up of this sort of carry-on?

You sound a bit sore about low rates , maybe stop fighting it go with the flow , adapt your investment strategies to the current market .....

What I'm 'sore' about is the destruction of a capitalist system that had depositors and investors at it's heart, and it's replacement with total Central Bank control as manifested by suppression of interest rates for over a decade & 'Quantative Easing' as a means of feeding government spending and feeding property speculators with dirt-cheap funds.
Apparently we are getting 'richer' when you look at property prices....but when you look at our nations debt levels and surging inequality, we are actually getting poorer.

Balance
20-01-2021, 05:26 PM
Every eligible Singaporean is guaranteed a new flat built by the government there - based upon their income.

Sounds like socialism mate. The government builds all these boxy flats here in NZ while Balance enjoys dirt-cheap money at someone else's expense, sipping champagne in his mansion.

That's the fate of NZ's next generation: "Let them eat cake! Let them live in a box in a tower block!"

Let's end the farce of favouring borrowers and speculators over savers, and start gradually pushing up interest rates. Let's turn of the tap of virtually free money that is powering the housing market. Let it stand or fall on it's on feet!!

Fact check :

1. Singapore is infinitely more capitalist and free market than NZ (especially today) will ever be. The government there recognized a long long time ago that affordable housing is a basic requirement for its people & a human right and put in place a massive home building program to make that happen. No difference from NZ during the state housing building sprees of the 50s, 60s and 70s. Difference is that Singapore put in a long term policy & strategy - NZ decided to chop and change, and created a disaster.

2. Most of us on ST are investors and by inference, dirt-cheap money means we have no choice but to invest our hard earned savings wisely in other asset classes be them shares, properties or businesses. We sip champagne with our crayfish & caviar because we invest well, not because we borrow cheap money and spend like Cynical Cindy with an unlimited credit card.

3. Nothing wrong with tower blocks when they are built with superb facilities like recreations (parks, pools, gyms etc), shops, restaurants and superb infrastructure (walking distance to air-con public transport!).

Compare and contrast with the shoe-boxes built in NZ, especially in Auckland CBD.

Compare and contrast with the shoebox 3 level terrace units being built all over Auckland now to house state tenants and for Kiwibuild!


4. Stop the ever expanding welfare system in NZ which we all know is ballooning out of control - that's the simple answer to start ending ALL OF NZ's problems.

dobby41
20-01-2021, 05:28 PM
A lot of people are just flipping amongst themselves. Bob and Suzie buy a house for $850,000 and flip it for $1.2 million. Now Bob and Suzie are on the move to another purchase. And around and around we go. How much of the market is made up of this sort of carry-on?

Do you have a number for 'a lot of people'?
So, how much of the market is made up of this sort of things?

(PS - flipping is a business and taxed but that doesn't help property prices.)

dobby41
20-01-2021, 06:10 PM
Fact check :

1. Singapore is infinitely more capitalist and free market than NZ (especially today) will ever be. The government there recognized a long long time ago that affordable housing is a basic requirement for its people & a human right and put in place a massive home building program to make that happen. No difference from NZ during the state housing building sprees of the 50s, 60s and 70s. Difference is that Singapore put in a long term policy & strategy - NZ decided to chop and change, and created a disaster.

4. Stop the ever expanding welfare system in NZ which we all know is ballooning out of control - that's the simple answer to start ending ALL OF NZ's problems.

I'd agree that having a long-term strategy and being able to implement it via being the Govt for a long period helps.
But note that their idea of housing and ours isn't the same - I doubt many in NZ would be willing to live like the Singaporeans.

Of course, providing state-subsidised housing is a form of social welfare that you want to reduce.
But to the list of social welfare, I'd add the corporate welfare in the form of Working for Families that allows businesses to pay people less than a living wage because the taxpayer subsidises it.

Logen Ninefingers
20-01-2021, 06:39 PM
I'd agree that having a long-term strategy and being able to implement it via being the Govt for a long period helps.
But note that their idea of housing and ours isn't the same - I doubt many in NZ would be willing to live like the Singaporeans.

Of course, providing state-subsidised housing is a form of social welfare that you want to reduce.
But to the list of social welfare, I'd add the corporate welfare in the form of Working for Families that allows businesses to pay people less than a living wage because the taxpayer subsidises it.

I agree. The issue is the feeling of entitlement amongst middle NZ who say things like "I pay my taxes, I deserve a hand out" or think that exponential capital gains are fair and just because they "work hard".
Currently we are a nation of people that are rorting the system for all it is worth, and putting the cost on the ever increasing national debt.
There is no easy way out of this either as the whole house of cards is built on subsidies. Dirt-cheap interest rates are a subsidy paid to borrowers at the expense of savers, and then you have direct subsidies paid by the government in the form of deposit grants to first home buyers.

Balance
20-01-2021, 06:41 PM
I'd agree that having a long-term strategy and being able to implement it via being the Govt for a long period helps.
But note that their idea of housing and ours isn't the same - I doubt many in NZ would be willing to live like the Singaporeans.

Of course, providing state-subsidised housing is a form of social welfare that you want to reduce.
But to the list of social welfare, I'd add the corporate welfare in the form of Working for Families that allows businesses to pay people less than a living wage because the taxpayer subsidises it.

NZers are being very very badly served by the high density housing being built now to supply the desperately short housing market. Come to Auckland's largest urban housing regeneration project, Tamaki Regeneration and observe the mess that NZ is making of the regeneration - small units squeezed tightly together, cheek to jowl, with bugger all facilities and carparks! Then, look at the messy 6 to 10 storey high rises being built now all over Auckland. And people are buying and moving into them.

Singapore's HDB ain't no state subsidized housing provider! It is a highly profitable entity in its own right!

Two of my good friends returned from Singapore after working there on expat terms for a decade - they know everything to know about housing and integrated developments as she is ex-Fletcher Building and he is ex Fonterra.

Logen Ninefingers
20-01-2021, 06:54 PM
Fact check :

1. Singapore is infinitely more capitalist and free market than NZ (especially today) will ever be. The government there recognized a long long time ago that affordable housing is a basic requirement for its people & a human right and put in place a massive home building program to make that happen. No difference from NZ during the state housing building sprees of the 50s, 60s and 70s. Difference is that Singapore put in a long term policy & strategy - NZ decided to chop and change, and created a disaster.

2. Most of us on ST are investors and by inference, dirt-cheap money means we have no choice but to invest our hard earned savings wisely in other asset classes be them shares, properties or businesses. We sip champagne with our crayfish & caviar because we invest well, not because we borrow cheap money and spend like Cynical Cindy with an unlimited credit card.

3. Nothing wrong with tower blocks when they are built with superb facilities like recreations (parks, pools, gyms etc), shops, restaurants and superb infrastructure (walking distance to air-con public transport!).

Compare and contrast with the shoe-boxes built in NZ, especially in Auckland CBD.

Compare and contrast with the shoebox 3 level terrace units being built all over Auckland now to house state tenants and for Kiwibuild!


4. Stop the ever expanding welfare system in NZ which we all know is ballooning out of control - that's the simple answer to start ending ALL OF NZ's problems.

4. Stop the ever expanding welfare system in NZ which we all know is ballooning out of control - that's the simple answer to start ending ALL OF NZ's problems.

The problem at the heart of NZ's problems is that we have chucked free market capitalism in the bin, and have put all our eggs in one basket: the property ponzi scheme. All the moves we now make are made with two eyes on how it will effect the property market. Hence ongoing interest rate suppression and the crazy money printing experiment that we have embarked on.

If housing supply was really the issue, then why does the state drop it's nuts every time the market looks like it might drop?

We have a government desperate to maintain the illusion that the market is affordable and first home buyers can still get in....so they pay 'deposit grants', and these will only increase. This is a subsidy. This is welfare. This is a rort of the taxpayer.

The Reserve Bank has 'printed' tens of billions for a 'funding for lending' programme, and by far and away the place the retail banks are pumping this money is into housing. Again, this has nothing whatsoever to do with supply.

Interest rate suppression is criminal, IMO. It is clearly a measure designed to distort the market unfairly, and deprives depositors of their rightful returns. This is not capitalism!

Logen Ninefingers
20-01-2021, 06:57 PM
NZers are being very very badly served by the high density housing being built now to supply the desperately short housing market. Come to Auckland's largest urban housing regeneration project, Tamaki Regeneration and observe the mess that NZ is making of the regeneration - small units squeezed tightly together, cheek to jowl, with bugger all facilities and carparks! Then, look at the messy 6 to 10 storey high rises being built now all over Auckland. And people are buying and moving into them.

Singapore's HDB ain't no state subsidized housing provider! It is a highly profitable entity in its own right!

Two of my good friends returned from Singapore after working there on expat terms for a decade - they know everything to know about housing and integrated developments as she is ex-Fletcher Building and he is ex Fonterra.

Do you think we might be slightly behind the 8 ball?

HDB take loans from the government for the construction of public housing and in turn provide mortgage loans to citizens to purchase the flats. The Home Ownership for the People program was launched in 1964, but mass adoption only took off in 1968 with amendments to Central Provident Fund that enable its use for the payments of the monthly mortgages to HDB. [7]

Balance
20-01-2021, 06:57 PM
[I]

Interest rate suppression is criminal, IMO. It is clearly a measure designed to distort the market unfairly, and deprives depositors of their rightful returns. This is not capitalism!

I don't disagree with you but in the face of the worse economic crisis the world has known since the Great Depression, there is a requirement to cushion the impact.

If you have an alternative, I am sure governments right around the world would embrace the alternative.

Balance
20-01-2021, 07:04 PM
Do you think we might be slightly behind the 8 ball?

HDB take loans from the government for the construction of public housing and in turn provide mortgage loans to citizens to purchase the flats. The Home Ownership for the People program was launched in 1964, but mass adoption only took off in 1968 with amendments to Central Provident Fund that enable its use for the payments of the monthly mortgages to HDB. [7]

My two good friends had (by law) to contribute 20% of their salaries into the Central Provident Fund and their employers, 17% per annum. So they both saved 37% (yes, 37%) of their salaries every year. The requirement applies to all Singaporeans and expats who are PR.

The CPF in turn provide loans for housing amongst other things.

One of the best things left by the British when they administered Singapore and Singapore improved on.

In contrast, the buffoon Muldoon scraped compulsory super in 1976 and the rest is history.

Logen Ninefingers
20-01-2021, 07:06 PM
I don't disagree with you but in the face of the worse economic crisis the world has known since the Great Depression, there is a requirement to cushion the impact.

If you have an alternative, I am sure governments right around the world would embrace the alternative.

What 'economic crisis'? House prices are going through the roof, there is an unbelieveable amount of money sloshing around. So pull the other one, it's got bells on: cushion what impact? We are all obviously 'rich'. This is a case of having your cake and eating it: a nation crying poor while at the same time going on a spending binge for the ages. The paradox is extraordinary. As I've stated previously, the OCR was at a pathetic 1% prior to anyone even hearing about COVID, and our unelected Central Bankers and gutless governments were probably itching to find an excuse to start printing money - and the pandemic provided one. Now that they've opened Pandora's Box, we are stuffed. There is no way back, no exit strategy.

Logen Ninefingers
20-01-2021, 07:12 PM
My two good friends had (by law) to contribute 20% of their salaries into the Central Provident Fund and their employers, 17% per annum. So they both saved 37% (yes, 37%) of their salaries every year. The requirement applies to all Singaporeans and expats who are PR.

The CPF in turn provide loans for housing amongst other things.

One of the best things left by the British when they administered Singapore and Singapore improved on.

In contrast, the buffoon Muldoon scraped compulsory super in 1976 and the rest is history.

All I am saying is that they launched this in 1964, and ramped it up in 1968. Goodness nows how many homes they have built since then.
Meanwhile, here in NZ we have not even begun...and it is 2021.
I imagine you could build pretty cheaply in the 1960's....

KiwiBuild was never going to happen. No way does the state want lower prices. Telling people that prices will drop is political suicide when so many have 'bet the farm' on housing. We are stuffed.

Balance
20-01-2021, 07:17 PM
All I am saying is that they launched this in 1964, and ramped it up in 1968. Goodness nows how many homes they have built since then.
Meanwhile, here in NZ we have not even begun...and it is 2021.
I imagine you could build pretty cheaply in the 1960's....

KiwiBuild was never going to happen. No way does the state want lower prices. Telling people that prices will drop is political suicide when so many have 'bet the farm' on housing. We are stuffed.

They are still building today, LN - at today's costs. All Singaporeans are guaranteed a new home with repayments pegged to their incomes so the demand is relentless but the government there can meet the demand.

And of course, NZ built plenty of state homes cheaply during the 50s, 60s and 70s too.

We have really really dropped the ball big time in NZ when it comes to housing - from 1st world to 3rd world?

Kiwibuild - what a great con that was, wasn't it by Cynical Cindy & her team of incompetents to scam young NZers into voting them in for 'affordable' housing!

Logen Ninefingers
20-01-2021, 08:57 PM
Yes, it was a great big con - and now many of these same young people have been ‘forced’ by societal pressure into taking on enormous debt. It’s a disgrace, it really is. Adrian Orr should hang his head in shame. What a mess.

Logen Ninefingers
20-01-2021, 09:32 PM
Rent subsidies paid by the central government are forecast to rise from $2.6b last year to $4.2b by 2025. They have already risen from $1.9b over the last four years, Treasury figures show.

artemis
21-01-2021, 07:14 AM
Rent subsidies paid by the central government are forecast to rise from $2.6b last year to $4.2b by 2025. They have already risen from $1.9b over the last four years, Treasury figures show.

Just under $100 million a month taxpayer subsidy for 70,000 social housing tenants paying income related rent. That's an average of $17,000 a year, $330 per week rent paid by the taxpayer. No wonder the waiting list is going through the roof.

Also that number doesn't include those in transitional (motel etc) housing who now also pay income related rent - approx 4,000 households - and are even more heavily subsidised.

The waiting list has quadrupled in 3 years, and the government tells us it is because people now know their entitlement. Anyone believe that?

Logen Ninefingers
21-01-2021, 07:51 AM
The government is set to announce its new ‘KiwiHouse’ policy, a government (taxpayer) backed scheme whereby every home owner has a government guaranteed double digit paper capital gain in any property they own. Under the scheme, the state committs to keep interest rates permanently low, and will simply print money if the supply of housing funding starts to wane. Anyone unable to come up with a deposit will simply be paid a government (taxpayer) grant to get them through the door. Any renters disadvantaged by climbing rents (climbing in concert with house prices) will simply have their rent subsidised by government (taxpayers) grants. Anyone completely locked out of the market will simply be housed by the government at taxpayer expense.

Hang on, we already have this (ponzi) scheme in place, and it is fully underwritten by the government (taxpayer).

dobby41
21-01-2021, 08:25 AM
My two good friends had (by law) to contribute 20% of their salaries into the Central Provident Fund and their employers, 17% per annum. So they both saved 37% (yes, 37%) of their salaries every year. The requirement applies to all Singaporeans and expats who are PR.

The CPF in turn provide loans for housing amongst other things.

One of the best things left by the British when they administered Singapore and Singapore improved on.

In contrast, the buffoon Muldoon scraped compulsory super in 1976 and the rest is history.

So you think you could move this to NZ and it would work?
It is hard to take bits and pieces of other countries policies and expect them to work as a whole in NZ.
For a start the people are different and have different expectations.

And, yes, National screwed things up some time ago and we now suffer.

artemis
21-01-2021, 09:47 AM
.....

And, yes, National screwed things up some time ago and we now suffer.

Not saying you are wrong, but what exactly do you think they screwed up in the housing market?

fungus pudding
21-01-2021, 10:17 AM
Not saying you are wrong, but what exactly do you think they screwed up in the housing market?
Is that a serious question?

Logen Ninefingers
21-01-2021, 11:06 AM
The housing 'market' and country / taxpayer / future generations were screwed as soon as Central Banks went all-in on their daft 'wealth effect' and governments starting underwriting buyers and absolving them of risk.

"Darling, should we really be paying $1.6 Million for this house?"
"No problem babe, the government won't let us ever get into negative equity. It's the taxpayers problem now. We can pay any old price we like, and it'll never be our problem!"

This is the difference between investing, & a government backed rort. Once the government commits to bailing out market particpants come what may, then is no limit on where prices will go.

--------------

Ardern was asked whether the Government’s latest and ongoing housing policy reset was really only wanting house price inflation to moderate to around last year’s 4 per cent rise, rather than for house prices to actually fall. What would be so bad about a fall in house prices, she was asked.

“It is much more sustainable to have those much smaller increases. I think people expect that you see that in the market,” Ardern said.

“What we also accept is that for most New Zealanders, their house is their most significant asset. So if you see, for instance – as was predicted at the beginning of the year – a significant crash in the housing market, that impacts, of course, people’s most significant asset,” she said.



Here’s the full transcript to show how the admission came:

Tibshraeny: But just – sorry, one more thing. When I–

PM: Your one question!

Tibshraeny: – go to buy shares, I don’t expect that they will always increase. That’s the part of an investment, they go up and they go down, so why –

PM: And you have got into the heart of the issue.

Tibshraeny: Why is it different for housing?

PM: This gets to the heart of the issue of why so many New Zealanders turn to the housing market. Thanks.”

The prime minister then walked up past Tibshraeny and left the Beehive Theatrette.

artemis
21-01-2021, 01:21 PM
Is that a serious question?

Yes. Though there were all those families living in cars, according to John Campbell.

fungus pudding
21-01-2021, 02:14 PM
Yes. Though there were all those families living in cars, according to John Campbell.

So where did they screw up? Think Twyford.

Logen Ninefingers
21-01-2021, 02:30 PM
Nice one fellas, keep on with your 'Left vs Right' tribalism and ignore the role of Central Banks in all this.

The Reserve Bank is so powerful the best that Minister Robertson can do is write a letter to the Governor asking him if he wouldn't mind considering something.

stoploss
21-01-2021, 02:37 PM
Nice one fellas, keep on with your 'Left vs Right' tribalism and ignore the role of Central Banks in all this.

The Reserve Bank is so powerful the best that Minister Robertson can do is write a letter to the Governor asking him if he wouldn't mind considering something.
Maybe take your crusade up on the following thread , RBNZ being independent and all ,best to keep them out of the political debate.
https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?11274-ADRIAN-ORR-our-NEW-RBNZ-GOVERNOR/page9

dobby41
21-01-2021, 02:47 PM
The Reserve Bank is so powerful the best that Minister Robertson can do is write a letter to the Governor asking him if he wouldn't mind considering something.

So powerful?
The RBNZ is independent by design (by law).

artemis
21-01-2021, 02:53 PM
So where did they screw up? Think Twyford.

That is my question to dobby41 who referred to National screwing up.

dobby41
21-01-2021, 03:18 PM
That is my question to dobby41 who referred to National screwing up.

And my post was in answer to the idea from Balance that we should do as Singapore do. It was then pointed out that they use their Sovereign fund and that National (Muldoon) scrapped ours way back.
Context is everything!

Of course, Key kept saying that there wasn't a housing problem so wouldn't do anything to help.