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couta1
04-04-2022, 11:15 AM
They still have a lot more respect than the ****wits they had to deal with at the protest. You don't have a clue, over 90% of those at the protest were your average hard working kiwis(Apart from the ones that lost their jobs due to the mandates) You probably follow and believe all the lies on Govt bought MSM in NZ. Some of the actions I saw by the cops were downright disgusting and don't underestimate the ill feeling toward them.

davflaws
04-04-2022, 11:35 AM
You probably follow and believe all the lies on Govt bought MSM in NZ.

I look at MSM and I follow lots of alternative links. I know half a dozen people who were at the "protest" and have talked to them at some length. Many of the protestors were average Joes and Joesses. Some of the police behaved badly off camera and will probably not be held accountable.

But unless you believe that the ****wits throwing stuff at the police were actors or "provocateurs", and that someone "just happened" to have a sledgehammer to break pavement for missiles - the violence was planned.

Two of the people I talked to who were there said that it (the protest) started to turn nasty after the Destiny Church guys arrived, and that they clearly had an agenda for confrontation.

Whatever happened "off camera"- I saw the police behaving with tolerance and restraint and I applaud their judgement and wisdom.

couta1
04-04-2022, 11:42 AM
I look at MSM and I follow lots of alternative links. I know half a dozen people who were at the "protest" and have talked to them at some length. Many of the protestors were average Joes and Joesses. Some of the police behaved badly off camera and will probably not be held accountable.

But unless you believe that the ****wits throwing stuff at the police were actors or "provocateurs", and that someone "just happened" to have a sledgehammer to break pavement for missiles - the violence was planned.

Two of the people I talked to who were there said that it (the protest) started to turn nasty after the Destiny Church guys arrived, and that they clearly had an agenda for confrontation.

Whatever happened "off camera"- I saw the police behaving with tolerance and restraint and I applaud their judgement and wisdom. Your always going to get the radical fringe element that turn up (A lot that were there on the last day were of that group) Lots of the likes of Antifa wearing masks chucking stuff and running away, witnessesed a young woman trying to set a hedge on fire that happens to be involved with the local mongrol mob in the area I live so yeah.

moka
04-04-2022, 11:46 AM
The judge’s remarks about a man who was jailed for threatening to kill Jacinda Ardern in relentless emails, apply to some of those who make comments on this thread.

“You have a complete lack of insight. You have a high sense of entitlement,” the judge said, citing the reports, according to the Herald. “You simply don’t recognise acceptable boundaries.”

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/128216739/man-jailed-after-threatening-to-kill-jacinda-ardern-in-relentless-emails


62 minutes before you posted this you posted about people making personal attacks, not political debate. Go figure !!iceman, the judge’s remarks are about the issue of inappropriate behaviour. The judge is not making a personal attack, although some people may see any criticism of their behaviour as a personal attack. Both Blue Skies and dobby41 named the issue of inappropriate behaviour in recent posts.


Agreed! I have been thoroughly sickened by the level of vile twisted mysoginist & racist comments on here recently. ...............



This thread seems to have taken a turn for the worse lately and is full of utter claptrap from some very misogynistic people.
Take a break people until you can post something sensible and useful.

winner69
04-04-2022, 04:12 PM
seems we are stuck in red for a while longer

more important to help ukraine and end messages to russia saying they need to answer to the world

Balance
04-04-2022, 08:49 PM
Watching Cindy

grimacing (as if in pain), ducking and diving

on TV3 now to try and spin her way out of her claim last week

that

there is no backlog of breast screening when there is a backlog of 50,000!

Such a shame - all those years ahead of her which should be her best years yet but she has already turned into an untrustworthy consummate liar.

What she said last week :

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZSdj3w255/

What she said today:

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZSdj3PTjU/

You can tell she is lying whenever she opens her mouth - that’s Cindy.

moka
04-04-2022, 09:27 PM
Let’s start the debate, moka.

Your turn next.Thanks for the invitation to debate, but I don’t do debates because I am incompetent at them.
I also don’t like debates because they seem to be more about point scoring and winning than trying to discuss the issues and get to the truth. So, someone arguing the world is flat could win a debate.

I will do discussions though, although I don’t follow politics closely so I am not well informed.

Balance
05-04-2022, 08:28 AM
Thanks for the invitation to debate, but I don’t do debates because I am incompetent at them.
I also don’t like debates because they seem to be more about point scoring and winning than trying to discuss the issues and get to the truth. So, someone arguing the world is flat could win a debate.

I will do discussions though, although I don’t follow politics closely so I am not well informed.

Let’s start discussing how Cindy has failed to deliver on every major promise she made to get elected then.

Let’s start with housing.

Then, let’s move onto her promise to be the most transparent and accountable government NZ will have.

Still think she is competent?

couta1
05-04-2022, 09:13 AM
Let’s start discussing how Cindy has failed to deliver on every major promise she made to get elected then.

Let’s start with housing.

Then, let’s move onto her promise to be the most transparent and accountable government NZ will have.

Still think she is competent? As Barry Soper said this morning, she is just a cracked record and has been for 2 yrs now, keep things in Red as long as possible to remain in control and keep her in the Covid limelight, there's nothing else to stop a continued drop in popularity but the masses are seeing through all the spin and bs now.

Balance
05-04-2022, 09:24 AM
As Barry Soper said this morning, she is just a cracked record and has been for 2 yrs now, keep things in Red as long as possible to remain in control and keep her in the Covid limelight, there's nothing else to stop a continued drop in popularity but the masses are seeing through all the spin and bs now.

Indeed, couta1.

Even Labour’s favourite newscaster has had enough - watch as she takes a chunk off them:

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZSd6FSyBd/

Panda-NZ-
05-04-2022, 02:00 PM
As Barry Soper said this morning, she is just a cracked record and has been for 2 yrs now, keep things in Red as long as possible to remain in control and keep her in the Covid limelight, there's nothing else to stop a continued drop in popularity but the masses are seeing through all the spin and bs now.

They already have the power -- they can do what they like, with 8 greens to spare.

The fact she hasn't means that she must respect the voters.

Panda-NZ-
05-04-2022, 02:02 PM
The Aussie banks should be made to pay $1b into an NZ prosperity fund I think to reflect this reality.

In the worst case they could be nationalised without compensation.

Balance
05-04-2022, 02:04 PM
As Barry Soper said this morning, she is just a cracked record and has been for 2 yrs now, keep things in Red as long as possible to remain in control and keep her in the Covid limelight, there's nothing else to stop a continued drop in popularity but the masses are seeing through all the spin and bs now.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1646594748412-T3UQTIGVD5TOS3N1H9JC/promises.jpg?format=500w

couta1
05-04-2022, 02:34 PM
They already have the power -- they can do what they like.

The fact she hasn't means she respects the voters unlike sir john (GST, ignoring asset sales referendum). No other leader in NZ history has caused such division in society, they have abused their power big time and it looks like the sheeple are no longer wool blind.

Panda-NZ-
05-04-2022, 02:38 PM
No other leader in NZ history has caused such division in society, they have abused their power big time and it looks like the sheeple are no longer wool blind.

The 95% vs the 5% of disaffected.

Look to the UK or US for real division.

couta1
05-04-2022, 03:13 PM
The 95% vs the 5% of disaffected.

Look to the UK or US for real division. Do you think all the 95% were or are in any way happy with their choice under duress? think again, more like a 50/50 if a survey was done now. US people don't bow down to one source of truth from the pulpit of supposed truth, having the guts to decide for yourself is not division.

iceman
05-04-2022, 04:55 PM
They already have the power -- they can do what they like.

The fact she hasn't means she respects the voters unlike sir john (GST , ignoring asset sales referendum).

Man you are good at trying to rewrite history with your blatant and frequent lies on here. John Key went to an election with the assets sale policy and won. Did Jacinda mention any of her divisive policies in the election campaign and run on them ? No I didn't think so.

Panda-NZ-
05-04-2022, 04:57 PM
A citizens inititiated referendum is huge as it doesnt happen often. It shows there was clear discontent with their main policy.

Also there was a draft constitution being written behind closed doors with maori party endorsement.

777
05-04-2022, 04:59 PM
I wonder what the real reason that the Military is not going to attend ANZAC day functions. Covid seems a little convenient.

Bill Smith
05-04-2022, 04:59 PM
The Aussie banks should be made to pay $1b into an NZ prosperity fund I think to reflect this reality.

In the worst case they could be nationalised without compensation.

Well that's they way they do it in CCP. Are you so affiliated?

Panda-NZ-
05-04-2022, 05:02 PM
Well that's they way they do it in CCP. Are you so affiliated?

More like being pro-NZ.

It should have been used as leverage to get better migration rights with Australia.

iceman
05-04-2022, 06:21 PM
Once again this Government proves to be a Government of meaningless talk and no action. Unlike other western countries proving to be real friends of Ukraine, we do nothing. Shameful https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/russia-ukraine-war-nz-defence-minister-asked-to-give-ukraine-lethal-aid-cabinet-said-no/FOL66ATLDASTPTA6ZTT763PKOY/

moka
05-04-2022, 11:07 PM
Once again this Government proves to be a Government of meaningless talk and no action. Unlike other western countries proving to be real friends of Ukraine, we do nothing. Shameful https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/russia-ukraine-war-nz-defence-minister-asked-to-give-ukraine-lethal-aid-cabinet-said-no/FOL66ATLDASTPTA6ZTT763PKOY/We are doing something.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/ukraine-war-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-absolutely-accepts-global-security-situation-has-changed-considerably.html

Last week the Government dispatched nine Defence Force analysts to Britain and Belgium to assist with the response to Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, which began on February 24.
The Defence Force will also help European partners by gathering intelligence about the war during their nighttime hours, "taking advantage of the time zone difference".

The Government also announced a $5 million donation to NATO [the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation] for non-lethal military aid to support Ukraine. It would be primarily directed to the NATO Trust Fund which provides fuel, military rations, communications and military first aid kits to support Ukraine.

Balance
06-04-2022, 07:48 AM
We are doing something.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/ukraine-war-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-absolutely-accepts-global-security-situation-has-changed-considerably.html

Last week the Government dispatched nine Defence Force analysts to Britain and Belgium to assist with the response to Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, which began on February 24.
The Defence Force will also help European partners by gathering intelligence about the war during their nighttime hours, "taking advantage of the time zone difference".

The Government also announced a $5 million donation to NATO [the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation] for non-lethal military aid to support Ukraine. It would be primarily directed to the NATO Trust Fund which provides fuel, military rations, communications and military first aid kits to support Ukraine.

$5m?

Try $3m given to gangs to sell drugs more effectively.

How about $56m for a cycle bridge which has been scrapped?

Then, $120m to fix maraes and create 3,000 jobs when only 150 jobs have been created.

Kinda puts NZ ‘doing something’ in perspective huh?

couta1
06-04-2022, 09:09 AM
$5m?

Try $3m given to gangs to sell drugs more effectively.

How about $56m for a cycle bridge which has been scrapped?

Then, $120m to fix maraes and create 3,000 jobs when only 150 jobs have been created.

Kinda puts NZ ‘doing something’ in perspective huh? How about the absolutely obscene amount of over 300m in total to encourage Maori to get vaccinated, where did this money go to and how many extra Maori got vaccinated because of it? Imagine how much the hospital system could have been improved for the benefit of all with that money.

winner69
06-04-2022, 10:41 AM
Director-General of Health Ashley Bloomfield to step down from role

Panda-NZ-
06-04-2022, 10:46 AM
$5m?

Try $3m given to gangs to sell drugs more effectively.

How about $56m for a cycle bridge which has been scrapped?



How about Aussies exporting their career criminals to our shores with their banks turning a blind eye to money laundering.

Panda-NZ-
06-04-2022, 01:52 PM
It might be time to ban cash which is rather worthless from inflation anyway.

couta1
06-04-2022, 02:40 PM
It might be time to ban cash which is rather worthless from inflation anyway. You sound like another WEF puppet like Cindy.

Panda-NZ-
06-04-2022, 02:42 PM
You can still keep gold or whatever else you like in its place. Though the transactions will have records.

couta1
06-04-2022, 03:02 PM
21.7 million of expired vaccines dumped including 11.7 million of shingles vaccines, shingles vaccines are free for 65-66 yr olds, why weren't they offered to anyone over 60? $200 a pop if your under 65 and want one.Nice one Labour.

Balance
06-04-2022, 03:22 PM
How about the absolutely obscene amount of over 300m in total to encourage Maori to get vaccinated, where did this money go to and how many extra Maori got vaccinated because of it? Imagine how much the hospital system could have been improved for the benefit of all with that money.

Got the results alright - South Auckland vaccination centres were giving $150 Pak n Save vouchers for vaccinations so whole families were turning up, collecting hundreds of dollars of vouchers.

Even people from other suburbs were going there to get the free vouchers.

Forget about people helping themselves - this government is all about creating dependents & beneficiaries. Ideal Labour voters, see?

couta1
06-04-2022, 03:36 PM
Got the results alright - South Auckland vaccination centres were giving $150 Park n Save vouchers for vaccinations so whole families were turning up, collecting hundreds of dollars of vouchers.

Even people from other suburbs were going there to get the free vouchers.

Forget about people;e helping themselves - this government is all about creating dependents & beneficiaries. Ideal Labour voters, see? Disgraceful divisive behaviour, what about all the other races who didn't want the vaccine but took it to put bread on their tables by keeping their jobs.

Balance
06-04-2022, 05:19 PM
Director-General of Health Ashley Bloomfield to step down from role

A picture tells a thousand words :

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1630552397345-KOXK2FEJEUPVGJEFYBTZ/shortage.jpg?format=500w

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1646594748412-T3UQTIGVD5TOS3N1H9JC/promises.jpg?format=500w

777
06-04-2022, 06:55 PM
Disgraceful divisive behaviour, what about all the other races who didn't want the vaccine but took it to put bread on their tables by keeping their jobs.

You must be due for another break couta. You're talking crap again.

couta1
06-04-2022, 07:40 PM
You must be due for another break couta. You're talking crap again. Nope that would be the Red spin queen and her sidekicks, a 3 yr plus break from them is well overdue.

Balance
07-04-2022, 11:00 AM
Son of a contact is a cop in Auckland. He related to his father how so many cops were transferred out of Auckland to ‘sort’ out the protest that they were down to 5 active patrol cars for several days to cover the greater Auckland area.

One night, they had 57 serious incidents and they had to prioritise which 5 to attend. That was how bad it got - thanks to how Cindy & Mallard with their woke Police Commissioner so badly handled the Protest situation.

I have no doubts whatsoever that Poto Williams is blocking Mitchell from meeting the police because the government & Labour do not want the truth of just how unhappy & desperate some of the police are.

Confirming that so many cops were seconded to Wellington that criminals & law breakers had a clear run in Auckland for weeks - thanks to Cindy, Mallard & their woke Police Commissioner.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/128288610/one-in-eight-police-staff-seconded-to-wellington-for-parliament-occupation

Just over 1800 police staff – one in eight of the total police work force – were seconded to Wellington during the Parliament occupation between February and March.

Police staffing sits at about 14,000, with about 10,100 in the constabulary. Figures released under the Official Information Act show the 1802 staff who came from outside the Wellington policing district during the protests make up nearly 13 percent of the total work force.

Balance
07-04-2022, 02:02 PM
Police response time to serious crime/incidents has blown out all across NZ since Cindy & Labour took over in 2017 - 316% increase in Auckland!

So it now takes 1 hour and 49 mins for Auckland police to respond compared to just 26 minutes when National was in power.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/04/06/kiwis-having-to-wait-longer-and-longer-for-police-help/

This is what happens when you have a pro-criminal & incompetent government led by a clueless leader and a completely incompetent police minister.

Getty
07-04-2022, 07:39 PM
Police response time to serious crime/incidents has blown out all across NZ since Cindy & Labour took over in 2017 - 316% increase in Auckland!

So it now takes 1 hour and 49 mins for Auckland police to respond compared to just 26 minutes when National was in power.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/04/06/kiwis-having-to-wait-longer-and-longer-for-police-help/



So those new commie SKODAS have not improved since the 1980"s?

Panda-NZ-
07-04-2022, 07:45 PM
So it now takes 1 hour and 49 mins for Auckland police to respond compared to just 26 minutes when National was in power.

Must be stuck in traffic from all the essential workers brought in lol.

iceman
08-04-2022, 12:14 AM
Must be stuck in traffic from all the essential workers brought in lol.

The essential workers brought in by this Government are most likely to do ridesharing, since they all fit in one car. More likely to be foreign DJs causing traffic issues.

Bjauck
08-04-2022, 07:07 AM
There will be more after the way the thug element of them operated at the protest, they have lost a lot respect except amongst criminals and gangs who are laughing at them. Yep. The protestor-trespassers and the thug elements amongst the protestors were allowed to run rough-shod over property, laws and regulations for too long before the police took action. Gangs and law breakers will be strengthened from that period of protest action in occupation of parliamentary grounds and the police tolerance of it for so long.

Bjauck
08-04-2022, 07:23 AM
Confirming that so many cops were seconded to Wellington that criminals & law breakers had a clear run in Auckland for weeks - thanks to Cindy, Mallard & their woke Police Commissioner.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/128288610/one-in-eight-police-staff-seconded-to-wellington-for-parliament-occupation

Just over 1800 police staff – one in eight of the total police work force – were seconded to Wellington during the Parliament occupation between February and March.

Police staffing sits at about 14,000, with about 10,100 in the constabulary. Figures released under the Official Information Act show the 1802 staff who came from outside the Wellington policing district during the protests make up nearly 13 percent of the total work force.
Yep. Helmetless packs of road-rule breaking motorbike riders have become a regular feature of SE Auckland roads. Groups of them ride through children playing in parks. It was definitely a more frequent occurrence this Summer - and the previous Summer had already seen a big increase in them. A big credit is owed to the toleration of law-breaking gangs and those protestors in Wellington that took so much policing this year.

Bjauck
08-04-2022, 07:34 AM
Must be stuck in traffic from all the essential workers brought in lol.Probably way fewer than the numbers of hard working Kiwis keen to get to Australia to get higher salaries and more affordable housing, accomodation and living expenses...

Mind you, I think Morrison is keen to send plenty of criminal 501's back to Aotearoa. So plenty more helmetless bikies may fill the roads...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j7k0vwMPWQ

Balance
08-04-2022, 09:14 AM
Remember how Labour was going to add 1,800 police numbers over its 1st term?

Well, not only has Labour failed to deliver on that promise but gang numbers are increasing much much faster than police numbers :

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/gang-recruits-outstrip-new-cops-under-labour-as-wait-times-for-police-help-explode.html

"Last week Labour MP Helen White shared her concerns about "an increase in gang activity" in Auckland, just days after Police Minister Poto Williams denied there had been a rise in gang violence.

Williams made the remarks despite gang membership rising by nearly 4000 since 2016 and a 49 percent increase in injuries recorded as a result of firearms crime in Auckland in 2021 compared with 2020 and 2019."

Then same Police Minister Poto came out that she did not know about the horrendous increases in police response time, does not WANT to know and does not care - as it is a police matter!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/police-minister-attacked-as-response-times-jump-and-cops-reel-from-gun-crime-covid-demands/TRVGPS3BFEOFKWMAKFNIZAIPG4/

Panda-NZ-
08-04-2022, 10:51 AM
Probably way fewer than the numbers of hard working Kiwis keen to get to Australia to get higher salaries and more affordable housing, accomodation and living expenses...

Many are boomers so they will be returning here claiming superannuation soon.

Getty
08-04-2022, 08:14 PM
Remember how Labour was going to add 1,800 police numbers over its 1st term?

Well, not only has Labour failed to deliver on that promise but gang numbers are increasing much much faster than police numbers :

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/gang-recruits-outstrip-new-cops-under-labour-as-wait-times-for-police-help-explode.html

"Last week Labour MP Helen White shared her concerns about "an increase in gang activity" in Auckland, just days after Police Minister Poto Williams denied there had been a rise in gang violence.

Williams made the remarks despite gang membership rising by nearly 4000 since 2016 and a 49 percent increase in injuries recorded as a result of firearms crime in Auckland in 2021 compared with 2020 and 2019."

Then same Police Minister Poto came out that she did not know about the horrendous increases in police response time, does not WANT to know and does not care - as it is a police matter!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/police-minister-attacked-as-response-times-jump-and-cops-reel-from-gun-crime-covid-demands/TRVGPS3BFEOFKWMAKFNIZAIPG4/

Spot on, that puts Poto's pot on.

iceman
09-04-2022, 07:39 AM
The PM and the Labour Party machine were not very kind to Louisa Wall or anyone that doesn't toe the line and do exactly as the PM says:

(paywalled) https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/louisa-wall-on-quitting-politics-labours-tribalism-and-the-grief-of-leaving-parliament/RLFXSHDPWL7P4LFGKBX5FGAYRQ/

Lets get rd of the problem:
"Wall withdrew in a deal that would give her a winnable place on Labour's list for an understanding she would retire during the current term when a suitable job came up.
That suitable job just came up: a role with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade as a New Zealand-based ambassador trying to improve the empowerment of women in the Pacific and focusing more broadly on LGBTQI+ rights."

and

""Others have suggested that Wall was challenged because she was a polarising figure without enough loyal supporters to fend off a challenge. But Wall clearly feels she was muscled out and her supporters disrespected.

"I might have been the target but there was a lot of collateral damage," says Wall.
"I really do think it is unforgivable.""

Panda-NZ-
09-04-2022, 09:46 AM
Well we know there would be no place for her within National as a maori lgbt+ woman.

Act would for all the good it would do as they return to one MP next election.

Balance
09-04-2022, 10:13 AM
Spot on, that puts Poto's pot on.

Poto Williams - yet another incompetent & self-entitled minister put into the job by Adern just because she is a woman and a non white, not because she is capable or hard working.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/opinion/andrew-dickens-poto-williams-joins-a-growing-list-of-ministers-who-appear-to-enjoy-the-baubles-of-office/

“ ….. she rejects the premise that gang activity has increased despite all the statistics and evidence at hand.

Finally, she abdicates her responsibility on police response times by firstly claiming she did not have the figures, and secondly by claiming it is an operational matter and beyond her gambit.

Poto joins a growing list of Government Ministers who appear to enjoy the baubles of office but resent having to do the actual work.”

iceman
09-04-2022, 10:33 AM
Well we know there would be no place for her within National as a maori lgbt+ woman.

Act would for all the good it would do as they return to one MP next election.

I think you've missed the point again. She was shafted and fired from Labour. It has nothing to do with National or ACT but is a typical deflection tactic from you and Labour.
She arguably pushed through one of the most revolutionary, far reaching and contentious member's bill to ever go through the NZ Parliament. She achieved it after John Key gave it the nod.

Balance
09-04-2022, 05:13 PM
Incompetent and clueless in both police and housing, Poto Williams (appointed because she is female and non white) does not know or acknowledges that :

1. There are 4,500 families with children living in emergency housing

and

2. Waiting list for housing has grown by over 20,000 since Labour became government in Nov 2017.

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2204/S00063/poto-williams-all-at-sea-in-her-portfolios.htm

Same Poto Williams who believes that the rights of South Auckland criminals are more important to protect than arming the police.

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Screen-Shot-2020-11-26-at-4.49.22-PM-1536x974.png

iceman
10-04-2022, 09:06 AM
Pretty much spot on :
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/128287501/the-ardern-govt-has-achieved-close-to-nothing-outside-of-covid

winner69
10-04-2022, 09:10 AM
Louisa Wall - WOW

“I love my party. I love our principles. I love what we stand for. I just think that some of the behaviour of the people in leadership at the moment is completely incongruent with who we are."

I don't think it's sour grapes- more like just pissed off big time

Balance
10-04-2022, 09:13 AM
Pretty much spot on :
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/128287501/the-ardern-govt-has-achieved-close-to-nothing-outside-of-covid

Sums up in this indicting paragraph :

"This government and this prime minister are tainted with a perception of incompetence. Ardern herself seems stuck in her role as the manager of the pandemic and gives the impression she is unwilling to relinquish it."

4.5 years with nothing to show of the huge promises she made to hoodwink NZers to get into government.

But in government, she is hellbent on implementing her non-mandated racist & divisive policies instead.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1646594748412-T3UQTIGVD5TOS3N1H9JC/promises.jpg?format=500w

Getty
10-04-2022, 06:26 PM
Well we know there would be no place for her within National as a maori lgbt+ woman.

Act would for all the good it would do as they return to one MP next election.

Panda, as our resident from the zoo, you would know how much damage claws can do.

As this labour govt is suffering death by 1000 cuts, how many cuts did Louisa Wall's comments today on Q & A , and since on the news, inflict?

Getty
10-04-2022, 08:16 PM
Methinks the Louisa Wall story has more legs to grow and show.

Think about it.

Anyone who is capable of bringing contentious issues to Parliament, and getting support from the other side of the house to get the resolution they seek, must be considered a master politician.
An asset to any political party, never mind a govt in power.

To say that Jacinda was down on her for not supporting Grant Robertson, becomes old news once the other challenger Cunliffe departs the political scene, allowing new allegiances and support to form..

There must be more to the story...

Thursdays valedictory speech could be interesting.

iceman
10-04-2022, 08:50 PM
Methinks the Louisa Wall story has more legs to grow and show.

Think about it.

Anyone who is capable of bringing contentious issues to Parliament, and getting support from the other side of the house to get the resolution they seek, must be considered a master politician.
An asset to any political party, never mind a govt in power.

To say that Jacinda was down on her for not supporting Grant Robertson, becomes old news once the other challenger Cunliffe departs the political scene, allowing new allegiances and support to form..

There must be more to the story...

Thursdays valedictory speech could be interesting.

It shows what a weak leader Jacinda is. She surrounds herself with yes peole, most of them absolutely useless with one failure after another in their portfolios, with zero consequences.

Balance
10-04-2022, 08:58 PM
It shows what a weak leader Jacinda is. She surrounds herself with yes peole, most of them absolutely useless with one failure after another in their portfolios, with zero consequences.

And her ‘yes women & men’ in turn only want ‘yes’ people around them.

Remember how they tried to muzzle Sir Ian Taylor from speaking out about how badly the pandemic was being managed by the government?

And now we are witnessing the dance of the desperates as this Adern government lurches from one crisis to another disaster.

moka
11-04-2022, 06:20 PM
Pretty much spot on :
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/128287501/the-ardern-govt-has-achieved-close-to-nothing-outside-of-covidAn opinion piece from Damien Grant who is an Auckland business owner, a member of the Taxpayers’ Union and a regular opinion contributor for Stuff, writing from a libertarian perspective.
He says “However, the fundamental problem remains. This government and this prime minister are tainted with a perception of incompetence.”

Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and political freedom, and minimize the state. So one way that they do this is to call the government incompetent. It is a disturbing world-wide trend to label governments as incompetent. It is propaganda and it undermines democracy and trust in government. It takes us down a rabbit hole, a disorienting, confusing place that’s hard to get out of, and down into a spiral of negativity, confusion, hopelessness and divisiveness.
Calling the government incompetent is about just focusing on the problem and never getting to a serious discussion about the solutions, and how to achieve them.

Baa_Baa
11-04-2022, 06:30 PM
Calling the government incompetent is about just focusing on the problemand never getting to a serious discussion about the solutions, and how to achieve them.

He reported a "perception of incompetence", that's is not calling the government incompetent. Some people will agree with him because they have that perception, others will disagree.

Apparently you agree there is a problem, with government incompetence. Thus you must have the perception that they are incompetent.

Perceived or not, there is ample evidence that the government lacks competence, whether or not one is focused on it.

Balance
11-04-2022, 07:11 PM
He reported a "perception of incompetence", that's is not calling the government incompetent. Some people will agree with him because they have that perception, others will disagree.

Apparently you agree there is a problem, with government incompetence. Thus you must have the perception that they are incompetent.

Perceived or not, there is ample evidence that the government lacks competence, whether or not one is focused on it.

Just start with Kiwibuild.

moka
11-04-2022, 07:13 PM
He reported a "perception of incompetence", that's is not calling the government incompetent. Some people will agree with him because they have that perception, others will disagree.

Apparently you agree there is a problem, with government incompetence. Thus you must have the perception that they are incompetent.

Perceived or not, there is ample evidence that the government lacks competence, whether or not one is focused on it.
You are incorrect I do not agree there is a problem with government incompetence. I am surprised that you interpreted my post that way.
For me the problem is the frequent calling or labelling of the government as incompetent, and that was what my post was about.

I do not have the perception that the government is incompetent, or less competent than any other government. I think they are competent and that they make mistakes, but overall they do a good job in a very difficult situation.

I see a new thread has been started with the heading The Hypocrisy, Misdeeds & Incompetence of Adern’s Government. That is calling the government incompetent. And if you repeat something often enough it becomes the truth, and that is propaganda.

777
11-04-2022, 07:19 PM
You are incorrect I do not agree there is a problem with government incompetence. I am surprised that you interpreted my post that way.
For me the problem is the frequent calling or labelling of the government as incompetent, and that was what my post was about.

I do not have the perception that the government is incompetent, or less competent than any other government. I think they are competent and that they make mistakes, but overall they do a good job in a very difficult situation.

I see a new thread has been started with the heading The Hypocrisy, Misdeeds & Incompetence of Adern’s Government. That is calling the government incompetent. And if you repeat something often enough it becomes the truth, and that is propaganda.


moka everyone I meet comment on the incompetence of the current government. None, that I know of, read these pages.

Baa_Baa
11-04-2022, 07:42 PM
moka everyone I meet comment on the incompetence of the current government. None, that I know of, read these pages.

That is my experience as well, not a single person holds this government in any regard. Even though some attribute credit to the Prime Minister for her handling of the Kaikoura earthquake, the terrorism of the Muslims and the 2020 phases of Covid, their disdain is mostly towards the government which has achieved very little of what they promised, but worse is all the broken promises. Adern is not the government, though she is the leader of it.

And @moka, if you don't wish to be misunderstood then consider your sentence construction. There is no doubt that as you phrased it, you acknowledged the government problem of incompetence. "Calling the government incompetent is about just focusing on the problem. .. my emphasis.

moka
11-04-2022, 09:55 PM
moka everyone I meet comment on the incompetence of the current government. None, that I know of, read these pages.Re your comment "none read these pages" in my post I did say “It is a disturbing world-wide trend to label governments as incompetent.”

Many Herald articles allude directly or indirectly to the incompetence of the government, and in the comments section many but not all talk about government incompetence. And those who comment negatively seem to be a particular demographic, mostly male with similar political views – sometimes identifying as National or ACT supporters. You have to subscribe to the Herald to comment, so it is not representative of NZ.

So many articles in the Herald are opinion pieces about government decisions rather than reporting the actual news. I found this out today when I searched for what Louisa Wall actually said. This Herald opinion piece doesn’t give me her actual words so I can decide for myself.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/louisa-wall-quits-politics-political-roundup-did-she-get-a-fair-deal-from-labour-and-jacinda-ardern/V2LBEM7TBALOTGHJD3CDK6FSRY/
Louisa Wall quits politics: Political Roundup – Did she get a fair deal from Labour and Jacinda Ardern?

But this article reported what she actually said.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/04/09/louisa-wall-reveals-depth-of-divide-with-labour-leadership/
Wall has always been on the outside of the Ardern-led Labour Party.
“That really for me can be the only explanation, that there are teams within teams and I wasn't on the team that they ultimately decided would be the ones who sat around the cabinet table,” said Wall.
Wall believed she wasn’t backed by the party leadership at the time of her advocacy for marriage equality. “I was told by the chief of staff at the time that if I didn't do things the way that they wanted to do, then I was on my own.

iceman
12-04-2022, 05:03 AM
moka, Wall has been in several interviews. She has been very damning in her criticism of the PM and senior leadership of Labour's caucus. You can search all the articles you like until you find one to suits your line of thought. That's fine. It doesn't change the fact that she feels badly treated by the PM and her henchmen. It is a fact that she would never have gotten her famous Marriage Equality bill over the line without John Key deciding she deserved his support, after Labour leadership did not support her. Quite ironic for the party that talks much about inclusiveness, diversity and kindness, yet display none of it in their actions. Full of hot air they are.

Panda-NZ-
12-04-2022, 07:55 AM
They have stuck with one leader, surely that is competence.

National, the UK and Australia have failed that rather basic test.

Panda-NZ-
12-04-2022, 07:57 AM
An example of media bias a month before an election.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/

Here in contrast we've all heard about miq failures, covid testing etc etc.

Balance
12-04-2022, 08:44 AM
But this article reported what she actually said.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/04/09/louisa-wall-reveals-depth-of-divide-with-labour-leadership/
Wall has always been on the outside of the Ardern-led Labour Party.
“That really for me can be the only explanation, that there are teams within teams and I wasn't on the team that they ultimately decided would be the ones who sat around the cabinet table,” said Wall.
Wall believed she wasn’t backed by the party leadership at the time of her advocacy for marriage equality. “I was told by the chief of staff at the time that if I didn't do things the way that they wanted to do, then I was on my own.

And this is also exactly what Wall said :

https://thespinoff.co.nz/live-updates/10-04-2022/louisa-wall-pm-very-clear-that-she-didnt-want-me-in-her-caucus

"The Prime Minister told me I would never be in her Cabinet. It wasn't just that she didn't want me in her Cabinet, she was obviously very clear she didn't want me in her caucus."

And noteworthy that Adern will not be at her valedictory speech on Thursday - with a lame excuse!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300563234/pm-jacinda-ardern-will-not-attend-louisa-walls-valedictory-speech

"Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern​ has denied she has a strained relationship with outgoing Labour MP Louisa Wall.

But she will not attend Wall’s valedictory speech on Thursday, saying she has travel plans which she won't change."

Fireworks on Thursday? :t_up:

777
12-04-2022, 08:58 AM
They have stuck with one leader, surely that is competence.

National, the UK and Australia have failed that rather basic test.

Of course they have stuck with one leader. They found one after a series of trials. There is no one else to replace her.

Panda-NZ-
12-04-2022, 01:54 PM
Yes and after these trials the best they could do is luxon.

Parachuted into Botany only one year ago.

777
12-04-2022, 02:02 PM
Yes and after these trials the best they could do is luxon.

Parachuted into Botany only one year ago.

So what? Very capable and better than anyone Labour/Greens could find to replace the current PM.

Panda-NZ-
12-04-2022, 02:10 PM
Capable at what?

His speeches in parliament are boring, but interviews ok.

dobby41
12-04-2022, 04:16 PM
Capable at what?

His speeches in parliament are boring, but interviews ok.

Didn't interview here so well
https://youtu.be/vcxOvWlg9wc

Balance
12-04-2022, 04:44 PM
Didn't interview here so well
https://youtu.be/vcxOvWlg9wc

Who cares?

He has managed real businesses with tens of thousands of staff SUCCESSFULLY.

Staff whose livelihoods are dependent upon his effective and progressive management which he delivered.

Meanwhile, he is soaring in the polls unlike his competitor who is dipping in the polls like the spent spinner that she is.

Ardern - all spin and zero delivery.

Panda-NZ-
12-04-2022, 05:07 PM
Who cares?

He has managed real businesses with tens of thousands of staff SUCCESSFULLY.

Air NZ is owned by the govt so his money is nearly all from the taxpayer including the current salary.

Balance
12-04-2022, 06:17 PM
Air NZ is owned by the govt so his money is nearly all from the taxpayer incl the current salary.

Logic of a zoo animal.

777
12-04-2022, 06:59 PM
Air NZ is owned by the govt so his money is nearly all from the taxpayer incl the current salary.

That must qualify as the most ignorant statement by anyone in the lifetime of sharetrader.

Panda-NZ-
13-04-2022, 03:14 AM
True, nearly forgot about the free education too.

iceman
13-04-2022, 04:33 AM
True, nearly forgot about the free education too.

Don't forget Plunket. His mum no doubt got some free gifts from Plunket and maybe even some help.

Then again, the current PM's mum no doubt got the same from Plunket & the PM got a free education as well, like everybody else of their generations in NZ. Great stuff.

The big difference however is that the PM has never held a full time job outside of Government or party politics, whereas Luxon spent 18 years as senior manager in various roles and various countries for Unilever before moving onto his 2 senior roles at Air NZ.

Panda-NZ-
13-04-2022, 07:46 AM
I don't see national complaining much about the 10% repayment flat tax rate, which can be avoided entirely by going overseas

Even though they're into taxes..

Balance
13-04-2022, 07:49 AM
Police minister on her way out - Poto(loo) soon?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/audrey-young-the-three-candidates-who-could-replace-police-minister-poto-williams/XLOETOVUF2JWYYJEZIIKIGCRMY/

Excerpt :

There are some clear choices to replace struggling Police Minister Poto Williams if Labour has any hope of regaining control of the law and order agenda.

Ardern needs one of her best ministers, the ones with political smarts, who can think on their feet, can manage problems in a disciplined and authoritative way, and know how to dampen controversy, not fuel it.

That narrows it down to three people: Megan Woods, Chris Hipkins and Michael Wood.

777
13-04-2022, 08:32 AM
I don't see national complaining much about the 10% repayment flat tax rate, which can be avoided entirely by going overseas

Even though they're into taxes..

You are struggling now.

fungus pudding
13-04-2022, 08:46 AM
Police minister on her way out - Poto(loo) soon?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/audrey-young-the-three-candidates-who-could-replace-police-minister-poto-williams/XLOETOVUF2JWYYJEZIIKIGCRMY/

Fantastic idea - posting articles that next to nobody can access.

Balance
13-04-2022, 09:41 AM
Fantastic idea - posting articles that next to nobody can access.

Was not ‘premium’ article when I posted it.

You would note I usually do a brief excerpt if it is premium.

fungus pudding
13-04-2022, 09:55 AM
Was not ‘premium’ article when I posted it.

You would note I usually do a brief excerpt if it is premium.

Fair enough. Consider yourself forgiven.

iceman
13-04-2022, 12:06 PM
You are struggling now.

Hahaha. My thoughts exactly. I was wondering if he/she was meaning that post for a different discussion on a different forum, in a different universe. Who knows what he/she is talking about :-)

iceman
13-04-2022, 12:20 PM
On a day when many eyes are on the rate of the expected OCR hikes to be announced soon, the Associate Finance Minister, when asked how high the OCR rate is, got it wrong by only 100%. A NOT paywalled article from the Herald as this is posted:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/government-minister-unable-to-correctly-quote-official-cash-rate/MI44RTEYXT7JIUHLSGTKGXZN5A/

winner69
13-04-2022, 01:33 PM
Hipkins apparently a bit confused over mask use under orange at his press conference ..... but as the Minister for the Public Service maybe he doesn't need to know.

dobby41
13-04-2022, 04:54 PM
Hipkins apparently a bit confused over mask use under orange at his press conference ..... but as the Minister for the Public Service maybe he doesn't need to know.

He was and should have been a bit better prepared - but it lasted all of 5 minutes!
And he took sole responsibility for his mistake.
Much ado about nothing.

Bill Smith
13-04-2022, 05:28 PM
He was and should have been a bit better prepared - but it lasted all of 5 minutes!
And he took sole responsibility for his mistake.
Much ado about nothing.

Hipkins task was to impart some good news. One would think that it would pass through his brain that he should brush up on some of the likely questions that might arise, be prepared so as not to distract from the good news.
But after the thousands of cockups/lies over the last 4 years he didn't even do that. So while you may say it is somewhat trivial it is symptomatic of how these clowns operate.

Joshuatree
13-04-2022, 07:59 PM
The truth is Hipkins has been the best servant to his country through covid that you could ask for.

Balance
13-04-2022, 08:34 PM
The truth is Hipkins has been the best servant to his country through covid that you could ask for.

Spread your legs?

moka
13-04-2022, 09:15 PM
Hipkins task was to impart some good news. One would think that it would pass through his brain that he should brush up on some of the likely questions that might arise, be prepared so as not to distract from the good news.
But after the thousands of cockups/lies over the last 4 years he didn't even do that. So while you may say it is somewhat trivial it is symptomatic of how these clowns operate.So much negativity in the comments on this thread. It was a small mistake which he corrected.
I think we should turn some of our attention to these people who constantly complain about the government, because while they say they want NZ to be more productive, innovative etc their comments do not reflect the attitude necessary to achieve that. Perhaps that is one reason why NZ is not going places – the attitude of some of those in business who could make it happen, but prefer to focus on the trivial.

Bill Smith
13-04-2022, 10:34 PM
So much negativity in the comments on this thread. It was a small mistake which he corrected.
I think we should turn some of our attention to these people who constantly complain about the government, because while they say they want NZ to be more productive, innovative etc their comments do not reflect the attitude necessary to achieve that. Perhaps that is one reason why NZ is not going places – the attitude of some of those in business who could make it happen, but prefer to focus on the trivial.

One would have to be a one eyed labour supporter to come up with more than one action of this government that was productive. innovative etc.

Joshuatree
13-04-2022, 10:41 PM
Bill you're totally Blind :cool:

Panda-NZ-
14-04-2022, 07:35 AM
One would have to be a one eyed labour supporter to come up with more than one action of this government that was productive. innovative etc.

Record low unemployment and the top notch corona response.

Joshuatree
14-04-2022, 09:00 AM
Spread your legs?

:t_up: Yes,that was a laugh the whole country enjoyed,some humour,some light relief.

Balance
14-04-2022, 09:46 AM
Policing by consent - results of Poto & Ardern woke & disastrous strategy for all to see.

I talked to a hospitality executive whose company has hotel units in Rotorua. He said that emergency housing is the only game in town for the tourism sector as tourists are staying clear of the crime ridden city.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/rotorua-street-bashings-shock-witnesses-who-say-gangs-involved-passersby-would-not-stop/6IIK2F32TS5NAGCECKASAG6DJI/

Balance
14-04-2022, 09:51 AM
Destroying the police force - why the criminals have an unrivalled ally in team Ardern & Poto.

Ardern for putting an incompetent & woke Poto (because she is female & non white) in charge and Poto for championing criminals rather than the police.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/kerre-woodham-mornings/opinion/kerre-woodham-put-the-police-minister-into-an-area-where-her-passion-and-her-experience-can-be-a-help-not-a-hindrance/

Balance
14-04-2022, 09:59 AM
The truth is Hipkins has been the best servant to his country through covid that you could ask for.

Is that why masks are not required in crowded bars, clubs & restaurants but still required in supermarkets & retail stores?

Hipkins tied himself in knots again this morning trying to fluff his way out of the contradiction.

All from the pulpit of truth of course.

kiora
14-04-2022, 10:43 AM
Anyone considering going to a bar should consider this?
"Face masks make people look more attractive, study finds"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/13/face-masks-make-people-look-more-attractive-study-finds

westerly
14-04-2022, 11:28 AM
Is that why masks are not required in crowded bars, clubs & restaurants but still required in supermarkets & retail stores?

Hipkins tied himself in knots again this morning trying to fluff his way out of the contradiction.

All from the pulpit of truth of course.

Pretty simple really . It is hard to eat and drink with a mask on nincompoop.

westerly

Blue Skies
14-04-2022, 12:29 PM
Is that why masks are not required in crowded bars, clubs & restaurants but still required in supermarkets & retail stores?

Hipkins tied himself in knots again this morning trying to fluff his way out of the contradiction.

All from the pulpit of truth of course.


There's a very simple & logical reason for this, immunocompromised people which may be around 20% of the population need to be able to shop safely for their basic needs e.g. food at supermarkets, & for clothes, heaters, bedding, tech, pharmacy etc at retail. Masks make these places much safer.
However, immunocompromised people can choose to avoid bars, clubs & restaurants where the risks with unmasked people is way higher. They don't need to go to bars & clubs if they feel the risk is too high.
Hope this helps.

Balance
14-04-2022, 12:41 PM
Pretty simple really . It is hard to eat and drink with a mask on nincompoop.

westerly

What has that got to do with spreading COVID in crowded venues?

Try harder.

Balance
14-04-2022, 01:02 PM
There's a very simple & logical reason for this, immunocompromised people which may be around 20% of the population need to be able to shop safely for their basic needs e.g. food at supermarkets, & for clothes, heaters, bedding, tech, pharmacy etc at retail. Masks make these places much safer.
However, immunocompromised people can choose to avoid bars, clubs & restaurants where the risks with unmasked people is way higher. They don't need to go to bars & clubs if they feel the risk is too high.
Hope this helps.

That makes sense, thanks.

It assumes of course that all the the 20% are rational and health conscious individuals who will avoid bars, clubs and restaurants - which we know they wouldn’t.

Just like Poto Williams and Ardern believe that criminals are going to embrace policing by consent - which they have not and in fact, taken the opportunity especially with the gangs to become bolder and bigger.

dobby41
14-04-2022, 01:15 PM
Spread your legs?

Simple minds fixate on simple things.

dobby41
14-04-2022, 01:16 PM
Hipkins task was to impart some good news. One would think that it would pass through his brain that he should brush up on some of the likely questions that might arise, be prepared so as not to distract from the good news.
But after the thousands of cockups/lies over the last 4 years he didn't even do that. So while you may say it is somewhat trivial it is symptomatic of how these clowns operate.

I gather you never make a mistake and own up to it immediately.
Not everyone is perfect.

dobby41
14-04-2022, 01:20 PM
Is that why masks are not required in crowded bars, clubs & restaurants but still required in supermarkets & retail stores?

Hipkins tied himself in knots again this morning trying to fluff his way out of the contradiction.

All from the pulpit of truth of course.

He answered Hoskings quite clearly.
For one, if you are immune-compromised you have a choice to not go to a bar or nightclub but supermarkets are a necessity.
You seem to be unable to think past your hatred.
Fortunately for NZ

Does not matter what I think.

Panda-NZ-
14-04-2022, 02:14 PM
It assumes of course that all the the 20% are rational and health conscious individuals who will avoid bars, clubs and restaurants - which we know they wouldn’t.


Would balance do the right thing?

It would be taxing on him and social responsibility has become one of his trigger words.

Bill Smith
14-04-2022, 05:00 PM
Breaking news!! (not really because we all have known for ages). Labour is a corrupt organisation. Stated as so in Parliament, so must be true.

Balance
14-04-2022, 06:29 PM
And Ardern & Labour government dropping like a stone in latest SME poll :

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/support-for-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-among-small-businesses-drops-15-points-as-national-s-christopher-luxon-soars.html

Support for Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern among small businesses has dropped 15 points as National leader Christopher Luxon soars.

The latest MYOB Business Monitor survey of small and medium enterprises (SMEs) shows 25 percent support for Ardern, down from 40 percent in September. Support for Luxon, the former CEO of Air New Zealand, is at 42 percent, followed by ACT leader David Seymour at 9 percent.

MYOB's Jo Tozer said the big drop in support for Ardern is reflected in the 60 percent dissatisfaction with the Government's performance over the last 12 months, including 35 percent who were very disappointed.

Balance
14-04-2022, 06:32 PM
Simple minds fixate on simple things.

You should not write such a thing of Hipkins - he is caught between ‘Spread your legs’ & ‘No mask needed in retail stores’.

Joshuatree
14-04-2022, 06:49 PM
Balance has your partner got a perfect derriere like you have?:t_up:

Balance
14-04-2022, 07:08 PM
Balance has your partner got a perfect derriere like you have?:t_up:

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1645995942210-EJQKXRINW56QNLJ81A0O/Chowder.jpg?format=500w

moka
14-04-2022, 09:32 PM
One would have to be a one eyed labour supporter to come up with more than one action of this government that was productive. innovative etc.It seems to me that being productive and innovative is the responsibility of businesses like Xero etc, not the government. Governments can provide support and incentives for more productivity and innovation in business, but at the end of the day is the decision of business whether it happens. If NZ was a communist country where the government owns and runs everything it would be the responsibility of the government but NZ is a capitalist country.

iceman
15-04-2022, 12:26 AM
It seems to me that being productive and innovative is the responsibility of businesses like Xero etc, not the government. Governments can provide support and incentives for more productivity and innovation in business, but at the end of the day is the decision of business whether it happens. If NZ was a communist country where the government owns and runs everything it would be the responsibility of the government but NZ is a capitalist country.

That sounds good moka. Sadly that is not possible when we have a control freak Government that is totally anti business and introduces policy after policy that seem to have no other goal than to make life more difficult for businesses, without any consultation whatsoever. The Government knows best, even if none of them (bar David Parker a long time ago) have ever been involved in running a business and have absolutely no idea.
It is astounding to see, even on this forum, that people still support the totally nonsensical so called traffic light system that has become so convoluted and confusing that even the Minister in charge can not explain it, let alone people understanding and following it. Meanwhile we just continue to squeeze out whatever little blood is left in the hospo and tourism industries and strangle all the primary industries due to next to no access to experienced foreign workers.
Then the Government thinks it's a great idea to open the border to Australia only, which will facilitate an exodus of young Kiwis heading over there for better pay, making our critical labour shortages even worse. Everything they do seem to have unintended consequences. Why not open up the border at the same time to quarrantine free entry from the Pacific Islands to allow some much needed and experienced workers into our industries ? Bloody nuts.

It is hard for a business owner or manager to focus on innovation when they do nothing other than fight fires just to keep the business going day by day. And please don't give me the utterly tiresome answer "we are in a pandemic". I've been working internationally throughout the pandemic and have been exposed to countries that have not taken the same ridiculous border measures as NZ and are already out of the pandemic with results not dissimilar to NZ health wise and much better business wise, where fore example the tourism industry was up to 70% of 2019 levels last year and forward bookings close to 2019 levels for this year. Meanwhile we stay shut for no logical reason, totally bereft of any ideas.

Or as Tony Alexander puts in his latest TView:
"On top of that, businesses are challenged by a government with little understanding or desire to understand the mindset and problems faced by
businesses even in “normal” times let along the challenging environment of today."

Panda-NZ-
15-04-2022, 05:27 AM
That sounds good moka. Sadly that is not possible when we have a control freak Government that is totally anti business and introduces policy after policy that seem to have no other goal than to make life more difficult for businesses, without any consultation whatsoever.

But the stock market has risen by 60% since Jacinda came in.

This govt is looking for wage rises and productivity.

Panda-NZ-
15-04-2022, 05:30 AM
Businesses have always been against labour even during Helen clark.

They often don't realise their employees are their customers (unless theyre a temporary migrant)

iceman
15-04-2022, 08:00 AM
But the stock market has risen by 60% since Jacinda came in.

This govt is looking for wage rises and productivity.

Yes funny that. Share prices and house prices have risen sharply with all the free money printed and poured into the economy, making the rich richer and the young even further away from their dreams.


Productivity is going nowhere in NZ (for a long time) and wage rises are not keeping up with inflation. So all cool and dandy in your little blinkered World.

Balance
15-04-2022, 08:30 AM
Ardern caught out spinning about the 1,800 extra police officers - she simply cannot help herself. Once a liar, always a liar.

And for once, Poto made sense! Imagine that!

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/the-reason-police-minister-poto-williams-new-cop-figures-differ-from-police-association-s.html

"In fairness to the minister, she's very consistent. When she talks numbers, she talks about the extra - 1400. She's clear it's the extra."

It's the Prime Minister's proclamation that the Government "promised and delivered" 1800 new police officers that causes confusion, Cahill said.

"It tends to be other ministers and often the Prime Minister that start talking about the 1800 new police. The minister doesn't normally go there. She understands it's extra."

couta1
15-04-2022, 09:42 AM
But the stock market has risen by 60% since Jacinda came in.

This govt is looking for wage rises and productivity. Had nothing to do with her, its all about the US, the NZX has been pretty sick for a while now if you hadn't noticed.

Panda-NZ-
15-04-2022, 09:44 AM
The FTSE and ASX can't even beat their pre-GFC number and there's been all that inflation.

NZX is one of the best stock markets in the world (not that the average kiwi benefits much).

couta1
15-04-2022, 09:49 AM
Pretty simple really . It is hard to eat and drink with a mask on nincompoop.

westerly Yet you were required to wear a mask upon entering/leaving a restaurant and if you got up to go to the toilet meanwhile punters could cough and laugh for hours without one, completely dumb rules.

Balance
15-04-2022, 10:00 AM
Trend is clear :

Labour under Spinner Ardern - 32%

National under Luxon - 38%

https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8942-nz-national-voting-intention-march-2022-202204080325

The Roy Morgan Government Confidence Rating dropped by 7.5pts in March 87.5 to hit its lowest level since Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern was elected in October 2017.

The latest ANZ-Roy Morgan Consumer Confidence Rating for New Zealand dropped 3.8pts to a new record low of 77.9 and is over 15% below the latest Consumer Confidence figure in Australia of 93.4 on March 28 – April 3, 2022 which has most recently been impacted by rising petrol prices across Australia.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1630978793084-UN9ZPRBUTARIZX30L2QA/chart.jpg?format=500w

Panda-NZ-
15-04-2022, 10:02 AM
Honeymoon poll more like?

Wages and welfare have increased by six percent since April combined with the feul tax cut (largely solving the cost of living issue).

Balance
15-04-2022, 10:10 AM
Honeymoon poll more like.

Wages plus welfare have increased by six percent since Aprand feul tax cut (solving the cost of living issue).

April Fools' 6% increases for the bottom dwellers - not even enough to offset the inflation for 2021, let along the horrendous cost of living inflation in 2022 so far.

But Ardern does not believe there is a cost of living crisis - she's too busy planning her overseas trips to get away from all the lies she spun in the last 4.5 years.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1638487493997-A6TTQYBAY1OK4CLE8NEB/Bribes.jpg?format=500w

Balance
15-04-2022, 10:18 AM
Ardern caught out spinning about the 1,800 extra police officers - she simply cannot help herself. Once a liar, always a liar.

And for once, Poto made sense! Imagine that!

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/the-reason-police-minister-poto-williams-new-cop-figures-differ-from-police-association-s.html

"In fairness to the minister, she's very consistent. When she talks numbers, she talks about the extra - 1400. She's clear it's the extra."

It's the Prime Minister's proclamation that the Government "promised and delivered" 1800 new police officers that causes confusion, Cahill said.

"It tends to be other ministers and often the Prime Minister that start talking about the 1800 new police. The minister doesn't normally go there. She understands it's extra."

Bringing to a city near you - CRIME & LAWLESSNESS

Poto Willams (appointed because she is female & a non-white - criminal rights are her priority)

Ardern (Exhibit 1 - Spinner)

Andrew Coster (Exhibit 2 - Woke Police Commisioner by Consent)

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/128353942/downtown-crime-police-chief-cant-say-when-auckland-cbd-will-be-safe-again

Downtown crime: Police chief can't say when Auckland CBD will be safe again

iceman
15-04-2022, 01:57 PM
Facing reality and moving on https://www.euronews.com/travel/2022/04/04/sweden-scraps-all-entry-rules-joining-restriction-free-european-countries

BDL
16-04-2022, 06:11 AM
Be kind, be woke, be stupid.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/13/new-zealand-allows-resident-to-be-extradited-to-china-in-landmark-ruling

Decision in case of murder suspect Kyung Yup Kim concludes government can trust Chinese assurances extradited defendants will not face torture

Panda-NZ-
16-04-2022, 04:40 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/128353591/whoever-wins-federal-election-australia-and-nz-will-draw-closer

NZ simply needs a new govt there to unfreeze relations.

winner69
18-04-2022, 08:59 AM
Clark outraged over our grocers makes no economic sense

Policies justified by scapegoating are bad policies

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/128382460/why-the-blame-placed-on-supermarkets-for-inflation-is-absolute-economic-nonsense

Bill Smith
18-04-2022, 11:05 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/128353591/whoever-wins-federal-election-australia-and-nz-will-draw-closer

NZ simply needs a new govt there to unfreeze relations.

You added an unnecessary word.
Surely you meant to write "NZ simply needs a new govt to unfreeze relations.
Just because English is not your 1st language, shouldn't excuse such blunders.

Panda-NZ-
18-04-2022, 02:13 PM
If I didn't write there, then you wouldn't know which country (nz? poland?.. or Aust)

moka
18-04-2022, 09:13 PM
I agree with John Tamihere that we are witnessing some of the nastiest things ever seen in our political landscape, and that's a fairly hefty call to make.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/john-tamihere-jacinda-ardern-and-clarke-gayford-why-trolls-are-fascinated-by-them/Y5GG2OTNVIB6ZNTLKXCEJVGOLM/
(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/john-tamihere-jacinda-ardern-and-clarke-gayford-why-trolls-are-fascinated-by-them/Y5GG2OTNVIB6ZNTLKXCEJVGOLM/)
“I am referring to the personal attacks on Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern.
What's going on is not just unbecoming, it's actually very ugly, horrible, and nasty, irrespective of whether you like her politics or not.
Thus, the type of negative behaviour currently aimed at Ardern is not about the policy, it is about her as a person.
Discuss the contest of ideas not the contest of personalities. Hold the Prime Minister to account, but quit the character assassinations.”

moka
18-04-2022, 09:51 PM
Paywalled article
Paula Bennet pays tribute to Louisa Wall.

“Louisa Wall has contributed to society in a way that not many will with her marriage equality bill.
Our politics haven't generally aligned but I always admired her conviction, dedication and bloody-mindedness to make a difference. For all that she has been through in the last couple of years, I hope it is her contribution to making us a fairer society that she is remembered for.”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/paula-bennett-on-public-holidays-wage-bills-transport-costs-that-are-breaking-the-business-leaders-who-help-others/WGPURBCT2Q2JRJR2VSUEDFFXYU/

iceman
19-04-2022, 07:49 AM
Paywalled article
Paula Bennet pays tribute to Louisa Wall.

“Louisa Wall has contributed to society in a way that not many will with her marriage equality bill.
Our politics haven't generally aligned but I always admired her conviction, dedication and bloody-mindedness to make a difference. For all that she has been through in the last couple of years, I hope it is her contribution to making us a fairer society that she is remembered for.”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/paula-bennett-on-public-holidays-wage-bills-transport-costs-that-are-breaking-the-business-leaders-who-help-others/WGPURBCT2Q2JRJR2VSUEDFFXYU/

Well said by Paula. I agree that Louisa Wall deserves a lot of credit for getting that bill through. Most MPs leave without achieving any such milestones.

iceman
19-04-2022, 07:51 AM
Paywalled article
Paula Bennet pays tribute to Louisa Wall.

“Louisa Wall has contributed to society in a way that not many will with her marriage equality bill.
Our politics haven't generally aligned but I always admired her conviction, dedication and bloody-mindedness to make a difference. For all that she has been through in the last couple of years, I hope it is her contribution to making us a fairer society that she is remembered for.”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/paula-bennett-on-public-holidays-wage-bills-transport-costs-that-are-breaking-the-business-leaders-who-help-others/WGPURBCT2Q2JRJR2VSUEDFFXYU/

I didn't think it was Tamihere's best opinion piece. A bit of nothing really. There is a LOT of criticism of Ardern about her polices, but the media is now making it sound like it's just personal. That is utter rubbish.

Bjauck
19-04-2022, 11:33 AM
Replied to an old post.

winner69
19-04-2022, 01:01 PM
Big entourage jetting around Asia on what can only be called a junket for most.

Bugger that Jason Walls forgot to pack his cuff links and to improvise

Balance
19-04-2022, 08:51 PM
Government advised to ditch MIQ in Nov 2021 but same government which consistently asserted that it heeds health advice ignored it.

So tens of thousands of NZers stuck overseas could not make it home for Christmas 2021.

Why?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/covid-19-government-was-advised-in-november-2021-there-was-no-longer-any-justification-for-miq.html

Because Ardern cannot & will not let go of the controls she has over NZers by fear mongering with COVID.

She has nothing else to show for 4 years of being in government except making crises into disasters and failures to deliver on the huge promises made to hoodwink NZers to vote her.

Balance
19-04-2022, 09:19 PM
Michael Wood to take over when Ardern gets kicked out next year - Chris Trotter’s pick.

https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/115387/if-next-round-polling-reveals-level-labour-support-beginning-%E2%80%9C2%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%93-what

The singular failure of the Sixth Labour Government to achieve any of its self-selected goals (apart from getting New Zealanders through the first few months of the Covid-19 pandemic) can only sharpen the perception, both in and out of Labour, that the New Zealand “Left” is in need of a damn good shake-up.

moka
19-04-2022, 09:35 PM
Well said by Paula. I agree that Louisa Wall deserves a lot of credit for getting that bill through. Most MPs leave without achieving any such milestones.Louisa Wall got her marriage equality bill through as a backbencher and not as a minister, which is a great achievement, so a very talented, hard-working and determined MP. Probably her determination worked against her because it appears she wasn't always willing to toe the party line.

moka
19-04-2022, 10:30 PM
Government advised to ditch MIQ in Nov 2021 but same government which consistently asserted that it heeds health advice ignored it.

So tens of thousands of NZers stuck overseas could not make it home for Christmas 2021.

Why?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/covid-19-government-was-advised-in-november-2021-there-was-no-longer-any-justification-for-miq.html

Because Ardern cannot & will not let go of the controls she has over NZers by fear mongering with COVID.

She has nothing else to show for 4 years of being in government except making crises into disasters and failures to deliver on the huge promises made to hoodwink NZers to vote her.As far as the government heeding health advice it depends whose advice, it seems to get advice from many sources.
Michael Baker tends to be cautious. Souxsie Wiles on 23/3/22 warned she was very nervous about the Government's plan to ease COVID-19 restrictions.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/03/i-am-disappointed-siouxsie-wiles-very-nervous-about-government-s-covid-19-decision.html
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/03/i-am-disappointed-siouxsie-wiles-very-nervous-about-government-s-covid-19-decision.html)
In November we were still in Delta, which arrived on 7 August 2021. Omicron didn’t arrive until 16 December 2021. I support the easing of MIQ restrictions as omicron took over, but if MIQ had been dropped suddenly in November with Delta I would have questioned it, and I am sure many others would have too. It would not have been consistent with lockdown restrictions etc. If you had a vote on it by the public to open the borders for Christmas, I would say most NZ would vote no because they wouldn’t want thousands of people coming in from overseas and spreading covid throughout the country.

Balance
19-04-2022, 10:58 PM
Big entourage jetting around Asia on what can only be called a junket for most.

Bugger that Jason Walls forgot to pack his cuff links and to improvise

Yes, Ardern ‘busy’ overseas telling the world NZ is open for business.

Meanwhile, when asked when cruise ships can come back to NZ again (as they have in Australia), the government via Robertson had no answer this morning. ‘Maybe summer’, he said.

Still clueless about how the real world operates out there.

The spin works only with the indoctrinated brain dead Labourites in NZ.

Balance
20-04-2022, 09:02 AM
Yes, Ardern ‘busy’ overseas telling the world NZ is open for business.

Meanwhile, when asked when cruise ships can come back to NZ again (as they have in Australia), the government via Robertson had no answer this morning. ‘Maybe summer’, he said.

Still clueless about how the real world operates out there.

The spin works only with the indoctrinated brain dead Labourites in NZ.

In the land of doers (Singapore where talk is cheap and government directives & projects get done on time and on budget or heads roll), it's no wonder the Spinner Ardern is getting little attention or traction :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/derek-cheng-jacinda-arderns-awkward-start-to-her-bang-for-buck-agenda-in-singapore/PDHHAXLKWVBG627BYSIAAIXOIQ/

paywalled

"It wasn't her fault, but Jacinda Ardern's self-proclaimed "bang for your buck" programme for Singapore and Japan got off to a fizzer of a start. Having established much pre-trip "open for business" fanfare, the Prime Minister was finally on overseas soil for the first time in years, and her first task was opening a breakfast panel on digital disruption and sustainability. She took the stage briefly, talking up the importance of rekindling New Zealand-Singapore relations after a pandemic-induced hiatus on foreign leaders' trips, and then sat down as the panel members discussed all things sustainable at length. The audience of business leaders seemed bored. This was all but confirmed when it came time for questions from the floor, a request which was met with excruciating silence."

"Ardern's subsequent announcement of expanding the number of such visas available to Singaporeans - from 200 to 300 - was hardly akin to rolling out the "New Zealand is open" red carpet. But it's not surprising, given that the previous maximum of 200 people had been more than sufficient to cater for Singaporean demand right up until just before the pandemic."

Balance
20-04-2022, 09:07 AM
As far as the government heeding health advice it depends whose advice, it seems to get advice from many sources.
Michael Baker tends to be cautious. Souxsie Wiles on 23/3/22 warned she was very nervous about the Government's plan to ease COVID-19 restrictions.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/03/i-am-disappointed-siouxsie-wiles-very-nervous-about-government-s-covid-19-decision.html
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/03/i-am-disappointed-siouxsie-wiles-very-nervous-about-government-s-covid-19-decision.html)
In November we were still in Delta, which arrived on 7 August 2021. Omicron didn’t arrive until 16 December 2021. I support the easing of MIQ restrictions as omicron took over, but if MIQ had been dropped suddenly in November with Delta I would have questioned it, and I am sure many others would have too. It would not have been consistent with lockdown restrictions etc. If you had a vote on it by the public to open the borders for Christmas, I would say most NZ would vote no because they wouldn’t want thousands of people coming in from overseas and spreading covid throughout the country.

Just in case you are capable of independent & non-indoctrinated thoughts, moka - here's what is at stake :

An internal memo from the Ministry of Health has revealed there was no longer "any" health justification for MIQ way back in November 2021.

It means stranded Kiwis could have come home for Christmas instead of applying for a spot in state-run managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ).

Why has this only come out now? The short answer is the Ministry of Health didn't want this advice out in public. They tried to keep it secret, refusing to release it until their hand was forced by the Ombudsman.

And further more, to add insult to injury, here's how the MIQ system has been described by its creators : A lolly scramble.

Making fun of the misery inflicted on tens of thousands of NZers stranded overseas.


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/03/documents-show-miq-lottery-creators-using-lollies-at-a-party-to-describe-kiwis-trying-to-get-home.html

Balance
20-04-2022, 11:22 AM
Just in case you are capable of independent & non-indoctrinated thoughts, moka - here's what is at stake :

An internal memo from the Ministry of Health has revealed there was no longer "any" health justification for MIQ way back in November 2021.

It means stranded Kiwis could have come home for Christmas instead of applying for a spot in state-run managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ).

Why has this only come out now? The short answer is the Ministry of Health didn't want this advice out in public. They tried to keep it secret, refusing to release it until their hand was forced by the Ombudsman.

And further more, to add insult to injury, here's how the MIQ system has been described by its creators : A lolly scramble.

Making fun of the misery inflicted on tens of thousands of NZers stranded overseas.


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/03/documents-show-miq-lottery-creators-using-lollies-at-a-party-to-describe-kiwis-trying-to-get-home.html

This comment on the radio as I drove to a meeting this morning sums up the view of many these days when it comes to how Ardern & the government have performed in the last 2 years :

"Ardern managed the initial response to the pandemic very well with the lockdowns but there have been far too many missteps and mishaps post the initial response to give them any more credit than that.

It is clear that they have milked the pandemic for everything they can get away with and the reality with the MIQ situation is that they would have continued with it & the lockdowns but for the polls.

Notice how they are quick to blame others when things go wrong but are even quicker to take credit when it's the reverse?"

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfm-29lgcg2z1lPVF2mvcBcwTltg4GdNsi0g&usqp=CAU

Balance
20-04-2022, 05:12 PM
Another month, another poll showing how far Ardern & her team of nincompoops have been uncovered for the spinners and incompetent government they really are:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-takes-lead-in-latest-poll-but-could-not-govern-without-te-pati-maori/E4ZTMN6OF4JY7LESEPBADMSROA/

So Labour’s support has dropped by 27% since Election Day 2020 while National has climbed by 48%.

Roll on 2023!

Blue Skies
20-04-2022, 08:23 PM
Worth drilling down a bit into latest controversy.

At the time, National's Covid spokesperson Chris Bishop agreed with the govt's delay in reopening prior to Christmas & said the govt 'had made the right call on boosters' & that the delay in reopening was 'necessary'.

National completely agreed with the govt's decision at the time, & with the benefit of hindsight, we now know the new highly infectious Omicron variant arrived late Nov, making 'expert advice' previously given earlier in Nov irrelevant, and it was the right call in terms of protecting the health system & general population who were complacent about getting boosted.

As we've seen many times, MoH is not the most agile organisation & processes & official advice moves pretty damm slowly & with the fast changing situations where todays advice can become irrelevant tomorrow, best not to exclusively depend on, esp when other experts differ.

Anyway, as National's Chris Bishop said, looking back at the outcome now, we can see the govt actually made the right call on this.

Incidentally, since the restrictions have lifted, I'm seeing so many cases around me, people who have avoided covid for last couple of years, all sick now & off work which is not good for productivity. Suddenly Omicron's everywhere. At least they're not in hospital, all boosted. I suspect many not reporting their positive results.

Balance
20-04-2022, 09:08 PM
Whether it was the right or wrong decision to not accept MOH’s recommendation is open to debate.

What is not open to debate is that Ardern & Hipkins went out of their way to hide that recommendation and information from the public.

It took the intervention of the ombudsman to get that information released to the public.

And Ardern promised the most transparent and accountable government ever - savvy?

Balance
20-04-2022, 09:25 PM
And let’s not forget that a DJ with the right connections was able to get into NZ 3 times while pregnant women & family members desperate to see dying relatives were not able to secure entry back into NZ.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/465597/miq-assessment-adds-insult-to-injury-for-women-forced-to-give-birth-abroad

Suspect that whoever is leaking the information about MIQ events to the media has plenty more to release over the next year or so.

Ardern & her team of nincompoops have been trying to wrap up ‘fire with paper’ so to speak. They are learning that is a futile exercise in deceit.

couta1
20-04-2022, 09:43 PM
Another month, another poll showing how far Ardern & her team of nincompoops have been uncovered for the spinners and incompetent government they really are:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-takes-lead-in-latest-poll-but-could-not-govern-without-te-pati-maori/E4ZTMN6OF4JY7LESEPBADMSROA/

So Labour’s support has dropped by 27% since Election Day 2020 while National has climbed by 48%.

Roll on 2013! I think you mean 2023. Imagine if the Maori party are the kingmakers and go with Labour instead of National, you think things are bad now.

moka
20-04-2022, 09:50 PM
I did wonder exactly what the controversial MOH memo said, and in this article it says Bloomfield and McElnay did not propose an immediate halt to MIQ but rather a transition. So the news articles have been one-sided and omitted relevant facts. So much for balanced reporting.

A copy of the memo can be read on Twitter. https://twitter.com/drdeanknight/status/1516496000285765634

https://thestandard.org.nz/rnzs-weird-take-on-miq/
Did the Government delay changes to the MIQ system way beyond what was reasonable? The timeline is all important. The advice was signed off on November 15, 2021. Dr Dean Knight has helpfully provided a copy of the memo in this tweet.
On November 24, 2021 the Government announced (https://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2021-12/Hipkins%20DG%20Press%20Conference%2024%20November% 202021.pdf) a transition away from MIQ.

Balance
20-04-2022, 09:55 PM
Whether it was the right or wrong decision to not accept MOH’s recommendation is open to debate.

What is not open to debate is that Ardern & Hipkins went out of their way to hide that recommendation and information from the public.

It took the intervention of the ombudsman to get that information released to the public.

And Ardern promised the most transparent and accountable government ever - savvy?

In reply to moka - as above.

moka
20-04-2022, 10:02 PM
Whether it was the right or wrong decision to not accept MOH’s recommendation is open to debate.

What is not open to debate is that Ardern & Hipkins went out of their way to hide that recommendation and information from the public.

It took the intervention of the ombudsman to get that information released to the public.

And Ardern promised the most transparent and accountable government ever - savvy?The information was requested from the MOH and it was their decision to withhold the information, not that of Ardern and Hipkins.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/covid-19-chris-hipkins-can-t-say-if-his-office-knew-miq-memo-from-ministry-of-health-was-being-withheld.html
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/covid-19-chris-hipkins-can-t-say-if-his-office-knew-miq-memo-from-ministry-of-health-was-being-withheld.html)
“Hipkins said the Ministry of Health would have to answer why the memo wasn't released.
"It was their document, not mine... I don't think there was any great conspiracy to keep the information private there."
"As I indicated, the advice that actually came to the Government came a week later [after the memo] and we released the decisions on that the day after we got the advice," he told AM (https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/the-am-show.html) on Wednesday.”

Balance
20-04-2022, 10:13 PM
The information was requested from the MOH and it was their decision to withhold the information, not that of Ardern and Hipkins.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/covid-19-chris-hipkins-can-t-say-if-his-office-knew-miq-memo-from-ministry-of-health-was-being-withheld.html
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/covid-19-chris-hipkins-can-t-say-if-his-office-knew-miq-memo-from-ministry-of-health-was-being-withheld.html)
“Hipkins said the Ministry of Health would have to answer why the memo wasn't released.
"It was their document, not mine... I don't think there was any great conspiracy to keep the information private there."
"As I indicated, the advice that actually came to the Government came a week later [after the memo] and we released the decisions on that the day after we got the advice," he told AM (https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/the-am-show.html) on Wednesday.”

Watch the interview of Hipkins this morning and decide for yourself whether he is lying, spinning or telling the truth.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/covid-19-chris-hipkins-can-t-say-if-his-office-knew-miq-memo-from-ministry-of-health-was-being-withheld.html

moka
20-04-2022, 10:34 PM
Another article about MIQ favouring sensationalism (lottery of human misery, a lolly scramble) over factual reporting.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/03/documents-show-miq-lottery-creators-using-lollies-at-a-party-to-describe-kiwis-trying-to-get-home.html
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/03/documents-show-miq-lottery-creators-using-lollies-at-a-party-to-describe-kiwis-trying-to-get-home.html)
“Before landing on the lottery as their chosen system, internal briefings obtained by Newshub show officials tried to develop a waitlist or automated booking system but found it would cost several million dollars and take several months and "the most difficult part" was "creating clear rules... to determine who is eligible".

COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said on Tuesday there was no easy route.
"Whichever system we went with there was still more demand than there were rooms available so there was always going to be people who missed out."

But if Hipkins had his time again, "I think we'd probably have more of an emphasis on the emergency allocations, the compassionate allocations."

The details in the documents show just how complicated MIQ was to manage. The system had to juggle cohorting, random flight schedules, and desperate competing reasons to return,
"An external supplier assessed a range of options... and used a lolly analogy to simply explain the complexities.”

iceman
20-04-2022, 11:06 PM
Another article about MIQ favouring sensationalism (lottery of human misery, a lolly scramble) over factual reporting.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/03/documents-show-miq-lottery-creators-using-lollies-at-a-party-to-describe-kiwis-trying-to-get-home.html
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/03/documents-show-miq-lottery-creators-using-lollies-at-a-party-to-describe-kiwis-trying-to-get-home.html)
“Before landing on the lottery as their chosen system, internal briefings obtained by Newshub show officials tried to develop a waitlist or automated booking system but found it would cost several million dollars and take several months and "the most difficult part" was "creating clear rules... to determine who is eligible".

COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said on Tuesday there was no easy route.
"Whichever system we went with there was still more demand than there were rooms available so there was always going to be people who missed out."

But if Hipkins had his time again, "I think we'd probably have more of an emphasis on the emergency allocations, the compassionate allocations."

The details in the documents show just how complicated MIQ was to manage. The system had to juggle cohorting, random flight schedules, and desperate competing reasons to return,
"An external supplier assessed a range of options... and used a lolly analogy to simply explain the complexities.”

I don't know why anyone thought it was a good idea to get Government bureaucrats to design such a wide ranging system. That's where the mistake was originally made and it turned into a full blown disaster on every front.

Balance
21-04-2022, 10:09 AM
I don't know why anyone thought it was a good idea to get Government bureaucrats to design such a wide ranging system. That's where the mistake was originally made and it turned into a full blown disaster on every front.

Yup - a system where a foreign DJ can get into NZ 3 times but a pregnant NZer cannot get back to give birth at home.

Balance
21-04-2022, 10:22 AM
Transparent & accountable - that was the huge promise made by Ardern to get elected.

Well, history will record that her administration is the least transparent and most obstructive (to the truth) government NZ has ever had.

Here's Sir Ian Taylor's (a self confessed previous admirer of Ardern) summation of just how bad Ardern is:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/sir-ian-taylor-after-all-thats-happened-wheres-the-transparency-labour/43WMH6RORCZXIRKGX5AFDYW2QQ/

Excerpts (paywalled article) :

"On October 17, 2020, I had no doubt that I had done the right thing when I cast my vote for Jacinda Ardern and the Labour party. I also believed that this Government would live up its promise that it would be the most transparent government we had ever had."

"It appeared, at least from the outside, that the Government had not taken any advantage of the extraordinary opportunity we had created with our united approach to the first lockdown.

The level 4 lockdown that was imposed on the country, within 12 hours of the latest community case being identified, was exactly the same as the lockdown we had navigated as the team of five million a year and a half earlier. It was as though we had learned nothing from the initial sacrifices we had all willingly made back then."

"I realised that there had been a cost for that landslide victory back in 2020. The promise of transparency had gone. I should have seen it earlier.

The decision to shut down the multi-party advisory group that could ask questions around decisions being made by Cabinet.

The failure to take advice from the Independent Advisory Group headed by Sir Brian Roche to set up a stand-alone agency to take over from the Ministry of Health to manage our response to the pandemic.

And, arguably the most subtle shift of them all, the power handed to unelected officials in the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (DPMC) to manage all the messaging coming out of the Government. A role which also appears to include the blocking of information being sought by those looking for answers."

BDL
23-04-2022, 06:40 AM
Ardern is willing to send this New Zealand resident to his death.....

"Be kind"


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/04/politicians-pen-letter-urging-jacinda-ardern-to-stop-accused-murderer-kyung-yup-kim-s-extradition-to-china.html

fungus pudding
23-04-2022, 08:08 AM
Ardern is willing to send this New Zealand resident to his death.....

"Be kind"


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/04/politicians-pen-letter-urging-jacinda-ardern-to-stop-accused-murderer-kyung-yup-kim-s-extradition-to-china.html



Has anyone bothered asking Yup Kim what he wants?

dobby41
23-04-2022, 01:51 PM
Ardern is willing to send this New Zealand resident to his death.....

"Be kind"


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/04/politicians-pen-letter-urging-jacinda-ardern-to-stop-accused-murderer-kyung-yup-kim-s-extradition-to-china.html

You seem to have decided what the outcome is.
At the moment she isn't sending anyone anywhere.

dobby41
23-04-2022, 01:52 PM
Has anyone bothered asking Yup Kim what he wants?

Since he's fighting his extradition I think we can assume what he wants - can't we?

fungus pudding
23-04-2022, 03:28 PM
Since he's fighting his extradition I think we can assume what he wants - can't we?

You might. I wouldn't. We are told about 'govts. around the world', and his lawyers crusade, but that may not be what he wants.

Balance
23-04-2022, 03:51 PM
Ardern is willing to send this New Zealand resident to his death.....

"Be kind"


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/04/politicians-pen-letter-urging-jacinda-ardern-to-stop-accused-murderer-kyung-yup-kim-s-extradition-to-china.html

Now, now - she has been kind indeed when she wants to.

Like the DJ (mate of Gayford) who entered NZ 3 times but pregnant women could not.

Then, there's the generous funding of gangs like the $3m to the Mongrel Mob so they learn how to peddle drugs more effectively.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1646594748412-T3UQTIGVD5TOS3N1H9JC/promises.jpg?format=500w

dobby41
23-04-2022, 04:04 PM
Now, now - she has been kind indeed when she wants to.

Typical of you to assume an outcome that hasn't happened yet.

Balance
23-04-2022, 04:27 PM
Typical of you to assume an outcome that hasn't happened yet.

Not hard to figure Ardern & her kind(ness) out, dobby41.

She is so kind that she allows gangs & criminals to create havoc & terrorise law abiding tenants and citizens at state housing estates since she took office.

So kind she generously offers to relocate the terrorised law abiding citizens rather than take action against the gangs and criminals.

So kind too she gave Māoris $120m to fix maraes & create 3,000 jobs. 150 jobs were created the last time there was a count!

Generous to allocate $200m+ so that Maoris & Islanders get $150 each to get vaccinated.

Generously gave $2.7m to the Mongrel Mob so they learn how to peddle drugs more effectively.

But this must be stated for the record - not generous enough to give Plunket $500,000 to keep services going.

Would you like more examples?

Panda-NZ-
23-04-2022, 04:34 PM
Would you like more examples?

The alternative is to do 0 for all of these then take away a public holiday.

Balance
23-04-2022, 04:35 PM
The alternative is to do 0 for all of these then take away a public holiday.

Yup - and we will see NZers support Luxon in making that call.

I have confidence in NZers making the right choice, choosing a leader who makes tough decisions as opposed to Ardern promising big but delivering nothing but costs and more costs to future generations.

To be expected from a PM whose sum total of commercial experience is being a shop assistant in a fish & chips ice cream store.

Bring on 2023!

Panda-NZ-
23-04-2022, 04:49 PM
Yup - and we will see NZers support Luxon in making that call.


who? I don't know who that is, say most NZers.

Balance
23-04-2022, 04:56 PM
who? I don't know who that is, say most NZers.

LOL!

Is that why the National Party under Luxon is now blowing Ardern’s Labour out of the water in the polls?

And he has only been leader for less than 6 months.

Bring on 2023!

The doer vs the spinner.

Balance
23-04-2022, 05:01 PM
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1646926890618-QODOBJJ31EJJSQ1CG9TT/Duo.jpg?format=500w

Panda-NZ-
23-04-2022, 05:18 PM
Is that why the National Party under Luxon is now blowing Ardern’s Labour out of the water in the polls?


A propped up straw figure could achieve that. It was before the 1 Apr pay rise and petrol tax cut.

Far exceeding the 50c/week offered by an out of touch collection of individuals.

Balance
23-04-2022, 05:22 PM
A propped up straw figure could achieve that. It was before the 1 Apr pay rise and petrol tax cut.

Far exceeding the 50c/week offered by an out of touch collection of individuals.

LOL.

Writes the zoo animal - caged and fed well with spin & BS.

Panda-NZ-
23-04-2022, 05:26 PM
50/week for the median earner as a tax cut.

Take away one public holiday.

These are verified opposition policies not spin.

Balance
23-04-2022, 05:32 PM
Not hard to figure Ardern & her kind(ness) out, dobby41.

She is so kind that she allows gangs & criminals to create havoc & terrorise law abiding tenants and citizens at state housing estates since she took office.

So kind she generously offers to relocate the terrorised law abiding citizens rather than take action against the gangs and criminals.

So kind too she gave Māoris $120m to fix maraes & create 3,000 jobs. 150 jobs were created the last time there was a count!

Generous to allocate $200m+ so that Maoris & Islanders get $150 each to get vaccinated.

Generously gave $2.7m to the Mongrel Mob so they learn how to peddle drugs more effectively.

But this must be stated for the record - not generous enough to give Plunket $500,000 to keep services going.

Would you like more examples?

And this needs to be mentioned of course - Ardern taking 'Be Kind' to a new level by reneging on her promise to be the most transparent and accountable government ever.

Because she wants to spare NZers the truth - her saintly motherly nature means that she prefers to tell half-truths and uses spin & deflections instead.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1630552397345-KOXK2FEJEUPVGJEFYBTZ/shortage.jpg?format=500w

Balance
23-04-2022, 05:40 PM
And this will go down as the biggest legacy of Ardern in government - COMPLETELY FAILING to deliver on affordable & more housing, in effect DESTROYING the future for young NZers.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jack-tame-why-on-earth-should-young-kiwis-choose-to-come-home/QGGSH2RGLCBR5TZZ7UFSRYOYNQ/



https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1619975923177-HQPNRC8TEX5MH07H6C4Z/Rodeo%281%29.jpg?format=500w

Balance
23-04-2022, 06:14 PM
On TV1 tonight, number on housing waiting list in Northland has increased by 600% (yes, 600%) since 2017 when Ardern took office - from 234 to over 1500.

Turning crises into disasters - modus operandi of Ardern the Spinner. Breeding beneficiaries & bottom dwellers.

Be interesting to find out how many gang members& criminals she has housed as a priority however.

stoploss
23-04-2022, 06:20 PM
On TV1 tonight, number on housing waiting list in Northland has increased by 600% (yes, 600%) since 2017 when Ardern took office - from 234 to over 1500.

Turning crises into disasters - modus operandi of Ardern the Spinner. Breeding beneficiaries & bottom dwellers.

Be interesting to find out how many gang members& criminals she has housed as a priority however.
Gee I remember when National Govt was in and there were 8000 people on the social housing wait list . Apparently it was a crisis , 32,000 now …..Maybe if they had delivered on Kiwibuild it wouldn’t be so bad .

moka
23-04-2022, 09:30 PM
Yup - and we will see NZers support Luxon in making that call.

I have confidence in NZers making the right choice, choosing a leader who makes tough decisions as opposed to Ardern promising big but delivering nothing but costs and more costs to future generations.

To be expected from a PM whose sum total of commercial experience is being a shop assistant in a fish & chips ice cream store.

Bring on 2023!I consider political experience to be more relevant than commercial experience if you are a politician.
Ardern focused on learning how to be a leader and a politician, which was what interested her. She joined the Labour Party at age 17, then went to University - Bachelor of Communications Studies in International Relations and Professional Communication, worked in offices of Phil Goff and Helen Clark, and in Britain’s Cabinet and Home offices, then president of the International Union of Socialist Youth (IUSY), a position that took her to destinations such as Algeria, China, India, Israel, Jordan, and Lebanon. It all seems very good preparation to be an effective political leader.

moka
23-04-2022, 09:54 PM
Gee I remember when National Govt was in and there were 8000 people on the social housing wait list . Apparently it was a crisis , 32,000 now …..Maybe if they had delivered on Kiwibuild it wouldn’t be so bad .The increasing housing wait list shows the failure or absurdity of neoliberalism and the expectation that the free market will provide superior products that address consumers’ needs, because the “market” has clearly not provided affordable low cost housing. We are told a free market economic system helps sellers to create affordable prices for everyone, but it certainly hasn’t happened with housing. So it seems we do need more government regulation and intervention, not less.

BDL
23-04-2022, 11:56 PM
Ardern is fine about sending a New Zealand resident to China to be executed.....

Yea, "be kind", great leadership......

stoploss
24-04-2022, 01:04 AM
The increasing housing wait list shows the failure or absurdity of neoliberalism and the expectation that the free market will provide superior products that address consumers’ needs, because the “market” has clearly not provided affordable low cost housing. We are told a free market economic system helps sellers to create affordable prices for everyone, but it certainly hasn’t happened with housing. So it seems we do need more government regulation and intervention, not less.
My point was Kiwibuild a Government initiative was meant to produce around 40,000 houses by now and I think it’s less than 2000 currently ( hard to find an accurate figure ) so it’s not a free market failure the socialist Govt has absolutely failed to deliver .

Panda-NZ-
24-04-2022, 04:17 AM
My point was Kiwibuild a Government initiative was meant to produce around 40,000 houses by now and I think it’s less than 2000 currently ( hard to find an accurate figure ) so it’s not a free market failure the socialist Govt has absolutely failed to deliver .

What about all the price rises lately? all delivered by private enterprise.

fungus pudding
24-04-2022, 10:39 AM
The increasing housing wait list shows the failure or absurdity of neoliberalism and the expectation that the free market will provide superior products that address consumers’ needs, because the “market” has clearly not provided affordable low cost housing. We are told a free market economic system helps sellers to create affordable prices for everyone, but it certainly hasn’t happened with housing. So it seems we do need more government regulation and intervention, not less.

A 'free market' cannot exist when constrained and controlled by planning laws.

Bjauck
24-04-2022, 10:59 AM
A 'free market' cannot exist when constrained and controlled by planning laws. You're right. A totally free market would have no standards and regulations. With housing, this would mean hovels and rookeries for the poorest and the development of land and natural resources as the owner thinks fit for the richest. With the economy in general, it would be 100% Caveat Emptor. The bonfire of legislation would certainly reduce the burden on the legal system.

fungus pudding
24-04-2022, 11:18 AM
You're right. A totally free market would have no standards and regulations. With housing, this would mean hovels and rookeries for the poorest and the development of land and natural resources as the owner thinks fit for the richest. With the economy in general, it would be 100% Caveat Emptor. The bonfire of legislation would certainly reduce the burden on the legal system.

Of course few would doubt controls are necessary but it does take it away from being 'a free market'.]

Balance
24-04-2022, 11:22 AM
My point was Kiwibuild a Government initiative was meant to produce around 40,000 houses by now and I think it’s less than 2000 currently ( hard to find an accurate figure ) so it’s not a free market failure the socialist Govt has absolutely failed to deliver .

This government has intervened in the housing market in every which way possible and has only made the housing crisis into a disaster.

Reason? Its solution to any problem is to throw money and bureaucracy at it - as if that's how the real world works! No accountability, no transparency, no plan and no idea!

If NZ is serious about tackling housing affordability, look at Singapore's Housing Development Board and set up an equivalent with a 25 year horizon.

Too busy playing politics than implementing solutions - that's Ardern the Spinner.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1638487493997-A6TTQYBAY1OK4CLE8NEB/Bribes.jpg?format=500w

Getty
24-04-2022, 11:46 AM
I consider political experience to be more relevant than commercial experience if you are a politician.
Ardern focused on learning how to be a leader and a politician, which was what interested her. She joined the Labour Party at age 17, then went to University - Bachelor of Communications Studies in International Relations and Professional Communication, worked in offices of Phil Goff and Helen Clark, and in Britain’s Cabinet and Home offices, then president of the International Union of Socialist Youth (IUSY), a position that took her to destinations such as Algeria, China, India, Israel, Jordan, and Lebanon. It all seems very good preparation to be an effective political leader.

So, in other words, the CV of one who learnt how to brainwash the brainless.

Balance
24-04-2022, 11:49 AM
"Be kind" she said.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/govt-poorly-supported-disabled-people-in-omicron-outbreak-inquiry-finds/OWTGNHLY27PTNUKKDC6WTSMOSA/

The New Zealand Disability Support Network says disabled people were forgotten about in the Covid-19 response after a Human Rights Commission inquiry found their wellbeing was put at risk.

Disability Rights Commissioner Paula Tesoriero launched the inquiry on March 11 into the support of disabled people during the Omicron outbreak using the commission's powers under the Human Rights Act 1993.

The urgent inquiry found responses to the spread of Omicron caused considerable stress and confusion for disabled people.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1630552397345-KOXK2FEJEUPVGJEFYBTZ/shortage.jpg?format=500w

westerly
24-04-2022, 12:22 PM
Ardern is willing to send this New Zealand resident to his death.....

"Be kind"


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/04/politicians-pen-letter-urging-jacinda-ardern-to-stop-accused-murderer-kyung-yup-kim-s-extradition-to-china.html

THe Supreme Court not the PM is sending an accused murderer to China. You would like the PM to overide the Courts?
Sounds more like what they do in China. If he is guilty do we want him in NZ?

westerly

couta1
24-04-2022, 12:54 PM
Ardern is fine about sending a New Zealand resident to China to be executed.....

Yea, "be kind", great leadership...... Yet seemingly happy to keep the ultimate piece of pond scum Brendan Tarrant here costing taxpayers millions of dollars in legal fees while he laughs and plays games with QC lawyers. Cops were a pretty lousy aim, he should have been taken out, they seem quite happy to take out others for far lesser crimes.

dobby41
24-04-2022, 01:39 PM
Ardern is fine about sending a New Zealand resident to China to be executed.....

Yea, "be kind", great leadership......

Has the decision been made?
I thought that the Supreme Court had cleared the way but the final determination hadn't been made?
Is this you creating your own spin?

BDL
24-04-2022, 04:49 PM
THe Supreme Court not the PM is sending an accused murderer to China. You would like the PM to overide the Courts?
Sounds more like what they do in China. If he is guilty do we want him in NZ?

westerly

Na, Westerly, send him to China so they can execute him, we don't want him here....... Be kind brother.....Ardern supporter.

BDL
24-04-2022, 04:54 PM
No Dobby41, not spin at all. Ardern said she was fine with whatever is decided. She will keep out of it, yet 14 other countries have written to her asking not to let this happen.

Mrs "be kind" doesn't mind an execution?

dobby41
24-04-2022, 04:57 PM
No Dobby41, not spin at all. Ardern said she was fine with whatever is decided. She will keep out of it, yet 14 other countries have written to her asking not to let this happen.

Mrs "be kind" doesn't mind an execution?

So she should be doing the immigration minister's job?

You also make a leap or 2 in your argument but whatever!

BDL
24-04-2022, 06:25 PM
So she should be doing the immigration minister's job?

You also make a leap or 2 in your argument but whatever!

No, she should be doing her job, LEADER for all!

And not a leap or 2, as you assure. We all know China is, how do I say this? Not very trustworthy, and a bit of a dictatorship...

Like I say, we all know this, hence, the 14 countries concerns, but apparently not Labour supporters, or Ardern.

Just a little execution, eh dobby? "Be kind" brother.....

BDL
24-04-2022, 06:28 PM
Ardern and her "be kind" supporters are racist, unkind frauds.

westerly
24-04-2022, 08:37 PM
Ardern and her "be kind" supporters are racist, unkind frauds.

You miss the point. The PM cannot overturn the Courts decision. How is that racist. ?

westerly

Panda-NZ-
25-04-2022, 01:33 AM
No, she should be doing her job, LEADER for all!

And not a leap or 2, as you assure. We all know China is, how do I say this? Not very trustworthy, and a bit of a dictatorship...

Like I say, we all know this, hence, the 14 countries concerns, but apparently not Labour supporters, or Ardern.

Just a little execution, eh dobby? "Be kind" brother.....

NZ isn't responsible for the soloman islands disaster, or ignoring compromised people like gladys liu.

There are good arguments on both sides for this one (though having one less murderer would be nice).

BDL
25-04-2022, 06:02 AM
You miss the point. The PM cannot overturn the Courts decision. How is that racist. ?

westerly

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300570919/dangerous-precedent-kris-faafoi-faces-pressure-from-european-australian-politicians-to-stop-extradition

Read the article, Kris Faafoi (which his boss is Ardern),has the say if it will go ahead.

Labour are fine with murder's being murdered but give millions of $ to gangs here in NZ to terrorise and murder..... (figure that BS out)

"Be Kind" Ardern will send a man to his death to appease China.

BDL
25-04-2022, 06:06 AM
This decision is morally wrong and shouldn't even need thinking about.

Ardern is fine with whatever happens because she is scared of China. (or that she really doesn't care, which is a worry)

She is a fake and very "unkind" And a poor leader.

davflaws
25-04-2022, 07:49 AM
Labour are fine with murder's being murdered but give millions of $ to gangs here in NZ to terrorise and murder..... (figure that BS out)


You are quite right (for a change) - your claim is bull****.

Balance
25-04-2022, 08:29 AM
https://forms.justice.govt.nz/search/Documents/pdf/jdo/e5/alfresco/service/api/node/content/workspace/SpacesStore/83431f55-04a8-490d-a5c5-9f4eeea12977/83431f55-04a8-490d-a5c5-9f4eeea12977.pdf

Facts of the case - worth reading.

BDL
25-04-2022, 08:48 AM
https://forms.justice.govt.nz/search/Documents/pdf/jdo/e5/alfresco/service/api/node/content/workspace/SpacesStore/83431f55-04a8-490d-a5c5-9f4eeea12977/83431f55-04a8-490d-a5c5-9f4eeea12977.pdf

Facts of the case - worth reading.

Skimmed through that as best I could, very long.

The question I think is, can you trust the CCP? Past history would say no.....

BDL
25-04-2022, 08:53 AM
You are quite right (for a change) - your claim is bull****.

Not BS at all. CCP / China cannot be trusted - Fact

NZ gangs (mainly Maori, another fact), are violent, dangerous and murder people. Fact

Another fact - davflaws is a shameless Labour / Ardern supporter, who cannot see past that......

davflaws
25-04-2022, 09:33 AM
Not BS at all.

NZ gangs (mainly Maori, another fact), are violent, dangerous and murder people. Fact

Another fact - davflaws is a shameless Labour / Ardern supporter, who cannot see past that......

I actually vote Green - but what you claimed was


Labour .................. give millions of $ to gangs here in NZ to terrorise and murder...

And that is bull****.

Balance
25-04-2022, 09:42 AM
Skimmed through that as best I could, very long.

The question I think is, can you trust the CCP? Past history would say no.....

There’s a very well known case (amongst Auckland police personnel) of a very wealthy Chinese property owner who had NZ permanent residence.

He was charged with drug trafficking in China but refused to face trial over there and was convicted in China in absentia.

NZ refused China’s extradition request so he was able to avoid sentencing.

He made a dumb mistake however of taking a holiday in a Pacific Island which has an extradition treaty with China. On arrival in said country, he was arrested at the airport and extradited to China.

His family here had to pay for his body to be sent back here for burial a few months later.

A few lessons to be learnt for NZ.

Balance
25-04-2022, 09:44 AM
I actually vote Green - but what you claimed was


And that is bull****.

It’s a fact that this government gives millions of dollars to gangs whose purpose in existence is to terrorise, intimidate and commit crimes.

Panda-NZ-
25-04-2022, 10:15 AM
It’s a fact that this government gives millions of dollars to gangs whose purpose in existence is to terrorise, intimidate and commit crimes.

Is National for or against cannibas decriminalization (therefore taking away their income stream)?

fungus pudding
25-04-2022, 10:33 AM
Policies have no foundation in fact - says Otago University economist.

https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/policies-have-no-foundation-facts

Balance
25-04-2022, 12:51 PM
Policies have no foundation in fact - says Otago University economist.

https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/policies-have-no-foundation-facts

Repugnant how this Ardern government has to use spin (as usual) to hide the true state of unemployment (& unemployables like the criminals & gang members on benefits) in NZ :

“However, at the end of the 2021 December quarter, 106,362 Kiwis were in the work-ready Jobseeker Support programme, which is more than 60% higher than five years ago, when Labour took office.

Therefore, the ‘‘true’’ unemployment rate stands at around 6%. Add to that the increase in people ‘‘not in the labour force’’ over the past five years and the picture looks less impressive.”

No wonder businesses cannot get staff:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/forestry-woes-worker-shortages-china-lockdown-and-log-exporters-worried-if-nz-dollar-strengthens/LAM7TGW3W56VLHRM7TJL5LSNLY/

davflaws
25-04-2022, 12:52 PM
It’s a fact that this government gives millions of dollars to gangs whose purpose in existence is to terrorise, intimidate and commit crimes.

It is not a fact. As I think you already know:-

The MOH controls money from the "Proceeds of Crime" putea to fund a Charitable Trust called Hard 2 Reach which provides residential marae based meth rehab programs. They are specifically designed for gang members. The pilot was sucessful and ongoing funding is dependent on outcome measures.

It suits you to keep repeating the slander, but your "facts" are often a product of your willingness to tell any story to discredit the Government.

Balance
25-04-2022, 12:53 PM
It is not a fact. As I think you already know:-

The MOH controls money from the "Proceeds of Crime" putea to fund a Charitable Trust called Hard 2 Reach which provides residential marae based programs for gang members called Kahukura. The pilot was sucessful and ongoing funding is dependent on outcome measures.

It suits you to keep repeating the slander, but your "facts" are often a product of your willingness to tell any story to discredit the Government.

Propaganda & Ardern spin which the likes of you swallow whole as usual.

“There is no cost of living crisis.”

“Kainga Ora does not have a no eviction policy.”

And this from the ones who brought you the ‘pulpit of truth’:

https://waikanaewatch.org/2021/09/25/jacinda-government-to-pay-for-altering-gang-members-tattoos-to-be-more-woke/

No money for Plunket though to keep services going but plenty for gangs & criminals & Maoris like the $120m for fixing maraes & creating 3,000 jobs. Less than 150 jobs created at the last update - BS government.

Bill Smith
25-04-2022, 01:03 PM
It is not a fact. As I think you already know:-

The MOH controls money from the "Proceeds of Crime" putea to fund a Charitable Trust called Hard 2 Reach which provides residential marae based meth rehab programs. They are specifically designed for gang members. The pilot was sucessful and ongoing funding is dependent on outcome measures.

It suits you to keep repeating the slander, but your "facts" are often a product of your willingness to tell any story to discredit the Government.

If you knew the recipients of the CHB "donations" you might have a more balanced view on the subject. None so blind as those that will not see.

davflaws
25-04-2022, 01:24 PM
If you knew the recipients of the CHB "donations" you might have a more balanced view on the subject.

Who are the CHB and who do they donate to? I have no idea what you are talking about and I suspect you don't either.

dobby41
25-04-2022, 01:52 PM
Skimmed through that as best I could, very long.

The question I think is, can you trust the CCP? Past history would say no.....

What do you think Balance?
You've been a big cheerleader for Chine recently.

BDL
25-04-2022, 02:23 PM
What do you think Balance?
You've been a big cheerleader for Chine recently.

What do you think dobby? Do you trust China? Are you allowed an opinion that is not Labour / Ardern. (she doesn't really care, she said) "Be kind."

dobby41
25-04-2022, 03:21 PM
What do you think dobby? Do you trust China? Are you allowed an opinion that is not Labour / Ardern. (she doesn't really care, she said) "Be kind."

No, I don't but I was asking Balance given he is very bullish about China.

Balance
26-04-2022, 08:26 AM
No, I don't but I was asking Balance given he is very bullish about China.

A good perspective which is in tune with mine :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/128437850/its-no-longer-enough-to-view-china-through-a-single-lens

"If you read the daily headlines, whether from Ukraine or closer to home in the Solomon Islands, you could be excused for concluding that conflict of some sort with China is inevitable. But in my view, seeing China as an existential threat in which everything it does is bad, and nothing it does is good, is unwarranted."

"New Zealand needs to use multiple lenses when viewing China, not only geopolitical but also human rights, economic and commercial, strategic, and cultural. None are sufficient alone. They have to be blended so that we can take a comprehensive view of our relations with this large and important country."

And this is an excellent example of why China will continue to rise while the US is in terminal decline:

https://huffpost.netblogpro.com/entry/marjorie-taylor-greene-1776-tweet_n_6264509fe4b07c34e9e178a2?utm_source=spotim&utm_medium=spotim_recirculation

Balance
26-04-2022, 08:30 AM
Meanwhile, Ardern & Labour are back-pedalling like crazy over co-governance after internal polling shows NZers sick to their back teeth with the divisive & racist policies of this incompetent government :

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/465897/labour-called-to-clarify-its-position-on-rotorua-electoral-rules

dobby41
26-04-2022, 12:33 PM
Meanwhile, Ardern & Labour are back-pedalling like crazy over co-governance after internal polling shows NZers sick to their back teeth with the divisive & racist policies of this incompetent government :

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/465897/labour-called-to-clarify-its-position-on-rotorua-electoral-rules

Well that's a good thing isn't it - responding to the public will?
Reading and responding to the electorate is called back-peddling and not doing so is being idiological - can't win either way it seems.

Key was a good one for it - swung around all over the show depending on their private research polls.

dobby41
26-04-2022, 12:36 PM
A good perspective which is in tune with mine :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/128437850/its-no-longer-enough-to-view-china-through-a-single-lens

"If you read the daily headlines, whether from Ukraine or closer to home in the Solomon Islands, you could be excused for concluding that conflict of some sort with China is inevitable. But in my view, seeing China as an existential threat in which everything it does is bad, and nothing it does is good, is unwarranted."

"New Zealand needs to use multiple lenses when viewing China, not only geopolitical but also human rights, economic and commercial, strategic, and cultural. None are sufficient alone. They have to be blended so that we can take a comprehensive view of our relations with this large and important country."

And this is an excellent example of why China will continue to rise while the US is in terminal decline:

https://huffpost.netblogpro.com/entry/marjorie-taylor-greene-1776-tweet_n_6264509fe4b07c34e9e178a2?utm_source=spotim&utm_medium=spotim_recirculation

Thanks - I appreciate the clarity.
Roughly where I stand also.
I don't trust China - they are out for themselves.
But, I don't trust USA either - they are out for themselves.
China just plays a much longer game than USA.

Balance
26-04-2022, 02:02 PM
Well that's a good thing isn't it - responding to the public will?
Reading and responding to the electorate is called back-peddling and not doing so is being idiological - can't win either way it seems.

Key was a good one for it - swung around all over the show depending on their private research polls.

If the public is aware of what's happening and their opinions are properly canvassed, discussed and debated - yes, it's a good thing.

That's NOT the case with Ardern & the Maori cabal in her cabinet, is it?

They are trying to force through racist & divisive policies through devious means - without the benefit of NZers being aware.

Remember how they hide the He Puapua report from their Coalition partner, NZ First?

And how they impose a requirement for a %tage of all government contracts to have to go to Maori interests (irrespective of capabilities or experience)?


https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1618415606201-VML0LTISBPX0WBUB2R49/Wave2.jpg?format=500w

Balance
26-04-2022, 02:14 PM
Thanks - I appreciate the clarity.
Roughly where I stand also.
I don't trust China - they are out for themselves.
But, I don't trust USA either - they are out for themselves.
China just plays a much longer game than USA.

I do business with China (exports & finance) and yes, the Chinese in China are indeed out for themselves. But which country is any different?

If you understand the China history of how they were bullied, humiliated and exploited by the Western powers & Japan however, you will not make the demonizing comments about them as Western media & governments are inclined to do.

A prime example :

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-25/peter-dutton-anzac-day-china-russia-nazi-germany/101013116

Peter Dutton : "......China was on a similar path to Germany in the 1930s in the lead up to World War II."

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/peter-dutton-says-australia-should-be-prepared-for-war/news-story/7ba64018bda3b940be2fe6f1a8954029

An extraordinary claim Australia should be prepared for war has been backed by Scott Morrison. Defence Minister Peter Dutton marked Anzac Day by again comparing China and Russia to Nazi Germany before World War II. “The only way you can preserve peace is to prepare for war and to be strong as a country,” Mr Dutton said.

Have a read of this and ask yourself if it's ever acceptable for a nation to force drugs (opium) on another nation through force of arms because the nation does not want to trade on unequal terms?

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30810596

dobby41
26-04-2022, 02:43 PM
I do business with China (exports & finance) and yes, the Chinese in China are indeed out for themselves. But which country is any different?

If you understand the China history of how they were bullied, humiliated and exploited by the Western powers & Japan however, you will not make the demonizing comments about them as Western media & governments are inclined to do.

I don't believe I have made any demonizing comments.
The thrust of this sub conversation was around trusting China to not execute the person being sent back - as they said they wouldn't.
Do YOU trust them to honour their word?

By the way, they have inflicted a lot of home goals like the Cultural Revolution.

Balance
26-04-2022, 04:30 PM
I don't believe I have made any demonizing comments.
The thrust of this sub conversation was around trusting China to not execute the person being sent back - as they said they wouldn't.
Do YOU trust them to honour their word?

By the way, they have inflicted a lot of home goals like the Cultural Revolution.

You forgot to add ‘The Great Leap Forward’ & Tiananmen Square massacre - anywhere between 20m to 50m people were estimated to have perished from the famine & killings. What have those deaths got to do with Western powers forcing drugs on the Chinese and treating the Chinese as inferior people in their own land?

Surely you can sympathise that any people so subjected to addiction & humiliation will look after their self interest when they are able to and view their bullies with suspicion and retribution when the right time comes along?

Panda-NZ-
26-04-2022, 04:57 PM
Surely you can sympathise that any people so subjected to addiction & humiliation will look after their self interest when they are able to and view their bullies with suspicion and retribution when the right time comes along?

What about the countries china is bullying?

& why don't they have any real allies other than russia and pakistan.

Balance
26-04-2022, 05:58 PM
Willie Jackson : "Democracy is the tyranny of the majority."

So Ardern is going to help change that to "DeMaoriCrazy - tyranny of the minority."

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1645995942210-EJQKXRINW56QNLJ81A0O/Chowder.jpg?format=500w

Balance
26-04-2022, 06:07 PM
Result of the housing policies of Ardern & her team of nincompoops - record increases in rents.

Cannot get anything right, can they?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/renting/128454021/rent-jumps-are-driving-people-out-of-their-homes

" ..... annual increases in many regions, with weekly rents up 17.8% to $530 in Taranaki, 13.6% to $500 in Manawatū/Whanganui, 11.4% to $490 in Canterbury and 9.1% to $600 in Bay of Plenty."

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1619975923177-HQPNRC8TEX5MH07H6C4Z/Rodeo%281%29.jpg?format=500w

westerly
26-04-2022, 07:52 PM
[QUOTE=Balance;953262]Meanwhile, Ardern & Labour are back-pedalling like crazy over co-governance after internal polling shows NZers sick to their back teeth with the divisive & racist policies of this incompetent government :

i
" If you understand the China history of how they were bullied, humiliated and exploited by the Western powers & Japan however, you will not make the demonizing comments about them as Western media & governments are inclined to do. "

A quote from a later post you made. Could not a similar happening be applied to the original settlers of NZ ? Maybe the present Govt. is trying to improve the present statistics which resulted from past actions.

westerly

Baa_Baa
26-04-2022, 08:17 PM
Maybe the present Govt. is trying to improve the present statistics which resulted from past actions.

westerly

I mean, who cares, history is history and at the rate this government is going they'll be history too in 18 months or so. My only concern is how much more badly they screw things up before the next government comes in, whoever that is. Things can get so bad that no new government can fix it in one term. That's where we're heading, a disaster that may not be fixable by a new government. Add it up and you have a whole generation of decline, going backwards, along with a whole host of new problems with societal division, resentment, oppression, cynicism, upset and even hatred. Labour has had long enough already, all they've done is made things worse, much worse.

couta1
26-04-2022, 08:47 PM
I mean, who cares, history is history and at the rate this government is going they'll be history too in 18 months or so. My only concern is how much more badly they screw things up before the next government comes in, whoever that is. Things can get so bad that no new government can fix it in one term. That's where we're heading, a disaster that may not be fixable by a new government. Add it up and you have a whole generation of decline, going backwards, along with a whole host of new problems with societal division, resentment, oppression, cynicism, upset and even hatred. Labour has had long enough already, all they've done is made things worse, much worse. That sums up the situation perfectly unfortunately.

moka
26-04-2022, 08:55 PM
A good perspective which is in tune with mine :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/128437850/its-no-longer-enough-to-view-china-through-a-single-lens

"If you read the daily headlines, whether from Ukraine or closer to home in the Solomon Islands, you could be excused for concluding that conflict of some sort with China is inevitable. But in my view, seeing China as an existential threat in which everything it does is bad, and nothing it does is good, is unwarranted."

"New Zealand needs to use multiple lenses when viewing China, not only geopolitical but also human rights, economic and commercial, strategic, and cultural. None are sufficient alone. They have to be blended so that we can take a comprehensive view of our relations with this large and important country."

And this is an excellent example of why China will continue to rise while the US is in terminal decline:

https://huffpost.netblogpro.com/entry/marjorie-taylor-greene-1776-tweet_n_6264509fe4b07c34e9e178a2?utm_source=spotim&utm_medium=spotim_recirculationYes, a good perspective that is also in tune with Ardern’s perspective on China. She does not have a black-and-white view of China and sees the country through multiple lenses and angles as well.

moka
26-04-2022, 09:36 PM
Meanwhile, Ardern & Labour are back-pedalling like crazy over co-governance after internal polling shows NZers sick to their back teeth with the divisive & racist policies of this incompetent government :

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/465897/labour-called-to-clarify-its-position-on-rotorua-electoral-rulesSounds like a discussion between grown-ups to me as they explore what co-management and co-governance for Maori means.
Co-governance and co-management arrangements beyond those already introduced through Treaty settlements, were a response to the need to meet Māori ambitions, and address Māori inequality.
As Willie Jackson said it’s about the invisibility that Māori have at council level.

Your comments don’t sound very grown-up. They sound like a broken record to me: “incompetent government, divisive & racist policies.”

davflaws
27-04-2022, 01:47 AM
Your comments don’t sound very grown-up. They sound like a broken record to me: “incompetent government, divisive & racist policies.”

They're not very grown up. Balance has a good brain and lots of wisdom about investing and markets. But he hates "the left" so much that on any topic where he can possibly diss the government his rationality deserts him.

At that stage he is not interested in finding out where the truth lies, or even where anyone else thinks it lies. He becomes interested only in scoring points and "winning".

If he can't do that, he doesn't actually engage with the other poster's argument, but instead heaps personal abuse on them.

Don't feed the trolls.

BDL
27-04-2022, 06:24 AM
I mean, who cares, history is history and at the rate this government is going they'll be history too in 18 months or so. My only concern is how much more badly they screw things up before the next government comes in, whoever that is. Things can get so bad that no new government can fix it in one term. That's where we're heading, a disaster that may not be fixable by a new government. Add it up and you have a whole generation of decline, going backwards, along with a whole host of new problems with societal division, resentment, oppression, cynicism, upset and even hatred. Labour has had long enough already, all they've done is made things worse, much worse.

Totally agree.

BDL
27-04-2022, 06:36 AM
I think we all have to be careful using the terms "multiple lenses" in regards to China. I agree, there are many different aspects in play.

Sometimes things ARE just "black & white". Like China's stand on Ukraine. They need to be called out properly. Putin is a threat to the world order as we know it. (there are also other numerous issues with the way China behaves)

There are times when seeing things through multiple lenses, can look, and be like, "sitting on the fence"

A good leader knows when that time is.....

Balance
27-04-2022, 07:49 AM
Sounds like a discussion between grown-ups to me as they explore what co-management and co-governance for Maori means.
Co-governance and co-management arrangements beyond those already introduced through Treaty settlements, were a response to the need to meet Māori ambitions, and address Māori inequality.
As Willie Jackson said it’s about the invisibility that Māori have at council level.

Your comments don’t sound very grown-up. They sound like a broken record to me: “incompetent government, divisive & racist policies.”

Don’t fall for this Ardern/Maori cabal ruse of playing ‘good cop, bad cop’ to lure NZers into believing that this government can be trusted to not push through with its divisive & racist co-governance He Pua Pua policies :

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political...e-jackson-says

It’s the usual spin and devious deflection by this totally untrustworthy government.

They are playing NZers for suckers.

Only the indoctrinated brain washed and aspiring to be bottom dwellers will believe the whole Rotorua deMaoriCrazy saga is not pre-planned in the beehive.

“Most transparent & accountable government ever” - Ardern

Panda-NZ-
27-04-2022, 10:10 AM
Don’t fall for this Ardern/Maori cabal ruse of playing ‘good cop, bad cop’ to lure NZers into believing that this government can be trusted to not push through with its divisive & racist co-governance He Pua Pua policies :

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political...e-jackson-says

It’s the usual spin and devious deflection by this totally untrustworthy government.

They are playing NZers for suckers.

Only the indoctrinated brain washed and aspiring to be bottom dwellers will believe the whole Rotorua deMaoriCrazy saga is not pre-planned in the beehive.

“Most transparent & accountable government ever” - Ardern

What about whanau ora and separate maori charter schools.

You will get these sort of policies under any govt.

Panda-NZ-
27-04-2022, 10:17 AM
Act couldn't stop it either, only a crucial swing vote can like NZ first.

Balance
27-04-2022, 12:12 PM
Result of Ardern’s pro-criminal & gang policies - ram raids and shootings :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/eight-offenders-and-four-vehicles-in-attempt-to-ram-raid-west-auckland-businesses-overnight/CRE7FQPFMGOPSRURL5MW3DSAFY/

Notice the government’s deafening silence of the crimes? Poto Williams has been told to not say anything as she is only interested in looking after the interests of the criminals.

dobby41
27-04-2022, 12:23 PM
You forgot to add ‘The Great Leap Forward’ & Tiananmen Square massacre - anywhere between 20m to 50m people were estimated to have perished from the famine & killings. What have those deaths got to do with Western powers forcing drugs on the Chinese and treating the Chinese as inferior people in their own land?

Surely you can sympathise that any people so subjected to addiction & humiliation will look after their self interest when they are able to and view their bullies with suspicion and retribution when the right time comes along?

You didn't answer a simple question but I expected that.

PS - I didn't forget to add anything.
I was in China just prior to the Tiananmen Square massacre - a much more interesting country then than now, on the cusp of the big changes that have happened since.

dobby41
27-04-2022, 12:29 PM
Meanwhile, Ardern & Labour are back-pedalling like crazy over co-governance after internal polling shows NZers sick to their back teeth with the divisive & racist policies of this incompetent government :

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/465897/labour-called-to-clarify-its-position-on-rotorua-electoral-rules

You may not have noticed that this isn't a Govt bill - it is a local council bill.
It has now passed its 1st reading and will go to committee where the Attorney General's report will be considered.
The Govt has flagged that there are some serious issues to be considered - this isn't back-pedalling at all, using the correct process.
It would be quite undemocratic for the Govt to ignore the wish of the council and ignore the bill completely.

dobby41
27-04-2022, 12:31 PM
Yes, a good perspective that is also in tune with Ardern’s perspective on China. She does not have a black-and-white view of China and sees the country through multiple lenses and angles as well.

Black and white views tend to come from Ideology and closed minds.
There are shades of grey everywhere.

Balance
27-04-2022, 01:46 PM
You may not have noticed that this isn't a Govt bill - it is a local council bill.
It has now passed its 1st reading and will go to committee where the Attorney General's report will be considered.
The Govt has flagged that there are some serious issues to be considered - this isn't back-pedalling at all, using the correct process.
It would be quite undemocratic for the Govt to ignore the wish of the council and ignore the bill completely.

You seriously think that Coffey would be able to get the bill as far as he has without being a Maori government MP & without the Maori cabal involvement?

Like I wrote, don’t fall for this ruse of Ardern & the Maori cabal to pull the wool over NZers’ eyes.

couta1
27-04-2022, 01:51 PM
Black and white views tend to come from Ideology and closed minds.
There are shades of grey everywhere. Yet Ardern follows the ideology of the WEF fervently and thats dangerous.