Labour govt 2020-23

[fungus pudding]

In this mornings Newshub interview, Dr Sharma presented as credible, coherent, lucid, sharp, rational, relaxed & attentive, as he did in an earlier interview I commented on.

Not symptoms of bipolar disorder, or on medication for it, as inferred by a few.

The 'transparent trio' of Ardern, McAnulty & Szabo declined their invitations to appear.

Do they have something to hide?

Conversely, Matt McCarten made a strong visual statement, evidencing homelessness under Labour, by appearing as if he had been sleeping rough under a hedge, despite the efforts of the make up crew.

Sharma does present well - articulate and plausible. Although he seems to have a reputation for being rough on his staff, both in his MP role and a doctor. I think the Labour party were trying their best to manage him.
Two sides to the story which we'll learn more about in the near future.

[nztx]

Leading = ...


Pretending to be Leading for now

Reality.. Leading to be unbelieved - more than likely to be gone before the end of next year ;)

Honarary Aunty status currently being prepared in time for departure tea spilling ceremony

[davflaws]

Sharma does present well - articulate and plausible. Although he seems to have a reputation for being rough on his staff, both in his MP role and a doctor. I think the Labour party were trying their best to manage him.
Two sides to the story which we'll learn more about in the near future.

Interesting how our politics can determine our perceptions - Getty found Sharma totally credible and dicounted Mat McCarten. I had it largely the other way. See below.

You are right FP - We can and (IMO) should watch and wait before making a judgment, but anyone directly involved hasn't got that luxury. I wouldn't join the "Sharma Team" just yet on any basis other than wanting to diss Labour and distract from the Uffindell saga.

I have no idea whether Dr Sharma "needs help" or whether that is just a convenient way of invalidating him and his claims or a bit of both. But I am pretty sure he would come across under good cross examination as petty, thin skinned, self entitled, and obsessive. In short - a "difficult" boss and colleague, and a "problem" to manage in the hothouse of an adversarial system.

Politically, I tilt strongly towards the left, but safe workplaces are more important to me than political advantage and I have represented functionaries from all over the political spectrum. Over the last twenty five years I have taken a couple of hundred cases involving workplace bullying.

This one is certainly not clear cut. In the unlikely event that Sharma consulted me (above my pay grade and I am retired) - I would decline to represent him. A loose cannon - ****loads of claims but won't (or can't) produce much evidence, and what is produced is equivocal at best.

[Getty]

Its been a strenuous week for the Labour crew, so time for some Kiwi music to help them relax.

https://youtu.be/jwAUpObYXr8

[iceman]

Which is still legal.

While having secret recordings is probably not.

OMG. You really show your integrity and honesty now 👎

[Panda-NZ-]

I don't think Labour should expel him.

Having him on the crossbench going "poor me" is not going to go down too well. Simply keep on ignoring him then find a new candidate for hamilton west.

[Balance]

Looks like Dr Sharma has built up plenty of ammunition to progressively feed into the public arena.

He will be a thorn in Ardern’s side for a while yet. 🕺🕺🕺

As for his political career, he does not seem to care a hoot - he has a medical career to go back to.

[Getty]

Interesting how our politics can determine our perceptions - Getty found Sharma totally credible and dicounted Mat McCarten. I had it largely the other way. See below.


A correction, If I may davflaws, to your perception of what I wrote about Matt.

Firstly, I acknowledged his presence, compared to 3 no shows mentioned by name.
Secondly, and more importantly, I did not discount him as a person, or his comments, but I did comment on his unkempt appearance.

I respect Matt McCarten as a seasoned political commentator, and always look forward to him sharing his perspectives and views.

[davflaws]

A correction, If I may davflaws, to your perception of what I wrote about Matt.

Firstly, I acknowledged his presence, compared to 3 no shows mentioned by name.
Secondly, and more importantly, I did not discount him as a person, or his comments, but I did comment on his unkempt appearance.

I respect Matt McCarten as a seasoned political commentator, and always look forward to him sharing his perspectives and views.

Thank you - you are quite right. I mispercieved your post with respect to Matt McCarten. He did look scruffy - but was as usual insightful and (IMO) on the money.

[Balance]

A correction, If I may davflaws, to your perception of what I wrote about Matt.

Firstly, I acknowledged his presence, compared to 3 no shows mentioned by name.
Secondly, and more importantly, I did not discount him as a person, or his comments, but I did comment on his unkempt appearance.

I respect Matt McCarten as a seasoned political commentator, and always look forward to him sharing his perspectives and views.

He looked like he crawled out of bed in the jungle and got called at the very last minute to fill a slot - because of the 3 cowardly no shows.

Matt of course has had a singularly unsuccessful political career. Not sure I would put any weight on his political commentary.

[Panda-NZ-]

Matt of course has had a singularly unsuccessful political career. Not sure I would put any weight on his political commentary.

Well, he did better than Dr sharma.

[Bjauck]

He looked like he crawled out of bed in the jungle and got called at the very last minute to fill a slot - because of the 3 cowardly no shows.

Matt of course has had a singularly unsuccessful political career. Not sure I would put any weight on his political commentary.

As a student I was involved in the 1992 Alliance by-election campaign in Tamaki when Muldoon resigned. McCarten was the campaign manager and he did a good job in rallying the troops, and there was huge number of them, as there were for the other parties too. He raised the profile of the new Alliance Party. The alliance candidate beat the Labour one, to come second behind Clem Simich. However back then if National had had a potato as the candidate, it would have won!

BTW I never voted for Alliance!

[Panda-NZ-]

Matt is sort of an endangered species in today's NZ - a unionist.

It seems he was right about a few things given the sheer number of people leaving to escape NZ's sh*t employment conditions.

[Balance]

A stitch in time saves nine.

Classic case of the ever clueless and useless Ardern grossly mismanaging a salvageable situation with Dr Sharma - resulting in huge damage to her & the Labour government.

Very very satisfying indeed! 😆

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/heather-du-plessis-allan-gaurav-sharma-why-labour-should-have-held-an-inquiry/JEDVM2A56X5OWV2ERBKEUIFYQY/

Should have agreed to an investigation.

Had she done it, everything would probably have stopped that night.

1. Labour wouldn't have needed to call a secret caucus meeting that wasn't a caucus meeting because one member of the caucus wasn't there.

2. They wouldn't have needed to suspend, thereby sparking another round of accusations from him.

3. He wouldn't have revealed that at least one senior Labour MP was leaking information to him about those caucus meetings.

4. He wouldn't have gone on TV and radio three days later, calling the Prime Minister a liar.

5. He wouldn't have accused the PM's staff of using dual roles to hide official information from the public.

6. And he wouldn't have accused the party of teaching backbenchers how to hide information by using the phone instead of emails.

7. They were busted holding a secret meeting behind his back, after all.

8. It was a meeting the PM's office described as in "dispute" until it wasn't in dispute anymore and the PM admitted it.

9. The biggest political problem here for Labour is that they can't control him. They lost that ability the moment they suspended him from the caucus. They should've just called an investigation.

[tim23]

A stitch in time saves nine.

Classic case of the ever clueless and useless Ardern grossly mismanaging a salvageable situation with Dr Sharma - resulting in huge damage to her & the Labour government.

Very very satisfying indeed! 😆

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/heather-du-plessis-allan-gaurav-sharma-why-labour-should-have-held-an-inquiry/JEDVM2A56X5OWV2ERBKEUIFYQY/

Should have agreed to an investigation.

Had she done it, everything would probably have stopped that night.

1. Labour wouldn't have needed to call a secret caucus meeting that wasn't a caucus meeting because one member of the caucus wasn't there.

2. They wouldn't have needed to suspend, thereby sparking another round of accusations from him.

3. He wouldn't have revealed that at least one senior Labour MP was leaking information to him about those caucus meetings.

4. He wouldn't have gone on TV and radio three days later, calling the Prime Minister a liar.

5. He wouldn't have accused the PM's staff of using dual roles to hide official information from the public.

6. And he wouldn't have accused the party of teaching backbenchers how to hide information by using the phone instead of emails.

7. They were busted holding a secret meeting behind his back, after all.

8. It was a meeting the PM's office described as in "dispute" until it wasn't in dispute anymore and the PM admitted it.

9. The biggest political problem here for Labour is that they can't control him. They lost that ability the moment they suspended him from the caucus. They should've just called an investigation.

Your constant personal attacks on the PM suggest to me you have a real issue with women in positions of power - your attacks are in poor taste.

[stoploss]

Your constant personal attacks on the PM suggest to me you have a real issue with women in positions of power - your attacks are in poor taste.
What ae you on about ? I heard he loves it when his wife is on top .......

[Getty]

Comrade Cinders is not above criticism.

She is leading NZ to a dangerous path of apartheid, and her team has failed miserably, not implementing their election planks.

Time she walked the plank!

[Getty]

A few weeks ago, the PM was getting needled by a bunch of pricks within the party.

When they cut up rough, she exclaimed "I need a doctor!"

Dr Sharma, who had just been charming some other snakes, piped up, "no worries, I'll stitch you up!"

[ynot]

Your constant personal attacks on the PM suggest to me you have a real issue with women in positions of power - your attacks are in poor taste.

That is quite an assumption. Man/woman, if they are not up to the job get rid of them. If they are not acting in the best interest of the electorate, get rid of them.

[Panda-NZ-]

That is quite an assumption. Man/woman, if they are not up to the job get rid of them. If they are not acting in the best interest of the electorate, get rid of them.

Indeed, get rid of dr sharma who is ignoring hamilton west to focus on the trivial.

[tim23]

That is quite an assumption. Man/woman, if they are not up to the job get rid of them. If they are not acting in the best interest of the electorate, get rid of them.

You need to read more of Balances posts they tend to be very misogynistic in nature - Balance is not alone though in that across society. Why do competent PMs get called Aunty? It’s pathetic.

[Getty]

Why do competent PMs get called Aunty? It’s pathetic.

It's a permeation of Maori influence into Nz's language.

More a recognition of maternal behaviour, than derogatory.

[nztx]

Indeed, get rid of dr sharma who is ignoring hamilton west to focus on the trivial.


Why get rid of him ? ;)

Make him leader instead to replace Ardern & improve the Average IQ of Labour's
front bench by 450% instantly :)

[tim23]

It's a permeation of Maori influence into Nz's language.

More a recognition of maternal behaviour, than derogatory.
Really? - Helen Clark was PM some years ago now and she suffered same pathetic Aunty stuff.

[nztx]

You need to read more of Balances posts they tend to be very misogynistic in nature - Balance is not alone though in that across society. Why do competent PMs get called Aunty? It’s pathetic.

Well Aunty Andrew would be plain ridiculous wouldn't it - which was the likely case before
Ardern came sloping in :)

[davflaws]

It's a permeation of Maori influence into Nz's language.

More a recognition of maternal behaviour, than derogatory.

I wish that were so. The sobriquet "Aunty Helen" was used along with "Nanny State" to position the former Labour Government as interfering, restrictive and out of touch.

I don't think that was a "borrowing" from modern Maori. "Aunty BBC" predated it by many many years.

[Getty]

Really? - Helen Clark was PM some years ago now and she suffered same pathetic Aunty stuff.

I realise it's not an everyday term in Remuera or Khandallah, but spend your time amongst Maori people, and you will hear it regularly, and not just directed at their blood Aunt.

[tim23]

I realise it's not an everyday term in Remuera or Khandallah, but spend your time amongst Maori people, and you will hear it regularly, and not just directed at their blood Aunt.
Well hello - I’m well aware of the Māori use but referring to 2 female PMs is patrons and pathetic.

[Balance]

Minister of Justice Kiri Allan no less - email released by Dr Sharma - reminding Labour MPs to circumvent OIA.

Ardern caught lying again!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/pm-jacinda-ardern-to-face-questions-ahead-of-protests-gaurav-sharma-nelson-and-kiwibank-buy-out/P2PUNG5XP5ZLDSOO4NCOFLC6EY/

The message purported to be from Allan says it is "less than desirable" when written correspondence is shared without discussing issues first.

"Hey team - reminder to have a chat with your ministerial colleague before sending correspondence.

"All correspondence is OIA-able and if we are being lobbied on issues by colleagues, especially where we haven't had a yarn, things unfolding through OIA process less then desirable [sic].

[tim23]

Well hello - I’m well aware of the Māori use but referring to 2 female PMs is patrons and pathetic.

My error - patrons should read patronising 😀

[Balance]

Minister of Justice Kiri Allan no less - email released by Dr Sharma - reminding Labour MPs to circumvent OIA.

Ardern caught lying again!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/pm-jacinda-ardern-to-face-questions-ahead-of-protests-gaurav-sharma-nelson-and-kiwibank-buy-out/P2PUNG5XP5ZLDSOO4NCOFLC6EY/

The message purported to be from Allan says it is "less than desirable" when written correspondence is shared without discussing issues first.

"Hey team - reminder to have a chat with your ministerial colleague before sending correspondence.

"All correspondence is OIA-able and if we are being lobbied on issues by colleagues, especially where we haven't had a yarn, things unfolding through OIA process less then desirable [sic].

And Ardern did not use her infamous ‘I reject’ or ‘I refute’ to dismiss the message from her Minister of Justice to circumvent OIA.

Wonder why.

[Bjauck]

I realise it's not an everyday term in Remuera or Khandallah, but spend your time amongst Maori people, and you will hear it regularly, and not just directed at their blood Aunt. Many cultures use “Aunty” and “Uncle” for older/respected people. Even British/Irish people some times refer to older family friends as Aunty/Uncle. Do we expect a female PM to be like our Aunties but we want something other than an avuncular male PM? It is difficult to shake off the old sexist expectations.

Angela Merkel was sometimes referred to as Mutti (Mummy).

[tim23]

Many cultures use “Aunty” and “Uncle” for older/respected people. Even British/Irish people some times refer to older family friends as Aunty/Uncle. Do we expect a female PM to be like our Aunties but we want something other than an avuncular male PM? It is difficult to shake off the old sexist expectations.

Angela Merkel was sometimes referred to as Mutti (Mummy).
True but the respect angle doesn’t apply when used for Arden and Clark - everyone knows that.

[Getty]

Anyway, I don't think Jacinda will be too concerned at Aunty being directed her way.

She probably expected it, as spillover from Helen Clarks days.

She's much too busy, playing Doctors and Nurses these days.

[Getty]

Meanwhile, at the PM's residence.

Ring Ring.

Good evening, Clarke speaking.

Oh, is that you Helen?

No, Clarke Gayford!

Oh, sorry, the voice was so deep, I couldn't tell the difference!

[tim23]

Meanwhile, at the PM's residence.

Ring Ring.

Good evening, Clarke speaking.

Oh, is that you Helen?

No, Clarke Gayford!

Oh, sorry, the voice was so deep, I couldn't tell the difference!
Another example of what female leaders put up with - mind you I think John Keys terrible Kiwi accent takes some beating 😀

[Bjauck]

Another example of what female leaders put up with - mind you I think John Keys terrible Kiwi accent takes some beating 
Margaret Thstcher worked to deepen her voice as she had been criticised for being too shrill. So female leaders are often damned for being too deeply masculine or damned for being shrill!

[Getty]

Tv1 news, 2 out of 5 children not attending school regularly.

I hope Jacinda acts like a good Aunty, and sorts that out quick smart.

[Balance]

A view from overseas.

First Louisa Wall.

Now Dr Sharma.

The spin mistress caught in her web of deceit and hypocrisy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/20/jacinda-arderns-iron-grip-on-new-zealands-labour-party-is-slipping-and-that-means-trouble

[westerly]

A view from overseas.

First Louisa Wall.

Now Dr Sharma.

The spin mistress caught in her web of deceit and hypocrisy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/20/jacinda-arderns-iron-grip-on-new-zealands-labour-party-is-slipping-and-that-means-trouble

Henry Cooke is a Stuff reporter. Not an overseas view at all.

westerly

[tim23]

Tv1 news, 2 out of 5 children not attending school regularly.

I hope Jacinda acts like a good Aunty, and sorts that out quick smart.

Was that meant to be funny?😀

[Getty]

Ah Tim, l hope you are not getting your sufferance and your suffrage mixed up.

But it's deadly serious that 2 out of 5 kids are not attending school. Around Hastings it's blurred when it's holidays and when it's not.
It does not augur well for Nz, all part of the dumbing down of NZ.

[tim23]

Ah Tim, l hope you are not getting your sufferance and your suffrage mixed up.

But it's deadly serious that 2 out of 5 kids are not attending school. Around Hastings it's blurred when it's holidays and when it's not.
It does not augur well for Nz, all part of the dumbing down of NZ.
I agree it’s a real issue - regular attendance I think is defined as attending 9 days each fortnight so not a high bar. I suspect some workplaces have experienced similar issues - there’s no longer any stigma attached to ringing in sick.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Hopefully Dr Sharma is successful in having his awful disingenuous parliamentary colleagues expelled from the Labour Party.

[Getty]

At todays caucus meeting Guarev will be like a Tendulkar going in to bat.

But he must expect an underarm bowl from Mallard, to take him out for a duck.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Just read that Dr Sharma has been subjected to yet more horrific bullying by the Labour Party, with meek colleagues rallying behind the bullies and expelling the honest doctor from the caucus for telling the truth. This will both validate and empower the bullies, ensuring that they will continue with the bullying of those around them - and the bullying will likely get worse. If you appease a bully in this way, you only embolden them.

[Getty]

Gaurev has been bowled out for now.

But has he been whacked out of the park?

Will it be the end of his career?

Will he just regard it as play delayed, due to bad light?

Can he play off a sticky wicket?

Will he be the next John A Lee, who attacked a Savage?

[Baa_Baa]

The Facts (https://thefacts.nz/thefactsarchive/) ... look and weep.

[Panda-NZ-]

Just read that Dr Sharma has been subjected to yet more horrific bullying by the Labour Party, with meek colleagues rallying behind the bullies and expelling the honest doctor from the caucus for telling the truth. This will both validate and empower the bullies, ensuring that they will continue with the bullying of those around them - and the bullying will likely get worse. If you appease a bully in this way, you only embolden them.

Horrific = being ignored and talked at with a raised voice.

Have some sympathy for the staff members who suffered from the doctors' bullying.

[tim23]

At todays caucus meeting Guarev will be like a Tendulkar going in to bat.

But he must expect an underarm bowl from Mallard, to take him out for a duck.
No need for a cricket analogy- football more appropriate- think own goal by Dr Plonker the former Labour MP.

[tim23]

Just read that Dr Sharma has been subjected to yet more horrific bullying by the Labour Party, with meek colleagues rallying behind the bullies and expelling the honest doctor from the caucus for telling the truth. This will both validate and empower the bullies, ensuring that they will continue with the bullying of those around them - and the bullying will likely get worse. If you appease a bully in this way, you only embolden them.

Alleged bullying - more likely to be porkies.

[Blue Skies]

Just read that Dr Sharma has been subjected to yet more horrific bullying by the Labour Party, with meek colleagues rallying behind the bullies and expelling the honest doctor from the caucus for telling the truth. This will both validate and empower the bullies, ensuring that they will continue with the bullying of those around them - and the bullying will likely get worse. If you appease a bully in this way, you only embolden them.


11.35am today.
Asked what was the worst bullying he has faced, Dr Sharma said, when Kieran McAnulty asked for a meeting but never turned up because he was celebrating the America's Cup win.

Hmm....don't want to sound judgmental, but. Really,... that's it, that's the worst ???

Wonder if he's ever noticed the abuse Jacinda Adern has to put up with.
Dr Sharma better not ever come on here, he'll be shocked at the bullying which goes on here.

[Balance]

Ardern caught out trying to deflect (using the Nelson disastrous floods no less) to avoid the hard questions.

The spin mistress has no shame.

https://www.news.com.au/world/pacific/new-zealand-pm-accused-of-using-natural-disaster-to-dodge-hard-questions/news-story/c6fbde5b227e4986d1beeacf78d3af7e

“Bridge fired back: “Obviously, what’s happened in Nelson is a very serious situation, but to imply that we shouldn’t be asking you about very serious accusations about your office on the basis that there’s been a tragedy in Nelson I think most people would find a little shady.”

[Panda-NZ-]

It's the definition of a beltway issue. Most NZers would be pleased to know that at least someone is mature enough to focus on the real issues (like the climate change floods).

[Panda-NZ-]

Ryan bridge has been watching too much "the office".

[Balance]

Failed promises - Ardern’s legacy when she is turfed out next year.

The UN is most welcome to her - the sooner the better.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1659221/jacinda-ardern-broken-promsies-new-zealand-spt

Mr Farrar said: "A big problem for Ardern is her lack of delivery. There has been a whole range of promises she made when she first came to power in 2017. She said her government would build 100,000 houses within 10 years. They have built 1,300 after four years.

"They said they'd plant a billion trees, they have done four percent of that.

"Just this week there was a story that they promised 100,000 counselling hours for students to help with the pandemic, they are actually delivering 800 hours a month or something like that.

"They promised they would build a light rail system in Auckland to be completed by the end of next year, they are now saying they will sign off a business case for it by 2025.“

[Getty]

No need for a cricket analogy- football more appropriate- think own goal by Dr Plonker the former Labour MP.
Tim, are you on the plonk?

Your plonking posts are more akin to boxing.
Plenty of plonking & low blows!

Ouch.

[777]

Tim, are you on the plonk?

Your plonking posts are more akin to boxing.
Plenty of plonking & low blows!

Ouch.

He is in panic mode.

[Panda-NZ-]

He is in panic mode.

Panic = trying to distract from the alleged Sam uffindel assault (then its coverup) with a non-story.

[777]

Panic = trying to distract from the uffindel assault with this.

You too.....

[Getty]

Panic = trying to distract from the Sam uffindel alleged assault with a non-story.

Panda, how many times has a sitting MP been expelled from the Labour Caucus, and maybe the Party itself?

Is that a non-story?

[Panda-NZ-]

16 MPs have left national vs one for labour (despite 64 MPs this time).. that's pretty good.

[Getty]

16 MPs have left national vs one for labour (despite 64 MPs this time).. that's pretty good.

Well, it would be excellent if it was a correct factual analogy.

If it was true, then that would make the expelling of a Labour MP even more news worthy wouldn't it?

[Getty]

While you are consulting your propaganda sheet, could you name the 16 Nats who were expelled from their caucus, over what time frame?

[Panda-NZ-]

Dr sharma has not been expelled from labour, he may even stay in.

[Getty]

Dr sharma has not been expelled from labour, he may even stay in.

I wrote he is expelled from caucus, and may be expelled from the party.

You will be rooting for him to stay won't you?

[Getty]

While we wait for your list of 16 Nats expelled from caucus, I Googled the subject, and instead got 5 pages of Headlines on Dr Sharma.

So your opinion of what is a non story and theirs, seems to be at a variance...

[Panda-NZ-]

I said 16 MPs have left national.. nothing about expelled from a "caucus".

[Getty]

I said 16 MPs have left national.. nothing about expelled from a "caucus".

In post #7311 I asked How many times has a sitting Labour MP been expelled from their caucus, and your immediate response was to create a 16 to 1 scorecard.

Very naughty!

[Panda-NZ-]

When the scorecard is wrong you sometimes have to make changes.

[Getty]

When the scorecard is wrong you sometimes have to make some changes.

Is that the most oblique apology in history?

[Panda-NZ-]

Nope I'm saying expelled from caucus is a meaningless measure, those outside the "beltway" wouldn't care.

[Getty]

Nope I'm saying expelled from caucus is a meaningless measure, those outside the "beltway" wouldn't care.

Mr Google, you have just been called a "beltway", whatever that is.

Could you please amend what comes up in your search engines, to prioritise Panda's preferences!

[Balance]

The most open & transparent government ever - Ardern (Spin Mistress Extraordinaire)

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1661290279659-79TR0X7VOHEXP4AI9ZEN/quick+%26+easy.jpg?format=500w

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1660427010418-KK0O0ZNQGV28WTWRI52L/3+cheers.jpg?format=500w

[westerly]

Ardern caught out trying to deflect (using the Nelson disastrous floods no less) to avoid the hard questions.

The spin mistress has no shame.

https://www.news.com.au/world/pacific/new-zealand-pm-accused-of-using-natural-disaster-to-dodge-hard-questions/news-story/c6fbde5b227e4986d1beeacf78d3af7e

“Bridge fired back: “Obviously, what’s happened in Nelson is a very serious situation, but to imply that we shouldn’t be asking you about very serious accusations about your office on the basis that there’s been a tragedy in Nelson I think most people would find a little shady.”

You either spend day and night trawling the internet for any link you can use against the PM or you are being fed information as a mouthpiece for an anti government organisation ? Rather sad either way.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

You either spend day and night trawling the internet for any link you can use against the PM or you are being fed information as a mouthpiece for an anti government organisation ? Rather sad either way.

westerly

Nothing sad about that. It's God's work - someone has to do it.

[Bill Smith]

You either spend day and night trawling the internet for any link you can use against the PM or you are being fed information as a mouthpiece for an anti government organisation ? Rather sad either way.

westerly
chinese panda, tim22, bluesky and you....fit that description to a T (for the left).

[777]

chinese panda, tim22, bluesky and you....fit that description to a T (for the left).

You forgot Dobby.

[Panda-NZ-]

chinese panda, tim22, bluesky and you....fit that description to a T (for the left).

Who says we're all left.

It's a coalition who is simply not interested in what the other lot are peddling.

[tim23]

Nothing sad about that. It's God's work - someone has to do it.
Gee if you are implying that Balance is God any religious types beware! No doubt you will reply with your haughty and obtuse best and no doubt I will have made an error of grammar or spelling 😀

[tim23]

chinese panda, tim22, bluesky and you....fit that description to a T (for the left).
I object!😀

[dobby41]

You forgot Dobby.

I go on holiday for a while and everyone forgets me :(
It was a good holiday.

[tim23]

I go on holiday for a while and everyone forgets me :(
It was a good holiday.
There must be more of us than that? Maybe Fish but I’m assuming Balance has been excluded 😀

[Getty]

There must be more of us than that? Maybe Fish but I’m assuming Balance has been excluded 😀
Count me in, especially if there is a crony related, highly paid contract on offer, with no accountability, preferably in home construction or social services.

[Baa_Baa]

Now that the government has bought KiwiBank, any ideas when they'll drop the 'K'?

[fungus pudding]

Now that the government has bought KiwiBank, any ideas when they'll drop the 'K'?

This lot will have it gone by the morning.

[Bjauck]

Now that the government has bought KiwiBank, any ideas when they'll drop the 'K'? IwiBan? Isn't that what the right wing of National Party tried to do for so long?

[nztx]

This lot will have it gone by the morning.

sold to the Reserve blank .. with the buckets untouched to offset growing Govt
'mickey mouse round in a circle' artificial debt ? ;)

[nztx]

IwiBan? Isn't that what the right wing of National Party tried to do for so long?


This Gov't's finance abilities ? ..'K ;)

[Balance]

-------------------------------------

[Panda-NZ-]

Though, the jobless rate has gone down to 3% or less since she became PM.

[Balance]

Jacinda Ardern said in 2017, ‘I refuse to stand by while children are sleeping in cars’.

Well, the spin mistress is not only standing by while the number of homeless and children sleeping in cars increase 300% (yes, 300%) since she became PM - she’s now trying to hoodwink NZers about the numbers.

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/08/19/prime-minister-plays-with-red-herrings-while-children-sleep-in-cars/

“Under the Labour government this number has gone from 51 at the end of 2017, to 228 in June this year. Similarly, the number of people living in tents has also climbed from 21 at the end of 2017 to 84 in June this year.”

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1619975923177-HQPNRC8TEX5MH07H6C4Z/Rodeo%281%29.jpg?format=500w

[Aaron]

Interesting opinion piece by Matthew Hooton in the herald this morning.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/matthew-hooton-forget-the-facts-just-focus-on-the-vibe/ZK7O3PKXP4IR6NBUKJTRFDBWDA/

There was a little bit about Brian Tamaki's march and the fact they did not really know what they were marching for, but the really interesting bit was about national's "new" policy to get under 25s into work with mentors etc.

Labour attacked it as almost indescribably evil and a week later it turned out to be existing policy.

It would be funny if it were not so serious. It appears national was not aware of current policy before announcing "new" policy which obviously sounds like a good idea as both parties support it.

Labour denounced it even though it was existing policy so they were also ignorant of what is happening in the public service and the media who appear more like ignorant sh*t stirrers than intelligent journalists pumped it up in the papers because they were ignorant as well.

WTF politicians don't even know what is happening in the public service.

I am largely ignorant of what happens in the public service but then again I am not paid fulltime to be aware of these things, and you would assume also that journalists might check such details before publishing a load of cr*p.

[Getty]

https://youtu.be/HrBHyC1xbCk

[Getty]

Golden Opportunity for Aunty Cinders (sorry Tim) to solve Aucklands homelessness.

John Keys old mansion in Remmers that last sold for $24.5M, is up for sale.

Imagine how many bunks you could poke in there, and plenty of room on the lawn for tents.

A very symbolic change from capitalism to socialism.

Lets do this!

[tim23]

Golden Opportunity for Aunty Cinders (sorry Tim) to solve Aucklands homelessness.

John Keys old mansion in Remmers that last sold for $24.5M, is up for sale.

Imagine how many bunks you could poke in there, and plenty of room on the lawn for tents.

A very symbolic change from capitalism to socialism.

Lets do this!
Patronising and pathetic even disrespectful to her position.

[Panda-NZ-]

Patronising and pathetic even disrespectful to her position.

One of the deplorables who are not in the team of 5 million.

They bring no policy ideas or constructive solutions.

So instead it's a list of complaints.

[Blue Skies]

Golden Opportunity for Aunty Cinders (sorry Tim) to solve Aucklands homelessness.

John Keys old mansion in Remmers that last sold for $24.5M, is up for sale.

Imagine how many bunks you could poke in there, and plenty of room on the lawn for tents.

A very symbolic change from capitalism to socialism.

Lets do this!



The house is in Parnell, not Remuera & neighbours were gobsmacked at the price a buyer paid for it 5 years ago.
It was many many $millions above its market value even allowing for a premium for a trophy house, in a very private & confidential sale to an anonymous buyer who wasn't interested in moving in even well before the Covid lockdown.
After the sale, the house sat empty. There didn't seem to be any competition near that level & why people asked would any buyer pay so much more than necessary, in a free market.
And if it was a trophy house, why would the buyer leave it unoccupied, unused.

Speculation was rife but hushed in certain circles with some suggesting there may have been some kind of political payback involved.
I'm not suggesting for a moment this is the case, but just providing some interesting background.

[tim23]

One of the deplorables who are not in the team of 5 million.

They bring no policy ideas or constructive solutions.

So instead it's a list of complaints.
Well please list the Key governments achievements if you will?

[Balance]

Jacinda Ardern said in 2017, ‘I refuse to stand by while children are sleeping in cars’.

Well, the spin mistress is not only standing by while the number of homeless and children sleeping in cars increase 300% (yes, 300%) since she became PM - she’s now trying to hoodwink NZers about the numbers.

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/08/19/prime-minister-plays-with-red-herrings-while-children-sleep-in-cars/



Ram raids up 400% (yes, 400%) since the spin mistress Ardern took office in 2017.

She not only breeds beneficiaries, homelessness but criminals as well.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/08/police-minister-chris-hipkins-concerned-about-spike-in-ram-raids-as-auckland-sees-three-more-burglaries.html

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1654289234990-VJA5L5EF5V4RZ7YJDBT6/return.jpg?format=500w

[Getty]

Been out preparing food parcels.

For some reason, demand has escalated since Taxcinda has been on the throne.

My earlier post struck a raw nerve with one or two.

Never mind, only a year to go to elections, then all will be put out of their misery.

[Bjauck]

Been out preparing food parcels.

For some reason, demand has escalated since Taxcinda has been on the throne.

My earlier post struck a raw nerve with one or two.

Never mind, only a year to go to elections, then all will be put out of their misery. I thought Taxcinda was Jabcinda now. You should see the amount of tax raising in the UK and Oz post pandemic, despite their Tory governments! Have they had an increase in food parcel demand? I guess firefighters, nurses and teachers should be happy with thanks instead of salary increases, then Jacinda won’t need to increase taxes to pay them more.

[tim23]

Been out preparing food parcels.

For some reason, demand has escalated since Taxcinda has been on the throne.

My earlier post struck a raw nerve with one or two.

Never mind, only a year to go to elections, then all will be put out of their misery.

Stop embarrassing yourself and as far as I know there is only one election- I’m guessing you would have referred to John Key as John Keys😀

[tim23]

Well please list the Key governments achievements if you will?
I’m guessing Panda 🐼 that your google search produced a nil return?

[Panda-NZ-]

I was referring to Getty's post but it could have equally been for balance.

Both of these folks only have a list of complaints with no solutions on offer.

[Getty]

I was referring to Getty's post but it could have equally been for balance.

Both of these folks only have a list of complaints with no solutions.
I beg your pardon.

Your Comrade Cinder provided her list of solutions, and many voters fell for it.
And now she and her motley crew have shown their incompetence, you expect me to remain silent.

Even worse, you want me to provide solutions to her mess, and I'm not even on the payroll!.

Are you?

[Baa_Baa]

I beg your pardon.

Your Comrade Cinder provided her list of solutions, and many voters fell for it.
And now she and her motley crew have shown their incompetence, you expect me to remain silent.

Even worse, you want me to provide solutions to her mess, and I'm not even on the payroll!.

Are you?

Hobsons choice unfortunately, Labour have made everything so much worse in their 5 of 6 years in government, that a new incoming new government has little chance of rectifying the situation in the first term they get. It's such a mess and so much worse than 2017. Voters really have only one question, it's "are things better now than when the current government were voted in". The answer to that is painfully obvious, no it isn't better, it's much worse.

[Panda-NZ-]

How are the two wealthy elite males dave & lux going to fix things?

What's their secret to responding to international issues (other than having a considerably worse coronavirus response).

[tim23]

I beg your pardon.

Your Comrade Cinder provided her list of solutions, and many voters fell for it.
And now she and her motley crew have shown their incompetence, you expect me to remain silent.

Even worse, you want me to provide solutions to her mess, and I'm not even on the payroll!.

Are you?

If you posted without referring to the PM so disrespectfully you might start to establish an ounce of credibility but you continue to be plain silly.

[Getty]

[QUOTE=Panda-NZ-;972607]How are the two rich males dave & lux going to fix things?
Rich males eh?

Some penis envy?

Shows they know how to get things done, rather than just how to write 2F 1C on a square of paper.

[Getty]

If you posted without referring to the PM so disrespectfully you might start to establish an ounce of credibility but you continue to be plain silly.

You have made it clear you are smitten and besotted with Jacinda.

It affects your objectivity, to understand not everyone feels the same way.

When she's gone, you may have to buy a doll.

You are in denial regarding her passion for using the
title Comrade.
I'm respecting it.

[Panda-NZ-]

Shows they know how to get things done, rather than just how to write 2F 1C on a square of paper.

Get things done such as roll back women's rights to the 18th century.

Women can't afford to take the risk on these two.

[Getty]

Get things done such as roll back women's rights to the 18th century.

Women can't afford to take the risk on these two.
Big allegation.

Can you substantiate it?

[Bjauck]

Some penis envy?

Shows they know how to get things done, rather than just how to write 2F 1C on a square of paper. I must admit I have had some difficulty understanding your posts until I realised I needed to read them through the lens of the 1960's era Mad Men drama.

[Getty]

I must admit I have had some difficulty understanding your posts until I realised I needed to read them through the lens of the 1960's era Mad Men drama.

If that works for you, keep doing it.

2F 1C means 2 fish, 1 scoop of chips in translation.
That's the skill set Jacinda provides from her work experience.

[Balance]

If that works for you, keep doing it.

2F 1C means 2 fish, 1 scoop of chips in translation.

Which is the net sum total of the contribution of Ardern & her government to NZ in 5 years.

2F 1C indeed!

[tim23]

[QUOTE=Panda-NZ-;972607]How are the two rich males dave & lux going to fix things?
Rich males eh?

Some penis envy?

Shows they know how to get things done, rather than just how to write 2F 1C on a square of paper.
You don’t know if they can get things done - they are in the opposition!

[Getty]

[QUOTE=Getty;972615]
You don’t know if they can get things done - they are in the opposition!
Getting things done was recognition of their ability to at least enrich themselves and others along the way, much to Pandas disappointment and envy.

Contrasted to Jacinda's skills in raising the cholesterol levels in her community!

[nztx]

Get things done such as roll back women's rights to the 18th century.

Women can't afford to take the risk on these two.

18th or 19th century ? ;)

Is the top story still a bit water logged ? :)

[tim23]

[QUOTE=tim23;972647]
Getting things done was recognition of their ability to at least enrich themselves and others along the way, much to Pandas disappointment and envy.

Contrasted to Jacinda's skills in raising the cholesterol levels in her community!

But they haven’t done anything yet - they may not get the chance 😀

[Balance]

Ram raids - up 400%

Children sleeping in cars and tents - up 300%

Net sum total of Ardern's promises summarized above.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1646594748412-T3UQTIGVD5TOS3N1H9JC/promises.jpg?format=500w

[Balance]

Unsurprisingly, Comrade Ardern is taking a leaf from Putin’s book of suppression and state control :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300672123/how-laws-to-strengthen-child-protection-led-to-division-distrust-and-accusations-of-an-autocracy

“It’s Putinesque,” says Professor Jonathan Boston, the chair of Victoria University’s School of Government. “It’s hard to read what’s happened in relation to the Office of the Children’s Commissioner without the sense that a powerful voice was inconvenient for the government. That clearly led to an initiative to mute it.

“If you respond negatively to criticism by a crown entity and essentially mute that entity, that’s consistent with what Vladimir Putin would do. You hear criticism of yourself, you don’t like it, and you get rid of it. It is seriously concerning.”

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1639023232775-228C5VSN7DY3H9RGP0K1/busts.jpg?format=500w

[Balance]

Cost of living payments - auditor general lashes Ardern & her team of incompetents for being irresponsible and callous with taxpayers’ funds.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/08/cost-of-living-payment-auditor-general-raises-major-concerns-over-rollout.html

[777]

Showing their true intentions

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/129728101/tax-grab-government-plans-to-levy-gst-of-225-million-each-year-on-kiwisaver

[dobby41]

Showing their true intentions

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/129728101/tax-grab-government-plans-to-levy-gst-of-225-million-each-year-on-kiwisaver

Interesting - I always thought that GST wasn't charged on Financial Services but it appears that this isn't the case - some services attract GST now.
So maybe some of the fee would be taxed and some not?
From IRD
Financial planning fees subject to GST
Services relating to initial planning fees, monitoring fees, evaluation fees and replanning fees.

Financial planning fees not subject to GST
Services relating to implementation fees, administration fees and switching fees exempt from GST.

[Balance]

Showing their true intentions

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/129728101/tax-grab-government-plans-to-levy-gst-of-225-million-each-year-on-kiwisaver

Tax and spend wastefully.

Comrade Ardern in full cry.

Disgusting woman.

[Bjauck]

Interesting - I always thought that GST wasn't charged on Financial Services but it appears that this isn't the case - some services attract GST now.
So maybe some of the fee would be taxed and some not?
From IRD
Financial planning fees subject to GST
Services relating to initial planning fees, monitoring fees, evaluation fees and replanning fees.

Financial planning fees not subject to GST
Services relating to implementation fees, administration fees and switching fees exempt from GST. NZ has one of the most heavily taxed pension schemes. Now Labour wants to tax it further by ensuring gst on fees is levied on top of taxed contributions and in addition to PIE tax levied. Why don’t they exempt KiwiSaver as it has locked in savings, that members are not free to withdraw until retirement age. The government has a captive target investor base, that cannot escape these KiwiSaver tax changes, except by reducing their future contributions.

[Baa_Baa]

Read my lips, no new taxes, says Labour (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96852721/read-my-lips-no-new-taxes-says-labour)

Oh wait, didn't mean not taxing your retirement fund (http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/5/406583)

[Ricky-bobby]

Everything they touch, they make so much worse. Please stop.

[ynot]

Everything they touch, they make so much worse. Please stop.

What have we done to deserve such incompetence. I really used to think we had a few thinkers amongst us. obviously not.

[justakiwi]

The next election is going to be telling. I voted Labour last time round - I have been happy with some of their decisions, but less so with others. Right now, I have no desire to vote for any of the three main parties. Talking with work colleagues and friends, it seems many people feel the same way. National and ACT spend 99.9% of their time repeating their criticisms of Labour. Everything that comes out of their mouths is about Labour, not about their own policies or what they propose to do to "fix" anything. Labour is not much better in the policy department but at least they are not simply focused on dissing their competition.

At the rate things are going, we may very well find that Labour wins votes by sheer default - because none of them have shown why they deserve our vote. Either that, or it will be the worst voter turnout yet, as people will just throw their hands up and say "nobody to vote for, won't bother voting." I have always voted and that won't change, but if things don't improve soon, in terms of election campaigning/presentation of policy/solutions, voters are going to find themselves in a dilemma.

[Balance]

Ardern showing her colours as usual - as long as it’s Maori, it’s all ok.

Show some spine, you disgusting vote seeking clueless and useless spin mistress.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/473779/davidson-s-bittersweet-rebellion-over-te-reo-maori?fbclid=IwAR0PdZWbBOUQnSIQIdW1APdrbimIsnanCXT mQQwyx6hPhrBtkBoiCjSiWRs

[ynot]

The next election is going to be telling. I voted Labour last time round - I have been happy with some of their decisions, but less so with others. Right now, I have no desire to vote for any of the three main parties. Talking with work colleagues and friends, it seems many people feel the same way. National and ACT spend 99.9% of their time repeating their criticisms of Labour. Everything that comes out of their mouths is about Labour, not about their own policies or what they propose to do to "fix" anything. Labour is not much better in the policy department but at least they are not simply focused on dissing their competition.

At the rate things are going, we may very well find that Labour wins votes by sheer default - because none of them have shown why they deserve our vote. Either that, or it will be the worst voter turnout yet, as people will just throw their hands up and say "nobody to vote for, won't bother voting." I have always voted and that won't change, but if things don't improve soon, in terms of election campaigning/presentation of policy/solutions, voters are going to find themselves in a dilemma.

Only way I see it is Labour must go no matter what, I do not care who beats them, good, bad, I don't care. The country can not absorb another round of this incompetence.

[Baa_Baa]

The next election is going to be telling. I voted Labour last time round - I have been happy with some of their decisions, but less so with others. Right now, I have no desire to vote for any of the three main parties. Talking with work colleagues and friends, it seems many people feel the same way. National and ACT spend 99.9% of their time repeating their criticisms of Labour. Everything that comes out of their mouths is about Labour, not about their own policies or what they propose to do to "fix" anything. Labour is not much better in the policy department but at least they are not simply focused on dissing their competition.

At the rate things are going, we may very well find that Labour wins votes by sheer default - because none of them have shown why they deserve our vote. Either that, or it will be the worst voter turnout yet, as people will just throw their hands up and say "nobody to vote for, won't bother voting." I have always voted and that won't change, but if things don't improve soon, in terms of election campaigning/presentation of policy/solutions, voters are going to find themselves in a dilemma.

I think you're bang on there justakiwi, at this stage in the run up to next years election, the National and ACT party's are more focused on holding the government to account without much elaboration on their own policies; well, as far as the media reporting goes anyway. But the media don't focus on party policies at this early stage leading into an election year, so it's up to us to seek out the party policies ourselves and see what resonates.

Check these out.

https://www.labour.org.nz/policy

https://www.act.org.nz/policies

https://www.national.org.nz/priorities

TBH, I find them all to be a bit dry and 'promotional' and leave me feeling skeptical. The thing I've learned from the current government, and reflecting on previous governments, is that regardless of what they say and aspire to, ultimately it comes down to being realistic about what they can and will do, what they can actually achieve. And few governments in history have a record of significant achievement on any of the policy themes that they all advocate. You'll notice their policy themes are all basically very similar, it's just the approach to implementing them that differs.

The other awkward thing is they all seem to lie. Or more kindly put, change their minds. As they discover that their ambitious well meaning and sounding policies are in fact not realistic or achievable in a term of government, they will all renege, revise, alter, change their policies. The current government has a litany of what on the surface appear to be blatant lies, whereas in reality it was just overly optimistic or ambitious policy that could never be implemented by any government in their term. That promise however fragile was enough, combined with the leaders undoubted charisma, to convince a large majority of people to vote for them.

[Crypto Crude]

The next election is going to be telling. I voted Labour last time round - I have been happy with some of their decisions, but less so with others. Right now, I have no desire to vote for any of the three main parties. Talking with work colleagues and friends, it seems many people feel the same way. National and ACT spend 99.9% of their time repeating their criticisms of Labour. Everything that comes out of their mouths is about Labour, not about their own policies or what they propose to do to "fix" anything. Labour is not much better in the policy department but at least they are not simply focused on dissing their competition.

At the rate things are going, we may very well find that Labour wins votes by sheer default - because none of them have shown why they deserve our vote. Either that, or it will be the worst voter turnout yet, as people will just throw their hands up and say "nobody to vote for, won't bother voting." I have always voted and that won't change, but if things don't improve soon, in terms of election campaigning/presentation of policy/solutions, voters are going to find themselves in a dilemma.


No doubt you will find a way to bomb us a vote...
As unfortunate as it is Brian Tamaki is the only candidate who is offering our freedoms from mandates and all the madness going on...
... I am not religious at all... I am anti it...
But the person who offers me freedom will get my vote and I don't care who they are...

[tim23]

No doubt you will find a way to bomb us a vote...
As unfortunate as it is Brian Tamaki is the only candidate who is offering our freedoms from mandates and all the madness going on...
... I am not religious at all... I am anti it...
But the person who offers me freedom will get my vote and I don't care who they are...
This is one of the most free countries in the world - as soon as you give Tamaki am ounce of credibility you lose all of yours.

[ynot]

No doubt you will find a way to bomb us a vote...
As unfortunate as it is Brian Tamaki is the only candidate who is offering our freedoms from mandates and all the madness going on...
... I am not religious at all... I am anti it...
But the person who offers me freedom will get my vote and I don't care who they are...

As much as I don't like Tamaki, hypothetically, It would be interesting to see how he would go running the country. How could he be any worst than the current rabble. This is not to say I have any belief in his integrity.

[ynot]

This is one of the most free countries in the world -

Not if the wicked witch had her way.

[tim23]

Not if the wicked witch had her way.
Just when I thought you couldn’t get any sillier - you just did with another embarrassing post,

[Balance]

Not if the wicked witch had her way.

Spinning through the air with her web of deceit and lies.

[justakiwi]

You think what he is offering is freedom????
You’re an even bigger idiot than I thought.


No doubt you will find a way to bomb us a vote...
As unfortunate as it is Brian Tamaki is the only candidate who is offering our freedoms from mandates and all the madness going on...
... I am not religious at all... I am anti it...
But the person who offers me freedom will get my vote and I don't care who they are...

[Crypto Crude]

Man,
Apparently he is the first person in the world to take a government to court over breach of human rights over these covid mandates....he went to jail for free speech...
There is a lot of support for our freedoms...he spoke on Radio I didn't hear it but a lot of people are awoken...
You might not want freedom you are well happy with it.. but many people aren't...
The person who gives us freedom gets my vote and I don't care who they are...

[ynot]

Free and open press.

[Bjauck]

No doubt you will find a way to bomb us a vote...
As unfortunate as it is Brian Tamaki is the only candidate who is offering our freedoms from mandates and all the madness going on...
... I am not religious at all... I am anti it...
But the person who offers me freedom will get my vote and I don't care who they are... Freedom! (unless you are female, gay or a moslem for a start?)

[Joshuatree]

Man,
Apparently he is the first person in the world to take a government to court over breach of human rights over these covid mandates....he went to jail for free speech...
There is a lot of support for our freedoms...he spoke on Radio I didn't hear it but a lot of people are awoken...
You might not want freedom you are well happy with it.. but many people aren't...
The person who gives us freedom gets my vote and I don't care who they are...

I know what Freedom means to you
"Down With Responsibility"

[Aaron]

Showing their true intentions

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/129728101/tax-grab-government-plans-to-levy-gst-of-225-million-each-year-on-kiwisaver

It made the front page of the herald. I came here for a look expecting to see outrage and have a laugh but pretty muted.

Are financial services exempt from GST or not? I think lawyers stopped worrying about it a long time ago as part of the house sale relates to the mortgage and financial services.

It would be funny to see NZ up in arms over this when they meekly accept GST on food and other basics that most countries exempt in the interest of fairness. My personal view is to keep it simple and not have the exemptions but if we need a tax cut then drop GST back to 12.5% rather than mucking around with exemptions.

As far as GST on the fees go my only question would be are the fees a passive fund manager charge, reasonable. I think in many cases it is based on a percentage of the capital invested. This seems odd as buying and selling 100 or 1,000,000 shares takes the same effort and in a passive fund no thought required other than the weighting of the shares held. Maybe people with large kiwisaver funds subsidies the small ones.

The media trying desperately to make another mountain out of a mole hill

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/300675186/gst-on-kiwisaver-fees-backlash-shows-how-passionate-savers-are

A resolute Chris Luxon prepared to make a stand against unfair retirement tax. What a hero and man of the people no doubt an action plan will be in place after the elections. What about exemptions for basic foodstuffs Chris or dropping the regressive GST tax back to 12.5% instead of dropping the top rates on a progressive income tax?? Would that be fair?? maybe not as he does not suggest this. Or are bottom feeders not part of his voter base so not given consideration.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/kiwisaver-christopher-luxon-says-national-will-push-to-stop-retirement-tax/KQVA7VBQLMIM6ODEUCXCG2PGDI/

[dobby41]

Apparently he is the first person in the world to take a government to court over breach of human rights over these covid mandates....he went to jail for free speech...


Tamaki went to jail because he kept breaking the conditions of his bail!

[fungus pudding]

Honesty is the worst policy - when electioneering.

14112

[dobby41]

It made the front page of the herald. I came here for a look expecting to see outrage and have a laugh but pretty muted.

Are financial services exempt from GST or not? I think lawyers stopped worrying about it a long time ago as part of the house sale relates to the mortgage and financial services.

It would be funny to see NZ up in arms over this when they meekly accept GST on food and other basics that most countries exempt in the interest of fairness. My personal view is to keep it simple and not have the exemptions but if we need a tax cut then drop GST back to 12.5% rather than mucking around with exemptions.

As far as GST on the fees go my only question would be are the fees a passive fund manager charge, reasonable. I think in many cases it is based on a percentage of the capital invested. This seems odd as buying and selling 100 or 1,000,000 shares takes the same effort and in a passive fund no thought required other than the weighting of the shares held. Maybe people with large kiwisaver funds subsidies the small ones.

The media trying desperately to make another mountain out of a mole hill

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/300675186/gst-on-kiwisaver-fees-backlash-shows-how-passionate-savers-are

A resolute Chris Luxon prepared to make a stand against unfair retirement tax. What a hero and man of the people no doubt an action plan will be in place after the elections. What about exemptions for basic foodstuffs Chris or dropping the regressive GST tax back to 12.5% instead of dropping the top rates on a progressive income tax?? Would that be fair?? maybe not as he does not suggest this. Or are bottom feeders not part of his voter base so not given consideration.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/kiwisaver-christopher-luxon-says-national-will-push-to-stop-retirement-tax/KQVA7VBQLMIM6ODEUCXCG2PGDI/

I posted what is and isn't exempt for financial services.
As for National - a bit rich since they removed the kickstart (2015) and made employer contributions taxable (2012).
This would have had a much bigger impact on members' balances.

Listening to talkback people are confused and most seem to think that the GST is on their balances rather than just the fees.

As for GST on food - other countries look at our system as much easier to implement. No GST on basic food - a bread roll is basic, a filled one isn't ...etc

[Balance]

I posted what is and isn't exempt for financial services.
As for National - a bit rich since they removed the kickstart (2015) and made employer contributions taxable (2012).
This would have had a much bigger impact on members' balances.

Listening to talkback people are confused and most seem to think that the GST is on their balances rather than just the fees.

As for GST on food - other countries look at our system as much easier to implement. No GST on basic food - a bread roll is basic, a filled one isn't ...etc

Trying to deflect as usual.

No new taxes!!

Most open & transparent government ever.

100,000 Kiwibuild homes!

No children living in cars & tents.

More!

More!

[Bjauck]

I posted what is and isn't exempt for financial services.
As for National - a bit rich since they removed the kickstart (2015) and made employer contributions taxable (2012).
This would have had a much bigger impact on members' balances.

Listening to talkback people are confused and most seem to think that the GST is on their balances rather than just the fees.

As for GST on food - other countries look at our system as much easier to implement. No GST on basic food - a bread roll is basic, a filled one isn't ...etc
A simple system is not necessarily a fair system. Lack of a income tax-free thresh-hold and GST on basics has led to a web of tax rebates, supplements and benefits instead.

it would not be difficult to exempt the KiwiSaver pension scheme fees.

[westerly]

Free and open press.

The police were on to it. https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/06/20/meet-ralph-babet-clive-palmer-acolyte-and-maybe-victorias-newest-senator/

westerly

[ynot]

The police were on to it. https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/06/20/meet-ralph-babet-clive-palmer-acolyte-and-maybe-victorias-newest-senator/

westerly

So the police (Jacinda) controls who can and can not express their views in an open democracy.

[dobby41]

The police were on to it. https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/06/20/meet-ralph-babet-clive-palmer-acolyte-and-maybe-victorias-newest-senator/

westerly


So the police (Jacinda) controls who can and can not express their views in an open democracy.

What has some Aussie Senator (right wing) got to do with Jacinda?

[dobby41]

A simple system is not necessarily a fair system. Lack of a income tax-free thresh-hold and GST on basics has led to a web of tax rebates, supplements and benefits instead.

it would not be difficult to exempt the KiwiSaver pension scheme fees.

A simple system is good though!
As for GST on Kiwisaver fees - some small funds had it already - could have easily made them exempt.
Though, why single out KS and leave it on other Managed Funds?

[777]

A simple system is good though!
As for GST on Kiwisaver fees - some small funds had it already - could have easily made them exempt.
Though, why single out KS and leave it on other Managed Funds?

I think it includes all Managed Funds but the media only focus on Kiwisaver.

[777]

Backlash was too much for them...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/129739479/government-abandons-kiwisaver-gst-tax-grab

[Aaron]

Backlash was too much for them...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/129739479/government-abandons-kiwisaver-gst-tax-grab

Totally gutless, pandering to media hype and popular opinion. No way I could vote for a govt that shifts policy with every outburst from a sensationalist media, it is sickening. Managed funds industry probably the big winner, although Kiwisaver was a massive gift bestowed upon them by Michael Cullen.

That said I agree with saving for your retirement I just wonder how much the managed funds industry makes out of it (1% of everything invested every year must add up over time, especially as Kiwisaver balances grow). maybe it is not much but I suspect they are doing OK.

Most of their performance is taken care of by Adrian at the RBNZ. More money anyone?? Lower rates perhaps?? Although I guess that hammers the term deposits and bond portion of the portfolios.

[whatsup]

Backlash was too much for them...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/129739479/government-abandons-kiwisaver-gst-tax-grab

At last a ounce of common sense, ( where did that come from- must have been recommended by a consultant ) ?

[Bjauck]

A simple system is good though!
As for GST on Kiwisaver fees - some small funds had it already - could have easily made them exempt.
Though, why single out KS and leave it on other Managed Funds?
KiwiSaver is a pension scheme and locked in until retirement age with few exceptions - a managed fund enables withdrawals.

[Bjauck]

Totally gutless, pandering to media hype and popular opinion. No way I could vote for a govt that shifts policy with every outburst from a sensationalist media…
Yep. It was the same with a CGT. This government’s policies are like sand dunes in a storm, apart from its initial Covid management.

[Getty]

Yep. It was the same with a CGT. This government’s policies are like sand dunes in a storm, apart from its initial Covid management.

Yep, to be expected when their house is built on sand, and they are all at sea.

[Blue Skies]

Some here sound more outraged over the withdrawal of the GST charge on the fees charged by foreign owned Kiwisaver Fund providers, to put them on the same footing as NZ managed Kiwisaver Fund providers, than the deliberate cynical misrepresentation of this as a tax on peoples retirement savings by Willis & Luxon.

Luxon & Willis achieved exactly what they wanted which was for people to mistakenly think their retirement savings were going to be taxed, rather than GST applied to the 1.5% fees of foreign owned Fund Providers.

We are really starting to venture a step closer to Trump/Republican territory when this group of National MP's so vigorously misrepresent things for political gain.
Talkback was flooded with stressed people thinking a new GST of 15% was going to be applied to their savings!

If they genuinely felt it justified, Luxon & Willis could easily have argued the case for the exemption to remain, but instead chose to misrepresent it to voters.
Have we lost so much trust in National that deceptions hardly register anymore, anything goes ?

[Panda-NZ-]

Some here sound more outraged over the withdrawal of the GST charge on the fees charged by foreign owned Kiwisaver Fund providers, to put them on the same footing as NZ managed Kiwisaver Fund providers, than the deliberate cynical misrepresentation of this as a tax on peoples retirement savings by Willis & Luxon.

They're happy with the Australian banks taking 1% every year.

Then again a board position at one of them is a national MPs retirement plan.

[justakiwi]

Well said! I've spent the best part of the last hour posting on various Facebook pages, trying to explain this to numerous people, who are panicking, upset, and threatening to pull out of or stop contributing to their KiwiSaver. I get that most of these people have not taken the time to fully understand how KiwiSaver works, but regardless of that, National exploited the situation intentionally. As you said "vigorously misrepresenting things for political gain."

Anything does not go for this voter. Up until now I have maintained an open mind in terms of who might be worthy of my vote. National just lost their spot on my list for this dirty play. Would take an absolute miracle for me to consider them now. As I said in another post, at the rate things are going, Labour will get back in by default because the other parties are slowly digging themselves an election grave.



Some here sound more outraged over the withdrawal of the GST charge on the fees charged by foreign owned Kiwisaver Fund providers, to put them on the same footing as NZ managed Kiwisaver Fund providers, than the deliberate cynical misrepresentation of this as a tax on peoples retirement savings by Willis & Luxon.

Luxon & Willis achieved exactly what they wanted which was for people to mistakenly think their retirement savings were going to be taxed, rather than GST applied to the 1.5% fees of foreign owned Fund Providers.

We are really starting to venture a step closer to Trump/Republican territory when this group of National MP's so vigorously misrepresent things for political gain.
Talkback was flooded with stressed people thinking a new GST of 15% was going to be applied to their savings!

If they genuinely felt it justified, Luxon & Willis could easily have argued the case for the exemption to remain, but instead chose to misrepresent it to voters.
Have we lost so much trust in National that deceptions hardly register anymore, anything goes ?

[whatsup]

They're happy with the Australian banks taking 1% every year.

Then again a board position at one of them is a national MPs retirement plan.

Dont forget that it was the David Lange Labor govt that SOLD THE BNZ to the Australian bank !!

[whatsup]

Dont forget that it was the David Lange Labor govt that SOLD THE BNZ to the Australian bank !!

Gee you wet behind the ears labor keyboard hacks dont know your history, you had better bone up !

[dobby41]

Backlash was too much for them...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/129739479/government-abandons-kiwisaver-gst-tax-grab


Totally gutless, pandering to media hype and popular opinion. No way I could vote for a govt that shifts policy with every outburst from a sensationalist media, it is sickening. Managed funds industry probably the big winner, although Kiwisaver was a massive gift bestowed upon them by Michael Cullen.

That said I agree with saving for your retirement I just wonder how much the managed funds industry makes out of it (1% of everything invested every year must add up over time, especially as Kiwisaver balances grow). maybe it is not much but I suspect they are doing OK.


Interesting - if they listen to the people it is backpedaling, if they don't listen it is being arrogant.
Governments never win.

Aaron - you won't be voting for National either then - Luxon changes with the wind.
Not all funds are 1% but they make plenty (though they plead poverty at every turn).

I still suspect that much of the noise was because people didn't understand that the GST was only on the fees rather than what they put in (that's certainly what I heard people say on talkback for the short time I listened).

[dobby41]

Backlash was too much for them...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/129739479/government-abandons-kiwisaver-gst-tax-grab


KiwiSaver is a pension scheme and locked in until retirement age with few exceptions - a managed fund enables withdrawals.

Fees for investment are still fees either way.
I can see both sides in this - easier just not to do it especially with National being the way they are (deduct tax from employer contributions etc).

[dobby41]

Backlash was too much for them...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/129739479/government-abandons-kiwisaver-gst-tax-grab


Dont forget that it was the David Lange Labor govt that SOLD THE BNZ to the Australian bank !!


Gee you wet behind the ears labor keyboard hacks dont know your history, you had better bone up !

You often have an issue with your history.
National harp on that GST would steal people's retirement money but are happy to tax the employer contribution.
And they removed the $1k kickstart.
They have done more to affect peoples future balances than a bit of GST.

[dobby41]

I forgot to mention - National also halved the Government contribition.
I suspect they'd drop contributions entirely if they could - they seem to do all they can to disrupt it.
So National is being a bit 2 faced to complain about the GST - especially as the work started under National.

[Bjauck]

Some here sound more outraged over the withdrawal of the GST charge on the fees charged by foreign owned Kiwisaver Fund providers, to put them on the same footing as NZ managed Kiwisaver Fund providers, than the deliberate cynical misrepresentation of this as a tax on peoples retirement savings by Willis & Luxon.

Luxon & Willis achieved exactly what they wanted which was for people to mistakenly think their retirement savings were going to be taxed, rather than GST applied to the 1.5% fees of foreign owned Fund Providers.

We are really starting to venture a step closer to Trump/Republican territory when this group of National MP's so vigorously misrepresent things for political gain.
Talkback was flooded with stressed people thinking a new GST of 15% was going to be applied to their savings!

If they genuinely felt it justified, Luxon & Willis could easily have argued the case for the exemption to remain, but instead chose to misrepresent it to voters.
Have we lost so much trust in National that deceptions hardly register anymore, anything goes ?
Quite ironic for National to be the white knight over this when they have done so much to undermine KiwiSaver/pension schemes over the years. If they had had their way NZers would be even more dependent on leveraged real estate, which would have benefited the big Oz mortgage suppliers even more.

Some Kiwis have had lots of tax-free housing capital gains off the back of leveraging off the real estate mortgages supplied by Aussie Banks. The extra gst on KiwiSaver fees would have been paid by the Kiwi KiwiSaver members. KiwiSaver is a side-show.

It is easier to let the current circus continue for an influential section of the electorate than for both Nat or Lab to undertake difficult, and unpopular with a vociferous segment of the elctorate, systemic fiscal reform.

The items I read did not indicate that Luxon had misrepresented the proposals on gst (now ditched.)
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/473800/christopher-luxon-accuses-govt-of-tax-grab-over-kiwisaver-fees-plan

[Balance]

Ardern & the indoctrinated posters here thrashing around - trying to blame all & sundry on yet stuff up by Labour.

Very very very satisfying. 🕺💃🏻

[777]

You often have an issue with your history.
National harp on that GST would steal people's retirement money but are happy to tax the employer contribution.
And they removed the $1k kickstart.
They have done more to affect peoples future balances than a bit of GST.

The change in tax on employer contributions aligned KiwiSaver with other superannuation schemes that were taxed.

The initial $1,000 removal was not warranted in my opinion.

[whatsup]

I forgot to mention - National also halved the Government contribition.
I suspect they'd drop contributions entirely if they could - they seem to do all they can to disrupt it.
So National is being a bit 2 faced to complain about the GST - especially as the work started under National.

Jeesus dobby dont you know your history, the reason as J K said at the time was that the majority of people that were contributing to the Kiwisaving $1000.00 contribution which was matched by the govt of the day were the so called "wealthy " his rational was that they could well afford that and didnt see why the govt should subsidize them, if they were really interested in contributing then they could contribute more that the $500.00 , sadly most of them didnt take up his suggestion.

[Panda-NZ-]

Jeesus dobby dont you know your history, the reason as J K said at the time was that the majority of people that were contributing to the Kiwisaving $1000.00 contribution which was matched by the govt of the day were the so called "wealthy " his rational was that they could well afford that and didnt see why the govt should subsidize them, if they were really interested in contributing then they could contribute more that the $500.00 , sadly most of them didnt take up his suggestion.

Then means test it.
Most NZers were made worse off from their changes.

National it seems only wants the wealthy to have retirement savings.

[dobby41]

The change in tax on employer contributions aligned KiwiSaver with other superannuation schemes that were taxed.

The initial $1,000 removal was not warranted in my opinion.

By the same token GST on Kiwisaver fees created an alignment - not it doesn't.
No mention of the halving of the Government contribution by National?

[777]

By the same token GST on Kiwisaver fees created an alignment - not it doesn't.
No mention of the halving of the Government contribution by National?=

You hadn't noted that in your posting that I replied to but perhaps that contribution should have slowly abated over about 10 years. It is not the Government contributing, it is the taxpayer.

[dobby41]

Jeesus dobby dont you know your history, the reason as J K said at the time was that the majority of people that were contributing to the Kiwisaving $1000.00 contribution which was matched by the govt of the day were the so called "wealthy " his rational was that they could well afford that and didnt see why the govt should subsidize them, if they were really interested in contributing then they could contribute more that the $500.00 , sadly most of them didnt take up his suggestion.

That may be what JK said but it doesn't make it a fact.
The fact is that they reduced the contribution which would be very handy now.
On the average wage now (something like $56k which isn't wealthy) the 3% contribution is $1800 - well over the $1k but they still only get $500.
National doesn't really want to encourage KS!

[whatsup]

That may be what JK said but it doesn't make it a fact.
The fact is that they reduced the contribution which would be very handy now.
On the average wage now (something like $56k which isn't wealthy) the 3% contribution is $1800 - well over the $1k but they still only get $500.
National doesn't really want to encourage KS!

You dont get it do you, the wealthy dont need the govt subsidy unfortunately its a catch all situation !!

[fungus pudding]

You dont get it do you, the wealthy dont need the govt subsidy unfortunately its a catch all situation !!

Exactly - it was obvious most were only in for tthe top up bonus. I certainly was but ran a mile when that stopped.

[ynot]

Ardern backed into a corner showing her true colours today in parliament today. Love it.

[tim23]

KiwiSaver is a pension scheme and locked in until retirement age with few exceptions - a managed fund enables withdrawals.

KS is also a significant home ownership scheme.

[tim23]

Quite ironic for National to be the white knight over this when they have done so much to undermine KiwiSaver/pension schemes over the years. If they had had their way NZers would be even more dependent on leveraged real estate, which would have benefited the big Oz mortgage suppliers even more.

Some Kiwis have had lots of tax-free housing capital gains off the back of leveraging off the real estate mortgages supplied by Aussie Banks. The extra gst on KiwiSaver fees would have been paid by the Kiwi KiwiSaver members. KiwiSaver is a side-show.

It is easier to let the current circus continue for an influential section of the electorate than for both Nat or Lab to undertake difficult, and unpopular with a vociferous segment of the elctorate, systemic fiscal reform.

The items I read did not indicate that Luxon had misrepresented the proposals on gst (now ditched.)
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/473800/christopher-luxon-accuses-govt-of-tax-grab-over-kiwisaver-fees-plan
One of Michael Cullens legacy projects and to think National bagged it just like they did in 75 when they abolished a Labour super scheme and let’s not forget they stopped contributing to the Cullen fund and they reckon they can run the economy better?

[Balance]

Have to laugh at the FASTEST U-TURN in the history of NZ by a government - how incompetent can Ardern & David Parker be?

First, they said that there was extensive consultation before putting in the legislation to impose GST on Kiwisaver fees.

And the smaller Kiwisaver providers supported the legislation.

Now, they are saying that smaller Kiwisaver providers oppose the implementation!

As usual, Ardern's left foot does not know what her right spinning brain is doing or more to the point, she is caught telling fibs again.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/kiwisaver-u-turn-tax-proposal-for-fees-scrapped-after-opposition/NKMH6477OR7QGKTRY2XMAOG64I/

"During extensive consultation views were mixed on the merits of the technical change. The large companies profiting from the current set-up were opposed to the change, while smaller providers were more supportive of the change. This was because these providers who did charge the full GST on their service fees faced unfair competition from the bigger players.

"However, since the announcement it has become clear that smaller providers now oppose it too," Parker said.

[Balance]

And what is emerging from the TV1 & TV3 coverage tonight of the FASTEST government U-TURN in the history of NZ is :

Ardern & Parker tried to sneak the GST on Kiwisaver fees through but got caught.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1633465514315-DX8KELH27NXLGFNWYBGQ/turnarounds.jpg?format=300w

[Baa_Baa]

What actually happened these past 24 hours goes right to the heart of trust in Labour, trust that they have our best interests at heart, trust that they are transparent, trust that they are telling the truth, trust that they are acting in good faith for all the people. That trust was sorely tested by an ill thought out tax grab on NZ'rs retirement savings!

But they got caught out in the most embarrassing turnarounds ever in the history of NZ government! Can't be trusted is the worst indictment for any government, can't be trusted goes to the core of voters needs of a government. Tried to sneak a new tax on KS fees into the law without proper consultation, exploiting their majority in parliament, only to smash headlong into a tirade of objections across multiple factions of government, business, population.

Swallowing a dead rat will not absolve Labour of the massive loss of trust they brought upon themselves today.

[Balance]

What actually happened these past 24 hours goes right to the heart of trust in Labour, trust that they have our best interests at heart, trust that they are transparent, trust that they are telling the truth, trust that they are acting in good faith for all the people. That trust was sorely tested by an ill thought out tax grab on NZ'rs retirement savings!

But they got caught out in the most embarrassing turnarounds ever in the history of NZ government! Can't be trusted is the worst indictment for any government, can't be trusted goes to the core of voters needs of a government. Tried to sneak a new tax on KS fees into the law without proper consultation, exploiting their majority in parliament, only to smash headlong into a tirade of objections across multiple factions of government, business, population.

Swallowing a dead rat will not absolve Labour of the massive loss of trust they brought upon themselves today.

Running for cover - Ardern, Robertson & Parker :

"When Willis sought to interrogate Finance Minister Grant Robertson on the backdown in the House, leader of the House Chris Hipkins intervened, noting the matter was outside Robertson's portfolio - a marginal call, as Parker had, minutes earlier, said both Robertson and himself had been involved in the backdown. Parker said the backdown was the decision of "[him]self and the Minister of Finance, as was the decision to put them in in the first place".

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/n3uvAhywfLfHK19OfuI3vFQ24gc=/1440x900/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/J5PXTWLBZHYDFLVKV4SCCKYY2Q.jpg

Photo of the three stooges swallowing the dead rat : :t_up:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/ZufL9CVw0pamYaikuvzptHxkNbE=/1440x810/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/QPXYNMDILBKZMRRZXSXLZYXMEU.jpg

[Bjauck]

KS is also a significant home ownership scheme. One of the exceptions along with hardship. I think the first home ownership withdrawal option is a reason why some countries don't recognise Kiwisaver as a proper pension scheme to which transfers can be made without their being treated as a withdrawal.

However you are right. The Kiwisaver retirement scheme (Inland revenue describes Kiwisaver for individuals as a savings scheme for retirement) does help deliver up to (mostly) Australian owned institutions some Kiwisaver members to sign up to even bigger mortgages for a first home. Perhaps the way Kiwisaver is described should be changed.

[Panda-NZ-]

One of Michael Cullens legacy projects and to think National bagged it just like they did in 75 when they abolished a Labour super scheme and let’s not forget they stopped contributing to the Cullen fund and they reckon they can run the economy better?

When they get in they will weaken it further.

Luxon will think its a tax on struggling wealthy business owners like the minimum wage increase.

[ynot]

When they get in they will weaken it further.

Luxon will think its a tax on struggling wealthy business owners like the minimum wage increase.

And fortunately they will get in ! I don't want to harp on about this but it needs to be highlighted. Labour are a disgrace.

[Balance]

And fortunately they will get in ! I don't want to harp on about this but it needs to be highlighted. Labour are a disgrace.

Not only a disgrace but cowards and hypocrites.

Notice David Parker, the snivelling and sneaky tax grab minister, failed to appear on his regular time slot with Nicola Willis on TV3 this morning.

His balls have shrunk with the u-turn. 🤣

[Bjauck]

And fortunately they will get in ! I don't want to harp on about this but it needs to be highlighted. Labour are a disgrace. A choice between the devil and the deep blue sea...

George Harrison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMJEtLjnO7E

[ynot]

A choice between the devil and the deep blue sea...

George Harrison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMJEtLjnO7E

Absolutely. I'm the first to admit that national are not perfect but my goodness, Labour, unbelievable !
They have both managed to miss manage NZ to a shadow of what it could have been. Rather disappointing that we have ended up in this pit of mediocrity.
A number of mitigating factors but the standout cock up I believe is MMP.

[Getty]

Famous formulas.

Einstein. Physics. E = mc2

Ardern. Economics & Superannuation. 2F 1C

[Balance]

David Parker - becoming a clone of Poto Willams & Phil Twyford.

The man who brought the Cost of Living payment debacle - delivering windfall payments to overseas backpackers, property investors and dead people.

Now, he sneakily tried to impose a new tax on Kiwisavers!

https://rnz-ressh.cloudinary.com/image/upload/s--1Em8pCTB--/c_scale,f_auto,q_auto,w_1050/4N1QITI_image_crop_92788

[winner69]

Seems to be the the target for Z and others in limiting number of places one can buy cigarettes

[Balance]

And Ardern’s crocodile tears about not undermining Cullen’s legacy fool no-one.

He will be rolling in his grave.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/pm-jacinda-ardern-defends-kiwisaver-tax-u-turn/Q46ILIKHC4WKDGCOIUYMGNNQYA/

Yesterday in the House Ardern confirmed that this hapless policy had been discussed by cabinet since late 2017.

Further, Ardern confirmed that there had been “ extensive and transparent “ consultation with stakeholders before presenting this tax grab to cabinet.

Not a single provider to KiwiSaver either supported it nor indeed were aware of its imminent implementation via the Bill.

Indeed, the fulsome press release never mentioned the biggest tax grab on retirees ever.

Simply sleazy, underhand and amoral attempts by this regime to take over $100 Billion from hard working Kiwis.

How on earth can anyone trust anything they say in the future ?

[dobby41]

And Ardern’s crocodile tears about not undermining Cullen’s legacy fool no-one.


That's National legacy - undermining KS.
Wait for the next installments whenever it is that they manage to get in.
- remove the kickstart
- halve the Govt contribution
- tax the employer contribution
Someone should calculate what these have cost KS members in lost savings over the years.

[777]

That's National legacy - undermining KS.
Wait for the next installments whenever it is that they manage to get in.
- remove the kickstart
- halve the Govt contribution
- tax the employer contribution
Someone should calculate what these have cost KS members in lost savings over the years.

The government gives you nothing. They simply redirect our taxes back to us. It would be better if they hadn't taken them in the first place and allowed you to invest it yourself.

[Panda-NZ-]

And fortunately they will get in ! I don't want to harp on about this but it needs to be highlighted. Labour are a disgrace.

Tauranga's finest - home to those like ynot, sam uffindel and simon bridges.

[Getty]

The government gives you nothing. They simply redirect our taxes back to us. It would be better if they hadn't taken them in the first place and allowed you to invest it yourself.

Yes, So True!

[Panda-NZ-]

The government gives you nothing. They simply redirect our taxes back to us. It would be better if they hadn't taken them in the first place and allowed you to invest it yourself.

Sir bill was happy to take the income tax from both KS and the super fund to claim a surplus.

People in NZ have zero saved for retirement hence why they were both introduced (Australia has $2T+ in comparison).

[Balance]

deleted deleted

[Panda-NZ-]

National's vision under lux - spit out kids that are unwanted.

Then make no effort to save for 30 years of retirement.

Huge costs all round.

[Getty]

National's vision under lux - spit out kids that are unwanted.

Then make no effort to save for 30 years of retirement.

Huge costs all round.

Panda, have you been on the fermented bamboo again?

You are hallucinating!

[Panda-NZ-]

Panda, have you been on the fermented bamboo again?

You are hallucinating!

I should have added, have the lowest taxes possible on those who are still working.

[Getty]

I should have added, have the lowest taxes possible on those who are still working.

Ah now that's better, a bit of National policy.

[Panda-NZ-]

Ah now that's better, a bit of National policy.

Such a policy right now though would cause inflation to skyrocket.

[Balance]

Ardern fighting back tears at Cullen’s funeral - crocodile tears.

We know they were crocodile tears as she was already planning then to sabotage his KiwiSaver legacy by doing a tax grab on hard working NZers’ retirement funds.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jacinda-ardern-fights-back-tears-in-memorial-service-to-michael-cullen/QKMOWUVK7AEDLQM6YWRSQRRCII/

‘Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern choked back tears at a memorial service for Sir Michael as she read aloud the last text message she sent to him.’

Sharma on her!

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1627811897077-SEA1YCVNXW4GRBHRXPHO/last+words.jpg?format=300w

[ynot]

Ardern fighting back tears at Cullen’s funeral - crocodile tears.

We know they were crocodile tears as she was already planning then to sabotage his KiwiSaver legacy by doing a tax grab on hard working NZers’ retirement funds.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jacinda-ardern-fights-back-tears-in-memorial-service-to-michael-cullen/QKMOWUVK7AEDLQM6YWRSQRRCII/

‘Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern choked back tears at a memorial service for Sir Michael as she read aloud the last text message she sent to him.’

Sharma on her!

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1627811897077-SEA1YCVNXW4GRBHRXPHO/last+words.jpg?format=300w
Fortunately not all Kiwis are as gullible as her must be dwindling fan club.

[tim23]

Ardern fighting back tears at Cullen’s funeral - crocodile tears.

We know they were crocodile tears as she was already planning then to sabotage his KiwiSaver legacy by doing a tax grab on hard working NZers’ retirement funds.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jacinda-ardern-fights-back-tears-in-memorial-service-to-michael-cullen/QKMOWUVK7AEDLQM6YWRSQRRCII/

‘Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern choked back tears at a memorial service for Sir Michael as she read aloud the last text message she sent to him.’

Sharma on her!

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1627811897077-SEA1YCVNXW4GRBHRXPHO/last+words.jpg?format=300w
Once again you embarrass yourself and your post is in bad taste. National bagged KS and then tweaked it unnecessary so it’s a bit rich isn’t it?

[Balance]

David 'U-Turn' Clark - remember that this fool was Deputy to David Cunliffe?

Seems like nothing has changed - once a fool, always a fool.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/OeJ86Jsxen7_QEofEUr8ON0XL8k=/1440x893/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/7CTYYYOFGXSQ4RJA7XB4OHT2NA.jpg

[Balance]

That's National legacy - undermining KS.
Wait for the next installments whenever it is that they manage to get in.
- remove the kickstart
- halve the Govt contribution
- tax the employer contribution
Someone should calculate what these have cost KS members in lost savings over the years.

What is being discussed here is Ardern’s crocodile tears.

National has made no pretence of the fact that KiwiSaver had to be changed to reduce the amount of funds required from the government.

What Ardern tried to do yesterday before the fastest U-Turn in NZ’s history is to TAX & TAKE money away from savers!

Cullen must be rolling in his grave.

Sharma on Ardern.

[Panda-NZ-]

Once again you embarrass yourself and your post is in bad taste. National bagged KS and then tweaked it unnecessary so it’s a bit rich isn’t it?

When the election cycle is 3 years, they didn't care about the huge but predictable costs 10 years in the future.

[Balance]

Sharma on 'Crocodile tears' U-Turn Ardern!

Still try to spin her way out of the embarrassing U-Turn after being caught with her fingers in the tax grab cookie jar. :t_up:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/129735898/what-on-earth-was-labour-thinking-with-its-illadvised-kiwisaver-tax

"Even in May, after Parker’s tax speech that ranged across the abstruse world of French economist Thomas Piketty and tried to lay out commonly agreed tax principles, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern gave assurances no new taxes were being worked on. In the House on Wednesday she kept referring to “evening up the playing field”.

[Bjauck]

...
Cullen must be rolling in his grave.

Sharma on Ardern. Cullen had introduced a taxed pension scheme unlike schemes in the USA, UK, Australia and elsewhere. So he may have been comfortable with Kiwisaver not avoiding GST...He'd probably be concerned at National, if they are in office, trying find ways to undermine it or introduce more pre-retirement withdrawal exceptions.

[Balance]

Cullen had introduced a taxed pension scheme unlike schemes in the USA, UK, Australia and elsewhere. So he may have been comfortable with Kiwisaver not avoiding GST...He'd probably be concerned at National, if they are in office, trying find ways to undermine it or introduce more pre-retirement withdrawal exceptions.

National & John Key stood in the 2008 election pledging changes to Kiwisaver - no surprises there despite the pathetic efforts of posters here trying to paint a different picture.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/election-2008/86491/kiwisaver-working-for-%27regular-new-zealanders%27-cullen

We know Cullen was a red dyed Labourite who openly preached contempt & disdain for anyone who had wealth (he called John Key a 'rich prick' before the prick burst his bubble and kicked him out of office, remember?).

So the last thing he would have expected is for Ardern & her spendthrift wasteful mob to sneakily try & use Kiwisaver as a tax grab - betrayal of the highest order.

No two ways about it - Cullen would be spinning in his grave especially with the crocodile tears of Ardern long dried in the sea of hypocrisy she swims in.

Sharma on her.

[fungus pudding]

News of the day from the Herald.

Matthew Hooton: Time's up for most inept Government ever

Tomorrow's 'breaking news' will probably be 'Gold discovered in Central Otago' :eek2:
or Maybe 'Wahine sinks in Wellington harbour'

[ynot]

News of the day from the Herald.

Matthew Hooton: Time's up for most inept Government ever

Tomorrow's 'breaking news' will probably be 'Gold discovered in Central Otago' :eek2:
or Maybe 'Wahine sinks in Wellington harbour'

Or Winston rises from the grave.

[Balance]

Watch this video but scroll to the end - the rantings of a clueless lunatic!

https://youtu.be/PJ7Cj_6ci80

In any case, have a laugh!

[Crypto Crude]

Well said! I've spent the best part of the last hour posting on various Facebook pages, trying to explain this to numerous people, who are panicking, upset, and threatening to pull out of or stop contributing to their KiwiSaver. I get that most of these people have not taken the time to fully understand how KiwiSaver works, but regardless of that, National exploited the situation intentionally. As you said "vigorously misrepresenting things for political gain."

Anything does not go for this voter. Up until now I have maintained an open mind in terms of who might be worthy of my vote. National just lost their spot on my list for this dirty play. Would take an absolute miracle for me to consider them now. As I said in another post, at the rate things are going, Labour will get back in by default because the other parties are slowly digging themselves an election grave.

15% of $20 is only $3....
No need for you to get so worked up over a few hundred cents here and there...

[Crypto Crude]

The next election is going to be telling. I voted Labour last time round - I have been happy with some of their decisions, but less so with others. Right now, I have no desire to vote for any of the three main parties. Talking with work colleagues and friends, it seems many people feel the same way. National and ACT spend 99.9% of their time repeating their criticisms of Labour. Everything that comes out of their mouths is about Labour, not about their own policies or what they propose to do to "fix" anything. Labour is not much better in the policy department but at least they are not simply focused on dissing their competition.

At the rate things are going, we may very well find that Labour wins votes by sheer default - because none of them have shown why they deserve our vote. Either that, or it will be the worst voter turnout yet, as people will just throw their hands up and say "nobody to vote for, won't bother voting." I have always voted and that won't change, but if things don't improve soon, in terms of election campaigning/presentation of policy/solutions, voters are going to find themselves in a dilemma.

No doubt you have and will continue to play the political party merry go round for decades more to come...

[justakiwi]

Read what I wrote. It wasn't me who was upset.

Having said that, your comment shows your age. Those of us who are significantly older and more mature, understand that cents add up to dollars, and every dollar is significant. Which is why a weirdo like me is happy to earn $1 doing a 3 minute online survey, as that's an extra dollar I have to invest. I am sure you would snigger at that, because in your eyes, $1 isn't worth your time. I'd rather be me.



15% of $20 is only $3....
No need for you to get so worked up over a few hundred cents here and there...

[777]

Ignore him JAK.

You will notice thread after thread most posters do.

[Balance]

Oz media calls Ardern a fraud :

https://youtu.be/A8EsoSdWqcU

Pity as there was hope that they would take her when we kick her out of office.

[Panda-NZ-]

We know Cullen was a red dyed Labourite who openly preached contempt & disdain for anyone who had wealth (he called John Key a 'rich prick' before the prick burst his bubble and kicked him out of office, remember?).


He was right wasn't he.

National = nothing to show for nine years.

[Balance]

He was right wasn't he.

National = nothing to show for nine years.

Rock star economy.

Eat your Ardern heart out. 🤣🤣🤣

[Panda-NZ-]

They promised they would catch us up in income to Australia - epic fail

[Balance]

They promised they would catch us up in coming to Australia - epic fail

But for National and John Key, NZ would be a third world country today.

Something Ardern is achieving within 4.5 years in power! 🤣🤣🤣

[Panda-NZ-]

But for National and John Key, NZ would be a third world country today.


Not we would be even richer since we didn't sell our assets for scrap.

[Getty]

Oz media calls Ardern a fraud :

https://youtu.be/A8EsoSdWqcU

Pity as there was hope that they would take her when we kick her out of office.

Which leads me to ask when is she going to step down as leader?

Ms Ardern did not want to be Labour leader prior to the overthrow of Mr Little, so therefore not PM either.

When Winston installed her as PM, she has since appointed some equally reluctant or incompetent Ministers such as Clare Curran, Kris, Poto, David Clark etc and the cross between Father Christmas & Robin Hood, David Parker.

I believe she wants out, and the Sharma and now Parker debacles have meant she has had to delay the announcement, as she doesn't want to be seen to be leaving a sinking ship, but just as equally won't want to abandon her pay rate, till a sweet UN type position is available.
Helen, can you help?

Nominations please for her departure month, and also her replacement.

The correct answer receives 2F 1C.

[Panda-NZ-]

Which leads me to ask when is she going to step down as leader?


Labour is not the current National party, it will be when the voters decide of course.

[fungus pudding]

Which leads me to ask when is she going to step down as leader?

Ms Ardern did not want to be Labour leader prior to the overthrow of Mr Little, so therefore not PM either.

When Winston installed her as PM, she has since appointed some equally reluctant or incompetent Ministers such as Clare Curran, Kris, Poto, David Clark etc and the cross between Father Christmas & Robin Hood, David Parker.

I believe she wants out, and the Sharma and now Parker debacles have meant she has had to delay the announcement, as she doesn't want to be seen to be leaving a sinking ship, but just as equally won't want to abandon her pay rate, till a sweet UN type position is available.
Helen, can you help?

Nominations please for her departure month, and also her replacement.

The correct answer receives 2F 1C.

Credit where credit is due. She remains the most popular politician in the country, which is quite remarkable, and says much about her likeable personality. But not surprising she's made it to leader given the hopeless bunch of riff-raff in her Labour caucus. I certainly wouldn't want her replacement to come from their current ranks. Imagine Kelvin Davis, David Parker, Nana Mahuta, Phil Twyford, Willie Jackson, Tamati Coffey, Greg O'Connor etc - as Prime Minister? Be honest --- you couldn't, could you!


See if you could pick a better leader from this sad bunch.

https://www.labour.org.nz/ourteam

There's only one who could replace her from that lot.

[Panda-NZ-]

FP doesn't like the look of diversity it seems (having a team which looks like NZ).

[ynot]

FP doesn't like the look of diversity it seems (a team which looks like NZ).

Diversity have nothing to do with talent.

[Aaron]

Still on the GST on managed fund fees saw this headline.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/09/government-accused-of-undermining-confidence-in-kiwisaver-following-tax-u-turn.html

Amelia Wade must have not liked the thought of her Kiwisaver being affected.

And the fallout from the plan to wipe $103 billion from KiwiSaver funds

The main people undermining Kiwisaver are people like Amelia with sensationalist statements. The $103 billion by 2070 (a lot of people on this site will be dead by 2070) is the GST the fund managers will have paid to the people of NZ. She makes it seem like we will all lose our savings and we will lose some as managers pass on the GST to customers but the way it has been framed does not seem right to me.

Amelia makes no attempt to educate the ignorant but add fuel to the fire of outrage. No attempt to educate or inform because apparently that is not the media's role anymore. Once we leave school or university most of the information we get is through the media (or worse social media, a place where even I can have an opinion) so it is unfortunate that it is focused on attracting attention rather than providing anything close to informed debate or useful context.

[fungus pudding]

There's more than one way to skin a cat!

14119

[Bjauck]

National & John Key stood in the 2008 election pledging changes to Kiwisaver - no surprises there despite the pathetic efforts of posters here trying to paint a different picture.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/election-2008/86491/kiwisaver-working-for-%27regular-new-zealanders%27-cullen

We know Cullen was a red dyed Labourite who openly preached contempt & disdain for anyone who had wealth (he called John Key a 'rich prick' before the prick burst his bubble and kicked him out of office, remember?).

So the last thing he would have expected is for Ardern & her spendthrift wasteful mob to sneakily try & use Kiwisaver as a tax grab - betrayal of the highest order.

No two ways about it - Cullen would be spinning in his grave especially with the crocodile tears of Ardern long dried in the sea of hypocrisy she swims in.

Sharma on her.
Cullen did create a PIE tax grabbing KiwiSaver in the first place though. NZ did not get a tax concessionary pension scheme, unlike in many other countries. Yet Cullen was happy to leave those with real estate to keep their leveraged capital gains mostly untaxed. So Cullen may have had red thoughts but he was pale pink in effect.

[Panda-NZ-]

Cullen did create a PIE tax grabbing KiwiSaver in the first place though. NZ did not get a tax concessionary pension scheme, unlike in many other countries.

It was until National removed it (they are against low and middle class people having savings).

Kiwisaver contributions could have been an attractive incentive in today's job market if it remained untaxed. There's no incentive to provide more than the absolute minimum now.

[Bjauck]

It was until National removed it (they are against low and middle class people having savings).

Kiwisaver contributions could have been an attractive incentive in today's job market if it remained untaxed. There's no incentive to provide more than the absolute minimum now.

I thought the only original tax exemption was for employee contributions (paid gross). That from the start, voluntary and self-employed contributions were made out of taxed income, with no rebate for tax, and that income earned within the locked-in scheme was taxed.

There was the annual $1042 maximum credit.

[Panda-NZ-]

I think this tax was introduced by National on employer contributions:

https://www.ird.govt.nz/employing-staff/deductions-from-income/employer-superannuation-contriibution-tax-esct

[Panda-NZ-]

Taxation (Annual Rates and Budget Measures) Bill 2011.


This bill amends the Income Tax Act 2007.

The employer superannuation contribution tax (ESCT) exemption for compulsory employer contributions to KiwiSaver and complying superannuation funds is removed. In addition, employers will be required to calculate ESCT at a rate equivalent to an employee’s marginal tax rate.


http://www.nzlii.org/nz/legis/bill/trabmb2011404.pdf

[Bjauck]

I think this tax was introduced by National on employer contributions:

https://www.ird.govt.nz/employing-staff/deductions-from-income/employer-superannuation-contriibution-tax-esct So Cullen gave those who had income from employment, up to a certain %, a bit of a tax exemption. Did Voluntary payments and contributions from the self-employed get a rebate? Tax was levied on income earned within the scheme. IMHO I think GST levied on KiwiSaver fund fees would have been nodded through by him for consistency.

[tim23]

He was right wasn't he.

National = nothing to show for nine years.
There was no legacy from the Key government- oh hold on a failed flag referendum.

[tim23]

Rock star economy.

Eat your Ardern heart out. 🤣🤣🤣

We have lower unemployment now and higher wages so who’s the rock star now?

[Balance]

Rock star economy = National & John Key.

Very very very satisfying to see the green envy on Ardern’s face this week.

A week of shame & disasters for Ardern - cost of living payment becoming an embarrassment & deceit over KiwiSaver tax grab becoming an albatross around David Clark’s neck.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/474007/week-in-politics-a-kiwisaver-disaster-the-government-didn-t-see-coming

[tim23]

Credit where credit is due. She remains the most popular politician in the country, which is quite remarkable, and says much about her likeable personality. But not surprising she's made it to leader given the hopeless bunch of riff-raff in her Labour caucus. I certainly wouldn't want her replacement to come from their current ranks. Imagine Kelvin Davis, David Parker, Nana Mahuta, Phil Twyford, Willie Jackson, Tamati Coffey, Greg O'Connor etc - as Prime Minister? Be honest --- you couldn't, could you!


See if you could pick a better leader from this sad bunch.

https://www.labour.org.nz/ourteam

There's only one who could replace her from that lot.
You look to have omitted Grant Robertson - I’m actually expecting him to be the leader and therefore PM before next election.

[Baa_Baa]

You look to have omitted Grant Robertson - I’m actually expecting him to be the leader and therefore PM before next election.

Ha ha lol, for sure, Robertson would be a great choice, he doesn't even get a rating on the preferred prime minister polls, zip, nada. Even Peters, Collins and Key get a rating.

[tim23]

Ha ha lol, for sure, Robertson would be a great choice, he doesn't even get a rating on the preferred prime minister polls, zip, nada. Even Peters, Collins and Key get a rating.

Just goes to show people being polled are pretty dumb - those 3 are not even in parliament 😀