Labour govt 2020-23

[iceman]

Well, yes - the way New Zealand has treated its own overseas citizens as well as other valid visa holders can only be described as disgusting and absolutely heartless.

My father died last year overseas ... and thanks to Ardern and her absolutely shameful and broken MIQ system I could not visit him at the deathbed. While I could have left NZ, there would have been no way to guarantee a return.

My wife had the same situation, while I was locked out of the country and could not return HOME. I will never forgive Ardern and her useless Government for how they dealt (not dealt) with COVID. Only North Korea, China and NZ did anything similar. A shameful part of NZ history this will be.

[Balance]

My wife had the same situation, while I was locked out of the country and could not return HOME. I will never forgive Ardern and her useless Government for how they dealt (not dealt) with COVID. Only North Korea, China and NZ did anything similar. A shameful part of NZ history this will be.

High Court ruling : MIQ lottery system unjust.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/466041/miq-ruling-high-court-has-told-govt-it-overstepped-the-mark-lawyer-says

[Panda-NZ-]

Well, yes - the way New Zealand has treated its own overseas citizens as well as other valid visa holders can only be described as disgusting and absolutely heartless.

My father died last year overseas ... and thanks to Ardern and her absolutely shameful and broken MIQ system I could not visit him at the deathbed. While I could have left NZ, there would have been no way to guarantee a return.

Who would seek to travel during an international pandemic.. no personal responsibility.

[iceman]

High Court ruling : MIQ lottery system unjust.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/466041/miq-ruling-high-court-has-told-govt-it-overstepped-the-mark-lawyer-says

Yes I know. I also have a friend who took his personal case to the Ombudsman and had a favourable conclusion after nearly 12 months. But nothing happens.The justice system has been severely compromised under this Government. Hence the exodus of people from NZ this year.

[Balance]

Backs to the wall, the hypocrisy of Ardern’s ‘Be Kind’ government is revealed for all to see :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300701803/labour-is-harnessing-the-wrong-kind-of-anger-if-it-wants-to-win

Nasty, racist & disgusting - so clear for all to see.

[Getty]

Andrea Vance opined in that Stuff article that Adern does not do character assassination.

Would Guarev Sharma beg to differ?

[tim23]

Andrea Vance opined in that Stuff article that Adern does not do character assassination.

Would Guarev Sharma beg to differ?

Give it up - would you honestly believe anything Sharma said?

[Getty]

Give it up - would you honestly believe anything Sharma said?

Is WOWser Adern innocent?

[tim23]

Is WOWser Adern innocent?

Read Vance’s column.

[Getty]

Did you mean; "the wider problem within the Labour tribe - who prefer invective to rational debate "?

[Getty]

WOWser Ardern, never in style and now out of fashion!

[tim23]

WOWser Adern, never in style and now out of fashion!
Ynots turn now - Balances White Knight tag team😀

[Getty]

Ynots turn now - Balances White Knight tag team😀

You look like you're at a loose end there Tim,

Care to join?

It's a broad church you know?

[Getty]

We need a firebrand, all we've got now is Cinders...

[Getty]

You look like you're at a loose end there Tim,

Care to join?

It's a broad church you know?

Your hesitancy is interpreted as a no?

Remain as a loose cannon then, but remember your balls may be shot!

[tim23]

Your hesitancy is interpreted as a no?

Remain as a loose cannon then, but remember your balls may be shot!
You make no sense - it’s too early in the day to have been drinking so what you on?

[Getty]

I'm on a crusade to rid NZ of further Labour tyranny and incompetence.

Cheers.

[Getty]

You make no sense - it’s too early in the day to have been drinking so what you on?

Are you wrestling with the White Knight Tag team, or something else you don't understand?

[tim23]

Are you wrestling with the White Knight Tag team, or something else you don't understand?

With that odd post I reckon you’ve been on the 🍺

[Getty]

With that odd post I reckon you’ve been on the 🍺

Your shout then mate!

[tim23]

Your shout then mate!
I actually enjoyed that 🍺 😀

[Getty]

Bottoms up!

[Baa_Baa]

"Most transparent Government ever"

14209

[Balance]

More than 200,000 NZers on health watch list - and growing every day thanks to Ardern & Andrew Little mucking around with centralizing the HDBs, rather than focus on sorting out the health disaster which unfolded due to their neglect in the last 5 years.

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2209/S00160/more-than-200000-kiwis-on-a-health-wait-list.htm

And this is 4 months after the much heralded task force set up to tackle the waiting list:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/05/high-powered-taskforce-being-set-up-to-tackle-hospital-waiting-times-nurse-calls-current-backlog-abysmal.html

District health boards have kept working hard to see people as quickly as they can, but the latest figures show that in March, nearly 36,000 (35,942) people had been waiting longer than four months to have their first appointment with a hospital specialist.

That’s more than twice as many people as before the COVID pandemic hit (14,787 in February 2020).

The number of people waiting longer than four months for treatment has more than trebled, from just over 8000 (8153) in February 2020 to nearly 27,000 (26,764) in March this year.

[Panda-NZ-]

"Most transparent Government ever"


Release the Sam uffindel report please.

[Balance]

Release the Sam uffindel report please.

Release the Melissa Heni Mekameka Whaitiri Report.

Release the Labour Youth Camp Sex Scandal Report.

[Balance]

More than 200,000 NZers on health watch list - and growing every day thanks to Ardern & Andrew Little mucking around with centralizing the HDBs, rather than focus on sorting out the health disaster which unfolded due to their neglect in the last 5 years.

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2209/S00160/more-than-200000-kiwis-on-a-health-wait-list.htm

And this is 4 months after the much heralded task force set up to tackle the waiting list:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/05/high-powered-taskforce-being-set-up-to-tackle-hospital-waiting-times-nurse-calls-current-backlog-abysmal.html

District health boards have kept working hard to see people as quickly as they can, but the latest figures show that in March, nearly 36,000 (35,942) people had been waiting longer than four months to have their first appointment with a hospital specialist.

That’s more than twice as many people as before the COVID pandemic hit (14,787 in February 2020).

The number of people waiting longer than four months for treatment has more than trebled, from just over 8000 (8153) in February 2020 to nearly 27,000 (26,764) in March this year.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/opinion/heather-du-plessis-allan-andrew-little-is-having-a-laugh-pretending-he-didnt-know-about-health-system-woes/

Andrew Little is either a liar or an incompetent buffoon - either way, he should not be anywhere near the health ministry - let alone be minister in charge.

[fungus pudding]

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/opinion/heather-du-plessis-allan-andrew-little-is-having-a-laugh-pretending-he-didnt-know-about-health-system-woes/

Andrew Little is either a liar or an incompetent buffoon - either way, he should not be anywhere near the health ministry - let alone be minister in charge.

Incompetent bufoon.

[Balance]

More revelations of misinformation, deflections and attempts at hiding the truth from NZers :

Hipkins lying as usual.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/130054218/social-development-minister-ministry-rebuff-questions-over-northland-lockdown-on-false-grounds

Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni refused to answer questions about the Northland Covid-19 lockdown, claiming it was still under active police investigation. But it wasn't.

At the same time, her agency claimed it held no information on the four people granted an exemption to travel into the region from Auckland’s Delta lockdown. In fact, the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) had approved the application.

The Government has faced a barrage of criticism after it emerged in July that Covid-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins had made false claims, repeated by Sepuloni, about the women who triggered the $23m shut-down on October 2021, and failed to correct the record. Two women were publicly vilified.

[JAYAY]

A bit of comedy.

Rukshan Fernando on Twitter: "Honoured guest Supreme Leader of New Zealand, Jacinda, brings great joy and wonderful gift of free speech. Please do not share video to protect free speech. https://t.co/DyWtHmtC57" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/therealrukshan/status/1575435182986756096?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1575435182986756096%7Ctwgr% 5E11f482db17bcac3adee1a6d8491c3a5bbcb725c4%7Ctwcon %5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthebfd.co.nz%2F2022%2F10%2F0 1%2Ftweet-of-the-day-55%2F)

[iceman]

No wonder crime is our of control with a Government & justice system so utterly useless in dealing with serious crimes:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/taranaki-manslaughter-case-lachlan-johnson-jailed-for-six-years-for-fatal-shooting-of-neighbour-mitchell-mosen/UQUE4AB5QMVORKYAPFP53ARPTI/

[BlackPeter]

No wonder crime is our of control with a Government & justice system so utterly useless in dealing with serious crimes:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/taranaki-manslaughter-case-lachlan-johnson-jailed-for-six-years-for-fatal-shooting-of-neighbour-mitchell-mosen/UQUE4AB5QMVORKYAPFP53ARPTI/

I agree - at least on face value (without any other knowledge of the case than the article) it appears the sentence is in this case ridiculously lenient. If somebody shoots another person several times and claims they didn't wanted to kill them, than they are either liars and need to be locked up for murder or they are so dangerously stupid that the risk to society is not acceptable and they need to be locked up like a dangerous animal to protect society.

I guess it is even in good times hard to see how a system randomly selecting 12 people from the street to decide about guilt and innocence of a person can produce consistently fair results - and clearly, it doesn't.

It is a justice lottery we have, and sometimes fortuna smiles at the victims and sometimes she smiles at the accused. Throw the dice.

Clearly - justice has not been done in this case, but on the other hand I don't think that we can blame Labour for this disaster ... and, lets face it - if I look at other countries, there is none which gets it always right. You can either err on the side of the offender and let too many of them get lightly away (In dubio pro reo) or you need to accept that you lock up as well innocent people or punish offenders too harsh.

Some years ago they did a study in the US (they use a similar jury systems as we) and found out that roughly 90% of people on death row are actually guilty - i.e. 10% are wrong-fully convicted. Clearly not good if the state kills 1 innocent person out of every 10 convicted, but I suppose this is the accuracy a jury system gives you.

What I want to say is - I agree, our justice system sucks from time to time ... however it is a bit like with democracy (which is the worst form of government but all the others) - no country found yet the solution to get it consistently better.

While I am sure that there are things we could do to improve our justice system - we will never get it 100% right, and I don't think either we can blame Labour for this particular outcome.

In my view a worthwhile discussion, but not sure whether it improves the outcome if we mix it with ideology and political views.

[jonu]

I agree - at least on face value (without any other knowledge of the case than the article) it appears the sentence is in this case ridiculously lenient. If somebody shoots another person several times and claims they didn't wanted to kill them, than they are either liars and need to be locked up for murder or they are so dangerously stupid that the risk to society is not acceptable and they need to be locked up like a dangerous animal to protect society.

I guess it is even in good times hard to see how a system randomly selecting 12 people from the street to decide about guilt and innocence of a person can produce consistently fair results - and clearly, it doesn't.

It is a justice lottery we have, and sometimes fortuna smiles at the victims and sometimes she smiles at the accused. Throw the dice.

Clearly - justice has not been done in this case, but on the other hand I don't think that we can blame Labour for this disaster ... and, lets face it - if I look at other countries, there is none which gets it always right. You can either err on the side of the offender and let too many of them get lightly away (In dubio pro reo) or you need to accept that you lock up as well innocent people or punish offenders too harsh.

Some years ago they did a study in the US (they use a similar jury systems as we) and found out that roughly 90% of people on death row are actually guilty - i.e. 10% are wrong-fully convicted. Clearly not good if the state kills 1 innocent person out of every 10 convicted, but I suppose this is the accuracy a jury system gives you.

What I want to say is - I agree, our justice system sucks from time to time ... however it is a bit like with democracy (which is the worst form of government but all the others) - no country found yet the solution to get it consistently better.

While I am sure that there are things we could do to improve our justice system - we will never get it 100% right, and I don't think either we can blame Labour for this particular outcome.

In my view a worthwhile discussion, but not sure whether it improves the outcome if we mix it with ideology and political views.

You are barking up the wrong tree blaming the jury system in this case. He was found guilty of manslaughter by the jury. It appears that the fact no one realised the victim had been hit in the chest was what probably saved the offender from a murder verdict. My own view is that anyone who takes the time to go and get a gun with the intent of shooting someone, and the victim dies, is guilty of murder. Eg if he shot him in the leg but they still bled to death.
The sentence is the sole responsibility of the judge. The maximum sentence for manslaughter is much heftier than that imposed by the judge.

[BlackPeter]

You are barking up the wrong tree blaming the jury system in this case. He was found guilty of manslaughter by the jury. It appears that the fact no one realised the victim had been hit in the chest was what probably saved the offender from a murder verdict. My own view is that anyone who takes the time to go and get a gun with the intent of shooting someone, and the victim dies, is guilty of murder. Eg if he shot him in the leg but they still bled to death.
The sentence is the sole responsibility of the judge. The maximum sentence for manslaughter is much heftier than that imposed by the judge.

Not sure it is the wrong tree I am barking up - there are clearly a number of culprits sitting in several trees and I just picked another tree than you did to bark up :) - hey you can't bark at all trees at the same time.

The jury could have (and I think should have based on the facts we know) gone for murder ... but sure, you are right - the judge could have (and should have, based on the facts we know) determined a less lenient sentence for manslaughter.

No reason to disagree. So many opportunities to improve the system, but I am sure as well to screw it further up.

It is always much easier to point (with the benefit of hindsight) to perceived mistakes in the system, than drawing up a good system which covers all eventualities for a future we all don't know.

Always remember the ridiculous consequences of ACT's deeply flawed three strikes law (I am sure introduced with the best intentions) which brought a somewhat mentally impaired man for 7 years into prison for attempting to kiss a woman.

Always easier to point to other peoples failures than to admit the own failures ... and to do it better.

[winner69]

Got an email from Grant with these charts in it ……great effort ……well done Grant, ably supported by the PM

[Logen Ninefingers]

So I borrow $3 million from an elderly relative, then blow $2.1 million on wine, women, and song & when the party finally winds down I find I have $900,000 left over.
Yay!! Due to my prudence and ‘fiscal responsibility’ I have ‘made’ $900,000! I should be a Minister of Finance!

This is the Grant Robertson approach to economics: borrow $1 Billion a week, and get back in tax a portion of that surfeit of cash that is being thrown around far and wide. Notice a few billion down the back of the coach. Receive plaudits from the media for incredible ‘fiscal responsibility’.

Because the country is drowning in borrowed cash, Labour will point to the ‘healthy finances’ and say the ongoing spend-up can continue apace, while National and ACT will say “gosh we are doing well, how brilliant - let’s reward ourselves with Tax Cuts!”

Far from being a ‘fiscally responsible’ model of good sense, NZ is a prime example of how a nation can totally lose its head when it becomes addicted to borrowing and starts to view ‘accumulating debt’ as ‘generated income.’

[Getty]

Any truth in the rumour that Cinders, the woman who reduced NZ to ashes, is moving Hells Gate 13 km to the Whaka end of Rotorua's Fenton Street, to fence in a few whukas?

A job for the Ministry of De fence?

[Getty]

Every NZer should read today's NZ Herald article;
Public money, Public benefits? Mahuta family contracts.

You need to know about the very limited number of experts of Maori waste, and have an outline on the tales of Maui's guiding winds.

Expect plenty more psychobabble and Koha concepts from the new Maori Health Authority.

At this stage, only ACT has any intent to remove such nonsense from planning

[Panda-NZ-]

So I borrow $3 million from an elderly relative, then blow $2.1 million on wine, women, and song & when the party finally winds down I find I have $900,000 left over.
Yay!! Due to my prudence and ‘fiscal responsibility’ I have ‘made’ $900,000! I should be a Minister of Finance!

It's exactly what National did though, with less to show for it.

Why did they borrow anything when they sold swathes of NZ's assets.

[777]

It's exactly what National did though, with less to show for it.

Why did they borrow anything when they sold swathes of NZ's assets.

How about a list of what National sold and what Labour sold. It will be difficult challenge for you but may give us a break from you for a while.

How much is a "swathe"?

[Getty]

Every NZer should read today's NZ Herald article;
Public money, Public benefits? Mahuta family contracts.

You need to know about the very limited number of experts of Maori waste, and have an outline on the tales of Maui's guiding winds.

Expect plenty more psychobabble and Koha concepts from the new Maori Health Authority.

At this stage, only ACT has any intent to remove such nonsense from planning

They use the word apprise, if anyone knew what that meant.

The only prising going on is of money out of taxpayers pockets into valueless causes.

[fungus pudding]

Every NZer should read today's NZ Herald article;
Public money, Public benefits? Mahuta family contracts.

You need to know about the very limited number of experts of Maori waste, and have an outline on the tales of Maui's guiding winds.

Expect plenty more psychobabble and Koha concepts from the new Maori Health Authority.

At this stage, only ACT has any intent to remove such nonsense from planning

Can't find it. How about posting the link.

[Getty]

Can't find it. How about posting the link.
I'm operating from my cellphone for now, don't know how, hopefully another 'geek' can oblige.

[Balance]

Post of the day in NZ Herald:

Mr Robertson, could you and your colleagues please do something about the crime, the lack of education, infrastructure, our woeful third world healthcare system, our negligent social services and our closed border.

Instead of wasting every penny we have (not your money ours), on crazy divisive nonsense, such as three waters, media merges, co governance, bureaucrats, useless cycle ways, a million pointless “wrap around services “ that do not work and your obsession with consultants.

[BlackPeter]

I'm operating from my cellphone for now, don't know how, hopefully another 'geek' can oblige.

I strongly contest the label "geek", but just for the nice posters in sharetrader ... here is the link:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/public-money-public-benefit-mahuta-family-contracts-what-taxpayers-got-in-return-for-237000/TWNES7RTWUKK6NIDIEDGABSGOU/

(though probably paywalled)


From October 2020 to April 2021, four government agencies — housing agency Kāinga Ora; the Ministry for the Environment; the Department of Conservation; and Te Puni Kōkiri (the Ministry of Māori Development) — contracted $237,000 (excluding GST) of services from two consultancies: Ka Awatea Services, owned by Mahuta's husband Gannin Ormsby, and Kawai Catalyst, owned by Tamoko and Waimirirangi Ormsby, Gannin Ormsby's nephew and his nephew's wife respectively.

The work included a $28,000 grant but the three other contracts were all awarded on a sole-source basis.

It is a long and thorough article, and according to it it sounds like that the payment conditions have been typically favouring the contractor (large payments at acceptance), while the delivery for a number of these jobs appears to be "wanting" or of questionable benefit to the tax payer - one guy apparently got paid just for attending some meetings.

They don't say whether this is the standard modus of operations of our government, or whether Mahuta's family got special conditions.

[fungus pudding]

I strongly contest the label "geek", but just for the nice posters in sharetrader ... here is the link:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/public-money-public-benefit-mahuta-family-contracts-what-taxpayers-got-in-return-for-237000/TWNES7RTWUKK6NIDIEDGABSGOU/

(though probably paywalled)

Thanks - but it is paywalled. Too bad.

[winner69]

Not much seems to be have said about Kris Faafoi becoming a lobbyistt so soon after resigning as as a Minister of almost anything

Other countries have quite long stand down periods but apparently it's OK to start the next day in NZ

[BlackPeter]

Thanks - but it is paywalled. Too bad.

I put some summary in my post above.

[Balance]

Wayne Brown wins Auckland mayoralty.

Big black eye for Ardern.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/jacinda-ardern-endorses-efeso-collins-for-auckland-mayor/QBYG6S6RFPKXTSI7UMWDJ4VQOE/

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has officially endorsed Efeso Collins for Auckland mayor.

Ardern said on Monday it was clear she endorsed all Labour-endorsed candidates, but later added she would make a specific endorsement of Collins.

[Panda-NZ-]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/local-body-elections-wayne-brown-wins-race-to-be-auckland-mayor-by-54000-votes-over-efeso-collins/LDT6ZDIQZYEHR3J7PIVJJ7L7NU/


"We built a formidable team and now we will widen that team to include everyone who has been elected today, all those Auckland Council officers who work hard and deliver real services to the people of the region, and Efeso, who I have come to regard as a friend and would like to work with over the three years ahead."
Cool. They're the best of friends now. So there's no need to insert party politics into it balance.

[dobby41]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/local-body-elections-wayne-brown-wins-race-to-be-auckland-mayor-by-54000-votes-over-efeso-collins/LDT6ZDIQZYEHR3J7PIVJJ7L7NU/


Cool. They're the best of friends now. So there's no need to insert party politics into it balance.

An unbalanced person inserts party politics into everything.

[Balance]

LOL.

Kiss of death when Ardern endorses anyone now - Collins in Auckland and Eagle in Wellington. Both lost by big margins.

Very very very satisfying.

Bring on 2023!!!

[Baa_Baa]

Even TV1 news went straight to the point, re the massive swings to centre right across the country and what signal this sends to central government in the upcoming elections. Many weren't 'tight' margins either, they were huge and even for some challengers surprisingly decisive margins they won by. The mood of the country is definitely shifting.

[Getty]

Oh well, Taxcinda strutting the cat walk didn't do it for her endorsees.

What's next, a bungy jump or a skydive?

Or will it be her polls that do the diving?

[stoploss]

LOL.

Kiss of death when Ardern endorses anyone now - Collins in Auckland and Eagle in Wellington. Both lost by big margins.

Very very very satisfying.

Bring on 2023!!!
Eagle 4th :ohmy: After that showing will they want him back in parliament ?

[Getty]

4th eh.

Wellington gave Eagle the bird!

[davflaws]

Oh well, Taxcinda strutting the cat walk didn't do it for her endorsees.

What's next, a bungy jump or a skydive?

Or will it be her polls that do the diving?

Endorsees all crashing and burning
And we can't live on what we are earning
Polls trending down - what to do - just maybe
Time to have another baby?

[Baa_Baa]

Endorsees all crashing and burning
And we can't live on what we are earning
Polls trending down - what to do - just maybe
Time to have another baby?

Capitulation, is never nice to see, unless you're on the other side. Desperate times for Labour, getting hammered in the local body elections .. it's foreboding for the national elections. They'll be very worried about his. Interesting themes emerging as well, common consensus on the whacky Labour policies but more telling is the consensus on their inability to implement any of it. Like a vote of no confidence in central Government.

[Getty]

Endorsees all crashing and burning
And we can't live on what we are earning
Polls trending down - what to do - just maybe
Time to have another baby?

Very poetic and maybe prophetic.

It did look like Cinders was displaying more than art on the catwalk...

[iceman]

An unbalanced person inserts party politics into everything.

The election results in many parts of NZ are party politics, particularly where the PM and Labour have endorsed certain candidates. They have all been rejected in a clear swing across the country against Central Government and a vote for a change.
Hopefully 3 Waters is now a dead duck.

[Getty]

An observation I have made, is that most in favour of 3 waters, are of the belief that their area will get more money immediately invested into their water infrastructure.

They haven't considered which areas will miss out and which will join a que, and that will be THEM!

The bad news they don't want to consider is that taxation will increase, or services will be cut back.

Their lunch won't be free, so stop thinking it's everyone else's time to shout.

[nztx]

An observation I have made, is that most in favour of 3 waters, are of the belief that their area will get more money immediately invested into their water infrastructure.

They haven't considered which areas will miss out and which will join a que, and that will be THEM!

The bad news they don't want to consider is that taxation will increase, or services will be cut back.

Their lunch won't be free, so stop thinking it's everyone else's time to shout.


About right too .. Mahuta's hand in the pie wont have helped

As for anything immediate - how many immediately fixed job promises are still hanging
in tatters extending from Ardern's first term ? Most or all ? ;)

[Getty]

Something for Comrade Cinders and crew to reflect on after the local body elections.
.
https://youtu.be/6MbqzDm1uCo

There is even a reference to Chairman Mao.

[Balance]

Very poetic and maybe prophetic.

It did look like Cinders was displaying more than art on the catwalk...

Writing is on the wall for Ardern, the spin mistress who has delivered nothing in 5 years but

arrogance,

incompetence,

more crime,

more homelessness,

racist divisiveness and

more debt burden for future generations to carry.

Question now is when she goes - before the election to the UN or get kicked out in election 2023.

Remember she is all about the optics - looking and sounding good, rather than delivering anything good.

[jonu]

Is it any surprise that we had to endure Ardern's "pulpit of truth"? She merely copying the UN's lead from Climate Change propaganda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0QznbSpwY8

Apparently the UN "Owns the science".

You may or maybe not agree with the UN, or Ardern for that matter, but it is in no way healthy for the UN and big tech, or our government and big tech, to be colluding on the dissemination of information. Ardern did this, and continues to do this, right through the pandemic.

See this link from John Campbell, where it not only carries the NZ government propaganda links below it, he feels obliged to say in the video that he is not contradicting any official advice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uF1oPyh8OY

[Bjauck]

Even TV1 news went straight to the point, re the massive swings to centre right across the country and what signal this sends to central government in the upcoming elections. Many weren't 'tight' margins either, they were huge and even for some challengers surprisingly decisive margins they won by. The mood of the country is definitely shifting.
It is interesting how Albanese took the Treasury benches from The Right Wing parties in Australia. How Labour, with even a grey leader in Starmer, has an enormous lead over the incumbent Right Wing Cons in the UK.

Now even in Aotearoa, Nats have the lead in polling. I wonder if in all the three countries, it is because the electorate are swinging against whichever the incumbent party was in government during the dark days if the pandemic. With the extent of the failures of each government determining the strength of the swing. Every government has failures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_genera l_election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_New_Zealand_general_e lection

[jonu]

Is it any surprise that we had to endure Ardern's "pulpit of truth"? She merely copying the UN's lead from Climate Change propaganda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0QznbSpwY8

Apparently the UN "Owns the science".

You may or maybe not agree with the UN, or Ardern for that matter, but it is in no way healthy for the UN and big tech, or our government and big tech, to be colluding on the dissemination of information. Ardern did this, and continues to do this, right through the pandemic.

See this link from John Campbell, where it not only carries the NZ government propaganda links below it, he feels obliged to say in the video that he is not contradicting any official advice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uF1oPyh8OY

Further to my point, an international perspective in an interview with Sean Plunket.
This "Disinformation Project" connected to the Office of the PM is as scary as it gets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwBrT6crwJg

[BlackPeter]

Further to my point, an international perspective in an interview with Sean Plunket.
This "Disinformation Project" connected to the Office of the PM is as scary as it gets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwBrT6crwJg

Pretty disgusting drivel.

There is no such thing as a right to spread lies, to defame, or to endanger or damage others using hate speech.

That's in a nutshell what Jacinda said. Nothing wrong with it.

However everything wrong with the people who want to continue to spread lies, defamation and hate speech under the cover of "free speech".

[jonu]

The following message received from BlackPeter alongside a negative reputation for my previous posts about Ardern's determination to be the sole arbiter of truth.

"scary post - you just can't stop yourself to spread extreme right wing lies and undermine democratically elected governments, can you?"

Seems the Ardern stardust remains sprinkled heavily on this one.
Ardern may as well rename the "disinformation project" the Ministry of Truth. Why is it connected to the office of the PM? Why is it exempt from the OIA?

[Bjauck]

The following message received from BlackPeter alongside a negative reputation for my previous posts about Ardern's determination to be the sole arbiter of truth.

"scary post - you just can't stop yourself to spread extreme right wing lies and undermine democratically elected governments, can you?"

Seems the Ardern stardust remains sprinkled heavily on this one.
Ardern may as well rename the "disinformation project" the Ministry of Truth. Why is it connected to the office of the PM? Why is it exempt from the OIA? Have you not seen some of BP's posts critical of government policy?

The mosque attacks were committed by a mind in part deranged by exposure to unfiltered hatred. It is a matter of national security. The Prime Minister's involvement is needed.

[Balance]

How do you know Ardern is lying?

When she opens her mouth.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/130121928/local-government-elections-not-straight-reflection-of-support-for-the-government-ardern-says

[Logen Ninefingers]

Is Tory Whanau - the new Mayor of Wellington - a closet right winger? I heard talk that her family may be National Party supporters.

[BlackPeter]

How do you know Ardern is lying?

When she opens her mouth.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/130121928/local-government-elections-not-straight-reflection-of-support-for-the-government-ardern-says

Funny.

That's what she said:


Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says she doesn’t think there’s a “simple, straight reflection” between support for the Government and the failure of some high-profile candidates endorsed by Labour in the local body elections.

I only see her expressing her opinion in this article ... not sure how you can call her a liar for expressing her view? She said "she thinks, that ..."Do you have any evidence that this is not what she thinks? Otherwise unfortunately it would be you lying about Ardern.

Personally I think as well that what she said in above statement makes sense. And clearly - while the results of the election no doubt point as well to a general shift of the voters mood to the (hopefully only) centre-right, there is no simple straight correlation between both. I am sure that local issues influenced the local elections as well, as they should.

I remember as well many times her opening the mouth and saying decent and correct things. Sure - I didn't always liked what she said, I often would have used different methods to solve an issue, I have seen at times ideology, racism and xenophobia over common sense controlling the actions of her government ... and clearly, we have all seen lots of incompetence to implement many of the things she promised to do.

Maybe we have seen as well over the years a small number of untruths escaping her lips - next to many misjudgements ... , but stating that she lies every times she opens her mouth is ridiculous ... and clearly wrong.

[Getty]

Is Tory Whanau - the new Mayor of Wellington - a closet right winger? I heard talk that her family may be National Party supporters.

With a name like that, she must have right wing family, or was she conceived in Tory Street?

[Getty]

With a name like that, she must have right wing family, or was she conceived in Tory Street?

She looks a bit like Carmen, so maybe Sir Bob Jones has figured somewhere in the campaign.

[fungus pudding]

Sir Bob's prediction.


https://nopunchespulled.com/2022/10/10/understanding-russia/

[dobby41]

How do you know Ardern is lying?

When she opens her mouth.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/130121928/local-government-elections-not-straight-reflection-of-support-for-the-government-ardern-says

Where was the lie in what she said?
A few terms ago local body politics swung toward the left but that didn't equate to a swing to Labour in the national election.

But noone expects you to be rational or balanced.

[iceman]

Where was the lie in what she said?
A few terms ago local body politics swung toward the left but that didn't equate to a swing to Labour in the national election.

But noone expects you to be rational or balanced.

dobby I think it is clear from the results that there is a clear swing against the Government. Remember they won almost every seat in the rural areas of the South Island in 2020. I will be surprised if we don't see most of those seats swing back to National or ACT in 2023.

Yes there was a very low voter turnout in Labour strongholds for the local elections this weekend, particularly in parts of Auckland. But if a likeable smart Pacific Island man from South Auckland with a real chance of becoming Mayor, is not enough to get the voters to fill in their forms and post them, why would they be more enthusiastic about going out to vote in Parliamentary election ?
Is it possible that the South Auckland community is now fundamentally divorced from Labour on issues close to their heart, such as religion and social cohesion ? Lets not forget either that most of the crime frequently reported such as ram raids and shootings, are predominantly happening in former Labour strongholds.
Maybe Dylan had a point, "times they are a'changin"

[Panda-NZ-]

Most people didn't even know the local elections were on, me included.

Didn't vote and got nick smith, lovely.

[iceman]

Most people didn't even know the local elections were on, me included.

Didn't vote and got nick smith, lovely.

Strange for a frequent commenter on political threads to not know about local body elections. But I suppose they weren't included in your daily missives from the Labour Party about what you should say in your posts !!
Luckily for us Nelsonians, we got Nick Smith. Hopefully he will sort out our failed council structure and shut down the stupid $46 million library madness ASAP. Then go and use his PHd in landslips to fix our most pressing and serious issues from a few weeks ago.

[Baa_Baa]

Most people didn't even know the local elections were on, me included.

Didn't vote and got nick smith, lovely.

So you are either:

- under 18
- don't watch the TV or read the news
- don't have a postal address for the forms they sent out

Or all of the above.

[Getty]

So you are either:

- under 18
- don't watch the TV or read the news
- don't have a postal address for the forms they sent out

Or all of the above.

I've often considered Panda is operating from an offshore cage.

[dobby41]

Most people didn't even know the local elections were on, me included.

Didn't vote and got nick smith, lovely.

Interesting that you'd admit to being so out of touch but still make commentary on stuff.

[ynot]

dobby I think it is clear from the results that there is a clear swing against the Government. Remember they won almost every seat in the rural areas of the South Island in 2020. I will be surprised if we don't see most of those seats swing back to National or ACT in 2023.

Yes there was a very low voter turnout in Labour strongholds for the local elections this weekend, particularly in parts of Auckland. But if a likeable smart Pacific Island man from South Auckland with a real chance of becoming Mayor, is not enough to get the voters to fill in their forms and post them, why would they be more enthusiastic about going out to vote in Parliamentary election ?
Is it possible that the South Auckland community is now fundamentally divorced from Labour on issues close to their heart, such as religion and social cohesion ? Lets not forget either that most of the crime frequently reported such as ram raids and shootings, are predominantly happening in former Labour strongholds.
Maybe Dylan had a point, "times they are a'changin"

Agreed. The last election was an aberration. The left have trouble grasping that concept. I'm sure they truly believe they are now in power indefinitely.

[Panda-NZ-]

Interesting that you'd admit to being so out of touch but still make commentary on stuff.

Or work full-time so have limited hours in the day to care about the trivial things.

[Balance]

Southland Hospital on verge of collapse - thanks to Andrew Little & co-conspirator, Ardern.

Te Whatu Ora - another Ardern centralisation disaster, costing lives.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nursing-shortage-southland-hospital-on-brink-of-collapse-cancer-care-advocate-claims/7DKLMZ2D5L5AISVKHSZHGJ4FZU/

[Getty]

Seems like Eke Panuku and the Mahuta/Ormsby whanau could apprise each other on their purpose.

[Balance]

Ardern brings the third world to NZ’s children :

Remember how she was soooooo disgusted with children living in cars?

Well, she has now gone one better - not only are children still living in cars in greater numbers than before she took office, now NZ has children eating out of garbage bags.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northland-age/news/children-found-eating-food-scraps-out-of-rubbish-bag-in-kaitaia/JDUIAP4CXG634UU2IGGG64PGUE/

"Two small children on the street, unsupervised, looking for food scraps in a rubbish bag.

It's the kind of scene you might expect to see in a third-world country, not the streets of modern-day New Zealand."

Disgusting woman = Ardern

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1630978793084-UN9ZPRBUTARIZX30L2QA/chart.jpg?format=500w

[BlackPeter]

Southland Hospital on verge of collapse - thanks to Andrew Little & co-conspirator, Ardern.

Te Whatu Ora - another Ardern centralisation disaster, costing lives.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nursing-shortage-southland-hospital-on-brink-of-collapse-cancer-care-advocate-claims/7DKLMZ2D5L5AISVKHSZHGJ4FZU/

I am afraid I have to agree - it was recent Labour politics which brought our health system down to its knees, and it is clearly not just Southland hospital. People are dying in other parts of the country as well thanks to Labours xenophobe and ideology driven policies. I guess this is the price we all have now to pay for allowing a government to block the entry of new and urgently needed healthcare workers (using MIQ and pulling or not granting visas) over the last 2 and a half years and even actively discouraging GP's and nurses from staying NZ by harassing their families.

Sure - Jacinda says healthcare workers are short all over the globe, but only Labour was idiotic enough to make the situation in NZ worse by stopping to issue visas, by pulling visas and by harassing overseas health care workers here by not allowing their family to come or by making it impossible for their families to stay. Adding the MIQ debacle was just the cherry on the poisoned cake.

Remember the British GP who left because his family here didn't got residence visas and therefore the kids could neither study nor work ...? Thanks Faafoi and thanks Labour, you could not have acted worse!

I guess this is what you expect a braindead, xenophobe and heartless government to do, but didn't Labour talked about being kind?

[winner69]

And the PM stood on a hay bale in a barn to announce all thsi ... so cute

But farmers all grumoy by sounds of it .... moaning lot .... but then we often tend to forget that primary industries essentially keep NZ afloat

Government says proposal 'would see New Zealand farmers lead the world in reducing emissions and help give NZ a competitive advantage in green conscious global marketplace'; Fed Farmers says it will 'rip the guts' out of small town NZ'


https://www.interest.co.nz/rural-news/117965/government-says-its-proposal-would-see-new-zealand-farmers-lead-world-reducing

[Balance]

I am afraid I have to agree - it was recent Labour politics which brought our health system down to its knees, and it is clearly not just Southland hospital. People are dying in other parts of the country as well thanks to Labours xenophobe and ideology driven policies. I guess this is the price we all have now to pay for allowing a government to block the entry of new and urgently needed healthcare workers (using MIQ and pulling or not granting visas) over the last 2 and a half years and even actively discouraging GP's and nurses from staying NZ by harassing their families.

Sure - Jacinda says healthcare workers are short all over the globe, but only Labour was idiotic enough to make the situation in NZ worse by stopping to issue visas, by pulling visas and by harassing overseas health care workers here by not allowing their family to come or by making it impossible for their families to stay. Adding the MIQ debacle was just the cherry on the poisoned cake.

Remember the British GP who left because his family here didn't got residence visas and therefore the kids could neither study nor work ...? Thanks Faafoi and thanks Labour, you could not have acted worse!

I guess this is what you expect a braindead, xenophobe and heartless government to do, but didn't Labour talked about being kind?

3 months after the Ardern immigration reset to allow in more essential workers, guess how many of the 21,000 nurses required to bring NZ’s healthcare system up to scratch have actually come into NZ to work?

12 - twelve - 12!

12 !

Allowing for the nurses who have left NZ for Australia, means that the number of nurses in NZ has gone backwards.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/10/revealed-just-12-nurses-have-arrived-in-new-zealand-under-government-s-controversial-residency-visa.html

[dobby41]

3 months after the Ardern immigration reset to allow in more essential workers, guess how many of the 21,000 nurses required to bring NZ’s healthcare system up to scratch have actually come into NZ to work?

12 - twelve - 12!

12 !

Allowing for the nurses who have left NZ for Australia, means that the number of nurses in NZ has gone backwards.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/10/revealed-just-12-nurses-have-arrived-in-new-zealand-under-government-s-controversial-residency-visa.html

Why is it 12?
Maybe the Govt should go overseas and press-gang some nurses onto a plane here?
Maybe the wages aren't high enough here yet - wait for the wages to go up and then everyone else complains that nurses get paid too much. Certainly, the private sector (non-public hospital) will complain that they can't compete.

[Balance]

Why is it 12?
Maybe the Govt should go overseas and press-gang some nurses onto a plane here?
Maybe the wages aren't high enough here yet - wait for the wages to go up and then everyone else complains that nurses get paid too much. Certainly, the private sector (non-public hospital) will complain that they can't compete.

Because Ardern completely and totally mismanaged the healthcare & immigration system - opening up for healthcare workers so late in the piece compared to other countries (Australia eg) so most of the available nurses have already gone to other countries.

Then, Ardern decided NZ is such a shxthot country that NZ did not have to offer residency to attract them - big big big mistake.

Processing time for an overseas nurse to get into Australia is 1 week. Compare and contrast with the months it takes in NZ to grant overseas nurses a visa.

I know this for a fact after meeting a Filipino nurse who said she was only allowed back into NZ this year to join her husband despite applying 2 years+ ago!

NZ had a great opportunity over 2020 & 2021 to allow in nurses but Ardern squandered the opportunity.

An example of how Ardern has compromised the safety and care of Patients & aged care in NZ :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/auckland-catholic-rest-home-ponders-closure-after-losing-100000month/RGEJ73DOH5VRUCCB7IOK7GOPWM/
paywalled

"We just can't get staff. It's almost like someone turned the tap off at the beginning of April this year. We couldn't recruit. We've been fortunate because the aged care workforce is one that comes here from overseas and 70 per cent of our nurses and healthcare assistants are from India, Fiji and the Philippines. Almost all the rest of the staff are made up of people from many other countries so we rely on those people coming here and we just haven't had the applications since April."

[Panda-NZ-]

3 months after the Ardern immigration reset to allow in more essential workers, guess how many of the 21,000 nurses required to bring NZ’s healthcare system up to scratch have actually come into NZ to work?

Where are the houses for them. Don't we have a housing crisis?

[Balance]

Where are the houses for them. Don't we have a housing crisis?

What happened to the 100,000 Kiwibuild homes promised by Ardern?

[Panda-NZ-]

More than made up for it by limiting housing demand.

Where will National come up with 100k new homes each year.

[iceman]

Where are the houses for them. Don't we have a housing crisis?

That's sorting itself out with the exodus of people from NZ

[iceman]

Yet another industry on it's knees due to excessive and prolonged COVID restrictions, border closures, immigration stuff ups and lack of infrastructure funding https://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/milford-sound-sees-biggest-drop-in-doc-visitor-numbers-as-outdoor-demand-cools/VXOKGNTK5REFK6V3LSGI3SV26E/

[Balance]

Hipkins attempting to obstruct the release of lockdown information by the police, and caught lying (as usual) about why he tried to obstruct its release.

Ardern’s most transparent & open government ever - NOT!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/oia-delay-on-lockdown-blunder-documents-after-seven-days-interaction-between-police-and-ministers-office/IJXYFKYKU73WVHCBLFSWYF7QZI/

New documents show there were seven working days of interaction between police headquarters and the Beehive before the release of the police file of the investigation into the women said to have sparked the Northland lockdown.

“That seven days of interaction with Hipkins' office is in contrast to the Minister's reaction when the news broke. At the time he said: "There's nothing new in the report. This was all made public at the time."

[Panda-NZ-]

Yet another industry on it's knees due to excessive and prolonged COVID restrictions, border closures, immigration stuff ups and lack of infrastructure funding https://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/milford-sound-sees-biggest-drop-in-doc-visitor-numbers-as-outdoor-demand-cools/VXOKGNTK5REFK6V3LSGI3SV26E/

Unemployment is at 3% though. Another low paying "industry" that is not necessary.

[Bjauck]

Or work full-time so have limited hours in the day to care about the trivial things. I was busy too but we got two electoral letters each. The first to check enrolment details; the second with voting papers.

[Bjauck]

More than made up for it by limiting housing demand.

Where will National come up with 100k new homes each year. I can't speak for any future govt, but in the past both Lab and Nat housing policies have been stuffed, bringing us to where we are now. During Ardern's terms in office The RB and she have overseen policies that have made NZ houses much more expensive. The pandemic door was shut for too long to keen immigrants. Now there are labour shortages. Many newer immigrants also seem to skip to Australia for housing and cost of living reasons too. If you need carers, either medical or acc, good luck getting regular help when needed.

[ynot]

More than made up for it by limiting housing demand.

Where will National come up with 100k new homes each year.

You give the impression you think limiting house demand is a good thing .

[Panda-NZ-]

I generally think less people is a desirable thing, esp for the environment.

[Balance]

Another day, another hospital under pressure and health of patients compromised - thanks to clueless & useless Ardern & her head in the sand incompetent Andrew Little.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/whangarei-hospital-nurse-says-staff-shortages-affecting-patient-safety/5OQVTKJ6G2ZSFFAZOA4A5IDCEQ/

Ardern = disgusting woman

[ynot]

I generally think less people is a desirable thing, esp for the environment.

Do not know how you can justify environmental concerns over housing needs for struggling young kiwi families attempting to own a home. Pie in the sky waffle.

[Panda-NZ-]

Do not know how you can justify environmental concerns over housing needs for struggling young kiwi families attempting to own a home. Pie in the sky waffle.


They can take up the existing homes as they are doing now.

No need to build more & presumably import all your construction workers to do it (who have to live somewhere too).

[Balance]

Prophetic assessment in 2017 of Ardern, the clueless and useless spin mistress :

https://fee.org/articles/new-zealand-s-new-pm-is-clueless-about-capitalism/

[BlackPeter]

Prophetic assessment in 2017 of Ardern, the clueless and useless spin mistress :

https://fee.org/articles/new-zealand-s-new-pm-is-clueless-about-capitalism/

Pretty clueless article without any relevant research. The ideologically impaired author takes one statement out of context - and still gets it wrong.

History quite clearly demonstrates that pure capitalism leads to as undesirable results as pure communism. Both systems result in a small powerful and rich leading class and the rest of the population will live in deprived circumstances. If you want to see the ugly face of capitalism, look no further than e.g. Chile under Pinochet or Brazil under Bolzonaro.

The best living conditions world wide are in systems which pick the beneficial elements of the capitalist system (personal responsibility) with the beneficial elements of a social system (a social net for the people in need).

While NZ is clearly far away from both communism as well as (pure) capitalism, she is right that the market in NZ failed poor people. What would be wrong with her statement? It clearly did.

Obviously - she could have added that her government will fail the poor people as well (as it did), but this is a different subject.

[Panda-NZ-]

Obviously - she could have added that her government will fail the poor people as well (as it did), but this is a different subject.

Ironically because she kept to the market system.. ie many people here are richer but still complain about her.

[BlackPeter]

Ironically because she kept to the market system.. ie many people here are richer but still complain about her.

Correlation is not the same as causation. Personally I think that she failed to implement many (or all?) of the things she promised due to ideological blindness and an incredible incompetence to turn pie in the sky promises into actions and facts.

Lets face it - while she is quite able to burn funds by throwing money at problems, she seems to be unable to use these funds to achieve desirable (and promised) outcomes.

This has nothing to do with capitalism, it is just plain incompetence. While she may or may not be a nice woman, and while she clearly can give nice heart warming speeches .... she is not fit to do her current job as the leader of a country.

Don't blame capitalism (or the market based system) for her failures.

[Panda-NZ-]

You can't blame her for international issues though.

1M NZers in addition, prefer Australia's more balanced approach to workplace relations.

[Panda-NZ-]

In contrast you have some complaining about one extra day of Public holiday.

[BlackPeter]

In contrast you have some complaining about one extra day of Public holiday.

Sigh, what has this to do with it?

You are clearly running out of arguments ... I feel with you. Pretty sure, Ardern feels similarly miserable :) ;

[Bill Smith]

In contrast you have some complaining about one extra day of Public holiday.

Yet you are so removed from NZ society that you didn't know that the LB elections were on. My guess is that you have never been in charge of anything bigger than a wheelbarrow, and as such, have no idea whether a complaint about an extra non-productive day is justified or not.

[Panda-NZ-]

Sigh, what has this to do with it?

You are clearly running out of arguments ... I feel with you. Pretty sure, Ardern feels similarly miserable :) ;

She has given us more public holidays and it applies for everyone.

It's a well deserved break so I might find out what "local elections" are which 60% of NZers have a similar issue with.

[Getty]

Yet you are so removed from NZ society that you didn't know that the LB elections were on. My guess is that you have never been in charge of anything bigger than a wheelbarrow, and as such, have no idea whether a complaint about an extra non-productive day is justified or not.

One thing to be learnt from pushing barrows, is that the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

[Bjauck]

You can't blame her for international issues though.

1M NZers in addition, prefer Australia's more balanced approach to workplace relations.
That could be a factor. Proportionately, in Australia housing does not suck up as much of their equity so there are much bigger entrepreneurial capital and share markets supporting so many successful capitalist companies. So kiwis also like the increased availability of jobs with higher salaries (and the higher standard of living too?)

[Balance]

Ardern’s failure to deliver on anything is testimony to how prophetically accurate the writer was about what a useless and clueless leader she is.

[dobby41]

Do not know how you can justify environmental concerns over housing needs for struggling young kiwi families attempting to own a home. Pie in the sky waffle.

Because the planet is long term?

[ynot]

Because the planet is long term?
And struggling Kiwis don't count ?

[dobby41]

And struggling Kiwis don't count ?

Quite a few struggled in Nelson and other areas with the floods.
It's about balance, isn't it?

[tim23]

You can't blame her for international issues though.

1M NZers in addition, prefer Australia's more balanced approach to workplace relations.
Don’t worry they will blame the PM for that and probably anything else the haters can come up with. Maybe the garbage weather?😀

[westerly]

Correlation is not the same as causation. Personally I think that she failed to implement many (or all?) of the things she promised due to ideological blindness and an incredible incompetence to turn pie in the sky promises into actions and facts.

Lets face it - while she is quite able to burn funds by throwing money at problems, she seems to be unable to use these funds to achieve desirable (and promised) outcomes.

This has nothing to do with capitalism, it is just plain incompetence. While she may or may not be a nice woman, and while she clearly can give nice heart warming speeches .... she is not fit to do her current job as the leader of a country.

Don't blame capitalism (or the market based system) for her failures.

You make it sound like she is a dictator like Putin. She speaks for a Cabinet who I assume agree with what she says.

westerly

[JBmurc]

In the year 2020, the Lord came unto Noah, who was now living in NZ and said: "Once again, the earth has become wicked and over-populated, and I see the end of all flesh before me.

Build another Ark and save 2 of every living thing along with a few good humans."
He gave Noah the blueprints, saying:
"You have 6 months to build the Ark before I will start the unending rain for 40 days and 40 nights."
Six months later, the Lord looked down and saw Noah weeping in his yard - but no Ark.
Noah!," He roared, "I'm about to start the rain! Where is the Ark?"
"Forgive me, Lord," begged Noah, "but things have changed."

"I needed a Building Permit."
"I've been arguing with the Boat Inspector about the need for a sprinkler system."
"My neighbours claim that I've violated the Neighbourhood Bye-Laws by building the Ark in my back garden and exceeding the height limitations.
We had to go to the Local Planning Committee for a decision."
"Then the Local Council and the Electricity Company demanded a shed load of money for the future costs of moving power lines and other overhead obstructions, to clear the passage for the Ark's move to the sea.
I told them that the sea would be coming to us, but they would hear nothing of it."

"Getting the wood was another problem.
There's a ban on cutting local trees in order to save the Greater Spotted Barn Owl."
"I tried to convince the environmentalists that I needed the wood to save the owls - but no go!"
"When I started gathering the animals the RSPCA took me to court.
They insisted that I was confining wild animals against their will.

They argued the accommodations were too restrictive, and it was cruel and inhumane to put so many animals in a confined space."
"Then the NZ Environmental Agency ruled that I couldn't build the Ark until they'd conducted an environmental impact study on your proposed flood."
"I'm still trying to resolve a complaint with the Human Rights Commission on how many minorities I'm supposed to hire for my building gang."
"Immigration are checking the Visa status of most of the people who want to work."
"The trades unions say I can't use my sons.

They insist I have to hire only Union workers with Ark-building experience."
"To make matters worse, the Inland Revenue seized all my assets, claiming I'm trying to leave the country illegally with endangered species."
"So, forgive me, Lord, but it will take at least 10 years for me to finish this Ark."
"Suddenly the skies cleared, the sun began to shine, and a rainbow stretched across the sky."
Noah looked up in wonder and asked,
"You mean you're not going to destroy the world?"

"No," said the Lord.

" The Government beat me to it."

[Getty]

The Lord had a previous disappointment when he looked down on the Labour Govt. and couldn't find any good men, definitely no wise ones, nor any virgins.

They can all go to Hell.

[BlackPeter]

You make it sound like she is a dictator like Putin. She speaks for a Cabinet who I assume agree with what she says.

westerly

Communication 101: First check what the other side really said before you accuse them of saying what you want to hear :p ;

Analysis 101: First check the context before you jump on a very flimsy indicator and run with it.

Behavioral science 101: Never project your views onto other people and claim they are theirs. That's what populists like Trump and Johnson are doing. Do you really think she is a dictator like Putin?

Unfortunately, you fail miserably in all three disciplines ... I am wondering whether this might partially explain your political blinkers ;) ;

[Panda-NZ-]

Thanks for the dissertation professor BP.


The Lord had a previous disappointment when he looked down on the Labour Govt. and couldn't find any good men, definitely no wise ones, nor any virgins.

They can all go to Hell.

The Lord made her PM twice & blessed NZ with a world leading corona response.

[Getty]

[QUOTE=Panda-NZ-;
The Lord made her PM twice & blessed NZ with a world leading corona response.[/QUOTE]

Ah well, I suppose even he has off days and the odd error of judgement.

[Panda-NZ-]

Ah well, I suppose even he has off days and the odd error of judgement.

So his decisions aren't perfect?.. heathen.

[ynot]

Ah well, I suppose even he has off days and the odd error of judgement.

Likewise most voting Kiwis will not repeat that judgement error next year. Now that we have had time to to understand her hidden agenda.

[Panda-NZ-]

Sounds like a conspiracy theory, where can voters find this hidden agenda*?

*which is not so hidden if you know all about it.

[fungus pudding]

Ah well, I suppose even he has off days and the odd error of judgement.

Yep - he's made a couple of doozies lately; what with Putin, Covid, the Labour govt and the weather!

[Getty]

More overnight ramming and raiding in Auckland overnight.

More demoralised shop owners.
More increased insurance premiums for everybody.

Wasn't the social welfare system and minimum wage supposed to stop all the theft, never mind the damage that now goes with it?

Just transfer the cost to us Jacinda, while you be kind to the crims.

[BlackPeter]

More overnight ramming and raiding in Auckland overnight.

More demoralised shop owners.
More increased insurance premiums for everybody.

Wasn't the social welfare system and minimum wage supposed to stop all the theft, never mind the damage that now goes with it?

Just transfer the cost to us Jacinda, while you be kind to the crims.

As previously discussed - a sorry development, but this is a societal problem National and Labour worked hand in hand to create. Both worked hard to break down traditional family values and destroying our once pristine education system. Both worked hand in hand to remove societies role to guide and shape our youth. Both worked hand in hand to create larger and larger clusters of young people who never had to suffer consequences for bad behaviour and who see as well no future for themselves. I guess this is what you get if parties are just trying to trump each other in being populist. Worst of all worlds.

Yes, we have a problem, but just blaming one party and voting for the other party won't fix it.

[Getty]

The solution is very simple and inexpensive.

All raiders taken straight to the local fire station, and hung by their testicles on the hose tower for 5 hours.
Repeat offences, noose around the neck.

No new prisons, court houses, social workers, leg bracelets or any other burden on tax payers.

Crime plummets.

Ayatollah Ardern can put her hijab, and preside if she wishes.
Then she would have something to tell the UN.

Anyone who thinks you can't do this in a civilized society needs to wake up.

Your goodwill and decency is being preyed upon by parasites.

Many of the shop owners have come from overseas, and they know that crime is not tolerated, and the rest of society punished instead, as it is in New Zimbabwe!

[Panda-NZ-]

Move towards a cashless society.

All transactions can be traced - how did you suddenly find this money while having no job etc.

[Getty]

Well meaning comment, but not understanding the problem.
They are not stealing money, but jewelry etc for barter for drugs etc, but also notoriety through social media.

No shame, but a tourniquet around the testicles....

[BlackPeter]

The solution is very simple and inexpensive.

All raiders taken straight to the local fire station, and hung by their testicles on the hose tower for 5 hours.
Repeat offences, noose around the neck.

No new prisons, court houses, social workers, leg bracelets or any other burden on tax payers.

Crime plummets.

Ayatollah Ardern can put her hijab, and preside if she wishes.
Then she would have something to tell the UN.

Anyone who thinks you can't do this in a civilized society needs to wake up.

Your goodwill and decency is being preyed upon by parasites.

Many of the shop owners have come from overseas, and they know that crime is not tolerated, and the rest of society punished instead, as it is in New Zimbabwe!

There is just one issue with simple solutions to fix complex problems ... they never work.

Crime rate in the UK during the 13th to 19th century (where people where hanged for minor offences or later - if lucky - sent to the colonies - was much higher than our crime rate in NZ these days.

14242

Do you really propose to get back into these dark times with high crime rate and lynch justice ruling?

[Panda-NZ-]

People are getting the message that Labour is soft on crime though.

Bring Stuart nash back as police minister rather than a flake like Poto Williams.

Then home raid the raiders.

[Getty]

There is just one issue with simple solutions to fix complex problems ... they never work.

Crime rate in the UK during the 18th / 19th century (where people where hanged for minor offences or - if lucky - sent to the colonies - was much higher than our crime rate in NZ these days.

Do you really propose to get back into these dark times with high crime rate and lynch justice ruling?

The 18/19th century didn't have the social welfare support of 2022 to give everyone a safety net and some dignity.

People back then did steal the proverbial loaf of bread for survival, not to reshuffle the budget priority on so called recreational drugs.

My suggestions are on the surface dark and retrograde, but what else is simple, and most importantly deterrent, without further traumatising victims and costing more?

I don't particularly want to see youth hanging by their testicles, but guess what, nor do they!!!

And therein lies the solution!

Not the current slap over the hand with a wet bus ticket, if you are caught.

[BlackPeter]

People are getting the message that Labour is soft on crime though.

Bring Stuart nash back as police minister rather than a flake like Poto Williams.

Then home raid the raiders.

Aren't you a bit behind the ball? I thought the Minister of Police is Chris Hipkins?

[Panda-NZ-]

Aren't you a bit behind the ball? I thought the Minister of Police is Chris Hipkins?

Another recent appointment for the minister of everything.

Give it back to Stu he did good with the gun buyback and dealing with the gangs.

[BlackPeter]

The 18/19th century didn't have the social welfare support of 2022 to give everyone a safety net and some dignity.

People back then did steal the proverbial loaf of bread for survival, not to reshuffle the budget priority on so called recreational drugs.

My suggestions are on the surface dark and retrograde, but what else is simple, and most importantly deterrent, without further traumatising victims and costing more?

I don't particularly want to see youth hanging by their testicles, but guess what, nor do they!!!

And therein lies the solution!

Look - I know it is easy and populist to suggest some cruel and unusual punishments dished out basically by a lynch mob (which includes Islamic mullahs, any police not controlled by a truly independent justice system and whoever runs Somalia). Just drink enough spirits and the idea looks great until you get the inevitable hangover.

It's just - there are some countries which operate that way (e.g. Somalia, Iran, ISIS controlled areas) ... and to be honest, I would not want to live (or even visit) any of them.

The system does not seem to improve the well being of its citizens.

Would you really want to live there?

[ynot]

People are getting the message that Labour is soft on crime though.

Bring Stuart nash back as police minister rather than a flake like Poto Williams.

Then home raid the raiders.
"
Do you not agree with Labour's soft on crime policy Panda ? Maybe there is hope for you yet !

[Getty]

Look - I know it is easy and populist to suggest some cruel and unusual punishments dished out basically by a lynch mob (which includes Islamic mullahs, any police not controlled by a truly independent justice system and whoever runs Somalia). Just drink enough spirits and the idea looks great until you get the inevitable hangover.

It's just - there are some countries which operate that way (e.g. Somalia, Iran, ISIS controlled areas) ... and to be honest, I would not want to live (or even visit) any of them.

The system does not seem to improve the well being of its citizens.

Would you really want to live there?

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind, and that is what Jacinda must learn.

We can mention Iran, Somalia etc but all lack the social welfare and progress of NZ, so no need to regress to their total level just because we may hang up a few by their testicles here.

But if we keep our eyes wide open, and see the lawlessness and smashing going on in Auckland, are we really any better than those countries in that regard?

Singapore gets criticism for some of their laws and strict code, but women feel safer alone in the street there at night, than high and mighty NZ.

Any way, all suggestions welcome to improve NZ.

[westerly]

Communication 101: First check what the other side really said before you accuse them of saying what you want to hear :p ;

Analysis 101: First check the context before you jump on a very flimsy indicator and run with it.

Behavioral science 101: Never project your views onto other people and claim they are theirs. That's what populists like Trump and Johnson are doing. Do you really think she is a dictator like Putin?

Unfortunately, you fail miserably in all three disciplines ... I am wondering whether this might partially explain your political blinkers ;) ;

Come down from your ivory tower. You said 7 times " she " followed by some negative fault on her part.
I do not think she is a dictator but suggested your post implied this.

westerly

[Panda-NZ-]

We can mention Iran, Somalia etc but all lack the social welfare and progress of NZ, so no need to regress to their total level just because we may hang up a few by their testicles here.


Iran used to be pretty advanced until a religiously inclined group of individuals took over.

Sound familiar? Hopefully it wont apply here.

[Getty]

Iran used to be pretty advanced until a religiously inclined group of individuals took over.

Sound familiar? Hopefully it wont apply here.

Yes, maybe Jacinda is preparing you of her intent when she puts on her hijab?

You will be in a tent.

[BlackPeter]

Come down from your ivory tower. You said 7 times " she " followed by some negative fault on her part.
I do not think she is a dictator but suggested your post implied this.

westerly

Well, to the best of my knowledge she is a woman, so the pronoun "she" should be appropriate - or requires political correctness us these days to ignore its sex?

I take your word for me mentioning her 7 times ... but yes, as a PM she has a lot of flaws a good PM should not have.

However - this does not mean that she is a dictator, and I never said or implied that.

If you would follow this and the Jacinda thread you would even be aware that I just recently defended her against others calling her an authoritarian.


Look, I am not a Jacinda Ardern fan, and I never was ... though admittedly - my view of her government (and her skills to run it and to do what she promised to do) sobered up a lot during the years of her reign.

I don't think either that she is a particularly good PM (though probably the best NZ could choose at the last election ... the best out of a really bad bunch).

However - I find it absolutely wrong and pretty revolting to put her into the same category of people like e.g. Putin and Xi - authoritarians and the worst scum the human race can produce. Ardern is not an authoritarian (no matter how convoluted Mr Greenwald chooses to express this view), and she is not making authoritarian statements. Come next election - and assuming she loses (which I think there is a good chance), than I am sure, she will be gone by whatever point in time our law requires the loser of the election to. She is a democrat. Maybe not one I fully agree with, but this is the beauty of democracy - we can pick these people and we can drop them as well. Full stop.

She is a (in my view and in general) well meaning politician, who shows more and more that she is not capable to do the things she promised to do and intended to do. So, yes - call her inept, but don't call her an authoritarian.

She seems to be as well more caught in a populist and an ideological bubble than I expected - I found the xenophobe attitude of her government over the last handful of years disgusting and I found it appalling that they happily destroyed the livelihoods of thousands of migrants and other people trusting a NZ visa. She clearly did a lot to damage our reputation with people our economy now needs. But again - she followed our laws - and she is certainly not the first democratic politician trying to utilize a crisis to push as well her hidden agenda. Call her populist, call her ideologically blind sided, call her inept to do her job, call her arrogant (typically comes with power), but don't call her authoritarian.

If you go a bit further back, you might even discover that I said at times as well nice things about her .. and I meant that.

Other than you am I not ideological blind on one eye and I can see good as well as bad things without ideological impairment.

[jonu]

Pfizer have admitted to the Dutch parliamentary committtee that they didn't test transmission prevention on their vaccine ahead of release. Yet transmission prevention was a major plank in vaccine mandates across the world. Governments and media worldwide parroted this to their populations.
Our own government and media among them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6VbI8gOnUM

Let the resignations, lawsuits and prosecutions begin.

[Getty]

Pfizer have admitted to the Dutch parliamentary committtee that they didn't test transmission prevention on their vaccine ahead of release. Yet transmission prevention was a major plank in vaccine mandates across the world. Governments and media worldwide parroted this to their populations.
Our own government and media among them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6VbI8gOnUM

Let the resignations, lawsuits and prosecutions begin.

OUCH!

That's going to inject some life into Covid.

[Blue Skies]

"
Do you not agree with Labour's soft on crime policy Panda ? Maybe there is hope for you yet !


This is the most stunningly cynical irrational drivel dished up by National to win votes from ignorant voters who are angry & enraged about something & looking for someone to offer anything that looks like a quick fix.
Get to know how the legal system works, otherwise you're just being taken for a ride by a cynical party who know there's always a few votes campaigning hard on the 'soft on crime' narrative. It's just hot air.

The government of the day ( any government, not Labour or National or ACT ) can not direct the police who to arrest & charge, nor can they interfere with the sentencing of the (judges) courts.

Labour hasn't changed any laws or sentencing parameters, they're exactly the same as when National was last in government.
The only thing they've done is repeal the 3 Strikes law, which led to the courts being forced to sentence an intellectually impaired person to prison for going up to a stranger in public & kissing her.

The courts don't want to put these kids in prison as thats a one way ticket to joining a gang & a life of crime.

Remember famously under Police Minister Crusher Collins, just one car got crushed in 9 years!
And remember National made all those cuts & closed down all those Police Stations including the one in lower Queen St in Auckland which was ridiculous.

[Getty]

Remember famously under Police Minister Crusher Collins, just one car got crushed in 9 years!.

My testicle hangings will probably produce a similar number, but ah, the crime reduction...

[Balance]

This is the most stunningly cynical irrational drivel dished up by National to win votes from ignorant voters who are angry & enraged about something & looking for someone to offer anything that looks like a quick fix.
Get to know how the legal system works, otherwise you're just being taken for a ride by a cynical party who know there's always a few votes campaigning hard on the 'soft on crime' narrative. It's just hot air.

The government of the day ( any government, not Labour or National or ACT ) can not direct the police who to arrest & charge, nor can they interfere with the sentencing of the (judges) courts.

Labour hasn't changed any laws or sentencing parameters, they're exactly the same as …. Blah blah rubbish rubbish garbage …

Garbage from BS as usual.

Remember how concerned and frightened Aucklanders were told to ring crime stopper when they heard gun fire and shootings? Crimestopper! You cannot make the stuff up!

Then when the police wanted to be armed more often while patrolling well know crime areas like South Auckland, the reply was no as the police minister was more concerned about Labour’s voters there than the safety & effectiveness of the police.

“I’m not giving the them the time of day. I’m talking about the communities I represent - which is the Māori and Pacific communities - who told me loud and clear the general arming of police and especially the ARTs are a real concern to them.” Poto Williams, Police Minister

[Balance]

And don’t ever forget how this Ardern government prioritises anti-social & criminal elements over law abiding citizens :

No eviction policy of Housing NZ resulting in criminal activities of thuggery, victimisation and intimidation of other tenants and neighbours.

Ministers hobnobbing with Maori gangs, legitimising their criminal activities.

Handing over monies to gangs for all sort of activities, including for changing Tattoos from NZ to Aotearoa.

Police harassing law abiding citizens at pandemic roadblocks while closing both eyes and allowing convoys of gangs and thugs through.

Soft on crime? That’s putting it mildly!!!

[Getty]

Aren't you a bit behind the ball? I thought the Minister of Police is Chris Hipkins?

May be just coincidence, but since Hippys in charge, Police Ten Seven is back to its earlier time slot, and the faces are brown again.

[tim23]

May be just coincidence, but since Hippys in charge, Police Ten Seven is back to its earlier time slot, and the faces are brown again.

Coincidence I think your imagination is a little to active - I wish they would call them scumbags again😀

[Bjauck]

A labour government for 5 years now and still NZ is at an abysmal 136th position for tax fairness according to Oxfam.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/the-front-page-wealth-tax-vs-tax-cuts-which-option-is-the-best-for-nz/3EWLGXC2H7GMU2OFMGK32GJLTU/

[fungus pudding]

A labour government for 5 years now and still NZ is at an abysmal 136th position for tax fairness according to Oxfam.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/the-front-page-wealth-tax-vs-tax-cuts-which-option-is-the-best-for-nz/3EWLGXC2H7GMU2OFMGK32GJLTU/

'Fairness' as far as tax goes - it's impossible to come up with a definition that is generally accepted as 'fair'. e.g. I think unless it's flat, i.e. everyone taxed at the same %, it cannot be called fair. But many think everyone apart from themselves should pay more, which is why the hoi polloi support progressve taxation - so there is no agreement of 'fair tax'. But it's certainly nothing like what Oxfam think.

[Panda-NZ-]

It is flat currently though given the unequal impacts of GST.

Though if you consider capital gains as "income" it's probably regressive overall.

[Balance]

And don’t ever forget how this Ardern government prioritises anti-social & criminal elements over law abiding citizens :

No eviction policy of Housing NZ resulting in criminal activities of thuggery, victimisation and intimidation of other tenants and neighbours.

Ministers hobnobbing with Maori gangs, legitimising their criminal activities.

Handing over monies to gangs for all sort of activities, including for changing Tattoos from NZ to Aotearoa.

Police harassing law abiding citizens at pandemic roadblocks while closing both eyes and allowing convoys of gangs and thugs through.

Soft on crime? That’s putting it mildly!!!

Ram Raids under Ardern & Labour :

There has been a 400 percent increase in ram raids in five years - and 76 percent of those being caught are under the age of 18. Data released to RNZ under the Official Information Act showed in the 12 months until July the police recorded 436 ram raids.

And what is the government doing about it?

A $6m ram raid fund (yes, a miserly $6m vs $56m wasted on Auckland bike bridge & $30m 'cost of living' monies given to overseas recipients).

But months after the fund was promised, not a cent has been paid out to provide protection!

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/progr...emains-unspent

"But in an Official Information Act response, received on Thursday, prevention, innovation and change director Mere Wilson Tuala-Fata said: "No money has been paid out of this fund yet".

All talk and no action.

All spin and no delivery.

Labour & Ardern = Pro Crime & Soft on Crime

[Balance]

So again, the Official Information Act had to be used re ram raids to prise the information from the ‘most transparent & open’ government ever.

A government failing on every front and having to use every means possible to try and hide the truth about the failures from the public.

[BlackPeter]

So again, the Official Information Act had to be used re ram raids to prise the information from the ‘most transparent & open’ government ever.

A government failing on every front and having to use every means possible to try and hide the truth about the failures from the public.

So - Ram raids are clearly booming. I agree, this is a bad look, particularly if it looks like the government is not doing a lot about it (but talking).

However, your criticism is clearly more general. Would you like to provide some balance (look what I did there) and give us as well the overall youth crime trend over the last 5 years?

In case you didn't know - youth crime is dropping (despite the Ram Raids, and yes - not just in NZ). Here is a great webpage where you can educate yourself to provide a bit of balance:

https://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/research/child-and-youth-offending-patterns/index.html



Offending by children aged 10-13 years has dropped in the last five years for both genders, across all ethnic groups and ages, across almost all offence types, and in all regions.

A falling youth crime rate is not unique to New Zealand, and the reasons for the fall are unclear and therefore subject to debate.

Much of the drop in offending by children in New Zealand has been because fewer children are becoming offenders in the first place – a very positive finding.


So the question is - with which particular policies do you think Labour supported the Ram Raids, while overall reducing Youth Crime?

What do you propose they change without increasing the overall rate of Youth Crime - and why?

[Bjauck]

'Fairness' as far as tax goes - it's impossible to come up with a definition that is generally accepted as 'fair'. e.g. I think unless it's flat, i.e. everyone taxed at the same %, it cannot be called fair. But many think everyone apart from themselves should pay more, which is why the hoi polloi support progressve taxation - so there is no agreement of 'fair tax'. But it's certainly nothing like what Oxfam think. A flat tax on what? On all income but not on capital gains or wealth. Is that fair? On all goods and services but no stamp duties? I Don’t think it is difficult to determine fairness.

[fungus pudding]

A flat tax on what? On all income but not on capital gains or wealth. Is that fair? On all goods and services but no stamp duties? I Don’t think it is difficult to determine fairness.

Bang on - flat tax on income, but no tax on capital gains and no stamp-duty. GST is fine as is. You might not think it is difficult to determine fairness - neither did Robin Hood.

[Panda-NZ-]

Bang on - flat tax on income, but no tax on capital gains and no stamp-duty. GST is fine as is. You might not think it is difficult to determine fairness - neither did Robin Hood.

Sounds like the russian approach.

[BlackPeter]

Bang on - flat tax on income, but no tax on capital gains and no stamp-duty. GST is fine as is. You might not think it is difficult to determine fairness - neither did Robin Hood.

Mmh - I guess what you describe might sound "fair" to some of the "haves"... but certainly not to everyone.

Robin Hood on the other hand took from the Rich to give it to the Poor (and to pay for his own upkeep) - and his "taxes" have been neither flat (except you call 100% of what you are carrying flat) nor fair (given that he only taxed some of the people who happened to travel through Sherwood Forest).

I would consider a tax system as fair if it is considering all sources of income (including realised capital gains minus inflation, though accepting that we need enough pragmatism to make sure that the effort of assessment is not higher than the amount gained) and as well making sure we do not tax the necessities of life. Why would we tax income which afterwards needs to be replaced with benefits for a person to survive?

[Bjauck]

Bang on - flat tax on income, but no tax on capital gains and no stamp-duty. GST is fine as is. You might not think it is difficult to determine fairness - neither did Robin Hood.
Quite arbitrary. I must look for my tights. I am not surprised you side with the Norman French aristocrat landlords ;)

[fungus pudding]

Quite arbitrary. I must look for my tights. I am not surprised you side with the Norman French aristocrat landlords ;)

The world's not fair. Life's not fair. No tax system can change that. If you can't accept that, give God a call and have a grizzle.

[Bjauck]

The world's not fair. Life's not fair. No tax system can change that. If you can't accept that, give God a call and have a grizzle.
LOL. That sounds like the stock “argument” against any reform.

[nztx]

The world's not fair. Life's not fair. No tax system can change that. If you can't accept that, give God a call and have a grizzle.


Could be a long wait - my friend :)

I think God's real busy ATM elsewhere ..

[Balance]

How much has crime increased in NZ?

https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/19-07-2022/how-much-has-crime-really-increased

Almost every part of the country has experienced double digit increases in the frequency of crime compared to before the pandemic.

[Getty]

Labour gave full benefits to single mothers who previously would not name the father of their children, so those tomcats can contribute to family support.

In answer to a direct question on this mornings The Hui, Minister Sepuloni answered a total of 64000 kids were included in that change.

Get rooted NZ while the rooters continue unabashed and not responsible.

Thanks Labour.

[Balance]

‘Seeds of apartheid’ - Winston has read the mood of the vast majority of the electorate out there, sick of having separatism and favouritism towards one race shoved down their throats.


Done by Ardern for votes - not to lift the majority of Maoris and NZers up to greater and better standards in all things.

Watch this become the biggest election issue of 2023.

Winston will not benefit from it as he is the one who installed Ardern & her mob into power.

Ardern & Labour have no defence and will get swept out of office.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nz-firsts-winston-peters-decries-seeds-of-apartheid-in-leaders-address/HG3UBJKCYCASL4AWK43DN4BGVI/

"What's going on in this country is straight-out racism and I'm against it and so are my colleagues."

[nztx]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nz-firsts-winston-peters-decries-seeds-of-apartheid-in-leaders-address/HG3UBJKCYCASL4AWK43DN4BGVI/


On Three Waters reform, Peters described the plan as "retarded theft".

So says Mr "Don't Blame Me" ;)

[iceman]

The Prime Ministers refers to a report from MSD and says child poverty is going down as the reports says slightly fewer children are experiencing hardship.
She conveniently forgets to mention that the report does not count children living in hotels, motels, caravans & cars. No shame

[iceman]

How much has crime increased in NZ?

https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/19-07-2022/how-much-has-crime-really-increased

Almost every part of the country has experienced double digit increases in the frequency of crime compared to before the pandemic.

A direct result of weaker sentencing laws to reduce the prison population

[Balance]

The Prime Ministers refers to a report from MSD and says child poverty is going down as the reports says slightly fewer children are experiencing hardship.
She conveniently forgets to mention that the report does not count children living in hotels, motels, caravans & cars. No shame

To be expected from the clueless and useless mistress of BS & spin.

Disgusting woman.

[BlackPeter]

A direct result of weaker sentencing laws to reduce the prison population

With all due respect ... I think it is more complicated.

The US do have a shockingly high crime rate (well, for any western country) - despite having as well the harshest penalties in the Western world. They have as well a rather high proportion of innocent people in their jails - even 10% on death row are innocent. Do they need harsher sentences?

We do need an effective criminal system (i.e. criminals can rely on being caught). We need a competent police force you can trust (i.e. without bias, without hidden corruption, without favouring buddies). We need a court system which produces fair sentences in months, not unfair sentences in years.

We don't need policemen planting evidence because they think somebody is guilty, and we don't need courts locking up innocent people for many years just because somebody must pay.

In general - we don't need harsher sentences, we need better (i.e. fairer) sentences for the offenders and a better system to distinguish between the guilty and the innocent.

And - we do need to grow a society which is growing less prison birds. We need to support family values, we need to help families to rear children, we need to provide a supportive environment helping these children to do the right thing and we need to educate in our schools responsible citizens.

This is what we need, not harsher penalties for the unlucky ones which are caught by the system (whether they are guilty of not).

[Blue Skies]

A direct result of weaker sentencing laws to reduce the prison population


That's suitably vague!
What weaker sentencing laws ? Give us a few examples where sentences have been changed.
I can't think of any.

The only thing was the repeal of the 3 Strikes law, which didn't reduce or weaken the judges ability to impose the maximum sentence but allowed them discretion where circumstances dictated it was justified, e.g. the mentally impaired chap who had to be given a prison sentence for trying to kiss a stranger in public, under the 3 Strikes law.

[Bjauck]

I think many who want harsher penalties are quite sanguine about the costs associated with having a more divided society of extremes, with a larger prison population American-style. Provided “we” have the luxuries and “feel” safe from “them”.

[iceman]

Agree with almost all of your post BP. But I do not agree with what is happening now, which is the use of so called “cultural reports” that reduce sentences in a big way, for mainly criminals of Maori descent. Handing out sentences and leniency based on race is disgraceful and leaves more criminals in our communities, unafraid of being caught.

[BlackPeter]

Agree with almost all of your post BP. But I do not agree with what is happening now, which is the use of so called “cultural reports” that reduce sentences in a big way, for mainly criminals of Maori descent. Handing out sentences and leniency based on race is disgraceful and leaves more criminals in our communities, unafraid of being caught.

If this is what is happening I would need to agree. I was not aware of that, but hey - I can't be everywhere :) ;

Do you have any sources to read more about this race based justice you are describing?

[iceman]

If this is what is happening I would need to agree. I was not aware of that, but hey - I can't be everywhere :) ;

Do you have any sources to read more about this race based justice you are describing?

I base it on a lengthy conversation with a barrister friend and reports from a close family member who works in one of our District Courts. I am shocked at what’s happening but hey, Labour promised to reduce the prison population.
https://www.act.org.nz/press-releases/act-would-remove-cultural-background-reports-for-sentencing

[Getty]

I base it on a lengthy conversation with a barrister friend and reports from a close family member who works in one of our District Courts. I am shocked at what’s happening but hey, Labour promised to reduce the prison population.
https://www.act.org.nz/press-releases/act-would-remove-cultural-background-reports-for-sentencing

I thought this was common knowledge under Labour's New Zimbabwe regime.

[iceman]

I thought this was common knowledge under Labour's New Zimbabwe regime.

So did I !!

[BlackPeter]

I base it on a lengthy conversation with a barrister friend and reports from a close family member who works in one of our District Courts. I am shocked at what’s happening but hey, Labour promised to reduce the prison population.
https://www.act.org.nz/press-releases/act-would-remove-cultural-background-reports-for-sentencing

Again, if this is what is happening, than I agree - this is not good and needs to be changed. However - in this case its not about tougher sentences, but it is about everybody getting the fair sentence, no matter what their race, gender or nationality. That's the reason Justicia is blind folded ....

You have my full support on that.

Not so sure about the ACT source ... while I used to like some of their policies, others made me wonder about their sound judgement. Just because they perceive (or claim) there is a problem, does not mean that it is, and it certainly does not mean that they have the right solution.

Just remembering their atrocious (and highly unfair) 3 strikes policy ... and find it really hard to take anybody supporting our gun lobby serious. Maybe I should, but then I would fight them.

ACT used to be once a liberal and decent party with the goal to further the common good (wasn't it the Association of Consumers and Taxpayers?). These days they appear to be more a collection of fringe groups lobbying for their own selfish goals, like gun rights (Aka NRA) and tougher penalties (sensible sentencing just in name) without looking at and understanding the real problems.

Simple solutions for complex problems do not work. Just another populist party.

[Getty]

Labour gave full benefits to single mothers who previously would not name the father of their children, so those tomcats can contribute to family support.

In answer to a direct question on this mornings The Hui, Minister Sepuloni answered a total of 64000 kids were included in that change.

Get rooted NZ while the rooters continue unabashed and not responsible.

Thanks Labour.

Do any of you tomcats know the difference per week per child between named and un named?

In 2017, $27

Labour said it would cost $20M.pa.

Now it's a cats whisker under $90M

Back to the rooting.

Thanks Labour.

[davflaws]

With all due respect ... I think it is more complicated.

The US do have a shockingly high crime rate (well, for any western country) - despite having as well the harshest penalties in the Western world. They have as well a rather high proportion of innocent people in their jails - even 10% on death row are innocent. Do they need harsher sentences?

We do need an effective criminal system (i.e. criminals can rely on being caught). We need a competent police force you can trust (i.e. without bias, without hidden corruption, without favouring buddies). We need a court system which produces fair sentences in months, not unfair sentences in years.

We don't need policemen planting evidence because they think somebody is guilty, and we don't need courts locking up innocent people for many years just because somebody must pay.

In general - we don't need harsher sentences, we need better (i.e. fairer) sentences for the offenders and a better system to distinguish between the guilty and the innocent.

And - we do need to grow a society which is growing less prison birds. We need to support family values, we need to help families to rear children, we need to provide a supportive environment helping these children to do the right thing and we need to educate in our schools responsible citizens.

This is what we need, not harsher penalties for the unlucky ones which are caught by the system (whether they are guilty of not).

I would never have picked you for a bleeding heart liberal trendy lefty woke wimp. A rational approach to crime is not welcome on this thread.

Grow some balls man!

[Getty]

I would never have picked you for a bleeding heart liberal trendy lefty woke wimp. A rational approach to crime is not welcome on this thread.

Grow some balls man!

You've balled him up!

[Blue Skies]

I base it on a lengthy conversation with a barrister friend and reports from a close family member who works in one of our District Courts. I am shocked at what’s happening but hey, Labour promised to reduce the prison population.
https://www.act.org.nz/press-releases/act-would-remove-cultural-background-reports-for-sentencing


I think the last amendments to the Sentencing Act Section 26A pre sentence reports which the ACT Party refer to, were made in 2016 when National were government.
I could be wrong but don't think there's been any changes since Labour became govt.
i.e. Labour haven't weakened the sentencing laws.

The Courts & judicial system may be trying new approaches as just incarcerating young offenders hasn't been working, & if somethings not working we need to try new approaches.
Once young offenders get a record & institutionalised in the prison system, its very difficult to turn them around.


There's a brilliant quote by a former Chief Justice of NSW who said,

"The ..care of the sentencing task is a process of overlapping contradictory & incommensurable objectives.
The requirements of deterrence, rehabilitation, denunciation, punishment & restorative justice, do not generally point in the same direction.
Specifically the requirements of justice in the sense of just deserts, & of mercy often conflict.
Yet we live in a society which values both justice & mercy."

[nztx]

Agree with almost all of your post BP. But I do not agree with what is happening now, which is the use of so called “cultural reports” that reduce sentences in a big way, for mainly criminals of Maori descent. Handing out sentences and leniency based on race is disgraceful and leaves more criminals in our communities, unafraid of being caught.


Didn't Labour want them out so they could vote too ? :)

[iceman]

Didn't Labour want them out so they could vote too ? :)

Bu then they decided to just let all prisoners vote anyway didn't they ? I think from memory, that's what the ended up doing.

[Balance]

Bu then they decided to just let all prisoners vote anyway didn't they ? I think from memory, that's what the ended up doing.

In 2010 the Electoral Act 1993 was amended to disqualify all prisoners from voting (regardless of the length of sentence imposed). In 2020 this law was amended so that only persons serving a sentence of imprisonment for a term of three years or more are disenfranchised.

Anything for votes - that's Ardern & Kelvin Davis.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1665949645979-XJARCDDIRBYZAUT0D7CB/Demolition+copy.jpg?format=2500w

[Getty]

Come on Cinders, you know your flame burned out long ago.

Take the opportunity to call a snap General election, instead of just a Hamilton by election.

Extinguish yourself and the rest of NZ from your misery.

Sharma on you.

[Balance]

Bloody nose awaits Ardern & her useless mob in Hamilton.

A disastrous look for the Covid lockdown Queen.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/audrey-young-labour-to-campaign-against-tide-in-hamilton-byelection/BN5WVNY2KH3YWK33QNLBLV35GE/
Paywalled

An unnecessary byelection has been forced by the unnecessary resignation of a former member of the Labour Party caucus who is battling irrelevance.

That said, the byelection is likely to be a bloodbath for Labour.

[tim23]

Come on Cinders, you know your flame burned out long ago.

Take the opportunity to call a snap General election, instead of just a Hamilton by election.

Extinguish yourself and the rest of NZ from your misery.

Sharma on you.

Who is Cinders?

[Getty]

Who is Cinders?

Come on Tim, you know her as your favorite Aunty.

To help your memory, her portrait is above, operating the demolition ball.

Commie ladies turn their hands to roadworks and the like.

Cinders who reduced New Zimbabwe to ashes.

[Balance]

Ardern & her Labour mob clearly panicking about the Hamilton by-election :

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/18-10-2022/gaurav-sharma-and-the-migraine-for-labour-in-hamilton-west

Their excuses for losing are already coming out thick and fast. They know they are going to get caned for 5 years of clueless and useless time in government.

Delicious!

Wonderful!

First Hamilton, then 2023!

[Bjauck]

Agree with almost all of your post BP. But I do not agree with what is happening now, which is the use of so called “cultural reports” that reduce sentences in a big way, for mainly criminals of Maori descent. Handing out sentences and leniency based on race is disgraceful and leaves more criminals in our communities, unafraid of being caught.
Cultural reports under the Sentencing Act were introduced back in 2002. The National Party when in government chose not to get rid of them. The sentencing judge can weigh up various factors to "uplift" or "mitigate" a sentence. Courts take into account the impact of various sentences on a person's. Likewise a cultural report should be used to ensure the sentence is, within parameters, most appropriate, given whatever deprivation or background is revealed in the report.

[Getty]

Likewise a cultural report should be used to ensure the sentence is, within parameters, most appropriate, given whatever deprivation or background is revealed in the report.

In other words, another chance to use an excuse that an 'uncultural' person can not, with a view to a light punishment. IE, an unlevel playing field.

At what stage do I have to face up to my personal responsibilty as an adult, no matter how much I was abused as a child?

Do my victims feel any less traumatised, knowing I am cultural?

If I say I was brought up in a gang house, then thats my excuse for beating people?

If you want to break cycles, rather than make them perpetual, then how about treating all with equivalent punishment.

[BlackPeter]

In other words, another chance to use an excuse that an 'uncultural' person can not, with a view to a light punishment. IE, an unlevel playing field.

At what stage do I have to face up to my personal responsibilty as an adult, no matter how much I was abused as a child?

Do my victims feel any less traumatised, knowing I am cultural?

If I say I was brought up in a gang house, then thats my excuse for beating people?

If you want to break perpetual cycles, then how about treating all with equivalent punishment.

There are clearly arguments for and against considering the upbringing (i.e. circumstances, I am not talking race) of the offender when determining the punishment. Some might say as well, that insanity is no defence given that it does not matter for the victim, whether the person beating them up was sane or insane.
Again - there are arguments for and against.

However, looking at the thread title and Bjauck's previous response - whatever the result of this discussion would be (I suppose there won't be any agreement - this would be a discussion about personal values) - it has nothing to do with Labour and this thread, given that it is not Labours fault that our court system uses cultural reports. National was in government quite happy with the process.

Maybe a discussion for some other thread ...

[iceman]

Cultural reports under the Sentencing Act were introduced back in 2002. The National Party when in government chose not to get rid of them. The sentencing judge can weigh up various factors to "uplift" or "mitigate" a sentence. Courts take into account the impact of various sentences on a person's. Likewise a cultural report should be used to ensure the sentence is, within parameters, most appropriate, given whatever deprivation or background is revealed in the report.

Talk to anyone with first hand experience of the judicial system and they will tell you how the use of "cultural reports" has grown in the last few years and have become an absolute & meaningless joke. If you think this Government's directives have nothing to do with it, then you're entitled to that view. It would however be somewhat gullible to believe so.

[Bjauck]

Talk to anyone with first hand experience of the judicial system and they will tell you how the use of "cultural reports" has grown in the last few years and have become an absolute & meaningless joke. If you think this Government's directives have nothing to do with it, then you're entitled to that view. It would however be somewhat gullible to believe so. Since 2018 funding is via legal aid for those that qualify. The Ministry of Justice stopped funding them in 2018. Maybe that explains the growth in the number? Justice is available for those who pay.

[Balance]

Ardern making excuses already about why she is going to lose Hamilton.

What a loser the Spin Mistress is - clueless and useless.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hamilton-west-byelection-gaurav-sharmas-surprise-exit-hurts-labours-chances-jacinda-ardern/EDZEK4CHCYHPJA6ZPRC6QYTV5M/

[Panda-NZ-]

It will be another job Sharma has left. There's a new one every year.

[dobby41]

In 2010 the Electoral Act 1993 was amended to disqualify all prisoners from voting (regardless of the length of sentence imposed). In 2020 this law was amended so that only persons serving a sentence of imprisonment for a term of three years or more are disenfranchised.


You know that this is sensible! (Or are you too stupid or blinkered to know why?)
If your sentence is less than 3 years it is only timing that may prevent you from voting in a general election.

[Getty]

You know that this is sensible! (Or are you too stupid or blinkered to know why?)
If your sentence is less than 3 years it is only timing that may prevent you from voting in a general election.

Yep, its all about being fair to the crims.

[Panda-NZ-]

For a govt granted with a 4 seat majority they do focus on a curious set of issues. The opposition does have a point with NZ being the most efficient farmers in the world.

The greens vote has nowhere to go esp with the pro oil-drilling, add more cars & trucks national.

[Blue Skies]

For a govt granted with a 4 seat majority they do focus on a curious set of issues. The opposition does have a point with NZ being the most efficient farmers in the world.

The greens vote has nowhere to go esp with the pro oil-drilling, add more cars & trucks national.


NZ farmers are not the most efficient farmers in the world, that's just something parroted by National for political purposes & a small group of farmers (Groundswell) who expect the rest of us Kiwis to subsidise their emissions & despite the devastating effects of climate change on agriculture, continue to resist any change.

Here's a very good fact checker which dispels some of the myths & misinformation Groundswell & National are promoting.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/130229379/fact-check-how-do-groundswells-climate-complaints-stack-up

[jonu]

NZ farmers are not the most efficient farmers in the world, that's just something parroted by National for political purposes & a small group of farmers (Groundswell) who expect the rest of us Kiwis to subsidise their emissions & despite the devastating effects of climate change on agriculture, continue to resist any change.

Here's a very good fact checker which dispels some of the myths & misinformation Groundswell & National are promoting.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/130229379/fact-check-how-do-groundswells-climate-complaints-stack-up

As per my post on the Global Warming thread. The fact checking is dubious at best.

[BlackPeter]

Yep, its all about being fair to the crims.

Let face it - a government which is not fair to everybody is fair to nobody ... and hey, we do know that it is easy in NZ to get locked up without fault. Plenty of examples where lynch mentality in police and courts brought the wrong people for long times behind bars. Hey, somebody has to pay, right?

If you happen to be the next, than maybe you would be glad if you have still some rights behind bars ... :):

[Balance]

Took 3 tries before Ardern admitted that the child poverty stats in NZ do not include the 4,000+ children in emergency housing etc.

And she said she personally took charge of eradicating child poverty in 2017 because it is a disgrace that there are children in emergency housing and living in cars!

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/10/prime-minister-s-office-apologises-for-misleading-comments-about-new-zealand-s-child-poverty-figures.html

Clueless and useless = Ardern, the mistress of spin & BS

[BlackPeter]

Obviously - if things go bad, it is always the fault of a Labour government. I think the resident thread dwellers can agree on that.

And as obviously - if something does go right, it must be either an accident or somebody other than Labour did a great job!

Just came across this article in the Herald .... it seems like NZ Police does get a hold on the recent spree of gang related violence - using plain old speed tickets and traffic infringement notices and collecting illegal weapons along the way!


Operation Cobalt was launched in July to respond to a spike in intimidating behaviour and violence by gangs, particularly the drive-by shootings between the Killer Beez and Tribesmen in Auckland, in the first half of the year.

Since then, the police have seized 199 firearms and laid 12,900 charges in court, as well as confiscating commercial quantities of drugs and large sums of cash.

But it's the Land Transport Safety Act which has been deliberately used as part of a strategy to disrupt gang members, according to the officer in charge of Operation Cobalt, with 15,500 traffic infringement notices issued.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/operation-cobalt-police-issue-15000-traffic-tickets-to-gang-members-in-disruption-tactic/CYDAQ6THB6E4C2HALCVG5A4PL4/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=nzh_email&utm_campaign=Premium_Business_Briefing_Newsletter&uuid=07a57e44f5f54fc98c5c276a09e442f5

(Sorry - paywalled, but fun to read ...)

Good on them .... and now - lets continue to blame the government. Pretty cold day, today - isn't it? Must be the governments fault ... they don't produce enough hot air ...

[Balance]

Obviously - if things go bad, it is always the fault of a Labour government. I think the resident thread dwellers can agree on that.

And as obviously - if something does go right, it must be either an accident or somebody other than Labour did a great job!

Just came across this article in the Herald .... it seems like NZ Police does get a hold on the recent spree of gang related violence - using plain old speed tickets and traffic infringement notices and collecting illegal weapons along the way!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/operation-cobalt-police-issue-15000-traffic-tickets-to-gang-members-in-disruption-tactic/CYDAQ6THB6E4C2HALCVG5A4PL4/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=nzh_email&utm_campaign=Premium_Business_Briefing_Newsletter&uuid=07a57e44f5f54fc98c5c276a09e442f5

(Sorry - paywalled, but fun to read ...)

Good on them .... and now - lets continue to blame the government. Pretty cold day, today - isn't it? Must be the governments fault ... they don't produce enough hot air ...

Garbage as usual.

[Getty]

Let face it - a government which is not fair to everybody is fair to nobody ... and hey, we do know that it is easy in NZ to get locked up without fault. Plenty of examples where lynch mentality in police and courts brought the wrong people for long times behind bars. Hey, somebody has to pay, right?

If you happen to be the next, than maybe you would be glad if you have still some rights behind bars ... :):

Righto, rig the entire Corrections Dept to reflect the welfare of the few that are innocent, rather than the vast majority who are not.

Kelvin and Cinders have got 12 months to do it.

Hey bro, where's our KFC for tea, have the screws pinched it?

[Balance]

Prison population consists of Labour demographics supporters - why Ardern & Davis are so very keen to look after them. That’s the only reason - votes.

[BlackPeter]

Prison population consists of Labour demographics supporters - why Ardern & Davis are so very keen to look after them. That’s the only reason - votes.

Interesting statement - just more hot air from you or would you have any evidence to support your both claims?

1) "Prison population consists of Labour demographic supporters" - so you say, there are no supporters of ACT, National, the Green party, NZF, the funny bishop, Advantage (or however the idiots are called) in prison? You are saying that the NZ justice system is only incarcerating Labour supporters? Do you have any evidence for this outrageous claim?

2) "That's the only reason - votes"- now, you obviously assume that everybody would behave like you do ... but apart from this projection - do you have any evidence for this claim?

[Balance]

Interesting statement - just more hot air from you or would you have any evidence to support your both claims?

1) "Prison population consists of Labour demographic supporters" - so you say, there are no supporters of ACT, National, the Green party, NZF, the funny bishop, Advantage (or however the idiots are called) in prison? You are saying that the NZ justice system is only incarcerating Labour supporters? Do you have any evidence for this outrageous claim?

2) "That's the only reason - votes"- now, you obviously assume that everybody would behave like you do ... but apart from this projection - do you have any evidence for this claim?

Evidence?

Go through the last 5 years of Ardern in power and you have all the evidence you will ever need.

None so blind as those with eyes but do not see.

[BlackPeter]

Evidence?

Go through the last 5 years of Ardern in power and you have all the evidence you will ever need.

None so blind as those with eyes but do not see.

No shred of evidence provided. Just more hot air ...

[Balance]

No shred of evidence provided. Just more hot air ...

One of the executives of a finance company once challenged me in a public forum in Orewa 2006 to provide proof that the finance companies were disasters waiting to happen.

I rest my case.

[BlackPeter]

One of the executives of a finance company once challenged me in a public forum in Orewa 2006 to provide proof that the finance companies were disasters waiting to happen.

I rest my case.

One swallow does not make a summer.

I assume you don't understand the meaning of "evidence" or "statistical relevant", do you?

[Blue Skies]

Evidence?

Go through the last 5 years of Ardern in power and you have all the evidence you will ever need.

None so blind as those with eyes but do not see.


How quickly we forget!
For the last almost 3 years, we & the rest of the whole world has been in the grips of a global pandemic which has already killed over 6 million people.
No govt in living memory has had to navigate such a frightening & disruptive period.

If you watch the current TV1 program on Sunday nights, 'This England' its a chilling reminder of what a terrifying period this has been, a new deadly airborne virus with no vaccine & no antiviral medication.
To think this would not cause massive disruption & dislocation of society & everything would continue as normal or you could compare it with previous times is insane.
Its the sort of once in a 100 year event which could have caused a collapse, & anarchy.

But we've come through it amazingly well, comparatively, with one of the lowest death rates in the world, among the lowest govt dept in the OECD, low food price inflation compared to the rest of the world, low inflation compared to the OECD average, low unemployment, business & employment supported through the pandemic, a series of new free trade agreements & so on.

We have a PM who has been outstanding in terms of a creating a positive profile for New Zealand around the world, go anywhere overseas now & just see the affection for & how incredibly highly rated NZ is, esp for our tiny size & geographical insignificance.
It's been a huge boost to our exporters & just being a Kiwi travelling overseas.

Of course there's lots of things wrong & many mistakes from this govt, but at least they are trying to solve some of these problems like child poverty & housing.
National don't have any answers & don't even care, they just want tax cuts for the rich like Liz Truss's govt & now even suggesting switching from a public funding model of welfare, to one depending on private philanthropy a model which has proven to be a complete disaster.

In the middle of a cost of living crisis, how is giving people on say the PM's salary an extra $18,000 a year when someone on the average salary gets just $800 good policy for the country?
Now Trickle down theory has been thoroughly discredited & over a certain income any increases have negligible motivation effect, how does that help the country one bit?
With the benefit of hindsight, we can see a National govt would have had disastrous consequences for the country through the pandemic, flip flopping vaccine roll out & mandates, opening the border up at the wrong time, wanting a purpose built Quarantine facility which would have been a white elephant.
We can look back at Luxon's trip to England & talking to Right Wing Think Tank dumping on NZ, & effusively congratulating Liz Truss on her becoming PM & saying we (the National Party ) share the same values! Share the same values as Liz Truss! Everyone knew back then Liz Truss was a disastrous choice except Luxon.

Enough for now.
Just have a think about these things instead of the usual knee-jerk reaction.

[iceman]

We have a PM who has been outstanding in terms of a creating a positive profile for New Zealand around the world, go anywhere overseas now & just see the affection for & how incredibly highly rated NZ is, esp for our tiny size & geographical insignificance.
It's been a huge boost to our exporters & just being a Kiwi travelling overseas.

I've spent the last 10 months outside of NZ, in several countries. I have not witnessed people overseas gushing over your Dear Leader as you claim. Most have never heard of her and can not name NZ's PM and quite a few that I spoke to actually laughed at her after her recent UN speech.
But you enjoy your glorious Utopia for the few months it has left to run.

[777]

The 39c tax rate has only been here since April 2021. It was an envy tax. Nothing else. It raises bugger all and what it does raise is simply wasted by the current clowns in consulting fees and the like.

The normal knee jerk reaction by National haters and Jacinda fawners is to say "tax cuts for the rich".

Just have a think about that BS.

[Panda-NZ-]

The 39c tax rate has only been here since April 2021. It was an envy tax. Nothing else. It raises bugger all and what it does raise is simply wasted by the current clowns in consulting fees and the like.

The normal knee jerk reaction by National haters and Jacinda fawners is to say "tax cuts for the rich".

Just have a think about that BS.


The 180k threshold is huge (over and above the inflation rate from 70k).

The rate before 33% was 38%, which it is just returning to.

[blackcap]

How quickly we forget!
For the last almost 3 yhas been in the grips of a global pandemic which has already killed over 6 million people.
No govt in living memory has had to navigate such a frightening & disruptive period.

.

You mean only 6 million have died from covid? That is actually quite a small number of people that have passed. Did you know in the last 3 years, globally about 185,000,000 people have died? That only 6 million have died from covid says how frightening it really is. Give or take covid has killed 3% of people that have died. The other 97% died from something else...

[fungus pudding]

Oops! sorry. Posted on wrong thread - removed and now posted on 'Is NZ becoming more racially didvided'.

[Bjauck]

I've spent the last 10 months outside of NZ, in several countries. I have not witnessed people overseas gushing over your Dear Leader as you claim. Most have never heard of her and can not name NZ's PM and quite a few that I spoke to actually laughed at her after her recent UN speech.
But you enjoy your glorious Utopia for the few months it has left to run. NZ obviously appears low down on the radar for many people overseas, especially non-English speaking nations for whom Rugby or Cricket are very minor sports. Ardern had a very positive and relatively high profile (for a NZ PM) in the UK and Ireland (where I have many relations and friends) during the first year of the pandemic, when Bojo, especially, and the EU were seen as disorganised with mixed messages. Ardern's response to the Christhurch mosque terror received wide mostly positive attention too.

However my echo chambers may be different from yours;)

[Bjauck]

You mean only 6 million have died from covid? That is actually quite a small number of people that have passed. Did you know in the last 3 years, globally about 185,000,000 people have died? That only 6 million have died from covid says how frightening it really is. Give or take covid has killed 3% of people that have died. The other 97% died from something else... Same in the Ukraine - more people die of old age rather than Putin's bombs?

[iceman]

NZ obviously appears low down on the radar for many people overseas, especially non-English speaking nations for whom Rugby or Cricket are very minor sports. Ardern had a very positive and relatively high profile (for a NZ PM) in the UK and Ireland (where I have many relations and friends) during the first year of the pandemic, when Bojo, especially, and the EU were seen as disorganised with mixed messages. Ardern's response to the Christhurch mosque terror received wide mostly positive attention too.

However my echo chambers may be different from yours;)

6 weeks of my time spent in the UK, mainly SE England and South Wales visiting family & friends that seem to hold across the spectrum political views as far as I can see/hear. They play both cricket and rugby there.
Can't see much gushing over Ardern from any of them, including wife's close childhood friend who is a 3 term Labour MP in the House of Commons. Admittedly she asked a lot of questions though.

[Blue Skies]

The 39c tax rate has only been here since April 2021. It was an envy tax. Nothing else. It raises bugger all and what it does raise is simply wasted by the current clowns in consulting fees and the like.

The normal knee jerk reaction by National haters and Jacinda fawners is to say "tax cuts for the rich".

Just have a think about that BS.


The difference between you & me is you're thinking about it from a personal point of view, whereas I'm looking at it from a best for the country policy viewpoint.
As Biden in the US, the British people, even the markets have firmly said, cutting the tax rates for the wealthy in the midst of a cost of living crisis & trying to get inflation under control is insane.

Imagine for a moment you're the Minister of Finance.
With everything from rates, insurance, food, power, rents, mortgages going through the roof, would your priority be to give someone wealthy on the PM's $471,000 salary an $18,000 tax cut, while thousand of Kiwis are struggling on $45,000 per year will get less than $200, or the average NZ worker will get $800 ?

Is that good policy for the country, will that make a positive difference to helping people pay their bills, get to the doctor, afford proper heating, afford the school donations & extra curricular activities & decent lunches for the kids, etc ?

OR would you prefer we further increase the wealth/poverty Inequality Gap, further increasing stress on families & marriages, and instead depend on private philanthropic donations from the wealthy to give at their discretion to a number of competing agencies clipping the ticket, to pick up the pieces from the growing numbers finding themselves unable to pay their bills & in dire financial situations.

This is nothing to do with National haters or Jacinda fawners, its about whats best for our country at the moment.

When it comes to election campaigning, I can just see Adern making mince meat of Luxon's tax policy when she contrasts herself rejecting an extra $18,000 tax cut on her $471,000 PM's salary, against Luxon with 7 houses, a large salary, no financial stress wanting to give himself if he become PM an extra $18,000 a year, while so many families are struggling to pay their bills & we are trying to get inflation under control.

With the economy doing well, govt debt low, exporters thriving, Labour are bound to make some adjustments to the tax regime next year aimed at relief for middle NZ & pitched in stark contrast to Nationals tax policy which is heavily pitched towards the wealthy & provides little relief to most Kiwis.
Could cost Luxon the election.

[Bjauck]

6 weeks of my time spent in the UK, mainly SE England and South Wales visiting family & friends that seem to hold across the spectrum political views as far as I can see/hear. The play both cricket and rugby there.
Can't see much gushing over Ardern from any of them, including wife's close childhood friend who is a 3 term Labour MP in the House of Commons. Admittedly she asked a lot of questions though. I wouldn't say my contacts gushed over her either. Maybe I should have said a more positive opinion compared to their own governments. The comments were along the lines of - at least you have a better a PM than us or at least your government acted quickly with the lockdown etc. The fact they knew a little bit about what was happening in NZ, was mostly more than they had previously been aware of...other than stuff about the All Blacks.

[Balance]

Doctors give the big thumbs down to Te Whatu Ora - another centralisation disaster by Ardern & her useless mob.

All spin and zero delivery but in the process, squandering on bureaucracy rather than health improvements, hundreds of millions of dollars of desperately needed funds.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/130243938/healths-postcode-lottery-worse-since-creation-of-national-health-agencies

The unanimous response was that there were no improvements – in fact access to specialist services was worse.

“The only difference we have seen is the change in letterhead on the letters rejecting our referrals,” he said.

[Getty]

Doctors give the big thumbs down to Te Whatu Ora - another centralisation disaster by Ardern & her useless mob.

All spin and zero delivery but in the process, squandering on bureaucracy rather than health improvements, hundreds of millions of dollars of desperately needed funds.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/130243938/healths-postcode-lottery-worse-since-creation-of-national-health-agencies

The unanimous response was that there were no improvements – in fact access to specialist services was worse.

“The only difference we have seen is the change in letterhead on the letters rejecting our referrals,” he said.

Yep, and who couldn't see it coming?

Now, with the effective repealing of the Tohunga suppression act, it's only a matter of time before Voodoo men from the Congo are on the desirable assisted immigrant list.

Remember where you heard it first, and don't laugh, because it is you who will be paying.

Thanks Labour.

[tim23]

Evidence?

Go through the last 5 years of Ardern in power and you have all the evidence you will ever need.

None so blind as those with eyes but do not see.
As usual someone challenged you and you defect - you are a hollow person- probably a bully in your earlier years in the play ground and now on this forum

[tim23]

One of the executives of a finance company once challenged me in a public forum in Orewa 2006 to provide proof that the finance companies were disasters waiting to happen.

I rest my case.

So and did you provide proof? Finish your diatribe 😀

[Panda-NZ-]

Doctors give the big thumbs down to Te Whatu Ora - another centralisation disaster by Ardern & her useless mob.

What's the National plan for health -- some years CPI only, some years below CPI.

We'll end up with ours like the UK's NHS under the tories.

[winner69]

Our PM has a kind heart

Spotted the PM in town, she packed Neve in the car and went back to give this man some money
https://twitter.com/Nakiman/status/1584329263955988480?s=20&t=vBoPl4U2mc-XUhis4MG6Qg

Photo's included

Mind you Julie will reprimand her for not biking into town .... lives nearby

[dobby41]

Same in the Ukraine - more people die of old age rather than Putin's bombs?

What does that mean - Putin's bombs are ok?
Those dying from bombs are in addition to those dying of old age rather than instead of (in most cases - some old people near death die also I suppose).

[BlackPeter]

What does that mean - Putin's bombs are ok?
Those dying from bombs are in addition to those dying of old age rather than instead of (in most cases - some old people near death die also I suppose).

It appears you are vehemently agreeing with Bjauck. Always good to look at the context :) ;

[Balance]

So who would you rather believe - the spin from Ardern or those on the cold face dealing with the reality of poverty & homelessness?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/477189/we-re-doing-the-best-we-can-homeless-services-struggle-with-need

"The Associate Housing Minister Marama Davidson said the latest six-monthly progress report on the government's plan to tackle homelessness shows milestones being met."

"Wellington's City Missioner says there is unprecedented demand for its emergency and transitional housing right now. Wellington missioner Murray Edridge said on the ground the situation was dire. "We're very full in our services, and we've got a cohort of people that are harder off than they've ever been."

[Balance]

Ardern to leave politics?

Is she a quitter or a fighter?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/bryce-edwards-the-increasing-speculation-about-jacinda-ardern-quitting/U72FTQFMEJFADALEK5HKF4BXTY/

“The Labour Party annual conference takes place next month, and will be a chance for Ardern and her colleagues to show that the party has some new ideas and momentum. There are so many problems building up steam at the moment, and yet Labour and Ardern look like they have run out of steam and ideas themselves. When this happens, it’s normally a good idea to consider the political exit door earlier than waiting to be pushed out.”

[Bjauck]

What does that mean - Putin's bombs are ok?
Those dying from bombs are in addition to those dying of old age rather than instead of (in most cases - some old people near death die also I suppose).For me, anything to do with Putin or bombs deployed is never a good thing. The two together are beyond the pale. However, I did post in an opaque passive-aggressive ironic way as a simile in response to a previous post.

[tim23]

So who would you rather believe - the spin from Ardern or those on the cold face dealing with the reality of poverty & homelessness?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/477189/we-re-doing-the-best-we-can-homeless-services-struggle-with-need

"The Associate Housing Minister Marama Davidson said the latest six-monthly progress report on the government's plan to tackle homelessness shows milestones being met."

"Wellington's City Missioner says there is unprecedented demand for its emergency and transitional housing right now. Wellington missioner Murray Edridge said on the ground the situation was dire. "We're very full in our services, and we've got a cohort of people that are harder off than they've ever been."

A breakthrough - using the PMs proper name, that was easy and respectful - well done!

[Getty]

Article in NZ Herald Business premium section today re Mahuta nepotism in government work.

Perhaps some days in the Rarotongan sun, rather than the Waikato fog, have shed some light.

Looks like Jacinda's (sic tim) sweep it under the carpet crew have got their jobs for a while yet...

[Balance]

Article in NZ Herald Business premium section today re Mahuta nepotism in government work.

Perhaps some days in the Rarotongan sun, rather than the Waikato fog, have shed some light.

Looks like Jacinda's (sic tim) sweep it under the carpet crew have got their jobs for a while yet...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/minister-nanaia-mahutas-role-in-appointing-her-young-relation-to-government-work/QRWCDGKWR4H3W2JPTVIVWYMXAM/

“…..: Mahuta was in "clear breach of the Cabinet Manual, overseeing the appointment of her niece to a paid position for which she [Mahuta] had ministerial responsibility."

There were five non-government members appointed to the working group; they were paid a total of $44,094.80. Te Puni Kōkiri declined to break the sum down by individual payment.

[BlackPeter]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/minister-nanaia-mahutas-role-in-appointing-her-young-relation-to-government-work/QRWCDGKWR4H3W2JPTVIVWYMXAM/

“…..: Mahuta was in "clear breach of the Cabinet Manual, overseeing the appointment of her niece to a paid position for which she [Mahuta] had ministerial responsibility."

There were five non-government members appointed to the working group; they were paid a total of $44,094.80. Te Puni Kōkiri declined to break the sum down by individual payment.

Hope the "most transparent government" ever is not trying to brush this mess under the carpet.

Whatever it was - it needs full investigation and transparency - I guess surely - we can't allow allegations of corruption (nepotism is one form of corruption) swirl around one of our most important ministers, can we?

Any honorable government would have by now released Mahuta from her duties until the whole issue is cleared up - one way or another.

Would save as well lots of money she could not burn during her suspension on three waters. Win - win.

[Balance]

Ardern would not dare touch any of the Maori cabal - just have to watch her squirmed when she was quizzed about the racist behaviour of the cabal. She rejected the premise of the question.