Labour govt 2020-23

[Zaphod]

The reality of how Euthanasia will be implemented is beginning to emerge. Sadly, for those of us called scaremongers, being proved right is no consolation. No surprise when Andrew "Brains Trust" Little is in the thick of it.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/fears-euthanasia-training-will-just-be-online-course/ar-BB1f3x4k?ocid=msedgntp

Euthanasia will be much like abortion, whereby the vast majority of health practitioners, who fully understand what is happening in practice, don't want anything to do with it.

There are lots of assumptions in that article that may not even come to fruition, so no one has been proved right. It is very much in line with the so-called leftist articles that are frequently claimed as biased on this forum.

[Zaphod]

Something had to be done to try to fix the NZ residential property market, high prices and supply. However the manner in which Labour is attempting to do this should be questioned.

Tova O'Brien: Jacinda Ardern and the mother of all broken promises
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/03/tova-o-brien-jacinda-ardern-and-the-mother-of-all-broken-promises.html

A Labour-supporting colleague has chastised me for suggesting that Labour have broken their promise, after all he says, it's not called a capital gains tax so it is therefore not a broken promise!

I suppose it is similar to the slowing evolving COVID L1 rules, which sees Level 2 become the new Level 1, so that we don't need to move up levels, even though practically speaking we already are.

[Zaphod]

The bright line test at 10 years isn't all bad.

Will it produce the desired result? Will properties remain as rentals even longer? What percentage of flippers would have been captured by the 5 year rule anyway? As I've mentioned in another post, our neighbours regularly buy a new family home, add value (apparently once by just painting the fence), and then hock it off so that they can rinse, lather, repeat.

Now we have a policy which treasury rates as "worse than the status quo".

[dobby41]

I suppose it is similar to the slowing evolving COVID L1 rules, which sees Level 2 become the new Level 1, so that we don't need to move up levels, even though practically speaking we already are.

What happened there that I missed?
So far as I know L1 is L1 and L2 is different.
L1 got masks on public transport added but L2 had a lot more differences.

[nztx]

A Labour-supporting colleague has chastised me for suggesting that Labour have broken their promise, after all he says, it's not called a capital gains tax so it is therefore not a broken promise!

I suppose it is similar to the slowing evolving COVID L1 rules, which sees Level 2 become the new Level 1, so that we don't need to move up levels, even though practically speaking we already are.


Govt dont seem very serious about fixing things at all - do they ? ;)
If they did, then they would want private sector to carry a fair portion of rental stock.
Instead they go about setting up the target for the vendetta and further trying to 'Bum things Up'
How is their current trajectory going to solve anything fast - ie homeless into four walls ? ;)

If they were really serious - take off with brightline tests / loss restrictions / reinstate depreciation
/ interest deductions & provide a bit of encouragement to Rental owners - which done the right way would
cost little upfront and could solve the problem in record time .. ;)

Instead the current lot seem to want to in the most caring way - ignore the homeless short to medium term,
make all the mums & dad 1 rental property owners target of the nasty Labour vendetta instead.

When this goes round, as it will - Labour will have burnt more of their own - left out in the cold,
added further swaithes to the homeless queue & in next 3-5 be no further ahead - let's guess
due to materials / skills shortages & will have blown a further large kitty in process to still
be nowhere near. The private sector which could have rescued things short to medium term will
be mostly gone & have no interest in an increasing overburdened over regulated sector .. ;)

What a shambles - Labor once again prove they have no idea & far from proclaimed kindness
are conducting nasty vendettas at expense of all - which will not end well for them in time..

[dobby41]

Govt dont seem very serious about fixing things at all - do they ? ;)
If they did, then they would want private sector to carry a fair portion of rental stock.
Instead they go about setting up the target for the vendetta and further trying to 'Bum things Up'
How is their current trajectory going to solve anything fast - ie homeless into four walls ? ;)

If they were really serious - take off with brightline tests / loss restrictions / reinstate depreciation
/ interest deductions & provide a bit of encouragement to Rental owners - which done the right way would
cost little upfront and could solve the problem in record time .. ;)


Encouraging people to buy existing properties to use for rentals doesn't solve anything - they need to be encouraged to build.
Oh, that's what they have done.

What would a 'fair' portion look like - only those that don't require access to the accommodation supplement (ie those who can afford it)?
The Govt could then build enough places (or encourage community housing providers) to house the poorest.

[fungus pudding]

Brian Fallow's opinion piece in the Herald (premium) had an interesting perspective.
He postulated that capital gain made up a larger part of the expected return for someone buying an investment property.
As the capital gain isn't taxable then neither should the interest be deductible.
Under the bright line test the gain is taxable so the interest paid is taken into account for that.

He, and Liam Dann, pointed out that in a normal business a 50% gain in value (of the business) would have meant that the business produced more

.

It doesn't mean any such thing. The gain will more often than not be mostly nominal, meaning that during the period of ownership the turnover and sale price reflect inflation.
And the expected capital gain does not reflect future capital gain. It reflects what every other buyer in the market, most of whom will be owner occupiers, have to pay.

[Zaphod]

Encouraging people to buy existing properties to use for rentals doesn't solve anything - they need to be encouraged to build.
Oh, that's what they have done.

By what, exempting new builds to a brightline test of 5 years? Will that really overcome the high costs of building, lack of resources to complete a build, and the massive deposits required? What else have they done to encourage building v. buying existing stock?

[Balance]

By what, exempting new builds to a brightline test of 5 years? Will that really overcome the high costs of building, lack of resources to complete a build, and the massive deposits required? What else have they done to encourage building v. buying existing stock?

Kiwibuild?

[fungus pudding]

By what, exempting new builds to a brightline test of 5 years? Will that really overcome the high costs of building, lack of resources to complete a build, and the massive deposits required? What else have they done to encourage building v. buying existing stock?

They've discouraged competition from renovators, existing landlords and new investors, thereby allowing rentals for new units to hit record highs. Furthermore. they will only have to pay income tax on their profit - not on their mortgage payments.

[jonu]

Arrogance coming back at this government as egg on their face again.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/housing-minister-to-correct-the-record-after-misleading-parliament-over-dollar38bn-fund/ar-BB1f3Gbg?ocid=msedgntp&pfr=1

Trouble is....the Minister's office has thus far been too arrogant to reply to Nicola Willis. I'm sure Minister Woods is looking forward to having to explain and apologise in the House.

What is it with trying to find someone competent to be Housing Minister?

[iceman]

A Labour-supporting colleague has chastised me for suggesting that Labour have broken their promise, after all he says, it's not called a capital gains tax so it is therefore not a broken promise!
.

Your colleague is simply wrong. Robertson specifically ruled out extending the Brightline test before the election: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300259542/housing-grant-robertson-says-he-was-too-definitive-when-he-ruled-out-a-change-to-the-brightline-test-judith-collins-says-he-lied

[SBQ]

Will it produce the desired result? Will properties remain as rentals even longer? What percentage of flippers would have been captured by the 5 year rule anyway? As I've mentioned in another post, our neighbours regularly buy a new family home, add value (apparently once by just painting the fence), and then hock it off so that they can rinse, lather, repeat.

Now we have a policy which treasury rates as "worse than the status quo".

I think the changes will make a difference. I may of mentioned before that in recent years we've been seeing a lot of these Robert Kyosaki (Rich Dad, Poor Dad) type of seminars all over NZ, with the sole purpose of unlocking individual home owner's equity and pooling these funds to form investment portfolios in houses for renting out. 5 years is not so bad of a marketing pitch so they can wait before selling (hoping the investors can wait that long). BUT to ask investors to wait 10+ years ? Who in these seminars will have the patience to wait 10+ years? Remember these are unregulated investment clubs that differ to like Kiwi Saver so I do feel extending the Bright Line test to 10 years will make a difference.

On the issue of social housing for the poor, what i've seen done overseas is the gov't builds and owns multistory apartment complexes to house them. Not pay $ to motel operators that we see in NZ. Also to a person that has no income and housing, they too should not be in the position ot make any demands ; such as "I need a back yard for my children to play in... I want to be living in the city... ie. what most people aspire to the term "The Kiwi Dream". In Canada i've seen low income housing complexes built near Walmart (for which is known to build on the outer edges of cities), 2 bedroom apartments much like what we see being built in downtown Christchurch selling for $500K. But i'm not being hopeful social housing will be solved in NZ ; not with the grossly restrictive RMA that prevents developers from building UP.

By the way, there is PLENTY of land around NZ that can be built on and I don't believe infrastructure is the issue. The areas that are mostly in demand and constrained are in URBAN areas. But when you look at how we've built houses (under the RMA), we have wasted a lot of land and most of NZ building is low density. Have a look at Vancouver how they future proofed their residential building. Sub divided lots have back alley access ways. Their houses are built closely together and in times like now where there's huge demand for more dwellings in the city, they build "Lane Houses":

https://is.gd/PXXfX7

Fully accessible from the alley road way with separate mail box and rubbish collection. None of this building a SIDE driveway that extends from the front to the rear of the section that we see always done in NZ.

[westerly]

Your colleague is simply wrong. Robertson specifically ruled out extending the Brightline test before the election: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300259542/housing-grant-robertson-says-he-was-too-definitive-when-he-ruled-out-a-change-to-the-brightline-test-judith-collins-says-he-lied

He simply changed his mind. Get over it.

westerly

[jonu]

He simply changed his mind. Get over it.

westerly

When a Minister rules out doing something leading into an election, and then does that very thing within months, the electorate has a right to be angry and for that Minister's credibility to be at zero.

[Joshuatree]

Exactly , sounds like some people live groundhog day over and over and cant /wont adapt to change.That would make any commercial fisherman go broke really quickly for example.

[Joshuatree]

So transparent the political hosking type bias and hate for our govt, irrational and immature in extreme.

[dobby41]

When a Minister rules out doing something leading into an election, and then does that very thing within months, the electorate has a right to be angry and for that Minister's credibility to be at zero.

As was John Keys - people got over it.

[jonu]

As was John Keys - people got over it.

Cindy better hope so. Personally I think other than the smitten, people are finally seeing through Cindy and her "kind" politics. Easy to be kind when you are printing money and dishing it out hand over fist. Not so easy to deal with the consequences of that.

[Sgt Pepper]

Cindy better hope so. Personally I think other than the smitten, people are finally seeing through Cindy and her "kind" politics. Easy to be kind when you are printing money and dishing it out hand over fist. Not so easy to deal with the consequences of that.

The government could well be on the cusp of a "winter of discontent" The main risk, as I see it is in the health service. The Nurses employment collective contract has been under negotiation since last August .It is unlikely to accommodate the demands of Nurses Organisation . The probability of industrial action remains very high

[SBQ]

When a Minister rules out doing something leading into an election, and then does that very thing within months, the electorate has a right to be angry and for that Minister's credibility to be at zero.

Politicians are known to lie and change their minds - I should know coming from Canada where politicians there have a global reputation for doing this.

I will admit, i've been a National supporter since coming to NZ 20 years age. The recent election I voted for National on the sole basis that Jacinda had done nothing. NOW she's doing something and would vote for her. Does that mean the National Party has lied to me? Perhaps so by not doing anything ; on most part, they've been silent on the issue of affordable housing. I recall John Key mentioned that high housing prices in NZ are no different to abroad and that taxes does not discourage sky high pricing. Now that we see Jacinda doing a direct hit with increasing taxes on speculators, only time will tell. I just know that doing nothing is the worse option.

[Zaphod]

Government may pay twice for carbon credits


Agencies such as the police – which just contracted with Skoda to lease 2000 fossil-fuelled patrol cars – will need to buy carbon credits to offset their emissions in order to meet the Government's goal of making the public sector carbon-neutral by 2025.

But a report by thinktank Motu queries whether an organisation can call itself carbon-neutral if its country – in this case New Zealand – also counts the same carbon-cutting actions towards meeting its international targets.

The same issue could affect companies and brands such as Zespri, The Warehouse, Z Energy, Wellington Zoo, milk formula brand Karicare, and many others who’ve committed to voluntarily offsetting their emissions.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/124688577/government-may-pay-twice-for-carbon-credits

Will semantics cost the country dearly?

[SBQ]

@ Zaphod

Gee the readers of Stuff might not understand it and take it as literally. While not everyone knows the difference, how can the article report the costing of 2 entirely different entities (NZ Police = a gov't organisation funded by NZ tax payers vs private companies like The Warehouse Group ???)

Yes funny semantics!!

[winner69]

Good to see Hipkins and Verrall getting their Covid shot ....live too

[Zaphod]

@ Zaphod

Gee the readers of Stuff might not understand it and take it as literally. While not everyone knows the difference, how can the article report the costing of 2 entirely different entities (NZ Police = a gov't organisation funded by NZ tax payers vs private companies like The Warehouse Group ???)

Yes funny semantics!!

Yeah, let's hope that common sense prevails. If the overall emissions profile of the country drops to the desired level, then hasn't the overall goal been achieved? I suspect Motu will be ignored.

Sorry about derailing the property thread :)

[jonu]

3 and a half years after being elected on one of their flagship policies, Light Rail, our Labour Luvvies are putting it back to consultation. After blaming NZ First's handbrake they are now starting all over...which kinda says Winston was right doesn't it?

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/auckland-light-rail-new-unit-to-consult-aucklanders-for-late-2021-report/ar-BB1f8EcC?ocid=msedgntp

How much has been spent on this debacle? And not one step closer than 3 and a half years ago. Is Phil Twyford still anywhere near this? You know, the guy Cindy promoted on the Party List?

[tim23]

Cindy better hope so. Personally I think other than the smitten, people are finally seeing through Cindy and her "kind" politics. Easy to be kind when you are printing money and dishing it out hand over fist. Not so easy to deal with the consequences of that.

She has not cause to worry - plenty of people still like the PM smitten or not, and your lot has Collins?

[jonu]

She has not cause to worry - plenty of people still like the PM smitten or not, and your lot has Collins?

Who's my lot?

I pointed out there's a lot to be concerned about with the toothy one. As in....has she got more than one competent Minister? I'll cut her some slack on Grant Robertson, but even he is skating on thinner ice.

Andrew Little ..... a walking disaster looking for his next cockup. 50 million + poured down Pike River, grieving families played for political gain and nothing to show for it.
Phil Twyford....promoted to No4 on the List for being a bigger cockup than Little.
Meghan Woods....Housing Policy tracking along with the stellar performance of her predecessor.
The other Woods who just referred their 2017 policy on Light Rail (meant to be complete about now) back for public consultation.

That's just a sample.

[jonu]

Just to be clear....that is clearer than the Transport Minister, what follows is the monumental cockup that awaits us with Light Rail.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/auckland-airport-light-rail-back-from-the-dead/ar-BB1f8ML0?ocid=msedgntp

No one yet appointed to run it.

No entity decided upon to build it.

No clear funding stream. Although Phil Goff is adamant it will be Central Government.

All this after 3 and a half years of government policy that was to be complete in 2021.

Go Cindy.... Let's do this.

Let's see...we've had the year of consultations and reviews....we've had the "Year of Delivery" (Ahem), we've had the year of "Shovel Ready Projects". I know....we'll start all over again on Light Rail.. Just make bloody sure it doesn't track over Ihumatao....cos we all know we pinched money from somewhere else to cover my arse on that one....and that was meant to be for houses. Maybe we put tiny houses on Light Rail...that'll fool 'em....well maybe for long enough for me to bugger off before the **** hit s the fan.

What's next on the "To Do" List? Child Poverdy? Oh ****, what's after that one?

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/matthew-hooton-nz-trapped-in-the-vaccine-queue/GKU3JELMRV6VRIGX6ZJMUVPUT4/

From front of vaccine queue to back of queue.

Another cock-up (one of the many screw ups) by Cindy & her team of incompetents.

"In November, Health Minister Chris Hipkins announced "New Zealand will be at the front of the queue" for Covid vaccinations. Four and a half months later, it turns out we are closer to the back.

There will not be a single new agency with extraordinary powers to carry out this massive and hopefully once-in-a-century task. The Government says it just doesn't do that sort of thing — a claim belied by the cruel hoax of Andrew Little's $50 million standalone Pike River Recovery Agency.

Instead, the rollout is being managed on business-as-usual terms by a troika of the Ministry of Health, the 20 District Health Boards (DHBs) and iwi. These bureaucrats are the same lot responsible for the calamitous 2019 measles outbreak and the influenza vaccine shortage the same year."

[tim23]

So transparent the political hosking type bias and hate for our govt, irrational and immature in extreme.

The worst thing is that Hosking is still trying to get over the 2017 result and his bromance with Key goes on...

[tim23]

Who's my lot?

I pointed out there's a lot to be concerned about with the toothy one. As in....has she got more than one competent Minister? I'll cut her some slack on Grant Robertson, but even he is skating on thinner ice.

Andrew Little ..... a walking disaster looking for his next cockup. 50 million + poured down Pike River, grieving families played for political gain and nothing to show for it.
Phil Twyford....promoted to No4 on the List for being a bigger cockup than Little.
Meghan Woods....Housing Policy tracking along with the stellar performance of her predecessor.
The other Woods who just referred their 2017 policy on Light Rail (meant to be complete about now) back for public consultation.

That's just a sample.

let me help you out - your lot are probably National or Act

[jonu]

let me help you out - your lot are probably National or Act

I'm fine without your help thanks tim23.

I don't have a "lot".

[Norwest]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/matthew-hooton-nz-trapped-in-the-vaccine-queue/GKU3JELMRV6VRIGX6ZJMUVPUT4/

From front of vaccine queue to back of queue.

Another cock-up (one of the many screw ups) by Cindy & her team of incompetents.

"In November, Health Minister Chris Hipkins announced "New Zealand will be at the front of the queue" for Covid vaccinations. Four and a half months later, it turns out we are closer to the back.

There will not be a single new agency with extraordinary powers to carry out this massive and hopefully once-in-a-century task. The Government says it just doesn't do that sort of thing — a claim belied by the cruel hoax of Andrew Little's $50 million standalone Pike River Recovery Agency.

Instead, the rollout is being managed on business-as-usual terms by a troika of the Ministry of Health, the 20 District Health Boards (DHBs) and iwi. These bureaucrats are the same lot responsible for the calamitous 2019 measles outbreak and the influenza vaccine shortage the same year."

Just to put this into context... countries with a higher vaccine rate and a similar population to New Zealand.

Palestine
Serbia
Uruguay
Estonia
Slovenia
Azerbaijan
Lebanon
El Salvador
etc etc.

No amount of Labour's PR spin machine in top gear, cliches around "team of 5 million", hugs and smiles can hide the facts and figures of a totally incompetent rollout thus far by the MoH and the government.

[SBQ]

I would say NZ is in a unique situation where we can afford to hold out on the vaccine roll out. You can list other countries with comparable population all you want, but not many countries like NZ can remain in Level 1 for most of the year. Anotherwords, they're in far greater need to be vaccinated than we are.

Now let's hope those incoming flights to NZ are properly controlled and quarantined. We can't afford more screw ups.

[Panda-NZ-]

Will semantics cost the country dearly?

Not as much as selling assets in a recession.

[Norwest]

I would say NZ is in a unique situation where we can afford to hold out on the vaccine roll out. You can list other countries with comparable population all you want, but not many countries like NZ can remain in Level 1 for most of the year. Anotherwords, they're in far greater need to be vaccinated than we are.

Now let's hope those incoming flights to NZ are properly controlled and quarantined. We can't afford more screw ups.

Sure, I would be happy to help you out... here's a few more countries that are doing way better than us in vaccine rates.

Ghana
Rwanda
Senegal
Sao Tome and Principe

The above countries are constantly listed near the top of the worlds most deprived and poverty stricken countries, however their governments can still complete their vaccinations at a faster rate than the current Labour government can.

Can you please enlighten the rest of us by answering two questions in regards to the statement you made.

1. What benefit does it provide to NZ if we "hold out on the vaccine roll out" ?

2. What benefit does it provide to NZ if other countries are in "far greater need to be vaccinated than we are" ?

I for one, would love to hear your answers.

[SBQ]

Sure, I would be happy to help you out... here's a few more countries that are doing way better than us in vaccine rates.

Ghana
Rwanda
Senegal
Sao Tome and Principe

The above countries are constantly listed near the top of the worlds most deprived and poverty stricken countries, however their governments can still complete their vaccinations at a faster rate than the current Labour government can.

Can you please enlighten the rest of us by answering two questions in regards to the statement you made.

1. What benefit does it provide to NZ if we "hold out on the vaccine roll out" ?

2. What benefit does it provide to NZ if other countries are in "far greater need to be vaccinated than we are" ?

I for one, would love to hear your answers.

To answer your question in point :

1) There's a lot of skepticism in general vaccines (just search online); causes autism, changes your DNA, i'm not an expert in medicine but there's no shortage of this kind of information online. (how you say the Anti-Vaxxers?) They would say all the COVID vaccines had been rushed out in record time which any reliable long term study for which every vaccine in the past had done. If you subscribe to this view, then you would prefer other countries that are rampant in COVID should have their vaccines - at the minimum, it should prove the effectiveness of the drug. (Should NZ be part of the guinea pig testing too?)

2) The NZ economy is reliant on international trade if we want to maintain our current standard of living. Being a primary producing nation, we don't have the option to say "we can depend on local consumption". Who are the buyers of our products? If those countries can not recover from COVID (because of a lack of the vaccine roll out?) then our economy too will continue to lag behind. Another words, the quicker those greater nations recover, the quicker NZ can return to the economy we once had (or at least in that direction).

[westerly]

I'm fine without your help thanks tim23.

I don't have a "lot".

Just talk a lot.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

To answer your question in point :

1) There's a lot of skepticism in general vaccines (just search online); causes autism, changes your DNA, i'm not an expert in medicine but there's no shortage of this kind of information online. (how you say the Anti-Vaxxers?) They would say all the COVID vaccines had been rushed out in record time which any reliable long term study for which every vaccine in the past had done. If you subscribe to this view, then you would prefer other countries that are rampant in COVID should have their vaccines - at the minimum, it should prove the effectiveness of the drug. (Should NZ be part of the guinea pig testing too?)

2) The NZ economy is reliant on international trade if we want to maintain our current standard of living. Being a primary producing nation, we don't have the option to say "we can depend on local consumption". Who are the buyers of our products? If those countries can not recover from COVID (because of a lack of the vaccine roll out?) then our economy too will continue to lag behind. Another words, the quicker those greater nations recover, the quicker NZ can return to the economy we once had (or at least in that direction).

Your first point doesn't stand against the weight pf qualified evidence.
Your second point: the suggestion our customers will beat us to the pearly gates, thereby leaving us short if customers, is too silly for comment.
Third point - once again you have coughed up 'another words'. First time I thought it was a typo. What does it mean, or is it a mondegreen??

[JBmurc]

Your first point doesn't stand against the weight pf qualified evidence.
Your second point: the suggestion our customers will beat us to the pearly gates, thereby leaving us short if customers, is too silly for comment.
Third point - once again you have coughed up 'another words'. First time I thought it was a typo. What does it mean, or is it a mondegreen??

What I did find interesting listening to Radio talk is if for some rare reason you die from the human stage 3 trail COVID Vaccine you may not be covered by your Life insurance policy... I know ANZ insurance doesn't going to find out about my policy next week>>. I also wonder if you have other complications if my health cover will cover if they believe it was caused by the vaccine... I got very sick last time I had a travel vaccine 20yrs years ago ... and have developed many food allergies over my later years so maybe the fact of egg embryo being used in many Vaccine was the reason I got symptoms of major Egg allergy

[Balance]

Sure, I would be happy to help you out... here's a few more countries that are doing way better than us in vaccine rates.

Ghana
Rwanda
Senegal
Sao Tome and Principe

The above countries are constantly listed near the top of the worlds most deprived and poverty stricken countries, however their governments can still complete their vaccinations at a faster rate than the current Labour government can.

Can you please enlighten the rest of us by answering two questions in regards to the statement you made.

1. What benefit does it provide to NZ if we "hold out on the vaccine roll out" ?

2. What benefit does it provide to NZ if other countries are in "far greater need to be vaccinated than we are" ?

I for one, would love to hear your answers.

From an economic benefit point of view, NZers getting vaccinated early would have provided a huge gigantic boost to our single biggest export industry - tourism.

"Before Covid-19, tourism was New Zealand's largest export industry, worth about $40 billion a year and directly employing 8.4 per cent (229,566 people) of the national workforce.

Without international visitors, New Zealand is facing a revenue gap of $12.9b a year."

If all NZers are vaccinated by say, end of April - NZ would be able to be opened up for international tourism and allow in visitors from relatively covid-free countries (think China & Oz) and those who are vaccinated. Think about the economic benefits.

Then, there's the international student industry - worth billions of dollars again a year.

Sadly, NZ is in the back of the queue for the vaccine - another monumental stuff-up by a clueless lying hyprocritical Cindy led government of incompetents.

[fungus pudding]

From an economic benefit point of view, NZers getting vaccinated early would have provided a huge gigantic boost to our single biggest export industry - tourism.

"Before Covid-19, tourism was New Zealand's largest export industry, worth about $40 billion a year and directly employing 8.4 per cent (229,566 people) of the national workforce.

Without international visitors, New Zealand is facing a revenue gap of $12.9b a year."

If all NZers are vaccinated by say, end of April - NZ would be able to be opened up for international tourism and allow in visitors from relatively covid-free countries (think China & Oz) and those who are vaccinated. Think about the economic benefits.

Then, there's the international student industry - worth billions of dollars again a year.

Sadly, NZ is in the back of the queue for the vaccine - another monumental stuff-up by a clueless lying hyprocritical Cindy led government of incompetents.

How does exporting tourists provide a boost to NZ in any way? What do the 229,000 people employed do? Where on earth did you dredge this up from?

[Zaphod]

How does exporting tourists provide a boost to NZ in any way? What do the 229,000 people employed do? Where on earth did you dredge this up from?

International tourism is normally defined as an export industry given we are exporting an experience to foreign customers, even though this by and large must be consumed within the country. I've seen those figures before when we were researching the impact of COVID on trade, and I think they're published by the NZ government via Tourism NZ amongst other places.

[fungus pudding]

International tourism is normally defined as an export industry given we are exporting an experience to foreign customers, even though this by and large must be consumed within the country. I've seen those figures before when we were researching the impact of COVID on trade, and I think they're published by the NZ government via Tourism NZ amongst other places.

You live and learn, they say.

[Zaphod]

You live and learn, they say.

Very true. The proverbial devil is in the detail as to how the government calculates that total, but given I lack any evidence to contradict it, I'll just have to accept it.

[SBQ]

@ Balance: How the hell does having an early vaccination in NZ benefit tourism from international visitors??? I can assure you, none of the airlines are going to open the door letting a flood of non-vaccinated passengers to fly to NZ. That's not how the protocol is set up. From what i'm reading, only those with the vaccinated card can freely fly in the US. Are you implying non-vaccinated visitors should come and visit NZ? Because if NZ gets vaccinated before they do, then what benefit are we seeing?

@ fungus_pudding:

The problem with qualified evidence is the stats only show those that complain and does not match those like JBmurc that may just live on life and not registered their health problems related to some vaccine (or the health / GP may not record it down as a vaccine related issue). Who knows? I do know that there are a lot of skeptics of vaccines, yes people are cautious despite the drug pharmas will say it's safe. The public wants to assume vaccines are 100% safe, but the reality is a very very small % will die and a very small % will have side effects (that may be life long). That is the risk when a drug has been pushed out in record time without thorough long term trial testing.

Doesn't take much common sense to see how important tourism was for NZ. We're not talking a mutually exclusive situation here. If you want visitors to NZ, they have to be vaccinated, not the other way around. If you want more consumers of our primary producing products, those countries too need to be vaccinated so their economies can get back to being productive ; instead of being unemployed.

[iceman]

International tourism is normally defined as an export industry given we are exporting an experience to foreign customers, even though this by and large must be consumed within the country. I've seen those figures before when we were researching the impact of COVID on trade, and I think they're published by the NZ government via Tourism NZ amongst other places.

I think it is defined as an export industry as it brings foreign currency into the NZ economy.

[Balance]

@ Balance: How the hell does having an early vaccination in NZ benefit tourism from international visitors??? I can assure you, none of the airlines are going to open the door letting a flood of non-vaccinated passengers to fly to NZ. That's not how the protocol is set up. From what i'm reading, only those with the vaccinated card can freely fly in the US. Are you implying non-vaccinated visitors should come and visit NZ? Because if NZ gets vaccinated before they do, then what benefit are we seeing?



Read carefully :

"If all NZers are vaccinated by say, end of April - NZ would be able to be opened up for international tourism and allow in visitors from relatively covid-free countries (think China & Oz) and those who are vaccinated."

That's the whole basis of the TransTasman travel bubble to be announced :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/transtasman-bubble-airports-airlines-ready-to-go/H5E2UCOW65MFG45TDS62M4FB7A/

and the recent controlled opening up of Poland & China to vaccinated visitors.

And some tourism dependent countries are already implementing the vaccination travel rules to allow in tourists :

https://www.afar.com/magazine/travelers-with-covid-vaccines-can-visit-these-countries

[iceman]

Read carefully :

"If all NZers are vaccinated by say, end of April - NZ would be able to be opened up for international tourism and allow in visitors from relatively covid-free countries (think China & Oz) and those who are vaccinated."

That's the whole basis of the TransTasman travel bubble to be announced :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/transtasman-bubble-airports-airlines-ready-to-go/H5E2UCOW65MFG45TDS62M4FB7A/

and the recent controlled opening up of Poland & China to vaccinated visitors.

And some tourism dependent countries are already implementing the vaccination travel rules to allow in tourists :

https://www.afar.com/magazine/travelers-with-covid-vaccines-can-visit-these-countrie

Balance you inadvertently cut the "s" off the end of your 2nd link which makes it not work. You may want to edit it

[fungus pudding]

Balance you inadvertently cut the "s" off the end of your 2nd link which makes it not work. You may want to edit it

For DIYers If you have a look to the right of A on your keyboard, there's an s there.

[Balance]

Balance you inadvertently cut the "s" off the end of your 2nd link which makes it not work. You may want to edit it

Done - thx & cheers

[SBQ]

Read carefully :

"If all NZers are vaccinated by say, end of April - NZ would be able to be opened up for international tourism and allow in visitors from relatively covid-free countries (think China & Oz) and those who are vaccinated."

That's the whole basis of the TransTasman travel bubble to be announced :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/transtasman-bubble-airports-airlines-ready-to-go/H5E2UCOW65MFG45TDS62M4FB7A/

and the recent controlled opening up of Poland & China to vaccinated visitors.

And some tourism dependent countries are already implementing the vaccination travel rules to allow in tourists :

https://www.afar.com/magazine/travelers-with-covid-vaccines-can-visit-these-countries


First link made 0 mention of tourists being vaccinated. It just talk about a time when the borders will open up.

Second link again, all dependent on the vaccine roll out in those other countries who plan to start traveling. Croatia opening doors for those that are vaccinated. As I mentioned before, what reason does NZ have to be quickly vaccinated ? My guess would be NZ residents wanting to visit abroad - but that's of no benefit to the NZ economy (those who spend their tourist $$ abroad).

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/chris-mcdowall-why-is-the-govt-not-sharing-vaccination-data-with-the-public/HGUCZU7ADGPE2533QORUPOXTUE/

Paywalled

So why is Cindy & MOH not sharing the vaccination numbers & rollout data with NZers?

The team of incompetents is attempting to hide the fact that other countries are charging ahead while NZ has gone from head of the vaccine queue to the very last in the OECD.

[iceman]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/chris-mcdowall-why-is-the-govt-not-sharing-vaccination-data-with-the-public/HGUCZU7ADGPE2533QORUPOXTUE/

Paywalled

So why is Cindy & MOH not sharing the vaccination numbers & rollout data with NZers?

The team of incompetents is attempting to hide the fact that other countries are charging ahead while NZ has gone from head of the vaccine queue to the very last in the OECD.

Because the program is a complete disaster. Totally unprepared both on the ground and haven't even developed software to report the data. Once again caught completely out of their depths these bl..dy incompetents. 52k people have received a jab in 45 days since vaccinations started, which is disgraceful while other countries are racing ahead. USA inviting everyone over 16 to have a jab from 19 April and we haven't even done our frontline staff.
This is a further huge damage to our tourism industry which will miss a lot of the pent up demand Worldwide for travel as we will not be ready when most of the World will start travelling again.

[tim23]

Because the program is a complete disaster. Totally unprepared both on the ground and haven't even developed software to report the data. Once again caught completely out of their depths these bl..dy incompetents. 52k people have received a jab in 45 days since vaccinations started, which is disgraceful while other countries are racing ahead. USA inviting everyone over 16 to have a jab from 19 April and we haven't even done our frontline staff.
This is a further huge damage to our tourism industry which will miss a lot of the pent up demand Worldwide for travel as we will not be ready when most of the World will start travelling again.

Are you sure only 52k have had the vaccination? I heard a figure of 96k on HDA drive show tonight.

[iceman]

Are you sure only 52k have had the vaccination? I heard a figure of 96k on HDA drive show tonight.

According to the above article:
"A Ministry of Health spokesperson responds to the Herald, confirming that 52,183 people have received one or more doses of the vaccine."

This was on 1 April which is the last update the Herald has received. The whole article is about how difficult it is to get regular updates which is pathetic.

[tim23]

According to the above article:
"A Ministry of Health spokesperson responds to the Herald, confirming that 52,183 people have received one or more doses of the vaccine."

This was on 1 April which is the last update the Herald has received. The whole article is about how difficult it is to get regular updates which is pathetic.

Thanks - does seem on the light side though.

[iceman]

tim23 I see just reading some articles now that it appears it is now up to around 90,000, or "only" 300,000 short of the plan according to a leaked MOH report. But why is this information not easily accessible and updated daily or every couple of days like many other countries , rather than media having to speculate ? Particularly from a Government that claims to be the most transparent ever !

[jonu]

More excellence and transparency from our magnificent government

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/health-minister-denies-cock-up-or-conspiracy-behind-controversial-mental-health-report/ar-BB1fpm0o?ocid=msedgntp

No surprise that Little is in the the thick of it.

[dobby41]

More excellence and transparency from our magnificent government

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/health-minister-denies-cock-up-or-conspiracy-behind-controversial-mental-health-report/ar-BB1fpm0o?ocid=msedgntp

No surprise that Little is in the the thick of it.

You need to dig a little deeper.
Was covered in Parliament at question time and covered well.
One persons opinion does not make a fact.

[jonu]

You need to dig a little deeper.
Was covered in Parliament at question time and covered well.
One persons opinion does not make a fact.

Little was quoted in the Newshub piece. His responses did "Little" to satisfy me.

I reckon the Mental Health Foundation is well placed to call BS when they see it.

This government's arrogance is breathtaking. Matched only by the blind adherence of its advocates. Wake up and smell the coffee dobby41. Ardern, Robertson, Little et al, have shafted their voter base in almost every measurable respect.

Labour was once the Party of the Working Class and Underdog. Now Labour spends its time treading them further into the mud. Whether by incompetence or ambition is hard to judge.

[dobby41]

Little was quoted in the Newshub piece. His responses did "Little" to satisfy me.


I wouldn't expect any response to satisfy you!

[jonu]

I wouldn't expect any response to satisfy you!

Perhaps you could regale us with how Cindy and her lot have had net gains for their voter base? Bearing in mind raises in minimum wage and benefit increases are a nett loss on rising housing costs alone.

[Welly]

tim23 I see just reading some articles now that it appears it is now up to around 90,000, or "only" 300,000 short of the plan according to a leaked MOH report. But why is this information not easily accessible and updated daily or every couple of days like many other countries , rather than media having to speculate ? Particularly from a Government that claims to be the most transparent ever !

Vaccination data is available online, no need for speculation
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-vaccine-data

[tim23]

tim23 I see just reading some articles now that it appears it is now up to around 90,000, or "only" 300,000 short of the plan according to a leaked MOH report. But why is this information not easily accessible and updated daily or every couple of days like many other countries , rather than media having to speculate ? Particularly from a Government that claims to be the most transparent ever !

Yes I read in Dompost today - either way we agree its a bit on the light side.

[tim23]

Perhaps you could regale us with how Cindy and her lot have had net gains for their voter base? Bearing in mind raises in minimum wage and benefit increases are a nett loss on rising housing costs alone.

Well at least these increases help people at the bottom.

[Balance]

Perhaps you could regale us with how Cindy and her lot have had net gains for their voter base? Bearing in mind raises in minimum wage and benefit increases are a nett loss on rising housing costs alone.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/renting/124781157/rents-rising-fastest-in-provincial-areas

Welcome to Cindy’s solution to housing shortage - $1 billion every 3 months in accommodation support - while rental increases go up through the roof.

Smart girl - helping landlords to make more money using taxpayers’ funds!

[fungus pudding]

Well at least these increases help people at the bottom.

Do they? Such measures are inflationary, and inflation most often benefits the well off, but punishes the less well off and lower paid. It's done to garner votes from the hoi polloi who generally don't feel the huge vacuum as they are sucked in.

[Balance]

Do they? Such measures are inflationary, and inflation most often benefits the well off, but punishes the less well off and lower paid. It's done to garner votes from the hoi polloi who generally don't feel the huge vacuum as they are sucked in.

Exactly.

Labour plays to the ignorant - feeds their greed & hunger with handouts for their votes.

Breeds them like multiplying mice to be dependent Labour voters.

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300272822/covid19-authorities-unable-to-say-how-many-border-workers-unvaccinated

Not a clue how many frontline workers have been vaccinated.

So what the heck have Cindy, Hipkins and MOH been doing?

Oh yes, basking in the adulation of the faithfuls and the world and sleeping on the job while the cook ups happen.

[FTG]

One couldn't make this stuff up! But then again Governments & their Bureaucrats aren't exactly renowned for the smooth running of logistics.

[Balance]

One couldn't make this stuff up! But then again Governments & their Bureaucrats aren't exactly renowned for the smooth running of logistics.

One year of blunders - one after another.

Starting with what's that idiot Health Minister breaching lockdown rules, then the quarantine debacles (several) - this government is incapable of learning and is glaringly incompetent.

[tim23]

One year of blunders - one after another.

Starting with what's that idiot Health Minister breaching lockdown rules, then the quarantine debacles (several) - this government is incapable of learning and is glaringly incompetent.

Not in the opinion of the electorate, see 2020 result, Labour won it on their own.

[Balance]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/440191/health-ministry-s-handling-of-vaccines-rollout-a-shambles-rest-home-boss

Shambles - that’s how the vaccination roll out is being described by frontliners still waiting for dates.

[winner69]

Nice article on Grant Robertson in North & South

Surprised it was allowed to be published - just highlighted that he been in Parliament for 13 yrs, MoF for 3+yrs & is now Dep PM & yet seems to have no substantive policy achievements to his name or firm policy agendas on how to improve NZ's pathetic productivity......but he's going to fix the housing problem

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/124812778/covid19-brigadier-jim-bliss-wont-express-confidence-in-routine-testing-of-border-staff

‘But when further questioned on whether testing was occurring per the 14 day requirement, Bliss would not say he was confident.’

Of course not - an unvaccinated worker has just tested positive and he was not tested every 14 days as required.

Déjà vu - same government of incompetents, same result.

[Balance]

Trust Clueless Cindy & her team of incompetent nincompoops to protect NZ from further outbreaks of the virus?

A managed isolation security guard who tested positive for Covid-19 is thought to have received his last test for the virus in November.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...since-november

Tremain on Wednesday said it was not known how many workers had been missed in the needed surveillance testing.

[Balance]

Bumbling along in the vaccination roll-out with political correctness and BS more important than getting the vulnerables vaccinated asap :

1. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-...SYNR3PNFOKGCA/

Otara vaccination centre - fully staffed & operating at lower than 50% capacity - because it is so important (according to the Maori MPs) to look after the welfare of Maoris and Pacific Islanders' who have been crying out for preferential access.

Well, they have it and they are not using it - sounds familiar, doesn't it?

1ZB sent a reporter there today and she was told she could have a jab even though she is not in any of the priority group!

2. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/124832024/covid19-minister-backs-creative-social-media-post-offering-surplus-vaccines

Over-supply of the vaccines to one location while there's shortages elsewhere.

[tim23]

Bumbling along in the vaccination roll-out with political correctness and BS more important than getting the vulnerables vaccinated asap :

1. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-...SYNR3PNFOKGCA/

Otara vaccination centre - fully staffed & operating at lower than 50% capacity - because it is so important (according to the Maori MPs) to look after the welfare of Maoris and Pacific Islanders' who have been crying out for preferential access.

Well, they have it and they are not using it - sounds familiar, doesn't it?

1ZB sent a reporter there today and she was told she could have a jab even though she is not in any of the priority group!

2. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...rplus-vaccines

Over-supply of the vaccines to one location while there's shortages elsewhere.

It must get tiresome constantly finding faults, in fact you would fit in well at Newstalk ZB with Hosking but remember that the person who never did anything never made a mistake.

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/124834931/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-alleges-infected-miq-security-guard-lied-about-getting-covid19-tests

The Clueless Cindy its attempting to deflect from her government's failures by blaming others - getting desperate.

Just as she did with the KFC worker who challenged her version of events.

Never learn - poor Cindy.

[westerly]

Bumbling along in the vaccination roll-out with political correctness and BS more important than getting the vulnerables vaccinated asap :

1. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-...SYNR3PNFOKGCA/

Otara vaccination centre - fully staffed & operating at lower than 50% capacity - because it is so important (according to the Maori MPs) to look after the welfare of Maoris and Pacific Islanders' who have been crying out for preferential access.

Well, they have it and they are not using it - sounds familiar, doesn't it?

1ZB sent a reporter there today and she was told she could have a jab even though she is not in any of the priority group!

2. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...rplus-vaccines

Over-supply of the vaccines to one location while there's shortages elsewhere.

Just as well you have no input into the vaccination roll out - your links lead nowhere.

westerly

[Baa_Baa]

The government has screwed up on their delivery and monitoring of vaccinations, they've admitted this albeit in political speak. Better that they clamp down on the failings and fix them, while the apologists might reflect on why they defend inadequacies which are blindingly obvious.

Sometimes it is better to just admit that the ball has been dropped and steps are being made to rectify those failings, rather than defending the incompetence. We are all subjects of the crown and expect high standards protecting us. When it is clear that those standards are compromised, surely we all should rally in our expectations to meet them?

It's not political, per se. It's about what's best for all of us. The current state is inadequate. We should be concerned collectively about what is being done to rectify this.

[JBmurc]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/renting/124781157/rents-rising-fastest-in-provincial-areas

Welcome to Cindy’s solution to housing shortage - $1 billion every 3 months in accommodation support - while rental increases go up through the roof.

Smart girl - helping landlords to make more money using taxpayers’ funds!

I heard on CNBC today ... NZ has the highest homeless numbers to population in the developed world .. but don't we have the kindness leader in the world????

[winner69]

The government has screwed up on their delivery and monitoring of vaccinations, they've admitted this albeit in political speak. Better that they clamp down on the failings and fix them, while the apologists might reflect on why they defend inadequacies which are blindingly obvious.

Sometimes it is better to just admit that the ball has been dropped and steps are being made to rectify those failings, rather than defending the incompetence. We are all subjects of the crown and expect high standards protecting us. When it is clear that those standards are compromised, surely we all should rally in our expectations to meet them?

It's not political, per se. It's about what's best for all of us. The current state is inadequate. We should be concerned collectively about what is being done to rectify this.

Hipkins would say ‘ultimately’ it’s your responsbility ...what ever that means

[fungus pudding]

Hipkins would say ‘ultimately’ it’s your responsbility ...whatwvwe that means

Whatever whatwvwe means ......

[jonu]

The government has screwed up on their delivery and monitoring of vaccinations, they've admitted this albeit in political speak. Better that they clamp down on the failings and fix them, while the apologists might reflect on why they defend inadequacies which are blindingly obvious.

Sometimes it is better to just admit that the ball has been dropped and steps are being made to rectify those failings, rather than defending the incompetence. We are all subjects of the crown and expect high standards protecting us. When it is clear that those standards are compromised, surely we all should rally in our expectations to meet them?

It's not political, per se. It's about what's best for all of us. The current state is inadequate. We should be concerned collectively about what is being done to rectify this.

Good post.

As with most governments, they have forgotten that they are there to serve, not just maintain power by any means. This sadly, applies to governments of all hues.

[Balance]

Good post.

As with most governments, they have forgotten that they are there to serve, not just maintain power by any means. This sadly, applies to governments of all hues.

Never more than Clueless Cindy's government.

The days of promises of transparency & accountability are over - now it's naked attempts at cover-ups and spinning failures into successes.

[winner69]

Bishop says these committe things a bit of a rort .....the ‘defendants’ can talk for most of the time (outlying what they done) and time left for questioning is squat or

[winner69]

Taxpayers Union tweeted this yesterday

This is not a joke. Something very odd just happened to our analyst.

He received a response to an OIA request about Cabinet Papers presented by various ministers. He opened the attachment, and it wasn't what he was expecting:

[Balance]

Taxpayers Union tweeted this yesterday

This is not a joke. Something very odd just happened to our analyst.

He received a response to an OIA request about Cabinet Papers presented by various ministers. He opened the attachment, and it wasn't what he was expecting:

Good one, W69!

[Balance]

Never more than Clueless Cindy's government.

The days of promises of transparency & accountability are over - now it's naked attempts at cover-ups and spinning failures into successes.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-lucky-walk-ins-get-early-vaccinations-to-avoid-doses-expiring/KPY4D4W26UD4CWCNAQXGPZ2T3A/

A prime example these days of the government stuff ups but attempting to spin as something positive.

Vaccines (already in short supply) are sent without proper vaccination programs in place (revealing the shambles) so the 'surplus' vaccines are willy nilly used on any & sundry in case they expire - but the spin is that it is a positive thing!

What tripe & garbage! It is not like the government did not have months and months to plan and organize the vaccination program!

Excerpts from article above:

"The DHB received an excess 1400 Covid-19 vaccine doses last week which would have expired yesterday.

So if you think you are going to have vaccines that would expire rather than giving them to people, then give them to people."

Meanwhile, there are border & frontline staff who are unvaccinated!

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/124842764/miq-contractor-first-security-disputes-government-misinformation-over-covid19-testing-failure-of-border-worker

More spin - the border barrier against the virus is only as strong as its weakest point and this government has no idea how many quarantine staff have not been vaccinated and how many have not been tested regularly!

Took a positive case to blow a big hole in the spin that they are doing a great job!

What other holes are there out there?

[tim23]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/124842764/miq-contractor-first-security-disputes-government-misinformation-over-covid19-testing-failure-of-border-worker

More spin - the border barrier against the virus is only as strong as its weakest point and this government has no idea how many quarantine staff have not been vaccinated and how many have not been tested regularly!

Took a positive case to blow a big hole in the spin that they are doing a great job!

What other holes are there out there?

Are you the twin brother of Mike Hosking?

[Balance]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/440564/covid-19-committee-carry-on-catches-labour-lacking

Amazing! Hard to believe but even Speaker Mallard was appalled at Labour's attempts to make a mockery & circus of the questioning of MIQ & frontline testing regime.

A government of cover-ups and incompetence trying to hide their failures.

And this is the despicable person, MP Dr Liz Craig, who thinks it is her job to hide the truth from the public :

https://www.labour.org.nz/lizcraig

With her type of deviousness & lack of transparency,, it's no wonder that this government is failing in eradicating and reducing child poverty, & improving child welfare.

[tim23]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/440564/covid-19-committee-carry-on-catches-labour-lacking

Amazing! Hard to believe but even Speaker Mallard was appalled at Labour's attempts to make a mockery & circus of the questioning of MIQ & frontline testing regime.

A government of cover-ups and incompetence trying to hide their failures.

And this is the despicable person, MP Dr Liz Craig, who thinks it is her job to hide the truth from the public :

https://www.labour.org.nz/lizcraig

With her type of deviousness & lack of transparency,, it's no wonder that this government is failing in eradication child poverty & welfare.

Whats it like being perfect Balance?

[fungus pudding]

Whats it like being perfect Balance?

I'm surprised you think he's perfect.

[tim23]

I'm surprised you think he's perfect.

Not bad for you, you made me laugh.

[Marilyn Munroe]

RadioNZ headline, "Government to give Amazon over $100m boost for Lord of the Rings filming"

Let me see if I have this right? A socialist government is giving one of the richest men in the world a subsidy which will be paid for with workers taxes earned while sweating in shearing sheds or wiping residents bottoms in rest homes.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

[Balance]

RadioNZ headline, "Government to give Amazon over $100m boost for Lord of the Rings filming"

Let me see if I have this right? A socialist government is giving one of the richest men in the world a subsidy which will be paid for with workers taxes earned while sweating in shearing sheds or wiping residents bottoms in rest homes.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

Hardly a surprise, is it?

The photo-opportunities to come for Clueless Cindy will be priceless but the $100m are taxpayers' funds and are not hers or the Labour Party.

$100m = Priceless for Clueless Cindy, fair exchange?

[Balance]

I'm surprised you think he's perfect.

No one is perfect except Clueless Cindy, according to the 'overwhelming' mandate given to her in the 2020 election - that's how the supporters and some of the posters here (especially the females) want her to be perceived.

[fungus pudding]

RadioNZ headline, "Government to give Amazon over $100m boost for Lord of the Rings filming"

Let me see if I have this right? A socialist government is giving one of the richest men in the world a subsidy which will be paid for with workers taxes earned while sweating in shearing sheds or wiping residents bottoms in rest homes.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

Socialists have always been fond of redistribution. And just think - some of the sweaters and bottom wipers could become film directors or actors.

[macduffy]

What's the old saying about candy and babies? Or am I thinking of fools and their - or rather, our, money?

:ohmy:

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-coronavirus-opinion-labours-indefensible-cynical-behaviour-leaves-us-all-poorer/LSGZQAECEDACYVT63PJKLH36OY/

Paywalled

Despicable and totally irresponsible repugnant behaviour by Clueless Cindy’s lapdogs and bottom wipers to shut down and frustrate accountability & responsibility for the cock-ups at border controls.

Disgusting display of incompetence & arrogance - worse possible combination in any person, let alone in government MPs and ministers charged with overseeing the health needs of the 'team of 5 million'.

Excerpt :

1. "Did you know returnees spend 14 days in MIQ after they arrive in New Zealand? Or that Covid-19 can be transmitted via air particles as well as droplets?

The Labour MPs on Parliament's health committee apparently have such an insufficient grasp of such issues that they needed a 20-minute "idiot's guide" presentation from the heads of Health and MBIE this week."

2. "When it was finally his turn, Bishop's line of questioning was broken up by Labour's Ginny Andersen asking about the benefits of giving vaccines to border workers first.

And when Bishop tried to resume his questioning, Craig declared that time was up, noting the committee had already agreed to the 20-minute presentation in the first place."

And here's why Cindy's bottom wipers panicked and shut down further questioning :

" ..... committees are also invaluable opportunities for any MP - not just the Opposition - to grill officials on key issues, and there is none more important than the Covid response.

Bishop's first question elicited the big reveal that an infected Grand Millennium security guard - who should be tested fortnightly - had gone untested for five months, and that MBIE didn't know how many MIQ workers were missing their regular tests."

[RGR367]

This gov't re CoVid19 response is all just about "we will keep improving our procedures". Clueless to what they're doing actually but very concerned to put up a press con just to look good for their voters.

[westerly]

Whats it like being perfect Balance?

He is not perfect, more obsessive.

westerly

[Balance]

He is not perfect, more obsessive.

westerly

Obsessive maybe ....

.... but not regressive like those who support the inability of Clueless Cindy & her team of nincompoops to learn from past mistakes (one after another after another)

And

Certainly not repressive of the truth and accountability by using spin & bull headed frustration efforts to hide mistakes and putting lives & livelihoods at risk.

[Bill Smith]

When Mallard rules labour has indulged in despicable behaviour, surely it is truly despicable behaviour by the committee.

[Balance]

When Mallard rules labour has indulged in despicable behaviour, surely it is truly despicable behaviour by the committee.

Not only despicable but increasingly desperate as this government shows itself clueless in the post lockdown world.

Good summary here (albeit not objective) :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/steven-joyce-labour-drifting-along-on-a-road-to-nowhere/COTS2OMJR6FUSVQY7VDVPO5NOU/

There is an emerging sense that New Zealand is drifting along post-Covid while much of the rest of the world cranks up.

There is no momentum around vaccine rollouts,

no obvious plan for economic recovery (in fact the reverse),

nor

any sign of a plan to open up to the world.

Some days we seem stuck inside a never-ending loop of plugging holes in the border that we were previously led to believe were already plugged.

[artemis]

When Mallard rules labour has indulged in despicable behaviour, surely it is truly despicable behaviour by the committee.

Yes, but the responsibility lies firmly with the Select Committee chair, Liz Craig. Copybook well and truly blotted.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/rubbish-spilling-out-of-west-auckland-state-home-blocking-footpath/ZA3S2APFWAAUEGVAJR3RXT2AOA/

Example of the sort of rock solid supporters Clueless Cindy loves to breed.

[Bill Smith]

craig may have carried out the obfuscation, but she would have been instructed on what to do by some other labour scumbag.

[Balance]

craig may have carried out the obfuscation, but she would have been instructed on what to do by some other labour scumbag.

Watching Hipkins ducking and diving on TV1 over the government’s failures to keep our borders intact against the virus.

Assurances as usual that things are all under control & fine but we all know that the government’s assurances are worth - zip.

Then, there’s Hipkins disavowing any responsibility for the arrogant & cynical use of committee hearings by Liz Craig to frustrate accountability & answer pertinent questions regarding quarantine failures. He conveniently forgets he is in charge of Covid response and Liz (cynical cow) is a red card flag waving Labour MP.

[Marilyn Munroe]

I have been communing with the spirit of George Orwell.

He wanted to know if the body set up to enforce the current governments hate speech laws is going to be called the Ministry of Truth?

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

[JBmurc]

https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/04/dear-comrade-jacinda/

What a JOKE our Govt is !! and National not much better wake up Kiwis we are heading down a very dark road under incompetent leaders

[jonu]

I have been communing with the spirit of George Orwell.

He wanted to know if the body set up to enforce the current governments hate speech laws is going to be called the Ministry of Truth?

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

Have to admire Chris Trotter, a Leftie with principles, something that is lacking in Cindy's government.

https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/109997/chris-trotter-asks-whether-government%E2%80%99s-proposed-cure-hate-speech-worse-complaint

Be afraid.

[fungus pudding]

Have to admire Chris Trotter, a Leftie with principles, something that is lacking in Cindy's government.

https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/109997/chris-trotter-asks-whether-government%E2%80%99s-proposed-cure-hate-speech-worse-complaint

Be afraid.

A 'principled leftie' is an oxy-moron. Where's the principle in their commonly held belief, 'what's yours is ours'?

[westerly]

https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/04/dear-comrade-jacinda/

What a JOKE our Govt is !! and National not much better wake up Kiwis we are heading down a very dark road under incompetent leaders

What would you expect from Oliver Hartwich a German economist now with the NZ Initiative, a think tank originating from the Business Round Table.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

What would you expect from Oliver Hartwich a German economist now with the NZ Initiative, a think tank originating from the Business Round Table.

westerly

I would expect a few facts, a few figures and a healthy degree of criticism; exactly what that brief report contains.

[jonu]

What would you expect from Oliver Hartwich a German economist now with the NZ Initiative, a think tank originating from the Business Round Table.

westerly

How about rebutting the arguments instead of attacking the person?

BTW, the article is written by Amy Brooke, and she quotes a chap called Steve Rotherham regarding the scandalous energy situation. I don't see Oliver Hartwich's name in it.

[RTM]

https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/04/dear-comrade-jacinda/

What a JOKE our Govt is !! and National not much better wake up Kiwis we are heading down a very dark road under incompetent leaders

Recommend everyone take care when googling to find our who Amy Brooke is.......

[jonu]

The murky funding arrangement for Cindy's bailout at Ihumatao is starting to emerge. Treasury advised against it, considering it a misuse of the scheme that was used to fund it.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/treasury-warned-government-against-the-way-it-did-ihum%C4%81tao-deal/ar-BB1eAF1j?ocid=msedgntp

But did that concern our Cindy? Not on yer nelly! Another mess of her own making off her plate, with a showering of our money, that was budgeted for other things. Good one Cindy.

OH MY OH MY

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/extremely-dodgy-behaviour-national-act-hammer-in-criticism-over-unlawful-ihum%C4%81tao-deal/ar-BB1fQ149?ocid=msedgntp

Cindy, Megan and Grant been caught red handed misusing public money to solve the mess made by Cindy

Note how Cindy is already trying to justify using taxpayer funds as a slush fund. Grubby, grubby and grubby.

This won't go away. Sweet kind Cindy exposed for all to see.

[westerly]

Recommend everyone take care when googling to find our who Amy Brooke is.......

You are quite correct, but there is a connection-https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-myth-of-saint-jacinda

westerly

[Balance]

OH MY OH MY

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/extremely-dodgy-behaviour-national-act-hammer-in-criticism-over-unlawful-ihum%C4%81tao-deal/ar-BB1fQ149?ocid=msedgntp

Cindy, Megan and Grant been caught red handed misusing public money to solve the mess made by Cindy

Note how Cindy is already trying to justify using taxpayer funds as a slush fund. Grubby, grubby and grubby.

This won't go away. Sweet kind Cindy exposed for all to see.

It is an old saying that in politics, governments become unbearably arrogant in their term term.

This one is doing the arrogance thing in the beginning of the second term.

[Balance]

Arrogant but afraid - that's Clueless Cindy.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/rob-rattenbury-ardern-backs-off-media-interviews-while-labour-is-struggling/EIBLVNFJ3STYZHVU7HHLGR2JSI/?&ref=topbox

Six months into its second term of government with enough of a majority to govern alone, Labour is struggling to get a breakthrough in housing, the homeless and, to some extent is wearying of having to deal with Covid-19.

Since Parliament returned this year, the Prime Minister, in my view, seems to have lost her edge and become defensive to the extent that she is now choosing carefully who will be allowed to interview her amongst media.

[Getty]

That must mean there is a gap in her exposure.

Whats the chances of granting her a resident spot on here?

[Zaphod]

OH MY OH MY

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/extremely-dodgy-behaviour-national-act-hammer-in-criticism-over-unlawful-ihum%C4%81tao-deal/ar-BB1fQ149?ocid=msedgntp

Cindy, Megan and Grant been caught red handed misusing public money to solve the mess made by Cindy

Note how Cindy is already trying to justify using taxpayer funds as a slush fund. Grubby, grubby and grubby.

This won't go away. Sweet kind Cindy exposed for all to see.

This will no doubt be fixed with the stroke of a retrospective pen.

[Getty]

That must mean there is a gap in her exposure.

Whats the chances of granting her a resident spot on here?

Cindy, welcome to our new show, the BARth and GRILL...

[jonu]

This will no doubt be fixed with the stroke of a retrospective pen.

Maybe so, but this pen leaves an indelible stain on their collective reputation. Cindy, Grant and Megan, ignoring correct advice regarding our money, for their own political ends.

Grub, Grubby, and Grubbier.

[artemis]

This will no doubt be fixed with the stroke of a retrospective pen.

Done. Probably after the OAG got involved. Problem is that the issue of Ihumatao has raised a whole lot of New Zealand eyebrows, and not in a good way. There will for sure be developers thinking very hard before undertaking certain new developments that might attract protests.

[dobby41]

It is an old saying that in politics, governments become unbearably arrogant in their term term.

This one is doing the arrogance thing in the beginning of the second term.

What is a 'term term'?

[Balance]

What is a 'term term'?

Third term.

Thx for pointing out.

[fungus pudding]

Third term.

Thx for pointing out.

How is it that I've never heard it said that governments become unbearably arrogant in their third term, if it's 'an old saying'? Am I too young? My observations suggest that arrogance kicks in well and truely in the second term - and destroys them in the third. Not always of course, but often enough and both major parties have suffered from it.

[jonu]

Oh Dear....Cindy's lot have been exposed again. all huff and puff and bugger all delivery.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300287913/government-may-axe-promised-roads-as-costs-mount-in-12b-infrastructure-package

[stoploss]

How is it that I've never heard it said that governments become unbearably arrogant in their third term, if it's 'an old saying'? Am I too young? My observations suggest that arrogance kicks in well and truely in the second term - and destroys them in the third. Not always of course, but often enough and both major parties have suffered from it.
Plenty of references if you look
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121463969/are-these-the-first-signs-of-third-term-arrogance-from-a-first-term-government

[dobby41]

Plenty of references if you look
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121463969/are-these-the-first-signs-of-third-term-arrogance-from-a-first-term-government

An opinion piece from a year ago - does it stack up now, one year on?

[fungus pudding]

An opinion piece from a year ago - does it stack up now, one year on?

The question is, 'is the govt. holding up in popularity'? I'd say it definitely is, mainly because of Arden's charisma, coupled with Collins' lack of any sort of appeal at all. They'll sleepwalk into a third term which is a sad state of affairs for NZ.
The majority of Labour's ministers are without any talent at all - a bunch of complete no-hopers. National are only a small degree better, but without a winning leader.

[dobby41]

The majority of Labour's ministers are without any talent at all - a bunch of complete no-hopers. National are only a small degree better, but without a winning leader.

Audrey Young rates the Ministers - premium article if you can read it
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/audrey-young-rating-jacinda-arderns-second-term-cabinet-after-six-months/F2FIR46UDDIFD7KIIQ3REWBPW4/

[fungus pudding]

Audrey Young rates the Ministers - premium article if you can read it
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/audrey-young-rating-jacinda-arderns-second-term-cabinet-after-six-months/F2FIR46UDDIFD7KIIQ3REWBPW4/

Can't access - not a subsciber.
But who got the brownie points?

[dobby41]

Can't access - not a subsciber.
But who got the brownie points?

Ardern gets 8/10
Robertson 9/10, as does Little and Wood
Hipkins gets 8/10 as does Nash, Mahuta,
O'Conner gets a low of 4/10
Quite a few 7/10

[fungus pudding]

Ardern gets 8/10
Robertson 9/10, as does Little and Wood
Hipkins gets 8/10 as does Nash, Mahuta,
O'Conner gets a low of 4/10
Quite a few 7/10

Thanks. Generous markings. I certainly don't consider Little or wood equal with Robertson.

[macduffy]

Thanks. Generous markings. I certainly don't consider Little or wood equal with Robertson.

I agree. If Little is a 9, everyone else is a 10+ !

;)

[dobby41]

Thanks. Generous markings. I certainly don't consider Little or wood equal with Robertson.

PS - that's Michael Wood rather than Megan Woods (she got 7/10)

[jonu]

Interesting to see how Ardern's "Be kind" government manifests itself'

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/pharmac-likely-to-end-blanket-funding-for-kids-cancer-drugs/ar-BB1ghSvi?ocid=msedgntp

Compare with the money spent for political gain on Pike River. Appalling.

[dobby41]

Meanwhile the Nats just keep trying to play the race card.

[fungus pudding]

Meanwhile the Nats just keep trying to play the race card.

While some posters, short of originality or imagination, keep parroting dopey cliches.

[dobby41]

While some posters, short of originality or imagination, keep parroting dopey cliches.

Like this?

[Balance]

Meanwhile the Nats just keep trying to play the race card.

Actually, what Judith Collins has highlighted as separatist tendencies deserves a reply from Cindy.

NZ will not get one of course because it will be like the question regarding Trevor Mallard repaying the $300k+ for stabbing an innocent man in the back - the truth is best ignored.

[fungus pudding]

Like this?

Like puke inducing, corny nonsense like 'playing race cards'.

[artemis]

Like puke inducing, corny nonsense like 'playing race cards'.

Suggest 'playing the democracy card' would be more accurate.

[Getty]

Actually, what Judith Collins has highlighted as separatist tendencies deserves a reply from Cindy.

NZ will not get one of course because it will be like the question regarding Trevor Mallard repaying the $300k+ for stabbing an innocent man in the back - the truth is best ignored.

As someone who was involved with the 1981 Springbok tour of NZ, and witnessed & experienced much of the protest against a separatist regime in South Africa, I'm amazed how unchallenged separatist policies are being implemented in NZ.

It will only get worst with the influence of the Maori caucus.

Racism is being written into law and govt policy, yet very few challenge it, lest they be judged racist.

Wake up NZ.

[fungus pudding]

As someone who was involved with the 1981 Springbok tour of NZ, and witnessed & experienced much of the protest against a separatist regime in South Africa, I'm amazed how unchallenged separatist policies are being implemented in NZ.

It will only get worst with the influence of the Maori caucus.

Racism is being written into law and govt policy, yet very few challenge it, lest they be judged racist.

Wake up NZ.

Being wide awake is one thing - being brave enough to crawl out from under the blankets is another, and that is the problem, and why things will get worse. I well recall the Springbks tour. Frightening scenes which I don't want to see repeated, but we will.

[Sgt Pepper]

Being wide awake is one thing - being brave enough to crawl out from under the blankets is another, and that is the problem, and why things will get worse. I well recall the Springbks tour. Frightening scenes which I don't want to see repeated, but we will.

It is with some degree of trepidation that I await the unveiling of the revised hate speech laws by Andrew Little. I am sure it is with the best of intentions but the potential criminalisation of stupid opinions may be a concern. The problem is in our current environment you must be brave to voice a dissenting opinion. What are others opinions?

[Baa_Baa]

It is with some degree of trepidation that I await the unveiling of the revised hate speech laws by Andrew Little. I am sure it is with the best of intentions but the potential criminalisation of stupid opinions may be a concern. The problem is in our current environment you must be brave to voice a dissenting opinion. What are others opinions?

I'm not brave enough, probably. Thinking people will see through the rhetoric and can make up their own minds about what is happening and where it may be leading.

[Marilyn Munroe]

A hypothetical phone call made by Megan Woods to oil explorers;

"Hi this is New Zealand's Energy Minister. We are in a bit of a pickle over electricity generating capacity. Can you come back and start drilling for gas?"

The likely response would be click on the line as she is hung up on.

If the current government were to drop its pretense of infallibility as the lights flicker and dim by trying to restart oil and gas exploration it would need to provide reassurance and incentives for oil companies.

One way to achieve this would be for PetroCorp to be reestablished, to farm into exploration with taxpayers money. A subsidy to drill in other words.

Oh dear, the taxpayers pockets raided once again.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

[jonu]

It is with some degree of trepidation that I await the unveiling of the revised hate speech laws by Andrew Little. I am sure it is with the best of intentions but the potential criminalisation of stupid opinions may be a concern. The problem is in our current environment you must be brave to voice a dissenting opinion. What are others opinions?

I've said it repeatedly, Andrew Little is a very dangerous man. A well meaning fool.

[jonu]

Ardern has finally woken up to the fact that she has a Cabinet of Incompetents. As both Collins and Seymour point out, it's a Minister's role to oversee spending of their Departments budget. Now Cindy apparently needs overseers for the overseers.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/they-couldn-t-deliver-uber-eats-collins-rips-into-deputy-pm-s-new-spending-oversight-group/ar-BB1gkgbI?ocid=msedgntp

Non delivery is perhaps proving to be Ardern's greatest skill. It's pretty hard to spend so much money and achieve so little.

[Balance]

Meanwhile the Nats just keep trying to play the race card.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/441787/opinion-ardern-in-the-gun-over-covert-maori-sovereignty-plan

Looks like Cindy has been caught out big time by Collins - Cindy has already started to implement two systems, one for Maoris and the other for everyone else.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/441818/he-puapua-report-government-has-nothing-to-hide-ardern

[dobby41]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/441787/opinion-ardern-in-the-gun-over-covert-maori-sovereignty-plan

Looks like Cindy has been caught out big time by Collins - Cindy has already started to implement two systems, one for Maoris and the other for everyone else.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/441818/he-puapua-report-government-has-nothing-to-hide-ardern

I'd expect someone like you to buy in to that from Collins. A very desperate person.

[Balance]

I'd expect someone like you to buy in to that from Collins. A very desperate person.

It’s clear you have not read the articles so please pair off with Cindy’s desperation to hide the truth from NZers.

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125031109/speaker-trevor-mallard-uses-parliamentary-privilege-to-defend-himself

Trevor Mallard - using Parliamentary privilege to change his story and make further accusations.

This is the sort of person Cindy lives to have by her side - a most hypocritical disgusting repugnant despicable woman.

[Getty]

Meanwhile the Nats just keep trying to play the race card.

Dobby, the race card IS being played in NZ, by the Labour govt.

Its what you get when a young PM was barely born in 1981, and didnt see the protest & riots in the streets, that made seabed & foreshore look like a nice day out in the park.
As for Chloe, Greens, it would never show up on her Google parameters

Who trusts Peeni & Willie Jackson?.

Who watches Maori TV, or Marae, and sees the 2 faced answers, the one you see there is different to the one on TV1 or 3, or the hard questions are just ignored. to avoid exposing the racist agenda.

Cant blame Judith Collins for what is happening, she is trying to tell you, but its an inconvenient truth to many.

[dobby41]

Dobby, the race card IS being played in NZ, by the Labour govt.

Its what you get when a young PM was barely born in 1981, and didnt see the protest & riots in the streets, that made seabed & foreshore look like a nice day out in the park.
As for Chloe, Greens, it would never show up on her Google parameters

Who trusts Peeni & Willie Jackson?.

Who watches Maori TV, or Marae, and sees the 2 faced answers, the one you see there is different to the one on TV1 or 3, or the hard questions are just ignored. to avoid exposing the racist agenda.

Cant blame Judith Collins for what is happening, she is trying to tell you, but its an inconvenient truth to many.

You do know about the Treaty of Waitangi?
It is an inconvenient truth to many.

[777]

You do know about the Treaty of Waitangi?
It is an inconvenient truth to many.

Like the bible.It can be interpreted in many ways.

[Bjauck]

Three more years of squeezing some of the non-retired middle class? In effect this government is now freezing the pay of public servants earning more than $60,000. Having introduced policies that have resulted in the continued surge in house prices, this government seems determined to rule out the ability to save for home ownership for its own employees in many parts of the country. Inheriting money may the way for many to secure the deposit for a house, if they are lucky enough.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300292597/government-announces-three-more-years-of-pay-restraint-for-public-servants

[Bjauck]

Like the bible.It can be interpreted in many ways. Unllike the bible though, Was The Treaty written with a forked tongue?

[Sir Ten]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125031109/speaker-trevor-mallard-uses-parliamentary-privilege-to-defend-himself

Trevor Mallard - using Parliamentary privilege to change his story and make further accusations.

This is the sort of person Cindy lives to have by her side - a most hypocritical disgusting repugnant despicable woman.

If only Mallard could fly... right over a Maimai during the opening weekend of this year's duck hunting season.

[iceman]

If only Mallard could fly... right over a Maimai during the opening weekend of this year's duck hunting season.

This bully has stooped to new lows. Using parliamentary privilege to once again attack the guy who's reputation he has already destroyed with straight out lies, at a cost of $330k for us tax payers. When asked to repeat his statement outside of parliament, he declined saying that would be in breach of the confidential settlement that was made with this poor guy last year. But Mallard thinks it's OK to go against of the intent of that agreement by hiding behind parliamentary privilege. What an utter scumbag and this is the Speaker of our parliament. A total disgrace.

[jonu]

Hipkins is here effectively saying Mallard's behaviour in the House was unacceptable (along with others) and in the next breath saying Mallard still enjoys Labour's confidence.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/labour-s-chris-hipkins-calls-on-all-mps-to-step-back-after-unruly-scenes-in-parliament/ar-BB1gmyCn?ocid=msedgntp

What are bunch of self serving hypocrites.

Labour holds the electorate in contempt. The longer they leave Mallard in place, the more their loathsome character is exposed.

[Sir Ten]

Hipkins is here effectively saying Mallard's behaviour in the House was unacceptable (along with others) and in the next breath saying Mallard still enjoys Labour's confidence.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/labour-s-chris-hipkins-calls-on-all-mps-to-step-back-after-unruly-scenes-in-parliament/ar-BB1gmyCn?ocid=msedgntp

What are bunch of self serving hypocrites.

Labour holds the electorate in contempt. The longer they leave Mallard in place, the more their loathsome character is exposed.

They're losers.

Plenty of other pejorative ways to describe them, but I think "losers" pretty much sums it up. They're kind of like those kids at school... you know the ones, the ones that everyone else thinks are dickheads, but through some monumental amount of naivety or ignorance they continue to push forward thinking they're doing a good job (with no sense of obligation or consequence), resolute that if they make a mistake, they should be applauded for "at least trying"... with parents in the background threatening to call you as a racist, bigot, sexist, elitist, etc. if you even dare question them.

The biggest issue in my view is that public service doesn't lend itself to attracting the best or the brightest... it's just a bunch of journeymen... maybe Joseph Parker should run? I digress. The sooner we recognise that Government is effectively a large business with an over-inflated ESG team, the better. We should be trying to make being a politician an attractive proposition to candidates who have something to genuinely add... rather than just those who have been there for a long-time and can drum up enough donations to get their mug on a few billboards every three years.

I'm immensely frustrated with this current government (mainly around their "over-promise, under-deliver" mantra and the contempt they show us when things don't pan out, and not necessarily for reasons beyond their control) but, to be fair to them (and all past governments), I think it is just a function of the system and parameters they work within.

I think the government should operate more like a business. One that carries both risk and reward. At the moment, there is a moderate amount of upside/financial reward, but a massive amount of downside protection - ILG, David Parker, Trevor Mallard, the list is long (and fairly extends to the National government past).

I don't profess to know how or what KPIs you could/should/would set these jokers, but at a fundamental level I think there are currently very limited consequences for failure, which doesn't align with the rest of society's economic and social expectations and norms - i.e. if I'm employed by Company ABC and I say I am going to do X to achieve Y, and Y ends up being Y-1,000,000, then I would expect a negative personal/professionl/financial outcome.

I think if you start paying these people a lot more (say, $1-2m p.a.) and they fail to deliver, voters should/would apply a higher level of scrutiny around actual performance. And by the way, I'd prefer the $1-2m to be split say 30:70 or 50:50 based on performance. I get it, defining "performance" in politics is hard as it is so emotive and ambiguous, but that shouldn't prevent smarter folk than I asking the question should it? Or maybe they already have and it's all too hard and I should just go back to the NZX thread and continue picking up ****ty over-priced stocks?

At the end of the day, it's all about incentives. And at the moment, the incentives don't align well with voter needs.

[Balance]

You do know about the Treaty of Waitangi?
It is an inconvenient truth to many.

The Treaty provided for separatism?

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125033494/nobody-came-out-well-from-debate-over-trevor-mallards-defamation-case-chris-hipkins-says

Cindy at her most hypocritical - stands by Mallard. Obvious the despicable woman needs his protection in Parliament. Disgusting woman.

[Sir Ten]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125033494/nobody-came-out-well-from-debate-over-trevor-mallards-defamation-case-chris-hipkins-says

Cindy at her most hypocritical - stands by Mallard. Obvious the despicable woman needs his protection in Parliament. Disgusting woman.

But she's getting married Balance... that's the real news.

[Getty]

You do know about the Treaty of Waitangi?
It is an inconvenient truth to many.

Complete sidestep of my point.

Labour IS playing the race card, JC is merely responding to it, as you would expect from a leader of the opposition.

[Balance]

But she's getting married Balance... that's the real news.

The attempt at deflection & distraction did not work this time.

[Sir Ten]

The attempt at deflection & distraction did not work this time.

"My firm view Balance, is that I totally reject that ppppproppppistion and we need to come together and resolve these issues"

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125033494/nobody-came-out-well-from-debate-over-trevor-mallards-defamation-case-chris-hipkins-says

Cindy at her most hypocritical - stands by Mallard. Obvious the despicable woman needs his protection in Parliament. Disgusting woman.

The real reason why the disgusting Cindy is standing by her man Mallard :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/together-at-last-sort-of-video/JEIM6DPAL7KGANH6OJNQJ5RYWE/

Only way the disgusting woman can get away with not answering the tough questions in Parliament - protection by her man.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/barry-soper-trevor-mallards-outburst-this-week-questions-whether-he-understands-what-a-serious-sexual-assault-is/IDN3FBY3UJT5HHDCETCSL6R3LY/

This is the arsehole Cindy is defending and determined to keep as Speaker to protect her backside.

A man who thinks that a hug from behind constitutes a serious sexual assault and which was dismissed by the police as not serious enough to prosecute.

So Mallard first called it rape and now, serious sexual assault - & Cindy is happy to grin and state that it’s all fine with her. Disgusting woman with no scruples & principles.

[tim23]

I've said it repeatedly, Andrew Little is a very dangerous man. A well meaning fool.

That makes 2 of you then I guess...

[tim23]

The Treaty provided for separatism?

I heard a speech today from Sir Kim Workman - it challenged some of my thinking re the treaty, you may be able to read some of his stuff online somewhere, worth a look.

[Balance]

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pms-failed-bid-to-rein-trevor-mallard-in

Cindy needs Mallard so she just have to put up with his BS & bullying - not to mention the hundreds of thousands of dollars in settlements (courtesy of the taxpayers) in the offing for his unfounded rape & serious sexual assault allegations.

Good to see that most media commentators are not sidetracked by her ‘I have set my wedding date’ attempt to deflect from her sordid hypocritical support of the despicable man she so desperately wants to remain as speaker to protect her from her BS.

[fungus pudding]

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pms-failed-bid-to-rein-trevor-mallard-in

Cindy needs Mallard so she just have to put up with his BS & bullying - not to mention the hundreds of thousands of dollars in settlements (courtesy of the taxpayers) in the offing for his unfounded rape & serious sexual assault allegations.

Good to see that most media commentators are not sidetracked by her ‘I have set my wedding date’ attempt to deflect from her sordid hypocritical support of the despicable man she so desperately wants to remain as speaker to protect her from her BS.

I take it from your comments that you won't be going to the wedding. If it's any comfort to you, neither will I. :(
(That will save me getting a new outfit, and worrying what to wear)

[Balance]

I take it from your comments that you won't be going to the wedding. If it's any comfort to you, neither will I. :(
(That will save me getting a new outfit, and worrying what to wear)

Haha - I will go & gatecrash if I get to see Trevor Mallard give her away!

[Bill Smith]

workman and labour are joined at the hip.

[Zaphod]

Three more years of squeezing some of the non-retired middle class? In effect this government is now freezing the pay of public servants earning more than $60,000. Having introduced policies that have resulted in the continued surge in house prices, this government seems determined to rule out the ability to save for home ownership for its own employees in many parts of the country. Inheriting money may the way for many to secure the deposit for a house, if they are lucky enough.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300292597/government-announces-three-more-years-of-pay-restraint-for-public-servants

This seems like an exceptionally short-sighted move that is likely to alienate their supports, the unions, and any up and coming talent within the public sector will depart for greener pastures where salaries are rising. What about those who have found themselves on salaries that are now exceptionally close to the every rising minimum wage, but who will not be afforded a increase in pay? To those in the public sector, the effect of this amounts to three years of pay decreases.

[Zaphod]

I take it from your comments that you won't be going to the wedding. If it's any comfort to you, neither will I. :(
(That will save me getting a new outfit, and worrying what to wear)

Don't we need another public holiday? Here's our chance......

[fungus pudding]

Don't we need another public holiday? Here's our chance......

I don't see why my abstaining from a wedding would warrant a public holiday. Although 'Fungus day' does have a nice ring to it; then again 'Pudding day' may have wider appeal. Do you think it should be an annual celebration, or just a one-off?

[jonu]

I don't see why my abstaining from a wedding would warrant a public holiday. Although 'Fungus day' does have a nice ring to it; then again 'Pudding day' may have wider appeal. Do you think it should be an annual celebration, or just a one-off?

Oooh yes, let's go with Pudding Day. Hard to beat a good sticky pudding in mid-winter. We could put it at the winter solstice.....oh wait, didn't Cindy already plonk one around then?

[westerly]

It is with some degree of trepidation that I await the unveiling of the revised hate speech laws by Andrew Little. I am sure it is with the best of intentions but the potential criminalisation of stupid opinions may be a concern. The problem is in our current environment you must be brave to voice a dissenting opinion. What are others opinions?

Andrew Little is Minister of Health, Why would he introduce revised hate speech laws?

westerly

[artemis]

Andrew Little is Minister of Health, Why would he introduce revised hate speech laws?
westerly

Mosque Attack Response Minister?

[Getty]

Lets have some more $610k pa per employee marae clean up jobs, as per TV3 news tonight.

Beats share investing for a living eh?

[Balance]

“8 days before the election, the Govt bribed voters with $100m and the promise of 3100 jobs to repair marae. Figures obtained by @actparty show that just 158 full-time jobs (5%) have been created. Extraordinary.”

Another massive fail like Kiwibuild with Cindy.

Disgusting woman.

[SBQ]

This seems like an exceptionally short-sighted move that is likely to alienate their supports, the unions, and any up and coming talent within the public sector will depart for greener pastures where salaries are rising. What about those who have found themselves on salaries that are now exceptionally close to the every rising minimum wage, but who will not be afforded a increase in pay? To those in the public sector, the effect of this amounts to three years of pay decreases.

I see Balance likes to refer Jacinda Ardern as "disgusting". Fair comment. But I don't think she's really been that bad for NZ. She did the gov't workers pay freeze last year during the COVID lockdowns, i'm sure her cabinet ministers are well use to what she's like and aren't surprised that their pay is frozen. Personally I don't support the view that gov't workers should be paid more than the private sector worker for the same position. What we need to embrace is more private sector investment as they are the support of tax revenue to pay for the gov't workers. What if 1 out of every 2 workers has a job in gov't/teacher/medical/etc. where their pay comes from the gov't - where would this lead to? Higher taxes? Print more $? Exodus of the private sector?

I remember a time as told by my elders in NZ that after the stock market crash in 85, the NZ gov't did a massive clean out and the whole country was able to manage with few cabinet ministers. How did they go from that to being overly top heavy?

I think a pay freeze on gov't workers on all levels is a pretty bold move and $60K/year pay is not exactly small pay for many parts of NZ. However if you want to adopt to Auckland lifestyle, then expect to be co-living with a partner or married so the mortgage can be paid.

I've queried in the past, who do we blame for out of control house prices and is it just purely bad gov't policy?

[jonu]

Immediately after freezing Public sector wages Cindy's lot trot out new rules for everyone else.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125059465/government-announces-fair-pay-agreements-plan-in-radical-overhaul-of-new-zealand-employment-laws

You couldn't make this stuff up! Have they no self awareness at all?

[Bjauck]

Immediately after freezing Public sector wages Cindy's lot trot out new rules for everyone else.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125059465/government-announces-fair-pay-agreements-plan-in-radical-overhaul-of-new-zealand-employment-laws

You couldn't make this stuff up! Have they no self awareness at all?
The pendulum of power is starting to swing again away from the owners of capital to workers? If nothing else, with the current tax policies, it may increase tax revenues as untaxed capital gains are replaced by taxed salaries and wages. Possibly also it may mean increased GST takings as the lower paid workers increase bargaining power to get more wage increases which will be used to buy goods and services.

[jonu]

The pendulum of power is starting to swing again away from the owners of capital to workers? If nothing else, with the current tax policies, it may increase tax revenues as untaxed capital gains are replaced by taxed salaries and wages. Possibly also it may mean increased GST takings as the lower paid workers increase bargaining power to get more wage increases which will be used to buy goods and services.

The pendulum swinging to workers as long as they don't work for Cindy's "be kind" government.

[SBQ]

The pendulum swinging to workers as long as they don't work for Cindy's "be kind" government.

Don't forget, this would apply to all levels - consider the profitability of your NZ share holdings if those companies are paying higher labour costs? This has been the issue over in America with Amazon. Pay the workers a little more than minimum wage while wiping out the small business mom & pop retailers.

Interesting times..

[FTG]

Sadly, if the law does proceed as currently proposed then it will be a clear step BACK towards the era of the 70's for NZ. A period of great acrimony and with the Unions often holding the country to ransom.

Let's call a spade a spade. The proposed FPA framework is compulsory unionism by stealth. But maybe it's not so stealth like though? It's pretty obvious actually....Labour looking after their mates (masters?) by screwing the scrum and giving them (the Unions) the power to have greater CONTROL over businesses and key decision making. All despite the unionised workforce in NZ being clearly in the minority.

Not only should NZers cherish & protect their freedom of association rights, but also their right to NOT be associated. Having a mechanism where only 10% of employees can pretty much force the other 90% to be dragged along and be associated is an assault on those and other basic freedoms.

As we know NZ is a country of SME's, the overwhelming majority of businesses in NZ have less than 19 employees. In effect this is like a business with 19 employees having just 2 people forcing the other 17 employees AND the business owners into a position that inevitably produces destructive outcomes for the Business AND the employees.
Another unintended consequence (or maybe it's not so unintended?) is that in any industry "negotiations", in reality the BIG boys will agree to set the parameters, and the smaller entrepreneurial folk, SME's etc will just have to tow the line and hang on for the ride.

Yes Bjauck, my opinion is that you are right on one thing. In the medium term the State will gain an enlarged tax-take. And yes, that includes GST, as prices will inflate further. As we also know, there is no free lunch and redistribution of wealth is not exempt to this principle, so the commercial & economic costs have to be recovered and paid for in some way.

The irony of all this, is eventually the typical employee actually ends up being WORSE off as inflation rises wider across & deeper in the economy, effectively diminishing the true power of those extra dollars and/or conditions they had force bargined for them. Oh that's right, I know, Robertson & his cronies would then put in place price freezes/caps...just like Muldoon huh!

[fungus pudding]

I dread the return of compulsory unionism such as we had in the 60s and 70s. Vicious unions holding the country to ransom with those unforgettable thugs, all with a common accent from a certain part of the planet. It was awful and NZ at the time was horrible. There are still some of those thugs hovering around the Labour party, longing to get back in their powerful positions of old. That is why I've never been able to trust the Labour party.

[Bjauck]

…

The irony of all this, is eventually the typical employee actually ends up being WORSE off as inflation rises wider across & deeper in the economy, effectively diminishing the true power of those extra dollars and/or conditions they had force bargined for them. Oh that's right, I know, Robertson & his cronies would then put in place price freezes/caps...just like Muldoon huh!

There has already been excessive inflation as a result of previous government policy settings - not of the CPI but of asset prices. Consequently many workers have been priced out of home ownership.

I am not sure why there is objection to compulsory unionism after there is already compulsory unionism for some occupations - those that call themselves “professions”. Indeed obligatory membership of a union may well lead to more moderate unions and more straightforward dealing for both employer and employee. in some occupations there may be a choice as to which union the employee could join.

[jonu]

There has already been excessive inflation as a result of previous government policy settings - not of the CPI but of asset prices. Consequently many workers have been priced out of home ownership.

I am not sure why there is objection to compulsory unionism after there is already compulsory unionism for some occupations - those that call themselves “professions”. Indeed obligatory membership of a union may well lead to more moderate unions and more straightforward dealing for both employer and employee.

History says otherwise.

BTW the "professions" have organisations for practising standards.

[Bjauck]

History says otherwise.

BTW the "professions" have organisations for practising standards. Sure and unions in those fields outside professions help set standards too.

It depends which and whose history you choose.

[FTG]

...

I am not sure why there is objection to compulsory unionism after there is already compulsory unionism for some occupations - those that call themselves “professions”. Indeed obligatory membership of a union may well lead to more moderate unions and more straightforward dealing for both employer and employee. in some occupations there may be a choice as to which union the employee could join.

Very simply Bjauck, respecting a basic human right.
FREEDOM.
Freedom to be, do, & have what you wish as long as you don't impinge on the "rights" of others. Specifically in this case, freedom of association, or as it may be freedom of NOT being associated.
So in this context, maintaining the freedom of the individual to negotiate (or not as it may be) what & how with their employer when they wish. NOT by what some State imposed artificial "authority" decides & therefore decrees.

[fungus pudding]

I am not sure why there is objection to compulsory unionism after there is already compulsory unionism for some occupations - those that call themselves “professions”. Indeed obligatory membership of a union may well lead to more moderate unions and more straightforward dealing for both employer and employee. in some occupations there may be a choice as to which union the employee could join.

If you are trying to compare union membership to membership of a professional body, then you don't know anything about at least one of them; possibly both. If you think compulsion may lead to moderate behaviour and attitudes, then you weren't working in NZ in the 60s and 70s. You must be younger than 60, or an arrival from offshore. People working in those yeers will still recall the TV news of 60s/70s NZ and the screaming thugs, gloating about the latest long term shut down of some industry. It still makes me sick thinking about it. Examples like the steel workers holding up Welington's BNZ building for 7 years over some bit of nonsense. There were heaps of similar stories. It was dreadful stuff. Most union leaders were recent immigrants, who seemed to take great pride describing the industry they had just disrupted. Never again - I hope.

[jonu]

Sure and unions in those fields outside professions help set standards too.

It depends which and whose history you choose.

No it doesn't. You clearly have little understanding of this country's history under compulsory unionism.

Most school holidays the Cooks and Stewards Union would shut down the Cook Strait Ferries.

The Boilermakers Union and the Riggers would hold up sundry large projects. The Freezing works lost dozens of days every year at peak times for union instigated strikes.....and then when it was quiet, management would instigate a strike to lay them off without pay.

The Watersiders held the country's ports to ransom at any whim. Jim Knox and Bill Anderson were two of the most powerful men in the country.

And Cindy looks to bring it all back....after slapping a wage freeze on the Public Sector. I knew Ardern was an arrogant , patronising, virtue signaling disaster, but I didn't pick her for being this stupid.

All aboard Comrades. But seriously, Comrades....we can do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rsxFaq6Ig

2009....not so long ago.

[Zaphod]

On the bright side (although not for the employees), this policy is likely to improve productivity rates as automation projects are fast tracked.

[fungus pudding]

No it doesn't. You clearly have little understanding of this country's history under compulsory unionism.

Most school holidays the Cooks and Stewards Union would shut down the Cook Strait Ferries.

The Boilermakers Union and the Riggers would hold up sundry large projects. The Freezing works lost dozens of days every year at peak times for union instigated strikes.....and then when it was quiet, management would instigate a strike to lay them off without pay.

The Watersiders held the country's ports to ransom at any whim. Jim Knox and Bill Anderson were two of the most powerful men in the country.

And Cindy looks to bring it all back....after slapping a wage freeze on the Public Sector. I knew Ardern was an arrogant , patronising, virtue signaling disaster, but I didn't pick her for being this stupid.

All aboard Comrades. But seriously, Comrades....we can do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rsxFaq6Ig

2009....not so long ago.

I have very clear memories of all that - my early working years. It was unbelievably bad. Frightening times on the horizon.

[Bjauck]

If you are trying to compare union membership to membership of a professional body, then you don't know anything about at least one of them; possibly both. If you think compulsion may lead to moderate behaviour and attitudes, then you weren't working in NZ in the 60s and 70s. You must be younger than 60, or an arrival from offshore. People working in those yeers will still recall the TV news of 60s/70s NZ and the screaming thugs, gloating about the latest long term shut down of some industry. It still makes me sick thinking about it. Examples like the steel workers holding up Welington's BNZ building for 7 years over some bit of nonsense. There were heaps of similar stories. It was dreadful stuff. Most union leaders were recent immigrants, who seemed to take great pride describing the industry they had just disrupted. Never again - I hope.
I am sure that the NZBC, the state broadcaster, in those days was full of impartial news editors;)

What were the pay and conditions like that the unions were fighting against? Weren't the union leaders trailblazing heroes in the struggle for worker's rights in the face of poor conditions and the monolith of the Right Wing Farmer's Party (aka The National Party?)

Who elected the recent "immigrants" as leaders? Presumably Kiwi born workers? I understand that there was anti-British sentiment as a result of the UK joining the EEC. My Irish born family members recall being abused frequently for having a "British" accent. Family friends remember dawn raids to find overstayers. Bigotry was more acceptable then?

[westerly]

If you are trying to compare union membership to membership of a professional body, then you don't know anything about at least one of them; possibly both. If you think compulsion may lead to moderate behaviour and attitudes, then you weren't working in NZ in the 60s and 70s. You must be younger than 60, or an arrival from offshore. People working in those yeers will still recall the TV news of 60s/70s NZ and the screaming thugs, gloating about the latest long term shut down of some industry. It still makes me sick thinking about it. Examples like the steel workers holding up Welington's BNZ building for 7 years over some bit of nonsense. There were heaps of similar stories. It was dreadful stuff. Most union leaders were recent immigrants, who seemed to take great pride describing the industry they had just disrupted. Never again - I hope.

What a load of rubbish .NZ was a far happier country in those days . Housing was relatively cheap, there were no homeless on the streets, children were better looked after and then came Prebble, Richardson and there ilk.
Money became the new god, resulting in the unhappy society that is present day NZ.

westerly

[Balance]

What a load of rubbish .NZ was a far happier country in those days . Housing was relatively cheap, there were no homeless on the streets, children were better looked after and then came Prebble, Richardson and there ilk.
Money became the new god, resulting in the unhappy society that is present day NZ.

westerly

You forgot to write :

About Fortress NZ where everything (especially cars, electronics and clothings) was at least twice as expensive as other countries (especially Australia) and quality was crap.

About the double digit inflation & mortgage rates which priced property out of the reach of the average NZers.

About the ghettos which sprung up all over NZ, but especially Auckland, to house the homeless and needy.

About the overstaffing in almost all government & local government departments & enterprises.

And about the marginalization of Maoris & Pacific Islanders.

And you forgot to mention how shops were closed for the weekends with one late night.

Then there was the lousy food, wine and could not care less hospitality service.

Above all, you forgot to mention NZ was going broke at a very rapid rate.

Then there's the institutionalised sexual, physical & mental abuse of children in state & faith-based care during the 50s to 80s.

Shall we continue with the 'happy place' which was NZ back in those days?

[macduffy]

What a load of rubbish .NZ was a far happier country in those days . Housing was relatively cheap, there were no homeless on the streets, children were better looked after and then came Prebble, Richardson and there ilk.
Money became the new god, resulting in the unhappy society that is present day NZ.

westerly

I seem to remember that before "Prebble, Richardson and there (sic) ilk" - came Douglas!

[Bjauck]

I seem to remember that before "Prebble, Richardson and there (sic) ilk" - came Douglas! British "immigrant union stirrer" Pat Kelly could no longer advise his union members to vote Labour because of Douglas! Labourite David Lange described Kelly as "Gaddafi without the ethnic charm"!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/iobituaryi-pat-kelly/REOR5FVYVBYGOACXMLOOBMANR4/

I think much of the move to independent contractors to avoid employment law stemmed from about the time of Douglas.

[artemis]

What a load of rubbish .NZ was a far happier country in those days . Housing was relatively cheap, there were no homeless on the streets, children were better looked after and then came Prebble, Richardson and there ilk.
Money became the new god, resulting in the unhappy society that is present day NZ.

westerly

A lot happened behind closed doors back in the day.

[fungus pudding]

You forgot to write :

About Fortress NZ where everything (especially cars, electronics and clothings) was at least twice as expensive as other countries (especially Australia) and quality was crap.

About the double digit inflation & mortgage rates which priced property out of the reach of the average NZers.

About the ghettos which sprung up all over NZ, but especially Auckland, to house the homeless and needy.

About the overstaffing in almost all government & local government departments & enterprises.

And about the marginalization of Maoris & Pacific Islanders.

And you forgot to mention how shops were closed for the weekends with one late night.

Then there was the lousy food, wine and could not care less hospitality service.

Above all, you forgot to mention NZ was going broke at a very rapid rate.

Then there's the institutionalised sexual, physical & mental abuse of children in state & faith-based care during the 50s to 80s.

Shall we continue with the 'happy place' which was NZ back in those days?

NZ was a dreadful place back then. And it was even difficult to escape for an overseas break with a daily allowance of money we were allowed to take, which barely covered accomodations In a country as exotic as Australia. Never forget having to collect postal orders at one five shilling note per day until you had enough for some restricted import, like a subscription to an overseas magazine. Some will remember having to have overseas funds to buy a new car. Otherwise you had to trade one in to satisfy the dealer, who offered next to nothing for the trade In. If you didn't have a trade in, they would sell you a second hand car, send you off for a drive around the block, and trade it in when you returned. That got around the price controls and regulations. Younger readers will think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. N Z had one if the most restricted and controlled economic es in the world. It was a horrible little country.

[Bjauck]

…It was a horrible little country. I guess you have to look at the international context of the times. Presumably NZ was more appealing than still war-ravaged and dreary post-war Britain and poor and conservative Ireland - or sufficiently appealing to pay £10 for the trip to the other side of the World and then to decide to stay.

[Baa_Baa]

I guess you have to look at the international context of the times. Presumably NZ was more appealing than still war-ravaged and dreary post-war Britain and poor and conservative Ireland - or sufficiently appealing to pay £10 for the trip to the other side of the World and then to decide to stay.

Despite how poor they were, they saved the 10 Sovereigns (a fortune for many) and some more, for money when they got here, then they set about making a life for themselves and their families. Did they whine about it, or is that the preogative of the next lot or the lot after that?

[fungus pudding]

Despite how poor they were, they saved the 10 Sovereigns (a fortune for many) and some more, for money when they got here, then they set about making a life for themselves and their families. Did they whine about it, or is that the preogative of the next lot or the lot after that?
They sure as hell moaned. They were well known as the whinging poms.

[Bjauck]

Despite how poor they were, they saved the 10 Sovereigns (a fortune for many) and some more, for money when they got here, then they set about making a life for themselves and their families. Did they whine about it, or is that the prerogative of the next lot or the lot after that? Maybe they whinged before they left? Perhaps also they sought a brighter future for their descendants - free to strive for improvement and to express themselves without thought control - Not just to be bricks in the wall.

[Bjauck]

They sure as hell moaned. They were well known as the whinging poms. All of them? Well known by whom? Were there some hyper-sensitive set-in-their-ways people who did not like criticism? Perhaps those with vested interests did not want fresh blood to influence others and upset their Apple carts?

[fungus pudding]

All of them? Well known by whom? Were there some hyper-sensitive set-in-their-ways people who did not like criticism? Perhaps those with vested interests did not want fresh blood to influence others and upset their Apple carts?

You obviously don't recall those days, and the armies of 'moaning poms' as they were known, who found their way, mainly into the public service, and certain industries, like the Roslyn Woolen Mills on Dunedin. Seafearers union, boilermakers, steel workers union and so on. They infiltrated the unions and disrupted every industry they could. As a school leaver I worked in a trade where the floor would get messy. No bother to anyone with a brain - just a quick sweep and all was well. Problem was, the minute a union delegate spotted you they would call a stop work meeting, because some whippersnapper was doing a cleaner out of a job. Demarcation they called it. We were supposed to stop doing whatever until we coud find the cleaner, or he founfd us. It was pathetic. Do you not remember Tom Skinner, Pat Kelly, Ken Doughlas, Bill Richards, Jim Knox and the others - frequently on the news causing mayhem. Yes - they were well known and the harm they did to NZs economy, and reputation was immense. I don't know your age, but you obviously weren't working in that period - when no matter what, you were forced to join their horrible unions, and pay fees. If you could be bothered with the rigmarole you could be a conscientous objector - I was - although I still had to donate the equivalent of the union fees to an approved charity. They were thugs and bullies and it took a brave stance to be an objector.
You should read a bit of history of Trade Unionism in NZ, some of it even interesting like the Trades Hall bombing in 1984, which killed caretaker Ernie Abbot. A horrible period, promoted by scum - to nobodys' benefit.

[Bjauck]

Tom Skinner - born in Mangaweka
Ken Douglas - born in Wellington
Bill Richards born ?
Jim Knox - born in Auckland
Don’t forget Sonja Davies - born in Upper Hutt
However Liverpudlian born Pat Kelly is one of your armies of moaning Brits. Present when the Trades Hall was bombed. His daughter blames the bombing on anti-union hysteria whipped up by “Dancing Cossacks” Robert Muldoon.

I salute them all for their fortitude in standing up against the establishment in support of workers’ rights. I perhaps would not have agreed with all their arguments. However it did not sound easy job to support workers and employees in the Muldoon era and with the bigotry in society.

[jonu]

My first personal experience of unionism was working for a bank in the mid 80s. Our Union had 2 full time employees as I recall. None other than Max Bradford was boss of the Banking Association (which acted on behalf of banks to work with/against the Union).

Now in my opinion Max Bradford's later electricity reforms were disastrous for NZ. I think he is a prize twat. But he sure as hell stitched up the Bank Union. He waited until both the employees went on a jolly to Geneva (guess who was paying for it) and then announced a change of bank opening hours and work conditions for staff.

[Balance]

I salute them all for their fortitude in standing up against the establishment in support of workers’ rights. I perhaps would not have agreed with all their arguments. However it did not sound easy job to support workers and employees in the Muldoon era and with the bigotry in society.

You need to understand the Muldoon era a lot better than you think you do.

Muldoon was a buffoon who did not have a clue how to manage the NZ economy and he made some of the most far reaching disastrous decisions NZ had to live with for decades after :

Scrapping compulsory super
Introducing SMPs & increasing them relentlessly even as markets dried up
Allowing inflation to rage out of control
Think Big projects
Borrowing recklessly
Wage & price freeze
Allowing tax avoidance schemes
…. the list goes on and on and on.

What’s the relevance of the above?

Well, as he lost economic and social credibility, Muldoon turned to divisive tactics to stay in power, come what may.

So the Trade Union movement & their disruptive tactics were most useful for Muldoon - which is why he did not remove compulsory unionism even as he threatened time and again to do so. Suited him to allow them to create mayhem out in the workplace and in industries. They achieved nothing - try to list 3 achievements from that era which were beneficial to workers and NZers if you can.

So forget about your laudable salute to them - I would go so far as to say I would spit on them for their betrayal of all NZers. They were not fit to walk among real workers.

[Bjauck]

You need to understand the Muldoon era a lot better than you think you do.

...
So forget about your laudable salute to them - I would go so far as to say I would spit on them for their betrayal of all NZers. They were not fit to walk among real workers.

Fair enough that is your opinion. From Muldoon's treatment of his fellow MPs, even in his own Party, to his deliberate divisiveness and vilification of certain groups and people to me he seems like a NZ Trump.

[Balance]

Fair enough that is your opinion. From Muldoon's treatment of his fellow MPs, even in his own Party, to his deliberate divisiveness and vilification of certain groups and people to me he seems like a NZ Trump.

My opinion indeed - based upon real life experience.

You have to work in a trade unionized workplace back in those dark days to really appreciate how bad things were.

The trade union bosses used to get the workers to go on strike for the flimsiest of reasons even though the majority did not want to by loading the committees with their goons.

We had one instance in the industrial factory (where I worked for a while) when they incited several 'simple minded' recent migrants from the Pacific Islands during a strike to break in and they destroyed machinery & finished products, causing huge damage and delaying the opening of the factory by weeks. And they incited the workers further of course to go on strike for strike pay! Then, there was the 'no strike bonus pay'!

All to show they had power - bugger all to do with enhancing workers' rights and conditions. They were the union leaders you are saluting.

[fungus pudding]

Talk of the restrictive rules controlling NZ in those days reminds me of only being allowed to buy margarine with a doctor's prescription, and only from a chemist. Lists of products dairies could sell, e.g. pies but not tomato sauce. Hand soap but not washing powder. Dairies usually divided products into open areas and areas that could be locked off. Grocery stores other than those classed as dairies had to close at 5 p.m. and weekends were not allowed to open. Neither could most retail shops apart from Brighton in Christchurch and one suburb in Wellington. This was all policed by Labour Dept. inspectors. Pubs were only allowed to open till 6 p.m. That is why I say it was an awful little country. It was always fascinating to talk to someone who had been bold enough to go to Australia or for the really bold - even further (preumably with a friend to provide accomodation because funds to take overseas did not really provide sufficient for hotel accomodation and leave any spending money) anyway such travellers would have us wide eyed with stories of the shopping at weekends - pubs open in the evening, clubs with restaurants and bars, and many other activitities forbidden in NZ and a few communist coutries.

[Balance]

Why NZers went across to Oz back in those dark days to get a taste of life as it should be. Now over 500,000 NZers live there.

[SBQ]

Why NZers went across to Oz back in those dark days to get a taste of life as it should be. Now over 500,000 NZers live there.

I agree, the high % of NZ expats living abroad is a concern. Some sources say as much as 20% (mostly living in Australia) with no intention of moving back. Many have asked me about my father why he's not staying in NZ (over the Covid situation as he is a non-NZ resident living in Canada). I simply said the risk for him staying in NZ for more than 6 months in a year is the greater risk than the Covid. Once you become a NZ tax residence, IRD requires you to disclose ALL of your foreign assets (excess $100K) despite you have no reason to wanting to reside in NZ. In general public, I don't believe people understand how much taxation is an issue for those that have wealth.

[Bjauck]

Talk of the restrictive rules controlling NZ in those days reminds me of only being allowed to buy margarine with a doctor's prescription, and only from a chemist. Lists of products dairies could sell, e.g. pies but not tomato sauce. Hand soap but not washing powder. Dairies usually divided products into open areas and areas that could be locked off. Grocery stores other than those classed as dairies had to close at 5 p.m. and weekends were not allowed to open. Neither could most retail shops apart from Brighton in Christchurch and one suburb in Wellington. This was all policed by Labour Dept. inspectors. Pubs were only allowed to open till 6 p.m. That is why I say it was an awful little country. It was always fascinating to talk to someone who had been bold enough to go to Australia or for the really bold - even further (preumably with a friend to provide accomodation because funds to take overseas did not really provide sufficient for hotel accomodation and leave any spending money) anyway such travellers would have us wide eyed with stories of the shopping at weekends - pubs open in the evening, clubs with restaurants and bars, and many other activitities forbidden in NZ and a few communist coutries.
True, the domination of primary produce farmers and their organisations was strong.

I don’t see how your complaints made NZ an awful country - perhaps less so than currently having most trading banking owned by foreign companies and so many successful companies having to locate overseas to access capital - whilst in the meantime NZ’s residential housing is worth so much many multiples more than the stock market capitalisation. Now that is bat-crazy!

The UK’s post-war exchange controls were only lifted in 1979. Their pubs had restrictive opening times too until relatively recently including closing in the afternoons! UK shops would often close in the afternoons and for lunch. Sunday trading legislation was introduced there only in 1994. So context of the times is key.

[fungus pudding]

I agree, the high % of NZ expats living abroad is a concern. Some sources say as much as 20% (mostly living in Australia) with no intention of moving back. Many have asked me about my father why he's not staying in NZ (over the Covid situation as he is a non-NZ resident living in Canada). I simply said the risk for him staying in NZ for more than 6 months in a year is the greater risk than the Covid. Once you become a NZ tax residence, IRD requires you to disclose ALL of your foreign assets (excess $100K) despite you have no reason to wanting to reside in NZ. In general public, I don't believe people understand how much taxation is an issue for those that have wealth.

I'm certainly no tax expert, but I think many countries require you to declare your world wide assets and income for tax purposes. But tax paid to one govt. usually attracts a credit from your country of residence.
It's a tricky area which sometimes requires a tax specialist and not just a book-keeper. Are you sure the reason he stays in Canada rather then NZ is not because he prefers living in Canada? They're generally not a bad mob over there.:)

[Bjauck]

Why NZers went across to Oz back in those dark days to get a taste of life as it should be. Now over 500,000 NZers live there.
So higher wages and salaries was not the main driver behind Kiwis migrating to Australia?

[fungus pudding]

So higher wages and salaries was not the main driver behind Kiwis migrating to Australia?

I have many friends who now live in Australia. Without exception they moved for the weather. Some relatives even shifted to Surfer's Paradise after a brief holiday there. Poor fools.

[Bjauck]

I have many friends who now live in Australia. Without exception they moved for the weather. Some relatives even shifted to Surfer's Paradise after a brief holiday there. Poor fools.
Did they manage to find similar or better jobs before moving there? Each to their own. I am not a beach bunny and prefer more temperate climates. I would find Surfer’s climate too hot for too long in the year and I prefer Auckland’s Winters to Melbourne’s. Old inner city Sydney would be a goer apart from the hottest months but I could only afford a postage stamp to live on!

[westerly]

You forgot to write :

1 About Fortress NZ where everything (especially cars, electronics and clothings) was at least twice as expensive as other countries (especially Australia) and quality was crap.

2 About the double digit inflation & mortgage rates which priced property out of the reach of the average NZers.

3 About the ghettos which sprung up all over NZ, but especially Auckland, to house the homeless and needy.

4 About the overstaffing in almost all government & local government departments & enterprises.

5 And about the marginalization of Maoris & Pacific Islanders.

6 And you forgot to mention how shops were closed for the weekends with one late night.

7 Then there was the lousy food, wine and could not care less hospitality service.

8 Above all, you forgot to mention NZ was going broke at a very rapid rate.

9 Then there's the institutionalised sexual, physical & mental abuse of children in state & faith-based care during the 50s to 80s.

10 Shall we continue with the 'happy place' which was NZ back in those days?

1 You forget that W.W. 2 had a big economic effect on NZ and overseas funds were in short supply.

2 This was a direct result of the 1973 oil shock when a barrell went from $3 to $20 US over night followed by Britain joining the EEC and the countries loss of export markets, compounded by Nationals Muldoon and his policies

3 You do not like State housing?

4 &5 What has changed?

6 The weekend was available for sport and recreation

7 In your opinion.

8 Direct result of Nationals Muldoon and his policies

9 Still as many perverts around but maybe with less opportunity?

10 NZ was a far more egalitarian society in the late 40’s thru to Douglas in the 80s

westerly

[stoploss]

1 You forget that W.W. 2 had a big economic effect on NZ and overseas funds were in short supply.

2 This was a direct result of the 1973 oil shock when a barrell went from $3 to $20 US over night followed by Britain joining the EEC and the countries loss of export markets, compounded by Nationals Muldoon and his policies

3 You do not like State housing?

4 &5 What has changed?

6 The weekend was available for sport and recreation

7 In your opinion.

8 Direct result of Nationals Muldoon and his policies

9 Still as many perverts around but maybe with less opportunity?

10 NZ was a far more egalitarian society in the late 40’s thru to Douglas in the 80s

westerly
Westerly , the EEC story is often overcooked .....
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/124542759/british-high-commissioner-wants-to-put-new-zealands-great-abandonment-story-to-rest

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/124654002/did-britain-abandon-new-zealand-in-1973

[Bjauck]

Good summation westerly although I think the numbering may be a bit off. I though I was reading the old Two Ronnies Mastermind sketch....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0C59pI_ypQ

Re: Balance’s No 6 - I remember going with the parents for a meal and the theatre or cinema about once a month in the early 80’s. Fantastic service and meal at an Italian restaurant. They used to give me second helpings! However that was Central Auckland.

[fungus pudding]

Good summation westerly although I think the numbering may be a bit off. I though I was reading the old Two Ronnies Mastermind sketch....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0C59pI_ypQ

Re: Balance’s No 6 - I remember going with the parents for a meal and the theatre or cinema about once a month in the early 80’s. Fantastic service and meal at an Italian restaurant. They used to give me second helpings! However that was Central Auckland.

That certainly would be memorable, finding that In the eighties, and absolutely impossible in the sixties

[Bjauck]

That certainly would be memorable, finding that In the eighties, and absolutely impossible in the sixties
Plenty of good restaurants in the 1980’s - many of them businesses owned by immigrants.

[Balance]

Plenty of good restaurants in the 1980’s - many of them businesses owned by immigrants.

Name 3 from that era.

[stoploss]

Name 3 from that era.
Orsinis
Le Normandie
Green Parrot
Bengal Tiger
Mexican Cantina
The Coachman
Bacchus
Emmanuels
IL Casino

[SBQ]

I'm certainly no tax expert, but I think many countries require you to declare your world wide assets and income for tax purposes. But tax paid to one govt. usually attracts a credit from your country of residence.
It's a tricky area which sometimes requires a tax specialist and not just a book-keeper. Are you sure the reason he stays in Canada rather then NZ is not because he prefers living in Canada? They're generally not a bad mob over there.:)

ONLY if you're a 'tax resident' of that country, that you have to declare your worldwide income & assets. The easily way to become a tax resident in a country (either Canada or NZ) is to simply stay for more than 6 months in a total 1 year time frame. So despite my father being a NZ citizen (as how my dad's sister's husband queried me), I explained the issue is for tax reasons for his swift departure back to NZ. (as he normally visits NZ every year but went back prior the March border lock downs of 2020).

Several years ago we had full plans for my father's return back to NZ to continue his retirement (to be closer to his family and siblings). I had an empty lot and building plans to cater for his stay. All that changed when NZ brought in FIF and more recently, the CRS, extremely inconvenient AML rules, even issues like depositing cash payment to someone's bank account at a branch is no longer allowed (have to deposit cash in your account 1st, then do your online bank transfer via direct credit). It seemed all too much of a loss in financial freedom by living in NZ.

I have a close friend that is with a Kiwi girl in Vancouver. I asked if she would ever move back to NZ and it was very clear she wouldn't. The reasons were not like how others mentioned 'for better weather' as Canada is rather extreme. The reasons were all more to do with financial matters after they consult with their accountant. Likewise with the many expat Kiwis my dad became friends with in Canada (they all moved to Canada as school teachers in the 70s). All of them have built up decent size pension portfolios and when they ask their financial advisors, they soon learn they would be taking a significant tax hit by moving to NZ. 1) deemed disposition would apply when you go non-resident in Canada. 2) though upon arrival in NZ you apply for the 4 year tax exempt status, issues like FIF kicks in. 3) not every migrant enjoys liquidating their pension funds and convert them into a NZ based pension fund.

[Bjauck]

Name 3 from that era. I am not sure when FP's era when NZ was "awful" ended - if at all. I depended on my parents for any visit to a good restaurant meal in the 80's! Da Gino was a great restaurant in the K road area. Several whose names I cannot recall in the Parnell area. Parents and their "moaning Brit immigrant" friends used to get The Metro and go to restaurants reviewed in the magazine. "Moaning Brit immigrant" friends used to be full of praise - however they were from the "Black Country Midlands" of England!

[fungus pudding]

I am not sure when FP's era when NZ was "awful" ended - if at all. I depended on my parents for any visit to a good restaurant meal in the 80's! Da Gino was a great restaurant in the K road area. Several whose names I cannot recall in the Parnell area. Parents and their "moaning Brit immigrant" friends used to get The Metro and go to restaurants reviewed in the magazine. "Moaning Brit immigrant" friends used to be full of praise - however they were from the "Black Country Midlands" of England!

The awful period ended when Muldoon lost the election - so 1984. That's when Labour dragged NZ into the twentieth century. Credit for that belongs to Douglas who achieved so much, in spite of his mediocre
leader, Big Norm.

[jonu]

The awful period ended when Muldoon lost the election - so 1984. That's when Labour dragged NZ into the twentieth century. Credit for that belongs to Douglas who achieved so much, in spite of his mediocre
leader, Big Norm.

You mean Big Dave!

[fungus pudding]

You mean Big Dave!
Yes, of course. Apologies - brain malfunction.

[Bjauck]

The awful period ended when Muldoon lost the election - so 1984. That's when Labour dragged NZ into the twentieth century. Credit for that belongs to Douglas who achieved so much, in spite of his mediocre
leader, Big Norm. For many people Labour's Douglas dragged NZ back to the Victorian era of the C19th. There was lots of fine dining then, for some, and some of it was butler serviced!

So yep for those in (for example) cramped South Auckland struggling to pay their landlord's rent, it is great having exchange control free travel and a plethora of fancy restaurants in which they can toil to serve the wealthy.

[Balance]

For many people Labour's Douglas dragged NZ back to the Victorian era of the C19th. There was lots of fine dining then, for some, and some of it was butler serviced!

Yup - many people like you.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/jacinda-ardern-reveals-location-of-wedding-to-clarke-gayford/OB2MEQZ27PWM7WPN6SHLP7ITVA/

Cindy doing her striptease to milk everything she can from her wedding.

Disgusting woman.

[Bjauck]

Yup - many people like you. I will look for my tar and feathers ;)

[dobby41]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/jacinda-ardern-reveals-location-of-wedding-to-clarke-gayford/OB2MEQZ27PWM7WPN6SHLP7ITVA/

Cindy doing her striptease to milk everything she can from her wedding.

Disgusting woman.

???
She was asked on the AM Show and she answered.
She was asked on Coast Radio and she answered.
So she shouldn't have answered the question? That would be seen as milking it.
I doubt she would win any which way on this with you.