Labour govt 2020-23

[Balance]

???
She was asked on the AM Show and she answered.
She was asked on Coast Radio and she answered.
So she shouldn't have answered the question? That would be seen as milking it.
I doubt she would win any which way on this with you.

You really really have no idea how Cindy plays the striptease & PR game, do you?

The interviewers get a phone call from her PR spin team telling them of ‘certain’ questions they are welcomed to ask.

[dobby41]

You really really have no idea how Cindy plays the striptease & PR game, do you?

The interviewers get a phone call from her PR spin team telling them of ‘certain’ questions they are welcomed to ask.

You just really have no idea.

[Bill Smith]

You just really have no idea.

That's right. It's a coincidence that she is asked a question about the date and she announces that on a future date where she will announce a date. Then a week later she announces the city, but no date and no venue. Anyone with a mental age of more than 16 would see right through this PR exercise. You watch, anytime she is in the sh*t, she will announce another part of the puzzle.

[Bjauck]

That's right. It's a coincidence that she is asked a question about the date and she announces that on a future date where she will announce a date. Then a week later she announces the city, but no date and no venue. Anyone with a mental age of more than 16 would see right through this PR exercise. You watch, anytime she is in the sh*t, she will announce another part of the puzzle.
True. They all have a PR distraction for use as a smokescreen.

[Marilyn Munroe]

The recently announced pay freeze for civil servants by the Labour Government would have been described by the fictional Sir Humphrey Appleby as a courageous decision(1).

I was employed(2) by a company which implemented a pay freeze for supervisory administrative and technical staff.

The effect was immediate. A significant portion of those staff quit and went to work for competitors. Mostly they were the more effective staff leaving the employer with a higher ratio of dead wood to take up the slack.

They never did it again.

My advice to civil servants whose pay is frozen is to whistle Waltzing Matilda when walking down the office corridor outside the HR department.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

(1) Courageous decision, is an idiom used by a civil servant to politely tell a cabinet minister what is proposed is politically dangerous.

(2) Marilyn occupied a position in the company at the "hey you" level and was paid accordingly. Being mean to my pay packet would not have had a meaningful fiscal benefit.

[dobby41]

That's right. It's a coincidence that she is asked a question about the date and she announces that on a future date where she will announce a date. Then a week later she announces the city, but no date and no venue. Anyone with a mental age of more than 16 would see right through this PR exercise. You watch, anytime she is in the sh*t, she will announce another part of the puzzle.

Previously some here said she was going to announce the wedding before the election and various other predictions - all wrong.
People see what they want to see - me, I don't think it matters one iota!

[fungus pudding]

Previously some here said she was going to announce the wedding before the election and various other predictions - all wrong.
People see what they want to see - me, I don't think it matters one iota!

Don't overlook the interest in weddings by the brain dead among the hoi polloi. I have even seen a DVD for sale called something like The weddings from Coronation st, which is simply what has been shown in the program for those who want to watch those scenes again. That's dinkum.

[Balance]

Previously some here said she was going to announce the wedding before the election and various other predictions - all wrong.
People see what they want to see - me, I don't think it matters one iota!

Of course not - you do not see a problem with her failure to deliver on all the huge promises she made to get elected.

[dobby41]

Of course not - you do not see a problem with her failure to deliver on all the huge promises she made to get elected.

I do see a problem with that - I am just not as singular focused and rabid (dare I say unBalanced) over it as you are.
You often put words into my mouth which are wrong. Being able to think past a singular bias doesn't sit well with you.

[Bjauck]

Don't overlook the interest in weddings by the brain dead among the hoi polloi. I have even seen a DVD for sale called something like The weddings from Coronation st, which is simply what has been shown in the program for those who want to watch those scenes again. That's dinkum. Send in the ambo, I love a good troth pledging! I have also seen a few weddings on Coronation Street. They usually end horribly for the “happy” couple. So Jacinda-phobes would be in for a treat if it turns out to be a Coronation Street styled affair.

[fungus pudding]

Send in the ambo, I love a good troth pledging! I have also seen a few weddings on Coronation Street. They usually end horribly for the “happy” couple. So Jacinda-phobes would be in for a treat if it turns out to be a Coronation Street styled affair.

Nothing less interesting than a wedding where you don't personally know the characters, except for a pretend one with a couple of actors in a mock-up. Weddings are bad enough when you do know them and it's for real.

[Bjauck]

Nothing less interesting than a wedding where you don't personally know the characters, except for a pretend one with a couple of actors in a mock-up. Weddings are bad enough when you do know them and it's for real. Most of the ones I have been to have been great parties. Although there was one where the padre delivered a very long sermon and then a boring speech at the breakfast.

[fungus pudding]

Most of the ones I have been to have been great parties. Although there was one where the padre delivered a very long sermon and then a boring speech at the breakfast.

Surely you feel some degree of sympathy for the victims!

[peetter]

The recently announced pay freeze for civil servants by the Labour Government would have been described by the fictional Sir Humphrey Appleby as a courageous decision(1).

I was employed(2) by a company which implemented a pay freeze for supervisory administrative and technical staff.

The effect was immediate. A significant portion of those staff quit and went to work for competitors. Mostly they were the more effective staff leaving the employer with a higher ratio of dead wood to take up the slack.

They never did it again.

My advice to civil servants whose pay is frozen is to whistle Waltzing Matilda when walking down the office corridor outside the HR department.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

(1) Courageous decision, is an idiom used by a civil servant to politely tell a cabinet minister what is proposed is politically dangerous.

(2) Marilyn occupied a position in the company at the "hey you" level and was paid accordingly. Being mean to my pay packet would not have had a meaningful fiscal benefit.

I work with emergency services. I can tell you they feel very appreciated for all they did during covid lockdowns. Nothing like a paycut to say thank you for your service.

[Balance]

Chris Trotter disgusted with Cynical Cindy & her team of incompetents :

https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/110320/chris-trotter-argues-labour-has-thrown-out-old-political-rule-book-and-new-game-they

What our politicians now appear to be playing is a game called “Holding On To Power At All Costs”.

[Bjauck]

I work with emergency services. I can tell you they feel very appreciated for all they did during covid lockdowns. Nothing like a paycut to say thank you for your service.
It does beggar belief. Maybe they are comforted by the average houses going up in value in the year probably by more than many of their annual salaries?

[peetter]

It does beggar belief. Maybe they are comforted by the average houses going up in value in the year probably by more than many of their annual salaries?

In my opinion Labour wants more people dependable on money redistribution as most are guaranteed Labour voters. They don't really care about people's wellbeing. If they did, they'd address real low poor people problems. Like tax bracket creep. No GST on healthy food. Kainga ora first home grants that have limits under which you can actually find houses.

Meanwhile all of their policies are on getting more tax out of people. More tax on fuel doesn't hurt rich people, it hurts poor the most. Minimum wage raises causing services to become more expensive doesn't hurt rich, it hurts poor most. Taxing interest for property investors doesn't hurt investors, they'll just pass it to renters... Labour was even nice enough to spread it for them accros 4 years so they can increase rent progressively.

I don't understand how anyone can't see this. And how anyone is okay with any governments increasing taxes and coming with new sneaky taxes while they run the most inefficient organization. With all the taxes people are now paying more than 50% of income to the government and it gets worse every year...

[Panda-NZ-]

In my opinion Labour wants more people dependable on money redistribution as most are guaranteed Labour voters. They don't really care about people's wellbeing. If they did, they'd address real low poor people problems. Like tax bracket creep. No GST on healthy food. Kainga ora first home grants that have limits under which you can actually find houses.


Many superannuants vote for national. NZ voters don't want changes to the tax system.

[fungus pudding]

Many superannuants vote for national. NZ voters don't want changes to the tax system.

Another ridiculous generalisation. Plenty of NZers would love to see a more progressive tax, and plenty would love to see a flat or flatter tax. I very much doubt there are a large number who are perfectly satisfied; there never will be as long as taxes exist.

[Panda-NZ-]

The 10% swing voters who change parties probably don't though.

[artemis]

.... Taxing interest for property investors doesn't hurt investors, they'll just pass it to renters... Labour was even nice enough to spread it for them accros 4 years so they can increase rent progressively...

Not all landlords will be able to recover new expenses from rent increases. Especially for recent purchases where the new interest deduction rule has not been taken into account in the sums. And of course there are many other new costs, compliances and risks imposed over the past 3+ years.

And not all landlords are paying interest. They will do well out of the new rules if they keep adjusting rents to around market rent. That would be market rent that is already increasing and not looking like stopping any time soon except perhaps in specific oversupply locations like Auckland apartments. Meantime they are quietly upgrading their rentals, as required, and the tenants are paying.

Moe then half of private rentals are managed by professional property managers. They will have a very good handle on market rents, supply and demand and are working for their client not the tenants.

[peetter]

We are still waiting on the definition of "New build" according to Labour. Because obviously their announcement came without actually having an idea what the implementation will be. However you are correct. But my post was to highlight the Labour policies are always hardests on poor people and this one is not an exception.

[artemis]

We are still waiting on the definition of "New build" according to Labour. Because obviously their announcement came without actually having an idea what the implementation will be. However you are correct. But my post was to highlight the Labour policies are always hardests on poor people and this one is not an exception.

People might be aware that there is a very big NZ property investors Facebook group (53,000 members and counting). Yesterday a developer posted that they have several new townhouses ready for buyers but as agent doesn't know the new build rules sales are at risk. That developer must be worried sick.

[fungus pudding]

The 10% swing voters who change parties probably don't though.

If you followed the standard practice of including the quote you are replying to then we would all have some idea of what you are on about. E.g What is it that 10% of voters don't do? Your posts are simply impossible to follow for us unprophetic mortals.

[Bjauck]

..

I don't understand how anyone can't see this. And how anyone is okay with any governments increasing taxes and coming with new sneaky taxes while they run the most inefficient organization. With all the taxes people are now paying more than 50% of income to the government and it gets worse every year... I agree. I think some can see. However probably insufficient numbers for Labour to rely on in order to get elected. Labour wanted the Treasury Benches and decided that the way to achieve electoral success was by promising not to broaden the tax base by introducing a general CGT etc. However they tried to get around that by making a dog's dinner by introducing a new income tax band, extending brightline, disallowing interest deductions in some circumstances and now saving costs by freezing pay.

Labour becomes "comradey" and flies "The people's red flag" only when it suits them.

[SBQ]

We are still waiting on the definition of "New build" according to Labour. Because obviously their announcement came without actually having an idea what the implementation will be. However you are correct. But my post was to highlight the Labour policies are always hardests on poor people and this one is not an exception.

I can't help but to ask, what do you suggest how the NZ gov't can help those in need, those on low income without proper accommodation or the means to make a living?

All too easy to point the finger and blame and rah rah. I've even given examples what other countries like Canada have done to address these issues but the response is more like, "well if you think Canada is great, why don't you move there right away kind of attitude".

When I moved to NZ 25 years ago, I assumed it was a very progressive country. But all I see is the rich continually suck the wealth from society (by the hands of owning residential properties). Many don't realise that NZ's residential market is a net sum game meaning the actions by the wealthy from buying more and more houses (as demand increases), also punishes the majority in paying more on their mortgages. The winners are the banks as they reap more profits and where do these earnings go?

So again, if everyone is so rah rah on how poor of a job Jacinda and her Labour Party has done, I would suggest gives some other better ideas to this conversation. There's a lot of people I dislike but that doesn't mean I need constantly say so and so is "disgusting" (eh Balance ?)

[SBQ]

I agree. I think some can see. However probably insufficient numbers for Labour to rely on in order to get elected. Labour wanted the Treasury Benches and decided that the way to achieve electoral success was by promising not to broaden the tax base by introducing a general CGT etc. However they tried to get around that by making a dog's dinner by introducing a new income tax band, extending brightline, disallowing interest deductions in some circumstances and now saving costs by freezing pay.

Labour becomes "comradey" and flies "The people's red flag" only when it suits them.

I fail to see the distinction of communism and what the Labour Party has done. Raising taxes is not an act of communism. Capitalism still applies in NZ businesses and if individuals make their wealth, they're able to enjoy it. I do feel Jacinda wanted CGT in NZ (as recommended by the TWG) but there was no way to convince the rest of the NZ gov'ts that CGT would be the best choice. How could you when the majority of NZ gov't politicians own a hefty real estate portfolio? So instead Jacinda when for the easy ones. Very easy to extend the Bright Line test, add another income tax bracket, salary freezes all around. On the latter, it's called leading by example and nothing is worse than gov't politicians having increases in pay while the private sector struggles to employ anyone.

Look at Singapore where they citizens are under strict gov't authoritarian rule while maintain all incentives for capitalism. A system that worked so well, China even copied it. However, the key distinction is China copied only their business economic model and not their individual freedom and rights that western nations embrace. Maybe i'm not seeing the whole picture but communism to me means loss of individual freedoms such as the ability to voice your own opinion, ability of mobility, ability of thoughts and expression to the public, ability to make different choices.

[Bjauck]

Jacinda is a fair weather socialist. If a socialist policy won't get her elected she discards it. NZ has socialised capitalism bounded by tax and regulation.

There is no doubt that NZers wealth is so very heavily dependent on real estate, both owner occupied and rented out. Politicians on both left and right treat it as a sacred cow.

Sure if Individuals inherit or increase their wealth, they keep it*. If people earn income to try to build up wealth, it is taxed - and then any interest - is taxed again. Add to that the GST on necessities too. NZ may have a progressive income tax system but it has has a regressive tax system overall.

*by and large. There are exceptions. Hence individuals have sought the tax efficiency of investing heavily in their owner-occupied real estate.

[peetter]

I can't help but to ask, what do you suggest how the NZ gov't can help those in need, those on low income without proper accommodation or the means to make a living?

All too easy to point the finger and blame and rah rah. I've even given examples what other countries like Canada have done to address these issues but the response is more like, "well if you think Canada is great, why don't you move there right away kind of attitude".

When I moved to NZ 25 years ago, I assumed it was a very progressive country. But all I see is the rich continually suck the wealth from society (by the hands of owning residential properties). Many don't realise that NZ's residential market is a net sum game meaning the actions by the wealthy from buying more and more houses (as demand increases), also punishes the majority in paying more on their mortgages. The winners are the banks as they reap more profits and where do these earnings go?

So again, if everyone is so rah rah on how poor of a job Jacinda and her Labour Party has done, I would suggest gives some other better ideas to this conversation. There's a lot of people I dislike but that doesn't mean I need constantly say so and so is "disgusting" (eh Balance ?)


No tax on first 10-15k of income. Change tax brackets to take into account last 11 years of inflation. No GST on healthy food ingredients you can use to cook from. Government led aprenticeship program that would allow businesses to deduct aprentices as a business expense. Mandatory school finance classes that will teach debt is bad and how to save and invest. Let home owners deduct part of the interest on their house.

Review housing NZ residents need for housing. Kick the ones abusing it. Kick out the ones causing issues. Put time limits for benefits for people who are fit to work.

As for property. Relax zoning. Force councils to clear land for development by private sector, in exchange private sector would have to provide percentage of those houses to FHB through Kainga ora. If you build enough, you'll suspend house prices as is happening in Christchurch.

As for HNZ, build tiny homes, apartments, container homes. It is a huge mistake buying houses for social housing.

[Bjauck]

.... Do you not remember Tom Skinner, Pat Kelly, Ken Doughlas, Bill Richards, Jim Knox and the others - frequently on the news causing mayhem. Yes - they were well known and the harm they did to NZs economy, and reputation was immense. I don't know your age, but you obviously weren't working in that period - when no matter what, you were forced to join their horrible unions, and pay fees. If you could be bothered with the rigmarole you could be a conscientous objector - I was - although I still had to donate the equivalent of the union fees to an approved charity. They were thugs and bullies and it took a brave stance to be an objector.
You should read a bit of history of Trade Unionism in NZ, some of it even interesting like the Trades Hall bombing in 1984, which killed caretaker Ernie Abbot. A horrible period, promoted by scum - to nobodys' benefit.

I was interested to read that an interaction with moaning Brit unionist Pat Kelly had a significant influence on management colossus, Rob Campbell.

“Pat worked for the drivers’ union, and he had some colleagues with him. They were expressing the view that when they went to their wage negotiations and said ‘we’d like more’ and the boss refused, all they could do was either sulk about it or go on strike,” he says"

https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/13-03-2021/the-rob-campbell-paradox-corporate-juggernaut-with-working-class-heart/

The circle of life.

[Balance]

I have written about it before and will do so and repeat once more again!

Copy Singapore's Housing Development Board (HDB) model and provide affordable housing to all NZers who want one.

End of the story.

[SBQ]

No tax on first 10-15k of income. Change tax brackets to take into account last 11 years of inflation. No GST on healthy food ingredients you can use to cook from. Government lead aprenticeship program that would allow businesses to deduct aprentices as a business expense. Mandatory school finance classes that will teach debt is bad and how to save and invest. Let home owners deduct part of the interest on their house.

Review housing NZ residents need for housing. Kick the ones abusing it. Kick out the ones causing issues. Put time limits for benefits for people who are fit to work.

As for property. Relax zoning. Force councils to clear land for development by private sector, in exchange private sector would have to provide percentage of those houses to FHB through Kainga ora. If you build enough, you'll suspend house prices as is happening in Christchurch.

As for HNZ, build tiny homes, apartments, container homes. It is a huge mistake buying houses for social housing.

I'm sure all NZ's gov'ts have looked that these issues. Regarding the income tax exemption limit & no GST on healthy foods, the problem I hear from accountants is it makes the income tax very complicated. When Canada created the GST system, they made foods exempted from this tax. NZ came over and looked at the GST system and brought it over to NZ ; with the exception for simplicity by placing GST on everything at end consumption. Interestingly there is no GST on bank service fees in NZ.

Canada index payments according to inflation. Likewise to investment contributions like their TFSA (Started at $5K / year and how grown to now $6K / year). In fact a lot of the ideas you're saying already exist in Canada. So the real problem is why didn't the NZ gov't copy it? Again the key reason is "in sake for simplicity". Such as NZ residents not requiring to file a tax return every year while in Canada, it's nearly mandatory.

Home owner mortgage interest deductions i'm not a fan of unless the capital gain is taxed. You either run it like a business or you don't. This issue has been hammered in Canada and they found the average person can not file that properly - so better to leave it out and keep the individual principal dwelling as exempt from CGT. But what we have in NZ is it seems that investors into residential properties game it by complaining they can no longer take this mortgage expense deduction while getting away of paying any CGT at the end. This is not fair. But many will disagree saying that it just increases rent which is not the case (again this is not the case in Canada too where taxes are more extreme for those in the rental game; there's a limit to how much more you can increase rent).

Relaxing zones are not the problem. The problem councils have said time and time again is the development cost. Who pays for that like infrastructure? Roadways, sewer, storm water, landscaping, etc. to those new zones? The land owners already pay enough to develop their own roads - but can't ask them to pay for the road ways going in and all the connections? I believe the RMA needs to be changed so that we build UP and not build single story everywhere. But the RMA is just that - it restricts all development going up and adds HUGE costs to compliance and 'notified public resource consents'.

Tiny homes are a waste of time. They don't add real value to the land and are not considered real 'improvements' to the land as they are suppose to be 'temporary' buildings (hence being moveable). In Canada welfare / dole recipients go into gov't housing which is.. MULTISTORY complexes, many nicer than the Somerset / Ryman offerings in NZ to the elderly. The high density living gives low income families no benefit to having their 'own back yard', no ability to park their own vehicles, no pets, ; like they say, when you are poor "you are really poor" and anything else is not a necessity. Keep in mind, the gov't owns these mass complexes and they integrate these buildings within wealthier communities too, so their children go to the same school where the wealthy send their children to.

Have a look what Vancouver is doing:

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/1552-esquimalt-avenue-west-vancouver-rental-housing?auto=true

Compare Vancouver's city landscape the Auckland. There should be no reason why most of Auckland is developed on single story dwellings. All because the RMA restricts everything (and no, i'm sick of the excuse that if you don't have the income, go move to South Auckland where dwellings cost a lot less). The high price neighborhoods NEED intensive high density building.

[peetter]

I'm sure all NZ's gov'ts have looked that these issues. Regarding the income tax exemption limit & no GST on healthy foods, the problem I hear from accountants is it makes the income tax very complicated. When Canada created the GST system, they made foods exempted from this tax. NZ came over and looked at the GST system and brought it over to NZ ; with the exception for simplicity by placing GST on everything at end consumption. Interestingly there is no GST on bank service fees in NZ.

Canada index payments according to inflation. Likewise to investment contributions like their TFSA (Started at $5K / year and how grown to now $6K / year). In fact a lot of the ideas you're saying already exist in Canada. So the real problem is why didn't the NZ gov't copy it? Again the key reason is "in sake for simplicity". Such as NZ residents not requiring to file a tax return every year while in Canada, it's nearly mandatory.

Home owner mortgage interest deductions i'm not a fan of unless the capital gain is taxed. You either run it like a business or you don't. This issue has been hammered in Canada and they found the average person can not file that properly - so better to leave it out and keep the individual principal dwelling as exempt from CGT. But what we have in NZ is it seems that investors into residential properties game it by complaining they can no longer take this mortgage expense deduction while getting away of paying any CGT at the end. This is not fair. But many will disagree saying that it just increases rent which is not the case (again this is not the case in Canada too where taxes are more extreme for those in the rental game; there's a limit to how much more you can increase rent).

Relaxing zones are not the problem. The problem councils have said time and time again is the development cost. Who pays for that like infrastructure? Roadways, sewer, storm water, landscaping, etc. to those new zones? The land owners already pay enough to develop their own roads - but can't ask them to pay for the road ways going in and all the connections? I believe the RMA needs to be changed so that we build UP and not build single story everywhere. But the RMA is just that - it restricts all development going up and adds HUGE costs to compliance and 'notified public resource consents'.

Tiny homes are a waste of time. They don't add real value to the land and are not considered real 'improvements' to the land as they are suppose to be 'temporary' buildings (hence being moveable). In Canada welfare / dole recipients go into gov't housing which is.. MULTISTORY complexes, many nicer than the Somerset / Ryman offerings in NZ to the elderly. The high density living gives low income families no benefit to having their 'own back yard', no ability to park their own vehicles, no pets, ; like they say, when you are poor "you are really poor" and anything else is not a necessity. Keep in mind, the gov't owns these mass complexes and they integrate these buildings within wealthier communities too, so their children go to the same school where the wealthy send their children to.

Have a look what Vancouver is doing:

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/1552-esquimalt-avenue-west-vancouver-rental-housing?auto=true

Compare Vancouver's city landscape the Auckland. There should be no reason why most of Auckland is developed on single story dwellings. All because the RMA restricts everything (and no, i'm sick of the excuse that if you don't have the income, go move to South Auckland where dwellings cost a lot less). The high price neighborhoods NEED intensive high density building.


All I see here are excuses.

Adding a second tier to GST is completely normal in most of the world and something your POS software system will solve for you. The same is with tax returns, you'll add couple of fields to current automatic system and you're done.

Infrastructure - we pay enough in taxes, developers pay horendous amounts of money for consents. Government is just so inefficient they use most for just running itself. And I never said the developments should be low density.

Tiny homes are better solution than motels before you develop enough apartment buildings.

[Balance]

We are witnessing government’s intervention in the housing & accommodation market on a massive scale - with bugger all impact.

Might as well go the whole hog and adopt the Singapore HDB model - affordable housing for all. Better spent of the tens of billions of dollars wasted currently on ill conceived and piece meal solutions.

[fungus pudding]

All I see here are excuses.

Adding a second tier to GST is completely normal in most of the world and something your POS software system will solve for you. The same is with tax returns, you'll add couple of fields to current automatic system and you're done.

Infrastructure - we pay enough in taxes, developers pay horendous amounts of money for consents. Government is just so inefficient they use most for just running itself. And I never said the developments should be low density.

Tiny homes are better solution than motels before you develop enough apartment buildings.

Leave GST well alone. It's the best system for a sales tax in the planet. NZ has been widely praised for its 'no exemption' system.

[SBQ]

All I see here are excuses.

Adding a second tier to GST is completely normal in most of the world and something your POS software system will solve for you. The same is with tax returns, you'll add couple of fields to current automatic system and you're done.

Infrastructure - we pay enough in taxes, developers pay horendous amounts of money for consents. Government is just so inefficient they use most for just running itself. And I never said the developments should be low density.

Tiny homes are better solution than motels before you develop enough apartment buildings.

You may not run your own business but I can assure you the exemptions do add up a lot of time for accountants to figure out. It's not as simple as leaving it to the accounting software to work out it : and why should small businesses rely on it? It's like Xero marketing their payment accounting system to small businesses in the same way as marketing Ferraris to Toyota owners. Translates to a lot of $ spent on something less productive. I think in the past threads we've battled this issue on GST exemptions of food before and I will agree, the 'simplicity' seems to fit nice in NZ; we're a small nation that should not have the vast accounting complexities as the larger nations.

To give you an idea, in Canada no one files a tax return manually on paper. The computations and wording is FAR FAR too complex for the layman that it's pretty much mandatory to use tax filing software. Just like Canada's vast open land and county side, so is their income tax act. Almost every angle you look at has exemptions of some sort. Exemptions for disable people, exemptions for small businesses in certain sectors, exemptions in farming, exemptions oil & gas explorations, medical exemptions if it exceeds a certain amount ratio to the person's low income. It's VAAAAAST! The question I ask here in NZ is do WE need such complexities?

A 'Tiny Home' is no different to a large motorhome and should not be created as a substitute for a proper home. I agree the NZ gov't is slow at the housing issue by WINZ recipients and it's easier to hire out the motels. But the ultimate root problem still lies in NZ's RMA because if you look at how Vancouver is building 'social housing' - those kinds of projects are well beyond what the NZ RMA would ever allow.

So is the problems we have in NZ due to a lack of planning and foresight or, a lack of resources?

[peetter]

Look you asked for suggestions, I gave them. Maybe they are not ideal (took me about 10 minutes on top of my head), but everything is better than solving everything by raising taxes like current government does.

I think you're correct in saying there's no planning. Nobody with balls to actually start huge projects that are necessary.

[Panda-NZ-]

Well we have to fund the shortfall from selling assets for 1/3 of their current value in a recession. fiscal wizards.

National provided 25c to those on the lowest incomes in a growing economy.
50c if they wanted to splurge a bit lol.

[iceman]

Well we have to fund the shortfall from selling assets for 1/3 of their current value in a recession. fiscal wizards.

National provided 25c to those on the lowest incomes in a growing economy.
50c if they wanted to splurge a bit lol.

Too funny. The remaining Government shares in the assets you refer to are worth a lot more than the companies were back when in full Government ownership. It was indeed a very smart move.
No idea what you're referring to with 25c & 50c but no doubt it makes sense to you

[fungus pudding]

Too funny. The remaining Government shares in the assets you refer to are worth a lot more than the companies were back when in full Government ownership. It was indeed a very smart move.
No idea what you're referring to with 25c & 50c but no doubt it makes sense to you

I never know what he/she/it is on about. I doubt if any other posters do either.

[artemis]

We are witnessing government’s intervention in the housing & accommodation market on a massive scale - with bugger all impact.

Might as well go the whole hog and adopt the Singapore HDB model - affordable housing for all. Better spent of the tens of billions of dollars wasted currently on ill conceived and piece meal solutions.

February 2021. New social and transitional housing added - 139. Increase in social housing waiting list - 456. All good then. Right? Just needs a couple more working groups and a whole lot more taxpayer money.

[fungus pudding]

February 2021. New social and transitional housing added - 139. Increase in social housing waiting list - 456. All good then. Right? Just needs a couple more working groups and a whole lot more taxpayer money.

Get Twyford back on the job I say!

[Aaron]

Labour getting tough on immigration? Happy to see as I am a xenophobe who thinks a population of 5 million is about right for a country the size of NZ. The only argument I have seen for a larger population is more people consuming stuff more GDP and a continuation of the endless growth model.

Also I am a greenie and think man made climate change won't be addressed by filling up NZ with more people. Sadly the green party doesn't care about climate change as much.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/green-mp-s-concern-as-ardern-signals-shift-away-from-low-skilled-low-paid-migrants/ar-BB1gIDfu?ocid=msedgntp

[dobby41]

Labour getting tough on immigration? Happy to see as I am a xenophobe who thinks a population of 5 million is about right for a country the size of NZ. The only argument I have seen for a larger population is more people consuming stuff more GDP and a continuation of the endless growth model.

Also I am a greenie and think man made climate change won't be addressed by filling up NZ with more people. Sadly the green party doesn't care about climate change as much.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/green-mp-s-concern-as-ardern-signals-shift-away-from-low-skilled-low-paid-migrants/ar-BB1gIDfu?ocid=msedgntp

Importing low-skill people just makes them cheap - with cheap people, you don't need to increase productivity via mechanisation or similar means (working smarter).
We do need to import some people, though, as our birth rate is below the replacement (around 1.7 v's 2.1 which would be needed) so our population would reduce (like Japan).
If you need to import some people you might as well make them smart people.

[Balance]

Importing low-skill people just makes them cheap - with cheap people, you don't need to increase productivity via mechanisation or similar means (working smarter).
We do need to import some people, though, as our birth rate is below the replacement (around 1.7 v's 2.1 which would be needed) so our population would reduce (like Japan).
If you need to import some people you might as well make them smart people.

Don’t insult the migrants coming to NZ in recent years - anyone of them is harder working and smarter than the multitude of unemployed & unemployables born and bred in NZ.

And now we have a government hell bent on creating more dependents, beneficiaries & deadbeats. Pay more for less or no work - what a fool’s paradise NZ is currently living in.

[Zaphod]

"We want to shift the balance away from low-skilled, low-paid work towards attracting high-skilled migrants and addressing genuine skill shortages in order to improve productivity," Ardern said.

Has there actually been a focus on attracting low-skilled, low paid migrants? How did they get past INZ who make even the visa applications of skilled IT workers very difficult? The article makes several references to the salary being used to determine if immigrants are "low skill".

[Balance]

"We want to shift the balance away from low-skilled, low-paid work towards attracting high-skilled migrants and addressing genuine skill shortages in order to improve productivity," Ardern said.

Has there actually been a focus on attracting low-skilled, low paid migrants? How did they get past INZ who make even the visa applications of skilled IT workers very difficult? The article makes several references to the salary being used to determine if immigrants are "low skill".

You should know by now :

All talk and no delivery - that's Cindy & her team of incompetents.

Busy breeding more beneficiaries and unemployables.

[dobby41]

"We want to shift the balance away from low-skilled, low-paid work towards attracting high-skilled migrants and addressing genuine skill shortages in order to improve productivity," Ardern said.

Has there actually been a focus on attracting low-skilled, low paid migrants? How did they get past INZ who make even the visa applications of skilled IT workers very difficult? The article makes several references to the salary being used to determine if immigrants are "low skill".

They came for 'education' in the very poor English language schools as a pathway to residency.
Under the National Govt we got growth by immigration rather than productivity - that's how we became the 'rock star economy' in 2014.

[Zaphod]

They came for 'education' in the very poor English language schools as a pathway to residency.
Under the National Govt we got growth by immigration rather than productivity - that's how we became the 'rock star economy' in 2014.

I’ve heard this before, but there are a number of issues with that narrative.

ESOL providers have always been regularly audited by both the TEC and NZQA. These regular audits uncover any performance deficit from either an education delivery, qualification outcome, or financial perspective. Those institutions identified as having deficits are given a specific amount of time to rectify the issue, and are placed on a more regular audit schedule. In cases were issues are not rectified accreditation and funding (either for a specific course or for the institution as a whole) can, and in many cases, has been removed.

Completing an ESOL course is not enough to gain residency. Students must either have existing qualifications & experience to meet whatever the current INZ criteria are for awarding a work-visa (these change regularly based on perceived need), or they must attain higher qualifications such as a university degree in an area of shortage, or receive an offer of employment in an area identified having a skills shortage.

National reformed the tertiary education sector in the first term of the Key government, moving from a bums-on-seats based funding model established by Labour in the early 2000’s which ironically resulted in the proliferation of PTEs, to an outcomes based funding model. This resulted in a number of additional poorly performing institutions closing and educational outcomes improving. Successive governments have not changed this approach.

[Balance]

They came for 'education' in the very poor English language schools as a pathway to residency.
Under the National Govt we got growth by immigration rather than productivity - that's how we became the 'rock star economy' in 2014.

Irrespective, they contribute substantially compared to the hundreds of thousands of beneficiaries, unemployables and dead beats born & bred in NZ, especially now by Cindy’s incompetent government.

[artemis]

Importing low-skill people just makes them cheap - with cheap people, you don't need to increase productivity via mechanisation or similar means (working smarter).
We do need to import some people, though, as our birth rate is below the replacement (around 1.7 v's 2.1 which would be needed) so our population would reduce (like Japan).
If you need to import some people you might as well make them smart people.

Good point. And redirecting taxpayer funding from people power, especially lower skilled immigrants, into mechanisation and similar would actually increase productivity. For example New Zealand has already developed and exported apple packing technology, replacing low waged humans (if they can get them). That company, RoboticsPlus, has other products up and running or in development. ACC has invested in their log scaling technology that will reduce potentially thousands of ACC claims.

In the UK an experimental field of I think maize was developed and harvested completely untouched by human hand. Very expensive. But Moore's Law.

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125142382/budget-2021-is-new-zealand-on-the-eve-of-a-new-brain-drain-to-australia

Forget about migrants - how about keeping highly skilled NZers in NZ rather than losing them to countries like Oz?

Compare & contrast what Oz is doing with its budget - tax relief & improving competitiveness as its goal - vs the beneficiaries breeding focus of Cindy’s budget to be.

[SBQ]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125142382/budget-2021-is-new-zealand-on-the-eve-of-a-new-brain-drain-to-australia

Forget about migrants - how about keeping highly skilled NZers in NZ rather than losing them to countries like Oz?

Compare & contrast what Oz is doing with its budget - tax relief & improving competitiveness as its goal - vs the beneficiaries breeding focus of Cindy’s budget to be.

The problem i'm seeing with NZ is high net worth individuals with skills do not come to NZ. As I mentioned in another thread, wife's work mate is looking to move back to the US on the basis of tax inefficiencies here. These individuals that move comprise most of their wealth from stock market investments and when they realise they're paying on a paper gain + no ability to defer tax on the gains, why would the skilled want to move to NZ?

This is why we get a high % of migrants in a skill category that are from other (Asian?) countries where their gov'ts don't provide them with any pension or retirement planning.

Keep questioning why 20% of expat Kiwis live abroad?

[fungus pudding]

The problem i'm seeing with NZ is high net worth individuals with skills do not come to NZ. As I mentioned in another thread, wife's work mate is looking to move back to the US on the basis of tax inefficiencies here. These individuals that move comprise most of their wealth from stock market investments and when they realise they're paying on a paper gain + no ability to defer tax on the gains, why would the skilled want to move to NZ?

This is why we get a high % of migrants in a skill category that are from other (Asian?) countries where their gov'ts don't provide them with any pension or retirement planning.

Keep questioning why 20% of expat Kiwis live abroad?

I don't claim to be a mathematician, but according to my calculations 100% of expats live abroad

[Zaphod]

The problem i'm seeing with NZ is high net worth individuals with skills do not come to NZ. As I mentioned in another thread, wife's work mate is looking to move back to the US on the basis of tax inefficiencies here. These individuals that move comprise most of their wealth from stock market investments and when they realise they're paying on a paper gain + no ability to defer tax on the gains, why would the skilled want to move to NZ?

This is why we get a high % of migrants in a skill category that are from other (Asian?) countries where their gov'ts don't provide them with any pension or retirement planning.

Keep questioning why 20% of expat Kiwis live abroad?

Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree. Why would high net worth individuals come to NZ and reside permanently? We provide a great bolt-hole or a much easier method of emigrating to Australia. What needs to change in this country to attract vast hordes of high skilled individuals? We're busy killing off our major earners, so surely there's a clearly articulated strategy? No, probably not.

[Panda-NZ-]

Microsoft data centres moving to NZ.
Amazon LOTR film production bringing more attention to nz.

We do need to make it easier for tech workers but there was too much low skill immigration.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/emergency-housing-relief-rotorua-solo-mother-sarah-murray-reveals-motel-horror/JIOMNGFNTGGHR2YKFV5QLXNTZY/

Praised overseas for handling unforeseen crises (ChCh massacre, Covid) but busy at home creating crises (housing, child poverty, gangs, crime, business) which Cindy & her team are incapable of managing.

[Bjauck]

Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree. Why would high net worth individuals come to NZ and reside permanently? We provide a great bolt-hole or a much easier method of emigrating to Australia. What needs to change in this country to attract vast hordes of high skilled individuals? We're busy killing off our major earners, so surely there's a clearly articulated strategy? No, probably not. HM NZG's priorities: 1. Making sure the housing market does not implode 2. Not to introduce a general CGT, which is basically a subset of 1.

[SBQ]

Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree. Why would high net worth individuals come to NZ and reside permanently? We provide a great bolt-hole or a much easier method of emigrating to Australia. What needs to change in this country to attract vast hordes of high skilled individuals? We're busy killing off our major earners, so surely there's a clearly articulated strategy? No, probably not.

I always wondered how it was so easy for migrants between both NZ & Aus can freely move between both countries. No visa requirement!! Coming from Canada, the US treats the skilled Cdn moving to the US no different than any OTHER skilled migrant from another country (and vice versa). When we had that Chch mosque shooting, that question came up again. I'm seeing nothing but baddies moving between both countries. Australia rejects law breaking Kiwis living there and sends them back here. That Tarrent guy exploited NZ's ease for Australians to move over. The real question I ask is who are the people that are really benefiting from the Aus/NZ free migration pact deal? Our skilled doctors and nurses moving to Aus for the better climate and higher pay? What % of Aus are we seeing coming over to NZ? What if we close that deal and go back to having borders ; where would that leave NZ if the Visa process became a requirement no different to how other countries treat migrants?

@ Bjauck :

I agree NZ is in a touch situation where the gov't can't let the housing market collapse not equal the tax playing field.

[JBmurc]

HM NZG's priorities: 1. Making sure the housing market does not implode 2. Not to introduce a general CGT, which is basically a subset of 1.

Yes thats our growth engine(based on increasing debt in housing) ... while Aussies Mining Production exploration + downstream wealth from all the sub sectors that benefit from primary industry wealth is going to continue to increase the wage gap and drag even more young skilled kiwis over the ditch .

.. Our Govt pushing Green NIBMY anti fossil fuels anti mining etc ...


. who the hell is going to be able to buy all these million+ valued NZ properties going forward off their parents GEN ?? what NZ jobs will our kids have to get to afford them once Interest rates return to normal ??? can't all be .. sales RE Agents , bankers , Bureaucrats ...the growing NZ sector is Tertiary!!! so less exports of high value per person lower wages Vs Aus growing wages

Industrial structures
In the early 2000s New Zealand’s economic structure was similar to that of other developed economies. It had small primary (mainly agricultural) and secondary (manufacturing) industries, which together accounted for about 29% of New Zealand’s gross domestic product (GDP) in 2008, and a much larger tertiary (services) sector which made up the remaining 71%.

Primary industry was dominated by dairy, sheep and beef farming, and also included forestry and fishing.

Secondary industry was unusual compared to other countries because of the large number of businesses processing primary products, such as dairy, meat and other foodstuffs, and wood and paper. Together these accounted for more than 30% of secondary industry in 2008. Machinery and equipment manufacturing made up another 10%, and aluminium and steel enterprises 8%.

Tertiary industry provided the majority of GDP and employment. Finance, insurance, and other business services made up about 15%, and property services another 15%. Transport, communications, retail, building, education and health each contributed between 5% and 10% of total tertiary industry.

[Balance]

Don’t worry too much about the future - Labour’s aim by 2023 is clearly to put in place a UIE (universal income entitlement) and make as many of the population as dependent on the government as possible to entrench its voters’ base - breeding beneficiaries is its singular focus with all of its free spending no holds bar welfare policies.

[Panda-NZ-]

Australia is on track for a credit rating downgrade (1T debt bomb) while ours is overdue for an upgrade I think.

[Panda-NZ-]

The finance minister has taken the Aussie banks to task for ripping profits out of NZ by removing most of them from default kiwisaver provision.

10% of our kiwisaver balances gone in fees alone while sir John of ANZ was in charge.

[SBQ]

The finance minister has taken the Aussie banks to task for ripping profits out of NZ by removing most of them from default kiwisaver provision.

10% of our kiwisaver balances gone in fees alone while sir John was in charge!


This morning I had a courtesy call from my BNZ manager that by July 1st, they will not longer be accepting cheque deposits. Interesting outcome how the NZ gov't brought in these AML / FMA / CRS regulations trying to deter $ laundering - as I explained to her all this has done is punish the businesses in NZ and it does nothing in addressing those (organised crime / patch gangs) from conducting business. I also explained to her how all the major banks in NZ are foreign owned and asked, "Where do the profits go?"

Indeed these Australian banks are ripping the profits out of NZ through all the residential lending. I wouldn't point the finger at Kiwi Saver for all the $ leaving NZ.

Not sure where the 10% figure on KS balances are coming from? You must be factoring all the taxes that all these NZ managed funds fail clearly disclose?

[Panda-NZ-]

1 % each year in fees to the Aussie banks (who have closed regional branches) over 9 years or so years.

[macduffy]

1 % each year in fees to the Aussie banks (who have closed regional branches) over 9 years or so years.

If you can't beat them, buy them!

[Zaphod]

I always wondered how it was so easy for migrants between both NZ & Aus can freely move between both countries. No visa requirement!! Coming from Canada, the US treats the skilled Cdn moving to the US no different than any OTHER skilled migrant from another country (and vice versa). When we had that Chch mosque shooting, that question came up again. I'm seeing nothing but baddies moving between both countries. Australia rejects law breaking Kiwis living there and sends them back here. That Tarrent guy exploited NZ's ease for Australians to move over. The real question I ask is who are the people that are really benefiting from the Aus/NZ free migration pact deal? Our skilled doctors and nurses moving to Aus for the better climate and higher pay? What % of Aus are we seeing coming over to NZ? What if we close that deal and go back to having borders ; where would that leave NZ if the Visa process became a requirement no different to how other countries treat migrants?

New Zealand citizens traveling to Australia to live & work do actually require a visa, which in this case is a subcategory 444 visa but which does not require any pre-travel application or payment and is issued at discretion of the immigration agent once you present yourself at the border. The reciprocal arrangement is implemented in a similar fashion for Australian citizens wishing to live & work in New Zealand.

From a Canadian perspective, If I remember correctly, there were some roles which had the automatic right to work in the USA under the NAFTA agreement. The roles were very limited and there were restrictions, but that's probably the closest comparison.

In terms of the Tarrent situation, there appears to be nothing to alert authorities that he would become a threat. He wasn't on any watch lists, hadn't previously committed a crime, but his travel patterns did appear suspicious in hindsight. I think it would be unlikely that any of the other categories of NZ visas would have be able to filter out his intent.

[Zaphod]

Microsoft data centres moving to NZ.
Amazon LOTR film production bringing more attention to nz.

We do need to make it easier for tech workers but there was too much low skill immigration.


Data centres don't provide very much ongoing economic benefit aside from their initial construction or on-going lease, maintenance, & electricity consumption costs.

Filming in NZ always seems to involve vast quantities of tax relief & general subsidies before companies agree to produce films here. The last economic analysis I skim read stated that it was of a net benefit to the country, but it would be nice if the highly profitable studios could foot the bill themselves don't you think?



The finance minister has taken the Aussie banks to task for ripping profits out of NZ by removing most of them from default kiwisaver provision.
.

Really? I think this statement made by David Clark illustrates why the new providers were chosen: "The six default providers were selected because they offer the best value for money for their members in terms of lower fees and higher levels of service."

Besides which, there are still a number of Australian owned firms on the default provider list.

[Zaphod]

HM NZG's priorities: 1. Making sure the housing market does not implode 2. Not to introduce a general CGT, which is basically a subset of 1.

We're a simple folk here in NZ aren't we? Keeping our ambitions to a minimum.

[SBQ]

New Zealand citizens traveling to Australia to live & work do actually require a visa, which in this case is a subcategory 444 visa but which does not require any pre-travel application or payment and is issued at discretion of the immigration agent once you present yourself at the border. The reciprocal arrangement is implemented in a similar fashion for Australian citizens wishing to live & work in New Zealand.

From a Canadian perspective, If I remember correctly, there were some roles which had the automatic right to work in the USA under the NAFTA agreement. The roles were very limited and there were restrictions, but that's probably the closest comparison.

In terms of the Tarrent situation, there appears to be nothing to alert authorities that he would become a threat. He wasn't on any watch lists, hadn't previously committed a crime, but his travel patterns did appear suspicious in hindsight. I think it would be unlikely that any of the other categories of NZ visas would have be able to filter out his intent.

The visa is given at border upon arrival is the biggest distinction (no prior arrangement required) which is basically... a free ticket to going to Australia from NZ. You just say you're looking for employment and they rubber stamp you with the visa (at least this is how this was described by my cousins who left to Aus over 10 or 15 years ago).

Hold on there about your NAFTA statement. They are entirely different to what we have with NZ & Australia:

1) No person is allowed to search for employment. Ie the Cdn that is gaining employing in the US must ONLY be done so by invitation by the US employer and like any visa. Not go and visit the US and hand out a bunch of resumes trying to find the right job.

2) The most distinctive difference between NZ/Aus and the USMCA is neither Cdn or American can obtain full permanent residency. The reason is under the TN visa, the applicant must demonstrate INTENT to MOVE back. Therefore the Cdn under a TN visa is not the path for a green card (despite the TN visa can indefinitely be renewed - this rarely happens. - ie borders service will wonder after 9 years you're application to keep renewing is well... no demonstration to move back to Canada and will deny the application). Instead the path to getting the green card residency is under the H-1B visa which ding ding! treats migrants no different than ANY OTHER person around the world applying for a work visa.

Overall the deal with NAFTA was not about employment migration but rather, about COMMERCIAL TRADE. The USMCA made the trade field more equitable such as Canada allowing more dairy imports from the US (by trying to abolish these absurd high import tariffs) and by allowing companies to send their staff to either countries freely to promote their products at ie. trade shows, etc. this means the goods and services would freely cross borders. But hardly a comparison to what NZ/Aus has which basically has an open door policy for migration between both countries.

The issue with Tarrent, as in his manifest, citing that NZ was an easy place for him to move over and obtain firearms. It may be highly probably that if NZ / Aus didn't have open borders, then at best he may of only come to NZ as a tourist. Just look over in the US/Canada and see how many cases of foreign visitors obtaining firearms and shooting people up? What i'm getting at is the 1st line of defense is not at the firearms licensing level but at the border security.

[Panda-NZ-]

1) No person is allowed to search for employment. Ie the Cdn that is gaining employing in the US must ONLY be done so by invitation by the US employer and like any visa. Not go and visit the US and hand out a bunch of resumes trying to find the right job.


Canada has tightened up on migration of Americans recently particuarly those who have little to offer their country too.

When you're dealing americans it has become a necessity to introduce "a character test" or tighten up more.

[Zaphod]

The visa is given at border upon arrival is the biggest distinction (no prior arrangement required) which is basically... a free ticket to going to Australia from NZ. You just say you're looking for employment and they rubber stamp you with the visa (at least this is how this was described by my cousins who left to Aus over 10 or 15 years ago).

There is still a character test which can and has tripped up New Zealanders attempting to enter, now that sharing of criminal history between the two countries is undertaken, plus the additional eligibility restrictions. There is also no path of citizenship under this visa (similar to what was applicable to NAFTA).




Hold on there about your NAFTA statement. They are entirely different to what we have with NZ & Australia:

As I mentioned there are similarities, but they are not the same. I was tempted to cite WHP visas given their open employer and temporary status, but given other restrictions I am not sure they form an appropriate comparison.

Remember too that the SCV subsection 444 visa with Australia, like NAFTA, was also borne from commercial trade with Australia under CER (although the current SCV incarnation of the right to work did not exist until the mid 1990's) where New Zealanders were classified as exempt non-citizens.

I am not sure what the current USMCA terms are for employment, but are probably much more restrictive and overall a dogs breakfast.



The issue with Tarrent, as in his manifest, citing that NZ was an easy place for him to move over and obtain firearms. It may be highly probably that if NZ / Aus didn't have open borders, then at best he may of only come to NZ as a tourist. Just look over in the US/Canada and see how many cases of foreign visitors obtaining firearms and shooting people up? What i'm getting at is the 1st line of defense is not at the firearms licensing level but at the border security.

If he wished to commit an atrocity in Australia as a citizen or NZ as a tourist, he would no doubt have been able to gain the resources to do so through a network of people in each respective country with similar ideals. IMO it would be overkill to remove the ability for New Zealanders and Australians to work in each other's country based on this specific incident, when other methods of filtering such people could be undertaken.

There is an undercurrent to removing the right to work, particularly for New Zealanders in Australia. It was not a hot topic when I worked in Australia full time, but it has now gained some momentum.

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/125098964/the-state-paid-1300-a-week-for-a-room-in-emergency-housing-where-a-boy-was-murdered-but-what-did-it-do-to-keep-him-safe

$1,300 a week for emergency room in a motel, no follow up by any state service providers and murder was committed.

This is how this government is spending freely & recklessly to be seen to try & overcome homelessness & child poverty.

[winner69]

Budget day ...we are blessed that the economy is doing a lot better than expected and that Grant can throw a few more zillion around.

I don’t there will be much in the budget for me personally ...that’s being selfish ...but the country will be a lot better off and that’s important

[fungus pudding]

Budget day ...we are blessed that the economy is doing a lot better than expected and that Grant can throw a few more zillion around.

I don’t there will be much in the budget for me personally ...that’s being selfish ...but the country will be a lot better off and that’s important

Good for real estate investors to see an inflationary budget. A bit of a bonus after being taxed on their mortgage interest payments. As Nino Culloto wrote way back 'Theyre a weird mob'.

[Balance]

A ‘throw money’ at breeding beneficiaries & dependents budget from Clueless Cindy as expected.

[Panda-NZ-]

Westpac NZ is looking for a buyer -- would be nice to see a lowball offer from the govt, 51% like the power companies.

Stops it going from falling into Chinese hands who may be the only buyers for it.

[Panda-NZ-]

A ‘throw money’ at breeding beneficiaries & dependents budget as expected.

Tens of billions lower debt than expected.

NZX up already on these world leading set of results.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/budget-2021-government-to-spend-33-billion-to-lift-up-to-33000-children-out-of-poverty/TCTHE46SPF6IYWABL3PQL6YO6M/

$100,000 per child - that’s how clueless Cindy is about lifting children out of poverty.

To be expected from a woman whose only claim to business experience is working in a greasy fish & chips shop.

[Getty]

A budget of global proportions.

The price of Gold has increased by US$9 since he delivered it...

[Blue Skies]

Very disappointed with the paltry increase in Pharmac budget, extra 50M per year for 4 years is pathetic esp when so much money being splashed around on other things.

[jonu]

Very disappointed with the paltry increase in Pharmac budget, extra 50M per year for 4 years is pathetic esp when so much money being splashed around on other things.

Not enough votes to be gained. Pure and simple. That's Ardern's "be kind...if there's votes in it" policy.

[Panda-NZ-]

Generic medications are cheap as chips so don't require much of an increase.

Experimental gene therapies cost as much as $1mil per patient.

[Panda-NZ-]

I think as a supporter of jacinda the budget is rather mediocre this time:

The short termism is nearly identical to what National would do with an debt-funded income tax cut to win an election.

Would like have to seen more of a micheal cullen mindset of long term investments.
Still better than a Judith Collins administration by a long way.

[fungus pudding]

Generic medications are cheap as chips so don't require much of an increase.

Experimental gene therapies cost as much as $1mil per patient.
That must be the ultimate
generalization of all time.

[SBQ]

I think as a supporter of jacinda the budget is rather mediocre this time:

The short termism is nearly identical to what National would do with a debt-funded income tax cut to win an election.

Would like have to seen more of a micheal cullen mindset of long term investments.
Still better than a Judith Collins administration by a considerable way.

I agree. This new budget is bad - something I find difficult to swallow coming from Canada. There's no long term plan. Just throw a bunch of money to those on the benefit. No plan to empower those with disabilities, no plan to 'get them productive' to society.

Where's Jacinda's delivery? only time will tell.

[Panda-NZ-]

That must be the ultimate
generalization of all time.

In this NZ herald article it mentions the treatment is 430k each year. It's probably not a cure or even close to it though I'm an expert in pharma.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/budget-2021-cystic-fibrosis-fighter-livid-at-pharmacs-budget/TVQVU6SE26QITOIWVKWEZ4H2D4/

drugs are either very cheap or expensive with little in between.

[Panda-NZ-]

Trikafta was only developed last year so it will come down in price.

Don't see why we should pay $500k/y when the cost will come down later.
Also important to keep in mind its sadly not a cure with only a 20% improvement in respiratory health.

[Panda-NZ-]

I agree. This new budget is bad - something I find difficult to swallow coming from Canada. There's no long term plan. Just throw a bunch of money to those on the benefit. No plan to empower those with disabilities, no plan to 'get them productive' to society.

Where's Jacinda's delivery? only time will tell.

It's already here: no covid, great economy, surplus in 2026.
Though labour should, rightly, set higher standards even if national woukd crow from the rooftops if they were in.

[Bjauck]

I agree. This new budget is bad - something I find difficult to swallow coming from Canada. There's no long term plan. Just throw a bunch of money to those on the benefit. No plan to empower those with disabilities, no plan to 'get them productive' to society.

Where's Jacinda's delivery? only time will tell. The budget was mixed. The government has already thrown a lot at keeping people in jobs during the past year. NZ still has poverty/poor housing illnesses. That is disgraceful considering our expensive residential housing and how much money goes into land-based investment. Our incidence of rheumatic fever is shameful for a “developed” country.

We should nurture NZ born children and enable them to be more productive to reduce the dependence on immigration.

Also…education, education, education. Let’s aspire to be a high value added economy not a feudal/peasant type society where investment mostly ends up in land.

[fungus pudding]

I agree. This new budget is bad - something I find difficult to swallow coming from Canada. There's no long term plan. Just throw a bunch of money to those on the benefit. No plan to empower those with disabilities, no plan to 'get them productive' to society.

Where's Jacinda's delivery? only time will tell.

David Seymour was well worth listening to on Newshub Nation this morning. No doubt about it - he's the master of constructive criticism.

[Panda-NZ-]

Also…education, education, education. Let’s aspire to be a high value added economy not a feudal/peasant type society where investment mostly ends up in land.

Yeah. More into the NZ super fund which would not appear as debt, but assets, are totally missed even though its low hanging fruit.
Take back control etc.

[Panda-NZ-]

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/05/fewer-people-at-the-table-grant-robertson-all-smiles-at-no-longer-having-to-please-winston-peters.html

It's a shame since they would have benefited from Winston's years of experience at the table. NZ's moderating force to stop the impulses of both sides and ocassionally have some good ideas. :)

[fungus pudding]

The budget was mixed. The government has already thrown a lot at keeping people in jobs during the past year. NZ still has poverty/poor housing illnesses. That is disgraceful considering our expensive residential housing and how much money goes into land-based investment. Our incidence of rheumatic fever is shameful for a “developed” country.

We should nurture NZ born children and enable them to be more productive to reduce the dependence on immigration.

Also…education, education, education. Let’s aspire to be a high value added economy not a feudal/peasant type society where investment mostly ends up in land.

And where does the money that paid for the land end up?

[Bjauck]

And where does the money that paid for the land end up? In large part it goes back into investing in land along with more money, creating some of the most expensive residential land in the OECD. Where do you think it ends up?

[SBQ]

The budget was mixed. The government has already thrown a lot at keeping people in jobs during the past year. NZ still has poverty/poor housing illnesses. That is disgraceful considering our expensive residential housing and how much money goes into land-based investment. Our incidence of rheumatic fever is shameful for a “developed” country.

We should nurture NZ born children and enable them to be more productive to reduce the dependence on immigration.

Also…education, education, education. Let’s aspire to be a high value added economy not a feudal/peasant type society where investment mostly ends up in land.

Yup - that was the Cdn initiative some 30 years ago ; put the investment into the young and break that dependency of being on welfare. My highschool observation had me see many of my friends coming off the welfare into decent paying jobs. The BC gov't had grants for those on welfare for education. One took the bite and studied computers and IT ; landed a job with the RCMP police force and after 30 years, he's retired. Those with disabilities yes I can understand ; but if you have 2 hands and a functioning brain, there's no reason why they can be productive and contribute to society. The gov't even had free sessions on how to make a resume / CV / free job counseling. I think there are these services in NZ? (but uncertain if WINZ pushes that focus?)

Again - Yes thumbs up Education, Education... Education

[Panda-NZ-]

Yup - that was the Cdn initiative some 30 years ago ; put the investment into the young and break that dependency of being on welfare. My highschool observation had me see many of my friends coming off the welfare into decent paying jobs. The BC gov't had grants for those on welfare for education. One took the bite and studied computers and IT ; landed a job with the RCMP police force and after 30 years, he's retired. Those with disabilities yes I can understand ; but if you have 2 hands and a functioning brain, there's no reason why they can be productive and contribute to society. The gov't even had free sessions on how to make a resume / CV / free job counseling. I think there are these services in NZ? (but uncertain if WINZ pushes that focus?)

Again - Yes thumbs up Education, Education... Education

Yeah and like 2% of young people are on welfare, talk about a non-issue

I think Bjauck wants workers to have more productivity through a more european approach through investing in the human capital slightly more. More technology, learning how to use cloud software, machine learning etc.

[fungus pudding]

In large part it goes back into investing in land along with more money, creating some of the most expensive residential land in the OECD. Where do you think it ends up?
So is God hovering around making more of this land stuff?

[Panda-NZ-]

There are supply issues everywhere so not a good time for complex "plans" but when people are exporting raw materials again maybe gigatown for the whole of NZ would be good. or at least the other major cities.

[Bjauck]

So is God hovering around making more of this land stuff? Good One. Nope - It is just the policies here that create the expense and have made Gods' own land on these islands so expensive.

A saves money, cashes in some Kiwisaver, gets an inheritance, gets a loan on security of the real estate itself and buys the real estate for $1m from B. B takes the $1m and gets $1m from the bank to buy real estate from C. And So On....

[peetter]

Yeah and like 2% of young people are on welfare, talk about a non-issue

I think Bjauck wants workers to have more productivity through a more european approach through investing in the human capital slightly more. More technology, learning how to use cloud software, machine learning etc.


Even though the unemployment for young people is low, educating them to progress from minimum wage is extremely important. There's shortage of trades people who can make really nice wages, but instead the government is all for minimum wage jobs with no skill progress.

As for learning how to use cloud software and machine learning, don't kid ourselfves. There's about 1% of population actually capable of doing jobs like that.

[Panda-NZ-]

Much more than that. Most professionals are going to need it in some form. I agree with your first statement though on the need for skills at any age.

Some more action on the age discrimination side would be good too.

[peetter]

We struggled to get sysadmins for months even though the salary was above average. Not for lack of candidates, but because most of them don't have enough to actually be successful at the job. At certain point you get to brain capacity limits that are not possible to overcome with just learning. Either you got it or not. Machine learning, automation, data mining and other similar roles are on even higher level. If middle level IT job is hard to fill out of hundreds of applicants, I think your assumption that average people will be able to get into machine learning is just naive.

It's the same situation as how governments are increasing education levels by pumping out bogus degrees with zero real life use.

[Panda-NZ-]

It's probably easier to get positions filled than if we had heaps of dropouts.

Though unis do need to ensure what they are teaching is current and make the point that learning never stops.

[Baa_Baa]

We struggled to get sysadmins for months even though the salary was above average. Not for lack of candidates, but because most of them don't have enough to actually be successful at the job. At certain point you get to brain capacity limits that are not possible to overcome with just learning. Either you got it or not. Machine learning, automation, data mining and other similar roles are on even higher level. If middle level IT job is hard to fill out of hundreds of applicants, I think your assumption that average people will be able to get into machine learning is just naive.

It's the same situation as how governments are increasing education levels by pumping out bogus degrees with zero real life use.

The border being all but closed for ages, except to returning kiwis, created a real problem on top of the problem that you describe which has existed in my sector for quite some time. Get this, trying to hire senior people into high paid roles (range $150k - $220k).. went to market 13 times for 7 different roles, placed only one person and they turned out to be useless. Took on some grads as well recently, apart from being bright young people with high energy and enthusiasm, unfortunately they didn't work out sp well either as the jobs really require lots of experience. Desperate times finding, let alone placing, high calibre talent which just aren't out there looking for jobs. Luring people out of their existing jobs is extremely difficult.

[Panda-NZ-]

It's shame we can't allow for long term contracts with obligations for both sides, so training young people becomes viable.

The "market" is overly transactional at times but its an issue everywhere I suppose.

[artemis]

It's shame we can't allow for long term contracts with obligations for both sides, so training young people becomes viable.

The "market" is overly transactional at times but its an issue everywhere I suppose.

Apprenticeships are usually at least medium term contracts in practice. Rights and responsibilities on each side. Not all employers / employees are a good match so binding contracts just won't always work. At least with apprenticeships there are umbrella organisations eg Skills, that can help sort issues. Trainees / apprentices are mostly young and inexperienced and not in a good position to navigate complex employment issues on their own.

We had direct experience with this in our family, the apprentice's first role was very badly managed on several fronts. Eventually moved to a different employer - better but still issues. Now just out of his time and had several employers come knocking.

[peetter]

It's shame we can't allow for long term contracts with obligations for both sides, so training young people becomes viable.

The "market" is overly transactional at times but its an issue everywhere I suppose.


Problem is companies often see internal growth as cheap labour. I have experience with this on multiple occasions. You learn, get more responsibilities, get promoted, but your salary doesn't grow at the same rate. If you ask for payrise they look at you like you're some kind of alien. So the only way to get your worth is to leave. Having long term contract would probably hurt the employee much more.

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/300315022/nz-is-too-small-to-forget-its-reliance-on-china

Lest the politicians forget where & who NZ’s economic well being depend on.

"Free trade with China has also been an essential component in our rapid recovery from the financial effects of the global pandemic.

Dairy exports remained almost unaffected, and farmers enjoyed sustained high prices for their raw milk. For the year ended June 2020, China bought $32.4 billion of the $86.4b worth of goods New Zealand exported: that is a massive 37.5 per cent.

None of this is to say New Zealand should remain silent or bow down to China’s every wish.

Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta struck the right chord when she said the relationship should be one of mutual respect. New Zealand refused to allow Chinese company Huawei to bid for the right to build our 5G cellular network due to well-founded security concerns, and Parliament unanimously declared severe human rights abuses are occurring against the Uyghur people in China’s Xinjiang province.

Despite David Seymour’s headline grabbing statement we absolutely should care about trade, we’re too small not to."

[Zaphod]

The border being all but closed for ages, except to returning kiwis, created a real problem on top of the problem that you describe which has existed in my sector for quite some time. Get this, trying to hire senior people into high paid roles (range $150k - $220k).. went to market 13 times for 7 different roles, placed only one person and they turned out to be useless. Took on some grads as well recently, apart from being bright young people with high energy and enthusiasm, unfortunately they didn't work out sp well either as the jobs really require lots of experience. Desperate times finding, let alone placing, high calibre talent which just aren't out there looking for jobs. Luring people out of their existing jobs is extremely difficult.

Having experienced this issue myself with recruitment, this formed the the key driver for me to move to a role contracting to companies to supply services which I knew they couldn't easily recruit for or which would only justify a fixed term position. High quality talent that are already employed, as you say, aren't looking for new roles despite throwing fairly large remuneration packages at them.

Those that left my former employer often went overseas, particularly to the USA where salaries were 2-3 times what we paid here and with much lower living costs. One of my friends from high school with a PhD ended up working for Amazon earning serious money.

[jonu]

Probably wishful thinking that this will be taught in the new woke curriculum but we can live in hope.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/telling-it-like-it-was-the-timid-curriculum/ar-AAKnhRX?ocid=msedgntp

[dobby41]

Probably wishful thinking that this will be taught in the new woke curriculum but we can live in hope.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/telling-it-like-it-was-the-timid-curriculum/ar-AAKnhRX?ocid=msedgntp

They should teach it - a shocking inditement on colonisation.
Arming them was a bad move.

[jonu]

They should teach it - a shocking inditement on colonisation.
Arming them was a bad move.

Oh My....aren't you being a tad patronising? Did Maori have no say in the matter. Yes, arms dealing is an immoral business, but those who pull the trigger bear responsibility for their own actions.

But yes, the full history should be taught, including the slave keeping and cannibalistic slaughter.

[dobby41]

Oh My....aren't you being a tad patronising? Did Maori have no say in the matter. Yes, arms dealing is an immoral business, but those who pull the trigger bear responsibility for their own actions.

But yes, the full history should be taught, including the slave keeping and cannibalistic slaughter.

I agree.
But, of course, their history is little different from other civilisations. Maybe they were a little later to the party but, I suppose, isolation can affect that.

[Baa_Baa]

What about the history of NZ pre-Maori (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=new+zealand+pre+maori+history )?

[dobby41]

What about the history of NZ pre-Maori (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=new+zealand+pre+maori+history )?

That is less definite.
How much time do they have to teach all this?

[Baa_Baa]

That is less definite.
How much time do they have to teach all this?

It’s either the history of NZ or it’s not. The current direction is a curriculum of post-Maori occupation which is just part of NZ history

[dobby41]

It’s either the history of NZ or it’s not. The current direction is a curriculum of post-Maori occupation which is just part of NZ history

Unfortunately, the pre-Maori history is not decided - depends on who you talk to as to whether it is the history of NZ or not.
I don't have a view either way and find it all very interesting.

[Bjauck]

It’s either the history of NZ or it’s not. The current direction is a curriculum of post-Maori occupation which is just part of NZ history History is always through the lens of the current regime, usually to justify whatever is the current philosophy.

[Panda-NZ-]

History is always through the lens of the current regime, usually to justify whatever is the current philosophy.

Yes for instance we know little about ancient carthage even though they were likely better than rome in agriculture, finance and had their own seperation of powers developing.

[jonu]

Here's the real damage these woke idiots are determined to wreak on us.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/05/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-shrugs-off-concerns-about-teaching-white-privilege.html

Ardern's answer? Change the subject. What a piece of work!

[Balance]

Here's the real damage these woke idiots are determined to wreak on us.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/05/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-shrugs-off-concerns-about-teaching-white-privilege.html

Ardern's answer? Change the subject. What a piece of work!

Her arrogance & utter contempt for the average Kiwis who work hard to support their families will be the clueless one’s undoing.

[Baa_Baa]

Her arrogance & utter contempt for the average Kiwis who work hard to support their families will be the clueless one’s undoing.

What will it take for them to realise that though, another term after this one? Cringe.

[fungus pudding]

What will it take for them to realise that though, another term after this one? Cringe.
Voters often vote against the party they don't want even if they dislike the mob they vote for . And not many want National under Collins, so if the Nats don't find a new leader Ardern is there for at least one more term.

[Sgt Pepper]

Voters often vote against the party they don't want even if they dislike the mob they vote for . And not many want National under Collins, so if the Nats don't find a new leader Ardern is there for at least one more term.
One possibility, which I have raised before, is that Jacinda Ardern does not stay as leader and resigns, as John Key did in 2016. Notwithstanding the current high approval ratings the current government is vulnerable. A significant cohort of highly indebted home owners are extremely vulnerable to any upward movement in interest rates. The government is struggling with housing, thousands live in motels. In health we are on the cusp of a Nursing strike with a vast chasm between what is being offered and what members expectations are.

[artemis]

One possibility, which I have raised before, is that Jacinda Ardern does not stay as leader and resigns, as John Key did in 2016. Notwithstanding the current high approval ratings the current government is vulnerable. A significant cohort of highly indebted home owners are extremely vulnerable to any upward movement in interest rates. The government is struggling with housing, thousands live in motels. In health we are on the cusp of a Nursing strike with a vast chasm between what is being offered and what members expectations are.

Labour plus Greens looks very viable for 2023 at present. Good time to hope for the best, plan for the worst.

[Balance]

One possibility, which I have raised before, is that Jacinda Ardern does not stay as leader and resigns, as John Key did in 2016. Notwithstanding the current high approval ratings the current government is vulnerable. A significant cohort of highly indebted home owners are extremely vulnerable to any upward movement in interest rates. The government is struggling with housing, thousands live in motels. In health we are on the cusp of a Nursing strike with a vast chasm between what is being offered and what members expectations are.

The Clueless Cindy knows only two things - Covid crisis (her answer to every question) & throwing taxpayers' & increasingly, borrowed monies at every problem. No accountability & no transparency.

So much wasteful spending everywhere you can see but she is busy breeding beneficiaries & Labour's voter base - smart politics but at the expense of hard working resilient & self motivated NZers, and future generations are going to pay big time.

Not a clue about businesses & economic matters so yes, I believe she will bail out when she knows the almighty mess she has created and will be leaving behind a stinking big mess for somebody else to clean up.

What a nation of sheep NZers are.

[fungus pudding]

One possibility, which I have raised before, is that Jacinda Ardern does not stay as leader and resigns, as John Key did in 2016. Notwithstanding the current high approval ratings the current government is vulnerable. A significant cohort of highly indebted home owners are extremely vulnerable to any upward movement in interest rates. The government is struggling with housing, thousands live in motels. In health we are on the cusp of a Nursing strike with a vast chasm between what is being offered and what members expectations are.

She won't resign until she has got them over the line for a 3rd term, then she'll be off to the U.N in some capacity. Betcha.

[ynot]

The Clueless Cindy knows only two things - Covid crisis (her answer to every question) & throwing taxpayers' & increasingly, borrowed monies at every problem. No accountability & no transparency.

So much wasteful spending everywhere you can see but she is busy breeding beneficiaries & Labour's voter base - smart politics but at the expense of hard working resilient & self motivated NZers, and future generations are going to pay big time.

Not a clue about businesses & economic matters so yes, I believe she will bail out when she knows the almighty mess she has created and will be leaving behind a stinking big mess for somebody else to clean up.

What a nation of sheep NZers are.

I could not agree more. We will be paying the price for this spend up for years to come. What's more the very people she is claiming to represent are going to ware the brunt of the damage.
Sure we can pick up social welfare to those less fortunate if primarily we focus on maintaining a boyant successful economy, but unless that is encouraged by government, where will the money for the spend up come from ?

[Zaphod]

I could not agree more. We will be paying the price for this spend up for years to come. What's more the very people she is claiming to represent are going to ware the brunt of the damage.
Sure we can pick up social welfare to those less fortunate if primarily we focus on maintaining a boyant successful economy, but unless that is encouraged by government, where will the money for the spend up come from ?

The policies may increase migration to countries such as Australia, that isn't as actively strangulating their economy through bans on oil, gas and mineral exploration for example. If that drains more of the skilled workforce, we're going to be in some serious trouble.

[Panda-NZ-]

I could not agree more. We will be paying the price for this spend up for years to come. What's more the very people she is claiming to represent are going to ware the brunt of the damage.
Sure we can pick up social welfare to those less fortunate if primarily we focus on maintaining a boyant successful economy, but unless that is encouraged by government, where will the money for the spend up come from ?

Biden on track to spend $6T more, we are underspending and that will be the main issue I think.
https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-business-government-and-politics-5ea838e8734f136143fd8850d5c42aad

The paradigm has changed when you can issue your own money.

[Panda-NZ-]

The policies may increase migration to countries such as Australia, that isn't as actively strangulating their economy through bans on oil, gas and mineral exploration for example. If that drains more of the skilled workforce, we're going to be in some serious trouble.

Australia's unemployment and debt much higher than here and they're on track to lose their credit rating.

You can tell China is simply waiting for brazil to become operational soon again.
Btw 2.6k jobs added plus 1.1k affordable homes built by the company.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/125227243/billiondollar-sleepyhead-development-gets-the-goahead

LOTR tv films, infrastructure, microsoft data centres, sleepyhead. We simply don't have the workers for this success. I would say there's no need for jobs currently since we're near full capacity and it's time to move on soon.

[ynot]

Biden on track to spend $6T more, we are underspending and that will be the main issue I think.
https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-business-government-and-politics-5ea838e8734f136143fd8850d5c42aad

The paradigm has changed when you can issue your own money.
US has the backing of the fed. Big difference to NZ borrowing like there is no tomorrow.

[Panda-NZ-]

There is zero difference. we own all the debt that was created at 1% interest rates (so it erodes in real terms).

We don't really need to pay back things we owe to ourselves though we're still on track to if that's your measure of success for some rather strange reason.

[Bjauck]

The policies may increase migration to countries such as Australia, that isn't as actively strangulating their economy through bans on oil, gas and mineral exploration for example. If that drains more of the skilled workforce, we're going to be in some serious trouble.

Previous National Party Governments had also seen lots of Kiwis head to Australia for higher wages etc. So no change there!

I am not sure why this government is criticised by conservatives. Ardern has taken a comprehensive CGT off the table. She has boosted benefits so that beneficiaries can afford to pay their landlords' rents and spend more on business owners' goods and services.

Teaching history from a neo-liberal point of view as opposed to a post-imperial or a cultural-cringe point of view is a small price to pay for what amounts to mere tinkering around the edges of the status quo.

A high wage and high productivity economy is still in the too hard basket.

[Panda-NZ-]

If she wants to change tax policy or other economic settings then it needs to be taken to an election.

People are already cyncical of politicians and we don't need to add to it even though national did with GST.

[Bjauck]

One possibility, which I have raised before, is that Jacinda Ardern does not stay as leader and resigns, as John Key did in 2016. Notwithstanding the current high approval ratings the current government is vulnerable. A significant cohort of highly indebted home owners are extremely vulnerable to any upward movement in interest rates. The government is struggling with housing, thousands live in motels. In health we are on the cusp of a Nursing strike with a vast chasm between what is being offered and what members expectations are. Spot on! This has been the NZ problem for decades. Housing is too important to fail. It has been fed like a queen bee. While the lowly workers spend their lives tending it.

[Panda-NZ-]

Importantly it's not foreign buyers like it was under National but returning citizens who now have roots here it would seem.

These returning nzers have their own income from their private super & pension schemes on the way too since our policies there have been rather incompetent over time.

[Zaphod]

Australia's unemployment and debt much higher than here and they're on track to lose their credit rating.

But as you've stated previously, debt isn't an issue anymore as we can simply inflate it away!




LOTR tv films, infrastructure, microsoft data centres, sleepyhead. We simply don't have the workers for this success. I would say there's no need for jobs currently since we're near full capacity and it's time to move on soon.

LOTR (and filming in general) requires massive tax-payer subsidies to supposedly become economic. A data centre doesn't create large scale long-term employment, it's only short term during the construction phase, and having this located in NZ is of marginal benefit to customers as opposed to being based in Australia. Sleepyhead will certainly make significant profits on housing, but where's the long-term value in mass manufacturing of beds in such a remote country with low population whose shipping costs will escalate massively as climate change initiatives take hold? So far you haven't provided any examples of big wins for the country.

[Panda-NZ-]

But as you've stated previously, debt isn't an issue anymore as we can simply inflate it away!



You can't fudge international credit ratings. Well you can but there's no incentive to do it in this part of the world.

We've had an upgrade, them an outlook downgrade. no spending on infrastructure in their budget or anything which will last.

[Panda-NZ-]

My main disappointment with NZ's govt though is not placing cheap money into the NZ super fund even though it would show as an asset.

[Zaphod]

Previous National Party Governments had also seen lots of Kiwis head to Australia for higher wages etc. So no change there!

This was supposed to be a government of transformational change. Surely we're not going to see a continuation of the same situation? I was assured it would be different.



I am not sure why this government is criticised by conservatives. Ardern has taken a comprehensive CGT off the table. She has boosted benefits so that beneficiaries can afford to pay their landlords' rents and spend more on business owners' goods and services.

Creating a problem (CGT) then proposing to remove it from consideration, doesn't entitle Labour to any accolades. As for the other points, this assumes that these are the only important issues that concern so called conservatives. Based on the recent press releases, rental properties appear to be owned by a large swath of Labour-party MP's as well so it would appear we all have a vested interest.


Teaching history from a neo-liberal point of view as opposed to a post-imperial or a cultural-cringe point of view is a small price to pay for what amounts to mere tinkering around the edges of the status quo.

A high wage and high productivity economy is still in the too hard basket.

The only plan presented thus far appears to be legislating our way to a high wage economy. As usual, we don't have a plan.

[Panda-NZ-]

The only plan presented thus far appears to be legislating our way to a high wage economy. As usual, we don't have a plan.

Interesting where you think Australia's high wages come from?

Not exactly an innovative powerhouse is it (but stuck in the 1960's).

Maybe a small reason could be their wage award system?

[BDL]

Panda, do you not look at the ASX? Over 2000 companies, many VERY innovative, world beating and high tech.

Also some of the best miners in the world, rear earths, plus metals etc. Politically stable country.
NZ is still really just a bunch of farmers producing basic commodities. Hence why we are so scared of China. We are nothing but China's "useful idiots"

Mate, you couldn't be further from the mark if you tried about Australia ........

[Panda-NZ-]

CSL and XRO and that's it (the latter an NZ company founded in 2006)

[BDL]

Yip, that comment just proves it......

[Panda-NZ-]

Many of their farmers are on welfare through drought relief anyway, so it doesn't count.

You can easily provide some "innovative" companies which aren't BHP or Westpac if you would like to.

[BDL]

You are just talking crap mate.

No point in this......

[Panda-NZ-]

Cold hard facts mate sorry for that.

https://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/countries/14

Economic complexity levels which are typical of an impoverished developing nation.

[Panda-NZ-]

ASX components:

https://www.asx200list.com/

Most of the innovation there is from us, or america.
Something in the water which makes them incapable of it lol.

[Zaphod]

ASX components:

https://www.asx200list.com/

Most of the innovation there is from us, or america.
Something in the water which makes them incapable of it lol.

In terms of innovation in America, most companies are likely be situation or listed in the US, so let's narrow this down by excluding Canada and the countries in South America.

Your logic appears to be:
1. All (or at least the vast majority) of innovative companies are listed on the ASX.
2. There are (apparently) more NZ companies on this list therefore we are more innovative.

What about the confounding variables, including:
1. How the ASX200 list is defined
2. What defines an innovative businesses
3. Innovative companies below the top 200
4. Non listed innovative companies in each country
5. Innovative companies listed in foreign markets (for example, perhaps the trend is for Australian companies to list in the US or Europe)

You can't draw any meaningful conclusions about innovation in NZ v Australia from a list of ASX200 participants.

[kiora]

If you don’t want to live in a country where there are two governments and where the tribal elite clip the ticket and Maori sovereignty activists call the shots, you should sign this petition.
https://www.hobsonspledge.nz/reject_co-governance?recruiter_id=18761

[fungus pudding]

Someone just forwarded the following to me. No doubt it's doing the rounds by email - I have no idea who wrote it, no names or identification - but it's interesting.







MEDIA MUST BE DECEITFUL ABOUT TREATY AS A CONDITION OF FUNDING

Are you wondering why NZ’s media has suddenly gone crazy on Maori language and other Maori issues? The answer is simple. MONEY. YOUR MONEY, GIVEN TO THEM BY ARDERN.
Most shockingly, it’s all part of Labour’s nefarious plan to install a part-Maori ‘partnership’ government as indicated by the recently revealed He Puapua document.
In order to qualify for these government grants (Labour’s rescue package) media have to jump through hoops, and one of those hoops is embracing the ideology of the radical part-Maori separatists who make up a large part of the Labour government.
To get their grubby grasping hands on the $55 million in the second tranche of funding for “Public Interest Journalism”, media must agree to staff training in “Te Tiriti Education”.
Journalism funded under the scheme must “actively promote the principles of Partnership, Participation and Active Protection under Te Tiriti o Waitangi acknowledging part-Māori as a Te Tiriti partner.”
Get it? IN ORDER TO QUALIFY FOR THE HAND-OUTS, media must acknowledge and perpetuate propaganda identifying the Treaty of Waitangi as the basis for a ‘partnership’.
This ‘partnership’ claim of course is completely false. A total deception. There was never any partnership proposed in the treaty.
This question of media independence has assumed greater significance since this government launched their new public interest journalism project.

Ardern and her part-Maori caucus are extorting the New Zealand media to indulge in mistruths, falsehoods and fabrications and the New Zealand media are so cravenly unprincipled, broke and worthless, they’re happy to do so. This is a clear direction for the use of these part-Maori separatist radicals.
The first eligibility requirement listed in the application advice package is --
“Actively promote the principles of Partnership, Participation and Active Protection under Te Tiriti o Waitangi acknowledging Maori as a Te Tiriti partner”.
So this is why the media are now inundating the public with Maori language, culture, and endless lies about the fabricated Treaty partnership – because they are being paid by this Government to do so?
How can this possibly be seen as anything but a corruption of media independence – turning what used to be our Fourth Estate into a Government propaganda machine.
It is truly disgraceful. As well, there are requirements for staffing.
Appropriate people attached to the project are in leadership roles who can manage and advise on these cultural and spiritual aspects of the production at critical stages (e.g. research, language advisors)
Now we know what Broadcast Minister Kris Faafoi was telling the media when he visited every newsroom in the country prior to the last election.
TO SUMMARISE, the Ardern govt and the NZ media (by means of dollars taken from you) are combined in an illegitimate de-facto government who are really controlled by the part-Maori caucus of Labour, and they are intent on pushing the ‘partnership’ structure as the rightful government of NZ. In other words, a complete standing on its head of our current Westminster based democracy.
Would 52% of NZers have voted for Labour in the 2020 election if they had known this truth? Very doubtful.
The country has been deceived and conned by Ardern in the worst possible way and the NZ media are complicit in this charade, boots and all. SHAME ON THEM ALL.

[ynot]

Just shows you how quickly things can deterorate in the wrong hands. Until recently I always believed corrupt governments were of 3rd world origins. Apparently not.

[jonu]

Someone just forwarded the following to me. No doubt it's doing the rounds by email - I have no idea who wrote it, no names or identification - but it's interesting.







MEDIA MUST BE DECEITFUL ABOUT TREATY AS A CONDITION OF FUNDING

Are you wondering why NZ’s media has suddenly gone crazy on Maori language and other Maori issues? The answer is simple. MONEY. YOUR MONEY, GIVEN TO THEM BY ARDERN.
Most shockingly, it’s all part of Labour’s nefarious plan to install a part-Maori ‘partnership’ government as indicated by the recently revealed He Puapua document.
In order to qualify for these government grants (Labour’s rescue package) media have to jump through hoops, and one of those hoops is embracing the ideology of the radical part-Maori separatists who make up a large part of the Labour government.
To get their grubby grasping hands on the $55 million in the second tranche of funding for “Public Interest Journalism”, media must agree to staff training in “Te Tiriti Education”.
Journalism funded under the scheme must “actively promote the principles of Partnership, Participation and Active Protection under Te Tiriti o Waitangi acknowledging part-Māori as a Te Tiriti partner.”
Get it? IN ORDER TO QUALIFY FOR THE HAND-OUTS, media must acknowledge and perpetuate propaganda identifying the Treaty of Waitangi as the basis for a ‘partnership’.
This ‘partnership’ claim of course is completely false. A total deception. There was never any partnership proposed in the treaty.
This question of media independence has assumed greater significance since this government launched their new public interest journalism project.

Ardern and her part-Maori caucus are extorting the New Zealand media to indulge in mistruths, falsehoods and fabrications and the New Zealand media are so cravenly unprincipled, broke and worthless, they’re happy to do so. This is a clear direction for the use of these part-Maori separatist radicals.
The first eligibility requirement listed in the application advice package is --
“Actively promote the principles of Partnership, Participation and Active Protection under Te Tiriti o Waitangi acknowledging Maori as a Te Tiriti partner”.
So this is why the media are now inundating the public with Maori language, culture, and endless lies about the fabricated Treaty partnership – because they are being paid by this Government to do so?
How can this possibly be seen as anything but a corruption of media independence – turning what used to be our Fourth Estate into a Government propaganda machine.
It is truly disgraceful. As well, there are requirements for staffing.
Appropriate people attached to the project are in leadership roles who can manage and advise on these cultural and spiritual aspects of the production at critical stages (e.g. research, language advisors)
Now we know what Broadcast Minister Kris Faafoi was telling the media when he visited every newsroom in the country prior to the last election.
TO SUMMARISE, the Ardern govt and the NZ media (by means of dollars taken from you) are combined in an illegitimate de-facto government who are really controlled by the part-Maori caucus of Labour, and they are intent on pushing the ‘partnership’ structure as the rightful government of NZ. In other words, a complete standing on its head of our current Westminster based democracy.
Would 52% of NZers have voted for Labour in the 2020 election if they had known this truth? Very doubtful.
The country has been deceived and conned by Ardern in the worst possible way and the NZ media are complicit in this charade, boots and all. SHAME ON THEM ALL.

I have no way of knowing how accurate this is. I certainly can't rely on Mainstream Media to report on it.

Whether true or not, the State bailouts in an election year were perhaps the most blatant bribes in this county's history.

I have noticed that both Stuff and The Herald websites now carry specialist Maori issues sections. Stuff in particular is full noise woke on any issue you can name, the Herald is not far behind. The indoctrination of Post-modern Marxism that has been prevalent in the Universities for 20-30 years, is spreading into all levels of education, largely unchallenged. Most of our MPs have come through the University system and take it as the norm. Ardern lives and breathes it.

[jonu]

Double posted. This website still has major tech issues.

[Sgt Pepper]

Someone just forwarded the following to me. No doubt it's doing the rounds by email - I have no idea who wrote it, no names or identification - but it's interesting.







MEDIA MUST BE DECEITFUL ABOUT TREATY AS A CONDITION OF FUNDING

Are you wondering why NZ’s media has suddenly gone crazy on Maori language and other Maori issues? The answer is simple. MONEY. YOUR MONEY, GIVEN TO THEM BY ARDERN.
Most shockingly, it’s all part of Labour’s nefarious plan to install a part-Maori ‘partnership’ government as indicated by the recently revealed He Puapua document.
In order to qualify for these government grants (Labour’s rescue package) media have to jump through hoops, and one of those hoops is embracing the ideology of the radical part-Maori separatists who make up a large part of the Labour government.
To get their grubby grasping hands on the $55 million in the second tranche of funding for “Public Interest Journalism”, media must agree to staff training in “Te Tiriti Education”.
Journalism funded under the scheme must “actively promote the principles of Partnership, Participation and Active Protection under Te Tiriti o Waitangi acknowledging part-Māori as a Te Tiriti partner.”
Get it? IN ORDER TO QUALIFY FOR THE HAND-OUTS, media must acknowledge and perpetuate propaganda identifying the Treaty of Waitangi as the basis for a ‘partnership’.
This ‘partnership’ claim of course is completely false. A total deception. There was never any partnership proposed in the treaty.
This question of media independence has assumed greater significance since this government launched their new public interest journalism project.

Ardern and her part-Maori caucus are extorting the New Zealand media to indulge in mistruths, falsehoods and fabrications and the New Zealand media are so cravenly unprincipled, broke and worthless, they’re happy to do so. This is a clear direction for the use of these part-Maori separatist radicals.
The first eligibility requirement listed in the application advice package is --
“Actively promote the principles of Partnership, Participation and Active Protection under Te Tiriti o Waitangi acknowledging Maori as a Te Tiriti partner”.
So this is why the media are now inundating the public with Maori language, culture, and endless lies about the fabricated Treaty partnership – because they are being paid by this Government to do so?
How can this possibly be seen as anything but a corruption of media independence – turning what used to be our Fourth Estate into a Government propaganda machine.
It is truly disgraceful. As well, there are requirements for staffing.
Appropriate people attached to the project are in leadership roles who can manage and advise on these cultural and spiritual aspects of the production at critical stages (e.g. research, language advisors)
Now we know what Broadcast Minister Kris Faafoi was telling the media when he visited every newsroom in the country prior to the last election.
TO SUMMARISE, the Ardern govt and the NZ media (by means of dollars taken from you) are combined in an illegitimate de-facto government who are really controlled by the part-Maori caucus of Labour, and they are intent on pushing the ‘partnership’ structure as the rightful government of NZ. In other words, a complete standing on its head of our current Westminster based democracy.
Would 52% of NZers have voted for Labour in the 2020 election if they had known this truth? Very doubtful.
The country has been deceived and conned by Ardern in the worst possible way and the NZ media are complicit in this charade, boots and all. SHAME ON THEM ALL.

Although one must be careful about unauthored articles, the basic observations regretfully are probably correct. I was reading about the NZ Green Party explanation of why they are revisiting the co-leadership model, Chloe Swarbrick indicated they should have a Te Tirit or Trans co leadership model,(????).
I am not sure what irritates me more these days, the drivel coming from our politicians or the fact that I have to help pay their salaries. If you read some of their bio details I suspect many of them have not had to work in their entire lives. Just my rant, what are others opinions/.

[Panda-NZ-]

National did shady deals with the Maori party even though they didn't need their support (at all).

Labour put in the foreshore and seabead act (2004) which many of these "activists" weren't happy about. I think that both sides have their own glaring issues on this topic.

[jonu]

National did shady deals with the maori party even though they didn't need their support (at all).

Labour put in the foreshore and seabead act (2004) which many of these "activists" weren't happy about.
Both sides have their issues on this.

It wasn't the Nats who bribed Mainstream Media with 10s of millions of dollars to promote their agenda. All the while, Ardern was appearing on the 1pm daily propaganda briefing. Sad times.

[Panda-NZ-]

The media called the changes to law 'controversial' back then for some reason.

So I suppose they were retrospectively influenced by woke agendas in 2004?

It looked fine to me - I think all citizens here own the land not selective groups -- tribal or private. Definately not "no one".

[jonu]

The media called the changes to law "controversial" back then for some reason.

Unless they were retrospectively w0ke why did they call the 2004 changes controversial?
It looked fine to me -- every citizen owns private land not selective groups.

That's because you have no understanding of what you are talking about. They were controversial enough to lose Labour the Maori seats they had held for 50+ years. Now Ardern can't bend over far enough to accommodate her Maori caucus for fear of it happening again.

[Panda-NZ-]

$50m to the media supposedly.
Still far less than the $1b+ Finlayson handed over for no apparent reason.

Then we have this wonderful pro-Iwi legislation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_and_Coastal_Area_(Takutai_Moana)_Act_2011

If no one owns property then it doesn't exist legally..
So anyone can place an oil site or improvised landfill there I suppose.

[jonu]

$50m to the media supposely. Still far less than the $1b+ Finlayson handed over for no reason.

50 million was just the first tranche....in Election Year! Now they are handing over more. I have no idea what your Finlayson remark is referring to. Like many of your posts unfortunately.

[jonu]

I have no way of knowing how accurate this is. I certainly can't rely on Mainstream Media to report on it.

Whether true or not, the State bailouts in an election year were perhaps the most blatant bribes in this county's history.

I have noticed that both Stuff and The Herald websites now carry specialist Maori issues sections. Stuff in particular is full noise woke on any issue you can name, the Herald is not far behind. The indoctrination of Post-modern Marxism that has been prevalent in the Universities for 20-30 years, is spreading into all levels of education, largely unchallenged. Most of our MPs have come through the University system and take it as the norm. Ardern lives and breathes it.

Just to emphasise....Here's Margaret Mutu playing the victim card in the Class Struggle.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/m%C4%81ori-studies-professor-explains-why-white-supremacy-is-very-normalised-in-nz-needs-to-be-taken-seriously/ar-AAKDFPj?ocid=msedgntp

Ms Mutu has done very well for someone so oppressed. She also appears to ignore the parts of her whakapapa that don't suit her victim mentality. As for the "Doctrine of Discovery".... more classic Marxism. Those European explorers were able to do what they did through superior technology and were hunting Resources, not souls, though they often dressed it differently. This, by the way, was no different from those Maori that went on the rampage once they gained European technology.

All this is not to say that Maori in many instances were not screwed over, or that Racism does not exist in this country. It's just interesting that Maori grievance industry leaders don't seem interested in inter-Maori conflicts where the barbarism was far worse than anything inflicted by Colonial powers.

If Ms Mutu's version of History is what Ardern wants taught in schools (I suspect it is) be prepared for your children to emerge Marxist.

[dobby41]

Just to emphasise....Here's Margaret Mutu playing the victim card in the Class Struggle.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/m%C4%81ori-studies-professor-explains-why-white-supremacy-is-very-normalised-in-nz-needs-to-be-taken-seriously/ar-AAKDFPj?ocid=msedgntp

Ms Mutu has done very well for someone so oppressed. She also appears to ignore the parts of her whakapapa that don't suit her victim mentality. As for the "Doctrine of Discovery".... more classic Marxism. Those European explorers were able to do what they did through superior technology and were hunting Resources, not souls, though they often dressed it differently. This, by the way, was no different from those Maori that went on the rampage once they gained European technology.

All this is not to say that Maori in many instances were not screwed over, or that Racism does not exist in this country. It's just interesting that Maori grievance industry leaders don't seem interested in inter-Maori conflicts where the barbarism was far worse than anything inflicted by Colonial powers.

If Ms Mutu's version of History is what Ardern wants taught in schools (I suspect it is) be prepared for your children to emerge Marxist.

Well said.
Most people paint the picture they want to be seen and ignore inconvenient truths.
I don't, at all, agree with your conclusion though.

[Panda-NZ-]

The extinction of the moa and beutiful haast eagle were on maori.

The claims by some that Maori were good environmental guardians or "stewards" is rather unfounded given this history.

[Panda-NZ-]

We can bring them back though since the DNA is available thankfully.
... a boost to both science and tourism ?

[Zaphod]

We can bring them back though since the DNA is available thankfully.
a boost to both science and tourism ?

Unfortunately no, it's not possible at the moment, even with the DNA.

[dobby41]

The extinction of the moa and beutiful haast eagle were on the maori.

The claims by some that Maori were good environmental guardians or "stewards" is rather unfounded given this history.

Maybe it's degrees of stewardship?
How much has been lost since colonisation?

The demise of the Haast Eagle was due to the loss of Moa (their primary prey).

[Sideshow Bob]

$785m for a bike/walk Harbour bridge - New Auckland Harbour Bridge: Second standalone bridge for cyclists, pedestrians confirmed - NZ Herald (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/new-auckland-harbour-bridge-second-standalone-bridge-for-cyclists-pedestrians-confirmed/CM4653SLAHKBUFBNWD5XPGN3N4/)

$500k for flood relief - Canterbury flooding: $500,000 in support unlocked for farmers and growers - NZ Herald (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/canterbury-flooding-500000-in-support-unlocked-for-farmers-and-growers/AJGJZ3DXGXORIHVUIROUI7XVKY/)

[Bjauck]

$785m for a bike/walk Harbour bridge - New Auckland Harbour Bridge: Second standalone bridge for cyclists, pedestrians confirmed - NZ Herald (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/new-auckland-harbour-bridge-second-standalone-bridge-for-cyclists-pedestrians-confirmed/CM4653SLAHKBUFBNWD5XPGN3N4/)

$500k for flood relief - Canterbury flooding: $500,000 in support unlocked for farmers and growers - NZ Herald (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/canterbury-flooding-500000-in-support-unlocked-for-farmers-and-growers/AJGJZ3DXGXORIHVUIROUI7XVKY/)

If the floods had affected lycra-clad cappuccino socialists do you think more would have gone for flood relief?

[peetter]

I actually think a walking/cycling crossing is a good idea, however $785m (guessing this will end up over 2billion when/if finished) is just a waste of money. Don't tell me this couldn't be done for under $100 mil.

[Panda-NZ-]

Lots of features for a bridge though.

More cycleways are a good idea, would only need one road per large city vs the many thousands of roads for cars.

[Sideshow Bob]

I actually think a walking/cycling crossing is a good idea, however $785m (guessing this will end up over 2billion when/if finished) is just a waste of money. Don't tell me this couldn't be done for under $100 mil.

I actually think a bike/pedestrian harbour crossing is a good idea - but a "nice to have". I'm sure it could be found to be done either alot cheaper or incorporated in other transport infrastructure projects.

Just think the "estimated" cost is completely obsene and other spending priorities out there. Imagine what a nurse in Hamilton or a policeman in Hokitika thinks of this when they've been told they're in for a wage freeze for the next 3 years.

Shows how the govt are just willing to spend and borrow.

[Panda-NZ-]

National wanted to spend up to $8-10b on subsidies for business though and the richest people in the country. Our economic results shows it wasn't needed so I suppose those are savings?

Plus keeping corona contained successfully which is rather unique for a western country.

[ynot]

Notice how little resistance the police applied to the bridge protesters last weekend. hmm !

[justakiwi]

This comment is along the same lines as something you posted in the OCA thread yesterday. Puzzled me then and puzzles me now. Are you seriously suggesting we should start messing with DNA/nature to this extent? Bring back dinosaurs and extend the life of a 105 year old man so he never has to die? Do you really believe any of this would be a wise thing to do? Your thought process is more than a little disturbing.


We can bring them back though since the DNA is available thankfully.
a boost to both science and tourism ?

[Panda-NZ-]

Nature is almost extinct if you haven't taken notice recently.
I have no problem with using science to allieviate suffering for both humans and others.

[kiora]

Notice how little resistance the police applied to the bridge protesters last weekend. hmm !

Yes and great to see we live in a mellow democracy :)

[justakiwi]

You're not talking about "alleviating suffering." You're talking about bringing extinct animals back to life for "tourism" purposes, and making humans live forever. Both of which are seriously irrational ideas.


Nature is almost extinct if you haven't taken notice recently.
I have no problem with using science to allieviate suffering for both humans and others.

[Panda-NZ-]

Spending 10+ trillion per year on a biological issue is not overly rational I think.
These funds should be freed up to restore nature and resolve climate change.

Human society will discover this technology eventually so it's a bit of a false choice to be against it.

[justakiwi]

I literally have no idea what you are talking about. What biological issue are are you referring to?


Spending 10+ trillion per year on a biological issue is not overly rational.
These funds should be freed up to retore nature and resolve climate change.

Human society will discover this technology eventually so it's a bit of a false choice to be against it. The main thing we should do is put strong ethics around it in any case it is applied.

[Panda-NZ-]

Retirement etc?

People should be able to remain 30 if they want, or be restored to that state of living. There seems to be clear incentives for any scientific organisation to look into it.

[Baa_Baa]

I literally have no idea what you are talking about. What biological issue are are you referring to?

🤣 it’s a rare condition fortunately where the fruit loops, a waste of time reading let alone engaging.

[Panda-NZ-]

Baaa if you want lower taxes for some reason (i dont) then you should be for that.

https://figure.nz/chart/2eIStXKBWssxMIze

Most spending on the developed world is on this issue.

[justakiwi]

Ah, now I see! Alternate reality situation. Got it.


Retirement etc?

People should be able to remain 30 if they want.
Something sadly changes over time and we need to know what it is.

[Panda-NZ-]

Enjoy the reality of 100m dying each year and tens on trillions heaped upon it.

[jonu]

Someone please tell me we have reached "Peak Stupid"

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/125347551/controversial-womens-group-granted-use-of-nelson-council-venue

The post-modern Marxism tentacles are everywhere. Ardern's government wants biological men, with male genitalia intact, to be able to legally declare themselves as women. Women (real women) who are concerned about this are painted as divisive and apparently need to be silenced.

This quote from the article probably sums it up “You only need to look at their name, and know that they don't see transgender women as women, and that’s as transphobic as it gets.”

[justakiwi]

Geez, today is shaping up to be a day of “justakiwi in your face.”

As someone who has a very dear friend who is transgender, your comments are not only disrespectful and offensive, but also ignorant.

Unless you have walked in a transgender person’s shoes, or have a close, caring, respected friendship or relationship with someone who is transgender, you literally have no idea what you are talking about.

Clearly you’re one of those men who believe your masculinity is based on the existence of your penis. I have news for you. You are not your penis and your penis isn’t you. It’s simply a useful appendage. If you were unfortunate enough to lose your penis in a serious accident, would you still be a man?

I’m a woman - yeah, a biological “real woman” (your words, definitely not mine) and I am not even remotely “concerned.” When my friend told me she was transgender I educated myself, had an open mind, and tried to put myself in her position to better understand it. I 100% get it now. It’s not rocket science. It disgusts me that in this day and age there are still so many narrow minded, self-righteous, judgmental human beings on this planet who consider other human beings to be freaks simply because they don’t fit your narrow view of “normal.”

Sometimes I am truly ashamed to be a member of this so-called human race.



Someone please tell me we have reached "Peak Stupid"

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/125347551/controversial-womens-group-granted-use-of-nelson-council-venue

The post-modern Marxism tentacles are everywhere. Ardern's government wants biological men, with male genitalia intact, to be able to legally declare themselves as women. Women (real women) who are concerned about this are painted as divisive and apparently need to be silenced.

This quote from the article probably sums it up “You only need to look at their name, and know that they don't see transgender women as women, and that’s as transphobic as it gets.”

[artemis]

Someone please tell me we have reached "Peak Stupid"

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/125347551/controversial-womens-group-granted-use-of-nelson-council-venue

The post-modern Marxism tentacles are everywhere. Ardern's government wants biological men, with male genitalia intact, to be able to legally declare themselves as women. Women (real women) who are concerned about this are painted as divisive and apparently need to be silenced.

This quote from the article probably sums it up “You only need to look at their name, and know that they don't see transgender women as women, and that’s as transphobic as it gets.”

We have one in the immediate family (late teens). Family is supportive but the teenager has multiple issues and there are indications of grooming (expensive tech items appearing and no questions from family permitted). It's not always straightforward.

Still the post was about public venues (considering) denying access to certain groups on what appear to be specious safety grounds - not Nelson fortunately despite their angst. That is a very slippery slope. As are requests to public libraries to remove certain books.

[Panda-NZ-]

Sometimes I am truly ashamed to be a member of this so-called human race.

You just have to outlive the detractors. :p

[jonu]

Geez, today is shaping up to be a day of “justakiwi in your face.”

As someone who has a very dear friend who is transgender, your comments are not only disrespectful and offensive, but also ignorant.

Unless you have walked in a transgender person’s shoes, or have a close, caring, respected friendship or relationship with someone who is transgender, you literally have no idea what you are talking about.

Clearly you’re one of those men who believe your masculinity is based on the existence of your penis. I have news for you. You are not your penis and your penis isn’t you. It’s simply a useful appendage. If you were unfortunate enough to lose your penis in a serious accident, would you still be a man?

I’m a woman - yeah, a biological “real woman” (your words, definitely not mine) and I am not even remotely “concerned.” When my friend told me she was transgender I educated myself, had an open mind, and tried to put myself in her position to better understand it. I 100% get it now. It’s not rocket science. It disgusts me that in this day and age there are still so many narrow minded, self-righteous, judgmental human beings on this planet who consider other human beings to be freaks simply because they don’t fit your narrow view of “normal.”

Sometimes I am truly ashamed to be a member of this so-called human race.

You make an awfully large number of assumptions there justakiwi, the main one being that I'm uninformed. I have looked at this issue in depth. I also have a family member who has had surgeons mutilate their body in a way which not long ago (quite rightly IMHO) never would have been performed on ethical grounds, those being 1. There was nothing wrong with the organs 2. The state of the mental health of the patient

The Emperor's New Clothes is being played out in front of us.

The trans weight lifter selected for NZ to compete at the Olympics only highlights how ridiculous this has got. Women's tennis lookout.

[peetter]

You make an awfully large number of assumptions there justakiwi, the main one being that I'm uninformed. I have looked at this issue in depth. I also have a family member who has had surgeons mutilate their body in a way which not long ago (quite rightly IMHO) never would have been performed on ethical grounds, those being 1. There was nothing wrong with the organs 2. The state of the mental health of the patient

The Emperor's New Clothes is being played out in front of us.

The trans weight lifter selected for NZ to compete at the Olympics only highlights how ridiculous this has got. Women's tennis lookout.

Anyone supporting trans women competing in sports against women is clearly delusional. It's a complete denial of biological facts of male physical advantages. I am pro anyone changing their body however they want to, but at least be reasonable about it. If trans want to compete, they should have their own category.

However it's fun watching this unravel. Feministic leftist idealogy just completely turned against women. That's just golden. I say let the trans compete and completely take over womens sport...

[Panda-NZ-]

Sports are rather boring anyway. I dont understand people who waste their time on it.

[jonu]

Anyone supporting trans women competing in sports against women is clearly delusional. It's a complete denial of biological facts of male physical advantages. I am pro anyone changing their body however they want to, but at least be reasonable about it. If trans want to compete, they should have their own category.

However it's fun watching this unravel. Feministic leftist idealogy just completely turned against women. That's just golden. I say let the trans compete and completely take over womens sport...

Careful peeter, you just labelled Ardern's government delusional. You'll be banned from public spaces next.

[Panda-NZ-]

Be kind jon :)

Those who are not kind are at risk to be exported to somewhere more aligned with their outlook on the world.

[Panda-NZ-]

Hear Jacinda speak about her life and growing up in NZ on CNN.
One of her frequent appearances on american cable news.

https://edition.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/axe-files (https://edition.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/axe-files)

She is also good friends with stephen colbert.

[fungus pudding]

Our secretive govt.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/125352433/this-government-promised-to-be-open-and-transparent-but-it-is-an-artfullycrafted-mirage

An interesting article.

'Perhaps the trials and tribulations of the nation’s journalists do not concern you. Why should you care?
Because the public’s impression of this government is the very opposite.
They see a prime minister that has captivated the world with her ‘authentic’ communication style, intimate social media postings, daily Covid briefings and proactive releases of Cabinet papers.
It is an artfully-crafted mirage, because the reality is very different. This is a Government that is only generous with the information that it chooses to share'.

[jonu]

Our secretive govt.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/125352433/this-government-promised-to-be-open-and-transparent-but-it-is-an-artfullycrafted-mirage

An interesting article.

'Perhaps the trials and tribulations of the nation’s journalists do not concern you. Why should you care?
Because the public’s impression of this government is the very opposite.
They see a prime minister that has captivated the world with her ‘authentic’ communication style, intimate social media postings, daily Covid briefings and proactive releases of Cabinet papers.
It is an artfully-crafted mirage, because the reality is very different. This is a Government that is only generous with the information that it chooses to share'.

I'm picking at some point this term, the media pack are going to go feral on Ardern. Only one or two of the old dogs in the Press Gallery have called BS from early in her reign. The rest were fawning over her from the minute she replaced Little prior the 2017 election. MSM have a lot to answer for in this respect, however it is very interesting to see the ballooning numbers of "Communications" staff, many of whom no doubt, have media training.

[Panda-NZ-]

She did interviews with Mike Hosking until recently.
Despite this he could never find a smoking gun, or anything that newsworthy.

[justakiwi]

You may not realise it, or have intended it, but your chosen wording below is transphobic. If you had been talking about a biological woman or man, there is no way you would have said “we have one in the family.”










We have one in the immediate family (late teens).

[Panda-NZ-]

It looks like mike hosking wanted to stop the interviews:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/04/mike-hosking-says-he-doesn-t-want-pm-jacinda-ardern-back-on-radio-show-after-interview.html

Maybe she would still be on if not for that decision.
He 'cancelled' her .. :(

[fungus pudding]

You may not realise it, or have intended it, but your chosen wording below is transphobic. If you had been talking about a biological woman or man, there is no way you would have said “we have one in the family.”

I haven't got one in my family. Does that meet with your approval?

[peetter]

You may not realise it, or have intended it, but your chosen wording below is transphobic. If you had been talking about a biological woman or man, there is no way you would have said “we have one in the family.”

One is perfectly normal word to describe a person. You're only looking for something transphobic and therefore you see it everywhere.

[justakiwi]

If you say so. Have a lovely day.

[macduffy]

Much food for thought in Andrea Vance's article. I've always regarded her as one of our best, unbiased journalists.

[fungus pudding]

It looks like mike hosking wanted to stop the interviews:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/04/mike-hosking-says-he-doesn-t-want-pm-jacinda-ardern-back-on-radio-show-after-interview.html

Maybe she would still be on if not for that decision.
He 'cancelled' her ... :(

To qualify that, he doesn't want to have her running his program by using it as a format to use only when and as she likes. If she was prepared to continue her regular spot then he would have been happy with that. He certainly shouldn't be dictated to by anyone who just wants broadcasting time to suit themselves. Good on him for his stance.

[Panda-NZ-]

She showed up for full length interviews for four to six years.
In contrast :
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/john-key-dismisses-campbell-live-as-entertainment/OQ67UM5MMRIBO45ATGWDS7BPYU/

Now Newshub has been turned from a serious news channel into a childcare centre (AM show) in the mornings. :\
Weekends are a bit better though.

[iceman]

You may not realise it, or have intended it, but your chosen wording below is transphobic. If you had been talking about a biological woman or man, there is no way you would have said “we have one in the family.”

OMG justswiwi. You’re taken this way too far. I read it to mean that artemis has one transgender person in the family. Calling that transphobic is stepping way over the line in my view

[jonu]

OMG justswiwi. You’re taken this way too far. I read it to mean that artemis has one transgender person in the family. Calling that transphobic is stepping way over the line in my view

It's very difficult to have reasoned logical debate with people about "Trans" issues, largely because the whole topic is devoid of Reason and Logic.

First step of Identity Politics is "paint yourself as victim" and thereby dictate the narrative because anyone is howled down for even questioning.

Then, with "Trans" issues, the inverse of Reason and Science is applied, hence The Emperor's New Clothes result. A man can be a woman and vice versa....and you're not allowed to question it because someone might commit suicide.

Tomorrow I might declare myself Black, cos y'know Black Lives Matter. I'm a blue eyed European but doesn't matter, my feelings tell me otherwise and I'm going Black. It doesn't matter that I'm not....that would be to apply logic and Science. My position is irrefutable because to attack me on the basis of the colour of my skin would be racist.

[Bjauck]

One is perfectly normal word to describe a person. You're only looking for something transphobic and therefore you see it everywhere.
In my experience in that context, it is more unlikely that "one" would be used by someone in conversation who is totally accepting of the situation being discussed. However you cannot draw too many conclusions from a short forum post. Some of my forum posts have been totally misconstrued as a result of a poorly chosen word or phrase!

If someone said "we have one of those in our family" then that would be much more likely to signify dehumanisation or non-acceptance, in my experience.

[Bjauck]

...
Tomorrow I might declare myself Black, cos y'know Black Lives Matter. I'm a blue eyed European but doesn't matter, my feelings tell me otherwise and I'm going Black. It doesn't matter that I'm not....that would be to apply logic and Science. My position is irrefutable because to attack me on the basis of the colour of my skin would be racist.
Identity politics has been/ is necessary to overcome the centuries of actual victimisation. Discrimination still exists; no need for the paint brush!

However, personally, I do have reservations with relation to medical intervention on a biologically healthy body.

[RTM]

Much food for thought in Andrea Vance's article. I've always regarded her as one of our best, unbiased journalists.

Yes...she did great work with Peter Dunn from memory .
(or is my memory failing me ?...nope its not)
http://www.laudafinem.org/2013/06/18/the-peter-dunn-and-andrea-vance-affair/

[Zaphod]

Yes...she did great work with Peter Dunn from memory .
(or is my memory failing me ?...nope its not)
http://www.laudafinem.org/2013/06/18/the-peter-dunn-and-andrea-vance-affair/

Do you have a more, how shall I put this, respectable, relevant and accurate source of material?

The following quotes are taken from the link supplied to the article. I'll leave it up to the judgment of others as to whether they agree with me:

"Whats more upsetting is this broad (women) is not the prettiest thing in the world or even the News of the World."

"Fairfax are a low rent bunch of criminally retarded reporters that specialize in sensationalism, prostitution advertising shyte sheets, lies and more lies."

"Paul Thompson and his evil empire are also desperate to remain relevant in this changing media environment. So desperate that he promotes overt criminal offending by his staff. Go Paul! Anyone hear that Media Works is in receivership."

[iceman]

Yes...she did great work with Peter Dunn from memory .
(or is my memory failing me ?...nope its not)
http://www.laudafinem.org/2013/06/18/the-peter-dunn-and-andrea-vance-affair/

Low blow. Andrea Vance is definitely one of our better political journalists in NZ, a fast dying breed.

[jonu]

Looks like those lovely cuddly Waikato Mongrel Mob Kingdom that Labour was cuddling up to aren't quite so cuddly after all.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/live-35-arrested-900-charges-laid-by-nz-police-as-part-of-major-international-bust-mobsters-across-globe-tricked-by-fbi-trojan-horse-app/ar-AAKNLaq?ocid=msedgntp

The Police must be pulling their hair out over this government's naive stupidity.

[dobby41]

Looks like those lovely cuddly Waikato Mongrel Mob Kingdom that Labour was cuddling up to aren't quite so cuddly after all.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/live-35-arrested-900-charges-laid-by-nz-police-as-part-of-major-international-bust-mobsters-across-globe-tricked-by-fbi-trojan-horse-app/ar-AAKNLaq?ocid=msedgntp

The Police must be pulling their hair out over this government's naive stupidity.

Labour cuddling up? I thought it was Marama Davidson and the Chief Human Rights Commissioner? Neither are Labour!

The Waikato Mongrel Mob Kingdom have even further to go to convince anyone that they really have changed their spots.
The Police don't say exactly who was arrested (that I've seen anyway) but it flies in the face of the Mobs assertion that the top was trying to effect change and was let down, occasionally, by underlings.

[Panda-NZ-]

Pharmac will be pressured to fund this drug, $50k/y even though it shows no benefit:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/fda-approves-much-debated-alzheimers-drug-panned-by-experts/3B2F62KFQICOQ77UGHNW4IDFFA/

Need to look into the deeper causes of aging.

[jonu]

Labour cuddling up? I thought it was Marama Davidson and the Chief Human Rights Commissioner? Neither are Labour!

The Waikato Mongrel Mob Kingdom have even further to go to convince anyone that they really have changed their spots.
The Police don't say exactly who was arrested (that I've seen anyway) but it flies in the face of the Mobs assertion that the top was trying to effect change and was let down, occasionally, by underlings.

I may be mistaken but I thought Willy Jackson had regularly been meeting with gangsters as well.

[jonu]

Labour cuddling up? I thought it was Marama Davidson and the Chief Human Rights Commissioner? Neither are Labour!

The Waikato Mongrel Mob Kingdom have even further to go to convince anyone that they really have changed their spots.
The Police don't say exactly who was arrested (that I've seen anyway) but it flies in the face of the Mobs assertion that the top was trying to effect change and was let down, occasionally, by underlings.

I may be mistaken but I thought Willy Jackson had regularly been meeting with gangsters as well.

[jonu]

It's very difficult to have reasoned logical debate with people about "Trans" issues, largely because the whole topic is devoid of Reason and Logic.

First step of Identity Politics is "paint yourself as victim" and thereby dictate the narrative because anyone is howled down for even questioning.

Then, with "Trans" issues, the inverse of Reason and Science is applied, hence The Emperor's New Clothes result. A man can be a woman and vice versa....and you're not allowed to question it because someone might commit suicide.

Tomorrow I might declare myself Black, cos y'know Black Lives Matter. I'm a blue eyed European but doesn't matter, my feelings tell me otherwise and I'm going Black. It doesn't matter that I'm not....that would be to apply logic and Science. My position is irrefutable because to attack me on the basis of the colour of my skin would be racist.

Wonders never cease!

Some prominent sports people calling BS on biological males competing against biological females.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/huge-retrograde-step-kiwi-marathon-great-concerned-as-transgender-debate-grows/ar-AAKNW6s?ocid=msedgntp

I wonder if they too will be banned from speaking at Council owned venues for speaking the truth and common sense?

What's more will Grant Robertson and Ardern have sniff the political wind and realise their woke BS has reached its zenith?

[jonu]

It's very difficult to have reasoned logical debate with people about "Trans" issues, largely because the whole topic is devoid of Reason and Logic.

First step of Identity Politics is "paint yourself as victim" and thereby dictate the narrative because anyone is howled down for even questioning.

Then, with "Trans" issues, the inverse of Reason and Science is applied, hence The Emperor's New Clothes result. A man can be a woman and vice versa....and you're not allowed to question it because someone might commit suicide.

Tomorrow I might declare myself Black, cos y'know Black Lives Matter. I'm a blue eyed European but doesn't matter, my feelings tell me otherwise and I'm going Black. It doesn't matter that I'm not....that would be to apply logic and Science. My position is irrefutable because to attack me on the basis of the colour of my skin would be racist.

Wonders never cease!

Some prominent sports people calling BS on biological males competing against biological females.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/huge-retrograde-step-kiwi-marathon-great-concerned-as-transgender-debate-grows/ar-AAKNW6s?ocid=msedgntp

I wonder if they too will be banned from speaking at Council owned venues for speaking the truth and common sense?

What's more will Grant Robertson and Ardern sniff the political wind and realise their woke BS has reached its zenith?

[iceman]

Wonders never cease!

Some prominent sports people calling BS on biological males competing against biological females.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/huge-retrograde-step-kiwi-marathon-great-concerned-as-transgender-debate-grows/ar-AAKNW6s?ocid=msedgntp

I wonder if they too will be banned from speaking at Council owned venues for speaking the truth and common sense?

What's more will Grant Robertson and Ardern sniff the political wind and realise their woke BS has reached its zenith?

Yes and they have a very good and obvious case to argue. I wholeheartedly agree with them so signed their petition https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/petitions/document/PET_111568/petition-of-save-womens-sport-australasia-request-sport

[beetills]

I may be mistaken but I thought Willy Jackson had regularly been meeting with gangsters as well.
He did and it was at Parliament buildings

[jonu]

Yes and they have a very good and obvious case to argue. I wholeheartedly agree with them so signed their petition https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/petitions/document/PET_111568/petition-of-save-womens-sport-australasia-request-sport

Thanks iceman. I have too.

Also see link for Petition to ban Puberty Blockers for under 16s

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/petitions/document/PET_104148/petition-of-helen-houghton-ban-puberty-blockers-for-children

What is happening is appalling.

[dobby41]

I may be mistaken but I thought Willy Jackson had regularly been meeting with gangsters as well.

You are not mistaken - he met with them at a community trust - so? (As part of his Associate Justice portfolio.)
What do you think that means?

Act's Nicole McKee met with a Waikato Mongrel Mob Kingdom rep also - so does that mean they all support the Mob? Are they both 'cuddling up' to the Mob?

[jonu]

You are not mistaken - he met with them at a community trust - so? (As part of his Associate Justice portfolio.)
What do you think that means?

Act's Nicole McKee met with a Waikato Mongrel Mob Kingdom rep also - so does that mean they all support the Mob? Are they both 'cuddling up' to the Mob?

I think it means they are spectacularly naive.

As fo Act's Mckee....she may be in the same trap, or there to assess how much BS is being spread.

Not a good look for any of them.

[dobby41]

I think it means they are spectacularly naive.

As fo Act's Mckee....she may be in the same trap, or there to assess how much BS is being spread.

Not a good look for any of them.

You are suggesting that if they talk to someone they are automatically supporting them.
So, Labour and Act support the Mob?

I would draw the line at them 'supporting' the Mob rather than just meeting with them.
Best to find out what they are about first hand rather than naively believe the media.

[jonu]

You are suggesting that if they talk to someone they are automatically supporting them.
So, Labour and Act support the Mob?

I would draw the line at them 'supporting' the Mob rather than just meeting with them.
Best to find out what they are about first hand rather than naively believe the media.

It is no secret as to what the gangs are about. Maybe it is to the more naive of the population.

[peetter]

It is no secret as to what the gangs are about. Maybe it is to the more naive of the population.

I still don't get how gangs in NZ can be so public. That is completely alien to me coming from place where organized crime is very invisible.

[peetter]

Thanks iceman. I have too.

Also see link for Petition to ban Puberty Blockers for under 16s

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/petitions/document/PET_104148/petition-of-helen-houghton-ban-puberty-blockers-for-children

What is happening is appalling.

Signed both petitions. If this is not child abuse, I don't know what is.

[Panda-NZ-]

Wikipedia claims the effects are fully reversible.

Not that im an expert on the issue im sure helen houghton (of the new conservative party) researches it day and night and still gets it wrong.

[justakiwi]

It is not child abuse. I’m not going to try to explain it to you as clearly your mind is already made up.

On the other hand, if you really want to know what child abuse is, feel free to message me. As someone who worked for CYF (now the Ministry of Vulnerable Children) for 8+ years, I can enlighten you.


Signed both petitions. If this is not child abuse, I don't know what is.

[Balance]

It is not child abuse. I’m not going to try to explain it to you as clearly your mind is already made up.

On the other hand, if you really want to know what child abuse is, feel free to message me. As someone who worked for CYF (now the Ministry of Vulnerable Children) for 8+ years, I can enlighten you.

No wonder there are so many child abuse cases in NZ!

[Panda-NZ-]

Might have to crack on and solve child poverty then which this govt is trying to do after years of not much. :)

[peetter]

It is not child abuse. I’m not going to try to explain it to you as clearly your mind is already made up.


Yeah, sure it isn't. We forbid children from smoking and drinking because it can have negative effects on development, but blocking hormones is okay. Children aren't allowed to drive or have sex until certain age, because they are not able to make sound decisions, but it's okay to decide to block natural development from happening. And the last thing - it's definitely not parent's brainwashing these children in some of the cases, right?


Wikipedia claims the effects are fully reversible.


I'd love to know how you can reverse effects of not having normal hormone levels during most important development phase of your body.

[Panda-NZ-]

I'd love to know how you can reverse effects of not having normal hormone levels during most important development phase of your body.

Best to ask a doctor. The meaning of 'reversible' is pretty clear to me.

[peetter]

Best to ask a doctor. The meaning of 'reversible' is pretty clear to me.


Possible long-term side effects of puberty blockers


Lower bone density. To protect against this, we work to make sure every patient gets enough exercise, calcium and vitamin D, which can help keep bones healthy and strong. We also closely monitor patients’ bone density.
Delayed growth plate closure, leading to slightly taller adult height.
Less development of genital tissue, which may limit options for gender affirming surgery (https://www.stlouischildrens.org/conditions-treatments/transgender-center/gender-affirming-surgery) (bottom surgery) later in life.
Other possible long-term side effects that are not yet known.

Possible short-term side effects of puberty blockers


Headache, fatigue, insomnia and muscle aches.
Changes in weight, mood or breast tissue.
Spotting or irregular periods (in menstruating patients whose periods are not completely suppressed by puberty blockers).

[Panda-NZ-]

Jason Hoyte and news queen Hilary Barry are teaming up for TVNZ's Talkback

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/spy-jason-hoyte-and-news-queen-hilary-barry-are-teaming-up-for-tvnzs-talkback/KPJMN42E6LHLP4COZRSSXCOTE4/


The show, shot in the fly-on-the-wall mockumentary style of The Office, sees Hoyte play the win-at-all-costs Malcolm White who leads his newsroom as they fight to keep his flagship breakfast show at No 1 and save all of their careers.

"The show is really based on talkback hosts in general and the relentless pursuit of ratings." Hoyte, who hosted Radio Hauraki Drive with Leigh Hart for five years, says the OnDemand show is partly based on "some of our shenanigans during those years, and what goes on when the microphones are off".

[iceman]

Jason Hoyte and news queen Hilary Barry are teaming up for TVNZ's Talkback

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/spy-jason-hoyte-and-news-queen-hilary-barry-are-teaming-up-for-tvnzs-talkback/KPJMN42E6LHLP4COZRSSXCOTE4/

And the relevance of this breaking news to this thread is what ? That TVNZ has become the media division of Labour, or something else ? Just curious

[Zaphod]

Rose Byrne to play New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern in film based on Christchurch mosque shootings

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/125409871/rose-byrne-to-play-new-zealand-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-in-film-based-on-christchurch-mosque-shootings

[fungus pudding]

Rose Byrne to play New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern in film based on Christchurch mosque shootings

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/125409871/rose-byrne-to-play-new-zealand-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-in-film-based-on-christchurch-mosque-shootings

So what?
.

[Zaphod]

So what?
.

Perhaps someone is interested? Do you have anything to contribute?

[fungus pudding]

Perhaps someone is interested? Do you have anything to contribute?

No. Do you? What might someone be interested in? The actress chosen? The fact that someone is making a movie? This thread is titled Labour govt 2020 to 23. And just like Panda's post, prior to yours, there is nothing relavent to that in your post.

[Zaphod]

No. Do you? What might someone be interested in? The actress chosen? The fact that someone is making a movie? This thread is titled Labour govt 2020 to 23. And just like Panda's post, prior to yours, there is nothing relavent to that in your post.

Perhaps the fact that the PM is receiving such glowing accolades, and now has a movie depicting her role in this event? Great for Labour party publicity isn't it, and perfectly relevant to the thread. If you don't agree then just do what everyone else does for posts they feel are irrelevant to them and ignore the post.

[peetter]

Perhaps the fact that the PM is receiving such glowing accolades, and now has a movie depicting her role in this event? Great for Labour party publicity isn't it, and perfectly relevant to the thread. If you don't agree then just do what everyone else does for posts they feel are irrelevant to them and ignore the post.


The fact is all the work was done by police and emergency services and would happen exactly the same way if a monkey was PM. Jacinda only reaped the credit.

[BlackPeter]

The fact is all the work was done by police and emergency services and would happen exactly the same way if a monkey was PM. Jacinda only reaped the credit.

Pretty sad comment and quite off the mark. Is this who you are?

Clearly this is not about what the police and the emergency services did during and short after the attacks (which obviously has little to do with who is PM at current), but about the messages and communication of the PM in the aftermath of the disaster.

Just compare how e.g. sick bastards like e.g. Trump or Johnson used similar racist murders in their respective countries to further divide their people, while Jacinda Adern did a lot to acknowledge the atrocities, to unify the people and to help and reassure the families of the victims and the attacked population group.

While I am not in general a fan of her - her leadership after this terrible terror attack was second to none.

[peetter]

Pretty sad comment and quite off the mark. Is this who you are?

Clearly this is not about what the police and the emergency services did during and short after the attacks (which obviously has little to do with who is PM at current), but about the messages and communication of the PM in the aftermath of the disaster.

Just compare how e.g. sick bastards like e.g. Trump or Johnson used similar racist murders in their respective countries to further divide their people, while Jacinda Adern did a lot to acknowledge the atrocities, to unify the people and to help and reassure the families of the victims and the attacked population group.

While I am not in general a fan of her - her leadership after this terrible terror attack was second to none.


It is exactly what I think. I don't see it as unifying effort. All I see is publicity stunt. But even then I am not going to stoop so low as to call her "sick bastard" like you'd do.

[Panda-NZ-]

Pretty sad comment and quite off the mark. Is this who you are?

Clearly this is not about what the police and the emergency services did during and short after the attacks (which obviously has little to do with who is PM at current), but about the messages and communication of the PM in the aftermath of the disaster.

Just compare how e.g. sick bastards like e.g. Trump or Johnson used similar racist murders in their respective countries to further divide their people, while Jacinda Adern did a lot to acknowledge the atrocities, to unify the people and to help and reassure the families of the victims and the attacked population group.

While I am not in general a fan of her - her leadership after this terrible terror attack was second to none.


The crims Labour locked up will be sent to "Serco" probably.

National doesn't believe we can run anything even a rather basic prison.

[BlackPeter]

The fact is all the work was done by police and emergency services and would happen exactly the same way if a monkey was PM. Jacinda only reaped the credit.

Pretty sad comment and quite off the mark. Is this who you are?

Clearly this is not about what the police and the emergency services did during and short after the attacks (which obviously has little to do with who is PM at current), but about the messages and communication of the PM in the aftermath of the disaster.

Just compare how e.g. sick bastards like e.g. Trump or Johnson used similar racist murders in their respective countries to further divide their people, while Jacinda Adern did a lot to acknowledge the atrocities, to unify the people and to help and reassure the families of the victims and the attacked population group.

While I am not in general a fan of her - her leadership after this terrible terror attack was second to none.