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Zaphod
13-06-2021, 09:50 AM
The initial response was excellent especially from the front line workers who put their lives on the line, however elements of the gun control reform, censorship and aspects of the Christchurch Call are debatable. Have we really unified the nation through these events? I don't think so. But it's likely that Ardern will win another term on the back of this, the massive amount of unfinished reforms, and a weak opposition.

ynot
13-06-2021, 12:48 PM
The initial response was excellent especially from the front line workers who put their lives on the line, however elements of the gun control reform, censorship and aspects of the Christchurch Call are debatable. Have we really unified the nation through these events? I don't think so. But it's likely that Ardern will win another term on the back of this, the massive amount of unfinished reforms, and a weak opposition.

I suspect its likely she won't win another term based on Labours lack of delivery on numerous counts. Plenty of national voters apparantly protest voted in Labours favour last election, I don't think they will be in the mood to repeat that result next time.

justakiwi
13-06-2021, 12:59 PM
I voted Labour but am currently pretty disappointed about a few of their decisions. Having said that, unless something changes drastically between now and the next election, National have no chance of getting my vote. Which will present me with a bit of a conundrum.


I suspect its likely she won't win another term based on Labours lack of delivery on numerous counts. Plenty of national voters apparantly protest voted in Labours favour last election, I don't think they will be in the mood to repeat that result next time.

ynot
13-06-2021, 01:17 PM
I voted Labour but am currently pretty disappointed about a few of their decisions. Having said that, unless something changes drastically between now and the next election, National have no chance of getting my vote. Which will present me with a bit of a conundrum.
I would vote for the forementioned monkey, in fact any monkey before a voted for this socialist lot. Their true colours are now becoming quite apparant.

fungus pudding
13-06-2021, 01:20 PM
I suspect its likely she won't win another term based on Labours lack of delivery on numerous counts. Plenty of national voters apparantly protest voted in Labours favour last election, I don't think they will be in the mood to repeat that result next time.

She will certainly win a third term assuming she stands again. She may not have much beyond her charisma, but that alone is doing the trick for her - along with the fact National don't seem to be in a hurry to dump Collins, who will never make P.M.
A sufficient number of voters are blind to the fact Labour's ranks are bulging at the seams with dead-beats. They are dazzled by the sparkle and shine radiating from Jacinda's halo - and she does know how to polish it.
There is always the possibility of seeing her take an overseas post with the U.N. or similar. Although any such arrangement will be kept well under wraps until after the next election. If you see Deputy Kelvin replaced before the next election, you'll know what's coming.

fungus pudding
13-06-2021, 01:21 PM
I suspect its likely she won't win another term based on Labours lack of delivery on numerous counts. Plenty of national voters apparantly protest voted in Labours favour last election, I don't think they will be in the mood to repeat that result next time.

Deleted - I got two posts for the price of one.

justakiwi
13-06-2021, 01:34 PM
I am mostly happy with Labour. But a couple of their recent decisions have disappointed me.

I do not however, agree, with your sentiment that “anyone would be better than what we have got.” National have done nothing whatsoever to even remotely interest me, let alone impress me. Collins has done National no favours, and quite possibly, more than a bit of damage. They need to lose her before the next election, or they don’t stand a chance.




I would vote for the forementioned monkey, in fact any monkey before a voted for this socialist lot. Their true colours are now becoming quite apparant.

Zaphod
13-06-2021, 02:13 PM
I suspect its likely she won't win another term based on Labours lack of delivery on numerous counts. Plenty of national voters apparantly protest voted in Labours favour last election, I don't think they will be in the mood to repeat that result next time.

Yes I tend to agree with you. At this point I think it's highly likely Labour won't receive the votes they did last time, but on the back of "let's get this finished" (i.e. the numerous large-scale reforms, covid recovery etc.) they will probably receive enough to form a government in coalition with the Greens, which would most likely spell the end of their term.

It really depends upon how the next few years pan out, and I'm not confident that Labour can deliver on the proposed reforms within the current electoral term. What the voter will think of all this? Who knows.

Panda-NZ-
13-06-2021, 03:26 PM
I would vote for the forementioned monkey, in fact any monkey before a voted for this socialist lot. Their true colours are now becoming quite apparant.

Strong economy & corona free NZ doesn't mean anything does it..?

ynot
13-06-2021, 03:34 PM
Strong economy & corona free NZ doesn't mean anything does it..?
As I said, under the circumstances that fell into Labours lap last election, ie covid, the monkey could have achieved the same result.

ynot
13-06-2021, 03:35 PM
Strong economy & corona free NZ doesn't mean anything does it..?
As I said, under the circumstances that fell into Labours lap last election, ie covid, the monkey could have achieved the same result.

Panda-NZ-
13-06-2021, 03:39 PM
So judith & 'flat delivery' dave are worse than a pair of monkeys?

I don't think 45 mps are going anywhere fast next election. The only chance is a slightly larger majority. :)

Panda-NZ-
13-06-2021, 04:02 PM
Whoops... 43 seats rather than 45.

peetter
13-06-2021, 04:07 PM
I agree anyone in power would end up with the same result of covid. It's not hard to isolate remote island. People also shouldn't forget the initial reaction of government was very lax and delayed.

That said I don't think national can win next elections. It's just a party stuck in last century with absolutely nobody with charizma in leadership. Last 2 elections were popularity votes based on absolutely no program or results. It's the time of social media, likes and popularity contests and conservatives don't understand it yet and were not able to adjust. The only way they can win next elections is if they put a young woman with somewhat centrist policies in charge.

Overall I don't mind Labour in charge, because all said and done, they haven't changed mostly anything in last 4 years and I believe it's going to go the same way for the rest of this term and probably next as well.

Panda-NZ-
13-06-2021, 04:20 PM
Regional new zealand should consider supporting labour longer term.

Consistently lower NZD = 20% higher farm revenue. Far more of a gain than any slight environmental changes.

fungus pudding
13-06-2021, 04:53 PM
I agree anyone in power would end up with the same result of covid. It's not hard to isolate remote island. People also shouldn't forget the initial reaction of government was very lax and delayed.

That said I don't think national can win next elections. It's just a party stuck in last century with absolutely nobody with charizma in leadership. Last 2 elections were popularity votes based on absolutely no program or results. It's the time of social media, likes and popularity contests and conservatives don't understand it yet and were not able to adjust. The only way they can win next elections is if they put a young woman with somewhat centrist policies in charge.

Overall I don't mind Labour in charge, because all said and done, they haven't changed mostly anything in last 4 years and I believe it's going to go the same way for the rest of this term and probably next as well.

Unfortunately for NZ there is next to no commercial nous or experience in the Labour party - and it sure shows.

Panda-NZ-
13-06-2021, 05:00 PM
Pretty impressive economic results though for those with "no commercial experience".

In contrast to Seymour spending years at a canadian fringe lobby group then an MP for 10 years then drawing an approx 200k taxpayer salary while claiming to support limited government.

ynot
13-06-2021, 05:16 PM
Pretty impressive economic results though for those with "no commercial experience".

I would not call throwing large amounts of money around at problems a pretty impressive economic result.
Again any monkey could do that. Where is the focus to stimulate business, we need to get the economy firing on 8 cylinder's to fund this lolly scramble.

Panda-NZ-
13-06-2021, 05:18 PM
We have full employment, so no need to do anything more.
Anything more is a waste unless you like paying double/triple input prices due to the chronic supply and labour shortages.

Lower debt than australia, same as South Korea.

Panda-NZ-
13-06-2021, 05:33 PM
Our books are so good in fact there there's room for another spree before the next election when all the supply issues & shortages have been resolved.

Though I'd hope the focus is on lifting incomes per person, not endless growth and migration.

ynot
13-06-2021, 08:07 PM
Unfortunately for NZ there is next to no commercial nous or experience in the Labour party - and it sure shows.
Classic case in point, New $3000 ute tax. Lets kick the small business owner who needs a ute to make a living. Never mind there is no electric vehicle capable of doing the tradie work. Lets kick the small business man. Hang on, isn't he the guy that is productive, paying plenty of tax to keep this economy alive.

ynot
13-06-2021, 08:07 PM
Unfortunately for NZ there is next to no commercial nous or experience in the Labour party - and it sure shows.
Classic case in point, New $3000 ute tax. Lets kick the small business owner who needs a ute to make a living. Never mind there is no electric vehicle capable of doing the tradie work. Lets kick the small business man. Hang on, isn't he the guy that is productive, paying plenty of tax to keep this economy alive.

Panda-NZ-
13-06-2021, 08:39 PM
There's a second hand market.

No low income person is going to be buying a new petrol car.

ynot
13-06-2021, 08:56 PM
There's a second hand market.

No low income person is going to be buying a new petrol car.
who said he was a low income earner ?

peetter
13-06-2021, 10:54 PM
There's a second hand market.

No low income person is going to be buying a new petrol car.


Isn't it poetic. Low income person will buy a cheap old ICE car and continue paying petrol taxes while rich person will buy himself new tesla with 8k discount and no taxes on running it.

iceman
14-06-2021, 05:20 AM
There's a second hand market.

No low income person is going to be buying a new petrol car.

Even less low income people will be buying a new EV, subsidy or no subsidy. A stated goal by the PM is to reduce inequality. This policy does exactly the opposite.

ynot
14-06-2021, 06:28 AM
This govt could not run the proverbial "p... up
in a brewery" ! Unbelievable !

fungus pudding
14-06-2021, 09:47 AM
This govt could not run the proverbial "p... up
in a brewery" ! Unbelievable !

Oh yes they could! It's the brewery itself they couldn't run.

ynot
14-06-2021, 10:18 AM
I did actually experience a real p... up in a brewery in the late 90's when the Heineken line was completed at DB. That was a fun afternoon although once again the couple of hundred tradies attending paid the price the following morning.

winner69
14-06-2021, 10:33 AM
Buying a Lotto ticket so one can feed the family takes on a new meaning in Taranaki

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/444669/taranaki-food-charity-introduces-lottery-system-to-manage-demand

BlackPeter
14-06-2021, 10:46 AM
Oh yes they could! It's the brewery itself they couldn't run.

Well, yes - while they promise crates of free beer for everybody, their committee to set up a committee to establish a bottle cleaning process unfortunately drank too much beer to preserve the good stuff from spilling due to lack of clean bottles :):

Our problem as country is just that while Labour has nice ideas and big promises it doesn't know how to implement, National finds it hard to hire decent people (and I mean that literally). Sexters, staff abusers, leakers, bullies, infighters and real weirdos - and yes, i know that Labour has at least one of these subjects as well in a prominent position, but this is a different subject.

Instead of hiring decent honest people who stand out in their communities for the right reasons National does seem hell bound to find a John Key look alike, no matter their abilities.

So - sure, lets beat up Labour, it is not hard to find their weaknesses, but lets remember as well that afterwards we still need somebody to run the country, and at this stage I'd prefer its not the weirdo party on the centre right.

BlackPeter
14-06-2021, 10:49 AM
duplication due to webserver playing up again - deleted

Panda-NZ-
14-06-2021, 07:40 PM
The best leaders in the world never had commercial experience:

Merkel, Shinzo Abe and Singapore's PM (who was born into the role) are examples.
Sir Micheal Cullen great economic leadership despite being an academic.

The alternative is Donald Trump and john key I suppose. "meh".

jonu
15-06-2021, 09:26 AM
If anyone thinks Identity Politics (embraced by Labour, and the lifeblood of the Greens) and Post-Modern Marxism aren't intertwined, have a read of this.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/school-strike-4-climate-auckland-declares-itself-racist-and-disbands/ar-AAL2tCY?ocid=msedgntp

I have no idea whether Strike 4 is racist or not, but this article would appear to embody the mantra that "the left eats itself." You can never be woke enough. Today's Progressive becomes by definition tomorrow's oppressor.

jonu
15-06-2021, 10:04 AM
I'm picking at some point this term, the media pack are going to go feral on Ardern. Only one or two of the old dogs in the Press Gallery have called BS from early in her reign. The rest were fawning over her from the minute she replaced Little prior the 2017 election. MSM have a lot to answer for in this respect, however it is very interesting to see the ballooning numbers of "Communications" staff, many of whom no doubt, have media training.

It's not been a great week for Ardern.

Firstly, the movie, about which I accept her statements. I think most people do, however unfortunately for her, it will leave a stain. It's not fair, but that's the optics, and optics is what Ardern trades on. Certainly not delivery.

Secondly, the Toyota EV Utes comment. Sloppy and flippant.

Thirdly, the biography just published which she says she has been duped by. I'm inclined to believe her on this as well, but the politics by photo op she feeds on is catching up with her.

Overexposed and under delivering will be her undoing.

ynot
15-06-2021, 10:09 AM
In a sane world you would like to think so but today ..... I'm not so sure.

fungus pudding
15-06-2021, 10:35 AM
It's not been a great week for Ardern.

Firstly, the movie, about which I accept her statements. I think most people do, however unfortunately for her, it will leave a stain. It's not fair, but that's the optics, and optics is what Ardern trades on. Certainly not delivery.

Secondly, the Toyota EV Utes comment. Sloppy and flippant.

Thirdly, the biography just published which she says she has been duped by. I'm inclined to believe her on this as well, but the politics by photo op she feeds on is catching up with her.

Overexposed and under delivering will be her undoing.

Certainly under-delivering will do damage, but I'm not so sure about overexposure. No doubt you've heard the common adage 'all publicity is good publicity'. There's a modicum of truth in it.

Blue Skies
15-06-2021, 12:21 PM
It's not been a great week for Ardern.

Firstly, the movie, about which I accept her statements. I think most people do, however unfortunately for her, it will leave a stain. It's not fair, but that's the optics, and optics is what Ardern trades on. Certainly not delivery.

Secondly, the Toyota EV Utes comment. Sloppy and flippant.

Thirdly, the biography just published which she says she has been duped by. I'm inclined to believe her on this as well, but the politics by photo op she feeds on is catching up with her.

Overexposed and under delivering will be her undoing.



Cant see how the controversy over the movie leaves a stain on Adern, once again it reminded everyone what an extraordinary & inspiring job she did in responding to that tragedy, and was widely seen as a lesson to other world leaders in how to respond to such terrible events.

Secondly, most people interpret the push back from Toyota NZ is all about avoiding a sudden steep drop off in sales & keeping sales of their existing stock of both new & 2nd hand petrol & diesel models going through 2021 & 22 rather than see buyers holding off for coming EV Utes. If you were thinking about replacing a ute in the next year or two, wouldn't you wait now?
See article about EV Utes being released in Australia including next year a Hyundai EV ute in direct completion to Toyota Hylux.

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/top-12-electric-utes-coming-to-oz-121284/

Cant comment on the so called biography.

Re govt under delivering & steeply rising inequality & homelessness due to rampant house prices with all it serious consequences, can't argue with that, but very much doubt the absolute shambles the Nat's are at moment could do any better.

Zaphod
15-06-2021, 12:38 PM
Cant see how the controversy over the movie leaves a stain on Adern, once again it reminded everyone what an extraordinary & inspiring job she did in responding to that tragedy, and was widely seen as a lesson to other world leaders in how to respond to such terrible events.

She did an excellent job , but extraordinary and inspiring is stretching it to an emotive maximum.



Secondly, most people interpret the push back from Toyota NZ is all about avoiding a sudden steep drop off in sales & keeping sales of their existing stock of both new & 2nd hand petrol & diesel models going through 2021 & 22 rather than see buyers holding off for coming EV Utes. If you were thinking about replacing a ute in the next year or two, wouldn't you wait now?

She claimed that Toyota would be releasing an EV ute, when in fact they will not be. Nothing to do with a drop off in sales or rather, leases for the most part.

jonu
15-06-2021, 12:51 PM
She did an excellent job , but extraordinary and inspiring is stretching it to an emotive maximum.



She claimed that Toyota would be releasing an EV ute, when in fact they will not be. Nothing to do with a drop off in sales or rather, leases for the most part.

The "mud sticks" principle applies with the movie. I didn't say it was fair, but I think people will associate it with her eagerness to fill our media (except where she is asked anything like tough questions).

Regarding Toyota, her false claim was used to get people to hold off buying a new ute, which could be very damaging to Toyota. It would appear she is willing to throw Toyota under the bus to gain traction for yet another ill thought out policy.

Blue Skies
15-06-2021, 01:02 PM
She did an excellent job , but extraordinary and inspiring is stretching it to an emotive maximum.



She claimed that Toyota would be releasing an EV ute, when in fact they will not be. Nothing to do with a drop off in sales or rather, leases for the most part.


Curiously Toyota NZ CEO Neeraj Lala is quoted in this April /2021 article in 'Driven NZ' as saying "We hope to have a Hilux hybrid enter the market before the end of next year"
He commented with emissons restrictions tightening internationally, they're expecting every Toyota model to get some electrification including commercials such as Utes.
If Hyundai release an EV ute next year in direct completion to the Hylux, Toyota will not want to be left behind.

https://www.driven.co.nz/news/it-s-happening-toyota-is-serious-about-building-an-electric-ute/

I wouldn't blame Adern if Toyota's putting out contradictory info, but as said I think its more to do with getting rid of existing petrol & diesel stock.

jonu
15-06-2021, 01:13 PM
Curiously Toyota NZ CEO Neeraj Lala is quoted in this April /2021 article in 'Driven NZ' as saying "We hope to have a Hilux hybrid enter the market before the end of next year"
He commented with emissons restrictions tightening internationally, they're expecting every Toyota model to get some electrification including commercials such as Utes.
If Hyundai release an EV ute next year in direct completion to the Hylux, Toyota will not want to be left behind.

https://www.driven.co.nz/news/it-s-happening-toyota-is-serious-about-building-an-electric-ute/

I wouldn't blame Adern if Toyota's putting out contradictory info, but as said I think its more to do with getting rid of existing petrol & diesel stock.

Don't you think it would have been wise for the government to speak directly to manufacturers about supply before committing to a policy?

Further to that, where is the electricity and charging capacity going to come from? Have seen little discussion around that.

Zaphod
15-06-2021, 01:14 PM
Curiously Toyota NZ CEO Neeraj Lala is quoted in this April /2021 article in 'Driven NZ' as saying "We hope to have a Hilux hybrid enter the market before the end of next year"
He commented with emissons restrictions tightening internationally, they're expecting every Toyota model to get some electrification including commercials such as Utes.
If Hyundai release an EV ute next year in direct completion to the Hylux, Toyota will not want to be left behind.

https://www.driven.co.nz/news/it-s-happening-toyota-is-serious-about-building-an-electric-ute/

I wouldn't blame Adern if Toyota's putting out contradictory info, but as said I think its more to do with getting rid of existing petrol & diesel stock.


A Hilux Hybrid is not an EV. The statement by Ardern was very clear about Toyota releasing an EV Ute. It's not about Toyota deliberately releasing contradictory information, it's about Adern making a simple mistake. Like everyone, she can make a mistake.

Panda-NZ-
15-06-2021, 01:15 PM
People often have homes with built in power plugs included.

jonu
15-06-2021, 01:18 PM
People often have homes with built in power plugs included.

Not much help when you are stuck on the Auckland motorway. Or miles from home....which is kinda the reason for having a vehicle. And the electricity?

peetter
15-06-2021, 01:24 PM
If anyone thinks Identity Politics (embraced by Labour, and the lifeblood of the Greens) and Post-Modern Marxism aren't intertwined, have a read of this.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/school-strike-4-climate-auckland-declares-itself-racist-and-disbands/ar-AAL2tCY?ocid=msedgntp

I have no idea whether Strike 4 is racist or not, but this article would appear to embody the mantra that "the left eats itself." You can never be woke enough. Today's Progressive becomes by definition tomorrow's oppressor.

I can't stop laughing after reading this article.

jonu
15-06-2021, 01:30 PM
I can't stop laughing after reading this article.

Sadly, it's no laughing matter. These idiots are intent on ripping Western Democracy apart. I fear the world is in for a very rough time over the next 10 years. Either the woke mob will get their way (disastrous) or there will be an extreme right wing pendulum swing to defeat them. That's not likely to end well either.

BlackPeter
15-06-2021, 01:42 PM
Sadly, it's no laughing matter. These idiots are intent on ripping Western Democracy apart. I fear the world is in for a very rough time over the next 10 years. Either the woke mob will get their way (disastrous) or there will be an extreme right wing pendulum swing to defeat them. That's not likely to end well either.

No worries - while their are no doubt a lot of still unfermented ideas brewing on the left side of the political spectrum, first - they do support democracy and second they hardly manage to achieve anything at all.

What I am afraid of are the right wing populists. While they are inept as well to protect their country (the virus apparently loves them and makes right wing populist controlled countries much more sicker than others), their ineptness tends to tune in nicely into the waves of the mob. Think the hysteric crowds around Trump if you are not sure what I mean. Right wing populism (under Hitler, Mussolini and Franco) brought the world to its knees before - we need to make sure we don't get there again.

peetter
15-06-2021, 02:02 PM
Sadly, it's no laughing matter. These idiots are intent on ripping Western Democracy apart. I fear the world is in for a very rough time over the next 10 years. Either the woke mob will get their way (disastrous) or there will be an extreme right wing pendulum swing to defeat them. That's not likely to end well either.

I am convinced this will only end with civil wars across first world. Just look at France, where military already said they'll take over if the government doesn't deal with the crisis caused by migration.


No worries - while their are no doubt a lot of still unfermented ideas brewing on the left side of the political spectrum, first - they do support democracy and second they hardly manage to achieve anything at all.

What I am afraid of are the right wing populists. While they are inept as well to protect their country (the virus apparently loves them and makes right wing populist controlled countries much more sicker than others), their ineptness tends to tune in nicely into the waves of the mob. Think the hysteric crowds around Trump if you are not sure what I mean. Right wing populism (under Hitler, Mussolini and Franco) brought the world to its knees before - we need to make sure we don't get there again.

No, left is not supporting democracy. Definitely not the current left in first world. Also mobs... like BLM riots right? And Hitler's party was leftist. I mean it's already happening, rewriting books, renaming goods etc.

Panda-NZ-
15-06-2021, 02:24 PM
Sadly, it's no laughing matter. These idiots are intent on ripping Western Democracy apart. I fear the world is in for a very rough time over the next 10 years. Either the woke mob will get their way (disastrous) or there will be an extreme right wing pendulum swing to defeat them. That's not likely to end well either.

Well we had a referendum on asset sales and that was ignored.

Though the one on the flag wasn't thankfully.
I can't think of more of an assault than trying to remove the brithish flag.

Blue Skies
15-06-2021, 02:57 PM
If anyone thinks Identity Politics (embraced by Labour, and the lifeblood of the Greens) and Post-Modern Marxism aren't intertwined, have a read of this.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/school-strike-4-climate-auckland-declares-itself-racist-and-disbands/ar-AAL2tCY?ocid=msedgntp

I have no idea whether Strike 4 is racist or not, but this article would appear to embody the mantra that "the left eats itself." You can never be woke enough. Today's Progressive becomes by definition tomorrow's oppressor.



Ahhh, the earnestness of youth, isn't it appropriate & always been the case for that age group to be idealistic & want to shake things up a bit before they hit the grinding realties of of parenthood, debt & mortgages and mind numbing routine of work.
I seem to remember some fella writing these lyrics years ago ".....come mothers & fathers throughout the land, and don't criticize what you can't understand, your sons and your daughters are beyond your command, your old road is rapidly ageing, please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a' changing..."

Anyway, a bit of background to that story was there are a lot of Pacifica & Maori families living in low lying South Auckland which is likely to be first affected by climate change, plus needing to travel long distances to get to work & unable to afford either to move house or more expensive green friendly transport options which are often (unintentionally) disregarded by privileged idealistic young people from higher socioeconomic groups intent on rapid progress on policies around climate change.
Since Maori & Pacifica groups are most at risk & unfairly least able to but first to feel the burden of new Green policies, but were largely absent from representational at Auckland Strike 4' it was felt they should be given a stronger voice.

jonu
15-06-2021, 03:10 PM
Ahhh, the earnestness of youth, isn't it appropriate & always been the case for that age group to be idealistic & want to shake things up a bit before they hit the grinding realties of of parenthood, debt & mortgages and mind numbing routine of work.
I seem to remember some fella writing these lyrics years ago ".....come mothers & fathers throughout the land, and don't criticize what you can't understand, your sons and your daughters are beyond your command, your old road is rapidly ageing, please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a' changing..."

Anyway, a bit of background to that story was there are a lot of Pacifica & Maori families living in low lying South Auckland which is likely to be first affected by climate change, plus needing to travel long distances to get to work & unable to afford either to move house or more expensive green friendly transport options which are often (unintentionally) disregarded by privileged idealistic young people from higher socioeconomic groups intent on rapid progress on policies around climate change.
Since Maori & Pacifica groups are most at risk & unfairly least able to but first to feel the burden of new Green policies, but were largely absent from representational at Auckland Strike 4' it was felt they should be given a stronger voice.

The problem is, the woke mob have been emerging from the universities for 10 years or so and are now beginning to land positions of responsibility, including government and classrooms where they can do damage. The Post-Modern Marxist's "Slow march through the institutions" is bearing fruit.

BlackPeter
15-06-2021, 04:15 PM
I am convinced this will only end with civil wars across first world. Just look at France, where military already said they'll take over if the government doesn't deal with the crisis caused by migration.



No, left is not supporting democracy. Definitely not the current left in first world. Also mobs... like BLM riots right? And Hitler's party was leftist. I mean it's already happening, rewriting books, renaming goods etc.

Interesting statement, but not true. Have a look at this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/05/right-needs-stop-falsely-claiming-that-nazis-were-socialists/

You realize that Hitlers party (the Nazis - i.e. so called National Socialists) incarcerated and often killed hundreds of thousand of Socialists? That the Nazis have been funded by the rich industrialists and supported by the people who wanted the German emperor back? Not a left wing party. Just populist, right wing and evil.

Hitler attracted the same kind of people like Trump (and any other populist despot) later on - and he used the same methods - making up big lies and finding people dumb enough to believe them.

Of course, if you consider e.g. Trump, Johnson and Bolsonaro as "left wing", than yes, this is what Hitler was as well :p;

iceman
15-06-2021, 04:33 PM
Well we had a referendum on asset sales and that was ignored.

Though the one on the flag wasn't thankfully.
I can't think of more of an assault than trying to remove the brithish flag.

Quite to the contrary. We had a general election where the PM was clear that he would partially sell a few SEOs. He won the election and did exactly what he campaigned on. Very much unlike the current lot implementing all sorts of stuff they never mentioned during the election campaign a few months ago.

peetter
15-06-2021, 04:35 PM
Wrong thread

jonu
15-06-2021, 04:44 PM
Interesting statement, but not true. Have a look at this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/05/right-needs-stop-falsely-claiming-that-nazis-were-socialists/

You realize that Hitlers party (the Nazis - i.e. so called National Socialists) incarcerated and often killed hundreds of thousand of Socialists? That the Nazis have been funded by the rich industrialists and supported by the people who wanted the German emperor back? Not a left wing party. Just populist, right wing and evil.

Hitler attracted the same kind of people like Trump (and any other populist despot) later on - and he used the same methods - making up big lies and finding people dumb enough to believe them.

Of course, if you consider e.g. Trump, Johnson and Bolsonaro as "left wing", than yes, this is what Hitler was as well :p;

Hitler and Stalin's methods were very similar, were they not?

Hitler started out with what appeared to be a Socialist agenda, with massive spending on infrastructure and efforts to get the German economy under control. From there he went full on fascist.

dobby41
15-06-2021, 04:59 PM
Not much help when you are stuck on the Auckland motorway. Or miles from home....which is kinda the reason for having a vehicle. And the electricity?

Of course, if you have a petrol car and run out on the motorway having a petrol station 2km away doesn't help a lot either.

ynot
15-06-2021, 05:01 PM
Of course, if you have a petrol car and run out on the motorway having a petrol station 2km away doesn't help a lot either.
Range anxiety is not synonymous with EVs for no reason

dobby41
15-06-2021, 05:04 PM
Range anxiety is not synonymous with EVs for no reason

Range is only a problem if you need it - I wonder how many kms the average car does in the average day?
I suspect not enough to challenge the range of an EV.

dobby41
15-06-2021, 05:06 PM
double-up again - the site is getting better but not right yet

jonu
15-06-2021, 05:18 PM
Range is only a problem if you need it - I wonder how many kms the average car does in the average day?
I suspect not enough to challenge the range of an EV.

Face it dobby41, there isn't anywhere near enough charging capacity to meet the need of a rapid change to EVs. And probably not enough generation capacity either.

BlackPeter
15-06-2021, 05:34 PM
Face it dobby41, there isn't anywhere near enough charging capacity to meet the need of a rapid change to EVs. And probably not enough generation capacity either.

You might be surprised to learn that drivers of petrol cars still in the early 1920íes still had to find a pharmacy (which used and sold the stuff in small amounts as cleaning agent) if they wanted to re-fill.

Mid of the 20íes did the major US cities have already a pretty well working petrol station network - and yes, many operators of horse relays stations did convert to selling petrol and the drugstores could refocus again on the medical needs of their clients ..

Are you saying that our petrol stations are less agile than the horse relay stations 100 years ago?

And yes, I am sure we are able as well to produce the required electricity :): Didn't Tiwai point plan to go anyway? Lucky us we found a new taker for all this power, isn't it?

No worries ...

BlackPeter
15-06-2021, 05:34 PM
The usual problem - I think our server does not need more intelligence, but more speed :):

Duplicate removed.

ynot
15-06-2021, 05:37 PM
Face it dobby41, there isn't anywhere near enough charging capacity to meet the need of a rapid change to EVs. And probably not enough generation capacity either.

Chances are dobbys not about to face anything related to reality.
Wokeism is in full flight, facts don't matter, you do not need to look any further his leaders exadurations to understand the agenda.

Blue Skies
15-06-2021, 05:40 PM
Face it dobby41, there isn't anywhere near enough charging capacity to meet the need of a rapid change to EVs. And probably not enough generation capacity either.


No offence intended but reminds me slightly of the scepticism towards the first automobiles replacing the horse. " What's the matter with you...you're crazy if you ever think this fool contraption will replace the horse," said the banker to one of America's earliest & most famous auto makers. And when he went to Goodrich the bicycle tyre maker to ask them to make something bigger than their biggest bicycle tyre, met with similar scepticism, well we can make it but you'll have to pay for the moulds because there won't be a call for tyres for horseless carriages.

jonu
15-06-2021, 05:48 PM
No offence intended but reminds me slightly of the scepticism towards the first automobiles replacing the horse. " What's the matter with you...you're crazy if you ever think this fool contraption will replace the horse," said the banker to one of America's earliest & most famous auto makers. And when he went to Goodrich the bicycle tyre maker to ask them to make something bigger than their biggest bicycle tyre, met with similar scepticism, well we can make it but you'll have to pay for the moulds because there won't be a call for tyres for horseless carriages.

Except I'm not trying to claim EVs won't replace internal combustion. I'm just saying we aren't in a position to do it quickly. Personally I think in 10 years time it will be hydrogen that is driving the discussion.

jonu
15-06-2021, 05:58 PM
Well, well, well, Labour's hypocrisy around dodgy fundraising exposed.

https://mailchi.mp/democracyproject/political-roundup-cash-for-access-to-politicians-continues?e=89627acd5b

Rob Salmond uses Prostitutional imagery against the Nats and then jumps into bed himself. Both as grubby as each other....only it's Labour posing to have the high ground.

Blue Skies
15-06-2021, 06:01 PM
Except I'm not trying to claim EVs won't replace internal combustion. I'm just saying we aren't in a position to do it quickly. Personally I think in 10 years time it will be hydrogen that is driving the discussion.


Yes fair call, you made valid points & agree with you about hydrogen showing promise for future.

jonu
15-06-2021, 07:03 PM
Further to the trans issues aired earlier, I reckon this clip sums up the stupidity and unfairness of biological men competing in biological women's sport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ-bO2GFJdg

Particularly enlightening was the comment that around approx 300 boys in high school in the US could beat the world's fastest woman over 400m. The quotes from the NZ physiology professor should be noted as well.

Are we at Peak Stupid yet? Not if the woke mob have their way.

ynot
15-06-2021, 07:36 PM
Further to the trans issues aired earlier, I reckon this clip sums up the stupidity and unfairness of biological men competing in biological women's sport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ-bO2GFJdg

Particularly enlightening was the comment that around approx 300 boys in high school in the US could beat the world's fastest woman over 400m. The quotes from the NZ physiology professor should be noted as well.

Are we at Peak Stupid yet? Not if the woke mob have their way.

The depths of stupidity wokeism delivers is almost beyond comprehension.
It is shaking my confidence in mankind's intellect, thats for real.

justakiwi
15-06-2021, 07:50 PM
The fact that people found the need to create a ridiculous word like “wokeism” to criticise and mock any opinion or view they disagree with, is what shakes my confidence in mankind’s intellect. The world is going to hell in a hand basket, but it’s not because of your so-called “wokeism.”




The depths of stupidity wokeism delivers is almost beyond comprehension.
It is shaking my confidence in mankind's intellect, thats for real.

jonu
15-06-2021, 08:09 PM
The fact that people found the need to create a ridiculous word like “wokeism” to criticise and mock any opinion or view they disagree with, is what shakes my confidence in mankind’s intellect. The world is going to hell in a hand basket, but it’s not because of your so-called “wokeism.”

The term "woke" originated from the wokesters themselves.

Problematically, to be woke, you have to be racist to be non-racist, sexist to be non sexist, and exclusive to be inclusive. Hence the State of NY is considering rolling back it's antidiscrimination laws, hard fought for through the Civil Rights movement, so that the State can discriminate. Go figure. Do you reckon that will end well?

To be woke is to concentrate on the "identity" of the person and that those identities need equal representation. It also in a somewhat bigoted manner, assumes that all persons of that identity think alike. In other words a Black representative can somehow represent the views of all Blacks, cos y'know, those Black folks all think alike. Or Asian, or female, or trans, LGBTQI and how many other letters in that alphabet soup you wish to name.

It is "Peak Stupid" which ever way you look at it.

justakiwi
15-06-2021, 08:26 PM
Well maybe if we, as a human race, actually demonstrated humanity, and treated each other as equals, there would be no need for people to create “movements” to support specific groups of people. We are an obnoxious species. We are, for the most part, self-absorbed and self-centred, and we do a really crappy job of caring about each other. In this day and age one would be forgiven for thinking we all might have “got it” by now. But nope. We are still living with prejudice and judgment in all areas of human life, and we never seem to learn from our mistakes or from history.

That ​is “peak stupid” every way you look at it.

peetter
15-06-2021, 08:32 PM
Well maybe if we, as a human race, actually demonstrated humanity, and treated each other as equals, there would be no need for people to create “movements” to support specific groups of people. We are an obnoxious species. We are, for the most part, self-absorbed and self-centred, and we do a really crappy job of caring about each other. In this day and age one would be forgiven for thinking we all might have “got it” by now. But nope. We are still living with prejudice and judgment in all areas of human life, and we never seem to learn from our mistakes or from history.

That ​is “peak stupid” every way you look at it.


Problem is, we are not all equal. Some are better and some are worth less than nothing. That's why in our society that provide equality of oportunity, some people succeed and some fail.

jonu
15-06-2021, 08:37 PM
Well maybe if we, as a human race, actually demonstrated humanity, and treated each other as equals, there would be no need for people to create “movements” to support specific groups of people. We are an obnoxious species. We are, for the most part, self-absorbed and self-centred, and we do a really crappy job of caring about each other. In this day and age one would be forgiven for thinking we all might have “got it” by now. But nope. We are still living with prejudice and judgment in all areas of human life, and we never seem to learn from our mistakes or from history.

That ​is “peak stupid” every way you look at it.

I think you just made a strong argument for Christianity and the fallen state of Human Nature.

justakiwi
15-06-2021, 09:17 PM
My comments are not even remotely based on any religious beliefs. I am not a religious person. I am just a human being who believes everyone on this earth is born as an equal to everyone else. Regardless of race, skin colour, gender, sexuality or anything else. Everyone deserves to be treated with kindness and respect. Everyone deserves to be treated fairly, in all areas of their life, and to be free of prejudice or judgment based on any of the above.

There is no “one size fits all” in life. There never has been. The world would be a pretty boring place if we we’re all the same. Nature (or God if you’re so inclined) created plenty of variety within the human race. Variety is the spice of life. Life would be pretty damned boring if we were all exactly the same.




I think you just made a strong argument for Christianity and the fallen state of Human Nature.

justakiwi
15-06-2021, 09:18 PM
Double post for greater emphasis ;)

Balance
15-06-2021, 10:57 PM
An indictment on the sorry state of transparency & openness in NZ today :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/125433724/two-words-and-an-emoji-what-caused-six-months-of-bureaucratic-stonewalling

I have zero doubt that both MBIE and Police HQ thought I would just go quietly away, and their high-handed response would go unchallenged.

They probably rely on that, and it probably works in many cases. It’s so ridiculous that the Office of the Ombudsman should have to investigate and rule on such a straightforward and minor matter.

But thank goodness it does. By contrast to the government agencies, the Office of the Ombudsman has been unfailingly helpful, polite and prompt.

At the end of this, what was in the note doesn’t matter. What does matter is how this process shows that some agencies treat the OIA – and requestors – with disdain.

If such a trivial matter is kept under wraps, what else is?

Blue Skies
15-06-2021, 11:54 PM
An indictment on the sorry state of transparency & openness in NZ today :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/125433724/two-words-and-an-emoji-what-caused-six-months-of-bureaucratic-stonewalling

I have zero doubt that both MBIE and Police HQ thought I would just go quietly away, and their high-handed response would go unchallenged.

They probably rely on that, and it probably works in many cases. It’s so ridiculous that the Office of the Ombudsman should have to investigate and rule on such a straightforward and minor matter.

But thank goodness it does. By contrast to the government agencies, the Office of the Ombudsman has been unfailingly helpful, polite and prompt.

At the end of this, what was in the note doesn’t matter. What does matter is how this process shows that some agencies treat the OIA – and requestors – with disdain.

If such a trivial matter is kept under wraps, what else is?


Agreed, extremely concerning, esp when Labour promised a few years ago it would bring in a refreshing new era of openness and transparency in govt.

iceman
16-06-2021, 05:15 AM
Agreed, extremely concerning, esp when Labour promised a few years ago it would bring in a refreshing new era of openness and transparency in govt.

It is absolutely nuts what has happened here. With such blatant, time wasting and very costly delays on a matter that should have been completed in 10 minutes, heads should roll. There never seem to be any consequences for bureaucrats failing to do their jobs so they just repeat it again & again.

iceman
16-06-2021, 05:15 AM
Double post

Balance
16-06-2021, 07:04 AM
It is absolutely nuts what has happened here. With such blatant, time wasting and very costly delays on a matter that should have been completed in 10 minutes, heads should roll. There never seem to be any consequences for bureaucrats failing to do their jobs so they just repeat it again & again.

Monkey sees, monkey does.

What this government does, the bureaucrats follow.

Bjauck
16-06-2021, 07:06 AM
I am convinced this will only end with civil wars across first world. Just look at France, where military already said they'll take over if the government doesn't deal with the crisis caused by migration. Another General De Gaulle? French democracy seems based on people taking to the streets to protest. Les gilets jaunes is just the latest iteration. Is the current situation worse than the 1960's? We are up to the Fifth Republic so far. When will the Sixth Republic arrive?


No, left is not supporting democracy. Definitely not the current left in first world. Also mobs... like BLM riots right? And Hitler's party was leftist. I mean it's already happening, rewriting books, renaming goods etc. Extreme left and extreme right do share the same playbook, whether storming the Bastille or storming The Capitol. In crises, the moderate left and right share common ground too.

ynot
16-06-2021, 08:23 AM
Problem is, we are not all equal. Some are better and some are worth less than nothing. That's why in our society that provide equality of oportunity, some people succeed and some fail.
Absolutely. We can not all represent NZ as an All Black for example. Lets apologise to all "want to be" All Blacks for not being accepted for the team.

winner69
16-06-2021, 08:25 AM
How much will Dalton screw us over to keep the America’s Cup in NZ ....maybe $200m plus

PM says ‘we want it to be hosted here’

fungus pudding
16-06-2021, 08:36 AM
How much will Dalton screw us over to keep the America’s Cup in NZ ....maybe $200m plus


Don't know - but he sure knows how to negotiate!

peetter
16-06-2021, 08:49 AM
Absolutely. We can not all represent NZ as an All Black for example. Lets apologise to all "want to be" All Blacks for not being accepted for the team.

I don't know, I might try it as a woman.

fungus pudding
16-06-2021, 08:54 AM
I don't know, I might try it as a woman.

Ambiguous. Will that involve a sex change, or are you already one?

peetter
16-06-2021, 08:58 AM
Ambiguous. Will that involve a sex change, or are you already one?

I am a man ;). It was a bad joke :)

fungus pudding
16-06-2021, 10:10 AM
I am a man ;). It was a bad joke :)

In that case, I would suggest you don't try it! :scared:

peetter
16-06-2021, 10:31 AM
In that case, I would suggest you don't try it! :scared:

:D sometimes it seems good in the moment

peetter
16-06-2021, 01:02 PM
With the current rate, 100% of population should be vaccinated in about 90 weeks.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-vaccine-tracker-how-many-kiwis-have-been-vaccinated-and-how-do-we-compare-with-the-rest-of-the-world/ENMCOHM5QW6W3UN6MRMCOQKO2U/

dobby41
16-06-2021, 01:18 PM
With the current rate, 100% of population should be vaccinated in about 90 weeks.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-vaccine-tracker-how-many-kiwis-have-been-vaccinated-and-how-do-we-compare-with-the-rest-of-the-world/ENMCOHM5QW6W3UN6MRMCOQKO2U/

That's good progress - a month or so ago people were saying 5 years.
Just goes to show that people can't read or understand a plan that increases the rate as time goes on.

fungus pudding
16-06-2021, 01:20 PM
That's good progress - a month or so ago people were saying 5 years.
Just goes to show that people can't read or understand a plan that increases the rate as time goes on.

So by next week they should be finished this afternoon then.

dobby41
16-06-2021, 01:20 PM
Face it dobby41, there isn't anywhere near enough charging capacity to meet the need of a rapid change to EVs. And probably not enough generation capacity either.

You may not have seen this - it is premium content.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/green-power-surge-expected-in-plans-for-wind-and-solar-electricity-generation/OPIIRQYS45M35JKQZ4FC4K6BGU/
In short, generation is increasing as it is required with smaller plants (wind generation being keen) and Transpower is bullish on "distributed generation".

Panda-NZ-
16-06-2021, 01:30 PM
Residential power demand was stagnant for more than a decade, now its not.
Clear incentives to bring more power online + tiwai closing soon.

dobby41
16-06-2021, 01:47 PM
So by next week they should be finished this afternoon then.

Sarcasim?
Not the plan that they have exposed.
It is odd that people extrapolate the existing rate without understanding the planned increase in rate (which they have followed so far).
Bloomfield said today (at the 1o'clock) that they had additional providers to come onstream in late July.
It would have been pointless vaccinating at a faster rate when we weren't going to get the vaccine to use.

fungus pudding
16-06-2021, 03:48 PM
Residential power demand was stagnant for more than a decade, now its not.
Clear incentives to bring more power online + tiwai closing soon.

How much solar and wind power waiting to hit the market? According to some scientist speaking on radio earlier this week, there is all sorts of wind and solar options close to being operational that we will have to find ways to export it. And don't bet on Tiwai closing soon. They're haven't been operating at Bluff for all these years without learning something from the name.

dobby41
16-06-2021, 03:57 PM
How much solar and wind power waiting to hit the market? According to some scientist speaking on radio earlier this week, there is all sorts of wind and solar options close to being operational that we will have to find ways to export it. And don't bet on Tiwai closing soon. They're haven't been operating at Bluff for all these years without learning something from the name.

From the paywalled article I posted above
"Meanwhile, Meridian Energy expects to start building its $385m Harapaki wind farm in Hawke's Bay in the second half of this year. Harapaki will be New Zealand's second-largest wind farm - after Trustpower's Tararua site - with 41 turbines
generating enough to power more than 70,000 average households.

And Mercury's Turitea wind farm, near Palmerston North, is under construction. The project, expected to generate 470 GWh a year, is expected to be the country's third largest."

fungus pudding
16-06-2021, 04:11 PM
From the paywalled article I posted above
"Meanwhile, Meridian Energy expects to start building its $385m Harapaki wind farm in Hawke's Bay in the second half of this year. Harapaki will be New Zealand's second-largest wind farm - after Trustpower's Tararua site - with 41 turbines
generating enough to power more than 70,000 average households.

And Mercury's Turitea wind farm, near Palmerston North, is under construction. The project, expected to generate 470 GWh a year, is expected to be the country's third largest."

And add in several massive solar-power schemes planned to hit the market.

winner69
17-06-2021, 09:36 AM
Seems Govt thinks most Kiwis earn more than they really need to live today and should be putting heaps more aside for their 'golden years'

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/govt-investigates-increasing-kiwisaver-contribution-rate-to-10pc-but-who-should-pay/UPLDMWLWDGWO3QOGQJVKENEQ2I/

jonu
17-06-2021, 09:58 AM
Not content with State subsidy to the tune of tens of millions of Mainstream Media (for what expected payback you might well wonder), Ardern's government is also placing sneaky ads with NZME for 300k more.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300334848/government-paying-25000-a-month-for-secret-sponsored-media-stories-without-disclaimer

Do you reckon NZME will be a little hesitant to criticize Labour after this lot? Grubby, grubby, grubby. Ardern's clear and transparent obscured for all to see.

justakiwi
17-06-2021, 10:01 AM
The people they are targeting with this, are probably the ones who can least afford to pay more than 3%. At a pinch they might manage 5%, but 10 is unrealistic.

My personal views have changed significantly since I got back into investing. I contribute the minimum 3% to my Balanced KS, and do my own investing alongside it. A much better strategy for me, than contributing more to KS.

Article is paywalled so can’t see the details, but if they are proposing 10% as the new minimum contribution, it will encourage new employees on low incomes, to opt out altogether.


Seems Govt thinks most Kiwis earn more than they really need to live today and should be putting heaps more aside for their 'golden years'

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/govt-investigates-increasing-kiwisaver-contribution-rate-to-10pc-but-who-should-pay/UPLDMWLWDGWO3QOGQJVKENEQ2I/

Zaphod
17-06-2021, 10:06 AM
Seems Govt thinks most Kiwis earn more than they really need to live today and should be putting heaps more aside for their 'golden years'

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/govt-investigates-increasing-kiwisaver-contribution-rate-to-10pc-but-who-should-pay/UPLDMWLWDGWO3QOGQJVKENEQ2I/

No doubt the employers will bear the bulk of the cost. I suppose this will be on top of the unemployment insurance? We have a few interesting years ahead.

Zaphod
17-06-2021, 10:13 AM
The people they are targeting with this, are probably the ones who can least afford to pay more than 3%. At a pinch they might manage 5%, but 10 is unrealistic.

My personal views have changed significantly since I got back into investing. I contribute the minimum 3% to my Balanced KS, and do my own investing alongside it. A much better strategy for me, than contributing more to KS.

Article is paywalled so can’t see the details, but if they are proposing 10% as the new minimum contribution, it will encourage new employees on low incomes, to opt out altogether.

Yes, a new minimum, but according to the article they could step it up slowly but regularly. You're right, it will hurt those who can least afford it the most, but I suppose they view further increases in the minimum wage as partly offsetting that.

Ayesha Scott, a finance professor at AUT is quoted in the article stating that contributions should be made compulsory for employers, regardless of whether [low income] earners choose to contribute or not.

Panda-NZ-
17-06-2021, 12:13 PM
They could put back in the $1k Sir Bill took away from new kiwisaver entrants and raise it to $2k.

peetter
17-06-2021, 01:35 PM
Yes, a new minimum, but according to the article they could step it up slowly but regularly. You're right, it will hurt those who can least afford it the most, but I suppose they view further increases in the minimum wage as partly offsetting that.

Ayesha Scott, a finance professor at AUT is quoted in the article stating that contributions should be made compulsory for employers, regardless of whether [low income] earners choose to contribute or not.


First step before increasing contributions should be removing income tax from Employer contribution and kiwisaver gains. Then make Employer match the contributions IF the employee chooses to contribute more.

But this being Labour government, anything that would affect tax revenue is a big nono. That's why forcing increases is what they want to do, because it increases tax revenue, not because it prepares people for retirement.

Panda-NZ-
17-06-2021, 02:07 PM
An idea which would further undermine what's left of our progressive income tax system.

peetter
17-06-2021, 02:40 PM
An idea which would further undermine what's left of our progressive income tax system.

I don't see a problem, anyone saving for their own retirement most likely will not be a burden on society when retired. I don't get why you lefties hate an idea of people getting their hard earned money and think it's okay to take as much as possible.

Panda-NZ-
17-06-2021, 02:46 PM
Well the govt is the only reason you have a job right now due to their timely intervention to stop a collapse.

Tax cuts have a cost and it has to come from somewhere.

peetter
17-06-2021, 03:13 PM
That's a bold statement saying that we have jobs only thanks to government.

I think looking at how government spends money and cutting costs should be first way to cover the "cost of tax cuts". Nobody will convince me that government needs to take 50+% of my money to run. Yet every year more and more taxes are introduced and less and less gets done with it...

Panda-NZ-
17-06-2021, 03:15 PM
Our govt is probably the most efficient in the world.

Panda-NZ-
17-06-2021, 03:38 PM
To summarise pete (and some others) point of view:

Number one in corona response and economic recovery is nothing to do with the govt becuase it "was easy".
Though building houses is entirely the fault of Jacinda for some reason.

peetter
17-06-2021, 04:52 PM
To summarise pete (and some others) point of view:

Number one in corona response and economic recovery is nothing to do with the govt becuase it "was easy".
Though building houses is entirely the fault of Jacinda for some reason.

I think closing borders on an island at the end of the world is hardly a response that requires cheering. My brother lives on Sunshine coast and they had less lockdowns than NZ and still are corona free.

As far as economy goes, the recovery is despite the government. There wasn't one policy from Labour you could attribute to economic recovery. Money printing around the world and low rates are the drivers.

And yes - government, which was voted in 2017 elections on basis of solving housing crisis, and didn't do anything about housing for 4 years should be blamed for the lack of action. Funny how you conveniently forget the promise of 100 000 new affordable homes being built.

iceman
17-06-2021, 04:59 PM
I think closing borders on an island at the end of the world is hardly a response that requires cheering. My brother lives on Sunshine coast and they had less lockdowns than NZ and still are corona free.

As far as economy goes, the recovery is despite the government. There wasn't one policy from Labour you could attribute to economic recovery. Money printing around the world and low rates are the drivers.

And yes - government, which was voted in 2017 elections on basis of solving housing crisis, and didn't do anything about housing for 4 years should be blamed for the lack of action. Funny how you conveniently forget the promise of 100 000 new affordable homes being built.

And zero policy and no ideas on how to get us out of the border lockdowns !!

Panda-NZ-
17-06-2021, 05:01 PM
The NZ voters simply disagree with you and delivered a historic win.

for the LOTR fans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UEPDlXJqq8&t=130s

ynot
17-06-2021, 05:06 PM
The NZ voters simply disagree with you and delivered a historic win.

for the LOTR fans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UEPDlXJqq8&t=130s

Only because they were in covid shock. Pavlov 101. Fear weakens the masses. Keep them frightened, nanny state will protect you.

Panda-NZ-
17-06-2021, 05:18 PM
They were on track to winning well before then.

peetter
17-06-2021, 05:41 PM
The NZ voters simply disagree with you and delivered a historic win.

for the LOTR fans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UEPDlXJqq8&t=130s



I think you wrongly assume I mind that Labour won. I'd criticize anyone for raising taxes and having stupid policies. I never understood why people think 2 party system is good.

You on the other side come around like a non questioning Labour fanboy who doesn't have opinion but blindly follows and applauds anything.

Panda-NZ-
17-06-2021, 05:42 PM
Simply reflecting what all the international visitors say here which is what a wonderful job she's done. :)

jonu
17-06-2021, 06:01 PM
They were on track to winning well before then.

No they absolutely weren't. Their non-delivery was catching up with them. Ardern's media & Communications skills and a non-stop propaganda campaign at the 1pm Covid briefings, coupled one must assume, with a first tranche 50 million dollar bribe to Mainstream Media (with a follow up no less), won them the "Covid Election".

Panda-NZ-
17-06-2021, 06:28 PM
In contrast to those lovely blue brochures with an "economic plan".
Its not environmentally friendly to send those things everywhere compared to a press conference.

jonu
17-06-2021, 07:11 PM
In contrast to those lovely glossy blue brochures talking about an "economic plan"...

It not environmentally friendly to send those things everywhere compared to a simple press conference.

Press conferences attended by the recipients of a 50 million dollar bribe. Well done Cindy. Propaganda 101.

Panda-NZ-
17-06-2021, 10:10 PM
A tax should be put on unwanted mailers, all those trees gone and blue ink causing soil damage.

National needs to do more in social media I think.

peat
18-06-2021, 09:57 AM
From Precinct announcement (they're investing in WLG CBD commercial properties )

The Wellington market continues to show strong demand for prime grade office, underpinned by an increase in the public sector workforce

winner69
18-06-2021, 10:09 AM
NZ GDP down 2.3% for the full year to March -- no worries as Robertson says we still doing better than Australia (economy wise)

fungus pudding
18-06-2021, 10:13 AM
NZ GDP down 2.3% for the full year to March -- no worries as Robertson says we still doing better than Australia (economy wise)

No worries though, cos latest quarter grabbed a bit back. We are supposed to be elated.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2021/06/new-zealand-gdp-up-1-6-percent-in-latest-figures.html

Panda-NZ-
18-06-2021, 01:02 PM
It's following on from the stable growth since 2017, since a time before corona did exist.

Aussie was near recession pre-corona so its a good thing they are recovering strongly now.

Panda-NZ-
18-06-2021, 09:19 PM
Journalists are routinely arrested in Australia.

We should all remember the freedoms we enjoy to speak our minds unlike in aussie and russia.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/jun/05/abc-offices-raided-by-australian-federal-police
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/apr/15/high-court-rules-afp-warrant-for-raid-on-news-corp-journalists-home-was-invalid

I believe they have given lots of subsidies to News corp too .

Zaphod
18-06-2021, 10:17 PM
Journalists are routinely arrested in Australia.

We should all remember the freedoms we enjoy to speak our minds unlike in aussie and russia.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/jun/05/abc-offices-raided-by-australian-federal-police
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/apr/15/high-court-rules-afp-warrant-for-raid-on-news-corp-journalists-home-was-invalid

I believe they have given lots of subsidies to News corp even though they would do their work for free.

Winston? Is that you? Walk into the light.

Zaphod
18-06-2021, 10:18 PM
Journalists are routinely arrested in Australia.

We should all remember the freedoms we enjoy to speak our minds unlike in aussie and russia.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/jun/05/abc-offices-raided-by-australian-federal-police
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/apr/15/high-court-rules-afp-warrant-for-raid-on-news-corp-journalists-home-was-invalid

I believe they have given lots of subsidies to News corp even though they would do their work for free.

Winston? Is that you? Walk into the light.

Panda-NZ-
18-06-2021, 10:50 PM
On the issue of press freedoms it is highly relevant to do comparisons with other countries.

Panda-NZ-
19-06-2021, 05:18 AM
I actually like Australia and think a more fundamental union with them is inevitable.. Though they have a bit to learn from us on ethics and good conduct. Maybe its a wise idea to wait for climate change to do its work and coal exports to become obsolete so we can gain some more generous terms from them. ;)

Panda-NZ-
19-06-2021, 07:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B4jPt2m0Y4

Labour could do with the experience I think.
Working on a cure to aging would be a good icebreaker policy for them.

dobby41
21-06-2021, 08:54 AM
I actually like Australia and think a more fundamental union with them is inevitable. Though they have a bit to learn from us on ethics and good conduct in the world. I think simply waiting for climate change to do its work and coal exports to become obselete so we can gain some generous terms from them. ;)

They would treat us as lower than Tasmania, and that is pretty low.

justakiwi
21-06-2021, 09:19 AM
You really don’t understand the concept or process of ageing at all. Every species on this planet goes through a cycle of life, which ultimately ends in death. As much as I too would rather not die, this is how it is, and how it is meant to be. Living in a world of 30 year olds, who will never have children or grandchildren, who will never die - just rinse and repeat their everyday life, forever … sounds downright scary to me.

Out of curiosity, how old are you?



Working on a cure to aging …...

JBmurc
21-06-2021, 11:14 AM
Press conferences attended by the recipients of a 50 million dollar bribe. Well done Cindy. Propaganda 101.

“The fundamental principle of all propaganda,” was “the repetition of effective arguments”; but those arguments must not be too refined – there was no point in seeking to convert the intellectuals. For intellectuals would never be converted and would anyway always yield to the stronger, “and this will always be the man in the street”.* Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible, and appeal to emotions and instincts, not to the intellect. Truth was unimportant-----J Goebbels

J Ardern

“Unite for Recovery”
'NZ has the most strict border control regime in the world"
"“Capitalism has failed our people"
'No new Taxes in our term"

Panda-NZ-
22-06-2021, 12:58 AM
Out of curiosity, how old are you?

It's simply costing the world too much.
Plus its not overly ethical to stand by and provide no effective solution.

Both health and welfare would go down, then education when there's less need for kids.

jonu
22-06-2021, 08:57 AM
It's costing the world too much.
Plus its not overly ethical to stand by and provide no effective solution.

Both health and welfare would go down, then education when there's less need for kids.
Efficiency benefits like that are rather large.

So your "effective solution" is to look after ourselves so well that we don't need to look after anyone else. Is there any wonder Marxism always leads to murder, genocide and mayhem?

BlackPeter
22-06-2021, 09:19 AM
So your "effective solution" is to look after ourselves so well that we don't need to look after anyone else. Is there any wonder Marxism always leads to murder, genocide and mayhem?

Marxism? Sure, most undemocratic systems tend to behave that way (including some dictatorships who called themselves marxist), but what you are describing was and is typical for fascism and proto fascism (including Trumpism).

Maybe you should learn about history before embarrassing yourself.

jonu
22-06-2021, 09:21 AM
The rod Ardern has made for her own back is beginning to lash.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/a-separate-m%C4%81ori-acc-is-unnecessary-pm-jacinda-ardern/ar-AALhLnJ?ocid=msedgntp

The expectations she has given to Maori in her efforts to sideline the Maori Party and hog the Maori seats, are beginning to paint her into a corner of her own making. It's only just getting a head of steam. This is where playing "Identity Politics" will lead you. Down the rabbit hole of racism and discrimination.

By the way, I was royally screwed over by ACC but I don't fit the demographic her woke policies are directed at.

jonu
22-06-2021, 09:28 AM
Marxism? Sure, most undemocratic systems tend to behave that way (including some dictatorships who called themselves marxist), but what you are describing was and is typical for fascism and proto fascism (including Trumpism).

Maybe you should learn about history before embarrassing yourself.

Embarrass myself? I'm still waiting for your list of successful Communist regimes on the US Presidential thread. You know, where you defended the slaughterer Lenin and Communism in general. Too embarrassed to return to it perhaps?

You are a "bad faith" argument proponent BlackPeter. This has been demonstrated to you by another poster.

fungus pudding
22-06-2021, 09:41 AM
The rod Ardern has made for her own back is beginning to lash.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/a-separate-m%C4%81ori-acc-is-unnecessary-pm-jacinda-ardern/ar-AALhLnJ?ocid=msedgntp

The expectations she has given to Maori in her efforts to sideline the Maori Party and hog the Maori seats, are beginning to paint her into a corner of her own making. It's only just getting a head of steam. This is where playing "Identity Politics" will lead you. Down the rabbit hole of racism and discrimination.

By the way, I was royally screwed over by ACC but I don't fit the demographic her woke policies are directed at.

'They are us' except when they're not.

BlackPeter
22-06-2021, 11:21 AM
Embarrass myself? I'm still waiting for your list of successful Communist regimes on the US Presidential thread. You know, where you defended the slaughterer Lenin and Communism in general. Too embarrassed to return to it perhaps?

You are a "bad faith" argument proponent BlackPeter. This has been demonstrated to you by another poster.

Such a short post and still full of untruths. Is it you, Donald?

Show me one post where I mentioned (or defended) Lenin.

Show me one post where I said communism is a successful system.

I am saying that you don't understand communism. Most dictatorships are happy to suppress and kill people and to commit genocide. Has nothing to do with the tag they like to give themselves.

Fascists are killing people and committing genocides (Franco, Mussolini, Hitler), various religious regimes have killed people and committed genocides throughout history. Christians (look at the European history of e.g. the 30 year war or the time of the crusades), Moslems (e.g. Iran, Ottoman empire) as well as Budhists (Myanmar) used to kill and are killing and committing genocides and yes, communist (or so called communist) dictatorships did that as well (e.g. Sowjetunion as well as China, though - China is these days communist only by name).

Suppressing and killing people has not more to do with the ideas of communism as with religious faith. Only the fascists use it as part of their ideology.

Anyway - it was a mistake to take you so quick off the ignore list, you are now back where you belong ... no need to respond, unless you want to apologize for spreading porkies.

jonu
22-06-2021, 11:41 AM
Such a short post and still full of untruths. Is it you, Donald?

Show me one post where I mentioned (or defended) Lenin.

Show me one post where I said communism is a successful system.

I am saying that you don't understand communism. Most dictatorships are happy to suppress and kill people and to commit genocide. Has nothing to do with the tag they like to give themselves.

Fascists are killing people and committing genocides (Franco, Mussolini, Hitler), various religious regimes are killed people and committed genocides throughout history. Christians (look at the European history of e.g. the 30 year war or the time of the crusades), Moslems (e.g. Iran, Ottoman empire) as well as Budhists (Myanmar) used to kill and are killing and committing genocides and yes, communists (or so called communist) dictatorships did that as well (e.g. Sowjetunion as well as China, though - China is these days communist only by name).

Suppressing and killing people has not more to do with the ideas of communism as with religious faith. Only the fascists use it as part of their ideology.

Anyway - it was a mistake to take you so quick off the ignore list, you are now back where you belong ... no need to respond, unless you want to apologize for spreading porkies.

Oh I'll reply alright.

Let's begin with post #4392 on the US Presidential thread

Incredibly stupid and ignorant post.

Sure - communist regimes all across the world inflected lots of pain on their own and other people, but this was not due to the teachings of Marx and Lenin, but because bad and evil people used their philosophy to abuse power. What e.g. Stalin and Mao did to their (and other) people had not more to do with communism than what crusades, witch hunts, inquisition and child abuse have to do with the Christian faith. Sure - communism does not work, this is true, but its teachings are not worse than e.g. the teachings of the Church.

Interesting side note - Stalin was educated in a seminar for catholic orthodox priests. Who was responsible for his murderous regime - communism or the Christian church?

Any extremists are bad, no question about that - but I can't see what e.g. was wrong with the democratically elected communist government in Chile which the US government choose to removed by supporting a undemocratic and cruel regime of the right wing crook Pinochet?

The enemy are not the communists, the enemy are extremists and bad people - and you find them in all undemocratic political movements as well as in most religions.




My emphasis in Bold. And you're telling me I don't understand Communism. The 20th Century taught us where Communism leads. A descent into moral and societal chaos, brutality, genocide and absolute State control.

Panda-NZ-
22-06-2021, 11:54 AM
So your "effective solution" is to look after ourselves so well that we don't need to look after anyone else.

What are you on about now?

It's about removing welfare, and people actually wanting that, because its no longer needed for a biological issue.

It could reduce taxes down to 10% but I don't want that at all because I'm generally social democrat as the alternatives produce disaster every decade or so without an effective intervention.

peetter
22-06-2021, 11:56 AM
Oh I'll reply alright.

Let's begin with post #4392 on the US Presidential thread

Incredibly stupid and ignorant post.

Sure - communist regimes all across the world inflected lots of pain on their own and other people, but this was not due to the teachings of Marx and Lenin, but because bad and evil people used their philosophy to abuse power. What e.g. Stalin and Mao did to their (and other) people had not more to do with communism than what crusades, witch hunts, inquisition and child abuse have to do with the Christian faith. Sure - communism does not work, this is true, but its teachings are not worse than e.g. the teachings of the Church.

Interesting side note - Stalin was educated in a seminar for catholic orthodox priests. Who was responsible for his murderous regime - communism or the Christian church?

Any extremists are bad, no question about that - but I can't see what e.g. was wrong with the democratically elected communist government in Chile which the US government choose to removed by supporting a undemocratic and cruel regime of the right wing crook Pinochet?

The enemy are not the communists, the enemy are extremists and bad people - and you find them in all undemocratic political movements as well as in most religions.




My emphasis in Bold. And you're telling me I don't understand Communism. The 20th Century taught us where Communism leads. A descent into moral and societal chaos, brutality, genocide and absolute State control.

I think it's pointless really to explain to him. He defended communism in so many post claiming we don't understand it and he does. You know, if he did it, it would definitely work...

Just look at his posts, it's hard to find some without mentioning Republicans in US, Trump or Boris Johnson. There are clearly some issues there.

jonu
22-06-2021, 12:02 PM
I think it's pointless really to explain to him. He defended communism in so many post claiming we don't understand it and he does. You know, if he did it, it would definitely work...

Just look at his posts, it's hard to find some without mentioning Republicans in US, Trump or Boris Johnson. There are clearly some issues there.

Am inclined to agree. BP certainly has an unhealthy Trump fixation.

"...if he did it, it would definitely work". Bang on! BP is exactly the sort of person you don't want to be anywhere near running anything.

BlackPeter
22-06-2021, 12:08 PM
Oh I'll reply alright.

Let's begin with post #4392 on the US Presidential thread

Incredibly stupid and ignorant post.

Sure - communist regimes all across the world inflected lots of pain on their own and other people, but this was not due to the teachings of Marx and Lenin, but because bad and evil people used their philosophy to abuse power. What e.g. Stalin and Mao did to their (and other) people had not more to do with communism than what crusades, witch hunts, inquisition and child abuse have to do with the Christian faith. Sure - communism does not work, this is true, but its teachings are not worse than e.g. the teachings of the Church.

Interesting side note - Stalin was educated in a seminar for catholic orthodox priests. Who was responsible for his murderous regime - communism or the Christian church?

Any extremists are bad, no question about that - but I can't see what e.g. was wrong with the democratically elected communist government in Chile which the US government choose to removed by supporting a undemocratic and cruel regime of the right wing crook Pinochet?

The enemy are not the communists, the enemy are extremists and bad people - and you find them in all undemocratic political movements as well as in most religions.




My emphasis in Bold. And you're telling me I don't understand Communism. The 20th Century taught us where Communism leads. A descent into moral and societal chaos, brutality, genocide and absolute State control.

OK - so I mentioned Lenin. Fair enough. However - you said in you post I "defended the slaughterer Lenin".

I didn't. I mentioned his teachings, which btw - have little to do with some of his actions.

You are spreading porkies again.

Donald, go home. You missed your chance to apologize :p;

FTG
22-06-2021, 12:11 PM
BP & Jonu,

From an observers perspective it appears that you are both throwing around "labels" with a little too much free abandon. Potentially indicating that there is scope to deepen your real understanding on what these labels actually mean. On a positive note, you both seemed to be interested and engaged with the political sphere (well, at least in a theoretical manner). So something to consider; perhaps you are looking at the "same thing" but have have quite a different understanding on what you think you are seeing?

So.....let me ask you. When you use the labels Communism & Fascism, what is the actual definition of those words that you are referring to. i.e What actually is Communism?
Once you clearly articulate here what these mean to you, then I suspect it's going to reveal to yourselves and everyone else here one of the reasons why you are going hammer & tongs at each other!

oh, and if you can try and keep your definitions succinct & rational, rather than waffly & passive agressive towards each other that would be great. :-)

jonu
22-06-2021, 12:12 PM
OK - so I mentioned Lenin. Fair enough. However - you said in you post I "defended the slaughterer Lenin".

I didn't. I mentioned his teachings, which btw - have little to do with some of his actions.

You are spreading porkies again.

Donald, go home. You missed your chance to apologize :p;

Hole dug deeper....and a Trump reference!

Panda-NZ-
22-06-2021, 12:17 PM
BP & Jonu

oh, and if you can try and keep your definitions succinct & rational, rather than waffly & passive agressive towards each other that would be great. :-)

He's one of those trump fans who can only see every issue in black and white and having rather low iq.. #sad. :(

justakiwi
22-06-2021, 12:17 PM
Your thought patterns on human life are really disturbing. Do you ever stop to think about how incredibly boring our lives would be if everyone on the planet was 30 forever? Do you ever stop to think about how you would all need to work forever in order to survive? Do you ever stop to think about what it would be like to never cuddle a baby, hear them laugh or see them smile for the first time? Do you ever stop to think that our elderly people are of huge value and have much to contribute to our society?

As I asked before - how old are you? I’m guessing you’re in your early 30’s, and afraid of ageing/dying. You seem to have formed your own inaccurate world view that human development and ageing are illnesses that can be prevented, and that elderly people would all choose to “be cured” and live forever.

You are living in a delusion my friend.



It's about removing welfare, and people actually wanting that, because its no longer needed for a biological issue.

Panda-NZ-
22-06-2021, 12:24 PM
Your thought patterns on human life are really disturbing. Do you ever stop to think about how incredibly boring our lives would be if everyone on the planet was 30 forever? Do you ever stop to think about how you would all need to work forever in order to survive? Do you ever stop to think about what it would be like to never cuddle a baby, hear them laugh or see them smile for the first time? Do you ever stop to think that our elderly people are of huge value and have much to contribute to our society?

As I asked before - how old are you? I’m guessing you’re in your early 30’s, and afraid of ageing/dying. You seem to have formed your own inaccurate world view that human development and ageing are illnesses that can be prevented, and that elderly people would all choose to “be cured” and live forever.

You are living in a delusion my friend.

We live in a world of choice and you are free not to take the medicine.

Trying to deny it from others though, is inhumane and expensive for the taxpayer.

Panda-NZ-
22-06-2021, 12:26 PM
The only delusion is that technology never advances ..

It will be found within 100 years so it should be done when there is a signficant financial issue which exists.

jonu
22-06-2021, 12:41 PM
BP & Jonu,

From an observers perspective it appears that you are both throwing around "labels" with a little too much free abandon. Potentially indicating that there is scope to deepen your real understanding on what these labels actually mean. On a positive note, you both seemed to be interested and engaged with the political sphere (well, at least in a theoretical manner). So something to consider; perhaps you are looking at the "same thing" but have have quite a different understanding on what you think you are seeing?

So.....let me ask you. When you use the labels Communism & Fascism, what is the actual definition of those words that you are referring to. i.e What actually is Communism?
Once you clearly articulate here what these mean to you, then I suspect it's going to reveal to yourselves and everyone else here one of the reasons why you are going hammer & tongs at each other!

oh, and if you can try and keep your definitions succinct & rational, rather than waffly & passive agressive towards each other that would be great. :-)

Apologies for cross pollinating threads, I didn't see another way to pin BP down. He calls posts sickening, ignorant and stupid, delivers cheap shots and then says he puts you on ignore.

His defense of Marx and Lenin should be challenged by anyone who values their freedom. Marx advocated violent revolution. Lenin carried it out. Communism, by its very nature, requires oppression. There is no such thing as Pure Communism. It will lead to disaster. I challenged BP to demonstrate where it hasn't. He ran and then threw rocks.

I can't be arsed engaging with him any further, but I will defend myself. I reckon he'll eventually get sucked up in the vacuum created by his own echo chamber. Maybe he'll be stuck in there for eternity with Trump! (irony of yet another Trump reference noted!)

justakiwi
22-06-2021, 12:48 PM
You are not getting it. Once everyone on the planet reaches your preferred age of 30, that’s it. There is then a finite number of people on the planet, that will never change. You will all simply be stuck in limbo forever. Sure, you might all be in perfect health, but as I said, you will spend forever rinsing and repeating every day of your miserable lives. You will need to work forever in order to live/survive. There will be no joy, nothing to strive for, no children, no future to look forward to other than more of the same. Day after day.

WTF is the point of living like that? Really … what is​ the point?

PS: clearly you don’t want to reveal your age, which I find interesting.




It will be found within 100 years so it should be done when there is a massive financial issue.

Panda-NZ-
22-06-2021, 12:52 PM
" Stuck in limbo? "....

There is such a thing as suicide if you don't want to exist anymore. It's an option chosen today by too many people sadly.

Though I'm against euthansaia and have empathy with the elderly. :)
Their wellbeing sould be provided for by society until a cure is found.

Which reflects their level of disability and not being able to work for rather long periods.

justakiwi
22-06-2021, 01:04 PM
At the risk of being sent to Siberia …. you’re a lunatic.


Stuck in limbo?
There is such a thing as suicide if you don’t want to exist anymore

Baa_Baa
22-06-2021, 01:08 PM
At the risk of being sent to Siberia …. you’re a lunatic.

See you in Siberia, lunatic is too kind. These are the single most extraordinarily weird statements I've ever come across in an online forum, just amazing anyone would even think like this, mind boggling, doesn't compute. Best on ignore again, it does my head in.

777
22-06-2021, 01:10 PM
There is such a thing as suicide if you don't want to exist anymore.


You should be banned for this statement.

Panda-NZ-
22-06-2021, 01:11 PM
Do you refuse hospital treatments?

I don't understand the line of thinking here.

justakiwi
22-06-2021, 01:25 PM
Read my lips (again!) ….
Ageing is not an illness that needs “curing.”

It is a natural progression of the life cycle of every living creature on this planet.

You do not have empathy for anyone. Your whole “plan for the human race” revolves around money. You don’t believe the elderly contribute anything to society, because they can no longer work. Got news for you buddy - society supported you from the day you were conceived until the day you got your first job. But for some reason you don’t believe the elderly are worthy of support at the end stage of their life. Bet your parents and grandparents will be really happy to hear your views. They must be so proud of you.

You are now on “ignore.”





Though I'm against euthansaia and have empathy with the elderly. :)
Their wellbeing sould be provided for by society until a cure is

Panda-NZ-
22-06-2021, 01:27 PM
But for some reason you don’t believe the elderly are worthy of support at the end stage of their life. Bet your parents and grandparents will be really happy to hear your views. They must be so proud of you.

You are now on “ignore.”

Sigh. I said precisely the opposite.

Must be low attention span week or something. :\

justakiwi
22-06-2021, 01:31 PM
Except for the part where you said you supported them until a cure is found.

NOW you are on ignore :mad ;:


Sigh. I said precisely the opposite.

Panda-NZ-
22-06-2021, 01:32 PM
If they can work again why would they need superannuation though?

I would like a shift to a UBI moreso than lower taxes to cover those who can't.

Panda-NZ-
22-06-2021, 01:37 PM
Most people would have kiwisaver or other savings schemes freed up to do whatever they like with so there's that , too of course.

fungus pudding
22-06-2021, 02:27 PM
You should be banned for this statement.

No he shouldn't. It is simply a statement of fact.

Panda-NZ-
22-06-2021, 03:58 PM
Anyway, back on topic from here I think. :)

FTG
22-06-2021, 05:22 PM
Apologies for cross pollinating threads, I didn't see another way to pin BP down. He calls posts sickening, ignorant and stupid, delivers cheap shots and then says he puts you on ignore.

His defense of Marx and Lenin should be challenged by anyone who values their freedom. Marx advocated violent revolution. Lenin carried it out. Communism, by its very nature, requires oppression. There is no such thing as Pure Communism. It will lead to disaster. I challenged BP to demonstrate where it hasn't. He ran and then threw rocks.

I can't be arsed engaging with him any further, but I will defend myself. I reckon he'll eventually get sucked up in the vacuum created by his own echo chamber. Maybe he'll be stuck in there for eternity with Trump! (irony of yet another Trump reference noted!)

Sure, I have some empathy for you. When a character is being as slippery as an Eel, it is a little frustrating & hard to "pin them down". But, i would respectfully suggest that you BOTH seem to be throwing insults at each other. Jonu, i don't know you from a bar of soap, but i sense you are reasonably learned & considered. There is no need to lower yourself into the same petty name calling gutter as others. Rise above all that, and stick to the key premises & principles that you believe in, rather than lightly (& overtly) veiled character assassination. At the moment the posts from the both of you seems to be a competition between two egos....rather than a competition of ideas.

Anyho....keen to hear your respective definitions of Communism & Fascism. :-)
..and in keeping with the title of this thread, interested in your opinion; does the current Labour Govt have shades of either influencing their decisions & outcomes?

FTG
22-06-2021, 05:24 PM
Apologies for cross pollinating threads, I didn't see another way to pin BP down. He calls posts sickening, ignorant and stupid, delivers cheap shots and then says he puts you on ignore.

His defense of Marx and Lenin should be challenged by anyone who values their freedom. Marx advocated violent revolution. Lenin carried it out. Communism, by its very nature, requires oppression. There is no such thing as Pure Communism. It will lead to disaster. I challenged BP to demonstrate where it hasn't. He ran and then threw rocks.

I can't be arsed engaging with him any further, but I will defend myself. I reckon he'll eventually get sucked up in the vacuum created by his own echo chamber. Maybe he'll be stuck in there for eternity with Trump! (irony of yet another Trump reference noted!)

Sure, I have some empathy for you. When a character is being as slippery as an Eel, it is a little frustrating & hard to "pin them down". But, i would respectfully suggest that you BOTH seem to be throwing insults at each other. Jonu, i don't know you from a bar of soap, but i sense you are reasonably learned & considered. There is no need to lower yourself into the same petty name-calling gutter as others. Rise above all that, and stick to the key premises & principles that you believe in, rather than deploying lightly veiled (& overt) character assassination strategies. At the moment the posts from the both of you seems to be a competition between two egos....rather than a competition of ideas!

Anyho....still keen to hear your respective definitions of Communism & Fascism. :-)
..and in keeping with the title of this thread, interested in your opinion; does the current Labour Govt have shades of either influencing their decisions, & hence producing certain outcomes?

Panda-NZ-
22-06-2021, 05:54 PM
Unfortunately he/she has used similar terms in reference to letting all women control more of their own future.

I don't see why women should have expectations placed on them to bring a child into the world when it often means considerably lower economic opportunities for them.

Zaphod
23-06-2021, 12:26 PM
Mental health: Minister Andrew Little 'extraordinarily' frustrated with slow spend on $1.9b package from 2019 Budget
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mental-health-minister-andrew-little-extraordinarily-frustrated-with-slow-spend-on-19b-package-from-2019-budget/OG62VGSHJJHGRLF3SHPKM5HBJU/

Perhaps we should praise Andrew Little, as normally a government would spend the entire sum and deliver nothing. This time they've spent virtually nothing and delivered virtually nothing. A excellent improvement to bureaucratic efficiency, but perhaps not the result those impacted by mental health issues were after.

RGR367
23-06-2021, 12:35 PM
Mental health: Minister Andrew Little 'extraordinarily' frustrated with slow spend on $1.9b package from 2019 Budget
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mental-health-minister-andrew-little-extraordinarily-frustrated-with-slow-spend-on-19b-package-from-2019-budget/OG62VGSHJJHGRLF3SHPKM5HBJU/

Perhaps we should praise Andrew Little, as normally a government would spend the entire sum and deliver nothing. This time they've spent virtually nothing and delivered virtually nothing. A excellent improvement to bureaucratic efficiency, but perhaps not the result those impacted by mental health issues were after.

What do we expect? The gov't only knew how to deal with CoVid19 and that got loopholes everywhere even after so many mentions of "improving our procedures".

dobby41
23-06-2021, 12:59 PM
Mental health: Minister Andrew Little 'extraordinarily' frustrated with slow spend on $1.9b package from 2019 Budget
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mental-health-minister-andrew-little-extraordinarily-frustrated-with-slow-spend-on-19b-package-from-2019-budget/OG62VGSHJJHGRLF3SHPKM5HBJU/

Perhaps we should praise Andrew Little, as normally a government would spend the entire sum and deliver nothing. This time they've spent virtually nothing and delivered virtually nothing. A excellent improvement to bureaucratic efficiency, but perhaps not the result those impacted by mental health issues were after.

Those impacted by mental health would have liked the previous lot to have, at least, kept up with demand rather than effectively reducing funds.

dobby41
23-06-2021, 12:59 PM
Mental health: Minister Andrew Little 'extraordinarily' frustrated with slow spend on $1.9b package from 2019 Budget
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mental-health-minister-andrew-little-extraordinarily-frustrated-with-slow-spend-on-19b-package-from-2019-budget/OG62VGSHJJHGRLF3SHPKM5HBJU/

Perhaps we should praise Andrew Little, as normally a government would spend the entire sum and deliver nothing. This time they've spent virtually nothing and delivered virtually nothing. A excellent improvement to bureaucratic efficiency, but perhaps not the result those impacted by mental health issues were after.

Those impacted by mental health would have liked the previous lot to have, at least, kept up with demand rather than effectively reducing funds.

fungus pudding
23-06-2021, 02:17 PM
Labour certainly don't have much going for them, apart from Jacinda that is.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/06/jacinda-ardern-the-world-leader-australians-have-most-confidence-in-china-s-reputation-takes-beating-report.html

even Lorde gives her tick of approval.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/music/300338491/lorde-sings-the-praises-of-jacinda-ardern-during-appearance-on-us-television-chat-show
Now if Jacinda was really a good leader she would have reshuffled half the MPs into lesser rolls. Leaving the deadbeats in place as she does, albeit with a muzzle, will be her downfall.

Zaphod
23-06-2021, 03:14 PM
Those impacted by mental health would have liked the previous lot to have, at least, kept up with demand rather than effectively reducing funds.

What do the "previous lot" have to do with just 0.2% of the current budget having been spent since Labour allocated it in 2019? I thought there was a mental health crisis?

Panda-NZ-
23-06-2021, 03:19 PM
Damien O-connor and stuart nash are good.

Everyone else boring on both sides. No one is going to stay up for a debate between andrew bahly and grant etc.

dobby41
23-06-2021, 03:30 PM
What do the "previous lot" have to do with just 0.2% of the current budget having been spent since Labour allocated it in 2019?

Maybe I haven't been keeping track well enough but I thought one issue was that they'd spent a lot of money and not gotten much for it?
National was going on about the money spent for just 4 more beds.

Zaphod
23-06-2021, 03:35 PM
Maybe I haven't been keeping track well enough but I thought one issue was that they'd spent a lot of money and not gotten much for it?
National was going on about the money spent for just 4 more beds.

The issue is that Labour allocated $1.9B to mental health which is ostensibly in crisis, with approximately $230M specifically allocated to build new mental health facilities. Thus far only five acute mental health beds have been added since 2019. Surely there's a few more achievements not being disclosed, but it's not a good outcome given the crisis.

dobby41
23-06-2021, 03:46 PM
The issue is that Labour allocated $1.9B to mental health which is ostensibly in crisis, with approximately $230M specifically allocated to build new mental health facilities. Thus far only five acute mental health beds have been added since 2019. Surely there's a few more achievements not being disclosed, but it's not a good outcome given the crisis.

Fair enough.
It will be interesting to see the answers to the questions Little has asked.

fungus pudding
23-06-2021, 03:58 PM
The issue is that Labour allocated $1.9B to mental health which is ostensibly in crisis, with approximately $230M specifically allocated to build new mental health facilities. Thus far only five acute mental health beds have been added since 2019. Surely there's a few more achievements not being disclosed, but it's not a good outcome given the crisis.

It's not just mental health. Wait and see Labour trying to build the new general hospital in Dunedin. It's a disaster in the making. Original planning has involved Dn. Nth MP Stan Rodgers, MP Pete Hodgson, MP David Clark. Hopefully someone with a bit more vision can rescue this before it's too late - but I doubt it. To be built between the two busiest traffic arteries in the city - no parking planned, promised bed numbers already reduced by the architects. The whole project is just unbelievably nuts.

BlackPeter
23-06-2021, 04:41 PM
Labour certainly don't have much going for them, apart from Jacinda that is.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/06/jacinda-ardern-the-world-leader-australians-have-most-confidence-in-china-s-reputation-takes-beating-report.html

even Lorde gives her tick of approval.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/music/300338491/lorde-sings-the-praises-of-jacinda-ardern-during-appearance-on-us-television-chat-show
Now if Jacinda was really a good leader she would have reshuffled half the MPs into lesser rolls. Leaving the deadbeats in place as she does, albeit with a muzzle, will be her downfall.

I guess you are right - while I think that some of her team are not too bad ... others are pretty useless or streight forward incompetent. Her team has a significant lack of implementation skills. While some members of the Labour team can dream up nice sounding promises, none of them so far was able to show any worthwhile results.

On the other hand however - are you sure Labours team is less than what National can muster?

Lets remember - at election time its not about to offer a capable and good team. It is sufficient to have a better team than the opposition, and I think this condition is still valid :);

Just to clarify - I am not happy about this situation, but it is what it is. Mr Goodfellow turned National into the John Key election club ... and they never recovered. The leadership games last year gave as well the hardliners in National a chance to cut out their liberal wing .... and now its just a bunch of backwards looking Zombies left. They might give Winston a good fight for his 2.5%, but this is not anymore a party representing a broad range of interests.

Apart from cutting off their liberal wing - the MP's National used to select seem to go neither through a character nor through a competency check. The result is an amazing weirdo selection as National MP's - interesting for history, but clearly not good enough to get the numbers.

I give you that ACT has one good MP (don't know enough about the others but don't like to vote for gun lovers), but I can think at this stage about more genuine and capable Green and Labour MP's than about genuine and capable National MP's.

As a country we do have a problem with only one B-team and one C-team competing to run our government. Still some time to go to the next election, but so far I am not hopeful.

dobby41
23-06-2021, 05:37 PM
As a country we do have a problem with only one B-team and one C-team competing to run our government. Still some time to go to the next election, but so far I am not hopeful.

Well put .

Balance
23-06-2021, 08:40 PM
Well put .

More like a F team of incompetents incapable of delivering anything of consequence bolstered by PR Spin & BS in government.

Balance
24-06-2021, 01:29 PM
More like a F team of incompetents incapable of delivering anything of consequence bolstered by PR Spin & BS in government.

A prime example of how incompetent & woke this F team of nincompoops really is :

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/06/just-five-extra-acute-mental-health-beds-after-1-9-billion-investment-in-budget-2019.html

$1.9 billion for mental health & result after 3 years is 5 extra beds!

dobby41
24-06-2021, 02:11 PM
A prime example of how incompetent & woke this F team of nincompoops really is :

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/06/just-five-extra-acute-mental-health-beds-after-1-9-billion-investment-in-budget-2019.html

$1.9 billion for mental health & result after 3 years is 5 extra beds!

Little says that the 5 beds were paid out of other budgets - so not even 5 beds.
Of course, facilitiy upgrades etc are being planned and money spent doing that.
This has been probed here already - old article, do keep up.

777
24-06-2021, 04:44 PM
Little says that the 5 beds were paid out of other budgets - so not even 5 beds.
Of course, facilitiy upgrades etc are being planned and money spent doing that.
This has been probed here already - old article, do keep up.

It needs to be an old article to show how long nothing has been achieved.

dobby41
24-06-2021, 05:07 PM
It needs to be an old article to show how long nothing has been achieved.

Or to show that the person is behind the 8 ball!

777
24-06-2021, 05:16 PM
Or to show that the person is behind the 8 ball!

Glad you recognise you are behind the 8 ball. You are a little brighter than your posts indicate.

dobby41
24-06-2021, 05:30 PM
Glad you recognise you are behind the 8 ball. You are a little brighter than your posts indicate.

That is just childish!

Balance
24-06-2021, 10:12 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300341695/staff-and-prisoners-to-get-13m-compensation-for-waikeria-riot

Inexhaustible goodwill & money to be used by the ever useless token Maori leader in Cindy’s team of incompetents.

iceman
25-06-2021, 07:12 AM
The $50B "COVID-19" fund all but depleted, largely on totally unrelated and out of control expenditure. Well done Robinson. From the Herald:

"As part of the 2020 Budget, the Government established a $50 billion Covid-19 Response and Recovery Fund (CRRF), billions of which was not allocated to particular initiatives to allow Cabinet to allocated spending as needs arose.

When Labour released its pre-election fiscal statement, it not only published an estimate of what New Zealand's debt levels would be if the fund was spent, it provided a second debt track showing what would happen if the remaining funds in the CRRF were not needed, implying that the funds were contingent on specific Covid related initiatives.
Read More
Whangārei welcomes $2
Since then the funds have continued to be depleted, in some cases for spending with little clear link to the response to Covid-19.

By February, the Government said that the amount unspent had fallen to $10.2b which had been "set aside for any future health and economic response needed in the case of a further Covid-19 resurgence".

However, half of the remaining money was allocated to the housing acceleration package, a suite of measures announced by ministers in March aimed at improving housing affordability.

Documents released by Treasury show that initiatives to get funding included wallaby and wilding conifer control schemes, as well as funding for the Olympics, water safety, a play about the Covid response, and a "modern approach to night classes".

Opposition shadow treasurer Andrew Bayly said much of the spending in the fund had been wasteful and now Robertson was likely to have to borrow more in the event that there was a Covid-19 outbreak.

"In a traditional budgeting sense, everyone knows what the operational allowance is. What's he [Robertson] has done is he's just chosen to create this artificial fund, a conceptual fund, and every time he needs a bit of extra money, he's just dipped into it. And, unfortunately, he's dipped into it again and again and now there's only $5 billion left," Bayly said.

"What I'm worried about is, what happens going forward. If we do get Covid, we actually need this money spent on good projects that relate to Covid, but more importantly this was set aside for a health response.

"In the event that there is a lockdown, we need a truckload of money because we know how expensive it is.""

iceman
25-06-2021, 07:13 AM
Double post

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2021, 09:55 AM
National wanted heeaps of tax cuts and business subsidies we didn't need which would have been worse.

Plus the opposition seem to like wasting money in terms of their allocated budget, MP perks etc.

Balance
25-06-2021, 09:59 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300341098/housing-minister-corrects-record-after-clerical-error-leaves-off-475000-in-sponsored-media-stories

A government of Pinocchio’s.

stoploss
25-06-2021, 10:42 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300341098/housing-minister-corrects-record-after-clerical-error-leaves-off-475000-in-sponsored-media-stories

A government of Pinocchio’s.
Half a million on spin ....that could have built a new house......

Balance
25-06-2021, 11:00 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300341835/auckland-tornado-prime-minister-to-meet-with-affected-residents-on-friday

Disasters - Cindy loves them. The more the better as far as this non delivering spinstress is concerned.

She has bugger all else to show for the last 3.5 years of being in government except a lot of excuses and passing the buck.

jonu
25-06-2021, 11:59 AM
Sure, I have some empathy for you. When a character is being as slippery as an Eel, it is a little frustrating & hard to "pin them down". But, i would respectfully suggest that you BOTH seem to be throwing insults at each other. Jonu, i don't know you from a bar of soap, but i sense you are reasonably learned & considered. There is no need to lower yourself into the same petty name-calling gutter as others. Rise above all that, and stick to the key premises & principles that you believe in, rather than deploying lightly veiled (& overt) character assassination strategies. At the moment the posts from the both of you seems to be a competition between two egos....rather than a competition of ideas!

Anyho....still keen to hear your respective definitions of Communism & Fascism. :-)
..and in keeping with the title of this thread, interested in your opinion; does the current Labour Govt have shades of either influencing their decisions, & hence producing certain outcomes?

I didn't really want to continue with this on this thread, but didn't want to appear to duck the question.

For the context of the this discussion, BlackPeter aligned Communism with Marxism, which is quite logical given the history. He then defended Marx's and Lenin's position, while acknowledging later that Lenin had acted outside his principles. He also attacked my posts as sickening and stupid!

I'm not au fait with the inner workings of the Kibbutz system but from what I understand, it may be a non-Marxist form of Communism, but it acts at a very confined, local level, not State. Happy to better informed on that.

As for Fascism, the 20th Century shows us that the Left/Right divergence becomes circular at the extremes, and politically, there is not much to differentiate between Fascism and Communism. Perhaps the difference is more economics based. Remember Hitler's rise began with massive State spending on infrastructure, alongside his growing attacks on Jews and fierce Nationalism.

As for our current regime, Labour are showing worrying signs on many fronts. Their post-Modern Marxist allies the Greens, and many of their own party, live and breath Identity Politics. Labour has manipulated the Covid pandemic with relentless propaganda and massive spending from the Covid fund on projects that have nothing to do with it.

Two funding bribes to Mainstream media, part of which is funding what can only be called a propaganda campaign on Stuff promoting vaccination. on top of that, millions of dollars being spent on advertising on media websites.

The following chilling article about proposed "Hate Speech" laws shows it will be illegal for religious groups to hold and disseminate views that are contrary to "State values".

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/hate-speech-govt-plans-new-law-tougher-penalties/ar-AALphie?ocid=msedgntp

Ardern was also quoted this morning as considering making QR scanning compulsory.

So, yes, I believe Ardern's government are entering frightening territory, largely under the cloak of Covid fear induced propaganda.

If they were really proactive on Covid and re-opening the borders, they would have dedicated Covid hospitals/wards with hundreds of ICU beds and ventilators ready to go now. I would have had no problem with a billion being spent on that. Too simple a solution. They would rather impose more authoritarian measures which may never be reversed,

Balance
25-06-2021, 12:48 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300341835/auckland-tornado-prime-minister-to-meet-with-affected-residents-on-friday

Disasters - Cindy loves them. The more the better as far as this non delivering spinstress is concerned.

She has bugger all else to show for the last 3.5 years of being in government except a lot of excuses and passing the buck.

The BS & Spin gets bigger and bigger as the disaster gets smaller in impact.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300341835/auckland-tornado-prime-minister-delivers-soft-toys-to-victims-from-daughter-neve

“She said Neve had heard about the tornado and wanted to give something to the affected families.” Really?

jonu
25-06-2021, 12:53 PM
The BS & Spin gets bigger and bigger as the disaster gets smaller in impact.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300341835/auckland-tornado-prime-minister-delivers-soft-toys-to-victims-from-daughter-neve

“She said Neve had heard about the tornado and wanted to give something to the affected families.” Really?

Yeah, I call BS on that. Beginning to sound a little desperate is our Cindy. I suspect either leading questions from Ardern could illicit some such thing from a 3 year old, or more likely, her PR team dreamt it up.

JBmurc
25-06-2021, 01:40 PM
The $50B "COVID-19" fund all but depleted, largely on totally unrelated and out of control expenditure. Well done Robinson. From the Herald:

"As part of the 2020 Budget, the Government established a $50 billion Covid-19 Response and Recovery Fund (CRRF), billions of which was not allocated to particular initiatives to allow Cabinet to allocated spending as needs arose.

When Labour released its pre-election fiscal statement, it not only published an estimate of what New Zealand's debt levels would be if the fund was spent, it provided a second debt track showing what would happen if the remaining funds in the CRRF were not needed, implying that the funds were contingent on specific Covid related initiatives.
Read More
infrastructure welcomes $2
Since then the funds have continued to be depleted, in some cases for spending with little clear link to the response to Covid-19.

By February, the Government said that the amount unspent had fallen to $10.2b which had been "set aside for any future health and economic response needed in the case of a further Covid-19 resurgence".

However, half of the remaining money was allocated to the housing acceleration package, a suite of measures announced by ministers in March aimed at improving housing affordability.

Documents released by Treasury show that initiatives to get funding included wallaby and wilding conifer control schemes, as well as funding for the Olympics, water safety, a play about the Covid response, and a "modern approach to night classes".

Opposition shadow treasurer Andrew Bayly said much of the spending in the fund had been wasteful and now Robertson was likely to have to borrow more in the event that there was a Covid-19 outbreak.

"In a traditional budgeting sense, everyone knows what the operational allowance is. What's he [Robertson] has done is he's just chosen to create this artificial fund, a conceptual fund, and every time he needs a bit of extra money, he's just dipped into it. And, unfortunately, he's dipped into it again and again and now there's only $5 billion left," Bayly said.

"What I'm worried about is, what happens going forward. If we do get Covid, we actually need this money spent on good projects that relate to Covid, but more importantly this was set aside for a health response.

"In the event that there is a lockdown, we need a truckload of money because we know how expensive it is.""

Yes 50bill put on tick with a FED Loan ... with rates to rise >> If only the 50bill actually went into core infrastructure to help NZ grow its low productivity

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2021, 03:59 PM
There's the kiwirail and provincial growth fund projects. Roads don't need to be repaved every six years if it reduces fright truck numbers.

Shows they need NZF in there to deliver better focus to the spending.

BlackPeter
25-06-2021, 04:43 PM
There's the kiwirail and provincial growth fund projects. Roads don't need to be repaved every six years if it reduces fright truck numbers.

Shows they need NZF in there to deliver better focus to the spending.

I dare to disagree. Winston (aka NZF) always called himself the hand break on Labour. Maybe he was. However - what Labour needs is not a handbrake but a kick into the butt!

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2021, 04:45 PM
Well we are corona free and have a world leading economy.
Not great, not terrible.

BlackPeter
25-06-2021, 05:15 PM
Well we are corona free and have a world leading economy.
Not great, not terrible.

Well. We hope to be corona free (cross all fingers you can), yes - but a world leading economy? ... you must be kidding, aren't you?

NZ's economy is not doing bad, considering the circumstances, however it is plagued by a lot of systemic problems which so far none of our governments cared to address. Our efficiency and productivity is well below OECD average and the outcomes of our education system dropped over the last 30 years or so from being nearly at the top of the league to being nearly at the bottom. Our economy will suffer under these outcomes, but it certainly will not lead - unless into the abyss.

Inept bunch our recent governments, no matter whether we talk the blue team, the red team or the black handbrake.

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2021, 05:28 PM
Jobless rate is rather low despite the MW rising by $1 per hr each year.

Though the oecd lays out some good areas for improvement:
https://www.oecd.org/economy/growth/New-Zealand-country-note-going-for-growth-2021.pdf

dobby41
25-06-2021, 05:34 PM
Roads don't need to be repaved every six years if it reduces fright truck numbers.
.

'Fright' trucks must be a bad thing - probably bad for the blood pressure. :t_up:

Joshuatree
25-06-2021, 05:35 PM
Well. We hope to be corona free (cross all fingers you can), yes - but a world leading economy? ... you must be kidding, aren't you?

NZ's economy is not doing bad, considering the circumstances, however it is plagued by a lot of systemic problems which so far none of our governments cared to address. Our efficiency and productivity is well below OECD average and the outcomes of our education system dropped over the last 30 years or so from being nearly at the top of the league to being nearly at the bottom. Our economy will suffer under these outcomes, but it certainly will not lead - unless into the abyss.

Inept bunch our recent governments, no matter whether we talk the blue team, the red team or the black handbrake.

A big part of the prob is the relying on cheap overseas labour , no need for businesses to be more productive.The model has to change, pay kiwis more and train them, up skill them, improve efficiencies, systems etc, havnt had to bother with cheap overseas labour.

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2021, 05:35 PM
Other information from OECD:

https://www.oecd.org/economy/new-zealand-economic-snapshot/

They show that public infrastructure projects are slated for 2021-22 @ 1% of GDP.

Panda-NZ-
25-06-2021, 05:38 PM
A big part of the prob is the relying on cheap overseas labour , no need for businesses to be more productive.The model has to change, pay kiwis more and train them, up skill them, improve efficiencies, systems etc, havnt had to bother with cheap overseas labour.

Yes wages and salaries should be rising when we assume the borders are closed.

If they are not now, they never will, and it points to broader issues with the labour market.

Bjauck
26-06-2021, 09:40 AM
Yes wages and salaries should be rising when we assume the borders are closed.

If they are not now, they never will, and it points to broader issues with the labour market. Apart from tinkering around the edges, Labour is continuing the NZ low productivity Labour/expensive land paradigm. It looks likely to continue as expensive real estate sucks up so much investment seeking the best after tax returns.

jonu
26-06-2021, 10:12 AM
The trans-madness continues, with an article that should have been headlined "Man ruled ineligible for Women's race."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jun/24/cece-telfer-transgender-runner-olympic-trials

Balance
26-06-2021, 10:14 AM
Apart from tinkering around the edges, Labour is continuing the NZ low productivity Labour/expensive land paradigm. It looks likely to continue as expensive real estate sucks up so much investment seeking the best after tax returns.


A prime example of how incompetent & woke this F team of nincompoops really is :

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/06/just-five-extra-acute-mental-health-beds-after-1-9-billion-investment-in-budget-2019.html

$1.9 billion for mental health & result after 3 years is 5 extra beds!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/125561563/urgent-rebuild-of-dirty-cold-and-prisonlike-mental-health-facilities-still-awaits-govt-signoff

Run down mental health facility waiting for government sign off since August 2020.

What has Cindy been so busy with to defer a decision?

Making big promises, delivering bugger all, Implementing woke initiatives and looking for more disasters - that’s her forte.

Bjauck
26-06-2021, 11:28 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/125561563/urgent-rebuild-of-dirty-cold-and-prisonlike-mental-health-facilities-still-awaits-govt-signoff

Run down mental health facility waiting for government sign off since August 2020.

What has Cindy been so busy with to defer a decision?

Making big promises, delivering bugger all, Implementing woke initiatives and looking for more disasters - that’s her forte.

I don't agree with some of their fiscal policies however at least they are more awake to some social issues that previous governments had left on snooze control. Mental Health and Housing continue to be two of the many areas that have been perennial bugbears.

BlackPeter
26-06-2021, 11:31 AM
A big part of the prob is the relying on cheap overseas labour , no need for businesses to be more productive.The model has to change, pay kiwis more and train them, up skill them, improve efficiencies, systems etc, havnt had to bother with cheap overseas labour.

Not even close.

Plenty of economies around the world who use (as well) cheap labour and have still a high quality education system. To pick just two random examples: Germany has its cheap labour mainly from Eastern Europe (like Poland, Czechia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria), Singapore has its cheap labour mainly from Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines. Both countries have outstanding education systems and a (per capita) economy ways better than New Zealand.

Now - I am not saying, it is good that they take advantage of cheap labour, but it is clearly not the issue here.

The problem is that we in New Zealand choose to deteriorate our education system because it was easy, convenient and politically correct. Easier to just give in to the teachers unions and hire teacher who are aligned with them and talk the unions rubbish instead of hiring quality teachers who know their stuff and are able to teach. Easier to put people in charge of the teachers college who teach their students that maths is not important. The idiot I am talking about is as far as I know still in charge ...

Much easier to mainstream on the lowest possible level and give every student at the end of the year a certificate for attending instead of making the hard decisions and work with students individually, improving the weak as well as the good ones ... and much easier to reward in class the mentally challenged troublemakers and push the level of all students to the lowest common denominator.

Our education system is more and more geared to produce the lowest level of quality with the highest possible cost ... and the problem is political correctness and unions self interest. Never worry about a teachers ability to teach as long as they sing from the unions song sheet. Don't pick people who might rock the boat, who cares as long as we are world best in New Zealand, isn't it?

New Zealand still teaches reading in a quite stupid way using the whole word method, which the rest of the world stopped using 30 years ago (after a short stunt trying it) ... just because it was a Kiwi developing this braindead method. The result are less people able to read and write than we otherwise would have. We developed a mass production of dyslexic people and even give people who can't read university degrees (providing a reader / writer to get them through the exams). Obviously - nobody will give these people afterwards a job given they need to hire a reader / writer on top of them.

That's producing ideological rubbish, not the labour our economy would need to improve.

We need to get our education back to the basics - teach our students to read, to write and to do maths ... no need, though to have a computer in every class. Cheap labour is not the problem. Laziness, braindead ideology and political correctness is.

Bjauck
26-06-2021, 11:36 AM
...

We need to get our education back to the basics - teach our students to read, to write and to do maths ... no need, though to have a computer in every class. Cheap labour is not the problem. Laziness, braindead ideology and political correctness is. Well put. NZ has only put one part of the process into practice - the cheap imported labour.

fungus pudding
26-06-2021, 12:14 PM
Dearest Jacinda ................................

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/open-letter-don-brash-to-the-prime-minister

Balance
26-06-2021, 01:20 PM
Dearest Jacinda ................................

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/open-letter-don-brash-to-the-prime-minister

And Cindy will ignore the truth and not answer. Because she needs the Maori vote to stay in power so she must give them everything they want.

Grubby politics by a grubby woman.

Panda-NZ-
26-06-2021, 01:36 PM
We need to get our education back to the basics - teach our students to read, to write and to do maths ... no need, though to have a computer in every class. Cheap labour is not the problem. Laziness, braindead ideology and political correctness is.

In the united states their end of high school exams are multiple choice:

https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/pdf/sat-practice-test-1.pdf

Though we should definately aim to be the best in the world.
Which might not be singapore or asia given they produce rote learning robots (who are easy to automate).

Bjauck
26-06-2021, 01:38 PM
Dearest Jacinda ................................

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/open-letter-don-brash-to-the-prime-minister Why do the English articles of The Treaty of Waitangi refer to the Queen of England. There was no such position in 1840. Queen Victoria was Queen of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Sovereignty was ceded to an entity that did not exist?

Panda-NZ-
26-06-2021, 01:45 PM
Why do the English articles of The Treaty of Waitangi refer to the Queen of England. There was no such position in 1840. Queen Victoria was Queen of Great Britain and Ireland. Sovereignty was ceded to an entity that did not exist?

So, it was a simple colonisation process and hence NZ's tribal aristocrats have no special rights in this case?

jonu
26-06-2021, 02:03 PM
Unfortunately he/she has used similar terms in reference to letting all women control more of their own future.

I don't see why women should have expectations placed on them to bring a child into the world when it often means considerably lower economic opportunities for them.

A clear explanation that anyone who thinks abortion is just fine and dandy should watch. The philosophical history around free will being engaged in opposition to truth also explains some of the trans madness the West is currently enduring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp3vbgU8HR4

Bjauck
26-06-2021, 02:04 PM
So it was a simple colonisation process and hence NZ's tribal aristocrats have no special rights in this case? Possibly...or, the subsequent colonisation and Crown control was illegitimate and NZ should revert to full iwi control now.

Panda-NZ-
26-06-2021, 02:07 PM
The UN would have some issues with an aristocratic structure and excluding most of the population from making decisions.

Democracy works well, or is the best form of govt we have.

Bjauck
26-06-2021, 02:20 PM
The UN would have some issues with an aristocratic structure and excluding most of the population from making decisions.

Democracy works well, or is the best form of govt we have. The 1835 Declaration of Independence of the United Tribes of NZ may have standing as a consequence of the voiding of 1840 Treaty. The iwi may convene and offer the British a new Treaty and establish a new constitution for NZ.

fungus pudding
26-06-2021, 02:54 PM
Why do the English articles of The Treaty of Waitangi refer to the Queen of England. There was no such position in 1840. Queen Victoria was Queen of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Sovereignty was ceded to an entity that did not exist?

Naturally It follows that the Queen of the U.K. and G.B is the Queen of England, so what's wrong with referring to her as such? Nothing of course. There's plenty of history of early 'Kind and Queens of England', as you well know.

Zaphod
26-06-2021, 03:37 PM
This could be in the Labour thread or the coronavirus thread, but given this is a bit more political, I'll post it here.

Fran O'Sullivan: Just answer the question Jacinda

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/fran-osullivan-just-answer-the-question-jacinda/WOI3U5APWTBGVZR37XMMNFSEV4/

"It's now very difficult for the Prime Minister to turn around and kick ass over the haphazard Covid vaccine rollout when she has backed herself into a corner over the OECD's decision to award New Zealand bottom ranking on this score. But that is exactly what she needs to do. In other words, adopt the Helen Clark approach of 'I've had a gutsful and I'm going to fix this'."

"There has been a great deal of obfuscation from the top floor of the Beehive in the last fortnight over the OECD's verdict. The Paris-based organisation says New Zealand's vaccination pace needs to accelerate to reduce the risk of new outbreaks and pave the way for full border opening in 2022."

Bjauck
26-06-2021, 03:58 PM
Naturally It follows that the Queen of the U.K. and G.B is the Queen of England, so what's wrong with referring to her as such? Nothing of course. There's plenty of history of early 'Kind and Queens of England', as you well know. There was no such title or office as the Queen of England so it did not naturally follow. Victoria only had authority as the Queen of the UK of GB and Ireland within the geographical borders of England. Likewise her only authority internationally was as the Queen of the UK of GB and Ireland. The kingdom of England had ceased to exist in 1707 with the Act of Union, a long time prior to Queen Victoria’s time.

If Don Brash is wants to pick at nits in the Treaty of Waitangi, maybe he should pick at that one too?

The first: The chiefs of the Confederation and all the Chiefs who have not joined that Confederation give absolutely to the Queen of England for ever the complete government over their land

Government was given to a non-existent office holder. In addition there was no Kingdom of England government only a British government.

There is plenty of history of Monarchs of England just as there has been with Monarchs of France and Emperors of Rome. However that is not relevant.

fungus pudding
26-06-2021, 04:21 PM
There was no such title or office as the Queen of England so it did not naturally follow. Victoria only had authority as the Queen of the UK of GB and Ireland within the geographical borders of England. Likewise her only authority internationally was as the Queen of the UK of GB and Ireland. The kingdom of England had ceased to exist in 1707 with the Act of Union, a long time prior to Queen Victoria’s time.

If Don Brash is wants to pick at nits in the Treaty of Waitangi, maybe he should pick at that one too?

There is plenty of history of Monarchs of England just as there has been with Monarchs of France and Emperors of Rome. However that is not relevant.

Regardless of title, she was the queen of England. Just as the current one is.

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/KingsQueensofBritain/

'There have been 61 monarchs of England and Britain spread over a period of approximately 1200 years'.

Bjauck
26-06-2021, 04:23 PM
This could be in the Labour thread or the coronavirus thread, but given this is a bit more political, I'll post it here.

Fran O'Sullivan: Just answer the question Jacinda

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/fran-osullivan-just-answer-the-question-jacinda/WOI3U5APWTBGVZR37XMMNFSEV4/

"It's now very difficult for the Prime Minister to turn around and kick ass over the haphazard Covid vaccine rollout when she has backed herself into a corner over the OECD's decision to award New Zealand bottom ranking on this score. But that is exactly what she needs to do. In other words, adopt the Helen Clark approach of 'I've had a gutsful and I'm going to fix this'."

"There has been a great deal of obfuscation from the top floor of the Beehive in the last fortnight over the OECD's verdict. The Paris-based organisation says New Zealand's vaccination pace needs to accelerate to reduce the risk of new outbreaks and pave the way for full border opening in 2022." A big fail on the government’s behalf. They should turn the vaccine rollout over to iwi.

Bjauck
26-06-2021, 04:30 PM
Regardless of title, she was the queen of England. Just as the current one is.

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/KingsQueensofBritain/

'There have been 61 monarchs of England and Britain spread over a period of approximately 1200 years'. Queen Anne, who died in 1714 was the last Queen of England.

Panda-NZ-
26-06-2021, 04:30 PM
A big fail on the government’s behalf. They should turn the vaccine rollout over to iwi.


Yes the Iwi were good stewards over everything they were reponsible for of course.

https://teara.govt.nz/en/fire-and-agriculture

Panda-NZ-
26-06-2021, 04:49 PM
Slippery slope:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/06/could-millennials-be-jailed-for-hating-on-boomers-kris-faafoi-answers-tough-questions-about-the-new-hate-speech-proposals.html

I don't agree with the govts changes here and its been poorly explained.
How long until people are imprisoned for simply disliking a government.

fungus pudding
26-06-2021, 05:39 PM
Queen Anne, who died in 1714 was the last Queen of England.

Look it up and you'll find there is a current queen of England,, as well as rest of UK, named Elizabeth.

peetter
26-06-2021, 05:43 PM
Yes wages and salaries should be rising when we assume the borders are closed.

If they are not now, they never will, and it points to broader issues with the labour market.

There's no way wages will go up if the biggest employer, government, decided to freeze pay increases for another 3 years. Labour deliberately keeps people poor with taxes, policies and pay freezes. This will end up in essential workers going to Australia. Why would a starting nurse work here, when Australia offers 20k more and cheaper living?

Bjauck
26-06-2021, 05:56 PM
Look it up and you'll find there is a current queen of England,, as well as rest of UK, named Elizabeth.
I presume you are referring to the Queen of the United Kingdom because the Queen of England refers to an historical position just like a reference to the Emperor of Rome? Both those positions used to have authority over parts of Britain.

Bjauck
26-06-2021, 05:58 PM
Slippery slope:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/06/could-millennials-be-jailed-for-hating-on-boomers-kris-faafoi-answers-tough-questions-about-the-new-hate-speech-proposals.html

I don't agree with the govts changes here and its been poorly explained.
How long until people are imprisoned for simply disliking a government. Quite worrying if they make the definition of hate speech broad - as slander and defamation have been in the past.

fungus pudding
26-06-2021, 06:02 PM
Quite worrying if they make the definition of hate speech broad - as slander and defamation have been in the past.

Well, we can agree on that one.

Bjauck
26-06-2021, 06:09 PM
Well, we can agree on that one. Yep. Probably a few other things too :o

fungus pudding
26-06-2021, 08:12 PM
Yep. Probably a few other things too :o

Wouldn't want to run out of debating points altogether though.:D

Joshuatree
26-06-2021, 09:59 PM
This could be in the Labour thread or the coronavirus thread, but given this is a bit more political, I'll post it here.

Fran O'Sullivan: Just answer the question Jacinda

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/fran-osullivan-just-answer-the-question-jacinda/WOI3U5APWTBGVZR37XMMNFSEV4/

"It's now very difficult for the Prime Minister to turn around and kick ass over the haphazard Covid vaccine rollout when she has backed herself into a corner over the OECD's decision to award New Zealand bottom ranking on this score. But that is exactly what she needs to do. In other words, adopt the Helen Clark approach of 'I've had a gutsful and I'm going to fix this'."

"There has been a great deal of obfuscation from the top floor of the Beehive in the last fortnight over the OECD's verdict. The Paris-based organisation says New Zealand's vaccination pace needs to accelerate to reduce the risk of new outbreaks and pave the way for full border opening in 2022."

Pretty sloppy of Fran.The govt made the right decision going with the far better vaccine Pfizer after seeing the safety issues with other vaccines. Quality takes a little longer to deliver quantities though. So the "rrollout has gone as fast as it can given the availability of vaccines arriving in NZ '.This was transparent and clear.

peetter
26-06-2021, 10:47 PM
Pretty sloppy of Fran.The govt made the right decision going with the far better vaccine Pfizer after seeing the safety issues with other vaccines. Quality takes a little longer to deliver quantities though. So the "rrollout has gone as fast as it can given the availability of vaccines arriving in NZ '.This was transparent and clear.

First it was not transparent, they promised much faster rollout.

Second, in Europe people over 30 can get vaccinated now, while here government is running radio ads saying over 60yo will be vaccinated by the end of the year. What a joke! And they are trying to sell it as a success.

Third, there's plenty of safe vaccines.

iceman
26-06-2021, 11:36 PM
First it was not transparent, they promised much faster rollout.

Second, in Europe people over 30 can get vaccinated now, while here government is running radio ads saying over 60yo will be vaccinated by the end of the year. What a joke! And they are trying to sell it as a success.

Third, there's plenty of safe vaccines.

Exactly. Lame excuse to say Pfizer is the only safe vaccine and somehow trying to justify being the least vaccinated OECD country.

Bjauck
27-06-2021, 08:09 AM
Pretty sloppy of Fran.The govt made the right decision going with the far better vaccine Pfizer after seeing the safety issues with other vaccines. Quality takes a little longer to deliver quantities though. So the "rrollout has gone as fast as it can given the availability of vaccines arriving in NZ '.This was transparent and clear. A risky strategy when you end up playing Russian roulette with the risk of more infectious and deadly variants developing and taking hold before you start hitting a high vaccination percentage. We've already dodged several bullets. Current variants are less forgiving of border relaxations and holes. Look at Taiwan, and by the looks of it now possibly big brother across the ditch.

westerly
27-06-2021, 10:02 AM
Exactly. Lame excuse to say Pfizer is the only safe vaccine and somehow trying to justify being the least vaccinated OECD country.

They must be doing something right. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/05/coronavirus-nz-only-oecd-country-to-have-fewer-deaths-than-expected-in-2020-study.html

westerly

fungus pudding
27-06-2021, 10:39 AM
They must be doing something right. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/05/coronavirus-nz-only-oecd-country-to-have-fewer-deaths-than-expected-in-2020-study.html

westerly

And what do you think that is..?

BlackPeter
27-06-2021, 10:51 AM
They must be doing something right. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/05/coronavirus-nz-only-oecd-country-to-have-fewer-deaths-than-expected-in-2020-study.html

westerly

It's just a funny source "researchers from the US and Europe" no names, no university. Researched and written by a junior intern at best or pure click bait at worst.

Well, here is a researcher from New Zealand who found in a handful of minutes that the unnamed researchers NewsHub referred to are misleading at best.

Have a play with the data yourself ...

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

... but of the countries I randomly picked has Sweden (yes, Sweden!) at current with negative 6% a lower excess mortality than New Zealand had in 2020 with negative 2%.

The other thing you see in the graph below is that the excess mortality is drastically jumping from month to month. A country which looked good in December can have a terrible rate in February the following year. No researcher worthwhile his or her powder would want their name connected to such a pointless research ... but hey - this is probably why they didn't named the researchers (if they exist at all ...).

12675

Sir Ten
27-06-2021, 11:30 AM
It's just a funny source "researchers from the US and Europe" no names, no university. Researched and written by a junior intern at best or pure click bait at worst.

Well, here is a researcher from New Zealand who found in a handful of minutes that the unnamed researchers NewsHub referred to are misleading at best.

Have a play with the data yourself ...

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

... but of the countries I randomly picked has Sweden (yes, Sweden!) at current with negative 6% a lower excess mortality than New Zealand had in 2020 with negative 2%.

The other thing you see in the graph below is that the excess mortality is drastically jumping from month to month. A country which looked good in December can have a terrible rate in February the following year. No researcher worthwhile his or her powder would want their name connected to such a pointless research ... but hey - this is probably why they didn't named the researchers (if they exist at all ...).

12675

You had to click on the link in the article... https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1137

Dude behind it looks reasonably credible...

https://www.ctsu.ox.ac.uk/team/nazrul-islam

https://scholar.harvard.edu/naz

https://www.mrc-epid.cam.ac.uk/people/nazrul-islam/