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dobby41
27-06-2021, 03:27 PM
First it was not transparent, they promised much faster rollout.



What was the original timeline?

Zaphod
27-06-2021, 03:41 PM
And what do you think that is..?

You've hit the nail on the head there FP. The article doesn't make any specific attributions around cause and effect, although it would appear at least anecdotally that the initial lockdown and border control could be the main reason. For those that were already infected, our health system coped well, although if numbers had increased we would have been (and still could be if the delta variant escapes) in serious trouble.

fungus pudding
27-06-2021, 03:52 PM
You've hit the nail on the head there FP. The article doesn't make any specific attributions around cause and effect, although it would appear at least anecdotally that the initial lockdown and border control could be the main reason.

Along with the fact we are a very small blob in a very large puddle.

macduffy
27-06-2021, 04:29 PM
Whatever the "research", of my circle of elderly friends, many with on-going health issues, none have been offered a Covid vaccination.

westerly
27-06-2021, 05:14 PM
It's just a funny source "researchers from the US and Europe" no names, no university. Researched and written by a junior intern at best or pure click bait at worst.

Well, here is a researcher from New Zealand who found in a handful of minutes that the unnamed researchers NewsHub referred to are misleading at best.

Have a play with the data yourself ...

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

... but of the countries I randomly picked has Sweden (yes, Sweden!) at current with negative 6% a lower excess mortality than New Zealand had in 2020 with negative 2%.

The other thing you see in the graph below is that the excess mortality is drastically jumping from month to month. A country which looked good in December can have a terrible rate in February the following year. No researcher worthwhile his or her powder would want their name connected to such a pointless research ... but hey - this is probably why they didn't named the researchers (if they exist at all ...).

12675

But hey,
If you clicked on the red line you may have got all the information you claim is missing. :)

westerly

BlackPeter
27-06-2021, 05:28 PM
You had to click on the link in the article... https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1137

Dude behind it looks reasonably credible...

https://www.ctsu.ox.ac.uk/team/nazrul-islam

https://scholar.harvard.edu/naz

https://www.mrc-epid.cam.ac.uk/people/nazrul-islam/

Fair enough. He has a name and an academical title.

However doesn't change the fact that countries which looked terrible in
December 2020 looked quite flash in February 2021 and vice versa. Whether NZ looks good or bad compared to other countries on excess mortality depends exclusively on the arbitrary decision in which month you choose to take the data.

I guess - no doubt we look reasonably good, given that our Covid deaths are immaterial, but are we the best in the world? There have been a number of other countries with very little Covid deaths ... and whether they are on excess mortality better of worse is really just a pure random thing - what happened in this country in the last 5 years in that month and what else (other than Covid) happened in the month you pull the data. Add on top of that that many countries suffer under variable delays recording their deaths (making the data for one individual months somewhat questionable) is he really trying to draw conclusions based on a symphony made off white noise.

Have a look at e.g. data from Singapore, Iceland, Taiwan and Germany over time, and than tell me why you think (if you still do) that NZ did better related to excess mortality.

So far I think this is just B/S.

Bjauck
27-06-2021, 05:59 PM
Whatever the "research", of my circle of elderly friends, many with on-going health issues, none have been offered a Covid vaccination.
My elderly relative and her circle of friends (in their early to mid 80’s in S. and E. Auckland) have all had at least one jab.

tim23
27-06-2021, 09:24 PM
There's no way wages will go up if the biggest employer, government, decided to freeze pay increases for another 3 years. Labour deliberately keeps people poor with taxes, policies and pay freezes. This will end up in essential workers going to Australia. Why would a starting nurse work here, when Australia offers 20k more and cheaper living?

Its never that simple, a nurse may own a home here or be with a partner with good income or may simply prefer to live in NZ - pure speculation on your part

jonu
28-06-2021, 03:04 PM
Lookout NZ. We are beginning to see the danger of having a woke, eloquent, intellectual lightweight in charge.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/jacinda-ardern-has-misled-the-public-and-shut-down-debate-on-hate-speech-laws/ar-AALvMir?ocid=msedgntp

Tova O'Brien, who in recent months seems to have had some of the Cindy dust removed from her eyes, shreds Ardern for misleading the public. Either Ardern doesn't understand the law, or she is willfully misleading the NZ public for her own nefarious purposes. Ardern is shown to be wrong on so many aspects that you have to wonder why she would burn so much political capital on this issue....or she is genuinely too stupid to understand the implications of the proposals. Given that Andrew Little was prepared to throw out 1000 years of juris prudence with his intent to do away with presumption of innocence in rape trials, it's a coin toss whether they are both intellectually challenged or have an agenda of far reaching control.

As O'Brien rightly points out, politicising the March terror attack is also cynical in the extreme. Furthermore these new proposals would not have prevented that attack.

Bjauck
28-06-2021, 04:07 PM
For all I didn’t agree with so much about Winston Peters, it seems that The current PM in government with a Labour majority uses a blunderbus when targeting new policy.

iceman
28-06-2021, 04:25 PM
A scathing article in the Herald as well, written by Audrey Young, starting like this:

"In the four days since the Government outlined changes to "hate speech" law, it has become obvious from comments by the Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, that she does not understand them."

fungus pudding
28-06-2021, 04:50 PM
A scathing article in the Herald as well, written by Audrey Young, starting like this:

"In the four days since the Government outlined changes to "hate speech" law, it has become obvious from comments by the Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, that she does not understand them."

We don't need hate speech laws. Fair enough to legislate against inciting violence or vandalism. But if I decide to hate something, or someone, I'll dam well say so. (Not that I do - currently, but you never know who or what is going to get right up your nose). So legislate by all means but start by forgetting the inappropriate and corny 'hate speech' moniker. (Which would be close to impossible to define for a kick-off)

artemis
28-06-2021, 05:14 PM
We don't need hate speech laws. Fair enough to legislate against inciting violence or vandalism. But if I decide to hate something, or someone, I'll dam well say so. (Not that I do - currently, but you never know who or what is going to get right up your nose). So legislate by all means but start by forgetting the inappropriate and corny 'hate speech' moniker. (Which would be close to impossible to define for a kick-off)

The PM's position on the Christchurch call dictates some action must be announced.

Anyway, apparently the courts will be deciding. Which depends on what Police decide to prosecute.

(Planning to load up on popcorn company shares. )

Zaphod
28-06-2021, 05:49 PM
The PM's position on the Christchurch call dictates some action must be announced.

Anyway, apparently the courts will be deciding. Which depends on what Police decide to prosecute.

(Planning to load up on popcorn company shares. )

I'd certainly hate to be the test case!

Perhaps the first case could be brought due to backlash against antivaxers if we fail to meet heard immunity targets, and are forced to continue fortress NZ? Hopefully not.

BlackPeter
28-06-2021, 05:55 PM
I'd certainly hate to be the test case!

Perhaps the first case could be brought due to backlash against antivaxers if we fail to meet heard immunity targets, and are forced to continue fortress NZ? Hopefully not.

I'd love to see a backlash against antivaxers ...

Hope loving is allowed in the proposed law?

peetter
28-06-2021, 05:59 PM
Its never that simple, a nurse may own a home here or be with a partner with good income or may simply prefer to live in NZ - pure speculation on your part

I specificaly mentioned starting nurse, because young people without any ties are the most likely to leave. I did the same thing. However much I might like my place of origin, if I can make better living somewhere else, I'd be stupid not to.

peetter
28-06-2021, 06:02 PM
I'd certainly hate to be the test case!

Perhaps the first case could be brought due to backlash against antivaxers if we fail to meet heard immunity targets, and are forced to continue fortress NZ? Hopefully not.

I wonder if the hate law is going to be universal or if it will specifically allow hate against middle aged white guys :D

fungus pudding
28-06-2021, 08:09 PM
I wonder if the hate law is going to be universal or if it will specifically allow hate against middle aged white guys :D

Of course it will. After all discrimination laws allow discrimination but only if it favours a minority.

Bjauck
29-06-2021, 08:35 AM
I wonder if the hate law is going to be universal or if it will specifically allow hate against middle aged white guys :D

Young people are affected too. Admission to some University Courses can be determined by "verified" racial or national ancestry under the "Mirror on Society" selection policies. It will be interesting to see how criticism of such policies will be tolerated, and to what extent, under the new proposals.

dobby41
29-06-2021, 09:09 AM
Of course it will. After all discrimination laws allow discrimination but only if it favours a minority.

Positive discrimination (which is what you are talking about) is quite different to hate speech.

fungus pudding
29-06-2021, 09:34 AM
Positive discrimination (which is what you are talking about) is quite different to hate speech.

No. It's only a tiny difference - just the name. Otherwise they both remove someone's rights.

jonu
29-06-2021, 09:39 AM
Newshub poll of currently more than 8000 votes is sitting at 86% against the "Hate Speech" laws. Vote here

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/06/have-your-say-do-you-support-the-government-s-proposed-hate-speech-laws.html

Let's see if Ardern is stupid enough to push on. My bet is a "Reset" and they will have another crack. Ardern loves a Review and a Reset after sniffing the political wind.

Remember the Comrades speech?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rsxFaq6Ig

A leopard doesn't change its spots. Ardern wants to tell you how to think, what to say. She described compulsory QR scanning as an "inconvenience" in recent days. That's how she describes a removal of Freedom of Movement Rights. But hey, there's the royal wedding to look forward to.

Entrep
29-06-2021, 11:08 AM
https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/06/maorification-of-smiling-zombies/

jonu
29-06-2021, 11:20 AM
https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/06/maorification-of-smiling-zombies/

Karl hit an extraordinary number of nails on the head. He is older than I am, but I vaguely remember him in my childhood, his parents were friends of my parents. They raised him well.

Sir Ten
29-06-2021, 01:48 PM
Required an offshore party to write it, but a succinct summary (should be free to read).

https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/06/maorification-of-smiling-zombies/?_cldee=bWF0dEBzdGFubGV5cG9pbnRjYXBpdGFsLmNvLm56&recipientid=contact-5aa93ea923fde6119406005056a36616-6c74fb8265d84dd3b09ddf2397652661&esid=fba02284-c250-4a4e-89e6-dc0d852dc7ef

New Zealanders returning after a few years abroad might wonder whether they’ve blundered into a parallel universe. A government that is pitifully thin on ministerial ability and experience is busy re-inventing the wheel, and doing it at such speed that the public has barely had time to catch its breath. To quote one seasoned political observer: ‘It seems like a hostile takeover of our country is underway and most people feel powerless to do anything about it’.

The government has done its best to ensure continued media support for this ideological project by creating a $55 million slush fund, supposedly to support ‘public interest journalism’ but available only to news organisations that commit themselves to the promotion of the so-called principles (never satisfactorily defined) of the 1840 Treaty of Waitangi. What has been framed as an idealistic commitment to the survival of journalism is, in other words, a cynical and opportunistic bid for control over the news media at a time when the industry is floundering. This is a government so shameless, or perhaps so convinced of its own untouchability, that it is brazenly buying the media’s compliance.

jonu
29-06-2021, 01:59 PM
Required an offshore party to write it, but a succinct summary (should be free to read).

https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/06/maorification-of-smiling-zombies/?_cldee=bWF0dEBzdGFubGV5cG9pbnRjYXBpdGFsLmNvLm56&recipientid=contact-5aa93ea923fde6119406005056a36616-6c74fb8265d84dd3b09ddf2397652661&esid=fba02284-c250-4a4e-89e6-dc0d852dc7ef

New Zealanders returning after a few years abroad might wonder whether they’ve blundered into a parallel universe. A government that is pitifully thin on ministerial ability and experience is busy re-inventing the wheel, and doing it at such speed that the public has barely had time to catch its breath. To quote one seasoned political observer: ‘It seems like a hostile takeover of our country is underway and most people feel powerless to do anything about it’.

The government has done its best to ensure continued media support for this ideological project by creating a $55 million slush fund, supposedly to support ‘public interest journalism’ but available only to news organisations that commit themselves to the promotion of the so-called principles (never satisfactorily defined) of the 1840 Treaty of Waitangi. What has been framed as an idealistic commitment to the survival of journalism is, in other words, a cynical and opportunistic bid for control over the news media at a time when the industry is floundering. This is a government so shameless, or perhaps so convinced of its own untouchability, that it is brazenly buying the media’s compliance.

Karl Dufresne is a Kiwi. Based in Wellington I think.

Blue Skies
29-06-2021, 08:31 PM
Newshub poll of currently more than 8000 votes is sitting at 86% against the "Hate Speech" laws. Vote here

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/06/have-your-say-do-you-support-the-government-s-proposed-hate-speech-laws.html

Let's see if Ardern is stupid enough to push on. My bet is a "Reset" and they will have another crack. Ardern loves a Review and a Reset after sniffing the political wind.

Remember the Comrades speech?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rsxFaq6Ig

A leopard doesn't change its spots. Ardern wants to tell you how to think, what to say. She described compulsory QR scanning as an "inconvenience" in recent days. That's how she describes a removal of Freedom of Movement Rights. But hey, there's the royal wedding to look forward to.


There seems to be some misunderstanding or confusion, there is not even any Draft legislation on this review of Hate Speech.
At this stage it's merely a Discussion Paper on the recommendation of Royal Commission inquiry, so yours & others anger & obvious outrage at a Discussion Paper seeking public feedback seems a little surprising.

The aim is to prevent individuals or groups stirring up & inciting hatred of others, which most people would think desirable.
Yes it's difficult to formulate legislation around this without capturing or omitting unintended actions, however, that doesn't mean its not worth trying.

Some through misunderstanding or with vested interests or political motives (JC) seem keen to misrepresent & frame it in the most provocative, polarising & divisive terms and sink any discussion before it has even started.

jonu
29-06-2021, 08:48 PM
There seems to be some misunderstanding or confusion, there is not even any Draft legislation on this review of Hate Speech.
At this stage it's merely a Discussion Paper on the recommendation of Royal Commission inquiry, so yours & others anger & obvious outrage at a Discussion Paper seeking public feedback seems a little surprising.

The aim is to prevent individuals or groups stirring up & inciting hatred of others, which most people would think desirable.
Yes it's difficult to formulate legislation around this without capturing or omitting unintended actions, however, that doesn't mean its not worth trying.

Some through misunderstanding or with vested interests or political motives (JC) seem keen to misrepresent & frame it in the most provocative, polarising & divisive terms and sink any discussion before it has even started.

Well most of the country's political journos disagree with you for a start. Yes, they have put out a discussion document. One that neither Ardern or Faafoi seem to understand the implications of. Furthermore, Ardern has been downright misleading on what is proposed.

Ardern's government's arrogance is on full display, as is their true agenda. I've thought for some time that the media would turn on Ardern, despite the millions of bribes she has fed the industry. I think perhaps she has has lit the touch paper. How long before the "reset" I wonder. Methinks it will be too late in this instance. Her hand has been shown and the media smell blood.

peetter
29-06-2021, 10:16 PM
There seems to be some misunderstanding or confusion, there is not even any Draft legislation on this review of Hate Speech.
At this stage it's merely a Discussion Paper on the recommendation of Royal Commission inquiry, so yours & others anger & obvious outrage at a Discussion Paper seeking public feedback seems a little surprising.

The aim is to prevent individuals or groups stirring up & inciting hatred of others, which most people would think desirable.
Yes it's difficult to formulate legislation around this without capturing or omitting unintended actions, however, that doesn't mean its not worth trying.

Some through misunderstanding or with vested interests or political motives (JC) seem keen to misrepresent & frame it in the most provocative, polarising & divisive terms and sink any discussion before it has even started.


Who's to decide what's inciting hate? Lately you're labeled as hating for speaking out about anything. I have some controversial opinions a lot of people share, but are afraid to say out loud. If I say them publicly and some crazy activist doesn't like it, what happens?
You know there was a lot of people imprisoned and executed in Soviet Union for unpopular opinions before people finaly got fed up and revolution happened. It's bit concerning that first world countries are heading in that direction.

jonu
30-06-2021, 07:54 AM
See how cynical and desperate our government is. The threats described here are already covered in the Crimes Act.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/fresh-threats-against-al-noor-mosque-as-country-debates-hate-speech-reforms/ar-AALAEOZ?ocid=msedgntp

Andrew Little and Ardern are currently two of the most serious threats to NZ society. Intellectual lightweights that would do away with our freedoms in a heartbeat to support their ill thought out agenda.

Bjauck
30-06-2021, 10:37 AM
See how cynical and desperate our government is. The threats described here are already covered in the Crimes Act.

...

I was bemused by one of the explanations given by seeking reforming "hate laws" was that the wording behind some of the existing laws was "archaic". Surely there is a reason for that as the existing wording has legal precedent (including common law caselaw) behind the definitions. That helps creates certainty of definition and application of the law, a fundamental tenet, or at least goal, for a modern democracy, I would have thought. Amendments can be added to cover additional communication methods.

Up-to-the-minute or "on trend" wording may perhaps be more indistinct and uncertain. Therefore requiring subsequent legal argument (time and resources!) to help determine its meaning and application.

artemis
30-06-2021, 12:00 PM
I was bemused by one of the explanations given by seeking reforming "hate laws" was that the wording behind some of the existing laws was "archaic". Surely there is a reason for that as the existing wording has legal precedent (including common law caselaw) behind the definitions. That helps creates certainty of definition and application of the law, a fundamental tenet, or at least goal, for a modern democracy, I would have thought. Amendments can be added to cover additional communication methods.

Up-to-the-minute or "on trend" wording may perhaps be more indistinct and uncertain. Therefore requiring subsequent legal argument (time and resources!) to help determine its meaning and application.

Good post, bjauck. Is it cynical to wonder if your last 2 sentences are the intent? We were told we'll know it if we see it.

Blue Skies
30-06-2021, 12:50 PM
Who's to decide what's inciting hate? Lately you're labeled as hating for speaking out about anything. I have some controversial opinions a lot of people share, but are afraid to say out loud. If I say them publicly and some crazy activist doesn't like it, what happens?
You know there was a lot of people imprisoned and executed in Soviet Union for unpopular opinions before people finaly got fed up and revolution happened. It's bit concerning that first world countries are heading in that direction.



The govt has invited feedback & here's your opportunity to make a submission if you have concerns.

Public submissions on the Discussion Document open today and close 6 August.
Here's a link to the govt's Discussion Document.



https://www.justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/Incitement-Discussion-Document.pdf

tim23
30-06-2021, 09:01 PM
See how cynical and desperate our government is. The threats described here are already covered in the Crimes Act.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/fresh-threats-against-al-noor-mosque-as-country-debates-hate-speech-reforms/ar-AALAEOZ?ocid=msedgntp

Andrew Little and Ardern are currently two of the most serious threats to NZ society. Intellectual lightweights that would do away with our freedoms in a heartbeat to support their ill thought out agenda.

Silly you - they don't need to be desperate check their opposition - your lot are just useless

jonu
30-06-2021, 09:08 PM
Silly you - they don't need to be desperate check their opposition - your lot are just useless

Try playing the ball tim23. Are the threats already covered in law? Why is Ardern pushing this agenda?

BTW, who are my lot?

tim23
30-06-2021, 09:16 PM
Try playing the ball tim23. Are the threats already covered in law? Why is Ardern pushing this agenda?

BTW, who are my lot?


Even Chris Finlayson is turning against you - what a mess your lot are in

jonu
30-06-2021, 09:55 PM
Even Chris Finlayson is turning against you - what a mess your lot are in

Again, who are my lot?

Again, why is Ardern pushing this agenda to crush our freedoms to fix a problem that isn't there? To incite violence is already a crime.

RTM
01-07-2021, 09:18 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/deputy-pm-grant-robertsons-merciless-roast-of-judith-collins-and-the-national-partys-woes/OHAVY3JSUQJRVNSXOUTEV3UX6U/

Hilarious !

iceman
01-07-2021, 09:48 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/deputy-pm-grant-robertsons-merciless-roast-of-judith-collins-and-the-national-partys-woes/OHAVY3JSUQJRVNSXOUTEV3UX6U/

Hilarious !

I watched it and yes it was witty and suitable for a circus. However, I wish he spent a few minutes on explaining how he has blown $57 BILLION dollars on mostly useless and totally unrelated (to the stated aim) expenditure https://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/budgets/covid-19-funding-allocation-expenditure

But he neither wants to nor can explain it, a bit like the PM and Justice Minister can not explain the proposed hate speech law.

Balance
01-07-2021, 09:49 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/deputy-pm-grant-robertsons-merciless-roast-of-judith-collins-and-the-national-partys-woes/OHAVY3JSUQJRVNSXOUTEV3UX6U/

Hilarious !

It's good - just as John Key used to roast Labour during its constant leadership changes during his term. :D

iceman
01-07-2021, 09:52 AM
Another double post. Hopefully site owners will fix this soon.

Joshuatree
01-07-2021, 09:54 AM
:t_up:Indeed it is,Robertson reminds me of David Langes quick witted humour . Never a truer a word in jest precisely.Even many national MP's couldn't suppress their laughter.

jonu
01-07-2021, 10:02 AM
:t_up:Indeed it is,Robertson reminds me ofd avid Langes quick witted humour . Never a truer a word in jest precisely.Even many national MP's couldn't suppress their laughter.

Yes, witty and close to the bone. Hardly surprising with the number of speech writers and PR people Ardern's government is employing. Sadly it was being used disingenuously to mask Ardern's problems with the Hate Speech fiasco. Robertson climbing into Collins over normal Party disciplinary procedure and likening it to suppression of free speech may have been funny in the circumstances, but is what any political party does, including Robertson's own caucus and Cabinet.

Joshuatree
01-07-2021, 10:06 AM
Just hope Balance learns to curb his hate writing in time.

Joshuatree
01-07-2021, 10:10 AM
Im so thankful we've got the far far better party governing.It would be an absolute disaster,catastrophic if National were at the controls , shiver me timbers.Meglomaniac Judith Muldoon with buckets of knives, just imagine it.:eek2:

fungus pudding
01-07-2021, 10:36 AM
Another double post. Hopefully site owners will fix this soon.

At least you can post. As F. Dagg would have said, 'you don't know how lucky you are'. My wonderful epistles seem to disappear into cyberspace.

jonu
01-07-2021, 10:38 AM
Approx 16 months since we closed the borders and I have yet to hear a clear exit strategy from Ardern's government.

Are we going to live with Covid? Do we have thousands of dedicated ICU beds and ventilators ready?

All I'm hearing is further, more entrenched curbs on Human Rights. Compulsory monitoring of Freedom of Movement described by Ardern as an "inconvenience".

Hate Speech laws with harsh sentences to supposedly cover a need that is already catered for in the Crimes Act.

Her agenda is becoming clearer by the day. It has little to do with Covid.

Bjauck
01-07-2021, 10:49 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/deputy-pm-grant-robertsons-merciless-roast-of-judith-collins-and-the-national-partys-woes/OHAVY3JSUQJRVNSXOUTEV3UX6U/

Hilarious ! He was in full form. Let's hope he can turn in as good a performance with his portfolios.

Bjauck
01-07-2021, 10:55 AM
It's good - just as John Key used to roast Labour during its constant leadership changes during his term. :D After two general election victories in a row The Party in power become like England Soccer fans chanting in a game against Germany.

jonu
01-07-2021, 11:18 AM
Right at the time Ardern's government is drafting law on a replacement for the RMA, her government is ramming through SNA's and water quality measures, to have them in place beforehand. The RMA reform is meant to make it less restrictive and less expensive.

It would appear that they are making the current RMA so restrictive that anything will appear an improvement.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/125597870/grey-mayor-disgusted-with-james-shaw-over-comments-about-pkeh-farmers

Balance
01-07-2021, 12:14 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/445899/officials-try-to-track-14-000-people-to-bill-them-for-managed-isolation-fees

Turning down advice to charge returnees while they are checking into quarantine or when they are checking out!

Another example of how clueless Cindy & her team of incompetents really are - trying to chase quarantine fees after travellers have long left the facilities and in some cases, gone over to Australia.

dobby41
01-07-2021, 12:16 PM
He was in full form. Let's hope he can turn in as good a performance with his portfolios.

Doing OK so far
"The operating balance before gains and losses was a deficit of $3.6b. The Budget forecasts had assumed a deficit of $9.4b for the period, rising to around $15b for the year to June 30."

Joshuatree
01-07-2021, 12:36 PM
Alot of fear about change.Its way overdue and its happening with this doing govt.Fishing boats bringing in all the catch and cameras on boats a game changer for just one example.

jonu
01-07-2021, 12:40 PM
Alot of fear about change.Its way overdue and its happening with this doing govt.Fishing boats bringing in all the catch and cameras on boats a game changer for just one example.

Care to elaborate?

Do you consider curtailments to Human Rights treasured by Western Democracies to be "way overdue"?

Joshuatree
01-07-2021, 12:47 PM
Hate speech has to go.No place for hate here.

jonu
01-07-2021, 01:15 PM
Hate speech has to go.No place for hate here.

Do you hate Hate Speech. Do you hate the perpetrators of Hate Speech?

Please detail what speech you consider will warrant multi year jail terms, that isn't already covered in the Crimes Act.

Joshuatree
01-07-2021, 01:25 PM
Reminds me of all the reactive , knee-jerk reactions over the anti smacking law. We are a better people for it, learning to find non violent solutions.Same with hate, learn, to respond not react, make an informed response, grow a little, great opp for me , you ,all.

777
01-07-2021, 01:57 PM
Hate speech has to go.No place for hate here.\\

Your post 1545 would probably qualify as hate speech. Don't say it wouldn't because even the princess doesn't know.

dobby41
01-07-2021, 02:10 PM
\\

Your post 1545 would probably qualify as hate speech. Don't say it wouldn't because even the princess doesn't know.

I doubt it - another example of the scaremongering by people ideologically opposed to change.

jonu
01-07-2021, 02:51 PM
Reminds me of all the reactive , knee-jerk reactions over the anti smacking law. We are a better people for it, learning to find non violent solutions.Same with hate, learn, to respond not react, make an informed response, grow a little, great opp for me , you ,all.

The problem is you aren't responding, you're just ducking the questions by spouting a bunch more. What is Ardern's government going to fix that isn't already covered in law? And why does she need to further impinge on the rights of Free Speech to do it?

Blue Skies
01-07-2021, 03:09 PM
Care to elaborate?

Do you consider curtailments to Human Rights treasured by Western Democracies to be "way overdue"?


The way I see it, it's just about balancing the rights of Free Speech against the Rights of people or groups to live free from persecution & fear.
Sometimes these come into conflict & you can't completely impose the Rights of one over the top of the other, i.e. not all one way.

Of course it's incredibly complicated esp in this age of narcisism where there's an obsession about self & identity.
I read today an influencer saying if you can be trans-gender, you can now also apparently be trans-racial ie a British born & raised person deciding they will identify as Korean despite having no Korean relatives & never having been there. Really? At what point do you respect & validate their sense of self v responding they're completely neurotic?
And what about the Czech President calling Trans-Gender people disgusting, V the Pope's discrimination against LGBT people & rights & gays in the clergy & describing acts of homosexuality as a sin to millions of followers ? (as does Destiny Church's Bishop Tamaki from memory)
It's a minefield!

No wonder Adern & Fafoi are having trouble defining exactly what they believe will constitute Hate Speech, but isn't that what this review is all about, and importantly isn't it ultimately for the Courts to decide?

jonu
01-07-2021, 03:32 PM
The way I see it, it's just about balancing the rights of Free Speech against the Rights of people or groups to live free from persecution & fear.
Sometimes these come into conflict & you can't completely impose the Rights of one over the top of the other, i.e. not all one way.

Of course it's incredibly complicated esp in this age of narcisism where there's an obsession about self & identity.
I read today an influencer saying if you can be trans-gender, you can now also apparently be trans-racial ie a British born & raised person deciding they will identify as Korean despite having no Korean relatives & never having been there. Really? At what point do you respect & validate their sense of self v responding they're completely neurotic?
And what about the Czech President calling Trans-Gender people disgusting, V the Pope's discrimination against LGBT people & rights & gays in the clergy & describing acts of homosexuality as a sin to millions of followers ? (as does Destiny Church's Bishop Tamaki from memory)
It's a minefield!

No wonder Adern & Fafoi are having trouble defining exactly what they believe will constitute Hate Speech, but isn't that what this review is all about, and importantly isn't it ultimately for the Courts to decide?

You raise some good points.

The "Korean trans-racial" is merely taking the whole trans farce to its logical conclusion.

The Catholic Church has been consistent for two thousand years in declaring homosexual acts sinful. Israel Folau (whose faith, incidently, teaches against the Catholics) paid a high price for merely quoting St Paul on a whole bunch of sinful behaviours, causing the ARU to have to settle out of Court. Neither party incites violence, it is their moral position.

You are correct, it is a minefield. It is also a problem that doesn't need fixing. We have laws covering incitement to violence. Ardern and Faafoi have no idea where it could lead.

As for it being for the Courts to decide....I expect a competent government to enact laws on the basis that they know what they are trying to protect or enforce, and have ensured there are no unintended consequences. At this point Ardern and Faafoi haven't come anywhere close.

fungus pudding
01-07-2021, 03:54 PM
You raise some good points.

The "Korean trans-racial" is merely taking the whole trans farce to its logical conclusion.

The Catholic Church has been consistent for two thousand years in declaring homosexual acts sinful. Israel Folau (whose faith, incidently, teaches against the Catholics) paid a high price for merely quoting St Paul on a whole bunch of sinful behaviours, causing the ARU to have to settle out of Court. Neither party incites violence, it is their moral position.

You are correct, it is a minefield. It is also a problem that doesn't need fixing. We have laws covering incitement to violence. Ardern and Faafoi have no idea where it could lead.

As for it being for the Courts to decide....I expect a competent government to enact laws on the basis that they know what they are trying to protect or enforce, and have ensured there are no unintended consequences. At this point Ardern and Faafoi haven't come anywhere close.

Yeah, the catholic chuch does call homosexuals sinful, but that's not hate speech. Even the Pope's boss said he loved sinners. Ratbags and the goodies - one and all. Didn't hate anyone - it's in the book.

Bjauck
01-07-2021, 04:27 PM

The Catholic Church has been consistent for two thousand years in declaring homosexual acts sinful. Israel Folau (whose faith, incidently, teaches against the Catholics) paid a high price for merely quoting St Paul on a whole bunch of sinful behaviours, causing the ARU to have to settle out of Court. Neither party incites violence, it is their moral position.…
Could you direct me to St Paul’s actual words that you claim Folau quoted. As I understand it, Folau added his own interpretation to a King James Bible verse he summarised.

Bjauck
01-07-2021, 04:29 PM

The Catholic Church has been consistent for two thousand years in declaring homosexual acts sinful. Israel Folau (whose faith, incidently, teaches against the Catholics) paid a high price for merely quoting St Paul on a whole bunch of sinful behaviours, causing the ARU to have to settle out of Court. Neither party incites violence, it is their moral position.…
Could you direct me to St Paul’s actual words that you claim Folau quoted. As I understand it, Folau added his own interpretation to a King James Bible verse he summarised.

Roman Catholic teachings on homosexuality developed over time during the convocations of ecumenical councils.

jonu
01-07-2021, 04:31 PM
And the hits just keep coming. David Seymour, who is proving to be one hell of an Opposition MP, further highlights the Separatist and racially discriminatory agenda of Ardern's government.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/ethno-state-agenda-act-claims-m%C4%81ori-procurement-policy-is-creating-further-ethnic-division/ar-AALDQe6?ocid=msedgntp

Apparently racism is fine and dandy with Ardern and her cohort. To be encouraged. Even to the extent of making entirely unsubstantiated claims about "Maori businesses". What happened to people being engaged on the basis of merit rather than race?

peetter
01-07-2021, 04:41 PM
Yeah, the catholic chuch does call homosexuals sinful, but that's not hate speech. Even the Pope's boss said he loved sinners. Ratbags and the goodies - one and all. Didn't hate anyone - it's in the book.

What approach has the other religion that calls homosexuals sinful?

It's easy to talk against Christians, because it's not seen as hatefull to dump on them.

Disclaimer. I belong to no religion, I find sky wizards are not needed anymore.

fungus pudding
01-07-2021, 04:46 PM
What approach has the other religion that calls homosexuals sinful?

It's easy to talk against Christians, because it's not seen as hatefull to dump on them.

Disclaimer. I belong to no religion, I find sky wizards are not needed anymore.

I do not know. I'm an atheist Anyway I agree critisising or laughing at them is not hateful.

peetter
01-07-2021, 04:54 PM
I do not know. I'm an atheist Anyway I agree critisising or laughing at them is not hateful.

So you'd say criticizing and laughing at let's say "non-binary" people would be considered as not hateful under the new law which seems to specificaly aim to protect them?

jonu
01-07-2021, 04:59 PM
Could you direct me to St Paul’s actual words that you claim Folau quoted. As I understand it, Folau added his own interpretation to a King James Bible verse he summarised.

Roman Catholic teachings on homosexuality developed over time during the convocations of ecumenical councils.

Read Galatians and Corinthians. Folau may have paraphrased.

The theology behind Catholic teaching on homosexuality, adultery and the whole list, including a bunch people don't seem much interested in, developed over centuries, but the teaching itself goes all the way back, and was consistent with Jewish teaching of the time. Christ just made it clear you shouldn't be stoned to death for it.

Anyway, if the Qantas/Folau saga taught us anything, get ready to lose your job, get a hefty fine or serve jail time for holding and expressing a moral position against someone on the "protected" list. That's where Ardern is headed, whether she is smart enough to see it is the scariest part. She's either too stupid to see the unintended consequences, or the consequences aren't unintended.

fungus pudding
01-07-2021, 05:14 PM
So you'd say criticizing and laughing at let's say "non-binary" people would be considered as not hateful under the new law which seems to specificaly aim to protect them?

No I wouldn't. I'd say completing a statement with a question mark is a bit of a giveaway i.e. it tells me a lot. Critisisng and laughing at an adult who believes in fairy tales, Santa Claus or a religion is far different than crtisising someone for the way they are.

peetter
01-07-2021, 05:24 PM
No I wouldn't. I'd say completing a statement with a question mark is a bit of a giveaway i.e. it tells me a lot. Critisisng and laughing at an adult who believes in fairy tales, Santa Claus or a religion is far different than crtisising someone for the way they are.

It was a question, why woudn't I complete it with question mark?

Anyway your answer is a hypocrisy and double standard at that. Non binary is as much a fairy tale as a religion.

Joshuatree
01-07-2021, 05:51 PM
Excellent , thanks jonu for the link.This will encourage support and lift many maori to genuine higher opportunities, goals and even the playing field a little. Love the aboriginal and torre strait islander examples.Lets give it a try, a win/win.


https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...?ocid=msedgntp (https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/ethno-state-agenda-act-claims-m%C4%81ori-procurement-policy-is-creating-further-ethnic-division/ar-AALDQe6?ocid=msedgntp)




then-Māori Development Minister Nanaia Mahuta said international evidence showed procurement quotes for indigenous businesses "resulted in increased wealth, financial stability and employment opportunities, as well as wider social and community wellbeing benefits for indigenous peoples".
Jackson, who took on the role after last year's election, in December said contracts with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander businesses in Australia have gone from $6 million to "almost $2 billion in just four years".

jonu
01-07-2021, 06:01 PM
Excellent , thanks jonu for the link.This will encourage support and lift many maori to genuine higher opportunities, goals and even the playing field a little. Love the aboriginal and torre strait islander examples.Lets give it a try, a win/win.

Unfortunately it is a win/loss. A loss for all those capable businesses that miss out due to being the wrong racial group. Appalling! Shame on you for such racist bigotry!

How about an Asian quota? People of Asian descent number around the same as Maori in this country. What about Pasifika?

Where does your racial prejudice begin and end?

Will we have a LGBT+ alphabet soup quota as well? Why not, we may as well go the full discrimination hog ay JT?

fungus pudding
01-07-2021, 06:33 PM
It was a question, why woudn't I complete it with question mark?

Anyway your answer is a hypocrisy and double standard at that. Non binary is as much a fairy tale as a religion.

....double posted......

fungus pudding
01-07-2021, 06:33 PM
It was a question, why woudn't I complete it with question mark?

Anyway your answer is a hypocrisy and double standard at that. Non binary is as much a fairy tale as a religion.

A question would begin 'Would you say......'
'So you'd say ....etc ' is making a statement, although t is known as a 'leading question' but it's simply a statement in disguise, designed to extract agreement - as any lawyer will attest.
As far as your second point goes - your getting confused with the different types of fairies.

Joshuatree
01-07-2021, 06:39 PM
Unfortunately it is a win/loss. A loss for all those capable businesses that miss out due to being the wrong racial group. Appalling! Shame on you for such racist bigotry!

How about an Asian quota? People of Asian descent number around the same as Maori in this country. What about Pasifika?

Where does your racial prejudice begin and end?

Will we have a LGBT+ alphabet soup quota as well? Why not, we may as well go the full discrimination hog ay JT?

Wow a tantrum close to hate,,you have to own that if that's conceivable ,... to grow and be flexible to improvements for ALL. Meanwhile we adapt and grow to constant change.No room for stale stick in the mud's haters.

Hard to keep up for some.
A raft of new govt policies kick in tomorrow.

Benefits go up $20 and more next year.

Training incentive allowance expands

Paid parental leave rates increasing

Tourism businesses operating on conservation land have another 6 months of fees waived.

This gov t is working for all.

Joshuatree
01-07-2021, 06:39 PM
Unfortunately it is a win/loss. A loss for all those capable businesses that miss out due to being the wrong racial group. Appalling! Shame on you for such racist bigotry!

How about an Asian quota? People of Asian descent number around the same as Maori in this country. What about Pasifika?

Where does your racial prejudice begin and end?

Will we have a LGBT+ alphabet soup quota as well? Why not, we may as well go the full discrimination hog ay JT?

Wow a tantrum close to hate,,you have to own that if that's conceivable ,... to grow and be flexible to improvements for ALL. Meanwhile we adapt and grow to constant change.No room for stale stick in the mud's haters.

Hard to keep up for some.
A raft of new govt policies kick in tomorrow.

Benefits go up $20 and more next year.

Training incentive allowance expands

Paid parental leave rates increasing

Tourism businesses operating on conservation land have another 6 months of fees waived.

This gov t is working for all.

Joshuatree
01-07-2021, 06:45 PM
Forgot about
The healthy homes standard

EV and hybrids have become cheaper with the rebates.35% of kiwis currently buy them to reduce their carbon emissions.The transition is growing but EV's have to get cheaper and will do as tKeup increases and the tech evolves.

Joshuatree
01-07-2021, 06:46 PM
Forgot about
The healthy homes standard

EV and hybrids have become cheaper with the rebates.35% of kiwis currently buy them to reduce their carbon emissions.The transition is growing but EV's have to get cheaper and will do as tKeup increases and the tech evolves.

jonu
01-07-2021, 06:56 PM
Wow a tantrum close to hate,,you have to own that if that's conceivable ,... to grow and be flexible to improvements for ALL. Meanwhile we adapt and grow to constant change.No room for stale stick in the mud's haters.

How about addressing your support for racist procurement policy? How is being anti-racist (me) being a stick in the mud? Why is being race based discriminatory (you) acceptable?

fungus pudding
01-07-2021, 07:12 PM
Wow a tantrum close to hate,,you have to own that if that's conceivable ,... to grow and be flexible to improvements for ALL. Meanwhile we adapt and grow to constant change.No room for stale stick in the mud's haters.

Hard to keep up for some.
A raft of new govt policies kick in tomorrow.

Benefits go up $20 and more next year.

Training incentive allowance expands

Paid parental leave rates increasing

Tourism businesses operating on conservation land have another 6 months of fees waived.

This gov t is working for all.

Did the bandit, Robin Hood, work for everybody?

Bjauck
01-07-2021, 07:55 PM

Anyway, if the Qantas/Folau saga taught us anything, get ready to lose your job, get a hefty fine or serve jail time for holding and expressing a moral position against someone on the "protected" list. That's where Ardern is headed, whether she is smart enough to see it is the scariest part. She's either too stupid to see the unintended consequences, or the consequences aren't unintended.
At what point does expressing your own particular moral standpoint become publicly haranguing certain groups of people?

I guess you can be free to embellish a religious text, reinterpret it and repackage it in a way to suit whatever message you wish to broadcast to the public. That may well be your own particular moral position. However there will be a conflict when your employer’s well-known position is to reach out and include to the parts of the community you are haranguing. If the employer’s image is being scuppered by one of its own high profile well-paid employees then there will be an incompatibility.

BlackPeter
02-07-2021, 09:17 AM
As for it being for the Courts to decide....I expect a competent government to enact laws on the basis that they know what they are trying to protect or enforce, and have ensured there are no unintended consequences. At this point Ardern and Faafoi haven't come anywhere close.

I hate to admit it (ouch - does this qualify me for a penalty?) - but I couldn't have sad that better myself!

BlackPeter
02-07-2021, 09:49 AM
This gov t is working for all.

What a piece of B/S ... I find your post without truth and merit and it is highly objectionable and insulting.

Example 1:
My wife is (given that we don't live in South Auckland) just in risk group 3 re Covid vaccinations (otherwise it would be group 2), given that she has a health condition - and yes, Covid would likely kill her given that Chemotherapie previously weakened her lungs.

She is as well close to 65 ... but so far nobody has any clue when she gets her vaccine. We live in Canterbury, you see ... and therefore don't seem to matter for the government. On the other hand - healthy 20 years old in other parts of the country are randomly invited for immunisation.

Example 2:
Heard the story about people with a work visa in their passport "New Zealand the right choice"? Well, This visa is lying. There are many essential workers in our country who have been lured in with the promise that their family and loved ones can follow - and then we closed our borders on them (despite keeping empty MIT facilities). Our anti immigration minister - could hardly suppress his grinning on TV when he said that oh - what a pity, we now unfortunately can't let their loved and families into the country ... well, we all have to suffer, haven't we? He was clearly not interested in being kind (or just smart - remember - we do reed these essential workers, otherwise we would not call them essential"?).

This government might work for some comrades and some beneficiaries, but it clearly does not work for everybody. It does not work for us ... and the mess they are producing is getting deeper day by day.

Sure - they are increasing the benefits for some with the money they take from others - i.e. everybody involved, but that does not make them work for all. Maybe you just wanted to say the government works all of us for their benefit?

Inept, inhumane and cynical bunch.

jonu
02-07-2021, 12:39 PM
Ardern has been caught out telling the electorate lies in the election campaign.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/documents-reveal-government-s-multi-million-offer-to-rio-tinto-despite-ruling-out-a-subsidy/ar-AALFA85?ocid=msedgntp

Within months they offered Rio a further incentive payment.

How arrogant of Robertson to dismiss it just because the offer was rejected by Rio. He's effectively saying, it doesn't matter that we lied, because the consequences of our lie didn't come to fruition.

Bjauck
02-07-2021, 03:11 PM
Ardern has been caught out telling the electorate lies in the election campaign.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/documents-reveal-government-s-multi-million-offer-to-rio-tinto-despite-ruling-out-a-subsidy/ar-AALFA85?ocid=msedgntp

Within months they offered Rio a further incentive payment.

How arrogant of Robertson to dismiss it just because the offer was rejected by Rio. He's effectively saying, it doesn't matter that we lied, because the consequences of our lie didn't come to fruition.
Didn't 51% government owned Meridian Energy give the smelter a sweetheart deal on prices in the end? So they got a "subsidy" from the taxpayer one way or another.

"Government ministers declined RNZ's request for an interview."
That is not surprising as they are too busy trying to hide behind smoke and mirrors!

Joshuatree
02-07-2021, 03:39 PM
What a piece of B/S ... I find your post without truth and merit and it is highly objectionable and insulting.

Example 1:
My wife is (given that we don't live in South Auckland) just in risk group 3 re Covid vaccinations (otherwise it would be group 2), given that she has a health condition - and yes, Covid would likely kill her given that Chemotherapie previously weakened her lungs.

She is as well close to 65 ... but so far nobody has any clue when she gets her vaccine. We live in Canterbury, you see ... and therefore don't seem to matter for the government. On the other hand - healthy 20 years old in other parts of the country are randomly invited for immunisation.

Example 2:
Heard the story about people with a work visa in their passport "New Zealand the right choice"? Well, This visa is lying. There are many essential workers in our country who have been lured in with the promise that their family and loved ones can follow - and then we closed our borders on them (despite keeping empty MIT facilities). Our anti immigration minister - could hardly suppress his grinning on TV when he said that oh - what a pity, we now unfortunately can't let their loved and families into the country ... well, we all have to suffer, haven't we? He was clearly not interested in being kind (or just smart - remember - we do reed these essential workers, otherwise we would not call them essential"?).

This government might work for some comrades and some beneficiaries, but it clearly does not work for everybody. It does not work for us ... and the mess they are producing is getting deeper day by day.

Sure - they are increasing the benefits for some with the money they take from others - i.e. everybody involved, but that does not make them work for all. Maybe you just wanted to say the government works all of us for their benefit?

Inept, inhumane and cynical bunch.

You have to own that.Reason over reaction any day, an informed response over losing control anger. Thanks for your opinion part of it anyway. Disagree with you and thank dog we havnt got the other party in Govt. Covid would be rampant here for one with national falling over themselves to open the borders early and beneficaries would be eating grass and burning their furniture to keep warm under Judith Collins the founder of Dirty politics.

777
02-07-2021, 04:55 PM
You have to own that.Reason over reaction any day, an informed response over losing control anger. Thanks for your opinion part of it anyway. Disagree with you and thank dog we havnt got the other party in Govt. Covid would be rampant here for one with national falling over themselves to open the borders early and beneficaries would be eating grass and burning their furniture to keep warm under Judith Collins the founder of Dirty politics.

The rubbish you post is getting worse every day and to think that you honestly believe it is a worry.

Yes National would possibly have done some things differently but we would be close to the same state we are in now.

BlackPeter
02-07-2021, 05:04 PM
You have to own that.Reason over reaction any day, an informed response over losing control anger. Thanks for your opinion part of it anyway. Disagree with you and thank dog we havnt got the other party in Govt. Covid would be rampant here for one with national falling over themselves to open the borders early and beneficaries would be eating grass and burning their furniture to keep warm under Judith Collins the founder of Dirty politics.

It might be easier to understand your response if you try to write proper English and work on some anger management before you respond :p; .

Anyway - I give you that the NZ school system has huge gaps and failings (I assume explaining parts of your response), and here is some news for you: While Labour did throw a lot of money at the education system since it is in power, it did not get one inch better (the education system, but Labour probably as well :) ).

Look - we both agree that there are huge issues in our country - education system producing students just reaching the bottom of other OECD countries, our justice system has huge problems (and I don't mean the problems the so called sensible sentencing club would refer to) - and our health system is - while still surviving - getting frail due to too many useless chiefs and bureaucrats and not enough working Indians. Ah yes - and we are last in the OECD to roll out the Covid vaccine. What an achievement ...

We both might even agree that Labour wants to do the right things ... the problem is just - they don't seem to be able to do anything other than throwing money at problems.

This method works well if your primary intention is to get rid of money, but unfortunately it does not work if you want to get rid of the problems (you could even say - it makes them worse).

Remember the housing crisis? Labour did throw a lot of money at it but didn't make it a bit better. Funny that, particularly considering that all the people with Chinese sounding names (and anybody else from abroad) are not anymore able to come to NZ. We should have plenty of empty houses now, shouldn't we? Labour spent a lot of money and these houses just disappeared ....?

We talked already education. Labour did throw a lot of money at it pumping up teachers salaries. Did this improve our education system? No, of course it did not.

Our justice system is slow and while we like to lock people up, it is not always the right people and it is often not the best thing to do even if we got the right people. Did anything change since Labour arrived? Well, nothing I noticed.

Sure - it was good that the current government managed so far to keep the virus out of the country - and compliments to the hard decision last year to close the borders. However - Australia with a government as far away from Labour as one can think happened to achieve similar results ... so, maybe it was more a combination of good luck and our remoteness instead of Labours genius saving us so far from the virus?

But to close with a high (and I said that before) - I think Jacinda's leadership after the mosque attack in Christchurch was second to none. However - Labour is different to Jacinda, and at some stage we need as well to do other things than coming over the murderous attacks of a mentally impaired person ...

OK - so it was not all bad, but Labour did not fix so far any of the problems they promised to fix.

Did I say that National is better? I didn't, but same as Trumpista's like to outline that everybody is a liar (making their hero look better) are you now trying to imply that everybody is incompetent - meaning we could as well stick around with the current lot?

Show us that Labour can be better - acknowledge their mistakes and show us how they learn from them instead of just trying to pull everybody into the mud.

Too much asked for?

Bjauck
02-07-2021, 05:31 PM
You have to own that.Reason over reaction any day, an informed response over losing control anger. Thanks for your opinion part of it anyway. Disagree with you and thank dog we havnt got the other party in Govt. Covid would be rampant here for one with national falling over themselves to open the borders early and beneficaries would be eating grass and burning their furniture to keep warm under Judith Collins the founder of Dirty politics. If I understand your post correctly - Just because the other side may have been worse, is no reason to gloss over the shortcomings of the side that occupies the Treasury benches.

The vaccine rollout inconsistencies may not all be down to the government in Wellington. The Health Boards are involved too. However The Minister of Health in conjunction with the Ministry has been responsible for setting priorities - including which areas and groups of people have priority. The government had also been under political pressure to target S. Auckland and particular groups for the vaccine rollout. With the travel bubble with Australia, was that still appropriate?

BP clearly gave examples showing that government policy was failing to operate effectively and target those with the most pressing needs. Clearly this government is not working for everybody, perhaps not even for some of the traditional Labour support base, who earn wages and are looking for a home.

Joshuatree
02-07-2021, 05:53 PM
Vaccine roll out as fast as supplies are coming in.To ask for perfection is not the least bit realistic,we have to learn to improve as we go.

BlackPeter
02-07-2021, 06:39 PM
Vaccine roll out as fast as supplies are coming in.To ask for perfection is not the least bit realistic,we have to learn to improve as we go.

Is it really asking for perfection if we just complain that government is playing with peoples life's by dragging the chain and by running a less that competent administration?

You always forget to mention as well that there is a reason that vaccines are coming in so slow to NZ - Our government did not order enough vaccine early enough. Last on the world ... well, in the developed world at least.

Nearly all other OECD countries (and many others including developing nations) did a better job in ordering vaccines and rolling them out - can't be that hard, can it?, but hey - if you are happy enough that we are still beating South Sudan (and some other mainly African countries) in the vaccination roll out, than maybe your standards for a capable government are lower than mine.

BlackPeter
02-07-2021, 06:40 PM
Vaccine roll out as fast as supplies are coming in.To ask for perfection is not the least bit realistic,we have to learn to improve as we go.

Is it really asking for perfection if we just complain that government is playing with peoples life's by dragging the chain and by running a less that competent administration?

You always forget to mention as well that there is a reason that vaccines are coming in so slow to NZ - Our government did not order enough vaccine early enough. Last in the world ... well, in the developed world at least.

Nearly all other OECD countries (and many others including developing nations) did a better job in ordering vaccines and rolling them out - can't be that hard, can it?, but hey - if you are happy enough that we are still beating South Sudan (and some other mainly African countries) in the vaccination roll out, than maybe your standards for a capable government are lower than mine.

Baa_Baa
02-07-2021, 06:58 PM
Is it really asking for perfection if we just complain that government is playing with peoples life's by dragging the chain and by running a less that competent administration?

You always forget to mention as well that there is a reason that vaccines are coming in so slow to NZ - Our government did not order enough vaccine early enough. Last on the world ... well, in the developed world at least.

Nearly all other OECD countries (and many others including developing nations) did a better job in ordering vaccines and rolling them out - can't be that hard, can it?, but hey - if you are happy enough that we are still beating South Sudan (and some other mainly African countries) in the vaccination roll out, than maybe your standards for a capable government are lower than mine.

You blame the "government" but it's not clear whether you mean the Executive (Labour in Government), or the Administration (government [agencies])? Obvious isn't it that the agencies are responsible for implementing the processes to meet the policies, responsible for the MIQ, responsible for the Vaccine programme, etc. Labour itself (Government) does nothing practical, the agencies (government) do it all. By extension, it could be any Executive party in Government and the agencies that implement the processes would be the same as they are now.

Zaphod
02-07-2021, 08:54 PM
You blame the "government" but it's not clear whether you mean the Executive (Labour in Government), or the Administration (government [agencies])? Obvious isn't it that the agencies are responsible for implementing the processes to meet the policies, responsible for the MIQ, responsible for the Vaccine programme, etc. Labour itself (Government) does nothing practical, the agencies (government) do it all. By extension, it could be any Executive party in Government and the agencies that implement the processes would be the same as they are now.

When a government agency doesn't implement the desired administrative function requested by the executive, who holds them to account?

Panda-NZ-
03-07-2021, 03:43 AM
Is it really asking for perfection if we just complain that government is playing with peoples life's by dragging the chain and by running a less that competent administration?


The fact you don't think our corona response has been world leading would be a strange concept to almost all international visitors here.
That there has been almost no lockdowns has been amazing for business, health and the economy.

Though they are failing on the hate speech law, housing and encouraging seperatism here.

kiora
03-07-2021, 07:52 AM
Where did the other 15% of the prisoners go? Into hotels? Likely to be cheaper.
https://www.corrections.govt.nz/resources/statistics/quarterly_prison_statistics/prison_stats_march_2021

kiora
03-07-2021, 07:53 AM
Delete delete

iceman
03-07-2021, 08:11 AM
The fact you don't think our corona response has been world leading would be a strange concept to almost all international visitors here.
That there has been almost no lockdowns has been amazing for business, health and the economy.

Though they are failing on the hate speech law, housing and encouraging seperatism here.

You are just doing exactly what BP has been very reasonably & thoroughly criticising, by glossing over the shocking shortcomings with the vaccination program here in NZ and a total failure to develop and implement a plan to get NZ out of it's current totally unsutainable and unreasonable border policies.
Not sure what international visitors you are referring to as we don't really have any here at present. I have many friends & family overseas and most of them can not believe that NZ has no plan to join the rest of the World and manage our way with COVID for the next few years. Believing we can continue with an elimination strategy is just a childish fallacy

iceman
03-07-2021, 08:12 AM
The fact you don't think our corona response has been world leading would be a strange concept to almost all international visitors here.
That there has been almost no lockdowns has been amazing for business, health and the economy.

Though they are failing on the hate speech law, housing and encouraging seperatism here.

You are just doing exactly what BP has been very reasonably & thoroughly criticising, by glossing over the shocking shortcomings with the vaccination program here in NZ and a total failure to develop and implement a plan to get NZ away from our current totally unsustainable and unreasonable border closure policies.
Not sure what international visitors you are referring to as we don't really have any here at present. I have many friends & family overseas and most of them can not believe that NZ has no plan to join the rest of the World and manage our way with COVID for the next few years. Believing we can continue with an elimination strategy is just a childish fallacy

jonu
03-07-2021, 09:14 AM
Where did the other 15% of the prisoners go? Into hotels? Likely to be cheaper.
https://www.corrections.govt.nz/resources/statistics/quarterly_prison_statistics/prison_stats_march_2021

Not sure what you are referring to. I see there is no home detention category in the stats. Maybe that accounts for the gap in whatever you are looking for?

Bjauck
03-07-2021, 09:39 AM
The fact you don't think our corona response has been world leading would be a strange concept to most all international visitors here.
That there has been almost no lockdowns has been amazing for business, health and the economy.

Though they are failing on the hate speech law, housing and encouraging seperatism here. The pre-vaccine covid response may well have been world beating. My overseas friends had been full of praise.

However we are in the multiple covid variants/vaccine rollout phase. Those same friends are gobsmacked that vaccination occurred so late and slow. They wonder why the relaxed approach occurred despite more infectious covid variants developing and with border leakage.

Hate Speech reform is in the initial discussion phase. They may yet develop a more coherent approach before drafting proposed legislative changes (benefit of the doubt?).

Housing is a disaster. It was already failing when they took office. They have made it worse in my opinion.

I do wonder if they are trying to introduce a version of apartheid in this country. (if I was feeling more sanguine, perhaps a more benign version than Verwoerd's version)

Balance
03-07-2021, 09:49 AM
The problem is you aren't responding, you're just ducking the questions by spouting a bunch more. What is Ardern's government going to fix that isn't already covered in law? And why does she need to further impinge on the rights of Free Speech to do it?


You blame the "government" but it's not clear whether you mean the Executive (Labour in Government), or the Administration (government [agencies])? Obvious isn't it that the agencies are responsible for implementing the processes to meet the policies, responsible for the MIQ, responsible for the Vaccine programme, etc. Labour itself (Government) does nothing practical, the agencies (government) do it all. By extension, it could be any Executive party in Government and the agencies that implement the processes would be the same as they are now.

So if it is a success, the government takes credit.

If it is a failure, blame it on the agencies and government depts.

Loser mentality.

BlackPeter
03-07-2021, 10:05 AM
You blame the "government" but it's not clear whether you mean the Executive (Labour in Government), or the Administration (government [agencies])? Obvious isn't it that the agencies are responsible for implementing the processes to meet the policies, responsible for the MIQ, responsible for the Vaccine programme, etc. Labour itself (Government) does nothing practical, the agencies (government) do it all. By extension, it could be any Executive party in Government and the agencies that implement the processes would be the same as they are now.

Well, the buck stops at the top, doesn't it? If Labour after four years in power is still not able to manage and control the administration which is serving at its pleasure, than clearly they are not the right people in the job, aren't they?

And we are not talking here about some minor regional issue, where maybe somebody in the administration should take responsibility. I guess the PM can't manage everything, can't she? However - we are talking here about one of the most significant issues for our people and our country in the coming months and years - surely, this is something the boss needs to monitor and manage, isn't it?

We are talking here potentially plenty of lives to lose (if the virus comes in prior to vaccination) and we are talking even more livelihoods at stake (keeping the borders closed due to incompetent vaccination roll out does cost jobs and it does impact on families). We won't be able to live on accruing debts forever - and as long as we are not vaccinated we can't let in tourists, we can't let in foreign students and our exporters are disadvantaged by not being able to properly service their overseas customers.

Labour might have good intentions, but they are clearly not capable of implementing them or just to run an administration. This is a clear fail. Still worse is that Labour and their supporters are not even (wo-)man enough to stand to their responsibility, admit their cockup and learn from their mistakes and make things better. Instead - it is always something or somebody else responsible, isn't it? Oh, the vaccine producers didn't foresee that we just have been too disorganised to order enough supplies. Maybe they forgot that after the maths lessons in NZ we haven't been able to take 5 million times two to order enough vaccine? Must be somebody's fault, can't be the government, can it?

I am pretty disappointed with Cindy - I guess she is really good in apologizing for the mistakes of previous governments (i.e. others), isn't she? Always finds the right words to make it sound nice and fluffy. However not able to acknowledge her own mistakes and stand to them.

Only losers are ducking away from their own responsibility. Are you already forecasting the outcome of the next elections?

Inept bunch ...

Panda-NZ-
03-07-2021, 04:52 PM
We are talking here potentially plenty of lives to lose (if the virus comes in prior to vaccination) and we are talking even more livelihoods at stake (keeping the borders closed due to incompetent vaccination roll out does cost jobs and it does impact on families). We won't be able to live on accruing debts forever - and as long as we are not vaccinated we can't let in tourists, we can't let in foreign students and our exporters are disadvantaged by not being able to properly service their overseas customers.


Let's talk about what is actually happening, rather some narrative you have thought up.
The closed borders has a minor cost but its only 5% of a lockdown and much more managable.

Maybe look at international news instead to gain a better perspective on new zealand's coronavirus response?

Panda-NZ-
03-07-2021, 05:35 PM
I think many NZers would like the borders to remain closed after this . Maybe there should be a referendum on it. :)

Panda-NZ-
03-07-2021, 06:05 PM
What a piece of B/S ... I find your post without truth and merit and it is highly objectionable and insulting.

Example 1:Our anti immigration minister - could hardly suppress his grinning on TV when he said that oh - what a pity, we now unfortunately can't let their loved and families into the country ... well, we all have to suffer, haven't we?


Why is this an issue? Auckland is already extremely overcrowded let alone adding in people who are of no value.

A working migrant on the median income of $55k pays only $9k in income tax. It pays for basically nothing.

Zaphod
03-07-2021, 10:22 PM
I think many NZers would like the borders to remain closed after this. Maybe there should be a referendum on it. :)

Works well for North Korea doesn't it!

Panda-NZ-
03-07-2021, 10:32 PM
Works well for us, I think we've managed to cope rather well during this time.

The only path to higher productivity is to cut off the easy and cheap option.

peetter
03-07-2021, 11:01 PM
Why is this an issue? Auckland is already extremely overcrowded let alone adding in people who are of no value.

A working migrant on the median income ($55k) pays only $9k in income tax, it pays for and delivers nothing.
Plus not allowing family reuinifcation was the policy under every government for the last 30 years.

Auckland is not overcrowded, it's just extremely badly planned for a city.

And any working migrant is better than plenty of kiwis on benefit too good to do an honest day of work.

A little bit of math for you:
$55000 salary - $9520 tax + $764.5 ACC
$44715.50 after tax
$13000 rent for a room - $4290 tax on income from landlords at 33%
15% GST of the rest - $4757.325 tax
Lets say $3000 PA on transportation - $1650 tax + $109 rego
I could also include tobacco and alcohol tax. ALso if anyone else know some other extra taxes, please let me know.

Thats about $21091 in taxes. Compare that to a person on benefits please.

Panda-NZ-
03-07-2021, 11:14 PM
And any working migrant is better than plenty of kiwis on benefit too good to do an honest day of work.


They take their wages overseas though, so I doubt it.
Employers may be better served to become more efficient so they wouldn't need more workers.

Panda-NZ-
03-07-2021, 11:20 PM
Compare that to a person on benefits please.

Why? It doesn't change the fact that migrants do not pay enough even for the basic infrastructure.

artemis
04-07-2021, 06:25 AM
Why? It doesn't change the fact that migrants do not pay enough even for the extra infrastructure.

Their employers might pay a spot of tax, though less if the apples rot on the ground.

Blue Skies
04-07-2021, 09:29 AM
The housing problem is a crisis, an absolute disgrace to Labour esp after all their confident promises to fix it. "In our Capital the number of people seeking emergency housing has tripled in a year." -all these children being brought up living in motels. "Home ownership is at a 70 year low."
NZ needs increasing home ownership rates & affordable housing, not more subsidies.

Good article by Andrea Vance

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300348396/a-tale-of-two-cities-the-worst-of-times-for-those-drowning-in-a-society-where-housing-is-a-commodity#comments

peetter
04-07-2021, 10:11 AM
Why? It doesn't change the fact that migrants do not pay enough even for the basic infrastructure.

I mean your posts usually don't make much sense, but this one tops it. I put a list of taxes working immigrants pay, and you choose to deliberately remove it from quote just so your post doesn't seem like the obvious load of crap it is.

Zaphod
04-07-2021, 10:41 AM
Works well for us, I think we've managed to cope rather well during this time.

The only path to higher productivity is to cut off the easy and cheap option.

It hasn't worked well for us. We have severe skill shortages that cannot be fulfilled by New Zealanders without significant long-term training, for which we are ill equipped and lack the people to even undertake it.

No political party is proposing to keep a ban in place indefinitely.

Tweak the immigration settings then. You don't need to create fortress NZ, banning foreigners from working here, which will have severe trade repercussions.

iceman
04-07-2021, 11:00 AM
Works well for us, I think we've managed to cope rather well during this time.

The only path to higher productivity is to cut off the easy and cheap option.

You live in Lala land with no connection to reality it seems

Bjauck
04-07-2021, 11:31 AM
Why is this an issue? Auckland is already extremely overcrowded let alone adding in people who are of no value.

A working migrant on the median income of $55k pays only $9k in income tax. It pays for basically nothing. I am taking that this was posted as a weekend discussion starter? After all we are all migrants or the descendants of those who migrated in various waka over the past 1000 or so years.

With respect to taxes, a working migrant is contributing a lot more than just income tax. GST and council rates come to mind. Also a working migrant by definition is not a a NZ born beneficiary - so the migrant's taxes help pay for the NZ-born beneficiaries and pensioners.

I think I agree with you insofar as NZ fiscal policy and both national and local planning policy has been deficient for decades. Because of that, without immigration, how would NZ have coped with the population loss from young NZ-born workers leaving to find better paid career opportunities and affordable home ownership overseas? NZ would become like parts of Italy, with villages of pensioners reliant on government and remittances from their children abroad.

I agree with Peetter - Auckland is only over-crowded because population growth has been poorly planned and managed. If your policies include high immigration, then you need to cater for it at least adequately.

BlackPeter
04-07-2021, 11:37 AM
Why is this an issue? Auckland is already extremely overcrowded let alone adding in people who are of no value.

A working migrant on the median income of $55k pays only $9k in income tax. It pays for basically nothing.


Works well for us, I think we've managed to cope rather well during this time.

The only path to higher productivity is to cut off the easy and cheap option.

Quite sickening thread of posts. Who are you to assess other peoples value on the basis of not even properly calculating their tax payments? What is your worth to society?

Did you think about the value of a person to society based on supporting their family, parish and community? Based on their contribution at work? What about the foreign nurse which might at some stage clean your butt because you are not longer able to do so? Is his / her worth only determined by his / her income tax payslip? What about the worth of the immigrant who is helping to build the roads you are using and the house you want to live in - and who is helping to allow our farmers to still make some profit?

Apart from that - at the moment is NZ with frightening speed racking up an enormous pile of debts. We are sort of maxing out our credit card and live nicely by spending the money we borrow. However - we will need to pay that money back at some stage, and we can't do that without reopening the borders (tourism, education, servicing our products abroad) - so maybe you better think next time before you post.

Ah yes - have a look at our debt load and just imagine how much fun it will be to pay that back without adequate income from overseas ...

12706

Bjauck
04-07-2021, 11:47 AM
A double up of posts...

Bjauck
04-07-2021, 12:05 PM
Quite sickening thread of posts. Who are you to assess other peoples value on the basis of not even properly calculating their tax payments? What is your worth to society?...
...
Ah yes - have a look at our debt load and just imagine how much fun it will be to pay that back wihtout adequate income from overseas ...

12706
Good points. Panda-NZ's arguments remind me of the discussions I read in relation to Brexit - that immigrants took more from the UK than they gave back. In that case, research showed that the opposite was actually the case. That was just from a fiscal point of view. However, realities rarely trouble debates based on emotion.

Also NZ has a dearth of overseas based financial assets. So much of NZ's "wealth" is in NZ real estate. In fact so much of the NZ economy is overseas owned with earnings ending up accruing to the overseas owners. The mortgage boom inflating NZ real estate has helped Australian banks prosper from their NZ holdings.

westerly
04-07-2021, 05:21 PM
The housing problem is a crisis, an absolute disgrace to Labour esp after all their confident promises to fix it. "In our Capital the number of people seeking emergency housing has tripled in a year." -all these children being brought up living in motels. "Home ownership is at a 70 year low."
NZ needs increasing home ownership rates & affordable housing, not more subsidies.

Good article by Andrea Vance

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300348396/a-tale-of-two-cities-the-worst-of-times-for-those-drowning-in-a-society-where-housing-is-a-commodity#comments

I do not think it is a disgrace to Labour although they should bite the bullet and introduce a heavy tax on property capital gains made on any sale outside of a legitimate family home.
The prime cause for the lack of affordable homes was the abolishment of State Advances and the M.O.W. Prior to that you could access a Govt. loan at a reasonable rate and there were subdivisions of bare sections where a basic house could be built leaving the garage, fencing, and section development to the buyer.
Now days developers have long realized there is far more money to be made selling fully landscaped homes to the top end of the market.
Just as with CGT any attempt to return to a system which served NZ well would be met with howls of misinformation and outrage from those who are creaming the less well off and demanding further tax cuts.

westerly

Panda-NZ-
04-07-2021, 10:22 PM
Apart from that - at the moment is NZ with frightening speed racking up an enormous pile of debts. We are sort of maxing out our credit card and live nicely of the increasing debts. However - we will need to pay that money back, and we can't do that without reopening the borders (tourism, education, servicing our products abroad) - so maybe you better think next time before you post.




Again you seem to have trouble looking at international context.
Migration has impacts on the environment which are not addressed too.

The metric for NZ should be GDP per capita and not overall growth. The latter doesn't result in any improvement.

Panda-NZ-
04-07-2021, 10:59 PM
The centre-left PM of denmark Mette Frederiksen has been tough on migration issues and it's worked well enough.

iceman
04-07-2021, 11:32 PM
They take their wages overseas though, so I doubt it.
Employers may be better served to become more efficient so they wouldn't need more workers.

You are so out of your depth and probably the most uneducated poster on ST. I can only assume you are a paid (by Labour) troll

Panda-NZ-
04-07-2021, 11:35 PM
They do take their wages overseas, and are unlikely to spend much outside rent so the GST calculation is a non-starter.

Feel free to address the facts at any point.

Panda-NZ-
05-07-2021, 01:00 AM
Population growth rate by country (for international context):

EU: 0.1%
USA: 0.5%
Japan: -0.2%
China: 0.4%

It's clear to me where a significant part of the problem is I think. NZ leads the pack at 2.1% and it's not even close.

peetter
05-07-2021, 08:38 AM
They do take their wages overseas, and are unlikely to spend much outside rent so the GST calculation is a non-starter.

Feel free to address the facts at any point.

Another completely wrong statement. First, there is a difference between migrant and seasonal worker. Second, most of the migrants do stay in NZ... otherwise you couldn't complain about them causing housing crisis. Third, even the seasonal workers spend most of the money they make in NZ on food, travel and services. Plus some of them stay, like me.

There's also a huge difference between illegal migration happening right now in Europe and legal migration in NZ.

peetter
05-07-2021, 08:48 AM
They do take their wages overseas, and are unlikely to spend much outside rent so the GST calculation is a non-starter.

Feel free to address the facts at any point.

Another completely wrong statement. First, there is a difference between migrant and seasonal worker. Second, most of the migrants do stay in NZ... otherwise you couldn't complain about them causing housing crisis. Third, even the seasonal workers spend most of the money they make in NZ on food, travel and services. Plus some of them stay, like me.

There's also a huge difference between illegal migration happening right now in Europe and legal migration in NZ.

fungus pudding
05-07-2021, 09:26 AM
I do not think it is a disgrace to Labour although they should bite the bullet and introduce a heavy tax on property capital gains made on any sale outside of a legitimate family home.

westerly

All or nothing. CGT needs to be carefully designed, but the one inarguable rule should be 'no exemptions'.

fungus pudding
05-07-2021, 09:27 AM
I do not think it is a disgrace to Labour although they should bite the bullet and introduce a heavy tax on property capital gains made on any sale outside of a legitimate family home.

westerly

All or nothing. CGT needs to be carefully designed, but the one inarguable rule should be 'no exemptions'.

BlackPeter
05-07-2021, 09:33 AM
Again you seem to have trouble looking at international context.
Migration has impacts on the environment which are not addressed too.

The metric for NZ should be GDP per capita and not overall growth. The latter doesn't result in any improvement.

Sadly - it appears you are not anymore trying to read and understand the posts you are responding to, which makes any attempt for discussion quite futile.

My argument was that we won't be able to pay back our debts without reopening the borders - for tourists, for international students and to allow our staff to go easily abroad to sell and service the products we are selling. What does this have to do with our future immigration policy?

As well - if you go back to the root of this discussion - I talked about the government breaking the contract they made with legitimate visa holders and their families. They gave essential workers visas which is a commitment to let them in (as long as they stick to the agreement as well). It means they can sell up their houses, give up work abroad and rely on being able to enter NZ within the visa conditions.

But than our government broke this commitment unilaterally by telling them with a grin - we don't care whether you suffer financial hardship or your family is now separated because you trusted NZ to stick to its commitments. We just changed our mind and don't keep our promises. We are liars and we don't care about people. Too bad either if you lived and worked already in NZ, we just don't let you back in because you went at the wrong time to your fathers funeral.

I guess why did these people trust in a NZ visa - they should have known that a Labour government breaks its promises and commitments if it can. Too bad, they didn't realise that Labour and Liar do rhyme, isn't it? Why should anybody again trust a commitment made by a NZ Labour government - they are clearly liars and they did prove it - and hey, their words about kindness are just absolutely meaningless hot air.

The discussion about which people we want to allow in future to enter NZ as a immigrant is a legitimate one and totally different from a discussion about the commitments we as country made previously.

"Pacta sunt servanda" (contracts need to be served) - Honest people do keep their commitments. Labour did show that they are neither honest nor kind. This was my point.

While I suppose we might disagree as well about our future immigration policy - this is a different story ...

BlackPeter
05-07-2021, 09:33 AM
This was an important post and therefore Share Trader duplicated it. Removed the duplicate to keep the thread readable.

fungus pudding
05-07-2021, 10:06 AM
This was an important post and therefore Share Trader duplicated it. Removed the duplicate to keep the thread readable.

They do that with mine too, and for the very same reason.

fungus pudding
05-07-2021, 10:46 AM
Right on bro !

12709

jonu
05-07-2021, 10:53 AM
Right on bro !

12709

When the cartoonists begin getting harsh you know the tide has turned.

Panda-NZ-
05-07-2021, 10:58 AM
There's also a huge difference between illegal migration happening right now in Europe and legal migration in NZ.

Why should we have the highest population growth rate in the OECD?

These stats will include all categories of worker. and non-worker family members.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.GROW?locations=OE (https://www.google.com/search?q=population+growth+rate+oecd&oq=population+growth+rate+oecd&aqs=chrome.0.0j0i22i30.7567j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

Panda-NZ-
05-07-2021, 11:13 AM
All or nothing. CGT needs to be carefully designed, but the one inarguable rule should be 'no exemptions'.

Farmers should get an exemption since passing down property is a important thing in regional areas.

peetter
05-07-2021, 11:27 AM
Why should we have the highest population growth rate in the OECD?

These stats will include all categories of worker.. and non-worker family members.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.GROW?locations=OE (https://www.google.com/search?q=population+growth+rate+oecd&oq=population+growth+rate+oecd&aqs=chrome.0.0j0i22i30.7567j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

As you might notice if you actually read the posts, I never said anything about migration numbers. I only corrected your illogical statements that "working migrants don't pay enough in taxes" and "migrants take all money abroad".

fungus pudding
05-07-2021, 12:15 PM
Farmers should get an exemption since passing down property is a important thing in regional areas.

They could pass it on minus a chunk of tax. It should be all or nothing. Nothing being the ideal tax level.

Panda-NZ-
05-07-2021, 05:37 PM
Inheritance is not a sale so maybe it won't apply in any case depending on the wider details... :sleep:

Blue Skies
05-07-2021, 06:24 PM
Farmers should get an exemption since passing down property is a important thing in regional areas.


While keeping farms intact & passing it on to a family member has some merits, exempting 'farms' from CGT would create another distortion in the property market.
Farm's would increase in value as an asset class out of any ratio to productivity.
Wealthy city folk would park money in 'farms' in worse case scenario tying up valuable agricultural land, doing the bare minimum to maintain the illusion of a working farm.

Personally I would prefer no increased taxes, no CGT, but using other levers to dampen the property market.

peetter
05-07-2021, 06:53 PM
While keeping farms intact & passing it on to a family member has some merits, exempting 'farms' from CGT would create another distortion in the property market.
Farm's would increase in value as an asset class out of any ratio to productivity.
Wealthy city folk would park money in 'farms' in worse case scenario tying up valuable agricultural land, doing the bare minimum to maintain the illusion of a working farm.

Personally I would prefer no increased taxes, no CGT, but using other levers to dampen the property market.

No NZ government will ever pass CGT without exempting homes and family farms(also home). It would be political suicide.

Anyway, your view makes no sense. First inheritance shouldn't be taxed as you'll end up with some children having to sell in order to pay taxes on something their parents bought and payed taxes on. Second, most of the countries in world have CGT exceptions on family homes.

Bjauck
05-07-2021, 10:26 PM
No NZ government will ever pass CGT without exempting homes and family farms(also home). It would be political suicide.

Anyway, your view makes no sense. First inheritance shouldn't be taxed as you'll end up with some children having to sell in order to pay taxes on something their parents bought and payed taxes on. Second, most of the countries in world have CGT exceptions on family homes. Some of the countries that have CGT exemptions on the family home actually have gift duties and/or inheritance taxes and/or stamp duties levied on home purchases. Is NZ unique in having no inheritance tax, no general CGT, no gift duties and no stamp duties? In NZ - currently - any general CGT, even one that excludes the family home, is political suicide. Hence even leftist Ardern categorically ruled one out.

I am not sure why inheritance taxes should be ruled out on the basis that the assets have already previously incurred taxes. Using similar logic, we should eliminate most tax gathering. GST should go for a start, on the basis that people pay for goods out of income that has already been taxed (although of course some people do pay for goods out of capital gains that have not been taxed.) As money continually circulates it continually incurs various taxes.

peetter
05-07-2021, 11:15 PM
Inheritance tax is just a disgusting tax. There's no other way to describe it. Your parents work and save all life (while paying taxes) to leave you something so you can get ahead and stinky government will get their filthy claws on part of those already taxed savings. I mean if that's not a daylight robbery, I don't know what is. Anyone thinking this is okay doesn't have their morals in check.

As far as CGT goes, that one I can at least understand.

Blue Skies
06-07-2021, 12:20 AM
Inheritance tax is just a disgusting tax. There's no other way to describe it. Your parents work and save all life (while paying taxes) to leave you something so you can get ahead and stinky government will get their filthy claws on part of those already taxed savings. I mean if that's not a daylight robbery, I don't know what is. Anyone thinking this is okay doesn't have their morals in check.

As far as CGT goes, that one I can at least understand.




There are of course very strong arguments for Death Duties or inheritance tax as you prefer to call it, esp if you believe in meritocracy.
These are worth considering before condemming them as disgusting.

Should the burden of taxes fall solely on those who by their own merit and hard work earn & create their own wealth, while those who are the benificaries or recipients of inherited wealth which they have done absolutely nothing to deserve other than having the good luck to be born out of the right vagina (as Russel Brand famously said), be given the further privilege of it being tax free?

If you believe in a society where the burden of taxes for things like health, education, defence etc is shared equally so as to minimise unequal opportunity & privilege & soaring inequality, then perhaps Death Duties should be included.

Some would argue Death Duties are the fairest form of tax, as the beneficiaries have done nothing themselves to earn the wealth, unlike other taxpayers who are paying tax on every dollar they earn or have created themselves.
Since they haven't personally had to work for it or earn it, they haven't actually personally lost anything.

Disc. just presenting the arguments for, I would be horrified if Death Duties were imposed on us.

Panda-NZ-
06-07-2021, 03:28 AM
The CGT with exemptions may be more efficient than the current "bright line rules" and the ineffective approach which covers stock market trading.

fungus pudding
06-07-2021, 06:34 AM
There are of course very strong arguments for Death Duties or inheritance tax as you prefer to call it, esp if you believe in meritocracy.


Cgt and ingeritance taxes, are or were different things. Nothing to do with what anyone prefers to call them.

Blue Skies
06-07-2021, 08:01 AM
Cgt and ingeritance taxes, are or were different things. Nothing to do with what anyone prefers to call them.


Obviously!
No one's suggesting CGT & Death Duties are the same thing!

Bjauck
06-07-2021, 08:14 AM
Doppelganger

Bjauck
06-07-2021, 08:14 AM
Inheritance tax is just a disgusting tax. There's no other way to describe it. Your parents work and save all life (while paying taxes) to leave you something so you can get ahead and stinky government will get their filthy claws on part of those already taxed savings. I mean if that's not a daylight robbery, I don't know what is. Anyone thinking this is okay doesn't have their morals in check.


As far as CGT goes, that one I can at least understand.
I am not convinced that determining which taxes should be levied is a question of morality. If it were, then they would all be immoral. The state confers property rights and it can take them away…


Imo, if any taxes are "disgusting", they would be GST & Income tax. The taxpayer's own attempt to stay alive through earning income to expend on subsistence is double-taxed.


I don't see why it would not be fairer for GST and Income tax to be eliminated and for death duties, gift duties and CGT to replace them. Perhaps there would then be an incentive to increase labour productivity instead of inflating the price of land. However it would be fairer still to broaden the tax base rather than swapping one narrow tax base for another.

peetter
06-07-2021, 08:35 AM
There are of course very strong arguments for Death Duties or inheritance tax as you prefer to call it, esp if you believe in meritocracy.
These are worth considering before condemming them as disgusting.

Should the burden of taxes fall solely on those who by their own merit and hard work earn & create their own wealth, while those who are the benificaries or recipients of inherited wealth which they have done absolutely nothing to deserve other than having the good luck to be born out of the right vagina (as Russel Brand famously said), be given the further privilege of it being tax free?

If you believe in a society where the burden of taxes for things like health, education, defence etc is shared equally so as to minimise unequal opportunity & privilege & soaring inequality, then perhaps Death Duties should be included.

Some would argue Death Duties are the fairest form of tax, as the beneficiaries have done nothing themselves to earn the wealth, unlike other taxpayers who are paying tax on every dollar they earn or have created themselves.
Since they haven't personally had to work for it or earn it, they haven't actually personally lost anything.

Disc. just presenting the arguments for, I would be horrified if Death Duties were imposed on us.

Well this is load of bull. Penalizing somebody's children because somebody else didn't save anything during their live. That's a complete oposit to meritocracy.

Maybe the owner of that particular vagina spent her life saving money for their children, living frugaly, while owner of another vagina with the same circumstances spent the money on cars, vacations and eating out. In my opinion, taxing those already taxed savings is definitely not fair.

BTW it's not just money you can't choose at birth... health, height, inteligence and looks come to mind as well. How do we redistribute those?

Sir Ten
06-07-2021, 08:43 AM
Anyone else feel things are starting to turn against our divisive and incompetent PM and her bunch of cronies?

Selection of headlines / articles over the last few days:


Clean car discount: Up to 107,000 motorists to be stung with new tax under 'feebate' scheme
Covid-19 worker shortage: Auckland restaurants Cassia, Sidart, French Cafe, forced to close for two weeks
Emergency housing crisis: Hawke's Bay hotel earned $1.5m in nine months but it was 'too much hassle'
Treasury warning to Government: Trillions of dollars in 'unsustainable' debt cycle
Number of children living in motels reaches record high despite Govt's pledge to combat child poverty
Opinion: Jacinda Ardern knows she's in trouble over proposed hate speech laws
Human Rights Commission's donation to the Waikato Mongrel Mob revealed
If you can handle it… watch her squirm, deflect and laugh when asked a direct question: https://fb.watch/v/1Kcep3e7v/

Bjauck
06-07-2021, 09:19 AM
Good summary Sir Ten. The challenges presented by Covid are many. We do need more than fudged responses. I think Labour can put the No New Taxes promises in the trash can labelled "Broken Promises"!

fungus pudding
06-07-2021, 09:43 AM
Obviously!
No one's suggesting CGT & Death Duties are the same thing!

'There are of course very strong arguments for Death Duties or inheritance tax as you prefer to call it' Well pickle me - it's difficult to interpret that statement of yours as meaning anything other than you consider inheritance tax to be a different name for the same thing.

Blue Skies
06-07-2021, 10:03 AM
'There are of course very strong arguments for Death Duties or inheritance tax as you prefer to call it' Well pickle me - it's difficult to interpret that statement of yours as meaning anything other than you consider inheritance tax to be a different name for the same thing.


You are misreading or mis understanding what's written.
I'm saying Death Duties (or Inheritance Tax), are not a Capital Gains Tax.
Death Duties are a tax paid on the value of all assets & money of a deceased person before being passed on to a beneficiary.
CGT is a tax paid by the living, usually at the point of sale or disposal of an asset, on it's increased value.

fungus pudding
06-07-2021, 10:12 AM
You are misreading or mis understanding what's written.
I'm saying Death Duties (or Inheritance Tax), are not a Capital Gains Tax.
Death Duties are a tax paid on the value of all assets & money of a deceased person before being passed on to a beneficiary.
CGT is a tax paid by the living, usually at the point of sale or disposal of an asset, on it's increased value.

You were suggesting the first poster preferred to call death duties an inheritance tax. Read what you wrote. Quote 'There are of course very strong arguments for Death Duties or inheritance tax as you prefer to call it'

Balance
06-07-2021, 10:14 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/emergency-housing-crisis-hawkes-bay-hotel-earned-15m-in-nine-months-but-it-was-too-much-hassle/W3FGXTV5KFKFFJSXJXEB7RBV3E/

Cindy’s answer to any problem is to throw money at it and when that fails, is to blame the previous government.

Glad to see that journalists and indeed, the voters out there are really starting to see through the BS.

peetter
06-07-2021, 10:37 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/emergency-housing-crisis-hawkes-bay-hotel-earned-15m-in-nine-months-but-it-was-too-much-hassle/W3FGXTV5KFKFFJSXJXEB7RBV3E/

Cindy’s answer to any problem is to throw money at it and when that fails, is to blame the previous government.

Glad to see that journalists and indeed, the voters out there are really starting to see through the BS.

Every single policy from them so far was either more tax or throwing money at problem without any idea if it's going to help. This is why modern governments are just money pits stealing from hard working people and giving to unproductive.

peetter
06-07-2021, 10:38 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/emergency-housing-crisis-hawkes-bay-hotel-earned-15m-in-nine-months-but-it-was-too-much-hassle/W3FGXTV5KFKFFJSXJXEB7RBV3E/

Cindy’s answer to any problem is to throw money at it and when that fails, is to blame the previous government.

Glad to see that journalists and indeed, the voters out there are really starting to see through the BS.

Every single policy from them so far was either more tax or throwing money at problem without any idea if it's going to help. This is why modern governments are just money pits stealing from hard working people and giving to unproductive.

JBmurc
06-07-2021, 11:14 AM
Every single policy from them so far was either more tax or throwing money at problem without any idea if it's going to help. This is why modern governments are just money pits stealing from hard working people and giving to unproductive.

Yes while they fill their own pockets blame everyone but themselves for the mess they put us all in ,but take all the glory on the back of hard working kiwis on any positive developments

artemis
06-07-2021, 11:32 AM
Every single policy from them so far was either more tax or throwing money at problem without any idea if it's going to help. This is why modern governments are just money pits stealing from hard working people and giving to unproductive.

Current Australian government did pretty well with their election slogan - workers not shirkers. Probably a bridge too far for New Zealand sensitivities but suspect the sentiment is quietly growing.

Balance
06-07-2021, 01:24 PM
Yes while they fill their own pockets blame everyone but themselves for the mess they put us all in ,but take all the glory on the back of hard working kiwis on any positive developments

Yesterday’s Covid update was classic Cindy - appeared to announce the good news about the ‘early’ arrival of 150,000 doses. She was nowhere to be seen and refused to answer on why NZ has gone from top of queue to bottom of queue.

iceman
06-07-2021, 03:25 PM
'There are of course very strong arguments for Death Duties or inheritance tax as you prefer to call it' Well pickle me - it's difficult to interpret that statement of yours as meaning anything other than you consider inheritance tax to be a different name for the same thing.

In your post 1649 you start talking about CGT & inheritance taxes, not death duties or inheritance taxes. I'm as confused as Blue Skies as to what you mean. Your post 1649 reads: "Cgt and ingeritance taxes, are or were different things. Nothing to do with what anyone prefers to call them."

Sgt Pepper
06-07-2021, 03:41 PM
Does anyone have any prediction about what Jacinda Ardern will do in response to much criticism, from both left and right, with the proposed extension of hate speech laws. The dangers of this foolish and dangerous legislation have been well traversed, but whether she bails on implementing it is anyone's guess.. What are others opinions?

fungus pudding
06-07-2021, 03:44 PM
In your post 1649 you start talking about CGT & inheritance taxes, not death duties or inheritance taxes. I'm as confused as Blue Skies as to what you mean. Your post 1649 reads: "Cgt and ingeritance taxes, are or were different things. Nothing to do with what anyone prefers to call them."

I did indeed. My apologies to you and blue skies. Of course I meant death duties - not cgt. I'll get back under my nuclear-proof rock for the rest of the day.

Panda-NZ-
06-07-2021, 04:07 PM
Current Australian government did pretty well with their election slogan - workers not shirkers. Probably a bridge too far for New Zealand sensitivities but suspect the sentiment is quietly growing.

52 weeks wage subsidy vs only 12 weeks here.

BlackPeter
06-07-2021, 04:11 PM
Does anyone have any prediction about what Jacinda Ardern will do in response to much criticism, from both left and right, with the proposed extension of hate speech laws. The dangers of this foolish and dangerous legislation have been well traversed, but whether she bails on implementing it is anyone's guess.. What are others opinions?

She will find somebody she can make responsible for the foolish proposal (ideally a political opponent - can she blame it on National?) and then drop the proposal like a hot potato :): Surely - there are more PR worthy things around, aren't they?

jonu
06-07-2021, 04:12 PM
Does anyone have any prediction about what Jacinda Ardern will do in response to much criticism, from both left and right, with the proposed extension of hate speech laws. The dangers of this foolish and dangerous legislation have been well traversed, but whether she bails on implementing it is anyone's guess.. What are others opinions?

Going by her interview with Duncan Garner yesterday morning she intends to push on, under the guise of a "discussion document". She claims she is just adopting the Royal Commission's findings, when, as Garner pointed out, she has ignored others.

I still haven't seen what problem they are trying to fix. They will certainly create a whole lot of problems and stifle debate about Labour's plans around LGBTQ alphabet soup. Labour already plans to back people being able to change their sex on their birth certificate and passport without any evidence of medical procedures, just what the person wants. Will attempts to oppose that be permitted under Ardern's authoritarian regime? Highly unlikely, it will be deemed "Hate Speech", and horror of horrors, may offend someone!

Ardern has already misled the NZ public on this, claiming that political opinion would be exempt (it's not). If NZ has an iota of common sense left, this will be her downfall.

It is hard to believe she could have been so ignorant about what is proposed, so one can easily assume she has been deliberate in her misinformation.

Panda-NZ-
06-07-2021, 04:50 PM
Yes it needs to be scrapped and then slightly lower the threshold for hate'.

Balance
06-07-2021, 06:07 PM
She will find somebody she can make responsible for the foolish proposal (ideally a political opponent - can she blame it on National?) and then drop the proposal like a hot potato :): Surely - there are more PR worthy things around, aren't they?

Exactly.

Like CGT, she will drop it like the spin mistress she is.

Blue Skies
06-07-2021, 06:10 PM
I did indeed. My apologies to you and blue skies. Of course I meant death duties - not cgt. I'll get back under my nuclear-proof rock for the rest of the day.


Cheers fungus pudding, glad cleared up the mix-up.

Thanks iceman.

BDL
06-07-2021, 06:26 PM
I voted for Jacinda / Labour. Have usually voted greens the last few times as I think climate change / environment and inequality are some of the big issues we are all facing.
Very disappointed. The greens stand for nothing, just nodding for labour, and labour are so fixated on race as there biggest issue. What a big lie it has all been. Jacinda out to make a name for herself, Maori are playing the victim for her and who cares about all pulling together to fix the big issues of our time.
I feel I have been lied to by Jacinda, and Maori are just out to grab what they can.
Look up what Charlie Munger says about politicians and how they use so called victims. (U tube, Munger victims)
I have never thought of myself as racist, but every where I look around NZ today, all white people are by definition, apparently......

fungus pudding
06-07-2021, 07:16 PM
I voted for Jacinda / Labour. Have usually voted greens the last few times as I think climate change / environment and inequality are some of the big issues we are all facing.
Very disappointed. The greens stand for nothing, just nodding for labour, and labour are so fixated on race as there biggest issue. What a big lie it has all been. Jacinda out to make a name for herself, Maori are playing the victim for her and who cares about all pulling together to fix the big issues of our time.
I feel I have been lied to by Jacinda, and Maori are just out to grab what they can.
Look up what Charlie Munger says about politicians and how they use so called victims. (U tube, Munger victims)
I have never thought of myself as racist, but every where I look around NZ today, all white people are by definition, apparently......

Given there's a zillion entries from Munger, it would be sensible to post the url.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eub5nlOzsOs
That's got something to do with victims, but you also mentioned politicians. Perhaps this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLhSU8d3rLQ
Am I getting close?

BDL
06-07-2021, 07:24 PM
This one

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eub5nlOzsOs

Munger mentions politicians, and it sounds very much like what Jacinda is doing.

jonu
06-07-2021, 08:57 PM
Here's where the "free speech"/ "Hate speech" is taking us.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/300349863/rugby-columnist-sam-caseys-sports-radio-station-contract-terminated-after-controversy

Man loses his job over an opinion piece published in different publication from where he just started working.

Time was, when someone of a differing opinion would have submitted an article actually debating the merits of his argument. But no, now they just sack him.

BTW, Casey has some strong points about the business case for women's rugby. It doesn't pay its way. He says All Blacks and Super players have had enough of it....but we'll never find out whether that's true or not. They'll be too scared to speak their mind.

BDL
07-07-2021, 06:35 AM
Labours zero waste targets, allow a huge new landfill in the Dome Valley
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018802777/waste-minimisation-efforts-slow-to-take-hold

Climate change
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/major-legal-challenge-against-climate-commission

Human rights..... (but "be kind", yea right)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/06/new-zealand-mp-ardern-government-criticise-china-human-rights

Immigration is a mess

This government is turning into a big disappointment. But "be kind" - just don't say anything out of line.

BDL
07-07-2021, 06:36 AM
Double post

Balance
07-07-2021, 08:57 AM
This government is turning into a big disappointment. But "be kind" - just don't say anything out of line.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/koha-payment-to-mongrel-mob-barry-soper-does-willie-jackson-believe-he-is-above-scrutiny/UEPSK35CK4PXHMYCZ253XZNMWE/

And don’t you dare ask any Maori minister in Cindy’s cabinet any searching or accountability question.

As long as it’s Maori, irrespective of whether it is BS or kosher, it is sacred and must not be challenged.

This is the path that this government is taking NZ down to - separatism on a grand scale.

And don’t you dare question the path being taken towards separatism or apartheid in reverse - you are white and guilty because of the sins of your father.

Bjauck
07-07-2021, 09:04 AM
...

Time was, when someone of a differing opinion would have submitted an article actually debating the merits of his argument. But no, now they just sack him.

...
Is that true ? Back in the day, employees publicly expressing an opinion that was contrary to the image of their employer were allowed to continue their employment while the employer discussed the merits of that opinion in public? Toeing the company line was not a thing back then?

fungus pudding
07-07-2021, 09:04 AM
Labours zero waste targets, allow a huge new landfill in the Dome Valley
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018802777/waste-minimisation-efforts-slow-to-take-hold

Climate change
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/major-legal-challenge-against-climate-commission

Human rights..... (but "be kind", yea right)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/06/new-zealand-mp-ardern-government-criticise-china-human-rights

Immigration is a mess

This government is turning into a big disappointment. But "be kind" - just don't say anything out of line.

I didn't expect much and certainly haven't been disappointed.

fungus pudding
07-07-2021, 09:05 AM
Labours zero waste targets, allow a huge new landfill in the Dome Valley
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018802777/waste-minimisation-efforts-slow-to-take-hold

Climate change
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/major-legal-challenge-against-climate-commission

Human rights..... (but "be kind", yea right)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/06/new-zealand-mp-ardern-government-criticise-china-human-rights

Immigration is a mess

This government is turning into a big disappointment. But "be kind" - just don't say anything out of line.

I didn't expect much and certainly haven't been disappointed.

jonu
07-07-2021, 12:35 PM
Is that true ? Back in the day, employees publicly expressing an opinion that was contrary to the image of their employer were allowed to continue their employment while the employer discussed the merits of that opinion in public? Toeing the company line was not a thing back then?

Have you not heard of Editorials? Remember those things where the Editor of the paper spoke their mind on whatever topic they chose? Casey wrote an opinion piece. It may be an opinion a lot of people disagree with. Let them say so and expose the weakness of his argument with the persuasiveness of their own.

Entrep
07-07-2021, 04:35 PM
A democracy is only as strong as the opposition. Sums up very well the state of NZ governance right now.

Bjauck
07-07-2021, 07:24 PM
Have you not heard of Editorials? Remember those things where the Editor of the paper spoke their mind on whatever topic they chose? Casey wrote an opinion piece. It may be an opinion a lot of people disagree with. Let them say so and expose the weakness of his argument with the persuasiveness of their own. I am not sure how that is relevant to the point we were discussing.

jonu
07-07-2021, 08:17 PM
I am not sure how that is relevant to the point we were discussing.

The man is a journalist! He wrote an opinion piece! The media organisation he now works for has sacked him.

Entrep
09-07-2021, 08:16 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/name-suppression-lapses-for-senior-waikato-mongrel-mob-leader-mark-griffiths-who-has-pleaded-not-guilty-to-drug-charges/MT3KJJTG7JMBK3LAROU5PBZHPY/

Now give him another Koha for his defence.

iceman
09-07-2021, 09:26 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/name-suppression-lapses-for-senior-waikato-mongrel-mob-leader-mark-griffiths-who-has-pleaded-not-guilty-to-drug-charges/MT3KJJTG7JMBK3LAROU5PBZHPY/

Now give him another Koha for his defence.

So much for all his BS claims that things have changed. No doubt Willie Jackson and the idiotic officials will continue meeting with these criminals

jonu
09-07-2021, 09:43 AM
The latest Marxist strain to emerge from US universities, CRT (Critical Race Theory) would appear to have brought the Identity Politics madness to tipping point. The full on backlash has begun.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/americans-in-toxic-fight-over-insane-critical-race-theory/3E2LWZLJ5SQ2KTLGXS5RVXRVLM/?&ref=topbox

This nonsense has also started to creep in here at school and corporate level. You can bet it will be a chunk of Ardern's rewriting of the NZ history curriculum. Don't stand for it!

iceman
09-07-2021, 09:51 AM
And talking of Universities or Unitec's jonu, here is another brilliant and complete failure from this Government as reported by the Herald today:
More than three years after the Government launched a huge development for up to 4000 homes on Unitec land to tackle Auckland's housing crisis head-on, not a single house has been built.

"In March 2018, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern unveiled the development at Unitec's Te Noho Kotahitanga Marae in her Mt Albert electorate, saying the mix of affordable and open-market housing would include parks, shops and a new school.

The development was the first major plan released under the now-abandoned KiwiBuild programme, with plans for between 3000 and 4000 homes on 26.5ha of land the Government purchased from Unitec."

jonu
09-07-2021, 10:12 AM
And talking of Universities or Unitec's jonu, here is another brilliant and complete failure from this Government as reported by the Herald today:
More than three years after the Government launched a huge development for up to 4000 homes on Unitec land to tackle Auckland's housing crisis head-on, not a single house has been built.

"In March 2018, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern unveiled the development at Unitec's Te Noho Kotahitanga Marae in her Mt Albert electorate, saying the mix of affordable and open-market housing would include parks, shops and a new school.

The development was the first major plan released under the now-abandoned KiwiBuild programme, with plans for between 3000 and 4000 homes on 26.5ha of land the Government purchased from Unitec."

Time for Ardern to return to the site for one of her photo opps and show us the tremendous delivery of her policy.....

Remember her "Year of Delivery" for the second year of her first term? That's what had her heading for a one term exit prior to Covid and the daily propaganda briefings and helicopter money saving her. People have short memories when money is being thrown about. As usual, it will be her base constituency that will be most shafted. Is it any wonder so many Nats supporters voted her in? She was throwing them cash faster than Santa throws lollies!

Balance
09-07-2021, 10:13 AM
Words & promises - aplenty from Cindy & her team of nincompoops but no delivery.

Always the fault of others for the non-delivery :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/government-slow-to-turn-words-into-houses-at-unitec-development-in-auckland/W5XFEH6WH7NNM4EF2YF66PIM3E/

"More than three years after the Government launched a huge development for up to 4000 homes on Unitec land to tackle Auckland's housing crisis head-on, not a single house has been built.

In March 2018, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern unveiled the development at Unitec's Te Noho Kotahitanga Marae in her Mt Albert electorate, saying the mix of affordable and open-market housing would include parks, shops and a new school.

The development was the first major plan released under the now-abandoned KiwiBuild programme, with plans for between 3000 and 4000 homes on 26.5ha of land the Government purchased from Unitec."

Meanwhile, what Maoris want, Maoris get as far as the grubby Cindy is concerned - helps her stay in power.

Bjauck
09-07-2021, 10:47 AM
And talking of Universities or Unitec's jonu, here is another brilliant and complete failure from this Government as reported by the Herald today:
More than three years after the Government launched a huge development for up to 4000 homes on Unitec land to tackle Auckland's housing crisis head-on, not a single house has been built.
...

That is a disgrace. Maybe it is time for another concept plan - easier than dealing with reality…


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-government/121839484/plans-unveiled-for-nzs-biggest-urban-housing-development-at-auckland-unitec-site


Real estate agents numbers booming….if only they could be retrained as tradies…

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/real-estate-agent-numbers-booming-but-complaints-against-them-also-rising/JQGIIQW564H4OGOPAF4LVBZQVU/

artemis
09-07-2021, 12:11 PM
Unitec development is called Carrington now. A major issue to me is that the plan was for around a third each social housing, Kiwibuild ('affordable, but probably not very) and general market. That level of social housing will put off many buyers not at all surprisingly. Don't need many problem occupiers - not necessarily social housing tenants most of whom are fine, but only most - to start a downward spiral that is hard to reverse.

Maybe there will be gated communities for private buyers.

Balance
09-07-2021, 12:43 PM
Unitec development is called Carrington now. A major issue to me is that the plan was for around a third each social housing, Kiwibuild ('affordable, but probably not very) and general market. That level of social housing will put off many buyers not at all surprisingly. Don't need many problem occupiers - not necessarily social housing tenants most of whom are fine, but only most - to start a downward spiral that is hard to reverse.

Maybe there will be gated communities for private buyers.

Exactly.

Anyone with any property sense avoids buying anywhere near social housing - more so when they are looking at large scale apartment buildings which will house the three types of housing within the one building.

Imagine buying a unit and finding yourself with state tenants on both sides as a likely case scenario!

jonu
09-07-2021, 12:48 PM
Ardern's department conducting a somewhat vague survey as to what effect her Covid propaganda campaign has had. With no exit strategy in place it is little wonder that a majority of Kiwis are fearful of opening the borders even with vaccinations in place. We have a government that sank tens of billions into a strategy without any thought of how to extricate the country from it nearly 18 months down the track.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125701520/more-than-half-of-new-zealanders-worried-about-opening-borders

Again it is little wonder that many feel so safe and secure, given that the government has primed the economy with a fair proportion of the above mentioned tens of billions. That will have course have to stop at some point. Leaving us with a shut up border and exhausted financial capability to prop up the economy. Then what? Rising interest rates and inflation have already been signaled.

Ardern and Robertson are likely to be thrown out leaving behind a multi generational mess. But be kind, be open and transparent, and whatever you do, don't say anything that might offend anyone!

Zaphod
09-07-2021, 01:00 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/tech-skills-shortage-industry-over-reliant-on-immigration-report/3AVJW55MPOYHXDFSRI7EMXJUCQ/

Essentially we'll be providing more training for workers to head to overseas markets. The lead time to reform the sector participants, train staff and for them to gain skills in the industry (if at all possible given NZ's small IT market), will take a very long time and therefore will not solve the immediate need. Long term, these same people will depart NZ to earn more money in Australia, the USA, ior Europe.

The report outlines 10 key actions. These are worth reading even if you are not involved in the sector.

Action 1: A strong strategic focus on reskilling and upskilling
Action 2: Rapidly expand pathway options to industry
Action 3: Refine the Immigration system to be more targeted
Action 4: Industry must step up and lead the transformation
Action 5: Māori to be a crucial partner in skills
Action 6: Expand the tech Story to a domestic audience
Action 7: An All-of-Government strategic approach to skills
Action 8: Increased support for digital tech learning in schools
Action 9: Radically re-defined standardised job roles
Action 10: Strengthen the tech sector through greater diversity


From this article and the others I've read this lunchtime, I get the distinct impression that the borders are likely to be closed for the long term, combined with further sectors to be reformed in a centralised manner.

Zaphod
09-07-2021, 01:04 PM
Ardern's department conducting a somewhat vague survey as to what effect her Covid propaganda campaign has had. With no exit strategy in place it is little wonder that a majority of Kiwis are fearful of opening the borders even with vaccinations in place. We have a government that sank tens of billions into a strategy without any thought of how to extricate the country from it nearly 18 months down the track.

Based on what has been said by the government to date, I think we'll see one of the most cautious approaches to re-opening the borders of any country. If Australia adopts a similar strategy to the UK & Singapore (which is likely to be followed by other countries as well), then we will be left in a very precarious position.

jonu
09-07-2021, 01:07 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/tech-skills-shortage-industry-over-reliant-on-immigration-report/3AVJW55MPOYHXDFSRI7EMXJUCQ/

Essentially we'll be providing more training for workers to head to overseas markets. The lead time to reform the sector participants, train staff and for them to gain skills in the industry (if at all possible given NZ's small IT market), will take a very long time and therefore will not solve the immediate need. Long term, these same people will depart NZ to earn more money in Australia, the USA, ior Europe.

The report outlines 10 key actions. These are worth reading even if you are not involved in the sector.

Action 1: A strong strategic focus on reskilling and upskilling
Action 2: Rapidly expand pathway options to industry
Action 3: Refine the Immigration system to be more targeted
Action 4: Industry must step up and lead the transformation
Action 5: Māori to be a crucial partner in skills
Action 6: Expand the tech Story to a domestic audience
Action 7: An All-of-Government strategic approach to skills
Action 8: Increased support for digital tech learning in schools
Action 9: Radically re-defined standardised job roles
Action 10: Strengthen the tech sector through greater diversity


From this article and the others I've read this lunchtime, I get the distinct impression that the borders are likely to be closed for the long term, combined with further sectors to be reformed in a centralised manner.

What the hell does 9 even mean?

5 & 10 have Ardern's and her minions fingers all over them. Identity Politics wherever she treads.

Zaphod
09-07-2021, 01:27 PM
What the hell does 9 even mean?

5 & 10 have Ardern's and her minions fingers all over them. Identity Politics wherever she treads.

I think it is advocating to standardise the position titles & descriptions for IT sector jobs, which would need to be set at a national level. I've yet to read the full report, so this is pure conjecture on my part.

We have had a number of issues with INZ misinterpreting a foreign candidates prior position title & employment as being decidedly different from what we were offering, consequently refusing to issue a visa. Perhaps this is designed to resolve that? I don't know.

fungus pudding
09-07-2021, 02:20 PM
Exactly.

Anyone with any property sense avoids buying anywhere near social housing - more so when they are looking at large scale apartment buildings which will house the three types of housing within the one building.

Imagine buying a unit and finding yourself with state tenants on both sides as a likely case scenario!

Shhhh! Hate speech police might overhear you.

Sir Ten
09-07-2021, 03:54 PM
Time for Ardern to return to the site for one of her photo opps and show us the tremendous delivery of her policy.....

Remember her "Year of Delivery" for the second year of her first term? That's what had her heading for a one term exit prior to Covid and the daily propaganda briefings and helicopter money saving her. People have short memories when money is being thrown about. As usual, it will be her base constituency that will be most shafted. Is it any wonder so many Nats supporters voted her in? She was throwing them cash faster than Santa throws lollies!

I thought I'd take a look at Labour's Facebook page today... it was a painful experience, with "true-believers" unwavering in their support for the smiling liar. That said, there did appear to be some genuine criticism/concern of their performance across many of the qualitative issues - i.e. mental health. I think there's something in that. Trying to turn Labour's existing base on economics is futile. It needs to address things they think they care about (I say "think they care about", as many don't seem to be aware of the impact the economic failings will have on their day-to-day lives). I acknowledge its not the best measure of sentiment as most of the fine folk on these Facebook pages seem more vocal/activist/defensive than the balance of the population... but I was just boggled by how people defend this stuff?

Pretty much everything Jacinda does grates me because it's so disingenuous - but I think the thing that robs me of any faith in Labour is the complete lack of transparency. If they walked the walk on this I could probably show some more sympathy as owning your mistakes is often more important than the mistakes themselves, but this lot seems so ardent that they know best and that their failings are justifiable that it's insulting.

Anyway, I expect we'll see an extensive list of broken promises prepared for the campaign trail prior to the next election... but the list is only as effective as how it's delivered. And that at the moment seems to be the biggest problem - it just doesn't seem to get the any cut-through.

That is either an indictment on the ignorance and intelligence and of our population (which I think is a genuine consideration) or a sign that the opposition really needs some more/better advice.

Only other thing I'd add, is that I think the mental manipulation of the current Government's policies and messaging is extremely perverse... there is such a growing intolerance of any criticism (hate speech laws, "be kind", genuine criticism of the economics of women's rugby, etc.) of people in general, no matter how small or rational, that you run the real risk that you're marginalized by your peers, community and often your employer from having any opinion that isn't considered kind - i.e. it's becoming increasingly more prudent to shut-up than run the social-acceptance gauntlet (or risk-losing your job!). I work for myself, so am somewhat insulated from the last point, but even still, if people catch wind that you have an opposing view, you do risk losing clients/customers by virtue of their need to toe-the-line. Scary stuff.

peetter
09-07-2021, 04:21 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/tech-skills-shortage-industry-over-reliant-on-immigration-report/3AVJW55MPOYHXDFSRI7EMXJUCQ/

Essentially we'll be providing more training for workers to head to overseas markets. The lead time to reform the sector participants, train staff and for them to gain skills in the industry (if at all possible given NZ's small IT market), will take a very long time and therefore will not solve the immediate need. Long term, these same people will depart NZ to earn more money in Australia, the USA, ior Europe.

The report outlines 10 key actions. These are worth reading even if you are not involved in the sector.

Action 1: A strong strategic focus on reskilling and upskilling
Action 2: Rapidly expand pathway options to industry
Action 3: Refine the Immigration system to be more targeted
Action 4: Industry must step up and lead the transformation
Action 5: Māori to be a crucial partner in skills
Action 6: Expand the tech Story to a domestic audience
Action 7: An All-of-Government strategic approach to skills
Action 8: Increased support for digital tech learning in schools
Action 9: Radically re-defined standardised job roles
Action 10: Strengthen the tech sector through greater diversity


From this article and the others I've read this lunchtime, I get the distinct impression that the borders are likely to be closed for the long term, combined with further sectors to be reformed in a centralised manner.

Datacom can't find people, because they don't pay well. That's the only problem.

Also to do IT on a level higher than 1st level helpdesk reading of KB articles, you actually have to have analytical brain. Person that has a brain capacity like that will manage to get a great job in many different industries regardless of education, race or gender. It mostly can't be taught.

peetter
09-07-2021, 04:26 PM
Exactly.

Anyone with any property sense avoids buying anywhere near social housing - more so when they are looking at large scale apartment buildings which will house the three types of housing within the one building.

Imagine buying a unit and finding yourself with state tenants on both sides as a likely case scenario!

Friends live in newly developed apartments in Northcote, accross street from social housing. Screaming all times of day and people jumping in from of moving vehicles are on daily basis. The joy...

Balance
09-07-2021, 07:47 PM
Friends live in newly developed apartments in Northcote, accross street from social housing. Screaming all times of day and people jumping in from of moving vehicles are on daily basis. The joy...

Property developer contact who builds for Kainga Ora (KO) loves dealing with them - reckons he is making the easiest low risk development money ever from them.

And they cannot get enough of developments to house as many state tenants (edict from Cindy no less in his opinion).

But he steers completely clear of mixed housing development which KO encourages - as he puts it, such a development is screwed (actually he used the f word) the minute people find out that there are state tenants in the mix.

Matter of time before ghettos and slums emerge from such developments.

fungus pudding
09-07-2021, 08:57 PM
Property developer contact who builds for Kainga Ora (KO) loves dealing with them - reckons he is making the easiest low risk development money ever from them.

And they cannot get enough of developments to house as many state tenants (edict from Cindy no less in his opinion).

But he steers completely clear of mixed housing development which KO encourages - as he puts it, such a development is screwed (actually he used the f word) the minute people find out that there are state tenants in the mix.

Matter of time before ghettos and slums emerge from such developments.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyJUBlDv-rM

artemis
10-07-2021, 06:31 AM
Property developer contact who builds for Kainga Ora (KO) loves dealing with them - reckons he is making the easiest low risk development money ever from them.

And they cannot get enough of developments to house as many state tenants (edict from Cindy no less in his opinion).

But he steers completely clear of mixed housing development which KO encourages - as he puts it, such a development is screwed (actually he used the f word) the minute people find out that there are state tenants in the mix.

Matter of time before ghettos and slums emerge from such developments.

Back in the day, the social housing waiting list was almost all families with children and some pensioner housing. The latter mostly delivered and managed by councils back then. Now more than half of the waiting list is single people, mostly men, and couples with no children, most working age. And the waiting list is massive and growing - nearly 2,000 households added in March for example.

According to the government the reasons are 9 years of neglect, and also that they are being kind making sure that people know what help is available.

Getting on to the waiting list is based on a points system - including broadly medical issues. And it is those issues that can cause problems especially in densely populated areas. There used to be options away from the community - very few now - and boarding houses, fewer now partly due to much higher compliance and costs required. Plus families who stepped up.

No simple answers now that responsibilities have moved from individuals and families to taxpayers, but big red flag for any buyers looking at mixed developments.

Bjauck
10-07-2021, 09:18 AM
NZ has changed since Former National Party PM John Key grew up in a state house (which was sold under a National Government). We are a much more divided country, with respect to both wealth and social issues.

When even "affordable" houses cost so many multiples of annual income, buyers will be so wary of potential factors that will make resale difficult or potentially dampen values relative to other houses.

artemis
10-07-2021, 10:49 AM
......
When even "affordable" houses cost so many multiples of annual income, buyers will be so wary of potential factors that will make resale difficult or potentially dampen values relative to other houses.

Most reporting compares house prices or rises to the average wage or average income. For individuals. Very occasionally there is a comparison using household income. Can't find it now but not long ago there was one of the latter over on interest.co.nz - it showed them tracking similarly on a household basis. Implication being DINKs have a much better chance of buying than households with a single income. 'Twas ever thus.

Balance
10-07-2021, 11:21 AM
Most reporting compares house prices or rises to the average wage or average income. For individuals. Very occasionally there is a comparison using household income. Can't find it now but not long ago there was one of the latter over on interest.co.nz - it showed them tracking similarly on a household basis. Implication being DINKs have a much better chance of buying than households with a single income. 'Twas ever thus.

Excellent point, Artemis.

Gone are the days when most households were single income.

These days, double incomes are the norm and we can see how society has adjusted accordingly to that development - proliferation of childcare centres with government support being a case on point.

And it logically flows through that there are higher quantum/level of incomes competing for homes - a consequence will be higher property prices.

Bjauck
10-07-2021, 11:38 AM
Most reporting compares house prices or rises to the average wage or average income. For individuals. Very occasionally there is a comparison using household income. Can't find it now but not long ago there was one of the latter over on interest.co.nz - it showed them tracking similarly on a household basis. Implication being DINKs have a much better chance of buying than households with a single income. 'Twas ever thus.


Certainly DINKies with a helpful wealthy family have always had an easier time. The average age of FHBs is now about 34yo - up from 25yo in 1970. Maybe part of the reason is that two incomes are necessary to get the average first property.

I think "average household income" may more often be used these days. Perhaps because the individual first home buyer has become a rarer beast? Perhaps "average" is now used rather than "median" too, for a similar reason?


https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/real-estate/124350937/housing-affordability-at-worst-point-in-at-least-17-years

Blue Skies
10-07-2021, 11:40 PM
If it's true as reported in British Medical Journal, Pfizer required a premium for early delivery which Israel paid enabling it to vaccinate just about all of its citizens, but our govt did not, that is extremely disquieting.

Pre Robert MacCulloch estimates the NZ premium would have been $40 million which would have allowed most of NZ to be fully vaccinated by now & is paltry sum when compared with the danger of our low vaccination rate & the cost of outbreaks or plans for $685 million harbour bridge cycleway.

https://www.downtoearth.kiwi/post/a-question-to-health-minister-hipkins

Bjauck
11-07-2021, 08:08 AM
If it's true as reported in British Medical Journal, Pfizer required a premium for early delivery which Israel paid enabling it to vaccinate just about all of its citizens, but our govt did not, that is extremely disquieting...

Canada paid more to get earlier doses too. American company Pfizer seems to have been selling its vaccines to the highest bidder? I guess we should not be surprised with a health system is based on those with the most money get the latest and best treatment. In an international context NZ will therefore always be a long way down the queue. With a bit of backsheesh, NZ may have advanced a bit in the queue.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/canada-paid-a-premium-to-get-doses-from-pfizer-earlier-than-planned-1.5467958

fungus pudding
11-07-2021, 08:39 AM
[QUOTE=Bjauck;894620]Canada paid more to get earlier doses too. American company Pfizer seems to have been selling its vaccines to the highest bidder? I guess we should not be surprised with a health system is based on those with the most money get the latest and best treatment. [QUOTE]

Nothing to do with the health system. Pfizer is a private entity who can deal with any other entity it wants to in a democracy.

fungus pudding
11-07-2021, 08:40 AM
[QUOTE=Bjauck;894620]Canada paid more to get earlier doses too. American company Pfizer seems to have been selling its vaccines to the highest bidder? I guess we should not be surprised with a health system is based on those with the most money get the latest and best treatment. [QUOTE]

Nothing to do with the health system. Pfizer is a private entity who can deal with any other entity it wants to in a democracy.

Bjauck
11-07-2021, 08:58 AM
[QUOTE=Bjauck;894620]Canada paid more to get earlier doses too. American company Pfizer seems to have been selling its vaccines to the highest bidder? I guess we should not be surprised with a health system is based on those with the most money get the latest and best treatment. [QUOTE]
Nothing to do with the health system. Pfizer is a private entity who can deal with any other entity it wants to in a democracy. Pharmaceutical companies are an integral part of the health systems, providing some of the sanctioned treatments and products provided through health services.

Health services seem to have greater or lesser access to Pfizer products depending on how much they are prepared to pay.

fungus pudding
11-07-2021, 09:06 AM
[QUOTE=fungus pudding;894624][QUOTE=Bjauck;894620]Canada paid more to get earlier doses too. American company Pfizer seems to have been selling its vaccines to the highest bidder? I guess we should not be surprised with a health system is based on those with the most money get the latest and best treatment. Pharmaceutical companies are an integral part of the health systems, providing some of the sanctioned treatments and products provided through health services.

Health services seem to have greater or lesser access to Pfizer products depending on how much they are prepared to pay.

Yes. Pfizer is a private entity who can deal with any other entity it wants to and naturally price is important to them. You obviously see something wrong with that.

Bjauck
11-07-2021, 09:59 AM
[QUOTE=Bjauck;894630][QUOTE=fungus pudding;894624]

Yes. Pfizer is a private entity who can deal with any other entity it wants to and naturally price is important to them. You obviously see something wrong with that.
You can agree with a broad system without necessarily agreeing to every aspect and tactic deployed within it.

I respect multinational pharmaceuticals, their medications help keep some of my family members alive. The profit motive no doubt stimulates development and commercialisation. However I am a shareholder in other enterprises, so that is probably a given....

I also accept that multinational pharmaceutical companies, delivering products authorised within NZ health services, are an integral part of the NZ health system. It does not necessarily mean that I like all the tactics and pricing policies undertaken by these companies.

fungus pudding
11-07-2021, 10:17 AM
[QUOTE=fungus pudding;894631][QUOTE=Bjauck;894630]
You can agree with a broad system without necessarily agreeing to every aspect and tactic deployed within it.

I respect multinational pharmaceuticals, their medications help keep some of my family members alive. The profit motive no doubt stimulates development and commercialisation. However I am a shareholder in other enterprises, so that is probably a given....

I also accept that multinational pharmaceutical companies, delivering products authorised within NZ health services, are an integral part of the NZ health system. It does not necessarily mean that I like all the tactics and pricing policies undertaken by these companies.

I know what you mean - but there is a price to pay for living in a democracy. Fortunately it is a more acceptable price than any autocracy or dictatorship has ever offered. Unfortunately we'll never reach Utopia as long as humans run the show.

Zaphod
11-07-2021, 11:02 AM
[QUOTE=Bjauck;894635][QUOTE=fungus pudding;894631]

I know what you mean - but there is a price to pay for living in a democracy. Fortunately it is a more acceptable price than any autocracy or dictatorship has ever offered. Unfortunately we'll never reach Utopia as long as humans run the show.

Given the situation we find ourselves in, pharmaceutical companies could on one hand have attempted to charge far higher prices than they have given the rapid development effort undertaken and new technologies used, but on the other hand that would of course risk government intervention. Overall I'm not concerned at the pricing for the COVID vaccines to date.

The greatest issue to date has been (as you mentioned) to do with humans. Anti-vax, anti-mask, anti anything perceived as control or infringing upon personal rights. I'm aghast, yet not surprised.

Bjauck
11-07-2021, 01:08 PM
[QUOTE=Bjauck;894635][QUOTE=fungus pudding;894631]

I know what you mean - but there is a price to pay for living in a democracy. Fortunately it is a more acceptable price than any autocracy or dictatorship has ever offered. Unfortunately we'll never reach Utopia as long as humans run the show. We can always seek a better way..

Bjauck
11-07-2021, 01:45 PM
[QUOTE=fungus pudding;894636][QUOTE=Bjauck;894635]

Given the situation we find ourselves in, pharmaceutical companies could on one hand have attempted to charge far higher prices than they have given the rapid development effort undertaken and new technologies used, but on the other hand that would of course risk government intervention. Overall I'm not concerned at the pricing for the COVID vaccines to date.... When profiteering occurs and the extent of state intervention to stifle competition (patent law) is a somewhat murky area.

How much money has Pfizer made...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/how-much-money-pfizer-has-made-from-vaccine-rollout/FKH5RZKH4B7MNEUQULDEQOQ25E/

fungus pudding
11-07-2021, 02:27 PM
When profiteering occurs and the extent of state intervention to stifle competition (patent law) is a somewhat murky area.

How much money has Pfizer made...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/how-much-money-pfizer-has-made-from-vaccine-rollout/FKH5RZKH4B7MNEUQULDEQOQ25E/

Good on them. Well done.

BlackPeter
11-07-2021, 04:19 PM
Good on them. Well done.

Exactly. They took a huge risk with this new strategy - good to see it paying off for them.

Anybody wants to imagine the alternative scenario with neither Pfizer nor any of the other players developing a vaccine because its not profitable and profits seen as bad anyway?

Blue Skies
11-07-2021, 07:32 PM
Exactly. They took a huge risk with this new strategy - good to see it paying off for them.

Anybody wants to imagine the alternative scenario with neither Pfizer nor any of the other players developing a vaccine because its not profitable and profits seen as bad anyway?


Vaccines were and would have been developed in record time without profit motive.
Profit motive is generally not a guaranteed safe driver of development of vaccines for obvious reasons.

Interesting informative comparison of Covid vaccines.
Note some companies don't want to be seen as making huge profits having received so much funding.



https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55170756

Bjauck
11-07-2021, 07:33 PM
Exactly. They took a huge risk with this new strategy - good to see it paying off for them.

Anybody wants to imagine the alternative scenario with neither Pfizer nor any of the other players developing a vaccine because its not profitable and profits seen as bad anyway?
I am not sure where the line exists between profits and profiteering.

I thought funding for BioNTech vaccine development, clinical trial and manufacture came from the German taxpayer. I am not sure how much of the financial and other risk was borne by Pfizer. The American taxpayer bought a lot of vaccines in advance from Pfizer.

BlackPeter
12-07-2021, 08:26 AM
I am not sure where the line exists between profits and profiteering.

I thought funding for BioNTech vaccine development, clinical trial and manufacture came from the German taxpayer. I am not sure how much of the financial and other risk was borne by Pfizer. The American taxpayer bought a lot of vaccines in advance from Pfizer.

No doubt the public funding came with conditions. Did Pfixer / BioNtec violate these conditions?

And it is not even a monopoly holding the world to ransom. There are plenty of other vaccine candidates around the world - and most of the fast vaccinating countries are now running into problems with throwing vaccine away because the reminder of their population (anti-vaxxers and other nutters) prefer to invite Covid to stay. I don't think that availability of vaccine will be a big issue in future for anybody with an open mind and able to run a government ...

But just to bring this discussion back to the thread title: NZ is competing with a small number of other laggards for the last place in the developed world. What an incompetent bunch our government is - while they are unkind, racist and xenophobe (look at their actions against valid visa holders, not their words) ... organizing a simple vaccination campaign (hey, everybody else seems to be able to do it) does not seem to be one of their key skills ...

Unfortunately not their only lacking skill - here are some other key skills lacking:

They are clearly not good in solving the housing crisis, they are in general not good in keeping promises and they failed in improving our justice and our education system. Our health system is after four years Labour not better than before - and their three waters reform has all signs of making things worse, more expensive and more bureaucratic for New Zealand written over it.

Why don't they fix the problems instead of trying to break as well the things which still work?

Clearly the "Can't do government". Well, not quite true - they are pretty good in throwing money at problems without fixing them, aren't they?

jonu
12-07-2021, 11:32 AM
Finally some decent strategic thinking from the Nats, and calling Ardern to account as an opposition should.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/national-launches-campaign-demanding-debate-on-issues/ar-AAM0svR?ocid=msedgntp

Ardern has been sneaking all manner of undeclared, uncampaigned policy in, despite terrible delivery of policy she did campaign on.

dobby41
12-07-2021, 01:50 PM
Finally some decent strategic thinking from the Nats, and calling Ardern to account as an opposition should.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/national-launches-campaign-demanding-debate-on-issues/ar-AAM0svR?ocid=msedgntp

Ardern has been sneaking all manner of undeclared, uncampaigned policy in, despite terrible delivery of policy she did campaign on.

A different view
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/judith-collins-launches-national-campaign-demanding-government-policy-debate-he-puapua-first-target/IHCC5LJOW3LQ55V642TOVOKGRU/

Entrep
12-07-2021, 02:33 PM
When is the Mob going to IPO on the NZX with Labour (on behalf of the Crown) as cornerstone shareholder? https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mongrel-mob-led-kahukura-meth-rehab-programme-given-275-million-from-proceeds-of-crime-funding/AK33SIF3Q7VDVWADIDLOWT4IIY/

They have the ultimate business model - sell the poison and get paid for providing (or not) the cure. NZX should be courting them I would have thought. Just remember to pay the koha too.

dobby41
12-07-2021, 03:30 PM
When is the Mob going to IPO on the NZX with Labour (on behalf of the Crown) as cornerstone shareholder? https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mongrel-mob-led-kahukura-meth-rehab-programme-given-275-million-from-proceeds-of-crime-funding/AK33SIF3Q7VDVWADIDLOWT4IIY/

They have the ultimate business model - sell the poison and get paid for providing (or not) the cure. NZX should be courting them I would have thought. Just remember to pay the koha too.

Interesting - at least it is from money taken off them (rather than me).

jonu
12-07-2021, 03:43 PM
Have a read of this unadulterated ****e from a University lecturer and begin to see where post modern Marxism is taking us and why universities are turning out Marxist indoctrinated activists who are reeking havoc right through Education and Politics, and then flowing over to society in general. This is a path Ardern is apparently happy to steer us down.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/societys-problem-with-femininity/ar-AAM06mr?ocid=msedgntp

To think this came from a so called academic. There is no science to any of this, in fact it ignores and contradicts gender traits known in the scientific literature. Call BS when you see it. Don't stand for this nonsense.

dobby41
12-07-2021, 04:04 PM
Have a read of this unadulterated ****e from a University lecturer and begin to see where post modern Marxism is taking us and why universities are turning out Marxist indoctrinated activists who are reeking havoc right through Education and Politics, and then flowing over to society in general. This is a path Ardern is apparently happy to steer us down.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/societys-problem-with-femininity/ar-AAM06mr?ocid=msedgntp

To think this came from a so called academic. There is no science to any of this, in fact it ignores and contradicts gender traits known in the scientific literature. Call BS when you see it. Don't stand for this nonsense.

Universities are supposed to challenge mainstream ideas to make people (students) think.
It isn't indoctrination anymore than your ideas are.
Where in there was mention of the Govt, Govt policy or Ardern? I see nothing 'apparent' in there!

By the way, this is nothing new - universities have been doing similar for decades (probably over a century), think Donald Maclean, Guy Burgess, Kim Philby etc.

jonu
12-07-2021, 04:11 PM
Oh My.

Firstly, Universities are meant to educate and progress knowledge based on sound logic or science, not teach stuff that ignores both.

The English spies from the 30's hardly justifies this garbage. Furthermore those treasonous twerps have been shown to be backing a murderous regime.

As for Ardern? She and her Leftie allies the Greens indulge in Identity Politics at every opportunity. The Trans birth certificate law change is on its way. No science. no logic just feelings.

dobby41
12-07-2021, 04:34 PM
Oh My.

Firstly, Universities are meant to educate and progress knowledge based on sound logic or science, not teach stuff that ignores both.
Actually they aren't - that wouldn't lead to new ideas, would it?



The English spies from the 30's hardly justifies this garbage. Furthermore those treasonous twerps have been shown to be backing a murderous regime.

As for Ardern? She and her Leftie allies the Greens indulge in Identity Politics at every opportunity. The Trans birth certificate law change is on its way. No science. no logic just feelings.
I wasn't justifying it at all - just pointing out that this sort of thing has probably always been there.
I gather you are happy with your ideas being the only valid ones - good for you.

jonu
12-07-2021, 04:39 PM
Actually they aren't - that wouldn't lead to new ideas, would it?


I wasn't justifying it at all - just pointing out that this sort of thing has probably always been there.
I gather you are happy with your ideas being the only valid ones - good for you.

What part of "progress knowledge" means no new ideas?

As for Ardern....won't you deny that the Left expound identity politics at every opportunity? Ardern is in the thick of it. Be kind, be emotive, mushy feelings and aspirations instead of delivery.

Logen Ninefingers
12-07-2021, 04:58 PM
'Only Labour has a comprehensive solution to the housing crisis'.

BlackPeter
12-07-2021, 05:04 PM
'Only Labour has a comprehensive solution to the housing crisis'.

Well, yes - they did throw money at it which fueled the problem. They are trying the same approach with health care, education (incl. pre-schools), age care and now local government (three waters). This will keep the next government busy with fixing for a long time.

dobby41
12-07-2021, 05:19 PM
'Only Labour has a comprehensive solution to the housing crisis'.

Should be overlaid with the people living on the streets and in cars/ tents etc.

Bjauck
12-07-2021, 07:39 PM
'Only Labour has a comprehensive solution to the housing crisis'. Labour, National want to get elected so they have not been doing anything radical enough to make a difference. It is more important for Labour to pretend they are doing more. When home* ownership is priced out of the reach of more than 50% of those who actually vote, maybe that is when something may happen?

*a home with appropriate amenities for their circumstances.

alokdhir
13-07-2021, 08:21 AM
After being warned about bubble rules to Australia ...still many went mainly to placate their travel lust ....PM warned if this happens what has happened we wont come to your rescue so flyers be aware ...still they went

Now instead of letting them become aware of wrong things could happen by facing the music ...our beloved PM has buckled and did total volte face ....Free pre arranged MIQ for NSW returnees ...total waste of tax payers money .

Also a very wrong precedent has been set for future bubbles ...

What a shame that this PM is only an attention seeker and throwing away public money person ...lost my respect fully now .

Bjauck
13-07-2021, 08:49 AM
After being warned about bubble rules to Australia ...still many went mainly to placate their travel lust ....PM warned if this happens what has happened we wont come to your rescue so flyers be aware ...still they went

Now instead of letting them become aware of wrong things could happen by facing the music ...our beloved PM has buckled and did total volte face ....Free pre arranged MIQ for NSW returnees ...total waste of tax payers money .

Also a very wrong precedent has been set for future bubbles ...

What a shame that this PM is only an attention seeker and throwing away public money person ...lost my respect fully now . It is another volte face. Many travellers were not travelling for the sake of it. Many visited family, often after having been unable to visit sick relatives. However Ardern was generous with the money of taxpayers who stayed home for the sake of caution during a pandemic.

peetter
13-07-2021, 09:14 AM
It is another volte face. Many travellers were not travelling for the sake of it. Many visited family, often after having been unable to visit sick relatives. However Ardern was generous with the money of taxpayers who stayed home for the sake of caution during a pandemic.

Perfect marketing spin on wasting taxpayers money...

Balance
13-07-2021, 09:21 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/reserve-bank-pays-nearly-400k-for-sculpture-labelled-by-act-leader-david-seymour-as-an-over-priced-monstrosity/KOSQ46SYHLJZB4XO7Y27BTARCQ/

The myth making of Maori contribution to anything government - all generously funded by taxpayers with no heed of restraint.

This is what Cindy & her team of incompetents do - so they can stay in power on a divide & rule strategy.

Excerpts :

"Independent economic commentator and former Reserve Bank staffer Michael Reddell described the sculpture as an "unnecessary use of public money, unfortunately consistent with the rather over-generous Funding Agreement the Government reached with the bank ..."

Reddell, said the bank's insistence that it is applying a "Te Ao Māori" (Māori world) strategy to responsibilities like monetary policy decision-making smacked of "Wellington feelgoodism" combined with "[Governor Adrian] Orr pursuing his personal agendas at public expense."

In 2018, Orr took the reins at the Reserve Bank. Later that year the bank took the name, Te Pūtea Matua, and, somewhat controversially, invented a story for itself based around the Māori tree god."

Tree god? Really?

It's not okay to apply mainstream religious values these days in government matters but it seems anything goes when it involves Maori 'values' & religious beliefs.

NZers better wake up to this insidious Maori myth making by those in power - designed to create two separate states in NZ.

Bjauck
13-07-2021, 09:30 AM
Perfect marketing spin on wasting taxpayers money... LOL - Completely the wrong conclusion from my post. A volte face is not complimenting the PM. Was it just because I said many travellers had been visiting family (after what may often have been a long and often painful separation) as opposed to having a frivolous jolly holiday? I know of one person who visited Australia - that was to see her daughter. She knew the risks and she would have been only too happy to have paid for isolation on her return.

jonu
13-07-2021, 09:35 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/reserve-bank-pays-nearly-400k-for-sculpture-labelled-by-act-leader-david-seymour-as-an-over-priced-monstrosity/KOSQ46SYHLJZB4XO7Y27BTARCQ/

The myth making of Maori contribution to anything government - all generously funded by taxpayers with no heed of restraint.

This is what Cindy & her team of incompetents do - so they can stay in power on a divide & rule strategy.

It certainly shows an attitude of largesse in what should be a time of fiscal restraint. We can blame that on Ardern and Robertson, however the Reserve Bank is pretty much its own beast, but will have picked up on the helicopter money attitude of Ardern. Remember Orr asking permission of Te Roroa for something to do with Tane Mahuta? Looks like he has kept the relationship cosy.

Logen Ninefingers
13-07-2021, 10:50 AM
The government is apparently not implementing He Puapua, they are just (so far) following the exact same steps laid out in the He PuaPua report.

Compare and contrast the below excerpt from He Puapua with the below announcement from Willie Jackson.

(It is clear that the media are going to portray as a 'racist' anyone who speaks out about the looming incremental implementation of He Puapua ).

jonu
13-07-2021, 11:01 AM
The government is apparently not implementing He Puapua, they are just (so far) following the exact same steps laid out in the He PuaPua report.

Compare and contrast the below excerpt from He Puapua with the below announcement from Willie Jackson.

(It is clear that the media are going to portray as a 'racist' anyone who speaks out about the looming incremental implementation of He Puapua ).

Yeah, aint it weird. The Left want to implement apartheid. Much as in the US, in some areas they are trying to dismantle antidiscrimination laws that were established from the Civil Rights struggles in the 60s. Identity Politics madness. It will get worse. I only hope there isn't a violent pendulum swing to the far right as a result. If there is, much of this idiocy will be used against the Left as they will have already enabled discrimination.

peetter
13-07-2021, 11:06 AM
Yeah, aint it weird. The Left want to implement apartheid. Much as in the US, in some areas they are trying to dismantle antidiscrimination laws that were established from the Civil Rights struggles in the 60s. Identity Politics madness. It will get worse. I only hope there isn't a violent pendulum swing to the far right as a result. If there is, much of this idiocy will be used against the Left as they will have already enabled discrimination.

I think civil wars are the most likely outcome of these crazy policies. I expect it in my lifetime.