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Logen Ninefingers
13-07-2021, 11:16 AM
Yeah, aint it weird. The Left want to implement apartheid. Much as in the US, in some areas they are trying to dismantle antidiscrimination laws that were established from the Civil Rights struggles in the 60s. Identity Politics madness. It will get worse. I only hope there isn't a violent pendulum swing to the far right as a result. If there is, much of this idiocy will be used against the Left as they will have already enabled discrimination.

I think Comrade Adern has realised that she can achieve all her radical aims simply by just incrementally introducing the changes with a significant amount of time between each new step. The sheep may get a start at each new announcement, but they quickly settle down again. After a while the dog has moved them into the pen without them even noticing.
It's all very cunning. Implement your agenda by stealth, in increments, and one day you can close the gate on a job well done.
She is absolutely shameless (ruthless) and is pretty much the archetypal wolf in sheeps clothing. Just remember that for the Left, the ends always justify the means.

BlackPeter
13-07-2021, 11:28 AM
The government is apparently not implementing He Puapua, they are just (so far) following the exact same steps laid out in the He PuaPua report.

Compare and contrast the below excerpt from He Puapua with the below announcement from Willie Jackson.

(It is clear that the media are going to portray as a 'racist' anyone who speaks out about the looming incremental implementation of He Puapua ).

You mean they both proposed to announce and discuss their policies. Really - this must make the policies quite similar?


Yeah, aint it weird. The Left want to implement apartheid. Much as in the US, in some areas they are trying to dismantle antidiscrimination laws that were established from the Civil Rights struggles in the 60s. Identity Politics madness. It will get worse. I only hope there isn't a violent pendulum swing to the far right as a result. If there is, much of this idiocy will be used against the Left as they will have already enabled discrimination.

Apartheid?

Who is "the Left" who wants to introduce it and where do they say that they want that? You just picked an ugly and highly inappropriate term and use it without really understanding it. Apartheid in South Africa was the brutal suppression of one race by some other race. The suppressed have not been allowed to take jobs reserved to the other side, they have not been allowed to mingle or - shudder - intermarry with the other race and they had no political rights.

So - tell us - who wants to implement this system in NZ and against whom?


I think civil wars are the most likely outcome of these crazy policies. I expect it in my lifetime.

folks, this is quite laughable.

I guess we do live in highly politicised times - similarly like the 1920'íes and 1930'íes in Europe. Well, we know now that last time it was not "the Left" who ended up creating the big mess.

Exaggerations, name calling and abusing ugly terms like above do not help - they just increase the polarisation and tensions. the bigger the tensions, the bigger the mess.

You well might have valid concerns (even if there is no evidence for that in the posts above) - would it be possible to outline and discuss your concerns by explaining what you are worried about without starting with baseless exaggerations, stereotyping and name calling?

Would however require that you read the policies you are worried about and are able to explain them instead of just parroting stuff from your favorite social bubble.

Have a try ....

peetter
13-07-2021, 11:32 AM
folks, this is quite laughable.

I guess we do live in highly politicised times - similarly like the 1920'íes and 1930'íes in Europe. Well, we know now that last time it was not "the Left" who ended up creating the big mess.

Exaggerations, name calling and abusing ugly terms like above do not help - they just increase the polarisation and tensions. the bigger the tensions, the bigger the mess.

You well might have valid concerns (even if there is no evidence for that in the posts above) - would it be possible to outline and discuss your concerns by explaining what you are worried about without starting with baseless exaggerations, stereotyping and name calling?

Would however require that you read the policies you are worried about and are able to explain them instead of just parroting stuff from your favorite social bubble.

Have a try ....

Name calling is your forte.

jonu
13-07-2021, 12:12 PM
You mean they both proposed to announce and discuss their policies. Really - this must make the policies quite similar?



Apartheid?

Who is "the Left" who wants to introduce it and where do they say that they want that? You just picked an ugly and highly inappropriate term and use it without really understanding it. Apartheid in South Africa was the brutal suppression of one race by some other race. The suppressed have not been allowed to take jobs reserved to the other side, they have not been allowed to mingle or - shudder - intermarry with the other race and they had no political rights.

So - tell us - who wants to implement this system in NZ and against whom?



folks, this is quite laughable.

I guess we do live in highly politicised times - similarly like the 1920'íes and 1930'íes in Europe. Well, we know now that last time it was not "the Left" who ended up creating the big mess.

Exaggerations, name calling and abusing ugly terms like above do not help - they just increase the polarisation and tensions. the bigger the tensions, the bigger the mess.

You well might have valid concerns (even if there is no evidence for that in the posts above) - would it be possible to outline and discuss your concerns by explaining what you are worried about without starting with baseless exaggerations, stereotyping and name calling?

Would however require that you read the policies you are worried about and are able to explain them instead of just parroting stuff from your favorite social bubble.

Have a try ....

BP, don't assume what I don't know. Your post illustrates that you don't see the slippery slope Ardern and those who advocate Identity Politics take us. Laws that discriminate according to race are a terrible idea. Once you do that extremists from either side can take it where they like. Apartheid was to keep separate, and do so by discriminating by race. Look where that led.

NZ has walked a fine line on this for many years. I, personally would argue there is no further need for the Maori Roll and seats in the House. When they were implemented there was a case for it, as many Maori would have relied on their Chiefs and kaumatua to vote for them. That is no longer the case.

Ardern is an intellectual light weight who has no clue how dangerous she is. Andrew Little likewise. Ardern is even more dangerous as she is disingenuous and cynical in the extreme. NZ has had a masterclass in propaganda from her, that's her strength. That's it. A walking, talking mouthpiece.

Joshuatree
13-07-2021, 12:25 PM
Jonu is an intellectual light weight who has no clue how dangerous he is. . Jonu is dangerous as he is disingenuous and ​CYNICAL(HELL YEAH:) in the extreme. NZ has had a masterclass in propaganda from the far right That's his weakness his fear of change from HIStory to OUR inclusive story. That's it. A walking, talking dinosaur mouthpiece incapable of change because he doesnt want to share..

RGR367
13-07-2021, 12:34 PM
This gov't was elected on CoVid19 and it will defeated too by its response. https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/rescue-flights-miq-spots-for-nsw-returnees-bloody-unfair/ar-AAM4bAK?ocid=msedgntp

jonu
13-07-2021, 12:38 PM
Jonu is an intellectual light weight who has no clue how dangerous he is. . Jonu is dangerous as he is disingenuous and ​CYNICAL(HELL YEAH:) in the extreme. NZ has had a masterclass in propaganda from the far right That's his weakness his fear of change from HIStory to OUR inclusive story. That's it. A walking, talking dinosaur mouthpiece incapable of change because he doesnt want to share..

You know nothing of me JT. My children are part-Maori and are fluent in te reo. As for my philanthropic contributions to society...I'll keep that to myself other than to say I share plenty.

Now how about constructing a valid defense of your Great Leader? The One who dominated our airwaves on a daily basis and threw Bloomfield and doctors under the bus to save her own hide. Some of us aren't so easily led. We think for ourselves.

Joshuatree
13-07-2021, 01:02 PM
If we don't adapt and change we don't grow and unfold,we don't evolve.If we don't engage and include we become unbalanced cynical fearful ole irrelevant patriarch dinosaurs.Things are changing so fast,too fastforme to keep up ,especially all the tech!.But I'm prepared to try.

Logen Ninefingers
13-07-2021, 01:30 PM
You mean they both proposed to announce and discuss their policies. Really - this must make the policies quite similar?



Apartheid?

Who is "the Left" who wants to introduce it and where do they say that they want that? You just picked an ugly and highly inappropriate term and use it without really understanding it. Apartheid in South Africa was the brutal suppression of one race by some other race. The suppressed have not been allowed to take jobs reserved to the other side, they have not been allowed to mingle or - shudder - intermarry with the other race and they had no political rights.

So - tell us - who wants to implement this system in NZ and against whom?



folks, this is quite laughable.

I guess we do live in highly politicised times - similarly like the 1920'íes and 1930'íes in Europe. Well, we know now that last time it was not "the Left" who ended up creating the big mess.

Exaggerations, name calling and abusing ugly terms like above do not help - they just increase the polarisation and tensions. the bigger the tensions, the bigger the mess.

You well might have valid concerns (even if there is no evidence for that in the posts above) - would it be possible to outline and discuss your concerns by explaining what you are worried about without starting with baseless exaggerations, stereotyping and name calling?

Would however require that you read the policies you are worried about and are able to explain them instead of just parroting stuff from your favorite social bubble.

Have a try ....

You mean they both proposed to announce and discuss their policies. Really - this must make the policies quite similar?

I mean the government is following the blueprint laid out in He Puapua.

As first reported by Newsroom, the consultation will begin with iwi and Māori organisations over the next six months, before opening up to the wider public and letting them have their say.

Jackson, speaking at Ngā Whare Waatea Marae in Mangere, was keen to address accusations of separatism made by those who question the plan’s Māori-focused approach.

Balance
13-07-2021, 02:57 PM
If we don't adapt and change we don't grow and unfold,we don't evolve.If we don't engage and include we become unbalanced cynical fearful ole irrelevant patriarch dinosaurs.Things are changing so fast,too fastforme to keep up ,especially all the tech!.But I'm prepared to try.

Which is the exact opposite of what this government is doing - going backwards and into history (specifically rewriting Maori history) to steer a path into the 'new' future.

Tree god - what next for the RBNZ under governor Orr?

dobby41
13-07-2021, 03:18 PM
Tree god - what next for the RBNZ under governor Orr?

FFS - it's art, not a policy statement!
The issue is 'why are they spending even $400 on art? Does it help them do their job? (No)
Remember when MBIE started and they paid a fortune for their office entrance in Wellington - that didn't help them do their job either and was a 'branding' exercise (like you could go somewhere else for MBIE services?).

Balance
13-07-2021, 03:26 PM
FFS - it's art, not a policy statement!
The issue is 'why are they spending even $400 on art? Does it help them do their job? (No)
Remember when MBIE started and they paid a fortune for their office entrance in Wellington - that didn't help them do their job either and was a 'branding' exercise (like you could go somewhere else for MBIE services?).

Not true - it is a further progression of incorporating Maori myth making mumbo jumbo into government policies.

"In 2018, Orr took the reins at the Reserve Bank. Later that year the bank took the name, Te Pūtea Matua, and, somewhat controversially, invented a story for itself based around the Māori tree god.

The narrative describes aspects of New Zealand's financial system as parts of Tāne Mahuta, including money and foreign reserves (the sap), the legislation which sets out the bank's powers and function (the roots), and the entities the bank regulates including commercial banks (the branches and leaves).

"The Journey of Te Pūtea Matua: our Tāne Mahuta", a 35-page document published by the bank, reinterprets both the history and the purpose of the central bank by employing the Māori story.

Documents on the bank's website say the Māori worldview informs its policymaking.

Reddell, however, said there can be "no substantive connection or way in which the so-called Māori perspective can meaningfully influence either monetary policy or bank regulation."

That is most evidently so for monetary policy where there is a single instrument for the whole country, where the target is set by the Government, and where its [the RBNZ's] monetary policy looks not materially different to that in any other advanced country."

The bank's key purpose - as set out in legislation - is to set New Zealand's monetary policy, regulate the commercial bank and insurance sectors and ensure financial stability, and issue currency."

Tree god - what a freaking joke NZ is becoming.

Logen Ninefingers
13-07-2021, 03:27 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/reserve-bank-pays-nearly-400k-for-sculpture-labelled-by-act-leader-david-seymour-as-an-over-priced-monstrosity/KOSQ46SYHLJZB4XO7Y27BTARCQ/

The myth making of Maori contribution to anything government - all generously funded by taxpayers with no heed of restraint.

This is what Cindy & her team of incompetents do - so they can stay in power on a divide & rule strategy.

Excerpts :

"Independent economic commentator and former Reserve Bank staffer Michael Reddell described the sculpture as an "unnecessary use of public money, unfortunately consistent with the rather over-generous Funding Agreement the Government reached with the bank ..."

Reddell, said the bank's insistence that it is applying a "Te Ao Māori" (Māori world) strategy to responsibilities like monetary policy decision-making smacked of "Wellington feelgoodism" combined with "[Governor Adrian] Orr pursuing his personal agendas at public expense."

In 2018, Orr took the reins at the Reserve Bank. Later that year the bank took the name, Te Pūtea Matua, and, somewhat controversially, invented a story for itself based around the Māori tree god."

Tree god? Really?

It's not okay to apply mainstream religious values these days in government matters but it seems anything goes when it involves Maori 'values' & religious beliefs.

NZers better wake up to this insidious Maori myth making by those in power - designed to create two separate states in NZ.

Come on mate, don't you know that Te Pūtea Matua is committed to it's kaitiaki role and advancing Te Ōhanga Māori.

https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/news/2021/06/reserve-bank-committed-to-its-kaitiaki-role

Reserve Bank committed to its kaitiaki role
Release date: 29 June 2021
The Reserve Bank of New Zealand – Te Pūtea Matua has outlined its commitment and key priorities as kaitiaki (guardian) of New Zealand’s financial system in its Statement of Intent (SOI) for 2021 – 2024, released today.

Reserve Bank Governor Adrian Orr said Te Pūtea Matua is evolving and transforming into a more modern, agile, and effective central bank to fulfil its ultimate purpose of Toitu te Ōhanga, Toitu te Oranga (enabling the prosperity and wellbeing of all New Zealanders).

The Reserve Bank delivers this purpose through its mandate of operating monetary policy to maintain low and stable inflation and contribute to maximum sustainable employment, promoting a sound and efficient financial system, meeting the public’s cash needs, and overseeing effective payments systems.

“We approach our mandate in a holistic manner by looking at a broad range of challenges and opportunities that impact our effectiveness as kaitiaki. We see progressing initiatives such as Te Ōhanga Māori, Climate Risk, and South Pacific Remittances as key to our purpose and vision,” Mr Orr said.

“Over the near-term, we will continue to make investments in our people, processes and systems through our Transformation Programme. This will enable us to build capability for the future, ensuring that we are well-equipped to perform our role.”

The Reserve Bank’s modernisation is being driven by legislative reform. The new Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act, due for Royal Assent later this year, sets out the Reserve Bank’s future operational and governance arrangements. The new Deposit Takers Act, expected to pass in 2023, will introduce a deposit insurance scheme and will modernise the Reserve Bank’s regulatory processes.

“We remain prepared to navigate the challenges presented by our economic and financial environment. We have a clear purpose, vision and values, which will enable us to assist the longer-term wellbeing of New Zealanders, now and into the future,” Mr Orr said.

Balance
13-07-2021, 03:39 PM
Come on mate, don't you know that Te Pūtea Matua is committed to it's kaitiaki role and advancing Te Ōhanga Māori.

[/I]

Adrian Orr can kiss my arse with his Maori myth making and policy settings.

Balance
13-07-2021, 03:58 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/silly-decisions-mike-king-slams-pms-funding-of-gang-rehab-but-not-gumboot-friday/XPLTEW5H5E5T356NUR2N2URMOI/

Ok to fund gangs but not mental health - that’s how cynical Cindy is.

iceman
13-07-2021, 04:40 PM
Come on mate, don't you know that Te Pūtea Matua is committed to it's kaitiaki role and advancing Te Ōhanga Māori.

https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/news/2021/06/reserve-bank-committed-to-its-kaitiaki-role

Reserve Bank committed to its kaitiaki role
Release date: 29 June 2021
The Reserve Bank of New Zealand – Te Pūtea Matua has outlined its commitment and key priorities as kaitiaki (guardian) of New Zealand’s financial system in its Statement of Intent (SOI) for 2021 – 2024, released today.

Reserve Bank Governor Adrian Orr said Te Pūtea Matua is evolving and transforming into a more modern, agile, and effective central bank to fulfil its ultimate purpose of Toitu te Ōhanga, Toitu te Oranga (enabling the prosperity and wellbeing of all New Zealanders).

The Reserve Bank delivers this purpose through its mandate of operating monetary policy to maintain low and stable inflation and contribute to maximum sustainable employment, promoting a sound and efficient financial system, meeting the public’s cash needs, and overseeing effective payments systems.

“We approach our mandate in a holistic manner by looking at a broad range of challenges and opportunities that impact our effectiveness as kaitiaki. We see progressing initiatives such as Te Ōhanga Māori, Climate Risk, and South Pacific Remittances as key to our purpose and vision,” Mr Orr said.

“Over the near-term, we will continue to make investments in our people, processes and systems through our Transformation Programme. This will enable us to build capability for the future, ensuring that we are well-equipped to perform our role.”

The Reserve Bank’s modernisation is being driven by legislative reform. The new Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act, due for Royal Assent later this year, sets out the Reserve Bank’s future operational and governance arrangements. The new Deposit Takers Act, expected to pass in 2023, will introduce a deposit insurance scheme and will modernise the Reserve Bank’s regulatory processes.

“We remain prepared to navigate the challenges presented by our economic and financial environment. We have a clear purpose, vision and values, which will enable us to assist the longer-term wellbeing of New Zealanders, now and into the future,” Mr Orr said.

What on earth does all this crap even mean ?

Entrep
13-07-2021, 04:49 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/silly-decisions-mike-king-slams-pms-funding-of-gang-rehab-but-not-gumboot-friday/XPLTEW5H5E5T356NUR2N2URMOI/

Ok to fund gangs but not mental health - that’s how cynical Cindy is.

100% this. Go Mike King. This whole thing is a very sick joke indeed.

Logen Ninefingers
13-07-2021, 04:56 PM
What on earth does all this crap even mean ?

Please find an explantion from Te Pūtea Matua as below:

https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/about-us/our-vision-and-values

Our vision is our guiding star or puanga.

In Te Ao Māori we describe our vision on a deeper level as Matangirua ki Matangireia: working as one, towards our ultimate purpose.

Matangirua is the call made by a captain on a sailing vessel for everyone to paddle and unfurl the sail at the same time. Being a ‘Great Team’ is about being ‘fit for purpose’ – cost effective, risk aware, working collectively in a sustainable way. To achieve our vision of being a ‘Great Team’ our people must be unified by our purpose, everyone understanding what they need to do and moving together in the right direction.

Matangirea is the place in the sky where Tane climbed to bring back the 3 baskets of knowledge. To become the ‘Best Central Bank’ we must scale new heights, reaching for the sky in pursuit of our purpose.

Our values
Our values guide our behaviours and provide the foundation for our people to flourish.

They are:

Wānanga/Innovation — Innovation stems from knowledge gained through our diverse perspectives
Tauira/Integrity — Integrity is sustained through self-reflection and modelling our shared principles
Taura/Inclusion — Inclusion binds our individual strengths together enabling our resilience and collective success.

Balance
13-07-2021, 05:19 PM
Please find an explantion from Te Pūtea Matua as below:

https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/about-us/our-vision-and-values

Our vision is our guiding star or puanga.

In Te Ao Māori we describe our vision on a deeper level as Matangirua ki Matangireia: working as one, towards our ultimate purpose.

Matangirua is the call made by a captain on a sailing vessel for everyone to paddle and unfurl the sail at the same time. Being a ‘Great Team’ is about being ‘fit for purpose’ – cost effective, risk aware, working collectively in a sustainable way. To achieve our vision of being a ‘Great Team’ our people must be unified by our purpose, everyone understanding what they need to do and moving together in the right direction.

Matangirea is the place in the sky where Tane climbed to bring back the 3 baskets of knowledge. To become the ‘Best Central Bank’ we must scale new heights, reaching for the sky in pursuit of our purpose.

Our values
Our values guide our behaviours and provide the foundation for our people to flourish.

They are:

Wānanga/Innovation — Innovation stems from knowledge gained through our diverse perspectives
Tauira/Integrity — Integrity is sustained through self-reflection and modelling our shared principles
Taura/Inclusion — Inclusion binds our individual strengths together enabling our resilience and collective success.

Orr is clearly one of those mentioned in a recent article who attaches himself to anything Maori to entrench power - such is the order of NZ today.

And it will be to the detriment of NZ in the future when all this Maori myth making takes the country back 100 years.

Balance
13-07-2021, 05:20 PM
deleted .........

BlackPeter
13-07-2021, 05:42 PM
BP, don't assume what I don't know.



I take that communication theory is not your major? Have a crack at it and you will find out that any communication is impossible without making assumptions about what the recipient does or does not know :):

Having said that ... I don't know to which alleged assumptions (sic) your sentence is referring to, i.e. I can't possibly answer ...




Your post illustrates that you don't see the slippery slope Ardern and those who advocate Identity Politics take us. Laws that discriminate according to race are a terrible idea. Once you do that extremists from either side can take it where they like. Apartheid was to keep separate, and do so by discriminating by race. Look where that led.


I suppose (damn - again) that we agree that Adern is quite good in making promises without fulfilling them. I give you as well that instead of solving the problems she promised to solve prior to the elections (housing, child poverty, ....) she started instead a lot of new initiatives which she did not mention prior to the elections, and which might have a quite significant impact on our life and on the country. I agree as well that this impact might well turn out to be quite negative and difficult to reverse (more bureaucracy and yes, more racism - or at least changed racism to govern the country). So - yes (or no in the sense of your above statement), I do see what you might want to call a slippery slope.





NZ has walked a fine line on this for many years. I, personally would argue there is no further need for the Maori Roll and seats in the House. When they were implemented there was a case for it, as many Maori would have relied on their Chiefs and kaumatua to vote for them. That is no longer the case.


You lost me here. The Maori roll is just an extension to the otherwise regional electorate system. The purpose is to make sure that the people who want to have a Maori candidate are able to vote for one (and have a chance to get this candidate into parliament) ... similar as the people in e.g. Christchurch typically will vote for a Christchurch candidate.

The Maori roll might make the system slightly more complicated, but it does not give Maori any additional vote or undue influence. Given that they do have a particular status in the country and given that they are in most parts of the country in the minority (I.e. would not get a Maori candidate if they wanted one) - what exactly is the problem?

Has nothing to do with chiefs voting for them ...




Ardern is an intellectual light weight who has no clue how dangerous she is. Andrew Little likewise. Ardern is even more dangerous as she is disingenuous and cynical in the extreme. NZ has had a masterclass in propaganda from her, that's her strength. That's it. A walking, talking mouthpiece.

I would not call her a "light weight" - but, as most other people there are areas where she is strong and other areas where she is less strong. She is good in communicating the things she wants to communicate but quite inept in implementing them (however I am not sure whether this is because she is not able to or not willing to).

I think - given the right team she might make a quite good PM, and lets face it - given the alternative she still might be the best PM NZ can have.

I agree however that there are clear risks given the currently proposed legislation. It is either dangerous as you said, or it is very poorly communicated, which would be surprising.

Well, lets better try to get an opposition on the row which is worth its money. Currently there is only a void I can see apart from a bunch of diehard rednecks and back-knifers who - standalone - will never win the next or any other election.

Better be nice to the liberal wing National did cut off - shall we?

jonu
13-07-2021, 06:26 PM
I take that communication theory is not your major? Have a crack at it and you will find out that any communication is impossible without making assumptions about what the recipient does or does not know :):

Having said that ... I don't know to which alleged assumptions (sic) your sentence is referring to, i.e. I can't possibly answer ...


I suppose (damn - again) that we agree that Adern is quite good in making promises without fulfilling them. I give you as well that instead of solving the problems she promised to solve prior to the elections (housing, child poverty, ....) she started instead a lot of new initiatives which she did not mention prior to the elections, and which might have a quite significant impact on our life and on the country. I agree as well that this impact might well turn out to be quite negative and difficult to reverse (more bureaucracy and yes, more racism - or at least changed racism to govern the country). So - yes (or no in the sense of your above statement), I do see what you might want to call a slippery slope.


You lost me here. The Maori roll is just an extension to the otherwise regional electorate system. The purpose is to make sure that the people who want to have a Maori candidate are able to vote for one (and have a chance to get this candidate into parliament) ... similar as the people in e.g. Christchurch typically will vote for a Christchurch candidate.

The Maori roll might make the system slightly more complicated, but it does not give Maori any additional vote or undue influence. Given that they do have a particular status in the country and given that they are in most parts of the country in the minority (I.e. would not get a Maori candidate if they wanted one) - what exactly is the problem?

Has nothing to do with chiefs voting for them ...



I would not call her a "light weight" - but, as most other people there are areas where she is strong and other areas where she is less strong. She is good in communicating the things she wants to communicate but quite inept in implementing them (however I am not sure whether this is because she is not able to or not willing to).

I think - given the right team she might make a quite good PM, and lets face it - given the alternative she still might be the best PM NZ can have.

I agree however that there are clear risks given the currently proposed legislation. It is either dangerous as you said, or it is very poorly communicated, which would be surprising.

Well, lets better try to get an opposition on the row which is worth its money. Currently there is only a void I can see apart from a bunch of diehard rednecks and back-knifers who - standalone - will never win the next or any other election.

Better be nice to the liberal wing National did cut off - shall we?

Very restrained BP....kudos.

You assumed I didn't understand apartheid. I understand it very well.

Regarding the Maori seats, do some research around their historical origins and you might better understand what I was saying about the representation that was needed in the 19th Century.

If you think the Maori seats don't currently have undue influence under MMP, consider Helen Clark losing all of them to NZ First and her subsequent downfall. Consider why Ardern is kowtowing to Maori at every opportunity in an effort to keep the Maori Party at bay.

Good to note you have finally seen through Ardern's BS at any rate. I hope there are many more doing the same.

Bjauck
13-07-2021, 07:35 PM
...
The Reserve Bank delivers this purpose through its mandate of operating monetary policy to maintain low and stable inflation and contribute to maximum sustainable employment, promoting a sound and efficient financial system, meeting the public’s cash needs, and overseeing effective payments systems... In his Matariki New Year address I presume his remit just covers "consumer" price inflation and excludes House Price inflation, which has been anything but low and sits like a exclusive house at the edge of cliff waiting for globally warmed oceans to make it tumble down.

Bjauck
13-07-2021, 07:53 PM
BP, don't assume what I don't know. Your post illustrates that you don't see the slippery slope Ardern and those who advocate Identity Politics take us. Laws that discriminate according to race are a terrible idea. Once you do that extremists from either side can take it where they like. Apartheid was to keep separate, and do so by discriminating by race. Look where that led.....

Back over the centuries those who made good use of "Identity politics" were the old establishments, often the rightists and the reactionaries. They were the ones who claimed to identify racial and sexual characteristics and then proceeded to keep those same "identified" groups in the place they had in mind for them.

During wars and social upheavals, the establishment of course made good use of identity politics to label and characterise their enemy groups so that propaganda could be directed to whip up their intended audience into a feverish reaction.

Is it just the identity politics (actually I think more correctly it should be called counter-identity politics) of those groups who are now trying to counter and eradicate the inherited identity, previously imposed on them by past elites, that you object to?

peetter
13-07-2021, 10:03 PM
Back over the centuries those who made good use of "Identity politics" were the old establishments, often the rightists and the reactionaries. They were the ones who claimed to identify racial and sexual characteristics and then proceeded to keep those same "identified" groups in the place they had in mind for them.

During wars and social upheavals, the establishment of course made good use of identity politics to label and characterise their enemy groups so that propaganda could be directed to whip up their intended audience into a feverish reaction.

Is it just the identity politics (actually I think more correctly it should be called counter-identity politics) of those groups who are now trying to counter and eradicate the inherited identity, previously imposed on them by past elites, that you object to?

I am pretty sure he is saying that doing any policies based on race is backwards and return back to racism.

jonu
13-07-2021, 10:46 PM
Back over the centuries those who made good use of "Identity politics" were the old establishments, often the rightists and the reactionaries. They were the ones who claimed to identify racial and sexual characteristics and then proceeded to keep those same "identified" groups in the place they had in mind for them.

During wars and social upheavals, the establishment of course made good use of identity politics to label and characterise their enemy groups so that propaganda could be directed to whip up their intended audience into a feverish reaction.

Is it just the identity politics (actually I think more correctly it should be called counter-identity politics) of those groups who are now trying to counter and eradicate the inherited identity, previously imposed on them by past elites, that you object to?

Your last paragraph is pretty hard to take seriously. DYOR on Identity Politics and its links to Post-modern Marxism.

Panda-NZ-
14-07-2021, 12:42 AM
Consider why Ardern is kowtowing to Maori at every opportunity in an effort to keep the Maori Party at bay.


Yes the "maori party" would never have existed without those seats. Probably a good thing.

Having parties based on race should have died out a century ago.

Bjauck
14-07-2021, 07:02 AM
Your last paragraph is pretty hard to take seriously. DYOR on Identity Politics and its links to Post-modern Marxism. So you are happy to accept the identity delineated and previously imposed by vested interests. I now understand now that you want to rely on politics based on identity. It is the politics based on reaction to imposed identity that you are against.

jonu
14-07-2021, 08:05 AM
So you are happy to accept the identity delineated and previously imposed by vested interests. I now understand now that you want to rely on politics based on identity. It is the politics based on reaction to imposed identity that you are against.

No.

Your first two paragraphs at least made a reasonably coherent argument and held elements of truth, even if stereotyping, bigotry and racism better suited the description.

I absolutely do not want to rely on politics based on identity, or "imposed identity". Those fixated on claiming victim status according to race, gender and what ever colour of the rainbow they can separate is what Identity Politics is about. Along with the assumption that because someone is of the same race/grouping they can represent others of the same race/grouping. The whole thing is a perverse form of bigotry and stereotyping.

Again, DYOR on the links between Post-modern Marxism and Identity Politics. Join the dots. Nothing good will come of it. It may well destroy Western civilisation, which is exactly what the Post-modern Marxists set out to do after WW2 when they knew the Soviet Union wouldn't manage it.

The West is a long way from perfect and certainly needs economic reform. Strangely, it is the Socialist interventions of Reserve Banks around the world causing most of the economic problems. This has had the effect of serving unfettered Capitalists very well and made things even more inequitable. Identity Politics is not the answer.

Bjauck
14-07-2021, 09:20 AM
...
The West is a long way from perfect and certainly needs economic reform. Strangely, it is the Socialist interventions of Reserve Banks around the world causing most of the economic problems. This has had the effect of serving unfettered Capitalists very well and made things even more inequitable. Identity Politics is not the answer. "Socialist" interventions have always existed - with monarchs/governments imposing taxes and regulations whenever they thought circumstances or treasury warranted them.

Certainly the mix between fiscal and monetary interventions need fine tuning. The way that interest rates are set in NZ is deficient imo as asset price inflation has been given relatively minor importance. That can magnify disparity.

Sir Ten
15-07-2021, 10:53 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300357755/covid19-baffling-graph-showed-twice-as-many-second-vaccine-doses-as-first

Not transparent. Just useless.

BlackPeter
15-07-2021, 11:09 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300357755/covid19-baffling-graph-showed-twice-as-many-second-vaccine-doses-as-first

Not transparent. Just useless.

I guess the poor sods clearly went through the NZ maths curriculum. This is what you get if you tell people over decades that maths is not important. Not their fault - they just don't know what they are doing :);

dobby41
15-07-2021, 12:52 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300357755/covid19-baffling-graph-showed-twice-as-many-second-vaccine-doses-as-first

Not transparent. Just useless.

I'm not sure why are having another go at this - was pretty much hashed out at the time.

jonu
15-07-2021, 02:18 PM
I'm not sure why are having another go at this - was pretty much hashed out at the time.

Because the true depth of dishonesty among the PR rabble that Ardern has employed across all departments has now been fully exposed through complaining to the Ombudsman. Not only was the graph BS, they knew it was BS, and argued amongst themselves as to whether they should continue to defend it. Note also the missed deadlines on releasing information. This is OUR government, not some dodgy foreign power trying to pull the wool over our eyes. They are using OUR money to BS us about their obvious incompetency.

Clear and transparent....that's Ardern alright.

Appalling. Ardern should take responsibility for the culture she has grown. She promised the most "Clear and Transparent" government and has set about ensuring it is the exact opposite. When will she front the public expressing her outrage at the millions being spent by the PR rabble to lie to us? This has to be one of the most glaring exposures of her government's true nature. Dishonest, cynical and incompetent.

Bjauck
15-07-2021, 02:39 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300357755/covid19-baffling-graph-showed-twice-as-many-second-vaccine-doses-as-first

Not transparent. Just useless. Graphs are supposed to help make data easier to understand. That graph is a mess. Maybe the proof readers and double checkers were on holidays.

Even if the second dose depiction is supposed to be cumulative to the first - it still makes no sense towards December.

artemis
15-07-2021, 03:01 PM
I'm not sure why are having another go at this - was pretty much hashed out at the time.

There were questions at the time, yes even from the media. That is not this same as 'hashed out'. Maybe it was 'hashed out' behind closed doors as some at the MoH tried to work out if the underlying data could be commercially sensitive once multiple requests for the data under the OIA were received.

As they say, the cover up is worse than the 'crime'.

Bill Smith
16-07-2021, 08:35 AM
Christ. Only someone dancing on the head of a pin would make such a comment. (reply to Dobbin)

Balance
16-07-2021, 09:11 AM
https://www.national.org.nz/demand-the-debate

Pretty clear this government is taking NZ down a separatist path of two unequalled nations under the one country - by stealth and without the consent of the majority of NZers.

Let your voice be heard.

Bjauck
16-07-2021, 09:12 AM
Christ. Only someone dancing on the head of a pin would make such a comment. (reply to Dobbin) I guess it is not the Spanish Inquisition. Proof check and reading mistakes do indeed happen. Who is Dobbin?

jonu
16-07-2021, 09:20 AM
https://www.national.org.nz/demand-the-debate

Pretty clear this government is taking NZ down a separatist path of two unequalled nations under the one country - by stealth and without the consent of the majority of NZers.

Let your voice be heard.

Thanks for the link. Good to see the Opposition finally doing their job.

What a subversive bunch Ardern has in her cohort. It is idealogically driven. If they are allowed to continue, they will absolutely stuff this country.

Blue Skies
16-07-2021, 09:33 AM
Christ. Only someone dancing on the head of a pin would make such a comment. (reply to Dobbin)


If you've got something to worthwhile to say, a rational argument, say it, rather than just making provocative insults.

fungus pudding
16-07-2021, 09:34 AM
PM's dept increases staff by 80% from 186 to 332 in a year. Interesting. I suppose they can keep another 146 staff doing something - somehow. Although I suspect they'll do more harm than good trying to justify their positions.
12748

Logen Ninefingers
16-07-2021, 10:02 AM
This radical government continues with their plan to scrap the New Zealand democracy as we have known it and replace it with a new entity known as Aotearoa where the 'government' co-governs with Maori.

Hence the so-called 'Three Waters' reforms which includes a mass marketing campaign (propaganda / brainwashing: "Imagine Aotearoa without good water – what a stink as place that would be") -

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/three-waters-govt-secures-top-kiwi-actress-for-35m-ad-campaign-slammed-as-a-smear/PHDBXUZHL5O5DF7UOJDKUGTJAQ/

And now $2.5 Billion in bribes to councils to allow the goverment to strip them of their water assets.

Once these water assets are locked up in the new crown entity 'Taumata Arowai' - website below - NZ's water will be on a path to be owned jointly by the government & Iwi.
New Zealand does not exist on this website: the country is invariably described as 'Aotearoa'.

https://www.taumataarowai.govt.nz/

'Wai ora. Tangata ora.
Healthy water. Healthy people.
Ko te Taumata Arowai he wāhi whakaaroaro
i waenga i te wai me te tangata, me
tūhonohono tētahi ki tētahi.
Taumata Arowai serves as a reflection point
between wai and tangata,
people and water and their connection.'

-----

'Ko Te Manatū Hauora te kaiwhakarite wai inu i tēnei wā. Ka riro i a te Taumata Arowai te mana whakahaere mai i Te Manatū Hauora ina mana te Ture Ratonga Wai, ko te tikanga hei te wāhanga tuarua o 2021.

The Ministry of Health is the current drinking water regulator. Taumata Arowai will become fully operational when it takes over from the Ministry of Health following the commencement of the Water Services Act, expected to be in the second half of 2021.

We are a Crown entity with a Ministerial-appointed board. Alongside the independent board will be a Māori Advisory Group.

Our name Taumata Arowai was gifted to us by Hon Nanaia Mahuta, Minister of Local Government.

The name creates an identity for Taumata Arowai. Taumata is used to refer to a summit or gathering of people coming together around an important area of focus. This speaks to the importance of our kaupapa, the bringing together of people to reach a shared goal, and the weight and responsibility to our role as a regulator.'

fungus pudding
16-07-2021, 10:05 AM
I guess it is not the Spanish Inquisition. Proof check and reading mistakes do indeed happen. Who is Dobbin?

And what was the comment?

Balance
16-07-2021, 12:04 PM
Thanks for the link. Good to see the Opposition finally doing their job.

What a subversive bunch Ardern has in her cohort. It is idealogically driven. If they are allowed to continue, they will absolutely stuff this country.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/125759514/live-tractors-hit-the-road-for-howl-of-a-protest

The fight back against Cindy & her team of incompetents begins.

Takes a lot to get the average Kiwi to become really aggro and good on the rural sector to start the ball rolling towards this Separatist divisive government.

BlackPeter
16-07-2021, 12:26 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/125759514/live-tractors-hit-the-road-for-howl-of-a-protest

The fight back against Cindy & her team of incompetents begins.

Takes a lot to get the average Kiwi to become really aggro and good on the rural sector to start the ball rolling towards this Separatist divisive government.

Well, to be honest - I find the protests against the so called ute tax in this day and age ridiculous.

Most of the SUV's / Utes these days are driven by city folks on their way to the next latte or avocado sandwich or to bring their children who can't walk anymore to school. They are quite happy to endanger with their oversized Ute / SUV all sort of pedestrians, cyclists and folks in still a bit more economical vehicles, to clog up parking spaces in town and at the same time to drive up our CO2 emissions.

It is a great idea to tax these environmental monsters which as well drive up our road deaths. Could we please double or tripple the ute tax? This would be a request worth howling for ...

Every Ute / SUV not used on the farm (or for other outdoors work) is only increasing our CO2 output without any benefit other than increasing the ego (to stay with a PC term) of the driver.

I find it difficult to understand how dumb, selfish and environmentally unaware these farmers are to make these highly inappropriate noises in support of the SUV lobby and in that course further polluting our environment. I know there are as well responsible and environmentally aware farmers, but unfortunately its not the quiet ones you hear in the howling chorus wanting to destroy our planet.

Quite interesting as well to imagine that it is the same farmers who now make noises for destroying our environment who hold out their hands if they have to suffer from the consequences of climate change - made worse by the pollution created by the very utes they want everybody to drive as cheap as possible.

Actually - I think they are doing an amazing job to drive voters back to Green and (unfortunately) to Labour.

BlackPeter
16-07-2021, 12:27 PM
just another doppelgänger removed :):

Bjauck
16-07-2021, 01:18 PM
Well, to be honest - I find the protests against the so called ute tax in this day and age ridiculous.

Most of the SUV's / Utes these days are driven by city folks on their way to the next late or avocado sandwich and endangering with their oversized Ute / SUV all sort of pedestrians, cyclists and folks in still a bit more economical vehicles, clogging up parking spaces in town and at the same time driving up our CO2 emissions.
... I laughed and almost choked on my pine nut and sun-dried tomato Quiche Lorraine when I read this. Very true - as I drive from rural South Auckland to Remuera I encounter in Remuera many more sparkling mud-free top of the range "Toorak Tractors" - Utes and 4WDs

artemis
16-07-2021, 02:51 PM
SUVs in leafy suburbs perhaps. Utes not so much.

fungus pudding
16-07-2021, 03:02 PM
SUVs in leafy suburbs perhaps. Utes not so much.

Certainly don't see many Utes, but SUVs are very popular because of ease of egress. But many are as economical as midsize saloon cars. E.g the Honda hrv is just the Honda Jazz sitting higher.

Balance
16-07-2021, 03:15 PM
Most of the SUV's / Utes these days are driven by city folks on their way to the next latte or avocado sandwich or to bring their children who can't walk anymore to school. They are quite happy to endanger with their oversized Ute / SUV all sort of pedestrians, cyclists and folks in still a bit more economical vehicles, to clog up parking spaces in town and at the same time to drive up our CO2 emissions.

Every Ute / SUV not used on the farm (or for other outdoors work) is only increasing our CO2 output without any benefit other than increasing the ego (to stay with a PC term) of the driver.

I find it difficult to understand how dumb, selfish and environmentally unaware these farmers are to make these highly inappropriate noises in support of the SUV lobby and in that course further polluting our environment. I know there are as well responsible and environmentally aware farmers, but unfortunately its not the quiet ones you hear in the howling chorus wanting to destroy our planet.



Really?

You must live in a different NZ than most of the rest of us.

BlackPeter
16-07-2021, 03:31 PM
Really?

You must live in a different NZ than most of the rest of us.

Maybe ... but maybe I am just keeping my eyes open and observe what I am seeing - without applying political filters.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/113716371/suvs-and-utes-are-still-taking-over-new-zealand-roads

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018803743/suv-and-double-cab-ute-advertising-targeting-urban-dwellers

Maybe you just need to open your eyes (makes driving safer anyway) - or is it that you just don't notice the other SUV / Ute drivers on the way to the school and supermarket because your are driving the BIGGEST one??

(Edit) But hold on, on revisiting your post - maybe you did not refer to my statement re SUV / UTE's driven by city dwellers, but you just questioned my statement that there are as well responsible farmers around? If latter is the case - I am happy to withdraw and apologize ... clearly - balance must know better :p ;

Whatever it is - if one side at election time is supported by howling farmers keen to allow everybody to destroy the globe as fast as possible, then I think I better support the people who want to stem this madness :):

Logen Ninefingers
16-07-2021, 03:33 PM
After this governments assault on democracy & abject failure on housing (case in point: KiwiBuild) it will be inflation, interest rate increases (by a pitiful degree mind you), and flat to falling house prices that bring them down. Middle NZ looking for someone to blame for their own delighted romp through housing and indulgence at the borrowing trough coming back to bite them.

I spoke to a typical NZ hard-working bloke recently who says he doesn't read anything about the central banks or money because he likes to form his own opinions. His own personal opinion is that 'they' would simply push out mortage term limits & then the next step would be to make mortgages inter-generational. The party could therefore go on forever. He said that debt is the way to go and there are 'billionaires' out there that owe a billion dollars. He said at the end of the day all everyone wants is the flash house & the boat.

So again, people care nothing about the big poloitcial and societal issues of the day. They believe what the sound-bites on the news tell them, and don't care to dig any deeper. They only get motivated to turn against the ruling political party of the day if they see their own personal wealth declining or under threat, & need someone to blame.

Balance
16-07-2021, 03:44 PM
Maybe ... but maybe I am just keeping my eyes open and observe what I am seeing - without applying political filters.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/113716371/suvs-and-utes-are-still-taking-over-new-zealand-roads

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018803743/suv-and-double-cab-ute-advertising-targeting-urban-dwellers

Maybe you just need to open your eyes (makes driving safer anyway) - or is it that you just don't notice the other SUV / Ute drivers on the way to the school and supermarket because your are driving the BIGGEST one??

Do not own a Ute or SUV so you just fired yet another blank.

I agree that urban dwellers driving ute and outsized SUVs are a problem - so increase the taxes on them by all means.

But there is no logic about utes owned & used for business by farmers & tradies to be subject to the increased taxes when the alternative of electric is simply unavailable.

This government is anti-business because it does not have a single businessperson with real world experience of creating value so it thinks it can apply the same brush across everything.

Except when it comes to Maori separatism - then different brushes are applied.

Oh, I forgot about Cindy's business experience of working in a fish & chip shop.

Logen Ninefingers
16-07-2021, 03:45 PM
Just by mentioning employment, Robbo is giving the Reserve Bank a nudge and wink. We are appparently not at maximum sustainable employment.....lol.....meanwhile businesses are crying out for overseas workers because they can't get staff. What a joke.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/125733642/nzs-jump-in-inflation-to-33-a-problem-of-growth-says-finance-minister

He said he would not tell the Reserve Bank how to do its job, or to pick between its employment mandate and inflation mandate.

“The [Bank] is perfectly capable of looking at both parts of the mandate and working out how to manage that in any given situation,” Robertson said.

Robertson did not believe the country was at maximum sustainable employment, and said he had no intention of rolling back any fiscal stimulus – noting most of that had already been deployed.

BlackPeter
16-07-2021, 03:59 PM
Do not own a Ute or SUV so you just fired yet another blank.



Quite stupid reaction - I just asked a legitimate question, but hey - just show us who you are.



But there is no logic about utes owned & used for business by farmers & tradies to be subject to the increased taxes when the alternative of electric is simply unavailable.


Lets face it - this is a storm in a teacup. The additional cost to a farmer or trady for buying a new ute would be (as long as there is no EV alternative around) say $6k. This is over the average life time of this vehicle (20 years) what - $300 pa?

Obviously any trady or farmer can write off these additional costs from their tax bill, which reduces the average $300 pa to $200 pa (assuming 33% tax rate).

How much does it cost them to skip a day at work and howl through our cities?

Is this what the noise is all about? $200 additional tax for a business until there are suitable EV Utes around? Shame - and what bunch of idiots to waste their valuable working time for such a ridiculous cause.

Balance
16-07-2021, 03:59 PM
Just by mentioning employment, Robbo is giving the Reserve Bank a nudge and wink. We are appparently not at maximum sustainable employment.....lol.....meanwhile businesses are crying out for overseas workers because they can't get staff. What a joke.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/125733642/nzs-jump-in-inflation-to-33-a-problem-of-growth-says-finance-minister

He said he would not tell the Reserve Bank how to do its job, or to pick between its employment mandate and inflation mandate.

“The [Bank] is perfectly capable of looking at both parts of the mandate and working out how to manage that in any given situation,” Robertson said.

Robertson did not believe the country was at maximum sustainable employment, and said he had no intention of rolling back any fiscal stimulus – noting most of that had already been deployed.

Means interest rates go up and much faster.

Balance
16-07-2021, 04:01 PM
Quite stupid reaction - I just asked a legitimate question, but hey - just show us who you are.



Lets face it - this is a storm in a teacup. The additional cost to a farmer or trady for buying a new ute would be (as long as there is no EV alternative around) say $6k. This is over the average life time of this vehicle (20 years) what - $300 pa?

Obviously any trady or farmer can write off these additional costs from their tax bill, which reduces the average $300 pa to $200 pa (assuming 33% tax rate).

How much does it cost them to skip a day at work and howl through our cities?

Is this what the noise is all about? $200 additional tax for a business until there are suitable EV Utes around? Shame - and what bunch of idiots to waste their valuable working time for such a ridiculous cause.

You actually think the protests are just about the Ute tax?????

Really???

What part of this did you not read?

‘The Howl of a Protest event, organised by Groundswell New Zealand, has seen thousands of farm vehicles rumbling through cities in protest against what farmers say is increasing interference from the Government, unworkable regulations and unjustified costs.’

jonu
16-07-2021, 04:05 PM
Quite stupid reaction - I just asked a legitimate question, but hey - just show us who you are.



Lets face it - this is a storm in a teacup. The additional cost to a farmer or trady for buying a new ute would be (as long as there is no EV alternative around) say $6k. This is over the average life time of this vehicle (20 years) what - $300 pa?

Obviously any trady or farmer can write off these additional costs from their tax bill, which reduces the average $300 pa to $200 pa (assuming 33% tax rate).

How much does it cost them to skip a day at work and howl through our cities?

Is this what the noise is all about? $200 additional tax for a business until there are suitable EV Utes around? Shame - and what bunch of idiots to waste their valuable working time for such a ridiculous cause.

And Ardern says there is no rural/urban divide. But then again, you voted her in...

Had to laugh this morning....a member of the public videoed tractors gathering this morning and sent it to the Herald. You could hear the person filming commenting on the similarity of the tractors....he said "what are they?....John Dearie?" Kind of highlights how out of touch Urban folk are with farmers.

Logen Ninefingers
16-07-2021, 04:07 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/opinion/125765777/will-the-farmers-be-heard

It was a particularly unworthy characterisation from Greens co-leader and Climate Change Minister James Shaw to have quite so dismissively referred to the initial organisers as “a couple of Pākehā farmers from down south’’.

For one thing, it’s a shabby thing that he was willing to suggest it was in some way significant that neither was Māori, as if this carried some loss of status in the issue.

For another it would be a difficult thing for any Green to be anything other than admiring of McKenzie’s founding member role in the Pomahaka Water Care Group, rightly celebrated for its effectiveness in improving a catchment’s water quality.

BlackPeter
16-07-2021, 04:11 PM
You actually think the protests are just about the Ute tax?????

Really???

Well, since they noticed that this might be unpopular some of their spokespeople started to think about some other reasons for howling through our cities as well. So .... yes, we obviously are as well concerned about ....

Anyway - whoever organized that should fire their PR staff and stop to give people oxygen who seem to think with their testicles. They are a disgrace to our farmers. This day is a PR disaster for them ... and certainly neither beneficial for any justified cause of the farmers nor damaging to the current government.

Balance
16-07-2021, 04:28 PM
Well, since they noticed that this might be unpopular some of their spokespeople started to think about some other reasons for howling through our cities as well. So .... yes, we obviously are as well concerned about ....

Anyway - whoever organized that should fire their PR staff and stop to give people oxygen who seem to think with their testicles. They are a disgrace to our farmers. This day is a PR disaster for them ... and certainly neither beneficial for any justified cause of the farmers nor damaging to the current government.

Garbage - the Groundswell NZ group has been very clear about why the protests are being organized right from day 1 :

"If you are a Farmer, a Grower or a Ute owner and you are fed up with increasing Government interference in your life and business, unworkable regulations and unjustified costs then please join in! Bring your Tractor or Ute and a couple of Dogs, FRIDAY 16 JULY 2021."

Disaster only in your mind.

No government minister or spokesperson to be seen anywhere tells you that the protest is a resounding success.

You obviously think the multitude of PR staff hired by Cindy to promote falsehood, BS and spin as a wonderful thing - a great success as far as you are concerned.

That comes across really clearly. I can already see you swallowing the spin that the protest is all about the Ute tax whole. Enjoy!

BlackPeter
16-07-2021, 05:25 PM
Disaster only in your mind.

No government minister or spokesperson to be seen anywhere tells you that the protest is a resounding success.

You obviously think the multitude of PR staff hired by Cindy to promote falsehood, BS and spin as a wonderful thing - a great success as far as you are concerned.

That comes across really clearly. I can already see you swallowing the spin that the protest is all about the Ute tax whole. Enjoy!

balance, you are (as so often) barking up the wrong tree. I am not the enemy, but I tend to call a spade a spade, even if it does not suit my political views.

As well - this has nothing to do with what the government may or may not tell us. This was a huge own-goal scored by a bunch of testicle driven environmental destroyers. Don't believe me, just wait for the impact of this dumb exercise on the next election, whenever it comes. Cindy will be quite happy with the outcome.

I am sure Labour can - sadly - use this footage for a long time to gain political points.

Blue Skies
16-07-2021, 05:45 PM
Just out of interest I found out the actual increased tax on the often quoted farmers ute, Ford Ranger 4x4 XLT from 2022 will be, $4,370 & on the Wild Track version $4,660.

Can still order one before end of this year & avoid the tax.

More than I thought but with the planet burning up, something needs to be done urgently to reduce carbon emissions & I have faith Ford and Toyota etc will develop EV or Hybrid Utes within a couple of years to add to their growing number of EV & Hybrid fleets.

Lots of protests about the 'Ute tax' but the other side of that coin is the incentivised $ thousands in reductions on purchase price of most EV or Hybrid.

Blue Skies
16-07-2021, 05:59 PM
I thought this a really good concise summary of the 7 issues the Farmers protest is about.

They do seem very resistant to change, when change is urgently needed, planet burning up/reduce carbon emissions, rivers and waterways polluted, etc.
Realise the protesters do not represent the views of all farmers.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/125759839/what-are-aotearoas-farmers-actually-protesting-about-this-friday

Zaphod
16-07-2021, 06:04 PM
Lots of protests about the 'Ute tax' but the other side of that coin is the incentivised $ thousands in reductions on purchase price of most EV or Hybrid.

The import EV we had our collective eyes on went up in price about 2/3 of what the subsidy provides once the scheme was announced, representing a transfer of wealth from NZ to Japan. We're going to wait a while longer and keep our current car until the market stablises due to the subsidy and the supply chain issues.

dobby41
16-07-2021, 06:27 PM
Just out of interest I found out the actual increased tax on the often quoted farmers ute, Ford Ranger 4x4 XLT from 2022 will be, $4,370 & on the Wild Track version $4,660.

It's a joke really.
Those increases are also depreciable and how much per year does that work out to be?

Balance
16-07-2021, 07:21 PM
It's a joke really.
Those increases are also depreciable and how much per year does that work out to be?

On that logic, all tax increases of such a nature are ok then?

Might as well increase by $20k per Ute then as it’s depreciable, right?

Profoundly flat earth logic from Dobby41 - acknowledged apologist for the BS spinner fish & chip shop business experience Cindy.

fungus pudding
16-07-2021, 07:49 PM
The import EV we had our collective eyes on went up in price about 2/3 of what the subsidy provides once the scheme was announced, representing a transfer of wealth from NZ to Japan. We're going to wait a while longer and keep our current car until the market stablises due to the subsidy and the supply chain issues.

That is proof of another Fungus adage - that subsidies never land where they are meant to.

Bjauck
16-07-2021, 08:03 PM
The import EV we had our collective eyes on went up in price about 2/3 of what the subsidy provides once the scheme was announced, representing a transfer of wealth from NZ to Japan. We're going to wait a while longer and keep our current car until the market stablises due to the subsidy and the supply chain issues.
Maybe the Kiwi car dealers will get a cut of that price increase too. Farmers provide a big chunk of NZ exports so to the extent that their farm vehicles cannot be replaced by EVs, their costs have increased. So the vehicles used in productive activities have been made more expensive whereas the wealthier surburbanites and commuters have access to cheaper EVs & hybrids.

So will the result be more congested surburban roads and less profitable exports? If anything I think the new tax on Utes and 4wds (amongst others) should have been put towards better public transport/infrastructure not in making some other cars cheaper.

SBQ
17-07-2021, 10:26 AM
Am I the only person here to believe this 'carbon' emission tax is not such a bad thing for farmers? We're talking around a 5% - 7% tax here, not really the end of the world. The net benefit is lower CO2 emissions.

If you really want to draw the productivity cards out - consider what's going on in China. Build more coal fire power plants to meet global demand of their products.

Blue Skies
17-07-2021, 11:42 AM
Am I the only person here to believe this 'carbon' emission tax is not such a bad thing for farmers? We're talking around a 5% - 7% tax here, not really the end of the world. The net benefit is lower CO2 emissions.

If you really want to draw the productivity cards out - consider what's going on in China. Build more coal fire power plants to meet global demand of their products.


You're not the only one.
Farmers are getting privileged special treatment which isn't offered to other business/industry sectors in many areas.
e.g. although agriculture contributes almost 50% of NZ's carbon emissions, its exempt from 95% of emission charges. Yet many still seem to think that's too much!
Also given almost $1billion subsidies support with Mycoplasma Bovis scare, plus irrigation subsidies etc.

Yesterday I saw placards placards saying farmers feed NZ as if that should mean they should be exempt from all regulations the rest of us have to comply with, & they are giving their produce away for free.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/114267785/farmers-exempt-from-95-percent-of-emissions-charges-under-new-proposed-rules

Balance
17-07-2021, 01:59 PM
You're not the only one.
Farmers are getting privileged special treatment which isn't offered to other business/industry sectors in many areas.
e.g. although agriculture contributes almost 50% of NZ's carbon emissions, its exempt from 95% of emission charges. Yet many still seem to think that's too much!
Also given almost $1billion subsidies support with Mycoplasma Bovis scare, plus irrigation subsidies etc.

Yesterday I saw placards placards saying farmers feed NZ as if that should mean they should be exempt from all regulations the rest of us have to comply with, & they are giving their produce away for free.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/114267785/farmers-exempt-from-95-percent-of-emissions-charges-under-new-proposed-rules

Open your eyes to read and see, allow your ears to take in what is actually being said - and you may actually become a better person, rather than losing yourself in your own fog of words from closed eyes and ears.

Balance
17-07-2021, 02:04 PM
A good perspective :

Labour can only legislate change, by telling people what to do, taxing and banning things, (free speech, oil exploration, guns).

They can't and haven't actually created anything, kiwibuild, light rail, etc., oh except inflation, more beneficiaries, increase in gun violence, huge debt increase and more homeless & child poverty, despite throwing tens of billions of taxpayers’ monies at said problems.

ynot
17-07-2021, 02:45 PM
A good perspective :

Labour can only legislate change, by telling people what to do, taxing and banning things, (free speech, oil exploration, guns).

They can't and haven't actually created anything, kiwibuild, light rail, etc., oh except inflation, more beneficiaries, increase in gun violence, huge debt increase and more homeless & child poverty, despite throwing tens of billions of taxpayers’ monies at said problems.

Can you imagine a scenario for a moment, that is, having this Labour government indefinitely.
What state would this county be in say 10 - 20 years time.
Bloody terrifying thought isn't it !
Where would the funding come from to build this dream-like utopia this lot have in mind. (if they actually have a plan)
Or would they simply keep on borrowing until we went broke.

dobby41
17-07-2021, 04:26 PM
Open your eyes to read and see, allow your ears to take in what is actually being said - and you may actually become a better person, rather than losing yourself in your own fog of words from closed eyes and ears.

Wise word there - follow them Balance.

dobby41
17-07-2021, 04:30 PM
Am I the only person here to believe this 'carbon' emission tax is not such a bad thing for farmers? We're talking around a 5% - 7% tax here, not really the end of the world. The net benefit is lower CO2 emissions.

If you really want to draw the productivity cards out - consider what's going on in China. Build more coal fire power plants to meet global demand of their products.

Interesting cartoon in the Herald this morning. In short, the message was in reply to
No farmers No food
..
No climate change policies
No farmers No food.

But it is fair to say that we all need to wear some of the impacts of that.
Higher prices, maybe, to ensure we have food into the future.

Bjauck
17-07-2021, 05:05 PM
Am I the only person here to believe this 'carbon' emission tax is not such a bad thing for farmers? We're talking around a 5% - 7% tax here, not really the end of the world. The net benefit is lower CO2 emissions.

If you really want to draw the productivity cards out - consider what's going on in China. Build more coal fire power plants to meet global demand of their products. I am sitting on the fence with respect to this tax. I don’t think there should be a rebate for EVs. However I do accept that carbon emission/polluting needs to be taxed to reflect the cost inflicted on the environment - a user pays charge.

Balance
17-07-2021, 05:11 PM
Wise word there - follow them Balance.

Great you agree dobby41 with me but yet to see you put it into practice.

Blue Skies
17-07-2021, 06:03 PM
I am sitting on the fence with respect to this tax. I don’t think there should be a rebate for EVs. However I do accept that carbon emission/polluting needs to be taxed to reflect the cost inflicted on the environment - a user pays charge.


Imo think its good policy to incentivise the good and penalise the bad, i.e. good to switch to EV's & Hybrids with rebates and penalise the bad - high emission vehicles with a tax if you need to drive change (which we urgently do).
Just driving around Auckland city there are so so many single drivers driving around these massive gas guzzling status symbol 4x4's.
Every 2nd real estate agent seems to have one for a start.

I know the govt looked at making exemptions but formulating complicated compliance rules, ruled it out.
I'm not unsympathetic to farmers but change needs to happen & generally speaking an extra tax deductible $4,300 on a brand new $65,000 Ranger or $4,600 on a $75,000 Wildcat is not going to mean the end of farming & until Ford & Toyota add Hybrid Utes to their fleets, there will still be plenty of second hand ones.

The govt is also pushing emissions charges (in as many cases as possible) back as far up the chain as possible, so although those costs are eventually passed down the chain to the user, it incentivises the manufacturer or producer to lower carbon emissions. To my mind that's good policy.

Bjauck
17-07-2021, 07:50 PM
Imo think its good policy to incentivise the good and penalise the bad, i.e. good to switch to EV's & Hybrids with rebates and penalise the bad - high emission vehicles with a tax if you need to drive change (which we urgently do).
Just driving around Auckland city there are so so many single drivers driving around these massive gas guzzling status symbol 4x4's.
Every 2nd real estate agent seems to have one for a start.
... So true and I do see your point. However I think it best to reduce the total car fleet, whether EV or not. In South Auckland there are lots of housing estates being built dependent on cars. If only they were built around a tram/train network and close to commercial centres where the residents could work without having to commute across the city.

As it is we are still encouraging private car use and demanding new multi-lame roads to cater for their use.

Balance
18-07-2021, 10:03 AM
So much angst about SUVs & 4WD expressed without a fundamental assessment & understanding of why they are so popular & are the vehicles of choice for most families.

Which part of recreational vehicle, suited for the great outdoors, long distance driving, practical for sports & commerce and yes, safety do the complainants of them not understand?

Pathetic.

BlackPeter
18-07-2021, 10:24 AM
So much angst about SUVs & 4WD expressed without a fundamental assessment & understanding of why they are so popular & are the vehicles of choice for most families.

Which part of recreational vehicle, suited for the great outdoors, long distance driving, practical for sports & commerce and yes, safety do the complainants of them not understand?

Pathetic.

Sigh - looking at your latest posts on this thread it feels you are inspired by kindergarten bullies - or is it agent orange?

Which part of Global warming do you not understand? ... It is not just NZ seeing more and more climate disasters in the meantime it feels on a weekly / monthly basis. The tidy up of Canterbury is still in full swing (with farmers expecting a huge handout from the taxpayer - 200 year event you see), the tornado in Auckland is still in fresh memory and yesterday it was the Westcoast and Marlborough suffering a hundred year deluge. Who knows whose term it is next week?

North America (incl Canada) suffering under a heat wave as bad they never had before and in middle Europe the flooding is worse than ever before in historic times.

... and you are howling for the poor farmers and still worse for the poor recreational 4WD users - of course they need to have their fun as cheap as possible. The freedom to destroy our habitat is clearly something worthwhile howling for. Who cares about the globe and keeping the earth habitable? - Clearly not you.

Panda-NZ-
18-07-2021, 10:42 AM
NZ locals have been paying more for food in the supermarket than any other country, that's the subsidy.

10km distance travelled is more expensive than 4,000km.

Zaphod
18-07-2021, 11:06 AM
Maybe the Kiwi car dealers will get a cut of that price increase too. Farmers provide a big chunk of NZ exports so to the extent that their farm vehicles cannot be replaced by EVs, their costs have increased. So the vehicles used in productive activities have been made more expensive whereas the wealthier surburbanites and commuters have access to cheaper EVs & hybrids.

So will the result be more congested surburban roads and less profitable exports? If anything I think the new tax on Utes and 4wds (amongst others) should have been put towards better public transport/infrastructure not in making some other cars cheaper.

I have no doubt that dealers are also taking a cut. One model we were looking at that was already landed in NZ prior to the subsidy being announced, went up by a similar amount to the ones at auction in Japan. Some of this price rise will be driven by immense world-wide demand for the vehicles as well as components of which many are now in short supply.

The government have indicated that they will release a public transport package, but this should have been done prior to or at least simultaneously with the EV subsidy package. Promoting the package as a “clean car subsidy” has helped reinforce the perception that by purchasing an EV we are now driving a completely environmentally friendly vehicle and do not need to compromise our lifestyle in any way, yet these vehicles still do cause pollution and consume valuable resources.

Two colleagues of mine no longer take public transport to work, instead driving their second-hand EV’s to ensure maximum enjoyment of gridlock. Their response to my queries as to why they have chosen this is that EV’s are completely environmentally friendly, and that public transport is dangerous given the signals from government that even in a covid-free environment masks must be worn when travelling on public transport.

The whole package feels like just another knee-jerk reaction lacking a fully fleshed out long-term strategy.

fungus pudding
18-07-2021, 11:11 AM
NZ locals have been paying more for food in the supermarket than any other country, that's the subsidy.


When did you last fill your grocery trolley in Iceland? Switzerland?

fungus pudding
18-07-2021, 11:11 AM
NZ locals have been paying more for food in the supermarket than any other country, that's the subsidy.


repeated
so deleted.
I try to rhyme
all the time.

dobby41
18-07-2021, 01:20 PM
So much angst about SUVs & 4WD expressed without a fundamental assessment & understanding of why they are so popular & are the vehicles of choice for most families.

Which part of recreational vehicle, suited for the great outdoors, long distance driving, practical for sports & commerce and yes, safety do the complainants of them not understand?

Pathetic.
Got any stats on how many of them go into the great outdoors (aside from the supermarket carpark)?

fungus pudding
18-07-2021, 01:57 PM
Got any stats on how many of them go into the great outdoors (aside from the supermarket carpark)?

A large percentage of what are called SUV's are just 2 wheel drive vehicles which are higher riding. Nothing to do with the great outdoors. It's all about getting in or out once your knees/hips and spouse hit the age where their bits don't work. Manufacturers know only too well who the new car buyers are and the vast majoriy of pvt. buyers are well into the older catergory.
Naturally these things are well represented in the 2cnd hand market now. Swat up the specs on most popular 'SUVs' and they're not much different from small to medium saloon cars of a year or two ago.

dobby41
18-07-2021, 02:36 PM
A large percentage of what are called SUV's are just 2 wheel drive vehicles which are higher riding. Nothing to do with the great outdoors. It's all about getting in or out once your knees/hips and spouse hit the age where their bits don't work. Manufacturers know only too well who the new car buyers are and the vast majoriy of pvt. buyers are well into the older catergory.
Naturally these things are well represented in the 2cnd hand market now. Swat up the specs on most popular 'SUVs' and they're not much different from small to medium saloon cars of a year or two ago.
True re the SUVs - also a lot are quite economical.
Of course, though much-maligned, they aren't going to get any extra fee either.
A Mitsubishi Outlander has no fee (or rebate).

A lot of people are looking at the headlines rather than the facts.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/clean-car-calculator-how-much-of-an-ev-feebate-youll-receive-how-much-youll-pay-for-petrol-vehicles/LQ55OI6SEYG6MX722RSL3TJWJI/

Bjauck
18-07-2021, 05:47 PM
Will inheritance taxes/estate duties be levied once again? Most OECD nations have one in some form…or other capital taxes. Maybe Labour will contemplate either an inheritance tax or CGT. As many wealthy families have their assets in family trusts, I wonder how any inheritance tax would account for them.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/125620210/why-labour-may-propose-an-inheritance-tax

fungus pudding
18-07-2021, 07:02 PM
Will inheritance taxes/estate duties be levied once again? Most OECD nations have one in some form…or other capital taxes. Maybe Labour will contemplate either an inheritance tax or CGT. As many wealthy families have their assets in family trusts, I wonder how any inheritance tax would account for them.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/125620210/why-labour-may-propose-an-inheritance-tax
Nothing like death duties and gift duties to get the creative part of the brain into overdrive.

iceman
18-07-2021, 08:20 PM
Another police officer brutally attacked today. This is becoming a common occurrence and the PM & other Ministers stay quiet. And what about their MP that was the President of the police officer’s union before he became a MP ? Why is that gutless person not speaking up for his former colleagues? This is the result of the Government’s soft approach to crime & gangs. Not only are they stuffing the country economically long term, now it’s becoming lawless as well with our police officers attacked on nearly daily basis without the equipment to defend themselves. Wake up Jacinda

Bjauck
18-07-2021, 11:11 PM
Another police officer brutally attacked today. This is becoming a common occurrence and the PM & other Ministers stay quiet. And what about their MP that was the President of the police officer’s union before he became a MP ? Why is that gutless person not speaking up for his former colleagues? This is the result of the Government’s soft approach to crime & gangs. Not only are they stuffing the country economically long term, now it’s becoming lawless as well with our police officers attacked on nearly daily basis without the equipment to defend themselves. Wake up Jacinda

it is becoming one of the leading issues. The number of gang members is estimated to have increased by 50% since Ardern became PM. We also need to address the underlying causes behind the appeal of criminal gangs to increasing numbers of young people.

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2105/S00150/more-than-8000-gang-members-in-new-zealand.htm

Bjauck
18-07-2021, 11:13 PM
de-doppelgangered

BlackPeter
19-07-2021, 08:22 AM
Doppelgänger - deleted

BlackPeter
19-07-2021, 08:25 AM
it is becoming one of the leading issues. The number of gang members is estimated to have increased by 50% since Ardern became PM. We also need to address the underlying causes behind the appeal of criminal gangs to increasing numbers of young people.

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2105/S00150/more-than-8000-gang-members-in-new-zealand.htm

Clearly - more gang members in the community is not good. Wondering however, how many of them have been recruited due to Labours policies and how many due to the Australian policies to send their criminals to NZ (putting the trash out ...)? So - maybe its just the policies of a foreign populist right wing government increasing the number of crooks in NZ?

The other data point in this context ... despite an increase in gang members is the overall crime rate in NZ pretty static and in some areas even dropping.

https://theconversation.com/despite-claims-nzs-policing-is-too-woke-crime-rates-are-largely-static-and-even-declining-156103

You sort of wonder how much of the excitement is due to dirty politicking and the "lock em up" - club?

Bjauck
19-07-2021, 09:07 AM
...You sort of wonder how much of the excitement is due to dirty politicking and the "lock em up" - club? The 501's who often learned their nefarious ways in OZ and were then ejected would be adding to the problem.

It may depend where you live and the penetration of the particular gangs in that area, but if the public is comfortable that gang membership is actually not associated with criminal activity and level, or maybe even cause a drop in (reported) criminal activity, then maybe we should leave them alone. It may also avoid examining the uncomfortable questions as to whether deprivation or social inequalities are some of the drivers behind gang membership increases.

fungus pudding
19-07-2021, 09:10 AM
Another police officer brutally attacked today. This is becoming a common occurrence and the PM & other Ministers stay quiet. And what about their MP that was the President of the police officer’s union before he became a MP ? Why is that gutless person not speaking up for his former colleagues?

Because he's useless. Beats me why anyone voted for him.

peetter
19-07-2021, 09:52 AM
The 501's who often learned their nefarious ways in OZ and were then ejected would be adding to the problem.

It may depend where you live and the penetration of the particular gangs in that area, but if the public is comfortable that gang membership is actually not associated with criminal activity and level, or maybe even cause a drop in (reported) criminal activity, then maybe we should leave them alone. It may also avoid examining the uncomfortable questions as to whether deprivation or social inequalities are some of the drivers behind gang membership increases.

That public is comfortable there's no criminal activity, doesn't at all mean ther is no criminal activity. That kind of thinking is exxactly what leads to more crime. There's a lot of public covering the crimes, then there's a huge part completely oblivious to it.

I am still extremely surprised criminal organizations work publicly in NZ. That's something unheard of where I come from and I find it a failure of government.

dobby41
19-07-2021, 10:48 AM
it is becoming one of the leading issues. The number of gang members is estimated to have increased by 50% since Ardern became PM. We also need to address the underlying causes behind the appeal of criminal gangs to increasing numbers of young people.

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2105/S00150/more-than-8000-gang-members-in-new-zealand.htm

An interesting one from National.
If you are a gang member and the police know you'll be put on the list.
If you leave the gang you don't get taken off the list.
The list is of past and present gang members so saying it is going up is a poor use of the data.
National have been told this numerous times in the house but they want to use the data for their purpose.

dobby41
19-07-2021, 10:50 AM
Another police officer brutally attacked today. This is becoming a common occurrence and the PM & other Ministers stay quiet. And what about their MP that was the President of the police officer’s union before he became a MP ? Why is that gutless person not speaking up for his former colleagues? This is the result of the Government’s soft approach to crime & gangs. Not only are they stuffing the country economically long term, now it’s becoming lawless as well with our police officers attacked on nearly daily basis without the equipment to defend themselves. Wake up Jacinda

I don't know the case you refer to but have all the recent attacks been from gangs?
Certainly some recent ones haven't been but people like to join the 2 for their purposes.

By the way - I don't support gangs in any way, they are a scourge on society.
But saying that everything that happens is because of gangs is false.

fungus pudding
19-07-2021, 10:59 AM
I am still extremely surprised criminal organizations work publicly in NZ. That's something unheard of where I come from and I find it a failure of government.

Criminal organizations do not 'work publicly' in NZ. They are subject to the same laws as you and me, and if caught breaking the law, Mr. Plod will sort them out.

peetter
19-07-2021, 11:08 AM
Criminal organizations do not 'work publicly' in NZ. They are subject to the same laws as you and me, and if caught breaking the law, Mr. Plod will sort them out.

I find this statement funny couple weeks after gang blocked whatever streets they wanted in Auckland and Police only blocked law abiding citizens from the areas for their safety.

BlackPeter
19-07-2021, 11:21 AM
I find this statement funny couple weeks after gang blocked whatever streets they wanted in Auckland and Police only blocked law abiding citizens from the areas for their safety.

I find your statement funny as well, to avoid using a Greek word starting with "hypo" and ending with "critical". My understanding is that there was a huge funeral in Auckland and some roads have been clogged up due to many people lawfully attending this funeral. Police regulated the traffic, as they do in such circumstances.

Public was as well inconvenienced last Friday when a huge bunch of brainless farmers clogged up roads in many of our towns to howl for their perceived right to destroy our environment and damage the climate as cheap as possible. Did you complain about that as well?

fungus pudding
19-07-2021, 11:34 AM
I find this statement funny couple weeks after gang blocked whatever streets they wanted in Auckland and Police only blocked law abiding citizens from the areas for their safety.
It's hardly turning their backs on crime. As BP points out a whole bunch of tractor drivers invaded the streets last weekend driving unregistered and unwarranted vehicles outside their legally permitted areas, and were accompanied by a police escort.
That's police using their discretion and common sense. Crowd control becomes the over-riding factor.

Bjauck
19-07-2021, 12:01 PM
Double posted...

Bjauck
19-07-2021, 12:02 PM
I find this statement funny couple weeks after gang blocked whatever streets they wanted in Auckland and Police only blocked law abiding citizens from the areas for their safety. At that time I encountered a group of motorcycle riders many without helmets and doing wheelies on an Auckland motorway. I was with a couple of kids and had veer to the side of the motorway as the bikies weaved in and out of the lanes. Just about all vehicles had to park up on the hard shoulder whilst this group took over the highway. I do not not know if they had any gang affiliations. Several times last Summer I was at South Auckland Parks (with children) when they were invaded by groups of helmetless motorbike riders who drove through the public when they were on sports fields. These types of events have definitely become more common in my experience.

fungus pudding
19-07-2021, 12:06 PM
At that time I encountered a group of motorcycle riders many without helmets and doing wheelies on an Auckland motorway. I was with a couple of kids and had veer to the side of the motorway as the bikies weaved in and out of the lanes. Just about all vehicles had to park up on the hard shoulder whilst this group took over the highway. I do not not know if they had any gang affiliations. Several times last Summer I was at South Auckland Parks (with children) when they were invaded by groups of helmetless motorbike riders who drove through the public when they were on sports fields. These type f events have definitely become more common in my experience.

Obviously a clear case of 'a criminal organisation working publicly'.

peetter
19-07-2021, 12:40 PM
It's hardly turning their backs on crime. As BP points out a whole bunch of tractor drivers invaded the streets last weekend driving unregistered and unwarranted vehicles outside their legally permitted areas, and were accompanied by a police escort.
That's police using their discretion and common sense. Crowd control becomes the over-riding factor.

It's a case of public criminal organization laughing into faces of every law abiding citizen of NZ, showing they can do whatever they want because they don't care about law and regulations.

Meanwhile farmers protesting is a democratic protest of law following citizens who don't like new proposed regulations and want to be heard. However they will follow them even if they don't like the regulations.

If you don't see the difference than there's not much reason to talk to you really.


I find your statement funny as well, to avoid using a Greek word starting with "hypo" and ending with "critical". My understanding is that there was a huge funeral in Auckland and some roads have been clogged up due to many people lawfully attending this funeral. Police regulated the traffic, as they do in such circumstances.



Well this is a nice marketing way of spinning it :)

ynot
19-07-2021, 01:48 PM
Can't argue with "nice" !

Blue Skies
19-07-2021, 04:52 PM
Another police officer brutally attacked today. This is becoming a common occurrence and the PM & other Ministers stay quiet. And what about their MP that was the President of the police officer’s union before he became a MP ? Why is that gutless person not speaking up for his former colleagues? This is the result of the Government’s soft approach to crime & gangs. Not only are they stuffing the country economically long term, now it’s becoming lawless as well with our police officers attacked on nearly daily basis without the equipment to defend themselves. Wake up Jacinda



Occasionally see this narrative of the NZ economy having been stuffed by Labour carelessly chucked around by a few on here.

From Asia Pacific to ANZ & many expert economists in between, all say by any measure the NZ economy is doing very well esp compared to other countries.

Obviously there are valid areas of criticism of the govt but their handling of the economy as a whole is an area the informed would give them credit for.

NZ is one of the first countries in the world to be dropping fiscal stimulus due to the strength of the rebound & it is Covid caused supply restraints which will slow things down.

https://www.anz.co.nz/content/dam/anzconz/documents/economics-and-market-research/2021/ANZ-QEO-20210601.pdf


Re the police, sounds like the equipment you think they need to defend themselves are carry guns? Any govt is going to have a hard time pushing that since majority of the country don't want this.

Zaphod
19-07-2021, 08:04 PM
The owner of the company next door to us bought a brand new top of the line model (>$200k) Range Rover last year claiming he had big adventures planned for it. I asked him the other day if he'd taken it off-road yet because I had my doubts he ever would; "Nah, it's too expensive to fix if I drive it off road".

While we both had a good laugh, it's this situation that probably doesn't help the image that SUV's have.

SBQ
19-07-2021, 10:09 PM
The owner of the company next door to us bought a brand new top of the line model (>$200k) Range Rover last year claiming he had big adventures planned for it. I asked him the other day if he'd taken it off-road yet because I had my doubts he ever would; "Nah, it's too expensive to fix if I drive it off road".

While we both had a good laugh, it's this situation that probably doesn't help the image that SUV's have.


What surprises me is the size of the SUVs that were based on American size highways and roads. Quite frankly NZ residential roads are too narrow for these massive SUVs. We kinda got it backwards where we put the vehicle size 1st before the road size.

iceman
21-07-2021, 06:13 AM
Multiple deleted

iceman
21-07-2021, 06:19 AM
Deleted multiple

iceman
21-07-2021, 06:26 AM
Multiple deleted

iceman
21-07-2021, 06:33 AM
Multiple deleted

iceman
21-07-2021, 06:35 AM
I don't know the case you refer to but have all the recent attacks been from gangs?
Certainly some recent ones haven't been but people like to join the 2 for their purposes.

By the way - I don't support gangs in any way, they are a scourge on society.
But saying that everything that happens is because of gangs is false.

Nowhere in my post did I say "all that happens is because of gangs". They are your words. But gangs are criminal organisations. We have recently been getting news from a trial of a gang affiliate that murdered a police officer and tried to kill another one by shooting him 4 times as he tried to crawl away. He fired 14 shots in total in a calm cold blooded manner according to witnesses.
TV footage has shown that human scum roll his eyes, shake his head and give all sorts of facial expressions as the man he shot was as in the witness box recalling what had happened. He clearly shows no remorse for having killed a police officer.

Last week we had 2 instances of cops being shot (and a police car stolen) at and one of a cop being brutally attacked while another cop helplessly watched (I don't understand why he wasn't tasered). This is becoming a common occurrence. If people are pulling out guns on Police at traffic stops, I think it is fairly safe to say they are related to gangs or some form of criminal activity. Why else would they have a gun in their car ?
What happened to the gun buyback that was supposed to make us all feel safe by taking guns of hunters while the gangs hold onto theirs ?

In April we had what police called "escalation of gang tensions" when they started shooting at each other at Sofitel Hotel in Auckland, a 5* hotel downtown. A few days earlier one of the gangs involved at Sofitel had their pad peppered with 30 bullets.

Criminal gangs are showing increased power, no doubt helped by the 501 arrivals in this country. But we can not just sit idly by and let them take over and shoot at our Police Officers. That is lawlessness.

Ramming of police cars is increasing at a scary rate with 573 police cars rammed between 2017-2020, most of them in the last 2 years. It has become the "go-to method for get away drivers" according to police https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/125699397/police-cars-rammed-once-a-week-as-it-becomes-the-goto-getaway-move

To somehow compare and justify a takeover of roads and motorways in Auckland for a gang members funeral, with the once in 20 year protest by farmers (brainless farmers as a poster so eloquently called them) as some seem to want to do here, it is high time to equip our Police to deal with this changed and much more dangerous environment they live in. minimum 2 cops in all cars, accept more frequent use of tasers and guns (in locked safes) in Police cars.

From Stuff today: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125813223/national-party-calls-on-police-to-reinstate-armed-response-teams

iceman
21-07-2021, 06:35 AM
Double post deleted

fungus pudding
21-07-2021, 08:32 AM
Nowhere in my post did I say "all that happens is because of gangs". They are your words. But gangs are criminal organisations.

That is an absurd blanket generlisation. A small % might be, but gangs of all sorts exist.

BlackPeter
21-07-2021, 09:15 AM
Nowhere in my post did I say "all that happens is because of gangs". They are your words. But gangs are criminal organisations. We have recently been getting news from a trial of a gang affiliate that murdered a police officer and tried to kill another one by shooting him 4 times as he tried to crawl away. He fired 14 shots in total in a calm cold blooded manner according to witnesses.
TV footage has shown that human scum roll his eyes, shake his head and give all sorts of facial expressions as the man he shot was as in the witness box recalling what had happened. He clearly shows no remorse for having killed a police officer.

Last week we had 2 instances of cops being shot (and a police car stolen) at and one of a cop being brutally attacked while another cop helplessly watched (I don't understand why he wasn't tasered). This is becoming a common occurrence. If people are pulling out guns on Police at traffic stops, I think it is fairly safe to say they are related to gangs or some form of criminal activity. Why else would they have a gun in their car ?
What happened to the gun buyback that was supposed to make us all feel safe by taking guns of hunters while the gangs hold onto theirs ?

In April we had what police called "escalation of gang tensions" when they started shooting at each other at Sofitel Hotel in Auckland, a 5* hotel downtown. A few days earlier one of the gangs involved at Sofitel had their pad peppered with 30 bullets.

Criminal gangs are showing increased power, no doubt helped by the 501 arrivals in this country. But we can not just sit idly by and let them take over and shoot at our Police Officers. That is lawlessness.

Ramming of police cars is increasing at a scary rate with 573 police cars rammed between 2017-2020, most of them in the last 2 years. It has become the "go-to method for get away drivers" according to police https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/125699397/police-cars-rammed-once-a-week-as-it-becomes-the-goto-getaway-move

To somehow compare and justify a takeover of roads and motorways in Auckland for a gang members funeral, with the once in 20 year protest by farmers (brainless farmers as a poster so eloquently called them) as some seem to want to do here, it is high time to equip our Police to deal with this changed and much more dangerous environment they live in. minimum 2 cops in all cars, accept more frequent use of tasers and guns (in locked safes) in Police cars.

From Stuff today: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125813223/national-party-calls-on-police-to-reinstate-armed-response-teams

Mmh - I think we need to take a bit of emotion out of this discussion. Very easy to end up with highly undesirable consequences.

So, lets see - of course, our police needs to be as safe as possible. I don't think however that we make them safer by demonising parts of society and arming police up to the hilt. The US is a great example to show us what happens when you do that - more criminality coming from the demonised groups and police there is attracting as well a bunch of crooks who enjoy to chase, suppress, hunt and kill innocent people. US attracted too many murderers to wear a police uniform.

Not something we should try to replicate and frankly - not a society I would like to live in.

I think we need as well to look at some other values. It is not just police who should be safe, but as well the general public - and on top of everybody being safe from criminals we need to protect some other freedoms as well. Too many countries on this globe demonstrate on a daily basis how unpleasant it is to live in a police state.

I think so far we get this quite right as society, but is is not like police being only angels and not having already enough powers. I guess - Police officers in New Zealand did rape women (e.g. Louisa Niklas, and I am sure she was not alone), did plant evidence to wrongfully convict innocent people (e.g. Baines) and doing plenty of other mischief as well. They are humans with warts and all and they need to be controlled and managed like anybody else.

If police is concerned about gangs and firearms than I don't see a reason whey they can't use the existing legislation to search (obviously with a warrant) gang houses and confiscate illegal weapons. If police chooses not to do that, than they don't do their job. Maybe this is the problem - we just have the wrong people running our police force?

Quite stupid to say that only gangs would have firearms in their car. Was the Australian murderer whom we allowed two years ago to kill 51 people in Christchurch a gang member? No, he was not. Maybe you need to adjust your blinkers.

We do have a lot of criminals in New Zealand. Some might be (and I am sure are) operating in gangs. Some of them are political extremists. Some of them are just your normal run of the mill thief, wife beater, or brainde3ad driver, some wear white collars and steal from share holders, some are called "Sir" or "knight" - and some of the criminals wear uniforms or sit in our parliament.

We better make sure that we don't ignore all the other crooks by demonising just one group - shouldn't we?

iceman
22-07-2021, 06:51 AM
Even more stupid BlackPeter to deliberately misquote posters you are criticising. I said people who carry guns in their cars to pull on cops are likely to have affiliation to “gangs or some form of criminal activity”.

Balance
22-07-2021, 07:34 AM
Even more stupid BlackPeter to deliberately misquote posters you are criticising. I said people who carry guns in their cars to pull on cops are likely to have affiliation to “gangs or some form of criminal activity”.

That is his modus operandi - misquoting to try & shift the debate towards his advantage. Why I don’t bother anymore.

Balance
22-07-2021, 07:39 AM
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/07/covid-19-response-minister-chris-hipkins-defends-ordering-first-batch-of-pfizer-vaccines-on-january-29.html

From front of the queue to last in the queue but Cindy & her team of incompetents would have NZers believe otherwise by resetting timelines and expectations.

This vaccine rollout is but another Kiwibuild BS.

And thanks to the multitude of PR staff now employed and deployed by this incompetent government (at taxpayers’ cost to do their immoral spin PR work), there are many who believe the spin.

Too bad for NZ future when the truth finally hits. And Cindy will be at the UN spreading her poison worldwide.

SBQ
22-07-2021, 10:54 AM
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/07/covid-19-response-minister-chris-hipkins-defends-ordering-first-batch-of-pfizer-vaccines-on-january-29.html

From front of the queue to last in the queue but Cindy & her team of incompetents would have NZers believe otherwise by resetting timelines and expectations.

This vaccine rollout is but another Kiwibuild BS.

And thanks to the multitude of PR staff now employed and deployed by this incompetent government (at taxpayers’ cost to do their immoral spin PR work), there are many who believe the spin.

Too bad for NZ future when the truth finally hits. And Cindy will be at the UN spreading her poison worldwide.

I hear your complaints. But i'm uncertain why the urgency for NZ to be vaccinated in a manner like we see happening in other OECD nations. Meanwhile Covid is ravaging throughout the US, Vietnam, Indonesia, & countless of others - should we be critical of the situation when when NZ's handling of Covid has been an 'elimination strategy'?

More worse issues should be address in NZ - such as our housing problem. Keep the borders close, educate the people, increase trades (no we don't need to import low wage workers to work on farms and at fish processing plants). Time for Jacinda to bring out taxes on the those that own too many houses.

BlackPeter
22-07-2021, 11:28 AM
Even more stupid BlackPeter to deliberately misquote posters you are criticising. I said people who carry guns in their cars to pull on cops are likely to have affiliation to “gangs or some form of criminal activity”.

You said:


If people are pulling out guns on Police at traffic stops, I think it is fairly safe to say they are related to gangs or some form of criminal activity. Why else would they have a gun in their car ?

... and yes - I admit that I read your statement as ...


If people are pulling out guns on Police at traffic stops, I think it is fairly safe to say they are related to gangs

... overseeing on the way that your with an "or" added extension makes the first sentence absolutely superfluous and unnecessary.



If people are pulling out guns on Police at traffic stops, I think it is fairly safe to say they are related to gangs or some form of criminal activity.


Its like saying "it is fairly safe to say that any criminal activity is caused by the XYZ club ... or by somebody else."

You are absolutely right - your sentence is in its entirety quite meaningless - with the second part clearly devaluing the statement you made in the first part. I should not have quoted and reacted to your first part ... and I did take by mistake your quote out of context.

I do withdraw and apologize.

BlackPeter
22-07-2021, 11:35 AM
That is his modus operandi - misquoting to try & shift the debate towards his advantage. Why I don’t bother anymore.

Cheers - I would not have expected any different from you.
Up on ignore you go ...

peetter
22-07-2021, 02:15 PM
Cheers - I would not have expected any different from you.
Up on ignore you go ...

I wonder why you feel a need to announce putting somebody on ignore list. It only makes Balances point that much stronger.

iceman
22-07-2021, 06:34 PM
OMG (response to post 1877)

Joshuatree
22-07-2021, 07:27 PM
Hey BP imagine Balance at the traffic lights.Would he draw his gun on a green light, on a orange light (even if he could stop drawing safely:). He has a history of shooting from the lip(extremely reactive, not responsive) so i guess his traffic lights would actually be just two , black or white. Ignoring him is like putting out an ego with compliments.;)

Bjauck
22-07-2021, 07:30 PM
Wrong link

Logen Ninefingers
23-07-2021, 10:13 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/125834890/labour-list-mp-tamati-coffey-hits-back-at-81m-rotorua-motel-purchase-critics

Labour List MP and Rotorua resident Tamati Coffey has hit back at critics of the Government’s $8.1m purchase of a motel in the city, arguing the acquisition is “part of a wider puzzle”.

Kāinga Ora announced the purchase on Wednesday saying the 30-unit property would provide over 80 people with temporary housing.

The agency said the 0.66ha site would also offer longer term redevelopment potential for “new warm, dry and healthy public housing in Rotorua”.

------

He did concede, however, that a September 2020 Quotable Value capital value of $1.75m and land value of $1,130,000 for the site meant the Government could have overpaid for the motel.

dobby41
23-07-2021, 10:22 AM
He did concede, however, that a September 2020 Quotable Value capital value of $1.75m and land value of $1,130,000 for the site meant the Government could have overpaid for the motel.[/I]

That's the 3rd valuation figure I have heard.

Logen Ninefingers
23-07-2021, 10:35 AM
When you see the billions and billions of dollars this government sprays around, it amazes me that you will still see to this day on-line comments raving along the lines of 'John Key spent $26 million on a flag referendum!!'.

That $26 million is the biggest and most weighty $26 million in the history of NZ, with that $26 million we could have paid off the national debt!!

Just know that if the national ever defaults & we are stoney broke, that $26 million spent on a 'flag referendum' will have been the root cause!!

Personally I feel that down in this isolated backwater a fair chunk of our population are barking mad. I heard a radio presenter carrying on about how a head of celery was $3.89 at his local shop. You can have houses in Mt Maunganui selling for $9.525 million, and yet people are shocked to see inflation starting to show up elsewhere in the price of goods and services. Yes, barking mad and also financially illiterate. We've been dumbed down to the point where people have no understanding of cause & effect when it comes to the money supply and inflation.

Logen Ninefingers
23-07-2021, 10:37 AM
That's the 3rd valuation figure I have heard.

Cool.

jonu
23-07-2021, 10:42 AM
That's the 3rd valuation figure I have heard.

I bet they are all a good deal less than 8.1 million.

This just highlights Ardern's answer to everything. Just throw money at it. Our money.

As for Tamati Coffey, he would do well to keep a low profile and actually achieve something. The only Labour MP to lose his seat in a massive swing for the party. Maybe there is a weather presenter/propaganda role available in one of the bribed media outlets.

BlackPeter
23-07-2021, 10:55 AM
When you see the billions and billions of dollars this government sprays around, it amazes me that you will still see to this day on-line comments raving along the lines of 'John Key spent $26 million on a flag referendum!!'.

That $26 million is the biggest and most weighty $26 million in the history of NZ, with that $26 million we could have paid off the national debt!!

Just know that if the national ever defaults & we are stoney broke, that $26 million spent on a 'flag referendum' will have been the root cause!!

Personally I feel that down in this isolated backwater a fair chunk of our population are barking mad. I heard a radio presenter carrying on about how a head of celery was $3.89 at his local shop. You can have houses in Mt Maunganui selling for $9.525 million, and yet people are shocked to see inflation starting to show up elsewhere in the price of goods and services. Yes, barking mad and also financially illiterate. We've been dumbed down to the point where people have no understanding of cause & effect when it comes to the money supply and inflation.

Interesting article in the herald (paywalled):


Labour is now seen as more capable than National on every one of the top 20 issues concerning New Zealanders.

That's the stark finding for Judith Collins' Opposition in the latest New Zealand Issues Monitor from Ipsos, the world's third-largest market research agency, which works in 90 markets and employs over 18,000 people.

Worse, the data suggests this has at least as much to do with National's performance as with Labour's.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/matthew-hooton-labour-crushing-national-on-top-20-issues/LE2NUETW3KFZR5G2DPGWHDHUFU/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=nzh_email&utm_campaign=Premium_Business_Briefing_Newsletter&uuid=07a57e44f5f54fc98c5c276a09e442f5

It looks like (according to an IPSOS survey) that the general public absolutely agrees with you (and me) that the current governments performance is mediocre at best. Apart from a small number of highlights there is just a long list of broken promises and failures.

The problems is ... the public feels as well despite Labours pathetic performance that Labour is in ALL major topics more competent than National - and frankly speaking - I think the public is right right.

A C rated mediocre student is still better than a student constantly failing their exams.

What National needs to do is stop whining, regrow their liberal wing and bin the hardliners. As long as Collins tries to please Nationals hard right backward looking rednecks, National will never grow back to become a broad church which can command a majority to run the country.

Easy as that - select better people (no sexters, no bullies, no conspiracy nutters - just decent leadership material), bin (or at least silence) the hard right and National can be back in the game.

Anything else means just another easy game for Labour come next election. There is no need for Labour to up their performance as long as National is shooting only own goals.

Logen Ninefingers
23-07-2021, 03:33 PM
Interesting article in the herald (paywalled):



https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/matthew-hooton-labour-crushing-national-on-top-20-issues/LE2NUETW3KFZR5G2DPGWHDHUFU/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=nzh_email&utm_campaign=Premium_Business_Briefing_Newsletter&uuid=07a57e44f5f54fc98c5c276a09e442f5

It looks like (according to an IPSOS survey) that the general public absolutely agrees with you (and me) that the current governments performance is mediocre at best. Apart from a small number of highlights there is just a long list of broken promises and failures.

The problems is ... the public feels as well despite Labours pathetic performance that Labour is in ALL major topics more competent than National - and frankly speaking - I think the public is right right.

A C rated mediocre student is still better than a student constantly failing their exams.

What National needs to do is stop whining, regrow their liberal wing and bin the hardliners. As long as Collins tries to please Nationals hard right backward looking rednecks, National will never grow back to become a broad church which can command a majority to run the country.

Easy as that - select better people (no sexters, no bullies, no conspiracy nutters - just decent leadership material), bin (or at least silence) the hard right and National can be back in the game.

Anything else means just another easy game for Labour come next election. There is no need for Labour to up their performance as long as National is shooting only own goals.

As long as Collins tries to please Nationals hard right backward looking rednecks

Hard right rednecks? This is the country where a moderate bloke like Don Brash is portrayed by our media as a racist to the right of Genghis Khan and Adolph H. The media are a disgraceful bunch who shape public opinion at every turn.

The opposition parties need to combat an agenda of 'separatism by stealth' that this Labour government is clearly implementing. It is the courageous and moral thing to do and should be applauded not condemned.

Joshuatree
23-07-2021, 04:18 PM
Its National who are trying to be divisive.A tired redundant hangover from the self entitled past era. This Govt are doing the opposite, having the discussions, bringing us up to speed with change and being responsible and enacting on it. Some feel threatened, they want to hold on to the unfair playing field that kept them and their false entitled. Change is a natural evolving progress, nothing to fear except fairness and inclusiveness. Unless you dont want to move with the times. Gotta keep that grey matter pliable or stay rigid and start losing some brain cells. Keep up.

jonu
23-07-2021, 04:35 PM
Its National who are trying to be divisive.A tired redundant hangover from the self entitled past era. This Govt are doing the opposite, having the discussions, bringing us up to speed with change and being responsible and enacting on it. Some feel threatened, they want to hold on to the unfair playing field that kept them and their false entitled. Change is a natural evolving progress, nothing to fear except fairness and inclusiveness. Unless you dont want to move with the times. Gotta keep that grey matter pliable or stay rigid and start losing some brain cells. Keep up.

Yeah...let's keep up to speed by money laundering the Mongrel Mob's proceeds of crime for them. All aboard JT? You can bark and sieg heil as well if you like. You'll fit right in!

dobby41
23-07-2021, 04:39 PM
Yeah...let's keep up to speed by money laundering the Mongrel Mob's proceeds of crime for them. All aboard JT? You can bark and sieg heil as well if you like. You'll fit right in!

You are singing from the National handbook - twist what happens any which way.
It isn't working for them - people have wised up. (Remember the Iwi-Kiwi billboards of the past?)

BlackPeter
23-07-2021, 04:41 PM
As long as Collins tries to please Nationals hard right backward looking rednecks

Hard right rednecks? This is the country where a moderate bloke like Don Brash is portrayed by our media as a racist to the right of Genghis Khan and Adolph H. The media are a disgraceful bunch who shape public opinion at every turn.

The opposition parties need to combat an agenda of 'separatism by stealth' that this Labour government is clearly implementing. It is the courageous and moral thing to do and should be applauded not condemned.

LOL - Maybe you need to revisit your position in the political spectrum? If you disagree with the majority of the people (that's whom the media try to please) - than maybe it is not the majority who is leaving the centre?

Anyway - not many extremists around, who realise that this is what they are. I am sure that even Adolf, Joseph as well as chairman Mao always thought that they are very reasonable people without extremist views.

One indicator I found useful to decide whether people are still democrats or whether they crossed already the line to the dark side: if they start to bash the free press (like e.g. the orange gorilla who used to be POTUS), then you know that they crossed the line and moved too far away from the democratic centre.

Anybody who needs to bash the free press has something to hide.

jonu
23-07-2021, 04:44 PM
You are singing from the National handbook - twist what happens any which way.
It isn't working for them - people have wised up. (Remember the Iwi-Kiwi billboards of the past?)

Wised up or fed a state funded propaganda campaign to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars?
Anything incorrect in what I posted? Are you happy for proceeds of crime money to be laundered back to the arseholes who wreak havoc on our communities? Seig heiling, barking arseholes!

jonu
23-07-2021, 04:47 PM
LOL - Maybe you need to revisit your position in the political spectrum? If you disagree with the majority of the people (that's whom the media try to please) - than maybe it is not the majority who is leaving the centre?

Anyway - not many extremists around, who realise that this is what they are. I am sure that even Adolf, Joseph as well as chairman Mao always thought that they are very reasonable people without extremist views.

One indicator I found useful to decide whether people are still democrats or whether they crossed already the line to the dark side: if they start to bash the free press (like e.g. the orange gorilla who used to be POTUS), then you know that they crossed the line and moved too far away from the democratic centre.

Anybody who needs to bash the free press has something to hide.

Problem is we don't have a "Free Press". It has become a state funded propaganda machine to the tune of 2 x $50 million dollar bribes that had requirement to report on certain issues. "Free Press"?

BlackPeter
23-07-2021, 04:57 PM
Problem is we don't have a "Free Press". It has become a state funded propaganda machine to the tune of 2 x $50 million dollar bribes that had requirement to report on certain issues. "Free Press"?

Actually - I think that Radio NZ is doing a quite reasonable and balanced job. And yes, they are taxpayer funded.

Both the NZ Herald as well as stuff are private entities - and while they are both a bit "thin" resource wise, I don't see any systematic political bias. NZ Herald publishes a lot of articles written by Richard Prebble. Do you consider him as too left?

Ah - and I assume you realise that Matthew Hooton (another regular for the Herald) used to work for National. He too left as well?

Not really a view on the TV news. Sure, they are shallow and often trespass the line from news to entertainment (I think infotainment is the word) but a propaganda machine???

Again - if you find that most people including the (yes - free) press and senior National as well as Act Party members are standing left of you, than maybe you are not standing in the centre :):

dobby41
23-07-2021, 05:09 PM
Problem is we don't have a "Free Press". It has become a state funded propaganda machine to the tune of 2 x $50 million dollar bribes that had requirement to report on certain issues. "Free Press"?

Please provide proof that the press is state-funded to the point that they JUST do the Govt's bidding.
I am well aware of the funding that gave to keep them afloat but that is for projects, not general media.
There are a lot of articles negative to the govt (in mainstream media) - how do you reconcile that with doing the Govt's bidding?

jonu
23-07-2021, 05:09 PM
Actually - I think that Radio NZ is doing a quite reasonable and balanced job. And yes, they are taxpayer funded.

Both the NZ Herald as well as stuff are private entities - and while they are both a bit "thin" resource wise, I don't see any systematic political bias. NZ Herald publishes a lot of articles written by Richard Prebble. Do you consider him as too left?

Not really a view on the TV news. Sure, they are shallow and often trespass the line from news to entertainment (I think infotainment is the word) but a propaganda machine???

Again - if you find that most people including the (yes - free) press are standing left of you, than maybe you are not standing in the centre :):

And how hard are these private entities going to bite the hand that feeds them? Is it a coincidence that both Stuff and the Herald both now have specialised Maori Issues sections? Stuff are currently are running propaganda on both Covid and Climate Change as well. They regularly run "explainer" pieces which suit Ardern's position very well. Only now the Minister for Propaganda's name isn't Joseph Goebbels, it's Jacinda Ardern.

But everything is OK. Cindy is keeping you safe. She's spending your grandchildren's tax dollars, but you'll be safe and warm....cosy. Sleep well.

dobby41
23-07-2021, 05:18 PM
And how hard are these private entities going to bite the hand that feeds them? Is it a coincidence that both Stuff and the Herald both now have specialised Maori Issues sections? Stuff are currently are running propaganda on both Covid and Climate Change as well. They regularly run "explainer" pieces which suit Ardern's position very well. Only now the Minister for Propaganda's name isn't Joseph Goebbels, it's Jacinda Ardern.

But everything is OK. Cindy is keeping you safe. She's spending your grandchildren's tax dollars, but you'll be safe and warm....cosy. Sleep well.

I do sleep well knowing things aren't run like some other countries - our neighbor especially.

jonu
23-07-2021, 05:21 PM
Please provide proof that the press is state-funded to the point that they JUST do the Govt's bidding.
I am well aware of the funding that gave to keep them afloat but that is for projects, not general media.
There are a lot of articles negative to the govt (in mainstream media) - how do you reconcile that with doing the Govt's bidding?

Smell the coffee dobby41. Bribe money to prop them up in an economy that we are told is doing well. Funds for "special projects" like their new Maori Issues sections and Covid propaganda campaign (2 areas that suit Ardern very well), frees up funds for elsewhere.

What are you more comfortable with? A Press that is receiving unneeded government subsidy or an independent Press beholden only to its readers?

ynot
23-07-2021, 05:51 PM
And how hard are these private entities going to bite the hand that feeds them? Is it a coincidence that both Stuff and the Herald both now have specialised Maori Issues sections? Stuff are currently are running propaganda on both Covid and Climate Change as well. They regularly run "explainer" pieces which suit Ardern's position very well. Only now the Minister for Propaganda's name isn't Joseph Goebbels, it's Jacinda Ardern.

But everything is OK. Cindy is keeping you safe. She's spending your grandchildren's tax dollars, but you'll be safe and warm....cosy. Sleep well.

Agree with you 100% Jonu. Alas you are wasting good energy attempting to convert the Jacinda fan club on this site. News recently that she doubled her propaganda staff. Get the feeling some of them are frequenting this forum.

Balance
23-07-2021, 06:00 PM
Agree with you 100% Jonu. Alas you are wasting good energy attempting to convert the Jacinda fan club on this site. News recently that she doubled her propaganda staff. Get the feeling some of them are frequenting this forum.

The feeling is 100% correct. Taxpayers' paid assasins of the truth.

dobby41
23-07-2021, 06:01 PM
Smell the coffee dobby41. Bribe money to prop them up in an economy that we are told is doing well. Funds for "special projects" like their new Maori Issues sections and Covid propaganda campaign (2 areas that suit Ardern very well), frees up funds for elsewhere.

What are you more comfortable with? A Press that is receiving unneeded government subsidy or an independent Press beholden only to its readers?

Is the media still receiving money? I don't know the answer.
Many here keep harping on about the same things even if times have changed so I wonder what the truth is?

ynot
23-07-2021, 06:13 PM
The feeling is 100% correct. Taxpayers' paid assasins of the truth.

Not dissimilar with whats happening globally.
ie: BBC and Guardian in UK have been heavily funded by Bill Gates. The mind boggles as to what they write in his favour.
The days of undistorted media are history.

jonu
23-07-2021, 06:21 PM
Is the media still receiving money? I don't know the answer.
Many here keep harping on about the same things even if times have changed so I wonder what the truth is?

They received a second $50 million tranche recently. Why? The economy is meant to be trucking along. I figure it will take them a while to chew through it. The first $$50 million, well wouldn't you know, that was in election year. On top of the wage subsidy BTW.

You really do seem to have run out of excuses. You often say...oh, this is old news being rehashed. Doesn't the fact that it happened at all concern you?
Any citizens anywhere should be concerned if the government dishes out bribes to media in an election year. Bribes with hooks attached.

US media banged on about Russia's supposed influence on the US elections. I don't recall them ever claiming Putin shelled over $100 million in public do you? Putin just maybe more subtle than our Cindy. She does seem to have studied the Goebbels Propaganda method.

iceman
23-07-2021, 07:31 PM
And how hard are these private entities going to bite the hand that feeds them? Is it a coincidence that both Stuff and the Herald both now have specialised Maori Issues sections? Stuff are currently are running propaganda on both Covid and Climate Change as well. They regularly run "explainer" pieces which suit Ardern's position very well. Only now the Minister for Propaganda's name isn't Joseph Goebbels, it's Jacinda Ardern.

But everything is OK. Cindy is keeping you safe. She's spending your grandchildren's tax dollars, but you'll be safe and warm....cosy. Sleep well.

No it isn't. To get the funding last year they had to sign a contract stating their editorial policy adhered to the principles of the treaty of Waitangi. That probably explains why they now have maori sections in them, that are very racists, particularly on Stuff.

Stuff has recently received a NZ On Air grant of $310k on a "cultural competency course for Stuff journalists to fundamentally shift representation in the NZ media".

The Labour mouthpiece The Spinoff has been given $6,117,198, $2,400,000 of that in the last 12 months.

But lets just ignore it and continue believing we have free & fair media in NZ

westerly
23-07-2021, 08:01 PM
Problem is we don't have a "Free Press". It has become a state funded propaganda machine to the tune of 2 x $50 million dollar bribes that had requirement to report on certain issues. "Free Press"?

Long on hyperbole short on facts. https://mch.govt.nz/media-sector-support/journalism-fund. Seems normal.

westerly

Joshuatree
23-07-2021, 08:40 PM
I find alot of the media and radio blatantly biased against our govt,it's a little embarrassing but they like some on here won't be able to divide this country,changes are coming for all for the better for most.Cant do much about the haters,they've just gotta hate,very sad,no personal growth there but they've gotta own up and take responsibility for that if they want to live with meaning in this one life.

iceman
23-07-2021, 08:50 PM
I wonder why you feel a need to announce putting somebody on ignore list. It only makes Balances point that much stronger.

Simple. BP has increasingly shown support for the cancel culture and banning of free speech and debate. Should be of no surprise that he puts posters with alternative views on an "ignore list". Why would you come to a thread of political debate and then ban opposing views.

Balance
23-07-2021, 09:20 PM
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZSJsL32oo/

Notice how their noses are growing longer by the month?

Joshuatree
23-07-2021, 09:42 PM
Haters are traitors

Balance
23-07-2021, 09:51 PM
Haters are traitors

Trump said that.

Bjauck
23-07-2021, 11:32 PM
Not dissimilar with whats happening globally.
ie: BBC and Guardian in UK have been heavily funded by Bill Gates. The mind boggles as to what they write in his favour.
The days of undistorted media are history. What is your source for this information?. As far as I am aware the BBC receives most of its funds from TV licence fees that the public has to pay if they receive TV broadcasts. They receive some money from commercial sales.

The old NZBC used to be funded similarly. The ABC in Oz and CBC in Canada get government money.

Bjauck
23-07-2021, 11:48 PM
I find alot of the media and radio blatantly biased against our govt,it's a little embarrassing but they like some on here won't be able to divide this country,changes are coming for all for the better for most.Cant do much about the haters,they've just gotta hate,very sad,no personal growth there but they've gotta own up and take responsibility for that if they want to live with meaning in this one life.

I think the NZ media by and large, and to the extent that they bother with investigative journalism, are critical of the government, no matter how it is comprised. I think that is good for a democracy, considering the parties in government generally get more opportunities to broadcast and pronounce on their policies.

ynot
24-07-2021, 08:03 AM
What is your source for this information?. As far as I am aware the BBC receives most of its funds from TV licence fees that the public has to pay if they receive TV broadcasts. They receive some money from commercial sales.

The old NZBC used to be funded similarly. The ABC in Oz and CBC in Canada get government money.

follow the link in the article to gates website.

https://off-guardian.org/2021/05/18/how-bill-gates-big-pharma-used-children-as-guinea-pigs-and-got-away-with-it/

Bjauck
24-07-2021, 08:51 AM
follow the link in the article to gates website.

https://off-guardian.org/2021/05/18/how-bill-gates-big-pharma-used-children-as-guinea-pigs-and-got-away-with-it/

I think you are referring to the BBC Media Action charity. The governments of the UK, Norway, Sweden, United Nations and EU are far bigger donors to that charity.

As for The Gates donations to the Guardian, their foundation also donated to the Telegraph Newspaper and to the London Standard. They are both Right Wing papers and occupy a far different location on the political spectrum. The donations were to assist scientific and medical journalism.

I do not think that media is any more distorted than it has been throughout history. In fact in many countries I think funding of media is more transparent.

BBC Media Action
https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaaction/where-we-work

Zaphod
24-07-2021, 09:34 AM
to the extent that they bother with investigative journalism

There in lies the issue I have with the current media outlets, that there is very little true in-depth investigative journalism. Instead we receive numerous shallow and fluffy feel good-articles, which perhaps reflects the preference of modern society boosted by social media.

ynot
24-07-2021, 09:42 AM
I think you are referring to the BBC Media Action charity. The governments of the UK, Norway, Sweden, United Nations and EU are far bigger donors to that charity.

As for The Gates donations to the Guardian, their foundation also donated to the Telegraph Newspaper and to the London Standard. They are both Right Wing papers and occupy a far different location on the political spectrum. The donations were to assist scientific and medical journalism.

I do not think that media is any more distorted than it has been throughout history. In fact in many countries I think funding of media is more transparent.

BBC Media Action
https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaaction/where-we-work

This is where you and I differ then.
I dont think it has ever been more distorted than it is today.
Bill Gates immense wealth and power being my best example.

BlackPeter
24-07-2021, 11:11 AM
And how hard are these private entities going to bite the hand that feeds them? Is it a coincidence that both Stuff and the Herald both now have specialised Maori Issues sections? Stuff are currently are running propaganda on both Covid and Climate Change as well. They regularly run "explainer" pieces which suit Ardern's position very well. Only now the Minister for Propaganda's name isn't Joseph Goebbels, it's Jacinda Ardern.

But everything is OK. Cindy is keeping you safe. She's spending your grandchildren's tax dollars, but you'll be safe and warm....cosy. Sleep well.

Disgusting but educational post. You manage to summarize basically everything what is wrong with the extreme right and dumb. On the other hand - views like this will make sure that the majority will keep voting left wing parties given that National does not seem to have enough spine to keep racists , antivaxxers and climate change deniers at bay.

What exactly is wrong with the press using a science based approach when reporting on Covid and climate change? Do you want them to report instead on the views of hundreds of inconsistent believes and conspiracy theories?

Not sure either what's wrong with a Maori section in the paper either. Aren't you propagating the right for free speech every time you spread your conspiracy theories?

Oh, you mean you only support free speech if you like it - and free press is for you only press touting around the sickening believes of one particular (well, your) bubble?

Sad.

BlackPeter
24-07-2021, 11:32 AM
Simple. BP has increasingly shown support for the cancel culture and banning of free speech and debate. Should be of no surprise that he puts posters with alternative views on an "ignore list". Why would you come to a thread of political debate and then ban opposing views.

Pretty sad post.

In general I am setting posters on the ignore list if they are repeatedly parroting conspiracy theories or self evident lies (like climate change deniers, anti vaxers, flat earth believers, Trumpistas). If posters demonstrate consistently bad judgement by repeating self evident lies - what is the point of debating with them?

I am as well putting people on ignore when they start to play the player, not the ball. This are posters who know that they lost the argument. Anybody decent would admit that (or just shut up), but they try to score by running personal attacks. Life is too short to continue arguing with them.

Obviously - I don't "ban" people. This is the prerogative of the moderator. Why are you posting such a nonsense?

BTW - you are getting close to move on the ignore list as well. I am disappointed by your post and would not have expected to see you making personal attacks, but hey - I am always learning. :):

Blue Skies
24-07-2021, 12:56 PM
This is where you and I differ then.
I dont think it has ever been more distorted than it is today.
Bill Gates immense wealth and power being my best example.



If Bill Gates is your best example, you might not have heard of Rupert Murdoch's media empire ( including Fox News - you know the one whose lawyers got them off the prosecution for publishing blatantly false info on the basis it was just infotainment & no one should take it seriously) or the Koch Brothers wealth & power for starters.
You might be a bit surprised & more than a bit shocked.

ynot
24-07-2021, 01:01 PM
If Bill Gates is your best example, you might not have heard of Rupert Murdoch's media empire ( including Fox News - you know the one whose lawyers got them off the prosecution for publishing blatantly false info on the basis it was just infotainment & no one should take it seriously) or the Koch Brothers wealth & power for starters.
You might be a bit surprised & more than a bit shocked.
So you have no issues with Bills motives ?

dobby41
24-07-2021, 02:44 PM
So you have no issues with Bills motives ?

I find the conclusions you draw to comment very telling on the way you think.

ynot
24-07-2021, 03:05 PM
I find the conclusions you draw to comment very telling on the way you think.

Are you interested in answering my question?

dobby41
24-07-2021, 04:21 PM
Are you interested in answering my question?

Which question was that - was it to me?

jonu
24-07-2021, 06:07 PM
Haters are traitors

How nationalistic of you JT. Fits right in with the Goebbels modus operandi of propaganda that Ardern is utilising. She's got you right where she wants you.

jonu
24-07-2021, 06:08 PM
Long on hyperbole short on facts. https://mch.govt.nz/media-sector-support/journalism-fund. Seems normal.

westerly

That's the problem. To the Ardern converted all this seems "Normal".

iceman
25-07-2021, 12:36 PM
Yet another complete failure from the Government with immigration policy in tatters and people we desperately need here left with their lives in limbo. Be kind. Yeah right.
https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/125796584/skilled-migrants-are-leaving-in-droves-frustrated-by-lengthy-residency-delays?fbclid=IwAR0qKC2Bff3WPISAxvdsOj_eqEHBdPZVff 6m1K7L5ZV7fyOndY5MSq7Y6gg

jonu
27-07-2021, 09:03 AM
Ardern's empathy is all she has got when it comes to nurses apparently. Mind you, it is Andrew Little directly dealing with it. Former unionist and now the nurses union enemy No.1

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/ardern-and-little-need-to-wake-up-and-talk-to-nurses-before-making-decisions-on-healthcare/ar-AAMyrSe?ocid=msedgntp

Still got 750 million for their middle class North Shore cyclists though. Gotta have those North Harbour seats.

Blue Skies
27-07-2021, 11:21 AM
Ardern's empathy is all she has got when it comes to nurses apparently. Mind you, it is Andrew Little directly dealing with it. Former unionist and now the nurses union enemy No.1

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/ardern-and-little-need-to-wake-up-and-talk-to-nurses-before-making-decisions-on-healthcare/ar-AAMyrSe?ocid=msedgntp

Still got 750 million for their middle class North Shore cyclists though. Gotta have those North Harbour seats.




I was ill informed about nurses pay & conditions of employment & jumped to same conclusion until I learnt standard hospital roister consists of 3 x 10 hour shifts per week, 30 hours, leaving 4 days off.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong)
This allows many nurses to work overtime shifts to significantly boost their income & many choose to do this.


Many business people end up working high stress 10 hour days anyway 5 days a week, so 3 doesn't seem so bad, and can be very nice having extended 4 day weekends.
I hope there is more money for nurses but just saying I understand it's not quite as one sided as media present it.

jonu
27-07-2021, 11:27 AM
I was ill informed about nurses pay & conditions of employment & jumped to same conclusion until I learnt standard hospital roister consists of 3 x 10 hour shifts per week, 30 hours, leaving 4 days off.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong)
This allows many nurses to work overtime shifts to significantly boost their income & many choose to do this.


Many business people end up working high stress 10 hour days anyway 5 days a week, so 3 doesn't seem so bad, and can be very nice having extended 4 day weekends.
I hope there is more money for nurses but just saying I understand it's not quite as one sided as media present it.

I guess you'll be deciding to train up to work in ED then.

Does the overtime rate kick in after 30 hours or 40 hours? In other words, the extra shift could well be at the same rate.

dobby41
27-07-2021, 11:35 AM
Does the overtime rate kick in after 30 hours or 40 hours? In other words, the extra shift could well be at the same rate.

Would still be more money though.
Overtime rates aren't super common now since a previous Govt broke the unions.

Blue Skies
27-07-2021, 11:39 AM
I guess you'll be deciding to train up to work in ED then.

Does the overtime rate kick in after 30 hours or 40 hours? In other words, the extra shift could well be at the same rate.


Interesting point, broad generalisations, people who chose to work in ED tend to be a particular personality type (there's an area in medicine for every personality type) which is the extrovert quick thinking action high adrenalin adventure seeking type, e.g. enjoy mountain biking, rock climbing, skiing, fast paced action activities.
(Whereas for example someone in pathology tends to be more the introvert contemplative steady type. ) :)

BlackPeter
27-07-2021, 11:44 AM
Actually - just checked how much the poor nurses get paid in NZ:

12783

from https://www.careers.govt.nz/jobs-database/health-and-community/health/registered-nurse/about-the-job

Actually - this is better money than many high tec IT workers or engineers are paid in NZ. This is better money than most people starting a company will receive ... and actually it is better money than police or teachers get paid.

Just wondering whether the nurses really have a good reason to strike other than obviously - they have the nation over the knee and they can.

Maybe not just the selfless angels they pretend to be?

SBQ
27-07-2021, 02:27 PM
Actually - just checked how much the poor nurses get paid in NZ:

12783

from https://www.careers.govt.nz/jobs-database/health-and-community/health/registered-nurse/about-the-job

Actually - this is better money than many high tec IT workers or engineers are paid in NZ. This is better money than most people starting a company will receive ... and actually it is better money than police or teachers get paid.

Just wondering whether the nurses really have a good reason to strike other than obviously - they have the nation over the knee and they can.

Maybe not just the selfless angels they pretend to be?

How does the NZ pay compare to what nurses get over in Australia?

When I grew up in Canada, it was always the argument of pay in similar comparison. Over in the US, reg. nurses there were on the order of x2 times more than the pay nurses received in Canada. It was like that for all professions in medical - top hospitals would canvas directly at med schools in Canada with rich pay packets that included no hassle moving, no hassle with immigration visas, and a $10K signing bonus (this was in 1990s where you would get $10K just to sign up). Naturally all the top graduates moved to the US citing 'brain drain' by the Cdn gov't. I would imagine between NZ & Australia, the move over is even easier without the need of visa work permits.

BlackPeter
27-07-2021, 03:43 PM
How does the NZ pay compare to what nurses get over in Australia?

When I grew up in Canada, it was always the argument of pay in similar comparison. Over in the US, reg. nurses there were on the order of x2 times more than the pay nurses received in Canada. It was like that for all professions in medical - top hospitals would canvas directly at med schools in Canada with rich pay packets that included no hassle moving, no hassle with immigration visas, and a $10K signing bonus (this was in 1990s where you would get $10K just to sign up). Naturally all the top graduates moved to the US citing 'brain drain' by the Cdn gov't. I would imagine between NZ & Australia, the move over is even easier without the need of visa work permits.

Well, yes - but only for people without brain. Nobody in their right mind would be happy to move to a country where they have to pay all the taxes but don't get any support if things turn pear shaped. You know, things like illness or impaired children being born do happen. Ossie taxpayer however does not care if this happens to dumb Kiwis who went over the ditch for a handful of peanuts more ...

Anybody going to Australia without having at least permanent residence is in my view no loss to NZ - they are not able to assess risks and act very irresponsible. Only thing is - we should not allow them to return when things get bad for them over there to suck from the NZ tax payer whom they didn't support while things went well.

Bjauck
27-07-2021, 03:52 PM
….the aussies chew the kiwis up and then spit ‘em out!

Logen Ninefingers
28-07-2021, 10:46 AM
Micheal Would (if he could) and Cynical Cindy are leaving these people to rot, and fellow hypocritical Lefty Phil Goof is equally culpable. Disgusting.
Money - millions to hundreds of millions - is earmarked for the mongrel mob, the ISIS bride, He Puapua hui's, a white elephant cycle bridge across the Auckland harbour....but nothing for suicidal business people whose lives have been destroyed by the white elephant CRL which is growing like Topsy and consuming untold billions for negligible gain.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/125856076/nightmare-on-albert-street

Nightmare on Albert Street

Rob Stock
05:00, Jul 28 2021

OPINION: What is being done to the business owners of Auckland’s construction hell block is cruel.

Their businesses and health are being destroyed by the construction project on the intersection of Albert St and Victoria St West in the heart of Auckland’s CBD to build the city’s light rail link.

When the project to build the rail link was developed all costs were calculated, except the cost to the people with the misfortune to have a business fronting the construction site.

That was a cost they would have to bear alone.

It is hard to convey how awful the plight of the shop owners in the area of the Albert St and Victoria St junction is.
Reporters often meet people who have suffered traumatic events, but it is still shocking to see grown men break down and weep.

On Friday, new Labour MP Helen White met business owners, in what felt like a genuine attempt to gather human stories to take back to Labour grandees in a bid to press the case for compensation.
After sitting though the meeting, I was talking with Vijay Chauhan, the 34-year-old owner of the Taj Mahal restaurant on Victoria Street, and Viv Beck, chief executive of the Heart of the City, when suddenly Chauhan turned his back, and began to cry.

Chauhan had not opened his restaurant in 23 days.

“It’s not good for my mental health to stand there all day listening to the noise with no customers,” he told me.
He was the fourth owner who had cried as they told their story to me on Thursday and Friday last week.

He was not the first to tell me he had been prescribed antidepressants, and was taking sleeping pills.

Earlier he asked White if it would take someone to kill themselves to make the Government do something to help.
What is happening to these people is so simple to understand, and yet it seems it’s too hard for the authorities to grasp.

There is a goliath construction project literally arm’s length from these people's shop doors.
Customers can only get to them by running a gauntlet of sewer smells, excruciating noise, dust, and dismal narrow passageways, while squeezing past burly construction workers.
You have to stand in Riven Liang’s barber shop at 98 Albert St to really understand how deafening the noise is.

“Do you hear the music?” he shouts to me, though we are standing next to each other inside, with the door to the street closed.

I don’t.

Then there is a momentary lull in the drilling and vibration.

Liang’s got a stereo on, and not quietly either. I hadn’t realised.
You'd have to be profoundly deaf to want to get a haircut in his shop right now.

Shobhana Ranchhodji owner of florist Roma Blooms used to get 25 customers a day come into her shop, as well as online orders.

Now courier drivers can’t get to her to pick up flowers, and she’s lucky to get two customers a day come into her shop in person.
Andy Ariano, a kind, quietly-spoken, dignified man, closed his restaurant Da Vinci on Saturday for the last time after successfully operating there for a decade.
It’s heartbreaking to see this forced on a man who has done everything our society wants from its people.

He’s stood on his own two feet, created jobs, paid taxes, contributed the life of our city, and he has been repaid with this.

What hurts these people most is that the open-handed generosity of the Covid era, in which those who suffered financial hardship through no fault of their own, were helped, does not extend to them.

Let’s be clear: This is not just about money. It is about decency and conscience. It is about not treating people as though they don’t matter. Real harm is being done here.
It was all so predictable, and yet, the cost of that harm was left to sit on these people’s shoulders, in order to build the rest of us a light railway.

It all begs the question: What sort of society does this to people?

jonu
28-07-2021, 10:55 AM
Micheal Would (if he could) and Cynical Cindy are leaving these people to rot, and fellow hypocritical Lefty Phil Goof is equally culpable. Disgusting.
Money - millions to hundreds of millions - is earmarked for the mongrel mob, the ISIS bride, He Puapua hui's, a white elephant cycle bridge across the Auckland harbour....but nothing for suicidal business people whose lives have been destroyed by the white elephant CRL which is growing like Topsy and consuming untold billions for negligible gain.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/125856076/nightmare-on-albert-street

Nightmare on Albert Street

Rob Stock
05:00, Jul 28 2021

OPINION: What is being done to the business owners of Auckland’s construction hell block is cruel.

Their businesses and health are being destroyed by the construction project on the intersection of Albert St and Victoria St West in the heart of Auckland’s CBD to build the city’s light rail link.

When the project to build the rail link was developed all costs were calculated, except the cost to the people with the misfortune to have a business fronting the construction site.

That was a cost they would have to bear alone.

It is hard to convey how awful the plight of the shop owners in the area of the Albert St and Victoria St junction is.
Reporters often meet people who have suffered traumatic events, but it is still shocking to see grown men break down and weep.

On Friday, new Labour MP Helen White met business owners, in what felt like a genuine attempt to gather human stories to take back to Labour grandees in a bid to press the case for compensation.
After sitting though the meeting, I was talking with Vijay Chauhan, the 34-year-old owner of the Taj Mahal restaurant on Victoria Street, and Viv Beck, chief executive of the Heart of the City, when suddenly Chauhan turned his back, and began to cry.

Chauhan had not opened his restaurant in 23 days.

“It’s not good for my mental health to stand there all day listening to the noise with no customers,” he told me.
He was the fourth owner who had cried as they told their story to me on Thursday and Friday last week.

He was not the first to tell me he had been prescribed antidepressants, and was taking sleeping pills.

Earlier he asked White if it would take someone to kill themselves to make the Government do something to help.
What is happening to these people is so simple to understand, and yet it seems it’s too hard for the authorities to grasp.

There is a goliath construction project literally arm’s length from these people's shop doors.
Customers can only get to them by running a gauntlet of sewer smells, excruciating noise, dust, and dismal narrow passageways, while squeezing past burly construction workers.
You have to stand in Riven Liang’s barber shop at 98 Albert St to really understand how deafening the noise is.

“Do you hear the music?” he shouts to me, though we are standing next to each other inside, with the door to the street closed.

I don’t.

Then there is a momentary lull in the drilling and vibration.

Liang’s got a stereo on, and not quietly either. I hadn’t realised.
You'd have to be profoundly deaf to want to get a haircut in his shop right now.

Shobhana Ranchhodji owner of florist Roma Blooms used to get 25 customers a day come into her shop, as well as online orders.

Now courier drivers can’t get to her to pick up flowers, and she’s lucky to get two customers a day come into her shop in person.
Andy Ariano, a kind, quietly-spoken, dignified man, closed his restaurant Da Vinci on Saturday for the last time after successfully operating there for a decade.
It’s heartbreaking to see this forced on a man who has done everything our society wants from its people.

He’s stood on his own two feet, created jobs, paid taxes, contributed the life of our city, and he has been repaid with this.

What hurts these people most is that the open-handed generosity of the Covid era, in which those who suffered financial hardship through no fault of their own, were helped, does not extend to them.

Let’s be clear: This is not just about money. It is about decency and conscience. It is about not treating people as though they don’t matter. Real harm is being done here.
It was all so predictable, and yet, the cost of that harm was left to sit on these people’s shoulders, in order to build the rest of us a light railway.

It all begs the question: What sort of society does this to people?




Let's face it....Ardern's "Be Kind" mantra only extends to those whose numbers deliver seats in parliament. Don't expect to see her anywhere near it. Her credibility already stretched further this week with her rejection of the 18k children pushed into poverty. Refuses to accept the methodology when the evidence is staring her in the teeth!

peetter
28-07-2021, 12:07 PM
Well, yes - but only for people without brain. Nobody in their right mind would be happy to move to a country where they have to pay all the taxes but don't get any support if things turn pear shaped. You know, things like illness or impaired children being born do happen. Ossie taxpayer however does not care if this happens to dumb Kiwis who went over the ditch for a handful of peanuts more ...

Anybody going to Australia without having at least permanent residence is in my view no loss to NZ - they are not able to assess risks and act very irresponsible. Only thing is - we should not allow them to return when things get bad for them over there to suck from the NZ tax payer whom they didn't support while things went well.

This is laughable. Nothing in life is without risk. My brother is in Australia for years only on work visa and doing great. I can assure you he is perfectly capable of assessing all of the risks and rewards and is not "very irresponsible" as he actually hit the IQ scale ceiling.

Balance
28-07-2021, 03:17 PM
Let's face it....Ardern's "Be Kind" mantra only extends to those whose numbers deliver seats in parliament. Don't expect to see her anywhere near it. Her credibility already stretched further this week with her rejection of the 18k children pushed into poverty. Refuses to accept the methodology when the evidence is staring her in the teeth!

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2021/07/housing-rental-prices-blast-off-to-record-high-after-flat-few-months.html?fbclid=IwAR0lARqnLMDIIFeoGyQfEVwuiV9wP YIrq82ooI6D4ATfk3l4V9x_nFouEQs

Rents go sky high to record levels - totally predictable but of course it's landlords' fault - nothing to do with the government shoving regulations and costs down the throat of landlords.

Balance
28-07-2021, 03:20 PM
This is laughable. Nothing in life is without risk. My brother is in Australia for years only on work visa and doing great. I can assure you he is perfectly capable of assessing all of the risks and rewards and is not "very irresponsible" as he actually hit the IQ scale ceiling.

Agreed.

3 doctor friends of mine are over there (no Aussie citizenship) and they are earning twice as much for half the hours worked, plus consultancy incomes. Very very happy and as far as they are concerned, they have no problem with the 'peanuts' paid. :t_up:

dobby41
28-07-2021, 04:26 PM
[url]Rents go sky high to record levels - totally predictable but of course it's landlords' fault - nothing to do with the government shoving regulations and costs down the throat of landlords.

Are you a landlord? I'm just trying to work out if you talk from experience or 'what you have heard'.
I am a landlord and haven't found the regulations have added much in the way of costs.
But then, I don't have houses that need to be made livable - they always have been through sensible maintenance and upgrades.

fungus pudding
28-07-2021, 04:49 PM
Are you a landlord? I'm just trying to work out if you talk from experience or 'what you have heard'.
I am a landlord and haven't found the regulations have added much in the way of costs.
But then, I don't have houses that need to be made livable - they always have been through sensible maintenance and upgrades.
Do you not consider paying tax on your mortgage interest to be an increased cost?

dobby41
28-07-2021, 04:58 PM
Do you not consider paying tax on your mortgage interest to be an increased cost?

Not to the extent that I would expect the tenants to pay it.
A mortgage is your choice, those without mortgages will still put rents up if they increase - it is about 'what the market will bear' rather than 'cost plus'.

When CGT was being discussed a few years back many landlords were saying that they'd just charge more rent to make up for the tax on their gain.
Many Landlords aren't steeped in rational thinking. On one hand, they say they are in it for the income then get grumpy if the gain (that they weren't 'interested' in) gets taxed.
They said the same about the Brightline test.

fungus pudding
28-07-2021, 05:03 PM
Not to the extent that I would expect the tenants to pay it.
A mortgage is your choice, those without mortgages will still put rents up if they increase - it is about 'what the market will bear' rather than 'cost plus'.

When CGT was being discussed a few years back many landlords were saying that they'd just charge more rent to make up for the tax on their gain.
Many Landlords aren't steeped in rational thinking. On one hand, they say they are in it for the income then get grumpy if the gain (that they weren't 'interested' in) gets taxed.
They said the same about the Brightline test.
They can only increase rents in line with the market. I was addressing the point of increased costs to landlords, and the illogical and absurd tax change will be a huge cost to many

artemis
28-07-2021, 05:05 PM
Do you not consider paying tax on your mortgage interest to be an increased cost?

Also more risk now it is very difficult to terminate risky tenants.

Recent changes to regulations have added a huge amount of complexity and many new fines. I would expect to see more owners engage property managers, a cost of around 10% of rent plus margins and letting fees, both paid by landlords.

dobby41
28-07-2021, 05:08 PM
….the aussies chew the kiwis up and then spit ‘em out!

They do - they have a real 'F... you' attitude.
That is why I prefer to live here than there, I find that they are very selfish and American-like in many of their attitudes.
Adern got taken for a sucker when she thought that they were honorable and would do what they said.

Of course, their attitude is showing with the marches and their response to the Sydney lockdown resulting in the said lockdown being extended for another 4 weeks - more lockdown time than NZ. More fool them!

artemis
28-07-2021, 05:11 PM
They can only increase rents in line with the market. I was addressing the point of increased costs to landlords, and the illogical and absurd tax change will be a huge cost to many

Well that depends. Landlords can set rent to whatever they like, though can decide to change that if there are no acceptable takers. Or too many takers. Or make other decisions. Because they can.

Bjauck
28-07-2021, 05:30 PM

He’s stood on his own two feet, created jobs, paid taxes, contributed the life of our city, and he
It all begs the question: What sort of society does this to people?

The NZ compensation regime for those affected by public works is woefully inadequate and not fit for purpose in the C21st.

jonu
28-07-2021, 05:34 PM
The drums are beating. Ardern and Robertson are fast burning their political capital.

https://mailchi.mp/democracyproject/political-roundup-labours-sacrificing-of-the-poor?e=89627acd5b

Bjauck
28-07-2021, 05:38 PM
They do - they have a real 'F... you' attitude.
That is why I prefer to live here than there, I find that they are very selfish and American-like in many of their attitudes.
Adern got taken for a sucker when she thought that they were honorable and would do what they said.

Of course, their attitude is showing with the marches and their response to the Sydney lockdown resulting in the said lockdown being extended for another 4 weeks - more lockdown time than NZ. More fool them!Your experience of Americans must be different from mine.

However, I agree, there does seem to be a large Trumpist element in both the UK and Oz.

fungus pudding
28-07-2021, 06:23 PM
Well that depends. Landlords can set rent to whatever they like, though can decide to change that if there are no acceptable takers. Or too many takers. Or make other decisions. Because they can.

They can set them as low as they like but that Mean Mr. Market puts the brakes on the increases, as you acknowledge; so they cannot set rents at whatever they like

Balance
28-07-2021, 06:57 PM
The drums are beating. Ardern and Robertson are fast burning their political capital.

https://mailchi.mp/democracyproject/political-roundup-labours-sacrificing-of-the-poor?e=89627acd5b

Increase in benefits & increased minimum wages chewed up by increased cost of living, especially housing.

In desperation, watch this government bring in ever more repressive policies against hard working NZers & wealth creators while piling on ever more benefits to their voter base.

And yes, more distractions by favoring Maoris to retain that voting bloc and stay in power to destroy the future of NZ for future generations.

SBQ
28-07-2021, 08:57 PM
This is laughable. Nothing in life is without risk. My brother is in Australia for years only on work visa and doing great. I can assure you he is perfectly capable of assessing all of the risks and rewards and is not "very irresponsible" as he actually hit the IQ scale ceiling.

Those without a brain move to Australia under different assessment than those with high level of skills who choose to move there because of the much higher pay. Registered nurses are a skilled category - they move to Australia NOT under the Trans-Tasman agreement. They move there under a proper 'work visa' that entitles them PR and a direct path to obtaining Australian citizenship.

Zaphod
29-07-2021, 08:13 AM
Those without a brain move to Australia under different assessment than those with high level of skills who choose to move there because of the much higher pay.

That does depend upon whether the person intends to permanently move to Australia, and whether they are certain they wish to be tied to their employer. When we moved to Australia, despite our roles being in the high skill category, we elected to go via the SCV route, on the premise that if we intended to stay long-term and pursue citizenship we could always leave and return again using a different visa. In the unlikely event of things turned to custard while we were there would could have always returned to NZ.

dobby41
29-07-2021, 08:45 AM
Do you not consider paying tax on your mortgage interest to be an increased cost?

I forgot to mention that the interest deductibility changes haven't actually come into effect yet.
100% deductibility until 1st October 2021 then 75% to the end of the financial year.
50% next year, then 25% (23/24) and 0 24 onwards.
So anyone raising rents on the back of a change that hasn't happened is being disingenuous at best.

fungus pudding
29-07-2021, 08:59 AM
I forgot to mention that the interest deductibility changes haven't actually come into effect yet.
100% deductibility until 1st October 2021 then 75% to the end of the financial year.
50% next year, then 25% (23/24) and 0 24 onwards.
So anyone raising rents on the back of a change that hasn't happened is being disingenuous at best.

They are restricted to raising rents by the self-regulating market imposed limits. That is how the world works. They can't suddenly increase rents because tax rules are changing. But rents will rise in time as the rental pool dries up because of the increased difficulty in making a profit - which will eventually drive rents. Supply and demand - study it.

dobby41
29-07-2021, 09:11 AM
They are restricted to raising rents by the self-regulating market imposed limits. That is how the world works. They can't suddenly increase rents because tax rules are changing. But rents will rise in time as the rental pool dries up because of the increased difficulty in making a profit - which will eventually drive rents. Supply and demand - study it.

I know how it works, I am a large landlord with quite a few years' experience.
I suspect we are talking across each other but saying the same thing.

Balance
29-07-2021, 09:25 AM
I know how it works, I am a large landlord with quite a few years' experience.
I suspect we are talking across each other but saying the same thing.

As stated - yet another failure of Cindy & her dumb team of incompetents.

All spin and no delivery.

jonu
29-07-2021, 09:26 AM
I know how it works, I am a large landlord with quite a few years' experience.
I suspect we are talking across each other but saying the same thing.

Interesting that one of the strongest defenders on this forum of Ardern's administration, describes themselves as a large landlord. Speaks volumes. You have undoubtedly enjoyed a massive increase in the value of your capital base, all tax free provided you stay on the right side of the bright line. But what of Labour's traditional constituency? The people who now have no show of ever buying even one house while having sleepless nights as to where next weeks rent money is coming from and heading to the Food bank to feed their kids,

Nothing personal against you dobby41, you have done nothing wrong being a landlord, but you have to admit, it's all arse about face as to what Labour should be doing!

dobby41
29-07-2021, 10:06 AM
Nothing personal against you dobby41, you have done nothing wrong being a landlord, but you have to admit, it's all arse about face as to what Labour should be doing!

Trying to make landlords do the right thing (Healthy Homes) and slow the rise driven by cheap money - that's what they are trying to do.

Balance
29-07-2021, 10:13 AM
Trying to make landlords do the right thing (Healthy Homes) and slow the rise driven by cheap money - that's what they are trying to do.

And failing dismally - all spin and no delivery.

jonu
29-07-2021, 10:14 AM
Trying to make landlords do the right thing (Healthy Homes) and slow the rise driven by cheap money - that's what they are trying to do.

Well, much to the benefit of your personal wealth, they have failed miserably, and screwed over their traditional constituency in the meantime. But hey, they sit on the throne and can do the stuff they really care about, imposing their woke agenda on NZ while dishing out lollies.

Blue Skies
29-07-2021, 12:29 PM
Well, much to the benefit of your personal wealth, they have failed miserably, and screwed over their traditional constituency in the meantime. But hey, they sit on the throne and can do the stuff they really care about, imposing their woke agenda on NZ while dishing out lollies.


Although I wouldn't use those words, agree that the rapid increase under this govt to the most unaffordable house prices in the world (& rents too? ) are a disaster for the country & will cast a stain on this govt's legacy for a long time to come.

Too much cheap money pumped into the economy, with no increase in productivity, chasing the same amount of assets = inflation.
With house prices & rents as high as they are, the social welfare bill is going to skyrocket as well as all the social problems which come with low home ownership rates.

Anyone with even considerable wealth tied up in housing must be worried about their children's & eventually their grandchildren's prospects for home ownership. I know I am & worry about my relatives kids and their group of young friends.

When I was in my early 20's you could buy a 3 bedroom house with a section in a suburb like Remuera or Herne Bay for around $30,000, today I just looked at a very basic tiny 2 brm unit with no off street parking asking $1.3 million. Crazy.

The implications are huge, young couples putting off having children while desperately trying to save for a house or try & get on top of eye watering mortgages.
Young kids in rental accommodation being moved from school to school with no security of home ownership.
Increasing numbers living in motels or cars.
etc etc

SBQ
29-07-2021, 12:53 PM
Well, much to the benefit of your personal wealth, they have failed miserably, and screwed over their traditional constituency in the meantime. But hey, they sit on the throne and can do the stuff they really care about, imposing their woke agenda on NZ while dishing out lollies.

Landlords never do the right thing - they work on minimum requirements. I mean the gov't had to bring in the Healthy Homes Act because of that. They've turned rentals into a profit making game. It reminds me of the Three's Company TV show my parents use to watch in the 80s where Mr Furley (the landlord) would always say, "I'm providing a service to you! now pay up!"

Yep for a moment I thought Jacinda was doing something about releasing funds for infrastructure which would increase the supply of houses. Far too slow.

NZ politicians have a conflict of interest (which applies to ALL politicians regardless of which party they're from). If they own multiple houses, they can no formulate any meaningful policy that jeopardizes their investment - plain and simple.

artemis
29-07-2021, 01:04 PM
..... When I was in my early 20's you could buy a 3 bedroom house with a section in a suburb like Remuera or Herne Bay for around $30,000, today I just looked at a very basic tiny 2 brm unit with no off street parking asking $1.3 million. Crazy.

The implications are huge, young couples putting off having children while desperately trying to save for a house or try & get on top of eye watering mortgages.
Young kids in rental accommodation being moved from school to school with no security of home ownership.
Increasing numbers living in motels or cars.
etc etc

Wellington is an expensive city for renting and buying. But that young couple could look at Wellington apartments or suburb do-up units as a first step for few years while building income and skills and paying down the mortgage. I was looking this week at a nice 2 bedroom apartment with garage very close to the CBD, BEO $495k. Company share plus body corp fees.

Probably not a forever home for a young couple but a start.

Or they could decide not to delay babies and stay renting.

I know, not an either / or choice but there are choices involved. And outcomes.

Balance
29-07-2021, 01:07 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-young-regional-gp-with-1300-patients-leaves-new-zealand-following-residency-limbo/PB7I2SWONUF6ZHOJUZF7HYQLKQ/

Horrendous shortage of health personnel, especially doctors but this government goes out of its way to make prospective migrants from that sector feel unwelcome.

WTF!

Too busy with spin - everything else is left to rot and indecision.

$100m for fixing marae to get votes was easy but taking care of health matters - too hard.

Balance
29-07-2021, 01:20 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/447983/clark-on-supermarket-report-i-think-we-all-want-a-better-deal

Now watch the government screw this up with the nerd head David ‘lockdown does not apply to me’ Clark in charge.

artemis
29-07-2021, 01:26 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/447983/clark-on-supermarket-report-i-think-we-all-want-a-better-deal
Now watch the government screw this up with the nerd head David ‘lockdown does not apply to me’ Clark in charge.

I did see a while back that My Food Bag was the third biggest retail food supplier. Add in Hello Fresh and a range of smaller retailers and that looks like food competition to me.

dobby41
29-07-2021, 01:29 PM
I did see a while back that My Food Bag was the third biggest retail food supplier. Add in Hello Fresh and a range of smaller retailers and that looks like food competition to me.

It isn't when suppliers are held to ransom and the 'competition' is too small to really make a difference.
Getting off the list with one or the other of the big 2 could kill your business.

winner69
29-07-2021, 02:17 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/447983/clark-on-supermarket-report-i-think-we-all-want-a-better-deal

Now watch the government screw this up with the nerd head David ‘lockdown does not apply to me’ Clark in charge.

Clark says he was 'looking forward to reading through the 500-page report.'

Doubt whether his concentration could cope with that ... and we all know about his comprehension abilities

Blue Skies
29-07-2021, 02:45 PM
Wellington is an expensive city for renting and buying. But that young couple could look at Wellington apartments or suburb do-up units as a first step for few years while building income and skills and paying down the mortgage. I was looking this week at a nice 2 bedroom apartment with garage very close to the CBD, BEO $495k. Company share plus body corp fees.

Probably not a forever home for a young couple but a start.

Or they could decide not to delay babies and stay renting.

I know, not an either / or choice but there are choices involved. And outcomes.



Apologies this off topic.

Have considered Wellington real estate too for investment, but a couple things I've recently learnt,

1) banks wont lend on 'company share' ownership which rules out 1st home buyers & anyone without cash or around 80% equity (limits resale value)

and 2) the risk around buildings close to CBD being built on land which doesn't meet insurance earthquake criteria (& understand this is not publicly defined) & risk WLG city council in future expand that area & criteria from present levels meaning what's insurable now may not be sometime in future.

artemis
29-07-2021, 03:41 PM
Apologies this off topic.

Have considered Wellington real estate too for investment, but a couple things I've recently learnt,

1) banks wont lend on 'company share' ownership which rules out 1st home buyers & anyone without cash or around 80% equity (limits resale value)

and 2) the risk around buildings close to CBD being built on land which doesn't meet insurance earthquake criteria (& understand this is not publicly defined) & risk WLG city council in future expand that area & criteria from present levels meaning what's insurable now may not be sometime in future.

Am well aware of company share. Point was that there are reasonably priced options even in expensive Wellington.

winner69
29-07-2021, 03:50 PM
This interesting

How the Government has fuelled rampant increases in wealth

https://democracyproject.nz/2021/07/29/bryce-edwards-political-roundup-the-rampant-increases-in-wealth-fuelled-by-the-government/

Bjauck
29-07-2021, 05:32 PM
This interesting

How the Government has fuelled rampant increases in wealth

https://democracyproject.nz/2021/07/29/bryce-edwards-political-roundup-the-rampant-increases-in-wealth-fuelled-by-the-government/

So it sounds as though older pakeha have befited the most financially under this government - with lots of untaxed capital gains under the young vibrant multicultural team at Labour. Is it now the true blue Party for the landowners?

Zaphod
29-07-2021, 09:55 PM
Landlords never do the right thing - they work on minimum requirements. I mean the gov't had to bring in the Healthy Homes Act because of that. They've turned rentals into a profit making game. It reminds me of the Three's Company TV show my parents use to watch in the 80s where Mr Furley (the landlord) would always say, "I'm providing a service to you! now pay up!"
.

Was the provision of rental accommodation by private individuals not supposed to be profitable? I'm not sure what you mean there.

Landlords do not all work on "minimum requirements" and neither to all tenants, but there are a proportion of each that do.

SBQ
29-07-2021, 09:56 PM
This interesting

How the Government has fuelled rampant increases in wealth

https://democracyproject.nz/2021/07/29/bryce-edwards-political-roundup-the-rampant-increases-in-wealth-fuelled-by-the-government/


As i've been saying before in the other thread "1st homeowners are screwed"; the article quotes:

"According to this article, Treasury believe the problem is even worse, saying that 42 per cent of “High Wealth Individuals” “pay less than 10 per cent of their total income in tax. That is lower than the lowest income tax rate which is 10.5 per cent, which income earners pay on income up to $14,000.” Reserve Bank data is also cited to show that “the top 10 per cent of New Zealanders owned 70 per cent of all wealth.”
Treasury has also carried out research to show that “A quarter of all household wealth in New Zealand is concentrated in the hands of the richest 1 per cent”

Balance
29-07-2021, 11:22 PM
As i've been saying before in the other thread "1st homeowners are screwed"; the article quotes:

"According to this article, Treasury believe the problem is even worse, saying that 42 per cent of “High Wealth Individuals” “pay less than 10 per cent of their total income in tax. That is lower than the lowest income tax rate which is 10.5 per cent, which income earners pay on income up to $14,000.” Reserve Bank data is also cited to show that “the top 10 per cent of New Zealanders owned 70 per cent of all wealth.”
Treasury has also carried out research to show that “A quarter of all household wealth in New Zealand is concentrated in the hands of the richest 1 per cent”

Not that different in most OECD countries :

US - According to the latest Fed data, the top 1% of Americans have a combined net worth of $34.2 trillion (or 30.4% of all household wealth in the U.S.), while the bottom 50% of the population holds just $2.1 trillion combined (or 1.9% of all wealth).

UK - top 1% own 21% of all household wealth and top 10% own 53% of all household wealth.

Australia - top 1% own 23%, more than the bottom 70% combined.

dobby41
30-07-2021, 08:12 AM
So it sounds as though older pakeha have befited the most financially under this government - with lots of untaxed capital gains under the young vibrant multicultural team at Labour. Is it now the true blue Party for the landowners?

This has always been the case irrespective of Govt flavour.
Those with capital do best and older pakeha has always had the capital.
Of course, the rapid growth in asset prices has been a phenomenon across the world - maybe Labour are to blame for them all?

Balance
30-07-2021, 08:20 AM
This has always been the case irrespective of Govt flavour.
Those with capital do best and older pakeha has always had the capital.
Of course, the rapid growth in asset prices has been a phenomenon across the world - maybe Labour are to blame for them all?

Note the narrative from the Purveyors of BS & Spin?

Anything which is remotely positive, Cindy & her sympathisers grab credit.

Anything negative, blame others and deflect responsibility.

A government with no moral or ethical bearing or conviction.

Balance
30-07-2021, 08:33 AM
It can be done - except in NZ where front of the queue (Nov 2020 Chris Hipkins) = last in the queue (July 2021).

Enjoy the pandemic & isolation - courtesy of an incompetent government.

E.U. vaccinations surpass the U.S.
The 27 member states altogether have now administered more coronavirus vaccine doses per 100 people than the U.S.: 102.66 to 102.44.

This month, the bloc also overtook the U.S. in first injections — currently, 58 percent to 56.5 percent. Earlier this year, the E.U. faced vaccine shortages while the U.S. rollout was initially more successful.

Some member countries, like France and Italy, have implemented vaccine mandates to try to speed up inoculations. And as campaigns decrease or plateau in some countries, officials are urging younger age groups to get vaccinated.

Hesitancy: The bloc is vaccinating at a faster pace than most developed countries, while U.S. rates have declined. Around 79 percent of E.U. residents say they intend to get vaccinated this year, according to a May survey. The U.S. faces much more anti-vaccine sentiment.

Delta: Officials say the variant is now dominant in a majority of countries in the bloc. Cases have soared in countries such as the Netherlands and Portugal, and hospitalizations have increased in France and Spain.

BlackPeter
30-07-2021, 08:56 AM
Sad that it is the chair of Mainfreight who needed to remind us yesterday again what really matters:

https://www.nzx.com/announcements/376427


Closer to home in New Zealand - with all our best efforts in education, only
60% of children are regularly attending school. In the past 20 years, we
have dropped from being near the top of the world in reading and maths, to
now being close to the bottom rung.
This is and will be a great catastrophe for New Zealand - if we are unable to
produce the next generations of inventors, scientists, IT professionals,
doctors, researchers, builders, engineers, farmers and entrepreneurs.

This is a disaster in the making - and make no mistake, both National as well as Labour are responsible for this mess. Both big parties worked over the last decades hand in hand to screw up our education system - both fostering convenience (way of lowest resistance), teaching PC mumbo jumbo and padding a bunch of self serving unions and bureaucrats over the traditional values of teaching children to read and write at least one useful language, teaching them maths, teaching them to learn how to learn and teaching them discipline and respect.

Inept clowns - but I guess given that they just have to be better than the other clown and not good, it does not seem to matter..

Well, at the moment it is up to the Labour clowns to throw money at education without achieving anything but to make the education outcomes worse. How much did the increase of the teachers salaries (remember the unions buddies) improved our education system? Zilch.

Is there any political party around who is able and willing to stem this disaster and bring us back into the developed world?

Balance
30-07-2021, 08:59 AM
Why promote a world class education system?

Too busy breeding beneficiaries and it’s voter base - that’s the modus operandi of Cindy’s government.

Smart & hard working people are not good voter material for Labour & the Maori elite. They like them uneducated, poor amd welfare dependent.

artemis
30-07-2021, 11:09 AM
Preschooler in my family looking to go to an expensive private school some distance away, rather than the almost free one just around the corner.

Both parents are trained teachers, one working in a position of responsibility, the other now a tradie, but not well off at all.

Options fully investigated. That has to say something.

fungus pudding
30-07-2021, 11:13 AM
Preschooler in my family looking to go to an expensive private school some distance away, rather than the almost free one just around the corner.

Both parents are trained teachers, one working in a position of responsibility, the other now a tradie, but not well off at all.

Options fully investigated. That has to say something.

It says not all schools are equal. Nothing more.

Bjauck
30-07-2021, 12:04 PM
This has always been the case irrespective of Govt flavour.
Those with capital do best and older pakeha has always had the capital.
Of course, the rapid growth in asset prices has been a phenomenon across the world - maybe Labour are to blame for them all? Fair enough not all. However now should we expect to see Labour promoting polices in order to shift away from overseeing a K shaped recovery. Time to extract the hard reforms from the recycling bin?

westerly
30-07-2021, 12:55 PM
Note the narrative from the Purveyors of BS & Spin?

Anything which is remotely positive, Cindy & her sympathisers grab credit.

Anything negative, blame others and deflect responsibility.

A government with no moral or ethical bearing or conviction.

Note the narrative from the constant purveyor of right leaning anti left rhetoric.
NZ's Mr Beans devoted follower. :)

westerly

SBQ
30-07-2021, 01:06 PM
Not that different in most OECD countries :

US - According to the latest Fed data, the top 1% of Americans have a combined net worth of $34.2 trillion (or 30.4% of all household wealth in the U.S.), while the bottom 50% of the population holds just $2.1 trillion combined (or 1.9% of all wealth).

UK - top 1% own 21% of all household wealth and top 10% own 53% of all household wealth.

Australia - top 1% own 23%, more than the bottom 70% combined.

You've missed my point entirely and perhaps didn't even read that article. The problem is the COMPOSITION of that wealth. Like the politicians, the rich in NZ hold it in residential properties. They're not holding shares or equities on the NZX in any significant portion.

The article is pointing out how NZ politicians have a conflict of interest in dealing with rising house prices (they don't like to see their investment portfolios crash in value). Compare that to the top wealthy in America which hold most of their wealth in the stock market? Does it matter if the equity markets have crashes? No so to the rich who really don't need that extra $.

You can argue wealth is wealth - but the fact being, the wealthy in NZ have become wealthy at the cost of the others that can NOT get into their first home. Meaning when house prices rise too fast - it mostly affects those that are trying to save for a deposit. In comparison, the movements of share prices mean nothing to those people that can't even buy a house.

NZ didn't get to #1 status of most unaffordable housing in the OECD for nothing.

artemis
30-07-2021, 03:52 PM
It says not all schools are equal. Nothing more.

Can't argue with that. Though my not v well made point was that choice of school was based on knowledge and educational values.

The Ok public school the older 4 went to is now zoned and not available to (very slightly) out of zone.

Balance
30-07-2021, 03:55 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/448044/covid-19-mass-vaccination-event-takes-place-in-auckland

Excellent example of the ‘all spin & no delivery’ Cindy government - big vaccination event a shambles with waiting time of several hours. Saying they cannot organise a bun fight in a bakery is an insult to the bakery!

And this :

‘Acting Covid-19 response minister Dr Ayesha Verrall deemed today's mass vaccination event the "Olympics of vaccination" and was confident health staff would claim gold.’

Gold? How the heck to claim gold when they are presented with dog turd organisation to deal with?

Balance
30-07-2021, 06:45 PM
You've missed my point entirely and perhaps didn't even read that article. The problem is the COMPOSITION of that wealth. Like the politicians, the rich in NZ hold it in residential properties. They're not holding shares or equities on the NZX in any significant portion.

The article is pointing out how NZ politicians have a conflict of interest in dealing with rising house prices (they don't like to see their investment portfolios crash in value). Compare that to the top wealthy in America which hold most of their wealth in the stock market? Does it matter if the equity markets have crashes? No so to the rich who really don't need that extra $.

You can argue wealth is wealth - but the fact being, the wealthy in NZ have become wealthy at the cost of the others that can NOT get into their first home. Meaning when house prices rise too fast - it mostly affects those that are trying to save for a deposit. In comparison, the movements of share prices mean nothing to those people that can't even buy a house.

NZ didn't get to #1 status of most unaffordable housing in the OECD for nothing.

I hear you and I don't disagree with you at all. The issue at hand is that property has and will always be the largest component of any country's wealth - bar none. NZ is an extreme but by how much?

Any government can change the balance of wealth distribution via taxes or transformative housing programs.

CGT would have been an excellent start but Cindy shot that one down after promising to bring one in. Opportunity lost. We see NZ companies & assets (like property) sold via company shares being sold overseas for hundreds of millions of dollars/billions of dollars and the proceeds are all tax free.

Transformative housing program, like what NZ did after the war and during the 50s & 60s via a massive state housing building program, will unquestionably change the balance of wealth in favor of first home buyers.

So why does the government not do it? I see lack of vision and boldness as the principal reasons why. Adding on staff by the thousands to spin and cover up broken promises & non-delivery on undertakings seems to be the modus operandi of this government.

dobby41
31-07-2021, 10:22 AM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/448044/covid-19-mass-vaccination-event-takes-place-in-auckland

Excellent example of the ‘all spin & no delivery’ Cindy government - big vaccination event a shambles with waiting time of several hours. Saying they cannot organise a bun fight in a bakery is an insult to the bakery!

And this :

‘Acting Covid-19 response minister Dr Ayesha Verrall deemed today's mass vaccination event the "Olympics of vaccination" and was confident health staff would claim gold.’

Gold? How the heck to claim gold when they are presented with dog turd organisation to deal with?

And by 3pm they were back on track without queues.

Bjauck
31-07-2021, 12:02 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/448044/covid-19-mass-vaccination-event-takes-place-in-auckland

Excellent example of the ‘all spin & no delivery’ Cindy government - big vaccination event a shambles with waiting time of several hours. Saying they cannot organise a bun fight in a bakery is an insult to the bakery!

And this :

‘Acting Covid-19 response minister Dr Ayesha Verrall deemed today's mass vaccination event the "Olympics of vaccination" and was confident health staff would claim gold.’

Gold? How the heck to claim gold when they are presented with dog turd organisation to deal with?
Although allowing walk-ins as well, a British mass vaccination event had queues in the morning - plain sailing in the afternoon. It sounds par for the course for that type of event. We do not live in routine times.

Queues Longer Than Glastonbury
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/twickenham-queues-covid-vaccine-b938120.html

Blue Skies
31-07-2021, 12:20 PM
British mass vaccination event had queues in the morning - plain sailing in the afternoon. It sounds par for the course for that type of event. We do not live in routine times.

Queues Longer Than Glastonbury
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/twickenham-queues-covid-vaccine-b938120.html




Agreed, when you look at the logistics of an operation of this size, the level of organisation required involving a medical procedure, the sheer numbers - several thousand people to move through per day, and combine that with the fickleness of human nature with some arriving early, some late, you would have to say that was a pretty good result esp for the first day.

It's a shame some people will moan and complain about anything (not referring to Balance but some who experienced delays while waiting for their free vaccination) when all those people involved in helping get hopefully over 16,000 people vaccinated this weekend deserve our thanks rather than condemnation.

Let's see how days 2 and 3 go.

fungus pudding
31-07-2021, 12:43 PM
Agreed, when you look at the logistics of an operation of this size, the level of organisation required involving a medical procedure, the sheer numbers - several thousand people to move through per day, and combine that with the fickleness of human nature with some arriving early, some late, you would have to say that was a pretty good result esp for the first day.

It's a shame some people will moan and complain about anything (not referring to Balance but some who experienced delays while waiting for their free vaccination) when all those people involved in helping get hopefully over 16,000 people vaccinated this weekend deserve our thanks rather than condemnation.

Let's see how days 2 and 3 go.

The vaccination is not free, as you claim. It's costing a fortune, albeit money well spent

Blue Skies
31-07-2021, 12:53 PM
The vaccination is not free, as you claim. It's costing a fortune, albeit money well spent



You can't be serious, suggesting ('as you claim') I'm claiming Pfizer is giving this country millions vaccine doses for free!

No,... to spell it out, just that the individual receiving their jab doesn't directly have to pay for it to get it. (yes indirectly through taxation if they are a taxpayer)

fungus pudding
31-07-2021, 01:04 PM
You can't be serious, suggesting ('as you claim') I'm claiming Pfizer is giving this country millions vaccine doses for free!

No,... to spell it out, just that the individual receiving their jab doesn't directly have to pay for it to get it. (yes indirectly through taxation if they are a taxpayer)

You can't be serious! I did not claim you had said Pfizer donated millions worth of vaccine. You simply made the absurd statement that vaccination costs nothing. At least you now acknowledge that it is hugely expensive. Well done.

Balance
31-07-2021, 02:11 PM
You can't be serious! I did not claim you had said Pfizer donated millions worth of vaccine. You simply made the absurd statement that vaccination costs nothing. At least you now acknowledge that it is hugely expensive. Well done.

Think about the hundreds of people waiting in the queue for hours to get their jabs - time is money.

Not that this government would know since they have delivered bugger all in 4 years on any of their big promises of affordable & plentiful housing, eradicating child poverty and so on & so forth.

Bjauck
31-07-2021, 04:21 PM
Think about the hundreds of people waiting in the queue for hours to get their jabs - time is money.

Not that this government would know since they have delivered bugger all in 4 years on any of their big promises of affordable & plentiful housing, eradicating child poverty and so on & so forth. To be fair, the slogan Labour possibly borrowed from an over 80’s exercise group “Let’s Keep Moving” doesn’t commit to a fast speed or any particular direction for travel. So it could be around in circles ;)
https://www.labour.org.nz/

You can join Labour and join their movement. Maybe there will be a movement each day?