Labour govt 2020-23

[Balance]

To be fair, the slogan Labour possibly borrowed from an over 80’s exercise group “Let’s Keep Moving” doesn’t commit to a fast speed or any particular direction for travel. So it could be around in circles ;)
https://www.labour.org.nz/

You can join Labour and join their movement. Maybe there will be a movement each day?

For sure there motion each day in the Labour ranks - they are so full of BS. That movement is necessary! Even they can hold only so much of it.

[dobby41]

Think about the hundreds of people waiting in the queue for hours to get their jabs - time is money.



'Queue for hours'? There was a 1 hr delay which was caught up by 3pm.
And today all went well.
Not that I'd expect you to appreciate that - you only look for the negative.
About time you took another break - you are getting unbalanced again.

[Balance]

'Queue for hours'? There was a 1 hr delay which was caught up by 3pm.
And today all went well.
Not that I'd expect you to appreciate that - you only look for the negative.
About time you took another break - you are getting unbalanced again.

According to the organisers - that’s what you choose to believe. We know the track record of the vaccine program - misinformation and straight out lies.

Months to prepare for the event and they still stuffed it up - scrambling to get people to join the vaccination, missed by a country mile the intended Maori & Pacific Island community groups targeted and then, on the day - shambles until it was sorted out late in the afternoon.

Bluntly, dobby41, this government has so very successfully indoctrinate you (& a big portion of the public) to accept & not question failures and substandard performance from them. Kiwibuild is of course the best example of how bad it really is.

I know who I prefer to believe.

[dobby41]

According to the organisers - that’s what you choose to believe. We know the track record of the vaccine program - misinformation and straight out lies.

Months to prepare for the event and they still stuffed it up - scrambling to get people to join the vaccination, missed by a country mile the intended Maori & Pacific Island community groups targeted and then, on the day - shambles until it was sorted out late in the afternoon.

Bluntly, dobby41, this government has so very successfully indoctrinate you (& a big portion of the public) to accept & not question failures and substandard performance from them. Kiwibuild is of course the best example of how bad it really is.

I know who I prefer to believe.
Actually, in the end, it was too successful.
The delays that built up at the start were due to people arriving way too early - they were too keen.
You don't believe that the delays were sorted by 3pm and I wouldn't expect you to - you would only believe something very negative.
I'm sure this has been a huge learning exercise and will make future events even more successful.

You are so opposed to the current Govt that you choose to believe your negative view in spite of any contrary evidence.
Bluntly, Balance, you are unbalanced again.

Many, myself included, do question this Govt but we are just not as rabidly opposed as you.
Maybe we should have followed Aussie (more deaths recently), or Taiwan (1.6% vaccinated and a big spurt of deaths recently)?

[Balance]

Actually, in the end, it was too successful.
The delays that built up at the start were due to people arriving way too early - they were too keen.
You don't believe that the delays were sorted by 3pm and I wouldn't expect you to - you would only believe something very negative.
I'm sure this has been a huge learning exercise and will make future events even more successful.

You are so opposed to the current Govt that you choose to believe your negative view in spite of any contrary evidence.
Bluntly, Balance, you are unbalanced again.

Many, myself included, do question this Govt but we are just not as rabidly opposed as you.
Maybe we should have followed Aussie (more deaths recently), or Taiwan (1.6% vaccinated and a big spurt of deaths recently)?

The indoctrination obviously works!

Vaccine availability & program - front of the queue to last of the queue. But it's now reset and it's okay - because Cindy says so.

10,000 new homes a year from Kiwibuild but scrapped because less than 1,000 was built in the first 3 years! So it's a reset and it's okay - because they are learning!

You choose to swallow BS and BS you become, dobby41. Enjoy.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I see big news today that Cynical Cindy is going to apologise for the ‘Dawn Raids’ - which started under the Norman Kirk government and targeted illegal overstayers.
The ‘apology for the Dawn Raids’ was reported with banner headlines a few weeks ago, along with much fanfare and hoopla.
So is this a monthly thing now? Every month the government apologises for the ‘Dawn Raids’?

[Logen Ninefingers]

————————

The family members of the first Pacific people to be Dawn raided covered Jacinda Ardern in mats, and as a gesture of forgiveness have hugged her and welcomed her with open arms.

Audio recorded from the Dawn Raids is being played. Dogs are barking, babies are crying, doors are being knocked on. The soundtrack is called the Forgiveness Ceremony.

24 minutes ago
Tears are flowing freely from many at Town Hall.
The prime minister is covered in traditional mats as the sounds of a wailing woman is heard and the ocean is heard.

37 minutes ago
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has arrived at the Auckland Town Hall.
War chants and cries can be heard throughout the hall. It’s a big day for the Pasifika community.
Emotions are high, some guests are wiping away tears as the Cook Island drums are beaten. It’s taken almost 50 years for this day to arrive.

———————

[dobby41]

I see big news today that Cynical Cindy is going to apologise for the ‘Dawn Raids’ - which started under the Norman Kirk government and targeted illegal overstayers.
The ‘apology for the Dawn Raids’ was reported with banner headlines a few weeks ago, along with much fanfare and hoopla.
So is this a monthly thing now? Every month the government apologises for the ‘Dawn Raids’?

That is old news - signalled a month or 3 back. Where have you been?
Yip - started under Kirk but then stopped.
Muldoon did the usual National thing of campaigning on being hard on this, that or the other and when they won at the end of '74.
The following year Nat went harder on the 'dawn raids'. It targeted illegal overstayers of certain ethnicities (not all overstayers) as brown skins were easier to differentiate than the rest.
A shameful time for NZ really.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125524870/the-dawn-raids-explained-what-drove-the-government-to-target-pasifika-people

[Balance]

I see big news today that Cynical Cindy is going to apologise for the ‘Dawn Raids’ - which started under the Norman Kirk government and targeted illegal overstayers.
The ‘apology for the Dawn Raids’ was reported with banner headlines a few weeks ago, along with much fanfare and hoopla.
So is this a monthly thing now? Every month the government apologises for the ‘Dawn Raids’?

NZ was a very different place in the dark days of the 70s snd 80s.

Who can forget the police not only closing both eyes to the brutalising of the Springbok tour protestors by racist tour supporters, and then joining in the brutalisation themselves when the protestors managed to stop one game from going ahead.

Sadly for NZ, the reputation of the police has never recovered from their behaviour & conduct during the tour.

So can we expect an apology soon from the government for the actions of the police then?

Guess it comes down to whether Cindy and the Labour incompetents see if there are votes in it for them.

[777]

Sadly for NZ, the reputation of the police has never recovered from their behaviour & conduct during the tour.


What absolute rubbish. You dream up a lot of the proverbial.

[Balance]

What absolute rubbish. You dream up a lot of the proverbial.

Facts are facts.

Which side of the tour were you supporting?

I am proud to say I marched with the protestors.

[ynot]

That is old news - signalled a month or 3 back. Where have you been?
Yip - started under Kirk but then stopped.
Muldoon did the usual National thing of campaigning on being hard on this, that or the other and when they won at the end of '74.
The following year Nat went harder on the 'dawn raids'. It targeted illegal overstayers of certain ethnicities (not all overstayers) as brown skins were easier to differentiate than the rest.
A shameful time for NZ really.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125524870/the-dawn-raids-explained-what-drove-the-government-to-target-pasifika-people
They were overstayers, they broke the law, they were aware of the consequences. Are you saying we should have chased them around Ponsonby with wet bus tickets.

[Bjauck]

Facts are facts.

Which side of the tour were you supporting?

I am proud to say I marched with the protestors.

I was young at the time but the class teacher at school said the protestors were communists and professional demonstrators so tough police force was needed to protect the rugby players. That was in response to another pupil asking why the police punched a group of clowns.

You don't mess with the national religion without being kicked by police. I doubt there will be an apology.

Meurant hid clown-bashing cophttps://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/meurant-hid-clown-bashing-cop/OPSOPEALGUUDP5GA7IFKTNXYGU/

[Balance]

They were overstayers, they broke the law, they were aware of the consequences. Are you saying we should have chased them around Ponsonby with wet bus tickets.

Not wet bus tickets but amnesty - this government would treat them with kindness. Not their fault they overstayed - it’s the fault of the racist laws of the country.

[777]

Facts are facts.

Which side of the tour were you supporting?

I am proud to say I marched with the protestors.

Nothing to do with whether I was for or against the tour. I commented on the part of your post that was included in my post. Read before you post. Comprehension 101.

[Balance]

Nothing to do with whether I was for or against the tour. I commented on the part of your post that was included in my post. Read before you post. Comprehension 101.

Everything to do with whether you were for or against the tour.

Respect for the police went out the window in a big way because of their thuggery & perceived support of the repugnant pro-Apartheid springboks.

So were you for or against the tour?

[ynot]

Not wet bus tickets but amnesty - this government would treat them with kindness. Not their fault they overstayed - it’s the fault of the racist laws of the country.
Exactly, wokeism is a FREE bus ticket to commit any activity you want to with no consequences.

[dobby41]

They were overstayers, they broke the law, they were aware of the consequences. Are you saying we should have chased them around Ponsonby with wet bus tickets.

They were and should have been dealt with under the law.
Of course, they were only about 60% of the overstayers - the other 40% weren't brown so harder to target and weren't door knocked.
Remember, when the police knocked on the doors they didn't know for sure that an overstayer was there, they suspected that their cousins etc were harbouring them.
It was racial profiling at its' worst.

[BDL]

The "other" over stayers weren't causing trouble in Auckland like these ones were could have something to do with it.

[fungus pudding]

The "other" over stayers weren't causing trouble in Auckland like these ones were could have something to do with it.

And they weren't colour coded for convenience.

[dobby41]

The "other" over stayers weren't causing trouble in Auckland like these ones were could have something to do with it.

Causing trouble?
Many of those getting picked up were hiding, not causing 'trouble'.
Maybe the 'trouble' you are thinking about was the, so-called, 'Polynesian Panthers' who were fighting for what eventually happened - the Govt dropped the tactic.

[dobby41]

According to the organisers - that’s what you choose to believe. We know the track record of the vaccine program - misinformation and straight out lies.


They met the target for the vaccination event - only you would see that as a failure.
You have done a wonderful job of indoctrinating yourself with your rabid hate.
Time for you to step back and get some balance.

[ynot]

They were and should have been dealt with under the law.
Of course, they were only about 60% of the overstayers - the other 40% weren't brown so harder to target and weren't door knocked.
Remember, when the police knocked on the doors they didn't know for sure that an overstayer was there, they suspected that their cousins etc were harbouring them.
It was racial profiling at its' worst.

Had the Pacific Island community been up front and stood up to be counted as they should have, no searching would have been necessary. They instigated the problem.

[dobby41]

Had the Pacific Island community been up front and stood up to be counted as they should have, no searching would have been necessary. They instigated the problem.

Your take but not reality - how about the other 40%?
They didn't stand up and weren't targeted.
Can you explain why only the Polynesians were targeted?

[BDL]

They were the ones causing trouble. People were getting sick of it.

[fungus pudding]

They were the ones causing trouble. People were getting sick of it.

Who are 'they'?

[Bjauck]

They were the ones causing trouble. People were getting sick of it. According to some, I thought it was the moaning British immigrants in NZ legitimately who were causing the trouble then.

I guess when the economy was doing well, the government had turned a blind eye to overstayers?

[Blue Skies]

Although the slow roll out of the nation's vaccination program is certainly cause for alarm & criticism, I think we can safely tick off the mass vaccination event in South Auckland over the weekend achieved its goal & was a success. !5,500 people given the vaccine with most people happy. Congratulations to the organisers, let's keep it going.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/08/mass-covid-19-vaccination-event-hailed-as-huge-success-by-organisers.html

[Balance]

Although the slow roll out of the nation's vaccination program is certainly cause for alarm & criticism, I think we can safely tick off the mass vaccination event in South Auckland over the weekend achieved its goal & was a success. !5,500 people given the vaccine with most people happy. Congratulations to the organisers, let's keep it going.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/08/mass-covid-19-vaccination-event-hailed-as-huge-success-by-organisers.html

According to the organizers.

Pass the Tui.

[dobby41]

According to the organizers.

Pass the Tui.

Away on Planet Balance different things are happening.

You know different - or you want it to be different?

[Balance]

Away on Planet Balance different things are happening.

You know different - or you want it to be different?

Front of the queue to last in the queue.

I rest my case as to who to believe.

[dobby41]

Front of the queue to last in the queue.

I rest my case as to who to believe.

Conflation of issues - this was about the vaccination event.
Your mind is wandering - take a break.

[Balance]

Conflation of issues - this was about the vaccination event.
Your mind is wandering - take a break.

Same government with the same spin merchants.

Here’s post to put some perspective on how very very successful the mass vaccination event was :


Started reading it and got to the 3rd para before I gave up. The Government had to send out 144,000 invites to fill 15,500 slots at the so called max vaccination event this weekend, aimed solely at maori and pasifika people in South Auckland.

[dobby41]

Same government with the same spin merchants.

Here’s post to put some perspective on how very very successful the mass vaccination event was :

144,000 invites and 15,500 takers - what does that say about whom?
As I said before, that is very disappointing.
I expect there will be something to learn from that, maybe you should offer your help since you have all the answers.

They said that they'd give 15,500 vaccinations and they did with few issues. Anyone who thought that there would be no issues is a dreamer and a fool!

Now they just need lots more 'events', a lot of vaccinations to get through in the next 20 weeks!

[Balance]

144,000 invites and 15,500 takers - what does that say about whom?
As I said before, that is very disappointing.
I expect there will be something to learn from that, maybe you should offer your help since you have all the answers.

They said that they'd give 15,500 vaccinations and they did with few issues. Anyone who thought that there would be no issues is a dreamer and a fool!

Now they just need lots more 'events', a lot of vaccinations to get through in the next 20 weeks!

No - they just need to get all the GPS, medical centres & pharmacies involved (like with the annual flu jabs) as other countries have done. Will be all done in 2 months if vaccines are available.

There are 5,500 GPs in NZ - all trained and perfectly capable of administering the jabs.

My doctor friend in Singapore had been putting through 60 vaccine jabs per day since April. Likewise, her colleagues.

5,500 x 60 jabs x 30 days = 9.9m jabs

Done!

[iceman]

Here is a good vaccinations progress comparison with Denmark which has a very similar population to NZ:

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-vaccine-data#daily

https://covidvax.live/location/dnk

[Zaphod]

No - they just need to get all the GPS, medical centres & pharmacies involved (like with the annual flu jabs) as other countries have done. Will be all done in 2 months if vaccines are available.

There are 5,500 GPs in NZ - all trained and perfectly capable of administering the jabs.

My doctor friend in Singapore had been putting through 60 vaccine jabs per day since April. Likewise, her colleagues.

5,500 x 60 jabs x 30 days = 9.9m jabs

Done!

Part of that success in Singapore is the implementation of restrictions for non vaccinated individuals. I've made mention of this in a post on the Coronavirus thread, just now.

[dobby41]

No - they just need to get all the GPS, medical centres & pharmacies involved (like with the annual flu jabs) as other countries have done. Will be all done in 2 months if vaccines are available.

There are 5,500 GPs in NZ - all trained and perfectly capable of administering the jabs.

My doctor friend in Singapore had been putting through 60 vaccine jabs per day since April. Likewise, her colleagues.

5,500 x 60 jabs x 30 days = 9.9m jabs

Done!
I do wonder how many are involved, how many haven't been allowed to be involved, and how many don't want to be involved.
I was left with the impression from some commentators that Pharmacies etc haven't been allowed to be involved but I found 2 local pharmacies can be booked so, obviously, they are involved.

[Blue Skies]

No - they just need to get all the GPS, medical centres & pharmacies involved (like with the annual flu jabs) as other countries have done. Will be all done in 2 months if vaccines are available.

There are 5,500 GPs in NZ - all trained and perfectly capable of administering the jabs.

My doctor friend in Singapore had been putting through 60 vaccine jabs per day since April. Likewise, her colleagues.

5,500 x 60 jabs x 30 days = 9.9m jabs

Done!



Might not have quite all the information there & be quite so simple B.
When recently getting another type of vaccination at my GP's (not Covid) the very experienced nurse giving the vaccination said due to the particular protocols around the handling of the Pfizer vaccine she would not be able to administer Covid vaccine until she had done the Pfizer vaccine course, & since she was flat out anyway in the General Practice, she was not interested.
So even though trained in administering all the current vaccines available in NZ (apart from Pfizer), you have to be trained in protocols specific to Pfizer vaccine, it's storage & handling.
Not sure if this a requirement by DHB's or Pfizer but probably Pfizer.

[jonu]

An example of where Ardern's hate speech laws will take us. People petitioning to stop a biological male competing as a woman have had it fall foul of hate speech.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/sport/olympics/petition-for-rule-change-on-transgender-weightlifter-removed-as-hate-speech/ar-AAMPczj?ocid=msedgntp

Peak stupid....here we come. I guess if my aunt had bollocks she'd be my uncle as the old saying goes.

[dobby41]

Peak stupid....here we come. I guess if my aunt had bollocks she'd be my uncle as the old saying goes.

She doesn't need bollocks to be your uncle - she just needs to decide that she identifies as your uncle and she is.
An interesting time to live in

[dobby41]

So even though trained in administering all the current vaccines available in NZ (apart from Pfizer), you have to be trained in protocols specific to Pfizer vaccine, it's storage & handling.
Not sure if this a requirement by DHB's or Pfizer but probably Pfizer.

According to the MinHealth there are around 10,000 trained vaccinators and 4,000 of them active.

[jonu]

She doesn't need bollocks to be your uncle - she just needs to decide that she identifies as your uncle and she is.
An interesting time to live in

Well that will be the case if Ardern and her woke brigade hold sway. When reason departs, idiocy rules.

[iceman]

Finally a little bit of logic from the PM. Nothing like the pressure of a bad poll eh !! https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300372310/covid19-nz-government-to-open-travel-corridor-with-tonga-samoa-and-vanuatu--allowing-seasonal-workers-to-skip-managed-isolation-stay

[dobby41]

Well that will be the case if Ardern and her woke brigade hold sway. When reason departs, idiocy rules.

It already is the case now.
It has been coming for a long time, longer than just the current Labour Govt.
It is happening around the world - think of Gender-neutral pronoun use. This started in Sweden in 2012, we are followers in this, not leaders.
I still struggle with 'they' as a singular pronoun.

[ynot]

She doesn't need bollocks to be your uncle - she just needs to decide that she identifies as your uncle and she is.
An interesting time to live in

So for all of human achievements, trials and tribulations this is what we have become. A watered down version of what man could have been. Like I have refered to previously, real men (and women) will be turning in their graves to see this rubbish.

[dobby41]

Finally a little bit of logic from the PM. Nothing like the pressure of a bad poll eh !! https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300372310/covid19-nz-government-to-open-travel-corridor-with-tonga-samoa-and-vanuatu--allowing-seasonal-workers-to-skip-managed-isolation-stay

Did they not say that changes were coming before the poll?
I do wonder, though, why some of these changes take so long. Tonga, Samoa, and Vanuatu have been covid free (in the community) forever.
The RSE workers are good for us and good for those countries (saves us giving more aid) and they are really 'immigration' which I always think of as very long-term imports.

Next will come changes for skilled workers.

[777]

Finally a little bit of logic from the PM. Nothing like the pressure of a bad poll eh !! https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300372310/covid19-nz-government-to-open-travel-corridor-with-tonga-samoa-and-vanuatu--allowing-seasonal-workers-to-skip-managed-isolation-stay

But will the immigration department cope with the applications?

[jonu]

It already is the case now.
It has been coming for a long time, longer than just the current Labour Govt.
It is happening around the world - think of Gender-neutral pronoun use. This started in Sweden in 2012, we are followers in this, not leaders.
I still struggle with 'they' as a singular pronoun.

It's the Emperor's New Clothes of our time. People will be silenced for speaking the truth. This gender identity nonsense is devoid of science, in fact its proponents do everything they can to keep science out of it. Madness. Western Culture is in serious trouble when such madness prevails. If the truth can be silenced for this, it will be silenced for anything that suits the purposes of those holding sway.

[dobby41]

So for all of human achievements, trials and tribulations this is what we have become. A watered down version of what man could have been. Like I have refered to previously, real men (and women) will be turning in their graves to see this rubbish.

I doubt we have become 'more gay' as the years have gone on - in the past, it was very hidden.
Around 3.5% of the population identify as LGBQ so, probably, 3.5% of people won't be turning in their graves.
Real men and women are people who can accept others for what they are, not how they fit their own view.

I remember a comment when the Homosexual Law Reform Bill was going through - they aren't making it compulsory!

[ynot]

I doubt we have become 'more gay' as the years have gone on - in the past, it was very hidden.
Around 3.5% of the population identify as LGBQ so, probably, 3.5% of people won't be turning in their graves.
Real men and women are people who can accept others for what they are, not how they fit their own view.

I remember a comment when the Homosexual Law Reform Bill was going through - they aren't making it compulsory!
Dobby, we are talking about a man, built like a man, who thinks it is acceptable and fair to compete in sport against a woman. Pathetic in my view.

[jonu]

I doubt we have become 'more gay' as the years have gone on - in the past, it was very hidden.
Around 3.5% of the population identify as LGBQ so, probably, 3.5% of people won't be turning in their graves.
Real men and women are people who can accept others for what they are, not how they fit their own view.

I remember a comment when the Homosexual Law Reform Bill was going through - they aren't making it compulsory!

Remember the mantra being continuously spouted that 10% were gay? It was a complete fiction.

Remember the mantra "Born this way"? Turns out to be wrong too. The sequencing of the Human Genome shows no evidence for it. There is a statistics based school of thought that absent fathers and dominating mothers maybe a factor, but that can't be spoken of. It must be silenced. Doesn't fit the narrative.

[Balance]

I do wonder how many are involved, how many haven't been allowed to be involved, and how many don't want to be involved.
I was left with the impression from some commentators that Pharmacies etc haven't been allowed to be involved but I found 2 local pharmacies can be booked so, obviously, they are involved.

My doctor has been asking MOH when his practice of four GPs can start vaccinating their patients & client base - have not heard back as of last week.

Meanwhile, another clinic in Pakuranga (Eastern suburb) where my friend works as a nurse will start providing the jabs from next week.

Go figure.

[justakiwi]

Do your homework before making statements like this. Your ignorance is showing.


Dobby, we are talking about a man, built like a man, who thinks it is acceptable and fair to compete in sport against a woman. Pathetic in my view.

[Bjauck]

It already is the case now.
It has been coming for a long time, longer than just the current Labour Govt.
It is happening around the world - think of Gender-neutral pronoun use. This started in Sweden in 2012, we are followers in this, not leaders.
I still struggle with 'they' as a singular pronoun.

I think I have always in some circumstances used the plural instead of the singular third person - at least in informal English. I may refer to someone without referring to their gender. For example: My co-worker was funny; they told a wonderful joke. I am comfortable using "they" for an individual but I already tend to use the plural for a collective noun. An interesting item from American Psychologists: https://apastyle.apa.org/blog/singular-they

Other languages often use alternative singular or plural second person pronouns when referring to individuals depending on whether formality or familiarity was required.

English used the singular "thou" until settling on the plural "you" for all singular use as well. The Queen in English has (in)famously used the first person plural pronoun "we" when referring to herself but she does have two birthdays!

[ynot]

Do your homework before making statements like this. Your ignorance is showing.

What is incorrect with my statement.

[Bjauck]

What is incorrect with my statement.
Laurel Hubbard is a woman. She transitioned about 8 years ago. She was born male but when she was an adult she undertook gender reassignment.

The dispute basically relates to whether "people who have undergone male puberty retain significant advantages in power and strength even after taking medication to suppress their testosterone levels." and consequently whether it is fair for other female competitors.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/05/trans-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-set-to-make-history-at-tokyo-olympics

[jonu]

Laurel Hubbard is a woman. She transitioned about 8 years ago. She was born male but when she was an adult she undertook gender reassignment.

The dispute basically relates to whether "people who have undergone male puberty retain significant advantages in power and strength even after taking medication to suppress their testosterone levels." and consequently whether it is fair for other female competitors.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/05/trans-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-set-to-make-history-at-tokyo-olympics

Laurel Hubbard can use whatever name suits. Laurel Hubbard is a biological male who takes drugs to suppress male hormones and has had surgery that would have been considered unethical previously, and no doubt after a raft of lawsuits will once again be deemed medically unethical.

[justakiwi]

Everything.


What is incorrect with my statement.

[justakiwi]

You are an ignorant, arrogant individual. You have no clue what being transgender means. I pity you.


Laurel Hubbard can use whatever name suits. Laurel Hubbard is a biological male who takes drugs to suppress male hormones and has had surgery that would have been considered unethical previously, and no doubt after a raft of lawsuits will once again be deemed medically unethical.

[jonu]

You are an ignorant, arrogant individual. You have no clue what being transgender means. I pity you.

Start dealing with facts and not emotion justakiwi. Is Laurel Hubbard a biological male or not?

[Balance]

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/audio/arthur-grimes-government-engineering-a-well-being-disaster/

Intended consequence of an inept & incompetent government - shutting first home buyers and future generations out of the housing market.

[justakiwi]

It's not rocket science. Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female or something else.

Your genitals alone, do not make you male or female. This is the bit people like you choose not to understand. You won't even try. Some of us, however, are able to look at the situation from a different perspective. We are able to imagine what it would be like to wake up every morning, look in the mirror, and see a physical body that does not match who we are inside our very being. Some of us have the ability to understand how traumatic that must be.

It seems to me that the ones who are the most vocal about other people's gender identity, sexual orientation or whatever else, are projecting their own insecurities. Are you that insecure in your own gender identity or sexuality, that you are incapable of comprehending someone else's?




Start dealing with facts and not emotion justakiwi. Is Laurel Hubbard a biological male or not?

[ynot]

It's not rocket science. Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female or something else.

Your genitals alone, do not make you male or female. This is the bit people like you choose not to understand. You won't even try. Some of us, however, are able to look at the situation from a different perspective. We are able to imagine what it would be like to wake up every morning, look in the mirror, and see a physical body that does not match who we are inside our very being. Some of us have the ability to understand how traumatic that must be.

It seems to me that the ones who are the most vocal about other people's gender identity, sexual orientation or whatever else, are projecting their own insecurities. Are you that insecure in your own gender identity or sexuality, that you are incapable of comprehending someone else's?

Thats quite an assumption on your part mate.

[justakiwi]

It was a question, not an assumption.


Thats quite an assumption on your part mate.

[peetter]

It's not rocket science. Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female or something else.

Your genitals alone, do not make you male or female. This is the bit people like you choose not to understand. You won't even try. Some of us, however, are able to look at the situation from a different perspective. We are able to imagine what it would be like to wake up every morning, look in the mirror, and see a physical body that does not match who we are inside our very being. Some of us have the ability to understand how traumatic that must be.

It seems to me that the ones who are the most vocal about other people's gender identity, sexual orientation or whatever else, are projecting their own insecurities. Are you that insecure in your own gender identity or sexuality, that you are incapable of comprehending someone else's?


Males have higher musle mass, different build, bigger hearts and many more physical advantages over females. If somebody transitions after 30, they shouldn't be competing in womans category. It is not fair because they went through 30 years of 1000 times higher testosteron levels than any other woman.

If you can't see this, you're the one blind to reality.

[justakiwi]

Which is one of the reasons young transgender people should be able to begin hormone treatment (if they wish) before the onset of puberty. But of course, so many "well-meaning" adults and politicians, seem hell bent on removing that option. If transgender people were supported and assisted to begin hormone treatment before the onset of puberty, the issues around sports, would become a moot point.

It is so easy for those who are not transgender, to judge and criticize. Nothing I say will change your opinion, but someone has to try.




Males have higher musle mass, different build, bigger hearts and many more physical advantages over females. If somebody transitions after 30, they shouldn't be competing in womans category. It is not fair because they went through 30 years of 1000 times higher testosteron levels than any other woman.

If you can't see this, you're the one blind to reality.

[peetter]

Which is one of the reasons young transgender people should be able to begin hormone treatment (if they wish) before the onset of puberty. But of course, so many "well-meaning" adults and politicians, seem hell bent on removing that option. If transgender people were supported and assisted to begin hormone treatment before the onset of puberty, the issues around sports, would become a moot point.

It is so easy for those who are not transgender, to judge and criticize. Nothing I say will change your opinion, but someone has to try.

It would be so easy right, if only there weren't parents who brainwash their children into thinking they are trans. Or highly suggestible children that think it's cool. Just use hormone treatments before the child even experiences the full potential of their body and hormones on their personality... We don't let children drive, drink, vote because they are not mentaly ready, but permanently affecting developmnet of the body is something we should let them decide.

[iceman]

Do your homework before making statements like this. Your ignorance is showing.
Justakiwi. I’ve liked your style and determination a lot on these forums, as you know. But you sometimes come across as very intolerable of views different to your own , like you do in this discussion, often lowering yourself to little other than nasty name calling or personal attacks. Not cool

In any case, as it turns out, Laurel Hubbard could not make it on the World stage as any gender, so the discussion luckily won’t go to the next level.

She had a go and failed.

[justakiwi]

............................


It would be so easy right, if only there weren't parents who brainwash their children into thinking they are trans. Or highly suggestible children that think it's cool. Just use hormone treatments before the child even experiences the full potential of their body and hormones on their personality... We don't let children drive, drink, vote because they are not mentaly ready, but permanently affecting developmnet of the body is something we should let them decide.

[justakiwi]

It is not "different views" I object to. It is views based on ignorance or misinformation that I am intolerant of. Funny how it is acceptable for others to make judgmental, nasty comments about transgender people, but it is "not cool" when I call them out for it. Double standards as usual. But you are entitled to your opinion.


Justakiwi. I’ve liked your style and determination a lot on these forums, as you know. But you sometimes come across as very intolerable of views different to your own , like you do in this discussion, often lowering yourself to little other than nasty name calling or personal attacks. Not cool

[iceman]

Double standards as usual. But you are entitled to your opinion.

Wow. Like I said. Not really cool Justakiwi and more than a little surprising. Over & out

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/housing-crisis-response-should-mirror-massive-post-war-effort-economist-shamubeel-eaqub/ONJFPZRZJKFQLJGYMUL44WQGUI/

Only way to fix the housing crisis. The only way.

[justakiwi]

I don't believe my reply to your post was in any way rude or disrespectful. I accepted that you are entitled to your opinion, but pointed out the double standards at play. Why is it OK for others to post disrespectful, personal, judgmental comments about trans people (and the parents of trans kids), but my replies to them are deemed "not Ok?" My comment about " double standards as usual" was a general statement about many of the discussions here. I was not implying that you personally have double standards. If that is how you saw it, my apologies. It was not my intention.





Wow. Like I said. Not really cool Justakiwi and more than a little surprising. Over & out

[Bjauck]

Which is one of the reasons young transgender people should be able to begin hormone treatment (if they wish) before the onset of puberty. But of course, so many "well-meaning" adults and politicians, seem hell bent on removing that option. If transgender people were supported and assisted to begin hormone treatment before the onset of puberty, the issues around sports, would become a moot point.... Wouldn't there be a big ethical minefield involved with undertaking medical intervention on the healthy body of a minor especially when considering that a child's sense of rationality and self also develops during puberty?

[Bjauck]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/housing-crisis-response-should-mirror-massive-post-war-effort-economist-shamubeel-eaqub/ONJFPZRZJKFQLJGYMUL44WQGUI/

Only way to fix the housing crisis. The only way.
Good housing becoming a human right? That won't happen in NZ even under a Labour Government with the array of vested interests to assail.

[peetter]

It is not "different views" I object to. It is views based on ignorance or misinformation that I am intolerant of. Funny how it is acceptable for others to make judgmental, nasty comments about transgender people, but it is "not cool" when I call them out for it. Double standards as usual. But you are entitled to your opinion.

No you're straight up saying your view is the only possible, everyone else is ignorant and misinformed.

[fungus pudding]

Good housing becoming a human right? That won't happen in NZ even under a Labour Government with the array of vested interests to assail.

Surely you mean 'especially under a Labour govt', who have demonstrated spectacularly an inability to acheive any of their goals or policies.

[dobby41]

Dobby, we are talking about a man, built like a man, who thinks it is acceptable and fair to compete in sport against a woman. Pathetic in my view.

Were we?
Not what I was replying to.
On that subject then, I struggle to accept that it is right also.
During the years that testosterone made the biggest changes to the person's body they were a man, so, as you say, are still built like a man even if they now have low testosterone.
I think it gives them an unfair physical advantage from years before even if they think like a woman.
In the end they bombed out.

[dobby41]

My doctor has been asking MOH when his practice of four GPs can start vaccinating their patients & client base - have not heard back as of last week.

Meanwhile, another clinic in Pakuranga (Eastern suburb) where my friend works as a nurse will start providing the jabs from next week.

Go figure.

In deed - go figure.
Facts missing maybe? Or maybe not.
It can be done as you say.
Locally we have 3 pharmacies now doing it (another started this week) and 1 medical centre.
Our own medical centre doesn't want to at the moment as they are already busy with the flu jab and other stuff.

[jonu]

It's not rocket science. Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female or something else.

Your genitals alone, do not make you male or female. This is the bit people like you choose not to understand. You won't even try. Some of us, however, are able to look at the situation from a different perspective. We are able to imagine what it would be like to wake up every morning, look in the mirror, and see a physical body that does not match who we are inside our very being. Some of us have the ability to understand how traumatic that must be.

It seems to me that the ones who are the most vocal about other people's gender identity, sexual orientation or whatever else, are projecting their own insecurities. Are you that insecure in your own gender identity or sexuality, that you are incapable of comprehending someone else's?

It most definitely is not rocket science. Science is the last thing trans proponents want to talk about. I see you didn't answer as to whether Laurel Hubbard is a biological male or not. Has something of an impact on athletic performance, the OLD male/female thingies.

Encouraging people in their delusion when they have a tough psychological problem to work through is extremely damaging. The trans proponents stance of advocating puberty blockers is an extreme form of child abuse.

[Bjauck]

Surely you mean 'especially under a Labour govt', who have demonstrated spectacularly an inability to acheive any of their goals or policies. No I think National would have an equal if not more forceful array of vested interests to accommodate. ACT's Seymour has pointed out that
that rights come with duties and I would also add costs. Labour, National and ACT no doubt recognise that given the importance of housing in NZ's household wealth, deciding where and on whom to shift the obligations and costs would probably make them unelectable

[Balance]

In deed - go figure.
Facts missing maybe? Or maybe not.
It can be done as you say.
Locally we have 3 pharmacies now doing it (another started this week) and 1 medical centre.
Our own medical centre doesn't want to at the moment as they are already busy with the flu jab and other stuff.

I will place my faith in my doctor telling me the truth than MOH anytime.

First in the queue to last in the queue - that's Chris Hipkins, MOH & Cindy. All spin & no delivery.

[justakiwi]

As someone who once worked in a job that was focused on the welfare of children, I can assure you that child abuse is the very LAST thing this is. By the way, I did answer your question, so read it again. I am bowing out of this debate now, but you be sure to have a lovely day.


It most definitely is not rocket science. Science is the last thing trans proponents want to talk about. I see you didn't answer as to whether Laurel Hubbard is a biological male or not. Has something of an impact on athletic performance, the OLD male/female thingies.

Encouraging people in their delusion when they have a tough psychological problem to work through is extremely damaging. The trans proponents stance of advocating puberty blockers is an extreme form of child abuse.

[jonu]

As someone who once worked in a job that was focused on the welfare of children, I can assure you that child abuse is the very LAST thing this is. By the way, I did answer your question, so read it again. I am bowing out of this debate now, but you be sure to have a lovely day.

Well I went and read it again justakiwi, and no, you did not answer whether Laurel Hubbard is a biological male or not. You did use the psychobabble language of the pro-trans stance based on an "internal sense".

Here's a hint. The chromosomes are a good place to start. XX equals biological female. Laurel Hubbard's XY equals biological male. These little suckers are the reason Hubbard will be taking drugs to alter/suppress hormone levels.

Pointing out facts like this is likely to fall foul of Ardern's hate speech laws. Wake up NZ. The Emperor has no clothes.

[Bjauck]

Well I went and read it again justakiwi, and no, you did not answer whether Laurel Hubbard is a biological male or not. You did use the psychobabble language of the pro-trans stance based on an "internal sense".

Here's a hint. The chromosomes are a good place to start. XX equals biological female. Laurel Hubbard's XY equals biological male. These little suckers are the reason Hubbard will be taking drugs to alter/suppress hormone levels.

Pointing out facts like this is likely to fall foul of Ardern's hate speech laws. Wake up NZ. The Emperor has no clothes. As you say chromosomes are a good place to start. Biological sexuality however is more than just chromosomes.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

[dobby41]

Well I went and read it again justakiwi, and no, you did not answer whether Laurel Hubbard is a biological male or not. You did use the psychobabble language of the pro-trans stance based on an "internal sense".


It depends on what you are looking for.
If you are discussing this in the sporting context then biology may be important (muscle built, levers etc).
If you are talking about how a person identifies then why does biology matter?
I expect it matters to you because you are a fundamentalist - men are men if they are born with testes, and never it shall change.
If you think like that then you are a century or 2 behind the times.

Gay people have been around forever!
It seems that we are now making it more nuanced with the LGBTQ+ stuff.

[jonu]

As you say chromosomes are a good place to start. Biological sexuality however is more than just chromosomes.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

So says the trans writer of the article. There has been a concerted campaign of "studies" conducted by the trans intelligentsia. They are quick to quote them as peer reviewed, when in reality they review in amongst themselves and the studies seldom stack up to scrutiny, particularly with regards sample size and participation.

I'm happy to restate....XX equals female. XY equals male

[fungus pudding]

It depends on what you are looking for.
If you are discussing this in the sporting context then biology may be important (muscle built, levers etc).
If you are talking about how a person identifies then why does biology matter?
I expect it matters to you because you are a fundamentalist - men are men if they are born with testes, and never it shall change.
If you think like that then you are a century or 2 behind the times.

Gay people have been around forever!


Of course they have. But is an increasing percentage of the population now homosexual? Is it another of nature's ways of slowing population growth, along with the decreasing fertility rates throughout much of the world?

[dobby41]

I'm happy to restate....XX equals female. XY equals male

Biologically so.
Though how about someone with Turner syndrome - 1X, no Y?
Emotionally?
Does that not count?

[jonu]

Biologically so.
Though how about someone with Turner syndrome - 1X, no Y?
Emotionally?
Does that not count?

We were discussing this in relation to Laurel Hubbard and the ability for a biological male to compete alongside biological females. I wouldn't venture an opinion on "Turner Syndrome".

[ynot]

We were discussing this in relation to Laurel Hubbard and the ability for a biological male to compete alongside biological females. I wouldn't venture an opinion on "Turner Syndrome".
Goodness knows how the Olympic Committee ever condoned Hubbard to enter the woman's competition. What has happened to common sense.

[dobby41]

We were discussing this in relation to Laurel Hubbard and the ability for a biological male to compete alongside biological females. I wouldn't venture an opinion on "Turner Syndrome".

Fair enough - in that context, I gave my opinion in post #2079

[Bjauck]

I'm happy to restate....XX equals female. XY equals male Genetically. For biological gender, it is a factor and the starting point.
Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistichttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

[jonu]

Genetically. For biological gender, it is a factor and the starting point.
Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistichttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

Intersex is not trans, hence the i in the alphabet soup.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/governments-785-million-auckland-harbour-cycle-bridge-vast-majority-opposed-poll-shows/RLLTBIJGGHI6V36XE3B6R7WAAI/

Now watch Cindy backtrack on the cycle bridge just as she backtracked on CGT.

Mistress of spin has already ordered her taxpayer paid army of BS artists/spin merchants to come up with a reason why.

[ynot]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/governments-785-million-auckland-harbour-cycle-bridge-vast-majority-opposed-poll-shows/RLLTBIJGGHI6V36XE3B6R7WAAI/

Now watch Cindy backtrack on the cycle bridge just as she backtracked on CGT.

Mistress of spin has already ordered her taxpayer paid army of BS artists/spin merchants to come up with a reason why.
The hole she's digging herself is getting bigger. You can only wing it for so long.

[Balance]

The hole she's digging herself is getting bigger. You can only wing it for so long.

For the record, this is Cindy’s big announcement in June on the bike bridge.

It’s all go and funding has been provided.

Oh dear oh dear - what is the mistress of spin going to do now!!!???

[Blue Skies]

The bike bridge was a crazy idea when there's so many higher priorities , & few MP's even looked convinced. Where did it come from?

Cyclists can already cross the harbour from many points around the North Shore by throwing their bikes on ferries from Hobsonville, Beachhaven, Birkenhead, Bayswater, Devonport, Whangaparoa plus Half Moon Bay in the Eastern suburbs. (not that many commuters do)

[dobby41]

The bike bridge was a crazy idea when there's so many higher priorities , & few MP's even looked convinced. Where did it come from?

Cyclists can already cross the harbour from many points around the North Shore by throwing their bikes on ferries from Hobsonville, Beachhaven, Birkenhead, Bayswater, Devonport, Whangaparoa plus Half Moon Bay in the Eastern suburbs. (not that many commuters do)

Build a tunnel, then allow cyclists to use 1 or 2 lanes of the bridge.
In the meantime but on some ferries every 10-20 minutes.
Job done.

The problem with politics is that if politicians make a bad decision and backtrack to the right decision some people consider them as weak.
I find it weird that people aren't happy to get what they wanted. Some people are just unbalanced.

[Bjauck]

The bike bridge was a crazy idea when there's so many higher priorities , & few MP's even looked convinced. Where did it come from?

Cyclists can already cross the harbour from many points around the North Shore by throwing their bikes on ferries from Hobsonville, Beachhaven, Birkenhead, Bayswater, Devonport, Whangaparoa plus Half Moon Bay in the Eastern suburbs. (not that many commuters do)

I would much rather my taxes were spent on a cycle bridge than being put towards salary increases for nurses and teachers. How dare they try to aspire to saving for house deposits to establish homes in the towns where they work. House prices up about 30% in a year. /sarcasm

That this cycle bridge was even contemplated speaks volumes as to priorities.

[fungus pudding]

I would much rather my taxes were spent on a cycle bridge than being put towards salary increases for nurses and teachers. How dare they try to aspire to saving for house deposits to establish homes in the towns where they work. House prices up about 30% in a year. /sarcasm

That this cycle bridge was even contemplated speaks volumes as to priorities.

Quite right, and will prove to be a huge flop - unless we see a subsidised bicycle purchase scheme - or tax funded bicycles issued to all citizens. C'mon Labour - get in behind that - 'bikes for all', it's all part of being kind!

[fungus pudding]

It's really difficult to understand why labour didn't include the Maori party as a coaltion partner.

12804

[Getty]

The bike bridge was a crazy idea when there's so many higher priorities , & few MP's even looked convinced. Where did it come from?

Cyclists can already cross the harbour from many points around the North Shore by throwing their bikes on ferries from Hobsonville, Beachhaven, Birkenhead, Bayswater, Devonport, Whangaparoa plus Half Moon Bay in the Eastern suburbs. (not that many commuters do)

The cycle bridge had to be a weird proposal, when even Julie Ann Genter expressed doubts about it!

[Balance]

It's really difficult to understand why labour didn't include the Maori party as a coaltion partner.



Gibberish use of language disguised as Maori-speak to get away with incoherence garbage.

She was obviously addressing just token Maori speaking voters and the do gooders.

[Balance]

The cycle bridge had to be a weird proposal, when even Julie Ann Genter expressed doubts about it!

Have taxpayers’ money but no money sense - just spending for political gains, that’s Cindy & her idiotic team of incompetents.

[Logen Ninefingers]

It's really difficult to understand why labour didn't include the Maori party as a coaltion partner.

12804

Labour rely heavily on the Maori vote & the double-dipping boost that comes with them having a strangle-hold on a bunch of race based 'extra' seats, plus getting the paty vote of Maori as well.
Labour therefore wants to be seen a the 'true' Maori party...the last thing they want to do is legitimise the Maori party and see them make further inroads on 'their' base.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Labour have cooked the housing goose and sealed our fate. Total inaction and non-delivery on 100,000 KiwiBuild houses, total inaction and non-delivery on rampant credit creation and speculation....and now we have inflation on a tear and a tight labour market......and suddenly Robbo is giving the Reserve Bank extra tools and bringing in RSE workers. All far too late, as usual.

[Balance]

This is the sort of misfits masquerading as ministers in Cindy's team of incompetents. And clearly, racist to the core against pakeha.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/07/national-leader-judith-collins-calls-for-police-minister-poto-williams-sacking.html

Williams was asked if she agreed with a statement issued by the group People Against Prisons Aotearoa after Police Commissioner Andrew Coster confirmed ARTs would not go ahead.

"We are committed to disarming, defunding, and abolishing the bloodstained, racist institution of policing and replacing it with community justice," spokesperson Emilie Rākete said at the time.

Williams said she was "not giving them the time of day", referring to People Against Prisons Aotearoa's statement, but she did not condemn Rākete's words either.

No wonder the silent majority has had enough and it will be interesting to see how far Cindy will continue to stand alongside such racist ministers as she has in her cabinet.

[dobby41]

This is the sort of misfits masquerading as ministers in Cindy's team of incompetents. And clearly, racist to the core against pakeha.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/07/national-leader-judith-collins-calls-for-police-minister-poto-williams-sacking.html

Williams was asked if she agreed with a statement issued by the group People Against Prisons Aotearoa after Police Commissioner Andrew Coster confirmed ARTs would not go ahead.

"We are committed to disarming, defunding, and abolishing the bloodstained, racist institution of policing and replacing it with community justice," spokesperson Emilie Rākete said at the time.

Williams said she was "not giving them the time of day", referring to People Against Prisons Aotearoa's statement, but she did not condemn Rākete's words either.

No wonder the silent majority has had enough and it will be interesting to see how far Cindy will continue to stand alongside such racist ministers as she has in her cabinet.

Another dog whistle from Judith and you just lap it up.
Judith is the one who is trying to divide the country with her continual race-baiting.

Because she didn't condemn the word then she must be agreeing with them, even though she said she didn't?
That isn't the way the real world works.
What a joke of an argument.

[Balance]

Another dog whistle from Judith and you just lap it up.
Judith is the one who is trying to divide the country with her continual race-baiting.

Because she didn't condemn the word then she must be agreeing with them, even though she said she didn't?
That isn't the way the real world works.
What a joke of an argument.

Poto ‘I represent South Auckland Maoris & Pacific Islanders’ Williams had an opportunity to condemn the racist assertions by Rakete but chose not to.

We can all see the pattern of racist preference she is exhibiting so yup, this is how the real world views her actions. She is not only incompetent but blatantly racist.

You need to wake up from the Spin Mistress’ spell, dobby41 - for you & your family’s sake.

[iceman]

Poto ‘I represent South Auckland Maoris & Pacific Islanders’ Williams had an opportunity to condemn the racist assertions by Rakete but chose not to.

We can all see the pattern of racist preference she is exhibiting so yup, this is how the real world views her actions. She is not only incompetent but blatantly racist.

You need to wake up from the Spin Mistress’ spell, dobby41 - for you & your family’s sake.

I was honoured enough to see this Minister and her family on several occasions in Raro in the last couple of weeks and share some space with them on one occasion, but not words. I'm very pleased to report that her and her family didn't look quite as distressed as she claims her family is, after Judith's "put the genie back in the bottle” comments. I thought this was great news as apparently the mental health system can ill afford more families joining the waiting list.

Interestingly several locals told us they were so happy with our PM as she had paid the wage subsidy in CI while no flights were able to go in and had guaranteed them that noone would enter a plane to Raro without at least one negative COVID test prior to boarding.
I did not know that NZ was paying the wage subsidy up there but that is a great thing for Cindy & Grant to do. Money well spent.
But I do know that she simply has mislead them about the pre departure tests for travelers to the Cook Islands as no such thing happens.

[dobby41]

Interestingly several locals told us they were so happy with our PM as she had paid the wage subsidy in CI while no flights were able to go in and had guaranteed them that noone would enter a plane to Raro without at least one negative COVID test prior to boarding.
I did not know that NZ was paying the wage subsidy up there but that is a great thing for Cindy & Grant to do. Money well spent.
But I do know that she simply has mislead them about the pre departure tests for travelers to the Cook Islands as no such thing happens.
I would be careful who you believe - just because someone got the wrong end of the stick doesn't make it true.
You must know people get their understanding wrong all the time.

I was on a jury once and in delibrations we got to a point where there were 3 differing views on a piece of evidence. It was given to us again and immediately after there were only 2 views on what was just said.

[iceman]

I would be careful who you believe - just because someone got the wrong end of the stick doesn't make it true.
You must know people get their understanding wrong all the time.

I was on a jury once and in delibrations we got to a point where there were 3 differing views on a piece of evidence. It was given to us again and immediately after there were only 2 views on what was just said.

I agree dobby41. That is quite possible but I was surprised to hear the same thing from 5 or 6 different sources. Obviously many believe this to be true.

[dobby41]

I agree dobby41. That is quite possible but I was surprised to hear the same thing from 5 or 6 different sources. Obviously many believe this to be true.

Many believe that 5G makes you glow and that vaccination is wrong.
I have heard that from many sources.

[fungus pudding]

I agree dobby41. That is quite possible but I was surprised to hear the same thing from 5 or 6 different sources. Obviously many believe this to be true.

Even their Prime Minister believes it.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/barry-soper-why-kiwi-taxpayers-are-paying-covid-wage-subsidy-in-cook-islands/W6EW7JA5NXWH6MSAMVAXQUWUUU/

[dobby41]

Even their Prime Minister believes it.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/barry-soper-why-kiwi-taxpayers-are-paying-covid-wage-subsidy-in-cook-islands/W6EW7JA5NXWH6MSAMVAXQUWUUU/

The belief question was about people having at least 1 covid test before entering the Cooks - not the wage subsidy (which I had worked out some time ago).

[Blue Skies]

This is the sort of misfits masquerading as ministers in Cindy's team of incompetents. And clearly, racist to the core against pakeha.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/07/national-leader-judith-collins-calls-for-police-minister-poto-williams-sacking.html

Williams was asked if she agreed with a statement issued by the group People Against Prisons Aotearoa after Police Commissioner Andrew Coster confirmed ARTs would not go ahead.

"We are committed to disarming, defunding, and abolishing the bloodstained, racist institution of policing and replacing it with community justice," spokesperson Emilie Rākete said at the time.

Williams said she was "not giving them the time of day", referring to People Against Prisons Aotearoa's statement, but she did not condemn Rākete's words either.

No wonder the silent majority has had enough and it will be interesting to see how far Cindy will continue to stand alongside such racist ministers as she has in her cabinet.



With such startling revelations, thought ild better look deeper into this story.
What did I find, a Police Minister who could not have been more dismissive of this group, said she 'wouldn't give this organisation the time of day'. End of story.
But no surely there must be something more!

Actually yes, a reporter & media organisation desperate to make something out of nothing, provoke a reaction, tangle a minister up in a word soup (she wouldn't have a bar of it) , get a shock headline in the uber competitive world of info news.

If you look at the stories Newshub run, its descended into a total tabloid shock infotainment news outlet, purely ratings driven desperate to shore up massively falling advertising revenue.
Owned by US companies Oaktree Capital Management & OOH, fine if you like that sort of tabloid shock horror news but it's not exactly the most reliable source of good journalism based on sound research and critical thinking. If they could find a buyer at a decent price they would probably be very happy to off load it.

This was such a non story, & the risk is the more people cry wolf, the more people turn off & are likely in future to miss something which is important.

There's some irony (& humour) in Judith 'doing a good job' Collins faux outrage around her comment about William's being bottled were misinterpreted, but at same time she exploits every opportunity to misrepresent things others say.

The most important issues facing NZ at the moment in my view are getting NZ vaccinated & the housing crisis, the latter which National seem unable to offer any constructive solutions as too afraid of losing any more votes which they can ill afford.

[artemis]

.... The most important issues facing NZ at the moment in my view are getting NZ vaccinated & the housing crisis, the latter which National seem unable to offer any constructive solutions as too afraid of losing any more votes which they can ill afford.

Actually National have said that they would reverse most of Labour's recent housing policies. Looking at the numbers under Labour's watch, reversing seems a very constructive solution. Also Nicola Willis has proposed a 'Christchurch earthquake' solution, while learning from what was done right and wrong.

[Blue Skies]

Actually National have said that they would reverse most of Labour's recent housing policies. Looking at the numbers under Labour's watch, reversing seems a very constructive solution. Also Nicola Willis has proposed a 'Christchurch earthquake' solution, while learning from what was done right and wrong.


I thought about that (National's policy of reversing Labour's policies) & chose the word 'constructively' on purpose.

1) we had a crisis back when National were the govt, so reversing to the status quo doesn't seem very helpful.

and 2) we also had a shocking crisis with preventable 3rd world level diseases killing more children than car crashes & drownings & hospitalising 30,000 children a year from living in damp cold housing. Reversing the Healthy Homes Standard doesn't seem right to me.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/damp-overcrowded-homes-bigger-threat-to-kids-than-car-crashes/XFLQQ7TIF745P3KR4FQHR5HVNY/

Changes always produce side effects but I think we have to think & construct policies long term instead of short term election cycles all the time.

Having said that, Im really shocked & dismayed with the way things have been mismanaged to allow home ownership levels to drop and affordability to run wild even in the context of the Covid induced RB monetary policy.

I can see the cost of Social Welfare which has doubled in last 15 years, now more than a quarter of govt spending & is almost more than spent on Health or Education combined, ballooning due to all the social ills which come with a housing crisis.

[artemis]

I thought about that (National's policy of reversing Labour's policies) & chose the word 'constructively' on purpose.

1) we had a crisis back when National were the govt, so reversing to the status quo doesn't seem very helpful.

and 2) we also had a shocking crisis with preventable 3rd world level diseases killing more children than car crashes & drownings & hospitalising 30,000 children a year from living in damp cold housing. Reversing the Healthy Homes Standard doesn't seem right to me.


1. Have you looked at the numbers before and after September 2017? How much of the publicity around earlier numbers was largely political? Labour had housing as the keynote policy in 2017.... How much have policies and ideologies since then contributed to the skyrocketing numbers on several housing fronts, even while interest rates were seriously low.

2. I have a real problem blaming landlords for 'cold, damp' housing. There is NZ research indicating that overcrowding is a big reason for illness and its transmission in households. Never hear about that though, despite census data showing that Auckland, Northland and BoP have the most overcrowding. Meanwhile why are places cold and damp? Cold because occupiers can't afford the power bill? Damp because of lack of ventilation, overcrowding or any of the long list of tenant responsibilities to remediate damp - see the Tenancy Services website. All the above - up to the tenants or owner occupies, or as the Finance Minister has said they can 'look elsewhere'.

Most of that is recent policy and along with other changes has driven the current numbers, none of which are good and most getting worse.

[Blue Skies]

Now this was a waste of taxpayers money & yet got little coverage in the main media!

$38 million to an overseas company to produce a completely new Covid Vaccination Register, when NZ already has the 'National Vaccination Register'.

And when you consider a new seperate register means a new set of protocols for medical professionals to get to grips with, overcomplicating things, when a simple straightforward National Vaccination Register already exists which everyone is already familiar with, you have to question the quality of decision making.


https://www.newsroom.co.nz/orion-demands-review-of-scandalous-38m-vaccine-register

[dobby41]

Now this was a waste of taxpayers money & yet got little coverage in the main media!

$38 million to an overseas company to produce a completely new Covid Vaccination Register, when NZ already has the 'National Vaccination Register'.

And when you consider a new seperate register means a new set of protocols for medical professionals to get to grips with, overcomplicating things, when a simple straightforward National Vaccination Register already exists which everyone is already familiar with, you have to question the quality of decision making.


https://www.newsroom.co.nz/orion-demands-review-of-scandalous-38m-vaccine-register

I remember quite a few questions being asked about that - especially by Orion as they felt they could have added the required functionality for much less cost.
Interesting, as far back as July 2020 'experts' were saying that the existing system wouldn't cope
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122066457/national-vaccination-tracking-system-too-decrepit-for-covid19-vaccine-rollout

Another article from May this year
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/300312558/covid19-vaccination-it-delivery-an-obscene-waste-of-money-says-orion-boss

A few more - don't forget that this does the booking also
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/govts-behind-schedule-vaccination-register-just-putting-money-into-a-silicon-valley-billionaires-pocket/7AYAWENXAPSHBP2X6QHICTI5NA/
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/covid-19-coronavirus-online-vaccination-register-wont-be-ready-for-saturday-start/QAKZFBDMUTBYDLW27LZLZEKKME/
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/orion-healths-ian-mccrae-sees-tens-of-millions-in-overspend-on-vaccine-register-flawed-procurement/H6N3AH5GU43Q2NCSMK3JQWYEKQ/

[iceman]

Now this was a waste of taxpayers money & yet got little coverage in the main media!

$38 million to an overseas company to produce a completely new Covid Vaccination Register, when NZ already has the 'National Vaccination Register'.

And when you consider a new seperate register means a new set of protocols for medical professionals to get to grips with, overcomplicating things, when a simple straightforward National Vaccination Register already exists which everyone is already familiar with, you have to question the quality of decision making.


https://www.newsroom.co.nz/orion-demands-review-of-scandalous-38m-vaccine-register

And when you get the belated jab you get a driver's licence sized hanwritten piece of paper with your name and date of vaccinataion. No reference to passport or your health number or anything else. SIGH !!

A John Smith would struggle to prove it was actually him (sorry, they) that had the jab.

[Blue Skies]

And when you get the belated jab you get a driver's licenced size hanwritten piece of paper with your name and date of vaccinataion. No reference to passport or your health number or anything else. SIGH !!

A John Smith would struggle to prove it was actually him (sorry, they) that had the jab.



Agreed, a growing number of countries now have a feature on a HealthHub mobile app which people can use to access their official vaccination record (& any Covid test results), and a tracer QR code which can be used when checking in to a hotel or flight or restaurant etc to show the person has been fully vaccinated.

Those little bits of paper we're given can easily be lost or become illegible & will hardly pass the grade when travelling overseas through different countries.
And what happens when people have lost them, thousands of new ones being written ?
Countries are starting to allow people in who have been fully vaccinated & we're going to need something more official & difficult to forge than a little handwritten card.


https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/covid-19-related-health-records-accessible-now-through-healthhub-mobile-app

[Bjauck]

Agreed, a growing number of countries now have a feature on a HealthHub mobile app which people can use to access their official vaccination record (& any Covid test results), and a tracer QR code which can be used when checking in to a hotel or flight or restaurant etc to show the person has been fully vaccinated.

Those little bits of paper we're given can easily be lost or become illegible & will hardly pass the grade when travelling overseas through different countries.
And what happens when people have lost them, thousands of new ones being written ?
Countries are starting to allow people in who have been fully vaccinated & we're going to need something more official & difficult to forge than a little handwritten card.


https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/covid-19-related-health-records-accessible-now-through-healthhub-mobile-app

There is already talk about the need for booster shots and those with weak immune systems may need even more frequent boosters. So a vaccination card would need to be chipped and smart?

I think it would be a good idea to have a smart health card, with allergies printed on it, for everyone so that if in an accident, up to date information could be accessed quickly.

[dobby41]

And when you get the belated jab you get a driver's licence sized hanwritten piece of paper with your name and date of vaccinataion. No reference to passport or your health number or anything else. SIGH !!

A John Smith would struggle to prove it was actually him (sorry, they) that had the jab.

Mine has my NHI number on it?
Whatever we do for a vaccine passport it has to be internationally recognised.
I believe the IATA is well across this, and we are keeping abreast.
No point is spending money on something that won't be accepted anywhere else.

[fungus pudding]

There is already talk about the need for booster shots and those with weak immune systems may need even more frequent boosters. So a vaccination card would need to be chipped and smart?

I think it would be a good idea to have a smart health card, with allergies printed on it, for everyone so that if in an accident, up to date information could be accessed quickly.

There's a job for you this afternoon then. Design a strap, much like a watch, that can be worn on the wrist with a qr code - which could access all sorts of things like driver's license, my health or just NHI number, passport no.etc. Save carrying seven zillion silly plastic cards. Of course you can load all that on your phone, as I have; but one on the wrist would be better if you happen to be spread all over the tarseal under someone's Tesla you didn't hear coming. Alternatively get your qr code tattoed on your arm. That suggestion always gets the privacy paranoid mob excited - so that's the one I would go for.

[Bjauck]

Mine has my NHI number on it?
Whatever we do for a vaccine passport it has to be internationally recognised.
I believe the IATA is well across this, and we are keeping abreast.
No point is spending money on something that won't be accepted anywhere else.
I think we need something for local use as well. I had my first jab yesterday. It does not have my full name - just first name and surname. it does not have either my DoB or NHI number. It does have the vaccine batch number and where and when administered & next appointment time. I assumed it was an appointment reminder card and that I would be getting something more detailed and computer generated after the second shot - Presumably not though.

[777]

There is the faciltiy to apply for an official Health Department letter verifying you have been vaccinated. There was information on this in the centre I had my first jab.

[dobby41]

There's a job for you this afternoon then. Design a strap, much like a watch, that can be worn on the wrist with a qr code - which could access all sorts of things like driver's license, my health or just NHI number, passport no.etc. Save carrying seven zillion silly plastic cards. Of course you can load all that on your phone, as I have; but one on the wrist would be better if you happen to be spread all over the tarseal under someone's Tesla you didn't hear coming. Alternatively get your qr code tattoed on your arm. That suggestion always gets the privacy paranoid mob excited - so that's the one I would go for.
Easy to counterfeit so what would be the point?

I think we need something for local use as well. I had my first jab yesterday. It does not have my full name - just first name and surname. it does not have either my DoB or NHI number. It does have the vaccine batch number and where and when administered & next appointment time. I assumed it was an appointment reminder card and that I would be getting something more detailed and computer generated after the second shot - Presumably not though.

What would this computer generated thing look like - that couldn't be easily counterfeited?
Maybe it should be more like the driver license?

[fungus pudding]

I think we need something for local use as well. I had my first jab yesterday. It does not have my full name - just first name and surname. it does not have either my DoB or NHI number. It does have the vaccine batch number and where and when administered & next appointment time. I assumed it was an appointment reminder card and that I would be getting something more detailed and computer generated after the second shot - Presumably not though.

Same here. My card is just as you describe. No more than an appt. reminder, and doesn't prove a thing. Perhaps the batch no. links to further details - but only God and the other powers that be can access that. I'm suprised they don't add the info to 'manage my health'. Easily done by vaccinators notifying your G.P. practise.

[Bjauck]

There's a job for you this afternoon then. Design a strap, much like a watch, that can be worn on the wrist with a qr code - which could access all sorts of things like driver's license, my health or just NHI number, passport no.etc. Save carrying seven zillion silly plastic cards. Of course you can load all that on your phone, as I have; but one on the wrist would be better if you happen to be spread all over the tarseal under someone's Tesla you didn't hear coming. Alternatively get your qr code tattoed on your arm. That suggestion always gets the privacy paranoid mob excited - so that's the one I would go for.:eek2:
An app would be good too. However there are folk whose gadgets freeze up or run out of battery, or who can't afford or do not have, or are not proficient with, the latest tech...However I do remember the days when my mater made me write down details to put in my pocket when I went out on my bike or for a run.

[Bjauck]

Easy to counterfeit so what would be the point?


What would this computer generated thing look like - that couldn't be easily counterfeited?
Maybe it should be more like the driver license? True, it still would be insecure. I was thinking more from the information it would include for double-checking if necessary. The card I received looks like an appointment reminder.

[fungus pudding]

Easy to counterfeit so what would be the point?


Why would anyone not put thir own details in? No point in being spread all over the road, cursing for listing the wrong info.There was a bit of a half-hearted campaign a while ago to enter ICE in your contacts. (In case of emergency) A good idea if you find someone in distress to grab their phone. Unfortunately it wasn't well publicised and I don't know anyone, other than myself, who has ICE on their phone.

[Blue Skies]

Why would anyone not put thir own details in? No point in being spread all over the road, cursing for listing the wrong info.There was a bit of a half-hearted campaign a while ago to enter ICE in your contacts. (In case of emergency) A good idea if you find someone in distress to grab their phone. Unfortunately it wasn't well publicised and I don't know anyone, other than myself, who has ICE on their phone.


We all have ICE on our phones including blood type & NHI number & encourage anyone you care about to add it, & the more publicity it gets the better.
Remember people, you don't have to unlock someones phone to access ICE details, on an iPhone just press 'emergency' on the bottom left corner of the home screen & it opens it.

[Bjauck]

We all have ICE on our phones including blood type & NHI number & encourage anyone you care about to add it, & the more publicity it gets the better.
Remember people, you don't have to unlock someones phone to access ICE details, on an iPhone just press 'emergency' on the bottom left corner of the home screen & it opens it.
Only if they try to swipe up to get to the number entry on my iphone. ICE can also be accessed by pressing the two buttons on either side at the top to access Power off, Medical I/d and emergency SOS. I have added allergies, any medications plus blood type and NHI to our medical I/ds.

[dobby41]

Why would anyone not put thir own details in? No point in being spread all over the road, cursing for listing the wrong info.There was a bit of a half-hearted campaign a while ago to enter ICE in your contacts. (In case of emergency) A good idea if you find someone in distress to grab their phone. Unfortunately it wasn't well publicised and I don't know anyone, other than myself, who has ICE on their phone.

I have ICE on my phone, and my wifes.
My 'appointment' card has my NHI number (there isn't a space but the vaccinator added it) as does my Covid app.

I'm not sure how any of that relates to my thought that whatever vaccination 'proof' comes out it would need to be harder to counterfeit than a bit of paper or a wrist band.

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/125988671/senior-hawkes-bay-police-officer-furious-over-275m-funding-for-mongrel-mobled-rehab-programme

Calling the BS on Poto Williams & Cindy for the $2.75m funding to the Mongrel Mob.

[Blue Skies]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/125988671/senior-hawkes-bay-police-officer-furious-over-275m-funding-for-mongrel-mobled-rehab-programme

Calling the BS on Poto Williams & Cindy for the $2.75m funding to the Mongrel Mob.


Yes I did note it looks like the program serves just 10 participants which means its costing $275,000 to rehabilitate each person while doing work on a community garden at the home of the mob president. Never have guessed he's a keen gardener in his spare time.
Suppose if they grow enough vegetables it might get a good return on investment.

[dobby41]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/125988671/senior-hawkes-bay-police-officer-furious-over-275m-funding-for-mongrel-mobled-rehab-programme

Calling the BS on Poto Williams & Cindy for the $2.75m funding to the Mongrel Mob.

So is the issue that Labour is doing it (National supported the programme also) or the amount spent?

[Balance]

So is the issue that Labour is doing it (National supported the programme also) or the amount spent?

National’s measly $30k contribution (vs Cindy’s 9000% more of $2.75m) was via the Salvation Army?

Big difference between the two.

[Balance]

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/08/gps-at-breaking-point-as-labour-shortages-covid-19-and-health-system-cause-widespread-frustration.html

Primary Healthcare via GPs at breaking point so what does Cindy via the Little ‘Pike River’ Andrew attempts to do?

Reset healthcare measurements ( the ole reset strategy as on Kiwibuild) and gets laughed at by GPs.

Meanwhile, desperately needed migrant GPs are leaving the country and leaving tens of thousands of NZers under-serviced on healthcare - because Immigration Khris ‘I am stumped’ Faafio has completely lost the plot by not granting residence or clear pathway to residence.

What a freaking mess this government is.

How about resetting some of the $100m election bribe to fix marae (150 jobs created vs 3000 promised) to fix healthcare?

[Balance]

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/immigration-minister-denies-residency-queue-shambles-and-labour-flat-footed-issue

Kris ‘I am stumped’ Faafoi in action trying to explain away the Immigration mess & shambles he has created.

Immigration has basically been sitting on its hands since April 2020, doing nothing while actually adding on more PR & spin staff (as decreed by the Mistress of spin).

And please don’t ask Kris about what is hate speech. He will cry - he was but a journalist & spin merchant for Labour before being made Merchant of Justice - would not have a clue!

[dobby41]

National’s measly $30k contribution (vs Cindy’s 9000% more of $2.75m) was via the Salvation Army?

Big difference between the two.

So the difference is the amount or who via?
I ask because National funded directly as in
"But Newshub can reveal that separately to the Salvation Army funding, National gave Harry Tam's company Hard 2 Reach, also known as H2R Research and Consulting, $30,000."
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/08/previous-national-government-gave-30-000-to-mongrel-mob-member-harry-tam-s-hard-2-reach.html
So that's direct AND via the Salvation Army.

[jonu]

So the difference is the amount or who via?
I ask because National funded directly as in
"But Newshub can reveal that separately to the Salvation Army funding, National gave Harry Tam's company Hard 2 Reach, also known as H2R Research and Consulting, $30,000."
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/08/previous-national-government-gave-30-000-to-mongrel-mob-member-harry-tam-s-hard-2-reach.html
So that's direct AND via the Salvation Army.

30k to those mongrels is bad enough, but would probably have been signed off at admin level. Ardern personally signed off on the 2.75 MILLION! And has had the gall to defend it.

How long can you continue to defend the indefensible?

Ardern's Cabinet of Incompetents are beginning to reap their blight riddled harvest. Her Immigration policy is a disaster.

Her Health Minister is being ridiculed by GPs....yes GPs, about the least militant grouping of professionals I can think of.

Her housing comments from her 2016 opposition days are back to haunt her, with AAAP calling on her to return to the principles she supposedly had in oppositon.

But Cindy's all right. The rich are getting richer at an exponential rate, while her traditional constituency is completely screwed over.

[Bill Smith]

ardern is the BEST ute sales person, house sales person and gun sales person and the WORST at everything else.

[ynot]

ardern is the BEST ute sales person, house sales person and gun sales person and the WORST at everything else.

You got that right Bill. She seems to have lost sight of the little kiwi battler who traditionally Labour had defended. If in fact, they were ever on her agenda.
She is such a shifty piece of work. I can't recall a kiwi PM as dangerous, in my view.

[dobby41]

30k to those mongrels is bad enough, but would probably have been signed off at admin level. Ardern personally signed off on the 2.75 MILLION! And has had the gall to defend it.

Not true - the Nat Govt signed off.
Judith didn't (she was a member of that Govt though) and they have had so many leaders who knows who would have.

[jonu]

Not true - the Nat Govt signed off.
Judith didn't (she was a member of that Govt though) and they have had so many leaders who knows who would have.

From the article you posted from Newshub.

"The $30,000 was granted in July 2017 when National were in power, by the Ministry of Social Development, as part of a programme that aimed to address family violence. "

Like I said, signed off at admin level within the Ministry, not by the Nat PM! Ardern personally signed off the 2.75 million from the Proceeds of Crime fund.

How can you defend this on the basis that you think that the two conflate to the same thing, and given there is a 2.7 million dollar difference in level?

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-vaccine-rollout-update-covid-infected-ship-most-tauranga-port-workers-unvaccinated/GAEYWS5QHVTZLCMBHCCHKIXG3I/

Only 9 out of 98 port workers vaccinated - so much for the wonderful border defence of Cindy’s government.

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126018253/more-than-85-unvaccinated-port-workers-boarded-ship-with-11-positive-covid19-cases-government-urgently-investigating

Complete stuff up -

from the crew being untested before the 98 port workers boarded the ship,

to the workers being told to go into isolation snd then, back to work,

to only 11 of the 98 port workers being vaccinated.

WTF sort of border defence is this government running?

And it has to be the highly infectious and transmissible delta variant which the crew members are infected with.

[ynot]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126018253/more-than-85-unvaccinated-port-workers-boarded-ship-with-11-positive-covid19-cases-government-urgently-investigating

Complete stuff up -

from the crew being untested before the 98 port workers boarded the ship,

to the workers being told to go into isolation snd then, back to work,

to only 11 of the 98 port workers being vaccinated.

WTF sort of border defence is this government running?

And it has to be the highly infectious and transmissible delta variant which the crew members are infected with.

The Australian pilot who boarded the ship in Ausi tested positive prior to the ship arriving in Tauranga ! Subsequently 11 of the crew are now positive !

[Blue Skies]

The Australian pilot who boarded the ship in Ausi tested positive prior to the ship arriving in Tauranga ! Subsequently 11 of the crew are now positive !

Time line,
Last Tuesday 3 Aug, Port of Tauranga were given an alert by Maritime NZ that the ship had been boarded 2 weeks before by Australian Pilot who now tested positive.

Astonishingly, PoT still cleared the ship to berth & sent a PoT pilot who boarded the ship & brought it to the Tauranga Container Terminal on Wednesday afternoon.

9pm Wednesday night Customs shut down operations & told the Pilot & stevedores to go home & isolate.

Thursday PoT advised operations could continue & ship was worked on Thursday through Saturday with no restrictions on 92 workers social movements/contacts outside the Port.

Monday morning (today) 92 workers were told to report to the Port & get tested as advised by Ministry of Health.
What incompetence. PoT management put the whole country at risk now.

Further to this, can you believe Govt employed 'wider border workforce' workers (such as airline staff & port workers as opposed to MIQ workers) have until August 26 to get their 1st jab,
while privately employed border workers have until 30 September to get their 1st jab before consequences kick in.
I can't understand the complacency.

[Blue Skies]

I see there are calls coming from some to lockdown Tauranga tomorrow, with this Delta variant can we afford to wait like Sydney did.

[ynot]

I see there are calls coming from some to lockdown Tauranga tomorrow, with this Delta variant can we afford to wait like Sydney did.
Until we know the facts surrounding how much if any contact the port workers had with the crew, this may or may not be an issue.

[BlackPeter]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126018253/more-than-85-unvaccinated-port-workers-boarded-ship-with-11-positive-covid19-cases-government-urgently-investigating

Complete stuff up -

from the crew being untested before the 98 port workers boarded the ship,

to the workers being told to go into isolation snd then, back to work,

to only 11 of the 98 port workers being vaccinated.

WTF sort of border defence is this government running?

And it has to be the highly infectious and transmissible delta variant which the crew members are infected with.

Frankly - I guess it just shows that this government didn't even pass a management 101. They seem to think that whatever they say magically gets done.

Build 10,000 houses a year? No, surprise, they didn't just magically appear despite the government saying so.

Vaccinate all front line staff? Oops - they forgot to manage this process which involves to plan, check against plan and take corrective action if necessary.

It does not mean sitting on ones hands, wait for the media to identify issues and then run to find weak excuses. Apparently it was all due to evil misinformation that nearly 90% of the Tauranga port workers didn't yet get vaccinated.

While I don't contest that there are a lot of idiots around spreading all sorts of nonsense (we do have some of them as well on this forum ;) ), it would be the government's job to identify these idiots and put their nonsense right instead of waiting for the next disaster and then using these idiots as excuse for non action.

Feels like a bunch of inexperienced third formers trying to run the country ... any chance we get next time around some professionals back into government?

[artemis]

Frankly - I guess it just shows that this government didn't even pass a management 101. They seem to think that whatever they say magically gets done.

Build 10,000 houses a year? No, surprise, they didn't just magically appear despite the government saying so....

There's a Ministry of Delivery now so magical will be happening.

About the 'misinformation' - the Prime Minister did say that was the big issue at the port along with or causing hesitancy. Nothing to do with the government, because they have a plan. Apparently. Though it does seem to be a successful plan on how to lose credibility real fast.

[Bjauck]

...and now we cannot supply electricity to our overpriced homes at the times they need it most.

She'll be right. Is it a case of The banks stuffing money into creating our expensive residential real estate; while Government allows Transpower to be neglected?

Who would have thought that population growth would create new Winter peaks for electricity demand too.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300378816/live-so-third-world-government-faces-pressure-after-rolling-power-blackouts-on-frigid-night

BTW Perhaps National and its restructures can share a generous amount of blame for this too?

[BlackPeter]

...and now we cannot supply electricity to our overpriced homes at the times they need it most.

She'll be right. Is it a case of The banks stuffing money into creating our expensive residential real estate; while Government allows Transpower to be neglected?

Who would have thought that population growth would create new Winter peaks for electricity demand too.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300378816/live-so-third-world-government-faces-pressure-after-rolling-power-blackouts-on-frigid-night

BTW Perhaps National and its restructures can share a generous amount of blame for this too?

Absolutely - National and Labour did work hand in hand to run down our power grid (and not just that) and the Green party did help (with their scare mongering) to make sure the Gentailer have been sold under value (at the cost of the tax payer). Ineptitude does not stop at political boundaries ... it seems to come naturally with the job description for many NZ politicians.

What is the logical outcome if we force more and more households to rely only on electric heating? Oh - power consumption goes up? Nah, lets not worry about that ... we will always find some weak excuses.

What do we expect to happen if we stop any future gas exploration around NZ? Companies will fall over each other and keep investing into an aging gas infrastructure? Well, they didn't - and this is clearly something Labour, NZ First and Green need to take responsibility for. Thanks to these geniuses are we now burning more and more dirty coal to generate power ... and it looks like even this is not enough.

We probably need to set up a new working group ... I hear their reports are great to kindle the fire in the logburner ... if you still have one :) ;

[Zaphod]

No doubt the pumped hydro scheme will probably be 'pumped' as the solution to our woes, however I cannot see this being built for a very long time given the cost, environmental impact, & associated legal objections to any consent being issued.

As for gas exploration, the major players have already departed NZ and will not return. Local companies are taking an ever increasing share of an ever diminishing market. Hydrogen distributed via the existing gas network is being touted as a suitable replacement, but the issues with this approach are far too numerous to be solved within the timeframe we require.

So, what will the politicians come up with?

[Bjauck]

...
We probably need to set up a new working group ... I hear their reports are great to kindle the fire in the logburner ... if you still have one :) ; Used the old kitchen log burner this morning. These last few years it has been used only a handful of times each Winter. As the neighbour and I were clearing up some illegal dumping (it costs people a fortune to take rubbish to an Auckland dump) from the roadside drainage ditch, they pointedly said how hazy it was this morning. It looks like I will have to get them something other than A Schloss Plonk White for Christmas!

Yep ideological policies came with a price tag one way or the other.

[BlackPeter]

Used the old kitchen log burner this morning. These last few years it has been used only a handful of times each Winter. As the neighbour and I were clearing up some illegal dumping (it costs people a fortune to take rubbish to an Auckland dump) from the roadside drainage ditch, they pointedly said how hazy it was this morning. It looks like I will have to get them something other than A Schloss Plonk White for Christmas!

Maybe you should invest into a cleaner log burner ;):

[Bjauck]

Maybe you should invest into a cleaner log burner ;): Next step will be to remove it. Winters have become milder and I tell everyone to wear jumpers in the mornings!

[Balance]

Next step will be to remove it. Winters have become milder and I tell everyone to wear jumpers in the mornings!

Have you not heard Cindy’s solution? She and her Maori caucus are going to ban winter as it is contrary to Maori traditional belief? And you must not question that decision as it’s racist to do so.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/power-outages-pm-jacinda-ardern-says-not-good-enough-that-we-couldnt-heat-homes/42KMF3MXIUQYZOORUSDLMC2JBU/

This is the best that Cindy can do these days - mouth platitudes & sermons after 3.5 years in power.

[dobby41]

...and now we cannot supply electricity to our overpriced homes at the times they need it most.

She'll be right. Is it a case of The banks stuffing money into creating our expensive residential real estate; while Government allows Transpower to be neglected?

Who would have thought that population growth would create new Winter peaks for electricity demand too.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300378816/live-so-third-world-government-faces-pressure-after-rolling-power-blackouts-on-frigid-night

BTW Perhaps National and its restructures can share a generous amount of blame for this too?
The Cook Strait cable was running 50% (so capacity there) and Huntly running 50% - not a capacity issue.
Capitalist market failure?
Maybe the Govt should take it all over since they get the blame anyway :eek2: :t_up: :eek2:

[dobby41]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/power-outages-pm-jacinda-ardern-says-not-good-enough-that-we-couldnt-heat-homes/42KMF3MXIUQYZOORUSDLMC2JBU/

This is the best that Cindy can do these days - mouth platitudes & sermons after 3.5 years in power.

Because they were supposed to do what to make the generators do their job?

[Balance]

Because they were supposed to do what to make the generators do their job?

What is the government for then?

One phone call would have fixed the problem but Cindy was soundly asleep with dreams of the UN posting.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300378816/power-blackouts-genesis-energy-didnt-generate-extra-power-despite-freezing-cold-pm-says-situation-not-good-enough

There is capacity but as usual, this government was too busy thinking of what to spend and do as the next Maori initiative to lock in their votes.

Note Megan Wood has written this morning to the power companies, demanding answers! She has lost her mobile? Or has she lost the plot?

[ynot]

What is the government for then?

Are you serious Dobby. You have an answer for everything. Too bad it seldom makes any sense.

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/new-implementation-unit-to-tackle-faltering-mental-health-rollout-and-jobs-for-nature/VJPL22Q6VTX6I4JBHT3EAW7EKI/

More $$$$ to outside consultants to tell Cindy & her team of idiots how to suck eggs - implement projects. WTF - have they learnt nothing in 3 years?

[dobby41]

What is the government for then?

One phone call would have fixed the problem but Cindy was soundly asleep with dreams of the UN posting.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300378816/power-blackouts-genesis-energy-didnt-generate-extra-power-despite-freezing-cold-pm-says-situation-not-good-enough

There is capacity but as usual, this government was too busy thinking of what to spend and do as the next Maori initiative to lock in their votes.

Note Megan Wood has written this morning to the power companies, demanding answers! She has lost her mobile? Or has she lost the plot?
You do know the facts as outlined so far?
On the fly you want the Govt to run things, run private things? These are private companies (sure they have public shareholding but that is supposed to be arms-length) going about their business badly and you want the Govt to be so connected with what is happening that they effectively sit at the console operating the companies generating capacity.
I wouldn't be just ringing them - I'd be demanding an explanation, in writing, rather than platitudes over the phone. Answers have been demanded by 2pm today - as they should!

You seem to want the Govt involved in the detail but, at the same time, not involved at all.


Are you serious Dobby. You have an answer for everything. Too bad it seldom makes any sense.

I am serious!
This is a failure of the power system as it stands - a private system.
The Govt part worked fine - they are responsible for the Grid via Transpower. Plenty of capacity there.
Transpower warned the operators (these private companies) that demand would be high - the operators didn't respond enough.
Sure there were a few failures (Tokaanu went off-line due to weeds in the intake) to exacerbate the situation.

Hold your abhorrence for the generators and demand that the Govt does something about them!
But you can't honestly blame the Govt for this.

[Balance]

You do know the facts as outlined so far?
On the fly you want the Govt to run things, run private things? These are private companies (sure they have public shareholding but that is supposed to be arms-length) going about their business badly and you want the Govt to be so connected with what is happening that they effectively sit at the console operating the companies generating capacity.

But you can't honestly blame the Govt for this.

Of course the government is to be blamed - one phone call as majority shareholder to the directors of the public majority owned power companies to crank up the generators. It’s that simple but as I have already wrote, Cindy & Megan Woods were asleep or thinking of what to spend big on the next Maori initiative.

This government will do anything except make things happen for NZers.

They will stop oil exploration, impose new taxes, interfere in the property market with all kinds of new regulations and requirements, muck around with Air NZ (private company - pass the Tui) which desperately needs a proper recapitalisation but not make a phone call as the major shareholder of a power generator?

So full of excuses you are, dobby41. No wonder the housing crisis has now become a housing disaster.

[dobby41]

Of course the government is to be blamed - one phone call as majority shareholder to the directors of the public majority owned power companies to crank up the generators. It’s that simple but as I have already wrote, Cindy & Megan Woods were asleep or thinking of what to spend big on the next Maori initiative.


You always have an answer then ruin it with stupid comments like the 2nd sentence.

So Jacinda is sitting at the console at Transpower and realises that we will run short so rings up the power company CEOs to run up more capacity?
Unfortunately, there is this
"“A rankine unit takes several hours to become operational and would not have met demand in the circumstances during last night’s peak.”"

You are so far removed from reality that there really is no hope for you.

[Balance]

You always have an answer then ruin it with stupid comments like the 2nd sentence.

So Jacinda is sitting at the console at Transpower and realises that we will run short so rings up the power company CEOs to run up more capacity?
Unfortunately, there is this
"“A rankine unit takes several hours to become operational and would not have met demand in the circumstances during last night’s peak.”"

You are so far removed from reality that there really is no hope for you.

Excuses, excuses - Kiwibuild anyone?

[Getty]

You always have an answer then ruin it with stupid comments like the 2nd sentence.

So Jacinda is sitting at the console at Transpower and realises that we will run short so rings up the power company CEOs to run up more capacity?
Unfortunately, there is this
"“A rankine unit takes several hours to become operational and would not have met demand in the circumstances during last night’s peak.”"

You are so far removed from reality that there really is no hope for you.

See post# 941/2 Power shares.

[Bjauck]

The Cook Strait cable was running 50% (so capacity there) and Huntly running 50% - not a capacity issue.
Capitalist market failure?
Maybe the Govt should take it all over since they get the blame anyway :eek2: :t_up: :eek2: Fair enough - it sounds like a systemic issue. In such a system with fragmented decision-making, it sounds like they need to establish a procedure get all the ducks to line up in a row so that during these ever increasing periods of peek demand sufficient generation can be transported to where it is needed.

[Bjauck]

Is the UK electricity supply in worse position than NZ?
There are warnings that the UK will face power blackouts next Winter. Their electricity sector has seen privatisation and reform too. I think their National Grid is operated by an independent company.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/22/great-britain-faces-risk-of-winter-blackouts-system-operator-warns

[Blue Skies]

Interesting commentary from a neutral Power expert/consultant on radio just now for those who missed it.
The gist of it being if I remember correctly,

1) Capacity wasn't a problem, there was plenty of spare capacity in system
2) Transpower warned Genesis Energy early yesterday to expect a huge increase in demand due weather forecast
3) Genesis calculated they wouldn't need to crank up Huntly as demand could easily be met from Taranaki wind farm (presumably already calculated into equation Tokanau weed problem)
4) Wind unexpectedly died in Taranaki yesterday leaving them short.
5) Genesis has no financial incentive in current framework to avoid a repeat of this.
6) Easy painless solution to avoid blackouts is to request Supermarkets around the country to turn off their freezers for 2 hours from peak 6pm period (apparantly the power savings would easily be enough to avoid tipping the network into blackout & food wouldn't defrost in 2 hours ).

[dobby41]

Fair enough - it sounds like a systemic issue. In such a system with fragmented decision-making, it sounds like they need to establish a procedure get all the ducks to line up in a row so that during these ever increasing periods of peek demand sufficient generation can be transported to where it is needed.

Fragmented because each Generator is allowed to do what they want.
Transpower can advise and the regulator can look AFTER it fails.
The way the Market is set up isn't working the way it is supposed to.

Expect some regulation of some sort.

[dobby41]

Interesting commentary from a neutral Power expert/consultant on radio just now for those who missed it.
The gist of it being if I remember correctly,

1) Capacity wasn't a problem, there was plenty of spare capacity in system
2) Transpower warned Genesis Energy early yesterday to expect a huge increase in demand due weather forecast
3) Genesis calculated they wouldn't need to crank up Huntly as demand could easily be met from Taranaki wind farm (presumably already calculated into equation Tokanau weed problem)
4) Wind unexpectedly died in Taranaki yesterday leaving them short.
5) Genesis has no financial incentive in current framework to avoid a repeat of this.
6) Easy painless solution to avoid blackouts is to request Supermarkets around the country to turn off their freezers for 2 hours from peak 6pm period (apparantly the power savings would easily be enough to avoid tipping the network into blackout & food wouldn't defrost in 2 hours ).

Stuff had this (says the same thing except for the freezer bit)
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300378816/genesis-energy-blames-highly-unusual-conditions-for-power-blackouts-jacinda-ardern-says-cuts-not-good-enough

[Logen Ninefingers]

Here in NZ we are cancelling natural gas exploration and have killed off our coal industry, all so we can import shiploads of coal from Indonesia.

We are crucifying ourselves in NZ, crucifying our food production sector, crucifying our living standards - all to satisfy a climate crusade that others just will not buy into.

Why do we continue to pretend that we can reverse the course of global warming simply by acting here in NZ? We can't. Our parliamentarians must start acting by demanding that China does it's part!!

There is no time to waste: our leaders on both Left and Right must call China to account. Sitting on their hands will only result in dire outcomes: we the people want action! Bringing in a ute tax & killing our farming industry are irrelevant self-defeating actions which will only end up hurting New Zealand. Kill off farming here......and import all our food?!?! Has any Lefty actually thought this through!!!!


https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut-emissions-china-goes-on-a-coal-spree

Despite Pledges to Cut Emissions, China Goes on a Coal Spree
China is building large numbers of coal-fired power plants to drive its post-pandemic economy. The government has promised a CO2 emissions peak by 2030, but the new coal binge jeopardizes both China’s decarbonization plans and global efforts to tackle climate change.

BY MICHAEL STANDAERT • MARCH 24, 2021

Coal remains at the heart of China’s flourishing economy. In 2019, 58 percent of the country’s total energy consumption came from coal, which helps explain why China accounts for 28 percent of all global CO2 emissions. And China continues to build coal-fired power plants at a rate that outpaces the rest of the world combined. In 2020, China brought 38.4 gigawatts of new coal-fired power into operation, more than three times what was brought on line everywhere else.

A total of 247 gigawatts of coal power is now in planning or development, nearly six times Germany’s entire coal-fired capacity. China has also proposed additional new coal plants that, if built, would generate 73.5 gigawatts of power, more than five times the 13.9 gigawatts proposed in the rest of the world combined. Last year, Chinese provinces granted construction approval to 47 gigawatts of coal power projects, more than three times the capacity permitted in 2019.

China has pledged that its emissions will peak around 2030, but that high-water mark would still mean that the country is generating huge quantities CO2 — 12.9 billion to 14.7 billion tons of carbon dioxide annually for the next decade, or as much as 15 percent per year above 2015 levels, according to a Climate Action Tracker analysis.

[Blue Skies]

Here in NZ we are cancelling natural gas exploration and have killed off our coal industry, all so we can import shiploads of coal from Indonesia.

We are crucifying ourselves in NZ, crucifying our food production sector, crucifying our living standards - all to satisfy a climate crusade that others just will not buy into.

Why do we continue to pretend that we can reverse the course of global warming simply by acting here in NZ? We can't. Our parliamentarians must start acting by demanding that China does it's part!!

There is no time to waste: our leaders on both Left and Right must call China to account. Sitting on their hands will only result in dire outcomes: we the people want action! Bringing in a ute tax & killing our farming industry are irrelevant self-defeating actions which will only end up hurting New Zealand. Kill off farming here......and import all our food?!?! Has any Lefty actually thought this through!!!!


https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut-emissions-china-goes-on-a-coal-spree

Despite Pledges to Cut Emissions, China Goes on a Coal Spree
China is building large numbers of coal-fired power plants to drive its post-pandemic economy. The government has promised a CO2 emissions peak by 2030, but the new coal binge jeopardizes both China’s decarbonization plans and global efforts to tackle climate change.

BY MICHAEL STANDAERT • MARCH 24, 2021

Coal remains at the heart of China’s flourishing economy. In 2019, 58 percent of the country’s total energy consumption came from coal, which helps explain why China accounts for 28 percent of all global CO2 emissions. And China continues to build coal-fired power plants at a rate that outpaces the rest of the world combined. In 2020, China brought 38.4 gigawatts of new coal-fired power into operation, more than three times what was brought on line everywhere else.

A total of 247 gigawatts of coal power is now in planning or development, nearly six times Germany’s entire coal-fired capacity. China has also proposed additional new coal plants that, if built, would generate 73.5 gigawatts of power, more than five times the 13.9 gigawatts proposed in the rest of the world combined. Last year, Chinese provinces granted construction approval to 47 gigawatts of coal power projects, more than three times the capacity permitted in 2019.

China has pledged that its emissions will peak around 2030, but that high-water mark would still mean that the country is generating huge quantities CO2 — 12.9 billion to 14.7 billion tons of carbon dioxide annually for the next decade, or as much as 15 percent per year above 2015 levels, according to a Climate Action Tracker analysis.



I hate to spoil the party but, China is going flat out developing & leading the world in renewable technologies & China's CO2 emissions per capita are only a fraction above our own, 7.38 V NZ's 7.14

And China's 7.38 is way way way below countries like,

Australia 17.10,
or US 15.52,
or Russia 11.44,
UAE 23.37,
Canada 18.58,
Bermuda 10.09
etc.



https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/

NB while these are 2016 figures & China has increased slightly but still under 8, both NZ & Australia's figures have also increased, NZ 8.1 in 2019

[BlackPeter]

As well -

lets not forget as well that China just recently received a "reminder" that climate change is here:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57861067

On the other hand - NZ received this year already the third warning: Auckland - Tornado, Canterbury and Westport - both hundred plus year floodings.

Maybe we better hurry up, shall we? The time to listen to right-wing idiots who prefer to talk us into suicide pacts is over ...

[Bjauck]

I hate to spoil the party but, China is going flat out developing & leading the world in renewable technologies & China's CO2 emissions per capita are only a fraction above our own, 7.38 V NZ's 7.14
…
Wow. That’s meshuga. A generation ago (30 years ago) China’s CO2 emissions were 1/3 of NZ’s per capita. Let’s hope they storm ahead with renewables as they have in so many other fields. All power to them!

https://knoema.com/atlas/China/CO2-emissions-per-capita?compareTo=NZ

[Marilyn Munroe]

The Prime Minister when she shut down oil and gas exploration on a whim has got what she wanted, good and hard.

Her demeanor on TV3 news being interviewed about last nights rolling blackouts showed she is not happy about it.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

[Logen Ninefingers]

As well -

lets not forget as well that China just recently received a "reminder" that climate change is here:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57861067

On the other hand - NZ received this year already the third warning: Auckland - Tornado, Canterbury and Westport - both hundred plus year floodings.

Maybe we better hurry up, shall we? The time to listen to right-wing idiots who prefer to talk us into suicide pacts is over ...

A tornado and floods are evidence of climate change(?)

I don't know what you want NZ to hurry up and do. Import more coal to generate power to charge our electric cars maybe? We won't be stopping climate change here in NZ no matter what we do. It's in the hands of the big nations. China has pledged that it's emissions will peak in 2030 - which is 9 years away!! Blue Skies and Black Peter are totally blase about this: they want us to cut our emissions, while for the next 9 years China's emissions continue to climb.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Can the world afford to have a huge nation like China continue to increase its emissions for the next 9 years?
Of course it can't.
So why isn't this the lead story on our news networks tonight?
Every responsible citizen should write to their MP and ask them to put pressure the big polluters. If every MP gets the message maybe our leaders will do something!!

[Panda-NZ-]

One child policy plus huge renewables development (including thorium nuclear reactors online soon).

We can be proud that our contribution is relatively high too and don't need to risk this..
Air pollution from coal will lower our life expectancy so there's that angle too.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Looks like agents of the CCP are posting here.

China assures the world that it's emissions will peak in 2030, and that's apparently ok because 'new technology'. What a nonsensical argument by the Left.

Can the world afford a decade of China increasing it's emissions?
Apparently it's all good, and if we stop eating meat and drinking milk here in NZ, and all dress in hair-shirts, subsist on hemp seeds, and scrap our utes the planet will be saved.

Once again, China is planning to increase it's emissions every year from now until 2030, and according to the Left that is ok because 'new technology'.

[Blue Skies]

A tornado and floods are evidence of climate change(?)

I don't know what you want NZ to hurry up and do. Import more coal to generate power to charge our electric cars maybe? We won't be stopping climate change here in NZ no matter what we do. It's in the hands of the big nations. China has pledged that it's emissions will peak in 2030 - which is 9 years away!! Blue Skies and Black Peter are totally blase about this: they want us to cut our emissions, while for the next 9 years China's emissions continue to climb.


Im sorry you got that impression, nothing could be further from the truth & am sure BP like myself deeply concerned about climate change.

The points being made were,

1) surely emissions must be compared on a per capita basis.
18.47% of the planets population live in China so you wouldn't expect them to produce similar emission levels to a country like USA with 4.25% of the planets population, or a tiny country like NZ

2) On a per capita basis a country like Australia's (with 0.33% of world's population) carbon footprint is currently 9 X the level of China, 4 X the level of the USA & 37 X the level of India.

Just saying these are things worth thinking about.

https://climateanalytics.org/latest/australia-on-track-to-become-one-of-the-worlds-major-climate-polluters/

[Balance]

Accept some basic facts about geopolitics & geoeconomics when it comes to climate change and tackling carbon emissions:

1. NZ needs the world to buy our produce & goods and we are as far away from our main markets as you can get.

We have no choice but to embrace emission controls if we are to avoid sanctions and punitive tariffs & quotas in future.

2. The big countries like US, China & India really do not care a hoot about emission control until they really need to. The world needs them more than they need the world.

It sucks but the above is reality so get used to it.

What is wrong with Cindy & her team of incompetents is that she is putting NZ in the firing line by making it a crusade, accelerating NZ’s contribution without heed of realism.

In other words, building a rod for other countries to beat our back!

It’s like the whole EV thing - Cindy does not have a clue that the world does not produce enough EV to supply NZ - let alone at affordable prices. But that’s what you get with the Kiwibuild Queen. All spin & no delivery.

[Panda-NZ-]

Looks like agents of the CCP are posting here.

When is India going to have a restriction on births?

One region of India is doing something :
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57801764

Population is decreasing in most developed countries without migration.

[Panda-NZ-]

Though I shouldn't say we are much better per person..
2% growth which is the highest in OECD.

[Bjauck]

Accept some basic facts about geopolitics & geoeconomics when it comes to climate change and tackling carbon emissions:

1. NZ needs the world to buy our produce & goods and we are as far away from our main markets as you can get.

We have no choice but to embrace emission controls if we are to avoid sanctions and punitive tariffs & quotas in future.

2. The big countries like US, China & India really do not care a hoot about emission control until they really need to. The world needs them more than they need the world.

It sucks but the above is reality so get used to it.

What is wrong with Cindy & her team of incompetents is that she is putting NZ in the firing line by making it a crusade, accelerating NZ’s contribution without heed of realism.

In other words, building a rod for other countries to beat our back!

It’s like the whole EV thing - Cindy does not have a clue that the world does not produce enough EV to supply NZ - let alone at affordable prices. But that’s what you get with the Kiwibuild Queen. All spin & no delivery.

So true. The Biritsh Empire with its far flung colonies of settlers was not good for the planet. First the coal powered vessels and now, Covid excepted, jet loads of passengers and trade polluting the globe.

[Balance]

If only the fawning woke media will do their job rather than just regurgitate the garbage from the Spin Cindy Mistress about how great she & her woke Maori vote driven government are doing.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/richard-prebble-chris-hipkins-is-failing-in-both-his-portfolios/CXFQL6VE3ZZFLMVSFGULVW2VA4/

Paywalled article by Richard Prebble (ex Labour Minister during the 1980s) critiquing the Kiwibuild Queen's golden boy Chris Hipkins :

Excerpts :

"The government was warned a year ago in the Simpson/Roche Report that our ports are wide open to Covid.

The Maritime Union says its members are angry that they were put at risk by going on board a ship with Covid cases. Maybe I am the first to tell the union, the country is angry that its members have put everyone at risk by willfully refusing to be vaccinated.

The Maritime Union is affiliated to the Labour Party. Is this the reason ministers have not insisted port border workers be vaccinated? This is the fourth ship with Covid in a month.

Chris Hipkins, the Covid Response Minister, has been in politics all his life. He joined the Labour party as a schoolboy. You have to be highly political not to have acted on the Simpson/Roche report. Last weekend he was even denying the MIQ booking system is a failure."

As for education :

Covid is not the only crisis Hipkins is presiding over. He is the Minister of Education.

After receiving a glowing independent report saying that Charter Schools "are meeting their learners' needs using good and innovative practices", Hipkins abolished Charter Schools.

In their NCEA results Maori and Pacifica pupils attending Charter schools exceeded the average achievement of all students.

The Minister assured us that he was going to introduce policies to ensure pupils succeed in state schools."

3.5 years into this government, where are the policies and why have educations standards drop rather than rise?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Im sorry you got that impression, nothing could be further from the truth & am sure BP like myself deeply concerned about climate change.

The points being made were,

1) surely emissions must be compared on a per capita basis.
18.47% of the planets population live in China so you wouldn't expect them to produce similar emission levels to a country like USA with 4.25% of the planets population, or a tiny country like NZ

2) On a per capita basis a country like Australia's (with 0.33% of world's population) carbon footprint is currently 9 X the level of China, 4 X the level of the USA & 37 X the level of India.

Just saying these are things worth thinking about.

https://climateanalytics.org/latest/australia-on-track-to-become-one-of-the-worlds-major-climate-polluters/

See below for the way it's going to work as per the template from the Left.

1/ NZ must & will decrease it's per capita carbon emissions urgently and an on-going basis. We must do this to save the planet. We can do this via a combination of ute taxes, banning oil and gas exploration, banning coal mining, importing huge amounts of coal from Indonesia, ceasing to eat meat and dairy products, and embracing socialism as rapidly as possible.

2/ China will continue to increase it's per capita emissions every year until 2030, and it's all fine. It simply doesn't matter. The cuts NZ is making and our decreased standard of living will balance out with the increases that China is making.

3/ Because NZ will decrease per capita emissions every year and China will increase their per capita emissions every year, there will be a perfect balance. The planet will be saved!

Follow the above template if you wish to convince your non-socialist (communist) friends of the validity of your view-point. Also remember to sprinkle the word 'neoliberalism' through your written or spoken argument, as this will get you bonus points - it is one of the prime virtue signalling words of the Left, always use it as often as possible, even when it is apropos of nothing.

[Balance]

See below for the way it's going to work as per the template from the Left.

1/ NZ must & will decrease it's per capita carbon emissions urgently and an on-going basis. We must do this to save the planet. We can do this via a combination of ute taxes, banning oil and gas exploration, banning coal mining, importing huge amounts of coal from Indonesia, ceasing to eat meat and dairy products, and embracing socialism as rapidly as possible.

2/ China will continue to increase it's per capita emissions every year until 2030, and it's all fine. It simply doesn't matter. The cuts NZ is making and our decreased standard of living will balance out with the increases that China is making.

3/ Because NZ will decrease per capita emissions every year and China will increase their per capita emissions every year, there will be a perfect balance. The planet will be saved!

Follow the above template if you wish to convince your non-socialist (communist) friends of the validity of your view-point. Also remember to sprinkle the word 'neoliberalism' through your written or spoken argument, as this will get you bonus points - it is one of the prime virtue signalling words of the Left, always use it as often as possible, even when it is apropos of nothing.

Basically, NZers will pay a huge price for accelerated emission reduction so that Cindy, the Spin Mistress, gets her credentials burnished (like Aunty Helen) for a UN posting for life after she gets kicked out of Parliament for her all spin & no delivery government's failures.

[SBQ]

I dunno about you guys but I don't have a problem with carbon reduction at the cost of lowering our standard of living. We will still be miles ahead when compared to the living standards of how most people live in China. They can afford to increase their carbon footprint but China is also part of the global mix for addressing climate change. On the radio this morning they talked about why we had power cuts blaming the privatisation of our electricity as the key problem. Well what people need to do is start becoming more self reliant by installing solar PV panels in their homes (which on most part, using solar PVs made in China). I do see solutions in the future - such as home battery based storage for power. With how expensive it costs to build a house, spending $20K on a solar PV + Battery setup is good insurance for the future against blackouts and power shortages.

[BlackPeter]

A tornado and floods are evidence of climate change(?)

I don't know what you want NZ to hurry up and do. Import more coal to generate power to charge our electric cars maybe? We won't be stopping climate change here in NZ no matter what we do. It's in the hands of the big nations. China has pledged that it's emissions will peak in 2030 - which is 9 years away!! Blue Skies and Black Peter are totally blase about this: they want us to cut our emissions, while for the next 9 years China's emissions continue to climb.

It sounds like you don't care about the environment, the globe or the future of our children. Maybe you don't have any - so - why bother, only a better woman would.

Sounds like as well you are one of the people happy to watch the village burn down ... I guess the firefighters didn't yet come and rumors are that in a land far away people there continue to accumulate fuel, so why should you move a finger? And hey, if the fire jumps over to your house, than it clearly was all the fault of the firefighters, wasn't it?

However - you might care about our general economic situation. If we can't sell anymore our produce and if tourists consistently avoid the dirty and brown New Zealand, maybe then people like you find out that they can't live from spreading irresponsible talk alone.

Most of our trading partners are currently implementing restrictions against importing from countries who don't do enough to stem climate change. The European Union is at the forefront of this movement.

Will be fun if nobody buys our milk, vegies, fruit, meat or wool anymore because we only produce hot air instead of fighting climate change, wouldn't it?

[Logen Ninefingers]

It sounds like you don't care about the environment, the globe or the future of our children. Maybe you don't have any - so - why bother, only a better woman would.

Sounds like as well you are one of the people happy to watch the village burn down ... I guess the firefighters didn't yet come and rumors are that in a land far away people there continue to accumulate fuel, so why should you move a finger? And hey, if the fire jumps over to your house, than it clearly was all the fault of the firefighters, wasn't it?

However - you might care about our general economic situation. If we can't sell anymore our produce and if tourists consistently avoid the dirty and brown New Zealand, maybe then people like you find out that they can't live from spreading irresponsible talk alone.

Most of our trading partners are currently implementing restrictions against importing from countries who don't do enough to stem climate change. The European Union is at the forefront of this movement.

Will be fun if nobody buys our milk, vegies, fruit, meat or wool anymore because we only produce hot air instead of fighting climate change, wouldn't it?

What you and your ilk care about is rabbiting on about 'neoliberalism' and ute taxes, while China increases its per capita carbon emissions every year until 2030 - by which time the planet will be well and truly cooked.

Do you really care about the planet?
Or is this more about agitating for a communist revolution?
Or more about hating on farmers?

China has pledged that its emissions will peak around 2030, but that high-water mark would still mean that the country is generating huge quantities CO2 — 12.9 billion to 14.7 billion tons of carbon dioxide annually for the next decade, or as much as 15 percent per year above 2015 levels, according to a Climate Action Tracker analysis.

[Balance]

What you and your ilk care about is rabbiting on about 'neoliberalism' and ute taxes, while China increases its per capita carbon emissions every year until 2030 - by which time the planet will be well and truly cooked.

Do you really care about the planet?
Or is this more about agitating for a communist revolution?
Or more about hating on farmers?

China has pledged that its emissions will peak around 2030, but that high-water mark would still mean that the country is generating huge quantities CO2 — 12.9 billion to 14.7 billion tons of carbon dioxide annually for the next decade, or as much as 15 percent per year above 2015 levels, according to a Climate Action Tracker analysis.

China is the world's factory - reason for high emission.

When the world cuts back on consumption of consumer goods, China's emission will drop.

It's that simple.

[BlackPeter]

What you and your ilk care about is rabbiting on about 'neoliberalism' and ute taxes, while China increases its per capita carbon emissions every year until 2030 - by which time the planet will be well and truly cooked.

Do you really care about the planet?
Or is this more about agitating for a communist revolution?
Or more about hating on farmers?

China has pledged that its emissions will peak around 2030, but that high-water mark would still mean that the country is generating huge quantities CO2 — 12.9 billion to 14.7 billion tons of carbon dioxide annually for the next decade, or as much as 15 percent per year above 2015 levels, according to a Climate Action Tracker analysis.

Incredibly stupid post, given that BaaBaa's recent posting already documented that NZ is producing per head more CO2 than China does. We better do something about that before we start the finger pointing game, shall we?

And of course - we all need to improve our act. China, the US (ways worse per head than China), India, Europe - and yes, we in NZ as well.

However just sitting on our hands and pointing fingers to others is clearly ridiculous and counterproductive.

Did this work for you in kindergarten? Quite difficult actually to point fingers while you sit on your hands, but it appears your perfected this game :p .

Well, here is news for you - nobody can change things they can't control, but everybody can change the things they can control. So, why not starting with that?

We can control New Zealand's CO2 output, but we can't control China.

BTW - Matthew 7:5 springs to mind:


Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

While I am not religious - there is a lot of wisdom in the book, isn't it?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Incredibly stupid post, given that BaaBaa's recent posting already documented that NZ is producing per head more CO2 than China does. We better do something about that before we start the finger pointing game, shall we?

And of course - we all need to improve our act. China, the US (ways worse per head than China), India, Europe - and yes, we in NZ as well.

However just sitting on our hands and pointing fingers to others is clearly ridiculous and counterproductive.

Did this work for you in kindergarten? Quite difficult actually to point fingers while you sit on your hands, but it appears your perfected this game :p .

Well, here is news for you - nobody can change things they can't control, but everybody can change the things they can control. So, why not starting with that?

We can control New Zealand's CO2 output, but we can't control China.

BTW - Matthew 7:5 springs to mind:



While I am not religious - there is a lot of wisdom in the book, isn't it?

We can control New Zealand's CO2 output, but we can't control China.

So we will start cutting our emissions, and meanwhile China will be increasing theirs year on year for the next 9 years.....and you think that will 'save the planet'? Lol.

[SBQ]

We can control New Zealand's CO2 output, but we can't control China.

So we will start cutting our emissions, and meanwhile China will be increasing theirs year on year for the next 9 years.....and you think that will 'save the planet'? Lol.

If you have not picked up my meaning in my last post, the rise in China's emissions is to the benefit of the world through their production of goods. Would you rather have solar PVs produced in say Africa? or places where the product would be very inefficient and at a much higher carbon emission level?

Items like solar PVs, lithium batteries, etc are made in China for good reason.

[Balance]

If you have not picked up my meaning in my last post, the rise in China's emissions is to the benefit of the world through their production of goods. Would you rather have solar PVs produced in say Africa? or places where the product would be very inefficient and at a much higher carbon emission level?

Items like solar PVs, lithium batteries, etc are made in China for good reason.

Don’t debate with those who have no appreciation of the bigger picture, SBQ.

You are debating with a brick wall.

China is the world's factory - producing goods at reasonable prices vs when the same goods were produced in US, Japan or Europe (or for that matter, NZ & Australia).

Meanwhile, countries like the US with its cheap oil & energy policies are polluting the world and nobody says anything.

[FTG]

Incredibly stupid post, given that BaaBaa's recent posting already documented that NZ is producing per head more CO2 than China does.

The figures quoted in Blue Skies post is a gentle reminder for us all that as with any argument, depending on which stats one selects & how one presents the raw data, an argument can be validated or invalidated accordingly.

In this case, assuming for a moment that the Chinese CO2 per capita figures are correct (which to be frank are likely to be well underestimated), then just by presenting them a little differently one can form quite a different view.

Specifically, we know the population of China is circa 1.5 Billion. We also know that over the last couple of decades there has been a large Rural to Urban drift. BUT....there are still considerable numbers (over 35% - 530 Million people) living in a rural setting, mostly emitting very low levels of CO2. Comparatively, the NZ rural population is around only <14%. Understandably these demographic facts significantly distort any "CO2 per capita" stats.

Additionally, as we are also told, NZ's agriculture industry produces more than 50% of the country's emissions. Agriculture that is generally more "CO2 efficient" than other agricultural producing countries. Cows, Sheep etc that if weren't in NZ you can absolutely be sure would still exist somewhere else on the planet, to meet the food needs of the world's population, but in a less efficient manner.

Thirdly, once again taking those same Chinese per capita figures (again; very likely understated) then they ALSO tell us that China is producing more than 300 x the amount of CO2 than NZ.

Making Chinese non-agricultural (Industrial & Household) CO2 emissions well in excess of 500 x that of NZ.

Certainly alters the perspective a little.

[Baa_Baa]

Could someone remind me what post of mine that you are referring to? Either I've forgotten, or am being attributed with posting stats that I did not actually post. I normally refrain from participating in this thread, just a lurker & reader.

[FTG]

Could someone remind me what post of mine that you are referring to? Either I've forgotten, or am being attributed with posting stats that I did not actually post. I normally refrain from participating in this thread, just a lurker & reader.

My apologies Baa_Baa. I blindly followed BP's assertion that it was you making the quote! Looking back it was actually Blue Skies.

I have edited my post accordingly - referring to Blue Skies stats.

[fungus pudding]

Could someone remind me what post of mine that you are referring to? Either I've forgotten, or am being attributed with posting stats that I did not actually post. I normally refrain from participating in this thread, just a lurker & reader.

Could you include the post, or part of, that you are referring to, for those who try to follow the thread?

[Balance]

Could you include the post, or part of, that you are referring to, for those who try to follow the thread?

For all future reference :

https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/

NZ - 7.14
China - 7.38
Australia - 17.10
US - 15.52
Germany - 9.44
Japan - 9.7

UK - 5.55
France - 5.13

[SBQ]

For all future reference :

https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/

NZ - 7.14
China - 7.38
Australia - 17.10
US - 15.52
Germany - 9.44
Japan - 9.7

UK - 5.55
France - 5.13

The above tells me developed nations have higher levels of CO2 emissions, and if they're situated in more extreme climates, then the higher the CO2 emission they have. No surprise there.

NZ still has to do it's part despite being a small nation with temperate climate. I'm certain the conversion from ICE to EVs will help the reduction of CO2 (providing we don't keep burning imported coal).

Let's build more dams.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Don’t debate with those who have no appreciation of the bigger picture, SBQ.

You are debating with a brick wall.

China is the world's factory - producing goods at reasonable prices vs when the same goods were produced in US, Japan or Europe (or for that matter, NZ & Australia).

Meanwhile, countries like the US with its cheap oil & energy policies are polluting the world and nobody says anything.

All hail the CCCP!

What a post: China is producing junk consumer goods, building ghost cities, producing mountains of excess steel in coal fired plants - steel which is dumped on global markets. And this ‘factory of the world’ will go on increasing its emissions year on year until 2030. And then what? They will start reducing their emissions? Will they? Are we sure?

Meanwhile NZ efficiently produces food. High quality protein. And we must reduce our emissions. Are we not a ‘the factory of the world’as well? What does humanity need more: plastic consumer goods and mass produced junk? Or high quality protein?

[Balance]

All hail the CCCP!

What a post: China is producing junk consumer goods, building ghost cities, producing mountains of excess steel in coal fired plants - steel which is dumped on global markets. And this ‘factory of the world’ will go on increasing its emissions year on year until 2030. And then what? They will start reducing their emissions? Will they? Are we sure?

Meanwhile NZ efficiently produces food. High quality protein. And we must reduce our emissions. Are we not a ‘the factory of the world’as well? What does humanity need more: plastic consumer goods and mass produced junk? Or high quality protein?

Already answered - which part of this post fo you not get?

The world is not a fair place so it’s imperative we have a government which knows how to manage this carbon emission issue - not rush it like the Spin Mistress Cindy is at the expense of NZers.


Accept some basic facts about geopolitics & geoeconomics when it comes to climate change and tackling carbon emissions:

1. NZ needs the world to buy our produce & goods and we are as far away from our main markets as you can get.

We have no choice but to embrace emission controls if we are to avoid sanctions and punitive tariffs & quotas in future.

2. The big countries like US, China & India really do not care a hoot about emission control until they really need to. The world needs them more than they need the world.

It sucks but the above is reality so get used to it.

What is wrong with Cindy & her team of incompetents is that she is putting NZ in the firing line by making it a crusade, accelerating NZ’s contribution without heed of realism.

In other words, building a rod for other countries to beat our back!

It’s like the whole EV thing - Cindy does not have a clue that the world does not produce enough EV to supply NZ - let alone at affordable prices. But that’s what you get with the Kiwibuild Queen. All spin & no delivery.

[Balance]

The Govt part worked fine - they are responsible for the Grid via Transpower. Plenty of capacity there.
Transpower warned the operators (these private companies) that demand would be high - the operators didn't respond enough.

Hold your abhorrence for the generators and demand that the Govt does something about them!
But you can't honestly blame the Govt for this.

Oops! Transpower admits it is at fault. It created the power outage!

Oh dear!

What says you now, dobby41?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/08/transpower-admits-it-messed-up-numbers-after-mistakenly-pulling-power-from-too-many-homes.html

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/126037235/heat-goes-on-transpower-after-wel-networks-reveals-grid-operator-made-huge-error

Cindy & her incompetent Megan miss the Woods for the trees back-pedalling like mad now on who was at fault.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/power-outages-government-backs-down-on-genesis-attack-heat-on-transpower/4OXL4M7OQRYAMM7BFEOEB7UZZE/

Kiwibuild to deliver 10,000 new houses a year anyone?

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/audrey-young-close-to-jacinda-arderns-worst-day-this-term/OBD23TWSJ5EM2DE35IP2VLB244/

Close to Cindy’s worst day as she spun and spun to get ahead of the outrage over the power outage & port vaccination debacle - but spun a web instead around her two ‘best’ performers, Megan ‘miss the’ Wood & Chris ‘port workers have been vaccinated’ Hipkins.

No wonder Cindy looked more and more rattled as the day progressed.

[ynot]

I see there are calls coming from some to lockdown Tauranga tomorrow, with this Delta variant can we afford to wait like Sydney did.
It's likely we dodged a bullet in Tauranga, govt going on about unvaxed port workers whle the elephant in the room was allowing a known covid laden ship to expose local port workers and the wider community. close call.

[iceman]

Oops! Transpower admits it is at fault. It created the power outage!

Oh dear!

What says you now, dobby41?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/08/transpower-admits-it-messed-up-numbers-after-mistakenly-pulling-power-from-too-many-homes.html

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/126037235/heat-goes-on-transpower-after-wel-networks-reveals-grid-operator-made-huge-error

Cindy & her incompetent Megan miss the Woods for the trees back-pedalling like mad now on who was at fault.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/power-outages-government-backs-down-on-genesis-attack-heat-on-transpower/4OXL4M7OQRYAMM7BFEOEB7UZZE/

Kiwibuild to deliver 10,000 new houses a year anyone?

I found it hilarious to hear both the PM and Megan Woods telling Genesis off for not burning more coal. Now it's been shown neither of them had any idea what had happened and shows a complete lack of knowledge on how the industry works

[Bjauck]

I found it hilarious to hear both the PM and Megan Woods telling Genesis off for not burning more coal. Now it's been shown neither of them had any idea what had happened and shows a complete lack of knowledge on how the industry works It has been a flip-flop, fish out of water moment. Fossil fuel is ok if it keeps their voters cosy!

They need to be clear about the chain of command in the power industry.

[dobby41]

What does humanity need more: plastic consumer goods and mass produced junk? Or high quality protein?

Need or want?
The market shows that they want the former and needs don't count.

[ynot]

removed post

[dobby41]

I, too, will remove my post.
Don't want to upset anyone

[Balance]

Need or want?
The market shows that they want the former and needs don't count.

Ask Cindy - she knows all the answers or if not, she will have her multitude of communications staff come up with a spin.

Like going on the offensive against the power generators after the power outage.


Oops - had you swallowing her spin hook, line and sinker, didn’t she? :D

[BlackPeter]

Could someone remind me what post of mine that you are referring to? Either I've forgotten, or am being attributed with posting stats that I did not actually post. I normally refrain from participating in this thread, just a lurker & reader.

Withdraw and apologise - it was Blue Skies' post I was referring to, not one of yours.

Given it was a useful post I hope I didn't hurt too many feelings :):

[Logen Ninefingers]

Need or want?
The market shows that they want the former and needs don't count.

And the market is saying that it wants NZ food products as well. So why are we hammering our farmers when they produce these products efficiently? Here a cattle beast eats grass in a paddock, over there grain gets trucked to some massive barn full of cattle beasts.

We don't have a dome over NZ : the world is an inter-connected place.

It's the same mentality that has us closing coal mines here, and importing shiploads of coal from Indonesia. Are we really going to kid ourselves that this makes us 'cleaner & greener'?

[Balance]

And the market is saying that it wants NZ food products as well. So why are we hammering our farmers when they produce these products efficiently? Here a cattle beast eats grass in a paddock, over there grain gets trucked to some massive barn full of cattle beasts.

We don't have a dome over NZ : the world is an inter-connected place.

It's the same mentality that has us closing coal mines here, and importing shiploads of coal from Indonesia. Are we really going to kid ourselves that this makes us 'cleaner & greener'?

We are with you, LN.

Unfortunately we need the world to buy our produce more than the world needs us to buy from them.

And we have a government with zero experience in selling NZ’s compelling competitive advantage as a farming nation.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Here's a headline I never thought I'd see....

[Balance]

Here's a headline I never thought I'd see....

Headline should be ‘Brain dead takes on robot’?

[Entrep]

Nevermind this https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime-in-the-city-assaults-in-auckland-cbd-skyrocket-post-covid-lockdown/SLT2E7UYOJFTQSXCQ2DTVQKNDM/ and police offers being knocked unconscious, just don't forget to pay the gangs their Koha.

Between actually calling the Police racist and funding gangs, this administration is really doing its best to prevent violence. :t_down:

[Balance]

Nevermind this https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime-in-the-city-assaults-in-auckland-cbd-skyrocket-post-covid-lockdown/SLT2E7UYOJFTQSXCQ2DTVQKNDM/ and police offers being knocked unconscious, just don't forget to pay the gangs their Koha.

Between actually calling the Police racist and funding gangs, this administration is really doing its best to prevent violence. :t_down:

And don't forget that prisoners (especially Maori gang members in prison) must be treated with particular sensitivity and their rights are more important than that of the victims.

[BlackPeter]

Nevermind this https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime-in-the-city-assaults-in-auckland-cbd-skyrocket-post-covid-lockdown/SLT2E7UYOJFTQSXCQ2DTVQKNDM/ and police offers being knocked unconscious, just don't forget to pay the gangs their Koha.

Between actually calling the Police racist and funding gangs, this administration is really doing its best to prevent violence. :t_down:

Brutalisation of parts of the NZ society is clearly a problem - it feels like there are these days more braindead idiots running around than ever - and too many of them quite happy to injure or even kill others as well as themselves - don't forget the "poor" lads who killed themselves last weekend in Timaru, demonstrating the fastest method to turn a dangerous boy racer into an innocent angel.

Having said that - the reasons are complex and I don't think that politicizing the subject is any helpful. I don't think either that any single government could do a lot about that but making things worse with further polarization of the society by playing the tough guy.

Locking up still more people clearly won't help - hey we have in NZ already one of the highest incarceration rates in the western world (from memory competing only with the US for place one - another quite brutalised society torn apart by hate).

Fighting gangs would be like fighting a measles epidemic by surgically removing the red spots of sick people. You don't fight an illness by attacking the symptoms, but by removing the causes.

What our society needs would be again more time for each other, healthier families with one of the grown ups staying at home to look after the children. What we need is people looking after each other and caring ... and yes, given that churches are on the way out we might need some sort of replacement to give people support and direction.

The only way to solve this problem is by having all parts of society working together, not by attacking each other.

We all can start in our families to make things better ... blaming the government won't change anything.

[Balance]

Brutalisation of parts of the NZ society is clearly a problem - it feels like there are these days more braindead idiots running around than ever - and too many of them quite happy to injure or even kill others as well as themselves - don't forget the "poor" lads who killed themselves last weekend in Timaru, demonstrating the fastest method to turn a dangerous boy racer into an innocent angel.

Having said that - the reasons are complex and I don't think that politicizing the subject is any helpful. I don't think either that any single government could do a lot about that but making things worse with further polarization of the society by playing the tough guy.

Locking up still more people clearly won't help - hey we have in NZ already one of the highest incarceration rates in the western world (from memory competing only with the US for place one - another quite brutalised society torn apart by hate).

Fighting gangs would be like fighting a measles epidemic by surgically removing the red spots of sick people. You don't fight an illness by attacking the symptoms, but by removing the causes.

What our society needs would be again more time for each other, healthier families with one of the grown ups staying at home to look after the children. What we need is people looking after each other and caring ... and yes, given that churches are on the way out we might need some sort of replacement to give people support and direction.

The only way to solve this problem is by having all parts of society working together, not by attacking each other.

We all can start in our families to make things better ... blaming the government won't change anything.

In Cindy's immortal words - 'Be Kind'.

And where has that got us?

[Entrep]

Brutalisation of parts of the NZ society is clearly a problem - it feels like there are these days more braindead idiots running around than ever - and too many of them quite happy to injure or even kill others as well as themselves - don't forget the "poor" lads who killed themselves last weekend in Timaru, demonstrating the fastest method to turn a dangerous boy racer into an innocent angel.

Having said that - the reasons are complex and I don't think that politicizing the subject is any helpful. I don't think either that any single government could do a lot about that but making things worse with further polarization of the society by playing the tough guy.

Locking up still more people clearly won't help - hey we have in NZ already one of the highest incarceration rates in the western world (from memory competing only with the US for place one - another quite brutalised society torn apart by hate).

Fighting gangs would be like fighting a measles epidemic by surgically removing the red spots of sick people. You don't fight an illness by attacking the symptoms, but by removing the causes.

What our society needs would be again more time for each other, healthier families with one of the grown ups staying at home to look after the children. What we need is people looking after each other and caring ... and yes, given that churches are on the way out we might need some sort of replacement to give people support and direction.

The only way to solve this problem is by having all parts of society working together, not by attacking each other.

We all can start in our families to make things better ... blaming the government won't change anything.

I 110% agree we need to remove the causes and that there is some huge issues in our society that need to be addressed at the root/cause (ie child poverty etc), but my point was more about Labour + Greens actually enabling this behaviour with their donations, funding, calling cops racist etc. No wonder the gangs have zero respect or fear of the law.

[fungus pudding]

Nevermind this https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime-in-the-city-assaults-in-auckland-cbd-skyrocket-post-covid-lockdown/SLT2E7UYOJFTQSXCQ2DTVQKNDM/ and police offers being knocked unconscious, just don't forget to pay the gangs their Koha.

Between actually calling the Police racist and funding gangs, this administration is really doing its best to prevent violence. :t_down:

Of course the police will not have analysed the asssault figures to see if any particular ethnicity stands out. To even think about that is racist these days.

It's a wonder census-takers are still allowed to collect such data.
Here's an article from the good ol' U.S of A.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/us-census-more-diverse-less-white_n_61155ab0e4b0454ed70b6ed5

[BlackPeter]

In Cindy's immortal words - 'Be Kind'.

And where has that got us?

You have an amazing ability to turn complex problems into simple slogans which don't fit.

Did you borrow this tool from the populists you so much despise?

Having said this - being kind (and firm) is much better than being a tough a***hole destroying any last spark of goodwill in other people.

But hey - brutalisation and increased polarisation are problems which are currently plaguing the whole world.

Just give us a handful of examples for countries in which you would want to live in which are dealing in your view better with this problem than NZ currently does.

[Balance]

You have an amazing ability to turn complex problems into simple slogans which don't fit.

Did you borrow this tool from the populists you so much despise?

Having said this - being kind (and firm) is much better than being a tough a***hole destroying any last spark of goodwill in other people.

But hey - brutalisation and increased polarisation are problems which are currently plaguing the whole world.

Just give us a handful of examples for countries in which you would want to live in which are dealing in your view better with this problem than NZ currently does.

Dealing better with the problem?

China for one.

Australia (Perth) for another.

Singapore for three.

[Bjauck]

In Cindy's immortal words - 'Be Kind'.

And where has that got us? More Dalai Lama I would have thought.
I agree with BP's post. It is not exactly the same as the policies under this government. Do you have a response without the Voodoo Cindy being waved?

[Balance]

More Dalai Lama I would have thought.
I agree with BP's post. Do you have a response without the Voodoo Cindy being waved?

I do except that this thread is about the Labour government?

And who is the Labour government today?

[winner69]

Amazon packing up and future LOTR series being done in the UK

After how many zillions in subsidies and favourable law changes and quarantine spots

The path to a viable film industry doesn't turn on tax credits and government hugs

[Bjauck]

I do except that this thread is about the Labour government?

And who is the Labour government today?
Not just Voodoo Cindy.

[BlackPeter]

China (Chengdu) for one.

Australia (Perth) for another.

Singapore for three.

Interesting.

Looking at your first example - sure, China is a country with a brutal dictatorship happily ignoring the human rights of their own population. I give you that they managed to transfer the risks of being attacked at night by strangers to the risk of being locked up and killed by the police - just for disagreeing with the party. Not sure, this is an option I would prefer.

I don't see how Australia solved the problem of a brutalised and polarized society better than NZ, so I guess you need to help me here to understand, why you think it would be better (not looking at the weather here ...).

And Singapore - this is interesting. Yes, I do know the city quite well and I do like it, too. A bit hot, but otherwise clearly a place where I could as well imagine to live - and I agree that they managed to keep peace and better control and look after their people without taking them too many rights.

I think as well that in the case of Singapore the authoritarian they used to have (Lee Kuan Yew) and the semi-democracy they currently have is probably the best which could have happened to the people. The country clearly feels safe as well as free enough. The only thing is - Singapore did work because they had a benevolent authoritarian at the top. Not many of them around, and I don't know any proven process to select a good one instead of getting one of the plenty bad.

Question is - do you think we could apply the Singaporean model in NZ, and if yes - how, without taking the risk to hand over the country to a crook?

[Logen Ninefingers]

I thought we were a 'team of 5 million' in solidarity to 'unite against COVID-19'?

Now we are told if we are given a vaccination target of say 80%, we will all collectively say "oooeeerrr.....I'll be one of the 20% then".

On what level does this make any sense at all?

We were told we were this magnificent tream of 5 million that were doing everything right to 'make gains' and collectively help each other combat the virus.
Turns out we are actually considered to be a bunch of selfish numpties who will shirk our responsibility the instant we are advised a target.

If you are a committed anti-vaxer, looks like our government thinks you'll show up and get vaccinated as long as there is no target. Is it the idea of a target that is the issue for a vaccine sceptic, or is it the vaccine itself they have an issue with?

Instead of the total bs and downright insulting reason the government has trotted out for 'no target', let's consider for one moment the real reason: they haven't yet met a single target they have set themselves, and they wouldn't be able to meet this one either! Rather than show leadership and give the nation a target to strive to meet, they abrogate responsibility for cynical political reasons.

[fungus pudding]

I thought we were a 'team of 5 million' in solidarity to 'unite against COVID-19'?

Now we are told if we are given a vaccination target of say 80%, we will all collectively say "oooeeerrr.....I'll be one of the 20% then".

On what level does this make any sense at all?

We were told we were this magnificent tream of 5 million that were doing everything right to 'make gains' and collectively help each other combat the virus.
Turns out we are actually considered to be a bunch of selfish numpties who will shirk our responsibility the instant we are advised a target.

If you are a committed anti-vaxer, looks like our government thinks you'll show up and get vaccinated as long as there is no target. Is it the idea of a target that is the issue for a vaccine sceptic, or is it the vaccine itself they have an issue with?

Instead of the total bs and downright insulting reason the government has trotted out for 'no target', let's consider for one moment the real reason: they haven't yet met a single target they have set themselves, and they wouldn't be able to meet this one either! Rather than show leadership and give the nation a target to strive to meet, they abrogate responsibility for cynical political reasons.

Yes. A target would be just another thing to miss.

[dobby41]

What do you think the target should be?
If we set, say, 90% and we got to 87% by Jan 2022 we wouldn't open? Or would we then change the target?
The target should be 100% but open earlier and not tell people what that level would be.

[fungus pudding]

What do you think the target should be?
If we set, say, 90% and we got to 87% by Jan 2022 we wouldn't open? Or would we then change the target?
The target should be 100% but open earlier and not tell people what that level would be.

Of course 100% should be the target but missing the bullseye does not need to be the end of the game.

[Blue Skies]

I thought we were a 'team of 5 million' in solidarity to 'unite against COVID-19'?

Now we are told if we are given a vaccination target of say 80%, we will all collectively say "oooeeerrr.....I'll be one of the 20% then".

On what level does this make any sense at all?

We were told we were this magnificent tream of 5 million that were doing everything right to 'make gains' and collectively help each other combat the virus.
Turns out we are actually considered to be a bunch of selfish numpties who will shirk our responsibility the instant we are advised a target.

If you are a committed anti-vaxer, looks like our government thinks you'll show up and get vaccinated as long as there is no target. Is it the idea of a target that is the issue for a vaccine sceptic, or is it the vaccine itself they have an issue with?

Instead of the total bs and downright insulting reason the government has trotted out for 'no target', let's consider for one moment the real reason: they haven't yet met a single target they have set themselves, and they wouldn't be able to meet this one either! Rather than show leadership and give the nation a target to strive to meet, they abrogate responsibility for cynical political reasons.


Be reassured, it makes perfect sense, just because you don't understand it at first glance doesn't mean its 'BS' as you put it.

Human nature being what it is, we've seen over & over the majority of the population will want to get vaccinated.
But around 60% - 65% is not high enough to effectively fight this virus.

Then there's a much smaller group who are not anti-vax but just complacent, or lazy, or scared of injections, won't get around to it.
Then a still smaller group who are anti-vax.
(Then another group who would desperately like to get vaccinated but due being immunosuppressed the vaccine won't work for).
There's also the very young who may not get vaccinated.

So if the Ministry of Health sets a target of say 80%, you can guarantee the 2nd group who are just complacent or lazy or its too difficult or they're scared of needles, will think it doesn't matter if they don't get vaccinated because they'll just be one of the 20%.

Trouble is we end up with only about 60/65% of the country vaccinated which is not enough.

We see that complacency all the time with a small group of parents who rely on other children getting vaccinated from MMR to protect their own.
They selfishly rely on others getting vaccinated to provide the herd immunity so they don't have to or can't be bothered getting their own kids vaccinated.

All this I feel ties in with the growing swing towards the rights of the individual, freedom without responsibility, the self absorption as opposed to the the sense of being a part of a community, a sense of duty, responsibility & obligations & towards others.

[dobby41]

Of course 100% should be the target but missing the bullseye does not need to be the end of the game.

How much could you miss it by and should that 'new' target be known?
If you disclose the new target then doesn't the old target become redundant?

[dobby41]

All this I feel ties in with the growing swing towards the rights of the individual, freedom without responsibility, the self absorption as opposed to the the sense of being a part of a community, a sense of duty, responsibility & obligations & towards others.

Which is interesting.
Should those who refuse to be vaccinated be given hospital treatment if they get covid?
Save the limited hospital beds for those who do the right thing.
You make your choice so bear the consequences (make your bed and lie in it).

[fungus pudding]

How much could you miss it by and should that 'new' target be known?
If you disclose the new target then doesn't the old target become redundant?

Aim for 100, call it the target. Obviously you get what you get.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Be reassured, it makes perfect sense, just because you don't understand it at first glance doesn't mean its 'BS' as you put it.

Human nature being what it is, we've seen over & over the majority of the population will want to get vaccinated.
But around 60% - 65% is not high enough to effectively fight this virus.

Then there's a much smaller group who are not anti-vax but just complacent, or lazy, or scared of injections, won't get around to it.
Then a still smaller group who are anti-vax.
(Then another group who would desperately like to get vaccinated but due being immunosuppressed the vaccine won't work for).
There's also the very young who may not get vaccinated.

So if the Ministry of Health sets a target of say 80%, you can guarantee the 2nd group who are just complacent or lazy or its too difficult or they're scared of needles, will think it doesn't matter if they don't get vaccinated because they'll just be one of the 20%.

Trouble is we end up with only about 60/65% of the country vaccinated which is not enough.

We see that complacency all the time with a small group of parents who rely on other children getting vaccinated from MMR to protect their own.
They selfishly rely on others getting vaccinated to provide the herd immunity so they don't have to or can't be bothered getting their own kids vaccinated.

All this I feel ties in with the growing swing towards the rights of the individual, freedom without responsibility, the self absorption as opposed to the the sense of being a part of a community, a sense of duty, responsibility & obligations & towards others.

So your belief is that if no target or goal is set, complacent and lazy people will go and get vaccinated? lol.

“Goals are not only absolutely necessary to motivate us. They are essential to really keep us alive.” — Robert H. Schuller

“To the person who does not know where he wants to go there is no favorable wind.” — Seneca

“The victory of success is half won when one gains the habit of setting goals and achieving them.” — Og Mandino

“Setting goals is the first step in turning the invisible into the visible.” — Tony Robbins

“Goals are the fuel in the furnace of achievement.” — Brian Tracy


“We succeed only as we identify in life, or in war, or in anything else, a single overriding objective, and make all other considerations bend to that one objective.” — Dwight D. Eisenhower, speech, April 2, 1957

“A goal properly set is halfway reached.” — Zig Ziglar