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JBmurc
21-10-2020, 10:40 AM
Time for a title change ..NZF is gone never to be seen from again as I'm sure winnie will retire....

What will we see Jacinda and team bring over the next 3yrs ??

They really have full control of NZ >>what will they deliver .... been heaps of BIG Talking of late along with previous years form the RED team

No more blaming the COL for not moving projects forward...

... I feel its like meeting a new Golf player at the pub etc talk up his awesome transformable game over many weeks but never actually seeing him play.... well is time to TEE off >>>

moka
21-10-2020, 11:11 PM
https://milfordasset.com/insights/market-takes-election-in-its-stride-for-now
(https://milfordasset.com/insights/market-takes-election-in-its-stride-for-now)
Market takes election in its stride – for now
The performance of the NZ50 gross index is worth noting in this context. It rose 53 percent in the three-year term of the prior Labour-led coalition against a 36 percent rise for the S&P500 index over the same time-period. Share market performance is not driven by government policy; it reflects a melting pot of influences including interest rates, economic performance, individual company performance and market dynamics. But it is a neat illustration that a left-of-centre New Zealand government hasn’t disrupted market performance, particularly given the US has been governed by a business-friendly President who has tried to take the credit for the performance of his country’s share market.

peat
22-10-2020, 12:41 AM
It is definitely time

https://youtu.be/cwprGyncs0A

iceman
22-10-2020, 07:00 AM
They have made loud noises on reducing inequality in NZ but achieved nothing so far. I suggest income splitting for tax purposes of families with dependent children would be a great start and give many young families a helping hand by effectively reducing the tax they pay, rather than all the handouts.

fungus pudding
22-10-2020, 07:40 AM
They have made loud noises on reducing inequality in NZ but achieved nothing so far. I suggest income splitting for tax purposes of families with dependent children would be a great start and give many young families a helping hand by effectively reducing the tax they pay, rather than all the handouts.

A flat tax would achieve the same as income splitting, and more.

Zaphod
22-10-2020, 03:41 PM
A flat tax would achieve the same as income splitting, and more.

Labour aren't likely to support that though, IMO. They may consider income splitting, but I think they'd probably just increase the eligibility or value of WFF payments. Perhaps they could even come up with another benefit type.

RupertBear
25-10-2020, 09:08 PM
Sooo any thoughts on who will be Deputy PM...? And what about Health Minister....surely it wont be David Clarke?! :confused:

moka
26-10-2020, 12:28 AM
Sooo any thoughts on who will be Deputy PM...? And what about Health Minister....surely it wont be David Clarke?! :confused:
Good question - deputy PM Grant Robertson?

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says Labour's deputy PM will be the deputy leader - but is that Kelvin Davis?
This morning Ardern said she had no intention in moving Davis from the deputy leadership but ultimately that would be a caucus decision.
Going into caucus this morning, Davis told reporters that he had had discussions with Ardern but would not reveal any details.
Asked if he was up against Grant Robertson for the job, he said: "I'm not up against anybody."
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-says-labours-deputy-pm-will-be-the-deputy-leader-but-is-that-kelvin-davis/ODEMJYIKQJWF4X36DBTGQ4WASM/

moka
26-10-2020, 01:19 AM
Adern said a transformational government was one that brought about lasting changes rather than one that implemented radical changes.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-says-labours-deputy-pm-will-be-the-deputy-leader-but-is-that-kelvin-davis/ODEMJYIKQJWF4X36DBTGQ4WASM/
(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-says-labours-deputy-pm-will-be-the-deputy-leader-but-is-that-kelvin-davis/ODEMJYIKQJWF4X36DBTGQ4WASM/)
https://theconversation.com/nz-election-2020-jacinda-ardern-promised-transformation-instead-the-times-transformed-her-142900
(https://theconversation.com/nz-election-2020-jacinda-ardern-promised-transformation-instead-the-times-transformed-her-142900)
The rhetoric of transformation has been replaced by the language of recovery.

Yet transformation is not far off the mark, especially where Ardern herself is concerned. Three years ago she was the newly minted leader of her party and something of a political curiosity. Many doubted she had the ability to save her party from an electoral thrashing, let alone become prime minister.
Since then, she has become a mother, led the country through a series of crises, and made more hard calls and tough decisions than any New Zealand prime minister in recent memory. She has become a seasoned leader — and one of the most popular prime ministers in the nation’s history.

Pragmatism over ideology
Ardern’s personal trajectory mirrors — and to some degree has driven — a shift in the tone of New Zealand politics. Transformation is probably too strong a word for it, but something is happening and it is reflected in Ardern’s approach to leadership.

The prime minister appeals less to conviction than to disposition. Her approach resonates with people for whom politics is fundamentally relational rather than ideological.
It is Ardern’s poise under pressure, calmness and ability not to rise to anything faintly resembling bait that has deeply resonated.

Ardern is no ideologue. She gives people who don’t agree with her party’s policies permission to vote for her. It’s the kind of leadership that can change what counts as political common sense, and it appeals to a lot of people in times of stress and uncertainty.

Balance
26-10-2020, 08:59 AM
Adern said a transformational government was one that brought about lasting changes rather than one that implemented radical changes.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-says-labours-deputy-pm-will-be-the-deputy-leader-but-is-that-kelvin-davis/ODEMJYIKQJWF4X36DBTGQ4WASM/
(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-says-labours-deputy-pm-will-be-the-deputy-leader-but-is-that-kelvin-davis/ODEMJYIKQJWF4X36DBTGQ4WASM/)
https://theconversation.com/nz-election-2020-jacinda-ardern-promised-transformation-instead-the-times-transformed-her-142900
(https://theconversation.com/nz-election-2020-jacinda-ardern-promised-transformation-instead-the-times-transformed-her-142900)
The rhetoric of transformation has been replaced by the language of recovery.

Yet transformation is not far off the mark, especially where Ardern herself is concerned. Three years ago she was the newly minted leader of her party and something of a political curiosity. Many doubted she had the ability to save her party from an electoral thrashing, let alone become prime minister.
Since then, she has become a mother, led the country through a series of crises, and made more hard calls and tough decisions than any New Zealand prime minister in recent memory. She has become a seasoned leader — and one of the most popular prime ministers in the nation’s history.

Pragmatism over ideology
Ardern’s personal trajectory mirrors — and to some degree has driven — a shift in the tone of New Zealand politics. Transformation is probably too strong a word for it, but something is happening and it is reflected in Ardern’s approach to leadership.

The prime minister appeals less to conviction than to disposition. Her approach resonates with people for whom politics is fundamentally relational rather than ideological.
It is Ardern’s poise under pressure, calmness and ability not to rise to anything faintly resembling bait that has deeply resonated.

Ardern is no ideologue. She gives people who don’t agree with her party’s policies permission to vote for her. It’s the kind of leadership that can change what counts as political common sense, and it appeals to a lot of people in times of stress and uncertainty.

Yet another populist in other words - all talk and no substance & no delivery.

Enjoy!

jonu
26-10-2020, 09:12 AM
Adern said a transformational government was one that brought about lasting changes rather than one that implemented radical changes.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-says-labours-deputy-pm-will-be-the-deputy-leader-but-is-that-kelvin-davis/ODEMJYIKQJWF4X36DBTGQ4WASM/
(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-says-labours-deputy-pm-will-be-the-deputy-leader-but-is-that-kelvin-davis/ODEMJYIKQJWF4X36DBTGQ4WASM/)
https://theconversation.com/nz-election-2020-jacinda-ardern-promised-transformation-instead-the-times-transformed-her-142900
(https://theconversation.com/nz-election-2020-jacinda-ardern-promised-transformation-instead-the-times-transformed-her-142900)
The rhetoric of transformation has been replaced by the language of recovery.
.............


The prime minister appeals less to conviction than to disposition. Her approach resonates with people for whom politics is fundamentally relational rather than ideological.
It is Ardern’s poise under pressure, calmness and ability not to rise to anything faintly resembling bait that has deeply resonated.

Ardern is no ideologue. She gives people who don’t agree with her party’s policies permission to vote for her. It’s the kind of leadership that can change what counts as political common sense, and it appeals to a lot of people in times of stress and uncertainty.

I would translate this to mean she appeals to those who don't look too closely.....she has a shiny veneer without a substance that can stand serious scrutiny. This is why I view her as incredibly cynical. She knows exactly what she is doing in her manipulation of the masses who don't look at her too closely.

Promise a lot and deliver bugger all.

Ramp up the fear.

Dominate the media space with daily briefings.

Frame the narrative, combined with the fear and propaganda barrage.

Tony Blair was once hugely popular in the UK. Now he is loathed. Ardern's worm will turn. The sooner the better.

RupertBear
26-10-2020, 09:20 AM
Good question - deputy PM Grant Robertson?

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says Labour's deputy PM will be the deputy leader - but is that Kelvin Davis?
This morning Ardern said she had no intention in moving Davis from the deputy leadership but ultimately that would be a caucus decision.
Going into caucus this morning, Davis told reporters that he had had discussions with Ardern but would not reveal any details.
Asked if he was up against Grant Robertson for the job, he said: "I'm not up against anybody."
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-says-labours-deputy-pm-will-be-the-deputy-leader-but-is-that-kelvin-davis/ODEMJYIKQJWF4X36DBTGQ4WASM/

I would prefer Grant Robertson, Kelvin Davis hasnt impressed me at all.

Medical people seem to think David Clarke has been a good Health Minister and he does a lot behind the scenes. Although he romped back in in his Dunedin electorate, in spite of his Covid Lockdown blunders, I dont think it would go down especially well if he was reinstated as Health Minister. I was wondering if Ayesha Verrall would be a starter? I confess I know very little about her

Balance
26-10-2020, 09:28 AM
Sooo any thoughts on who will be Deputy PM...? And what about Health Minister....surely it wont be David Clarke?! :confused:

DPM will most likely be a Maori - Cindy owes them big time, especially now with the Maori Party getting back with a foothold in Parliament.

As with most things about Cindy, it’s about appearance over substance.

couta1
26-10-2020, 09:30 AM
Yet another populist in other words - all talk and no substance & no delivery.

Enjoy! The Queen of spin, says a lot but says nothing at all that actually has any real meaning.

fungus pudding
26-10-2020, 09:33 AM
I would prefer Grant Robertson, Kelvin Davis hasnt impressed me at all.

Medical people seem to think David Clarke has been a good Health Minister and he does a lot behind the scenes. Although he romped back in in his Dunedin electorate, in spite of his Covid Lockdown blunders, I dont think it would go down especially well if he was reinstated as Health Minister. I was wondering if Ayesha Verrall would be a starter? I confess I know very little about her

What surveys show most people think Clarke has done a good job???? A bandycoot could win in Dunedin, as long as it was painted red. I think Chip seems to be doing well. I'd like to see him remain in that position, and get him as far away from education as possible.

RupertBear
26-10-2020, 09:56 AM
No surveys fungus just word amongst the medical professionals I know in Dunedin who have worked closely with him.

I agree Chris Hipkins appears to be doing a good job and I would be happy for him to remain in that position

Blue Skies
26-10-2020, 03:02 PM
No surveys fungus just word amongst the medical professionals I know in Dunedin who have worked closely with him.

I agree Chris Hipkins appears to be doing a good job and I would be happy for him to remain in that position


Chris Hipkins is super bright, highly intelligent, absolutely run rings around most MP's & hense highly competent.
But hasn't quite got the easy going relaxed & relatable charm of Grant Robertson who is also very bright & the obvious eventual future leader of the Labour Party.

couta1
26-10-2020, 03:13 PM
Chris Hipkins is super bright, highly intelligent, absolutely run rings around most MP's & hense highly competent.
But hasn't quite got the easy going relaxed & relatable charm of Grant Robertson who is also very bright & the obvious eventual future leader of the Labour Party. Hipkins does stuff all in his local electorate in which I live, big contrast to the electorate down in Hutt South where Chris Bishop is highly prominent and hard working at the coal face.

RupertBear
26-10-2020, 03:16 PM
Hipkins does stuff all in his local electorate in which I live, big contrast to the electorate down in Hutt South where Chris Bishop is highly prominent and hard working at the coal face.

Well to be fair Chris Hipkins has had a lot on his plate with all this Covid stuff.

fungus pudding
26-10-2020, 04:08 PM
No surveys fungus just word amongst the medical professionals I know in Dunedin who have worked closely with him.
I agree Chris Hipkins appears to be doing a good job and I would be happy for him to remain in that position


Well, at least we agree on something.:p

artemis
26-10-2020, 04:14 PM
Well to be fair Chris Hipkins has had a lot on his plate with all this Covid stuff.

Heh, to be fair he has only been doing that stuff since July.

Blue Skies
26-10-2020, 04:47 PM
Hipkins does stuff all in his local electorate in which I live, big contrast to the electorate down in Hutt South where Chris Bishop is highly prominent and hard working at the coal face.


Chris Hipkins was Minister for Education which is a massive portfolio, Health also massive portfolio & managing Covid response.
Anyone who actually knows what that involves was incredibly impressed ( including opposition MP's). How he manages that workload & keeping abreast across all those areas was quite literally stunning.

With no disrespect, of course wouldn't expect Joe Public to necessarily understand that, or respect that kind of powerful intellect.

Chris Bishop was just an opposition MP, a lightweight by comparison. ( one of the key plotters who undermined Bridges & engineered the disastrous Todd Muller coup.)

couta1
26-10-2020, 04:47 PM
Heh, to be fair he has only been doing that stuff since July. Exactly and Labour would win the electorate with a Chimp standing, its just that red and moreso now that Naenae has been added to the mix.

lissica
26-10-2020, 09:57 PM
Medical people seem to think David Clarke has been a good Health Minister and he does a lot behind the scenes. Although he romped back in in his Dunedin electorate, in spite of his Covid Lockdown blunders, I dont think it would go down especially well if he was reinstated as Health Minister.


The doctor forums have been absolutely scathing of former health minister David Clarke.



I was wondering if Ayesha Verrall would be a starter? I confess I know very little about her

She is certainly capable, but I doubt they would let a first term MP into the lions den.

RupertBear
26-10-2020, 10:21 PM
The doctor forums have been absolutely scathing of former health minister David Clarke.



She is certainly capable, but I doubt they would let a first term MP into the lions den.

Thanks for that.

I am interested to hear doctor forums are scathing of David Clarke. That doesnt really surprise me even though I know local (Dunedin) medical people who have worked with him and rate him highly.

And yes I agree Ayesha Verrall probably isnt ready for the lions den.

who would be your pick?

lissica
27-10-2020, 09:33 AM
Thanks for that.

I am interested to hear doctor forums are scathing of David Clarke. That doesnt really surprise me even though I know local (Dunedin) medical people who have worked with him and rate him highly.

And yes I agree Ayesha Verrall probably isnt ready for the lions den.

who would be your pick?

I don't know Ayesha well, but I did go to school with her. She was OUSA president, and has been involved in Politics at some level or other since University. Every past OUSA president wants to be a Labour MP- they have three currently serving.

There are two other doctors (Gaurav Sharma and Neru Leavasa). The former is on the GP training programme, while the latter is a specialist GP.

Not that doctors necessarily make good health ministers...

RupertBear
27-10-2020, 10:19 AM
I don't know Ayesha well, but I did go to school with her. She was OUSA president, and has been involved in Politics at some level or other since University. Every past OUSA president wants to be a Labour MP- they have three currently serving.

There are two other doctors (Gaurav Sharma and Neru Leavasa). The former is on the GP training programme, while the latter is a specialist GP.

Not that doctors necessarily make good health ministers...

Quite true but having a working knowledge about the intricacies of the health system is probably helpful.

Interestingly David Clark does not have a medical degree, he has a Bachelor Degree with Honours in Theology and a PhD. He has also been a Presbyterian Minister. So he has quite an interesting background but not one in medicine as far as I am aware.

iceman
02-11-2020, 01:03 PM
Not a good start for the PM. Making another Captain's call last week saying the Deputy PM would be the Leader of the Labour Party, only to be undermined by Kelvin Davis who wants to stay on a Labour Deputy Leader but not Deputy PM :-):)

iceman
02-11-2020, 01:34 PM
PM's portfolio & who's doing what
Ardern will be Minister for Child Poverty Reduction, and Arts Culture and Heritage will go to Carmel Sepuloni.

Grant Robertson has been named as deputy Prime Minister and Andrew Little as Health Minister.

After later term's KiwiBuild fiasco, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern demoted Phil Twyford - who will be a minister outside Cabinet, with the disarmament portfolio.

Ardern revealed that Robertson will also keep the Finance portfolio and to be given Infrastructure so he can oversee the roll out of the $12 billion NZ upgrade programme and the $3 billion shovel-ready fund.

Chris Hipkins will be Minister for Covid-19 Response, which will include many facets including testing, managed isolation, and border management. He will keep Education and Leader of the House.


Little will be in charge of the health sector reforms, and be assisted by Associate Health Ministers including Peeni Henare, who will also be Defence Minister.

Henare moves into Cabinet as does newcomer Ayesha Verrall, who will be Associate Health Minister, Minister for Seniors and Minister for Food Safety.

Kelvin Davis remains the party's deputy leader.

Davis revealed this morning that he didn't want the deputy prime ministership.

Davis will keep Crown Maori relations and take on Minister for Children with responsibility for Oranga Tamariki. He retains Associate Education and Corrections.

Megan Woods keeps Housing and Energy and Resources and Science and Innovation, and she picks up Associate Finance.

David Parker keeps Environment and picks up Revenue, as well as a new portfolio of Oceans and Fisheries.

Stuart Nash will have Economic and Regional Development, Tourism, and Forestry, and he will keep Small Businesses.

Damien O'Connor picks up Trade and Export Growth as well as keeping Agriculture.

Sepuloni will keep Social Development, and Employment will be rolled into this.

Nanaia Mahuta will be Foreign Affairs Minister. She is New Zealand's first female Foreign Affairs Minister.

Poto Williams will be Police Minister and move into Cabinet.

Kris Faafoi retains Immigration and Broadcasting, and also becomes Justice Minister.

Willie Jackson will be in Cabinet and have Maori Development.

Jan Tinetti will have Women and Internal Affairs and Associate Education.

Michael Wood will be Employment Relations Minister, while Kiri Allen will be Minister of Conservation.

Commerce and Consumer Affairs and Statistics will be David Clark's portfolios, who returns to Cabinet.

Meka Whaitiri will be a minister again, including responsibility for animal welfare.

Rino Tirikatene will be Oceans under-secretary, and Deborah Russell will be under-secretary for Revenue.

jonu
02-11-2020, 02:38 PM
Does anyone other than Ardern have confidence in Mahuta as Minister of Foreign Affairs?

Interesting to see Little gone from Justice, which is some small relief.

As for the rightly demoted Twyford....what on earth was he doing at No.4 on the list? What dirt does he have?

iceman
02-11-2020, 03:51 PM
Does anyone other than Ardern have confidence in Mahuta as Minister of Foreign Affairs?

Interesting to see Little gone from Justice, which is some small relief.

As for the rightly demoted Twyford....what on earth was he doing at No.4 on the list? What dirt does he have?

It sure was the surprise of the day !!

RupertBear
02-11-2020, 04:37 PM
It sure was the surprise of the day !!

I agree. Nor did I see Andrew Little for Health Minister :mellow:

moka
02-11-2020, 06:17 PM
PM's portfolio & who's doing what
Ardern will be Minister for Child Poverty Reduction, and Arts Culture and Heritage will go to Carmel Sepuloni.

Grant Robertson has been named as deputy Prime Minister and Andrew Little as Health Minister.

After later term's KiwiBuild fiasco, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern demoted Phil Twyford - who will be a minister outside Cabinet, with the disarmament portfolio.

Ardern revealed that Robertson will also keep the Finance portfolio and to be given Infrastructure so he can oversee the roll out of the $12 billion NZ upgrade programme and the $3 billion shovel-ready fund.

Chris Hipkins will be Minister for Covid-19 Response, which will include many facets including testing, managed isolation, and border management. He will keep Education and Leader of the House.


Little will be in charge of the health sector reforms, and be assisted by Associate Health Ministers including Peeni Henare, who will also be Defence Minister.

Henare moves into Cabinet as does newcomer Ayesha Verrall, who will be Associate Health Minister, Minister for Seniors and Minister for Food Safety.

Kelvin Davis remains the party's deputy leader.

Davis revealed this morning that he didn't want the deputy prime ministership.

Davis will keep Crown Maori relations and take on Minister for Children with responsibility for Oranga Tamariki. He retains Associate Education and Corrections.

Megan Woods keeps Housing and Energy and Resources and Science and Innovation, and she picks up Associate Finance.

David Parker keeps Environment and picks up Revenue, as well as a new portfolio of Oceans and Fisheries.

Stuart Nash will have Economic and Regional Development, Tourism, and Forestry, and he will keep Small Businesses.

Damien O'Connor picks up Trade and Export Growth as well as keeping Agriculture.

Sepuloni will keep Social Development, and Employment will be rolled into this.

Nanaia Mahuta will be Foreign Affairs Minister. She is New Zealand's first female Foreign Affairs Minister.

Poto Williams will be Police Minister and move into Cabinet.

Kris Faafoi retains Immigration and Broadcasting, and also becomes Justice Minister.

Willie Jackson will be in Cabinet and have Maori Development.

Jan Tinetti will have Women and Internal Affairs and Associate Education.

Michael Wood will be Employment Relations Minister, while Kiri Allen will be Minister of Conservation.

Commerce and Consumer Affairs and Statistics will be David Clark's portfolios, who returns to Cabinet.

Meka Whaitiri will be a minister again, including responsibility for animal welfare.

Rino Tirikatene will be Oceans under-secretary, and Deborah Russell will be under-secretary for Revenue.

Great choices in my opinion - Andrew Little for Health. I am very impressed with the cabinet line-up. Good to see Ayesha Verrall straight into cabinet. I am glad I didn’t have to make the decisions.

moka
02-11-2020, 06:28 PM
Not a good start for the PM. Making another Captain's call last week saying the Deputy PM would be the Leader of the Labour Party, only to be undermined by Kelvin Davis who wants to stay on a Labour Deputy Leader but not Deputy PM :-):)I don’t see it as undermining, that wording puts a negative slant on the decision. It shows the PM can be flexible and adapt when the situation changes. Rules are not fixed in concrete. Great of Kelvin Davis to acknowledge that the job of Deputy PM could be done better by someone else, rather than being on an ego trip and staying in the position. It’s a bit like when Andrew Little stepped aside as PM for Jacinda and that has worked out well. It would be good if Sir Tim Shadbolt also saw the light and realised someone else could do his job better, and moved on -“Let’s keep moving.”

fungus pudding
02-11-2020, 06:31 PM
Great choices in my opinion - Andrew Little for Health. I am very impressed with the cabinet line-up. Good to see Ayesha Verrall straight into cabinet. I am glad I didn’t have to make the decisions.

You are seriously deluded, or joking. Deluded is my guess.

justakiwi
02-11-2020, 07:37 PM
And you are just downright rude sometimes. Maybe try to look at things from a different perspective once in a while, or at the very least, respect the fact that others can


You are seriously deluded, or joking. Deluded is my guess.

moka
02-11-2020, 08:00 PM
You are seriously deluded, or joking. Deluded is my guess.Very arrogant of you to assume that I am deluded just because I have a different opinion from yours. Who says your opinion is right? The majority of people voted for Labour so they have confidence in the government, or at least more confidence in Labour than in National in running the country.

moka
02-11-2020, 08:09 PM
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/02-11-2020/the-covid-election-is-over-here-comes-the-covid-cabinet/
Jacinda Ardern has unveiled a cabinet line-up with plenty of surprises, and a fair bit of history-making.

Following what she deemed the Covid election, Jacinda Ardern has appointed her Covid cabinet. The group contains a number of firsts, including what could be the world’s first cabinet minister dedicated to beating Covid-19.

The new cabinet, built around a health team to battle the coronavirus and an economic team to rebuild from it, will represent a substantial change in the character of the country’s government after Labour’s resounding victory last month.
Labour deputy leader Kelvin Davis had been offered the role of deputy prime minister, twice, but turned it down. He’s now the top ranked Māori voice in cabinet, responsible for corrections, children, oranga tamariki and Māori crown relations. “I think Jacinda and Grant are the dream team,” he told reporters today.

Nanaia Mahuta is the unexpected pick to take over as New Zealand’s first female foreign affairs minister. The country’s face around the world will now be a wahine Māori wearing a moko kauae.
Following three years of New Zealand First leader Winston Peters as foreign minister, she’ll have big shoes to fill. Peters had an impressive contact list and involved the country in big conversations well above what its small size would suggest. Mahuta will also hold the very non-foreign job of local government minister.

Little lost the justice portfolio to Kris Faafoi. Nearly all the judicial ministries are now in the hands of Māori MPs.
David Parker is one of the few of Ardern’s inner circle not to pick up a new job. He’s still attorney general and environment minister. However, he’s been given the momentous new task of scrapping the resource management act and designing new rules to govern how nearly everything is planned and built in New Zealand.

fungus pudding
02-11-2020, 08:12 PM
Very arrogant of you to assume that I am deluded just because I have a different opinion from yours. Who says your opinion is right? The majority of people voted for Labour so they have confidence in the government, or at least more confidence in Labour than in National in running the country.

Maybe I'm wrong but I assumed you were looking for a bite. I thought it was a wind-up. I fully expected to see Twyford listed in the same post. I very much doubt that you expected anyone to agree with you

moka
02-11-2020, 08:17 PM
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/02-11-2020/a-momentous-day-for-maori-at-the-cabinet-table-as-never-before/
A momentous day for Māori – with five Māori in cabinet and another three Māori MPs in the wider executive - at the cabinet table as never before.

Labour’s new cabinet gives more power to more Māori ministers across a whole range of areas than we have ever seen before. No longer are Māori only given Māori-specific roles. Māori are at the table, in numbers, in every major policy area including education, health, and housing.

We have the first wahine minister of foreign affairs, recognising Nanaia Mahuta’s achievements as a consensus-builder. That is an immense honour and a display of belief in her from Jacinda Ardern.

We saw some good progress for Māori in Labour’s first term – like fees free apprenticeships and training, higher wages and benefits, Best Start and Winter Energy Payments, Healthy Homes Guarantee and more state housing, as well as the creation of the minister for Māori-Crown relations. But there’s lots more to do.

jonu
02-11-2020, 08:24 PM
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/02-11-2020/a-momentous-day-for-maori-at-the-cabinet-table-as-never-before/
A momentous day for Māori – with five Māori in cabinet and another three Māori MPs in the wider executive - at the cabinet table as never before.

Labour’s new cabinet gives more power to more Māori ministers across a whole range of areas than we have ever seen before. No longer are Māori only given Māori-specific roles. Māori are at the table, in numbers, in every major policy area including education, health, and housing.

We have the first wahine minister of foreign affairs, recognising Nanaia Mahuta’s achievements as a consensus-builder. That is an immense honour and a display of belief in her from Jacinda Ardern.

We saw some good progress for Māori in Labour’s first term – like fees free apprenticeships and training, higher wages and benefits, Best Start and Winter Energy Payments, Healthy Homes Guarantee and more state housing, as well as the creation of the minister for Māori-Crown relations. But there’s lots more to do.

Labour has had the Maori seats for most of the last 90 years. Do you reckon they have delivered for Maori?

blackcap
02-11-2020, 08:44 PM
We have the first wahine minister of foreign affairs, recognising Nanaia Mahuta’s achievements as a consensus-builder. That is an immense honour and a display of belief in her from Jacinda Ardern.

.

Cringe inducing to have that lazy minister as our foreign affairs minister. I will leave it at that.

fungus pudding
02-11-2020, 09:03 PM
Cringe inducing to have that lazy cow as our foreign affairs minister. I will leave it at that.

What have you got against cows? Very important for our economy.

RupertBear
02-11-2020, 09:03 PM
Maybe I'm wrong but I assumed you were looking for a bite. I thought it was a wind-up. I fully expected to see Twyford listed in the same post. I very much doubt that you expected anyone to agree with you

Moka has never come across to me as someone who would bait people looking for a bite. Moka comes across as a pretty decent honest poster that doesnt play games to me. And I agree with Moka they are pretty good choices IMO

RupertBear
02-11-2020, 09:04 PM
Posted twice.....

blackcap
02-11-2020, 09:08 PM
What have you got against cows? Very important for our economy.

Nothing actually, quite fond of cows, they provide milk and steak, and have adjusted my post accordingly. Not nice of me to denigrate the bovine family like that.

moka
02-11-2020, 09:34 PM
Cringe inducing to have that lazy minister as our foreign affairs minister. I will leave it at that.I see you edited your post which is very insulting. Do you have any facts that support your claim that she is lazy or is just based on her appearance?

Balance
02-11-2020, 09:47 PM
Cringe inducing to have that lazy cow as our foreign affairs minister. I will leave it at that.

Agreed.

The foreign affairs minister presents a face & image of NZ to the world.

For all of Winston’s faults, he represented NZ well whenever he was foreign minister - well spoken, suave and knowledgeable.

Nanaia’s appointment shows the lack of depth in the team of incompetents. What did she achieve in the last 3 years as a minister?

Beggars belief to have someone like her represents NZ’s overseas.

couta1
02-11-2020, 10:16 PM
Agreed.

The foreign affairs minister presents a face & image of NZ to the world.

For all of Winston’s faults, he represented NZ well whenever he was foreign minister - well spoken, suave and knowledgeable.

Nanaia’s appointment shows the lack of depth in the team of incompetents. What did she achieve in the last 3 years as a minister?

Beggars belief to have someone like her represents NZ’s overseas. She certainly doesn't inspire any confidence whatsoever.

moka
02-11-2020, 10:16 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/429700/restocking-the-cabinet-ardern-spring-clean-packs-surprise-or-two
Restocking the Cabinet: Ardern spring clean packs surprise or two
But to those who have not fared so well.
Jenny Salesa is out as a minister altogether.
RNZ understands a combination of underperformance and the political risk of a very high staff turnover in her office were the deciding factors.

Phil Twyford is the other demotion - while still a minister he's out of Cabinet and loses transport. It looks like he's very much on the way out, with no signal from Ardern he has a potential path back to Cabinet.

Overall the structure of the Covid ministers makes sense, to have details man Chris Hipkins oversee the nuts and bolts of the response without having to become enmired in the broader Health portfolio; that's been taken up by Andrew Little with back up from infectious disease specialist Verrall.

One person who did not make it as a minister was Keiran McAnulty; he'll become senior whip and with 64 MPs (before specials are counted) keeping everything under control with such a big caucus will almost be worthy of a ministerial position in itself.

fungus pudding
02-11-2020, 11:52 PM
I see you edited your post which is very insulting. Do you have any facts that support your claim that she is lazy or is just based on her appearance?

Quite right Moka. His original description was much less insulting, and far more accurate when he called her 'a lazy cow'. Beats me why he changed it.

fungus pudding
03-11-2020, 02:12 AM
Newly appointed minister hits the world stage via CNN

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/02/asia/new-zealand-foreign-minister-intl-hnk/index.html

Bjauck
03-11-2020, 06:56 AM
Agreed.

The foreign affairs minister presents a face & image of NZ to the world. ... The appointment underlines a visual determination to step out from the shadow of post-colonialism. Removal of the union flag and a post-Elizabethan republic next?

Maybe it will take the attention away from the fact that they have left taxation reform in the too hard bin.

Balance
03-11-2020, 07:24 AM
The appointment underlines a visual determination to step out from the shadow of post-colonialism. Removal of the union flag and a post-Elizabethan republic next?

Maybe it will take the attention away from the fact that they have left taxation reform in the too hard bin.

Good points, Bjauck.

The cabinet is certainly more representative of the NZ of today and it is a good thing to move the country towards a republic. Question is - have the right people been picked for the ministerial positions or is it diversity for its own sake?

Not just taxation return but notice how quiet Cindy has been about the housing market amd how prices there are galloping way out of reach of the average family & first home buyers?

Bjauck
03-11-2020, 07:32 AM
...
Not just taxation return but notice how quiet Cindy has been about the housing market amd how prices there are galloping way out of reach of the average family & first home buyers? Taxation reform and housing affordability, if not supply, have links..

iceman
03-11-2020, 08:03 AM
I don’t see it as undermining, that wording puts a negative slant on the decision. It shows the PM can be flexible and adapt when the situation changes. Rules are not fixed in concrete. Great of Kelvin Davis to acknowledge that the job of Deputy PM could be done better by someone else, rather than being on an ego trip and staying in the position. It’s a bit like when Andrew Little stepped aside as PM for Jacinda and that has worked out well. It would be good if Sir Tim Shadbolt also saw the light and realised someone else could do his job better, and moved on -“Let’s keep moving.”

moka she has admitted Davis told her BEFORE the election that he did not want to be Deputy PM. He has never changed this view. Why was she telling media last week that the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party would be the Deputy PM ? That is a straight out lie, like her pre-election rubbishing of National's plans for a "COVID ministry" that she has now implemented and her rubbishing of National's plan to offer state houses for sale to tenants, something she has been doing secretly for the last 3 years. She simply just continuously lies to us and gets away with.

Apart from Mahuta, Clark and Twyford, I think the PM has come up with a reasonably strong team and I am very pleased she has given infrastructure to Robertson. We may finally see something happen in that field after the disaster 3 years under Twyford.

fungus pudding
03-11-2020, 09:18 AM
moka she has admitted Davis told her BEFORE the election that he did not want to be Deputy PM. He has never changed this view. Why was she telling media last week that the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party would be the Deputy PM ? That is a straight out lie, like her pre-election rubbishing of National's plans for a "COVID ministry" that she has now implemented and her rubbishing of National's plan to offer state houses for sale to tenants, something she has been doing secretly for the last 3 years. She simply just continuously lies to us and gets away with.

Apart from Mahuta, Clark and Twyford, I think the PM has come up with a reasonably strong team and I am very pleased she has given infrastructure to Robertson. We may finally see something happen in that field after the disaster 3 years under Twyford.

Mahuta is actually one of the brighter ones. But Twyford and Clark are certainly out of their depth.

iceman
03-11-2020, 09:21 AM
Mahuta is actually one of the brighter ones. But Twyford and Clark are certainly out of their depth.

Have some personal experiences with her whanau many years ago. Not impressed with the work ethic.

fungus pudding
03-11-2020, 10:12 AM
Have some personal experiences with her whanau many years ago. Not impressed with the work ethic.

You're surely not suggesting Jacinda is scraping the bottom of her talent barrel? Or is it just a bit of token racial balance? Surely not! I'll stick to my claim that she is one of the brighter Labour MPs. Take that however you see it!

jonu
03-11-2020, 10:35 AM
Labour has had the Maori seats for most of the last 90 years. Do you reckon they have delivered for Maori?

I'm surprised no one has has commented on this. Certainly wouldn't expect Labourites to give it any airtime, they've played Maori for suckers for nearly a century. It's a shame the Maori Party was seen to be too close to National.

winner69
03-11-2020, 10:49 AM
Those who think Mohuta Not a good choice out in force on social media ...like:

But worth nothing perhaps the Herald's Mood of the Boardroom ratings of ministers. Mahuta ranked 16/19 in 2018, 15/20 in 2019, and this year (when the included minister outside Cabinet) 18/25, Most of those rated worse than her are not even ministers any longer.

Sgt Pepper
03-11-2020, 12:31 PM
You're surely not suggesting Jacinda is scraping the bottom of her talent barrel? Or is it just a bit of token racial balance? Surely not! I'll stick to my claim that she is one of the brighter Labour MPs. Take that however you see it!

I concede that representation and balance are important, but should the optics of diversity be more importance than competence?? At what point do Maori become over represented, which ,it could be argued is fast approaching.
I would make one observation about the CVs of many who are on party lists today. This observation may be unfair . Many seem to be on the conveyor belt of professional politicians. Many "have worked in the sector". It seems mere mortal like me, who are male have fronted up to an employer since 18, paid taxes and raised families etc, apparently have nothing to offer. What are others opinions, or is Sgt Pepper turning into an over 60 male grump??

JBmurc
03-11-2020, 12:33 PM
Good points, Bjauck.

The cabinet is certainly more representative of the NZ of today and it is a good thing to move the country towards a republic. Question is - have the right people been picked for the ministerial positions or is it diversity for its own sake?

Not just taxation return but notice how quiet Cindy has been about the housing market amd how prices there are galloping way out of reach of the average family & first home buyers?

As we seen for the last three years Jacinda will go missing on many major issues facing this country ... how much longer can we have the old "it was the last guys fault" you know National were in for 9yrs thats why we have expensive homes ... as homes never went up under 9yrs of Labour 1999-2008 now did they ??

JBmurc
03-11-2020, 12:38 PM
https://twitter.com/matpottinger/status/1273924237007286272?s=20

Watch as Western countries compete for the unenviable position of having had the largest increase in real house prices since 1980....

And is only to 2016 !! we purchased a house here in Cromwell thats increased some 60% since then would be great to see it updated to show the pure madness I don't think will end in the near term..

Labour must know how overpriced we have become on the world stage...and now having muzzled the Greens she can try and distance herself from the train-wreak coming down the line when we get a credit downgrade on the other side of the COVID madness

Balance
03-11-2020, 06:08 PM
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/ldr/429770/government-s-time-to-deliver-on-housing-promises

Plenty of promises from Cindy to sort out housing and so far, the crisis has become chaos under her watch.

Soon to become an unmitigated disaster - but she will be off to the UN by then with her hijab.

Balance
03-11-2020, 06:45 PM
Have some personal experiences with her whanau many years ago. Not impressed with the work ethic.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/11/helen-clark-m-ori-council-denounce-portrayal-of-foreign-minister-nanaia-mahuta-in-international-press.html

And you better not comment on her race & appearance as it is apparently offensive!

Did I not read somewhere that she is proud to be a Maori, has a moko to signify her attachment to her iwi and considers her appointment as the first female foreign minister to be a huge achievement?

But nobody is allowed to highlight those facts! 🤔

justakiwi
03-11-2020, 06:53 PM
Commenting on someone’s race in a positive way is perfectly acceptable. Commenting on it in a negative way, is not.

Making a blanket judgment on someone based on their physical appearance is also not ok.

Maybe people could simply reserve judgment on any of these people for now, and let them settle into their new roles. Time will tell whether they can bring what is needed to the table. You may end up being pleasantly surprised.

If National had won the election, do you seriously think their line-up of “talent” would be any better, or even close to Labour’s? They couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery if they tried right now.


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/11/helen-clark-m-ori-council-denounce-portrayal-of-foreign-minister-nanaia-mahuta-in-international-press.html

And you better not comment on her race & appearance as it is apparently offensive!

Did I not read somewhere that she is proud to be a Maori, has a moko to signify her attachment to her iwi and considers her appointment as the first female foreign minister to be a huge achievement?

But nobody is allowed to highlight those facts! 樂

Balance
03-11-2020, 06:57 PM
Commenting on someone’s race in a positive way is perfectly acceptable. Commenting on it in a negative way, is not.

Making a blanket judgment on someone based on their physical appearance is also not ok.

Maybe people could simply reserve judgment on any of these people for now, and let them settle into their new roles. Time will tell whether they can bring what is needed to the table. You may end up being pleasantly surprised.

If National had won the election, do you seriously think their line-up of “talent” would be any better, or even close to Labour’s? They couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery if they tried.

It’s the hypocrisy of Cindy & her team of incompetents in question re the Mohutu article.

They are upset only because they cannot frame the narrative around her appointment - as if the world press would not notice the moko? What a great opportunity really to enlighten the world as to Maori culture and practices missed.

justakiwi
03-11-2020, 07:29 PM
I am talking about the comments some here have made about her. But with regards to the article, Jacinda is not responsible for the way the media (international or domestic) have presented this. I have seen no hypocrisy whatsoever.


It’s the hypocrisy of Cindy & her team of incompetents in question re the Mohutu article.

Balance
03-11-2020, 07:33 PM
I am talking about the comments some here have made about her. But with regards to the article, Jacinda is not responsible for the way the media (international or domestic) have presented this. I have seen no hypocrisy whatsoever.

Wouldn't Cindy have loved to frame the narrative regarding Mahutu's appointment with the international media as she does effortlessly with the media and sheep in NZ? Using tax payers' money of course!

Now let's get back to the 20,000 NZers on the housing waiting list - where is her plan as the housing chaos rushes towards disaster?

jonu
03-11-2020, 07:48 PM
Helen Clark has far too much to say at the moment. Time was when former PMs kept their own counsel and let the current lot get on with it. She's probably having a hissy fit over the Cannabis referendum, another matter she waded into with her jack boots on. (I heard she never takes them off)

As for the Mahuta headlines nonsense, it's the old trick of claiming victim status before the inevitable cockups to follow. If she had a nose ring and a mohawk that would probably have attracted headlines as well. So what?!

It's one thing to get along with people (Ms Mahuta may well be a very agreeable person) but that doesn't qualify you to walk the fine line of international relations and diplomacy. How will she cope with appeasing the US, Chinese and Aussies for that matter?

Let's hope her department officials keep her on a short leash and just roll her out to sign the documents.

I finally caught up with the press conference with the "agree to agree to disagree" from Marama Davidson. Main thing that struck me was how twice Davidson pushed into Cindy's limelight. Cindy will have taken note. She won't we one for sharing! I predict friction between those two.

jonu
03-11-2020, 07:59 PM
Anyway...in all the excitement I didn't pick up on who has inherited Andrew Little's glorious Pike River cockup, or has he been left to bumble along with it?

And who is the sacrificial goat for Ihumatao? Cindy's greatest personal cockup, which I suspect, she will keep a country mile from.

Balance
03-11-2020, 08:11 PM
Anyway...in all the excitement I didn't pick up on who has inherited Andrew Little's glorious Pike River cockup, or has he been left to bumble along with it?

And who is the sacrificial goat for Ihumatao? Cindy's greatest personal cockup, which I suspect, she will keep a country mile from.

Phil Twyford to the rescue/sacrificial table on Ihumatao?

moka
04-11-2020, 12:37 AM
Quite right Moka. His original description was much less insulting, and far more accurate when he called her 'a lazy cow'. Beats me why he changed it.It seems to me that insulting her and calling her lazy is just because she is a Maori woman, overweight with a moko and that is a good enough reason to be judged as lazy. She fits the stereotype.
And for some of you it is okay to insult someone for those reasons, which is racist and unfair. No sign of repentance, and in fact you double down. The label is not based on fact but on a stereotype and on appearance, which says more about those that insult her than it does about her.
She is obviously not lazy. No cabinet minister is lazy, they have a huge workload and if she had been lazy in the last term she would not have been reappointed as a minister again.

moka
04-11-2020, 12:41 AM
Labour has had the Maori seats for most of the last 90 years. Do you reckon they have delivered for Maori?
Maori don’t think government has delivered to them whether it is National or Labour. The stats show that Maori are disadvantaged in health, education, employment. Institutionalised racism is common, by government departments as well as by government itself.

moka
04-11-2020, 12:49 AM
moka she has admitted Davis told her BEFORE the election that he did not want to be Deputy PM. He has never changed this view. Why was she telling media last week that the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party would be the Deputy PM ? That is a straight out lie, like her pre-election rubbishing of National's plans for a "COVID ministry" that she has now implemented and her rubbishing of National's plan to offer state houses for sale to tenants, something she has been doing secretly for the last 3 years. She simply just continuously lies to us and gets away with.

Apart from Mahuta, Clark and Twyford, I think the PM has come up with a reasonably strong team and I am very pleased she has given infrastructure to Robertson. We may finally see something happen in that field after the disaster 3 years under Twyford.I disagree it was a straight out lie. She was telling media last week that the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party would be the Deputy PM because that is the way it has been, and no decision had been made at that time to change it. The decisions are made in caucus not by Jacinda when she talks to the media.
This stuff happens all the time in business where CEOs deny there will be redundancies, or mergers or acquisitions or whatever because although they are talking about it and there are rumours no actual decision has been made.

moka
04-11-2020, 01:34 AM
I concede that representation and balance are important, but should the optics of diversity be more importance than competence?? At what point do Maori become over represented, which ,it could be argued is fast approaching.
I would make one observation about the CVs of many who are on party lists today. This observation may be unfair . Many seem to be on the conveyor belt of professional politicians. Many "have worked in the sector". It seems mere mortal like me, who are male have fronted up to an employer since 18, paid taxes and raised families etc, apparently have nothing to offer. What are others opinions, or is Sgt Pepper turning into an over 60 male grump??Working in the sector would be a distinct advantage = relevant experience. Politics is not like business and any relevant experience helps new MPs to get up to speed much quicker. I was very impressed with some of the skills, qualifications and experience of those new MPs on Labour’s party list e.g. Dr Ayesha Verrall.

When it comes to competence this article says Māori culture is different from Pākehā culture, and culture plays an important role in poor Māori health statistics. So knowledge of culture is one competency.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/03-11-2020/nice-lineup-now-for-the-mahi-starting-with-the-minefield-of-maori-health/

Balance
04-11-2020, 07:18 AM
https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/11/03/a-curates-egg-cabinet-much-of-it-is-bad-parts-of-it-are-excellent/

From Chris Trotter :

Clearly, the Prime Minister has been more concerned to keep the peace within her vastly expanded caucus, than she has to match the right people with the right positions. This is not a good start – and only promises to get worse.

No amount of fluffing-up the elevation of Nanaia Mahuta to Minister of Foreign Affairs – “the first woman in our nation’s history appointed to hold the portfolio” – can disguise the sheer awfulness and irresponsibility of Ardern’s decision.

The job should have gone to David Parker: not only because he has earned it many times over, but also because, in the years between now and the next election,

New Zealand is going to need a truly outstanding Foreign Minister. Regardless of who wins the 3 November presidential election, the conflict between the USA and China is going to ramp-up into something with the potential to inflict huge damage on this country and its economy.

New Zealand needs a Foreign Minister of vision, courage, verbal felicity and real, on-the-ground, experience.

Mahuta, sadly, has not distinguished herself as a person over-endowed with any of these qualities.

jonu
04-11-2020, 07:37 AM
https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/11/03/a-curates-egg-cabinet-much-of-it-is-bad-parts-of-it-are-excellent/

From Chris Trotter :

Clearly, the Prime Minister has been more concerned to keep the peace within her vastly expanded caucus, than she has to match the right people with the right positions. This is not a good start – and only promises to get worse.

No amount of fluffing-up the elevation of Nanaia Mahuta to Minister of Foreign Affairs – “the first woman in our nation’s history appointed to hold the portfolio” – can disguise the sheer awfulness and irresponsibility of Ardern’s decision.

The job should have gone to David Parker: not only because he has earned it many times over, but also because, in the years between now and the next election,

New Zealand is going to need a truly outstanding Foreign Minister. Regardless of who wins the 3 November presidential election, the conflict between the USA and China is going to ramp-up into something with the potential to inflict huge damage on this country and its economy.

New Zealand needs a Foreign Minister of vision, courage, verbal felicity and real, on-the-ground, experience.

Mahuta, sadly, has not distinguished herself as a person over-endowed with any of these qualities.

You have to acknowledge Chris Trotter, who can only be described as a "True Leftie", isn't shy on calling BS when he sees it. He is to be congratulated for his consistency.

iceman
04-11-2020, 07:50 AM
It seems to me that insulting her and calling her lazy is just because she is a Maori woman, overweight with a moko and that is a good enough reason to be judged as lazy. She fits the stereotype.
And for some of you it is okay to insult someone for those reasons, which is racist and unfair. No sign of repentance, and in fact you double down. The label is not based on fact but on a stereotype and on appearance, which says more about those that insult her than it does about her.
She is obviously not lazy. No cabinet minister is lazy, they have a huge workload and if she had been lazy in the last term she would not have been reappointed as a minister again.

Moka be careful not to fall into the trap of justifying Mahuta's appointment ONLY because she is a Maori woman. It does Maori disservice. I am criticising that appointment as I think it is a very important role and has always been occupied by highly experienced and capable people. I do not rate Mahuta as such and it has nothing to do with race or appearance. I believe the PM has made a terrible mistake here and obviously Chris Trotter agrees.

Balance
04-11-2020, 07:56 AM
You have to acknowledge Chris Trotter, who can only be described as a "True Leftie", isn't shy on calling BS when he sees it. He is to be congratulated for his consistency.

Coming up a stage in NZ where free speech and a person’s ability to comment is now determined by whether you abide by the decisions of the government - you are not allowed to criticise irrespective of how bad and awful the outcomes - potential & actual.

This is the NZ we want? A nation of sheep to be led to the slaughter house?

One thing for sure - future generations are going to be paying big time for the incompetence and cynicism of Cindy’s government of incompetents.

iceman
04-11-2020, 08:07 AM
Maori don’t think government has delivered to them whether it is National or Labour. The stats show that Maori are disadvantaged in health, education, employment. Institutionalised racism is common, by government departments as well as by government itself.

Kiwi's (not just maori) think they are over represented in all the statistics you mention.That includes unemployment. Why do they have such high unemployment numbers, given the huge economic clout they have achieved through Waitangi settlements in the last 3 decades ? I recall, when they were handed 50% of Sealords, maori saying this would be a great opportunity for them to increase the numbers of maori working in the fishing industry. Yet Sealord bought a brand new vessel last year and can not crew it. I had lunch on it some months ago and saw only 1 or 2 maoris in the crew. Most were philippinos

Balance
04-11-2020, 08:10 AM
Careful, iceman - you are not allowed to criticise the Maoris as they are untouchables these days.

If they choose to stay on the benefit instead of working on their fishing trawlers, it’s their culture and therefore, their right.

If they decide to hoard the billions of dollars now under their management and control for their own benefit, but allow their maraes to fall into disrepair to be fixed by $100m of hand out - it’s their culture and their right.

You must not criticise because you, by definition if you are not Maori, is a racist when you dare to criticise.

Balance
04-11-2020, 08:22 AM
More from Chris Trotter, calling a spade a spade:

If Ardern is serious about wanting to govern for “all New Zealanders”, then this Cabinet doesn’t offer much in the way of help.

Portfolios like Foreign Affairs and Justice are critical to explaining important changes in the level of security New Zealanders can expect to enjoy both at home and abroad.

The people she has made responsible for these crucial communications are simply not up to it.

fungus pudding
04-11-2020, 08:37 AM
Careful, iceman - you are not allowed to criticise the Maoris as they are untouchables these days.


Careful. You are not supposed to speak of Maoris in English. It offends some PC types. You are supposed to use the Maori plural, which does not have the S. It is offensive to speak English. I am a constant offender, but I have special permission - self granted.

Balance
04-11-2020, 08:44 AM
Careful. You are not supposed to speak of Maoris in English. It offends some PC types. You are supposed to use the Maori plural, which does not have the S. It is offensive to speak English. I am a constant offender, but I have special permission - self granted.

Thanks, fp - I better follow suit and grant meself (or myself) special permission then too!

Balance
04-11-2020, 08:47 AM
She is obviously not lazy. No cabinet minister is lazy, they have a huge workload and if she had been lazy in the last term she would not have been reappointed as a minister again.

Seriously??????

You forget David Clark & Phil Twyford, and of course Lees Galloway.

Cindy clearly appoints based upon their usefulness to her cynical agenda - not based upon merit or hardwork.

fungus pudding
04-11-2020, 08:59 AM
Thanks, fp - I better follow suit and grant meself (or myself) special permission then too!

Good. I will second that for you, and any other NZ'er who possesses a little bit of common sense.

iceman
04-11-2020, 09:05 AM
No doubt we will see more of this sort of **** now, under a Government that has on its agenda to stifle free speech. I do not agree with the author's comments as reported in the article but she should be totally free to voice her views. This is scary. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/author-olivia-pierson-labels-nanaia-mahutas-moko-ugly-uncivilised-mighty-ape-pulls-books/WW6GEQON7BK4HADJW43Z3FPMEE/

fungus pudding
04-11-2020, 09:21 AM
No doubt we will see more of this sort of **** now, under a Government that has on its agenda to stifle free speech. I do not agree with the author's comments as reported in the article but she should be totally free to voice her views. This is scary. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/author-olivia-pierson-labels-nanaia-mahutas-moko-ugly-uncivilised-mighty-ape-pulls-books/WW6GEQON7BK4HADJW43Z3FPMEE/

Well, I agree with you and also with the author's comments. I find facial tatts ugly, and should be allowed to say so. In fact I find all tatts ugly, particularly on face and around neck. There you go - I've said it.

Bjauck
04-11-2020, 09:26 AM
https://twitter.com/matpottinger/status/1273924237007286272?s=20

Watch as Western countries compete for the unenviable position of having had the largest increase in real house prices since 1980....

And is only to 2016 !! we purchased a house here in Cromwell thats increased some 60% since then would be great to see it updated to show the pure madness I don't think will end in the near term..

Labour must know how overpriced we have become on the world stage...and now having muzzled the Greens she can try and distance herself from the train-wreak coming down the line when we get a credit downgrade on the other side of the COVID madness

It seems that no other country has had real price increases propelling it as far ahead of the others as NZ currently is. Many had a rise up the rankings followed by a subsequent rapid fall down the rankings. For how much longer can NZ be an exceptional case?

justakiwi
04-11-2020, 09:30 AM
When you make sweeping generalisations about a group of people you do not know, based purely on their race, yes Balance - you are being racist. It is attitudes like yours and others here that keep racism alive.

You are such a judgmental person. What gives you the right to condemn a whole group of people based on the colour of their skin? There are “bad eggs” in every cultural group on the planet, including whatever cultural group you personally identify with. Yet people like you still consider yourself to be better than someone from another culture.






You must not criticise because you, by definition if you are not Maori, is a racist when you dare to criticise.

Bjauck
04-11-2020, 09:35 AM
It seems to me that insulting her and calling her lazy is just because she is a Maori woman, overweight with a moko and that is a good enough reason to be judged as lazy. She fits the stereotype.... It will certainly be interesting to see how she is received in other countries, when physical visits become the norm again. Different cultures have different perceptions when it comes to tattoos. For example I think Japanese and Chinese cultures have markedly different perceptions compared to both pakeha and Maori within NZ.

I wonder if there has been a foreign minister, with a visible facial tattoo, representing a sovereign nation previously.

justakiwi
04-11-2020, 09:38 AM
You are entitled to your opinion, but why should you need to say so? What other people do for themselves has no effect on you and is literally none of your business. Criticising another culture’s traditional customs, including tattoos, is disrespectful and more than a little bit racist.


Well, I agree with you and also with the author's comments. I find facial tatts ugly, and should be allowed to say so. In fact I find all tatts ugly, particularly on face and around neck. There you go - I've said it.

blackcap
04-11-2020, 09:41 AM
You are entitled to your opinion, but why should you need to say so? What other people do for themselves has no effect on you and is literally none of your business. Criticising another culture’s traditional customs, including tattoos, is disrespectful and more than a little bit racist.

Criticizing another's culture is not at all racist. Everyone is entitle to their view point, no matter how vile you might perceive it. I too hate tatts on the face and neck area and probably would not hire anyone with those if they came in for a job.

justakiwi
04-11-2020, 10:08 AM
Oh, so Labour ministers should be chosen solely based on their ability to do the job, but when you employ someone, their ability to do the job is secondary to their physical appearance?

Hypocritical double standards as usual.


Criticizing another's culture is not at all racist. Everyone is entitle to their view point, no matter how vile you might perceive it. I too hate tatts on the face and neck area and probably would not hire anyone with those if they came in for a job.

fungus pudding
04-11-2020, 10:15 AM
You are entitled to your opinion, but why should you need to say so? What other people do for themselves has no effect on you and is literally none of your business. Criticising another culture’s traditional customs, including tattoos, is disrespectful and more than a little bit racist.

What tripe. This woman is now representing us on the world stage. That does make it my business. She looks for all the world like a drop-kick from a bikie gang. I am not overly racist, but certainly wouldn't criticise anyone who is. People who genuinely have no prejudices, including racial prejudices, would not be safe in much of the world. It is our prejudice, or ability to pre-judge that gives us the ability to sense danger. I could take some of these preachers to parts of the USA or Sth. Africa for example, and suggest they take a stroll through certain areas at night. Most would run a mile - which would show most who criticise others as racist, are hypocrites. Free speech and free thought should never be criticised.

blackcap
04-11-2020, 10:16 AM
Oh, so Labour ministers should be chosen solely based on their ability to do the job, but when you employ someone, their ability to do the job is secondary to their physical appearance?

Hypocritical double standards as usual.



My comment was my personal preference and not hypocritical at all. For me appearance can also impact the ability to do the job. Especially when these people are in client facing positions. I do not want my business represented by people with tatts on their face. That is my criteria, yours may differ and that is fine.

justakiwi
04-11-2020, 10:19 AM
And there we have it.

You don’t know this woman. You know literally nothing about her as a human being. You have made a judgment in her value (as a person and as a politician/minister) based on nothing but her physical appearance.

You disgust me.


What tripe. This woman is now representing us on the world stage. That does make it my business. She looks for all the world like a drop-kick from a bikie gang. I am not overly racist, but certainly wouldn't criticise anyone who is. People who genuinely have no prejudices, including racial prejudices, would not be safe in much of the world. It is our prejudice, or ability to pre-judge that gives us the ability to sense danger. I could take some of these preachers to parts of the USA or Sth. Africa for example, and suggest they take a stroll through certain areas at night. Most would run a mile - which would show most who criticise others as racist, are hypocrites. Free speech and free thought should never be criticised.

blackcap
04-11-2020, 10:22 AM
And there we have it.

You don’t know this woman. You know literally nothing about her as a human being. You have made a judgment in her value (as a person and as a politician/minister) based on nothing but her physical appearance.

You disgust me.

My judgement of her is not on her looks, rather the years of non-achievement with her snout in the trough.

justakiwi
04-11-2020, 10:25 AM
I have worked in client facing roles and the vast majority of clients/customers are more likely to be fascinated by tattoos that disgusted. I don’t have any myself, but I have seen little old ladies commenting on staff members’ tattoos - positively. When a tattoo is done well it can be as beautiful as traditional art works.

I will concede to one exception however. Visible tattoos that are offensive in any way, are not OK, and I would not want an employee of mine working front line if they had a tattoo in this category (or they would be expected to cover it)


My comment was my personal preference and not hypocritical at all. For me appearance can also impact the ability to do the job. Especially when these people are in client facing positions. I do not want my business represented by people with tatts on their face. That is my criteria, yours may differ and that is fine.

justakiwi
04-11-2020, 10:26 AM
God help any of your kids or grandkids should they ever be overweight. You are an arrogant prick.


My judgement of her is not on her looks, rather the years of non-achievement with her snout in the trough.

blackcap
04-11-2020, 10:28 AM
God help any of your kids or grandkids should they ever be overweight. You are an arrogant prick.

I am not sure why you are mentioning the term "overweight". I never commented on that part of her physique. Not even sure she is overweight. Just lazy, nothing to do with weight. The snout in the trough is a comment on those in public service who are there for the money etc etc.

justakiwi
04-11-2020, 10:37 AM
Oh well, my sincere apologies for misunderstanding your meaning behind that comment then. Having said that, what you did mean is equally as judgmental. How do you know she is lazy or only there for the money? Where is your evidence of that? My previous comments still apply. You are judging her without even giving her a chance to do the job she has been given.


I am not sure why you are mentioning the term "overweight". I never commented on that part of her physique. Not even sure she is overweight. Just lazy, nothing to do with weight. The snout in the trough is a comment on those in public service who are there for the money etc etc.

fungus pudding
04-11-2020, 11:01 AM
And there we have it.

You don’t know this woman. You know literally nothing about her as a human being. You have made a judgment in her value (as a person and as a politician/minister) based on nothing but her physical appearance.

You disgust me.

I'd like to see how you'd survive the New York underground late at night if you don't have the ability to make judgements based on appearance.

justakiwi
04-11-2020, 11:08 AM
I can make judgements, but it doesn’t mean they will be correct. I may cross the street because I see someone who appears to be dodgy, but it doesn’t mean he is. Similarly, I could feel safe with a businessman in an Armani suit, who could be a psychopathic serial killer.

Not an issue for me as the US is the last place on earth I want to visit.


I'd like to see how you'd survive the New York underground late at night if you don't have the ability to make judgements based on appearance.

justakiwi
04-11-2020, 11:23 AM
By the way. I worked in a furniture factory many moons ago. Our of all the staff that worked there, male and female, the only person in that whole factory who treated me with respect and didn’t look down their nose at me, was .... an ex bikie. Long hair and tattoos, a garage full of Harleys with a “security system” that just happened to be wired into 240V to welcome anyone who was tempted to steal his bikes. Yet he was a polite, friendly, funny, hardworking guy and the only one to treat me like a human being.

Don’t judge a bikie, or anyone else, by their cover.

Balance
04-11-2020, 11:33 AM
Appearances matter - always have and will always do.

First impressions matter hugely.

Anyone who thinks otherwise obviously has no idea how the real world operates.

And we now have a foreign minister who looks sloppy because she is obviously overweight and has a tattoo on her face - but everyone overseas dealing with her when she is interacting with them are supposed to look past that because she is Maori?

Point is that Cindy has no idea how the real world operates out there - cloud cuckoo fantasy land.

fungus pudding
04-11-2020, 11:35 AM
I can make judgements, but it doesn’t mean they will be correct. I may cross the street because I see someone who appears to be dodgy, but it doesn’t mean he is. Similarly, I could feel safe with a businessman in an Armani suit, who could be a psychopathic serial killer.

Not an issue for me as the US is the last place on earth I want to visit.

Probably just as well. The US are extremely interesting, but you would not be able to handle the diversity.

justakiwi
04-11-2020, 11:52 AM
No. You’re supposed to look past it because she is a human being and deserves a chance to prove she can do the job she has been tasked with. Do you think Kim Jung Un and Trump are judged because they are obese, or because they are dictators (one not quite there but getting closer every day) who suck at their jobs?

Would you be reacting the same way if the new foreign relations minister was male with a tattoo?


.....but everyone overseas dealing with her when she is interacting with them are supposed to look past that because she is Maori?

justakiwi
04-11-2020, 11:55 AM
That’s total BS. I have no problem with diversity whatsoever. I do have a problem with fools and idiots, arrogance, narcissistic and misogynistic attitudes and behaviour, and racism.


Probably just as well. The US are extremely interesting, but you would not be able to handle the diversity.

Bjauck
04-11-2020, 12:27 PM
What tripe. This woman is now representing us on the world stage. That does make it my business. I agree.


She looks for all the world like a drop-kick from a bikie gang. Seriously?


I am not overly racist, OK


but certainly wouldn't criticise anyone who is. Wow!


People who genuinely have no prejudices, including racial prejudices, would not be safe in much of the world. It is our prejudice, or ability to pre-judge that gives us the ability to sense danger. Are you confusing prejudice with life experience? Only relying on outward appearance could get you into danger too. Everyone makes a snap decision based on appearance and their life experience. Those who are prejudiced will rigidly stick to it, despite subsequent evidence to the contrary.


I could take some of these preachers to parts of the USA or Sth. Africa for example, and suggest they take a stroll through certain areas at night. Most would run a mile - which would show most who criticise others as racist, are hypocrites. Free speech and free thought should never be criticised. Are you throwing deprivation and bad policing into the mix to somehow justify racism?

Bjauck
04-11-2020, 12:45 PM
...
Would you be reacting the same way if the new foreign relations minister was male with a tattoo? Has there ever been a male Foreign Minister with an obvious visible facial tattoo from an OECD country?

Balance
04-11-2020, 12:58 PM
No. You’re supposed to look past it because she is a human being and deserves a chance to prove she can do the job she has been tasked with. Do you think Kim Jung Un and Trump are judged because they are obese, or because they are dictators (one not quite there but getting closer every day) who suck at their jobs?

Would you be reacting the same way if the new foreign relations minister was male with a tattoo?

We live in the real world - not fantasy land like Cindy thinks the world does like in NZ.

Mahutu has her work cut out to get past the initial first impression of a sloppy looking uncouth unsophisticated foreign minister appointed simply because she is Maori.

Read Chris Trotter comments about whether she is even up to the job - let alone get past the unquestionably to be negative first impression.

What the heck was Cindy thinking when she appointed her as foreign minister?

justakiwi
04-11-2020, 01:03 PM
I have no idea, but that’s not what I asked Balance. I asked him if he would be reacting this way if our new Foreign Relations Minister was male with cultural tattoos.

The fact that it may never have occurred before is irrelevant. The world is changing. Views are changing. Most people are becoming much more understanding and accepting of people from different cultures to their own. Which is a good thing and how it should be. Why is everybody so hung up about this woman’s race and physical appearance? Geez ... she hasn’t even started in her new role yet! Back off and let her get settled into the role before you start judging and attacking her. I am astounded that seemingly intelligent, grown men are so threatened and intimidated by women to the point where they resort to name calling and body shaming before she has had a chance to show she can (or can’t) do the job.

If she proves to be incapable of doing the job, then sure, you have grounds to criticise her on her performance, but until then, none of these comments are justified. You have all focussed on this minister because she is Māori, female, has a moko, and does not “fit” your narrow minded idea of what a minister should be or look like. I have heard Sweet Fanny Adams about any of the other ministers on the list. It’s shameful.


Has there ever been a male Foreign Minister with an obvious visible facial tattoo from an OECD country?

fungus pudding
04-11-2020, 01:17 PM
I agree.

Seriously?

OK

Wow!?

Wow indeed.
Pity it's so difficult to travel overseas at present. You'll have to put any plans for a holiday to Somalia on hold.

Bjauck
04-11-2020, 01:39 PM
...
The fact that it may never have occurred before is irrelevant. The world is changing. Views are changing. Most people are becoming much more understanding and accepting of people from different cultures to their own. .... I am not saying that it is a bad thing. However I think it is very relevant if it has never occurred before. Groundbreakers can have a tough time. So it may well have an impact on how she my need to approach her role with certain foreign governments.

Bjauck
04-11-2020, 01:40 PM
Wow indeed.
Pity it's so difficult to travel overseas at present. You'll have to put any plans for a holiday to Somaia on hold. You are more funny when you try to correct granmar and punctuation!

fungus pudding
04-11-2020, 01:57 PM
That’s total BS. I have no problem with diversity whatsoever. I do have a problem with fools and idiots, arrogance, narcissistic and misogynistic attitudes and behaviour, and racism.

What I meant was, because you are not influenced by the way people present themselves, you will not spot the danger signs. And while I agree that there are exceptions such as your furniture factory example (which even you realise is an exception or you wouldn't have mentioned it) I'd advise when asking for directions in Johannesburg just give a little thought to what you will have read in the paper that day. And after a week or os there I'm sure some of your decisions will be partially based on race.

justakiwi
04-11-2020, 02:21 PM
I didn’t say I am never influenced by the way people present themselves. Of course I am, but I try very hard to then step back from my “first impression” of someone, to get a better idea of who they actually are. It is human nature to have a spontaneous reaction to physical appearance for example, but making a judgment based on first impressions, is something I try not to do. When I first joined ST I formed some first impressions of certain people, very quickly, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt until such time as it was blatantly clear that my first impressions were correct. My initial impression of some of you however, was entirely incorrect.

Spotting the danger signs is valid, but I don’t put myself in the kinds of situations where I generally need to do that, so not a particular concern for me.


What I meant was, because you are not influenced by the way people present themselves, you will not spot the danger signs.


Absolutely wrong. The reason I mentioned it was not because it was in any way an exception. I mentioned it purely to prove my point. I didn’t even know this guy was an ex bikie until months later. We had already formed a working relationship and he was, as I said, the only person in that factory who didn’t judge me. The culture in that factory was one I didn’t fit in with at all. All the staff knew that and treated me with disdain, simply because I didn’t do drugs, smoke, spend my breaks talking about who was ****ing who behind their missus’ back. They judged me based on my appearance/education/behaviour - not on my ability to do the job. The bikie guy didn’t. If anyone was justified in judging others it would be him. Bikies have been judged forever, and not all of it has been deserved.



And while I agree that there are exceptions such as your furniture factory example (which even you realise is an exception or you wouldn't have mentioned it)

Another country I have no desire to visit, and no, that decision is not based on race, but on race relations. There is a difference.


I'd advise when asking for directions in Johannesburg just give a little thought to what you will have read in the paper that day. And after a week or os there I'm sure some of your decisions will be partially based on race.

couta1
04-11-2020, 03:54 PM
Maori don’t think government has delivered to them whether it is National or Labour. The stats show that Maori are disadvantaged in health, education, employment. Institutionalised racism is common, by government departments as well as by government itself. Cry me a river, my siblings and I grew up in the worst possibly home and lifestyle you could imagine but we all made a way for ourselves without Govt help.

Bjauck
04-11-2020, 04:12 PM
Cry me a river, my siblings and I grew up in the worst possibly home and lifestyle you could imagine but we all made a way for ourselves without Govt help. So do you think there should be survival of the “fittest” and the rest die as the result of discrimination, hunger and disease? Monty Python’s four Yorkshiremen - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE

artemis
04-11-2020, 04:56 PM
Cry me a river, my siblings and I grew up in the worst possibly home and lifestyle you could imagine but we all made a way for ourselves without Govt help.

Similar here couta, dirt poor and disfunctional, and my two siblings and I have all done very well despite the siblings both having serious health issues. Mind you they both moved to Australia many years ago, as did around half of my many first cousins. Doubt any of us would play the Maori card to get preferential attention.

couta1
04-11-2020, 05:00 PM
Similar here couta, dirt poor and disfunctional, and my two siblings and I have all done very well despite the siblings both having serious health issues. Mind you they both moved to Australia many years ago, as did around half of my many first cousins. Doubt any of us would play the Maori card to get preferential attention. Yes your last sentence was exactly the point i was trying to make but no doubt the PC do good mob will be along soon to dazzle us with their bs rhetoric.

Bjauck
04-11-2020, 05:38 PM
Similar here couta, dirt poor and disfunctional, and my two siblings and I have all done very well despite the siblings both having serious health issues. Mind you they both moved to Australia many years ago, as did around half of my many first cousins. Doubt any of us would play the Maori card to get preferential attention. Your rellies would be hard-pushed to access government funding as Maori in Australia. Post 1994 all Special category Kiwis paying full tax can’t even access all regular funding!

Bjauck
04-11-2020, 05:42 PM
Yes your last sentence was exactly the point i was trying to make but no doubt the PC do good mob will be along soon to dazzle us with their bs rhetoric. Good on you for being Maori and making it by yourself despite your tough background. I think the odds were stacked against you. Hats off to you. Chapeau! You would probably be a good mentor for today’s Maori youth.

moka
04-11-2020, 05:48 PM
Cry me a river, my siblings and I grew up in the worst possibly home and lifestyle you could imagine but we all made a way for ourselves without Govt help.When New Zealand was a welfare state New Zealanders got lots of government help such as state housing, free tertiary education, State Advances loans, capitalizing the family benefit. And it was targeted mainly at white middle class. You not have benefited from any direct financial assistance from the government, but they did provide the infrastructure to help as many New Zealanders as possible succeed. And now those who have succeeded are reluctant to allow similar assistance through a welfare state to others, especially to Maori.

moka
04-11-2020, 06:19 PM
Kiwi's (not just maori) think they are over represented in all the statistics you mention.That includes unemployment. Why do they have such high unemployment numbers, given the huge economic clout they have achieved through Waitangi settlements in the last 3 decades ? I recall, when they were handed 50% of Sealords, maori saying this would be a great opportunity for them to increase the numbers of maori working in the fishing industry. Yet Sealord bought a brand new vessel last year and can not crew it. I had lunch on it some months ago and saw only 1 or 2 maoris in the crew. Most were philippinos
A bit of a mind game there when you say Kiwi's (not just maori) think they are over represented in all the statistics you mention. You dismiss the fact that outcomes for Maori are worse in health, education and employment than for white New Zealanders.

The Waitangi settlements didn’t actually give Maori huge economic clout. It may have seemed a lot of money but it doesn’t go far. I did see some figures putting the settlements into perspective and the sums were paltry. I don’t know much about Sealord but iwi have received $106.4m from Moana since 2004 which doesn’t go far when spread among 58 iwi shareholders.

Moana New Zealand has also declared their largest cash dividend yet of $11.3 million, in accordance with the Company’s dividend policy and as set out in the Maori Fisheries Act. Its 58 Iwi shareholders will receive their respective share of the dividend today. This brings the total dividends to its shareholders since Moana New Zealand’s inception in 2004, to $106.4 million.
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1912/S00268/iwi-to-receive-largest-ever-cash-dividend-from-moana-nz.htm

iceman
04-11-2020, 06:24 PM
A bit of a mind game there when you say Kiwi's (not just maori) think they are over represented in all the statistics you mention. You dismiss the fact that outcomes for Maori are worse in health, education and employment than for white New Zealanders.

The Waitangi settlements didn’t actually give Maori huge economic clout. It may have seemed a lot of money but it doesn’t go far. I did see some figures putting the settlements into perspective and the sums were paltry. I don’t know much about Sealord but iwi have received $106.4m from Moana since 2004 which doesn’t go far when spread among 58 iwi shareholders.

Moana New Zealand has also declared their largest cash dividend yet of $11.3 million, in accordance with the Company’s dividend policy and as set out in the Maori Fisheries Act. Its 58 Iwi shareholders will receive their respective share of the dividend today. This brings the total dividends to its shareholders since Moana New Zealand’s inception in 2004, to $106.4 million.
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1912/S00268/iwi-to-receive-largest-ever-cash-dividend-from-moana-nz.htm

How do you find that I dismissed it. I agreed with you that they are over represented in all those statistics.

It is silly of you to say they do not have big economic clot. Iwi businesses in NZ is a 9-10 BILLION empire. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/the-9-billion-iwi-empire-maori-groups-assets-grow-despite-slowdown/QFRLAM7PJFJDKR2W2AY62U4EIM/#:~:text=Advertise%20with%20NZME.-,The%20%249%20billion%20iwi%20empire,groups'%20ass ets%20grow%2C%20despite%20slowdown&text=The%20combined%20wealth%20of%20the,new%20repo rt%20on%20iwi%20holdings.

Bjauck
04-11-2020, 06:25 PM
When New Zealand was a welfare state New Zealanders got lots of government help such as state housing, free tertiary education, State Advances loans, capitalizing the family benefit. And it was targeted mainly at white middle class. You not have benefited from any direct financial assistance from the government, but they did provide the infrastructure to help as many New Zealanders as possible succeed. .. Surely that is just baby boomer entitlement - it doesn't count as welfare!

jonu
04-11-2020, 07:22 PM
When New Zealand was a welfare state New Zealanders got lots of government help such as state housing, free tertiary education, State Advances loans, capitalizing the family benefit. And it was targeted mainly at white middle class. You not have benefited from any direct financial assistance from the government, but they did provide the infrastructure to help as many New Zealanders as possible succeed. And now those who have succeeded are reluctant to allow similar assistance through a welfare state to others, especially to Maori.

Bollocks moka. Don't be rewriting history like that. A good proportion of houses in northland were built with Maori Affairs loans in the 60s (basically the same as the State Advances model). East Cape probably the same. All NZers were able to access free tertiary education, and huge numbers of Maori took up trade apprenticeships in the 60s and were housed in hostels in Auckland and Christchurch and other parts of the country.

Balance
04-11-2020, 07:37 PM
Bollocks moka. Don't be rewriting history like that. A good proportion of houses in northland were built with Maori Affairs loans in the 60s (basically the same as the State Advances model). East Cape probably the same. All NZers were able to access free tertiary education, and huge numbers of Maori took up trade apprenticeships in the 60s and were housed in hostels in Auckland and Christchurch and other parts of the country.


A bit of a mind game there when you say Kiwi's (not just maori) think they are over represented in all the statistics you mention. You dismiss the fact that outcomes for Maori are worse in health, education and employment than for white New Zealanders.

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moka, I have one simple question which I really appreciate if you can enlighten us on :

NZ had to import workers by the hundreds of thousands from the Islands during the late 1960s and early 1970s to work in the factories and services industries - why weren't the Maori interested in those jobs?

I worked in a car assembly plant which employed several hundred people on 2 shifts and there wasn't a single Maori in the workforce - just Pacific Islanders and Pakeha.

What intrigued me at that time was that the plant was within walking distance from the huge state housing areas of Mt Wellington, Panmure and Glen Innes in Auckland, where to today, the tenants are predominately Maori.

Genuine question and you may be able to help & put things in some perspective for us?

fungus pudding
04-11-2020, 07:52 PM
moka, I have one simple question which I really appreciate if you can enlighten us on :

NZ had to import workers by the hundreds of thousands from the Islands during the late 1960s and early 1970s to work in the factories and services industries - why weren't the Maori interested in those jobs?

I worked in a car assembly plant and there wasn't a single Maori in the workforce - just Pacific Islanders and Pakeha.

What intrigued me at that time was that the plant was within walking distance from the huge state housing areas of Mt Wellington, Panmure and Glen Innes in Auckland, where to today, the tenants are predominately Maori.

Genuine question to try and put things in some perspective.

A little more on that theme - I used to do a bit of Tramping and have walked almost every tramping track in the South Island, many several times. Our tracks attract people from all over the planet; I've encountered Canadians, Nth. and Sth. Americans , Australians, Germans, French, Asians, Swiss, Japanese, Irish, Sth. Africans and Poms to name a few. However I've yet to see a Maori out tramping. I often think of this when I hear about their special attachment to the land and bush. Amen.

Bjauck
04-11-2020, 08:35 PM
A little more on that theme - I used to do a bit of Tramping and have walked almost every tramping track in the South Island, many several times. Our tracks attract people from all over the planet; I've encountered Canadians, Nth. and Sth. Americans , Australians, Germans, French, Asians, Swiss, Japanese, Irish, Sth. Africans and Poms to name a few. However I've yet to see a Maori out tramping. I often think of this when I hear about their special attachment to the land and bush. Amen.

There are certainly a lot of tracks n the South Island - you must be very fit. I presume that does not include hunting tracks?

About 87% of the Maori population lives in the North Island. Compared with about 75% of the total population. So you would need to factor in the cost and time involved in inter-island travel?

You have said that you are not "overly" racist and that you would certainly not criticise someone who was. Perhaps that has affected those you ended up talking to? If you also met other NZers, good on you if you asked whether they were of Maori descent or not.

Is recreational tramping as important to Maori as it is for Americans and Brits for example (or the Americans and Brits who can afford to come to NZ and were attracted by NZ Tourism ads featuring outdoor adventures?)

However I see you have phrased your post as a non-negotiable statement. "It is so."

fungus pudding
04-11-2020, 09:36 PM
There are certainly a lot of tracks n the South Island - you must be very fit. I presume that does not include hunting tracks?

About 87% of the Maori population lives in the North Island. Compared with about 75% of the total population. So you would need to factor in the cost and time involved in inter-island travel?

You have said that you are not "overly" racist and that you would certainly not criticise someone who was. Perhaps that has affected those you ended up talking to? If you also met other NZers, good on you if you asked whether they were of Maori descent or not.

Is recreational tramping as important to Maori as it is for Americans and Brits for example (or the Americans and Brits who can afford to come to NZ and were attracted by NZ Tourism ads featuring outdoor adventures?)

However I see you have phrased your post as a non-negotiable statement. "It is so."

My fitness days are gone sorry to say. No, I do not ask Nz'ers if they are of Maori descent. It reveals itself when talking to them. And as far as the cost of coming from the Nth. Island - all the French and Germans come from Europe. The land is just not important to Maoris obviously. I have asked several Nth Island tramping club members about this, and it appears they do not take to tramping there either. To generalise, they simply have no interest in the land or the bush unless hunting for something to kill which is a no-no on DOC tracks. I presume your last sentence refers to my amen ending, with which I framed the sentence. I don't know what phrasing my post means. Likewise I have no idea what amen means - but I use it, perhaps incorrectly, as an emphatic full-stop. 'The end.'

moka
04-11-2020, 11:22 PM
moka, I have one simple question which I really appreciate if you can enlighten us on :

NZ had to import workers by the hundreds of thousands from the Islands during the late 1960s and early 1970s to work in the factories and services industries - why weren't the Maori interested in those jobs?

I worked in a car assembly plant which employed several hundred people on 2 shifts and there wasn't a single Maori in the workforce - just Pacific Islanders and Pakeha.

What intrigued me at that time was that the plant was within walking distance from the huge state housing areas of Mt Wellington, Panmure and Glen Innes in Auckland, where to today, the tenants are predominately Maori.

Genuine question and you may be able to help & put things in some perspective for us?
I wasn’t aware that NZ had to import workers by the hundreds of thousands from the Islands during the late 1960s and early 1970s to work in the factories and services industries. However the 1960s was full employment, easy to find jobs. Lots of Maori worked for the railways, Ministry of Works, driving trucks, so perhaps they preferred driving a truck or bulldozer to working in a factory, I would.

https://teara.govt.nz/en/graph/24362/unemployment-1896-2006
Graph of unemployment showing about 1% unemployment from 1946 to 1966. I think this is unemployment figures not benefit figures. There was a stigma attached to going on a benefit in those days.
I wonder if there were many Maori living in those state houses back in the 1960s. I have talked to quite a few white middle class baby boomers who were brought up in state houses, with fathers in white collar jobs, which surprised me.

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/we-call-it-home/making-ends-meet
State housing has at various times discriminated against particular groups within society. Premier Richard Seddon had decreed that workers' dwellings would be built for (Pākehā) married couples with children; Māori, single people, and the elderly need not apply.
The 1930s and '40s schemes also favoured nuclear families above others in society. Since the 1960s state housing has targeted the poor and those who face discrimination in the private rental market, including Māori, Pacific Islanders and solo mothers.

moka
04-11-2020, 11:37 PM
A little more on that theme - I used to do a bit of Tramping and have walked almost every tramping track in the South Island, many several times. Our tracks attract people from all over the planet; I've encountered Canadians, Nth. and Sth. Americans , Australians, Germans, French, Asians, Swiss, Japanese, Irish, Sth. Africans and Poms to name a few. However I've yet to see a Maori out tramping. I often think of this when I hear about their special attachment to the land and bush. Amen.So if Maori don’t go tramping like Europeans do does that mean that they are in some way inferior?
They go pig hunting, fishing, diving for sea food, play rugby. They don’t really do cricket though.
Maori and Pacific Island men had traditionally been attracted to more physical sports, such as rugby union and rugby league said Adam Parore, the first Maori to play for New Zealand.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crowe-cricket-not-the-game-for-maori/FAITZUWEENP5IABGJNJ3SYAJMY/

Balance
04-11-2020, 11:49 PM
However the 1960s was full employment, easy to find jobs. Lots of Maori worked for the railways, Ministry of Works, driving trucks, so perhaps they preferred driving a truck or bulldozer to working in a factory, I would. [/I]

I think you have supplied the answer - government jobs were easy, paid well and very flexible - we know that in the 60s and 70s, the government departments & workforce were the least productive & inefficient part of NZ workforce.

Guess the Maori never made the best of the period of unparalleled prosperity in NZ in the 60s and 70s. A great time to get educated, be healthy, buy homes and build up wealth when there was full employment and opportunities were aplenty.

Whose fault was that?

fungus pudding
05-11-2020, 12:00 AM
So if Maori don’t go tramping like Europeans do does that mean that they are in some way inferior?
They go pig hunting, fishing, diving for sea food, play rugby. They don’t really do cricket though.
Maori and Pacific Island men had traditionally been attracted to more physical sports, such as rugby union and rugby league said Adam Parore, the first Maori to play for New Zealand.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crowe-cricket-not-the-game-for-maori/FAITZUWEENP5IABGJNJ3SYAJMY/

I don't know why you question if Maoris might be inferior. Is it something you just assume, or do you have some evidence? It's certainly never occurred to me.
BTW I've never heard of anyone doing cricket. How does anyone do that?

moka
05-11-2020, 12:07 AM
I'd like to see how you'd survive the New York underground late at night if you don't have the ability to make judgements based on appearance.Since we are way off topic I might as well continue. You can’t judge by appearances as the case of serial killer Ted Bundy showed.

Bundy was able to do what he did, get away with it for so long and become the subject of a series and film all these years later for a disturbing reason: He was a mild-mannered, well-educated, attractive white man.
If you're an attractive white male, you get away with certain things. Media reports focus on the "oh but he's such a good guy" angle complete with "he would never do something like this" and "he had his whole life ahead of him".
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/siena-yates-the-true-crime-in-netflixs-ted-bundy-tapes/MB3NNSOJG5DPRMJO5ESGGYJ5GY/

moka
05-11-2020, 01:10 AM
Moka be careful not to fall into the trap of justifying Mahuta's appointment ONLY because she is a Maori woman. It does Maori disservice. I am criticising that appointment as I think it is a very important role and has always been occupied by highly experienced and capable people. I do not rate Mahuta as such and it has nothing to do with race or appearance. I believe the PM has made a terrible mistake here and obviously Chris Trotter agrees.I don’t justify Mahuta’s appointment ONLY because she is a Maori woman. I think that being a Maori woman disadvantages her. I trust Jacinda’s judgement. She won’t be judging her only on her appearance which handicaps her as you can see by the negative comments here and elsewhere.

Jacinda said Mahuta had experience as an associate trade minister in the previous cabinet, and Jacinda has seen first-hand the relationships she has formed in that role, she is someone who builds fantastic relationships very, very quickly, and that is one of the key jobs in a Foreign Affairs role.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9swNi-eB48

cammo
05-11-2020, 04:57 AM
Let's assume the popularity contest vote is worth 20 seats of labour party vote. Add five for deluded boomers voting for closed border management so they can continue sipping lattes in retirement and five more for farmers that voted red to keep the greens out.
No popular prime minister material on the right so the vote went to her. But the country underneath voted further right. I think ten mps and Mr Seymour will be out from the beginning guns blazing.

Balance
05-11-2020, 06:25 AM
I don’t justify Mahuta’s appointment ONLY because she is a Maori woman. I think that being a Maori woman disadvantages her. I trust Jacinda’s judgement. She won’t be judging her only on her appearance which handicaps her as you can see by the negative comments here and elsewhere.

Jacinda said Mahuta had experience as an associate trade minister in the previous cabinet, and Jacinda has seen first-hand the relationships she has formed in that role, she is someone who builds fantastic relationships very, very quickly, and that is one of the key jobs in a Foreign Affairs role.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9swNi-eB48

Judgement?

Same judgement which saw her appointed and kept Phil Twyford, Kelvin Davis, Lee’s Galloway, David Clark and Clare Curran on despite their repeated failures to perform and obvious incompetence?

Bjauck
05-11-2020, 07:34 AM
I think you have supplied the answer - government jobs were easy, paid well and very flexible - we know that in the 60s and 70s, the government departments & workforce were the least productive & inefficient part of NZ workforce.

Guess the Maori never made the best of the period of unparalleled prosperity in NZ in the 60s and 70s. A great time to get educated, be healthy, buy homes and build up wealth when there was full employment and opportunities were aplenty.

Whose fault was that? An interesting question. The 1960's and 70's was an era when the indigenous people around the British Empire and Commonwealth were taking over government administration which then took their countries to independence. However for some the Colonial settler societies hung on to control either by sheer determination (eg Rhodesia and RSA) or by size of settler population (e.g. NZ.) So for Maori the transition to control their country never occurred.

Balance
05-11-2020, 08:09 AM
An interesting question. The 1960's and 70's was an era when the indigenous people around the British Empire and Commonwealth were taking over government administration which then took their countries to independence. However for some the Colonial settler societies hung on to control either by sheer determination (eg Rhodesia and RSA) or by size of settler population (e.g. NZ.) So for Maori the transition to control their country never occurred.

Education, education and education.

Maori need to embrace that simple mantra imo rather than the current focus on sports, grievances and segregation tendencies.

Will not suit Maori politicians however.

justakiwi
05-11-2020, 09:14 AM
Maybe if our one-size-fits-all education system found a way to cater for kids from different cultures in terms of teaching and learning methods/strategies, outcomes would improve.

You are, once again, lumping all Māori into one group and making judgments that are incorrect and disrespectful. Are all pakeha exactly the same? Do we all have the same level of education? Do we all play sport? No ... so why do you automatically “see” all Māori people the same as each other? Your comments are racist, whether you recognise it or not.


Education, education and education.

Maori need to embrace that simple mantra imo rather than the current focus on sports, grievances and segregation tendencies.

Will not suit Maori politicians however.

artemis
05-11-2020, 09:21 AM
Your rellies would be hard-pushed to access government funding as Maori in Australia.....

Really? Who knew? //

jonu
05-11-2020, 09:23 AM
Maybe if our one-size-fits-all education system found a way to cater for kids from different cultures in terms of teaching and learning methods/strategies, outcomes would improve.

You are, once again, lumping all Māori into one group and making judgments that are incorrect and disrespectful. Are all pakeha exactly the same? Do we all have the same level of education? Do we all play sport? No ... so why do you automatically “see” all Māori people the same as each other? Your comments are racist, whether you recognise it or not.

You make some valid points.....but the problem is you can't have it both ways. You are right to say don't lump Maori into one group and assume they are all the same when it comes to negative choices. The same applies when implementing welfare policies. You shouldn't target welfare according to skin colour....why not?...because they are not all the same. To say so is racist. The same applies to all the other "identity politics" groupings of alphabet soup, gender etc.

Apparently it is ok to be racist or sexist when you are handing things out or distributing power.

Balance
05-11-2020, 09:29 AM
Maybe if our one-size-fits-all education system found a way to cater for kids from different cultures in terms of teaching and learning methods/strategies, outcomes would improve.

You are, once again, lumping all Māori into one group and making judgments that are incorrect and disrespectful. Are all pakeha exactly the same? Do we all have the same level of education? Do we all play sport? No ... so why do you automatically “see” all Māori people the same as each other? Your comments are racist, whether you recognise it or not.

Racist?

Maori are the ones who define their race as the one represented overwhelmingly in the wrong stats - crime, health, poverty, child cruelty, gangs etc etc etc. So they lump themselves already!

What I am doing is offering an idea of what has worked in third world countries (becoming first world) - eg. Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, Japan - education, education and education. They embrace Western education with a passion with no problem. Heck, they pay top dollars to come to NZ to study! I have met students whose families mortgage their homes to send them here to study!

And here we are in NZ - free education, free medical care for children and interest free student loans but excuses, excuses and excuses instead of education, education and education!

justakiwi, you need to knock that huge chip of your shoulder and be a well rounded thinker. Too many excuses and grievances from you.

justakiwi
05-11-2020, 10:12 AM
This coming from the biggest “chip holder” and most narrow minder thinker, in this forum.



justakiwi, you need to knock that huge chip of your shoulder and be a well rounded thinker. Too many excuses and grievances from you.

Balance
05-11-2020, 11:16 AM
This coming from the biggest “chip holder” and most narrow minder thinker, in this forum.

That’s your opinion - posters can judge for themselves.

justakiwi
05-11-2020, 11:30 AM
They already have. Often.


That’s your opinion - posters can judge for themselves.

macduffy
05-11-2020, 11:42 AM
Enough already! This "debate" 's going nowhere.

:mellow:

Bjauck
05-11-2020, 11:57 AM
Education, education and education.

Maori need to embrace that simple mantra imo rather than the current focus on sports, grievances and segregation tendencies.

Will not suit Maori politicians however.
Back in the 1960's, how much education was available and funded in Tikanga Maori or Te Reo Maori? It was integration or next to nothing available?

Balance
05-11-2020, 11:58 AM
They already have. Often.

Can’t help being right so what can I do?

I ❤️ It!

iceman
05-11-2020, 12:07 PM
Back in the 1960's, how much education was available and funded in Tikanga Maori or Te Reo Maori? It was integration or next to nothing available?

You are right, not much back then. We now have "Whanau classes" where things are taught in maori language and customs and not in line with the mainstream teaching. My wife sometimes teaches in some of these classes and I really fear for the future of many of the kids that are being put through there. Will they be employable and able to find their way in the World ? It is my big fear they are not. Is it possible we are already seeing the result of this lacklustre PC approach to education over the last couple of decades, in the lack of willingness of many young people to work ?
I suspect it is a contributing factor.

Balance
05-11-2020, 12:42 PM
Back in the 1960's, how much education was available and funded in Tikanga Maori or Te Reo Maori? It was integration or next to nothing available?

Like I wrote, overseas students come to study here and pay mega bucks for the privilege. Nothing wrong with our education - everything wrong with the attitude of those who prefer easy jobs and playing sports only.

couta1
05-11-2020, 01:07 PM
Enough already! This "debate" 's going nowhere.

:mellow: Like all debates of this nature, just like a cat chasing its tail. PS-Im now going for a walk with my dog.

Bjauck
05-11-2020, 01:12 PM
Like I wrote, overseas students come to study here and pay mega bucks for the privilege. Nothing wrong with our education - everything wrong with the attitude of those who prefer easy jobs and playing sports only. I had been addressing your criticism related to Maori in the 1960's and 70's.

However are you implying that the current education system is more geared up to satisfying international students rather than the circumstances and challenges faced by domestic NZ populations?

Bjauck
05-11-2020, 01:19 PM
Like all debates of this nature, just like a cat chasing its tail. PS-Im now going for a walk with my dog. Most off-market threads are like that. Perhaps you could offer your thoughts as to whether you think the Labour Party education policy will help more Maori engage more with education and whether that is desirable?

Balance
05-11-2020, 02:06 PM
I had been addressing your criticism related to Maori in the 1960's and 70's.

However are you implying that the current education system is more geared up to satisfying international students rather than the circumstances and challenges faced by domestic NZ populations?

Not so.

Actually I am pointing to the fact that NZ education has been highly regarded and prized overseas since the 1960s. So much so that international students pay top dollars to get an education here.

Meanwhile, local students (Maori in this instance per our line of discussion currently) seem to prefer other pursuits when free education is so readily and easily available.

Some pursuits - easy jobs (refer importation of Pacific Islanders), sports (they all think they can be the next Lomu) and easy money, often via benefits but sometimes via gangs and via crime.

That’s one reason ( obviously there are other reasons like racial discrimination and deprivation of their cultural heritage) why they are so heavily represented in the wrong stats of health, crime and poverty.

Let’s call a spade a spade instead of dancing around political correctness. Progress and real remedial actions can only be made when the truth is confronted.

When was the last time you heard or read a leader urging Maori to embrace education?

Education, education and education.

Forget about race - it’s all about attitude and the desire to better oneself.

Balance
05-11-2020, 02:12 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-government-spends-last-of-pgf-100m-for-nationwide-marae-upgrades/O2HHYOW7PRQ5LCEPXBGLAW762E/

$100m of taxpayers’ funds to fix marae around NZ.

Easy as - no need to use any of the billions of dollars of settlement monies to maintain their marae and all important cultural centre piece - just put the hand out, in exchange for their votes.

What kind of signal is the government sending?

Any wonder some Maori grow up with a welfare grievance mindset?

westerly
05-11-2020, 04:12 PM
Appearances matter - always have and will always do.

First impressions matter hugely.

Anyone who thinks otherwise obviously has no idea how the real world operates.

And we now have a foreign minister who looks sloppy because she is obviously overweight and has a tattoo on her face - but everyone overseas dealing with her when she is interacting with them are supposed to look past that because she is Maori?

Point is that Cindy has no idea how the real world operates out there - cloud cuckoo fantasy land.

Give the lady a chance. You maybe surprised.https://www.newsroom.co.nz/podcast-card/the-life-and-times-of-nanaia-mahuta?utm_source=Friends+of+the+Newsroom&utm_campaign=cf99e4fbc6-Daily+Briefing+5.11.20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-cf99e4fbc6-97605709

westerly

fungus pudding
05-11-2020, 04:30 PM
Give the lady a chance. You maybe surprised.https://www.newsroom.co.nz/podcast-card/the-life-and-times-of-nanaia-mahuta?utm_source=Friends+of+the+Newsroom&utm_campaign=cf99e4fbc6-Daily+Briefing+5.11.20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-cf99e4fbc6-97605709

westerly

I note in that article that she had 'read her papers'. Fantastic.

Balance
06-11-2020, 08:11 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/shane-te-pou-nanaia-mahutas-appointment-a-rock-solid-call/CBDIFPNRYD3WCGVGUQ3GSLYKHQ/

Another perspective on Mahuta.

Bjauck
06-11-2020, 08:57 AM
You are right, not much back then. We now have "Whanau classes" where things are taught in maori language and customs and not in line with the mainstream teaching. My wife sometimes teaches in some of these classes and I really fear for the future of many of the kids that are being put through there. Will they be employable and able to find their way in the World ? It is my big fear they are not. Is it possible we are already seeing the result of this lacklustre PC approach to education over the last couple of decades, in the lack of willingness of many young people to work ?
I suspect it is a contributing factor. The bedrock is to have a connected child with a stable home life. I don't see why children educated in Te Reo as their first language and grounded in Tikanga Maori could not thrive. That is not to say that English classes and other general syllabus subjects should not be an integral part of curricula as well.

Bi-lingual, Poly-lingual and multicultural societies can thrive. Belgium and Switzerland are good examples. The push for Irish Gaelic language education in Ireland has coincided with a general increase in improvement in educational and economic attainment.

Those disconnected from cultural roots and brought up in mono-lingual households may even be disadvantaged?

iceman
06-11-2020, 09:05 AM
The bedrock is to have a connected child with a stable home life. I don't see why children educated in Te Reo as their first language and grounded in Tikanga Maori could not thrive. That is not to say that English classes and other general syllabus subjects should not be an integral part of curricula as well.

Bi-lingual, Poly-lingual and multicultural societies can thrive. Belgium and Switzerland are good examples. The push for Irish Gaelic language education in Ireland has coincided with a general increase in improvement in educational and economic attainment.

Those disconnected from cultural roots and brought up in mono-lingual households may even be disadvantaged?

I am all in favour of bi-lingual or multi-lingual education. Grew up in such myself and it has done me well. My concern is not about that, but more the totally out of control behaviour in some of those classes. I leave it at that.

fungus pudding
06-11-2020, 09:07 AM
The bedrock is to have a connected child with a stable home life. I don't see why children educated in Te Reo as their first language and grounded in Tikanga Maori could not thrive. That is not to say that English classes and other general syllabus subjects should not be an integral part of curricula as well.

Bi-lingual, Poly-lingual and multicultural societies can thrive. Belgium and Switzerland are good examples. The push for Irish Gaelic language education in Ireland has coincided with a general increase in improvement in educational and economic attainment.

Those disconnected from cultural roots and brought up in mono-lingual households may even be disadvantaged?

As long as their first language of Maori doesn't push their English into a poorly or badly spoken and/or written secondary language, they'll be fine. If it does, they will be heavily disadvantaged throughout their lives.

Bjauck
06-11-2020, 09:28 AM
I am all in favour of bi-lingual or multi-lingual education. Grew up in such myself and it has done me well. My concern is not about that, but more the totally out of control behaviour in some of those classes. I leave it at that. That would certainly be a problem. There needs to be a certain degree of structure and direction.

moka
06-11-2020, 10:02 AM
Most off-market threads are like that. Perhaps you could offer your thoughts as to whether you think the Labour Party education policy will help more Maori engage more with education and whether that is desirable?It would be great to see some constructive discussion around what would help Maori become more engaged in education, health or employment but unfortunately these forums are about criticism in the negative sense of blaming and disapproval. They are not about moving forward and making progress but about holding others back, keeping Maori in their place at the bottom of the hierarchy.

Mahuta was described as “that lazy minister as our foreign affairs minister” and yet most of those who post here are lazy because they don’t make an effort to be constructive, they don’t want to think about and learn what needs to change, they don’t want to be educated, because they think they know best. The status quo advantages them and that is good enough for them.

moka
06-11-2020, 10:07 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/shane-te-pou-nanaia-mahutas-appointment-a-rock-solid-call/CBDIFPNRYD3WCGVGUQ3GSLYKHQ/

Another perspective on Mahuta.This comment shows her in a very positive light:

As Minister of Local Government last term, Mahuta had huge success with the so-called "three waters" issue (drinking water, stormwater and wastewater), which meant bringing together dozens of local councils and creating a shared vision.
This was an issue that had potential to blow up in the Government's face. But you barely heard anything about it and real progress has been made, including the creation of the new water services regulator, Taumata Arowai. That's a result Ardern rightly values.

moka
06-11-2020, 10:14 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/shane-te-pou-nanaia-mahutas-appointment-a-rock-solid-call/CBDIFPNRYD3WCGVGUQ3GSLYKHQ/

Another perspective on Mahuta.And another perspective from the article. And isn’t this the truth that the stale pale male is stale in the sense of outdated and not moving with the times.

The best bit is the old grumps and racists moaning about it. It just shows how out of touch and irrelevant they are. It's the 21st century — the days when grey men in suits were in charge are long gone. It's time for the people of Aotearoa to be proud of who we are and display what makes us unique. A skilful, consensus-building wāhine with a moko kauae is the perfect voice for NZ's place in the world.

Sideshow Bob
06-11-2020, 11:13 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123297060/fulton-hogan-makes-222m-profit-pays-dividend-takes-wage-subsidy

Didn't know where to post this, but makes the like of Briscoes and Warehouse look like small potatoes - frigging ridiculous, especially when alot of their income is derived from ratepayers and taxpayers.

They are also frigging completely hopeless - where I live they've spent almost 1 year constructing a roundabout with a pedestrian underpass. WTF. How much have they bilked out of council and Transit NZ? Drive through the roadworks every day and the lack of progress and productivity is simply stunning......

Large corporate donation to Rich Listers care of the Government. :angry::mad ;::cursing:

iceman
06-11-2020, 11:30 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123297060/fulton-hogan-makes-222m-profit-pays-dividend-takes-wage-subsidy

Didn't know where to post this, but makes the like of Briscoes and Warehouse look like small potatoes - frigging ridiculous, especially when alot of their income is derived from ratepayers and taxpayers.

They are also frigging completely hopeless - where I live they've spent almost 1 year constructing a roundabout with a pedestrian underpass. WTF. How much have they bilked out of council and Transit NZ? Drive through the roadworks every day and the lack of progress and productivity is simply stunning......

Large corporate donation to Rich Listers care of the Government. :angry::mad ;::cursing:

Yes read about this yesterday. It is shameful and sadly they are not alone. All companies that pay a dividend in the year they received the Wage Subsidy should show some social responsibility and pay it back.

moka
06-11-2020, 11:53 AM
Another earlier article about Fulton Hogan. It sounds like they see the wage subsidy as an opportunity to strengthen their balance sheet. Overall they had a very good year in spite of Covid.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/fulton-hogan-to-keep-33m-wage-subsidy-despite-bumper-profit-shareholder-dividends/IDI7INJG2MIB5WYFCQFI4HHMQ4/
(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/fulton-hogan-to-keep-33m-wage-subsidy-despite-bumper-profit-shareholder-dividends/IDI7INJG2MIB5WYFCQFI4HHMQ4/)
Engineering and civil construction giant Fulton Hogan will retain about $33.3 million received from the wage subsidy scheme, despite recording a bumper $211m net profit for the year to June 2020.
The privately owned company said it wished to maintain a conservative financial position amid global and local uncertainties.

However, Bruyn said the outlook remains uncertain on both sides of the Tasman, with local government in both countries facing lower budgeted incomes, along with deferred capital expenditure in the private sector, as companies move to strengthen their balance sheets in the short-term.

The annual report showed Bruyn was paid $1.6m in 2020 up from $1.5m in 2019, despite the reduced salary during lockdown.
The company had a total of 3618 staff earning more than $100,000 in 2020, up from 3455 in 2019.
Fulton Hogan is facing different challenges from Covid-19 and said in its annual report it needed to maintain a conservative financial position due to an uncertain outlook both here and overseas.
Given the uncertain outlook, the board decided to declare a reduced final dividend of 33c a share – down from 36c last year – taking the annual dividend to 57c compared to 60c in 2019.

"After a strong first-half financial performance across most of our business, the subsequent impact of Covid-19 caused significant business interruption in the second half of the year, in particular in New Zealand," managing director Cos Bruyn said.
"The abrupt and severe curtailment of works during the six-week, Covid-19 Alert Level 4 lockdown saw over 70 per cent of the company's 4500 New Zealand-based employees unable to work.

"Notwithstanding the potential challenges ahead, morale is high, and the business is well-positioned for the future."

moka
06-11-2020, 02:27 PM
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/06-11-2020/special-votes-bring-bad-news-for-national-cannabis-referendum-still-fails/

The final results of 2020’s general election have been released, with National losing two seats, the Māori Party gaining a seat and the referendum results not changing.

The final result has the Labour Party winning 65 seats, up one seat, and with exactly 50% of the popular vote. The National Party, the core of the official opposition, shed two seats to 33 seats. The Māori Party not only kept its electorate win on election night but added a list seat with a slightly better party vote showing.

Act and the Green Party are still unchanged at 10 seats each. Chlöe Swarbrick held onto Auckland Central, with a margin of 1,068 votes.
With his victory in Waiariki assured, the Māori Party’s Rawiri Waititi will be joined by Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. The party was considered on life-support only months ago and few polls, if any, had expected that it would return to parliament with two seats.

Three electorate wins on election night were overturned on the final result, all of them cases of National losing seats to Labour. Many of the seats were National strongholds which Labour had not expected to win.

Matt King, who held a contested Northland seat for National, lost to Labour’s Willow-Jean Prime by 163 votes. Denise Lee in Maungakiekie lost to Priyanca Radhakrishnan by 635 votes. Dr Shane Reti, National’s health critic in Whangārei, lost to Labour’s Emily Henderson by 431 votes. Reti will be the only one of the three to keep a seat in parliament due to his high place on the party’s list. West Coast-based Maureen Pugh, who was on a precarious place on National’s list, will stay in parliament.

The assisted-dying referendum still won in the end with 65.1% of the vote, with 33.7% opposed.
The cannabis result was tight in the end, with 50.7% opposed to legalisation compared to 48.4% who supported it.

moka
06-11-2020, 03:00 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2020-national-loses-two-seats-labour-and-maori-party-gain-one/QOY5ONV244VBFKTW6OGC2H7EVA/
The final results have Labour on 50 per cent (65 seats), National on 25.6 per cent (33 seats), Act on 7.6 per cent (10 seats), the Greens on 7.9 per cent (10 seats), and the Māori Party with 1.2 per cent (two seats).
Huge lead for Labour over National.

Fifty per cent is the largest share of the party vote for Labour since 1946, and the first time a party has won 50 per cent or more of the party vote since National in 1951.
It is also the largest gap between Labour and National since the two-party system began in 1938.

Official turn out for the 2020 election was 82.2 per cent, up from 79.8 per cent in 2017 and 77.9 per cent in 2014.
Far more people voted in advance - 67.7 per cent - than in previous elections.
Final enrolment was 94.1 per cent of eligible voters, the highest since 2008.

moka
06-11-2020, 03:21 PM
Nanaia Mahuta is the most experienced minister in the Government.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/123282069/test-of-labours-depth-comes-now?rm=a
Of which the one that attracted the most immediate attention was the appointment of Nanaia Mahuta as Minister of Foreign Affairs. That quickly drew criticism on social media, including some that was frankly racist.

It was also a demonstration that when it comes to assessing the performance of politicians, visibility and competence are sometimes conflated. While Mahuta, who has been in Parliament since 1996, may not have held the high profile roles of Hipkins, Woods and Andrew Little, she is the most experienced minister in the Government, having been handed the portfolios of Customs, Local Government and Youth Development by Helen Clark in 2005.

The first woman to wear a moko kauae, which she described as “a statement of identity”, in Parliament, Mahuta has already held the internationally focused roles of associate minister of both trade and export growth, which seem to stand her in good stead for the role.

couta1
06-11-2020, 07:46 PM
Yes read about this yesterday. It is shameful and sadly they are not alone. All companies that pay a dividend in the year they received the Wage Subsidy should show some social responsibility and pay it back. Yep, leaves a very bad taste in one's mouth.

Bjauck
07-11-2020, 08:04 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2020-national-loses-two-seats-labour-and-maori-party-gain-one/QOY5ONV244VBFKTW6OGC2H7EVA/
The final results have Labour on 50 per cent (65 seats), National on 25.6 per cent (33 seats), Act on 7.6 per cent (10 seats), the Greens on 7.9 per cent (10 seats), and the Māori Party with 1.2 per cent (two seats).....

From Muller's Make America Great Again cap to Boag's leaking of confidential information, a Trump-like National Party lost the election bigly!

moka
07-11-2020, 11:04 PM
RSE staff work seven days from dawn to dusk for 2 – 3 months.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/fields-of-courgettes-go-to-waste-because-grower-cant-get-workers/WU663T7JRQVDDOYTBOXMA4VPIY/
Fields of courgettes go to waste because grower can't get workers.
To do that, he needed about 10 staff who are in Thailand and unable to travel to New Zealand, as they have done for years through our Recognised Seasonal Employer scheme that brings in about 14,000 workers from other countries.
For Heap's business, it was geared to Thai workers with specialist knowledge that reduced waste and maximised profitability.
"They have been here year after year. They know what they're doing. They hit the ground running."
With their focus on the short work period, the RSE staff worked the two-to-three month picking season with seven-day working weeks and working days that begin at dawn and finish on dark.
Heap said the productivity differences between RSE workers and local workers was enormous. He needed at least two New Zealanders to do the work of one RSE worker, and the churn of local workers was huge.

iceman
08-11-2020, 07:59 AM
RSE staff work seven days from dawn to dusk for 2 – 3 months.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/fields-of-courgettes-go-to-waste-because-grower-cant-get-workers/WU663T7JRQVDDOYTBOXMA4VPIY/
Fields of courgettes go to waste because grower can't get workers.
To do that, he needed about 10 staff who are in Thailand and unable to travel to New Zealand, as they have done for years through our Recognised Seasonal Employer scheme that brings in about 14,000 workers from other countries.
For Heap's business, it was geared to Thai workers with specialist knowledge that reduced waste and maximised profitability.
"They have been here year after year. They know what they're doing. They hit the ground running."
With their focus on the short work period, the RSE staff worked the two-to-three month picking season with seven-day working weeks and working days that begin at dawn and finish on dark.
Heap said the productivity differences between RSE workers and local workers was enormous. He needed at least two New Zealanders to do the work of one RSE worker, and the churn of local workers was huge.

Poor things. No wonder Kiwis don't want to do this work. Yea right.
Stop justifying laziness moka ! If you're on the unemployment benefit and you are young and able, get of your arse and go and work. Very simple. Almost every restaurant here in Nelson is advertising for staff, but can't get good people. Add that to all the primary industries. WTF !!!!

jonu
08-11-2020, 08:33 AM
Poor things. No wonder Kiwis don't want to do this work. Yea right.
Stop justifying laziness moka ! If you're on the unemployment benefit and you are young and able, get of your arse and go and work. Very simple. Almost every restaurant here in Nelson is advertising for staff, but can't get good people. Add that to all the primary industries. WTF !!!!

I know going to sound like the Monty Python sketch but when I were young...

I did haymaking in the 80s as a teenager. You didn't stop until the last bale was in. If you had problems or a difficult paddock that could be 2am. The farmer would normally bring a feed out to the paddock and a beer for when you were finished. If there was no dew you were back on the job at 9am. It would get to the stage where you would pray for rain. It was reasonable money (any pay was good money to a teenager) but you worked your arse off. I remember being so exhausted (and probably dehydrated) unloading in a haybarn up in the rafters under a tin roof on a hot HB day. Would have been 40+ degrees in there. The thought crossed my mind to fall off the truck to get out of it. If the loader broke you heaved the bales up by hand. My older brothers did more of it than I did and it paid their way through varsity.

It taught me a lot about resilience and toughened me up, much like my rugby playing days. Oh dear I'm starting to sound all PMS (Pale stale male...not the other type). Thing is...I talk to a few of the old kaumatua around here and they will tell you similar stories.

Young people need to be encouraged to test their physical and mental limits through hard work and recreational activity. Seasonal work is a good place to start.

artemis
08-11-2020, 08:59 AM
Poor things. No wonder Kiwis don't want to do this work. Yea right.
Stop justifying laziness moka ! If you're on the unemployment benefit and you are young and able, get of your arse and go and work. Very simple. Almost every restaurant here in Nelson is advertising for staff, but can't get good people. Add that to all the primary industries. WTF !!!!

Lindsay Mitchell posted recently about official Stats unemployment rate and actual recipients of Jobseeker benefits. Including Tasman, though she does note a difference in coverage area for Tasman.

Noticeable difference between % on JS and Stats %, though she notes some possible reasons for this. Still, that % represents a lot of individuals in each location on JS.

https://lindsaymitchell.blogspot.com/2020/11/unemployment-rate-versus-jobseeker.html

iceman
08-11-2020, 09:51 AM
I know going to sound like the Monty Python sketch but when I were young...

I did haymaking in the 80s as a teenager. You didn't stop until the last bale was in. If you had problems or a difficult paddock that could be 2am. The farmer would normally bring a feed out to the paddock and a beer for when you were finished. If there was no dew you were back on the job at 9am. It would get to the stage where you would pray for rain. It was reasonable money (any pay was good money to a teenager) but you worked your arse off. I remember being so exhausted (and probably dehydrated) unloading in a haybarn up in the rafters under a tin roof on a hot HB day. Would have been 40+ degrees in there. The thought crossed my mind to fall off the truck to get out of it. If the loader broke you heaved the bales up by hand. My older brothers did more of it than I did and it paid their way through varsity.

It taught me a lot about resilience and toughened me up, much like my rugby playing days. Oh dear I'm starting to sound all PMS (Pale stale male...not the other type). Thing is...I talk to a few of the old kaumatua around here and they will tell you similar stories.

Young people need to be encouraged to test their physical and mental limits through hard work and recreational activity. Seasonal work is a good place to start.

Hear hear. That is the attitude we need back in NZ

iceman
08-11-2020, 09:54 AM
Lindsay Mitchell posted recently about official Stats unemployment rate and actual recipients of Jobseeker benefits. Including Tasman, though she does note a difference in coverage area for Tasman.

Noticeable difference between % on JS and Stats %, though she notes some possible reasons for this. Still, that % represents a lot of individuals in each location on JS.

https://lindsaymitchell.blogspot.com/2020/11/unemployment-rate-versus-jobseeker.html

Thanks for posting this artemis. Summarises what I have been trying to say and am seeing in my industry. Lots of young (mainly) people simply do not want to work.

Bjauck
08-11-2020, 01:45 PM
Poor things. No wonder Kiwis don't want to do this work. Yea right.
Stop justifying laziness moka ! If you're on the unemployment benefit and you are young and able, get of your arse and go and work. Very simple. Almost every restaurant here in Nelson is advertising for staff, but can't get good people. Add that to all the primary industries. WTF !!!!

Are you serious? Did you read the work conditions?
"With their focus on the short work period, the RSE staff worked the two-to-three month picking season with seven-day working weeks and working days that begin at dawn and finish on dark."

They are antebellum plantation cotton-picking conditions. It is no surprise that NZ plantation owners are missing their supply of foreign workers from impoverished countries. Pay and conditions should be fit for C21st New Zealanders. If it is not profitable - the land should be turned over for other uses.

artemis
08-11-2020, 07:12 PM
Are you serious? Did you read the work conditions?
"With their focus on the short work period, the RSE staff worked the two-to-three month picking season with seven-day working weeks and working days that begin at dawn and finish on dark."

They are antebellum plantation cotton-picking conditions. It is no surprise that NZ plantation owners are missing their supply of foreign workers from impoverished countries. Pay and conditions should be fit for C21st New Zealanders. If it is not profitable - the land should be turned over for other uses.

The Thai workers will not be paid less than minimum wage, and they seem to be happy to come back year after year. Like some of the PI RSE workers a short stint of hard work each year will set them up back home. Some talk about their savings letting them build a house.

Sounds like the courgette farmer is looking at closing the business.

iceman
09-11-2020, 07:05 AM
Are you serious? Did you read the work conditions?
"With their focus on the short work period, the RSE staff worked the two-to-three month picking season with seven-day working weeks and working days that begin at dawn and finish on dark."

They are antebellum plantation cotton-picking conditions. It is no surprise that NZ plantation owners are missing their supply of foreign workers from impoverished countries. Pay and conditions should be fit for C21st New Zealanders. If it is not profitable - the land should be turned over for other uses.

Yes I am serious. Do you really think working from dawn to dusk is unusual in many primary industries during harvesting ? All the workers get paid at least the ever increasing minimum wage and the conditions ARE fit for C21st New Zealanders, or at least they should be for people with a good working attitude. I inspected a Seeka kiwifruit orchard a few years ago and spoke to RSI workers from Samoa. They were very happy with their conditions and what I saw was perfectly acceptable in all areas.
Workers do not have to work 7 days a week but the RSE workers choose to do so because they are making a lot of money for a few weeks/months to take back to their families.

Did you read this sentence in the article ? "Heap said the productivity differences between RSE workers and local workers was enormous. He needed at least two New Zealanders to do the work of one RSE worker, and the churn of local workers was huge.
Do you think this may be at least part of the problem, both lack of productivity and unreliability (i.e. will they turn up for work today !) ?

Bjauck
09-11-2020, 08:38 AM
Yes I am serious. Do you really think working from dawn to dusk is unusual in many primary industries during harvesting ? All the workers get paid at least the ever increasing minimum wage and the conditions ARE fit for C21st New Zealanders, or at least they should be for people with a good working attitude. I inspected a Seeka kiwifruit orchard a few years ago and spoke to RSI workers from Samoa. They were very happy with their conditions and what I saw was perfectly acceptable in all areas....

Are you saying that NZers don't have a good working attitude because they do not want to work dawn-to-dusk 7 days a week for several months for wages and conditions poor workers from Pacific Islands tell you they are grateful for?

I can certainly see it is a way to denigrate and to try keep Kiwi workers in their place for the benefit of NZ plantation owners

Covid has certainly revealed that NZ had become dependant on the supply of poor young Pacific Islander seasonal workers. So young NZers trained and were employed in other fields. As these young NZers are becoming unemployed as a result of covid, they are then unfairly criticised for being lazy if they do not suddenly work for the plantation owners, who no longer have the same access to the foreign temporary workers.

iceman
09-11-2020, 01:02 PM
Are you saying that NZers don't have a good working attitude because they do not want to work dawn-to-dusk 7 days a week for several months for wages and conditions poor workers from Pacific Islands tell you they are grateful for?

I can certainly see it is a way to denigrate and to try keep Kiwi workers in their place for the benefit of NZ plantation owners

Covid has certainly revealed that NZ had become dependant on the supply of poor young Pacific Islander seasonal workers. So young NZers trained and were employed in other fields. As these young NZers are becoming unemployed as a result of covid, they are then unfairly criticised for being lazy if they do not suddenly work for the plantation owners, who no longer have the same access to the foreign temporary workers.

You are totally twisting my words. I've given examples on these threads about the difficulty getting crew on fishing vessels and it certainly is not due to conditions or pay as you and others constantly and incorrectly claim on here. Same applies to horticulture, agriculture and now even stories about hospitality struggling to get staff. Meanwhile we have high unemployment and the country's finances out of control. Yes I think a lot of it has to do with laziness and an increasing culture of not wanting to work hard when benefits are readily available. The "team of 5 million" is not so enthusiastic about contributing to pull the country through our current predicament.

Bjauck
09-11-2020, 01:23 PM
You are totally twisting my words. I've given examples on these threads about the difficulty getting crew on fishing vessels and it certainly is not due to conditions or pay as you and others constantly and incorrectly claim on here. Same applies to horticulture, agriculture and now even stories about hospitality struggling to get staff. Meanwhile we have high unemployment and the country's finances out of control. Yes I think a lot of it has to do with laziness and an increasing culture of not wanting to work hard when benefits are readily available. The "team of 5 million" is not so enthusiastic about contributing to pull the country through our current predicament.

So some employers who have been used to getting foreign workers in to work for pay and conditions that appeal to those foreigners, now find covid regulations make it difficult to do that. So NZers who have been used to working in different fields are now expected to step into those areas - with the pay and conditions that were satisfactory for those foreigners - previously occupied by the foreign fly-ins? It seems to me a totally unrealistic expectation from those employers.

Bjauck
09-11-2020, 02:23 PM
... The "team of 5 million" is not so enthusiastic about contributing to pull the country through our current predicament. Your "team of Five million" would be happy to share the windfall capital gains from dropping interest rates too to help their country pay back Covid debts?

moka
09-11-2020, 03:10 PM
Poor things. No wonder Kiwis don't want to do this work. Yea right.
Stop justifying laziness moka ! If you're on the unemployment benefit and you are young and able, get of your arse and go and work. Very simple. Almost every restaurant here in Nelson is advertising for staff, but can't get good people. Add that to all the primary industries. WTF !!!!Your very simple statement – “if you are on Jobseeker and are young and able get off your arse and go to work”, ignores the fact that it is not simple. It is complex and there are many reasons why people aren’t suitable for the available work, be it fishing, primary industries, hospitality.

35% of people on Jobseeker have a health or disability condition according to Lindsay Mitchell. But latest figures show 40% in Nelson. What used to be Sickness Benefit is now included in Jobseeker.
https://figure.nz/chart/LFqu54yxs5lkzxQE-lbu55DtuwNXpRFON
(https://figure.nz/chart/LFqu54yxs5lkzxQE-lbu55DtuwNXpRFON)
Nelson Region, New Zealand By age group, 2020 Q2, number of people receiving Jobseeker Support benefits = 2002 people (other chart says 1657 people)

18 -24yr = 24% = 485 but 40% have health condition or disability, = 291, 50% women who don’t want to work on a fishing boat = 145 people, some are in training, some are in part time work or so 100 people who might be available for work, but are they suitable for that particular work?

25 -39yr 29%
40 -54yr 25%
55 – 65yr 20%

https://figure.nz/chart/LFqu54yxs5lkzxQE-lbu55DtuwNXpRFON
https://figure.nz/chart/ZXKiIFIBwU7JexiJ-Zxp8Wnljsvm9p8pa

Zaphod
09-11-2020, 05:01 PM
Your very simple statement – “if you are on Jobseeker and are young and able get off your arse and go to work”, ignores the fact that it is not simple. It is complex and there are many reasons why people aren’t suitable for the available work, be it fishing, primary industries, hospitality.

35% of people on Jobseeker have a health or disability condition according to Lindsay Mitchell. But latest figures show 40% in Nelson. What used to be Sickness Benefit is now included in Jobseeker.
https://figure.nz/chart/LFqu54yxs5lkzxQE-lbu55DtuwNXpRFON
(https://figure.nz/chart/LFqu54yxs5lkzxQE-lbu55DtuwNXpRFON)
Nelson Region, New Zealand By age group, 2020 Q2, number of people receiving Jobseeker Support benefits = 2002 people (other chart says 1657 people)

18 -24yr = 24% = 485 but 40% have health condition or disability, = 291, 50% women who don’t want to work on a fishing boat = 145 people, some are in training, some are in part time work or so 100 people who might be available for work, but are they suitable for that particular work?

25 -39yr 29%
40 -54yr 25%
55 – 65yr 20%

https://figure.nz/chart/LFqu54yxs5lkzxQE-lbu55DtuwNXpRFON
https://figure.nz/chart/ZXKiIFIBwU7JexiJ-Zxp8Wnljsvm9p8pa

I think iceman is alluding to that fact that these jobs could be filled by anyone throughout the country, not necessarily just those in Nelson itself. Some of my colleagues moved there over the uni holidays to earn some extra cash, working some crazy hours, but were well rewarded in the end.

moka
09-11-2020, 05:15 PM
You are totally twisting my words. I've given examples on these threads about the difficulty getting crew on fishing vessels and it certainly is not due to conditions or pay as you and others constantly and incorrectly claim on here. Same applies to horticulture, agriculture and now even stories about hospitality struggling to get staff. Meanwhile we have high unemployment and the country's finances out of control. Yes I think a lot of it has to do with laziness and an increasing culture of not wanting to work hard when benefits are readily available. The "team of 5 million" is not so enthusiastic about contributing to pull the country through our current predicament.Working on a fishing vessel doesn’t sound very attractive according to the government careers site. Not everyone is suitable, especially if they get seasick. It is work that appeals to a limited number of people. A few love it, but many of us would not enjoy it.

Chances of getting a job as a deckhand are good due to high turnover of staff.
may spend up to a week at a time at sea. Those on deep-sea fishing boats can spend 40 to 50 days at sea, working six hours on, six hours off
work in all types of weather conditions, including hazardous, very rough seas
may travel to different ports around New Zealand. Those working on deep-sea fishing boats may fish in the South Pacific or Southern Ocean
https://www.careers.govt.nz/jobs-database/transport-and-logistics/transport-logistics/deckhand/

blackcap
09-11-2020, 05:33 PM
Working on a fishing vessel doesn’t sound very attractive according to the government careers site. Not everyone is suitable, especially if they get seasick. It is work that appeals to a limited number of people. A few love it, but many of us would not enjoy it.

Chances of getting a job as a deckhand are good due to high turnover of staff.
may spend up to a week at a time at sea. Those on deep-sea fishing boats can spend 40 to 50 days at sea, working six hours on, six hours off
work in all types of weather conditions, including hazardous, very rough seas
may travel to different ports around New Zealand. Those working on deep-sea fishing boats may fish in the South Pacific or Southern Ocean
https://www.careers.govt.nz/jobs-database/transport-and-logistics/transport-logistics/deckhand/

Cry me a river. So what if its not attractive or enjoyable. Many people do not enjoy their work but do have the responsibility to go out and do it even if they do not like it because they need to provide for their family. What a weak and sick society we have bred and created with all this welfare and entitlement.

moka
09-11-2020, 05:53 PM
I think it is very difficult to say if there will be a long term impact from this debacle, although it is quite possible that a more negative sentiment towards the practice of using foreign crew may develop, even within Government.
I do note that these vessels have historically been used to catch significant amounts of lower value species such as mackerel that Kiwi boats have not targeted to any large degree due to poor economics. But they also catch species like hoki and squid.
All of these vessels are NZ flagged, after a law change some years ago but obviously you will not get Kiwis on these boats when the likes of Sealords advertise for crew with an ability to speak Russian !! But because they are NZ flagged, NZ laws, including employment law, applies to them and that includes minimum wages. So the Russian fishermen are not "slave labour" by any stretch of the imagination.

It should be noted that Sanford has NZ crew on their own vessels (not sure if they still charter a Korean vessel with Korean crew) and Talley's always crew all of their vessels with NZ crew. Sealord has a couple of these Russians, Independent Fisheries 3 I think and Maruha also uses only foreign crew (like Independent). Sadly Sealord also has a significant part of the crew foreign, on their new and flash vessel Tokatu. This is due to the fact that it is near on impossible to get keen, reliable young Kiwis to work in the sector. They don't want to go away for many weekends and they don't want to be subjected to random drug tests.
People often say that is due to low earnings but I don't agree. An unqualified 18 yo hard worker can go out on the factory trawlers (5 weeks trips) and work for 6 months of the year starting at $40-50k. No food or accommodation costs for those 6 months. If they work hard, the companies will pay for them to go to various courses and I know of a boy here in Nelson that had his full Qualified Fishing Deckhand after 3 years and earning $70k p.a. for 6 months work. Another became a factory manager after 5 years on around $120k. So there are opportunities for people to do well in the industry but people are not available. There is a crewing crisis in the industry.

Sadly, until we change the attitudes and get young people interested in hard physical work again, foreign crewed vessels will always be part of the industry.On the SANford thread you posted that “but obviously you will not get Kiwis on these boats when the likes of Sealords advertise for crew with an ability to speak Russian !!”
I noticed a few years ago an ad for workers in a Kiwifruit packhouse saying 12 hour shifts. A lot of women with children worked in packhouses but 12 hour shifts exclude them. So by having the power to set employment conditions employers can say we have no suitable NZ applicants and then get RSE workers who will work longer and harder than Kiwis, so it is more profitable for businesses to employ RSE staff. It does keep the cost of food down, but it also drives down wages and creates unemployment.

moka
09-11-2020, 06:46 PM
Cry me a river. So what if its not attractive or enjoyable. Many people do not enjoy their work but do have the responsibility to go out and do it even if they do not like it because they need to provide for their family. What a weak and sick society we have bred and created with all this welfare and entitlement.I am not a believer in the protestant work ethic also called Calvinist or puritan where hard work is a signifier of one's salvation and that diligence in one's work is pleasing to God. Who wants to be a martyr, suffer on earth and receive your reward in heaven?

I don’t subscribe to beliefs that life should be hard and men should be tough and just get on with it. Attitudes like that lead to drug and alcohol addictions, depression, mental health issues and suicide, and a host of other social problems.

Some people are not in jobs that are attractive or enjoyable which is tolerable for a short time if you expect to move on to something better, but intolerable if you are trapped in such a job.
Not liking your job is okay, but hating your job is not. I have talked to retired men who hated most if not all their jobs. What sort of life is that? Welfare and human rights are the signs of a civilised society.

couta1
09-11-2020, 07:43 PM
Cry me a river. So what if its not attractive or enjoyable. Many people do not enjoy their work but do have the responsibility to go out and do it even if they do not like it because they need to provide for their family. What a weak and sick society we have bred and created with all this welfare and entitlement. Yes imagine if everyone just gave up on their marriage when tough times arrive and its not as enjoyable as it was or should be, actually that happens a lot in this new PC bull**** society.

Bjauck
09-11-2020, 09:41 PM
Yes imagine if everyone just gave up on their marriage when tough times arrive and its not as enjoyable as it was or should be, actually that happens a lot in this new PC bull**** society. Women trapped in loveless unions and not able to have a career with equal pay. The good old days!

Serfs dependant on the good will of the land owning gentry in the absence of a welfare society. Few minimum employment conditions. The good old days!

I am thankful for the work that has been done through the years by each generation of PC activists!

blackcap
09-11-2020, 09:43 PM
Women trapped in loveless unions and not able to have a career with equal pay.

I think you are twisting things here again. Couta did not mention one side of the coin. In fact when I read his post I thought he was referring to males leaving a marriage because its the easy thing to do. I could be wrong, maybe he meant either party.

Bjauck
09-11-2020, 09:50 PM
I think you are twisting things here again. Couta did not mention one side of the coin. In fact when I read his post I thought he was referring to males leaving a marriage because its the easy thing to do. I could be wrong, maybe he meant either party.
Ah but it was so often the woman who was trapped in the marriage, as before we had this “PC bull**** society” they were expected to keep house as the husband had the career. And of course until the DP Benefit there was no state support should they have left.

justakiwi
09-11-2020, 09:51 PM
The PC thing to do would be stay in the marriage, so I think your argument is more than a little contradictory.

I also, respectfully suggest, that unless you have experienced separation and divorce yourself, you would be wise not to judge those of us who have :mad ;:


Yes imagine if everyone just gave up on their marriage when tough times arrive and its not as enjoyable as it was or should be, actually that happens a lot in this new PC bull**** society.

couta1
09-11-2020, 10:22 PM
The PC thing to do would be stay in the marriage, so I think your argument is more than a little contradictory.

I also, respectfully suggest, that unless you have experienced separation and divorce yourself, you would be wise not to judge those of us who have :mad ;: Yes I have been the victim of a cheating partner and subsequent divorce but have been in a long term committed 2nd marriage for near 20yrs now which we have both worked hard at and are enjoying the fruits of our committment. PS-My post wasn't judging anyone, just an observation of a negative side of our society where people are often so quick to chuck the towel in.

justakiwi
09-11-2020, 10:30 PM
My condolences on the cheating partner experience and congratulations on your subsequent successful marriage. I mean that. But please don't judge others who are separated or divorced. Divorce is a hugely traumatic experience and not something most of us chose lightly. There are many reasons marriages end and - it is not always about cheating or abuse or anything of that nature either. Being miserable together is no way to live.

Just saying.


Yes I have been the victim of a cheating partner and subsequent divorce but have been in a long term committed 2nd marriage for near 20yrs now which we have both worked hard at and are enjoying the fruits of our commitment.

Bjauck
10-11-2020, 07:45 AM
Yes I have been the victim of a cheating partner and subsequent divorce but have been in a long term committed 2nd marriage for near 20yrs now which we have both worked hard at and are enjoying the fruits of our committment. PS-My post wasn't judging anyone, just an observation of a negative side of our society where people are often so quick to chuck the towel in.

Not a nice situation. I have seen families ripped apart in similar circumstances.

Thankfully a social welfare net is available to help separated families to get back on their feet.

For some people subsequent relationships also fail. Also their children are more likely to have relationships that split up.

artemis
10-11-2020, 07:55 AM
Reasons and excuses are easy these days with kind and generous welfare. 6.5% of estimated working age population on Jobseeker, and that does not include the un- or under-employed with partner or other income.

Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.

Bjauck
10-11-2020, 07:57 AM
Reasons and excuses are easy these days with kind and generous welfare. 6.5% of estimated working age population on Jobseeker, and that does not include the un- or under-employed with partner or other income.

Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times....and women of course.

Reasons and excuses are common in all sectors of society. The human experience has been and is dynamic. Good and charitable times allow more people to achieve their potential. A greater pool of talent made available from which a great leader may emerge.

justakiwi
10-11-2020, 08:09 AM
Just another BS judgmental generalisation.



Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.

artemis
10-11-2020, 08:21 AM
Just another BS judgmental generalisation.

Certainly it is a generalisation and descriptive rather than judgmental.

But as they say, cliches get to be cliches for a reason.

Balance
10-11-2020, 08:24 AM
Just another BS judgmental generalisation.

Go for a walk, justakiwi.

You need it or do you need a cuddle? 😉

Sgt Pepper
10-11-2020, 09:45 AM
Some predictions for 2021

There will be a massive Nurses strike next winter shutting down the DHBs which will test the resolve of the government

The government will ponder the appointment of the next Governor General when Dame Patsy Reddy term ends. One thing is certain, it cant be a Pakeha male under any circumstances. Optics are paramount, competence and experience optional extras.
what are others opinions?

Balance
10-11-2020, 10:05 AM
Some predictions for 2021

There will be a massive Nurses strike next winter shutting down the DHBs which will test the resolve of the government

The government will ponder the appointment of the next Governor General when Dame Patsy Reddy term ends. One thing is certain, it cant be a Pakeha male under any circumstances. Optics are paramount, competence and experience optional extras.
what are others opinions?

Time for a LGBT?

And must have tattoos all over the body.

blackcap
10-11-2020, 10:49 AM
Time for a LGBT?

And must have tattoos all over the body.

Why not a POC LGBT in a wheelchair? That should cover all bases.

fungus pudding
10-11-2020, 10:53 AM
Go for a walk, justakiwi.

You need it or do you need a cuddle? ��

Bet you're not volunteering.

fungus pudding
10-11-2020, 11:06 AM
Why not a POC LGBT in a wheelchair? That should cover all bases.

Better with a guide dog alongside the wheelchair.

jonu
10-11-2020, 11:07 AM
Why not a POC LGBT in a wheelchair? That should cover all bases.

Not really blackcap. There's an awful lot of letters missing from that alphabet soup. By the way....do gingers count as POC? (asking for a friend).

Lest we forget....all folks who look the same think the same according to leftie identity politics....not that they are racist or misogynist or anything. Couldn't be...that would be problematic wouldn't it?

moka
10-11-2020, 11:18 AM
Yes read about this yesterday (= Fulton Hogan). It is shameful and sadly they are not alone. All companies that pay a dividend in the year they received the Wage Subsidy should show some social responsibility and pay it back.Good to see Jacinda is listening to the public who have concerns over some companies keeping the wage subsidy.

Yesterday, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said she would be asking the Ministry of Social Development to make do an audit on companies that had taken the wage subsidy offer over the past few months.
That was on the back of companies such as Fulton Hogan, which took up the offer of a wage subsidy then went on to make a huge profit.
"There is a moral question here," Ardern said.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/covid-19-coronavirus-grant-robertson-on-the-state-of-the-economy/7GV3OKIBI3YJB4UXPINZP7GKUA/

Balance
10-11-2020, 11:24 AM
Good to see Jacinda is listening to the public who have concerns over some companies keeping the wage subsidy.

Yesterday, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said she would be asking the Ministry of Social Development to make do an audit on companies that had taken the wage subsidy offer over the past few months.
That was on the back of companies such as Fulton Hogan, which took up the offer of a wage subsidy then went on to make a huge profit.
"There is a moral question here," Ardern said.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/covid-19-coronavirus-grant-robertson-on-the-state-of-the-economy/7GV3OKIBI3YJB4UXPINZP7GKUA/

Moral question from the hijab wearing Cindy (even after there were pleadings for her not to wear it again) - the hijab is the symbol of oppression in some Muslim countries like Iran?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world...headscarf.html

"An Iranian woman who removed her headscarf in protest has been jailed for 24 years. It comes after three Iranian women were also given lengthy prison sentences for publicly protesting against the compulsory wearing of veils earlier this month."

Rich, very very rich from the cynical one who only knows morality when it suits her popularity.

Where are her morals when she decided to ignore the oppression of these women when the issue was brought to her notice?

She is disgusting beyond contempt.

Bjauck
10-11-2020, 11:26 AM
Not really blackcap. There's an awful lot of letters missing from that alphabet soup. By the way....do gingers count as POC? (asking for a friend).

Lest we forget....all folks who look the same think the same according to leftie identity politics....not that they are racist or misogynist or anything. Couldn't be...that would be problematic wouldn't it?

I reckon we should put our hand up and take The Donald off the USA's hands. Maybe we would get first dibs on Pfizer's Covid vaccine as a thankyou gift.

Donald Trump as Governor-General would act as lightening rod for both demonstrators and other bigots alike. He would plonk a golf course on Ihumatao land. In the meantime the government would quietly go about its business spreading sweetness and light.

moka
10-11-2020, 04:24 PM
Moral question from the hijab wearing Cindy (even after there were pleadings for her not to wear it again) - the hijab is the symbol of oppression in some Muslim countries like Iran?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world...headscarf.html

"An Iranian woman who removed her headscarf in protest has been jailed for 24 years. It comes after three Iranian women were also given lengthy prison sentences for publicly protesting against the compulsory wearing of veils earlier this month."

Rich, very very rich from the cynical one who only knows morality when it suits her popularity.

Where are her morals when she decided to ignore the oppression of these women when the issue was brought to her notice?

She is disgusting beyond contempt.Jacinda wore the hijab to show respect and support. In an interview Jacinda said “I gave it very little thought to do it. It was so obvious to me. It gave women in the community a sense of security that it is safe to wear the hijab in the community.”

So while you focus on women in other countries Muslim women in New Zealand get harassed for wearing a hijab so she was focusing on what happens in New Zealand and supporting those women who choose to wear a hijab here. Some women choose to wear a hijab and some women choose not to. And in both cases men are telling women what to wear, what to do, and wanting to control them, to oppress them rather than let women choose to do what they want.

Your comment that she is disgusting beyond contempt is more a reflection about you and your attitude towards some women than it a factual comment about her.

https://twitter.com/theprojecttv/status/1110099877105532929

justakiwi
10-11-2020, 05:44 PM
You are like a dog with a bone sometimes Balance. People have tried to explain this to you in numerous occasions but you simply choose not to “get it.”

I don’t support the oppression of women by men, or any other kind of oppression for that matter. But if people belonging to a particular culture or religion, are happy and safe living in that kind of environment, that is their decision to make. I watched a lot of the TV footage at the time of the Christchurch terror attacks. I did not see even one instance of physical intimidation, or any sign of any woman appearing fearful of the men they were with. Quite the opposite. I saw families of husbands and wives and children, embracing each other, comforting each other and demonstrating love and kindness towards each other. I made a point of looking for oppressive behaviours and saw none. Same thing at subsequent community services that were held at various times. Yes, there are always going to be men who abuse, intimidate or control their wives. Plenty of Kiwi men fall into this category without any cultural or religious influences. You only have to look at our domestic violence rates to know that. Many white, Kiwi women live in an oppressive marriage or relationship, and more than a few women and children die every year at the hands of those men.

Your beliefs about the hijab are false. Yes, women are “directed” to wear them, but they do not all choose to do this as moka has pointed out. Jacinda’ s wearing of the hijab was a mark of respect to Muslim women in NZ, and the Muslim community were consulted beforehand. Did you even watch any of the interactions between Jacinda and Muslim women on TV? Unlike you, they fully understood and appreciated her genuine compassion and the humanity she showed them. The fact that you still, for some unfathomable reason, cannot see that, says more about you than it does about Jacinda. She is the least cynical, the least dishonest, the least manipulative politician/PM we have seen in this country for years. The rest of the world is intelligent enough to see that - but not you. Jacinda, just like the rest of us, is not perfect. But she is not the woman you try to convince us she is. You could not be more wrong in your judgment of her.


Moral question from the hijab wearing Cindy (even after there were pleadings for her not to wear it again) - the hijab is the symbol of oppression in some Muslim countries like Iran?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world...headscarf.html

"An Iranian woman who removed her headscarf in protest has been jailed for 24 years. It comes after three Iranian women were also given lengthy prison sentences for publicly protesting against the compulsory wearing of veils earlier this month."

Rich, very very rich from the cynical one who only knows morality when it suits her popularity.

Where are her morals when she decided to ignore the oppression of these women when the issue was brought to her notice?

She is disgusting beyond contempt.

couta1
10-11-2020, 07:58 PM
You are like a dog with a bone sometimes Balance. People have tried to explain this to you in numerous occasions but you simply choose not to “get it.”

I don’t support the oppression of women by men, or any other kind of oppression for that matter. But if people belonging to a particular culture or religion, are happy and safe living in that kind of environment, that is their decision to make. I watched a lot of the TV footage at the time of the Christchurch terror attacks. I did not see even one instance of physical intimidation, or any sign of any woman appearing fearful of the men they were with. Quite the opposite. I saw families of husbands and wives and children, embracing each other, comforting each other and demonstrating love and kindness towards each other. I made a point of looking for oppressive behaviours and saw none. Same thing at subsequent community services that were held at various times. Yes, there are always going to be men who abuse, intimidate or control their wives. Plenty of Kiwi men fall into this category without any cultural or religious influences. You only have to look at our domestic violence rates to know that. Many white, Kiwi women live in an oppressive marriage or relationship, and more than a few women and children die every year at the hands of those men.

Your beliefs about the hijab are false. Yes, women are “directed” to wear them, but they do not all choose to do this as moka has pointed out. Jacinda’ s wearing of the hijab was a mark of respect to Muslim women in NZ, and the Muslim community were consulted beforehand. Did you even watch any of the interactions between Jacinda and Muslim women on TV? Unlike you, they fully understood and appreciated her genuine compassion and the humanity she showed them. The fact that you still, for some unfathomable reason, cannot see that, says more about you than it does about Jacinda. She is the least cynical, the least dishonest, the least manipulative politician/PM we have seen in this country for years. The rest of the world is intelligent enough to see that - but not you. Jacinda, just like the rest of us, is not perfect. But she is not the woman you try to convince us she is. You could not be more wrong in your judgment of her. I would disagree with you about the least manipulative politician bit, she exercises a subtle control of the populous, she is basically a new age communist ie the old lie in a new package.

justakiwi
10-11-2020, 08:10 PM
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I 100% disagree.


I would disagree with you about the least manipulative politician bit, she exercises a subtle control of the populous, she is basically a new age communist ie the old lie in a new package.

iceman
11-11-2020, 01:42 PM
On the SANford thread you posted that “but obviously you will not get Kiwis on these boats when the likes of Sealords advertise for crew with an ability to speak Russian !!”
I noticed a few years ago an ad for workers in a Kiwifruit packhouse saying 12 hour shifts. A lot of women with children worked in packhouses but 12 hour shifts exclude them. So by having the power to set employment conditions employers can say we have no suitable NZ applicants and then get RSE workers who will work longer and harder than Kiwis, so it is more profitable for businesses to employ RSE staff. It does keep the cost of food down, but it also drives down wages and creates unemployment.

You are right that I wrote on the SAN thread that Sealords have advertised for "Russian language" crew on particular vessels. But they also have many NZ crewed vessels that they can not properly crew today. You and I have very different ideas on work and what conditions are acceptable and what is not and will obviously never agree on this issue. I maintain that young people should be forced into work rather than sit on benefits when they are fully able. In one of your post you show that 35% (40% in Nelson) claim to have some health condition or disability. Call me a sceptic but I do not believe such numbers but clearly shows that a significant proportion of so called "jobseekers" have no intention of going to work

artemis
11-11-2020, 02:02 PM
Some, maybe quite a few, on Jobseeker benefit with a health or disability issue will have addiction or mental health issues. Coupled with low skills and possibly low motivation these are not prime candidates. There is talk from time to time about rehab or therapy, but that is expensive and often not successful, so simpler and cheaper to let them stay on JS unless or until they can be moved onto the permanent Supported Living Payment or turn 65.

Iceman, the problem with forcing able people off the sofa and into work is that there needs to be employers willing to hire them. If they are high maintenance that's usually a no.

Bjauck
11-11-2020, 05:15 PM
I would disagree with you about the least manipulative politician bit, she exercises a subtle control of the populous, she is basically a new age communist ie the old lie in a new package.
Every government exercises “subtle control of the populace” and not so subtle control too. Previous National PMs have been every bit as “communist” according to your definition.

Of course without some control there would be chaos. Of course, there are some chaos and catastrophe capitalists who may relish that prospect.

moka
11-11-2020, 11:42 PM
You are right that I wrote on the SAN thread that Sealords have advertised for "Russian language" crew on particular vessels. But they also have many NZ crewed vessels that they can not properly crew today. You and I have very different ideas on work and what conditions are acceptable and what is not and will obviously never agree on this issue. I maintain that young people should be forced into work rather than sit on benefits when they are fully able. In one of your post you show that 35% (40% in Nelson) claim to have some health condition or disability. Call me a sceptic but I do not believe such numbers but clearly shows that a significant proportion of so called "jobseekers" have no intention of going to workCalling it Jobseeker is a misnomer for some people as Jobseeker now includes “sickness benefit”, where people have a medical certificate saying they can’t work. But calling it Jobseeker helps reinforce the perception that people on benefits are lazy and don’t want to work.

About 215,000 people with disabilities would like to have a job. Some but not all would be on Jobseeker.

Disabled Persons Assembly (DPA) New Zealand is tackling the disproportionate rate of unemployment for disabled people by launching Mahi Tika – Equity in Employment, an employment programme to be trialed in the Waikato region.
There are approximately 290,000 people aged 15-64 with access, support, or health needs in New Zealand who are not currently in work.

Only 22% of disabled people are employed compared to 70% of the general population, while 74% of those disabled people who are not currently in work would like to have a job if one was available, according to the Government’s recently released Employment Action Plan ‘Working Matters’.
http://www.dpa.org.nz/newshtml/media-release-disabled-persons-assembly-launches-employment-project-in-waikato
(http://www.dpa.org.nz/newshtml/media-release-disabled-persons-assembly-launches-employment-project-in-waikato)
At the end of the June 2020 190,456​ people were getting Jobseeker Support, up from 136,233​ at the end of June last year, figures released by the Ministry of Social Development show.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122095970/jobseeker-numbers-topped-201000-in-june-and-more-joblosses-expected
(https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122095970/jobseeker-numbers-topped-201000-in-june-and-more-joblosses-expected)
Disabled people are identified as those who have at least a lot of difficulty in one or more of six specified activities. These activities are: seeing (even with glasses), hearing (even with hearing aids), walking or climbing stairs, remembering or concentrating, self-care, and communicating.
https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/disabled-people-three-times-less-likely-to-be-in-work

moka
12-11-2020, 12:03 AM
Some, maybe quite a few, on Jobseeker benefit with a health or disability issue will have addiction or mental health issues. Coupled with low skills and possibly low motivation these are not prime candidates. There is talk from time to time about rehab or therapy, but that is expensive and often not successful, so simpler and cheaper to let them stay on JS unless or until they can be moved onto the permanent Supported Living Payment or turn 65.

Iceman, the problem with forcing able people off the sofa and into work is that there needs to be employers willing to hire them. If they are high maintenance that's usually a no.
People with mental conditions make up the largest proportion of people receiving the Jobseeker Support – Health Condition or Disability (JS-HCD) and Supported Living Payment (SLP) benefits

The proportion of people receiving benefits for health conditions or disabilities is high.
Unemployment is often detrimental to wellbeing. Recipients of health and disability benefits now make up the largest group of working-age benefit recipients.

The population on benefit for reasons of ill health or disability has changed. It has increased since the 1980s and proportionately more people now receive benefits for health conditions or disabilities because they have mental health conditions.

Current state: the welfare system and people with health ...

www.weag.govt.nz (http://www.weag.govt.nz) › HCD-and-welfare-system-010419

moka
12-11-2020, 12:10 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/acts-david-seymour-meets-angry-northland-courgette-grower-about-worker-shortage/WQTBKZQZGYCI4HEWX5WVDDEGRY/
Act's David Seymour meets angry Northland courgette grower about worker shortage.

Ardern said there wasn't a shortage. "We have the people. We just need to get them to the right place."
She said there were 6000 foreign workers still in New Zealand from last season. "We want to make sure we are redeploying them across the country." She said work was under way to do that.
There were also 14,000 people on a working holiday who had their visas extended, she said.

Heap pays minimum wage of $18.90 an hour plus 8 per cent holiday pay for those starting out in the job. In the past, he has paid workers with experience and skill $23 an hour plus holiday pay.
It means he needs workers who will work seven days a week, 14 hours a day, when the courgettes are growing.
"For seasonal work, you're either all in or you miss the boat. If you're all in, you're grossing $3000 a fortnight."
What's more, those harvesting the plant are operating at ground level. It's leg-aching, back-breaking work to which, Heap says, New Zealand workers are unsuited.
"It comes down to stamina. [Local workers] just don't have it. And you've got to pay attention to detail and have pride in your work. This is what RSE workers bring. They are committed.

artemis
12-11-2020, 08:52 AM
So what are solutions for people who want to work but cannot find an employer to employ them?

moka
12-11-2020, 02:15 PM
So what are solutions for people who want to work but cannot find an employer to employ them?
Work and Income offer help and courses, and can refer people to private training providers who run courses or work with people individually e.g. The Auckland Chamber of Commerce offer work readiness programmes. https://www.chamberemployment.co.nz/
(https://www.chamberemployment.co.nz/)
Workbridge and Choices NZ (IHC) offer help to disabled people to find work.

But for some people especially as they get older the reality is they stay on Jobseeker for years until they qualify for NZ Superannuation, which is a depressing prospect. Unemployment is often detrimental to wellbeing.

https://workandincome.govt.nz/work/training-and-work-experience/index.html
We offer programmes to help you get ready for work and can help with training and work experience.
What's available


Mana in Mahi (https://workandincome.govt.nz/products/a-z-benefits/mana-in-mahi.html) - work while gaining a qualification
Limited Services Volunteer (LSV) (https://workandincome.govt.nz/work/training-and-work-experience/limited-service-volunteer.html) - a motivational and training programme
Work Confidence programmes (https://workandincome.govt.nz/work/training-and-work-experience/work-confidence-programmes.html) - boost your confidence to find work
Motivational Training (https://workandincome.govt.nz/work/training-and-work-experience/motivational-training.html)
Training (https://workandincome.govt.nz/work/training-and-work-experience/training.html)
Up-skilling to work in a specific industry (https://workandincome.govt.nz/work/training-and-work-experience/skills-for-industry.html)
Voluntary work (https://workandincome.govt.nz/work/training-and-work-experience/voluntary-work.html)
Voluntary work - a pathway to paid employment (https://workandincome.govt.nz/work/training-and-work-experience/volunteering-a-pathway-to-paid-employment.html)
Work Experience (https://workandincome.govt.nz/work/training-and-work-experience/work-experience.html)
Studying while on a benefit (https://workandincome.govt.nz/work/training-and-work-experience/studying-while-on-a-benefit.html)

moka
12-11-2020, 02:19 PM
I would disagree with you about the least manipulative politician bit, she exercises a subtle control of the populous, she is basically a new age communist ie the old lie in a new package.I don’t know about calling her a new age communist, but whatever you call it most New Zealanders like her style of leadership and voted accordingly for her and for Labour. They liked the sense of community she created by saying we are all in this together and the team of five million. People really like the collective approach she offered to fight covid.

artemis
12-11-2020, 02:36 PM
Work and Income offer help and courses, and can refer people to private training providers who run courses or work with people individually e.g. The Auckland Chamber of Commerce offer work readiness programmes. ....

Still need employers to hire them.

macduffy
12-11-2020, 02:37 PM
J A is undoubtedly a leader for the times. Now, let's see some action to follow those "inspiring" words!

Balance
12-11-2020, 05:41 PM
J A is undoubtedly a leader for the times. Now, let's see some action to follow those "inspiring" words!

What happened to her eloquent promises in 2017 on housing?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/pm-jacinda-ardern-on-house-prices-it-just-cannot-keep-increasing-at-the-rate-that-is/CCIRZPUJIW3FXYPCTQK6A7JZNI/

Incapable of delivering anything because she is clearly all talk and no substance.

macduffy
12-11-2020, 07:45 PM
What happened to her eloquent promises in 2017 on housing?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/pm-jacinda-ardern-on-house-prices-it-just-cannot-keep-increasing-at-the-rate-that-is/CCIRZPUJIW3FXYPCTQK6A7JZNI/

Incapable of delivering anything because she is clearly all talk and no substance.

Yes, I know, Balance. But let's give her a fresh start now, without the leg-irons of NZ First and you-know-who.

Balance
14-11-2020, 11:42 AM
Yes, I know, Balance. But let's give her a fresh start now, without the leg-irons of NZ First and you-know-who.

Well, so far she has NO solution to the housing crisis but has no one to blame so let's see what is her fresh start.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/steven-joyce-its-housing-for-the-haves-and-no-relief-in-sight-for-the-have-nots/AHFCPMYPKMZQYFCOQEG3JOUWQQ/

Paywall

"It was fascinating watching the Prime Minister spinning her way through the latest news on house price inflation this week.

On the back of a 20 per cent annual increase in median house prices she indicated lots of concern. But she stopped short of identifying any culprits or any new solutions to what is now clearly an asset price bubble that bears little relationship with what is happening in the real economy.

It is interesting how far the current government's rhetoric has come since opposition days when housing was "in crisis" and people with "Chinese-sounding names" were preventing "normal" kiwis from buying houses."

"It is a big irony that government policies that often seek to boost the fortunes of the low paid end up helping to trap them in a hand to mouth existence, with no way to break the cycle and get on the home ownership ladder."

jonu
14-11-2020, 12:16 PM
Well, so far she has NO solution to the housing crisis but has no one to blame so let's see what is her fresh start.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/steven-joyce-its-housing-for-the-haves-and-no-relief-in-sight-for-the-have-nots/AHFCPMYPKMZQYFCOQEG3JOUWQQ/

Paywall

"It was fascinating watching the Prime Minister spinning her way through the latest news on house price inflation this week.

On the back of a 20 per cent annual increase in median house prices she indicated lots of concern. But she stopped short of identifying any culprits or any new solutions to what is now clearly an asset price bubble that bears little relationship with what is happening in the real economy.

It is interesting how far the current government's rhetoric has come since opposition days when housing was "in crisis" and people with "Chinese-sounding names" were preventing "normal" kiwis from buying houses."

"It is a big irony that government policies that often seek to boost the fortunes of the low paid end up helping to trap them in a hand to mouth existence, with no way to break the cycle and get on the home ownership ladder."

That last sentence should also be seen in the light of Labour holding the Maori seats for most of the last 90 years. Almost every measure shows that to have been a complete disaster for Maori people.

Trouble is, Ardern is nimble and cynical enough to jump ship before the **** really hits the fan. UN, Meghan Markle, Michelle Obama, here she comes! Oh she'll be so kind and empathetic having wasted 10s of billions of our money and consigned our grandchildren to impoverishment. But she did it with a smile and that's what really counts.

jonu
16-11-2020, 12:17 PM
Scathing criticism of Helen Clark by a Geneva based UN Watchdog. And we wonder where Cindy learnt her trade?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid-19-coronavirus-un-watchdog-demands-helen-clark-resign-over-china-bias/4BLPDFQTBKYYJMZM5RFLMXS3VY/

westerly
16-11-2020, 07:41 PM
Scathing criticism of Helen Clark by a Geneva based UN Watchdog. And we wonder where Cindy learnt her trade?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid-19-coronavirus-un-watchdog-demands-helen-clark-resign-over-china-bias/4BLPDFQTBKYYJMZM5RFLMXS3VY/

UN Watch appears to be some sort of US based Jewish lobby group. Probably anti UN at every opportunity.

westerly

jonu
16-11-2020, 10:33 PM
The Cynical One in full flight here.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/123410402/alleged-victim-bewildered-as-extradition-of-korean-diplomat-charged-with-sexual-assault-appears-unlikely

Note how she waffles and bulls***s her way around the issue. I wonder how Cynical Cindy would be treating this if it was a female victim. Keep being kind Cindy. You're such a guiding light of moral principles for the world to see. Go Cindy! Let's not do this! Let's keep moving. Next stop Ihumatao!

Blue Skies
17-11-2020, 01:09 PM
Housing affordability is going to crash this governments support if they're not careful.

Don't they ever learn.
For them to be looking at giving more money to first home buyers $5,000 or $10,000 Home start grant, is just going to push prices up by the same amount just like when they increased student accommodation allowances & landlords said thanks, we'll take that!

It's reached crisis point, forget the separation of politics & Reserve Bank policy conventions. Govern.
National's Andrew Bayly has sound arguments, require the $28B being pumped into the economy by the Reserve Bank to be ring fenced for productive parts of the economy such as building new houses & local businesses.

There are cases being quoted on ST of people being turned down by their bank for a loan to invest in shares like OCA when it was recently at 68c (now 136) , but almost encouraged to borrow money to buy another investment property.

Balance
17-11-2020, 06:26 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300160288/jacinda-ardern-wont-stage-reserve-bank-intervention-as-government-loses-grip-on-house-prices

Cindy & her team of incompetents have no freaking idea what to do with the rampaging house prices - not a clue.

Those of us with properties sit back and see our wealth multiple effortlessly -$100k, $500k - easy!

Those who are trying to get into the property ladder cannot save fast enough to bridge the wealth multiplication quantum of rising house prices.

Enjoy the benefits and pains of a Clueless Cindy all talk and no substance government - don't say you weren't told it would happen.

jonu
18-11-2020, 10:51 AM
It takes a bit to pull the wool over the eyes of Barry Soper....the old dog has seen it all before.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/opinion/barry-soper-chris-hipkins-taiwan-comments-the-politics-of-ignorance/

Note the comments about Mahuta as well. We're in for a rough ride on the diplomacy front with these naive fools in the saddle.

Balance
18-11-2020, 11:08 AM
It takes a bit to pull the wool over the eyes of Barry Soper....the old dog has seen it all before.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/opinion/barry-soper-chris-hipkins-taiwan-comments-the-politics-of-ignorance/

Note the comments about Mahuta as well. We're in for a rough ride on the diplomacy front with these naive fools in the saddle.

What a bunny Chris Hipkins is turning out to be.

Balance
22-11-2020, 09:45 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/123456016/ardern-should-cash-in-some-political-capital-to-intervene-in-housing-market

Rampaging house prices and Cindy is like a possum caught in the middle of the road with the headlights.

But guess what?

In Opposition, she was so concerned :

Excerpt : "see Jacinda Ardern’s 2015 tweet: “John Key just told the gallery he doesn't think Auckland houses are over valued. THEY'RE EARNING MORE THAN PEOPLE!!! For the love of...”

Not a clue - all spin and no delivery.

Enjoying the massive increase in my property values, I am - pity about the mugs who voted for Cindy who thought she would deliver affordable housing for them. :t_up:

Bjauck
22-11-2020, 11:31 AM
...
Enjoying the massive increase in my property values, I am - pity about the mugs who voted for Cindy who thought she would deliver affordable housing for them. :t_up:
The lure of the treasury benches meant her concern was jettisoned!

In the year to October 2020 the median house in Auckland rose in value by $140K….This gain when realised will remain untaxed in the hand of the owner-occupier. The biggest financial gain for the median house Auckland home owner* is coming from their house and not from their taxable income. Yet it is personal income which ironically Ardern wants to tax even more. Go figure!

On the shelf behind her office chair, Ardern should swap the photo of PM Savage for PM Key.

*...if they have been able to buy the house they live in, that is.

dobby41
23-11-2020, 08:47 AM
The lure of the treasury benches meant her concern was jettisoned!

In the year to October 2020 the median house in Auckland rose in value by $140K….This gain when realised will remain untaxed in the hand of the owner-occupier. The biggest financial gain for the median house Auckland home owner* is coming from their house and not from their taxable income. Yet it is personal income which ironically Ardern wants to tax even more. Go figure!

On the shelf behind her office chair, Ardern should swap the photo of PM Savage for PM Key.

*...if they have been able to buy the house they live in, that is.

For a owner-occupier the gain is largely irrelevant when the realise the gain (sell) as they will probably buy another house at a similarly inflated price.
If you have more than one property then you are onto a winner.