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View Full Version : Chloe Swarbrick - I like her style



Aaron
31-03-2021, 09:13 AM
Just reading her opinion pieces in the herald, they come across well to me. I have a terrible left leaning bias though. I also sometimes read Mike Hoskings opinion pieces they usually make me laugh.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/chloe-swarbrick-hard-work-is-no-longer-enough-to-get-you-a-home/EONUBD6GQJRZ65VEUMTGB4S4ZI/

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chloe-swarbrick-on-house-prices-tackling-inequality-in-new-zealand-requires-political-guts/HSM4H4VOB7BJSEOII6G7PTFBLY/

It is a shame she is with the Greens as the likes of Marama Davidson & Julie Ann Genter just seem to piss me off every time they open their mouths. Labour is too far right for her idealism, ,maybe she can make the greens less loopy over time.

iceman
03-04-2021, 08:59 PM
I think you are rigtht that Chloe is very different to the 2 others you mention. I like Chloe´s style but don´t agree with much she says. If she is the future of the Green´s she will take them even further away from the roots planted by Rod & Jeanette all those years ago, 2 people that were real and genuine environmentalists and were guided in their politics by what was best for the environment. Sadly today´s Green Party is not a true environmental party but a far left political party and many of their MPs are misguided social warriors.
Tens of thousands of voters would want to vote for real thoughtful and realistic environmental policies but are not getting that option from the current lots in Parliament.

jonu
13-04-2021, 06:34 PM
Just in case you thought the Greens were heading for the mainstream.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/hints-of-new-leadership-model-for-greens/ar-BB1fzSbK?ocid=msedgntp

Apparently sexism is OK as long as it delivers power to the girls according to Genter. She missed out under their current model, so now reckons it's limiting female representation.

How about the blokes who are under represented in the Greens? Where is the angst? Where is the outrage?

Just goes to show "diversity" is about a power grab....nothing more.

tim23
13-04-2021, 08:46 PM
Just in case you thought the Greens were heading for the mainstream.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/hints-of-new-leadership-model-for-greens/ar-BB1fzSbK?ocid=msedgntp

Apparently sexism is OK as long as it delivers power to the girls according to Genter. She missed out under their current model, so now reckons it's limiting female representation.

How about the blokes who are under represented in the Greens? Where is the angst? Where is the outrage?

Just goes to show "diversity" is about a power grab....nothing more.

I heard the interview on HDA tonight I agree what silly nonsense.

jonu
14-04-2021, 09:35 AM
I heard the interview on HDA tonight I agree what silly nonsense.

Well well, did I just see a pig fly past? Nice to see we can agree on something tim23.

moka
23-11-2021, 03:40 PM
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/farmers-should-be-angry-green-mp-chl-e-swarbrick-treads-into-groundswell-dissension.html
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/farmers-should-be-angry-green-mp-chl-e-swarbrick-treads-into-groundswell-dissension.html)
In the wake of Groundwell's 'Mother of all Protests' against "unworkable" rural regulations, Green MP Chlöe Swarbrick agrees that farmers "should be angry" - but not at the Government.

Swarbrick said she sat through "thousands" of public submissions on the Zero Carbon Act and other climate legislation, and asked dozens of farmers and their representatives about their vision for agriculture.

"None had an answer on the spot. Hadn't thought about it; [they] were focused on next week, next month, next year. Some were angry, afraid and upset and spoke of the struggle to survive. Some were in a whole lot of debt, perversely locking them into unsustainable practice," she wrote.

"I asked others whether climate change had impacted their work, seasonal predictability, wastage, etc. Most said yes. They knew things were changing around them.

"I think that's why it's just so gutting not to see mainstream [agriculture] leadership on the challenges ahead, reimagining the future and doing the work to get there. Townies, [especially] townie politicians, can't offer authentic leadership in spaces that aren't theirs.

whatsup
30-11-2021, 01:24 PM
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/farmers-should-be-angry-green-mp-chl-e-swarbrick-treads-into-groundswell-dissension.html
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/farmers-should-be-angry-green-mp-chl-e-swarbrick-treads-into-groundswell-dissension.html)
In the wake of Groundwell's 'Mother of all Protests' against "unworkable" rural regulations, Green MP Chlöe Swarbrick agrees that farmers "should be angry" - but not at the Government.

Swarbrick said she sat through "thousands" of public submissions on the Zero Carbon Act and other climate legislation, and asked dozens of farmers and their representatives about their vision for agriculture.

"None had an answer on the spot. Hadn't thought about it; [they] were focused on next week, next month, next year. Some were angry, afraid and upset and spoke of the struggle to survive. Some were in a whole lot of debt, perversely locking them into unsustainable practice," she wrote.

"I asked others whether climate change had impacted their work, seasonal predictability, wastage, etc. Most said yes. They knew things were changing around them.

"I think that's why it's just so gutting not to see mainstream [agriculture] leadership on the challenges ahead, reimagining the future and doing the work to get there. Townies, [especially] townie politicians, can't offer authentic leadership in spaces that aren't theirs.

Its alright ( in her eye ) to have a theoritical view of the world for some one who does not actually work for a living, "do as I say not as I do " !!

moka
10-02-2022, 09:27 PM
Redistribution can go up to the rich as well down to the poor.

Chloe Swarbrick on whether we let the growing wealth and housing divide go on, or push for change.

Poverty and inadequate housing is not a natural phenomenon, in the same way that wealth and "housing" per se isn't. As author Ursula K. Le Guin put it, "We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings."

The wealthiest in this country are an estimated $1 trillion richer as a result of the political decisions these past two years, at the expense of workers and renters earning less in real terms and paying more to survive.

We have a choice on whether we arrest inequality or let it fester.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/chloe-swarbrick-we-can-let-growing-wealth-and-housing-divide-go-on-or-push-for-change/UCAX4RSN7F65YGJCGRLDBJZ4BQ/


(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/chloe-swarbrick-we-can-let-growing-wealth-and-housing-divide-go-on-or-push-for-change/UCAX4RSN7F65YGJCGRLDBJZ4BQ/)

Logen Ninefingers
10-02-2022, 10:38 PM
Redistribution can go up to the rich as well down to the poor.

Chloe Swarbrick on whether we let the growing wealth and housing divide go on, or push for change.

Poverty and inadequate housing is not a natural phenomenon, in the same way that wealth and "housing" per se isn't. As author Ursula K. Le Guin put it, "We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings."

The wealthiest in this country are an estimated $1 trillion richer as a result of the political decisions these past two years, at the expense of workers and renters earning less in real terms and paying more to survive.

We have a choice on whether we arrest inequality or let it fester.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/chloe-swarbrick-we-can-let-growing-wealth-and-housing-divide-go-on-or-push-for-change/UCAX4RSN7F65YGJCGRLDBJZ4BQ/


(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/chloe-swarbrick-we-can-let-growing-wealth-and-housing-divide-go-on-or-push-for-change/UCAX4RSN7F65YGJCGRLDBJZ4BQ/)

It’s being called ‘capitalism’ and yet it is the intervention of central banks and governments in markets that have caused this entire problem. Different arms of the state have deliberately inflated asset bubbles and continue to intervene to prop them up.

Aaron
11-02-2022, 12:16 AM
It’s being called ‘capitalism’ and yet it is the intervention of central banks and governments in markets that have caused this entire problem. Different arms of the state have deliberately inflated asset bubbles and continue to intervene to prop them up.

Agreed, if Chloe can identify the people and policies behind the rising wealth inequality they can address the issue, but I doubt the rest of the greens have enough brains to get past their ideology and work it out. Central planners at the central banks are largely responsible. See how the RBNZ turned around a predicted 10% fall in house prices prior to covid into a much more than 30% rise over the last two years. Drop the OCR to .25% and print up $70bill to assist bank lending. Easy as. Easy to reverse as well but it wont happen. No political will to do it.

Logen Ninefingers
11-02-2022, 06:59 AM
Agreed, if Chloe can identify the people and policies behind the rising wealth inequality they can address the issue, but I doubt the rest of the greens have enough brains to get past their ideology and work it out. Central planners at the central banks are largely responsible. See how the RBNZ turned around a predicted 10% fall in house prices prior to covid into a much more than 30% rise over the last two years. Drop the OCR to .25% and print up $70bill to assist bank lending. Easy as. Easy to reverse as well but it wont happen. No political will to do it.

A 10% fall would have done a huge amount of good- would have taken the heat out of the market and shown that there is always risk in a true functioning market. Damn the Reserve Bank for inflating a super-bubble.

moka
11-02-2022, 10:03 PM
It’s being called ‘capitalism’ and yet it is the intervention of central banks and governments in markets that have caused this entire problem. Different arms of the state have deliberately inflated asset bubbles and continue to intervene to prop them up.It is about capital, not capitalism. Capital is an asset, and capitalism is the process of using it productively.

Central banks are creating capital which is rationalized by saying it will be used for capitalism. But most is being used for speculation and financialization. Capital is about wealth creation, whereas capitalism is using capital to purchase raw materials and plant to make a new product.

Less and less of the economy is about capitalism, and more and more is about speculation and financialization. The free market economy has not created “free markets.” The small business cannot compete and more and more power is concentrated in a few very large businesses.

Logen Ninefingers
12-02-2022, 05:59 PM
It is about capital, not capitalism. Capital is an asset, and capitalism is the process of using it productively.

Central banks are creating capital which is rationalized by saying it will be used for capitalism. But most is being used for speculation and financialization. Capital is about wealth creation, whereas capitalism is using capital to purchase raw materials and plant to make a new product.

Less and less of the economy is about capitalism, and more and more is about speculation and financialization. The free market economy has not created “free markets.” The small business cannot compete and more and more power is concentrated in a few very large businesses.

Central Banks doing large scale QE and interest rate suppression is not a free market economy by any definition I would use, though I agree with your other points.

denpal
13-02-2022, 12:44 PM
The Greens support human experimental gene therapy at the same time as they are against GMO food. This is a special kind of stupid.

Aaron
02-03-2022, 08:18 AM
Interesting opinion piece from Chloe in this mornings herald if there is a female socialist politician that Balance should be scared of Chloe sounds more like the type of person to run counter to his ideology. Although she is not in power so I guess Jacinda gets all his hatred. I wonder if it is because she is female? Are there any posts from Balance back when Helen Clark was PM, we could analyse these and see if there is a pattern to his behaviour.

I still like Chloe's rhetoric, pity she is weighed down by the green party.

davflaws
02-03-2022, 04:10 PM
The Greens support human experimental gene therapy at the same time as they are against GMO food. This is a special kind of stupid.

What human experimental gene therapy do you think the Greens support?

moka
23-03-2022, 07:49 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chloe-swarbrick-same-politics-that-axed-public-transport-dream-is-keeping-us-in-cars/462KUUAF4I42WRZ25VYCKUWURY/

(https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chloe-swarbrick-same-politics-that-axed-public-transport-dream-is-keeping-us-in-cars/462KUUAF4I42WRZ25VYCKUWURY/) Chlöe Swarbrick: Same politics that axed public transport dream is keeping us in cars.

The perceived requirement for a car to get around our city and our country wasn't an inevitability. It was a conscious political choice.
Those same conscious political choices are being made today.

Yet I find when we talk about public transport these days, certain people, for some reason, feel under personal attack. It's similar to how when we talk about International Women's Day, some people ask when it's International Men's Day (19th November). Or how when we talk about renters, it's conflated with an attack on landlords. Or how when we talk about increasing density in our cities, some behave like we're sending bulldozers to their colonial villas.

UK Car Insurance service Confused.com recently crunched figures and found that of all countries across the world, Aotearoa New Zealand has the highest proportion of cars per capita: 0.7 cars for each person in the country. Our cars are also the fourth oldest (and therefore least efficient), just behind the Czech Republic, Romania and Argentina.

The Massachusetts city of Boston recently trialled a free-fare route. They reported a 38 per cent increase in ridership, increased speed in boarding and minimal impact on services.

Balance
28-03-2022, 08:13 AM
Talk to the retailers and business owners whose businesses & livelihoods have been devastated by the Inner City Light Rail project (especially along Albert St) and ask them how much help they have had from Chloe.

Compare and contrast with how quickly the government threw $1.3m immediately to alleviate the impact of the Wellington protests on affected business.

That’s a great measure of how effective (or otherwise) Chloe has been as a MP for Auckland Centre.

Panda-NZ-
28-03-2022, 09:54 AM
Talk to the retailers and business owners whose businesses & livelihoods have been devastated by the Inner City Light Rail project (especially along Albert St) and ask them how much help they have had from Chloe.

What about the ones who are raising prices while pocketing a wage subsidy. Many are doing great currently.

Entrep
28-03-2022, 10:39 AM
What about the ones who are raising prices while pocketing a wage subsidy. Many are doing great currently.

Take a walk in the Auckland CBD then post that.

Balance
28-03-2022, 06:58 PM
Take a walk in the Auckland CBD then post that.

Let the Cindy devotees post whatever they want - evidence of just how removed & remote they and the Labour Party are from mainstream NZers - with their arrogant incompetence of how they think they know everything and they know best.

The polls are of course shaking some of them to the core however but fortunately, not deeply enough yet with Cindy & her team of nincompoop ministers. They continue to behave arrogantly.

Let's hope they continue like that into 2023.

Bring on 2023!

Aaron
25-07-2022, 04:30 PM
James Shaw not nutty enough for green party nutbags.

https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/116875/greens-loathing-majorities-attributable-their-unshakeable-conviction-their

Mind you I think he should have been booted out of parliament after it was discovered he held up a bunch of infrastructure projects, to extort $12mill of taxpayer money for a private "green" school that taught people to plant crystals.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/424732/james-shaw-apologises-for-signing-off-on-funding-for-green-private-school

We should have a zero tolerance for corruption by our politicians. Giving our money to the school was bad enough but he also held up worthwhile projects to extort the funds.

and to keep to the thread. Chloe saying all the right things (IMO) while declining the offer to stand for the vacant leadership position.

As we continue to navigate a global pandemic, our planet is burning. The top 10% sit on 70% of this country’s wealth while 2.5million New Zealanders are being told to fight over 2% of the scraps. None of this is the natural order of things. It’s our “economy” turned into a game of Monopoly. The rules were made that way by vested interests and they can be remade. Our Green movement was built to transform the systems which gave us these problems and I will continue to put everything I have into that.

Mind you as soon as she says I need to go vegan and catch the bus to save the planet my support for her may wane. If she points out that trickle down economics is a load of bull*hit and moves to change this, she will have my vote.

Maybe a comprehensive capital gains tax including owner occupied housing, reduce the inflation target to 0% and sack Adrian Orr for not doing his job at 1-3%

iceman
21-10-2022, 12:02 PM
Well done Chloe to come up with straight forward and easy to implement suggestions to the new Mayor. This is effective politics. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-mayor-wayne-brown-and-chloe-swarbrick-agree-to-immediate-fixes-to-make-central-city-safer/IKK6AHIGURVIGR6YFLCFWLZPEE/

Panda-NZ-
22-10-2022, 09:07 AM
There's only so many people you can fit into smaller spaces before air pollution becomes a significant issue, esp when you add even more cars and trucks to the mix.

Is Auckland going to have a future where the residents have to wear masks while in their tiny apartments and what will Wayne do to protect our way of life on this issue.

whatsup
26-10-2022, 08:30 AM
There's only so many people you can fit into smaller spaces before air pollution becomes a significant issue, esp when you add even more cars and trucks to the mix.

Is Auckland going to have a future where the residents have to wear masks while in their tiny apartments and what will Wayne do to protect our way of life on this issue.

Get them to buy bigger apartments, he didnt make the problem, the previous drop kick mayors did !

Aaron
06-04-2023, 01:18 PM
Poor Chloe tied to the drop kick party.

She is in parliament trying to get a practical bill through, I think to reduce alcohol advertising. Personally do not care I could support prohibition or legalising everything and let people make their own decisions and take responsibility for their actions and live with the consequences.

Anyway this article got my attention. A member of her own party calling her a cry baby then denying it despite proof she is blatantly lying. And what bill did this lady want to present to parliament.(Prohibition of Discrimination on Grounds of Gender Identity or Expression, and Variations of Sex Characteristics) bill -

I am sure if there is legislation enacted any discrimination will immediately end.

Jesus Chloe do you really want to be part of the woke warriors party. Dumb people championing dumb issues.

Balance
06-04-2023, 01:34 PM
Poor Chloe tied to the drop kick party.

She is in parliament trying to get a practical bill through, I think to reduce alcohol advertising. Personally do not care I could support prohibition or legalising everything and let people make their own decisions and take responsibility for their actions and live with the consequences.

Anyway this article got my attention. A member of her own party calling her a cry baby then denying it despite proof she is blatantly lying. And what bill did this lady want to present to parliament.(Prohibition of Discrimination on Grounds of Gender Identity or Expression, and Variations of Sex Characteristics) bill -

I am sure if there is legislation enacted any discrimination will immediately end.

Jesus Chloe do you really want to be part of the woke warriors party. Dumb people championing dumb issues.

Confirming once for all time what a bunch of snow flakes the Greens are.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/green-mp-elizabeth-kerekere-calls-chloe-swarbrick-a-crybaby-in-group-chat/OXDORVIGFVEQHKQD4H23ZAG7W4/

Aaron
10-04-2023, 02:05 PM
Confirming once for all time what a bunch of snow flakes the Greens are.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/green-mp-elizabeth-kerekere-calls-chloe-swarbrick-a-crybaby-in-group-chat/OXDORVIGFVEQHKQD4H23ZAG7W4/

Sounds like Chris Trotter agrees.

https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/120697/chris-trotter-watching-growing-struggle-within-green-party-where-radical

Other than the name of the party it is hard to find a reason to vote for them. I guess they will appeal to young people, I imagine they would support getting the voting age down to 16.

Getty
10-04-2023, 03:32 PM
Sounds like Chris Trotter agrees.

https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/120697/chris-trotter-watching-growing-struggle-within-green-party-where-radical

Other than the name of the party it is hard to find a reason to vote for them. I guess they will appeal to young people, I imagine they would support getting the voting age down to 16.

Yeah, well the Greens themselves have a mental age of 5.

nztx
11-04-2023, 12:19 AM
Yeah, well the Greens themselves have a mental age of 5.


In 1963, somebody dug up evidence that man was in the Hawkes Bay area 4500 years ago, and instantaneously ...

A distant couson of someone here ? ;)

likely smarter and long before Greens were invented :)

Getty
18-04-2023, 07:27 AM
Reading today's story in the NZ Herald gives one the distinct impression that Chloe and Elizabeth KereKere are not very gay.

Balance
18-04-2023, 08:12 AM
Reading today's story in the NZ Herald gives one the distinct impression that Chloe and Elizabeth KereKere are not very gay.

Toxic culture emerging in Greens.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/488141/green-party-sources-accuse-mp-elizabeth-kerekere-of-bullying

777
18-04-2023, 12:03 PM
And they promoted her up the list only recently.

iceman
18-04-2023, 12:06 PM
And they promoted her up the list only recently.

Yet to be confirmed though as it was only a draft list. This hostility now is a fight for the list places. A rotten culture in a rotten party.

Balance
30-04-2023, 09:37 AM
Yet to be confirmed though as it was only a draft list. This hostility now is a fight for the list places. A rotten culture in a rotten party.

Like the Greens in Canada, the party is destroying itself in its lust for power. Apparently lust for power is stronger than lust for sex when it comes to the ex-eunuchs in the Greens.

nztx
03-05-2023, 12:45 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/131923147/senior-green-members-to-quit-over-dragged-out-elizabeth-kerekere-bullying-investigation

Senior Green members to quit over 'dragged out' Elizabeth Kerekere bullying investigation


Green Meltdown in progress

Anyone can imagine that the Co-Leaders will be split over this too ;)

Sayonara later this year & new day jobs for all ? ;)


One boisterous parrot among the branches and it all turns to curry :)


Good riddance ..

nztx
05-05-2023, 10:59 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/elizabeth-kerekere-breaks-silence/5PZ2JDCA5ZB4RK7ACICLU3EHKI/

Elizabeth Kerekere resigns from Greens



Elizabeth Kerekere quit the Green Party shortly after 8pm this evening.

Greens co-leaders James Shaw and Marama Davidson said in a statement Kerekere intended to sit as an independent MP until the general election, when she will retire.


Ooops .. Boisterous Parrot jumps overboard :)

No life rafts or rescue Waka needed .. Crybaby safe again :)

ynot
06-05-2023, 06:28 AM
What have we done to deserve this.

westerly
06-05-2023, 08:35 AM
What have we done to deserve this.

NZTX ? God only knows.

westerly

Balance
06-05-2023, 09:01 AM
What have we done to deserve this.

The indoctrinated sheep voting in Clueless Cindy & her Maori cabal.

Enjoy the Chaos which is now NZ!

Very very happy!

justakiwi
06-05-2023, 09:23 AM
Come on Balance. At least lay blame for this one where it lies - with the Greens.


The indoctrinated sheep voting in Clueless Cindy & her Maori cabal.

Enjoy the Chaos which is now NZ!

Very very happy!

Logen Ninefingers
06-05-2023, 09:42 AM
Meka was a known bully and has taken flight to Te Pati Maori. Could Elizabeth Kerekere also join the fired-up Te Pati Maori ranks?

ynot
06-05-2023, 09:49 AM
Come on Balance. At least lay blame for this one where it lies - with the Greens.
Labour chose to get into bed with them. Lay down with dogs, you get fleas.

SBQ
07-05-2023, 09:55 PM
Chloe Swarbrick has a pretty face. You know what that means? It's been mentioned of Jacinda Ardern's pretty face. This is a problem because I notice the clueless and naive still vote on looks, rather than substance.

Logen Ninefingers
10-05-2023, 08:54 AM
As predicted, Te Pati Maori are looking to entice Elizabeth Kerekere into their ranks.

nztx
10-05-2023, 06:00 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/gloomy-chris-and-negative-nicola-minister-pitches-political-back-to-the-future-4-in-house-debate/2GYR75SE75HUVBZVFTXRV32UWE/

Poor James left on his lonesome again


Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson - was ejected by Speaker of the House Adrian Rurawhe today


someone still suffering from loose screws syndrome, after falling over into path of unfortunate motorcyclist ? ;)

nztx
16-05-2023, 04:31 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/newtown-wellington-fire-tragedy-mps-speak-after-lives-lost-ask-questions-about-building-code-lack-of-sprinkler-systems/IC4EKCRATFBB7N53F42FSTQ3YE/


Oh look - James throw an angry face & spit .. :)

Quick Marama - throw a cushion over him and sit down on it hard - to save him hurting himself ;)



A “very, very angry” James Shaw has blasted the state of the country’s housing and building code following this morning’s deadly hostel fire in Newtown, asking how it could allow the most vulnerable residents to “live in substandard accommodation with a reasonable chance of lethality”.


James - were your green leprechaun "Fire Alert Squad" all away asleep off the job when this happen ? :)

SBQ
18-05-2023, 09:55 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/newtown-wellington-fire-tragedy-mps-speak-after-lives-lost-ask-questions-about-building-code-lack-of-sprinkler-systems/IC4EKCRATFBB7N53F42FSTQ3YE/


Oh look - James throw an angry face & spit .. :)

Quick Marama - throw a cushion over him and sit down on it hard - to save him hurting himself ;)





James - were your green leprechaun "Fire Alert Squad" all away asleep off the job when this happen ? :)

Agree - but i'm not surprised of the stupidity of his remarks because what else would you expect coming from The Green Party? "I'm SO disgusted because this building didn't have a sprinkler system" ??? "Maybe if my strong acting response to 'show that I care' is good enough to convince voters that a James Shaw tick is a well deserved vote."

Facts of life, accidents happen. How far does the Green Party want to push regulations so that nothing get done and record numbers of occupants give up owning a home as the gov't will provide all the social housing needs for everyone?

Logen Ninefingers
18-05-2023, 10:58 AM
If New Zealand is “one of the richest nation’s in the world” as James Shaw alleges then why is the whole country on some sort of welfare? From ‘winter energy’ payments to elderly millionaires, ‘cost of living’ payments, WFF pumped in the accounts of those that decided to have multiple kids, accomodation supplements for those who can’t pay their rent or mortgage….the list goes on and on. We are “one of the richest nation’s in the world” but we are borrowing $1 billion per week….make it make sense!!

Could Shaw also tell us what the source of this great wealth is, because as far as I know we export some milk, cheese, logs, kiwifruit, meat - and that’s about it. We don’t have the vast mineral resources of our neighbour Australia. Where does Shaw think this vast wealth is being generated? Or does he believe that someone who borrows a million dollars is “rich’(?)

davflaws
18-05-2023, 12:45 PM
How far does the Green Party want to push regulations so that nothing get done and record numbers of occupants give up owning a home as the gov't will provide all the social housing needs for everyone?

Do you really think that the amount and quality of social housing is a significant factor determining the numbers of people planning to own a home?

Would it really be a very bad thing if we continued to increase the amount of social housing available untill everyone who wanted a place to live had one?

Would it really be a very bad thing if the place was warm, dry and safe?

thegreatestben
18-05-2023, 12:57 PM
davflaws - I think you are overlooking the govt's inability to comply with it's own requirements as a landlord with the current volumes of social housing, amongst other things.

davflaws
18-05-2023, 01:22 PM
If New Zealand is “one of the richest nation’s in the world” as James Shaw alleges then why is the whole country on some sort of welfare? From ‘winter energy’ payments to elderly millionaires, ‘cost of living’ payments, WFF pumped in the accounts of those that decided to have multiple kids, accomodation supplements for those who can’t pay their rent or mortgage….the list goes on and on. We are “one of the richest nation’s in the world” but we are borrowing $1 billion per week….make it make sense!!

Makes perfect sense to me. A pork chop, a lawnmower, i-phone, or wall insulation all represent the same amount of resources whether they are govt handouts, subsidised, or paid for in gold earned by the honest sweat of John Gaunt's brow. If you tot up the amount of pork chops etc, we have more per head of popullation than most places in the world.

Economies go in cycles. Governments borrow money to smooth those cycles. If they don't, bad things (like depressions) happen. This country has a healthy credit rating, resulting from our good debt/GDP ratio, our political stability, and probably other stuff I can't think of right now. We are able to borrow on good terms as a result, and are managing our way through some very difficult worldwide problems.



Could Shaw also tell us what the source of this great wealth is, because as far as I know we export some milk, cheese, logs, kiwifruit, meat - and that’s about it. We don’t have the vast mineral resources of our neighbour Australia. Where does Shaw think this vast wealth is being generated? Or does he believe that someone who borrows a million dollars is “rich’(?)

It's got nothing to do with borrowing except insofar as our ability to borrow has allowed usto keep the economy moving and growing. You have it right in terms of our exports, which largely come down to climate but it isn't the whole story. we also have a free and peaceful society with a good education system, an amazing climate and scenery. Tourism and education have been important earners. Because we are a nice safe place to live, we also compete well for skilled migrants, whos skills and education are imported free. Our well educated population aren't as productive as they should be, but that would be easily fixed by more investment in tech.

We would be a bloody sight richer but for the twin disasters of Rogernomics and Ruthenasia,

davflaws
18-05-2023, 01:24 PM
davflaws - I think you are overlooking the govt's inability to comply with it's own requirements as a landlord with the current volumes of social housing, amongst other things.
Maybe - but you would need to explain further before I could comment.

Logen Ninefingers
18-05-2023, 01:28 PM
Makes perfect sense to me. A pork chop, a lawnmower, i-phone, or wall insulation all represent the same amount of resources whether they are govt handouts, subsidised, or paid for in gold earned by the honest sweat of John Gaunt's brow. If you tot up the amount of pork chops etc, we have more per head of popullation than most places in the world.

Economies go in cycles. Governments borrow money to smooth those cycles. If they don't, bad things (like depressions) happen. This country has a healthy credit rating, resulting from our good debt/GDP ratio, our political stability, and probably other stuff I can't think of right now. We are able to borrow on good terms as a result, and are managing our way through some very difficult worldwide problems.




It's got nothing to do with borrowing except insofar as our ability to borrow has allowed usto keep the economy moving and growing. You have it right in terms of our exports, which largely come down to climate but it isn't the whole story. we also have a free and peaceful society with a good education system, an amazing climate and scenery. Tourism and education have been important earners. Because we are a nice safe place to live, we also compete well for skilled migrants, whos skills and education are imported free. Our well educated population aren't as productive as they should be, but that would be easily fixed by more investment in tech.

We would be a bloody sight richer but for the twin disasters of Rogernomics and Ruthenasia,

Your handle is most apt, the flaws in your arguments are obvious. The people who constantly trumpet our purported ‘low debt’ are the same people who bleated non-stop for 9 years about ‘ballooning debt’ under National. The hypocrisy and cynicism is breath-taking.

thegreatestben
18-05-2023, 01:35 PM
Maybe - but you would need to explain further before I could comment.

I don't think they'll even come close to meeting their obligations by 2024 (again) - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/healthy-homes-kainga-ora-and-private-landlords-given-12-month-extension-to-meet-standards/RAYWRGDYLBANJAAPFTFU3HR4UQ/

I live in an area with a huge amount of new state housing going in, some of them are already looking like slums. Living in a crappy house and putting that person into a nice new one doesn't lead to change in a lot of cases. Yep they're in a nicer house, but do they treat it any differently? no.

I'd rather see the list reduce in size due to less people requiring the service rather than by increasing the supply of state homes.

Logen Ninefingers
18-05-2023, 03:02 PM
Marama Davidson now telling the nation that “New Zealand is a wealthy country”.
I’d agree if you consider artificially inflated and unsustainable asset prices + massive debt to be ‘wealth’.

Getty
18-05-2023, 06:23 PM
I don't think they'll even come close to meeting their obligations by 2024 (again) - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/healthy-homes-kainga-ora-and-private-landlords-given-12-month-extension-to-meet-standards/RAYWRGDYLBANJAAPFTFU3HR4UQ/

I live in an area with a huge amount of new state housing going in, some of them are already looking like slums. Living in a crappy house and putting that person into a nice new one doesn't lead to change in a lot of cases. Yep they're in a nicer house, but do they treat it any differently? no.

I'd rather see the list reduce in size due to less people requiring the service rather than by increasing the supply of state homes.

In Hastings, Kauri St got a Kaianga Ora rebuild at great cost to the taxpayers, all nice and flash, and now 12 months later, more Police visits than ever, and some of those transferred in, want to escape.

What will the do gooders and bleeding hearts find to blame for the social misfits, if they can't blame the housing.

You can move the people out of the houses, but you can't take the ****house out of the people!

winner69
29-05-2023, 03:20 PM
I see Chloe’s partner is now Wellington’s Mayor’s newly appointed Chief of Staff

Hmmm

nztx
29-05-2023, 10:00 PM
I see Chloe’s partner is now Wellington’s Mayor’s newly appointed Chief of Staff

Hmmm


When is Chloe being lined up for a spot on Wellington Council payroll .. away from all the noisy destructive beehive parrots ? ;)

nztx
09-06-2023, 04:35 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/132278382/is-the-governments-he-waka-eke-noa-agricultural-emissions-legislation-on-its-last-legs

Is the Government's He Waka Eke Noa agricultural emissions legislation on its last legs?



Climate Change Minister James Shaw says farmers need certainty when it comes to agricultural emissions pricing, but he hasn’t provided any when asked whether the Government’s He Waka Eke Noa scheme would be passed in Parliament in its current form before the election.


Certainty comes in October with a change in Political Climate - James ;)

The sort of change that sees Labour & Green incompetents sent packing ;)

777
09-06-2023, 05:18 PM
Listening to Jamie McKay, agriculture reporter, on the radio last week he basically said it was dead in the water.

nztx
10-06-2023, 10:13 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/greens-promise-wealth-tax-as-research-reveals-rich-stash-470b-in-trusts/5NGLCR7UV5B35M4DZDGOYVYOKI/

Greens promise wealth tax as research reveals rich stash $470b in trusts


And Joe Public may promise Chloe & her insignificant Green socialist mates a slight adjustment in lifestyle
back ito the backwaters of Political No Man's Land in October .. along with another bunch of clueless losers
their lot rode in with ;)


that might make someone cry :)

fungus pudding
10-06-2023, 10:20 AM
[QUOTE=nztx;1007234]https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/greens-promise-wealth-tax-as-research-reveals-rich-stash-470b-in-trusts/5NGLCR7UV5B35M4DZDGOYVYOKI/

Greens promise wealth tax as research reveals rich stash $470b in trusts


And Joe Public may promise Chloe & her insignificant Green socialist mates a slight adjustment in lifestyle
back ito the backwaters of Political No Man's Land in October .. along with another bunch of clueless losers
they lot rode in with ;)[/QUOTE

davflaws
10-06-2023, 10:29 AM
[QUOTE=nztx;1007234]https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/greens-promise-wealth-tax-as-research-reveals-rich-stash-470b-in-trusts/5NGLCR7UV5B35M4DZDGOYVYOKI/

Greens promise wealth tax as research reveals rich stash $470b in trusts


And Joe Public may promise Chloe & her insignificant Green socialist mates a slight adjustment in lifestyle
back ito the backwaters of Political No Man's Land in October .. along with another bunch of clueless losers
they lot rode in with ;)[/QUOTE

.... and ?

SBQ
10-06-2023, 02:46 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/greens-promise-wealth-tax-as-research-reveals-rich-stash-470b-in-trusts/5NGLCR7UV5B35M4DZDGOYVYOKI/

Greens promise wealth tax as research reveals rich stash $470b in trusts


And Joe Public may promise Chloe & her insignificant Green socialist mates a slight adjustment in lifestyle
back ito the backwaters of Political No Man's Land in October .. along with another bunch of clueless losers
their lot rode in with ;)


that might make someone cry :)

Why does Chloe make it sound like people are criminals for holding their assets in a trust? What would be the case if the person held that much wealth directly in their name? We have a wealth tax by investing in overseas shares under FIF, now she wants another wealth tax on assets held in NZ. How much tax are those top wealthiest paying compared to if they held the assets in their name (where the tax is paid at a progressive tax/bracket base vs flat rate trust rate)?

The Greens are trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. Trusts in NZ are not much different than trusts in other countries. They're flat rate and often pay more tax than if the person held them directly. If a tax should be imposed, I would say a land tax on more than 1 house ownership would be more effective and easy to monitor than to have accountants go through a declaration process.

Balance
10-06-2023, 02:52 PM
Why does Chloe make it sound like people are criminals for holding their assets in a trust? What would be the case if the person held that much wealth directly in their name? We have a wealth tax by investing in overseas shares under FIF, now she wants another wealth tax on assets held in NZ. How much tax are those top wealthiest paying compared to if they held the assets in their name (where the tax is paid at a progressive tax/bracket base vs flat rate trust rate)?

The Greens are trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. Trusts in NZ are not much different than trusts in other countries. They're flat rate and often pay more tax than if the person held them directly. If a tax should be imposed, I would say a land tax on more than 1 house ownership would be more effective and easy to monitor than to have accountants go through a declaration process.`1

Typical socialist and communist crap - politics of envy.

They do not have a single idea on how to grow a country's wealth so want to buy votes by taking from those who work hard and save hard to those who don't.

Breed parasites and beneficiaries.

Blue Skies
10-06-2023, 05:00 PM
Here's PWC partner Geof Nightingale who has been on last 2 tax working groups for the govt, discussing the pro & cons of Wealth Taxes (at 6.49), CGT & Land taxes, and their likelihood.
Well worth watching.

On a Wealth Tax which both Working Groups advised against to the govt, he says there's 2 issues, 1) Valuations & 2) Cash Flow.

1) A lot of wealth is held by NZ'ers in small unlisted businesses, how do you value these?

2) How do you fund an annual wealth tax on the value of your assets esp if you have assets with poor cash flow. You end up having to sell assets to fund the tax earlier than you might & at inopportune times, which is economically damaging & inefficient for the economy.

Because of this, & the fact there is no Revenue crisis so it's hard to make a case for it apart from fairness which is a value judgement, I can't see it getting off the ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSB7OYyEZTk

dibble
10-06-2023, 06:10 PM
Here's PWC partner Geof Nightingale who has been on last 2 tax working groups for the govt, discussing the pro & cons of Wealth Taxes (at 6.49), CGT & Land taxes, and their likelihood.
Well worth watching.


2) How do you fund an annual wealth tax on the value of your assets esp if you have assets with poor cash flow. You end up having to sell assets to fund the tax earlier than you might & at inopportune times, which is economically damaging & inefficient for the economy.



Aha, do the greens have a product for you! Remember last time, if you cant afford it you can sort of reverse mortgage it to death. A wealth tax with a design feature for those who couldnt afford it. Interesting definition of wealth.

Swarbrook? Cant think of a more smug politician. Or person for that matter.

Im having trouble understanding what the "greens" want, last time the wealth tax was their only must-have policy. 2023 looks to be a repeat. And this when they keep telling us climate change is the most important issue of the age. Interesting priorities.

And given wealth tax is perhaps the most complicated of capital taxes, accountants will be the winners, who thought the greens would be supporting their new boats and baches.

SBQ
10-06-2023, 09:51 PM
Aha, do the greens have a product for you! Remember last time, if you cant afford it you can sort of reverse mortgage it to death. A wealth tax with a design feature for those who couldnt afford it. Interesting definition of wealth.

Swarbrook? Cant think of a more smug politician. Or person for that matter.

Im having trouble understanding what the "greens" want, last time the wealth tax was their only must-have policy. 2023 looks to be a repeat. And this when they keep telling us climate change is the most important issue of the age. Interesting priorities.

And given wealth tax is perhaps the most complicated of capital taxes, accountants will be the winners, who thought the greens would be supporting their new boats and baches.

Have a look over to our big neighbour Australia, and see how they treat taxes. I'm certain they had a hard look at bringing in a wealth tax but instead, opted for a simple flat rate land tax. As my uncle living in the Gold Coast that owns multiple properties told me, he found the land tax was a big expense in that at times, if some of his rentals were empty, he would still be stuck paying this tax year after year which would hit his profit margins considerably in tough times. If I recall, he told me if he were to do it all over again, he would be better owning shares in good ASX companies because it's just not worth the headache and stress managing properties has on his family. His only benefit he gets is he was able to negative gear through having multiple mortgages ; how you say... asset rich but cash poor.

What Ms Swarbrook is proposing is not a tax on land ownership, but a wealth tax on ALL assets (or i've not seen any comments from her on 'specific assets' that may be exempted). Robinhood must be her favourite movie.

Blue Skies
10-06-2023, 10:55 PM
Have a look over to our big neighbour Australia, and see how they treat taxes. I'm certain they had a hard look at bringing in a wealth tax but instead, opted for a simple flat rate land tax. As my uncle living in the Gold Coast that owns multiple properties told me, he found the land tax was a big expense in that at times, if some of his rentals were empty, he would still be stuck paying this tax year after year which would hit his profit margins considerably in tough times. If I recall, he told me if he were to do it all over again, he would be better owning shares in good ASX companies because it's just not worth the headache and stress managing properties has on his family. His only benefit he gets is he was able to negative gear through having multiple mortgages ; how you say... asset rich but cash poor.

What Ms Swarbrook is proposing is not a tax on land ownership, but a wealth tax on ALL assets (or i've not seen any comments from her on 'specific assets' that may be exempted). Robinhood must be her favourite movie.



I think we can safely rule out a Land Tax, due complexities unique to NZ around Maori land (& what constitutes Maori land, how loosely would that be defined? )
In my view, exemptions would cause huge divisions even between MP's within the Greens & achieving workable legislation take years.

And we can rule out a Wealth Tax for the reasons I've given above.

nztx
11-06-2023, 03:50 PM
I think we can safely rule out a Land Tax, due complexities unique to NZ around Maori land (& what constitutes Maori land, how loosely would that be defined? )
In my view, exemptions would cause huge divisions even between MP's within the Greens & achieving workable legislation take years.

And we can rule out a Wealth Tax for the reasons I've given above.


which leaves the huddle of Green Hicks up the creek without a paddle on another desperate
attempt to retain relevance as they sit in danger of being washed out when the bathwater gets
emptied out of the larger bath alongside that they are frantically trying to hang on to ;)

A quick glance around the shared leadership of the Greens should send message enough
to all on what little they have any capability of delivering of their fairy tale dreams :)

How much have this hopeless bunch of clowns cost everyone since they started their
sleepwalk & dreaming session ? :)

nztx
11-06-2023, 04:19 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132289369/greens-promise-tax-cuts-for-salaries-under-125000-and-385-per-week-income-guarantee

Greens promise tax cuts for salaries under $125,000, and $385 per week income guarantee


$125,000 pa would have to be subsistence existence now after all the COL, Interest, Rental
and other cost hike ups in just the last 2 years .. what planet are the Greens on ? :)

$385 pw .. just $385 pw guaranteed .. how much rent & cans of beans would that buy now ? :)

In words seen elsewhere .. PATHETIC .. a Pathetic Policy announcement from Greens
who once again demonstrate admirably well just much 'Lost in Space' they continue to remain ;)


Most would have to be fairly green to swallow that pathetic load of worthless attention seeking tripe :)


Seeing a Blue Moon is ranked more likely and Less Rare than a Greeny's Promise ever eventuating :)

but there could be a Green Mooning away and out party coming in October

SBQ
11-06-2023, 05:55 PM
I think we can safely rule out a Land Tax, due complexities unique to NZ around Maori land (& what constitutes Maori land, how loosely would that be defined? )
In my view, exemptions would cause huge divisions even between MP's within the Greens & achieving workable legislation take years.

And we can rule out a Wealth Tax for the reasons I've given above.

Indigenous land ownership 'unique to NZ'? I beg to differ. Australia doesn't seem to have a problem imposing land tax on their aboriginal lands nor the ability to have exemptions. BTW, like Canada, Australia also has a GST system that seems to make certain foods exempt from that tax. In fact, everywhere else around the world seems to have exemptions of some sort without ailment. Canada has successfully created an insurmountable level of taxation around owning real estate, yet the principal owner is exempt from the likes of; vacancy tax, non-resident 20% surcharge to buy the property tax, rates and insurance sur-charges, CGT. All these countries don't seem to have a problem with 'complexities', then why would NZ have any issues? You mean IRD's computer is not big enough and NZ doesn't have programmers? Poppycock in the same form as how we can't build decent energy efficient homes (on the recent NZBC regulations, thicker walls are not the solution for energy efficiency).

The only confusion I see is Green Party voters are clueless at moving a country forward. They believe a Robinhood style of wealth redistribution is going to improve the situation of the poor. This has never ever worked in other countries that spew socialism to the extreme. If the Green Party ever gets these kinds of policy through, it will solidify my family's future plan to move back to Canada as the NZ gov't will do nothing for those with mental or physical disabilities (having 2 children with ASD and ADHD). There's no worse way in punishing hard working families who have children with special needs just because they've worked hard to achieve a nest egg, to only be taxed without consideration of their family needs. I DO know in Canada, the gov't there recognises Autism as a disability and gives exemptions in all areas from taxation, to social services. For starters, a Disability Trust allows the individual to be not taxed at trust rates but at individual progressive tax rates. Their investments also can grow 100% tax free in a RDSP stock market portfolio. None of these programs exist in NZ because the gov't is happy pushing them on the WINZ benefit for eternity. Ok enough of my rant...

Blue Skies
11-06-2023, 06:27 PM
Indigenous land ownership 'unique to NZ'? I beg to differ. Australia doesn't seem to have a problem imposing land tax on their aboriginal lands nor the ability to have exemptions. BTW, like Canada, Australia also has a GST system that seems to make certain foods exempt from that tax. In fact, everywhere else around the world seems to have exemptions of some sort without ailment. Canada has successfully created an insurmountable level of taxation around owning real estate, yet the principal owner is exempt from the likes of; vacancy tax, non-resident 20% surcharge to buy the property tax, rates and insurance sur-charges, CGT. All these countries don't seem to have a problem with 'complexities', then why would NZ have any issues? You mean IRD's computer is not big enough and NZ doesn't have programmers? Poppycock in the same form as how we can't build decent energy efficient homes (on the recent NZBC regulations, thicker walls are not the solution for energy efficiency).

The only confusion I see is Green Party voters are clueless at moving a country forward. They believe a Robinhood style of wealth redistribution is going to improve the situation of the poor. This has never ever worked in other countries that spew socialism to the extreme. If the Green Party ever gets these kinds of policy through, it will solidify my family's future plan to move back to Canada as the NZ gov't will do nothing for those with mental or physical disabilities (having 2 children with ASD and ADHD). There's no worse way in punishing hard working families who have children with special needs just because they've worked hard to achieve a nest egg, to only be taxed without consideration of their family needs. I DO know in Canada, the gov't there recognises Autism as a disability and gives exemptions in all areas from taxation, to social services. For starters, a Disability Trust allows the individual to be not taxed at trust rates but at individual progressive tax rates. Their investments also can grow 100% tax free in a RDSP stock market portfolio. None of these programs exist in NZ because the gov't is happy pushing them on the WINZ benefit for eternity. Ok enough of my rant...



Australia doesn't & never has had a Treaty with its indigenous peoples & although I understand Canada had the vaguely worded The Royal Proclamation of 1763 with its First Nation peoples & King George recognising their rights to the lands they occupied, there's no equivalence to NZ's founding document, Te Tiriti O Waitangi outlining the relationship between the Crown & Māori.


The way I see it, neither a Wealth Tax or Land Tax are workable here for reasons I've previously outlined.
How do you annually value an asset like a small business e.g. a plumbing or electrician or mechanics business, or a bedding retailer or a someones jewellery or art collection ? Often you've no idea what they're worth until they're sold.

SBQ
11-06-2023, 06:50 PM
Australia doesn't & never has had a Treaty with its indigenous peoples & although I understand Canada had the vaguely worded The Royal Proclamation of 1763 with its First Nation peoples & King George recognising their rights to the lands they occupied, there's no equivalence to NZ's founding document, Te Tiriti O Waitangi outlining the relationship between the Crown & Māori.


The way I see it, neither a Wealth Tax or Land Tax are workable here for reasons I've previously outlined.
How do you annually value an asset like a small business e.g. a plumbing or electrician or mechanics business, or a bedding retailer or a someones jewellery or art collection ? Often you've no idea what they're worth until they're sold.

As I mentioned in my previous posts, a 'wealth' tax that has been proposed by the Green Party is difficult on the reasons you mentioned. It has never been effectively done anywhere else in the world. This is why I brought up the issue of 'land tax' which many countries around the world do and it really has nothing to do with reference to any land treaties with the indigenous people. If it did, then explain how can various municipals impose 'rates' or what we call abroad, "property taxes" ?

We have computers that already record the values of land titles throughout the country. Again, if you feel that the Maori have some special entitlement, then they can be exempted in a simple way as how they do in Canada. The chief and their band status card is sufficient proof to show the city council that they are exempted on such a tax on their properties they own. This is not something nouveau here. ALL land can be assessed a value.

Blue Skies
11-06-2023, 07:20 PM
As I mentioned in my previous posts, a 'wealth' tax that has been proposed by the Green Party is difficult on the reasons you mentioned. It has never been effectively done anywhere else in the world. This is why I brought up the issue of 'land tax' which many countries around the world do and it really has nothing to do with reference to any land treaties with the indigenous people. If it did, then explain how can various municipals impose 'rates' or what we call abroad, "property taxes" ?

We have computers that already record the values of land titles throughout the country. Again, if you feel that the Maori have some special entitlement, then they can be exempted in a simple way as how they do in Canada. The chief and their band status card is sufficient proof to show the city council that they are exempted on such a tax on their properties they own. This is not something nouveau here. ALL land can be assessed a value.


Yes & you might right and perhaps a Land Tax is workable.

But there are 3 different types of Māori land, Maori Freehold land, Maori Customary Land and General Land owned by Maori, and all I can see is a quagmire trying to impose & enforce a land tax, & any sensible government thinking, lets not go there, there must be easier ways of rebalancing the tax system if we really wanted to. e.g., increasing the tax rate on trusts to match the highest tax rate, or adjusting GST or the top tax rate.

As Geof Nightingale from the govt's own tax working group says, there's no revenue crisis, so its hard to justify a wealth or land tax on anything other than fairness, which is a value judgement.

jonu
11-06-2023, 07:39 PM
Yes & you might right and perhaps a Land Tax is workable.

But there are 3 different types of Māori land, Maori Freehold land, Maori Customary Land and General Land owned by Maori, and all I can see is a quagmire trying to impose & enforce a land tax, & any sensible government thinking, lets not go there, there must be easier ways of rebalancing the tax system if we really wanted to. e.g., increasing the tax rate on trusts to match the highest tax rate, or adjusting GST or the top tax rate.

As Geof Nightingale from the govt's own tax working group says, there's no revenue crisis, so its hard to justify a wealth or land tax on anything other than fairness, which is a value judgement.

Nightingale is right. There is no revenue crisis (yet). There is a spending crisis.

SBQ
11-06-2023, 09:09 PM
Nightingale is right. There is no revenue crisis (yet). There is a spending crisis.

and as Milton Friedman (Nobel prize US economist RIP) said, the best thing to control gov'ts way of spending is by LOWERING taxes. When the tax revenue crisis hits, then it's too late as gov'ts would be striving to meet social demands and targets. In Friedman's view, lowering taxes would reduce the tax take and 'force' gov'ts to reconsider, and waste less.

Blue Skies
11-06-2023, 10:33 PM
Another reason why a Land Tax can be economically damaging & create inefficiencies is around agricultural land, horticulture & farms, where bits of the farm might have to be sold off to pay for the annual tax.
So would agricultural land be excluded & how loosely would that be defined or how easily would loop holes be created?

Bjauck
12-06-2023, 04:38 AM
Why does Chloe make it sound like people are criminals for holding their assets in a trust? What would be the case if the person held that much wealth directly in their name? We have a wealth tax by investing in overseas shares under FIF, now she wants another wealth tax on assets held in NZ. How much tax are those top wealthiest paying compared to if they held the assets in their name (where the tax is paid at a progressive tax/bracket base vs flat rate trust rate)?

The Greens are trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. Trusts in NZ are not much different than trusts in other countries. They're flat rate and often pay more tax than if the person held them directly. If a tax should be imposed, I would say a land tax on more than 1 house ownership would be more effective and easy to monitor than to have accountants go through a declaration process.

In some countries settlor-interested trusts, where the settlor retains a benefit from the assets in a trust, have different tax rules from those trusts in which the settlor is not also a beneficiary.

Bjauck
12-06-2023, 08:28 AM
Another reason why a Land Tax can be economically damaging & create inefficiencies is around agricultural land, horticulture & farms, where bits of the farm might have to be sold off to pay for the annual tax.
So would agricultural land be excluded & how loosely would that be defined or how easily would loop holes be created?
Could a tax charge be registered on the land title which could be discharged when sold or when the farmer has a bumper year? If agricultural zoned land has an unrealistic tax imposed there should be a review mechanism.

Another tax could be the reintroduction of stamp duties on land transfers. Also ahead of a land or wealth tax should be a CGT and imputed rent income tax (on owner occupiers). However electorally significant and entitled vested interest groups would be affected.

SBQ
12-06-2023, 08:36 AM
Another reason why a Land Tax can be economically damaging & create inefficiencies is around agricultural land, horticulture & farms, where bits of the farm might have to be sold off to pay for the annual tax.
So would agricultural land be excluded & how loosely would that be defined or how easily would loop holes be created?

How difficult would farming and agriculture land be exempted from land tax? They do that in the US and Canada and i'm certain in Australia (has a lot of agricultural land) would be no different. What I see now in NZ is nothing but excuses to the way how such tax is administered abroad.

There's nothing stopping from a person residing in a farm house as a principal residence. The focus on the land tax is not to punish 1st time home owners or single home dwellings but rather, to discourage the use of owning multiple houses (demand controls) who turn houses as a commodity for profiteering.

SBQ
12-06-2023, 09:06 AM
In some countries settlor-interested trusts, where the settlor retains a benefit from the assets in a trust, have different tax rules from those trusts in which the settlor is not also a beneficiary.

Some years ago I applauded what Justin Trudeau has done in Canada to impose demand controls on speculation of residential homes. While many would say Trudeau and Ardern have many similarities, in the area of economic development and taxation, the two are world's apart. In Jacinda's early 1st election campaign she said she would bring in CGT to address unaffordable housing in NZ. Then after taking gov't control via a 3 way coalition, she went to the podium to say she will never bring CGT for as long as she's in gov't. On the other hand with Trudeau, he simply ripped the page out of the Cdn income tax act and rewrote it... enough to create a book on it's own around property speculation.

During Trudeau's 1st term, he imposed a task force of tax auditors to address the issue of why house prices have gone up so quickly. They pointed out that foreign demand, lax regulations around reporting, and few banking controls lead to the rise of house prices. Unlike NZ politicians, they recognised that only so many houses could be built in Canada and that increasing the supply would not change the outcome. So their only choice was to attack the demand side as the tax auditors discovered:

1) Many of the houses in Vancouver and elsewhere in Canada were purchased by 'non-residents' who have no intention to live in them but used the Canadian real estate market as a means to 'park their wealth' while they lived a pompous lifestyle abroad. They would claim the house as a principal residence when it came to paying rates (which has the lowest property tax rate).

2) Since many of these properties were owned by non-residents, the issue came to neglecting maintenance. This came to cities like Vancouver having imposed a 'Vacancy Tax' which is assessed annually. So how does the city find out that house is vacant? Simple, they use computers, like the one at the tax department which in Canada, every year you are required to file a tax return that declare your home address and status. Don't forget, those computers also track your passport or ID (that you would use to purchase the house). BTW, even if you placed the home under a rental property manager, that would not exempt you from the tax as the interpretation of 'vacancy' means the home owner does not use it. So you can very well be renting the place out but be subjected to the tax.

3) Canada has 2 approaches of taxation on the sale of a home. Either CGT which is 50% of the gain is taxable income OR full 100% of the capital gain is taxable. Well you can imagine what the tax auditors discovered when overseas owners were selling the homes without paying a $1 of tax on the gain as they claimed it to be their principal residence.

4) Stamp duty or 'transfer tax' was increased. Mostly exempted to the 1st time home owner living in Canada, but again in similar fashion you had non-residents who would claim to be exempt from that tax.

5) A "Non-residence Buyers Tax" of a WHOPPING 20% !!! So on a $2M house, you would pay an ADDITIONAL $400,000 on the purchase of the house. Unlike what we did in NZ by simply banning foreign buyers. Trudeau took the approach that hey, let's really hit them hard by making them pay so their wallets hurt. We don't want to take away freedom and so Canada is saying to all those Hollywood celebrities, "Yes you CAN own the mansion in Canada.... but you're gonna pay for it".

BTW, at any moment a house is held under a company name or under a trust name, ALL those tax exemptions do not apply because a company or a trust is 'not a living person'. Even a non-resident that forms a trust in Canada can not evade from the tax as the settlors (who form the trust) have to declare where they reside. In NZ, i'm unaware of IRD has any distinction between how trusts are formed by a NZ resident or a non-resident. As I recall John Key saying when he was asked about banning foreign buyers he said, "Is there any difference if the home is owned by person in NZ or if a non-resident person forming a NZ trust, then buys the house under the trust?"

There's a fundamental problem in how NZ addresses taxation. Because our model tends to prefer taxing at the beginning, instead of at end of the investment. So we find that issues like a wealth tax being of a great threat (perhaps double taxed). A good example is owning shares listed overseas, where FIF kicks in and IRD rubs their hands as primarily we are talking about the working class paying into Kiwi Saver and the fund managers that choose to buy shares abroad (because keeping all the investments in NZ is not diversified enough). This results in the people at the top end will concentrate their wealth by owning multiple houses. A very stark difference to what happens in Canada under the control of Justin Trudeau.

Also, the NZ trust tax rate increase to 39% will do nothing in increasing IRD's tax take. Everyone plays by the rules to ensure the houses they own will fall well past the bright line test. If this was in Canada, the ONLY exemption from capital gains tax is owning the house in the person's name.

ValueNZ
12-06-2023, 09:52 AM
Some years ago I applauded what Justin Trudeau has done in Canada to impose demand controls on speculation of residential homes. While many would say Trudeau and Ardern have many similarities, in the area of economic development and taxation, the two are world's apart. In Jacinda's early 1st election campaign she said she would bring in CGT to address unaffordable housing in NZ. Then after taking gov't control via a 3 way coalition, she went to the podium to say she will never bring CGT for as long as she's in gov't. On the other hand with Trudeau, he simply ripped the page out of the Cdn income tax act and rewrote it... enough to create a book on it's own around property speculation.

During Trudeau's 1st term, he imposed a task force of tax auditors to address the issue of why house prices have gone up so quickly. They pointed out that foreign demand, lax regulations around reporting, and few banking controls lead to the rise of house prices. Unlike NZ politicians, they recognised that only so many houses could be built in Canada and that increasing the supply would not change the outcome. So their only choice was to attack the demand side as the tax auditors discovered

I disagree with this, there is plenty of land which can be developed and built on in both New Zealand and Canada. Legislation that slows down, and adds expenses to building houses should be removed so that quantity supplied of housing can increase as quickly as possible. Naturally prices should therefore fall, since any speculation pushing prices up are counteracted by more housing built later on.

kiora
12-06-2023, 10:21 AM
What about the infrastructure required including local government infrastructure?

Who pays?

SBQ
12-06-2023, 10:48 AM
What about the infrastructure required including local government infrastructure?

Who pays?

In my simplistic observation since living in NZ for the past 25+ years. The way land developments work in NZ is the developer is stuck with the cost of the infrastructure. There's all forms of costs to the local council in the forms of "DC = Developmental Contribution" fee which get added on to the price tag of the subdivided section. These costs never go down and a key reason why 3 Waters is being pushed as it would address in infrastructure blocks (caused by insufficient or limited funding by private developers).

I would like to ask Ms Swarbrick in her wealth tax proposal. Why should those that want to own a home, subsidize the gov't by paying taxes, when a fair % of the cost of the property has been born out of the high cost of producing new sections and houses for sale? Have a look at the price tags of new homes in the North Shore of Auckland (the only real place where new houses are being built). MASSIVE cost of the infrastructure leading to $1M+ section prices. The majority of the NZ population lives in high density places (the big 3 cities) where house prices on average will reach well over $1M.

In Canada we have a thing called "indexation" which is basically having fiscal figures tied to inflation. On the taxation side, ALL of our tax brackets rise each year according to the CPI. Why is IRD's tax brackets never been reflected to the rise in inflation over the past 10 or 20 years? Instead when prices go out of hand, they do a review and then oh well, I guess we can move the brackets a bit. What a horrible way to address problems later on when in Canada, the level of tax paid goes according to the level of inflation. Likewise on Canada's CPP and OAS gov't pension. Those payments TOO also rise according to the level of inflation every year.

Someone needs to ask Ms Swarbrick if her wealth tax threshold will be 'indexed to inflation' ?? Or does the NZ gov't and IRD lack the computing power to understand such a basic concept? Because all i'm hearing is nothing but a bunch of excuses, like oh that's too complicated, or oh we like to do it this way not like how everyone else abroad does things.

Balance
12-06-2023, 11:55 AM
Great question from Sir Ian Taylor to Chloe … think she will take the opportunity given to her to answer?

He is referring to a real life business set up by a wealthy individual and which now pays $40m in taxes a year.


“That is $40m in tax, annually, generated by one person who had the courage to build a business and create those jobs. Yes, he is wealthy (I prefer “successful”) but how many people can you identify in that debating chamber who generate that much revenue for you to spend, every year?

This leads me to my final point.

The annual tax take is $113 billion a year. Of that, $19b is spent on health, $17b is spent on education. Both are on the verge of collapse.

So, Chlöe, my question of you is: When will you start to give those who take the risks to create jobs that pay tax the confidence that, were we to pay more, you will spend it well and not pour it down a seemingly endless drain with little or no accountability?

Sir Ian Taylor is the founder and managing director of Animation Research.”

Balance
12-06-2023, 11:57 AM
Will start having some respect for Chloe if she actually answers Sir Ian Taylor.

So here’s watching and monitoring.

nztx
12-06-2023, 12:02 PM
Great question from Sir Ian Taylor to Chloe … think she will take the opportunity given to her to answer?

He is referring to a real life business set up by a wealthy individual and which now pays $40m in taxes a year.


“That is $40m in tax, annually, generated by one person who had the courage to build a business and create those jobs. Yes, he is wealthy (I prefer “successful”) but how many people can you identify in that debating chamber who generate that much revenue for you to spend, every year?

This leads me to my final point.

The annual tax take is $113 billion a year. Of that, $19b is spent on health, $17b is spent on education. Both are on the verge of collapse.

So, Chlöe, my question of you is: When will you start to give those who take the risks to create jobs that pay tax the confidence that, were we to pay more, you will spend it well and not pour it down a seemingly endless drain with little or no accountability?

Sir Ian Taylor is the founder and managing director of Animation Research.”



Perhaps he prefers a CGT impost instead .. applicable when personal wealth reaches $25 million ? ;)

75% for those who floated the idea and made a noise, 35% for those who chose to not be so noisy :)

The bait got eaten .. and the small green fry are back expecting a larger feast hoping some of the
braindead out around the country might stop to listen to their screaming for attention ;)

Perhaps Chloe should go back to playschool and in future choose her associates more carefully
so that those who have done something more productive than her don't get their backs up ? ;)

nztx
12-06-2023, 12:13 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-greens-co-leader-james-shaw-joins-newstalk-zbs-mike-hosking-to-discuss-partys-tax-policy/M3EGC7FNG5FTVGRJHZT4PJGMBI/

Election 2023: Greens co-leader James Shaw on Newstalk ZB’s Mike Hosking to discuss party’s tax policy


"Tap Tap .. James say to pass whisper .. time to wake up from Long Sleep .. it election year :)

Pass the message and wake up the one next to you .. and tell them to do the same

If these Labour fools get given the push we could all be looking for new day jobs
and won't be able to day dream or sleepwalk so much with slashed large cushy allowances ;)

No-one will get their guaranteed $385 a week and those under $125K will all be left starving in poverty
in failed Green Pie in the Sky Lala Dreamland " ;)

We got to do this .. cos no-one else want to know us, if Chippie the Clown fall flat on face


"People's tolerance of the Greens being sound asleep to reality and only waking up in election year is at an end" ;)

nztx
13-06-2023, 05:18 PM
https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/4/z/5/e/r/i/image.related.StuffThumbnailSixteenByNine.1600x900 .26rok4.png/1686575874965.jpg?optimize=high&crop=16:9,smart&width=748&format=webp


Hey James .. this new green game - winner will be the one who manages to get as many players stuck upside
down facing into & mounted on the opposite wall .. 100 Bonus points for each head that goes through the wall and comes back wide awake with a rain sample .. no vines or bush ladders permitted .. any found still asleep on wall after attempt will be disqualified for making bad emissions ;)

SBQ
13-06-2023, 10:09 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-greens-co-leader-james-shaw-joins-newstalk-zbs-mike-hosking-to-discuss-partys-tax-policy/M3EGC7FNG5FTVGRJHZT4PJGMBI/

Election 2023: Greens co-leader James Shaw on Newstalk ZB’s Mike Hosking to discuss party’s tax policy


"Tap Tap .. James say to pass whisper .. time to wake up from Long Sleep .. it election year :)

Pass the message and wake up the one next to you .. and tell them to do the same

If these Labour fools get given the push we could all be looking for new day jobs
and won't be able to day dream or sleepwalk so much with slashed large cushy allowances ;)

No-one will get their guaranteed $385 a week and those under $125K will all be left starving in poverty
in failed Green Pie in the Sky Lala Dreamland " ;)

We got to do this .. cos no-one else want to know us, if Chippie the Clown fall flat on face


"People's tolerance of the Greens being sound asleep to reality and only waking up in election year is at an end" ;)

The message from Mr Shaw is that it seems the gov't should be responsible in fixing child poverty in NZ. I'm not convinced throwing a bunch of $ around will fix things when i'm very certain, the root cause of the poverty lies more to do with poor parenting or children living in a conflicting environment (negative cultural or beliefs?)

BTW, those tax brackets are a disgrace for NZ. At least over in Canada the people there understand indexation of the tax brackets:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/these-are-the-new-tax-brackets-for-2023-1.6293874

33% doesn't hit until you earn over $235K which is a major difference to $170K in NZ.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/content/dam/ctvnews/en/images/2023/3/13/tax-rate-by-tax-brackets-in-2023-1-6311413-1678741672525.png

Balance
14-06-2023, 01:25 PM
Failure after failure by this useless and clueless government with the equally clueless Greens :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/132315080/government-short-half-a-billion-in-revenue-after-pollution-auction-fails

Sideshow Bob
16-06-2023, 08:12 AM
Open letter from Sir Ian Taylor to Chloe....

A top read.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/openl-letter-chl%2525C3%2525B6e-swarbrick-ian-taylor-%3FtrackingId=JsiR4DPUQeSPX43IPi2mrg%253D%253D/?trackingId=JsiR4DPUQeSPX43IPi2mrg%3D%3D

nztx
16-06-2023, 12:58 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/wealth-tax-hikes-will-pay-for-income-tax-cuts-and-welfare-overhaul-greens/FCRYI5THFVECPNUS2IB2N7REWA/?dicbo=v2-9tU9Wlt&&ref=topbox

Election 2023: Greens’ wealth tax comes with income tax cuts and welfare overhaul

On the Weird & Wonderful 'Planet James & Marama' .. Wealth Tax will pay for everyone to go to the Moon too

provided someone else is lined up on the paying end ;)

nztx
20-06-2023, 03:54 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/greens-co-leader-marama-davidson-accuses-act-of-racist-questioning-speaker-ejects-her-from-the-house/J7WESTXGONG37CADPICJJX7JA4/

Greens co-leader Marama Davidson accuses Act of racist questioning, Speaker ejects her from the House




Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson has been ejected from the House after claiming Act Party MPs were elevating racism through their line of questioning.

The incident was sparked by Act leader David Seymour attempting to ask a question in te reo Māori which fell flat with Speaker of the House Adrian Rurawhe, who said Seymour was not actually asking a proper question.


Shame .. has she lost her marbles ? :)

Shouldn't be so Racist darling .. or Speaker might have ye Racist butt outside more than in chambers.. ;)

And then poor White boy James might start feeling all alone with no Waka and no navigation floundering further down the list :)

dobby41
21-06-2023, 01:34 PM
Shouldn't be so Racist darling .. or Speaker might have ye Racist butt outside more than in chambers.. ;)

She wasn't kicked out for being racist (as you seem to imply) but because she called Seymour racist which isn't allowed.
She then didn't apologise correctly.

Balance
25-06-2023, 10:14 AM
Open letter from Sir Ian Taylor to Chloe....

A top read.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/openl-letter-chl%2525C3%2525B6e-swarbrick-ian-taylor-%3FtrackingId=JsiR4DPUQeSPX43IPi2mrg%253D%253D/?trackingId=JsiR4DPUQeSPX43IPi2mrg%3D%3D

And here's the 28 year old Chloe doing everything except reply to Sir Ian Taylor's article :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chloe-swarbrick-i-become-such-a-bogeyman/66B5HPZJ6JCZ3GO6ESN77MOFIM/

"She was puzzled and bemused by Sir Ian Taylor’s recent column in the NZ Herald, an open letter addressed to her over the Greens’ wealth tax plans.

Was it written, she asks, before the Greens’ wealth tax policy announcement, which was fronted by co-leader James Shaw (it was – but Taylor’s letter was about Swarbrick’s comments in a Herald news article the prior week).

She said she had read Taylor’s column four times and couldn’t make out his point.

“I’m not disputing that he’s worked hard but there’s also millions of New Zealanders who work really, really hard.

“But we’re kidding ourselves if we start from the premise that hard work equals wealth.”

What about the point that a higher tax take may de-stabilise the success and businesses of successful Kiwis - and therefore impact the jobs of thousands?

She says she’s well across the theory of trickledown economics."

nztx
25-06-2023, 02:55 PM
And here's the 28 year old Chloe doing everything except reply to Sir Ian Taylor's article :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chloe-swarbrick-i-become-such-a-bogeyman/66B5HPZJ6JCZ3GO6ESN77MOFIM/

"She was puzzled and bemused by Sir Ian Taylor’s recent column in the NZ Herald, an open letter addressed to her over the Greens’ wealth tax plans.

Was it written, she asks, before the Greens’ wealth tax policy announcement, which was fronted by co-leader James Shaw (it was – but Taylor’s letter was about Swarbrick’s comments in a Herald news article the prior week).

She said she had read Taylor’s column four times and couldn’t make out his point.

“I’m not disputing that he’s worked hard but there’s also millions of New Zealanders who work really, really hard.

“But we’re kidding ourselves if we start from the premise that hard work equals wealth.”

What about the point that a higher tax take may de-stabilise the success and businesses of successful Kiwis - and therefore impact the jobs of thousands?

She says she’s well across the theory of trickledown economics."



Papers must have been crying desperate for content still badly confused as it came across :)

Let's face it with Labour's head clown doing so many head dips into the muck and back up lately,
that trick might be getting stale ;)

nztx
02-07-2023, 01:01 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132464640/greens-rental-rules-rent-control-and-warrant-of-fitness-on-election-wishlist

Greens' rental rules: Rent control and warrant of fitness on election wishlist




The Green Party wants to bring in rent controls by introducing a yearly cap on how much a landlord can increase a tenant’s rent.

The proposed cap would be at a maximum of 3%, but could be reduced in years of low inflation and low wage growth. Increases of more than 3% would be allowed if substantial changes were made to the property, such as kitchen renovations. The tenant would also need to agree to the increase.

The party also wants to introduce a ‘rental warrant of fitness’ to ensure rentals were not breaching the Healthy Homes Standards.


Fine when everyone else is paying & the little green knobs are playing around the fire at the bottom of the garden ;)

Clearly the Greens forget that they have still not passed their own warrant of fitness and are unlikely to do so in next 1000 years :)

dibble
02-07-2023, 04:56 PM
Re: wealth tax, and because the greens are too up-themselves (or stoned) to ever explain the detail, anyone have any (eg overseas) experience of how these things might work in practice?
Obvious ones arent problematic but eg how would Iwi wealth and other communal groups with considerable wealth get taxed?

Are individuals expected to value everything inside the house every year? Cash? Trusts?

Can you include your granny to make your allowance $6m if she lives with you?
Etc etc

FTG
02-07-2023, 05:14 PM
Re: wealth tax, and because the greens are too up-themselves (or stoned) to ever explain the detail, anyone have any (eg overseas) experience of how these things might work in practice?
Obvious ones arent problematic but eg how would Iwi wealth and other communal groups with considerable wealth get taxed?

Are individuals expected to value everything inside the house every year? Cash? Trusts?

Can you include your granny to make your allowance $6m if she lives with you?
Etc etc

The devil is certainly in the detail and Chloe's bunch seem to have NO appreciation of any of the detail. Hence such a daft policy.

You ask some pertinent questions dibble, for which we can guess that they have no succinct answers for.

Following is an excerpt from an oped by Dr Eric Crampton - Chief Economist at The Initiative. He too poses some questions that have Chloe & co running back into the Hills!


Just consider some of the numbers on what it would do for hurdle rates for wealthy investors in the top income tax bracket. Their next million in investment is hit by the wealth tax. What does that look like?

If inflation is 2%, then an investment must earn at least 2% in nominal returns just to stand still.

Income tax is due on the nominal returns, including inflation. So the investment has to earn at least 3.3% nominal interest, just to stand still and not lose value due to tax, inflation, and the tax on inflation.

Now add a wealth tax of 2.5% that applies to the starting investment, to earnings on it, and to inflation.

That investment must now earn a 7.6% return, just to stand still.

We can put it more concretely. Invest one million dollars (above the tax-exempt threshold) at a 7.6% return and you have $76,000 in nominal earnings. Income tax, at 39%, takes just under $30,000, leaving you with just over $46,000. A 2.5% wealth tax on the investment at the end of the year takes just over $26,000, leaving you with $20,000. And you needed that $20,000 just to keep up with inflation.

Those numbers get worse under the Green Party’s proposed 45% top income tax rate.

If you cannot find investments yielding at least 7.6%, you will be stuck watching the value of your assets slowly decline until you no longer have wealth above the threshold to be taxed.

Or, more likely, you will have fled the country along with your moveable assets before it could happen. Investing in New Zealand would be a lot safer if done from Australia or elsewhere.

It is hardly the only problem with the policy. Valuation across any comprehensive asset base gets very tricky, especially for unlisted companies and small businesses. Trusts would not have the same exclusion thresholds as other wealth holdings, but trusts can be complicated to unwind. New Zealand startups would have a harder time finding investors.

But requiring an investment to hit a 7.6% hurdle rate just to stand still seems sufficiently damning, all on its own.

dibble
02-07-2023, 06:49 PM
The devil is certainly in the detail and Chloe's bunch seem to have NO appreciation of any of the detail. Hence such a daft policy.

You ask some pertinent questions dibble, for which we can guess that they have no succinct answers for.

Following is an excerpt from an oped by Dr Eric Crampton - Chief Economist at The Initiative. He too poses some questions that have Chloe & co running back into the Hills!


Just consider some of the numbers on what it would do for hurdle rates for wealthy investors in the top income tax bracket. Their next million in investment is hit by the wealth tax. What does that look like?

If inflation is 2%, then an investment must earn at least 2% in nominal returns just to stand still.

Income tax is due on the nominal returns, including inflation. So the investment has to earn at least 3.3% nominal interest, just to stand still and not lose value due to tax, inflation, and the tax on inflation.

Now add a wealth tax of 2.5% that applies to the starting investment, to earnings on it, and to inflation.

That investment must now earn a 7.6% return, just to stand still.

We can put it more concretely. Invest one million dollars (above the tax-exempt threshold) at a 7.6% return and you have $76,000 in nominal earnings. Income tax, at 39%, takes just under $30,000, leaving you with just over $46,000. A 2.5% wealth tax on the investment at the end of the year takes just over $26,000, leaving you with $20,000. And you needed that $20,000 just to keep up with inflation.

Those numbers get worse under the Green Party’s proposed 45% top income tax rate.

If you cannot find investments yielding at least 7.6%, you will be stuck watching the value of your assets slowly decline until you no longer have wealth above the threshold to be taxed.

Or, more likely, you will have fled the country along with your moveable assets before it could happen. Investing in New Zealand would be a lot safer if done from Australia or elsewhere.

It is hardly the only problem with the policy. Valuation across any comprehensive asset base gets very tricky, especially for unlisted companies and small businesses. Trusts would not have the same exclusion thresholds as other wealth holdings, but trusts can be complicated to unwind. New Zealand startups would have a harder time finding investors.

But requiring an investment to hit a 7.6% hurdle rate just to stand still seems sufficiently damning, all on its own.



Thanks.

Interesting angle, nothing like a bit of maths to illustrate a point.

Wish they would stick to the environment, where they might do a bit of good.
If memory serves correctly they even had a view on money printing in about 2008.

Blue Skies
02-07-2023, 07:41 PM
Re: wealth tax, and because the greens are too up-themselves (or stoned) to ever explain the detail, anyone have any (eg overseas) experience of how these things might work in practice?
Obvious ones arent problematic but eg how would Iwi wealth and other communal groups with considerable wealth get taxed?

Are individuals expected to value everything inside the house every year? Cash? Trusts?

Can you include your granny to make your allowance $6m if she lives with you?
Etc etc



Not going to happen, govt's tax working group advised against it as too difficult to implement plus has economically damaging consequences.
e.g., a lot of NZ'ers wealth is tied up in small businesses which are extremely difficult to accurately value until sold. Too many variables.
secondly, business owners may be forced to sell off parts of their business at inopportune times to pay the wealth tax, which is economically damaging for the country.

Getty
03-07-2023, 01:16 AM
Not going to happen, govt's tax working group advised against it as too difficult to implement plus has economically damaging consequences.
e.g., a lot of NZ'ers wealth is tied up in small businesses which are extremely difficult to accurately value until sold. Too many variables.
secondly, business owners may be forced to sell off parts of their business at inopportune times to pay the wealth tax, which is economically damaging for the country.

Do you think the Envy Greens give a shirt about that BS?

As long as they are taking money off the productive sector to hand out to the parasites to squander, they feel justified.

Just like slave Labour really!

Bill Smith
03-07-2023, 08:59 AM
Do you think the Envy Greens give a shirt about that BS?

As long as they are taking money off the productive sector to hand out to the parasites to squander, they feel justified.

Just like slave Labour really!

Vote labour. Get greens and maori party for free. Sounds like a Suzanne Paul ad!

Getty
03-07-2023, 09:22 AM
Vote labour. Get greens and maori party for free. Sounds like a Suzanne Paul ad!

Second prize would be 2 for 1!

nztx
03-07-2023, 01:01 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-green-party-wants-rent-increases-limited-to-3pc-a-year/S36EUDWWBVAIVO7RJZAD6JVVXQ/

Election 2023: Green Party wants rent increases limited to 3pc a year


Auckland Rates increase 11% like most everywhere else not far behind .. where have these dumb green pixies been hiding ? ;)

Balance
03-07-2023, 05:59 PM
What happens when a Green politician tastes power.

Notice how she cannot help but lie (as usual with the Greens) when confronted with her misdeeds?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/07/wellington-mayor-tory-whanau-denies-drunken-behaviour-admits-to-being-tipsy-walking-out-of-restaurant-without-paying.html

Lomas didn't serve the pair but said the server who did told him at one point Whanau asked them "Do you know who I am?"

"The server recognised her but wasn't entirely sure so he was just kinda like, 'ah nah I'm not too sure who you are', and she was like 'I'm the mayor of Wellington,'" Lomas said.

"She just kept saying stuff like that."

Balance
03-07-2023, 06:22 PM
Made the news too across the Tasman and note that she cannot be in the wrong as she is the freaking mayor of Wellington?

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/restaurants-bars/tipsy-wellington-mayor-defends-herself-after-leaving-restaurant-without-paying/news-story/b683fb706a801162551e43e66d708531

“She concluded that she had “no regrets” about anything but she would be conscious about people recording her in the future.”

nztx
27-07-2023, 02:32 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/huge-hailstorm-hits-auckland-thunderstorms-to-rumble-across-region-in-coming-hours/XPROOPPS2FCD3FRRYUWPQZ335Q/

Huge hailstorm hits Auckland, thunderstorms to rumble across region in coming hours


Global warning - folks ..

Greens might need new Policy to tax Aucklanders on every Hail Stone they receive, if this continues ;)

nztx
01-08-2023, 07:16 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/green-party-says-overstayer-amnesty-a-priority-if-labour-wants-its-support-after-election/SLDD5AUBHNBKVKFH7O34FJBCRI/

Green Party says overstayer amnesty a priority if Labour wants its support after election




The Green Party says an amnesty for overstayers will be a priority if Labour wants its support after the election as it is revealed the Immigration Minister has further delayed implementing the policy.

Pacific leaders and advocates of migrant communities have long been calling for an amnesty and pathways to residency with an estimated 14,000 people living illegally in New Zealand, some still being subjected to dawn immigration raids.


Let's try a little more Green Blackmail to see if the sleeping Labour Front Bench open their ears - seeing as the Wealth Tax Hissy fit didn't do the trick ;)

SBQ
01-08-2023, 07:59 PM
Too disgusting...

nztx
08-08-2023, 04:41 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/kings-counsel-patent-lawyer-says-green-partys-barbie-political-memes-could-breach-copyright/LSLRIXEMNJFPZAD75GRZ73LVZ4/

King’s Counsel patent lawyer says Green Party’s Barbie political memes could breach copyright



A top patent lawyer says the Green Party could face serious consequences over their use of Barbie movie memes on their social media pages.

Clive Elliott KC, a past president of the Intellectual Property Society of Australia and New Zealand (Ipsanz), told the Herald unless political parties have a license from the creator of the content, they’re not entitled to use it.

“It doesn’t matter who created the work and it’s not a question of the quality of the work, it’s that if someone has created a work, they own the copyright in it and they’re entitled to control who actually uses it.”

A Green Party spokesperson confirmed the party hadn’t sought permission from Barbie’s studio Warner Bros. to “make memes”, but said it sometimes “remixes popular memes to communicate with the public, particularly young people”.


Green's meme BS looks like landing the cabbage munchers in a pile of larger BS .. bring it on ;)

Let's face it - why would any self respecting Barbie want to be linked in any way to this clueless bunch of backwards facing Political retards :)

If asked nicely, maybe Warner could find some discarded Cry Baby stuff that could be painted bright green at a large cost ;)

nztx
16-08-2023, 11:25 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/recycling-a-fraud-and-food-scraps-collection-subsidised-greenwashing-landfill-engineer-says/467POCU6IVAP5HZD2YIFZV4OO4/

Recycling ‘a fraud’ and food scraps collection ‘subsidised greenwashing’, landfill engineer says



Recycling in New Zealand is “essentially a fraud” and food scraps diversion from landfills is “subsidised greenwashing”, a landfill expert tells BusinessDesk.

Waste Management chemical engineer Timothy Brake said “we can’t recycle our way out of the climate crisis”.

He said only a small fraction of our rubbish is recycled, and when it is, it’s often a mere delay to it ending in landfills, shedding microplastics in the environment in the process, he said.

Recycling a plastic drink bottle into meat trays, for example, he says delays the disposal of the plastic from the drink bottle by about a couple of weeks.

“We haven’t solved any of our problems by delaying the process.

”Recycling in the circular economy is essentially a fraud. And there is no point in removing food scraps from modern landfill, generating extra carbon emissions through its transport to sometimes remote facilities,” Brake argues.

Food will “rot away to nothing” in landfill, he says, with each tonne generating 0.3-megawatt hours of sustainable electricity.


Probably another can of worms that Greens would be fully in support of, now being shown up by Experts ;)

Balance
16-08-2023, 11:42 AM
Unsavoury revelations about the inner workings of the Greens promised & expected this afternoon from one of the departing Greens’ MP.

Can’t wait!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132747501/time-to-set-the-record-straight-expect-fireworks-as-retiring-mps-say-goodbye

Former Green MP, turned independent MP, Elizabeth Kerekere says she won’t be holding back as she gets ready for her valedictory speech on Wednesday afternoon.

Her speech is likely to be the most eventful this week, with Kerekere telling Stuff she wants to “set the record straight” on her fallout with the Greens.

nztx
16-08-2023, 08:53 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/elizabeth-kerekere-to-address-green-party-resignation-in-final-speech/3BPVX7UXJNEJPC7CRFVN6ZPUYI/

Elizabeth Kerekere makes final speech, decrying poor process in the Green Party



Former Green MP Dr Elizabeth Kerekere bowed out of Parliament in a mostly subdued speech that made only one barb against her former party.

Kerekere resigned from the Green Party in May after a massive falling out and ahead of an investigation into her conduct following an embarrassing incident in which she appeared to call Chlöe Swarbrick a “crybaby” in a group chat. Kerekere denied the message was intended for Swarbrick.

In her valedictory speech to Parliament, Kerekere said Green co-leaders James Shaw and Marama Davidson made “unfounded and increasingly elaborate allegations about me [her]” up to her resignation.

Not too much loud squawking being emitted from this bird who jumped out of the nest to another ;)

Did buckets of cold water get tossed over her from both camps to shut her up ? ;)

dobby41
17-08-2023, 08:38 AM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/elizabeth-kerekere-to-address-green-party-resignation-in-final-speech/3BPVX7UXJNEJPC7CRFVN6ZPUYI/

Elizabeth Kerekere makes final speech, decrying poor process in the Green Party




Not too much loud squawking being emitted from this bird who jumped out of the nest to another ;)

Did buckets of cold water get tossed over her from both camps to shut her up ? ;)

No - she just never had anything!

Balance
17-08-2023, 08:52 AM
Unsavoury revelations about the inner workings of the Greens promised & expected this afternoon from one of the departing Greens’ MP.

Can’t wait!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132747501/time-to-set-the-record-straight-expect-fireworks-as-retiring-mps-say-goodbye

Former Green MP, turned independent MP, Elizabeth Kerekere says she won’t be holding back as she gets ready for her valedictory speech on Wednesday afternoon.

Her speech is likely to be the most eventful this week, with Kerekere telling Stuff she wants to “set the record straight” on her fallout with the Greens.

Good on her for bringing into disrepute the integrity of the two Green co-leaders/conspirators - no due process and trial by innuendo & rumors.

Not surprising when you look especially at Davidson's record of spraying all and sundry who do not support her with her vile divisive, sexist and racist utterances.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132757387/being-a-green-mp-is-like-competing-on-survivor-elizabeth-kerekere-says

Excerpt : "She said she disputed “all such allegations” of bullying, and read an email from the investigation. “Dated 7.14pm Wednesday 3 May 2023 – exactly four weeks after the original incident,” she told Parliament.

Kerekere’s supporters had argued the investigation was dragged out to hurt her list ranking, an allegation the Green Party leadership denied. She said the email told her that nobody had made a formal complaint, with only Shaw and Davidson voicing concern. “To recap, no formal"

Balance
17-08-2023, 08:59 AM
Good on her for bringing into disrepute the integrity of the two Green co-leaders/conspirators - no due process and trial by innuendo & rumors.

Not surprising when you look especially at Davidson's record of spraying all and sundry who do not support her with her vile divisive, sexist and racist utterances.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132757387/being-a-green-mp-is-like-competing-on-survivor-elizabeth-kerekere-says

Excerpt : "She said she disputed “all such allegations” of bullying, and read an email from the investigation. “Dated 7.14pm Wednesday 3 May 2023 – exactly four weeks after the original incident,” she told Parliament.

Kerekere’s supporters had argued the investigation was dragged out to hurt her list ranking, an allegation the Green Party leadership denied. She said the email told her that nobody had made a formal complaint, with only Shaw and Davidson voicing concern. “To recap, no formal"

And Davidson showed just how hypocritical and nasty a person she is by leaving the kete (Maori goodwill basket) for Kerekere on the floor rather than handing it to her and wishing her well.

Don't give the gift if you are that way inclined - just pxssed off.

"The Green co-leaders waited for a few minutes, but didn’t join the queue of MPs waiting to hug Kerekere. Instead, they bowed and left the debating chamber – with Davidson leaving behind her kete."

Balance
31-12-2023, 08:31 AM
And why is Chloe Swarbrick not leading a rally to protest against how the LGBT community in the Middle East, especially in Gaza, is being prosecuted and killed by their Muslim societies?

Hypocrisy of the highest order - Chloe is nothing but a sham and a fraud.

"From the river to the sea, Chloe is but a demented screaming banshee."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/shaneel-lal-soul-crushing-plight-of-gazas-queer-people/ANSMFS6WJVBV7CJI7V36OQGZ2E/

“Queer Palestinians are defying the old trope that queer people do not exist in Gaza with their fight not only to live but also to be remembered.”

Shame on Swarbrick. Shame.

https://plainsight.nz/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Capture.jpg

whatsup
31-12-2023, 10:25 AM
And why is Chloe Swarbrick not leading a rally to protest against how the LGBT community in the Middle East, especially in Gaza, is being prosecuted and killed by their Muslim societies?

Hypocrisy of the highest order - Chloe is nothing but a sham and a fraud.

"From the river to the sea, Chloe is but a demented screaming banshee."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/shaneel-lal-soul-crushing-plight-of-gazas-queer-people/ANSMFS6WJVBV7CJI7V36OQGZ2E/

“Queer Palestinians are defying the old trope that queer people do not exist in Gaza with their fight not only to live but also to be remembered.”

Shame on Swarbrick. Shame.

https://plainsight.nz/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Capture.jpg

IMHO , Queen MA$$OT !!

Aaron
22-02-2024, 07:29 AM
I like what Chloe is saying in her opinion piece this morning.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/benefit-changes-changes-will-push-more-into-poverty-chloe-swarbrick/SOKZKNTPEFD2XFFNMFOVKHSMAY/

Politically savvy as well as she does not mention that national super which costs more than all other benefits combined will not be affected by the changes. You have to kiss boomer ar*e if you want any chance of being elected.

"The river to the sea" side show puts her in a poor light in my view. She aligns with Iran, Hamas and a lot of Muslims calling for the eradication of Israel. Worrying about something we cannot change even though it is bad seems like a wasted effort. Too much hate for a solution over there I guess. Israel does not want a two state solution they appear to be on a slow quest to eradicate the Palestinians.
NZers might be more sympathetic to the Palestinians if Maori were building Pa on their traditional lands and removing people by force, much like Israel has been doing to the Palestinians for ages.

Anyway the upshot of it all is that Chris Luxon is doing a great job running the country for the benefit of its owners increasing their dividend/share of the pie.

I imagine the trickle down will be a joy to behold for the masses.

Blue Skies
22-02-2024, 08:23 AM
I like what Chloe is saying in her opinion piece this morning.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/benefit-changes-changes-will-push-more-into-poverty-chloe-swarbrick/SOKZKNTPEFD2XFFNMFOVKHSMAY/

Politically savvy as well as she does not mention that national super which costs more than all other benefits combined will not be affected by the changes. You have to kiss boomer ar*e if you want any chance of being elected.

"The river to the sea" side show puts her in a poor light in my view. She aligns with Iran, Hamas and a lot of Muslims calling for the eradication of Israel. Worrying about something we cannot change even though it is bad seems like a wasted effort. Too much hate for a solution over there I guess. Israel does not want a two state solution they appear to be on a slow quest to eradicate the Palestinians.
NZers might be more sympathetic to the Palestinians if Maori were building Pa on their traditional lands and removing people by force, much like Israel has been doing to the Palestinians for ages.

Anyway the upshot of it all is that Chris Luxon is doing a great job running the country for the benefit of its owners increasing their dividend/share of the pie.

I imagine the trickle down will be a joy to behold for the masses.




The Greens support the 2 State solution, Chloe Swarbrick has never called for the eradication of Israel! And she abhors anti-semitism.

The chant 'From the river to the sea" means different things to different people in his highly charged situation.

For many who use the phrase, including some Jewish peace activists, it simply means to free Palestinians from the horrific oppression they live under.
They want to be free like everybody else, & this hysteria over peace activists using the phrase, is a distraction being used by certain politicians and groups to silence opposition to demands for a ceasefire & recognition of a Palestinian state.
It's another diversion tactic like the way any criticism of the current Israeli govt or support of Palestinians used to be labeled anti-semitic with all the weight that term used to carry.



On the other hand the current Israeli govt is definitely not just calling for but forcefully violently pursuing the eradication of the Palestinians from their land, which they don't even recognise exists.

Israel has killed almost 30,000 people, more than 100,000 wounded, thousands missing buried under rubble, by far mostly women & children, where is the humanity, the sense of moral equivalence ?
What's happening now in southern Gaza is beyond belief.

Balance
22-02-2024, 08:53 AM
Hamas opened the gates to hell for the Palestinian people.

Blame them but you will never see the woke leftists like Swarbrick doing so - so end of story to her credibility.

“From the City to Ponsonby, our clothings will be free!” Golriz & Swarbrick!

Aaron
22-02-2024, 09:44 AM
Its a shame these irrelevant side issues of other countries distract from the debate about Gods Own. Not that it matters, there is not a political will to change here as we are still pretty lucky comparatively

I guess, like Hamas you need to get shat on for a long time before you start butchering babies, hope it never happens in NZ. At least we don't have religion to make things worse as the lines being drawn in NZ appear to be financial between the haves and have nots, and that makes dehumanising the opposition that much harder.

Although Balance and others have been doing a good job on Labour (particularly Jacinda) and the Greens over the last few years on this site anyway. I imagine like me they might be a little less radical in real life.

Disclaimer: Other than Chloe, I think the greens come across as a bunch of nutbags, although they did have the balls to suggest a wealth tax. Capital gains tax sounds less like an envy tax though.

jonu
22-02-2024, 10:08 AM
Its a shame these irrelevant side issues of other countries distract from the debate about Gods Own. Not that it matters, there is not a political will to change here as we are still pretty lucky comparatively

I guess, like Hamas you need to get shat on for a long time before you start butchering babies, hope it never happens in NZ. At least we don't have religion to make things worse as the lines being drawn in NZ appear to be financial between the haves and have nots, and that makes dehumanising the opposition that much harder.

Although Balance and others have been doing a good job on Labour (particularly Jacinda) and the Greens over the last few years on this site anyway. I imagine like me they might be a little less radical in real life.

Disclaimer: Other than Chloe, I think the greens come across as a bunch of nutbags, although they did have the balls to suggest a wealth tax. Capital gains tax sounds less like an envy tax though.

Terrible as it is to speak it out loud, we butcher around 40 babies here a day Aaron. Most of the Green MPs are in full support of that. And also in support of a regime that would kill their gay caucus members without blinking.

Balance
22-02-2024, 10:19 AM
Terrible as it is to speak it out loud, we butcher around 40 babies here a day Aaron. Most of the Green MPs are in full support of that. And also in support of a regime that would kill their gay caucus members without blinking.

Exactly - Gays are persecuted, beaten up, abused and murdered in Palestine & some Arab states (well documented) and we have the likes of Swarbrick championing the very authorities doing the persecution.

Sick in the head.

Aaron
22-02-2024, 11:22 AM
I think the LGBT.... people are objecting to the persecution/oppression/bombing of Palestinians by Israel rather than the whole muslim religions objection to homosexuality. I think its nice that they care about people who would stone them to death given the chance, although it seems stupid/suicidal as well.

Christianity could not abide homosexuality or rock music that long ago. And if Jonu is arguing against abortion he might still not like homosexuals but I am hoping he has accepted Rock and Roll.

As far as 40 a day is that 7 days a week? or 14,600 a year. Butchering or mercy killing take your pick. Personally I don't like to get involved in that debate as I can see the pros and cons of both sides and I imagine it is not an easy choice for someone getting an abortion. Something to sweep under the carpet and pretend it doesn't happen.

Personally I have no memories up to the age of about 5yrs old so maybe in cases where the kids are really annoying we could extend the age of legal execution up to about 5yrs of age.

I was trying to debate the growing wealth divide in NZ which Chloe brings up in her opinion piece and is what really concerns me as I am falling on the wrong side of that divide due to my indolence (thanks Logen). Sadly plenty of less important(to me) but more entertaining debates to be had.

jonu
22-02-2024, 01:12 PM
I think the LGBT.... people are objecting to the persecution/oppression/bombing of Palestinians by Israel rather than the whole muslim religions objection to homosexuality. I think its nice that they care about people who would stone them to death given the chance, although it seems stupid/suicidal as well.

Christianity could not abide homosexuality or rock music that long ago. And if Jonu is arguing against abortion he might still not like homosexuals but I am hoping he has accepted Rock and Roll.

As far as 40 a day is that 7 days a week? or 14,600 a year. Butchering or mercy killing take your pick. Personally I don't like to get involved in that debate as I can see the pros and cons of both sides and I imagine it is not an easy choice for someone getting an abortion. Something to sweep under the carpet and pretend it doesn't happen.

Personally I have no memories up to the age of about 5yrs old so maybe in cases where the kids are really annoying we could extend the age of legal execution up to about 5yrs of age.

I was trying to debate the growing wealth divide in NZ which Chloe brings up in her opinion piece and is what really concerns me as I am falling on the wrong side of that divide due to my indolence (thanks Logen). Sadly plenty of less important(to me) but more entertaining debates to be had.

And we wonder why there is no peace in the world. Just look the other way when it gets uncomfortable.

Balance
22-02-2024, 01:24 PM
Same Palestinians supported and endorsed by Swarbrick.

https://www.eriegaynews.com/news/article.php?recordid=202211wfmbrutalpalestinianmur deer

" ...... This is by far the the most explicit admission by the Palestinian Authorities on how they as a state oppress LGBT people and allow the brutalization and killing of LGBT people in Palestinian lands. Rather than telling him that they would protect him, they told him to leave.

He did, and he went to Israel to start the process to seek political asylum in Canada. But before he left he felt a need to say farewell to his family in Palestine. When he did, he was beheaded. This happened on October 5th.

Another reason for his brutal murder was that he wasn't silent about the plight in Palestine for LGBT people who want to be openly LGBT, and he had a community of friends. But building LGBT community in Palestine can be, and is, incredibly dangerous.

In 2019, the Palestinian Authority issued an official statement encouraging members of the public to report on the activities of LGBTQ+ groups in the West Bank."

Blue Skies
22-02-2024, 01:56 PM
Exactly - Gays are persecuted, beaten up, abused and murdered in Palestine & some Arab states (well documented) and we have the likes of Swarbrick championing the very authorities doing the persecution.

Sick in the head.




That is the most ridiculous argument, think about it,

for a start, we still support a nation like the US - & rightly so Imo but -
where they literally execute people in several States,
where they are responsible for imprisoning people without access to lawyers or justice & torture them at Guantanamo Bay,
where all too frequently Law enforcement kill Blacks at things like routine traffic stops,
where theres been more mass shootings than days we've so far had this year, where people bomb abortion clinics,

and where just last week, the Archdiocese of New York - the highest Catholic Church in the US -St Patricks - and Conservative Catholic groups condemned a funeral held for a Transgender person describing it as sacrilegious, degrading, outrageous scandalous & are going to hold a Mass of Redemption to 'cleanse' the church. (read the link attached) .

Just look at the rise of these Christofascist groups in the US, they're scary.
I think there's a lot more tolerance for Gays in the West Bank & Gaza than you realise.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/uneral-for-transgender-activist-at-st-patricks-cathedral-drew-over-1000-mourners-and-church-leaders-scorn
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/cecilia-gentili-funeral-service-condemned-archdiocese-of-new-york/

blackcap
22-02-2024, 02:02 PM
That is the most ridiculous argument, think about it,

for a start, we still support a nation like the US - & rightly so Imo but -
where they literally execute people in several States,


where they are responsible for imprisoning people without access to lawyers or justice & torture them at Guantanamo Bay,
where all too frequently Law enforcement kill Blacks at things like routine traffic stops,
where theres been more mass shootings than days we've so far had this year, where people bomb abortion clinics,

and where just last week, the Archdiocese of New York - the highest Catholic Church in the US -St Patricks - and Conservative Catholic groups condemned a funeral held for a Transgender person describing it as sacrilegious, degrading, outrageous scandalous & are going to hold a Mass of Redemption to 'cleanse' the church. (read the link attached) .


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/uneral-for-transgender-activist-at-st-patricks-cathedral-drew-over-1000-mourners-and-church-leaders-scorn
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/cecilia-gentili-funeral-service-condemned-archdiocese-of-new-york/

Those executed in the states deserve what they get. Think of what they did to their victims. Nothing wrong with the death penalty for egregious acts of murder. Unlike in Hamas territory, where you get killed for being a homo.

Law enforcement killings, the proportions is the same, black on white, white on black, black on black. Its not good but it happens from time to time. There is no special persecution of blacks. They do more crime, they do more time sure, but white police to not go out to kill black people as a rule. Law enforcement is tough business. Stop having a sook BS.

Aaron
22-02-2024, 02:38 PM
And we wonder why there is no peace in the world. Just look the other way when it gets uncomfortable.

Abortion is not nice but it is not my business what others do as long as they are not harming "anyone". The anyone is in commas as obviously the fetus does not come out alive.

Or are you talking about Palestine? not much I can do from here. If I cared enough I would get a gun and go and fight for the side I believed in, but based on history war tends to be a big waste of life and resources. Good for inflation though so Adrian would approve.

That is why Jesus and Muhammad were so good, proposing to live in peace and do away with an eye for an eye bs. Sad that message isn't getting through, although the jews don't believe Jesus is the son of god so maybe they don't care about that sort of stuff.

And while we are all over the place on bloodshed and horrible things happening IMO the Christchurch shooter should not be breathing if we had a just society. Sort of goes against the peace and love stuff I just wrote but there is a limit. There must be a balance between justice and mercy. I would give the Chch shooter as much mercy as he gave all the people he killed. (Sorry additional rant from Blue Skies post about execution in the US)

Daytr
22-02-2024, 02:38 PM
And why is Chloe Swarbrick not leading a rally to protest against how the LGBT community in the Middle East, especially in Gaza, is being prosecuted and killed by their Muslim societies?

Hypocrisy of the highest order - Chloe is nothing but a sham and a fraud.

"From the river to the sea, Chloe is but a demented screaming banshee."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/shaneel-lal-soul-crushing-plight-of-gazas-queer-people/ANSMFS6WJVBV7CJI7V36OQGZ2E/

“Queer Palestinians are defying the old trope that queer people do not exist in Gaza with their fight not only to live but also to be remembered.”

Shame on Swarbrick. Shame.

https://plainsight.nz/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Capture.jpg

To be inclusive she would need to criticize the entire Muslim World, most of middle America and probably 50% or so of the Western World, including quite a few on here.

Defending human rights for Palestinians to have a their homes back, to live freely & have a political voice is not excluded due to their religious or cultural beliefs whether you agree with them or not.

It certainly doesn't give Israel the right to confiscate Palestinian territory which Israel has been doing for decades.

Its just a ridiculous statement, just because Chloe is part of the LGBT community, unlike you she doesn't let it define her in totality. She can be opposed to the treatment of LGBT but still defend other rights, without contradiction. Unlike...

Apparently Luxon is a happy clappy Christian who is opposed to abortion, but he can turn his conscious on & off on a political whim.

Balance
26-02-2024, 06:00 PM
So ex-Golriz, Swarbrick's mate, was on a one woman crime spree without restraint.

What's the old saying about 'birds of a feather flock together?'

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350192964/police-set-lay-additional-charge-against-former-green-mp-golriz-ghahraman

Former Green MP Golriz Ghahraman is set to face an additional charge, her lawyer confirmed to Stuff on Monday.

Police previously announced that they had laid charges against a 43-year-old woman following a shoplifting investigation.

The former Green MP, whose occupation is listed as a barrister on court documents, was set to appear at the Auckland District Court on Wednesday, however she’s now set to appear on March 20, her lawyer Annabel Cresswell told Stuff.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/WorytGWOZ1jBq-92_0KprW5o-Ro=/1440x960/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/DESSTFIGFBD6LDYAOT2XY3B2UQ.jpg

Balance
27-02-2024, 12:51 PM
So Golriz was at it too in Newmarket with her itchy fingers.

Will be more out there to Goldriz’s crime spree :

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/510275/golriz-ghahraman-accused-of-shoplifting-from-third-store

The spokesperson said the new charge relates to an incident in Newmarket on 22 December and was reported to police in late January.

The charge sheet shows Ghahraman is accused of stealing a navy cardigan valued at $389 from Standard Issue

Getty
27-02-2024, 06:40 PM
Ooh, Goldritz was being extra naughty.

Not the shades of her politics green and red for her but navy!

Ah well, she was all at sea.

Balance
27-02-2024, 07:33 PM
Ooh, Goldritz was being extra naughty.

Not the shades of her politics green and red for her but navy!

Ah well, she was all at sea.

Good catch, Getty!

nztx
28-02-2024, 01:21 AM
So Golriz was at it too in Newmarket with her itchy fingers.

Will be more out there to Goldriz’s crime spree :

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/510275/golriz-ghahraman-accused-of-shoplifting-from-third-store

The spokesperson said the new charge relates to an incident in Newmarket on 22 December and was reported to police in late January.

The charge sheet shows Ghahraman is accused of stealing a navy cardigan valued at $389 from Standard Issue


If no-one in the Green camp were awake to what was going on .. then what were they up to, to have missed it ? ;)


"Oh look - my Green Darlings - All these fancy new rags just happened to fall off the rack at me as I was walking past .. probably cost a penny or two if I didn't happen to be walking by" ;)


"Oh dear - My Green Darlings - I think I need a good Barrister .. Hang on a moment I think I still am one" ;)

Ggcc
28-02-2024, 07:20 AM
If no-one in the Green camp were awake to what was going on .. then what were they up to, to have missed it ? ;)


"Oh look - my Green Darlings - All these fancy new rags just happened to fall off the rack at me as I was walking past .. probably cost a penny or two if I didn't happen to be walking by" ;)


"Oh dear - My Green Darlings - I think I need a good Barrister .. Hang on a moment I think I still am one" ;)

Don't you love comments like this. It shows her true character.

In a statement, she said stress relating to her work had led her to "act in ways that are completely out of character. I am not trying to excuse my actions, but I do want to explain them".

I want to tell you, I did what I did, because.

It would have been better for her to say "I don't know why I did what I did, but I face up to the consequences as it was a crime I did. Sorry to those businesses and people affected by my poor judgement."

Another rotten thing to do and to blame it on mental health. My god we have all had bad mental health days, it doesn't give a green light for bad behaviour.

Balance
28-02-2024, 07:36 AM
Don't you love comments like this. It shows her true character.

In a statement, she said stress relating to her work had led her to "act in ways that are completely out of character. I am not trying to excuse my actions, but I do want to explain them".

I want to tell you, I did what I did, because.

It would have been better for her to say "I don't know why I did what I did, but I face up to the consequences as it was a crime I did. Sorry to those businesses and people affected by my poor judgement."

Another rotten thing to do and to blame it on mental health. My god we have all had bad mental health days, it doesn't give a green light for bad behaviour.

If it is really really mental health, all sympathies to her and let's hope she gets proper treatment and will become whole again in future.

Likewise, Kiri Allan who pleaded mental health for her problems.

Which of course begs the questions :

1. What TF were they doing in Parliament making decisions impacting on the welfare and well being of all NZers and representing their constituents when they were mentally unsound?

2. Where TF were their colleagues, mentors, leaders and overseers? Are they so blind and so oblivious to what was going on with their mental health cases that they could not see what was happening?

In both cases, they are not fit to be in Parliament.

FXXK them.

dln
28-02-2024, 07:52 AM
Same reason you're still posting here, I imagine ...

Balance
28-02-2024, 08:01 AM
Same reason you're still posting here, I imagine ...

Imagination of a deluded Labour loser.

ynot
28-02-2024, 09:25 AM
If it is really really mental health, all sympathies to her and let's hope she gets proper treatment and will become whole again in future.

Likewise, Kiri Allan who pleaded mental health for her problems.

Which of course begs the questions :

1. What TF were they doing in Parliament making decisions impacting on the welfare and well being of all NZers and representing their constituents when they were mentally unsound?

2. Where TF were their colleagues, mentors, leaders and overseers? Are they so blind and so oblivious to what was going on with their mental health cases that they could not see what was happening?

In both cases, they are not fit to be in Parliament.

FXXK them.

Bloody good question. Its been a tough lesson to learn but this caliber of MP should not reside in government.

mistaTea
28-02-2024, 09:25 AM
If it is really really mental health, all sympathies to her and let's hope she gets proper treatment and will become whole again in future.



I mean, it is looking more and more like Golriz is just a thief.

No more mentally ill than anyone else who steals. Four charges now, but there will be a bunch of other things she has stolen that we will never know about.

If Golriz is mentally ill, then maybe we need to reopen all of the other cases of shoplifting so that we can wrap all of those thieves up with love and support!

We have to be a fair society :t_up:

Or are you only a dirty thief if you are not high profile?

Ggcc
28-02-2024, 12:25 PM
If it is really really mental health, all sympathies to her and let's hope she gets proper treatment and will become whole again in future.

Likewise, Kiri Allan who pleaded mental health for her problems.

Which of course begs the questions :

1. What TF were they doing in Parliament making decisions impacting on the welfare and well being of all NZers and representing their constituents when they were mentally unsound?

2. Where TF were their colleagues, mentors, leaders and overseers? Are they so blind and so oblivious to what was going on with their mental health cases that they could not see what was happening?

In both cases, they are not fit to be in Parliament.

FXXK them.
None of these two politicians have mental health conditions. They are just going through a tough part in their life. There is not a poster who would say their life has been fine and dandy up till now and they never had to struggle to get what they wanted. Kiri Allen had a relationship breakdown...... Well Fxxk me who hasn't at least once their life and the other, stealing and blaming it on mental health issues is just plain fxxked, unless she has been diagnosed kleptomaniac and you would admit that.

Too many people blaming it on something it isn't to get sympathy for getting caught. As you mentioned where were their colleagues, mentors, leaders and overseers. These ladies are just plain lying. Mental health has become the new type of fashion.

I feel that these ladies caught don't actually have problems with their mental health they, have a problem of too much privilege.

Also for the record it is not just the ladies that suffer with issues, we all know Todd Mullar had it and he quit, he didn't go and steal, nor did he drive home intoxicated and abuse his power.

I had a Maori friend who is a social worker. He told me that loads of people are given options, but they don't take those options that are given to them and blame then they blame others for their problems and how they got to where they are. His words were "they stay in the story and don't get out and some can't get out". I mentioned to him that sounds like the race debate. He was silent after that.