More Green's Bull Shi!

[whatsup]

So the Greens have announced that they will limit annual rent increases to 3% , it just shows you how much they understand about commercial life.
I doubt that even the reddest/maddest members of the Labour Party will vote for this as imo they are responsible for the staggering levels of inflation over the last few years and cannot expect landlords to foot the bill for that .

[JBmurc]

Price controls ...yeah that always works ... do these greens know any history of their commie mates...and what happen to those nations ?

[thegreatestben]

I'm already getting smashed for being a landlord and I'd like to think I'm one of the good ones. I've got nowhere to go for rent increases, already top of the market (brand new 3 beddies) and this would just be the water level rising even further above my head. This policy is lunancy for a multitude of reasons but for me the main thing is there's no regard for Landlord's who are already providing a high quality and necessary service.

[nztx]

The economics of even having Residential Rentals is already questionable with current
bank deposit rates being paid by the banks, before this crock of Green BS came along :)

6% offered by banks ; no Rental BS, No Tenancy BS , No moron Govt interference , no Dramas

Similarly with well placed equity investments - choose the right companies and imputation credits
mean tax paid by the company.

The right commercial investment with good tenancy mix - no raft of Residential BS attached

Interesting choices - a good number of RR investors will be going further backwards on Interest
non deductibility, mortgage interest hikes, no depreciation claims, spiralling Tenancy crap, rent
increase limitation garbage, dreamt up rental warrant of fitness (same idiot Green elves in another
lightbulb moment) .. as it is

The harder the Rent price inflicted on the tenants, the more likely the level of failure
and who wears those losses with even higher chances of low or no recovery ?

Who would want to be in the Residential Rental market now ?

Who at the grassroots paying end of things is ultimately going to be badly screwed over
courtesy of this moron political meddling ? ;)

What is going to take for Politicians to wake up to the fact that their targeted audience
is not the wealthy cash rich target they thought and they instead are knifing the most
vulnerable, whilst only providing more incentive for those still in the market to invest
elsewhere on signs of deeper Govt plundering likely? :)

[blackcap]

The economics of even having Residential Rentals is already questionable with current
bank deposit rates being paid by the banks, before this crock of Green BS came along :)

6% offered by banks ; no Rental BS, No Tenancy BS , No moron Govt interference , no Dramas

Similarly with well placed equity investments - choose the right companies and imputation credits
mean tax paid by the company.

The right commercial investment with good tenancy mix - no raft of Residential BS attached

Interesting choices - a good number of RR investors will be going further backwards on Interest
non deductibility, no depreciation claims, Tenancy crap, rent increase garbage .. as it is

Who would want to be in the Residential Rental market now ?

Who at the grassroots paying end of things is ultimately going to be badly screwed over
courtesy of this moron political meddling ? ;)

You list a good many reasons why we are looking at divesting our rentals. Have a few but the hassle and return, really is not worth it anymore. Time to sell.

[whatsup]

I'm already getting smashed for being a landlord and I'd like to think I'm one of the good ones. I've got nowhere to go for rent increases, already top of the market (brand new 3 beddies) and this would just be the water level rising even further above my head. This policy is lunancy for a multitude of reasons but for me the main thing is there's no regard for Landlord's who are already providing a high quality and necessary service.

Can you rent your property out for only 1 year , this way you stay in control ?

[dobby41]

Can you rent your property out for only 1 year , this way you stay in control ?

No - fixed terms automatically roll to periodic.
Besides the Greens rule means that new tenants only pay 3% (or whatever the rule (1% less than wage growth, inflation, 3% whichever is lower)) more than previous tenant.

I was in Porto a few years back (2019) and they had just come off rent price controls - a huge amount of backed-up maintenance underway.
Some places were a real mess as maintenance was dropped to make ends meet.
Not a good idea!

[thegreatestben]

It really is hard because I won't take any chances on tenants and I'm now very very selective about who I will offer any form of tenancy to. I will scope out people via facebook and linkedin etc to see if there's anything of concern before I even respond to them. Many of those who can afford top end of market rates are being supported by MSD, but you look at them and they've got gang member mates or heaps of photo's of pissups, smoking/vaping inside etc, no thanks.

At least if you have some options to deal with a problem you might give someone a chance, after doing that once I will never do it again. I always hoped the houses would be a good option for would be FHB's who are on their journey to owning their own home. Sadly I get pretty much zero enquiry from this group because they don't exist! They're either staying with family while they save or they've gone to AUS or UK/Europe.

[JBmurc]

My only Res rental I sold year after purchase .. and even though it was renting at 10% gross yield , lending rates were like 7%+ and after all the work the property needed and costs I was happy to take the Cap gain and move on ... recent years of course you had buying lining up for 4-6% gross returns ... all about Cap gain I guess .. still that hasn't been going well last year

I like Commercial Property in good location with higher yield - longer term fixed lease really only NZ property ...outside a holiday crib etc

[thegreatestben]

Yeah am going to see how the election goes, had them 1 year now. 5 year brightline, but that could come down under national/act, likely around the 2 year mark.

See what prices and interest rates do. Topping them up at the moment but don’t have any debt on personal home so it’s not all bad.

[whatsup]

My family upgraded their rentals at considerable cost, insulation, heat pumps etc but the heat pumps / air con were never used due to the power costs, so sometimes the tenants dont help themselves and all of the Green B S wont change that !!

[nztx]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-green-party-lays-out-key-policies-in-manifesto-focused-on-people-nature-and-climate/HIBQ2CH5DVCLRANIGL2L2LI5MU/

Election 2023: Green Party lays out key policies in manifesto focused on ‘people, nature and climate’



It also covers recent policy announcements around reducing income inequality, along with introducing rent controls - which Labour has already ruled out - and clearing the social housing waitlist, with a commitment to build 35,000 public homes.

What ? - so Labour didn't like the previous instalment of Green Bullsh&t earlier ? ;)

"Tax The Mega Rich" - bound to go down well with Labour as well who know they are being lined for a boot up their backsides already on their non performance on just about all they touched over 5.5 years, so will be being very careful not to cross the line :)

It seems only the Green Fools are prepared to expose their silly little leprechaun bottom of the garden pie in the sky list of shallow and unworkable dreams, likely to go nowhere and evaporate after October ;)




“Everyone in Aotearoa will have what they need to have kai on the table, a safe place to call home and live a good life - and we will tax the mega-rich to pay for it,” she said.


A safe place and live a good life


When was the last time these Green halfwits took a look outside on what is happening in the real world while they are warming seats in Beehive spinning little green feel-goods and fairy tales ? ;)

[nztx]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-green-party-agm-james-shaw-says-national-act-will-reverse-climate-change-progress/Y5XPK2MY2RFRVK2WIBQVVK5MIU/

Green Party AGM, James Shaw says National, Act will reverse climate change progress

Poor James - Backwards is where things have been going with involvement of your own lot of retards resident at the Beehive ;)

The shallow excuse seen for little action that has been seen is a laughing stock among larger nations and hasn't done too much for larger polluters around the globe who have just continued on their merry way unchanged :)

The net reciprients globally of Carbon Scam Credits thank your for your generosity and support for the idiot schemes which have seen large paydays hit their bank accounts ;)

[Getty]

Very reassuring to see Marama on Q & A this morning.

She informs us that if Winz treats people with dignity, and Kainga Ora reassures them they will be housed, then crime will drop.

Your wrap around services are lovely Marama, but what if l wear my red jersey into MacDonalds?

Will the Powers that be come and wrap themselves around me, leaving me feeling less than rapt?

[nztx]

Very reassuring to see Marama on Q & A this morning.

She informs us that if Winz treats people with dignity, and Kainga Ora reassures them they will be housed, then crime will drop.

Your wrap around services are lovely Marama, but what if l wear my red jersey into MacDonalds?

Will the Powers that be come and wrap themselves around me, leaving me feeling less than rapt?


She probably think all the bikie crew wanna come eat Green kai with her .. More "Do you you who I am" needed
Marama .. watch out for fast moving motorbikes and take James with you so he doesn't feel lonely ;)

[Getty]

Now, maternal Marama wants to bring in 5000 refugees by 2025.

Haven't you been watching the news Marama?

Socialist France ain't faring too well, as it burns in reward for its largesse and generosity in such matters.

[stoploss]

Now, maternal Marama wants to bring in 5000 refugees by 2025.

Haven't you been watching the news Marama?

Socialist France ain't faring too well, as it burns in reward for its largesse and generosity in such matters.
Another 5000 in motels we can’t afford it .

[whatsup]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-green-party-lays-out-key-policies-in-manifesto-focused-on-people-nature-and-climate/HIBQ2CH5DVCLRANIGL2L2LI5MU/

Election 2023: Green Party lays out key policies in manifesto focused on ‘people, nature and climate’




What ? - so Labour didn't like the previous instalment of Green Bullsh&t earlier ? ;)

"Tax The Mega Rich" - bound to go down well with Labour as well who know they are being lined for a boot up their backsides already on their non performance on just about all they touched over 5.5 years, so will be being very careful not to cross the line :)

It seems only the Green Fools are prepared to expose their silly little leprechaun bottom of the garden pie in the sky list of shallow and unworkable dreams, likely to go nowhere and evaporate after October ;)






A safe place and live a good life


When was the last time these Green halfwits took a look outside on what is happening in the real world while they are warming seats in Beehive spinning little green feel-goods and fairy tales ? ;)

Define for me , Mega Rich ?

[causecelebre]

Some other interesting GP policies:

Extra week off a year
Extra time off for Tangihunga and other cultural needs
Citizenship for all Maori even if born overseas and parents not citizens

[Daytr]

My family upgraded their rentals at considerable cost, insulation, heat pumps etc but the heat pumps / air con were never used due to the power costs, so sometimes the tenants dont help themselves and all of the Green B S wont change that !!

Let me get this straight.
You are blaming tenants for not being able to afford to keep their house warm?
You also make it quite clear that providing tenants with a warm healthy home was quite an inconvenience.
You are precisely the reason why legislation is required to protect tenants.

[iceman]

Let me get this straight.
You are blaming tenants for not being able to afford to keep their house warm?
You also make it quite clear that providing tenants with a warm healthy home was quite an inconvenience.
You are precisely the reason why legislation is required to protect tenants.

What a load of nonsense. whatsup said his family did all what was required by the legislation and it achieve diddly squat except more costs and increased rents. Most landlords are in the same situation.

[ValueNZ]

What a load of nonsense. whatsup said his family did all what was required by the legislation and it achieve diddly squat except more costs and increased rents. Most landlords are in the same situation.
More cost for landlords which means higher rent and less consumer choice. It's a feel good activity really.

[whatsup]

Let me get this straight.
You are blaming tenants for not being able to afford to keep their house warm?
You also make it quite clear that providing tenants with a warm healthy home was quite an inconvenience.
You are precisely the reason why legislation is required to protect tenants.

No u r sooooo wrong, the property has been totally upgraded, new kitchen, bath rooms, laundry, re carpeted, insulated, painted, new lighting, upgrades switch board, new roof, spouting , heat pump but the tenants wanted to save as much as they could for their own home ( which I totally go along with ) so cut back on power use, replaced the light bulbs with the lowwest wattage they could find, did not ever use the heat pump and turned off the hotwater cylinder every two days in order to save money so again tell me where I went wrong, they even had a cat when they were not supposed to ( cats cost money, food , vets, vaccinations etc !!!!!!!) and to boot they have had to replace the carpet in one bedroom- less than 2 years old due to cats pee at the owners expense after they denied that it was their cat

[Daytr]

No u r sooooo wrong, the property has been totally upgraded, new kitchen, bath rooms, laundry, re carpeted, insulated, painted, new lighting, upgrades switch board, new roof, spouting , heat pump but the tenants wanted to save as much as they could for their own home ( which I totally go along with ) so cut back on power use, replaced the light bulbs with the lowwest wattage they could find, did not ever use the heat pump and turned off the hotwater cylinder every two days in order to save money so again tell me where I went wrong, they even had a cat when they were not supposed to ( cats cost money, food , vets, vaccinations etc !!!!!!! and to boot they have had to replace the carpet in one bedroom due to cats pee at the owners expense after they denied that it was their cat

Very good whatsupp, you did nothing wrong, it was just they way it was conveyed in your first post.

Most tenants I am sure are enjoying warmer healthier homes.

Iceman, in average landlords made a capital gain of $225k per investment property in one year. But they still want to recoup more out of tenants just for providing what most people would consider the bare minimum. That's called out & out greed.
Obviously not all landlords are like this but anyone complaining about providing tge basics whilst making hundreds of thousands of dollars needs to have a serious look at themselves.

[thegreatestben]

It is hard for good landlords, all landlords are tarred with the same brush. I don't know where my hundred's of thousands are? I'm topping up two new builds $1000 a month each!

[whatsup]

Very good whatsupp, you did nothing wrong, it was just they way it was conveyed in your first post.

Most tenants I am sure are enjoying warmer healthier homes.

Iceman, in average landlords made a capital gain of $225k per investment property in one year. But they still want to recoup more out of tenants just for providing what most people would consider the bare minimum. That's called out & out greed.
Obviously not all landlords are like this but anyone complaining about providing tge basics whilst making hundreds of thousands of dollars needs to have a serious look at themselves.

The trouble is " the left is a lie " and the socialists know this but will not accept the truth, imo the only way out of the poverty trap is,
1) education.
2) work as many jobs as you can 2-3 if possible a week while you can.
3) spend your money very very wisely, ask yourself do I really really need this?
3) dont get married too young.
4) make sure you marry the " right " person .
5)when you do get married only have a couple of children.
6) look after your families health ( your greatest asset )
There are many more but you can add to them yourself.

[Daytr]

It is hard for good landlords, all landlords are tarred with the same brush. I don't know where my hundred's of thousands are? I'm topping up two new builds $1000 a month each!

Really! Hells bells you surely not saying that you have an investment that you actually have to pay something towards.... What is the world coming to!

[thegreatestben]

I also developed them - including being on the tools and owned the land as my personal home for 10 years before I developed.

[iceman]

Iceman, in average landlords made a capital gain of $225k per investment property in one year. But they still want to recoup more out of tenants just for providing what most people would consider the bare minimum. That's called out & out greed.
Obviously not all landlords are like this but anyone complaining about providing tge basics whilst making hundreds of thousands of dollars needs to have a serious look at themselves.

You only make capital gain if you sell at prices higher than you bought. Most residential landlords are playing the long game. None average anywhere near $225k capital gains per year for a typical residential rental property in NZ. If you’re referring to “paper gains” during the COVID madness in 2021, then you should acknowledge the very significant “losses” since then.
For long term residential investors, those imaginary gains and losses have no effect as they haven’t sold.

[Daytr]

You only make capital gain if you sell at prices higher than you bought. Most residential landlords are playing the long game. None average anywhere near $225k capital gains per year for a typical residential rental property in NZ. If you’re referring to “paper gains” during the COVID madness in 2021, then you should acknowledge the very significant “losses” since then.
For long term residential investors, those imaginary gains and losses have no effect as they haven’t sold.

OK take a longer view. What have landlords made in the last 10 years even despite the recent pull back? 20 years?
Nothing wrong with property investors making a profit but don't whinge about the costs of making rentals liveable.

[whatsup]

As the great Martin Crow said only weeds grow under tall poppies.

[nztx]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132508176/james-shaw-promises-rewards-for-private-conservation-projects-as-greens-hui-kicks-off

James Shaw promises rewards for private conservation projects, as Greens' hui kicks off


James dream up some more feel good conservation Phewy ;)

How does the conservation in Green Seat feel after October, pal ? ;)

Legs wobbling, falling off or more likely to get kicked off ? ;)

[causecelebre]

Form the Greens Manifesto "The Time is Now", apparently honouring the Treaty of Waitangi means to:

Facilitate the return of whenua that was wrongfully alienated from tangata whenua,including through exploring a right of first refusal process that enables the return of private land to iwi, hapū and whānau at point of sale.

F&*k me, these nutters have lost the plot completely

[Daytr]

As the great Martin Crow said only weeds grow under tall poppies.

The great man also gave back to the game and was a generous soul. Not your typical landlord profile really is it? Apologies to all those landlords that do the right thing and don't whinge about having to do it.

[whatsup]

The great man also gave back to the game and was a generous soul. Not your typical landlord profile really is it? Apologies to all those landlords that do the right thing and don't whinge about having to do it.

Dayt, I really hope that you give all of your D Ter profits to charity !

[Daytr]

Dayt, I really hope that you give all of your D Ter profits to charity !

I give what I can in donations, but more valuable to me is my time that I put into various charities & community groups, including chairing a charity for 5 years.

However to not be greedy doesn't mean you have to give all your money away.

[Getty]

So the Greens have had to train some of their party volunteers in de escalation, while on the campaign trail.

An acknowledgement their policies are loony and unpopular?

Or just too many cry babies?

[nztx]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300958636/greens-promise-light-rail-for-auckland-christchurch-and-wellington

Greens promise light rail for Auckland, Christchurch and Wellington



The Green Party promising light rail in New Zealand’s three biggest cities, as party of the party’s Climate-Safe Comminutes Plan.

Green Party co-leader James Shaw said light rail would be prioritised in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch, during an announcement in Auckland on Sunday morning.

The party would also improve transport for buses, pedestrians and cyclists, “instead of building new motorways that will instantly become clogged with gridlock and pollution”.


Show us the money - Watermelons ;)

Robbo has an empty tin & no clue and the Green mob will likely never be in any position to promise anything ;)

Jimmy's posturing and pouting worthless dreams again a cute performance to replace Labour's performing clown
now fresh out of ideas and staring down the barrel in being railroaded out in less than 2 months time ;)

[Logen Ninefingers]

Cow obsessed, farmer hating Greenpeace activists brought their insanity to Parliament today.

To get an idea of the political ethos (hint: she really loves Karl Marx) of ‘lead campaigner’ Cristine Rose, here’s a link to one of her articles -

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2021/04/11/majestic-equality-inequality-and-the-living-wage/

————

Greenpeace activists disrupted Parliament

‘A group of four were taken from the public gallery, and questioned by parliamentary security, after throwing banners into the debating chamber.

The group said they were frustrated about climate change. The group were young, men and women, who appeared to be in their 20s.

Greenpeace climate and agriculture lead campaigner Christine Rose confirmed the group were Greenpeace-associated, saying the group dropped three banners "to remind all MPs of the urgent need to take action on climate crisis because we have too many cows".

"Normally the close of Parliament is a celebration of things the Government has achieved, but there is nothing to celebrate."

Rose said politicians needed to "stop being gutless".

Asked if they were concerned about potential consequences of the group's actions, such as receiving temporary bans from Parliament, Rose said "we take what we do very seriously".

"Those people are taking risks but the risks from climate crisis are so severe we feel compelled to act."’

[Logen Ninefingers]

Parliament is breaking down into a lawless mess, mirroring NZ society. Hard on the heels of Rawiri Waititi’s heinous contempt for standing orders, now the Greens thumb their noses at Parliament as well….

————

MP shared photo with Greenpeace - against the rules

‘Greenpeace is sharing a photo of its protesters, which appears to have been taken by an MP in the debating chamber.

ACT leader David Seymour called for Speaker Adrian Rurawhe to investigate how Greenpeace got hold of a photo from the debating chamber, just minutes after their protesters were escorted from Parliament.

Seymour said an MP sharing a photo of a protest like this would be contempt of Parliament.

A Green Party spokesperson said nobody from the Greens shared the photo, or collaborated with Greenpeace.

But the photo appears to have come from the corner where the Green, ACT and independent MPs sit.

Outgoing Green MP Eugenie Sage was also filmed, on Parliament TV, holding her phone up.

Stuff has asked Sage about the incident. She has not responded.’

[nztx]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-insults-fly-in-first-finance-debate-between-nicola-willis-and-grant-robertson/WBGP2KRAMJF4RH6YOIJTXHJNVU/



The most brutal barb came from Act leader David Seymour to the Green Party’s Julie Anne Genter, who was touting her party’s costed wealth tax plan.

“Julie Anne, I wouldn’t trust you to run the economy of Venezuela let alone New Zealand,” Seymour said. The leftist government of Venezuela has struggled with hyperinflation.



Seymour attacked Genter after she made the point that many other countries had capital gains and wealth taxes.

“I’m glad Kate Sheppard never listened to that logic,” Seymour said, adding that Sheppard might have been an Act voter.

“If we had taxed prosperity, all of Julie Anne’s mates would have won the Cold War,” Seymour said.


VG - Seymour .. Keep on calling out the dozey Green excuses for Policy which are as dumb as a Bag of Hammers ;)

(likely after all the pixies in the bottom of the garden have hit themselves over the head with the hammers multiple times to see if the stars appear in other colours after earlier tries)

[Logen Ninefingers]

I’d actually support protecting 30% of our ocean, but the issue is that Greens don’t stop there….they quickly devolve into a load of ‘delivering for maori’ clap-trap including a meaty $100 million ‘Moana Fund’ for iwi and hapu to feast upon in pursuit of ‘delivering on marine conservation priorities’.

In all honestly, the Green Party might just as well change their name to Te Pati Maori, and probably would if the name was not already taken.

A vote for Labour or the Greens or Te Pati Maori is a vote for a radical LABGREETEPATI government.

————

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300967796/greens-propose-healthy-ocean-act-independent-commission-to-protect-oceans

Greens propose Healthy Ocean Act, independent commission to protect oceans

14:28, Sep 10 2023

‘The Green Party says it will set a legally binding target to protect 30% of the ocean by 2030 – and lobby to get the Oceans and Fisheries ministerial role to make it happen.

If part of the next government, the Greens would introduce legislation to create an Ocean Commission in the first 100 days, and pass a Healthy Ocean Act in the next three years.

The independent Ocean Commission would work with iwi, hapū, councils, communities, and the public to advise the government, similar to how the Climate Change Commission advises on climate matters.

The advice would feed into the Health Ocean Act, to create a network of marine protected areas covering at least 30% of the ocean, and uphold te Tiriti o Waitangi.

A $100 million Moana Fund would support iwi and hapū to deliver on marine conservation priorities most significant to their exercise of kaitiakitanga.’

[iceman]

I’d actually support protecting 30% of our ocean, but the issue is that Greens don’t stop there….they quickly devolve into a load of ‘delivering for maori’ clap-trap including a meaty $100 million ‘Moana Fund’ for iwi and hapu to feast upon in pursuit of ‘delivering on marine conservation priorities’.

In all honestly, the Green Party might just as well change their name to Te Pati Maori, and probably would if the name was not already taken.

A vote for Labour or the Greens or Te Pati Maori is a vote for a radical LABGREETEPATI government.

————

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300967796/greens-propose-healthy-ocean-act-independent-commission-to-protect-oceans

Greens propose Healthy Ocean Act, independent commission to protect oceans

14:28, Sep 10 2023

‘The Green Party says it will set a legally binding target to protect 30% of the ocean by 2030 – and lobby to get the Oceans and Fisheries ministerial role to make it happen.

If part of the next government, the Greens would introduce legislation to create an Ocean Commission in the first 100 days, and pass a Healthy Ocean Act in the next three years.

The independent Ocean Commission would work with iwi, hapū, councils, communities, and the public to advise the government, similar to how the Climate Change Commission advises on climate matters.

The advice would feed into the Health Ocean Act, to create a network of marine protected areas covering at least 30% of the ocean, and uphold te Tiriti o Waitangi.

A $100 million Moana Fund would support iwi and hapū to deliver on marine conservation priorities most significant to their exercise of kaitiakitanga.’

This is crazy stuff from the Greens, yet again.

[Logen Ninefingers]

This is crazy stuff from the Greens, yet again.

Chipkins wants Labour-leaning voters to think there’s absolutely no issue with his two potential coalition partners, when blind Freddy can see that both outfits have morphed into a seething hotbed of radicalism.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The problems with a wealth tax....

https://www.nzinitiative.org.nz/reports-and-media/opinion/the-case-against-a-predatory-wealth-tax/

THE CASE AGAINST A PREDATORY WEALTH TAX

Dr Bryce Wilkinson NZ Herald 22 June, 2023

'The Green Party’s proposed wealth tax plays to greed and envy. It blithely proposes that everyone can be lifted out of poverty by imposing a heavy wealth tax on a mere 0.7% of the population.

What the supposed 0.7% think about that is of no consequence. Their views are apparently of zero value.

But why seek to fund the policy out of such a discriminatory tax? Why not fund it out of an increase in general taxation. A civil society can agree to that without predating on the very, very rich.

It seems as if the philosophy behind the wealth tax proposal is that it is fine for a political majority to tax or otherwise take property from a minority without compensation or consent. But such a philosophy is uncivil, with likely unintended consequences.

One of the unintended consequences is that the very, very rich and their capital are internationally mobile. They do not have to stay and be fleeced.

Taxing capital inevitably reduces its availability. That affects everyone. Less capital per worker means less productivity per worker. That means lower wages relative to prices.

That is why taxing capital is not a free lunch for workers, or anyone else.

The venerable benefit principle of taxation is not predatory. Under this principle, taxes are levied on those who will benefit from the spending their taxes fund. That does not preclude taxation by general consent to help those most in need, just as it does not preclude charitable donations from rich and poor alike.

Under the benefit principle it is the benefit as assessed by those who pay that tax that counts. To seek their general consent respects their human dignity. Predation does not.

One problem with proposing a tax on the basis that it will only hurt a small minority is that once in place it is easy to increase the scope of the tax. The Green Party’s assertion that its tax will only affect 0.7% looks problematic, right from the outset.

Figures obtained from Statistics New Zealand show that over 8% of two-person households over the age of 65 have net assets in excess of $4 million. What then is the basis for asserting that it will only affect 0.7%?

Moreover, it seems that the proposed 1.5% annual wealth tax on trusts would apply to the first dollar of such wealth, not just to amounts above $4 million.

The following illustrative example shows how penal the Green Party’s proposal is in principle towards retirement savings.

People build retirement savings out of tax-paid income. They pay tax again each year on the income from that saving. When they spend those savings after retiring, they pay GST on that spending. (Any increase in the rate of GST is essentially a wealth tax on retirement savings.)

To these three layers of tax, the Green Party would add a fourth, at a very penal rate.

Suppose someone holds their retirement savings in a government bond portfolio worth $1 million and that the wealth tax will apply to this portfolio. Suppose it earns 5% a year. That gives a modest taxable income of $50,000. If that is the person’s only taxable income, income tax would take $6,800 under the Green’s party’s proposed tax rates. Now add the wealth tax at 2.5%. It would take half of the $50,000. The sum of these two taxes is $31,800 which is 64% of pre-tax income.

This is still not the full picture. Suppose inflation is 2% pa. This is effectively a 2% tax on bond holders. It reduces the purchasing power of a $1 million bond portfolio by $20,000 in a year. That loss is the government’s gain. The sum of these three taxes is now $51,800 a year – over 100% of taxable income.

Now add GST at 15% to the equation. If the individual spends $40,000 a year (GST exclusive) on consumer purchases and household maintenance, the GST component adds $6,000, taking GST-inclusive spending to $46,000.

The upshot is that funding GST-exclusive spending of $40,000 costs this person $97,800 in the first year. They have to sell bonds each year to get the cash to pay the taxes, and inflation reduces the purchasing power of what is not sold. This person has no bond portfolio left from age 80 if they retire at age 65.

How might the Green Party respond to such critique? It might suggest deferring the wealth tax for cash flow reasons.

But government would have to charge interest at a penal rate on the deferred taxes. Otherwise, no one would pay the tax and the Green Party would not get the $12 billion of revenue it wants in its first year.

Another response must be that it would only tax the very, very rich. That might be the unworthy intention, but it is unlikely to be the reality even at the outset, yet alone in the fulness of time.

The bottom line is that sound tax principles are important. If government wants more revenue, raising it by general taxation should be the default option.'

[Logen Ninefingers]

"Tune in to OneNews tomorrow where the Greens will have a big new policy release", says Maiki Sherman on the telly.

They want to increase the annual leave entitlement from 4 weeks...to more than that. Tune in tomorrow for details.

Should do wonders for our productivity figures!

[nztx]

"Tune in to OneNews tomorrow where the Greens will have a big new policy release", says Maiki Sherman on the telly.

They want to increase the annual leave entitlement from 4 weeks...to more than that. Tune in tomorrow for details.

Should do wonders for our productivity figures!


Let them keep up pushing out their portfolio of worthless never never fairy tale dreams .. every vote they con out from those falling off the Labour bandwagon will be a wasted effort as the Lab/Green/Tepuck Up mess of circus tricks slides down the greasy slope ;)

[Logen Ninefingers]

Let them keep up pushing out their portfolio of worthless never never fairy tale dreams .. every vote they con out from those falling off the Labour bandwagon will be a wasted effort as the Lab/Green/Tepuck Up mess of circus tricks slides down the greasy slope ;)

Every vote that goes from Labour to the Greens and Te Pati Maori increases the leverage that these parties will have over the power-mad Chipkins, ensuring that if - by some miracle - the Left get more votes than the Right....then the Greens and TPM will be in a prime position to force Chipkins to adopt their radical policies.

[nztx]

Every vote that goes from Labour to the Greens and Te Pati Maori increases the leverage that these parties will have over the power-mad Chipkins, ensuring that if - by some miracle - the Left get more votes than the Right....then the Greens and TPM will be in a prime position to force Chipkins to adopt their radical policies.


Can you see either of the rival splinters giving way for the other across various seats though ?

there's bound to be a huge volume of wasted & ineffective votes :)

the further the cake gets diced & sliced the better .. at Labour's expense ..

[Logen Ninefingers]

Can you see either of the rival splinters giving way for the other across various seats though ?

there's bound to be a huge volume of wasted & ineffective votes :)

the further the cake gets diced & sliced the better .. at Labour's expense ..

Yeah, but in MMP it's all about the party vote. That ultimately determines the number of seats a party gets.

In the electorates, I can certainly see that in some urban seats - where there are a number of high-profile candidates per seat - the Greens and Labour will split the vote and National will come through the middle. In some seats, the Greens will do better than Labour and may take the seat off them. There are a lot of lack-lustre Labour electorate MP's out there.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I see a opinion piece in The Press today, where 'Valerie Morse' (who confesses that she once burnt a New Zealand flag) advocates for 'deplatforming' quote "as a reasonable response to stop the spread of disinformation and violence".

And then I see the attack on a car dealership today, with evident vandalism & a man sprayed "head to toe" with paint. The criminals responsible referenced a 'climate crisis'.

With that in mind, should the cartoonist responsible for the attached cartoon be 'deplatformed'? I wonder what Valerie Morse would say.....

https://www.thepress.co.nz/a/nz-news/350072558/cartoon-september-15

----

https://www.thepress.co.nz/a/nz-news/350072823/when-deplatforming-reasonable-response

[SBQ]

The problems with a wealth tax....

https://www.nzinitiative.org.nz/reports-and-media/opinion/the-case-against-a-predatory-wealth-tax/

THE CASE AGAINST A PREDATORY WEALTH TAX

Dr Bryce Wilkinson NZ Herald 22 June, 2023

'The Green Party’s proposed wealth tax plays to greed and envy. It blithely proposes that everyone can be lifted out of poverty by imposing a heavy wealth tax on a mere 0.7% of the population.....

The bottom line is that sound tax principles are important. If government wants more revenue, raising it by general taxation should be the default option.'

Thank God that my father lives overseas and i've gifted most of my wealth to him from NZ. Unless NZ imposes some currency controls and Gift Duty back in, this Green Party wealth tax will be gamed out unless the wealth is held in hard assets like houses.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Thank God that my father lives overseas and i've gifted most of my wealth to him from NZ. Unless NZ imposes some currency controls and Gift Duty back in, this Green Party wealth tax will be gamed out unless the wealth is held in hard assets like houses.

It clearly won’t raise the revenue that they think it will anyway. (‘There’s a hole in the Greens tax plan’). They just do not live in the real world. As soon as it was telegraphed that it was coming in the capital flight would begin,

[SBQ]

It clearly won’t raise the revenue that they think it will anyway. (‘There’s a hole in the Greens tax plan’). They just do not live in the real world. As soon as it was telegraphed that it was coming in the capital flight would begin,

If I recall, over 20% expat Kiwis live abroad. That's a significant population of having ties with NZ (ie. family relation) who can easily structure their estate by moving liquid wealth abroad.

But i'm still shocked to hear that most people don't understand the problems of wealth redistribution.

[Logen Ninefingers]

If I recall, over 20% expat Kiwis live abroad. That's a significant population of having ties with NZ (ie. family relation) who can easily structure their estate by moving liquid wealth abroad.

But i'm still shocked to hear that most people don't understand the problems of wealth redistribution.

They don’t understand because they are fixated on ideology. It blinds them.

[Logen Ninefingers]

A direct link between the very dangerous Greens and perpetrators of criminal acts.

My question is: shouldn’t our media be door-stopping and hounding Shaw and Davidson over this criminal activity?

These are the people that Chipkins wants to form a government.

————

NewstalkZB reports:

‘A Restore Passenger Rail protestor is standing by the group’s decision to spray-paint a luxury Wellington car dealership.

Three protestors threw paint at the Gazley Motor Group building on Cambridge Terrace and glued themselves to the footpath.

The trio were subsequently arrested and charges are being considered.

Spokesperson James Cockle claims the luxury cars sold by the dealership are a symbol of excess and wealth inequality impacting this country.

“It correlates directly to the damage that’s being done to our planet. We’re sending a strong message to the New Zealand people- let’s stand up against luxury emissions and reign in the excesses of the mega-rich.”’

———

From the Kiwiblog site -

‘Almost laughing out loud at the belief that someone who buys a Gazley car is mega-rich, let alone the Communist type belief that no one should have any wealth.

Mr Cockle is of course a Green Party member who recently stood for the co-leadership. He also somehow manages to travel from Dunedin to Wellington to take part in protests, all without creating any emissions himself. Amazing.’

[Logen Ninefingers]

A direct link between the very dangerous Greens and perpetrators of criminal acts.

My question is: shouldn’t our media be door-stopping and hounding Shaw and Davidson over this criminal activity?

These are the people that Chipkins wants to form a government.

————

NewstalkZB reports:

‘A Restore Passenger Rail protestor is standing by the group’s decision to spray-paint a luxury Wellington car dealership.

Three protestors threw paint at the Gazley Motor Group building on Cambridge Terrace and glued themselves to the footpath.

The trio were subsequently arrested and charges are being considered.

Spokesperson James Cockle claims the luxury cars sold by the dealership are a symbol of excess and wealth inequality impacting this country.

“It correlates directly to the damage that’s being done to our planet. We’re sending a strong message to the New Zealand people- let’s stand up against luxury emissions and reign in the excesses of the mega-rich.”’

———

From the Kiwiblog site -

‘Almost laughing out loud at the belief that someone who buys a Gazley car is mega-rich, let alone the Communist type belief that no one should have any wealth.

Mr Cockle is of course a Green Party member who recently stood for the co-leadership. He also somehow manages to travel from Dunedin to Wellington to take part in protests, all without creating any emissions himself. Amazing.’

More on the political history of the idiotic Mr Cockle here -

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/446311/green-party-leadership-challenge-james-shaw-vs-james-cockle

[Logen Ninefingers]

The Greens promise 5 weeks of annual leave, confirm this will have zero impact on productivity. Media say "sweet as" and hurry off to harangue Chris Luxon.

------

Greens re-commit to five weeks annual leave
'Also speaking to E Tū in Māngere, Green co-leader Marama Davidson highlighted party policy of five weeks' annual leave.

As Stuff reported in July, the Green Party 2023 election manifesto included a promise to give every worker an extra week off.

The manifesto’s workforce section said: “Phase in five weeks annual leave.”

It also discussed increasing bereavement leave entitlements to give consideration to tangihanga and other cultural needs.

On Saturday, Davidson gave some more context behind that promise.

"We will provide organisations plenty of notice, and ensure the full five weeks is available for everyone by the end of 2025," she said.'

[Panda-NZ-]

The Greens promise 5 weeks of annual leave, confirm this will have zero impact on productivity. Media say "sweet as" and hurry off to harangue Chris Luxon.


One of their better ideas. Drained employees doing "make work" like checking emails and scheduling ever more meetings is no good either.

[Getty]

NewstalkZB reports:

‘A Restore Passenger Rail protestor is standing by the group’s decision to spray-paint a luxury Wellington car dealership.

Three protestors threw paint at the Gazley Motor Group building on Cambridge Terrace and glued themselves to the footpath.

The trio were subsequently arrested and charges are being considered.


...Charges are being considered?

What is this BS?

This rooster Cockle should be cooped up immediately before he eggs anyone on to do the same thing.
Tarring and feathering would be too good for him!

He should be up before the Beak!

[Logen Ninefingers]

...Charges are being considered?

What is this BS?

This rooster Cockle should be cooped up immediately before he eggs anyone on to do the same thing.
Tarring and feathering would be too good for him!

He should be up before the Beak!

Thinks he's a rooster, I'd like to see the Judge make a feather duster out of him. First we'd need the woke constabularly to see that a crime (multiple crimes in fact) has been committed, and get their political masters to agree to the pressing of charges. Another thing: I know we have 'policing by consent' these days, so would Mr Cockle head have to consent to being charged?

[Panda-NZ-]

Luxon was rather dismissive of a sensible annual leave policy.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Luxon was rather dismissive of a sensible annual leave policy.

'Sensible' is anything you yourself care to define it as. An utterly abstract concept. Just another example of your arrogance really.

[Panda-NZ-]

Newshub should do a poll then.

Q: Would you like one more week of annual leave per year?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Newshub should do a poll, then.

Q: Would you like one more week of annual leave per year?

So every year an extra week of annual leave?

How about a series of polls:

Q. Would you like the state to pay $1 million into your bank account every year?

Q. Would you like your employer to give you one free overseas trip to the value of $20,000 every year?

Your questions are sheer idiocy, like asking people whether they'd like to be the victim of a home invasion.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Newshub should do a poll then.

Q: Would you like one more week of annual leave per year?

I suspect you are a nihilistic anarchist posing as a far left ideologue.

[Panda-NZ-]

I suspect you are a nihilistic anarchist posing as a far left ideologue.

What about your far-right libertarian viewpoints?

If you spoke to workers from 80 years ago they would be astonished that we still have a 40 hour working week.

[Logen Ninefingers]

What about your far-right libertarian viewpoints.

If you spoke to workers from 80 years ago they would be astonished we still have a 40 hour working week.

You were a worker 80 years ago and heard their musings?

[Panda-NZ-]

You were a worker 80 years ago and heard their musings?

I was in a dark void for billions of years and I didn't notice.. life was simpler.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I was in a dark void for billions of years and I didn't notice.. life was simpler.

'A dark void'....sounds like this current Labour circus.

[ValueNZ]

What about your far-right libertarian viewpoints?

If you spoke to workers from 80 years ago they would be astonished that we still have a 40 hour working week.
I think workers from 80 years ago would be astonished at the level of wealth that we now take for granted.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I think workers from 80 years ago would be astonished at the level of debt that we now take for granted.

[Balance]

Greens' answer to crime - lots of hugs.

A candidate for the Green Party told an audience in the Maungakiekie electorate last night that victims of retail crime deserve “big hugs”, after being asked how to ensure community safety.

Sapna Samant, who is number 30 on the Greens list, was one of four political candidates invited to attend a meet the candidates event in Ellerslie. Also in attendance were Labour’s Priyanca Radhakrishnan and National’s Greg Fleming.

After being asked about priorities for policing and overall safety in the community, Samant appeared to pledge an unusual approach to dealing with victims of crime. “In terms of the policing I know there has been so much talk about an increase in crime and my heart goes out to all those businesses that have been affected very badly – and definitely big hugs from me,” she said.

“You might say ‘what’s the point of hugs’? Each of these issues that everybody wants to conflate and bring together are completely different. Ram raids are different from any other crime and so we have to look at all these issues separately.”

https://thespinoff.co.nz/live-updates/19-09-2023/green-candidate-offers-big-hugs-for-victims-of-retail-crime

[Logen Ninefingers]

‘The man who gave Greens co-leader James Shaw his biggest career break has just delivered Shaw one of his biggest slapdowns: “I believe it should be a matter of justifiable public interest to know whether the qualifications which office-holders state they hold, do in fact exist.”

For nearly two weeks the Climate Change minister Shaw has steadfastly resisted requests for a privacy waiver so the circumstances of his MSc degree from the UK’s Bath University can be fact-checked – but one of Shaw’s biggest supporters has delivered a crushing blow to his former protege, saying it’s time to front up.’

https://ianwishart.com/2023/09/james-shaws-ex-boss-justifiable-public-interest-to-probe-your-msc-degree/

[Azz]

‘The man who gave Greens co-leader James Shaw his biggest career break has just delivered Shaw one of his biggest slapdowns: “I believe it should be a matter of justifiable public interest to know whether the qualifications which office-holders state they hold, do in fact exist.”

For nearly two weeks the Climate Change minister Shaw has steadfastly resisted requests for a privacy waiver so the circumstances of his MSc degree from the UK’s Bath University can be fact-checked – but one of Shaw’s biggest supporters has delivered a crushing blow to his former protege, saying it’s time to front up.’

https://ianwishart.com/2023/09/james-shaws-ex-boss-justifiable-public-interest-to-probe-your-msc-degree/

Interesting. How does he get a Master's degree without a Bachelor's degree?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Interesting. How does he get a Master's degree without a Bachelor's degree?

Good question.

[Azz]

Good question.

This surely is a massive story. Must be all over the media!

[mfd]

Interesting. How does he get a Master's degree without a Bachelor's degree?

It is quite possible to study for a Masters directly in the UK without acquiring a BSc, would usually take four years study. I know a few people who have done so.

No idea if that's the case here.

[Azz]

It is quite possible to study for a Masters directly in the UK without acquiring a BSc, would usually take four years study. I know a few people who have done so.

No idea if that's the case here.

He also used to have a Bachelor's - until he didn't...

[Azz]

James Shaw linkedin:
University of Bath School of Management
MSc Responsibility in Business Practise
2003 - 2005

[Azz]

How does this work, exactly? Did James Shaw get a special exemption?

[Azz]

Sequence of events (and leaving out a number of other lies by James Shaw)...:
1) His linkedin said he had a Bachelor's degree.
2) Apparently not! Now it says he doesn't have a Bachelor's degree.
3) People wonder how he got a Master's without a Bachelor's!
4) He refuses to confirm the way he got his "Master's".
5) This is all ok, and the mainstream media don't care. And he hasn't resigned.

[justakiwi]

Why should he resign? Literally, who cares whether he has a degree or not? Qualifications have their place, but they don't guarantee anything. Pretty sure we all know someone with a degree who is useless as tits on a bull.

I assume you are sharing this because you believe he has been dishonest. Who knows? But let's just focus on the important stuff right now. Stuff like this is just a distraction.



Sequence of events (and leaving out a number of other lies by James Shaw)...:
1) His linkedin said he had a Bachelor's degree.
2) Apparently not! Now it says he doesn't have a Bachelor's degree.
3) People wonder how he got a Master's without a Bachelor's!
4) He refuses to confirm the way he got his "Master's".
5) This is all ok, and the mainstream media don't care. And he hasn't resigned.

[Azz]

Why should he resign? Literally, who cares whether he has a degree or not? Qualifications have their place, but they don't guarantee anything. Pretty sure we all know someone with a degree who is useless as tits on a bull.

I assume you are sharing this because you believe he has been dishonest. Who knows? But let's just focus on the important stuff right now. Stuff like this is just a distraction.

He's lied on his CV to enter into institutions. It's incredibly serious.

[justakiwi]

Until this is proven to be true, nobody knows what the reality is. If it turns out to be correct, then yes, you will be correct. But until then, don't we have bigger things to be worried about? That's all I am saying.


He's lied on his CV to enter into institutions. It's incredibly serious.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Why should he resign? Literally, who cares whether he has a degree or not? Qualifications have their place, but they don't guarantee anything. Pretty sure we all know someone with a degree who is useless as tits on a bull.

I assume you are sharing this because you believe he has been dishonest. Who knows? But let's just focus on the important stuff right now. Stuff like this is just a distraction.

With all due respect JAK, the point is that degrees open doors to opportunities that are denied to those without degrees. It’s a stipulation for the type of roles Shaw was applying for. Yes, some people with degrees ‘are as useless as tits on a bull’, I fully agree with you. More than ‘some’ in fact, there are countless numbers of them out there. But qualifications are requirements, they indicate skills that someone has acquired. This is about trust and integrity. Would you want to be operated on by a surgeon who had forged his medical qualifications? Would you want your house built by an unqualified builder? Would you want your house designed by an unqualified architect? Would you want your car worked on by an unqualified mechanic? Would you want to read academic papers by someone who falsified their qualifications and also their research?

3 points:
1/ Claiming you have a degree when you don’t steals an opportunity from someone who spend the time & money to get themselves qualified.
2/ In certain circumstances you are called upon to apply knowledge that you acquired in the process of gaining a degree. If you in fact do not possess the knowledge you claim to, you are a fraud.
3/ This is about personal integrity, & also trust in the system. If someone is making false claims about their qualifications they are behaving without integrity. The more high-profile cases there are where people are exposed as having made false claims about their qualifications, the more trust is eroded in the system.

I think this is very serious, very serious indeed. Much more serious than claiming that Mandela would have supported ACT’s stance on ‘co-governance’.

[Azz]

Until this is proven to be true, nobody knows what the reality is. If it turns out to be correct, then yes, you will be correct. But until then, don't we have bigger things to be worried about? That's all I am saying.

It's fraud. What bigger thing can there be than that, for a government minister?

And check this AIESEC (an NGO) page:

"With a BA from Victoria University of Wellington and an MSc in Responsibility in Business Practice from the University of Bath’s School of Management, James Shaw spent five years in AIESEC, taking up roles such as Local Committee President of AIESEC Victoria, President of AIESEC New Zealand and acted as a Project Manager in AIESEC International."

https://aiesec-alumni.org/james-shaw-profile/

[Logen Ninefingers]

Why should he resign? Literally, who cares whether he has a degree or not? Qualifications have their place, but they don't guarantee anything. Pretty sure we all know someone with a degree who is useless as tits on a bull.

I assume you are sharing this because you believe he has been dishonest. Who knows? But let's just focus on the important stuff right now. Stuff like this is just a distraction.

The pressure from ‘alternative’ media will continue, you can be sure of that. If Shaw has nothing to hide then why would he stand in the way of the relevant checks being made? He made a false claim about one degree, and was caught out. Now he is trying to stop an investigation into another. If he continues to obfuscate all the way up to the election, it will speak volumes.

Personally, I think it is utterly disgraceful that he claimed a degree he did not achieve.

[justakiwi]

OK. I understand what you are both saying and I agree, that if it is proven to be correct, it is unacceptable. Until then, I see no point in jumping to conclusions. That's all.


With all due respect JAK, the point is that degrees open doors to opportunities that are denied to those without degrees. It’s a stipulation for the type of roles Shaw was applying for. Yes, some people with degrees ‘are as useless as tits on a bull’, I fully agree with you. More than ‘some’ in fact, there are countless numbers of them out there. But qualifications are requirements, they indicate skills that someone has acquired. This is about trust and integrity. Would you want to be operated on by a surgeon who had forged his medical qualifications? Would you want your house built by an unqualified builder? Would you want your house designed by an unqualified architect? Would you want your car worked on by an unqualified mechanic? Would you want to read academic papers by someone who falsified their qualifications and also their research?

3 points:
1/ Claiming you have a degree when you don’t steals an opportunity from someone who spend the time & money to get themselves qualified.
2/ In certain circumstances you are called upon to apply knowledge that you acquired in the process of gaining a degree. If you in fact do not possess the knowledge you claim to, you are a fraud.
3/ This is about personal integrity, & also trust in the system. If someone is making false claims about their qualifications they are behaving without integrity. The more high-profile cases there are where people are exposed as having made false claims about their qualifications, the more trust is eroded in the system.

I think this is very serious, very serious indeed. Much more serious than claiming that Mandela would have supported ACT’s stance on ‘co-governance’.


It's fraud. What bigger thing can there be than that, for a government minister?

And check this AIESEC (an NGO) page:

"With a BA from Victoria University of Wellington and an MSc in Responsibility in Business Practice from the University of Bath’s School of Management, James Shaw spent five years in AIESEC, taking up roles such as Local Committee President of AIESEC Victoria, President of AIESEC New Zealand and acted as a Project Manager in AIESEC International."

https://aiesec-alumni.org/james-shaw-profile/

[Azz]

OK. I understand what you are both saying and I agree, that if it is proven to be correct, it is unacceptable. Until then, I see no point in jumping to conclusions. That's all.

He's getting away with not releasing his "privacy" hold on the documents because the media are allowing him to.

[nztx]

https://dailytelegraph.co.nz/news/confirmed-james-shaw-doesnt-have-a-b-a/

CONFIRMED: JAMES SHAW DOESN’T HAVE A B.A.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fknjeovP4XM

Sean Plunket reveals the truth about James Shaw's tertiary qualifications

Have Bath University confirmed yet, or not or still busy counting boxes on the shelves ? ;)



https://waikanaewatch.org/2023/09/17/more-on-james-shaws-alleged-degrees/


Who paid the British MSc Tuition Fee ?

Were Bath aware of a flunked 3 year BA at Vic & what Work Experience was disclosed to them ? ;)


Obviously if James has nothing to hide / fear .. then his answers & disclosure to clear the air shouldn't be a problem - should it ? ;)

[nztx]

https://ianwishart.com/2023/09/james-shaws-ex-boss-justifiable-public-interest-to-probe-your-msc-degree/

James Shaw’s ex boss: “justifiable public interest” to probe your MSc degree



For nearly two weeks the Climate Change minister Shaw has steadfastly resisted requests for a privacy waiver so the circumstances of his MSc degree from the UK’s Bath University can be fact-checked – but one of Shaw’s biggest supporters has delivered a crushing blow to his former protege, saying it’s time to front up.


Is it Bath time yet ? .. no point in prolonging the inevitable ;)

Supporters of the cause have every right to be put in the picture on whether this more Green BullSh*t or not :)

Coming from a Former Boss at a one of the reputable Large Big-4 Accounting Firms with Degrees required as a pre-requisite - it might be time to do the Honourable thing & sit up in the Chair - young James :)

[Azz]

The Climate Change religion is built on plain lies, falsehoods by omission, and bastardized statistics; is anyone surprised the Minister James Shaw is a liar too?

[Azz]

How can someone list a held degree on their linkedin, then just remove it - and everything is just fine???

[nztx]

How can someone list a held degree on their linkedin, then just remove it - and everything is just fine???


Sounds more than a bit Questionable heading up to an Election - others have fallen on their swords badly for faked / fraudulent qualifications including claims thereof and that's not in the loftier Political circles as well ;)


The Electoral Authorities should be putting this under the microscope very seriously


There is more than enough evidence & commentary out there on what was published & represented and the changes subsequently made after it came to light ..

[nztx]

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/real-life/interview-james-shaw-2015/


Interview: James Shaw 2015


James attended Wellington High School and then Victoria University of Wellington. He later lived in London for 12 years, during which time he worked for PriceWaterhouseCoopers and completed an MSc in sustainability and business leadership at the University of Bath.

In 2010, Shaw returned to NZ and worked as a consultant for HSBC bank on "environmental awareness programmes for future leaders". In 2014 was elected to the New Zealand parliament as a representative of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand. He was elected the party's male co-leader in May 2015.

As well as being co-leader of the Green Party, Shaw is also the spokesperson for economic development, commerce, trade & investment, tourism, small business, sustainable business, SOEs, open government and electoral reform.


Over 8 years & 3 months ago .. so this has been going on a while ;)

[nztx]

https://www.thedailyexaminer.co.nz/shaws-political-career-is-unlikely-to-survive-this-scandal/

Shaw’s Political Career Is Unlikely To Survive This Scandal




New Zealand climate change minister and Greens co-leader James Shaw is facing serious questions after revelations that his LinkedIn page lists a university degree he was never awarded.

The page lists a BA from Victoria University of Wellington… but Shaw dropped out and never completed it.

Somehow, Shaw managed to later enrol in a UK university and be awarded a Master of Science degree which he has used to add heft to his image as climate change minister.

Shaw is also on the board of AIESEC NZ and its profile on him leads with his BA from Victoria University.

Yet Shaw has admitted in media interviews last decade that he never completed his bachelor’s degree, making his decision to list the BA now inexplicable.

Shaw’s political career is unlikely to survive this scandal.

[Azz]

https://waikanaewatch.org/2023/09/17/more-on-james-shaws-alleged-degrees/

This one says...:

"Given that Shaw has already been caught making a false claim on his LinkedIn page about having a BA from Vic Uni (an offence under s20 of the Summary Offences Act 1981)"

[nztx]

Greens.org.nz:


Only mention of Academic Qualifications now is:



While completing a Master’s in sustainable development and business leadership at Bath University

[nztx]

https://www.peterreason.net/wp-content/uploads/MSc_resp_bus_prac_brochure.pdf

PDF in Link URL


MSC Brochure - University of Bath School of Management


Who is the Course for ?


For this postgraduate level course, you will need to
have the work experience, commitment and ability
to tackle a demanding programme whilst continuing
with your working life. This course is not for recent
graduates who have no work experience. Participants
will normally hold a fi rst degree (not necessarily in a
management discipline), or will meet the School of
Management entry requirements by demonstrating
appropriate intellectual and professional competence
to undertake the programme.

You will be expected to reflect on and explore new forms of
practice in your organizational, community or professional
activities between workshops as part of the action inquiry
approach. You will therefore need to demonstrate that
you can provide an organizational or community setting
in which such explorations can take place.


Peter Reason is one of the tutors in the Profile section for this course



F** Me - 4 years . and still couldn't complete a simple BA in Kiwiland and for whatever reason the turkeys at Respectable University of Bath either don't check or grant a Free Pass to a Post Grad Masters 10 or so years later ;)

[nztx]

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/minister/biography/james-shaw

Hon James Shaw



Prior to becoming an MP, James had a successful career in management consulting, primarily in London, where he lived from 1998 to 2010. He has diverse experience working for large multinational organisations through to local start-ups, social enterprises and community organisations, across Europe, in New Zealand and around the world.

While completing a Master’s in sustainable development and business leadership at Bath University, James came to the realisation that the private sector alone wasn’t able to effect change at the speed and scale necessary to meet the challenge of climate change and that political change was also required.

No mention of a flunked BA anywhere here - just the Bath Masters ;)

How long after flunking the degree at Vic did he run away to the UK ?

[Getty]

Time to dis James Shaw.

DisHon James Shaw.

[Azz]

Shaw’s Political Career Is Unlikely To Survive This Scandal

He's still got his job.

[nztx]

Message to Media: Do not Report on James - He's locked up in a back cupboard out of sight
with full gag installed and brown paper bag over top, so no-one see him :)

[justakiwi]

As was suggested - new poll for the next seven days is here:

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12751-POLL-Election-poll-3-weeks-till-election (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12751-POLL-Election-poll-3-weeks-till-election)

[justakiwi]

This week's election poll is here:

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12754-POLL-New-poll-2-weeks-till-the-election

[Balance]

He's still got his job.

Well, Ian Wishart is trying his best to surface the story but the msm does not want to know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzyuuH2Gw7w

Yup - because the msm woke & leftist interviewers will chase any story half true if it's the Nats or ACT but steer clear of chasing the real story when it comes to the Greens & Labour.

See how powerful a tool $$$$ is with the covid media fund? And they say there's no corruption in NZ!

[nztx]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2023-chris-hipkins-sidelined-by-illness-on-a-critical-campaign-day/PUCSMNLBBJCLLOWDSXAVQBLK6M/


The Green Party co-leaders Marama Davidson and James Shaw will have a day of joint campaigning in Auckland, including unveiling their fiscal plan today ahead of a public meeting at Avondale.


It must be safe for James (How many Degrees or Any?) to come out and play ;)

No need to send out a search party ..

Not being very forthcoming in clearing the air or fessing up - is he ? ;)

When various sites reported certain qualifications - then they must have got the info from somewhere ? :)

It can only get worse left lingering ..

[Daytr]

No BS here. As I've said on multiple occasions if NZ farming doesn't get on board with reducing their emmissions or offsetting them the international market will leave them behind. The likes of National, ACT, Dairy NZ, NZ Beef & Lamb need to wake up. Fonterra thank goodness finally is.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2023-simon-wilson-argues-the-case-for-farmers-to-vote-green/S47N2RONRRBB3MGILOCSMLU3AQ/?lid=330pa0r72ms6

[Logen Ninefingers]

No BS here. As I've said on multiple occasions if NZ farming doesn't get on board with reducing their emmissions or offsetting them the international market will leave them behind. The likes of National, ACT, Dairy NZ, NZ Beef & Lamb need to wake up. Fonterra thank goodness finally is.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2023-simon-wilson-argues-the-case-for-farmers-to-vote-green/S47N2RONRRBB3MGILOCSMLU3AQ/?lid=330pa0r72ms6

‘No bs’ is the claim. So click on the link….and it’s an ‘article’ by the deranged left wing climate hysteric Simon Wilson. It’s all bs.

[Daytr]

‘No bs’ is the claim. So click on the link….and it’s an ‘article’ by the deranged left wing climate hysteric Simon Wilson. It’s all bs.

You obviously didn't read the article. The ramifications to NZs biggest industry will be threatened by its own export market. Nestle is no joke in the world of dairy products.

Bury your head in the sand like those mentioned above and put the industry at risk.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You obviously didn't read the article. The ramifications to NZs biggest industry will be threatened by its own export market. Nestle is no joke in the world of dairy products.

Bury your head in the sand like those mentioned above and put the industry at risk.

Simon Wilson doesn’t write anything other than left wing propaganda.

[Daytr]

Simon Wilson doesn’t write anything other than left wing propaganda.

Weak argument. You constantly play the man, not the issue.
In this case the journalist.

The environment shouldn't be a left or right issue. But in this case, the right by not taking action will threaten NZs largest industry & export earner, something I have been saying on here for quite some time.

Either challenge the article itself or stop thinking you are everyone's answer to everything.

[Balance]

Simon Wilson doesn’t write anything other than left wing propaganda.

He certainly will not write anything about James Shaw’s fake qualifications and how he did not qualify from universities.

One quack to another quack - Wilson & Shaw.

[Logen Ninefingers]

He certainly will not write anything about James Shaw’s fake qualifications and how he did not qualify from universities.

One quack to another quack - Wilson & Shaw.

Wilson is a disgrace.

[Logen Ninefingers]

‘'White people are stupid', Labour Minister 'f***ing useless' - the latest candidate in Twitter/X trouble’

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300983505/tova-podcast-white-people-are-stupid-labour-minister-ing-useless--the-latest-candidate-in-twitterx-trouble

‘“White people are stupid” and “can be fooled easily” according to a Green Party candidate who also labelled her opponent, Labour Minister Priyanca Radhakrishnan, “****ing useless” and an “incompetent” minister.

Greens co-leader James Shaw was unaware of his Maungakieie candidate, Sapna Samant’s, tweets when asked about them during an interview on the Tova podcast.

Shortly after the interview, Samant protected her tweets so that only approved followers could access her posts.’

[Bjauck]

‘'White people are stupid', Labour Minister 'f***ing useless' - the latest candidate in Twitter/X trouble’

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300983505/tova-podcast-white-people-are-stupid-labour-minister-ing-useless--the-latest-candidate-in-twitterx-trouble

‘“White people are stupid” and “can be fooled easily” according to a Green Party candidate who also labelled her opponent, Labour Minister Priyanca Radhakrishnan, “****ing useless” and an “incompetent” minister.

Greens co-leader James Shaw was unaware of his Maungakieie candidate, Sapna Samant’s, tweets when asked about them during an interview on the Tova podcast.

Shortly after the interview, Samant protected her tweets so that only approved followers could access her posts.’
The Green Party is discriminatory to its core. One of the two co-leader MUST be Māori and one MUST be female ( the other can be any gender.) So it is not surprising (to me) that a candidate comes out with such sentiment.

[Getty]

Looks like James Shaw has been set up by Jack Tames question about telling lies in the TV1 debate on now.

James answer, integrity is everything.

So will Jack follow up with questions about Shaws 'qualifications'?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Looks like James Shaw has been set up by Jack Tames question about telling lies in the TV1 debate on now.

James answer, integrity is everything.

So will Jack follow up with questions about Shaws 'qualifications'?

Nah, he won't. But the audience has been packed with young greenies, and the greasy Shaw is playing up to it, snapping at Seymour and belittling him, to cheers and laughter.
If there's one thing to note about Shaw, Davidson, and Swarbrick, it's that they are chock full or arrogance and swagger & enjoy patronising others. They think they are intellectual titans when it is obvious they are lightweights. I think a comeuppance is coming their way.

[ynot]

Nah, he won't. But the audience has been packed with young greenies, and the greasy Shaw is playing up to it, snapping at Seymour and belittling him, to cheers and laughter.
If there's one thing to note about Shaw, Davidson, and Swarbrick, it's that they are chock full or arrogance and swagger & enjoy patronising others. They think they are intellectual titans when it is obvious they are lightweights. I think a comeuppance is coming their way.
Greens polling is up. Far too many kiwis buy their waffle. Disturbing.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Greens polling is up. Far too many kiwis buy their waffle. Disturbing.

The media skews everything to the Left, so your answer probably lies there.

Waititi ends the 'debate' with an extended rant which is greeted with cheering and clapping by the hand-picked audience.

And coming up Jessica Much-Maligned will be there with a hand-picked panel which will tell us what to think about who won the debate & what went on.

It's all so carefully crafted that you can't be surprised when so many of the sheep wander into the Red and Green pens that have been prepared for them.

[ynot]

The media skews everything to the Left, so your answer probably lies there.

Waititi ends the 'debate' with an extended rant which is greeted with cheering and clapping by the hand-picked audience.

And coming up Jessica Much-Maligned will be will a hand-picked panel which will tell us what to think about who won the debate & what went on.

It's all so carefully crafted that you can't be surprised when so many of the sheep wander into the Red and Green pens that have been prepared for them.
Yes, blatantly open bias.

[Getty]

It seems Shaws qualifications are as authentic as a Helen Clark painting.

Some may wish to be dismissive of this.

But when you consider the level of scrutiny that many, myself included, undergo just to do volunteer work in our community, then you can see a massive double standard.

He is there for Parliament, Government and Miniterial roles, and the renumeration that goes with it.

Not right is it?

[Logen Ninefingers]

It seems Shaws qualifications are as authentic as a Helen Clark painting.

Some may wish to be dismissive of this.

But when you consider the level of scrutiny that many, myself included, undergo just to do volunteer work in our community, then you can see a massive double standard.

He is there for Parliament, Government and Miniterial roles, and the renumeration that goes with it.

Not right is it?

He definitely needs to get his comeuppance. But while he blocks any attempts to find out if his MSc is legit or not, and the mainstream media refuse to touch the story, it won't come about by this avenue. But hubris is real, and he will come a cropper in due course I am sure.

[kiwikeith]

The media skews everything to the Left, so your answer probably lies there.

Waititi ends the 'debate' with an extended rant which is greeted with cheering and clapping by the hand-picked audience.

And coming up Jessica Much-Maligned will be there with a hand-picked panel which will tell us what to think about who won the debate & what went on.

It's all so carefully crafted that you can't be surprised when so many of the sheep wander into the Red and Green pens that have been prepared for them.

Ex National press secretary Janet Wilson should not have been on the panel. She clearly despises Winston Peters and put the boot into him at every opportunity - much of it personal and vindictive such as saying Peters is looking at his legacy which to date has not been much.

I normally don't rate Shaw but he was good TV last night. When he said something like - David (Seymour) you are entitled to say stupid things but you are abusing the privilege - it had me giggling.

[justakiwi]

Final election poll is here:

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12761-ELECTION-POLL-1-week-till-the-election!

[JBmurc]

Greens polling is up. Far too many Kiwis buy their waffle. Disturbing.

Also getting the GANG vote.I found a tweet from the leader of the MOB promoting its members to vote GREEN ...weakest on crime and gangs

[Patrick11]

It's a shame the greens aren't open to working with national. James shaw comes across well and likeable. Their environmental policies are good & they will do well this election.

[iceman]

It's a shame the greens aren't open to working with national. James shaw comes across well and likeable. Their environmental policies are good & they will do well this election.

True but apart from James, their MPs are in the wrong party. They have hijacked The Greens for far left and racists ideology, instead of fighting for the environment. Quite sad that we don't have a real environmental party in NZ, like we see all over Europe, where they are often effective environmental champions.

[blackcap]

It's a shame the greens aren't open to working with national. James shaw comes across well and likeable. Their environmental policies are good & they will do well this election.

What you seem to forget is that the Greens are not an environmental party.....

[ithaka]

It's a shame the greens aren't open to working with national. James shaw comes across well and likeable. Their environmental policies are good & they will do well this election.
"Barely tolerated by Green activists for most of the past three years, James Shaw has been thrust forward to sell the party’s popular and genuinely progressive policies to the electorate. Unfortunately, everybody who understands just how radical the Greens have become, also knows that the moment the votes are counted Shaw will be pushed aside and the party’s ultra-progressive priorities reclaimed from the backstage area and thrust forward.

It is precisely this sort of conscious deception, this deliberate “fooling” of the voters, that has transformed progressive politics from what used to be a joyful affirmation of idealism into a joyless exercise in dishonesty." - Chris Trotter

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/09/15/delirious-hatred-the-dystopic-tendencies-of-twenty-first-century-progressivism/

[JBmurc]

It's a shame the greens aren't open to working with national. James Shaw comes across as well and likeable. Their environmental policies are good & they will do well in this election.

they are FULL of crap ... fully behind woke/commie agenda with GREEN camo .. been in power for how long ?

[777]

"Barely tolerated by Green activists for most of the past three years, James Shaw has been thrust forward to sell the party’s popular and genuinely progressive policies to the electorate. Unfortunately, everybody who understands just how radical the Greens have become, also knows that the moment the votes are counted Shaw will be pushed aside and the party’s ultra-progressive priorities reclaimed from the backstage area and thrust forward.

It is precisely this sort of conscious deception, this deliberate “fooling” of the voters, that has transformed progressive politics from what used to be a joyful affirmation of idealism into a joyless exercise in dishonesty." - Chris Trotter

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/09/15/delirious-hatred-the-dystopic-tendencies-of-twenty-first-century-progressivism/

A good post. It's a shame Patrick11 needed to be told what has been so obvious for so long.

Patrick just think of a watermelon.

[nztx]

It seems Shaws qualifications are as authentic as a Helen Clark painting.

Some may wish to be dismissive of this.

But when you consider the level of scrutiny that many, myself included, undergo just to do volunteer work in our community, then you can see a massive double standard.

He is there for Parliament, Government and Miniterial roles, and the renumeration that goes with it.

Not right is it?


Will the painting of his qualifications be auctioned off next week - to raise funds for the Greens ? :)

[JBmurc]

the watermelon party(green on the outside and red in the centre) truly are all about filling their pockets and not influencing Govt policy ,,,

they are celebrating more than they did when Labour was voted in ... I guess it's more ...Wow we have stolen so many young dumb Labour voters ... we have jobs for life !!!!

[nztx]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/greens-made-calls-during-election-day-campaigning-blackout-potentially-breaching-electoral-law/COV2S2WIBRC2ZGYG7GQMDDVHRM/

Greens made calls during election day campaigning blackout, potentially breaching electoral law



A volunteer for the Green Party made calls urging people to vote during the Election Day campaigning blackout.

The message copped flak from an electoral law expert who says the recorded voicemail could breach the strict campaigning restrictions governing polling day.

Restrictions barring campaigning or attempts to influence voters remain in place until 7pm on Saturday.

The message, left at 1.36pm on Saturday, did not explicitly say to vote Green but referred people to the party’s website.

The Electoral Commission said earlier it was looking into the matter after a member of the public supplied the Herald with a recording they had received of an automated voice message from Greens co-leader Marama Davidson.

Then, just before 5.30pm, a Greens spokesman said the party had spoke to the Electoral Commission and “pulled the message on request”.

“Kia ora, it’s Marama Davidson here, Green Party co-leader,” the voicemail said.

A nice law abiding bunch of cretins - aren't they ?

When does the investigation into publication of Shaw's Degree qualifications or lack thereof kick off ? ;)

[Patrick11]

Feel sorry for James shaw Choe & Davidson just took over the show at there campaign hq. James is in the wrong party.

[ynot]

Chloe showing her inner self last night. Very angry individual.

[iceman]

Feel sorry for James shaw Choe & Davidson just took over the show at there campaign hq. James is in the wrong party.

Agree. It was painful to watch. As if any proof was needed that The Greens are no longer an environmental party, last night clearly showed it.

[Balance]

They behaved last night like they had won the election when they had actually just lost the election along with Labour.

Sure they took seats off Labour but that was by purposefully undermining Labour with their unworkable envy taxes and divisive race based policies.

With friends like the Greens, Labour does not need enemies.

[BlackPeter]

True but apart from James, their MPs are in the wrong party. They have hijacked The Greens for far left and racists ideology, instead of fighting for the environment. Quite sad that we don't have a real environmental party in NZ, like we see all over Europe, where they are often effective environmental champions.

Agreed.

But actually - we have such a party in New Zealand, maybe they just didn't rattle the cage strong enough for this years elections?

Some people might have noticed that TOP considers themselves as "teal" - which is basically an amalgamation out of green and blue.

Australia has a Teal Party (which happens to be blue-green - and liberal).

TOP has as well a number of quite sensible environmental policies ...

They might need however some more people to better flash out their policies as well as improving their marketing strategies.

[Balance]

Tyranny of the minority - James Shaw ( of the fake degree) uses threat of violence to try & stop a referendum on the Treaty.

Boost the police and army - time for NZ to put a stop to all that kind of threats being made against free speech, freedom and majority rule.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/133123493/it-could-lead-to-violence-james-shaws-warning-about-acts-treaty-of-waitangi-referendum

[Getty]

Feel sorry for James shaw Choe & Davidson just took over the show at there campaign hq. James is in the wrong party.

Notice how Davidson launched into her long rant in Te Reo, and ignored Shaws presence even though he was right beside her, pretending he was understanding.

That's co governance in Aotearoa for you.

[Getty]

Notice how Davidson launched into her long rant in Te Reo, and ignored Shaws presence even though he was right beside her, pretending he was understanding.

That's co governance in Aotearoa for you.

Thats what you get from Teriti based parties eh.

Do half those silly people that vote for such a party know that?

[Entrep]

Don't forget they actually tried to boot Shaw out not long ago!

[blackcap]

Notice how Davidson launched into her long rant in Te Reo, and ignored Shaws presence even though he was right beside her, pretending he was understanding.

That's co governance in Aotearoa for you.

Hopefully with NZ First and Act's influence the Aotearoa nonsense is going to stop soon.

[BlackPeter]

Tyranny of the minority - James Shaw ( of the fake degree) uses threat of violence to try & stop a referendum on the Treaty.

Boost the police and army - time for NZ to put a stop to all that kind of threats being made against free speech, freedom and majority rule.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/133123493/it-could-lead-to-violence-james-shaws-warning-about-acts-treaty-of-waitangi-referendum

True - I guess your disgraceful posts are every day a reminder how a radical minority of one can tyrannize the silent majority.

But - whats wrong with James Shaw having a political opinion? Ah yes, it is different to the views of an anonymous posters and smearer with the quite unsuitable avator "balance", so - lets slam him, shall we?

[Balance]

True - I guess your disgraceful posts are every day a reminder how a radical minority of one can tyrannize the silent majority.

But - whats wrong with James Shaw having a political opinion? Ah yes, it is different to the views of an anonymous posters and smearer with the quite unsuitable avator "balance", so - lets slam him, shall we?

Yawn.

James Shaw with the fake degree.

So scared are the Labour/Greens/Maori racists of a referendum that they are threatening violence to try & stop one.

They clearly do not want the resounding verdict which is a certainty.

Why are they so scared of what the majority of NZers want?

[winner69]

When is that Chloe going to take control of the Greens

[blackcap]

When is that Chloe going to take control of the Greens

I reakon she missed the boat, there is a new lot coming through that seem like they going to take control of that waka.

[Balance]

I reakon she missed the boat, there is a new lot coming through that seem like they going to take control of that waka.

Davidson will hang onto her position until the day she dies.

If Chloe becomes a real threat, watch the knives come out.

[jonu]

Davidson will hang onto her position until the day she dies.

If Chloe becomes a real threat, watch the knives come out.

Genter now has an electorate seat. She will have another crack. She has already tried to roll Shaw, cos according to her it's OK for two people with vaginas to head the party, just not two people with penises. But then they have to squeeze in a brown person with or without a vagina. Complicated ay?

[moka]

Feel sorry for James shaw Choe & Davidson just took over the show at there campaign hq. James is in the wrong party.


Chloe showing her inner self last night. Very angry individual.I saw a very animated, happy woman excited to have retained her seat and thrilled that the Greens had won two other seats. When you say she was angry you are projecting your own anger on to her, in my opinion, and it seems that you are not the only one to feel upset about the white male being apparently sidelined by women.


Agree. It was painful to watch. As if any proof was needed that The Greens are no longer an environmental party, last night clearly showed it.

[Balance]

I saw a very animated, happy woman excited to have retained her seat and thrilled that the Greens had won two other seats. When you say she was angry you are projecting your own anger on to her, in my opinion, and it seems that you are not the only one to feel upset about the white male being apparently sidelined by women.

What woman?

She would take offence at you referring to her as a woman.

[BlackPeter]

Yawn.

James Shaw with the fake degree.

So scared are the Labour/Greens/Maori racists of a referendum that they are threatening violence to try & stop one.

They clearly do not want the resounding verdict which is a certainty.

Why are they so scared of what the majority of NZers want?

If two parties sign a contract, it is not possible for one of the signatories afterwards to just run a referendum whether they want to stick with their commitments, or whether they prefer to wiggle out - isn't it? Your understanding of law and order is sorely lacking.

I understand as well that even Chris Luxon is bright enough to understand this simple legal fact (pacta sunt servanda) and therefore does not agree to a referendum. Does not make any sense and would have no legal relevance at all. Looks like populist ACT has limited brainpower (as all populists do) - and clearly, your post only demonstrates your absolute lack of legal grasp.

[Balance]

If two parties sign a contract, it is not possible for one of the signatories afterwards to just run a referendum whether they want to stick with their commitments, or whether they prefer to wiggle out - isn't it? Your understanding of law and order is sorely lacking.

I understand as well that even Chris Luxon is bright enough to understand this simple legal fact (pacta sunt servanda) and therefore does not agree to a referendum. Does not make any sense and would have no legal relevance at all. Looks like populist ACT has limited brainpower (as all populists do) - and clearly, your post only demonstrates your absolute lack of legal grasp.

The interpretation of the contract is in dispute - so don't give me that BS.

You & your ilk are sounding just as desperate as the woke leftists by the day.

[jonu]

If two parties sign a contract, it is not possible for one of the signatories afterwards to just run a referendum whether they want to stick with their commitments, or whether they prefer to wiggle out - isn't it? Your understanding of law and order is sorely lacking.

I understand as well that even Chris Luxon is bright enough to understand this simple legal fact (pacta sunt servanda) and therefore does not agree to a referendum. Does not make any sense and would have no legal relevance at all. Looks like populist ACT has limited brainpower (as all populists do) - and clearly, your post only demonstrates your absolute lack of legal grasp.

Have you heard of Brexit, Mr BP constitutional law expert?

Have you thought of what will happen when NZ grows up and becomes a Republic, Mr BP constitutional law expert? Even your former beloved Jacinda is a Republican.

[BlackPeter]

The interpretation of the contract is in dispute - so don't give me that BS.

You & your ilk are sounding just as desperate as the woke leftists by the day.

Clearly - if the interpretation of a contract is in dispute, than you don't have a referendum, but you ask lawyers and courts to sort that out. Stupid.

Sad that your only method to cover up for your incredible ignorance seems to be to launch personal attacks on other posters. Quite disgraceful behaviour.

[BlackPeter]

Have you heard of Brexit, Mr BP constitutional law expert?

Have you thought of what will happen when NZ grows up and becomes a Republic, Mr BP constitutional law expert? Even your former beloved Jacinda is a Republican.

Quite stupid post.

Brexit was a vote to ask the people whether they want to exit a contract which had an exit clause. While it was absolutely braindead to do so, I don't see any legal challenges in doing that.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Treaty of Waitangi has to the best of my knowledge no exit clause. If it would have - would this mean all Pakeha (living here based on the treaty) would need to leave NZ immediately after cancelling the contract?

Better use next time the grey matter between your ears if you need to think :) ;

[jonu]

Quite stupid post.

Brexit was a vote to ask the people whether they want to exit a contract which had an exit clause. While it was absolutely braindead to do so, I don't see any legal challenges in doing that.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Treaty of Waitangi has to the best of my knowledge no exit clause. If it would have - would this mean all Pakeha (living here based on the treaty) would need to leave NZ immediately after cancelling the contract?

Better use next time the grey matter between your ears if you need to think :) ;

If the two signatories can't agree on what the Treaty/Tiriti (there's a hint right there) means it will be considered null and void. There's your exit clause. Racist extremists in the Greens, TPM and Labour have set up this situation. Now they will reap their harvest.

The radical new interpretations being sold to us of the Treaty's meaning don't make any sense when you consider who wrote it. Whether Maori understood what they were signing is another matter.

[BlackPeter]

If the two signatories can't agree on what the Treaty/Tiriti (there's a hint right there) means it will be considered null and void. There's your exit clause. Racist extremists in the Greens, TPM and Labour have set up this situation. Now they will reap their harvest.

The radical new interpretations being sold to us of the Treaty's meaning don't make any sense when you consider who wrote it. Whether Maori understood what they were signing is another matter.

So - you are saying that if you and your employer can't agree on the meaning of the contract you both signed, than the contract is null and void? This is a quite funny interpretation of the law.

Look - before you continue with this nonsense I suggest you talk with a real lawyer ... clearly, you have no clue, and its not my job to educate you for free :) ;

[jonu]

So - you are saying that if you and your employer can't agree on the meaning of the contract you both signed, than the contract is null and void? This is a quite funny interpretation of the law.

Look - before you continue with this nonsense I suggest you talk with a real lawyer ... clearly, you have no clue, and its not my job to educate you for free :) ;

Here's a hint for you BlackPeter. Governments make laws. If a government feels it has a mandate to legislate the Treaty to the bin of history, it can. Labour has just tried to incorporate a whole bunch of BS onto the NZ people due to Ardern selling her soul to the Maori caucus and in particular Mahuta.

Well guess what? Ardern and Mahuta have both been sent packing. There's a new sheriff in town and the brakes will be put on the separatist agenda.

Comprendez?

[Baa_Baa]

There's a new sheriff in town and the brakes will be put on the separatist agenda.

Comprendez?

The thing I found most incredible leading up to the election was that the Labour, Greens and particularly the Maori party were all accusing National & Act of being racist. What?

Neither National nor Act put in place the separatist, divisive and race based policies and laws that led us to this awkward and uncomfortable place.

I was intrigued by a caller on talk back who was in her 70's and said "she had never ever heard of racism in New Zealand dialogue", until recently.

I'd have to agree with her, somewhere in the recent government terms racism crept into the nations' psych and I am concerned that it won't go away.

[jonu]

The thing I found most incredible leading up to the election was that the Labour, Greens and particularly the Maori party were all accusing National & Act of being racist. What?

Neither National nor Act put in place the separatist, divisive and race based policies and laws that led us to this awkward and uncomfortable place.

I was intrigued by a caller on talk back who was in her 70's and said "she had never ever heard of racism in New Zealand dialogue", until recently.

I'd have to agree with her, somewhere in the recent government terms racism crept into the nations' psych and I am concerned that it won't go away.

It's all part of the Marxist identity politics agenda. Its end goal is accumulation of power and a squeezing, bit by bit, on personal freedoms for the so called "greater good". Ardern became its poster girl, and she has been rewarded by the club and that will continue.

Interesting that Elon Musk saw fit to comment on Labour's demise. He is well aware of how dangerous the virtue signaling fool Ardern is. Unfortunately the Greens now have a foothold in Auckland and Wellington Central. Strange how those most removed from nature purport to be the greenest. Most removed from reality more likely!

[Getty]

2 very good posts above

[Balance]

Those who introduce racism into NZ want to shut down any discussions or debated about race based policies and preferences by screeching like banshees that to do so is racist!

And the MSM, bribed by $55m of taxpayers’ funds and captured increasingly by woke leftists and losers, actively supported that narrative.

I hope David Seymour sticks to his guns and requires a referendum on the Treaty. If there’s violence, we know who to blame - the racists in Labour, Greens and Maori Party.

[Baa_Baa]

Those who introduce racism into NZ want to shut down any discussions or debated about race based policies and preferences by screeching like banshees that to do so is racist!

...

I hope David Seymour sticks to his guns and requires a referendum on the Treaty. If there’s violence, we know who to blame - the racists in Labour, Greens and Maori Party.

I definitely hope there is no violence, should we replicate South Africa's acknowledgement and then repeal of apartheid (Mandela) and the terrible unintended consequences that achieved little, expect for many of the whites leaving the country in fear of their own safety.

Careful of the path's we choose that lead to unintended consequences. I fear not only for myself, a 5th generation Kiwi, or my children, but moreso for the 160+ other ethnicities of New Zealand who must be wondering WTF is happening here after them becoming residents and citizens?

17% of the population have enjoyed a resurgence and instead of rejoicing, they accuse National and Act, the majority who were voted in, of racism. But neither made the policies or laws that created this division, separatism and latent racism. It beggars belief.

No wonder that they would reject a referendum that exposed them to the will of the other 83% of the population.

[FTG]

17% of the population have enjoyed a resurgence and instead of rejoicing, they accuse National and Act, the majority who were voted in, of racism. But neither made the policies or laws that created this division, separatism and latent racism. It beggars belief.


Not quite right I would suggest Baa Baa. Let's keep some perspective.

Just 2.60% voted for TPM. Yip that's right, just over 58,000 votes! And when giving some of that tiny cohort the benefit of doubt, they aren't ALL likely to be accusing NACT of racism? But yes, granted, the elite & 'disturbed" certainly are.

[blackcap]

Not quite right I would suggest Baa Baa. Let's keep some perspective.

Just 2.60% voted for TPM. Yip that's right, just over 58,000 votes! And when giving some of that tiny cohort the benefit of doubt, they aren't ALL likely to be accusing NACT of racism? But yes, granted, the elite & 'disturbed" certainly are.

Hopefully with Winston and Seymour chipping away at Luxon, we can get rid of the Maori seats once and for all. That will actually help democracy and make the representation a more fair representation. Time for the racist seats to go.

[Baa_Baa]

Not quite right I would suggest Baa Baa. Let's keep some perspective.

Just 2.60% voted for TPM. Yip that's right, just over 58,000 votes! And when giving some of that tiny cohort the benefit of doubt, they aren't ALL likely to be accusing NACT of racism? But yes, granted, the elite & 'disturbed" certainly are.

Take into account the Maori electorates and the total population of Maori, the numbers are higher, but still a small minority. Agree, a tiny cohort however wide the net is spread.

It seems a minority but well connected politically, Maori have seized the narrative. However frustrating that might be to anyone non-Maori and I suspect many Maori as well.

Still, they own the narrative right now and likely will face the consequences of being promoted by this now gone Labour, Greens and Labour government, into division, separatism and latent racism in our great country.

Look, the thing is, I've never felt as though I'm racist against any race, especially against Maori who are my fellow Kiwis, but now I'm apparently lumped into some group who don't agree with race based policies that the previous government have introduced, as a racist!

That's offensive to me, it really upsets and annoys me. I've never been racist and abhor it.

[Balance]

Take into account the Maori electorates and the total population of Maori, the numbers are higher, but still a small minority. Agree, a tiny cohort however wide the net is spread.

It seems a minority but well connected politically, Maori have seized the narrative. However frustrating that might be to anyone non-Maori and I suspect many Maori as well.

Still, they own the narrative right now and likely will face the consequences of being promoted by this now gone Labour, Greens and Labour government, into division, separatism and latent racism in our great country.

Look, the thing is, I've never felt as though I'm racist against any race, especially against Maori who are my fellow Kiwis, but now I'm apparently lumped into some group who don't agree with race based policies that the previous government have introduced, as a racist!

That's offensive to me, it really upsets and annoys me. I've never been racist and abhor it.

You are no racist. Nor are all the NZers who objected to the racist & divisive policies of the Labour government of Ardern & Hipkins.

Read Chris Trotter's piece here as to how Ardern & Labour masterminded the racism narrative to shut down any discussion or debate about their racist policies :

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12767-The-Betrayal-of-NZ-by-Ardern-Hipkins-and-Labour

[BlackPeter]

Here's a hint for you BlackPeter. Governments make laws. If a government feels it has a mandate to legislate the Treaty to the bin of history, it can. Labour has just tried to incorporate a whole bunch of BS onto the NZ people due to Ardern selling her soul to the Maori caucus and in particular Mahuta.

Well guess what? Ardern and Mahuta have both been sent packing. There's a new sheriff in town and the brakes will be put on the separatist agenda.

Comprendez?

Sigh - so, you are proposing to disestablish our democratic and rule based system in order to follow the ugly, loud and shrill shouting crowd? Whats the next you propose to introduce - lynch justice?

Sounds like you, but lucky us - while NZ does not have a constitution, it still does have an independent judiciary. The idiocy you are proposing is inconsistent with our legal system and parliament can not retrospectively and unilaterally change a contract the crown entered into.

Apart from that - the small bunch of revoluzzers proposing to vote whether we want to honour the contract the crown signed or not does not have the numbers in parliament. Just compare - 11 ACT seats vs 110 decent and honest MP's who will follow legal principles.

Can you spot the larger number?

You clearly don't understand the principle of power separation in our western democracy neither the most basic legal principles.

You are an excellent example for why populism is so dangerous - people just give up their brains to follow the loudest shouter in their rabbit hole. Sure - too many populists can create a disgusting mess, but they never will solve any problem.

[jonu]

Sigh - so, you are proposing to disestablish our democratic and rule based system in order to follow the ugly, loud and shrill shouting crowd? Whats the next you propose to introduce - lynch justice?

Sounds like you, but lucky us - while NZ does not have a constitution, it still does have an independent judiciary. The idiocy you are proposing is inconsistent with our legal system and parliament can not retrospectively and unilaterally change a contract the crown entered into.

Apart from that - the small bunch of revoluzzers proposing to vote whether we want to honour the contract the crown signed or not does not have the numbers in parliament. Just compare - 11 ACT seats vs 110 decent and honest MP's who will follow legal principles.

Can you spot the larger number?

You clearly don't understand the principle of power separation in our western democracy neither the most basic legal principles.

You are an excellent example for why populism is so dangerous - people just give up their brains to follow the loudest shouter in their rabbit hole. Sure - too many populists can create a disgusting mess, but they never will solve any problem.

I haven't proposed anything. More comprehension issues.

It's a shame your fixation with populism wasn't a little more tuned to the skullduggery of the populist Ardern, your former paramour. Her woke populism has led to the backlash that is coming. Turns out selfies with the cool kids only works until the grownups showup.

[BlackPeter]

I haven't proposed anything. More comprehension issues.

It's a shame your fixation with populism wasn't a little more tuned to the skullduggery of the populist Ardern, your former paramour. Her woke populism has led to the backlash that is coming. Turns out selfies with the cool kids only works until the grownups showup.

Your memory seems to be as limited as your legal understanding :); I suggest you check my posts on Ardern and Labour before you keep spreading misinformation.

Based on the behaviour of our right wing trolls it feels however that NZ moved from the rain in the eaves. While I didn't particularly like most left wing posters either, they still had much higher standards and they acted based on facts instead of making things up.

Nothing worse than a bunch of bad winners ... (and no, I am not referring to the poster with this name :) ;

[jonu]

Your memory seems to be as limited as your legal understanding :); I suggest you check my posts on Ardern and Labour before you keep spreading misinformation.

Based on the behaviour of our right wing trolls it feels however that NZ moved from the rain in the eaves. While I didn't particularly like most left wing posters either, they still had much higher standards and they acted based on facts instead of making things up.

Nothing worse than a bunch of bad winners ... (and no, I am not referring to the poster with this name :) ;

How far back should we go with your love for Ardern? Before or after you came to your senses? At least you eventually saw the light!

[Daytr]

How far back should we go with your love for Ardern? Before or after you came to your senses? At least you eventually saw the light!

As I have said previously, your fixation / hatred of Ardern is concerning.
This is after all a Greens thread, but somehow again & again you turn the subject to your pet hate project Ardern.

So ACT want to relitigate the Treaty or in your words could consign the treaty to the bin of history.
A treaty the Crown has never honoured. It's very easy for the powerful majority to keep Maori in their place and ignore their obligations or even renege as you have suggested.
I didn't agree with co-governance, but much of the race baiting was purely about poor terminology.
Mighty Whitey is right huh?
Disgusting

[ithaka]

If two parties sign a contract, it is not possible for one of the signatories afterwards to just run a referendum whether they want to stick with their commitments, or whether they prefer to wiggle out - isn't it? Your understanding of law and order is sorely lacking.


It's important to understand that the proposed referendum is seeking clarification of the "Principles of the Treaty" which are a modern day reinterpretation of the original "Articles of the Treaty" which were signed in 1840. ACT is not proposing a referendum on the original signed Treaty document.

Two Treaties of Waitangi: The Articles Treaty and the Principles Treaty - by Elizabeth Rata who is a professor of education at the University of Auckland.

https://democracyproject.nz/2023/10/03/elizabeth-rata-two-treaties-of-waitangi-the-articles-treaty-and-the-principles-treaty/

[BlackPeter]

It's important to understand that the proposed referendum is seeking clarification of the "Principles of the Treaty" which are a modern day reinterpretation of the original "Articles of the Treaty" which were signed in 1840. ACT is not proposing a referendum on the original signed Treaty document.

Two Treaties of Waitangi: The Articles Treaty and the Principles Treaty - by Elizabeth Rata who is a professor of education at the University of Auckland.

https://democracyproject.nz/2023/10/03/elizabeth-rata-two-treaties-of-waitangi-the-articles-treaty-and-the-principles-treaty/

This is an interesting article ... and of course can a parliament change its own laws - be it by referendum or not - as long as is and stays compliant with the commitments the crown used to make.

But I guess this is the critical point. A referendum could only establish how one of the signatories (the crown) sees now its commitments according to the Treaty. It can't unilaterally change the interpretation of the 1840 document.

Latter could only be done by both signatories together and in agreement (which would be the ideal situation) or it could be done by the courts.

Anything else would only result in an endless court battle which the crown would lose (as we had related to unilateral law changes related to sea and foreshore legislation). The only winner would be the advocates - is this why ACT is proposing to bring our country into such a situation?

[jonu]

This is an interesting article ... and of course can a parliament change its own laws - be it by referendum or not - as long as is and stays compliant with the commitments the crown used to make.

But I guess this is the critical point. A referendum could only establish how one of the signatories (the crown) sees now its commitments according to the Treaty. It can't unilaterally change the interpretation of the 1840 document.

Latter could only be done by both signatories together and in agreement (which would be the ideal situation) or it could be done by the courts.

Anything else would only result in an endless court battle which the crown would lose (as we had related to unilateral law changes related to sea and foreshore legislation). The only winner would be the advocates - is this why ACT is proposing to bring our country into such a situation?

Radicals are currently reinterpreting the Treaty. Again, who wrote the thing? Both versions!

[BDL]

It's important to understand that the proposed referendum is seeking clarification of the "Principles of the Treaty" which are a modern day reinterpretation of the original "Articles of the Treaty" which were signed in 1840. ACT is not proposing a referendum on the original signed Treaty document.

Two Treaties of Waitangi: The Articles Treaty and the Principles Treaty - by Elizabeth Rata who is a professor of education at the University of Auckland.

https://democracyproject.nz/2023/10/03/elizabeth-rata-two-treaties-of-waitangi-the-articles-treaty-and-the-principles-treaty/

This is long overdue as some maori "interpretations" are getting far removed from the simple, original treaty meaning.

Maori trying to "game" the treaty, to get more than everyone else, has to stop. It is dividing New Zealand.

[Balance]

This is long overdue as some maori "interpretations" are getting far removed from the simple, original treaty meaning.

Maori trying to "game" the treaty, to get more than everyone else, has to stop. It is dividing New Zealand.

Let’s be fair - not ALL Māoris.

Mostly the elitist Māoris hungry for power and wealth. You don’t see them anywhere near the underprivileged Māoris or NZers giving them a hand up.

[moka]

Take into account the Maori electorates and the total population of Maori, the numbers are higher, but still a small minority. Agree, a tiny cohort however wide the net is spread.

It seems a minority but well connected politically, Maori have seized the narrative. However frustrating that might be to anyone non-Maori and I suspect many Maori as well.

Still, they own the narrative right now and likely will face the consequences of being promoted by this now gone Labour, Greens and Labour government, into division, separatism and latent racism in our great country.

Look, the thing is, I've never felt as though I'm racist against any race, especially against Maori who are my fellow Kiwis, but now I'm apparently lumped into some group who don't agree with race based policies that the previous government have introduced, as a racist!

That's offensive to me, it really upsets and annoys me. I've never been racist and abhor it.For me, the question is not whether you racist or not, but how racist. New Zealand is a racist society. Our society is multicultural, but our values are not, we do not actually embrace multiculturalism or biculturalism. Overall the dominant values of New Zealand are those of the white middle class.

Maori talk about institutional racism or systemic racism. Institutional racism is form of racism that is structured into political and social institutions. It occurs when organizations, institutions, or governments discriminate, either deliberately or indirectly, against certain groups of people to limit their rights. An example of this would be the Covid vaccination policy.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126703647/john-tamihere-v-ministry-of-health-vaccination-fight-goes-to-high-court

John Tamihere has argued that the Government's vaccine programme is failing Māori, and needs Māori health providers to step in to help raise their vaccination rates, which are the lowest by the ethnicity groups it measures.


Actually in most cases calling people racist is counterproductive. It is okay to call out speech, behaviour as racist, but that does not make a person a racist.

[BlackPeter]

Radicals are currently reinterpreting the Treaty. Again, who wrote the thing? Both versions!

Hmm - you sound somewhat hysteric.

Not sure whether it matters who wrote it, but here we are: James Busby and William Hobson (British consul to NZ) wrote a draft treaty which was translated by Henry Williams (a missionary), and his son, Edward, into Māori. So - what?

But the discussion was whether a referendum about the treaty (or its interpretation) would be any helpful. Obviously - it would have no legal standing at all and it could at best capture which feelings some hyped up part of the people who happen to be governed by the legal representative of one of the treaties signatories might have today. So - what?

I absolutely agree in this point with Chris Luxon - a referendum about the interpretation of the treaty would be good for nothing, however it would be very decisive.

Wasn't the plan to unite the people instead of further splitting them?

But - why do we discuss this anyway on the thread of the Green party, and what is the point? Neither the former PM nor the future PM are any interested in this nonsense, and good on them. Just another timewaster from our master of conspiracy theories. You are as wrong with this as you have been with Covid vaccinations or with global warming.

[blackcap]

Maori talk about institutional racism or systemic racism. Institutional racism is form of racism that is structured into political and social institutions. It occurs when organizations, institutions, or governments discriminate, either deliberately or indirectly, against certain groups of people to limit their rights. An example of this would be the Covid vaccination policy.


That's the biggest hogwash I have seen in years. There was so much bending over backwards to get Maori vaccinated, note sure how you come to this conclusion.

Now that a large percentage of Maori did not want to get vaccinated, that I totally get. They remember well what happened to them in the past.

[Daytr]

It's important to understand that the proposed referendum is seeking clarification of the "Principles of the Treaty" which are a modern day reinterpretation of the original "Articles of the Treaty" which were signed in 1840. ACT is not proposing a referendum on the original signed Treaty document.

Two Treaties of Waitangi: The Articles Treaty and the Principles Treaty - by Elizabeth Rata who is a professor of education at the University of Auckland.

https://democracyproject.nz/2023/10/03/elizabeth-rata-two-treaties-of-waitangi-the-articles-treaty-and-the-principles-treaty/

Hi Ithaca, bit how is a referendum going yo resolve that?
A referendum where 82% of the voting population are not Maori.

The vitriol around even using te reo in this country is ugly enough.
What do you think a referendum will do?

There are much better ways for the discussion to be had & Labour should have had them not covertly introduced policies not agreed or campaigned on.

I have seen the ugliness that The Voice referendum brought out in Australia.
Let's not repeat the same mistake here.

[Getty]

Hi Ithaca, bit how is a referendum going yo resolve that?
A referendum where 82% of the voting population are not Maori.

The vitriol around even using te reo in this country is ugly enough.
What do you think a referendum will do?

There are much better ways for the discussion to be had & Labour should have had them not covertly introduced policies not agreed or campaigned on.

I have seen the ugliness that The Voice referendum brought out in Australia.
Let's not repeat the same mistake here.

I'm not convinced having any sort of referendum on the Treaty is a good idea either.

The whole thing is beyond the comprehension of the 'person in the street'

[BDL]

I'm not convinced having any sort of referendum on the Treaty is a good idea either.

The whole thing is beyond the comprehension of the 'person in the street'

No, the treaty is VERY simple, and was designed to be so. A very well thought out and simple document. Everyone should read it.

Radical maori and dumb politicians over the years have made it look complicated, deliberately.

It is not that hard to understand.

No one is proposing to get rid of the Treaty, just to define how some people are interpreting it. (for their own advantage).

Universal "human rights", where all people are treated equally, is the ONLY way forward, and essentially is what the treaty is about.

[Balance]

I'm not convinced having any sort of referendum on the Treaty is a good idea either.

The whole thing is beyond the comprehension of the 'person in the street'

Which is precisely why there should be a period of debate and discussions rather than the current one sided narrative that the Maori version is the only version and anyone questioning or debating its veracity is racist.

Heck, we know who are the racists - the elitist Māoris who has no interest in progressing NZ into a prosperous and fulfilling future for NZ. And they are assisted by the likes of Ardern & Hipkins whose only purpose in life is to be in power and for their own selfish egos.

[Getty]

No, the treaty is VERY usimple, and was designed to be so. A very well thought out and simple document. Everyone should read it.

Radical maori and dumb politicians over the years have made it look complicated, deliberately.

It is not that hard to understand.

No one is proposing to get rid of the Treaty, just to define how some people are interpreting it. (for their own advantage).

Universal "human rights", where all people are treated equally, is the ONLY way forward, and essentially what is what the treaty is about.

You have touched on what I meant by the whole thing.

All manner of axe grinders will emerge if there is any referendum on Treaty matters.

[Daytr]

No, the treaty is VERY simple, and was designed to be so. A very well thought out and simple document. Everyone should read it.

Radical maori and dumb politicians over the years have made it look complicated, deliberately.

It is not that hard to understand.

No one is proposing to get rid of the Treaty, just to define how some people are interpreting it. (for their own advantage).

Universal "human rights", where all people are treated equally, is the ONLY way forward, and essentially is what the treaty is about.

And yet the crown ignored the obvious rights of Maori for the best part of 150 years. Are we surprised there is a reaction from Maori?

Labour went too far one way driven by the Maori caucus. Seymour is proposing going too far in the other direction.
Hopefully Luxon can be a moderating influence.

[Balance]

Disgusting language invoking violence by Greens - imagine if any ACT or National MP used the same language on the Greens? Or on Labour?

Well, they have set the standard and cannot complain in future when language invoking violence is used against at them.

https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350091922/green-light-long-held-red-seat

“They [National] are not going to have it easy. We are going to keep our foot on their necks every single day.”

[BlackPeter]

Disgusting language invoking violence by Greens - imagine if any ACT or National MP used the same language on the Greens? Or on Labour?

Well, they have set the standard and cannot complain in future when language invoking violence is used against at them.

https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350091922/green-light-long-held-red-seat

“They [National] are not going to have it easy. We are going to keep our foot on their necks every single day.”

Maybe they just trying to learn from you, balance :) , though I must admit, they are still using very civilised language compared with some of your absolutely attrocious posts :) ; Is this what hypocrisy looks like ?

[Balance]

Maybe they just trying to learn from you, balance :) , though I must admit, they are still using very civilised language compared with some of your absolutely attrocious posts :) ; Is this what hypocrisy looks like ?

Refer to one post where I invoke the language of that kind of violence against anyone.

In any case, are you suggesting that:

ST vs MSM in the audience reached?

Balance vs a MP?

You certainly are full of flattery for me, BP with my ability to influence. Thank you!

Incredibly sad that you have such low expectations of your MPs and of Labour MPs in particular, judging by your recent comments about them. Your dormant German genes manifesting itself?

[BlackPeter]

Refer to one post where I invoke the language of that kind of violence against anyone.

In any case, are you suggesting that:

ST vs MSM in the audience reached?

Balance vs a MP?

You certainly are full of flattery for me, BP with my ability to influence. Thank you!

Incredibly sad that you have such low expectations of your MPs and of Labour MPs in particular, judging by your recent comments about them. Your dormant German genes manifesting itself?

I assume your education was too limited to help you understand that "having ones foot on somebodys neck" is not a description of physical violence, but figurative speech.

A simple google search would have helped you - maybe you try that next time and educate yourself instead of launching another hysteric post?


The expression "getting your foot on someone's neck" is a metaphorical phrase that is often used to describe a situation where someone exerts dominance, control, or power over another person or group. It implies having a significant advantage or influence over someone and using it to assert authority or suppress them.

And as far as my standards are concerned: No worries, I certainly would never vote for you as MP :).

Apart from that - I'd suggest that a post on sharetrader is as public as anything else on the internet. No need for accepting here a lower standard, despite a bunch of right wing trolls hard trying to do so. An anonymous slur is still a slur.

[Blue Skies]

Balance, I couldn't help noticing your claim,
amongst other things like 'scum" you have told me to - "Go and rot in Hell" which seems pretty violent :) ( post 13585 Labour thread)

[Balance]

Balance, I couldn't help noticing your claim,
amongst other things like 'scum" you have told me to - "Go and rot in Hell" which seems pretty violent :) ( post 13585 Labour thread)

Which of course you know is well-deserved given your post condoning Hamas slaughter of innocent civilians which started the latest round of fighting :


So two wrongs make one right according to Scum #2, Blue Skies.

Go and rot in hell.

https://www.news.com.au/world/live-coverage-israel-strikes-back-at-hamas-after-surprise-attack-hundreds-dead-on-both-sides/news-story/75265208f58aab2f14047e303869a9c9

The disturbing tactics used by Hamas gunmen to kill hundreds of young people at a music festival in southern Israel have been revealed by a witness.

The bodies of 250 people were discovered at the site of the Supernova music festival by emergency response teams today.

[Balance]

I assume your education was too limited to help you understand that "having ones foot on somebodys neck" is not a description of physical violence, but figurative speech.

A simple google search would have helped you - maybe you try that next time and educate yourself instead of launching another hysteric post?



And as far as my standards are concerned: No worries, I certainly would never vote for you as MP :).

Apart from that - I'd suggest that a post on sharetrader is as public as anything else on the internet. No need for accepting here a lower standard, despite a bunch of right wing trolls hard trying to do so. An anonymous slur is still a slur.

Not in today's environment is it in any way appropriate and alright to use such a phrase :

https://c.ndtvimg.com/2020-05/n4jh6a2g_george-floyd_625x300_27_May_20.jpg

[blackcap]

Not in today's environment is it in any way appropriate and alright to use such a phrase :

https://c.ndtvimg.com/2020-05/n4jh6a2g_george-floyd_625x300_27_May_20.jpg

Is that George Flyod the criminal who it now turns out that cause of death was nothing to do with the knee on the neck?

(That said, it was excessive force and for too long, but did not cause death)

[fungus pudding]

Not in today's environment is it in any way appropriate and alright to use such a phrase :

https://c.ndtvimg.com/2020-05/n4jh6a2g_george-floyd_625x300_27_May_20.jpg

Have you never owned a car where the spare wheel is held in a tray underneath the floor at the rear?
It's good to have an assistant.

[BlackPeter]

Not in today's environment is it in any way appropriate and alright to use such a phrase :

https://c.ndtvimg.com/2020-05/n4jh6a2g_george-floyd_625x300_27_May_20.jpg

What a disgusting hypocrite you are.

You never complained about this murderer in police uniform killing an innocent person - and in this context you pull that picture out of your horror cabinet?

Balance, it would be untrue to say that you keep loosing my respect. Nothing left. However - still wondering whether this is your low point - or do you still plan to reveal more disgusting stuff about yourself?

[blackcap]

What a disgusting hypocrite you are.

You never complained about this murderer in police uniform killing an innocent person - and in this context you pull that picture out of your horror cabinet?

Balance, it would be untrue to say that you keep loosing my respect. Nothing left. However - still wondering whether this is your low point - or do you still plan to reveal more disgusting stuff about yourself?

BP, the cop did not murder Flloyd. Any cop that does murder should be held to account.

[Balance]

Is that George Flyod the criminal who it now turns out that cause of death was nothing to do with the knee on the neck?

(That said, it was excessive force and for too long, but did not cause death)


BP, the cop did not murder Flloyd. Any cop that does murder should be held to account.

You trying to rewrite the verdict from the trial which found the officers guilty of murder/man-slaughter?

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/05/31/276-arrested-driver-who-rolled-into-protest-arrested

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/when-george-floyd-death-b2087360.html

Derek Chauvin will spend the next two decades in prison for the murder of George Floyd.

Now, the three other Minneapolis police officers who failed to stop Chauvin from kneeling on Floyd’s neck for more than nine minutes will serve sentences of their own.

https://i.insider.com/5ed837b5f0f4192577780db3?width=2000&format=jpeg&auto=webp

[Balance]

What a disgusting hypocrite you are.

You never complained about this murderer in police uniform killing an innocent person - and in this context you pull that picture out of your horror cabinet?

Balance, it would be untrue to say that you keep loosing my respect. Nothing left. However - still wondering whether this is your low point - or do you still plan to reveal more disgusting stuff about yourself?

How do you know I never complained about the murderer in police uniform?

Your Nazi German dormant gene asserting itself again?

https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106562107-1591121674517200528-user-video-george-floyd-arrest-death-snip-ac-1045p_55e550298d1d9829ec8f3cbe32b0adea-fit-1120w.focal-760x428.jpg?v=1591287377&w=740&h=416&ffmt=webp&vtcrop=y

[Balance]

And while we are on the subject of the Greens & violence, recall what Greens' leader said?

Marama Davidson : it’s “white cis men who cause violence in the world”.

https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/9e89565e2eb6f2c4c4d890e7a8f6fff5

Completely untrue but that hypocrite Hipkins accepted her explanation - says a lot about just how woke and disgusting MSM & the leftist elitist politicians are.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/131632938/fact-checking-marama-davidsons-white-cis-men-claims-and-followup-statement

And has anyone ever heard her condemn the killing of Maori babies by their whanau & then, allowed to get away because of non-cooperation with the murder investigation?

Or for that matter, condemnation by any leftist ministers and MPs?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/sbKyiZyyoxXqhh-PoF9Ld3D0N6o=/1440x961/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/IBZVOALSSNDUNO6ACKZHTSHGAI.jpg

[Blue Skies]

Which of course you know is well-deserved given your post condoning Hamas slaughter of innocent civilians which started the latest round of fighting :


I seldom bother engaging with you since its hopeless trying to have any sort of rational debate with someone who has clearly lost their grip on reality.

[Balance]

I seldom bother engaging with you since its hopeless trying to have any sort of rational debate with someone who has clearly lost their grip on reality.

You just keep to your support of Hamas massacre of innocent civilians.

Only scums support Hamas.

[moka]

And while we are on the subject of the Greens & violence, recall what Greens' leader said?

Marama Davidson : it’s “white cis men who cause violence in the world”.

Completely untrue but that hypocrite Hipkins accepted her explanation - says a lot about just how woke and disgusting MSM & the leftist elitist politicians are.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/131632938/fact-checking-marama-davidsons-white-cis-men-claims-and-followup-statement

And has anyone ever heard her condemn the killing of Maori babies by their whanau & then, allowed to get away because of non-cooperation with the murder investigation?

Or for that matter, condemnation by any leftist ministers and MPs?

The article you posted a link to says that New Zealand outranks other comparable countries when it comes to rates of family violence, particularly intimate partner violence and abuse.
And it’s predominantly perpetrated by men, against women and children.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/131...owup-statement (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/131632938/fact-checking-marama-davidsons-white-cis-men-claims-and-followup-statement)

Auckland University associate professor of sociology Vivienne Elizabeth has previously told Stuff while abuse is usually measured in terms of physical assault the defining feature of many oppressive relationships is actually coercive control – a pattern of behaviour used to isolate, scare and entrap.
Family violence in particular is difficult to quantify because it takes many forms and is under-reported. But we know it’s the largest driver of violent crime in Aotearoa New Zealand. And it’s predominantly perpetrated by men, against women and children.

[Balance]

The article you posted a link to says that New Zealand outranks other comparable countries when it comes to rates of family violence, particularly intimate partner violence and abuse.
And it’s predominantly perpetrated by men, against women and children.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/131...owup-statement (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/131632938/fact-checking-marama-davidsons-white-cis-men-claims-and-followup-statement)

Auckland University associate professor of sociology Vivienne Elizabeth has previously told Stuff while abuse is usually measured in terms of physical assault the defining feature of many oppressive relationships is actually coercive control – a pattern of behaviour used to isolate, scare and entrap.
Family violence in particular is difficult to quantify because it takes many forms and is under-reported. But we know it’s the largest driver of violent crime in Aotearoa New Zealand. And it’s predominantly perpetrated by men, against women and children.

Marama Davidson : it’s “white cis men who cause violence in the world”.

[moka]

Warped masculinity is fuelling NZ's fatal family violence problem.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/112594136/the-homicide-report-lays-bare-new-zealands-problem-with-family-violence
(https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/112594136/the-homicide-report-lays-bare-new-zealands-problem-with-family-violence)
New Zealand consistently outranks other developed countries when it comes to rates of family violence, particularly intimate partner violence and child abuse.
Neville Robertson, a community psychologist and former senior lecturer at Waikato University. But after 30 years of researching domestic violence and working with perpetrators, he says, one common trait he's noticed among all violent men is their belief in male superiority. "They have a very hierarchical view of relationships and it's one where men are seen as more important, the breadwinner. They're very reluctant, or unable, to conceive that relationships could be equal."

They believe that men are decision makers, for example, and women are responsible for child care, he says. "Many men will use violence to protect those privileges. If [their partner] leaves, for example, they'll protect those privileges."
New Zealand has bred generations of men who are unable to express their feelings: "So they act out in super masculine ways just to solidify their claims to masculine credentials."

Violence against women and children isn't part of traditional Māori culture. Rather, the violence within whānau we see today reflects the patriarchal norms of the colonising culture, as well as trauma from widespread fragmentation of Māori social structures that were enforced during and after colonisation, according to the FVDRC.

[Balance]

Warped masculinity is fuelling NZ's fatal family violence problem.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/112594136/the-homicide-report-lays-bare-new-zealands-problem-with-family-violence
(https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/112594136/the-homicide-report-lays-bare-new-zealands-problem-with-family-violence)
New Zealand consistently outranks other developed countries when it comes to rates of family violence, particularly intimate partner violence and child abuse.
Neville Robertson, a community psychologist and former senior lecturer at Waikato University. But after 30 years of researching domestic violence and working with perpetrators, he says, one common trait he's noticed among all violent men is their belief in male superiority. "They have a very hierarchical view of relationships and it's one where men are seen as more important, the breadwinner. They're very reluctant, or unable, to conceive that relationships could be equal."

They believe that men are decision makers, for example, and women are responsible for child care, he says. "Many men will use violence to protect those privileges. If [their partner] leaves, for example, they'll protect those privileges."
New Zealand has bred generations of men who are unable to express their feelings: "So they act out in super masculine ways just to solidify their claims to masculine credentials."

Violence against women and children isn't part of traditional Māori culture. Rather, the violence within whānau we see today reflects the patriarchal norms of the colonising culture, as well as trauma from widespread fragmentation of Māori social structures that were enforced during and after colonisation, according to the FVDRC.

Marama Davidson : it’s “white cis men who cause violence in the world”.

[Balance]

And while we are on the subject of the Greens & violence, recall what Greens' leader said?

Marama Davidson : it’s “white cis men who cause violence in the world”.

https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/9e89565e2eb6f2c4c4d890e7a8f6fff5

Completely untrue but that hypocrite Hipkins accepted her explanation - says a lot about just how woke and disgusting MSM & the leftist elitist politicians are.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/131632938/fact-checking-marama-davidsons-white-cis-men-claims-and-followup-statement

And has anyone ever heard her condemn the killing of Maori babies by their whanau & then, allowed to get away because of non-cooperation with the murder investigation?

Or for that matter, condemnation by any leftist ministers and MPs?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/sbKyiZyyoxXqhh-PoF9Ld3D0N6o=/1440x961/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/IBZVOALSSNDUNO6ACKZHTSHGAI.jpg

The uncle of the Lower Hutt toddler killed by blunt force trauma says Oranga Tamariki let their whānau down after a complaint he laid 11 months ago achieved nothing.

Ruthless-Empire died on October 22 after he was taken to Hutt Hospital in Wellington in an unresponsive state.

A post-mortem revealed he had died due to blunt force trauma and had several injuries and bruising on his body. Police said the injuries were not accidental, and believe they were inflicted up to 12 hours before he died.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/133215639/baby-ru-death-uncle-says-he-made-a-formal-complaint-to-oranga-tamariki-almost-a-year-ago

https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/4/z/7/h/6/b/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.1420x800 .27b9uf.png/1698801680923.jpg?format=pjpg&optimize=medium

[Blue Skies]

You just keep to your support of Hamas massacre of innocent civilians.

Only scums support Hamas.


I understand why you're always so angry, - its because you see things that aren't there, an extreme polarisation which results in a distorted view of anything that you perceive as questioning your rigid inflexible view of your world.




I've never for condoned Hamas any more than you have.

What I said, & continue to stand by, was-

"All these years (75 years) the West has continued to look the other way, & ignored the human rights abuses, the apartheid state, the dispossession of their homeland, little wonder Palestinians feel so desperate & completely abandoned by the West.
To some extent the West must bear some responsibility for the continuing cycle of violence & counter violence & the current inexcusable atrocity by Hamas."


These latest Hamas atrocities & the human catastrophe unfolding in Gaza didn't just start now & come out of no where, they're a continuing cycle of violence which has been going on for decades.

[moka]

Refer to one post where I invoke the language of that kind of violence against anyone.

Your dormant German genes manifesting itself?Generally you use personal insults and attacks, such as the one above, which is a form of violence and a precursor to physical violence.
As the German-Swiss poet, novelist and painter Hermann Hesse once said: “If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us.”

People who frequently use insults should understand that things are not only as they see them and that they are not possessors of an absolute truth that allows them to judge the others with arrogance.

[moka]

I've never for condoned Hamas any more than you have.

What I said, & continue to stand by, was-

"All these years (75 years) the West has continued to look the other way, & ignored the human rights abuses, the apartheid state, the dispossession of their homeland, little wonder Palestinians feel so desperate & completely abandoned by the West.
To some extent the West must bear some responsibility for the continuing cycle of violence & counter violence & the current inexcusable atrocity by Hamas."


These latest Hamas atrocities & the human catastrophe unfolding in Gaza didn't just start now & come out of no where, they're a continuing cycle of violence which has been going on for decades.I agree the West has continued to look the other way, & ignored the human rights abuses in Palestine.

Dr. Gabor Maté is a Hungarian-Canadian physician who specializes in childhood development and trauma, and their potential lifelong effects.
He is also a Jewish Holocaust survivor who has written extensively about the events.
He has recently broken his silence over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which he describes as the longest ongoing ethnic cleansing operation in the recent and present centuries, the ongoing attempt to destroy Palestinian nationhood.
He believes that there is no understanding Gaza out of context, and that context is the ongoing attempt to destroy Palestinian nationhood.
He also believes that the policies of Israel are not compatible with any desire for a just peace, and that the Palestinians lack the military power of Israel.
He believes that the mutual pain in Israel and Palestine is so acute that its citizens are forced to act out in an endless cycle of perpetration and retribution.

https://www.the-express.com/news/world-news/116862/holocaust-survivor-gabor-mate-israel-palestine

[moka]

Dr. Gabor Maté broke his silence over the weekend in a “long overdue” conversation about the latest round of escalating violence in Israel-Palestine that began earlier this month.

https://www.the-express.com/news/world-news/116862/holocaust-survivor-gabor-mate-israel-palestine
(https://www.the-express.com/news/world-news/116862/holocaust-survivor-gabor-mate-israel-palestine)
Dr. Maté says that the October 7 attack was an “unjustifiable atrocity and tragedy” that was “historically reminiscent of other assaults that Jews have experienced throughout history.”

He says it's “a very difficult” and “emotional” conversation because it “brings up so much history, pain, and trauma,” which makes it “difficult to engage with the rational part of our minds.”
“From that point of view, the pain, the fear, the rage, and even the desire for revenge are totally understandable on the emotional side,” he says.
However, he says the issue is that in times like these when emotions are high it is “difficult” to see and acknowledge the “other side.”

He quotes from an Ha’artez article that Israeli journalist Amira Hass – who has been covering the daily atrocities committed in the West Bank for three decades – wrote following the attack: “In a few days, Israelis what Palestinians have experienced as a matter of routine for decades and are still experiencing - military incursions, death, cruelty, slain children, bodies piled up on the road, siege, fear, anxiety over loved ones, captivity and searing humiliation.”

He adds to her point: “History did not begin on October the 7th. If our intention is to move forward and create some basis for peace, we will have to be able to understand the experience of the ‘other.'"

To provide historical context, he mentions the Nakba in 1948 – Arabic for “catastrophe” – when 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from their historic land following Israel’s independence.

“Without going through the long history - I will only tell you that we have to ask ourselves: What fed such hatred, such desire for revenge, on the part of those people that broke out of Gaza?” he asks rhetorically, noting that Israeli sociologist Baruch Kimberling has called Gaza "the largest concentration camp in the world."

He adds: “None of this justifies it, again, but, I’m telling you, if you’re going to move forward on this, we have to be able to understand not just our own emotional reactions but also the emotions and circumstances that fuel the emotions of the other side.”

[whatsup]

I understand why you're always so angry, - its because you see things that aren't there, an extreme polarisation which results in a distorted view of anything that you perceive as questioning your rigid inflexible view of your world.




I've never for condoned Hamas any more than you have.

What I said, & continue to stand by, was-

"All these years (75 years) the West has continued to look the other way, & ignored the human rights abuses, the apartheid state, the dispossession of their homeland, little wonder Palestinians feel so desperate & completely abandoned by the West.
To some extent the West must bear some responsibility for the continuing cycle of violence & counter violence & the current inexcusable atrocity by Hamas."


These latest Hamas atrocities & the human catastrophe unfolding in Gaza didn't just start now & come out of no where, they're a continuing cycle of violence which has been going on for decades.

So sad and so true, IMHO there will be NO PEACE in that part of the world until there is a two party country /system, who implements it and how it would work is the question.
Israel has to come to the party and make this work or the fighting will go on for another 100 years and bankrupt it.

[Blue Skies]

So sad and so true, IMHO there will be NO PEACE in that part of the world until there is a two party country /system, who implements it and how it would work is the question.
Israel has to come to the party and make this work or the fighting will go on for another 100 years and bankrupt it.


Exactly, right now Netanyahu is creating more Hamas militants/terrorists (whatever name you want to give them) than he's killing, it's called counterinsurgency mathematics.
All of the 8,000 Palestinians who have been killed by Israel so far will have relatives, & Hamas will be recruiting them as fast as possible.

Military responses to complex issues never work.
When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 to smash the PLO with thousands of tanks & soldiers, Hezbollah was created.
When Israel launched an offensive into Lebanon in 2006 to kill Hezbollah leaders & militants, as a result Hezbollah is far stronger today.
The US invasion & occupation of Iraq in 2003, ultimately resulted in a major civil war in Iraq & the creation of ISIS

A 2 State political solution is the only solution which will bring peace & stability, but the US has really lost it's moral authority as a neutral party to force the 2 sides together, since it vetoed the UN General Assembly's 128 Nation vote For v 12 Against, for a humanitarian ceasefire, and its total support & surging supply of advanced weapons to Israel (while at the same time it supplies Ukraine with weapons to repel Russia ).

[jonu]

Exactly, right now Netanyahu is creating more Hamas militants/terrorists (whatever name you want to call them) than he's killing, it's called counterinsurgency mathematics.
All of the 8,000 Palestinians who have been killed by Israel so far will have relatives, & Hamas will be recruiting them as fast as possible.

Military responses to complex issues never work.
When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 to smash the PLO with thousands of tanks & soldiers, Hezbollah was created.
When Israel launched an offensive into Lebanon in 2006 to kill Hezbollah leaders & militants, as a result Hezbollah is far stronger today.
The US invasion & occupation of Iraq in 2003, ultimately resulted in a major civil war in Iraq & the creation of ISIS

A 2 State political solution is the only solution which will bring peace & stability, but the US has really lost it's moral authority as a neutral party to force the 2 sides together, since it vetoed the UN General Assembly's 128 Nation vote For v 12 Against, for a humanitarian ceasefire, and its total support & surging supply of advanced weapons to Israel (while at the same time it supplies Ukraine with weapons to repel Russia ).

Much of what you say is true BlueSkies, but it's not a one-sided problem. I didn't see a mention of Iran, who will be behind Hamas' latest atrocity. Sadly there are powers behind the scenes who have no wish for peace and that will agitate for the opposite.

[Balance]

Dr. Gabor Maté broke his silence over the weekend in a “long overdue” conversation about the latest round of escalating violence in Israel-Palestine that began earlier this month.

https://www.the-express.com/news/world-news/116862/holocaust-survivor-gabor-mate-israel-palestine
(https://www.the-express.com/news/world-news/116862/holocaust-survivor-gabor-mate-israel-palestine)
Dr. Maté says that the October 7 attack was an “unjustifiable atrocity and tragedy” that was “historically reminiscent of other assaults that Jews have experienced throughout history.”

He says it's “a very difficult” and “emotional” conversation because it “brings up so much history, pain, and trauma,” which makes it “difficult to engage with the rational part of our minds.”
“From that point of view, the pain, the fear, the rage, and even the desire for revenge are totally understandable on the emotional side,” he says.
However, he says the issue is that in times like these when emotions are high it is “difficult” to see and acknowledge the “other side.”

He quotes from an Ha’artez article that Israeli journalist Amira Hass – who has been covering the daily atrocities committed in the West Bank for three decades – wrote following the attack: “In a few days, Israelis what Palestinians have experienced as a matter of routine for decades and are still experiencing - military incursions, death, cruelty, slain children, bodies piled up on the road, siege, fear, anxiety over loved ones, captivity and searing humiliation.”

He adds to her point: “History did not begin on October the 7th. If our intention is to move forward and create some basis for peace, we will have to be able to understand the experience of the ‘other.'"

To provide historical context, he mentions the Nakba in 1948 – Arabic for “catastrophe” – when 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from their historic land following Israel’s independence.

“Without going through the long history - I will only tell you that we have to ask ourselves: What fed such hatred, such desire for revenge, on the part of those people that broke out of Gaza?” he asks rhetorically, noting that Israeli sociologist Baruch Kimberling has called Gaza "the largest concentration camp in the world."

He adds: “None of this justifies it, again, but, I’m telling you, if you’re going to move forward on this, we have to be able to understand not just our own emotional reactions but also the emotions and circumstances that fuel the emotions of the other side.”

Please continue with your debate here as this is the thread for Greens politics:

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12774-Palestinian-Israeli-Conflict&p=1028006#post1028006

[Balance]

So sad and so true, IMHO there will be NO PEACE in that part of the world until there is a two party country /system, who implements it and how it would work is the question.
Israel has to come to the party and make this work or the fighting will go on for another 100 years and bankrupt it.

Please continue with your debate here as this is the thread for Greens politics:

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12774-Palestinian-Israeli-Conflict&p=1028006#post1028006

[Balance]

Exactly, right now Netanyahu is creating more Hamas militants/terrorists (whatever name you want to give them) than he's killing, it's called counterinsurgency mathematics.
All of the 8,000 Palestinians who have been killed by Israel so far will have relatives, & Hamas will be recruiting them as fast as possible.

Military responses to complex issues never work.
When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 to smash the PLO with thousands of tanks & soldiers, Hezbollah was created.
When Israel launched an offensive into Lebanon in 2006 to kill Hezbollah leaders & militants, as a result Hezbollah is far stronger today.
The US invasion & occupation of Iraq in 2003, ultimately resulted in a major civil war in Iraq & the creation of ISIS

A 2 State political solution is the only solution which will bring peace & stability, but the US has really lost it's moral authority as a neutral party to force the 2 sides together, since it vetoed the UN General Assembly's 128 Nation vote For v 12 Against, for a humanitarian ceasefire, and its total support & surging supply of advanced weapons to Israel (while at the same time it supplies Ukraine with weapons to repel Russia ).

Please continue with your debate here as this is the thread for Greens politics:

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12774-Palestinian-Israeli-Conflict&p=1028006#post1028006

[Balance]

Much of what you say is true BlueSkies, but it's not a one-sided problem. I didn't see a mention of Iran, who will be behind Hamas' latest atrocity. Sadly there are powers behind the scenes who have no wish for peace and that will agitate for the opposite.

Please continue with your debate here as this is the thread for Greens politics:

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12774-Palestinian-Israeli-Conflict&p=1028006#post1028006

[BlackPeter]

How do you know I never complained about the murderer in police uniform?

Your Nazi German dormant gene asserting itself again?

https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106562107-1591121674517200528-user-video-george-floyd-arrest-death-snip-ac-1045p_55e550298d1d9829ec8f3cbe32b0adea-fit-1120w.focal-760x428.jpg?v=1591287377&w=740&h=416&ffmt=webp&vtcrop=y

If you desire to continue with your disgusting personal attacks on other posters, please send them directly as PM to the moderator, as this is the thread for Greens politics :) ;

[Balance]

If you desire to continue with your disgusting personal attacks on other posters, please send them directly as PM to the moderator, as this is the thread for Greens politics :) ;

He without sin, let him cast the first stone.

[nztx]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nz-election-final-result-live-updates-special-votes-counted-nationals-christopher-luxon-to-negotiate-with-act-and-winston-peters/S56WOQ3QUJE57IZAKJTFUDFZUE/

Green co-leader Marama Davidson's message for National: "Just try and come for the Treaty"

;)

[iceman]

"https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nz-ele...IZAKJTFUDFZUE/

Green co-leader Marama Davidson's message for National: "Just try and come for the Treaty"

As if we needed any more proof that The Greens priority is not the environment and hasn't been for many years.

[Getty]

"https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nz-ele...IZAKJTFUDFZUE/

Green co-leader Marama Davidson's message for National: "Just try and come for the Treaty"

As if we needed any more proof that The Greens priority is not the environment and hasn't been for many years.

Yes, but does that opinion get conveyed to, or dawn upon half the people that vote for them?

[Balance]

"https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nz-ele...IZAKJTFUDFZUE/

Green co-leader Marama Davidson's message for National: "Just try and come for the Treaty"

As if we needed any more proof that The Greens priority is not the environment and hasn't been for many years.

That's okay - NZ needs a proper debate and a 1981 Springbok tour type upheaval is actually long overdue.

https://thehorsemafia.org/ns/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/8E94B207-4581-4E6E-A343-2D4590809595.jpeg

[Balance]

Chloe Swarbrick screeching Hamas’ rallying cry like a banshee on Saturday pro-Palestine rally :

“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&t=3894&v=ZmwG7WaYyVE&feature=youtu.be

TV3 approached Chloe, Marama (who was there with her) and Greens for comment about using the Hamas’ rallying cry but no reply so far.

Disgusting, repugnant and showing that she & the Greens support terrorists and Hamas.

[nztx]

Chloe Swarbrick screeching Hamas’ rallying cry like a banshee on Saturday pro-Palestine rally :

“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&t=3894&v=ZmwG7WaYyVE&feature=youtu.be

TV3 approached Chloe, Marama (who was there with her) and Greens for comment about using the Hamas’ rallying cry but no reply so far.

Disgusting, repugnant and showing that she & the Greens support terrorists and Hamas.



Paid Leave from Parliament to go join them might be a good start, along with a few of her comrades :)

[Balance]

Chloe Swarbrick screeching Hamas’ rallying cry like a banshee on Saturday pro-Palestine rally :

“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&t=3894&v=ZmwG7WaYyVE&feature=youtu.be

TV3 approached Chloe, Marama (who was there with her) and Greens for comment about using the Hamas’ rallying cry but no reply so far.

Disgusting, repugnant and showing that she & the Greens support terrorists and Hamas.

And where is James Shaw, co-leader of Greens?

Hiding in the closet like a eunuch, castrated into silence to serve the racist & sexist leadership.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/green-party-mp-chloe-swarbrick-sparks-controversy-after-use-of-pro-palestine-slogan-at-auckland-rally/NPLTEUQRHVCANERKBFZXTZ73DA/

[Blue Skies]

Deleted due problem with format

[Blue Skies]

Chloe Swarbrick screeching Hamas’ rallying cry like a banshee on Saturday pro-Palestine rally :

“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&t=3894&v=ZmwG7WaYyVE&feature=youtu.be

TV3 approached Chloe, Marama (who was there with her) and Greens for comment about using the Hamas’ rallying cry but no reply so far.

Disgusting, repugnant and showing that she & the Greens support terrorists and Hamas.







What nonsense you write saying Chloe Swarbrick & the Greens support terrorists & Hamas.

You just sound like someone desperate to suppress any criticism of Netanyahu & the Israeli military & distract from the monstrous indiscriminate killing over 10,000 trapped civilians, including well over 4,000 innocent children, hundreds of doctors & nurses, pregnant women, in the last 4 weeks & depriving over 2 million trapped people of clean drinking water, food, electricity & medicine, bombing hospitals & ambulances & schools & refugee camps. There are over 1,500 children missing, presumed buried under tons of concrete apartments, schools bombed to rubble.

She's calling for a humanitarian ceasefire as we all should be, & basic human rights for the Palestinian people both in the West Bank & Gaza Strip who struggle under inhuman conditions & have been ignored by the West for too long.

[blackcap]

Paid Leave from Parliament to go join them might be a good start, along with a few of her comrades :)

I would love for her to wear a "homos for Hamas" shirt in Gaza. I would gladly pay for her to take a one way ticket there....

[blackcap]

What nonsense you write saying Chloe Swarbrick & the Greens support terrorists & Hamas.

You just sound like someone desperate to suppress any criticism of Netanyahu & the Israeli military & distract from the monstrous indiscriminate killing over 10,000 trapped civilians, including well over 4,000 innocent children, hundreds of doctors & nurses, pregnant women, in the last 4 weeks & depriving over 2 million trapped people of clean drinking water, food, electricity & medicine, bombing hospitals & ambulances & schools & refugee camps. There are over 1,500 children missing, presumed buried under tons of concrete apartments, schools bombed to rubble.

She's calling for a humanitarian ceasefire as we all should be, & basic human rights for the Palestinian people both in the West Bank & Gaza Strip who struggle under inhuman conditions & have been ignored by the West for too long.

By using the phrase "from the river to the sea" that makes her a filthy enabler. She disgusts me. Although, I think she is chanting out of ignorance rather than anything else. Useless parrot.

[Getty]

What nonsense you write saying Chloe Swarbrick & the Greens support terrorists & Hamas.

You just sound like someone desperate to suppress any criticism of Netanyahu & the Israeli military & distract from the monstrous indiscriminate killing over 10,000 trapped civilians, including well over 4,000 innocent children, hundreds of doctors & nurses, pregnant women, in the last 4 weeks & depriving over 2 million trapped people of clean drinking water, food, electricity & medicine, bombing hospitals & ambulances & schools & refugee camps. There are over 1,500 children missing, presumed buried under tons of concrete apartments, schools bombed to rubble.

She's calling for a humanitarian ceasefire as we all should be, & basic human rights for the Palestinian people both in the West Bank & Gaza Strip who struggle under inhuman conditions & have been ignored by the West for too long.

Would any of those bad things have happened if Hamas had not launched its bloody attack on Israel?

Was Israel supposed to say oh that's okay, we don't mind.
Give your selves some time to regroup now, so you can launch another attack on us?

[blackcap]

Interestingly, Egypt which shares a border with Gaza, are not accepting any Palestinian refugees. Why would that be?

[Blue Skies]

Interestingly, Egypt which shares a border with Gaza, are not accepting any Palestinian refugees. Why would that be?


Because there have been some who have proposed the idea Egypt gives up it's Sinai Peninsular to make a homeland for the Palestinians & once Egypt opens the gates to large numbers of refugees, they would be faced with millions of Palestinians escaping the horrors of being bombed, crossing the border into Egypt and settling there permanently.

There's a fear even after a ceasefire Israel would continue to make life so unbearable for Palestinians in the West Bank & Gaza they would never go back, that the West would submit to Israel, & Egypt would be faced with the major problem of a flood of up to 5 million Palestinians settling in the Sinai.
Egypt is not a wealthy country & an influx of a population of millions of displaced refugees with nothing but what they are carrying would cause huge problems.
It would be like NZ saying we'll give up the top half of the South Island so several million refugees could come and settle here.

Pressure must be put on the extreme elements of Israel & the Palestinians to form a 2 State solution within the area which prior to 1949 was known as Palestine.

[blackcap]

The stark irony is that Chloe would never be able to be a practicing lesbian in any other Middle Eastern country than Israel. She would likely be tossed off a building in a "free" Hamas-ruled palestine.

[Balance]

The stark irony is that Chloe would never be able to be a practicing lesbian in any other Middle Eastern country than Israel. She would likely be tossed off a building in a "free" Hamas-ruled palestine.

Never a word from her when 1,400 Israelis were slaughtered and massacred by Hamas - not a word.

Never a word from her about the women in Iran brutalised and murdered for not wearing the hijab.

That’s Chloe - Jacinda Ardern #2. Hypocrite personified.

[BlackPeter]

Would any of those bad things have happened if Hamas had not launched its bloody attack on Israel?

Was Israel supposed to say oh that's okay, we don't mind.
Give your selves some time to regroup now, so you can launch another attack on us?

It is more complicated than that.

Would Hamas even exist if Israel would not suppress the Palestinian people for now more than 75 years and keep them under inhumane conditions basically locked up in a small piece of desert instead of integrating them and allowing them to lead a normal life in dignity?
Would Hamas exist if Israel would not steal every year more Palestinean land Israel has occupied and give it against international law to hard right Jewish settlers who behave as if the land would be theirs?
Would Hamas be so strong if the crook Trump would not have supported the crook Nethanjahu in annexing the Paelstinian part of Jerusalem (East-Jerusalem) and declare it to Israels capital?

Hamas is a terror organisation without democratic legitimacy - no doubt about that, but Nethanjahu is as well a populist crook (like Trump used to be) who is working hard on dismantling the democratic framework in Israel for his personal benefits - and he stays in power by supporting the undemocratic extreme right in Israel. He enables Jewish Nazis to steal Palestinian land and continuously drive out more and more Palestinians out of the country of their parents.

What we now see is what happens if you enable crooks on both sides of a conflict to run the show - everybody suffers.

[Logen Ninefingers]

‘Jewish Nazis’. Just let that term sink in and then consider the person using the term, who subjects others to ‘negative reputation’ attacks, calls others ‘trolls’, and says of others ‘that says a lot about you’. Well when you have someone calling the people who were the victims of the Holocaust ‘Jewish Nazis’, then that says a lot about them & their complete lack of a moral compass.

There has never been a state called Palestine. The region was ruled for centuries by the Ottoman Empire, and then after its overthrow there was an archaic term ‘Palestine’ resurrected by the British and given to that area which was under their ‘Mandate’ (rule). The people described as ‘Palestinian’ are the same Arab people that populate the Middle East. Why do we not refer to then as Arabs in the same way that we refer to Jewish people as Jews?
The UN sought a ‘two state’ solution to solve intractable problems, there was to be a Jewish state & an Arab state, and Jerusalem was to be some sort of shared neutral zone. The Arabs fiercely opposed the partition plan - which then lead to war which the Zionists won. Ever since that time, the state of Israel has been fighting for its life against the Arabs.
These days Iran maintains its proxy forces in Gaza and Lebanon solely to be a perennial thorn in Israels side. Gaza and the West Bank are simply pawns in Iran’s game, the plight if the people living there is useful for propaganda purposes to rally Arab opposition to Israel. So long as Gaza is under the control of Hamas extremists - proxies of Iran - there can never be peace, can never be a two state solution which would bring peace. If a two state solution were adopted, Israel’s survival would be guaranteed. This is the last thing that Iran and Arab / Islamic extremists want. They still seek the destruction of Israel. The global Left are consequently also pawns and proxies of Iran; they seek to portray Arab people living in Gaza and the West Bank as somehow ‘indigenous’ and apply their same warped views as regards ‘colonisers’ as they do to places like New Zealand. There were Jews living in that area of the Levant for thousands of years, so they cannot be dismissed as blow ins from some other part of the planet.

[blackcap]

‘Jewish Nazis’. Just let that term sink in and then consider the person using the term, who subjects others to ‘negative reputation’ attacks, calls others ‘trolls’, and says of others ‘that says a lot about you’. Well when you have someone calling the people who were the victims of the Holocaust ‘Jewish Nazis’, then that says a lot about them & their complete lack of a moral compass.

There has never been a state called Palestine. The region was ruled for centuries by the Ottoman Empire, and then after its overthrow there was an archaic term ‘Palestine’ resurrected by the British and given to that area which was under their ‘Mandate’ (rule). The people described as ‘Palestinian’ are the same Arab people that populate the Middle East. Why do we not refer to then as Arabs in the same way that we refer to Jewish people as Jews?
The UN sought a ‘two state’ solution to solve intractable problems, there was to be a Jewish state & an Arab state, and Jerusalem was to be some sort of shared neutral zone. The Arabs fiercely opposed the partition plan - which then lead to war which the Zionists won. Ever since that time, the state of Israel has been fighting for its life against the Arabs.
These days Iran maintains its proxy forces in Gaza and Lebanon solely to be a perennial thorn in Israels side. Gaza and the West Bank are simply pawns in Iran’s game, the plight if the people living there is useful for propaganda purposes to rally Arab opposition to Israel. So long as Gaza is under the control of Hamas extremists - proxies of Iran - there can never be peace, can never be a two state solution which would bring peace. If a two state solution were adopted, Israel’s survival would be guaranteed. This is the last thing that Iran and Arab / Islamic extremists want. They still seek the destruction of Israel. The global Left are consequently also pawns and proxies of Iran; they seek to portray Arab people living in Gaza and the West Bank as somehow ‘indigenous’ and apply their same warped views as regards ‘colonisers’ as they do to places like New Zealand. There were Jews living in that area of the Levant for thousands of years, so they cannot be dismissed as blow ins from some other part of the planet.

That's the thing Logen. The Palestinians are not indigenous. If anything the Jews are. A well considered post on your part. Iran is meddling.

Black Peter using the term Jewish Nazi's. Words fail me.

I have an Arab ("Palestinian") adopted cousin who lives in Israel. She is a supporter of the IDF. As am I. Hamas needs to be wiped from the face of the earth. Scum.

[Balance]

That's the thing Logen. The Palestinians are not indigenous. If anything the Jews are. A well considered post on your part. Iran is meddling.

Black Peter using the term Jewish Nazi's. Words fail me.

I have an Arab ("Palestinian") adopted cousin who lives in Israel. She is a supporter of the IDF. As am I. Hamas needs to be wiped from the face of the earth. Scum.

BlackPeter revealing his dormant German Nazi genes.

[BlackPeter]

‘Jewish Nazis’. Just let that term sink in and then consider the person using the term, who subjects others to ‘negative reputation’ attacks, calls others ‘trolls’, and says of others ‘that says a lot about you’. Well when you have someone calling the people who were the victims of the Holocaust ‘Jewish Nazis’, then that says a lot about them & their complete lack of a moral compass.

There has never been a state called Palestine. The region was ruled for centuries by the Ottoman Empire, and then after its overthrow there was an archaic term ‘Palestine’ resurrected by the British and given to that area which was under their ‘Mandate’ (rule). The people described as ‘Palestinian’ are the same Arab people that populate the Middle East. Why do we not refer to then as Arabs in the same way that we refer to Jewish people as Jews?
The UN sought a ‘two state’ solution to solve intractable problems, there was to be a Jewish state & an Arab state, and Jerusalem was to be some sort of shared neutral zone. The Arabs fiercely opposed the partition plan - which then lead to war which the Zionists won. Ever since that time, the state of Israel has been fighting for its life against the Arabs.
These days Iran maintains its proxy forces in Gaza and Lebanon solely to be a perennial thorn in Israels side. Gaza and the West Bank are simply pawns in Iran’s game, the plight if the people living there is useful for propaganda purposes to rally Arab opposition to Israel. So long as Gaza is under the control of Hamas extremists - proxies of Iran - there can never be peace, can never be a two state solution which would bring peace. If a two state solution were adopted, Israel’s survival would be guaranteed. This is the last thing that Iran and Arab / Islamic extremists want. They still seek the destruction of Israel. The global Left are consequently also pawns and proxies of Iran; they seek to portray Arab people living in Gaza and the West Bank as somehow ‘indigenous’ and apply their same warped views as regards ‘colonisers’ as they do to places like New Zealand. There were Jews living in that area of the Levant for thousands of years, so they cannot be dismissed as blow ins from some other part of the planet.

Sad that you jump immediately to personal attacks and categorize people as "global Left" and similar BS. This narrow minded thinking is it what prevents solutions in conflict zones like the Near East. We first need to learn to open or minds and see both sides of a conflict before we can find a solution.

Anyway - we do agree that both Jewish people as well as Palestinian (or - if you like - Arab) people do have a historic right to live in this area. That's a good start, isn't it?

Both people have in the past generated groups committing unacceptable crimes and terrorism (just research at some stage the history of Jewish terrorism) - against each other and against other people. People who are suppressed do have a tendency to generate freedom fighters which the other side (and everybody at the wrong side of the bomb) sees as terrorists. This is true for all people, including Arab and Jewish people.

Jewish people have been in the past (as many other people) the victims of progroms and genocides, which gave them a right to compensation and might give them a right to more support from others, but it does not give them the right to harrass and drive out the legitimate owners of land which they just occupy and wish to possess. It does not give them the right either to indiscriminately kill innocent civilians in the thousands. What the Israelian Armed forces currently are doing in Gaza is skirting the limits to genocide. Just stop peoples access to food, medicine and water and bomb them for good measure - and if they are then dying, whose fault could that possibly be?

It is this behaviour I attributed to "Jewish Nazis". As you know - I tend to call a spade a spade and I call a troll a troll. If somebody who happens to be a Jew behaves like a Nazi, than I see no reason why I shouldn't call him a Jewish Nazi. Do you?

[Balance]

Black Peter revealing his dormant German Nazi genes, lurking always just under the surface.

Heil Hitler!

[blackcap]

BlackPeter revealing his dormant German Nazi genes.

Look he might be of German heritage, but that does not make him a Nazi. Though he does display quite authoritarian tendencies from time to time.

[Balance]

Phil Twyford was shouted down and had to be escorted from the rally because he condemned both sides for the atrocities committed against civilians.

Into his place at the podium stepped in Chloe, screeching her pro-Hamas & terrorism rhetoric. And what a rousing welcome the crowd gave her - she spoke their language of hate and murderous intent.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/11/labour-s-phil-twyford-shouted-down-at-palestine-rally-in-auckland.html

Twyford was eventually drowned out by the crowd yelling at him, before saying "OK, alright," and leaving the stage.

The crowd then cheered for Green MP Chlöe Swarbrick as Twyford left the gathering followed by a group of protesters.

The MC then said "sometimes people can't read the room" to applause.

[Blue Skies]

‘Jewish Nazis’. Just let that term sink in and then consider the person using the term, who subjects others to ‘negative reputation’ attacks, calls others ‘trolls’, and says of others ‘that says a lot about you’. Well when you have someone calling the people who were the victims of the Holocaust ‘Jewish Nazis’, then that says a lot about them & their complete lack of a moral compass.

There has never been a state called Palestine. The region was ruled for centuries by the Ottoman Empire, and then after its overthrow there was an archaic term ‘Palestine’ resurrected by the British and given to that area which was under their ‘Mandate’ (rule). The people described as ‘Palestinian’ are the same Arab people that populate the Middle East. Why do we not refer to then as Arabs in the same way that we refer to Jewish people as Jews?
The UN sought a ‘two state’ solution to solve intractable problems, there was to be a Jewish state & an Arab state, and Jerusalem was to be some sort of shared neutral zone. The Arabs fiercely opposed the partition plan - which then lead to war which the Zionists won. Ever since that time, the state of Israel has been fighting for its life against the Arabs.
These days Iran maintains its proxy forces in Gaza and Lebanon solely to be a perennial thorn in Israels side. Gaza and the West Bank are simply pawns in Iran’s game, the plight if the people living there is useful for propaganda purposes to rally Arab opposition to Israel. So long as Gaza is under the control of Hamas extremists - proxies of Iran - there can never be peace, can never be a two state solution which would bring peace. If a two state solution were adopted, Israel’s survival would be guaranteed. This is the last thing that Iran and Arab / Islamic extremists want. They still seek the destruction of Israel. The global Left are consequently also pawns and proxies of Iran; they seek to portray Arab people living in Gaza and the West Bank as somehow ‘indigenous’ and apply their same warped views as regards ‘colonisers’ as they do to places like New Zealand. There were Jews living in that area of the Levant for thousands of years, so they cannot be dismissed as blow ins from some other part of the planet.



Lots of misunderstanding there, for a start the region known as Palestine goes way back in ancient history & recognised by the Ancient Greeks.

Read the ancient Greek philosopher Herodotus (if you read Michael Ondaji's book "The English Patient" or saw the film, remember Ralph Fiennes character asks for Herodotus to be read to him)

However, consider many countries/Nations/States that exist today didn't "exist" in the sense you talk about prior to WW1.

e.g. The collapse of the Russian Empire created Finland & Poland. The Austro-Hungarian Empire dissolved into Austria & Hungry, Czechoslovakia & Yugoslavia which have dissolved again into new States.
Turkey came out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
Tell me you would deny any of these Countries are real or don't actually exist !

Secondly the State of Palestine has been recognised by 139 member countries of the UN.

[nztx]

How many times has Palestine declared War on it's neighbour (of course never officially announced
as such) under the Terrorist Hamas Leadership ? ;)

Yasser Arafat & PLO probably knew better than what Hamas have tried pulling off, and likely
consequences.

The Egyptians are probably fairly smart not wanting to go anywhere near repeat of 1967 with
larger powers overlooking the antics close by

As per usual Kiwiland's resident shallow Green Couch potatoes try to pluck what suits their own narrow
agendas out of things and spray forward trying to grasp any straw of relevance after they have been
by default unceremoniously delivered into the shade by Greater NZ, and hoping no-one else notices more
on their futile time-wasting attention-seeking tendencies :)