POLL : New poll - 2 weeks till the election CLOSED

[justakiwi]

OK, so we are two weeks out from the election. Please indicate which party you intend to give your PARTY vote to.

The last two polls returned pretty much the same results. It will be interesting to see if anything changes over the next two.

[Baa_Baa]

OK, so we are two weeks out from the election. Please indicate which party you intend to give your PARTY vote to.

The last two polls returned pretty much the same results. It will be interesting to see if anything changes over the next two.

Thanks JAK, this will be interesting. Week 4->3 did present movements in all the party's, that if a third poll continued the trend, would significantly change the outcome from just 2 weeks ago.







4 weeks
3 weeks
4->3 +/-


National

21.43%


25.64%


4.21%



Labour

4.76%


2.56%


2.20%



ACT

40.48%


35.90%


4.58%



Greens

2.30%


7.69%


5.39%



Maori

9.52%


2.56%


6.96%



NZF

0.00%


2.56%


2.56%



TOP

11.90%


15.38%


3.48%



Other

0.00%


0.00%


0.00%



Undecided

4.76%


5.13%


0.37%



Not voting

4.76%


2.56%


2.20%



Voters

42


39








14768

[justakiwi]

Hey, thanks for doing this! I hadn't realised the changes were that great - this makes it much easier to visualise them. Great job :)

[Azz]

I think the Act vote in these sharetrader polls will drop over time - because Act voters are probably more likely to stop doing them over and over.

[fungus pudding]

I think the Act vote in these sharetrader polls will drop over time - because Act voters are probably more likely to stop doing them over and over.

What on earth do you mean?

[Logen Ninefingers]

What on earth do you mean?

He means that ACT voters will probably get sick of the constant polls and stop engaging with them. They’ve been kind of fun I guess but with such a tiny sample size they in no way reflect how the population at large are thinking and the ‘trends’ such as they are are pretty much meaningless.

[Azz]

He means that ACT voters will probably get sick of the constant polls and stop engaging with them. They’ve been kind of fun I guess but with such a tiny sample size they in no way reflect how the population at large are thinking and the ‘trends’ such as they are are pretty much meaningless.

Bang-on correct. :-)

[Panda-NZ-]

He means that ACT voters will probably get sick of the constant polls and stop engaging with them. They’ve been kind of fun I guess but with such a tiny sample size they in no way reflect how the population at large are thinking and the ‘trends’ such as they are are pretty much meaningless.

Their lack of respect for authority coming through? ;)

[justakiwi]

You two are almost as predictable as your buddy Balance. Go play in your sandpit, and leave the adults to enjoy our "meaningless" bit of poll fun.




I think the Act vote in these sharetrader polls will drop over time - because Act voters are probably more likely to stop doing them over and over.


He means that ACT voters will probably get sick of the constant polls and stop engaging with them. They’ve been kind of fun I guess but with such a tiny sample size they in no way reflect how the population at large are thinking and the ‘trends’ such as they are are pretty much meaningless.


Bang-on correct. :-)

[Azz]

You two are almost as predictable as your buddy Balance. Go play in your sandpit, and leave the adults to enjoy our "meaningless" bit of poll fun.

By the 50th poll I reckon, TOP will win it!

[Panda-NZ-]

By the 50th poll I reckon, TOP will win it!

They are the official opposition party on these numbers.










4 weeks
3 weeks
4->3 +/-


National

21.43%


25.64%


4.21%



Labour

4.76%


2.56%


2.20%



ACT

40.48%


35.90%


4.58%



Greens

2.30%


7.69%


5.39%



Maori

9.52%


2.56%


6.96%



NZF

0.00%


2.56%


2.56%



TOP

11.90%


15.38%


3.48%



Other

0.00%


0.00%


0.00%



Undecided

4.76%


5.13%


0.37%



Not voting

4.76%


2.56%


2.20%



Voters

42


39

[Patrick11]

NZfirst will get well over 5% in election its a movement.

[Azz]

They are the official opposition party on these numbers.

Why isn't the marijuana party in there? Seems a bit unfair they're not available as an option.

[justakiwi]

......deleted.......


Why isn't the marijuana party in there? Seems a bit unfair they're not available as an option.

[fungus pudding]

He means that ACT voters will probably get sick of the constant polls and stop engaging with them. They’ve been kind of fun I guess but with such a tiny sample size they in no way reflect how the population at large are thinking and the ‘trends’ such as they are are pretty much meaningless.

But why would that be limited to one party?

[ValueNZ]

But why would that be limited to one party?
Just a guess but ACT voters might have a slighter higher IQ than your average voter and therefore possibly less willing to do repetitive tasks. I doubt with this tiny sample size it would make any meaningful difference though.

[justakiwi]

OK, I get it. The polls are a meaningless waste of time, so I will not be posting another one. The lack of gratitude or appreciation in this place is unbelievable.

I am done.

[fungus pudding]

OK, I get it. The polls are a meaningless waste of time, so I will not be posting another one. The lack of gratitude or appreciation in this place is unbelievable.

I am done.

I hope you rethink that. I for one find it interesting and appreciate your input, as I'm sure others do. And the next couple of weeks should prove even more interesting.

[Azz]

OK, I get it. The polls are a meaningless waste of time, so I will not be posting another one. The lack of gratitude or appreciation in this place is unbelievable.

I am done.

Don't be like that. I wasn't having a go at you, I was just saying what I thought to be true.

It's just a bit of fun, the polls. No harm in you carrying out the plan to do multi-polls.

[Azz]

I hope you rethink that. I for one find it interesting and appreciate your input, as I'm sure others do. And the next couple of weeks should prove even more interesting.

I hope so too.

[Baa_Baa]

OK, I get it. The polls are a meaningless waste of time, so I will not be posting another one. The lack of gratitude or appreciation in this place is unbelievable.

I am done.

Not sure why you take it so personally, if all it takes is someone to diminish the value of your poll and you quit, someone else will put up a poll to replace it. You've started something interesting here, far more people are taking part than criticising it, maybe just keep it going and disconnect from the negative comments. It's not personal.

[justakiwi]

Actually, it is personal Baa_Baa. But OK. I will put the final poll up next Saturday, for those who want it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

By the 50th poll I reckon, TOP will win it!

lol, good one. Some of the hand-wringers out there have no sense of humour. They will still be fretting and dithering away as they walk into the polling booth. Look for the 'adult' when you go to vote, they will be the one engaged in a desperate no-win argument...with themself.

[iceman]

I think the Act vote in these sharetrader polls will drop over time - because Act voters are probably more likely to stop doing them over and over.

Why ? I think it's most interesting if same people voted honestly each week to get a glimpse of how Sharetraders are thinking as we progress through the election campaign. Not a lot of work required to take part and only 4-5 weeks.

JAK, don't take it so personally. We are on here to hear different views and always some we dislike and don;t agree with. Continue the good work.

[Aaron]

I appreciate it is probably a lot of bullsh*t but has anyone done the Vote Compass thing with one news?

Turns out I am a centre voter, almost right in the cross hairs, a little to the left economically and a little more socially conservative. (I thought I was a bleeding heart liberal but that might be due to comparing myself with the average share trader)

It does not feel like the centrist parties of National and Labour are trying for my vote though as they try to buy votes with dumb policy. GST off fruit and veg seems dumber and less imaginative than unfunded tax cuts.

Maybe the centre is a bunch of selfish aholes but I don't have the self awareness to see this in myself. I am closest to the TOP party but the social conservative in me puts me right between National and Labour.

Did everyone end up dead centre or are the algorithms and calculations actually right and I am a boring centrist not wanting change, despite constantly saying I would like to see change. Lucky TOP is there to give me an option in the centre as I cannot vote National or Labour.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I appreciate it is probably a lot of bullsh*t but has anyone done the Vote Compass thing with one news?

Turns out I am a centre voter, almost right in the cross hairs, a little to the left economically and a little more socially conservative. (I thought I was a bleeding heart liberal but that might be due to comparing myself with the average share trader)

It does not feel like the centrist parties of National and Labour are trying for my vote though as they try to buy votes with dumb policy. GST off fruit and veg seems dumber and less imaginative than unfunded tax cuts.

Maybe the centre is a bunch of selfish aholes but I don't have the self awareness to see this in myself. I am closest to the TOP party but the social conservative in me puts me right between National and Labour.

Did everyone end up dead centre or are the algorithms and calculations actually right and I am a boring centrist not wanting change, despite constantly saying I would like to see change. Lucky TOP is there to give me an option in the centre as I cannot vote National or Labour.

Turns out I am a centre voter

Lucky TOP is there to give me an option in the centre

-----

'Vote Compass results are not intended and should not be interpreted as voting advice, nor as a prediction as to which party or candidate a given user intends to vote for. It is meant to serve as an entry point into an examination of (where) parties differ across a suite of issues relevant to a given election campaign.'


https://www.voxpoplabs.com/votecompass/methodology.pdf

[Logen Ninefingers]

I think they are working on a 'Gender Compass' for anyone out there trying to figure that stuff out as well.

[iceman]

Vote Compass results place me pretty close to where I would have thought I am both economically and socially. My wife did it as well and got a similar result, i.e. pretty close to where she (and I) would have thought she was.

[Aaron]

Vote Compass results place me pretty close to where I would have thought I am both economically and socially. My wife did it as well and got a similar result, i.e. pretty close to where she (and I) would have thought she was.

Iceman I would have you as less radical probably placing right on National maybe a bit further lower so possibly NZF. But then again a tough fisherman could be blue collar left leaning but fisheries traditionally do not have strong unions so I would say just to the right of midway and halfway between midway and bottom on the social side.

I would be interested to know if Logen is to the right and below ACT on the grid. Based on his posts he comes across as reasonably extreme. It could be good confirmation on the accuracy of the poll.

[ithaka]

OK, I get it. The polls are a meaningless waste of time, so I will not be posting another one. The lack of gratitude or appreciation in this place is unbelievable.

I am done.
The fact that 25 votes (so far) have been cast on the first day suggests that your poll is worthwhile and appreciated.
Keep up the good work.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Iceman I would have you as less radical probably placing right on National maybe a bit further lower so possibly NZF. But then again a tough fisherman could be blue collar left leaning but fisheries traditionally do not have strong unions so I would say just to the right of midway and halfway between midway and bottom on the social side.

I would be interested to know if Logen is to the right and below ACT on the grid. Based on his posts he comes across as reasonably extreme. It could be good confirmation on the accuracy of the poll.

Well I did the Vote Compass to go through the motions, and there were silly questions like "do you think tax cuts are the best way to deal with a cost of living crisis?"

If you answer 'NO' then the Vote Compass will drag you to the Left.
But you may be answering 'NO' because you would absolutely love a tax cut, but think that a cost of living crisis is best addressed by a suite of measures delivered not just by the government, but by the Reserve Bank as well. Whoever designed the 'Vote Compass' questions either has an ulterior motive behind the framing of them, or lacks the ability to think critically.

The questions are stupid in other words, extremely simple & there are hardly any of them. Certainly not enough to define a persons political identity.

I'm just absolutely gob-smacked that there are people out there who are -
1/ Prepared to put all their faith in something called 'Vote Compass' without knowing anything about it, without knowing who is behind it, who designed it, what their actual motivations are, whether the questions served up are capable of confirming a persons beliefs.....it is just so vague yet people will trust in it without a second thought.
2/ I don't need 'Vote Compass' to tell me what I believe in and what I stand for. I have known my political standpoint and intrinsic beliefs for decades. These beliefs are one of the pillars of our identity. The fact that people go to 'Vote Compass' to find out about themselves.....mind boggling. It is a joke, a gimmick.

[Panda-NZ-]

If you answer 'NO' then the Vote Compass will drag you to the Left.
But you may be answering 'NO' because you would absolutely love a tax cut, but think that a cost of living crisis is best addressed by a suite of measures delivered not just by the government, but by the Reserve Bank as well. Whoever designed the 'Vote Compass' questions either has an ulterior motive behind the framing of them, or lacks the ability to think critically.


They're catering to the average person in the street, not us intellectual heavyweights.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Take this 'Vote Compass' question:

'How many immigrants should New Zealand admit?'

If a person answers 'many fewer', is that because they are a far right racist who loathes dark skinned people, or because the are a left wing leaning person who is desperately worried about our creaking infrastructure and wants a temporary pause while the government spends $100 billion fixing it up?

So can anyone tell me how 'Vote Compass' can make the correct determination from such a generic question and such a generic answer?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Take this 'Vote Compass' question:

'Environmental regulations should be stricter, even if it means consumers pay higher prices.'

If I answer 'strongly disagree', is that because I am an right wing ultra-capitalist who doesn't give a toss about the environment, or because I am a far-left Marxist who is strongly opposed to 'long suffering' consumers paying higher prices when I think industry should bear all the costs?

Again, how can 'Vote Compass' possibly make the determination from such a generic question and such a generic answer?

[Azz]

They're catering to the average person in the street, not us intellectual heavyweights.

lol.............. Panda-NZ, not only have you been mainly polite and reasonable lately, you make the occasional joke too. I'm really very concerned about you; did you ever get to the hospital after that head-knock you experienced?

[Logen Ninefingers]

"Martha, duh...I thought I was right wing but I done gone and done this here 'Vote Compass', and it turns out I'm actually pretty far left. Jingo's, I was gonna vote National but I guess that now I'll pretty much have to vote Labour."

"That's amazing George dear, I better do it too to find out what I believe in and who I am. I've always assumed I'm an environmentalist but perhaps I'm a predatory capitalist..."

[Azz]

Re Vote Compass, I've said it before and I'll say it again: without it being open source there is no way to tell if it has any bias, either mistaken or deliberate.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Re Vote Compass, I've said it before and I'll say it again: without it being open source there is no way to tell if it has any bias, either mistaken or deliberate.

Look, the questions are so stupid and the answers are so open to interpretation that it renders the whole thing pointless. The fact that people take it seriously and OneNews market it as a way to help you determine who you should vote for just confirms that we are on the cusp of being an Idiocracy, if we are not there already. People these days have zero ability to think critically, and I blame Television and mobile phones, the media, social media, and brain damage from environmental pollution, drug and alcohol use, poor diet, and head knocks from playing sport.

[Aaron]

Take this 'Vote Compass' question:

'Environmental regulations should be stricter, even if it means consumers pay higher prices.'

If I answer 'strongly disagree', is that because I am an right wing ultra-capitalist who doesn't give a toss about the environment, or because I am a far-left Marxist who is strongly opposed to 'long suffering' consumers paying higher prices when I think industry should bear all the costs?

Again, how can 'Vote Compass' possibly make the determination from such a generic question and such a generic answer?

Interesting that you don't share your result. Was I right that you are an extremist or are you embarrassed because you are more aligned with Labour?

I wouldn't take the results too seriously just interested out of curiosity. I was more wondering if we all clustered around the centre or if it is only me.

I thought we might find Balance and Panda NZ and BlackPeter and AZZ not that far from each other at the end of the day. I wouldn't over analyse it though.

For example I think the strongest green voter bases are in the wealthiest electorates so you can be concerned about the environment and be rich. Probably the wealthy liberals telling us to stop oil and farming as they won't be the ones suffering from rising prices at the end of the day.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Interesting that you don't share your result. Was I right that you are an extremist or are you embarrassed because you are more aligned with Labour?

I wouldn't take the results too seriously just interested out of curiosity. I was more wondering if we all clustered around the centre or if it is only me.

I thought we might find Balance and Panda NZ and BlackPeter and AZZ not that far from each other at the end of the day. I wouldn't over analyse it though.

For example I think the strongest green voter bases are in the wealthiest electorates so you can be concerned about the environment and be rich. Probably the wealthy liberals telling us to stop oil and farming as they won't be the ones suffering from rising prices at the end of the day.

My result is irrelevant, and I explained why. There is no way I could possibly be 'embarrassed' by the 'result', as the result is rendered meaningless by the poorly designed questions.

Let me be clear: I do not place any store in 'Vote Compass', it is a cheap parlour trick, a stupid gimmick.

[iceman]

My result is irrelevant, and I explained why. There is no way I could possibly be 'embarrassed' by the 'result', as the result is rendered meaningless by the poorly designed questions.

Let me be clear: I do not place any store in 'Vote Compass', it is a cheap parlour trick, a stupid gimmick.

Of course its all irrelevant and the questions are simple and loaded. But the same thing could be said about just about every discussion on this site, at the end of the day they are just personal opinions and in reality quite irrelevant !!
I just looked at it as a bit of fun, like a quiz or a puzzle

[Getty]

I agree that Vote Compass could couch its questions better and have a wider scope.

I don't know if they will do it this year, but the Dominion, or now Post newspaper used to do an excellent 2 page layout of the policies of each party, which l found was the most useful tool to help decide who to vote for.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Of course its all irrelevant and the questions are simple and loaded. But the same thing could be said about just about every discussion on this site, at the end of the day they are just personal opinions and in reality quite irrelevant !!
I just looked at it as a bit of fun, like a quiz or a puzzle

Yeah, but often people don't. I've seen responses in the past where people are amazed to 'find out' they are actually a different political animal than they thought they were, then I point out the flaws....then it's suddenly 'yeah, I just thought it was a bit of fun'. Take the bloke who thinks I'd be 'embarrassed' to 'find out' I'm actually 'more aligned with Labour'. Trust me, there are people who are taking it seriously, or at least....did initially take it seriously.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Another 'Vote Compass' question:

'Urban housing developments in New Zealand should stay within current city limits rather than expand into surrounding farmland.'

If I 'strongly agree' is that because I am a right wing property developer who specialises in high rise urban apartment buildings and has bought up inner city land, or because I am a left wing environmentalist who doesn't want green areas being overrun by new houses and roading infrastructure? Or am I someone else with some other reason?

[Azz]

I don't know if they will do it this year, but the Dominion, or now Post newspaper used to do an excellent 2 page layout of the policies of each party, which l found was the most useful tool to help decide who to vote for.

That's the best way to present the info, all of it there in one place, publically.

[Aaron]

My result is irrelevant, and I explained why. There is no way I could possibly be 'embarrassed' by the 'result', as the result is rendered meaningless by the poorly designed questions.

Let me be clear: I do not place any store in 'Vote Compass', it is a cheap parlour trick, a stupid gimmick.

Agreed.

According to compass I am the most level headed even handed person going into this election. That is not what I hear from people who know me.

Still interested to know your result, just out of interest. How about this, without giving too much away are you further right and lower down than ACT?

I suspect Logen and Iceman are freaked out by how accurately me and the Compass quiz labled them and do not like it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

What's the story with this strange 'Vote Compass' question?

'Fruits and vegetables should be exempt from GST.'

Why just fruit and vegetables? Why not all food? Or everything? What will my answer tell me or 'Vote Compass' about my own personal political viewpoint? Maybe I put 'strongly disagree' 'because I hate poor people because I'm an evil neoliberal' (as per the cliche)? Or maybe I put 'strongly disagree' because I think GST should be scrapped altogether and I don't think taking it off some things goes far enough? Or maybe I put 'strongly disagree' because I think the exemption will be difficult to administer and won't achieve anything because the sellers will simply put up their prices to 'fill up the slack' that appears when the GST goes? Or maybe I put 'strongly disagree' because I think NZ needs all the tax revenue it can get right now because I want better public services?
How does 'Vote Compass' know what is going on in the mind of any given respondent?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Agreed.

According to compass I am the most level headed even handed person going into this election. That is not what I hear from people who know me.

Still interested to know your result, just out of interest. How about this, without giving too much away are you further right and lower down than ACT?

I suspect Logen and Iceman are freaked out by how accurately me and the Compass quiz labled them and do not like it.

Again, why on earth would I be 'freaked out' or 'embarrassed'?

[dln]

I think the best thing about it is that it may get some people to actually think about these things, and who is touting what, rather than just soaking up the media narrative.

[Aaron]

Again, why on earth would I be 'freaked out' or 'embarrassed'?

Just wondering why you don't want to share your results with us?

It is just a joke poll and as you say, you can't read too much into it. Just interesting to compare results with impressions I have of people based on their posts in these election threads.

With Balance's lack of opposition to capital gains tax he might land closer to Labour than any of us might believe.

An important part of the election process is the right to privacy so don't let me upset you.

[Azz]

With Balance's lack of opposition to capital gains tax he might land closer to Labour than any of us might believe.

What the hell is this........? That can't be true?!

[Aaron]

I would expect Azz to fall somewhere close to NZ First as a first class sh*t stirrer he and Winston must be closely aligned.

Thinking about the grid further, how come NZF is right on the x axis wouldn't that mean they are borderline crazy.

Don't tell me you landed in the bottom right hand corner Logen?

[Azz]

I would expect Azz to fall somewhere close to NZ First as a first class sh*t stirrer he and Winston must be closely aligned.

I love Winston. It took a few years, but I've forgiven him for going with Labour in 2017.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Just wondering why you don't want to share your results with us?

It is just a joke poll and as you say, you can't read too much into it. Just interesting to compare results with impressions I have of people based on their posts in these election threads.

With Balance's lack of opposition to capital gains tax he might land closer to Labour than any of us might believe.

An important part of the election process is the right to privacy so don't let me upset you.

With Balance's lack of opposition to capital gains tax he might land closer to Labour than any of us might believe.

Really? The Labour PM is opposed to the introduction of a Capital Gains Tax.

Chris Hipkins has ruled out introducing a wealth tax or capital gains tax if Labour is re-elected in October. "I'm confirming today that under a government I lead there will be no wealth or capital gains tax after the election. End of story," Hipkins said in a statement.

[Aaron]

I love Winston. It took a few years, but I've forgiven him for going with Labour in 2017.

See Azz is closely aligned to Winston as expected. I also suspect Iceman to be closer to NZF than National but more to do with a conservative nature than being a sh*t stirrer. Where did you land on the grid Logen?

Chris Hipkins as gutless as Key and Adern but I would suspect favouring a capital gains tax would put you further left on the grid.

[Azz]

See Azz is closely aligned to Winston as expected.

I didn't say I was aligned with him; I said I loved him.

[Aaron]

I didn't say I was aligned with him; I said I loved him.

Closely Aligned, Love.... Potatoe, potato.

[dln]

I did it and landed smack in the middle too.
I share Logen's misgivings about the questions and structure, but again, think it is useful for engaging people's thought processes about some of the issues to be considered when voting

[dln]

FWIW we also did it with my racist MIL who claimed she was voting for Winston and to be fair, it gave her a 90% affinity with NZF, so it's not totally inaccurate ;)

[Azz]

Closely Aligned, Love.... Potatoe, potato.

Tomato, tomatoe!

[Azz]

FWIW we also did it with my racist MIL who claimed she was voting for Winston and to be fair, it gave her a 90% affinity with NZF, so it's not totally inaccurate ;)

Hopefully she's just a try-hard racist, not a real one.

[Aaron]

I did it and landed smack in the middle too.
I share Logen's misgivings about the questions and structure, but again, think it is useful for engaging people's thought processes about some of the issues to be considered when voting

See Logen, me and dln are level headed, perfectly reasonable people and I suspect most people will fall somewhere around the centre, but from your hyperbolic postings I just wondered if you fell somewhere near the extremes, like NZF, Azz and dln's mother in law.

Possibly the anonymity of the web allows you to appear more extreme than you might be in real life.

Be interested to hear where others landed.

justakiwi would be hard to pick, someone for the farmers but also for the transgenders. I suspect high and right of halfway on the grid.

Many thanks for the poll and a fun thread justakiwi. All this politics is getting way too serious.

Gotta go and buy some beer to celebrate this great nation and an All Black win.

[Logen Ninefingers]

See Logen, me and dln are level headed, perfectly reasonable people and I suspect most people will fall somewhere around the centre, but from your hyperbolic postings I just wondered if you fell somewhere near the extremes, like NZF, Azz and dln's mother in law.

Possibly the anonymity of the web allows you to appear more extreme than you might be in real life.

See Logen, me and dln are level headed, perfectly reasonable people

I just wondered if you fell somewhere near the extremes, like NZF, Azz and dln's mother in law.

Who is the 'you' you are addressing your remarks to?

[Azz]

me and dln are level headed, perfectly reasonable people

Um, hmmm, ah, um, mayyyybe....

[Aaron]

[I]Who is the 'you' you are addressing your remarks to?

You of course, we haven't got your answer yet.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Labour and the Greens combined are currently polling at 3.45% in the latest 'Sharetrader Poll'. They won't be happy if this is how they go on election day.

[fungus pudding]

Labour and the Greens combined are currently polling at 3.45% in the latest 'Sharetrader Poll'. They won't be happy if this is how they go on election day.

We can't all be happy

[fungus pudding]

Labour and the Greens combined are currently polling at 3.45% in the latest 'Sharetrader Poll'. They won't be happy if this is how they go on election day.

We can't all be happy

[Daytr]

All the latest poll on NZST displays is its not reprentative of the wider population and its is dominated by either the center right or very right wing which explains a lot in regards the discourse on this site.

[Azz]

All the latest poll on NZST displays is its not reprentative of the wider population and its is dominated by either the center right or very right wing which explains a lot in regards the discourse on this site.

The discourse on this site would be a heck of a lot better without people here misrepresenting themselves - such as stating they're an "international day trader" when they're not.

[Logen Ninefingers]

All the latest poll on NZST displays is its not reprentative of the wider population and its is dominated by either the center right or very right wing which explains a lot in regards the discourse on this site.

Yes, the discourse is usually pretty on point, robust, and honest…..and then you have a handful of whingers & over-sensitive hand wringers, and the also occasional pedantic train spotter who goes around totalling up other peoples daily post numbers.

[justakiwi]

You really do have a giant chip on your shoulder don't you? Maybe take a break from the internet and go for walk or something. Like I did the other day, when I temporarily "lost the plot" because I let people I don't even know, get to me.


Yes, the discourse is usually pretty on point, robust, and honest…..and then you have a handful of whingers & over-sensitive hand wringers, and the also occasional pedantic train spotter who goes around totalling up other peoples daily post numbers.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You really do have a giant chip on your shoulder don't you? Maybe take a break from the internet and go for walk or something. Like I did the other day, when I temporarily "lost the plot" because I let people I don't even know, get to me.

Yeah, I'm the one with the chip on my shoulder....not the bloke who goes round adding up other peoples posts and giving a running tally. You should have noted that my post was in response to that guys latest whinge.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Running poll tally:

Parties of the right: 20 votes. (National and ACT)

Parties of the left: 10 votes. (Labour / NZF / Greens / TOP / TE Pati Maori)

Not voting: 1.

[Daytr]

Wow! All I said is the discourse is representative of the polling and membership, which is quite a reasonable thing to say & make perfect sense.

And they are saying I have chip on my shoulder. If you think what I said was derogatory then you are referring to your own views & according discourse.

Quite incredible reaction. But funny also.
Those who throw around insults like salt are soooo sensitive.

[moka]

Yes, the discourse is usually pretty on point, robust, and honest…..and then you have a handful of whingers & over-sensitive hand wringers, and the also occasional pedantic train spotter who goes around totalling up other peoples daily post numbers.Yes, there is a handful of whingers here and they are the ones who are constantly posting negative comments about Labour, page after page. That is the real whinging. Their discourse quickly descends into personal attacks and name calling if someone has an alternative view to their propaganda.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Yes, there is a handful of whingers here and they are the ones who are constantly posting negative comments about Labour, page after page. That is the real whinging. Their discourse quickly descends into personal attacks and name calling if someone has an alternative view to their propaganda.

21 votes for the parties in the Right, plus another 3 if you add in NZF.

No wonder the resident Marxists are spitting their chips!

[justakiwi]

Right now, you are spitting more chips than pretty much anyone.

I honestly don’t understand why you are SO freaking angry all the time. Nothing any of us say here will make one iota of difference to the outcome of the election. There is zero point trying to convince anyone who they should (or shouldn’t) vote for. By all means, discuss YOUR reasons for voting for a particular party, but you have to respect that everyone has different views, beliefs, feelings, and they may not be the same as yours. This constant anger and nastiness needs to stop - from all sides. Your judgement of others is not OK.




No wonder the resident Marxists are spitting their chips!

[Logen Ninefingers]

Right now, you are spitting more chips than pretty much anyone.

I honestly don’t understand why you are SO freaking angry all the time. Nothing any of us say here will make one iota of difference to the outcome of the election. There is zero point trying to convince anyone who they should (or shouldn’t) vote for. By all means, discuss YOUR reasons for voting for a particular party, but you have to respect that everyone has different views, beliefs, feelings, and they may not be the same as yours. This constant anger and nastiness needs to stop - from all sides. Your judgement of others is not OK.

Definitely not trying to convince anyone here to vote for National or ACT. Most of then are already. 😂

[moka]

There is no one answer as to why some men are so angry all the time, but social media has proven perversely liberating for angry men, as this article says.

https://www.fatherly.com/life/anger-management-expert-why-men
(https://www.fatherly.com/life/anger-management-expert-why-men)
“They don’t have to deal with the consequences of angry diatribes and don’t have to fear retribution,” Dr Thomas J. Harbin writes. “They can say whatever they want to whoever they want and get away with it. They can rant and rave, call people names, make false statements about people, start or contribute to rumors, and sometimes ruin lives — and forget all about it when they walk away from the screen.”

A lot of angry men have a core sense of inferiority. They feel like they don’t measure up.
“I think over the last 10 or 15 years or so a lot of aspects of our culture have gotten increasingly aggressive,” says Dr. Harbin

“I think the echo chamber has done a lot to exacerbate and perpetuate male anger. Guys can go online and find thousands of other guys that are just as angry as they are and they bounce it back and forth, getting angrier. I think that there has been a great reduction in civility and reasonableness over the last couple of generations, and I think that you’d be wrong to blame social media for that entirely but I certainly think that social media contributes to it.”
A lot of people value belligerence in and of its own self. Belligerence is now a virtue.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The answer to why some men are angry all the time is that they are from the Left, they are social justice warriors, they want everything to be made ‘fair’, they rail against others as being ‘selfish’ and ‘greedy’. It just goes with the territory.

[Logen Ninefingers]

My hope for TOP is that they get about 3.85% of the vote; high enough that they siphon a significant number of votes away from the Left but are still signficantly short of the threshold.

I think a political opportunist like Manji may depart for his next destination before 2026, maybe a return to CHC council, or even off to try his luck in Australia.

[Aaron]

“They don’t have to deal with the consequences of angry diatribes and don’t have to fear retribution,” Dr Thomas J. Harbin writes. “They can say whatever they want to whoever they want and get away with it. They can rant and rave, call people names, make false statements about people, start or contribute to rumors, and sometimes ruin lives — and forget all about it when they walk away from the screen.”

A lot of angry men have a core sense of inferiority. They feel like they don’t measure up.

That describes me pretty much. That said I don't like agreeing with what some stupid f*cking, opinionated American has spouted off.


Hey Logen where do you fall on the Compass grid??? I imagine Moka would be somewhere near the centre as I agree with a lot of his posts. If you are at an extreme it could be confirmation that the compass guide is reasonably accurate.

My vote for TOP will change nothing but nothing much will change under either National or Labour.

[Logen Ninefingers]

“They don’t have to deal with the consequences of angry diatribes and don’t have to fear retribution,” Dr Thomas J. Harbin writes. “They can say whatever they want to whoever they want and get away with it. They can rant and rave, call people names, make false statements about people, start or contribute to rumors, and sometimes ruin lives — and forget all about it when they walk away from the screen.”

A lot of angry men have a core sense of inferiority. They feel like they don’t measure up.

That describes me pretty much. That said I don't like agreeing with what some stupid f*cking, opinionated American has spouted off.


Hey Logen where do you fall on the Compass grid??? I imagine Moka would be some near the centre as I agree with a lot of his posts. If you are at an extreme it could be confirmation that the compass guide is reasonably accurate.

My vote for TOP will change nothing but nothing much will change under either National or Labour.

Who did you vote for at the last election Aaron, if you don't mind me asking? Was it one of the parties from the Left bloc?

I didn't complete the 'Vote Compass' thing, the questions were laughable. All of this was explained in my earlier posts where I provided examples of questions and the multiple reasons why someone could have answered the way they did. Sorry, 'Vote Compass' has no utility & should be disregarded as any sort of a tool or indicator as to what a person believes in.

[blackcap]

Who did you vote for at the last election Aaron, if you don't mind me asking? Was it one of the parties from the Left bloc?

I didn't complete the 'Vote Compass' thing, the questions were laughable. All of this was explained in my earlier posts where I provided examples of questions and the multiple reasons why someone could have answered the way they did. Sorry, 'Vote Compass' has no utility & should be disregarded as any sort of a tool or indicator as to what a person believes in.

Not a truer word said. Vote compass is a joke. The framing is so obvious it is laughable.

[justakiwi]

Given that it is your anger we were originally talking about, this explanation is clearly irrelevant.


The answer to why some men are angry all the time is that they are from the Left, they are social justice warriors, they want everything to be made ‘fair’, they rail against others as being ‘selfish’ and ‘greedy’. It just goes with the territory.


I think that's what you should do. You'd no doubt be much happier there.



I think a political opportunist like Manji may depart for his next destination before 2026, maybe a return to CHC council, or even off to try his luck in Australia.

[justakiwi]

....deleted.....

[blackcap]

The answer to why some men are angry all the time is that they are from the Left, they are social justice warriors, they want everything to be made ‘fair’, they rail against others as being ‘selfish’ and ‘greedy’. It just goes with the territory.

They are what Gad Saad calls "sneaky ****ers". (Those so called men who hang around social warrior women)

[Aaron]

Who did you vote for at the last election Aaron, if you don't mind me asking? Was it one of the parties from the Left bloc?

I voted for the most centrist party there is... TOP according to Compass. Neither left nor right but concerned about the welfare of everyone, old, young, rich, poor and a party that is concerned about all NZers. (sounds socialist or communist when you say it like that) Not trying to pander to selfish aholes with bullsh*t policies.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I voted for the most centrist party there is... TOP according to Compass. Neither left nor right but concerned about the welfare of everyone, old, young, rich, poor and a party that is concerned about all NZers. (sounds socialist or communist when you say it like that) Not trying to pander to selfish aholes with bullsh*t policies.

A committed TOP voter then.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Given that it is your anger we were originally talking about, this explanation is clearly irrelevant.




I think that's what you should do. You'd no doubt be much happier there.

In all honesty JAK, the most bitter and angry person seems to be you.

[justakiwi]

Actually, today, that assessment is fair. You are bringing out a side of me I don't much like. Up until now, I think I have managed to participate in these discussions in a respectful and controlled way, without attacking anyone for their beliefs. You, on the other hand, have done the exact opposite, and have openly admitted to shaming me (and no doubt others) for my voting decision in the last election. I have not once done that to you.

So right now, yes, my anger is directed at you. Not entirely unjustifiably.


In all honesty JAK, the most bitter and angry person seems to be you.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Actually, today, that assessment is fair. You are bringing out a side of me I don't much like. Up until now, I think I have managed to participate in these discussions in a respectful and controlled way, without attacking anyone for their beliefs. You, on the other hand, have done the exact opposite, and have openly admitted shaming me (and no doubt others) for my voting decision in the last election. I have not once done that to you.

So right now, yes, my anger is directed at you. Not entirely unjustifiably.

Give it a rest JAK. I said people should be ashamed of themselves for voting this horrible & divisive Labour government into power. If you want to carry on forever and a day about that, that is your choice.

[moka]

Give it a rest JAK. I said people should be ashamed of themselves for voting this horrible & divisive Labour government into power. If you want to carry on forever and a day about that, that is your choice."Give it a rest, and if you want to carry on forever and a day that is your choice to JAK" says the most frequent poster on these election threads. Talk about projection. He is talking about his own behaviour not JAK’s whose posts don’t dominate these threads. In projection, thoughts, motivations, desires, and feelings that cannot be accepted as one's own are dealt with by being placed in the outside world and attributed to someone else.

People who can accept their failures and weaknesses and are comfortable reflecting on the good, bad, and ugly within tend not to project. I see JAK able to do that, as she demonstrates in the post just above this.

[Logen Ninefingers]

"Give it a rest, and if you want to carry on forever and a day that is your choice to JAK" says the most frequent poster on these election threads. Talk about projection. He is talking about his own behaviour not JAK’s whose posts don’t dominate these threads. In projection, thoughts, motivations, desires, and feelings that cannot be accepted as one's own are dealt with by being placed in the outside world and attributed to someone else.

People who can accept their failures and weaknesses and are comfortable reflecting on the good, bad, and ugly within tend not to project. I see JAK able to do that, as she demonstrates in the post just above this.

Another comprehension fail by moka. I was talking about JAK giving her intense emnity towards me a rest, not her taking a rest from posting.
Likewise, I was talking about JAK hopefully not continuing her personal attacks 'forever and a day'; it was nothing to do with posting in general.

The rage coming from the Left is undertandable. Labour is heading for defeat, TOP probably won't make the threshold....what else is there to do but lash out?

[moka]

Give it a rest JAK. I said people should be ashamed of themselves for voting this horrible & divisive Labour government into power. If you want to carry on forever and a day about that, that is your choice.Shame is a spell others put on us to control us, to keep us playing a part in a dysfunctional system. It is a spell many of us have learned to put on ourselves. Learning to reject shame can change the quality of our life. It’s okay to be who we are. We are good enough. Our feelings are okay. Our past is okay. It’s okay to have problems, make mistakes and struggle to find our path. It is okay to be human and cherish our humanness.

Today I will watch for signs that I have fallen into shame’s trap. If I get hooked into shame, I will get myself out by accepting myself and affirming that it’s okay to be who I am.

I am proud to have to have voted for Labour in the last election, and while they made mistakes I agree with those who said that NZ’s response to covid was one of the most successful in the world.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2022/apr/05/new-zealands-covid-strategy-was-one-of-the-worlds-most-successful-what-can-it-learn-from-it

[Logen Ninefingers]

Shame is a spell others put on us to control us, to keep us playing a part in a dysfunctional system. It is a spell many of us have learned to put on ourselves. Learning to reject shame can change the quality of our life. It’s okay to be who we are. We are good enough. Our feelings are okay. Our past is okay. It’s okay to have problems, make mistakes and struggle to find our path. It is okay to be human and cherish our humanness.

Today I will watch for signs that I have fallen into shame’s trap. If I get hooked into shame, I will get myself out by accepting myself and affirming that it’s okay to be who I am.

I am proud to have to have voted for Labour in the last election, and while they made mistakes I agree with those who said that NZ’s response to covid was one of the most successful in the world.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2022/apr/05/new-zealands-covid-strategy-was-one-of-the-worlds-most-successful-what-can-it-learn-from-it

Sorry, I don't believe in magical spells or anything like that.

[moka]

Another comprehension fail by moka. I was talking about JAK giving her intense emnity towards me a rest, not her taking a rest from posting.
Likewise, I was talking about JAK hopefully not continuing her personal attacks 'forever and a day'; it was nothing to do with posting in general.

The rage coming from the Left is undertandable. Labour is heading for defeat, TOP probably won't make the threshold....what else is there to do but lash out?You are trying to discredit me when you say another comprehension fail by moka.

A mind game going on here. I didn’t notice JAK’s "intense emnity" and personal attacks in previous posts when I read them earlier. I did notice she didn’t agree with you. I’m not going to go down the rabbit hole of spending time to see if they were actually personal attacks.

Mind games are actions performed for reasons of psychological one-upmanship, often employing passive-aggressive behavior to specifically demoralize or dis-empower the other person, making the aggressor look superior. Mind games can be used to undermine someone’s belief in the validity of their own perceptions. Mind games in the struggle for prestige appear in everyday life in the fields of office politics, sport, and relationships.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You are trying to discredit me when you say another comprehension fail by moka.

A mind game going on here. I didn’t notice JAK’s "intense emnity" and personal attacks in previous posts when I read them earlier. I did notice she didn’t agree with you. I’m not going to go down the rabbit hole of spending time to see if they were actually personal attacks.

Mind games are actions performed for reasons of psychological one-upmanship, often employing passive-aggressive behavior to specifically demoralize or dis-empower the other person, making the aggressor look superior. Mind games can be used to undermine someone’s belief in the validity of their own perceptions. Mind games in the struggle for prestige appear in everyday life in the fields of office politics, sport, and relationships.

Thanks for the diatribe on 'mind games'. Very enlightening.

[blackcap]

Shame is a spell others put on us to control us, to keep us playing a part in a dysfunctional system. It is a spell many of us have learned to put on ourselves. Learning to reject shame can change the quality of our life. It’s okay to be who we are. We are good enough. Our feelings are okay. Our past is okay. It’s okay to have problems, make mistakes and struggle to find our path. It is okay to be human and cherish our humanness.

Today I will watch for signs that I have fallen into shame’s trap. If I get hooked into shame, I will get myself out by accepting myself and affirming that it’s okay to be who I am.

I am proud to have to have voted for Labour in the last election, and while they made mistakes I agree with those who said that NZ’s response to covid was one of the most successful in the world.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2022/apr/05/new-zealands-covid-strategy-was-one-of-the-worlds-most-successful-what-can-it-learn-from-it

Shame is a real thing and it is not a spell. It is important. The absence of shame leads to destruction. Shame and guilt are functional and important for mental health. Shame also regulates and makes us meet expectations and live up to our values.
Shame (closely related to guilt and regret) is an essential part of our survival and functioning and, in fact, is a gift from Mother Nature.
Shame’s function is pretty important. Basically, it helps to keep us in check.
If you want to reject shame, you do so at your own detriment.

[justakiwi]

There is some truth in what you say but shame is for us to impose on ourselves. It is not for someone in a forum to impose on others, for personal decisions such as who they vote for, or whether they get vaccinated. I regularly beat myself up about things I mismanaged, errors of judgement or whatever else. But I will not beat myself up for making a voting decision. I base my decisions on the information I have at the time.

The only people here, shaming others for their votes, are the right wing brigade/National/ACT supporters. I have not once seen anyone from the Left, shaming any of them, for which party they voted for at the last election.



Shame is a real thing and it is not a spell. It is important. The absence of shame leads to destruction. Shame and guilt are functional and important for mental health. Shame also regulates and makes us meet expectations and live up to our values.
Shame (closely related to guilt and regret) is an essential part of our survival and functioning and, in fact, is a gift from Mother Nature.
Shame’s function is pretty important. Basically, it helps to keep us in check.
If you want to reject shame, you do so at your own detriment.

[Logen Ninefingers]

There is some truth in what you say but shame is for us to impose on ourselves. It is not for someone in a forum to impose on others, for personal decisions such as who they vote for, or whether they get vaccinated. I regularly beat myself up about things I mismanaged, errors of judgement or whatever else. But I will not beat myself up for making a voting decision. I base my decisions on the information I have at the time.

The only people here, shaming others for their votes, are the right wing brigade/National/ACT supporters. I have not once seen anyone from the Left, shaming any of them, for which party they voted for at the last election.

I've seen plenty of this 'shaming' going on around here. In the TOP thread, if you say anything other than "TOP are fantastic!" then you get labelled an 'extreme right winger'. If you even try and debate that party for an extended period then you are labelled a 'troll'.

Here's an example of some of the comments by a Left wing commentator aimed at another site member:

'Do you realise how misearable and desperate you look'
'You are basically a caricature of Donald Trump'
'Are you that thick or are you just trolling?'

And then there was this blistering attack on another poster -
"You are making it blatantly clear that you are proud to have no social conscience at all. You are "in it" for yourself only, and do not give a rat's arse about your fellow Kiwis."

Totally uncalled for, but that is the Left for you. Agree with us and our policies or we will attempt to shame you by calling you 'selfish' and saying you lack a conscience.

[moka]

Shame is a real thing and it is not a spell. It is important. The absence of shame leads to destruction. Shame and guilt are functional and important for mental health. Shame also regulates and makes us meet expectations and live up to our values.
Shame (closely related to guilt and regret) is an essential part of our survival and functioning and, in fact, is a gift from Mother Nature.
Shame’s function is pretty important. Basically, it helps to keep us in check.
If you want to reject shame, you do so at your own detriment.I disagree that the absence of shame leads to destruction. It depends on your definition of shame. For me shame means I am a bad person. It is a feeling of worthlessness or inadequacy that arises from a belief that I am fundamentally flawed or defective.

Guilt means I did something bad. If I did something bad, then I made a mistake and I can learn from that error and move forward and grow. We need guilt, regret or remorse to keep us in check. We don’t need shame. If I am a bad person then it can be a downward spiral because I am useless, hopeless and that can lead to depression and despair.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I disagree that the absence of shame leads to destruction. It depends on your definition of shame. For me shame means I am a bad person. It is a feeling of worthlessness or inadequacy that arises from a belief that I am fundamentally flawed or defective.

Guilt means I did something bad. If I did something bad, then I made a mistake and I can learn from that error and move forward and grow. We need guilt, regret or remorse to keep us in check. We don’t need shame. If I am a bad person then it can be a downward spiral because I am useless, hopeless and that can lead to depression and despair.

So if we say someone is 'selfish' and 'lacking a conscience' then we are trying to use shame and guilt to achieve an outcome.

It is clear that the Left need to change their whole approach to how they do politics.

[justakiwi]

Very good point moka. On reflection, the first comment I made in my post above, was incorrect. It is not "shame" we impose on ourselves, but "guilt." Shame is what someone else imposes on us - the rest of my post correctly reflected that.





I disagree that the absence of shame leads to destruction. It depends on your definition of shame. For me shame means I am a bad person. It is a feeling of worthlessness or inadequacy that arises from a belief that I am fundamentally flawed or defective.

Guilt means I did something bad. If I did something bad, then I made a mistake and I can learn from that error and move forward and grow. We need guilt, regret or remorse to keep us in check. We don’t need shame. If I am a bad person then it can be a downward spiral because I am useless, hopeless and that can lead to depression and despair.

[davflaws]

The answer to why some men are angry all the time is that they are from the Left, they are social justice warriors, they want everything to be made ‘fair’, they rail against others as being ‘selfish’ and ‘greedy’. It just goes with the territory.

I sincerely hope you are not serious. I worked with men and couples for thirty of the last fifty years ,and specifically with men involved in Familoy Violence for twenty, and you are talking absolute nonsense. If this is your honest position, I stronly encourage you to engage with the menz movement. We welcome rednecks and treehuggfers, antivaxers, mandate opposers and family Drs who jab anyone they can catch. Straight, gay, trans - whatever!

Better men. Better partner, better parent, better boss, better employee, better friend

https://www.essentiallymen.net/

[Logen Ninefingers]

I sincerely hope you are not serious. I worked with men and couples for thirty of the last fifty years ,and specifically with men involved in Familoy Violence for twenty, and you are talking absolute nonsense. If this is your honest position, I stronly encourage you to engage with the menz movement. We welcome rednecks and treehuggfers, antivaxers, mandate opposers and family Drs who jab anyone they can catch. Straight, gay, trans - whatever!

Better men. Better partner, better parent, better boss, better employee, better friend

https://www.essentiallymen.net/

I was being facetious. In truth, I'm sure there are lots of angry people out there, not just left wingers.

[justakiwi]

Like hell you were.


I was being facetious.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Like hell you were.

I am sure there are lots of angry people out there, not just left wingers.

[Baa_Baa]

I am sure there are lots of angry people out there, not just left wingers.

I would have thought that the bias toward being angry, upset or even just disappointed would lean towards those who want a change in government? Our country seems to have gone backwards on so many fronts and the accolade that most of us survived Covid doesn't cut it anymore, the country overall is in a worse place than it was in 2017, let alone 2020. Understandable imo that there is plenty to be angry, upset or disappointed about. Vote for change.

[moka]

There is some truth in what you say but shame is for us to impose on ourselves. It is not for someone in a forum to impose on others, for personal decisions such as who they vote for, or whether they get vaccinated. I regularly beat myself up about things I mismanaged, errors of judgement or whatever else. But I will not beat myself up for making a voting decision. I base my decisions on the information I have at the time.

The only people here, shaming others for their votes, are the right wing brigade/National/ACT supporters. I have not once seen anyone from the Left, shaming any of them, for which party they voted for at the last election.I agree that feeling ashamed can be something we impose on ourselves. I can feel ashamed and that may come from my own interpretation of the situation.
Feeling Ashamed - Is an adjective. Comes from something you have done, said, thought, or felt, which makes you feel there is something wrong with you.
Being Shamed - Is a verb. Comes from someone else making you feel ashamed.

Shame is that dark, powerful feeling that holds us back. Yes, shame can stop us from acting inappropriately. But many of us have learned to attach shame to healthy behaviours that are in our best interest. In dysfunctional families shame can be tagged to healthy behaviours such as talking about feelings, making choices, taking care of ourselves, having fun, being successful, or even feeling good about ourselves. Shame can be attached to communicating honestly and directly.

[Balance]

Be truthful always and nothing to ever be ashamed of.

Yawn.

[justakiwi]

Wrong. There are many other things you can/should be ashamed of, other than being untruthful. Just saying.


Be truthful always and nothing to ever be ashamed of.

Yawn.

[Logen Ninefingers]

"Shame, shame, everybody knows your name"
- Rosco P. Coltrane

[Aaron]

Interesting Poll results in the herald this morning

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-1news-verian-poll-to-reveal-if-national-act-need-nz-first-and-if-labour-has-turned-things-around/74UOPZZ6DVB2ZMENCVH2JTY5TU/

All the parties polling unchanged EXCEPT ACT down 2% (to 10%) and TOP up 1% (to 2% a doubling of support but still 400% behind ACT). I am no mathematician but we are missing 1% (margin of error I guess).

What can we take from the result. Crazy extremists seeing the light and coming back to the centre? Perhaps Logen's rantings are putting people off? Who knows?? or cares for that matter.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Interesting Poll results in the herald this morning

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-1news-verian-poll-to-reveal-if-national-act-need-nz-first-and-if-labour-has-turned-things-around/74UOPZZ6DVB2ZMENCVH2JTY5TU/

All the parties polling unchanged EXCEPT ACT down 2% (to 10%) and TOP up 1% (to 2% a doubling of support but still 400% behind ACT). I am no mathematician but we are missing 1% (margin of error I guess).

What can we take from the result. Crazy extremists seeing the light and coming back to the centre? Perhaps Logen's rantings are putting people off? Who knows?? or cares for that matter.

So you’re saying the general public hang out at ‘Sharetrader’ en masse? I doubt it.

TOP are at 2%, so need to double their support again to get to 4%. Can they do it? 🤔

[Daytr]

So you’re saying the general public hang out at ‘Sharetrader’ en masse? I doubt it.

TOP are at 2%, so need to double their support again to get to 4%. Can they do it? 樂

Well going by the polling on here almost half are far right on the NZ political landscape.
According to you TOP are a socialist or Left party and its obvious that the audience here is far less left leaning and yet TOP is polling at 15% on Share Trader. Lots of undecideds out there particularly within the youth vote which a party like TOP would appeal to.
So, it's a stretch, but who knows?
Where was ACT polling in 2017 and for the 10 years prior and that was with the endorsement of National.
TOP are the little party who could...

[Logen Ninefingers]

Well going by the polling on here almost half are far right on the NZ political landscape.
According to you TOP are a socialist or Left party and its obvious that the audience here is far less left leaning and yet TOP is polling at 15% on Share Trader. Lots of undecideds out there particularly within the youth vote which a party like TOP would appeal to.
So, it's a stretch, but who knows?
Where was ACT polling in 2017 and for the 10 years prior and that was with the endorsement of National.
TOP are the little party who could...

‘Far right’ 😂

[fungus pudding]

The Greens look to be as popular on this poll as brussels sprouts are to a four year old.

[Daytr]

‘Far right’ 😂

Again you miss context. Far Right, in the NZ political landscape.
They are the farthest right of all the parties that have more than 1% support.
Don't you recognize yourself ?

[Daytr]

The Greens look to be as popular on this poll as brussels sprouts are to a four year old.

Not really surprising though when you have ACT polling on here at a multiple of 4.5 of the real world.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Not really surprising though when you have ACT polling on here at a multiple of 4.5 of the real world.

Well it might be ‘bugger the pollsters’ come election day. We won’t know ‘the truth’ until the votes are counted.

[Azz]

Again you miss context. Far Right, in the NZ political landscape.
They are the farthest right of all the parties that have more than 1% support.
Don't you recognize yourself ?

No. "Far Right" has connotations of "nationalist" parties. Act is not a nationalist party at all, nowhere near.

[Daytr]

No. "Far Right" has connotations of "nationalist" parties. Act is not a nationalist party at all, nowhere near.
In isolation yes.
In the context I provided, no.
Keep up fella

[Azz]

In isolation yes.
In the context I provided, no.
Keep up fella

You can't make up the context. "Far Right" is Far Right; and you should stop using it to describe Act.

[Daytr]

You can't make up the context. "Far Right" is Far Right; and you should stop using it to describe Act.

I can do what I like. 🤣
It's called freedom of speech, something ACT is very strong on.
Again keep up.

[Azz]

I can do what I like. 🤣
It's called freedom of speech, something ACT is very strong on.
Again keep up.

Freedom of speech, yes. But not:

"In isolation yes.
In the context I provided, no."

[justakiwi]

ACT is as far right as we have seen in NZ in my life time. It wasn't until I dug deeper that I realised just how far right. So in the NZ context, I think it is acceptable and apt description.


You can't make up the context. "Far Right" is Far Right; and you should stop using it to describe Act.

[Logen Ninefingers]

ACT is as far right as we have seen in NZ in my life time. It wasn't until I dug deeper that I realised just how far right. So in the NZ context, I think it is acceptable and apt description.

And just *how* far right is that? You’ve got no idea and are just making stuff up on the fly. 😂

[justakiwi]

Read my lips because obviously you struggle to read behind the scene requests. I am not interested in pursuing any further discussion with you. So just put me on ignore so you are not tempted to respond to my posts. You are a game player, and I am no longer playing with you.


And just *how* far right is that? You’ve got no idea and are just making stuff up on the fly. 

[Azz]

ACT is as far right as we have seen in NZ in my life time. It wasn't until I dug deeper that I realised just how far right. So in the NZ context, I think it is acceptable and apt description.

I have no problem with "further to the right of National", or "a right party" (as opposed to "a centre right party"), etc (and even those terms are not quite correct actually), but "Far Right" has definite connotations of something maybe you don't understand (and I don't mean that in a mean way), and Act is not a Far Right party, not even close.

[Daytr]

I have no problem with "further to the right of National", or "a right party" (as opposed to "a centre right party"), etc (and even those terms are not quite correct actually), but "Far Right" has definite connotations of something maybe you don't understand (and I don't mean that in a mean way), and Act is not a Far Right party, not even close.

In the NZ context it is Far Right.
It is the most right wing party I can think of ever in the NZ parliament.
So there is no further right than ACT, outside of fringe parties.
It makes me laugh as you NACT supporters continually throw around terms like Marxist, Communist, Socialist etc. but can't take the sane medicine.

We should just start calling them FRACT from now on. Far Right Act.

I would rather use an anagram using the first three letters of the first word and the last of the last word, because they stink!

[Azz]

In the NZ context it is Far Right.
It is the most right wing party I can think of ever in the NZ parliament.
So there is no further right than ACT, outside of fringe parties.
It makes me laugh as you NACT supporters continually throw around terms like Marxist, Communist, Socialist etc. but can't take the sane medicine.

We should just start calling them FRACT from now on. Far Right Act.

I would rather use an anagram using the first three letters of the first word and the last of the last word, because they stink!

It's like saying, "In the NZ context they're a Nazi party... I don't mean they're Nazis!"

[justakiwi]

You don't mean that in a "mean way?" And you wonder why you get negative rep?

Don't presume to know what I do or do not understand. How old are you? I'm probably old enough to be your mother! I know exactly what you mean in your argument re the term "Far right" but as I have already said, in the context of this discussion, in a conversation about New Zealand - ACT is​ Far Right by NZ standards, and I therefore have no problem with anyone using it.


I have no problem with "further to the right of National", or "a right party" (as opposed to "a centre right party"), etc (and even those terms are not quite correct actually), but "Far Right" has definite connotations of something maybe you don't understand (and I don't mean that in a mean way), and Act is not a Far Right party, not even close.

[Azz]

You don't mean that in a "mean way?" And you wonder why you get negative rep?

Don't presume to know what I do or do not understand. How old are you? I'm probably old enough to be your mother! I know exactly what you mean in your argument re the term "Far right" but as I have already said, in the context of this discussion, in a conversation about New Zealand - ACT is​ Far Right by NZ standards, and I therefore have no problem with anyone using it.

See my post about Nazi. I assume you understand what that word means.

[Daytr]

It's like saying, "In the NZ context they're a Nazi party... I don't mean they're Nazis!"

Nope that's you comparing ACT to a Nazi party not me.

[Azz]

And you wonder why you get negative rep?

From that f'wit BlackPeter, yes I do get negative Reputation. How would you like to be harassed on a constant basis into your inbox endless h*t comments from a total nutjob?

[justakiwi]

It is nothing like saying that :angry:




It's like saying, "In the NZ context they're a Nazi party... I don't mean they're Nazis!"


See my post about Nazi. I assume you understand what that word means.

[Azz]

Nope that's you comparing ACT to a Nazi party not me.

I'm not doing that at all, you idiot.

[justakiwi]

Oh FFS! I told you what to do. Go and change your freaking profile settings and turn reputation visibility OFF! Then you will get zero rep votes, and you'll be able to sleep at night.

Honest to God - this place is turning into a freaking Kindergarten.

P.S. I am "harassed by nut jobs" on a daily basis in these threads.



From that f'wit BlackPeter, yes I do get negative Reputation. How would you like to be harassed on a constant basis into your inbox endless h*t comments from a total nutjob?

[Azz]

It is nothing like saying that :angry:

"Historically, "far-right politics" has been used to describe the experiences of fascism, Nazism, and Falangism. Contemporary definitions now include neo-fascism, neo-Nazism, the Third Position, the alt-right, racial supremacism and other ideologies or organizations that feature aspects of authoritarian, ultra-nationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, theocratic, racist, homophobic, transphobic, or reactionary views."

[Azz]

Oh FFS! I told you what to do. Go and change your freaking profile settings and turn reputation visibility OFF! Then you will get zero rep votes, and you'll be able to sleep at night.

Honest to God - this place is turning into a freaking Kindergarten.

You're insinuating that I get lots of negative Reputation from people. But it's BlackPeter that does it. He's the one from the Kindergarten.

[Daytr]

I'm not doing that at all, you idiot.

And that's my point, neither was I.
You really don't do well on the subtleties like context do you.
You remind me of punch drunk boxer who doesn't know when to quit.

[Azz]

And that's my point, neither was I.
You really don't do well on the subtleties like context do you.
You remind me of punch drunk boxer who doesn't know when to quit.

Yes you were, and yes you are. You are deliberately using the term Far Right to describe Act when they are nothing of the sort. It's obvious what you're doing, and you throw up your hands in faux innocence when you are challenged.

[Daytr]

Yes you were, and yes you are. You are deliberately using the term Far Right to describe Act when they are nothing of the sort. It's obvious what you're doing, and you throw up your hands in faux innocence when you are challenged.

If you want to jump to that conclusion then so be it. I repeatedly said in the NZ political landscape.

How often as you referred to Marxists, Communists, Socialists etc?

If you wish I will change my anagram from FRACT to FART, either is appropriate. 🤣

[justakiwi]

Next time I create a poll I'm going to find a way to disable comments altogether. At least that way I won't keep getting sucked into futile and ridiculous, never-ending arguments, out of sheer frustration :angry:

[Azz]

If you want to jump to that conclusion then so be it. I repeatedly said in the NZ political landscape.

As I said, that is irrelevant. New Zealand does not have a single Far Right party that is polling over 1%. I don't even know if we have even one Far Right party in the election at all.


How often as you referred to Marxists, Communists, Socialists etc?

AFAIK, I've not done that on this site, not even once.

[Daytr]

Next time I create a poll I'm going to find a way to disable comments altogether. At least that way I won't keep getting sucked into futile and ridiculous, never-ending arguments, out of sheer frustration :angry:

Apologies Justakiwi.
Try not to take comments on here too seriously.

I know I shouldn't bait the child.
Whoops I have gone & done it again...

[moka]

I would have thought that the bias toward being angry, upset or even just disappointed would lean towards those who want a change in government? Our country seems to have gone backwards on so many fronts and the accolade that most of us survived Covid doesn't cut it anymore, the country overall is in a worse place than it was in 2017, let alone 2020. Understandable imo that there is plenty to be angry, upset or disappointed about. Vote for change.I agree that there are plenty of angry people out there. And more people are getting angry as this election campaign goes on. What I see with many of the comments on here is that Labour is being scapegoated especially because of Covid. It is convenient to blame the nanny state for not taking care of us during that time.
Many of the problems are global macro economic problems, not specifically because the Labour government was in power during that time. I don’t think the outcomes for NZ would have been much different if National was in power during Covid.

I see other groups being scapegoated too, beneficiaries, gangs and those at the lower end of the socio-economic scale. Scapegoating is a process of directing one's anger, frustration, and aggression onto others and targeting them as the source of one's problems and misfortunes.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I agree that there are plenty of angry people out there. And more people are getting angry as this election campaign goes on. What I see with many of the comments on here is that Labour is being scapegoated especially because of Covid. It is convenient to blame the nanny state for not taking care of us during that time.
Many of the problems are global macro economic problems, not specifically because the Labour government was in power during that time. I don’t think the outcomes for NZ would have been much different if National was in power during Covid.

I see other groups being scapegoated too, beneficiaries, gangs and those at the lower end of the socio-economic scale. Scapegoating is a process of directing one's anger, frustration, and aggression onto others and targeting them as the source of one's problems and misfortunes.

I see a lot of scapegoating going on. Hard working Kiwi’s are being lined up as the scapegoats for Labours failed policies & profligate wasteful spending. They are being labelled as ‘selfish’ and ‘greedy’ because the Leftist state is lining them up for more ‘Robin Hood’ redistribution & they refuse to put their heads in the noose that has been prepared for them. I see these Kiwi’s being scapegoated for Labours failure to maintain its popularity and electoral power.

I see lies being told down in Huntly where the theft of a sign was described in hysterical fashion as a ‘ram raid’. I see scapegoating of ‘white people’ as a reason for the failures of maori people to rid themselves of anger & violence. I see the scapegoating of an ‘elderly white man’ who came to wish someone well and instead was deliberately used in a puerile and disgraceful stunt by the amoral John Tamihere, who persecuted the elderly man in order to whip up hysteria about ‘racists’.

I see a maori elite attempting to amass wealth and power at the expense of national unity, while scapegoating ‘white people’ as a cover for their own malice and avarice.

Scapegoating is a process of directing one's anger, frustration, and aggression onto others and targeting them as the source of one's problems and misfortunes.

[moka]

If I had to summarise the problems in NZ and the world in one short sentence the quote below by Fan O’Sullivan says it for me.

Fran O’Sullivan 22:56 I think we're in a phase where people are past egalitarian values they actually want to get ahead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYqqfR2tg8I Post-1News Debate Analysis Show

We are in a dog eat dog world, a winner takes all world. Who cares about fairness, justice equality, I just want to maintain my privilege and entitlements and continue to get ahead. I will climb over others in the race to the top. And if someone else bears that cost, that is too bad. Call it selfish and greedy. It is all about me. I want to get ahead and if that is at someone else’s expense that is tough!

[Balance]

If I had to summarise the problems in NZ and the world in one short sentence the quote below by Fan O’Sullivan says it for me.

Fran O’Sullivan 22:56 I think we're in a phase where people are past egalitarian values they actually want to get ahead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYqqfR2tg8I Post-1News Debate Analysis Show

We are in a dog eat dog world, a winner takes all world. Who cares about fairness, justice equality, I just want to maintain my privilege and entitlements and continue to get ahead. I will climb over others in the race to the top. And if someone else bears that cost, that is too bad. Call it selfish and greedy. It is all about me. I want to get ahead and if that is at someone else’s expense that is tough!

Yup - sounds like the Labour Party, Greens and Maori Party!

Thank you for posting.

[Logen Ninefingers]

If I had to summarise the problems in NZ and the world in one short sentence the quote below by Fan O’Sullivan says it for me.

Fran O’Sullivan 22:56 I think we're in a phase where people are past egalitarian values they actually want to get ahead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYqqfR2tg8I Post-1News Debate Analysis Show

We are in a dog eat dog world, a winner takes all world. Who cares about fairness, justice equality, I just want to maintain my privilege and entitlements and continue to get ahead. I will climb over others in the race to the top. And if someone else bears that cost, that is too bad. Call it selfish and greedy. It is all about me. I want to get ahead and if that is at someone else’s expense that is tough!

We are in a dog eat dog world, a winner takes all world. Who cares about fairness, justice equality, I just want to maintain my privilege and entitlements and continue to get ahead. I will climb over others in the race to the top. And if someone else bears that cost, that is too bad. Call it selfish and greedy. It is all about me. I want to get ahead and if that is at someone else’s expense that is tough!

Which member of the Maori elite said that, if you don't mind me asking?

[iceman]

If I had to summarise the problems in NZ and the world in one short sentence the quote below by Fan O’Sullivan says it for me.

Fran O’Sullivan 22:56 I think we're in a phase where people are past egalitarian values they actually want to get ahead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYqqfR2tg8I Post-1News Debate Analysis Show

We are in a dog eat dog world, a winner takes all world. Who cares about fairness, justice equality, I just want to maintain my privilege and entitlements and continue to get ahead. I will climb over others in the race to the top. And if someone else bears that cost, that is too bad. Call it selfish and greedy. It is all about me. I want to get ahead and if that is at someone else’s expense that is tough!

You’re right but hold your breath, a change is coming in a couple of weeks

[thegreatestben]

Committed my ST vote to the actual ballot today. Not long to go now!

[Aaron]

If I had to summarise the problems in NZ and the world in one short sentence the quote below by Fan O’Sullivan says it for me.

Fran O’Sullivan 22:56 I think we're in a phase where people are past egalitarian values they actually want to get ahead.


Not surprising this sort of statement comes from a boomer. I think it is well known that the generation before the boomers paid high taxes and invested in the nation. State housing, tertiary education, roads etc etc. they actually went through hard times and came back from a war wanting to invest in the future of the country, made sacrifices for the benefit of future generations.

Once the boomers had their houses I have not got the figures but I imagine that is about the time govt investment in state houses slowed down, drop taxes and investment in infrastructure, user pays. Tertiary education became unaffordable after the last boomer graduated. The only govt. largesse we now see is 51% of the welfare spend on national superannuation with no asset or means testing for this, but the following generations are saving for their retirement through kiwisaver and they are paying for the boomer retirement through their taxes. There is talk of raising the retirement age sometime after the last boomer retires.

Fran with that statement just might be the perfect example of why NZ sucks and young people are leaving to go to Aussie in droves where they have better opportunities and better govt policy. Bernard Hickey gets it, Fran like many of her generation is just a selfish self-centred piece of s*it based on that statement and her age.

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/10/22/bernard-hickey-explains-why-the-nz-political-economy-is-doomed-and-why-i-love-listening-to-low-wage-exploiting-businesses-cry/

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/13-07-2023/so-this-is-how-the-story-ends

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/24-08-2022/bernard-hickey-all-roads-lead-to-a-land-tax

[777]

Not surprising this sort of statement comes from a boomer. I think it is well known that the generation before the boomers paid high taxes and invested in the nation. State housing, tertiary education, roads etc etc. they actually went through hard times and came back from a war wanting to invest in the future of the country, made sacrifices for the benefit of future generations.

Once the boomers had their houses I have not got the figures but I imagine that is about the time govt investment in state houses slowed down, drop taxes and investment in infrastructure, user pays. Tertiary education became unaffordable after the last boomer graduated. The only govt. largesse we now see is 51% of the welfare spend on national superannuation with no asset or means testing for this, but the following generations are saving for their retirement through kiwisaver and they are paying for the boomer retirement through their taxes. There is talk of raising the retirement age sometime after the last boomer retires.

Fran with that statement just might be the perfect example of why NZ sucks and young people are leaving to go to Aussie in droves where they have better opportunities and better govt policy. Bernard Hickey gets it, Fran like many of her generation is just a selfish self-centred piece of s*it based on that statement and her age.

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/10/22/bernard-hickey-explains-why-the-nz-political-economy-is-doomed-and-why-i-love-listening-to-low-wage-exploiting-businesses-cry/

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/13-07-2023/so-this-is-how-the-story-ends

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/24-08-2022/bernard-hickey-all-roads-lead-to-a-land-tax

Get over yourself. No ones interested in your repetitive, ill informed swipes at a group of people you have decided are cause of your woes. Get of off your butt and make a life for yourself. You will be blaming colonisation next for you inadequacies. Anything you can grab on.

[blackcap]

Get over yourself. No ones interested in your repetitive, ill informed swipes at a group of people you have decided are cause of your woes. Get of off your butt and make a life for yourself. You will be blaming colonisation next for you inadequacies. Anything you can grab on.

Those under 40 really are the whinge generation. Want everything served to them on a platter and look to government to fix their perceived woes, rather than get off their butts and do something about it.

[thegreatestben]

Hey now, I certainly don’t fall into that group and never did. There’s plenty of us that have and do work hard, contribute and sacrifice.

I recognise we may not be the majority, but we exist.

[Aaron]

Get over yourself. No ones interested in your repetitive, ill informed swipes at a group of people you have decided are cause of your woes. Get of off your butt and make a life for yourself. You will be blaming colonisation next for you inadequacies. Anything you can grab on.

Sorry about that, an unnecessarily nasty post. I was in a bad mood that day and wanted to lash out at someone.

Not sure if it is totally ill informed though, I am not smart or informed enough to have original ideas so they tend to come from what I read from other people. What Bernard Hickey was saying seemed to ring true to me.

You do not like the post fair enough but are you disputing anything in it? I will admit Fran is probably not a piece of s*it as suggested, But the other things are true although the things put forward are only the negative ones to back my argument.

We might be on a similar path as the US in this regard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXAEw8psMuQ

I should not be attacking anyone but people smarter than me have highlighted the inequities of our current policies. I am not sure why they are not being discussed or changed, I assume because the people who are benefiting do not want to see any change and they vote and the politicians need to pander to them to get into or stay in power.

Don't worry about me though, I am doing OK. Working hard and being productive unless I am posting on here.

[Bjauck]

I think the thrust of NZ’s family trust, tax regime and policies in general were mostly in place before Boomers were in charge. I think they were designed for a farmer based economy so that the large farms could remain intact and not sold off or divided to pay taxes, that exist in other countries, such as inheritance or capital gains tax.

So NZ has got what the electorate back then wanted - a land owning gentry, with an unsophisticated low productivity service sector and companies increasingly owned by off-shore interests. Without major reform the major parties just tinker around the edges.

[Balance]

I think the thrust of NZ’s family trust, tax regime and policies in general were mostly in place before Boomers were in charge. I think they were designed for a farmer based economy so that the large farms could remain intact and not sold off or divided to pay taxes, that exist in other countries, such as inheritance or capital gains tax.

So NZ has got what the electorate back then wanted - a land owning gentry, with an unsophisticated low productivity service sector and companies increasingly owned by off-shore interests. Without major reform the major parties just tinker around the edges.

Actually NZ used to be substantially owned overseas if you go back to the 50s, 60s and early 70s.

The farming sector is the backbone of the NZ economy and has allowed other industries like education, tourism, wine and tech to build up over time.

Agree with you however that major reform is well overdue in NZ.

[Bjauck]

Actually NZ used to be substantially owned overseas if you go back to the 50s, 60s and early 70s.

The farming sector is the backbone of the NZ economy and has allowed other industries like education, tourism, wine and tech to build up over time.

Agree with you however that major reform is well overdue in NZ. In the 1970’s we still had an array of big NZ government owned business too. I am not sure how policies favouring farming may have “allowed” other sectors to flourish.

[moka]

Sorry about that, an unnecessarily nasty post. I was in a bad mood that day and wanted to lash out at someone.

Not sure if it is totally ill informed though, I am not smart or informed enough to have original ideas so they tend to come from what I read from other people. What Bernard Hickey was saying seemed to ring true to me.

You do not like the post fair enough but are you disputing anything in it? I will admit Fran is probably not a piece of s*it as suggested, But the other things are true although the things put forward are only the negative ones to back my argument.

We might be on a similar path as the US in this regard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXAEw8psMuQ

I should not be attacking anyone but people smarter than me have highlighted the inequities of our current policies. I am not sure why they are not being discussed or changed, I assume because the people who are benefiting do not want to see any change and they vote and the politicians need to pander to them to get into or stay in power.

Don't worry about me though, I am doing OK. Working hard and being productive unless I am posting on here.The video link you posted was No Free Lunches - Seniors Benefit at the Expense of Our Kids: Stan Druckenmiller at TEDxWallStreet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXAEw8psMuQ
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXAEw8psMuQ)
And you say people smarter than me have highlighted the inequities of our current policies, and I presume you mean Stan Druckenmiller.

The solution to the problem is for the rich to pay more tax, not to have seniors and kids fighting over a few crumbs from the table. But tax is not even discussed. Druckenmiller says in the video that he is helping children in Harlem:
2:13 I'm chairman of the Harlem Children's Zone. I am promising three-year-olds that if they play by the rules and stay in school when they graduate in 20 years there'll be a job waiting for them and a shot at the American dream.

It sounds nice, compassionate etc, but providing education for kids is the government’s job, education, healthcare etc funded by taxes. And the quote reminds of me of religion, suffer on earth and when you die you will go to heaven. An empty promise to children because Druckenmller can’t guarantee there will be jobs for these kids in 20 years.

[Aaron]

And you say people smarter than me have highlighted the inequities of our current policies, and I presume you mean Stan Druckenmiller.

No I was mostly meaning Bernard Hickey as what he writes is more relevant to NZ, as for Stanley D I just remembering listening to him about the issue in the States and wondered if the situation in NZ was similar.

Guys like Stanley and Ray Dalio have all the answers and can play the markets but paying more taxes is never one of their solutions for the world.

Smaller govt and lower taxes is the answer per David Seymour and ACT despite the fact that the wealthiest countries on the planet ALL have strong public institutions funded by taxation and the happiest countries appear to be even more heavily taxed. But David like any idealogue will push forward with his beliefs despite proof to the contrary. That said I like the idea of cutting govt expenditure on useless crap.

Also guys like Gareth Morgan and I think Stephen Tindall spoke up once and was accused of virtue signaling. Colin Maiden sounded reasonable but I have not read his book.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/sir-colin-maidens-new-book-is-new-zealand-a-fortunate-country/S2OQI35MXVH7HA7FSN3O4UFBQE/

[thegreatestben]

In longer format and unedited sources you'll find ACT are talking about this specifically when they campaign on cutting govt waste. This will involve job cuts, it's hard to argue against the logic when you see the FTE increases across the public sector. It's not in the places you want to see more people (doctors, nurses, teachers, police etc...)



Smaller govt and lower taxes is the answer per David Seymour and ACT despite the fact that the wealthiest countries on the planet ALL have strong public institutions funded by taxation and the happiest countries appear to be even more heavily taxed. But David like any idealogue will push forward with his beliefs despite proof to the contrary. That said I like the idea of cutting govt expenditure on useless crap.

[Aaron]

Interesting policy from National

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-how-much-nzs-350000-beneficiaries-will-miss-out-on-under-nationals-changes/37M33ZQSBBC6ZJHQNDFU5SY2TA/

Indexing benefits to inflation rather than wages I don't care either way but I was wondering if anyone knew why national superannuation was excluded from this proposed change? It just seems inconsistent to me.

777 or Blackcap might know???

[Blue Skies]

Interesting policy from National

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-how-much-nzs-350000-beneficiaries-will-miss-out-on-under-nationals-changes/37M33ZQSBBC6ZJHQNDFU5SY2TA/

Indexing benefits to inflation rather than wages I don't care either way but I was wondering if anyone knew why national superannuation was excluded from this proposed change? It just seems inconsistent to me.

777 or Blackcap might know???


Indexing Benefits to inflation rather than wages is projected to save the govt $2 Billion over 5 years as inflation comes down while wages go up ahead of inflation.
National plan to transfer that to landlords with policy adjustments which will cost $2 Billion in the form of bringing back tax deductibility on rentals giving the 300 landlords who own more than 20 properties $1.3 Million each & others with fewer properties the balance of the $2 Billion.

Beneficiaries will be $17,000 worse off over 5 years & Superannuanants (who are also classified as Beneficiaries under the Act ) were given an exclusion as they nearly all vote & are a core constituency of the National Party, whereas far fewer other beneficiaries vote.

[Aaron]

Indexing Benefits to inflation rather than wages is projected to save the govt $2 Billion over 5 years as inflation comes down while wages go up ahead of inflation.
National plan to transfer that to landlords with policy adjustments which will cost $2 Billion in the form of bringing back tax deductibility on rentals giving the 300 landlords who own more than 20 properties $1.3 Million each & others with fewer properties the balance of the $2 Billion.

Beneficiaries will be $17,000 worse off over 5 years & Superannuanants (who are also classified as Beneficiaries under the Act ) were given an exclusion as they nearly all vote & are a core constituency of the National Party, whereas far fewer other beneficiaries vote.

Are you suggesting that Super annuitants will support legislation as long as it only affects others adversely but not themselves?

If National were doing this to cut costs and felt it was the right thing to do surely as national superannuation makes up more than 50% of the welfare budget they would include it as that would save a further $2billion.

You had best be careful as it sounds like you are suggesting one class of beneficiary voting for National are effectively shi**ing on other beneficiaries that doesn't sound right.

I guess the 300 landlords of which you speak will create jobs and growth for NZ with the extra $2billion they keep. I know Chris Luxon will be happy. I wonder if any of the 300 landlords are receiving national superannuation as well?? That wouldn't seem right would it?

[Balance]

Indexing Benefits to inflation rather than wages is projected to save the govt $2 Billion over 5 years as inflation comes down while wages go up ahead of inflation.
National plan to transfer that to landlords with policy adjustments which will cost $2 Billion in the form of bringing back tax deductibility on rentals giving the 300 landlords who own more than 20 properties $1.3 Million each & others with fewer properties the balance of the $2 Billion.

Beneficiaries will be $17,000 worse off over 5 years & Superannuanants (who are also classified as Beneficiaries under the Act ) were given an exclusion as they nearly all vote & are a core constituency of the National Party, whereas far fewer other beneficiaries vote.

Straight out of Labour Party misinformation internal booklet released last week for their shills to use.

No need for any further confirmation that Blue Skies is a paid Labour shill.

[Blue Skies]

Are you suggesting that Super annuitants will support legislation as long as it only affects others adversely but not themselves?

If National were doing this to cut costs and felt it was the right thing to do surely as national superannuation makes up more than 50% of the welfare budget they would include it as that would save a further $2billion.

You had best be careful as it sounds like you are suggesting one class of beneficiary voting for National are effectively shi**ing on other beneficiaries that doesn't sound right.

I guess the 300 landlords of which you speak will create jobs and growth for NZ with the extra $2billion they keep. I know Chris Luxon will be happy. I wonder if any of the 300 landlords are receiving national superannuation as well?? That wouldn't seem right would it?



National like Labour & Act & other parties are all in a desperate race for power. Do you really think National are going to risk shafting one of their core constituencies Super annuitants by making them $17,000 worse off than if they voted for Labour, days out from the election ?

Why else do you think they have been carved out from other beneficiaries & given special treatment?

Landlords don't create new jobs or growth in any meaningful way. Houses still need maintenance etc regardless if owned by landlords or home owners.
I would far rather see billions invested in innovative & successful NZ companies esp those providing export receipts, & people growing their wealth through the sharemarket than the current obsession with property.

[Aaron]

National like Labour & Act & other parties are all in a desperate race for power. Do you really think National are going to risk shafting one of their core constituencies Super annuitants by making them $17,000 worse off than if they voted for Labour, days out from the election ?

Why else do you think they have been carved out from other beneficiaries & given special treatment?

Landlords don't create new jobs or growth in any meaningful way. Houses still need maintenance etc regardless if owned by landlords or home owners.
I would far rather see billions invested in innovative & successful NZ companies esp those providing export receipts, & people growing their wealth through the sharemarket than the current obsession with property.

So I guess it is just Chris Luxon and National sticking it to the bottom feeders with the support of 37% of the country. Policy we can really be proud of as a nation.

Mind you look at rents and house prices to income under Labour, with Chippy ruling out a capital gains tax you suspect he is happy sticking it to the bottom feeders as well or totally incompetent.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/rents-up-eye-watering-amount-as-gap-between-demand-supply-widens-trade-me/ar-AA1i3KTQ?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=2eb9394fbc924af5bd2abb11ba423595&ei=9

[moka]

Interesting policy from National

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-how-much-nzs-350000-beneficiaries-will-miss-out-on-under-nationals-changes/37M33ZQSBBC6ZJHQNDFU5SY2TA/

Indexing benefits to inflation rather than wages I don't care either way but I was wondering if anyone knew why national superannuation was excluded from this proposed change? It just seems inconsistent to me.

777 or Blackcap might know???
Historically NZS has been indexed differently to benefits. NZS - indexed to average wage, benefits indexed to CPI. Wages historically have risen faster than inflation.

New Zealand Superannuation was introduced in 1977 by the Third National government and was renamed New Zealand Superannuation in 1993. The scheme was a universal (not means-tested) scheme that paid 80% of the average wage to married people over 60.

The NZS was initially linked to 80% of average wage levels, but in 1989, it was no longer linked to wage levels and instead was increased by the lesser of price and wage.

NZ Super is adjusted every year. Last year’s increase was linked to the average wage, at a time when earnings were increasing faster than inflation. This year, NZS has been increased in line with inflation to help combat rapidly rising living costs.

The after-tax NZ Super rate for couples (who both qualify) was based on 66% of the ‘average ordinary time wage’ after tax. For single people, the after-tax NZ superannuation rate is around 40% of that average wage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_in_New_Zealand
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_in_New_Zealand)
Benefits - prior to 2019, benefits, apart from superannuation, increased at the rate of CPI inflation (minus the inflation in tobacco and alcohol).

In 2019, the New Zealand government changed the annual adjustment of main benefits, indexing them to the average wage.
This was done to ensure that benefit rates would rise in line with wages, which historically have risen faster than inflation.
However, in 2021, inflation rose ahead of wages, causing the government to intervene and adjust benefits for inflation rather than wages.

In March 2023, the annual wage cost inflation remained at 4.3%.
In September 2023, the Labour party announced that they would retain fixing increases to benefits over time to increases in average wages.