Nat/act/nzf 2023

[Entrep]

Would giving one race either the North or South Island, and "the others" the remaining island work?

Just trying to come up with solutions to match thinking that all people of New Zealand are not equal.

[dobby41]

You have missed the point entirely. Europeans wrote the Te Reo version.....as a translation of what they had already written in english. There was no confusion. The insult piled on the signatories that they didn't understand what they signed is extraordinary. It certainly wasn't a position supported by Sir Apirana Ngata who is also being crapped upon by the new so called more knowledgeable Maori elites and fawning pakeha.

I don't think I missed the point.
I agree that the English wrote the Te Reo version - the one that most Maori signed - so that's the one that counts!

[mistaTea]

I don't think I missed the point.
I agree that the English wrote the Te Reo version - the one that most Maori signed - so that's the one that counts!

Yeah and even though it is clear that England intended full sovereignty etc…

But that is not what the Te Reo contract says.

And my understanding is that this is what led to the NZ Wars. Some tribes had a very different understanding to what the 3 key articles meant.

And we have to separate what we believe about TOW from what we actually know.

I have been quick to jump on the bandwagon about Maori knowing damn well they were ceding sovereignty and didn’t think they were getting a 50/50 JV with Queen Vic etc etc.

C*ck sure of myself as usual of course.

Yet all of those statements are just beliefs.

I don’t actually KNOW it to be true.

And this is the feeling of unease developing in me. I need to know more about it, not just rely on beliefs I have largely inherited.

How else are we to move forward as a nation and develop enduring solutions? Instead of repeating the cycle.

[Balance]

So why are the Māoris so scared of a debate and discussion on the TOW?

Our way or else violence & civil war is their stance & message.

17% against the rest of NZ - so be it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Yeah and even though it is clear that England intended full sovereignty etc…

But that is not what the Te Reo contract says.

And my understanding is that this is what led to the NZ Wars. Some tribes had a very different understanding to what the 3 key articles meant.

And we have to separate what we believe about TOW from what we actually know.

I have been quick to jump on the bandwagon about Maori knowing damn well they were ceding sovereignty and didn’t think they were getting a 50/50 JV with Queen Vic etc etc.

C*ck sure of myself as usual of course.

Yet all of those statements are just beliefs.

I don’t actually KNOW it to be true.

And this is the feeling of unease developing in me. I need to know more about it, not just rely on beliefs I have largely inherited.

How else are we to move forward as a nation and develop enduring solutions? Instead of repeating the cycle.

Have a read of the explanation of Sir Apirana Ngata which he set down in 1922, then consider the reinterpretation that goes on daily by modern day Maori separatists & radicals.

https://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-NgaTrea-t1-g1-t1.html

[Bjauck]

So why are the Māoris so scared of a debate and discussion on the TOW?

Our way or else violence & civil war is their stance & message.

17% against the rest of NZ - so be it. The possibility of tyranny from the majority? The majority may be willing to "forget" previous injustices and "happy" for the minority to continue to have worse social outcomes compared to the majority, blaming the minority for their predicament.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Yeah and even though it is clear that England intended full sovereignty etc…

But that is not what the Te Reo contract says.

And my understanding is that this is what led to the NZ Wars. Some tribes had a very different understanding to what the 3 key articles meant.

And we have to separate what we believe about TOW from what we actually know.

I have been quick to jump on the bandwagon about Maori knowing damn well they were ceding sovereignty and didn’t think they were getting a 50/50 JV with Queen Vic etc etc.

C*ck sure of myself as usual of course.

Yet all of those statements are just beliefs.

I don’t actually KNOW it to be true.

And this is the feeling of unease developing in me. I need to know more about it, not just rely on beliefs I have largely inherited.

How else are we to move forward as a nation and develop enduring solutions? Instead of repeating the cycle.

1860 – Kohimarama Conference

'The Kohimarama Conference was held in Auckland in July 1860 and was attended by over 200 chiefs mainly from the North Island. It was one of the largest and the most influential Maori gatherings ever held. The conference revealed the nature of Maori comprehension of the Treaty signed 20 years earlier; in fact it was referred to as a covenant between Maori and European, not Maori and the Crown. Some chiefs were afraid the government might use the King Movement in the Waikato to abrogate the Treaty, a threat that had been made by the Governor and argued in favour of a renewed commitment to the Treaty. “Do not consent that the Treaty should be for the Europeans alone, but let us take it for ourselves. Let this meeting be joined to the Treaty of Waitangi, let us urge upon the Government not to withhold it from us”.

The Conference finished with a resolution passed unanimously at the last session. “That this conference takes cognisance of the fact that several chiefs, members thereof, are pledged to each other to do nothing inconsistent with their declared recognition of the Queen’s sovereignty, and of the unions of the two races”. (No partnership with Crown).'

[Logen Ninefingers]

The possibility of tyranny from the majority? The majority may be willing to "forget" previous injustices and "happy" for the minority to continue to have worse social outcomes compared to the majority, blaming the minority for their predicament.

I know the Leftist mindset: when we elect a new right of centre government that is the 'tyranny of the majority', and when we elect a new left of centre government that is 'a glorious demonstration of the miracle that is democracy'.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The possibility of tyranny from the majority? The majority may be willing to "forget" previous injustices and "happy" for the minority to continue to have worse social outcomes compared to the majority, blaming the minority for their predicament.

You've failed to explain how your new 'Maori - Crown co-governance of Aotearoa New Zealand / separatist systems for Maori' arrangement is guaranteed to improve Maori social outcomes. It's just a daft assumption, like how the Ardern government would "do it!", the USSR would be a utopia on earth, communism will be the greatest thing ever if only it's done on a global basis.....the Left are willing to tear down and destroy based on their gut feeling, and it's "oops" if anarchy and / or totalitarianism eventuate instead.

The other head scratcher is how separate systems for Maori would be funded. No doubt from tribal revenues?

[Balance]

The possibility of tyranny from the majority? The majority may be willing to "forget" previous injustices and "happy" for the minority to continue to have worse social outcomes compared to the majority, blaming the minority for their predicament.

What were the treaty settlements about then? And the Waitangi Tribunal?

I do not see any abrogation on the part of the majority in NZ of their responsibilities to redress past wrongs against Maoris. And I believe all fair minded NZers are in total agreement that grevious wrongs and harm had been done against Māoris.

What I do see however is the continuous attempts of Maoris, led by the fat cat Maori elites, to broaden the scope of the Treaty towards separatism. And who are the biggest beneficiaries of the separatism push? The fat cats Maori elite who could not care a stuff about general Maori wellbeing.

They happened to hit the jackpot with Clueless Ardern and now expect all governments to behave like her.

[nztx]

Like to hop back on the Gravy Train, Darling ? ;)

https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350154021/chris-luxon-meets-jacinda-ardern-over-special-envoy-job

Chris Luxon meets Jacinda Ardern over special envoy job

[Bjauck]

I know the Leftist mindset: when we elect a new right of centre government that is the 'tyranny of the majority', and when we elect a new left of centre government that is 'a glorious demonstration of the miracle that is democracy'. LOL. I am certainly to the left of you.

[Bjauck]

What were the treaty settlements about then? And the Waitangi Tribunal?

I do not see any abrogation on the part of the majority in NZ of their responsibilities to redress past wrongs against Maoris. And I believe all fair minded NZers are in total agreement that grevious wrongs and harm had been done against Māoris.

What I do see however is the continuous attempts of Maoris, led by the fat cat Maori elites, to broaden the scope of the Treaty towards separatism. And who are the biggest beneficiaries of the separatism push? The fat cats Maori elite who could not care a stuff about general Maori wellbeing.

They happened to hit the jackpot with Clueless Ardern and now expect all governments to behave like her.For the future, I don't think the current Coalition has ruled out ACT's proposed referendum. With The Treaty Principles Bill the devil will be in the detail. Principles? Whatever they are, what effect will it have on the rights and duties in The Treaty for both Iwi and The Crown?

[Balance]

For the future, I don't think the current Coalition has ruled out ACT's proposed referendum. With The Treaty Principles Bill the devil will be in the detail. Principles? Whatever they are, what effect will it have on the rights and duties in The Treaty for both Iwi and The Crown?

Precisely why there must be robust and open discussion & debate about the TOW.

Why are the fat cat elite Māoris so scared of that?

[Balance]

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2024/01/members-of-ng-ti-kahu-iwi-threaten-to-stop-annual-northland-fishing-competition-block-boat-ramps.html

Annual charitable fishing event which has been held for over 40 years now under threat from Maori protest action.

[Logen Ninefingers]

For years the media asked almost no questions about the ‘co governance’ agenda. Now they want to place the blame elsewhere for the mess that the country is in; they are as culpable as the last government, they were complicit.

[Balance]

For years the media asked almost no questions about the ‘co governance’ agenda. Now they want to place the blame elsewhere for the mess that the country is in; they are as culpable as the last government, they were complicit.

The media was bought off with the $55m ‘media corruption’ fund.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The media was bought off with the $55m ‘media corruption’ fund.

Have you seen this document before?

https://d3r9t6niqlb7tz.cloudfront.net/media/documents/2022_03_Irirangi_te_Motu_NZ_on_Air_Te_Tiriti_frame work_only_for_News_Media.pdf

[Balance]

Have you seen this document before?

https://d3r9t6niqlb7tz.cloudfront.net/media/documents/2022_03_Irirangi_te_Motu_NZ_on_Air_Te_Tiriti_frame work_only_for_News_Media.pdf

Here is Chris Trotter's take on how the MSM was corrupted by the $55m fund :

https://thebfd.co.nz/2023/10/23/the-curious-demise-of-nzs-msm/

" .......the state had offered the MSM the life-line of a $55 million “Public Interest Journalism Fund”. Less generally known, but offering incontrovertible confirmation of just how supine the MSM had become, were the terms and conditions which the MSM had to accept before the money could flow. Proprietors and editors had to sign up to a frankly revolutionary definition of the Treaty of Waitangi’s meaning and acquiesce to its logical political implications. That all the major media enterprises ended up signing on the dotted line was astounding.

Given that the ‘decolonising’ and ‘indigenising’ agenda imposed by the Sixth Labour Government played a crucial role in undermining its electoral support (the exigencies of Covid-19 having long since put paid to the Politics of Kindness!), the MSM’s unwavering support for that agenda – manifested by the near universal editorial refusal to allow any meaningful debate over its content – was in every way complicit with the alienation of Labour’s support.

Indeed, the MSM’s abject failure to fulfil its democratic duty as both the creator and presenter of informed – and diverse – public opinion was compounded by its strident promotion of all things pertaining to the decolonisation and indigenisation of New Zealand – sorry, Aotearoan – society. In this regard, when even the delivery of the weather forecast became an opportunity for indoctrination."

https://thebfd.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Pushing-it.jpeg

[FTG]

Well overdue to take the TOW discussions to a more suitable thread. Please go here...

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12832-Treaty-of-Waitangi-(TOW)&p=1037990#post1037990

[Getty]

Well overdue to take the TOW discussions to a more suitable thread. Please go here...

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12832-Treaty-of-Waitangi-(TOW)&p=1037990#post1037990

Good to have a dedicated thread, although there will always be spillover on the political threads, because that's what it's become.

But why hide it behind a firewall?

Let it all hang out under the Elections sub title.

[Balance]

The woke leftist losers (a minority but with the support of their counterparts in the MSM) and similarly, posters like davflaws do not see, read or hear the implied threats of violence and civil war unless the Maori elites and fat cats get their way in everything they want.

And the Maori elites & fat cats have had the benefit of 6 years of Ardern & Hipkins bending over and giving in on everything they wanted.

So in the context of the above threats of violence and civil war, I do warn that NZers better brace themselves for years of strife and conflict ahead.

And as I have posted before, so be it if there is civil war in NZ as threatened by the Maori separatists and elites.

The majority of NZers, who voted out Labour & the left, surely are perfectly entitled to defend themselves against the threat.

https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-national/warning-m%C4%81ori-will-go-war-over-acts-treaty-referendum

"Top Labour MP Willie Jackson says Māori have told him they would "go to war" over ACT's proposal for a referendum on the Treaty of Waitangi."


"I'm just giving a warning: I work amongst our people ... who will go to war for this, war against [ACT leader David] Seymour and his mates."

[COLOR="#0000FF"]https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/maori-king-calls-for-hope-over-protest-while-dismissing-govt-treaty-bill/M2EXZG3JLNHTPFKEEUFK7Z5QXY/

'....... alter the influence of the Treaty could lead to “hikois from hell” and civil unrest akin to the 1981 Springbok tour."

'......the coalition Government was “part of a global movement of white supremacy” while some threatened protest and even secession from the Crown if change wasn’t forthcoming.'

' .... the iwi also restated its regular position in favour of seceding from the Government if policies that undermined Māori sovereignty were pursued.'

https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350102894/don-brash-why-we-need-referendum-treaty

"Green Party leader James Shaw warned there could be wide-scale disruption leading to violence if ACT’s Seymour is successful in getting National’s Christopher Luxon to agree to his referendum on the Treaty”. Te Pāti Māori president John Tamihere added that if Maori were backed into a corner it would spark a civil disobedience movement that would shut down the country’s major cities.”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/outrage-over-maori-lecturer-who-lined-up-new-zealand-colonisation-with-palestine-and-what-the-university-bosses-had-to-say/IWVDON73LRD6XHWPIUGIMF7CZA/

' .... Borrell allegedly forecast violence in New Zealand as a result of Māori not achieving equity. He said it would be “offensive to Māori, who do not wish to be compared to Hamas”.

Deafening silence from davflaws and MT.

They fell right into the trap of showing either their total ignorance of what’s happening out there or closing both eyes to what’s happening.

None as blind as those with eyes but will not see.

None as deaf as those with eyes but will not hear.

None as dumb as those with mouth but will not speak.

[mistaTea]

Deafening silence from davflaws and MT.

They fell right into the trap of showing either their total ignorance of what’s happening out there or closing both eyes to what’s happening.

None as blind as those with eyes but will not see.

None as deaf as those with eyes but will not hear.

None as dumb as those with mouth but will not speak.

Hey Balance,

I should have acknowledged your post. Have not had time to read through all of what you have posted, so will try to make some time later.

From what I have glanced over so far, I don't think I have seen anyone saying that they would like a good civil war to sort things out. You may think that is semantics, but I think politicians saying they think govt policies could lead to unrest is just a statement (and something National is consciously aware of I think, given they are going to great pains at the moment to distance themselves from the ACT Treaty Principles Bill).

If anyone else is out there saying they want a civil war if the govt doesnt do this, that or the other I will take a very dim view on that too.

My main focus right now is not continuing a back and forth on the civil war comment, or whether davflaws was right to report you etc. All I have said is I do not condone that kind of talk from anyone (and though it has been suggested you were just kidding, there is no way to actually 'know' that given the high energy posts you often make on these subjects).

For now, I want to reorientate myself on TOW because a big conversation/debate is coming on the topic and I need to make sure I am not going to form fast judgements on beliefs rather than what I actually truly know.

My suggestion is we cool off on the mudslinging as it is only going to further entrench deeply held beliefs and reduce any prospect of attaining true wisdom.

[Entrep]

Let it all hang out under the Elections sub title.

I'd argue it should be the number one topic on any forum, platform or website in New Zealand.

As what the left are arguing for is essentially the dissolution of New Zealand, and the rights and privileges that ALL New Zealanders currently enjoy, as we know it.

No sh*t we need a referendum on it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I'd argue it should be the number one topic on any forum, platform or website in New Zealand.

As what the left are arguing for is essentially the dissolution of New Zealand, and the rights and privileges that ALL New Zealanders currently enjoy, as we know it.

No sh*t we need a referendum on it.

I think the Left have tried to get a to a certain place via stealth and subterfuge, over a multi-decade period of time, and then the disastrous 2020 election result gave Labour and its Maori caucus a window of opportunity to accelerate the process and simply ram ‘co-governance’ and separatism through. This ‘full court press’ by the Left not only took the form of legislation and the likes of ‘3 Waters’, but also via the school classroom, via the public service, and also via instructions to the mainstream media.

Basically Maori since 2020 came to believe that they had official support for the view that they ‘did not cede sovereignty’, & that they would henceforth govern over other New Zealanders in conjunction with ‘the Crown’ (NZ Government) in a ‘partnership’. This utter change in mindset is what is ‘divisive’ in all of this.

Divisive
- adjective
tending to cause disagreement or hostility between people.

[mistaTea]

I think the Left have tried to get a to a certain place via stealth and subterfuge, over a multi-decade period of time, and then the disastrous 2020 election result gave Labour and its Maori caucus a window of opportunity to accelerate the process and simply ram ‘co-governance’ and separatism through. This ‘full court press’ by the Left not only took the form of legislation and the likes of ‘3 Waters’, but also via the school classroom, via the public service, and also via instructions to the mainstream media.

Basically Maori since 2020 came to believe that they had official support for the view that they ‘did not cede sovereignty’, & that they would henceforth govern over other New Zealanders in conjunction with ‘the Crown’ (NZ Government) in a ‘partnership’. This utter change in mindset is what is ‘divisive’ in all of this.

Divisive
- adjective
tending to cause disagreement or hostility between people.

Yes, even if it turns out there is merit in a change of approach as proposed by some... it cannot be denied that the delivery was screwed up.

And the end result has been hostility driven by fear driven by uncertainty.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Yes, even if it turns out there is merit in a change of approach as proposed by some... it cannot be denied that the delivery was screwed up.

And the end result has been hostility driven by fear driven by uncertainty.

Fear of 'uncertainty'? No, it is a fear of certainty. If Maori + Crown governing all other New Zealanders under a co-governance 'partnership' arrangement became the certainty, the reality of how this country was governed, then New Zealand as a representative democracy would be finished. You might think ending our democracy is an idea that has merit, but most will not.

[davflaws]

Deafening silence from davflaws and MT.


In the unlikely event that you actually want to engage, I will provide correctice context to your referenced claims on the TOW thread on the "Off Market Discussions" forum as soon as I have completed analysis of Jonu's Global Warming claims.
From a quick look at your references, you have omitted (perhaps conveniently) that the people you quote as supporting violence actually condemn it but warn that the Act Referendum proposal is likely to lead to civil unrest. A fuller analysi on the other thread in the next few days.

[Logen Ninefingers]

An academic paper attached regarding 'An insecure secularity? Religion, decolonisation and diversification in Aotearoa New Zealand', published in November 2023.

Interesting phrase in their synopsis. So-called 'decolonisation' is apparently a 'moral imperative', and that is apparently recognised by 'the state'.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/375504910_An_insecure_secularity_Religion_decoloni sation_and_diversification_in_Aotearoa_New_Zealand

'The question of the location of religion in the public sphere is always a matter of the logics, practices, and politics of secularism. While mythologies of a linear secular teleology have been thoroughly critiqued, the ongoing trajectories for both religious and secular politics are contested and emergent. New Zealand provides an important context for examining these dynamics. While New Zealand is frequently referenced as among the most secular nations in the world, with census data tracking a precipitous disaffiliation from Christianity and a concomitant rapid increase in ‘non-religion’, the actual situation is in considerable flux. A crucial dynamic is the combination of an indigenous Māori cultural renaissance and state attempts to recognise the moral imperative of decolonisation which have resulted in new languages of spirituality shaping both law and politics. Diverse religious groups have also occupied prominent spaces in shaping public concern and setting new agendas for national life. This paper traces the emerging contours of this dynamic religious context and the contributions of religion and spirituality in shaping political leadership in Aotearoa New Zealand.'

[mistaTea]

Fear of 'uncertainty'? No, it is a fear of certainty. If Maori + Crown governing all other New Zealanders under a co-governance 'partnership' arrangement became the certainty, the reality of how this country was governed, then New Zealand as a representative democracy would be finished. You might think ending our democracy is an idea that has merit, but most will not.

I believe in a strong liberal democracy. Not sure how any of my posts could have given a different impression.

Though co-governance was not communicated well (which caused fear as people like myself filled in the blanks with what we believed it must mean) and was doomed to fail…I think the scope you describe is much wider than anything that actually was proposed at the time.

As ex Nat MP Chris Finlayson has pointed out, it was more of a co-management arrangement of natural resources.

By including the word ‘governance’ (and then not clarifying what it meant) a lot of people were immediately fear full.

Myself included.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The Left will be dismayed by the words of Rahui Papa of Tainui at Ratana.

------

'Rahui Papa of Tainui said he was buoyed Luxon had previously said he wanted to govern for all New Zealanders. He moved on to comment on sceptism about some of the policies, especially in the health space such as the scrapping of the Māori health authority which had caused some consternation among Māori.

“We care not what you want to call government agencies,” Papa added, also saying Māori didn’t care about changing Māori (worded) signs, the priority was unity in Māoridom and self-determination.'

[Entrep]

wtf is "self-determination"?

[Entrep]

As ex Nat MP Chris Finlayson has pointed out, it was more of a co-management arrangement of natural resources.

By including the word ‘governance’ (and then not clarifying what it meant) a lot of people were immediately fear full.

What's the difference? The Govt is in-charge (or so I thought) and chooses who manages what and controls them. Co-management is co-governance.

JFC this is like banging my head against the wall. Everyone speaks in riddles and rhymes, tripping over their own words at every turn.

Literally nothing has a clear meaning.

The only thing clear is that they reject democracy, they reject that everyone in NZ is equal with equal access, and they reject the Government elected by the people of New Zealand.

[Logen Ninefingers]

wtf is "self-determination"?

I think it probably means 'a state within a state', because non-Maori are hardly going to vacate these islands.


The right of a people to self-determination[1] is a cardinal principle in modern international law, binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter's norms.[2][3] It states that peoples, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.[4]

[fungus pudding]

wtf is "self-determination"?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/self-determination

Looks like there's no such thing - pure theory.

[mistaTea]

What's the difference? The Govt is in-charge (or so I thought) and chooses who manages what and controls them. Co-management is co-governance.

JFC this is like banging my head against the wall. Everyone speaks in riddles and rhymes, tripping over their own words at every turn.

Literally nothing has a clear meaning.

The only thing clear is that they reject democracy, they reject that everyone in NZ is equal with equal access, and they reject the Government elected by the people of New Zealand.

I think Finlayson was just pointing out that the proposal amounts to a co-management of natural resources.

A co-management arrangement that sits under a single NZ Government.

Wheras, when people heard the word 'governance' in the title - skepticism and fear quickly followed that they were trying to set up some other kind of Government for Maori etc.

[Entrep]

I think Finlayson was just pointing out that the proposal amounts to a co-management of natural resources.

A co-management arrangement that sits under a single NZ Government.

Wheras, when people heard the word 'governance' in the title - skepticism and fear quickly followed that they were trying to set up some other kind of Government for Maori etc.

Say there is a lake and 10 people are appointed to oversee it.

Either those 10 people are appointed by the Minster of Fisheries (or whoever) who is appointed by the Govt. These 10 people can be people of ANY RACE and are effectively controlled by the Govt to implement Govt policies and run the lake in a way the Govt wants. Fine (DEMOCRACY).

Or those people are made up of 5 people appointed by the Minster of Fisheries (or whoever) who is appointed by the Govt. And then another 5 appointed by the local Iwi who the Govt has no say or control over. <-------- THIS IS CO-MANAGEMENT / GOVERNANCE / WHATEVER STUPID NAME YOU WANNA GIVE IT.

Now go beyond managing a lake to managing a city, welfare systems, budget, country, etc, etc.

All these different words are complete and utter nonsense and all the mean the same thing: A REJECTION OF DEMOCRACY AND EQUALITY OF NEW ZEALAND CITIZENS.

I'm just gonna keep banging my head against the wall. Caps are not directed at you MT, just general frustration.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Say there is a lake and 10 people are appointed to oversee it.

Either those 10 people are appointed by the Minster of Fisheries (or whoever) who is appointed by the Govt. These 10 people can be people of ANY RACE. Fine.

Or those people are made up of 5 people appointed by the Minster of Fisheries (or whoever) who is appointed by the Govt. And then another 5 appointed by the local Iwi who the Govt has no say or control over. <-------- THIS IS CO-MANAGEMENT / GOVERNANCE / WHATEVER STUPID NAME YOU WANNA GIVE IT.

Now go beyond managing a lake to managing a city, welfare systems, budget, country, etc, etc.

All these different words are complete and utter nonsense and all the mean the same thing: A REJECTION OF DEMOCRACY AND EQUALITY OF NEW ZEALAND CITIZENS.

I'm just gonna keep banging my head against the wall. Caps are not directed at you MT, just general frustration.

I hate to break it to you, but vis a vis your example of a lake, Iwi now own Lake Taupo and the government pays them $1 million per year so that the people of New Zealand can have access. They can - and do - veto use of the lake.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/waikato-news/news/gold-clam-threat-sees-lake-taupo-boat-events-banned/QAMOSZ7XFZE2ZGEUMHVXWMAKNA/

[Entrep]

I hate to break it to you, but vis a vis your example of a lake, Iwi now own Lake Taupo and the government pays them $1 million per year so that the people of New Zealand can have access. They can - and do - veto use of the lake.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/waikato-news/news/gold-clam-threat-sees-lake-taupo-boat-events-banned/QAMOSZ7XFZE2ZGEUMHVXWMAKNA/

I had a quick read of the deed and needing permission to use it appears to only apply in respect of commercial activities https://tuwharetoa.co.nz/app/uploads/TMTB-2007-Deed.pdf and https://www.tuwharetoa.co.nz/app/uploads/2021/07/Scanned_Declaratory-Judgment.pdf

[mistaTea]

Say there is a lake and 10 people are appointed to oversee it.

Either those 10 people are appointed by the Minster of Fisheries (or whoever) who is appointed by the Govt. These 10 people can be people of ANY RACE and are effectively controlled by the Govt to implement Govt policies and run the lake in a way the Govt wants. Fine (DEMOCRACY).

Or those people are made up of 5 people appointed by the Minster of Fisheries (or whoever) who is appointed by the Govt. And then another 5 appointed by the local Iwi who the Govt has no say or control over. <-------- THIS IS CO-MANAGEMENT / GOVERNANCE / WHATEVER STUPID NAME YOU WANNA GIVE IT.

Now go beyond managing a lake to managing a city, welfare systems, budget, country, etc, etc.

All these different words are complete and utter nonsense and all the mean the same thing: A REJECTION OF DEMOCRACY AND EQUALITY OF NEW ZEALAND CITIZENS.

I'm just gonna keep banging my head against the wall. Caps are not directed at you MT, just general frustration.

No offense is being taken, and I do understand what you are saying.

And ultimately all of this ties back to TOW (which is now on the other thread).

If this thread is anything to go by I think we are in for a robust conversation that is perhaps long overdue. And I am looking forward to considering both sides of the coin.

Ultimately, if you do not believe that TOW was pitched as a partnership with Iwi then anything they try to do that is not 100% democratic will be anathema. I do understand that point of view, because I have had a lot to say in the past from that angle. Far too much to say in my case, as I am ignorant about TOW and much of NZ History.

If, on the other hand, you are accepting of the notion that TOW was pitched as a partnership (and written that way in the te reo version) then co-management/governance (or whatever fancy marketing name you want to give it) is not only perfectly reasonable... it is something The Crown has a duty to honour by coming up with novel ways to affirm Maori tikanga and ensure that local Iwi get an equal say in key areas that impact them (such as the management of natural resources). All within the framework of what is often referred to as a liberal democracy.

At no point am I saying that you or anyone else is 'wrong' in your views. In fact, I think you all raise very strong points.

I am just trying to make sure I understand the history of the issues from more than a conservative white perspective so that any final conclusions I am able to draw (if any) are as well reasoned as I can make them.

Because I know that I am very biased, and in fact prejudiced.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I had a quick read of the deed and needing permission to use it appears to only apply in respect of commercial activities https://tuwharetoa.co.nz/app/uploads/TMTB-2007-Deed.pdf and https://www.tuwharetoa.co.nz/app/uploads/2021/07/Scanned_Declaratory-Judgment.pdf

So that's all good then? Cool.

[Entrep]

So that's all good then? Cool.

I don't know. But it's far besides the point I was trying to make. I need more than 5 minutes to form an opinion on that.

[davflaws]

No offense is being taken, and I do understand what you are saying.

And ultimately all of this ties back to TOW (which is now on the other thread).

If this thread is anything to go by I think we are in for a robust conversation that is perhaps long overdue. And I am looking forward to considering both sides of the coin.

Ultimately, if you do not believe that TOW was pitched as a partnership with Iwi then anything they try to do that is not 100% democratic will be anathema. I do understand that point of view, because I have had a lot to say in the past from that angle. Far too much to say in my case, as I am ignorant about TOW and much of NZ History.

If, on the other hand, you are accepting of the notion that TOW was pitched as a partnership (and written that way in the te reo version) then co-management/governance (or whatever fancy marketing name you want to give it) is not only perfectly reasonable... it is something The Crown has a duty to honour by coming up with novel ways to affirm Maori tikanga and ensure that local Iwi get an equal say in key areas that impact them (such as the management of natural resources). All within the framework of what is often referred to as a liberal democracy.

At no point am I saying that you or anyone else is 'wrong' in your views. In fact, I think you all raise very strong points.

I am just trying to make sure I understand the history of the issues from more than a conservative white perspective so that any final conclusions I am able to draw (if any) are as well reasoned as I can make them.

Because I know that I am very biased, and in fact prejudiced.

We all have our prejudices. I really admire the way you are examining yours and the spirit in which you are sharing your thinking.

[dobby41]

And my understanding is that this is what led to the NZ Wars. Some tribes had a very different understanding to what the 3 key articles meant.


The NZ Wars were land wars - Pakeha wanted more than the Maori were willing to give so Pakeha trumped up an excuse to fight and then, after they won, they confiscated even more land.
The NZ Company had a lot of input into this.
A sad period in NZ history.

[dobby41]

17% against the rest of NZ - so be it.

When Te Tiriti was signed there were 80000 Maori and less than 2000 Pakeha.
Now you'd like to change that contract (or the meaning of it) based on Maori only having 17% of the say?
Interesting concept of fairness.

[ithaka]

Good post from another forum

"In Western nations today there is less racism and more egalitarianism than there has ever been, yet the racial oppression narrative seeks to undermine societal harmony and cause acrimonious groups within society to feel hatred, shame and demoralisation regarding their own country.
NZ is one of several Western nations being accosted by identity politics trouncing merit.
This is Marxism 101, understood by many, yet who are almost powerless to prevent the ultimate destruction of the most successful civilisation to have graced the planet.
Why? Because the destruction emanates from within.


New Zealand's current path, even including many of its proposed solutions, has no chance of making things any better, let alone resolving the problem.
Until all New Zealanders are all equal under all laws, the societal destruction will continue."

[mistaTea]

When Te Tiriti was signed there were 80000 Maori and less than 2000 Pakeha.


I do find that to be useful context. I was under the impression it was more like 100K Maori to 2K European/Pakeha at the time of the signing.

Let's shift this to the other forum?

It does bring into question the notion that all 530 odd tribes would have signed the contract if it was made clear that The Queen would be taking full chieftainship/ tino rangatiratanga of their lands.

Maori made up ~98% of the population back then. Yet we believe that virtually all of the tribes handed over all of their power so readily? I don't know the answer, but want to learn more about it that is for sure.

It is a different perspective that starts to make me question just how much I really do know on the topic. Very little, in fact.

[davflaws]

New Zealand's current path, even including many of its proposed solutions, has no chance of making things any better, let alone resolving the problem.
Until all New Zealanders are all equal under all laws, the societal destruction will continue."

Many people believe that Rogernomics and Ruthenasia between them did more damage to New Zealand Society than anything else that has happened in the last sixty years

[Balance]

Many people believe that Rogernomics and Ruthenasia between them did more damage to New Zealand Society than anything else that has happened in the last sixty years

Absolute leftist woke garbage.

NZ would be bankrupt today and in terminal decline but for Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson.

6 years of Ardern & co have however indeed done more damage to NZ than at any time on the history of NZ. Useless and clueless misfits.

[mistaTea]

Until all New Zealanders are all equal under all laws, the societal destruction will continue."

Yes indeed. It is shameful to have such a large percentage of the population continue to lag the rest of the country in so many areas.

And it a common observation of the Colonised.

And although I also want a true meritocracy, I do acknowledge that there a lot of things we need to do between now and that Glorious Day to get there.

All that needs to be figured out is what those things are (to help Maori and also the non-Maori underclass) and how to implement them in a way that is enduring and won't provoke the wroth of the rest of the nation.

Whatever you do, you must take the nation along with you. It does not work long term when things (whether from left wing or right wing political idealogies) are just rammed through.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The NZ Wars were land wars - Pakeha wanted more than the Maori were willing to give so Pakeha trumped up an excuse to fight and then, after they won, they confiscated even more land.
The NZ Company had a lot of input into this.
A sad period in NZ history.

A sad period aye.

And what would you call the below period?

‘In 1822 Ngāti Toa and related tribes were being forced out of their land around Kāwhia after years of fighting with various Waikato tribes often led by Te Wherowhero. Led by Te Rauparaha they began a fighting retreat or migration southwards (this migration was called Te-Heke-Tahu-Tahu-ahi), conquering hapū and iwi as they went south. This campaign ended with Ngāti Toa controlling the southern part of the North Island and particularly the strategically placed Kapiti Island, which became the tribal stronghold for a period.[5]

In 1824 an estimated 2,000 to 3,000 warriors, making up a coalition of tribes from the East Coast, Whanganui, the Horowhenua, southern Taranaki[6] and Te Wai Pounamu (the South Island), assembled at Waikanae, with the object of taking Kapiti Island. Crossing in a flotilla of war canoes under cover of darkness, they were met as they disembarked by a force of Ngāti Toa fighters led or reinforced by Te Rauparaha. The ensuing Battle of Waiorua, at the northern end of the island, ended with the rout and slaughter of the landing attackers who were disadvantaged by difficult terrain and weather plus divided leadership.[7] This decisive victory left Te Rauparaha and the Ngāti Toa able to dominate Kapiti and the adjacent mainland.[7]’

[Logen Ninefingers]

There are no easy places to go intellectually for the Leftists when you ask them why conquest, slavery, and cannibalism by Maori is perfectly acceptable - but conquest and slavery by Europeans is extremely wrong.

Because the Leftists consider Maori to be savages who couldn’t be expected to know better?

Then that would make Europeans ‘civilised’ people who should have known better(?)

Anyway….

Dobby41 says that the New Zealand wars are really ‘Land Wars’ and were all about ‘stealing land’ (Maori know all about ‘stealing land’ - it was the main occupation of conquerors like Te Rauparaha).

So lets consider the Waikato Invasion:

‘Plans for the invasion were drawn up at the close of the First Taranaki War in 1861 but the Colonial Office and New Zealand General Assembly opposed action, and the incoming Governor Sir George Grey (second term 1861–1868) suspended execution in December of that year. Grey reactivated the invasion plans in June 1863 amid mounting tension between Kingites and the colonial government and fears of a violent raid on Auckland by Kingite Māori. Grey used as the trigger for the invasion Kingite rejection of his ultimatum on 9 July 1863 that all Māori living between Auckland and the Waikato take an oath of allegiance to Queen Victoria or be expelled south of the Waikato River.[2]’

‘The largest tribe in New Zealand Ngāpuhi, (estimated by demographer Ian Pool to have 40% of all Maori people in 1840) held a meeting under their chief Tāmati Wāka Nene, in the Hokianga in 1863 to back the government in the war against the Waikato "rebels".[3] Waka Nene, who was a close supporter of governor Grey, offered the services of Ngāpuhi warriors, which Grey declined.’

[Logen Ninefingers]

‘It was only after many failed attempts that, in 1807, the slave trade in the British Empire was abolished. However, slaves in the colonies (excluding areas ruled by the East India Company) were not freed until 1838 – and only after slave-owners, rather than the slaves themselves, received compensation.’

———

‘As in many other cultures, slavery was a key element of Māori society. Mōkai (servants or slaves) were usually spoils of war, condemned to lives of drudgery, danger, heavy physical work and obedience to their masters or mistresses' whims; they were expected to fight under supervision, could be used to negotiate with enemies, or used as food if supplies were short. Female slaves might be prostitutes, or become secondary wives to their conquerors. Marriages between victorious chiefs and highborn women of defeated tribes strengthened the invaders' right to the land.
The Treaty of Waitangi of 1840 outlawed the taking of slaves, and made all Māori British citizens, but did not affect pre-Treaty arrangements. Christianity preached the equality of all before God and some slaves were freed as a result. In other cases masters and slaves were baptised together, but existing relationships prevailed. One of Rev. Ironside's best local preachers was Paramena, a slave who experienced some prejudice in his leadership role.
Some chiefs had many slaves, and mōkai
appear frequently in colonial records: accompanying masters, carrying goods or gifts, doing menial tasks and obeying orders. Chiefs hired slaves to European explorers and surveyors: Kehu and Pikiwati, Ngāti Tūmatakōkiri slaves of Ngāti Rarua chiefs, guided Brunner on his West Coast expedition (1846-1848). Tau, Ngāi Tahu slave of a Te Ātiawa chief, had accompanied Brunner, Heaphy and Kehu on their earlier 1846 journey. They all returned to their masters.2

Slaves were sometimes restored to their people: Paremata Te Wahapiro of Ngāti Tama, captured by Ngāi Tahu at Tuturau in 1837, was delivered back to Wakapuaka with a new wife, daughter of his captor, Taiaroa;3 Ngāti Toa returned Ngāi Tahu chiefs to Kaikoura or Banks Peninsula in about 1840;4 and a party of Ngāi Tahu made their way from Motueka to Lyttelton in two large boats in 1851.5 A few slaves escaped to become fugitives.

Some chiefs formed strong bonds with mōkai. Paremata wanted to support his mōkai, arrested in 1843, until deterred by Europeans;6 Panakenake and Poria, Kehu's chiefs, gave him a life-time interest in land at Motueka,7 and Ngarewa, Te Ātiawa chief at Port Gore, insisted Government agents allocate land for his Ngōti Apa slaves.8 Bishop Selwyn was amazed when one of his staff tried to purchase the release of his mother and brother from a chief at Croisilles. The mother refused to leave - "she loved her master" and would "not go out free".9

While there are accounts of very brutal treatment of slaves in pre-colonial times, the lack of criticism after 1840 suggests that officials, clergy and settlers were not offended by what they saw. Rangatira continued to own slaves well into the 1850s and perhaps later. Europeans supported the system by acknowledging the existence of slavery, and hiring slaves from chiefs; Sarah Ironside (wife of Samuel Ironside), home alone after the Wairau Affray, in order to retain the services of her domestic help, gave a "pair each of our largest and best blankets" to their chiefs who were leaving for the North Island.11

In general, slaves were keen converts to Christianity, no doubt attracted by its benefits to them and, as their masters' control decreased, often worked for Europeans who paid them for tasks they formerly did for nothing.12

The passage of time eventually led to the extinction of slavery.‘

[Joshuatree]

A sad period aye.

And what would you call the below period?

‘In 1822 Ngāti Toa and related tribes were being forced out of their land around Kāwhia after years of fighting with various Waikato tribes often led by Te Wherowhero. Led by Te Rauparaha they began a fighting retreat or migration southwards (this migration was called Te-Heke-Tahu-Tahu-ahi), conquering hapū and iwi as they went south. This campaign ended with Ngāti Toa controlling the southern part of the North Island and particularly the strategically placed Kapiti Island, which became the tribal stronghold for a period.[5]

In 1824 an estimated 2,000 to 3,000 warriors, making up a coalition of tribes from the East Coast, Whanganui, the Horowhenua, southern Taranaki[6] and Te Wai Pounamu (the South Island), assembled at Waikanae, with the object of taking Kapiti Island. Crossing in a flotilla of war canoes under cover of darkness, they were met as they disembarked by a force of Ngāti Toa fighters led or reinforced by Te Rauparaha. The ensuing Battle of Waiorua, at the northern end of the island, ended with the rout and slaughter of the landing attackers who were disadvantaged by difficult terrain and weather plus divided leadership.[7] This decisive victory left Te Rauparaha and the Ngāti Toa able to dominate Kapiti and the adjacent mainland.[7]’
https://feed.podbean.com/terauparahakeiwareware/feed.xml
Great podcasts here for all to experience.

[Bjauck]

I'd argue it should be the number one topic on any forum, platform or website in New Zealand.

As what the left are arguing for is essentially the dissolution of New Zealand, and the rights and privileges that ALL New Zealanders currently enjoy, as we know it.

No sh*t we need a referendum on it. Many of our “rights and privileges” AND obligations evolved over time through legislative changes without referenda, which parliament can chose to ignore anyway. Universal suffrage was introduced without a referendum. NZ’s increasing independence from the UK occurred without referenda. What constitutes NZ is not ordained in an entrenched written document. We are not the United States. It evolves.

[mistaTea]

Many of our “rights and privileges” AND obligations evolved over time through legislative changes without referenda, which parliament can chose to ignore anyway. Universal suffrage was introduced without a referendum. NZ’s increasing independence from the UK occurred without referenda. What constitutes NZ is not ordained in an entrenched written document. We are not the United States. It evolves.

Yes and I don’t think the 50% + 1 vote majority we do is particularly democratic anyway. But that’s another matter.

It would be offensive to hold a referendum on a subject that disproportionately impacts Maori given their voice will be drowned out completely by the 80% + non-Maori.

Most of who are ignorant about TOW. Myself included.

Personally I think we are a long way away from a referendum. I do think it is time to have it thrashed out and debated in Parliament again though - a check point to consider where we are and where we need to go.

So in that respect I am very supportive of the deal the NATS and NZF did with ACT.

Beyond the first reading… I just can’t form an opinion yet.

[Bjauck]

Labour/ Greens have whipped up some sectors into a frenzy. So a via media does somehow need to be found. Perhaps after the initial frenzy at a change of government has abated a little.

[Balance]

Perspective from the right on what the Maori elites (fat cats) are really up to :

https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2024/01/jc-blame-train-is-off-tracks.html

It is obvious the Maori activists are going all out to cause mayhem and try to unseat this government. The recent hui at Ngaruawahia was proof of that. Was there anything discussed about working with the government on issues to improve their people’s lives? Unless the media chose not to report it, the answer is no. It appears that is because they regard the government as a bunch of ‘white supremacists’, while the King says Maori are all elites. Honestly, if he wants to drive Maori to a better place, he needs to change gears.

Their strategy of deliberately trying to undermine the government rather than engage won’t work – it will have the opposite effect, as the Democrats are finding out with Trump. So it will be with the government, as is evidenced by the latest Curia poll. How the coalition, particularly the National Party, handles it will be interesting, even revealing.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1705784185736-YZBC7R8AE9BT094HY25J/CLOAK+OF+KUDOS.jpg?format=500w

[Blue Skies]

Something which I have yet to hear mentioned but is incredibly significant is that for the first time in our history, we have a group of Maori who are now in their mid thirties, who have been right through the Kaupapa Maori Education pathway system, which reflect Maori principals, values and a Maori world view.

Kōhunga reo & puna reo ( early learning or pre-school),
kura kaupapa ( Primary )
wharekura. (Secondary)
Wānaga. (Tertiary)

- where teaching is often in Te Reo & based on Maori values with an aim of revitalising Maori language, knowledge & culture.

I think the first kōhunga reo was about 1985 & formally established under the 1989 Education Act, so those students who have been right through the system are now around their mid-thirties, 6 or 7 years ago in 2017 when Labour & NZF came to power they were late 20's. So around 2022 many were in their early thirties & moving up in their careers & into more senior roles.

Ask any person in a senior role in say the Public Service & they will tell you they are bright, aspirational, self assured, assertive & confident, & influential.

Just thought i'ld put this out there as I thinks it's important to realise there are a lot of factors at play, things are not always as simple as some like to believe.
For some who don't like what they are seeing, they heap all their anger on Labour, Ardern, Hipkins etc.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Something which I have yet to hear mentioned but is incredibly significant is that for the first time in our history, we have a group of Maori who are now in their mid thirties, who have been right through the Kaupapa Maori Education pathway system, which reflect Maori principals, values and a Maori world view.

Kōhunga reo & puna reo ( early learning or pre-school),
kura kaupapa ( Primary )
wharekura. (Secondary)
Wānaga. (Tertiary)

- where teaching is often in Te Reo & based on Maori values with an aim of revitalising Maori language, knowledge & culture.

I think the first kōhunga reo was about 1985 & formally established under the 1989 Education Act, so those students who have been right through the system are now around their mid-thirties, 6 or 7 years ago in 2017 when Labour & NZF came to power they were late 20's. So around 2022 many were in their early thirties & moving up in their careers & into more senior roles.

Ask any person in a senior role in say the Public Service & they will tell you they are bright, aspirational, self assured, assertive & confident, & influential.

Just thought i'ld put this out there as I thinks it's important to realise there are a lot of factors at play, things are not always as simple as some like to believe.
For some who don't like what they are seeing, they heap all their anger on Labour, Ardern, Hipkins etc.

Wow, that sounds great. That's fantastic. Truly.

And yet we hear from Maori that they think the government is trying to wipe them out and destroy them, and it's all based on some names of government departments & an attempt to clarify who is to going to govern New Zealand. Actually, it's the Maori from Te Pati Maori and the Greens that are saying it, along with Leftist flunkies that will oppose anything the Coalition does in the most knee-jerk manner possible. The hysteria gets further whipped up by the media, and then before you know it the Centre Right is being portrayed as a pack of racist monsters.

The carry on we are seeing would be commensurate with the Coalition saying "we are going to rip the Treaty into 48 pieces and expunge in from this nations history. Te Reo shall be outlawed, our version of NZ history will be taught in class rooms, and we are taking back Lake Taupo, Lake Rotorua, and the Waikato River."

Here is what an actual Maori leader - not from Te Pati Maori / Greens / Labour - had to say at Ratana:

“We care not what you want to call government agencies,” Rahui Papa of Tainui said, also saying Māori didn’t care about changing Māori signs, the priority was unity in Māoridom and self-determination.

[Blue Skies]

Disbelief NZF Associate Minister of Health looking at putting a 3 year freeze on tobacco tax when outside the cancelled Smokefree legislation, the increasing cost of cigarettes is biggest deterrent to people starting smoking, & continues to cause large numbers of smokers to quit.

Incredible & not only that but denying to RNZ she had looked at this until caught out by a leak showing she had signed off on a decision paper asking advice about exactly this.
Big trust issues for Casey Costello.

How bad is it, when you have the Associate Minister of Health actually putting the profits of the Tobacco industry which kills 5,000 people a year, 13 every day from smoking, above the health of NZ'ers.

Beyond comprehension a Minister could be so stupid, ignore all the empirical evidence, in 2024!

Or, is it a ruthlessness, they don't want more smokers to quit because they need the money from the tobacco excise tax to pay for tax cuts & election promises?

[blackcap]

Disbelief NZF Associate Minister of Health looking at putting a 3 year freeze on tobacco tax when outside the cancelled Smokefree legislation, the increasing cost of cigarettes is biggest deterrent to people starting smoking, & continues to cause large numbers of smokers to quit.

Incredible & not only that but denying to RNZ she had looked at this until caught out by a leak showing she had signed off on a decision paper asking advice about exactly this.
Big trust issues for Casey Costello.

How bad is it, when you have the Associate Minister of Health actually putting the profits of the Tobacco industry which kills 5,000 people a year, 13 every day from smoking, above the health of NZ'ers.

Beyond comprehension a Minister could be so stupid, ignore all the empirical evidence, in 2024!

Or, is it a ruthlessness, they don't want more smokers to quit because they need the money from the tobacco excise tax to pay for tax cuts & election promises?

O stop being so sanctimonious. Do you know how much a packet of cigarettes costs these days? Its the poor that are disadvantaged the most and this causes poverty. For some people a cigarette is their only crutch. I am not saying we should encourage smoking, but the price and excise is ridiculous. People should be free to make up their own minds without governement interference.
I don't see any tax on sugar which kills far more people (diabetes and complications, heart disease etc) than smoking does these days. Stop being so self righteous.

[Bjauck]

O stop being so sanctimonious. Do you know how much a packet of cigarettes costs these days? Its the poor that are disadvantaged the most and this causes poverty. For some people a cigarette is their only crutch. I am not saying we should encourage smoking, but the price and excise is ridiculous. People should be free to make up their own minds without governement interference.
I don't see any tax on sugar which kills far more people (diabetes and complications, heart disease etc) than smoking does these days. Stop being so self righteous. BAT. Big Tobacco. We see why the Coalition have scrapped Smokefree NZ now.

Give the poor a little bit of joy if they want a fag. They can’t afford a house these days. Gangs and crime are getting worse in poorer areas. The rich have the untaxed capital gains, let the poor have cheaper excise on a full tar unfiltered fag. Income earners will be hit with yet another tax hike to pay for the health costs and lack of a CGT. Dying early would be a blessing because it is easier than tacking the causes of poverty?

Nanny state should butt out. We are all free to read medical journals, understand them and make up our own minds.

[blackcap]

BAT. Big Tobacco. We see why the Coalition have scrapped Smokefree NZ now.

Give the poor a little bit of joy if they want a fag. They can’t afford a house these days. Gangs and crime are getting worse in poorer areas. The rich have the untaxed capital gains, let the poor have cheaper excise on a full tar unfiltered fag. Income earners will be hit with yet another tax hike to pay for the health costs and lack of a CGT. Dying early would be a blessing because it is easier than tacking the causes of poverty?

Nanny state should butt out. We are all free to read medical journals, understand them and make up our own minds.

That is not what I am saying. But for many the cost is prohibitive and really does cut into the budget at the expense of other items including looking after kids.

Why this big focus on tobacco, when there are other things that should really be tackled.

By the way, its not only a poor issue, smoking goes through all demographics, its the poor that do smoke that really feel it.

I don't buy the health costs argument associated with smoking, drinking possible costs a hell of a lot more.

[Ggcc]

BAT. Big Tobacco. We see why the Coalition have scrapped Smokefree NZ now.

Give the poor a little bit of joy if they want a fag. They can’t afford a house these days. Gangs and crime are getting worse in poorer areas. The rich have the untaxed capital gains, let the poor have cheaper excise on a full tar unfiltered fag. Income earners will be hit with yet another tax hike to pay for the health costs and lack of a CGT. Dying early would be a blessing because it is easier than tacking the causes of poverty?

Nanny state should butt out. We are all free to read medical journals, understand them and make up our own minds.

Interesting fact the majority of people who worked at BAT in Napier were not smokers. I used to support ASH and their way of thinking, until I saw how they got things so wrong in describing what BAT put into their cigarettes.

[Blue Skies]

O stop being so sanctimonious. Do you know how much a packet of cigarettes costs these days? Its the poor that are disadvantaged the most and this causes poverty. For some people a cigarette is their only crutch. I am not saying we should encourage smoking, but the price and excise is ridiculous. People should be free to make up their own minds without governement interference.
I don't see any tax on sugar which kills far more people (diabetes and complications, heart disease etc) than smoking does these days. Stop being so self righteous.




If sugar killed half of all its users, like tobacco does, we would have almost half the population dying each & every year!
There are currently about 350,000 people still smoking, if they don't quit - smoking will kill half of them & its entirely preventable.
Sugar does not kill anything like the same percentage of users as tobacco, where on earth did you get that idea from?

Sanctimonious! What do you think a HEALTH Minister's job is ? Being paid $350,000 a year plus perks, to sit in their Beehive office with dozens of support staff, & eat lunch & go home?


If you're a taxpayer, a very significant portion of the tax you pay, goes into funding our Health system.

The old argument people should be responsible for & free to make up their own minds about sabotaging their own health doesn't wash when they won't take responsibility for the resulting $2 billion per year other taxpayers will be paying for their healthcare under our free publicly funded Healthcare System. (and thats' not taking into account other costs like dying early, lost work productivity, economic impact on family )

You can't have a free taxpayer funded Healthcare System without some guard rails around trying to reduce people sabotaging their health, or reckless or irresponsible behaviour.

That aside, putting the cost of cigarettes right out of reach is a proven way of successfully motivating smokers to quit.

[mistaTea]

O stop being so sanctimonious. Do you know how much a packet of cigarettes costs these days? Its the poor that are disadvantaged the most and this causes poverty. For some people a cigarette is their only crutch. I am not saying we should encourage smoking, but the price and excise is ridiculous. People should be free to make up their own minds without governement interference.
I don't see any tax on sugar which kills far more people (diabetes and complications, heart disease etc) than smoking does these days. Stop being so self righteous.

Really interesting post BC.

A month or so back I purchased a pack of cigarettes. I have not been a 'smoker' for about 20 years I guess, but my dad still enjoys cigarettes, so on the rare occassion he makes the trek to Auckland I get a packet and enjoy a few cigarettes with him.

Anyway, a pack of 20 B&H cost me about $44. My jaw literally dropped, and the guy at the Dairy told me how lucky I was, because he was about to make the CPI adjustment the next day and they were going to go up another $2 or $3!

I think a lot of this gets back to making an effort to look at an issue from more than one angle (just like the talk around TOW). I just feel a lot of people leap to jumping up and down and decrying that the sky is falling before waiting to see what actually happens and after considering the issue from different perspectives. After all, the Associate Health Minister has only asked for some advice on the issue at this stage! So we can afford to take a more measured assessment.

If your sole focus is on health outcomes, then anything other than ever increasing punative measures against tobacco products is going to disappoint. And clearly tobacco smoke is unhealthy, increasing the chance of cancer and other ailments. That has been well researched, and the vast majoroty of adults who continue to purchase the product are well aware.

So that is one angle.

Some of the other things to consider are:



It has not been about recouping costs from smokers due to extra healthcare they need (on average) for a long time. The excise tax raised is around 4 to 5 times greater than even the most liberal accounting of 'costs'. That means the State is coercing adults away from buying a perfectly legal product. Which is the definition of Nanny State - and there is an argument that the State should not do this.
It continues to dispproportianately impact the poor. They form the highest percentage of smokers, and the cost of smokes is a large percentage of their take home pay. This comes at the expense of decent accomodation, clothing and even food for the kids. We (quite rightly) decry the levels of poverty in our country but then push these tobacco policies to the limit which actually works against our aim of reducing poverty.
From a non-smokers POV, you might ask why these people don't just quit. As it is literally crippling them financially. At first glance, a very reasonable question. However, consider this - a lot of familiies in NZ are doing it tougher than a lot of us really realise. These guys aren't planning date nights with their wife at a nice restaurant, upgrades to their car let along trips with the kids to Fiji. Fiji may as well be on the Moon. However, they can buy cigarettes. And they enjoy smoking tobacco as it is a small pleasure they can obtain that helps them get through living in difficult circumstances. It is a perspective we should consider much more before heaping on more costs on these families. Costs which add stress to already fragile families that are higher risk of domestic violence etc.
We are at diminishing returns with regards to excise tax anyway. The vast majority of people who were going to quit due to price sensitivity have already done so. The rest either continue to wear the cost or buy illicit tobacco. So the benefits of never ending tax increases are significantly reduced now relative to the costs of continuing down that path.
Gangs. Gangs are the only ones benefiting from the price increases now. There can be no doubt that the Tobacco tax policy has enriched gangs, providing another revenue stream for them. Enabling them to buy even fancier gear that helps glamourise their existence, making them an even more attractive prospect for our disadvantaged youth.


So, I do think there are many different angles one could coherently argue their case with regards to tobacco. It is not ridiculous in my view that the government would look to hit the pause button while getting advice on alternative approaches.

[Blue Skies]

You'll have difficulty arguing that increasing the cost of cigarettes has not been successful in significantly helping smokers quit, in all ethnic & socio-economic groups.
Maori down to 17% from 28.6% in 2019
Pacifica down to 6.4% from 20.2% in 2017.

Most smokers want to quit & the increasing cost of a packet of fags is incredibly commonly a trigger point to quit.


More importantly, the other often overlooked angle is we don't want teenagers to take up the habit like we all did in the 60's & 70's when cigarettes were so cheap.
At almost $50 a packet, & no glamorous advertising, no teenager is going to chose to start smoking tobacco & we will end up with a smoke free generation.

When looking at this issue, the extremely addictive nature of the product has to be taken into account. Big tobacco ruthlessly exploited this increasing the amount of nicotine whenever they could to get people hooked.

This highly addictive product kills half its long term users, & leaves almost all the rest with some pretty ghastly health problems, amputations, carcinomas of the tongue, strokes, etc.
There is no other legal product including alcohol & sugar, which is toxic/damaging in even the smallest amounts.
Alcohol in moderation can even have some benefits & our bodies need & can cope with small amounts of sugar.

[ithaka]

You'll have difficulty arguing that increasing the cost of cigarettes has not been successful in significantly helping smokers quit, in all ethnic & socio-economic groups.
Maori down to 17% from 28.6% in 2019
Pacifica down to 6.4% from 20.2% in 2017.

The drop of New Zealand’s overall smoking rate to 8% would place it among some of the world’s lowest prevalences. The most recent OECD average was 16.5%, Australia’s rate is 10.7%, and the UK’s is 13.8%. It’s likely, however, that a substantial portion of New Zealanders quitting smoking may be switching to vaping. According to the latest data, the rise in daily vape users was larger than the drop in daily smokers: 8.3% of adults are now vaping daily, up from 6.2% in the past year.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/17/new-zealand-smoking-rates-fall-to-lowest-on-record-but-vaping-on-the-rise

[mistaTea]

You'll have difficulty arguing that increasing the cost of cigarettes has not been successful in significantly helping smokers quit, in all ethnic & socio-economic groups.
Maori down to 17% from 28.6% in 2019
Pacifica down to 6.4% from 20.2% in 2017.

Most smokers want to quit & the increasing cost of a packet of fags is incredibly commonly a trigger point to quit.



Not arguing that increases to the excise tax has not had an impact on reducing smoking rates - it has.

Just pointing out that the tax increases correspond with large decreases in smoking rates initially, but over time the 'returns' diminish with each additional increase. However, there are other societal issues that result from the increases in excise tax (a number of which I mentioned in my earlier post).

We cannot pretend that those issues don't exist, or aren't that bad.

Good policy is created when it considers all of the aspects, not just a single focus on health.

That does not mean that we should not care about health and just drop all of the taxes etc to give relief to the poor and cut off gang revenue streams. Just because the current way we are doing things is generating some undersirable results does not mean that it automatically follows that we should fix it by going to the opposite extreme.

It does, however, mean that we need to be more thoughtful and regard these issues from different perspectives. We certainly do not want to lose sight of the forest for the trees and immediately start jumping up and down when a Minister has simply asked for some advice.

Also, people do enjoy smoking cigarettes. Some habitually, others socially. And it is a legal product. You claim that it kills half of its users, and I welcome you to supply the evidence for that. The 'big one' for smokers is lung cancer, and about 15% of lifetime smokers will develop lung cancer (https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-percentage-of-smokers-get-lung-cancer-2248868) for males and about 11% for females. That is very significant give the same rate of lung cancer for people who have never smoked is 1.8% male and 1.3% female.

However, far from saying that tobacco nails half of its users, you could also argue that 85% of the males and 89% of the females can enjoy the product over a lifetime and not get lung cancer.

You will point out that there are other risks associated with smoking such as stroke, heart disease etc. And that is fair enough, but I am just pointing out that lung cancer is by far and away the biggest risk to smokers... and the stats are at odds with your claim.

I also think your claims about sugar are not quite right. Obesity death rates have exceeded smoking death rates (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/feb/11/obesity-bigger-killer-than-smoking-in-england-and-scotland-study) in a lot of places (I doubt NZ is much different to the UK).

So your effort would be better placed I think jumping up and down about why we have not cranked up the excise tax on sugar. We should lift the price of a can of coke to $10 perhaps to help people get skinny.

If smoking cigarettes is as bad as you say - kills half, and leaves the other half with missing feet, tongues and strokes - then the government should quit pissing around and just ban it immediately for everytone from tomorrow.

[fungus pudding]

Not arguing that increases to the excise tax has not had an impact on reducing smoking rates - it has.

Just pointing out that the tax increases correspond with large decreases in smoking rates initially, but over time the 'returns' diminish with each additional increase. However, there are other societal issues that result from the increases in excise tax (a number of which I mentioned in my earlier post).

We cannot pretend that those issues don't exist, or aren't that bad.

Good policy is created when it considers all of the aspects, not just a single focus on health.

That does not mean that we should not care about health and just drop all of the taxes etc to give relief to the poor and cut off gang revenue streams. Just because the current way we are doing things is generating some undersirable results does not mean that it automatically follows that we should fix it by going to the opposite extreme.

It does, however, mean that we need to be more thoughtful and regard these issues from different perspectives. We certainly do not want to lose sight of the forest for the trees and immediately start jumping up and down when a Minister has simply asked for some advice.

Also, people do enjoy smoking cigarettes. Some habitually, others socially. And it is a legal product. You claim that it kills half of its users, and I welcome you to supply the evidence for that. The 'big one' for smokers is lung cancer, and about 15% of lifetime smokers will develop lung cancer (https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-percentage-of-smokers-get-lung-cancer-2248868) for males and about 11% for females. That is very significant give the same rate of lung cancer for people who have never smoked is 1.8% male and 1.3% female.

However, far from saying that tobacco nails half of its users, you could also argue that 85% of the males and 89% of the females can enjoy the product over a lifetime and not get lung cancer.

You will point out that there are other risks associated with smoking such as stroke, heart disease etc. And that is fair enough, but I am just pointing out that lung cancer is by far and away the biggest risk to smokers... and the stats are at odds with your claim.

I also think your claims about sugar are not quite right. Obesity death rates have exceeded smoking death rates (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/feb/11/obesity-bigger-killer-than-smoking-in-england-and-scotland-study) in a lot of places (I doubt NZ is much different to the UK).

So your effort would be better placed I think jumping up and down about why we have not cranked up the excise tax on sugar. We should lift the price of a can of coke to $10 perhaps to help people get skinny.

If smoking cigarettes is as bad as you say - kills half, and leaves the other half with missing feet, tongues and strokes - then the government should quit pissing around and just ban it immediately for everytone from tomorrow.

Yeah = bring back prohibtion at the same time! Double the fun in one fell swoop!

[Blue Skies]

Not arguing that increases to the excise tax has not had an impact on reducing smoking rates - it has.

Just pointing out that the tax increases correspond with large decreases in smoking rates initially, but over time the 'returns' diminish with each additional increase. However, there are other societal issues that result from the increases in excise tax (a number of which I mentioned in my earlier post).

We cannot pretend that those issues don't exist, or aren't that bad.

Good policy is created when it considers all of the aspects, not just a single focus on health.

That does not mean that we should not care about health and just drop all of the taxes etc to give relief to the poor and cut off gang revenue streams. Just because the current way we are doing things is generating some undersirable results does not mean that it automatically follows that we should fix it by going to the opposite extreme.

It does, however, mean that we need to be more thoughtful and regard these issues from different perspectives. We certainly do not want to lose sight of the forest for the trees and immediately start jumping up and down when a Minister has simply asked for some advice.

Also, people do enjoy smoking cigarettes. Some habitually, others socially. And it is a legal product. You claim that it kills half of its users, and I welcome you to supply the evidence for that. The 'big one' for smokers is lung cancer, and about 15% of lifetime smokers will develop lung cancer (https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-percentage-of-smokers-get-lung-cancer-2248868) for males and about 11% for females. That is very significant give the same rate of lung cancer for people who have never smoked is 1.8% male and 1.3% female.

However, far from saying that tobacco nails half of its users, you could also argue that 85% of the males and 89% of the females can enjoy the product over a lifetime and not get lung cancer.

You will point out that there are other risks associated with smoking such as stroke, heart disease etc. And that is fair enough, but I am just pointing out that lung cancer is by far and away the biggest risk to smokers... and the stats are at odds with your claim.

I also think your claims about sugar are not quite right. Obesity death rates have exceeded smoking death rates (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/feb/11/obesity-bigger-killer-than-smoking-in-england-and-scotland-study) in a lot of places (I doubt NZ is much different to the UK).

So your effort would be better placed I think jumping up and down about why we have not cranked up the excise tax on sugar. We should lift the price of a can of coke to $10 perhaps to help people get skinny.

If smoking cigarettes is as bad as you say - kills half, and leaves the other half with missing feet, tongues and strokes - then the government should quit pissing around and just ban it immediately for everytone from tomorrow.




Here is the Ministry of Health advice on tobacco harm.

Smoking kills half of all long term users from smoking related diseases such as lung cancer, stroke, heart attacks, other cancers etc, around 5,000 people each year, 13 people each day.
It damages nearly every organ & system in your body.
More than 60 of the chemicals in cigarette smoke cause cancer
Every cigarette you smoke robs your muscles brain & body of oxygen, increases your heart rate & blood pressure & narrows the blood vessels resulting in things like amputation of limbs.
It causes gum disease, oral cancers like carcinomas of the tongue which can result in the surgical removal of the tongue.
Smoking around children increases their risk of infections like pneumonia, bronchitis & croup.
It increases the risk of Cot Death in infants, middle ear infections in children & meningococcal disease.

Health should be the number 1 priority, when you lose your health you lose everything.

The simple reason death rates from obesity are now higher in the UK & Scotland than from smoking, is because of the ever increasing consumption of processed sugary fatty foods, while smoking rates in the population have decreased.
Yes sugar in excessive quantities is harmful but just about the entire population use sugar & it doesn't kill anything like the same percentage of users as tobacco.
If the entire population smoked, there would be far more deaths and illness than from sugar.
Sugar in small quantities is ok but every single cigarette smoked causes damage.

However, I would be all for a tax on sugar as we are heading for the collapse of our Health System under the strain of diabetes & obesity



https://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/healthy-living/addictions/health-effects-smoking

[Logen Ninefingers]

On track to be one of the greatest leaders this country has ever seen. He has earned the sobriquet ‘the Bravest of the Brave’ in my book.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d3qo-gQxTUI

[mistaTea]

On track to be one of the greatest leaders this country has ever seen. He has earned the sobriquet ‘the Bravest of the Brave’ in my book.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d3qo-gQxTUI

Very articulate description of what he is planning and why.

Of course, what underpins his view is his belief that TOW was not positioned as a partnership. And if his belief is proven out it becomes something that is known and his Bill is not only relevant, it is self-evident.

And so I look forward to the debate. As each participant is able to present their case with supporting evidence (I hope).

Until there is a widely accepted view that TOW was or was not a partnership between iwi and The Crown then the debate will be endless (and certainly outlive all of us posting here as davflaws has pointed out).

[Logen Ninefingers]

Very articulate description of what he is planning and why.

Of course, what underpins his view is his belief that TOW was not positioned as a partnership. And if his belief is proven out it becomes something that is known and his Bill is not only relevant, it is self-evident.

And so I look forward to the debate. As each participant is able to present their case with supporting evidence (I hope).

Until there is a widely accepted view that TOW was or was not a partnership between iwi and The Crown then the debate will be endless (and certainly outlive all of us posting here as davflaws has pointed out).

Well he is simply taking the Maori wording and acting accordingly. If you can find the words ‘partnership’ or ‘principles’ in either version of the Treaty then you will doing better then anyone else has ever done.

[Baa_Baa]

On track to be one of the greatest leaders this country has ever seen. He has earned the sobriquet ‘the Bravest of the Brave’ in my book.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d3qo-gQxTUI

The comments are interesting as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&amp;v=d3qo-gQxTUI

[mistaTea]

Well he is simply taking the Maori wording and acting accordingly. If you can find the words ‘partnership’ or ‘principles’ in either version of the Treaty then you will doing better then anyone else has ever done.

Yes, it is a fair point.

I just need to understand how the view of the courts/waitangi tribunal etc ended up with the view that TOW was positioned to Iwi as a partnership.

After 50+ years of scrutiny by the courts etc, this was the view that was determined.

I have no problem changing that (and David's Bill may be just the ticket for such a change) if it can be shown that the last 50+ years of jurisprudence simply got it wrong.

Because, if it is true that it was sold to Maori as a partnership, I don't think we get to wriggle out of it so easily.

[Blue Skies]

Shows how inept this coalition govt's foreign policy is, sending defence force personal to support the US & UK bombing of Houthis in Yemen, plus Luxon & Collins adamantly denying the Houthis attacks on shipping were not linked to their support of Palestinians in Gaza when this is patently false.

Now the US & UK can't send their ships through the Red Sea forcing them to add weeks & thousands of miles around South Africa & huge extra freight costs.
Meanwhile China, unaffected by the Houthis ban is redeploying its ships to the route via the Red Sea & Suez Canal taking full advantage of the new competitive advantage they got handed to them on a plate.

Rather than rein in Israel the US is now asking China to help them curb the Houthis attacks on US, UK & Israeli registered ships.
China's response is the Red Sea attacks are a result of the Gaza conflict which should be ended, i.e. - fix your own mess.

Ships in the Red Sea now trying to declare themselves Chinese to avoid Houthis attacks.

[Baa_Baa]

Shows how inept this coalition govt's foreign policy is, sending defence force personal to support the US & UK bombing of Houthis in Yemen, plus Luxon & Collins adamantly denying the Houthis attacks on shipping were not linked to their support of Palestinians in Gaza when this is patently false.

Now the US & UK can't send their ships through the Red Sea forcing them to add weeks & thousands of miles around South Africa & huge extra freight costs.
Meanwhile China, unaffected by the Houthis ban is redeploying its ships to the route via the Red Sea & Suez Canal taking full advantage of the new competitive advantage they got handed to them on a plate.

Rather than rein in Israel the US is now asking China to help them curb the Houthis attacks on US, UK & Israeli registered ships.
China's response is the Red Sea attacks are a result of the Gaza conflict which should be ended, i.e. - fix your own mess.

Ships in the Red Sea now trying to declare themselves Chinese to avoid Houthis attacks.

Dangerous ground you stray into, pick a side, which are you on? Maybe not our side, it seems.

[Valuegrowth]

I found very interesting article on Tobacco and the Environment.

https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#:~:text=There%20is%20evidence%20of%20s ubstantial%2C%20and%20largely%20irreversible%20los ses%20of%20trees.&text=An%20estimated%201.5%20billion%20hectares,of% 20annual%20greenhouse%20gas%20increases.&text=Due%20to%20the%20volatility%20of,limited%20li fespan%20for%20tobacco%20production.

"Currently, 5.3 million hectares of fertile land is used to grow tobacco.4 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref4)5 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref5) There is evidence of substantial, and largely irreversible losses of trees.2 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref2)3 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref3)5 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref5) An estimated 1.5 billion hectares of forests have been lost worldwide since the 1970s, contributing to up to 20% of annual greenhouse gas increases.3 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref3)22 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref22) Due to the volatility of tobacco crop this land has a limited lifespan for tobacco production"

Conclusion:

Irrespective of the issues with data disclosure from the tobacco industry, existing research demonstrates that the impacts of tobacco exist on a global scale.3 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref3)4 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref4) 5 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref5) Zafeiridou, Hopkinson & Voulvoulis, (2018) have provided strong evidence of the negative environmental impact which tobacco cause.4 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref4) 5 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref5) Collectively when combining the environmental cost with its proven detrimental health, social and economic impacts, this makes it incompatible with the global development agenda.4 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref4) 5 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref5) 31 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref31) Regardless of how efficient and regulated the tobacco industry becomes, just as there is no such thing as a risk free cigarette the tobacco industry will always pose environmental risks.3 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref3) 4 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref4) 5 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref5) Tobacco products aren’t just a threat to your health, they are deeply unethical products that threaten the environment and trap those most in need in cycles of inequality.3 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref3) 31 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref31) As we face ever more critical decisions about how to preserve our planet and sustain our future, this hugely damaging industry needs to face up to its inconvenient truths.

[blackcap]

I found very interesting article on Tobacco and the Environment.

https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#:~:text=There%20is%20evidence%20of%20s ubstantial%2C%20and%20largely%20irreversible%20los ses%20of%20trees.&text=An%20estimated%201.5%20billion%20hectares,of% 20annual%20greenhouse%20gas%20increases.&text=Due%20to%20the%20volatility%20of,limited%20li fespan%20for%20tobacco%20production.

"Currently, 5.3 million hectares of fertile land is used to grow tobacco.4 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref4)5 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref5) There is evidence of substantial, and largely irreversible losses of trees.2 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref2)3 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref3)5 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref5) An estimated 1.5 billion hectares of forests have been lost worldwide since the 1970s, contributing to up to 20% of annual greenhouse gas increases.3 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref3)22 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref22) Due to the volatility of tobacco crop this land has a limited lifespan for tobacco production"

Conclusion:

Irrespective of the issues with data disclosure from the tobacco industry, existing research demonstrates that the impacts of tobacco exist on a global scale.3 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref3)4 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref4) 5 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref5) Zafeiridou, Hopkinson & Voulvoulis, (2018) have provided strong evidence of the negative environmental impact which tobacco cause.4 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref4) 5 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref5) Collectively when combining the environmental cost with its proven detrimental health, social and economic impacts, this makes it incompatible with the global development agenda.4 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref4) 5 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref5) 31 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref31) Regardless of how efficient and regulated the tobacco industry becomes, just as there is no such thing as a risk free cigarette the tobacco industry will always pose environmental risks.3 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref3) 4 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref4) 5 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref5) Tobacco products aren’t just a threat to your health, they are deeply unethical products that threaten the environment and trap those most in need in cycles of inequality.3 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref3) 31 (https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/tobacco-and-the-environment#ref31) As we face ever more critical decisions about how to preserve our planet and sustain our future, this hugely damaging industry needs to face up to its inconvenient truths.


There are huge holes in the bit in green. They are trying to conflate tobacco growth with a 20% increase in greenhouse gas. That's just wrong. It is clever wording from ASH.

[Bjauck]

From Blackcap: That is not what I am saying. But for many the cost is prohibitive and really does cut into the budget at the expense of other items including looking after kids.
A lot of things going on there. The question should be reframed. Why are housing and groceries so expensive in NZ? How can access to education be improved for the lower socio-economic groups? Governments on both left and right in NZ avoid tackling the bigger issues.

Why this big focus on tobacco, when there are other things that should really be tackled. I agree other issues, drugs, health etc. should not be ignored.

By the way, its not only a poor issue, smoking goes through all demographics, its the poor that do smoke that really feel it.
Many studies have shown poorer health outcomes for poorer socio-economic groups as the result of smoking prevalence. Smoking could be responsible for 1/3 of the worse outcomes for lower socio-economic groups. Interesting: https://www.otago.ac.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0021/332094/could-mainstream-anti-smoking-programmes-increase-inequalities-in-tobacco-use-new-zealand-data-from-1981-1996-025021.pdf

I don't buy the health costs argument associated with smoking, drinking possible costs a hell of a lot more.Sure they both have a big health cost associated with them. I would favour a more limited access to alcohol too. Just because society does not tackle some other issues as seriously doesn’t mean tobacco should not be tackled either. That is politics for you.

[Balance]

Big job ahead for the new government in education after 6 years of attempts by Ardern, Hipkins and the woke leftists to skew the education system towards indoctrination to favour the left :

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1706211988134-09XZ0N9I9KBKYEA81N8P/University+today.+copy.jpg?format=500w

[dln]

Dangerous ground you stray into, pick a side, which are you on? Maybe not our side, it seems.

Maybe you should re-evaluate the values of your 'side'.

The facts are quite clear.

[dobby41]

A sad period aye.

And what would you call the below period?

‘In 1822 Ngāti Toa and related tribes were being forced out of their land around Kāwhia after years of fighting with various Waikato tribes often led by Te Wherowhero. Led by Te Rauparaha they began a fighting retreat or migration southwards (this migration was called Te-Heke-Tahu-Tahu-ahi), conquering hapū and iwi as they went south. This campaign ended with Ngāti Toa controlling the southern part of the North Island and particularly the strategically placed Kapiti Island, which became the tribal stronghold for a period.[5]

In 1824 an estimated 2,000 to 3,000 warriors, making up a coalition of tribes from the East Coast, Whanganui, the Horowhenua, southern Taranaki[6] and Te Wai Pounamu (the South Island), assembled at Waikanae, with the object of taking Kapiti Island. Crossing in a flotilla of war canoes under cover of darkness, they were met as they disembarked by a force of Ngāti Toa fighters led or reinforced by Te Rauparaha. The ensuing Battle of Waiorua, at the northern end of the island, ended with the rout and slaughter of the landing attackers who were disadvantaged by difficult terrain and weather plus divided leadership.[7] This decisive victory left Te Rauparaha and the Ngāti Toa able to dominate Kapiti and the adjacent mainland.[7]’

I don't need to call the period anything at all.
Same as the last public hanging in England was in 1868 - very civilised!
You can go back into the history of any country and find things we see as appalling today.
Don't forget that England only abbolished slavery in 1834 - very civilised!

Think about Parihaka in the context of Maori in 1822 - from the so-called civilised British.

[iceman]

I hope the Coalition Government reviews all its contributions to the useless United Nations and all it's agencies, that achieve absolutely nothing. Now proven their staff assisted Hamas in planning the October 7 attack on Israel. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68104203

[Balance]

I hope the Coalition Government reviews all its contributions to the useless United Nations and all it's agencies, that achieve absolutely nothing. Now proven their staff assisted Hamas in planning the October 7 attack on Israel. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68104203

Tip of the iceberg.

What happened to the billions of dollars in aid to Gaza which were diverted into terrorism activities like tunnels and rockets rather than schools, hospitals and businesses?

It is so very clear that the UN agencies closed more than one eye to what was really going on in Gaza.

[Getty]

United Nations.

Is that the outfit Helen Clark works with, and Comrade Ardern, oops, Gayford, wants to join?

Shame!!

[Logen Ninefingers]

David Seymour:

“We are at a turning point. We can put the right values back in government. But we shouldn't underestimate the massive challenge that lies ahead of us if we try to do so.

There are hundreds of noisy groups who don't want us to see the right values put into practice. The media will give them a platform every night at 6pm. And it's too easy for governments to back down in the face of negative headlines.

The forces for more government in your life haven't gone away. Standing up to them will take courage and initiative.”

[Logen Ninefingers]

I don't need to call the period anything at all.
Same as the last public hanging in England was in 1868 - very civilised!
You can go back into the history of any country and find things we see as appalling today.
Don't forget that England only abbolished slavery in 1834 - very civilised!

Think about Parihaka in the context of Maori in 1822 - from the so-called civilised British.

If South Island maori can happily perform Te Rauparaha’s haka after their ancestors literally passed through the digestive systems out of the anuses of him and his warriors then it should be pretty easy for them to forgive so-called ‘pakeha’ I would have thought.

Do we know of any ‘kupapa’ tribes who fought against Maori ‘rebels’ have made restitution for their ‘wrongs’? Of course we don’t. Pakeha were ‘wrong’, Maori are always right no matter whose side they are on or what they are doing.

Why did the Crown have to make restitution for the Moriori Genocide when this utterly barbaric and heinous genocide was perpetrated by two Maori Iwi?

‘The Moriori genocide[1] was the mass murder and enslavement of the Moriori people, the indigenous ethnic group of the Chatham Islands, by members of the mainland New Zealand iwi Ngāti Mutunga and Ngāti Tama from 1835 to 1863. The invaders murdered around 300 Moriori and enslaved the remaining population,[2] causing the population to drop from 1,700 in 1835 to only 100 in 1870.[1][3]’

Far from the Crown wronging Maori I think the actual history is of the Crown cleaning up the mess of an irresponsible and self-deluding people for almost two hundred years now.

[Blue Skies]

I hope the Coalition Government reviews all its contributions to the useless United Nations and all it's agencies, that achieve absolutely nothing. Now proven their staff assisted Hamas in planning the October 7 attack on Israel. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68104203


What a surprise, these allegations by Israel of 12 staff members of the UNWRA (the United Nations Work & Relief Aid for Palestine) which Israel has wanted to get rid of for years, & which pretty much the entire population of Gaza depend on to stay alive, are produced by Israel straight after the International Court of Justice produces its ruling inferring Israel may be committing genocide on the Palestinian people & must do everything in its power to prevent acts of genocide.

Meanwhile this Netanyahu extreme RW govt & Israel a self programmed democracy based on Western values, goes on trashing every International Humanitarian Law & Convention, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which it is a signatory to, the Geneva Convention which it is a signatory to, says it will ignore any rulings made by the International Court of Justice, thumbing its nose at President Biden's pleas for restraint, openly committing war crimes, bombing hospitals, schools, homes, even attacking Aid Convoys, displacing more than 1.9 million people, most for the 4th time, killing over 26,000 people mostly women & children, hundreds of thousands of starving children, over 60,000 injured, telling people to move to an area & then bombing them.
Israel has become a Pariah State.
Anyone who has any respect for Humanitarian rights & the rule of Law can see that.
And that's what almost half of Democrats in the US & the majority of the world are seeing now.
Even some of Netanyahu's Generals & a former Israeli PM say he's putting his own interests and survival ahead of the interests of Israel.


This is much bigger than Gaza now, we are openly seeing the violation & trashing of all the Humanitarian Laws & Conventions , the authority of organisations like the UN, mechanisms like the International Court of Justice, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, etc which were established after the horrors of the Second World War to try to prevent those ever happening again.
And this not by a rogue Nation or terrorist organisation, but by a supposedly successful democracy based on Western values, Israel.

On another note, recently Bernie Sanders tried to get a Resolution passed requesting the State Dept check US weapons being supplied to Israel were not in violation of US Law by being used in the process of committing war crimes.
Only 11 of 100 Senators voted to move the Resolution up to even being considered for a vote!

[Balance]

BS’s post above is straight out of Hamas’ propaganda script sent out just this morning.

Showing his true colours.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Hamas are just an evil proxy of the Iranian regime and the orders from Iran were to commit the most appalling atrocity possible, take innocent people hostage, and pull back and hide like rats in Gaza, using the entire population as human shields. The Iranian regime were rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of the carnage that would ensue, they want it for anti-Israel propaganda purposes.

The Left are fond of referring to Arab civilian deaths in Gaza as ‘a genocide’. This is a complete misnomer: in no way are Israel attempting to wipe out 40 million Arabs, most of whom live outside Gaza. It is not what they desire, and it would be an impossible undertaking.

A genuine genocide - the worst in human history based on percentage of population liquidated - occurred in the Chatham Islands and was perpetrated by bloodthirsty Maori killers -

——

The Moriori genocide[1] was the mass murder and enslavement of the Moriori people, the indigenous ethnic group of the Chatham Islands, by members of the mainland New Zealand iwi Ngāti Mutunga and Ngāti Tama from 1835 to 1863. The invaders murdered around 300 Moriori and enslaved the remaining population,[2] causing the population to drop from 1,700 in 1835 to only 100 in 1870.[1][3]

——

Why is this atrocity not remembered with a day of national mourning on New Zealand? Why do the Left want to sweep this genocide under the carpet?

[Blue Skies]

BS’s post above is straight out of Hamas’ propaganda script sent out just this morning.

Showing his true colours.


Im on the side of the rule of International Law, of Humanitarian values, of the Palestinian people & the Israeli hostages.
What side are you on?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Im on the side of the rule of International Law, of Humanitarian values, of the Palestinian people & the Israeli hostages.
What side are you on?

You’re on the side of Hamas and the Iranian regime, and probably the CCP and anyone else standing up to the ‘American capitalist imperialism’ that you on the Left are obsessed with. The UN is headed up by a socialist from Portugal and has lost all credibility.

[Balance]

Im on the side of the rule of International Law, of Humanitarian values, of the Palestinian people & the Israeli hostages.
What side are you on?

I am on the side of those who are out to destroy terrorists who kill civilians, especially babies, children, mothers and the elderly.

How dare you claim to be on the side of the rule of international law when you speak out in support of UN personnel who are closet terrorists, hiding behind the agency to plot and kill babies and children?

[Getty]

What a surprise, these allegations by Israel of 12 staff members of the UNWRA (the United Nations Work & Relief Aid for Palestine) which Israel has wanted to get rid of for years, & which pretty much the entire population of Gaza depend on to stay alive, are produced by Israel straight after the International Court of Justice produces its ruling inferring Israel may be committing genocide on the Palestinian people & must do everything in its power to prevent acts of genocide.

Meanwhile this Netanyahu extreme RW govt & Israel a self programmed democracy based on Western values, goes on trashing every International Humanitarian Law & Convention, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which it is a signatory to, the Geneva Convention which it is a signatory to, says it will ignore any rulings made by the International Court of Justice, thumbing its nose at President Biden's pleas for restraint, openly committing war crimes, bombing hospitals, schools, homes, even attacking Aid Convoys, displacing more than 1.9 million people, most for the 4th time, killing over 26,000 people mostly women & children, hundreds of thousands of starving children, over 60,000 injured, telling people to move to an area & then bombing them.
Israel has become a Pariah State.
Anyone who has any respect for Humanitarian rights & the rule of Law can see that.
And that's what almost half of Democrats in the US & the majority of the world are seeing now.
Even some of Netanyahu's Generals & a former Israeli PM say he's putting his own interests and survival ahead of the interests of Israel.


This is much bigger than Gaza now, we are openly seeing the violation & trashing of all the Humanitarian Laws & Conventions , the authority of organisations like the UN, mechanisms like the International Court of Justice, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, etc which were established after the horrors of the Second World War to try to prevent those ever happening again.
And this not by a rogue Nation or terrorist organisation, but by a supposedly successful democracy based on Western values, Israel.

On another note, recently Bernie Sanders tried to get a Resolution passed requesting the State Dept check US weapons being supplied to Israel were not in violation of US Law by being used in the process of committing war crimes.
Only 11 of 100 Senators voted to move the Resolution up to even being considered for a vote!

Did you, or are you going to, post a list of breaches and transgressions by Hamas?

[dln]

I am on the side of those who are out to destroy terrorists who kill civilians, especially babies, children, mothers and the elderly.
So you're a Hamas supporter then?

[Balance]

So you're a Hamas supporter then?

Yawn - to be expected from a woke leftist loser like you.

Try harder.

How about using your ‘one source of truth’ from the ‘most transparent government ever’?

[Logen Ninefingers]

‘Unidentified gunmen killed nine Pakistani workers in a restive southeastern border area of Iran on Saturday, Pakistan's ambassador and Iranian state media said, amid efforts by the two countries to mend ties after tit-for-tat attacks.

"Deeply shocked by horrifying killing of 9 Pakistanis in Saravan. Embassy will extend full support to bereaved families," the Pakistani ambassador to Tehran, Muhammad Mudassir Tipu, said on the X platform. "We called upon Iran to extend full cooperation in the matter."’

[dln]

Yawn - to be expected from a woke leftist loser like you.

Try harder.

How about using your ‘one source of truth’ from the ‘most transparent government ever’?

I'm neither 'woke' nor 'leftist', but by all means, keep trying to put the world into neat little labelled boxes that are easier for you to understand.

[dobby41]

Why did the Crown have to make restitution for the Moriori Genocide when this utterly barbaric and heinous genocide was perpetrated by two Maori Iwi?


Because the State aided and abetted them!

[dobby41]

I am on the side of those who are out to destroy terrorists who kill civilians, especially babies, children, mothers and the elderly.



How about those who are out to destroy terrorists who "kill civilians, especially babies, children, mothers and the elderly" themselves?
Is it that black and white - terrorists = bad, terrorist hunters = good?

[Balance]

How about those who are out to destroy terrorists who "kill civilians, especially babies, children, mothers and the elderly" themselves?
Is it that black and white - terrorists = bad, terrorist hunters = good?

War is hell and those who initiate wars create hell. Those = terrorists.

When one 'country' declares war on another country, that is what happens - it's called collateral damage.

Where are the condemnations of Hamas and Palestinians using hospitals and schools to shield themselves from righteous attacks?

How many people were killed in Hiroshima?

How many people were killed in Germany when the Allies carpet bombed the country to get rid of the Nazis?

[davflaws]

Re WWII - The Allies policy of bombing Germany from shortly after the US entry into the war included deliberate destruction of German civilian accommodation in order to destroy civilan morale. It included the deliberate use of incendaries to that end. The firestorms that resulted killed many thousands by suffocation, but the policy was a failure in that German industrial production continued to increase right up to the spring of 1945.

CP Snow wrote an insider's account. I haven't tried to find the reference, but CP Snow would be a good start.

[Blue Skies]

War is hell and those who initiate wars create hell. Those = terrorists.

When one 'country' declares war on another country, that is what happens - it's called collateral damage.

Where are the condemnations of Hamas and Palestinians using hospitals and schools to shield themselves from righteous attacks?

How many people were killed in Hiroshima?

How many people were killed in Germany when the Allies carpet bombed the country to get rid of the Nazis?





Ahh, so Balance recognises Palestine as a State now do we!
Funny that when neither Israel, or the US, or NZ or Australia, or France, Canada, Germany, Italy, Singapore, on & on etc, recognise Palestine as a Country or State.
Palestine does not even have its own army, so how can a Country which doesn't exist declare war on another country?

You talk about Hamas hiding like rats in Gaza & using civilians as shields, but they live in Gaza, where do you expect them to be?
And can't seem to thinks laterally enough & apply the same logic to Israeli Army personal who when they home to their families take their weapons and store them under their beds always ready to fight. Are they not therefore also using civilians as human shields?

You talk about the 10 Palestinian children per day having limbs amputated often without anaesthetic, because of Israel's indiscriminate bombing are just collateral damage,
Of Cemeteries & graves being deliberately bulldozed by the IDF as collateral damage
Of young children & grandmothers with children waving white flags trying to move to safety being shot by IDF
Of International Press journalists being deliberately shot by the IDF
Of literally hundreds of thousands of starving freezing children.
Where's your humanity?

Can I please ask you & others a simple request, to watch Al Jazeera on free to air TV Channel 20, or go on X formally Twitter & enter Gaza in the search box, just watch some of the images if you don't trust the commentary.
Because our MSM thinks the images are too upsetting too shocking for our viewers or they didn't want to see them & will switch channels, sort of a commercially based censorship.

That's Al Jazeera Channel 20 on your TV. And if you're worried its going to be propaganda, turn the sound off & just watch the images. It might just alter your opinions.
There's lots of other informed commentary but that's a very easy accessible one for anyone with a TV.
Or search Gaza on X /Twitter on your iPad/device

[Balance]

Ahh, so Balance recognises Palestine as a State now do we!
Funny that when neither Israel, or the US, or NZ or Australia, or France, Canada, Germany, Italy, Singapore, on & on etc, recognise Palestine as a Country or State.
Palestine does not even have its own army, so how can a Country which doesn't exist declare war on another country?

You talk about Hamas hiding like rats in Gaza & using civilians as shields, but they live in Gaza, where do you expect them to be?
And can't seem to thinks laterally enough & apply the same logic to Israeli Army personal who when they home to their families take their weapons and store them under their beds always ready to fight. Are they not therefore also using civilians as human shields?

You talk about the 10 Palestinian children per day having limbs amputated often without anaesthetic, because of Israel's indiscriminate bombing are just collateral damage,
Of Cemeteries & graves being deliberately bulldozed by the IDF as collateral damage
Of young children & grandmothers with children waving white flags trying to move to safety being shot by IDF
Of International Press journalists being deliberately shot by the IDF
Of literally hundreds of thousands of starving freezing children.
Where's your humanity?

Can I please ask you & others a simple request, to watch Al Jazeera on free to air TV Channel 20, or go on X formally Twitter & enter Gaza in the search box, just watch some of the images if you don't trust the commentary.
Because our MSM thinks the images are too upsetting too shocking for our viewers or they didn't want to see them & will switch channels, sort of a commercially based censorship.

That's Al Jazeera Channel 20 on your TV. And if you're worried its going to be propaganda, turn the sound off & just watch the images. It might just alter your opinions.
There's lots of other informed commentary but that's a very easy accessible one for anyone with a TV.
Or search Gaza on X /Twitter on your iPad/device

Same informed commentaries which treat Hamas terrorists killed as amongst the civilians.

War is hell and it is fascinating how those who live in their sanitised world think it is otherwise.

[Blue Skies]

Same informed commentaries which treat Hamas terrorists killed as amongst the civilians.

War is hell and it is fascinating how those who live in their sanitised world think it is otherwise.


Shooting grandmothers waving a white flag desperately trying to shepherd children to safety,
Desecrating graves
Shooting a child waving a white flag trying to get to safety & then shooting his brother who tries help him,
Attacking Aid Convoys
Bombing hospitals & ambulances
Shooting journalists
Bombing refugee camps

These are War Crimes under the Geneva Convention.

[Balance]

Shooting grandmothers waving a white flag desperately trying to shepherd children to safety,
Desecrating graves
Shooting a child waving a white flag trying to get to safety & then shooting his brother who tries help him,
Attacking Aid Convoys
Bombing hospitals & ambulances
Shooting journalists
Bombing refugee camps

These are War Crimes under the Geneva Convention.

Straight out of the Hamas script booklet. Did they send to you directly or via the Greens?

No mention of UN workers aiding Hamas to commit atrocities?

[nztx]

Straight out of the Hamas script booklet. Did they send to you directly or via the Greens?

No mention of UN workers aiding Hamas to commit atrocities?


The script from Russia on Ukraine must have gone astray between the USSR & BS's intray ;)

so who was it started these flare ups in these Conflicts by attacking & killing etc ? ;)

[Blue Skies]

The script from Russia on Ukraine must have gone astray between the USSR & BS's intray ;)

so who was it started these flare ups in these Conflicts by attacking & killing etc ? ;)


NTX you're obviously interested in global politics & esp Middle East politics so I urge you to watch a proper highly respected news channel, Al Jazeera, on channel 20, Freeview.
They have journalists covering the conflict from inside Gaza, the West Bank & Israel, plus Middle East experts from all around the globe.
You can also Google its free online content. You will hear both sides, but be much better informed.

Please just try it out. What have you got to lose?

[Balance]

A different perspective on how Luxon is handling the media - and winning over white middle class NZ (who I predicted would determine the outcome of elections) :

Monday, January 29, 2024

Graham Adams: Luxon keeps cool under referendum fire

The Prime Minister plays cat-and-mouse with journalists.

Within a day of becoming the National Party’s leader in November 2021, three of the nation’s most influential broadcasters — Ryan Bridge (The AM Show), Lisa Owen (Checkpoint) and Jenna Lynch (Newshub) — asked the new Leader of the Opposition whether he viewed abortion as tantamount to murder.

Christopher Luxon acknowledged that was his view but insisted the abortion laws were settled and he wouldn’t be revisiting them in government.

He was clearly uncomfortable being put on the spot over his religious beliefs and it must have felt like an astonishing coincidence — if not a stitch-up — that three senior journalists should ask him much the same question so soon after his promotion (and moreover on a topic that wasn’t even in the news). However, it undoubtedly taught him an important early lesson — given any chance at all, the media were going to crucify him. A honeymoon was definitely out of the question.

Subsequently, as a new leader finding his feet, Luxon shut down debate on several controversial topics just as soon as they appeared so journalists couldn’t exploit any chink in his armour or that of his party.

In February last year, National MP Maureen Pugh told journalists she had yet to see evidence humans have contributed to climate change. By that afternoon, after a media pile-on, she had publicly recanted, repeating the climate-change catechism in the hope of forgiveness: “I accept the scientific consensus that human-induced climate change is real and there is a need to curb greenhouse gas emissions.”

Pugh claimed her heretical words that morning had simply been misunderstood.

The speed with which Luxon closed down that honest expression of opinion was a tacit acknowledgment of the brute power the media will happily wield to destroy politicians who are critical of the media’s sacred causes — which include any criticism of anthropogenic climate change and transgender ideology. No doubt, for that reason, he steered clear of these topics on the campaign trail.

Ironically, the media’s determination to subject Luxon to a baptism of fire in his earliest days as leader has probably done him a favour. As the newly elected Prime Minister, he will have no illusions about how relentless his second baptism of fire over Māori issues will be.

However, this time he is no longer the newbie trying to establish his authority. He is the leader of a popular coalition government in which all three parties campaigned on winding back co-governance.

He now also has the support of two formidable Māori politicians on either side of him in Winston Peters and David Seymour. Perhaps for that reason, he appears confident he can handle whatever journalists throw at him over the government’s position on Māori issues.

That was apparent at Ratana last Wednesday when he was repeatedly pressed to rule out supporting David Seymour’s Treaty Principles Bill beyond a first reading and the select committee stage.

Despite having been accused on the marae of leading a “three-headed taniwha” and being “an enemy of Māori” — and Winston Peters and his deputy, Shane Jones, being called “taurekareka” (slaves) — Luxon exuded bonhomie in the stand-up press conference in the afternoon sun. He reassured his audience: “I don’t mind the provocation, I don’t mind the challenge.” He also repeated his mantra: “No intention, no commitment to take [Seymour’s bill] beyond the first reading”.

This refusal to play the “rule-in, rule-out” game seemed to discombobulate Newshub’s political editor, Jenna Lynch, who had asked him directly if he would “categorically rule out supporting the Treaty Principles Bill past first reading”.

After once again being denied her “gotcha” moment, Lynch tried to work out why the Prime Minister was so unwilling to do what she — and her fellow journalists — clearly expect. After all, they have made it crystal clear that a referendum is completely unacceptable to them. They seem to find it outrageous that Luxon won’t meekly agree that the right thing to do is to quash it — and that he intends to do just that.

Confounded, she tried to resolve this conundrum on air, thus revealing her gloriously muddled and presumptuous thought processes to Newshub’s evening audience.

Lynch decided a firm hand was required to bring the Prime Minister into line and issued a stern warning:

“Christopher Luxon’s language around that Treaty Principles Bill needs to be refined. He needs to communicate clearly either why he is not categorically ruling out supporting it past that select committee process, or, if not that, why he was even open to it in the first place if it was never going to result in a law change or referendum as the Act Party intended it to.

“Letting it go through these stages just to be killed in the process could be seen as a total waste of Parliament’s time but, not just that, it’s sparking a heated, divisive debate for an unclear outcome.”

It obviously hadn’t occurred to Lynch, as she ruminated directly to camera, that perhaps a national debate, however divisive, is needed to sort out what sort of constitutional future might be best for New Zealand and that such matters lie properly within the remit of voters. And someone should break the news to her that the Prime Minister doesn’t need to “refine” his language just because she can’t read between the lines.

Most of her viewers will be able to work out that Luxon is waiting to see how the debate progresses — and assess just how popular a referendum might be — before he decides exactly how to proceed.

Lynch put the same question about the future of Seymour’s bill to Winston Peters, who was far less diplomatic than his leader. As he walked past her, he responded: “I said I’ve had enough of novice day. Naff off, for goodness’ sake, I’m not wasting my time.” When she asked Seymour how he felt about his colleagues’ stance, he replied jauntily: “They’ve said they have no commitment to go further. They’ve also never ruled out going further so that’s good enough for me.”

Just in case Lynch and her viewers might be left in any doubt about the depth of his confidence, Seymour signed off with a snappy grin directly to the camera.

Weirdly, after demanding Luxon specify the limits of National’s support for Seymour’s bill, Lynch described it as “dead legislation walking”. If she is so sure the legislation has no future, why ask Luxon repeatedly to be more precise?

Of course, Luxon has every reason to look relaxed and unperturbed by the media onslaught. His first few months in office have met with public approval. The results of a Curia poll published on January 16 showed National hitting 41 per cent, up from the 36.5 per cent it scored in the December poll.

And for the first time since February 2022, more people said the country was on the “right track” than the “wrong track”, with a net 4 per cent saying New Zealand is heading in the right direction.

It’s also a safe bet that internal polling is showing that the coalition’s willingness to stand up to the Māori nationalists — whose cause thrived under the Ardern-Hipkins government — is a lot more popular than the mainstream media would have us believe.

Luxon’s sunny response to the barrage of insults, petulant queries and barely veiled threats of civil disruption over the suite of policies rolling back co-governance could be accurately described as “Keep calm and carry on.”

With both the Kingitanga hui and Ratana now behind them — and the Prime Minister still unrepentant — journalists look to be pinning their hopes on the annual gathering at Waitangi on February 6 to bring him to heel. Consequently, Newshub’s anchor Mike McRoberts opened a live cross to Lynch at Ratana with a leading question: “If the government got this response at Ratana, what’s Waitangi going to be like?”

Lynch explained that Ratana was traditionally a polite affair but the gloves would really come off at Waitangi. The government, she predicted, will be in for a “right dressing-down” when it heads north.

Lynch is not alone in her desire to see Luxon taught a lesson. In a column published late last week, Stuff’s chief political correspondent, Tova O’Brien, related how Luxon had defended the divergent views between the government parties on the need for a Treaty principles referendum at his post-Cabinet press conference: “Yes, there will be differences… but at the core of what we’ve got in this government is massive alignment around the things that matter most to New Zealanders.”

O’Brien recommended — in her best impression of an imperious headmistress — that the Prime Minister should take “the week and a half before Waitangi to reflect on that statement and how much Māori rights matter”.

In short, Luxon needs to stand in the corridor outside Ms O’Brien’s office until he comes to a full understanding of what he has done wrong and can present himself to her with a much more contrite and respectful attitude.

At some point journalists will really have to accept that Luxon is now the Prime Minister, and no longer someone they can try to push around just because they feel like it. He’s wise to their tactics. Furthermore, his coalition government was granted a solid majority in October — including a mandate to reverse the push by the Ardern-Hipkins government to insert co-governance everywhere in the nation’s laws and institutions.

Just a year ago, the media were shamelessly fawning over “Chippy from the Hutt” when he was handed the role of Prime Minister in a desperate attempt to save Labour’s fortunes. Against reason, they treated the shop-worn Hipkins as if he had descended fresh from the heavens in a selfless bid to restore the party’s mana — and polling — after Jacinda Ardern had decamped.

Luxon knows only too well he is not a media darling. So if he occasionally takes some small pleasure in making fools of journalists in public and watching them stamp their feet in frustration when he won’t jump when they say jump, who would blame him?

Graham Adams is an Auckland-based freelance editor, journalist and columnist. This article was originally published by ThePlatform.kiwi and is published here with kind permission.

[Blue Skies]

Balance, John Key was a very poll driven politician & according to this article by Graham Adams who says .."Luxon is waiting to see how the debate progresses - and access just how popular a referendum might be -before he decides exactly how to proceed." - he clearly implies Chris Luxon is also going to be a poll driven politician.

Waiting to see which way the wind blows, doesn't sound like the kind of leadership people voted for.

[FTG]

Always good to better understand the real "circle of influence" of an organisation & its key stakeholders, before you start promoting them & loudly singing their praises...

Especially when we are delving into geopolitics!

Al Jazeera

Who owns it?

Who is on the BOD & SMT?

What are their affiliations (in this case commercial, political & religious), and with whom are they bedfellows with?

Hamas top brass - what connections do they have with Al Jazeera, & the folk there in the key positions of "influence"?

If you can first wake up, then sharpen up, you might just be able to join those many dots on offer.

Then, and only then, the dark & conflicted picture becomes crystal clear.

[blackcap]

Always good to better understand the real "circle of influence" of an organisation & its key stakeholders, before you start promoting them & loudly singing their praises...

Especially when we are delving into geopolitics!

Al Jazeera

Who owns it?

Who is on the BOD & SMT?

What are their affiliations (in this case commercial, political & religious), and with whom are they bedfellows with?

Hamas top brass - what connections do they have with Al Jazeera, & the folk there in the key positions of "influence"?

If you can first wake up, then sharpen up, you might just be able to join those many dots on offer.

Then, and only then, the dark & conflicted picture becomes crystal clear.

Yeah I thought when BS was promoting Al Jazeera as a highly respected news channel it reconfirmed to me that he is totally sus.

[blackcap]

Always good to better understand the real "circle of influence" of an organisation & its key stakeholders, before you start promoting them & loudly singing their praises...

Especially when we are delving into geopolitics!

Al Jazeera

Who owns it?

Who is on the BOD & SMT?

What are their affiliations (in this case commercial, political & religious), and with whom are they bedfellows with?

Hamas top brass - what connections do they have with Al Jazeera, & the folk there in the key positions of "influence"?

If you can first wake up, then sharpen up, you might just be able to join those many dots on offer.

Then, and only then, the dark & conflicted picture becomes crystal clear.

Yeah I thought when BS was promoting Al Jazeera as a highly respected news channel it reconfirmed to me that he is totally sus.

[davflaws]

Always good to better understand the real "circle of influence" of an organisation & its key stakeholders, before you start promoting them & loudly singing their praises...

Especially when we are delving into geopolitics!

Al Jazeera

Who owns it?

Who is on the BOD & SMT?

What are their affiliations (in this case commercial, political & religious), and with whom are they bedfellows with?

Hamas top brass - what connections do they have with Al Jazeera, & the folk there in the key positions of "influence"?

If you can first wake up, then sharpen up, you might just be able to join those many dots on offer.

Then, and only then, the dark & conflicted picture becomes crystal clear.

You write as if you already know or think you know some of the answers to the questions you pose and as though you regard Al Jazeera as pure propaganda.

Do you believe the images of the behavior of the IDF in Gaza are faked? I can well believe that the reporting is selective, but it seems to me unlikely that the scenes regularly depicted do not happen.

[ynot]

Balance, John Key was a very poll driven politician & according to this article by Graham Adams who says .."Luxon is waiting to see how the debate progresses - and access just how popular a referendum might be -before he decides exactly how to proceed." - he clearly implies Chris Luxon is also going to be a poll driven politician.

Waiting to see which way the wind blows, doesn't sound like the kind of leadership people voted for.

Well I voted for this coalition and as far as I am concerned Luxon has my blessing to play it as he sees fit. Wind or no wind.

[nztx]

Yeah I thought when BS was promoting Al Jazeera as a highly respected news channel it reconfirmed to me that he is totally sus.


I been watching Al Jaz all through Russian / Ukraine & well before & still do

They certainly seem to be leaning one way on Israel / Gaza - no doubt about it

A change on their Ukraine / Russia stance

A bit of a pity DW now not avail here - out of Germany

[dln]

https://www.dw.com/en/live-tv/channel-english

[Blue Skies]

At least we know now where the Prime Minister Chris Luxon stands, the Treaty is a partnership between Maori & the Crown.
But shared Deputy PM David Seymour says it isn't.

So what exactly is the governments position on the Treaty?
This is bizarre for the govt to put out completely contradictory positions at the same time on such an important Constitutional issue.

Normally a Minister would resign if they held a position opposite to the govt.
This must be a first.
Who exactly is in charge?
Chaos just under the surface.


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/01/christopher-luxon-david-seymour-divided-over-treaty-of-waitangi-being-partnership.html

[mistaTea]

At least we know now where the Prime Minister Chris Luxon stands, the Treaty is a partnership between Maori & the Crown.
But shared Deputy PM David Seymour says it isn't.

So what exactly is the governments position on the Treaty?
This is bizarre for the govt to put out completely contradictory positions at the same time on such an important Constitutional issue.

Normally a Minister would resign if they held a position opposite to the govt.
This must be a first.
Who exactly is in charge?
Chaos just under the surface.


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/01/christopher-luxon-david-seymour-divided-over-treaty-of-waitangi-being-partnership.html

I don’t think it’s that complicated.

A really good reminder that our Parliamentary system is MMP.

The current government is led by National, though they have had to include all sorts of things after negotiations with ACT and NZF that were never part of the National manifesto.

Remember, what ACT really want is a referendum on the topic so that Joe Average kiwi can provide the justification to abruptly undo 50+ years of precedent.

There is no way any National Party could support that, so what to do? I think Chris has done what everyone who wanted a change in govt expected - negotiated.

And the price was at least supporting the ACT Bill to a first reading so that David and co can have their say.

NZF also had to agree to this btw.

But both National and NZF have made it clear that the chances of them supporting the Bill beyond a first reading is practically zilch.

David still gets something out of it though. With an eye on the next election he can campaign on his party being the only one prepared to sort out ‘the Maori issue’ once and for all but needs a bigger Party vote so that he can really put the hammer down next time…

And so the wheel turns.

[Balance]

At least we know now where the Prime Minister Chris Luxon stands, the Treaty is a partnership between Maori & the Crown.
But shared Deputy PM David Seymour says it isn't.

So what exactly is the governments position on the Treaty?
This is bizarre for the govt to put out completely contradictory positions at the same time on such an important Constitutional issue.

Normally a Minister would resign if they held a position opposite to the govt.
This must be a first.
Who exactly is in charge?
Chaos just under the surface.


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/01/christopher-luxon-david-seymour-divided-over-treaty-of-waitangi-being-partnership.html

As opposed to the Labour government under Ardern & Hipkins with the one view of screwing NZers without any dissension?

Shall we have another spell of the ‘one source of truth from the most transparent government ever’?

[Blue Skies]

I don’t think it’s that complicated.

A really good reminder that our Parliamentary system is MMP.

The current government is led by National, though they have had to include all sorts of things after negotiations with ACT and NZF that were never part of the National manifesto.

Remember, what ACT really want is a referendum on the topic so that Joe Average kiwi can provide the justification to abruptly undo 50+ years of precedent.

There is no way any National Party could support that, so what to do? I think Chris has done what everyone who wanted a change in govt expected - negotiated.

And the price was at least supporting the ACT Bill to a first reading so that David and co can have their say.

NZF also had to agree to this btw.

But both National and NZF have made it clear that the chances of them supporting the Bill beyond a first reading is practically zilch.

David still gets something out of it though. With an eye on the next election he can campaign on his party being the only one prepared to sort out ‘the Maori issue’ once and for all but needs a bigger Party vote so that he can really put the hammer down next time…

And so the wheel turns.




Well I suppose its one way of running a country, though it's normally constitutionally essential Cabinet Ministers are bound by collective responsibility.
Sets a risky precedent for the next 3 years, esp with dodgy NZF in the coalition & we know how tricky they can be when they have one eye on the next election.

[Balance]

Well I suppose its one way of running a country, though it's normally constitutionally essential Cabinet Ministers are bound by collective responsibility.
Sets a risky precedent for the next 3 years, esp with dodgy NZF in the coalition & we know how tricky they can be when they have one eye on the next election.

Collective responsibility like Labour under Ardern & Hipkins to cover up all the shxt (especially bullying) which went on unchecked and unmanaged?

[mistaTea]

Well I suppose its one way of running a country, though it's normally constitutionally essential Cabinet Ministers are bound by collective responsibility.
Sets a risky precedent for the next 3 years, esp with dodgy NZF in the coalition & we know how tricky they can be when they have one eye on the next election.

The main thing is that the coalition parties stick to what they have agreed to.

No more, no less.

[iceman]

Well I suppose its one way of running a country, though it's normally constitutionally essential Cabinet Ministers are bound by collective responsibility.
Sets a risky precedent for the next 3 years, esp with dodgy NZF in the coalition & we know how tricky they can be when they have one eye on the next election.

Collective responsibility means Cabinet Ministers are bound by Cabinet decisions and will not speak against them. The Cabinet has not discussed nor made any decisions on the so called "Treaty Partnership". Once again you're just making stuff up, or copying it straight from the Labour/Greens/Maori Party/Hamas propaganda..
Please do not talk about "dodgy" after your fervent support for the last few years of utter lies and deceipt from Government.
Thankfully you are now in a VERY small minority.

[davflaws]

Thankfully you are now in a VERY small minority.

Maybe. It depends what you count and how.

Demographic and social trends heavily favour the left, but many of the people who would naturally identify with and support the left do not enroll, and of those that do, a significant proportion do not vote.

I cannot easily find the relevant statistics, but on the basis of my grandkids whanau's situation, the proportion of unenrolled Maori is significantly higher than the proportion of unenrolled pakeha.

The voting statistics are clear. Enrolled Maori vote 5-7% les frequently than enrolled Pakeha.

The right have certainly prevailed with a handy electoral majority, but in terms of the whole population, they may well be in the numerical minority.

If the Left ever succeed in mobilising their natural constituency, the Right will be toast - and badly burned toast at that!

Seymour's current antics may well help.

[Balance]

Maybe. It depends what you count and how.

Demographic and social trends heavily favour the left, but many of the people who would naturally identify with and support the left do not enroll, and of those that do, a significant proportion do not vote.

I cannot easily find the relevant statistics, but on the basis of my grandkids whanau's situation, the proportion of unenrolled Maori is significantly higher than the proportion of unenrolled pakeha.

The voting statistics are clear. Enrolled Maori vote 5-7% les frequently than enrolled Pakeha.

The right have certainly prevailed with a handy electoral majority, but in terms of the whole population, they may well be in the numerical minority.

If the Left ever succeed in mobilising their natural constituency, the Right will be toast - and badly burned toast at that!

Seymour's current antics may well help.

The silent white middle class majority spoke and you woke leftists are toast.

Get used to it, loser.

[Daytr]

The silent white middle class majority spoke and you woke leftists are toast.

Get used to it, loser.

Pleased you put white in there.
Is that white hood & robe still hidden away in the closet?

[Bjauck]

The silent white middle class majority spoke and you woke leftists are toast.

Get used to it, loser.Certainly in Auckland the "middle class" "white" group would be in a minority. However they participate politically at a high rate. Probably if you have private property, you will have a greater vested interest in outcomes? Anyway it should be a reason to introduce policies to facilitate and enable widespread home ownership rather than facilitating multiple house ownership. More middle class people, rather than richer upper class people, would disadvantage the Greens and even Labour?

[Blue Skies]

The silent white middle class majority spoke and you woke leftists are toast.

Get used to it, loser.


I think there were other factors at play at the last election, Labour got voted out rather than National being voted in, after all it was Nationals second lowest share of vote in last 20 years from memory.

Labour lost 3 senior Ministers in the months leading up to the election & how often has any govt managed to win 3 Terms. Plus the Reserve Bank was winding up interest rates to dampen inflation in the economy.
The loss of those Ministers was crucial for Labour. Despite the challenges Labour faced (almost insurmountable) & Luxon & even John Key pleading with voters please don't make us have to work with Winston, & David Seymour saying he was the most untrustworthy politician in NZ, voters still wouldn't give National enough votes to secure a 2 party coalition.

[Balance]

I think there were other factors at play at the last election, Labour got voted out rather than National being voted in, after all it was Nationals second lowest share of vote in last 20 years from memory.

Labour lost 3 senior Ministers in the months leading up to the election & how often has any govt managed to win 3 Terms. Plus the Reserve Bank was winding up interest rates to dampen inflation in the economy.
The loss of those Ministers was crucial for Labour. Despite the challenges Labour faced (almost insurmountable) & Luxon & even John Key pleading with voters please don't make us have to work with Winston, & David Seymour saying he was the most untrustworthy politician in NZ, voters still wouldn't give National enough votes to secure a 2 party coalition.

Look through the election thread, BS and you would observe that I had been alerting to the big swing out there amongst white middle class NZers and that they would determine the outcome of the 2023 elections.

And that's with the benefit of the results of internal pollings done by Labour & National (via my contacts in the parties).

You can write all you like and make all the assumptions that you like - the silent majority has spoken and it's deeds that matter, not words.

[Daytr]

Look through the election thread, BS and you would observe that I had been alerting to the big swing out there amongst white middle class NZers and that they would determine the outcome of the 2023 elections.

And that's with the benefit of the results of internal pollings done by Labour & National (via my contacts in the parties).

You can write all you like and make all the assumptions that you like - the silent majority has spoken and it's deeds that matter, not words.

I have always laughed at that slogan, silent majority. What BS.
The fact is swing voters decide elections, not the staunch lefties or hard right.
It's the middle ground of about 10 - 20% of the electorate.

I should know, I'm one of them.
You can thank me later.

[Daytr]

Left hand not speaking to the right.
How many communication cockups has NAFT had now?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/pm-says-police-minister-mark-mitchell-was-wrong-on-coalition-commitment-backdown/3XLQLHKVXVFFTHXHOHC6ZGRWQA/

[nztx]

Left hand not speaking to the right.
How many communication cockups has NAFT had now?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/pm-says-police-minister-mark-mitchell-was-wrong-on-coalition-commitment-backdown/3XLQLHKVXVFFTHXHOHC6ZGRWQA/


Speaking of which -- here's a good one

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labour-uses-gif-of-influencer-andrew-tate-charged-with-rape-human-trafficking-to-endorse-instagram-post/ZXY7XDHYZBEF5JSSKPWVBK6CQE/

Still haven't got their act together even after being kicked into the gutter late last year ;)

[Balance]

I have always laughed at that slogan, silent majority. What BS.
The fact is swing voters decide elections, not the staunch lefties or hard right.
It's the middle ground of about 10 - 20% of the electorate.

I should know, I'm one of them.
You can thank me later.

Laugh all you want as I think you have done enough crying.

Fact is that Labour itself observed with alarm the swing of white middle class NZers and tried the bonfire of Ardern’s colossal disasters but as I have written, they could not fool the majority of NZers anymore with their false platitudes, promises and intentions.

Deeds, not words.

But understand where you are coming from because it’s clear words are what matters with the likes of you losers. Most revealing! Some people like you love to be fooled all the time! Sad!

[Balance]

Left hand not speaking to the right.
How many communication cockups has NAFT had now?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/pm-says-police-minister-mark-mitchell-was-wrong-on-coalition-commitment-backdown/3XLQLHKVXVFFTHXHOHC6ZGRWQA/

So refreshing to have a government who admits to errors (hardly of any consequence in any case) rather than the Labour government most transparent deceitful behaviour of them being always right.

Let’s hope it continues to be always the case with NAFC.

[Daytr]

Laugh all you want as I think you have done enough crying.

Fact is that Labour itself observed with alarm the swing of white middle class NZers and tried the bonfire of Ardern’s colossal disasters but as I have written, they could not fool the majority of NZers anymore with their false platitudes, promises and intentions.

Deeds, not words.

But understand where you are coming from because it’s clear words are what matters with the likes of you losers. Most revealing! Some people like you love to be fooled all the time! Sad!

Haha, you keen on talking about fools.
I didn't vote Labour fool.
The same swing voters also gave Labour their huge victory in 2020 as well.
So the people that decide Governments are the fools?
I would suggest anyone that has a stance such as no matter what I vote left or I vote right are the only the fools and dangerous ones at that, as it means they are not prepared to change their stance depending on what is put in front of them in regards policy or leadership. They have a closed mind.
I voted for Bolger & Key (once) and I voted for Labour recently twice, but not a 3rd time.

Hey but I'm a raging leftartd! ;)

[mistaTea]

Haha, you keen on talking about fools.
I didn't vote Labour fool.
The same swing voters also gave Labour their huge victory in 2020 as well.
So the people that decide Governments are the fools?
I would suggest anyone that has a stance such as no matter what I vote left or I vote right are the only the fools and dangerous ones at that, as it means they are not prepared to change their stance depending on what is put in front of them in regards policy or leadership. They have a closed mind.
I voted for Bolger & Key (once) and I voted for Labour recently twice, but not a 3rd time.

Hey but I'm a raging leftartd! ;)

Yes I also can't understand those who bote for a particular party 'no matter what'.

If I had so put a label on myself, I would say I am probably centre-right. But it depends on the issue really. I can be conservative on some things and remarkably liberal on others.

I think it is called being a human being :D

But the idea that I would vote for any of the parties come Hell or High Water is bizarre to me.

I could conceivably vote Labour again in the future if I felt their policies resonated with me.

[Balance]

Speaking of which -- here's a good one

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labour-uses-gif-of-influencer-andrew-tate-charged-with-rape-human-trafficking-to-endorse-instagram-post/ZXY7XDHYZBEF5JSSKPWVBK6CQE/

Still haven't got their act together even after being kicked into the gutter late last year ;)

Unbelievable!

And note that there's no apology or that Labour has screwed up big time (again)?

It was an error (apparently) and if they could, Labour would have blamed it on a 'mental health' issue.

Which of course it is as who in their right mind would use a Gif of influencer Andrew Tate - a man charged with rape and human trafficking - to endorse a post on one of the party’s Instagram accounts.
??????

Compare and contrast :


So refreshing to have a government who admits to errors (hardly of any consequence in any case) rather than the Labour government most transparent deceitful behaviour of them being always right.

Let’s hope it continues to be always the case with NAFC.



https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/xk6Iz4WR08Vmu9eIOM8bp2TvqxE=/1440x3117/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/KV5YXKES7ZHDNJDQZWQLVIQYL4.PNG

[Daytr]

Unbelievable!

And note that there's no apology or that Labour has screwed up big time (again)?

It was an error (apparently) and if they could, Labour would have blamed it on a 'mental health' issue.

Which of course it is as who in their right mind would use a Gif of influencer Andrew Tate - a man charged with rape and human trafficking - to endorse a post on one of the party’s Instagram accounts.
??????

Compare and contrast :





https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/xk6Iz4WR08Vmu9eIOM8bp2TvqxE=/1440x3117/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/KV5YXKES7ZHDNJDQZWQLVIQYL4.PNG

At least they didn't steal it like National did from Eminem, they then got caught out the next campaign as well.

[Balance]

At least they didn't steal it like National did from Eminem, they then got caught out the next campaign as well.

Fault of the advertising agency who took responsibility.

What next for Labour?

I know - use Hitler to promote separatism! :D

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1626731608572-TQMA73BFZCZBW0IBSYC8/teaching+today.jpg?format=500w

[blackcap]

I didn't realise Hipkins was a fan of Andrew Tate. Respect!

[Blue Skies]

Unbelievable!

And note that there's no apology or that Labour has screwed up big time (again)?

It was an error (apparently) and if they could, Labour would have blamed it on a 'mental health' issue.

Which of course it is as who in their right mind would use a Gif of influencer Andrew Tate - a man charged with rape and human trafficking - to endorse a post on one of the party’s Instagram accounts.
??????

Compare and contrast :






https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/xk6Iz4WR08Vmu9eIOM8bp2TvqxE=/1440x3117/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/KV5YXKES7ZHDNJDQZWQLVIQYL4.PNG



I share your outrage, how dare they not know who Andrew Tate was, such an important social influencer.

Meanwhile in Parliament yesterday our new Minister of Police Mark Mitchell who is supposed to be thoroughly briefed by his staff but should know anyway, mistakenly overrides one of his coalition partners, NZF election promises, Winston not happy. The election promise was 500 new police in 2 years Mark, not- if we possibly can, 500 in 3 years.

Good start to the year, like NZF Associate Minister of Health daft seeking advice on dropping the annual increase in tax on cigarettes without discussing it with any of her coalition colleagues in Cabinet.
Luxon not happy, says he's, - "had words" with both Ministers !

[Balance]

I share your outrage, how dare they not know who Andrew Tate was, such an important social influencer.

Meanwhile in Parliament yesterday our new Minister of Police Mark Mitchell who is supposed to be thoroughly briefed by his staff but should know anyway, mistakenly overrides one of his coalition partners, NZF election promises, Winston not happy. The election promise was 500 new police in 2 years Mark, not- if we possibly can, 500 in 3 years.

Good start to the year, like NZF Associate Minister of Health daft seeking advice on dropping the annual increase in tax on cigarettes without discussing it with any of her coalition colleagues in Cabinet.
Luxon not happy, says he's, - "had words" with both Ministers !

As already posted, isn’t it refreshing to have a government admit to an error and be open about it vs what Ardern & Hipkins with Labour did?

May it continue!

Compare and contrast with :

Oct 11 (Reuters) - New Zealand will require teachers and workers in the health and disability sectors to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said on Monday, as she extended restrictions in Auckland, its largest city, for another week.

Chris Hipkins in Sept 2023 : "There was no compulsory vaccination. People had a choice."

[dobby41]

As already posted, isn’t it refreshing to have a government admit to an error and be open about it vs what Ardern & Hipkins with Labour did?

May it continue!

So the Police Minister needs the PM to tell him what he is supposed to say.
The PM needs Willis to tell him.

Like Willis saying (during the campaign) the public service cuts wouldn't affect Defence and not Frontline workers until now when it does.

They promised lots and we wait to see what really happens.

(With Mitchell he has realised that they can't deliver in the timeframe but has been over-ruled in telling the truth.)

[Blue Skies]

As already posted, isn’t it refreshing to have a government admit to an error and be open about it vs what Ardern & Hipkins with Labour did?

May it continue!

Compare and contrast with :

Oct 11 (Reuters) - New Zealand will require teachers and workers in the health and disability sectors to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said on Monday, as she extended restrictions in Auckland, its largest city, for another week.

Chris Hipkins in Sept 2023 : "There was no compulsory vaccination. People had a choice."





Chris Hipkins is correct though clearly misunderstood.
A number of countries had compulsory vaccination for ALL adults, not just for some jobs so you had no choice.
Countries with compulsory vaccination for all adults included, Austria, Vatican City, Greece, Indonesia, Tadjikistan, & Malaysia.
So Hipkins is correct, we never had forced, mandated, compulsory (whatever you want to call it) vaccination for all adults, what we had like many countries was mandated vaccination for some work, e.g. Health & Disability. workers.
So unlike say Indonesia you had a choice, admittedly a tough one but pandemics which kill millions of people present tough choices.

[blackcap]

Chris Hipkins is correct though clearly misunderstood.
A number of countries had compulsory vaccination for ALL adults, not just for some jobs so you had no choice.
Countries with compulsory vaccination for all adults included, Austria, Vatican City, Greece, Indonesia, Tadjikistan, & Malaysia.
So Hipkins is correct, we never had forced, mandated, compulsory (whatever you want to call it) vaccination for all adults, what we had like many countries was mandated vaccination for some work, e.g. Health & Disability. workers.
So unlike say Indonesia you had a choice, admittedly a tough one but pandemics which kill millions of people present tough choices.

Thats just weasel words. It may not have been forced but you are playing sematics. If you had a mortgage to pay, it was effectively forced.

[mistaTea]

Thats just weasel words. It may not have been forced but you are playing sematics. If you had a mortgage to pay, it was effectively forced.

Yeah it was all but mandated.

Completely optional mistaTea… but if you choose not to get it then you can’t participate in society. We will be kind and let you buy food and petrol, but that’s about it.

Some choice.

[mistaTea]

Chris Hipkins is correct though clearly misunderstood.
A number of countries had compulsory vaccination for ALL adults, not just for some jobs so you had no choice.
Countries with compulsory vaccination for all adults included, Austria, Vatican City, Greece, Indonesia, Tadjikistan, & Malaysia.
So Hipkins is correct, we never had forced, mandated, compulsory (whatever you want to call it) vaccination for all adults, what we had like many countries was mandated vaccination for some work, e.g. Health & Disability. workers.
So unlike say Indonesia you had a choice, admittedly a tough one but pandemics which kill millions of people present tough choices.

For what it’s worth, I would echo some of the sentiments shared by others…

It’s unwise to marry yourself to any particular political ideology or Party.

Because when you do, after a while you can start to sound a bit silly as you continually rush to your Party of choice’s defense no matter how ridiculous.

I say this with love, as a lot of what you post is also very interesting.

But there is other stuff you say that makes me think you are an ideologue. In the same way that Balance et al seems to be a very ‘right wing’ ideologue. Not meant as an insult, just an observation.

So according to Bluesky labour can do no wrong and according to Balance they can do no right. Both positions ultimately ‘wrong’.

Come closer to the middle guys - what the rest of us perceive as reality. It’s nicer here, I swear it!

[Balance]

Thats just weasel words. It may not have been forced but you are playing sematics. If you had a mortgage to pay, it was effectively forced.

Blue Skies still deep in BS land.

By definition, mandate = mandatory = compulsory.

Hipkins :

“In terms of the vaccine mandates, I acknowledge that it was a challenging time for people but they ultimately made their own choices. There was no compulsory vaccination, people made their own choices.”

[Blue Skies]

Thats just weasel words. It may not have been forced but you are playing sematics. If you had a mortgage to pay, it was effectively forced.


Yes agreed, & an awful situation to be in, & I understand your anger, but if you were in Austria, Indonesia, Malaysia, Vatican City, or a Public Health Specialist or just someone looking at it from a global perspective & you read NZ had compulsory vaccination, you would assume that meant forced vaccination for ALL adults.
There is a huge difference between compulsory vaccination (for ALL) as in those countries, and vaccination mandates for particular jobs as in NZ & many other countries.
One comes with no options, the other with choices which some chose to make. Some in those jobs chose not to get vaccinated.
Lets hear your criticism of the policy on its own merits good & bad, what Im just saying is don't confuse/conflate the 2 policies as if they mean the same thing.

[iceman]

Chris Hipkins is correct though clearly misunderstood.
A number of countries had compulsory vaccination for ALL adults, not just for some jobs so you had no choice.
Countries with compulsory vaccination for all adults included, Austria, Vatican City, Greece, Indonesia, Tadjikistan, & Malaysia.
So Hipkins is correct, we never had forced, mandated, compulsory (whatever you want to call it) vaccination for all adults, what we had like many countries was mandated vaccination for some work, e.g. Health & Disability. workers.
So unlike say Indonesia you had a choice, admittedly a tough one but pandemics which kill millions of people present tough choices.

I think this is the first time I see us in NZ aiming to match these countries with our achievements. More often we aim to match the Nordic countries. But, whatever it takes for you to justify the NZ COVID madness I suppose !! When people are threatened with either "vaccination or lose your job", that is nothing short of compulsory.

[Blue Skies]

For what itÂ’s worth, I would echo some of the sentiments shared by othersÂ…

ItÂ’s unwise to marry yourself to any particular political ideology or Party.

Because when you do, after a while you can start to sound a bit silly as you continually rush to your Party of choiceÂ’s defense no matter how ridiculous.

I say this with love, as a lot of what you post is also very interesting.

But there is other stuff you say that makes me think you are an ideologue. In the same way that Balance et al seems to be a very ‘right wing’ ideologue. Not meant as an insult, just an observation.

So according to Bluesky labour can do no wrong and according to Balance they can do no right. Both positions ultimately ‘wrong’.

Come closer to the middle guys - what the rest of us perceive as reality. ItÂ’s nicer here, I swear it!




Sorry if I come across like that, I guess on these forums we end up taking & defending positions but I try to always present clear informed arguments rather than just the platitudes & insults some posters resort to.
People are often far more multi-layered than appear on forums, I try not to jump to conclusions about anybody on here apart from a few very extreme ones. Some of the MAGA's, climate deniers, anti-vax'ers, though I try & understand what makes them think that way.

Clearly there were many things Labour got wrong, trying to do major Health reforms during a pandemic for one, but I really liked Jacinda Ardern, she is a lovely person, great leadership & thought handled those crisis one after another brilliantly & also Chris Hipkins very bright & hard working & Grant Robertson.

But I also liked some National politicians, among them Bill English, Amy Adams, Nikki Kaye, Chris Findlayson, & John Key with some reservations & voted for National back then. Unfortunately Steven Joyce of course completely screwed up the Skycity deal so that was a black mark & cancelling contributions to the Superannuation fund was a terrible mistake.

I don't have a problem with the Treaty or with Maori having a say with co-governance, or bi-lingual signs which seems to be a big thing for many on here. Seems to provide some protection from vital NZ assets being sold off to the likes of Canadian Pension funds or the Chinese govt. I appreciate Maori culture & the language & proud of it as part of our national identity. I also see the rorts by a few.

Affordable housing for most hard working families is the root of so many social problems we face, so I was secretly pleased with NZF foreign buyers ban, though angry with their repealing the Smokefree legislation & any relaxing of gun laws esp the Gun Registry against Police advice.

Happy to admit I voted Labour last election but that was more against what I saw as National's combination of inexperience, some deeply conservative values & some awful MP's.
Hopefully Shane Reti, a decent man will be good for health but I know he was pretty gutted having to swallow that cancelled smoke free legislation.
The unwinding of environmental protection laws worries me with our polluted rivers, lakes & increasing catastrophic effects of climate change.

Ive only ever voted National or Labour which are both centrist parties with some interchangeable policies, never even considered joining a political party or ever been to any political meeting.
Anyway just a few thoughts, hope that's helpful.

[Balance]

Clearly there were many things Labour got wrong, trying to do major Health reforms during a pandemic for one, but I really liked Jacinda Ardern, she is a lovely person, great leadership & thought handled those crisis one after another brilliantly & also Chris Hipkins very bright & hard working & Grant Robertson.



Ardern - all spin and no delivery, all words and no deeds. A quitter only interested in brand Ardern and nothing else.

Hipkins - a nasty piece of shxt, well documented. https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?12593-quot-Chip-off-Ardern-Block-quot-Hipkins

Robertson - waste of space - increased government spending by over 70% (from $80 billion to over $135 billion) and debt by over $90 billion with nothing to show but big fat cats (consultants, over 100k jobseekers, Maori elites etc etc).

The truly independent Covid inquiry will disclose exactly what kind of job Ardern & Hipkins did in managing the response.

There are people who still admire the likes of Hitler which brings out the point :

"Who you admire speaks more about what sort of person you are than the people you admire."

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1654289234990-VJA5L5EF5V4RZ7YJDBT6/return.jpg?format=500w

[dobby41]

Seems that the Winston tail wags the Luxon dog.
Mitchell says that the extra police numbers will take 3 years not 2 (he has finally worked out that the capacity isn't there to train more faster).
Luxon says nothing when he says it in the House (he sits in front of him, maybe he didn't hear, maybe he didn't understand).
Winston objects to Luxon and the next minute Luxon says Mitchell misspoke.

How about those in the pocket of the tobacco industry fessing up?
Luxon doesn't want to push the point because they are NZ1st people.

[Balance]

Seems that the Winston tail wags the Luxon dog.
Mitchell says that the extra police numbers will take 3 years not 2 (he has finally worked out that the capacity isn't there to train more faster).
Luxon says nothing when he says it in the House (he sits in front of him, maybe he didn't hear, maybe he didn't understand).
Winston objects to Luxon and the next minute Luxon says Mitchell misspoke.

How about those in the pocket of the tobacco industry fessing up?
Luxon doesn't want to push the point because they are NZ1st people.

Yawn.

From the supporter of the ‘most transparent government ever’ and the ‘one source of truth’!!!

[stoploss]

Seems that the Winston tail wags the Luxon dog.
Mitchell says that the extra police numbers will take 3 years not 2 (he has finally worked out that the capacity isn't there to train more faster).
Luxon says nothing when he says it in the House (he sits in front of him, maybe he didn't hear, maybe he didn't understand).
Winston objects to Luxon and the next minute Luxon says Mitchell misspoke.

How about those in the pocket of the tobacco industry fessing up?
Luxon doesn't want to push the point because they are NZ1st people.
Bearing in mind Labour managed to build circa 2000 Kiwibuild homes out of 100,000 promised over 10 years . Let’s be kind and say they should have delivered 50,000 in 6 years .
By this measure National would only have to deliver 20 police recruits in 2 years.
I won’t start on the “ turn the first sod on the light rail to the airport in my first term in office “

[westerly]

Yawn.

From the supporter of the ‘most transparent government ever’ and the ‘one source of truth’!!!

Yawn, from the boring, repetitve parrot.

westerly

[Balance]

This is good stuff - Labour still trying to outflank the Maori Party in pro-Maori policies and strategies to appease the Maori elites.

The losers led by Hipkins have not figured out yet that white middle class NZers have had a gutsful of their appeasement policies to favour one group while driving NZ’s economy, healthcare, education and infrastructure system into the gutters with their wasteful & prolific spending.

Can see 12 years at least in opposition for Labour. :t_up:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labour-promises-ngapuhi-support-in-fight-against-government/EWO5JGWQDFHFNERTKXQUAX2T4I/

[Balance]

Meanwhile, the woke leftist MSM continues to misreport what the Coalition government is doing and saying to try and undermine the mandate given by white middle class NZers to put a stop to the Treaty gravy train and the divisive and self-serving Maori elites and their radical supporters.

Case in point :

Equal rights, not race-based rights, was the consistent promise made by Prime Minister Christopher Luxon in his speech at Ratana. It was aspirational, outlining a vision for a better New Zealand, but one would have to have read the speech rather than the media reports of the speech to appreciate that. The media coverage has, as we have now come to expect, been appalling.

Given the media seemingly can’t get over their bias, we are republishing the Prime Minister’s Ratana address as this week’s NZCPR Guest Commentary, so you can read for yourself what he actually said:

“I stand before you today as Prime Minister and as the Leader of the National Party, the Party of Apirana Ngata, the Party that has negotiated the vast majority of Treaty settlements – and the Party that has worked hard over decades to honour the Treaty and restore the honour of the Crown. That is a heritage of which I am extremely proud.

“So, let me be absolutely clear: The Government has no plan, and never has had plans, to amend or revise the Treaty, or the Treaty settlements we have all worked so very hard together to achieve.

“The Government will honour the Treaty. But unlike the Labour government, we will honour it without moving away from equal voting rights, without creating complex co-governance bodies and bureaucracies in Wellington to decide how central services should be delivered in the regions, and we will honour it while upholding the equality of all New Zealanders before the law…”

The Prime Minister reaffirmed the Coalition Government’s commitment to equal rights.

But as admirable as the sentiments of Chris Luxon may be, he will not appease or silence Maori sovereignty activists and the tribal elite, who do not want their gravy train derailed.

Their aim is not only to perpetuate the grievance industry for profit, but to advance a radical agenda to oust those who are not in favour of Maori privilege from positions of influence.

But the truth is that fair minded kiwis, including many of Maori decent, have had enough of tribal activists using culture as a vehicle, not only for personal enrichment, but also to impose their radical agenda onto the country.

Their extremism is plain to see.

Just last week members of a northern iwi tried to stop a fishing competition that had been going for 40 years. They are reported as saying their grievance was that their mana had been disrespected because the competition organisers had not consulted them. Their protest action was designed to send a message to the fishermen taking part in the competition – and also to the Government for its plans to ‘abolish the Treaty’.

Clearly the PM’s commitment to “honour the Treaty” did not resonate with these radicals.

https://www.nzcpr.com/derailing-the-treaty-gravy-train/

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1706906322938-6ZWI59VUN77E6EIOJNVG/Gravy+Train.jpg?format=500w

[mistaTea]

This is good stuff - Labour still trying to outflank the Maori Party in pro-Maori policies and strategies to appease the Maori elites.

The losers led by Hipkins have not figured out yet that white middle class NZers have had a gutsful of their appeasement policies to favour one group while driving NZ’s economy, healthcare, education and infrastructure system into the gutters with their wasteful & prolific spending.

Can see 12 years at least in opposition for Labour. :t_up:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labour-promises-ngapuhi-support-in-fight-against-government/EWO5JGWQDFHFNERTKXQUAX2T4I/

I do applaud Luxon for telling iwi leaders straight up they need to get their kids to school.

Hipkins wishy washy criticism just doesn’t cut it in my view. Education is so fundamental to success, regardless of your ethnicity.

And we are competing on a global scale, so crucial that all of our school leavers are educated in the key areas that will allow them to compete (whether it be them going overseas, or competing with immigrants moving to NZ).

First things first, get the kids back to school. Then we can talk about what areas can be improved to ensure we don’t slip back to unacceptable truancy levels.

Ultimately this all does feed back into the narrative that all labour do is talk and appease but no action (and therefore poor tangible results).

Whether or not that is a very fair narrative is another story, but it is the perception of a lot of people I know that for sure.

[Daytr]

Why have the posts about NAFT's ties to the tobacco industry been deleted?
Balance's recent posts on the OCA thread have also been deleted.
What's going on?
Any idea Balance?

[Balance]

Why have the posts about NAFT's ties to the tobacco industry been deleted?
Balance's recent posts on the OCA thread have also been deleted.
What's going on?
Any idea Balance?

Someone complained that we are having far too much fun? :D

Especially in outing a certain shyster?

[Balance]

I do applaud Luxon for telling iwi leaders straight up they need to get their kids to school.

Hipkins wishy washy criticism just doesn’t cut it in my view. Education is so fundamental to success, regardless of your ethnicity.

And we are competing on a global scale, so crucial that all of our school leavers are educated in the key areas that will allow them to compete (whether it be them going overseas, or competing with immigrants moving to NZ).

First things first, get the kids back to school. Then we can talk about what areas can be improved to ensure we don’t slip back to unacceptable truancy levels.

Ultimately this all does feed back into the narrative that all labour do is talk and appease but no action (and therefore poor tangible results).

Whether or not that is a very fair narrative is another story, but it is the perception of a lot of people I know that for sure.

Absolutely - education, education and more education.

What we have had in the last 6 years was Labour doing everything to undermine and destroy the educational system built up over decades in favour of cultural, racial, gender and woke policies.

Now we have the Maori elites and Labour challenging the notion that parents must take responsibility for their children to attend school!

WTF!

[mistaTea]

Absolutely - education, education and more education.

What we have had in the last 6 years was Labour doing everything to undermine and destroy the educational system built up over decades in favour of cultural, racial, gender and woke policies.

Now we have the Maori elites and Labour challenging the notion that parents must take responsibility for their children to attend school!

WTF!

Yes I think it’s hard to argue with that sentiment.

Just nuts that the govt would be criticised for saying parents etc need to get the kids back to school.

First we get the kids back to school then we address opportunities for change etc.

Otherwise I know what will happen. Entire generation of Maori will be left behind. As a group they will do even worse than they are now all all of the stats.

So yes I do tip my hat to Luxon on this. Good on him for saying it straight up to iwi leadership.

[Balance]

Yes I think it’s hard to argue with that sentiment.

Just nuts that the govt would be criticised for saying parents etc need to get the kids back to school.

First we get the kids back to school then we address opportunities for change etc.

Otherwise I know what will happen. Entire generation of Maori will be left behind. As a group they will do even worse than they are now all all of the stats.

So yes I do tip my hat to Luxon on this. Good on him for saying it straight up to iwi leadership.

It suits the agenda of the Maori elites and Labour to keep the Maori population under-educated and backward. That way, they can count on them being state dependents and voters for Labour & the Maori cabal forever.

Can see through their true intentions so easily.

[davflaws]

I do applaud Luxon for telling iwi leaders straight up they need to get their kids to school.
An admirable sentiment. I don't know too much about primary or secondary abscences , but my understanding is that many of them are poverty related and many others arise from disconnection as a result of shifting houses frequently because of problems in the rental market.

My knowledge of the postcompusory sector is pretty old now, but I doubt that the factors contributing to engagement and success have changed.

There, the issues that overwhelmingly determine outcomes are engagement and cultural 'fit', and devolution of governance and resources to iwi organisations and others that can provide culturally appropriate programs has proved most successful.

That has been gradually happening for thirty to forty years, and while the words may change under Luxon, I doubt that much else will.

I certainly hope not.

[Balance]

An admirable sentiment. I don't know too much about primary or secondary abscences , but my understanding is that many of them are poverty related and many others arise from disconnection as a result of shifting houses frequently because of problems in the rental market.

My knowledge of the postcompusory sector is pretty old now, but I doubt that the factors contributing to engagement and success have changed.

There, the issues that overwhelmingly determine outcomes are engagement and cultural 'fit', and devolution of governance and resources to iwi organisations and others that can provide culturally appropriate programs has proved most successful.

That has been gradually happening for thirty to forty years, and while the words may change under Luxon, I doubt that much else will.

I certainly hope not.

Garbage as usual.

Singapore (rated one of the best in the world for educational achievements and excellence) adopted Western education as its model and there is no issue with cultural fit etc BS etc garbage.

It’s simple - education, education and more education.

[mistaTea]

An admirable sentiment. I don't know too much about primary or secondary abscences , but my understanding is that many of them are poverty related and many others arise from disconnection as a result of shifting houses frequently because of problems in the rental market.

My knowledge of the postcompusory sector is pretty old now, but I doubt that the factors contributing to engagement and success have changed.

There, the issues that overwhelmingly determine outcomes are engagement and cultural 'fit', and devolution of governance and resources to iwi organisations and others that can provide culturally appropriate programs has proved most successful.

That has been gradually happening for thirty to forty years, and while the words may change under Luxon, I doubt that much else will.

I certainly hope not.

I certainly don’t think that there is a conspiracy by ‘Maori Elite’ to push through policies that will hurt Maori and keep them down so that the elites are guaranteed votes in the future and a platform from which to preach…

And you are dead right that poverty etc plays a part in school attendance etc. even the high cost of school uniforms is an example of something that can deter school attendance.

We can’t pontificate while we wait to solve poverty though to get these kids back to school.

Like Balance and many others I also think they education, education, education is so fundamentally important.

And truancy is just off the radar right now.

Yes we need to make sure we are working hard to ensure accessibility etc etc…

But first things first - the kids have got to start going to school now. And in that light I have to give Luxon a nod for telling iwi leaders very frankly what was needed. A lot of people would have just avoided the issues, not to wanting to upset anyone with a controversial Waitangi Day looming.

[Daytr]

Unfortunately drugs & alcoholism also plays a big part in kids not making it to work. P is an underreported problem in NZ and it creates havoc in families.

[Entrep]

Unfortunately drugs & alcoholism also plays a big part in kids not making it to work. P is an underreported problem in NZ and it creates havoc in families.
As Marama Davidson would say, they didn’t have alcohol, drugs or P before the English arrived, so who should take responsibility

[nztx]

As Marama Davidson would say, they didn’t have alcohol, drugs or P before the English arrived, so who should take responsibility


Probably didn't have the dough either nor the Greens to tell them how things were becoming extinct doubly fast either .. but neither probably bothered them back then :)

[Balance]

One of the toxic legacies of the Labour government of clueless Ardern, hopeless Hipkins and the power mad Maori cabal - longer time spent on welfare by jobseekers & other beneficiaries.

Another mess for the new government to sort out.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/benefit-blowout-government-models-reveal-longer-stays-on-welfare/J2BZUQOV6RC47PODN2SFJO6FLE/
Paywalled

Modelling obtained by the Herald reveals that expected time on Jobseeker and other main benefits has risen sharply in the past four years,

[nztx]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/police-commissioner-andrew-coster-and-police-minister-mark-mitchell-texts-reveal-insight-into-relationship/ZCCH2R5YKNEUNCCBWNHNEOMSHQ/

Police Commissioner Andrew Coster and Police Minister Mark Mitchell: Texts reveal insight into relationship



Maybe now something constructive gets achieved .. a far cry from the revolving door & stream of clueless Labour fill-in Halfwits landing in the role before being promptly deposed or shunted into other spots ;)

[mistaTea]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/police-commissioner-andrew-coster-and-police-minister-mark-mitchell-texts-reveal-insight-into-relationship/ZCCH2R5YKNEUNCCBWNHNEOMSHQ/

Police Commissioner Andrew Coster and Police Minister Mark Mitchell: Texts reveal insight into relationship



Maybe now something constructive gets achieved .. a far cry from the revolving door & stream of clueless Labour fill-in Halfwits landing in the role before being promptly deposed or shunted into other spots ;)

I read that artcle earlier - clickbait was a Headline of "Chummy texts between top cop Coster and police minister revealed'.

And then when you read it, the texts are about what you would expect with the new Minister and the Coster cementing a working relationship? Nothing crossed the line, and I would prefer that they had a positive relationship so we can tackle the very real issues this country faces?

Articles like this - slapped on the top of the Home Page with a provocatice headline - is exactly the kind of thing that make a lot of us think MSM is not worth subscribing to as the perception is that most of the editors and journos are very left wing and scrutinise the new colation in a way they never scrutinised the previous lot.

I mean, Cindy kept locking Auckland down and these guys just sat there eating up all the bs from the Podium of Truth. Not a word of protest.

But Mitchell and Coster text each other and it's implied (with the use of the word chums) that they are just a couple of good old boys.

A Minister asks for some advice on tobacco and the sky is falling! (As an aside a did see a funny cartoon with a caricature of Shane Reti with a fag in hand - his name was captioned as Ciga Reti. Christ I almost shat what I saw that! :D)

Funding for Cultural Reports is scrapped and there is all this energy about how it is unfair. A lot of people would actually think you should scrap it altogether (as ACT wants) - but the idea that the taxpayer should fork out millions of dollars a year so that Maori offenders can get a shorter sentence is baffling. But do the MSM even mention that? Nope.
Actually, one 'critic' said that the $7m or whatever it was spent a year on Cultural Reports is actually saving taxpayers money because then the offenders don't stay in prison for as long! Man, I really must be a dummy because I didn't even consider that! You know what? As a nation we could save a fortune if we just never locked anyone up at all!

[Blue Skies]

I read that artcle earlier - clickbait was a Headline of "Chummy texts between top cop Coster and police minister revealed'.

And then when you read it, the texts are about what you would expect with the new Minister and the Coster cementing a working relationship? Nothing crossed the line, and I would prefer that they had a positive relationship so we can tackle the very real issues this country faces?

Articles like this - slapped on the top of the Home Page with a provocatice headline - is exactly the kind of thing that make a lot of us think MSM is not worth subscribing to as the perception is that most of the editors and journos are very left wing and scrutinise the new colation in a way they never scrutinised the previous lot.

I mean, Cindy kept locking Auckland down and these guys just sat there eating up all the bs from the Podium of Truth. Not a word of protest.

But Mitchell and Coster text each other and it's implied (with the use of the word chums) that they are just a couple of good old boys.

A Minister asks for some advice on tobacco and the sky is falling! (As an aside a did see a funny cartoon with a caricature of Shane Reti with a fag in hand - his name was captioned as Ciga Reti. Christ I almost shat what I saw that! :D)

Funding for Cultural Reports is scrapped and there is all this energy about how it is unfair. A lot of people would actually think you should scrap it altogether (as ACT wants) - but the idea that the taxpayer should fork out millions of dollars a year so that Maori offenders can get a shorter sentence is baffling. But do the MSM even mention that? Nope.
Actually, one 'critic' said that the $7m or whatever it was spent a year on Cultural Reports is actually saving taxpayers money because then the offenders don't stay in prison for as long! Man, I really must be a dummy because I didn't even consider that! You know what? As a nation we could save a fortune if we just never locked anyone up at all!





C'mon Mista Tea, I thinks you're showing your strong bias recently. (Btw what tea do you recommend)


1) Anyone could see in the lead up to the election how heavily critical our new Minister of Police, Mark Mitchell was of the Police Commissioner Coster.
Coster was an absolute target for a lot of Mitchell's criticism, so much so that he must have expected like everybody else did, he would be replaced when the new govt came in with Mark Mitchell as Minister.
Well it turns out everybody couldn't have been more wrong, not only will Coster keep his job but Mitchell wants to be good mates with Coster.
That's newsworthy.

2) Framing a (Assoc) Minister of Health caught out denying (lying) asking for advice on easing the cost of cigarettes because the tobacco industry is on its knees, & cigarettes are getting too expensive for smokers - as just a Minister asking for some advice on tobacco is disingenuous.
esp when organisations she has previously been a senior figure in have received funding from Tobacco Industry.
A Minister of Health is not supposed to be too concerned with the declining profits of the tobacco industry. It was embarrassing for the PM.
That's newsworthy.

3) Does anyone really think Luxon telling Iwi leaders they must get Maori kids to school is going to make a blind bit of difference? That's just Populism talk, blame, no actual solutions. Do you think kids skipping school are going to listen to Iwi leaders.
If you talk to teachers & Principals, what did make a difference was policies like the Free Lunch program which not only encouraged hungry kids to come to school but also helped their concentration & behaviour in class,
And the Free Period Products was another with girls skipping school because their families couldn't afford them.
Yes truancy is a huge problem, but equally it was also under the previous National govt. Good luck to this govt for fixing it, lets hope they can.
It was extremely disappointing to see Labour funded extra Truancy officers but the Ministry of Ed seemed to let them down badly on this.

4) As for Cultural Reports, I can understand arguments for both sides but it def has turned into a cottage industry.
I would have thought it was the Defence lawyers job to present extenuating circumstances both cultural & otherwise. And Judges are pretty perceptive

[dobby41]

A Minister asks for some advice on tobacco and the sky is falling! (As an aside a did see a funny cartoon with a caricature of Shane Reti with a fag in hand - his name was captioned as Ciga Reti. Christ I almost shat what I saw that! :D)

She then denies that she asked - so what's to hide then?
The issue isn't that she asked - it's that she then denied it.

[dobby41]

And unite them he did.

14944

[davflaws]

Funding for Cultural Reports is scrapped and there is all this energy about how it is unfair. A lot of people would actually think you should scrap it altogether (as ACT wants) - but the idea that the taxpayer should fork out millions of dollars a year so that Maori offenders can get a shorter sentence is baffling. But do the MSM even mention that? Nope.
Actually, one 'critic' said that the $7m or whatever it was spent a year on Cultural Reports is actually saving taxpayers money because then the offenders don't stay in prison for as long! Man, I really must be a dummy because I didn't even consider that! You know what? As a nation we could save a fortune if we just never locked anyone up at all!

We still needlessly imprison a higher proportion of our population than most of the OECD (170/100,00 vs avge OECD 147).

This costs us all dollars and since almost everyone comes out worse than they went in it doesn't actually make us any safer - quite the contrary. There are some people who need to be locked up for everyone's protection. Lock them up to keep us safe.

For the rest, let's use more cheaper and more effective ways of rehabilitating offenders than prison. We know what they are. 'Three strikes' may be popular, but it costs us dollars that could be more usefully spent, and adds to the sum total of human misery witout making us any safer.

[Balance]

Clueless Cindy is so disappointing. My heart has been broken so many times by her lies and spin but to me, she is still my one source of truth.

Enjoy, dobby41.

[mistaTea]

We still needlessly imprison a higher proportion of our population than most of the OECD (170/100,00 vs avge OECD 147).

This costs us all dollars and since almost everyone comes out worse than they went in it doesn't actually make us any safer - quite the contrary. There are some people who need to be locked up for everyone's protection. Lock them up to keep us safe.

For the rest, let's use more cheaper and more effective ways of rehabilitating offenders than prison. We know what they are. 'Three strikes' may be popular, but it costs us dollars that could be more usefully spent, and adds to the sum total of human misery witout making us any safer.

I don’t disagree in principle that there are a range of crimes where we do not need to put people in prison. Home detention is a good option for a range of offences.

And it is likely to generate a better outcome for all, and also saves the taxpayer money.

No issue whatsoever there.

As you say, there are many other very serious crimes where incarceration is needed.

My issue is on different sentences for the same crime based on ethnicity - the cultural report being the method of creating these different outcomes.

As soon as you do that sort of thing it will cause major issues over time as the public simply cannot accept it.

[Balance]

Latest poll with Waitangi Day controversy sees ACT gaining support.

Coalition gaining overall at the expense of Greens and Maori Party. Labour stuck in the doldrums - hardly surprising given their total lack pf coherent policies led by Hapless Hipkins.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/poll-shows-act-leader-david-seymour-and-party-gaining-support-after-waitangi-events/3FQWSZB3TBFCJDDRF26VTWVFIU/

The Act party and its leader David Seymour appear to have reaped the dividends of a heated Waitangi Day period, rocketing up to 13.7 per cent in the latest Taxpayers’ Union-Curia poll.

The poll, taken over the first week of February and released today, has Act on 13.7 per cent – up 5.6 points since the last TPU-Curia poll in November.

National is also up 2.6 points to 39.6 per cent, while NZ First has dropped to 5 per cent (down 1.)

[fungus pudding]

Latest poll with Waitangi Day controversy sees ACT gaining support.

Coalition gaining overall at the expense of Greens and Maori Party. Labour stuck in the doldrums - hardly surprising given their total lack pf coherent policies led by Hapless Hipkins.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/poll-shows-act-leader-david-seymour-and-party-gaining-support-after-waitangi-events/3FQWSZB3TBFCJDDRF26VTWVFIU/

The Act party and its leader David Seymour appear to have reaped the dividends of a heated Waitangi Day period, rocketing up to 13.7 per cent in the latest Taxpayers’ Union-Curia poll.

The poll, taken over the first week of February and released today, has Act on 13.7 per cent – up 5.6 points since the last TPU-Curia poll in November.

National is also up 2.6 points to 39.6 per cent, while NZ First has dropped to 5 per cent (down 1.)


If something seems to good to be true - it probably isn't.

[dobby41]

Enjoy, dobby41.

Up to your old tricks of providing edited quotes (ie lies).
Very dishonest of you!

Follow the link and you will all see that it wasn't a quote from me at all.

[Balance]

Up to your old tricks of providing edited quotes (ie lies).
Very dishonest of you!

Follow the link and you will all see that it wasn't a quote from me at all.

And what did you do?

You are a hypocrite of the highest order, dobby41.

[Getty]

3) Does anyone really think Luxon telling Iwi leaders they must get Maori kids to school is going to make a blind bit of difference? That's just Populism talk, blame, no actual solutions. Do you think kids skipping school are going to listen to Iwi leaders.
If you talk to teachers & Principals, what did make a difference was policies like the Free Lunch program which not only encouraged hungry kids to come to school but also helped their concentration & behaviour in class,
And the Free Period Products was another with girls skipping school because their families couldn't afford them.


So will the Labour Party formulate a policy of providing free taxpayer funded Lotto tickets, because families can't afford them?

[fungus pudding]

So will the Labour Party formulate a policy of providing free taxpayer funded Lotto tickets, because families can't afford them?

FFS. don't say that out loud. They might be listening.

[mistaTea]

So will the Labour Party formulate a policy of providing free taxpayer funded Lotto tickets, because families can't afford them?

I am not really sure where BS is coming from on this.

Even with all Labour’s ‘freebies’ - from lunches to tampons - truancy rates have been at record highs. Way out of whack.

So yes, Luxon putting the hard word in iwi leaders about this major issue was the right thing.

And if the kids won’t listen to their elders - parents, kaumatua, iwi leadership etc - then why would the public want to devolve a bunch of resource to iwi so that they can manage more of their own affairs?

I am in favour of devolution of resources (not just for iwi). But if I am to believe BS then I may need to rethink that.

If ‘Maori’ can’t get their kids to school then how in the Hell are we going to hand over large sums of money with confidence? You can’t have a bob both ways BS.

And excuses like the ones you mention are the same as what Labour are harping on about. And they continue to plummet in popularity.

The public are tired of excuses and want to see some action now. For a whole range of issues.

[mistaTea]

First things first. We have got to get our kids back to school now.

That is fundamental.

Then we can talk about who needs tampons etc to reduce barriers.

And any public schools not letting kids go to class because they don’t have the right stationary etc - I want them on the front page of the paper.

If they feel their position is justified then they will have no problems answering questions about it.

[Daytr]

Up to your old tricks of providing edited quotes (ie lies).
Very dishonest of you!

Follow the link and you will all see that it wasn't a quote from me at all.


And what did you do?

You are a hypocrite of the highest order, dobby41.

Seriously Balance you get caught out deliberately editing a quote dobby41 & call them a hypocrite?

You obviously could contribute to this thread as you have shown on others but you continually shoot your integrity in the foot.
Posts like this just destroys your credibility for all you post.
All those high powered people you claim to know, if they saw what you posted at times, they would be embarrassed by the association.

[Blue Skies]

I am not really sure where BS is coming from on this.

Even with all Labour’s ‘freebies’ - from lunches to tampons - truancy rates have been at record highs. Way out of whack.

So yes, Luxon putting the hard word in iwi leaders about this major issue was the right thing.

And if the kids won’t listen to their elders - parents, kaumatua, iwi leadership etc - then why would the public want to devolve a bunch of resource to iwi so that they can manage more of their own affairs?

I am in favour of devolution of resources (not just for iwi). But if I am to believe BS then I may need to rethink that.

If ‘Maori’ can’t get their kids to school then how in the Hell are we going to hand over large sums of money with confidence? You can’t have a bob both ways BS.

And excuses like the ones you mention are the same as what Labour are harping on about. And they continue to plummet in popularity.

The public are tired of excuses and want to see some action now. For a whole range of issues.





We all know causes of our increasing truancy crisis are complex & wide ranging, everything & more from meth in homes & dysfunctional family life, bullying at schools, school feeling unwelcoming, teachers high workloads at breaking point, class sizes resulting in students never engaging properly, students negative interactions with a teacher i.e. poor teachers, schools not wanting to re-enrol truant students with significant behavioural problems, poverty, frequent changes of schools due to unstable renting, etc. Talk to some teachers & if there's an aggressive hostile student disrupting the class they're quite happy not to have them at school.

I heard 1 desperate single mother saying her son is bigger than she is & when she pleads with him to go to school & he refuses, there's nothing she can do about it.
She doesn't want to destroy her relationship with her son by dobbing him in to authorities either.
Fining her as the parent & as ACT suggests hardly seems constructive.

Luxon's hardly the first PM to talk to Iwi, all govt's have, & if Iwi leaders could fix truancy, they would have by now.

So its not excuses but there's no simple one size fits all solution, & it needs a whole raft of solutions.
Free lunches & free period products have been 2 targeted solutions & they've been effective at reducing absenteeism, but they won't solve other issues.


Labour increased funding for Truancy officers, another targeted solution, but that's ambulances at the bottom of the cliff & was poorly managed.

It's disappointing to hear this crisis being politicised the way it has, eg.
Seymour cynically attacking & undermining Labour's Free Lunch program which we know from many school Principals & teachers has been really successful.
Politicians should care more about the students & schools its helping rather than trying to score points against Labour.

The teaching profession has been underpaid for years & if we want to attract the best people into teaching & make it competitive to get in, we ned to make it a high earning profession.
How you fix class sizes with massive immigration into the country, I don't know.
Nor how you eliminate bullying another huge problem.

[Bill Smith]

Just heard the BS artists on ZB news say TPM had a small drop in the latest poll. Well 3.4% to 2.3% is close to a 33% drop. 2 more drops of that magnitude would have them at 0%. (About where they should be IMO)

[Balance]

Seriously Balance you get caught out deliberately editing a quote dobby41 & call them a hypocrite?

You obviously could contribute to this thread as you have shown on others but you continually shoot your integrity in the foot.
Posts like this just destroys your credibility for all you post.
All those high powered people you claim to know, if they saw what you posted at times, they would be embarrassed by the association.

Yawn.

Did you see what dobby41 do?

Yawn - in any case, as if your opinion is of any consequence.

Yawn.

[Balance]

And unite them he did.

14944

Great cartoon.

Should have showed (as the latest polls do) how white Middle Class & Asian voters are unifying behind the coalition to tackle the toxic racist & divisive policies put in place by & vote grabbing actions of Ardern, Hipkins and the Maori cabal.

Wonderful stuff! :t_up:

[dobby41]

And what did you do?

You are a hypocrite of the highest order, dobby41.

I haven't quoted anything that you didn't write - whereas you make stuff up and attribute it to people.
Who knows what lies you have quoted?
Please remove the post.

[Balance]

I haven't quoted anything that you didn't write - whereas you make stuff up and attribute it to people.
Who knows what lies you have quoted?
Please remove the post.

Refer your post #1429.



A Minister asks for some advice on tobacco and the sky is falling! (As an aside a did see a funny cartoon with a caricature of Shane Reti with a fag in hand - his name was captioned as Ciga Reti. Christ I almost shat what I saw that! :D)

Show me when I wrote the above post.

[dobby41]

Refer your post #1429.



Show me when I wrote the above post.

Well, that is interesting as I did 'reply with quote'.
It seems that the quote is from Mistatea @ 1427 which makes sense.
I don't know what happened there but I'll correct the quote and apoligise for whatever happened.
Maybe you could do the right thing and remove the false quote - if that is within your honour?

[dobby41]

Well, that is interesting as I did 'reply with quote'.
It seems that the quote is from Mistatea @ 1427 which makes sense.
I don't know what happened there but I'll correct the quote and apoligise for whatever happened.
Maybe you could do the right thing and remove the false quote - if that is within your honour?

It seems that Balance has no honour - to be expected!

[dobby41]

Bye bye to a chunk of funding for Auckland to improve local roads with nothing to replace it.
A bit tough for Aucklanders.

14953

[iceman]

Bye bye to a chunk of funding for Auckland to improve local roads with nothing to replace it.
A bit tough for Aucklanders.

14953

The ambulance drivers will be happy that the endless building of speed bumps all around the place will stop. So will a lot of other unnecessary stuff such as $ 650,000 dollar pedestrian crossings.

[Balance]

Bye bye to a chunk of funding for Auckland to improve local roads with nothing to replace it.
A bit tough for Aucklanders.

14953

Wonderful news!

Another great cartoon from the woke leftist MSM, totally ignoring what the Auckland regional fuel tax was to be used for :

A good read of the rort which is going to be history in July - Auckland Regional Fuel Tax.

Heather du Plessis-Allan: Good riddance to the Auckland Regional Fuel Tax

It's official, the Auckland Regional Fuel Tax is gone-burger from 1 July.

Aucklanders will not have to pay $11.5 cents a litre more than everyone else in the country every time they fill up their cars. Toyota Hilux drivers will save $9.20 a fill and Toyota Corolla drivers will save $5.75 a fill.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

That was a rort, wasn’t it? Remember what Auckland was supposed to get for that?

We were supposed to get upgrades to Mill Road, the road I'm obsessed with because of how desperately the city needs it- running from Manukau down to Drury as an alternative to the jam-packed Southern Motorway.

Did we get it? We paid for it for six years.

Did we get it? No, of course we didn't.

Did we get the Lake Road upgrade we’ve been talking about since at least 2017? No, we didn't get that.

Did we get the Glenvar Road upgrade we’ve been talking about since at 2016? No, we didn't get that. And the list goes on.

Instead, the money got used for cycle lanes and speed humps. And do I need to remind you about those speed humps?

How about the one got laid in Three Kings, then got ripped up two years later and laid again because AT stuffed up- and it cost us $600k? How about that one?

Mayor Wayne Brown is not happy about the loss of funding. He's released a list of projects at the end of a press release, with no explanation for the list.

The inference, I'm thinking, is that these are the projects that are going to get cut, because they haven't got the funding.

Let me list some:

Mangere West cycleway.
Road safety programme, including high-risk intersections.
The safe speeds programme, aimed at reducing vehicle speeds near schools.
Small scale projects to improve local cycling connections.
New low cost cycle ways to improve safety and travel options.
Upgrades to multi-modes roads, paths, and intersections to support Kainga Ora.

I doubt very much that many Aucklanders are going to cry tears over this because of one reason.

We have paid this under the mistaken belief that we were paying for better roads. What we got instead was AT squandering money on their own inability to just construct a basic pedestrian crossing.

But more importantly, what we got was a city that is now more congested and harder to drive around.

So as far as I can see, very little has improved for what we've paid, and much of what we're seeing is worse.

I'm happy to defund Auckland Transport.

[Blue Skies]

Brilliant, Nicola Willis when interviewed this morning says "ALL the heads of the Public Service Dept's were CONFIDENT they would be able to achieve the (govt's) cost savings targets."
"We've got Chief Executives who are determined to do that job."

Tonight the Chief of the Defence Force, say the cuts will mean our Hercules & Seasprite helicopters won't be able to fly, & some of our ships won't be able to go to sea.
Brilliant, - we're confident we can achieve the cost savings but small problem we won't be able to do the things you want us to do.

There's already been several leaks from Govt Dept's, watch the drips become a stream of leaks. .

[Panda-NZ-]

That was a rort, wasn’t it? Remember what Auckland was supposed to get for that?

Where's our 20 bucks... still in the mail.

Only 105+ more sleeps when Kiwis have bills to pay today.

[Blue Skies]

Looks like the govt cancelling the 2 new Cook Strait ferries on order is a huge mistake.

Cook Strait one of the most dangerous stretches of water in the world, crucial part of State Highway 1 for freight & passengers connecting the 2 islands.

Current ferries have had it, there are only 22 second hand ferries in the world which fit the specifications needed & none are for sale.
If we end up with no option than having to replace the current ferries with new ones, they're going to cost 40% more than the $555 million deal we had for 2 new ferries & are cancelling.

Kiwirail say we'll never get the chance to buy 2 new ferries for that price again & buying second hand ones now, even if they were available might cost more than the deal we had for the new ones.


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/509154/kiwirail-in-talks-to-cancel-contracts-for-new-interislander-ferries

[Balance]

Looks like the govt cancelling the 2 new Cook Strait ferries on order is a huge mistake.

Cook Strait one of the most dangerous stretches of water in the world, crucial part of State Highway 1 for freight & passengers connecting the 2 islands.

Current ferries have had it, there are only 22 second hand ferries in the world which fit the specifications needed & none are for sale.
If we end up with no option than having to replace the current ferries with new ones, they're going to cost 40% more than the $555 million deal we had for 2 new ferries & are cancelling.

Kiwirail say we'll never get the chance to buy 2 new ferries for that price again & buying second hand ones now, even if they were available might cost more than the deal we had for the new ones.


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/509154/kiwirail-in-talks-to-cancel-contracts-for-new-interislander-ferries

And you expect Kiwirail which presided a blowout in costs of monumental proportions to say otherwise? :D

[Balance]

Where's our 20 bucks... still in the mail.

Only 105+ more sleeps when Kiwis have bills to pay today.

And what about the share buyback for Ryman?

[jonu]

Looks like the govt cancelling the 2 new Cook Strait ferries on order is a huge mistake.

Cook Strait one of the most dangerous stretches of water in the world, crucial part of State Highway 1 for freight & passengers connecting the 2 islands.

Current ferries have had it, there are only 22 second hand ferries in the world which fit the specifications needed & none are for sale.
If we end up with no option than having to replace the current ferries with new ones, they're going to cost 40% more than the $555 million deal we had for 2 new ferries & are cancelling.

Kiwirail say we'll never get the chance to buy 2 new ferries for that price again & buying second hand ones now, even if they were available might cost more than the deal we had for the new ones.


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/509154/kiwirail-in-talks-to-cancel-contracts-for-new-interislander-ferries

You left out the bit about the new ferries requiring billions being spent onshore to accommodate them.

[blackcap]

You left out the bit about the new ferries requiring billions being spent onshore to accommodate them.

Don't expect some inconvenient facts to get in the way of a good story.

[Balance]

Blue Skies gets his information from the playbooks of Labour, Greens and Hamas.

So sad that a person can be so indoctrinated with BS & spin.

[Blue Skies]

You left out the bit about the new ferries requiring billions being spent onshore to accommodate them.



So what do you suggest?
Just keep going with the old crappy unreliable ferries we have which are well past their use by date & wait until we have a maritime disaster ?
Re order new ones at todays prices which cost 40% more than the deal we had?
Pretend we can buy someone's old cast off second hand ferries when there aren't any available?


Those costs of approx 2.5 billion were associated with onshore infrastructure, new ferry terminals in Wellington & Piction to accomodate the new rail capable ferries.

But at some stage that infrastructure will have to be built whether now, or in 10 years time when it will end up costing more.
It would make more sense to cut costs in the Harbourside infrastructure, rather than cancel the deal we had for these brand new purpose built ferries.


Cook Strait is a vital link in NZ State Highway 1.

[blackcap]

Cook Strait is a vital link in NZ State Highway 1.

That is what is being kept saying but is it really? I believe Christchurch has excellent international airports of the wet and flying variety and Southland also has a good port. Not sure the "link" is that vital at all. It would just mean a different way of doing things.

The cable is already in place so the power transfer won't be afffected. Not sure what I am missing.

[Blue Skies]

That is what is being kept saying but is it really? I believe Christchurch has excellent international airports of the wet and flying variety and Southland also has a good port. Not sure the "link" is that vital at all. It would just mean a different way of doing things.

The cable is already in place so the power transfer won't be afffected. Not sure what I am missing.


It's enormously expensive to carry heavy freight by air. We don't have enough planes to service the all the freight even if the cost wasn't a factor.
How many fully loaded railway wagons or containers can you fit on a plane?
And who is going to pay to have their car or camper van flown across Cook Strait by plane? There's about 250,000 cars carried across Cook Strait by ferry every year.

[jonu]

So what do you suggest?
Just keep going with the old crappy unreliable ferries we have which are well past their use by date & wait until we have a maritime disaster ?
Re order new ones at todays prices which cost 40% more than the deal we had?
Pretend we can buy someone's old cast off second hand ferries when there aren't any available?


Those costs of approx 2.5 billion were associated with onshore infrastructure, new ferry terminals in Wellington & Piction to accomodate the new rail capable ferries.

But at some stage that infrastructure will have to be built whether now, or in 10 years time when it will end up costing more.
It would make more sense to cut costs in the Harbourside infrastructure, rather than cancel the deal we had for these brand new purpose built ferries.


Cook Strait is a vital link in NZ State Highway 1.

Then buying/leasing ferries that don't require billions of accompanying spending is smart is it not? Grant's disastrous slush fund ran out BS. It's one of the reasons the useless sod got sacked along with his useless mates. Now we all get to feel the pain for years to come. Thanks Cindy. Thanks Grant, Andrew, Megan, Kelvin et al.

Edit: Whoops forgot the chipster/hipster on the useless list. Maybe it's because he is irrelevant?

[Joshuatree]

It's enormously expensive to carry heavy freight by air. We don't have enough planes to service the all the freight even if the cost wasn't a factor.
How many fully loaded railway wagons or containers can you fit on a plane?
And who is going to pay to have their car or camper van flown across Cook Strait by plane? There's about 250,000 cars carried across Cook Strait by ferry every year.

All because of Nationals dong shaped carrot,tax cuts( timing couldn't be worse),by hook or by crook Nicola has to deliver hence cuts everywhere.What a monumental disaster we are heading into.

[jonu]

All because of Nationals dong shaped carrot,tax cuts( timing couldn't be worse),by hook or by crook Nicola has to deliver hence cuts everywhere.What a monumental disaster we are heading into.

No JT. it's because Labour wasn't able to organise the proverbial in a brewery, but would manage to spend hundreds of millions trying. Let's see, harbour crossing/light rail/Polytechs/Mental health/ferries. All with absolutely nothing to show for it, and even in some cases, worsening the situation.

Never again. Not while any of those named useless incompetents are anywhere leadership. Their parliamentary pensions and salaries should be paid towards the national debt if responsibility was laid where belongs.

[blackcap]

It's enormously expensive to carry heavy freight by air. We don't have enough planes to service the all the freight even if the cost wasn't a factor.
How many fully loaded railway wagons or containers can you fit on a plane?
And who is going to pay to have their car or camper van flown across Cook Strait by plane? There's about 250,000 cars carried across Cook Strait by ferry every year.

I was not talking about freight with regards to air. I meant pax. THere is no impediment to reaching either Island. Freight can go by ship and we have ports aplenty in both islands. It just means a different way of doing things but should not be too costly.

As for the cars and campers, again over time, there will be an app that will sort that out via a leasing/swapping model, or alternatively the hire companies will do better. But thats not really economically challenging or damaging. Tourist will just pick an Island.

[iceman]

Brilliant, Nicola Willis when interviewed this morning says "ALL the heads of the Public Service Dept's were CONFIDENT they would be able to achieve the (govt's) cost savings targets."
"We've got Chief Executives who are determined to do that job."

Tonight the Chief of the Defence Force, say the cuts will mean our Hercules & Seasprite helicopters won't be able to fly, & some of our ships won't be able to go to sea.
Brilliant, - we're confident we can achieve the cost savings but small problem we won't be able to do the things you want us to do.

There's already been several leaks from Govt Dept's, watch the drips become a stream of leaks. .

Is that the Defence Force that has lost about 1/3 of its staff in the last couple of years ? The Force that so lacks staff that they’ve been unable to crew their ships and maintain their aircraft ?

[davflaws]

Is that the Defence Force that has lost about 1/3 of its staff in the last couple of years ? The Force that so lacks staff that they’ve been unable to crew their ships and maintain their aircraft ?

Yup. Don't know about the other services, but the Navy got caught by the last Nat govt demand to cut $400M (from memory) from their budget.

They reduced training. No immediate bad effect and savings made. But reduced training affected the 'flow through supply' of seaman officers and technical specialists. That increased the workload and demands on the remaining staff and enormously increased the previous 'attrition rate' .

Result - can't crew the existing ships. So mothball half the fleet. Result - further increase the workload of the remaining assets and staff, and further increase the attrition rate. A viscious downward spiral which the Labour Govt tried to reverse, but there is a very long lag, and the damage done by the cuts made under National is still evident.

[davflaws]

. But thats not really economically challenging or damaging. Tourist will just pick an Island.

You clearly have - Fantasy Island!

[Joshuatree]

No JT. it's because Labour wasn't able to organise the proverbial in a brewery, but would manage to spend hundreds of millions trying. Let's see, harbour crossing/light rail/Polytechs/Mental health/ferries. All with absolutely nothing to show for it, and even in some cases, worsening the situation.

Never again. Not while any of those named useless incompetents are anywhere leadership. Their parliamentary pensions and salaries should be paid towards the national debt if responsibility was laid where belongs.

Never say neverJonu Bond ,lol..We are in a spiral to chaos with this 3headed monster.Our debt to GDP is far better then many other developed countries including Aus,Japan,USA,,UK,Canada,etc thanks to Labour
Tax cuts are just showing a lust for power at any cost atpit. $Billions wiped with the slash and burn to Labours policies,Ferries just one stupid example,3 Waters another,20% rates rises here we come .People will rue this govt for decades

[blackcap]

I did not realise National forced them to cut $400m from the budget 2 years ago?

[777]

=Joshuatree;1040901 .People will rue this govt for decades

I doubt it but you can hope.

[Panda-NZ-]

We almost had race-based protests recently.

Polls this far out are meaningless and yes the opposition is in disarry (though it doesn't mean the current govt is good). Repeal repeal repeal with nothing to replace, and no funding for new infrastructure.

[Blue Skies]

I was not talking about freight with regards to air. I meant pax. THere is no impediment to reaching either Island. Freight can go by ship and we have ports aplenty in both islands. It just means a different way of doing things but should not be too costly.

As for the cars and campers, again over time, there will be an app that will sort that out via a leasing/swapping model, or alternatively the hire companies will do better. But thats not really economically challenging or damaging. Tourist will just pick an Island.




I don't mean to be disrespectful but there's so many things you're not aware of with your suggested solutions I don't know where to start.

e.g. Apart from it would be a good idea to look at a map of NZ, & remind yourself we are well into the 21st Century, the new ferries we ordered were going to double passenger & vehicle capacity & triple rail capacity while reducing carbon emissions by 40%.
That puts less pressure on other areas like agriculture which will have to carry that extra load now to meet the countries agreed Emissions targets or we risk being fined billions of dollars.
This govt has kicked the can down the road.

[dobby41]

Wonderful news!


Any chance of you being honourable and apologising for posting totally made-up quotes?

[Balance]

Any chance of you being honourable and apologising for posting totally made-up quotes?

You denying that you are a big fan of Ardern?

And that you believe in her?

[Balance]

National up again.

Hapless Hipkins down in the polls with no end in sight.

What has he achieved? Nothing.

What does he stand for? Nothing.

What did he do? He initiated the bonfire of Clueless Cindy's policies & projects (where he played a humongous role in creating!).

Why is he leader of Labour? Because nobody else wants the job.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350182821/new-poll-win-right-act-slightly-dips

https://www.odt.co.nz/sites/default/files/styles/odt_landscape_extra_large_4_3/public/story/2023/11/yeo_cartoon_091123.jpg?itok=VsKpkBE4

[dobby41]

You denying that you are a big fan of Ardern?

And that you believe in her?

I'm denying that I wrote what you quoted @1432 - you make stuff up and attribute it to people.
Shame on you!

[dobby41]

Luxon still trying to have us believe that he is in charge.
14955

[blackcap]

I don't mean to be disrespectful but there's so many things you're not aware of with your suggested solutions I don't know where to start.

e.g. Apart from it would be a good idea to look at a map of NZ, & remind yourself we are well into the 21st Century, the new ferries we ordered were going to double passenger & vehicle capacity & triple rail capacity while reducing carbon emissions by 40%.
That puts less pressure on other areas like agriculture which will have to carry that extra load now to meet the countries agreed Emissions targets or we risk being fined billions of dollars.
This govt has kicked the can down the road.

There is a simple solution which I would fully endorse, and that is pull out of any Emmisions Targets that we currently are signed up to.

[Daytr]

There is a simple solution which I would fully endorse, and that is pull out of any Emmisions Targets that we currently are signed up to.

Yep let's just keep polluting the atmosphere without regard for the planet.

Blackcap virtually anything you would endorse is the opposite of what should and needs to be done. You are a great inverse barometer.

[Blue Skies]

There is a simple solution which I would fully endorse, and that is pull out of any Emmisions Targets that we currently are signed up to.


If we even could do that, apart from the environmental impact, it would be catastrophic for our trade & export sector.

NZ along with 194 other countries in fact just about every nation on the planet, signed up to a legally binding International Treaty in 2015 known as the Paris Agreement.
It's now enshrined in NZ Law.

If we pulled out, NZ would become a pariah state in the eyes of the International community
AND foreign consumers & therefore foreign buyers like supermarket chain Tescos, the biggest buyer on NZ products in Britain who warn they "want to get to net zero across its whole supply chain by 2025", - "so around 2025 to 2030 want to make sure that 100% of what we source in terms of fresh produce, meat & dairy is environmentally accredited" would stop buying our produce.

If we pulled out, our exports would be hit & it would give farmers in the EU & Britain just the excuse they need to demand their govt's cancel our Free Trade Agreements.

Consumers used to be prepared to pay a premium for Sustainably produced products, but Retail companies like Tescos have noticed a big change to consumers now expecting produce to meet environmentally friendly standards.

We are facing a major problem here in that due to our 3 year election cycle & intense lobbying by farmers like Groundswell, our biggest emitter agriculture has been given exceptions from the ETS until next year 2025, so we are already well behind on tracking to meet our targets.

So we are facing either finding a way to take a big chunk out of our emissions fast OR buying carbon credits from overseas, either way is going to be hugely costly & its not on the govt's books.
Treasury has estimated we will need to buy 100 million tonnes at a cost anywhere between $3.3 billion - $23 billion between now and 2030.

And National's Simon Watt's has talked about delaying Farmers emissions another 5 years until 2030 with vague assurances we will get to 70-75% of our 2030 target by easing regulations on renewable energy infrastructure like wind & solar.

It's the problem of unpopular politics & the short election cycles crashing into reality, kick the can down the road, give the voters what they want e.g. tax cuts, we'll deal with it later.
Both National & Labour are guilty.



https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/498515/the-multibillion-dollar-climate-hole-faced-by-both-labour-and-national

[dobby41]

If we even could do that, apart from the environmental impact, it would be catastrophic for our trade & export sector.

And that sums it up.
It will also get harder (or more expensive) to get funding if we aren't seen as playing our part.

[jonu]

If we even could do that, apart from the environmental impact, it would be catastrophic for our trade & export sector.

NZ along with 194 other countries in fact just about every nation on the planet, signed up to a legally binding International Treaty in 2015 known as the Paris Agreement.
It's now enshrined in NZ Law.

If we pulled out, NZ would become a pariah state in the eyes of the International community
AND foreign consumers & therefore foreign buyers like supermarket chain Tescos, the biggest buyer on NZ products in Britain who warn they "want to get to net zero across its whole supply chain by 2025", - "so around 2025 to 2030 want to make sure that 100% of what we source in terms of fresh produce, meat & dairy is environmentally accredited" would stop buying our produce.

If we pulled out, our exports would be hit & it would give farmers in the EU & Britain just the excuse they need to demand their govt's cancel our Free Trade Agreements.

Consumers used to be prepared to pay a premium for Sustainably produced products, but Retail companies like Tescos have noticed a big change to consumers now expecting produce to meet environmentally friendly standards.

We are facing a major problem here in that due to our 3 year election cycle & intense lobbying by farmers like Groundswell, our biggest emitter agriculture has been given exceptions from the ETS until next year 2025, so we are already well behind on tracking to meet our targets.

So we are facing either finding a way to take a big chunk out of our emissions fast OR buying carbon credits from overseas, either way is going to be hugely costly & its not on the govt's books.
Treasury has estimated we will need to buy 100 million tonnes at a cost anywhere between $3.3 billion - $23 billion between now and 2030.

And National's Simon Watt's has talked about delaying Farmers emissions another 5 years until 2030 with vague assurances we will get to 70-75% of our 2030 target by easing regulations on renewable energy infrastructure like wind & solar.

It's the problem of unpopular politics & the short election cycles crashing into reality, kick the can down the road, give the voters what they want e.g. tax cuts, we'll deal with it later.
Both National & Labour are guilty.



https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/498515/the-multibillion-dollar-climate-hole-faced-by-both-labour-and-national

Did the Paris agreement exempt food production?

[Blue Skies]

Did the Paris agreement exempt food production?


Short answer, no, agriculture was not given an exemption.

'References to food & farming in the text are minimal, and any are in the non binding parts of the text.'

'Food security is not referenced in the operative text of the Paris Agreement.'
In the non binding parts there is references to 'recognising the priority of safeguarding food security & ending hunger & the particular vulnerabilities of food production systems to the adverse impacts of climate change.'


It's clear without a contribution from agriculture, the targets can't be reached.
Agriculture is a major contributor to emissions & is also threatened by climate change as a consequence of catastrophic events like flooding & droughts.

[Valuegrowth]

Deleted. Sorry wrong thread.

[Panda-NZ-]

Erica stanford loses control of our borders.. 130k have been let in this year alone.

[777]

Erica stanford loses control of our borders.. 130k have been let in this year alone.

So all those who had been approved over the previous six months or so should have been turned around?

You really are incapable of thinking aren't you?

[RTM]

https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/02/16/welcome-to-rip-****-and-bust-economic-development/

Some may be interested in this.

[iceman]

https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/02/16/welcome-to-rip-****-and-bust-economic-development/

Some may be interested in this.

"page not found"

[777]

Try

https://newsroom.co.nz/news/

I went to their site, selected news and searched rip ***t and got there.

[RTM]

"page not found"

Still not working

[Baa_Baa]

Try

https://newsroom.co.nz/news/

I went to their site, selected news and searched rip ***t and got there.

Do this ^, it works. The word sh1t is being changed by this website into **** which is why that link will not work.

[Panda-NZ-]

Try

https://newsroom.co.nz/news/

I went to their site, selected news and searched rip ***t and got there.


There is one reasonable solution... merge with Australia. ;)

It's kinda hard to do anything being isolated and with 5 mil (only a percentage of this 5mil being economically useful). The article raises good points though.

[nztx]

There is one reasonable solution... merge with Australia. ;)

It's kinda hard to do anything being isolated and with 5 mil (only a percentage of this 5mil being economically useful). The article raises good points though.


You dont like Argentina anymore .. or too hard / didn't look hard enough ? ;)

[Balance]

Latest TV1 Poll :

National 38% +1%
Labour 28%
Greens 12% -2%
ACT 8% -1%
NZF 6%
TMP 4% +2%
TOP 2%

And here's the big move :

Hapless Hipkins 15% - 10%

[Panda-NZ-]

The first order of business is like any good christian, to go after the weakest members of society.

Not on criminals or gangs, as they also promised to do but on law abiding citizens.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/comment-prime-minister-christopher-luxons-tough-love-welfare-move-is-part-theatre-and-a-lot-of-politics/4OFO4ZNSJNEWJET53WCAODIN7E/

[nztx]

The first order of business is like any good christian, to go after the weakest members of society.

Not on criminals or gangs, as they also promised to do but on law abiding citizens.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/comment-prime-minister-christopher-luxons-tough-love-welfare-move-is-part-theatre-and-a-lot-of-politics/4OFO4ZNSJNEWJET53WCAODIN7E/


All the nice little examples who don't follow the mandate & requirements they signed up for getting a benefit ? ;)

Doesn't sound overly offensive or harsh - when the little scumbags fail to show up, perform or do what they
they were supposed to be doing to receive support .. a different story if they get missed off the payout list however ;)


Another lot of poor hardworking pr!cks have had to work & pay tax to support this lot of non performers
shirking on what was expected of them .. ;)