UK Election

[Daytr]

Interesting times in the UK.
It's been a long, long way back for Labour in the UK. The SNP debacle could be the tipping point.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/06/hung-parliament-uk-general-election-rishi-sunak

[Panda-NZ-]

The damage is done.

Interesting to ponder whether, if labour had a half-decent candidate before Kier (instead of the Ed duo and then Corbyn), they might have won as soon as 2015.

[Bjauck]

The damage is done.

Interesting to ponder whether, if labour had a half-decent candidate before Kier (instead of the Ed duo and then Corbyn), they might have won as soon as 2015. Both US and UK politics seem to be a toxic and barren landscape at the moment.

This last Right Wing UK govt must have been the most destructive not only economically, but socially too. Divisive European policy; divisive social policy. Northern Ireland used and then ignored for Conservative ideological purposes. The Brexit lies from some Conservative leaders are so far entrenched with the electorate, that Labour is too scared to deviate much from them.

[Panda-NZ-]

They were going to rebuild the british empire after Brexit and return to the glory days.

At least we (and particularly Australia) got a good deal from it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia%E2%80%93United_Kingdom_Free_Trade_Agreem ent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand%E2%80%93United_Kingdom_Free_Trade_Agre ement

[Panda-NZ-]

Helped in part by having an NZer on the UK "negotiating team" :p


Eustice was particularly critical of one other person involved, Crawford Falconer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_Falconer), the New Zealand-born interim permanent secretary of the Department of International Trade (DIT): "His approach always was to internalise Australian demands, often when they were against UK interests, his advice was invariably to retreat and make fresh concessions and all the while he resented people who understood technical issues greater than he did." Eustice said Falconer should be replaced with "somebody who understands British interests better than I think he's been able to."

[Bjauck]

Helped in part by having an NZer on the UK "negotiating team" :p You’d think he would resist Aussie demands, being a Kiwi!

I wonder why the Brits would think they would be good at negotiations, when the EU had been doing trade negotiations on behalf of the UK, and all member states, for so long. Unrealistic expectations!

[Bjauck]

Uk general election to be held on July 4th! Impossible for the British to be independent from Britain, but they can get rid of the Conservatives who have been so economically and socially destructive.

[Panda-NZ-]

Farage says PM 'doesn't care about our history, our culture'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogfVnmhjw9o

Farage trying his best to outright replace the conservatives with his own party. on the current polls it's possible.

[blackcap]

Farage says PM 'doesn't care about our history, our culture'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogfVnmhjw9o

Farage trying his best to outright replace the conservatives with his own party. on the current polls it's possible.

Yeah great to see Farage back with the reform party. PJW has a couple of videos on this phenomena:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ5kSCEpegA

[Daytr]

Yeah great to see Farage back with the reform party. PJW has a couple of videos on this phenomena:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ5kSCEpegA

Is that called a 'scrum of scare mongering' or a 'cluster of conspiracies' ?
Farage is a the very face of the modern politic, in the mode of Boris & Trump & dangerous as hell.

[Bjauck]

Yeah great to see Farage back with the reform party. PJW has a couple of videos on this phenomena:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ5kSCEpegA
PJW makes an entertaining video! Unfortunately Farage is a more inspiring speaker than the other British leaders. Maybe there will be the dream team of Trump in the Jail House, Farage in Drowning Street, and Putin in the Gremlin. No wonder those Scandinavians scuttled into NATO - poor Ukraine.

I don’t know why Farage says Brexit is a failure. The people got what Farage campaigned for. They are out of the EU. Mission accomplished.

Farage was always going to blame something other than Brexit itself for British failures. He could always claim Brexit was misdelivered. The vote was just to leave the EU not for how, or for what was to happen afterwards. Farage should blame himself for the post-Brexit mess the Conservatives have delivered. Without EU workers, more less well trained third world immigrants would be needed to work farms and keep hospitals and elsewhere functioning.

It would be incredible if Clackton votes him in after the mess for which he is considerably responsible! Brexit has consumed UK politics for so long.

[iceman]

I've spent a few days with family in Wales in the last few days, including a long term Labour MP from a Welsh electorate. The change to electorates will reduce MPs representing Wales at Westminster from 40 to 32 in this election but the changes look very favoruable to Labour. No doubt, from the way she speaks, that Labour is expecting a landslide in Wales.

[Bjauck]

I've spent a few days with family in Wales in the last few days, including a long term Labour MP from a Welsh electorate. The change to electorates will reduce MPs representing Wales at Westminster from 40 to 32 in this election but the changes look very favoruable to Labour. No doubt, from the way she speaks, that Labour is expecting a landslide in Wales.
Wales and Scotland have their own parliaments. There must be a democratic deficiency for England, if Scottish and Welsh MPs in Westminster get to vote on matters concerning England alone.

Wales used to get regional funding from the EU I think. Did the Conservative government fully replace that funding?

Whichever Party was in power after Brexit, was going to become unpopular due to the inevitable disruption of Brexit, especially with Covid coming on top of that. Then Johnson and his Conservative advisers had their drinks parties despite Lockdowns and social distancing.

[iceman]

Wales and Scotland have their own parliaments. There must be a democratic deficiency for England, if Scottish and Welsh MPs in Westminster get to vote on matters concerning England alone.

Whichever Party was in power after Brexit, was going to become unpopular due to the inevitable disruption of Brexit, especially with Covid coming on top of that. Then Johnson and his Conservative advisers had their drinks parties despite Lockdowns and social distancing.

I am aware of that but the Welsh Parliament has limited powers and areas where they have control and 2/3 of Government revenue still goes to Westminster.

[Daytr]

I've spent a few days with family in Wales in the last few days, including a long term Labour MP from a Welsh electorate. The change to electorates will reduce MPs representing Wales at Westminster from 40 to 32 in this election but the changes look very favoruable to Labour. No doubt, from the way she speaks, that Labour is expecting a landslide in Wales.

That's a significant reduction in representation.
Is there a general reduction in the number of MPs? Or is just redefined every so often due to population movement?

The US system was set up to protect the frontiersmen or what's now middle America where states like Wyoming & Delaware have a much higher proportion of power per capita. In fact ridiculously so. The Republicans must love the system that says hillbillies have more say than Californians or New Yorkers.
If the US had a system of one vote per person & no electoral college then the Democrats would win every election hands down.

[Bjauck]

I am aware of that but the Welsh Parliament has limited powers and areas where they have control and 2/3 of Government revenue still goes to Westminster.
Wales had UK electorates with materially fewer voters than electorates in England. There was a democratic deficiency, especially considering Wales also has its own parliament whereas England does not. So Wales had to lose UK parliamentary electorates to ensure the number of voters per electorate was similar UK-wide.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-58487323

[GTM 3442]

There seems to be a “natural life” to governments in the Anglosphere - probably around ten years or so, dependent on the normal electoral term.

The current UK government at 14-odd years is a bit of an outlier, as was the last NZ government at 6 years.

I think governments get voted out, I mean have you ever heard anyone say “Vote the b*st*rds IN”?

[Daytr]

French elections called as well in a response to the Far Right seemingly getting a stranglehold on European Union elections.
Worrying times in Europe considering their history.

[blackcap]

French elections called as well in a response to the Far Right seemingly getting a stranglehold on European Union elections.
Worrying times in Europe considering their history.

I'm very happy to see Le Pen and National Front do well. Macron's time seems to be almost up.

[Bjauck]

I'm very happy to see Le Pen and National Front do well. Macron's time seems to be almost up. Le Pen would be more devastating than Brexit, destroying the EU from within. She wants to reestablish border checks with other EU countries, and to withhold the French budget contributions. She is not pro-Ukraine and would try to block Ukraine from NATO and the EU.

Her economic policies seem to be Left-wing. She is in favour of the welfare state, protectionism of French industry, wants a retirement age of 60, and to boost minimum wages. She is also against the privatisation of public services.

[jonu]

Le Pen would be more devastating than Brexit, destroying the EU from within. She wants to reestablish border checks with other EU countries, and to withhold the French budget contributions. She is not pro-Ukraine and would try to block Ukraine from NATO and the EU.

Her economic policies seem to be Left-wing. She is in favour of the welfare state, protectionism of French industry, wants a retirement age of 60, and to boost minimum wages. She is also against the privatisation of public services.

The EU is destroying itself from within. NATO pledged not to creep further towards Russia back in the 90s. Then kept on pushing. Yes, Putin is an a/hole, but he has been goaded into Ukraine by those making billions out of the mess. If there was a need for more clear evidence needed of the industrial military complex, the Russia/Ukraine war is it.

The unfettered immigration and refugee acceptance into the EU has already changed the social fabric and will continue to do so as the low European birthrate comes home to roost, as it is in most Western countries.

Combine these factors with the over-reach of the Left in recent years and it is no surprise that there has been a pendulum swing to the Right.

[iceman]

French elections called as well in a response to the Far Right seemingly getting a stranglehold on European Union elections.
Worrying times in Europe considering their history.

This "far right" label is getting a bit worn when a large proportion of Europeans are voting for those parties. It is a reaction to the disastrous EU policies of the last decade or two, particularly on immigration & environmental issues and the endless descriptive rules on just about everything to do with daily lives of its people.
People have simply had enough of the enormous problems these failed policies have created and are voting for a change.

We heard that Italy would turn to an even bigger custard when Meloni became PM but she has become much more realistic and seems to have much of her voters with her in what she is doing. I suspect LePen will be similar and is already showing signs of more moderate policies than what she is recognised for.

[Bjauck]

The EU is destroying itself from within. NATO pledged not to creep further towards Russia back in the 90s. Then kept on pushing. Yes, Putin is an a/hole, but he has been goaded into Ukraine by those making billions out of the mess. If there was a need for more clear evidence needed of the industrial military complex, the Russia/Ukraine war is it.

The unfettered immigration and refugee acceptance into the EU has already changed the social fabric and will continue to do so as the low European birthrate comes home to roost, as it is in most Western countries.

Combine these factors with the over-reach of the Left in recent years and it is no surprise that there has been a pendulum swing to the Right.Policies do not always stay the same. Given the Baltic states’ and Eastern Europe’s history with Russia and then Putin’s rise to power, it obviously meant several reassessments. Putin wants the annihilation of Ukraine and its assimilation with Russia. The buck stops with him.

Some aspects of the EU are more successful than others. The refugee crises have seen tensions, whereas the single market has been quite successful. One only has to see the difficulties that British trade experiences now, and worsening British political divisions over immigration to see what happens without the single market. Not to mention the weaker hand the UK now has when negotiatings third party deals.

Le Pen may have some right wing social policies but is left/socialist with respect to taxation, protectionism, and preferring a large state sector.

[Bjauck]

This "far right" label is getting a bit worn when a large proportion of Europeans are voting for those parties. It is a reaction to the disastrous EU policies of the last decade or two, particularly on immigration & environmental issues and the endless descriptive, rules on just about everything to do with daily lives of its people.
People have simply had enough of the enormous problems these failed policies have created and are voting for a change.

We heard that Italy would turn to an even bigger custard when Meloni became PM but she has become much more realistic and seems to have much of her voters with her in what she is doing. I suspect LePen will be similar and is already showing signs of more moderate policies than what she is recognised for.
What are the EU rules that are objectionable, and how do they differ from what the UK has, or Canada, or NZ? They have stringent health and safety, and food standards. However I fail to see how those are a bad thing for people.

I think some of the European nationalist parties toned down their plans to leave the EU in the wake of Brexit and its problems for the UK. Policies sometimes change when a Party actually takes the reins of government.

[blackcap]

Le Pen would be more devastating than Brexit, destroying the EU from within. She wants to reestablish border checks with other EU countries, and to withhold the French budget contributions. She is not pro-Ukraine and would try to block Ukraine from NATO and the EU.

Her economic policies seem to be Left-wing. She is in favour of the welfare state, protectionism of French industry, wants a retirement age of 60, and to boost minimum wages. She is also against the privatisation of public services.

I am all for destroying the EU as it currently stands. Individual borders would be great. Give countries their Sovereignty back.
I am also not for letting Ukraine be part of NATO.
Her left wing policies are a bit of a pain but I can put up with that.

Brussels needs to go. The EU concept is probably 20 years past its use by date.
Initially it may have had good intent as a trading bloc. Unfortunately it has become a beauracratic hell for member countries and becomes ever more authoritarian.

[Bjauck]

I am all for destroying the EU as it currently stands. Individual borders would be great. Give countries their Sovereignty back.
I am also not for letting Ukraine be part of NATO.
Her left wing policies are a bit of a pain but I can put up with that.

Brussels needs to go. The EU concept is probably 20 years past its use by date.
Initially it may have had good intent as a trading bloc. Unfortunately it has become a beauracratic hell for member countries and becomes ever more authoritarian.
As a concept, I think the old trading bloc of the EEC was more manageable than the political behemoth of the EU with its many nations. On the plus side, maybe a Le Pen France would help bring the EU back to its EEC origins, opening the door a bit wider for a UK readmission.

[jonu]

Policies do not always stay the same. Given the Baltic states’ and Eastern Europe’s history with Russia and then Putin’s rise to power, it obviously meant several reassessments. Putin wants the annihilation of Ukraine and its assimilation with Russia. The buck stops with him.

Some aspects of the EU are more successful than others. The refugee crises have seen tensions, whereas the single market has been quite successful. One only has to see the difficulties that British trade experiences now, and worsening British political divisions over immigration to see what happens without the single market. Not to mention the weaker hand the UK now has when negotiatings third party deals.

Le Pen may have some right wing social policies but is left/socialist with respect to taxation, protectionism, and preferring a large state sector.

You have a patch on one eye and are blind in the other imho. What did Putin try when Trump was President? Trump who called bull**** on NATO? Under Obama Putin shot down an airliner and invaded Crimea. The minute Trump is gone Putin walks into Ukraine. Biden's foreign policy could be described as a disaster...or a windfall for those who profited. I'm no fan of Trump, but it is undeniable that he is not part of the evil "club" that feeds on stoking conflict, war and destruction, while smiling benevolently with inclusive indulgence.

A friend with family in Sweden described to me the disaster that has resulted from taking in thousands of young male refugees. A similar story from a friend with family in Holland. Fit, healthy young males that don't arrive with a toolbox was how my Dutch mate described them. Not vulnerable women and children.

There is a deep underlying evil at play, and corrupt Ukraine and US corporate interests are hoovering up billions of US and EU funds.

[Bjauck]

You have a patch on one eye and are blind in the other imho. What did Putin try when Trump was President? Trump who called bull**** on NATO? Under Obama Putin shot down an airliner and invaded Crimea. The minute Trump is gone Putin walks into Ukraine. Biden's foreign policy could be described as a disaster...or a windfall for those who profited. I'm no fan of Trump, but it is undeniable that he is not part of the evil "club" that feeds on stoking conflict, war and destruction, while smiling benevolently with inclusive indulgence.

A friend with family in Sweden described to me the disaster that has resulted from taking in thousands of young male refugees. A similar story from a friend with family in Holland. Fit, healthy young males that don't arrive with a toolbox was how my Dutch mate described them. Not vulnerable women and children.

There is a deep underlying evil at play, and corrupt Ukraine and US corporate interests are hoovering up billions of US and EU funds. Apoligies, but I don’t understand your reply.

Are you saying that Putin only attacked Ukraine because of Biden? That Putin’s invasion and slaughter are the fault of Biden, US and Ukraine corporates? If so, to me it seems like an incredible attempt to switch blame and responsibility.

Should Ukraine have surrendered to its Invader? Should the west have allowed borders to have been rewritten as the result of a dictator’s invading armies?

[Panda-NZ-]

Trump and co want an expensive war with China though, involving American troops.

How are you going to do that with a strong russian empire that now has a Ukranian puppet state amongst it's collection. Instead of being suppressed by a mere $100b in aid which is great value for money with no western direct involvement.

I don't think the KGB/FSB or the russian population would tolerate another 4 years of stalemate in Ukraine if Biden wins. Putin is as good as gone unless there's a trump win.

[jonu]

Apoligies, but I don’t understand your reply.

Are you saying that Putin only attacked Ukraine because of Biden? That Putin’s invasion and slaughter are the fault of Biden, US and Ukraine corporates? Should Ukraine have surrendered to its Invader? Should the west have allowed borders to have been rewritten as the result of a dictator’s invading armies? If so, to me it seems like an incredible attempt to switch blame and responsibility.

Putin invaded Ukraine at least in part due to Nato pushing ever closer to Russia's borders. The war mongers in the US were very happy for him to do so. Ukraine would not need to surrender to someone that didn't invade. Ukraine was the most corrupt country in Europe. No one knows where the majority of the military aid is ending up. More arms in the wrong hands, the better for business. Just another war brewing to erupt. It hasn't stopped since Korea in the 50s. Trump isn't in the club. Biden, the Clintons and the Bush family most definitely are. You'd have to assume Obama as well. It's not a Republican vs Democrat thing.

Why do you think the US invaded Iraq when it had nothing to do with 9/11?

[Panda-NZ-]

Putin invaded Ukraine at least in part due to Nato pushing ever closer to Russia's borders.

No it was to distract from local issues (particuarly the handling of the corona virus, pension reform and the rise of liberal politicians like Navalny).

NATO is a voluntary defensive pact, not an empire.

[Bjauck]

No it was to distract from local issues (particuarly the handling of the corona virus, pension reform and the rise of liberal politicians like Navalny).

NATO is a voluntary defensive pact, not an empire. Putin also casts himself as a Peter The Great taking back historic Russian lands. NATO and Ukrainian Nazis were an excuse.

[iceman]

What are the EU rules that are objectionable, and how do they differ from what the UK has, or Canada, or NZ? They have stringent health and safety, and food standards. However I fail to see how those are a bad thing for people.

I think some of the European nationalist parties toned down their plans to leave the EU in the wake of Brexit and its problems for the UK. Policies sometimes change when a Party actually takes the reins of government.

I am not going to start counting them up here. It would simply take too long. But I will give you one small example. My old country, even though its not in the EU but is in EFTA so belongs to the EEA (European Economic Area) and therefore needs to implement a whole lot of crazy rules. One of them is that our Search & Rescue teams all over the country, manned by volunteers and spending most of their time rescuing ill prepared tourists, have historically fundraised by women in the towns and villages donating homemade food, cookies and various knitted clothing that they then sell. A few years ago the S&R teams were banned from selling any food unless it came from a certified kitchen (rules from Brussels they were forced to implement), due to how dangerous it apparently was to sell food from home kitchens.
If I had the time and enthusiasm, I could write up a never ending list of EU madness. People have had enough, as the election results are clearly showing.

[Panda-NZ-]

Putin also casts himself as a Peter The Great taking back historic Russian lands. NATO and Ukrainian Nazis were an excuse.

Yes a far-right cabal, led by a jewish PM, has taken over Ukraine (ie, been elected fairly). We must act.

What do two "Z"'s represent when one of them is flipped 180 degrees.

[Bjauck]

I am not going to start counting them up here. It would simply take too long. But I will give you one small example. My old country, even though its not in the EU but is in EFTA so belongs to the EEA (European Economic Area) and therefore needs to implement a whole lot of crazy rules. One of them is that our Search & Rescue teams all over the country, manned by volunteers and spending most of their time rescuing ill prepared tourists, have historically fundraised by women in the towns and villages donating homemade food, cookies and various knitted clothing that they then sell. A few years ago the S&R teams were banned from selling any food unless it came from a certified kitchen (rules from Brussels they were forced to implement), due to how dangerous it apparently was to sell food from home kitchens.
If I had the time and enthusiasm, I could write up a never ending list of EU madness. People have had enough, as the election results are clearly showing.
After major events such as wars and epidemics there is often a swing against incumbents. However Pro EU parties still dominate. In the UK election it is likely there will be a massive swing against their most right wing govt in post war times that delivered Brexit.

I do not know the comparative food poisoning rates. However I think NZ has one of the highest rates of campylobacter in the developed world. How do the EU fundraising food standards for public safety policies differ from NZ’s requirements as listed here: https://www.mpi.govt.nz/food-business/starting-a-food-business/exemptions-from-the-food-act/fundraising-and-community-event-food-safety-rules/#:~:text=You%20can%20sell%20food%20to,is%20%22safe %20and%20suitable%22.

[blackcap]

I am not going to start counting them up here. It would simply take too long. But I will give you one small example. My old country, even though its not in the EU but is in EFTA so belongs to the EEA (European Economic Area) and therefore needs to implement a whole lot of crazy rules. One of them is that our Search & Rescue teams all over the country, manned by volunteers and spending most of their time rescuing ill prepared tourists, have historically fundraised by women in the towns and villages donating homemade food, cookies and various knitted clothing that they then sell. A few years ago the S&R teams were banned from selling any food unless it came from a certified kitchen (rules from Brussels they were forced to implement), due to how dangerous it apparently was to sell food from home kitchens.
If I had the time and enthusiasm, I could write up a never ending list of EU madness. People have had enough, as the election results are clearly showing.

This.

Applies to the country I am still resident of as well. People are fed up with Brussels and would like nothing more than the lot of them are hung.

[blackcap]

Yes a far-right cabal, led by a jewish PM, has taken over Ukraine (ie, been elected fairly). We must act.

What do two "Z"'s represent when one of them is flipped 180 degrees.

I don't believe Zelensky is currently elected. He is now a dictator.

[Panda-NZ-]

I don't believe Zelensky is currently elected. He is now a dictator.

How can you have an election when part of your territory is occupied by Russia?

[Bjauck]

How can you have an election when part of your territory is occupied by Russia?
The UK postponed its elections during the world wars. So there was a gap of 8 years because of WW1 and 10 years because of WW2. After WW2 the election saw the right wing party led by Churchill chucked out. When you are dealing with a mad rampaging dictator, that becomes a priority. Churchill formed a coalition with the opposition during the war.

[Bjauck]

This.

Applies to the country I am still resident of as well. People are fed up with Brussels and would like nothing more than the lot of them are hung. Well if the people feel that strongly they should campaign for an Exit Partty and convince their fellow electors to follow the shining light of the UK. In the meantime, All member countries appoint commissioners and MPs so have a say in policy and have a veto.

[iceman]

Well if the people feel that strongly they should campaign for an Exit Partty and convince their fellow electors to follow the shining light of the UK. In the meantime, All member countries appoint commissioners and MPs so have a say in policy and have a veto.

This is where I disagree with you. I think there is very little appetite for EXITS in most European countries but people want a change of course. Immigration and The Green Deal is what people are mainly revolting against. That's what they are saying in the elections.

Meloni for example has not mentioned exiting the EU since she became PM and has moderated her most contentious policies and is now well liked and constructive on the European scene.. She is reading the room well and is rising in popularity. https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/06/10/epp-wont-seek-formal-deal-with-meloni-says-secretary-general-but-case-by-case-work-is-poss

I expect the same from all of the ridiculously called "far right" parties that are now coming to power or at least significantly increased strength in numbers. There are already suggestions from LePen's party that Jordan Bardella who lead them in the EU elections will be their PM candidate, not LePen. Maybe she is reading the room right as well !!

[Bjauck]

This is where I disagree with you. I think there is very little appetite for EXITS in most European countries but people want a change of course. Immigration and The Green Deal is what people are mainly revolting against. That's what they are saying in the elections.

Meloni for example has not mentioned exiting the EU since she became PM and has moderated her most contentious policies and is now well liked and constructive on the European scene.. She is reading the room well and is rising in popularity. https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/06/10/epp-wont-seek-formal-deal-with-meloni-says-secretary-general-but-case-by-case-work-is-poss

I expect the same from all of the ridiculously called "far right" parties that are now coming to power or at least significantly increased strength in numbers. There are already suggestions from LePen's party that Jordan Bardella who lead them in the EU elections will be their PM candidate, not LePen. Maybe she is reading the room right as well !! I agree with that approach. Brexit was a wake-up event for other Nationalist Parties. However the sentiments towards the EU relayed by Blackcap seemed so horrifically extreme.

[Panda-NZ-]

The EU politicians responding to the result speak like university lecturers spreading ideals from the comfort of large salaries & far removed from refugee resettlement areas. They always have though. When they speak more like real people they will do better.

I think even nationalists recognise the value of the EU in a world vs China and the US though.

It's only one area- but they see the weak trade deals for instance the UK has signed. It will be like that, but even worse for their own countries since the UK is still on paper, relatively strong for a small/micro world player.

[Bjauck]

The EU politicians responding the result speak like university lecturers spreading ideals with the comfort of large salaries and far removed from refugee resettlement areas. They always have though. When they speak more like real people they will do better.

I think even nationalists recognise the value of the EU in a world vs China and the US though.

In one area - but they see the weak trade deals for instance the UK has signed. It will be like that, but even worse for them since the UK is still on paper, relatively strong for a small / micro world player.

Britain is a diminished power outside of the EU. With the UK in the EU, the USA used the UK as leverage for its policies as a counter against France and Germany. The nations of the EU also considered the UK as a conduit to the USA, Outside the EU, the UK is just a junior partner of the USA with precious little extra leverage. The UK no longer punches above its weight.

Now the UK basically follows either The EU or USA with respect to global issues. The USA is probably starting to regard Germany and France as its main allies in Europe, rather than the UK.

I would rank the UK as similar to Australia with respect to international influence.

[Bjauck]

Put to one side whether the EU has too stringent a set of Food standards. As the UK Tories prioritised leaving the EU - and thereby making importing food from its biggest supplier more difficult - it oversaw a steep growth of food banks and food insecurity. Children turn up at school in poor physical shape to be able to learn. Did the Tories want to make the people so desperate that they would be only too happy to accept hormone injected meat from America?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2024/jun/11/how-britain-became-a-food-bank-nation

[blackcap]

I agree with that approach. Brexit was a wake-up event for other Nationalist Parties. However the sentiments towards the EU relayed by Blackcap seemed so horrifically extreme.

The reason I am so fed up with the EU is because they keep ignoring ordinary people and what people want. They come from a we know best, arrogant approach. Time for change is over, and its time to get rid of this bloated behemoth.

For the record, I would rather be "far right" than far wrong.

[Bjauck]

Farage’s party is just about neck-and neck now with the Conservatives. Labour is well ahead but will Farage become leader of the opposition?

Campaign speech from Farage.

https://www.youtube.com/live/U7OoqIs-cAQ?si=4u4TcbzdFoP4rLYj

1% point behind The Conservatives.
https://news.sky.com/video/reform-uk-move-within-one-point-of-tories-in-new-poll-13151549

[Bjauck]

The reason I am so fed up with the EU is because they keep ignoring ordinary people and what people want. They come from a we know best, arrogant approach. Time for change is over, and its time to get rid of this bloated behemoth.

For the record, I would rather be "far right" than far wrong. Some of the nationalists Parties are only far right in some respects - Farage’s party may be one of the most right wing of the nationalist parties in Europe.

[davflaws]

This.

Applies to the country I am still resident of as well. People are fed up with Brussels and would like nothing more than the lot of them are hung.

So are they proposing well stretched hemp and a clean cervical severance, or is it the fascist piano wire and painful strangulation? Should they get a trial first, or just be sent straight to the camps?

The really scary bit is the prospect that one day, you and your ACT mates might get some real power.

[blackcap]

So are they proposing well stretched hemp and a clean cervical severance, or is it the fascist piano wire and painful strangulation? Should they get a trial first, or just be sent straight to the camps?

The really scary bit is the prospect that one day, you and your ACT mates might get some real power.

Metaphorically hung. Not the drawn and quartered kind.

If ACT and my mates as you call them (actually I don't really like ACT that much and did not vote for them) ever get real power... why do you think that would be?

[davflaws]

Metaphorically hung. Not the drawn and quartered kind.

If ACT and my mates as you call them (actually I don't really like ACT that much and did not vote for them) ever get real power... why do you think that would be?

I'm pleased your "hung' was rhetorical. I guess my reaction related to your question. So here goes! (I don't know if you wanted a rave - but because I have 'manflu' and am 'resting' you're gonna get one!)

My 'model of the world' contains some basic assumptions.

We need to produce and distribute goods and services and we have a technologically based social system that does that very effectively.

Worldwide, over the last hundred years liberal democracies have proved the best way of establishing and maintaining that system.

Centre-left and Centre-right Parties both seem to work, although the Scandinavian experience and the "Spirit Level" research convinces me that Centre-left policies produce more equal distribution of wealth and more happiness in consequence than Centre-right.

Extreme left and Extreme right policies don't seem to produce very good results in terms of either production or distribution.

But the centre (left or right) is boring, doesn't get clicks, capture eyeballs, raise heartrates, flood the amygdala with hormones (Google Robert Sapolsky), or engage any algorithm.

We have seen/are seeing the extreme right making gains all over the world. They have historically done so by mastering newly available communication technology, and using it to appeal to and activate some very basic and primal emotional responses. Hitler rose with radio. Modern politicians on the extreme right use social media incredibly skillfully.

But in spite of a lot of rhetoric, extreme right parties are in fact very prone to destroy the institutions that keep the society boring and stable blah de blah, and they slip into autocracy, and perhaps from there into fascism.

And we all have a socially toxic cauldron of fear, anger, envy, rage, lust blah de blah simmering inside our brains - ready to boil over and encourage us to find reasons to follow any party (left or right) that can turn up the heat.

We shared a common ancestor with the chimps only 6M years ago. We became successful hunter/gatherers and started on the path to tool using, language development blah de blah with selection for cooperation. You will never see two chimps carrying a log.

Development of agriculture and surplus calories allowed settled populations, explosion in numbers, and the 'rise of civilisation', and 'science' and the technology it produced has allowed humans to dominate the planet.

It seems to me ironic that we have reached a point where the very boring cenrist technocratic social democratic system and institutions we depend on to keep our societies running smoothly are again under threat from the use of the technology it has produced successfully activating our brain stems.

The extreme right will only get real power in NZ via the ballot box. They can increase their share of the vote by turning up the heat under the cauldron and tapping into our brainstems. We have got a pretty strong propensity to identify, isolate and blame the 'others'. The ones who are different from us. If you want the words- look at some of Balance's posts.

It has been pretty successful this election cycle. If ACT can cannibalise NZF and the right wing of the Nats, it will do even better.