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View Full Version : Are Forsyth Barr crooks ?



cdt18
16-04-2005, 04:45 PM
Every float these guys touch turns to custard. Look at Feltex. They were also involved in Wakefield hospital and the same thing happened. Everything turned to custards 6 months after the float. They always say "we are doing everything we can" but ultimately they know they are not accountable & they don't give a toss.

Their stratergy is to just pump up the price of the intial float value as they get a % of the price. Then, its the next joes problem.

Capitalist
16-04-2005, 04:50 PM
Yeah the brokers are always the whipping boys for investor's incompetence and greed. I did a thread about it a while ago - Moral Hazard and the IPO http://sharetrader.co.nz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19932

Stop blaming brokers for your incompetence. A broker isn't a substitute for your brain - or is he? You people need to take some personal responsibility.

Longtack
16-04-2005, 04:50 PM
They are recommending TEL,FTX,INL,FBL,THL. All long-term plays until, the fundamentals change, I assume.

Longtack
16-04-2005, 05:11 PM
Howdy Cap' - nice to have your Drambuie-like tones on ST again.;)
I tend to agree with you on IPOs. Any take on the da Bro's comments?

Capitalist
16-04-2005, 05:37 PM
It's because of intellectually dishonest people like you David Renwick, that I am not interested in sharing my views here.

[u]Addendum</u>: I am sick and tired of people pretending to be benevolent to me and insulting me behind my back. Rather they think it is behind my back. You don't fool me - I have known you have been Longtack for some time. Stolwyk did the same thing, but at least he didn't bother with an alias. I don't deserve it. Goodbye.

halcyon9
16-04-2005, 06:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by cdt18



Their stratergy is to just pump up the price of the intial float value as they get a % of the price. Then, its the next joes problem.








a bit like most sharetraders eh;).....one of Stollis pump and dump 101s

actually, I think FB have one of the BEST records in the brokers picks

CAP is correct......whipping boys

:D

halcyon9
16-04-2005, 06:47 PM
and dont even bother to argue................

with your stupid little quips or retorts




YOU KNOW C9 IS RIGHT, AS ALWAYS

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Cooper
16-04-2005, 08:29 PM
I agree. Forsyth Barr is my brokerage firm, and apart from two bad calls (WHS and FTX) where they relied too heavily on the feedback from the companies themselves, they have recommended some good stocks in a timely manner.

Recommendations are, surprisingly, recommendations. You as an investor are supposed to look at the recommendations and then weigh up the pros and cons. If you're too bloody stupid to do your own thinking then no brokerage firm in the world will meet your criteria. I have made some good money off ForBarr recommendations, but I still make sure that the final decision is mine.

It's also interesting that this post has started since the market correction. Has someone been caught short and is looking for a scapegoat?

Forsyth Barr have a vested interest in making sure they maintain a customer base, and being a crooked firm would not do this.

roaddog
16-04-2005, 11:55 PM
DUDES,


Forsyth barr are one of the best brokerage firms [:p]:D:D



whats this site coming too calling Forsyth Barr crooks [V][V]

cdt18 dude with a statement like that you could be [xx(][xx(][xx(][:o)][:o)][:o)]

Greyhound
17-04-2005, 05:38 AM
I can't actually see cdt18 stating he/she actually bought any shares.He/she may be making an astute observation.

Halebop
17-04-2005, 11:40 AM
I agree Rocking. I personally prefer my own counsel over a brokers. However, since brokers like Forsyth Barr (and most others) sell themselves as "Full Service" firms, distancing themselves from the price advantage of dealing with Discount/Online brokers, what benefits do they provide for their "full" service?

The key here I'd have thought was to help me navigate through the investment minefield and hopefully avoid investing in Feltex's. Quite clearly the fat underwriting fees compromise their ability to articulate impartial advice. To me it was clear Feltex were being sold at the end of the cycle for a high price. In Forbarr's PR piece on their "shock and surprise" they didn't express any opinion about the fundamentals. They are trying to be far too clever and should suffer for it. Unfortunately, the types of people who took their high priced FTX shares in the first place will probably queue gratefully at Forbarr's doors for the safety of Vector shares.

Lizard
17-04-2005, 01:35 PM
One difficulty I see with ALL advisors is that it is very difficult for any advisor to give advice AGAINST a company. Even small companies will threaten legal action over the vaguest "incorrect" statement when an advisor chooses to pour scorn over their offerings. The time and expense in dealing with these threats is such that virtually ALL advisors soon give up on criticism in favour of only reporting the positive. Erring on the side of being positive or neutral is much less likely to provoke legal action from the clients for whom they work.

The biggest step forward we could make would be to provide market commentators and advisors with a greater degree of protection against legal claim by companies so they are willing to point out the bad as well as the good.

Bling_Bling
17-04-2005, 01:46 PM
If these advisors are as good as they say, they will be like some of us on ST, retired with enough cash to play the market and not need to work. Think about it. Anyway, nothing is 100%. Stop moaning. This place is worst then Coronation St.

TerryA
17-04-2005, 02:00 PM
&gt;&gt;This place is worst then Coronation St&lt;&lt;

Impossible

Cooper
17-04-2005, 03:15 PM
While I agree that a brokerage firm should attempt to make sure at all times that the information on companies they are analysing should be as accurate and correct as possible, I think that this is where their responsibility ends.

If brokerage firms were able to be totally accurate then the valuations of one company would not vary depending on the brokerage firm you ask, but the valuations are very different... it's not an exact science. That should be the first acknowledgement of any investor... you can't simply wait for the broker to tell you what to buy, how much, and when.

If people want someone else to have total control over their equity investments, they buy into managed funds. Again, the onus is on the individual investor to look at the analysis done by a brokerage firm and consider this as part of their reasoning behind an investment decision. As the investor themselves are the entity making the ultimate decision whether to act or not on the available advice, I believe they must also accept the ultimate responsibility of these decisions.

If not, at what point is the line drawn? Are brokerage firms also to be blamed for not having coverage on companies that subsequently have a dramatic appreciation in share price? If they are to be blamed for mistaken coverage, are they also to be blamed for making the mistake of not covering a company? (No NOG holders need answer that question...)

I would expect that the damage done to a company's reputation from recommending a company like FTX would far outweigh the underwriting fees received, especially with the current state of affairs where full-brokerage firms are losing market share to low cost "no-frills" services. In fact a failure to properly look after it's current customers would impact on the likelihood of Forbarr receiving an invitation to underwrite a placement in the future... what company would want a brokerage firm with no customers to underwrite their IPO? It makes sense to me that Forbarr were as surprised as the rest of the market with FTX's sudden reduction in profit. It's also my understanding that once the IPO is done and dusted, the service Forbarr provided for FTX is over and the brokerage firm is therefore free from the conflict of interest of covering a company from which it is getting revenue.

Personally speaking, as a custy of Forbarr I prefer the full brokerage service because I can have access to their research (flawed as it may be in the FTX instance), I can have access to IPO's, I can use the expertise and knowledge of my broker when I require it (and he and I both realise that there is a limit to the responsibilty he has over my decisions) and I can pass on certain undertakings which are performed more efficiently by a brokerage firm (sell that, and that, and that, and buy so much of that, making up any shortfall from my cash account, thanks a lot). My broker is a great help because he feels free to question my decisions and provide advice which he thinks is applicable to me, but as I'm the person who best knows the various factors important in making investment decisions I am also the one to best make the final decision and accept final responsibility.

In the end it all depends on exactly what kind of service you think you're getting from a full service broker. If I was paying for another party to take full responsibility for my equity decisions things would be great... I could make a whole list of mistakes as long as I was acting on someone else's advice, and it wouldn't be my mistake at all. Life would be just dandy. But who would be a broker?

Longtack
17-04-2005, 03:18 PM
Capitalist Posted - 16/04/2005 : 6:37:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's because of intellectually dishonest people like you David Renwick, that I am not interested in sharing my views here.

Oh well that's your choice Cap but a couple of things:
I don't always have to justify myself to you, and intellect can be a movable feast. I've been happy to openly criticise your haughty ideas on your blog (using my name)

Addendum: I am sick and tired of people pretending to be benevolent to me and insulting me behind my back.
Rather they think it is behind my back. You don't fool me - I have known you have been Longtack for some time. I plays it how I sees it, whatever hat I'm wearing. Stolwyk did the same thing, but at least he didn't bother with an alias. I don't deserve it. You're a complex woman Cap' but latterly you've become more amusing, particularly since you stated that you're "influential." Does this mean you're going to transform me into a newt? Goodbye. Heard it before and I don't believe that anything I'd say would silence you - fortunately.

17-04-2005, 03:56 PM
ROCK where did you copy this from,, this is NOT you TALKING,, come on own UP.. ;);)

Cooper
17-04-2005, 04:02 PM
So, from where I sit we have identified three retail markets...

1) The "Rocking/Halebop" market where the only brokerage service is the actual brokering of equity sales and purchases, nothing else. The customer accepts all other responsibility.

2) The "Cooper" market where the customer wants the standard brokerage service, plus additional services dealing with cash management, research, and the ocassional pointing out of stupid errors on the customer's part, including "fatfingering" an extra zero into that last buy order. The customer accepts responsibility for the final decision, but assimilates brokerage research into these decisions.

3) The "Whatmeworry?" market where the customer wants the brokerage firm to purchase and sell equities, research the companies and provide guidance and make recommendations based on the personal situation of the individual, and by doing so the broker assumes responsibility for these decisions.


I see your point, and I also understand that because my own needs are different from Ma and Pa I can't transfer my own expectations of a broker's service onto them. But given the inability of the brokerage firm to guarantee that their recommendations are anything but guesstimates, I would argue that there is in fact no third market. There is no-one who would be willing to provide the service because it would not be a feasible service to provide.

17-04-2005, 04:03 PM
quote:Originally posted by rocking

[quote]Originally posted by THE KING

ROCK where did you copy this from,, this is NOT you TALKING,, come on own UP.. ;);)


Sure. UP.

OWN UP OR SHUT UP.. ;);)

Cooper
17-04-2005, 04:05 PM
quote:Originally posted by rocking


quote:Originally posted by THE KING

ROCK where did you copy this from,, this is NOT you TALKING,, come on own UP.. ;);)


Sure. UP.




If you're looking to own UP, I should warn you that Forbarr have no coverage on UP and that purchasing UP for your own personal ownership will be your responsibility alone.

Cooper
17-04-2005, 04:24 PM
quote:Originally posted by rocking
It is not about “total accuracy”. It’s about reasonable, honest, and prudent advice. The odd mistake is inevitable. But the scope for oddity should be circumscribed by penalties.




Actually I very much agree with your point here. But having, say, the NZX issue penalties for inaccurate coverage would be a factor which would negatively influence the quality of research we get. I can only see such penalties happening within the brokerage firm itself (the gentleman who researched FTX has his name at the bottom of each research sheet, and I wonder what kind of penalty he will get). But FB had all of the information that was available to the rest of the market and they could argue that the fault lay with FTX's own announcements. So Forbarr could argue that the cost, which was a result of FTX's poor guidance, was incurred by both Forbarr and FTX holders.

Cooper
17-04-2005, 04:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by rocking


quote:So, from where I sit we have identified three retail markets...

If there is a god, please save us from students. They get far too much fun out of analysing old age pensioners to death.

That may suit government fiscal policies, but it doesn't suit old age pensioners.

Cooper has convinced me there is an afterlife.

I SHALL HAUNT HIM.




As a yoof I take being serious very seriously. It's only later in life that I'll realise that being earnest is an invitation for a punch in the mouth, and then I'll stop.

Cooper
17-04-2005, 04:41 PM
quote:Originally posted by rocking


quote:There is no-one who would be willing to provide the service because it would not be a feasible service to provide.

And, who does that suit?


I would imagine the brokers are actually servicing both customer group two and customer group three. So they are therefore servicing customers for which they incur different costs, for the same price (ignoring such things as private portfolio management). Because the group two is demanding less of a service than group three, but paying for part of group three's extra service, they are over-paying. Group three is demanding extra service, but not paying for it's full value as the costs are standardised over group two and three. Therefore group two is paying too much, group three is not paying the full cost of the services they demand and the brokerage firm is missing the possible extra revenue of tiered pricing whilst also pushing group two clients towards group one services because the prices for group two customers are inflated.

So it suits group one service providers, and group three service demanders.

Cooper
17-04-2005, 04:43 PM
quote:Originally posted by rocking


quote:It's only later in life that I'll realise that being earnest is an invitation for a punch in the mouth, and then I'll stop.


Bad call. You'll have got it wrong.



That realisation comes later though... I don't want to get too far ahead of myself.

Cooper
17-04-2005, 04:58 PM
A virtue Montgomery had as well, according to Patton... except for that whole Arnhem rigmarole of course.
Perhaps FTX could learn from them... "A cautious approach over an optimistic one means that dissappointments are, if not planned for, at least lessened" (Cooper, 2005). Forbarr could also learn... "Check your intelligence, in fact make sure it is just that and not a contradiction of the word" (Cooper, 2005).

All rights reserved.

Edit: Apologies to anyone who has actually said that before. You probably forgot to reserve all of your rights.

Bling_Bling
17-04-2005, 05:51 PM
quote:Originally posted by rocking


quote:Originally posted by Bling_Bling

If these advisors are as good as they say, they will be like some of us on ST, retired with enough cash to play the market and not need to work. Think about it. Anyway, nothing is 100%. Stop moaning. This place is worst then Coronation St.


Confused b*tching. The most profitable kind.

BTW, I just read Coro St is the thinking person's soup.

But my eyesight's not as good as it was.



If I wanted *****ing, I would email my wife and not visit ST. :D

If all full service brokerage firms are correct in their analysis, then all, if not most investors would be winners and there wont be losers.

Halebop
17-04-2005, 07:53 PM
Personally my agrument about full service firms was not that they should always be right in the recommendations. Obviously this can't be achieved. However, when a broker accepts an underwriting arrangement how often does their research subsequently support the valuation with a strong "BUY" recommendation? And yet we know from research that floats in general underperform the market in general.

So is broker research worse than average? I'd be surprised if this was the case - these researchers have a full time job at it. They might definately be average but surely they can't be consistently worse than average?

So if broker research is not worse than average but float performance is then what is going wrong? The logical excercise is to follow the money and this leads us to the fees on underwriting floats. If someone is willing or culpible of matching their glowing numbers & accolades via flawed research to meet their underwriting commitments they should not be entitled to clip my or your money in the process.

Buffett eshews floats for a number of reasons revolving around valuation and history but I would add "Moral Risk" to the mix too.

Placebo
18-04-2005, 09:50 AM
I remember having a chat with a Forbarr advisor when I was first looking at investing in the market. He listened to what I had in mind and then talked about a couple of companies I hadn't even considered, Hellaby Holdings (which I had never heard of) and Tranz Rail. At the time TRH had a very murky future, it had announced its intention to focus on freight but Toll were a long way over the horizon. It had terrible PR issues and was being badly run down.

I regret not taking either piece of advice. TRH ended up being one of the best buys of that year (I think 2003); and Hellaby has just gone up and up. I left the meeting thinking the guy was an idiot -- but now regret not taking the advice. So they aren't all bad.

Re comments about changing recommendations (and I'd echo the comment about them being JUST recommendations), I think brokers are no different to normal people (in fact, I suspect some of them might even be normal :D). The Forbarr analysts put their names to research papers, so we know who they are, in effect they stake their reputation on what they write. It's hard to admit you are wrong -- that's only human nature -- so I don't expect brokers/analysts to radically alter their thinking on particular companies, even when the writing is well and truly on the wall. Forbarr was particularly slow to change its mind over WHS, this wasn't a good look for them but as they had put so much energy into expressing confidence in it I do understand how they can be slow to turn around.

One other comment. In any IPO (or indeed in any analysis) it's likely the analysts will have access to a lot of information that isn't in the public domain. How they choose to use it (and this includes looking at risks to themselves of the way they use it) ultimately impacts on the investing public's confidence in them. After all, these companies have a reputation to make and protect too. It would be incredibly short-sighted to look to make a few extra dollars on a float at the risk to its long-term business.

Disc: Forsooth Bore is my current brokerage.

James K
18-04-2005, 12:12 PM
A lot of people seem to be trotting out the "brokers just give advice" line. If they pretend to be experts, their advice should be subject to quality assessment like that of other experts (like doctors, etc, despite the flaws in the review process). If their advice leads to harm, they should be held to account if their actions were improper, ill-considered etc. Huge legal claims in the UK of financial advisor "mis-selling".

But brokers don't always just "give advice". In some cases, they manage portfolios on behalf of others. They make the buy sell/hold decisions, when what and how. They earn both a management fee and the buy/sell broker commissions.

ForBarr "managed" a sizeable portfolio for a relative of mine. It was a disgrace. I am loathe to call them crooks, but some armed robberies net less, and cause less financial harm, than ForBarr did.

I advised my relative to invest without ForBarr - transfer all the shares to a personal name and sit tight. The results have been massively better, costs were obliterated, and ForBarr presumably went looking for another victim.

Disc. Not a broker, nor am I associated with any broker.

Cooper
18-04-2005, 03:01 PM
My sympathies go out to your relative, James K... I'm assuming they went for the "private portfolio management service" which Forbarr offer, which would subsequently mean that they had a fair bit of money involved. I would hesitate to make a judgement based on the info you've passed on but I hope your relative was vocal in their criticism to Forbarr. They need to be accountable when the service offered doesn't match the service delivered.

Rocking: Have only been investing for three years but I guess I was lucky enough to have fiscally ultra-conservative parents who drummed the negatives of sharemarket investment into me. Therefore the basis for my decisions are critical to begin with. I know not to take anything at face value, but apart from that I still make some amazingly stupid mistakes (sometimes despite knowing better) so I would not want to convey the idea of myself being a market savvy investor. I know enough to know that I, or even experts, don't know it all (to modify the point Socrates made). I've also learnt (as Placebo has said) that when Forbarr claim a company is a "buy" it's worth taking a hard look. My broker has also put me onto some gems, as I've mentioned earlier.

Halebop: point taken and well made... there's an obvious conflict of interest and as far as I know Forbarr (or any brokerage) do not either hold back from making recommendations or admit to underwriting the company's IPO in their research or recommendations. Obviously they have an interest in ensuring the stock is taken up. There might also be a bit of moral hazard involved in that they can submit overly optimistic coverage to the market, and then throw their hands up and avoid responsibility for the coverage when it subsequently proves wrong... they can dodge responsibility BECAUSE of their ability to point to the vagaries of the market as a way of deflecting criticism of their coverage. As Placebo says, the analyst is staking the reputation of themselves and the company on the line though. Whether that is enough to dissuade the broker, I really don't know. I would hope that the triple restraints of morality, a desire to maintain the customer base that they rely on for both their brokerage fees and ultimately their underwriting fees, and the possibility of legal trouble would be enough.

Someone from Forbarr might like to step up now and comment on the whole affair, if they are indeed able to make comments on this site.

Winston
06-08-2010, 09:05 AM
My experience with Forsyth Barr is similar to that described by James K and I have since met several others who are in a similar position. I was severely injured in a major accident eight years ago and had to sell my business. I put my life savings in a managed portfolio with the written instructions to invest for security and specifically stated that I did not require growth.
Forsyth Barr put my money in 'Credit Sail', Feltex, South Canterbury Finance Pref. shares, Babcock & Brown, Kermadec Property Fund, Silver Ferm Farms and Rural Property Investments etc. They charged me $10,000 per year to manage my portfolio and it has halved in value.

winner69
06-08-2010, 09:34 AM
My experience with Forsyth Barr is similar to that described by James K and I have since met several others who are in a similar position. I was severely injured in a major accident eight years ago and had to sell my business. I put my life savings in a managed portfolio with the written instructions to invest for security and specifically stated that I did not require growth.
Forsyth Barr put my money in 'Credit Sail', Feltex, South Canterbury Finance Pref. shares, Babcock & Brown, Kermadec Property Fund, Silver Ferm Farms and Rural Property Investments etc. They charged me $10,000 per year to manage my portfolio and it has halved in value.

Not a good story there Winston ... a positive is that the portfolio obviously was diversified enough that you still have half left .... but it is the fees that are a killer eh .... but all this is what makes the financial markets work .... without your hard earned cash to play around with and clipping the bus ticket several times on the way through the likes of Forbar would not exist eh

h2so4
06-08-2010, 09:42 AM
Hi Winston

WELCOME:D

It's a common enough experience to lose half your portfolio even without the help of experts. Work through your emotions anger, revenge whatever and then forget it. I would encourage you to take your investing decisions into your own hands. You can make it back even without so called experts.:)

Lizard
06-08-2010, 09:54 AM
They have been good with my mother. Historically, she has always been a term deposit investor, but started taking their advice 9 years ago after my father died. The funds have never been under their management, only advice, so no fees, just brokerage/commissions. The only finance coy they put her into on which she has lost money on was a small Strategic debenture. All the rest of the investments are intact and have returned her a few % more than she might have managed for herself by shopping around the term deposit market. Maybe overall not much better off, but a lot better off than most of her peers.

In the end, suspect it comes down to which advisor you get and how conservatively you ask for it to be managed.

Silverlight
06-08-2010, 10:01 AM
Winston, make a complaint to NZX, http://www.nzx.com/market-supervision/complaints-procedures/

You have to first complain to the firm, that you believe the your funds have been mis-manged, if they do not resolve the issue, make a compaint to the NZX, maybe under Section 5 or Section 11 of the Participant Rules, have a read of the rules and see if you think your broker complied with the Rules.

The next step would be a complaint to the Sec Com.

percy
06-08-2010, 12:10 PM
[

In the end, suspect it comes down to which advisor you get and how conservatively you ask for it to be managed.[/QUOTE]

Yes I would agree with you Lizard.
I have heard similar stories about other brokering firms.
I am sure it pays allways to have shares in your own name and make your own investment decisions. I must admit the brokers I have dealt with have been most helpful.Trouble seems to be when firms become too large and brokers have to follow "the company" line.My broker will often find research on companies I am looking at,and allways tells me if he does not like a company I am looking at.The old saying "trust me I know how to make money" is allways a good warning.
Any broker who trys to get you to go and play golf "I will look after you". No thank you.Also should broker try to get you out of owning shares yourself and going into "their performance portfolio" is another no thank you.
I am sure sharetrader helps us all to reach finnancial independence.

dsurf
06-08-2010, 01:05 PM
Posted 16-04-2005


They are recommending TEL,FTX,INL,FBL,THL. All long-term plays until, the fundamentals change, I assume.

Not sure what the return on this "long term" portfolio would be at this point in time but with TEL & FTX in it does not look good. I recommend buying an octopus and keeping it in the bath and get a beer crate full of marbles.

Winston
07-08-2010, 09:06 AM
Thanks everyone for the helpfull comments. At this time I find myself agreeing with virtually everything said.
Regarding 'portfolio management' it does come down to the abilty of the manager. The person managing mine said that they specialised in 'rated securities'.
However, I now think that I understand why the quality investments which they did purchase for my portfolio (which I didn't list) were 'balanced' by the rubbish that I mentioned above.
Forsyth Barr received considerable uderwriting fees for many of these securities, knowing they could sell them by dumping them in their clients' managed portfolios. They sold securities (often of a better quality) out of the portfolio to make funds available for the purchase the 'product' that they were underwriting. They charged a commission on this sale transaction and also received a commission on the transaction of the new purchase . They then charged a fee for doing this management.
'Are Forsyth Barr crooks'. I suspect that this rort may be perfectly legal in New Zealand but many thanks for the information on how to do something about it.

h2so4
07-08-2010, 10:04 AM
Yup you got it.

The product of the day,week,month is the one that makes them the most commission. Funny how it usually fits everyones portfolio. If the product was life insurance you would have been sold that. Forsythbarr did the right thing by them. ;)

Hoop
07-08-2010, 06:46 PM
Posted 16-04-2005



Not sure what the return on this "long term" portfolio would be at this point in time but with TEL & FTX in it does not look good. I recommend buying an octopus and keeping it in the bath and get a beer crate full of marbles.

Breaking News:- Independent financial adviser found dead washed up on a Wellington beach. NZ Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10664332)
.
.
dsurf did you lose something :mellow:

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq306/Hoop_1/squid.jpg

dsurf
09-08-2010, 08:30 AM
very funny!

winner69
01-12-2010, 05:53 PM
Nice people work there

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10691355

Balance
01-12-2010, 06:44 PM
Nice people work there

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10691355

Picked on the wrong Asian driver? Them Koreans are bloody tough buggers, enduring several years of aggro military service and all are trained in tae-kwon-do. I have seen one took on several street kids in front of MacDonalds and he sent them packing.

manxman
01-12-2010, 06:44 PM
Couldn't agree more, that's exactly how it is.

Obviously from the last post some of the so called financial advisors at Forsyth Barr are not content just to f##k people over financially.

I once had an interview with the chief of the Auckland fraud squad. He explained that if you found a way of parting fools from their money that hadn't been used before 1924, then it was probably legal. Such was the antiquity of our legislation.

In the present case, assuming guilt. Starting point, three years. Mitigating factors - no previous form - less 25%.
Worked for fubar (habitual crim) + 50%. Considering the performance of the Judges superannuation scheme over the past few years, I would be surprised if they can find a judge who would not recuse himself/herself. He should be very afraid.

Lizard
01-12-2010, 07:07 PM
Guess Winston will find himself owning a whole lot of VHP shortly...

Beagle
02-12-2010, 10:15 AM
Worked for fubar (habitual crim) + 50%. .

That's Gold LOL.

Winston
10-12-2010, 07:45 AM
Guess Winston will find himself owning a whole lot of VHP shortly...


I am not sure what you are saying about VHP. I have not been watching the markets recently and was never that savy or I wouldn't have let a bunch of fraudsters manage my portfolio in the first place. ( It was when one of their 'team' was jailed for fraud that I realised that it was time for me to get out of there.)
I am interested in what you think. (But I don't own any.)

metro
04-01-2011, 07:19 AM
Interesting thread this one.

Two things: firstly,a quick browse of the Forsyth Barr website indicates that Mr Road Rage, Guy Hallwright still works for the firm - what do you actually need to do to get the sack from this firm? Yeah yeah I know, he was out of work hours, travelling privately etc etc but its a bad look.

And secondly (if my memory serves me correctly) about the same time I received a call from a broker at Forsyth Barr touting FTX and a broker from Jordan Sandman Smythe (JB Were) touting Pumpkin Patch (both new floats) and Im not quite sure whether I was hideously drunk or under the influence of other substances at the time but I chose FTX. To this day I can't believe my choice. Quickly realising my mistake I quickly sold the FTX and the damage was rather limited.

Since then I have never touched Forbar. Whilst the founders of the firm and managing principals are indeed honourable fellows and their sponsorship of Dunedin stadium admirable, if you felt the need to actually use a full service broker then, in my opinion look somewhere else

Disc: Not associated with any broker

Snow Leopard
04-01-2011, 08:09 AM
Interesting thread this one....

Metro, good to see you back.

regards
Paper Tiger

Winston
19-01-2011, 03:33 PM
Since then I have never touched Forbar. Whilst the founders of the firm and managing principals are indeed honourable fellows and their sponsorship of Dunedin stadium admirable, if you felt the need to actually use a full service broker then, in my opinion look somewhere else

Disc: Not associated with any broker


'So are they all, all honourable men-- '
I think Alan Hubbard actually is an honourable man. He seems to genuinely fail to understand that he was making charitable donations using other peoples money. People saw him doing good and lent S.C.F. etc their life savings. As long as the businesses continued to grow the complex book-keeping hid the true state of affairs.

However, a lot of former clients of Forsyth Barr have reason to believe that its owners are not as 'honourable' as their public persona implies. These victims of the firm know how Forbarr got its hands on a lot of their money when it was being managed in client portfolios.

But 'I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.'
The owners of Forbarr and their fellows ('and, sure, they are all honourable men') in the council and the legal system of a small town like Dunedin are perfectly capable of controlling all the outcomes of their actions, and they do not care that the powerless know this. It was really our money that ended up buying Forsyth Barrs name on the stadium.

Ironically, we may yet end up having the last laugh. We are watching to see how well these geniuses manage to control having their name associated with a total white elephant that has not yet been able to find a single paying customer. Meanwhile the council is doing its best to pay for this circus by cutting expenditure on the library!

Balance
13-10-2016, 08:45 AM
https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/appeal-court-knocks-back-feltex-shareholder-suit-b-195353#comment-732547

Seems like more action to follow yet.

percy
13-10-2016, 12:17 PM
https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/appeal-court-knocks-back-feltex-shareholder-suit-b-195353#comment-732547

Seems like more action to follow yet.

Nice to see Tony Gavigan and others pursuing this.
I was lucky to avoid this one,but think all involved should have known better,and have a lot to answer for.

whatsup
13-10-2016, 12:28 PM
Sad but true about these "types" is that ,"they would sell their father if they knew who he is " !

Lola
13-10-2016, 12:36 PM
https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/appeal-court-knocks-back-feltex-shareholder-suit-b-195353#comment-732547

Seems like more action to follow yet.

At the time of the issue a leading carpet industry icon said to me that ït was "the biggest pump and dump"he had ever seen.

Balance
28-02-2018, 10:27 AM
https://www.forsythbarr.co.nz/institutional-and-investment-banking/investment-banking/

Guess Forbar will be wanting to delete the reference to CBL Corporation being Finance Asia Best NZ Deal of 2015 for Forsyth Barr?

Adding to the long lists of dud deals done by the firm :

1. Feltex

2. Credit Sails

3. South Canterbury Finance

Guess Forbar will keep using that 'honey' rather than vinegar to pull in the punters?

winner69
28-02-2018, 10:49 AM
https://www.forsythbarr.co.nz/institutional-and-investment-banking/investment-banking/

Guess Forbar will be wanting to delete the reference to CBL Corporation being Finance Asia Best NZ Deal of 2015 for Forsyth Barr?

Adding to the long lists of dud deals done by the firm :

1. Feltex

2. Credit Sails

3. South Canterbury Finance

Guess Forbar will keep using that 'honey' rather than vinegar to pull in the punters?

I see Metro Glass got one of those Deals of the Year awards as well

minimoke
28-02-2018, 10:50 AM
https://www.forsythbarr.co.nz/institutional-and-investment-banking/investment-banking/

Guess Forbar will be wanting to delete the reference to CBL Corporation being Finance Asia Best NZ Deal of 2015 for Forsyth Barr?

Adding to the long lists of dud deals done by the firm :

1. Feltex

2. Credit Sails

3. South Canterbury Finance

Guess Forbar will keep using that 'honey' rather than vinegar to pull in the punters?
Strategic Finance

Babcock and Brown

Fletcher Building (a buy as at Nov 2017)

Fliway

bull....
28-02-2018, 11:16 AM
they got some good fees though

Balance
28-02-2018, 11:38 AM
they got some good fees though

Yes indeed.

Their clients pick up the booby prizes.

And some of them did not even know that they were being 'stuffed' with the duds!

"One retired man, who didn't want to be named, said investments were supposed to go into a conservative discretionary portfolio. In other words, Forsyth Barr chose the investments, providing they were low risk. But the firm placed $20,000 of his money in the high-risk Credit SaILS.

The investor found out about the loss via a letter from Forsyth Barr, telling him the value of the investment had plummeted to zero. Credit SaILS was among four investments removed from the portfolio within a year because they fell over.

Included were the high profile Feltex, Strategic Finance and Babcock & Brown failures.

"If you get three or four in a row, you really have to start questioning."

Operative word here - discretionary. Forsyth Barr made/makes the decisions which investment to go into the clients' portfolios.

Scooter
28-02-2018, 02:10 PM
Strategic Finance

Babcock and Brown

Fletcher Building (a buy as at Nov 2017)

Fliway

To be fair, Credit Sails was 2008, Strategic Finance was 2010, Babcock & Brown was 2009, and Fletcher was not a buy in November 2017, and Fliway was taken over at a higher price. I am sure they were not the only broker that did this sort of thing which is why the FMA were formed.

Balance
28-02-2018, 04:16 PM
To be fair, Credit Sails was 2008, Strategic Finance was 2010, Babcock & Brown was 2009, and Fletcher was not a buy in November 2017, and Fliway was taken over at a higher price. I am sure they were not the only broker that did this sort of thing which is why the FMA were formed.

CBL, Feltex, South Canterbury Finance, Credit Sails - that's a pretty impressive list of investments brought to the market by Forsyth Barr which went broke in a short time.

What is worse is that Forsyth Barr through its MD Neil Paviour-Smith actually tried to distance the firm from being an active promoter of Credit Sails but was caught bare-faced lying due to emails which led to the $60m settlement.

D. Fender
28-02-2018, 05:04 PM
Here's a fun game: check your favourite broker's Buy ratings against what the broker owns in its own managed funds. Looking at Forbar's NZ Equity fund, as at 31 Dec 2017 FBU was 4.26% of the fund, well underweight relative to the market. So how come FBU was a 'Buy' for its broking clients?

Balance
28-02-2018, 05:21 PM
Here's a fun game: check your favourite broker's Buy ratings against what the broker owns in its own managed funds. Looking at Forbar's NZ Equity fund, as at 31 Dec 2017 FBU was 4.26% of the fund, well underweight relative to the market. So how come FBU was a 'Buy' for its broking clients?

Cannot be on the wrong side of a major corporate client like FBU!

Broking clients? Suckers for punishment who will happily forget the last disaster - like Feltex!

Scooter
01-03-2018, 07:37 AM
Here's a fun game: check your favourite broker's Buy ratings against what the broker owns in its own managed funds. Looking at Forbar's NZ Equity fund, as at 31 Dec 2017 FBU was 4.26% of the fund, well underweight relative to the market. So how come FBU was a 'Buy' for its broking clients?

FB didn't have a buy, they had a neutral (yes I have checked), the last Buy they had was back in 2016. What was First NZ & Craig's recommendation.

Balance
01-03-2018, 09:48 AM
FB didn't have a buy, they had a neutral (yes I have checked), the last Buy they had was back in 2016. What was First NZ & Craig's recommendation.

Does not really matter whether it is a hold or a buy.

The day any broker puts a 'SELL" on a stock is when you should take notice - real notice.

In my time, I have only ever known a couple of analysts in broking firms who were prepared to put 'SELL' on stocks when all the other analysts had 'BUY' or "HOLD' - they both did not last long in the industry even though their calls were spot on.

Guess why?

Beagle
01-03-2018, 10:16 AM
I was a client of Forbar many years ago, for quite a number of years, left them about 6 years ago.
Just want to add my experience as a client.
The Credit sails issue was marketed as a very special opportunity. I read the IPO prospectus information very carefully and realized that to get the returns promised investors were well down the pecking order in terms of security. These CDO's were difficult to understand even for experienced investors. I declined the invitation to invest.
Coming up to the Feltex offer I was strongly advised to keep significant powder dry as a really special offer was soon to be forthcoming. My advisor subsequently really pushed this as an exceptional opportunity. Again I reviewed the IPO documentation in great detail and decided the gearing and historical financial performance, (cyclical in nature) wasn't for me.
I thank God he has given me a good brain to make decisions for myself based on my own analysis not the recommendations of Forbar or the particular advisor concerned.
All that said I did have a good relationship with Mr X and we enjoyed good banter and sharing of investment idea's, lunches and a trip to the boat show together.
I later became concerned that when I had a good idea I shared and bounced off Mr X it appeared I was then competing with Forbar for the available scrip. This pattern of behavior is what lead me to leave in tandem with concerns that one could never get a decent allocation in hot new issues but dog's were plentiful.
Overall I rate the caliber of the analysis their analysts produce as below average. Things may have changed from about 6 years ago but I for one wouldn't be game to assume a leopard changes its spots.

Balance
01-03-2018, 10:41 AM
Overall I rate the caliber of the analysis their analysts produce as below average. Things may have changed from about 6 years ago but I for one wouldn't be game to assume a leopard changes its spots.

We have had a bull market for over 7 years so hard for any analyst to get anything too wrong.

The fact that Forsyth Barr can get CBL so spectacularly wrong says that nothing has changed with the leopard's spots.

Takes a special kind of genius to get another IPO going broke within 2 years of listing - Feltex & CBL.

Balance
01-03-2018, 11:03 AM
We have had a bull market for over 7 years so hard for any analyst to get anything too wrong.

The fact that Forsyth Barr can get CBL so spectacularly wrong says that nothing has changed with the leopard's spots.

Takes a special kind of genius to get another IPO going broke within 2 years of listing - Feltex & CBL.



Holy freaking crocodiles without tears!

Just been drawn to my attention that Forsyth Barr was also the NZ lead manager for




WYNYARD!



That's 3 in a row!


Something smells very very badly with Forsyth Barr due diligence and IPO process.

peat
01-03-2018, 11:09 AM
when I had a good idea I shared and bounced off Mr X it appeared I was then competing with Forbar for the available scrip.
Thats disgusting. Reinforces my life motto
DTA.
Don't Trust Anyone

trader_jackson
01-03-2018, 11:10 AM
Holy freaking crocodiles without tears!

Just been drawn to my attention that Forsyth Barr was also the NZ lead manager for




WYNYARD!



That's 3 in a row!


Something smells very very badly with Forsyth Barr due diligence and IPO process.

Evolve Education hasn't been to flash either... so it seems they like listing dogs...
But Arvida wasn't that bad was it?

minimoke
01-03-2018, 11:11 AM
Holy freaking crocodiles without tears!

Just been drawn to my attention that Forsyth Barr was also the NZ lead manager for




WYNYARD!



That's 3 in a row!


Something smells very very badly with Forsyth Barr due diligence and IPO process.SPOLER ALERT



Do NOT look at Evolve Education

minimoke
01-03-2018, 11:13 AM
SPOLER ALERT



Do NOT look at Evolve Education

Nor should you look at ikeGPS

Beagle
01-03-2018, 11:14 AM
Thats disgusting. Reinforces my life motto
DTA.
Don't Trust Anyone

I was very fortunate to have a kind and very wise mentor who was the senior partner in an accounting firm in my first year of employment in 1981.
Never forgotten this gem he shared with me over Friday night drinks "Love many, trust few and always paddle your own canoe" You'd struggle to find better advice anywhere / anytime I reckon.

winner69
01-03-2018, 11:16 AM
Arvida seems to touted as one of their success stories

minimoke
01-03-2018, 11:26 AM
Arvida seems to touted as one of their success storiesAre there more?

Balance
01-03-2018, 11:36 AM
Brokers and analysts get calls (especially short term) wrong all the time.

Difference is that the market could be wrong as well from time to time - as long as a company survives, its fortunes can turn and spectacular gains can be made - eg. RBD, DIL, Serko, Xero, HBL etc

With CBL, Wynyard and Feltex (plus Credit Sails and South Canterbury Finance) - it's all over.

Seriously, how can one firm makke so many bad calls and still have suckers taking its IPO?

forest
01-03-2018, 11:39 AM
Isn't MPG also one of F&B IPO's. Not under but not really a success either.

minimoke
01-03-2018, 11:42 AM
Brokers and analysts get calls (especially short term) wrong all the time.

Which is why I don't use them. I'm quite capable of making my own wrong calls without paying for the privilege.

trader_jackson
01-03-2018, 12:18 PM
You reckon Forsyth is gunning to list Hirepool at the movement?

winner69
01-03-2018, 12:20 PM
I see they include The Government as one as one outfit they advise

Balance
12-11-2018, 08:22 PM
https://www.forsythbarr.co.nz/institutional-and-investment-banking/investment-banking/

I see Forsyth Barr still proudly proclaims their 2015 Deal of The Year - CBL Corporation $125m IPO!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12158862

Even by the disastrous due-diligence standard of Feltex IPO (broke within 2 years of IPO), bringing CBL to market in 2015 when it had been insolvent from 2013 right through until receivership must be a new low for Forsyth Barr's credibilty as an IPO manager!

minimoke
12-11-2018, 08:42 PM
Obviously the dirtiest fly covered turd can be polished up by the good folks at ForrBArr. I do wonder how some of them sleep at night.

Balance
12-11-2018, 09:37 PM
Obviously the dirtiest fly covered turd can be polished up by the good folks at ForrBArr. I do wonder how some of them sleep at night.

Haha - that's a rather graphic description which a good lawyer should be able to use when taking a case against Forsyth Barr?

Remember the 'catch flies with honey rather than vinegar' Credit Sails deceptive promotional & marketing pitch by Forsyth Barr?

Balance
13-11-2018, 07:47 AM
https://creditsails.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/forsyth-barr-executives-exposed-in-emails-published-by-commerce-commission-we-catch-more-flies-with-honey-than-vinegar-were-not-selling-bloody-cigarettes/

Worth a read just so that everyone is aware how devious Forsyth Barr is and how quickly they try to run away from responsibility and accountability.

Sorry but anyone who lost money participating in the CBL IPO and using Forsyth barr advice have only themselves to blame.

whatsup
13-11-2018, 08:52 AM
Never forget that some "brokers " would sell their father if they knew who he was !!

Balance
04-07-2019, 11:57 AM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/113952244/reserve-bank-builds-regulatory-muscle-after-750-million-cbl-failure

"Trowbridge said the CBL failure was reminiscent of other insurance collapses, including Australia's HIH in 2001, because it involved "under-reserving" for future claims. Under-reserving is when an insurer does not set aside enough capital to ensure it can meet claims in the future. In the short-term that can boost growth as the company can offer lower premiums, but over time it results in an insurer going broke. Trowbridge said he was shocked at the level of under-reserving by CBL, which he described as "massive".

"That was a huge shock to me," he said."

Well, should be no shock whatsoever to those of us who know Forsyth Barr for either doing bugger all real due diligence or are simply totally incompetent before bringing the likes of Feltex, Wynyard, SCF, Evolve, Credit Sails and

now, clearly CBL *

to be sold to the market for their thirty pieces of silver (from the promoters).

* CBL was basically broke even before it listed!

Ggcc
04-07-2019, 01:20 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/113952244/reserve-bank-builds-regulatory-muscle-after-750-million-cbl-failure

"Trowbridge said the CBL failure was reminiscent of other insurance collapses, including Australia's HIH in 2001, because it involved "under-reserving" for future claims. Under-reserving is when an insurer does not set aside enough capital to ensure it can meet claims in the future. In the short-term that can boost growth as the company can offer lower premiums, but over time it results in an insurer going broke. Trowbridge said he was shocked at the level of under-reserving by CBL, which he described as "massive".

"That was a huge shock to me," he said."

Well, should be no shock whatsoever to those of us who know Forsyth Barr for either doing bugger all real due diligence or are simply totally incompetent before bringing the likes of Feltex, Wynyard, SCF, Evolve, Credit Sails and

now, clearly CBL *

to be sold to the market for their thirty pieces of silver (from the promoters).

* CBL was basically broke even before it listed!

Hence why I don't rate Forsyth Barr at all. Their track record speaks for itself with advices........ MET being a buy about two years ago pfffft

Valuegrowth
19-09-2021, 07:39 PM
https://www.benzinga.com/money/stockbrokers-new-zealand/
BEST STOCK BROKERS IN NEW ZEALAND

Forsythbar is one of them.

What is your best NZ broker and why did you select it? Thanks in advance.

Nor
20-09-2021, 10:32 AM
Just use a no frills broker. Then all your mistakes are your own.

Balance
20-09-2021, 10:38 AM
https://www.benzinga.com/money/stockbrokers-new-zealand/
BEST STOCK BROKERS IN NEW ZEALAND

Forsythbar is one of them.

What is your best NZ broker and why did you select it? Thanks in advance.

Wrong site to come to look for recommendation for brokers. Most posters here are DYO investors.

I personally rank Jarden & Craigs highly because of their access to good corporate deals & research. But unless you deal in big licks, you do not get any attention from them.

justakiwi
20-09-2021, 10:39 AM
................................deleted

(just realised the post I replied to was as old as hell)

Muse
20-09-2021, 12:55 PM
Wrong site to come to look for recommendation for brokers. Most posters here are DYO investors.

I personally rank Jarden & Craigs highly because of their access to good corporate deals & research. But unless you deal in big licks, you do not get any attention from them.

Aye agree.

Without being too unkind, Forbar attracts those who couldnt get a job with Jarden/UBS/Goldmans but wont go to a big 4 firm because they want to call themselves an investment banker.