Listed Property Trusts

[_Michael]

If you follow ING for any length of time you can see management has consistently been value destructive in that sense. The vehicle trades at deepest discount to nav for good reason. They had to re-negotiate lending covenants just to keep afloat yet they keep going on about how there is no justification for weak share price. Strong management acknowledges mistakes and makes efforts to revise strategy, not these guys.

[beacon]

Yo All (Esp Beacon )
Have been buying up a-tween whitebaiting. Hard work that whitebaiting,
had to come home for a rest. :D " hic " :D:D

I have done some cal's, Beacon old son You do yours !!!



Hi BB, not a holder, not interested at these prices in NZ LPTs and keeping away from falling houses of cards so far. Who knows what's in store with Ozzie banks and fallout from Ozzie LPTs capitulation. I have a passing interest in ASX LPTs just like W69 has a passing interest in Ozzie banks. Some day ... but not yet ...

As you probably already know, ING has one of the steepest discounts to NAV amongst NZ LPTs, and yet doesn't come anywhere near some ASX LPTs for being value. Check them out directly. You might find some interesting fish ...

[Billy Boy]

As you probably already know, ING has one of the steepest discounts to NAV amongst NZ LPTs, and yet doesn't come anywhere near some ASX LPTs for being value. Check them out directly. You might find some interesting fish ...
Tks Beacon
Yes I have been watching ozzy closley, esp with the NZ dollar dropping.
cheers BB :)

[Billy Boy]

GGG
Q. No 8
When do ING intend embarking on another buy back campaign to mop up the lastest DRP ?

BB :D

[Dr_Who]

When does ING go ex dividend? I assume if I buy some now, I will get a div?

[Billy Boy]

When does ING go ex dividend? I assume if I buy some now, I will get a div?
Books close 12 sept
Yep you'll get the div 2.175 Div0.4174 Imp
BB :)

[Dr_Who]

Books close 12 sept
Yep you'll get the div 2.175 Div0.4174 Imp
BB :)

Thanks BB. With interest rates coming down and a good div yield, ING is a no brainer for the long term portfolio. RB to cute rates further on sept 11 and a div from ING on 12 sept!!

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Dr Who is it still a No Brainer if share price ex div is 65cents Remember DRP is at 5% discount

[The Great Gold Guru]

Who said the commercial property market is weak .... ????

Just attended the National Bank auction ... all 6 North Is props sold under hammer

Birkenhead $2,750,000 5.37%
Onehunga $1,890,000 6.18%
Pukekohe $1,980,000 6.32%
Gisborne $1,970,000 6.37%
New Plymouth $2,340,000 7.50%
Palm North $3,410,000 7.58%


Amazing prices paid considering the implied yields offered on the stockmarket of 8,9,10,11 and even 12% ... Birkenhead at 5.37% is just CRAZY !!!

[Dr_Who]

Dr Who is it still a No Brainer if share price ex div is 65cents Remember DRP is at 5% discount

I am talking about the long term portfolio.

Yield at 11.6% and RB to further cut rates sept 11 another 25-50 points.

It is a no brainer to me.

[777]

I have been to numerous auctions on the North Shore over the past year or two and the yields have all been in the 5-6% area. Too risky for me.

[The Great Gold Guru]

Goodman is the best performer in my portfolio at present. Good buying today is lieu of dividend ex date ... 117 +2

[Halebop]

I have been to numerous auctions on the North Shore over the past year or two and the yields have all been in the 5-6% area. Too risky for me.

Agreed there is little margin of error apparent in those sorts of prices. I suspect though that an aging population brings about a bias towards income and inflation hedging with investing. It wouldn't surprise me, even if commercial real estate substantially corrected, that yields remain in a relatively low band versus the historical movement between boom and bust.

[The Great Gold Guru]

CBRE reckon carparks in Auckland are great long term buying, average daily rates in Auckland sit around $13.50 ... in Sydney at $70/day !!!! ... Kermadec is heavily exposed to this sector and looks good buying at 63c to me, and it yields over 12% !!!!!

Disc: Hold 50,304 KPF

[macduffy]

National Bank properties all sold presumably with lease back to NBNZ.I wonder what length these leases are? All may be candidates for eventual merger with ANZ branches which is inevitable at some stage.

;)

[The Great Gold Guru]

9Yrs with 6 x 3Yr ROR

[POSSUM THE CAT]

The GGG so exactly how long are they guaranteeing they do not have to renew

[Billy Boy]

The GGG so exactly how long are they guaranteeing they do not have to renew

They can terminate the lease after 6 yrs go for another 6 or another 6
after that. But they dont have to renew between the six's
BB

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Thanks BB that is quite different from what you could take from The GGG's post

[Dr_Who]

ING up 2 cents today. :)

[troyvdh]

....ramping....ahhh...guilty....

PFI.....113... 115...previous high,,,150 approx.....

....div is 6-7 %.....occupancy...99-100....debt/ratio....25 % (less/more ?)

.....no major/sell changes in share holdings....Gareth off biking full time...P Masfen remaining ....

. Questiion ..buy heaps (perhaps at 9 %).....

..any arguments against.....fore ....

Disc....been in mkt 25 yrs....PFI for 10 yrs....hold 50000 + PFI....

cheers...my investment horizon is 1-30 yrs....

[Contrarian]

Gidday

This has the biggest discount to NTA

http://www.npt.co.nz/index.cfm


& Hows this look today? All figures are Minus!

Foreign Markets
Market Last Change
Dow Jones 11,188 345 2.99%
S&P 500 1,237 38 2.99%
Nasdaq 2,259 75 3.20%
FTSE 100 5,362 138 2.50%
Nikkei 12,558 132 1.04%
Hang Seng 20,389 196 0.95%
DAX 30 6,280 188 2.91%
CAC 40 4,304 143 3.22%

[Billy Boy]

I think they carry the Greatest debt of all the listed
Havent got time to check, going om memory
BB

[Dr_Who]

LPTs are looking good with rates cut throughout this year and next year. :)

[fungus pudding]

Thanks BB that is quite different from what you could take from The GGG's post


They were advertised as 9 yr terms plus renewals, so no way out in 6 years time.

[The Great Gold Guru]

50bps cut .... that will help !!!!!!!!!!!!

[777]

Buyers there already with high bids.

[The Great Gold Guru]

AMP Office looks well bid .......

[AMR]

The charts are looking better now than they have for a while...still not a buy signal yet, but watch them carefully!

[The Great Gold Guru]

ING shares plumbing new lows ... 73c now trading. Yes,yes I know we are trading ex a 2c divi today, but didn't we get a 50bps rate cut last week. Still no word on the $60m of sales mentioned at the AGM. No doubt First NZ Capital will be selling aggressively over the next few days knowing the management at ING have seen it in the best interests of unit holders to replace them very kindly at a 5% discount to the current price ... talk about easy money !! ... and talk about disgusting shareholder wealth destruction !! ... didn't even have the guts to announce the details of the underwriting at the AGM ... truly awful corporate governance ... the NZX should be on to them !!!

73c ... what a joke !!

[The Great Gold Guru]

72c now ... First NZ Capital will be having a laugh ... at all the loyal unit-holders expense of course.

[The Great Gold Guru]

Cash yield on ING now over 12.1% ... shows what the market thinks of this company !! ..... ( JUNK BOND sort of yield !!! .... even higher than most failed finance companies were prepared to pay !! )

Will 71c trade ? ....

[POSSUM THE CAT]

TGGG as the DRP shares would have been issued at about 70cents it is suprising this is not trading at 68cents.

[The Great Gold Guru]

Possum, The DRP price is normally based on a VWAP of the five days trading after the stock goes XD ... Day one today and a VWAP of 73.2 ... A 5% discount off that and you get ING issuing shares at a highly dilutive 69.5c based off todays trading ...

To issue shares to an investment bank at half price to NAV and then discount that level by another 5% is just dumb ... The dividend is on approx 500m shares so will be around $11m ... , how many end up with NZ First Capital depends on how many people decide to take the cash ... or more depressingly NEED to take the cash ... that will be another 15.5m shares on issue ... alot of those will be sold pretty quickly, further depressing the share price. ING was yielding more than Kermadec at 72c !! ... thats how lowly this company and its portfolio and its management is rated by the market.

How they can consider this to be in shareholders interests I have absloutely no idea. Its like they are selling 2.6% of the whole property portfolio at HALF PRICE. The much vaunted NAV of $1.40 per share in the Annual Report is no longer !! .... This DRP at this time is possibly the stupidist piece of management incompetence I have seen in a very very long time. Lets hope its only for this dividend and they come to their senses and scrap this nonsense before the next dividend in December. This is just 10 out of 10 DUMB !!!!!!

[POSSUM THE CAT]

TGGG I have spent some of the last few years in Australia where the drp terms are usually different to this so my rough calculation was well out. So the more you sell to drive the price down under this scheme the better off you can be as you say extremely stupid

[The Great Gold Guru]

70c today ... looks like First NZ will be getting stock at 50% discount to NAV , and management think this is in the best interests of unit-holders. Just absolutely desperate corporate governance ... pitiful & shameful !!

[The Great Gold Guru]

Some really good performances the last few days amongst the quality LPT stocks ...

APT up to 110 ex a recent 2c divi
KIP up at 120 which would be the highest level for several months
GMT up at 118 ex a recent 2.625c divi

Good volume going thru as well

ING still mired at record lows ... dismal !

[Contrarian]

Gidday TGGG

So you are saying it's a great buy, good hold, don't sell & if you hold, take the DRIP so you get the benefit of the 1/2 price shares but if you take the cash divvy you are getting screwed?

[The Great Gold Guru]

Absolutely , if you are a medium term holder of ING ( you have to be if you don't want to take a big huge loss !! ) then you'd be mad to take the cash dividend. That's why I think management have lost the plot ... people who buy these LPT's rely on a regular cash dividend, to discriminate against them in favour of an organisation like First NZ Capital is just plain and simple wrong !!. I wonder if ING have considered the signal to the market when the dividend is forced to be cut cos the capital base is growing by 2.8% every three months and yet the income is not ... ING is rated the lowest of an listed property company bar National Property Trust ... what a sorry state of affairs !! Read the first few paragraphs of the chairmans letter in the annual report where he waffles on about diversification and "the market does not credit us for our diversification strategy" ... what a load of twaddle !!. Diversification is for people who don't back there own judgement to pick winners from losers ... its a strategy that almost guarantees mediocrity , did anyone see any inkling 5yr strategic plan at the AGM? ... not me ... The only reason to own this stock is the dividend yield and now the management have made getting cash divi's very very dis-advantageous ... you virtually have to take the DRIP or you are being slowly but surely diluted .. not very palatable really for an sophisticated investor.

[The Great Gold Guru]

ING at 68c ( 48.5% of NAV ) ..... just bgt some more , div yield at a fraction under 13% !! , looks like the DRP will be well below 70c now .... still no news on the $60m of sales mentioned at AGM ........

[Billy Boy]

GGG
There has been a lot of "SP" or "off market transactions" over the
last few days.
Who are these people likely to be ??
Cheers BB :)

[The Great Gold Guru]

Hi BB,

Good Q. ... I would say alot of institutions such are forced sellers at the moment due to redemption pressure from "the man in the street" on their fund products. Watching the trades go thru on all the LPT's I would like to think it is the NZ Super Fund buying. There has been good volume all week ... 200,000 here , 350,000 there in all the property stocks. It makes for great buying for someone like the super fund ... great yields in the short term ... almost double AAA rated bonds ... and huge discounts to asset value. Considering with stocks like APT and KIP and to a lesser extent ING that the Government themselves are probably the largest tenants then it is a pretty good relatively safe trade. And they will hold for years so its good for the rest of us holders to see large lines of stock going into the hands of a very long term holder .... that's who I hope is buying anyway !!

[Contrarian]

Gidday
I'm in, because of pride of ownership of one of the best,(tell me of a better one) building in Auckland. Citibank Customs St. You have to crane your neck to see the awesome architectural features, Shades of Dilworth building.

Scumbag crappy leaky developers don't get this adulation 20 years later, & The Dilworth building ? years later. No one regretted buying quality

[Billy Boy]

GGG
I know ING are not very far advanced with the Albany development,
But as Orewa and Albany are in the same vacinaty, Whats your take
as to the impact on ING with the Kensington Park issue.
Cheers BB
:)

[777]

As expected. Decrease in property valuations.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10533877

[AMR]

GGG
I know ING are not very far advanced with the Albany development,
But as Orewa and Albany are in the same vacinaty, Whats your take
as to the impact on ING with the Kensington Park issue.
Cheers BB
:)

From a north shore boy's perspective, Albany has several things going for it : Massey uni, shopping mall, good access via the northern busway, a major industrial zone, and a stone's throw away from the major population centres of east coast bays.

Orewa...it has a beach and some regional offices for consultants in Rodney.

[AMR]

How do you calculate KIP's yield for a 33% tax bracket and a 19.5% tax bracket? Findata just gives KIP's yield as 7.43% without any other information.

Today's price action takes it right back to a support area which gives a very nice low risk entry area. Watching carefully for the next few days. Beware, chart is a day old.
http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=58

[Dr_Who]

Can someone tell me how much the LPT usually take in management fees? Is it a fixed fee or performance based?

[scamper]

kip's divi is paid in june and dec.
think it's pfi who pays quarterly.
cheers, scamper.

[Billy Boy]

kip's divi is paid in june and dec.
think it's pfi who pays quarterly.
cheers, scamper.
Yep you are quite right scamper. I pulled the original post. Was in
too much of a hurry :o.
AMR
Return on unit cost after tax with IMP added, (Unit cost $1.18.)
KIP @ 33% clear after Tax 5.42%
@ 19% clear after Tax 6.48%
Cheers BB:)

[_Michael]

Think anyone reading that post is getting shonky advice.

KIP currently has 7.6% dividend - you need not pay any tax on that due to PIE, therefore the after tax yield is 7.6%.

Therefore they pay an equivalent of around 11% gross dividend if you pay 33% tax (i.e. you need to divide by .67)

Strong yield considering bank deposit returns are heading south.

[Billy Boy]

Think anyone reading that post is getting shonky advice.

KIP currently has 7.6% dividend - you need not pay any tax on that due to PIE, therefore the after tax yield is 7.6%.

Therefore they pay an equivalent of around 11% gross dividend if you pay 33% tax (i.e. you need to divide by .67)

Strong yield considering bank deposit returns are heading south.
Good one Treve ???
Then you crunch the numbers and give us the real returns on dollars
invested. All up, net ??
Show us how you calculate.
BB:)

[_Michael]

Okey dokey, here we go:

Strictly discussing cash yield here and leaving capital gains/losses to the side.

I invest $1.18 and purchase 1 unit (or share) in KIP

KIP pays me 9 cents, representing a yield of 7.63%

KIP have already paid tax on this, so I don't have to.

Therefore my net after tax cash return is 9 cents or 7.63%

If i'm in the 33% tax bracket an after tax return of 7.63% is the same as an 11.4% pre-tax (gross) return. The calculation from 7.63 to 11.4 is:

Y = After tax yield, 7.63%
T = Your tax rate, 33%
X = (1 - T), (1-.33)=.67
Z = Gross yield, Y / X, 7.63% / .67 = 11.4%

I assume you know that after tax yield refers to cash return.

Geez BB, if you won't take my word for it look at this from KIP's announcement yesterday - they are telling you themselves :)

"We are projecting a cash distribution for the year ending 31 March
2009 of 9.0 cents per unit, representing an after tax yield of around 7.5%
for domestic investors at current unit prices. This is equivalent to a
pre-tax yield of over 11% for an investor who pays tax at a rate of 33%," Mr Wareing said.

[777]

From the last paragraph of ING revaluation announcement this morning.

"The Trust's portfolio is diversified by sector, location and by tenant mix
with 80 properties and 373 tenants. The Trust's largest tenant by rental
income accounts for only 3.8% of the total income from the portfolio. At the
current unit price, ING units are providing a cash return of 12.3% per annum,
and an effective return to 39.0% taxpayers under the Portfolio Investment
Entity regime of 20.0% per annum."

[Billy Boy]

From the last paragraph of ING revaluation announcement this morning.

"The Trust's portfolio is diversified by sector, location and by tenant mix
with 80 properties and 373 tenants. The Trust's largest tenant by rental
income accounts for only 3.8% of the total income from the portfolio. At the
current unit price, ING units are providing a cash return of 12.3% per annum,
and an effective return to 39.0% taxpayers under the Portfolio Investment
Entity regime of 20.0% per annum."

SHHHH ! 777 or everyone will wake up......
Better place to put your money than Hanover, Dont u think :D
cheers BB:D

[AMR]

That setup I posted last week on KIP would have been profitable already, too bad I was hesitant in buying on the pullback to 116. Might enter on monday with stop loss at 116 and hold for the next couple of years.

APT is showing signs of life too, breaking through resistance and pulling back. Ditto for GMT.

ING is still in a steep downtrend, only good for the knife catchers.

[Billy Boy]

APT is showing signs of life too, breaking through resistance and pulling back. Ditto for GMT.
ING is still in a steep downtrend, only good for the knife catchers.
Cant agree on that one.......
I too have been buying up LPT's in a big way.
I have yet to find anyone who can tell why ING is such a bad buy !!
Not many know, but ING Property Trust (NZ) is 49% owned by the ANZ !!
KPF is another worth looking at
NAP... well too much debt at this point in time.
Both KPF & NAP... take over targets... possible ya know.
BB

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Billy Boy please explain how the ING property trust is 50% owned by ANZ. The management company of the trust maybe But the actual trust?

[winner69]

ANZ own 49% of ING NZ ..... not the property trust

Did see ANZ fronted up with $200k to fix up their diabolical dealings with a poor old lady their advisors put into a ING fund that suspended payments but thats another story

[Billy Boy]

Yep Sorry
ING NZ.....

BB:)

[Billy Boy]

Yep Sorry
ING NZ.....

BB:)
Anyone know why ANZ advisers Push Marac ??
Whats the tie up ??
BB:)

[seagull]

Having been in small commercial properties for 20 years, Ing PT looks more attractive now. With a yield of over 12% - in cash or re-investment and good prospects of a capital gain over time. Why search round for another property. Their revaluation stood up well and guidance is for 8.7c a unit this year. Bought in last week. Cheers

[Dr_Who]

Whats happening with ING?

Looks like the bottom has fallen out! WOOF WOOF!

disc: shareholder

[winner69]

Whats happening with ING?

Looks like the bottom has fallen out! WOOF WOOF!

disc: shareholder

Maybe signalling an impending implosion in commercial property values which will stuff up all capital ratios .... and maybe the need for more capital

[Lizard]

I see one broker just downgraded ING despite low price relative to valuation citing high interest costs and stating a preference for trusts with lower gearing levels and "more secure" dividend levels.

Interestingly, NAP, which is also still relatively highly geared, has not been suffering the same fate in this market. Perhaps because it was already well sold down?

[Dr_Who]

I see one broker just downgraded ING despite low price relative to valuation citing high interest costs and stating a preference for trusts with lower gearing levels and "more secure" dividend levels.

Interestingly, NAP, which is also still relatively highly geared, has not been suffering the same fate in this market. Perhaps because it was already well sold down?

BRoker downgrade? Maybe it is time to pick up some more ING shares. Whenever a broker has a downgrade it is a sure sign to buy.

[Billy Boy]

I see one broker just downgraded ING despite low price relative to valuation citing high interest costs and stating a preference for trusts with lower gearing levels and "more secure" dividend levels.

Who,s the Broker? or are u not allowed to say ? :)
My computor died a ways back and I lost a lot of notes.
I thought ING were Leveraged to about 27% and NAP up around
33%
Any One ???:)
BB

[Lizard]

I think at FY they were leveraged 37% and then sold one property ($6.5m) and bought another ($17m)... along with the revals, that looks to me to be close to 39% gearing?

The revolving credit facilities had capacity for substantially more debt to be employed (up to $650m available vs estimate $470m used). A significant portion (over 40%) is hedged through swaps to only 2009 at average 6.43% interest, so I guess this could see some upward pressure.

This might not impact the distribution too sharply, but the difficulty will be if ANZ pushes for them to reduce gearing - since selling properties above book value looks unlikely for a while. To my inexperienced eyes, it doesn't look like they are at risk of going the way of Centro, but it does seem feasible that the dividend could be cut heavily next year. Of course, if they are able to conduct some sales at reasonable prices (or the ANZ is willing to stay supportive at higher gearing levels as property prices fall) then it may not be an issue.

[Billy Boy]

Thanks Lizard
I have been pooring through the last annual report, announcements etc.
I think what you say about a lower divvy next year could well be the case. But even so they are still a great buy at 68c especially as a long
term hold. I dont like this DRP system But there again I can see why
they are doing it. hav'ent works out the %%% yet.
The next two weeks will be the great "teller" for many things......
there is still a fair bit of down side to come.
October is the month. we might start to get a clearer picture, beginning
November
Cheers BB

[The Great Gold Guru]

Just bgt some KPF at 55c !!!!!!

[macduffy]

Just bgt some KPF at 55c !!!!!!

KPF do look tempting at 55c.
I see from the Annual Report that there is $48m in borrowings shown in Current Liabilities and due for repayment! ( more likely re-financing ) in December, 2008.
In current credit conditions this looks to be a bit of a hurdle for a company of this size, unless renewal/refinancing has already been put in place.
Is there any update on this?

[Billy Boy]

1:40
All the buyers have fled NAP !!
Whats happened ??
BB

[AMR]

What happened to our KIP today? Big selloff on high volume with a break of support. Any fundamental reason why?

[Billy Boy]

Just bgt some KPF at 55c !!!!!!
Got some more @ 56c today :)
also got a plug in for some more ING
BB

[Billy Boy]

NAP Takeover or Merger
Ok you's lot, Who are the likely contenders ?
I go with KIP.... Merger....;)
BB :rolleyes:

[Billy Boy]

Hey Stevey M.
Loving these prices......ay :D
KPF 52c, ING 62c, GMT 105, APT 100 (up 4 ).....
KPF with a divvy due 7th nov
Geess
BB:)

[Dr_Who]

Do you guys think the div from some of these LPT will have to be cut in the future?

[Billy Boy]

Do you guys think the div from some of these LPT will have to be cut in the future?
Yes Doc I do...
But they will have to be cut one hell of a lot to get to around
bank deposits.
The market will not stay at these levels for ever. There are a lot
of buyers who are still sitting and waiting with cash in hand.
(e.g Read the nzog reports today.) The insto's are buying in.
ACC have to report their Plus 5% holdings in ING.
Interest rates are dropping for the invester. Some of the good
finance company's rates are going to drop very soon. etc etc.
We are going to see a lot of bad water go under the bridge yet,
but the clouds are clearing in the head waters IMO.
When the share market starts upwards, it will be fast and sudden.
Long term investors like my self, dont care where the bottom is,
as long as we get a reasonable divvy along the way. And yes
averaging down is an option.
So....
IMHO... buying at these levels and Percentage returns (after tax)
with inflation as it is..... 58% of my portfolio is now in LPT's.
Whats your thoughts Doc ??

BB:)

[_Michael]

Hi Billy Boy

Your post mirrors pretty much what I am thinking.

The quality trusts (low gearing, good tenants, industry and geog diverse) will not go to zero.

In the meantime the lower they go the better the div % - even they were cut by a third you're ahead of the alternatives for income.

If you're longer term most of them have DRP in place so the lower they go the better.

[Dr_Who]

BB,

I agree with you some what, but I do have concerns for LPTs that are highly leveraged. I recall the bad old days of Bob Jones and others and all his BS leveraged, front loading properties pre 87. The bad memories still stays at the back of my mind.

I dont what to make of these LPTs that are currently listed. I assume it should be fine if the tenants dont go belly up and can keep up rental payment.

Dont know, this market still worries me.

[fungus pudding]

Hi Billy Boy

Your post mirrors pretty much what I am thinking.

The quality trusts (low gearing, good tenants, industry and geog diverse) will not go to zero.

In the meantime the lower they go the better the div % - even they were cut by a third you're ahead of the alternatives for income.

If you're longer term most of them have DRP in place so the lower they go the better.


It's those DRP schemes that frighten me. With share price well below assett backing, every time they issue shares at current selling price, they dilute the existing share value. These schemes should be suspended when share price is low.

[_Michael]

Guess that is a good point from that perspective funguspudding....

[Billy Boy]

Dr Who
The days of Bob Jones type rampaging are gone. He over extended
the company and was far to highly leveraged and could,nt pull out
when things went wrong. There were other factors as well.....
The leveraging at the moment in most coy's is around 33% downwards
and thats not too bad when you apply the fundamentials associated
the each individual coy. Nap was over the top IMO & is why they are
stocking now. I dont think NAP are in the S**t, as they could sell
down some assets (as they have), take a hit, but still survive.
Market sentiment is the present day virous going around, and not only
for the LPT's. There some very good, solid coy's out there that are
well under valued. And that makes for good buying now. OK we may
not yet be at the very bottom, But I think we are close too it, with
a "glimmer up ahead".
GGG
I am with you on this DRP thing, Yes I know why they like to do it, but it is the end result that counts and that is not so good. Dilution of the units
are like a slow cancer. If you are in it then you go nowhere! unless you sell, if you are out then you get bitten by the cancer ! Bloody great.

Here is a thought for all..... (may be I an wrong).... DYO sums
Go to one of those Kiwi Saver Calculators and see how much dosh
you will have accumulated by the time you'r 65.
Now take the same money you would be paying, without employers
contribution, save it until just before Books Close on chosen LPT(s), then buy and accumulate.
At 65
Kiwi saver pay $xx$ amount flat. (inflation ?? No protection)
LPTs Investment will pay $xx$ every quarter (tax free) and you get to keep the originial amount to pass onto the kids.

I have work this out some time ago but lost my data base, else I would
post the results, cant be bothered doing it all again.
From memory.
earning and average of $60,000 for 45 yrs @ 4%...
Payout about $600,000. (how much is $600,000 going to be worth in 45 year time?) Stuff have a calculator i think.
PTs.. Save about $1.300,000 (not including adjustment for inflation)
@ 8% = $96,000 after tax each year untill you snuff it.
Now I am not trying to knock Kiwi Saver as i think it's a great thing
for all Plebs. And I know some of you will "Nit Pick" what I have said
above, But do your own sums and apply the idea intelligently,
You will be supprised.
BB:)

[underground]

bought some ING today at 60c thought it would be wise to average down my original holding which was at 90c

even if it takes out some time (a few years) to restore confidence in the market to get ING back to 1.20ish it would be well worth the wait, dont you think?

i have some confidence in the fact that i am buying at half the net asset value. so even if the trust winds up im sure that i wouldnt be too adversely affected.

otherwise ill just sue the auditor.. =)

i hold just over 16,000 units and am currently in the DRP plan, it feels like not to long ago management were doing on market buybacks in excess of a dollar per share. and now their issuing more shares. seems a bit counter productive to me??

[fungus pudding]

bought some ING today at 60c thought it would be wise to average down my original holding which was at 90c

even if it takes out some time (a few years) to restore confidence in the market to get ING back to 1.20ish it would be well worth the wait, dont you think?

i have some confidence in the fact that i am buying at half the net asset value. so even if the trust winds up im sure that i wouldnt be too adversely affected.

otherwise ill just sue the auditor.. =)

i hold just over 16,000 units and am currently in the DRP plan, it feels like not to long ago management were doing on market buybacks in excess of a dollar per share. and now their issuing more shares. seems a bit counter productive to me??


Yes. It's nuts, and not at all in the interests of shareholders.

[CAM]

.... 58% of my portfolio is now in LPT's.

BB:)

Is that all in NZ LPT's?....or some Aussieones as well?

[Billy Boy]

Is that all in NZ LPT's?....or some Aussieones as well?
ING, KPF, APT, GMT
No Aussies, at this stage.
BB:)

[Billy Boy]

even if it takes out some time (a few years) to restore confidence in the market to get ING back to 1.20ish it would be well worth the wait, dont you think?

Yes I do agree, in the meantime we get those high percentage divvys.
The likes of ING have bank backing well out and a average tenant lease
term of about 4.5 yrs. So I dont see the divvy comming down very far
(if at all) over the next 4 years.
KPF is another PT worth a good look at.
Cheers BB:)

[fungus pudding]

Yes I do agree, in the meantime we get those high percentage divvys.
The likes of ING have bank backing well out and a average tenant lease
term of about 4.5 yrs. So I dont see the divvy comming down very far
(if at all) over the next 4 years.
KPF is another PT worth a good look at.
Cheers BB:)



It all depends on the assett backing after their printing presses have cranked out huge numbers of shares in lieu of divvies. Without their reinvestment plans they would be great.

[macduffy]

look i dont mean to call you guys out each time you talk about kpf but.. let me reiterate:
kpf has crap assets - don't believe me - go take a look - going to need some serious maintenance in years ahead.
2ndly, guaranteed rents are going to roll off soon - goodbye divvies.

I'd have to agree with that.
Properties don't impress and the frequent mention of " rental underwrite" in the descriptions aint a good sign.

;)

[Billy Boy]

look i dont mean to call you guys out each time you talk about kpf but.. let me reiterate:
kpf has crap assets - don't believe me - go take a look - going to need some serious maintenance in years ahead.
2ndly, guaranteed rents are going to roll off soon - goodbye divvies.
Smokin Cubins & Macduff
Your import is great and I thank you both for that as I live at
the other end of the other Island. All I can go by are the pretty
pictures.
However I will be in Auckland over the Xmas Period, (With Time)and I really intend to do a lot of looking.
Tks Again
BB:)

[Billy Boy]

Properties don't impress and the frequent mention of " rental underwrite" in the descriptions aint a good sign.

;)
KPF say they are down to about 2% rental underwrite, from 15.9%.
smokin cubins...
A valuer friend of mind says KPF buildings are, in general, about mid
range. He does'nt have an issue with them, but points out, he is
only going on an "uniformed generalisation".
BB

[fungus pudding]

KPF say they are down to about 2% rental underwrite, from 15.9%.
smokin cubins...
A valuer friend of mind says KPF buildings are, in general, about mid
range. He does'nt have an issue with them, but points out, he is
only going on an "uniformed generalisation".
BB


I presume that's uninformed generalisation. .....
Your valuer friend will know that the condition of the buidings will be factored into the valuations, and also factored into the rental.
I see the likes of Goodman being more affected as they are holding undeveloped land,which will take the biggest hit as the economy contracts.

[Billy Boy]

Hi F/pud
Yea I missed a "n"....
Could,nt help myself with ING....
Had to get in today 63cents
Picked up 150k 11.30
BB

[fungus pudding]

Hi F/pud
Yea I missed a "n"....
Could,nt help myself with ING....
Had to get in today 63cents
Picked up 150k 11.30
BB


Yeah. That's got to be good buying. They might hover low for quite a while, but as long as people want to give them away - just keep helping them!

[Dr_Who]

Interesting to find ING fund consistently selling down their holding in ING. Now holding just under 6%.

[Billy Boy]

Interesting to find ING fund consistently selling down their holding in ING. Now holding just under 6%.
They need the ready's ;)
BB

[Dr_Who]

I am thinking of buying more ING shares.

Do you think ING can retain its div and why?

[Billy Boy]

I am thinking of buying more ING shares.

Do you think ING can retain its div and why?
In short NO.... 7.8 cents probably..... But guessing
I see KPF have dropped their div to 1.625c per unit & at 50 cents
per unit, thats 13% after tax. 38% leverage is high but that will
come down with time. They have negotiated bank extentions for another two yrs.

ING are quite a bit different
From memory about 33% leveraged and are ditching 3rd grade propertys.
I think they have to go for bank extentions around DEC (400m from
memory) so if they have to pay around .75% - 1% more yes the div could
drop a bit. Although commercial leasing is not dropping off as much as I
though overall. Even if the div comes down to 8 cents a unit, that is
still a good div @ 12% after tax (63c P/unit.)
I see Dir/broking have ING @ 8 cents as div. Prev 8.7 ( last two qtrs 1.125 & 2.175 respectively). So 8 CPU could very well hold up. They are due to
come out with their half year this month. That will put all of us into a better position to evaluate. Might pay to wait till then !! But there again ?
I think it was GGG that said. "LPT's are things you buy and never sell."
I had a computer crash and lost a lot of my Data base. Else I could
be a little more accurate with numbers etc....
Cheers BB :)

[fungus pudding]

[QUOTE=Billy Boy;232046]

I think it was GGG that said. "LPT's are things you buy and never sell."
QUOTE]



I don't know who said it, but I'll second it.

[Billy Boy]

Books cls today and SP dropping.... Not good.
Gossip circles suggest that if Jonny Two Step
gets to be PM then a lotta gvmt jobs get axed
and APT houses those workers.
BB

[CAM]

Kiwi property trust posts loss
Thursday Nov 13, 2008

Falling property values have pushed New Zealand's largest listed real estate entity into the red, with Kiwi Income Property Trust announcing a $31.3 million after-tax loss.
Buildings owned by the huge shopping centre and office block owner were devalued by $52 million, resulting in the loss for the half year to September 30.
The Trust today revised its projected cash distribution for the full year to 8 cents per unit.
"This is lower than previously forecast due to the decision to cease distributing the gain from the trust's investment in capital properties, at this stage," said chairman Sean Wareing.
A $8.3m gain made in the trust's investment in Capital Properties New Zealand Ltd will not be distributed.
The trust is paying an interim distribution of 4.60 cents per unit, comprising 4 cents in cash and 0.60 cents in imputation credits on December 15.
The trust said its distributable profit of $28.8m for the half year to September 30 was in line with the distributable profit for the same period last year.

The $52m reduction in the value of the property portfolio to $2.033 billion represents 2.5 per cent of the portfolio.
As at September 30 the trust's total assets stood at $2.05bn, with bank debt of $598m, representing 29.2 per cent of total assets.
"We do anticipate a continuation of the current softening trend in property values," the trust said. It expected such movement to be reasonably contained.

[scamper]

I take heart from the $52m representing only 2.5% of the portfolio.
furthermore, the 4cps was only topped by the last two payments -- it was 4cp in June last year.
surely that is rather good in the current times?

[CAM]

Kiwi Property trust moves into the red

4:00AM Friday Nov 14, 2008
By Anne Gibson (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/anne-gibson/news/headlines.cfm?a_id=39)


Rapidly falling property values have forced the biggest listed real estate entity into the red, with Kiwi Income Property Trust this week announcing a $31.3 million after-tax loss.
The trust, floated in 1993, has never made a loss before, according to one senior executive.
Buildings owned by the giant office block and mall landlord were devalued by $52 million, resulting in the "paper" or unrealised loss for the half year to September 30.
Kiwi released its result at the close of trade on Wednesday, showing how a blue chip portfolio previously valued at $2.09 billion was now worth just $2.05 billion and projected to be worth less soon.
Kiwi owns Vero, the country's most sophisticated and biggest office block on Shortland St in Auckland. That 40-level tower was devalued by $6.3 million in the half-year, appraised at $328 million at the end of September.
A $6.8 million drop in the value of the National Bank Centre on Queen St saw it valued at $117.8 million by September.


But Kiwi's mall in Porirua took the biggest hit, devalued by $14.8 million to $113 million.

Kiwi's giant Papanui mall in Christchurch lost $7.6 million in value and was worth $250 million at September and the trust's Hamilton mall dropped by $6.4 million to $122 million.
Sylvia Park, Kiwi's new Mt Wellington mall, bucked the trend, adding $2 million in value to hit $479.2 million but spare land surrounding that centre was written down by $5.4 million to $18.4 million. Kiwi has big plans to build a series of stage office blocks surrounding Sylvia Park.
Overall, the trust's retail properties saw $28.1 million of value wiped out and the properties were worth $1.1 billion at the end of September. The office portfolio was worth $841.7 million, down $15.6 million in the six months.
Kiwi's presentation, posted on its website, flagged more write-downs. But the valuation outlook got even grimmer when it mourned "lack of transactional evidence", a reference to so few property deals being made in the depressed market.
"Further value reductions anticipated, however these are likely to be reasonably contained, given the quality of the trust's portfolio," Kiwi's presentation said.
Sean Waring, chairman of Kiwi's manager, dismissed the devaluations saying the $52 million was only 2.5 per cent of the portfolio and such a small reduction was "testimony to the trust's defensive qualities."
ABN-Amro Craigs ranks Kiwi a "buy", praising it as the largest of the listed entities, having significant diversity and modest gearing of 28 per cent.
"While KIP has a high level of retail exposure, we take comfort that vacancy rates are at record lows, and that portfolio and tenant quality is high, so there is a lower likelihood of tenants exiting unexpectedly," ABN said last month.
Rob Foster and David Oxley of ABN issued a note this week after Kiwi flagged an 11 per cent drop in distributions to 8 cents a unit for the full year.
Kiwi was limiting its payout ratio to match underlying operating earnings, they said, praising this as a prudent move in the challenging property environment.
Mark Lister of ABN-Amro Craigs said listed property trusts like Kiwi paid out all their earnings so reducing distributions was effectively withholding earnings.
"Why do you withhold earnings, if you are confident about the next 12 months? Kiwi is right on the coalface of what New Zealand consumers are doing, how they are spending their money so to me it says 'we are being prudent and conservative; second we are taking a negative view of the economy and third Chris [Gudgeon], the new chief executive, doesn't want to be in a position where he's too optimistic and he will err on the side of caution."

[CAM]

$11.3m loss for Goodman after writedown
4:00AM Friday Nov 14, 2008
By Anne Gibson

The second-largest listed property vehicle, Goodman Property Trust, made an $11.3 million half-year loss after writing down the value of its real estate by $57 million.

Goodman announced its half-year result to September yesterday and its move out of profit and into loss mirrored that of the bigger Kiwi Income Property Trust.

Goodman, which owns $1.62 billion of properties and specialises is office parks and industrial real estate, has been hit by the downturn. In the same six-month period last year, the trust made $28.7 million net after-tax profit.

But chairman Jim McLay said the business had a good operational performance and its current debt level equated to 32 per cent of property assets.

The trust has cut its payout with its manager revising its forecast cash distribution for the 2009 year from 10.25 cents per unit to 10 cents per unit.

McLay said the global credit crisis was an extraordinary situation that has directly impacted on the value of most asset classes.


"A consequence of falling asset values and the increasing risk around corporate refinancing has been a renewed focus on the debt levels and available liquidity of all investment vehicles," he said.

"Management has deliberately pursued a conservative debt funding policy for the trust which has ensured it remains well capitalised."

John Dakin, chief executive of the trust's manager, said the vehicle was in good shape for worse times.

[Billy Boy]

KPF had quite a good half year report considering........
http://www.kermadecproperty.co.nz/Page.php?page=19
Am pleased to see they are focused on debt reduction
Presently at 38%. I wish they would ditch this DRP


ING Not so bad also... Projected 8c PIE divvy for 2009
Thats good %% against the banks.

Am told that a lot of $$$ going into GG finance coys.
Many investors trying to fix for 2 plus years @ around 9%

Things are a-chang'in
BB :)

[underground]

ING is looking quite attractive given that its div yield is over twice that which the major banks are offering??

in my opinion over the long term the market will catch on and will see the ING shareprice rerated at 80c at no time which is still an attractive 10% yield. its crazy that investors let the price get down this low

patience is the key, pays to stick with the DRP for the meantime, so those who buy in early can relax and enjoy the ride with the capital appreciation.

all we need is some confidence to return to the financial system.

[Billy Boy]

ING is looking quite attractive given that its div yield is over twice that which the major banks are offering??

in my opinion over the long term the market will catch on and will see the ING shareprice rerated at 80c at no time which is still an attractive 10% yield. its crazy that investors let the price get down this low

patience is the key, pays to stick with the DRP for the meantime, so those who buy in early can relax and enjoy the ride with the capital appreciation.

all we need is some confidence to return to the financial system.

I agree
I think LPT's are the best place to park funds at the moment with
their % returns.
Even the BBB rate finance companys cant match them
Marac, SCF, etc offering 9% - 9.25% for 4+ years.
Thats before tax and inflation not calculated.
As you may know, I have bought in big time. averaging 12.02%
(after tax & including divvy drops). So am happy to hold for a bit
as the cap gain will see to the inflation problem. :)
patience now is the 'name of the game'
Cheers to all BB :)

[777]

Not far from APT announcement but a reasonable sell off at present.

[Billy Boy]

Not far from APT announcement but a reasonable sell off at present.

Am waiting for this on as well.
Will they increase divvy or reduce debt ??
I think the small sell off is because folks out there are paying off
the Xmas bills. & Firms are a bit short of the reddies etc...
with the NTA at $1.48 they are looking good.
Will probably see an increase in SP about 3 - 4 weeks out from
Books Close Date , ING went up 5 cents by BK.
BB

[Dr_Who]

IT is hard to replace a good tenant if one goes in this tough environment. With firms falling like flies, you can lose tenants.

[Billy Boy]

IT is hard to replace a good tenant if one goes in this tough environment. With firms falling like flies, you can lose tenants.

QUITE SO DOC...
But be reminded they have good asset backing (not like a bank or a Finance coy)
They'll have to lose a lot of tenants to go broke !!!
BB

[Dr_Who]

BB, what do you think of ING?

Can they maintain their div?

[Billy Boy]

BB, what do you think of ING?

Can they maintain their div?

I think ING are probably the best buy at the moment
GMT running a close second.
reason
Ing have good developments going forward (albany). they are selling off
lessor properties to reduce debt. They seam to be positioning themselve
very nicely. Even if they reduce the divvy's to kill debt, that would be
good. I would support a reduced divvy if it was used to kill debt.
I am picking a slow turn around in the NZ econimy probably about end Q2.
Or at least a window looking forward.
Now if the LPT's have little debt and an upsurge in property requirements
then they (ING) are sitting right.
I went o/seas last month to Auckland. Spent some time being driven
around, dinned, woo,ed etc. looked at KPF, Hey they are not so bad
regardless of what "beacon" says, I think he has a personal snitcher.
GMT looked nice, but they are into joint ventures etc... therefore dont have that potential advantage that ING might have. I need a bit more
info yet, before feeling totaly sure.
Investor's have not clicked onto LPT"s yet, many dont know what they
are, and of couse "property" is still a dirty word.
A lawyer mate of mine " ooow I would'nt get into propert of any kind
for a lease 5 years yet, it's a doomed sector."
Me... "Ever heard of Listed Property Trusts"
Him... "What the hell are they ???"
Says it all...... eh? He is rather a proment lawyer, very well known.etc
So ING...Divvy maintained.... Yep
I came back home from Auchland with the Flue, and a few days later
developed pneumonia, 5 days in dry dock, so I'm Not a happy camper.
Thats my big OE for a while. Worst Motel, "Russel Motel ", in Russel, also the dearest. (Bloody terrible). All the rest... "great"
cheers BB:)

[beacon]

i don't remember ever commenting on KPF, BB.
Also, a sample size of 1 is inappropriate for any survey.
Wishing you well ...

[Billy Boy]

i don't remember ever commenting on KPF, BB.
Also, a sample size of 1 is inappropriate for any survey.
Wishing you well ...

Someone, a ways back was running Kermadec down, saying their properties were crap, a spin off from Cultus, and in urgent need of maintance etc... and if I dont believe them go and have a look for myself.
Well I did ! that was part of my big Xmas OE I was talking about.
I looked at lots of properties including KPF, ING, Gmt, KIP, Others ETC....
It was a working holiday, escorted by a valuer friend. Got a good feel for Auckland and the surounding area.
KPF did,nt fear bad
A sample of 1 ??? Dont know what you mean.
Beacon old son, If I got the name wrong then apologies etc. :)
Maybe GGG or Fung Pud can remember who it twas.
All the best
BB:)

[fungus pudding]

Someone, a ways back was running Kermadec down, saying their properties were crap, a spin off from Cultus, and in urgent need of maintance etc... and if I dont believe them go and have a look for myself.
Well I did ! that was part of my big Xmas OE I was talking about.
I looked at lots of properties including KPF, ING, Gmt, KIP, Others ETC....
It was a working holiday, escorted by a valuer friend. Got a good feel for Auckland and the surounding area.
KPF did,nt fear bad
A sample of 1 ??? Dont know what you mean.
Beacon old son, If I got the name wrong then apologies etc. :)
Maybe GGG or Fung Pud can remember who it twas.
All the best
BB:)


Can't remember who it was, but I can remember the post. I think KPF are excellent buying, although not totally familiar with all their properties - but income is damned hard to beat for a 39% tax payer, which in a way applies to all the pies, and they are all well above assett backing; only one that frightens me is NAP, and I'm not over keen on GPT, although most brokers rate it highly. Too much vacant land for my liking - good in boom times, but costly to sit on in times like this.

[Billy Boy]

ING 8.5 MIL UNITS traded up 2c
GMT 2 Mil units Traded
APT 500,000 units
Kip Not so many for size 500,000 SP down ??? hmmmm

I see a number of Finance coys now offering 6 - 7%

F-pud
Yes the old saying " vacant land earns nothing "
I did a drive around that new development ....Nice
GMT still have a good cash flow and tennants etc.
ING is the runner I feel.
Lets see what thing close at
cheers BB

[Billy Boy]

F/pud
NAP well yes, not a good look !!!! Speculative I would sugest.
Believe they are still trying to do mergers etc....
BB

[CAM]

Might be of interest to some of you re office supply....

Space for extra 7000 workers in CBD offices

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10553841&pnum=2

[Billy Boy]

BB, what do you think of ING?

Can they maintain their div?
KPF
The gross distribution for the quarter will be 1.791 cents per share. This will consist of 1.625 cents per share of cash, with 0.166 cents per share ofimputation credits attached. This distribution is in line with the company's November 2008 guidance for an annual cash distribution level of 6.5 cents per share. The record date for the distribution will be Thursday 5 February 2009, withpayment scheduled for Friday 13 February 2009

Doc
This is about a 13% div @ a SP of 50c
Makes me more confident ING (and others will hold).
Note the big buy up of ING (over 8 mil units)& GMT yesterday, seams
the insto's have confidence.....
BB:)

[beacon]

Beacon old son, If I got the name wrong then apologies etc. :)
BB:)

No offense taken. :)
by sample size of 1, i was referring to your inferring about the state of market from one person's opinion in the post before. I think for starters, a c 5% OCR reduction in 6 months in NZ tells more about where we are headed. Cheers.

[Billy Boy]

No offense taken. :)
by sample size of 1, i was referring to your inferring about the state of market from one person's opinion in the post before. I think for starters, a c 5% OCR reduction in 6 months in NZ tells more about where we are headed. Cheers.

Deposits in banks & Finance coy's is not going to be a good return in the long term future. This is one reason the Resv Bank is pushing the OCR down. they want us to invest our money where it can do some good.
I dont agree with this terrible bleek out look that will last forever.
& coz the OCR is low (and likely to go lower ) should not impeed good investing, it is a very deliberate move by the RB, they want these "money under the bed types" to get going and thinking and investing.
Banks are out biggest problem at the moment IMO.
Putting funds into private mortgages with low intest rates is a con for
all. They are only doing it short term for PR advantage "look good".
Mortgage rates will slowly creep up again coz of the banks o/seas
borrowing.
IMO they should be helping SMALL - medium BIZZ's, coz thats where the jobs etc are.
We are not being served very well by these ozzy owned banks.
LPT's are not going to fall over tomorrow regardless of the OCR.
In fact a low OCR will help them....think about it.
TWO - three year time most LPTs will back close the their NTA's,
and in the meantime investers have picked up some nice cheap units
with a good cap gain and a reasonable divvy whilst waiting :).
cheers BB
P.s. this post should stir some heckels !!! ;)

[Billy Boy]

I should have added
ING traded *8.5+ million units yesterday.
Most of the trades were SP. and just after the OCR announcement
Does,ent that say something ????
BB

[CAM]

The big thing is if they can maintain their dividends in the tough times.
This would depend on the tenants and quality of them.

I went into Hamilton today to get the wife a birthday present.
Called into Centre Place the city shopping mall. Noticed a couple of empty shops.
One used to be a sporting goods /footwear shop I think...still had the closing down sale signs on the window. The other one that was empty used to be a Cash Convertors. I can't help but think that with the tougher times we will see more empty shops. Retail shops are the visible ones, but there must be other businesses/industries struggling as well.

So I would say before buying a LPT do your research. The current dividend might be payable but will it still be like that in 6 months time???

[fungus pudding]

The big thing is if they can maintain their dividends in the tough times.
This would depend on the tenants and quality of them.

I went into Hamilton today to get the wife a birthday present.
Called into Centre Place the city shopping mall. Noticed a couple of empty shops.
One used to be a sporting goods /footwear shop I think...still had the closing down sale signs on the window. The other one that was empty used to be a Cash Convertors. I can't help but think that with the tougher times we will see more empty shops. Retail shops are the visible ones, but there must be other businesses/industries struggling as well.

So I would say before buying a LPT do your research. The current dividend might be payable but will it still be like that in 6 months time???

They may well drop dividends as a result of vacancies for a while. But the assett remains and over time the NTA will return. It's hard to that say of most businesse that will lose turnover in the next few years. Overall the LPTs seem to be a screaming bargain.

[Bouncerdog]

I've put a sizeable chunk of my investment funds in LPT's after previously being a landlord of industrial properties. PFI and ING have been knocked back but still seem sound, as far as I can see.

But my other pick - across the ditch - was ING Industrial Fund and that has fallen over big time. 52 week range 229 - 9.4 :eek: (currently 15). Ouch!

Now then, at that price is it in the shopping basket as a bargain or is it a basket case?

Interested to hear if any of you NZ property watchers have an opinion.

[fungus pudding]

I've put a sizeable chunk of my investment funds in LPT's after previously being a landlord of industrial properties. PFI and ING have been knocked back but still seem sound, as far as I can see.

But my other pick - across the ditch - was ING Industrial Fund and that has fallen over big time. 52 week range 229 - 9.4 :eek: (currently 15). Ouch!

Now then, at that price is it in the shopping basket as a bargain or is it a basket case?

Interested to hear if any of you NZ property watchers have an opinion.


Good on you. NZ LPTs at present prices seem just to goood to be true. Especially as they are all PIES, which is a huge advantage to a 39% tax payer. ING, KIP, KPF are my favourites. A lot of brokers recommend GPT and APT, but I'm not so keen. Not too sure about Aussie property although I've got a heap of Centro MCS, which are syndicated properties managed by Centro. Their listed properties have been disastrous as have many Aussie LPTs. But NZ stuff is being given away - so why look any further? Like you were, I still am an investor in commercial and industrial, but nothing compares with the LPTs so I don't even bother looking these days. Keep your eye out for DNZ - soon to be listed but not on main board. I reckon they will get given away for first few months, and they have some good properties. NTA is $1. I'm picking half price or less.

[beacon]

very stimulating argument BB. I have nothing against NZ LPTs, my thrust is that Ozzie ones are a better proposition and natural currency hedge - although less so the latter with the NZD currently down miserably. Cheers.

[beacon]

[QUOTE=Bouncerdog;241928]But my other pick - across the ditch - was ING Industrial Fund and that has fallen over big time. 52 week range 229 - 9.4 :eek: (currently 15). Ouch!
QUOTE]


http://business.watoday.com.au/business/ing-industrial-destroys-trust-20081212-6xf2.html

[Bouncerdog]

Thanks Beacon and funguspudding.

I had seen that article and would agree that the management behaved in a way that is very close to misleading. Even allowing for that, the company doesn't look in that poor a shape.

A thread on Hot Copper - iif is no centro - seems to sum it up nicely. (Is it Ok to post that link here? )

http://www.hotcopper.com.au/post_threadview.asp?fid=1&tid=826063#3717677

But then again the analysts at Aspect Huntley rate it as too risky and to be avoided. And there seems to be steady institutional selling down with a number of announcements of reduced holdings.

So I continue to be confused. And cautious. But still very interested in a possible bargain....:confused:

[fungus pudding]

Thanks Beacon and funguspudding.

I had seen that article and would agree that the management behaved in a way that is very close to misleading. Even allowing for that, the company doesn't look in that poor a shape.

A thread on Hot Copper - iif is no centro - seems to sum it up nicely. (Is it Ok to post that link here? )

http://www.hotcopper.com.au/post_threadview.asp?fid=1&tid=826063#3717677

But then again the analysts at Aspect Huntley rate it as too risky and to be avoided. And there seems to be steady institutional selling down with a number of announcements of reduced holdings.

So I continue to be confused. And cautious. But still very interested in a possible bargain....:confused:


The difference between Aust. LPTs and the NZ ones seems mainly to be in the gearing. NZ borrowing is conservative - usually around the 35% level, whereas in Australia the tick them up to the eyeballs. And gearing works both ways; if real eatate prices drop it's against you, and at present there's almost certainly more downside than upside.

[Billy Boy]

I have been watching the ozzy LPT's and trying to get to grips
with the ozz situation.
Property is ozz does not seam to be as an important issue as here.
I think a lot of it is to do with the fact that ozz is flat and there is
heaps of room for expantion, whereas in NZ flat land is in short supply.
Especially close to the cities, so I feel there is a difference.
My research suggests nz LPT's to be the best and the moment with
their high returns and the PIE factor.
Like a previous poster, I now am no longer a com. property landlord
and have invested substantialy into nz lpt's.
I favour ING, KPF, KIP & gmt
BB

[beacon]

A thread on Hot Copper - iif is no centro - seems to sum it up nicely. (Is it Ok to post that link here? )

http://www.hotcopper.com.au/post_threadview.asp?fid=1&tid=826063#3717677



Might be better to post content directly, as hotcopper allows access to content only to hotcopper members. just a thought ....

[fungus pudding]

I have been watching the ozzy LPT's and trying to get to grips
with the ozz situation.
Property is ozz does not seam to be as an important issue as here.
I think a lot of it is to do with the fact that ozz is flat and there is
heaps of room for expantion, whereas in NZ flat land is in short supply.
Especially close to the cities, so I feel there is a difference.
My research suggests nz LPT's to be the best and the moment with
their high returns and the PIE factor.
Like a previous poster, I now am no longer a com. property landlord
and have invested substantialy into nz lpt's.
I favour ING, KPF, KIP & gmt
BB

Close to the cities is the key, and in that respect Aussie is not really different from NZ. I'm not sure why you say property doesn't seem as important. Yields are ridiculously low, and the last time I looked in the Gold Coast, investors were cueing up to buy industrial buildings, even off the plans, with no tenant in sight anywhere. There were heaps of small buildings going up. This was around 5 years ago and many are still vacant. They have never been let.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

You cannot compare most Aust property trusts with the NZ property trusts as the Tax treatment is quite different. NZ trusts are taxed as companies. Australian trusts pay virtually no tax but must pass profits through to shareholders who are then taxed.

[Billy Boy]

Close to the cities is the key, and in that respect Aussie is not really different from NZ. I'm not sure why you say property doesn't seem as important. Yields are ridiculously low, and the last time I looked in the Gold Coast, investors were cueing up to buy industrial buildings, even off the plans, with no tenant in sight anywhere. There were heaps of small buildings going up. This was around 5 years ago and many are still vacant. They have never been let.

Anozzy friend of mine say the same thing. He says over supply.
He also suggests , complexes like Aust Fair are doing well,one stop
shop all under cover with parking and kid dumping facilities.
I am still warey of ozz at this stage.
BB:)
ps Might do another big OE, go and have a look.
pps cheaper than going to auckland.

[Dr_Who]

Can someone pls explain this? Thanks.

ING
04/02/2009
GENERAL

REL: 0939 HRS ING Property Trust

GENERAL: ING: ING announces change of Manager ownership and control

As previously advised, Symphony Investments (2007) Limited ("Symphony") and
ING (NZ) Limited ("INGNZ") have been in discussions regarding INGNZ
purchasing Symphony's 50% shareholding in ING Property Trust Management
Limited (the "Manager"), the manager of ING Property Trust.

INGNZ has today taken full ownership and control of the Manager after
completing the purchase of Symphony's shareholding.
End CA:00175716 For:ING Type:GENERAL Time:2009-02-04:09:39:48

[Snow Leopard]

Can someone pls explain this? Thanks.

ING
04/02/2009
GENERAL

REL: 0939 HRS ING Property Trust

GENERAL: ING: ING announces change of Manager ownership and control

As previously advised, Symphony Investments (2007) Limited ("Symphony") and
ING (NZ) Limited ("INGNZ") have been in discussions regarding INGNZ
purchasing Symphony's 50% shareholding in ING Property Trust Management
Limited (the "Manager"), the manager of ING Property Trust.

INGNZ has today taken full ownership and control of the Manager after
completing the purchase of Symphony's shareholding.
End CA:00175716 For:ING Type:GENERAL Time:2009-02-04:09:39:48

I can not even begin to comprehend how anyone could fail to understand such a straight forward and simple announcement.

[Dr_Who]

PT :confused:

I mean the implications for ING on such a transaction? The sp have dropped today. Why is ING sp so weak?

[POSSUM THE CAT]

DR WHO they probally paid to much for it so will want to increase the management fees

[fungus pudding]

Can someone pls explain this? Thanks.

ING
04/02/2009
GENERAL

REL: 0939 HRS ING Property Trust

GENERAL: ING: ING announces change of Manager ownership and control

As previously advised, Symphony Investments (2007) Limited ("Symphony") and
ING (NZ) Limited ("INGNZ") have been in discussions regarding INGNZ
purchasing Symphony's 50% shareholding in ING Property Trust Management
Limited (the "Manager"), the manager of ING Property Trust.

INGNZ has today taken full ownership and control of the Manager after
completing the purchase of Symphony's shareholding.
End CA:00175716 For:ING Type:GENERAL Time:2009-02-04:09:39:48


Management contract of ING property trust was owned 50% by Symphony - whoever they are - and 50% by ING NZ. Symphony have sold their 50% to ING NZ. So from now on ING NZ will manage ING properties.

[beacon]

Lesser observant eyes ...?
or Vertical integration ...?

[Billy Boy]

http://www.sharechat.co.nz/news/scnews/article.php/e132f891
I cant see any bad news in this buyout at all.
BB:)

[fungus pudding]

http://www.sharechat.co.nz/news/scnews/article.php/e132f891
I cant see any bad news in this buyout at all.
BB:)


Neither can I. It won't alter the management contract.

[Billy Boy]

APT holds up well.
In announcing ANZO's interim financial results, Mr Lang said ANZO investors will receive a net second-quarter distribution of 1.824 cents per unit plus imputation credits of 0.273 cents per unit. ANZO's total gross distribution for the interim period is 4.3 percent higher than 2008 on a gross basis (or 1.4 percent net).

The record date for the second-quarter distribution is 20 February 2009 and payment will be made on 27 February.
BB:D

[Snapper]

APT holds up well.
In announcing ANZO's interim financial results, Mr Lang said ANZO investors will receive a net second-quarter distribution of 1.824 cents per unit plus imputation credits of 0.273 cents per unit. ANZO's total gross distribution for the interim period is 4.3 percent higher than 2008 on a gross basis (or 1.4 percent net).

The record date for the second-quarter distribution is 20 February 2009 and payment will be made on 27 February.
BB:D


What puzzles me about that announcement is that they announced a net loss for the six months without having the results of their revaluations through yet. Have they sold some buildings at a loss recently?

[777]

What puzzles me about that announcement is that they announced a net loss for the six months without having the results of their revaluations through yet. Have they sold some buildings at a loss recently?

This was in their announcement...

According to the International Financial Reporting Standards (IFRS), which
requires ANZO to take into account non-cash items, ANZO reported a net loss
of $4.97 million for the period. This was largely due to an unrealised
$39.68 million loss on its interest rate swaps as at the end of the interim
period. Mr Lang noted this loss is unrealised and not unexpected given the
significant fall in the OCR and unusual capital market environment.
Importantly, the loss does not affect the profit available for distribution
to investors.

[Dr_Who]

Why is ING sp so weak?

Will there be any div cut?

[fungus pudding]

What puzzles me about that announcement is that they announced a net loss for the six months without having the results of their revaluations through yet. Have they sold some buildings at a loss recently?


No. Report says an unrealised loss. It will be based on valuations.

[Billy Boy]

Why is ING sp so weak?

Will there be any div cut?
they have their tennancy agreements etc locking in for three
- four years out so I dont think cash flow is their problem.
MFL are selling down big time and this I feel is spooking the
market. I havent gone back to try and see who is buying ??
Coz there must be a buyer. Anybody ???
MFL is one of these fund managers (managed by ING) that is
scrambling for cash to get out of their CDO's , CFO's etc so
need the ready's, like NOW.
There could be a divvy decrease but I dont think so coz the
others are holding up. ING still have about 36 - 38% leverage
(Fung- Pud might know the exact %%%). this is not really a
problem as they have the necessary forward cover at about
8.7%. From memory.
I wish they would lower the divvy and retire debt.
All in All I still think they are the cheapest buy on the market
at the moment in relation to their div %.

[Dr_Who]

I agree with you BB.

Unfortunately MFL has over 28% holding left to sell. They cant possibly sell this on the market.

I will sit on the sideline and wait. Still on my watchlist.

[fungus pudding]

they have their tennancy agreements etc locking in for three
- four years out so I dont think cash flow is their problem.
MFL are selling down big time and this I feel is spooking the
market. I havent gone back to try and see who is buying ??
Coz there must be a buyer. Anybody ???
MFL is one of these fund managers (managed by ING) that is
scrambling for cash to get out of their CDO's , CFO's etc so
need the ready's, like NOW.
There could be a divvy decrease but I dont think so coz the
others are holding up. ING still have about 36 - 38% leverage
(Fung- Pud might know the exact %%%). this is not really a
problem as they have the necessary forward cover at about
8.7%. From memory.
I wish they would lower the divvy and retire debt.
All in All I still think they are the cheapest buy on the market
at the moment in relation to their div %.

Sorry, I don't know exact figures off hand, but somewhere around what you say. I agree that lowering the divvy and retiring debt would be the ideal; the biggest downside to these (probably most?) shares is the issuing of extra units in lieu of dividends through the reinvestment plans. These schemes are disastorous when shares are being issued at a huge discount to NTA, as they are in this weak market. It simply dilutes the real NTA. Fortunately the take-up is low. But still would be fairer to reduce debt by a lowering of divvy for a while.

[beacon]

And that will hurt its sp in the short term. Vicious circle, eh?

[fungus pudding]

And that will hurt its sp in the short term. Vicious circle, eh?



Yes. In theory if these reinvestment schemes are taken right to their conclusion the NTA must eventually reduce to the share price.

[777]

Good write up in this morning's Herald on LPT's. Unable to find a link.

[fungus pudding]

Good write up in this morning's Herald on LPT's. Unable to find a link.


I presume you mean this article.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/property/news/article.cfm?c_id=8&objectid=10556056&pnum=2

[777]

Yes that's it. Should have looked under the property section instead of business.

[Billy Boy]

I received a brochure in the mail inviting me to a presentation.
Speaker,s :- Peter Mence & Stuart Harrison.
It seams they are going all round the place,
Who else got one ??
Agenda :-
Current & pending activities,
Credit Crunch,
ING(NZ) as manager,
Gearing & asset sales,
Diversification,
Financial overview.
I am listing a number of questions.
A bit of a P*** up afterwards.
BB :)

[fungus pudding]

I received a brochure in the mail inviting me to a presentation.
Speaker,s :- Peter Mence & Stuart Harrison.
It seams they are going all round the place,
Who else got one ??
Agenda :-
Current & pending activities,
Credit Crunch,
ING(NZ) as manager,
Gearing & asset sales,
Diversification,
Financial overview.
I am listing a number of questions.
A bit of a P*** up afterwards.
BB :)


I did. Just the usual annual rah-rah session. Best part of it last year was the catering - but no booze. Mind you it was a bit early in the day.

[Billy Boy]

I did. Just the usual annual rah-rah session. Best part of it last year was the catering - but no booze. Mind you it was a bit early in the day.

Would they endevour to answer questions or would I get the usual
generalisations or "thats up to the board" ... etc....
Coz I would like to have a go over the DRP & leveraging.
Waisting my time ???
I have to drive to Invergumboot ya see. And I dont want to do that
just for a nice cup of tea !!!
cheers BB :)

[fungus pudding]

Would they endevour to answer questions or would I get the usual
generalisations or "thats up to the board" ... etc....
Coz I would like to have a go over the DRP & leveraging.
Waisting my time ???
I have to drive to Invergumboot ya see. And I dont want to do that
just for a nice cup of tea !!!
cheers BB :)


Well, I don't know how far from Invergiggle you are, but if it's only half an hour or so, it's probably worthwhile. I asked a couple of questions last time and definitely got reasonable replies. Of even more value I got the chance to yap to them afterwards. Overall the presentation was good, but there's been plenty of water under the bridge since then to catch up on. From memory I think they made a downloadable power point of their slides available, which is better than nothing. Since then I have rung Peter Mence and discussed the DRP with him. Very very good to chat to, and had all the time in the world to talk to a shareholder. So it probably is worth your while. I don't sell things so will own these till they put me in the box, so I make a bit of an effort to attend. Besides, it's a good opportunity to indulge in my favourite pastime of counting ridiculous cliches at seminars. 'Going forward' is still in the lead and spouted frequently by these presenters. I'm picking 14 times between them this time.:):)

[Billy Boy]

and I'm not over keen on GPT, although most brokers rate it highly. Too much vacant land for my liking - good in boom times, but costly to sit on in times like this.
.
Seams you are away ahead of me F/pud.
I used to have GPT high in my peaking order, but reading the latest
refinancing announcement and debt levels now at 33.5%, and as you
say " Too much vacant land", I have dropped them a notch or two.
I think I will go to this Rah Rah meet in Invergumboot on the 4th, (ING)
if only to have a nag. A good excuse to go the the Crib and do some
fishing.
BB :)

[Lawso]

Posted by fungus:
it's a good opportunity to indulge in my favourite pastime of counting ridiculous cliches at seminars. 'Going forward' is still in the lead and spouted frequently by these presenters. I'm picking 14 times between them this time
I wonder how many issues will be addressed at this point in time.

[fungus pudding]

Posted by fungus:
I wonder how many issues will be addressed at this point in time.


None. The reality is all the issues will be addressed as we speak.

[Lawso]

While you're about it, fungus, you should advise the chairman that all such cliches should be avoided like the plague.

[fungus pudding]

While you're about it, fungus, you should advise the chairman that all such cliches should be avoided like the plague.

That's their judgement call.
I think they'll use every window of opportunity to use cliches.

[fungus pudding]

Cliche count at Dunedin presentation of the ING annual investor update. First speaker, Stuart Harrison, came out with four 'going forwards'.
Second speaker, Peter Mence, used 'going forward' five times.
Although I wouldn't declare Peter the outright winner, as Stuart managed a brand new variation 'rolling forward' This is approximately half the 'going forwards' counted at the 2008 presentation. .:D:D:D

[scamper]

good one fp!
i also like the reality check of counting the "very reals" -- there's an inverse proportion...

[fungus pudding]

good one fp!
i also like the reality check of counting the "very reals" -- there's an inverse proportion...


I went to another business presentation yesterday, and lost count of 'the reality is'. It seemed to start almost every sentence.

[Billy Boy]

FP
Did you learn anything
I went to the one in Invergumboot, Lost count of the "looking forward,s"
"the reality is", " problem is the credit crisis", "as a result of the credit
crisis" etc.....
They have 10% uptake on the DRP system
All in all not a bad show, Too many reporters to ask the hard Q's
and they had no time to chat after the show, but have been asked to
email them.
BB

[fungus pudding]

FP
Did you learn anything
I went to the one in Invergumboot, Lost count of the "looking forward,s"
"the reality is", " problem is the credit crisis", "as a result of the credit
crisis" etc.....
They have 10% uptake on the DRP system
All in all not a bad show, Too many reporters to ask the hard Q's
and they had no time to chat after the show, but have been asked to
email them.
BB


Didn't really learn much that I didn't know. Didn't have time to hang around after presentation to pick their brains. I'm always impressed with Peter Mence - straight shooter. But like everyone else in the entire planet at the moment they're flying blind. Nobody quite knows what happens next! So I'm none the wiser, but think I'll pick up another few shares some time soon. That's if I've still got any money, or whether I have to declare bancruptcy when they've worked my tax out. All I know is anyone who buys to hold should do exceptionally well one day (whenever 'one day' is). The dividend return is so high on current price - who can afford not to be in?

[Dr_Who]

I am thinking of buying some ING.

How much will they cut the current div at the next announcement?

[fungus pudding]

I am thinking of buying some ING.

How much will they cut the current div at the next announcement?


Who knows? Depends on rent reviews and valuations. If valuations drop much then they may have to repay some loans to maintain loan to value ratio. It won't be a huge drop. (fingers crossed)

[croesus]

Can anybody enlighten me .. on this deal between St L and NAP .. re notice today...

disc definately not a holder.

cheers, Croesus

[Snow Leopard]

Can anybody enlighten me .. on this deal between St L and NAP .. re notice today...


Cast List:
St Laurence Limited: A limited company which
a) owns 100% of the shares in St Laurence Property & Finance Limited
b) owns 100% of the shares in The National Property Trust Limited
c) owns units in the The National Property Trust
St Laurence Property & Finance Limited: A limited company which owns units in the The National Property Trust
The National Property Trust: A trust which owns property and whose units are quoted on the NZX aka NAP
The National Property Trust Limited: A limited company which manages The National Property Trust and owns units in the The National Property Trust

What ?
The notice publishes an agreement for The National Property Trust Limited (the Manager) to buy, if it so desires, all the units of the The National Property Trust (the Trust) that are currently owned by St Laurence Limited (the Parent Company of the Manager) within a fixed time frame months at a fixed price.

Why ?
Ask Kevin !

regards
Paper Tiger

[croesus]

Seems a bit dodgy...is this the guy tied up with the failed finance company... that used to be lauded by that iffy advisor chap from Paraparumu ?

[westerly]

Paper Tiger,

I think St laurence have about 31% of the shares in St. Laurence P. & F
Regards
Westerly

[Snow Leopard]

Paper Tiger,

I think St laurence have about 31% of the shares in St. Laurence P. & F
Regards
Westerly

Welcome Westerly

According to the Companies Office (http://www.companies.govt.nz/) all 149,497,566 of ST LAURENCE PROPERTY & FINANCE LIMITED shares are held by ST LAURENCE LIMITED, which is how I came up with 100%.
However I believe you are correct, I forgot that they are listed on Unlisted (http://www.unlisted.co.nz/uPublic/unlisted.mt_public.securityDetail?p_prtp_id=141) following on from all the goings on at the end of 2008 when the note holders became shareholders.

regards
Paper Tiger

got to watch out for these damn whippersnapper new posters with no respect for us old folk

[Lawso]

posted by Croesus:Seems a bit dodgy...is this the guy tied up with the failed finance company... that used to be lauded by that iffy advisor chap from Paraparumu ?

Croesus, you should find about a bit more about the topic before posting such posting such utter tosh.

[croesus]

So Lawso.... are you saying you would be happy to give all your money.. to Chris Lee.. to clip the ticket..and then invest on your behalf in a company run by Kev... your starting to sound like a Tui advert mate !!!! or maybe you did !

[Billy Boy]

Croesus, you should find about a bit more about the topic before posting such posting such utter tosh.

With you Lawso :)
BB

[Lawso]

Croesus: I do my own research and my own investing, mostly online. I've only once been in a managed fund and I've never paid for financial advice. But if I did want to hand all the responsibility over to a broker or adviser Lee would be one of my first choices. IMO he rates at or near the top for integrity and know-how. Repeat, integrity.

[croesus]

Integrity ?? Lawso... hmmp

Lawso
I guess you are entitled to your Opinion... as are Clare and John Lindsay.. retired .... who on asking Chris Lee for a conservative portfolio.. ended up with a worthless bundle of St Laurence notes, Dorchestor debentures, Hanover Capital Pref Shares.. thats good... North and South notes... shakes Head.. ( theres more.. but the point is made)

Chris Lee's work was rubbished by a Senior Spicers Planner....as a portfolio a DIY newbie would present.....

Read Rob Stocks article in Sunday Star Times.. a couple of weeks back...

Integrity.... yeah right..

cheers Lawso, and Bob.

ps... hav'nt seen any legal action against Sunday Star Times or Spicers yet... wonder why

[Lawso]

So let's agree to disagree. I see no point in continuing this silly argument.

[croesus]

Fair enough.... Lawso I am getting bored with this....I just get peeved with so called advisors who put themselves on a pedastal.... and then the misguided preaching "integrity" to me .. so lets stop now....on the evidence I have presented....you obviously agree your original statement was in your words " utter tosh".....

no hard feelings.... to be fair to Chris Lee we all foul up every now and then....and it was probably one of his staff who wrote the afore mentioned disaster of a portfolio.... and compared to the Blue Chip scum he is a Saint.

cheers Croesus.

[Excelsior]

Can someone give me a quick lesson on what is meant by Cap Rate which is frequently referred to in LPT literature, I know that when NAV falls the Cap Rate rises but what exactly is it - a ratio?

[fungus pudding]

Can someone give me a quick lesson on what is meant by Cap Rate which is frequently referred to in LPT literature, I know that when NAV falls the Cap Rate rises but what exactly is it - a ratio?


It's the capitilisation rate. Yes it's the ratio formed by the price relative to income. A building with a rental income of 100,000 capitalised at 10% makes the building worth $1 mlllion.
If the prevailing cap rates for say an industrial building in Boomtown is 8% then by knowing the rent, you can quickly establish it's value. An 8% cap rate means the bldg is worth 12.5 times the rent. (100 divided by 8 = 12.5) So if it's returning 60k the value will be 750k.
It all gets a bit confusing as most commercial bldgs are net leases (tenant pays outgoings) so cap rate is accurate. Unfortunately most residential properties quote cap rates on the gross income, which strictly speaking is incorrect. Should be on the net.

[Excelsior]

Thnx for that. Thinking of buying some KIP at current levels but came across a Herald article from Feb 4 with Bruce Sheppard quoted as below

Shareholders Association chairman Bruce Sheppard criticised the LPT sector generally and warned against it.
He said reading research reports without taking into account the somewhat unusual structure of LPTs or the future of their businesses was flawed.
"The NTAs are the asset values unencumbered by a management contract," Sheppard said. "The discount has always been an issue with these stocks as the management arrangements, in essence, encumber the assets by the unbreakable costs of management which are often not value for money."
LPTs appeared to be good value now but he questioned how long this would last because the sector depended on rents flowing regularly, and current rates were unrealistic, particularly in large shopping centres.
"The divided yields are currently attractive and may well be reasonably sustainable until the tenants start falling over which is likely, especially for retail funds which all have grossly over-sold retail space and are a disaster just waiting to happen."

Is situation any worse for LPTs than other companies. Management still does well as shareholders suffer.

[fungus pudding]

Thnx for that. Thinking of buying some KIP at current levels but came across a Herald article from Feb 4 with Bruce Sheppard quoted as below

Shareholders Association chairman Bruce Sheppard criticised the LPT sector generally and warned against it.
He said reading research reports without taking into account the somewhat unusual structure of LPTs or the future of their businesses was flawed.
"The NTAs are the asset values unencumbered by a management contract," Sheppard said. "The discount has always been an issue with these stocks as the management arrangements, in essence, encumber the assets by the unbreakable costs of management which are often not value for money."
LPTs appeared to be good value now but he questioned how long this would last because the sector depended on rents flowing regularly, and current rates were unrealistic, particularly in large shopping centres.
"The divided yields are currently attractive and may well be reasonably sustainable until the tenants start falling over which is likely, especially for retail funds which all have grossly over-sold retail space and are a disaster just waiting to happen."

Is situation any worse for LPTs than other companies. Management still does well as shareholders suffer.

To answer last point first: no worse, but in my view a hell of a lot safer because owning buildings doesn't really require great skill, therefore lower risk. Shepard is partly right; there are management costs, but unavoidable for an individual who wants to get involved with substantial commercial properties. I'm not sure that retail rents are as vulnerable as he thinks, it's anyone's guess, but NZ seems to be reasonably safe. At current prices I reckon some LPTs are a steal, KIP being one. I like ING. I only invest in real estate, and real estate shares. Don't know the first thing about other shares, except they all seem too risky to me compared to a pile of bricks on a commercial or industrial site..

[777]

Tend to agree but drop in interest rates will help negate a reduction in rentals. Really all depends on how far this downturn goes as far as vacancies are concerned. PFI have maintained their dividend this time round so hopefully the others can also. The PIE effect on net returns cannot be sneezed at. I hold both KIP and APT. THe KIP since 1996.

[Billy Boy]

Interesting to note how The LPT's are bearing up under the lastest
revaluations.
Ing seam to be preforming (SP wise) best with a slight rise.
Gmt taking a bit of a hammering. Too much bear land I feel.
Apt getting smacked. Too much office space (Govt stuff)
Kip I dont know why
Kermadec dropping their divvy to 1.5c P/Unit, Debt getting up a bit
Nap well,,,,,,,,
Pfi Held up well for quite a bit but showing sign's of the wobbles.
Others thoughts ??
BB:)

[777]

I think there is a big enough buffer between the share price and the ever changing NTA in most of them. Most trade at a reasonable discount. Stand to be corrected here though.

[sharer]

Any news or recent advances in understanding Nat Prop Trust (NAP)?

Seems recent "review" by St Laurence related Managers resulted in literally "do nothing".
Recent weeks trading maybe slightly more often, but price slowly sagging even more.
Is somebody quietly filling a cupboard with cheap shares & preparing a corporate play?

[Billy Boy]

Any news or recent advances in understanding Nat Prop Trust (NAP)?

Is somebody quietly filling a cupboard with cheap shares & preparing a corporate play?

It could really happen that way, and was thinking like that myself.

Partaking of G&T's with some of the 'Great White Southern Farthers'
There's a lot of talk about the comming budget in May.
Some talk about "means testing" & the reintroduction of "land tax"( dont
forget land tax is still law, its just set at zero at the moment).
A capitial gains tax on property was a hot topic.
Other stuff off thread of course..........
Billy Smurf has gotta get money from somewhere.
Some of these could impact on the LPT's.
Land tax & a Cap Gain tax. I dont quite know about the effects of these.
F/Pud
Is land Tax likely to be covered in the OPEX's,
cheers BB :)

[fungus pudding]

It could really happen that way, and was thinking like that myself.

Partaking of G&T's with some of the 'Great White Southern Farthers'
There's a lot of talk about the comming budget in May.
Some talk about "means testing" & the reintroduction of "land tax"( dont
forget land tax is still law, its just set at zero at the moment).
A capitial gains tax on property was a hot topic.
Other stuff off thread of course..........
Billy Smurf has gotta get money from somewhere.
Some of these could impact on the LPT's.
Land tax & a Cap Gain tax. I dont quite know about the effects of these.
F/Pud
Is land Tax likely to be covered in the OPEX's,
cheers BB :)


If you mean is it tenant's responsibility ? Impossible to know without reading each individual lease. I don't think land tax or capital gains taxes are very likely. I do think the IRD might just become a little more vigilant in applyingg income tax to traders.

[Billy Boy]

Yep I hear you
In the present times they are... ??:confused:
Maybe we should ask the question(s).... "going forward", "Having regard too" "taking into account" " due too" etc etc.... "bearing in mind" of course. " without regard to the realitive possabilities" going forward.
..............:eek:... fff****in hell
do they read this forum ???
Geezzz
BB:)

PS they dont reply !!!

[troyvdh]

...in my many years i have never seen a buy/ sell differential like PFI today....

hold PFI
ramping....yea ok

[macduffy]

...in my many years i have never seen a buy/ sell differential like PFI today....

hold PFI
ramping....yea ok

Relax, troyvdh.

PFI is just a small, thinly traded stock.
Not a lot of keen buyers for this type of industrial property stock in current circumstances.

;)

[troyvdh]

...totally relaxed.......mmmmmmm...look at depth.......thanks anyway.......

[voltage]

tell me is it time to start buying property trusts or is there further down side.
Thinking about buying a residential rental but with the yield may be gearing into a few property trusts could be a wise investment.

[fungus pudding]

tell me is it time to start buying property trusts or is there further down side.
Thinking about buying a residential rental but with the yield may be gearing into a few property trusts could be a wise investment.


It's hard to know the answer, but I reckon it might just never get better buying than current prices. Sure as hell beats residential anyway - that's not for the feint hearted. Don't forget all listed trusts are PIEs.

[Billy Boy]

Thinking about buying a residential rental but with the yield may be gearing into a few property trusts could be a wise investment.
Voltage..... Do your sums
The cost of a residential rental & %% return on investment.
Add in :- rates, down time, mataince, the odd bad tennant, Taxables,
Mortgage, & IRD looking hard at you.
Now look at the LPT's
No hassels as in the above. No tax as they are PIE's. Just collect
the hoot.
Property values will return. Be it 2 -3 yrs time, but in the meantime
you are getting 10% - 13% on your investment (tax free) !!!

I have a lot of my money in these things. Started buying in when they
were higher, but have been steadly averaging down. In these times
I can find no better place for an investment, and am certainly not sorry
with what I have done. In fact when things do pick up I will be
reluctant sell because of the income.
Cheers BB :)

[777]

It will be interesting the take up on APT rights issue and KIP unit purchase plan next week.

[Billy Boy]

It will be interesting the take up on APT rights issue and KIP unit purchase plan next week.

Yes it will
I wonder about APT..... Market pricing them down....Mostly office space
..... Expensive buildings (hard to sell)..... Govt spending comming under
the hammer... hmmmmm
Maybe the 2:00pm budget will shed some light. :eek:
BB

[macduffy]

I don't hold APT although I have in the past.

The reason I sold them (and KIP) is that the property trust model seems to encourage managers to borrow and issue more shares to enhance their own income - usually a percentage of the trust's total portfolio value/income - without this necessarily being in the interests of unitholders.
However, I wouldn't be too worried about any attempts by the govt to reduce the bureaucracy. The usual result of such action is to put a lid on growth - for a year or two - then it's back to business as usual.

;)

[voltage]

thanks for your comments
I have broker reports that suggest APT is certainly a must in a property portfolio. They all have their good and bad points. May look at a spread over the 5 property trusts. I would appreciate any comments.

[Balance]

Yes it will
I wonder about APT..... Market pricing them down....Mostly office space
..... Expensive buildings (hard to sell)..... Govt spending comming under
the hammer... hmmmmm
Maybe the 2:00pm budget will shed some light. :eek:
BB

APT is not in the business of selling properties. It buys with a view to growing rentals and capital values. Overgearing is the problem which has resulted in the other property trusts especially in Australia having to fire-sell properties.

Now is the time to buy, not sell, I would have thought.

[Dr_Who]

I bought some APT rights the other day at 6 cents.

A good long term portfolio stock.

[fungus pudding]

thanks for your comments
I have broker reports that suggest APT is certainly a must in a property portfolio. They all have their good and bad points. May look at a spread over the 5 property trusts. I would appreciate any comments.

My two cents worth as someone who has managed to grind out a living as a property investor over the last forty years is don't get too hung up on office bldgs. Brokers and bankers might understand them as they spend their time staring out the windows of them all day, but poor overworked landlords like me hate the sight of them. Light industrial/warehouse/showroom are good; so is retail, althought there is good and bad depending on location. I've got most of the trusts, but not APT, although I might buy a small smattering of them one day. But really office buildings are nearly as bad - and as unrewarding - as residential flats/houses.

[The Great Gold Guru]

Bob Jones buys principally office buildings ... he hasn't done too bad for himself over the years. Buy and hold and never develop are his motto. If AMP Office hadn't tried to be so smart with 21 Queen Street there is no way there shareprice would be 71c and the rights issue would probably have been half the size. Who in there right mind would go into a $100m development without a single square metre leased before going ahead. Just plain dumb , and they are paying the price now.

I hold APT ... just recently bought 10,000 pre-rights at 81c ... used to have 130,000 but sold when they announced 21 Queen Street purchase at $1.38 ... fortunately for me their poor judgement has saved me around $70k.

I like Goodman as my no.1 pick ... chance they may become self-managed if their parent in Australia needs to sell some assets quick fire at some point in the near future. Good portfolio , 10c divi ... even if they cut it 20% the yield will still be almost 10%.

[voltage]

interesting comments, so there is not much choice of what to buy, thinking of borrowing 100000 and divide 6 ways

[fungus pudding]

interesting comments, so there is not much choice of what to buy, thinking of borrowing 100000 and divide 6 ways

Goodman, ING, KIP are all good at current prices. GGG mentions Jones' ownership of office bldgs. If you can find a copy of Jones on Property - bestseller in the 70s, he made some brilliant comments on industrial vs office. His comments still hold true, although pride of ownership seems to have driven him to office buildings. As he puts it, he just likes owning the damn things.

[croesus]

Keep away from Dodgy Kev and NAP.

[fungus pudding]

Should have mentioned DNZ. Unlisted and accesible throught their own site, or here is link to secondary market.

http://www.unlisted.co.nz/uPublic/unlisted.mt_public.securityDetail?p_prtp_id=140&p_key=071f26491377430c41202a7d

Not the world's greatest but ok at the price. Only available through a couple of brokers and sales only posted 5 p.mp on Fridays. I'm sure price would rise if publically listed, and I'm fairly sure that one day they will be, so might be worth accumulating a few. Grew out of the remnants of some syndicated deals that 'Honest Doug' Somers Edgar put together through Money Managers. Horrible start to life that that would be for anything, but coming right. Worth watching.

[Billy Boy]

APT is not in the business of selling properties. It buys with a view to growing rentals and capital values. Overgearing is the problem which has resulted in the other property trusts especially in Australia having to fire-sell properties.

Now is the time to buy, not sell, I would have thought.

I posted before the budget as I thought Billy smurf would hit property
owners (land taxes).
How ever I still hold reservations in regards APT. Interest rates are going
to go up over the next year or so and if they do have to retrench somewhat then it will be very hard for APT IMO. Lets see how they
come out of the money raising venture, I might change my opinion.
Cheers BB :)
dic dont hold APT (now)

[Dr_Who]

APT shares doing very well these two days. Up nearly 10% in two days. :)

Also seems like Abu Dabi have increased their shareholding in APT.

disc: Recently bought APT

[Billy Boy]

Would have thought KIP SP would be showing sign's of improvement
by now ( Book Close Tues 9th 4 cent div) More bad news to come ?
GGG, F.Pud, anyone what's your view ?
BB:)

[fungus pudding]

Would have thought KIP SP would be showing sign's of improvement
by now ( Book Close Tues 9th 4 cent div) More bad news to come ?
GGG, F.Pud, anyone what's your view ?
BB:)


Maybe, but it's not likely to be all that bad. All I know is 'never look a gift horse in the mouth'.

[COLIN]

APT shares doing very well these two days. Up nearly 10% in two days. :)

Also seems like Abu Dabi have increased their shareholding in APT.

disc: Recently bought APT

I just have to air my frustration somewhere: I have just opened the morning's mail to find that my APT rights issue takeup application has been refused because it was not received until 8 June and acceptances had to be received by the Registry by close of business on 4 June. I posted the wretched thing on 31 May, FASTPOST, and, accepting that Monday 1 June was a holiday, I had no doubt that it would be received at the Registry by 5 p.m. on Thursday 4 June. The failure by NZ Post to honour their promises with the FASTPOST service has cost me over $1,000 on today's price for the APT's. I will be writing to the NZPO Chairman, Bolger - nothing will happen, of course, but it will help to dissipate my anger. Why have a supposed FASTPOST service?
There, I feel a tad better already.

[money maker]

I just have to air my frustration somewhere: I have just opened the morning's mail to find that my APT rights issue takeup application has been refused because it was not received until 8 June and acceptances had to be received by the Registry by close of business on 4 June. I posted the wretched thing on 31 May, FASTPOST, and, accepting that Monday 1 June was a holiday, I had no doubt that it would be received at the Registry by 5 p.m. on Thursday 4 June. The failure by NZ Post to honour their promises with the FASTPOST service has cost me over $1,000 on today's price for the APT's. I will be writing to the NZPO Chairman, Bolger - nothing will happen, of course, but it will help to dissipate my anger. Why have a supposed FASTPOST service?
There, I feel a tad better already.

how frustrating. If only NZPOST could be held liable for the loss incurred. wouldn't that be great. May be time to start thinking about a nominee service eh haha

[777]

My wife sent a food parcel to our daughter in Dunedin at 4.30pm yesterday (from Auckland). Had a text at 8.30am today saying she had received it. So sometimes they are OK.

However I think the share registry should have honoured the application. They could have checked the postmark to ensure it was posted within a reasonable amount of time. Have a go at APT. They pay a lot of money to them so have the clout to do something about it.

[macduffy]

Unfortunately, new issue documentation usually stipulates " received by ( the registry) by....."

The postal service with Australia can be a bit dicey at times and I've adopted the practice of paying by BPay when this option is offered. It usually is.
Doesn't seeem to be an option with NZ share issues. Whether this is a legislative or a systems matter I don't know but it seems about time that we updated our procedures.

[BRICKS]

Seeing now that KIP is at its bottom BRICKS bought a few just to be in the swim as
there not many shares around below $1.00 this seemed a GOER.. and the Palmerston
North centre is GREAT also up and GOING..

[COLIN]

Unfortunately, new issue documentation usually stipulates " received by ( the registry) by....."

The postal service with Australia can be a bit dicey at times and I've adopted the practice of paying by BPay when this option is offered. It usually is.
Doesn't seeem to be an option with NZ share issues. Whether this is a legislative or a systems matter I don't know but it seems about time that we updated our procedures.

I agree that there should be a better way of doing this. We had only just got back from Australia on 30 May, with my mail waiting for attention. If we had stayed another week in Australia I wouldn't even have been able to sign and send off the application form in time. I have in fact missed out on other opportunities in the past, through being overseas. It should be possible to deal with these matters electronically but they seem to need a signature.
I don't want to give someone a Power of Attorney but I may think about using the services of a Nominee Company, as moneymaker has suggested.
The Registry didn't return the envelope and I suppose it is now untraceable.

[macduffy]

Yes, I don't know why some issues require a signature and others don't. Is it only entitlement issues as distinct from SPP's that need signing or is it a NZ/Aust legislation/systems distinction? I can't recall signing an Aust SPP form in recent years.

:confused:

[BRICKS]

Seeing now that KIP is at its bottom BRICKS bought a few just to be in the swim as
there not many shares around below $1.00 this seemed a GOER.. and the Palmerston
North centre is GREAT also up and GOING..

THE land of the long white cloud needs BIZ even though its slow stay where its easy
to do eventually the Oz will eat you..

[Dr_Who]

Have the shares in a nominee account and get your broker to do all the hard work. ;)

[COLIN]

THE land of the long white cloud needs BIZ even though its slow stay where its easy
to do eventually the Oz will eat you..

??

BRICKS - wrong thread, I think?

[Jake]

Should have mentioned DNZ. Unlisted and accesible throught their own site, or here is link to secondary market.

http://www.unlisted.co.nz/uPublic/unlisted.mt_public.securityDetail?p_prtp_id=140&p_key=071f26491377430c41202a7d

Not the world's greatest but ok at the price. Only available through a couple of brokers and sales only posted 5 p.mp on Fridays. I'm sure price would rise if publically listed, and I'm fairly sure that one day they will be, so might be worth accumulating a few. Grew out of the remnants of some syndicated deals that 'Honest Doug' Somers Edgar put together through Money Managers. Horrible start to life that that would be for anything, but coming right. Worth watching.

Will revisit this thread in the near future to shake his hand.

[fungus pudding]

Will revisit this thread in the near future to shake his hand.

I see DNZ have actually traded at 45 - 50 cent range. I thought they would hit the market at way below that, but it might take a while for them to settle down - down being the operative word .......

[BRICKS]

Seeing now that KIP is at its bottom BRICKS bought a few just to be in the swim as
there not many shares around below $1.00 this seemed a GOER.. and the Palmerston
North centre is GREAT also up and GOING..

LAST chance to get at the bottom there a good 10 cents in this share price forget about overseas stay in NZ..

[Rif-Raf]

I agree that there should be a better way of doing this. We had only just got back from Australia on 30 May, with my mail waiting for attention. If we had stayed another week in Australia I wouldn't even have been able to sign and send off the application form in time. I have in fact missed out on other opportunities in the past, through being overseas. It should be possible to deal with these matters electronically but they seem to need a signature.
I don't want to give someone a Power of Attorney but I may think about using the services of a Nominee Company, as moneymaker has suggested.
The Registry didn't return the envelope and I suppose it is now untraceable.

Had a similar experience this week with SKC - Sent from a Chch post agency on 21/5 and arrived on 26/5 which was 1 day late.

Yes it's about time NZ & Aus share registries got into this century age and introduced some electronic and more user friendly and reliable systems. For Aussie, sent by courier, however even that could backfire as some of the return addresses are bagged addresses which mean there's noone there to sign for courier delivery. Must get around to setting up an Aussie bank acount.

[fungus pudding]

Had a similar experience this week with SKC - Sent from a Chch post agency on 21/5 and arrived on 26/5 which was 1 day late.

Yes it's about time NZ & Aus share registries got into this century age and introduced some electronic and more user friendly and reliable systems. For Aussie, sent by courier, however even that could backfire as some of the return addresses are bagged addresses which mean there's noone there to sign for courier delivery. Must get around to setting up an Aussie bank acount.

Dead easy to set up a Westpac account online, even thought the site says you can't.

[Billy Boy]

Depth :- 74c 2 u0 Volume 380,435 sold & 74c

Someone getting out bigtime !!
BB

[Billy Boy]

ING upping their stake in NAP ??? ;)
BB

[underground]

dont know what the deal with NAP is, maybe they want to reach a strategic stake of 10% ? mind you, the market cap of NAP is so small they could acquire it pretty easily if they wanted to

sell side of ING starting to look a bit thin, i think some of INGs recent bad publicity has dampened the shareprice..looking at the charts there seems to be historial support around 80c.

i remember a while back ING were buying back there own shares on market at around 90c , maybe gives an indication of how management perceive the value of this stock?

money to be made for those who are patient.

what are other peoples opinions as to ING property trust?

discl: i hold ING.

[BRICKS]

LAST chance to get at the bottom there a good 10 cents in this share price forget about overseas stay in NZ..

WELL KIP has made a small rise of 1 cent and looks to continue as stated $1 the TARGET..

[Billy Boy]

I like ING & GMT, Stay away from the ozzy's as they are far too over
leveraged.
APT will come right and so will KPF, but will take time. Having said that,
dont 4get the divvy you make (pie) while waiting for a cap gain which
will come.
Use these divvy's to buy up other shares you like (NZO, PRC, etc)
BB has done just that over this bad period and is a very Happy Chappy.
Now has a lot of PRC, PRCOA, NZO, PPP :). Will probably find if very
hard to sell my LPT's & probably wont coz of the cash flow.

as they say .... Buy some shares, sell half when double the originial
price. Then you are playing with someone else's money ;)
BB:)

[OldRider]

BB: I hope your ideas are right, having done similarly. I did sell down as well in the wider market and have used the cash to take part in a number of capital raisings. In some cases now holding double the number of shares held prior to the market downturn.

No great profits to date, but think I am much better positioned to make more of growth when it arrives.

[Billy Boy]

DNZ Doing the presentation rounds.
Could be interesting. Investors & potential investors invited.
BB :)

[fungus pudding]

DNZ Doing the presentation rounds.
Could be interesting. Investors & potential investors invited.
BB :)

They're highly geared compared to listed trusts. Do have some good properties.

[underground]

unusually high turnover for ING today? at those levels would be expecting a substantial security holder disclosure of some sorts?

[Billy Boy]

Whilst venturing into The Great White South and talking to the "Fathers"
I took the time to go too the DNZ presentation.
A very good presentation all round. Both Speakers spoke very well.
But..... !!! ???
Leveraged at 47% :eek: Not a worry says CEO Paul Durry.
Was standing by when a guy said "what about land tax should it happen"
"Won't happen said the CEO" loudly. It bloody might thinks me.
No reasons as too why it wont happen from the CEO. Hmmmm
Was told latter the Pat thingy (the other guy) when asked the same
question, did the big side step.
F/pud, GGG. I hope you can go, in your area, and give us/me your thoughts.
cheers to all
BB :)

[Snapper]

Whilst venturing into The Great White South and talking to the "Fathers"
I took the time to go too the DNZ presentation.
A very good presentation all round. Both Speakers spoke very well.
But..... !!! ???
Leveraged at 47% :eek: Not a worry says CEO Paul Durry.
Was standing by when a guy said "what about land tax should it happen"
"Won't happen said the CEO" loudly. It bloody might thinks me.
No reasons as too why it wont happen from the CEO. Hmmmm
Was told latter the Pat thingy (the other guy) when asked the same
question, did the big side step.
F/pud, GGG. I hope you can go, in your area, and give us/me your thoughts.
cheers to all
BB :)

I bought some at 40c the other day

As you said, they're highly leveraged which is a bit of a worry but at the moment with interest rates so low its creating positive cashflow for them.

To improve their debt ratio they probably need to do a rights issue; they've just started a reinvestment plan as well.

They seem to be a well-managed company with a good property portfolio. On the negative side liquidity is rubbish but I expect to see a main board listing in the next couple of years which should improve things. It would be no surprise too to see their NTA take another hit at some stage.

They've also reduced their management fees to bring them in line with other listed property, expected saving around $400,000 pa.

Time will tell on this one but if someone offered you a $225,000 property for $100,000 it would be hard to say no, wouldn't it?


To improve their debt situation

[fungus pudding]

Whilst venturing into The Great White South and talking to the "Fathers"
I took the time to go too the DNZ presentation.
A very good presentation all round. Both Speakers spoke very well.
But..... !!! ???
Leveraged at 47% :eek: Not a worry says CEO Paul Durry.
Was standing by when a guy said "what about land tax should it happen"
"Won't happen said the CEO" loudly. It bloody might thinks me.
No reasons as too why it wont happen from the CEO. Hmmmm
Was told latter the Pat thingy (the other guy) when asked the same
question, did the big side step.
F/pud, GGG. I hope you can go, in your area, and give us/me your thoughts.
cheers to all
BB :)


I went today to Dunedin presentation. Like you I have concerns about debt. Obviously they will want to list one day, and there's no show with such high debt. Paul Duffy is certainly a good presenter, but I have reservations. One of their assetts is a loan to a developer (who happens to be Paul Duffy) which is outlined in their report prior to amalgamating the syndicates into the current company. One of their leases a few years back was described as a nine year lease, but had a clause saying the tenants could opt out after a certain time. (5 years IIRC) and I had a hell of a job getting Paul Duffy to admit it was a 5yr lease with an R.O.R, which it was - in disguise. Overall I think they're a promising outfit but have been a little more economical with the truth than the listed trusts would get away with. They came from rough beginnings, and seem to be shaking off their demons. I wouldn't lose sleep over land tax, which is not to say it won't be imposed, but unlikely. So who knows? They seem confident that the divvy can be maintained, but if they had to reduce debt - that aint gonna work! Duffy mumbled something about a capital raising issue and acknowelged it would dilute the NTA. But if they're cheap enough I'd buy more. I hold 300,000 at present. I did suggest they should list transactions more frequently than once a week - seems like they might go for twice a week. So in short - if you invest for income I'd buy at around current price. Returning equivalent of 20% before tax to a 39% tax payer aint all bad!

[Snapper]

I also queried Paul Duffy re the loan - I take it you're referring to the McKinney loan? He told me that McKinney is a related company used for tax purposes when DNZ has done development projects such as the Meridian design and build down in Wellington and the Tauriko development in Tauranga.

Fair question, though.

[fungus pudding]

I also queried Paul Duffy re the loan - I take it you're referring to the McKinney loan? He told me that McKinney is a related company used for tax purposes when DNZ has done development projects such as the Meridian design and build down in Wellington and the Tauriko development in Tauranga.

Fair question, though.

I'd have to dig out the old book of words - but from memory McKinney sounds right - I questioned one of the henchmen at the time this loan first surfaced in the amalgamation book, and I commented that if they ever wanted to list - this would be a no-no. His reply was - yes, there's a couple of things that would need to be tidied up, or words to that effect. I don't think it's a big deal.

[The Great Gold Guru]

Hi all,

I don't hold any units in DNZ ... looked at the Tauranga Retail offering when it was all separate but the management fees put me off. What is the occupancy ratio of the portfolio. I notice a couple of "For Lease" signs around with big DNZ logo's all over them here in Auckland. One on the Upper Harbour Highway and one in the Airport Oaks development on the way to AIA.

They own the flash new 5 star Meridian Energy building on the Wellington waterfront dont they ?

Regards.

AMP Office will be worth buying at some point soon ... 66-67c could be a possibility. Mgmt have stuffed up a bit recently but you gotta think with the quality of the portfolio it is worth a long term play. At 66c the cash yield is almost 10%

[fungus pudding]

Hi all,

I don't hold any units in DNZ ... looked at the Tauranga Retail offering when it was all separate but the management fees put me off. What is the occupancy ratio of the portfolio. I notice a couple of "For Lease" signs around with big DNZ logo's all over them here in Auckland. One on the Upper Harbour Highway and one in the Airport Oaks development on the way to AIA.

They own the flash new 5 star Meridian Energy building on the Wellington waterfront dont they ?

Regards.

AMP Office will be worth buying at some point soon ... 66-67c could be a possibility. Mgmt have stuffed up a bit recently but you gotta think with the quality of the portfolio it is worth a long term play. At 66c the cash yield is almost 10%

Yes they own the Meridian bldg. WALT is 4.85 years. Occupancy is 98.14%