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Leftfield
29-01-2021, 09:39 AM
The cancellations in containers is a potential problem that we dont normally look into at the shipper level and the sales departments appear to be as bad as an Aussi bank on cup day. Sorry that container booking i sold you has been cancelled. Exporting good is not the perfect booking system we imagine it to be.

Ssssoo you shorting ATM then??

dreamcatcher
29-01-2021, 10:03 AM
Great reading of the Reddit investors actions regarding shorts...........who will they be targeting next.

"Webjet, Tassal Group, Inghams Group and InvoCareHeavily-shorted Australian stocks including these companies all rose on Thursday against an overall fall of Sydney’s benchmark ASX 200 index."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/28/reddit-investor-army-taking-battle-global-ailing-stocks-hedge-funds

Balance
29-01-2021, 10:09 AM
Great reading of the Reddit investors actions regarding shorts...........who will they be targeting next.

"Webjet, Tassal Group, Inghams Group and InvoCareHeavily-shorted Australian stocks including these companies all rose on Thursday against an overall fall of Sydney’s benchmark ASX 200 index."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/28/reddit-investor-army-taking-battle-global-ailing-stocks-hedge-funds


Will be a sight to watch indeed if ATM gets the same action!

Sideshow Bob
29-01-2021, 10:10 AM
A2 have airfreighted product at times - and although more costly, would expect less costly than missing sales or being out of stock. Airfreight prices up to China are pretty similar to pre-Covid, as the Govt are subsidising routes to keep stuff moving.

Reefer availability is particularly bad at the moment, unsure on GP containers. Problem is some Chinese ports are closed with Covid and congestion, which has been exacerbated by upcoming Chinese New Year celebrations. The container merry-go-round isn't going fast enough.

sb9
29-01-2021, 10:11 AM
Great reading of the Reddit investors actions regarding shorts...........who will they be targeting next.

"Webjet, Tassal Group, Inghams Group and InvoCare

Heavily-shorted Australian stocks including these companies all rose on Thursday against an overall fall of Sydney’s benchmark ASX 200 index."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/28/reddit-investor-army-taking-battle-global-ailing-stocks-hedge-funds


Interesting read, is it case of David Vs Goliath???

Gregnz
29-01-2021, 05:58 PM
This was interesting, a possible further explanation for the drop in dairy exports in Dec:

"The co-op, in its latest global update, said China dairy import volumes increased by 10 per cent or 28,565 tonnes in November compared to the same period last year.
Westpac agri economist Nathan Penny was not reading too much into the December data,
"November was strong, so it's natural that it came back a bit," Penny said.
"When you look at the seasonal pattern and the 12-month total, there is nothing that really jumps out at you. I think it's just a timing issue," he said.
"They are big numbers and if one container ship gets processed a day or two earlier rather than later, then a big chunk of product can fall into one month and not the other," he said.
Penny noted Global Dairy Trade auction prices had started 2021 on a strong note, and he expected prices to tick up again at next week's auction.
ASB chief economist Nick Tuffley said demand from China remained incredibly strong, but there were some likely timing issues around export shipments.
"The underlying story still seems to be fairly encouraging," he said."

Leftfield
30-01-2021, 01:43 PM
Great reading of the Reddit investors actions regarding shorts...........who will they be targeting next.

"Webjet, Tassal Group, Inghams Group and InvoCare

Heavily-shorted Australian stocks including these companies all rose on Thursday against an overall fall of Sydney’s benchmark ASX 200 index."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/28/reddit-investor-army-taking-battle-global-ailing-stocks-hedge-funds



Mmmm we sure live in interesting times.

However, there is a huge difference between Gameshop which reputedly had 120% of its shares shorted (yes more shares shorted than on issue!!??) when compared to ATM's 7.9% shorted (at 22 Jan)

That said shorting brokers rushing to cover their Gameshop and/or other short obligations may be forced sell other non related shares to cover their mounting debt.

Will there be implications for ATM..... who know's!!?? Interesting times.

bottomfeeder
30-01-2021, 03:01 PM
Where do you go to find out the number of shorter on companies on the NZX

Leftfield
30-01-2021, 04:13 PM
Where do you go to find out the number of shorter on companies on the NZX

There is no shorting on NZX. However ASX allows it and ASX data is available here (https://www.shortman.com.au/stock?q=a2m) but note data is delayed.

alokdhir
30-01-2021, 04:50 PM
There is no shorting on NZX. However ASX allows it and ASX data is available here (https://www.shortman.com.au/stock?q=a2m) but note data is delayed.

Like many have pointed out that after seeing what happened to shorters in US ...many may have started booking their profits in ATM ...which can be one of the reason why its become pretty buoyant in the last week or so ...U can easily feel its SP got a bullish sentiment and feel to it these days ...unlike before .

It will be very interesting to keep watch on delayed Shortman data ...I am curious if only short covering is the reason of this bullish feel or something else more substantial is cooking ...I understand Feb HY announcement is due in last week ...apart from tinkering with FY guidance nothing much is expected in actual reporting ...surely 670 cant become 700 !!

Also if shorts are covering slowly and if we see last friday figures to be only 5% short then what happens ....still a big if ...but very curious to find out whats going on for some real buying interest in ATM these days

Gregnz
30-01-2021, 06:25 PM
Like many have pointed out that after seeing what happened to shorters in US ...many may have started booking their profits in ATM ...which can be one of the reason why its become pretty buoyant in the last week or so ...U can easily feel its SP got a bullish sentiment and feel to it these days ...unlike before .

It will be very interesting to keep watch on delayed Shortman data ...I am curious if only short covering is the reason of this bullish feel or something else more substantial is cooking ...I understand Feb HY announcement is due in last week ...apart from tinkering with FY guidance nothing much is expected in actual reporting ...surely 670 cant become 700 !!

Also if shorts are covering slowly and if we see last friday figures to be only 5% short then what happens ....still a big if ...but very curious to find out whats going on for some real buying interest in ATM these days

Personally, I dont think the bullish sentiment is due to short covering. It appears to be more timed to the announcement of the signing of the upgraded trade deal (which personally surprises me as the trade deal was done and dusted last November). When short covering does start, that could lead to one almighty short squeeze. Id personally be quite worried if I held a short position in a company, with 60 million other short positions open. Any ounce of good news pushing the share price higher will see any profits on a short position quickly disappear, or potentially mean if they cant close their position in time (buy back shares) they may well end up paying more for them than when they took out the short position (as has happened nearly every other year). Previous years, its been common for A2 to increase several dollars after a trading halt is lifted during the pre open auction, so if guidance comes in within whats been proposed, it may already be too late for Shorters to close out positions. Obviously the same is true of A2 if guidance is missed, the share price has the potential to drop several dollars during the pre market open post a trading halt. From what I have seen and heard, I am leaning towards guidance being achieved, upper end.

Gregnz
30-01-2021, 06:30 PM
12264
26.3 days to cover based on average trading volume.

Gregnz
30-01-2021, 06:40 PM
Interesting to see the A2 short squeeze movement gaining traction on HotCopper and Reddit. Perhaps we just need Elon to try it and add it to his Twitter feed how much he loves A2 milk.
I see someone has already messaged him. What a world we live in today..

daveypnz
30-01-2021, 11:01 PM
Have been drinking a lot of milk lately as I'm back in the gym for the first time in years, generally tolerate milk well but do get a bit bloated. Tried a2 for a laugh and have to say I don't feel anywhere near as bloated after drinking it. It also seems to have less of a scent than regular milk, almost no smell when you have a whiff of the bottle - that's possibly just the anchor bottle though as I vaguely remember reading someone saying their anchor milk tasted different when they switched to non transparent bottles.

Anyway will keep drinking and see how I feel, I may become a believer.

longy
31-01-2021, 12:50 PM
12264
26.3 days to cover based on average trading volume.
Gregnz. Where did you obtained these info from please? Many thanks.

dreamcatcher
31-01-2021, 07:23 PM
Interesting to see the A2 short squeeze movement gaining traction on HotCopper and Reddit. Perhaps we just need Elon to try it and add it to his Twitter feed how much he loves A2 milk.
I see someone has already messaged him. What a world we live in today..

Appears the HC brigade are now well and truly aware of Reddit effects to target heavily shorted stocks. Listening to a share commentator today who mentions some Hedge Funds with zero balances would not be a problem. Also outlining that most would short targeted stocks before lowering their TP finding every excuse to justify new valuations. Retail investors should care zero about shorters loses and put them on notice that their actions also had huge losses on others ...........sound famiiar for a2

GameStop shares shorted has declined by 8% in the last 7 days to 57.83 million, as some short sellers have covered their bets that the stock would fall. Looking at Shortman's chart for 22nd January A2m short sellers position stood at 7.88% or 58.5 million greater then GameStop.

LEMON
31-01-2021, 08:50 PM
What do you think would be next for A2M?
Or hard to say?

Gregnz
31-01-2021, 09:20 PM
I wasn’t too sure how to take today’s announcement from government about climate targets and reducing cow herd numbers. They seem to think that they can produce as much diary with 15% less cows by 2030.
Personally I’d prefer they start by fixing child poverty, housing, and crime , then tackle the bigger issues such as climate change. After all they are already in their 4th year and don’t appear to have achieved much when it comes to the fundamental issues in society.

I did speak to a friend of mine this evening who knows a number of dairy farmers. He seems to think that the announcement today could lead to a increase in farmers converting herds to A2A2 protein, as apparently they receive slightly more $$ per kg of milk solids, and if their herd numbers are reduced, they need to achieve higher $$ with less cows. I don’t know enough about it to know how this works.
I imagine if farmers have limits placed on herd sizes, if they can achieve a higher margin selling their milk to be used in nutritional products then this makes sense, or perhaps it will just lead to a increase in dairy costs across the board, passed onto the consumer. Apparently NZ is already able to produce dairy at a much cheaper cost vs other countries, so perhaps a increase in this cost is inevitable.

dreamcatcher
31-01-2021, 10:40 PM
Gregnz@ - Imagine increased dairy prices would be the result or discovery of new feed to stop cows belching or flatulencing: I found these interesting facts "which is a bigger methane source: cow belching or cow flatulence? Contrary to common belief, it's cow belching due to enteric fermentation. A cow burps and farts between 160 to 320 litres of methane per day."

LEMON@ - Not sure where this Reddit army movement will take a2 shares but this borrowing of shares what absolute rubbish.

Gregnz
01-02-2021, 12:14 AM
Gregnz@ - Imagine increased dairy prices would be the result or discovery of new feed to stop cows belching or flatulencing: I found these interesting facts "which is a bigger methane source: cow belching or cow flatulence? Contrary to common belief, it's cow belching due to enteric fermentation. A cow burps and farts between 160 to 320 litres of methane per day."

LEMON@ - Not sure where this Reddit army movement will take a2 shares but this borrowing of shares what absolute rubbish.

Yes, but isnt the fact that our cows are grass fed one of the reasons the world likes our dairy? I wonder if there is a way to engineer a grass variety which creates less methane after consumption.

I can just imagine it, as a result of a methane reduction target, we start planting and harvesting grain and convert our herds to grain fed (if it produces less methane). One step forward, two steps backwards.

I'm not against doing what we can do as a small nation to combat climate change, I'm all for it. I just wonder though what impact our small nation has in the grand scheme, when countries like China and the USA contribute such a large % towards emissions.
We already have a low wage economy, with rising cost of living, and housing out of reach for many, but because we want to make a small contribution to world climate emissions, our population will pay more for food, petrol, gas, and somehow afford to buy an electric car (because we don't have sufficient public transport to rely upon, and we wont be allowed to buy a petrol car). Dont even get me started on the battery side of things, as everything I read suggests that mining lithium for a battery, and end of life recycling and disposal is just as bad for the environment as petrol.
I hear in the USA you already receive a significant rebate for installing solar on your roof, and a rebate when you buy an electric car. I'm yet to see anything here along similar lines. I would have thought thats where we would have started?

iceman
01-02-2021, 01:55 AM
Yes, but isnt the fact that our cows are grass fed one of the reasons the world likes our dairy? I wonder if there is a way to engineer a grass variety which creates less methane after consumption.

I can just imagine it, as a result of a methane reduction target, we start planting and harvesting grain and convert our herds to grain fed (if it produces less methane). One step forward, two steps backwards.



Lots of time & money being spent in the science industry on that. I am sure science & engineering will fix issues like this as well as most climate change issues in general in the future rather than silly do-gooders politicians that have no frigging idea..

kiora
01-02-2021, 03:19 AM
Lots of time & money being spent in the science industry on that. I am sure science & engineering will fix issues like this as well as most climate change issues in general in the future rather than silly do-gooders politicians that have no frigging idea..

The solution is already there without cutting cow numbers
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2020/11/27/climate-solutions-seaweed-methane/?arc404=true

mike2020
01-02-2021, 07:04 AM
The solution is already there without cutting cow numbers
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2020/11/27/climate-solutions-seaweed-methane/?arc404=true

Ex dairy farmer, 7 years ago I was quite excited by UK trials on a garlic product reducing methane with resulting increases in milk and liveweight over 25% in all ruminants (the methane is wasted energy). Like the mythical lawnmower running on water, went nowhere. Targets would easily be met if there was enough motivation to do more than talk. PS every time I lowered cow numbers I increased production and profitability.

Sideshow Bob
01-02-2021, 08:32 AM
Prof Keith latest article, about Sir Bob Elliot and some of the background on A2 - Page 23

Farmers Weekly NZ February 1 2021 by Farmers Weekly NZ - Issuu (https://issuu.com/farmersweeklynz/docs/fw_01-02_issuu/1?ff&showOtherPublicationsAsSuggestions=true)

Gregnz
01-02-2021, 09:58 AM
The solution is already there without cutting cow numbers
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2020/11/27/climate-solutions-seaweed-methane/?arc404=true

seaweed definitely seems like a potential solution to add into the mix. I just wonder what emissions are involved in harvesting it in bulk as feed for livestock.

Gregnz
01-02-2021, 10:06 AM
Prof Keith latest article, about Sir Bob Elliot and some of the background on A2 - Page 23

Farmers Weekly NZ February 1 2021 by Farmers Weekly NZ - Issuu (https://issuu.com/farmersweeklynz/docs/fw_01-02_issuu/1?ff&showOtherPublicationsAsSuggestions=true)

Great article. I also took interest at the article on NZ dairy farmers leading the way in climate emissions on page 7.
Based on that article, we already have the lowest methane emissions in the world as a result of feeding livestock grass.
Yet our government wants to reduce our herd numbers? If we already produce dairy with the lowest environmental impact in the world, wouldn’t it make sense to increase our herd numbers and produce more dairy here vs countries with a much less efficient farming sector?

Smells a bit like another Tiwai point , close down production here where we produce the worlds cleanest aluminium, and produce more of it offshore where the environmental impact is more significant as a result of burning coal to supply electricity.
Also reminds me of the stance our government is taking towards natural gas. Stop extracting it here, and import it from overseas where they have to ship it here using a diesel powered ship, and to manufacture it offshore they burn coal!

winner69
01-02-2021, 11:04 AM
Great article. I also took interest at the article on NZ dairy farmers leading the way in climate emissions on page 7.
Based on that article, we already have the lowest methane emissions in the world as a result of feeding livestock grass.
Yet our government wants to reduce our herd numbers? If we already produce dairy with the lowest environmental impact in the world, wouldn’t it make sense to increase our herd numbers and produce more dairy here vs countries with a much less efficient farming sector?

Smells a bit like another Tiwai point , close down production here where we produce the worlds cleanest aluminium, and produce more of it offshore where the environmental impact is more significant as a result of burning coal to supply electricity.
Also reminds me of the stance our government is taking towards natural gas. Stop extracting it here, and import it from overseas where they have to ship it here using a diesel powered ship, and to manufacture it offshore they burn coal!

You just don’t get it greg

Rod Carr (Chair of CCC) just compared Food producers in NZ with Whale hunters. When asked if he accepted that our farmers were the most carbon efficient in the world he said something like ‘Being the best whale hunters doesn’t make it good’

Gregnz
01-02-2021, 11:12 AM
You just don’t get it greg

Rod Carr (Chair of CCC) just compared Food producers in NZ with Whale hunters. When asked if he accepted that our farmers were the most carbon efficient in the world he said something like ‘Being the best whale hunters doesn’t make it good’

Omg, he actually did! What a nutter.

12266

12267

Ggcc
01-02-2021, 11:32 AM
Omg, he actually did! What a nutter.

12266

12267
Clearly he lives with his head in the clouds.

Gregnz
01-02-2021, 11:38 AM
How does it end up that our politicians are so out of touch with reality, that their proposed climate initiatives actually have the opposite affect to what the world is trying to achieve.
Im no scientist, no politician, if normal everyday people like me are questioning these things, I’m very concerned at what our future holds.

Sideshow Bob
01-02-2021, 12:09 PM
Goes to show how it is a box-ticking, virtuous looking, nationalistic agenda, rather than really trying to do what is best and has the lowest emissions. Making sure we meet our obligations to climate accords, no matter how little difference it will make, or what economic damage it will do.

On a farming/A2 perspective, part of the issue is the emissions falls back on the producer. But with oil, it falls on the consumer.......don't see the Saudi's trying to plant pine tress.

Biscuit
01-02-2021, 12:21 PM
How does it end up that our politicians are so out of touch with reality, that their proposed climate initiatives actually have the opposite affect to what the world is trying to achieve.
Im no scientist, no politician, if normal everyday people like me are questioning these things, I’m very concerned at what our future holds.

As a scientist, I can assure you the answer is simple: reduce the human population to one hundredth of its current size. That is likely the only answer, but it is at that point that the politicians get involved and start complicating things again.

kiora
01-02-2021, 01:30 PM
Maybe its better to walk?
The amount of emissions' to produce a 1 kg eye fillet in Denmark is the same emission's as driving from Denmark to Paris

macduffy
01-02-2021, 01:38 PM
Are we entitled to ask what Rod Carr's qualifications are to chair the climate change commission? Previously a Reserve Bank economist - on the one hand this, but on the other .... - and last heard of, the Vice Chancellor of Canterbury University. Eminently suitable for the climate change role?

freddagg
01-02-2021, 01:52 PM
Maybe its better to walk?
The amount of emissions' to produce a 1 kg eye fillet in Denmark is the same emission's as driving from Denmark to Paris

Fake news ?

kiora
01-02-2021, 02:03 PM
Fake news ?

No sadly for real

bull....
01-02-2021, 03:41 PM
outta the short , why bubs result not too bad as far as sales go and the gme thing makes holding shorts risky now. great trade anyway $20 to just under $11

Biscuit
01-02-2021, 03:55 PM
Maybe its better to walk?
The amount of emissions' to produce a 1 kg eye fillet in Denmark is the same emission's as driving from Denmark to Paris

Does it take more emissions to grow a kg of eye fillet than to grow a kg of rump steak?

dreamcatcher
01-02-2021, 04:48 PM
outta the short , why bubs result not too bad as far as sales go and the gme thing makes holding shorts risky now. great trade anyway $20 to just under $11

Well done bull....... I like and have a sizable holding in Bubs also

kiora
01-02-2021, 10:27 PM
Does it take more emissions to grow a kg of eye fillet than to grow a kg of rump steak?

No
why would it?
They are both only muscle

madmat
02-02-2021, 01:02 AM
You get more rump per KG of Cow than you do Eye Fillet. So I would say its less emissions for Rump and more for eye fillet?

winner69
02-02-2021, 08:47 AM
New man steps in next week ...things will start looking up

Hope Babidge doesn’t hang around too long .....been bad with him as caretaker .....and I hope he doesn’t get any incentive payments (contract said he could possibly earn $0.6m annually in incentives. Talk about Hrdlicka being in the trough ...Babidge maybe one as well.

Balance
02-02-2021, 09:23 AM
New man steps in next week ...things will start looking up

Hope Babidge doesn’t hang around too long .....been bad with him as caretaker .....and I hope he doesn’t get any incentive payments (contract said he could possibly earn $0.6m annually in incentives. Talk about Hrdlicka being in the trough ...Babidge maybe one as well.

First thing he will do is open up the cupboards and find all the skeletons pertaining to the double downgrades.

As for Hrdlicka, remember there was a disagreement over strategy - she wanted to accelerate marketing & promotional spend (short term pain) to offset the over-reliance on the Daigou channel?

winner69
02-02-2021, 09:33 AM
First thing he will do is open up the cupboards and find all the skeletons pertaining to the double downgrades.

As for Hrdlicka, remember there was a disagreement over strategy - she wanted to accelerate marketing & promotional spend (short term pain) to offset the over-reliance on the Daigou channel?

That would have been a good strategy - mountain of cash done nothing anyway

But they now seem to be heading in another direction and becoming more of a producer .... probably end up being another bloated Fonterra

Biscuit
02-02-2021, 09:35 AM
You get more rump per KG of Cow than you do Eye Fillet. So I would say its less emissions for Rump and more for eye fillet?

Well madmat and kiora, apparently you are both wrong:

".... Some studies provide the carbon
footprint of beef in terms of the finished carcass, whereas others provide data for
individual cuts of beef. The carbon footprint of a whole beef carcass is generally
apportioned to cuts of meat based on an economic allocation; whereby the more
valuable cuts (e.g. sirloin) receive the largest allocation per kg than less valuable cuts
(e.g. mince)."

So, does eating eye fillet produce more emissions than driving from Denmark to Paris? The devil is in the detail and it is probably a meaningless comparison.

porkandpuha
02-02-2021, 09:54 AM
Sheesh this thread is often guilty of going off track, but we have gone to the next level now :lol:

LEMON
02-02-2021, 10:06 AM
Sheesh this thread is often guilty of going off track, but we have gone to the next level now :lol:

Yup.......

arekaywhy
02-02-2021, 10:12 AM
How does it end up that our politicians are so out of touch with reality, that their proposed climate initiatives actually have the opposite affect to what the world is trying to achieve.
Im no scientist, no politician, if normal everyday people like me are questioning these things, I’m very concerned at what our future holds.


because we keep voting for them...

Biscuit
02-02-2021, 10:22 AM
Sheesh this thread is often guilty of going off track, but we have gone to the next level now :lol:


There's a track? :ohmy:

bull....
02-02-2021, 01:32 PM
its getting hammered today , must be the all that chat on emissions from steak causing people to worry over how many cows NZ will end up with once ardern and shaw BBQ a few

causecelebre
02-02-2021, 01:44 PM
its getting hammered today , must be the all that chat on emissions from steak causing people to worry over how many cows NZ will end up with once ardern and shaw BBQ a few

I'd say not that many. Setting up a coal BBQ takes time....

Balance
02-02-2021, 01:46 PM
I'd say not that many. Setting up a coal BBQ takes time....

3 years in government and they have delivered bugger all on their big promises - don't hold your breath. A lot of talk but no action.

Miss Popularity at all costs Cindy will talk big but back down last minute.

Gregnz
02-02-2021, 02:45 PM
I'd say not that many. Setting up a coal BBQ takes time....

Yep, you got it. Coal powered BBQ's instead of natural gas. And instead of exploring for methanol off our coastline, we will ask China to manufacture it for us by burning coal and sending the methanol to us using a Diesel powered ship.

And nail in the coffin, we will close down Tiwai point, after all we don't want them making the worlds cleanest aluminium here using renewable hydro power, we would prefer other countries burn coal to power their aluminium smelters.

Gregnz
02-02-2021, 02:47 PM
3 years in government and they have delivered bugger all on their big promises - don't hold your breath. A lot of talk but no action.

Miss Popularity at all costs Cindy will talk big but back down last minute.

If it wasn't for their Covid response, what have they actually delivered, nothing!

Every which way I look, most things are worse, housing affordability, crime, gangs, child poverty, state house waiting list, etc etc.

Balance
02-02-2021, 03:06 PM
If it wasn't for their Covid response, what have they actually delivered, nothing!

Every which way I look, most things are worse, housing affordability, crime, gangs, child poverty, state house waiting list, etc etc.

Going to get worse - for eg. I was at a meeting last week to discuss affordable housing and the best that Kainga Ora (Housing Corp) could offer was heaps of excuses!

bull....
02-02-2021, 03:07 PM
plenty of drugs to give your cows soon to reduce there emmissions .... wonder if they will list the side effects? might upset the a2 proteins

porkandpuha
02-02-2021, 03:52 PM
If it wasn't for their Covid response, what have they actually delivered, nothing!

Every which way I look, most things are worse, housing affordability, crime, gangs, child poverty, state house waiting list, etc etc.

You missed out Education which has been in the news the past week due to our poor standards. This combined list used to be the measure on which we judged our politicians. Now Joe Public seem to turn a blind eye to it all..

dobby41
02-02-2021, 04:04 PM
If it wasn't for their Covid response, what have they actually delivered, nothing!

Every which way I look, most things are worse, housing affordability, crime, gangs, child poverty, state house waiting list, etc etc.


Going to get worse - for eg. I was at a meeting last week to discuss affordable housing and the best that Kainga Ora (Housing Corp) could offer was heaps of excuses!

And this has what to do with ATM?
Maybe move your conversation to a more appropriate thread.

Biscuit
02-02-2021, 04:11 PM
3 years in government and they have delivered bugger all on their big promises - don't hold your breath. A lot of talk but no action.

Miss Popularity at all costs Cindy will talk big but back down last minute.


Chip in to get things moving faster

https://www.labour.org.nz/our-record

Balance
02-02-2021, 04:29 PM
And this has what to do with ATM?
Maybe move your conversation to a more appropriate thread.

Relevance :

Started with concern that government's pronouncements on climate change are going to impact on dairy sector and ATM in particular (as pertinent to this thread).

Followed up with no need for concerns as this government is all talk and no action.

Reaffirmed with its dismal record on delivering bugger all on housing, education, child poverty, climate change etc etc etc.

Get the point?

LEMON
02-02-2021, 04:29 PM
This forum is weak.

As a new investor A2M forum has done nothing but tired my mind, rather than help me learn and improve in the market over the past months.
All I hear is moaning and whinging over your fragile egos. The pointless discussion that comes to nothing. The tit for tat mentality, to the point I now have lower my bar to say something.

It truly feels like an old man's page to moan and complain about how lucky you all are to be in a place like New Zealand.
In saying that, I only mean the select few who continually need to have their voices heard, even when no one is asking.

Thankfully many others here are very helpful and informative and I have learnt much on other forum chats.

Jacinda or no Jacinda you all live very good lives here in New Zealand whether you have a 1 bedroom or a 5. A pushbike or 2 cars.

dobby41
02-02-2021, 04:31 PM
Relevance :

Started with concern that government's pronouncements on climate change are going to impact on dairy sector and ATM in particular (as pertinent to this thread).

Followed up with no need for concerns as this government is all talk and no action.

Reaffirmed with its dismal record on delivering bugger all on housing, education, child poverty, climate change etc etc etc.

Get the point?

It may have been relevant at some stage but your rants about the Govt have no relevance to this thread now.

Gregnz
02-02-2021, 04:32 PM
I posted here , initially about dairy farming and climate change, because I genuinely think it could have a impact on A2. And the ideas presented by others have quelled some of my concern.

I apologise for going off track with my thoughts on our current government, I guess I thought it was all related to my climate change discussion.

I note you mention old man's page, I'm really showing my age in my 30's.

Gregnz
02-02-2021, 04:38 PM
If anyone has anything else worth discussing relevant to A2, please feel free to contribute? Even new members wanting to gain knowledge are allowed to post...

dreamcatcher
02-02-2021, 04:46 PM
Here we go very positive for cows and bulls herd may not need to be reduced.

"A new partnership between Fonterra and Dutch company Royal DSM will trial the use of a feed additive, which inhibits methane in dairy cows.
Royal DSM’s product Bovaer has been shown to consistently reduce methane emissions by up to 30 per cent in non-pasture raised cows"

Fonterra partners with science giant DSM to reduce methane emissions in cows | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/124093975/fonterra-partners-with-science-giant-dsm-to-reduce-methane-emissions-in-cows)

Balance
02-02-2021, 04:46 PM
deleted deleted

Leftfield
02-02-2021, 05:38 PM
It may have been relevant at some stage but your rants about the Govt have no relevance to this thread now.

Totally agree.

Jack
02-02-2021, 09:32 PM
This forum is weak.

As a new investor A2M forum has done nothing but tired my mind, rather than help me learn and improve in the market over the past months.
All I hear is moaning and whinging over your fragile egos. The pointless discussion that comes to nothing. The tit for tat mentality, to the point I now have lower my bar to say something.

It truly feels like an old man's page to moan and complain about how lucky you all are to be in a place like New Zealand.
In saying that, I only mean the select few who continually need to have their voices heard, even when no one is asking.

Thankfully many others here are very helpful and informative and I have learnt much on other forum chats.

Jacinda or no Jacinda you all live very good lives here in New Zealand whether you have a 1 bedroom or a 5. A pushbike or 2 cars.
:t_up:
:t_up:

King1212
02-02-2021, 09:39 PM
Lol...love the comments here. It shows that most of the shareholders are frustrated and most of u guys are under the water. IMO, there is still a lot of water to go through the bridge.

Buffet said.....Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked.

Entrep
02-02-2021, 09:44 PM
This forum is weak.

As a new investor A2M forum has done nothing but tired my mind, rather than help me learn and improve in the market over the past months.
All I hear is moaning and whinging over your fragile egos. The pointless discussion that comes to nothing. The tit for tat mentality, to the point I now have lower my bar to say something.

It truly feels like an old man's page to moan and complain about how lucky you all are to be in a place like New Zealand.
In saying that, I only mean the select few who continually need to have their voices heard, even when no one is asking.

Thankfully many others here are very helpful and informative and I have learnt much on other forum chats.

Jacinda or no Jacinda you all live very good lives here in New Zealand whether you have a 1 bedroom or a 5. A pushbike or 2 cars.

What does anyone here owe you? This forum is noisy, the internet is noisy. You need to learn to filter it.

Gregnz
02-02-2021, 09:53 PM
Lol...love the comments here. It shows that most of the shareholders are frustrated and most of u guys are under the water. IMO, there is still a lot of water to go through the bridge.

Buffet said.....Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked.

(Still in the green here, albeit my 100%+ returns are now only in the high 90’s).

12278

Gregnz
02-02-2021, 09:58 PM
What does anyone here owe you? This forum is noisy, the internet is noisy. You need to learn to filter it.

Agree with you. I love it when people come here and complain about what’s being discussed, without actually contributing anything. Hence my earlier comment saying people who are learning are also allowed to post...

LEMON
02-02-2021, 10:18 PM
Agree with you. I love it when people come here and complain about what’s being discussed, without actually contributing anything. Hence my earlier comment saying people who are learning are also allowed to post...

Define contributing?
You just blab away to sound smart, most of you do but it's all dribble.

The people with the most to contribute are the ones with the least to say, and only speak when it matters!
They show up at the table with something to give not just picking at the leftovers that have already been eaten!!

Anyway, no more from me, many will disagree and I do apologise to all but this is forum is like bleeding a rock sometimes!

Gregnz
02-02-2021, 10:30 PM
Define contributing?
You just blab away to sound smart, most of you do but it's all dribble.

The people with the most to contribute are the ones with the least to say, and only speak when it matters!
They show up at the table with something to give not just picking at the leftovers that have already been eaten!!

Through all your political correctness.
He's right, you're wrong.
Regurgitated facts.
Policing the forum.
Finger-pointing what have you offered exactly?
A few remarks from hot copper.
Some speculations?

I may not be as advanced as most here in the market but I try to find my own sources and shares as much as I can with the forum, on new information or videos without dribbling down my chin.

As the previous poster asked, what does the forum owe you?

It’s very easy to criticise those who regularly contribute, but calling people out when their political views aren’t the same as yours is going a bit too far.

And what have I offered? I genuinely wanted input as to how recent changes to climate standards would affect A2, seeing as it has a direct impact on farming, but you obviously missed that point.

porkandpuha
02-02-2021, 10:40 PM
Define contributing?
You just blab away to sound smart, most of you do but it's all dribble.

The people with the most to contribute are the ones with the least to say, and only speak when it matters!
They show up at the table with something to give not just picking at the leftovers that have already been eaten!!

Anyway, no more from me, many will disagree and I do apologise to all but this is forum is like bleeding a rock sometimes!

You ok there?

I think Feb 25th will put an end to a lot of the speculation when we finally have some hard data to trawl through. In the absence of proper news releases and updates from A2 themselves, holders have gone out in search of any headline, however relevant, in an effort to generate discussion. It is what it is.

edit: I finally went and signed up to HC on the back of some info Greg had brought back to ST from HC. It aint that much better over there either.

Gregnz
02-02-2021, 10:46 PM
You ok there?

I think Feb 25th will put an end to a lot of the speculation when we finally have some hard data to trawl through. In the absence of proper news releases and updates from A2 themselves, holders have gone out in search of any headline, however relevant, in an effort to generate discussion. It is what it is.

edit: I finally went and signed up to HC on the back of some info Greg had brought back to ST from HC. It aint that much better over there either.

Honestly, it’s far worse on HC, but there are some real gems once you sift thru all of the noise.
Things like store counts, China sales, corporate Daigou container stats etc.

I’m not one to only speak when I think something matters, because I don’t want to make an assumption as to what matters and what doesn’t.

Maybe I shouldn’t haven’t asked about emissions standards and farming, but seeing as it’s basically the sector A2 operate in, I thought it to be rather pertinent.

King1212
02-02-2021, 10:48 PM
Lol...ATM is a trading stock...not to a love stock

LEMON
02-02-2021, 11:04 PM
What does anyone here owe you? This forum is noisy, the internet is noisy. You need to learn to filter it.

Yes, you're right im not owe anything, it was a selfish point in my attempt to get across that some people prefer the sound of their voices so much that they'll purposely talk nonsense to seem like they are important!

It's not about ATM share price or business at times.

It's about measuring the size if their ....'s next to one another.

Balance
02-02-2021, 11:49 PM
Can sense some real hurt out there with ATM holders who bought too high.

Trying to seek affirmation and quick answer on this forum as to what to do.

Answer has always been here - you just have to pick who & what to read & listen to!

Gregnz
02-02-2021, 11:59 PM
Can sense some real hurt out there with ATM holders who bought too high.

Trying to seek affirmation and quick answer on this forum as to what to do.

Answer has always been here - you just have to pick who & what to read & listen to!

I'm still a believer for the long term, I bought a chunk at $15 which in hindsight I shouldn't have. Oh well. Cant always pick winners.

I get the feeling my post about methane emissions struck a certain cord with some, hence they deemed it to be nonsense.

Even though I'm holding a sizeable A2 investment, I still want to see the good, the bad and the ugly.

King1212
03-02-2021, 03:33 AM
Ouch....$15....

ratkin
03-02-2021, 04:50 AM
Deleted.....

winner69
03-02-2021, 06:35 AM
Ouch....$15....

He’s still 99.39% up with current holding $144,116.19 (no link just his screenshot)

TLM54
03-02-2021, 07:25 AM
I also bought at $15. The technicals looked good at the time. substantial support, downward price action with upward MACD, break above downward trendline. It was poised to break out on the day of AGM, and it did for a bit. The flush down was completely unexpected from a technical standpoint and from a fundamental standpoint we were just a little out from closing out 1H2021, yet they claimed they were well on track to meet their previous guidance.

Considering all that, I don't think $15 was a bad pick.

For a lot of us, holding after that breakdown was the mistake because clearly, in hindsight, something wasn't right.

I sold off after the dead cats bounce and moved on to scrap back the losses elsewhere. It is what it is.

Company still has an impressive bank balance and plenty of runway for growth. I also like the product and the brand but like many others now, I have concerns about the insiders and the board.

Mrbuyit
03-02-2021, 07:41 AM
There was an interesting point a few pages back with regards to mataura valley milk, and the govt expectations of phasing out coal as an energy source in the coming years.
When drying milk concentrate energy costs (electricity and coal /gas etc) are normally the largest costs after the purchase of the raw product, and staff costs. Depending on how much 'fat' is in your business..

A coal to biomass fuel conversion, not only has a one off cost associated with changes required for the burner arrangement and dust management, but currently is significantly more expensive to operate.. A coal boiler might cost ~4m /year you would be up to 11-12m /year for no actual reduction in CO exiting the boiler stack...

This is probably more of an issue for fonterra with a reliance on coal fired boilers dotted around the countryside, but also a of consideration is do we actually have capacity to make enough wood pellets / chips in consistent supply in the right parts of the country (200t /day per boiler) once demand starts to shoot up?

James108
03-02-2021, 08:20 AM
I also bought at $15ish but am still up slightly from earlier buys. At the end of the day ATM is extremely cheap at the moment (would usually abbreviate that to 'atm' but..) if it continues growing and gaining share in China/Aus daigou. If it doesn't, then it is a bit expensive.

I haven't heard anything that convinces me one way or the other so far, so I am sitting on hands for now.

A few members being a bit snarky, like they know better or like they have never bought a share that has gone down?

kiora
03-02-2021, 08:29 AM
A more balanced view of CCC ?
https://www.interest.co.nz/rural-news/108850/despite-shrill-glee-greenpeace-guy-trafford-shows-livestock-numbers-are-falling?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Wednesday+3 +February+2021

Balance
03-02-2021, 08:57 AM
I also bought at $15ish but am still up slightly from earlier buys. At the end of the day ATM is extremely cheap at the moment (would usually abbreviate that to 'atm' but..) if it continues growing and gaining share in China/Aus daigou. If it doesn't, then it is a bit expensive.

I haven't heard anything that convinces me one way or the other so far, so I am sitting on hands for now.

A few members being a bit snarky, like they know better or like they have never bought a share that has gone down?

We all do but we do not come to this forum bitching and moaning about postings which do not affirm our investment decisions.

We debate and discuss the postings - and make our own minds as what to do next.

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 09:16 AM
Ouch....$15....

I have no doubt, given time, this will easily surpass $15. At which point my overall portfolio returns will be nearer to $200k in the green.
All very well sitting on the sidelines criticising others and suggesting we are all underwater, but as Im sure you know with investing, sometimes you pick winners and sometimes you
dont. It doesn’t mean they don’t eventually become winners with time. My hands aren’t weak enough to sell out when I still believe in my initial reasons for investing.

If only those people who are piling their funds into GME and AMC could understand how to do a fundamental analysis of a business.

bull....
03-02-2021, 09:21 AM
I have no doubt, given time, this will easily surpass $15.

If only those people who are piling their funds into GME and AMC could understand how to do a fundamental analysis of a business.

but the market has decided its not worth $15

Balance
03-02-2021, 09:22 AM
but the market has decided its not worth $15

And certainly not worth $20 when the buyers did their fundamental analysis & bought off management who sold in big lumps to them?

bull....
03-02-2021, 09:25 AM
And certainly not worth $20 when the buyers did their fundamental analysis & bought off management who sold?

management are good fundamental analysts

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 09:33 AM
but the market has decided its not worth $15

Read my post again, I said given time. Of course the market has decided it isn’t otherwise it would be trading at $15.
This is a easy long term investment for me.

bull....
03-02-2021, 09:36 AM
Read my post again, I said given time. Of course the market has decided it isn’t otherwise it would be trading at $15.
This is a easy long term investment for me.

in the investment world ... time is money.

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 09:39 AM
in the investment world ... time is money.

Im not a trader. I’ve made more than a few years salary after tax simply by buying the initial Covid dip. The last time I bought anything was A2 @ $15.04. Time really means nothing to me when I’m in my 30’s and have over 30 years of working life ahead of me. Assuming I retire at 65.

James108
03-02-2021, 09:46 AM
If the market is always right why are you on this forum? Something to think about...

bull....
03-02-2021, 09:48 AM
Im not a trader. I’ve made more than a few years salary after tax simply by buying the initial Covid dip. The last time I bought anything was A2 @ $15.04. Time really means nothing to me when I’m in my 30’s and have over 30 years of working life ahead of me. Assuming I retire at 65.

if a2 stays around current pricing for years and doesnt pay a dividend and another person earns a dividend say on another stock which does nothing.

who is ahead ? time is money thats why i guess you have a diversified portfolio to cover your a2 risk of earning no income

bull....
03-02-2021, 09:50 AM
If the market is always right why are you on this forum? Something to think about...

if your talking to me , im only on this forum to fill in time while i watch the screen , no other reason

King1212
03-02-2021, 09:51 AM
The fellow is in love with the stock bull...no need to lecture the poster....

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 09:52 AM
If the market is always right why are you on this forum? Something to think about...

Some here think that you can only pick winners. I’m just honest enough to admit I can’t.

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 09:54 AM
if a2 stays around current pricing for years and doesnt pay a dividend and another person earns a dividend say on another stock which does nothing.

who is ahead ? time is money thats why i guess you have a diversified portfolio to cover your a2 risk of earning no income

Yes you’ve answered your question, diversified.

My initial analysis and subsequent more recent analysis still confirms my initial reason for investing. I don’t think I will be waiting years to be in the green on A2 and potentially even sooner for a dividend to commence. If it takes longer than I planned, oh well, I’ll wait.

James108
03-02-2021, 10:51 AM
Responding to bull: Well that makes sense given your posts, but follow up question is if the market is never wrong why do you buy individual shares? Surely that would be wasting your time.

James108
03-02-2021, 10:54 AM
Responding to king: I’m not and it actually makes up less of my portfolio than the weighting on the nzx50, and as I measure my performance against the nzx50, I actually do better when ATM goes down.. go figure.

What there is no reason to do is provide opinions without reasoning.

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 10:59 AM
There was an interesting point a few pages back with regards to mataura valley milk, and the govt expectations of phasing out coal as an energy source in the coming years.
When drying milk concentrate energy costs (electricity and coal /gas etc) are normally the largest costs after the purchase of the raw product, and staff costs. Depending on how much 'fat' is in your business..

A coal to biomass fuel conversion, not only has a one off cost associated with changes required for the burner arrangement and dust management, but currently is significantly more expensive to operate.. A coal boiler might cost ~4m /year you would be up to 11-12m /year for no actual reduction in CO exiting the boiler stack...

This is probably more of an issue for fonterra with a reliance on coal fired boilers dotted around the countryside, but also a of consideration is do we actually have capacity to make enough wood pellets / chips in consistent supply in the right parts of the country (200t /day per boiler) once demand starts to shoot up?

I've seen quite a bit of discussion around why A2 invested in Mataura. Being in southland, its best positioned to capitalise on any surplus electricity from Manapouri (if and when Tiwai closes). Transpower have already stated that it isn't efficient to simply send that power north (heat in conductors creates energy loss). They are already investing hundreds of millions to expand line capacity, but I imagine they will look to other southland businesses to absorb surplus.

This article about Mataura says that while it was more cost effective to use coal initially, the plant had the capability to transfer to a more environmentally friendly alternative when commercially viable: https://www.theensign.co.nz/community/plant-to-use-up-to-1m-of-water-a-day/

I'd think given the governments emissions targets, converting coal boilers to other energy sources is pretty low hanging fruit, and I imagine its definitely on their radar (or should be).

Also: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/why-electricity-will-replace-coal-in-dairy-plants

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 11:01 AM
& apologies in advance for my lengthy posts. (I'm on annual leave for the week) Sorry.

Balance
03-02-2021, 11:59 AM
& apologies in advance for my lengthy posts. (I'm on annual leave for the week) Sorry.

No need for apologies.

Information is key to making good investment decisions and posters can discern good from bad, useful from useless information.

TLM54
03-02-2021, 12:06 PM
Everyone has their own convictions and strategy. we dont need to justify our strategy to anyone but ourselves.

The current chart structure is still bearish. the price action yesterday confirmed the triangle or wedge trading pattern, which indicates a probability of a bearish continuation. if the supporting trend line breaks, we could see a price target as low as $9.10 in the next trading range.

porkandpuha
03-02-2021, 12:10 PM
Everyone has their own convictions and strategy. we dont need to justify our strategy to anyone but ourselves.

The current chart structure is still bearish. the price action yesterday confirmed the triangle or wedge trading pattern, which indicates a probability of a bearish continuation. if the supporting trend line breaks, we could see a price target as low as $9.10 in the next trading range.

Does TA account for much right now? Fairly certain most investors and traders are waiting for a bit of guidance from the report later this month which will provide the strongest indicator of the future.

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 12:16 PM
Does TA account for much right now? Fairly certain most investors and traders are waiting for a bit of guidance from the report later this month which will provide the strongest indicator of the future.

The price action is definitely interesting. I’m not a chartist, wouldn’t have a clue how to interpret one, but was very telling on the ASX when it was within touching distance of $11 AUD, only to be knocked back on decent volume (while at the same time short positions appear to be closing).

I do find it interesting that a share price will fall 50+ cents with no new updates/guidance from the company. Suggests to me that those with short positions are doing their best to subdue the share price.

Balance
03-02-2021, 12:21 PM
The price action is definitely interesting. I’m not a chartist, wouldn’t have a clue how to interpret one, but was very telling on the ASX when it was within touching distance of $11 AUD, only to be knocked back on decent volume (while at the same time short positions appear to be closing).

I do find it interesting that a share price will fall 50+ cents with no new updates/guidance from the company. Suggests to me that those with short positions are doing their best to subdue the share price.

Actually, they have been buying back shares.

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 12:29 PM
Actually, they have been buying back shares.

I see. So buying them pushed the share price higher initially. I guess now another opportunity for them to start buying again. Only another 57,579,000 (approx) to buy back.
That could be interpreted as shorters perhaps leaning towards a positive update end of Feb, and don’t want to be caught short?

Balance
03-02-2021, 12:43 PM
I see. So buying them pushed the share price higher initially. I guess now another opportunity for them to start buying again. Only another 57,579,000 (approx) to buy back.
That could be interpreted as shorters perhaps leaning towards a positive update end of Feb, and don’t want to be caught short?

Taking some $$$ off the table and in the process, supporting the share price.

I am still picking a downgrade when the new CEO presents the H1 results - clear the decks & skeletons from the cupboards.

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 12:57 PM
Taking some $$$ off the table and in the process, supporting the share price.

I am still picking a downgrade when the new CEO presents the H1 results - clear the decks & skeletons from the cupboards.

I guess I would have thought that they would be doubling down and increasing their short position sizes if they were confident of another downgrade.
I’m not confident either way, I suspect they feel the same. I was pleasantly surprised when I read the Bub’s quarterly update to see such a remarkable recovery in Daigou.

dreamcatcher
03-02-2021, 02:02 PM
Probably just @bull closing but last few days shorts decreased by approx 1m (sorry plus the 4 days)

Think a2 would have notified market (by now) if forecast not met.

alokdhir
03-02-2021, 03:08 PM
Probably just @bull closing but last few days shorts decreased by approx 1m (sorry plus the 4 days)

Think a2 would have notified market (by now) if forecast not met.

Which forecast u talking here buddy ? HY 670 mil figure or FY 1400 mil one ..

HY 670 is almost a certainty as was given 2 weeks before HY ended ...FY forecast changes too far ahead given their past experience of down grading 2 weeks before year ending date

So nothing much can change in HY numbers ...Full year guidance can change up or down and they have time to do that at HY announcement so no requirement to bring any price sensitive information before meeting

sb9
03-02-2021, 03:12 PM
I am still picking a downgrade when the new CEO presents the H1 results - clear the decks & skeletons from the cupboards.

I pretty much doubt that, as they've revised guidance just before Christmas and re FY numbers, there're still bit of time to get a handle on things.

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 03:16 PM
Which forecast u talking here buddy ? HY 670 mil figure or FY 1400 mil one ..

HY 670 is almost a certainty as was given 2 weeks before HY ended ...FY forecast changes too far ahead given their past experience of down grading 2 weeks before year ending date

So nothing much can change in HY numbers ...Full year guidance can change up or down and they have time to do that at HY announcement so no requirement to bring any price sensitive information before meeting

He’s talking HY, which we know will be met. Unless the sh*t hits the fan with Covid between now and full year, given the updates from other companies about corporate Daigou recovering and strong sales in China, I’d lean towards FY guidance being met also. I don’t feel their FY guidance was overly optimistic, so things would have really go downhill to miss that target.

alokdhir
03-02-2021, 03:20 PM
He’s talking HY, which we know will be met. Unless the sh*t hits the fan with Covid between now and full year, given the updates from other companies about corporate Daigou recovering and strong sales in China, I’d lean towards FY guidance being met also. I don’t feel their FY guidance was overly optimistic, so things would have really go downhill to miss that target.

Point I was trying to make that for FY guidance report to come there is lots of time ...as he was expecting an announcement about FY forecast now !!!!

He should be expecting that in the month of May IMHO

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 03:26 PM
Point I was trying to make that for FY guidance report to come there is lots of time ...as he was expecting an announcement about FY forecast now !!!!

He should be expecting that in the month of May IMHO

Usually towards end of August for FY.

Balance
03-02-2021, 03:28 PM
Point I was trying to make that for FY guidance report to come there is lots of time ...as he was expecting an announcement about FY forecast now !!!!

He should be expecting that in the month of May IMHO

New CEO is going to want to start his tenure with a clean slate.

Nothing worse than what happened to Ross Taylor at FBU - took over and did not account for all the skeletons in the cupboards.

alokdhir
03-02-2021, 03:32 PM
Usually towards end of August for FY.


I was talking about a trading update information announcement ....as thats what he was looking for

" Think a2 would have notified market (by now) if forecast not met. "

winner69
03-02-2021, 03:41 PM
New CEO is going to want to start his tenure with a clean slate.

Nothing worse than what happened to Ross Taylor at FBU - took over and did not account for all the skeletons in the cupboards.

The new man made sure Pacific Brands got rid of skeletons etc and went through a few more previous downgrades ....and then hey presto it surprised the market with a big profit upgrade and he was a hero .....and then Pacific Brands got taken over

TLM54
03-02-2021, 03:49 PM
He’s talking HY, which we know will be met. Unless the sh*t hits the fan with Covid between now and full year, given the updates from other companies about corporate Daigou recovering and strong sales in China, I’d lean towards FY guidance being met also. I don’t feel their FY guidance was overly optimistic, so things would have really go downhill to miss that target.

I don't think i've seen any news about ANZ daigous improving. I would expect daigous to deteriorate further in 2H21 due to students graduating in late 2020 and leaving and temporary visitor's visas expiring and going home. since there's no inflow of new students and visitors replacing those who left towards the end of 2020, it's hard to see daigou sales improving over 1H21 unless AUS gets a decent inflow of people from China.

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 03:57 PM
I don't think i've seen any news about ANZ daigous improving. I would expect daigous to deteriorate further in 2H21 due to students graduating in late 2020 and leaving and temporary visitor's visas expiring and going home. since there's no inflow of new students and visitors replacing those who left towards the end of 2020, it's hard to see daigou sales improving over 1H21 unless AUS gets a decent inflow of people from China.

Id suggest reading Bubs recent quarterly update, Corporate Daigou up 122%.

Id also add, 150,000 Daigou live in Australia, they aren’t temporary students or visitors.

12281

Mrbuyit
03-02-2021, 04:13 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but bubs would be on a tiny scale when compared to ATM, so a 100% increase is probably pocket change?

Disc: hold ATM as my second largest holding behind OCA having accumulated enough recently for the time being.

Gregnz
03-02-2021, 04:15 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but bubs would be on a tiny scale when compared to ATM, so a 100% increase is probably pocket change?

Disc: hold ATM as my second largest holding behind OCA having accumulated enough recently for the time being.

Yes they are tiny. But the corporate Daigou dynamics would be similar. It could be argued that Corporate Daigou for A2 is better equipped to capitalise on any recovery in that channel.

Leftfield
03-02-2021, 05:09 PM
The new man made sure Pacific Brands got rid of skeletons etc and went through a few more previous downgrades ....and then hey presto it surprised the market with a big profit upgrade and he was a hero .....and then Pacific Brands got taken over

So we should hold pending $30 ps plus takeover offer. Bring it on. :t_up:

Balance
03-02-2021, 06:02 PM
Id suggest reading Bubs recent quarterly update, Corporate Daigou up 122%.

Id also add, 150,000 Daigou live in Australia, they aren’t temporary students or visitors.



I personally would not read too much into the 122% increase - this is 2Q vs 1Q.

1Q was July - Sept which was the worst of the Victorian 111 days lockdown when daigou sales would have virtually fallen off the cliff.

So 2Q increase on 1Q of 122% does not equate much imo. More relevant if BUB advised Q2 F2021 vs Q2 F2020 sales decrease/increase.

Also, ATM's second profit downgrade was announced well into December (18 Dec) - which indicates that ATM has not seen the same sort of recovery as BUB in 2Q.

Probably why ATM's sp was sold off after the initial sp rise from the BUB's announcement after analysts have had a good look at BUB's results.

dreamcatcher
03-02-2021, 06:50 PM
Think the skeletons are already out but my opinion a2 to exceed 670m but a hold either way for me.

All free-held so certainly an easy decision but increased my holdings in bubs with positive corporate daigou UBS a2 TP NZ$17 - Analysis points to range $10.00-$23.50 with downside including no China recovery

porkandpuha
03-02-2021, 09:48 PM
2 million shares covered by shorters from Jan 27th to Jan 28th. Right in the heart of the Gamestop squeeze.

dreamcatcher
03-02-2021, 11:39 PM
2 million shares covered by shorters from Jan 27th to Jan 28th. Right in the heart of the Gamestop squeeze.
Thanks for that only 50m more to go !!

Sen Warren says Wall St hedge funds been manipulating the market for years and years and years couldn't agree more. These weekly games on the ASX of course all perfectly legal now getting heaps of attention. Hedge Funds now crying help us its not fair we are losing money, welcome to the games in reverse pal. Understand people been talking about a2 on Reddit. If we see a surge of buying we know why could one dream $100 ................wake up boy?

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/31/elizabeth-warren-reddit-game-stop-wall-street-sec-sot-sotu-bash-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/this-week-in-politics/

alokdhir
04-02-2021, 06:46 AM
Think the skeletons are already out but my opinion a2 to exceed 670m but a hold either way for me.

All free-held so certainly an easy decision but increased my holdings in bubs with positive corporate daigou UBS a2 TP NZ$17 - Analysis points to range $10.00-$23.50 with downside including no China recovery

U expecting more then 670 m ? If that happens then I will loose all faith in ATM management and its MIS ...:D

bull....
04-02-2021, 07:48 AM
A2 director’s husband on opposite side of Mataura deal




Bortolussi starts next week and will receive $3.7 million worth of shares that will vest within two years of his appointment

https://www.afr.com/rear-window/a2-director-s-husband-on-opposite-side-of-mataura-deal-20210203-p56z6n

Balance
04-02-2021, 08:16 AM
Thanks for that only 50m more to go !!

Sen Warren says Wall St hedge funds been manipulating the market for years and years and years couldn't agree more. These weekly games on the ASX of course all perfectly legal now getting heaps of attention. Hedge Funds now crying help us its not fair we are losing money, welcome to the games in reverse pal. Understand people been talking about a2 on Reddit. If we see a surge of buying we know why could one dream $100 ................wake up boy?

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/31/elizabeth-warren-reddit-game-stop-wall-street-sec-sot-sotu-bash-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/this-week-in-politics/

Points to note :

1. Reddit crowd getting their backside burnt with GameStop shares now in free fall. They were superbly manipulated by a few big hitters who made super profits from the short coverings.

2. There is a world of difference between naked shorts (as in GameStop) vs covered shorts (as in ASX stocks). Naked shorts are NOT allowed on ASX stocks.

Know the difference and you will understand why GameStop happened.

Balance
04-02-2021, 08:17 AM
A2 director’s husband on opposite side of Mataura deal




Bortolussi starts next week and will receive $3.7 million worth of shares that will vest within two years of his appointment

https://www.afr.com/rear-window/a2-director-s-husband-on-opposite-side-of-mataura-deal-20210203-p56z6n







As long as it’s all fully disclosed and there is no conflict of interest, good on him.

sb9
04-02-2021, 08:20 AM
As long as it’s all fully disclosed and there is no conflict of interest, good on him.

His wife and A2 Director Pip Greenwood was kept of negotiations relating Mataura deal due to conflict of interest, nothing to see here, move on...

dobby41
04-02-2021, 09:19 AM
Points to note :

1. Reddit crowd getting their backside burnt with GameStop shares now in free fall. They were superbly manipulated by a few big hitters who made super profits from the short coverings.

Something I don't understand is how the Reddit crowd was ever not going to be burnt - the price was never going to stay up that high.
Maybe it was to be a case of lots of the little people losing a little each but taking the big guys for a lot. At some stage the shorts were going to win as the price was just unreasonably high.

Balance
04-02-2021, 09:25 AM
Something I don't understand is how the Reddit crowd was ever not going to be burnt - the price was never going to stay up that high.
Maybe it was to be a case of lots of the little people losing a little each but taking the big guys for a lot. At some stage the shorts were going to win as the price was just unreasonably high.

The naked short sellers were burnt something horrible but the covered short sellers who sold high (above $200+) are laughing like well fed hyenas.

Meanwhile, reddit intra day traders who thought GameStop can be a recipe for becoming millionaires as they moved to other stocks snd silver are getting burnt something terrible.

All rather predictable snd sad, really.

silu
04-02-2021, 09:41 AM
The naked short sellers were burnt something horrible but the covered short sellers who sold high (above $200+) are laughing like well fed hyenas.

Meanwhile, reddit intra day traders who thought GameStop can be a recipe for becoming millionaires as they moved to other stocks snd silver are getting burnt something terrible.

All rather predictable snd sad, really.

I know one person who was so swept up in the "we can beat the big guys" euphoria and obviously got in at the wrong end of the rally and now is hoping it will come right again. Useless to talk to. Doesn't want to hear a single opinion about why he might be wrong. Reminds me of a mate who still tries to tell me that I just don't understand Tesla and there is still lots of value in it. But then I was the same many years ago and boy did I learn from my mistakes.

BigBob
04-02-2021, 09:46 AM
The naked short sellers were burnt something horrible but the covered short sellers who sold high (above $200+) are laughing like well fed hyenas.

Meanwhile, reddit intra day traders who thought GameStop can be a recipe for becoming millionaires as they moved to other stocks snd silver are getting burnt something terrible.

All rather predictable snd sad, really.

Very true, but it might have worked out differently if the big boys hadn't clubbed together and changed the rules of the game, in effect preventing the reddit crowd and other retail investors from buying GME and other heavily shorted stocks just as things were getting interesting...

porkandpuha
04-02-2021, 10:03 AM
Something I don't understand is how the Reddit crowd was ever not going to be burnt - the price was never going to stay up that high.
Maybe it was to be a case of lots of the little people losing a little each but taking the big guys for a lot. At some stage the shorts were going to win as the price was just unreasonably high.

From what I can gather on some of the NZ facebook groups, the mob believed they were part of some noble crusade to take down Wall Street and didn't care if they lost their dough while fighting the fight. Despite Wall Street shifting the goal posts mid game, the end game was always going to result in novice investors holding the bag as we are starting to see. So who really won?

LEMON
04-02-2021, 10:04 AM
I know one person who was so swept up in the "we can beat the big guys" euphoria and got in at the wrong end of the rally and now is hoping it will come right again. Useless to talk to. Doesn't want to hear a single opinion about why he might be wrong. Reminds me of a mate who still tries to tell me that I just don't understand Tesla and there is still lots of value in it. But then I was the same many years ago and boy did I learn from my mistakes.

This is very true, I was telling a group the other day to be careful as it will crash. As they proceed to add funds the next day it crashed and they insist it will fly again.
Very funny how common sense goes out the window in pursuit of money.
I can only hope no one burned to hard, but it will be a big lesson for many, in saying that not all take the lesson and insist they must "win"

bull....
04-02-2021, 10:31 AM
could easily argue anyone invested in the market now has been swept up by the mania. be plenty of people telling you after the crash ... i told you so lol

dreamcatcher
04-02-2021, 11:01 AM
From what I can gather on some of the NZ facebook groups, the mob believed they were part of some noble crusade to take down Wall Street and didn't care if they lost their dough while fighting the fight. Despite Wall Street shifting the goal posts mid game, the end game was always going to result in novice investors holding the bag as we are starting to see. So who really won?

Agree -Wall St hedge funds manipulative practices have now been brought to the attention of regulators which was probably the goal. Also wonder if only been able to Sell but not Buy GME is considered FAIR

"Yellen has asked to discuss recent volatility and whether trade has been consistent with fair and efficient markets"

Swings in some Reddit favorites ease; Yellen eyes stock volatility | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-retail-trading/reddit-trading-frenzy-fades-as-yellen-summons-agencies-idUSKBN2A30Q4)

777
04-02-2021, 11:48 AM
To get this back on thread.

No comments on the $3.7 million the new boss picks up for simply parking his car in the correct spot next week. Taints of the last stuff up by the board.

Biscuit
04-02-2021, 12:00 PM
To get this back on thread.

No comments on the $3.7 million the new boss picks up for simply parking his car in the correct spot next week. Taints of the last stuff up by the board.


Why are people always itching to "get back on thread"? Say something interesting and the thread will follow. That is the thread. Say something interesting and "on topic" and the thread will go back on topic. The CEO, just like the rest of us, will get paid his agreed salary wherever he parks his car.

Balance
04-02-2021, 12:53 PM
To get this back on thread.

No comments on the $3.7 million the new boss picks up for simply parking his car in the correct spot next week. Taints of the last stuff up by the board.

$3.7m is cheap if he performs.

$3.7m is horrendously expensive if he proves to be a waste of space.

This guy is a proven performer with Pacific Brands?

777
04-02-2021, 01:12 PM
Why are people always itching to "get back on thread"? Say something interesting and the thread will follow. That is the thread. Say something interesting and "on topic" and the thread will go back on topic. The CEO, just like the rest of us, will get paid his agreed salary wherever he parks his car.

Always one isn't there.

I wasn't commenting on his salary. It was the issue of shares to him before he even started that I was referring to. I thought it was interesting , sorry you don't.

Balance
04-02-2021, 01:37 PM
Always one isn't there.

I wasn't commenting on his salary. It was the issue of shares to him before he even started that I was referring to. I thought it was interesting , sorry you don't.

Let's hope he stays around long enough to earn the welcome bonus?

Jayne Hrdlicka lasted all of 16 months before the board decided she was too hot to trot .

If the truth be known, she actually had the right strategy in mind to offset ATM's over-reliance on the Daigou sales channel.

The rest as they say, is history.

How confident are we that the board has made the right decision this time (paying $3.7m to entice him) and will they support him if he comes up with the same strategy as Jayne?

Entrep
04-02-2021, 01:37 PM
Why are people always itching to "get back on thread"? Say something interesting and the thread will follow. That is the thread. Say something interesting and "on topic" and the thread will go back on topic. The CEO, just like the rest of us, will get paid his agreed salary wherever he parks his car.
Covfefe
Covfefe

Biscuit
04-02-2021, 02:47 PM
..... will they support him if he comes up with the same strategy as Jayne?

You would think they discussed strategy with him prior to appointing him? Maybe they just discussed shares and car parking?

dreamcatcher
04-02-2021, 02:56 PM
Covfefe
Covfefe

Trump had a few deficiencies spelling been one ............means someone get me a COFFEE

Balance
04-02-2021, 10:07 PM
You would think they discussed strategy with him prior to appointing him? Maybe they just discussed shares and car parking?

You would think so, wouldn’t you?

Did they discuss strategy with Jayne before appointing her and then, disagreeing with her 15 months later?

Short term pain for long term gain - rather fundamental!

Balance
04-02-2021, 10:59 PM
Motley Fool update : A2 Milk Company Ltd

A2 Milk shares are liked by at least four brokers including UBS and Morgans.

The A2 Milk share price is down by around 45% over the last six months.

UBS believes that A2 Milk could benefit from a recovery of sales with infant formula as it reactivates its daigou channel over the next year and a half. The broker also thinks that company could achieve market share gains at Chinese mother and baby stores.

However, whilst there continues to be COVID-19 restrictions for international visitors, combined with disappointing export data, it’s likely that there will be weak infant formula sales for the time being.

A2 Milk itself has admitted to these problems. In the most recent update the company said that the disruption in the daigou channel, which represents a significant portion of the infant nutrition sales in the Australia and New Zealand business, was proving to be more significant and protracted than was previously anticipated.

One problem for the ASX share is that the daigou channel disruption is having a material impact on the cross border e-commerce channel (CBEC). A2 Milk says that the daigou channel plays an important role in stimulating demand across multiple sales channels, including CBEC.

A2 Milk said that it intends to strengthen its focus on reactivating the daigou channel in the second half of FY21.

On the mother and baby store (MBS) front in China, A2 Milk said that this remains very strong – it’s expecting to report revenue growth of 40% from this channel. The 12-month rolling market value share in MBS also continues to increase, it was 2.3% as at the end of October, with increases in both same store sales and the number of new stores in the first half.

dreamcatcher
05-02-2021, 12:27 AM
Good breakdown of UBS write up

Balance
05-02-2021, 08:50 AM
https://www.marketscreener.com/quote/stock/THE-A2-MILK-COMPANY-LIMIT-11384022/

Consensus recommendation from 9 brokers : Hold

Mean target price : $13.56 vs $10.97

23% upside potential vs potential 3rd downgrade - hmmmm

James108
05-02-2021, 09:08 AM
So what is it? Will atm keep growing? If so price is surely cheap? Or are recent downgrades indicative of no/low growth going forward but being blamed on covid.

Balance
05-02-2021, 09:16 AM
So what is it? Will atm keep growing? If so price is surely cheap? Or are recent downgrades indicative of no/low growth going forward but being blamed on covid.

That’s the great thing about the market - opposing views and one will be right! Choose carefully!

BlackPeter
05-02-2021, 09:20 AM
So what is it? Will atm keep growing? If so price is surely cheap? Or are recent downgrades indicative of no/low growth going forward but being blamed on covid.

Correct :);

Balance
05-02-2021, 09:26 AM
Correct :);

As they say, on the one hand but on the other hand.

winner69
06-02-2021, 12:57 PM
Correct :);

A bit like price is what you pay, value is what you make the spreadsheet come up with.

King1212
06-02-2021, 01:37 PM
Bunch of desperate holders looking for answers...

McPussPuss
06-02-2021, 02:25 PM
Hah, got anything constructive to add? Hotcopper wants you back

Bunch of desperate holders looking for answers...

King1212
06-02-2021, 02:43 PM
All u all want to hear is atm will head back to $20...with short position around 7percent...n increasing up....u all might wonder why the sp keep down...

All u want to hear is positive comments ..lol

Habits
06-02-2021, 03:03 PM
Bought recently but will sell on Monday and reinvest into other stocks. Fonterra perhaps, which is on a growth path and upgrading forecasts

Snoopy
06-02-2021, 04:03 PM
Bought recently but will sell on Monday and reinvest into other stocks. Fonterra perhaps, which is on a growth path and upgrading forecasts


Be careful with that. The listed FSF that you can buy into is the upstream processing part of the company. A higher milk price might be good for farmers. But it is bad for FSF because they have to pay for their milk to process at 'market rates'. As a processor, you do not want your input costs to go up!

SNOOPY

winner69
06-02-2021, 04:43 PM
The way many talk on this thread you’d think A2 is on its last legs and heading to the bankruptcy courts

McPussPuss
06-02-2021, 04:44 PM
No, you have me wrong.

I just wanted to get some extra insight from you regarding the pressure the daigou channel is presently under and how this is adversely impacting the CBEC channels. Also how these two factors are providing a solid narrative behind shorting and in addition why the new CEO will have his hands full and ultimately fail to bring the company and it's share price back to the overpriced, frothy heights seen just under 12 months ago.

Your insights are usually a lot more substantial and sharp and I genuinely urge you return to your own high standards as I have a hunger for quality analysis.


All u all want to hear is atm will head back to $20...with short position around 7percent...n increasing up....u all might wonder why the sp keep down...

All u want to hear is positive comments ..lol

Baa_Baa
06-02-2021, 05:15 PM
The way many talk on this thread you’d think A2 is on its last legs and heading to the bankruptcy courts

Aint that the truth, a good sign to be averaging in when the fear is almost palpable. Personally I don't really worry too much if it goes down or sideways for awhile, there's a few things the new CEO has to get fixed but that said they'll still be sitting on a cash mountain, making a truckload of revenue and profits.

Downside risk imho is minimal, upside risk is attractive at these prices. Happy to do the swings and roundabouts while things settle down, but haven't missed a re-entry and have some moola left over if SP goes lower.

winner69
06-02-2021, 05:40 PM
All u all want to hear is atm will head back to $20...with short position around 7percent...n increasing up....u all might wonder why the sp keep down...

All u want to hear is positive comments ..lol

Excuse me your majesty for saying thsi is not one of your better posts

King1212
06-02-2021, 05:43 PM
Well master winner...all these people started....u can not even say anything bad about ATM.... people here is so on the moon with this stock..

As soon as someone post something that these holders don't like...they will attacked u hard.

People need to relax here....


N I am loving it when see all these people crying like a girl

Gregnz
06-02-2021, 07:13 PM
King1212, Your talking like your either high or drunk. Is it English you are writing?

McPussPuss
06-02-2021, 08:44 PM
I guess we may be waiting a week or two for his excellent input to return to the forum, he will be sorely missed

King1212, Your talking like your either high or drunk. Is it English you are writing?

Baa_Baa
06-02-2021, 09:43 PM
I guess we may be waiting a week or two for his excellent input to return to the forum, he will be sorely missed

We’ll see how that ages.

Habits
06-02-2021, 10:20 PM
Be careful with that. The listed FSF that you can buy into is the upstream processing part of the company. A higher milk price might be good for farmers. But it is bad for FSF because they have to pay for their milk to process at 'market rates'. As a processor, you do not want your input costs to go up!

SNOOPY
Yes you're quite right, higher input costs means lower EBIT for the company... i will wait at least until the next results in March before making a presumptive move to FSF. Thanks.

nztx
06-02-2021, 10:35 PM
Well master winner...all these people started....u can not even say anything bad about ATM.... people here is so on the moon with this stock..

As soon as someone post something that these holders don't like...they will attacked u hard.

People need to relax here....


N I am loving it when see all these people crying like a girl


I been waiting twice now for as the WSB folk would say 'ATM To The Moon' but it no happen

what went wrong for that to no happen - my friend ? ;)

dreamcatcher
06-02-2021, 11:06 PM
Certainly does not look like shorts increasing since 1st Feb but reducing by 10.77% course these run 4 days behind so be interesting to see if trend continues. Shortmans chart also shows a decrease in shorts. Maybe not all shorts believe result all bad. Course new Unknown CEO strategy may see a BB at these levels a positive and not long before we find out future plans. Everyone can play this game short or long ....your call !!

Latest UBS TP range $10 - $23.50 suggests everything already built in risk/reward low.

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Excerpt UBS "December data suggests A2M's daigou reactivation plan has started…

Our Buy rating is underpinned by a meaningful recovery in indirect IF sales via daigou channel in the next 18 months, plus substantial medium-term China infant formula (IF) share gains through MBS store rollout, and free trade zone expansion with associated CBEC activity. We believe A2M's plan to reactivate its daigou channel is logical, and centres on moderating English-label (A2 Platinum) supply to reduce in channel inventory, and support a China retail price recovery and lift online reseller margins. UBS Evidence Lab data suggests A2M has made its first step along this journey in December, which is consistent with peers seeing a lift in corporate daigou activity"

Balance
09-02-2021, 05:17 PM
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/what-to-expect-this-earnings-season/T2FKB2RWW7U5WDN3XAYI5D5IMY/

paywalled

What to expect this earnings season when NZX companies report next week?

"Allbon said stocks which were difficult to forecast at the moment were A2 Milk and the power companies.

He said A2 had already given guidance in December of its financials but it was more about how the company was going in rebooting its Daigou market."

No guts to make a call, no glory!

Balance
09-02-2021, 06:35 PM
Certainly does not look like shorts increasing since 1st Feb but reducing by 10.77% course these run 4 days behind so be interesting to see if trend continues. Shortmans chart also shows a decrease in shorts. Maybe not all shorts believe result all bad. Course new Unknown CEO strategy may see a BB at these levels a positive and not long before we find out future plans. Everyone can play this game short or long ....your call !!

Latest UBS TP range $10 - $23.50 suggests everything already built in risk/reward low.



https://www.shortman.com.au/stock?q=A2M

Short coverings continue - providing short term price support.

sb9
09-02-2021, 06:45 PM
https://www.shortman.com.au/stock?q=A2M

Short coverings continue - providing short term price support.

Perhaps getting ready for another attack depending on HY report.

Baa_Baa
09-02-2021, 06:54 PM
https://www.shortman.com.au/stock?q=A2M

Short coverings continue - providing short term price support.

Chart is looking promising (https://invst.ly/tr88o), setup for the announce soon, with modest volumes showing a change in trend from pure down to a triple bottom on rising lows, albeit lower highs, undemanding indicators. A classic short term indecision wedge that will break up or down depending on where the results finish against revised guidance. It's all about the numbers now, chart says if you're in for a punt, now is a good time (with tight stops), if you're risk averse just wait.

glta

RupertBear
09-02-2021, 08:17 PM
Chart is looking promising (https://invst.ly/tr88o), setup for the announce soon, with modest volumes showing a change in trend from pure down to a triple bottom on rising lows, albeit lower highs, undemanding indicators. A classic short term indecision wedge that will break up or down depending on where the results finish against revised guidance. It's all about the numbers now, chart says if you're in for a punt, now is a good time (with tight stops), if you're risk averse just wait.

glta

Thanks for your insights Baa Baa much appreciated :)

Balance
09-02-2021, 08:35 PM
Chart is looking promising (https://invst.ly/tr88o), setup for the announce soon, with modest volumes showing a change in trend from pure down to a triple bottom on rising lows, albeit lower highs, undemanding indicators. A classic short term indecision wedge that will break up or down depending on where the results finish against revised guidance. It's all about the numbers now, chart says if you're in for a punt, now is a good time (with tight stops), if you're risk averse just wait.

glta

Third downgrade in the offing - the charts did not pick up the last two downgrades?

Baa_Baa
09-02-2021, 08:47 PM
Third downgrade in the offing - the charts did not pick up the last two downgrades?

No they didn’t, as you know charts are hindsight but an insight into sentiment.

There’s no guarantee of anything, we all make our own calls. I’m happy to have a modest position here with reserves to leap into a good result, or wait until a good result.

You haven’t disclosed your position

Balance
09-02-2021, 09:10 PM
No they didn’t, as you know charts are hindsight but an insight into sentiment.

There’s no guarantee of anything, we all make our own calls. I’m happy to have a modest position here with reserves to leap into a good result, or wait until a good result.

You haven’t disclosed your position

Been there, done that and pleased I got out before the two downgrades.

Still believe that ATM is one of the great success stories of NZ so on my watch list. Not a believer in buying anything on the way down, especially with a potential third downgrade in the offing. Happy to invest on the way up and pay more if appropriate.

bull....
10-02-2021, 08:07 AM
We posted some time ago on this thread a scientific report into how covid would slash birth rates. now evidence is emerging that reinforces the report

China population: tumbling regional birth rates signal scale of country’s ageing crisis


Population data released by some Chinese provinces and cities has shown dramatic declines in the number of newborns in 2020 compared to a year earlier

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3120236/china-population-tumbling-regional-birth-rates-signal-scale

Balance
10-02-2021, 08:37 AM
https://www.fool.com.au/2021/02/08/what-to-expect-from-the-a2-milk-asxa2m-half-year-result/

"Finally, on the bottom line, Goldman expects this to lead to a 36.7% decline in underlying net profit after tax to $119.1 million.

Goldman Sachs will also be paying close attention to its guidance for the full year. The broker is forecasting revenue of NZ$1,478.7 million and EBITDA of NZ$393.9 million for the 12 months. This will be a 14.6% and 28.4% decline, respectively, year on year."

Guess all will be revealed on 25 Feb.

BlackPeter
10-02-2021, 09:23 AM
https://www.fool.com.au/2021/02/08/what-to-expect-from-the-a2-milk-asxa2m-half-year-result/

"Finally, on the bottom line, Goldman expects this to lead to a 36.7% decline in underlying net profit after tax to $119.1 million.

Goldman Sachs will also be paying close attention to its guidance for the full year. The broker is forecasting revenue of NZ$1,478.7 million and EBITDA of NZ$393.9 million for the 12 months. This will be a 14.6% and 28.4% decline, respectively, year on year."

Guess all will be revealed on 25 Feb.

To be frank - analysts forecasts are in average not better than random (flip a coin) ... and the fool is in my experience not even one of the better coin flippers:);

But still - these forecasts don't look flash, and in the short term they might even be right ... there is no reason to assume the Daigou channel worked particularly well over the last half year ...

Sideshow Bob
10-02-2021, 09:25 AM
https://www.fool.com.au/2021/02/08/what-to-expect-from-the-a2-milk-asxa2m-half-year-result/

"Finally, on the bottom line, Goldman expects this to lead to a 36.7% decline in underlying net profit after tax to $119.1 million.

Goldman Sachs will also be paying close attention to its guidance for the full year. The broker is forecasting revenue of NZ$1,478.7 million and EBITDA of NZ$393.9 million for the 12 months. This will be a 14.6% and 28.4% decline, respectively, year on year."

Guess all will be revealed on 25 Feb.

GS and TMF are hardly pushing the boat out......the turnover figures and profit/margin figures are in the area that the company updated a week before Christmas, for the half-year which finished 13 days after the announcement.......

Balance
10-02-2021, 09:34 AM
To be frank - analysts forecasts are in average not better than random (flip a coin) ... and the fool is in my experience not even one of the better coin flippers:);

But still - these forecasts don't look flash, and in the short term they might even be right ... there is no reason to assume the Daigou channel worked particularly well over the last half year ...

Fool is simply summarising the brokers’ views out there - they then impose their own view on the brokers’ views.

Baa_Baa
10-02-2021, 09:45 AM
[snip] ... there is no reason to assume the Daigou channel worked particularly well over the last half year ...

There was some encouraging information on the Daigou channel performance from the BUB's announcement (on ASX). It will be interesting to see whether ATM have a similar experience.

12294

winner69
10-02-2021, 10:00 AM
There was some encouraging information on the Daigou channel performance from the BUB's announcement (on ASX). It will be interesting to see whether ATM have a similar experience.

12294

Wonder how much down % wise in Q1 (vQ4 that is)?

Like you will know that down 55% and then up whooping 122% gets you back to square one

BlackPeter
10-02-2021, 10:02 AM
There was some encouraging information on the Daigou channel performance from the BUB's announcement (on ASX). It will be interesting to see whether ATM have a similar experience.

12294

Mind that little word "Corporate" in "Corporate Daigou". This is not thousands of highly motivated students with a large Chinese selling network (their friends and families), but basically just another bunch of moving companies without particular interest in any product they are moving. The other thing to consider is - big percentage increases in volume might indicate a very small base ...

More important however - the bubs-news I found on corporate daigou is nearly one year old (published 26/2/2020): https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/corporate-daigou-buying-more-bubs-products-amid-coronavirus-20200226-p544jv.html.

If you look for less aged information on corporate daigou, you will find less enthusiasm.

Anyway - I hope all goes well for A2M, but at this stage I won't hold my breath ...

Baa_Baa
10-02-2021, 10:08 AM
Mind that little word "Corporate" in "Corporate Daigou". This is not thousands of highly motivated students with a large Chinese selling network (their friends and families), but basically just another bunch of moving companies without particular interest in any product they are moving. The other thing to consider is - big percentage increases in volume might indicate a very small base ...

More important however - the bubs-news I found on corporate daigou is nearly one year old (published 26/2/2020): https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/corporate-daigou-buying-more-bubs-products-amid-coronavirus-20200226-p544jv.html.

If you look for less aged information on corporate daigou, you will find less enthusiasm.

Anyway - I hope all goes well for A2M, but at this stage I won't hold my breath ...

Good points as always, caution is warranted, take everything on face value pending the ATM results announce. The BUB quote is from their Quarterly Activities Report announce on ASX 28 January 2021, so it's pretty fresh.

Gregnz
10-02-2021, 10:43 AM
Mind that little word "Corporate" in "Corporate Daigou". This is not thousands of highly motivated students with a large Chinese selling network (their friends and families), but basically just another bunch of moving companies without particular interest in any product they are moving. The other thing to consider is - big percentage increases in volume might indicate a very small base ...

More important however - the bubs-news I found on corporate daigou is nearly one year old (published 26/2/2020): https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/corporate-daigou-buying-more-bubs-products-amid-coronavirus-20200226-p544jv.html.

If you look for less aged information on corporate daigou, you will find less enthusiasm.

Anyway - I hope all goes well for A2M, but at this stage I won't hold my breath ...

To be fair, A2 Andy (corporate Daigou) is probably a bit more than just a moving company. At his peak even A2 admitted he was able to move 1000 pallets of A2 formula a month, and he definitely has an interest in the product he’s moving, I wonder how this volume compares with the retail Daigou (students, mothers , etc).

alokdhir
10-02-2021, 10:45 AM
Did anyone notice new negative developments on the Fisheries front ,exports to China ...they have stopped exports from two facilities in NZ ...exact details not known but seems like some compliance issues
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/major-nz-seafood-exporters-hit-by-chinese-trade-suspension/HFEJPV742NSJCK4EFHMWQQKZP4/

Behind paywall ...

Gregnz
10-02-2021, 11:03 AM
Did anyone notice new negative developments on the Fisheries front ,exports to China ...they have stopped exports from two facilities in NZ ...exact details not known but seems like some compliance issues
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/major-nz-seafood-exporters-hit-by-chinese-trade-suspension/HFEJPV742NSJCK4EFHMWQQKZP4/

Behind paywall ...

The suspensions were due to issues around the interpretation of the World Health Organisation's Covid guidance and food safety management, said MPI deputy director-general policy and trade Julie Collins, in response to Herald inquiries.
Both sites had been recently subject to live video audits by Chinese Customs, she said.

mondograss
10-02-2021, 11:07 AM
Non paywalled version:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124194728/sanford-and-sealord-hit-by-chinese-trade-suspension

Akane
10-02-2021, 12:40 PM
Anyway - I hope all goes well for A2M, but at this stage I won't hold my breath ...

I just want it to go back to the $16-$17 range, minimise my losses and call it an expensive lesson, but TBH it's looking very grim.

RGR367
10-02-2021, 12:52 PM
I just want it to go back to the $16-$17 range, minimise my losses and call it an expensive lesson, but TBH it's looking very grim.

You're not riding on the story. We got this on less than a dollar then and we'll ride this to Kingdom come just like XRO. You got to believe in a dream first :cool:

Gregnz
10-02-2021, 01:17 PM
I just want it to go back to the $16-$17 range, minimise my losses and call it an expensive lesson, but TBH it's looking very grim.

I think you need to ask what has changed since you invested in A2? Did you think it was a rocket ship to the moon as the $16-$17 range would suggest you purchased post Covid after the all time highs of $20+.
My reasons for investing haven't changed, and I stand by my own analysis that Covid19 (a one in one hundred year event) is the reason for the depressed share price. I'm actually still pleasantly surprised that the company is still highly profitable and generating significant revenue throughout this period.
Yes we may have to wait longer to achieve the returns we would like to see, but I don't think many here invested in the hope of making a quick buck.

Akane
10-02-2021, 01:39 PM
I think you need to ask what has changed since you invested in A2? Did you think it was a rocket ship to the moon as the $16-$17 range would suggest you purchased post Covid after the all time highs of $20+.
My reasons for investing haven't changed, and I stand by my own analysis that Covid19 (a one in one hundred year event) is the reason for the depressed share price. I'm actually still pleasantly surprised that the company is still highly profitable and generating significant revenue throughout this period.
Yes we may have to wait longer to achieve the returns we would like to see, but I don't think many here invested in the hope of making a quick buck.

I actually averaged to mid $19's, I always thought this is overpriced, at all the price points since $8 until it just kept going up, I caved and bought in thinking it'll keep going - "Hey I might believe this is overpriced, but the gravy train is at full speed ahead, let's hop on!".

Bbut then I realised I was right, it IS overpriced. It's just milk that can be replicated, the "but muh coca cola" argument is flawed, Coke has the secret formula to make it taste the way it does, whilst A2 milk is just milk... "But it has the A2 protein!" well, get some A2 cows into other countries and you can have your own A2 milk, just like they're doing with Zespri golden kiwifruits :t_up:

Daigou argument is flawed, if the product is that desired, they'll just buy at their local store, or T-mall etc. If you desired a piece of A5 Wagyu steak but you had to go across town to get it - you WILL go across town to get it instead of settling for some Aussie chuck steak, wouldn't you? Obviousy A2 is not as desireable as one would think, therefore even if the Daigou argument is valid (the Daigou channel is hindered), consumers must've been thinking "gee, I can't get A2 from my favourite daigou, oh look that's some Sanlu milk, I'll have that instead, it's the same anyway" - that just reinfornces the idea A2 milk is just milk - nothing special.

I'm sure there'll be both sides of the arguments, if you strongly believe A2 is the future, I wish all bag holders the best - I'm a bag holder as well and just as frustrated as you all are, we're all in this together, for both right and wrong reasons.

Yes, I put money on this and I made a HUGE mistake, I learned a lot - I just want to minimise the cost of this lesson as much as I could, that's all. This is the part where I regret getting on the roller coaster and wish to undo all the things I've done, but the roller coaster has just started and there's no platform in sight for me to safely get off.

Gregnz
10-02-2021, 02:08 PM
I actually averaged to mid $19's, I always thought this is overpriced, at all the price points since $8 until it just kept going up, I caved and bought in thinking it'll keep going - "Hey I might believe this is overpriced, but the gravy train is at full speed ahead, let's hop on!".

Bbut then I realised I was right, it IS overpriced. It's just milk that can be replicated, the "but muh coca cola" argument is flawed, Coke has the secret formula to make it taste the way it does, whilst A2 milk is just milk... "But it has the A2 protein!" well, get some A2 cows into other countries and you can have your own A2 milk, just like they're doing with Zespri golden kiwifruits :t_up:

Daigou argument is flawed, if the product is that desired, they'll just buy at their local store, or T-mall etc. If you desired a piece of A5 Wagyu steak but you had to go across town to get it - you WILL go across town to get it instead of settling for some Aussie chuck steak, wouldn't you? Obviousy A2 is not as desireable as one would think, therefore even if the Daigou argument is valid (the Daigou channel is hindered), consumers must've been thinking "gee, I can't get A2 from my favourite daigou, oh look that's some Sanlu milk, I'll have that instead, it's the same anyway" - that just reinfornces the idea A2 milk is just milk - nothing special.

I'm sure there'll be both sides of the arguments, if you strongly believe A2 is the future, I wish all bag holders the best - I'm a bag holder as well and just as frustrated as you all are, we're all in this together, for both right and wrong reasons.

Yes, I put money on this and I made a HUGE mistake, I learned a lot - I just want to minimise the cost of this lesson as much as I could, that's all. This is the part where I regret getting on the roller coaster and wish to undo all the things I've done, but the roller coaster has just started and there's no platform in sight for me to safely get off.

There are so many things in that argument which are wrong, but your entitled to your own opinion, it seems regardless of anything I was to say, you’ve already made up your mind that investing in A2 was a HUGE mistake.
If you don’t think there is a platform to get off the roller coaster, perhaps just sell out now at a loss?

The Coca Cola argument has been thrashed to death, I’ve even posted about Fiji Water and other water brands which have made their owners millions, and believe it or not, it’s just bottled water.

Having children you’ll realise that it’s not often as simple as just changing formula brands at a whim, regardless of local alternatives.
You might be surprised to know that many local Chinese still don’t trust local brands, so there will always be a market for imported alternatives.

If you can get your hands on it at a local library, take a read of a book called “Devil in the milk”. Once I read that, I realised that the A2 milk journey is only just beginning. There is a reason that many of the major brands are now starting to introduce their own A2 products, further increasing the size of the overall A2 market.

alokdhir
10-02-2021, 02:18 PM
I actually averaged to mid $19's, I always thought this is overpriced, at all the price points since $8 until it just kept going up, I caved and bought in thinking it'll keep going - "Hey I might believe this is overpriced, but the gravy train is at full speed ahead, let's hop on!".

Bbut then I realised I was right, it IS overpriced. It's just milk that can be replicated, the "but muh coca cola" argument is flawed, Coke has the secret formula to make it taste the way it does, whilst A2 milk is just milk... "But it has the A2 protein!" well, get some A2 cows into other countries and you can have your own A2 milk, just like they're doing with Zespri golden kiwifruits :t_up:

Daigou argument is flawed, if the product is that desired, they'll just buy at their local store, or T-mall etc. If you desired a piece of A5 Wagyu steak but you had to go across town to get it - you WILL go across town to get it instead of settling for some Aussie chuck steak, wouldn't you? Obviousy A2 is not as desireable as one would think, therefore even if the Daigou argument is valid (the Daigou channel is hindered), consumers must've been thinking "gee, I can't get A2 from my favourite daigou, oh look that's some Sanlu milk, I'll have that instead, it's the same anyway" - that just reinfornces the idea A2 milk is just milk - nothing special.

I'm sure there'll be both sides of the arguments, if you strongly believe A2 is the future, I wish all bag holders the best - I'm a bag holder as well and just as frustrated as you all are, we're all in this together, for both right and wrong reasons.

Yes, I put money on this and I made a HUGE mistake, I learned a lot - I just want to minimise the cost of this lesson as much as I could, that's all. This is the part where I regret getting on the roller coaster and wish to undo all the things I've done, but the roller coaster has just started and there's no platform in sight for me to safely get off.

I read your thoughts about ATM and the lesson u talking about ....I agree with u that a2 brand got tested for its strength and it didn't turn out to be as strong as we all thought it to be ...Can the company make it stronger ...yes they can over period of time if they are a quality marketing company .

Secondly for SP to move up we need more profits thus higher eps and on continuous basis so market sees some growth story ...that can also be achieved as market for A2 milk is expanding with more awareness and more products .

For me what has mainly changed for ATM is not just Covid exposing their weaknesses of distribution but also weakness of its a2 brand . After all like u say milk is a commodity only and all A2 only milks can be considered to be same to be distinguished by only brand strength . ATM will surely work on this and must be acknowledging this changed scenario in their board meetings

Hopefully being a good marketing company they will try to increase their revenues from naturally expanding pool out of awareness of the benefits of A2 only milk

If they can do that faster then overall growth of this A2 market then it will be considered job well done and SP will again reach high multiples , if they just grow with market or under that then SP will still rise with increased eps but multiples will be much lesser

So it all depends now on the marketing ability of this marketing company IMHO ....next 6-12 months will be important

Rawz
10-02-2021, 02:20 PM
Having children you’ll realise that it’s not often as simple as just changing formula brands at a whim, regardless of local alternatives.
You might be surprised to know that many local Chinese still don’t trust local brands, so there will always be a market for imported alternatives.


That's part of his point re daigou thou. It's not simple changing formula so if your baby is used to A2 milk and the daigou channel is closed then why wouldn't you just buy it from the online channel or mother and baby channel?

bull....
10-02-2021, 02:23 PM
I actually averaged to mid $19's, I always thought this is overpriced, at all the price points since $8 until it just kept going up, I caved and bought in thinking it'll keep going - "Hey I might believe this is overpriced, but the gravy train is at full speed ahead, let's hop on!".

Bbut then I realised I was right, it IS overpriced. It's just milk that can be replicated, the "but muh coca cola" argument is flawed, Coke has the secret formula to make it taste the way it does, whilst A2 milk is just milk... "But it has the A2 protein!" well, get some A2 cows into other countries and you can have your own A2 milk, just like they're doing with Zespri golden kiwifruits :t_up:

Daigou argument is flawed, if the product is that desired, they'll just buy at their local store, or T-mall etc. If you desired a piece of A5 Wagyu steak but you had to go across town to get it - you WILL go across town to get it instead of settling for some Aussie chuck steak, wouldn't you? Obviousy A2 is not as desireable as one would think, therefore even if the Daigou argument is valid (the Daigou channel is hindered), consumers must've been thinking "gee, I can't get A2 from my favourite daigou, oh look that's some Sanlu milk, I'll have that instead, it's the same anyway" - that just reinfornces the idea A2 milk is just milk - nothing special.

I'm sure there'll be both sides of the arguments, if you strongly believe A2 is the future, I wish all bag holders the best - I'm a bag holder as well and just as frustrated as you all are, we're all in this together, for both right and wrong reasons.

Yes, I put money on this and I made a HUGE mistake, I learned a lot - I just want to minimise the cost of this lesson as much as I could, that's all. This is the part where I regret getting on the roller coaster and wish to undo all the things I've done, but the roller coaster has just started and there's no platform in sight for me to safely get off.

try not to worry its only a loss when you sell , everyone makes mistakes

Gregnz
10-02-2021, 02:27 PM
That's part of his point re daigou thou. It's not simple changing formula so if your baby is used to A2 milk and the daigou channel is closed then why wouldn't you just buy it from the online channel or mother and baby channel?

I must have mis interpreted what he was saying about Daigou. After all the product has been available in over 20,000 stores in China, yet mothers still chose to purchase via Daigou.
That’s why we have seen a 40% increase in sales from the store network in China, because they are now buying it locally.
Daigou will just be the cream on top , if and when it eventually returns.

Biscuit
10-02-2021, 02:29 PM
...... I just want to minimise the cost of this lesson as much as I could......

Losing money always hurts. The more you lose, the more it hurts and the pain of losing money is a much stronger emotion than the pleasure of winning money. Emotion makes for bad investment decisions. It's not advice but one strategy to minimise loss would be to take money off the table in steps. Some now, some in a few months or at a particular level. Plans are one way to avoid making decisions based on emotion.

TLM54
10-02-2021, 02:43 PM
I read your thoughts about ATM and the lesson u talking about ....I agree with u that a2 brand got tested for its strength and it didn't turn out to be as strong as we all thought it to be ...Can the company make it stronger ...yes they can over period of time if they are a quality marketing company .

Secondly for SP to move up we need more profits thus higher eps and on continuous basis so market sees some growth story ...that can also be achieved as market for A2 milk is expanding with more awareness and more products .

For me what has mainly changed for ATM is not just Covid exposing their weaknesses of distribution but also weakness of its a2 brand . After all like u say milk is a commodity only and all A2 only milks can be considered to be same to be distinguished by only brand strength . ATM will surely work on this and must be acknowledging this changed scenario in their board meetings

Hopefully being a good marketing company they will try to increase their revenues from naturally expanding pool out of awareness of the benefits of A2 only milk

If they can do that faster then overall growth of this A2 market then it will be considered job well done and SP will again reach high multiples , if they just grow with market or under that then SP will still rise with increased eps but multiples will be much lesser

So it all depends now on the marketing ability of this marketing company IMHO ....next 6-12 months will be important

Your last point doesn't make any sense and Akane actually provided the counter to this argument: If kids were so dependent on A2 and could not possibly change brands, then why has sales completely tanked? There are alternative channels other than daigou, so why has there been no uptick there? Last guidance, the director even advised that CBEC has under performed.

Like I've said before, the daigous have been deteriorating because class of 2020 students and 12month visa visitors have been leaving AUS/NZ towards the end of the year and no new student and visitors are coming in to replace them. These are the people who have the connections to the mainland china consumers. With tertiary enrollments wrapped up and uni about to start, I think we can be certain students are not coming back this semester. So ask yourself, what is the state of the daigous for the rest of the financial year?

some people have also previously pointed out that other brands have rolled out A2 protein IF as well, the milk from the various brands will be coming from the same share milkers as A2, so Akane is right in pointing out that there isnt anything inherently special about the product itself compared to it's competitors.

alokdhir
10-02-2021, 02:46 PM
Your last point doesn't make any sense and Akane actually provided the counter to this argument: If kids were so dependent on A2 and could not possibly change brands, then why has sales completely tanked? There are alternative channels other than daigou, so why has there been no uptick there? Last guidance, the director even advised that CBEC has under performed.

Like I've said before, the daigous have been deteriorating because class of 2020 students and 12month visa visitors have been leaving AUS/NZ towards the end of the year and no new student and visitors are coming in to replace them. These are the people who have the connections to the mainland china consumers. With tertiary enrollments wrapped up and uni about to start, I think we can be certain students are not coming back this semester. So ask yourself, what is the state of the daigous for the rest of the financial year?

some people have also previously pointed out that other brands have rolled out A2 protein IF as well, the milk from the various brands will be coming from the same share milkers as A2, so Akane is right in pointing out that there isnt anything inherently special about the product itself compared to it's competitors.

Looks like u quoted the wrong post ...

TLM54
10-02-2021, 02:50 PM
Looks like u quoted the wrong post ...

yea, my bad :)

Akane
10-02-2021, 02:54 PM
That's part of his point re daigou thou. It's not simple changing formula so if your baby is used to A2 milk and the daigou channel is closed then why wouldn't you just buy it from the online channel or mother and baby channel?

Thanks Rawz, sorry I couldn't worded it better - I'm a parent myself, I understand some infants/babies cannot just change milk formulas with a snap of your finger. If that is true, why not just buy from a retail store - which means the revenue should equal out? At the end of the day a sale is a sale in A2's eyes, it doesn't matter if it's through the Daigou channel or retail channel.

Sorry if I came across as brash - just very frustrated at myself for jumping into this without doing my own DD and listen to my own gut.
I've learned that I would rather miss the train, than jump on the wrong train and be stuck - FOMO is one hell of a drug :D

Gregnz
10-02-2021, 03:02 PM
Thanks Rawz, sorry I couldn't worded it better - I'm a parent myself, I understand some infants/babies cannot just change milk formulas with a snap of your finger. If that is true, why not just buy from a retail store - which means the revenue should equal out? At the end of the day a sale is a sale in A2's eyes, it doesn't matter if it's through the Daigou channel or retail channel.

Sorry if I came across as brash - just very frustrated at myself for jumping into this without doing my own DD and listen to my own gut.
I've learned that I would rather miss the train, than jump on the wrong train and be stuck - FOMO is one hell of a drug :D

Sales haven’t evened out because of pantry stocking. Sales were artificially high during the early stages of Covid, and people over bought the product (the same could be said that the share price should never have got to prior peaks based on this peak in demand). In many cases these have a shelf life of up to 2 years. Pantry de stocking could still be happening.
I personally know people in China who purchased sufficient A2 tins early last year that they still haven’t used up their supply. I’m not sure how common this is.

alokdhir
10-02-2021, 03:05 PM
Thanks Rawz, sorry I couldn't worded it better - I'm a parent myself, I understand some infants/babies cannot just change milk formulas with a snap of your finger. If that is true, why not just buy from a retail store - which means the revenue should equal out? At the end of the day a sale is a sale in A2's eyes, it doesn't matter if it's through the Daigou channel or retail channel.

Sorry if I came across as brash - just very frustrated at myself for jumping into this without doing my own DD and listen to my own gut.
I've learned that I would rather miss the train, than jump on the wrong train and be stuck - FOMO is one hell of a drug :D

Dont be too harsh on yourself ...All here have made many mistakes ...some have the courage to admit ...many dont ...

I have learnt ...." Sell and regret is better then not sell and regret " Conversely " Dont buy and regret is better then Buy and regret " Works well if u have doubt trying to sell some stock or buy some stock .

I still think U can minimise your losses here by being patient now ...IMHO

Akane
10-02-2021, 03:23 PM
Dont be too harsh on yourself ...All here have made many mistakes ...some have the courage to admit ...many dont ...

I have learnt ...." Sell and regret is better then not sell and regret " Conversely " Dont buy and regret is better then Buy and regret " Works well if u have doubt trying to sell some stock or buy some stock .

I still think U can minimise your losses here by being patient now ...IMHO

Thanks for the encouragement.

I guess it's a bit like flying a plane, better to be on the ground and wishing you're up there, than up there wishing you're down on the ground.

Gregnz
10-02-2021, 03:24 PM
Thanks for the encouragement.

I guess it's a bit like flying a plane, better to be on the ground and wishing you're up there, than up there wishing you're down on the ground.

Only problem is being left on the ground when the plane takes off. :t_up:

Rawz
10-02-2021, 03:33 PM
Dont be too harsh on yourself ...All here have made many mistakes ...some have the courage to admit ...many dont ...

I have learnt ...." Sell and regret is better then not sell and regret " Conversely " Dont buy and regret is better then Buy and regret " Works well if u have doubt trying to sell some stock or buy some stock .

I still think U can minimise your losses here by being patient now ...IMHO

I also have no worries cutting a loss. Did so on ATM late last and also SAN mid last year once i noticed the downtrend. Redeployed funds which are performing much better.

One thing I did early this year is change my trusty old excel spreadsheet so that the main page has all my holdings, current price, some ratios and portfolio weighting. It excludes the gain or loss. That way I am just looking at the investment as it stands in that point in time. I've found I have been able to buy and sell freely without any emotion doing this.

Gregnz
10-02-2021, 03:36 PM
I also have no worries cutting a loss. Did so on ATM late last and also SAN mid last year once i noticed the downtrend. Redeployed funds which are performing much better.

One thing I did early this year is change my trusty old excel spreadsheet so that the main page has all my holdings, current price, some ratios and portfolio weighting. It excludes the gain or loss. That way I am just looking at the investment as it stands in that point in time. I've found I have been able to buy and sell freely without any emotion doing this.

Id like to buy and sell more often, but the tax bill from IRD is the main factor putting me off. Everything I have bought, I have done with the intention of holding for 5+ years. I consider myself an investor and definitely not a trader.

Leftfield
10-02-2021, 03:56 PM
Thanks for the encouragement.

I guess it's a bit like flying a plane, better to be on the ground and wishing you're up there, than up there wishing you're down on the ground.

All share investment has some risk.

At the moment we are making risk assessments in a vacuum based on incomplete info until the next scheduled ATM update due 25 Feb.

Always best to make your decisions based on firm fact than in a vacuum where rumours and speculation abound.

JMHO.

Habits
10-02-2021, 05:07 PM
Be careful with that. The listed FSF that you can buy into is the upstream processing part of the company. A higher milk price might be good for farmers. But it is bad for FSF because they have to pay for their milk to process at 'market rates'. As a processor, you do not want your input costs to go up!

SNOOPY

Gee the only thing that increases with ATM is the number of pages on this thread... the SP seems to be headed for a downside breakout below $10.90 eh. Am still keeping the faith until the forthcoming announcement then might do the switcheroo into FSF

BlackPeter
10-02-2021, 05:11 PM
Only problem is being left on the ground when the plane takes off. :t_up:

It depends ... I can imagine a number of scenarios where it would be better to be left on the ground ...

Not saying that ATM is such a scenario, but sometimes it feels that some of the posters here are too much emotionally involved. Bad investment strategy. ATM is just one stock out of many which may make us money or which may lose us money. Plenty other stocks with the same properties around as well.

Fear to miss a plane is a pure emotional problem, If you think about it - next day there will be another plane ... Emotion is the enemy of reason, and it is reason one needs to make good investment decisions.

Louisphan
10-02-2021, 05:12 PM
Hottest thread, 999 page now. Hope page 1000 will start a new uptrend for ATM.

Gregnz
10-02-2021, 05:16 PM
It depends ... I can imagine a number of scenarios where it would be better to be left on the ground ...

Not saying that ATM is such a scenario, but sometimes it feels that some of the posters here are too much emotionally involved. Bad investment strategy. ATM is just one stock out of many which may make us money or which may lose us money. Plenty other stocks with the same properties around as well.

Fear to miss a plane is a pure emotional problem, If you think about it - next day there will be another plane ... Emotion is the enemy of reason, and it is reason one needs to make good investment decisions.

I'm probably somewhat emotionally involved, although have a very healthy diversified portfolio. My emotional involvement comes from the fact I actually believe in the A2 product, I've read all of the books and articles about it, so I consider it more than just an investment. I believe its also been very beneficial for my own health, and I consume the product. I personally don't just like to invest in companies because I think they can make me money, I prefer to invest in what I think is right also.

BlackPeter
10-02-2021, 05:37 PM
I'm probably somewhat emotionally involved, although have a very healthy diversified portfolio. My emotional involvement comes from the fact I actually believe in the A2 product, I've read all of the books and articles about it, so I consider it more than just an investment. I believe its also been very beneficial for my own health, and I consume the product. I personally don't just like to invest in companies because I think they can make me money, I prefer to invest in what I think is right also.

Diversification is good, nearly as good as A2 milk. As far as the latter is concerned I agree that it does make a difference for some people. However - it does not make any difference for them whether they get their A2 milk from the A2 milk company or from any other source of A2 milk.

We happen to drink A2 milk for decades supplied by the friendly beast outside of our door (our house cow). Used to be a Jersey Cross, now it is a Dexter / Jersey. No need to attach myself emotionally to the A2 company or any other milk supplier (though - I like our cow :p - she is a nice girl with character ...):

I only buy shares if I think that they are undervalued, and that, at the moment, I am not so sure about with ATM.

Gregnz
10-02-2021, 05:47 PM
Diversification is good, nearly as good as A2 milk. As far as the latter is concerned I agree that it does make a difference for some people. However - it does not make any difference for them whether they get their A2 milk from the A2 milk company or from any other source of A2 milk.

We happen to drink A2 milk for decades supplied by the friendly beast outside of our door (our house cow). Used to be a Jersey Cross, now it is a Dexter / Jersey. No need to attach myself emotionally to the A2 company or any other milk supplier (though - I like our cow :p - she is a nice girl with character ...):

I only buy shares if I think that they are undervalued, and that, at the moment, I am not so sure about with ATM.

As far as an investment in A2 milk on the Nzx, there are a limited range of options. Are there other NZ publicly listed companies also producing an A2 product? Fonterra produce it on behalf of the A2 Milk Co in the anchor bottles, but I'm not aware of other companies publicly listed?

Habits
11-02-2021, 04:56 AM
We happen to drink A2 milk for decades supplied by the friendly beast outside of our door (our house cow). Used to be a Jersey Cross, now it is a Dexter / Jersey

Thats very very convenient,,, and handy.

I am going to give the a2 product a solid go and see how much differnce it makes. I suspect it works better for either children or seniors

kiora
11-02-2021, 07:45 AM
Or you could get a jersey cow and have it out your front door
https://florencegriswoldmuseum.org/collections/online/fox-chase/fox-chase-the-cow/

GR8DAY
11-02-2021, 08:01 AM
Quote BLACK PETER...."I only buy shares if I think that they are undervalued, and that, at the moment, I am not so sure about with ATM."

(off topic)
BP.... Do you by any chance have a list of those under valued cos? Lol

Balance
11-02-2021, 08:20 AM
Thats very very convenient,,, and handy.

I am going to give the a2 product a solid go and see how much differnce it makes. I suspect it works better for either children or seniors

I scratch my head in wonderment that at this stage of the game, we are still reading about the merits of A2 milk vs conventional milk?

The A2 milk advantage was debated years ago and it became clear that while many harbour doubts (including Fonterra), the anecdotal evidence from Asian consumers (60% are lactose intolerant etc etc) was so convincing that A2 milk took off amongst the Asians, especially China - forming the basis for the rise and rise of ATM.

Other competitors have now joined the fray and the debate & discussion has shifted to impact of the competition, the double downgrades, ATM's strategic blunder in getting rid of Jayne (with hindsight) and where to from here.

But seems like we are back at square 1 - A2 vs A1 milk!

Balance
11-02-2021, 08:52 AM
Simplistic summary of where A2M is at :

Bull case for A2M

https://www.raskmedia.com.au/2021/02/09/the-bull-case-for-a2-milk-company-ltd-asxa2m-shares/

"Given international travel will resume, the positive growth of MBS stores, and increasing brand awareness, I believe the market has overreacted to a2 Milk’s recent earnings downgrade."

Bear case (but actually, a bull case in disguise)

https://www.raskmedia.com.au/2021/02/10/the-bear-case-for-the-a2-milk-asxa2m-share-price/

"While I’m keeping an eye out for any of the aforementioned bear scenarios playing out, I think a lot of the downside is already priced into the a2 Milk share price.

As a result, I think today is a good entry point for investors."

Balance
11-02-2021, 08:56 AM
https://www.shortman.com.au/stock?q=A2M

Meanwhile, shorters continue to cover (buy shares) but sp is slipping.

Interesting as it means that long termers are selling to shorters?

BlackPeter
11-02-2021, 09:18 AM
As far as an investment in A2 milk on the Nzx, there are a limited range of options. Are there other NZ publicly listed companies also producing an A2 product? Fonterra produce it on behalf of the A2 Milk Co in the anchor bottles, but I'm not aware of other companies publicly listed?

We used to sell occasionally a calf :p; But admittedly - while they all grew into A2 milk producing cows, none of them came with a NZX listing. So - if you insist on investing into A2 milk on the NZX, than I recon you mentioned all the competitors.

BlackPeter
11-02-2021, 09:24 AM
Quote BLACK PETER...."I only buy shares if I think that they are undervalued, and that, at the moment, I am not so sure about with ATM."

(off topic)
BP.... Do you by any chance have a list of those under valued cos? Lol

Of course - I look at this list nearly every day - it is my portfolio :p ; If you follow this (and the other) forum, you will know most of them anyway :):

BTW - I high lighted in your quote what I said (which is slightly different to what you asked for).

GR8DAY
11-02-2021, 09:33 AM
....ah cheers BP. Seems like we hold similar portfolios! 🤕

HKG2301
11-02-2021, 11:23 AM
I actually averaged to mid $19's, I always thought this is overpriced, at all the price points since $8 until it just kept going up, I caved and bought in thinking it'll keep going - "Hey I might believe this is overpriced, but the gravy train is at full speed ahead, let's hop on!".

I'm sure there'll be both sides of the arguments, if you strongly believe A2 is the future, I wish all bag holders the best - I'm a bag holder as well and just as frustrated as you all are, we're all in this together, for both right and wrong reasons.

Yes, I put money on this and I made a HUGE mistake, I learned a lot - I just want to minimise the cost of this lesson as much as I could, that's all. This is the part where I regret getting on the roller coaster and wish to undo all the things I've done, but the roller coaster has just started and there's no platform in sight for me to safely get off.


Apologies if someone already replied to this point, I'm just catching up on the thread. However, somebody needs to point out a basic flaw in your investment strategy, or an alternative at least...

You don't need to 'make your money back' on ATM. Going forward, you should consider ALL shares (indeed all investments) and constantly compare and rank them for best possible return.

If you don't expect a good bounce of the SP in ATM (it sounds like you don't) then sell now and invest in a share in which you are confident. Swings and roundabouts. Paper losses are irrelevant, unless considered for CGT reasons. At any given time, if your portfolio doesn't reflect your best guess for future gains, then you need to rebalance.

Say you own ATM at a loss, and expect it to be rangebound for the next few months (I don't), whilst thinking the commercial property sector is still lagging. Sell ATM, buy KPG or APL. Easy as.

As the saying goes, never get emotionally involved in a share, either on the way up, or the way down!


[Disc: My ATM position is presently under water, but I'm holding for the longer term and hoping for a bounce on news later this month.]

HKG2301
11-02-2021, 11:29 AM
Id like to buy and sell more often, but the tax bill from IRD is the main factor putting me off. Everything I have bought, I have done with the intention of holding for 5+ years. I consider myself an investor and definitely not a trader.

Even investors have to trade! :)

Dotbond
11-02-2021, 01:24 PM
Yep I sold my ATM holding at $13,000 loss. Made back on OCA and PEB

bull....
11-02-2021, 01:55 PM
china's feihe launches a2 milk variant and ever wonder why bubs isnt doing well , why feihe just launching goats milk one as well

Balance
11-02-2021, 02:06 PM
china's feihe launches a2 milk variant and ever wonder why bubs isnt doing well , why feihe just launching goats milk one as well

https://www.nutraingredients-asia.com/Article/2021/01/18/China-s-infant-formula-giant-Feihe-to-expand-into-FSMPs-after-goat-milk-powder-patent-granted

Interesting development

HKG2301
11-02-2021, 02:07 PM
This one from Yahoo Finance from 19 Jan. I'll leave the smarter minds amongst us to pick it to pieces...

A2 Milk Company's (NZSE:ATM) Intrinsic Value Is Potentially 95% Above Its Share Pricehttps://finance.yahoo.com/news/a2-milk-company-limiteds-nzse-213610097.html

Balance
11-02-2021, 02:11 PM
This one from Yahoo Finance from 19 Jan. I'll leave the smarter minds amongst us to pick it to pieces...

A2 Milk Company's (NZSE:ATM) Intrinsic Value Is Potentially 95% Above Its Share Pricehttps://finance.yahoo.com/news/a2-milk-company-limiteds-nzse-213610097.html

Simply Wall St article. Enough said.

bull....
11-02-2021, 02:14 PM
https://www.nutraingredients-asia.com/Article/2021/01/18/China-s-infant-formula-giant-Feihe-to-expand-into-FSMPs-after-goat-milk-powder-patent-granted

Interesting development

yep feihe will become a more direct competitor to a2 now in the a2 space and as the biggest infant formula player in china it dont lack muscle

Balance
11-02-2021, 02:56 PM
yep feihe will become a more direct competitor to a2 now in the a2 space and as the biggest infant formula player in china it dont lack muscle

Well, says to me that the results announcement on 25 Feb is going to be a rather muted affair by the new CEO as he would want to have a really good handle on things (especially pertaining to competition issues) before providing an outlook comment.

If anything, one would expect him to play it safe and cautiously as he is going to own any outlook comments he makes in his first outing as CEO.

Gregnz
11-02-2021, 03:10 PM
I’d be curious to know opinions from others, as to why shorters are running for the hills? Surely if they expect a mediocre HY and potentially revised FY guidance, wouldn’t it make sense to keep short positions open, or at least open new positions?

bull....
11-02-2021, 03:16 PM
I’d be curious to know opinions from others, as to why shorters are running for the hills? Surely if they expect a mediocre HY and potentially revised FY guidance, wouldn’t it make sense to keep short positions open, or at least open new positions?

shorters are not running for the hills , if your got long term sellers or what ever , shorters can buy back into the volume with out the price racing upside due to there buying.

lock in some profits as maybe they think the downside is not as great now? doesnt mean the upside is better

Gregnz
11-02-2021, 03:18 PM
shorters are not running for the hills , if your got long term sellers or what ever , shorters can buy back into the volume with out the price racing upside due to there buying.

Millions of them have closed positions, from almost 8% to now just above 6%? Or am I reading it wrong. That to me is running for the hills?

bull....
11-02-2021, 03:20 PM
Millions of them have closed positions, from almost 8% to now just above 6%? Or am I reading it wrong. That to me is running for the hills?

you didnt understand they might be locking in profits without pushing the price up , just cause the short interest is falling means nothing except about risk/reward for the a2 proposition which was a trade from an overvalued company fundamentals. why would you maintain a massive short position in a company idf its not going bust. its a trade only short position

Gregnz
11-02-2021, 03:22 PM
you didnt understand they might be locking in profits without pushing the price up , just cause the short interest is falling means nothing except about risk/reward for the a2 proposition

that’s a very odd explanation. Yes I understand they are locking in profits, but that makes absolutely no sense if they are convinced there is further downside. Based on comments here about competition etc, surely downside is a given.

Based on some of the comments on HC recently, and here, you could be mistaken for thinking the company is going bust, as though they have never dealt with competition before. Just seems the sentiment from shorters doesn’t match their actions.

Balance
11-02-2021, 03:31 PM
that’s a very odd explanation. Yes I understand they are locking in profits, but that makes absolutely no sense if they are convinced there is further downside. Based on comments here about competition etc, surely downside is a given.

Based on some of the comments on HC recently, and here, you could be mistaken for thinking the company is going bust, as though they have never dealt with competition before. Just seems the sentiment from shorters doesn’t match their actions.

Given the other comments here, surely upside is a given?

Market is a market - buyers and sellers, and shorters by definition are traders.

Akane
11-02-2021, 03:33 PM
Apologies if someone already replied to this point, I'm just catching up on the thread. However, somebody needs to point out a basic flaw in your investment strategy, or an alternative at least...

You don't need to 'make your money back' on ATM. Going forward, you should consider ALL shares (indeed all investments) and constantly compare and rank them for best possible return.

If you don't expect a good bounce of the SP in ATM (it sounds like you don't) then sell now and invest in a share in which you are confident. Swings and roundabouts. Paper losses are irrelevant, unless considered for CGT reasons. At any given time, if your portfolio doesn't reflect your best guess for future gains, then you need to rebalance.

Say you own ATM at a loss, and expect it to be rangebound for the next few months (I don't), whilst thinking the commercial property sector is still lagging. Sell ATM, buy KPG or APL. Easy as.

As the saying goes, never get emotionally involved in a share, either on the way up, or the way down!


[Disc: My ATM position is presently under water, but I'm holding for the longer term and hoping for a bounce on news later this month.]

You're not wrong, I dived head in first into ATM with the wrong mindset.
Luckily ATM is only one of my tranches, although it's the biggest one by a lot. It feels like ATM has singlehandedly undone all the work on the other shares, 3 steps forward, 3 steps back.
Going forward, I'm just waiting for a bit of a bounce - every little bit helps, then I'll exit and reinvest in other shares.

Thanks for your input, I'll take it onboard.