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duncan macgregor
23-09-2005, 01:04 PM
FOR THOSE WITH AN INTEREST THE FIGURES FROM THE JUNE 2005 BUILDING INDUSTRY GUIDE. Free standing single residential guide

STANDARD HOUSE EXECUTIVE HOUSE ARCHITEC DESIGN
AUCKLAND $1281 m2 $1800 $2500 m2

wellington $1186 m2 $1660 m2 $2320 m2

restof nthisland $1155 m2 $1520 m2 $2250 m2

all sth island $1130 m2 $$1600 m2 $2200 m2

The compliance costs are crippling the industry. macdunk

Get Real
23-09-2005, 03:07 PM
Does anyone know where you can get the equivalent figures for commercial construction (especially retail and office)?

duncan macgregor
23-09-2005, 07:37 PM
GET REAL, The variation in costs is to wide to be of any use. Apples with apples commercial has to many widely different types of buildings to come up with meaningfull figures. macdunk

rmbbrave
24-09-2005, 01:54 AM
Are you sure about these prices Duncan?

On Trade me a 105m2 Lockwood house goes for $61,500

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Property/Houses-for-sale/auction-35830503.htm?key=39901025

The price you give, about $1200 per m2, suggests this house should be 1200x105= $126000.

duncan macgregor
24-09-2005, 06:34 AM
RMBBRAVE, That is the average price official figures for june. That is the average you can still build much cheaper or find a relocateable or whatever. MACDUNK

R2
24-09-2005, 11:10 AM
McDunk, I was pleasantly surprised by the figures you posted, having been advised by an architect I briefed recently to allow $2500-$3500 + gst - which was around a grand more than the range I was expecting.

Are you able to shed any light on compliance related costs as a portion of the Msq rate and, from your experience, advise how that proportion has changed over recent times or likely to increase? I am aware of compliance changes which affected costs in April this year - are there more?

I am interested to understand the effect on the Msq rate of the current labor shortage compared to the percentages of material cost to those of other fees including compliance related components.

duncan macgregor
24-09-2005, 11:55 AM
R2, subdivision compliance costs building compliance costs vary to such an extent, that average figures are worthless. The compliance costs have doubled even trebled of late with building regulations costs being a much higher percentage of total value than before. macdunk

ari
25-09-2005, 04:57 PM
duncan...where did yours figs come from. I have tracked the following site http://www.building.dbh.govt.nz/e/publish/industry/estimated_building_costs.shtml

My costs per m2 come out very close to the figs when using the quick calculator on site.

Bling_Bling
28-09-2005, 06:22 AM
quote:Originally posted by R2

McDunk, I was pleasantly surprised by the figures you posted, having been advised by an architect I briefed recently to allow $2500-$3500 + gst - which was around a grand more than the range I was expecting.



Are you building in the Remuera/Orakei area?

It all depends what kind of house, area and material use.

R2
02-10-2005, 04:10 PM
Not Auckland but in Wellington, Double B.

Was interested in the fact the Arch. can't start until early 06 and the builder I want to use can't start until second half 06.

So, I was interested in the Sqm rate - out of say, $2500/m, what proportion of the increase is due to compliance costs (fixed) and what proportion due to labour and perhaps material shortage related premiums (variable)?

Might just delay another year as I don't need to occupy and can wait as if that premium was, say, 10% on $2.5k/m,for example - the delay + saving would give me around $350k over 30 years.

Thought someone might know...

dinosaur
04-10-2005, 03:13 PM
R2

I estimate the new Building Act will have added 25% (From July 04)to residential building costs. The official stats are historic, so don't really reflect 'todays' costs.

The increase is made up in several ways.
Architects/Designers are taking twice as long to produce the plans as Councils reqiure extra details, right down to bathroom waterprooofing details. I'm surpised your guy can start as early as next year. The problem being, we don't know what they will ask for next, as it depends on who in the council checks the plans. And thats for a simple brick and tiled house.

This is continued out on the building site. It's taking builders and subcontractors longer to get Code Compliance. I know of one tiler who submitted a producer statements 4 times before the council would accept it, but only after my help. I can quarantee he will be charging more from now on to cover compliance costs, either that or go broke.

Actual example. House company gave an estimate 5 weeks ago to a developer of approx $163,000 to build one of their standard house plans (143m sq), but thought they could probably trim that price. The actual quote came in this week at $189,900. Reality bites!

Thats over a 16% increase. I think they have realised that that not only are the plans costing more, but so to are Building Consents fees, labour costs, materials etc etc. Manufactures having to upgrade their technical informnation, which often involves expensive retesting and product recertification. I can't see it settling down for a few years yet. The next price spike will be caused building industry licensing, starting 2007.

R2
06-10-2005, 01:55 AM
Dinosaur, was out of town for a couple of days so just read your post now. Thanks for taking the time to set out the facts so well,I appreciate it.

The message I'm taking from your post is; if you are building, best get it done before the 2007 changes.

dinosaur
06-10-2005, 08:58 AM
quote:Originally posted by R2

The message I'm taking from your post is; if you are building, best get it done before the 2007 changes.


Yes, the sooner you start, the cheaper it will be. There will be more costs flowing through before 2007. Architects/Designers, Engineers are the first to experience the changes but as contractors experience the changes, they too will be increasing their charges again.IMHO.
It's just not the 'leaky homes'saga. That was only the trigger which caused extensive audits of Council systems and processes. Councils now have complex audits on their consent processes, then audits on the auditors.

Not that I'm saying these changes were not necessary, although they seem to have gone a bit too far the other way now.

Councils are now taking less responsibility, requiring chartered engineers to oversee most things that are engineer designed, ie., footings now in expansive clay. This is on top of council inspections. Quite costly. Good luck.

BTW:I looked at a house this week that was built 19 years ago. I don't know how the council could have signed it off, even back then. eg.,The stormwater drains had never been put in, yet they were on the plans. Although none of the recent changes implemented will prevent the long term water damage I saw to the particle board flooring from a leaky wing back connection in the wall to the supertub. In fact they might make it worse by trapping that water behind the waterproof membrane, making it even harder to detect early. (Most household Insurance doesn't cover slow long term water leak damage)

duncan macgregor
06-10-2005, 06:53 PM
DINOSAUR, I could not agree more the building game is now a complete shambles. The last twenty years a complete nightmare with new products and rule changes at a moments notice. The last rule change that i was involved in i said to the inspector [but thats what the plan shows], when were the rules changed?. I was told the rules changed the previous week, and i should have known. My next silly question was where was it broadcast?. He said it was on their bloody web site to which i replied silly me, i should have known. The only thing i did wrong was do it to plan before your warning about changing the rules. Who pays for all this crap?. I am now out of this stupid building game, I watched it disintregate into the modern day shambles but the only thing that really concerns me is the people making the rules are completely clueless. macdunk

JBmurc
13-11-2005, 09:01 PM
also getting out of the building game my costs in queenstown have gone from $1200 in 02 to $1800sqm(very cheap) in 05(same design,materials etc), this doesn't inclued my own costs as project manager.
A mate works for one of the top building firms in Qutown they recently finished a 180sqm 2brm 2 bath art-deco custom design was built on hillside main cost was the engineer costs etc. floor ceiling windows ,other than that basic high quatity fit-out granite bench top.etc it cost the guy a little over $1million plus section cost of round the 250,000 mark ,honestly the house on the market would only sell for round 700,000 because of size and location :( he was rich so didn,t care ;)my mates buildig firm are flat out 3500-5000sqm on average

not so much the cost of building which I,m sick of its more so the stress ,I do know that if I built the same house again starting tomorrow it would cost at least $200-300per sqm more.

duncan macgregor
11-02-2007, 02:24 PM
quote:Originally posted by duncan macgregor

FOR THOSE WITH AN INTEREST THE FIGURES FROM THE JUNE 2005 BUILDING INDUSTRY GUIDE. Free standing single residential guide

STANDARD HOUSE EXECUTIVE HOUSE ARCHITEC DESIGN
AUCKLAND $1281 m2 $1800 $2500 m2

wellington $1186 m2 $1660 m2 $2320 m2

restof nthisland $1155 m2 $1520 m2 $2250 m2

all sth island $1130 m2 $$1600 m2 $2200 m2

The compliance costs are crippling the industry. macdunk
I thought that i might bring up an old post of mine from over a year ago. I dont have the latest figures only know that building compliance costs have increased dramatically since then. I think material is up by about 6pc on top of that in my area. MACDUNK

tricha
13-02-2007, 01:02 PM
Anyone know the new average costs, be nice to know what effect inflation is having [?][?][?][?][?]

duncan macgregor
13-02-2007, 01:23 PM
quote:Originally posted by tricha

Anyone know the new average costs, be nice to know what effect inflation is having [?][?][?][?][?]
I dont have the figures that are revelant other than the average price of a house went up by 9pc in the last 12 months and 17 pc the year before. macdunk

whiteheron
13-02-2007, 02:18 PM
Macdunk

You seem to be very knowlegable on building / property matters
Here is a related question

My wife and I have had for 33 years a large two storied house near the beach down the lower part of the North Island
We brought up our family here and have done considerable improvements in the last 3 or so years --- new kitchen and bathroom,shower,toilet area etc
The house is well maintained, the section has mature trees and the location is very good

I am very reluctant to move but my wife has had a knee replacement and would like to re locate not too far away in a modern single storied house

So much for the background info, now for the question

On balance, do you consider that we would be better off buying a section and building or searching for an appropriate existing property
I tend to favour the latter as sections are a horrendous price and I think that the package of a well built developed property may be the way to go
Selling and buying on the same market also makes sence I think

Duncan, your comments will be greatly appreciated
Thanks so much
And profitable investing

duncan macgregor
13-02-2007, 02:51 PM
WHITE HERON, If you are a builder with practical knowledge the do it all yourself is the way to go. If you are not, then in my opinion [others might not agree], You buy what you can see. If you are near the beach open to salt spray, and wind conditions, do yourself a favour. Brick veneer or similar, with a concrete tile roof. The brick veneer is your insurance policy against a leaky home.
The exterior wall will be allowed to breath, and wont suck water up hill. The concrete tile roof, wont rust in the harsh beach conditions. First priority is practical, second priority is you like it. Avoid at any price to forget the practical, because you like it, that is the main reason we have leaky homes. I feel sure you will make all the right decisions good luck with your move. macdunk

Steve
14-02-2007, 06:29 AM
Resurrect the thread and the answer appears in the papers!

City house costs 85pc above Australia (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10423900)
The cost of building a house in the Auckland region was between $1388 and $1601 a square metre.

R2
14-02-2007, 08:41 AM
I am in process of getting ready to build close to the sea now, although a concerned neighbour is making me an offer which I may accept if it is good enough and due to the quotes I have.

Total cost including some earthworks and retaining is coming in around $3250+ GST per sqm.if you want to look at it that way, total development cost $875k including professional fees. This also ties up with a developer up the road that I spoke to who recommended budgeting for $3500 + GST to be on the safe side.

Building close to the sea now requires that stainless hardware is used and this type of requirement really escalates the cost over building in other areas. Also I guess choosing a flat section would reduce costs.

duncan macgregor
14-02-2007, 02:30 PM
quote:Originally posted by R2

I am in process of getting ready to build close to the sea now, although a concerned neighbour is making me an offer which I may accept if it is good enough and due to the quotes I have.

Total cost including some earthworks and retaining is coming in around $3250+ GST per sqm.if you want to look at it that way, total development cost $875k including professional fees. This also ties up with a developer up the road that I spoke to who recommended budgeting for $3500 + GST to be on the safe side.

Building close to the sea now requires that stainless hardware is used and this type of requirement really escalates the cost over building in other areas. Also I guess choosing a flat section would reduce costs.
You are quit wrong if you think stainless is only required in harsh beach building conditions. NZ has the most expensive and ridiculous building regulations in the whole wide world. Stainless is required everywhere. In the old days before the loopies took over we had concrete piles with galvanised wire holding the sub floor framing down with no problems ever to my knowledge. then we move into tana piles 125x125 timber h5 ground retention with galvanised bolts in the braces, and galvanised brackets holding the bearer and joists. I have never encountered a problem with that ever. Then we have stainless steel bolts in everything,plus stainless steel brackets, plus stainless steel bolts in handrails.
The Australian house is better than its NZ counterpart, it seems that they have people making the rules that actually understand building.
Exterior walls must be allowed to breathe yet we are forced to fill them up with batts. I am so pleased that i am out of it, otherwise i would be off. macdunk

Crypto Crude
14-02-2007, 02:57 PM
Article
Building costs spark inquiry

The Commerce commission has been asked to investigate the high cost of building materials...
Auckland city council figures show there has been a 65% rise in the cost of building a house since 1999....
The chair of the council's economic development and sustainable business development committee says he has been told its cheaper to import and construct kitset homes from Brisbane than build from scratch in NZ
source-Newstalk ZB
[8D]
.^sc

tricha
14-02-2007, 11:21 PM
Thanks for that Steve - "The cost of building a house in the Auckland region was between $1388 and $1601 a square metre.

A small house is defined as 145sq m and a large house as 202sq m."

Gives me an idea on what a new house is worth, buy or build.

minimoke
15-02-2007, 11:15 AM
quote:Originally posted by tricha

Anyone know the new average costs, be nice to know what effect inflation is having [?][?][?][?][?]

Seven years ago I built for $1,200 SQM with few conversations about leaky buildings and compliance had simple council processes / inspections.

Am now doing a renovation for $3,200 SQM with 17 council inspections booked as part of the consent and so many different products going in to ensure compliance the process is a darn sight harder now!

And why =- because consumers wanted something that had form before function and built dumb houses that were just not suitable to a NZ climate!

tricha
16-02-2007, 01:42 AM
Thanks for that Minimoke - to put things into context, does that mean inflation and compliances have increased that much, houses are actually still fair value [?][?][?][?]

Steve
16-02-2007, 06:45 AM
quote:Originally posted by tricha

Thanks for that Minimoke - to put things into context, does that mean inflation and compliances have increased that much, houses are actually still fair value [?][?][?][?]

If houses are considered fair value based on construction costs, then the affordibility ratio has been blown out by income not keeping pace...

duncan macgregor
16-02-2007, 09:13 AM
Anyone who has never built a new house has no idea of what the hassle is like for the builder developer. We have to donate all sorts of land, pay roading levies to the area. We have to have detailed plans, and engineers reports for every little detail. The council will go right out its way to delay the process, and make it as expensive as they can. When you finish all that they will change the rules half way through the project, even when your plans are stamped and approved. Who pays in the end for all this bullsh*t?, Its the little man in the street trying to buy a house. Nz has the most stupid house building rules in any country that i ever built in. Leaky homes is what you get when idiots make the rules nothing will change until there is a massive clean out. I cant ask a building inspector anything, they are not allowed to make a decision when a minor problem arises. It costs another $600 bucks for an engineers report with further delays, trips back and forth standing in line at the council office. Take all the rule changes out for the last thirty years, get it back to that, and start again. macdunk

tricha
17-02-2007, 01:32 AM
Steve "If houses are considered fair value based on construction costs, then the affordibility ratio has been blown out by income not keeping pace..."

Thanks for that Steve, puts it all into prospective, income has not kept pace, so rentals are screwed, because you can not and will not get rent to cover buying a property at todays prices for a very long time.

And as Duncan states, the rules to build are also screwed, hmm, need to re-think this one ........

And NZ have a people party called labour, hmm, makes you wonder sometimes ...........

George
17-02-2007, 07:32 AM
Hi everyone
I started the other thread about a possible property crash and am still of the mind we are at the top of a cycle and it would be best to wait but all this talk about costs rising could help support current prices. Wondered if anyone had some advice for our situation.

We have seen a 2 bedroom with sleepout with only a retirement village behind the back fence in a nice street in Te Atatu, that another buyer has offered, and had accepted, 280 grand, but have been stalled by their bank because they are borrowing the lot and there is some problem with the council. It's on a crosslease but is private from the one in front and all I may need their permission for in future is a carport.

The reason it 'appears' to be cheap is that the plans differ from what is there as work was done without permit and 2 other buyers were talked out of it by their lawyers.
The agent has a Lim report which the new owner must buy off her and the 'No final status' ruling is one of the things concerning the bank.
As I can do up things myself (with or without permit) none of this may be of concern and as we have a 20% deposit we should have no trouble from our bank.

Would this be a good buy (accepting that we may have to pay council any fees due at some point). This is the best house we have seen out of the 20 looked at but still wonder if waiting for a year or two may be wise.
Went to an auction in Glen Eden last week to a house I painted on its own title and it went for 358k, highest bid 340k, with the 2004 GV 260k.
Based on that the property we are looking at should be about 269k on a 195k 04 valuation, so the 280k offered seems reasonable (I would offer 270 as apart from anything else, it needs new carpet and there is no dining room only a breakfast bar so would have to knock out a wall etc).
Welcome any advice on this
George

duncan macgregor
17-02-2007, 07:36 AM
Dont even think about it. When You buy a problem it becomes yours.[V][V] Macdunk

Hommel
17-02-2007, 08:06 AM
George - I agree with Macdunk, If the issues were easy and / or cheap to sort out the sellers would have done it and be wanting more for the house. It would need to be alot cheaper to compensate for the risk.

duncan macgregor
17-02-2007, 08:31 AM
To further elaborate on buying a problem. The rules have changed from the time the house was built up until today. To make it legal might require almost complete demolition. It might get served with a demolition notice. It would be very hard to on sell it. Unless you had a complete building report on what was required to have a code of compliance cert issued leave it alone. You would find it very hard to get finance in any case.
1,Exterior wall rules completely changed.
2, decks and handrails rules completely changed.
3, Galvanised bolts and brackets changed to stainless steel.
I could carry on but i think you might be getting the picture.
macdunk

Jess9
17-02-2007, 09:44 AM
Re your above comment. Good thinking DM.

With leverage being a double edged sword, a buyer certainly must do good homework to prevent coming unstuck

JBmurc
17-02-2007, 10:53 AM
quote:Originally posted by duncan macgregor

Anyone who has never built a new house has no idea of what the hassle is like for the builder developer. We have to donate all sorts of land, pay roading levies to the area. We have to have detailed plans, and engineers reports for every little detail. The council will go right out its way to delay the process, and make it as expensive as they can. When you finish all that they will change the rules half way through the project, even when your plans are stamped and approved. Who pays in the end for all this bullsh*t?, Its the little man in the street trying to buy a house. Nz has the most stupid house building rules in any country that i ever built in. Leaky homes is what you get when idiots make the rules nothing will change until there is a massive clean out. I cant ask a building inspector anything, they are not allowed to make a decision when a minor problem arises. It costs another $600 bucks for an engineers report with further delays, trips back and forth standing in line at the council office. Take all the rule changes out for the last thirty years, get it back to that, and start again. macdunk


;)Know what ya mean Duncan - built four spec homes in Queenstown many sleepless nights stressing about complete council bollocks costs blowouts, rip-off tradies,court appearances all to make the same as the realestate leachs from it all [xx(](main work as the projet manager, designer,landscaper

-Too any One think about building in Queenstown-Be very weary-Every One whats a chunk of your hard earned $$$$$$$ be lucky to build under $2500per-sqm for a standard house

Steve
17-02-2007, 05:09 PM
George, I agree with MACDUNK - Don't buy someone elses problem!

George
18-02-2007, 06:08 AM
Thanks for the comments everyone.
I forgot to mention that the original ad in the paper said 319k but when we turned up it was for auction and the agent said the price was put in by mistake. So the 280k offered was a lot less because of these problems and the new buyer had spent some time going over things and was happy to make an offer. We will look at things very closely - won't take much to put me off given the state of the market at present. But if it's just 2-3 grand for permits and plans???????
George.

duncan macgregor
18-02-2007, 12:25 PM
quote:Originally posted by George

Thanks for the comments everyone.
But if it's just 2-3 grand for permits and plans???????
George.
:D:D:D:D. You have never done this before have you george.You are not dealing with normal people when you deal with the WAITAKERE COUNCIL[V]. macdunk

ari
19-02-2007, 10:08 AM
quote:Galvanised bolts and brackets changed to stainless steel.
Macdunk...don't get me started!
Can't remember where,(somewhere on the Northshore) but I noticed 'Council' recently built walkway and handrails...and not a stainless bolt in sight! Mind you they don't fence their own waterways either.
Also noticed recently house using Linea and they were battening for air gap....I used Linea on 2 houses 2 years ago and this was not a requirement....is this now a requirement?

duncan macgregor
19-02-2007, 11:47 AM
quote:Originally posted by ari


quote:Galvanised bolts and brackets changed to stainless steel.
Macdunk...don't get me started!
Can't remember where,(somewhere on the Northshore) but I noticed 'Council' recently built walkway and handrails...and not a stainless bolt in sight! Mind you they don't fence their own waterways either.
Also noticed recently house using Linea and they were battening for air gap....I used Linea on 2 houses 2 years ago and this was not a requirement....is this now a requirement?
I am not to sure but i built an extension on the daughters house with LINEA and stuck a cavity gap in it even although non required according to the plans. The inspector didnt seem to know either about that or anything, looked up the book reciting like a parrot.:D:Dmacdunk

whiteheron
19-02-2007, 02:34 PM
Macdunk

Thanks so much for your very informative and pragmatic comments on matters pertaining to the building trade, councils, building inspectors etc

You obviously have had extensive experience in this area --- if only the burocrats had your knowledge the building trade would be a whole lot better off

ari
19-02-2007, 02:53 PM
quote:The inspector didnt seem to know either about that or anything
My final inspections were interesting....seemed only concerned re showers & laundrey cabinets. Ran water down all joints to see if they would leak and then tried to force laundrey cabinets off wall mountings. Walked around houses and that was it....simple;)!

Steve
20-02-2007, 06:43 AM
I wonder if every week, council inspectors have a specific compliance issue to give added emphasis to?

limegreen
20-02-2007, 07:49 AM
quote:Originally posted by Steve

I wonder if every week, council inspectors have a specific compliance issue to give added emphasis to?


Either that or it's something they've been hassled on? Warrant of Fitness guys tend to get paranoid about new things after each audit...

Steve
20-02-2007, 09:58 AM
quote:Originally posted by limegreen

Either that or it's something they've been hassled on? Warrant of Fitness guys tend to get paranoid about new things after each audit...


Agree with the WOF comment. I know an LTSA compliance auditor who checks up on various garages and quite often there is an underlying theme over and above the general compliance checks.