Barramundi ( BRM )

[Beagle]

777 - With respect, In their very latest quarterly investment update received only a few days ago they said they were 80% hedged against a rising N.Z. Au currency.

[Catalyst]

What I can't fathom is that the NAV of BRM has dropped 10.6c in one week (0.943 -> 0.837) and the share price has only dropped 2c (0.79 -> 0.77). Is FF buying back stock to keep BRM above the 75c warrant level?

[Balance]

What I can't fathom is that the NAV of BRM has dropped 10.6c in one week (0.943 -> 0.837) and the share price has only dropped 2c (0.79 -> 0.77). Is FF buying back stock to keep BRM above the 75c warrant level?

You got it.

It's all about keeping up FUM.

[Balance]

How have BRM performed compared to the ASX since inception Buns ?

Balance - Lets have a look at BRM's performance since inception shall we ?

Going as far back as the Direct Broking chart allows me BRM were $1.15 in February 2007 and of course we are now at 77 cents. hmmmm, I'm sorry, I'm confused, can someone please explain to me what part of losing a third of your money over four and a bit years is impressive ?

From my viewpoint Carmel Fishers record sucks and please don't say the dividends, other companies pay dividends too and actually increase in value.

Roger - I framed my question incorrectly.

I meant to ask if you looked at Carmel Fisher's track record closely before you invested in BRM.

She is known in the broking industry for buying high and selling low. She is also known for great PR - that's how so many punters get sucked into making her millions while she loses millions for them.

[Voltaire]

What I can't fathom is that the NAV of BRM has dropped 10.6c in one week (0.943 -> 0.837) and the share price has only dropped 2c (0.79 -> 0.77). Is FF buying back stock to keep BRM above the 75c warrant level?

Agree with you re the SP. I'd be surprised if FF were buying at this price but we'll know soon enough (they generally report any purchases the following day). There's no particular reason for them to keep the warrants "in the money" - the most recent exercise date was 2 days ago, the next 23 August and the final exercise date 27 October.

[Beagle]

Roger - I framed my question incorrectly.

I meant to ask if you looked at Carmel Fisher's track record closely before you invested in BRM.

She is known in the broking industry for buying high and selling low. She is also known for great PR - that's how so many punters get sucked into making her millions while she loses millions for them.

Balance me ol mate, we're on the same page again, I feel better now :)
No buddy, I got suckered by the fancy PR marketing machine.
BRM will be punished by the market when lots of warrant holders let them lapse, that's my prediction.

Clearly the shares are overpriced at present (83.7 NAV cents less their historical average discount to NAV of about 12% = 73.6 cents. Frankly I don't think they're even worth that.

This is a dog. Speaking of which I reckon I could have got Skippy my dog to walk over the sharemarket page of the Sydney Morning herald a few years ago and picked the stocks he put his paw prints on and done way better than Barramundi so called investment "managers". Anyone want 150,000 warrants @ 2 cents a pop, (part warrant sale not considered). PM me. On second thoughts f#ck it, I've lost so much money I might as well go down with the bloody ship. Who knows Pramaxis might come right and it doesn't cost me much to wait and see for some more months. Maybe I'll ask my dog, one bark for get out now, two for wait and see, lol

P.S. I feel a bit better after having a bloody good bleat about things, there forums are great eh ?

[777]

ONVERSION OF WARRANTS AT 26 May 2011:

The following details are provided for the purposes of listing rule 7.12.9

a) 3,354,510 warrants have been converted into 3,354,510 ordinary shares

b) n/a

c) 41,915,632 warrants remain to be converted on 26 May 2011

[Voltaire]

... and Fisher Funds sell off PXS:

FF no longer a significant shareholder, with the sale of 700,000 shares yesterday for $576,096 (an average of roughly 82c per share - not bad given today's close of 71c).

[Balance]

... and Fisher Funds sell off PXS:

FF no longer a significant shareholder, with the sale of 700,000 shares yesterday for $576,096 (an average of roughly 82c per share - not bad given today's close of 71c).

Continuing the great track record of Fisher Funds' "Buy High, Sell Low."

Briscoe, Turners' Auction, Pumpkin Patch, Rakon etc ........

[percy]

Continuing the great track record of Fisher Funds' "Buy High, Sell Low."

Briscoe, Turners' Auction, Pumpkin Patch, Rakon etc ........

Not like you to miss one Balance. Comvita sold at the bottom.

[Beagle]

Fisher Funds launched Barramundi on 26 October 2006, 100,000,000 shares issued at $1.00 Par.
Nearly five years later they're 76 cents. What further illustration of the "mighty" Carmel Fisher and her investment team's performance is required....

[winner69]

Fisher Funds launched Barramundi on 26 October 2006, 100,000,000 shares issued at $1.00 Par.
Nearly five years later they're 76 cents. What further illustration of the "mighty" Carmel Fisher and her investment team's performance is required....

But you have to admit that she looks rather seductive sitting in that chair (photo in latest update)

It's about marketing eh .... great story so it must be true .... and the longer it lasts the richer Carmet gets

Outperformed the other cult figure Gareth

[Catalyst]

According to the FF website, Carmel Fisher is the investment manager for the NZ portfolios and a couple of chaps by the names of Frank Jasper and Terry Tollich do all the Australian stock picks. So I'm not sure if Carmel has had too much say in how the Aussie portfolios are run. You would hope Frank and Terry will be on tight leashes now or be replaced.

[JayRiggs]

But you have to admit that she looks rather seductive sitting in that chair (photo in latest update)

It's about marketing eh .... great story so it must be true .... and the longer it lasts the richer Carmet gets

Outperformed the other cult figure Gareth

Carmel is a MILF.
Just purchased more BRM :)

[Catalyst]

Roger - Looks like FF has now exited PXS completely. This, from the FF website...

Obviously the drop the in the Pharmaxis share price yesterday was a tremendous disappointment to us and a massive surprise to many investors in the company.

In short it seems that the European Medicines Authority (the regulator) is unlikely, at least at the first hurdle, to grant marketing authorisation for Pharmaxis to market its drug Bronchitol for Cystic Fibrosis in Europe. As the share price response indicates this was a massive negative surprise not only to us but to the analyst and investor community at large.

Assuming that Bronchitol receives a formal negative decision when the regulator meets again in late June (not definite), we believe Pharmaxis will probably appeal the outcome.

This appeal process would represent a delay of 6 months on the original timetable for a European marketing approval, assuming a successful outcome.

The chances of success in the appeal process are difficult to ascertain. Since January 2009 8 drugs have appealed negative decisions, with 3 of those appeals proving successful. PXS believes it will eventually prevail and receive European marketing approval.

The challenge for us right now is to assess what this means for the company’s future. Clearly the risk of ultimate failure to achieve this marketing authorisation has gone up although the key issues raised would seem to be addressable in any review process. Unfortunately, for now though, the risk faced by PXS has risen substantially we have decided to exit our position in the company and watch the review process from the sidelines.

Whilst the balance of probabilities suggests the company may be successful a major negative shock of this scale leads us to believe this is the prudent approach.

[winner69]

Carmel is a MILF.
Just purchased more BRM :)

..... assuming you weren't meaning MAN I LOVE FOOTBALL either

[777]

These don't look too bad.

Current Unit Price (as at 25 May 2011) $2.1972

Fund Inception June 2005
How has the fund performed as at 30 April 2011

One Month Twelve Months Two Years* Three Years* Since Launch*
Australian Growth
(Average Annual Compound Return) - 0.7% + 18.7% + 32.4% + 12.6% + 9.4%

Benchmark
(90 Day Bank Bill Rate) + 0.2% + 3.1% + 3.0% + 4.4% + 6.2%

[winner69]

These don't look too bad.

Current Unit Price (as at 25 May 2011) $2.1972

Fund Inception June 2005
How has the fund performed as at 30 April 2011

One Month Twelve Months Two Years* Three Years* Since Launch*
Australian Growth
(Average Annual Compound Return) - 0.7% + 18.7% + 32.4% + 12.6% + 9.4%

Benchmark
(90 Day Bank Bill Rate) + 0.2% + 3.1% + 3.0% + 4.4% + 6.2%

Amazing they get paid good bonuses for beating the 90 day bank rate by a few %age points .... mind you some years that is higher than the markets perform

[Beagle]

Selling Pharmaxis is probably yet another classic example of buying high and selling low.
Sex sells, that picture of her sitting there is designed to seduce aging into "investing" their money, I'll really look after you, YEAH RIGHT. Just another cunning marketing trap.
Yeah I hope those two idiots "managing" if you can call it that, the Australian portfolio are given the boot, there's no excuse for taking such extreme risks with investors money. Get rid of them.

[777]

ASX200 in October 2006 5154
ASX200 today 4653

[Anna Naum]

ASX200 in October 2006 5154
ASX200 today 4653

I thought they were stock pickers, not index pickers. Given the mandate to choose the ASX200 as a benchmark is a joke

[777]

We are all stock pickers but those stocks still float up and down with the index.

It appears that some posters have made a stock selection that has lost money and the typical reaction is to blame someone else and not take personal responsibility for their decisions.

[Anna Naum]

Or it could be that a fund manager who takes a fee for managing money should have more consideration for the outcomes (both positive and negative) of the investments they are making ON BEHALF of others. Benchmarking against a 200 stock index suggests low risk to any one stock, having 12% in one stock does not suggest prudent risk management

[JayRiggs]

I look forward to seeing what Carmel or Frank have to say about this on Newstalk ZB, Tuesday next wk 6:30pm.

[winner69]

where's the praise for the seductive one and her white knights on making heaps of money out of Centrebet

OMG it was 7% of the portfolio as well ,,, and it was a sin stock as well

[buns]

Lets hope they are now gun shy, and put all those (reduced) funds into there old fav RYM

[Beagle]

where's the praise for the seductive one and her white knights on making heaps of money out of Centrebet
OMG it was 7% of the portfolio as well ,,, and it was a sin stock as well

We've been seduced allright...into misplacing our trust, (the worst sort of seduction).
Wow Centerbet up a whopping 6% today, I'm so overwhelmed (NOT), compared to a 70% loss the other day for Pharmaxis and then they go ahead and crystalize the loss, crikey those investment managers at BRM are real rocket scientists arn't they !!
Having 12 % of BRM's money in an emerging biotech company is inexcuseable and any comparison with holdings in Arrow energy in recent years are not entirely relevant, they're naturally quite different companies and emerging biotech companies are well know for their extreme outcomes, unusally losses.

It stinks of a self serving investment designed to either reap big rewards for outperformacne for the managers if it goes right and amortise the losses across all shareholders when it goes wrong. Gross recklessness anyone or at the least breech of fiducary duty ? To sell out now under the guise of being prudent is a complete farce, all they're trying to do is cover their backside if it goes down to nothing and in the process costing shareholders any possible upside recovery. Selling now on the other hand means a quick end to this complete fiasco, obviously something the manager is clearly very keen to achieve.

I do accept however that the overall performacne of the ASX has been anything but inspiring in the last five years but I'm still convinced Skippy my dog would be a better stock picker, and no doubt much cheaper.

Buns I wish they could just whack it all into Ryman, obviously not with the BRM portfolio being limited to Au stocks. This is precisly why I'm going to manage all my own funds and do my own stock picking in the future.

In the meantime we need to push hard to get rid of the current investment "managers"

[Anna Naum]

PXS up 17c to 88c with notice that a Director has been buying.

[JayRiggs]

PXS up 17c to 88c with notice that a Director has been buying.

sigh... oh why did you sell Fishers? They shoulda been buying more now to get back 24%

[Stranger_Danger]

Having 12 % of BRM's money in an emerging biotech company is inexcuseable

Buns I wish they could just whack it all into Ryman


Roger,

You can't have it both ways. If 12% is inexcuseable, what is 100%?

Ryman could fall 50% tomorrow for all we know.

[Beagle]

Obviously it was a flippant comment but there's quite a difference between a brilliant stable and quite predictable growth stock like Ryman and a Russian roulette gamble on an emerging biotech company. The only two things those two stocks have in common is they're in the health field.

There's a vastly different risk profile between these two companies, in fact i'd go so far as to say its almost impossible to overstate how wide the gulf is.

[Toulouse - Luzern]

These don't look too bad.

Current Unit Price (as at 25 May 2011) $2.1972

Fund Inception June 2005
How has the fund performed as at 30 April 2011

One Month Twelve Months Two Years* Three Years* Since Launch*
Australian Growth
(Average Annual Compound Return) - 0.7% + 18.7% + 32.4% + 12.6% + 9.4%

Benchmark
(90 Day Bank Bill Rate) + 0.2% + 3.1% + 3.0% + 4.4% + 6.2%

Hi 777,

You make a fair point at face value that FFM BRM (and also FFM Australian Growth Fund AGF and NZ Growth Fund NZGF - I hold both) have delivered gains over recent months.

However we all look at performance related in our own personal situation.
Whether FFM AGF and NZGF has been a winner depends on just when and how your capital input went in. For example the timing and amount of lump sums and monthly contributions and whether you kept investing new capital monthly after the large falls of a couple of years ago (GFC).

Notwithstanding recent newsletter published gains there are long term FFM investors that are out of the money and especially now with FFM AGF and the PXS disaster.

[Toulouse - Luzern]

Hi all,
Todays situation and subsequent share price action in PXS reminds me:

One lunchtime, a few years ago in the Direct Broking WLG office area that had PCs available for investors I met a chap who was checking on how his very recent investment in Centro CNP on the ASX was doing.
After the initial collapse of the CNP shareprice he had quickly invested at the bottom anticipating a bounce as all the bad news was out there and people had panicked driving the share price down. He thought there was an opportunity for short term gain.
He had not been a CNP holder before the SP collapse.
His entry and exit strategy was very successful.

I note tonight that today PXS is up 21 cents to 92 cents at the close and 19.5m went through at VWAP 86.7 cents.
FFM averaged 82.29 cents for their 700,000 shares.

It is on record that: a director of PXS sold 500,000 shares at $2.95 a week before the announcement and that another director bought 250,000 at 80 cents today. BNP Paribas sold 3.5m shares about 18% of their holding.

I am not clear if FFM and BRM are 100% out of PXS at this point ...

[Catalyst]

T-L : Check out the FF website for their comment on PXS...

"...we have decided to exit our position in the company and watch the review process from the sidelines."

[Toulouse - Luzern]

T-L : Check out the FF website for their comment on PXS...

"...we have decided to exit our position in the company and watch the review process from the sidelines."

Thanks Catalyst,

I am not clear if what they mean is that they are 100% out allready, or that they have decided to get out over an unknown future timeline...

[Balance]

Thanks Catalyst,

I am not clear if what they mean is that they are 100% out allready, or that they have decided to get out over an unknown future timeline...

FF's style is that they dump and run when selling, just as they chase and ramp when buying.

Signaling to the market that they have decided to sell is plain dumb - unless they have already sold.

But then, FF has never had any problems with attracting the punters to lose money - $24m lost and she has made millions losing the money. Nice!

[Beagle]

^^^ Yeah mate, sigh...have they ever heard of the phrase, reduce ? No just dump the lot all at once and call that prudent ? It just beggars belief...

[Awamoa]

PXS up 35% today to $1.25.Looks like a bad decision Carmel.

[LeBOJ]

At least this holding was liquid. She tends to build up large parcels in illiquid stocks that she can't get out of if things sour. Might have been better in this case if she was stuck with it!

[Balance]

PXS up 35% today to $1.25.Looks like a bad decision Carmel.

Does she look like she cares?

She makes millions each year, irrespective of bad performances and bad decisions.

[Beagle]

No she doesn't care. Just pose for seductive photo's, hire the best PR and advertising money can buy, hire some brainless muppets to manage the money and go shopping...not bad work if you can get it.

[Toulouse - Luzern]

PXS up 35% today to $1.25.Looks like a bad decision Carmel.

... and the high was $1.39, and 15.4 million changed hands ...

[Balance]

... and the high was $1.39, and 15.4 million changed hands ...

Proven true again! Always right to sell when FF buys, and buy when FF sells.

There must be a special reason how a so-called professional fund manager can get it so wrong - almost all the time.

[Beagle]

Proven true again! Always right to sell when FF buys, and buy when FF sells.

There must be a "very special reason" how a so-called professional fund manager can get it so wrong - almost all the time.

There fixed it for you, and I hear you and couldn't agree more.

[777]

You need to be careful that you are not had up for slander. Opinion is one thing but without proof you are are setting yourself up.

If you guys are so clever then you would not be boring us on here. You would be out there doing it rather than complaining how others are so incapable.

They have performed better, or at least as well, than most other NZ fund managers especially with their Kiwisaver Fund.

How many investment mistakes have other funds made? Performance is all an averages game.

We are not all like you guys. We have made mistakes.

[Beagle]

Investors in Kiwisaver funds can change fund managers easily, on the other hand the investment of BRM funds is "captive" if only BRM shareholders could exit at NAV, there would be a stampede for the door.

Lots of references to plural 777, "we, us," you presume to speak for the majority of others yet the general consensus recently on this thread suggests anything but.

[Beagle]

I have not had a reply from Barramundi regarding the serious concerns I raised with them. I stand by all my earlier comments and further believe that the highly questionable manner (including but certainly not limited too the very poor diversification), in which the funds in Barramundi have been invested and the manner in which buy and sell deals are executed will deliver poor on-going performance on a risk-reward basis. I have lost any remaining confidence in the investment methodology and the investment managers at Barramundi and have completed my exit from this company. I don't believe the warrants hold any value whatsoever except in the case of a dramatic increase in share values in the remaining warrant period, which in my view is extremly unlikely. Good luck to those of you who continue to have any remaining faith in these so-called investment managers. I won't be posting again on this thread.

[bung5]

not looking too good for those options 0.1c now . and expire at 75c in 3 weeks.

[Beagle]

not looking too good for those options 0.1c now . and expire at 75c in 3 weeks.

In regard to my earlier comments and the warrants. No one in their right mind will be excercising their warrants now with the head share at 63/64 cents. That's close on 50 million warrants @ 75 cents that won't be excercised and the "mighty" team at Barramundi will not be earning, (I use the word very lightly indeed), their so called "management" charges on approx $37 million of funds under "management". Natural justice doing its work....

[winner69]

Regretting their decision to exit pxs last May and take a $34m loss? Maybe a little but after todays action they would have still been under water

And no doubt what they reinvested the cash in has done wonderfully well

[Toulouse - Luzern]

I notice BRM had the biggest rise in the NZX last week, plus 5 cents, plus 8.62%.
Any ideas?

[777]

Just recovering from a drop the week before.

Good dividend yield though if they can maintain the payout.

[Omega]

Good dividend yield though if they can maintain the payout.

BRM (and stablemate KFL) pay 8.0% of NAV but its not a true dividend; the major portion of the dividend is capital return which requires the market value of their investments to increase by the same level just to break even. Historically, the shares trade at 15% discount to NAV which provides a useful benchmark when considering buying or selling their shares.

Disc: Hold both BRM and KFL

[Balance]

Yet another Carmel Fisher special.

To think that the stock was actually trading at a premium to NTA at one time - such was the PR and media hype.

One guesses that she is really crying into her champagne and choking on the caviar on this one - with laughter!

[BIRMANBOY]

You obviously dont have Carmel on your Xmas card list...how much of your disatisfaction with the Fisher funds could realistically be blamed on her as opposed to a generally dropping market. Seems a bit unfair to single out one individual for a poster named "Balance" but maybe you have valid reasons. To suggest she is taking pleasure in your apparent illfortune is ridiculous. I have BRM and am quite satisfied...returns a nice steady healthy dividend. All companies and funds use marketing, "media hype" and PR as a given.
Yet another Carmel Fisher special.

To think that the stock was actually trading at a premium to NTA at one time - such was the PR and media hype.

One guesses that she is really crying into her champagne and choking on the caviar on this one - with laughter!

[CJ]

Birmanboy - I have just compared BRM to OZY on Google Finance. On all time periods YTD, 1y, 5y and 10y, OZY was a better investment. I dont think that factors in dividends but unless BRM pays huge divs, I still think the index fund will come out on top.

Not sure about liquidity of either.

Do you think BRM is a better investment?

[Balance]

You obviously dont have Carmel on your Xmas card list...how much of your disatisfaction with the Fisher funds could realistically be blamed on her as opposed to a generally dropping market. Seems a bit unfair to single out one individual for a poster named "Balance" but maybe you have valid reasons. To suggest she is taking pleasure in your apparent illfortune is ridiculous. I have BRM and am quite satisfied...returns a nice steady healthy dividend. All companies and funds use marketing, "media hype" and PR as a given.

I am making an observation for posterity and for the record.

"Buy high, sell low" Fisher had a great run with the buy stocks and ramp them higher strategy with KFL for a while, using the "great" returns to launch Barramundi and Marlin.

Talk to Craigs & Co about how they feel now about building KFL, BRM and MLN into their clients' portfolios. Or was it all about the easy sell and easy fees?

[BIRMANBOY]

Not entirely sure what OZY is...if its something to do with AUSTralian group of shares then I stay away from shares based in AUSTRALIA. These plenty of NZ shares that are worth following. I have BRM because it seems to return a steady dividend stream. I know they are based on AUST shares buts its easier for me to let a specialist find the worthwhile listings. I dont have time (or inclination) to do research on backgrounds etc. etc. I have a diversified portfolio so try and spread the love around if you know what I mean. Some are better than others and if I spent a lot of time I might fine tune these things to take advantage of small differences. OZY could well be a better investment. I am getting about a 9.6% return on my investment with BRM so to be honest I havent looked elsewhere.
Birmanboy - I have just compared BRM to OZY on Google Finance. On all time periods YTD, 1y, 5y and 10y, OZY was a better investment. I dont think that factors in dividends but unless BRM pays huge divs, I still think the index fund will come out on top.

Not sure about liquidity of either.

Do you think BRM is a better investment?

[CJ]

Not entirely sure what OZY is...It is an index fund of Australian shares - top 20 - http://www.smartshares.nzx.com/products/ozzy/. It is also a pie and pays regular dividends. Why let someone do the picking for you when you can just pick the market. The answer is yu let someone pick when they are better than the market. I dont think this is the case for BRM, at least on a historical basis, based on my comparison with Google finance. having said that, past performance is not an indication of future performance.

[BIRMANBOY]

Ok, thanks. Index funds based on top 20, middle 30 or whatever dont really strike me as being the way i like to do things. Its the "averaging" aspect that I dislike. Any high performers will be countered by the dudds so it would seem that you are left with an "average" performance. My goal is to look for above average returns that dont wander into the speculative category. BRM does the research, puts their collective necks and our funds on the line and cherry picks. As I mentioned BRM is returning 9.6% for me due to some canny(lucky) buying by me at low prices so when I do the math its a hard one to beat for my dividend oriented portfolio. Also of course the dividends are fully imputed. I have been looking to buy more but it hasnt approached my average cost for months. Seems to hit resistance at 61. Every now and then after a dividend it can make a dip. There is a large queue of buyers waiting as well. Something like 300,000 shares wanted made up of 20-30 buyers. BRM regularly buys as well which seems to keep the price up. Would be interesting? to see what happened to the share price if they stopped buying however. Re your Google research..has to be taken with a grain of salt because they dont factor in individuals cost prices. Someone who holds at .75 will be less content than someone who holds at .61 for example
It is an index fund of Australian shares - top 20 - http://www.smartshares.nzx.com/products/ozzy/. It is also a pie and pays regular dividends. Why let someone do the picking for you when you can just pick the market. The answer is yu let someone pick when they are better than the market. I dont think this is the case for BRM, at least on a historical basis, based on my comparison with Google finance. having said that, past performance is not an indication of future performance.

[Balance]

Ok, thanks. Index funds based on top 20, middle 30 or whatever dont really strike me as being the way i like to do things. Its the "averaging" aspect that I dislike. Any high performers will be countered by the dudds so it would seem that you are left with an "average" performance. My goal is to look for above average returns that dont wander into the speculative category. BRM does the research, puts their collective necks and our funds on the line and cherry picks. As I mentioned BRM is returning 9.6% for me due to some canny(lucky) buying by me at low prices so when I do the math its a hard one to beat for my dividend oriented portfolio. Also of course the dividends are fully imputed. I have been looking to buy more but it hasnt approached my average cost for months. Seems to hit resistance at 61. Every now and then after a dividend it can make a dip. There is a large queue of buyers waiting as well. Something like 300,000 shares wanted made up of 20-30 buyers. BRM regularly buys as well which seems to keep the price up. Would be interesting? to see what happened to the share price if they stopped buying however. Re your Google research..has to be taken with a grain of salt because they dont factor in individuals cost prices. Someone who holds at .75 will be less content than someone who holds at .61 for example

What a brilliant investment - 39% down - but Carmel Fisher wins, hands down.

[BIRMANBOY]

I'm truly sorry that your investment is down 39% with BRM. If its any consolation I have some shares that are down to...namely GFF and SKA. But isnt that the nature of the share market? It would be unreasonable to expect that every decision we make is the correct one. We make our decisions based on the available information we have at the time in question. However its our decision...no-one forced us. This is why its so important to have a diversified portfolio. So you bought BRM at the wrong time...but others you purchased maybe at the right time. Time has a habit od blurring out the hard edges. I was looking at the opening post on TUA yesterday by Phaedrus..who most people seem to think is the resurrected Jesus. Baically he was saying its rubbish and downward death spiral etc.etc. And now is at 1.75 and has superb dividends. So go figure. As Kath and KIm would say....Look at moiii...one word for you....diversify. I'm sorry you blame Carmel however..thats not fair as I said before. I doubt very much whether she intended to cause harm but we all (including the experts) make mistakes.
What a brilliant investment - 39% down - but Carmel Fisher wins, hands down.

[Balance]

I'm truly sorry that your investment is down 39% with BRM. If its any consolation I have some shares that are down to...namely GFF and SKA. But isnt that the nature of the share market? It would be unreasonable to expect that every decision we make is the correct one. We make our decisions based on the available information we have at the time in question. However its our decision...no-one forced us. This is why its so important to have a diversified portfolio. So you bought BRM at the wrong time...but others you purchased maybe at the right time. Time has a habit od blurring out the hard edges. I was looking at the opening post on TUA yesterday by Phaedrus..who most people seem to think is the resurrected Jesus. Baically he was saying its rubbish and downward death spiral etc.etc. And now is at 1.75 and has superb dividends. So go figure. Austs Kath and KIm would say....Look at moiii...one word for you....diversify. I'm sorry you blame Carmel however..thats not fair as I said before. I doubt very much whether she intended to cause harm but we all (including the experts) make mistakes.

Ask Carmel about her management of Prudential Emerging Companies Trust.

[Balance]

Last NTA update - 76.83 cps on 13 Sep.
Sp was 62 cents = 19% discount.

Market is not dumb and is telling you something profound.

The decent thing to do is wind this fund up and return the full 76.83 cents back to unit holders but she will not do that and there is nothing to compel her to do that.

Just a lot of small time retail investors without clout to force her to perform or to return the funds.

What Carmel Fisher is doing is cleverly dragging the life-span of this miserable lousy performing fund out - so that she can maximized her fees year on year until she has bled the last cent out of it into her Gucci Italian silk-lined pockets as she tucks into the caviar and cries softly into her champagne, sitting on the balcony of the 6 star hotel overlooking the Eiffel Tower.

Throw a few crumbs to the pathetic peasants and they should consider themselves lucky they are even getting the crumbs.

[Balance]

https://www.nzx.com/companies/BRM/announcements/239120

Heads she wins, tails you lose.

Share price still 30% off issue price but she gets $659,043 plus GST performance fee for 'outstanding performance' in the last financial year!

[OldRider]

I hold no BRM shares, and am not an apologist for Fisher Funds, but comparing BRM with MFG is to me meaningless, where is the similarity in what they are doing?

The fees charged may be high but it's the return that counts is it not?

Comparing with AFI and ARG, both respected ASX managers with rather lower fees I suspect, and companies I would prefer to invest with,
looking at share prices alone, leaving aside the NTA, which might be better to compare
AFI has risen by 3.11% and ARG by 3.68%, BRM has decreased by 6.76% since 1 April 2013

During this period the NZ/Aust crossrate has risen from 0.8040 to 0.8803, about 10% - add 10% to -6.76
and you get a return of 3.24%, it appears to me that the return of BRM has been affected by the currency change, and their
investment return has been very similar to AFI and ARG.

[BIRMANBOY]

Holding and very happy with my 10.17% gross yield..thanks Carmel and the team.

[CJ]

Holding and very happy with my 10.17% gross yield..thanks Carmel and the team.They must be a good buy. They are buying them themselves! ;)

[BIRMANBOY]

Ha...yes buying them at less than NAV ....then if they sell the equivalent value of some of the holdings on market in in OZ at market price..they have an automatic ongoing profit margin of the difference. I'm not sure my somewhat feeble brain understands the whole picture but I'm along for the ride.
They must be a good buy. They are buying them themselves! ;)

[Balance]

Holding and very happy with my 10.17% gross yield..thanks Carmel and the team.

Pay you your capital back and it's a yield?

Now I know why they say one is born everyday! :D

[nextbigthing]

For the benefit of someone who is greener than spring growth but interested in learning;

BRM according to ASB stats;

EPS 16c versus share price of .70c seems great to someone green

Dividend 6.3cps giving seemingly healthy return of 9.14%. Seems good.

P.E ratio of 4.25 making it seem cheap to someone green.

And even with 9% dividend there's still 10 cents per share left to play with.

As stated earlier the management fees are hefty but if the return is there....

I haven't researched this company which is obviously something that would need to be done prior to any share purchase however provided these returns were reasonably consistent then seemingly with due diligence his would be a good buy.

Yet the sentiment here seems generally unfavourable (to word it nicely).

So is this because;

a) people are unhappy about the performance and share price given the stellar run of the market as of recent

b) the company is not favoured due to lack of growth potential and relative uncertainty of dividends as opposed to say a utility company therefore 'guaranteeing' neither growth or dividends.

c) Mr market does what he wants.

d) Some other reason

Cheers

NBT

[777]

Answer d) It is an "anti Carmel" thing.

[Lizard]

Answer d) It is an "anti Carmel" thing.

It is always possible that Balance is one of her cousins (https://forms.justice.govt.nz/search/Documents/pdf/jdo/c3/alfresco/service/api/node/content/workspace/SpacesStore/bc3fa663-b9e9-44b3-ab2e-7258c4de6e3c/bc3fa663-b9e9-44b3-ab2e-7258c4de6e3c.pdf). :eek2:

Either way, we are all sick of provoking him into his usual tirade by posting anything remotely positive.

[Balance]

For the benefit of someone who is greener than spring growth but interested in learning;

BRM according to ASB stats;

EPS 16c versus share price of .70c seems great to someone green

Dividend 6.3cps giving seemingly healthy return of 9.14%. Seems good.

P.E ratio of 4.25 making it seem cheap to someone green.

And even with 9% dividend there's still 10 cents per share left to play with.

As stated earlier the management fees are hefty but if the return is there....

I haven't researched this company which is obviously something that would need to be done prior to any share purchase however provided these returns were reasonably consistent then seemingly with due diligence his would be a good buy.

Yet the sentiment here seems generally unfavourable (to word it nicely).

So is this because;

a) people are unhappy about the performance and share price given the stellar run of the market as of recent

b) the company is not favoured due to lack of growth potential and relative uncertainty of dividends as opposed to say a utility company therefore 'guaranteeing' neither growth or dividends.

c) Mr market does what he wants.

d) Some other reason

Cheers

NBT

All of the above plus Fisher's track record of buying them high, and swelling them low - but cranking in the fees - the fees - the fees.

Unit price goes down (say 90 cents to 70 cents), she collects management fees and cries softly into her champagne from the balconey overlooking Takapuna Beach.

Unit price goes up from the bad performance price (say from 70 cents to 85 cents), she collects management fees and performance fees - and cries quietly into her champagne and caviar from the balcony overlooking the Eiffel Tower.

You like?

:D

[Lizard]

Unit price goes down (say 90 cents to 70 cents), she collects management fees and cries softly into her champagne from the balconey overlooking Takapuna Beach.

Unit price goes up from the bad performance price (say from 70 cents to 85 cents), she collects management fees and performance fees ...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my reading (http://www.barramundi.co.nz/uploads///barramundi-prospectus.pdf), there is a "high watermark" applied to the NAV before performance fees can be paid, so she can actually only keep 15% of the return above previous high watermark and does not make any performance fee if overall value does not exceed previous highs. This watermark is adjusted for dividends, so it is possible for the NAV to fall (as it has, being currently below issue price) and still receive a performance fee, provided the dividends plus NAV still amount to an increase in value since last performance fee paid (and the benchmark rate is exceeded in that year).

[Lizard]

Tackling the question as to whether fees are excessive is unlikely to be as clear cut as it appears. However, from what I can see, BRM incurs a 1.25% management fee (reduced for poor performance) and 15% of gains above the benchmark index (subject to high watermark), of which 50% is effectively paid by the issue of new BRM shares.

The high watermark effectively means the last "high" NAV at which a performance fee was paid. The reason there is still a fee at current levels when the shares were originally issued at $1, is that the value is adjusted for dividends issued.

For comparison (and since MFG was mentioned), Magellan Flagship fund also appears to have base fees of 1.25%, but requires performance to exceed 10%pa before paying performance fees and will no longer pay performance fees after 2016. The Magellan Global Fund (unlisted) has base fees of 1.35% and pays 10% of excess return above benchmark subject to also high watermark and also exceeding fixed interest rates (in the form of the 10 yr govt bond rate).

The Milford Asset Management Trans-Tasman fund might be more comparable to BRM, if unlisted, and has a 1.05% base rate and performance fee of 15% above benchmark - the benchmark being NZX50 portfolio index at time of trust deed (net of fees and gross of tax). I could not find evidence of a high watermark, but it is possible there is one.

Pie Funds seems to have a 1.5% base management fee ($150,000 per fund minimum) and a performance fee of 15% of return above previous high watermark.

[nextbigthing]

You like?

:D

I like the idea of starting my own managed fund and collecting $600,000 odd in fees :)

[Balance]

Answer d) It is an "anti Carmel" thing.

I have witnessed Fisher executives (principally Carmel) marketing the hell out of the 'buy high and keep buying to show performance' King Fisher Fund to entice investors into Barramundi and Marlin. The financial advisors get their upfront fees (very nice) and Fisher gets management and performance fees for life.

The investors get?

Don't believe me? Have a chat with the AFAs (eg. Craigs' advisors) and banks like ASB who marketed the hell out of the Fisher funds - they certainly are keeping very quiet about their involvement!

[bonne vie]

The fees may appear high but to give it some perspective re Kingfish and Barramundi - I am happy with my investment.

KFL - investment $5000, profit to date $5,136.44
I invested a modest $2,500 (my first shares bought) when KFL launched 31/3/2004 and then purchased a further 2500 shares $2,500 31/3/08. By 9/1/13 from dividend reinvesting I had accumulated 7801 shares and sold off 2801( the dividend shares) to realise $3191.25. The current value my original 5000 shares plus this years dividend shares 211 is $6,774.30 - so in total real/paper profit $4,965. 85 (plus sold warrants issued 2010 $170.89)

BRM - 29/4/08 purchased 2000 shares for $1,400 - current paper profit $615.29 or after tax 8.72% (nb return based on days held but not compounded)

So maybe the fees do appear high, but to me the returns are acceptable.

[Grimy]

I've certainly had a lot worse investments than KFL. Sold my last few last week at 1.31. Bought at low-mid 90s. As mentioned above, no one likes paying (high) fees, but the return has been better than a lot of my self-managed shares, so I'm not complaining.

[Sideshow Bob]

I bought into KFL about April/May last year at 94, mainly as a default position to be in the market, but over a portfolio of shares. 55% return with divvies into the DRP.

Sure, understand what Balance is saying, with divvies supported from capital, and the management fees, and performance particularly in regard to Barramundi & Marlin.

Not a long term hold, but at this stage I just wish I'd bought more of them.......but now looking to exit when I see something more enticing.

[Balance]

I bought into KFL about April/May last year at 94, mainly as a default position to be in the market, but over a portfolio of shares. 55% return with divvies into the DRP.

Sure, understand what Balance is saying, with divvies supported from capital, and the management fees, and performance particularly in regard to Barramundi & Marlin.

Not a long term hold, but at this stage I just wish I'd bought more of them.......but now looking to exit when I see something more enticing.

Wish I bought more Diligent :D

[CJ]

Wish I bought more Diligent :DWish I didn't sell Xero

Sideshow Bob. 55% is a very good return but the market has done well too (not that well though). That is too short a period to judge.

[Sideshow Bob]

Absolutely CJ. Not a long term hold, but a bid of recompense for not buying Ryman at about $2.70......bugger

[Balance]

Anyone picked this disaster up?

"On a larger scale, but still way short of blue chip, Australian salary packaging company McMillan Shakespeare produced a stomach-churning drop of 50 per cent for shareholders last month after the Government proposed tax changes that could poleaxe its core business.

The drop was particularly bad news for listed New Zealand investment fund Barramundi, managed by Fisher Funds, which had McMillan Shakespeare as one of its top-five portfolio holdings."

Classic Fisher style investment - buy high, sell low?

[CJ]

Anyone picked this disaster up?

"On a larger scale, but still way short of blue chip, Australian salary packaging company McMillan Shakespeare produced a stomach-churning drop of 50 per cent for shareholders last month after the Government proposed tax changes that could poleaxe its core business.

The drop was particularly bad news for listed New Zealand investment fund Barramundi, managed by Fisher Funds, which had McMillan Shakespeare as one of its top-five portfolio holdings."

Classic Fisher style investment - buy high, sell low?a bit harsh in case. They were a good company and then the Govt, without warning destroyed over half their business.

Similar would be like SkyTV being told, not just that they were going to be regulated but that all sports must be free to air live.

[bryndlefly]

This company pays a 10% dividend, their March 14 update looks pretty positive... and yet their share price is plummeting, am i missing something here?
The Aussie mining boom is supposedly over, but that would only affect a small part of BRM's portfolio I would have thought. Is it just negative sentiment about the Australian economy in general causing the shareprice drop?

[BIRMANBOY]

Leave some for me please.....unfortunately wallet has been emptied for Teamtalk. Hasn't been this low in quite a while...Someone (mustn't mention any names in case we get the usual sermon) must be selling his shares off!
you arent missing anything.
time to buy lots for me

[nextbigthing]

you arent missing anything.
time to buy lots for me

Snapiti or anyone else, do you have any solid analysis on BRM that you'd care to share?

Last time I asked the question similar to Bryndlefly someone suggested BRM was using capital to pay dividends and therefore the value of the company was slowly decreasing. Whether this is true or not I don't know. I looked in to it but found a better option (PEB @ .50 :t_up: )

Cheers

NBT

[winner69]

from the Morningstar report on the brm website the chart showing shareprice discount to nav suggestd that the current gap is the closest it has been for a few years

looks like tracking 6%-9% discount to NAV

thou at 61 cents the discount to last weeks nav has widened a bit ...maybe nav has declined

[Joshuatree]

Good point winner. Top 5 stocks making up re 39%. Credit Corp is drifting down but the rest look pretty good. If NAV is still the same ,discount now re 16%.

[nextbigthing]

Maybe the type of investors who were holding Barramundi were doing so because bank interest rates were so terrible. Now that bank interest rates are picking up (or forecast to) and Australia is apparently underperforming, they are selling out and happily plonking their money in the bank?

Looks to be in a fairly well established downtrend. Depth doesn't look very good either, if it's accurate.

Disc; not holding ATM.

[JayRiggs]

Perhaps one contributing factor to the recent decline is the Fisher Funds Australian portfolio manager, Frank Jasper is stepping down for a different role at Fisher Funds. The current International funds analyst Manuel Greenland is taking over.
This could be a good thing for BRM though. While Frank seems like a nice guy, BRM hasn't performed well at all in recent years and failed to fire like KFL. Manuel might do a better job.

[Joshuatree]

Too big a discount(if I'm right) imo to not take some up @ 61c.

[Joshuatree]

Latest NAV out NAV 69c. I make that a 13% discount @ 61c still higher than norm. Now where to from here for the mkt?

[nextbigthing]

Latest NAV out NAV 69c. I make that a 13% discount @ 61c still higher than norm. Now where to from here for the mkt?

What discount do comparable companies of the like usually trade at?

[winner69]

Interestingly at 61 the 12% discount to NAV is just about the average it has been over the past 15 months or so (see chart)

Analysts often use a z-score (no not the Altman one) to assess whether a fund like this is a screaming buy or a sell. The magnitude of the z-score shows whether the difference between the current discount and the average is statistically significant, ie is the difference due to more than just random chance?

BRM short term z-score is 0.1 - as you would think seeing todays discount is pretty close to the average anyway. Would be better to take a longer time frame but a cursory look at a chart in one of their reports would suggest the long term average is higher than what it is now anyway. So on these numbers pretty ho hum and not a screaming buy. Guru analysts would like to see a 16%/17% discount before saying a screaming buy

BRM is a bit unusual with giving punters investments back as a dividend so such an analytical tool maybe not that appropriate. Whatever one should not forget that invariably the discount to NAV of most investment funds in the NPV of future management fees which in this case (as Balance would remind us) are quite high. Sometimes I feel that future dividends are somehow incorporated into the discount as well.

Thanks for raising such a subject - had a look at some numbers which was interesting but not really tempted

[nextbigthing]

Winner that is an excellent reply. Thanks for the great post. So the answer to Bryn's original question is probably that it has been overpriced as of recent and that the current price is just correcting to normal where it now lies.

The last six months of the shareprice follows a parabolic arc up and down, funnily enough as does Winners graph...

[Joshuatree]

Yes very good little chart there. Not being picky but i make it 13% discount , 8 divided by 69. My situ and current rebalancing requires more income from my portfolio; BRM fits nicely at decent discount and hopefully Genesis is a good fit too. Caveat with BRM is a possible decent correction coming so haven't gone ballistic with my first shoal of shares.

[winner69]

Yes very good little chart there. Not being picky but i make it 13% discount , 8 divided by 69. My situ and current rebalancing requires more income from my portfolio; BRM fits nicely at decent discount and hopefully Genesis is a good fit too. Caveat with BRM is a possible decent correction coming so haven't gone ballistic with my first shoal of shares.

To be really really picky my trusty Canon calculator says 8/69 is 11.6% .....and I was nice and rounded to 12%

You work for KMD obviously ....they managed to increase profits by 9.8% but with several sets of roundings were able to report them being 11% up

[winner69]

And the free calculator app on the iPad says its 11.55574887632304%

Amazing what you get with free stuff eh

[winner69]

Yes very good little chart there. Not being picky but i make it 13% discount , 8 divided by 69. My situ and current rebalancing requires more income from my portfolio; BRM fits nicely at decent discount and hopefully Genesis is a good fit too. Caveat with BRM is a possible decent correction coming so haven't gone ballistic with my first shoal of shares.

The price chart probably looks like that because since Feb 2013 the NAV has declined by 19% (rounded). NAV was 85 cents back then

That's in NZD so some forex impact and the dividend impact but heck 19% is a lot eh

But alls OK because adjusted NAV is over a dollar. Maybe Balance can explain that

[Joshuatree]

And the free calculator app on the iPad says its 11.55574887632304%

Amazing what you get with free stuff eh lol awesome calculator and you're right, how did i get that wrong Twice. My eyes prob ; am off to have laser done on a tear in my only good eye tomorrow; if i stuff up again you'll know why:ohmy:

[bryndlefly]

Thanks for the informative answers everyone. The current share price makes more sense to me now. cheers

[Balance]

Heads they win, tails you lose.

Imagine using capital to pay 'dividends' to give the illusion of performance while they rip fees out year after year.

Might as well invest in Sanford if you like fish.

[winner69]

Heads they win, tails you lose.

Imagine using capital to pay 'dividends' to give the illusion of performance while they rip fees out year after year.

Might as well invest in Sanford if you like fish.

Quick calculation (on the trusty old Canon) gives the future value of those performance fees at 7-8 cents a unit - hey that's about the discount to NAV.

Heads they win, tails you lose

[winner69]

Thanks for the informative answers everyone. The current share price makes more sense to me now. cheers

Is it a buy for you though?

[Joshuatree]

Tackling the question as to whether fees are excessive is unlikely to be as clear cut as it appears. However, from what I can see, BRM incurs a 1.25% management fee (reduced for poor performance) and 15% of gains above the benchmark index (subject to high watermark), of which 50% is effectively paid by the issue of new BRM shares.

The high watermark effectively means the last "high" NAV at which a performance fee was paid. The reason there is still a fee at current levels when the shares were originally issued at $1, is that the value is adjusted for dividends issued.

For comparison (and since MFG was mentioned), Magellan Flagship fund also appears to have base fees of 1.25%, but requires performance to exceed 10%pa before paying performance fees and will no longer pay performance fees after 2016. The Magellan Global Fund (unlisted) has base fees of 1.35% and pays 10% of excess return above benchmark subject to also high watermark and also exceeding fixed interest rates (in the form of the 10 yr govt bond rate).

The Milford Asset Management Trans-Tasman fund might be more comparable to BRM, if unlisted, and has a 1.05% base rate and performance fee of 15% above benchmark - the benchmark being NZX50 portfolio index at time of trust deed (net of fees and gross of tax). I could not find evidence of a high watermark, but it is possible there is one.

Pie Funds seems to have a 1.5% base management fee ($150,000 per fund minimum) and a performance fee of 15% of return above previous high watermark.

Good stuff , thanks lizard

[bryndlefly]

Is it a buy for you though?

i bought into them last September when they were uptrending, i was actually looking at their sliding shareprice wondering if i should sell. They're now worth almost 10% less than what i paid for them, but they do pay a decent dividend, so hadn't made up my mind. i've held onto falling stocks before though, so wondered if i should try this whole stoploss limit thingy. As you can probably tell I'm fairly self-taught with share trading and am working it out by trial and error (mostly error... although i've had the occasional good investment too).

[Billy Boy]

I also have been watching them...
Have had the trigger finger at the ready.
I do not see them moving enough until the
ozzy economy starts to pick up. And that could be
some time off
BB

[Balance]

i bought into them last September when they were uptrending, i was actually looking at their sliding shareprice wondering if i should sell. They're now worth almost 10% less than what i paid for them, but they do pay a decent dividend, so hadn't made up my mind. i've held onto falling stocks before though, so wondered if i should try this whole stoploss limit thingy. As you can probably tell I'm fairly self-taught with share trading and am working it out by trial and error (mostly error... although i've had the occasional good investment too).

That's exactly the point - they pay you a 'dividend' which is actually a return of your capital and that is reflected ion the sp going down.

You go nowhere but they charge you the management fee to do the illusion of giving you a return.

Humbug.

[BIRMANBOY]

if you look at the 5 year chart you will notice that the vast majority of the time has been spent at a higher price than 61....If it did get as low as this it has had the tendency to recover. if you ignore the highs and lows the average price looks to be about 68. Also it has produced strong dividend returns so IMHO its a buy (and hold). Other strident posters have been ongoing and relentless in their criticism...so be it. Results and money in the bank is all I care about...until they prove me wrong they are good to go. As always make up your own mind.
i bought into them last September when they were uptrending, i was actually looking at their sliding shareprice wondering if i should sell. They're now worth almost 10% less than what i paid for them, but they do pay a decent dividend, so hadn't made up my mind. i've held onto falling stocks before though, so wondered if i should try this whole stoploss limit thingy. As you can probably tell I'm fairly self-taught with share trading and am working it out by trial and error (mostly error... although i've had the occasional good investment too).

[bull....]

That's exactly the point - they pay you a 'dividend' which is actually a return of your capital and that is reflected ion the sp going down.

You go nowhere but they charge you the management fee to do the illusion of giving you a return.

Humbug.

You make it sound like a ponsi scheme

[Joshuatree]

Of course ;he is one eyed with a 2 headed coin in his pocket and an allergy to curls and pearls:)

[JayRiggs]

Could be share dilution as well when they issue DRP shares.
For the last dividend, 1,159,479 new shares were issued.
Whereas only 15,000 were issued from treasury stock.
1,174,479 total shares issued for DRP representing 0.97% of all shares.

Something else I noticed, they only recently started their stock buyback after no buybacks for about 3 months. So next dividend they will probably issue more shares from treasury stocks.

I think 61c is a good entry anyway and picked some up.

[percy]

From late 2007 until now the share price is down 36.36%.
In the last 5 years the share price is down 15.5%.
In the past year the share price is down 12.5%.

[percy]

me thinks you are playing with the charts.
I purchased BRM 5 years ago at 37 cps plus have collected a **** load of divi stocks for a 100% plus overall return.
Investment is always about research and timing.

Charts were Yahoo Finance.
People who paid $1 at issue certainly got their timing wrong.
If you have made money with BRM you have done well.

[Balance]

From late 2007 until now the share price is down 36.36%.
In the last 5 years the share price is down 15.5%.
In the past year the share price is down 12.5%.

Snapiti's idea of a good return?

Dread to think what his idea of a bad investment is!!!

:D

[Balance]

I had a look at the yahoo finance charts so I can see how you got misinformed about the 5 year return.
I bought for 37cps when BRM had an nta of just 44 cps.
This happened shortly after the GFC but in support of the yahoo charts the price did zoom up after a few weeks of purchase but I cant remember them going as high as the yahoo charts suggest but they might of.
Take a look at the ASB and DB 5 year charts they look quite different to yahoo's at the 5 year ago point.

No misinformation, Snapiti.

Good on you if you bought low in BRM, just as good on all those who bought up large after the GFC in various stocks - eg. THL has provided 200%+ return.

However, BRM has been a dog of a fund for investors and the only real winner every step of the way is the manager with the 'heads we win, tails you lose' fee structure.

You are of course welcome to crow their praises for them.

Dogs do bark at crows, you know?

[Balance]

do your homework Balance.
Take a look at the ASB or DB 5 year chart certainly shows I bought at the right time.
Is a 100% return including divi's over a 5 year period not good enough for you BALANCE.
You are a hard person to please.:p

Yawn - try 1000%+ on DIL and PEB.

No need for managers to disguise bad returns by paying out capital as dividends - which self-respecting manager does that?

[Balance]

These guys are pump and dump which has worked quite well for them in a tiny illiquid NZ market. Chase them into Australia at your peril. Much smarter sharks over there who will eat them alive.

Words of wisdom from 2006.

[Balance]

without a doubt I am sure you could dribble on all day about better investments and equally as long about worse investment in the last 5 years.
All I am saying is a total return of over 100% in 5 years is very pleasing to me.
Far superior to a term deposit or coperate bond return.

You are talking about YOU and your perfectly timed investment into BRM, Snapiti.

The critical point here is about BRM being a lousy investment for its shareholders in general but great for its manager, irrespective of how badly BRM has performed - and will perform.

Anyone can brag about their great investments - eg. someone who bought TRS at 0.02c and sold at 1c, and made 500% in a week. Does that make TRS a great investment?

[Balance]

Balance that is the same as saying if you bought PEB at $1.70 and 1 month latter it is trading at 1.30 does that mean PEB is a bad investment.

No, it doesn't.

But when you have BRM delivering negative returns - measured over 3 years, 5 years and from inception - it is a losuy investment especially when the manager gets paid irrespective of how badly they manage the fund.

Please don't try the old trick by changing the goal posts to deflect from how badly BRM (and for that matter, its equally smelly fishy counterpart) has performed for its investors - compared to the manager who reaped millions of dollars for fees for failing to perform.

[percy]

Snapiti
I have had a look at Stocknessmonster and FT charts.They are very different from Yahoo chart.So I find myself apologising for Yahoo charts.!!! Sorry to waste your time.!

[Beagle]

My view. Fisher funds is a way to cheaply buy a moderatly well diversified group of shares.
Some of the investment decision making in regard to Barramundi has been really bizarre and I believe the fund manager has done very well, whereas on the other hand the average investor has been served very poorly. Of course some will claim they have incredible timing, (a paid employee of Fisher Funds might suggest that for example), but any way you slice and dice this debate a fund manager deserves to be measured against its peers and I'd back Milford Asset Management any day of the week over Fisher funds. Milford's reputation has been well earned and they are well respected whereas on the other hand...

[Balance]

I take it you refer to KFL which I purchased about 2 years ago for 90 cps recieved fantastic quarterly dividends and sold last month for 1.31 giving me a return on my investment of 45% plus the divi.
Wont lose too much sleep with those sort of investment returns banked.
More than happy if this sort of investment is considered to be a dog by you balance.

Which part of You and your investment do you not understand?

Go back to how much money has been lost by investors in BRM, MLN, KFL while the fund manager ripped millions in fees for them losing money.

That's what the thread is about - not you and your bravado.

[nextbigthing]

Which part of You and your investment do you not understand?

Go back to how much money has been lost by investors in BRM, MLN, KFL while the fund manager ripped millions in fees for them losing money.

That's what the thread is about - not you and your bravado.

Balance,

I appreciate the fees might be high, do you have the BRM figures with links etc to back the 'losing money' part up?

Cheers,

NBT

[Snow Leopard]

Which part of You and your investment do you not understand?

Go back to how much money has been lost by investors in BRM, MLN, KFL while the fund manager ripped millions in fees for them losing money.

That's what the thread is about - not you and your bravado.

Neither is thread about your obsessive hatred of Fisher Fund's.

Reasonable debate - please!

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

[Balance]

Neither is thread about your obsessive hatred of Fisher Fund's.

Reasonable debate - please!

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Go back to your wayang kulit chase on PEB, PT - still have not replied to the query on your comparison of Snakk insiders selling vs PEB insiders selling?

:D

[Balance]

Balance,

I appreciate the fees might be high, do you have the BRM figures with links etc to back the 'losing money' part up?

Cheers,

NBT

NBT, BRM has lost 38% in capital value in 7.5 years - issued at $1.00 and it's now trading 62 cents.

Meanwhile, guess how much the manager has been paid in fees for this 'outstanding' performance?

[winner69]

See Total Shareholder returns (that is after they reinvest the money they give you back) is quite extraordinary since 2009 (the blue line)

Share price (the green line) not so hot

But if they hadn't returned capital as dividends wouldn't the NAV be higher ... and the shareprice higher

From Barramundi website

[nextbigthing]

NBT, BRM has lost 38% in capital value in 7.5 years - issued at $1.00 and it's now trading 62 cents.

Meanwhile, guess how much the manager has been paid in fees for this 'outstanding' performance?

Doesn't shareprice alone mean nothing, Xero is $40 and ATM is 90 cents? Agreed it's a real drop if someone has bought $1.00x and sold at $0.62x but there's obviously more to it than just shareprice. Eg NTA per share etc - do you have figures something for this which shows they have in fact lost value in real terms?

Just trying to learn and keep the debate accurate.

Cheers,

NBT

[Balance]

Doesn't shareprice alone mean nothing, Xero is $40 and ATM is 90 cents? Agreed it's a real drop if someone has bought $1.00x and sold at $0.62x but there's obviously more to it than just shareprice. Eg NTA per share etc - do you have figures something for this which shows they have in fact lost value in real terms?

Just trying to learn and keep the debate accurate.

Cheers,

NBT


NTA means nothing in the real world unless you can cash out at that NTA.

You can do that with unlisted unit trusts as a general rule but not with listed trusts like BRM - that is the whole idea with listed trusts that the manager has you by the short and curly for life. You want out, you do so at the sp.

So if you want out of BRM now, 62 cents is your exit price.

Meanwhile, the manager continues to clip the ticket and weeps gently into the caviar and champagne. :D

[Joshuatree]

Great entry imo :t_up: exit later , know when to hold them know when to fold them, know who's holding the 2 headed coin.

[Xerof]

I think Balance's bone of contention is the amount of fees these people have taken despite substandard funds performance, and what's worse, this was 'disguised' in the early days by using capital to pay dividends. It really was disgusting behaviour, but thats what you get when you put lipstick on a pig.

FWIW, I agree with Balance on Fisher - I retain my barge pole.

[Joshuatree]

and maybe the $kiwi is weakening atm, that would ne a bonus:D

[winner69]

When Barramundi newsletter says Total Shareholder Return since inception (Oct 2006) is 11.2% accumulated I assume the 11.2% is not a pa figure but that for every buck you put in you have $1.11 after 7 1/2 years

Seeing they reinvest the money they give you back to come up with that $1.11 doesn't seem much of an investment over that time frame.

I assume I am correct about that accumulated intepretation

[Joshuatree]

If folks read lizards FACTUAL post a few threads back re fee structure comparisons fees look inline with most other funds and you can find many that have under performed over various timeframes.If one bought BRM on listing they may not have performed well .Each person has to make their own decisions re if and when to buy each based on their own unique position. The timing is good for me personally right now as i need more income.

[nextbigthing]

NTA means nothing in the real world unless you can cash out at that NTA.

You can do that with unlisted unit trusts as a general rule but not with listed trusts like BRM - that is the whole idea with listed trusts that the manager has you by the short and curly for life. You want out, you do so at the sp.

So if you want out of BRM now, 62 cents is your exit price.

Meanwhile, the manager continues to clip the ticket and weeps gently into the caviar and champagne. :D

Thanks Balance.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that shareprice only matters if it is irrational. Ie if it deserves to be at $2 (eg $2 per share of assets) but is only 62c then who cares, it has done well. However Winner showed us that the shareprice is rational at the moment - trading at the usual average discount to NAV. Therefore is guess you're right Balance, in real terms it has gone from $1 to $.62 meaning capital has simply paid the dividends and fees with a miserable 11% left over after all those years. That is a terrible result!

Can anybody correct this or is it correct already?

Joshua tree I appreciate your need to change to income stocks but surely if they're just paying you your own capital as dividends wouldn't it be better to go somewhere else?! What are your thoughts?

NBT

[JayRiggs]

I was at the BRM shareholder meeting a couple of years ago. At the time, BRM was around 62-63c.
During the QA session, a shareholder expressed concern about how low the share price was compared to the $1 IPO and asked when we're getting back to $1.
Frank Jaspers response was something along the lines of...
"If you include dividends over the years, then we are breakeven at $1 thereabouts".

So that's Fisher Fund's justification. Include dividends into the return and everything is sweet!

[Joshuatree]

People are o bsessed re the $1 issue way back. Im only int in now for me..Timimg is everything who knows if I'm right or wrong but I'm happy @61c for my first shoal.Who knows when i sell again I'm hoping to get good income andc make abit on these/p for reasons I've already expressed with the caveat are the mkts going to correct big time soon. Gensis looks more defensive plus a big div I've applied for heaps. Had laser on eye today so not sorry re grammar.

[winner69]

I was at the BRM shareholder meeting a couple of years ago. At the time, BRM was around 62-63c.
During the QA session, a shareholder expressed concern about how low the share price was compared to the $1 IPO and asked when we're getting back to $1.
Frank Jaspers response was something along the lines of...
"If you include dividends over the years, then we are breakeven at $1 thereabouts".

So that's Fisher Fund's justification. Include dividends into the return and everything is sweet!

Not just include them in the calcs .....but assume they are reinvested as well

[BIRMANBOY]

So you are even more one-eyed than usual JT?:) I'll increase the font size so you can see it better...everybody else reverse the procedure please. You're right JT...some people seem to have made the naïve assumption that BRM SP should have gone up from issue price......because well...you know...that's what shares are supposed to do right??? C'mon, we all have purchased shares that have gone down below what we paid for them. The list of such evil doers is long and at some points even the best of companies or shares have plumbed the nether regions. Why should BRM be any different? Buy it at the right time after some study and tracking its performance and you increase your chances of it being a winner for you. Timing is everything...trouble is no-one can time these things to perfection. Simply put those who buy at the right time are happy and those that don't whinge. Everybody colours things by their own experience. Reality is that very few investors are interested or GAF about how someone else views things. We read but do not comprehend. JT You have a lot of people joining you today who think as you do. Looks good to me too. To all those living in the past you have a choice....if you are still holding (yeh right) you could choose to lower your average cost by buying more at a lower price or move on to a more productive use of your time. May the force be with you.
People are o bsessed re the $1 issue way back. Im only int in now for me..Timimg is everything who knows if I'm right or wrong but I'm happy @61c for my first shoal.Who knows when i sell again I'm hoping to get good income andc make abit on these/p for reasons I've already expressed with the caveat are the mkts going to correct big time soon. Gensis looks more defensive plus a big div I've applied for heaps. Had laser on eye today so not sorry re grammar.

[zigzag]

Don't have BRM, but I did buy into MLN about 18 months ago, and it's working out really well so far. One thing that Snapiti has not mentioned was the food at the AGM. Of all the meetings I have attended, this was the best feed by far. In fact it was so good, I may take a doggy bag next year. I'm assuming that BRM shareholders got the same treatment. Like they say, the quickest way to an investors heart….??? Well probably through his wallet, but good food works for me.

[Joshuatree]

Hey zigzag take balance along ' s/he will be your doggy bag and bubble guzzler and who knows his/her dreams may come true; Carmel may stick her tongue in his/her ear:t_up:(worst nightmare more prob)

[Joshuatree]

HeeHEe i like that BB. Best wishes with the painterly wife and your allergy I'm convinced another masterpiece will be forthcoming . Gazooks should be in the lounge, drinks on me and a yard glass for guess who.:blink:

[BIRMANBOY]

See what I mean...they read but they do not comprehend.
Hey Birmanboy,

Sure it's not a growth stock and as such the shareprice hasn't gone up. Fair enough.

But 11% accumulated return over 7 years and paying dividends from capital, that's TERRIBLE!

Numerically, how can you justify purchasing this?

Cheers,

NBT

[BIRMANBOY]

Look at Post #370 that may help you understand how different people look at the same thing in different ways.
All you have said is that timing is everything. Sure.

I'm asking you to justify nunerically why you believe the timing is right for BRM now, or basically any other time other than a Snapitis entry point which was very well timed. At this stage any other entry point looks like a disaster.

In the interests of learning for all us younger players, do you care to post something of substance to support your view like Winner and Balance have kindly done? Because at this stage it's looking like a terrible investment. Prove me wrong!

Cheers,

NBT

[BIRMANBOY]

LOL you're giving up?? After 10 minutes? It takes me longer than that to put my socks on.....However I appreciate your suggestion and I will certainly give it the consideration it deserves. PS ..luck has very little /next to nothing to do with long term investing so hope your research/learning continues the way you want it to.
OK. I give up. Fill your boots. But I'd suggest looking a little deeper into this one.

Good luck,

NBT

[nextbigthing]

...... I will certainly give it the consideration it deserves...... ...... hope your research/learning continues the way you want it to.......

Thanks BB. It's going ok. I'm enjoying it and doing well. Cheers.

Here's some factual things I think are worth considering.

BRM started paying a regular dividend in Sep 2009 (http://www.barramundi.co.nz/barramundi-performance/)

The NAV of BRM has gone from approx 85c in Sept 2009 to 71c in Feb 2014, as per the NAV History link on that same page. A decrease of 14c.

During that period they have paid approx 30c in dividends (same initial link).

So 30c dividends minus 14c in capital value loss leaves a 16c overall gain for the period (of approx 4.5 years).

16c / 4.5 years = 3.5c effective return P.A. per share.

So if you had purchased the shares at this time (2009), the historical price was around 75c.

3.5c / 75c = 4.7% return.

Hardly spectacular IMHO. I have no doubt you could do better yourself BB!

Taking the situation a few years back to the initial price of $1 only makes it worse as you add many more years but only one extra 2c dividend payout.

As you say, timing is everything. Snapiti has done very well getting in at 37c. He is one of few though (well done Snapiti).

I'm happy to be proven wrong - given this very average historical performance and no obvious change on the horizon, sticking to facts not opinion, what makes you say this is a buy right now?

Cheers,

NBT

PS I appreciated you've previously said that 62c is below the average price and therefore it's cheap. Winners post earlier showed it is trading at its usual discount to NAV and therefore it's technically not cheap, it's exactly the effective price it always is on average (relative to current NAV).

[JayRiggs]

A rather simplistic way of looking at why BRM has been a poor performer, I plugged all 18 stocks of the portfolio into Google finance and come up with a 1 year chart (see chart attached).
5656

It was going OK from February through to October, but since late October, it's down about 12%, while the ASX200 is up 0.6%, more or less sideways.
Sure this only shows equal weightings between all portfolio holdings, but you get the picture.

Quite simply, some of the holdings have just been pure stinkers for the past year.
CRH: -66.01%
MCP: -46.46%
MMS: -34.56%
NBL: -40.96%
TRS: -39.29%
UBI: -52.9%

[Balance]

Hey zigzag take balance along ' s/he will be your doggy bag and bubble guzzler and who knows his/her dreams may come true; Carmel may stick her tongue in his/her ear:t_up:(worst nightmare more prob)

So now we know the real reason why you bought BRM.

Nice one, Joshuatree.

PS. The managers drink real French champagne in Paris while you drink ?

[Joshuatree]

Lindauer Summer, great drop for a great price.Similar with BRM atpit(for me) but hope to be holding in my system a bit longer but who knows.

[Balance]

Lindauer Summer, great drop for a great price.Similar with BRM atpit(for me) but hope to be holding in my system a bit longer but who knows.

A man of outstanding taste - you are that and more :p

[Balance]

A rather simplistic way of looking at why BRM has been a poor performer, I plugged all 18 stocks of the portfolio into Google finance and come up with a 1 year chart (see chart attached).
5656

It was going OK from February through to October, but since late October, it's down about 12%, while the ASX200 is up 0.6%, more or less sideways.
Sure this only shows equal weightings between all portfolio holdings, but you get the picture.

Quite simply, some of the holdings have just been pure stinkers for the past year.
CRH: -66.01%
MCP: -46.46%
MMS: -34.56%
NBL: -40.96%
TRS: -39.29%
UBI: -52.9%

Good work, JayRiggs.

[Joshuatree]

Thanks :p Think they're a good match.Now for RYM id have an Elspeth Syrah Gimblett Gravels Reserve from our local Winery Mills Reef Estate. For Z energy id have a can of V and for rakon id suggest a litre of used fish and Chip vat fat. Horses for courses but sorry this should be in The lounge thread.

[Joshuatree]

Good work, JayRiggs.

Yes great sleuthing. I bailed out of MCP myself. It had a history of great divis but now is struggling to hold margins in the retail supply sector

[Toulouse - Luzern]

Hi
Thanks Balance and others for all your informative posts on this.
I agree with your information Balance
A few comments from my perspective.
May be in error and IMHO.

I held the underlying fund FFM Australian Growth for many years but exited this some time ago.
We all have options and for me there seemed better options.
Firstly they did perform well in their peer group and over many years and showed strong portfolio selection, management and performance.

Fisher Funds AGF hold only Aussie equities unlike other NZ Australasian funds that may have performed better and have a fair chunk in NZ equities (and may be overweight in NZ equities) that have performed better recently than Aussie equities.

I totally respect FFM professionalism and the undoubted effort that they have put in and that FFM are unlikely to ever comment on forum comments.

It seemed to me however that Fisher Fund AGF portfolio recently seemed to lack underlying strategy and yes "balance".
Too many recent sudden negative surprises for me, and uncertain responses to events.
Too many small losses became big losses, largely negating the better performers.
For me if you have to monitor a fund performance, and actions too closely, and you lose confidence in performance, then it is better for you to exit.
As a defensive strategy Fisher Fund AGF also appeared to me to consistently have a larger % in cash than I prefer.
I have my own Term deposits and bonds etc.
Noted that Fisher Funds have announced a recent change in portfolio manager.
Noted also that FF are a frequent buy back of BRM shares at the discount to NAV.

I certainly hope more patient investors will be rewarded with a positive upward move in the portfolio and wish them all the best with their investment.

[Balance]

hey Balance I have to ask you this because you seem to imply that if alot of poeple have gained little or lost money on the fisher funds so that in your opinion means they have to be a dog.
So does this mean all the following shares are dogs too because alot of money have lost money on them or are you just selective in your opinion.
Telecom high about$10 now @$2.40
telstra high about $12 now @ $5
DIL high about $8 now @ $4
NZR high about $18 now @$1.75
CNU high about$4 now @ $1.70
QAN high about $5 now @ $1.00
QBE high about $25 now @ $12
Plenty more of these sorts of stocks(too many to list)
Surely they cant all be dogs just because alot of poeple got the timing wrong and lost money.

Snapiti, some of them definitely qualify as dogs - how else would you describe Qantas or Telecom?

But more to the point is the track record of the management and the company of why it is a dog.

In Telecom's case, the billions of dollars they lost in their misadventures (especially in Australia) could have been better spent building the BEST communication infrastructure in the world. NZ$3 billion down the drain and left NZ decades behind in the rollout of UFB.

With Telecom, management was changed but alas too late for shareholders.

With BRM, you cannot change the management and it's job for life - heads they win, tails you lose. That's why it is a barking dog.

BTW, NZR had a share split a while ago so you might want to check that.

[Beagle]

Have to agree I am a big fan of Milfords.
They have alot of my money and they have performed very well but like for like in the time I have had BRM and KFL these funds have outperformed in over all terms when compared to the 2 funds I have money in with milford.
Does this make Milford a dog hmmmm I dont think so.
Or does this mean I am paying the Milford fund managers to much me thinks not.
Hell dont tell the fisher fund managers they have outperformed milford cause they will put their fee's up.

Any fund manager can fluke a good year or two by taking positions that eventually come off but its the long term track record of a fund manager that interests me, which is what shows whether they really have intelligent investment professionals that can consistently outperform the market.

Just out of interest to test your assertions, I went onto the Direct Broking website and using their supercharts I compared the performance of Barramundi for the last 3 years against the ASX all ordinaries index. Australian all ordinaries was up 8% and Carmel's team of investment "experts" are down 25% !!

ASX index excludes dividends so even when you take into account Barramundi's bizarre practice of paying taxable dividends out of capital, if we assume there's about a 5% difference between the taxable capital return Barramuni makes at 8% per annum and the average divvy yield on the ASX of 3% I calculate Barramundi have underperformed the benchmark Aussie index by approx 18% over that period of time, that's before you consider the tax people have to pay on their capital return which it could be argued is a deceptive practice.

You'd have been better off three years ago (by at least 18%) flying to Australia, buying a copy of the Australian financial review, bribing a Zoo keeper at the Sydney zoo to let you into the monkey enclosure and getting one of their monkeys to throw some darts at the ASX share page...and to think people pay them for their "professional" expertise LOL

[BIRMANBOY]

Since you are looking for facts..here is the most important one for you. My return (dividends) on capital invested (including brokerage) in BRM is averaging at 10.06% per year AFTER TAX has been deducted. Its also holding a capital gain for me. So my opinion is, as I said, coloured by my facts. If you choose the appropriate set of facts and package them in selected circumstances its possible to make even TRS look positively wonderful and Xero the safest investment you could ever find. I'm sure you and Balance et al are right (in your own minds) but that particular location is for you and isn't my desired habitat so I'll leave you to your own devices and investment strategies. Ignore the noise and count the dollars is my way. Also bear in mind that a capital loss is not actually realized until its actually sold. I've had investments that showed losses for ages and 90% have recovered. In the interim they have continued delivering dividends. Its a big picture and change is always happening. You have to find your own way.
Thanks BB. It's going ok. I'm enjoying it and doing well. Cheers.

Here's some factual things I think are worth considering.

BRM started paying a regular dividend in Sep 2009 (http://www.barramundi.co.nz/barramundi-performance/)

The NAV of BRM has gone from approx 85c in Sept 2009 to 71c in Feb 2014, as per the NAV History link on that same page. A decrease of 14c.

During that period they have paid approx 30c in dividends (same initial link).

So 30c dividends minus 14c in capital value loss leaves a 16c overall gain for the period (of approx 4.5 years).

16c / 4.5 years = 3.5c effective return P.A. per share.

So if you had purchased the shares at this time (2009), the historical price was around 75c.

3.5c / 75c = 4.7% return.

Hardly spectacular IMHO. I have no doubt you could do better yourself BB!

Taking the situation a few years back to the initial price of $1 only makes it worse as you add many more years but only one extra 2c dividend payout.

As you say, timing is everything. Snapiti has done very well getting in at 37c. He is one of few though (well done Snapiti).

I'm happy to be proven wrong - given this very average historical performance and no obvious change on the horizon, sticking to facts not opinion, what makes you say this is a buy right now?

Cheers,

NBT

PS I appreciated you've previously said that 62c is below the average price and therefore it's cheap. Winners post earlier showed it is trading at its usual discount to NAV and therefore it's technically not cheap, it's exactly the effective price it always is on average (relative to current NAV).

[nextbigthing]

Since you are looking for facts..here is the most important one for you. My return (dividends) on capital invested (including brokerage) in BRM is averaging at 10.06% per year AFTER TAX has been deducted. Its also holding a capital gain for me. So my opinion is, as I said, coloured by my facts. If you choose the appropriate set of facts and package them in selected circumstances its possible to make even TRS look positively wonderful and Xero the safest investment you could ever find. I'm sure you and Balance et al are right (in your own minds) but that particular location is for you and isn't my desired habitat so I'll leave you to your own devices and investment strategies. Ignore the noise and count the dollars is my way. Also bear in mind that a capital loss is not actually realized until its actually sold. I've had investments that showed losses for ages and 90% have recovered. In the interim they have continued delivering dividends. Its a big picture and change is always happening. You have to find your own way.

It's good to hear it has worked for you BB. It's great that you're up and happy with your investment.

As someone else said to me, it's about what they do in the future that matters anyway. Hopefully they can turn the NAV trend around.

Cheers,

NBT

[nextbigthing]

Here's a graph taken directly from the Barramundi website.

5661
Cheers,

NextBigThing

[nextbigthing]

......using capital to pay dividends.....


I'm not wanting to start any members on a rant here, this is a genuine question for someone more clued up on the rules than I...

Is paying dividends from capital not illegal - isn't that a ponzi scheme? What distinguishes between the two to allow it?

Genuine replies only please, keep it clean!

Cheers,

NBT

[Beagle]

It is not illegal but it is incredibly inefficient from a taxation perspective.
It is "at best" extremly disingenious in that it implies that BRM can pay 8% per annum dividend over the long run without any capital erosion.
Seems convienient Snapiti that you're making a 5 year comparison seeing as the bottom of the market was March 2009.
Claims Carmel's team of dart throwers beats Milford on average is something I simply don't believe.
Prove it !!
Do you work for them ?

[nextbigthing]

http://milfordasset.com/performance/fund-performance/

I haven't been through and accessed the NAV's for each one to see what they're up to.

[winner69]

BRM is a closed-end fund, ie no redemptions

This means they don't need to carry a cash float for redemptions and can remain fully invested whenever they desire.

Maybe hold more cash when the markets are going down but when the markets are going up one would hope fully invested

By paying dividends and other capital returns BRM to a large extent have reduced the capital they have to invest, lost opportunity I reckon.

NBT - have you looked at their annual accounts and read some of the notes ... might give you a better idea of how things work.

Look at the balance sheet and see what the accumulated losses figure

[nextbigthing]

NBT - have you looked at their annual accounts and read some of the notes

Yeah. http://www.barramundi.co.nz/uploads///Barramundi-Interim-Report-2013.pdf

Some interesting statements in there.

[Lizard]

I'm normally not a fan of companies that pay divs out of capital. However, as I argued some time ago on the MLN thread, in this case I find it quite useful (I hold MLN, not BRM).

I don't consider BRM or MLN as a share in itself, but as a managed fund. In my view, managed funds are a shortcut for the bits of your portfolio you don't want to spend a lot of time on and are willing to pay someone else to spend the time. For those that invest in managed funds via some kind of platform or adviser, using MLN may be no more efficient than any of the other funds available. However, for those who don't want to pay for an adviser or platform on top of their management fee, MLN (and BRM/KFL) is easy to buy and sell on-line and offers the tax advantages of a PIE structure. Furthermore, for the large proportion of investors that draw down against their portfolio, a regular, reliable high dividend yield is ideal. Yes, it may come out of capital to some extent when annual returns are below the 8% returned but this SHOULD over time become income-smoothing rather than depleting - having listed at the peak doesn't help.

Try keeping a semi-consistent income while having your share portfolio tied up in the usual selection of low/no dividend funds and you would have to make quarterly sales of small parcels to get the same cashflow - a move which is probably both time consuming, impractical and possibly expensive.

Overall, I think there is a niche for this model. I'll be disappointed if Fisher Funds are ever influenced by the critics to drop the dividend policy in exchange for a lower or more fluctuating model. If you don't need the dividend for income, take the DRP and get the re-investment growth in your holding that way.

The one set of complaints I can relate to is whether their share-picking ability is any better than average. Though in the short term, enough discount to NAV can cover a few mistakes...

[percy]

It would appear to me an investor would have been better off leaving their money earning interest in the bank.
Their $1 of capital would still be worth $1 not 62 cents [BRM share price] and they would have had steady dividends.
It confirms to me most managed funds are best avoided at issue.

[winner69]

If BRM believed in themselves and thought they were guru investors who could make above average returns one would think they would want as much money as possible to play with .....more money making even more money

But they keep giving some cash back (the rest of divies are paper money by issuing shares) so the investable amount is reduced.

I'd prefer to see a manager making heaps out of a ever growing fund (after all it is a closed fund so no redemptions)

[winner69]

not everyone is so arrogant to believe themselves to be guru's. Fisher fundS are just trying to offer an alternative.
H
Not quite with you snapiti


Quote - The aim of Barramundi is to offer investors competitive returns through capital growth and dividends, and access to a diversified portfolio of investments through a single tax-efficient investment vehicle

I would have thought that competitive returns (whatever that means in reality) is what punters are after. I am also pretty sure that barramundi managers would be disappointed in themselves (maybe not money wise but at least ego/pride wise) if they didn't achieve this.

Even you snapiti try to invest in the best of breed. You have done well with your timing with barramundi but I am sure that you would have deserted them I they weren't meeting your expectations.

[nextbigthing]

Quote - The aim of Barramundi is to offer investors competitive returns through capital growth and dividends, and access to a diversified portfolio of investments through a single tax-efficient investment vehicle


Interestingly the way the have set it up (paying dividends from capital and taxing capital when paid as a dividend) is almost exactly the opposite to their mission statement above.

[nextbigthing]

It would appear to me an investor would have been better off leaving their money earning interest in the bank.
Their $1 of capital would still be worth $1 not 62 cents [BRM share price] and they would have had steady dividends.
It confirms to me most managed funds are best avoided at issue.

Advocates would argue that they've been paid 32c in dividends in that time so all is well Percy. Apparently they read but they don't comprehend...

[winner69]

One last post

FY12 BRM income $1710k and management fees/performances fees paid $1052k. Some 60% income paid out management fees

FY13 income $20982k / fees $2115k .....only 10% income in fees

Nalances heads we win tails you lose

[Lizard]

It would appear to me an investor would have been better off leaving their money earning interest in the bank.
Their $1 of capital would still be worth $1 not 62 cents [BRM share price] and they would have had steady dividends.
It confirms to me most managed funds are best avoided at issue.

Bit harsh Percy, since (as many have pointed out), the $1 start point going into the GFC is a harsh start point for any equity investment... here's a share price comparison with the Smartfund, mid cap aussie index, MZY:

5664

This doesn't appear to be adjusted for dividends (unfavourable to BRM with the much higher yield), but still shows BRM as performing similarly to an NZ-based index fund for similar equity type.

For further comparison, here are a few "blue chip" NZ stocks over the same period (or at least were at the time):
5665

Probably a better return overall investing in a basket of blue chips, but the individual picks can be a lot more volatile than a fund... bit of a problem if you're having to keep selling a few for income. Besides, not everyone wants a part time job in investing as part of their retirement plan.

It is fine that most ShareTraders wouldn't touch BRM - the target market for BRM is NOT people that are active enough in the markets to read and post on share trading forums. Nor is it probably Financial Advisers that are set up to provide a client with regular drawdowns from capital and collect their own fees accordingly.

[nextbigthing]

I'm normally not a fan of companies that pay divs out of capital. However, as I argued some time ago on the MLN thread, in this case I find it quite useful (I hold MLN, not BRM).

I don't consider BRM or MLN as a share in itself, but as a managed fund. In my view, managed funds are a shortcut for the bits of your portfolio you don't want to spend a lot of time on and are willing to pay someone else to spend the time. For those that invest in managed funds via some kind of platform or adviser, using MLN may be no more efficient than any of the other funds available. However, for those who don't want to pay for an adviser or platform on top of their management fee, MLN (and BRM/KFL) is easy to buy and sell on-line and offers the tax advantages of a PIE structure. Furthermore, for the large proportion of investors that draw down against their portfolio, a regular, reliable high dividend yield is ideal. Yes, it may come out of capital to some extent when annual returns are below the 8% returned but this SHOULD over time become income-smoothing rather than depleting - having listed at the peak doesn't help.

Try keeping a semi-consistent income while having your share portfolio tied up in the usual selection of low/no dividend funds and you would have to make quarterly sales of small parcels to get the same cashflow - a move which is probably both time consuming, impractical and possibly expensive.

Overall, I think there is a niche for this model. I'll be disappointed if Fisher Funds are ever influenced by the critics to drop the dividend policy in exchange for a lower or more fluctuating model. If you don't need the dividend for income, take the DRP and get the re-investment growth in your holding that way.

The one set of complaints I can relate to is whether their share-picking ability is any better than average. Though in the short term, enough discount to NAV can cover a few mistakes...


Good post Lizard. Great to see some reasoned comments more in BRM's defense.

You make a valid point regarding it being a kind of niche and that the consistency of the dividends is important to some people. The model would obviously work long term if they achieved even just average returns. So far they have failed to do this, but hopefully they can turn it around in the future, get the the price back up to or above a dollar and continue to pay consistent dividends.

Cheers,

NBT

[nextbigthing]

It is fine that most ShareTraders wouldn't touch BRM - the target market for BRM is NOT people that are active enough in the markets to read and post on share trading forums. Nor is it probably Financial Advisers that are set up to provide a client with regular drawdowns from capital and collect their own fees accordingly.

That's the bit I find concerning though Lizard, they're targeting people who probably struggle to understand/have no interest in understanding the numbers (like you say, people that aren't on this site for example). These people think they're getting a great result when they see the 10% dividend each year. Then when they go to sell out, they get only a portion of their capital back which happens to be about the original amount minus the dividends they have received! And as Winner points out, with as much as 60% of income in management fees, that's terrible!!!

Hopefully they can turn it around!

[percy]

Advocates would argue that they've been paid 32c in dividends in that time so all is well Percy. Apparently they read but they don't comprehend...

How does the 32cents compare with what the investor would have received in interest on bank deposit. 7 years at say 4% a year,so 28 cents.Listed October 2007.
Today the investor would still be receiving interest on their $1 of capital, while the BRM at issue investor would be receiving a return on 62cents of capital!
So 4cents better of on dividends.Add that to 62cents SP =66cents.Capital lost$1.00 -66cents =34cents which means a loss of 34% of capital on issue price.
The answer I would like to know is how does BRM compare with an index fund with low fees?

[Lizard]

The answer I would like to know is how does BRM compare with an index fund with low fees?

Have a closer look at my chart in post #455 against the MOZY... this is the only similar alternative available to NZ investors and provides a much lower income stream. BRM has fallen slightly lower since launch, but that is more than covered by the higher yield. Also, I suspect the increased discount to NAV, as MZY doesn't carry much of a discount and BRM has seen theirs contribute to the s.p. decline since launch by at least 6%.

[Joshuatree]

BRM now 14.75% discount to my 61c buy. GO you Average thing you:)

[percy]

Have a closer look at my chart in post #455 against the MOZY... this is the only similar alternative available to NZ investors and provides a much lower income stream. BRM has fallen slightly lower since launch, but that is more than covered by the higher yield. Also, I suspect the increased discount to NAV, as MZY doesn't carry much of a discount and BRM has seen theirs contribute to the s.p. decline since launch by at least 6%.
Thanks Lizard.

[bull....]

BRM now 14.75% discount to my 61c buy. GO you Average thing you:)

The bigger the discount the bigger the fee

[bull....]

I havnt really had a look at this company but some of your comments pose interesting points, if they do pay divs out of capital at times or all the time? then you as shareholders are actually losing because the asset base is being eroded, unless they enjoy positive returns each yr to afford this which appears not to be the case.
They obviously cant sustain this forever which would mean investors will get caught out at some stage.

[Balance]

I havnt really had a look at this company but some of your comments pose interesting points, if they do pay divs out of capital at times or all the time? then you as shareholders are actually losing because the asset base is being eroded, unless they enjoy positive returns each yr to afford this which appears not to be the case.
They obviously cant sustain this forever which would mean investors will get caught out at some stage.

The lower the sp, the higher the historical 'dividend' yield paid out of capital.

The more excited some punters get about the high 'dividend' yield.

Get the picture?

[Joshuatree]

3.2% gain for a few days holding and the discount may start to narrow a bit more with the $NZ a little weaker.Off to a good start . But such a short time frame not really relevant in the scheme of things. If you have a look at The pie funds newsletter I've posted today they have performed way better longer term and i have much more exposure there than here.

P.S Sparky is on the Fonterra thread!!!

[Beagle]

I'm yet to be convinced that getting the aforementioned monkeys to throw darts at a copy of the ASX page in the Australian Financial review isn't a substaintially better alternative and quite apart from that monkey food doesn't cost millions of dollars in fees every year.
Who's really paying for the fancy food at their AGM's ?
As for paying tax on the dimished capital that's been returned to investors as dividends, the fact that these "investment professionals" came up with this rocket science scheme speaks volumes.

[Balance]

I'm yet to be convinced that getting the aforementioned monkeys to throw darts at a copy of the ASX page in the Australian Financial review isn't a substaintially better alternative and quite apart from that monkey food doesn't cost millions of dollars in fees every year.
Who's really paying for the fancy food at their AGM's ?
As for paying tax on the dimished capital that's been returned to investors as dividends, the fact that these "investment professionals" came up with this rocket science scheme speaks volumes.

Don't worry, we have the FMA with real teeth now, not the tiger who took out its dentures everynight, to put a stop to this blatant breach of common sense.

If only ....

[Eclipse]

Completely agree with this thread, BRM is only good if you timed it right in getting into the market.
Now the only question is timing an exit.
Disc hold 130k shares

[zigzag]

Completely agree with this thread, BRM is only good if you timed it right in getting into the market.
Now the only question is timing an exit.
Disc hold 130k shares

I'd say that the current price would be a good entry point, rather than an exit. Like I've already said, I only hold MLN, so not so familiar with BRM, but assume it works along the same lines. 130k shares is a fair whack to have in such an investment trust.

[777]

When contributors refer to managers as monkeys I lose interest in anything else they contribute. Another for my ignore list.

I now have two and they are both on this page.

[arc]

So BRM, MLN, KFL are all managed by Fisher Funds. Does anyone here know if they apply the same methodology of canabilising the working capital to all these "Funds".

[Balance]

Monkeys throwing darts at a the top 50 stocks in each of the markets BRM, KFL or MLN invest in would have definitely done better.

And you only need to feed them peanuts and bananas.

Mind you, some here seem to like the leftovers from the top table each AGM so the poor monkeys cannot possibly win this battle.

[Eclipse]

Well said Balance, however if said darts are trading at a discount to market, and when you can look at the value of the underlying companies that also at times are under-priced then this has the probability of outweighing the peanuts and banana's we are feeding them.

I'd say it's hard to predict the short term and long term with what they can choose to add/subtract from the portfolio at the prices that seem illogical to exit the market at. But in the medium term when the holdings of the company are predominately consistent then there is a bit of money to be had; which seems good for a park of some cash whilst working out the next investment to look into compared to the bank.

I'd hate to be one of the people who used this as a true investment and went in at the start.

[shonen knife]

I'd hate to be one of the people who used this as a true investment and went in at the start.

I keep on getting tempted by the dividend but then that temptation soon withers away when I come back to this thread. They seem to be buying back a lot of their shares, would they be doing this if it was a house of cards?

[nextbigthing]

I keep on getting tempted by the dividend but then that temptation soon withers away when I come back to this thread. They seem to be buying back a lot of their shares, would they be doing this if it was a house of cards?

I was the same, the dividend looks great but when you scratch the surface it's scary.

There's better options out there. Take a look at Birmanboys website for some other ideas. Dividendyield.co.nz

[shonen knife]

I was the same, the dividend looks great but when you scratch the surface it's scary.

There's better options out there. Take a look at Birmanboys website for some other ideas. Dividendyield.co.nz

I believe that's the site where I 'discovered' Barramundi. Really wish he would update the website to something with a more modern feel...

[nextbigthing]

I believe that's the site where I 'discovered' Barramundi. Really wish he would update the website to something with a more modern feel...

Perhaps a modern cat theme Birmanboy? Like grumpy cat. http://www.grumpycats.com/memes/

[BIRMANBOY]

Oh...oh.. oh..cut me with your knife you ungrateful wretch. Thats a 'structured" design which is purposefully arranged to feel comfortable for "non-modern" folk. You know..the types of conservative individuals, or, dare I say it...older folk who understand that that the banks give SFA and the share market is littered with the desiccated corpses of "investors" who thought they could certainly do better than all the other investors who had lost money previously...because ..you know they were up with times and MODERN.:p
I believe that's the site where I 'discovered' Barramundi. Really wish he would update the website to something with a more modern feel...

[BIRMANBOY]

Rumour has it that Cat sites are a close second in search rankings to porn sites. Grumpy cats, as much as I love all cats are just a distraction from the real purpose in life. .........Which is, he asks? Making money....so you can keep your felines, pampered, fed to their requirements, nurtured and provided with the best vet care available. There's an old saying NBT, which you would be wise to heed. Dogs have owners and cats have staff. Regardless, thanks for your worthy suggestion and I appreciate your referencing the site.
Perhaps a modern cat theme Birmanboy? Like grumpy cat. http://www.grumpycats.com/memes/

[shonen knife]

Oh...oh.. oh..cut me with your knife you ungrateful wretch. Thats a 'structured" design which is purposefully arranged to feel comfortable for "non-modern" folk. You know..the types of conservative individuals, or, dare I say it...older folk who understand that that the banks give SFA and the share market is littered with the desiccated corpses of "investors" who thought they could certainly do better than all the other investors who had lost money previously...because ..you know they were up with times and MODERN.:p

hahahaha please accept my humble apology...but please do contact me if you ever need any modern help :P

[BIRMANBOY]

Your humbleness is duly noted and you have henceforth been removed from the disgruntled p***ks database:). If you are bilingual Mandarin/English writer speaker listener we need some help (voluntary unpaid unfortunately), but otherwise its probably hell freezing over...but thanks.
hahahaha please accept my humble apology...but please do contact me if you ever need any modern help :P

[winner69]

You guys are doing well

BRM discount to NAV down to a miserly 5% ....good effort

Guru managers would now say really overvalued at these levels on a z-score basis

But guru managers are usually really dumb anyway

[Joshuatree]

Yess:) I'm up 6.5% at pit, not bad for a 'disaster" lol

[BIRMANBOY]

There is some heavy buying stacked up here...800,000 odd...more than is usual for this share. If you bought at 61 or 62 recently you will be feeling good.

[Joshuatree]

"I feel gooood" in a james Brown kinda way , tomorrow who knows; ferreting for 2nd hand pizzas? I was in my 61st year when i bought them for 61c:) Synchronicity and thanks again balance:)

[Joshuatree]

BRM ex my first div,:D feeling like a virgin;franked for the very first time.

[BIRMANBOY]

You bought at the perfect time JT... its only rarely it gets down that low ...Papa (must be Balance) don't preach!

Papa don't preach, I'm in trouble deep(not)
Papa don't preach, I've been losing sleep(too much breaking bad)
But I made up my mind, I'm keeping my BRM, oh
I'm gonna keep my baby, mmm...


BRM ex my first div,:D feeling like a virgin;franked for the very first time.

[JayRiggs]

Good to see BRM trading at 65-66c, even after going ex-div.
Keen to accumulate in the low 60s if it gets there.

Manuel Greenland has been portfolio manager since April. From their latest quarterly newsletter, they have sold off MMS and MCP. And from the looks of their June monthly newsletter, they have bought into CCL - Cocacola Amatil.

[winner69]

I see the NAV is down this week to 68.91 leaving current price at only 4% discount to NAV

[percy]

Good to see BRM trading at 65-66c, even after going ex-div.
Keen to accumulate in the low 60s if it gets there.

Manuel Greenland has been portfolio manager since April. From their latest quarterly newsletter, they have sold off MMS and MCP. And from the looks of their June monthly newsletter, they have bought into CCP - Cocacola Amatil.

CCP is not Cocacola Amatil whose code is CCL.
CCP is an old Fisher Fund favourite Credit Corp.

[JayRiggs]

CCP is not Cocacola Amatil whose code is CCL.
CCP is an old Fisher Fund favourite Credit Corp.
Thanks for pointing that out. Getting my CCs mixed up!

[winner69]

Thanks for pointing that out. Getting my CCs mixed up!

They have both in their portfolio though

And Percy they are really keen on CCP .... they rather imaginatively said Credit Corp should be well positioned

[lambton]

I see the NAV is down this week to 68.91 leaving current price at only 4% discount to NAV

4% discount, must be balanced towards a sell IMO

[percy]

They have both in their portfolio though

And Percy they are really keen on CCP .... they rather imaginatively said Credit Corp should be well positioned

Did they say the same in 2007,buying at the top [$12] and then holding to the bottom [50 cents]? Or did they reposition their portfolio and sell them at the bottom?

[Joshuatree]

4% discount, must be balanced towards a sell IMO With our int rates going up exchange rate reversion may have an effect on s/p /discount too.

[winner69]

4% discount, must be balanced towards a sell IMO

Closest it been to NAV for some time

The insto guideline is a Z=score and this signals a sell as well

[winner69]

BRM ex my first div,:D feeling like a virgin;franked for the very first time.

Well done JT .... you must be feeling ecstatic and on the hunt for more

Remember what Carmel says -- YOU MUST REINVEST THESE DIVIDENDS.

If you don't your TSR wont be the same as how she calculates it for you

Promise you will reinvest

[winner69]

Did they say the same in 2007,buying at the top [$12] and then holding to the bottom [50 cents]? Or did they reposition their portfolio and sell them at the bottom?

But they do occasionally get mean and publicly say management of one of their investee companies are crap

Quote from Monthly Report = Barramundi’s relative under performance in May is largely due to Universal Biosensors’ share price collapsing after management announced the terms of an agreement to sell their core OneTouch Verio business at an exceptionally disadvantageous price. We deem this a permanent impairment of capital and now question both the competence and integrity of Universal Biosensors’ management. We have significantly reduced our position in the stock.

Bugger. Must be hard to take because they make a big thing out of having indepth discussions with management and often remind us that they only invest in companies they have confidence in the management team. That's why you pays the management fee

UBI was over 50 cents a few months ago, now under 20 cents

[lambton]

Closest it been to NAV for some time

The insto guideline is a Z=score and this signals a sell as well

Interesting and thanks.

[Joshuatree]

Roughly a 4c drop in our $ recently with a slight recovery from int rate increase.

[Joshuatree]

Good point . And of Top 5 stocks, 2 are down 2 up and 1 flat. For other stocks they've highlighted in newsletter yest 2 stocks up 3 down, 1 biosenses by 43%.

[winner69]

NAV down nearly 2% over last week

What's up?

[777]

The exchange rate is part of it.

[Okebw]

NAV down nearly 2% over last week

What's up?

Would it not be the portion of their assets cannibalised to pay the recent divie?

[winner69]

Would it not be the portion of their assets cannibalised to pay the recent divie?

Previous week had the dividend impact ....so down 2% since dividend

[nextbigthing]

Previous week had the dividend impact ....so down 2% since dividend

Management fees

:D

[Bob]

quarterly dividend just paid, no excluded income shown so PIE tax info shows total gross income. Last year 3 of the 4 quarters had excluded income. Does anyone know how this works?

[winner69]

quarterly dividend just paid, no excluded income shown so PIE tax info shows total gross income. Last year 3 of the 4 quarters had excluded income. Does anyone know how this works?

Barramundi explanation of statement -

Excluded income is the portion of the dividend that is not fully imputed and does not need to be included in your tax return. This excluded income is most likely to arise from the realised gains derived by Barramundi Limited that are not taxable.

http://www.barramundi.co.nz/uploads/NZ-resident-statement-100413.pdf

Help?

[winner69]

You guys not doing your bit for BRM

You have discount to NAV drift out to 10%

[winner69]

OMG - guru fund reports a loss in a year when The ASX reached record highs

Never mind ...... Carmel et al still get a decent cheque and you guys got some of your money back by way of divies

https://www.nzx.com/files/attachments/199162.pdf

[winner69]

Seem to be in the throes of playing safer and not taking these big punts they have in the past

Steady as she goes ....good for keeping those management fees rolling in ......may the gravy train keep chugging along for years to come.

[BIRMANBOY]

Keep em coming W69...surely you can do better. Been trying to buy for months but it never drops down below 62. You and Percy need to ratchet up the frequency and edge of your comments to a more shrill level please.:p
Seem to be in the throes of playing safer and not taking these big punts they have in the past

Steady as she goes ....good for keeping those management fees rolling in ......may the gravy train keep chugging along for years to come.

[Beagle]

What a DOG.

[BIRMANBOY]

Thanks Roger..appreciate your efforts...somewhat on the "short" side but all helps the cause.:rolleyes:
What a DOG.

[winner69]

Birman ....that 62 or less is just plain greedy. The NAV went up to 71 cents last week

Even Carmel et all couldn't justify that npv of future management fees is 9 cents a share .....pretty close to it though.

[winner69]

I'm just jealous I don't manage this DOG .....no fleas on the manager

[McGyro]

I purchased at $0.63 a few days ago, with a view to a medium to long term position (unless the price goes ballistic). Very happy at this price, given the dividend structure, potential for share price recovery, conservative rejigging of the portfolio and exposure to AUD/NZ exchange rate. Lets see what happens.......

[percy]

Keep em coming W69...surely you can do better. Been trying to buy for months but it never drops down below 62. You and Percy need to ratchet up the frequency and edge of your comments to a more shrill level please.:p

Don't give up BIRMANBOY you may still get them at 62cents.!!!
You face no buying competition from me.

[BIRMANBOY]

Envy is just so unbecoming....Carmel is worth every penny and you detractors should raise your consciousness above petty (and selfish) considerations and focus on the BIG picture which is the gross yield. Channel the negative envy and jealously into more productive causes and feel better.
I'm just jealous I don't manage this DOG .....no fleas on the manager

[percy]

I purchased at $0.63 a few days ago, with a view to a medium to long term position (unless the price goes ballistic). Very happy at this price, given the dividend structure, potential for share price recovery, conservative rejigging of the portfolio and exposure to AUD/NZ exchange rate. Lets see what happens.......

Unfortunately,or fortunately some of us have a fair idea about what will happen.!!
Although BRM managed to lose money this year in Aussie,it is worth noting my Aussie picks in the Aussie competition are up 47.03% and I am only fourth.!!

[BIRMANBOY]

Oh golly gosh...Percy you have gazed into the future and seen the truth. Pray tell....just for the record, what did that look like?
Unfortunately,or fortunately some of us have a fair idea about what will happen.!!

[percy]

Oh golly gosh...Percy you have gazed into the future and seen the truth. Pray tell....just for the record, what did that look like?

My altered post above gives a very clear picture.Up 47.03% yes 47.03%..........What a lovely picture.Just for the record!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BIRMANBOY]

Ok for the record...well that seems to be in the PAST Percy....you said you "had a fair idea about what will happen" ...that seems to indicate some knowledge of the FUTURE. Or is the past, present and future just blurring together somehow. Is Percy the new Timelord perhaps?
My altered post above gives a very clear picture.Up 47.03% yes 47.03%..........What a lovely picture.Just for the record!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Beagle]

Unfortunately,or fortunately some of us have a fair idea about what will happen.!!
Although BRM managed to lose money this year in Aussie,it is worth noting my Aussie picks in the Aussie competition are up 47.03% and I am only fourth.!!

Carmel should subcontract to Percy, cut him in for 10% of the fee and the fund would do so well they could spawn little Barramundi's out of it :)

Some great comedy here to finish the day off including from one that think dividends paid out of capital losses are an attractive aspect of this fund :)

[percy]

Ok for the record...well that seems to be in the PAST Percy....you said you "had a fair idea about what will happen" ...that seems to indicate some knowledge of the FUTURE. Or is the past, present and future just blurring together somehow. Is Percy the new Timelord perhaps?
Exactly."Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them."
My history is easy to check.Aussie sharetrader competition 2012 2nd,2013 10th,2014 so far 4th. I have form!
BRM history is very poor [could say a history of mistakes].No reason to believe it will improve.

[percy]

Carmel should subcontract to Percy, cut him in for 10% of the fee and the fund would do so well they could spawn little Barramundi's out of it :)

Some great comedy here to finish the day off including from one that think dividends paid out of capital losses are an attractive aspect of this fund :)

Not keen on subcontracting,would prefer to be a consultant.!!
Can see the headline,"Fisher Funds have managed to secure world famous [in Sydenham], Percy as a consultant."
What would it do for BRM's share price?
Would BRM sell all their shares and invest the lot in Heartland?
Do you think Pie Funds may offer me more? lol.

[Beagle]

But if you're a consultant that might mean you have to schmooze with Carmel...is that a scary prospect LOL
I'd better go to dinner before I get myself in trouble :)

[percy]

But if you're a consultant that might mean you have to schmooze with Carmel...is that a scary prospect LOL
I'd better go to dinner before I get myself in trouble :)

Don't tell anyone but I used to really enjoy Carmel's Sunday Star Times column.Always gave good advice.Pity her staff did not appear to have read it,or follow it?!!! lol.

[winner69]

On Carmel's (sorry Fisher Funds) website this made me laugh

Didn't click through but I think the answer from a smiling Carmel is along the lines 'I know"

Jeez I jealous

And Balance is out having dinner with Carmel tonight (Balance is paying) so no Carmel jokes tomorrow please