TRA - Turners Automotive Group [previously TNR - Turners Limited]

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Might be a Fire sale of Strategic Finance as Allco try to get out of trouble

[COLIN]

Might be a Fire sale of Strategic Finance as Allco try to get out of trouble
I suspect that Jock Hobbs and his mates will just buy back the 50% they previously sold to Allco - for a great deal less than they sold it for. A great deal for them.

[Toddy]

Questions are now being asked of DPC.

Dorchester held $33m in cash or equivalent. Is this enough, I doubt it, $33m can be wiped out at the stroke of Helen and Cullens pen.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/home/column_article.asp?id=20610&cid=4&cname=Business%20Today

[Stranger_Danger]

I suspect that Jock Hobbs and his mates will just buy back the 50% they previously sold to Allco - for a great deal less than they sold it for. A great deal for them.

Nah, it was a crap deal for them. They got paid in Allco HIT shares.

[Toddy]

Interesting buying on market in DPC today.

Don't you mean interesting 'selling'. The sellers are in control of this stock.

[dsurf]

I thought CEO's were meant to support a company & industry. The bizarre board of DPC has picked the biggestclown I have heard of in a long time. Read the following response following a 16% reduction in the share price the preceding day. It would make me cry if I was a holder!

Mr Walker predicted the industry would shrink by half or more within two years or even virtually disappear.

He said finance companies needed to find alternative sources of funding from debentures.

He said in January that Dorchester's debenture reinvestment rate had fallen to around 40 per cent in December, which he said was "not bad".

Before the crisis, it had been 65-73 per cent across the industry.

"It's very simple mathematics. If it (the reinvestment rate) goes to zero and with average debentures 18 to 24 months, then in that time the industry won't exit.

"If the long-run reinvestment rate is 50 per cent, then the industry is going to halve."

He said banks were not really in a position to fill the void as "they have their own issues".

Many have lost billions in the US subprime mortgage market resulting in a credit crunch. In that environment they are loathe to lend and have lost their appetite for risk.

Raising money through equity markets is not an option, for similar reasons.

Mr Walker said he wouldn't be surprised to see more finance company collapses. Others will simply close shop.


Fire the clown please!

[Stranger_Danger]

Rather than "support a company or industry" I like CEO's that tell that truth.

The "clown" has said what he thinks and he is right. Unless things turn around for the finance companies, they *won't* exist.

If no one gives them money, then they have no money to give to other people. If this scenario lasts long enough, even a "clown" can figure out that there is no business left at the end of it.

[dsurf]

A scenario is just one possible outcome - yes doomsday is a scenario - hardly encourages the share price or potential equity injections via share or rights issues.

Actually I agree they should close the doors, sell the assets, return any surplus funds to shareholders.

Great strategic planning by the head of the company!

[COLIN]

I suspect that Jock Hobbs and his mates will just buy back the 50% they previously sold to Allco - for a great deal less than they sold it for. A great deal for them.

Just by way of correction, I now note that Allco later bought the remaining 50% of Strategic so that they are now sole owners.
If Allco is forced to sell they should be able to arouse some buying interest, even in today's market. Strategic is one of the sounder Finance Coys (one of the few on Chris Lee's A List, for instance) but it is going to be hard for even them to stem the tide of nervous investors not renewing, short of being taken over by a manifestly strong party.
(But all this should be under a separate thread, of course.)

[Steve]

I thought CEO's were meant to support a company & industry. The bizarre board of DPC has picked the biggestclown I have heard of in a long time. Read the following response following a 16% reduction in the share price the preceding day. It would make me cry if I was a holder! ...

He actually made this comment weeks ago, it has nothing to do with the big drop in the shareprice...

I must admit that I'm happy that Dorchester no longer owns Direct as I might have started getting a bit paraniod during the period between selling shares and receiving the cash in the bank.

[dsurf]

He actually made this comment weeks ago, it has nothing to do with the big drop in the shareprice...

I must admit that I'm happy that Dorchester no longer owns Direct as I might have started getting a bit paraniod during the period between selling shares and receiving the cash in the bank.

It is not important when he made the comments - it is important when investors read them and the decide to dell. He is creating the impression that DPC does not have a viable future. This is bizarre from a CEO!

[dsurf]

Yesterday, chief executive Andrew Walker said the company was focusing on preserving liquidity, aggressively realising assets and looking for sources of funding beyond the retail debenture market.

Analyst John Kidd, of McDouall Stuart, said the finance company situation appeared to be playing out along expected lines.

Large, secure companies with diverse funding sources were benefiting from attractive lending opportunities thrown up as less secure companies, particularly those overly reliant on retail debenture funding, struggled.

The outlook was looking increasingly grim for those firms unable to secure alternate funding from the likes of banks, who were themselves now more cautious about who they extended loans to due to the ongoing international credit crunch, said Kidd. "They're taking a very risk averse approach. Only the strongest companies will be able to secure bank lines."

Walker confirmed Dorchester was finding it difficult to secure alternate funding.

"You can imagine it's not the easiest job to diversify funding when the international debt markets are suffering a rather large correction." (excuses, excuses - lack of strategic planning!)

Brian Jolliffe, managing director of Pyne Gould Corporation, which owns finance company Marac, said that should have been a priority long before recent events unfolded.

"If diversification wasn't part of the funding strategy particularly in the last 12 or 18 months then the reality is that it's going to be extremely difficult in this marketplace to be able to put those alternatives in place now."

He confirmed Marac was enjoying increased profitability from new loans it was writing.

[bermuda]

I havent studied DPC but I was speaking to someone in the know who told me things are settling down but its hard when your enquiries have been knocked 60%.

Says it all I think

As they said in the latest report "Reduced Lending sees reduction in profit." Not too hard to work out in this environment.Get out.

[COLIN]

My prediction is that South Canterbury Finance will soon emerge as the dominant player. Alan Hubbard is one of the shrewdest businessmen around. He has stocked up with oodles of longer-term funding and banking lines, well before the storm hit.

[bermuda]

My prediction is that South Canterbury Finance will soon emerge as the dominant player. Alan Hubbard is one of the shrewdest businessmen around. He has stocked up with oodles of longer-term funding and banking lines, well before the storm hit.

Fully agree Hubbard is one of the shrewdest businessmen around. That why he and Churcher have 6.2million Roma Petroleum shares (ASX RPM ) which places them as the no.7 shareholder.

This little company has a very bright future, not too sure about DP though. Check RPM out. Big big upside.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Are Directors hoping to privatise this company slowly on the cheap

[Nitaa]

you are on to it... panning out a classic example of small shareholders missing out at the for the benefit of a select few.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Dr Who Not if they panic and sell like they are doing at moment. Then they might have to pay valuation for 1or2 percent of the shares. Liquidation might be something to consider.

[Nitaa]

It doesnt matter how low the sp goes, if there is a T/O they will have to pay valuation which should be close to NTA which is around $1.70 or there abouts. At current levels the company has market cap of around $22 million, hence trading below its cash holdings? Can someone confirm this please.Im no accountant so please excuse me if i dont make any sense. The problem i see with the company is cashflow. Your NTA that you are talking about doesnt clealry define the true value of the company. Simply because to company looks to have financial problems and by their own admission have a shrinking business. The ability to raise capital comes into question let alone the risk of laon defaulters. Valuation of their assets may and most probably likely are overstated.

The the tru value of the company is 1.70 per share then why is the current sp less than 50%. Something doesnt add up and forgive but finance companies that are making paper profits are going bankrupt. Is DPC next? maybe not but as i pointed out recently. I would have a big concern if HHG pulled their money out before the full term of their loan. It doesnt guarentee anything but does raise red flags.

I am still in the view that the average shareholder will get screwed and a select few will be their to mop up and make a small killing.

only my view and i hope i am completely off the mark

[lewinsky]

I am curious as to why one of the directors is buying shares. I also wonder what the share price would be if he wasn't buying.
If you look at this business, the finance company isn't lending. The investment advisary business is being sold. They have left a Reverse Annuity Mortgage business that has a limited market. They have a savings scheme that isn't linked to Kiwisaver. The insurance business i believe was tied in to the car market.
The profit downgrade means the only profit earned this year was from the sale of the Dorchester Building.
Where is there a strategy??
The loans made by the two shareholders have been repaid.
The only activity for DPC appears to be repaying debenture holders.
And yet one of the Directors is buying shares.........................mmmmmm

LEW

[Nitaa]

I am predicting DPC life expectancy to last 6 months tops in its current format. From "sources" unnamed DPC are suffering from lack of investors which under the current economic climate is not hard to understand why.

Why is a director buying shares? Either one to instill confidence in the market or 2 is that he believes it is a good investment or both.

discl. I am no expert and information i have is only through a 3rd party. Please do your own research rather than believe a single word from someone on this thread like myself

[baxter]

NITA... The 25% shareholding in St. Laurence would make up a major part of that $1.70 NTA wouldn't it?

[lewinsky]

I note that St Laurence are having a rights issue of convertible notes that convert to ordinary shares in seven months time. The issue price is 70 cents converting to $1.
This would have to dilute Dorchesters holding I believe.
I can't see $1.70 NTA.
Company being run by a young Investment Banker with no experience in a bear market and a Board who appear to be sitting on their hands waiting for something to happen.
I will be interested to see how much further they fall.

[Snapper]

I note that St Laurence are having a rights issue of convertible notes that convert to ordinary shares in seven months time. The issue price is 70 cents converting to $1.
This would have to dilute Dorchesters holding I believe.
I can't see $1.70 NTA.
Company being run by a young Investment Banker with no experience in a bear market and a Board who appear to be sitting on their hands waiting for something to happen.
I will be interested to see how much further they fall.

The rights issue is for St Laurence Property & Finance not St Laurence itself. I hold SLPF and will be taking up the rights. The rights are priced at 70c with the SLPF NTA being around $1.40 (hopefully still $1.40ish) so it's a bit of a no-brainer.

[dsurf]

The rights issue is for St Laurence Property & Finance not St Laurence itself. I hold SLPF and will be taking up the rights. The rights are priced at 70c with the SLPF NTA being around $1.40 (hopefully still $1.40ish) so it's a bit of a no-brainer.

St Lawrence need the money to develop properties they already own - yeah right - they can't get tenants unless they do them up why else would they go to market for money at the worst time possible & at a huge discount.

Does DPC have the money to not be diluted - NO - they have huge cashflow issues themselves. So NTA will continue to fall - I wonder what the last reported NTA was for Bear Stearns, Blue Chip, Allco ..........

No brainer????

[dsurf]

Anyone got an opinion?

Given my total lack of belief in management I think they will be last in the queue as a last gasp desparate bid for survival so having checked out all The Guru's posts & knowing that a cataclysmic event is scheduled for Dec 08, I will pick Sept 17 2008.

[Snapper]

St Lawrence need the money to develop properties they already own - yeah right - they can't get tenants unless they do them up why else would they go to market for money at the worst time possible & at a huge discount.

Does DPC have the money to not be diluted - NO - they have huge cashflow issues themselves. So NTA will continue to fall - I wonder what the last reported NTA was for Bear Stearns, Blue Chip, Allco ..........

No brainer????

No brainer re SLPF not DPC. St laurence will be underwriting the issue which is an act of good faith.

[Nitaa]

I am a little bit surprised. To me it doesnt make sense for HG to get is loan money back unless he has serious concerns about the cash flow of DPC. I read the intial announcement that the load was for a specified term but gave HG the right to withdraw at any time. If DPC do not have a cash flow problem then the only other possible conclusion is they need the money for another investment.

Still warning bells if you ask methis was my quote on 3rrd March. In less than 3 weeks since that post dpc has lost around 30% of its share value.

Someone mentioned a possible rights issue for dpc over the last couple of days. If this is the case then my quote as above rings even more true.

The simple problem at the moment is noone is investing into finance company's. Without being misquoted, by that i mean that the general public are staying well away which imo can only lead to a further demise of dpc.

Anyone have any views on how dpc not only WILL but CAN turn it around?

[Dr_Who]

I dont know whats going on, but a director (Paul Anthony BYRNES) continues to mope up the shares on market. He is up to 516,376 shareholding now. I wouldnt think he would continue to buy stock if he doesnt believe in the company. Guess as you will, but I am sure Byrnes know more about the company than any of us here.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

DR Who because of this I am prepared to hold at large loss & buy more if it drops much more. Some of the DPC shares I have held since before the 1987 crash.

[Nitaa]

I dont know whats going on, but a director (Paul Anthony BYRNES) continues to mope up the shares on market. He is up to 516,376 shareholding now. I wouldnt think he would continue to buy stock if he doesnt believe in the company. Guess as you will, but I am sure Byrnes know more about the company than any of us here.He could also be putting himslef in a strong bargaining position down the track.. again at the expenses of small shareholders. at least its getting interesting

[Steve]

And despite this, the shareprice continues to drop...

[blackcap]

and interesting to note that their cash reserves are now more than their market capitalisation..... take from Chris Lee newsletter.

[Steve]

and interesting to note that their cash reserves are now more than their market capitalisation..... take from Chris Lee newsletter.

Suggesting that the market is expecting them to burn cash?!

[Hoop]

and interesting to note that their cash reserves are now more than their market capitalisation..... take from Chris Lee newsletter.
Could also suggest that the bear market cycle is further advanced within the small finance company sector as opposed to the general over market (NZX).
It is possible that the first signs that the NZX bear is dying, may arise within this sector (assuming bear cycle subsets{secondaries} are equal in length to the primary bear cycle).

If & when this may happen is any ones guess.

[Dr_Who]

and interesting to note that their cash reserves are now more than their market capitalisation..... take from Chris Lee newsletter.

Thats what I have been saying all along and are prepare to hold my DPC holdings and maybe, just maybe buy more. Will need to do more due diligence.

It jsut strikes me as odd that Byrnes cannot buy stock from VIK and have to buy on market. Maybe VIK has stop selling? 500k shareholding and growing is no small holding. Wonder how many shares he is looking to accummulate.

[COLIN]

and interesting to note that their cash reserves are now more than their market capitalisation..... take from Chris Lee newsletter.
That may not mean anything if they have to use those cash reserves to repay depositors. It says nothing about the recoverability of their loan exposures, or whether they have made adequate bad debt provisions.

[Nitaa]

That may not mean anything if they have to use those cash reserves to repay depositors. It says nothing about the recoverability of their loan exposures, or whether they have made adequate bad debt provisions.
This is quite correct. This is the big unknown is how significant are the "bad debts" Yes they will have to pay depositers that is coming up. Admittedly I have done almost no research on this company of late apart from viewing whats posting here.

What i can say is not surpisingly, very little people are investing into dpc into term deposits or cash on call type of accounts. Somewhere down the line this will bite and bite very hard.

What are peoples take on HHG and the other party (cant remember) pulling their investment out prior to maturity? I have mentioned this before but no one shared their views.

Unnamed sources have indicated that dpc maybe on shaky ground. Take that for what you like and as an outsider looking in i would say, invest with caution.

Please do your own research and all information supplied are of my own opinion only OR has been provided from a third party. Please DYOR

discl.Brought this stock at $2.80 and sold at a little over $2.50. Now do not hold

[AMR]

There does not seem to be any accumulation from a technical standpoint/
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/9397/dpc22032008lm3.png


It is possible that the first signs that the NZX bear is dying, may arise within this sector (assuming bear cycle subsets{secondaries} are equal in length to the primary bear cycle).

Could you explain this further?

[Steve]

Not a very pretty chart at all. The only positive is the Director increasing his holding on the way down - unless he is foolishly averaging down his holding...

[Hoop]

AMR and Steve

AMR quote explain further

From a TA perspective (within NZ-small finance company sector) the Elliott wave principle is showing wave c which is better known by ordinary investor as capitulation (same in Financials USA). This is the damaging last half stage of the bear cycle, which gives the investor the feeling of doom and gloom, despair and no hope. This is exactly the stage what is happening on this NZ-SF sector at present. To the broader market overall the bear cycle is not at this stage yet. It could be possible (not known yet) that the overall market may suffer a teddy bear cycle and capitulation maybe shallow with only certain sectors taking the blunt end such as the small finance companies...or a nastier (grizzley) bear may emerge later using the self feeding demise into other economic sector areas. eg Recessions

My view on this is that the financial sector was the trigger to ending the bull market in the USA. In NZ we have had financial problems on a small scale all throughout 2007 as we are well aware by looking at the stress of the local finance companies, however the lag effect prevailed and compounded by USA it was as late as (August)November 2007 that the tide turned for NZ Inc. As this financial problem in NZ is now a year old the big damaging shake out is near the end and the surviving Finance companies have now developed their new strategies of doing business in an altered financial landscape, and it is only the investor perception (doom & gloom) which will take some time to return to normal (confidence). There may still be collapses of weak companies but I personally think we know which of the companies are survivors. Chris Lee's latest summary gives a good indication as to the health of these companies he is in constant contact with.

When to return to the battered small financial markets is up to the investment strategies that each individual investor uses as well as their psychological makeup.

At present the "perceived" risk is huge, real risk is less but is unknown as to what degree. (Note: At Phase 3 of a Bull market "perceived" risk is low real risk is high)

Many investors nowadays are using TA and await buy signals therefore lessening the risk. The problem with this is with illiquid shares especially in the SF companies is when buy signals emerge there will be a sudden lift in share price and many may miss their ideal re-entry price.

Steve..The likes of Byrnes at DPC, Rod Duke and Alaister Wall at PPL, Jan Cameron at PPG, and countless others under the radar are taking an investment strategy approach of invest now to maybe lose some money but reap a much bigger reward later. For us smaller investors it must be remembered that Cameron Duke and Co are buying large chunks of shares in low share liquidity companies, only possible to do so at certain times. However by using this strategy you don't miss out.

Long term investors (e.g Hoop:D) who saw this bear coming and got out early will also be looking to buy back their portfolio before the buy signals start firing. It all has to do with how much risk you are prepared to take when timing to re-enter.

Those investors who are riding out the downturn, the SF sector bear cycle is probably at the stage where it would be foolish to jump ship and sell now. You have decided earlier to take the long term view of holding and that discipline must be heeded, especially now at this later stage. Buying to average down may be premature.

AMR + Steve.....There are cycles within cycles, many at different oscillations and frequencies. With Byrnes, he may be thinking the worst is over in the SF sector and it is time to buy up amongst the carnage, DPC is as cheap as chips.

Personally I must admit DPC DFH and NZF are all looking extremely attractive FA wise, but I am still undecided about the re-enter timing. (How much risk to take buying before the TA buy signals).
Note: My buying before TA buy signals strategy only apply to illiquid shares...liquid shares (eg FBU) wait until TA buy signals)

Been in and out of DPC since 1998. Bought /sold DFH 2006-2007 (+50% profit)... Both on my watchlist.

AMR hope this explaination helps.
:)Hoop

[Deev8]

The only positive is the Director increasing his holding on the way down - unless he is foolishly averaging down his holding...Quite right - foolishly averaging down would be bad, but cleverly averaging down would be good.

In other words if the price rises above his average buying price he will be happy (and in retrospect his strategy will be clever) - and if it doesn't he won't be happy (and in retrospect his strategy will be foolish).

[Steve]

Good post, Hoop! :)

[Nitaa]

Personally i am a far more a FA than a TA. Hence my normally position of buying long term. I generally dont worry about the wild fluctuations that happen on a daily basis.

The difficult thing with financial company's is how good really are the fundamentals. During such a difficult time it is almost impossible to know. The average investor only goes by what they know. Again this is a real issue for me as its almost impossible to tell.

Hoop. You are correct that during the past few months, many investors have been spooked especuially the finance companys. Some of these are quite possibly making steady profits on paper then they get gazumped through cash flow problems when investors pull their money out.

The odds as i see it is that dpc have about a 25% chance of going belly up by the end of the year. There of course is a good chance that we are seeing close to the bottom. This may provide some extremely good returns. As Hoop mentioned or sort of, its risk versus reward.

I also remember about 6 years ago i got sucked into an Aust company that had more cash reserves than the current sp. It also had negligable operating costs yet within about 12 months it lost about 80% of it share value. At the time i thought it was almost a no brainer. Anyway, you live and keep learning.

[bermuda]

As they said in the latest report "Reduced Lending sees reduction in profit." Not too hard to work out in this environment.Get out.

Nita,
I hope you are not buying. You cant turn a profit if enquiries are diminishing. A mate of mine who works for them said it is very hard when the enquiry level is down 60 %.

Why bother with this stock which is under pressure?

[BlackPeter]

The difficult thing with financial company's is how good really are the fundamentals. During such a difficult time it is almost impossible to know. The average investor only goes by what they know. Again this is a real issue for me as its almost impossible to tell.

Hoop. You are correct that during the past few months, many investors have been spooked especuially the finance companys. Some of these are quite possibly making steady profits on paper then they get gazumped through cash flow problems when investors pull their money out.

The odds as i see it is that dpc have about a 25% chance of going belly up by the end of the year. There of course is a good chance that we are seeing close to the bottom. This may provide some extremely good returns. As Hoop mentioned or sort of, its risk versus reward.


Excellent post by Hoop - and absolutely agree with Nita that it is very difficult for anybody (except probably the accountants putting the balance sheet together) to assess the fundamentals.

What sort of comforts me (sometimes nervous about it, but still holding DPC) is the fact that P. A. Byrnes (the guy who bought more than 500 k shares this year) signed exactly this balance sheet. He has as well (according to his CV) more than 20 years accounting experience. Hope he knows what he is doing. Not likely that he wants to invest more than $365,000 of his own money into a company likely to go belly-up - wouldn't you think so?

[Nitaa]

Blackcap

I sold out of this stock when the sp was in the $2.50's. something like about 2 or 3 or even 4 years ago for a 12% loss. I have no intention to ever invest in finance companys. dpc was my first and last.

Blackpepper, you make a valuable point about the director signing off the balance sheet.

[Dr_Who]

Just noticed that Brynes is a chartered accountant with 20 years experience as CEO and director. He is also the director for HBY and Top Energy. He is no fool. Not one who would put his own money into a losing company. Does he know something the market doesnt?

[BlackPeter]

Just noticed that Brynes is a chartered accountant with 20 years experience as CEO and director. He is also the director for HBY and Top Energy. He is no fool. Not one who would put his own money into a losing company. Does he know something the market doesnt?

Dr Who - I think this was the point I tried to make 2 posts ago ...

Let's speculate what he might know what the markets don't -

1) The markets are not sure whether the reported NTA of some $1.70 per share is for real - I am sure, P.A. Byrnes knows the answer!
2) He must have as well a good idea how the cashflow looks like. The DPC CEO (Andrew Walker) stated in September 2007 (business update sent to shareholders) that even with a re-investment rate of 0% and no new investments they would still in 12 months have money in the bank.
3) He might have an idea what DPC plans to do with its money (that's at this stage pretty fuzzy for shareholders, given that they got rid of the finance business for private clients, some real estate and try to sell Equity / Investor).

Not sure how the reverse mortgage business takes off - and I think they get the money for that anyway through Kiwibank, but there might be opportunities for the surviving finance companies - people will still need money in future - maybe they want to buy some of the competitors?

[Dr_Who]

I dont know exactly whats going on, but I have a feeling this company is groomed to be bought out in the near future.

[Corporate]

I dont know exactly whats going on, but I have a feeling this company is groomed to be bought out in the near future.


Your right though, Brynes must know something the general public doesn't. It is a very positive sign that he is buying up shares.

Everything is telling me, don't touch finance companies. However, it is hard not to jump in.

[Dr_Who]

368,000 shares done at 55 cents! Somethings up! Whats up bro?

[blackcap]

I saw that too... im wondering who is doing the selling. Is VIK still selling and if so who is buying. Just trying to work out how low it can go and if its time to start accumulating. That said the cricket is more depressing :)

[blackcap]

Lets assume its VIk (and not a bad assumption)... that would mean they have about 1.2 million to go.... Interesting times

[Hoop]

Hmmmm....buyer paying 2cents above opening price ...price slipped a cent since the 356000 haul....

A willing big buyer is lurking ...methinks.

Not interested in the seller it's the buyer I'm interested in......willing to shell out $2 million exactly assuming commission comes to $4200 (0.2%).

[Dr_Who]

Not interested in the seller it's the buyer I'm interested in......willing to shell out $2 million exactly assuming commission comes to $4200 (0.2%).

Hoop, what do you mean? Where did you get $2 M?

[Hoop]

Hoop, what do you mean? Where did you get $2 M?

oh!......I'm a zero out...sorry about that folks :o

$200,000 exactly.......doesn't sound nearly as exciting does it.

[Steve]

oh!......I'm a zero out...sorry about that folks :o

$200,000 exactly.......doesn't sound nearly as exciting does it.

Would increase the brokerage to 2% as well. Must be using a full-service broker... ;)

[dsurf]

Discl: disgruntled ex holder who bought at mid $2 & held for a year & sold at mid $2 after totally losing faith in management.

I have bagged this stock since it was $1.50 & will keep on doing it until someone (preferably management) can reveal a profitable business plan. The reported profits for the last 2 years have relied on one off asset sales.

I think that instead of wondering about a 200k trade by a director why not think about why Hugh Green wanted his 20m back? At these prices why did he not do a full takeover? Do you think he knows this business? Do you think he has trust in management or the business plan

[Hoop]

Would increase the brokerage to 2% as well. Must be using a full-service broker... ;)

A broker offering advice as to which are the undervalued stocks on the market with potential ????..... nah...nice thought through.

Probable assumption...... DPC loving investor looking to pick up a large chunk in a illiquid stock and has to make the broker do a honest days work in scratching around to find the shares to trade....yeah I 'll settle for this assumption until better informed

No announcement yet so assume Byrnes wasn't the buyer

[Dr_Who]

No announcement yet so assume Byrnes wasn't the buyer

I dont think there is a time period requirement for a director to announce a shareholding change. Can someone advice on this?

[Nitaa]

There must be a time period otherwise there is no need to disclose. My thougts were 2 weeks but that is only a guess

[Steve]

The rules are on the NZX website...

[Dr_Who]

Looks like a large buyer is prepare to take out VIK's holding.

Something's up!!!

[Steve]

Looks like a large buyer is prepare to take out VIK's holding.

How much more is VIK trying to sell?

DPC has had another good drop on the back of LOM as well. Can anyone see DPC breaking 50c?

[Dr_Who]

How much more is VIK trying to sell?

DPC has had another good drop on the back of LOM as well. Can anyone see DPC breaking 50c?

I am not sure exactly. Assuming VIK was the seller yesterday, they will only have less than 700k to sell. The more interesting question is who is the buyer and why are they prepare to buy such a large chunk of stock?

[dsurf]

How much more is VIK trying to sell?

DPC has had another good drop on the back of LOM as well. Can anyone see DPC breaking 50c?

Easily - Ask yourself - how much operating profit did they make in the last two years before the finance world went kaput? Will they accurately report provisions on the loan book? Have they sold Equity investment advisors & why not (is it loss making?) What is the current NTA after they have sold the property? Will investor sentiment turn positive on the finance sector while the media have a blue chip / MFS / LOM / Geneva / field day with endless tales of misery to sell papers / advertising with?

A better question is - what are the odds on this company not going into receivership? They are never quoted as one of the big boys & appear to be under capitalised.
I am very negative on this one & have been for a long time - Can anyone change my mind with any factual positives on this company??????

[Dr_Who]

Dont need to change your mind Dsurf. If you dont like it, then stay well clear of it. Maybe you can sleep better at nights. This stock is for people with large steel balls that dont need to sleep and have a $2,000 Italian coffee maker in the kitchen. :D

[Nitaa]

DPC is now considered a speccy stock. However most speccy stocks start the otherway. i.e start ups and not mature co's.

itheresting volume and good point.. who is buying?

[dsurf]

Dont need to change your mind Dsurf. If you dont like it, then stay well clear of it. Maybe you can sleep better at nights. This stock is for people with large steel balls that dont need to sleep and have a $2,000 Italian coffee maker in the kitchen. :D

I would rather make money & not have steel balls. Mind you you could make a 10 bagger if it goes to 5c

[Nitaa]

The melt down continues.. the difficult thing about investing in this type of stock is how good is their cash flow and how bad are the loan defaulters. That i am afraid is the big unknown. Too many companys now how to make a profit but still go bankrupt

[dsurf]

Dont need to change your mind Dsurf. If you dont like it, then stay well clear of it. Maybe you can sleep better at nights. This stock is for people with large steel balls that dont need to sleep and have a $2,000 Italian coffee maker in the kitchen. :D

Do I hear clang clang - now at 47c - you can post me a cheque anytime if you feel like giving money away.

[Stranger_Danger]

Dsurf,

After talking about the massive collapse to 47 cents on $284 of trades, are you now going to discuss the quick recovery to 50 cents on a major, twice as big nearly, $500 of trades?

[Dr_Who]

Do I hear clang clang - now at 47c - you can post me a cheque anytime if you feel like giving money away.

LOL.. hey Surfy, whats ya postal address? I will post you a chq for 47 cents or you wanna go through paypal? :D

[golden city]

I was wondering how brent king feels.., when the price droped to 47 cents, and bio droped to 2.7 cents

[dsurf]

Dsurf,

After talking about the massive collapse to 47 cents on $284 of trades, are you now going to discuss the quick recovery to 50 cents on a major, twice as big nearly, $500 of trades?

47c meani it broke 50c doesn't it?

[BlackPeter]

just came across the latest DPC business update ...

(check http://www.dorchester.co.nz/About-Dorchester/Company-News/2008/Business-Update-April-2008/MenuId/186.aspx

Looks pretty good to me - still plenty of cash reserves ($30M). If we assume that they don't publish plain lies - can anybody explain to me what all the fuss is about?

[Steve]

I'm very comfortable in knowing that Dorchester no longer own Direct Broking...

[Nitaa]

Excuse my ignorance.I could open the pdf file from the computer i as using. Here are some questions i would ask.

If they have $30m is cash reserves or equivilant then why did they need to borrow $20m. Is there something i missed? Did they sell a big asset or something?

It has a market cap of $17m. Something doesnt add up and smells funny. Whats going on? A fanastic bargin at todays prices or anothander finance company on the brink?

Meanwhile, the trend is still down.

Watching with interest.

[dsurf]

just came across the latest DPC business update ...

(check http://www.dorchester.co.nz/About-Dorchester/Company-News/2008/Business-Update-April-2008/MenuId/186.aspx

Looks pretty good to me - still plenty of cash reserves ($30M). If we assume that they don't publish plain lies - can anybody explain to me what all the fuss is about?

OK - ask yourself what they are not saying or what they are really saying - I willl translate since this company has been talking utter shyte for so long. Quotes are from the marketing update.

1/ "Since our last update in early December we have been focusing on the three key platforms that I believe will position the company for the future - refocus, strengthen and
simplify."

refocus = what we did last time is not working - we got it wrong or we were not focused last time but now we are - it is all different - we have learnt from our unfocused past


strengthen = we are in weak position even though we are making a big deal about having 30m in cash or equivalents - How much is cash & what are the equivalents? If the equivalents include shares - which companies & when were they marked to market. The devil is always in the detail so don't ruin our marketing by giving details!!!

Simplify = we have a lot of loss making operations that were bad business decisions to get into. This resulted from our unfocused strategy

2/ "I have made a commitment to communicate with our investors openly and honestly so that you can fully appreciate the fundamentals of our business and its future direction."

The fundamentals are not reported - what is the re-investment rate, how many loans are in arrears, is the loan book growing or shrinking, etc etc

The future direction is to strengthen, refocus and simplify - fantastic direction which I am very appreciative of

3/ "As our loans are being collected more promptly and efficiently this has resulted in a reduction in penalty fee income, which debtors pay on overdue loans. We have deliberately adopted this policy of securing full cash repayment as soon as possible as we believe that “cash in the bank” is prudent in the current market."

Translated to - our income is reducing, our loan book is reducing, our profitability is reducing

4/ "The process of simplifying our business is on going as we ensure that we are right-sized for the market and opportunities available to us. This is a natural consequence of the new environment, where we believe retail funding will continue at lower than historical levels."

Translated - our business model is outdated where we rely on retail funds. Because we were unfocused we have only just realised this. the business is shrinking because we are having to sell our assets to protect liquidity since our funding base is no longer available.

5/ To supplement this (retail funds) we are continuing to explore institutional funding lines, with several potential opportunities being developed.

There are no no concrete offers because we are in the middle of a credit crunch and we have acted far too slowly

6/ "Cash (and equivalents) represented 12% of Dorchester Finance’s total assets as at the end of February. Through March our cash position has remained consistently above $30 million."

So what - Are they making operating profit. Does it cover fixed costs. How long will it last

7/ "The Graphs"

Funding obligations within next 12 months = around 160m
Financial assets & cash equivalents = around 177m

177 - 160 = 17m which is the amount of bad loans that can be absorbed & liabilities will be <= assets.

17m / 160m = 10.6%

In other words as long as:

1 they are generating operating profits that cover fixed costs

and 2 Bad debts do not go over 10.6%

then there is no problem.

Of course what we really need to know is who the loan book is to, how much in cars, property businesses etc, how much is 1st priority debt & how much is 2nd priority debt. etc etc

[Nitaa]

dsurf. good post and you are probably very accurate in your assessment.

Over the years i have become more very (call me cynical) of lack of true disclosure. When a company starts generalising about their position i begin to worry. What are they hiding/not telling the average investor. The mere fact they mention $30m cash or equivelant (what is the equivelant made up of) raises red flags.

On face value this stock looks a dead set bargin. Its only when you lok into it that there are concerns raised. It seems the further you dig, the more questions and copncerns are raised. Dsurf, you mention about their book value. is their business shrinking or growing. How much money do they have exposed to where. These are all pertainent questions.

For the sake of investors and a friend who invested heavily in this company i hope i am wrong.

Just my opinion of course all all investors should do their own research

[Hoop]

just came across the latest DPC business update ...

(check http://www.dorchester.co.nz/About-Dorchester/Company-News/2008/Business-Update-April-2008/MenuId/186.aspx

Looks pretty good to me - still plenty of cash reserves ($30M). If we assume that they don't publish plain lies - can anybody explain to me what all the fuss is about?

The small finance sector is in an advanced bear market phase of its own and is at present still suffering from a prolonged capitulation phase (wave c). This segment is more advanced within it's bear market than the NZX index overall which is the "averaging" (weightings?) of the companies within differing sectors..
Some sectors within the overall market get clobbered more than others. Note that the energy segment of the NZX such as companies Pike and NZO is still in a bull market phase cycle.

Ok This Finance sector is suffering from a rather particular severe form of Bear ...this bear is very nasty, and it's destructive (an asset gobbler). Most finance companies have meagre NTA's... exception being DPC and so perhaps this is the reason for its severe mauling.

Bear market phases are notorious for their illogical behaviour..and results in unjustified terminations of companies as well as possible bargain buys of others.





So...2 questions.

Have we hit the bottom of this sector bear phase (the beginning of the U ???? ......
My personal feeling is no/maybe (negative). If/when the bottom is reached, expect a long lag to recovery (the U).

What financial companies will survive this bear ? Identification, so to re-invest at the middle of the U curve....DPC ? (the example given, as this is the DPC post thread)...............
All indications suggest yes. Against many commentators beliefs I believe in Chris Lee's comment that Management and the larger wealthy shareholders are DPC biggest strengths ...Management ability to quickly adapt to the changing landscape of the NZ financial secondary market and to its major wealthy shareholders who are willing to put their money into DPC at times of need.


Disc: no DPC..... on watchlist

[dsurf]

Agree that if this one survives then it will at some point in time worth buying. however it needs to build an extended base before I would dream of buying it.

The large shareholders are an asset and they have shown that they are willing to lend to DPC. They also want thier money back! What I can't resolve though is that are willing to lend to protect thier investment, but they are also saying that the investment is not worth having 100% of.

I strongly disagree that management have acted quickly. The finance crisis has been going on for well over 6 months and that was when they should have broadened the funding base.

Looks to me like HG has said "go and loan from someone else and prove this is a viable business still because I have better places to put my money"

[BlackPeter]

dsurf - Thanks for a good analysis and explanation. I agree that you hold a valid view point - and yes, the company management is probably not as good as it could be!

On the other hand - Paul Byrnes (company director and chartered accountant) just bought another 50.000 shares (@47 cents each). I would expect he knows how much these cash reserves are worth ...

cheers ...

[Hoop]

dsurf - Thanks for a good analysis and explanation. I agree that you hold a valid view point - and yes, the company management is probably not as good as it could be!

On the other hand - Paul Byrnes (company director and chartered accountant) just bought another 50.000 shares (@47 cents each). I would expect he knows how much these cash reserves are worth ...

cheers ...

Yes Paul Byrnes buy ins is very positive. It would confirm that at this stage Paul assumes that DPC will be a survivor and it's share price must be grossly underpriced for him to be buying in at a time of the rapidly falling shareprice.

Although it's nice to think Paul Byrnes knows what he doing...From the outside looking in it seems he is making mistakes.....mostly timing his buy ins. He's trying to catch that falling dagger...ouch! Maybe Phaedrus can give him some advice..:)

I guess its that old strategy of risk verses reward I mentioned in one of my posts earlier.

Is that announced future rights issue still on the agenda ????

[Steve]

Is that announced future rights issue still on the agenda ????

No doubt it will happen once the shareprice stabilises?

[COLIN]

No doubt it will happen once the shareprice stabilises?

Surely you mean IF?

[Billy Boy]

Assuming you had to buy......
Who would you buy ?
Hanover, Dorchester, or Dominion Finance and in which order.
Cheers BB

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Billy Boy Dorchester, Dominion Finance then Hanover

[Steve]

Currently I would say Dominion, Dorchester, Hanover...

[COLIN]

Currently I would say Dominion, Dorchester, Hanover...

So would I - but I would only invest in the latter two if I was forced at gunpoint.

[Hoop]

Excuse my ignorance.I could open the pdf file from the computer i as using. Here are some questions i would ask.

If they have $30m is cash reserves or equivilant then why did they need to borrow $20m. Is there something i missed? Did they sell a big asset or something?

It has a market cap of $17m. Something doesnt add up and smells funny. Whats going on? A fanastic bargin at todays prices or anothander finance company on the brink?

Meanwhile, the trend is still down.

Watching with interest.

Nita
quote Did they sell a big asset or something?
Yes they did, at the end last year they sold the building and leased back the floor(s) that has their head office in. Sold it for just over $30 Million from memory..slightly above book value. This is the reason why DPC has such a high NTA/share compared with other finance companies.

That $30M alone accounts for NTA/s = 30M/36.098M* = 83 cents/share

[Steve]

Nita
quote [COLOR=seagreen] That $30M alone accounts for NTA/s = 30M/36.098M* = 83 cents/share

Wasn't part of the proceeds from the building sale then used to repay those $20m shareholder advances?

[Hoop]

Wasn't part of the proceeds from the building sale then used to repay those $20m shareholder advances?

Not sure Steve....finance companies as you know are complex beasts and very hard to find accurate data.

Unless someone in the know can tell us, I guess we will have to wait until the end of May for the Full Year Result. I think the NTA was about $1.65/share at the last count wasn't it ?

DB details has it as $1.67
Using Total equity from the half year report it works out at $1.78. How much of this is realisable is anyones guess.

The NTA figure at full year result (end of May) will give us the amount of burn if any.

[mskv]

Agree with you that no one is sure of NTA. Just looked at Dorchester Finances Prospectus and in the last six months the current management lent over 70% of their capital to one party. This is astonishing in a time when the CEO says they are preserving cash. Assuming that this is a property loan I hope its not that big property development in Queenstown that some of the other finance companies are struggling with.
On the big seller a couple of weeks ago, rumour is that it was not Viking but ACC. Rumour is also that Viking have not been selling much in the last couple of months. Anyone know if that is true??

[KJ]

Wasn't part of the proceeds from the building sale then used to repay those $20m shareholder advances?


DPC advised the market on 29 Feb that they had $33m in cash or cash equivalents after repaying a $20m loan to related parties.

[Dr_Who]

ACC only has a small amount in DPC.

[Nitaa]

DPC advised the market on 29 Feb that they had $33m in cash or cash equivalents after repaying a $20m loan to related parties.
How much cash and what are actually the equivalents?. $1m cash and $29m AR's equal that as well but the total AR's may be bad debts. Not trying to be cynical but unless they are more transparent how can one be confident when imo there is a lack of disclosure.

[KJ]

Yes Nina-I understand that-was just responding to a question re the repayment of the $20m.

If the assets of the coy are worth the stated values it may be in the best interests of shareholders to liquidate the coy.

[Dr_Who]

If the assets of the coy are worth the stated values it may be in the best interests of shareholders to liquidate the coy.

Maybe best to sell off all the assets at book value, distribute the cash and leave the listed coy as a shell for backdoor listing opportunities.

[mskv]

ACC only has a small amount in DPC.

Thanks, my info was that they sold down to the small holding they now have.

The $20m plus loan in Dorchester Finance had nothing to do with the shareholders loans. I also noted that they also lent on another loan $15m thats 35m plus in the last six months to Sept lent.

Hope they aren't loans bailing out St Laurence.

Understand that the St Laurence capital raising hasn't gone well.

[mskv]

Maybe best to sell off all the assets at book value, distribute the cash and leave the listed coy as a shell for backdoor listing opportunities.

Totally agree. Seems to be the only sensible way of making money from this company. Management seem to be heading it down this route as there seems to be no ability to run a profitable business now or in the future

[lewinsky]

The only one that seems to be making money out of DPC is the CEO who appears to be doing nothing, and the directors (other than Byrnes) whose definition of risk seems to be getting out of bed in the morning.
They announced at the Annual Meeting that they were selling the Investment Advisary business. Still no info on the sale. How long does it take to sell a small loss making company?
They must be relying on the Insurance business, but I can't see how this is going to prop them up. The RAM market is too small and they lost out to Sentinal big time two years ago.

Totally lost faith and the sp would indicate I am not alone.

If you are not relying on retail debenture money, now would be a great time to set-up a well run finance company.

[dsurf]

The CEO is a joke - His biggest crimes of which there are many!

1/ Getting into a public verbal warfare with the founder and large shareholder, which has singlehandedly destroyed 75% (was circa $2.00 when the tiff got public) of the owners (shareholders) money. Fantastastic value destruction

2/ Having no plan or direction - RAM did not work and they were very slow getting into the market. Was BS all the time by an academic who appears to know jack about business - first adopter, competiton (senate) , etc

3/ did not see the liquidity crisis, retail funding crisis, etc so destroyed the companies liquidity position & created huge financial & funding risk

I think a three year finance course could be written on the back of his performance as a guide of: lack of planning, lack of direction, lack of focus, lack of strategy, negative communications, value destructive policies, Risk & how to create it, NTA destruction, Governance, Reporting standards & transparency, etc etc

[Stranger_Danger]

Is dsurf Brent King? lol

[dsurf]

Is dsurf Brent King? lol

No I am not BKBurger - I will try & contain my factual rants!

[Billy Boy]

I will try & contain my factual rants!
No Dont
It's up to the individual to take out or make of it what they want.
Your opinion/rants have some (lots of) merrit. ;)
Cheers & Beers
BB:)

[Stranger_Danger]

dsurf - nah, don't stop, it takes many views to make up a forum. I'm just gently mocking as you seem to absolutely hate the bloke, much like BK :)

[Nitaa]

dsurf.

I thought is was BK who startd the the public and media slanging of DPC CEO. Maybe im wrong. Alll the same what BK did was totally stupid unless he wanted the shareprice to drop for some other motive.

Although i thought BK has lost the plot he is still very clever in being able to use other peoples money to his benefit. How this pans out i have no idea. I am sure some others in the know have any idea on what is going to happen

[lewinsky]

Hi DSurf,

I commend you on the mildness of your opinion on this. I'd love to hear your real views.

by the way is DPC short for Dopes Performing Cluelessly?

[Hoop]

Hi DSurf,

I commend you on the mildness of your opinion on this. I'd love to hear your real views.

by the way is DPC short for Dopes Performing Cluelessly?

So you lot say that Byrnes it a dope and his DPC personal buys are clueless ?
Hmmmm....

[Billy Boy]

So you lot say that Byrnes it a dope and his DPC personal buys are clueless ?
Hmmmm....
Not all of us hoop old son ;)
I,ve been accumulating, small but steady.
BB

[Dr_Who]

Not all of us hoop old son ;)
I,ve been accumulating, small but steady.
BB

I am in the same boat. I am not concern on short term price weakness. If we go down, Brynes, HG and St La will go down also. They have much more to lose than my very small holding. ;)

[mskv]

My only problem is with Byrnes buying , is that unless he is breaking the insider trading laws he is actually confirming to the market that nothing is going on at DPC. Buying could be seen as a criticism of DPC's management and his own Board

Does that mean that they:
Don't have a buyer for Equity
Don't have alternative funding
Can't complete the St Laurence deal (remember they had some option to buy another 25%)
No business strategy

I'm with Dsurf the current management is nothing short of an expensive receiver

[Dr_Who]

Buying could be seen as a criticism of DPC's management and his own Board



What?? Why would someone buy as a criticism of the board?

[mskv]

He is criticising the board I am

[lewinsky]

Brynes being buying at 80cents and the price is now 47 cents. mmmmmmmmmmmmm.
He may have been better buying NZO or taking out a DPC unsecured convertible note.
If something is happening behind the scenes I'm with mskv.

[Balance]

Let's review what happened.

BK sold his shareholding to Bridgecorp in a deal which was censured by the NZX.

BK started buying back into DPC at over $2.00, trying to regain control.

BK could not regain control, start criticising the company whilst he sold out of his shareholding at ever lower prices.

We are missing something here, geniuses?

[lewinsky]

I think that line 3 is incorrect.
I see no evidence of BK buying more at $2.
His remaining shares were tipped into Viking.
They have been selling.
They are also carrying a massive book loss on their holding.
So I can understand why BK is grumpy.
If Byrnes hadn't been buying I wonder what the share price would be?

[James Bond]

It appears to me that Byrnes is only delaying the inevitable, Zero.
DPC have no business strategy, inept management, and I only own a few shares of DPC so i can attend their AGM. Its amongst some of the best comedy you can get and the clowns are up centre and in front on what they call the Board Table. Thoroughly recommend it to you all, my only issue is that they only serve tea at the end not Martini's (shaken not stirred).:p

[mskv]

Lets really review what has happened to DPC.

Yes BK did sell to Bridgecorp (in hindsight a great deal wish I was part of) in 2004
He resigned from DPC when price was $2.50
His shares were tipped into Vik
DPC appoints CEO with no industry or CEO experience
No finance sector experience on the Board or management at a time when the well predicted demise of the sector was under way.
Vik buy shares hoping to put a Director with finance exp
25% of St Laurence purchased for $30m!!! with option in a years time. Podmore added to board
Media criticisms from both DPC and BK (who starts it is debatable)
Did not manage their cash (requiring a urgent top up loan from shareholders) after spending $20m in cash to buy St Laurence and 45m in two loans(done with in six months of the loan from shareholder)
Criticisms of the performance of the company have born true as the company has failed to generate operating profits, lacks strategy for future.
Current Board's best approach is to put it into volantary receivership and hand back the Net asset backing of $1.70 to shareholders
Money to be made in this stock in the wind up!!

[James Bond]

Let's review what happened.

BK sold his shareholding to Bridgecorp in a deal which was censured by the NZX.

BK started buying back into DPC at over $2.00, trying to regain control.

BK could not regain control, start criticising the company whilst he sold out of his shareholding at ever lower prices.

We are missing something here, geniuses?

Balance, please be rational, how can you condem BK who sold 19.9% of DPC at 3.70 and know they are worth 47 cents.

BK sounds like a bloody genius!!!

Yes, he made have bought more at around $2.00 but it was peanuts in comparision to what he used to own, Play Money, Bloody Play Money.

BK is the guy who got out of the finance company sector at its top, told everyone it would turn nasty and nobody listened. Many would have now wished they had!

If i was the owner of DPC i would get BK on the phone and ask him to come and sort out this mess. Cause you can bet you last dollar on the fact that the current management only have on solution. Sell all assets before they go to ZERO!!!!

[Stranger_Danger]

BK is a genius?

This is a guy who seems to have seen the credit crunch coming - note his comments of a few years ago about profiting from a time when asset prices start to fall via VIK.

But, what is he in? Penny dreadful BIO and DPC, held through penny dreadful "investment" company VIK!

I see little sign of BK profiting from a period when assets are being repriced due to risk being repriced.

What he has said doesn't count : what counts is what he has done. As the old saying goes, predicting rain doesn't count, building an ark counts.

Regarding the new CEO - and comments that he is effectively a highly paid liquidator - I think there is actually an element of truth in this, but, the negative inference is completely wrong. Highly paid? He doesn't set his pay level. Liquidator? Well....

You guys appear to be saying that the company sucks, the sector sucks, the board sucks etc.

You then bash the CEO for implementing a strategy that involves preserving cash, collecting loans in, not making many new loans etc. In other words, winding back / winding down the business, or at least the size of it.

If we accept that "everything sucks" is the correct analysis, then I see the actions of the CEO as rational.

[COLIN]

Current Board's best approach is to put it into volantary receivership and hand back the Net asset backing of $1.70 to shareholders


I absolutely wouldn't count on the $1-70 actually being there. No way! Unless one has inside knowledge as to the NRV of the present assets in a forced sale.

[dsurf]

The CEO deserves criticism for:

Acting to slowly when the finance company fallout was well predicted
Having no strategy
Not being focused (& telling everyone)
Not having a direction (&telling everyone)
Selling Equity at the worse time possible
Destroying the share price via imcomprehensible public fighting with BK
Destroying share holder loyalty
Destroying a potential funding base from those shareholders
The lack of operating profit
The hopeless board that has not changed
Being the top guy who has the responsibility

Starnger Danger -What does he deserve praise for?

[Stranger_Danger]

dsurf,

In ordinary times, much of what you say would be relevant. Today though, he only has job : make sure the company survives the next 12 months, then work out what to do at that stage.

I believe the moves he is making - with the cards he was dealt, and dealt to himself early in his reign (St Laurence) - are the correct ones to maximise the chances of survival.

[Dr_Who]

BK is a genius?

.

He is a brilliant investor! Brilliant at destorying shareholders value. Would anyone here invest in VIK? LOL what a laugh.

Hey MSKV, since you love BK so much, do you own any VIK shares? If so at what price did you get VIK? If not, then you are full of shiat.

[mskv]

Dr Who

Interesting response. I seem to have hit a raw nerve.
I am a disgruntled DPC shareholder who paid too much and have watched the value be systematically destroyed to under a third of the net asset value.

I have not endorsed BK at all, this is about the performance of this company and its CEO.

[James Bond]

dsurf,

In ordinary times, much of what you say would be relevant. Today though, he only has job : make sure the company survives the next 12 months, then work out what to do at that stage.

I believe the moves he is making - with the cards he was dealt, and dealt to himself early in his reign (St Laurence) - are the correct ones to maximise the chances of survival.

Stranger Danger, what do you mean by the card he was dealt?
The cards were a nice set, orchestrated by BK who was furiously diversifing income streams of DPC prior to his departure. BK was predicting the downfall of many finance companies, and was setting up DPC to profit from it, building significant cash reserves. Unfortunately Walker steps in with a merchant banker attitude and just had to buy something, ST Laurence, at the peak of the market at a premium price.

SD if you attended the last DPC AGM you would have seen Podmore on stage smiling from ear to ear, one happy boy. He was like the cat that got the cream, Walker bought a PUP as they say.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

James Bond I agree buying St Laurence was very stupid

[dsurf]

I would like to highlight the brilliant communication skills by the CEO in todays herald article. (give him a pay rise!!!)

Providing info is annoying!!!!!!!!
By definition DPC already comply!!!!!!!!!

Andrew Walker, chief executive of Dorchester Pacific Group, one of a handful of remaining listed finance companies, said the request from NZX was clearly a kneejerk reaction to Lombard's failure and "a rather annoying hindrance to our business".

He said it would divert management from core tasks "to come up with answers to questions which by definition you should already be in compliance with".




NZX puts finance firms on notice after failure
5:00AM Tuesday April 22, 2008
By Adam Bennett



Finance companies in freefall
Geneva fate in hands of debenture investors
Trade in PFG suspended
In the aftermath of Lombard Finance's failure, New Zealand Exchange has moved to improve the information disclosed by the remaining handful of listed finance companies.

The market operator and regulator said that "in the current environment" it considered finance firms' monthly reinvestment rates, debt servicing obligations, expected monthly income and loan concentration "material information" that should be disclosed to the market.

Unless they explain by the close of trade today why they do not consider this information material, they will be required to disclose it by the end of each month beginning on April 30.

NZX specified that information on loan concentration should detail the proportion of a firms' overall lending to its biggest five borrowers, "and any significant connections" between them.

This month, the Herald reported that the loan book of Lombard Finance and Investments, a subsidiary of the listed Lombard Group, had become highly concentrated. The information was in an amendment to the company's prospectus filed to the Companies Office last Christmas Eve, but despite its apparent significance, Lombard's parent did not disclose it to the market.


After Lombard Finance's receivership on April 10, NZX confirmed it was investigating the company's compliance with disclosure rules.

Andrew Walker, chief executive of Dorchester Pacific Group, one of a handful of remaining listed finance companies, said the request from NZX was clearly a kneejerk reaction to Lombard's failure and "a rather annoying hindrance to our business".

He said it would divert management from core tasks "to come up with answers to questions which by definition you should already be in compliance with".

NZX head of market supervision Elaine Campbell denied that the request was a reaction to Lombard. "This is a sector that has been seeing troubles now for some lengthy period of time."

Under the present conditions the information NZX was asking for was clearly material in that it was "what a reasonable person would expect to have an effect on the price of securities".

"This is what we believe these companies should be disclosing and we have given them the opportunity to dispute that."

NZX's beefed-up approach to disclosure applies to listed finance companies or companies with material finance company subsidiaries. It would apply to Cynotech Holdings, Dominion Finance, Dorchester Pacific Group, Marac Finance's owner, Pyne Gould Corporation, and New Zealand Finance.


Listed finance companies or finance company subsidiaries of listed companies which have struck difficulties in the past two years are Lombard, OPI Pacific Finance -formerly known as MFS Pacific Finance, and Nathans Finance.

OPI Pacific Finance is not in receivership and is seeking a moratorium from investors. Campbell said its parent company was expected to comply with NZX's request.

Meanwhile, Lombard Group chief executive Michael Reeves yesterday said no value would be attributed to Lombard Finance in the group'scoming March year results. The value of $2 million in Lombard Finance debenture stock held by the group would be assessed after an initial receivers' report.

Reeves also said that Lombard Group has sold its Maestro online insurance and mortgage facilitation business to the company's general manager, and Lombard's board was reviewing the group's operations in the light of the Lombard Finance receivership.

WHAT NZX WANTS

* Listed finance company information - NZX deems the following "material":
* The reinvestment rate of investors for the month to date.
* The debt being serviced for the month to date.
* The expected income for the following month.
* The concentration of the loan book, specifically the proportion of the overall loan book in the top five borrowers and any significant connections between the top five borrowers such that the failure of one could impact on the other.

[Hoop]

I must admit ..D surf.. reading between the lines from Andrew's statement it sounds very much like they(DPC) haven't an ongoing updating financial monitoring system in place...if that's the case a financial company not monitoring its own performance is scary to say the least. With a monitoring system in place it should not be a onerous task in reporting to the NZX every month.

I also have a feeling these guys still don't get it!!
....Andy, my lad, have a look at your companies share price...it could tell you why the NZX acted this way....there is no knee jerk reaction from where I sit.

Anyway....Guys...tough!!! If NZ small finance companies want to act like secret societies and ignore your investors and shareholders, treat them like second class citizens, and feed them with childish like sales propaganda bullsh1t..then you get want you deserve....regulations!!

As I said in my last post ..Good idea NZX.

I hope now that the industry wakes up and gives it's shareholders/investors the respect they deserve. It's long overdue.


Disc: I have no shares in this sector at the moment.

[Hoop]

James Bond I agree buying St Laurence was very stupid

At that time, that it was a defensive move...a textbook example of merging with the big guys so they can protect ones backside from a hostile takeover as well as protection against an increasingly hostile financial environment. At the time DPC was exposed (high NTA value) with funds drying up, a shortage of experienced skilled personnel, and Hugh Green at that time may not had been seen as a reliable white knight stockholder.

In hindsight... a good move for DPC as a ongoing company.....bad news/no win situation for the shareholders.

[Toddy]

I must admit ..D surf.. reading between the lines from Andrew's statement it sounds very much like they(DPC) haven't an ongoing updating financial monitoring system in place...if that's the case a financial company not monitoring its own performance is scary to say the least. With a monitoring system in place it should not be a onerous task in reporting to the NZX every month.

I also have a feeling these guys still don't get it!!
....Andy, my lad, have a look at your companies share price...it could tell you why the NZX acted this way....there is no knee jerk reaction from where I sit.

Anyway....Guys...tough!!! If NZ small finance companies want to act like secret societies and ignore your investors and shareholders, treat them like second class citizens, and feed them with childish like sales propaganda bullsh1t..then you get want you deserve....regulations!!

As I said in my last post ..Good idea NZX.

I hope now that the industry wakes up and gives it's shareholders/investors the respect they deserve. It's long overdue.


Disc: I have no shares in this sector at the moment.


Why not just ask for a monthly cashflow statement. And if DPC cannot provide this then they can send in copies of their bank statements to the NZX and highlight capital items vs p&l items. Forget about the bulls*it, no depreciation etc .All as they need is a photocopier and a highlight pen.

The NZX will soon work out if the Company is in trouble of not. Hell, I'll do it for a $1000 a month. I'm sure that the shareholders will not mind paying this small amount for an independent report each month on the cash position.

Qualifications. Member C.A since 1990, B.Com, U.K banking 8 years. Now mucking around home growing Kiwifruit and analysing companies on the NZX,ASX.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Hoop how do you come to your hindsight decision. Because my thoughts are that the colapse of ST Laurence will kill Dorchester and I think there is a big probability that ST Laurence will colapse

[Hoop]

Hoop how do you come to your hindsight decision. Because my thoughts are that the colapse of ST Laurence will kill Dorchester and I think there is a big probability that ST Laurence will colapse

StL collapse??? I'm under the impression StL is one of the few very strong Financial company Groups in NZ and Australia...Chris Lee who is in regular contact rates it highly.

A La, secret society...I'm probably the last to know ..so Possum (without libeling yourself) what's the gos??

[dsurf]

At that time, that it was a defensive move...a textbook example of merging with the big guys so they can protect ones backside from a hostile takeover as well as protection against an increasingly hostile financial environment. At the time DPC was exposed (high NTA value) with funds drying up, a shortage of experienced skilled personnel, and Hugh Green at that time may not had been seen as a reliable white knight stockholder.

In hindsight... a good move for DPC as a ongoing company.....bad news/no win situation for the shareholders.

Don't you mean ......In hindsight Great for ongoing management jobs etc ...... paid for by shareholders, debenture holders .....creditors coming?

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Hoop just my nose tells me it smells. & My nose detected a very foul odour from Provincial Finance over four years ago and Cris Lee was rating it very highly. Do some research on national property trust and there conection with some of the ST Laurence people. My nose has told me that Strategic Finance is not in the best of condition either. Some very big holes in the ground here in Auckland that are not going anywhere at moment the newspapers say they are financing. Very glad to have my money out of Strategic.

[Steve]

In the aftermath of Lombard Finance's failure, New Zealand Exchange has moved to improve the information disclosed by the remaining handful of listed finance companies.

The market operator and regulator said that "in the current environment" it considered finance firms' monthly reinvestment rates, debt servicing obligations, expected monthly income and loan concentration "material information" that should be disclosed to the market.

The NZX should have demanded this long ago. It would have been preferable to the weak 'confirm that nothing is wrong' request that they did when it was first hitting the fan. Better later than never, I guess...


I must admit ..D surf.. reading between the lines from Andrew's statement it sounds very much like they(DPC) haven't an ongoing updating financial monitoring system in place...if that's the case a financial company not monitoring its own performance is scary to say the least. With a monitoring system in place it should not be a onerous task in reporting to the NZX every month.

What's surprising is that they obviously don't have daily management reporting with regards to liquidity etc, given their loan book size and current market conditions, which should be available with the push of a buttom on any halfway decent finance-company accounting system.

Disc: have previously worked in the finance industry.

[Hoop]

Well I read DPC response to NZX enquiry.....hate to admit it.. but.. I didn't understand one word that was written :confused::confused:...could anyone with a higher IQ than me please tell me the state of DPC with facts from this piece of gobbledygook nonsense.

Oh dear!!! as an investor I going off DPC and the rest of these financial companies in a big way!!!!

NZX..I consider this disclosure as unacceptable.


DPC 22/04/2008 GENERAL REL: 1648 HRS Dorchester Pacific Limited GENERAL:

DPC: Dorchester Pacific Limited -

Continuous Disclosure Inquiry 22 April 2008

Ms Elaine Campbell
Head of Market Supervision
New Zealand Exchange Limited
P O Box 2959
Wellington

Dear Ms Campbell

Dorchester Pacific Limited - Continuous Disclosure Inquiry

Dorchester Pacific Limited ("DPC") has received the letter from NZX Regulation referred to in their press release dated 18 April 2008 entitled "Finance Company Disclosure".

DPC undertakes regular reviews of a broad suite of financial metrics relevant to assessing its financial and trading position, and its solvency. Whilst the matters listed by NZX Regulation in its 18 April 2008 letter are important considerations, they are a subset of the broader suite and focussing on these factors without regard to the other metrics provides an incomplete and potentially misleading picture.

These financial metrics are reviewed by DPC against the background of its continuous disclosure obligations under Rule 10.1.1 of the NZSX Listing Rules and the disclosure requirements placed upon Dorchester by its various trust deeds. Should any such factor, when considered in the context of other relevant information, be "material information" under the NZSX Listing Rules, then DPC is required to disclose such information to the market.

The Directors confirm that as at the date of this letter DPC is in full compliance with its obligations under Rule 10.1.1. In providing this confirmation, the Directors have specifically considered the matters listed by NZX Regulation.

Yours sincerely
Barry Graham Chairman

End CA:00163570 For:DPC Type:GENERAL Time:2008-04-22:16:48:30

[Dr_Who]

Well I read DPC response to NZX enquiry.....hate to admit it.. but.. I didn't understand one word that was written :confused::confused:...could anyone with a higher IQ than me please tell me the state of DPC with facts from this piece of gobbledygook nonsense.

Oh dear!!! as an investor I going off DPC and the rest of these financial companies in a big way!!!!

NZX..I consider this disclosure as unacceptable.

End CA:00163570 For:DPC Type:GENERAL Time:2008-04-22:16:48:30

I have the exact response as you. What the fack are they on about?

[Reihana]

At the same time, whether you can decipher the detail of the statement or not, it pleases me to see DPC and others telling the NZX to stick it up their kilt. The school prefectly tone of their communications alone puts my nose out of joint. Then there's their utter lack of commercialism. What a bunch of cardy-wearing hacks!

[QOH]

At the same time, whether you can decipher the detail of the statement or not, it pleases me to see DPC and others telling the NZX to stick it up their kilt. The school prefectly tone of their communications alone puts my nose out of joint. Then there's their utter lack of commercialism. What a bunch of cardy-wearing hacks!

Yes I thought NZ Finance sounded PO in their response too.

[Toddy]

Yes I thought NZ Finance sounded PO in their response too.

DPC management have not got time for continuous financial disclosure but have time to get into a legal dispute with the 'system' by taking on the very establishment that is trying to give them a platform to show how secure they actually are. Hence, making it easier for them to raise capital.

This is an opportunity for the financial companies, not a threat.

But then again, it all depends on how 'bent' you are. i.e what you have to hide.

[Nitaa]

Full Disclosure?

What about DPC's investments in Queenstown? Why is it that I know about it yet the market doesnt? How about some shareholder ask DPC these investments. Or ask about how much tyhey arte making/losing on the reverse moortgages. Getting sour by the day but then again, what would i know?

If any of you people are holders, give them a ring and ask how these investments are going. Then see what happens in the next few months.

[mskv]

At that time, that it was a defensive move...a textbook example of merging with the big guys so they can protect ones backside from a hostile takeover as well as protection against an increasingly hostile financial environment. At the time DPC was exposed (high NTA value) with funds drying up, a shortage of experienced skilled personnel, and Hugh Green at that time may not had been seen as a reliable white knight stockholder.

In hindsight... a good move for DPC as a ongoing company.....bad news/no win situation for the shareholders.

In hindsight we can call this purchase of St Laurence anything we like. It may have been all sorts of strategies.
The issue is that amongst all the turmoil of the finance sector DPC purchased 25% of ST Laurence for $30m. now that makes by my arithmetic a valuation of $120m when STL net assets were $50m.

As a DPC shareholder my only hope is that there is some value in the StL holding?? How did there capital raise go?

[mskv]

Full Disclosure?

What about DPC's investments in Queenstown? Why is it that I know about it yet the market doesnt? How about some shareholder ask DPC these investments. Or ask about how much tyhey arte making/losing on the reverse moortgages. Getting sour by the day but then again, what would i know?

If any of you people are holders, give them a ring and ask how these investments are going. Then see what happens in the next few months.

What queenstown investment? Whats the gos on that?

Hope it isn't one of those big loans thay made in the last half year?

[Nitaa]

What queenstown investment? Whats the gos on that?

Hope it isn't one of those big loans thay made in the last half year?This is a question you (if you are a shareholder) need to ask DPC.

disc: I am not a qualified advisor so please do your own research

[Hoop]

Full Disclosure?

What about DPC's investments in Queenstown? Why is it that I know about it yet the market doesnt? How about some shareholder ask DPC these investments. Or ask about how much tyhey arte making/losing on the reverse moortgages. Getting sour by the day but then again, what would i know?

If any of you people are holders, give them a ring and ask how these investments are going. Then see what happens in the next few months.

Last year when the shares started down turning at an accelerated pace, I emailed DPC as an concerned shareholder, gave them all my personal information so they would know I was genuine... eg shareholder number phone number to ring etc etc...After no response to my email I rang twice and got mucked around (busy,sorry unavailable). They never did reply to my phone-calls neither...so I took the view this was a bad sign.

Also well done Pyne Gould Corporation Limited (PGC) (http://www.directbroking.co.nz/directtrade/dynamic/announcement.aspx?id=1924352) Marac!!! (http://www.directbroking.co.nz/directtrade/dynamic/announcement.aspx?id=1924352)
Just goes to show who the switched on finance companies are in NZ.
They were happy to comply, no grizzles....Saw an opportunity to promote their company and did so..Got great free advertising for their efforts from the media. They come across as investor friendly, nothing to hide, no bullsh1t, we are doing alright attitude showing facts to prove it.

The rest...sad to say more of the same old BS, unfriendly tardy companies with I don't give a sh1t altitude..gave an impression to media that they have issues and lots to hide...

Apart from Marac who took this as a good marketing opportunity the rest I'm afraid dropped the ball.

This guys( Reihana & Co).... is commercialism at work...... Companies who see opportunity within a poor situation and milk it for what it's worth....Marac is miles ahead in this department and this probably why they are successful within this tough financial environment.

[dsurf]

[QUOTE=Hoop;196127]Well I read DPC response to NZX enquiry.....hate to admit it.. but.. I didn't understand one word that was written :confused::confused:...could anyone with a higher IQ than me please tell me the state of DPC with facts from this piece of gobbledygook nonsense.

Oh dear!!! as an investor I going off DPC and the rest of these financial companies in a big way!!!!

NZX..I consider this disclosure as unacceptable.

Hoop let me translate:







Dorchester Pacific Limited ("DPC") has received the letter from NZX Regulation referred to in their press release dated 18 April 2008 entitled "Finance Company Disclosure".

= It is only a letter under the "Finance company disclosure rules" therefore we only need to obey the legal & technical guidelines of these rules (shareholders, debentureholders etc don't need info, this is for the insiders only)

DPC undertakes regular reviews of a broad suite of financial metrics relevant to assessing its financial and trading position, and its solvency.

= We will not tell you which metrics or whart thier values are because it is not anyones business

Whilst the matters listed by NZX Regulation in its 18 April 2008 letter are important considerations, they are a subset of the broader suite and focussing on these factors without regard to the other metrics provides an incomplete and potentially misleading picture.

= We disagree that these metrics are important since they only tell part of the story and we are not keen to tell any of the story since the publice etc are too dum

These financial metrics are reviewed by DPC against the background of its continuous disclosure obligations under Rule 10.1.1 of the NZSX Listing Rules and the disclosure requirements placed upon Dorchester by its various trust deeds.

= We are obeying the rules but refuse to prove it

Should any such factor, when considered in the context of other relevant information, be "material information" under the NZSX Listing Rules, then DPC is required to disclose such information to the market.

= as per the rules

The Directors confirm that as at the date of this letter DPC is in full compliance with its obligations under Rule 10.1.1. In providing this confirmation, the Directors have specifically considered the matters listed by NZX Regulation.

= as per the rules


All up another collossal communications failure by the board.

Best they go - they are hopeless

p.s. does anyone know what they are focusing on - RAM? property loans? car loans? anything profitable? shareholder relations? capital raising?

Seems all they do is cover there own backsides while protecting their jobs

[Nitaa]

Hoop.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Companies that have nothing to hide are only more than happy to answer and return calls. Visa versa applies.

Although i bailed out of this stock some time ago (sp at just over $2.50 for a small loss) i had concerns then. I personally felt the same thing happened to me. When asked BK for a striaght answer in reference to him selling to Bridgecorp etc he basically said he was not prepared to discuss.

In fact i was a big fan of BK for a long time. I took himn as sincere, clever etc but i personally felt he changed and got super greedy when he became involved in 42 below. He saw other people expoliting investors and though f.. it ill do the same. This is oinly my opinion of couse.

Moving on a few years DPC is all but gone imo. Some of it will come out in the wash but only after most investors get scalped along the way.

I hope someone, (a shareholder) can ask the3 simple question of how much DPC have invested into Queenstown and how their investment is doing. Somehow i do not think anyone will be able to shed light on it this week. For the sake of the investoirs i hope i am completely wrong.

discl. some of this is my own personal views and information i have obtained through normal day to day discussions. Please do your own research as i am not a qualified advisor

[Hoop]

Thank you Dsurf ...nice translation :)

Nita...I too was a BK fan, but went anti about the same time as you did. It seemed the whole market did as the share price starting falling from that time onwards. (September 2005, Bridgecorp/Hugh Green/BK shanangins and early December 2005 BK announced his falling on his sword {resignation})

[Steve]

Thank you Dsurf ...nice translation :)

Nita...I too was a BK fan, but went anti about the same time as you did. It seemed the whole market did as the share price starting falling from that time onwards. (September 2005, Bridgecorp/Hugh Green/BK shanangins and early December 2005 BK announced his falling on his sword {resignation})

I went off BK in the early '90s with the demise of General Properties. His actions at that time showed that he is able to perform in times of boom, but appears to be somewhat impotent when the music stops playing...

[James Bond]

I went off BK in the early '90s with the demise of General Properties. His actions at that time showed that he is able to perform in times of boom, but appears to be somewhat impotent when the music stops playing...

General properties, BK how does that work?
By the way BK resigned the day he did the deal with Bridgecorp the only problem was the DPC board did not accept the resignation till 6 months later.

[Nitaa]

Queenstown? Anyone ask the question? The reason i havent is they are unlikely to give information to someone such as myself who doesnt hold the stock

[James Bond]

Queenstown? Anyone ask the question? The reason i havent is they are unlikely to give information to someone such as myself who doesnt hold the stock

Nita, You might want to ask that question before you buy DPC shares, they should give you that answer regardless of whether you own the stock or not?
:D

[Nitaa]

Nita, You might want to ask that question before you buy DPC shares, they should give you that answer regardless of whether you own the stock or not?
:D
In a normal sense you are quite correct. However, my feeling is that this is not a normal situation.

[Billy Boy]

Nita
DPC only have a small mature exposure in Q,town. They are not into any new developments or dicky positions with what they hold. I cannot remember exactly the name of the holding they have but it is residual.
I do know they have an interest in some development land. But are sitting on that. Land is not dropping in price around the area, quite the reverse.
The developers that are in the sh*t here are those who are in the process of building and are trying to sell some bloody awful dog boxes and ideas that are 20 years ahead of the times.
Cheers BB
Dis hold DPC

[James Bond]

In a normal sense you are quite correct. However, my feeling is that this is not a normal situation.

Nita, A piece of advice, when dealing in the stockmarket, dont feel, THINK!

You cant become emotional about stocks, and DPC's problems are cyclical, they were allways going to happen, in fact BK told the board in 2005 that the tough times were coming and that they should prepare. Quite normal really. I am sure if you google BK you can find plenty of articles of BK predicting gloom in the finance sector.

[Nitaa]

Nita, A piece of advice, when dealing in the stockmarket, dont feel, THINK!

You cant become emotional about stocks, and DPC's problems are cyclical, they were allways going to happen, in fact BK told the board in 2005 that the tough times were coming and that they should prepare. Quite normal really. I am sure if you google BK you can find plenty of articles of BK predicting gloom in the finance sector.Let me rephrase that for you. I THINK and i base my decisions on what i know best. If in doubt i stay out. Yes i may miss out on a bargain and DPC may be one of them.

I come from a background of having to take emotions out of the equation so you do not need to worry about me in that regard. Unfortuntately the english language can mean that you say one thing but actually mean something else.

DPC needs a dramtic rethink IMO. Although reverse mortages will prove popular in the future they are a long term plan. What DPC is having problems is short term.

BB. Interesting comment thanks. As a queentowner you will have your finger on the pulse much more than i ever will with regards to property in that region. If you are correct then my view is overly drastic. However, if DPC intend to sit on property then this will not solve their short term cash flow problem. In fact it will only contribute to their demise.

I give DPC 3 months

[Billy Boy]

You give them 3 months.
I think they will pull through this credit squeeze and reshape slowly.
They still have good money out via Senat and that no doubt is there
cash flow right now. They are not makeing new car loans, just winding
down the book. They still have assets to sell.
65 mill out and 25% of that in property which most of is returning cash.
I think they report about end of May. We should all get a better picture
then.
At 50c a share. I am using my spec money on them.
Queenstown is certainly not their problem right now.
Cheers BB

[Steve]

General properties, BK how does that work?


Originates from the Dorchester & Smythe days. The companies office may still have the records on file, should you wish to do a search...

[COLIN]

Let me rephrase that for you. I THINK and i base my decisions on what i know best. If in doubt i stay out. Yes i may miss out on a bargain and DPC may be one of them.

I come from a background of having to take emotions out of the equation so you do not need to worry about me in that regard. Unfortuntately the english language can mean that you say one thing but actually mean something else.

DPC needs a dramtic rethink IMO. Although reverse mortages will prove popular in the future they are a long term plan. What DPC is having problems is short term.

BB. Interesting comment thanks. As a queentowner you will have your finger on the pulse much more than i ever will with regards to property in that region. If you are correct then my view is overly drastic. However, if DPC intend to sit on property then this will not solve their short term cash flow problem. In fact it will only contribute to their demise.

I give DPC 3 months
Nita - you mention reverse mortgage business - are DPC intio that in a significant way? I ask because I read somewhere yesterday that Sentinel, who apparently have 80% of this business, are winding back their involvement. With high interest rates compounding, no mortgage or interest repayments due, declining property prices, and lengthening life expectancy, the gloss of this business is apparently beginning to wear off.

[Steve]

Nita - you mention reverse mortgage business - are DPC intio that in a significant way? I ask because I read somewhere yesterday that Sentinel, who apparently have 80% of this business, are winding back their involvement. With high interest rates compounding, no mortgage or interest repayments due, declining property prices, and lengthening life expectancy, the gloss of this business is apparently beginning to wear off.

Yes, Sentinal are the market leader and I believe that they have indicated that their business model has not been moving with the times...

[Deev8]

you mention reverse mortgage business - are DPC intio that in a significant way? You can find some information on Dorchester's Reverse Mortgage offering here:
Dorchester - Reverse Mortgages and Home Equity Release (http://www.dorchester.co.nz/Insurance--amp;-Savings/Products/Reverse-Mortgages/MenuId/125.aspx?PageId=112)

[Billy Boy]

Nita
DPC only have a small mature exposure in Q,town. They are not into any new developments or dicky positions with what they hold. I cannot remember exactly the name of the holding they have but it is residual.
I do know they have an interest in some development land. But are sitting on that. Land is not dropping in price around the area, quite the reverse.
Cheers BB
Dis hold DPC
Nita
The above is very wrong :o:o
I was digging in council records this morning and found an interesting thing. So I kept digging and found some more.
The council have (for public use) old agenda,s and on those old agenda,s
Who sold and bought what and how much for and who put up the money,
etc etc....
I find... Dorchester have interest's in :-
Alpine village (Units)
Beacon (I think is one of wensley's) Managed Apartments
A Gibston valley winery
Queenstown Lodge Hotel Gold ridge (hotel)
Sherwood Manner (hotel)
There may be some others but did not have time to search.
It seams about $60 - $70 mill dollars involved all up.
Word has it that there could be some mortagee sales on Alpine Village &,
Beacon.
Sorry for previous post
Cheers BB

[Nitaa]

Billy Boy.

No problem and thanks for your reply. The best thing to come out of it is the fact that someone bothered to look into it a bit further. Therefore you are in a better shape to make an informed decision.

[The Good Oil]

I noticed in todays news (Good Returns) DPC was of the intended purchasers of Vestar the beleagered Investment firm owned by MFS, But arent DPC selling the other Advisory firm Equity Investment advisers & Stockbrokers? At Least that is what they said earlier this year. Am i confused or is DPC's Management ??

Cn anyone with facts help out?

[POSSUM THE CAT]

The Good Oil these two companies are quite different animals

[dsurf]

I noticed in todays news (Good Returns) DPC was of the intended purchasers of Vestar the beleagered Investment firm owned by MFS, But arent DPC selling the other Advisory firm Equity Investment advisers & Stockbrokers? At Least that is what they said earlier this year. Am i confused or is DPC's Management ??

Cn anyone with facts help out?

Yep I can

At the AGM on 23 August 2007, ie 9 months ago,

"Chief executive officer, Mr Andrew Walker, detailed a streamlined future direction for the company that was the result of a 12 month strategic review.

“A key part of the review was to identify the most appropriate strategy for the company. We concluded that in order to move forward, we needed to simplify and focus the company on those businesses with the greatest potential.

“Our future focus is on non-consumer related finance activities, the home equity release market and savings products.

We are exiting the Auckland used car market, shutting down sub-scale operations, and selling the investment advisory business and non core property assets."

..... The investment advisory business is Equity & Moneyonline Investment Advisors. It buys interest rate ( a lot of finace company paper), equities etc for clients. It was probably worth a lot in August 07 when the credit crunch had not hit NZ.

Another announcement later said it would be sold first quarter 08"

Given that most clients will have lost on the finance company paper & thier shares I wonder if is profitable or loss-making. It would be nice to know such trivial matters from a public company!

Anyway CEO inaction has cost shareholders at least $2m ( the difference between the original FY NPAT & the last one) in my opinion.

The board must go - they are a boys club that will drain this company dry and the CEO is a clown

[mskv]

1 May 2008
Company Announcement

DORCHESTER PACIFIC ANTICIPATES INCREASED PROVISIONING

The board of Dorchester Pacific today advised that the previous profit
guidance of $3 to $4 million for the financial year ended 31 March 2008 will
not be achieved as a result of trading conditions in a difficult finance
market and a lower than anticipated contribution from St Laurence Limited.

The directors also advised that given a recent deterioration in the property
market which they believe is significant and unlikely to improve in the short
term, they have determined to take additional provisions on property loans.
This provisioning takes into account the longer time it is now expected to
take to realise some property positions. A review is also underway of the
carrying value of investments, including the 25% holding in St Laurence
Limited which may further impact the FY08 profit.

Chairman of Dorchester Pacific, Mr Barry Graham, said: "There has been a
deterioration in property asset values against which lending is secured and
we anticipate this could result in an increase in provisioning of around $5
million after tax. The review of the value of St Laurence may result in a
non-operating impact to shareholder's equity.

"Cash holdings continue to remain consistently above $30 million and we
maintain positive matching between our debenture obligations and incoming
cash from the repayment of loan receivables. We are therefore currently
comfortable in our ability to repay debenture obligations as they fall due.
We have maintained a diversified loan book, with our top five loans
accounting for only around 25% of our total receivables with none of these
being inter-related parties."

The company also today announced that CEO Andrew Walker has resigned to take
up a role at Auguste Holdings Limited. Auguste Holdings holds a substantial
majority of the shares in Auguste Finance Limited, which is the majority
shareholder in St Laurence Limited and a substantial shareholder in
Dorchester Pacific. Dorchester Pacific holds a 25% stake in St Laurence.

Mr Andrew Walker said: "Having set the path forward for Dorchester in a
difficult finance market I feel that the time is right for me to move on and
to take on a new challenge. I am proud to be leaving the company in a strong
and liquid position."

Mr Graham said: "Andrew's services will be available to Dorchester through
his new role at Auguste Holdings which will ensure continuity while new
management arrangements are put in place.

"Going forward we will continue to simplify the business and reduce costs.
We will de-emphasise capital intensive activities and focus on new business
opportunities which leverage the company's existing expertise and
infrastructure.

"On behalf of Dorchester, I would like to thank Andrew for his leadership
over a period of major market upheaval and uncertainty. He has contributed
significantly to re-engineering Dorchester Pacific for a changed market
environment."

ENDS

What have we been saying the current management have destroyed any value in Dorchester.
They are having to write down St Laurence, now that's a surprise, NOT.
Did the CEO describe it as the "best deal he had ever done", hate to see his other deals.

[lewinsky]

Is anyone really surprised by todays announcement?
It was inevitable that Walker would go before the Annual Result was announced and certainly before the Annual Meeting.
I am really looking forward to DSurf's interpretation of todays announcement.
I am not looking forward to receiving the Annual Report and reading the payments to Directors and Executives.
I own the minimum number of shares in DPC to attend the Annual Meeting, which I think should be made to coincide with the dates of the Comedy Festival.

Lew

[Dr_Who]

This has to be one of my worst investments in the portfolio. I will attend the AGM and ask some hard questions. Best thing is for DPC to sell all the assets and return cash to shareholders. :mad:

It strikes me as odd that Brynes continues to buy and average down. Does he know something we dont? The only reassurance is that Stl, HG and Brynes are all in this and if it goes under, we all go with it.

[Nitaa]

The hits just keep in coming

DPC to be in the 20's by end of June? Next news from DPC will be bad I am afraid.

AW said he is proud of his achievements. The company is very liquid (except shareholders value has been decimated) Hmm. Glad he didnt have a bad couple of years.

Again, lack of info i am afraid....going...going..gone?

[bermuda]

Nita,
I hope you are not buying. You cant turn a profit if enquiries are diminishing. A mate of mine who works for them said it is very hard when the enquiry level is down 60 %.

Why bother with this stock which is under pressure?

Nita,
I hope you took the opportunity to get out in March.

[Dr_Who]

DPC has a market cap of $14 M, NTA $1.70(?) and cash in the bank of $30 M. Am I missing something or is DPC trading way below NTA and cash holding?

[mskv]

[QUOTE=Nita;197697]The hits just keep in coming

I'm astonished that AW thinks he thinks he has left the company in a strong position. I wonder what he considers a poor position.

The fact is he has left DPC with
- no direction
- a $30m investment in ST Laurence that is probably at best worth $10m
- $35m less cash
- Shareholders facing large writedowns in property (which when he started was his new direction.
- unusually large loan exposures to Queenstown property

In defence of AW, when he started he had no finace sector experience, no CEO experience, no management experience, yet the board appointed him.

The board must take responsibility for this and some of the ludicrious decisions in the last year and a bit

I really wonder what role Kevin Podmore has employed AW to do?

[Billy Boy]

Dont be to quick to judge DPC yet....
Lets get a look at their book at F/Y and I hope they dont try to fudge them.
They are cleaning out the cuppboards in regards ceo's etc, they dont have immediate problems in repaying their debentures. and the assets here in Q,town are all earners and established (except beacon & Alpine village but they should earn over the ski season)
We need a clear picture on the/any defaulters
and as bermuda always says " the info is there is you look hard"
BB

[mskv]

Dont be to quick to judge DPC yet....
Lets get a look at their book at F/Y and I hope they dont try to fudge them.
They are cleaning out the cuppboards in regards ceo's etc, they dont have immediate problems in repaying their debentures. and the assets here in Q,town are all earners and established (except beacon & Alpine village but they should earn over the ski season)
We need a clear picture on the/any defaulters
and as bermuda always says " the info is there is you look hard"
BB

I hope you are right about repaying debentures. Not certain you can trust they know what is happening. Have they only just realised that property values are falling. To put out two profit downgrades in a month is unbelievable.

Do they really know there liquidity profile. Has it accounted for the slower and lower property sales?

The major shareholders need to act and ensure that they get some experience in at CEO. Maybe it would be in the best interests of shareholders to put it into voluntary administration and appoint an administrator.

[Nitaa]

Nita,
I hope you took the opportunity to get out in March.Bermuda. I got out of this stock some 2 to 3 years ago when it was over $2.60. I still lost a little bit but it was negligable

[Nitaa]

DPC has a market cap of $14 M, NTA $1.70(?) and cash in the bank of $30 M. Am I missing something or is DPC trading way below NTA and cash holding?Yes you are missing something. No good having $30m cash if your debts are more or your asset value is colapsing or the money you have loaned are high risk and there are mortgagee sales and the loan amount is higher than the value of the asset. Or your investment into other companies are going peer shape. Anything else.

How is there debt to equity ratio? They talk about $30m cash or should i say cash equivalent.

The only ones who will make money out of this stock is a select few

I have been saying and giving some clues for months about this stock. In this sector there continues to a be a lack disclosure. Why would anyone want to play russian Roulette with this stock without nknowing much about it. It is committing suicide.

There is a saying..If it looks too good to be true it most problably is.

[dsurf]

All announcements from this board are BS and totally unreliable

why anyone would believe NTA as published is beyond me.

Can anyone tell me any profitable activity that DPC does that earns a profit?

thank god the clown has gone

but the boat will go down under the weight of the board who remain

Never believe anything the mangement of this company say

also how many millions is the loss going to be?

mmm 6m profit announced

then 3 to 4m profit

then "we will not make 3 or 4m profit" & will not give a forecast - why not - because it is a huge loss coming.

This company has not made an operting profit for years - can't wait for it to disappear!

[POSSUM THE CAT]

The bigest mistake they made was getting tied up with ST Laurence, sounds like they are going to write down their ST Laurence holdings by a large percentage.

[glennj]

Not sure why people are still shareholders in this company. It's been clear for a long time that shareholders were being disrespected and that the company would be entering a more difficult cimate. Surely a sell signal?
I quit the last of my positions back in March 2007 for a decent profit and am very glad that I didn't hang on to see profits disappear.

It's worth storing in the memory banks just who has been involved with DPC at both board and executive level.

[Billy Boy]

It's worth storing in the memory banks just who has been involved with DPC at both board and executive level.
Agree.....

BB

[dsurf]

Not sure why people are still shareholders in this company. It's been clear for a long time that shareholders were being disrespected and that the company would be entering a more difficult cimate. Surely a sell signal?
I quit the last of my positions back in March 2007 for a decent profit and am very glad that I didn't hang on to see profits disappear.

It's worth storing in the memory banks just who has been involved with DPC at both board and executive level.

Is it worth a new thread - "Management & Executives of failed finance companies"?

[dsurf]

REL: 1556 HRS Viking Capital Limited



GENERAL: VIK: Viking Slams Dorchester Announcement



?

PRESS RELEASE



Viking Slams Dorchester Announcement



We have been approached by a number of members of the Media to comment on the

Dorchester Pacific Press Release dated 1st May 2008.



As a significant shareholder, we wish to state our position so different

media do not get a different understanding.



Our position is as follows:



Until the appointment of Walker, Dorchester had been managed very

conservatively with respect to its capital ratios and lending policies. The

company had also been diversified so that it could meet its targets even when

conditions in the finance sector worsened. This situation was predicted by

previous management. Walker and the board out of ignorance changed the

business model by:



1. Making large loans on illiquid assets.



2. Investing precious capital reserves in an ill considered manner.



If they had stuck to the business model they would have had the opportunity

to make excellent profits now. Dorchester would have been in a vastly

different financial position to other finance businesses which have failed,

because it would have had financial reserves. With less competition, rising

interest rates and an increasingly desperate base of potential borrowers the

time would have been ripe. Instead, they squandered that opportunity. With

experienced management, a new board and support from its funding base,

Dorchester would still be a fantastic business, but it desperately needs

quality management and governance.



Announcement

We are stunned by the announcements and do not believe that this is an

acceptable statement from a Board of a public company.



The statement concerning the write down of the St Laurence is bewildering.

Only 2 months ago Dorchester made its first profit downgrade announcement

without any reference to a revaluation of their investment in St Laurence.

Three directors of Dorchester, namely Barry Graham, Kevin Podmore and Andrew

Walker are also directors of St Laurence Ltd. Surely they would have known

of the deterioration of Dorchester's investment at that time.



To announce a write down of the St Laurence investment only one year after

the original acquisition is unacceptable. The euphoric statements from the

Chairman and CEO ("This deal was the best deal I have ever done ") at the

time are now quite absurd.



Clearly the wasting of $20.m cash at that critical time was a very poor

decision.



Vikings position, along with many other Dorchester shareholders was that the

price paid was too high and this has been borne out.



There may be more matters to surface about this deal and many people are

watching this with interest.



We are deeply concerned about the overall state of the company and the

performance of the Board and the CEO who has now resigned. We continue to be

concerned with their lack of transparency in company statements. For

example, you would expect more detailed information on the reasons for the

resignation / termination and the date of his departure to be stated. It

would further be normal to state what the financial implications, if any, for

the company were from this resignation, e.g. bonuses etc.



We believe it is incumbent on the board to advise the market their plan for

the management of the Company in the short and medium terms.



We are equally concerned about the impact of the announcement on the future

of the Company and the implications for investors, staff and minority

shareholders. We will make further comments early next week.

[golden city]

viking slam dpc.. but I am here to slam viking..about bio... same things heppend here..

[COLIN]

[QUOTE=belgarion;197
Will see what the market does and perhaps buy some at todays low. Volumes are pretty thin still.

discl: recent holder and buying.[/QUOTE]

Not a wise move, my friend. Dare I remind you of FTX? This one is also headed for oblivion.
Running downhill, trying to catch a rolling cheese, can result in one falling flat on one's face.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

The AGM will be very interesting is mr Byrne planning to dramatically change the board he has A lot of shares and possibly accumulating more

[The Good Oil]

viking slam dpc.. but I am here to slam viking..about bio... same things heppend here..

GC do you really think Vik didn't slam ICP-Bio, cause it would have. Just would not have done in in public, as they have a consructive working relationship. Unfortunately the DPC board and Management have totally dislike for VIK and see them as a threat, so as Viking expected, when DPC management stuffed up, Vik stepped up and slammed them for six. Fair enough after all BK and Vik accurately predicted what faliures DPC would have. I wonder what Hugh Green is thinking today? Will he and BK lay down their guns long enough to to fix DPC, because, to be frank, I dont know, 2 better candidates to take on this task and succeed. Interested in other opinions? Who can fix DPC's deep seated problems?, name your candidates!:eek::eek:.

[Dr_Who]

For the first time I will have to agree with the announcement by BK. It is totally unacceptable and disgraceful. The board on DPC should be sacked and replaced!

I am still wondering why Brynes is accummulating stock. This game is not over yet. Abit like watching daytime soap opera.

I will be at the AGM to give them a blasting!

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Dr Who at least those two have got no conection to the ST Laurence mess

[lewinsky]

This is going to be great. The Annual Meeting is going to be a ripper. I am thinking of selling my proxies 1 share at a time on trademe. The returns will be better than than owning shares in DPC. Their graph looks like the downhill ski run at Coronet Peak.
More stone throwing next week.
In the red corner Barry Graham, happy to be a director when Brent King ran Dorchester and nod at the appropriate time and happy to turn on him after he left. In the blue corner BK who unloaded his shares to Petrocevic at $4 a share and struck a few nerves.
VIK are right to ask about the termination / resignation exit of A Walker.

LEW

[Steve]

I hope you are right about repaying debentures. Not certain you can trust they know what is happening. Have they only just realised that property values are falling. To put out two profit downgrades in a month is unbelievable.

Do they really know there liquidity profile. Has it accounted for the slower and lower property sales?

I wonder if the latest downgrade is a result of the current year-end audit that will be underway as we speak?

Can't wait for the annual result...

As I have previously said, if they have even half-decent finance company software, they should be able to do a liquidity analysis at the push of a button.

[Ears]

Walker is not being replaced.
No rights issue.
No tie up with St Laurence.
NTA at least $1.10.
Liquid, and can meet on-going obligations.
Byrnes buying.
Now a very small Company, declining business.
Has talked about establishing a niche debt collection business, utilising its existing resources.

Looks like its being readied for merger or T/O to me. Good listing opportunity for someone?

Disclaimer: I may have made this up.

[Nitaa]

I wonder if the latest downgrade is a result of the current year-end audit that will be underway as we speak?

Can't wait for the annual result...

As I have previously said, if they have even half-decent finance company software, they should be able to do a liquidity analysis at the push of a button.There may be no annual meeting.

[Dr_Who]

I hope you are right Ears. Where did you get the NTA of $1.10 taking out STL?

I have a feeling this is primed for a T/O.

[Lizard]

Perhaps that's the problem:
a) software isn't half-decent and it's been turning out rubbish
b) there's no software - mgnt use their thumbs and guts

(Been to a few such companies and they're frequently under-invested in IT and as a result are far from foward looking and have woeful levels of accuracy.)

(Thanks for the concern colin. C and V are making me bullish in this space.)

I think you could safely assume they are still using Finzsoft software (FIN:NZX).

[Ears]

I hope you are right Ears. Where did you get the NTA of $1.10 taking out STL?

I have a feeling this is primed for a T/O.

Graham told me!

[COLIN]

I thought that St. Laurence might be adversely affected by the latest DPC developments but I notice that SLPF shares (Unlisted) have actually risen above their issue price since the issue closed - 75&#37; filled. (The existing shares were selling below the price of the rights issue before closing date.)
The SLPF notes convert to ordinary shares in December.
DPC are writing down their investment in St. Laurence; St. Laurence will no doubt write down its investment in DPC, thereby reducing further the value of DPC's investment in St. Laurence - where does it all end!

[Snapper]

I thought that St. Laurence might be adversely affected by the latest DPC developments but I notice that SLPF shares (Unlisted) have actually risen above their issue price since the issue closed - 75% filled. (The existing shares were selling below the price of the rights issue before closing date.)
The SLPF shares convert to St. Laurence shares in December. DPC are writing down their investment in St. Laurence; St. Laurence will no doubt write down its investment in DPC, thereby reducing further the value of DPC's investment in St. Laurence - where does it all end! I guess we will have a better idea when the St. Laurence results are released - due soon.

SLPF is not St Laurence but ST Laurence manage it. Primarily commercial property exposure.

[Ears]

DPC & St L have no future together in my opinion. I expect a mutual withdrawal.

Further to my previous posts....

Walker was in the news 29 Jan.

Headline "Walker expects big shakedown in finance industry"

Within the article he said..."We will see a number of finance companies that don't collapse, but say, 'we've had enough"

DPC is obviously in that category.

[COLIN]

SLPF is not St Laurence but ST Laurence manage it. Primarily commercial property exposure.

St. Laurence Ltd is much more than just a manager of St. Laurence Property & Finance Ltd (SLPF) - it is the sole shareholder and a substantial noteholder in SLPF. The last published accounts of SLPF, as at 30/9/07, show Ordinary share capital plus Reserves plus Retained earnings amounting in total to over $94,000,000 - all accruing to St. Laurence, along with their share of the then existing notes plus their share of the new notes. (St Laurence Ltd advised that they would be subscribing in full for their entitlement, both as a shareholder and as a holder of existing notes.) So, all in all, I would say that St. Laurence has a substantial financial stake in SLPF.

How St. Laurence finances its investment in SLPF is a matter for conjecture, given that it does not publish its accounts, but it would be a safe bet that it has substantial borrowings - probably secured largely by charges over its SLPF investments. I'm sure that the worth of St. Laurence Ltd. is quite bound up with its involvement in SLPF.

(Just a correction to my earlier post: the SLPF notes convert to SLPF shares - not St. Laurence Ltd shares -on 1 December 2008.)

[mskv]

I wonder if the latest downgrade is a result of the current year-end audit that will be underway as we speak?

Can't wait for the annual result...

As I have previously said, if they have even half-decent finance company software, they should be able to do a liquidity analysis at the push of a button.

Software isn't the issue. Like all software, garbage in garbage out!!

This is more like they don't know how many of their loans aren't going to settle on due date.

Particularly the large loans they have done in Queenstown and Christchurch.

[Ears]

I agree, software discussion is rubbish.


January 2008

Andrew Walker, chief executive of listed finance company Dorchester Pacific, said this week the $20 billion finance company industry may shrink by half or more within two years.

One scenario could see it virtually disappear, he said.

"The retail market hasn't reached the tipping point, but it's getting close to being all over."

He said the industry had mostly funded itself from retail debentures and if confidence collapsed then it would be all over quite quickly.

Everything depended on re-investment rates as C+M discovered.

Alternative funding sources were not viable, due to a storm generated by the US subprime mortgage crisis that has knocked international credit and equity markets, concurrent with the local industry crisis.

The reinvestment rate, the proportion of investors who roll over their investments, fell at Dorchester to 21 per cent in October, but revived to 40 per cent last month. Pre-crisis it was 65-73 per cent across the industry.

"It's very simple mathematics. If it (the reinvestment rate) goes to zero and with average debentures 18 to 24 months, then in that time the industry won't exist," Mr Walker said.

"If the long-run reinvestment rate is 50 per cent, then the industry is going to halve."

The industry had to change its model but that would not be easy as raising money from banks or through equity was equally difficult in the current climate, influenced by the international credit crunch.

Mr Walker said he wouldn't be surprised to see more finance company collapses.

Others will simply close shop. Mergers were not really an option as finance companies' only real assets were their lending teams. (With nothing to lend).

He said finance firms had to boost cash by selling assets, establish funding lines before trouble knocked, cut costs, and nurture their investors with hard information, all of which Dorchester had done."


Since Walker wrote this, the market has deteriorated, & Dorchester has closed its funding lines,(Green & Auguste). Reinvestment rate would be lower.

No future in the finance industry, at their size. What else have they got, zilch.

However probably still sound. Byrnes knows that! Just needs an orderly collection of loans. Don't need a CEO to do that!

Thats my opinion, whats yours.

[The Good Oil]

"Dorchester division sale expected soon
By DAVID HARGREAVES - The Dominion Post | Wednesday, 09 January 2008

Listed finance company Dorchester Pacific might have its investment services division sold before the end of February as it reorganises itself because of tough finance company sector conditions.


Chief executive Andrew Walker said yesterday due diligence on the investment services business had run through the Christmas period and continues this month.

Up to 10 parties originally expressed interest, but this number had been culled for due diligence.

The official target for sale, thought likely to raise between $2.5 million and $5 million, is the end of Dorchester's March financial year."
__________________________________________________ ______________
_
What year did he say this business would sell?
If they get at least the 2.5 million suggested, then that could come in handy.
No wonder he has fallen on his sword, Barry Graham has to go as well.
Time for a right royal rogering, long live the King!, the King, I suggest will return.

[The Good Oil]

Software isn't the issue. Like all software, garbage in garbage out!!

This is more like they don't know how many of their loans aren't going to settle on due date.

Particularly the large loans they have done in Queenstown and Christchurch.

MSKV, you sound like you know somthing we mere mortals dont?
How big are these loans?
Are they problimatic?
Could it just be normal loans, repaid at maturity, creating No issues?

You are right about DPC's software, but my friends tell me that its not just DPC's software that is the problem, its their staff that got issued DPC share north of $2.00 and are a bit p---ed about it. OUCH!!!!:eek:

[Ears]

Walker fallen on his sword. Why do you say that? Mutual agreement I'd say.

What do you expect him to do at DPC? Can hardly grow the finance business can he! Its stuffed! Not his fault!

[dsurf]

Walker fallen on his sword. Why do you say that? Mutual agreement I'd say.

What do you expect him to do at DPC? Can hardly grow the finance business can he! Its stuffed! Not his fault!

Who's fault is it if it is not the CEO's & board. I think AW should get a huge payout of several $m for guiding the company so well and being such a huge value generator during his tenure!

[Ears]

I said it was not his fault that the finance industry is stuffed!

Sure, getting into property was bad timing, but at least he got out of the car business. King sold DB, didn't get out of the car business & was responsible for growth, well below the industry average.

Whats important now, is the future. What do you see?

[dsurf]

A company with fixed outgoings and a lack of transparent ongoing earnings. It need to change at board level & be recapitalised to survive in it's own right.

Would be amusing to see BK buy the company back for around 10c a share!

[Nitaa]

A company with fixed outgoings and a lack of transparent ongoing earnings. It need to change at board level & be recapitalised to survive in it's own right.

Would be amusing to see BK buy the company back for around 10c a share!This would not suprise me except if he paid 10 cps. More like 1 cps

[Ears]

I would be surprised if BK could afford much more than 1 cent per share. VIK seems to have poured his money into a bottomless pit in BIO.

[lewinsky]

BK sells DPC shares to Bridgecorp for $4.00 a share.
BK sells his holdings in DPC to VIK for around $2.00 a share in a float that sees him get a great remuneration package.
VIK looking to raise $20 million through Viking Bonds.
BK continues to slam DPC CEO and Board thus causing share price to stay low.
BK butys back DPC at substantially lower price than NTA?
Cofffee may have been a bit strong this morning.
LEW.

The Teflon King strikes again??

[Dr_Who]

The Teflon King strikes again??

If tBK can get STL and HG to sell they DPC is his to the taking. What a bargain!

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Anyone prepared to start a shareholders resolution to have all or most of board members stand for relection? Especially the Chairman?

[Dr_Who]

Anyone prepared to start a shareholders resolution to have all or most of board members stand for relection? Especially the Chairman?

You have my vote!

Read the chairman's comments in the papers today.

Dorchester chief defends decision over St Laurence :mad::mad::confused::confused:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4511416a13.html

[Ears]

Never mind. we have... Senate Collections Ltd

One of the new business opportunities, which leverage the company's existing expertise and infrastructure!

[mskv]

[QUOTE=The Good Oil;198127]MSKV, you sound like you know somthing we mere mortals dont?
How big are these loans?
Are they problimatic?
Could it just be normal loans, repaid at maturity, creating No issues?

No more knowledge than the rest of you. I was commenting on information previously talked about on this thread. Apparantly they are problematic.

[mskv]

Never mind. we have... Senate Collections Ltd

One of the new business opportunities, which leverage the company's existing expertise and infrastructure!

Interesting new business but I d't know if there is any money in it.

Your comment on the finance market failing is correct. The only problem is that Dorchester was well positioned to survive the expected wave of failures but AW's and the boards decisions (that we know about) have put it seriously at risk.

Conspirousy theory: Was AW a plant into DPC all along for St Laurence, ie to run the business down and allow STL to acquire it cheap. The plan then went sour when Stl ran out of money to complete there end?????
Too much coffee today!!!

[Ears]

DPC & St L have no future together!

DPC no CEO. DPC has a few small activities. But nothing to justify a listing, imho.

But hang on, whats that ...Ears hears something coming, ..hooves....Could it be the White Knight!

[lewinsky]

A white knight or a black king

[lewinsky]

More spleen venting by the VI---King.
Reasonable questions. Interesting to see what the response is.
I would have thought Barry Graham may have a teeny weeny conflict of interest here.
Do I wear my STL hat on today or my Dorchester Cap with the backward d.
Is this the time honourable men fall on their swords?
ie before the Annual Meeting.

LEW

[Steve]

More spleen venting by the VI---King.
Reasonable questions. Interesting to see what the response is.
I would have thought Barry Graham may have a teeny weeny conflict of interest here.
Do I wear my STL hat on today or my Dorchester Cap with the backward d.
Is this the time honourable men fall on their swords?
ie before the Annual Meeting.

LEW

How much of DPC does VIK still hold?

[James Bond]

How much of DPC does VIK still hold?

4% but i suspect it could be much more very soon.

[Nitaa]

did my post get deleted with regards to king buying back DPC at a bargain price?

[lewinsky]

More rumblings in today's Herald.
I would be interested in your views Nita.
Or was this the post suggesting a price between 1cent and 10 cents.

Lew

[Hoop]

Addition to Lewinsky's post. A interesting piece in today's NZHerald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/3/story.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10508929&pnum=0)written by Adam Bennett.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VIKING ATTACK
Last week wasn't a good one for listed finance company Dorchester Pacific.
The company's shares fell to a record low of 36c after it issued its second profit warning in three months, said it expected a $5 million after-tax increase in provisioning on its property loans, and said chief executive Andrew Walker was moving on after just two years.
It's safe to say Dorchester is not the only finance company facing a revaluation of its property lending portfolio given what's happening in that market. The company now says its March year profit will be $3 to $4 million, down from $6 million previously advised.
This has all given fresh ammunition to Dorchester founder and disaffected shareholder Brent King of Viking Capital.
King has for some time been critical of Dorchester's direction, which has raised eyebrows, as he has been steadily selling off his holding, and getting ever decreasing prices for the shares.
Walker reckons his work at Dorchester, putting in place a simplified structure and effectively downsizing the company, was sensible given the deteriorating market conditions.
However, Walker points out he is going to "friends and family" rather than heading for the hills, taking up a role of investment and portfolio management at Kevin Podmore and Mike O'Sullivan's Auguste Holdings, the ultimate owner of a 75 per cent stake in St Laurence and a 20 per cent stake in Dorchester, which in turn owns 25 per cent of St Laurence.
NO BASKET CASE
While the likes of the Shareholders Association's Bruce Sheppard, a man with Viking tendencies of his own, have joined Brent King in bagging Walker's performance and that of the company, Kapiti Coast broker Chris Lee reckons that Dorchester is far from a basket case.
Lee believes the company will likely write down the value of its property loans by a far heftier amount than indicated last week in a bid to clear the decks, and he reckons that's what a number of finance companies should be doing.
However, even with the deeper writedowns, he says the company's net asset backing will still be above $1, and he points out it has $33 million in cash on hand.
With its shares closing yesterday at 40c, someone so inclined could virtually take it over using its own money, says Lee, adding that this would not have escaped the attention of Podmore and Hugh Green who between them hold 40 per cent of the company.

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It seems to suggest that AW found it tough as CEO and now going back home to live with his parents. This is going to leave DPC rudderless again.
When STL got involved with DPC it came as a surprise by financial insiders as to why STL would desire to be in bed with this small niche unrelated company. It seems STL (DPC's white knight) has changed it's strategic direction with DPC and a future merger is off... this situation must mean that DPC has become more vulnerable to corporate predators.

It has all the factors in place for takeover.

1......CEO going back to parent company indicating they have lost interest in DPC as it is considered too hard and expensive to kick start this company or the job has been done (whatever it was).
2......Bits has been sold off, DPC is now a fat cash-cow..unproductive..and is now ready for the meat works. (Share price 40c.. Nett Assets over $1.00)
3......DPC accountant buying into a falling share price
4......BK has stopped selling DPC shares.,,but still bagging the company over poor performance. VIK looking to raise money (Hostile?? or a planned part of T/O or a red-herring?)
5......High disregard to small investors. Small investors kept in the dark regarding DPC restructuring, and hijacking by STL, and the resulting slow creep of shares transferred from disenchanted small investors to an area of owners close within the DPC playing field (exception being BK ?? maybe not?)
6......Adding more to point 5... small investors received no good news all bad news from a company that didn't promote good will has seen a small share investor exodus lowering the share price from 250c - 40c yet no public outrage from Hugh Green???
7.....AW seen from the outside general public as a poor performing CEO..from people in the know (incl Chris Lee) he has done a good job within a hostile environment. His resignation was planned not pushed?
8.....Winding down of company activities
9 ....Large cash reserves ($33 million?)
10...Writedowns maybe over conservative, company maybe worth more than perceived.

Disc Have no DPC shares

[COLIN]

I see they have finally sold Equity Investments, and the other similar bodies, for only $1m plus. Hardly going to make a ripple in the overall pool.

[Nitaa]

did my post get deleted with regards to king buying back DPC at a bargain price?correction...its on another thread

[KJ]

Looks like it's being liquidated to me!!!

[Nitaa]

DPC is very clouded, especially for the average investor. What is going on?
DPC on the brink? I think so
Whats BK motive to openly slag a company that he ad a significant shareholding?
Is BK intending to buy back or takeover DPC through Viking?
How many millions will be written off?
What are the writedowns going to be with their Queenstown investments?
Are DPC true net assets worth at least $1.00 per share? No
will there be more significant bad news before the opposite happens? Yes at 99%
Who will lose? Small shareholders will
Who will win? BK or someone else?

[Lawso]

I sold out of DPC in '05-'06 at prices from 208 to 250cps.
I'm almost tempted to buy back in just so I can watch the fun. I said almost.

[Dr_Who]

All smokes and mirrors. Bunch of tards! They are gonna get a going over come the AGM. :mad::confused:

I am gonna remember those names involved in DPC and will never invest with them in the future. Will advice all my friends so they will also remember the names.

disc: freaking shareholder!

[Nitaa]

All smokes and mirrors. Bunch of tards! They are gonna get a going over come the AGM. :mad::confused:

I am gonna remember those names involved in DPC and will never invest with them in the future. Will advice all my friends so they will also remember the names.

disc: freaking shareholder!DPC may not be the same company come AGM time.

I really dont know what the outcome will be with DPC within 12 months time. There are many different possibilities but i am 100% convinced it wont look the same as it is now.

another profit warning on the horinzon.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

DR Who do you want a nomination for the board

[lewinsky]

9 months to sell a subsidiary for $1.3 million.
What did Equity cost DPC.
The Board must be really stoked with this major sale and so they can now concentrate on the new undisclosed direction for DPC.
Suggested Directors
Mark Byers
Rod Petrecovic
Lisa Lewis
Mark Ellis
and Theresa Gatting

[COLIN]

9 months to sell a subsidiary for $1.3 million.
What did Equity cost DPC.


Don't know what it cost but it stood in their books at $2.1m. Another little write-down.

[Steve]

It was originally purchased from Phil Briggs for shares in DPC from memory. Does Phil still have shares in DPC? I guess that he used to be in the top20 sharehloders list...

[dsurf]

VIK & BK were excluded from the sale process. So BK got an investment advisor working for IRG which is owned by VIK to buy it. VIK then bought it off the advisor.

The circus continues!!!!

[COLIN]

VIK & BK were excluded from the sale process. So BK got an investment advisor working for IRG which is owned by VIK to buy it. VIK then bought it off the advisor.

The circus continues!!!!

And King can't resist another opportunity to use this announcement to further slam DPC in public! These sorts of tactics don't sit well with me, and hardly engender respect for the man.
DPC should consider taking out an injunction against him, if they want to defend their name.

DISC: I have no financial interest in DPC or VIK (perish the thought!)

[lewinsky]

Beautiful,
Dorchester tells its shareholders last year

"Dorchester's investment services businesses, including Equity, Money Online
and NZ Investor, are well positioned to take advantage of the growth in this
market sector. The result for the year was impacted by last year's sale of
Direct Broking and a downturn in brokerage from finance company debentures.
We are expanding the services offered to remove the business' reliance on
brokerage revenue to create more sustainable income based on value added
services and advisory fees", said Mr Walker.

Well positioned to take advantage of the growth in this market segment and we are expanding the services.

Then they announce a sale process that takes nine months and as the financial services sector declines so does the sale price.

They book a loss on the sale.

Then they sell it to a party associated with IRG a subsidiary of VIK.

Who then sells it to VIK at a profit and for a price VIK would have been prepared to pay DPC.

Unfortunately ego's have overriden rationale decision making.

BK must be enjoying having a cold beer over this.

LEW

[The Good Oil]

VIK & BK were excluded from the sale process. So BK got an investment advisor working for IRG which is owned by VIK to buy it. VIK then bought it off the advisor.

The circus continues!!!!

Dsurf, that is an outrageous claim. No where did it say it was an IRG adviser,
He was an EX Spicers adviser operating on his own. He might be a wealthier adviser today, but its a brave man who stands between the DPC board and BK, i don't envy him one bit.

It is a shame that BK has again slagged off DPC, but as a DPC shareholder it is his democratic right to do so, in fact as a large shareholder it is just about an obligation, and he rightly pointed out once again, the DPC shareholder losses out because of DPC negligence.

As a DPC shareholder i cannot understand how DPC can exclude Viking from the buying process. After all it already owns an Investment advisory firm, and clearly had cash to buy it. Under what basis was this decision made? I for one will be at the next AGM to ask BG that question. That adviser effectively stole my money, legaly, with the assistance of DPC, and that is outrageous!!!!

[Dr_Who]

Further tongue thrashing by BK. Either this is very personal and/or T/O target. Whatever it is, it is bloody disgraceful and destroying SH's value. As a shareholder, I am pissed off.

[James Bond]

Further tongue thrashing by BK. Either this is very personal and/or T/O target. Whatever it is, it is bloody disgraceful and destroying SH's value. As a shareholder, I am pissed off.

Dr Who shareholder value is not being eroded by BK tongue lashings it being destroyed by enept DPC management & the board. If they were doing a great job, he wouldnt be commenting. All share prices eventually follow what the company does, not what people say the company is going to do.:mad:

[Steve]

Dr Who shareholder value is not being eroded by BK tongue lashings it being destroyed by enept DPC management & the board. If they were doing a great job, he wouldnt be commenting. All share prices eventually follow what the company does, not what people say the company is going to do.:mad:

Perhaps BK should have been spending more time focussing on VIKs other investments? ;)

[Dr_Who]

I am still scratching my head as to why Brynes has been buying so many shares lately?

[BlackPeter]

I am still scratching my head as to why Brynes has been buying so many shares lately?
maybe to prevent a take over? He must have by now close to 10% of the business?

[Dr_Who]

maybe to prevent a take over? He must have by now close to 10% of the business?

nope.. HG and STL both hold just less then 20% shareholding each, so dont need Brynes to do that. I dont know, but I smell a rat. Too many smoke bombs, cant see further than 1 foot.