PRC Pike River Coal

[Sideshow Bob]

Good on tv3 for carrying the press conference - black mark for TV1. TV3 will have continuing coverage from 9am.

Peter Whittall spoke very well given the circumstances.

Lets hope they pull them out soon......

[skid]

looks like weather is an issue to allow helicopter in to test ventalation shaft for methane levels so they can verify that its safe to go in.If weather is to bad they will have to hike up to ventalation exit point, which will delay things by most of the day.weather is patchy drissle turning to rain-lets hope the weather allows the helys to make it up to the vent soon

[fish]

Good on tv3 for carrying the press conference - black mark for TV1. TV3 will have continuing coverage from 9am.

Peter Whittall spoke very well given the circumstances.

Lets hope they pull them out soon......

It still sounds as if they want more air samples before the rescue teams will be allowed to go in . The wait not knowing feels horrible and must be terrible for families of those missing .

[winner69]

Good on tv3 for carrying the press conference - black mark for TV1. TV3 will have continuing coverage from 9am.

Peter Whittall spoke very well given the circumstances.

Lets hope they pull them out soon......

Best coverage is SKY News out of OZ .... channel 90

[iceman]

Positive that Peter said there are no indications of excessive temperatures remaining in the mine so likely a single explosion as opposed to a fire. Also good that they are currently pumping fresh air into the mine, although they believe the pipe is broken so don't know exactly where the fresh air is escaping. Hopefully close to where the miners are. Full marks to Peter for a good and informative press conference and good on TV3 to broadcast it live.

[MPC]

Very sad. But being a realist what are the opportunities for making money out of this?
the share price will be hammered, there will be a huge loss of production and the whole operation of the mine will be have to be reassessed. We all know how much red tape will be involved once OSH and everyone has a look at things. I think the options are gone and it will be interesting to see how low the shareprice will go.
BUT, the coal is still there and worth a lot of money, could be good opportunities for buying in at a very low price for a great long term investment.

Hope everyone comes out of this alright. By the wayI find it weird that people still pray or mention praying. I thought this was a logical site about sharetrading.
Cheers,
MPC

[bull....]

Very sad. But being a realist what are the opportunities for making money out of this?
the share price will be hammered, there will be a huge loss of production and the whole operation of the mine will be have to be reassessed. We all know how much red tape will be involved once OSH and everyone has a look at things. I think the options are gone and it will be interesting to see how low the shareprice will go.
BUT, the coal is still there and worth a lot of money, could be good opportunities for buying in at a very low price for a great long term investment.

Hope everyone comes out of this alright. By the wayI find it weird that people still pray or mention praying. I thought this was a logical site about sharetrading.
Cheers,
MPC

Yep no doubt the price will get hammered , If the mine is shut for extended period you may see the share price in penny camp and consider it worth a punt with money you can afford.

[Lizard]

But being a realist what are the opportunities for making money out of this?

Being a realist, the best summary of the rescue prospects I have heard was "hopeful but not confident".

Being a realist, I would have thought the mine is unlikely to be operational for months and, more likely, years.

Being a realist, this is a personal tragedy for families, a community tragedy for the west coast and a wider economic disappointment for New Zealand.

I think the possibilities for making money from this are both remote and unpalatable.

[Nitaa]

Very sad. But being a realist what are the opportunities for making money out of this?
the share price will be hammered, there will be a huge loss of production and the whole operation of the mine will be have to be reassessed. We all know how much red tape will be involved once OSH and everyone has a look at things. I think the options are gone and it will be interesting to see how low the shareprice will go.
BUT, the coal is still there and worth a lot of money, could be good opportunities for buying in at a very low price for a great long term investment.

Hope everyone comes out of this alright. By the wayI find it weird that people still pray or mention praying. I thought this was a logical site about sharetrading.
Cheers,
MPC MPC I think its only logical and natural that people show their feelings in their own way.

Shocking news and just another tragedy that the S I can ill afford. Peter Whitall has spoken extremely well given the circumstances unlike John Dow. Here is hoping for the best possible outcome.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all that are effected in one way or another.

[fungus pudding]

Hope everyone comes out of this alright. By the wayI find it weird that people still pray or mention praying. I thought this was a logical site about sharetrading.
Cheers,
MPC

I agree. Now is not the time to debate such matters, but I do find it quite sick. I sincerely hope those who believe in prayer and such-like just keep it to themselves without imploring the rest of us to keep praying.

[Rabbi]

We can only wait and hope at this stage. Before any rescue mission can commence they have to test the methane levels at the ventilation portal. Hopefully they can get a helicopter up there.
I was in Greymouth only last week and was talking to one of the miners still in the mine.
We had a good talk about the mine operations but that discussion now seems foreboding and surrealistic.

Let's hope the rescue teams can get them all out safely and unharmed.

[Balance]

I agree. Now is not the time to debate such matters, but I do find it quite sick. I sincerely hope those who believe in prayer and such-like just keep it to themselves without imploring the rest of us to keep praying.

As in everything on this site, you are free to ignore anything written.

Those who believe in prayers, pray.

Those who don't, don't.

[fungus pudding]

As in everything on this site, you are free to ignore anything written.
Those who believe in prayers, pray.
Those who don't, don't.

That's fine. I merely stated they should desist from asking others to join in. It's offensive.

[Nitaa]

As in everything on this site, you are free to ignore anything written.

Those who believe in prayers, pray.

Those who don't, don't.touché. Right on the money

[Balance]

That's fine. I merely stated they should desist from asking others to join in. It's offensive.

When you meet your Maker, you will know what offensive really means.

[MPC]

What I am interested in hearing from a site like this is the practical matters about what damage has been done to the mine, what will need to be done to make the mine operational again, what this will cost the company and therefore the effect on the shareprice etc.
Of course it is sad for the people involved and those affected. If I want to discuss the emotions of this tragedy though I shouldn't be on a forum about sharetrading. I am here because I want to know how I can make money from this. I don't want to hear about prayers and stuff.
I am not trying to start a debate, please go elsewhere if you don't want to discuss the sharetrading and business side of things.

With respect,
MPC

[winner69]

hey fungus - this is a sharetrading forum so kets discuss if we can make money out of this eh. is a tragedy and I hope all is well with the iminers ... all the best to them

Reality of trading is that is that events like this create opportunities to make money .... like what happened to the FBU shareprice when Chch earthquake created so much misery for thousands.

If trading to make money is your game then one needs to look at these opportunities

As you say the coal is still there so if it ever comes out whatever PRC was worth the other day is still worth about the same. No doubt there will be a reaction and the shareprice will tumble when trading starts again .... some in Uzzie even bailed yesterday sending the shareprice down 14% or something

Unfortunately this could not have come at a worse time for PRC as their finances are stretched to the limit. recent discussions about new finance now on the back burner. This may be the last straw for PRC as we know it and somebody else will make the big bucks in the future

Events over the next few days will determine how bad things are .... and no doubt when PRC starts trading again the shareprice will show volatility ... traders delight

Irony is that people started rubbishing our old friend Sniper the other day .... Sniper many times warned that those in the know were worried about the high gas counts etc ... something that even that Dr Cave bloke was concerened about .... so maybe Sniper was right again

Also from a traders perspective the charts maybe were signalling an impending disaster this week ... spooky eh

What you think fungus .... wondering how to make a bob or two are you ... thinking up a strategy yet

[fabs]

Hey PUDDING,
i do not get the impression that anyone ask you to pray, as little as anyone get to feel compelled to indulge in cynicism by your comment.
Praying obscene?
get a live

[Nitaa]

MPC. Actually I find your posts offensive but I will respect yours and any others opinion even if I have a totally opposite view. Feed. the greed... I see it every day.

Yes there are opportunities in disasters like PRC. I would guess that if you are looking in the public forum to get a heads up or an opportunity to take advantage of other peoples misfortune then the opportunity has most likely already passed.

[skid]

There will be plenty of time to devise a strategy to make financial gain from this tragedy.But right now I think most traders would rather hear about developments with the rescue operation.t With respect,rying to make a financial decision with this amount of information is both fruitless and,lets face it,a bit distasteful.

[fungus pudding]

Hey PUDDING,
i do not get the impression that anyone ask you to pray, as little as anyone get to feel compelled to indulge in cynicism by your comment.
Praying obscene?
get a live

I did not say praying was obscene. Each to his own. I said asking others to join in, or suggesting they do is offensive, and there are several examples of such suggestions in previous postings. If you want to pray - go for your life. Invite all those who follow the same brand of religion, or beliefs to join in, but limit it to them. And never never never tell anyone you have been or will pray for them unless you know beyond doubt that they approve. Although not intended, it can be the ultimate insult. End of matter.

[MPC]

Nothing distasteful at all. I seperate my emotions about people and my wish to capitalise on any developments to make money. The attack on the Twin towers is a prime example, there was a massive overreaction on the markets and it was great for trading.
It will be interesting to see what information comes out of this and how to pre guess what it will mean for PRC as a company. I will be keeping a close eye on PRC for the next few trading weeks as well as watching the news hoping that all the people are safe and well.

Cheers,
MPC

[fish]

There will be plenty of time to devise a strategy to make financial gain from this tragedy.But right now I think most traders would rather hear about developments with the rescue operation.t With respect,rying to make a financial decision with this amount of information is both fruitless and,lets face it,a bit distasteful.

My investment in prc and nzo is insignficant compared with the famliies and lives put on line . However I bought on close and wonder why the prices where dropping

[Nitaa]

Pure speculation of course, it is hard to see PRC coming back from this in the short to medium term. OSH will be all over it like a rash. First they will need a rescue mission, then an inquiry which could take months or much longer. At this stage the mine could be in limbo until OSH are convinced that further accidents like this wont happen again. In the mean time how is the mine going to be propped up financially? There will be a beneficary but very difficult to see a small shareholder making money or coming out without taking a hiding. The opportunity might come from an Aus company buying this mine for a dime.

[duncan macgregor]

MPC. Actually I find your posts offensive but I will respect yours and any others opinion even if I have a totally opposite view. Feed. the greed... I see it every day.

Yes there are opportunities in disasters like PRC. I would guess that if you are looking in the public forum to get a heads up or an opportunity to take advantage of other peoples misfortune then the opportunity has most likely already passed. NITA you lovely old bat it takes all kinds to make a world. I would think that investors in this company might come together with a practical idea instead of flaunting their god who had absolutely nothing to do with anything. It was not an act of god beyond mans control but a mistake somewhere by some one who might have foreseen this disaster. Idea number one why dont you lot donate to the families involved . Idea number two Nita will arrange with a bank for donations to go into a disaster fund for needy families of those involved.
For the get rich merchants the time to buy is after the share gets hammered and it shows a buy signal. The time to sell was on friday after the event so bad luck. The mine might be closed for good depending on the out come so dont hold your breath.
May your GAWDS be with you MACDUNK

[bung5]

Yeah I don't think its going to come out of trading halt while all this is going on.

[STRAT]

I was saddened to hear of this incident and my heart goes out to all involved but it seems to me some are forgetting where they are. The conversation will and must move towards the Share Trading side of this tragedy. Surely both aspects can be discussed without cross contamination and without offence being given or taken?

[MrDevine]

Hey Fungus are you referring to Bermudas post? I think that might have been a mistypo, but everyone gets the picture. I don't think anyone is overtly religious on here, but what else in our culture do you way in a situation like this? "Tough Luck" "Life Sucks" "Lifes not fair, get over it"? I think a little sensitivity (to everyone) would be appropriate at this time. I also think discussing trading strategies now, before we have news of a possible rescue is distasteful, but 'willing buyer, willing seller' still applies.

My thoughts today are with the families of the missing miners.

Mr D.

[MrDevine]

I was saddened to hear of this incident and my heart goes out to all involved but it seems to me some are forgetting where they are. The conversation will and must move towards the Share Trading side of this tragedy. Surely both aspects can be discussed without cross contamination and without offence being given or taken?

We're talking about human beings here STRAT, can't we give it a bit more time?

[bull....]

There will be plenty of time to devise a strategy to make financial gain from this tragedy.But right now I think most traders would rather hear about developments with the rescue operation.t With respect,rying to make a financial decision with this amount of information is both fruitless and,lets face it,a bit distasteful.

Spot on , More info is needed and while we might like the thought of an oportunity my thoughts are that the people are safe first and then too look to the oportunity.

[Rabbi]

Unofficial reports coming from mines rescue suggests they are all dead.

Hope this is wrong.

[Nitaa]

Unofficial reports coming from mines rescue suggests they are all dead.

Hope this is wrong.Rabbi. It it is true I feel totally sick and feel totally helpless.

[h2so4]

The mine might be closed for good depending on the out come so dont hold your breath.
May your GAWDS be with you MACDUNK

Well there's an opportunity. As an investor I always thought that the best resource is one that never gets mined. Anyone that brings a resource into production should be shot.

I hope that all is well with the trapped miners.

[skid]

ant idea where these unofficial reports come from? I must say,the fact that one of the miners that got out and was apparently not so close,was knocked unconscience is not a good sign.

[fish]

Unofficial reports coming from mines rescue suggests they are all dead.

Hope this is wrong.

As the rescues teams havnt gone down yet this must be speculation and hope should not be lost

[fabs]

PUDDING
way do you then not do as you preach,
prey tell me by what criteria you, without doubt know that people in trouble do, or do not approve others praying for them, or can anyone prove or disprove benefit or harm.
Offensive or Obscene, only relative in the eye of the beholder.
Are you asking people first every time before you toast there health in the coming season or do you never wish anybody well to avoid harm?

[Corporate]

I feel for all those involved. This is tragic!

[skid]

Damn,rain radar shows top of the South Island coverd with rain-showers.Not good for Heli.i hope they had the foresight to send the guys on foot right away in case the chopper couldnt go.If they did get the window,they could pick them up en route or send another crew if they have one-could possibly save precious hours...

[rabcat]

Talked to a South African friend this morning who worked in an underground mine very similar to Pike.
His thoughts are that it is a methane explosion. After the methane explosion a ball of flame rolls down the shaft until it escapes the mine. This he explains is very dangerous and in South African normally results in those caught in its path being serverely injured. So we hope that there were not too many people close by when it happened and that it went up a ventilation shaft. ( Which from what I have heard it this is were it existed the mine.)

As for the mine he tells me that there is minimal damage. i.e some machinary etc gets fried but the mine shaft etc dont get damaged.

So for those of us who pray ten lets hope that all the works come out alive.

PS. I find praying and faith an intergral part of investing in the markets.

[Crypto Crude]

Just found at that my best mates brother is in there...
His other brother escaped and saved a mans life...
I presume he was one of the two that walked out...
cant be sure, havent heard much, just got up...
any updates?
:cool:
.^sc

[Rabbi]

As the rescues teams havnt gone down yet this must be speculation and hope should not be lost

I don't want to believe it myself.

All I know is that one of the mines rescue team rang a relation in Auckland and told her
they were most likely all dead. He has a brother down the mine so he wouldn't have wanted to relay this scenario if he didn't think it was true, but these guys are the experts and they know what the most likely outcome of the explosion would be.

It is- of course- speculation until the rescue team reaches the miners.

[winner69]

rescue teams going in soon - SKY News

[Casa del Energia]

Don't start another thread - a one stop shop is better - and anyway, for the moment, it isn't about purity of market - far from it. And don't forget that there are many shareholders who invested for wider reasons than purely market reasons.

[winner69]

Don't start another thread - a one stop shop is better - and anyway, for the moment, it isn't about purity of market - far from it. And don't forget that there are many shareholders who invested for wider reasons than purely market reasons.

Do any of you who invested for wider reasons than purely market reasons (casa's words) see yoorselves as an 'owner' of PRC? .... and as such feel that as an 'owner' that the miners are your employees ... if so current events are probably even more galling

Just interested

Disc ... generally I trade 'prices' and never see myself as an 'owner' of a business because very rarely does my cash actually go into the coffers of the company. Though in PRCs case I did cough up cash that do go into their coffers but somebody took the acquired shares within a few days.

[fungus pudding]

PUDDING
way do you then not do as you preach,
prey tell me by what criteria you, without doubt know that people in trouble do, or do not approve others praying for them, or can anyone prove or disprove benefit or harm.
Offensive or Obscene, only relative in the eye of the beholder.
Are you asking people first every time before you toast there health in the coming season or do you never wish anybody well to avoid harm?

I often wish people well. I particularly hope for the best outcome for these miners and their families, although I do fear the worst. The whole community will take a huge knock over this.

[buns]

Shocking news..

Shrewd - hope your mate/his family is coping..

Any one know the gas result from the 4th sample taken? First 3 were good, and seems they will enter.

Scary afternoon ahead of us I think. Will proabably have some info on the trapped miners before the news at 6. Lets hope it's good news.

[Rabbi]

Looks like they won't be going in for a while yet.

This makes it particularly hard on the families, who must be fearing the worst by now.

Apparently the Mayor said that a rescue operation was under way but this was incorrect, so still waiting for further methane testing.

[Beagle]

I really feel for the miners and their families. New Zealand used to be recognised as a predominantly Christian nation so I fail to see how expressing one's emotion in the context of extending prayers is offensive...but having said that I am also concerned for the financial carnage this event will have on supporters of PRC and NZO.

I've posted several times that PRC is basically insolvent except for the on-going financial support of NZO and that the excessive and repetitive ongoing support requested of NZO is a concern to me as a shareholder of NZO.

I going to go on record now, and I know this will be unpalatable to some on here, but why should NZO keep propping un this problem child for ever and a day ? Many on here are sure to disagree with me but if I werre David Salisbury CEO of NZO I'd be asking myself some very very hard questions beginning with, is it time to cut your losses and walk away ? PRC havn't got any cash to keep going so who's going to carry the baby ?

Maybe its time for the Government to step in and provide financial assistance to rectify the mine operation after all they seem all to keen to step in and help farmers when there's a major adverse flood, so how is stepping up to the plate to preserve hundreds of jobs in this instance any different and why shouldn't they help out rather than laying all the responsibility on NZO ?

[Hawke]

I have long been an investor in NZO and supported the Pike River development- as many have here. This makes all of us feel sick with the terrible events now being witnessed. Lets hope our Govts, PRC Company and rescue teams best efforts produce these people back to the surface in the best condition possible.
The Pike River mine has much economic promise for NZ and was a very long time in development but this explosion shows the most important and pivotal part of the mine is the people and its workers. I hope they are ok and in a safe zone, have clean air and awaiting rescue.

Sadly, we must also brace for the potential worst outcome. The country is on tenterhooks awaiting hopefully positive news.
Hawke.

[Lizard]

My investment in prc and nzo is insignficant compared with the famliies and lives put on line . However I bought on close and wonder why the prices where dropping

Hey Fish, that is pretty bad luck and am sorry to hear it. The course of trades (http://www.stocknessmonster.com/stock-trades?S=PRC&E=NZSE) doesn't suggest there was too much "in the know" selling happening there - the largest number of trades went through before 4:01pm and it is hard to imagine that anything had leaked out that quickly. Of course there was a little more time on the ASX before it went into halt - and definitely some trading on the news given the fall, but not on huge volume. Nothing too obvious on NZO volumes for either exchange.

[the machine]

Rabcat, the ventilation shaft is "sort of" isolated to some degree, so if this is where the explosion was located then
looking at the mine plan, an explosion at bottom of ventilation shaft would see the shaft itself take the brunt of the outward force and then the main tunnel is next.
there is no direct pathway from ventilation shaft to the coal seam and areas where roadways are planned for 4th quarter.

any "force" that went towards coalface and roadway development would be sigificantly less than what went down the main tunnel - there are corners and the roadways divide - hence spreads the 'force" out.

Any posters who have some knowledge of how outward forces would be distributed please look at the mine plan and make comment - mine plan is per page 8 of the recent presentation.

where the source of the explosion is of course unknown.

M

[minimoke]

I was saddened to hear of this incident and my heart goes out to all involved but it seems to me some are forgetting where they are. The conversation will and must move towards the Share Trading side of this tragedy. Surely both aspects can be discussed without cross contamination and without offence being given or taken?
You are right, but now is not the time. This is just one other tragedy loaded onto the already over burdened shoulders of south islanders. Even thought this is on the coast there will be people here who are one degree removed from the events and two degrees will cover most. In the last few months we've had SCF demise, the Fiordland aircrash, the earth quake and now this. You're probably not going to get a lot of rational debate on the financial aspects at the moment and nor should you. Our thoughts should be fully with the family and friends of those affected.

[Huang Chung]

Hey Fish, that is pretty bad luck and am sorry to hear it. The course of trades (http://www.stocknessmonster.com/stock-trades?S=PRC&E=NZSE) doesn't suggest there was too much "in the know" selling happening there

Sounds to me as if no one knew about it until the electrician stumbled across the loader driver. Is this correct?

[fish]

Sounds to me as if no one knew about it until the electrician stumbled across the loader driver. Is this correct?

Hi ,that is correct according to the statements I have heard . It doesn"t seem consistent with a large explosion that they dont know the time it occured . I am not worried about the shares I bought yesterday . My heart feels for those that dont know if someone they love is dead or alive .

[skid]

the power failed so they sent the sparky to check and thats how the alert went out

[brettdale]

Its been over 24 hours now, did the miners taken food and water with them down the mine?

[skid]

they have some sort of survival belt but i dont know if it includes much water.Youd think there would be some sort of emergency supplies

[skid]

Special 90min edition news tonight at 6pm,Ch1 and prob 3 as well

[blockhead]

Wouldn't think water would be a problem, I imagine it is dribbling down the walls all over the place

[mouse]

For those who have not visited the mine site, there is the coal preparation plant as you enter the site. Then a long road, 10kms? up to the offices, workshops etc. From there it is 2?kms to the mine portal. Which is where you enter the mine through a 2.3km tunnel.
A power failure could have been caused by an explosion, or the other way around. We do not know. My conjecture is that the electrician went up to the mine to investigate the power outage and must have seen mayhem. My conjecture is that he then phoned the offices to report the situation and very bravely entered the mine. By doing so he was able to rescue the grader driver.
Another two were able to get out via the air vent which is the one that collapsed and was repaired with a partial 600mm shaft. The three miners behind the two failed to get out. It must be very difficult for the two who escaped and I hope the media do not interview them for at least a week.
I am not at all hopeful of the rescue being successful after this amount of time, just over 24 hours. We can hope. Survival would totally depend upon where in the mine you were. Some may be lucky. We can hope so.

[fish]

mouse
Do you kmow why the 3 behind the two failed to get out.
If we know they were alive after the blast it is imperative that the rescue operation gets away -self contained breathing apparatus would be used . The longer you leave people with blast injuries and carbon monoxide poisoning the more likely they are too die .A rescue attempt needs to be made sooner than later

[ratkin]

Its not just a matter of breathing aparatus , its the risk of another explosion

[blockhead]

Its not that simple Fish, it just does not make sense to send someone in if there is a chance they will be killed by a further explosion or by poisonous gas.

If the air is breathable those inside have a chance of being ok, if it is not breathable it is too late for rescuers to achieve anything positive.

I would hate to have to be explaining this to friends and relatives though.

[mouse]

mouse
Do you kmow why the 3 behind the two failed to get out.
If we know they were alive after the blast it is imperative that the rescue operation gets away -self contained breathing apparatus would be used . The longer you leave people with blast injuries and carbon monoxide poisoning the more likely they are too die .A rescue attempt needs to be made sooner than later
The ventilation shaft, which is also the escape shaft, is in the coal area between the mine entrance tunnel and the rock graben. The problem is the shaft that was put in to replace the collapsed part of the vent shaft was only 600mm. A bit of a tight squeeze plus it would have given a reduced supply of air in comparison to a metre shaft. I do not know why they failed to get out, but 600mm is a minimal size.

[fish]

The ventilation shaft, which is also the escape shaft, is in the coal area between the mine entrance tunnel and the rock graben. The problem is the shaft that was put in to replace the collapsed part of the vent shaft was only 600mm. A bit of a tight squeeze plus it would have given a reduced supply of air in comparison to a metre shaft. I do not know why they failed to get out, but 600mm is a minimal size.

Is your information about the 3 men reliable-I havnt heard it mentioned before

[mouse]

Is your information about the 3 men reliable-I havnt heard it mentioned before
I picked it up from news broadcasts. We seem to have four out of the mine, including the electrician. Two from the ventilation shaft, two from the entrance tunnel, including the electrician. I think the electrician is a brave man. He must have gone into the mine entrance for 1500? metres to get the grader driver out. You only have a small window of opportunity to take action. You lose that and you may be unable to act as a sort of 'someone else is responsible' feeling can take over.

[iceman]

I picked it up from news broadcasts. We seem to have four out of the mine, including the electrician. Two from the ventilation shaft, two from the entrance tunnel, including the electrician. I think the electrician is a brave man. He must have gone into the mine entrance for 1500? metres to get the grader driver out. You only have a small window of opportunity to take action. You lose that and you may be unable to act as a sort of 'someone else is responsible' feeling can take over.

Mouse, having listened to a lot of the news reports today and both press conferences, I had a different understanding. I though the electrician bravely assisted one man (the grader driver) out and then soon after, another one man escaped from the ventilation shaft, reporting another 3 being on their way behind him. So 2 plus the electrician having escaped so far. But I may be wrong.

[mouse]

Mouse, having listened to a lot of the news reports today and both press conferences, I had a different understanding. I though the electrician bravely assisted one man (the grader driver) out and then soon after, another one man escaped from the ventilation shaft, reporting another 3 being on their way behind him. So 2 plus the electrician having escaped so far. But I may be wrong.
You could be right. News reports at this stage are a bit jumbled. But every man out is brilliant.

[fish]

Iceman
As I read your posting 1 man escaped from the ventilation shaft and he reported 3 behind him .
It should have been possible to test his blood for carbon monoxide poisoning which might give clues to the dangers down the mine .
When i was 16 I was inadvertently gassed in a domestic accident-a blocked flue -it killed the cat and I woke with a tremendous headache vomited-and passed out when I stood up .
Nowadays I would have been treated with oxygen therapy but i was just put back to bed .
The thought of 3 people known to be alive after the blast and by an escape tunnel and yet no attempt made to rescue them disturbs me deeply .
The police have talked about not wanting to put the 16 man rescue team at risk .
That should be a decision based on weighing risks against rewards .
It only takes 1 rescue worker to go down the escape tunnel ,report, and take air samples .
I am sure there would be lots of volunteers .

[skid]

I find being a past owner of Pike shares makes me feel somehow ''connected'' to the events unfolding.I think 2day is crucial.Theres only so long one can go without water if thats the case.If Pike is finally going to get a break with some luck,now would certainly be the most important time for that to happen.

[Sideshow Bob]

Just on the safety aspect, it has been knawing at me the issue with the tags - when the initial word came of the explosion and the miners being trapped, they said there was 36. And then they went through all of the tags and revised numbers once or twice after that.

I always thought that that sort of thing was hugely important for mines and that it was a sacking offence if you didn't put your 'tag back on the hook'?? This was so they knew exactly who and how many was down there.

[fungus pudding]

Just on the safety aspect, it has been knawing at me the issue with the tags - when the initial word came of the explosion and the miners being trapped, they said there was 36. And then they went through all of the tags and revised numbers once or twice after that.

I always thought that that sort of thing was hugely important for mines and that it was a sacking offence if you didn't put your 'tag back on the hook'?? This was so they knew exactly who and how many was down there.

I think that is the practise, but there are several contractors as well as employees. Maybe that's why the initial confusion.

[Nitaa]

[QUOTE=fungus pudding;326693]I think that is the practise, but there are several contractors as well as employees. Maybe that's why the initial confusion.[/QUOTE

[Nitaa]

SSB. Your right. It should be a simple equation of how many visitor/contractors have been given tags and signed in along with how many tags for employees along with their clocking system.

on a seperate note i understand it is a very volatile situation. In saying that if it was one of my family members i would want to risk my life venturing to save my own blood. OSH have almost made impossible to get anyones ar.se cracking meanwhile some miners lives may have been lost because of over cautiousness. I know its more to it than simply going in

[Awamoa]

I have been watching Holmes on TV this morning and there was a statement made that Pike may have had a methane build up a few weeks ago.
Apparantly some mining expert had expressed his concerns about the methane extraction system not being up to scratch.

[Deev8]

Apparantly some mining expert had expressed his concerns about the methane extraction system not being up to scratch.
There's more on that subject in The Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/pike-river-mine-blast/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503000&objectid=10689068) including:
"Two to three weeks ago the mine fans were out and the whole mine was gassed out" ...
"If management systems and procedures were effective and adhered to, this incident would not have occurred"

[iceman]

There's more on that subject in The Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/pike-river-mine-blast/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503000&objectid=10689068) including:
"Two to three weeks ago the mine fans were out and the whole mine was gassed out" ...
"If management systems and procedures were effective and adhered to, this incident would not have occurred"

I do note that neither "expert" the Herald refers to is named. That is poor journalism and somewhat undermines the credibility of the report.

[ratkin]

I do note that neither "expert" the Herald refers to is named. That is poor journalism and somewhat undermines the credibility of the report.

But it wouldnt be a suprise if it was true .

[evander]

It is my understanding that about 3 weeks ago a lightning strike disabled the power to the mine and therefore the ventilation system, so mining was stopped until it was safe again.

[Crypto Crude]

It doesnt settle right in my mind that no rescue attempt has been made on the trapped...This is nothing like the Chilean disaster, think its already been said... vertical shaft vs horizontal shaft, right?...
Bermuda,
Couldnt they make a cautious approach?

I dont really know much about this stuff...
but what about,
Space suits...
(mini) tank...
bring in the army...

All this waiting around is making people angry...

If I were on the board of PRC,CEO , I myself would be in the mine right now, looking for miners....

I dont know,
maybe I am just being selfish...
risking more lives...
:cool:
.^sc

[Kees]

i think they have known from the first couple of hours that it was over and no need to hurry and risk other lives( hope i am wrong )
although the cop is still saying it is a rescue operation his body languish tels a different story 2010 has not been a good year for the S.I.

[fabs]

Pardon my ignorance,
but if the Electrician was able to make it in and out just after the incident, can not a Volunteer or two with Spark proof gear and Independent breathing equip. to avoid secondary Expl. go in as far as any cave in or obstruction or reach trapped men huddling around fresh air vents?

[winner69]

does this mean the mine is over? my life saving of funds is going to disappear.

Hey NOCASH .... probably all if it won't disappear but a fair chunk will

With your history man I'd sell up when its starts trading again - make a donation to the PIke River Miners Fund .... get a years gym subscription .... drown your sorrows and with the rest take it off your student loan ... and then promise yourself never to get tempted with gambling on shares like NZO and PRC again ... and weren't you in GPG and SKC once before they tanked?

On the other hand you could forget this has never happened and forget all about them .... and possibly be rich in 10 years when the curse has been lifted

Good luck man

[geezy]

if theres no news on the miners by today, i m guessing the sp is gonna take a massive hit. (not to mention the options too)

[bermuda]

It doesnt settle right in my mind that no rescue attempt has been made on the trapped...This is nothing like the Chilean disaster, think its already been said... vertical shaft vs horizontal shaft, right?...
Bermuda,
Couldnt they make a cautious approach?

I dont really know much about this stuff...
but what about,
Space suits...
(mini) tank...
bring in the army...

All this waiting around is making people angry...

If I were on the board of PRC,CEO , I myself would be in the mine right now, looking for miners....

I dont know,
maybe I am just being selfish...
risking more lives...
:cool:
.^sc

Shrewdie,
I have met Peter Whittall several times. He is an extremely experienced and disciplined individual. He is very high on HSE.

No one knows this mine better than he does. I have been praying non stop that Peter's team can bring these boy's home safe and sound.

[Balance]

It is getting very grim indeed - Australian reports are that there is a fire burning away in the mine.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/fire-inside-pike-river-mine-prevents-rescuers-attempts-ceo-peter-whittall-says/story-e6frg6so-1225957667695

No such coverage in NZ.

[winner69]

It is getting very grim indeed - Australian reports are that there is a fire burning away in the mine.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/fire-inside-pike-river-mine-prevents-rescuers-attempts-ceo-peter-whittall-says/story-e6frg6so-1225957667695

No such coverage in NZ.

Whittall was dicussing 'heat' and a 'tinge' tto the air coming out of the ventilation shaft first thing this morning .... this afternoon he said that that the air samples were shoing signs of 'heat'

Maybe just hot gas ... maybe coal burnng .... just conjecture

Just that NZ press doesn't want to use the word fire methinks

[Balance]

Whittall was dicussing 'heat' and a 'tinge' tto the air coming out of the ventilation shaft first thing this morning .... this afternoon he said that that the air samples were shoing signs of 'heat'

Maybe just hot gas ... maybe coal burnng .... just conjecture

Just that NZ press doesn't want to use the word fire methinks

Does not bear thinking about.

[geezy]

maybe only after a massive drop?

[Paint it Black]

I am also furious at the police commander's cautiousness. It is all too PC and by numbers. Where is Howard Broad? If any of the miners survived the explosion they would likely to be injured and potentially unnecessarily dying. Someone needs to go in there fast with detection equipment. The worst scenario could be that many survived but then later died unnecessarily while the police waited for 100% surety on the samples - they will never get that anyway.

[mouse]

Monkey Poms, where are you? Are you able to give us any ideas on the problems? My thoughts are that the delays in going into the mine are pretty serious and every minute delay reduces the prospects for the trapped miners. Have you any experience of this sort of disaster, and it is a disaster, Monkey Poms. Or are you flying over to check the scene for yourself?

[Balance]

I am also furious at the police commander's cautiousness. It is all too PC and by numbers. Where is Howard Broad? If any of the miners survived the explosion they would likely to be injured and potentially unnecessarily dying. Someone needs to go in there fast with detection equipment. The worst scenario could be that many survived but then later died unnecessarily while the police waited for 100% surety on the samples - they will never get that anyway.

PTB, need to read between the lines as to what the Police Commander is saying.

It is hard to put into words but if it is not safe to send 16 men down to check on the trapped miners, how can it be safe for the trapped miners down there?

[duncan macgregor]

What a bunch of novices. I bet real miners would be champing at the bit ready to go in wearing breathing devices to find out what the hell happened and get back out quick. To much PC and BULLDUST me thinks by a bunch of office wallers. Macdunk

[mouse]

It is my understanding that about 3 weeks ago a lightning strike disabled the power to the mine and therefore the ventilation system, so mining was stopped until it was safe again.
I asked Peter after the AGM about lightning strikes on the power supply wires from Greymouth. He told me they were not at all common. Hence nothing needed to be done for additional protection. I have no idea why the power failed. I suspect that it failed due to the explosion, not the other way around.

[Paint it Black]

PTB, need to read between the lines as to what the Police Commander is saying.

It is hard to put into words but if it is not safe to send 16 men down to check on the trapped miners, how can it be safe for the trapped miners down there?

But at least give it a cautious try from the portal with the right gear and detection equipment so they can pull back if need be - the mind boggles knowing there may well be injured men down there who are trapped with an approaching fire.

[ratkin]

Dont fires need oxygen ? How can there be methane AND a fire.

I heard them saying they couldnt go in because any rescuers would have to go over rough ground carrying 14 kilos
of breathing equipment, and that they would only be able to go 2k then have to turn back.

Think they would of tried at least

[Paint it Black]

Dont fires need oxygen ? How can there be methane AND a fire.

I heard them saying they couldnt go in because any rescuers would have to go over rough ground carrying 14 kilos
of breathing equipment, and that they would only be able to go 2k then have to turn back.

Think they would of tried at least

Why not make it 28kg's with a spare tank - I'm sure the rescue crew are the best and keen to go - it's just Gary the Commander who keeps saying 'safety is paramount'. Sack him fast before we are all very sorry.

[duncan macgregor]

Bunch of pansy poofters. Send me down and I will go in with a breathing apparatus. Probably the miners might kick arse and get their mates out despite them. Macdunk

[Nitaa]

PTB, need to read between the lines as to what the Police Commander is saying.

It is hard to put into words but if it is not safe to send 16 men down to check on the trapped miners, how can it be safe for the trapped miners down there?That is the only thing i can think of.

[Paint it Black]

Bunch of pansy poofters. Send me down and I will go in with a breathing apparatus. Probably the miners might kick arse and get their mates out despite them. Macdunk

Yep - it may well have to come to that. Gary will still get his promotion no doubt for ticking all the boxes, however. How anyone can compare this with Chile. At Pike we have a level road way into them while in Chile they were blocked off 700m down!

[Nitaa]

I have been busy over the weekend so i mostly likely am one of thre most uninformed person on this site. The question I would like to know is.. has any asked the people in charge, what is the risk of someone making an initial assessment by using the apropriate breathing aparatus, safety gear etc? It seems like this is the most obvious question but has any heard it being asked to the appropriate authority and if so what was the response?

[Paint it Black]

I have been busy over the weekend so i mostly likely am one of thre most uninformed person on this site. The question I would like to know is.. has any asked the people in charge, what is the risk of someone making an initial assessment by using the apropriate breathing aparatus, safety gear etc? It seems like this is the most obvious question but has any heard it being asked to the appropriate authority and if so what was the response?

I've watched several of the interviews with Peter Whittle and Gary Knowles and I have yet to hear this question posed by the journalists. All we hear is the 'unsafe environment', 'safety is paramount' and not wanting to risk 'destabilising the existing environment' while then saying they will drilling a hole through the roof of the tunnel (which will take around 16 hours), we have the experts advising us, the families are obviously very anxious etc. Seems a pretty straight forward question to me.

[fungus pudding]

Yep - it may well have to come to that. Gary will still get his promotion no doubt for ticking all the boxes, however. How anyone can compare this with Chile. At Pike we have a level road way into them while in Chile they were blocked off 700m down!

The gases ina coal mine make this a whole different proposition with immense risks. Disturbing the gases could cause an explosion until the % of methane present lowers.

[Nitaa]

Why Do Coal Mines Explode? By Denise Chow, Life's Little Mysteries Staff Writer
06 April 2010 4:00 PM ET

The cause of the massive explosion that killed at least 25 miners in West Virginia yesterday remains unknown. But officials think methane gas likely contributed to the fatal blast at Massey Energy Co.'s Upper Big Branch mine.

There are two main types of coal mine explosions: methane explosions and coal dust explosions.

Methane explosions occur in mines when a buildup of methane gas, a byproduct of coal, comes into contact with a heat source, and there is not enough air to dilute the gas to levels below its explosion point, said Yi Luo, an associate professor of mining engineering at West Virginia University.

"In most U.S. coal mines, each ton of coal contains between 100 to 600 cubic feet (2.83 to 17 cubic meters) of methane," Luo told Life's Little Mysteries. "When air contains 5 percent to 15 percent of methane, it can explode."

Deadly mix

Methane, the main component of natural gas, is combustible, and mixtures of about 5 percent to 15 percent in air are explosive. When air contains approximately 9.5 percent of methane (the most dangerous concentration), it reaches the perfect oxidation point, which means that the right amount of fuel is mixing with the right amount of oxygen, said Luo. This produces water, carbon dioxide and a lot of amount of heat.

"It does not [require] much heat to ignite the combustion process and therefore methane explosion can accelerate very fast," Luo said.

The heat generated by this process raises the temperature of the air within the mine, which causes it to expand in volume. Since hot air cannot expand easily underground, pressure builds in the mine. If this pressure is high enough, it can cause the air ahead of the combustion zone to compress and cause a shock wave, Luo explained.

Ventilation is the most common method to avoid such methane explosions in coal mines. Large fans are used to blow air out or draw air into mines, but Luo stated that mine ventilation is still a complicated science.

"In coal mines, we are required to control the concentration [of methane to] less than 1 percent," he said. "But there are hard places to ventilate where concentration could get into the explosive range."

Mine explosions can also be triggered when fine particles of coal dust come into contact with a source of heat.

While methane is easier to ignite, the explosion pressure and heat value of methane is not as high as coal dust. In most cases, dust explosions are first caused by methane explosions, said Luo.

"Dust explosion needs a very high concentration of dust suspended in the air, which is very hard to find in a mine environment," Luo explained.

But, the shock wave caused by methane explosions can blow up coal dust within the mine, and the heat generated by the methane reaction can ignite the dust, which greatly intensifies the energy of the explosion.

Worst case


So, in a worst case scenario, a methane explosion has the potential to ignite a more catastrophic coal dust explosion.

Coal mines in the United States have taken safety measures to avoid dust explosions, including spreading limestone powder over the coal dust. Limestone powder makes it more difficult for shock waves from methane explosions to blow up particles of coal dust, said Luo.

"Limestone also absorbs a great amount of heat generated from the [methane] explosion," Luo said. "It will either stop the chain reaction or reduce the intensity of the explosion."

The Massey Energy Co. explosion this week is the worst mining disaster in the United States in more than two decades, and this latest catastrophe adds to a long history of coal mine tragedies in an industry that is notoriously risky and dangerous.

Since 1839, there have been 501 known U.S. coal mine explosions that killed at least five people each, according to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health. In addition, at least 52 coal mine fires have killed at least five people each. The worst of these disasters was an explosion that killed 362 people in a coal mine in Monongah, W.Va in 1907.

An explosion similar to this week's occurred at Sago Mine in Buckhannon, W.Va in 2006 that killed 12 miners.

[Doyle]

Picks on opening price tommorow?? I know most of you think that, that is insensitive, but the financial losses take a toll just like human losses.

Im picking 40 cents.

Thoughts on trading halt?

[Sideshow Bob]

40c - I think I would be happy at 40c. However while men are trapped, fate unknown, there should be a trading halt on PRC. NZO would at least be a barometer on what will happen....

[Sideshow Bob]

On the issue of whether they are mucking around in going in, if they are alive, then they should be able to survive for an extra day or so, unless seriously injured. If the situation is otherwise, then there is no point risking more people's lives to get down there to find out.

I suppose time will tell who is right.

In Chile, they didn't find out that the miners were even alive for about 10 days after the collapse.

[mouse]

[QUOTE=Doyle;326749]Picks on opening price tommorow?? I know most of you think that, that is insensitive, but the financial losses take a toll just like human losses.
Im picking 40 cents.
Thoughts on trading halt?[/QUOTE

I think there is a trading halt in place now on both NZOG and Pike. But I may be wrong.
We have to get the miners out before anything else can be done. We cannot discuss the future until we have solved the problems of the past.

[Ian]

40c - I think I would be happy at 40c. However while men are trapped, fate unknown, there should be a trading halt on PRC. NZO would at least be a barometer on what will happen....

At 40c wouldn't that mean that around 200miilion would have been wipe of the value of PRC - it's certainly going to hit the SP but wouldn't an SP of 40c be a bit low

[Huang Chung]

Tonight's news in Brisbane is that they have choppered a drilling rig up the mountain and expect to start drilling later tonight. Objective is to lower gas monitoring gear and a camera. Should take around 24hrs to drill.

Regarding the PRC shares, I would expect the company to request the TH to continue, possibly followed by a suspension, at least until the late of the miners in known.

[fish]

Why Do Coal Mines Explode? By Denise Chow, Life's Little Mysteries Staff Writer .

The heat generated by this process raises the temperature of the air within the mine, which causes it to expand in volume. Since hot air cannot expand easily underground, pressure builds in the mine. If this pressure is high enough, it can cause the air ahead of the combustion zone to compress and cause a shock wave, Luo explained.

Ventilation is the most common method to avoid such methane explosions in coal mines. Large fans are used to blow air out or draw air into mines, but Luo stated that mine ventilation is still a complicated science.

"In coal mines, we are required to control the concentration [of methane to] less than 1 percent," he said. "But there are hard places to ventilate where concentration could get into the explosive range."

Mine explosions can also be triggered when fine particles of coal dust come into contact with a source of heat.

While methane is easier to ignite, the explosion pressure and heat value of methane is not as high as coal dust. In most cases, dust explosions are first caused by methane explosions, said Luo.

"Dust explosion needs a very high concentration of dust suspended in the air, which is very hard to find in a mine environment," Luo explained.

But, the shock wave caused by methane explosions can blow up coal dust within the mine, and the heat generated by the methane reaction can ignite the dust, which greatly intensifies the energy of the explosion.

Worst case


So, in a worst case scenario, a methane explosion has the potential to ignite a more catastrophic coal dust explosion.

Coal mines in the United States have taken safety measures to avoid dust explosions, including spreading limestone powder over the coal dust. Limestone powder makes it more difficult for shock waves from methane explosions to blow up particles of coal dust, said Luo.

"Limestone also absorbs a great amount of heat generated from the [methane] explosion," Luo said. "It will either stop the chain reaction or reduce the intensity of the explosion."

The Massey Energy Co. explosion this week is the worst mining disaster in the United States in more than two decades, and this latest catastrophe adds to a long history of coal mine tragedies in an industry that is notoriously risky and dangerous.

Since 1839, there have been 501 known U.S. coal mine explosions that killed at least five people each, according to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health. In addition, at least 52 coal mine fires have killed at least five people each. The worst of these disasters was an explosion that killed 362 people in a coal mine in Monongah, W.Va in 1907.

An explosion similar to this week's occurred at Sago Mine in Buckhannon, W.Va in 2006 that killed 12 miners.

Nita -The risk of explosion should be minimal with hydromining-as should all the risks of minimg .-
Mining using water (called hydraulic or hydro mining) was common in the West Coast goldfields, but was applied only slowly to the mining of coal. There are major advantages in coal mining, as water minimises dust as well as the risk of explosion and fire. Westport entrepreneur and engineer Tom Moynihan was associated with a number of mines in the Seddonville area from the 1920s onwards, and developed hydraulic mining techniques for coal that are now widely used.
I started buying into prc when hydromining was announced-I have bought a lot whilst selling vector-how stupid i was in hindsight and will need to postpone my retirement -still that is nothing compared with the miners and families and my heart bleeds for them .
I find it difficult to accept that they cant effect a rescue-helicopter in some fans-even use a helicopter as fan -just consrtuct a funnel over a vent.
There must be a way of cleaning the air down there

[the machine]

do you think it would be possible to pump air in through the water return pipe - its steel after all so should withstand the explosion.

M

[Snoopy]

Disc ... generally I trade 'prices' and never see myself as an 'owner' of a business because very rarely does my cash actually go into the coffers of the company. Though in PRCs case I did cough up cash that do go into their coffers...

The ultimate owner cop out surely, and I bet Winner is not alone? Looks like all PRC shareholders could have been party to signing off the sending those men underground with no alternate ventilation system available should the electric power give out. Potentially this thread is degenerating to a combined finger pointing exercise for a share register of mass murderers! Yeah I know none of you shareholders actually 'pulled the trigger', but that hasn't stopped judges sending the guilty to jail before. Is running for cover at the first whiff of trouble the most honourable action for PRC shareholders, past or present?

SNOOPY

[Crypto Crude]

I might be doing a road trip with the boys over to visit our mates...

:cool:
.^sc

[Monkey Poms]

Monkey Poms, where are you? Are you able to give us any ideas on the problems? My thoughts are that the delays in going into the mine are pretty serious and every minute delay reduces the prospects for the trapped miners. Have you any experience of this sort of disaster, and it is a disaster, Monkey Poms. Or are you flying over to check the scene for yourself?



Mouse. I have no experience in how these kind of disasters are handled.
I think quite a few shareholders will have an affinity with the mine and the men who work there, as I do.I think a good number of this forum's posters have been to the mine and maybe talked to some of the miners. You can probably still remember those guys' faces and wonder if they are the unfortunate ones trapped in the mine.
I constantly read every word posted on the forum. It is the best source of information as you guys watch and listen to everything going on.
Balance posted details of a site on this forum giving up- to- the minute coverage, which we are following.

Gary Knowles has a very difficult job. Should he allow perhaps one volunteer rescuer to go into the mine and assess the situation?
It's easy for me to say this from where I am. The thought that there may be injured men lying around for any length of time is deeply disturbing to all of us. Mr. Knowles will have to live with the outcome of whatever decisions he makes for the rest of his life, should things turn out badly. (Should he have thrown the rule book away)? If he had asked for one volunteer to go in, I'm sure every one of the 16 rescuers on stand-by would have stepped forward.

Back in the U.K. we are all hoping for a good outcome. Our thoughts and hopes are with all the miners and their waiting families.

Monkey Poms

[Lizard]

Well like many here my thoughts are also with the miners and their families and I’m hoping for the best possible outcome for them all. But regardless of how this pans out on the human front, sadly I see this as the end of Pike River Coal the company.

We know nothing about the extent of the damage done to the infrastructure within the mine by the explosion. We don’t know whether the structural integrity of the mine remains in intact or whether there has been any partial collapses. We don’t know how long and at what cost it will take to restore the mine to its former production levels, but like others have said it is likely to be not producing any coal for months, quite possibly years. And then on top of that are all the other issues like how long will it be kept closed by OSH and any other regulator as they carry out their investigations, before remediation work can start? Then there is the issue of any compensation that has to be paid to the miners involved and any downstream litigation that might follow from any injuries or deaths that the miners have suffered. And then on top of that may come the impact of any possible commission of inquiry’s findings into what caused the explosion and what needs to be done to mitigate that risk in the future.

And in the immediate future what’s going to happen to the current work force that was not in the mine on Friday? There’s no, or very little cash flow now I assume. Will they have to be let go? Will that mean expensive redundancies? Where is the money going to come from to pay them? And what about the loans the company has had from NZO? How is it going to pay those back and the high interest rates (and no doubt penalty rates for any late repayment of the loan) it is currently paying?

Can mines take out insurance for this type of event? Does PRC carry that type of insurance?

Unless a white knight can be found to take the company over, I’m sorry to say it but I can see this as being the end of the company and bankruptcy for it being a very real possibility. Sorry guys but I think your investments in PRC are toast. And I don’t think rushing in and buying them at 40c or whatever it is that they might drop down to in the absence of some pretty solid information about what this explosion means for the company, has a lot going for it.

An excellent post.

If there is any hope for PRC shareholders retaining any value, it must surely be hope in the charity of NZO? NZO will need to consider all their options for best recovery.

Many will want to see them trade, but I would have thought it preferable to suspend the shares until financing is clearer, rather than allow them to be transferred to the naive.

[iceman]

Yesterday the Leader of the rescue team, came into town and spoke to the families. He then fronted the TV cameras and told them in no uncertain terms that it is not possible for him to send any of his team into the mine at present. This rescue team has been called "the SAS of NZ mine rescue" by the local MP. They are mates with many of the miners that are underground and quite possibly share drinks at the pub regularly. They are desperate to get in there and I don't think the Leader of the team would have found it easy to stand in front of the families (and the World) and tell them the last thing they want to hear. This takes real guts. We have no option but to believe in and rely on the professionalism of these people and hope that they make the right decisions based on all the information and knowledge they have. However frustrating those decisions are for everyone involved.

[Beagle]

Well like many here my thoughts are also with the miners and their families and I’m hoping for the best possible outcome for them all. But regardless of how this pans out on the human front, sadly I see this as the end of Pike River Coal the company.

We know nothing about the extent of the damage done to the infrastructure within the mine by the explosion. We don’t know whether the structural integrity of the mine remains in intact or whether there has been any partial collapses. We don’t know how long and at what cost it will take to restore the mine to its former production levels, but like others have said it is likely to be not producing any coal for months, quite possibly years. And then on top of that are all the other issues like how long will it be kept closed by OSH and any other regulator as they carry out their investigations, before remediation work can start? Then there is the issue of any compensation that has to be paid to the miners involved and any downstream litigation that might follow from any injuries or deaths that the miners have suffered. And then on top of that may come the impact of any possible commission of inquiry’s findings into what caused the explosion and what needs to be done to mitigate that risk in the future.

And in the immediate future what’s going to happen to the current work force that was not in the mine on Friday? There’s no, or very little cash flow now I assume. Will they have to be let go? Will that mean expensive redundancies? Where is the money going to come from to pay them? And what about the loans the company has had from NZO? How is it going to pay those back and the high interest rates (and no doubt penalty rates for any late repayment of the loan) it is currently paying?

Can mines take out insurance for this type of event? Does PRC carry that type of insurance?

Unless a white knight can be found to take the company over, I’m sorry to say it but I can see this as being the end of the company and bankruptcy for it being a very real possibility. Sorry guys but I think your investments in PRC are toast. And I don’t think rushing in and buying them at 40c or whatever it is that they might drop down to in the absence of some pretty solid information about what this explosion means for the company, has a lot going for it.

Welcome to the forum David, very good and accurate asessment.

Look we all are hoping for the best and are wishing the miners and there loved ones all the best but lets look at the financial cost, IMO that should be the main focus of this forum now as there's plenty of other forum's to post your support for the miners on.

Lets be realistic, the mine was chewing away at approx $7m a month whilst they were drawing down on NZO's funding package as they started to ramp up production. Now with absolutly no production whatsoever to keep it ticking over surely the mine must be cash flow negative by at least $10m a month ? plus all the rectification work if the mine can be made operational again.

Look at some of the operational problems to get it started again.
Who is going to fund the mine for the next how many months, e.g. 12 months @ $10m a month = $120m ?
How much will the restoration cost, what about the addittional cost of back up power supply and back up ventilation systems that no doubt the regulators will want ?
What about staff retention, how many key staff are going to leave, who would be prepared to go down there and start mining again ?

I am certain there will be an ongoing trading halt on PRC until the situation is significantly more clear. The options are completly worthless, only a fool would think otherwise.

The shares may potentially have some minor value based on a possible takeover at a very very cheap price by an Australian mining company but I think its unwise and not commercially acceptable for NZO to use what would probably amount to almost all its financial reserves to re-establish operations at PRC if indeed this is possible or plausible.

I am sorry, but I see this as the end for a company that has repeatably disappointed the market, and I think those hoping for 40 cents when trading eventually restarts are very optimistic indeed.

[LJB]

Roger, I agree that this company looks dead in the water. No cash flow. No cash reserves. They are unlikely to produce the 60K tonne for next shipment. The only hope for this company is that the big three shareholders , Saurashtra(sp), Gujarat and NZO resolve to prop PRC up to protect their combined huge investment.

[fabs]

Re; SPECULATION on future of PRC as a viable Co.
The recent posts of-------- DAVID.B & LIZARD--------- have given us about as realistic as possible and well detailed outcome that every member on this and NZO forum should read and study.
As to hoping that NZO to my knowledge the largest S/H and CREDITOR of PRC which are too, likely to lose the lot under the circumstances, to make any decisions of any salvage based on emotional rather than purely commercial and objective grounds, would be very unethical.

[Beagle]

Re; SPECULATION on future of PRC as a viable Co.
The recent posts of-------- DAVID.B & LIZARD--------- have given us about as realistic as possible and well detailed outcome that every member on this and NZO forum should read and study.
As to hoping that NZO to my knowledge the largest S/H and CREDITOR of PRC which are too, likely to lose the lot under the circumstances, to make any decisions of any salvage based on emotional rather than purely commercial and objective grounds, would be very unethical.

Absolutly agreed. See my post on the NZO thread. NZO need to look after NZO and act purely in NZO's interests.

[Lizard]

PRC suspended on NZX. (NZO trading halt pending announcement).

[Beagle]

PRC suspended on NZX. (NZO trading halt pending announcement).

NZO
22/11/2010 09:14
GENERAL

REL: 0914 HRS New Zealand Oil and Gas Limited

GENERAL: NZO: Statement on Pike River

The Board and staff of NZOG (New Zealand Oil & Gas Ltd) extend their thoughts
and sympathies to the men trapped at the Pike River Coal mine, their
families, friends and colleagues.

NZOG has had a long and close association with the Pike River coal mine. The
project was developed by NZOG over two decades before Pike River Coal Ltd was
publicly floated in 2007, and NZOG retains a significant stake in the
company.

Like all New Zealanders, we are hoping for the best possible outcome from the
rescue and recovery mission.

NZOG will be making further statements on market-related issues.
End CA:00202662 For:NZO Type:GENERAL Time:2010-11-22 09:14:36

If NZO take an approach other than being objective about the situation, the market will punish NZO's share price.

[Balance]

There is going to be serious money to be made in PRC - wait for the coal dust to settle.

Question - do the die-hard Pikers have the fortitude to see this through or do they give up?

What they do will determine who makes the real serious money.

[skid]

I think some of you might be a bit quick to write PRC off as a takeover target.It may need a fair amount or renovation but there is one hell of alot of high quality coal that is for the most part,already been accessed.Compare where the mine is now as compared to the day they first started digging. Its hard,not to get emotional in times like this,and god knows its frustrating but some of you may not be so quick to want to go back and visit your statements later-those of you bleeting about the miners bonuses please stand up-having said that I to ,have found these posts very informative and read with interest.


those of you bleeting about miners bonuses please stand up

[skid]

sorry ,the repeat was a typo error

[duncan macgregor]

This company placed mens lives at risk by not having back up measures in place for every eventuality leading up to this tragic accident. Why not have vent holes in place sucking the air up with machines on the surface run by back up motors if need be.
It seems from what I can make out the company is run by total incompetants judging by the pathetic efforts to get the rescue underway. It is easy and cheap enough to have small diamater vent holes drilled along the mine track in front of the mining so that there is always one near the face. I would think that all this great fear of sending a person in with an oxygen kit,only leads to the conclusion that the temperature is the problem. The company is now dog tucker their dismal record up to the accident and now this pathetic rescue to top that is the last straw. I can remember the incident where the man rescued a little girl from under a burning oil tanker. I also remember the soldier carrying his wounded mate out under fire . My memory of this will be a bunch of incompetants running round in circles while some poor people lie injured or dead waiting on help to arrive.
Sorry about your investment guys but the company should be wound up and sold off to a real mining company

[Traderx]

There is going to be serious money to be made in PRC - wait for the coal dust to settle.

Question - do the die-hard Pikers have the fortitude to see this through or do they give up?

What they do will determine who makes the real serious money.

Hi Balance, what do you see the possible scenarios as being? In terms of funding, cash-flow, ownership, operationally?

Hoping and praying for all concerned that the next day or two brings good news. The waiting for news from inside is really hard.

[bull....]

I think your all dreaming about making money , the companies insolvent now.
The only way your have any chance of making money is if NZOG and S/H stump up with more money once the dust settles and that could be many months away after all the investigations etc are done.

[peat]

Like everyone I wish and hope that lives are saved although obviously this is not looking very encouraging, but there is still some chance so we have to wait and see.

From an investment/trading perspective I have written off the full cost of the small number of shares I held. While there may be some value there its difficult to see a viable business
As I stated in that post this was always a risky investment - but importantly for the future even more than I considered due to the incorrect assumption that one could exit at some point if the price fell below a certain level and didnt take enough account of the added liquidity/total business risk. This of course demonstrates the value not only of having a diversified portfolio but also investing in companies which have a diversified portfolio of interests. I am more used to trading in deep and liquid markets such as forex where prices tend to move slower without the ability to gap except over the weekend or at news events. This is big lesson to me in itself about the nature of the entity one trades and the extra associated risks one assumes with stocks and their businesses. Money management theory completely fails in this instance. Total risk was greater than envisaged. Lesson learned.

[winner69]

Dunc ... this man says there were too many bosses ... and not enough indians

"I would say they're too top-heavy with management. There is a boss for this and a boss for that [and we had] a lot of machinery, trying to fix it and they don't have a lot of staff."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/pike-river-mine-blast/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503000&objectid=10689066

[Traderx]

Like everyone I wish and hope that lives are saved although obviously this is not looking very encouraging, but there is still some chance so we have to wait and see.

From an investment/trading perspective I have written off the full cost of the small number of shares I held. While there may be some value there its difficult to see a viable business
As I stated in that post this was always a risky investment - but importantly for the future even more than I considered due to the incorrect assumption that one could exit at some point if the price fell below a certain level and didnt take enough account of the added liquidity/total business risk. This of course demonstrates the value not only of having a diversified portfolio but also investing in companies which have a diversified portfolio of interests. I am more used to trading in deep and liquid markets such as forex where prices tend to move slower without the ability to gap except over the weekend or at news events. This is big lesson to me in itself about the nature of the entity one trades and the extra associated risks one assumes with stocks and their businesses. Money management theory completely fails in this instance. Total risk was greater than envisaged. Lesson learned.

Well said - same applies to me.

[warthog]

Lots of speculation going on here, and the usual banter from MacDuff and friends.

What are the facts here?

Two types of explosion (in the main): dust, and gas. For this mine, it won't be dust, and the gas is methane. So it was a methane explosion.

Air is pumped into mines as a matter of course. So there would have been a fair percentage of breathable air in the mine, and methane levels only need to reach say 10% (or less in some cases) to be potentially explosive. This is a general figure. The reality is that when such gases exist they do so in pockets and are gradually released into the general mine atmosphere. So the potential for explosions is hugely variable and very much dependent on location relative to the gas source.

Such explosions in confined spaces are very destructive. Looking at the photo of one of the vents, and the surrounding area, it would be fair to say that the explosion was considerable.

Also, it is likely (but not definitive) that the source of the gas, and therefore at its highest concentration, was close to the seam, at the end of the mine. If this area was the core of the explosion, survivors would have experienced the shock-wave and probably some residual explosive blast. This appears to be consistent with what we know from information released and interviews with the survivors, who were also some distance from the end of the mine.

When explosive gases reach a certain proportion in any volume, the source of ignition can be something very small indeed. One tiny, microscopic spark is enough. Many non-human forms of intervention are not designed for such an unstable environment.

A classic situation for rescue failures is where the original threat causes the demise of the rescuers.

Bearing in mind that the risk of further explosion(s) remains high, the logical position is to wait until such time as this risk is acceptably low before attempting any rescue. There will always be people who jump in the water to save others, and then get in trouble themselves and drown (often when this happens, those originally in trouble are saved by somebody else with a cool head).

And now for the hog's speculation: those making the decisions know that the chance of finding people alive is actually pretty slim, given that there has been an explosion. Also, following an explosion the levels of oxygen in the space are very much lowered. You don't need to be that sharp to realise that the picture is not a good one. This obviously has to be a factor when faced with the decision of when to deploy healthy, living people into the mine.

If the mine had collapsed in one or more places, the picture would be quite different. Pockets of people would be very much more likely to survive in that scenario.

Unfortunately, given the above, it is unlikely that anybody still in that mine will be coming out alive.

This doesn't mean that people should give up hope, but in a world of physical realities, there needs to be recognition that chances are slim of a positive outcome. We would all recognise that if one's investments were made on the basis of hope then it would be cause for concern.

The hog would be as pleased as anybody to see a different outcome.

[peat]

3049I trade using CFD's
Oddly I was able to exit at 0.67 so its not a complete writeoff
The question is should I short it at these prices. No I will not. but I thought others might like to know there is some 'off -market' liquidity

[skid]

good post Warthog-i suppose it would be logical to assume that they would have been working at the seam,unless they were having a general look around in trems of a safety inspection as some stated.Who knows ,mayby a high Methane level was the reason for an inspection.

[RenHoek]

...I think some of you might be a bit quick to write PRC off as a takeover target.It may need a fair amount or renovation but there is one hell of alot of high quality coal that is for the most part,already been accessed.Compare where the mine is now as compared to the day they first started digging....

Who is going to want to work in the mine now?
Even if it does get a new ventilation overhaul.
I think its going to be a long time before this mine is up and running again. If at all....

[Beagle]

3049I trade using CFD's
Oddly I was able to exit at 0.67 so its not a complete writeoff
The question is should I short it at these prices. No I will not. but I thought others might like to know there is some 'off -market' liquidity

See my thoughts above. I'd short the f##k out of it in the 60 cent range if I were you.

Lesson here is we should all at least be operationally aware of alternative trading mechanisms as CFD's.

[peat]

See my thoughts above. I'd short the f##k out of it in the 60 cent range if I were you.

Lesson here is we should all at least be operationally aware of alternative trading mechanisms as CFD's.

down to 59 and all trades appear to be shorts ...
no i cant bring myself to trade on misery...
and yes the alternative trading mechnism is exactly why I posted...

[Beagle]

down to 59 and all trades appear to be shorts ...
no i cant bring myself to trade on misery...
and yes the alternative trading mechnism is exactly why I posted...

Fair enough. Just out of interest where are NZO on that CFD platform ?

[peat]

Fair enough. Just out of interest where are NZO on that CFD platform ?

1.059/1.060

[Traderx]

1.059/1.060

Which platform is that on?

[peat]

CMC MarketMaker.

[Balance]

i think this event will surley put to rest the government proposals of mining doc land ever in the future as the restrictions to mining companies dont seem to provide a safe enough working environment for the workers.
i read yesterday(but i cant find it anymore)that the approval back in 2004 was sposed to have 4 escape routes somewhere near the pit

Accidents happen in mines all the time around the world.

The critical thing now is to find out why PRC mine had an explosion - is it PRC's fault or was there a malfunction in the key equipments provided and installed or even, a fault with the electricity supplier?

Foe example, if the Qantas A380 had gone down, should Qantas be blamed or should Rolls-Royce be blamed?

I have been extremely skeptical of the quality of PRC's management but with this tragedy, will not be the first to throw a stone . It is a big call to accuse management of cutting back on mine safety.

[h2so4]

Lots of speculation going on here, and the usual banter from MacDuff and friends.

What are the facts here?

Two types of explosion (in the main): dust, and gas. For this mine, it won't be dust, and the gas is methane. So it was a methane explosion.

Air is pumped into mines as a matter of course. So there would have been a fair percentage of breathable air in the mine, and methane levels only need to reach say 10% (or less in some cases) to be potentially explosive. This is a general figure. The reality is that when such gases exist they do so in pockets and are gradually released into the general mine atmosphere. So the potential for explosions is hugely variable and very much dependent on location relative to the gas source.

Such explosions in confined spaces are very destructive. Looking at the photo of one of the vents, and the surrounding area, it would be fair to say that the explosion was considerable.

Also, it is likely (but not definitive) that the source of the gas, and therefore at its highest concentration, was close to the seam, at the end of the mine. If this area was the core of the explosion, survivors would have experienced the shock-wave and probably some residual explosive blast. This appears to be consistent with what we know from information released and interviews with the survivors, who were also some distance from the end of the mine.

When explosive gases reach a certain proportion in any volume, the source of ignition can be something very small indeed. One tiny, microscopic spark is enough. Many non-human forms of intervention are not designed for such an unstable environment.

A classic situation for rescue failures is where the original threat causes the demise of the rescuers.

Bearing in mind that the risk of further explosion(s) remains high, the logical position is to wait until such time as this risk is acceptably low before attempting any rescue. There will always be people who jump in the water to save others, and then get in trouble themselves and drown (often when this happens, those originally in trouble are saved by somebody else with a cool head).

And now for the hog's speculation: those making the decisions know that the chance of finding people alive is actually pretty slim, given that there has been an explosion. Also, following an explosion the levels of oxygen in the space are very much lowered. You don't need to be that sharp to realise that the picture is not a good one. This obviously has to be a factor when faced with the decision of when to deploy healthy, living people into the mine.

If the mine had collapsed in one or more places, the picture would be quite different. Pockets of people would be very much more likely to survive in that scenario.

Unfortunately, given the above, it is unlikely that anybody still in that mine will be coming out alive.

This doesn't mean that people should give up hope, but in a world of physical realities, there needs to be recognition that chances are slim of a positive outcome. We would all recognise that if one's investments were made on the basis of hope then it would be cause for concern.

The hog would be as pleased as anybody to see a different outcome.

Thanks warthog.

I'll go with the positive outcome.

[Beagle]

1.059/1.060

Interesting. Thanks for that.

[blackcap]

I think you will find that with CMC marketst that 1.059 1.06 means that it is suspended as well. No way will you be able to short on that...

[peat]

my trade has now been reversed and the big red S in the quote pic I posted stands for suspended

so there is no off market liquidity - my mistake - it did seem a little odd, but I assumed it was possible they create their own market... maybe they should be on top of these things a little better as well...

[Beagle]

I think some of you might be a bit quick to write PRC off as a takeover target.It may need a fair amount or renovation but there is one hell of alot of high quality coal that is for the most part,already been accessed.Compare where the mine is now as compared to the day they first started digging. Its hard,not to get emotional in times like this,and god knows its frustrating but some of you may not be so quick to want to go back and visit your statements later-those of you bleeting about the miners bonuses please stand up-having said that I to ,have found these posts very informative and read with interest.those of you bleeting about miners bonuses please stand up


Its commercially irresponsible to pay bonus's for grossly inadequate and substandard performance and I think its indicative of systemic operational and or management failures that they had to offer these in the circumstances.

Balance - You're an optimist but I'd have thought from a financial perspective now's the time to be realistic. The chances of shareholders wanting to put in really substantial further capital after all the previous cash issues and broken promises and targets I would have thought is pretty slim. If the miners have died which realistically looks increasingly likely the chances of shareholders even being asked to put in capital in the first place are also pretty slim.

The place to make money out of this tragedy (if you have the stomach for it) is buying NZO shares which will no doubt get hammerred, both on loss of investment value in their associate, but mainly on sentiment in the next few days when trading commences again.

[Balance]

Its commercially irresponsible to pay bonus's for grossly inadequate and substandard performance and I think its indicative of systemic operational and or management failures that they had to offer these in the circumstances.

Balance - You're an optimist but I'd have thought from a financial perspective now's the time to be realistic. The chances of shareholders wanting to put in really substantial further capital after all the previous cash issues and broken promises and targets I would have thought is pretty slim. If the miners have died which realistically looks increasingly likely the chances of shareholders even being asked to put in capital in the first place are also pretty slim.

The place to make money out of this tragedy (if you have the stomach for it) is buying NZO shares which will no doubt get hammerred, both on loss of investment value in their associate, but mainly on sentiment in the next few days when trading commences again.

Roger, I am hardly an optimist! But a realist - always.

There is a truckload of money to be made when emotions and sentiment completely overwhelm logic - seen it too many times before.

Let's wait to see what the diehard Pikers do.

[warthog]

Thanks warthog.

I'll go with the positive outcome.

"But at the end of the day this is a search and recovery operation. We are going to go in and do our best to bring these guys to out."

Question for you h2: do you see the word "rescue" anywhere?

Sorry.

Realistic Warhog

[Beagle]

Roger, I am hardly an optimist! But a realist - always.

There is a truckload of money to be made when emotions and sentiment completely overwhelm logic - seen it too many times before.

Let's wait to see what the diehard Pikers do.

Agreed, see my comments on NZO thread regarding value erosion due to this event and where I see fair value of NZO. I think even the most diehard Pikers would be sent into a coughing fit with a 1 for 1 cash issue at say 30 cents, I just can't see the company getting this sort of issue "away" but that's about what may be needed IMO.

OTOH I'll buy heaps of NZO if the price is right.

[trackers]

Interesting viewpoint over at HC:
http://www.hotcopper.com.au/post_single.asp?fid=1&tid=1312070&msgid=7390709



I didn't want to post because it is all too distressing.
In Response to Roidz who is absolutely on the money. The Fact is That They are Most Likely Dead. They were Probably Killed Instantly by either the Blast or Ensueing CO levels.

I've been an Underground Miner for 28 years and a Rescue Member for 14 years. The Rule of thumb with Rescue is if you don't get down in the first 24 hours, then don't go down at all.

The first explosion was a Methane explosion which has destroyed all the Ventilation Controls, So we are now building to a Massive Coal / Methane Explosion.

The Environment down there would be Horrendous, Visibility Probably Nil, But 10 Years Younger and given a chance I would be down there in a Flash.

Best Wishes Rabes.

Heartbreaking stuff, hope the families get some news today...

[Huang Chung]

Many will want to see them trade, but I would have thought it preferable to suspend the shares until financing is clearer, rather than allow them to be transferred to the naive.

Agree. Shades of Oz Minerals during the GFC when they were seeking to negotiate with their banking syndicate to renew their loans after they'd virtually burned through all their cash trying to get Prominant Hill comissioned. Oz (in conjunction with the ASX) kept its shares suspended until their was a higher level of certainty around their ability to continue operating. In Oz's case, it was around 3-4 months from memory.

[macduffy]

Agree. Shades of Oz Minerals during the GFC when they were seeking to negotiate with their banking syndicate to renew their loans after they'd virtually burned through all their cash trying to get Prominant Hill comissioned. Oz (in conjunction with the ASX) kept its shares suspended until their was a higher level of certainty around their ability to continue operating. In Oz's case, it was around 3-4 months from memory.

And at the time there was a lot of criticism of the company over the length of that suspension.

But it turned out to be the correct decision and almost certainly saved a lot of shareholders from selling out from an uninformed position.

[soletrader]

I am a long time shareholder in PPP, and as their is a tenuous connection, and the plight of Pike River Miners has made International News, I thought I should visit here to show support. But the theme I find running trough some posts is a few sicko's speculating about whether or not it is now a buy or sell. I may be from the other side of thje Globe, but if you guys are Kiwi you should be ashamed of yourselves. Perhaps respect died with your fathers generation, if indeed some of you had one.

[Balance]

I am a long time shareholder in PPP, and as their is a tenuous connection, and the plight of Pike River Miners has made International News, I thought I should visit here to show support. But the theme I find running trough some posts is a few sicko's speculating about whether or not it is now a buy or sell. I may be from the other side of thje Globe, but if you guys are Kiwi you should be ashamed of yourselves. Perhaps respect died with your fathers generation, if indeed some of you had one.

Try this if you want to show support :

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10688811

[Doc]

Is it just me or are there some obvious questions that have not been asked or answered?

Like if there is combustion occurring in the mine (as stated by Peter Whittal)- then wouldn't that pose a higher risk of igniting a secondary explosion that any cameras or robots?
Isn't there already any number of pieces of equipment and machinery in the mine that could set off a secondary explosion with at least equal likelihood than any camera or robot?
Can't they use the mine ventilation shaft to lower in a camera , temperature sensors, robot etc? Surely if there is air flowing through the shaft then there must be pretty much zero risk of methane levels high enough in the shaft to cause a secondary explosion via this route?
Couldn't two people with breathing apparatus rapel down the ~150m mine ventilation shaft for 10mins to assess the damage at the pit bottom and check for blockage of roadways, possibly deploy a robot etc?
Couldn't they drive a blast proof vehicle up the main tunnel to the abandoned loader? If fresh air is flowing up the tunnel (as reported) there would be no risk of sparking a secondary explosion as far as the loader (~1.7 km up the tunnel). If a secondary blast were to occur further into the mine, there would be negligible risk in a blast proof vehicle at the 1.7km mark in the tunnel particularly since this was where someone survived the initial blast/s without any real protection. Surely a robot or remote vehicle could be launched from this area from a blast proof vehicle, immediately.

My personal assessment is that the public are not being told the full story and there is a lot of stalling occurring.

[warthog]

Is it just me or are there some obvious questions that have not been asked or answered?

Like if there is combustion occurring in the mine (as stated by Peter Whittal)- then wouldn't that pose a higher risk of igniting a secondary explosion that any cameras or robots?
Isn't there already any number of pieces of equipment and machinery in the mine that could set off a secondary explosion with at least equal likelihood than any camera or robot?
Can't they use the mine ventilation shaft to lower in a camera , temperature sensors, robot etc? Surely if there is air flowing through the shaft then there must be pretty much zero risk of methane levels high enough in the sharft to cause a secondary explosion via this route?
Couldn't two people with breathing apparatus rapel down the ~150m mine shaft for 10mins to assess the damage and check for blockage of roadways, deploy a robot etc?
Couldn't they drive a blast proof vehicle up the main tunnel to the loader? If fresh air is flowing up the shaft (as reported) there would be no risk of sparking a secondary explosion as far as the loader (~1.7 km up the tunnel). If a secondary blast were to occur further into the mine, there would be negligible risk in a blast proof vehicle particularly since this was were someone survived the initial blast/s without protection. Surely a robot could launched from this area from a blast proof vehicle, immediately.

My personal assessment is that the public are not being told the full story and there is a lot of stalling occurring.

The hog agrees that the full story won't be known for some time, and would add that there is very obvious "management" occurring regarding various aspects of the situation.

However, much of the above post belongs in James Bond films. For example, in such restricted spaces the full force of an explosion is strongly directional. If anything is between the explosion and the outside, it is at serious risk.

Also ... robots? Have you seen the robots deployed to explode bombs, etc., and how generally un-mobile they are?

Update:Monday 221110@1334: talk of putting a robot into the mine but really, this will be problematic.

[Beagle]

I am a long time shareholder in PPP, and as their is a tenuous connection, and the plight of Pike River Miners has made International News, I thought I should visit here to show support. But the theme I find running trough some posts is a few sicko's speculating about whether or not it is now a buy or sell. I may be from the other side of thje Globe, but if you guys are Kiwi you should be ashamed of yourselves. Perhaps respect died with your fathers generation, if indeed some of you had one.

Get off your high horse dude. Everyone seems to have forgotten that there's nearly a third of a billion dollars at stake, besides there's plenty of other forum's to discuss and show support. Perhaps you've forgotten this is a forum for sharetrading and investment ?

Lets get real, all those miners knew bloody well there are risks and chose to take them and they are paid well to take them.

Twelve people died on N.Z. roads last week yet there's not one ounce of concern over that, go figure ?

I see absolutly no concern whatsoever in the media for the $300 million dollars of investors capital that's going up in smoke and I would suggest the only rational explanation for that is it isn't P.C. to express concern over massive capital loss when there's lives at risk.

Unfortunatly we live in an overtly politically correct world and I for one, am more than a little tired of it.

[Pete]

At the investor briefing in WN last week someone asked about the risks of earthquakes at the mine. When PW answered, I think he said they had insurance that covered repair costs and loss of production. Does anyone know if insurance would cover this sort of event, or would it depend on the root cause when that is found?

[shasta]

At the investor briefing in WN last week someone asked about the risks of earthquakes at the mine. When PW answered, I think he said they had insurance that covered repair costs and loss of production. Does anyone know if insurance would cover this sort of event, or would it depend on the root cause when that is found?

Insurers will look for blame by inadequate safety standards etc, I doubt any insurer would pay out, the blast would have been initiated by the Pike workers.

Thats the last thing they will be worried about right now.

[shasta]

If I drive my insured car (with current rego and warrant) into my driveway and happen to clip the corner of my insured house, I'd expect to be paid out.

What you "expect" & what insurance companies actually pay out for can be miles apart!

[Beagle]

Another way to look at this:- If this were an open cast mine we wouldn't have the situation presently at hand. Doesn't this beg the question of whether in something of an ironic way, whether all the greenies have inadvertantly had something of a hand in this unfortunate event ?

Makes me wonder if one of the reasons we will always play second fiddle to Australia is that we are so pedantic about our 100% clean and green image, yet another nausiating politically and environmentally correct stance that's costing us real economic growth and in this case, perhaps a more stark cost ?

[shasta]

Another way to look at this:- If this were an open cast mine we wouldn't have the situation presently at hand. Doesn't this beg the question of whether in something of an ironic way, whether all the greenies have inadvertantly had something of a hand in this unfortunate event ?

Remember the brunner seam is under the national park, it was never going to get the go ahead for an open cast mine, but i get your point, if the Govt wants to do mining (for Gold, Silver & other non coal resources) the greenies really cant complain about open cast mining now!

[fungus pudding]

If I drive my insured car (with current rego and warrant) into my driveway and happen to clip the corner of my insured house, I'd expect to be paid out.

Registration and WOF are not requirements for insurance, and insurers cannot decline claims on that basis because they do not contribute to an accident. Roadworthiness is if it contributed. If you lose control on a wet road with bald tires you won't get paid out, wof or not. If someone drives into your parked vehicle with bald tires and no wof - then you will. If you drive your own car into your own house there's a whole set of standard insurance rules which may mean you cannot claim.

[warthog]

if the Govt wants to do mining (for Gold, Silver & other non coal resources) the greenies really cant complain about open cast mining now!

This doesn't make sense. Every day, the Government of the day makes decisions concerning expenditure and the consequences, including safety/loss of life/etc. Fundamental decisions that will result in saving or loss of life. Commercial interests are obviously put before people's health and lives, as is practicality.

Maybe the hog missed something?

[warthog]

Registration and WOF are not requirements for insurance, and insurers cannot decline claims on that basis because they do not contribute to an accident. Roadworthiness is if it contributed. If you lose control on a wet road with bald tires you won't get paid out, wof or not. If someone drives into your parked vehicle with bald tires and no wof - then you will. If you drive your own car into your own house there's a whole set of standard insurance rules which may mean you cannot claim.

That's right fungus. No WOF, no insurance. However, making a mistake while driving, even a significant mistake, won't void a claim.

[h2so4]

"But at the end of the day this is a search and recovery operation. We are going to go in and do our best to bring these guys to out."

Question for you h2: do you see the word "rescue" anywhere?

Sorry.

Realistic Warhog

I'm not a realist.

Sorry.

[bung5]

PRC has general liability insurance to cover certian losses

[warthog]

I'm not a realist.

Sorry.

Ah good. Everything makes sense again.

[fungus pudding]

That's right fungus. No WOF, no insurance. However, making a mistake while driving, even a significant mistake, won't void a claim.

Wrong. Read what I wrote. An insurer cannot decline an insurance claim purely on the basis of not having a warrant. But they can decline if the vehicle is not roadworthy, provided the fault contributed to the accident.

[h2so4]

Ah good. Everything makes sense again.

Haha! Well I'm pleased you have clarity again warthog.

[Logen Ninefingers]

There should have been a full inquiry into this mine when the ventilation shaft collapsed. I want to know why the rebuilt portion of the ventilation shaft was at a much more constricted diameter than the original ventilation shaft, and did this compromise the airflow and the exit of gases from the mine.

Why are the missing men being referred to as 'trapped', when their status is unknown, no-one has had any cellphone contact from them, and there is no information that anything is trapping them? Their status is missing.

[Logen Ninefingers]

is your cellphone contact question some kind of sick joke

No, why? I understand one of the miners that walked out rang ahead to say he was coming out, so some of the miners must have been carrying cell phones.

[Logen Ninefingers]

From Wiki, on the Big Branch disaster:

Due to the large concentration of toxic gasses in the mine, MSHA investigators had to wait for over two months to enter the mine for investigation. Investigators were able to enter the mine on July 2, 2010.

Investigative teams from MSHA and the West Virginia Office of Miners’ Health, Safety and Training, after extensively exploring the mine in order to make sure that it was safe for investigators to enter, began their probe into the causes of the disaster on June 28, 2010. Multiple teams will work inside the mine, each team having a different area of expertise. Currently, three teams from the U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration, the State of West Virginia, and Massey Energy are working together to determine the cause of the explosion and assess the best way to make the mine safe to reopen. The investigation is moving slowly due to problems such as debris, standing water, and roof collapses. The office of West Virgina governor Joe Manchin says that the investigation may not be complete by the end of the year.
The investigative team has interviewed 126 people knowledgeable about the mine, and has plans to interview 100 more.
In addition to MSHA, the FBI has also launched a probe, investigating possible criminal wrongdoing at the mine, including criminal negligence and possible bribery of federal regulators.
Mine safety investigators are still searching for an exact cause, though the methane explosion, largely preventable by proper ventilation, is being closely examined.

[fungus pudding]

No, why? I understand one of the miners that walked out rang ahead to say he was coming out, so some of the miners must have been carrying cell phones.

Rang on a cell phone? Not likely. even if anyone was silly enoughto take a cellphone into a mine with explosive gases, there wouldn't be any coverage.

[robo]

Rang on a cell phone? Not likely. even if anyone was silly enoughto take a cellphone into a mine with explosive gases, there wouldn't be any coverage.


Yeah spot on fungi,not even supposed to use ya mobile at the service station ,so mine would real dangerous

[Logen Ninefingers]

Present Danger and How to Limit Risk
http://www.methanegasdetectors.com/info/the-most-common-occurrences-for-methane-gas-explosions/

"The risk of methane gas explosions is not, unfortunately, confined to history. The facts described here relating to natural gas, garbage-produced methane and coal mining speak for themselves. . The technology for prevention is here. Those who do not use the tools available will be at fault for future explosions. The most advanced technology for reducing methane explosion risk is the BPA Laser Methane Gas Detector. Click on the orange button to receive a free video, price list, PowerPoint presentation and user’s manual. The hand held laser gun instantly analyzes methane levels as low as 10 ppm, and works from a distance of up to 500 feet. It is the latest advancement in methane detection that is widely available as an off the shelf product."

[Logen Ninefingers]

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100511/158975626.html

Even the most advanced safety system cannot provide 100% protection against methane gas explosions in mines such as the one in Siberia last weekend, a leading Russian expert said on Tuesday.

Two blasts that hit a coal mine at Kemerovo region in Western Siberia on Saturday night claimed at least 52 lives leaving more than 70 people injured and 38 people missing.

"To tell the truth, methane has always been there in the coal mines, and unfortunately there are no effective systems capable of immediately switching off electric equipment ... when an explosive concentration of methane is detected," said Anatoly Dzhigrin, head of research at Skochinsky Institute of National Mining Research Center.

He said it takes existing anti-explosion systems up to 15 seconds to analyze the risk, more than enough time to spark an explosion. Dzhirgin said work on faster detectors has not yet reached a practical stage.

Dzhigrin said he was sure the first blast was caused by methane while the second one was probably caused by coal dust, which could have been localized.

According to Dzhigrin, it is easier to avert blasts caused by coal dust than methane. There a lot of advanced methods to avoid explosive concentrations of coal dust developing in a mine. One of them is the irrigation of the coal masses with special moisturizing substances that prevents the dust to turn into suspension.

[mr.needs]

No, why? I understand one of the miners that walked out rang ahead to say he was coming out, so some of the miners must have been carrying cell phones.

Cellphones do not work 2km underground. The phone you are referring to is a fixed line phone located in the tunnel.

[Logen Ninefingers]

come on logen,if you dont realise the danger of cellphones in a gas enviroment you shouldnt be investing in them

I've never invested in cell phones.

[mouse]

Cellphones do not work 2km underground. The phone you are referring to is a fixed line phone located in the tunnel.
I think there is 'flameproof' certified machinery, including electrical stuff, and 'explosion proof' certified machinery, including electrical stuff. The descriptions may differ from what I have used, but basically it is flameproof and explosion proof.
All electrical wiring has to be in metal conduit which has to be certified, plus any switchgear has to be enclosed. So all of the stuff has to be certified to be used underground in a coal mine.
Underground telephones would be explosion proof. I do not know how they work.
An old comment is that there are three causes of fire, men, women and children. So we may have had the explosion caused by equipment failure, or people, or wrong design.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Cellphones do not work 2km underground. The phone you are referring to is a fixed line phone located in the tunnel.

Ok, thanks.

[Logen Ninefingers]

INQUIRY 'ALMOST CERTAIN'

A Commission of Inquiry in to the Pike River coalmine tragedy appears almost certain.

Prime Minister John Key this afternoon returned to Wellington for a Cabinet meeting after a second visit to the Pike River coalmine, near Greymouth, this morning.

Key told reporters the explosion at the mine was "very unusual".

He appeared to suggest that a commission of inquiry would unfold after the crisis was over. He said he did not want to speculate on what structure a commission of inquiry would take.

However, a Royal Commission of Inquiry was typically for social issues and a commission of inquiry had been set up after the Cave Creek tragedy.

"It is a highly, highly irregular event that has taken place and we'll need to understand what the cause of that is," he said.

"There will be an inquiry, if not inquiries in to what has taken place at Pike River."

[warthog]

Wrong. Read what I wrote. An insurer cannot decline an insurance claim purely on the basis of not having a warrant. But they can decline if the vehicle is not roadworthy, provided the fault contributed to the accident.

Interesting.

The hog asked its insurance company this very question and they stated that the insurance was void if the vehicle didn't have a current WOF. Maybe they are leading the hog down the garden path?

[warthog]

Haha! Well I'm pleased you have clarity again warthog.

Hog thinks so too. Doesn't last for long, but when it comes, it is sublime!

[peat]

from my insurance studies this year I would agree with fungus.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Geologist warned of danger of explosion three years ago
PAUL GORMAN AND KIRAN CHUG
Last updated 05:00 22/11/2010

A West Coast geologist warned about the threat of explosions from gas in the Pike River mine more than three years ago.

And a second mining expert says initial investigations of the mine were inhibited because of its location in Paparoa National Park.

Meanwhile, Canterbury University geologist David Bell has admitted his fears for the 29 trapped men, saying: "I don't believe the guys down there have got a hope."

Western Exploration director Murray Cave said in 2007 that the geological risks at the underground site included a pit bottom with deep, highly gassy coals and the associated risk of "outburst", or gas explosions.

He warned of the presence of an underground fault that had to be crossed at the mine site and pointed to Solid Energy's short-lived Mt Davy mine, which was shut in 1998 after three miners were killed in two accidents.

Yesterday, Mr Cave said the Pike River coal was at the "higher end of the scale" for gaseousness, and each tonne contained about 10 cubic metres of gas.

[Logen Ninefingers]

So for every 1,000 tonnes of coal that's 10,000 cbm of gas. That's like 315 x 20' containers of gas for every 1,000 tonnes.

[mouse]

Most of the costs of Pike have now been paid and the equipment above ground is not seriously damaged. The entrance tunnel seems to be OK. All of the equipment inside the mine has to be replaced. But it is not expensive to replace it.
Staff need to be kept on and wages paid, plus we should make payments to injured miners or their families should the worst eventuate. That will cost cash.:mellow:
The danger is that the fire in the mine gets worse and prevents us getting into the mine. But that could be dealt with.

My vote is to complete the recovery, using Govt cash if necessary, and then refinance the mine. I am very happy to put more cash into the venture after the trapped miners have been got out.:(

Peter Whittell is brilliant in this situation. I am so glad we have him.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Most of the costs of Pike have now been paid and the equipment above ground is not seriously damaged. The entrance tunnel seems to be OK. All of the equipment inside the mine has to be replaced. But it is not expensive to replace it.
Staff need to be kept on and wages paid, plus we should make payments to injured miners or their families should the worst eventuate. That will cost cash.:mellow:
The danger is that the fire in the mine gets worse and prevents us getting into the mine. But that could be dealt with.

My vote is to complete the recovery, using Govt cash if necessary, and then refinance the mine. I am very happy to put more cash into the venture after the trapped miners have been got out.:(

10,000 cbm of gas for every 1,000 tonnes of coal. As soon as they tried to ramp up production we had a catastrophic explosion. Mouse, with that much gas in the mine you have to question whether it was wise to try to mine out this coal in the first place, given the Mt Davy experience. The experts are saying the gas levels are the upper end of the scale for any mine anywhere. There will be a Royal Commission of Inquiry into this, of that I am certain. The safety and ventilation aspects of this are going to be under the microscope.

[mouse]

10,000 cbm of gas for every 1,000 tonnes of coal. As soon as they tried to ramp up production we had a catastrophic explosion. Mouse, with that much gas in the mine you have to question whether it was wise to try to mine out this coal in the first place, given the Mt Davy experience. The experts are saying the gas levels are the upper end of the scale for any mine anywhere. There will be a Royal Commission of Inquiry into this, of that I am certain. The safety and ventilation aspects of this are going to be under the microscope.

Of course there will be an enquiry. But that could take a significant amount of time. We Pikers could in the meantime be called upon to finance the company before the enquiry report is out. I am very willing to put in more cash. HOWEVER, please do not tell either my wife or kids. They have forbidden it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Of course there will be an enquiry. But that could take a significant amount of time. We Pikers could in the meantime be called upon to finance the company before the enquiry report is out. I am very willing to put in more cash. HOWEVER, please do not tell either my wife or kids. They have forbidden it.

I'd say that Pike River is finished. I lost a little bit of money with the few thousand options I had left, but not my life. It is a total tragedy and disaster for the coast and the serious investors that believed in this project. There was a lot of pressure on to ramp up production and they hadn't even ramped up to the full extent and there was a massive explosion. I wonder how many investors knew that their mine was one of the gassiest going around. Probably not many. We were always in the dark trying to get info and we didn't know diddly squat in the end. I'm pretty sure Balance was right with his bunch of amateurs comments....too many people involved that didn't have a clue. Some of the equipment they'd purchased was woefully inadequate and if it was true of the continuous mining equipment they had, I don't see why that wouldn't have been replicated through the mine. Very sad.

[fungus pudding]

Interesting.

The hog asked its insurance company this very question and they stated that the insurance was void if the vehicle didn't have a current WOF. Maybe they are leading the hog down the garden path?

I think they are. The vehicle must be safe and if any fault that is a normal WOF item, brakes steering etc, contribute to an accident then they can decline a claim. In other words a driver should keep his vehicle to WOF standard (which is what I think they would have said) but it's not the piece of paper stuck on the window that they want; even if it has a WOF it still must be kept up to standard.

[robo]

why did they have to flyin the 'special' equipment from oz; should they have not had this equipment here in the first place, thought it woul have been a automatic prerequiste of operating this kind of mine

[Beagle]

I'd say that Pike River is finished. I lost a little bit of money with the few thousand options I had left, but not my life. It is a total tragedy and disaster for the coast and the serious investors that believed in this project. There was a lot of pressure on to ramp up production and they hadn't even ramped up to the full extent and there was a massive explosion. I wonder how many investors knew that their mine was one of the gassiest going around. Probably not many. We were always in the dark trying to get info and we didn't know diddly squat in the end. I'm pretty sure Balance was right with his bunch of amateurs comments....too many people involved that didn't have a clue. Some of the equipment they'd purchased was woefully inadequate and if it was true of the continuous mining equipment they had, I don't see why that wouldn't have been replicated through the mine. Very sad.

I agree, the whole thing from beginning to end looks like a complete unmitigated fiasco. NZO would be very unwise to throw good money after bad and try and keep this zombie company on life support when the inevitable is so obvious.

[Reeves]

Peter Whittell is brilliant in this situation. I am so glad we have him.

Mouse I totally agree, Peter Whittell has done an excellent job in facing the media.
Does anyone know how these rescue operations are funded? With PRC low on cash reserves, and their short term funding agreement due to NZO soon. Is government assistance available in these instances?
The hopeful rescue of the missing miners is the highest priority, I just hope that we all get some good news soon.

Reeves

[Huang Chung]

State your source of experts. There were no gas alerts prior to the explosion. The mine has been considered a low methane gas producing operation.The most probable cause I have read, is a siesmic shift releasing a bubble of natural gas near the fault line.

If that proves correct, it would have to be a first, wouldn't it?

How on earth could you ensure such a thing wouldn't happen again?

[iceman]

Most of the costs of Pike have now been paid and the equipment above ground is not seriously damaged. The entrance tunnel seems to be OK. All of the equipment inside the mine has to be replaced. But it is not expensive to replace it.
Staff need to be kept on and wages paid, plus we should make payments to injured miners or their families should the worst eventuate. That will cost cash.:mellow:
The danger is that the fire in the mine gets worse and prevents us getting into the mine. But that could be dealt with.

My vote is to complete the recovery, using Govt cash if necessary, and then refinance the mine. I am very happy to put more cash into the venture after the trapped miners have been got out.:(

Peter Whittell is brilliant in this situation. I am so glad we have him.

I'm with you on this one Mouse, as long as there is not a serious fire burning down there. But now we just need to get our miners out of there as soon as we possibly can. I also completely agree with you regarding Peter Whittall. He's has done and admirable job in very difficult circumstances. Full marks to him for that.

[Bilo]

How on earth could you ensure such a thing wouldn't happen again?

It makes you wonder if by using Coal Seam gas technologies to first bleed as much of the gas out of the coal as possible would have helped. Pump electricity out rather than buy it in. Eventually the coal could be mined. Emissions to atmosphere would be significantly less. Then work a single face to dig coal, instead of all these panels, and allow the rock to collapse back into the space once occupied by the coal to reduce build up of pockets of gas. It would reduce the escarpment by 3m - who driving along a remote road kilometres distant, or what vegetation 100m above, would notice? We could have pipes hanging off the escarpment while the gas was bleed out - temporarily. Perhaps the DOC restrictions should have signalled a different project, or no project at all, or a different interpretation of DOC objectives. Isn't hindsight wonderful? But now we wait and hope for the men and their families. There are lessons here somewhere.

[Huang Chung]

But a bubble of natural gas moving up through the fault is something else entirely, and I would imagine, unexpected and unplanned for.

[brucey09]

Snrs.
my sympathy to all peoples and Kiwis involved

[digger]

Hi all
Have just come back from overseas and am in the same state of shock about this PIKE tradegy as is everyone else. For now we can only hope for the best and have to stay with the recovery whatever the outcome.Thoughts and prayers with the families.

[peat]

press mood is turning this morning reflecting the mood of those waiting with still no rescue attempt after four days.

[Doyle]

press mood is turning this morning reflecting the mood of those waiting with still no rescue attempt after four days.

Article Iread even acknowledged the possibility that there was a fire still burning. Such heresay from the press was unthinkable two days ago.

[arjay]

press mood is turning this morning reflecting the mood of those waiting with still no rescue attempt after four days.

As I said on the NZO thread, in these situations the press will always start a witch hunt.

Gordon Ward must have a guardian angel I reckon.

[Nitaa]

I am a long time shareholder in PPP, and as their is a tenuous connection, and the plight of Pike River Miners has made International News, I thought I should visit here to show support. But the theme I find running trough some posts is a few sicko's speculating about whether or not it is now a buy or sell. I may be from the other side of thje Globe, but if you guys are Kiwi you should be ashamed of yourselves. Perhaps respect died with your fathers generation, if indeed some of you had one.I showed my wife some of the posts where some were only concerned about how to make money out of this mess. She was sickened like myself that it appears that some investors only concerned is how do i make a buck out of it. I do have to say that most people have shown good human character and have put the miners wellbeing as of paramount importance.

Good luck to all concerned today and I will hang on to a sliver of hope that some are still alive.

[skid]

I agree, The fact that this is a sharetrader forum and we are trying to make some capital gain,does not exempt us from basic respect for human life,and even the envirnment,for that matter.You can call it being" poltiically correct",but in the end we all have to decide which values are really most important. I have the deepest respect for those who have retained thier integrity in the face of capital loss.

[Ian]

As a shareholder the lives of the men down the mine absolutely come first, no questions there –I'm also interested in understanding what it means for my investment, not to try and make a quick buck but so I can make informed investment decisions when the time is right. Like most of us here I are VERY concerned about the miners and there families. I hope they keep the trading halt on for as long as possible so the focus can stay on the miners and families where it should be.

[whatsup]

As I said on the NZO thread, in these situations the press will always start a witch hunt.

Gordon Ward must have a guardian angel I reckon.

IMHO --- has
to take some responsibility for this , if they were no so paranoid about their precious third grade forest in the first place they would have let PRC form a road right up the hill s to the point where the coal seam breaks to the surface and then start mining from here. This would have eliminated cost over runs, the need for this very expensive tunnel, ventalation shaft ( in this instance- it could have been needed later on ) faster route to a positive cash flow.
Once the mine, all access roads and inforstructure areas are finished with the area is replanted with superior native
trees at the ratio of 2 for every one that they took out in the first place ,this is what happens in British Colombia Canada in areas where I have worked in the mining industry, they have a mature attitude to mining not some politically driven envy attitude.
THE ABOVE ARE MY VIEWS ONLY.

[mouse]

As a shareholder the lives of the men down the mine absolutely come first, no questions there –I'm also interested in understanding what it means for my investment, not to try and make a quick buck but so I can make informed investment decisions when the time is right. Like most of us here I are VERY concerned about the miners and there families. I hope they keep the trading halt on for as long as possible so the focus can stay on the miners and families where it should be.
I am concerned that we should not give up hope for the trapped miners until all possible rescue attempts have been made. However, we should also not throw up our hands in despair over getting the mine working again. Everything above ground is intact. The tunnel into the mine is also intact. It will take some cash, but what we are looking at is jobs on the coast. I am very willing to put more cash in to protect those jobs. However, my holding in Pike is only about one third of my investment in the sharemarket.

[skid]

Looks like the robot has broken down and one of the drill operators has been injured-just goes to show how dicey these things can be

[Nitaa]

As I said on the NZO thread, in these situations the press will always start a witch hunt.

Gordon Ward must have a guardian angel I reckon.Very lucky in one sense but he must be feeling it alot more than most. What was the reason for his departure?

[fish]

If the robot broke down because of water encounter maybe the mine is less likely to be on fire and less of an explosion risk .
Its long overdue that a rescue team be sent in-maybe firemen may be better kitted up for this kind of thing as they say the tunnels are stable

[warthog]

My vote is to complete the recovery, using Govt cash if necessary

Surely this will raise the eyebrows of the free-market zelots here?

Shouldn't businesses be allowed to fail, before being purchased out of receivership?

Surely we can't have capitalism for the poor, and socialism for the rich?

[fish]

As I said on the NZO thread, in these situations the press will always start a witch hunt.

Gordon Ward must have a guardian angel I reckon.

I bought nzo and prc on the day of the explosion so if I have a guardian angel the message is dont trade in shares and dont retire early . The money is not important,life is and mine is taking another change in direction .

[Logen Ninefingers]

State your source of experts. There were no gas alerts prior to the explosion. The mine has been considered a low methane gas producing operation.The most probable cause I have read, is a siesmic shift releasing a bubble of natural gas near the fault line.

Geologist warned of danger of explosion three years ago
PAUL GORMAN AND KIRAN CHUG
Last updated 05:00 22/11/2010

A West Coast geologist warned about the threat of explosions from gas in the Pike River mine more than three years ago.

And a second mining expert says initial investigations of the mine were inhibited because of its location in Paparoa National Park.

Meanwhile, Canterbury University geologist David Bell has admitted his fears for the 29 trapped men, saying: "I don't believe the guys down there have got a hope."

Western Exploration director Murray Cave said in 2007 that the geological risks at the underground site included a pit bottom with deep, highly gassy coals and the associated risk of "outburst", or gas explosions.

He warned of the presence of an underground fault that had to be crossed at the mine site and pointed to Solid Energy's short-lived Mt Davy mine, which was shut in 1998 after three miners were killed in two accidents.

Yesterday, Mr Cave said the Pike River coal was at the "higher end of the scale" for gaseousness, and each tonne contained about 10 cubic metres of gas.

[Nitaa]

Surely this will raise the eyebrows of the free-market zelots here?

Shouldn't businesses be allowed to fail, before being purchased out of receivership?

Surely we can't have capitalism for the poor, and socialism for the rich?So true and rather ironic

[blockhead]

Fish, I don't think you have a very good understanding of what goes on when there is a combination of flamable gas, fuel and air. Only need to add one ingredient...ignition source !! Best way to do that, send a whole bunch of people in, kick a piece of smouldering coal and bingo you can add all the firemen to the 29 already in there.

Great for "breaking news" for all the TV channels though.

Don't be so damn stupid, with what I can tell from the outside all possible is being done.

I am referring to your post #7545 suggesting sending firemen in

[Monkey Poms]

IMHO --- has
to take some responsibility for this , if they were no so paranoid about their precious third grade forest in the first place they would have let PRC form a road right up the hill s to the point where the coal seam breaks to the surface and then start mining from here. This would have eliminated cost over runs, the need for this very expensive tunnel, ventalation shaft ( in this instance- it could have been needed later on ) faster route to a positive cash flow.
Once the mine, all access roads and inforstructure areas are finished with the area is replanted with superior native
trees at the ratio of 2 for every one that they took out in the first place ,this is what happens in British Colombia Canada in areas where I have worked in the mining industry, they have a mature attitude to mining not some politically driven envy attitude.
THE ABOVE ARE MY VIEWS ONLY.

Hi Whatsup. Good post. It may be too late now,your description of how Pike should have been allowed to proceed with the start up of PRC together with the Longwall method of mining would have been a far safer way to progress the mine from the start.
I would not say this is hindsight, more a case of rejection by planning authorities from the beginning.
I may have been critical of Gordon Ward in the past, but his dealings with the planning authorities must have been very frustrating.

Monkey Poms

[skid]

Im sure we all agree,its frustrating,all this waiting.But its also important,i suppose,that we have all grown up watching movies where the hero romps in and saves all the prisoners,miners,whatever..sometimes we have to forget the sensationalism and face the horrible and boring,frustrating truth,that it takesw time to make sure more life is not lost.Im sure we would all be glued to the live TV if they were heading in right now.It would be great to see and even exciting,but not necessarily right.we just dont know do we?

[LJB]

No economic system is perfect. The US was unashamed capitalist in dogma but when the house of cards fell over in 2008 the govt stepped in, in true socialist fashion for the public good (much to the chagrin of capitalist purists). In the case of PRC the question is whether a govt bailout would be of sufficient public good. The socialist dogma of the NZ Labour Party began on the West Coast with the overwhelming support of the miners of that era. Certainly the effect on the Buller/Westcoast economy would be huge if this project, so near to fruition, was allowed to fall over completely.

[Beagle]

PRC shareholders should be very very grateful indeed that NZO have agreed to provide on-going funding to the tune of another $12m, i.e. the balance of the $25m facility. In normal commercial terms the mine event would amount to Force Majure and further funding draw-downs from this facility would be prohibited.

PRC shareholders and staff have just been given something of a life-line in what amounts to a $12m gift to continue to fund this so called business.

[geezy]

Hi Whatsup. Good post. It may be too late now,your description of how Pike should have been allowed to proceed with the start up of PRC together with the Longwall method of mining would have been a far safer way to progress the mine from the start.
I would not say this is hindsight, more a case of rejection by planning authorities from the beginning.
I may have been critical of Gordon Ward in the past, but his dealings with the planning authorities must have been very frustrating.

Monkey Poms


Agreed, as this is a known fact in NZ , where the mining industry is severely held back by all the "unnecessary" resistance, while we continue to see a net migration of nz-ers to oz for a better economic future. Makes me wonder what is going wrong with the country's direction.

PRC will be priced to naught, with little or no production, no cash and an explosion. this is truly tragic.


Disc: held PRC since IPO and NZO.

[Beagle]

[QUOTE
PRC will be priced to naught, with little or no production, no cash and an explosion. this is truly tragic.QUOTE]Make that past tense, they allready have been. The market has priced NZO as if PRC has sizeable negative value to it, which clearly it does as it hands out the $12m gift mentioned above.

[Doc]

Again, I don't understand why they don't drive an armoured blast proof vehicle part way down the tunnel and launch the robot or a remote vehicle from there (say 1.5km in since that is where the abandoned loader is and where someone survived the intiial blast/s with no protection). If anyone has a contact with people involved, can someone at least suggest it? Higher chance of success with robot approach if it is launched less than 500m from pit bottom than at the tunnel entrance.

[peat]

margin now going to 100% on this stock.

[duncan macgregor]

Bunch of no hoopers. Somebody at least should have gone in with breathing gear as far as they could go. Bunch of incompetant poofters in my book, the chance of getting them out alive is almost over. If heat is the problem why not say so?. Macdunk

[Logen Ninefingers]

No economic system is perfect. The US was unashamed capitalist in dogma but when the house of cards fell over in 2008 the govt stepped in, in true socialist fashion for the public good (much to the chagrin of capitalist purists). In the case of PRC the question is whether a govt bailout would be of sufficient public good. The socialist dogma of the NZ Labour Party began on the West Coast with the overwhelming support of the miners of that era. Certainly the effect on the Buller/Westcoast economy would be huge if this project, so near to fruition, was allowed to fall over completely.

I'm not a socialist or a communist but is an absolute joke that Obama and the democrats are in the gun from right wingers in the USA for bailing out the banks and big business. The bail outs started under Bush and, if they hadn't happened, it would have meant the complete collapse of our entire system in the west. These tea party tossers and vested interests have a cheek. These ****er bankers and silver spoon tossers create nothing but obscene wealth for themselves, and then have the cheek to blame and accuse the people who saved their bacon, who saved their wealth and status after their own outrageous greed had almost killed capitalism dead. This is an extremely sick world we are living in where the true spirit of private enterprise and hard work leading to reward has been twisted into the truly evil corporatised world we live in today. Gross personal enrichment and the acquisition of status and power at any cost has replaced personal integrity and respect and fairness. As a species, we are going backwards.

[mouse]

I'm not a socialist or a communist but is an absolute joke that Obama and the democrats are in the gun from right wingers in the USA for bailing out the banks and big business. The bail outs started under Bush and, if they hadn't happened, it would have meant the complete collapse of our entire system in the west. These tea party tossers and vested interests have a cheek. These ****er bankers and silver spoon tossers create nothing but obscene wealth for themselves, and then have the cheek to blame and accuse the people who saved their bacon, who saved their wealth and status after their own outrageous greed had almost killed capitalism dead. This is an extremely sick world we are living in where the true spirit of private enterprise and hard work leading to reward has been twisted into the truly evil corporatised world we live in today. Gross personal enrichment and the acquisition of status and power at any cost has replaced personal integrity and respect and fairness. As a species, we are going backwards.
Good post Logen. If NZ Govt do not help out financially for a bit then Pike will go overseas. I can already see NZOG dumping their holding overseas. It may be they have to. Hence we need Govt to give a helping hand to keep Pike in NZ hands. Or at least as much as we can hang onto. Pike Mine is an important cog in the West Coast employment scene. I suspect most Coasters want it to continue to operate. Note however, I live in Christchurch, not Greymouth.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I don't think this mine should ever have gone ahead. If they had just started to ramp up production and they had an explosion of that magnitude, how were they ever going to get 1.3 million tonnes per year out.
To be honest, amongst the genuine posters here I reckon there are about 30% who are directly employed by either NZO or PRC and are out on P.R. campaign on behalf of these companies. PRC has been an on-going series of balls-ups, and I welcome the coming inquiry. It should focus on the following:
1/ Were warnings ignored with respect to the gas levels involved in this form of mining in this mine. i.e. Rather than blaming 'greenies' and governments, once it was clear that open-cast or longwall mining was out, was it correct to press ahead with the method of mining utilised, if it compromised safety? If something cannot be done safely, it is not appropriate to do it, no matter how many million tonnes of coal are there.....human life is more important than profits.
2/ Why were escape chambers not part of the mine construction? Was it a matter of cost?
3/ Given the gaseous environment of the mine; 10,000 cbm of methane for every 1,000 tonnes of coal; was the very latest in detection technology in place?

I'd still like to know why the ventilation shaft collapsed way back when. The number of people posting who put it down to "bad luck". What if you'd been standing at the bottom of it.... I guess if the mine roof collapsed it would be "bad luck"?????

[Logen Ninefingers]

Good post Logen. If NZ Govt do not help out financially for a bit then Pike will go overseas. I can already see NZOG dumping their holding overseas. It may be they have to. Hence we need Govt to give a helping hand to keep Pike in NZ hands. Or at least as much as we can hang onto. Pike Mine is an important cog in the West Coast employment scene. I suspect most Coasters want it to continue to operate. Note however, I live in Christchurch, not Greymouth.

I'm glad you agree mouse but there were a lot of fat cats who've done very well out of Pike and who walked away with millions of the lovely lolly. I think they are the scum of the earth but they don't care. Their sort ooze extreme arrogance and callousness and have empathy for no one. mouse, you believed it this project and I really feel sorry for you. Dreams die hard but this whole extended fiasco is a salutory lesson to all of us. Corporate greed is ultimately not worthy of our respect. Hard work and integrity and living life with some decency and respect are still worth something in this world. You may have millions of dollars but if you leached them from the people who are the salt of the earth then you are scum. There are too many users in the corporate community who treat human beings with extreme contempt.

[fish]

Bunch of no hoopers. Somebody at least should have gone in with breathing gear as far as they could go. Bunch of incompetant poofters in my book, the chance of getting them out alive is almost over. If heat is the problem why not say so?. Macdunk

The first time I saw Gary Knowles on tv-and he said we are not going in until we are sure it is 100% safe-It was clear that he was the wrong man to be running the show . Almost any rescue has risks-eg firefighters removing someone from a burning factory that could explode . In every situation the risks-eg of explosion must be weighed against the lives that might be saved . It is likely that some survived the blast -possibly injured-but they were spread out and methane would be unlikely to be everywhere
So we have a possible scenario of injured people being left to die until a policeman decides its 100% safe . That is not what a rescue is about and it will just become an exercise in retrieval of bodies

[digger]

Logan 9 fingers, i like your two last posts.I too often feel we are going backwards.
I have many many things i would like to say about this sad situation we are now in.Here is one.Take just the other day we hear Doc has given approval to make a track to the drilling site.And that the drilling machine is being taken apart and reassembled at the new drilling site.
Now lets go back about 3 to 3.5 years ago when i last spoke to PW.At that time i asked why small drills were not done from above every 200 hunders metres or so as we go into the mine. It would be ventilation and a communation point if ever needed.Well said pW that would be a very good idea but doc would never approve as unless a track was also made the drilling machine would have to be dismantled and reassembled at each site.Red tape means the idea just does not even get considered. So as a species are we going backwards we sure are.Well lets be honest we are but not so much the chinese.
Just returned fron Hong Kong on sunday. Relative who lives there pointed out the new high speed raIL network under construction in Hong Hong which will link to 50000kls of new track into china. While we bog down in red tape they approve this sort of thing in half a day.
Cheers anyway if you can find anything to be cheerful about.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Mine's gas made me sick: worker
Last updated 14:58 23/11/2010

A former Pike River Coal miner believes methane gas at the mine made him ill.

His symptoms included dizziness, high temperature and disorientation.

"I got real sweaty and I didn't know what I was doing," said the man, who asked not to be identified.

The symptoms, which he had never experienced before, began about a month after he had started work at the mine. He had had "blood tests, x-rays, everything", which proved inconclusive.

"The doctor is still making further inquiries in Christchurch."

After three weeks sick leave he decided to quit the mine. He now has another job and his health had improved, he said.

One of his mates at the Pike mine had experienced similar symptoms and was still on sick leave after about six weeks. Other miners had also been sick, but he was unsure of their symptoms.

[mouse]

I'm glad you agree mouse but there were a lot of fat cats who've done very well out of Pike and who walked away with millions of the lovely lolly. I think they are the scum of the earth but they don't care. Their sort ooze extreme arrogance and callousness and have empathy for no one. mouse, you believed it this project and I really feel sorry for you. Dreams die hard but this whole extended fiasco is a salutory lesson to all of us. Corporate greed is ultimately not worthy of our respect. Hard work and integrity and living life with some decency and respect are still worth something in this world. You may have millions of dollars but if you leached them from the people who are the salt of the earth then you are scum. There are too many users in the corporate community who treat human beings with extreme contempt.
My position is that I bought Pike at around 85 cents and sold at around $1.05. I now have only 10,000 shares which I bought back in at around 90cents. I think my net price is then about 60 cents per share. Do not feel sorry for me, I have done OK. So what if we have to plough more cash in, small fry like me can do it easily. The people I feel sorry for are the ones who have umpteen shares. They have lost a packet. However, people in the sharemarket have in general done better than those who put cash into finance companies.
What we have to consider is the mine and its job creation on the West Coast. Plus The Greens should be given their portion of blame over this fiasco.

[RRR]

I fear for the worst for miners. My thoughts are with the families and friends of the miners. How do you console them? Investors have lost only money but these guys have lost much more and lives...

10% of my share investment blown away in that blast-I can live with that. Diversification saved me here. Underground mines are inherently risky and I knew that. I have only myself to blame. Lots of lessons learned here.

[bung5]

When the ventilation shaft collapsed a portion of the money to get it fixed was recovered from insurance, as will equipment etc IF the mine does continue from this accident. best case scenario it could be up and running again in 3 months at a loss of less than 30 million with the help of small capital raising. worst case mine never reopens and company is tied up court cases until it is bankrupt

[digger]

The first time I saw Gary Knowles on tv-and he said we are not going in until we are sure it is 100% safe-It was clear that he was the wrong man to be running the show . Almost any rescue has risks-eg firefighters removing someone from a burning factory that could explode . In every situation the risks-eg of explosion must be weighed against the lives that might be saved . It is likely that some survived the blast -possibly injured-but they were spread out and methane would be unlikely to be everywhere
So we have a possible scenario of injured people being left to die until a policeman decides its 100% safe . That is not what a rescue is about and it will just become an exercise in retrieval of bodies

Hi fish.
Nothing is ever 100% safe.How did these poor creatures get to the site because no matter how they traveled they took a risk. But Fish i do not think that is the problem.The problem is the world we have created with OSH running the show.I have dealt with OSH before and it is clear to me they deal in one eyed ledger.They are there to count what could go wrong but never the balanced view that something could go right.If OSH and most of the NZ govt legistation were running the show when we decended from the common ape linkage we would still be up in trees because something could go wrong.Again they are set up to prevent any error even as this prevention elimates any hope of success which there structure is not balanced to record.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The corporate world is disgusting. If you have a job as a manager or executive, your job is not to look after your workers and to ensure they have what they need to do their job. Your job is two things:
1/ To keep your boss happy; to insulate him and to ensure that he see's things the way you want him to see things. This is easily done because you control the flow of information to him.
2/ To make the people below you do what your boss wants by any means necessary.
If you can do these 2 things, you will attain money and status.
Ultimately to do the above you must compromise your integrity. You must act in an amoral and dis-honest fashion. You must flatter others & be motivated by avarice, greed & a lust for status. Your motto will be "if it must be someone, it might as well be me". The truly productive and useful people are there to be overseen by you. You are the guy with the whip in the slave galley while the rowers give their all. You are not an entrepreneur. You are not a businessman. You create nothing. You are a cog in a corporate wheel, grinding people under for your own gain.

If you climb to the top of the tree, what a criminal you will be. Is it any wonder that we see such abysmal ethics and treatment of shareholders and workers by our companies. We are convenient sources of cash and labour to the bled. We are the aphids, and they are the ants. Is it any wonder that we see the same criminals and silver spooners wetting their beaks on so many different boards. And always with the same extreme arrogance, callousness & sense of entitlement.

[Kees]

how about a bumper sticker something like (S)PIKE A GREENIE.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Hi fish.
Nothing is ever 100% safe.How did these poor creatures get to the site because no matter how they traveled they took a risk. But Fish i do not think that is the problem.The problem is the world we have created with OSH running the show.I have dealt with OSH before and it is clear to me they deal in one eyed ledger.They are there to count what could go wrong but never the balanced view that something could go right.If OSH and most of the NZ govt legistation were running the show when we decended from the common ape linkage we would still be up in trees because something could go wrong.Again they are set up to prevent any error even as this prevention elimates any hope of success which there structure is not balanced to record.

If OSH and the inspector of mines were doing their job then I'm wondering how this catastrophe could have happened in the first place. What happened after the ventilation shaft collapsed???? Was there a full and frank investigation or did they play fast and loose with miners lives???? When something collapses or something explodes, do you have to have 29 people missing for it to be taken seriously???? Talk about shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted......did anyone take the complaints of the miners who said they were getting sick from the gas seriously???? Or was there so much money invested in this mine that these considerations got over-ridden in pursuit of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$???????

[Logen Ninefingers]

So now we are blaming greenies for a corporates decision to burrow 2.5 kilometres under the earth into a coal face emitting 10,000 cubic metres of methane gas for every 1,000 tonnes extracted, thereby putting human beings into a 2.5 kilometre long bazooka tube. Unbelieveable.

[digger]

This claytons search and rescue has brought back to me a story i was first introduced to in High school,and as i am 69 that is some time ago.Can not remember ever thinking about it since that time many decades gone by.The non risk mentality and the must be 100% safe before we can do anything has brought back this story in my mind.The only difference then to now is that we have institalised this level of cowardness using OSH and other govt regulations
The story is true from Quebec french military history. In the very early days of Montreal settlement a Indian attack took place where the indians caputured by supprise about 200 pepole and took them to be tortured..The indians also took as much firewater as they could get there hand on and drank it .
Just down the waterway and in hearing was a large FRENCH milatary force .The french soldiers loaded up their boats to attack when the acting commander ordered them to return to base as he had to lead them and not wanting to take any risks felt it could be an ambush. The truth of the situation at the time the french soldier would have attacked had it gone ahead would have completely elimated the indians as they were hopelessly drunk.So drunk that some prisoners simply walked away to tell the story.We as students were taught that story as no action was ever taken against the acting commander until many many years later,and that came from soldiers who still felt they did not join the french military to be cowards.
I am at a complete loss to understand the timid mentality that says we can not do anything until it is 100% safe.Sure OSH saYS WE MUST BUT IN YEARS AND IN DECADES TO COME there will be those who will keep saying why did we not try.If two could walk out others with full gear could walk in.Sure something could go wrong and timid people will always hind behind that excuse. The something that could have gone right has slipped away now while OSH mentality has run the show.

[Crypto Crude]

well,
I went for a day trip today to Greymouth to catch up with the Rockhouses...
They said there was alot of uproar at the media conference today...
:cool:
.^sc

[the machine]

well,
I went for a day trip today to Greymouth to catch up with the Rockhouses...
They said there was alot of uproar at the media conference today...
:cool:
.^sc

SC, good on you for doing the trip.

The familes need all the support they can get - and more.

M

[Nitaa]

When the ventilation shaft collapsed a portion of the money to get it fixed was recovered from insurance, as will equipment etc IF the mine does continue from this accident. best case scenario it could be up and running again in 3 months at a loss of less than 30 million with the help of small capital raising. worst case mine never reopens and company is tied up court cases until it is bankruptBest case scenario is more than a year (that would be like winning lotto).

[float]

The Accident causation model, aka the 'Swiss cheese model', is used for accident prevention in the Aviation industry.

http://wikiofscience.wikidot.com/science:accident-causation-model

It seems in PRC's instance, there have been holes at the highest level (substandard mining safety regulations).

I'm sure most people that held shares in PRC would have presumed that suitable contingencies we're in place. I was shocked to learn there were no refuge chambers. Or a diesel generator for ventilation.

They need to have a crack at rescuing the miners soon, I think the chance of survival is as great as it was 6 hours after the blast.

Not to have tried is the true failure!!

[Nitaa]

From what I have seen, Peter Whittall has done a tremendous job in the way he has handled this catastrophy. What must be going through his mind every second of the day and is impossible to comprehend but I want to commend him for the way he is handling it. I cannot say the same about Gary Knowles who comes across as saying I..I...I and not we. He appears to want to stamp his mark and I agree with Digger that this rescue mission is a claytons rescue.

The market has hammered NZO and expectedly so and more or less made Pike worthless which sad to say I tend to agree. There is a saying and quite appropriate to Pike. We have money under our feet everywhere we go but can we bend down and pick it up? Just because there is billions worth of coal here doesnt mean that we can get it out for less money than the value of the coal.

Almost impossible for the NZ Government to bail out Pike even in a best case scenario and why should they?

As someone who has experienced a NDE it really puts things into perspective andbrings home to reality of what is important in life. You can always get back your money but you can never get back your time.

[shane_m]

what is this joke? is not like sending a dog to space experiment. why cant some one go in there with a breathing air cylinder?