PRC Pike River Coal

[Kees]

being 170 billion in the red is one good reason to back it specially open cast let alone the employees.kiwirail,lpc etc etc .

[the machine]

From what I have seen, Peter Whittall has done a tremendous job in the way he has handled this catastrophy. What must be going through his mind every second of the day and is impossible to comprehend but I want to commend him for the way he is handling it. I cannot say the same about Gary Knowles who comes across as saying I..I...I and not we. He appears to want to stamp his mark and I agree with Digger that this rescue mission is a claytons rescue.

The market has hammered NZO and expectedly so and more or less made Pike worthless which sad to say I tend to agree. There is a saying and quite appropriate to Pike. We have money under our feet everywhere we go but we can bend down and pick it up? Just because there is billions worth of coal here doesnt mean that we can get it out for less money than the value of the coal.

Almost impossible for the NZ Government to bail out Pike even in a best case scenario and why should they?

As someone who has experienced a NDE it really puts things into perspective andbrings home to reality of what is important in life. You can always get back your money but you can never get back your time.

Peter Whittall is doing a great job.

As regards 3,6,9 months into the future, there will be moves to reopen the mine.

That is after the cause of the explosion is ascertained.
Maybe escavate 50m either side of the fault where tunnel goes through would add a significant degree of safety - a hole 100m in diameter and down to the tunnel level.

Then a range of slimline shafts every 100m or so to the surface. The government need to have the mine up and running again and support the local community.

DEC will lose out here.

M

[Balance]

The corporate world is disgusting. If you have a job as a manager or executive, your job is not to look after your workers and to ensure they have what they need to do their job. Your job is two things:
1/ To keep your boss happy; to insulate him and to ensure that he see's things the way you want him to see things. This is easily done because you control the flow of information to him.
2/ To make the people below you do what your boss wants by any means necessary.
If you can do these 2 things, you will attain money and status.
Ultimately to do the above you must compromise your integrity. You must act in an amoral and dis-honest fashion. You must flatter others & be motivated by avarice, greed & a lust for status. Your motto will be "if it must be someone, it might as well be me". The truly productive and useful people are there to be overseen by you. You are the guy with the whip in the slave galley while the rowers give their all. You are not an entrepreneur. You are not a businessman. You create nothing. You are a cog in a corporate wheel, grinding people under for your own gain.

If you climb to the top of the tree, what a criminal you will be. Is it any wonder that we see such abysmal ethics and treatment of shareholders and workers by our companies. We are convenient sources of cash and labour to the bled. We are the aphids, and they are the ants. Is it any wonder that we see the same criminals and silver spooners wetting their beaks on so many different boards. And always with the same extreme arrogance, callousness & sense of entitlement.

LN, assume you are speaking for yourself?

[arjay]

I am at a complete loss to understand the timid mentality that says we can not do anything until it is 100% safe.Sure OSH saYS WE MUST BUT IN YEARS AND IN DECADES TO COME there will be those who will keep saying why did we not try..

We can understand their caution, considering they would not have let the miners go in until they had determined it to be 100% safe.

[Balance]

We can understand their caution, considering they would not have let the miners go in until they had determined it to be 100% safe.

100% safe?

That says it all about where NZ as a country has become.

What about investment safety? Ok for the government, Securities Commission, Companies Office, SFO etc to let investors lose billions in the finance companies and con-companies (Blue Chip etc) with resulting anguish and suicides from some investors, but perish the thought to send in a volunteer to check on conditions of trapped miners until it's 100% safe?????????????

What a sick joke.

[STRAT]

This is a very emotional thread and I can see why. What I dont understand is how we have managed to suddenly acquire so many mine rescue experts.

I watched all the broadcasts by the CEO and the top cop last Saturday and one thing stood out to me above all others. It was obvious they considered this a recovery even back then. They said as much and it was clear in the body language. The disclaimers at the end where they said it was a rescue only contradicted what was said in previous dialog.

If you were the guy in charge and you were convinced it was a recovery would you risk 16 more lives or even one?


By the way. It has taken me 3 days to pluck up the courage to say that.

[Jay]

Have to agree with you Strat - The video footage says a lot.


Slightly off subject, but what annoys me is that when there is something like this, suddenly there is 10,000 experts on the end of the phone/computer who know what should and can be done.
Not trying to defend the top cop there but as I heard this morning he is guided by experts from around the world on what can and cannot be done, is safe etc. It seems to me he is damned if does and damned if he doesn't send in the "rescue" team

Still there is always hope that 1 or more may have survived, you just never say never until you know for sure.
My thoughts are with the families concerned.

[STRAT]

I have dealt with OSH before and it is clear to me they deal in one eyed ledger..Hi Digger.
I have dealt with the often painful constraints of OSH myself and do on a daily basis. I have found myself saying similar things to you but when I am close to throwing my toys out of the cot I remind myself of a few things. OSH have to operate with one set of rules for all in any given site situation and they must cater to the lowest IQ likely to be on that site. If you have ever been on a major construction site you will know how low that can be.

This post is in response to Diggers comment and not aimed in any way at the Pike situation.

[STRAT]

Have to agree with you Strat - The video footage says a lot.


Slightly off subject, but what annoys me is that when there is something like this, suddenly there is 10,000 experts on the end of the phone/computer who know what should and can be done.
Not trying to defend the top cop there but as I heard this morning he is guided by experts from around the world on what can and cannot be done, is safe etc. It seems to me he is damned if does and damned if he doesn't send in the "rescue" team

Still there is always hope that 1 or more may have survived, you just never say never until you know for sure.
My thoughts are with the families concerned.Thanks Jay. I was expecting to be hung drawn and quartered.

As to the Cop in charge. He has my sympathy and I dont envy him at all. The pressure would be unbareable.

[duncan macgregor]

100% safe?

That says it all about where NZ as a country has become.

What about investment safety? Ok for the government, Securities Commission, Companies Office, SFO etc to let investors lose billions in the finance companies and con-companies (Blue Chip etc) with resulting anguish and suicides from some investors, but perish the thought to send in a volunteer to check on conditions of trapped miners until it's 100% safe?????????????

What a sick joke. Sending someone in would have at least given them a clue to conditions up to the point of cant get any further because of this or that. Not sending someone in is a crime against humanity. Why are the police involved?. The whole rescue is a bigger shambles than the mine its self. They should at least have started an escape hole right at the start for starters. All I can see is every doo gooder getting in on the act why dont they all go home and let the miners take over?. This is the end of the mine for sure nobody in their right mind would work under ground knowing what a great bunch of no hopers was standin by if something went wrong. Macdunk

[Ripeka]

This is a very emotional thread and I can see why. What I dont understand is how we have managed to suddenly aquire so many mine rescue experts.

I watched all the broadcasts by the CEO and the top cop last Saturday and one thing stood out to me above all others. It was obvious they considered this a recovery even back then. They said as much and it was clear in the body language. The disclaimers at the end where they said it was a rescue only contradicted what was said in previous dialog.

If you were the guy in charge and you were convinced it was a recovery would you risk 16 more lives?


By the way. It has taken me 3 days to pluck up the courage to say that.

Thanks Strat. A voice of reason. It also fascinates me how many "mine rescue experts" we now seem to have in this country. They are everywhere lol. Every GENUINE qualified mine rescue expert from all around the world (Canada, USA) + Associate Professors/Professors of Geology at world universities that I have read or heard, seem to be saying the same thing as Mr Knowles about the environment in the mine. And yet, Mr Knowles continues to be ridiculed for his statements that is it isnt safe enough to risk rescuer's lives. I dont think that the general public has ANY real idea of how unsafe the environment is, or how difficult/impossible a rescue might be.

Repeatedly, people praise Peter Whittall (as clearly he is doing a great PR job, much better than the Police) yet Mr Whittall is saying EXACTLY the same thing as Mr Knowles. Its not as though Mr Knowles is saying anything that appears to contradict the stance of mine rescue experts, the CEO of PR etc. He is only acting on the advice he receives collectively from those sources - the experts themselves. Can you imagine the outcry if Mr Knowles had allowed rescuers in and a secondary explosion ensued? All the armchair experts would be saying "what a plonker, fancy going against the mine rescue expert recommendations and recklessly endangering lives, who did he think he was... God??" etc etc...

The genuine mine experts are the only ones in a position to properley weigh up the likelihood of survivors and the benefit of a rescue as opposed to the risk posed to the rescuers. The rest of us need to accept that, regardless of how frustrating that might be.

[STRAT]

I'm about as far from a rescue expert as there is.

The point I am trying to get across is the government of NZ is quite happy to put NZ'ers in harms way all over the place, all over the world.

When an 18 year old signs up for the military, and then the SAS, they know full well that there's a very good chance they will be asked, if not told where and when they will be looking down someone elses gun barrel in hopes of "rescuing" someone who probably doesn't even know where NZ is.

Why cant a mining "rescue" expert decide if he/she chooses to put their own life at serious risk, and look down a gun barrel, to help out someone who knows where NZ is?Hi Yankiwi
First up. My comment wasnt aimed at anyone in particular.
In regard to your question a couple of things spring to mind.

When comparing the Army to a civilian rescue they are two different deals yet the same.

Different because anyone who signs up to be a soldier does so with the knowledge and perhaps intent that they may have to go into a situation where they will kill or be killed.
People who perform rescue dont.

They are the same in that someone must be in charge and call the shots otherwise chaos ensues.

[STRAT]

Sending someone in would have at least given them a clue to conditions up to the point of cant get any further because of this or that. Not sending someone in is a crime against humanity. Why are the police involved?. The whole rescue is a bigger shambles than the mine its self. They should at least have started an escape hole right at the start for starters. All I can see is every doo gooder getting in on the act why dont they all go home and let the miners take over?. This is the end of the mine for sure nobody in their right mind would work under ground knowing what a great bunch of no hopers was standin by if something went wrong. MacdunkGood to see you back Macca. I have missed you.

Now. Put the cover back on the boat and get your arse down there to the West Coast and sort those buggers out. Will ya?

[Balance]

The genuine mine experts are the only ones in a position to properley weigh up the likelihood of survivors and the benefit of a rescue as opposed to the risk posed to the rescuers. The rest of us need to accept that, regardless of how frustrating that might be.

Just like the genuine experts in our army who cannot even get a robot to work because it cannot handle wet conditions????? Wonder what will happen when they actually face some real action on the battlefield - "sorry but our guns don't fire."

One does not need to be a chicken to know how an egg is laid.

Why is a firefighter not in charge but a cop? That's the no 1 question being validly asked by those so contemptuously referred to as armchair 'experts' by some posers on this site. So NZ is now a country where we leave everything to the experts? Like with the finance companies? Where were the experts?

[STRAT]

Why is a firefighter not in charge but a cop? That's the no 1 question being validly asked by those so contemptuously referred to as armchair 'experts' Hi Balance.
Isnt hat a bit like saying "why have we sent an accountant to milk a cow instead of a lawyer?"

[duncan macgregor]

Good to see you back Macca. I have missed you.

Now. Put the cover back on the boat and get your arse down there to the West Coast and sort those buggers out. Will ya? Strat We had a similar ammount of incompetance in the building game with the woiuld be experts designing leaky homes which only cost money. I didnt understand at the start when it cost enormous ammounts of money to even get the power laid on to the site when it would have been cheaper and safer to buy generators. You cant run a power supply overhead through rugged country without power cuts from time to time. That was mistake number one leading up to this accident. I also dont understand why cheap drill holes are not in place in front of the mining to be used as vents as the mine progresses. Then what would I know about anything when its ignorance is bliss takes over common sense has nothing to do with anything. Macdunk

[mouse]

The police are in charge because they can leave the coast. The lack of a rescue attempt will cause trouble between families on the Coast for many years. So we put the policeman in charge. He takes the flack and gets promoted. I cannot see any other way to do it.:mellow:
Next, the rescue. What should have happened, in hindsight, is for Pike to immediately rush into the mine with one of their vehicles and half a dozen miners, grab injured miners and get out. Half an hour maximum window. :mellow:

[STRAT]

Strat We had a similar ammount of incompetance in the building game with the woiuld be experts designing leaky homes which only cost money. I didnt understand at the start when it cost enormous ammounts of money to even get the power laid on to the site when it would have been cheaper and safer to buy generators. You cant run a power supply overhead through rugged country without power cuts from time to time. That was mistake number one leading up to this accident. I also dont understand why cheap drill holes are not in place in front of the mining to be used as vents as the mine progresses. Then what would I know about anything when its ignorance is bliss takes over common sense has nothing to do with anything. MacdunkBut Macca thats a whole other issue.
Why they havent gone down the mine to do the rescue is one issue.
Your comments relate more to why this situation occured in the first place.

Bottom line is unless we are there and fully informed we are only second guessing everything.

[fungus pudding]

The police are in charge because they can leave the coast. The lack of a rescue attempt will cause trouble between families on the Coast for many years. So we put the policeman in charge. He takes the flack and gets promoted. I cannot see any other way to do it.:mellow:
Next, the rescue. What should have happened, in hindsight, is for Pike to immediately rush into the mine with one of their vehicles and half a dozen miners, grab injured miners and get out. Half an hour maximum window. :mellow:

For miners who got out - raised alarm - getting crews there? Half -an hour would challenge Superman. Entering the mine alone - over 2kms, takes a long time. Listen to the experts.

[fabs]

STRAT

From Firefighter to Cost guarders i cannot see any difference to Soldiers, in there aim to save lives at the risk of injury and death to themselves.
As to the fact that the mine has now been worked without objection, in far less than optimum safety ever since they hit the coal and as evidence seems to suggest, why the sudden change of rules.
Shut the gate after the horse has bolted.
But really folks, all that matters now is the 110% wish and hope for the salvage of the afflicted.

[warthog]

If you were the guy in charge and you were convinced it was a recovery would you risk 16 more lives or even one?

The hog has been saying this for a while.

The reason it has been like this is to manage the relatives, friends and colleagues of the miners.

At the live press-conference right now the cop said "recovery .... I mean rescue". One of a many examples.

[STRAT]

STRAT

From Firefighter to Cost guarders i cannot see any difference to Soldiers, in there aim to save lives at the risk of injury and death to themselves.
As to the fact that the mine has now been worked without objection, in far less than optimum safety ever since they hit the coal and as evidence seems to suggest, why the sudden change of rules.
Shut the gate after the horse has bolted.
But really folks, all that matters now is the 110% wish and hope for the salvage of the afflicted.Hi Fabs
I am of the opinion that is more than likely that the Policemen in charge would have been chosen for the job because of his admin skills above all else.
The difference between rescue people and soldiers is too larger topic to get into so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Change of rules? Which rules are we discussing?

I would like nothing more than to hear that these guys come out safe too

[digger]

The police are in charge because they can leave the coast. The lack of a rescue attempt will cause trouble between families on the Coast for many years. So we put the policeman in charge. He takes the flack and gets promoted. I cannot see any other way to do it.:mellow:
Next, the rescue. What should have happened, in hindsight, is for Pike to immediately rush into the mine with one of their vehicles and half a dozen miners, grab injured miners and get out. Half an hour maximum window. :mellow:


Exactally Mouse.
But that did not happen as OSH and other inplace red tape are a block to that sort of immediate rescue.They would have been all dead at the Strongman mine if that to had been left to the rule makers instead of the miners on the ground. For decades to come this clatons rescue will sit as an example of why we can not longer expect help from the experts. The two miners that walked out should not have done so they should have waited until it was 100% safe.

[Balance]

Woefully inadequate is the only description one can make re the situation.

[Beagle]

Woefully inadequate is the only description one can make re the situation.

I think that pretty well sums up PRC and its management ever since the IPO.

[duncan macgregor]

It now seems that the real situation was being withheld for some reason to drip feed tit bits of information out. The blast video for instance and the real reason for not going in. Gas and danger was not a viable excuse why did they just not say the mine is on fire and likely to explode with very little or no chance of survivors instead of all the bull****. I feel very angry that total incompetants can be left in charge, endangering lives, and investors money in this day and age worming and screwing the public as they go. Time for a real shake up starting with this lot. Never had shares in this company to many bad decisions along the way from the start. I feel for the victims. Macdunk

[LJB]

From "Stuff.co.nz"
"LATEST: The possibility that no mine or rescue teams will ever enter the West Coast mine where 29 men remain trapped is being considered by authorities.

Hot air and gas this morning rushed up a bore shaft from the Pike River Coal mine as robots captured new footage, including a miner's helmet with a light still on.

Superintendent Gary Knowles, who is leading the investigation, said a robot had discovered one of the miner's helmets 1000 metres into the mine. That robot had since run out of battery.

A second New Zealand Defence Force robot was still making progress in the mine, where a massive blast trapped the miners on Friday, and had also captured footage.

Asked whether it would ever be safe for rescue workers to enter the mine, where the miners have been trapped for a fifth day, Knowles conceded that "it may never reach that point".

A fire continues to burn inside the mine, and abandoned mines on the West Coast can continue to burn decades after closing to mining." End quote.

PRC mine is kaput me thinks. This is a massive wipeout in value by NZ standards. Not many investments lose all their value so quickly due to one event.
As far as posters lamenting having made the mistake of investing in PRC in the first place, it is hard to apply the concept of learning from ones mistakes to this tragic event. For Pikers who bought and held from the IPO, is the lesson to never buy mining start-ups? Two big Indian coking coal companies assessed the risk and invested. Its hard to work out what lesson to take from this from an investment learning curve point of view. I guess one lesson would be if the share goes ballistic after an IPO like PRC did, get out and stay out and lock in the profit. Please, Logan Ninefingers, not another rant...oops thats like a red rag to the bull!

[CJ]

Do they insure for this type of event? Since they had to do a rights issue for the rock slide a while ago, I assume not.

How much $$ has been sunk into this?

[bull....]

From "Stuff.co.nz"
"LATEST: The possibility that no mine or rescue teams will ever enter the West Coast mine where 29 men remain trapped is being considered by authorities.

Hot air and gas this morning rushed up a bore shaft from the Pike River Coal mine as robots captured new footage, including a miner's helmet with a light still on.

Superintendent Gary Knowles, who is leading the investigation, said a robot had discovered one of the miner's helmets 1000 metres into the mine. That robot had since run out of battery.

A second New Zealand Defence Force robot was still making progress in the mine, where a massive blast trapped the miners on Friday, and had also captured footage.

Asked whether it would ever be safe for rescue workers to enter the mine, where the miners have been trapped for a fifth day, Knowles conceded that "it may never reach that point".

A fire continues to burn inside the mine, and abandoned mines on the West Coast can continue to burn decades after closing to mining." End quote.

PRC mine is kaput me thinks. This is a massive wipeout in value by NZ standards. Not many investments lose all their value so quickly due to one event.
As far as posters lamenting having made the mistake of investing in PRC in the first place, it is hard to apply the concept of learning from ones mistakes to this tragic event. For Pikers who bought and held from the IPO, is the lesson to never buy mining start-ups? Two big Indian coking coal companies assessed the risk and invested. Its hard to work out what lesson to take from this from an investment learning curve point of view. I guess one lesson would be if the share goes ballistic after an IPO like PRC did, get out and stay out and lock in the profit. Please, Logan Ninefingers, not another rant...oops thats like a red rag to the bull!

Looks like the mine is stuffed if you believe this , pike river RIP

[Balance]

Looks like the mine is stuffed if you believe this , pike river RIP

NZO just sank another $12m into PRC?

[bull....]

NZO just sank another $12m into PRC?

Yea and NZO fell 30% yesterday to take account of the potential loss of investment.

[sheepy]

If the mine is on fire, wouldnt the chance of a methane explosion be smaller. Otherwise it would be blowing up everytime the methane levels built up again. Some of the methane might be getting burnt off.

[Balance]

If the mine is on fire, wouldnt the chance of a methane explosion be smaller. Otherwise it would be blowing up everytime the methane levels built up again. Some of the methane might be getting burnt off.

Good thinking!

[Crypto Crude]

Yes mackdunk,
but you still felt obliged to pick this stock at $1.80 (at its peak),
in our heads up picking competition...

When I destroyed you...

you have been hiding ever since...
:eek2:
.^sc

[Doc]

Exactly what i have been saying. History has shown us 5 days with no secondary explosion.
There would be minimal risk in driving an armoured blast proof vehicle up the tunnel and deploying the robot from the abandoned loader. They would have had footage of the pit bottom by now had they done this.
Next they will waste more time when they deploy the australian robot which wont be able to get past the loader because it is too big. But if they drove up to the loader in a blast proof vehicle, then they could move the loader out the way.
Far too much time wasted. It is a disgrace.

And another thing, they could have deployed fibre optic cameras down the ventilation shaft, or up pipes or the conveyor from the mine entrance. Either they are incompetant not to think of these solutions or they already know and are "managing" the release of information (like the video of the explosion from the mouth of the tunnel). Next you will find out there are also cctv in the mine and they haven't released that footage, assuming it was working at the time of the explosion.



If the mine is on fire, wouldnt the chance of a methane explosion be smaller. Otherwise it would be blowing up everytime the methane levels built up again. Some of the methane might be getting burnt off.

[Balance]

Army robot ran out of battery? Did I read that right?

What next? Army run out of bullets and guns jammed because of rain?

[fabs]

Posted on the PRC forum a long 2 days ago.
First thing NZO board, turn of money supply to PRC as a 30% S/H nzo is not responsible to bring mine to prod. now that the co. is bankrupt there is no way they get any of it back.
Cost to restart the mine to production level, probably 150 to 200 mil. Think of all the possible and likley scenarios
TIMELINE:
To restart
Short, 9 -18 mts.
Medium, 2-5yrs.
Long, 5- never.
PRC IS NOT DEAD IN THE WATER , IT IS SUNK.
Time for NZO the cut loss and concentrate fulltime on it,s core activity.
The gamble has not payed off
Irregardless the outcome of the present Tragedy

[Baddarcy]

Do they insure for this type of event? Since they had to do a rights issue for the rock slide a while ago, I assume not.

How much $$ has been sunk into this?

I saw a comment in the NZ Herald today, that mentioned that Pike had past thier "latest insurance inspection" so not really sure what that means to be honest. Hopeing for the best, but would find it a bit surprising if that sort of thing was covered by insurance.

There was also a claim lodged when the vent collapsed but we never heard anything about it being accepted, so i am assuming it wasn't accepted, but i guess it does confirm that the mine does have some sort of cover.

[Baddarcy]

Posted on the PRC forum a long 2 days ago.
First thing NZO board, turn of money supply to PRC as a 30% S/H nzo is not responsible to bring mine to prod. now that the co. is bankrupt there is no way they get any of it back.
Cost to restart the mine to production level, probably 150 to 200 mil. Think of all the possible and likley scenarios
TIMELINE:
To restart
Short, 9 -18 mts.
Medium, 2-5yrs.
Long, 5- never.
PRC IS NOT DEAD IN THE WATER , IT IS SUNK.
Time for NZO the cut loss and concentrate fulltime on it,s core activity.
The gamble has not payed off
Irregardless the outcome of the present Tragedy

Funny NZO has actually done the complete oposite to your post, they have told Pike they can have the remaining $12m as long as the BNZ plays nice over the overdraft.

[Baddarcy]

Army robot ran out of battery? Did I read that right?

What next? Army run out of bullets and guns jammed because of rain?

Yes the first robot that didn't like water, was restarted, went another 500m then ran out of juice.

Also you are assuming our army has guns :-)

[warthog]

It now seems that the real situation was being withheld for some reason to drip feed tit bits of information out.

Where have your glasses been all these years Macdunkle? Media management and manipulation has been around forever. It's just when it is put under the spotlight, as is the case at Pike River, that there are more slips of the tongue than at other times. The politicians, the mine, the media, the company - all jockeying for position to get the most out of it during and following the event.

As always, there will be people there who are motivated by principle, and are there for one reason only: to get the miners out, whatever form that takes.

[fabs]

Baddarcy
know all about the BNZ, cost me the use of close to $100000. in 89 for 5 years as a result of Equity co.going down the gurgle r when they where still owned by NZ after i been a faithful and good customer for some 40 years.
Aussies may show more compassion, lets hope,wait and see.

[geezy]

From "Stuff.co.nz"
"LATEST: The possibility that no mine or rescue teams will ever enter the West Coast mine where 29 men remain trapped is being considered by authorities.

Hot air and gas this morning rushed up a bore shaft from the Pike River Coal mine as robots captured new footage, including a miner's helmet with a light still on.

Superintendent Gary Knowles, who is leading the investigation, said a robot had discovered one of the miner's helmets 1000 metres into the mine. That robot had since run out of battery.

A second New Zealand Defence Force robot was still making progress in the mine, where a massive blast trapped the miners on Friday, and had also captured footage.

Asked whether it would ever be safe for rescue workers to enter the mine, where the miners have been trapped for a fifth day, Knowles conceded that "it may never reach that point".

A fire continues to burn inside the mine, and abandoned mines on the West Coast can continue to burn decades after closing to mining." End quote.

PRC mine is kaput me thinks. This is a massive wipeout in value by NZ standards. Not many investments lose all their value so quickly due to one event.
As far as posters lamenting having made the mistake of investing in PRC in the first place, it is hard to apply the concept of learning from ones mistakes to this tragic event. For Pikers who bought and held from the IPO, is the lesson to never buy mining start-ups? Two big Indian coking coal companies assessed the risk and invested. Its hard to work out what lesson to take from this from an investment learning curve point of view. I guess one lesson would be if the share goes ballistic after an IPO like PRC did, get out and stay out and lock in the profit. Please, Logan Ninefingers, not another rant...oops thats like a red rag to the bull!

Lessons learnt is that the mine should have been an open cast mine IMO

[Logen Ninefingers]

Lessons learnt is that the mine should have been an open cast mine IMO

Yes but no-one had permission to do an open cast mine. It's a redundant argument to say "it should have been an open-cast mine". If I don't have permission to drive a tank on the open-road, I don't do it. End of story. So if underground mining couldn't be done safely, it should not have been done. PRC didn't own the coal IMHO - they obtained permission to go in and get something that belonged to all NZers. Once they had the advice from the geologists who warned of the extremely gasseous nature of underground mines that intersect faults, common sense should have prevailed. They didn't have a divine right to get this resource. Instead, greed took over and GW got paid $500,000 a year to preside over an appalling mess.

What the general public don't understand yet is that this wasn't a fully operating coal mine like they seem to think it is. What we have followed this thread know is that this is a mine that had only just began to ramp up it's production, and it blew to high heaven. So this mine was a death trap, a disaster, a fiasco, an ill-conceived crematorium.

In my opinion, Pike River Coal has brought the whole mining industry in NZ into disrepute. Solid Energy has done a very good job with mining in NZ and some private cowboys came along with an 'anyone can do it' attitude and have instead created the biggest balls-up imaginable. 29 missing miners and hundreds of millions of dollars down the drain, 2 companies basically brought to their knees & a country in mourning.

[Balance]

Yes but no-one had permission to do an open cast mine. It's a redundant argument to say "it should have been an open-cast mine". If I don't have permission to drive a tank on the open-road, I don't do it. End of story. So if underground mining couldn't be done safely, it should not have been done. PRC didn't own the coal IMHO - they obtained permission to go in and get something that belonged to all NZers. Once they had the advice from the geologists who warned of the extremely gasseous nature of underground mines that intersect faults, common sense should have prevailed. They didn't have a divine right to get this resource. Instead, greed took over and GW got paid $500,000 a year to preside over an appalling mess.

What the general public don't understand yet is that this wasn't a fully operating coal mine like they seem to think it is. What we have followed this thread know is that this is a mine that had only just began to ramp up it's production, and it blew to high heaven. So this mine was a death trap, a disaster, a fiasco, an ill-conceived crematorium.

In my opinion, Pike River Coal has brought the whole mining industry in NZ into disrepute. Solid Energy has done a very good job with mining in NZ and some private cowboys came along with an 'anyone can do it' attitude and have instead created the biggest balls-up imaginable. 29 missing miners and hundreds of millions of dollars down the drain, 2 companies basically brought to their knees & a country in mourning.

Relax. LN. Take a deep breath and chill out.

NZO is not brought to its knees - it still sits on cash. It will survive.

What is lost is nothing compared to the billions lost via the finance companies and property company collapses.

Diehard Pikers had a dream and the dream has died - learn and move on.

The army needs to upgrade their robots?

[digger]

Lessons learnt is that the mine should have been an open cast mine IMO

Yes that is the only way. After this current mess is resolved a bit we should push for that.{It will never to solved completely that will take decades]Doc under Helen Clark has received a lot od extra acres so would not hurt to give up some for the life of an open cast mine. This would give NZ and income of 60 million tonnes of premium coal and we sure need it. Plus whatever is below this seam as yet not quantified. Regretable their is a disconnect in NZ about earning money and the welfare cheques. Too many people just believe we can invent money without having something to sell. This is where John Keys should step forward and exlpain that we either earn money or we just get well used to being poor,and then poorer. But enought for now but later on i want to start geting important heads together to push for open case mining.

[bull....]

Yep NZers have lost a lot of money last few years

[geezy]

Yes but no-one had permission to do an open cast mine. It's a redundant argument to say "it should have been an open-cast mine". If I don't have permission to drive a tank on the open-road, I don't do it. End of story. So if underground mining couldn't be done safely, it should not have been done. PRC didn't own the coal IMHO - they obtained permission to go in and get something that belonged to all NZers. Once they had the advice from the geologists who warned of the extremely gasseous nature of underground mines that intersect faults, common sense should have prevailed. They didn't have a divine right to get this resource. Instead, greed took over and GW got paid $500,000 a year to preside over an appalling mess.

What the general public don't understand yet is that this wasn't a fully operating coal mine like they seem to think it is. What we have followed this thread know is that this is a mine that had only just began to ramp up it's production, and it blew to high heaven. So this mine was a death trap, a disaster, a fiasco, an ill-conceived crematorium.

In my opinion, Pike River Coal has brought the whole mining industry in NZ into disrepute. Solid Energy has done a very good job with mining in NZ and some private cowboys came along with an 'anyone can do it' attitude and have instead created the biggest balls-up imaginable. 29 missing miners and hundreds of millions of dollars down the drain, 2 companies basically brought to their knees & a country in mourning.

MR 9, i mentioned that, open cast mine is a lesson learnt, i m very aware that it is not permissible, so the govt should look into allowing that. :) We are all angry and frustrated.

[geezy]

Yes that is the only way. After this current mess is resolved a bit we should push for that.{It will never to solved completely that will take decades]Doc under Helen Clark has received a lot od extra acres so would not hurt to give up some for the life of an open cast mine. This would give NZ and income of 60 million tonnes of premium coal and we sure need it. Plus whatever is below this seam as yet not quantified. Regretable their is a disconnect in NZ about earning money and the welfare cheques. Too many people just believe we can invent money without having something to sell. This is where John Keys should step forward and exlpain that we either earn money or we just get well used to being poor,and then poorer. But enought for now but later on i want to start geting important heads together to push for open case mining.

Well said Digger,this sums up alot of what i m trying to say. this is clearly on a political level and its gonna alot of initiative and understanding from our leaders and the community as a whole. Are NZ-ers ready for this or would they like to see more of their own/love ones leave to oz land for greener pastures or even end up a state of .. u know where.

[warthog]

"Minister of Police applauds NZ journalists for not asking hard questions"

Minister slams mine conference antics
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/mining/news/article.cfm?c_id=64&objectid=10689817

What the hell is going on?

Are people not allowed to ask questions these days? It appears not.

The hog saw something about an Aussie journalist needing to watch himself in any west coast pub tonight (or any other night, the hog assumes).

What has this come to? We have reports of the minister of police applauding NZ journalists for not asking hard questions. WTF?

That's one of the big differences between here and Aussie. Here, it is cow-tow to all and sundry, and anybody with a different opinion gets jumped on like a tonne of bricks. Even to the point of violence.

Well, this shows the real kiwi character. Fragile. Low in confidence. Unsure. Looking for leadership, but hating to be questioned by anyone, least of all an Australian.

What a pathetic attitude.

At least the Aussies ask the hard questions, and are happy to disagree with each other (argue even; goodness!). That's a huge strength of their character, and something that's sorely lacking in the kiwi mentality.

The people at the mine are mindful of the high chance that survivors equals zero. Yes, zero. It's the hog's view, also. That doesn't mean no further efforts. But it does mean the big picture is different from one where a quake or collapse has been the event. The lamp still going after almost a week is amazing. That shows that one shouldn't give up, if anything does.

But who can blame Knowles and Whittall for not wanting to put people's lives in danger? Not the hog.

As for journalists asking hard questions; well, the hog asks, if they don't, then who the hell will? No kiwi "journalist", that's for sure.

So what if somebody asks a question that is tactless, or in a rude or even offensive way?

It's a chance to show your mettle. Stand steady, think clearly, answer the question, ask if the answer is acceptable, and move on.

That's what Gary Knowles did during the press conference, and all credit to him. He could have lost his rag (as many others did, including the minister of police it seems - but why? hmmm). But no, he kept his composure, answered the question (very thoughtfully, the hog thought) and had more in store if needed.

That's mettle.

To everybody who's taking offense at the Australian journalist's questions/remarks, the hog suggests you GROW UP. Part of being an adult is learning to deal with differences in opinion and perspective, and if you can't, then YOU have the problem.

What a load of old jellyfish. Bah!

Hog's thoughts are with the miners' families and all those involved.

Let Knowles and Whittall get on with their job.

UPDATE 241110@1650: Second large explosion at mine being reported. If this is true, it suggests the approach to date has been a good one.

[evilroyrule]

i see with sadness it has exploded again. RIP

[bull....]

all 29 dead according to reuters sad day RIP

Guess they will close the mine?

[CJ]

The army needs to upgrade their robots?No. The NZ mining industry should have their own robots suited to the task or in the least, an agree with Australian miners so have immediate access (if one was based near Perth or any city that has direct flights to NZ, it could have been at the mine within 24 hours).

The fact the army have tried their best with equipment not designed for it should be commended.

[minimoke]

Perhaps now we can return our thoughts to the families on the coast. They opened their homes and hearts to cantabrians after the quake. It is now time for us to unselfishly return their generosity by respecting the grief they are now going to go through.

[bull....]

the calls are out already for an enquiry , probably need half a dozen I reckon.

[Robomo]

I've been watching the TV1 news coverage for the past couple of hours. Very sad. The events certainly justify the caution of the past few days about sending rescuers in.
I am very impressed with Peter Whittall, he has handled this disaster admirably and I think has been clear and concise and has delivered information in an dispassionate manner. That's not to say that he does not feel very real sympathy and empathy for the miners and their families.
I talked to him for about 10 minutes after the AGM last week and found him the same then, completely different circumstances of course but he was quite concise about the direction of the company and the problems that existed. I was impressed then, as were others I talked to afterwards, and that has been confirmed by the events of the past few days.
I've got a lot of PRC shares, which obviously will just about lose all their value now, but funnily enough it all seems somewhat secondary compared to the loss of life that others have suffered.

[Baddarcy]

all 29 dead according to reuters sad day RIP

Guess they will close the mine?

Strongman stayed open after the incident in the 60s, didn't close until 2003 i think in the end. They are tough nuts down that way.

[bull....]

Strongman stayed open after the incident in the 60s, didn't close until 2003 i think in the end. They are tough nuts down that way.

Possibly once all the enquiries and mine inspections done they can salvage it with a cash injection from NZO and S/H , dont want some overseas company pick it up on the cheap like ive seen happen before that would be an insult to nz

[rugila]

I am very impressed with Peter Whittall, he has handled this disaster admirably ... Yes, his handling of what has happened has been very good.

But. 29 lives have been lost. Who was in overall charge to do their best to ensure this sort of tragedy didn't happen? John Key and his "surgical mining"? With whom does the buck stop in this case??

[shasta]

Yes, his handling of what has happened has been very good.

But. 29 lives have been lost. Who was in overall charge to do their best to ensure this sort of tragedy didn't happen? John Key and his "surgical mining"? With whom does the buck stop in this case??

The Police local area commander was in charge

[blockhead]

I don't hear McDuff and Balance squawking so loudly about who should have been down the mine doing a rescue any longer. They were fools for suggesting it all along.

Great sadness for all concerned.

[mouse]

all 29 dead according to reuters sad day RIP

Guess they will close the mine?

I do not see any reason to close the mine. It depends upon the Coast. Do they want it reopened? They should be asked. If they want it to continue then we should be prepared to put some cash in. Or the Government should in exchange for shares. I envisage Govt underwriting the new capital requirement.

I was over there on Monday the 15th at the AGM. I am sure I spoke to some of the miners who have now perished. I am pretty upset. I am only a shareholder, but I am not bothered in the least about the cash. I felt I was part of the mission to get mining expansion on the coast. All that I have lost is a few dollars. The miners have lost everything. A disaster.

[blockhead]

Same feelings Mouse, I am 10's of thousands down the drain but in reality feel I have lost nothing, I can still go fishing next week if I want, none of those fellows can.

[clips]

Likewise very impressed with Peter Whittall, damn shame his profile has risen for all the wrong reasons.....

[Balance]

I don't hear McDuff and Balance squawking so loudly about who should have been down the mine doing a rescue any longer. They were fools for suggesting it all along.

Great sadness for all concerned.

No point me saying anything - if you watch TV, you will see West Coasters demanding answers as to why rescuers did not move into the mine on Friday or Saturday before the gas built up again. Best time for going in is after a blast according old timers, said the mayor. They waited 5 days and without ventilation, the gas built up again in the mine and .....

Also, from Australian reporting (no holding back on the hard news) - http://www.smh.com.au/world/miners-families-react-with-fury-20101124-186zt.html

Maybe a few could have been saved if the rescuers move in quickly after the first blast with gas masks and protective uniforms (read firefighters) - now we will never know.

RIP. Let's hope they did not die in vain.

[Oiler]

No point me saying anything - if you watch TV, you will see West Coasters demanding answers as to why rescuers did not move into the mine on Friday or Saturday before the gas built up again. Best time for going in is after a blast according old timers, said the mayor. They waited 5 days and without ventilation, the gas built up again in the mine and .....

Maybe a few could have been saved - now we will never know.

RIP. Let's hope they did not die in vain.

Balance these guys didnt die in vain.

You dont risk lives in a potentially dangerous situation to save lives that may or may not be saved. It maybe hard for many people to understand this but I can speak from experience (not in a coal mine) I saw three people die as a result of H2S gas in a wellhead cellar because one guy went down and then two of his co workers went to get him and they died.

Now is not the time to hypothesizing, recreating and coming to conclusions as to what went wrong.

[mouse]

Look at the video of the mine entrance with the material hanging down. The blast occurs and the material points out of the mine. Stays like that for 90? seconds. Then changes direction and points into the mine and after a few seconds becomes limp again.
MY OPINION. I MAY BE RIGHT. The blast used up all or most of the explosive gases in the mine. Remember this is a very small mine so the blast would have penetrated all parts of the mine. There was then a vacuum and fresh air rushed into the mine. The atmosphere would of course have been pretty bad I suspect, but it was probably breathable. At that time, and maybe for half an hour afterwards, and it could have been for longer than half an hour, the mine could have been entered and a rescue attempted. Delay was the problem.
Note this is a comment based upon the video, not on any experience of mine. But delay is always fatal. Once logic takes over, you have lost the ability to act.

[shane_m]

this could have been prevented if proper safety precautions were there....

I hope all the directors including ratford spend time in jail for this disaster and the mine to be closed for ever.

[digger]

No point me saying anything - if you watch TV, you will see West Coasters demanding answers as to why rescuers did not move into the mine on Friday or Saturday before the gas built up again. Best time for going in is after a blast according old timers, said the mayor. They waited 5 days and without ventilation, the gas built up again in the mine and .....

Also, from Australian reporting (no holding back on the hard news) - http://www.smh.com.au/world/miners-families-react-with-fury-20101124-186zt.html

Maybe a few could have been saved if the rescuers move in quickly after the first blast with gas masks and protective uniforms (read firefighters) - now we will never know.

RIP. Let's hope they did not die in vain.

Absolutly agree 100% Balance. The action should have been within the first hours just as old miner said. Too much leaving things to experts and that is what will happen.
For now we must all turn to the families and their eternal loss.
Within the next few days the hard decision must be made to close PIKE as an underground mine.It,s only hope of a new life will be as open cast but that must be left well into the future and be up to the people on the coast.

[Paint it Black]

Absolutly agree 100% Balance. The action should have been within the first hours just as old miner said. Too much leaving things to experts and that is what will happen.
For now we must all turn to the families and their eternal loss.
Within the next few days the hard decision must be made to close PIKE as an underground mine.It,s only hope of a new life will be as open cast but that must be left well into the future and be up to the people on the coast.

Agree with Balance and Digger the delay potentially was a big factor and I really hope the second explosion after 5 days gas build up is not used as a justification for not reacting more quickly. I hope these 29 guy's legacy will be a state of the art mine with the necessary safeguards which will protect miners for many years to come. For starters I suggest a robot should be permanently stationed at the mine for immediate reconnaissance work to check injuries and gas levels. The mine design needs to be organised to permit the robot access into the working faces - regular practice drills are needed and a back up within 24 hours.

[whatsup]

geologist has advice for pike river coal investors
by alan wood - the press | tuesday, 29 may 2007

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advertisementa west coast geologist is warning mum-and-dad investors not to get excited about the pike river coal (prc) share float, given the mine's potential for production delays.


Murry cave, a geologist with western exploration, said mining investments on the west coast were generally risky, as experienced by state-owned coalminer solid energy.

However, prc was an exciting new venture with a highly experienced management team, as well as good partners in terms of financial backing, cave said yesterday.

"they've got a fairly professional team. I hope they get it all up and running, but i just think it's a bit of a big ask," he said.

"(one risk) is to do with over-ambitious mining targets ... Nobody in new zealand has yet managed to mine in underground the type of tonnages of coal pike river is anticipating," he said.

Investors should pause and consider the overall situation carefully before participating in the upcoming prc float. But people with knowledge of the risk could "go for it".

Prc has already had several delays to a planned initial public offering (ipo) of shares. Its executive team has registered a prospectus, and has a listing timetable that aims to have shares trading from july 20.

Cave said some of the geological risks included:

A 2km-plus drive through hard rock "which is already proving to be slower going than anticipated".

The presence of an active fault that needed to be crossed underground, presenting a zone of considerable and sustained ground stresses.

A pit bottom with deep highly gassy coals and the associated risk of "outburst". Gas pressure-forced explosive events at the coal face.

A degree of uncertainty about the difficulties in accessing the resource because of the geological structure, plus the risk of environmental damage from subsidence and "acid mine drainage".

These risks did not necessarily mean the mine would not be a success, he said.

From 2000-04 cave was an adviser on the pike river mine to land owner the department of conservation as part of resource consent and access issues.

Prc chairman john dow said as a trained geologist he disagreed with some of cave's assumptions, notably that there was an active fault through the mine. The fault was not active, and in very old rock, he said.

Dow said pike river was a different proposition from some of solid energy's mines on the west coast. It was shallower and without some of the other potential problems like "outburst" that cave had presented.

"the concerns he has are generic concerns ... He's abstracted circumstances from other operations and used them as they'd be directly relevant to pike, but the reality is they aren't directly relevant to pike," dow said. "the tunnel that we are drilling at the moment up to the coal seam is in hard rock, but we all know it is in hard rock ... We've budgeted and the timing is based on that knowledge."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4076117a6430.html


sad, but now too true !!!!

[rugila]

The Police local area commander was in chargeI guess you don't mean that the local police commander was in charge of monitoring/ensuring that methane levels in the shaft never reached dangerous levels.

Someone failed to ascertain the reasonable possibility of this danger that so often exists with mining.

The local police commander seemed to do his best trying to minimize the disaster caused by apparent prior negligence elsewhere.

So, who was in charge of ensuring safety before the disaster? That's where the buck should stop.

It seems to me that too many NZ enquiries in the past have been exercises in whitewash. I only hope we don't get another.

[whatsup]

letter to editor - greymouth evening star

dear sir

in yesterday’s mail box (22/5/07) dr murry cave, under the guise of giving “advice” to potential investors in the pike river coal share float, made a number of inaccurate, inappropriate and ill informed statements. Dr cave drew parallels between pike river and a number of other mines operating in different areas, in different seams, at different depths and by different companies that bear little relevance to the pike river mine development.

Pike river will extract coal from the brunner seam. The seam has approximately 6.5 kilometre of outcrop along the escarpment in the paparoa ranges and the pit bottom will be at a depth of 80 to 100 metres with the majority of the mine is at a depth less than 200 metres. Dr cave’s references to mt davy, operating in a very deep, low permeability, outburst prone seam and the tragic deaths at that mine are extremely inappropriate. Similarly dr cave’s vague references to the production life of strongman 2, is as irrelevant as comparison to any other mine in nz or overseas as the particular mining parameters and extent of mining area and resource are different.

Finally, dr cave’s description and assessment of conditions underground at pike river, and in particular the pit bottom area, are inaccurate and ill informed. I am not aware of dr cave’s definition of an “active fault” or why it is applied here, and his description of deep, highly gassy coals and associated risk of outburst bears no relationship with the shallow, moderately gassy, non-outburst prone conditions at pike river.

Pike river registered its prospectus on 22 may 2007 in both new zealand and australia. The prospectus sets out the benefits and risks associated with the mine development as well as reports from independent experts far better acquainted with the pike river development than dr cave. Dr cave is correct in one aspect however. That potential investors in any company need to consider all factors relevant to that investment decision.

Peter whittall

general manager, mines

pike river coal limited


reply for someone who knows

[shasta]

Balance these guys didnt die in vain.

You dont risk lives in a potentially dangerous situation to save lives that may or may not be saved. It maybe hard for many people to understand this but I can speak from experience (not in a coal mine) I saw three people die as a result of H2S gas in a wellhead cellar because one guy went down and then two of his co workers went to get him and they died.

Now is not the time to hypothesizing, recreating and coming to conclusions as to what went wrong.

Exactly, there will be plenty of time for all the inquires, the talkback callers with hindsight knowledge etc

Now is not the time for the "i know best" rubbish, we don't know what happened yet

[warthog]

... maybe for half an hour afterwards, and it could have been for longer than half an hour, the mine could have been entered and a rescue attempted. Delay was the problem.


Nice thought, mouse (and worth posting, so thanks), but that's too simplistic.

Trouble is, what is the nature of the mine after the first explosion? That is the key question, and one there was initially no information to provide an adequate answer to.

If there is a rapid build-up of methane, the indications are for significant - and increasing - risk to anybody entering the mine.

If there is a fast return to the relative levels of gas before the explosion, the indication is for rapid entry.

If there is little or no indication as to where the relative levels are going, one has to make a call to further reduce risk to rescue personnel by waiting and testing until there is a solid trend in the right direction, or accept the risk and enter. This was the situation at Pike River, and the decision was made to wait for more data whilst trying to improve the quality of data (drilling for another sample site). This decision would have been made also given what was known about the size, nature and location of the initial explosion.

And we now know that in hindsight, this would appear to have been the best decision.

The hog notes the application of technical analysis to the situation. Parallels are clear.

[shasta]

I guess you don't mean that the local police commander was in charge of monitoring/ensuring that methane levels in the shaft never reached dangerous levels.

Someone failed to ascertain the reasonable possibility of this danger that so often exists with mining.

The local police commander seemed to do his best trying to minimize the disaster caused by apparent prior negligence elsewhere.

So, who was in charge of ensuring safety before the disaster? That's where the buck should stop.

It seems to me that too many NZ enquiries in the past have been exercises in whitewash. I only hope we don't get another.

Plenty of time later on for the inevitable "witch hunt" looking for blame.

Who was in charge, well the shift supervisor saw the mine was fit for his son to go in after him.

Peter Whittall is ultimately in charge of Pike River Ltd & its employees etc

The local area police commander was in charge of the rescue mission

Probably best we wait until the FACTS are known before speculating who is/was at fault on a public forum!

[root]

I have worked in Hazardous Areas professionally and remain involved in the design and implementation of fixed gas detection systems. However I have little experience underground so have not offered any comments, I find it hard to believe all the posts on this thread are born out of experience or professional training in these areas.

On today of all days it's a good opportunity to pay respect to the families of the Pike River miners and the miners who'll be working underground somewhere tomorrow. There will be plenty of time for accusations and recriminations another day.

[fish]

this could have been prevented if proper safety precautions were there....

I hope all the directors including ratford spend time in jail for this disaster and the mine to be closed for ever.

Sounds Like you could become a member of a lynch mob .
It is not the time to make judgements
Peter Whittall was the mine manager and I believe he would have always acted with safety in mind .He is human and was acting with a number of constraints-not the least being DOC whom i understand wouldnt even let a track be built up to the ventilation shaft . With hindsight numerous ventilation shafts and extractor fans were needed but would DOC approve ?
I suspect ventilation broke down-?power cut then methane reached explosive concentrations and a spark ignited the gas in an enclosed space and a massive explosion ensued .
An enquiry will determine if safety was inadequate and will probable find a number of faults.
It is the time for our thoughts and sympathies to be with the bereaved .

[Huang Chung]

Look at the video of the mine entrance with the material hanging down. The blast occurs and the material points out of the mine. Stays like that for 90? seconds. Then changes direction and points into the mine and after a few seconds becomes limp again.
MY OPINION. I MAY BE RIGHT. The blast used up all or most of the explosive gases in the mine. Remember this is a very small mine so the blast would have penetrated all parts of the mine. There was then a vacuum and fresh air rushed into the mine. The atmosphere would of course have been pretty bad I suspect, but it was probably breathable. At that time, and maybe for half an hour afterwards, and it could have been for longer than half an hour, the mine could have been entered and a rescue attempted. Delay was the problem.
Note this is a comment based upon the video, not on any experience of mine. But delay is always fatal. Once logic takes over, you have lost the ability to act.

Maybe, but you have to remember that there could have been explosive coal dust in the mine after the first blast. As well, nobody would have known how stable the shafts and drives were, or if fires were burning. Visibility would have been nil you'd expect, with all the dust and debris in the air from the blast. A very difficult situation for any potential rescuer.

[friedegg]

wheres gordan ward in all this?i sure hope hes down there offering his support to his former collegues,although no mention or sign of him in the memorial goings on,i sure as hell hope im wrong

[minimoke]

Exactly, there will be plenty of time for all the inquires, the talkback callers with hindsight knowledge etc

Now is not the time for the "i know best" rubbish, we don't know what happened yet Perhaps it is timely to remind the ill informed and couch side experts of Cave Creek. The coast has had more than its fair share or tragedy recently. The Commissions of Inquiry in the end found the causes of that platform failure tragedy. Speculate as you like but the truth will be found. In the meantime, the miners and their families should be at the front of your minds. That it isn't, is pretty telling and a sad indictment on some.

[Balance]

Perhaps it is timely to remind the ill informed and couch side experts of Cave Creek. The coast has had more than its fair share or tragedy recently. The Commissions of Inquiry in the end found the causes of that platform failure tragedy. Speculate as you like but the truth will be found. In the meantime, the miners and their families should be at the front of your minds. That it isn't, is pretty telling and a sad indictment on some.

Hypocrisy on a grand scale rules on this site.

Just look at the postings, even from day 1.

[Baddarcy]

Nothing on ASB Securities, but i heard the NZO was back in a trading halt pending a material announcement on Pike.

So i guess we find out one way or the other in the near future.

[warthog]

, the miners and their families should be at the front of your minds. That it isn't, is pretty telling and a sad indictment on some.

Here we go. It's the you-must-think-what-you're-told brigade. What a load of sanctimonious bollocks. Spare us the sermon, Minimoke. This is exactly what politicians say after such disasters to gain the maximum political capital from the situation. It's all in Populism 101.

Anybody here who has empathy in the slightest will of course be mindful of those who suffer. That doesn't mean that somehow other discussions are off the agenda. Even Macduffy is absolutely welcome to argue the "light brigade should have charged in on Friday after the pub" position.

What about the 1300 dead in Haiti (some tends of thousands at risk). And the 300 who died during a festival in Cambodia? And that's just over the last few weeks.

Meh!

[blockhead]

Balance I do not think "hypocrisy on a grand scale rules on this site"

I believe all posters are genuinely concerned about what has gone on.

As a shareholder in PRC and NZO I feel partly responsible for what has happened, the mine would never have been started without the financial input from the shareholders, why did I invest in it ?? I hoped to make a dollar, I don't think that makes me a hypocrite.

As a person who has owned a business on the West Coast I have a small understanding of how things work over there, it was my hope PRC would provide employment for Coasters and increase my net worth.

I would like to think Pike is not yet finished but obviously it is too early to be discussing that just yet.

[minimoke]

Here we go. It's the you-must-think-what-you're-told brigade. What a load of sanctimonious bollocks.

You are of course correct - it is not for me to suggest what individuals should think. For that I retract and apologize. The rest stands.

[h2so4]

You are of course correct - it is not for me to suggest what individuals should think. For that I retract and apologize. The rest stands.

Who cares? Say what you think, as individuals we can take it or leave it. Different thoughts is one thing I love about ST.

[bull....]

NZO STATEMENT

The secured creditors of Pike River Coal Ltd have agreed to a stand-still
period of 90 days.

After this period I guess they will try to wind it up?

[Baddarcy]

NZO STATEMENT

The secured creditors of Pike River Coal Ltd have agreed to a stand-still
period of 90 days.

After this period I guess they will try to wind it up?

Hard to say right now, in the end it will come down to money, it always does. Depends on whether the shareholders or a new investor is willing to stump up the cash. I suspect the coasters will want the mine to continue, just like strongman did last time this happened.

[warthog]

You are of course correct - it is not for me to suggest what individuals should think. For that I retract and apologize. The rest stands.

Few here would be minded to post such a followup, Minimoke. Admirable (your action, regardless of the facts).

Regarding inquiries, some of us are old enough to remember/know that a commission of inquiry is a hit-and-miss process. Some are done well. Others are politically-motivated (whether the result, or just for the glory). Others are just carried out by idiots. Then there was Peter Mahon, who did his job too well (actually uncovered the truth) according to Muldoon and friends, and died of pneumonia after being shunned by those with influence and wealth. Shame on them to this day (you know who you are).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Mahon_(lawyer)

So whether the truth will actually be known is up for debate.

[bull....]

Hard to say right now, in the end it will come down to money, it always does. Depends on whether the shareholders or a new investor is willing to stump up the cash. I suspect the coasters will want the mine to continue, just like strongman did last time this happened.

A heavily discounted rights issue would probably be attractive to new investors and also be welcomed by exsisting S/H as would ensure they still had an investment instead of lose it all.
In time once the enquiries mine assessments done lets hope this is the outcome.

[warthog]

Even Macduffy is absolutely welcome to argue the "light brigade should have charged in on Friday after the pub" position.

Clarification: this is not a quote of something macduffy wrote, and should have read: Even Macdunk is absolutely welcome to argue the light-brigade-should-have-charged-in-on-Friday-after-the-pub (no quotation marks) position.

For the avoidance of doubt, the hog means that all opinions are valid for discussion, even if current events cause them to appear inconsistent with reality.

Note: macduffy is not Macdunk!

The hog apologies for any confusion!

[h2so4]

Clarification: this is not a quote of something macduffy wrote, and should have read: Even Macdunk is absolutely welcome to argue the light-brigade-should-have-charged-in-on-Friday-after-the-pub (no quotation marks) position.

For the avoidance of doubt, the hog means that all opinions are valid for discussion, even if current events cause them to appear inconsistent with reality.

Note: macduffy is not Macdunk!

The hog apologies for any confusion!

Ah good. Everything makes sense again.:)

[fabs]

Lets give the Folks affected a break.

As to give the W/C and its people a future, lets move quickly and get approval to take the virtual risk free opencast
method, by channeling some minute part of the National Super Fund BILLIONS which are hemorrhaging out of the country at a steady rate to gamble in international markets and do something that is of real benefit for all NZ rs.
BTW. I am not a socialist.

[Baddarcy]

Comment from the Chairman today that caught my eye....
-----------------------------------------
Dow said the goal was now to make the mine safe to bring the bodies out.
An army of people were available to help the families, with every family having a support person to help with their needs.
It was not the end of Pike River Coal, he said.
"There is a future. We're not quite sure what that future looks like. But it is too early to talk about the details yet. We are absolutely focussed on families and we will be talking about the business issues in coming days," he told TVNZ.
-----------------------------------

[LJB]

Perhaps it is timely to remind the ill informed and couch side experts of Cave Creek. The coast has had more than its fair share or tragedy recently. The Commissions of Inquiry in the end found the causes of that platform failure tragedy. Speculate as you like but the truth will be found. In the meantime, the miners and their families should be at the front of your minds. That it isn't, is pretty telling and a sad indictment on some.
With repect, this is an investment forum. Discussion of investment issues does not mean a lack of sympathy or respect, nor is it a sad indictment. This site is merely a medium through which to discuss investment issues of common interest - no more, no less.

[LJB]

On the issue of getting onto the mine to recover the bodies of the miners.
If there is a fire, be it coal or another fuel, the combustion requires oxygen. I know nothing about how mine fires are put out, but presumably due to insufficient oxygen for complete combustion, carbon monoxide will be the primary combustion product. If that is true, would it be correct in thinking that the source of CO must be extinguished before it becomes a safe environment for men to enter. If men cannot enter, then no mechanical fire fighting can take place. That must leave only one option (I'm guessing), that all the vents to the mine would need sealing for enough time for the fire to be extinguished. Can anybody clarify on how mines are made safe when there is a fire smouldering below.

[RenHoek]

Dow said ... "There is a future. We're not quite sure what that future looks like. But it is too early to talk about the details yet. We are absolutely focussed on families and we will be talking about the business issues in coming days...

I think PRC as a company is over. But it still owns the rights to the coal seam right?
Thats quite an asset. Maybe PRC can relaim some losses by selling the rights to a new company.

This tragedy may well push forward the possiblity of open cast mining in the area too...

[upside_umop]

For some of you who are interested in PRC's future here an article with some analyst views. Even they are paying their respects by not asking questions. I would say that NZOG will end up with it again but that is just pure speculation.

http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aF6RjkRVhEk4&pos=6

I'm so gutted for everyone involved. I had a friend who was due start the next shift, and have been a past shareholder. There is just so many people affected by this. I totally agree with Oiler...there is no room for speculators on what could have been done (although naturally in our heads we always to think of scenarios).

[darksentinel]

On the issue of getting onto the mine to recover the bodies of the miners.
If there is a fire, be it coal or another fuel, the combustion requires oxygen. I know nothing about how mine fires are put out, but presumably due to insufficient oxygen for complete combustion, carbon monoxide will be the primary combustion product. If that is true, would it be correct in thinking that the source of CO must be extinguished before it becomes a safe environment for men to enter. If men cannot enter, then no mechanical fire fighting can take place. That must leave only one option (I'm guessing), that all the vents to the mine would need sealing for enough time for the fire to be extinguished. Can anybody clarify on how mines are made safe when there is a fire smouldering below.

The only approach (according to the mining expert consulted during early coverage last week) is, as you say, to seal all vents and starve the fire of oxygen. A smouldering coal seam is problematic to extinguish using other means.

[LJB]

On the issue of open cast mining.
Most open cast mines are on easy country; not too deep with soft overlying rock.
I think that the rugged country around Pike River would be totally unsuitable for open cast mining even if the nation was willing to allow the significant environmental damage to a relatively recently designated Paparoa National Park.

[winner69]

Have to love those analyst recommendations ...... PRC from outperform to neutral ..... but then then its based on the futyre and when it starts trading again neutral might be right .... even if they think current equity might be worthless

Drom that bloomberg.com linked above

“Given the high level of uncertainty regarding the nature of the incident, it is impractical to usefully discuss its potential value implications,” Macquarie Group said in a note, cutting its recommendation to neutral from outperform. “However, it must be highlighted that a possible result is the current equity of Pike River Coal could become worthless.”

[bull....]

Have to love those analyst recommendations ...... PRC from outperform to neutral ..... but then then its based on the futyre and when it starts trading again neutral might be right .... even if they think current equity might be worthless

Drom that bloomberg.com linked above

“Given the high level of uncertainty regarding the nature of the incident, it is impractical to usefully discuss its potential value implications,” Macquarie Group said in a note, cutting its recommendation to neutral from outperform. “However, it must be highlighted that a possible result is the current equity of Pike River Coal could become worthless.”

Thats why a substantial cash rights issue might create some value for exsisting S/H enabling them to oneday get their money back.
I see the board is going to meet tomorrow.

[mouse]

Thats why a substantial cash rights issue might create some value for exsisting S/H enabling them to oneday get their money back.
I see the board is going to meet tomorrow.

I am now speculating. It seems to me that one problem was the number of small chambers in the mine which may have built up a concentration of methane gas. So we have to mine in such a way as to substantially reduce small chambers.:mellow:
This could be longwall mining. We have 58 million tons of coal. Lets mine the lot and allow settlement to take place above. Protecting miners far outweigh other concerns. Government is clearly willing to listen to The Coast in the present circumstances. It will take some cash which we and Govt can put in to create a safe mine owned by Kiwis.:mellow:
Could you please comment Monkey Poms on what I have posted. Am I anywhere near right?:mellow:
The attitude on the Coast, from tonights TV news was to keep the miners working.:mellow:
Plus John Key, PM, indicated that Govt would step up to help. But we have to do a bit also.

[warthog]

John Key, PM, indicated that Govt would step up to help.

Oh no. They smell an opportunity to have a go at conservation land. The hog can hear it now: "Let's keep the miners working!".


But we have to do a bit also.

Why?

[mouse]

Oh no. They smell an opportunity to have a go at conservation land. The hog can hear it now: "Let's keep the miners working!".
Why?

Because we want to make a dollar and keep Coasters working. Government must change the rules and protect miners more than snails.

[Balance]

Because we want to make a dollar and keep Coasters working. Government must change the rules and protect miners more than snails.

The Greenies have been remarkably quiet right through this saga.

[friedegg]

Because we want to make a dollar and keep Coasters working. Government must change the rules and protect miners more than snails.
coasters may never have to work again with all the donations and funds being set up,the rights issue may be sort for the heavy penalties and compensation prc may cop

[MrDevine]

Looks like rugged country for open cast mines.

Are there any other open cast mines down there? To my knowledge the nearby Solid Energy mines are of a similar nature and have operated fine. Have we all forgotten that mining is an inherently dangerous business and that miners are compensated for this? This is a real tragedy, but in life as always 'sh*t happens' and unfortunately life is not fair all of the time.

My thoughts are with the families, as to lose so many in a small community is very tough.

Maybe the government through Solid Energy could buy NZO's shareholding and go into a PPP with Pike River shareholders?

Mr D.

[Monkey Poms]

I am now speculating. It seems to me that one problem was the number of small chambers in the mine which may have built up a concentration of methane gas. So we have to mine in such a way as to substantially reduce small chambers.:mellow:
This could be longwall mining. We have 58 million tons of coal. Lets mine the lot and allow settlement to take place above. Protecting miners far outweigh other concerns. Government is clearly willing to listen to The Coast in the present circumstances. It will take some cash which we and Govt can put in to create a safe mine owned by Kiwis.:mellow:
Could you please comment Monkey Poms on what I have posted. Am I anywhere near right?:mellow:
The attitude on the Coast, from tonights TV news was to keep the miners working.:mellow:
Plus John Key, PM, indicated that Govt would step up to help. But we have to do a bit also.

Hi Mouse. I have been to various types of mines around the world and from my experience, comparing them with the Pike mine set up, I think Peter Whittall helped make a first class job. However, I think something out of the ordinary may have occurred to have caused this disaster.
We may never find out.We can all speculate as to why,but unless we know for sure I would not have the stomach to risk more men with underground mining.
If Pike has a future, Opencast is the way forward. If you Kiwis can build a road up to Cardrona you can build a road up to the top of our mine.
A precedent has been set.( the Island Block opencast operation ).
Will it work? Financially, yes. It seems at a ratio of removing 20 metres of earth to 1 metre of coal will give a good return on a steam coal valuation. Pike produced high quality coking coal,more or less double the value of steam coal.
Pike could adapt and use the same pipework used to transport coal from the mine to the washing plant.
It is sad, but a hard fact, that even if you cut the oxygen off from the mine it could continue to smoulder for a decade.

I was sickened to hear from a post in this forum that your planning authorities compromised safety by not allowing
a track for the purpose of drilling air vents, ( I know that you have rules on this matter ).

In the UK, Planning authorities would ask for a bond, a sum of money provided by the company wishing to disturb
any land. If the company went bankrupt, or for some reason refused to put the land back to its original state, then
the company would lose its bond. Then the authorities would use the funds to rectify the situation. I don't know the
planning rules in N.Z.

Monkey Poms.

[the machine]

The Greenies have been remarkably quiet right through this saga.

Straight to the point Balance.

Next development phase in NZ will put safe reasonable development first - this is ahead of preserving all the wilderness.

NZ needs to generate export $$$ instead of exporting people to Australia to find work and what they want out of life.

Did not the greenies keep labor in power towards the end of their reign.


If there is a huge powershift in NZ politics, then that may be a legacy to the 29 miners.


M

[friedegg]

I was sickened to hear from a post in this forum that your planning authorities compromised safety by not allowing
a track for the purpose of drilling air vents, ( I know that you have rules on this matter ).

i havnt read the post monkey but i think it may have been during the rescue,the media reported that our department of conservation generously allowed the rescue effort to cut a track up to the main vent shaft(previously anything pike did near that vent shaft,it had to be choppered in)
you do have to remember that nz is a clean green country where dairy farms have never polluted our environment,citizens dont engage in recycling actively,doc drop poisionous pellets that are banned in most modern countries all over our bush to kill a few possums and god knows what else,subdivisions of housing are granted with little sewage thought,waste oil is thrown over metal roads to stop the dust,and the pro green people drive to conventions in thier 68 kombies sending smoke signals to othes in 72 diesel mercs as to the whereabouts of the latest good drugs

[Monkey Poms]

I was sickened to hear from a post in this forum that your planning authorities compromised safety by not allowing
a track for the purpose of drilling air vents, ( I know that you have rules on this matter ).

i havnt read the post monkey but i think it may have been during the rescue,the media reported that our department of conservation generously allowed the rescue effort to cut a track up to the main vent shaft(previously anything pike did near that vent shaft,it had to be choppered in)
you do have to remember that nz is a clean green country where dairy farms have never polluted our environment,citizens dont engage in recycling actively,doc drop poisionous pellets that are banned in most modern countries all over our bush to kill a few possums and god knows what else,subdivisions of housing are granted with little sewage thought,waste oil is thrown over metal roads to stop the dust,and the pro green people drive to conventions in thier 68 kombies sending smoke signals to othes in 72 diesel mercs as to the whereabouts of the latest good drugs

Sadly Friedegg I think it is correct,

I agree with you NZ is a green and beautiful country, if i had fewer commitments
in the UK I would want to be a Kiwi.

23-11-2010 08:20 AM #7552
digger
Advanced Member


Join Date
Apr 2001
Posts
2,470

Logan 9 fingers, i like your two last posts.I too often feel we are going backwards.
I have many many things i would like to say about this sad situation we are now in.Here is one.Take just the other day we hear Doc has given approval to make a track to the drilling site.And that the drilling machine is being taken apart and reassembled at the new drilling site.
Now lets go back about 3 to 3.5 years ago when i last spoke to PW.At that time i asked why small drills were not done from above every 200 hunders metres or so as we go into the mine. It would be ventilation and a communation point if ever needed.Well said pW that would be a very good idea but doc would never approve as unless a track was also made the drilling machine would have to be dismantled and reassembled at each site.Red tape means the idea just does not even get considered. So as a species are we going backwards we sure are.Well lets be honest we are but not so much the chinese.
Just returned fron Hong Kong on sunday. Relative who lives there pointed out the new high speed raIL network under construction in Hong Hong which will link to 50000kls of new track into china. While we bog down in red tape they approve this sort of thing in half a day.
Cheers anyway if you can find anything to be cheerful about.
----------------------------------------------------
Monkey Poms.

[Monkey Poms]

So for every 1,000 tonnes of coal that's 10,000 cbm of gas. That's like 315 x 20' containers of gas for every 1,000 tonnes.

Logen.The numbers from your source of information are not much different from high volatile coal mined all over the world.
The figures will be after the gas has been tapped off during the coke making process.

Today I talked to a former owner of a mine which produced coal from the Tilly seam, similar in quality to Pike coal except the ash was much higher. Down in the drift mine they used naked lamps to light up the coal seam powerd by calcium carbide.

In view of what has happend, I was shocked in what he told me, some of the miners actually smoked down the mine.
(a sacking offence if caught) it should have been a hanging offence.

I have heard it was like being in a wind tunnel at the pike mine when the ventilators worked. Something out of the ordinary happend at Pike. We need to find out what?

Monkey Poms,

[MrDevine]

Monkey Poms, well maybe open cast will be the way the govt wants Pike to go. I note friedegg points out that NZ is not all clean and green, but from a brand perspective perception is much more important than reality. I'm not much interested in what China or any other Asian country does in connection with raping its environment, but if we want to think long term (and thats something we've always struggled with in this country) then lets reasonably maintain what we have.

I agree red tape can be reduced, but lets also not forget we are a country at the bottom of the world, many thousands of kms away from markets, I don't think, unless we can get to a population of 10 million plus, will we have enough domestic demand to climb to a financial position like Hong Kong. And frankly if we did that, it would ruin what is special about NZ in the first place.

Does no one pay any attention to the quality of life surveys put out by the UN and other thinktanks, NZ consistently rates in the Top 5 place in the world to live in. I've been to other places and I wholeheartedly agree. I'm tired of comparing ourselves to Hong Kong, Shanghai, Sydney etc, its not a valid comparison.

We can't be that short on cash though, I note with pride that kiwis have given 2m to PRC Trust Fund, this will in a small way ease the pain for the families.

Mr D.

[J R Ewing]

Open cast mining in a National Park??? What are you guys thinking?

[fungus pudding]

Open cast mining in a National Park??? What are you guys thinking?


Common sense.

[Beagle]

Open cast mining in a National Park??? What are you guys thinking?

This is what we're thinking Dude. 58 million tonnes of coal extracted = 2 million tonnes per man lost @ U.S.$200 tonne = $U.S.400m per man lost x 29 = approx $N.Z.15 billion in gross export dollars, a lot of which flows through to the West Coast and provides a legacy of economic well-being for generations to come for the badly affected coasters. Who gives a f##k if a few dozen hectares of green hillside is affected for a few decades, it will eventually regenerate.

Its long overdue that the Greenies wake up, smell the coffee and get in the real world where jobs and economic prosperity actually makes real big differences to people's shattered lives. We can't all live in communes, collect the dole and plat each others hair.

Government agencies allowing this mine to proceed to go ahead and be open cast would be the very best way for them to allow the very sad loss of these men's lives to really mean something. I'm really sick of the clean and green B.S. FFS lets get on and try and drive some economic wellbeing.
I really hope someone in the corridors of power in Wellington reads my this post and takes notice of it.

[warthog]

Straight to the point Balance.

Next development phase in NZ will put safe reasonable development first - this is ahead of preserving all the wilderness.

NZ needs to generate export $$$ instead of exporting people to Australia to find work and what they want out of life.

Did not the greenies keep labor in power towards the end of their reign.

The hog isn't a member of the green party (or any other party) but this seems stupid at best, ignorant at worst.

Essentially you are suggesting that we continue to place the destruction of natural land over short-term economic interests.

And it isn't like the majority of those investments will flow back to New Zealanders as a group. Once somebody has made a profit from it, yes there's tax, but then a whole raft of inefficiencies all through the system. Then in the final analysis, yet more untouched land will have been knackered. For what? A blip. A few more cars, overseas holidays, flat-screen tvs, or shiny new Toyota Landcruisers?

The situation in relation to NZ's future is simple. Unless NZ pays down debt, and moves towards a more savings and investment, creativity-based culture, embracing technology and high-value exports, the future will be bleak.

Aussie also has huge debt problems as well. NZ and Australia are the Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain (PIGS) of the South Pacific.

All of this even before we start the discussion about our aging population, and how to care for people as they retire.

[warthog]

This is what we're thinking Dude. 58 million tonnes of coal extracted = 2 million tonnes per man lost @ U.S.$200 tonne = $U.S.400m per man lost x 29 = approx $N.Z.15 billion in gross export dollars, a lot of which flows through to the West Coast and provides a legacy of economic well-being for generations to come for the badly affected coasters. Who gives a f##k if a few dozen hectares of green hillside is affected for a few decades, it will eventually regenerate.

Its long overdue that the Greenies wake up, smell the coffee and get in the real world where jobs and economic prosperity actually makes real big differences to people's shattered lives. We can't all live in communes, collect the dole and plat each others hair.

Government agencies allowing this mine to proceed to go ahead and be open cast would be the very best way for them to allow the very sad loss of these men's lives to really mean something. I'm really sick of the clean and green B.S. FFS lets get on and try and drive some economic wellbeing.
I really hope someone in the corridors of power in Wellington reads my this post and takes notice of it.

Well the hog read your post and is having a right old snort about it.

In case you hadn't figured it out, short-term thinking is what has got it into this mess.

And in case you missed it, the way things proceed works on precedent.

The attitude that it is "just a few dozen hectares" is facile and, frankly, naive.

Just because you can't look beyond the period of your lifetime doesn't mean everybody should subscribe to such ultra-shortterm thinking.

In terms of economic activity, keeping up with the neighbours (if that's what's important to you), have a listen to Rod Oram. He doesn't get everything right but he's got his head screwed on so it's looking in the right direction (most either have their head in the sand or are looking backwards).

[warthog]

I agree 100% Roger.

Hilltops in NZ are as common as people....

Tree's out number people....

Snails, well I pick them of the plants in the gardens and feed them to the friendly pukekos living behind the back fence. (I feel this method is a little more freindly way of keeping them in check than throwing chemical pellets all over the garden)

Ducks, they live in the stream near the pukekos behind the back fence and get a bit a maize thrown to them every once in awhile.

What isn't plentiful on either side of our back fence at the moment is jobs. I'd sacrifice all the trees and snails on our section to have a better job than my current one!

NZ is in big trouble if you place your "job" ahead of the environment. That's not a sustainable approach - you're a parasite on future generations.

Good on you re. the snails, though.

[fungus pudding]

The hog isn't a member of the green party (or any other party) but this seems stupid at best, ignorant at worst.

Essentially you are suggesting that we continue to place the destruction of natural land over short-term economic interests.

And it isn't like the majority of those investments will flow back to New Zealanders as a group. Once somebody has made a profit from it, yes there's tax, but then a whole raft of inefficiencies all through the system. Then in the final analysis, yet more untouched land will have been knackered. For what? A blip. A few more cars, overseas holidays, flat-screen tvs, or shiny new Toyota Landcruisers?



And that's a common opinion which I think is unfortunate. Allowing mining would be hugely beneficial to NZ and as long as this is spread over one or two projects at a time with strict restoration requirements then it's nuts not to proceed - the employment prospects alone are huge. The talk of ruining our image is just that - talk. For a start, places like Pike river never attracted anyone and never would. I'm a keen tramper and have been to many out of the way places - many that are hardly visited, so am as keen as many on conservation; but without mining there is nothing. Everything we have involves mined material, and NZ has gold, copper, uranium silver and god-knows-what else. It's crimnal to see it left in the ground when managed properly it could be mined and restored without any permanent damage. And if limited to a low number of simultaneous projects - it would only be noticed by those who seek the sites out simply because of their interest in the operation. e.g. the last time I was in the USA I made a point of going to Salt lake city - not out of religous interests I assure you. I went to look at the copper mine - a massive tourist attraction. Opposition to mining is crazy.

[Beagle]

Well the hog read your post and is having a right old snort about it.

In case you hadn't figured it out, short-term thinking is what has got it into this mess.

And in case you missed it, the way things proceed works on precedent.

The attitude that it is "just a few dozen hectares" is facile and, frankly, naive.

Just because you can't look beyond the period of your lifetime doesn't mean everybody should subscribe to such ultra-shortterm thinking.

In terms of economic activity, keeping up with the neighbours (if that's what's important to you), have a listen to Rod Oram. He doesn't get everything right but he's got his head screwed on so it's looking in the right direction (most either have their head in the sand or are looking backwards).

Snort all you like Hog, its the absolute fanatical obsession with the environment that got us into this mess.

I'm not sure which pen you're circulating in but in the real world people are really hurting from the GFC and $8.5billion lost in finance companies to name just two things.

Precendent is built one step at a time and we need to take a proactive approach to building a future for N.Z., if there's valuable resource in those hills, which clearly there is, the Coast needs to extract it in a safe manner and if a very very small part of the environment is disturbed for a few decades, so bloody what ?

Would you rather have all those families on the breadline for the rest of their lives ?

Think dude, you can stand on your soap box and preech that the natural environment takes absolute precedence over everything else all you like, but why not get out of your sheltered holier than thou pig pen and go and talk to the coasters about it and see what they think ?

If we don't drive economic growth in N.Z. there will be nothing but a backwater for future generations to subsist in.

[Beagle]

And that's a common opinion which I think is unfortunate. Allowing mining would be hugely beneficial to NZ and as long as this is spread over one or two projects at a time with strict restoration requirements then it's nuts not to proceed - the employment prospects alone are huge. The talk of ruining our image is just that - talk. For a start, places like Pike river never attracted anyone and never would. I'm a keen tramper and have been to many out of the way places - many that are hardly visited, so am as keen as many on conservation; but without mining there is nothing. Everything we have involves mined material, and NZ has gold, copper, uranium silver and god-knows-what else. It's crimnal to see it left in the ground when managed properly it could be mined and restored without any permanent damage. And if limited to a low number of simultaneous projects - it would only be noticed by those who seek the sites out simply because of their interest in the operation. e.g. the last time I was in the USA I made a point of going to Salt lake city - not out of religous interests I assure you. I went to look at the copper mine - a massive tourist attraction. Opposition to mining is crazy.

Couldn't agree more. Its time for John Key to stand up and make a name for himself and take a more proactive approach to encouragiong economic growth, including in the area of mining. Oh that's right he did, how could I forget, he was looking to allow mining in National parks to the tune of an area as a percentage of the national parks equilivent to the size of a post card on Eden Park as a way to drive economic growth but the Green and Maori party wouldn't have a bar of it.

New Zealanders need to get real, really quickly or we'll be going down the path of Ireland and Spain sinking under a pile of debt and in a desperate economic state....ohhhh the Greenies won't care because we're so clean and green....I'm so happy, (NOT).

[ggreenlees]

Great forum, here's an overview from PRESS 24/11/10.


Uncertainty about Pike River Coal's future is already affecting the earnings of other companies and the economy of the West Coast.

Both state-owned coalminer Solid Energy and Lyttelton Port of Christchurch will have lower revenues or higher costs associated with the Pike River crisis – while miners remain trapped.

Development West Coast says the region is highly dependent on the mining or extraction industry but is also dependent on tourism, which has already been disrupted by the influx of specialists to help with the rescue mission as well as media.

DWC chief executive Dr John Chang said the extraction industry was worth $755 million to the Coast in the fiscal 2009 year, while tourism was worth $140m in the same period.

The dairy industry was worth around $364m to the region annually, and Westland Milk Products had revenues in the order of half a billion dollars a year.

Chang said he had already had calls from regular visitors to the region, unable to book beds given the influx of other people into Greymouth.

"It's temporary, but it's an interruption to the normal influx of tourists, actually," he said.

"This is the start of a busy season for tourists coming into town or the West Coast."

It was important to maintain the tourism industry for the West Coast.

Mining was equally important, he said, though he could not attribute an economic value from the Pike River mine to the region.

Some initial discussions were being held with businessowners/stake holders as well as community leaders about the impact of the mine closure, but that would be publicly discussed later.

"It's not quite the right time to think about that ... I've already been talking to key people in preparation for whatever will eventuate."

The West Coast had been through a healthy period in recent years in terms of industry and primary production, Chang said, with mining "a fantastic contributor to the local economy ...

[B]"The general West Coast economy on GDP [a gross domestic product basis] is worth about $1.4 billion. It's not a lightweight either – for the population."

Tourism could grow significantly.

"That has a huge potential for the Coast, over 1.2 million international tourists go through the West Coast region, and half a million domestic tourists.

"So the challenge is to make them stay longer."

As a community, the West Coast was pulling together.

DWC, a trust which promoted investment in the region, had with the local Countdown supermarket prepared a grocery voucher to distribute to the 29 families of the trapped miners.

[arjay]

There are some very silly and naive statements being made here. Some posters seem to regard green-thinking folk as some sort of non-thinking sub-human species. Nothing is farther from the truth - in fact, the average green is probably more forward-thinking that most of us. Green opposition to mining a Pike originally stemmed from the potential effects on flora and fauna. The disaster at Pike is unlikely to siginificantly affect the wellbeing of the kinds of non-human species originally of concern, so it is not surprising there has not been comment from green-minded folk. The opposite does not seem to have occurred though - although green-minded folk have not commented on the Pike tragedy, nor were they in any way responsible, a number of posters here are out with their brushes and tar - this is really weird.

[whatsup]

There are some very silly and naive statements being made here. Some posters seem to regard green-thinking folk as some sort of non-thinking sub-human species. Nothing is farther from the truth - in fact, the average green is probably more forward-thinking that most of us. Green opposition to mining a Pike originally stemmed from the potential effects on flora and fauna. The disaster at Pike is unlikely to siginificantly affect the wellbeing of the kinds of non-human species originally of concern, so it is not surprising there has not been comment from green-minded folk. The opposite does not seem to have occurred though - although green-minded folk have not commented on the Pike tragedy, nor were they in any way responsible, a number of posters here are out with their brushes and tar - this is really weird. Arj...,

how much "forna and flora" does N Z need , sad fact is that most of the Paparoa Forest is 3rd rate at best while the PRCoal was first grade and could have been extracted safely with cooperation by all interested parties, IMHO D-C has alot to answer here, precious beyond words and who was minister of CROC at the time was it not Aunty Helen ( who has now flown off to work in that great smoke stack in N Y city).

[Balance]

There are some very silly and naive statements being made here. Some posters seem to regard green-thinking folk as some sort of non-thinking sub-human species. Nothing is farther from the truth - in fact, the average green is probably more forward-thinking that most of us. Green opposition to mining a Pike originally stemmed from the potential effects on flora and fauna. The disaster at Pike is unlikely to siginificantly affect the wellbeing of the kinds of non-human species originally of concern, so it is not surprising there has not been comment from green-minded folk. The opposite does not seem to have occurred though - although green-minded folk have not commented on the Pike tragedy, nor were they in any way responsible, a number of posters here are out with their brushes and tar - this is really weird.

The greenies want to enjoy their nice cars, houses, clothings etc but also want 'sustainable' economic development and wealth generation - all very good stuff.

Have you seen anyone of them made a single step towards really making a meaningful cut-back in their living standard to assist in that direction?

So far it is them telling everyone that everyone else must cut back.

Hypocrisy on a grand scale.

[arjay]

Hi Whatsup,

I agree that much of the forest around there is 3rd-rate. A lot of this of course is due to the lingering effects of previous extractive industries - the regenerating beech forest growing over all those dredge tailings around Blackball is a good example of this. The point I was making is that anger over this tragedy should not be aimed at those who had no part in it. Ironically, if DOC (remember Eugenie Sage leading the charge?) and the Greens had won the day all those years ago we would likely still have those miners with us. As for your first question "how much flora and fauna do we need", the answer lies in another question: "If we don't want to use the land, should we get rid of the flora and fauna anyway because we have to much for our own good?".

[Beagle]

The greenies want to enjoy their nice cars, houses, clothings etc but also want 'sustainable' economic development and wealth generation - all very good stuff.

Have you seen anyone of them made a single step towards really making a meaningful cut-back in their living standard to assist in that direction?

So far it is them telling everyone that everyone else must cut back.

Hypocrisy on a grand scale.

Totally agreed. Perhaps some greenie would like to shed some light on how some hill in a national park backwater is worth more than $15 billion. Then they can explain to us all how they are going to support some other business venuture(s) that will provide well paying jobs for all the deeply affected coasters.

[arjay]

The greenies want to enjoy their nice cars, houses, clothings etc but also want 'sustainable' economic development and wealth generation - all very good stuff.

Have you seen anyone of them made a single step towards really making a meaningful cut-back in their living standard to assist in that direction?

So far it is them telling everyone that everyone else must cut back.

Hypocrisy on a grand scale.

I suspect there may be a number of examples Balance, but could you please explain how this implicate the Greens in the Pike disaster?

[Balance]

I suspect there may be a number of examples Balance, but could you please explain how this implicate the Greens in the Pike disaster?

How do elephants drink?

[Snoopy]

I have heard it was like being in a wind tunnel at the pike mine when the ventilators worked. Something out of the ordinary happened at Pike. We need to find out what?


Monkey Poms, the PRC mine when the first blast hit was only at the beginning of its development. The existing ventilation system would have been designed to cope with methane leakage for at least a decade into the mine's life. With the mine in its current state of development, the ventilation system would be gigantically over engineered for the task at hand, which would back up your 'roaring wind tunnel' anecdote. Talk that there should have been more ventilation holes up to the surface, the non existence of which has been blamed on DOC policy is I think is spurious in the context of when this accident happened in relation to the life of the mine. I think your point that something out of the ordinary happened is the only rational interpretation of the facts as we know them.

If the power failed and the ventilation shut down, there should have been enough time for those miners to proceed to one of the safe chambers while just one or two worked on getting the ventilation system restarted. The unlikely combination of all of the miners in each of the three working gang sites having simultaneous failure of their on the spot warning equipment leads me to conclude that what happened must have been very sudden and unexpected.

The ventilation system would have had 'design performance criteria' based on the rate of noxious gas emission based around the average natural leakage rate for gases as known to occur in that type of mine. It would also have had a built in safety factor that I suspect would have allowed it to extract gas around five times faster than any build up of gas would occur on average. I guess it is possible that some pocket of gas formed because of the particular layout of those underground tunnels. It is also possible some underground source of methane was suddenly unleashed that swamped any normal leakage by an order of magnitude that went way outside the design criteria of the ventilation system. However, while those are possibilities human error is also a possibility. Perhaps when the power went down and the lights went out, one of the greener miners simply lit up a fag in a 'safe' area of the mine? We just don't know and may never know.


SNOOPY

[J R Ewing]

This is what we're thinking Dude. 58 million tonnes of coal extracted = 2 million tonnes per man lost @ U.S.$200 tonne = $U.S.400m per man lost x 29 = approx $N.Z.15 billion in gross export dollars, a lot of which flows through to the West Coast and provides a legacy of economic well-being for generations to come for the badly affected coasters. Who gives a f##k if a few dozen hectares of green hillside is affected for a few decades, it will eventually regenerate.

Its long overdue that the Greenies wake up, smell the coffee and get in the real world where jobs and economic prosperity actually makes real big differences to people's shattered lives. We can't all live in communes, collect the dole and plat each others hair.

Government agencies allowing this mine to proceed to go ahead and be open cast would be the very best way for them to allow the very sad loss of these men's lives to really mean something. I'm really sick of the clean and green B.S. FFS lets get on and try and drive some economic wellbeing.
I really hope someone in the corridors of power in Wellington reads my this post and takes notice of it.

I'm not a Greenie, I'm a Pike shareholder via NZO. But in terms of "wake up and smell the coffee", perhaps you would like to consider the economic benefit of this coal in comparison to tourism. If the coal can be extracted safely, with minimal environmental impact, then I'm in favor. Shifting vast quantities of earth around our national parks and other DOC estates via open cast mining is an absurd proposal in my opinion. I can't see it happening, and I'm very glad about that. Pike got the go ahead because the long term environmental effect was expected to be minimal at worst, hopefully actually positive. If, as is rumored, we should have had more ventillation shafts but Doc would not allow them - that was tragic - if we are going to have a mine it needs to be safe.

But open cast mining our National parks is a dumb idea. These parks are NZ's unique heritage - they are not some desert wasteland in the midst of a vast empty continent like Australia. That isn't the way we are going to close the economic gap!

[LJB]

If the mine hadn't blown up and PRC was in full production, we would all hail this mine as a triumph for balance between short term mineral exploitation and maintenance of conssrvation values. There seems to be more rabid fervour in the posts of 'Greenie' bashers than the few measured responses of investors who recognise the need for a functioning economy in tandem with an ethic of wise management of the conservation estate.

Open cast mining in that location is a ludicrous suggestion at this stage.

Rants about 1080 and other irrelevent issues to this thread don't do much to further the intelligent dialogue that usually makes this site a useful and informative forum.

[skid]

Im not argueing one way or the other on the conservation issue,but seems to me there are some who like to use the Muldoon approach of ''If you dont like the issue,attack the people''

[Baddarcy]

Heard a few positive things today:

1) They think the fire in the mine is gas fire not a coal fire, so much easier to put out
2) The big jet engine gas blower thingy is already at the mine and should be ready to go by Monday
3) The mine has "Major Event Insurance"
4) The mine also has "Business Interuption Insurance"
5) NZO has released $12m to PRC
6) NZO and extending loan repayment to end of Feb and allowing interest to be capitalised until then
7) Also just remembered a new ABM20 is due to arrive in a few weeks and the cont miner is in a shop in Greymouth getting fixed so not a total loss

[blockhead]

You have to think positively, what else can you do ?

The PRC Board is meeting now, to take a clean slate approach (not possible I know) you would have to consider, if there is a huge coal resource in a hill with all the tunnels, roads, consents and machinery in place what should they do ? They have no choice they must continue the mine.

In my mind they owe it to the 29, to toss their hands in the air would be to say, sorry boys, all you did was wasted.

I have sent an email telling them I will be looking to support the mine from here.

[LJB]

Heard a few positive things today:

1) They think the fire in the mine is gas fire not a coal fire, so much easier to put out
2) The big jet engine gas blower thingy is already at the mine and should be ready to go by Monday
3) The mine has "Major Event Insurance"
4) The mine also has "Business Interuption Insurance"
5) NZO has released $12m to PRC
6) NZO and extending loan repayment to end of Feb and allowing interest to be capitalised until then
7) Also just remembered a new ABM20 is due to arrive in a few weeks and the cont miner is in a shop in Greymouth getting fixed so not a total loss

Now that's sort of post I like to read. Not because it is optimistic but because it is informative. That was a quick transit for the blower 'thingy'.

[Beagle]

I'm not a Greenie, I'm a Pike shareholder via NZO. But in terms of "wake up and smell the coffee", perhaps you would like to consider the economic benefit of this coal in comparison to tourism. If the coal can be extracted safely, with minimal environmental impact, then I'm in favor. Shifting vast quantities of earth around our national parks and other DOC estates via open cast mining is an absurd proposal in my opinion. I can't see it happening, and I'm very glad about that. Pike got the go ahead because the long term environmental effect was expected to be minimal at worst, hopefully actually positive. If, as is rumored, we should have had more ventillation shafts but Doc would not allow them - that was tragic - if we are going to have a mine it needs to be safe.

But open cast mining our National parks is a dumb idea. These parks are NZ's unique heritage - they are not some desert wasteland in the midst of a vast empty continent like Australia. That isn't the way we are going to close the economic gap!

See the quote from the press posted earlier today regarding the relative value of tourism vs mining which says it all, post 7697 - (Extraction industry worth more than five times the value of Tourism to the Coast).

We have absolutly vast quantities of National Parks, on the other hand we have very few jobs on the coast. To open cast mine a tiny area of National Parks that's equilivent to perhaps a postage stamp compared to the size of Eden Park, and perhaps over the next 20 or 30 years to expand that to a postcard size, if its the only truly safe way to extract a $15 billion resource makes good common sense to me and confers real, tangible and enduring economic benifets to desperatly affected families on the coast. Sensible open cast mining where appropriate is eactly what will close part of the economic gap with Australia and the fact that most people in New Zealand find that sort of progessive economic thinking unacceptable is why we will remain an economic back water.

When they close the mine due to the loss of life and the fact that they can't open cast it and they can't find a way to operate it with 100% safety, don't forget to remind all the coasters what a really pristine peice of our national park exists on that hill, I am sure they will be very happy to hear all about it.

[fungus pudding]

But open cast mining our National parks is a dumb idea. These parks are NZ's unique heritage - they are not some desert wasteland in the midst of a vast empty continent like Australia. That isn't the way we are going to close the economic gap!


If places like Pike river were open cast mined, only the West coast locals would ever know, and they'd be all for it.

[warthog]

And if limited to a low number of simultaneous projects ... opposition to mining is crazy.

See the hog's earlier reference to precedent.

[J R Ewing]

See the quote from the press posted earlier today regarding the relative value of tourism vs mining which says it all, post 7697 - (Extraction industry worth more than five times the value of Tourism to the Coast).

We have absolutly vast quantities of National Parks, on the other hand we have very few jobs on the coast. To open cast mine a tiny area of National Parks that's equilivent to perhaps a postage stamp compared to the size of Eden Park, and perhaps over the next 20 or 30 years to expand that to a postcard size, if its the only truly safe way to extract a $15 billion resource makes good common sense to me and confers real, tangible and enduring economic benifets to desperatly affected families on the coast. Sensible open cast mining where appropriate is eactly what will close part of the economic gap with Australia and the fact that most people in New Zealand find that sort of progessive economic thinking unacceptable is why we will remain an economic back water.

When they close the mine due to the loss of life and the fact that they can't open cast it and they can't find a way to operate it with 100% safety, don't forget to remind all the coasters what a really pristine peice of our national park exists on that hill, I am sure they will be very happy to hear all about it.

That comparison is very misleading, tourism contributes more to gdp than mining by a considerable margin. If you figure open cast mining is sensible and appropriate in a National Park, where would it NOT be sensible or appropriate? You also seem to assume that "all the coasters" support open cast mining - that is simply not true.

[Zito]

"See the quote from the press posted earlier today regarding the relative value of tourism vs mining which says it all, post 7697 - (Extraction industry worth more than five times the value of Tourism to the Coast).

We have absolutly vast quantities of National Parks, on the other hand we have very few jobs on the coast. To open cast mine a tiny area of National Parks that's equilivent to perhaps a postage stamp compared to the size of Eden Park, and perhaps over the next 20 or 30 years to expand that to a postcard size, if its the only truly safe way to extract a $15 billion resource makes good common sense to me and confers real, tangible and enduring economic benifets to desperatly affected families on the coast. Sensible open cast mining where appropriate is eactly what will close part of the economic gap with Australia and the fact that most people in New Zealand find that sort of progessive economic thinking unacceptable is why we will remain an economic back water.

When they close the mine due to the loss of life and the fact that they can't open cast it and they can't find a way to operate it with 100% safety, don't forget to remind all the coasters what a really pristine peice of our national park exists on that hill, I am sure they will be very happy to hear all about it."


Best post I've seen on this issue. Bravo Roger, keep it up.

[warthog]

Maybe a bit personal there Hog, but so be it.

Not intended as such. How about "that approach is ultimately parasitic". You can self-select if you wish :-)


On the other hand, I guess I could simply quit my job, fund the stand down by selling a few shares and then collect the dole. That contribution would go much further towards providing for future generations. :rolleyes:

Well at least it wouldn't be as destructive as mining.

Mining and other such activities are like parasites that cause the death of their host i.e. it's an evolutionary dead-end. The hog doesn't know any simpler way to state this.

[warthog]

The greenies want to enjoy their nice cars, houses, clothings etc but also want 'sustainable' economic development and wealth generation - all very good stuff.

Have you seen anyone of them made a single step towards really making a meaningful cut-back in their living standard to assist in that direction?

So far it is them telling everyone that everyone else must cut back.

Hypocrisy on a grand scale.

Hypocrisy is all around us. Still, the hog concedes, some so-called "green" policies/initiatives are inconsistent with how some people live and their unrealistic expectations. It's all relative though.

[warthog]

I'm not a Greenie, I'm a Pike shareholder via NZO. But in terms of "wake up and smell the coffee", perhaps you would like to consider the economic benefit of this coal in comparison to tourism. If the coal can be extracted safely, with minimal environmental impact, then I'm in favor. Shifting vast quantities of earth around our national parks and other DOC estates via open cast mining is an absurd proposal in my opinion. I can't see it happening, and I'm very glad about that. Pike got the go ahead because the long term environmental effect was expected to be minimal at worst, hopefully actually positive. If, as is rumored, we should have had more ventillation shafts but Doc would not allow them - that was tragic - if we are going to have a mine it needs to be safe.

But open cast mining our National parks is a dumb idea. These parks are NZ's unique heritage - they are not some desert wasteland in the midst of a vast empty continent like Australia. That isn't the way we are going to close the economic gap!

+1. Well put JRE.

Hey Roger, once we've made the desert and we're all wealthy (no matter that a kilo of tomatoes costs $500), we could spend the money making our very own NZ version of Las Vegas!

[geezy]

Do people not know that dairy farming is one of THE biggest contribution to global warming? Spare me the BS about the environment and get real , seriously.

Using green to cover un-green stuff doesnt make u any environmentally friendly, dont drive your car then. Oil rigs are in your ocean and why dont u ban that?

Peoples lives depends on $$, a sustainable economy is what is needed and jobs kept in NZ .so the population grows.

I still applaud NZ's effort but the hypocrisy is appalling.

[shasta]

Now that's sort of post I like to read. Not because it is optimistic but because it is informative. That was a quick transit for the blower 'thingy'.

The locals in the area will likely want to keep the mine open, & once the grisly task of recovering the bodies & assessing the damage is done, the PIKE board have to start up a contingency plan to get the mine up & running again, once safe.

Might take another 12 months & more cash injection but the mine should be reopened to provide jobs & the wider economic benefits to the area

I just hope, there isnt needless witch hunts dragging this out & keeping the mine closed, when getting back to business is the West Coast way

For the Pike workers, returning to the mine will be bloody hard, but in a way it will be honouring those who perished

Great post Baddarcy

[geezy]

Not intended as such. How about "that approach is ultimately parasitic". You can self-select if you wish :-)



Well at least it wouldn't be as destructive as mining.

Mining and other such activities are like parasites that cause the death of their host i.e. it's an evolutionary dead-end. The hog doesn't know any simpler way to state this.

Did u think where your cash for the dole comes from? Tax payers mr hog. if theres no economy and no one working, there will be no dole? Your comments are truly.....amazing....

[Crypto Crude]

As a believer and someone who has seen a ghost,
I wouldnt want to work in that mine...
those would be some angry spirits...
to freaky for me...
:cool:
.^sc

[MrDevine]

Some of the posting here is daft, I trust that views such as Rogers, Balance, Fungus and Geezy aren't common place when it comes to how 'kiwis' view their environment. Lets separate the open cast mining issue for a minute. It was thought feasible to do a tunnel mine and something went terribly wrong (it is a high risk business remember) and now we blame the 'greenies' for everything that is wrong with NZ, unbelievable. We must at all costs protect National Parks, if you start open cast mining in one park, then where do you stop?

Has anybody on this board said Dairy farming was completely environmentally sound? Maintaing the environment should be a common sense approach to sustaining our wellbeing, afterall surely well tended land produces more $$$ (and thats what we're so completely obsessed with in New Zealand isn't it, more $$$).

I'm sure the mine will be started again when it's safe to do so and when causes have been pinpointed.

Mr D.

[MrDevine]

Oh, and also, if you'd like more $$$ and not happy about the 'greenies' or the fact that 'we're sliding down the ladder' or 'falling behind', might be best to move somewhere else, like Australia, lovely place, don't need to worry about the environment over there, it's mostly desert anyway, no problems with digging up all and sundry.

But did I mention the $$$!

Mr D

[LJB]

Well said Mr. D

[shasta]

As a believer and someone who has seen a ghost,
I wouldnt want to work in that mine...
those would be some angry spirits...
to freaky for me...
:cool:
.^sc

The local iwi will be there to do a traditional ceremony to lift the spirits of the dead, & cleanse the mine once the bodies have been recovered.

Would appreciate someone with maori knowledge, posting what its called, "Karakia" i think?

[fungus pudding]

Some of the posting here is daft, I trust that views such as Rogers, Balance, Fungus and Geezy aren't common place when it comes to how 'kiwis' view their environment. Lets separate the open cast mining issue for a minute. It was thought feasible to do a tunnel mine and something went terribly wrong (it is a high risk business remember) and now we blame the 'greenies' for everything that is wrong with NZ, unbelievable. We must at all costs protect National Parks, if you start open cast mining in one park, then where do you stop?

Mr D.

Easy. We stop right there and commence another only when the first is restored, or perhaps allow two at a time or one per island. The area required for a mine is so minute compared to the total area of our national parks it's just not worth worrying about. Have a look at vast areas like Fiordland, and ask your self if one tiny little mine, that no-one will even be conscious of unless they have an interest in geology or something, will have any negative impact. It won't, but the benefits will be immense.

[shasta]

Straight to the point Balance.

Next development phase in NZ will put safe reasonable development first - this is ahead of preserving all the wilderness.

NZ needs to generate export $$$ instead of exporting people to Australia to find work and what they want out of life.

Did not the greenies keep labor in power towards the end of their reign.


If there is a huge powershift in NZ politics, then that may be a legacy to the 29 miners.


M

Probably good that the ill informed Greenies shut up then, the Labour Party was founded by miners on the West Coast, & National & ACT dont want a bar of them Greens. Coming out against mining will be the end of them in Parliament period!

They have snookered themselves & can really only keep out of any intelligent debate on mining v conservation.

John Key & National have gone about this quite well so far, so its hard to see where Phil Goff can gain any leverage either.

Mining will continue as per & the Greenies can go back to all there sexual orientation policies & leave the business stuff to those who know

[Silverlight]

Did anyone else see this?


Pike River Coal had two "business interruption" insurance policies for $100m and the company was working to lodge the claims.

[Beagle]

"See the quote from the press posted earlier today regarding the relative value of tourism vs mining which says it all, post 7697 - (Extraction industry worth more than five times the value of Tourism to the Coast).

We have absolutly vast quantities of National Parks, on the other hand we have very few jobs on the coast. To open cast mine a tiny area of National Parks that's equilivent to perhaps a postage stamp compared to the size of Eden Park, and perhaps over the next 20 or 30 years to expand that to a postcard size, if its the only truly safe way to extract a $15 billion resource makes good common sense to me and confers real, tangible and enduring economic benifets to desperatly affected families on the coast. Sensible open cast mining where appropriate is eactly what will close part of the economic gap with Australia and the fact that most people in New Zealand find that sort of progessive economic thinking unacceptable is why we will remain an economic back water.

When they close the mine due to the loss of life and the fact that they can't open cast it and they can't find a way to operate it with 100% safety, don't forget to remind all the coasters what a really pristine peice of our national park exists on that hill, I am sure they will be very happy to hear all about it."


Best post I've seen on this issue. Bravo Roger, keep it up.

Thanks for the encouragement mate, I just ducked in to see what the "claytons greenies" have been saying, havn't got time to reply to them all this arvo but looking forward to having a robust debate with them on Monday.

[J R Ewing]

Easy. We stop right there and commence another only when the first is restored, or perhaps allow two at a time or one per island. The area required for a mine is so minute compared to the total area of our national parks it's just not worth worrying about. Have a look at vast areas like Fiordland, and ask your self if one tiny little mine, that no-one will even be conscious of unless they have an interest in geology or something, will have any negative impact. It won't, but the benefits will be immense.

The postcard on Eden Park analogy referred to UNDERGROUND mining, and even that is dubious IMO. Open cast is vastly different. If you bulldoze the earth of the whole area and then put it back when you are finished, you won't get the heritage area back (at least in a reasonable timeframe). How long do you think it will takes for Coromandel Kauri forest to regenerate? 500 years? 1000 years? Longer? Ever? I guess it will all be the same in the really long term when the sun explodes!

[Ian]

http://australianetworknews.com/stories/201011/3077483.htm?desktop

The evaluation of the damage done to Pike River's operations won't be able to take place until the mine is cleared and the men recovered, Pike River chairman John Dow said today.

He said he company needs to assess how much damage has occurred underground.

"Clearly we won't be a coal mine for a while," he said. But it has value and can be rebuilt, he said.

He couldn't say how much it would cost or how long it would take.

Pike River Coal has two "business interruption" insurance policies for $100m and they are working to lodge the claims.

A staff meeting was held on Monday and assurances given about wages until the Christmas period is over, he said.

"Christmas is coming, their families are torn apart already by this tragedy."

"Our priority still remains to make the mine safe and recover our staff," Dow said.

[Crypto Crude]

This is what one of the victims said on facebook the day before the first explosion...My best friends brother...






Ben Rockhouse- Im sick and tired of being so f**king accident prone. Cant go a day without hurting myself or a month without almost dieing

[Lizard]

Rumours of a 3rd explosion are appearing on-line.

[shasta]

Rumours of a 3rd explosion are appearing on-line.

Just heard that too, & also that PW said they are in the process of sealing the mine to starve the oxygen, but no injuries

[Lizard]

Looks like the rumour of a 3rd explosion may have been just a rumour - 3 News have pulled it from their update again.

[Crypto Crude]

Shasta I believe a Karakia was performed at a stream nearby..
I am no expert in this sort of thing, but I have had my experiences with the other side... even I can see this wond tutting ceremony would do nothing to cleanse the mine because its not performed in the mine where the bodies are...
Infact, it would only intensify energies as it opens up our World to the otherside.....

I have seen to much to not believe in this stuff.. just my opinion only...


Karakia are Māori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori) incantations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incantations) and prayers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakia#cite_note-0).
Karakia are generally used to ensure a favourable outcome of important undertakings. They are also considered a formal greeting when beginning a ceremony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremony). According to legend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend), in the village of Ruatoria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruatoria), there was a curse on the Waiapu River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiapu_River) which was lifted when Hori Keeti (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hori_Keeti&action=edit&redlink=1) performed karakia.
In the Māori religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_religion), karakia are used to ritually cleanse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual) the homes of the deceased after a burial.

:cool:
.^sc

[shasta]

Looks like the rumour of a 3rd explosion may have been just a rumour - 3 News have pulled it from their update again.

NZ Herald leading with it, a smaller explosion approx 29 seconds

[duncan macgregor]

The only way to stop the mine exploding is flood it. That would dowse the smouldering fires which would flare up into new explosions if you pump fresh air in. If they open the mine in the future they should get it right next time and have predrilled escape shafts along the route of the mine in advance. This would allow gas to escape before mining got to it and would be an inexpensive method of keeping the mine safe. One big mistake after another led to this tragedy.
1st mistake Pay out millions to transport the coal by barge then change their mind.
2nd mistake pay out a ridiculous sum of money to get the power on site through rugged country making it prone to power failures.
3rd Mistake Not to buy generators that would have made it more reliable and cheaper to run.
4th mistake not having reliable gas warning system in place the canary in the cage might have been more reliable than what they appeared to be using.
5th mistake not allowing miners to rush in right after the blast when the window of opportunity was available.
I could go on but no point PRC has been a total shambles from start to finish. Macdunk

[patrick]

I visited the mine for the Meeting 11 days ago.
Before the mine was talked about perhaps ten hunters a year saw the area where the mine developed.
An open cast mine should be seriously considered...the only practical result is that the Greenies would have to avert their eyes if the Air NZ flight happened over; it normally passes south of Ross.
There is a large debt to the Mining Community.

[Crypto Crude]

rightly so mackdunk,
but that didnt stop you from tipping PRC as your best mining stock at the time...
That was when the share price was $1.80...
you were recommending to buy PRC at its all time high...
your mate,
shrewd...
keeping you honest...
:cool:
.^sc

[warthog]

Did u think where your cash for the dole comes from? Tax payers mr hog. if theres no economy and no one working, there will be no dole? Your comments are truly.....amazing....

Doesn't take much to amaze you Geezy.

Cash for the dole (not something the hog has any use for; the dole, that is; cash is always nice) coes from a variety of sources of which mining is unfortunately one. But for how much longer? Not much, the hog hopes.

[Robomo]

The only way to stop the mine exploding is....

5th mistake not allowing miners to rush in right after the blast when the window of opportunity was available.
I could go on but no point PRC has been a total shambles from start to finish. Macdunk

Yeah right. And where would these miners come from? Greymouth, Reefton, Blackball Hilton perhaps. If they hurried they might get there, kitted out, charge in with no idea what was inside the mine in ...say 4 hours. Of course the tea lady and typist from the mine office might have got there quicker and rescued all 29 before the rescue crew got there.

Get real Duncan.

[clips]

get this mine tamed, running and profitable for the people of the coast..... don;t lose 29 men and then admit defeat..

[mouse]

Yeah right. And where would these miners come from? Greymouth, Reefton, Blackball Hilton perhaps. If they hurried they might get there, kitted out, charge in with no idea what was inside the mine in ...say 4 hours. Of course the tea lady and typist from the mine office might have got there quicker and rescued all 29 before the rescue crew got there.

Get real Duncan.
Part of the enquiry must be why there was no rescue attempt immedately after the explosion. How did Pike get the advice of an explosion, was there a Rescue Party that could be assembled in quick order, was there transport for the rescue party to get into the mine without delay? Since because of the extreme isolation of Pike, they have to be self contained for an emergency.

[mouse]

get this mine tamed, running and profitable for the people of the coast..... don;t lose 29 men and then admit defeat..
Amen.......

[sheepy]

How can the second blast be bigger than the first, we all saw what the first blast did to the top of the ventalation shaft and surrounding trees. Yet the second just puffed out some smoke. All trivial stuff, Peter Whittal is a great frontman, and I hope the mine can get back on its feet. I am sure it will continue in. Be intreasting to hear the story from the 2 survivors that made it out last. Also intreasting. aussie coal mine getting a bit of attention ccc continental coal. Diggers and drillers are recomending it at the moment. I shouldnt say that, save your pennys for pikes next capital raising.

[Sideshow Bob]

On a couple of points.

Peter Whittall was on Close Up tonight and Mike Hosking asked the question about should be be an open cast mine. I think Peter's words were absolutely not with the topography. While some of the coal was 100-120m below ground, other areas was 500-600 metres. While open cast had its place, it certainly wasn't the case here.

Also the ventalation shaft and the track. Below is the story about guys near the main ventilation shaft which the bore shafts were close to. No track.....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10690297

Pike mine: 'We had time to run like hell'
By Lee Scanlon of the Westport News 6:01 PM Friday Nov 26, 2010 Share5 Email
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The entrance to the Pike River Coal. Photo / APN Shrink
The entrance to the Pike River Coal. Photo / APNA Westport man has told how he and three others ran for their lives when the Pike River Coal mine exploded at 2.37pm on Wednesday.

The explosion shattered hopes the 29 men trapped underground by a blast six days earlier could have survived.

Gary Bainbridge said he, two other employees of Solid Energy's Stockton mine, and a Pike electrician, were the closest people to the second blast.

They had spent about four hours taking gas samples from a 600mm diameter mineshaft, on a ridge in bush 50 metres from the main ventilation shaft.
Mr Bainbridge, 65, said they were waiting about five metres from the smaller shaft for a helicopter pick-up when they heard a roar.

"It sounded like a huge jet coming. We just had time to get out of it, just run like hell...It was all just split second stuff."

They had sprinted 10 metres down the ridge when an "enormous boom" blasted smoke from the two vents, blotting out the sky.

"I just know nobody could survive that second one (explosion)," Mr Bainbridge said. "You had to be there to realise it."

Article continues below

The air, which had smelled of burning since they arrived two days earlier, filled with soot.

The mine base radioed to check they were safe, then they evacuated the ridge.

"We let them know we were safe and we let them know where we were going."

Pike also evacuated everyone else off the hill, Mr Bainbridge said.

The explosive gas fumes meant a helicopter could no longer fly in to collect them, so the four men lugged their gear down a creek to a clearing."We had quite a monstrous struggle with our equipment, which we managed to salvage. We left a wee bit on the hill. It was quite awkward - scanning equipment, control box, computer, plus our personal gear - packs and stuff."A helicopter arrived a couple of hours later and flew them back to base. "I've never seen so many people so happy to see us."

The second explosion vindicated the decision not to send rescue teams in to bring out the 29 trapped miners and contractors, said Mr Bainbridge, a former mines rescuer with 30 years mines rescue experience.

"To me, they made the right decision. Absolutely."

He and Westport's Trevor Shepherd, John Taylor and Allen Morris had been at Pike mine since Monday sampling and analysing gases. The men are members of Solid Energy's Millerton underground investigation team.

Mr Bainbridge said they and their equipment were still available anytime Pike needed them.

- NZPA

[friedegg]

whose the insurer for $100m?
once that payment is through you may get a special divi?,can the mine and turn the facilities already there into an eco tourism hotel for tourists maybe or adventure tourism?
bet ya many people would pay to run the pike tunnel and survive it for $200 and a photo

[bung5]

whose the insurer for $100m?
once that payment is through you may get a special divi?,can the mine and turn the facilities already there into an eco tourism hotel for tourists maybe or adventure tourism?
bet ya many people would pay to run the pike tunnel and survive it for $200 and a photo

its hard to tell if that is a joke?

[the machine]

at the agm I went to today the chairman held 1 minutes silence before the meeting started.

M

[Monkey Poms]

Monkey Poms, the PRC mine when the first blast hit was only at the beginning of its development. The existing ventilation system would have been designed to cope with methane leakage for at least a decade into the mine's life. With the mine in its current state of development, the ventilation system would be gigantically over engineered for the task at hand, which would back up your 'roaring wind tunnel' anecdote. Talk that there should have been more ventilation holes up to the surface, the non existence of which has been blamed on DOC policy is I think is spurious in the context of when this accident happened in relation to the life of the mine. I think your point that something out of the ordinary happened is the only rational interpretation of the facts as we know them.
if the power failed and the ventilation shut down, there should have been enough time for those miners to proceed to one of the safe chambers while just one or two worked on getting the ventilation system restarted. The unlikely combination of all of the miners in each of the three working gang sites having simultaneous failure of their on the spot warning equipment leads me to conclude that what happened must have been very sudden and unexpected.

The ventilation system would have had 'design performance criteria' based on the rate of noxious gas emission based around the average natural leakage rate for gases as known to occur in that type of mine. It would also have had a built in safety factor that I suspect would have allowed it to extract gas around five times faster than any build up of gas would occur on average. I guess it is possible that some pocket of gas formed because of the particular layout of those underground tunnels. It is also possible some underground source of methane was suddenly unleashed that swamped any normal leakage by an order of magnitude that went way outside the design criteria of the ventilation system. However, while those are possibilities human error is also a possibility. Perhaps when the power went down and the lights went out, one of the greener miners simply lit up a fag in a 'safe' area of the mine? We just don't know and may never know.


SNOOPY

Hi Snoopy. I have no doubts regarding the efficiency of the fan system driving mine ventilation. At the time of my post it appeared questions were asked over the efficiency of the ventilation system.

When I saw a quote from an ex miner, who expressed an opinion of being in a wind tunnel, it was good news to me, as it should have eased any doubts expressed at the time.

It is unfortunate that you took my quote as a criticism rather than a plus factor.

Monkey Poms.

[fungus pudding]

at the agm I went to today the chairman held 1 minutes silence before the meeting started.

M

You'd almost expect the whole crowd to join in.

[brucey09]

Snrs.
please make no mistake of the quality of the man NOW leading our company - he looks the best for the job for me

[skid]

Crickey! I cant believe that after a 3RD explosion that"noone could have survived'',we are still getting the ''should have rushed
in''argument. I wonder if some day we will see pike river under the CSG heading

[fungus pudding]

Crickey! I cant believe that after a 3RD explosion that"noone could have survived'',we are still getting the ''should have rushed
in''argument. I wonder if some day we will see pike river under the CSG heading

The theory being that after an explosion there will not be another for at least several hours until sufficient build-up of gas levels. So these explosions days after are irrelevant to the argument. It's far from a foregone conclusion, and obviously dependant on a huge number of variables, but the 'should have rushed in' proponents will be spouting their mantra from the safety of their bar-stools for years to come.

[Balance]

The theory being that after an explosion there will not be another for at least several hours until sufficient build-up of gas levels. So these explosions days after are irrelevant to the argument. It's far from a foregone conclusion, and obviously dependant on a huge number of variables, but the 'should have rushed in' proponents will be spouting their mantra from the safety of their bar-stools for years to come.

Tell that to the families left fatherless, husbandless. brotherless or sonless by the second explosion which sealed their fate.

29 miners died and there was no attempt made at rescuing them for the first 4 days before the second explosion.

Reminds me of the South Auckland Navtej Singh killing where the Police stood at a very safe distance for 31 vital minutes before allowing an ambulance to go through.

The killers may still be there, see? And it is too dangerous to allow our well trained brave Policemen (with their bullet proof vests and firearms) to venture into the killing zone until they are sure the scene is very safe!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/opinion/columnists/karl-du-fresne/3745983/Bungled-police-response-appals

[digger]

Crickey! I cant believe that after a 3RD explosion that"noone could have survived'',we are still getting the ''should have rushed
in''argument. I wonder if some day we will see pike river under the CSG heading

I am very much in the should have rushed in crowd if it must be put that way. After a gas explosion there is a good day before another one will have enought volumn build up for the risk to be too great. That opportunity should be taken for the families and the future. Here i think we have not discussed enought the future.If no effort is every made because it is not 100% safe it will remove hope not only for trapped miner and there families but for miner recrutiment in the future.It also shows of timid spirit---a disgrace to our forfather who came to NZ when it was not 100% safe to do so.The 24 hour window should have been taken.

[shasta]

I am very much in the should have rushed in crowd if it must be put that way. After a gas explosion there is a good day before another one will have enought volumn build up for the risk to be too great. That opportunity should be taken for the families and the future. Here i think we have not discussed enought the future.If no effort is every made because it is not 100% safe it will remove hope not only for trapped miner and there families but for miner recrutiment in the future.It also shows of timid spirit---a disgrace to our forfather who came to NZ when it was not 100% safe to do so.The 24 hour window should have been taken.

Has anyone got any idea on what the temperatures would have been like after the explosions, surely the mine was unstable even during this "supposed" opportunity to enter.

The mere fact there has been an ignition source in the mine still after 2 explosions, must surely highlight the fact another explosion could have occured at any time.

I saw a picture on TV3 of the Strongbow mine still smouldering away in the background, very surreal

[root]

Has anyone got any idea on what the temperatures would have been like after the explosions, surely the mine was unstable even during this "supposed" opportunity to enter.

The mere fact there has been an ignition source in the mine still after 2 explosions, must surely highlight the fact another explosion could have occured at any time.

I saw a picture on TV3 of the Strongbow mine still smouldering away in the background, very surreal

Autoignition temperature of methane is over 500 Deg C so the temperature after an explosion is not the issue.

Are there any ignition sources?
What is the rate of release of the flammable gas?
When and where will the mixture of flammable gas and air that is between the Lower Flammable Limit and the Upper Flammable Limit meet with any potential ignition sources?

Very hard questions to answer, you would just be rolling the dice. IMHO.

[mouse]

I am very much in the should have rushed in crowd if it must be put that way. After a gas explosion there is a good day before another one will have enought volumn build up for the risk to be too great. That opportunity should be taken for the families and the future. Here i think we have not discussed enought the future.If no effort is every made because it is not 100% safe it will remove hope not only for trapped miner and there families but for miner recrutiment in the future.It also shows of timid spirit---a disgrace to our forfather who came to NZ when it was not 100% safe to do so.The 24 hour window should have been taken.
They should have gone in within half an hour of the first blast. Looking at the video of the mine entrance, first blast, the rag indicated gases rushing out, then stopping, reversing, and air rushing into the mine. So there was the probability that it was safe to go in immediately. Plus get out within a short time. Say a couple of hours or even longer. The opportunity was lost. Possibly because Pike did not have emergency staff ready to go in. It has to be solved for future mining problems. I do not know if a 24 hour window was available, but certainly there was a window for rescue.

[blockhead]

In hindsight that may have been possible but with 29 people in there in unknown condition who knows what might have been achieved, would only take one area of irrespirable atmosphere in there and the rescuers would have been piling up in a heap to add to the 29.

Hopefully the investigations from here will answer some of these questions, there has to be a lot learned from this

[Catalyst]

Where did this 24hr window come from?

On May 8 2010 a Russian coal mine exploded due to methane gas build-up. 3 1/2 hours later a second explosion occured in the mine, killing 30-odd rescuers who had rushed in after the first explosion. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37040598/ns/world_news-europe/

Pike may or may not have had a window for rescue in this instance, but they didn't have any way of immediately assessing the atmosheric conditions underground and no one was immediately available to rescue anyone, other than the two that escaped.

[fish]

Where did this 24hr window come from?

On May 8 2010 a Russian coal mine exploded due to methane gas build-up. 3 1/2 hours later a second explosion occured in the mine, killing 30-odd rescuers who had rushed in after the first explosion. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37040598/ns/world_news-europe/

Pike may or may not have had a window for rescue in this instance, but they didn't have any way of immediately assessing the atmosheric conditions underground and no one was immediately available to rescue anyone, other than the two that escaped.

Thanks catalyst -that link shows how ignorant some of the posts have been -not least to mention Duncans .
It looks to me as if we need to take advice from the australians as to how to reduce the danger of methane explosions .

[shasta]

Where did this 24hr window come from?

On May 8 2010 a Russian coal mine exploded due to methane gas build-up. 3 1/2 hours later a second explosion occured in the mine, killing 30-odd rescuers who had rushed in after the first explosion. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37040598/ns/world_news-europe/

Pike may or may not have had a window for rescue in this instance, but they didn't have any way of immediately assessing the atmosheric conditions underground and no one was immediately available to rescue anyone, other than the two that escaped.

Brillant, you answered my question, i wasnt aware of the Russian incident!

[Monkey Poms]

Where did this 24hr window come from?

On May 8 2010 a Russian coal mine exploded due to methane gas build-up. 3 1/2 hours later a second explosion occured in the mine, killing 30-odd rescuers who had rushed in after the first explosion. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37040598/ns/world_news-europe/

Pike may or may not have had a window for rescue in this instance, but they didn't have any way of immediately assessing the atmosheric conditions underground and no one was immediately available to rescue anyone, other than the two that escaped.

Catalyst.It would have been a hard one to call at the time with all the confusion, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Monkey Poms.

[Oiler]

Autoignition temperature of methane is over 500 Deg C so the temperature after an explosion is not the issue.

Are there any ignition sources?
What is the rate of release of the flammable gas?
When and where will the mixture of flammable gas and air that is between the Lower Flammable Limit and the Upper Flammable Limit meet with any potential ignition sources?

Very hard questions to answer, you would just be rolling the dice. IMHO.

I agree Root. :t_up:

We have a rule "Never risk your life to save another person" I know it sounds rather callous but never the less they are very true words. Now is not the time to armchair diagnosing what should havecould have been done.

The facts will all come out in due course. Lets not tamper with the evidence :ohmy:

[Kees]

I am glad that not everyone thinks as you do we would have no heroes only people that would make sure they were a 100 % safe before acting .



We have a rule "Never risk your life to save another person

[duncan macgregor]

The simple fact of the matter is, the miners had a slight chance if the correct proceedures had taken place. They had no chance with the shambles that did take place. Rescue drills with who does what in fires, and other accidents in locations such as this, are worked out in advance of the unlikely event. We had sea rescue rules here in NZ that the rescuer was not allowed to go to sea until given permission to do so. My mate a commercial fisherman has rescued and on the way home with the other boat when tow, and behold he was told he was allowed to go. To much PC bull in this country my friends, this is an example of idiots in charge of other peoples lives, giving them no chance at all. They have a few hours after a first explosion, then after that it becomes to dangerous. Might have done no good, but then a slight chance is better than no chance at all. Macdunk

[brucey09]

Snrs.
All this going in talk may be in vain. With such big blasting all the way may be blockage anyways.

[digger]

Snrs.
All this going in talk may be in vain. With such big blasting all the way may be blockage anyways.

So in the first 24 hours you go in with all the gear and if the way is blocked or otherwise established too dangerious you turn around and go back out again.Remember two miners walked out with no help and in a state of shock.The rescures would have been in a state of readness and aware of the dangers.
Before the days of OSH and PC rescures were always taking place.My family history in the last 100 years and more shows many mine succesful resuces and no rescures being lost but and rescures did in fact go in when the situation was not 100% safe.
My fathers brother died in a rock fall and others were saved when rock was still falling by other miners. In the last fifty years my brothers have several times saved others when the situation was far from safe. In fact this PIKE claytons rescue is the only non starter i have ever heard of or indirectly connected with my family,the connection here is that i have a small holding in PIKE.
My strong feeling here is that NZ lost far more than 29 miners.It has lost the pioneering spirit that is assoicated with the never say die .This has been replaced with a timid attitude engineered by OSH and PC. We have also lost the future.To miners the thought that all possible will be done to save miners if necessary is in the miners physology. That is now been sold away by PC and a hand sitting policy.
To me we have lost much much more than 29 miners.If this PC and OSH attitude takes over completely we have lost the future.We have lost everything that is not 100% safe and that is everything.

[fungus pudding]

Snrs.
All this going in talk may be in vain. With such big blasting all the way may be blockage anyways.

And it is very likely that taking the extreme risk of entering the mine would have only allowed them to recover bodies. There is little likelihood anyone survived the first blast, which I'm sure the powers that be knew, but wasn't made obvious until they released the footage of the explosion forces exiting the tunnel. They were in a no win situation - if they had announced 'we're not going in yet because they are all dead' there would have been an uproar.

[Balance]

And it is very likely that taking the extreme risk of entering the mine would have only allowed them to recover bodies. There is little likelihood anyone survived the first blast, which I'm sure the powers that be knew, but wasn't made obvious until they released the footage of the explosion forces exiting the tunnel. They were in a no win situation - if they had announced 'we're not going in yet because they are all dead' there would have been an uproar.

Write and say what you want. This is what NZ is about these days :

http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/opinion/columnists/karl-du-fresne/3745983/Bungled-police-response-appals

Highly trained and equipped personnel standing in a safe distance until it's very safe for THEM, not the victims.

[Flea]

Interesting interview with John Key this morning on Q+A confirms his intention to request a royal commission of enquiry. This may take up to a year by the sound of it, they drew parallels to the Upper Big Bear mine explosion in April which is still a few months from completion. The future of the mine is in the hands of the enquiry now. I'm curious to understand if the trading halt will go on for this long?

[Hoop]

Public's rescue ideas absurd (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10690522)byKerre Woodham (Herald on Sunday columnist)

Quotes from her Article....".....some truly bizarre suggestions through talkback and online forums all week. The most common one was that it was "PC gone mad" that rescuers were holding off from rushing into the mine. The (mostly) men who commented online were all for the Colonel Custer type of action - ....."

"...These were blokes who yearned to wear their undies on the outside of their trousers and play Superman for a day....."

This Kerre Woodham person writes a lot of twoddle:t_down:....we all know that Scots don't wear undies.

Disc: own PRC shares

[ggreenlees]

The proposed Royal Commission of Inquiry:

1) completely depends on its 'terms of reference'.

The Royal Commissions can be very dangerous from a government's point of view, they can get right out of control. They are chaired by a (retired judge ...) Commissioner who, maybe for the first time in their professional lives, are truly in the driver's seat ...

Our forum should note carefully both who the Commissioner(s) is/are, and the flavour and tightness of the terms of reference.

Logically being a National government, its intent is to go to a very high level to fully study and set up legislation that changes the balance between the extraction vs. the conservation industries.

2) The operation of the Mahon Commission did not pause Air New Zealand's operation at all. PRC seem to be signalling an admirable independence and correct determination to run their own inquiry, proceed towards a rational assessment of our assets, and appear clear headed in dealing day to day with their regulators.

I guess a lot of the anti 'PC' feelings around the rescue/recovery are completely natural; we are still a righteous and spontaneous nation who proudly defy odds to help our brothers in need. The frustrating rescue process is possibly explained, in the owners' and surviving employees' favour, in two words: in surance.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

And will they crucify the judge if he does not give them the answer they want. (Remember the orchestrated litany of lies) as an answer from a judge in charge of one.

[Kees]

The simple fact of the matter is, the miners had a slight chance if the correct proceedures had taken place. They had no chance with the shambles that did take place. Rescue drills with who does what in fires, and other accidents in locations such as this, are worked out in advance of the unlikely event. We had sea rescue rules here in NZ that the rescuer was not allowed to go to sea until given permission to do so. My mate a commercial fisherman has rescued and on the way home with the other boat when tow, and behold he was told he was allowed to go. To much PC bull in this country my friends, this is an example of idiots in charge of other peoples lives, giving them no chance at all. They have a few hours after a first explosion, then after that it becomes to dangerous. Might have done no good, but then a slight chance is better than no chance at all. Macdunk

It is better to have tried and failed than to never have tried at all'

[kura]

And will they crucify the judge if he does not give them the answer they want. (Remember the orchestrated litany of lies) as an answer from a judge in charge of one.

Gee, I recall those words, and I said to myself back then "what a great use of the english language ! " But can't recall details of outcome, other than judge being badmouthed.

[Sideshow Bob]

It is better to have tried and failed than to never have tried at all'

But is it better to have tried and have another 16 people dead than never having tried at all??

This is all pointless debate now, as 29 men are dead. I belive that they were probably dead after the initial blast and the police did the right thing. Imagine the witch hunt if they had sent the mine rescue in and the thing blew up??

Hopefully the inquiry is not a snow job and all the details come out.

[shasta]

Write and say what you want. This is what NZ is about these days :

http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/opinion/columnists/karl-du-fresne/3745983/Bungled-police-response-appals

Highly trained and equipped personnel standing in a safe distance until it's very safe for THEM, not the victims.

The 29 miners died in vain doing there job, i agree with Fungus, they were all likely dead on Friday (otherwise why didnt they try & walk out if the mine settled enough for them to make it)

Having a bunch of cowboys running into the mine in a half arsed rescue & dying isnt heroic, its stupidity

I cant fathom the ridiculousness of some posters, who don't know what the mine environment was at the time, or what really happened. (No one does yet!)

Remember the Police were in charge of the rescue mission, but took advice from "mining experts" NOT to go into the mine

I'm happy that the people making the decisions during a very emotive time knew more than anyone posting in here


Edit: News of a 4th explosion at the mine

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10690665

[Balance]

The 29 miners died in vain doing there job, i agree with Fungus, they were all likely dead on Friday (otherwise why didnt they try & walk out if the mine settled enough for them to make it)

Having a bunch of cowboys running into the mine in a half arsed rescue & dying isnt heroic, its stupidity

I cant fathom the ridiculousness of some posters, who don't know what the mine environment was at the time, or what really happened. (No one does yet!)

Remember the Police were in charge of the rescue mission, but took advice from "mining experts" NOT to go into the mine

I'm happy that the people making the decisions during a very emotive time knew more than anyone posting in here


Edit: News of a 4th explosion at the mine

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10690665

Because they were concussed and needed help. Doh!

Say what you want and write what you will - answer this one - http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/opinion/columnists/karl-du-fresne/3745983/Bungled-police-response-appals

You better hope you are not a victim one of these days and need the highly trained and equipped police force. Their safety first - obviously.

[Capitalist]

Stephen Franks has an interesting post which you may agree with Balance.

The law must also restore the ancient liberty that allows individuals to choose to be noble for others even if it seems foolish. The Police should have no right to prevent any of us from exercising a fully informed choice to risk our own lives for another.

Link: http://www.stephenfranks.co.nz/?p=3076

[fish]

This mine is an automatic reloading cannon .
Hopefully the jet engine will fill it with carbon dioxide and water vapour to put out the fuse and dampen the ammo . Then we hopefully should be able to retrieve the bodies `.

[neopoleII]

i spoke to an australian mine owner this weekend, he is a friend of mine. he said that the concussion in the mine would of killed them instantly. when you have an explosion in a confined space the compression is absolutely intense, this is why internal combustion engines are so good, or for that matter a bullet leaving a gun barrel.
humans are pretty soft things, the fact that the little rag got blown about 2.5 kms away from the detonation point should explain everything.
also, if there were survivors, why didnt they walk out, crawl out, drove out, bang on steel pipes to signal?
its a very sad thing that happened.

[Kees]

2 of them did

[blockhead]

Seemingly there is "large volumes" of smoke and flame coming from the mine now, its getting more difficult by the day

[Reeves]

Forth explosion today has been described by police as much bigger than the others, and has caused significant damage. Smoke and flames coming out of the top of the shaft with a coal fire visible from the air. http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/fire-in-mine-sets-back-recovery-plans-3921782.
Sounds like it is getting worse by the day. With this latest news and John Key talking about a royal commission of inquiry it is hard to see a short-medium term future for PRC

[bob.not.a.builder]

Coal fire has complicated things so much now. Hopefully it is not too bad and can be put out quickly.
Seems more like a mining operation now.

[Sideshow Bob]

If we burn all of the coal, do we have to buy carbon credits for it................

[Kees]

If we burn all of the coal, do we have to buy carbon credits for it................

we will have to convene a royal inquiry first or be 100% sure and while they are talking to the experts pike burns.

[arjay]

A coal fire? where is it drawing all the oxygen from? Not from the entrance surely....

[Monkey Poms]

A coal fire? where is it drawing all the oxygen from? Not from the entrance surely....

Arjay that is exactly where the oxygen is coming from,they need to block it and block it NOW.

Monkey Poms.

[mouse]

Arjay that is exactly where the oxygen is coming from,they need to block it and block it NOW.

Monkey Poms.
Things are not so bad as described. We have a Graben! So we have the fire which is doing well and feeding from the coal in the area between the mine entrance and the graben. I do not know how much it is, but the point is, the whole of the mine is not on fire. We must of course block the entrance and if it was possible pour water down the chimney. Comment please Monkey Poms?

[bob.not.a.builder]

Is methane still a present danger? With a significant coal fire surely this would ignite the methane in the area.

[blockhead]

IMHO having a fire going down the mine may keep the methane levels low, it will consume the gas as it is omitted, the danger exists though when pockets of gas form just around the next bend in the mine, when they ignite it can be explosion time again.

Mouse your idea of pouring water down the chimney to extinguish the fire was a joke I hope, where would the massive supply of water come from to apply it from the top of the chimney, remember the mine is on a sloping tunnel, where do you think the water would all go ? down to the entrance of course, by the time it backed up to the working face there would be substantial water force at the tunnel entrance, I havent checked the elevation from entrance to coal face but if you know how many metres it is just multiply it by 10 to get an idea of the kpa at the bottom.

I am sure given different circumstances the postulations on here would provide great humour for those working in the mine.

[fungus pudding]

I am sure given different circumstances the postulations on here would provide great humour for those working in the mine.

Wouldn't even come close to some views offered on talkback radio. Best idea was having emergency supplies for anyone trapped - including sleeping bags and a primus.

[digger]

Now that a Royal commission has been fromally approved by the govt to look into the causes of the Pike River mine tradagy,headed by Judge Graham Panckhurst i think we should all not comment further on this matter.So i at least will be saying nothing more in this regard. And best of luck with the commission as they will be up against a sea of buck passing.
The future if any of PIKE depends on the commission getting to the cause of this sorry affair.

[RenHoek]

Current worth of PRC as a company.
Very crude breakdown / estimation. Please give me your thoughts.

PRC = 405,513,933 total shares issued. ( on NZX and ASZ )
$100,000,000 insurance policy
$18,000,000 debt to NZOG

worst case assuming total mine writeoff..... $10,000,000 in assets? ( sale of equipment etc... )

so... PRC total assets ~= $92,000,000

$92,000,000 / 405,513,933 shares ~= 22c a share


Is this a correct calculation?
There's ~400M total public shares issued. Does this represent the private shares too?
Are assets divided over this number, or over a much larger number which represents public+private shares?

Thanks all!
Ren

[percy]

Ren,
You have made no provision for legal fees,for lawyers to represent PRC management and directors.

[winner69]

Current worth of PRC as a company.
Very crude breakdown / estimation. Please give me your thoughts.

PRC = 405,513,933 total shares issued. ( on NZX and ASZ )
$100,000,000 insurance policy
$18,000,000 debt to NZOG

worst case assuming total mine writeoff..... $10,000,000 in assets? ( sale of equipment etc... )

so... PRC total assets ~= $92,000,000

$92,000,000 / 405,513,933 shares ~= 22c a share


Is this a correct calculation?
There's ~400M total public shares issued. Does this represent the private shares too?
Are assets divided over this number, or over a much larger number which represents public+private shares?

Thanks all!
Ren

I think NZOG are owed more than $18m which take priority over shareholders. The working capital facility is $25m and don't they have some $40m of bonds

And the BNZ is up for a fair bit

PRC have $100m cover (with various 'sub-limits)but whether they get this amount is another story .... as the guy said today claiming is a 'complicated process'

And worst case whats left would be shared among the 405m shares outstanding

[blackcap]

Which NZ insurance company could pay out 100m?

[RenHoek]

Which NZ insurance company could pay out 100m?

This document makes mention to them as "international insurers"
=> http://www.pike.co.nz/files/news_releases/Update_from_Pike_River_Coal_Ltd.pdf

[fungus pudding]

Which NZ insurance company could pay out 100m?

Any who would take on that policy on their own. Which NZ companies could pay the premium?

[nwood]

My understanding is the insurance policy is with 'Lloyd's of London'

[peat]

coming out of suspension soon?

thats what Craigs said.

[Unicorn]

Current worth of PRC as a company.
Very crude breakdown / estimation. Please give me your thoughts.

PRC = 405,513,933 total shares issued. ( on NZX and ASZ )
$100,000,000 insurance policy
$18,000,000 debt to NZOG

worst case assuming total mine writeoff..... $10,000,000 in assets? ( sale of equipment etc... )

so... PRC total assets ~= $92,000,000

$92,000,000 / 405,513,933 shares ~= 22c a share


Is this a correct calculation?
There's ~400M total public shares issued. Does this represent the private shares too?
Are assets divided over this number, or over a much larger number which represents public+private shares?

Thanks all!
Ren

Still very approximate, but somewhat closer than the figures you have presented ...

Assets ...
Insurance policy - somewhere between $0 and $100M
A bit of coal
Some plant

Liabilities ...
Debt - NZO - $25M
Bond - NZO - $38M
Debt - BNZ - $23M
ABM20 Lease $5M

The NZO funds should cover costs at least up to the end of this year.

After that there will be ...
Recovery Costs ???
Fines ???
Legal Costs ???
Other Costs???
Rehabilitation ???

Hard to see any value for shareholders ... unless the mine does get into production (which will mean more capital raising, and many other hurdles).

[duncan macgregor]

The company is worth nothing. on going paymwents to directors and other costs will wipe out any value if the mine fails to get going again, The questions remain, will they get sued,Will they get going again and at what cost. My guess is the company will be wound up. Macdunk

[Beagle]

Still very approximate, but somewhat closer than the figures you have presented ...

Assets ...
Insurance policy - somewhere between $0 and $100M
A bit of coal
Some plant

Liabilities ...
Debt - NZO - $25M
Bond - NZO - $38M
Debt - BNZ - $23M
ABM20 Lease $5M

The NZO funds should cover costs at least up to the end of this year.

After that there will be ...
Recovery Costs ???
Fines ???
Legal Costs ???
Other Costs???
Rehabilitation ???

Hard to see any value for shareholders ... unless the mine does get into production (which will mean more capital raising, and many other hurdles).

Have to agree and those figures look pretty accurate to me. Knowing a bit about how Insurance companies try and mitigate claims and after capitalised finance costs on BNZ and NZOG debts, legal and investigation costs and on-going management costs I find it impossible to imagine there's any value in the company at all.

I also find it hard to imagine the company operating again, and even if the mine can be put back into operational condition, at what cost, who will be brave enough to fund a major cash issue in the order of maybe $150m plus ? Maybe however there's hidden value in buying NZO shares where the market has written off the full value of their PRC investment and the loan advances as well !! Just maybe NZO might ultimatly recover some of the money advanced to PRC out of the insurance proceeds ? (See my post on the NZO thread).

[mouse]

IMHO having a fire going down the mine may keep the methane levels low, it will consume the gas as it is omitted, the danger exists though when pockets of gas form just around the next bend in the mine, when they ignite it can be explosion time again.

Mouse your idea of pouring water down the chimney to extinguish the fire was a joke I hope, where would the massive supply of water come from to apply it from the top of the chimney, remember the mine is on a sloping tunnel, where do you think the water would all go ? down to the entrance of course, by the time it backed up to the working face there would be substantial water force at the tunnel entrance, I havent checked the elevation from entrance to coal face but if you know how many metres it is just multiply it by 10 to get an idea of the kpa at the bottom.

I am sure given different circumstances the postulations on here would provide great humour for those working in the mine.
Over on the coast we have lots of water. Plus Pike have machines that pump the slurry pipeline. We do not need tons of water to put out a fire. You pour water on, the water turns to steam, starves the fire of oxygen and the fire is out. So you could fill the mine with water if you wanted. I cannot work in kpa. But in general, one foot height is half a pound pressure. So depends upon how high the bottom of the vent shaft is above the mine entrance. We have plenty of pipe to put the water up to the top of the mine entrance. Of course all ideas should be tried, but the fire itself is not serious at present due to the Graben. It is isolating the fire from the main body of the mine. I think. Other ideas of course welcome. The point is, we should not panic. Hopefully Govt will come to the party with cash to get the mine going again as well.

[mouse]

My understanding is the insurance policy is with 'Lloyd's of London'
My brother in UK was a 'name' at Lloyds. He also ran a small business and advertised for help. One African chap turned up. John said to him 'we dont employ Africans.' John was taken to the Thought Police and fined. Lloyds promptly told John, 'you are a Bounder and a Cad!' and promptly dismissed him as a name. Kicked out by Lloyds. Who within 12 months went broke. As did the names, down to their last cuff-link. So disasters are not all totally bad.

[bull....]

Current worth of PRC as a company.
Very crude breakdown / estimation. Please give me your thoughts.

PRC = 405,513,933 total shares issued. ( on NZX and ASZ )
$100,000,000 insurance policy
$18,000,000 debt to NZOG

worst case assuming total mine writeoff..... $10,000,000 in assets? ( sale of equipment etc... )

so... PRC total assets ~= $92,000,000

$92,000,000 / 405,513,933 shares ~= 22c a share


Is this a correct calculation?
There's ~400M total public shares issued. Does this represent the private shares too?
Are assets divided over this number, or over a much larger number which represents public+private shares?

Thanks all!
Ren

Insurance is to pay only the mine get repaired and associated costs not to payback NZO or S/H so not classed as asset.
Only way S/H get any money back if mine is reopened for business and they do big cash issue otherwise any investment in PRC is worthless now.

[digger]

Insurance is to pay only the mine get repaired and associated costs not to payback NZO or S/H so not classed as asset.
Only way S/H get any money back if mine is reopened for business and they do big cash issue otherwise any investment in PRC is worthless now.


Your sounding about right there Bull. I can not think of a case where insurance every just gives you the money to do what you like. The claim must always go to repairs or replacement,never just cash in hand.

[fish]

unless its loss income insrance digger-which is cash in hand

[Monkey Poms]

Things are not so bad as described. We have a Graben! So we have the fire which is doing well and feeding from the coal in the area between the mine entrance and the graben. I do not know how much it is, but the point is, the whole of the mine is not on fire. We must of course block the entrance and if it was possible pour water down the chimney. Comment please Monkey Poms?

Mouse. I have no personal experience on how to put a fire out in a mine, however I have plenty of experience of controlling fires in large stockpiles of coal. Totally different methods required in the way you go about tackling the fires.

As a frustrated armchair watcher of the situation, we need to stop the oxygen supply as soon as possible, at this stage, unless you want to destroy the mine, flooding it is a non starter. As a temporary measure you could use about 1500tonne of ex tunnel stone waste and use it to block the mine tunnel entrance, the operation could be completed in a couple of hours, and removed in even less time when we have a more sophisticated system in place. DOC approval may be required, (approval could take a month)

Monkey Poms.
3072

[skid]

Im sure all shareholders want to think the company still has some value...I guess the big question is are we willing to put more dosh in to get it running again? Ofcourse this is a complicated question,and in many ways we are still just gropeing for answers in the dark,but at some stage,mayby a bit down the line ,this is what it may well come to.
If there was a hudge meeting of shareholders ,Im very curious what the general concenses would be.

[fabs]

Quite a few issues arise now, almost all dependent on the time and conclusions of various investigations, when they can start and when they finish and what they trow up, so not only months, lets say a long time.
If anybody knows of an Ins.co. that pays out anything without waiting for results of above, let me know.
Loss of earnings is probably based on current F/Y s which is the net of the last shipment say 3 mil., not projected future earnings, question is for how long? probably not for a long time IMHO, so that wont go far. As for the $100 mil. if there is proven negligence or other mitigating issues again long wait and very lucky to get the full amount. In the meantime i do not have to go into the details of the quite substantial ongoing costs ,before they can safely enter the mine if ever plus restoration Like wise the $12mil that NZO under contractual or for altruistic reasons has pumped into a now virtually bankrupt and indebted co. will soon be gobbled up.
As a NZO S/H i feel the management has to make some very important decisions based on commercial realism, free of wishful thinking and sentimentality. PRC sadly as co. has reached the end of its original format and concept.
And yes both co.s are takeover candidates, i would value PRC. as virtually zero at best. NZO future now depends which way the management jumps, more money into the bottomless pit and consequent more losses to its S/H or cut your losses and concentrate on its core activity where it should have been in the first place.

[Crypto Crude]

duncan macgregor-The company is worth nothing


mack dunk eee pooh.... you piker,


The company wasnt worth nothing when you tipped it...
hehehehe...
:cool:
.^sc

[warthog]

My brother in UK was a 'name' at Lloyds. He also ran a small business and advertised for help. One African chap turned up. John said to him 'we dont employ Africans.'

On the face of it, this seems pretty unreasonable.

Are you making some connection between Lloyds not tolerating blatant racism and their financial performance? They made around £4bn from around £22bn turnover in 2009.

Or are you saying that not employing Africans is bad for business, or what?

[mouse]

On the face of it, this seems pretty unreasonable.

Are you making some connection between Lloyds not tolerating blatant racism and their financial performance? They made around £4bn from around £22bn turnover in 2009.

Or are you saying that not employing Africans is bad for business, or what?
The point is, disaster, in this case removing a pretty good earner where you could have your cash in the bank collecting interest and AT THE SAME TIME, get cash from Lloyds for no effort, may not be all bad. Lloyds went broke and the Lloyds of today is a different animal. Most Names lost their shirts. My brother, being a convicted Racist, kept both his shirt and house. Pretty good.
I am not saying this disaster is wonderful. But there are upsides.
You just need to look for them. I do not think that Pike is worthless. I would say 30 to 40 cents a share. I would say, wait for the take-over offers shortly.

[LJB]

The point is, disaster, in this case removing a pretty good earner where you could have your cash in the bank collecting interest and AT THE SAME TIME, get cash from Lloyds for no effort, may not be all bad. Lloyds went broke and the Lloyds of today is a different animal. Most Names lost their shirts. My brother, being a convicted Racist, kept both his shirt and house. Pretty good.
I am not saying this disaster is wonderful. But there are upsides.
You just need to look for them. I do not think that Pike is worthless. I would say 30 to 40 cents a share. I would say, wait for the take-over offers shortly.

Huh?? Don't get your anecdote.
Don't see any upside at any level. 29 dead. Shareprice at your estimation 30ish% of previous value. There won't be any serendipity out of this.