PRC Pike River Coal

[mouse]

Huh?? Don't get your anecdote.
Don't see any upside at any level. 29 dead. Shareprice at your estimation 30ish% of previous value. There won't be any serendipity out of this.
But the value is not nil.
The miners who have perished are of course a disaster for everyone. No upside to that.
But I am now trying to get Govt to approve Pike extracting all 58 million tonnes of it.
The catch is, will we be able to put out the fire? We have only dug out 60,000 tonnes of coal. So the volume of coal to have the fire put out may be small. We just have to wait.
Of course the most important job at present is to recover the miners down there.

[warthog]

Hopefully Govt will come to the party with cash to get the mine going again as well.

Why should the hog, a taxpayer, bail out this speculative venture for the sake of a few jobs? At best this will be a subsidy for new speculative investors. And why on earth shouldn't the next lot be (more?) reckless with the way they conduct the venture? Moral hazard!

[warthog]

The point is, disaster, in this case removing a pretty good earner where you could have your cash in the bank collecting interest and AT THE SAME TIME, get cash from Lloyds for no effort, may not be all bad. Lloyds went broke and the Lloyds of today is a different animal. Most Names lost their shirts. My brother, being a convicted Racist, kept both his shirt and house. Pretty good.

Not pretty good in the hog's books. No logical connection between your brother's racist beliefs/attitude and the Lloyds situation at all.

If anything, he owes considerable thanks whoever it was at Lloyds who was principled enough to call him out as a racist and requiring his departure from association.

[mouse]

Not pretty good in the hog's books. No logical connection between your brother's racist beliefs/attitude and the Lloyds situation at all.

If anything, he owes considerable thanks whoever it was at Lloyds who was principled enough to call him out as a racist and requiring his departure from association.

Yes, and being a Racist was the most profitable thing he has ever done! It was brilliant, the Nice People lost their shirt, house and cuff-links. My brother lost nothing, except a Nil Dividend from Lloyds and comment from people. He closed his company down afterwards by the way and so no-one was employed. African or Purple. The chap who was principled and required his departure was left with a higher bill, having lost one Name, than would have been the case if my brother was not thrown out. Further, it was nothing to do with Lloyds. So people who are 'principled' sometimes pay a bit for their principles.

[percy]

Bit surprised that posters could refer to anybody from Lloyds as being 'principled.' They should google lloyds history of fraud, before posting .!!!!
Names were lambs to the slaugter.Unlimited liability ruined them.

[rev]

29 dead, newish company with potential up in flames and we're talking cuff-links and 'names' at Lloyds?

Quality.

[upside_umop]

Doesn't look good.

Is it possible this will never get put out. I can only relate my coal burning experience to the old Yunca fire we had at home when I was little. We used to stoke it up, turn the dampeners right down (starving it of oxygen) and then in the morning open them up and away she would roar again.

Is PRC mine just like the scenario above, but on a much grander scale?

You also have to look at Underground Coal Gasification, where they gasify the coal in the ground but in some instances have no way of controlling it even when starving it of oxygen.

Just being skeptical and semi-arm chairing. Here's hoping though.

[Lion]

Like you, upside down, and many, I am no expert. But I will say, I think the Pike mine may be different from the Yunca in that it is possible to completely starve the mine fire of oxygen and so put it out. The Yunca always had a small vent to keep it going. And at Pike they should be able to flood the mine with inert gases with the GAG, to further help put out the fire. I just hope another explosion doesn't blast the GAG machine though.
So may unanswered questions right now. Whittal seems keen to get the mine back into action though.
What a disaster.

[friedegg]

so as at the mine blast date 19/11/2010 they had 20 thousand tonnes,they sure looked on track to get 60 thou out by year end,or early jan

[mouse]

29 dead, newish company with potential up in flames and we're talking cuff-links and 'names' at Lloyds?

Quality.
No, it is an example of how a calamity can turn out to be of some benefit. Posters here are saying Pike has nil value. I do not agree. I am sure that we can get the mine going again. The loss of life, not just of miners but contractors too, is appalling. I was talking to some on the afternoon shift on the Monday afternoon at the AGM. I am personally really upset.
But Pike has value. How much we do not know. I would imagine that we can at least start cleaning up after the miners are recovered. There may be a cash call and I am quite willing to put in more cash. Note we are also helped by the 'graben', which we thought was a disaster, and also by the fact that only a small amount of coal has been mined. Which is another disaster that is to our benefit in that it makes saving the mine much easier. Also note that my holding is only small, 10,000 shares for which I have paid about $6,000. I can afford to lose that amount.

[David Chancer]

I agree. The mine must still have enormous asset value in people and equipment and, for the cost of a state of the art gas detection system, surely must have potential.
I would put more money in as soon as the existing disaster has been fully analysed by the appropriate mining, safety, planning and financial people. No need to wait for the outcome of a government enquiry.

[root]

Does anyone know if the mining concession for the Brunner Seam has any value for PRC, that is assuming they don't start up the mine again.

[Oiler]

I agree. The mine must still have enormous asset value in people and equipment and, for the cost of a state of the art gas detection system, surely must have potential.
I would put more money in as soon as the existing disaster has been fully analysed by the appropriate mining, safety, planning and financial people. No need to wait for the outcome of a government enquiry.

Well put DC. I am not a holder but I could be.... as you say "I would put more money in as soon as the existing disaster has been fully analysed by the appropriate mining, safety, planning and financial people. No need to wait for the outcome of a government enquiry."

[neopoleII]

when this disaster is all sorted out and the tunnel is clear and new ventilation is installed....... which all has to be done, then there will be value in the mine.
whether prc is able to continue or not is for greater people than me, but the fact is....... there is a very expensive tunnel intersecting a very large pile of high grade coking coal with all external infrastructure still in place.... this along is worth a fortune, so either someone else buys it, or prc shareholders fork in more cash and carry on.
i think nzo is way undervalue.

[root]

when this disaster is all sorted out and the tunnel is clear and new ventilation is installed....... which all has to be done, then there will be value in the mine.
whether prc is able to continue or not is for greater people than me, but the fact is....... there is a very expensive tunnel intersecting a very large pile of high grade coking coal with all external infrastructure still in place.... this along is worth a fortune, so either someone else buys it, or prc shareholders fork in more cash and carry on.
i think nzo is way undervalue.

I hope you're right N2, it sounds like the Coasters are keen. Just need to put the fire out.

[fish]

For the mine to be re-opened clearly the methane needs to be extracted . This happens in Australia and is called coal mining methane -cmm .
CBM and CMM are generally used as either a fed for pipeline gas or as a fuel for on-site electric power generation. Pipeline gas is supplied to regional centres and cities for such uses as power generation, industrial facilities and mains gas for home heating, cooking and hot water. Water is produced as a by-product of CBM production and after treatment this water may be suitable for use as town water supply, industrial facilities (eg coal mines and abattoirs), feedlots and high-value horticultural development. Other untreated CBM water use options include aquaculture, recharging aquifers, habitat creation (eg wetlands) and recreation (eg sailing, boating, picnic spots).
Now we have a power line connecting prc to the grid -would it not be a good idea to build a small power station to generate electricity from the methame,reduce greenhouse gases and make the mine safe and also more economic ,
An alternative is to pipe the gas away-and have a remote power station .
I have no idea if this is feasible and welcome more expertise to comment .

[digger]

For the mine to be re-opened clearly the methane needs to be extracted . This happens in Australia and is called coal mining methane -cmm .
CBM and CMM are generally used as either a fed for pipeline gas or as a fuel for on-site electric power generation. Pipeline gas is supplied to regional centres and cities for such uses as power generation, industrial facilities and mains gas for home heating, cooking and hot water. Water is produced as a by-product of CBM production and after treatment this water may be suitable for use as town water supply, industrial facilities (eg coal mines and abattoirs), feedlots and high-value horticultural development. Other untreated CBM water use options include aquaculture, recharging aquifers, habitat creation (eg wetlands) and recreation (eg sailing, boating, picnic spots).
Now we have a power line connecting prc to the grid -would it not be a good idea to build a small power station to generate electricity from the methame,reduce greenhouse gases and make the mine safe and also more economic ,
An alternative is to pipe the gas away-and have a remote power station .
I have no idea if this is feasible and welcome more expertise to comment .

Very good thoughts Fish.Certainly the gas has to be removed to make the mine safe and as you say why not try to do so at a profit.I would say it will be well into next year before we get a handle on what is likely to happen.And maybe 6 months to a year before the Royal commission has released its results. We will need them to move forward.
I certainly hope the mine is able to get back up and carry on,but without saying it has to be under a new format.

[friedegg]

For the mine to be re-opened clearly the methane needs to be extracted . This happens in Australia and is called coal mining methane -cmm .
CBM and CMM are generally used as either a fed for pipeline gas or as a fuel for on-site electric power generation. Pipeline gas is supplied to regional centres and cities for such uses as power generation, industrial facilities and mains gas for home heating, cooking and hot water. Water is produced as a by-product of CBM production and after treatment this water may be suitable for use as town water supply, industrial facilities (eg coal mines and abattoirs), feedlots and high-value horticultural development. Other untreated CBM water use options include aquaculture, recharging aquifers, habitat creation (eg wetlands) and recreation (eg sailing, boating, picnic spots).
Now we have a power line connecting prc to the grid -would it not be a good idea to build a small power station to generate electricity from the methame,reduce greenhouse gases and make the mine safe and also more economic ,
An alternative is to pipe the gas away-and have a remote power station .
I have no idea if this is feasible and welcome more expertise to comment .
they were going to do this,it was in one of the earlier reports,the contract for power via the normal grid was for only about 5 years

[Robomo]

Collecting the methane prior to mining certainly appeals. PRC coal is 'gassy' so plenty of methane there. Collecting coal seam gas involves a process of drilling and dewatering to force the gas out, then collecting and compressing it (thus CNG - Compressed Natural Gas - as available in Australia for vehicle fuel).
There has already been a lot of horizontal drilling through the Brunner seam to assess the state of the coal seam so it could well be expanded to actually collecting the gas. It would certainly be worth PRC management asking a CSG engineer about the possibilities.
Collecting the gas would have the twin advantages of reducing gas, thus improving safety, and then using the gas to generate local electricity. Thirdly, the methane would then not be vented to the atmosphere, thus saving the planet as well. I can't imagine that there would be any great financial burden and indeed could even be cash-positive given the large amount of gas that is obviously present.

[bull....]

Dueshbank analysis

Say PRC lowered to sell 12mth target .12c , valuation uncertain due to circumstances , say if mine still viable range between 0 - 67c depending on production.

[Lion]

http://www.djnewsplus.com/ge/article/DN-CO-20101201-016587.html?mod=J1&a=T+Wire&h=MARKET+TALK%3A+Pike+River+Coal+Cut+To+Sell+From+ Buy+By+DB+

Dueshbank analysis

That's just available to subscribers. Can you give us a summary?

[LJB]

No, it is an example of how a calamity can turn out to be of some benefit. Posters here are saying Pike has nil value. I do not agree. I am sure that we can get the mine going again. The loss of life, not just of miners but contractors too, is appalling. I was talking to some on the afternoon shift on the Monday afternoon at the AGM. I am personally really upset.
But Pike has value. How much we do not know. I would imagine that we can at least start cleaning up after the miners are recovered. There may be a cash call and I am quite willing to put in more cash. Note we are also helped by the 'graben', which we thought was a disaster, and also by the fact that only a small amount of coal has been mined. Which is another disaster that is to our benefit in that it makes saving the mine much easier. Also note that my holding is only small, 10,000 shares for which I have paid about $6,000. I can afford to lose that amount.
Since when did PRC ever trade at 60cents for your 10000 shares to have cost you $6000?
I still find your logic bizzarre that "..a calammity can turn out to be of some benefit." It will only be of benefit in this case if you didn't own any shares prior to this calamity and you buy 'em cheap at 10cents and the mine becomes a going concern. All your analogies and anecdotes are simply irrelevent in this situation to anyone who had any interest (whether financial or human) in this mine.

[bull....]

Since when did PRC ever trade at 60cents for your 10000 shares to have cost you $6000?
I still find your logic bizzarre that "..a calammity can turn out to be of some benefit." It will only be of benefit in this case if you didn't own any shares prior to this calamity and you buy 'em cheap at 10cents and the mine becomes a going concern. All your analogies and anecdotes are simply irrelevent in this situation to anyone who had any interest (whether financial or human) in this mine.

Exactly new investors at low price gain the most , but a big cash issue enables existing investors to regain their value but at a higher average price and also company to have decent working capital for once.
Of course all depends if mine even opens again.

[swissboy]

PRC just started trading on the NZX -77%

[Ian]

Just thinking about the value of the options. Which i hold !!!
First thought is the SP is never going to get to 1.25 by April now (no surprises there)

but if
1) PRC does continue and
2) They need more cash and
3) They rasie the cash prior to the options expirying and
4) They offer shares to existing shareholders at a discount to the SP at the time

then the option get to participate.

Lets say the SP is 30c and they offer shares at 20c (just pulling figures out of the air abs. no science) and it's a one for one

then after the offer the SP would average down to 25c

Would then the options be worth a 5c prior to the offer and then zero after it ? as it would allow you to purchase the cheaper share.

Ian

[root]

PRC just started trading on the NZX -77%

Is everything Ok at your end swissboy?

[Ian]

PRC just started trading on the NZX -77%

Are you sure ?

[Xerof]

NZX must have pushed the wrong button - it definitely showed as trading at 20 cents - swissboy - you're not going mad....or perhaps we both are

[Ian]

NZX must have pushed the wrong button - it definitely showed as trading at 20 cents - you're not going mad....or perhaps we both are

Nothing is actually trading thou. I wonder if it got reset after the NZX wide trading halt for the 2min came off

[warthog]

Yes, and being a Racist was the most profitable thing he has ever done! It was brilliant, the Nice People lost their shirt, house and cuff-links. My brother lost nothing, except a Nil Dividend from Lloyds and comment from people. He closed his company down afterwards by the way and so no-one was employed. African or Purple. The chap who was principled and required his departure was left with a higher bill, having lost one Name, than would have been the case if my brother was not thrown out. Further, it was nothing to do with Lloyds. So people who are 'principled' sometimes pay a bit for their principles.

Even racist people get lucky once in a while.

[Lego_Man]

It's laughable how some people (mainly the PC left) equate political opinions with personal character.

Give me a racist that loves and is caring/loyal to his friends and family any day, over a guy who claims to be a compassionate left wing voter but is actually a prick of a person.

[warthog]

It's laughable how some people (mainly the PC left) equate political opinions with personal character.

Give me a racist that loves and is caring/loyal to his friends and family any day, over a guy who claims to be a compassionate left wing voter but is actually a prick of a person.

Hey Legoman! The hog is calling you out on your "logic". It makes no sense at all!

So presumably you would prefer anybody who is caring/loyal to friends and family over simply any self-proclaiming compassionate prick (political persuasion having nothing to do with it). After all, being a prick isn't inherently any more "PC left" than it is "Lunatic fringe right" (or anything else).

It strikes the hog that you seem to be equating the "PC left"/"left wing" with personal character ("prick of a person"), which is ironically exactly what you are bleating about others doing.

Maybe you just meant that you prefer nice people over pricks? Trouble is, racism isn't nice (the hog bets you are white, male, and middle-class).

For the record, the hog isn't PC, or left, or PC left, and would prefer loving/caring people over pricks of any guise, any day.

[fabs]

One thing that might be causing a halt to the share buyback is that NZO surely has some inside knowledge of the PRC situation that is not available to the market. So buying back shares while that situation continues could be considered insider trading.

ON THE OTHER HAND
NZO T/O PRCs OTHER 70% FOR BETWEEN 20-40-MIL. COLLECT ABOUT THAT MUCH FROM INS.WAIT TILL THE DUST HAS SETTLED 45MILL DEPTH + INTEREST GOES ON THE BOOKS. PLUS HUGE TAX WRITE OFFS FROM FUTURE EARNINGS FROM PRC WHEN IN 1 1/2 - 2 YEARS CLEANED UP AND COMPLIANT WITH A NEW FORMAT BROUGHT TO FULL PRODUCTION.
FLOATED AS A GOING CONCERN.
ANY BODY CARE TO DO THE SUMS ????

[777]

Do it by an issue of NZO shares as well. Something like 1 NZO share for 5 PRC shares.

[mouse]

Since when did PRC ever trade at 60cents for your 10000 shares to have cost you $6000?
I still find your logic bizzarre that "..a calammity can turn out to be of some benefit." It will only be of benefit in this case if you didn't own any shares prior to this calamity and you buy 'em cheap at 10cents and the mine becomes a going concern. All your analogies and anecdotes are simply irrelevent in this situation to anyone who had any interest (whether financial or human) in this mine.

The 60 cents per share is arrived at by having bought, sold, then bought back in again having taken some profit. So actual costs are about 60 cents a share. Others of course are in a bit of a pickle. But I am sure that Pike will be a coal mine again. I am sure we will have a large cash call, which I will support. I am not sure if Govt will back the cash call. However, as they have backed Australian Banks in the recent past, I have a little bit of confidence about Govt backing. Further, I suspect the cash call will come before the options expire. Which must make the options still worth something, or at least worth holding onto.

If, after this calaminty, we get approval to mine all 58 million tonnes of coal using a longwall? mining system to take all the coal out without any consideration for subsidence then our shares are worth quite a bit even today. The problem seems to me we were forced to use the wrong mining technique and as result 29 miners lost their lives. The benefit of hindsight.

[warthog]

The problem seems to me we were forced to use the wrong mining technique and as result 29 miners lost their lives. The benefit of hindsight.

Talk about armchair experts. Nobody "forced" PRC to lift a finger in any direction at all - what a bizarre statement.

Why don't you wait until at least some more facts are known before so confidently proclaiming the causes of the situation?

The hog's guess is that it is unlikely that this mine will ever be operated in any other way in the future, and once the causes have been identified and mitigated to an acceptable extent, miners will be back in there, earning their high-risk dollars, and speculators will be back for a punt, recapitalising the company to have another go.

The government are both feckless on the one hand, and wary of the looming next election on the other, so forever mindful and preoccupied with self-preservation and keeping "the other crowd" out of power. They won't be looking to piss people off in the near future.

[Lego_Man]

Hey Legoman! The hog is calling you out on your "logic". It makes no sense at all!

So presumably you would prefer anybody who is caring/loyal to friends and family over simply any self-proclaiming compassionate prick (political persuasion having nothing to do with it). After all, being a prick isn't inherently any more "PC left" than it is "Lunatic fringe right" (or anything else).

It strikes the hog that you seem to be equating the "PC left"/"left wing" with personal character ("prick of a person"), which is ironically exactly what you are bleating about others doing.

Maybe you just meant that you prefer nice people over pricks? Trouble is, racism isn't nice (the hog bets you are white, male, and middle-class).

For the record, the hog isn't PC, or left, or PC left, and would prefer loving/caring people over pricks of any guise, any day.

Depends how you define racism. Im not talking about the Holocaust here. What if i simply dont support multiculturalism/uncontrolled immigration? Dont like Islam?

I think you misinterpreted my post. I'll take anyone regardless of political slant if they have good personal qualities.

However the "leftist" approach is often to view themselves as compassionate because they tick a red box come election time, at the same time condemning anyone who ticks a blue box as evil and selfish.

[skid]

doesnt sound like this name at lloyds gave the fellow who came in a chance to show whether he had good personal qualities-If i remember right,he got knocked back because he was African.Unless ofcourse you believe there are no Africans with good personal qualities.

[fungus pudding]

doesnt sound like this name at lloyds gave the fellow who came in a chance to show whether he had good personal qualities-If i remember right,he got knocked back because he was African.Unless ofcourse you believe there are no Africans with good personal qualities.

Not necessarily anything to do with all Africans. It might be just that you consider they have a higher proportion of ratbags.

[winner69]

BHP to hike coking coal prices
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/BHP-plans-to-hike-coking-coal-prices-by-8-pct---Ni-BRQFB?opendocument&src=rss

Might help the sums when they think of the future

[Mr Tommy]

For all the lastest on Pike, go to the Plods site:

http://www.police.govt.nz/node/26105

and check this out too:

http://www.police.govt.nz/operation_pike/videos_photos

[Nitaa]

I was travelling from the West Coast to Christchurch on Monday but I refrained from going to Greymouth. Not because I didn't want to but didn't know how I could be of benefit.

Yesterday at 2pm I was sitting at a waiting room at the Greenlane eye clinic and within a few seconds everyone stood in silence. During those 2 minutes a lot of thoughts crossed my mind and most likely similar thoughts to everyone else. What made me so proud to be a kiwi is that how as a nation we all shared some of the pain together and we stood as a nation to honour these miners in a way that a true kiwi can. I trust that this comradery (John Key also mentioned this a week or so ago) went some way of easing some of the pain for the people so harshly affected on the West Coast.

Proud to be a kiwi.

RIP

[LJB]

Depends how you define racism. Im not talking about the Holocaust here. What if i simply dont support multiculturalism/uncontrolled immigration? Dont like Islam?

I think you misinterpreted my post. I'll take anyone regardless of political slant if they have good personal qualities.

However the "leftist" approach is often to view themselves as compassionate because they tick a red box come election time, at the same time condemning anyone who ticks a blue box as evil and selfish.

Great 'Hansonian' rhetoric.
"I'll take anyone regardless of political slant if they have good personal qualities." What about cultural slant? Sexual slant? Car buying slant? Tat wearing slant? Elocution slant? Is it just political tolerance you exhibit or do you take everyone as they come?
You sound like an expert on how "leftists" view themselves too. You do realise that "leftist" red commies were racists too.

[Nitaa]

Union upset Pike River's lawyers called in
2:39 PM Friday Dec 3, 2010

Andrew Little. Photo / Richard RobinsonThe miners' union says Pike River Coal is insisting that its lawyers sit in on official police and Department of Labour investigation interviews into the mine tragedy which claimed 29 lives.

The union said that was potentially "contaminating" the process.

However, Pike River said today it was only making employees - many of whom had no prior contact with the police - aware of their legal rights.

The Engineering, Printing and Manufacturing Union, which represents miners, said today the company's stance was causing major conflict.

"Management is insisting on the right of company lawyers to sit in on interviews. Their lawyers are sitting in on interviews with the Department of Labour and police," general secretary Andrew Little said.

"We have objected - it's a clear conflict of interest. Police are looking for criminal liability among workers or management, or both. It's improper for the company to be represented by lawyers in those interviews."

Mr Little also claimed Pike River was briefing employees on the day they were due to be interviewed, and that was contaminating the investigations.

However, Pike River Coal chairman John Dow said it was up to individual employees whether lawyers sat in on the interviews.

The company was only trying to ensure its staff got the appropriate advice on their rights, and how the process worked.

"We are trying to find out what happened, our only interest is getting to the bottom of it - what caused the explosion and making sure it won't happen again.

"We've said to our employees that if they are not happy having lawyers in the room, that's fine."

The company had already said it would fully co-operate with the police, Department of Labour and coroner, and would make staff available for interviews.

Pike River would conduct its own inquiry and was interested in the truth, not conflict.

The briefings beforehand were solely about the workers' rights, and the company was working in a spirit of "co-operation and openness".

However, Mr Little said the union was advising its members to ask that the lawyers not attend interviews. Every time an employee had done so it had caused "major conflict".

The union was having "stand-up conflicts" with the company and its lawyers, he said.

A Department of Labour (DOL) spokesman said it was the employee's choice to decide whether company lawyers or other representatives attended on DOL interviews.

"We are informing employees that they have this choice."

- NZPA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an ex union official this comment from Andrew Little intrigues me somewhat. The question I would have is the lawyers representing the company only and not it's employees? Or as an employee and or manager of Pike I would be asking for clarification on who are the laywers representing. Basically you can't blame the company's position and it would make common sense from the unions perspective to have a Union official there is any of it's members wished for their presence.

Normally Andrew Little makes sense but I don't agree with him on this matter.

[fabs]

An indication of things to come.
This has all ready the hallmark of a long drawn-out process.
No cost will be speared that's fair enough, but who has the very loose change required?

[warthog]

Depends how you define racism. Im not talking about the Holocaust here. What if i simply dont support multiculturalism/uncontrolled immigration? Dont like Islam?

I think you misinterpreted my post. I'll take anyone regardless of political slant if they have good personal qualities.

However the "leftist" approach is often to view themselves as compassionate because they tick a red box come election time, at the same time condemning anyone who ticks a blue box as evil and selfish.

What an amazing specimen of almost perfect hypocrisy. Well done that (Lego) man!

You began by saying that your brother got the cold shoulder from Lloyds because he didn't employ somebody because they were African. If this is accurate, it's pretty blatant racism (the hog assumes you were referring to an indigenous African). One reason is that your brother didn't bother with the man's personal qualities but instead made a judgement on the basis of what he was (rather than who).

Your critical comments about "leftist"s being people who condemn people who vote for conservatives as somehow evil and selfish (if the hog has got this right?) are laughable at best given your own considerable and confused and misguided assumptions about "leftists".

However, the hog is not uncharitable, and like to see people seizing the moment and embracing the opportunity to enlighten themselves when they realise how confused they really are (or even get a hint of it, as you might if you read your own posts).

So in this vein, the hog suggests you embark on a course of learning concerning logic, with gay(1) abandon, and provides you conveniently with the following link so you may begin your quest without delay!

Simple logic for beginners (http://logic.philosophy.ox.ac.uk/main.htm)

Please let us know how you get on.

(1) Note, this is nothing to do with sexuality

[warthog]

Union upset Pike River's lawyers called in
2:39 PM Friday Dec 3, 2010

Andrew Little. Photo / Richard RobinsonThe miners' union says Pike River Coal is insisting that its lawyers sit in on official police and Department of Labour investigation interviews into the mine tragedy which claimed 29 lives. (snip)

Interesting twist.

So what do people think is the real reason behind PRC wanting their lawyers to sit in on police interviews with police?

Does anybody think that PRC really care about employee legal rights in respect of such interviews?

The hog speculates that this might have something to do with insurance.

From memory, if one is insured and has an accident, is one not obliged to avoid any admission of responsibility without consulting the insurer first?

There are a few here who appear to be intimately familiar with insurance issues. Any comments?

[Hoop]

Interesting twist.

So what do people think is the real reason behind PRC wanting their lawyers to sit in on police interviews with police?

Does anybody think that PRC really care about employee legal rights in respect of such interviews?

The hog speculates that this might have something to do with insurance.

From memory, if one is insured and has an accident, is one not obliged to avoid any admission of responsibility without consulting the insurer first?

There are a few here who appear to be intimately familiar with insurance issues. Any comments?

Smart move....but it comes with a cost ......guess where the insurance money (if any) is going to

[mouse]

doesnt sound like this name at lloyds gave the fellow who came in a chance to show whether he had good personal qualities-If i remember right,he got knocked back because he was African.Unless ofcourse you believe there are no Africans with good personal qualities.
No, he got knocked out because a more qualified chap applied. John told him that he didnt get the job because John says that sort of thing. The African chap could not even speak in an English way, which was vital for the work to be done. The legal costs of the court case made the firm broke and so the qualified chap, who could do the job etc., became unemployed. John however saved his cuff-links by being expelled from Lloyds who then themselves, without telling an African chap he could not have a job, went broke.

[warthog]

No, he got knocked out because a more qualified chap applied. John told him that he didnt get the job because John says that sort of thing. The African chap could not even speak in an English way, which was vital for the work to be done. The legal costs of the court case made the firm broke and so the qualified chap, who could do the job etc., became unemployed. John however saved his cuff-links by being expelled from Lloyds who then themselves, without telling an African chap he could not have a job, went broke.

This is just gibberish. The hog can see a beginners course in simple, effective communication is in order (searches Google ...)

In the beginning you said "He also ran a small business and advertised for help. One African chap turned up. John said to him 'we dont employ Africans.'"

Is this correct or not?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Union upset Pike River's lawyers called in
2:39 PM Friday Dec 3, 2010

Andrew Little. Photo / Richard RobinsonThe miners' union says Pike River Coal is insisting that its lawyers sit in on official police and Department of Labour investigation interviews into the mine tragedy which claimed 29 lives.

The union said that was potentially "contaminating" the process.

However, Pike River said today it was only making employees - many of whom had no prior contact with the police - aware of their legal rights.

The Engineering, Printing and Manufacturing Union, which represents miners, said today the company's stance was causing major conflict.

"Management is insisting on the right of company lawyers to sit in on interviews. Their lawyers are sitting in on interviews with the Department of Labour and police," general secretary Andrew Little said.

"We have objected - it's a clear conflict of interest. Police are looking for criminal liability among workers or management, or both. It's improper for the company to be represented by lawyers in those interviews."

Mr Little also claimed Pike River was briefing employees on the day they were due to be interviewed, and that was contaminating the investigations.

However, Pike River Coal chairman John Dow said it was up to individual employees whether lawyers sat in on the interviews.

The company was only trying to ensure its staff got the appropriate advice on their rights, and how the process worked.

"We are trying to find out what happened, our only interest is getting to the bottom of it - what caused the explosion and making sure it won't happen again.

"We've said to our employees that if they are not happy having lawyers in the room, that's fine."

The company had already said it would fully co-operate with the police, Department of Labour and coroner, and would make staff available for interviews.

Pike River would conduct its own inquiry and was interested in the truth, not conflict.

The briefings beforehand were solely about the workers' rights, and the company was working in a spirit of "co-operation and openness".

However, Mr Little said the union was advising its members to ask that the lawyers not attend interviews. Every time an employee had done so it had caused "major conflict".

The union was having "stand-up conflicts" with the company and its lawyers, he said.

A Department of Labour (DOL) spokesman said it was the employee's choice to decide whether company lawyers or other representatives attended on DOL interviews.

"We are informing employees that they have this choice."

- NZPA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an ex union official this comment from Andrew Little intrigues me somewhat. The question I would have is the lawyers representing the company only and not it's employees? Or as an employee and or manager of Pike I would be asking for clarification on who are the laywers representing. Basically you can't blame the company's position and it would make common sense from the unions perspective to have a Union official there is any of it's members wished for their presence.

Normally Andrew Little makes sense but I don't agree with him on this matter.

====================

Something needs to be done here. If Pike River are coaching workers prior to them going into these interviews then the process is a farce. Something needs to happen to stop these PRC clowns stopping the truth from coming out. These monied arrogant pricks can't f*&k up justice like this.

[rev]

Dow was interviewed on National Radio last night, Marie(y?) Wilson basically took the union line that PRC where forcing employees to take the PRC lawyer in with them, Dow said this was not true and mischievious of the union - he said the offer was there and the employees were free to accept or decline. He said most staff would have never been in a situation such as this and it was purely a gesture of good will from PRC to their staff. Dow also said staff could take their own or any lawyer they chose to the interview.

Having read the few online news articles and hearing the interview on this I would agree that the union are sh!t-stirring. It's hard for an employer to do anything that isn't seen as self serving in the union's eyes.

[skid]

29 minors are dead,the police are looking for criminal liability,your a west coast minor,wouldnt you like to have access to a lawyer?Then there are the insurance issues.
Sometimes the unions lose sight of the big picture-Remember the HOBBIT,The union managhed to cost the new zealand film industry millions in tax concessions.
Im sure everyone wants to see a fair outcome to this tragedy,but lets face it ,sometimes these things can get further complicated by statments like the union is making.

[iceman]

Dow was interviewed on National Radio last night, Marie(y?) Wilson basically took the union line that PRC where forcing employees to take the PRC lawyer in with them, Dow said this was not true and mischievious of the union - he said the offer was there and the employees were free to accept or decline. He said most staff would have never been in a situation such as this and it was purely a gesture of good will from PRC to their staff. Dow also said staff could take their own or any lawyer they chose to the interview.

Having read the few online news articles and hearing the interview on this I would agree that the union are sh!t-stirring. It's hard for an employer to do anything that isn't seen as self serving in the union's eyes.

Of course the Union is sh..stirring. Most of the employees that will be interviewed/interrogated have never sat in front of such a panel and will feel insecure and intimidated. These are however tough guys from a close community and will not be intimidated to tell anything other than the truth in the memory of their lost mates. It would be irresponsible of PRC not to offer them assistance and representation, same as the Union should offer. They should of course be able to turn down that offer if they feel so inclined. It is in everyones best interest to find the truth and based on everything I've seen from Peter Whittall during this terrible tradegy, gives me full confidence that that is exactly what he and PRC want to achieve. I sincerely hope that will be the end result.

[warthog]

The hog has a simple perspective on this: PRC are suddenly very interested in providing expensive legal assistance, on a "goodwill" basis, to their employees being interviewed by the police.

At any time in the past, has PRC provided free legal assistance to its employees at any level whatsoever?

That should tell you what you want to know.

Forget about the union. That's just a distraction, and a bandwagon that you guys too easy jump onto and get hyped up over.

Police interviews are not necessarily a "panel" at all, and are certainly not usually (in similar circumstances) designed to intimidate or make people feel insecure. Point of fact, they are designed to do the opposite.

[winner69]

Those of you who see yourselves as 'owners' of PC how would you want to handle this situation with 'your' employees

Sometimes we forget what the R in HR stands for eh

[peat]

Sometimes we forget what the R in HR stands for eh
Resources?
something to be mined...

;+)

[winner69]

Resources?
something to be mined...

;+)


.... with other resources .... machines and people etc

[warthog]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/4422350/Chinese-follow-Australians-in-scouring-NZ-for-mining-projects

One day, New Zealand will wake up and realise that any and all interest from overseas in mining NZ will only have very short-term and peripheral benefits (indeed, if any) for New Zealanders.

But by then, it'll be way too late. Does anybody truly believe that such interests have any regard for the land, or people (resources)?

[Balance]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/4422350/Chinese-follow-Australians-in-scouring-NZ-for-mining-projects

One day, New Zealand will wake up and realise that any and all interest from overseas in mining NZ will only have very short-term and peripheral benefits (indeed, if any) for New Zealanders.

But by then, it'll be way too late. Does anybody truly believe that such interests have any regard for the land, or people (resources)?

Yes.

Compared to the blatant pollution of our waterways and land by the farming sector, the mining sector is highly regulated.

[blockhead]

I listened to Andrew Little on National Radio and I can understand where he is coming from, this is just the start of what will be a long legal process and it may well be that a big portion of blame ends up sitting fair and square on someones lap, this may be management, workers, subbies or any of who knows how many persons involved in the mine construction and operation. Pike have a big interest in what goes on, if they were to be providing legal counsel for their employess it may at a later stage be seen as colouring the staffs response to tricky questions. Best to get all the lines of enquiry seperated right from the start.

If I was the employess representative I would be saying "thanks, but no thanks" to Pike for the offer.

By the way I do not see anything underhand in Pikes offer, I just think it is best to remain independant.

[fish]

Blocky numerous studies of interview techniques have shown that some people will end up signing statements which are untrue . Leading questions can implant ideas . A lawyers presence,in theory, should help prevent this sort of thing happening . I do understand where you are coming from and I dont want the truth hidden but also I dont wont to see someone found guilty of manslaughter for doing his job with reasonable care and attention .

[minimoke]

I dont wont to see someone found guilty of manslaughter for doing his job with reasonable care and attention .
Thats pretty unlikely, I can't think of a single industrial manslaughter case in NZ. At worst OSH will come in with a wet bus ticket for any person who was negligent but no-one one will get charged if they were doing their job with reasonable care.

[iceman]

The hog has a simple perspective on this: PRC are suddenly very interested in providing expensive legal assistance, on a "goodwill" basis, to their employees being interviewed by the police.

At any time in the past, has PRC provided free legal assistance to its employees at any level whatsoever?

That should tell you what you want to know.

Forget about the union. That's just a distraction, and a bandwagon that you guys too easy jump onto and get hyped up over.

Police interviews are not necessarily a "panel" at all, and are certainly not usually (in similar circumstances) designed to intimidate or make people feel insecure. Point of fact, they are designed to do the opposite.

Hog I agree with you the Union thing is a distraction, but a distraction the Union itself started. Whether PRC has provided legal assiatance to its employees before is irrelevant, due to the magnitude of the issues we are facing now.
Many years ago, I was in charge of a work group of 12 people where one of my mates was lost in an accident. The rest of us were hauled in front of an investigation (rightly so) and you bet it makes one feel quite intimidated an insecure. Our employer offered free representation, which all 11 of us accepted. It did not taint the investigation in any way whatsoever and in fact it reached a fair conclusion that closed the matter for all involved. That's why I applaud PRC for what they are doing and hope this investigation will answer the questions we all want to know the answers to.

[fish]

an anaesthetist was charged with manslaughter when he did his job with reasonable care a few years ago .
The point i was really making is for instance if the police feel someone has been negligent they can ask leading questions and even implant ideas or twist statements to substantiate their case ,
If they feel someone has been sufficiently negligent they would try for manslaughter .

[warthog]

Hog I agree with you the Union thing is a distraction, but a distraction the Union itself started. Whether PRC has provided legal assiatance to its employees before is irrelevant, due to the magnitude of the issues we are facing now.o.

Fair enough we can agree to disagree here, but the hog can't see any reason for PRC's lawyers being offered to employees in this situation other than self-interest.

[Monkey Poms]

We watched the Memorial service for the miners on BBC and felt very moved, and proud of the support
of the West Coast community showing their compassion for the bereaved families.

A simple thing such as placing a table for each of the lads with their photographs and mementos was
immensely touching. We are sure all Piker's on this forum would like to see a permanent memorial
erected to the 29 miners some time in the future.

Monkey Poms

[Nitaa]

29 minors are dead,the police are looking for criminal liability,your a west coast minor,wouldnt you like to have access to a lawyer?Then there are the insurance issues.
Sometimes the unions lose sight of the big picture-Remember the HOBBIT,The union managhed to cost the new zealand film industry millions in tax concessions.
Im sure everyone wants to see a fair outcome to this tragedy,but lets face it ,sometimes these things can get further complicated by statments like the union is making.Don't get confused on the role of the Union. The Union has no reason to be shiit stirring for no reason especially given the sensitive nature of this event. Can anyone answer this question? Is PRC doing this for the employees, company or both? What about this scenario. Would the lawyer or Company support an employee if he did something wrong that was condoned unofficially by PRC management but not condoned officially by PRC. Would they let the employee hang out to dry. I am not suggesting this occurred but a scenario like this may help where an employee sits in a situation like this.

Actually what comes to mind is how a few workers have resigned due to sickess. One indicated that a supervsior would often taken methane readings but would never disclose it to the workers. As a miner I think they have a right to know what the levels are. If the readings were marginal does the company shut down the mine untill readings improve. Perhaps this is one area where there could be issues

[root]

Would the lawyer or Company support an employee if he did something wrong that was condoned unofficially by PRC management but not condoned officially by PRC. Would they let the employee hang out to dry. I am not suggesting this occurred but a scenario like this may help where an employee sits in a situation like this.


All that would need to be shown is that management had knowledge of processes or systems not being adhered to or operated correctly, and then took no action (condoned unofficially). That would put everybody from management down to the employee in the range of the OSH guns (the highest fault would lie with the employer). If an employee was acting negligently in isolation you could argue that there should be a system to catch this, and management could still be culpable. I don't think anything like this can be hung solely on a single employee or group of employees, unless malicious intent can be proven, which is unlikely.

Very few safety systems are adhered to 100%, all of the time. These comments are generic and don't necessarily relate to PRC.

[the machine]

see the gag unit broke some high pressure hoses, but should be back up running later today

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CCkQqQIwBA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.smh.com.au%2Fbreaking-news-world%2Fgag-machine-shut-down-in-nz-mine-20101205-18l0j.html&ei=Adz6TJJ4jYasB8is6YkI&usg=AFQjCNGrAlA6NVLIXd4Aiusw9uOBAInufg

M

[winner69]

Mine chief 'should have apologised'
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4425491/Mine-chief-should-have-apologised



"He's now been called a national hero, but he's the CEO of that company and he hasn't apologised,"

Whitall has done well but that same thought has struck me a few times .... and maybe one day he could go from hero to zero

But come on union guys .... just remember that workers are the R in HR .... a resource to be productively used to make heaps of money for greedy shareholders

[blockhead]

How the hell can he apologise, he like us doesn't know what happened yet. Of course he is sorry it happened, get real people, I imagine he would much rather be down the mine kicking a lump of high grade coal around than standing next to John Key being interviewed.
It is to his credit he was able to manage being thrust from a coal mine to International media coverage in a day whilst dealing with a major tragedy at his workplace.

[brucey09]

Snr. Little will make this issue one of brand recognition for HIM

[iceman]

How the hell can he apologise, he like us doesn't know what happened yet. Of course he is sorry it happened, get real people, I imagine he would much rather be down the mine kicking a lump of high grade coal around than standing next to John Key being interviewed.
It is to his credit he was able to manage being thrust from a coal mine to International media coverage in a day whilst dealing with a major tragedy at his workplace.



Absolutely agree Blockhead. Helen Kelly should just pull her head in for now and await the outcomes of the inquiries that are/will take place, but given her past, it is unlikely. Personal attacks right now are NOT the way forward but one really has to wonder about the Unions (run by the Labour Party President) and what they are up to with their unhelpful and premature statements in the last few days.

[warthog]

Absolutely agree Blockhead. Helen Kelly should just pull her head in for now and await the outcomes of the inquiries that are/will take place, but given her past, it is unlikely. Personal attacks right now are NOT the way forward but one really has to wonder about the Unions (run by the Labour Party President) are up to with their unhelpful and premature statements in the last few days.

The hog is no fan of unions per se (some unionists are pretty good, others a waste of space) but maybe the point is that before people start affording PRC management brownie points (as they have been receiving to date, for sure, as Winner69 notes and acknowledges above "hero to zero"), why doesn't everybody wait until the final analysis tells us what happened?

The view from the sty is that a few people here have been a bit too quick to jump on this, and taken the union bait and run with it.

[Nitaa]

We are all jumping the gun here and although we are looking for blame it is a bit too early to start pointing the gun so early in the piece. I find it amazing that people are having a go at Peter Whittall who on what we know so far has done nothing wrong and has been nothing short of sensational so far. Helen Kelly has done little to gain any credability. Perhaps she should consider it is not what one says but how they say it. I don't think there is a person who has shown they are sorry more than Peter himself. Helen, for those comments give yourself an uppercut.

[Beagle]

Yes, let's all wait for the outcome of all the investigations what a good idea. In the meantime, perhaps a reality check is in order so bloggers arn't inclined to waste too much of their time on what appears to be a worthless mine.

The market has spoken emphatically, the NZO share price has taken an absolute hammering and wiped the full value of its investment in and loan advances too PRC off its share share price so the weighted average market consensus is clearly that PRC as a company is completly worthless.

If I were so unlucky as to still be an investor, (thankfully not), I'd write this off and move on and try and recover my losses by spending time on more profitable area's of investment. Hint, have a good look at Pan Australia - code PNA.

[sheepy]

Just because he hasnt apologised on to the media, doesnt mean he hasnt already apologised to the familys. Im sure a lot would have being said behind closed doors.

[Nitaa]

If you were the police would you not want to interview the 3 directors that suddenly resigned.

Some things that have been highlighted publicly in should not be ignored are;
-Constant over estimations on Pikes forcasts and costs (was this just to get capital funding as more conservative figures would not achieve the same result). Lets not forget that by Peter Whittalls own admission that he wants to give more realistic production forecasts
-Directors and management becoming under increase pressure from shareholders and other important stakeholders to improve production
-Gordon Ward leaving unexpectantly although not surprisingly
-What are the reasons for employees resigning in the past? Maybe relevant maybe not.

Comments anyone

[peat]

Nita
I dont think the investigation should focus on those issues
It should focus purely on operations

[fish]

Nita
I dont think the investigation should focus on those issues
It should focus purely on operations

Absolutely .There will be numerous people for different reasons wanting to blame PRC management . Watching the interview of Peter Whittall last night he stood up well to hostile questioning and I have no doubt of his integrity

From the video of the blast at the tunnel entrance it looks like the ventilation had failed before the explosion .
Does anybody know if this is true and if so how long before the explosion ?.

[winner69]

Our friend Mr 9fingers posted this on the NZO thread a few days before the explosion. At the time I responded it was one of his more perceptive posts and i got lambasted by the loyalists for saying so

On reflection (and hindsight) and in the context of the content of recent posts maybe Mr 9fingers had some inkling what was going to happen and some insights as to the cause



Originally Posted by Logen Ninefingers
That's the dishonesty promoted within corporate culture. Most of the people rising to the top are driven by the pursuit of money and power, and lack empathy. They have big ego's, pride themselves on positive thinking, and get so locked into this mind-set that they lose objectivity. This is how Pike, with it's constant optimistic forecasts, got itself into this mess. I bet they couldn't find one honest guy prepared to risk his future promotions and big pay packet to actually speak up and be honest about the situation. Everyone from the bottom to the top is locked into saying what everyone else wants to hear, and if you step out of line you're 'negative'....you're out. .....And when things turn to custard, the ego-freaks at the top can't understand it; everything and everyone gets the blame but them.

Even now, with PRC lurching from debacle to crisis at every turn, we still get the same spin and exortations to "think positive". Think honest, think accurate, think real: don't be a sheep.

[Beagle]

Very interesting and perceptive post, couldn't agree more. The plot thickens, just how did Pike become such a bottomless money pit and serious safety hazard, one suspects an entire culture change is necessary, lots of heads to roll and many other changes if PRC2 is ever to see the light of day. But NZO directors assured us they'd undertaken their own independent review of PRC operations and were satisfied....hmmm me thinks they should stick to what they actually know how to do.

[Nitaa]

I have never been a fan of Pike mainly due to the fact that I thought there were easier ways to make money and just didn't make a lot of sense. It really seemed nzo was just try to buy a lotto ticket and get lucky. It might sound harsh but putting Gordon Ward in charge of Pike is like putting Pope Benedict in charge of the Gynaecology department...bit like chalk and cheese. Not a lot of the decisions made sense over the last 15 years but TR must have been trying to get lucky any way he could.

All that aside I cannot yet say a single bad word against Peter Whittall. My continued support for him will be there and I real feel for him and his family.

[STRAT]

why doesn't everybody wait until the final analysis tells us what happened?

The view from the sty is that a few people here have been a bit too quick to jump on this, and taken the union bait and run with it.Thatd knock a few hundred pages off this thread eh Warthog?

[Balance]

Receivership likely.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/4433480/Receivership-looks-on-the-cards-for-Pike-River-Coal

[winner69]

Hope there is no government bailout

Speculative ventures such as this are there for the punters to make zillions or lose the lot ... not for governments to secure jobs and all that sort of stuff when they go wrong

Maybe there will be a PRC2 .... and new investors take on the new risk

[Ian]

Receivership likely.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/4433480/Receivership-looks-on-the-cards-for-Pike-River-Coal

Pike River Coal CEO Peter Whittall has dismissed media speculation that the damaged West Coast mine could soon be put into receivership.

The Dominion Post has quoted "market sources" saying that "Pike River Coal is unlikely to survive as a company until Christmas because of the huge costs it faced".

The paper estimated it could be as high as $200 million to keep operating.

But Whittall, speaking to Radio New Zealand this morning, said a suggestion of receivership is "extremely premature".

Advertisement"It is not even a word that has come up in conversation yet," he said.

The $200m figure has not has come from Pike River Coal, he said, "so I am not sure what the source is".

Pipes, cables and other infrastructure in the mine may need to be replaced, but it is not yet known which areas of the mine have or have not been damaged so the scale of the repairs is unclear.

Whittall said major shareholders New Zealand Oil and Gas were supportive, as were the company's bank. Minor shareholders had provided support as well, he said.

A smaller workforce will be needed to get the mine back on track, but it is impossible to put a timescale on that as it is not yet known what caused the explosions which took the lives of 29 miners last month.

Whittall said flames are still coming out of the mine's ventilation shaft intermittently, but temperatures are dropping around the opening to the shaft.

He said the large steel cap which will be put over the opening is almost ready but is unlikely to be able to go on today.

No arrangement had yet been made with police over who will pay for the GAG machine being used to make the atmosphere in the mine inert. A meeting is yet to be arranged to discuss the issue.

[mouse]

Hope there is no government bailout

Speculative ventures such as this are there for the punters to make zillions or lose the lot ... not for governments to secure jobs and all that sort of stuff when they go wrong

Maybe there will be a PRC2 .... and new investors take on the new risk
If Govt does not bail out Pike I predict that overseas investors, maybe one of the Indian Shareholders, will put in a bid of say 50 cents a share and another sound NZ company will be lost to NZ and the sharemarket. Plus Govt will lose millions in NZ taxes from NZ shareholders. I think Govt should underwrite a rights issue and thus pocket the profit once we get the coal out. Also we should be given the right, before the rights issue, to get out all 58 million tonnes of mineable coal, without any concern about subsidence on the surface. Plus mining to be top priority and blue ducks lower down the pecking order. Which should mean lift in the current shareprice and excellent support for the rights issue.

[mouse]

Cost of GAG machine is clearly to the Fire Service. It is a fire. Pike pays a Fire Service Levy for the Fire Service to deal with fires. No cost to Pike. No argument.

[Ian]

If Govt does not bail out Pike I predict that overseas investors, maybe one of the Indian Shareholders, will put in a bid of say 50 cents a share and another sound NZ company will be lost to NZ and the sharemarket. Plus Govt will lose millions in NZ taxes from NZ shareholders. I think Govt should underwrite a rights issue and thus pocket the profit once we get the coal out. Also we should be given the right, before the rights issue, to get out all 58 million tonnes of mineable coal, without any concern about subsidence on the surface. Plus mining to be top priority and blue ducks lower down the pecking order. Which should mean lift in the current shareprice and excellent support for the rights issue.

Yes I do like the idea of the gov. taking a stake to help secure the jobs on the coast, and to increase the amount of coal Pike can get out.
As a shareholder any idea which helps the share price is welcome but any govt. assistance needs to be for the good of the country not for me the shareholder, and I think your idea would help both.

[777]

Cost of GAG machine is clearly to the Fire Service. It is a fire. Pike pays a Fire Service Levy for the Fire Service to deal with fires. No cost to Pike. No argument.

But if the fire is no threat to life then the Fire Service only needs to let it burn itself out.

Playing devils advocate here..

[blockhead]

A lot of water will flow under the Buller bridge before "who pays" for a lot of the costs here are decided, PRC, Govt, NZ Fire Service, Insurance Co, whoever. There will be money in it for the lawyers, thats the only sure thing.

I would like to see the mine saved and into production, as yet it is hard to figure what might be the best way to do that.

I imagine there would be a lot of interested parties if a "For Sale" sign was hammered in down by the stockpile, where else would you get access to top grade coal with all the permits, roads etc etc etc all in place. There will be buzzards hovering don't worry about that.

If us shareholders get anything out of it is another matter altogether.

[Beagle]

I have never been a fan of Pike mainly due to the fact that I thought there were easier ways to make money and just didn't make a lot of sense. It really seemed nzo was just try to buy a lotto ticket and get lucky. It might sound harsh but putting Gordon Ward in charge of Pike is like putting Pope Benedict in charge of the Gynaecology department...bit like chalk and cheese. Not a lot of the decisions made sense over the last 15 years but TR must have been trying to get lucky any way he could.

All that aside I cannot yet say a single bad word against Peter Whittall. My continued support for him will be there and I real feel for him and his family.

Remind me again who was in charge of the mine operations until he became CEO ?

Yes that's right, he's been a top performer over the tragedy but his performance while he was in change of the mine operations was far from stellar and the overall business performance of PRC has been absolutly pathetic.

[percy]

Chalkie has also done a good article on PRC.www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion/doubtful future for Pike investors
Sorry if link does not work.Go to stuff,then business,then oponion.

[777]

This should work


http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/business/4434744/Doubtful-future-for-Pike-investors

[Balance]

This should work


http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/business/4434744/Doubtful-future-for-Pike-investors

Cannot agree with Chalkie on this :

"PRC's problem from the outset has been a double-edged one of not enough capital and a dependence on just one operation for all its revenues."

PRC's problem is a bunch of amateurs trying to develop a complicated coal mine without proper scoping and hence, sufficient funding from day 1.

Ably supported by Pikers (like those on this website) who were very happy to swallow whole everything told to them by the amateurs.

There is unquestionable value in the coal reserves that PRC has rights to. The value will not be extracted by the existing bunch of amateurs however.

Watch for NZO to cut a deal. Pikers better hope that they get a share of that deal.

Don't hold your breath though.

[winner69]

If Govt does not bail out Pike I predict that overseas investors, maybe one of the Indian Shareholders, will put in a bid of say 50 cents a share and another sound NZ company will be lost to NZ and the sharemarket. Plus Govt will lose millions in NZ taxes from NZ shareholders. I think Govt should underwrite a rights issue and thus pocket the profit once we get the coal out. Also we should be given the right, before the rights issue, to get out all 58 million tonnes of mineable coal, without any concern about subsidence on the surface. Plus mining to be top priority and blue ducks lower down the pecking order. Which should mean lift in the current shareprice and excellent support for the rights issue.

Doesn't this argument suggest that the gov should also take out WDT at about 10 cents a share ..... so they can get enough cash to keep the jobs in Auckland and get their little motors to market and to save some foreigner buying them ... and to give shareholders some relief now

[Balance]

Doesn't this argument suggest that the gov should also take out WDT at about 10 cents a share ..... so they can get enough cash to keep the jobs in Auckland and get their little motors to market and to save some foreigner buying them ... and to give shareholders some relief now

I suspect, W69, that WDT has shot itself in the foot by locating production overseas and is not in the same multi-billion dollars league as PRC.

Having said that, I cannot see the government doing anything here, save via an SOE like Solid Energy.

[winner69]

I suspect, W69, that WDT has shot itself in the foot by locating production overseas and is not in the same multi-billion dollars league as PRC.

Having said that, I cannot see the government doing anything here, save via an SOE like Solid Energy.

Hope that is the case mate

[bull....]

From chalkie

What the mine would need from now is either an investor with deep pockets or perhaps a mining company that already has other operations in place, where the cash flow can be applied to Pike River. The most likely way a change in control could take place would be either for PRC to undertake a massive recapitalisation - hugely diluting existing shareholdings - or for the assets to be simply transferred out of PRC.
Under either scenario the existing shareholders of PRC would be unlikely to recoup anything like the amount of money they have contributed.


A major recap similar to nuplex , fisher paykel appliances could take place like chailkie says exsisting shareholders would need to take part or face losing most of their money in fact if they dont go down this path all shareholders will lose all their money anyway.
Solid energy taking part in the recap makes sense it could become the biggest shareholder and by default the govt reaps the benefits going forward.

[Casa del Energia]

Fire is out.

[bob.not.a.builder]

Fire is out.

Bloody good news. Heard at one stage it could take weeks.

[blockhead]

I would be very surprised if the fire is out, maybe no more fire coming out the ventilation shaft but a fair chance it is still smouldering down below, let some air in and it would be away again.

[Ian]

A ventilation shaft at the Pike River Coal mine on the West Coast remains uncapped after toxic gases hampered efforts to seal the mine on Wednesday.

Twenty-nine workers were killed following a series of explosions at the mine near Greymouth which began on 19 November.

The officer in charge of the recovery operation Superintendent Gary Knowles says while there is no longer a flame in the shaft, it is still pumping out methane and other gases which are extremely volatile and dangerous.

Mr Knowles says the shaft is being monitored morning and night and it will not be capped until it is safe to do so.

A GAG machine designed to make the mine safe to enter is continuing to be used at the mine and is functioning well.



Copyright © 2010, Radio New Zealand

[skid]

kind of depressing at the end of the posts,theres that chart showing where pike used to be....still, its a continueing saga

[winner69]

kind of depressing at the end of the posts,theres that chart showing where pike used to be....still, its a continueing saga

This woman hasn't faced up to reality yet




..... checking on the prices of her share portfolio via a National Bank password-accessed website.

She was not selling her shares, but was just checking on the prices within her overall portfolio with PRC quoted at a value of 20 cents, she added.

,,,,,,,,,,,She had also phoned the National Bank to find out why the PRC price of 20 cents quoted had not been changed back to the original 88 cents.


Suppose her portfolio value took a hit and she wanted the 88 cents back
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/4420881/Shares-mistakenly-traded

[Lizard]

Yes, if I'd held and seen them being traded, I'd have been ringing the broker too...

...though it would be to see if I could exit too, no matter what the price!

[peat]

yeh my trades were done and then reversed out on me.

what happened to 'a deal is a deal' ;+)

[winner69]

yeh my trades were done and then reversed out on me.

what happened to 'a deal is a deal' ;+)

Interesting question peat ..... even if the market is 'uninformed' should punters still be able to take a punt one way or the other

Suppose interested parties could do off market trades if they so desired?

[Lizard]

Looks as though I am going to get the controversial task of assigning a value to PRC shares at the end of next week for the NZX share comp though... I am considering that using the value achieved in those reversed trades might be the fairest indication.

[upside_umop]

Are CFD's still trading? I remember Peat saying they were trading at ~70cents on the Monday after.

Sorry I haven't read all the pages on here, so haven't checked if the CFD's still are!

[peat]

nope they arent upside_umop.
they never traded officially since the blast. as I said those trades I did were considered an error and reversed.

the price quoted is jumping around a lot still 88c some days 25 some days.

Lizard
you should really value them at zero dont you think? Either from the perspective that they are completely illiquid. or the likelihood that thats what they are worth.

[upside_umop]

ah i see, i thought you were referring to the NZX trades that went through at 20 cents!
like i said...i haven't trawled through all the arm chair experts on here for a while...
it's a tough call what to value them at. personally, i think they're valued at zero (but then again i'm biased as i didn't pick em in the comp! :D )

[Xerof]

"Traded price" at 20 cents seems fair to me - it's not going to matter anyway in the context of the comp

Having said that, I think you are right Peat - receivership seems inevitable

[Beagle]

"Traded price" at 20 cents seems fair to me - it's not going to matter anyway in the context of the comp

Having said that, I think you are right Peat - receivership seems inevitable

Mine temp is still a whopping 600 degrees !! http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/conditions-pike-river-mine-still-volatile-3958231

That's a reality check for anyone dreaming this fiasco might be over anytime soon.

[mouse]

Having said that, I think you are right Peat - receivership seems inevitable

Pike has rights to 58 million tonnes of coking coal. Profit NZ$100 per tonne gives us NZ$5 billion profit. NZOG will not walk away from their stake, too much to lose. They will sell on if they can get a good price, which could be anything between 40cents and 60 cents a share. If we get a takeover bidding war it could go higher. We have all the roadways and processing plant outside the mine intact. We have West Coast Support to re-open the mine. I suspect we have political support also.
The question is, do we have the political will to prevent Pike falling into being one more NZ asset sold overseas. Govt has to back this one, either directly or indirectly, to get Pike working again.

It will take quite some time to reduce the temperature in the mine so it is safe to enter. It is a little like a thermos flask or oven. Well insulated so time is needed. Then we have to ensure that we have low gas levels. I would hazard late February as a date we can get in. Plus I would think the cash call would happen within the 90 days hold on debt calling in, unless NZOG does another bale out. Which is not impossible.

[Xerof]

3 or 4 enquiries means no-one will be allowed back in until conclusions are reached. In the meantime, secured creditors will move to protect their interests - thats receivership.

From there the Receivers will prepare it for sale if that's possible. That doesn't mean the share value is zero, nor does it mean that PRC might not be able to trade out of receivership.

Too many uncertainties at this point, and not enough money, to suggest anything else. Any insurance claim will go to the secured creditors - BNZ and NZO might get all their debt repaid, but thats about it at this stage.

Receivership doesn't mean the end of the road, but it's the logical interim step.

[mouse]

3 or 4 enquiries means no-one will be allowed back in until conclusions are reached. In the meantime, secured creditors will move to protect their interests - thats receivership.

The problem for NZOG if Pike does go into receivership is they protect their secured investment, but not the cash put into Pike sharecapital. Receivers control Pike, not NZOG. Who have a great wad of dough to lose. So this is a problem for NZOG, plus Govt who have to make the hard call of either putting in cash or letting Pike dig out 58 million tonnes of coal and clean up afterwards. I would, if Govt, both put in cash AND approve mining all 58 million tonnes of coal.

[Xerof]

It's a problem, yes, but that doesn't change anything - they have a problem.....

So who blinks first to appoint a Receiver -NZO or BNZ?

I'm clearly a little more right wing than you mouse - this is not a taxpayer problem

Peter Whittall is on record as saying it cannot be open cast mined, even if they had approval to do so. I tend to take that as a fairly compelling negative

[Balance]

The rumors being spread into the market about receivership, Peter Whittall resigning etc?

The vultures are circling.

[whatsup]

Pike has rights to 58 million tonnes of coking coal. Profit NZ$100 per tonne gives us NZ$5 billion profit. NZOG will not walk away from their stake, too much to lose. They will sell on if they can get a good price, which could be anything between 40cents and 60 cents a share. If we get a takeover bidding war it could go higher. We have all the roadways and processing plant outside the mine intact. We have West Coast Support to re-open the mine. I suspect we have political support also.
The question is, do we have the political will to prevent Pike falling into being one more NZ asset sold overseas. Govt has to back this one, either directly or indirectly, to get Pike working again.

It will take quite some time to reduce the temperature in the mine so it is safe to enter. It is a little like a thermos flask or oven. Well insulated so time is needed. Then we have to ensure that we have low gas levels. I would hazard late February as a date we can get in. Plus I would think the cash call would happen within the 90 days hold on debt calling in, unless NZOG does another bale out. Which is not impossible.

Mouse IMHO the ONLY future for PRC is as a open cast mine ( as it should always have been ) there is too much history and risk as an under ground mine here, as a open cut it will be a breeze, the so called forest is second or third cut over and not exactly pristine.
The Govt just has to make sense with DOC now, cut the crap and preserve whats really of value here--- lives and the West Coast's future.

[bob.not.a.builder]

Mouse IMHO the ONLY future for PRC is as a open cast mine ( as it should always have been ) there is too much history and risk as an under ground mine here, as a open cut it will be a breeze, the so called forest is second or third cut over and not exactly pristine.
The Govt just has to make sense with DOC now, cut the crap and preserve whats really of value here--- lives and the West Coast's future.

Could that even happen? Peter Whittall himself said it wasn't a option. That added to DoC thinking of open cast mining, doubt it could happen.
I want to believe that if they figure out what went wrong and how to prevent it again the pike river mine will be operational again.

[boysy]

PRC have come out and said the geology is not right to do opencast mining this came from the horses mouth simple as that

[whatsup]

PRC have come out and said the geology is not right to do opencast mining this came from the horses mouth simple as that

Boys.., He was just mouthing the politically correct line, there is simply no other option but to open cast it, as there is just no guarantee that what has happened several weeks ago could happen again and again and again etc, who is going to volinteer to work underground after the third or forth accident the ACC will see that its closed down for goon.

[winner69]

Remember that hole they drilled to see what was going on ... through 150m of hard rock before they got to the tunnel .... I gather the coal is covered by this hard rock cover and that is why they can't open cast mine here .... have to knock the hill down to satrt with.

Might be wrong but thats the impression I have got

[fungus pudding]

Remember that hole they drilled to see what was going on ... through 150m of hard rock before they got to the tunnel .... I gather the coal is covered by this hard rock cover and that is why they can't open cast mine here .... have to knock the hill down to satrt with.

Might be wrong but thats the impression I have got


You're not wrong. Open cast is out of the question with that mine.

[mouse]

You're not wrong. Open cast is out of the question with that mine.
So we are back to Govt backing a rights issue, or NZOG doing a load of dough if Pike goes into receivership. I back Govt telling us we can mine all 58 million tonnes and clean up after. Plus doing conservation work whilst we extract the coal. I imagine NZOG is twisting arms at present. Possibly even paying out a few bribes?

[fish]

So we are back to Govt backing a rights issue, or NZOG doing a load of dough if Pike goes into receivership. I back Govt telling us we can mine all 58 million tonnes and clean up after. Plus doing conservation work whilst we extract the coal. I imagine NZOG is twisting arms at present. Possibly even paying out a few bribes?

Mouse I think you mentioned longwall mining as the way to go . Is it possible to hydromine the longwall .?
It looks as if DOC would oppose longwall because of subsidence above-not that anyone would notice apart from DOC-and then only because prc has put a road in allowing doc access to this area .
Longwall would allow most of the coal to be extracted and therefore a more attractive investment to redevelop into a safer better ventilated mine .

[impacman]

No way they are going to long wall PR. Longwall requires very flat (i.e. non faulted seams) of consistent thickness. The only long wall equipment in NZ lies in the flooded remains of Huntly West Mine (after an explosion there in 1992). Insurance claim took approximately 10yrs to resolve and the owners got not much.

We had a mine at Mt Davy - similar coal quality to PR and in Rununga (not that far from PR relatively speaking) although went down rather than up. Got to 1.8km depth - encountered outbursts (first ever formally recorded in NZ) had three fatalities (from different causes) and finally walked away (flooded the mine). I am not suggesting that the only reason or indeed a significant reason was the outburst/s or fatalities but they did have an influence.

The area is very tricky. At the time I was National H&S Manager for Solid Energy and have subsequently acted as project leader for the development of NZ Codes of Practice for Underground Mining and Tunneling and Surface Mining and Quarrying. You can't underestimate the complexity of safety management in these environments nor the absolute efforts any company that wants to mine goes to to ensure the safety of all personnel. The reality is if you can't guaranttee that then you don't have a business - unlike a lot of other industry sectors where safety can and is often a tack on.

What has happened is a tragedy and our thoughts should still be with the families and members of the PR community. Speculation will not help and I can assure you it will be a long time before anyone understands enough about what happened to be of value to any reopening of the mine - under whatever corporate ownership exists at that time.

Cheers,

I-man

[fish]

Thanks for that expert opinion impacman .
Have no doubt many times a day my thoughts are for those families who have lost loved ones in this tragedy .
However we have to be realistic-prc is likely to be insolvent soon-we may never fully understand this tragedy but clearly lack of ventilation or extraction of the released methane led to an explosive mix .If the mine can be made safe in future it will most likely get funding-but waiting for the outcome of a Royal Inquiry will be too long for prc to stay solvent .
There is a very valuable and accessible resource which the local community wants mined and would be a massive export earner .
As you say safety must be guaranteed. Personally I would invest more in this mine if there was a solution to extracting the methane safely .
I started investing in prc the day they announced the successful start of hydromining thinking naively that it would now be safe with all that water about .
What are your thoughts on this ?

Cheers

[mouse]

Many thanks Impacman. We need some input from people who have mining experience. I have none, but just thought that taking all coal out would mean we did not have 'pockets' of mine workings where methane could build up. Have you any ideas on how long it would be before we can open the mine with some knowledge of safety requirements. Or is it a bit like the length of a piece of string?
Of course the situation is a disaster, but it would also be a disaster if the mine cannot be re-opened safely. Since the impact on West Coast Mining of the mine being abandoned would be incalculable.

[mouse]

I am a bit negative about hydromining. The problem as I see it is hydromining as at Pike requires fairly high voltage electricity to operate the water pressure guns. We then have high voltages and explosive gases combined which must be a bit dangerous. As opposed to using Diesel powered coal mining equipment such as the RBM20. So Fish, things are not simple. However, I do not know enough about mining to venture an opinion on how to progress the mine in the present situation. Certainly things are looking a bit difficult at present. Ideas, comments, please.

[friedegg]

move on,cant be opencast(too diffucult terain),wake up and smell the roses of defeat,,,,,
its probabably worth more now as a tourist venture

[bermuda]

move on,cant be opencast(too diffucult terain),wake up and smell the roses of defeat,,,,,
its probabably worth more now as a tourist venture

My thoughts are with the miners' families and Peter Whittall and his wife and familly.

[STRAT]

No way they are going to long wall PR. Longwall requires very flat (i.e. non faulted seams) of consistent thickness. The only long wall equipment in NZ lies in the flooded remains of Huntly West Mine (after an explosion there in 1992). Insurance claim took approximately 10yrs to resolve and the owners got not much.

We had a mine at Mt Davy - similar coal quality to PR and in Rununga (not that far from PR relatively speaking) although went down rather than up. Got to 1.8km depth - encountered outbursts (first ever formally recorded in NZ) had three fatalities (from different causes) and finally walked away (flooded the mine). I am not suggesting that the only reason or indeed a significant reason was the outburst/s or fatalities but they did have an influence.

The area is very tricky. At the time I was National H&S Manager for Solid Energy and have subsequently acted as project leader for the development of NZ Codes of Practice for Underground Mining and Tunneling and Surface Mining and Quarrying. You can't underestimate the complexity of safety management in these environments nor the absolute efforts any company that wants to mine goes to to ensure the safety of all personnel. The reality is if you can't guaranttee that then you don't have a business - unlike a lot of other industry sectors where safety can and is often a tack on.

What has happened is a tragedy and our thoughts should still be with the families and members of the PR community. Speculation will not help and I can assure you it will be a long time before anyone understands enough about what happened to be of value to any reopening of the mine - under whatever corporate ownership exists at that time.

Cheers,

I-manExcellent Post Iman.
We should do that beer we have been procrastinating over during the break if you are getting one.

[morv]

railtrack lists activity from ikamatua to lyttleton last night and today

[impacman]

Hi Strat, yeah it has been far to long. Just the last couple of weeks to go of a very busy year as it turns out (lots of travel domestically). I am heading down to Oilers neck of the woods for Christmas (Oiler are you going to be around?) but will be back NY's day or thereabouts. Perhaps touch base that week and arrange a visit to Toby's or some other fine institution. Hope all is well with you. Look forward to catching up soon.

Cheers.

[impacman]

Hi Fish and Mouse, I am not a mining engineer but a safety professional with a focus on higher risk industry sectors. I spent about three years with Solid Energy in that role and quite a bit more (although not full time) with Industry bodies leading teams to develop Codes of Practice and Guidelines for the mining/extractive sector.

As to what went wrong we don't know and I suspect it will be some time before we do. What would appear to be without out doubt is that A) we had a build up of CH4 in the explosive range (roughly 5 - 15% in air), and B) an ignition source was present. The only reason I say "it would appear" is that it may have been a dust explosion - but the info that we have had doesn't indicate that. The reasons for these failures will be multiple and I suspect relatively complex. Contributory factors will probably be a mixture of individual, organisational and technical/geological. Dependent on the root causes mining may or may not be able to be carried out in the environment again and until they are clearly understood I don't believe anyone will take the chance.

Hydro mining and the presence of water from the cutting jet and the coal washout process in my view would have little to no impact on CH4 presence or buildup. It is about air change and water volumes are insignificant relative to that.

I agree there is definitely a huge resource there and if it can be accessed safely at some point in the future I have no doubt that PRC (or whoever at the time) and the local community would want to restart operations. It is just now a matter of patience from that perspective.

Cheers,

I-man

Disc. Hold NZO

[mouse]

Many thanks Impac for that comment. But note, water would stop a dust explosion in the area of the water.
To my mind, since there seems to have been no warning given of a build-up of gases, there was an explosion which immediately destroyed the whole of the electrical and electronic system of the mine. One wonders if there is stuck down in the mine some sort of 'black box,' as in aircraft, that would give us some idea of what went wrong. Probably not.
Things are now looking more bleak for the early recovery of the miners.
Plus note that even though we recover the miners, it does not mean the mine is safe to enter for any significant clean-up work to be carried out.
My pessimistic view is we will not be able to start cleaning up the mine until next September at the earliest.
Hence we need Govt to underwrite the rights issue, which must come I suspect within two months.
Of course, NZOG will be desperately trying to sell on their holdings in Pike. But I suspect they will not sell out at less than 50cents a share. Note Pike have very substantial investment above ground, plus the RIGHTS to mine the coal at Pike.
Note, I have lost a few dollars. Only a small amount. Miners have lost their lives. We must make sure, if we can, that this does not happen again. If we cannot be sure, then we do not have a business at Pike.

[fish]

Thanks again I-man .
Fully agree there will be a lot of contributory factors .
The cap is now on but temperatures estimated to be 600 degrees in the mine .
A nitrogen machine is next on the agenda to cool the mine .

cheers

Fish

[blockhead]

Something I can't work out, now the cap is on how will the GAG be able to blow any gas in, if one is to think of the mine tunnel as being similar to a milk bottle lying on its side, how on earth can you blow something in ???

[mouse]

Something I can't work out, now the cap is on how will the GAG be able to blow any gas in, if one is to think of the mine tunnel as being similar to a milk bottle lying on its side, how on earth can you blow something in ???
What I think was happening was that a pressure difference between the outlet of the vent chimney and the mine entrance resulted in, sometimes, the pressure in the mine reversing and new oxygen being introduced into the mine from the ventilation shaft. The thing could almost be a perpetual motion machine, GAG gets rid of the gases, oxygen introduced into the mine, more fire and more exhaust fumes.
Maybe the 'cap' has simple reverse valves fitted so exhaust fumes can leave the mine with the GAG machine working, but oxygen cannot enter it due to the one way valve.

[BWH]

Something I can't work out, now the cap is on how will the GAG be able to blow any gas in, if one is to think of the mine tunnel as being similar to a milk bottle lying on its side, how on earth can you blow something in ???

The way I see it, the atmosphere inside the mine would be inert (or at least outside the flammable range) from the introduction of the gas by the GAG. The cap will mean that it is kept at positive pressure, thus not allowing oxygen to seep back in and meaning that the GAG doesn't have to keep pumping gas in. It just needs to top it up to keep the pressure positive. Much like the ullage space in cargo tanks on ships.

[Monkey Poms]

Remember that hole they drilled to see what was going on ... through 150m of hard rock before they got to the tunnel .... I gather the coal is covered by this hard rock cover and that is why they can't open cast mine here .... have to knock the hill down to satrt with.

Might be wrong but thats the impression I have got

I understand it only took 12 hours to to drill the hole. The rock can't be that hard, a Caterpillar D8 with a ripper on the back will make short work of it. If you do encounter a problem, drill the area and shatter the rock with low grade explosive. The opencast of the Island Block mine situated near Greymouth to me looked a far more difficult challenge to mine, than Pike would be by the opencast method of mining coal.
For every 100m x 100m area of land above mine that you can find with a average overburden of say 110m could reward the efforts of Pike.
100m x 100m x 9m thick coal seam = 90,000 tonne of say 3% low ash :) premium coking coal valued around NZ$ 20,500,000.
I am not sure of the topography of the area above the mine. Should anyone fly over the site they could try to estimate the number of times a 100m square with a low overburden divides into the mining area!
The longwall mining method has successfully been used to mine coal on downhill and uphill gradients, although not at a 9m to 12m thick coal seam without stepping it. As far as I am aware, stepping the cut on the longwall looks to me extremely complicated.
Opencast is the way to go, far safer. Due to this unfortunate disaster, it is time for DOC to do the sensible thing on this occasion and grant Pike the permission to opencast the coal.
I would subscribe to a request from Pike on further fundraising, it would not cost NZ government a cent. The added bonus, Pike could eventually replace those common Rimu trees with something of real beauty such as the Giant Sequoia or better still Kauri trees (if possible) to pass on for the benefit of future generations.

Monkey Poms.

[swissboy]

NZO was requested to put PRC into receivership

[bull....]

In receivership maybe solid energy can buy it?

[blockhead]

Not surprised

[Traderx]

A sad day... the loss of jobs for miners who have seen their mates perish, their families now have to be uprooted again in search of work, not to mention the faithful investors who some have disparaged on this site for their support of the company who have suffered total financial loss of their hard earned asset also.

Hope the future for all concerned is brighter.

[Balance]

Only sensible option left for NZO and PRC to do.

Not a sad day but a day when the coal reserves worth billions could be passed onto to another miner with real expertise and indepth experience to properly mine.

[Baddarcy]

Only sensible option left for NZO and PRC to do.

Agreed, it was inevitable, PRC simply has no cash left and no way to earn anymore.

Guess we will see what happens going forward. Like balance said, the coal is still there, we will see if anyone want it over the next little while.

[mouse]

Pike has rights to 58 million tonnes of coking coal. Profit NZ$100 per tonne gives us NZ$5 billion profit. NZOG will not walk away from their stake, too much to lose. They will sell on if they can get a good price, which could be anything between 40cents and 60 cents a share. If we get a takeover bidding war it could go higher. We have all the roadways and processing plant outside the mine intact. We have West Coast Support to re-open the mine. I suspect we have political support also.
The question is, do we have the political will to prevent Pike falling into being one more NZ asset sold overseas. Govt has to back this one, either directly or indirectly, to get Pike working again.

It will take quite some time to reduce the temperature in the mine so it is safe to enter. It is a little like a thermos flask or oven. Well insulated so time is needed. Then we have to ensure that we have low gas levels. I would hazard late February as a date we can get in. Plus I would think the cash call would happen within the 90 days hold on debt calling in, unless NZOG does another bale out. Which is not impossible.
Totally wrong AGAIN. How did it happen. (Me being wrong again I mean).
However, it has happened within the 90 days.
Next, will the shares start trading again? If so, what will the price be? I pick 10 cents.

[Monkey Poms]

It's been a long, hard slog for investors in Pike. Just at the time we thought we were getting there, it all turned sour.
It would have been a triumph for everyone involved with PRC. However, NZOG have done the right thing, as
Pike have simply run out of money to go forward. I don't think the Government had the guts to offer the
possibility of open-casting the mine.
I hope something turns up for the Pike miners who are made redundant.

Monkey Poms

[shasta]

Only sensible option left for NZO and PRC to do.

Not a sad day but a day when the coal reserves worth billions could be passed onto to another miner with real expertise and indepth experience to properly mine.

What about the Indian shareholders & NZO, surely they will get first bite at it

[friedegg]

the pike story from start to end would make an excellent tv mini series,and im being serious

[Harry Potter]

Geologist has advice for Pike River Coal investors
By ALAN WOOD - The Press | Tuesday, 29 May 2007

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Advertisement

AdvertisementA West Coast geologist is warning mum-and-dad investors not to get excited about the Pike River Coal (PRC) share float, given the mine's potential for production delays.


Murry Cave, a geologist with Western Exploration, said mining investments on the West Coast were generally risky, as experienced by state-owned coalminer Solid Energy.

However, PRC was an exciting new venture with a highly experienced management team, as well as good partners in terms of financial backing, Cave said yesterday.

"They've got a fairly professional team. I hope they get it all up and running, but I just think it's a bit of a big ask," he said.

"(One risk) is to do with over-ambitious mining targets ... nobody in New Zealand has yet managed to mine in underground the type of tonnages of coal Pike River is anticipating," he said.

Investors should pause and consider the overall situation carefully before participating in the upcoming PRC float. But people with knowledge of the risk could "go for it".

PRC has already had several delays to a planned initial public offering (IPO) of shares. Its executive team has registered a prospectus, and has a listing timetable that aims to have shares trading from July 20.

Cave said some of the geological risks included:

A 2km-plus drive through hard rock "which is already proving to be slower going than anticipated".

The presence of an active fault that needed to be crossed underground, presenting a zone of considerable and sustained ground stresses.

A pit bottom with deep highly gassy coals and the associated risk of "outburst". Gas pressure-forced explosive events at the coal face.

A degree of uncertainty about the difficulties in accessing the resource because of the geological structure, plus the risk of environmental damage from subsidence and "acid mine drainage".

These risks did not necessarily mean the mine would not be a success, he said.

From 2000-04 Cave was an adviser on the Pike River mine to land owner the Department of Conservation as part of resource consent and access issues.

PRC chairman John Dow said as a trained geologist he disagreed with some of Cave's assumptions, notably that there was an active fault through the mine. The fault was not active, and in very old rock, he said.

Dow said Pike River was a different proposition from some of Solid Energy's mines on the West Coast. It was shallower and without some of the other potential problems like "outburst" that Cave had presented.

"The concerns he has are generic concerns ... he's abstracted circumstances from other operations and used them as they'd be directly relevant to Pike, but the reality is they aren't directly relevant to Pike," Dow said. "The tunnel that we are drilling at the moment up to the coal seam is in hard rock, but we all know it is in hard rock ... we've budgeted and the timing is based on that knowledge."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4076117a6430.html

Remember this post from 2007. And the response it got?

[winner69]

Even Sniper was accused of being Dr Cave .... as he warned of high gas counts and rock overhangs etc well before cave went public

But then again Sniper was generally correct on any subject he made comment on

[skid]

hindsight is a wonderful thing-anyone up for some Equitycorp ? We may look back and talk about the buying opportunity of a lifetime just before Christmas 2010-but right now its sadness for the minors-the workers-and the shareholders

[winner69]

Wonder if Whittall still has a job?

[duncan macgregor]

hindsight is a wonderful thing-anyone up for some Equitycorp ? We may look back and talk about the buying opportunity of a lifetime just before Christmas 2010-but right now its sadness for the minors-the workers-and the shareholders PRC was always a high risk venture with all the warning signals of an economic disaster along the way.
Remember the barges with double handling, then the change to railing it to the opposite side of the island. Remember how much it cost to get power connected to the site when it was miles cheaper to generate it them selves with no chance of a fatal power cut. If that was not warning enough, think back at all the broken promises made right up to the end. The explosion was another example of total incompetance, surely in this day and age we have progressed past the canary in the cage of yesteryear, as the safety measures taken in a gas outburst. Then the shambles of a rescue, or should I say a non rescue. There is a time window to get in and out to at least see if there are any survivors. If the mine is on fire or whatever you dont pass the buck to some flat foot plod to make the decisions. Then we have NZO in there wisdom throwing good share holders money after bad, followed by pulling the pin on PRC. Sorry guys the only sympathy I have is with the poor miners who were abandoned in their moment of need, by the biggest bunch of incompetant wallers bestowed on the poor gullable investing community. Macdunk

[Kees]

PRC was always a high risk venture with all the warning signals of an economic disaster along the way.
Remember the barges with double handling, then the change to railing it to the opposite side of the island. Remember how much it cost to get power connected to the site when it was miles cheaper to generate it them selves with no chance of a fatal power cut. If that was not warning enough, think back at all the broken promises made right up to the end. The explosion was another example of total incompetance, surely in this day and age we have progressed past the canary in the cage of yesteryear, as the safety measures taken in a gas outburst. Then the shambles of a rescue, or should I say a non rescue. There is a time window to get in and out to at least see if there are any survivors. If the mine is on fire or whatever you dont pass the buck to some flat foot plod to make the decisions. Then we have NZO in there wisdom throwing good share holders money after bad, followed by pulling the pin on PRC. Sorry guys the only sympathy I have is with the poor miners who were abandoned in their moment of need, by the biggest bunch of incompetant wallers bestowed on the poor gullable investing community. Macdunk

Now pike has put the problem of recovering the bodies on to the govt and Key said they might plug the mine .
That's why plod no longer in charge because they were footing the bill.

[Kees]

Did all the govt sponsored/greenie red tape (and money spent on compliance) mean that some of the money that should have been spent ensuring higher servivability in the event of a disaster didn't get spent as it went on pacifying other? ... I.e. Is NZ legislation so badly squewed in the greenie's favour that

a) mining in NZ will never be the business it should be, thus leaving billions under the ground?
b) govt and greenies have had a hand in this unfortunate tradegy?

B seems a good theory

[kiwitrev]

The Receivers' responsibility is to preserve the assets of the company, primarily for the benefit of the debenture holder, NZO but having regard to all creditors. Receivers act in a predictable manner. They have basically two options, trade a company or realise the assets. In the case of PRC there is only one option, to realise assets (are there any?). Their objective is to realise, in an ideal world,firstly,sufficient of the assets (not necessarily all) of a company in order to extinguish the debenture holders' debt. If this is achieved they are required to resign from their appointment. In these circumstances the usual practice is that any other creditor can apply to the courts to have a Liquidator appointed(a liquidator can be appointed at any time during a receivership however the Receiver still retains control of the company-an option for BNZ) and a Receiver can massage this process. If a sale of assets produces surplus funds,having regard to other costs sustained during the receivership like employee entitlements(as required by law-not at the whim of the Receiver), professional fees and any other payments made, these funds will be passed back to the company who then have the option of trading on or calling for the appointment of a liquidator. Any surplus funds are passed to the Liquidator. The PRC receivership will not be a standard 'run of the mill' situation. Time, and events over time will be the dominant factor. The various enquiries will take at least two years and it is difficult to envisage, assuming the mine is able to be made operational again, that it could be before all enquiries are completed. It is extremely unlikely that funds currently at the disposal of the Receiver would be sufficient over this time frame without a further injection from NZO. On the basis that the mine could be made workable again the Receiver could make all necessary rectification required to prepare the mine for sale. Of course the Receiver cannot know the outcome of the enquiries or if the mine can be operational again so it would seem that this course as an option is not an option. In the same vein any insurance payout is unlikely to be made before all enquiries completed and there may not be any payout. This leaves the only asset the Receiver has is the mine itself. The Receiver will be reluctant to be in office any longer than necessary and will be looking for an offer asap but of course who would want to buy a mine that may never be allowed or be able to be mined(assuming open cast cannot be done-DOC another complication).The only bidders are likely to be NZO and the two Indian SSH. Any offers are likely to be on a debt for equity basis-no exchange of funds.Any other scenario is unlikely unless the government decides to get involved(for the benefit of the West Coast?) and in any event time is a huge factor.The main point of this post is to demonstrate the constraints under which the Receiver is required to act and what forces come into play over time.

[Oiler]

Hi Strat, yeah it has been far to long. Just the last couple of weeks to go of a very busy year as it turns out (lots of travel domestically). I am heading down to Oilers neck of the woods for Christmas (Oiler are you going to be around?) but will be back NY's day or thereabouts. Perhaps touch base that week and arrange a visit to Toby's or some other fine institution. Hope all is well with you. Look forward to catching up soon.

Cheers.

I Man thanks for giving all the arm chair experts something factual to think about. Unfortunately there are so many experts when tragedy strikes.

Will be around over the holidays and look forward to a catchup.... check your PM

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Maybe all green Voters should pay an environment Tax of $1000.00 per year to make up for the extra costs they are causing everybody else.

[Under Surveillance]

What will happen to the snails?

[Kees]

What will happen to the snails?

DOC will spent another 15mill to put them back and make the mine a tourism destination
and the greenies will dance around the maypole once a year.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Quote Originally Posted by Sideshow Bob View Post
Geologist has advice for Pike River Coal investors
By ALAN WOOD - The Press | Tuesday, 29 May 2007

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AdvertisementA West Coast geologist is warning mum-and-dad investors not to get excited about the Pike River Coal (PRC) share float, given the mine's potential for production delays.


Murry Cave, a geologist with Western Exploration, said mining investments on the West Coast were generally risky, as experienced by state-owned coalminer Solid Energy.

However, PRC was an exciting new venture with a highly experienced management team, as well as good partners in terms of financial backing, Cave said yesterday.

"They've got a fairly professional team. I hope they get it all up and running, but I just think it's a bit of a big ask," he said.

"(One risk) is to do with over-ambitious mining targets ... nobody in New Zealand has yet managed to mine in underground the type of tonnages of coal Pike River is anticipating," he said.

Investors should pause and consider the overall situation carefully before participating in the upcoming PRC float. But people with knowledge of the risk could "go for it".

PRC has already had several delays to a planned initial public offering (IPO) of shares. Its executive team has registered a prospectus, and has a listing timetable that aims to have shares trading from July 20.

Cave said some of the geological risks included:

A 2km-plus drive through hard rock "which is already proving to be slower going than anticipated".

The presence of an active fault that needed to be crossed underground, presenting a zone of considerable and sustained ground stresses.

A pit bottom with deep highly gassy coals and the associated risk of "outburst". Gas pressure-forced explosive events at the coal face.

A degree of uncertainty about the difficulties in accessing the resource because of the geological structure, plus the risk of environmental damage from subsidence and "acid mine drainage".

These risks did not necessarily mean the mine would not be a success, he said.

From 2000-04 Cave was an adviser on the Pike River mine to land owner the Department of Conservation as part of resource consent and access issues.

PRC chairman John Dow said as a trained geologist he disagreed with some of Cave's assumptions, notably that there was an active fault through the mine. The fault was not active, and in very old rock, he said.

Dow said Pike River was a different proposition from some of Solid Energy's mines on the West Coast. It was shallower and without some of the other potential problems like "outburst" that Cave had presented.

"The concerns he has are generic concerns ... he's abstracted circumstances from other operations and used them as they'd be directly relevant to Pike, but the reality is they aren't directly relevant to Pike," Dow said. "The tunnel that we are drilling at the moment up to the coal seam is in hard rock, but we all know it is in hard rock ... we've budgeted and the timing is based on that knowledge."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4076117a6430.html

Extraordinary from 2007 - I've never seen that before. Dr Cave absolutely nailed every single thing that went wrong with the mine, long before we ever heard of a 'graben', and he got poo-pooed and rubbished by John Dow.

I have to say that out of the whole Pike River mess with it's almost unbelievable incompetence & ignorance of risk, personally I believe John Dow would have to be one of slimiest and reptilian of the whole bunch. He should be forced to go back and read all of the crap he said back in 2007. Had he actually acknowledged the genuine concerns raised back then we would have saved hundreds of millions of dollars and a heap of human lives.

A pit bottom with deep highly gassy coals and the associated risk of outburst: yup, that's what is was alright. Chilling stuff right there.

I am sincerely hoping that the coming enquiry will bring to book each one of these incompetents who were so reckless and so economical with the truth when it came to explaining what the hell was going on. Now that the mine has gone into receivership and the workers all made redundant every one who knows something has no reason to keep it secret. I hope everyone speaks up and the greedy ratbags behind this fiasco are hung out to dry so that something like this never happens again.

[skid]

How many times are we going to have to read this?? Also to be fair guys,regardless of what any of us think of DOC-thats the rules we have to work under ATM.PRC decided too ahead with things under these circumstances,and we decided to buy in as well.Its a little late to be passing the blame now

[Baddarcy]

Heard on the radio this mornig that the Mayor of Greymouth (sorry can't spell his name) was in Wellington today to meet the Minister Gerry Brownlee and one of the things on the agenda was for Pike to be allowed to open cast mine.

I wish the Mayor luck, but suspect his chances of success are slim.

[whirly]

"Piker River chairman John Dow said the Pike River board had been due to announce a bid to raise $70m in capital on November 25, which would have seen the company through until the middle of 2011.

The "scuttling" of the firm's fundraising was the reason for the receivership, not just the explosion and loss of cash flow and revenue, he said."

I don't recall this being mentioned at their AGM.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/4459069/More-help-sought-for-Pike-River-miners

W

[Snapper]

Heard on the radio this mornig that the Mayor of Greymouth (sorry can't spell his name) was in Wellington today to meet the Minister Gerry Brownlee and one of the things on the agenda was for Pike to be allowed to open cast mine.

I wish the Mayor luck, but suspect his chances of success are slim.

Also heard Kathryn Ryan talking to Rod Oram about PRC and the chances of getting NZO to stump up more money for the miners and suppliers and/or relinquish their position as a secured creditor in favour of the miners/suppliers. They talked about "privatising profits and socialising losses" while the tenor of the conversation suggested that NZO as majority shareholder had some sort of moral obligation to front up with more cash...hopefully the board of NZO will manfully resist such calls as I wouldn't feel too happy about them giving away more of my money when there is no legal obligation to do so. That's where the Ltd comes in, doesn't it?

[percy]

Christchurch artist Lisa Wisse has donated a beautiful painting to Pike River fund. Limted edition prints of the painting can be ordered from her.Profits go to Pike River trust Fund. 300x400 $300 , 400x600 $500.
www.lisawisse.co.nz Well Done Lisa.

[Monkey Poms]

Heard on the radio this mornig that the Mayor of Greymouth (sorry can't spell his name) was in Wellington today to meet the Minister Gerry Brownlee and one of the things on the agenda was for Pike to be allowed to open cast mine.

I wish the Mayor luck, but suspect his chances of success are slim.

Hats off to the mayor of Graymouth for being pro active and forward thinking on this one.

The very least the goverment could do is to ask Pike to prepare a draft plan and feasibility study for the possibility of opencasting the site. Should the study results prove negative, that will surely be the end. A positive result and Pike could still have a future.

With the prospect of mining all the coal safely I would welcome the opportunity to participate in a new share issue. A glimmer of hope we may finaly be able to cut down those third rate common Rimu trees and eventually replace them with Giant Redwoods or better still Kauri trees.

Monkey Poms.

[bull....]

Talk about milking it

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/4463568/UBS-likely-source-for-chunk-of-70m-loan



Information received by The Press also shows the provision of services by Dow to Pike River meant he was being paid at the rate of $400 per hour. In September he gave advice and services worth more than $24,000.
It is understood that during a "transition" period both Dow and director Stuart Nattrass were being paid advisory services.
Dow also received director's fees for his role of being chairman of the company. In the year to June 30, 2010 he was paid $80,000 out of total directors fees of $315,000.


and now we must do our job for free



This week Dow said directors would keep working during the receivership process, but it was unlikely he or other directors would be paid.

[minimoke]

The very least the goverment could do is to ask Pike to prepare a draft plan and feasibility study for the possibility of opencasting the site. Should the study results prove negative, that will surely be the end. A positive result and Pike could still have a future.
.
The prospect of Pike being open cast is absolutely nil. Pikers who hold onto this hope would be better to spend their time chasing the end of a rainbow - there will be a better chance of finding a pot of gold than an open seam of coal.

Earlier this year the government dipped its toes into the prospect of mining minerals in DOC land. They turned out to be more Lilly livered than I thought and turned those toes up at the slightest hint of opposition. The government has absolutely no appetite whatsoever for mining conservation land.

But lets stay in dreamland for a moment, can anyone conceptualize the problems with open cast on DOC land. Take a moment to consider the effort that has gone to save the snails. The moment a greeny discovers a rare three legged treefrog or a longfin Anguilla australis in a nearby steam the cash already invested in PRC is going to look like small change. Lets also dream that Greymouth has heartland National voter support - well that dream would need some pretty major hallucinogenics to get that far. The absolute max is 44,000 votes and that's not going to happen in the birthplace of Labour. While we are dreaming lets drift away into the land of sustainable logging of west coast timber. At the moment there is no chance of that happening - so how is it that opencast could become a possibility.

If people are really keen on investing on the coast I know of a plastic block ("Lego") factory over there that will happily take your money

[winner69]

Big picture of things economic impact on West Coast of Pike disaster not that great .... job losses occur all the time .... Gisborne saw mill workers and Te Aroha meat workers know what it is like.

Why is it that when the 'capitalists' amongst us who invest (and take the risks) in something to make them zillions expect the government to bail them when it turns to custard ... is that governments job?

There was some guy raving on the other day that for NZ to be successful the government needs to be totally right or totally left .... middle ground pamapering to all won't work. I tend to agree

[MrDevine]

Brownlee now saying Pike can be open cast. I'd say they'd (National) will use Pike as an opportunity to take the high ground back in the mining in National Parks debate, cynical, but smart politics, and it seems as per comments on this board, and NBR that they'd have a lot of support, will be a contentious issue:

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/open-cast-pike-river-mine-option-134881

[minimoke]

Brownlee now saying Pike can be open cast. I'd say they'd (National) will use Pike as an opportunity to take the high ground back in the mining in National Parks debate, cynical, but smart politics, and it seems as per comments on this board, and NBR that they'd have a lot of support, will be a contentious issue:

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/open-cast-pike-river-mine-option-134881
MRDevine, you need to realize that Mr Brownlee isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. However as a front bench brawler he has got political-speak down to a reasonably fine art form. Which is why he'll be fronting these media calls rather than Kate Wilkinson - who is sharp but not that good at the political speak.

If we look at what Mr Brownlee has really said is:
While there is a 100% certainty that Pike could be open cast there is also a 100% certainty National will not go there.

While it is an an option that can be considered it is by far more preferable to consider the idea of considering the feasibility of Pike as open cast.

Next year is election year - there is no way we are going to be doing any kind of consideration of anything remotely contentious during this time.

Chris is an MP in a marginal seat. We will do what it takes to create a veneer of concern to secure whatever votes we can.

In 12 months I won't be Minster of Energy

[Lizard]

I see the panel has elected to remove PRC from the NZX index at a value of 0 cents per share.

I'm not sure what date the change in price from the current 88cps takes effect on the index, but presumably from the date of the 20th when the changes come into effect and could impact the index that day?

[winner69]

I see the panel has elected to remove PRC from the NZX index at a value of 0 cents per share.

I'm not sure what date the change in price from the current 88cps takes effect on the index, but presumably from the date of the 20th when the changes come into effect and could impact the index that day?

Probably wont affect the index as the weighting PRC had (at 88 cents?) is replaced with the same weighting for SKL .... and everything carries on as if nothing had happened .... I think that is how the maths work but could be completely and utterly wrong so take this as the gospel

Sort of like the NZX50 didn't 'lose' any money because of PRC ......

Suvivorship bias is an interesting subject

[Lizard]

I don't think so Winner. I think that was the whole point of making the decision on the exit price... they were tossing up between 88cps, 21cps and 0cps.

So, as I see it, PRC falls to 0c in the index and then leaves - and the remaining index value then gets reassigned over index constituents (including SKL) based on normal weighting criteria (i.e. everyone squishes up a bit to make room for SKL).

[Wiremu]

Monkey Poms,

Interesting comments on opencasting - instead of 18 million tonnes of coal being available from underground mining something like 80% of the total coal reserves of 58 million tonnes would be available, say 46 million tonnes. Thats an extra NZ$8 billion give or take a dollar or two, and that would certainly cover the cost of a fleet of heavy earthmoving and coalmining equipment.

[minimoke]

Monkey Poms,

Interesting comments on opencasting - instead of 18 million tonnes of coal being available from underground mining something like 80% of the total coal reserves of 58 million tonnes would be available, say 46 million tonnes. Thats an extra NZ$8 billion give or take a dollar or two, and that would certainly cover the cost of a fleet of heavy earthmoving and coalmining equipment.
Wiremu
I'm not sure you're getting the point. The postage stamp size of low value DOC land the govt was proposing to open up was worth an estimated $140b. The govt backed out of that idea faster than greased lightening. $8b just ain't going to cut it!

[Beagle]

Wiremu
I'm not sure you're getting the point. The postage stamp size of low value DOC land the govt was proposing to open up was worth an estimated $140b. The govt backed out of that idea faster than greased lightening. $8b just ain't going to cut it!

I think they've actually realised we're still in this GFC well and truly and going down the gurgler since that flip flop. New Zealand needs to get real quickly and realise you can't run deficits of $15billion per year for long without going down the Spain path.

Its high time we took a far more pragmatic view of extracting the maximum from our natural resources rather than so many do gooder greenies having the final say over a couple of snails or birds.

I think if it can be open cast the only people who would actually notice would be the pig hunters in the region so lets get on with it. Its not like the mine is in the middle of the Milford Track is it !!

[J R Ewing]

Wiremu
I'm not sure you're getting the point. The postage stamp size of low value DOC land the govt was proposing to open up was worth an estimated $140b. The govt backed out of that idea faster than greased lightening. $8b just ain't going to cut it!

Minimoke, I think you need to wake up. The "postage stamp on eden park" analogy was based on the premise of eco-friendly mining much like what PRC was supposed to be. What we have got out of PRC is:

a/ Very little coal out of the ground at horrendous cost including loss of life, and
b/ A company in receivership that isn't going to be able to follow through on its commitment to make good the landscape.

Do you think this is some sort of moral premise for sending bulldozers through our national parks?

[robo]

Also heard Kathryn Ryan talking to Rod Oram about PRC and the chances of getting NZO to stump up more money for the miners and suppliers and/or relinquish their position as a secured creditor in favour of the miners/suppliers. They talked about "privatising profits and socialising losses" while the tenor of the conversation suggested that NZO as majority shareholder had some sort of moral obligation to front up with more cash...hopefully the board of NZO will manfully resist such calls as I wouldn't feel too happy about them giving away more of my money when there is no legal obligation to do so. That's where the Ltd comes in, doesn't it?
that could depend on what the investigation into the causes of 29 men losing there lives brings up

[COLIN]

I think they've actually realised we're still in this GFC well and truly and going down the gurgler since that flip flop. New Zealand needs to get real quickly and realise you can't run deficits of $15billion per year for long without going down the Spain path.

Its high time we took a far more pragmatic view of extracting the maximum from our natural resources rather than so many do gooder greenies having the final say over a couple of snails or birds.

I think if it can be open cast the only people who would actually notice would be the pig hunters in the region so lets get on with it. Its not like the mine is in the middle of the Milford Track is it !!

Agree whole-heartedly with your sentiments, Roger.

Its time that someone with the necessary mana - a Winston Churchill - stood up and got the country behind him/her and introduced some economic realism into this country. How long can we afford to pussyfoot around with a shrill minority who oppose:
- dairy farming expansion
- mining on even fragments of land, within a vast conservation estate
- coal-fired power stations
- hydro generation of electricity
- wind farms
- irrigation
- genetic modification of crops
- selective and sustainable felling of native trees

You name it, "they" are against it!

[shane_m]

what are the chances of Radford etc going to jail? well what is the maximum punishment that can be given to directors for negligence in mine safety?

[Monkey Poms]

Monkey Poms,

Interesting comments on opencasting - instead of 18 million tonnes of coal being available from underground mining something like 80% of the total coal reserves of 58 million tonnes would be available, say 46 million tonnes. Thats an extra NZ$8 billion give or take a dollar or two, and that would certainly cover the cost of a fleet of heavy earthmoving and coalmining equipment.

Wiremu, the good news, Pike could get nearly all of the heavy earthmoving equipment from Caterpillar, who are offering finance at the rate of 3% if the equipment is purchased in $US Dollars and a 10% downpayment.

The bad news, due to the high demand for Caterpiller products a six month lead in time is required from the date of invoice to the delivery of equipment. This should not be too much of a problem, planning consent as i know from personal experience in NZ could take years, the legal profession will make a fortune out of this, by passing bits of paper back and forward's. It is good to know that for the moment foreigners are able and willing to finance your governments debt. When the s*** hits the fan, only then can you expect politicians to emerge from their slumber.

Pike is a special case.

Monkey Poms.

[minimoke]

I think they've actually realised we're still in this GFC well and truly and going down the gurgler since that flip flop. New Zealand needs to get real quickly and realise you can't run deficits of $15billion per year for long without going down the Spain path.

Its high time we took a far more pragmatic view of extracting the maximum from our natural resources rather than so many do gooder greenies having the final say over a couple of snails or birds.

I think if it can be open cast the only people who would actually notice would be the pig hunters in the region so lets get on with it. Its not like the mine is in the middle of the Milford Track is it !!
You are right of course Roger. But remember you are talking about a government whose best idea of getting out of the GFC was a cycle way. Who likes cycle ways? Outdoorsy people. Do they like the idea of open cast mines going through their pristine bike tracks? No!.

You might remember, when the govt floated the idea of mining DOC land they banged on about being on par with Australia and that the mines would help get us there. That was only a few months ago and loathe as I may be to do so I do credit the govt with sufficient intellect to know we were still right up **** creek as far as the GFC was concerned. Yet they backed out of that idea so quickly it is quite apparent they are spineless with regard to touching DOC land.

I don't want to feed the pikers dream, but lets hypothesize for a moment. Who here really thinks Gerry Brownlee is the person to be selling the idea of open cast to the electorate. He could not sell water to an arab so my vote is - no chance!

[minimoke]

Pike is a special case.

Monkey Poms.
Monkey Poms.
The other day a meat works burnt down to the ground in Te Aroha ( a poxy wee town outside Hamilton - which in turn can hardly be described as a great metropils) 350 workers lost their jobs. Meat works support the primary agricultural industry with meat still an important export product.

Yesterday 10 workers in the Inland Revenue Department in Greymouth were made redundant.

Yesterday 80 workers in a saw mill in Ohakune lost their jobs while the value of raw logs heads north. A few days earlier 26 other people lost their jobs in Kawerau.

Should the govt step in and rebuild the meat works. Should the govt retract the IRD redundancies. Should the govt step in and invest more in forestry? If you want the govt to step in what makes Pike more compelling than any other business thats in the poo.

[J R Ewing]

Agree whole-heartedly with your sentiments, Roger.

Its time that someone with the necessary mana - a Winston Churchill - stood up and got the country behind him/her and introduced some economic realism into this country. How long can we afford to pussyfoot around with a shrill minority who oppose:
- dairy farming expansion
- mining on even fragments of land, within a vast conservation estate
- coal-fired power stations
- hydro generation of electricity
- wind farms
- irrigation
- genetic modification of crops
- selective and sustainable felling of native trees

You name it, "they" are against it!

Colin, "fragments of land, within a vast conservation estate"? Unlike Australia, NZ is not a vast country - there is no vast wasteland to exploit. And if Pike has shown anything, it is that eco-friendly, low-impact mining is going to be difficult. Listening to some on this board proposing open cast in National Parks is enough to make me consider voting green in the next election (shudder).

[minimoke]

what are the chances of Radford etc going to jail?
Absolutely zero. I've no idea how many people in FBU (for example) have died, but its a few and the worst they got was a $0.25m fine and they had the ability to pay.

[minimoke]

Minimoke, I think you need to wake up.
JR, I'm awake. Its others who are dreaming

[COLIN]

Colin, "fragments of land, within a vast conservation estate"? Unlike Australia, NZ is not a vast country - there is no vast wasteland to exploit.

I'm sorry, I should have said "tiny fragments of land". Even 7,000 acres is just a tiny, tiny, fragment of the total area of the National Parks.

[Beagle]

Colin,

I'm not so sure about the genetically modified crops but yeah I couldn't agree more with what you've said, we desperatly need a massive dose of economic realism in New Zealand.

Minimoke - Key was originally talking about an area of DOC land the equilivent to a post card peice of Eden Park, I don't get it, what part of that is so difficult for the greenies to understand ? Surely we can't all plat our hair and wear grass skirts and be on the dole in Timbucktoo somewhere.

Interesting that just a hint yesterday from Brownlee of the possibility of open cast at Pike and NZO spiked up 4 cents yesterday.

I think what makes the PRC case special in comparison to events at say Te Aroha is that 29 people lost their lives. Wouldn't it be a good thing as a tribute to them, so that they didn't die in vain if the mine was allowed to be open cast and extracted many billions of dollars of coal and conferred enduring economic benifets to the Coast and the families who have sufferred there ?

There's no question the Government are really shocked by the size of the revised and projected deficit and now is the perfect time for a massive dose of economic realism but has Mr Key got the stomach for it in an election year, I reckon not, but maybe come early 2012 we might see the more pragmatic approach so desperatly needed ?

[Balance]

Colin,

I'm not so sure about the genetically modified crops but yeah I couldn't agree more with what you've said, we desperatly need a massive dose of economic realism in New Zealand.

Minimoke - Key was originally talking about an area of DOC land the equilivent to a post card peice of Eden Park, I don't get it, what part of that is so difficult for the greenies to understand ? Surely we can't all plat our hair and wear grass skirts and be on the dole in Timbucktoo somewhere.

Interesting that just a hint yesterday from Brownlee of the possibility of open cast at Pike and NZO spiked up 4 cents yesterday.

I think what makes the PRC case special in comparison to events at say Te Aroha is that 29 people lost their lives. Wouldn't it be a good thing as a tribute to them, so that they didn't die in vain if the mine was allowed to be open cast and extracted many billions of dollars of coal and conferred enduring economic benifets to the Coast and the families who have sufferred there ?

There's no question the Government are really shocked by the size of the revised and projected deficit and now is the perfect time for a massive dose of economic realism but has Mr Key got the stomach for it in an election year, I reckon not, but maybe come early 2012 we might see the more pragmatic approach so desperatly needed ?

Was at a function in Gisborne when one of the Greenies started arguing with us about the 'sins' of modern society and the environmental disasters being exacted by the Indians and Chinese and other third world countries due to their desire to achieve higher standards of living.

I looked at his pony tail and his obligatory Maori greenstone fish hook pendant. asked him if he drove a car (yes), owned a fridge (yes), traveled (yes) and used electricity (yes). I asked him if he was prepared to NOT buy any Chinese, Indian or third world goods - knowing full well the bugger was wearing and using such goods. I asked him why is he then begrudging third world hardworking citizens from achieving higher living standards? He stopped arguing with us.

Hypocrites of the worse kind, the Greenies.

[J R Ewing]

Colin,

Interesting that just a hint yesterday from Brownlee of the possibility of open cast at Pike and NZO spiked up 4 cents yesterday.

I think what makes the PRC case special in comparison to events at say Te Aroha is that 29 people lost their lives. Wouldn't it be a good thing as a tribute to them, so that they didn't die in vain if the mine was allowed to be open cast and extracted many billions of dollars of coal and conferred enduring economic benifets to the Coast and the families who have sufferred there ?

There's no question the Government are really shocked by the size of the revised and projected deficit and now is the perfect time for a massive dose of economic realism but has Mr Key got the stomach for it in an election year, I reckon not, but maybe come early 2012 we might see the more pragmatic approach so desperatly needed ?

PRC got the consent to mine the coal on DOC land on the basis of minimal environmental impact. That hasn't worked. Why does that now mean that we should bulldoze the national park as some sort of tribute to the lost miners?

I don't understand you logic.

A while ago Brownlee suggested that modern mining was so surgical that the footprint if we (sensitively) mined the national parks was equivalent to a postcard (or stamp) on Eden Park. PRC has shown that maybe these surgical techniques are not up to the task. Open cast mining in the national parks wouldn't be a close resemblance to this postcard analogy - except in that postcards might be the only remnant of the previous landscape!

[blockhead]

I'm not sure what happens next, as a shareholder of 53,000 odd PRC options can I expect a letter from Mr Fisk saying, Dear Blocky, all your shares are worthless or will he say, Dear Blocky, all your shares are worthless at the moment but we might end up selling the mine and getting a big insurance payout and perhaps there could be a few bob for you away down the track ?

[Xerof]

Interesting that just a hint yesterday from Brownlee of the possibility of open cast at Pike and NZO spiked up 4 cents yesterday.


Is he spruiking it to sell into? - weasel words by the pollies

[Xerof]

Blocky, the Receivers first concern is for the Preferred and Secured Creditors, who rank in front of unsecured creditors and shareholders. Once the've cleared those off the ledger, they'll hand the carcass back to Directors to decide where they take it from there - but this will be years away, not months, so oppies are goneburgers, with probably a similar fate stacking up for the ords.

My view is voluntary liquidation follows the receivership - I have no bias, just trying to be realistic.

[Monkey Poms]

[QUOTE=minimoke;330382]Monkey Poms.
The other day a meat works burnt down to the ground in Te Aroha ( a poxy wee town outside Hamilton - which in turn can hardly be described as a great metropils) 350 workers lost their jobs. Meat works support the primary agricultural industry with meat still an important export product.
Yesterday 10 workers in the Inland Revenue Department in Greymouth were made redundant.

Hi Minimoke. The compelling difference between the unfortunate people working in the businesses you described and the Pike workers
is that should the government allow Pike to opencast the coal, it would not cost your government a cent. I am sure that the major shareholders of Pike and most of Pike's smaller investors would stump up the cash to support the mine and the West Coast community.

Take a look at what is going on in the real world; the high debt countries are struggling, the result - retirement age up, pensions cut, wages cut, unemployment benefits cut. The English Lake District is one of the most beautiful places on earth, yet over the decades the area has witnessed lead, slate, dolomite, coal & iron mining and the land has been restored to pristine condition.
If you really think that your politicians are not capable of organising the DOC to manage and implement the restoration of the
landscape around Pike as I have seen our English countryside restored, it may be better to wait until you have some decent politicians.

Should your government be forced to cut benefits sometime in the future, due to NZ's ballooning debt, you will usually find that those who shout the most squeal the most when they are being squeezed. I think Balance nailed the stereotypical Greenie, who can only see one side of the matter. We have plenty in the U.K.and some, not all, are a bunch of hypocrites, who put little into society but take everything out. It would be a bad day for NZ if everyone just gave up and signed on the dole.

Monkey Poms

[J R Ewing]

Monkey poms,

You say that over the decades the Lake District hass seen all this various mining. That's a little misleading, you really should say over the centuries - some of it dates back to Roman times.

Perhaps you can give us some examples of open cast mining in the Lake District similar to what you propose for Pike and the NZ National Parks?

[minimoke]

[QUOTE=minimoke;330382]
If you really think that your politicians are not capable of organising the DOC to manage and implement the restoration of the
landscape around Pike as I have seen our English countryside restored, it may be better to wait until you have some decent politicians.

Monkey Poms. I have no view on whether this particular piece of DOC land should be opened up to opencast.Though I do tend to have little sympathy for the rare Slimeless TreeSlug or Purple Spotted Dotterill that may live in the undergrowth near by if consideration for those rare beasts unreasonably impedes the economic development of our nation.

But i do hold the view that the politicians who are currently in government do not have the political will to consider mining DOC land. Until they gain that will there is no point whatsoever hanging onto the merest possibility that may eventually mean DOC will open the land up.

Just a couple of other points. I seem to recall that the cost to open cast Pike would be quite high. Can't recall where I saw that detail but I think its buried in this thread somewhere. Its a totally moot point - regardless, Pike will never be open cast.

Clearly people here are hanging desperately to the hope that DOC will open the land up and an agreement will be reached for the remediation of the land. To those people I say "Open your Eyes". PRC is stuffed - it does not even the money now to extract their dead miners. How do you propose to convince the politicians that a new player will have the wherewithal to remediate if things go bad.

I can assure you that we will have a very long wait for decent politicians - its not going to happen in your life time.

[glennj]

Look guys forget about opencasting Pike! Let alone that DOC won't agree and there probably isn't the political will it is just not suitable. I've worked up there doing vegetation surveys & it is montane terrain with high rainfall. The depth of hard rock overburden would be a challenge & at least two of the exploration geologists have said it is unsuitable because of the degree of dipping which is highly variable and up to 45%.

[fish]

Look guys forget about opencasting Pike! Let alone that DOC won't agree and there probably isn't the political will it is just not suitable. I've worked up there doing vegetation surveys & it is montane terrain with high rainfall. The depth of hard rock overburden would be a challenge & at least two of the exploration geologists have said it is unsuitable because of the degree of dipping which is highly variable and up to 45%.

I agree -not that I know much about it what you say makes sense .
It is a massive resource that needs to be mined.
I understand that DOC'S attitude towards ventilation holes was not constructive and I hope the enquirey address,s this.
It would not surprise me if one of the rich Australian mining companies with expertise in methane extraction ends up buying it at a bargain price -and probable get rights to mine a bigger percentage of the coal to make the extra cost worthwhile

[shasta]

I agree -not that I know much about it what you say makes sense .
It is a massive resource that needs to be mined.
I understand that DOC'S attitude towards ventilation holes was not constructive and I hope the enquirey address,s this.
It would not surprise me if one of the rich Australian mining companies with expertise in methane extraction ends up buying it at a bargain price -and probable get rights to mine a bigger percentage of the coal to make the extra cost worthwhile

Why dont NZO & the Indian shareholders explore the CSG merits of Pike, thereby reducing the odds of methane explosions (by removing the gas).

Take the gas out, & in time the mine may be able to be safely mined for undeground coal again (just an idea)

These are the players who seek to lose out on Pike not remaining a going concern & surely dont want there investment in the mine to be sold on the cheap to an opportunist buyer

[Beagle]

J.R.

The minimal environmental impact may have had some bearing on the mine's failure.
My logic to open cast if feasible and plausible and assuming underground mining operations cannot be resumed with better methane extraction and safety systems goes like this:-
1. Its not just the 29 lives that have been lost its a devastating economic impact on the coast that will be seriously affected for many years to come if the mine is permanently sealed off.
2. The close relatives of the dead miners, their extended family and friends will all have their lives affected seriously by lack of economic activtiy on the coast.
3. Open casting the mine will absolutly conferr a meaningful, enduring and much needed economic benifet to the coast so that the loss of these mens lives will not be for nothing.
4. The nation is stoney broke and desperatly needs more economic development, on the other hand we have third rate DOC land in absolutly vast quantities and as mentioned before its not like this land is on the Milford track. The only ones who would know the mine had been open cast would be the locals who go pig hunting in the area and by the way they would be all for the mine becoming operational again, by whatever means necessary.

If New Zealand as a nation doesn't wake up and realise we need to take a pragmatic approach to extracting maximum value from our resources by whatever means necessary, we will go down the path of Spain, massive and ballooning debt, credit ratings downgrades, soaring interest rates, severe cuts to government services and an extremly deep recession.

If open casting the mine is feasible and its the only way to re-establish operations, it makes common sense to me and if a few dozen hectares of some remote Doc land that no one goes too or sees gets bulldozed and later restored and a few snails get crushed by the Caterpillar machinery, so bloody what. Just a small matter of 10 or so billion dollars of coal and a few hundred jobs for years and years for coasters, far more important than a few snails, birds and a scar on the landscape, lets get real as a nation, preferrably BEFORE we go broke, not after !!

[Balance]

Looking grim for PRC's management and directors if this is indicative of what will be coming out at the inquiries :

http://www.3news.co.nz/Pike-River-inquiry-60-Mins-raises-big-issues---EPMU/tabid/423/articleID/191306/Default.aspx

"In the story, Pike River Coal CEO Peter Whittall admitted the disaster was preventable.
He also said there were a number of human and systemic errors which may have caused or contributed to the explosion which trapped 29 men underground."

[Logen Ninefingers]

Looking grim for PRC's management and directors if this is indicative of what will be coming out at the inquiries :

http://www.3news.co.nz/Pike-River-inquiry-60-Mins-raises-big-issues---EPMU/tabid/423/articleID/191306/Default.aspx

"In the story, Pike River Coal CEO Peter Whittall admitted the disaster was preventable.
He also said there were a number of human and systemic errors which may have caused or contributed to the explosion which trapped 29 men underground."

C'mon Balance - I know you're not surprised by any of this. Management of PRC was keystone cops - just a bunch of absolute clowns, bumblers, amateurs & pillagers trying to run a coal mine.

[fish]

Good initial investagation by 3 news as to what was actually going on underground .
The roadheader causing ignitions at the coal face.
Coal dust being as explosive as gunpowder-and lack of control of the dust
High methane levels in pockets of the mine-previous mine evacuation .
Problems with sensors.
Politicians-brownlee making jokes of attempts to establish new safe inspections and regulations .Politicians doing nothing useful.

This tragedy was and should have been preventable.
So many lives were being risked and have been lost .
Shareholders have been totally misled.
I started a big investment into PRC on the day they announced hydromining-and kept investing up until the explosion .
Money can be replaced -lives cant .
I feel even more sick as to have safety was compromised by so many-not just prc but politicians as well .It looks like a multisystem failure .
I have posted before that hydromining would reduce the risk of explosion -compare the roadheader grinding into the coal creating sparks and ignitions at an explosive coal face with a water jet-no sparks and reduced coal dust .
Maybe in the future this could be successfully hydromined-but not by prc .

[brucey09]

Snr Fish
I read that the day of explosion no mining. only for repairs and maintain?

[fish]

Snr Fish
I read that the day of explosion no mining. only for repairs and maintain?

3 news made it sound like a very high risk mine . Pockets of methane built up when ventilation was inadequate . I have been trying to find out if the ventllation broke down before the explosion-NZO dont know-
TV 3 news also brought up the fact that smokes and lighters were being taken down into the mine-against management regulations . Coal dust in a heap was shown going off like gunpowder .With hydromining you are not going to get the dust or working coal face igniting -also you have got a high power water jet to put out ignitions/fires and to cool down the mine .

[Beagle]

But the mine should have been perfectly safe we had the Chairman Mr Dow being paid absolutly top commercial rates, $400 per hour, for his wonderful consultancy expertise, as well as being paid $80,000 in directors fees.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/4463568/UBS-likely-source-for-chunk-of-70m-loan

PW was on over $500,000 from memory with 30 years mining experience but you wouldn't have thought all that expertise had been put to good use looking at him in that 3 news programme.

Perhaps the real expertise follows the money in the land of mining opportunity, if you were a world class miner why wouldn't you be in Australia whrre there's even more serious money to be made ?

Why is it only now that the other underground mines in N.Z. are being independently inspected - Failure by Government regulatory bodies to have proper safety audit systems anyone ?

[Snoopy]

This tragedy was and should have been preventable.
So many lives were being risked and have been lost .
Shareholders have been totally misled.


Just had a postcard from cousin Cujodog, from the Northern Territory outback town of Muttawatta. Says he has been investigating prospects (sic) in the Oz outback and while on the trail he invested all his NZ accumulated capital in Pike River. He sends his condolences to the miner's families, and says he has preserved his PRC capital by not selling at the current lows. He now wants to send a Christmas bone to his Mum so needs a bit of cash. He has a plan in place to retain 90% of his capital by instigating a 10% stop loss on his investment. However with the share now suspended he is having problems exiting, and thinks he may have to take it on the chin and bump up his stop loss trigger to 12%. I don't following PRC or these trading systems, but hopefully someone here can help him? TIA

SNOOPY

[winner69]

Fish - This tragedy was and should have been preventable.
So many lives were being risked and have been lost .
Shareholders have been totally misled

What were misled about fish ..... the PRC story was about getting billions of tons of coal out of the ground and selling it for in excess of US$200 a ton

Thats the story you bought into .... also knowing full well that there was a chance of the mine blowing up and things turning to custard

Nothing misleading in that methinks

[winner69]

Letter to the Editor - Dom Post 18/12

As the bodies in the mine are likely to be cremated beyond recognition, isn't it time to seal the mine as a tomb and have done with underground coalmining in NZ forever? Sending men underground to earn a living in the 21st century isn't acceptable.

However, its a bit like slavery; as long as profits can we made from the business its unlikely to be abolished without considerable opposition. I don't believe that its likely the inquiry into the disaster will accomplish much that will improve the safety of future mining.

Also, in view of our responsibilities to the Kyoto protocol, isn't it time we considered the morality of our continuing to mine and export coal which amounts to us exporting pollution, and so indirectly contributing to climate change?


Maybe using the word slavery is a bit over the top but but doesn't 'capitalism' for want of a better word mean that miners and all workers are only a resource (why is their a R in HR) ... and at the end of the day dispensable

That's the way the world works these days

[minimoke]

Failure by Government regulatory bodies to have proper safety audit systems anyone ?
Do we really want government poking its nose into every private company business. PRC ought to have know the risks - it is for them to manage them, not nanny government. If they fail to manage those risks then Directors and employees need to face the appropriate consequences.

[minimoke]

Maybe using the word slavery is a bit over the top but but doesn't 'capitalism' for want of a better word mean that miners and all workers are only a resource (why is their a R in HR) ... and at the end of the day dispensable

That's the way the world works these days
Actually the coal is a resource that potential employees can utilize. Through coal, they get jobs and then they get paid. If they are up for $18 k in back wages this suggests they get paid around $6,000 a month - not an insubstantial amount and an amount a willing employer and willing employee agreed to . If they weren't happy with the wages then that bone needs to be pointed at their union who negotiates on their behalf. "Slavery" is just a nonsense

[winner69]

Do we really want government poking its nose into every private company business. PRC ought to have know the risks - it is for them to manage them, not nanny government. If they fail to manage those risks then Directors and employees need to face the appropriate consequences.

Agree minmoke .... when things go wrong it is nor governments to interfere (unless we want the government to own everything!)

Otherwise they would be owning meatworks, timber mills and all sort of things on top of finance companies

Mining NZ resources for the good of the country is another story .... maybe that should be 'nationalised' so the benefits stay in the country .... instead of sending the profits off to the likes of Monkey Poms eh

[Balance]

Agree minmoke .... when things go wrong it is nor governments to interfere (unless we want the government to own everything!)

Otherwise they would be owning meatworks, timber mills and all sort of things on top of finance companies

Mining NZ resources for the good of the country is another story .... maybe that should be 'nationalised' so the benefits stay in the country .... instead of sending the profits off to the likes of Monkey Poms eh

Or in this case, the losses?

Risk = reward, surely, W69?

We have Solid Energy but NZ government takes too much out of Solid Energy by way of dividends?

[winner69]

We have Solid Energy but NZ government takes too much out of Solid Energy by way of dividends?

Aren't many of the advocates of the government getting involved in mining on DOC land really saying we need the resource mined so we can pay for the social welfare, retiirement benefits and healthcare ..... ie mine the stuff ... sell it ... with all the profits (not jsut the tax bit) going back to the government (people of NZ) ..... that's what those people want isn't it?

Pity that many don;t understand how it works now ,,,, priavtes put up the dosh and hope for zillions in return .... but occassionally you lose the lot

[winner69]

I see the chart at the bottom of this thread is updating each day .... still 80 cents odd

Wionder if it eill ever fall to zero?

[Balance]

Heard it all before.

Take a profit and wait for the next obstacle - that's PRC. Thats' why it hits $1.13 and dwon she goes.

Stamina - that's what this game is about and PRC ain't got none. Give PRC 3 months and it will be back to shareholders for more cash.

Posted 20 Sept 2010.

And sure enough, PRC was planning on tapping shareholders for another $70m in December 2010.

There are those who of course believe that management are just unlucky - they were speaking the truth when they tell shareholders that 'this is the last capital raising' - like they did in the last 2 times. As recorded and reported to all by you know who?

[J R Ewing]

J.R.

The minimal environmental impact may have had some bearing on the mine's failure.



True, it might have. But surely it was NZO's responsibility to negotiate a consent that would allow safe operation of the mine. They should not have proceeded with the development of the mine if they thought that the conditions imposed by DOC posed a safety threat.

On the value and merits of open cast mining in national parks, I guess we have to agree to differ on that - we are poles apart in our thinking.

[Balance]

True, it might have. But surely it was NZO's responsibility to negotiate a consent that would allow safe operation of the mine. They should not have proceeded with the development of the mine if they thought that the conditions imposed by DOC posed a safety threat.

On the value and merits of open cast mining in national parks, I guess we have to agree to differ on that - we are poles apart in our thinking.

Go to some places where there have been opencast mining and look at the transformation of the site into recreational areas with walking paths, water features, etc for all to enjoy.

Backward = NZ = why NZ is sliding into economic irrelevancy.

Economic irrelevancy = cannot borrow anymore from overseas = overseas interests buy NZ assets very cheap then = NZers become servants.

Roll on 2030 = NZ belongs to Australia or China?

[J R Ewing]

Go to some places where there have been opencast mining and look at the transformation of the site into recreational areas with walking paths, water features, etc for all to enjoy.

Backward = NZ = why NZ is sliding into economic irrelevancy.

Economic irrelevancy = cannot borrow anymore from overseas = overseas interests buy NZ assets very cheap then = NZers become servants.

Roll on 2030 = NZ belongs to Australia or China?

Balance, my question to you is similar to the one I asked of Monkey Poms re open cast in the Lake District. Give me some specific examples that are relevant to the adequate restoration of a NZ national park.

On this alleged economic irrelevancy, quite a bit of PRC was already owned offshore - and are you not the one advocating having Pike developed by Australian mining interests?

[Balance]

Balance, my question to you is similar to the one I asked of Monkey Poms re open cast in the Lake District. Give me some specific examples that are relevant to the adequate restoration of a NZ national park.

On this alleged economic irrelevancy, quite a bit of PRC was already owned offshore - and are you not the one advocating having Pike developed by Australian mining interests?

Solid Energy will be ideal but can't see it with the government wanting big dividends out of this SOE. Can you see Solid Energy pumping in $200m to reactivate the mine?

PRC has shown that NZ has bugger all expertise when it comes to mining - let's be realistic as the coal in the ground ain't going anywhere without real mining expertise.

It's a bit like all the offshore gas and oil wells - it's all foreign expertise, isn't it?

A JV is what will make sense - as in Maui.

NZ economy benefits from the hundreds of millions of dollars spent on mine exploration, development, wages, royalties etc.

Doing nothing = NZ becomes increasingly indebted = Ireland = Greece =Spain = severe cut-backs in future = it's coming = make no mistake.

[Balance]

Meanwhile, have a look at this :

http://www.coalnz.com/index.cfm/3,450,388/minerehab.pdf

And :

http://www.minesgolfclub.com/v2/main.php

Vision and the right channeling of funds - that's what NZ needs.

Look at the billions spent on holiday homes around NZ - all using borrowed monies and many now worth half of what they were 4 years ago = non-income generating = NZ needing to sell assets cheap in future.

PS. Heard the story of an offshore investor buying a piece of land in NZ for $5m after 1987 from a heavily indebted 'rich' NZ family and selling it many years later back to NZers for $160m? And the NZers have just gone bankrupt again and the offshore investor is offering to buy it back for $30m?

And what about the story of a NZ company spending $1.3 billion buying another company overseas, nearly went bankrupt and then, was bailed out by the NZ government using $870m offshore borrowed money! Another great example of NZ investment acumen at work.

Meanwhile, let's just keep those remote conservation land where nothing but a few miserable snails, possums and pig hunters frequent. That is definitely going to make NZ such a desirable place to live in the future! That's when the foreign interests will pick up the mines for bugger all because NZ will be begging them to extract the coal to pay for the groceries.

Sandal shoes instead of cars for the Greenies, anyone?

[fabs]

BALANCE:

The world has unfortunatley its share of detractors, NZ is no exempt, led by the likes of Locke and that GOOOOFY leader of the labor party. Seems we have a few on this forum.
Anything positive and constructive suggested just bleat the opposite, simple as that.
Long live freedom of speech.

[geezy]

and when i thought John Key had enough clout to provide some kinda "revolution"....looks like i will still need to wait

[minimoke]

and when i thought John Key had enough clout to provide some kinda "revolution"....looks like i will still need to wait
You are a tad misguided there. It was very clear that the electorate voted in Labor Lite last election. We get what we vote for!

[mouse]

3 news made it sound like a very high risk mine . Pockets of methane built up when ventilation was inadequate . I have been trying to find out if the ventllation broke down before the explosion-NZO dont know-
TV 3 news also brought up the fact that smokes and lighters were being taken down into the mine-against management regulations . Coal dust in a heap was shown going off like gunpowder .With hydromining you are not going to get the dust or working coal face igniting -also you have got a high power water jet to put out ignitions/fires and to cool down the mine .
I stood at the 'Bus Stop', where miners wait for transport to the mine. Just by the equipment and maintenance sheds. At the AGM on Monday 15th. Explosion of the following Friday. Down at my feet were lots of cigarette butts. On the floor. Amazing. I should have taken this up since on a previous visit to the mine I was told that a man was sacked for smoking in the same area.

[mouse]

The simple solution is for Govt to help with a NZ$250 million 'rights' issue. At say 40 cents a share. We buy what we want and can afford. And thus pay for the recovery operation and mine inspections. Govt holds shares not sold. Govt then gives Pike the right to mine all mineable coal, 58 million tonnes of the stuff.
We pay 'up front'. Govt pays 'as required' for their shares. So hopefully Govt does not pay any cash out in the initial stages.
We re-open the mine and start again. Thus preventing it being sold offshore. I am sure buyers are already talking to the Receivers. The assetts include the developed site AND the right to mine the 18 million tonnes of coal. Must be worth millions. Or billions. I am a little confident that my shares will eventually be worth 50 cents even if Govt does not step in. Should we get help from Govt then we are looking at $1 a share at least. We need to keep Pike in NZ hands, not give it away overseas.

[Beagle]

Meanwhile, have a look at this :

http://www.coalnz.com/index.cfm/3,450,388/minerehab.pdf

And :

http://www.minesgolfclub.com/v2/main.php

Vision and the right channeling of funds - that's what NZ needs.

Look at the billions spent on holiday homes around NZ - all using borrowed monies and many now worth half of what they were 4 years ago = non-income generating = NZ needing to sell assets cheap in future.

PS. Heard the story of an offshore investor buying a piece of land in NZ for $5m after 1987 from a heavily indebted 'rich' NZ family and selling it many years later back to NZers for $160m? And the NZers have just gone bankrupt again and the offshore investor is offering to buy it back for $30m?

And what about the story of a NZ company spending $1.3 billion buying another company overseas, nearly went bankrupt and then, was bailed out by the NZ government using $870m offshore borrowed money! Another great example of NZ investment acumen at work.

Meanwhile, let's just keep those remote conservation land where nothing but a few miserable snails, possums and pig hunters frequent. That is definitely going to make NZ such a desirable place to live in the future! That's when the foreign interests will pick up the mines for bugger all because NZ will be begging them to extract the coal to pay for the groceries.

Sandal shoes instead of cars for the Greenies, anyone?

Classic post, well said.

J.R. NZO are only 30% shareholders, it was always up to the directors of PRC to ensure they had the necessary techincal expertise to ensure the mine was safe, not NZO directors, although I'm sure Mr Radford would find the distinction irrelevant.

You're quite correct about us being poles apart on the issue of open casting the mine if necessary. I'm a N.Z. acountant with 30 years experience, I'm a realist and realise we simply can't afford simplistic ideals of N.Z. being 100% clean and green,, we're going broke my friend make no mistake so when you see rioting in the streets in the years ahead, just like presently exist in many parts of Europe due to the really savage cutbacks in Government benifets and services, you'll forgive me if I don't wear my 100% clean and green N.Z. teeshirt with pride. By the way people out there are still really hurting, anyone who thinks we're out of this GFC mess and into recovery mode is definitly living in an alternative reality to me so any pragmatic thinking that allows us as a nation to climb out of the financial hole we're digging for ourselves into, is worthy at the very least of serious consideration.

Minimoke - I certainly don't advocate Government interference in all industries but with high risk industires there's a place for government audit's of their safety systems in my opinion, e.g. all aviation business are subject to regular independent safety and maintenace audits, I'm sure that gives you peace of mind every time you fly, wouldn't you agree ? So as far as risky operations go, I would have thought it doesn't get much riskier than underground coal mining hence my thinking there needs to be independent audits of operational and safety systems otherwise isn't their always the possibility that capitalism compromises safety ? PRC a case in point ?

[RRR]

I really don't understand why NZ Govt should prop up this mine back to life and I wouldn't be happy if they do. PIKE is "dead" for the current investors(including me). PIKE as a company and the investors took the risk and lost all invested money. Move on and let the new investor give it a go. Who is paying tax? I am one of them. What about others????

[minimoke]

Minimoke - I certainly don't advocate Government interference in all industries but with high risk industires there's a place for government audit's of their safety systems in my opinion,
I recall we share similar ideas - but you are seem to be advocating for the regulation of the Agricultural sector - there are more deaths there (including children) than most other industries. Or what about the fishing industry. 20 people died in a boat mining white gold the other day down south. We don't hear much about them do we - but lets face it slitty eyed people don't warrant our national attention. Where is the Dom Post who seem so keen banging on about slavery - those fishermen get $1350 for three months work - and thats a good wage. What do miners get?

With talk of government subsidy, nationalization, regulation and mandated wages the odour of hypocrisy seems to be starting to ooze from this thread.

[Phaedrus]

Just had a postcard from my Northern Territory cousin. Cujodog invested all his NZ capital in Pike River. He had a plan in place to retain 90% of his capital by instigating a 10% stop loss on his investment. However with the share now suspended he is having problems exiting. I don't follow PRC or these trading systems, but hopefully someone here can help him.Snoopy, your transtasman cousin is pulling your leg. You see, Cujodog's 10% Trailing Stop would not only have retained his capital - it would also have locked in most all of his PRC profits. (See attached chart) I suspect he wants to hit you up for a loan - and I think the money is rather more likely to be for his Christmas booze than his old Mum!

It is nice that you want to help, but the real irony of this situation is that he could help you. His fixed percentage Trailing Stop is a device to retain profits and/or limit losses and is eminently suitable for Australians. It is crude and simple - but effective. You too would benefit from the use of such an indicator. NZers are of course more cultured and better educated so we are well aware that there are other, better ways to accomplish the same aims. A quick glance at the chart will show you that pretty much any appropriate indicator had triggered a Sell signal well before Cujo's 10% stop was hit. Any of these indicators would have kept you in PRC when it was in an uptrend and got you out when the uptrend ended - well before the subsequent tragedy and delisting.


I don't follow these trading systems........ Your relentless buying of downtrending stocks makes that painfully obvious, Snoopy. This is an old battleground for us isn't it! I believe that over the years neither of us have budged an inch in our standpoints. Many, many years ago I was kindly, gently, helpfully drawing your attention to this counterproductive practice, for example :-
"Look at poor Snoopy buying TEL every time it dropped below $6.30 - on the basis that it was "cheap" at any price below his estimate of its "fair value". Unfortunately the market did not agree and the downtrend continued...."
Later, when you were buying TEL at $4.65.......
"Snoopy, I have always claimed that your big mistake is that you persist in buying stocks when they are in a downtrend. This is not because you are ignorant of this unfortunate fact - you actually seem to be perversely proud of such timing! "Notice that each of my four tranches of shares has been purchased in a downtrend" (Bought at an average of about $6.) Two years later, these positions are STILL underwater in spite of the handsome dividends! Over the same 2 year period, you could have made around 40% in an Index fund and around 100% on perfectly ordinary stocks like IFT, FBU etc. With dividends on top! You would have done better leaving the money in your pocket! Please don't start talking about the unfortunate influence of the unbundling announcement. TEL was in a clear downtrend well before the news broke - all that did was accelerate the pre-existing downtrend. I am of course well aware that you continued to buy TEL all the way down during the 18 month downtrend and that not all of your positions are in the red. That does not alter the fact that you would have done much better being totally out of TEL all that time, delaying your entry until the downtrend had ended and there was some indication that an uptrend had begun. TEL is again in a downtrend and again you would be better off out, sitting on a pile of money ready to buy in again when the current downtrend ends. I'll say this for you Snoopy. You are consistent. Ever true to form, now that TEL is again in a downtrend - you are buying! The time to buy TEL was around Sep/Oct last year when it had stopped falling and had started to rise, not before then when it was still falling and not now when it is falling again. You say "It would quite suit me if the TEL share price were to fall further as I do intend to buy more" Let's say you wanted to increase your TEL holdings by 10% if the price fell further. Each $1 you save on this new purchase will have cost you $10 in losses made on the rest of your holding! You pretend that an ongoing downtrend is something you would welcome :- "It would quite suit me if the TEL share price were to fall further......But we can't always get what we want!".
Snoopy, you sound like a turkey hoping for Christmas!"

Now, years later, the turkey has come home to roost........
"In the case of Telecom I have lost capital, (after all those years of investment!) but I am far from worried about it. (you should be!) This share investing is all about perspective and timeframes. (No it's not. It is all about profit) But if you have a longer than business cycle investment perspective, then buying a share while it is on the way up or down makes not one jot of difference, as in my case." Snoopy right there is the root cause of your losses with TEL and other stocks. You have provided us with example after example of the folly of buying downtrending stocks. Anything that would stop or limit your buying/holding of downtrending stocks would improve your returns and even a device as crude as your cousin's Trailling Stop would help you in this regard.

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt102/PhaedrusPB/PRC1218.gif

[J R Ewing]

Classic post, well said.

J.R. NZO are only 30% shareholders, it was always up to the directors of PRC to ensure they had the necessary techincal expertise to ensure the mine was safe, not NZO directors, although I'm sure Mr Radford would find the distinction irrelevant.

You're quite correct about us being poles apart on the issue of open casting the mine if necessary. I'm a N.Z. acountant with 30 years experience, I'm a realist and realise we simply can't afford simplistic ideals of N.Z. being 100% clean and green,, we're going broke my friend make no mistake so when you see rioting in the streets in the years ahead, just like presently exist in many parts of Europe due to the really savage cutbacks in Government benifets and services, you'll forgive me if I don't wear my 100% clean and green N.Z. teeshirt with pride. By the way people out there are still really hurting, anyone who thinks we're out of this GFC mess and into recovery mode is definitly living in an alternative reality to me so any pragmatic thinking that allows us as a nation to climb out of the financial hole we're digging for ourselves into, is worthy at the very least of serious consideration.

Roger, I think NZO had 100% ownership of Pike when the mining consent was negotiated.

Rioting in the streets, that sounds bad! We had better get on with digging up those national parks then. Never mind the foreign exchange earned by tourism, lets bulldoze the parks - mining will save the day. And when we have finished we will have such a lot of great golf courses the PGA tour will want to move here!

[fungus pudding]

Roger, I think NZO had 100% ownership of Pike when the mining consent was negotiated.

Rioting in the streets, that sounds bad! We had better get on with digging up those national parks then. Never mind the foreign exchange earned by tourism, lets bulldoze the parks - mining will save the day. And when we have finished we will have such a lot of great golf courses the PGA tour will want to move here!

The suggestion that mining would affect tourism is plain silly. Nobody is suggesting digging up the entire country all at once.

[J R Ewing]

The suggestion that mining would affect tourism is plain silly. Nobody is suggesting digging up the entire country all at once.

Actually, I think it is very naive to suggest that open cast mining in national parks would NOT affect tourism. It would certainly make a complete mockery of the "100% pure NZ" slogan.

[Balance]

Actually, I think it is very naive to suggest that open cast mining in national parks would NOT affect tourism. It would certainly make a complete mockery of the "100% pure NZ" slogan.

"100% pure NZ"? You have to be kidding!

That's just like Australia "Where the bloody hell are you!?'

And what do you think the dairy industry is doing to the environment? Challenge you to drink from our clean and pure waterways.

And the visual pollution of rampant scenery-blighting developments springing up all over holiday spots like Queenstown (being there recently?), Nelson and the beaches?

[minimoke]

Actually, I think it is very naive to suggest that open cast mining in national parks would NOT affect tourism. It would certainly make a complete mockery of the "100% pure NZ" slogan.
I'm with Balance on this one. Lets look at dairying: polluting our waterways with cow poo and fertilizers so waterways are unable to support aquatic life and people cannot swim safely. Add to that the visual pollution of the irrigators. Head down the Mckenzie country and see what sort of blight on the landscape a 1.5km long irrigator makes.

What about our energy generation - while "wind" may be eco friendlily it is one of the biggest new world visual polluters around.

How about our seas - so much untreated raw sewerage is flowing into them that people cannot safely swim and its suspected that this is the cause of algal blooms meaning we can't eat the shell fish.

Auckland is so desperate for drinking water it takes it out of the Waikato River. I know that river has improved over the years but when I tried fishing it years back you couldn't even catch an eel it was so polluted.

What about our timber industry - their are so many toxic land sites around that you've be mad to be thinking about putting any kind of human habitation there.

In Christchurch we have people living in fear due to chimneys falling through their asbestos's roofs during the earthquake.


Hacking a hole in a bit of third rate poxy back country land is the least of our polluters.

[Balance]

I'm with Balance on this one. Lets look at dairying: polluting our waterways with cow poo and fertilizers so waterways are unable to support aquatic life and people cannot swim safely. Add to that the visual pollution of the irrigators. Head down the Mckenzie country and see what sort of blight on the landscape a 1.5km long irrigator makes.

What about our energy generation - while "wind" may be eco friendlily it is one of the biggest new world visual polluters around.

How about our seas - so much untreated raw sewerage is flowing into them that people cannot safely swim and its suspected that this is the cause of algal blooms meaning we can't eat the shell fish.

Auckland is so desperate for drinking water it takes it out of the Waikato River. I know that river has improved over the years but when I tried fishing it years back you couldn't even catch an eel it was so polluted.

What about our timber industry - their are so many toxic land sites around that you've be mad to be thinking about putting any kind of human habitation there.

In Christchurch we have people living in fear due to chimneys falling through their asbestos's roofs during the earthquake.


Hacking a hole in a bit of third rate poxy back country land is the least of our polluters.

If only the tourist when they are trekking through our 'natural' pure, clean and green forests know what some of NZ's local councils do with the solid waste from the sewage plants.

That will be more of a turn-off than a few open cast mines. Look at the giant Newmont gold mine in Waihi - does not stop the tourist from flocking to the Coromandel. Different though if the tourists know how polluted with sewage are some of those beaches they swim in.

[fungus pudding]

Actually, I think it is very naive to suggest that open cast mining in national parks would NOT affect tourism. It would certainly make a complete mockery of the "100% pure NZ" slogan.

I have never bothered to find out if there is any mining going on in any country I've been to visit. I'm sure the vast majority of people don't. Mining operations can in themseles be a tourist attraction. What else is at Salt lake city to attract the large no of tourists they get? Answer - nothing! There's plenty of National parkland for tourists - if that's their thing, but I'll bet my bottom dollar even most NZers haven't seen a mere fraction of nat. park land, and never will.

[Beagle]

I recall we share similar ideas - but you are seem to be advocating for the regulation of the Agricultural sector - there are more deaths there (including children) than most other industries. Or what about the fishing industry. 20 people died in a boat mining white gold the other day down south. We don't hear much about them do we - but lets face it slitty eyed people don't warrant our national attention. Where is the Dom Post who seem so keen banging on about slavery - those fishermen get $1350 for three months work - and thats a good wage. What do miners get?

With talk of government subsidy, nationalization, regulation and mandated wages the odour of hypocrisy seems to be starting to ooze from this thread.

Not quite sure how much of that is directed at me or if you got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning but I can only see one point in there that I brought up and one other that's worth a quick comment.

The 3 News investigation made mention of a system of Govt inspections of mines safety and operating systems and I still think that's a good idea as per man involved I doubt there is a higher risk industry in N.Z.

There is undoubably more deaths in the agriculture industry in New Zealand but its quite clear that's because of the massive scale of operations throughout N.Z. not because its a higher risk industry. I am certainly not advocating Govt intervention and safety systems audits in the agricultural industry, don't we allready have enough with OSH compliance matters, I am sure you would agree, but the mining industry is a unique and high risk sector and has a long history of being so in N.Z in my opinion.

I fail to see the relevance of wasn't it an overseas boat that capsized in deep water far south of New Zealand employing foriegn based labour, since when were we responsible for overseas employment conditions on foriegn vessel's and what relevance has that to the situation at PRC ?

I'm definitly with you and Balance on making the mine open cast if there's no other practicle and reliable way to extract the resource safely.

J.R. Allright I conceed it was NZO who were responsible for operations when the consent was granted. You do realise as a nation we are borrowing close to $50m a day just to balance the books dont you ? There was a recent article in the Chrischurch paper posted on here recently with a link saying the extraction industry on the coast outstripped,. (pardon the pun) the tourism industry by five to one in terms of income. I'm not sure if you've been there but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say in my opinion Greymouth hasn't actually got a heck of a lot going for it from a Tourism perspective. What it does have is natural resources in abundence. The numbers don't lie and unless each region can contribute in its own way to the problem facing the nation we're in it good and proper. We simply can't afford the luxury anymore of being conservation idealists, enough said.

Perhaps we should get Lara Bingle over here and start a new tourism campaign ?, seems to have worked for them...

[fungus pudding]

You do realise as a nation we are borrowing close to $50m a day just to balance the books dont you ? There was a recent article in the Chrischurch paper posted on here recently with a link saying the extraction industry on the coast outstripped,. (pardon the pun) the tourism industry by five to one in terms of income. I'm not sure if you've been there but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say in my opinion Greymouth hasn't actually got a heck of a lot going for it from a Tourism perspective. What it does have is natural resources in abundence. The numbers don't lie and unless each region can contribute in its own way to the problem facing the nation we're in it good and proper. We simply can't afford the luxury anymore of being conservation idealists, enough said.


I'll second that lot!

[whirly]

I'm not sure if you've been there but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say in my opinion Greymouth hasn't actually got a heck of a lot going for it from a Tourism perspective.

Wow, thats quite a limb and a very thin one at that to be climbing out on. Have you been to Greymouth Roger? And what did you do while you were there? If you have and you still think there's nothing to do. Hit me up next time you come. Tell me your interests and I'll be your tour guide.



Greymouth hasn't actually got an abundance of resources it is simply the commercial centre for the entire west coast which does.

[digger]

I probably lives and was brought up amoust more miners than all you poster put together so am having some difficulty seeing where some of you are coming from.The idea that mining and tourism do not mix is is not in any way supported from my fautual experience. In fact it seems to be a tourist drawcard . About 3 miles from my home i was brought up in until the age of 18 was the largest open Asbestoes mine in the world. The open cast mine and the the tailings were a paying tourist proposition.Now that Asbestoes is a dirty word the mine is no longer operating but the tourist are still coming and paying for tours through the pit.
The same can be said for a place in Northern Ontario called Sudbury where nickel is mined opencast.Tourist are fenced out mostly but can view from a platform.
I could go on and on as my mining experience is part of my childhood and the tourist coming from the US was common knowledge.
Anyone saying that open cast mining and tourism do not mix,could you tell me where it is in fact the actually case,not counting some greenie who just said so so it is so. Please tell me and i can documment where tourism and open cast mining support each other.