PRC Pike River Coal

[whirly]

Agreed Digger. Too many to list but here's a link to West Coast Heritage sites.

http://www.westcoastnz.com/visit/History/

W

[Contrarian]

Gidday
I went on a well patronised bus tour of a mine at Weipa QLD.
The lady drivers of the dump trucks were rated as better drivers.

[Beagle]

Wow, thats quite a limb and a very thin one at that to be climbing out on. Have you been to Greymouth Roger? And what did you do while you were there? If you have and you still think there's nothing to do. Hit me up next time you come. Tell me your interests and I'll be your tour guide.



Greymouth hasn't actually got an abundance of resources it is simply the commercial centre for the entire west coast which does.

I certainly didn't mean to offend any residents of Greymouth and yeah, look I must admitt rather sheepishly its been a very long time and I was just passing through so maybe I'll take you up on that tour guide offer next time.

Facts are facts though mate and don't you think the five to one extraction to tourism dollars say it all ?
If the only safe way forward is for the mine to be open cast are you in favour of that ?

My main interest is boating so I have to admitt with the Hauraki gulf right on our doorstep we're a bit spoilt up here in Auckland.

[digger]

Agreed Digger. Too many to list but here's a link to West Coast Heritage sites.

http://www.westcoastnz.com/visit/History/

W

Good list of Heritage sites but how do they in any way get taken out by open cast mining at PIKE ? Surely it is more likely to support each other as i said before. Unless NZ starts earning a living the country will be too poor to visit these Heritage anyways so lets earn some income and i am all for preserving these sites you have listed none of which are in any danger from PIKE opencast. No problem they will support each other.

[friedegg]

i went on an interesting tour of a salt mine in austria,you went up this mountain in a very steep cable car,then once up the mountain you got into carriages on a rail track and proceeded into the mountain where the salt was extracted from,it was very informative and well set up but i cant remember the towns name.
and most salt produced in the world goes on roads,second was cosmetics and cant remember where on the list table salt was

[Kees]

Gidday
I went on a well patronised bus tour of a mine at Weipa QLD.
The lady drivers of the dump trucks were rated as better drivers.

The vibration of those big motors keep them on their toes.

[mouse]

I stay at The Blackball Hilton for the AGMs. A short walk away is the Blackball Mine. Conservation Estate. Included in Conservation is the mine entrance, a couple of chimneys plus the bath house. All very important. It must not be demolished as it is part of our NZ industrial history. Conservation is vital. Dont touch the chimneys.
Actually, if the whole lot was levelled, there would be nothing to look at. The quandry of Conservation!

[friedegg]

i also went with the nelson 4x4 club on a weekend to the big river mine,it was about 25km of bush track into the forest from reefton,all the remnants of the small town/mine were still there including the cyonide tanks

[fungus pudding]

I probably lives and was brought up amoust more miners than all you poster put together so am having some difficulty seeing where some of you are coming from.The idea that mining and tourism do not mix is is not in any way supported from my fautual experience. In fact it seems to be a tourist drawcard . About 3 miles from my home i was brought up in until the age of 18 was the largest open Asbestoes mine in the world. The open cast mine and the the tailings were a paying tourist proposition.Now that Asbestoes is a dirty word the mine is no longer operating but the tourist are still coming and paying for tours through the pit.
The same can be said for a place in Northern Ontario called Sudbury where nickel is mined opencast.Tourist are fenced out mostly but can view from a platform.
I could go on and on as my mining experience is part of my childhood and the tourist coming from the US was common knowledge.
Anyone saying that open cast mining and tourism do not mix,could you tell me where it is in fact the actually case,not counting some greenie who just said so so it is so. Please tell me and i can documment where tourism and open cast mining support each other.

I couldn't agree more. Mining needs to be controlled, but certainly not avoided. Jobs and money are only two of the benefits. We've got squillions of hectares of national parks, but few mining attractions - and that's what they can be. Take a chartered flight overthe country, places like Fiordland, and you'd be hard pressed to think a mine or two could be a negative.

[zigzag]

Actually, I think it is very naive to suggest that open cast mining in national parks would NOT affect tourism. It would certainly make a complete mockery of the "100% pure NZ" slogan.

What's wrong with 99% pure NZ? As in nobodys perfect.

[iceman]

I have never bothered to find out if there is any mining going on in any country I've been to visit. I'm sure the vast majority of people don't. Mining operations can in themseles be a tourist attraction. What else is at Salt lake city to attract the large no of tourists they get? Answer - nothing! There's plenty of National parkland for tourists - if that's their thing, but I'll bet my bottom dollar even most NZers haven't seen a mere fraction of nat. park land, and never will.

FP, absolutely spot on. Most travellers will not even know, let alone care, there is mining taking place in NZ. In the past, I've had some interest in commercial whaling. A few years ago Norway and Iceland decided to ignore the stupid International Whaling Commission that had been hijacked and rendered useless, mainly by Australia & NZ and thei holier than thou attitude, and sensibly started small scale commercial whaling again. To keep it in perspective, they harvest just under 1% of the estimated biomass in their economic zones. At the time, the Whale Watching industry in both countires cried wolf and said their industries and businesses would die. The facts are that they have grown substantially each and every years since whaling started again. So I strongly believe tourism and mining can go hand in hand and BOTH be very successful. Sorry this post may be completely out of line under this thread but somewhat related and relevant to the most recent comments.

[mouse]

What's wrong with 99% pure NZ? As in nobodys perfect.
Brilliant!

[whirly]

Good list of Heritage sites but how do they in any way get taken out by open cast mining at PIKE ? Surely it is more likely to support each other as i said before. Unless NZ starts earning a living the country will be too poor to visit these Heritage anyways so lets earn some income and i am all for preserving these sites you have listed none of which are in any danger from PIKE opencast. No problem they will support each other.

I'm agreeing with you Digger. I was simply demonstrating to others that industry and tourism go hand in hand on the West Coast and maybe contrary to a few beliefs we have many visitors who actively seek out mine tours and the like.

[whirly]

My responses in bold Roger


I certainly didn't mean to offend any residents of Greymouth Yeah we're sensitive new age types over hereand yeah, look I must admitt rather sheepishly its been a very long time and I was just passing through so maybe I'll take you up on that tour guide offer next time. You're welcome

Facts are facts though mate and don't you think the five to one extraction to tourism dollars say it all ? Yep many of the tourists spend a minimal amount while here and save there money for the glitz and glamour of the city. We need to encourage higher spend type tourists. So bring plenty of money when you come Roger.
If the only safe way forward is for the mine to be open cast are you in favour of that ? If it's feasible, proven to be economic, harm to the environment is minimized and a fair chunk of the profits remain here on the coast. Yep I am.

My main interest is boating so I have to admitt with the Hauraki gulf right on our doorstep we're a bit spoilt up here in Auckland. Well wait for winter and bring a group of mates and go on a bluefin tuna fishing charter. Or hire the houseboat on Lake Moana for a weekend for you and the family. You'll have a ball and at the same time improve our extraction to tourism ratio.

[Monkey Poms]

I probably lives and was brought up amoust more miners than all you poster put together so am having some difficulty seeing where some of you are coming from.The idea that mining and tourism do not mix is is not in any way supported from my fautual experience. In fact it seems to be a tourist drawcard . About 3 miles from my home i was brought up in until the age of 18 was the largest open Asbestoes mine in the world. The open cast mine and the the tailings were a paying tourist proposition.Now that Asbestoes is a dirty word the mine is no longer operating but the tourist are still coming and paying for tours through the pit.
The same can be said for a place in Northern Ontario called Sudbury where nickel is mined opencast.Tourist are fenced out mostly but can view from a platform.
I could go on and on as my mining experience is part of my childhood and the tourist coming from the US was common knowledge.
Anyone saying that open cast mining and tourism do not mix,could you tell me where it is in fact the actually case,not counting some greenie who just said so so it is so. Please tell me and i can documment where tourism and open cast mining support each other.


Well said, Digger. Absolutely true. Here's a story - a couple of years ago, we took about eight Asians up to the Lake District.
Showed them all the wonders of our National Park. They eventually tired of the spectacular landscapes and the highlight of
their day became a visit to the Honister Slate Mine (after shopping in Keswick)!

The downturn in the U.K. is gathering pace, tens of thousands of people are being laid off work by the government, and
hundreds of thousands more are to follow. I think N.Z. will see a decline in European tourists. This may be made up by
more tourists from Asia. Believe me, they want more out of a visit to N.Z. than areas of endless trees, beautiful though
it is. After a couple of hundred ks of it, they would be more than bored.

A case in point is your Gold mining tourist attractions. They're spot on, giving the visitors a chance to learn some history
and enjoy themselves panning for a speck of gold ( as I and my family and friends often try on our way down to Queenstown the patter from some of the old goldminers can be hilarious ).

I'm off now to take a couple of snaps, for JR Ewing, of land restoration after the cessation of opencast mining. I'm wasting my time, I know, but it's a nice day.

Monkey Poms

[minimoke]

I fail to see the relevance of wasn't it an overseas boat that capsized in deep water far south of New Zealand employing foriegn based labour, since when were we responsible for overseas employment conditions on foriegn vessel's and what relevance has that to the situation at PRC ?

The relevance being when you have a lot of people in a confined space and things go wrong they go very wrong. That vessel wasn't under NZ conditions - but it was under NZ Search and rescue control - meaning NZ had to do what it could to rescue them. And just so we are a bit closer to home its not so long ago that the Oyan 70 went down.

If you want regulation it should be equitable across all dangerous industries and fishing is right up there. Mining on the other hand is pretty safe - its just that when things go wrong they go tragically wrong.

[Robomo]

Sovereign Hill in Ballarat and the Super Pit in Kalgoorlie are two very popular tourist attractions in Oz.
The former is gold mining how it used to be, plus a chance to pan a few specks, the Super Pit is an awesome display of the biggest (I believe) open pit in the world. There is also a restored gold mine where people pay lots of money to travel underground and experience claustrophobia for themselves. In the vastness of the WA desert even the Superpit is but a pimple.
If PRC can be opencut, go for it. I spoke with Peter Whittall at the AGM last month and he was telling me then that the only human activity pre-PRC were a few hunters. The rest of the time the stoats, snails, deer and possums had it all to themselves. Not a tourist in sight.

[minimoke]

Well said, Digger. Absolutely true.

Totally agree. Biggest mine I've been to as a tourist was Chuquicamata, smallest is probably Martha when it was still a wee overgrown hole in the ground. The coast (and teh South Island) has got lots of mining spots that draw in the tourists and there is loads of potential there - including open cast. We could probably already list off the mining tourist hot spots on the coast but I'm not going to do it since I quite like heading their without the masses.

[J R Ewing]

So opencast coal mines would enhance the national parks and bring in more tourists now.

[robo]

So opencast coal mines would enhance the national parks and bring in more tourists now.


Ha ha Lord Of the Mines starring big Gerry, dont get me wrong Im not anti mining but to suggest they are a possible tourism venture is very funny :eek2:

[blockhead]

Notice the subtle change in tone of big Gerrys pronouncements, he is now "dissapointed in the time it is taking the GAG to neutralise the mine atmosphere after being told earlier by the Company it would only a few days" , the blame game has commenced !

[fungus pudding]

So opencast coal mines would enhance the national parks and bring in more tourists now.


Not quite. It won't bring tourists in, but neither will it stop them coming, and once here there is no doubt they will visit mining sites; so in effect they would become tourist attractions. I have visited several mining operations in various countries. They are usually well presented to visitors with explanatory exhibitions etc, as are many industrial projects. (and I have tramped every major track in NZ, many several times, and really appreciate the experience of our National parks.)
Such things as mines certainly make any country more interesting. Those who want to view nothing but untouched growth, there's always Borneo. Pop over and see how interesting that is after half a day! Good luck.

[Balance]

Notice the subtle change in tone of big Gerrys pronouncements, he is now "dissapointed in the time it is taking the GAG to neutralise the mine atmosphere after being told earlier by the Company it would only a few days" , the blame game has commenced !

Indeed! Revelation now that there's not enough mining inspectors.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10695443

This is NZ as per usual, isn't it? Shut the door after the horse has bolted - just like with the finance company debacle.

I would be very worried if I was a PRC director or manager or consultant or equipment supplier or contractor. Blood on coal = blood now being sought as the blame game begins in earnest.

[mouse]

Ha ha Lord Of the Mines starring big Gerry, dont get me wrong Im not anti mining but to suggest they are a possible tourism venture is very funny :eek2:
The Oamaru Stone Quarries are a tourist attraction. I went round it before you had to pay $10.00. My wife thought it the most fascinating part of our stay in Oamaru. It even beat the Blue Penguins. You pay now, to see the quarry and blue penguins. Quarries and mines are fascinating. Which is why the Blackball Mine is a 'heritage' or whatever site.

[Hoop]

If I was a tourist on a group tour and was presented with a choice as to what to do today for a half a day scenic tour, whether to look at a group of green trees or a hole in the ground ..I would probably pick the hole in the ground.

In saying that...both options suck and I would make sure I would never go on that group tour again

[Hoop]

Don't get me wrong here...There are some holes in the ground I would love to see...especially this one.
...but I some how doubt it could ever happen in NZ.
PS can't see a tree here either Yankiwi..oh yes I can I think

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq306/Hoop_1/world-largest-mine-thumb.jpg

[J R Ewing]

Not quite. It won't bring tourists in, but neither will it stop them coming, and once here there is no doubt they will visit mining sites; so in effect they would become tourist attractions. I have visited several mining operations in various countries. They are usually well presented to visitors with explanatory exhibitions etc, as are many industrial projects. (and I have tramped every major track in NZ, many several times, and really appreciate the experience of our National parks.)
Such things as mines certainly make any country more interesting. Those who want to view nothing but untouched growth, there's always Borneo. Pop over and see how interesting that is after half a day! Good luck.

I agree that some mines can be a tourist attraction. However, I don't think there are many (if any) examples of opencast coal mines that fit this category.
I also don't think a national park is an appropriate place for this kind of mining.

[Beagle]

Whirly,

You sound like a good dude and those entetainment idea's sound great too so if I get the opportunity to head your way I'll send you a PM and hook up and have a few beers. Being born in Tuatapere I love everything about the South Island and yeah for some strange reason my wife always makes sure I remember to bring plenty of money when we go on holiday.
I Hope the nitrogen and Gag machine do the business.

Minimoke - Fair comment the fishing industry is also high risk, a mate works on a fishing boat out of Nelson and I hear all the stories but that industry is highly regulated allready, e.g. every four years you should see how intensive the survey requirements are on those boats and then there's the quota management system e.t.c.
I don't really like regulation per se but take for example a small helicopter operation like the one I act for, did you know the insurance premiums per $100,000 of machinery value for helicopter insurance is several times the price for fixed wing aircraft, what does that tell you about the risks of flying in helicopters and arn't you pleased that civial aviation has an intensive process of reviewing their safety and maintenace requirements ?

Whirly, maybe you could give us an insight, do miners want independent audits of mines safety systems ?

Without some sort of checks and balances in very high risk industries isn't there always a possibility that the hungry animal of capitalism compromises workers safety, what do others think, indpendent audits of mines safety and operational systems or just leave them to police their own systems ?

[Balance]

I agree that some mines can be a tourist attraction. However, I don't think there are many (if any) examples of opencast coal mines that fit this category.
I also don't think a national park is an appropriate place for this kind of mining.

It's all about vision.

Have a look at this - a huge abandoned opencast tin mine into something NZ can only ever dream about.

http://www.google.co.nz/images?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=sunway&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1678&bih=819

I am not even going to try the bs bit of how with a bit of kiwi ingenuity, NZ will be able to do something even more creative etc. NZ only knows how to build lots of houses - all using borrowed monies.

Have a look at Queenstown now and see how they have completely destroyed what was such a lovely scenic city - the urban sprawl spreading ever higher up the slopes and ugly, ugly houses and apartments being built. The facilities on top of the hill is a disgrace - substandard facilities, lousy service, food and exorbitant prices.

And yes, NZ actually believes the tourists will just keep coming and putting up with that rubbish. Australia has already found they don't.

[J R Ewing]

It's all about vision.

Have a look at this - a huge abandoned opencast tin mine into something NZ can only ever dream about.

http://www.google.co.nz/images?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=sunway&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1678&bih=819

I am not even going to try the bs bit of how with a bit of kiwi ingenuity, NZ will be able to do something even more creative etc.

Have a look at Queenstown now and see how they have completely destroyed what was such a lovely scenic city - the urban sprawl spreading ever higher up the slopes and ugly, ugly houses and apartments being built. The facilities on top of the hill is a disgrace - substandard facilities, lousy service, food and exorbitant prices.

And yes, NZ actually believes the tourists will just keep coming and putting up with that rubbish. Australia has already found they don't.

That looks very nice Balance, it might however look a tad out of place in the Paparoa ranges - and maybe not economically viable either.

[winner69]

It's all about vision.

...NZ only knows how to build lots of houses - all using borrowed monies.


...... and now the ratepayers need to borrow another $10 billion to fix those new houses up

[Balance]

That looks very nice Balance, it might however look a tad out of place in the Paparoa ranges - and maybe not economically viable either.

That's precisely what I mean by the vision thing - why does it have to be the same as what was developed and created out of that tin mine?

Why not something recreative - beautiful lakes, walking treks, good quality hideaway resorts, health spas, good roads etc?

Put 10% of the money lost via the finance companies into developing something unique and accessible to NZers and tourists.

But we are talking NZ here - so all that NZers can think of will be how many houses they can build on any freaking piece of land.

Time to move to Matarua? Lots of cheap houses and land.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10695498

[Bixbite]

Ha ha Lord Of the Mines starring big Gerry, dont get me wrong Im not anti mining but to suggest they are a possible tourism venture is very funny :eek2:

Mining can be a possible tourism venture, it is not funny. Opal mining in Australia is a good example. e.g. at Coober Pedy, south of Australia, shops are set in the old mine sites underground. And, I can't find any green big tree at there as well.

.

[robo]

Mining can be a possible tourism venture, it is not funny. Opal mining in Australia is a good example. e.g. at Coober Pedy, south of Australia, shops are set in the old mine sites underground. And, I can't find any green big tree at there as well.

.


Opals and Oamaru Stone both very historical vs open cast coal mine with a now very tragic history , are you guys experienced tourism operators? not sure how you would market this?:(

[Xerof]

how you would market this?

Disneyworld, with the emphasis on Fantasyland

[Balance]

Latest Investigate magazine has lead article on PRC disaster - does not make for good reading for management and directors - safety issues to the fore again.

Does give some hope to Pikers though that mines do reopen after disasters.

[bob.not.a.builder]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10695585

Does this mean the mine still has lots methane present?

[winner69]

Investigate - hmmm .... I am awaiting their story on the shennagins in Timaru .... money laundering, drug running and all that sort of carry on .... maybe too big a story for the magazine and a book aometime

[mr.needs]

Don't know if anyone has already noticed but the PRC page has been removed from the NZX website

http://www.nzx.com/markets/NZSX/PRC/

[Snoopy]

Snoopy, your transtasman cousin is pulling your leg. You see, Cujodog's 10% Trailing Stop would not only have retained his capital - it would also have locked in most all of his PRC profits. (See attached chart) I suspect he wants to hit you up for a loan - and I think the money is rather more likely to be for his Christmas booze than his old Mum!


It is good to know that those mining investors running a trailing 10% stop loss would have got out Phaedrus. Those investors who follow my style of investing would have saved their capital as well, by not investing in PRC in the first place. But unfortunately cousin Cujo does seem to have an uncanny knack of getting his timing wrong. Almost as if he had been prescribed to do so ;-P. I am fairly sure that Cujodog only started investing in PRC this November.

SNOOPY

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Apparently the directors & proponents of this mine did not do science in the NZ High School I went to. It was basic science that at the bottom of any coal field they would have huge Methane problems. And where did they want to start but at the Bottom? The place where the most Methane would be.

[tony64peter]

Apparently the directors & proponents of this mine did not do science in the NZ High School I went to. It was basic science that at the bottom of any coal field they would have huge Methane problems. And where did they want to start but at the Bottom? The place where the most Methane would be.

Isn't methane LIGHTER than air? IE it would have drifted UP the mine in still air, to the coal face. This is why the cows are carbon taxed, isn't it?

[fish]

Isn't methane LIGHTER than air? IE it would have drifted UP the mine in still air, to the coal face. This is why the cows are carbon taxed, isn't it?

precisely.
Therefore there is no way out and it accumulates at the highest spot-as you say at the coal face .Requires powerful ventlation to blow it out . Suction would be more effective at every coal face but I dont know if this is used .

[friedegg]

Opals and Oamaru Stone both very historical vs open cast coal mine with a now very tragic history , are you guys experienced tourism operators? not sure how you would market this?:(

pike was a f up by all accounts,tourists like tradgedy and f ups in the world,take auswitch as an example

[Monkey Poms]

precisely.
Therefore there is no way out and it accumulates at the highest spot-as you say at the coal face .Requires powerful ventlation to blow it out . Suction would be more effective at every coal face but I dont know if this is used .

Hi Fish take a look at the attachment below, its a range of generators produced by Broadcrown (3125) fueled by methane gas. With half a dozen gas generators tapping into the roadways, through eight inch holes drilled from the top of the mine to draw the methane gas off to fuel the generators, i am not an electrical engineer and i can't estimate the total cable linked electric output.

Should the implementation of this system which i understand was on the agenda at the time Pike sought approval from DOC to mine, rather than the situation we are in at the moment with the shares valued as being worthless, we could have had the prospect of steady progress to full production. The most important issue 29 miners would still be with us.

For the DOC to give approval they would have had to bend the rules slightly, Politicians lie and bend the rules to suit themselves all around the world on a daily basis. (Gordon should have taken a stronger stance with the DOC).

The trouble we go through to protect a few trees.


Monkey Poms.

[geezy]

anyone feel weird that there is absolutely no news or mention from and about Gordon after all of this happened?

[skid]

Dont worry,the which hunt is just begining the current affairs shows have stll got alot of milage left in this one

[minimoke]

For the DOC to give approval they would have had to bend the rules slightly
MP - the chances of DOC (on the West Coast and in particular the Paparoa National Park) bending the rules slightly ought to be zero. If you get a chance, read up on Cave Creek. In brief, due to the systemic failures and negligent acts of DOC staff, 14 people from the Tai Poutine Polytech lost their lives when a viewing platform failed plunging 18 people 30m into the valley below.

[Monkey Poms]

MP - the chances of DOC (on the West Coast and in particular the Paparoa National Park) bending the rules slightly ought to be zero. If you get a chance, read up on Cave Creek. In brief, due to the systemic failures and negligent acts of DOC staff, 14 people from the Tai Poutine Polytech lost their lives when a viewing platform failed plunging 18 people 30m into the valley below.

Thanks, Minimoke. Have read the report. The DoC were damned when they did, and could be damned when they didn't.
(as in Pike's case ).
The young boy who helped shake the platform will suffer with his conscience for the rest of his life.

Monkey Poms

[pietrade]

The fact of the matter is, the Government has invested 'our' tax payer funds in Pike River, via substantial holdings in both ACC (19,753,312) and the Superannuation Fund (6,854,896). Surely those politicians in Wellington are aware of those millions of dollars now at risk. ????????
In addition, one would hope they would be considering -
1. The potentially substantial and on-going foreign exchange benefits from coal sales,
2. The potential substantial tax take, (from workers, contractors, local business and the mine itself etc)
3. The positive employment figures and job opportunities and
4. The economic benefits to the West Coast region as a whole.

Surely the Government - that's 'our' Government whether we like them or not - needs to get it's various acts together and do what-ever is needed to-
1.Re-open this mine and get it operating safely, at least for the memory of 'The 29',
2.Ensure that the economic benefits to the region and country are realized and
3.Thus ensure that the investment, of so much blood, sweat and tears is not squandered.

A Private/Public/Partnership could be a consideration.

Wotchareckon?? Anyone holding their breathe?

[Xerof]

Wotchareckon??

Funniest thing I've read all year, with acknowledgement of your good intentions



Anyone holding their breathe?


Nope

ACC and Super Fund - have you any idea how many BILLIONS have been lost on investments in these funds recently? These minor investments in PRC will be written off with a stroke of the pen, without comment or fanfare.


Re-open this mine and get it operating safely

Can't you see the 'let us down gently' pattern of announcements since day one? Now they are bringing 'may need to seal it up' into the mix.....

[pietrade]

Given that, 'with the stroke of a pen' the southern finance companies were assisted with BILLIONS of 'our' dollars', I would think that putting some energy and funds toward a venture that actually benefited a large number of people AND helped reduce our mounting o'seas debt,
could be of interest to creatures with intelligence. But then again..............?

[Kees]

mr plod has called on another expert this one from canty uni and they have decided that to plug the mine is the best way
to be 100% safe if the gag machine does not hurry up.
tomorrow pike is supose to come up with a new plan now we all know what that is don't we?

[Beagle]

Plug, seal and abandon... sounds like something NZO does with monotonous regularity.

Market knows what's coming, NZO down to 82 cents, touching six year low again.

[airedale]

For a better understanding of how and why PRC got to this stage, get a current copy of "The Listener" Dec 18th-24th and read the first letter to the editor on page 6. It outlines why safety standards have gone down hill since the abolition of the independent Mines Inspectorate. I would like to scan and reproduce the letter but havn't got the knowhow to do so.

[minimoke]

The fact of the matter is, the Government has invested 'our' tax payer funds in Pike River, via substantial holdings in both ACC (19,753,312) and the Superannuation Fund (6,854,896). Surely those politicians in Wellington are aware of those millions of dollars now at risk. ????????
I'm simply at a loss why we should expect the tax payer to throw good money after bad.
ACC has investments of $12,833,708,000. PRC is about 0.154% exposure. Its not worth their people getting out of bed for.

[Xerof]

Given that, 'with the stroke of a pen' the southern finance companies were assisted with BILLIONS of 'our' dollars', I would think that putting some energy and funds toward a venture that actually benefited a large number of people AND helped reduce our mounting o'seas debt,
could be of interest to creatures with intelligence. But then again..............?

Underwriting the country's banking system to keep a level playing field with the rest of world and avoid a run on funds is completely different from underwriting a high risk publicly listed company. Cullen had very little option but to be all-inclusive when putting the guarantee in place. In hindsight he might have been better to exclude the NBDT sector, but there you are - hindsight provides tremendous clarity.

[mouse]

If we can recover the bodies of the miners then the mine will opened again. Either with NZ ownership, or overseas ownership. I prefer NZ to own it.
The simple way is for Govt to underwrite a rights offering, so we can all participate, and keep the mine in our hands.
If that does not happen then the mine will be sold and we will all get 50 cents a share. More or less. It may take until June next year to sell the mine.

[duncan macgregor]

The mine is worth nothing at all to share holders. Debts exceed worth, its in receavership to pay out those debts with any unlikely sale of the mine its self being grabbed by those owed money. The mine was managed by incompetants who mined up hill in a high risk gas situation without vents close to the face which should have been predrilled in advance. Gas being lighter than air accumulated right at the face where the risk of explosion is greatest. Likely power cut might be the cause, where if they had the management brain, should have been generated on the site, instead of paying an extortunate ammount of money getting it laid on through rugged country. The risk of power cuts is high in that situation. The shipping it out fiasco at the start should have given an insight to management skills at the begining. Hope it goes to an overseas company myself not some namby pamby bunch of incompetants that would place JOE PLOD in charge of a rescue. Macdunk

[Kees]

The mine is worth nothing at all to share holders. Debts exceed worth, its in receivership to pay out those debts with any unlikely sale of the mine its self being grabbed by those owed money. The mine was managed by incompetents who mined up hill in a high risk gas situation without vents close to the face which should have been predrilled in advance. Gas being lighter than air accumulated right at the face where the risk of explosion is greatest. Likely power cut might be the cause, where if they had the management brain, should have been generated on the site, instead of paying an extortionate amount of money getting it laid on through rugged country. The risk of power cuts is high in that situation. The shipping it out fiasco at the start should have given an insight to management skills at the beginning. Hope it goes to an overseas company myself not some namby pamby bunch of incompetents that would place JOE PLOD in charge of a rescue. Macdunk

have to disagree that the mine is worth nothing so far they are 80mil in the red but there is between 10 and 20 billion of coal so i would say we have a bit of asset left.
as far as plod, has been a f-up from the first hours but wait for the inquiry and they are picking up the bill all the way as long as pike refuse to accept the mine back until it is 100% safe
they are paying.

[J R Ewing]

have to disagree that the mine is worth nothing so far they are 80mil in the red but there is between 10 and 20 billion of coal so i would say we have a bit of asset left.
as far as plod, has been a f-up from the first hours but wait for the inquiry and they are picking up the bill all the way as long as pike refuse to accept the mine back until it is 100% safe
they are paying.

I imagine the Police would want to recover cost from the receiver if the asset is ever in shape to sell. As for the alleged f-up, I don't think the inquiry will find the Police at fault. A heroic charge down the mine in the hours immediately after the explosion would be far more likely to have cost lives than saved them.

[root]

A heroic charge down the mine in the hours immediately after the explosion would be far more likely to have cost lives than saved them.

Come on, don't start that up again ;)

[Kees]

[QUOTE=J R Ewing;331295]I imagine the Police would want to recover cost from the receiver if the asset is ever in shape to sell.

receiver under no obligation to pay this is the same as search and rescue although on a bigger scale once the plod takes charge he can use or not any or all means
at their disposal to facilitate the rescue or recovery .
this is why imo pike is declining the return of the mine to them until it is secure safe etc.

[mouse]

I imagine the Police would want to recover cost from the receiver if the asset is ever in shape to sell. As for the alleged f-up, I don't think the inquiry will find the Police at fault. A heroic charge down the mine in the hours immediately after the explosion would be far more likely to have cost lives than saved them.
The bill for the recovery seems to me to be with Govt. Either the Fire Service or, as at present, the Police. That is what Pike paid the Fire Service levy for. Unless there is a law that says the Fire Service do not do mines.
We have 18 million tonnes of coal which still has to be got out. Plus we could take out 58 million tonnes if we were given permission to mine all mineable coal. If we could go opencast it could be more. Reports from the receivers say they have two or three enquiries to buy the mine. Presumably that is from overseas. The mine is worth many millions of dollars, providing it gets the go-ahead to do mining.
It is the job of the mine owners and Govt to work out how to mine safely. I am fairly confident that Pike shares are worth around 50 cents each. A bidding war would probably result in more. Which is why my view is to have Govt back a rights issue which would pay for the recovery and making the mine safe. Then to reopen the mine.

[Kees]

The bill for the recovery seems to me to be with Govt. Either the Fire Service or, as at present, the Police. That is what Pike paid the Fire Service levy for. Unless there is a law that says the Fire Service do not do mines.
We have 18 million tonnes of coal which still has to be got out. Plus we could take out 58 million tonnes if we were given permission to mine all mineable coal. If we could go opencast it could be more. Reports from the receivers say they have two or three enquiries to buy the mine. Presumably that is from overseas. The mine is worth many millions of dollars, providing it gets the go-ahead to do mining.
It is the job of the mine owners and Govt to work out how to mine safely. I am fairly confident that Pike shares are worth around 50 cents each. A bidding war would probably result in more. Which is why my view is to have Govt back a rights issue which would pay for the recovery and making the mine safe. Then to reopen the mine.

yep keep it in nz hands never sell the silver,

[mouse]

yep keep it in nz hands never sell the silver,
Thanks. Exactly the point.
PGGWrightson another case of undervalued stock being bought for a song.

[J R Ewing]

The bill for the recovery seems to me to be with Govt. Either the Fire Service or, as at present, the Police. That is what Pike paid the Fire Service levy for. Unless there is a law that says the Fire Service do not do mines.
We have 18 million tonnes of coal which still has to be got out. Plus we could take out 58 million tonnes if we were given permission to mine all mineable coal. If we could go opencast it could be more. Reports from the receivers say they have two or three enquiries to buy the mine. Presumably that is from overseas. The mine is worth many millions of dollars, providing it gets the go-ahead to do mining.
It is the job of the mine owners and Govt to work out how to mine safely. I am fairly confident that Pike shares are worth around 50 cents each. A bidding war would probably result in more. Which is why my view is to have Govt back a rights issue which would pay for the recovery and making the mine safe. Then to reopen the mine.

If you want some more I'm sure we can do an off market trade at say 25c

[Corporate]

The bill for the recovery seems to me to be with Govt. Either the Fire Service or, as at present, the Police. That is what Pike paid the Fire Service levy for. Unless there is a law that says the Fire Service do not do mines.
We have 18 million tonnes of coal which still has to be got out. Plus we could take out 58 million tonnes if we were given permission to mine all mineable coal. If we could go opencast it could be more. Reports from the receivers say they have two or three enquiries to buy the mine. Presumably that is from overseas. The mine is worth many millions of dollars, providing it gets the go-ahead to do mining.
It is the job of the mine owners and Govt to work out how to mine safely. I am fairly confident that Pike shares are worth around 50 cents each. A bidding war would probably result in more. Which is why my view is to have Govt back a rights issue which would pay for the recovery and making the mine safe. Then to reopen the mine.

Mouse - where can i see the reports from the receivers?

[Monkey Poms]

The simple way is for Govt to underwrite a rights offering, so we can all participate, and keep the mine in our hands.
If that does not happen then the mine will be sold and we will all get 50 cents a share. More or less. It may take until June next year to sell the mine.[/QUOTE] Mouse.

Hi, Mouse. To put a value on our investment at the moment - absolutely worthless. Anyone considering buying this mine in the future would need the DoC to change the remit and allow methane extraction boreholes from the top of the mine. I can't see any responsible foreign company taking the risk, unless there was a change of heart from the DoC.

A piece of paper from the government allowing the mine to be opencast would see our share value go up to more than the pre-explosion value. Your idea of a government rights offering would make sense, to raise the required capital from existing shareholders, to go forward. If NZO, who are now in the driving seat, had the will and the guts to try for it.

Going back to mining the coal - as before, it's not an option unless there is a concession from the govt and DoC.
An old saying over here amongst the small mines fraternity, regarding methane, is "dilution is not the solution." Borehole methane extraction required from the top of the mine.
Hope we can have another go in some shape or form at extracting the coal.

"Keep it in NZ hands - don't sell the family silver."
Better still, keep it under NZ control. MP still wants to be involved!

Seasons greetings to all the posters on this forum.

Monkey Poms

Mouse - due to your never-say-die attitude and refusal to give up, the Monkeys have voted you
the one to be in the trenches with, if the situation ever arose!

[mouse]

Mouse - where can i see the reports from the receivers?
I picked it up from The Press newspaper, Page A14, Press, 21 Dec, has a comment from the receivers of Pike River Coal. They have 'two or three overseas parties...interested in talks on buying the mine.'
This is in the business pages so I feel it is reasonably accurate.
If I was an overseas buyer, or interested in buying, I would try to buy with no commitments from Govt. So as to get the lowest possible price. I would then play cat and mouse to extract the maximum benefit from Govt for me. Hence my opinion that if Govt does not do this right we will get into another Toll Holdings fiasco. Who bought the railways but decided not to run trains.
We need to keep Pike in NZ hands.

[mouse]

Monkey Poms. Thanks, but I am trying to stay out of the trenches. Rather dangerous there.
In NZ Govt and Doc are the same people. Doc is used by Govt to hide behind. If they want to do something they tell Doc what to do.
Our Green Movement has killed mining but not milking. Milking uses labour gangs from the third world to do the work. Mining uses Kiwi labour to do the work.
Mining has very limited environmental impact, milking has wrecked our rivers. The Waikato River will cost NZ$5 billion to clean up.
Further milking worldwide kills kids who have infant formula poured down their throats using contaminated water and the milk powder used at half the recommended strength.
You can post this sort of thing at Christmas as most will not reply. Normal times I would be killed in the bombardment. Might need the trenches after all.

Happy New Year everyone.
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

[mouse]

If you want some more I'm sure we can do an off market trade at say 25c
Very interested in an off market trade at 5 cents. For 20,000. What do you think?

[bung5]

If the goverment do sign away allowing it to be opencast it won't be until after next years election

[fish]

If the goverment do sign away allowing it to be opencast it won't be until after next years election

Like you I suspect politics amongst other matters could influence future timing.
Making the mine safe could take any length of time .
Then we have retrieval of whats left of bodies
Then forensics
Then royal commission.
?law changes and tightening of safety

At any stage the receivers could sell the mine-anyone buying it will have planned how to mine safely underground.
I guess the government would like to see a future and jobs announced before the election . I also believe a consortium maybe solid energy with a rich experienced methane extracting AUSSIE miner would get more votes than selling it to the Indians or chinese

[J R Ewing]

Very interested in an off market trade at 5 cents. For 20,000. What do you think?

I was counting on being able to BUY at 5c. My interest in PRC is only via NZO.

[mouse]

I was counting on being able to BUY at 5c. My interest in PRC is only via NZO.
Which demonstrates that there is a market. The Pike Shares are worth something, if only as an alternative to the race track.
How long can the shares remain suspended? Has anyone any idea? Plus who pays the listing fees?

[J R Ewing]

Which demonstrates that there is a market. The Pike Shares are worth something, if only as an alternative to the race track.
How long can the shares remain suspended? Has anyone any idea? Plus who pays the listing fees?

Sorry Mouse, but I think you are being a bit optimistic. Sure, if they were trading, some would take a punt at some value - but I suspect not much. I think the outlook is not good for the Pike mine as it relies on either underground mining resuming or somehow getting consent for a completely different type of mine. Either option will take considerable time and new capital. Any value in the current assets is going to be called on by the receivers, secured creditors and unsecured creditors (including the Police). I just can't see there being anything left for equity holders.

As for how long they can stay suspended - Austral Pacific was listed for ages after it went into receivership.

[mouse]

I cannot see the police, or any rescue work being charged to Pike River. It is an obligation of Govt, not companies, to carry out rescue work and fire-fighting. If it was not so, we would have to pay the Fire Service before they started to pour water on the fire.
Which reminds me of Hong Kong, 1970, when I worked there. My Aunt was visiting. She asked about corruption. Look around you says I. A neighbour, Fred, had a fire. The Fire engine turned up and the firemen looked at the fire! It got bigger. A Chinese neighbour rushed down his stairs, gave the firemen HK$100 and they put out the fire. The price is probably higher now. In HK, but not here.

[winner69]

Which demonstrates that there is a market. The Pike Shares are worth something, if only as an alternative to the race track.
How long can the shares remain suspended? Has anyone any idea? Plus who pays the listing fees?

I would say until at least the reciever has done his job (as the NZX says disclosure of potentially material information about PRC is no longer under the control of the company, but is under the control of the Receiver who has no contractual relationship to NZX.)

I would say unless the receiver finds a buyer when he has finished the job the next logical step is liquidation

Maybe the PRC shares as we know them today will never be listed again

[Monkey Poms]

Best guess,what is the total debt owed by Pike to the bank and small contractors,not including NZO

Monkey Poms.

[Kees]

Best guess,what is the total debt owed by Pike to the bank and small contractors,not including NZO

Monkey Poms.

85 million according last report less whats owing to nzo =?

[mouse]

85 million according last report less whats owing to nzo =?
What is owed to secured creditors, including NZO, plus contractors etc is one piece of the business.
The other bit is the share value that NZO have. I think it is around NZ$70 million. Which makes my NZ$6,000 look quite small.
The point is, NZO will be making every effort to get most of their share equity back. Including twisting a few Govt arms.

[Kees]

What is owed to secured creditors, including NZO, plus contractors etc is one piece of the business.
The other bit is the share value that NZO have. I think it is around NZ$70 million. Which makes my NZ$6,000 look quite small.
The point is, NZO will be making every effort to get most of their share equity back. Including twisting a few Govt arms.


The other bit is the share value that NZO have

their shares will have the same value as other shareholders shares which may be zilch

[mouse]

The other bit is the share value that NZO have

their shares will have the same value as other shareholders shares which may be zilch
Both Govt and NZO will be pretty upset if the value is zilch. It could be zilch, but I think not. Govt has twin responsibilities to get the Pike mine going again and get some cash back for NZO. My Zilch, of $6,000 is an easily affordable loss. NZO has an unaffordable loss. Govt will help, or be a trifle unpopular.

[winner69]

Govt has twin responsibilities to get the Pike mine going again and get some cash back for NZO.

Mouse - why dos the Government have any reponsibility to get some cash back for NZO shareholders?

Private enterprise gambled on making zillions and the bet didn't pay off .... bad luck ... win some / lose some eh

Whether government should invest in another coal mine is another story .... first consideration would be after weighing up all the risks would it be a worthy investment.

Government going to hock things off this year to pay down debt .... wouldn't investing in a dodgy coal mine be at odds with this?

Wonder if Hugo Chavez would nationalise Pike

[winner69]

I see the chart below still reckons PRC is 88 cents .... wonder how long they will let the straight line go on for

[digger]

Both Govt and NZO will be pretty upset if the value is zilch. It could be zilch, but I think not. Govt has twin responsibilities to get the Pike mine going again and get some cash back for NZO. My Zilch, of $6,000 is an easily affordable loss. NZO has an unaffordable loss. Govt will help, or be a trifle unpopular.

Mouse i think govt will help but not in the way you are puttting it. The govt can not and should not be seen helping companies unless of coa-rse if they are banks.
The govt will get involved because of employment on the coast and because if we do not NZ will be much poorer.Keys is a business man and he well knows the need for business activity and where the poverty line is.Also need to consider the social breakdown when people feel they have not economic hope.So it is from that source i think we will seen govt involvment and if that also helps NZO it will be as well but certainly not action to specificly help NZO.

[minimoke]

The govt can not and should not be seen helping companies unless of coa-rse if they are banks.
We can add to that list "national good" railways and "iconic" airlines

The govt will get involved because of employment on the coast and because if we do not NZ will be much poorer.Keys is a business man and he well knows the need for business activity and where the poverty line is.Also need to consider the social breakdown when people feel they have not economic hope.So it is from that source i think we will seen govt involvment and if that also helps NZO it will be as well but certainly not action to specificly help NZO.
Digger - you're a little optimistic. Govt has little concern for employment on the coast - remember it was govt that shut down the sustainable logging industry and gave the Coast money to invest in Lego Blocks - which subsequently collapsed.

There will be no social breakdown - coasters are more rugged and better equipped to deal with life tragedies than most. The Unemployment and Sickness benefits will be as far as Govts largesse goes on that front. That is until the Australian miner opens up further up the roads.

My pick is that Govt involvement will go:
- fund NZ police to shut down fire and retrieve forensic evidence until this goal becomes unachievable.
- fund DOC to monitor underground fire if it cannot be put out.
- Fund Unemployment / Sickness benefits as well as Working for Families for those in lower paying jobs.
- if the fire can be put out a deal similar to Kiwirail could be brokered. That is for $1, purchase licence and other odds and sods. There the comparison probably ends. The govt said it would put in $200m if Toll Holdings put in $100m. Would NZO stump up with another $100m - I doubt it. And the govt wouldn't need NZO - it would need a miner say Solid Energy who have just spent $250m at Stockton and made a net profit of $70m.

We shouldn't expect a SCF type bail out which is what posters seem to be expecting. There is no requirement of govt to do so - and even then they are looking at avoiding a fire sale situation on the assets backing the govt loan - something PRC doesn't have.

[mouse]

The assetts of Pike are infrastructure PLUS the rights to mine almost 60 million tonnes of coking coal. Very valuable.
We of course have to retrieve the lost miners first. Then the valuation of the mine can be made. I am not losing sleep over the valuation.
I have lost a bit of sleep over the ventilation of the mine and the results for the miners. Hindsight is a great teacher.
A rights issue would get good support from Pikers if Govt underwrote it. And that would keep the mine in NZ hands plus give Govt a good profit once coal production started.

[swissboy]

On TV1 news tonight. Dramatic drop to 30 degrees celcius must mean that the fire is out but gas levels still too risky to enter

[digger]

On TV1 news tonight. Dramatic drop to 30 degrees celcius must mean that the fire is out but gas levels still too risky to enter

That is very good news that it is only 30 degrees. Normally i watch TV1 but tonight the family wanted tv3 for a change so did not hear this first hand. At 30 degrees in must not be much hotter than it feels outside some days.
They could well be in there by end of the month at this rate.Although i would say it will be with breathing appratus and not let oxygen in there for some time yet.
Still i do hope this report is correct and it is only 30 degrees now.My trust in facts from the media as you can see is a little strained.

[blockhead]

And as time goes by the value of the black gold in that mine is increasing, there will be a lot of interest in getting the mine operating again is my pick. Expect the Indians and NZO to be more than a little interested.

Blocky is still interested although my PRC investment is gone and I am in the process of swapping half my NZO holding into CUE and TEL

[mouse]

And as time goes by the value of the black gold in that mine is increasing, there will be a lot of interest in getting the mine operating again is my pick. Expect the Indians and NZO to be more than a little interested.

Blocky is still interested although my PRC investment is gone and I am in the process of swapping half my NZO holding into CUE and TEL
Never say Gone!

[Balance]

Coking coal price to reach US$300 tonne.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/4511726/Floods-to-send-coal-prices-soaring

[Hoop]

I see the chart below still reckons PRC is 88 cents .... wonder how long they will let the straight line go on for

Even if most issues are still unresolved at the mine the NZX really needs to something about PRC and PRCOA stock before 31 March 2011 (tax purposes).

[rabcat]

Even if most issues are still unresolved at the mine the NZX really needs to something about PRC and PRCOA stock before 31 March 2011 (tax purposes).

Has the NZX given any guidance as to when trading will resume in PRC? I cant see any reason why this stock is not trading again.

[Monkey Poms]

_________Article taken from stuff.co.nz science________________

Scientists poised to drill into fault

One of New Zealand's biggest science experiments has been cleared to start in three weeks.

Preparations for drilling into the South Island's Alpine Fault on the West Coast are expected to begin on January 24.

Scientists from Otago University's geology department, Crown research institute GNS Science and Victoria University's school of geography, environment and earth sciences applied for a 30-year Department of Conservation (DOC) concession to drill at one of two West Coast sites.

DOC said before Christmas it received no submissions from the public on the researchers' preferred site for the multimillion-dollar Deep Fault Drilling Project on the Gaunt Creek river flats in the Waitangi Forest Conservation Area near Whataroa.

A track will need to be bulldozed across conservation land to allow scientists to carry out the project.

Scientists had also proposed a "backup" site by the Waikukupa River bridge on State Highway 6, between the Franz Josef and Fox Glacier townships, in the Westland Tai Poutini National Park.

Researchers hope to drill two boreholes about 150 metres deep and about 50m apart where the fault crosses the river flats.

They are also considering a 1.5km-deep borehole at a yet-to-be-determined location.

The Alpine Fault, the boundary between the Pacific and Australian crustal plates, extends more than 650 kilometres from Marlborough along the western edge of the Southern Alps to Milford Sound.
__________________________________________________ ___________

It is good to see that the DOC have allowed the scientists to organise a track to be bulldozed across conservation land in the Waitangi Forest Conservation Area
this will help the men working on the project to do their job and work safely.

Monkey Poms.

[Robomo]

News reports about the mine indicate that temperature levels are still fluctuating despite the continued use of the GAG machine and nitrogen. Garry Knowles is still talking about the possibility of sealing the mine, presumably forever.
The mine is on a slope (which makes it attractive for hydro mining), minimal excavation has taken place (60,000 tonnes of coal plus rock from access tunnels) and huge amounts of water have already been used or intended for hydro mining. I suggest:

1. Seal the mine portal with concrete and with a large valve and pipeline.
2. Flood the mine completely with water pumped in through the valve. This will completely extinguish any fires, hot spots and also expel all gas and smoke. The mine would be left wet, cold and smoke free.
3. Drain the water out, enter the mine, do whatever investigations need to be done, repair and improve the ventilation, fix infrastructure, resume mining.

Cost would be minimal - only cost would be for concrete, valve, (pipeline for coal is already there so can be used to fill and drain mine). Everything could be done at the mine portal apart from a 1 way valve to allow smoke/gas to be expelled from the ventilation shaft(s). Time - maybe a few weeks to construct a concrete (or steel) seal and pump water in. Plenty of water nearby from the river and streams. There are still 29 bodies in the mine although with temperatures of 1000 C there would be little remaining. With relatively slow filling and draining and a suitable filter any remains should still be able to be recovered.

This all seems so simple - maybe there is some flaw in my logic but I can't see anything wrong with this idea.

Any comments?

[manxman]

It is good to see that the DOC have allowed the scientists to organise a track to be bulldozed across conservation land in the Waitangi Forest Conservation Area
this will help the men working on the project to do their job and work safely.

Monkey Poms.

Agreed. It is difficult to see how the mine can be reopened without a track to the top of the vent shaft, if only to allow a power supply to the main fan which does not pass through the mine. The rules will have to be changed if the mine is to re-entered safely.

[Robomo]

Robomo ... Nice idea but pretty unpaletable until the bodies are out. Is there a precedcent for what you suggest?

Not a direct precedent as far as I am aware.

Temperatures have been recorded in the mine as up to 1000C so any bodies will be just about non-existent. Wikipaedia quotes cremation temperatures of 850 to 1100C for up to 3.5 hours for complete cremation to have occurred. At best I would suspect that all that will be left are limited skeletal remains and with the sustained high temperatures in the mine DNA may have been completely destroyed. Bodies can move after death such as after drownings. At present the choice is either seal the mine permanently, in which case no bodies/remains will ever be recovered, or a recovery team is sent in to log / photograph / measure / recover what they can - with the attendant risks of gas, fire, explosion being ever present.

A relatively slow flooding of the mine may not disturb the miner's remains all that much. If they are moved and can't be identified for the reasons above then at least they can be given a dignified common burial, as happened after the Strongman explosion. If the mine is sealed then it may well fill with water anyway through natural means and I suspect that would be quite likely given the environment. PRC management would have a very good idea of the amount of free water coming into the mine.

[duncan macgregor]

The mine wont fill with water as it slopes up hill from the entrance. That was the basic cause of the disaster being that gas that is lighter than air accumulated at the face. Power cut, or whatever, increased it to unsafe proportions. The remaining miners have all been offered lucrative positions in Australia. I doubt if anyone would be stupid enough to work there if it did get reopened unless it was run by competant practical management. Simple solution was to drill vent holes in advance of the mining face. Simple cheap and safe in normal circumstances Other than upsetting a few idiot greenies. Macdunk

[Crypto Crude]

Mackdunk,
are you coming to Bermudas New YEars Bash on 5th of Feb...?
If not... why not...
:cool:
.^sc

[Robomo]

The mine wont fill with water as it slopes up hill from the entrance. Simple solution was to drill vent holes in advance of the mining face. Simple cheap and safe in normal circumstances Other than upsetting a few idiot greenies. Macdunk

Read my two posts (8175, 8178) Duncan - Seal the mine portal with concrete or steel with a valve to let water in or out.
Can't disagree with your point about venting although it would be very expensive as shown by the difficulties to drill the one hole they have driven into the face area since the explosion. However PRC have already shown that horizontal drilling has been successful for seam exploration, no reason why it could not be expanded to help drain gas prior to hydro cutting (see my previous posts about coal seam gas recovery).

[Monkey Poms]

85 million according last report less whats owing to nzo =?

Thanks Kees. NZO are owed $28.9 million for a secured bond plus $25 million loan, total $53.9 million.I assume PRC would still have a small portion of the $25m from the NZO loan left in the kitty? also funds received from Solid Energy for coal stock say $5m?. ( insurance, how much, when ? ) Excluding the funds the receiver has to work with, not including the $53.9m owed to NZO, Pikes debt to the bank & contractors = $31-1m.
NZO hold 119031670 shares in Pike =29.37% of the total shares issued.( practically worthless )
Depending on the condition of the mine, once conditions allow Pike management to make an appraisal, I feel sure that NZO will not want to call it a day on the project, together with the Pike management they may come up with a plan.
You all know what that means - raising big bucks to go forward, as well as the cash required to pay the receiver plus $31-1m outstanding for the bank and contractors.
If permission was acquired to opencast the best part of sixty million tonne of coal, funding would be assured without government assistance.

Good luck to the Greymouth District mayor Tony Kokshoorn for his efforts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kokshoorn said he would continue to urge the Government to open-cast the beleaguered Pike River Mine.

"Even if that's two years away, if they knew it was happening it would give the guys travelling to and from Australia a target. They will not be able to keep that schedule up forever, but if it's only a year or two they might.

"However, I'm not surprised so many have accepted jobs overseas. Like all of us, they have to put bread and butter on the table and if the only way they can do that is by working in Australia, good on them."

Monkey Poms,

[duncan macgregor]

Mackdunk,
are you coming to Bermudas New YEars Bash on 5th of Feb...?
If not... why not...
:cool:
.^scsorry crewd one I am a pretty busy dude at the moment. Fishing, Bowling,etc etc. I had more time when I was working mate having one of a hell of a time retired. macdunk

[Kees]

Read my two posts (8175, 8178) Duncan - Seal the mine portal with concrete or steel with a valve to let water in or out.
Can't disagree with your point about venting although it would be very expensive as shown by the difficulties to drill the one hole they have driven into the face area since the explosion. However PRC have already shown that horizontal drilling has been successful for seam exploration, no reason why it could not be expanded to help drain gas prior to hydro cutting (see my previous posts about coal seam gas recovery).

Can't disagree with your point about venting although it would be very expensive as shown by the difficulties to drill the one hole they have driven into the face area since

What difficulties it took 16 hours not counting set up time , the expense was the chopper lifting the gear up which would have been unnecessary except for the Greene's.

[pietrade]

.....................

If permission was acquired to opencast the best part of sixty million tonne of coal, funding would be assured without government assistance.

Kokshoorn said he would continue to urge the Government to open-cast the beleaguered Pike River Mine.

The Reserve Bank reports that 'our' net foreign liabilities are now GREATER, as a proportion of our economy, than those of Ireland, Greece and Spain and only slightly less than those of Portugal!!!
We are in parlous company and if we had a Govt with any real competence at all, it would be REALLY KEEN to ensure the foreign-exchange-earning coal from Pike be extracted, to help move us away from the edge of the cliff we are rapidly approaching.

We have such a Govt! Yeah. Right.

[Monkey Poms]

The Reserve Bank reports that 'our' net foreign liabilities are now GREATER, as a proportion of our economy, than those of Ireland, Greece and Spain and only slightly less than those of Portugal!!!
We are in parlous company and if we had a Govt with any real competence at all, it would be REALLY KEEN to ensure the foreign-exchange-earning coal from Pike be extracted, to help move us away from the edge of the cliff we are rapidly approaching.

We have such a Govt! Yeah. Right.

This is sad but true Pietrade, when the S--T finally hits the fan the politicians at the very top will escape the carnage( UK example Tony Blair & Gordon Brown ).The first to suffer in large numbers will be government employees. It will be a shock to many who now think they are safe.
Our present coalition Prime Minister, David Cameron, is trying to address the UK debt problem. He has stated that he is prepared to "do the right thing" for the country, even if it results in him being in power for a one-term Parliament.
If it was Tony Kokshoorn saying this, I would believe him!!

Monkey Poms

[bermuda]

sorry crewd one I am a pretty busy dude at the moment. Fishing, Bowling,etc etc. I had more time when I was working mate having one of a hell of a time retired. macdunk
Duncan/Shrewdy,
I was trolling this site for the first time in a month. Could not bring myself to read anything about it. It has made me so sad. When the earthquake arrived I looked after my wife and the next thing I thought about was the Pike River miners. That's where I thought the quake came from.

I just hope everyone can find closure.

[Crypto Crude]

All the best mah man Mackdunk...

Yeah,
we hear you Bermuda...
The real positive I can see is it has bought the families, and the community closer...
I had a blast on Christmas Day with the Rockhouses...
My mates not doing too good...So I was easily persuaded to go to aussie In Feb for a bash...
why not...
:cool:
.^sc

[Balance]

Australian floods driving coking coal price to US$350/t.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/news/asian-steelmakers-fret-as-queensland-floodwaters-choke-coal-supply/story-e6frg90x-1225983664364

[gazprom1]

This is sad but true Pietrade, when the S--T finally hits the fan the politicians at the very top will escape the carnage( UK example Tony Blair & Gordon Brown ).The first to suffer in large numbers will be government employees. It will be a shock to many who now think they are safe.
Our present coalition Prime Minister, David Cameron, is trying to address the UK debt problem. He has stated that he is prepared to "do the right thing" for the country, even if it results in him being in power for a one-term Parliament.
If it was Tony Kokshoorn saying this, I would believe him!!

Monkey Poms

It is easy to blame politicains for everything....tall poppy syndrome I think they call it. Politics is just a reflection of society. If you don't like put your hand up and go and do the job yourself. Yes, not all politicians are trustworthy but nor are all members of society.

Amen

[fish]

Attempts will be made this weekend to seal cracks around the ventilation shaft at the Pike River Coal mine and stop gasses leaking out.

Foam that expands to 35 times its original volume and hardens within about five minutes will hopefully create an effective seal that will allow the GAG and Floxal machines - which are pumping water and nitrogen into the mine - to operate more efficiently.

Temperatures and methane gas levels inside the mine continue to fluctuate, hindering attempts to get into the West Coast mine and recover the bodies of 29 men killed in a series of explosions since November 19.

Operation commander, Superintendent Gary Knowles, said the sealing work was a critical next step in the process towards stabilising the mine, and technicians from Australia would undertake the work.

The expanding Rocsil Foam had been used effectively in coal mines in Europe and Australia, he said.

A second sealing product, Fenoflex, would be used if the foam did not work.

Knowles said the sealing was specialised work which was complicated by the challenging terrain. The work was also weather dependent.

Knowles said the GAG and Floxal teams worked throughout the Christmas period.

"(They) have worked long hours and carried out crucial work in terms of the effort to stabilise and make the mine safe," he said.
Advertisement

Both machines are still operating but both temperatures and gas levels being recorded from the mine continue to fluctuate.

Earlier this week Knowles said temperatures in the mine had fluctuated by more than 100degC. The lowest had been in the 30s.

[winner69]

You guys just don't get it ..... its all going to plan ..... some have been working on this for decades and there plans are coming to fruition

Fixing debt problems is a great way for a very few already wealthy people (and only a very few) to exploit the rest of us

The solution (re Pike or the extraction of any our resources) may be for the people of NZ to take over the mine and mine it for ourselves .... with the proceeds going to support the health and education systems we want

[winner69]

This NSW pollie says he will tell BHP tp bugger off and nit to mine coal if he gets into power

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/ofarrell-shuts-out-mining-colossus-20110107-19isy.html

How much value do you put on the intangible thinsg if this is the conclusion of previous commissions '..that society as a whole would be better off if the coal was left in the ground'

[mouse]

This NSW pollie says he will tell BHP tp bugger off and nit to mine coal if he gets into power

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/ofarrell-shuts-out-mining-colossus-20110107-19isy.html

How much value do you put on the intangible thinsg if this is the conclusion of previous commissions '..that society as a whole would be better off if the coal was left in the ground'
Wonderful news. Oz will soon be as broke as Kiwiland if they can only be persuaded to stop all mining! Hurray, we can all be broke together and miners will not go across the ditch to work. Since there wont be any work. But they could enjoy nice hikes!

[Monkey Poms]

Wonderful news. Oz will soon be as broke as Kiwiland if they can only be persuaded to stop all mining! Hurray, we can all be broke together and miners will not go across the ditch to work. Since there wont be any work. But they could enjoy nice hikes!

Mouse your foresight amazes me! We can go on - if the Greens could also close down the South African and other mines, imagine millions of steel workers, ship builders, car plants workers, aeroplane manufacturing workers etc. around the world all losing their jobs. No jobs = no money = no pesky Japanese, American, Pommie and other European tourists coming to Kiwiland to tramp over the Heaphy Track!
The final victory for the Greenies would be digging up the airport runways and planting rimu trees on them.

winner69 - I haven't quite worked out yet how NZ is going to pay for your health and education systems.

Monkey Poms

[Tyro]

Thanks Kees. NZO are owed $28.9 million for a secured bond plus $25 million loan, total $53.9 million.I assume PRC would still have a small portion of the $25m from the NZO loan left in the kitty? also funds received from Solid Energy for coal stock say $5m?. ( insurance, how much, when ? ) Excluding the funds the receiver has to work with, not including the $53.9m owed to NZO, Pikes debt to the bank & contractors = $31-1m.
NZO hold 119031670 shares in Pike =29.37% of the total shares issued.( practically worthless )
Depending on the condition of the mine, once conditions allow Pike management to make an appraisal, I feel sure that NZO will not want to call it a day on the project, together with the Pike management they may come up with a plan.
You all know what that means - raising big bucks to go forward, as well as the cash required to pay the receiver plus $31-1m outstanding for the bank and contractors.
If permission was acquired to opencast the best part of sixty million tonne of coal, funding would be assured without government assistance.

Good luck to the Greymouth District mayor Tony Kokshoorn for his efforts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kokshoorn said he would continue to urge the Government to open-cast the beleaguered Pike River Mine.

"Even if that's two years away, if they knew it was happening it would give the guys travelling to and from Australia a target. They will not be able to keep that schedule up forever, but if it's only a year or two they might.

"However, I'm not surprised so many have accepted jobs overseas. Like all of us, they have to put bread and butter on the table and if the only way they can do that is by working in Australia, good on them."

Monkey Poms,

NZO (as secured creditors) are more likely to pick up the mining rights when PRC is liquidated, leaving nothing for the PRC unsecured creditors.

Govt/DoC will NEVER approve open-casting.

[Monkey Poms]

NZO (as secured creditors) are more likely to pick up the mining rights when PRC is liquidated, leaving nothing for the PRC unsecured creditors.

Govt/DoC will NEVER approve open-casting.

Tyro, You may well be proved to be right, but NEVER is a long time.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________
Originally Posted by Monkey Poms
It is good to see that the DOC have allowed the scientists to organise a track to be bulldozed across conservation land in the Waitangi Forest Conservation Area. This will help the men working on the project to do their job and work safely.

Monkey Poms.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________

Are miners any less deserving than scientists to have the facilities to do their job properly?

[kiwi_on_OE]

I wonder if Pike would have a better future as Pike River Coal Seam Gas?

[the machine]

any idea how much nzo got when the prc ipo happened?

if the asset was liquidated then nzo might end up owning it again - but how to appease the existing prc shareholders would be a challenge - many of whom also own nzo shares

[Monkey Poms]

any idea how much nzo got when the prc ipo happened?

if the asset was liquidated then nzo might end up owning it again - but how to appease the existing prc shareholders would be a challenge - many of whom also own nzo shares

If a liquidator is ever appointed NZO would have to bid against every other suitor for the mine's assets. ( hope he is an honest sort of guy ). For Pike to extract itself from receivership it will require the financial support from the present shareholders, or a dilution of the shares now in circulation, by issuing more shares to a third party for an injection of capital to go forward. I am not sure whether or not the receiver will be allowed to accept a capital injection by a third party without the approval of existing shareholders?

Monkey Poms.

[Kees]

any idea how much nzo got when the prc ipo happened?

if the asset was liquidated then nzo might end up owning it again - but how to appease the existing prc shareholders would be a challenge - many of whom also own nzo shares

any idea how much nzo got when the prc ipo happened?

Read somewhere that the shares own them 16 cents each so they are well in the box seat let alone the secured loans.
This mine will get going again as soon as the plod gets done and hands the mine back

[manxman]

I am not sure whether or not the receiver
will be allowed to accept a capital injection by a third party without the approval of existing shareholders?

Monkey Poms.

There is also the problem that the existing tax losses would not be available to a restarted company if the shareholding substantially changed, which would complicate proceedings if a third party capital injection was considered. PRC is worth more to NZO than to any outsider, so long as they can hang on to the tax losses. In liquidation, the mine assets could be sold, but the tax losses would disappear. No outsider would buy the company as a going concern because they would inherit all the liabilities without the compensating tax losses.

[Bixbite]

In liquidation, the mine assets could be sold, but the tax losses would disappear. No outsider would buy the company as a going concern because they would inherit all the liabilities without the compensating tax losses.

My 2 cents opinion on this matter :-
The exiting shareholders can establish a new company to buy all PRC's assets for $1. And then, a third party capital injection can be used for the new working process. Of course, the actual work is not so simple as two sentences.

However, before the problem of methane gas being solved, I don't think it's good to re-open the mine for underground mining. One of the problems is it is hardly to have an insurance company willing to ..........

p.s. I only have experience for one man companies, which only need to be responded by my own.

.

[kiwitrev]

Press announcement today. Between 5 and 6 pm Gerry Brownlee will announce decision on mine. A lot of people will be interested in this.

[mr.needs]

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/pike-river-recovery-operation-over-3997517

Police led recovery is over. Mine now in the hands of the receivers

[Snoopy]

Police led recovery is over. Mine now in the hands of the receivers


Receiver Doug Graves will look to appoint Dr Leonard McCoy to assist in identification of the bodies? If PRC doesn't get extra government money now, the whole NZ economy will be in trouble? How long before shareholders realise the whole deal is now sealed?

SNOOPY

[fish]

Receiver Doug Graves will look to appoint Dr Leonard McCoy to assist in identification of the bodies? If PRC doesn't get extra government money now, the whole NZ economy will be in trouble? How long before shareholders realise the whole deal is now sealed?

SNOOPY

News reports dont seem clear to me . Does howard broad now believe it is the responsibility of the liquidators to retrieve the bodies ?Does he believe in magic or starship enterprise ?

I thought the mine had just been sealed with expanding fissure sealant .

I would have thought it too early to know if this was successful .

If the police cant retrieve the bodies how on earth can the liquidators-whose responsibility is it ?

Is the coal seam fire impossible to put out and the bodies in effect cremated so the crematorium will be sealed with an everlasting flame inside ?


Snoopy can you spell out what you believe is happening ?

[winner69]

Fish - you have answered your own questions in a round about sort of way and Snoopy's post says the answer to all your questions is yes .... the mine is likely to be sealed cause the receiver ain't got any money .... and if it is ever reopened it will be under new owners

[janner]

To be brutal.. To bad. How sad. Move on..

[fish]

Winner- I suspect Howard Broad appropriately spent a lot of time with the families explaining things but then in his public statement has said the bare minimum . It appears he has given up trying to retrieve bodies and will seal the mine before handing it back to the liquidators . He hasnt told us about the temperatures-have they dropped-is the fire likely to extinguish itself if fully sealed-as theoretically it should . Then maybe the receivers could sell the mine to a company capable of extracting the methane and then re-opening the mine .
If the fire cant be put out then clearly it is unlikely to be possible to sell the mine .

[mouse]

What I think is the methods being used have now failed to cool the mine. I suspect one approach now is to seal the entry portal and then flood the mine. It is easy to do this, requires a few pipes and may even be able to use existing pipes going to the ventilation shafts. This is a cheap option and may recover the bodies. Anyway, it should be tried. Water in the mine will turn to steam and prevent explosions plus expel oxygen. This of course is armchair theory, but does demonstrate that there are solutions available. They may even work.

[janner]

Mouse..

I repeat.. To bad. How sad. MOVE ON !!..

[bob.not.a.builder]

People trying to grab air (is that the saying?). Going by the activity in this thread before the disaster I think that lots of people lost out.

[janner]

" People trying to grab air (is that the saying?). Going by the activity in this thread before the disaster I think that lots of people lost out. "..

Pike river is in my opinion finished as an oportunity in the TRADER scheme of things..

We all loose money.. Sooner or later.. We all are here to MAKE money..

Move on !!.. Pike river is not in my opinion, going to make any one money, apart for the receivers..

[the machine]

returning mine to receivers is next step in the process and may pre-empt the decision re proposal of receiver to government to re enter mine.

I would now expect receiver to start liquidating assets which inturn may provoke an offer by nzo - not in capacity of shareholder but as 1st ranking creditor.

Inturn our shares instead of being just deemed worthless but unable to claim a tax loss, are officially worthless and can claim a tax loss.

Sooner it happens the better IMO and in my case I have been building a big tax bill so this would help offset same.

Whoever buys the mine will have several years red tape trying to extract any value out of it - after next election for sure.

M

[fish]

DS has stated many times before the disaster that NZO now is an oil/gas company and they were going to dispose of its shares in prc when the time was right . They will not want to buy prc assets .
IMO best if the fire can be put out ,body remains retrieved . Mine sold complete with all assets to a company capable of minining safely . Unfortunately I doubt if the liquidators can do this . It did sound as if temperatures where dropping and the gas being sampled was methane not carbon monoxide which would mean the fire was being put out .
Howard Broad could have given us these important details .

[Xerof]

With the greatest respect to the families of the unfortunate 29 miners, I have said and will say again, the process of letting them down gently just took the final step - that is to prepare them for the last phase of this operation - sealing the mine.

As for "promises" of saving 'our boys', Peter Whittall was very clear in his response to such questions - "if I can save 1, I'll save 29" and as such renders any "promise" null and void, as he cannot now save 1

For the record, the cremation process takes a mere few hours at between 850 and 980 degrees C. There are no bodies to retrieve, and IMO, sealing the mine is the most respectful outcome.

RIP the 29

[Robomo]

News reports about the mine indicate that temperature levels are still fluctuating despite the continued use of the GAG machine and nitrogen. Garry Knowles is still talking about the possibility of sealing the mine, presumably forever.
The mine is on a slope (which makes it attractive for hydro mining), minimal excavation has taken place (60,000 tonnes of coal plus rock from access tunnels) and huge amounts of water have already been used or intended for hydro mining. I suggest:

1. Seal the mine portal with concrete and with a large valve and pipeline.
2. Flood the mine completely with water pumped in through the valve. This will completely extinguish any fires, hot spots and also expel all gas and smoke. The mine would be left wet, cold and smoke free.
3. Drain the water out, enter the mine, do whatever investigations need to be done, repair and improve the ventilation, fix infrastructure, resume mining.

Cost would be minimal - only cost would be for concrete, valve, (pipeline for coal is already there so can be used to fill and drain mine). Everything could be done at the mine portal apart from a 1 way valve to allow smoke/gas to be expelled from the ventilation shaft(s). Time - maybe a few weeks to construct a concrete (or steel) seal and pump water in. Plenty of water nearby from the river and streams. There are still 29 bodies in the mine although with temperatures of 1000 C there would be little remaining. With relatively slow filling and draining and a suitable filter any remains should still be able to be recovered.

This all seems so simple - maybe there is some flaw in my logic but I can't see anything wrong with this idea.

Any comments?

This still seems a logical solution to me.

If temperatures are still fluctuating then obviously air is seeping in (at the fault line?) sufficient to keep fires smouldering. If this is so then a further explosion is inevitable once the GAG and nitrogen machines are removed.

Flood it, drain it, remove what remains of the miners, recommence mining.

As I said in a subsequent post to the one above there will be virtually nothing left of the bodies after 1000C temperatures and certainly it is highly unlikely that there will be identifiable DNA left.

[manxman]

The main tunnel is 2 km long to the bottom of the ventilation shaft and slopes upwards at 1:11 IIRC. All the workings are further up dip. So to flood the mine would require hydraulic heads of 200 metres plus. The ground for the first few hundred metres of tunnel was not that competent, so relying on it to hold such high pressure water would be pretty dodgy.

A possible alternative would be using remotely placed Rocsil plugs to cut the mine into simple sections which could be carefully cleared of explosive gas one at a time, starting at the tunnel entrance.

For info on this see http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/mining/pubs/pdfs/uorftr.pdf

The process seems to be experimental as of the date of that paper, but three years development since may have established the technique more firmly. From what we have heard, the Rocsil sealing on site seems to have worked successfully.

[neopoleII]

they could drill a hole from the surface at the end of the tunnel / beginning of the mine and pump concrete in to plug the tunnel.
then fill the mine with water via the ventilation shaft. the water will cool the mine and extinguish the fire.
once the mine is safe, miners go up the tunnel and break out the concrete plug releasing the water downhill, at the same time as the ventilation shaft fan is switched on.

[whatsup]

What I think is the methods being used have now failed to cool the mine. I suspect one approach now is to seal the entry portal and then flood the mine. It is easy to do this, requires a few pipes and may even be able to use existing pipes going to the ventilation shafts. This is a cheap option and may recover the bodies. Anyway, it should be tried. Water in the mine will turn to steam and prevent explosions plus expel oxygen. This of course is armchair theory, but does demonstrate that there are solutions available. They may even work.


Mouse, IMHO once the rescuers get into the mine all I think that they will find will be the miners hand tools and the steel caps of their work boots, the fire was at such a huge temperature that all flesh inside the mine would have been burnt long long ago.
Sad SAd day for all concerned.

[mr.needs]

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/pike-river-recovery-operation-over-3997517

Police led recovery is over. Mine now in the hands of the receivers

Pike River mine to be sealed.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4540331/PM-Pike-River-Coal-mine-to-be-sealed

[rabcat]

Pike River mine to be sealed.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4540331/PM-Pike-River-Coal-mine-to-be-sealed

You all seem to have missed the reciever on News talk this morning. He was clear that his 1st preference is to make the mine safe and then recapatalise the company. He said he had $10m to spend to try and achieve that aim. He has till monday afternoon to finalise his plan and then discuss with the police.
Sealing the mine and walking away does not seem an option the mine must be made safe. If PRC cant do that they hand it back to DOC and it becomes their responsibilty to make the thing safe. He did not say it but I think in that situation PRC loss it rights to the mine and then the Govt would have the opportunity to resurrect the mine if it wanted to. He didnt seem keen on that option,

[Arbitrage]

Rabcat,
I find that scenario of handing it back to the government interesting. If it still needs work, then it will be a liability to the government. Surely the mining licence and resource consents would have been granted with some sort of insurance or bond to cover this outcome? I thought the govt would have learnt by now from mines such as the Golden Cross in Coromandel where ongoing costs are required to be met by Govt to prevent mine leachate entering the local river from an abandoned mine. How many other mines exist in this country where their operators could walk away from and leave us to carry the can?

[fish]

Press Release – PricewaterhouseCoopers

Yesterday, Commissioner of Police Howard Broad announced the Police’s decision to cease efforts to re-enter the mine and the attempted recovery operation due to continuing difficulties with initiatives to stabilise the mine. The Police have committed …Friday 14 January 2011

Pike River Coal Limited (In Receivership)

Yesterday, Commissioner of Police Howard Broad announced the Police’s decision to cease efforts to re-enter the mine and the attempted recovery operation due to continuing difficulties with initiatives to stabilise the mine. The Police have committed to secure the mine in the interests of public safety.

Once the mine is secured and safe, the Police intend to hand back direct responsibility of the mine to the Receivers, John Fisk, David Bridgman and Malcolm Hollis, partners from PricewaterhouseCoopers. The Receivers have been responsible for the management of Pike River Coal Limited since their appointments on 13 December 2010.

Pending this handover, the Receivers will continue to give the Police full cooperation and assistance using the resources at their disposal.

John Fisk says “as Receivers, our principal role is to achieve the financial returns for the Company’s secured lenders. However, in the case of Pike River Coal Limited, we are very aware of the extenuating circumstances surrounding not only the Company but also the families and the West Coast community, and the implications of the Company’s Receivership on all parties.

“We wish to see the mine atmosphere stabilised and inert with risk of underground fires or further explosions eliminated. The current Police-led operation has not yet been able to achieve this, therefore we need to consider alternative options. One option is to temporarily seal the mine whilst other longer-term options are properly evaluated,” adds Mr Fisk.

The Receivers are still considering the option of eventually re-opening the mine so that it can again be a major employer and contribute substantially to the West Coast economy.

As stated by the Commissioner of Police, safety considerations will remain paramount, and these will dictate next steps for us as Receivers.

In the interim, the Receivers will fulfil their responsibilities to provide information and assist the various inquiries that are underway.

[pietrade]

I can't understand how the GAG machine was ever going to achieve anything once the ventilation shaft had been sealed off. I mean, no matter how hard you blow into a bottle, you wont get to the bottom of the bottle with any air/water vapour/nitrogen. It would somehow need to displace whatever atmosphere was already present and I bet that the coal face of the mine, some 2km from the GAG machine down at the tunnel entrance,was completely out of range of any affects from the GAG.
The nitrogen producing unit should be air-lifted to a platform, by the hole which was bored down to the head of the mine, and nitrogen pumped into THE AREA WHERE THE FIRE WAS/HAD BEEN. Or is that too obvious and simple?
Also, the water (and other) pipes that ran along the walls of the mine tunnel could surely be used to carry Nitrogen in - at least to the point they were open.
Anyone know of a radio-controlled camera-toting robot, like the ones used to inspect drains? Send one of those up one of the large diameter pipes. The images could provide heaps of valuable information. Methinks there's been a lot of 'working in the dark' by people without the right experience. Time may tell.

[Aotea]

Some very good points there Pietrade.

This mine will be opened again for mining...and it will be sooner than later. No doubt about it.

[fish]

Pietrade-my guess is the hot gases -mainly water vapour and carbon dioxide wouldrise up some distance-but not 2k-and not far enough to displace the methane . The nitrogen machine would also be incapable of displacing the methane- as methane is lighter than nitrogen .
Helium being inert and much lighter than methane would displace it . You wouldnt have to fill the whole mine with helium-just drill a small hole into the area of the explosion and pump the helium in down a pipe going down the hole .

[digger]

Pietrade-my guess is the hot gases -mainly water vapour and carbon dioxide wouldrise up some distance-but not 2k-and not far enough to displace the methane . The nitrogen machine would also be incapable of displacing the methane- as methane is lighter than nitrogen .
Helium being inert and much lighter than methane would displace it . You wouldnt have to fill the whole mine with helium-just drill a small hole into the area of the explosion and pump the helium in down a pipe going down the hole .

Hey Fish normally you make good informative posts but using Helium is a bit over the top. Helium is getting very expensive and i believe the world is well past peak Helium so while it will work as you say it will not happen. The best solution is to do what the weather is doing to the Aus mines and flood it. Flooding will also cool it quickly. The reason why i believe this has not been done is due to the remains of the 29 miners. Very sad to say but their remains are well and truely ashes by now but just exactally how you tell that to the relatives is the very hard one.

[fish]

Just been speaking to my brother who hot air balloons and dives-tells me helium is very expensive but says ammonia which is very very cheap would have approxiamaely the same molecular weight as methane and would be more effective at displacing oxygen.
Pouring ammonia down a bore hole -perhaps the one they already have to measure gases might be very effective at putting out the fire at minimal cost-no more holes or expensive machines to run .
Feedback from an expert on this idea would be much appreciated-if its feasible i will phone the liquidators

[fish]

Digger-it is good to test ideas -there has to be a solution .
Sealing and flooding is easy when the mine is below water levels .
The problem here is we have a mine shaft going up a mountain for 2k .
You can do an experiment with an empty bottle and a basin of water-invert the bottle and put the neck under water-the air in the bottle is not displaced .
So if you try and fill the mine with water-even if you can stop it seeping out through faults in the rock-the water is not going to reach the highest point of the mine where the methane is .
To put out the fire you have to exclude all oxygen from around the fire-water below might not stop this .

[skid]

What a relief!,some constructive ideas,rather than the constant slagging-Good on ya guys..

[fabs]

For goodness sake seal the thing.
Right or wrong they tried there best without success so call it quits. At least the relatives know where the remains of there loved ones rest, there are lots of people who do not.
Pity a Burk like geoff try to give them unreasonable expectations to make political mileage out of it.
Sooner, but probably much, much later an opportunity will arise to resolve this.
Also a bit curious what several proposed inquiry's will achieve without access to the mine, maybe a waste of time and money.

[fish]

Fabs from my reading into the problem sealing alone may not work-as the ground above a fire drys and shrinks cracks develop that allow oxygen in . It looks as if-
1) The sooner a coal seam fire is put out the better
2) Individual mines may require different solutions
3)Undergound burning coal mines is a major world problem .

It would be good to know if sealing would work for this particular mine-maybe the coal seam is surrounded by impervious rock that will not shrink .As this would be the cheapest option and would allow later forensic investigation into the cause .

[Bixbite]

Digger-it is good to test ideas -there has to be a solution .
Sealing and flooding is easy when the mine is below water levels .
The problem here is we have a mine shaft going up a mountain for 2k .
You can do an experiment with an empty bottle and a basin of water-invert the bottle and put the neck under water-the air in the bottle is not displaced .
So if you try and fill the mine with water-even if you can stop it seeping out through faults in the rock-the water is not going to reach the highest point of the mine where the methane is .
To put out the fire you have to exclude all oxygen from around the fire-water below might not stop this .

I have never visited the Pike mine site, I don't familiar the landscape there. From the company's presentation which is released on 16-Nov-10, on page 9, there has a contour lines map, we might get some idea.

http://www.pike.co.nz/files/presentations/Shareholder_Briefing_November_2010.pdf

They can build several water tanks at the top around there, a little higher where they were mining, drill several water pipe holes down to the coal seam for each tank (like octopus), pump water up to those tanks and let the water seep down to cool the coal. Can it works???

(We provide ideas like the movie "Apollo 13". )

[STRAT]

What about sealing it to starve it of Oxygen till the fire is out then open it up again later?

Dont be too hard on me. I havent been following this thread or the project.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Bixbite will it take more or less than 10Years to get DOC"s permission to do this. Remember this is a National Park

[duncan macgregor]

What about sealing it to starve it of Oxygen till the fire is out then open it up again later?

Dont be too hard on me. I havent been following this thread or the project. Not to bad an idea for a young fella Strat. The best way to do it, is to fill the mine up with water. Easily done in a place that buckets down with rain all winter.
Facts are.
1, Mine at the entrance is the lowest point.
2, gas is lighter than air accumulates at the face or highest point in the mine,
3, There is a drill hole up to the surface at the face.
4, Clear the bush at the top and cover about five acres of ground in cheap plastic to run the rain water into the mine after plugging the entrace.
6,West coast rain fills the mine during the winter months at no cost .
If any Greenies get in the way tell them the five acres can be turned into a bloody snail farm. I presume the police might want to take part in the operation just to stuff it up like the did with the rescue. The one thing about this whole mess is, ITS IGNORANCE IS BLISS AND A FOLLY TO BE WISE. Macdunk

[warthog]

Not to bad an idea for a young fella Strat. The best way to do it, is to fill the mine up with water. Easily done in a place that buckets down with rain all winter.
Facts are.
1, Mine at the entrance is the lowest point.
2, gas is lighter than air accumulates at the face or highest point in the mine,
3, There is a drill hole up to the surface at the face.
4, Clear the bush at the top and cover about five acres of ground in cheap plastic to run the rain water into the mine after plugging the entrace.
6,West coast rain fills the mine during the winter months at no cost .
If any Greenies get in the way tell them the five acres can be turned into a bloody snail farm. I presume the police might want to take part in the operation just to stuff it up like the did with the rescue. The one thing about this whole mess is, ITS IGNORANCE IS BLISS AND A FOLLY TO BE WISE. Macdunk

Good plan Macdunk, but what are you going to do when it's full? Send in the navy divers?

The hog believes: that the police, Pike River Co., the government and others knew that within a short period of time after the first explosion, that the miners were all dead. At least those who hadn't made it out already. Early on they were slipping up in saying that it was a "recovery" operation, correcting this to "rescue" whenever they realised that they'd "misspoke". Again, they were clear that there were no survivors from day two. The responsible thing would be to have admitted this up-front, and run a rapid, considered operation to information-gather. Now here we are, many weeks on, and confusion reigns. The families and friends of those who perished feel they have been kept out of the loop and let down. PRC and the country have spent a lot of cash trying to recover bodies rather than obtain accurate information about what has happened to properly inform and improve the quality of ongoing decision-making.

The hog wishes that Macdunk would have been in charge from the outset (no kidding).

[fish]

In china the commonest way of putting out coal fires is to drill holes every 20 metres or so into the working face area and then injecting water-would doc allow this ?
It seems that dampness stopped the initial fireball at the strongman mine
-Strongman Mine Explosion

19 January, 1967, Greymouth, West Coast
What happened?

* The state-owned Strongman Mine lies 11 kilometres north-east of Greymouth, and was New Zealand's largest underground coal mine. It had been open since 1939, and had an accident-free record.
* On 19 January, 1967, just after 10:00 am, an explosion blew through the section of the mine known as Green's No 2 Rise.
* In seconds the fireball from the explosion fired through the section, killing 19 of the 240 men who were working in the mine at the time.
* An even bigger disaster was averted when just 140 metres from the point of explosion the fireball struck a wet patch in the tunnel where water was seeping through the walls. The fireball slowed, then went out, and in seconds the danger had passed.
* Within four minutes other teams of miners had reached the tunnel leading to Green's section, but were driven back by poisonous gas and smoke.
* A full evacuation of the mine was ordered, and by 10:20 the police and medical teams had arrived.
* The rescue team, equipped with breathing packs, worked for 14 hours finding the bodies of the dead miners and bringing them to the surface on rail trucks. Often they had to dig their way through falls of coal and rock. Fire damp reached dangerous levels at times, increasing the risk of another explosion.
* The first bodies were brought to the surface at about 1:00 pm. Thirteen hours later the rescue work was held up while the air cleared, and by then 15 bodies had been found.
* After a delay of five hours the rescue work resumed but when the smouldering coal burst into flames, the section where the remaining four bodies were was sealed off.
* Three weeks later two more bodies were brought out, but the last two could not be reached, and were permanently sealed off.
* A mass funeral was held on January 22 at the Karoro Lawn Cemetery in Greymouth.

Fire damp

Miners' name for a gas of mostly methane which forms as decaying plant matter turns into coal. It becomes explosive when mixed with a certain amount of air.
How many died?

19
Other events and outcomes

* Five of the rescue party were awarded British Empire Medal for their efforts.
* The report of the commission of inquiry stated that two of the Mining Regulations had been broken.
* A shot hole for a charge had been fired in a way which was against the regulations, and had broken through the face to an area where fire damp had built up in some abandoned workings, triggering the explosion.
* The abandoned workings should have been checked for gas.
* Because the Strongman Mine was State-ow

[digger]

Not to bad an idea for a young fella Strat. The best way to do it, is to fill the mine up with water. Easily done in a place that buckets down with rain all winter.
Facts are.
1, Mine at the entrance is the lowest point.
2, gas is lighter than air accumulates at the face or highest point in the mine,
3, There is a drill hole up to the surface at the face.
4, Clear the bush at the top and cover about five acres of ground in cheap plastic to run the rain water into the mine after plugging the entrace.
6,West coast rain fills the mine during the winter months at no cost .
Macdunk

Good idea in theory but this 5 acres will collect a lot of water so will need a hugh hole dug down into the mine to take all this runoff. Doc would not agree but i would. In fact it is holes every 50 metres that must be done before the mine every starts up again.Such holes would not only create damp areas but let methane escape.

[fish]

Good idea in theory but this 5 acres will collect a lot of water so will need a hugh hole dug down into the mine to take all this runoff. Doc would not agree but i would. In fact it is holes every 50 metres that must be done before the mine every starts up again.Such holes would not only create damp areas but let methane escape.

Reading about the chinese method they bulldoze the ground on top providing vehicle access and closing off cracks allowing air in.Drill Holes every 20 metres and inject water
.
PRC must already have pipes /pumps bringing water for the hydromining so water should be immediately available-no more time needs to be wasted-drill holes into the seam at the mining face most likely to be on fire and put it out -and keep doing until successful.

[duncan macgregor]

Good idea in theory but this 5 acres will collect a lot of water so will need a hugh hole dug down into the mine to take all this runoff. Doc would not agree but i would. In fact it is holes every 50 metres that must be done before the mine every starts up again.Such holes would not only create damp areas but let methane escape.Aint necesary so digger. Run off into a dam water first, then pipe to a smaller hole. Remember the drop into the mine will suck water at a great speed. Macdunk

[winner69]

Wonder how Solid Energy got on with this Strongman fire. I think this a different fire than the one that has been going for 40 years

http://www.coalnz.com/index.cfm/1,230,800,0,html

a bit - Solid Energy’s programme of active management has included covering areas where the fire was close to the surface with more than 200,000 tonnes of overburden, the injection since 2004 of approximately 100,000 dry tonnes of clay and cement kiln dust mixed with water to create an underground grout curtain, an extensive monitoring programme and other work to remove coal ahead of the fire.

[duncan macgregor]

If I had anything to do with it, this is how I would go about it. I would drill a small hole on the face side of the fault line and blast the roof down on the entrance side of the coal. Then in the safety of that I would seal the entrance at that point.
You cant fill a mine with water that runs through a fault. I would then fill the mine with winter rain water which would seep into cracks and crevices creating great volumes of steam which in time would cool the mine down. Remember after the fault line they encounterd extremely hard rock which would hold water making this a very cheap option done this way. The miners by now would have been cremated the bodies will never be found.
If ever they want to mine again I hope that they learned the simple basic lessons.
1,never mine uphill in a gas situation .
2,Generate your own power they could have done it at half the start up price plus when the coal came on stream at half the running cost.
3,Never place people in charge of emergencies that are clueless of the practical situation.
We get similar stupidity in the building game its not confined to mining.
MACDUNK

[Kees]

3,Never place people in charge of emergencies that are clueless of the practical situation.

if found guilty of that in the inquiry they should be charged with treason.

[pietrade]

Pietrade-my guess is the hot gases -mainly water vapour and carbon dioxide wouldrise up some distance-but not 2k-and not far enough to displace the methane . The nitrogen machine would also be incapable of displacing the methane- as methane is lighter than nitrogen .
Helium being inert and much lighter than methane would displace it . You wouldnt have to fill the whole mine with helium-just drill a small hole into the area of the explosion and pump the helium in down a pipe going down the hole .

That's the very point. Nitrogen produced at the new bore hole (which is closer to the coal face than the ventilation shaft) and pumped down that hole, would displace any methane which could then readily exit via the ventilation shaft. A portable (diesel driven) extractor fan situated there at the outlet, would enhance the outflow. (I'm assuming that the elect, to drive the original extractor fan, came via a line up the vent shaft itself. So there's no elect available at the outlet site)

[Aotea]

Two parties in negotiation with the receivers to re-open the mine...

[fish]

Any idea who the parties might be ?

[Aotea]

Dont know, only heard one is an established mining coy in nz and the other is a new player...

[Mr Tommy]

Phil Goff ?

[digger]

Phil Goff ?

Who is Phil goff? Is he tendering to buy the mine or what?

[Corporate]

Two parties in negotiation with the receivers to re-open the mine...

Aotea, where did you get that information from?

[mouse]

Who is Phil goff? Is he tendering to buy the mine or what?
He should be. He is the soon-to-be-ex-leader of the NZ Labour Party. Phil cannot win the election to be held October this year. So will be replaced. Soon. But Labour, which is identical to the National Party, will still lose the election. So he could be planning to become a miner by buying the mine.

[Mr Tommy]

TV1 news tonight>..

Video shown to the families of the 29 men who died in the Pike River mine explosion has offered them new hope that the remains of the men could still be recovered.

The footage from deep inside the mine was shown to family members last night. It shows parts of the mine were not damaged in the explosions.

Grey District Mayor Tony Kokshoorn says the new film, shot by a camera down a bore hole, gives the families some renewed hope.

"There is definitely a good chance that a lot of the bodies in there are still in a better condition than what we thought originally," he said.

Kokshoorn said some parts of the ceiling have collapsed onto the floor, and ladders can be seen flipped over.

He said the cement paper-type coating on dust bags was still intact.

Families spokesman Bernie Monk, whose son Michael was among the victims, said that the area looked untouched.

"It showed no explosion sort of burning or anything like that so obviously the explosion didn't reach that part of the mine.

"You could see grating on the floor that was still intact and in another part you could see a ladder on the ground," he said.

Kokshoorn says it was hard for the families not to make their own decisions on whether the mine was safe to enter after viewing the new footage.

Advertisement"I think the conclusions the families are drawing from that video is that there is hope of recovering the remains of their loved ones down that mine."

More video footage is expected to come from three new bore holes being drilled by the receivers.

Tools for monitoring gas and heat levels will also be lowered into the mine.

"We want to be able to also see what's happened down there so the cameras will assist in determining what the state of the mine is," receiver John Fisk said.

Although the footage gave the families something new to hold onto, it will be at least a month before a recovery team could even consider going in.

Because of the ongoing police investigation and the Royal Commission of Inquiry, police say the video footage cannot be released to the public at this stage.

[Hoop]

Quote "....Because of the ongoing police investigation and the Royal Commission of Inquiry, police say the video footage cannot be released to the public at this stage......"


As a shareholder and a member of the public I was made to think the pit area onwards was a complete disaster area...the police have known for two weeks that this was not so. Hmmmm now I'm wondering why this information was kept secret...doesn't make sense.

[minimoke]

Quote "....Because of the ongoing police investigation and the Royal Commission of Inquiry, police say the video footage cannot be released to the public at this stage......"


As a shareholder and a member of the public I was made to think the pit area onwards was a complete disaster area...the police have known for two weeks that this was not so. Hmmmm now I'm wondering why this information was kept secret...doesn't make sense.
I think there was an expectation there would be an attempt to recover bodies. The police must have had information that the explosion and subsequent explosion wasn't so catastrophic to make this unrealistic. At the same time information and evidence would also be collected to assist with investigations. If bodies are intact this suggests they may not have died in the explosion or fire. They may have died before the explosion or after the fire. Police won't want to prematurely release information if that may jeopardize their inquiries.

[Kees]

I think there was an expectation there would be an attempt to recover bodies. The police must have had information that the explosion and subsequent explosion wasn't so catastrophic to make this unrealistic. At the same time information and evidence would also be collected to assist with investigations. If bodies are intact this suggests they may not have died in the explosion or fire. They may have died before the explosion or after the fire. Police won't want to prematurely release information if that may jeopardize their inquiries.

Or they may have died of boredom waiting for plod to rescue them.

[Mr Tommy]

"More video footage is expected to come from three new bore holes being drilled by the receivers."

Anyone know how wide these bore holes are? You can buy pretty small remote control cameras which could be dropped down an 8in hole.

The Robotics Group 4x4 Mobile Platform w/Night Vision Camera measures 12" x 7.6" x 3.1"

http://www.robotshop.com/world/defense-security-surveillance.html

[manxman]

"More video footage is expected to come from three new bore holes being drilled by the receivers."

Anyone know how wide these bore holes are? You can buy pretty small remote control cameras which could be dropped down an 8in hole.

The Robotics Group 4x4 Mobile Platform w/Night Vision Camera measures 12" x 7.6" x 3.1"

http://www.robotshop.com/world/defense-security-surveillance.html

You would need a camera in an intrinsically safe mounting or you could fire everyone into orbit. The RocSil people have a placement head which includes a camera, mixing head and chemical hoses which all fits down a six inch bore. All mine certified

[suurin41]

What are your opionions on whether PRC shareholders are going to get any money back for the shares they own? and if so what do you think the best, worst, and most likely outcomes are?

[pietrade]

We are not alone with the problem of gas - at least our 2km concrete-lined tunnel has been a +ve.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-12293817

[mouse]

What are your opionions on whether PRC shareholders are going to get any money back for the shares they own? and if so what do you think the best, worst, and most likely outcomes are?
Peter Whittall was on Campbell Live tonight talking about trying to reopen the mine. So obviously if that happens we have a good prospect of being asked to subscribe to a 'rights issue.' Whether it will be reopened is of course in the future. We just hang on.
Shares may be worth 10 cents each at present. A sort of 'option' price.

[fabs]

MOUSE:
Hope is and will always be a great human and important virtue, but in this case really a true case of clutching at straws, sorry mate PRC shares are and will stay worthless.

[mouse]

MOUSE:
Hope is and will always be a great human and important virtue, but in this case really a true case of clutching at straws, sorry mate PRC shares are and will stay worthless.
Did not say will, nor must. Only may. At 10 cents it is an option price.
What is certain is Govt will want to have 'Kiwi Mums and Dads' on the list of shareholders. It could be politically difficult to have New Pike totally owned by China.

[J R Ewing]

Did not say will, nor must. Only may. At 10 cents it is an option price.
What is certain is Govt will want to have 'Kiwi Mums and Dads' on the list of shareholders. It could be politically difficult to have New Pike totally owned by China.

Who do you see designing, developing and running "new pike"? I'm not sure whether NZO would want to invest again, and I'm not sure I would want them to as an NZO shareholder. Re your point re Chinese ownership, "old pike" has substantial Indian ownership and maybe these parties might be more keen than NZO to re-capitalize.

[Ian]

Radio NZ Updated at 6:12am on 27 January 2011

The receiver of the Pike River coal mine says an idea to tunnel a new access point into the mine has not yet been explored.

Grey District Mayor Tony Kokshoorn says experts have raised the idea of sealing the main shaft and tunneling another way in, which could take two years.

However, John Fisk of PricewaterhouseCoopers says no detailed work has yet been done on that idea.

Mr Fisk says the receivers will take over the operation next week, but in the meantime, two new boreholes are being drilled which should take about four weeks.

[neopoleII]

digging a new shaft seems pointless, the one that is there now is fine....sort of..........
what they need to do is drill a few ventilation shafts and csg taps.
then open the original tunnel and fix any damage.

[blockhead]

I know b... all about mining coal but it would seem to me the least expensive way to get cracking again might be to drop a pile of explosive down a hole somewhere as close to the coal face as possible with the objective being to seal the tunnel and then start from scratch there, using the existing tunnel as much as possible.

How silly does that sound ??

[iceman]

Below article is from the Sunday Star Times today. Good on the Mayor for trying to talk sense into the politicians !

GREY DISTRICT mayor Tony Kokshoorn is pleading that Greymouth not be left to die in the wake of the Pike River disaster.

He says miners could work in an open-cast coal mine around the remains of the 29 men left underground.

"If they can't get in, that is when they would have to work around that area or in a different area away from the bodies."

Kokshoorn said with up to $10 billion worth of coal in the area, people were desperate for mining to continue.

"The families want to see that mine go ahead. They know their loved ones left down there would want that."

November's blast claimed the lives of 29 men and Kokshoorn is calling for open-cast mining amid fears the town will be the next casualty if environmental concerns are put before jobs. He revealed last week he had had discussions with Energy Minister Gerry Brownlee about Pike River's future.

Kokshoorn said open-cast mining was safer and the financial benefits outweighed environmental concerns.

"I believe that mine will operate into the future... it will be open-cast or tunnel mining. Open-cast is safer.

"You can get 95% recovery, whereas if you tunnel, you only get 60% of the coal out because you have to leave pillars behind to hold the mountain up."

The estimated $6b seam could generate $10b extracted that way. "The possibility is there and I think the deceased miners would have wanted that."

Brownlee had said the government would look into the possibility, he said, but the minister told the Sunday Star-Times no decision was imminent.

"Something happened in that mine and 29 people died. We have to know what before we start considering the future of the place," he said. "We have a Royal Commission to go through and we are a long way off consideration of what the mine's future might be."

Kokshoorn's comments came as the NZ Warriors and the Newcastle Knights played a fundraising rugby league game in Greymouth yesterday, which the mayor described as a "miner's solidarity day".

A coronial inquiry last month ruled the miners probably died at the time of the initial explosion or shortly afterwards, and the mine is still too dangerous for recovery teams to enter it.

The Royal Commission – headed by High Court judge Justice Graham Pankhurst – will try to find the cause of the tragedy, reporting back by March next year. Regardless of the outcome, Kokshoorn said work should continue – as a tribute to the miners and to boost the fragile West Coast economy.

Ad Feedback "I have had advice from coal producers that over a third of the mine can be open-cast. It could be at the same depth as Stockton [also on the West Coast]," he said. "If you do that you have more than one access, and you solve the ventilation problems."

Kokshoorn said leaving the valuable resource in the ground was stupid. "Why would you leave it when you have more than $300 million worth of infrastructure sitting at Pike River?"

He believed Pike River should have been open-cast all along, but "restrictive DoC conditions" and the price of coal at the time the mine started – which has since risen from about $50 a tonne to more than $200 – meant it was prohibitive.

ROYAL COMMISSION MUST GIVE ANSWERS

Grey District mayor Tony Kokshoorn is confident the Royal Commission will uncover the truth behind the Pike River mine explosion.

"I know the police are doing 400 interviews all up, and have all the computers from Pike River, all the hard drives."

Kokshoorn said families and friends of the Pike River 29 were desperate for answers.

"People are trying to move on, naturally. But they are still shocked it actually happened."

He said it was important from the Coast's perspective that the commission come up with explanations, so further tragedies could be prevented. "We have a lot of miners and we have to make those mines safe."

Kokshoorn said the issue of being unable to quickly recover the miners' bodies had to be raised, as did the decisions of the police heading the initial search and rescue.

"They need to ask if police or search and rescue should run things." He said that was not a criticism of the police, but "I just think people should stick to their knitting".

[skid]

Whatever happens,including decisions,will happen after the election.
Hopefully once thats out of the way we will see real progress

[skid]

Whatever happens, including decisions ,will undoubtably happen after the elections.
Once thats out of the way hopefully there will be real progress

[fabs]

How can there be a conclusive inquiry without complete access to the inside of the mine?
More time and money wasted.

[root]

How can there be a conclusive inquiry without complete access to the inside of the mine?
More time and money wasted.

Most of the investigation can be concentrated on the documentation of the system processes that were in place at the time of the accident and the suitability of the safety designs for the ongoing operation of the mine. For example I believe this is the first time the prime movers for a main ventilation system have been situated in the mine itself.

There is a lot that an investigation will turn up even if it doesn't clearly indentify the ignition source, our National mines inspection framework might get some closer scrutiny as well, the process should be followed if there is a chance of saving lives in the future.

I personally think there will be a lot to come out of it.

[Lion]

This link posted on HotCopper makes interesting reading.

http://www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/pike-river-could-have-future--shareholder

[Monkey Poms]

Iceman, that was a good article by the Sunday Times expressing the views of Tony Kokshoorn.
__________________________________________________ ___
"They need to ask if police or search and rescue should run things." He said that was not a criticism of the police, but "I just think people should stick to their knitting" Quote
__________________________________________________ ____
I think the police took the wrong advice, presumably from some expert, waiting nearly two weeks for the GAG machine to arrive on site from Australia, two weeks wasted allowing the fire to take hold.
The mine portal should have been sealed within hours of the second explosion by blocking the mine entrance with earth to cut the supply of oxygen. The equipment was on site to do this, the whole operation would have taken a matter of hours.

Monkey Poms

[Monkey Poms]

Whatever happens, including decisions ,will undoubtably happen after the elections.
Once thats out of the way hopefully there will be real progress

Skid, the election is a long way off. Haven't the present politicians in charge had enough time to express their position on where they stand regarding opencasting the Pike mine?

Had a great day on Thursday, boating in Tasman Bay area. Followed a pod/school of dolphins up to Awaroa. Magic!
Today I heard a couple of orcas had been sighted off Separation Point. I packed a spare pair of pants, as I have never seen an orca in the wild, fearing what my reaction would be should one pop its head up nearby.

I think it's a good idea for the politicians of the two main parties to also carry a spare pair of pants before they are interviewed on tv in future. If they are asked the direct question,"How do you stand on opencast mining of the Pike River Coal site? Yes or no, please," the shock of actually having to give a DIRECT answer could be dodgy.
( failure to give a direct answer should result in a fine of NZ$ 5,000 to be donated to Tony Kokshoorn's PRC fund ).

PS: nobody remembers politicians who do nothing.

Monkey Poms

[iceman]

Now the Mayor has gone further in an interview with Radio NZ, suggesting that if Pike River could be turned into an opencast mine, as it should, the District Council could hand over equivalent or bigger slices of land to be placed with DOC in the conservation estate. We need this man in national politics ! Wouldn't even need another pair of pants MP !


Iceman, that was a good article by the Sunday Times expressing the views of Tony Kokshoorn.
__________________________________________________ ___
"They need to ask if police or search and rescue should run things." He said that was not a criticism of the police, but "I just think people should stick to their knitting" Quote
__________________________________________________ ____
I think the police took the wrong advice, presumably from some expert, waiting nearly two weeks for the GAG machine to arrive on site from Australia, two weeks wasted allowing the fire to take hold.
The mine portal should have been sealed within hours of the second explosion by blocking the mine entrance with earth to cut the supply of oxygen. The equipment was on site to do this, the whole operation would have taken a matter of hours.

Monkey Poms

[dsurf]

In herald

Kokshoorn calls for open cast mine at Pike River
7:16 AM Monday Feb 7, 2011 Share
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Expand Grey District Mayor Tony Kokshoorn. Photo / Herald on SundayGrey District Mayor Tony Kokshoorn has again called for an open cast mine at Pike River to extract around $6 billion of coal to boost the West Coast economy.

The mine has been closed since November 19 after a series of blasts killed 29 miners, whose bodies remain trapped in the mine. Pike River Coal is in receivership.

Mr Kokshoorn told Radio New Zealand an open cast mine would provide welcome employment and economic opportunities to the West Coast and New Zealand.

"If we want to remain a wealthier country we need to get that coal."

Open cast mining at the site - on conservation land in the Paparoa Ranges - would involve removing 150m of rock to reach the coal seam.

Mr Kokshoorn said the council could hand over land to be placed in conservation estate so that it could be dug up, which he said would provide a net gain for the conservation estate.

"It could be a win-win," he said.

Energy Minister Gerry Brownlee has not ruled out the idea, but said he would await Royal Commission findings into the disaster.

- NZHERALD STAFF

[manxman]

Had a great day on Thursday, boating in Tasman Bay area. Followed a pod/school of dolphins up to Awaroa. Magic!
Today I heard a couple of orcas had been sighted off Separation Point. I packed a spare pair of pants, as I have never seen an orca in the wild, fearing what my reaction would be should one pop its head up nearby.

Orcas are generally friendly allthough they do make your boat seen a couple of feet shorter. www.tinyurl.com/orcaback shows some orca up our way enjoying the surf. The photographer (from our local newspaper) realised he was sharing a wave, so he hopped out of the water (to get his camera you understand) and grabbed some shots. Enjoy your day.

[Monkey Poms]

IF permission is granted sometime in the future for PRC to be made into an opencast mine, it would be wise for the Greens & etc. to allow management more leeway in deciding best practice regarding work & safety. Re: some of the restrictions imposed by the DOC on the first consent.

I'd like to mention the tragedy last week of a 45 year old Collingwood man who died after his Terex dump truck plunged 200 mtrs down a Golden Bay dolomite quarry on Mt Burnett in Kahurangi NP.
The Greens & others who are watching their city of Christchurch's buildings & infrastructure being repaired might like to spare a thought or two as to where some of the materials come from, & the cost in human life that sometimes has to be paid.

My own view is that should opencast go ahead, an access track would of course be required, possibly to the left of the portal.
The first mined strip of cubic earth/rock to be stripped could be used to build a track - NO, a ROAD ( the width of a German autobahn ) up to the top of the mine, which would ensure safety in winter conditions.

PS: have any of you guys ever driven up to the Queenstown ski fields on the Cardrona road in the middle of winter? (dodgy). Won't take that route to Wanaka again at that time of year.

Monkey Poms

[Monkey Poms]

It's good to see your Prime Minister & the opposition leader meeting & discussing the Pike situation in a "constructive & cordial" way. Does that ever happen in Australia on any issue?

Monkey Poms

[the machine]

It's good to see your Prime Minister & the opposition leader meeting & discussing the Pike situation in a "constructive & cordial" way. Does that ever happen in Australia on any issue?

Monkey Poms

this may lead to the greens being sidelined instead of holding sway like they did for so long

freeing up mining development [not at any cost though] would be good for nz - might even entice some of the locals to either stay in nz or return from working in australia. Scratch that last bit - locals can leave and we can go over to nz for a working holiday

M

[Mr Tommy]

From todays Stuff:

Trade creditors and New Zealand Oil & Gas may be the biggest losers from the receivership of Pike River Coal, according to the first report from PricewaterhouseCoopers.

Unsecured creditors owed $31.9 million are unlikely to get anything back, according to the assessment from John Fisk, David Bridgman and Malcolm Hollis.

Of that, trade creditors are owed $15.4 million, and NZ Oil & Gas is owed $13.2 million, the report shows.

NZOG owned 29 per cent of the shares of Pike as well as being a major funder via $39million of convertible bonds and a $12 million short-term loan.

Bank of New Zealand and Solid Energy are the other secured creditors, owed $22 million and $1.2 million respectively.

All up, the receivers have received creditor claims for $110.4 million, according to the report.

"At this time, the outcome of the receivership is very uncertain," the receivers said.

"Given this uncertainty, our current best assessment is that it is unlikely that any funds will be available to meet the claims of unsecured creditors."

Pike called in the receivers after the November 19 mine explosion that killed 29 employees and left the company with no sources of revenue or immediate cash flow.

The company did have $10.9 million of cash on hand at the time the receivers took over, allowing preferential creditors including employees, the Inland Revenue Department and New Zealand Customs to be paid.

The receivers have also sold 5,000 tonnes of stock-piled coal.

Their strategy now is to stabilise the mine with a view to either restructuring the company or selling the assets while at the same time maintaining a core team of workers to maintain the mine site and pursuing insurance claims.

The receivers have had "unsolicited expressions of interest" in Pike's assets, though they are still considering options for the mine.

Under the terms of a Deed of Priority, BNZ and NZOG rank equally and have priority over Solid Energy among secured creditors.

Shares of NZOG rose 1.2 per cent to 87 cents today and have shed 30 per cent of their value in the past six months.

The shares are rated 'outperform' based on the consensus of six recommendations compiled by Reuters.

[Xerof]

Unsecured creditors owed $31.9 million are unlikely to get anything back, according to the assessment from John Fisk, David Bridgman and Malcolm Hollis. Of that, trade creditors are owed $15.4 million, and NZ Oil & Gas is owed $13.2 million, the report shows

Interesting, I assume this was the second tranche of funding they disbursed after the explosion - how the hell did NZO allow itself to lend it on an unsecured basis?

[Ian]

Interesting, I assume this was the second tranche of funding they disbursed after the explosion - how the hell did NZO allow itself to lend it on an unsecured basis?

NZO has a very large investment in PRC, at the time their thinking may have been a small investment of cash during the crisis may have helped protect there very large investment by allowing the recovery and business to proceed. It may in the end be lost money, but at the time it may have been good investment to help reduce the risk of losing their investment.
It may also have been the right thing to do in terms of helping the rescue effort as well.

[Xerof]

Point missed entirely - they had a 25mill facility - 12 was drawn on before the explosion, secured....why was the next drawdown not documented under the same terms ?

Perhaps Chris Roberts can elaborate?

[Ian]

Point missed entirely - they had a 25mill facility - 12 was drawn on before the explosion, secured....why was the next drawdown not documented under the same terms ?

Perhaps Chris Roberts can elaborate?

Didn't they draw down the last 12m after the explosion, so could the short term loan be the 12m and the 13.2m unsecured be the first part of the draw down. ?
Can’t remember the original terms of the 25m funding

[777]

This is on the NZO website

26 November 2010
NZOG provides funding
NZOG (New Zealand Oil & Gas Ltd) has today provided the balance of a short-term funding facility to Pike River Coal Ltd (PRC).
The $25m facility was agreed in September 2010, to support PRC as it commissioned the hydro-mining equipment and prepared for regular coal shipments.
Since September, $13m of the facility had been drawn by PRC to meet operating costs.
Following the first explosion at the Pike River Coal mine, the NZOG Board was advised that the outstanding loan was repayable and that NZOG had no legal obligation to advance any further money.
The Board resolved that it would not seek immediate repayment and that it would honour the spirit of the agreement and make the remaining $12m available to PRC.
That sum has this morning been transferred to PRC. NZOG has also agreed to extend the repayment date from 15 December 2010 to 28 February 2011, and to defer interest payments that would otherwise be due until that time.
NZOG Chief Executive David Salisbury says it is the right thing to do.
“NZOG has always managed its investment in PRC with the best interests of NZOG shareholders in mind. This decision was taken because there are sound business reasons for honouring our earlier funding commitment. It is also the right moral decision. During this difficult time, the mine company’s workforce needs to know it can still be paid.”
NZOG also holds US$28.9m in secured Convertible Bonds. NZOG has agreed to a 90 day standstill period for the Bonds, including deferred payment of interest.
NZOG has made a $500,000 donation to the Pike River Miner’s Relief Fund.

[Mr Tommy]

Heres another article from NBR today.
No mention of the extra 3 boreholes being drilled to have a peek in the mine tunnel.


The assets of Pike River Coal are attracting buying interest as the extent of the mining company’s debts become clearer.

Receivers from PricewaterhouseCoopers say they have received unsolicited expressions of interest from various parties in the assets since their appointment on December 13.

“At this stage we will continue to deal with immediate issues, and are still considering the longer term options available with respect to the mine and its related assets,” John Fisk, David Bridgman and Malcolm Hollis said in their first report out today.

Stock piled coal had already been sold to Solid Energy, they said.

According to the first report, creditors claim to be owed a total of $110.4 million, with more than half of that due to major shareholder New Zealand Oil & Gas.

The receivers noted that their primary focus currently was on trying to stabilise the mine and on the handover to the company from the police.

Pike River Coal was placed in receivership in December after its main asset was devastated by a series of deadly explosions, which killed 29 miners.

Several inquiries are underway including a Royal Commission into the disaster.

Secured creditors
There are three creditors holding general security interests over Pike River’s assets.

These include NZ Oil & Gas (owed $51.2 million), Bank of New Zealand (owed $22.41 million) and Solid Energy ($1.2 million as part of a coal transport agreement).

PWC said the BNZ and a security trustee on behalf of NZOG have priority over Solid Energy.

The securities granted in favour of BNZ and NZOG rank equally and any distribution must be on a pro rata basis, the report noted.

Bleak outlook for unsecured creditors
So far total unsecured claims of $31.9 million had been received from parties including a $13.2 million short-term loan from NZOG.

Trade creditor claims of $15.4 million have been received.

“At this time, the outcome of the receivership is very uncertain,” PWC said. “Given this uncertainty, our current best assessment is that it is unlikely that any funds will be available to meet the claims of unsecured creditors.”

Shareholders
No estimate was given as to any value the shares of the company might have either now or in the future should they come off suspension.

“At this stage it is too early to ascertain when or whether the suspension of the listings will be lifted or trading in the shares may resume.”

Trading in the shares was suspended on November 19 when the first explosion occurred.

Employees
As at the date of receivership the company had $10.9 million of cash.

All 115 employees made redundant following the receivership have been paid their full preferential entitlements to a maximum of $18,700.

The receivers have retained 28 employees to provide management, technical and administrative services.

PWC is also employing a further 12 staff on a casual basis.

[Xerof]

I understand the reasons behind what they did - my point is how did any monies lent ever go on an unsecured basis?

[CJ]

I understand the reasons behind what they did - my point is how did any monies lent ever go on an unsecured basis?

What is the value of the remaining assets. Your question could be academic given they are unlikely to recover their full secured amount anyway unless they can get the mine converted to open cast.

[Xerof]

Yes could be merely academic, and thats probably the truth of the matter, however, the issue still remains, if you are going to give shareholders money away (for admirable reasons at the time accepted), wouldn't you at least put yourself in a position most favourable for recovery?

enough on this from me - ozzies opened

I'll let shareholders in NZO pick up the baton if they think there's any merit

[fabs]

Would like to have some details as to total tonnage of stockpiled coal at date of explosion?
From memory there was to be a shipment of between 30-60000 tonnes by end of 2010 or beginning of 2011.
Get the impression they where no where near on track to achieve that at the time.
Lets have some official figures, could be interesting.

[Mr Tommy]

Would like to have some details as to total tonnage of stockpiled coal at date of explosion?
From memory there was to be a shipment of between 30-60000 tonnes by end of 2010 or beginning of 2011.
Get the impression they where no where near on track to achieve that at the time.
Lets have some official figures, could be interesting.


Fabs - heres the official figure from the receivers report:
7. Coal Stock
At the date of our appointment the Company had approximately 5,000 tonnes of stock-piled coal.

Heres a link to the report:
http://www.pwc.com/nz/en/pike-river-coal/pike-river-receivers-first-stat-report-13-feb-2011.pdf

[Chris Roberts]

I understand the reasons behind what they did - my point is how did any monies lent ever go on an unsecured basis?

The $12m provided by NZOG to PRCL following the 19 November explosion was secured. See Appendix B of the Receivers' First Report.
http://www.pwc.com/nz/en/pike-river-coal/index.jhtml

The $13m provided over September/October was unsecured and was due for repayment in December.

[brucey09]

what outfit in the circumstances provide unsecured advance?

[Xerof]

Chris, thanks for clearing that up.

I acknowledge its very common, in fact almost universal, for related entities to lend/borrow to/from each other unsecured under 'normal' circumstances.

[Monkey Poms]

Would like to have some details as to total tonnage of stockpiled coal at date of explosion?
From memory there was to be a shipment of between 30-60000 tonnes by end of 2010 or beginning of 2011.
Get the impression they where no where near on track to achieve that at the time.
Lets have some official figures, could be interesting.

fabs, the receiver had a figure of 5000 tonnes of coal on stock at the time of their appointment.
I thought the number was near to the 20000 tonne level. Not sure of the source of information regarding coal tonnage, could anyone who attended the PRC open day about a week prior to the mine explosion ask or hear the question of coal stock?

Monkey Poms

[fabs]

Monkey Poms:

I remember reading some tonnage being taken off PRC's hands by S/E after the disaster, but whether that relates to the 5000 or not is unknown to me, just how much sell-able coal is still outside the mine also an unknown.
Perhaps Mr. Chris Roberts can help out here as i can not see this to be sensitive industrial info now.

TOTAL TONNAGE SOLD AND SELL-ABLE COAL ANYBODY PLEASE.

[geezy]

will the nz govt, do whats politically not correct but economically wise to re open the mine? i hope PRC can be a game changer for the NZ economy.

[Sideshow Bob]

will the nz govt, do whats politically not correct but economically wise to re open the mine? i hope PRC can be a game changer for the NZ economy.

On TV1 news the other day, they did mention that the receivers did receive some (unsolicted) interest in the mine, seemingly from more than one party.

[Monkey Poms]

fabs, there were no stockpiles of coal at the Ikamatua site.
The last coal left the mine site 3 - 4 weeks ago. The only coal I saw being transported was from the Roa mine ( and plenty of it in large volumes ). Roa now have an open-cast operation, situated about 2 -3 kms as the crow flies from the Blackball Hilton. They are mining in the Paparoa Range, same as Pike. Looks to be similar terrain, too. The overburden above the Roa coal seams appear to be about the same depth as Pike's would be if they had open-cast.

Monkey Poms

[Lion]

On TV1 news the other day, they did mention that the receivers did receive some (unsolicited) interest in the mine, seemingly from more than one party.

First report from receivers says there's interest in PRC from more than 10 companies, some big internationals.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/pike-river-2010/68755/plenty-of-interest-in-buying-pike-river-mine

On this link above, there is a further link to the audio on Radio NZ news tonight. Local mayor Tony Kokshoorn seems to think there's real hope of re-opening the mine.

[Balance]

First report from receivers says there's interest in PRC from more than 10 companies, some big internationals.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/pike-river-2010/68755/plenty-of-interest-in-buying-pike-river-mine

On this link above, there is a further link to the audio on Radio NZ news tonight. Local mayor Tony Kokshoorn seems to think there's real hope of re-opening the mine.

Any way someone can buy a few PRC shares?

[percy]

Any way someone can buy a few PRC shares?

I expect you can advertise or do a Bernard Whimp,but best to check with the share registry that they can be transfered into your name.I did buy SCY and Renouf while they were delisted and had no trouble transfering them into my name.

[winner69]

Wonder if the hero of many Kokshoorrn has given up on his idea of getting the receiver to write to shareholders and asking them to front up with $5m to get the boys out of the mine

Probably thought the repsonse would be ... well not that responsive

[Lion]

Any way someone can buy a few PRC shares?

You could always buy some NZOG to get exposure to PRC, Balance.

[Balance]

You could always buy some NZOG to get exposure to PRC, Balance.

Not NZOG - bunch of hopeless management. If there's a way to stuff things up, they will.

[Monkey Poms]

will the nz govt, do whats politically not correct but economically wise to re open the mine? i hope PRC can be a game changer for the NZ economy.

If Tony Kokshoorn can help to persuade the government to allow open-casting of the mine it will
certainly be a game changer for NZOG. ALL the coal could be open-cast. The total value would be
somewhere over 18 billion NZ$. That's the equivalent of NZOG finding an oil field with 135 million
barrels of oil in it and owning 29% of it.

Just hope the directors of NZOG aren't too old and tired to try again on this one.

Monkey Poms

[boysy]

How much would it cost to develop however ?

[digger]

If Tony Kokshoorn can help to persuade the government to allow open-casting of the mine it will
certainly be a game changer for NZOG. ALL the coal could be open-cast. The total value would be
somewhere over 18 billion NZ$. That's the equivalent of NZOG finding an oil field with 135 million
barrels of oil in it and owning 29% of it.

Just hope the directors of NZOG aren't too old and tired to try again on this one.

Monkey Poms

Hi Monkey Poms
I have a large holding in NZO and would be very much in favor of looking into open casting the mine.Yes there is indeed a hugh cash pile worth of caol there but we now have to wait for two big events to pass. Firstly govt's first job is to get reelected so no public decission will come out of either major party until after the 29th november..Then we really have to wait until after the Royal commission to know what went wrong and if it can be avoided in the future.To do otherwise would be to assume without full investagation that you already know. There are many theories about the blast but we have to wait to fulluy know. That will be in about 12 months time. For now though i think no harm in looking at scenarios,just nothing in concrete.

[Lion]

Monkey Poms - you know more than I do about this game. Do you really think it is possible to open-cast all the coal? I've read opinions that there is just too much overburden, but then as someone else said, $18b talks pretty loudly.
I sincerely hope it is possible. And if so, it seems pointless to wait this amazingly long year and a bit from now for the Royal Commission to find their findings. No reason why they couldn't start open casting sooner at the top end, away from the existing shaft. Well, there are other reasons, but none that legislation couldn't change.

Those are pretty impressive figures you gave about the equivalent of NZOG having 29% of a 135mm barrel oil well!

Nobody has talked much about PRC starting trading again, but it's a possibility, I think.

Not forgetting the dreadful impact on the miners' families, it's possible the West Coast and some shareholders and New Zealand could see some economic benefit from all that valuable coal still sitting there.

[the machine]

Hi Monkey Poms
I have a large holding in NZO and would be very much in favor of looking into open casting the mine.Yes there is indeed a hugh cash pile worth of caol there but we now have to wait for two big events to pass. Firstly govt's first job is to get reelected so no public decission will come out of either major party until after the 29th november..Then we really have to wait until after the Royal commission to know what went wrong and if it can be avoided in the future.To do otherwise would be to assume without full investagation that you already know. There are many theories about the blast but we have to wait to fulluy know. That will be in about 12 months time. For now though i think no harm in looking at scenarios,just nothing in concrete.

nationals may still make a decision about open cast mining before the election - that way they can demostrate they are doing things for the economy - yes its a bit of a risk for them. assuming they make that decision then labor would be put in a very awkward position - either support it or reject it - me thinks they would support it so as to sideline the issue going into an election. to reject it [or stall it] would not be good for labor in the voting booth.



m

[Monkey Poms]

.
Monkey Poms - you know more than I do about this game. Do you really think it is possible to open-cast all the coal? I've read opinions that there is just too much overburden, but then as someone else said, $18b talks pretty loudly.
I sincerely hope it is possible. And if so, it seems pointless to wait this amazingly long year and a bit from now for the Royal Commission to find their findings. No reason why they couldn't start open casting sooner at the top end, away from the existing shaft. Well, there are other reasons, but none that legislation couldn't change.

Those are pretty impressive figures you gave about the equivalent of NZOG having 29% of a 135mm barrel oil well!

Nobody has talked much about PRC starting trading again, but it's a possibility, I think.

Not forgetting the dreadful impact on the miners' families, it's possible the West Coast and some shareholders and New Zealand could see some economic benefit from all that valuable coal still sitting there.

In the UK the number which is bandied around, opencast pays dividends at a ratio of 22 parts overburden to 1 part coal.
The last open-cast mining operation I saw mining steam coal used a cheap explosive to shatter the overburden.

The depth of Pike's overburden depends on who you talk to ( I don't know for sure ).It varies between 70m and 180m to extract a 9m to 12m coking coal seam of which the value per tonne is nearly twice the price of steam coal.

My quick glance at the Roa open-cast ( the same mountain range as Pike ) suggests to me that the overburden may not be that hard.Pike is under the 22 to 1 range.

The feeling of our group, who have shares in Pike, is that they are not too keen to subscribe to a new share issue if it is on the basis of underground mining, and "Yes', to a man, should open cast be allowed. (provided that any new funds raised could be ring-fenced for the purpose of open-casting the mine ).

Our accountant's view is that present share holders of PRC will be screwed and won't get the chance to participate in any future share issues. The Receiver will sell the mine on the cheap. Time is running out. The money's running out and we're going to get the crumbs.

Monkey Poms

[Lion]

Hmmm, thanks, I think, MP But they do say at least ten parties have an interest in PRC. Wouldn't they want to pick up the shares, and if there's sufficient interest, and bearing in mind that ever-present background figure of $18b, they might bid up the price? Wishful thinking, maybe. But certainly more fun than the depression of the last few months! Hope springs eternal, although it's not a good reason to invest. Cheers, Lion

[Mark Martin]

fabs, the receiver had a figure of 5000 tonnes of coal on stock at the time of their appointment.
I thought the number was near to the 20000 tonne level. Not sure of the source of information regarding coal tonnage, could anyone who attended the PRC open day about a week prior to the mine explosion ask or hear the question of coal stock?

Monkey Poms

I was told there was 30000 tonne at the time of the meeting, and saw it for myself. I did read somewere that Solid Energy had purchased some of it?

[pietrade]

Given Bathurst's recent understanding with Westport Harbour to ship up to 2million tons of coking coal per annum, can anyone tell me why the Pike management never managed to get that sort of a straight-forward deal ? Especially when one considers the earlier plans (which included barging coal from Greymouth to New plymouth for Panax loading) before settling on railing the coal across the country to Lyttleton.!!!? Am I missing something here ?

[iceman]

Given Bathurst's recent understanding with Westport Harbour to ship up to 2million tons of coking coal per annum, can anyone tell me why the Pike management never managed to get that sort of a straight-forward deal ? Especially when one considers the earlier plans (which included barging coal from Greymouth to New plymouth for Panax loading) before settling on railing the coal across the country to Lyttleton.!!!? Am I missing something here ?

Westport is a notorious port with a terrible bar the ships have to cross, so a very unreliable choice for large and frequent volumes of coal shipments. I would say that would have played a significant part in PRC's sensible decision to ship out of Lyttelton.

[Monkey Poms]

I was told there was 30000 tonne at the time of the meeting, and saw it for myself. I did read somewere that Solid Energy had purchased some of it?

This matter could be a clerical error by the receiver or the whole pile of coal was sold as a job
lot of 5,000 tonnes. ( or come on, you guys, which one of you lot has nicked 25,000 tonnes of
prime coking coal & sold it when the spot price was 300 dollars a tonne)?

Monkey Poms

[Monkey Poms]

Given Bathurst's recent understanding with Westport Harbour to ship up to 2million tons of coking coal per annum, can anyone tell me why the Pike management never managed to get that sort of a straight-forward deal ? Especially when one considers the earlier plans (which included barging coal from Greymouth to New plymouth for Panax loading) before settling on railing the coal across the country to Lyttleton.!!!? Am I missing something here ?

In the long term Bathurst's deal with Westport harbour will be unsatisfactory.
Shipping to the coal markets is very expensive on the type of vessels which
can enter Westport, max 8 - 10,000 tonners. In the end someone's got to pay.
Pike had a good deal through the port of Lyttleton. Bathurst would cherish
having the same deal.

With Solid Energy's tonnage & possibly Pike's, Lyttleton would be fully booked.
If we don't get the prospect of Pike being an open-cast mine, you can bet your
bottom dollar Bathurst will be in there.

It would take a long time to organise the start-up of open-cast mining & to raise the funds.
The Energy minister has got to make his mind up now - Yes or no?

Monkey Poms

[Xerof]

This matter could be a clerical error by the receiver

Or Solid Energy took it in lieu of the amount they are holding as an unsecured creditor.

possession is 9/10's of the law?

The Receiver's really need to tidy this matter up with a stament of the facts. There is too much misinformation flying about regarding this. I too remember reading that SE had 'disposed of' a pile of coal shortly after the first explosion

[Mr Tommy]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4685561/Robot-ready-to-re-enter-Pike-River-mine


A robot may be able to enter the Pike River mine this week, a mines rescue manager says.

New Zealand Mines Rescue manager Trevor Watts told The Press yesterday that staff had completed a small sealing operation at the mine's portal on Friday.

The sealing operation would allow a robot – on loan from Western Australia – into the mine to film roadways and provide information about the tunnel's condition, he said.

However, while the robot may be able to enter the West Coast mine this week, it could be months before anyone was able to go in, he said.

The robot was the same one sent into the mine after the second explosion last November, Watts said.

Twenty-nine workers died in the mine.

Two army robots are still in the mine. One broke down a few hundred metres from the entrance, while the other was believed to have been destroyed in one of the blasts.

Bernie Monk, whose son Michael perished in the mine, said yesterday he and the legal team acting for the workers' families hoped to visit the mine today.

Some of the families were struggling "more than ever" with the situation, he said.

Many families felt things were "never going to finish", Monk said.

"We won't rest until we have the bodies back."

[Mark Martin]

This matter could be a clerical error by the receiver or the whole pile of coal was sold as a job
lot of 5,000 tonnes. ( or come on, you guys, which one of you lot has nicked 25,000 tonnes of
prime coking coal & sold it when the spot price was 300 dollars a tonne)?

Monkey Poms

A guy was spotted in Ikamatua with a wheel barrow and over heard talking about a new Island he had just purchased, the locals thought he was talking BS, maybe there was something in it afterall?

[Monkey Poms]

Hi Mouse I left a Sumner motel about 10 am today, then called in for a coffee with some friends in Rangiora about 15 - 20 kms from Christchurch. Experienced the earthquake, it was horrendous. During the earthquake I watched a terracotta pot about one metre high try to walk out of the room.
I believe you live in the Lyttelton area, did your house survive, how about the houses perched on a cliff above Sumner. (good luck)

Our thoughts are with all the people of Christchurch and surrounding areas at this terrible time.
Also the many tourists visiting Christchurch.
Monkey Poms

[fabs]

So at the 29th. of Nov. 2010 the stockpile was 5000 tonnes of coal according to today's nzo statement.
So how on earth where they to get to 12 times that much by the end of 2010 or beginning of Jan 2011.
That according to PETER was a realistic target, unlike GORDENs consist ant overstated estimates?

[Monkey Poms]

NZOG announced months before its financial year's end that they are not going to pay
a dividend. Wishful thinking - hope they are formulating some sort of plan to use the funds
for their share of a new share issue to resurrect Pike attempt to opencast the mine.

I hope NZOG attempt to find oil in Romania goes well.
During the war British and American bombers destroyed Hitler's oil supply by bombing
Romanian oil Fields and refineries beyond repair.
I would think there would be a good chance New Zealand pilots and navigators would
have played some part in the operation, whenever the British have a war to take
out dictators New Zealanders and the Aussies join in.
Maybe NZOG have some inside information into the whereabouts of the Romanian oil?

Monkey Poms

[Paint it Black]

I really hope John Key and Gerry Brownlie are going to take the bull by the horns and start realising the billions of dollars sitting there. The countries economy is now extremely fragile and we cannot afford to wait for Royal Commissions and the next election to get this mine rolling in a big way. I'm sure the families of the victims would applaud this approach to get more employment into Westland and would also welcome Cantabrians coming over for the good wages on offer to help them recover in ChCh. If the conservationists kick up a fuss then call an immediate election - I'm sure National would sweep in on a landslide. We can't afford to stuff around on this.