PRC Pike River Coal

[fabs]

minimoke
In cases like that, it pays to read and research what is after all only a 50 page read, documented with all the sources, rising definitely some disturbing aspects.
Rather than attack the messenger, I would welcome to see an equally documented rebuttal of the message

[fabs]

Re: paranoia about mental case views.
After watching the spectacle last week of the very public humiliation of the leader of a 300 mil people Nation, none other than Obama getting instructions from the head Honcho of a tiny 7 mil. population nation A certain Mr. B Nathanyahou Obama sat there like a scolded schoolboy.
I start to wonder who is running what in this world of ours.
Incidentally the same happened to G. BUSH a few years back.

[minimoke]

minimoke
In cases like that, it pays to read and research what is after all only a 50 page read, documented with all the sources, rising definitely some disturbing aspects.
Rather than attack the messenger, I would welcome to see an equally documented rebuttal of the message

With a title like "murder of Miners" (or whatever it was) I'd expect the first part of the read to be an introduction to the author so we could, from the outset determine if the author is some sort of authority or expert in the subject matter.

Let's put it into context. Its not a book. Its a bloody long blog. Its not hard to replicate information from reliable "sources" (like the local media - no wheres a joke!) and present it as facts. Just because "facts" can be linked together with some sense of logic does not mean those facts are indeed the truth.

I've said earlier in this thread that the Enquiry will find systemic failure. I still stand by that view and doubt very much that some world government / bank will be held in any way responsible.

I'm not attacking the messenger - I just have no reason to believe the message is likely to be credible in its entirety to justify spedning the time reading it. The Standard is an easier read and probably more credible

[minimoke]

Might even see some NZ mining IPO's in the future..eh?
We will. Some of my cash is set aside for Solid Energy. Now theres a conspiracy theory if anyone wants one.

[fabs]

Minimoke:
You really belief, that if by any chance Police ,Government, Judiciary let alone the connected Banks are in anyway implicated we will hear about it, then i can see where you are coming from.
I agree with the use of the very ambiguous term Systemic Failure, which means very little.
You can expect that they will find some fall guy [GUY,S ] and that's how far it will get.
Re: Authors with credentials, you can find equal credited experts on any subject that can diametrically oppose and convincingly prove each other wrong, ending up with you having to make a decision which one is right.

BTW i too posted nearly a year ago that S/E is watching and bidding its time also mentioned after the Tragedy that it may end up a bargain for somebody.
Meanwhile lets wait and see this saga seems to get better by the week.

[Balance]

There are some in this forum with blood on their hands.

They egged on the PRC management who were clearly incompetent, abused those who dared to question that incompetency and even threatened action against those who highlighted how badly the project was being managed.

Only after the death of 29 miners did they went silent - to surface later on and try to cry big crocodile tears.

You know who you are.

[brucey09]

Snrs
Why can not a new fan pull out bad air.?

[janner]

Is it not time to call Pike River a lost cause ??

IF it should enter the sharetrading radar again ..

OK..

Then is the time to cover all the maybe's and probablys..

That is what this site is all about..

MAKING MONEY..

[Casa del Energia]

Snrs
Why can not a new fan pull out bad air.?

becuase as fast as you pull the bad air (CH4) out more methane exudes from the coal. Better to not vent at all - a pure mathane atmosphere will not ignite!

The real answer is to rebuild that main vent and get 100 cu metres min-1 of 21% o2, 75% n2 throught it again.

[brucey09]

Si snr.
I was thinking this es well.

[manxman]

Its a long time since I went down a coal mine, but they are dark and scary places. There are mazes of tunnels and branches, and on many of the branches there are partitions, sometimes with hatches in them. These hatches are hard to open because the air pressure is different on each side. The whole point being that with one main fan, you have to use a lot of partitions and false walls to make sure that all portions of the mine are ventilated 24/7, and the air must be forced to take a complete tour of all the workings.

After the explosions at Pike, we can be reasonably sure that most of this partitioning is history, so that even if the main ventilation was restored, there is no way that complete ventilation of the mine can be assured without re-entering the mine and restoring partitions, sealing off dead spaces and installing auxiliary fans.

The current plan seems to be to build a partition, with airlock, in the main tunnel (using breathing apparatus?) and then exchanging the atmosphere on the entrance side of the partition. This process to be repeated, so that the men building the partitions have only 200 metres maximum to retreat to where there is breathable air. Once you get to the pit bottom (five, ten partitons?) then things become more complicated than the straight tunnel. Sealing off rockfalls which form a reservoir of combustible gas also has to be attended to. I saw a report not long ago that there was carbon monoxide around, which indicates that there may still be heating in parts. It would be vital to avoid force ventilation of hot spots or the mine could take fire again (or worse).

All this in the wet, dark, steep, hot exhausting conditions. For two years maybe, before the old workings are fully explored and ventilated. You have a main fan in the megawatt class which has to be run continuously, and everything has to be paid for. No simple answers.

[Monkey Poms]

Hi Manxman. Good post - your technical description of the situation first class.
How would you rate a plan B to enter the mine from the surface?.

Monkey Poms.

[tony64peter]

Sitting at Woodbourne are plenty of jet engines on wheels[skyhawks] owned by the govt and destined for the scrap yards. Truck one or two to Pike River and position at the mine entrance tying one down with exhaust sealed to entrance. Run at above idle speed and inject raw fuel into exhaust like an after burner to burn the residual oxygen.Pressurise the mine. Then drill a vent hole immediately above the highest part of the mine to remove the methane. When methane down to low levels, plug the mine for a week and daily test for an increase in combustion marker gases. Repeat until combustion no longer detected. Then with the jet engine remove added exhaust fuel and slowly allow ambient air to mix with the exhaust to reoxygenate the mine and the continual airflow will hold the methane below the explosive levels.

The A4s are now worthless and the only costs; fuel$1000/day,2 airforce operators and drill team.This could have happened 6 months ago.

Any faults with this plan?

[Mr Tommy]

The A4s are now worthless and the only costs; fuel$1000/day,2 airforce operators and drill team.This could have happened 6 months ago.

Any faults with this plan?

From the RNZAF website last month:
In early April the Government announced it is taking New Zealand’s mothballed Skyhawk aircraft fleet off the market, with many of the retired airframes set to be permanently loaned to aviation museums across New Zealand.

So theres a problem, they are only loaning them out, they might need them back one day. So they wont want you thrashing one at Pike.

[tony64peter]

From the RNZAF website last month:
In early April the Government announced it is taking New Zealand’s mothballed Skyhawk aircraft fleet off the market, with many of the retired airframes set to be permanently loaned to aviation museums across New Zealand.

So theres a problem, they are only loaning them out, they might need them back one day. So they wont want you thrashing one at Pike.
The only reason they are loaning them is because they can't sell them. They were fitted with F16 radars that were classified and required US approval for sale. The US stone walled due our anti nuclear stance, then a recession, heaps of old fighters out there awaiting sale.

[Casa del Energia]

The only reason they are loaning them is because they can't sell them. They were fitted with F16 radars that were classified and required US approval for sale. The US stone walled due our anti nuclear stance, then a recession, heaps of old fighters out there awaiting sale.

None of the skyhawk variant engines had an afterburner. (J-65, F404 or J52 engines).
It wont work.

[Casa del Energia]

None of the skyhawk variant engines had an afterburner. (J-65, F404 or J52 engines).
It wont work.

Oops - sorry tony64 - I meant to reply to Mt T .

Mt T - I thought you knew your gas turbine engines better than that. Shame on you.

[Mr Tommy]

No Casa de Whatsit
wasnt me who suggested sticking a Skyhawk down the Pike tunnel. They are best off in a museum.

[Casa del Energia]

No Casa de Whatsit
wasnt me who suggested sticking a Skyhawk down the Pike tunnel. They are best off in a museum.

Ok, all right Mr Tummy - sorry my goof up.

[777]

TV 1 now Sunday program

[digger]

TV 1 now Sunday program

Just finished watching it. Seems the underlying problem started in 1982 when safety inspection was taken away from the miners and given to inspectors of which there was only two in the SI. Proir to 1982 we had the AUS system.The AUS miners safety lived and breathed in the mine with the men on a regular basis. Here our safety man from OSH would come every now and then and i do believe the mine was just passed safety several weeks prior to the explosion.The program did interview a AUS safety manager and he clearly said that he had the power to close a mine when it was not safe and he would have closed PIKE if it was under his control.
Soon after the explosion i was appaled to discover that our systen was the way it was.Best results always come from experienced men who have had long years at the coal face,not from some half wit safely in an office somewhere else in the country.Seems to me the managment was working under the existing rules that were not in themselves safe.
The program also dealt with the opened safety box that some dead miner must have open. I say dead as the commision has already stated that all 29 men died after the first explosion. This reminds me of the Eribus Tradgy where Judge Mahon finished by saying it was all a litany of lies.

[Wiremu]

Digger,

You have to wonder what was motivating this programme just weeks before the Royal Commission gets underway, with its "experts" making pronouncements without the benefit of the facts.

It seemed to me that in part this was another example of an Australian union trying to re-instate union control in NZ, and one of the union people so critical of PRC is the same person who was at the forefront of the recent actors union fiasco, trying to do exactly the same thing.

Forgetting about the politics of this, it has been well proven in the aviation industry that inspectors do nothing to add to safety, and in fact can be counter productive because it puts the emphasis in the wrong place. I have some knowledge of the aviation industry, as compared to the coal mining industry, and when addressing the NZ aviation regulatory system the Swedavia-McGregor Report pointed out "there is no direct link between the regulatory power (inspectors) and flight safety performance". Their recommendations were largely accepted moving NZ into a modern safety system framework.

In relation to your comment about best results from experienced men the PRC CEO has over 25 years experience in the Australian coal mining industry, and the mine manager was an ex-inspector of mines in Queensland. Presumably others had similar experience. If Mr Satler had expressed concerns about the safety of the PRC mine, as he stated on the programme, they will be on record and will be part of the Royal Commission's review. It will be good to see the Royal Commission process underway, and the facts evaluated in a sound and rigorous manner to arrive at a considered conclusion.

[Mr Tommy]

Heres the link to the sunday program.

http://tvnz.co.nz/sunday/s2011-e15-video-4220211

[Mr Tommy]

Going back to this story in early may:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/4953050/Pike-River-mine-sale-to-be-resolved-by-August

The deadline for expressions of interest was Thursday 5 May.

Fisk said yesterday parties who expressed definite interest in a purchase had to sign confidentiality agreements to move to the next stage of carrying out "due diligence" on the company where they would be given access to a "data room" of information about the company and its business. He expected the first due diligence process would take about four weeks. From that the interested parties would prepare indicative bids which are not binding.


So the 4 weeks is well gone, I wonder what the bids are looking like. The plan is to have the sale sorted by early August. Would be nice to get a progress report.

[Monkey Poms]

The year was 1983, we were driving past an old closed down mine, once worked by the National Coal Board, and kept on
a care and maintenance basis by a small group of NCB miners.
My mate, travelling with me, requested that we pay a visit to the mine to have a chat with his brother who
was employed as the pit-winder man, operating the lift cage for the maintenance crew.
A few minutes into the conversation and we were offered the chance to view the pit bottom ( unauthorised ).

As we entered the lift cage, I noticed a gleam in the winder operator's eyes. The sort of look that says "brother,
I'm going to scare the ...t out of the both of you." As soon as the cage door was closed the winder took the
brake off, allowing an immediate free-fall. The rush of wind made our hair stand up, giving the impression we'd been
electrocuted.

At a depth of around 800ft the winder applied the brake. We thought that the steel cable holding the cage had turned
into elastic ( think bungy jumping ), as the wire stretched down to a point. The cable then sprung the cage back up,
the G-force being so great that our legs couldn't hold our bodyweight and we ended up on the floor. Eventually, the
lift cage was allowed to descend to the pit bottom, at around 1300ft below the surface.

The whole experience happened in complete darkness.
Mines can be very scary places. ( especially if your mate's got an idiot brother who is a winding operator ).
Certainly scared the hell out of me!

Monkey Poms

[tony64peter]

Given that there are around twenty A4s at Woodbourne and only 4 aviation museums do you not think that there may be a few extras available. Whats a better idea for reducing the toxic environs of the mine?
From the RNZAF website last month:
In early April the Government announced it is taking New Zealand’s mothballed Skyhawk aircraft fleet off the market, with many of the retired airframes set to be permanently loaned to aviation museums across New Zealand.

So theres a problem, they are only loaning them out, they might need them back one day. So they wont want you thrashing one at Pike.

[tony64peter]

Kiwi know how required. During the six day war the Israel's welded 44gal drums to the back of A4s to counter the sams surely someone in NZ could could put an igniter and spray nozzle into the back of one of these. Whats a better idea for removing the gases?


[Cas del Energia;348057]None of the skyhawk variant engines had an afterburner. (J-65, F404 or J52 engines).
It wont work.[/QUOTE]

[Mr Tommy]

Pity this story doesnt elaborate into why it would be illegal.


John Key has told an Australian newspaper the Pike River Mine "would be illegal" if it were constructed in Australia and acknowledged there are deficiencies in New Zealand's mining safety regulations.

A Royal Commission inquiry is to investigate the Pike River accident, where 29 men lost their lives in a series of blasts, the first on November 19. Mr Key told The Australian the Government could not give a full response to allegations New Zealand mines lack equipment and procedures compulsory in Australian mines, but said "we do have to ask the question" about safety standards.

He told the paper the Pike River mine, which was a single-entry uphill mine, "couldn't have been constructed in Australia" as it would have been "illegal".

"There will be changes in New Zealand," he said.

This conflicts with comments made by the Prime Minister following the disaster, when he said New Zealand's safety standards were equal to those of Australia.

Mr Key's comments angered the mother of one of two Australians who died in the disaster.

"Why didn't it come out 12 months ago or two years ago when Pike first opened? They would have kept getting away with it but for this tragedy," Josh Ufer's mother Joanne told The Australian.

"If anything at all comes out of this, it should be a change in the safety standards."

Meanwhile the Government has given a hint that it may step in to make a condition that any sale of the Pike River Mine could be dependent on the 29 bodies being recovered.

The Australian coal miners' union is insisting on a guarantee that the bodies are recovered before the mine's sold.

John Key understood their concern but said the mine obviously has to be safe for that to happen.

But he said there are options for the Government to consider.

"It may require a transfer of licence and under the Crown Minerals Act that may give the Government some ability to alter that or put some conditions on that," he said.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10733536

[digger]

Yes Mr tommy i read that story too. Rather strange i thought that Mr Keys would make that comment with the Royal commission just getting underway. But his comment do confirm what i always beieved and have said several times----that the PIKE managment simply focused on the safety relegations requirements and not on what was truely safe. I have said it all before so no point in going over it again.

[troyvdh]

...A bit out of left field......

...If I had a assest worth say....3-4-5 billion.....

....I would like to think that to ensure that I could actually achieve same ....I would endeavour to spend virtually any amount to at least 1 billion to ensure the sureity of same.....again I acknowledge that this is out of left field....

...in addition...should this asset be at risk from any danger (and obviously safety of workers)....many efforts would be underaken to minimize same...

...so ..(and i apologise if these issues have been discussed previously)....why was only ONE ventilation system in place
.....why was it inside the tunnel....
......why was there not 10-20 ventilation shafts....on "full noise" ....ALL the time given the acknowledged danger of methane gas present within....

Again I apologise if these issues have been discussed previously.


...PS...does anyone know how much was spent on ventilating the shaft,,,,,cheers...

[digger]

...A bit out of left field......

...If I had a assest worth say....3-4-5 billion.....

....I would like to think that to ensure that I could actually achieve same ....I would endeavour to spend virtually any amount to at least 1 billion to ensure the sureity of same.....again I acknowledge that this is out of left field....

...in addition...should this asset be at risk from any danger (and obviously safety of workers)....many efforts would be underaken to minimize same...

...so ..(and i apologise if these issues have been discussed previously)....why was only ONE ventilation system in place
.....why was it inside the tunnel....
......why was there not 10-20 ventilation shafts....on "full noise" ....ALL the time given the acknowledged danger of methane gas present within....

Again I apologise if these issues have been discussed previously.


...PS...does anyone know how much was spent on ventilating the shaft,,,,,cheers...

I had an afternoon lunch with Peter Whitall about three years ago when the tunnel was well underway.I feel and still feel that the contents of our discussion should be made available to the Royal Commission.
I simply wanted small holes drilled every 300 metres and at that point got cut off by PW as he simply said it was impossible as getting even one took years and no more were allowed.I got the picture that the greenies were running the show and nothing could be done without there say so. Hence there was no further discussion about small hole drilled every 300 metres and i did not get to say what my plan was.My plan would have almost certainly have saved the tragedy we are now in.
Some of you my know my home for the last three years is not set up to the national grid but we generate our own power with solar on a solar tracker,wind and a back up diesel generator. So i am familiar with self power and its potential.
What i wanted was holes drilled every 300 metres with self power blowing a venture fan across which would create a vacumn and extract the gasses from the mine. Note my way is pulling gasses up hill when in fact the gasses want to go uphill by themselves. The way the greenies forced us was to blow the gasses downhill against the natural direction. This downhill blowing attempt allowed gasses to get bypassed in side tunnels and build up to explosive levels. My system would have been natural and the best fans working at the highest place.
Too bad the greenies just would not allow more than one hole to be drilled.
So Troyvdth with that you have your answer as to many of the questions you raised. The system was set up to please the greenies not for safety beyond what the safety rules were.

[the machine]

without the greenies support then Helen's tenure would have been cut short.

[still does not change the fact that 29 people died]

m

[Jay]

Interesting Digger and makes sense to a layman like myself

perhaps you should let the Royal commision know!

[Mr Tommy]

Todays story on Stuff gives the reason why PIke would have been 'illegal' in Oz:

Key yesterday told The Australian newspaper the single entry point mine at Pike River "couldn't have been constructed in Australia" because without an alternative exit it would have been illegal.

But I bet theres things we dont allow in NZ that are permitted in Oz. Like cops carrying guns, or building a house under a forest of gum trees.
And what about Saudi, its 'illegal' for women to drive there ! Yet we allow it here. ( yes I am joking )

[minimoke]

I got the picture that the greenies were running the show and nothing could be done without there say so.
There is little doubt the Greenies helped write the rules of the game called "Mining on Crown Land in Sensitive Conservation areas". These rules weren't as onerous compared with attempting to mine in a national park like the neighbouring Paparoa Park.

It was up to PRC to know the rules and play by them. Like most rules there were probably a few opportunities to infringe in the hope the Ref didn't spot it. Like, for example PRC's proposal (which was accepted) included the drilling of 4 x 1.5m escape passages and an awareness of the potential subsidence around those passages and potential cave in of the coal seam roof. Where are those escape passages?

Some will say the Greens wouldn't allow access roads to be built. The facts are that there were only two known Whio (ducks) which didn't constitute a breeding pair so the impact of access routes on the flora and fauna was minimal. What is probably the true story is that the cost of puttigngin those access routes was deemed uneconomic.

The threat to the environment was pretty minimal - which is why PRC only had to stump up with $1.7m for conservation projects. The Greens are an easy target to lay the blame. I'll wager blame will be apportioned to mine management and commercial pressure from shareholders to focus on an economic imperative

[winner69]

. I'll wager blame will be apportioned to mine management and commercial pressure from shareholders to focus on an economic imperative

Tut tut minimoke .... statements like this not allowed on this thread

[digger]

I'll wager blame will be apportioned to mine management and commercial pressure from shareholders to focus on an economic imperative

That is irrelevant as shareholders are expected to focus on the economic imperative.That does not in any way allow or dismiss safety requirements.The company has to show that it worked inside those requirements. Later on the assessment of those safety standerds comes into play.I believe the standards were simply inadaquate.
It is a bit like 6 months ago when i was running late and my wife put an appointment imperative on my driving speed. The fact that i exceeded the limit under those circumstances and as hard pressed as i was the ticket was still issued and i had to pay.I was also told if i did not agree with the driving speeds as indicated i should take the matter up with the appropate authorty. The rules are the rules until they are changed and i can not see how am any imperative can come into it.

[Balance]

Why does this not surprise those of us who have been critical of PRC's management right through 2009 and 2010?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/5180974/Contractors-release-disturbing-Pike-River-information

More blood on the hands of those in this forum who shouted down anyone who dared to criticize and take to task PRC's long saga of incompetence right through the mine development process.

You know who you are.

[minimoke]

That is irrelevant as shareholders are expected to focus on the economic imperative.That does not in any way allow or dismiss safety requirements.
The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. However safety doesn't come cheap and in mines more so.


The company has to show that it worked inside those requirements. Later on the assessment of those safety standerds comes into play.I believe the standards were simply inadaquate. But there are very few actual "requirements" . Its up to management to manage the risk. If there is pressure from the Board then the Board needs to look at itself and face the consequences. PRC board probably feel relativly comfortable as NZ's OSH are a pretty weak bunch - I'm struggling to recall how many Directors have ever been prosecuted. IcePak gas explosion comes to mind and that was a $30,000 fine for killing one person and injuring 7.

It is a bit like 6 months ago when i was running late and my wife put an appointment imperative on my driving speed. The fact that i exceeded the limit under those circumstances and as hard pressed as i was the ticket was still issued and i had to pay.I was also told if i did not agree with the driving speeds as indicated i should take the matter up with the appropate authorty. .

Thats called managing risk. You're saying that you knew what you were about to do was wrong yet you still went on and did it. You were under pressure from a higher authority and you probably weighed the consequences of non-compliance against the consequences of succumbing. There might have bees some thought that the end justified the means. Sometimes you can get away with speeding, sometimes you can't. On that day you didn't. Do the crime, do the time.

The rules are the rules until they are changed and i can not see how am any imperative can come into it
The mining rules are few and are not prescriptive. Miners are allowed to look at cost when implementing those rules.

[dsurf]

Why does this not surprise those of us who have been critical of PRC's management right through 2009 and 2010?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/5180974/Contractors-release-disturbing-Pike-River-information

More blood on the hands of those in this forum who shouted down anyone who dared to criticize and take to task PRC's long saga of incompetence right through the mine development process.

You know who you are.

With your exceptional foresight, clear thinking, rational viewpoints, righteous indignation and desire to punish non-believers, I believe a career as strategist / speech writer for the Destiny Church is most likely your destiny

[Balance]

With your exceptional foresight, clear thinking, rational viewpoints, righteous indignation and desire to punish non-believers, I believe a career as strategist / speech writer for the Destiny Church is most likely your destiny

Nothing wrong with the Destiny Church - no one has died as a consequence of believing in the church.

But 29 miners have died due to the believers of PRC here.

[LIO]

Nothing wrong with the Destiny Church - no one has died as a consequence of believing in the church.

But 29 miners have died due to the believers of PRC here.

What utter nonsense you write Balance. You insult the shareholders of PRC. You suggest we don't care that people have lost their lives.
Naive we may have been, but we didn't realise that government regulation of the mining industry had been progressively reduced. If you want to blame someone, then point the finger at those at the top over recent years. They may be happy to blame the company/shareholders/workers/greenies, but their final tightening of safety standards will be an admission in itself.

[minimoke]

Naive we may have been, but we didn't realise that government regulation of the mining industry had been progressively reduced.
While govt regulation may have reduced this does not mean regulation itself reduced. Changes were made to safety on the basis that govt would remove itself from operational decisions within private companies and leave those companies to self regulate with broad guidance set by govt. Would you sooner we had a govt that set regulations for every aspect of a companies operations? Before you start asking for more government involvement wait for the Inquiry results - I think you'll find both the Police and OSH will be up for some criticism.

[Balance]

What utter nonsense you write Balance. You insult the shareholders of PRC. You suggest we don't care that people have lost their lives.
Naive we may have been, but we didn't realise that government regulation of the mining industry had been progressively reduced. If you want to blame someone, then point the finger at those at the top over recent years. They may be happy to blame the company/shareholders/workers/greenies, but their final tightening of safety standards will be an admission in itself.

Of course I insult some of the shareholders of PRC. Specifically those who, at every turn, attempted to shut or shout down anyone who dared to criticize or question the competence of the directors and management of PRC.

Then, Dsurf has the cheek to bring up Destiny Church.

Well, the believers in Destiny Church may be naive but they never caused or contributed to a single death.

The die-hard one-eyed believers of PRC actively and unashamedly supported the incompetence of PRC management - directly related to the death of 29 miners.

I remember well one poster here writing after a meeting with PRC management - "I have been assured there will be no more capital raising." Guess what happened next?

[digger]

While govt regulation may have reduced this does not mean regulation itself reduced. Changes were made to safety on the basis that govt would remove itself from operational decisions within private companies and leave those companies to self regulate with broad guidance set by govt. Would you sooner we had a govt that set regulations for every aspect of a companies operations? Before you start asking for more government involvement wait for the Inquiry results - I think you'll find both the Police and OSH will be up for some criticism.

The police and OSH have certainly worked hard to earn their criticism but that gets away from the main problem of what happened to the safety culture. It eroded away when some nit wit in an office somewhere who knew his head would never be on the block took that safety away from the workers and management and gave it into the hands of a mine safety officer.The belief that safety was assured just because the rules were followed does not make the mine safe.

[brucey09]

Snrs.
In memory I thinking NZ oil started with Snr. Ward - he had which experience. Then Snr. Whitle comes from Australia ? Good company managing ? As kiwis say Yea right - yes?

[minimoke]

The police and OSH have certainly worked hard to earn their criticism but that gets away from the main problem of what happened to the safety culture. It eroded away when some nit wit in an office somewhere who knew his head would never be on the block took that safety away from the workers and management and gave it into the hands of a mine safety officer.The belief that safety was assured just because the rules were followed does not make the mine safe.
If you are referring to Neville Rockhouse who was the Mine Safety Officer I think you are being a bit harsh. He was also the Training Manager which means he has two barrels pointing towards him. But he is only as good as his Managers and they are only as good as their Board who are decided by the shareholders. PRC safety was in the hands on the workers - they tell us now they weren't happy but their silence during their employment may yet haunt them. The safety was in the hands of the management - and we only have to look at the length of time their emergency response took to kick in to get a sense of their abilities on that front.

[whirly]

Not to mention that Neville's own sons were working down there and he would not have put their lives at risk knowingly. I really feel for him as I think he's going to be the fall guy.

[Bixbite]

Nothing wrong with the Destiny Church - no one has died as a consequence of believing in the church.

But 29 miners have died due to the believers of PRC here.

Hello the Moderator,

Someone stated that the 29 miners had died due to the believers of PRC here. It would be good to surrender these believers of PRC to the police (or judicial) department; to give them up to justice.

Regards
Bixbite

[neopoleII]

just been reading back...... ie from page one of this thread, on page 6 is an interesting article.
a chap by the name of murray cave was concerned about an "outburst" but the chairman belittled cave's advice publicly.


Cave said some of the geological risks included:

A 2km-plus drive through hard rock "which is already proving to be slower going than anticipated".

The presence of an active fault that needed to be crossed underground, presenting a zone of considerable and sustained ground stresses.

A pit bottom with deep highly gassy coals and the associated risk of "outburst". Gas pressure-forced explosive events at the coal face.

A degree of uncertainty about the difficulties in accessing the resource because of the geological structure, plus the risk of environmental damage from subsidence and "acid mine drainage".

These risks did not necessarily mean the mine would not be a success, he said.

From 2000-04 Cave was an adviser on the Pike River mine to land owner the Department of Conservation as part of resource consent and access issues.

PRC chairman John Dow said as a trained geologist he disagreed with some of Cave's assumptions, notably that there was an active fault through the mine. The fault was not active, and in very old rock, he said.

Dow said Pike River was a different proposition from some of Solid Energy's mines on the West Coast. It was shallower and without some of the other potential problems like "outburst" that Cave had presented.

[LIO]

Hi, I just flicked back to page 6 too. The whole page makes interesting reading.

The company had not only their workers but their whole mine to lose. Why would they be knowingly slack ?

I don't believe anyone intentionally and callously disregarded the lives of others.

A pity the blame game cannot stop, with the effort and energy directed instead to learning from mistakes and preventing a repeat of this tragedy.

[iceman]

Like you Whirly, I really feel for Neville and the huge amount of pressure all this SPECULATION will be putting on him. I am sad to see all this untimely media speculation and the blame being thrown around, including on here. I think we would all be better served by waiting for a thorough and hopefully conclusive Royal Commission to complete their task.
There is no question in my mind that environmental rules here in NZ, often completely useless, have in recent years been placed above workers safety. I work in a primary industry where I have witnessed this directly, where people have been put at risk by measures to protect a few common birds.
I hope this will be one of the issues raised by the Royal Commission and hope it will lead to a more realistic and balanced approach to enviroronmental sustainability (not blanket protection), which I wholheartedly support if done reasonably.


Not to mention that Neville's own sons were working down there and he would not have put their lives at risk knowingly. I really feel for him as I think he's going to be the fall guy.

[Monkey Poms]

Why does this not surprise those of us who have been critical of PRC's management right through 2009 and 2010?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/5180974/Contractors-release-disturbing-Pike-River-information

More blood on the hands of those in this forum who shouted down anyone who dared to criticize and take to task PRC's long saga of incompetence right through the mine development process.

You know who you are.

Balance you may want to use this in your psychology, unfortunately I could not find a poster pointing with more than one finger.

[dsurf]

Hello the Moderator,

Someone stated that the 29 miners had died due to the believers of PRC here. It would be good to surrender these believers of PRC to the police (or judicial) department; to give them up to justice.

Regards
Bixbite

Whew - lucky I only ever held options. Does that make me a "potential believer"

[Balance]

Whew - lucky I only ever held options. Does that make me a "potential believer"

Absolutely.

Brian Tamaki says to thank you for the publicity. He invites you to join his flock so you may be forgiven your grave sins.

http://www.destinychurch.org.nz/

BTW - you are hereby granted a special exemption from having to buy the ring. Blood on the hands is good enough.

[Hoop]

The ACC was a believer 4th biggest shareholder with 4.9%* ( 19,753,312 shares) lets banish them.;)

* http://www.pike.co.nz/top_10_shareholders.php 2 July 2010 data

[Monkey Poms]

[QUOTE=minimoke;.

It was up to PRC to know the rules and play by them. Like most rules there were probably a few opportunities to infringe in the hope the Ref didn't spot it. Like, for example PRC's proposal (which was accepted) included the drilling of 4 x 1.5m escape passages and an awareness of the potential subsidence around those passages and potential cave in of the coal seam roof. Where are those escape passages?

Some will say the Greens wouldn't allow access roads to be built. The facts are that there were only two known Whio (ducks) which didn't constitute a breeding pair so the impact of access routes on the flora and fauna was minimal. What is probably the true story is that the cost of puttigngin those access routes was deemed uneconomic.
The threat to the environment was pretty minimal [/QUOTE]

Where will I find the information regarding the proposed drilling of the 4x1.5m diameter boreholes
from the top of the mine? It would take a big rig to drill that diameter borehole, with the access
roads and track in position to accommodate the movement and positioning of the rig.

During a past visit to the mine, I asked the question - why not build a track up to the top of the mine,
rather than use an expensive helicopter to move men and equipment, including concrete ( not exactly
rocket science ). Gordon Ward and Peter Whittal both agreed it would be in the best interest to do so.
The only problem - the DoC. If management had had a rush of blood and ignored the fact that the mine
had no consent from the DoC to put a track in, but went ahead and constructed one anyway, I'm sure
the DoC would have noticed.

The cost of putting in the access track? You probably would have change from the price that it has cost for
hiring the helicopters. NZ$ 800,000 - the cost of the helicopter hired by the police during the attempted
rescue operation.

Monkey Poms

[minimoke]

Where will I find the information regarding the proposed drilling of the 4x1.5m diameter boreholes
from the top of the mine?
On 12 March 2004 Chris Carter, hte then Minister of Conservation anno9unced the conditional approval of teh mine with a particualr focu on access. Hers part of what he said.
"4) The impact on Paparoa National Park

The Pike proposal does not include large scale mining under Paparoa National Park but it does involve the drilling of four 1.5m holes within the park boundaries to act as emergency escape passages for miners. Some subsidence is also expected along the edge of park boundary.

"The advice to me is that the impacts on the National Park are likely to be minimal. Only 150mm of subsidence is expected along the park boundary, a figure an independent expert has advised I can have reasonable confidence in," Mr Carter said.

"The National Parks Act is subject to the Crown Minerals Act, which allows surface disturbance from mining operations of no more than 100 square metres within national parks, and the four exit holes in the Pike proposal fall within that area."

PRC proposed drilling the holes so I presume (which is dangerous I know) that they must have known the terrain, likely issues and and rough costs associated
with such a proposal.

[digger]

On 12 March 2004 Chris Carter, hte then Minister of Conservation anno9unced the conditional approval of teh mine with a particualr focu on access. Hers part of what he said.
"4) The impact on Paparoa National Park

The Pike proposal does not include large scale mining under Paparoa National Park but it does involve the drilling of four 1.5m holes within the park boundaries to act as emergency escape passages for miners. Some subsidence is also expected along the edge of park boundary.

"The advice to me is that the impacts on the National Park are likely to be minimal. Only 150mm of subsidence is expected along the park boundary, a figure an independent expert has advised I can have reasonable confidence in," Mr Carter said.

"The National Parks Act is subject to the Crown Minerals Act, which allows surface disturbance from mining operations of no more than 100 square metres within national parks, and the four exit holes in the Pike proposal fall within that area."

PRC proposed drilling the holes so I presume (which is dangerous I know) that they must have known the terrain, likely issues and and rough costs associated
with such a proposal.

This is easy and straight forward. You give with one hand and take with the other to then claim you are doing something.
There is simply no way you can drill four boreholes of that size and then montor them without any track access.Imagine the constant helicoper work that would take and in that terain would not be long before a helicoper crash and deaths had to be faced.If doc was at all interested in the four escape tunnels every being built it would have got out of the road and allowed them to be constructed. The green force said no. Also note after the 29 deaths how within days it was then alright to build a track to get a montoring hole completed. At that point the greens went silence and then the company could go forward and do what should have been obvious ffrom the start.

[minimoke]

Imagine the constant helicoper work that would take and in that terain would not be long before a helicoper crash and deaths had to be faced. If the logging industry on the coast could do it why couldn't Pike? I don't recall Timberlans ever loosing anyone.

If Pike originally saw the need for four escape passages on the National Park boundary where are those passages now?

[brucey09]

Snr. Mini
I think the shafts were as when the mine getting longer.

[minimoke]

Snr. Mini
I think the shafts were as when the mine getting longer.
So how long do tunnels have to be before escape shafts are built.

[brucey09]

So how long do tunnels have to be before escape shafts are built.
I think when I visit once it was first escape in ventilation shaft then more later.

[digger]

If the logging industry on the coast could do it why couldn't Pike? I don't recall Timberlans ever loosing anyone.

If Pike originally saw the need for four escape passages on the National Park boundary where are those passages now?

Comparing oranges and apples here.When you cut down a tree you do not after that need to return to that site.A escape passage needs constant monoring so access is essential and without it the passage might as well not exist.Also the tophography around the PIKE site is a lot more dangerous than where trees are normally planted.
Track access is a must for any such passage and i know for a fact that PW was very curtailed that this access was not available to PIKE.

[minimoke]

Track access is a must for any such passage and i know for a fact that PW was very curtailed that this access was not available to PIKE.
I haven't seen the resource consents so so don't know that level of detail. But are you suggesting PRC knew there was no way of creating emergency shafts but continued to put men down a mine anyway?

[Monkey Poms]

I haven't seen the resource consents so so don't know that level of detail. But are you suggesting PRC knew there was no way of creating emergency shafts but continued to put men down a mine anyway?

The 1.5m shafts would be created by reaming out the hole from inside the mine,a more difficult
and dangerous method.
The conditions for the Pike miners must have been horrendous when using
this method to put the first air shaft in place, ( what is the point of making the job simple when
you can make it more difficult for yourself,? thank you D.O.C. it would have been nice to have had
you stand shoulder to shoulder with the miners during this operation )

Monkey Poms

[LIO]

The 1.5m shafts would be created by reaming out the hole from inside the mine,a more difficult
and dangerous method.
The conditions for the Pike miners must have been horrendous when using
this method to put the first air shaft in place, ( what is the point of making the job simple when
you can make it more difficult for yourself,? thank you D.O.C. it would have been nice to have had
you stand shoulder to shoulder with the miners during this operation )

Monkey Poms


Discussion on mine safety in NZ on National Radio this week :

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/focusonpolitics/audio/2492167/focus-on-politics-for-24-june-2011.asx

[brucey09]

is 200 ppm carbon monoxide any like explosive.
CARBON MONOXIDE
PROPERTIES: gas; BP -192 C; MP -207 C; vapor density
(air=1) 0.967; flammable (explosive) limits in air
12.5 to 74.2%

[tony64peter]

Carbon monoxide is relatively inert and not flammable. If it were, flames would appear at the tail pipe of a car when the hot exhuast gas mixed with air. The only danger to man is that the bloods haemoglobin would rather absorb a molecule of carbon monoxide than one of oxygen. Carbon monoxide levels in the mine reflect on going combustion ie if it is increasing then combustion is still occurring. If the O2 level is zero then the ever present methane and coal cannot burn.

[tony64peter]

Mines rescue are installing an air seal 175m into the mine tunnel to replace the seal that exists at the entrance, ie the container. To do this there has to be real confidence that explosive conditions do not exist. This being the case why don't the mines recue with their breathing apparatus walk up to the mine?

[Mr Tommy]

Mines rescue are installing an air seal 175m into the mine tunnel to replace the seal that exists at the entrance, ie the container. To do this there has to be real confidence that explosive conditions do not exist. This being the case why don't the mines recue with their breathing apparatus walk up to the mine?

I think theyre scared of the dark. I read someone walked 300m in on the first day and there was basically no sign of any damage.

[neopoleII]

with no risk of explosions...... they could drive right on in with an electric buggy till they encounter debris and then have a walk about, with a buggy loaded with air tanks there is nothing stopping them having a good look right up to the rockfall except politics.

[digger]

with no risk of explosions...... they could drive right on in with an electric buggy till they encounter debris and then have a walk about, with a buggy loaded with air tanks there is nothing stopping them having a good look right up to the rockfall except politics.

True but they could have done that even better a few hours after the first explosion and brought back the majority of the miners. Maybe Mr tommy is right and they are afraid of the dark. They have certainly been afraid of something.

The biggest loss with this entire affair is that in the future no one will wait to be rescued,as rescuing will never be entirely safe.The shame here is that rescures in the right hands[not some freightend members of the police force] have a far better chance of saving lives than a do it yourself which miners in the future will be forces into.

[Baddarcy]

with no risk of explosions...... they could drive right on in with an electric buggy till they encounter debris and then have a walk about, with a buggy loaded with air tanks there is nothing stopping them having a good look right up to the rockfall except politics.
You are forgetting that there is a driftrunner halfway up the tunnel, blocking it. This was the one the one of the 2 survivors was driving when the mine first exploded.

[Baddarcy]

Mines rescue are installing an air seal 175m into the mine tunnel to replace the seal that exists at the entrance, ie the container. To do this there has to be real confidence that explosive conditions do not exist. This being the case why don't the mines recue with their breathing apparatus walk up to the mine?

You do realise the tunnel is 2.3 km long and up hill ...right? Having personally been in the mine, i can tell you the floor is not flat like a nice footpath either, not that easy to walk on an uneven, wet floor in the dark. You ever tried walking in full breathing gear 4.6km, remembering you have to get back too. Unlikely that you air would last that long i suspect.

[digger]

You do realise the tunnel is 2.3 km long and up hill ...right? Having personally been in the mine, i can tell you the floor is not flat like a nice footpath either, not that easy to walk on an uneven, wet floor in the dark. You ever tried walking in full breathing gear 4.6km, remembering you have to get back too. Unlikely that you air would last that long i suspect.

You do not have to carry enought for 4.6 kls. It would be done in support stages with others supplying whatever equipment to varies drop off stages.. It could get down to only having to carry enought for about 1 klm,which is about what they are doing now.

[tony64peter]

A dive bottle at sea level will easily last 2hours for someone of average fitness and I would imagine that they are using rebreathers less weight and residual O2 is not discharged into the mine. I wonder if its a smoke screen for the media?

[Monkey Poms]

David Salisbury has not had much luck during his tenure as the CEO of NZOG, no luck with the drill,the US$ exchange rate going
the wrong way,NZOG shares on the bottom, and as yet the unexplained, what went wrong tragedy at Pike.

I am sure David is a very intelligent and capable man, I hope that during the remaining period of his notice he will
reconsider NZOG position and stay with Pike.
Pike's top seam of coal is worth over 9 times the value your Government has placed
on its valuation of Solid Energy. ( based on mining the full 60 million tonne by opencast, it is safer)

Monkey Poms

[fabs]

MONKEY POMS
You forgot that so far not so fortuitous investment in PPP.
So he had some bad luck in his yet to end tenure, REALY?
He is the head man of an Oil Exploration Co. that as far as I can see the only expert on West coast Coal mining a Prof. of Mechanical Engineering on the extensive team, holds 30% in a coal mine who after being wrong in predicted estimates for years and approaching bankruptcy, throws more millions into the project.
Luck, good or bad should not come into it when your on $1OOOO.oo Per Week.
If as some have suggested right or wrong , that he was under the control of T/R a very insulting proposition, but if true that would be even more insulting to us S/H by hanging in there, or without doing anything about it.

[Monkey Poms]

You forgot that so far not so fortuitous investment in PPP.


The jury is still out on that one Fabs.
Waiting for the appraisal results to come out on Vietnamese oil discovery from CRD-2X.

Monkey Poms.

[the machine]

You forgot that so far not so fortuitous investment in PPP.


The jury is still out on that one Fabs.
Waiting for the appraisal results to come out on Vietnamese oil discovery from CRD-2X.

Monkey Poms.

ah yes - CRD-2X - sweating on this being commercial as have taken a very substantial position on it. July 12 has an update from permit operator

M

[patrick]

Any thoughts as to how the sale process might be going.
There was a suggestion earlier that the Insurance claim would be sold with the mine.
Is that the case?

[Monkey Poms]

Hi Machine,

Another one of those clever Indians has purchased all of the Indian production of Guar Gum,
then raised the price from £580 per tonne to £2700 in a short period of time ( I'm sweating on this one )
can you Lads grow this in Perth?. The crop is the next thing to having a gold mine.

Monkey Poms

[tony64peter]

Dirty coal since 1998 has cooled the climate.http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/04/us-climate-sulphur-idUSTRE7634IQ20110704 Hope they are right I'll be able to retire.

[Mr Tommy]

Any thoughts as to how the sale process might be going.
There was a suggestion earlier that the Insurance claim would be sold with the mine.
Is that the case?

Wasnt the insurance cover worth up to $100m. How long does it take to settle it? Does seem strange theres been no further mention of it.

[Casa del Energia]

Wasnt the insurance cover worth up to $100m. How long does it take to settle it? Does seem strange theres been no further mention of it.

I would imagine the potential proceeds of any legitimate claim would be booked as an asset visible to bidders doing due diligence.
Which, come to think of it, is as usual invisible to the retail shareholders (remember us? - or are we still just as irrelevant as we always were?).
Considering how tightly held information is - and the status of the insurance is just one of the usual littany of secrets - I think thier talents would have been better used by the CIA rather than digging for coal.
So it is not strange, Mr T, that there is no further mention of it - this is just BAU

[minimoke]

Royal Commission Enquiry opens today.

First up Don Elder CEO of Solid Energy: ""Pike River had done insufficient coal seam and geological investigation work and had insufficient information to proceed with mine design and development that a level of risk consistent with what Solid Energy would consider good industry practice," Elder said."

[digger]

Royal Commission Enquiry opens today.

First up Don Elder CEO of Solid Energy: ""Pike River had done insufficient coal seam and geological investigation work and had insufficient information to proceed with mine design and development that a level of risk consistent with what Solid Energy would consider good industry practice," Elder said."

Now he would say that wouldn't he. The implication is that the mine should be GIVEN to SE and all will be well.

[minimoke]

Now he would say that wouldn't he. The implication is that the mine should be GIVEN to SE and all will be well.
Good point - not an entirely impartial view or one without some self interest. Yet he's been called up as the very first witness.

[Oiler]

Royal Commission Enquiry opens today.

First up Don Elder CEO of Solid Energy: ""Pike River had done insufficient coal seam and geological investigation work and had insufficient information to proceed with mine design and development that a level of risk consistent with what Solid Energy would consider good industry practice," Elder said."

Of course Don Elder is going to bag on Pike, he wants to buy it for nothing. :mad ;:

I hope this is not an indication of the way this Royal Commission is heading.
Why first up ask a competitor to give his view on the state of affairs. Wrong........ he is trying to taint the evidence before it is presented. :confused:

[shasta]

Of course Don Elder is going to bag on Pike, he wants to buy it for nothing. :mad ;:

I hope this is not an indication of the way this Royal Commission is heading.
Why first up ask a competitor to give his view on the state of affairs. Wrong........ he is trying to taint the evidence before it is presented. :confused:

How about a glaring "conflict of interest" as Oiler states, you have a Govt/Crown appointed Royal Commission, & an SOE (& local competitor) being interviewed, talk about nepotism here!

I guess NZO will have the opportunity to say all was well when we had it etc, to maximise the value of Pike River!

[troyvdh]

Oh really

1-one way in,one way out
2-acknowledged high risk of dangerous levels of methane gas
3-ONE (ie 1) ventilation machine IN THE MINE SHAFT.....

am I missing something

[Balance]

You PIkers should be very pleased and happy with Don Elder's testimony! Essentially he is saying :

1. Mining in the West Coast is high risk (nothing new there),

2. PRC had little expertise in mining and cut corners (no surprises here),

3. Solid Energy is the only company in NZ with expertise to mine the coal (to be expected - he is clearly interested in getting his hands on the coal).

Net net - he is confirming that PRC is a very valuable mine which can be mined with the right expertise. Plenty of overseas miners have unrivaled expertise - this is their opportunity to grab US$10 billion worth of coal for bugger all.

All thanks to Don Elder!

[troyvdh]

Balance your input is always appreciated....

From the explosion I am now $43000 worse off......and i frequently reflect on those 29 men who no longer exist....

It would be appreciated if your exposure to this tragedy could be outlined...given that you often have an explaination/rationale

Given your previous posts ..it appears you are indeed free of the complexities re investing in the sharemarket...you indeed are a lucky man....and i hope you are a very wealthy individual.....well done......and keep it up....you are an exception to the rule ...trust me....enjoy .

troy

[Balance]

Balance your input is always appreciated....

From the explosion I am now $43000 worse off......and i frequently reflect on those 29 men who no longer exist....

It would be appreciated if your exposure to this tragedy could be outlined...given that you often have an explaination/rationale

Given your previous posts ..it appears you are indeed free of the complexities re investing in the sharemarket...you indeed are a lucky man....and i hope you are a very wealthy individual.....well done......and keep it up....you are an exception to the rule ...trust me....enjoy .

troy

Troy, I am just trying to put some perspective on the proceedings now going on in the Inquiry.

I have no doubts that Don Elder is trying to talk down the value of the mine but talk up the expertise of Solid Energy. This in itself does not render his testimony invalid or spurious.

You would know that some of us thought (and still think) that NZOG and PRC directors and management were incompetent and not up to the job of developing, managing and operating PRC. It took a disaster and the lives of 29 men (and the grief of many of their families and friends) for many to open up their eyes and to start seriously questioning the directors and managers. You just have to read through this thread to know who they are. Heck, I had one poster threatening to report me to the Securities Commission for down-ramping by using false information!

Now we have Don Elder saying the same thing (in a less direct way but nevertheless, the same message).

But what he is also saying is that the mine is worth billions if mined properly with the right expertise. That is a positive and it's now up to the receivers to make the best of that view.

So it is a positive for the Pikers. It could be that along with the insurance claim, they may yet recover some equity value.

Fair enough?

[Mr Tommy]

Oh really

1-one way in,one way out
2-acknowledged high risk of dangerous levels of methane gas
3-ONE (ie 1) ventilation machine IN THE MINE SHAFT.....

am I missing something

Yes you have point 3 wrong, there were actually 2 ventilation shafts. When the main one collapsed they built a temporary one, heres the info from 2009:

Meanwhile, drilling of a 'slimline' ventilation hole from the surface to pit
bottom has commenced. This hole will then be reamed to 600mm diameter and
fully cased with steel pipe to provide enough additional fresh air to allow
one of the coal cutting machines, a continuous miner, to start producing coal
during April.

[Monkey Poms]

Of course Don Elder is going to bag on Pike, he wants to buy it for nothing. :mad ;:

I hope this is not an indication of the way this Royal Commission is heading.
Why first up ask a competitor to give his view on the state of affairs. Wrong........ he is trying to taint the evidence before it is presented. :confused:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would not worry too much Oiler over Dr Don Elder's view of the situation. Reading from a script
his performance when questioned by Stacy Shortall over his credentials to have an expert view on the matter are questionable.

Oiler take a look, http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/video.cfm?c_id=1&gal_cid=1&gallery_id=120184

Dr Don Elder made no mention of the geological and other information obtained by the in seam drilling of the coal seam,
or forward planning, in which neither management or any member of this site baulked at the considerable costs incurred.

Dr Don Elders took it upon himself to explain to the enquiry that the 20000 tonnes of coal had to be sold at a low price.

My view is a monkey, without any letters before or after his name, could have sold the coal at the market price
if he wanted to do so.
Elder's annual remuneration package is believed to be in the region of $1.3m. His performance at the inquiry
and past statements, in my view, do not represent value for money. The Goverment should check his references.

The need now is to progress further the entry into the mine by real forensic experts to give us factual
information on the chain of events leading up to the disaster, and not to give any credence to the views
of a man trying to buy the mine on the cheap.

Monkey Poms.

[Monkey Poms]

If the DOC had allowed Pike to build a track up to the top of the mine to make the job safer and easier for Pike,
we could have certainly used the services of Dr Donald McGillivray Elder who gained a PHD in civil engineering
at the Wolfson College, Oxford in the United Kingdom.
He could have put the levels in.

Monkey Poms.

[minimoke]

Dr Don Elders took it upon himself to explain to the enquiry that the 20000 tonnes of coal had to be sold at a low price.


Which was low due to the combined effect of low volume and the quality was not as hard coking coal or semi-hard coking coal.

If I was heading the Inquiry I'd now be asking for a reconciliation consisting of Solid Energy staff member names against the share registry of PRC. I wonder if that would tell a tale?

[Mr Tommy]

Todays dominion (Page A3) quotes Elder at yesterdays royal commission:
"From 2000 onwards I and my Solid Energy colleagues increasingly held the view that the Pike River mine would experience significant production issues and this would result in major financial issues"

Looking back at this stock exchange release of 2007, it seems funny he was signing an agreement to move Pikes total output of coal

27/11/2007 GENERAL: PRC: Pike River Coal Announces New Coal Transport Route
Pike River Coal Limited has today announced it will transport it's premium hard coking coal by rail to Lyttelton, Christchurch for export under a new agreement signed with Solid Energy NZ Limited (Solid Energy).

And his so called worries about mine safety, that he never raised with anyone at Pike, and the fact SE itself was prosecuted 3 times for safety issues.

Why was this guy allowed to speak at the start of the inquiry, especially as his company is interested in buying Pike.

[dsurf]

Troy, I am just trying to put some perspective on the proceedings now going on in the Inquiry.

But what he is also saying is that the mine is worth billions if mined properly with the right expertise. That is a positive and it's now up to the receivers to make the best of that view.

So it is a positive for the Pikers. It could be that along with the insurance claim, they may yet recover some equity value.

Fair enough?

Being the first to often bag your opinions balance I will congratulate you on seeing that there will be equity value should the mine sell for more than 400/500 million. As a NZO holder I am relishing the prospect and think it more likely than not that the mine will sell for more than 500mill. I think though that the sale will be delayed past August so that the picture can clear a bit and most impotantly the body recovery is well underway. This adds value to the purchaser as the recovery plan can simply be taken over.

[Dworsf01]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but approximately how much would the mine need to be sold for in order to return something to the shareholders (after debts and other higher priority creditors have been repaid)?

I've written off my small shareholding and view it as valuable experience and a lesson in the perils of sharemarket investment, however it would be nice to think we'd get something / anything back.

[Billy Boy]

If the DOC had allowed Pike to build a track up to the top of the mine to make the job safer and easier for Pike,
we could have certainly used the services of Dr Donald McGillivray Elder who gained a PHD in civil engineering
at the Wolfson College, Oxford in the United Kingdom.
He could have put the levels in.

Monkey Poms.
I agree here, not something that has been spoken about much.
DOC, I fell, do have quite a bit to answer for.
No doubt they will again blame everone else.
BB

[minimoke]

I agree here, not something that has been spoken about much.
DOC, I fell, do have quite a bit to answer for.
No doubt they will again blame everone else.
BB
DOC is on the stand on Thursday. Be interesting to hear what they have to say.

[Monkey Poms]

Which was low due to the combined effect of low volume and the quality was not as hard coking coal or semi-hard coking coal.

If I was heading the Inquiry I'd now be asking for a reconciliation consisting of Solid Energy staff member names against the share registry of PRC. I wonder if that would tell a tale?

Hallelujah! Elder may have witnessed a miracle of metamorphosis! After a millennia under the earth this once sought-after coal transformed itself into c...p.

( My next cargo is due in September. Thought about asking the supplier, if the tonnage was only 20,000 tonnes, to discount it by US$130 p.tonne. Then thought better of it - I know what his answer would be).

As to your last paragraph Minimoke, you're right - that would tell a tale.

Monkey Poms

[Balance]

August 2008 - http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?t=4603&page=180

Croesus helpfully and in a timely manner, warned posters. Sp was $1.70 and heading down.

The abuse he received from some posters shows the 'head-in-the-sand' approach some take.

Example of the abuse copped by anyone who dared to question PRC.

Same going on now with Don Elder. We all know he has vested interest but that does not mean that they guy is telling pokies.

Do some of you guys want the truth or just interested in PRC's point of view?

[Ian]

I’d be extremely disappointed in anybody who stands up now and says they knew that something like this would happen, has expert knowledge, was in a position to do something or at least influence people and did nothing ….that would be disappointing to say the least

[Obelix]

Depending on how this commission of enquiry plays out, ie who is to blame for the closer of the mine (not the explosion, because that could have been rectified had people known what they wore doing.)

I am keen to see if any other shareholders who lost money in this venture would want to join together and seek legal action against the implicated party. This mine could have been saved had people known what they wore doing.

I do not have much faith in the receivers returning a single cent to any of the shareholders, my gut feeling is that the mine will go for a song - very quickly and quietly so as to not give shareholders much chance to act.

I find it disgusting how little information has been given to shareholders from the receivers in this matter.

If the contractors can ban together and seek financial compensation for this f*** up then I don’t see why the shareholders couldn’t do the same.

I am even prepared to go after the receiver if they do end up selling this mine for very little.

Thoughts?

[glennj]

Example of the abuse copped by anyone who dared to question PRC.

Same going on now with Don Elder. We all know he has vested interest but that does not mean that they guy is telling pokies.

Do some of you guys want the truth or just interested in PRC's point of view?

I also got a bit of snarkiness for passing on what some of the miners, contractors & an independent geologist were telling me. See the page or so after the one referenced. At least I acted & had sold all my shares well before the explosion.
Solid Energy know a lot about Pike because some of their staff worked on the early geological assessments of the area!

[brucey09]

Snr. Obelix - I agree this action

[iceman]

Welcome to Sharetrader Obelix. As a shareholder, I think it is worth exploring whether our interests are best served by legal representation.

[Balance]

I’d be extremely disappointed in anybody who stands up now and says they knew that something like this would happen, has expert knowledge, was in a position to do something or at least influence people and did nothing ….that would be disappointing to say the least

You should be very disappointed with some of the Pikers here with blood on their hands for the way they systematically ignored PRC's mismanagement and incompetence.

If you look at the reaction of them on this thread to any negative comments, who in their right mind would speak out too vocally against the incompetence and mismanagement of PRC directors and management?

The likelihood is that anyone speaking out before the tragedy would be hounded and decried etc.

So they keep the opinions to themselves but do pass it on as appropriate.

"Jane Newman, a director of Newman Energy Research with 31 years experience in the Pike River area, said Pike River Coal did not have a proper understanding of the geology of its coal mine. She was so concerned she told her husband, also a geologist, not to enter the mine in August.

"He asked me why not - I said 'it's just everything, the geology'. My feeling at that stage was that things were converging on a situation I wasn't happy about."

If Jane Newman had said anything, her firm and husband can forget about any more work, contract or friendship in the Pike River area. That was the reality.

It has taken the loss of the lives of 29 men to bring the issues out into the open for a proper hearing.

Sad but true.

[Balance]

Depending on how this commission of enquiry plays out, ie who is to blame for the closer of the mine (not the explosion, because that could have been rectified had people known what they wore doing.)

I am keen to see if any other shareholders who lost money in this venture would want to join together and seek legal action against the implicated party. This mine could have been saved had people known what they wore doing.

I do not have much faith in the receivers returning a single cent to any of the shareholders, my gut feeling is that the mine will go for a song - very quickly and quietly so as to not give shareholders much chance to act.

I find it disgusting how little information has been given to shareholders from the receivers in this matter.

If the contractors can ban together and seek financial compensation for this f*** up then I don’t see why the shareholders couldn’t do the same.

I am even prepared to go after the receiver if they do end up selling this mine for very little.

Thoughts?


Obelix, welcome to Sharetrader.

Before you get too involved, please be aware that you are dealing with mostly Pikers here - shareholders who happily swallowed whole whatever PRC told them in the past. They were also happy to be treated like mushroom. Why would they be any different now?

Look through the thread and you will see what I mean.

The Receivers are acting for the creditors - that's the reality of the situation.

[Balance]

If this is true, the game is over for PRC's management and directors.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10738343

Let's hope it's a case of a beat-up by the Greens.

[fabs]

INDEED-BALANCE ,
and if things go further down that track, NZOG will quite likely not be a serious and acceptable contender to bid for or be associated with the mine if that mine will have any future at all.
Also it looks increasingly that unless open cast mining is approved the cost of, if you like conventional mining will be so enormously costly, with safety requirements costs so prohibitive that irregardless the amount of coal still in the Mountain that it will adversely impact on the sale price.
TIME FRAMES FOR COMMENCEMENT OF ANY SERIOUS MINING, probably not for the next 2 years, maybe up to 5 years and well beyond or never.

[digger]

If this is true, the game is over for PRC's management and directors.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10738343

Let's hope it's a case of a beat-up by the Greens.

This point pisses me off no end. Firstly in my experience answer phones get replied to about 10 to 15 % of the time if my experience is anything to go by.It is what you have when you do not intend to answer the phone. The only thing worse is when you ring up some firm[Telecom] and get some accent coming from asia wanting to get something to Morrinsville only to find the person on the other end of the phone does not even know where NZ is.What to hell are we degerating to ??
If the truth is ever told,my gut tells me many miners could have been rescued if the old fashion selp miner system were left in charge.

[digger]

Depending on how this commission of enquiry plays out, ie who is to blame for the closer of the mine (not the explosion, because that could have been rectified had people known what they wore doing.)

I am keen to see if any other shareholders who lost money in this venture would want to join together and seek legal action against the implicated party. This mine could have been saved had people known what they wore doing.

I do not have much faith in the receivers returning a single cent to any of the shareholders, my gut feeling is that the mine will go for a song - very quickly and quietly so as to not give shareholders much chance to act.

I find it disgusting how little information has been given to shareholders from the receivers in this matter.

If the contractors can ban together and seek financial compensation for this f*** up then I don’t see why the shareholders couldn’t do the same.

I am even prepared to go after the receiver if they do end up selling this mine for very little.

Thoughts?


Welcome Obelix,
What you are proposing is extremely complex. The only requirement the receiver has in law is to the securied holders certainly not to the shareholders,from the little i know about the legal side of things.Your points are interesting but maybe the shareholders association is the next step .These things can get deep and complicated very quickly.

[Balance]

This point pisses me off no end. Firstly in my experience answer phones get replied to about 10 to 15 % of the time if my experience is anything to go by.It is what you have when you do not intend to answer the phone. The only thing worse is when you ring up some firm[Telecom] and get some accent coming from asia wanting to get something to Morrinsville only to find the person on the other end of the phone does not even know where NZ is.What to hell are we degerating to ??
If the truth is ever told,my gut tells me many miners could have been rescued if the old fashion selp miner system were left in charge.

You miss the point, Digger.

PRC is legally required to have a phone link for emergency purposes from mine to surface. The answer machine is as a consequence of the phone not being manned.

We have also been told that PRC did not react to the explosion immediately.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/pike-river-disaster/5181130/Contractors-release-disturbing-Pike-River-information

All pointing towards management and directors totally incompetent.

But Pikers do not accept that of course. PRC can do no wrong.

[digger]

You miss the point, Digger.

PRC is legally required to have a phone link for emergency purposes from mine to surface. The answer machine is as a consequence of the phone not being manned.

We have also been told that PRC did not react to the explosion immediately.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/pike-river-disaster/5181130/Contractors-release-disturbing-Pike-River-information

All pointing towards management and directors totally incompetent.

But Pikers do not accept that of course. PRC can do no wrong.


I got your point alright and no doubt this will be exhaustly studied by the RC.

But you did not seem to get my point that answer phones should be banned in many circumstances. Christ you can get an answer phone when you ring the police.So again it all comes down to a legal point of what a phone is and many are claiming that an answer phone fulls the requirements of a continus phone service. I certainly do not and now that 29 men have died the legal machine will thrash this out for millions of dollars to come.
No it is not in any way good enough.

[blockhead]

You miss the point, Digger.

PRC is legally required to have a phone link for emergency purposes from mine to surface. The answer machine is as a consequence of the phone not being manned.

We have also been told that PRC did not react to the explosion immediately.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/pike-river-disaster/5181130/Contractors-release-disturbing-Pike-River-information

All pointing towards management and directors totally incompetent.

But Pikers do not accept that of course. PRC can do no wrong.

You are wrong (un) balanced, I was a supporter of Pike to the extent I risked 40 - 50k on it, ok so thats gone, I know jack all about coal mining but in my view there was a good chance to make damn good money, obviously I wasn't alone in thinking that. However if the Pike Directors and the other "advisors" have done wrong then I have no problem with them facing the consequences.

[Balance]

You are wrong (un) balanced, I was a supporter of Pike to the extent I risked 40 - 50k on it, ok so thats gone, I know jack all about coal mining but in my view there was a good chance to make damn good money, obviously I wasn't alone in thinking that. However if the Pike Directors and the other "advisors" have done wrong then I have no problem with them facing the consequences.

That's good, Blockhead.

Wish that was the case before 29 men lost their lives, children were left fatherless and wives made widows.

Go back to the postings and observe the behavior of the Pikers in the past when there were postings of PRC management incompetence. PRC could do no wrong.

The most famous one was by a certain individual who stated after a meeting with PRC's management in 2009 that "I have been assured that there will be no more capital raising."

[winner69]

The Mine Manager, Peter Whittall is most able and extremely experienced. He worked for BHP for 25 years and during BHP's copper crisis was able to reduce his coal operation's costs by 40%. He was the first Manager to meet this budget. At the time all BHP's Managers were given this task.

At BHP he dveloped an underground coal mine from scratch right through to production.Very similar to Pike. NZO management did brilliantly in securing him.

He will successfully bring Pike to production.

Bermuda was always a great supporter of Whittal

Wonder what Whittal will say next week to the Royal Commission

[blockhead]

Phew, some damning evidence being given just now

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5282838/Pike-River-Royal-Commission-live-stream

[Balance]

Bermuda was always a great supporter of Whittal

Wonder what Whittal will say next week to the Royal Commission

It is not surprising that there will be damning evidence being presented - the explosion would not have occurred if the min e was properly managed and operated.

It is nevertheless shocking that there are those who had issued warnings well before the explosion but had been ignored!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5282258/Multiple-warnings-about-Pike-River-mines-safety-risks

1. "Former Chief Inspector of coal mines Harry Bell told the Pike River inquiry today he had repeatedly warned management about a lack of ventilation of the mine's dangerous methane gas." "Mr Bell said in 2009 a Pike River mine official had called him to raise concerns that at least 10 "ignitions" had taken place during drilling."

2. "The report called "A review of the Department of Labour's interaction with Pike River Coal Ltd" was written by two Australian mining experts who said the training "was an area where the company... failed miserably".

Well, Peter and fellow directors/management are going to have to explain why they ignored all those warnings.

[winner69]

Sniper was always warning us that the cg count of coal dust were so far outside 'acceptable range' to hold up workings. Refer to posts earlier in this thread

and sniper was right many years ago (back in 2008) - for those with long memories he may have been wrong about the overhangs but seems to have known about other dangerous things

[fabs]

OVERHANG or GRABEN take your pick

[Balance]

and sniper was right many years ago (back in 2008) - for those with long memories he may have been wrong about the overhangs but seems to have known about other dangerous things

Prophets were never appreciated in their own time?

[J R Ewing]

Prophets were never appreciated in their own time?

Profits are very much appreciated.

[brucey09]

Snr Ewing. I see you are returning to the rancho.

[dsurf]

Prophets were never appreciated in their own time?

throwing uncontrollably

[fabs]

Dates of AGM announced.
Why don't they skip it and put the money saved towards a pay-rise for those hard working Darlings in Management .

[fabs]

Op,s wrong forum

[Balance]

Most profound revelation yet - CEO of NZOG lost confidence in Peter Whittal several months before month's explosion :

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10739851

Looks like the board of NZOG should have listened to David Salisbury?

What a bunch of incompetent nincompoops the Board of PRC and NZOG are coming across as.

[winner69]

Now we can work out why Ward resigned ... either 'despondent' or the cause of the 'despondency'

But at the end of the day investor (shareholder) pressure to perform when undercapitalised is probably one of the main root causes

[Balance]

$207m estimated development cost in IPO. By 2010, looking at $350m spent and another $70m to be raised.

Yet there are Pikers here who hung on to every word of PRC's management as gospel truth.

Excerpt :

Simon Mount, counsel assisting the commission, has questioned Whittall over the company's cash issues.

Mount said the original IPO (initial public offering) documents for Pike River said the company expected it would cost $207m to develop the mine, however by mid-2010 the costs were up to about $350m, Whittall said.

The lack of cash had "become an issue" and Pike was in discussions with its major shareholder New Zealand Oil and Gas in a bid to raise $70m at the time of the explosion in November, Whittall said

[LIO]

I recall that in the development of the Tui oilfield there were delays and cost overruns. PRC may have been an extreme case, but hardly an isolated one. Isn't it well understood in the business world that ballooning costs and delays are common in such developments ?

[brucey09]

Snrs.
Snr. Ward was the man NZO setup with the mine. where is his voice now ?

[Balance]

Snrs.
Snr. Ward was the man NZO setup with the mine. where is his voice now ?

Maybe the Royal Commission needs to get him on the stand? The latest revelations are a shocker - how can Peter Whittal NOT be given a copy of a mine safety report!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Excerpt :

2:11: Royal Commission counsel Simon Mount has presented a report by gas drainage specialist Miles Brown on the Pike River mine. It says inadequate gas drainage pipeline diameter and inadequate workforce knowledge of the risks of gas holes in pipelines were safety problems. Mr Whittall says the inadequate pipeline diameter was a problem and was being addressed.

2.12 : The report recommended installing a new 'gas riser' within three months. Mr Whittall says his managers were working on identifying a place where a riser could be installed. He was not aware of the report from Mr Brown and is seeing it for the first time.

2:18: The report said the gas drainage pipeline at the Pike River mine was inadequate.

2:22: Pike River Coal (in receivership) counsel Stacey Shortall queries Mr Mount's line of questioning, saying Mr Whittall has made it clear he did not see the report.

[Monkey Poms]

Snrs.
Snr. Ward was the man NZO setup with the mine. where is his voice now ?

Hi Brucey. I would like to see Mr. Ward at the next stage of the enquiry to be questioned on why Pike had not applied for permission to opencast all, or even part of, the site. I am not convinced it was all down to economics due to the coal price of US$ 90 per tonne in early 2004, the exchange rate at the time being NZ$ to US$ 0.6708. One of the major costs in opencast mining is fuel which was one third of today's price in January 2004.

Was Ward told, on the quiet, by the DOC, that Pike had no chance to gain permission to opencast
(the safest way to mine coal), and therefore he followed the route which unfortunately led to the,
as yet unidentified, cause of the tragedy. Or was there a chance of actually gaining DOC opencast approval?

I have always thought that the figure of 60 million tonnes of mineable coal was on the low side.
Based on the area as described in the enquiry I have recalculated that if all the coal was to be
opencast from the top seam of coal alone, which in general opencast mining terms of depth to
ratio of coal would be described as little more than a scratch on the surface, the total tonnage
could be in excess of 115 million tonnes of coal which, at current pithead price, would be
approx US$250 per tonne ie US$28.75 billion.

If Don Elder, or anyone else, manages to steal it from us for a low price it could be the bargain of the century.

It would have been nice for us all to have had 20/20 hindsight.

Monkey Poms

[dsurf]

Looking forward and desparate to change the subject from the schadenfreude expressed by some posters who are deeply hurt by the comments from the mushrooms that had too much lycergic acid..

so what would a buyer of the mine have to price in?

1/ A second exit
2/ better ventilation
3/ better gas monitoring
4/ remining costs to recover bodies which assumably would also be part of the costs to clean up the rockfall debris
5/ A long wait eg 2 years to start the clean-up

Would a $billion do it? maybe

Would this be economic / attractive?

thoughts

[Balance]

Continuing the schadenfreude against the mushrooms and blinkered-eyed cheerleaders (Piker extras they shall forthwith be called) of PRC and NZO directors and management.

The Piker extras must know by now that their disgraceful conduct of trying to shut down anyone who dared to question the management of PRC contributed to management thinking they were immune from shareholders' and market scrutiny.

This is damning :

"Simon Mount, counsel assisting the commission, said underground mining regulations required mines to have a secondary exit for an emergency, which Whittall accepted. The fresh air base was not linked to the surface, so was not an exit. Whittall said the shaft had ladders and safety harnesses for workers to use to escape but he was unaware if a trial evacuation had ever been done.

However, Mount said a Pike River emergency equipment and self-escape audit, done in August 2009 by Mines Rescue Service, highlighted serious concerns about using the ventilation shaft as an escape route.

A second exit had been planned for the mine since 2005 but had never been built."

No trial evacuation? Says it all about attention to safety.

[minimoke]

Hi Brucey. I would like to see Mr. Ward at the next stage of the enquiry to be questioned on why Pike had not applied for permission to opencast all, or even part of, the site. I am not convinced it was all down to economics ....
MP you have missed the boat. We are currently in Phase One of the Inquiry which is all about putting the mine in context. The next Phase is about the Search and Rescue.

I'm not about to go through all the evidence (been there, done that in another thread and been roundly hammered for my efforts) but this bit of evidence from Mr Jones, the DOC mining guy at the time might be of help
"Q. To you knowledge was there any discussion or consultation with the company {PRC} – between the company and the department {DOC} regarding whether open cast mining was an option?
A. It‟s never been discussed.

Q. What about a, an alternative which has been raised in some of the submissions filed with the Commission that a road could have – sorry, an external access road up the area could have extended a lot further so closer to the coalface avoiding the need for a long entrance drift?
A. That‟s never been discussed and the slopes in that area are very steep, over 30 degrees steepness, so…"

There was also evidence, in respect of all the drilling that was happening around the place, that PRC never put on the table an idea for providing foot or vehicle access tracks.

Next up was Mr Smith Smith. Heres what he had to say:

"Q. So firstly Mr Smith, was it practical to build a road to vent shaft or further into the coalfield?
A. No I don't believe it was and that was because the terrain was very steep and geologically unstable. On a steep slide slope the amount of earthworks required to build a road in that vicinity increased significantly. The costs would have also been significantly higher and that unstable terrain required a lot more support works that would have required retaining walls and the like and because of the steeps slopes, water control would have definitely been an issue as well. There was
also known to be significant large rock hazards in that area so in my opinion I don't believe it, it was practical to build a road further in than what it currently was constructed to"

[Balance]

Good stuff, Mini.

I personally assess the evidence coming out so far as being extremely positive for the value of the mine.

All the evidence so far points towards incompetent management - basically a bunch of nincompoops who could get nothing right.

The coal is still there and worth billions to a real coalminer with expertise and experience - and there are many who would be now more keen on the mine, now that they know it's management incompetence rather than the mine being un-mineable. Example - can you imagine a mine which is required to have a secondary exit but (due obviously to cost pressures or plain incompetence) decides to add a few ladders and harnesses to a ventilation shaft (which had collapsed before) and call it the secondary exit route? Plus, never been tested before!

Solid Energy's attempts to undermine the value and talk themselves up as being the 'only' miner capable of developing and mining Pike is laughable - like Graham Henry saying that only he can coach the ABs to win the World Cup.

[minimoke]

I personally assess the evidence coming out so far as being extremely positive for the value of the mine.
.
I'm not so sure. Sure theres a truck load or two of high quality coal buts its the geological aspects that makes me a bit nervous. I have an interest in picking up Solid Energy shares if it gets to an IPO but if they do get Pike I'll look very closley at that position. Sure a huge amount of money has been spent so far but I can't help but feel there is a heck of a lot more cash needed to get this mine productive and safe. The terrain and geology (rather than the ecological aspects ) may actually be the deciding factor - economically it may just not be worthwhile. Perhaps thats something that Otter company figured out when they passed on their prospecting licence.

So thats teh end of Pahse One.
What do we know.
Back in 1983 PRC started their first drilling programme
in 1987 Paparoa National Park was formed - the area was, from that point on going to be a contentious ecological issue.
Early '90's OSH legislation changed making it the responsibility of the employer to manage the risks - not Mine Inspectors.
in 1998 PRC applied for permission for an underground mine.
By 2000 there probably wasn't enough geological data available to be making substantial business decisions.

These were the foundations upon which NZOG based their PRC investments. I'm not sure you can blame the deaths of the miners on events which occurred 12 years prior. The rules of the game were very well known. If people didn't like the game they didn't need to play. Lets see what the Inquiry decides though!

[Casa del Energia]

Good stuff, Mini.

I personally .. (sic) .. is laughable - like Graham Henry saying that only he can coach the ABs to win the World Cup.

Exactly, because nobody can coach the ABs to win the world cup.

[Balance]

Exactly, because nobody can coach the ABs to win the world cup.

Wrong. What about Sir Brian Lochore?

A loser attitude like that is why NZ breeds companies and management as in PRC.

Amazing that Peter Whittall is saying that PRC (and him obviously) are vindicated by the Inquiry!

"Speaking to reporters outside the Greymouth Court he said Pike River Coal's reputation hadn't been damaged.

"Just the opposite. I think it shows that the company has taken every conceivable step and employed every available consultant to provide the best possible advice," Mr Whittall said."

The ole "we employed consultants" pass the parcel?

[Balance]

Outside court, Monk, spokesman for the families, said Whittall had appeared to be dodging responsibility for the explosion.

"I'm in charge of a business, if something goes wrong I'm the person that gets in the firing line, so I'll leave it at that."

[fabs]

Looks increasingly like an OUT for the Insurers.

[Monkey Poms]

MP you have missed the boat. We are currently in Phase One of the Inquiry which is all about putting the mine in context. The next Phase is about the Search and Rescue.

I'm not about to go through all the evidence (been there, done that in another thread and been roundly hammered for my efforts) but this bit of evidence from Mr Jones, the DOC mining guy at the time might be of help
"Q. To you knowledge was there any discussion or consultation with the company {PRC} – between the company and the department {DOC} regarding whether open cast mining was an option?
A. It‟s never been discussed.

Q. What about a, an alternative which has been raised in some of the submissions filed with the Commission that a road could have – sorry, an external access road up the area could have extended a lot further so closer to the coalface avoiding the need for a long entrance drift?
A. That‟s never been discussed and the slopes in that area are very steep, over 30 degrees steepness, so…"

There was also evidence, in respect of all the drilling that was happening around the place, that PRC never put on the table an idea for providing foot or vehicle access tracks.

Next up was Mr Smith Smith. Heres what he had to say:

"Q. So firstly Mr Smith, was it practical to build a road to vent shaft or further into the coalfield?
A. No I don't believe it was and that was because the terrain was very steep and geologically unstable. On a steep slide slope the amount of earthworks required to build a road in that vicinity increased significantly. The costs would have also been significantly higher and that unstable terrain required a lot more support works that would have required retaining walls and the like and because of the steeps slopes, water control would have definitely been an issue as well. There was
also known to be significant large rock hazards in that area so in my opinion I don't believe it, it was practical to build a road further in than what it currently was constructed to"

Hi MM. The commission will have the power to recall witnesses,however much as i would like to
see Mr Ward on the stand I do not think it will happen.

Mr Smith.

1.19pm: It wasn't feasible to build a road to the mine because of the steep terrain, Smith says. Helicopter rather than tracks is the preferable access route.

Mr Smith being informed.
1.21pm: An all-weather track has now been completed to the vent shaft. ( OOPS )

1.24pm: Smith says health and safety issues were "inextricably linked" with environmental and cost issues. For example, trees might have to be cut to get helicopters in to the site, but the aim would be to not cut down lots of Rimu trees.

MM what does Harry Bell mean by if Pike River Coal had been allowed to extend the road?

12:10pm - Mr Bell says the location of the Pike River mine made it dangerous.
He says that, coupled with discrepancies over access, meant safety was compromised from the outset.
“If Pike River Coal had been allowed to extend the road 2 or 3 km further they could have reached the coal outcrops and gone straight in at that point,” he says.
“This would have been a less expensive and far safer mine.

The Doc have no recall of of any discussion with Pike over requests for opencast or a track up to the mine ventilator.

If I spoke privately to a local planning official asking the question regarding a possible planning application to build 12 houses, and he replied, "you have no chance, but you might get permission for two."
Would this be construed as a discussion or a nod and a wink?

Monkey Poms.

[minimoke]

If I spoke privately to a local planning official asking the question regarding a possible planning application to build 12 houses, and he replied, "you have no chance, but you might get permission for two."
Would this be construed as a discussion or a nod and a wink?

Monkey Poms.
You may well be right. I guess at the time a decision was made by PRC that an underground mine could be developed economically, safely and with an eye on the environmental issues it faced in that area. Those are the risks. Its for PRC to manage them. If at any point along the way the mine could not be run safely, economically or was going to breach the environmental provisions an alternative set of decisions could have been made. That they weren't suggests PRC was well aware of the issues and with the support of shareholders continued along a path which has unfortunatly led us to where we are today.

[brucey09]

Snr Monkey pom
The reason this mine fails is poor main managers , last and before that wanted to ? ship coal example to Taranaki, and buy incorrect Australian miner machines - and many many other things - not sensible. Will your commission ask all? Yes?

[Steve]

The tide of public opinion appears to be turning...

Blast of criticism hits mine boss (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10740351)
Praise was heaped on him for his leadership following the deaths of 29 workers at Pike River mine.

But that goodwill was brushed aside as mine boss Peter Whittall faced a barrage of criticism - some of it personally directed - at a royal commission of inquiry delving into what happened last November.

[patrick]

Is the Insurance payout...of whatever amount...dependent on the Company and its workers/ employees having no responsibility for the accident?

[digger]

Is the Insurance payout...of whatever amount...dependent on the Company and its workers/ employees having no responsibility for the accident?


Surely a clause that said that would make the insurance policy not worth having in the first place. The insurer would fall over themselves finding an out in such a case.

What i am really saying is that i do not have a clue but will be watching with interest the outcome which will not be settled until well after the RC is completed.
So far the RC has thrown up more questions than answers as to be expected. Also as to be expected everyone is scurring down the safety of the nearest rat hole. Let the good times roll.

[Monkey Poms]

What does it take for NZO to appoint or nominate someone to the board of NZO? Or considered in the past for Pike, the need for people who have PRACTICAL experience in coal & oil? Or is it obligatory to have unbalanced boards, consisting of mainly lawyers, accountants or directors who have directorships of many other companies and can only sparingly devote their time.
Pike have a very valuable asset - if all the coal was to be mined its value would be around US$28.7 billion or the equivalent in value to 245million barrels of oil.

The receiver has the power to halt the sale of the mine at any time.
Anyone out there with a plan before we wake up one morning, and find it has been sold for a song? Surely anything under NZ$500 million would be a song.

Monkey Poms.

[Obelix]

Pike have a very valuable asset - if all the coal was to be mined its value would be around US$28.7 billion or the equivalent in value to 245million barrels of oil.

The receiver has the power to halt the sale of the mine at any time.
Anyone out there with a plan before we wake up one morning, and find it has been sold for a song? Surely anything under NZ$500 million would be a song.

Monkey Poms.

Agreed, I am still trying to come up with what to do in case this does happen.

I think the investors in this forum should spend more time discussing a way to get some money back and not so much time talking about what should have / could have been done to prevent all this.

I personally would suggest we engage a legal professional - if we could get say 100 investors together and each come up with around $1,000 which get put in the lawyers trust account that would be $100,000 in legal fees - I think that would be a lot of money to get the ball rolling in case it comes that far ?
If the old grey power investors from failed finance and farming companies can organise themselves then surly we can too?

[Monkey Poms]

Agreed, I am still trying to come up with what to do in case this does happen.

I think the investors in this forum should spend more time discussing a way to get some money back and not so much time talking about what should have / could have been done to prevent all this.

I personally would suggest we engage a legal professional - if we could get say 100 investors together and each come up with around $1,000 which get put in the lawyers trust account that would be $100,000 in legal fees - I think that would be a lot of money to get the ball rolling in case it comes that far ?
If the old grey power investors from failed finance and farming companies can organise themselves then surly we can too?

Thanks Obelisk, good start to debating the problem. Come on lads - Balance, Digger, Iceman, Percy, Manxman and the rest of you guys. It's always interesting to read your points of view, there are lots of shrewd people on the forum.
( No directors amongst us, though that won't deter us. I'm sure we can come up with an idea for a plan to go forward).

Monkey Poms

You never know, one of your ideas may help to switch a light on with the directors of Pike!

[bung5]

It is out of the directors hands now. I'm sure the sale process is well advanced by the receivers

[Monkey Poms]

Hi Bung5,

If and when the insurance claim is settled, then the remaining amount of money required to pay off the receiver and creditors is small compared to the value of the Pike assets and US$28.7billion worth of coal.

Government owned Solid Energy are trying to put prospective buyers off to obtain the mine on the cheap. It does not matter how far the sale process has advanced, the receiver, Price Waterhouse Cooper in the sale conditions prospectus state PWC has the right to cancel the sale at any time.

At some point in time it would be nice to know the bid on the table. It may be worth applying for permission to opencast the mine if we could find a way to give Pike more time. It would be good to know if any Pikers have any ideas. The Pike directors might even take some notice of us if the bid is not up to their expectations. If it's over $500 million they will take the money.

Monkey Poms.

In NZ some auctions are not all sweetness and light.

Example, I took part in a auction organised by a nationally well known estate agent the intention to buy a holiday home, as the bidding drew to a close, I realised I was bidding against myself. Close escape.

[iceman]

MP & Obelisk, thanks for putting the challenge down. I am certainly not one of the better qualified/informed guys in this debate but have invested a relatively significant amount of money in PRC and to a lesser extent, NZO. I follow the debate here on ST as much as I can but am away from internet sometimes up to 60 days at a time in my primary industry job, so miss a lot of the discussion or am out of date with it. So please forgive me if I sound ignorant. Unfortunately I've just returned to "internet land" to find NZO has fuc..d up yet again. The NZO news are really disappointing but on the NZO thread, I see very little discussion about the potential HUGE upside in the value of PRC. MP has thoroughly explained the potential value of PRC on this thread, with his obvious industry expertise. I really am quite despondent about the negtive media and public discussion about PRC, but the facts remain that we have 20-30 $Billion worth of coal that we own the access to. Are we (including NZO) really going to give it away for a song ? I agree with MP that we need ST contributors like Digger, Percy,Maxman and Balance(sorry to the many others equally qualified, too many to name) to come up with ideas. Balance I have always valued (and sometimes ignored!!) your very valuable and important input into this discussion. I will also be the first (or 2nd) to acknowledge how correct you have been about the management of both NZO and PRC. Based on that clever foresight , I ask you for some positive advice on "whereto from here ?" to be thrown into this debate. I don't know if I am one of your frequently mentioned "PIKERS" but regardless, I ask for your continued input.
We have parliamentay elections coming here in 3 months. A lot of pressure can be put on any party with simple questions about open cast mining etc in electorates like West Coast/Tasman, Nelson and throughout the South Island. Of course most north islanders will be of no help here as it will not directly effect them !Obelisk, as suggested a couple of days ago on this thread by another poster, we shareholders do have an option to come together and ascertain and enforce our rights, whatever they may be. To do so we need a decent legal representation. I am in. Iceman.
I[
Thanks Obelisk, good start to debating the problem. Come on lads - Balance, Digger, Iceman, Percy, Manxman and the rest of you guys. It's always interesting to read your points of view, there are lots of shrewd people on the forum.
( No directors amongst us, though that won't deter us. I'm sure we can come up with an idea for a plan to go forward).

Monkey Poms

You never know, one of your ideas may help to switch a light on with the directors of Pike!

[minimoke]

It may be worth applying for permission to opencast the mine if we could find a way to give Pike more time.

So you guys don't think digging a 150 - 200m deep hole to get to a 7m coal seam has anything to do with the reason open cast wasn't the preferred option?

[tony64peter]

I'm good for a $k if a quorum is formed. Thanks Tony



Agreed, I am still trying to come up with what to do in case this does happen.

I think the investors in this forum should spend more time discussing a way to get some money back and not so much time talking about what should have / could have been done to prevent all this.

I personally would suggest we engage a legal professional - if we could get say 100 investors together and each come up with around $1,000 which get put in the lawyers trust account that would be $100,000 in legal fees - I think that would be a lot of money to get the ball rolling in case it comes that far ?
If the old grey power investors from failed finance and farming companies can organise themselves then surly we can too?

[fabs]

At the present S/P NZOG has been taken out as a serious bidder for the mine, as market sentiment would probably not entertain a money raising exercise needed to bring the mine to production.
Is that just coincidence or something else? Am going a bit out on a limb on that.
Any comments ?

[digger]

At the present S/P NZOG has been taken out as a serious bidder for the mine, as market sentiment would probably not entertain a money raising exercise needed to bring the mine to production.
Is that just coincidence or something else? Am going a bit out on a limb on that.
Any comments ?

Hi fabs,
Is this a fact that NZO is not a bidder for the mine.Where did you get that from?

[LIO]

So you guys don't think digging a 150 - 200m deep hole to get to a 7m coal seam has anything to do with the reason open cast wasn't the preferred option?

Hi minimoke,
Solid Energy boss Don Elder ( with experience in mining in the area ) said that if they puchased the mine they would use open casting in the areas where it was suitable - a combination of o/c and underground. I wondered at the time if he'd had the nod from govt. that approval would be given. Otherwise why would he have factored o/c into his equation ? Govt. may be preferring to keep this one quiet until after the election.

[LIO]

Agreed, I am still trying to come up with what to do in case this does happen.

I think the investors in this forum should spend more time discussing a way to get some money back and not so much time talking about what should have / could have been done to prevent all this.

I personally would suggest we engage a legal professional - if we could get say 100 investors together and each come up with around $1,000 which get put in the lawyers trust account that would be $100,000 in legal fees - I think that would be a lot of money to get the ball rolling in case it comes that far ?
If the old grey power investors from failed finance and farming companies can organise themselves then surly we can too?


Hi Obelix,
I'm with you too.
Puzzled at the apparent haste of the Receivers. I'd prefer they spent as long as is necessary to achieve the best possible outcome. Do Receivers have an obligation to all shareholders, or only to secured creditors ??

[bung5]

Hi Obelix,
I'm with you too.
Puzzled at the apparent haste of the Receivers. I'd prefer they spent as long as is necessary to achieve the best possible outcome. Do Receivers have an obligation to all shareholders, or only to secured creditors ??

secured creditors only

[morv]

Minimoke,the digging of a 150-200m deep opencast pit would be to improve access to the coal and to improve ventilation[gas removal],the removal of the mined coal would be done with the rebuilt slurry line thru the accesss tunnel[could be used to remove some of the above coal spoil once suitable size hole was dug down. You wouldnt be trucking coal ouit off the top of the pit

[fabs]

Probably wrong choice of words, did not mean NZO was in or out of the bidding, but personally feel that in the present predicament, in a very weak position to pull this off.
Reason being that the quite substantial cost to bring the mine to profitable production will need a lot of up front money.
NZO not being the markets and investors darling, probably never or only for a short time ever where,
will have difficulties raising the money needed.
A big handicap for a serious bidder.
[ Just an opinion ]

[Monkey Poms]

So you guys don't think digging a 150 - 200m deep hole to get to a 7m coal seam has anything to do with the reason open cast wasn't the preferred option?

Hi Minimoke, I'd like to get the opinion of the topography of the site from Peter Gunn, a geologist who gave advice to PRC in the early days, prior to the construction of the mine. I've seen the name ( Peter Gunn ) on the thread information in the past. However, the name seems pretty common on the West Coast, so it may not be the person I'm referring to.

Monkey Poms.

Interesting article: "Why wasn't Pike River Mine Open Cast"?
http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/why-wasn039t-pike-river-mine-open-cast-solo/5/73356

[Monkey Poms]

Minimoke,the digging of a 150-200m deep opencast pit would be to improve access to the coal and to improve ventilation[gas removal],the removal of the mined coal would be done with the rebuilt slurry line thru the accesss tunnel[could be used to remove some of the above coal spoil once suitable size hole was dug down. You wouldnt be trucking coal ouit off the top of the pit

Morve, most of the assets of Pike make some of the mines I have seen look like a scrapyard.
Hats off to men at Pike who built the roads and bridges to accommodate the pipeline to transport
coal the distance from the mine to the washing plant, a great idea that can easily be adapted
for opencast, (no need for heavy dumper trucks to be used to transport coal to the washer).
As a civil engineer, not a mining engineer, Don Elder, more than most, would appreciate this feat of engineering.
It is no wonder Don, in my opinion, with his dirty devious ways, is trying to buy this mine on the cheap.

Monkey Poms.

Solid Energy offering a bonus of $80,000 to each of the two families to drop Pike and transfere
the lease to S.E. ( despicable )
It would heve been good for Pike to have a NZ company to come in and pay a couple of hundred
million dollars for a 25% stake. Roa coal would have been a good choice.
Solid Energy?

Monkey Poms.

[Monkey Poms]

Receivers line up Pike buyers
By Laura Mills
The Pike River Mine receivers today confirmed they have brought potential overseas buyers to the West Coast, and have more lined up.
The receivers hope to have the mine sale tied up in a month’s time, with due diligence currently under way.
“We have had a couple of offshore people up the mine, and more coming,” spokesman Malcolm Hollis said.
He would not say who, or how many.
Meanwhile, Solid Energy and the receivers from PricewaterhouseCoopers were due in the High Court in Wellington today as they wrangle over the rail loadout facility, at Ikamatua.
The receivers claim that Pike River creditors will probably suffer
significantly if Solid Energy’s takeover of leases over the
company’s coal handling facilities at Ikamatua are allowed to stand.
Court papers filed earlier this year detailed the receiver’s efforts to keep paying rent on the leased land, which houses new
facilities and access roads valued at $7 million.
“The best value for Pike will be in its ability to sell the Ikamatua facility as a working operation to the successful
purchaser as part of the overall sale package,” in order to “extract the best value for the company and its creditors.”

Monkey Poms.

[fabs]

I have raised the above issue quite a long time ago on this forum,well before it was raised in media. RESULT

Clever ploy by S/E they can and will kick this around the courts for a long time, they are in no hurry, have the time and the $s till any opposition drops away, will probaly get this Plum for a song.
Totally different approach to business than NZO & PRC and their ilk.

[tony64peter]

Taranaki port authority is ramping up bulk goods through their facility with the loss of container traffic. BATHURST will be barging 75% of their coal thru Westport to Taranaki for panamax shippment. Cement plant could go soon to Timaru, so Westport is looking for more work. Since the PRC trucks are already loaded the only difference in costs would be extra kms to Westport and the difference in shallow draught shipping to Taranaki against the alpine rail charges. With this alternative S E could have leased a lemon as the plant is owned by PRC.


QUOTE=fabs;352587]I have raised the above issue quite a long time ago on this forum,well before it was raised in media. RESULT

Clever ploy by S/E they can and will kick this around the courts for a long time, they are in no hurry, have the time and the $s till any opposition drops away, will probaly get this Plum for a song.
Totally different approach to business than NZO & PRC and their ilk.[/QUOTE]

[minimoke]

Hi Minimoke, I'd like to get the opinion of the topography of the site from Peter Gunn, a geologist who gave advice to PRC in the early days, prior to the construction of the mine. I've seen the name ( Peter Gunn ) on the thread information in the past. However, the name seems pretty common on the West Coast, so it may not be the person I'm referring to.

Monkey Poms.

Interesting article: "Why wasn't Pike River Mine Open Cast"?
http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/why-wasn039t-pike-river-mine-open-cast-solo/5/73356
Hi MP.
Remember if we go way back in the past Pike River was formed when there was no National Park - so the whole environmental argument is a bit moot. Way back then they were probably looking simply at the topography and figured carving the top off a mountain was too hard and probably best to just drill a hole. Its a steep bit of mountain and theres over 6,300mm of rain so a bit damp.

Peter Withall is on record somewhere saying the Brunner coal seam runs some 150 - 700m under the tops of the ranges. 700m is getting to be a bloody big hole. So its probably fair to conclude if there is potential for open cast it will only be for a small part of the claim.

Underground also makes a bit of sense given the Paparoa Seam runs some 200m under the Brunner. Once you have the underground infrastructure in place I guess you could head further underground if there was a will.

[fabs]

tony64peter
Re: Port Taranaki
PRC right at the beginning tried very hard to do the sums on that scenario,
from memory rejected it because of cost.

[Monkey Poms]

So you guys don't think digging a 150 - 200m deep hole to get to a 7m coal seam has anything to do with the reason open cast wasn't the preferred option?

700m is getting to be a bloody big hole. So its probably fair to conclude if there is potential for open cast it will only be for a small part of the claim
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Minimoke, I don't think anyone is suggesting an opencast operation involving digging a hole 700m with overburden. Pit bottom is less than 300m to the top.
I will try to gauge from the information obtained from various sources to see whether or not opencast is viable.
My philosophy is if the numbers do not add up without a substantial profit then don't bother.

PW described the area as 6.4k long running north to south.
Running east to west the width varied between 1.8k to 2.5k.
Somewhere amongst all the bumf the figure of overburden is 184m to 70m. This looks about right using a scaled plan.
The coal seam varies between 7m to 12m in depth.
Coal in situe =app 0.9144m cube =1 tonne value US$250 ex site.

Working from the lowest point. Mine a strip 2000m x 100m.
The second strip will be a lot easier, you can push the overburden into the first trench then repeat.
Pike are lucky the land has not been worked before. Bathurst proposed opencast operation in part
is over a labyrinth of tunnels which have been mined before. You could be watching a dozer driver
removing earth then, bugger me, he disappears without trace.( not good for your health or wealth )
The weather at 6.3m of rain p annum is heavy but, as in other parts of the world it
can be managed. If you can contain some of it you could use it to your advantage to transport
the coal to washing plant through the flumes.

I rang a man up today who has a profitable opencast operation. He mines a poor quality steam coal
with an overburden of 15m to 1m of coal valued about £60 per tonne NZ$118
He informed me of a Scottish operator working a site with 25m overburden to 1m of coal
coal heat value 24,000 KJ/KG net in which he will be paid £2.5 per1000KJ
=24 x £2.5 =£60 per tonne=US$98.

It would be ideal to have the expert advice of a good muck-shifter, plus a geologist such as Peter Gunn. I expect he'd have a good understanding of the mine area. Together with the knowledge from Peter Whittal's experience on open-cast mining and some advice on heavy plant supply such as Caterpillar, Komatsu or similar I'm sure they could come up with a number that would give an answer to the equation.

How deep is the average overburden against the average depth of coal? At US$250 per tonne
what will it cost per tonne to mine?
A pure guess, looking at a digital topography of the area, with the land sloping from east to west,
I estimate an 11 to 14 overburden to 1mtr of coal.

Incidentally, mining that strip of 2,000 x 100mtrs would be worth approx US$536,361.750

I have bet the house on a number of occasions in the past. If I had the opportunity to work that strip, it would be on the line again!

Monkey Poms

Part two, Minimoke whilst you lot are all sleeping on the other side of the world.
On this side of the world,it is Friday night, and most of us have had a good drink,
I have decided that if you reply to my post disputing for instance the overburden,
I will try not to reply,you have more essays out of me than my school teacher ever did.

Good night all.

[tony64peter]

Thanks Fabs. Bathurst's Investor presentations are suggesting similar FOB costings to PRC's. My point really was to suggest that SE does not have the receivers in a headsqueeze regarding the sale. SE may well have the land tied up for awhile but they can't use the facilities for their own shipments unless they own the plant. Back when PRC looked at Taranaki the price of coal was significantly cheaper and margins would have been tighter.
Also what is to stop the buyer from leasing nearby land, moving the loadout plant and laying a new loop, minimal cost against purchase price, time is not an issue.
tony64peter
Re: Port Taranaki
PRC right at the beginning tried very hard to do the sums on that scenario,
from memory rejected it because of cost.

[fabs]

Yes Peter,
meant to mention changing prices of Coal you right, but of course other cost have also risen sharply since.
As to alternative routes, is not everything DOC land around the mine?

[tony64peter]

From the bottom of the mine site, preparation plant the coal was loaded onto trucks and carted around 15km to Ikamatua then loaded onto trains. From your earlier post I understand that as PRC was unable to pay the lease costs to the farmer, the owner of the land that the load out facility occupies and SE stepped in and made other arrangements tying up this lease. Most of the land around the Ikamatua load out facility adjacent to the railway appears to be farmland and east of it scrub, thru which the railway passes. To truck it the extra 70km to Westport, yes it would be expensive, may still be profitable.I wish I had listened to Balance and co a year ago as have done badly on this one.Although got most back from IRD and trading Bathurst.
Bathurst's consent for open casting, I'm hoping will be approved end of August and a further 5weeks for objections if any eventuate. I think the mood on the coast will overide the greens and this will be a goer. Once this opencast mine operates it sets a precedence for the area. Pike could then partially go that way as MP suggests.
Just found this http://westportnews.co.nz/wednesday.pdf



Yes Peter,
meant to mention changing prices of Coal you right, but of course other cost have also risen sharply since.
As to alternative routes, is not everything DOC land around the mine?

[fabs]

Good article Peter,
whatever the outcome, sale or no sale long lead up to productivity, huge upfront cost plus uncertainty of what conditions and format it will have to be operated under are going to be decisive issues.
So it is a case of watch this space and only time will tell, this will unfold driven by bargain hunters devoid of sentiments.
But we could no doubt do with a miracle.

[minimoke]

Hi Minimoke, I don't think anyone is suggesting an opencast operation involving digging a hole 700m with overburden. Pit bottom is less than 300m to the top.
I will try to gauge from the information obtained from various sources to see whether or not opencast is viable.

I've no idea where PW got his 700m figure from. I suspect it may have been a slip of the tongue. But consider the figure for a moment and what do you get - you get the Paparoa seam. Perhaps the ultimate vision was to set up an infrastructural to take out the Brunner resource and then go a bit deeper for the paparoa seam.

We are probably in agreement that it is technically possible to open cast Pike. But is it really feasible?

The first reality is that you would have to take the top off a National Park. Ask your Scottish mate what he reckons the chances are of digging a hole in one of Scotlands conservation estate would be like if there was a treasure trove under it. I suspect he will say -"it can't be done". It is technically possible to change the mind set of mining in a conservation estate. This would "simply" take a change in legislation. It won't happen this term - at best it could happen part way through Nationals next term - so that's two years away. Lets assume it can be done.

Next reality is that the National Government has no appetite to mine national parks. Gerry Brownlee popped his head briefly above that rampart only to have him scuttle away when only flack equivalent to a wet bus ticket began to fly. Nor can I imagine much appetite for open cast right next to a national park. If it could be done I'l put my money on it taking at least 5 - 10 years from the time the conservation estate legislation is changed to get resource consents. At that point you are looking at a third term National government who won't survive into a fourth term. Labour will over turn the legislation putting you back to step one. But lets assume you get resource consent

Next reality is that its a mountainous region, not on a flat platteau or nice rolling hills. That is going to be expensive. So you are going to need a huge capital raising to get the equipment for that level of excavation.. But lets say it can be done.

150m, no matter how you dress it up is a damn big hole. I've no idea how deep your man is going to get his 15:1 strip ratio. But consider a truck coming up the hole is productive, an empty one going down the hole isn't. The longer the trip the less productive, the greater the cost. So you are going to need a fair bit of cash just to finance the time its going to take to dig this hole.

Next reality is you now have a track up to the current mine entrance. Presumably you'll want to cut a road above and over the Hawera fault. Its steep terrain, its very wet, pretty much always either foggy or in low cloud and the ground is not stable. It is possibly some of the most in-hospitable open cast coal sites in the world. The risk to human safety will be an issue - but lets just say the Inquiry says there's no real problems and coal mining can continue with out any additional regulation. Yup - thats a pig you just saw flying by your window. But lets assume that's no barrier.

So you are now at the top of the mountain and merrily digging away. Only trouble is you are now digging over active faults and ground subsidence is a major risk But thats OK, you can spend the money to mitigate that risk.

Lets say you eventually get to the coal seam. Pike River have only done bore hole sampling at 400 - 500m. You are now going to see the true extent of the seam and the quality of the coal coming out. Thar's still a big unknown.

By this stage I think we could both agree that a pot load of money has been spent and quite some time has passed.

Why would you not invest the time and money in an already existing, but somewhat damaged tunnel infrastructure?

[Monkey Poms]

Hi, Digger. The guys on the NZO forum are going ape**** over not being paid a dividend.
Just a thought,bearing in mind NZO directors don't know when the insurance claim
will be settled.
Just suppose Balance and the rest of us ( Monkey included ) are wrong to criticise
NZO for not paying a dividend. Just a chance they may be cleverer than we think, they may
have a plan.
Call it plan Z.
The directors of NZO know the true value of Pike and are not prepared to let devious Don
with his unscrupulous methods in trying to discourage potential bidders for Pike to gain the
plum prize for a song.
My guess - a bid for Pike with the receiver, of under $500m, NZO will step in with a joint bid together with the Indians.

The number in which NZO are not prepared to sell the assets of Pike, therefore activating a joint bid?

For the paper exercise.
A 50/50 joint bid for Pike, total $400m. WHAT BENEFIT TO NZO?
If the $100m insurance claim is settled before the sale of Pike it makes the plan much easier.
NZO will recover NZ$ 39,262,588 commercial bond
12,073,353 loan to Pike
13,210,817 Loan to Pike
Total $ 64,846,758 Receiver to pay back to NZO funded from part of insurance claim.
From the NZO/Indian bid of $400m take 30m to add to the remains of the insurance money to pay off the Bank and other creditors $ 34,546,760 l/o insurance + $ 30m = $64,546,760
The receiver will have $370m to be split over 405,513,933 shares = to 91cents per share to distribute back to the present shareholders.
NZO hold 29.4% = 119,031,,670 shares x .91cents = $108,318,819
NZO 50% cost to purchase Pike assets $200,000,000
$108,318,819 from receiver distribution of surplus.
$ 91,681,,181 Balance
$ 64,546,758 receiver paid back bond and loans.
$ 27,134,423 cost to NZO, now they own 50%

For the grand total of $27,143,423 NZO could own 50% 0f Pike with the prospect of opencast in the future and the potential prize of US$28.7 billion worth of coal.
The prospect then would be a new share issue from the Indians & NZO, maybe the original shareholders ( us lot ) would be given a discount over any new investors.This would enable the new company to finance the way forward.
NZO directors would need nerves of steel, together with the retention of the dividend to pull this one off.
Especially if the the insurance claim has not been settled.

Should The board of NZO redeem themselves on this one, they are still guilty of not holding a basket of currencies from earnings.

Monkey Poms

Please find a hole in the maths, before I jump in and buy more NZO at 68 cents.

[Balance]

MP,

Your numbers make sense - so much will depend on who else is bidding for PRC however.

Unfortunately, your assessment that NZO directors are cleverer than we think make no sense.

Impossible to expect a bunch of aged clowns and academic has-beens to be smart given their unbelievable incompetency and mind boggling self-serving decision making to date :

- Squandering hundreds of millions of shareholders' wealth, especially the $250m of new equity injected by shareholders. The huge amount of cash generated from Tui has virtually disappeared down a black hole.
- Buying back PPP at a very high price, after selling the stake years ago at a low price : "Sell low, buy high."
- Pouring money into PRC without adequate understanding and competency in developing a coal mine.

Would be one big laugh as these clowns intended but for the fact that 29 miners are dead.

The glory days for NZO directors are well behind them - it's unfortunate they do not realise it as they are so typical of people of their generation with the 3 S's - stubborn, stupid and functionally senile. Sir Ron Brierley is another prime example.

[dsurf]

MP,

Your numbers make sense - so much will depend on who else is bidding for PRC however.

Unfortunately, your assessment that NZO directors are cleverer than we think make no sense.

.

91c per share for a $500mill sale? That would mean NZo post sale would be $1.50+. Balance this is not like you looking at un-bribled upside!

[Balance]

91c per share for a $500mill sale? That would mean NZo post sale would be $1.50+. Balance this is not like you looking at un-bribled upside!

I assume that MP is making an assumption that someone sle will come along and pay a higher amount later for PRC.

Otherwise, MP is making a circular argument - the more that NZO (and its by-now frightened Indian partner) bid for PRC, the more it has to pay itself!

Nope - NZO directors are a bunch of has-beens who unfortunately will stick around until peak oil becomes a reality. Then, we will all be senile like them!

[digger]

Hi Monkey Pom,
That has long ago crossed my mind. The problem here comes down to time. If you think that a pike settlement is in the next months then that plan you outline make for a good strategy. However if it is going to take years the damage of no income back to shareholders when KUPE is roaring along will take away the focus from NZO and its other positives.

So how long before we have a decent settlement and i do agree with you i do not want a gift to DON.In fact if it comes down to a Don giveaway then holding the funds from a dividend does warm my heart a little.

[Balance]

Hi Monkey Pom,
That has long ago crossed my mind. The problem here comes down to time. If you think that a pike settlement is in the next months then that plan you outline make for a good strategy. However if it is going to take years the damage of no income back to shareholders when KUPE is roaring along will take away the focus from NZO and its other positives.

So how long before we have a decent settlement and i do agree with you i do not want a gift to DON.In fact if it comes down to a Don giveaway then holding the funds from a dividend does warm my heart a little.

Think of the dealings/conversions/discussions Bermuda and you have had with NZOG directors and management. When have they delivered for shareholders?

Imagine taking in $197.3m from shareholders at $1.50 per share and turning it into 68 cents 2 years or so later! At a time when oil and energy prices are reaching record highs?

Takes a special kind of management to do that, no?

[Monkey Poms]

MP,

Your numbers make sense - so much will depend on who else is bidding for PRC however.

Unfortunately, your assessment that NZO directors are cleverer than we think make no sense.

Impossible to expect a bunch of aged clowns and academic has-beens to be smart given their unbelievable incompetency and mind boggling self-serving decision making to date :

- Squandering hundreds of millions of shareholders' wealth, especially the $250m of new equity injected by shareholders. The huge amount of cash generated from Tui has virtually disappeared down a black hole.
- Buying back PPP at a very high price, after selling the stake years ago at a low price : "Sell low, buy high."
- Pouring money into PRC without adequate understanding and competency in developing a coal mine.

Would be one big laugh as these clowns intended but for the fact that 29 miners are dead.

The glory days for NZO directors are well behind them - it's unfortunate they do not realise it as they are so typical of people of their generation with the 3 S's - stubborn, stupid and functionally senile. Sir Ron Brierley is another prime example.

Thanks Balance,
I can always rely on you to help me keep my feet on the ground!

Monkey Poms

[minimoke]

For the paper exercise.
A 50/50 joint bid for Pike, total $400m. WHAT BENEFIT TO NZO?
If the $100m insurance claim is settled before the sale of Pike it makes the plan much easier.
NZO will recover NZ$ 39,262,588 commercial bond
12,073,353 loan to Pike
13,210,817 Loan to Pike
Total $ 64,846,758 Receiver to pay back to NZO funded from part of insurance claim.
From the NZO/Indian bid of $400m take 30m to add to the remains of the insurance money to pay off the Bank and other creditors $ 34,546,760 l/o insurance + $ 30m = $64,546,760
The receiver will have $370m to be split over 405,513,933 shares = to 91cents per share to distribute back to the present shareholders.
NZO hold 29.4% = 119,031,,670 shares x .91cents = $108,318,819
NZO 50% cost to purchase Pike assets $200,000,000
$108,318,819 from receiver distribution of surplus.
$ 91,681,,181 Balance
$ 64,546,758 receiver paid back bond and loans.
$ 27,134,423 cost to NZO, now they own 50%

I'm not sure the numbers work.

If we go to the Receivers report they say "At this time, the outcome of the receivership is very uncertain assessment is that it is unlikely that any funds will be available to meet the claims of unsecured creditors"

PRC has $100m in insurance - but these are business interruption insurances and I suspect most of the cash will be currently being spent on day to day operations including rescue efforts, stabiliation etc. Can we assume there will be no surplus form the insurance?

The receivers reckon there is $78.5 m in debts and liabilities excluding unsecured creditors. PRC had $11m in cash. If we put that towards the ranked creditors that leaves PRC to find $67.5m. Can we take it the Receivers don't expect a bid of much more - if there was more they'de be able to pay off the unsecured creditors.

So, if the Receivers are looking for $67.5m NZO could do a 50/50 JV bid with the Indians for $33.75m each. Essentially the JV wouldn't cost NZO a cent - indeed the Indians would be giving them extra cash.

So the receivers are saying, at best NZO could get $39.2m and $12m back. If unsecured creditors aren't expected to get their $32m back there's no show shareholders will get anything.


For the grand total of $27,143,423 NZO could own 50% 0f Pike with the prospect of opencast in the future and the potential prize of US$28.7 billion worth of coal.
The prospect then would be a new share issue from the Indians & NZO, maybe the original shareholders ( us lot ) would be given a discount over any new investors.This would enable the new company to finance the way forward.
I'm not sure where you get your $28.7b prize. PRC reckon, at best there is a total resource of 58.5m tonnes. They had plans to pull out 18m. Even at $250 a tonne you don't get your prize with open cast.

[Monkey Poms]

I'm not sure where you get your $28.7b prize. PRC reckon, at best there is a total resource of 58.5m tonnes. They had plans to pull out 18m. Even at $250 a tonne you don't get your prize with open cast.[/QUOTE]

Hi Minimoke You are right to quote the tonnage to be mined by underground mining methods, 18m from a total 58.5m from an area that can safely be mined. Outside that 58.5 million tonne area there are areas in which you would not, for safety reasons, allow the continuous coal cutters or hydro mining to operate. For instance these machines wouldn't be allowed to operate anywhere near the edges of the western boundary, which runs from north to south for 6.4ks, with the full coal seams exposed.

By the open-cast method, with a long-reach Backacter you can safely take the coal and the overburden out, right up to the edge. This makes a significant increase in coal tonnage that can be removed.
When I worked out the area that could be available for open-cast I thought I was being conservative in my estimation.

Monkey Poms

[minimoke]

When I worked out the area that could be available for open-cast I thought I was being conservative in my estimation.

Monkey Poms
Given Solid Energy are likely to be a bidder perhaps its worth looking at something like Stockton by way of comparrison to work out the feasibility of opencast.

Stockton appears to cover an area of 2,500 hectares where as Pike is around 975 hectares (6.5km North South. 1.5km East /West - according to PRC)/ Lets call it a third the size.

Both are around a 1,000 elevation with around 6 meters of rain.

Stocktons seam is around 4 - 15, thick and Pike is average 7m.

Stocktons overburden is 35m, mainly sandstone. Pike is a bit unknown but a mix of sandstone and Gneiss rock. We do know the over and interburden are around 150m - so that's say 4 times the depth of Stockton.

Stockton has its snails (at a cost of $35m), Pike has its solitary duck.

Stockton is pretty much on the coast, Pike is a fair way inland.
Acid mine drainage and metal leachates are both bound to be a problem.

PRC developed their mine for $100m plus a few unbudgetted extras. Hard to know how much Stockton has cost to develop but solid energy recently spent $280m on coal processing plant, mobile plant and infrastructure upgrades.

I just get a sense that open cast (teh greenies aside) is just not as easy as it may seem.

It strikes me there are two main option open to punters with a few bob to throw at this. Either invest in a revitalized underground at Pike (and filly exploit the Brunner seam and have Paparoa Seam in reserve). Or invest in Solid Energy at IPO for exposure to Open Cast. (or keep investing in Bathurst)

[Obelix]

After reviewing the information given in the royal commission of enquiry over the last 2 weeks, I have come up with some conclusions of my own.

1 x Sue the Government department that signed of on the mine and or the department that did the safety inspections.

Argument being you can not first take money from someone, sign something off as safe and then when **** hits the fan walk away from it and take no responsibility. (It’s a bit like the leaky home syndrome)

So far the commission has uncovered that the laws and regulations regarding mine safety in NZ are appalling.

The government department would most likely argue “we only did our job and followed the rules / laws at the time, fact that the rules and laws were not adequate shouldn’t be our fault”

“Counter argument is yes it should be if we follow the laws in good faith and it leads to the destruction of our property / investment much like with leaky homes”


I also thought of option 2

Sue the Police Department for shutting down the mine for as long as they did which forced NZO the biggest shareholder to call in the receivers. Argument being the Police didn’t have the expertise needed in dealing with this matter and subsequently things went from bad to worse. Ignorance or incompetence is not a defense the last time I checked?

Anyway this is just me thinking out loud, would need to run this past a proper lawyer and get their input.

Thoughts?

[Obelix]

Sorry to multi post, but to clarify I believe that what we need to do is basically find someone to blame for the destruction of our asset/company and someone with deep pockets.

Since we can not afford our own independent experts we will need to rely heavily on the findings from the commission of enquiry.

No point suing PRC management/ directors because they wouldn’t have enough money.

No Point suing an individual because they wouldn’t have enough money.


Also does anyone know / have an idea on how we can find all of the registered shareholders?

Perhaps some sort of website which wouldn’t cost much money?

Are there other share trading forums in NZ where shareholders from PRC might be lurking and we can start a thread?

Basically we need numbers, only 4 or 5 of us will not be enough.

[J R Ewing]

Obelix, how do you propose to fund this longshot lawsuit? It's easy to sling around allegations of blame, but you might need a magic potion to transform that into a provable legal liability!

[Obelix]

I intend to fund this with money what else?

Have you got any? I do

Stacey Shortall – Partner Minter Ellison Rudd Watts (http://www.worldservicesgroup.com/?action=page&pcomp=9441)

This is the lady representing PRC at present at the commission of enquiry. She would already know what is going on and have expert knowledge on the matter.

Perhaps we should write her a letter and see if she responds?

It would be in their best interest to help us to at least establish if we had a case or not as they are already representing our company technically.

http://www.worldservicesgroup.com/members-locations.asp?action=pro&n1=37462 (http://www.worldservicesgroup.com/members-locations.asp?action=pro&n1=37462)

Doesn’t hurt to ask, worst that can happen is she doesn’t reply or she tells us this is not possible in which case we no longer need to continue this discussion. At least we will have done something rather then just sitting around and waiting?

[minimoke]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Sorry to multi post, but to clarify I believe that what we need to do is basically find someone to blame for the destruction of our asset/company and someone with deep pockets.
If you give the stages of teh Inquiry time to unfold you may well find the source of your blame.
I'm pretty confident that you'll be tough out of luck trying to blame the Gummint (check out Cave Creek tragedy and you'll get a sense of incompetence on the West Coast).

I get a sense PRC had a game to play and the rules were pretty clear. Rule one was build a mine underground. PRC choose to continue playing the game. That kind closes teh door on suing DOC. What caused the explosion (and there will be multiple failures that led to the ignition) has yet to be determined. Sure try to blame the police - but don't forget there was more than one explosion which will help mitigate their position. Try to sue DOL - well the laws were there and its too early to say which ones were breached by whom.

Perhaps I'l consider the situation more over the weekend - but time to lick my own wounds after todays hammering. Though its pretty minimal compared with what holders of PRC have taken on the chin.

[Obelix]

People in this forum need to come up with constructive helpful things rather then anti anti if they want to get some of their money back.

The first instance in winning in court in my experience over the years is being dogmatic about your approach, the fact weather you are actually right or wrong is irrelevant, that’s for the judge to decide. Winning and getting what you want is the priority not worrying about things like (maybe you are to blame) again that’s the judge’s decision.

Be brave and dare to take anyone on no matter how big they may seem, worst scenario is they call your bluff and you have lost very little.
Just imagine the reaction and media attention this would get if this even went to an initial hearing?

Needless to say we are not going to be very popular, but who cares this is about money and nothing else.

[digger]

The only clear winner out of all this will be the legal boys and DON from Solid Enegry if he can later on pick it all up for next to nothing.From past experiences it is just hopelees to sue govt,councils,police,ets. About this time next year we will likely know the outcome of all this if we are lucky,or else it will drag on anothe couple of years.
Sorry i can not be of more help but i do think i am realistic.Those who own NZO shares have the best indirect chance of some return.
Amen and now for the long wait.

[Monkey Poms]

Why would you not invest the time and money in an already existing, but somewhat damaged tunnel infrastructure?Quote

Hi Minimoke.
If the safest mine in existence had a similar disaster such as Pike, there would be experts out there, no doubt, who could find faults in the system. Underground mining is inherently dangerous.
Up to now no-one knows, as you mentioned, the sequence of events that took place at PRC to cause the explosion.
I have a gut feeling the cause must be something out of the ordinary, and all parties involved have been extremely unfortunate.

I would put my hands in my pockets to invest in Pike again, but only if the cause of the explosion becomes apparent, and could be avoided in the future. We don't want to risk anymore lives down there.
I don't think the mine was too far away from beginning to turn a profit.
I know that you are anti-opencast. How about we compromise? Opencast the shallow seams of coal, deep mine the rest.
Try to retain the ownership with the present shareholders.

Monkey Poms

[minimoke]

I know that you are anti-opencast. How about we compromise? Opencast the shallow seams of coal, deep mine the rest.
Try to retain the ownership with the present shareholders.

Monkey Poms
I'm not against opencast. If I was I wouldn't have invested in Bathurst nor would be interested in Solid Energy. I am against throwing good money after bad. Attempting to open cast Pike or sue the Govt (or someone else) for the mines losses are two examples of this.

How about a compromise. We invest in SE to give them the capital they need to open up the Pike tunnel, mine that seam and access to Paparoa. Most of the infrastructure is already their including a road and a way of getting the coal off the mountain. I just can't see the point in trying to develop even a small open cast operation when ultimately underground is needed to exploit the full potential.

It strikes me that holders of Pike are similar to holders in Hanover and SCF and their ilk. What started out as a good idea turned to custard but holders remain blinkered to the reality they face. I kind figure it is wrong to encourage hope where none should exist.

[glennj]

My opinion is that opencasting is a red herring re the residual value of PRC. For geological, environmental & engineering logistics reasons opencasting of Pike is unlikely to ever happen. I've been there & walked much of the terrain, talked with a geologist & engineer who have worked on the Pike project but not as Pike staffers.
Their opinion is that Solid Energy have the best credentials to mine Pike. (with all their local experience at Spring Creek etc) but they would likely look for an equity partner to fund the development. Not having Solid Energy involved could mean another debacle if a company like PRC with an inadequate geological & mining understanding of local conditions got to tackle the job alone.

[digger]

My opinion is that opencasting is a red herring re the residual value of PRC. For geological, environmental & engineering logistics reasons opencasting of Pike is unlikely to ever happen. I've been there & walked much of the terrain, talked with a geologist & engineer who have worked on the Pike project but not as Pike staffers.
Their opinion is that Solid Energy have the best credentials to mine Pike. (with all their local experience at Spring Creek etc) but they would likely look for an equity partner to fund the development. Not having Solid Energy involved could mean another debacle if a company like PRC with an inadequate geological & mining understanding of local conditions got to tackle the job alone.

glennj you sound for all the world like you are in full time employment with Solid Enegry.A bit like a long term govt saying that the opposition should not be elected as they simply do not have the experience.

[minimoke]

Their opinion is that Solid Energy have the best credentials to mine Pike. (with all their local experience at Spring Creek etc) but they would likely look for an equity partner to fund the development. Not having Solid Energy involved could mean another debacle if a company like PRC with an inadequate geological & mining understanding of local conditions got to tackle the job alone.
I don't know if SE are the only credible bidders. I'm sure there must be other offshore expertise that could do a good job if the price is right.

It is not for the recioevers to determine if the next owner will make a decent job of mining the resource. The Receiver simply has to do the best they can to get NZO's money ($51m) back. If they do better than this then the unsecured credits get some or all of their $32m back. The receivers have already flagged it is unlikely that PRC shareholding will get anything. The receivers have an obligation to get the best price reasonably obtainable they can.

The only way PRC holders are going to get a share of the Bruner Seam spoils is to invest in the new owner. If that new owner happens to be SE then we'll have to wait for the IPO. If NZO manage to stitch something together then NZO holder are in the box seat - assuming they can do a better job than PRC in managing the mine. Based on past experience this may not be likely. Assuming SE or NZO don't get the mine than the only way to get a share in it is to buy into the new offshore owners. Perhaps there should be more support for Solid Energy as this may be the only credible way for a NZ based investment.

While the Receivers have a responsibility to get the best price possible, Solid Energy have a responsibility to pay as little as it can. It seems SE have outsmarted the receivers by securing the land leases at Ikamatua. If SE wins the High Court action these leases won't necessarily be fatal to a decent sale price but it is likely that the price achieved won't be as great as it might have been had the recievers seen and secured the lease assets. If SE wins there may be an argument that Price Waterhouse were negligent - but negligence actions against receivers are few and far between. Generally there is nothing illegal about out manouvering a Receiver - at the moment my money is on an SE win with that court case. If SE win, this may see a few potential bids fall off the table.

As a tax payer (and therefore shareholder of SE) I commend them for their approach. They are endevouring to expand their asset base, potential long term earnings which will make them much more attractive at IPO. And the governemtn will be happy about that!

[glennj]

glennj you sound for all the world like you are in full time employment with Solid Enegry.A bit like a long term govt saying that the opposition should not be elected as they simply do not have the experience.

No I don't work for SE. Have a forestry & project management type background. I am a self employed contractor/consultant/investor these days who has done work for a mining company this year but it wasn't Solid Energy. My post was just reflecting the opinions of some well qualified people that I know. Thought some here may be interested in hearing this.

[Mr Tommy]

Latest progress report from the weekend:


Efforts to re-enter the Pike River Coal mine's 2.3-kilometre tunnel are progressing.
The bodies of 29 men remain trapped in the mine after November's explosions.
The first set of steel double doors was to be completed at the tunnel entrance yesterday. The second set will be installed next week to seal the mine.
Receiver Malcolm Hollis, of PricewaterhouseCoopers, said an option for tunnel re-entry was to pump an expanding foam grout, Rocsil, down a borehole to create a remote seal near a rockfall, more than 2km underground. The foam would expand to 35 times, hardening in about five minutes.
It would be faster than the alternative staged re-entry by Mines Rescue Service volunteers, who could erect temporary seals every 300m along the tunnel to the rockfall, Hollis said. "It's just one seal, so you don't have to put Mines Rescue staff at risk and it's probably quicker."
A decision was likely this month. If the tunnel had a remote seal, staff could enter it fully.
Gas readings had been stable since a temporary door was installed 270 metres into the tunnel, which enabled work on the two sets of doors.
The mine's slimline shaft would be filled in the next few weeks to prevent oxygen leaks, reducing fire risks. The ventilation shaft had been sealed.

[digger]

Latest progress report from the weekend:


Efforts to re-enter the Pike River Coal mine's 2.3-kilometre tunnel are progressing.
The bodies of 29 men remain trapped in the mine after November's explosions.
The first set of steel double doors was to be completed at the tunnel entrance yesterday. The second set will be installed next week to seal the mine.
Receiver Malcolm Hollis, of PricewaterhouseCoopers, said an option for tunnel re-entry was to pump an expanding foam grout, Rocsil, down a borehole to create a remote seal near a rockfall, more than 2km underground. The foam would expand to 35 times, hardening in about five minutes.
It would be faster than the alternative staged re-entry by Mines Rescue Service volunteers, who could erect temporary seals every 300m along the tunnel to the rockfall, Hollis said. "It's just one seal, so you don't have to put Mines Rescue staff at risk and it's probably quicker."
A decision was likely this month. If the tunnel had a remote seal, staff could enter it fully.
Gas readings had been stable since a temporary door was installed 270 metres into the tunnel, which enabled work on the two sets of doors.
The mine's slimline shaft would be filled in the next few weeks to prevent oxygen leaks, reducing fire risks. The ventilation shaft had been sealed.

Thanks Mr Tommy for this info . How did you get this info and how accurate? Was it just from the boys at the pub or some official release?
Surely the market meltdown will not be good news for selling the mine into.At one point we were hoping for some news from the receivers this month but i can not see that now.

[Monkey Poms]

My opinion is that opencasting is a red herring re the residual value of PRC. For geological, environmental & engineering logistics reasons opencasting of Pike is unlikely to ever happen. I've been there & walked much of the terrain, talked with a geologist & engineer who have worked on the Pike project but not as Pike staffers.
Their opinion is that Solid Energy have the best credentials to mine Pike. (with all their local experience at Spring Creek etc) but they would likely look for an equity partner to fund the development. Not having Solid Energy involved could mean another debacle if a company like PRC with an inadequate geological & mining understanding of local conditions got to tackle the job alone.

glenni why specifically do you think opencast would not work for Pike, when Roa coal are successfully using opencast method to mine part of the same mountain range ( similar geology & topography ), a relatively short distance from Pike's operation?
From a contact here in the UK, I heard they are doing very well.

Monkey Poms.

[Xerof]

Roa coal are successfully using opencast method to mine part of the same mountain range ( similar geology & topography ), a relatively short distance from Pike's operation

Really? This is from ROA website

ROA Mining Company Ltd operates the ROA Mine which is situated on the West Coast of New Zealand’s South Island, 30km northeast of Greymouth, in the Greymouth Coalfield.
ROA Mine is predominantly an underground mine producing high quality hard coking coal. Coal is extracted using board and pillar and hydro monitor techniques then pumped to the surface in slurry pipelines to the processing plant.
Processed coal is stockpiled at the mine and then transported by road to our rail loading facility at Stillwater. From Stillwater coal is transported 190km by train across the Southern Alps to the East Coast port of Lyttelton near Christchurch. Lyttelton Port can accept vessels with capacity up to 65,000 metric tonnes. There is also provision for the coal to be transported to the Port of Greymouth on the West Coast which can cater for ships and barges up to 8,000 metric tonnes.
To maintain high quality, transportation of coal to the ports is undertaken for specific cargo only. Great care is taken to avoid contamination at each stage of the transportation process.

[minimoke]

...when Roa coal are successfully using opencast method to mine part of the same mountain range .
Successfully?????. I guess. Provided you don't count the death of one of their miners in a shaft collapse 800m from the mine entrance.

Aside from that the Morgan West underground mine produce 90,000 time a year, Morgan South, 40,000 tonnes PA leaving 23,000 tonnes to the open cut mine. Its only a few KM's away from Blackball and it on crown coal reserve land (not a DOC estate). Rainfall is a mere 3.4m. Its known for its unstable slopes. Overburdon polluted the Paparoa and ford Creeks and there were complaints about diesel fumes, noise and dust. Research back in 1990 indicated that if opencast continued severe local environmental damage was inevitable. Mining there was fraught with difficulty and they would have spend a bit getting it right.

[Mr Tommy]

Thanks Mr Tommy for this info . How did you get this info and how accurate? Was it just from the boys at the pub or some official release?

Was on stuff website:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/5393768/Pike-River-re-entry-one-step-closer

[digger]

Was on stuff website:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/5393768/Pike-River-re-entry-one-step-closer

OK thanks. have been too busy watching the finanical world fall apart and London burning.

[LIO]

A quick reminder that Don Elder stated that if Solid Energy bought the Pike mine, they would use a combination of underground and opencast. (Apparently ROA operation is predominantly underground, with some open).

[Monkey Poms]

Really? This is from ROA website

ROA Mining Company Ltd operates the ROA Mine which is situated on the West Coast of New Zealand’s South Island, 30km northeast of Greymouth, in the Greymouth Coalfield.
ROA Mine is predominantly an underground mine producing high quality hard coking coal. Coal is extracted using board and pillar and hydro monitor techniques then pumped to the surface in slurry pipelines to the processing plant.
Processed coal is stockpiled at the mine and then transported by road to our rail loading facility at Stillwater. From Stillwater coal is transported 190km by train across the Southern Alps to the East Coast port of Lyttelton near Christchurch. Lyttelton Port can accept vessels with capacity up to 65,000 metric tonnes. There is also provision for the coal to be transported to the Port of Greymouth on the West Coast which can cater for ships and barges up to 8,000 metric tonnes.
To maintain high quality, transportation of coal to the ports is undertaken for specific cargo only. Great care is taken to avoid contamination at each stage of the transportation process.

Really Zerof? I watched the Roa opencast operation for a couple of hours last February,you could
see the operation from the town of Blackball 2k from the mine as the crow flies.
The owner of a local shop told me at the time, that for the past three weeks trucks
had been passing his shop continually, loaded with coal, for up to 10 hours a day.

Pike must be 30ks from any town.

Monkey Poms

[Xerof]

Monkey, my point was that it is predominantly underground, not open cast

There's a short video of the operation on their website if you are interested

[minimoke]

Monkey, my point was that it is predominantly underground, not open cast

At 23,000 tonnes the open cut is a mere 15% of Roas production.

[Monkey Poms]

Pike contractors drop action
By Viv Logie
West Coast businesses out of pocket by $5 million when the Pike River Coal Company placed itself in receivership have backed down on their attempt to liquidate the company.
Liquidation papers were filed in the Wellington District Court in mid-June, however the businesses have stayed the liquidation, contractors and suppliers group spokesman Peter Haddock said.
He was today playing his cards close to his chest, but agreed that the liquidation process had not gone ahead because they were in negotiations with the Pike River receivers, PricewaterhouseCoopers.
“I cannot say too much at this stage, however we have had negotiations and are hopeful of a positive outcome.”
Talks had been stalled for some time, while key personnel were away, but everyone was back on deck this week and he expected some news by the end of the week as to what the receivers would offer the businesses.

Reported in the Greymouth Star,
Hopefully the unsecured creditors may get paid.
There could be some news soon,

Monkey Poms.

[LIO]

Thanks for that MP. I'd like to say I do appreciate your posts.

[minimoke]

Reported in the Greymouth Star,
Hopefully the unsecured creditors may get paid.
There could be some news soon,

Monkey Poms.Hopefully they get paid and get paid soon. But I'm not sure this is good news for the unsecured creditors nor shareholders.
The Receivers have already said there are claims for $15.4m from unsecured creditors. So these guys only make up a third of those claims. We also know the Recivers have said that the recievership is unlikely to raise sufficient funds for the unsecured creditors.

Perhaps there is a glimmer of hope for them if PRC can be sold as a going concern - they may get their money back eventually. But if PRC is liquidated PRC will probably go in a fire sale and these guys are a long way down the queue for the cash raised. Liquidation would surely seal their fate and guarantee no return to them.

Given these assumptions PRC could be on the block now for less than $75m - which would see the secured creditors paid. The alternative being the recievers are raising more than $75m and there wil be cash for the UC's. Surely PRC can't be far from an announcement now - I thought they had originally planned one for the end of June.

[dsurf]

Perhaps there is a glimmer of hope for them if PRC can be sold as a going concern - they may get their money back eventually. But if PRC is liquidated PRC will probably go in a fire sale and these guys are a long way down the queue for the cash raised. Liquidation would surely seal their fate and guarantee no return to them.

Given these assumptions PRC could be on the block now for less than $75m - which would see the secured creditors paid. The alternative being the recievers are raising more than $75m and there wil be cash for the UC's. Surely PRC can't be far from an announcement now - I thought they had originally planned one for the end of June.

PRC sale was indicated by Aug. IMO it will be not finalised til Nov / Dec. It is in the interests of NZO (appointed receiver) to delay as long as possible so that the uncertainty around key items will hopefully reduce. These include; $100m? of insurance money ; The body recovery operation; The commision of enquiry and current shakey markets. The less uncertainty the more likely more bidders and a higher sales price. This would benefit NZO as they would have money coming as an unsecured creditor & shareholder if any is available. I wold not be entirely surprised if the sale ended up not completing until after the commision of enquiry especially if some/all of the insurance money becomes available and then the receivers can wait. Of course that would be a terrible outcome for the unsecured creditors.

[minimoke]

I wold not be entirely surprised if the sale ended up not completing until after the commision of enquiry especially if some/all of the insurance money becomes available and then the receivers can wait.
I think you are right that any sale is unlikely to complete until after the inquiry releases its findings. While potential bidders are weighing up the value of the assets they'll also be looking at the potential risk liabilities.

On that side of the ledger you have an OSH investigation. If PRC are prosecuted and found guilty and negligent to boot the fine is likely to be a record for NZ - in the millions, subject to ability to pay. PRC's insurance may pay for some of the fine to go to the deceased families.

You've also got the DOC land remediation issues. If the mine is closed someone has to foot the bill for remediating the land. Will the bonds cover the costs? If not will this dip into the insurances. There's also a presumption that PRC and the recievers are continuing to pay DOC the $1.4m access fee.

It may be that the Inquiry and the OSH investigation find enough evidence for the insurers to back out of some of their obligations. Hard to tell without knowing the details of the insurance.

I'm also assuming PRC have pretty much no cash left. They've paid out the $3m to the preferential creditors and $1.2m to Solid Energy (plus presumably got some cash in from the sale of the coal) but they' got to be burning cash still at the moment. Again how much will the insurers pay and how much is from the anticipated sale of the assets.

If PRC's insures are as toey as Christchurch earthquake victims (and I've no reason to doubt they aren't) the insurance issues will take a long time to resolve and this will inevitably delay the transfer of ownership.

[tony64peter]

BTU has applied for an exploration permit near Mokihinui. http://westportnews.co.nz/friday.pdf. They are spreading themselves around. Although they have said otherwise I wonder if Pike is on their radar?

[Monkey Poms]

My opinion is that opencasting is a red herring re the residual value of PRC. For geological, environmental & engineering logistics reasons opencasting of Pike is unlikely to ever happen. I've been there & walked much of the terrain, talked with a geologist & engineer who have worked on the Pike project but not as Pike staffers.
Their opinion is that Solid Energy have the best credentials to mine Pike. (with all their local experience at Spring Creek etc) but they would likely look for an equity partner to fund the development. Not having Solid Energy involved could mean another debacle if a company like PRC with an inadequate geological & mining understanding of local conditions got to tackle the job alone.

Hi glennj. Whilst you walked the terrain above Pike, did you ever come across a deep seam coal outcrop where the weather over the years had exposed the seam of coal? I understand that the area around it is only 1mtr deep.
It must be an impressive and exciting sight to see. ( if, like me, you get your kicks out of watching coal - maybe I should get out more )!

Monkey Poms

[glennj]

Hi guys, I'm back after a few days in the hills including time in the Paparoa & Victoria Ranges & see a couple of questions here for me. Re the opinion of why myself & some people of I've talked to think Pike opencasting is unlikely; Once again terrain, geology & environmental constraints. I'd say that Pike is a tougher terrain proposition than Roa & I see someone has pointed out that Roa isn't all opencast. Remember that most of the Pike coal is under a National Park and Roa is not. IMHO getting resource consents approved to opencast Pike is highly unlikely.

Monkey Poms I've seen numerous coal seams exposed near the surface and in cliff faces in the southern Paparoas & in parts of the Victoria Ranges (Reefton area) Also plenty of signs of old timers prospecting & mining.

[Monkey Poms]

Trying to figure out how the receiver managed to persuade the unsecured creditors to
drop their action to call in the liquidator.

No mention of the insurance claim payment as yet.

Solid Energy rather than go through the courts, they may have decided Pike have a case
and Devious Don decided to pay the receiver's claim in full.

Funds must have come from somewhere, what do you think.

Monkey Poms.

[digger]

Trying to figure out how the receiver managed to persuade the unsecured creditors to
drop their action to call in the liquidator.




Solid Energy rather than go through the courts, they may have decided Pike have a case
and Devious Don decided to pay the receiver's claim in full.

Funds must have come from somewhere, what do you think.

Monkey Poms.

This info is new to me.MP where did you get it from.Are some funds now available to the receiver that were not there yesterday?

[minimoke]

This info is new to me.MP where did you get it from.Are some funds now available to the receiver that were not there yesterday?It looks like there are less funds than thought. Claims are now at $119.9m while the fund for paying outstanding creditors has dropped from $11.3 to $4.8m.

Secured creditors are now at $75.085m (up from $74.96m)
PMSI Creditors up to $10.58m (up from $399K - leased underground machinery has come into the books)
Unsecured creditors up to $34.2m (up from $31.9m)

Message not quite so negative for unsecured creditors this time: "As at the date of this report, the amounts (if any) likely to be available for payment to creditors (other than the creditors in whose interest the Receivers were appointed and preferential creditors) is uncertain. This amount (if any) is largely dependent on the final outcome of the sales process and insurance claims referred to above". Last time round it seemed pretty certain there was no money for the Unsecureds. Silence on the insurances - so perhaps that is where it is coming from.

[LIO]

Hi Mimimoke, you mention a report from the receivers. Can you please tell us where we can access this report ?

[Xerof]

Try the Companies Office website under Pike River

[minimoke]

Hi Mimimoke, you mention a report from the receivers. Can you please tell us where we can access this report ?Or the PWC website

[Mr Tommy]

Some news on PIke. The sale was originally hoped by end of August, now theyre saying end of year.


He said indicative bids for the West Coast mine had been whittled down to "a number" of serious contenders and site visits had been arranged.
He would not give details of who was still in the running but Solid Energy has publicly declared its interest in the mine and a Chinese company is also understood to be providing a binding bid.
"The process is making good progress, there are a number of competing bidders which we find encouraging and it's helpful at the same time this mine stabilisation is almost completed."
Pike River's receivers said yesterday they hoped to have a deal done by the end of the year.
"A number of the bidders are foreign," said Salisbury.
"I would expect the final negotiation of some of the contract terms may take a little while - there are a number of sensitivities, commercial and otherwise."
The mine had insurance with an upper ceiling of $100 million and there was now good progress being made on processing the claim.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10747245


Also heres the receivers report they released last week.
http://www.pwc.com/nz/en/pike-river-coal/pike-river-coal-limited-six-monthly-report-to-13-june-2011.pdf

[minimoke]

I see btu has got permission to mine doc land on the denniston and its open cast

[iceman]

I think this is a positive development. DS says there are a number "of foreign bidders" and "number of sensitivities, commercial and otherwise". It would have been very difficult politically for the Government to OK (they need to OK the transfer of the licence) a sale to a Chinese company for example or to make any alterations/relaxations of the environmental conditions on the licence, 1-2 months out from an election.
Changing the date to end of year (i.e. after the elections) can only be a positive for those of us wanting to see maximum value realised from this sale.


Some news on PIke. The sale was originally hoped by end of August, now theyre saying end of year.


He said indicative bids for the West Coast mine had been whittled down to "a number" of serious contenders and site visits had been arranged.
He would not give details of who was still in the running but Solid Energy has publicly declared its interest in the mine and a Chinese company is also understood to be providing a binding bid.
"The process is making good progress, there are a number of competing bidders which we find encouraging and it's helpful at the same time this mine stabilisation is almost completed."
Pike River's receivers said yesterday they hoped to have a deal done by the end of the year.
"A number of the bidders are foreign," said Salisbury.
"I would expect the final negotiation of some of the contract terms may take a little while - there are a number of sensitivities, commercial and otherwise."
The mine had insurance with an upper ceiling of $100 million and there was now good progress being made on processing the claim.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10747245


Also heres the receivers report they released last week.
http://www.pwc.com/nz/en/pike-river-coal/pike-river-coal-limited-six-monthly-report-to-13-june-2011.pdf

[digger]

I think this is a positive development. DS says there are a number "of foreign bidders" and "number of sensitivities, commercial and otherwise". It would have been very difficult politically for the Government to OK (they need to OK the transfer of the licence) a sale to a Chinese company for example or to make any alterations/relaxations of the environmental conditions on the licence, 1-2 months out from an election.
Changing the date to end of year (i.e. after the elections) can only be a positive for those of us wanting to see maximum value realised from this sale.


Your on to it Iceman.In fact i spoke to the waikato national representative some months back and he said with a wink and a nod to wait until the election is behind us.Then would not comment further. So it is now very positive news that it has been official put back until the year end.

[Mr Tommy]

Changing the date to end of year (i.e. after the elections) can only be a positive for those of us wanting to see maximum value realised from this sale.

And I bet the receivers are happy too, they billed $967,261 for the 6 months to June, so they will be happy to drag it on for another 6 months to December.

[J R Ewing]

Even after the election, things will get very uncomfortable for the government if they want to start open cast mining in National Parks.

[neopoleII]

""they want to start open cast mining in National Parks.""
what do you mean by START?

they been mining in nation parks for a long time

[Monkey Poms]

""they want to start open cast mining in National Parks.""
what do you mean by START?

they been mining in nation parks for a long time

Well done Neapole11, you have a way with words, it took me six months and pages & pages of scroll to say
the same thing.

Monkey Poms.

[Mr Tommy]

A chinese company is interested in Pike, they have a lot of experience it seems:

China's mines are notoriously deadly, although safety improvements have cut annual fatalities by about one-third from a high of 6995 in 2002. That improvement has come despite a tripling in the output of coal used to generate most of China's electrical power.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/5533326/22-Chinese-miners-rescued-after-seven-days-trapped

[blockhead]

Not really a good taste post Mr Tom, I assume you were being cynical ?

[Mr Tommy]

Not really a good taste post Mr Tom, I assume you were being cynical ?

Yes sorry, the chinese figures are pretty shocking.

[J R Ewing]

Well done Neapole11, you have a way with words, it took me six months and pages & pages of scroll to say
the same thing.

Monkey Poms.

Perhaps you might like to list all the open cast coal mines currently mining in NZ National Parks? That shouldn't take too many words.

[minimoke]

""they want to start open cast mining in National Parks.""
what do you mean by START?

they been mining in nation parks for a long time
By "start" I think it is meant the start of new operations - not continuing existing operations. Despite Monkey Poms 6 months of trying and pages and pages of scroll there is one obstacle. And thats the Crown Minerals Act. In particular S61 a (1a) which relates to access to minerals on crown land. There are some exceptions - like stripping of the surface to less than 16sqm or emergency shafts. This section applies to "Schedule 4" land which is all land within a national park and administered under the national parks act.

The National Govt has already waved the prospect of amendments to Schedule 4 which would allow the mining of national parks. The greenies put up a very short campaign and National backed away from this idea faster than an ex-politicians appointment to a quango.

In case you missed the news today Labour is down in the polls and the Green Party is now up to 11%. If you really think there is a chance of Pike being open cast I can get my hands on some ALF shares which will see you rolling in riches quicker than the first sod turned on Paparoa.

[neopoleII]

of an application by Buller Coal Limited for resource consents for the Denniston Plateau Escarpment Mine Project.
heres one that just got granted 26 august 2011.
i could list more but my time is valuable too.
im sure they are listed on this thread.
here is the 115 page report granting the application to open cast mine..... lots of details about snails as well.
http://www.wcrc.govt.nz/escarpment/Decision/BCL%20Final%20Decision%2026%20Aug.pdf

[minimoke]

of an application by Buller Coal Limited for resource consents for the Denniston Plateau Escarpment Mine Project.
heres one that just got granted 26 august 2011.
i could list more but my time is valuable too.
im sure they are listed on this thread.
here is the 115 page report granting the application to open cast mine..... lots of details about snails as well.
http://www.wcrc.govt.nz/escarpment/Decision/BCL Final Decision 26 Aug.pdf
I stand to be corrected but I don't think this is land in a National Park. Conservation land, maybe; big snails, maybe, National Park - No!

[iceman]

Hi minimoke,
I think you have pointed out the real issue here which is Schedule 4. A lot of the land included in Schedule 4 has little or no conservation value in its current state and despite the Greens being up in polls and quite likely getting more votes than before, I think an increasing percentage of voters (the silent majority) would be quite keen on assessing whether all the current land should be National Parks or not. If we are not protecting anything special, what is the point in calling those areas National Parks ! I have hope that the statement from the new Energy Minister a couple of days ago is indicating they will take this issue up again after Brownlee's abyssmal failure last year and possibly restrict National Parks to land which has some notable conservation values.


By "start" I think it is meant the start of new operations - not continuing existing operations. Despite Monkey Poms 6 months of trying and pages and pages of scroll there is one obstacle. And thats the Crown Minerals Act. In particular S61 a (1a) which relates to access to minerals on crown land. There are some exceptions - like stripping of the surface to less than 16sqm or emergency shafts. This section applies to "Schedule 4" land which is all land within a national park and administered under the national parks act.

The National Govt has already waved the prospect of amendments to Schedule 4 which would allow the mining of national parks. The greenies put up a very short campaign and National backed away from this idea faster than an ex-politicians appointment to a quango.

In case you missed the news today Labour is down in the polls and the Green Party is now up to 11%. If you really think there is a chance of Pike being open cast I can get my hands on some ALF shares which will see you rolling in riches quicker than the first sod turned on Paparoa.

[minimoke]

Well done Neapole11, you have a way with words, it took me six months and pages & pages of scroll to say
the same thing.

Monkey Poms.
And that definitive list of open cast mines in national parks is.............

[minimoke]

Hi minimoke,
I think you have pointed out the real issue here which is Schedule 4. Actually there are two issues. The first is Pike River being open cast in a national park. I have seen nothing to move me from the view that is an option that will not happen. Paparoa is a National Park - it simply will not be allowed to be dug up for Pike. End of story - move on. At the very best anyone could hope for is open cast outside the national park boundary and I have not seen anything to suggest this is economically viable - greeenie arguments aside.

The other issue is the extraction of resources on schedule four conservation land. 40% of our resource is on Schedule four land. Schedule four land is just 13% of our land area. There is some appetite for extraction to happen but whether National have the balls to do it I don't know. I suspect not - but if I was forced to a view I'd say they don't - what you are hearing is political rhetoric in the lead up to an election to placate the national voters. Case in point - look at the fuss developing over taking lignite from southland. That's essentially just taking the top off some dairy land and converting it back to pasture a wee while later.

National did flag opening up parts of the Inangahua Sector of the Paparoa National Park, so it could be dug up. Rosemont, Pell Creek, Whitecliffs and Perserverance have been tagged. National scuttled away really fast when this prospect was raised. So perhaps, at best, we can we can expect the development of low value conservation land - the high value land will remain out of bounds. The area around Pike has already been identified as Schedule Four land where no change is being considered. Look a little west and no change is being considered at this stage.

If National felt, politically they coudl get away with opening up low value land like Pell Creek they would. When National were polling well and the Greens were in the doldrums National decided this was a step too far.

So what do we think it will take to get National to open Pell Creek up now that the Greens are polling over 10%? A hell of a lot more than when they first rased the idea, thats what!

Now if you get over the Pell Creek level hurdle what do you think it will take for them to open up land that "isn't being considered at this stage" for opening up.

Get past that hurdle what do you think it will take for them to open up land "which is not being considered" for scheduler four removal.

In all the pages of threads Monkey Poms has waded through on Pike I'm sure there has been nothing to give a clue as to how these hurdles will be overcome.


A lot of the land included in Schedule 4 has little or no conservation value in its current state and despite the Greens being up in polls and quite likely getting more votes than before, I think an increasing percentage of voters (the silent majority) would be quite keen on assessing whether all the current land should be National Parks or not.
The higher the Green poll and vote the less chance of any change to schedule four land. The poll (and I take polls with a grain of salt) indicate an increasing % of voters actually are green.

If we are not protecting anything special, what is the point in calling those areas National Parks ! But thats the point - they were/are special. That's why they are listed as Scedule four.

I have hope that the statement from the new Energy Minister a couple of days ago is indicating they will take this issue up again after Brownlee's abyssmal failure last year and possibly restrict National Parks to land which has some notable conservation values.

And whose the acting Energy Minister? Hekia Parata thats who.
What makes up the DOC estate. Land that has high conservation, recreational and cultural significance!

Anyone see any issue with the new Minister opening up more land? If not you need a lump of coal across the back of your head to open your eyes.

[pietrade]

Well put. Nothing like a clearly-stated taste of reality to sort thru the muddled (and wishful) thinking.

[minimoke]

The greenies put up a very short campaign and National backed away from this idea faster than an ex-politicians appointment to a quango.

Off topic I know but I love the fact Chris Carter (ex Minister of Conservation and he who used his Ministerial credit card to buy personal items and went on to try to roll Goff out of Labour) has been appointed to an anti-corruption role in Kabul, Afghanistan. The question will be does he keep his MP's salary as well as being paid by the UN?

Get your head around this and it will help to understand the chances of Pike turning into opencast.