PRC Pike River Coal

[Casa del Energia]

No Pike River sale this side of Christmas, receiver says ....

..... things. over 100milllion and overseas buyer

Good point - I take heart from that, "over 100million" is a very comforting number.

[gNZ]

Good point - I take heart from that, "over 100million" is a very comforting number.

maybe not :(
in post 8978 Mr Thommy noted:
"From LINZ website
Overseas investors or associates of overseas investors may need to apply to the Overseas Investment Office (OIO) for consent if they plan to acquire:
•sensitive land or an interest in sensitive land (eg by buying shares in a company that owns sensitive land), or
•business assets worth more than $100 million, or
•fishing quota or an interest in fishing quota. "

[edit] although "sensitive land" is pretty unambiguous; there are people that would argue that almost any square meter of the country falls into this criteria

[Baddarcy]

maybe not :(
in post 8978 Mr Thommy noted:
"From LINZ website
Overseas investors or associates of overseas investors may need to apply to the Overseas Investment Office (OIO) for consent if they plan to acquire:
•sensitive land or an interest in sensitive land (eg by buying shares in a company that owns sensitive land), or
•business assets worth more than $100 million, or
•fishing quota or an interest in fishing quota. "

[edit] although "sensitive land" is pretty unambiguous; there are people that would argue that almost any square meter of the country falls into this criteria

Im fairly sure that PRC does not own any land, the rail facility land is leased and im fairly sure the mine is all on doc land, so i think the $100m is the most likely scenario.

[iceman]

Im fairly sure that PRC does not own any land, the rail facility land is leased and im fairly sure the mine is all on doc land, so i think the $100m is the most likely scenario.



I'm pretty sure they haven't got any fishing quota either Baddarcy so $ 100m is a fair bet for the OIO
approval. I would be blimmin disappointed if it is not closer to $200m than $100m :t_up:

[Jackson]

Solid Energy out of the running! Two bidders left, both foreign. Hopefully a signal that purchase price being negotiated is too high for SEs joint bid!

[Sideshow Bob]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/6154340/Solid-Energy-misses-out-on-Pike-mine

State-owned enterprise Solid Energy is officially out of the running to buy Pike River Coal, meaning its new owner will be from overseas.

At least two international buyers are in talks with Pike River receivers to buy the underground coal mine where 29 workers were killed in an explosion in November last year.

Offers to buy Pike River's assets, including the mine, closed in October. Solid Energy, which reported a net $87.2 million profit for the year to June 30, was a keen bidder early in the process.

It said it was committed to recovering the bodies of the men and repaying local West Coast creditors, "if possible".

But PricewaterhouseCoopers receiver John Fisk yesterday said although it would not be till at least the end of January before a buyer was confirmed, the only bids left on the table were from overseas entities.

"It is all overseas parties that are still involved in the process," Fisk said.

"It's commercially sensitive at the moment. All I can say is there's more than one [bid in negotiation]."

Solid Energy has a two-year contract to sub-lease the coal stockpile and rail load-out facility at Ikamatua that Pike River spent $10m developing on the South Island's West Coast.

Solid Energy chief operating officer Barry Bragg said in October that it hoped to push the lease out to 25 years.

The office of State-owned Enterprises Minister Tony Ryall referred BusinessDay back to Solid Energy for comments on its failed bid for Pike River's assets, but all Solid Energy staff were celebrating at their company Christmas party when Fairfax phoned yesterday and nobody from the business could comment.

A minimum price of $50m will need to be paid for the mine to meet outstanding bills to creditors, including $38m owed to New Zealand Oil & Gas. The Pike River coal mine was valued at about $400m before the fatal blast.

Fisk could not say if the prices offered were above the $50m mark, again citing commercial sensitivity.

"I don't want to go into numbers at the moment," Fisk said. "We're working to other party timetables to a certain extent, so it's difficult for me to say [when a sale will go through].

"It will obviously be next year now, but when next year I couldn't be definitive. Late January, I suspect, will probably be the earliest."

Fisk expected the sale of Pike River would include establishing a trust to oversee efforts to recover any remains of the men who died, but advised their families there were no guarantees about re-entering the mine or how long it would take.

"Everyone involved understands how anxious the families are to recover their loved ones, but this will be an extremely complex task and safety is paramount," Fisk said.

[Baddarcy]

Solid Energy out of the running! Two bidders left, both foreign. Hopefully a signal that purchase price being negotiated is too high for SEs joint bid!

Yes i'm with you on that "Jackson" i thought the same thing when i read it, surely the only thing that would knock out SE and their Chinese friends would have been the cost. Can't think of any other reason? Especially after all the effort they went to, to devalue pike assets with their jaw boning and lease stealing.

Gut feeling is that while this is bad news for SE, it must be good news for shareholders.

Hope Mrs Jackson and Jackson Jnr are well.

[Sideshow Bob]

Looks like the saga has some time to run yet. Lets hope the recovery work can have some success, for the families sake.

[zacman]

I wouldn't count on $100 million.

OIO approval would be required even if they dont offer $100 million. Clearly its sensitive land and although they wont be buying the land, to lease is surely just as bad.

If the coal was valued at $400 mil before the buyers have some significant cost before they start mining. From memory the insurance coy paid out $80 to $100 mil. A lot of that must relate to damage sustained in the various explosions that must be repaired. There is also further capital that must be built that the old management skimped on .... new ventilation shaft, a new escape route and so on. So maybe $100 mil of capital works.

$100 plus $100 equals 50% of the coal value .... not such a great return when spread over 10 or 20 years.

And then we have risk factor ...

I dont think a buyer will be paying $100 mil.

zacman

[Ian]

The coal wasn't valued at $400million the company was. That was with also with 100+million of Debt.

So that would put the value of the company pre explosion (without debt which is what the new owner will be buying) at +500million. So take a a few hundred millioin of that for repairs, required improvents, risk and down time until production and you then get the value they might pay for it.

Ian





I wouldn't count on $100 million.

OIO approval would be required even if they dont offer $100 million. Clearly its sensitive land and although they wont be buying the land, to lease is surely just as bad.

If the coal was valued at $400 mil before the buyers have some significant cost before they start mining. From memory the insurance coy paid out $80 to $100 mil. A lot of that must relate to damage sustained in the various explosions that must be repaired. There is also further capital that must be built that the old management skimped on .... new ventilation shaft, a new escape route and so on. So maybe $100 mil of capital works.

$100 plus $100 equals 50% of the coal value .... not such a great return when spread over 10 or 20 years.

And then we have risk factor ...

I dont think a buyer will be paying $100 mil.

zacman

[Ian]

Is the actual coal worth $4 billion

[Baddarcy]

I wouldn't count on $100 million.

OIO approval would be required even if they dont offer $100 million. Clearly its sensitive land and although they wont be buying the land, to lease is surely just as bad.

If the coal was valued at $400 mil before the buyers have some significant cost before they start mining. From memory the insurance coy paid out $80 to $100 mil. A lot of that must relate to damage sustained in the various explosions that must be repaired. There is also further capital that must be built that the old management skimped on .... new ventilation shaft, a new escape route and so on. So maybe $100 mil of capital works.

$100 plus $100 equals 50% of the coal value .... not such a great return when spread over 10 or 20 years.

And then we have risk factor ...

I dont think a buyer will be paying $100 mil.

zacman

Might be worth your while going away and doing some research before posting, would save you looking silly...

Where on earth did you get your figure of the coal being worth $400m from? There is 50m tonnes of coal valued at $USD250 with an 0.80 exchange rate = $15.6b or if you take just the coal Pike was going to mine of 18m at $USD250 per tonne with the same exchange rate of 0.80 = $5.6b

Still think someone won't pay more than $100 for it?

[Monkey Poms]

Might be worth your while going away and doing some research before posting, would save you looking silly...

Where on earth did you get your figure of the coal being worth $400m from? There is 50m tonnes of coal valued at $USD250 with an 0.80 exchange rate = $15.6b or if you take just the coal Pike was going to mine of 18m at $USD250 per tonne with the same exchange rate of 0.80 = $5.6b



Still think someone won't pay more than $100 for it?

Baddarcy I talked to a geologist who had worked on the Pike project. His estimate of the coal tonnage was
top seam 63million tons of coal, bottom seam 18million tons of coal estimated on the small number of boreholes
drilled (the only way to accurately estimate the tonnage of the bottom seam coal is to drill, it could possibly be 18m x 2 or 3 ? )

A question for you guys, as I don't know the taxation rules in your part of the world.
Would an Australian buyer of Pike be allowed to claim against his tax bill all or a percentage of the purchase price paid in year one? Baddarcy you must have paid attention to your maths teacher in school. Work out the value of coal, should the new owner of Pike obtain permission to opencast 75% of the 63m top seam of coal.

MP.

[iceman]

The Receiver is not really "talking up" the price with these comments copied from the Stuff website !! :

Receivers for Pike River coal mine are adamant the mine remains unsafe to recover the bodies of 29 men killed in a fatal explosion13 months ago, despite claims to the contrary.

West Coast-based Green Party MP Kevin Hague has been reported as saying mining sources had indicated that the mine's environment was inert and safe for the body retrieval.

However, receiver John Fisk, of PricewaterhouseCoopers, said yesterday that high gas levels in the mine's 2.4-kilometre tunnel and main working section made it potentially lethal, despite being inert.

Reclamation of the tunnel was hoped to be completed by the end of February but it could be several years before the men's bodies were recovered, if at all, he said.

The tunnel was full of nitrogen and other toxic gases, while the mine's main working part was full of methane.

The mine's statutory mine manager, Steve Ellis, was unwavering in his refusal to allow Mines Rescue Service or others to walk down the tunnel in respirators to the rockfall until it was reventilated. "He doesn't want to put people's lives at risk when there is a safer option, even if it takes longer," Mr Fisk said.

Delays had struck efforts to reclaim the tunnel, which was the first step towards body recovery.

A huge rockfall after the series of explosions last year blocked the tunnel's end, preventing entry into the mine's working part, where most, if not all, the men's bodies are entombed. "It isn't a body recovery exercise," Mr Fisk said.

However, some Pike families believed some men could have died while fleeing the mine and their bodies could be found when the tunnel was reclaimed.

A borehole was being drilled into the tunnel, further out from the rockfall, and foam would be pumped down to remotely seal it, which would allow the tunnel to be reventilated.

Once that was completed, Mr Fisk said the next step would be considering how to safely enter the main working area to retrieve the men's remains.

"Until you've got closer to the rockfall, it's very difficult to come up with anything more than concepts of how you will get into the mine."

It would be up to the mine's new owners to work out a body recovery plan, which would be part of the sale agreement to use "best endeavours" to retrieve the bodies.

"We expect the purchaser to prepare a detailed plan and timetable, use best endeavours to carry out body recovery and to have set aside funds to be used for that purpose."

The likely option would involve tunnelling around the rockfall and drilling or blasting into the main working area.

Ad Feedback Mr Fisk said that was technically difficult, time-consuming and very dangerous. If oxygen mixed with methane in the mine and reached explosive levels, all it needed was an ignition source to cause a huge explosion.

The mine's sale had also struck delays and would not happen until next year, despite Mr Fisk earlier hoping a sale agreement would be signed by Christmas.

Bernie Monk, a spokesman for some of the Pike families, said the engineer employed by the families was happy with the tunnel reclamation plans. However, he believed body recovery would be several years away with no plans yet in place.

[fabs]

So all this points to a slow and probably very costly exercise.
Which brings me to the point I made quite some time ago.
Why are some people thinking that the mine should be worth more in its present state than 18 months ago when a 51% control of the company could have been possibly acquired for anything between 150-250 mil. still intact and producing.
Unless the Gvt. quite unlikely, has given some assurances the general public is not privy too to a party like S/E or others, that opencast will be an option, big question mark there.
So just total up the cost with OSH and DOC throwing the book on this project, plus monies tied up for years to profitable production, plus uncertain transport facilities also cost and time consuming.
One thing is for sure this will be the costliest but on the plus side safest mine in NZ at the end of it, that maybe be the only certainty in all this.
Here is also hoping that this will not also turn to custard.

[Jackson]

Because 18 months ago you would be buying into a going concern with the majority of the coal contracted for sale so youd effectively only invest if you thought PRC was a well run company with long term growth potential and good dividend returns. If you were only after the coal, it wouldnt have been a good buy, even with 51% (which isnt as simple as just buying up shares with the takeover code in place) you'd still need to pay market rates for any coal you could sell to yourself to keep shareholders happy. Now ALL the coal is yours! With total ownership, you effectively pay nothing for the coal other than cost of sales and delivery. Add to this that 18 months ago it was Pike Who? in international terms. This tragedy put it on the map and vultures from all over the world came for a sniff of the carcass. Call me optimistic but i cant see this asset going for less than $185 mill. If SE have left the hunt, it is either very bad news (they dont think it is mineable) or they have been outgunned by the 2 remaining buyers... My pick is it is destined for India with some local NZOG representation :-)

[Monkey Poms]

http://greystar.co.nz/content/aust-mining-experts-resume-pike-seal

It should not be too long now before the mine manager has access to the full length of the tunnel.

MP

[Baddarcy]

Found the below on a Chinese news site,
打造“走出去”首选品牌

针对目前境外银行信贷紧缩给“走出去”企业带来的融资难问题，
中国银行通过全球统一授信额度、内保外贷等产品为优质企业的海外
融资需求提供担保。为了支持某煤业集团“走出去”战略，中行陕西
分行先后为其阿根廷火地岛项目、收购新西兰Pike River Coal Limi
nted项目和蒙古南戈壁资源公司项目出具合计100亿元的贷款承诺函。
中行利用分布广泛的海外分支机构，成功办理陕西省首笔跨境贸易人
民币结算业务，目前业务量已突破4亿元，遥遥领先于同业。
面对当前全球经济金融新形势，中行将以质量与效益为中心，充
分发挥自身贸易金融服务在品牌、渠道、产品、技术等方面的优势，
加大创新力度，致力成为“全球最佳贸易金融服务银行”，为陕西企
业“走出去”提供强有力的支持。

i can't read it ... but google translated it as.... i bolded the bit that caught my attention :-)

Probably BS but hey should get you talking :-)


Create a "going out" preferred brand

Foreign banks for the current credit crunch to "go out" the problem of financing enterprises,
Bank of China through a global unified line of credit, loans and other products within the warranty for the quality overseas enterprises
Financing needs to provide security. Coal Industry Group to support a "going out" strategy, the Bank of China Shaanxi
Branch has its Argentine Tierra del Fuego project, the acquisition of New Zealand's Pike River Coal Limi
nted the project and the project issued by the South Gobi Resources Total 100 million loan commitment letter. Widespread use of the Bank of China overseas branches, the success of the first pen for cross-border trade in Shaanxi Province were
RMB settlement business, the current business volume has exceeded 400 billion yuan, far ahead of the industry.
The new face of the current global economic and financial situation, the Bank of China will be the quality and efficiency, fully
Play their trade in financial services sub-brand, channel, product, technology and other advantages,
Strengthening innovation, to become "the world's best financial services trade bank" for enterprises in Shaanxi
Industry "going out" to provide strong support.

[bung5]

nice find baddarcy! how did you find that?!?

[Baddarcy]

nice find baddarcy! how did you find that?!?

Just google, set the filters to news in the last 24 hours. I normally ignore the foreign language sites, but was intrigued to what the Chinese were saying about Pike....

Full link if your really keen :-)

http://www.sxdaily.com.cn/data/jjxw/20120117_86437920_4.htm

[Bixbite]

Found the below on a Chinese news site,
打造“走出去”首选品牌

收购新西兰Pike River Coal Limi
nted项目和蒙古南戈壁资源公司项目出具合计100亿元的贷款承诺函。
中行利用分布广泛的海外分支机构，成功办理陕西省首笔跨境贸易人
民币结算业务，目前业务量已突破4亿元，遥遥领先于同业。
.................................................. ..

i can't read it ... but google translated it as.... i bolded the bit that caught my attention :-)

Probably BS but hey should get you talking :-)

..............................

Total 100 million loan commitment letter.[/B] Widespread use of the Bank of China overseas branches, the success of the first pen for cross-border trade in Shaanxi Province were
RMB settlement business, the current business volume has exceeded 400 billion yuan, far ahead of the industry.

.......................


Strengthening innovation, to become "the world's best financial services trade bank" for enterprises in Shaanxi
Industry "going out" to provide strong support.


100亿元 is 10 billions (not 100 millions)


4亿元 is 400 millions (not 400 billions)

Cheers
Bixbite

[dsurf]

1 billion for $4billion of coal and more importantly the opportunity to develop other mines once they have retrieved the bodies & got the mine working. Maybe I under-predicted the sale price at 500mill. LOL

[bung5]

hmmm how did you get 1billion sale price from that?

[kiwitrev]

As they say in the TV commercial: You're dreaming Jonesy. No disrespect dsurf. LOL

[neopoleII]

it would seem the cat is out of the bag, yet no official comments or statements.
however the volume of nzo is picking up.
is this insider trading, or those in the know collecting before an official announcement?
is this thread monitored by officials?
time will tell if that Chinese page is true or not.

[Jackson]

Good spot Bad Darcy.
Had a mate in Hong Kong analyze for me and the article only refers to the fact that BOC is doing a credit memorandum totalling $10B Yuan ($10,000,000,000) for a Chinese Gas/Energy company to enable them to purchase three new projects, one of which is Pike River Coal. So it is not at formal Offer Letter and acceptance stage yet from the sounds of it. Also the amount specifically for Pike River is not detailed. What we know is this company is serious about bying Pike and has a $10 billion war chest. Hopefully the other 2 projects are only worth $9 Billion :)

[Monkey Poms]

Good spot Bad Darcy.
Had a mate in Hong Kong analyze for me and the article only refers to the fact that BOC is doing a credit memorandum totalling $10B Yuan ($10,000,000,000) for a Chinese Gas/Energy company to enable them to purchase three new projects, one of which is Pike River Coal. So it is not at formal Offer Letter and acceptance stage yet from the sounds of it. Also the amount specifically for Pike River is not detailed. What we know is this company is serious about bying Pike and has a $10 billion war chest. Hopefully the other 2 projects are only worth $9 Billion :)

Jackson, it may not be beyond the realms of possibility. The Chinese Gas/Energy company may also acquire NZOG,they are making good profits, NZO shares look undervalued at the moment.

MP.

[fabs]

Looks like we are entering the FLYING PIGS season again?

[Monkey Poms]

Looks like we are entering the FLYING PIGS season again?

You could be right Fabs,I may be spending too much time on the beach under the NZ sun.
On the other hand,have you seen the high price of oil lately? Apparently the Saudis want to keep
it that way.

MP

[fabs]

Yes M/P
I personally think uncertainty regarding O/P as the threat of hell breaking out of either US,Israel or both bombing the hell out of Iran increases, for supposedly constructing a nuclear device.
They have been accusing them of just doing such for the last 10 years, squeezing them into a corner with increasing harsher sanctions where Iran may consider closing the Strait of Hormuz.
That evil Iranian regime is horrors of horrors also selling oil to China, Russia and others independent of OPEC & US control [ A serious crime against humanity if there ever was one ].
They according to the former deserve to be destroyed if they are not toeing the line, as to the consequences of such a scenario, draw your own conclusions regarding O/P.

[skid]

yes,the usa does have a history of trashing small countries that dont play by the rules that they impose--but China and Russia may be to big for even the neighborhood bully to push around. China seems to be one of the few powers keeping the USA in check ATM,both economically and politically.

[digger]

Yes M/P
I personally think uncertainty regarding O/P as the threat of hell breaking out of either US,Israel or both bombing the hell out of Iran increases, for supposedly constructing a nuclear device.
They have been accusing them of just doing such for the last 10 years, squeezing them into a corner with increasing harsher sanctions where Iran may consider closing the Strait of Hormuz.
That evil Iranian regime is horrors of horrors also selling oil to China, Russia and others independent of OPEC & US control [ A serious crime against humanity if there ever was one ].
They according to the former deserve to be destroyed if they are not toeing the line, as to the consequences of such a scenario, draw your own conclusions regarding O/P.

Actually i do not think it is really about Iran getting the bomb but instead about Iran dareing to trade oil without using the US dollar.Remember the uS has had it pretty much its own way for the last half ceutury and does not want the party to end.This is where i think the problem is but it is not likely any time soon to hit the front pages as an official US statement.

[GTM 3442]

yes,the usa does have a history of trashing small countries that dont play by the rules that they impose--but China and Russia may be to big for even the neighborhood bully to push around. China seems to be one of the few powers keeping the USA in check ATM,both economically and politically.

The US has a long history of trashing small countries that can't hit back.

[kiwitrev]

I think the last few posters have lost direction. I might be mistaken but I thought this was a PRC site, not a 'what's wrong with the world' site. Let's get it back on track. There are other forums for those discussions.

[digger]

I think the last few posters have lost direction. I might be mistaken but I thought this was a PRC site, not a 'what's wrong with the world' site. Let's get it back on track. There are other forums for those discussions.

Agree ,things went off on a tangent a bit. Back to coal.
Back to some news on the recovery of bodies and back to waiting for news on the sale process.

[Baddarcy]

Good spot Bad Darcy.
Had a mate in Hong Kong analyze for me and the article only refers to the fact that BOC is doing a credit memorandum totalling $10B Yuan ($10,000,000,000) for a Chinese Gas/Energy company to enable them to purchase three new projects, one of which is Pike River Coal. So it is not at formal Offer Letter and acceptance stage yet from the sounds of it. Also the amount specifically for Pike River is not detailed. What we know is this company is serious about bying Pike and has a $10 billion war chest. Hopefully the other 2 projects are only worth $9 Billion :)

Thanks Jackson, good idea on getting the coding nerds in HK to have a look at it !!

Well the RMB trades at about 6.3 at the moment to the USD so RMB 10b is about $USD1.5b. Personally wouldn't be too upset with a third of that :-)

It does make sense that the bidders would be required to provide letters of credit or the like to prove to the receivers of PRC that they have the money they are bidding.

[Monkey Poms]

Well the RMB trades at about 6.3 at the moment to the USD so RMB 10b is about $USD1.5b. Personally wouldn't be too upset with a third of that :-)
BADDARCY you are in danger of becoming a soft touch.Get a grip of yourself :-)

MP.

[Baddarcy]

Well the RMB trades at about 6.3 at the moment to the USD so RMB 10b is about $USD1.5b. Personally wouldn't be too upset with a third of that :-)
BADDARCY you are in danger of becoming a soft touch.Get a grip of yourself :-)

MP.

Yeah i know, i have been assuming i will get nothing back for so long i am finding the expectation of hopefully what will be the these last few months of my Pike River story getting the better of me :-) But i suppose given i was standing next to the hydrominer talking to the guy operating it exactly 4 days before it possibly (according to the royal commission) blew the mine up does that to you.

But being a sucker for good quality coal i am hoping for something back so i can pour it into bathurst up the road !!

[digger]

But being a sucker for good quality coal i am hoping for something back so i can pour it into bathurst up the road !!

You have made top quality comments lately Baddarcy,so do not blow it now. In short do not spend that money until it is in your hot little hands.

[Baddarcy]

You have made top quality comments lately Baddarcy,so do not blow it now. In short do not spend that money until it is in your hot little hands.

Good point noted digger :-)

Thou i have been keeping a watching eye on bathurst. Things seem to be progressing well for them, the only road block at present is a few challengers in the environment court which i can't see being any more than a speed bump, thou as i found out with PRC speed bumps can be quite big and frequent.

What has really caught my eye is i have noticed the big boys buying in (substantial shareholder notices), latest one credit suisse.

They seem to have the local community and the government onside too which always helps. They claim to be fully funded.......where have we heard that before???

Thoughts ??

[fabs]

Yes have my eye on them too for some time, good observation BADD

[Jackson]

BadDarcy I would be very surprised if your wife let you invest anywhere near a combustable resource ever again. Put your money back in Tech stocks and Retirement villages (oh wait, I recall some tech stocks blowing up as well). I also have those days where I'm so punch drunk with delays and bad news coming out of Pike that I resign myself to the fact that I'll be paying off the leverage on this investment for the next 30 years, but then I sit back take a deep breath and realise that there are people with deep pockets overseas, desperate for long term energy security and we might, might come out of this OK :-)

[Monkey Poms]

Baddarcy, hope you recover a good portion of your stake in Pike. All mining methods carry various degrees of risk.
Bathurst will need to carry more luck than we ever achieved at Pike, to go down 30 to 40 metres and opencast
old underground workings (where more than 50% of the coal could already have been mined)? Good coal though. Whatever they paid for the privilege to mine this site, maybe it will prove to be too much.
I am sure the old fox, Don Elder, S.E., would have in the past looked at the prospect and decided against it.
( if things do go wrong for Bathurst, Don will be there like a vulture to pick up the pieces ).

Maybe I'm living in cloud-cuckoo land, but I'm still hoping there's a watered down role for the present shareholders in Pike, which would involve partial opencast. ( Pike is the first share investment MP ever lost on ).

MP

[Baddarcy]

BadDarcy I would be very surprised if your wife let you invest anywhere near a combustable resource ever again.

You are right there, she doesn't even want me investing in shares let alone coal mines !!

Sounds like you might be in the same boat... thought you told me you were the king of your castle :-)



Put your money back in Tech stocks

Hmm how did you know.... currently its in SKC and TME at the moment, dividend season coming up.

[bung5]

GENERAL: NZO: PRCL impairment

NZOG (New Zealand Oil & Gas Ltd) advises that it expects to impair all of its
remaining investment in Pike River Coal Ltd (in Receivership) (PRCL) in its
half year accounts.

NZOG's financial statements for the six months ended 31 December 2011 will be
released on 22 February.

During the six month period, NZOG received a total of $41m from the PRCL
insurance settlement. NZOG also advanced $4.6m under a short term loan
agreement to the Receivers to fund both the ongoing mine stabilisation
efforts and the sales process.

PRCL unsecured debt has previously been fully impaired while the secured debt
has been carried in NZOG's accounts at full value. No value is assigned to
NZOG's shareholding in PRCL.

As part of preparing its half year accounts, NZOG has undertaken a further
review of the carrying value of its investments in PRCL. This has required an
assessment of the expected f
uture cash recovery from PRCL and the ongoing
cost of the receivership, which NZOG is funding.

The Receivers for PRCL have advised that there are now three potential
outcomes from the sales process they are undertaking - an outright purchase
of the mine; a structured deal with a smaller upfront payment and future
payments dependent on certain outcomes being achieved; and sale of the
removable assets only.

The first two scenarios are both expected by NZOG to be conditional, with the
structured option including milestone payments and a possible re-opening
success payment. Achievement of these milestones, undertaken by a purchaser
and conditional on the actions of various third parties, adds considerable
uncertainty in trying to predict the timing and degree of any further return
to NZOG.

Given the highly conditional nature of any further receipts and uncertainty
regarding timing, the NZOG Board expects to impair all of the remaining
secured PRCL debt.

The accounting impact of this w
ill be a net increase of just under $21m
between 30 June 2011 and 31 December 2011 in NZOG's impairment provision.
End CA:00218898 For:NZO Type:GENERAL Time:2012-01-26 16:23:13

[Baddarcy]

The Receivers for PRCL have advised that there are now three potential
outcomes from the sales process they are undertaking - an outright purchase
of the mine; a structured deal with a smaller upfront payment and future
payments dependent on certain outcomes being achieved; and sale of the
removable assets only.

Hmm doesn't really tell us much of anything really other than NZO doesn't know anything more than we do so they have to make an accounting entry in their 6 monthly accounts to assume the worst.

At least this news answers one question for me i think. I was wondering why NZO's share buyback that was proceeding every day stopped this week. Figured it was either all the holidays around the world this week or they knew something the market didn't and thus couldn't buy shares.

[zacman]

What are the Receiver's obligations to minor shareholders ?

It is hoped that at some stage there may be a residual value for shareholders. In normal circumstances the sale of a company's undertaking would require shareholder approval ... is that obligation lost because of the receivership or once (if ?) there appears to be a surplus, do we get a say ?

NOG appear to be in the loop ... there still have a debt owing ... but if that debt is cleared surely NOG is just like any other shareholder ... although a major one.

There appear to be different options being considered. It would be nice to think that decesions will not be made by NOG on our behalf.

zacman

[Xerof]

What are the Receiver's obligations to minor shareholders ?

None at all. If there is any surplus after secured and preferred creditors are completely paid out, the Receivers would appoint a liquidator, who would then pay any remaining unsecured creditors, and after thats done, the shareholders get whats left


That's the nature of being a shareholder - all the risk, all the upside, (post snouts in the trough), and all the downside (again, post snouts in the trough, if they can get away with it).

[winner69]

Interesting that they mentioned the third possible outcome ..."and sale of the removable assets only."

And todays paper mentions that a report says that recovering the bodies might only happen between mid 2015 and mid 2017
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/6329151/Pike-River-recovery-years-away

[Lizard]

Interesting that they mentioned the third possible outcome ..."and sale of the removable assets only."


Interesting that it remains an option, given Solid Energy earlier submitted an expression of interest, saying they believed they had the ability to mine the resource safely. Presumably, any bid on that basis would have been higher than one for removable assets only. Were the reasons they dropped out of negotiations ever released?

[LIO]

It's very curious..... "sale of removable assets only" ....... why did the receivers call for expressions of interest if they weren't sure they even had a mine to sell ?
Has some new information come to light ?

[iceman]

From Stuff today:
Pike River's fatal explosion has been blamed on a roof collapse expelling explosive gas around the mine, which was then ignited by a spark from the electrical system after water pumps were switched on.
Twenty-nine men died in the November 2010 West Coast coalmine blast.
The royal commission of inquiry into the disaster, which is tasked with determining the cause of the explosion, has resumed today, the first sitting for 2012.
Before starting this morning, chairman Justice Graham Panckhurst told media that a panel of five experts, most from overseas, had worked out the explosion's most likely cause.
They believed the mine's roof collapsed in the hydro-mining goaf, the void left behind after coal was extracted, pushing a large amount of methane into the mine.
Panckhurst said the experts believed the explosion was methane-based, possibly with a small contribution from coal dust.
That methane had to mix with air to reach an explosive range of 5 to 15 per cent, but needed an ignition source, which was most likely arcing from the mine's electrical system, he said.
The mine exploded soon after surface controller Daniel Duggan switched on the water pumps, which had been off for maintenance. He was in no way responsible for the explosion.
The mine had a ''variable speed drive'' that provided power to the high-pressure water pumps and moderated power supply, but arcing could occur if there were distortions in the electricity current.
Hydro-mining began at the mine about six weeks earlier, Panckhurst said.
Commission lawyer James Wilding today told the hearing the cause of the explosion would be a major focus of hearings for the rest of this week and next week.
He said it was possible the explosion's cause would never be known because no-one had been into the mine since the first blast on November 19, 2010.
Brett Murray, who headed the Labour Department's investigation into the tragedy, was first to take the witness stand this morning.
He said the investigation involved three main areas: assessing the adequacy of Pike River Coal's systems, the explosion's root causes and how to prevent such a tragedy in the future.
It was the department's largest investigation, with 13 full-time investigators working on the case for the first nine months after the blast.

[fabs]

5 EXPERTS IN SPECULATION,
most of them from o/seas have now been paid for their opinion [ wonder how much ] without ever having been near the site of the tragic event.
Can this be for real?
Wonder what talent is required to get on this gravy-train, Soothsaying perhaps?

[Coalman]

I see that PRC has been delisted from the ASX but is still on, but not trading on the NZX. Anyone want to comment. Does this mean our shares are getting more worthless by the second.

[patrick]

How many shares do u have and who much are u asking?

[bryndlefly]

GENERAL: PRC: PRC: Delisting

PRC
14/02/2012 17:13
GENERAL

REL: 1713 HRS Pike River Coal Limited (In Receivership)

GENERAL: PRC: PRC: Delisting

14 February 2012

NZX Market Supervision
Pike River Coal Limited (In Receivership) ("PRC")
Delisting

NZX Market Supervision ("NZXMS") advises that, at the request of the
receivers of Pike River Coal Limited (In Receivership) ("PRC"), the PRC
ordinary shares ("Shares") will cease to be quoted and PRC will be delisted
from the close of market on Friday 24 February 2012.

NZXMS has been advised by the receivers of PRC that the prospect of any
return to shareholders is uncertain and that PRC is not expected to
recommence trading during the receivership. NZXMS accepts the receiver's
submission that there is no benefit in the Shares remaining quoted and
therefore there is no detriment in the Shares ceasing quotation and PRC being
delisted.

ENDS
End CA:00219516 For:PRC Type:GENERAL Time:2012-02-14 17:13:38

[Monkey Poms]

It's very curious..... "sale of removable assets only" ....... why did the receivers call for expressions of interest if they weren't sure they even had a mine to sell ?
Has some new information come to light ?

I think with the information we have heard from the enquiry that a prospective buyer of the mine
wouldn't pay a high price for the mine to be operated as it was to extract 18m tons of coal.
At one time I was a big advocate of the long wall method of mining to extract all of the coal from Pike, not any more it would be too dangerous, the coal seams are too thick. I think that this underground method is a non-starter.

Could be that a buyer has had a nod and a wink that at some future date opencast of the mine would be approved,then much of the current plant and machinery would be surplus and could be sold off. It would be advisable to keep the water pumping equipment from the coal washing plant / the coal transport pipeline and the flumes,for a future owner to transport the opencast coal to the stockpile area.Then the receiver would have two bites of the cherry - sell the mine separately to buyer A surplus plant and machinery to buyer B ( all of this is only speculation ).

Should the receiver sell the surplus equipment required for underground mining,some of the funds could be used
to employ the relevant expertise to put forward a case for open casting the mine.

The inquiry commission asked two DOC employees whether or not Pike had applied to opencast the mine, each one said no, which is the right answer.Should the commission have asked the question, "have you ever discussed the possibility with the Pike representatives regarding opencast", and the answer was no,then i think their answer would have been incorrect.

I don't think there are any underground mining companies out there who are anywhere near perfect,the five mining experts employed by the commission could do a demolition job on any company,i feel sure of that,I personally would not like to see miners work the mine again as before,the safety and working problems are too severe to take any further risks.

A planning application is worth a try,maybe the DoC could be amenable to the idea of open cast. This would certainly increase the chance of a much quicker sale.
Are there any experts out there willing to take on the task of convincing the Receiver that this is the way to go and work on a no-win no-fee basis?

MP

[Coalman]

So on 24 feb. Pike River Shares will also be delisted from the NZX. Anyone want to guess till they start trading again, if ever.

[bryndlefly]

So on 24 feb. Pike River Shares will also be delisted from the NZX. Anyone want to guess till they start trading again, if ever.
Am i right in assuming there won't be a sale announcement until the royal commission is finished? The royal commission website http://pikeriver.royalcommission.govt.nz/Commission-Hearings mentions that there's a 'phase four' hearing for final submissions starting 2nd April 2012. So maybe late April would be my very optimistic guess.

[neopoleII]

what i cant understand is..... how can they have a royal commission which is the highest form of legal investigation when they really have no idea of what happened..... all we have is educated speculation.
an investigation is/was obviously needed, but a royal commission should only have happen once the mine was entered.

which brings me to my next point....... after all this time you would think they could of drilled a vertical borehole big enough for a crew to go down and have a real look.
its only a hundred or so meters down.
yet nothing has happened except of a 6 inch hole and a crappy camera.

they cant even get to the so called rock fall that has sealed the mine.

to me it seems like "keep the evidence and truth buried" until lots of time has passed and mine is sold and anyone maybe accountable has moved on.

the coal mine is just an empty tunnel and mining cavity full of gas. they could easily sink a few 6 inch drills and extract the gas, say a few weeks 24/7 should bring it back to a safe environment.

changing DOC rules to drill vent holes to recover the miners and get true answers is only a government over ride of DOC mandate...... which was created by the government anyway.

im sure all politicians on all sides of the house would agree that this a situation worthy if not necessary to bypass DOC on this occasion.

im sure if we had another Erebus, the government wouldnt sit back and wait for the airline to do something.............
the fact that PRC (the company) is game over is no excuse for not doing anything.

[Xerof]

Coalman,

As with the events after the initial explosion, shareholders were and are being let down gently.

Take the cues currently being given - NZO has written off their shareholding and some unsecured debt, entirely; the Receivers have widened the scenarios for disposition to include on-site assets only - reading between the lines this means there will be no sale as an underground mine. The Receivers will shortly (within a few months, IMO) appoint a liquidator and that will be that.

Co-incidentally, your question re PRC still being listed on the NZX was answered by the official delisting inside 24 hours - perhaps someone read your post and it triggered an "Oh ****, we need to do that" moment - or perhaps you were getting the news out first.

Anyway, I will give you my own personal opinion on your original question, are the shares worthless? IMO they are worthless and will not trade again on NZX

There will be others with a contrary view - it seems Patrick is willing to negotiate for ownership of your shares

[winner69]

Jeez that joker White didn't get on well with that well respected Whittall did he ..... it rough saying things like "still a dodgy git'' and "overbearing, quite dictatorial, megalomaniac'' and he tells lies as well .... and on TV he was quoted as saying that Whittall shafted the previous CEO to get his job

The whole organisation must have been totally dysfunctional big time with no real leadership ..... as everybody felt the pressure applied by shareholders to get the coal out .... on time


No wonder things went wrong big time

[troyvdh]

.....all this is so depressing....folk lost lives....in the quest for more dollars....I believe that it is abundtley clear ...that this whole outfit was dysfunctional from the very beginning....as a shareholder of PRC.....I am trully disgusted in what has occured...I mean when you have a potential asset of 5-6 millon dollars.....why not ensure....the return.....I mean 1` ventilation shaft....inside the mine...And the fact that that the machine that extracted the ethan gas was inside the mine.......

[fish]

.....all this is so depressing....folk lost lives....in the quest for more dollars....I believe that it is abundtley clear ...that this whole outfit was dysfunctional from the very beginning....as a shareholder of PRC.....I am trully disgusted in what has occured...I mean when you have a potential asset of 5-6 millon dollars.....why not ensure....the return.....I mean 1` ventilation shaft....inside the mine...And the fact that that the machine that extracted the ethan gas was inside the mine.......

Share your sentiments and regrets for the folks lost but not the figures and chemistry .
Billions not millions .
Methane not ethane.

Wish you were right about ethane though-this is heavier than air and would not have collected high up the mine like the lighter methane did .
This tragedy was multifactorial-I havnt seen ANYONE involved who did their job properly . I know its easy to critisise with hindsight bias but this was monumentally a tragic series of errors that left it open to explode .

We probably are never going to know if it was a match or an electrical fault that caused the fatal spark but the environmental conditions that led to the explosion should not happen in this century

[fabs]

End of Feb.
and still no word by the receivers in regards to sale of Pike assets.
Just another case of making hay while the sun shines, by the receivers that is.

[bryndlefly]

Yes it's frustrating. I sent an enquiry to receivers PWC on their website last week, asking if there was a rough idea when a sale would be announced, and was there any chance of me getting any money for my shares, and she replied: "With regards to your share holding in Pike River, there would only be a distribution to shareholders after all secured and unsecured creditors have been repaid in full. Although a sale of the assets of the company is not yet complete, our indications to date are that there will not be sufficient funds to allow repayment to all unsecured creditors so it is very unlikely there would be a surplus for shareholders. Copies of our receivers reports as to the progress of the receivership will continue to be available on our website."

[iceman]

Yes it's frustrating. I sent an enquiry to receivers PWC on their website last week, asking if there was a rough idea when a sale would be announced, and was there any chance of me getting any money for my shares, and she replied: "With regards to your share holding in Pike River, there would only be a distribution to shareholders after all secured and unsecured creditors have been repaid in full. Although a sale of the assets of the company is not yet complete, our indications to date are that there will not be sufficient funds to allow repayment to all unsecured creditors so it is very unlikely there would be a surplus for shareholders. Copies of our receivers reports as to the progress of the receivership will continue to be available on our website."

Thanks for this information bryndlefly, as shocking as this is. All hell breaks lose when a Chinese company wants to pay HIGH price for a few dairy farms that have been mismanaged into receivership by Kiwi farmers, but here we are obviously about to give away some of our valuebale resources, most likely to an overseas buyer. Absolutely pathetic.

[Baddarcy]

Yes it's frustrating. I sent an enquiry to receivers PWC on their website last week, asking if there was a rough idea when a sale would be announced, and was there any chance of me getting any money for my shares, and she replied: "With regards to your share holding in Pike River, there would only be a distribution to shareholders after all secured and unsecured creditors have been repaid in full. Although a sale of the assets of the company is not yet complete, our indications to date are that there will not be sufficient funds to allow repayment to all unsecured creditors so it is very unlikely there would be a surplus for shareholders. Copies of our receivers reports as to the progress of the receivership will continue to be available on our website."

Following the insurance payout last year, my understanding is that the total debt left was about $30m. So for there to be no payment to shareholders presumably the sale would have to be less than $30m.... sorry but i'm not buying (excuse the pun) that.

While i do think the receivers are taking an awfully long time to do thier job, to their own benefit too i note, There has also been talk of a trust being setup to get the bodies out, i expect the receivers would feel obligated to contribute to that also. i don't think that would add much more than $10m - $20m to the total cost.

So back to the receivers statement above... just doesn't wash with me, looks like a generic statement they probably send to all enquiries for all receiverships they manage.

[peterfindlay]

Sorry guys, any hope of getting anything for PRC, let alone for shareholders, seems to be ignoring the known facts:



NZOG has written off all its remaining Pike debt and its Pike shareholding.
You can’t do write-offs on a whim – there has to be information that satisfies the auditors.
NZOG appointed the receivers and will be getting regular updates on the sales process.
In its announcement about the write-off (26 Jan) NZOG said there were three possible outcomes – a sale of the mine, a sale with payments made when the mine is reopened, and disposal of the moveable assets. That third option means no buyer for the mine – sell what you can, lock the gate and walk away.
The Receivers have been trying to find a buyer for over a year. Clearly there is little enthusiasm in the market to take on Pike.
The access tunnel has still not been recovered. There is the unknown – and potentially unlimited - cost of recovering the men’s remains.
Solid Energy control the rail transport network so how do you get the coal to market. A purchaser needs that assurance. Access to the rail network/infrastructure is not currently regulated like other infrastructural assets.
Solid Energy has publicly stated that it is not a bidder, and in the past has acted in a way that seem to have hindered attempts to maximise the value of PRC's coal assets.
The production targets set by Pike were probably never achievable. The geology is much more complex than thought and dozens of bore holes will have to be drilled. A second exit will have to be constructed.
The Royal Commission won’t report until September and may impose all sorts of restrictions – it could even suggest that there be no mining at Pike.
A workforce will have to be built from scratch.
Given all that, it is not surprising that a buyer hasn’t been found.


It appears that the Receivers must think they can still achieve a sale, but anything they get is going to be small.

[jonu]

NZ Herald reports sale of Pike River to Solid Energy

[Casa del Energia]

NZ Herald reports sale of Pike River to Solid Energy

Yup. And at least it's going to a Kiwi outfit who will get the bodies out (the overseas dudes baulked at the idea) - So if I'm going to lose money on this, might as well lose it with dignitiy.

[Mr Tommy]

Yup. And at least it's going to a Kiwi outfit who will get the bodies out (the overseas dudes baulked at the idea) - So if I'm going to lose money on this, might as well lose it with dignitiy.

Just think Mr Casa D E, when the Government does a part sale of Solid E, you can effectively buy back your share of Pike.

[Casa del Energia]

How far do you think I can stretch myself Mr Teeeee ?!! There’s all that SOE Elect generator scrip to soak up as well. No way - - If the Govt wants to retire debt – they can get overseas investors to buy Solid Energy. I’m looking at Bathurst – opencast, same type of coal and still trading cheap...
.. Oh, and run by Aussies, not those nut bars that have been running things in Greymouth.

[Coalman]

How does the sale of Pike to S.E effect the price of our shares? Are they still worthless?

[digger]

How does the sale of Pike to S.E effect the price of our shares? Are they still worthless?

That is the question.. Find out next May which means in shorthand next August.
To my mind the very best result would be if SE paid nothing in cash but gave shares in lue. NZO then could keep it as an investment [unlikely] or give it to NZO shareholders which is probably even more unlikely. Some years back NZO shareholders did get PPP shares free so the idea does stand a chance. But for now it is all pure guesswork as to what might happen.
At the Wellington meeting some short weeks ago AK told me the company was expecting a no sale for PIKE. Maybe he was just damping hopes or did real progress unknown even to him take place just recently,which could be the case as NZO as the major shareholder in PIKE has no more right s from the receiver than anyone else.
It is good news for body recovery and now good news for us after expecting perhaps just a sale of the removal assets.


But to just show you how little I knew of the sale process,at exactally 2.15 i was with my accountant and PIKE came up. I told him they would not sell the mine just when it was being released that the mine was sold.So the result is greater than my expectation which always leads to satifaction.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Was the sale price any more than a dollar which would allow the receivership to be wound up? The longer they muck about the more fees for the receiver

[digger]

How does the sale of Pike to S.E effect the price of our shares? Are they still worthless?


Coalman and others,
I have had the weekend to think on this question and now i would like feedback on a idea i think we on sharetrader should put directly to Solid Enegry.

When the receiver gets finished i fully expect the shares will be worthless or of very little value. My plan has nothing to do with the sales process and should not be seen as part of it as in doing so could make complications.The idea is that it would be very good advertising and goodwill on the part of Solid Enegry to allow pike shareholder to redeem their pike holdings to buy Soild Enegry shares at a fixed discount when the float occures.



Well you might say why should they bother.Firstly I think they might be interested as we would still have to buy the remainder of the share and it would give SE shareholders that are interested in Mining.For the govt when it floats SE it certainly would not be interested in having a pile of greaved Xpike holders left with nothing.



This is just a quick fly past you PIKE holders to see what you think of it. Certainly feel free to add or substract any thoughts you might have.Is the idea worth bring up or is it somehow getting in the road of the receiver?

[the machine]

digger i think you are grasping at straws.

my pike shares are a sizeable tax loss when i can bring them to a/c

M

[Monkey Poms]

Coalman and others,
I have had the weekend to think on this question and now i would like feedback on a idea i think we on sharetrader should put directly to Solid Enegry.

When the receiver gets finished i fully expect the shares will be worthless or of very little value. My plan has nothing to do with the sales process and should not be seen as part of it as in doing so could make complications.The idea is that it would be very good advertising and goodwill on the part of Solid Enegry to allow pike shareholder to redeem their pike holdings to buy Soild Enegry shares at a fixed discount when the float occures.



Well you might say why should they bother.Firstly I think they might be interested as we would still have to buy the remainder of the share and it would give SE shareholders that are interested in Mining.For the govt when it floats SE it certainly would not be interested in having a pile of greaved Xpike holders left with nothing.



This is just a quick fly past you PIKE holders to see what you think of it. Certainly feel free to add or substract any thoughts you might have.Is the idea worth bring up or is it somehow getting in the road of the receiver?

Hi Digger. The Machine is right, we would be grasping at straws. If there was a leader amongst us Pikers who could have put themselves forward in the past for one last bite of the cherry, to retain ownership, then the following course of action may have helped: Each investor to commit a further 30 cents per share, payable in two parts. The first part to enable a body to apply on behalf of PRC a commitment from the government to opencast the mine. If permission was granted ( and that would be a tall order for Pike ),
it would change the whole financial situation. If not we would only have lost a few cents per share.
Our fictitious 'leader' would still have a massive job on his hands. You all know the problems to resolve, such as assistance from the government for funding to retrieve the miners bodies etc. The inquiry may well recommend Pike to be opencast.

I think it's an absolute certainty that at some time in the future SE will opencast Pike. They will then have an asset worth billions.
They did just enough to frighten away the rival bidders. Remember when SE said Pike's cargo of coal wasn't even coking coal?
How times change.

Monkey Poms

[iceman]

I will just copy my comments (below) on the NZO thread. Othershiwe agree with The Machine and Monkey Poms that we now may be grasping at straws Digger as it is a bit too late "to grab our arse when we've shat your pants"!

"Digger I agree with everything you say about the Boards failures to do with drillings etc (as I agree with & respect all of your considered comments over a long period of time) and in fact, overall management of PRC. But I do not agree that I am wrong in saying NZO "gave" this multi billion resource away. NZO could have been in the running/bidding for PRC from the Receivers, either alone or with selected partners, at a price that they considered as the minimal price acceptable. By doing so, they could have basically put their foot down for the Receiver selling this asset for an unacceptably low price. I absolutely realise that many NZO shareholders don't agree with me on this, mainly because they don't trust NZO's Directors to make the right decisions on PRC and turn it into a producing & profitable mine. Obviously the Directors have a similar lack of confidence in themselves and have decided to "give it away" and write of 100% of this investment.

What upsets me the most is the fact that a Boss of a SEO (Solid Energy) has managed to talk the value of PRC down and scaring away any potential foreign investors, resulting in his SOE picking this asset up for a song (I maybe be proven wrong when the final price comes out but don't think so).
It looks to me, that this has been a strategic play assisted by the Government not willing to clarify any rules that will apply to PRC in the future and Solid Energy being the sole bidder as a result, even after saying they were out. Obviously they were very confident of their strategy. Of course this is great for the Government which is about to sell off 49% of SE.
Hey presto, along come a group of Maori lawyers taking the Govt to court for part selling the SOE’s without their approval as the “rightful owners”, Mana Party wants to picket and protest against any foreign shareholders (Crafar farms &r SOE’s) and Xena Greena Queen protesting about anything at all that may move our country forward.
All of the above brings me to question why foreign investors should even consider investing in these sectors of NZ when other countries and Governments are much more in favour of outside investment. And if they don’t, why should I ?
These musings probably don’t belong on this thread but I felt a need to explain myself Digger. I can not finish this though, without saying that I would like the 29 families that have suffered the most from this tragedy to be fully consulted and have a say in any future decisions, decisions that should try to recognise and respect the interest of all the many suffering parties involved and which will hopefully result in the grieving families coming to terms with their loss and the lost souls resting in peace."

[Balance]

The directors have written the mine off and hope the problem will be someone else's. That it will all go away from them.

That's the long and short of it.

Totally to be expected of the incompetent, untrustworthy and unprofessional individuals that they are.

As for Gordon Ward - how immoral and cowardly can an individual ever be?

[digger]

I will just copy my comments (below) on the NZO thread. Othershiwe agree with The Machine and Monkey Poms that we now may be grasping at straws Digger as it is a bit too late "to grab our arse when we've shat your pants"!

"Digger I agree with everything you say about the Boards failures to do with drillings etc (as I agree with & respect all of your considered comments over a long period of time) and in fact, overall management of PRC. But I do not agree that I am wrong in saying NZO "gave" this multi billion resource away. NZO could have been in the running/bidding for PRC from the Receivers, either alone or with selected partners, at a price that they considered as the minimal price acceptable. By doing so, they could have basically put their foot down for the Receiver selling this asset for an unacceptably low price. I absolutely realise that many NZO shareholders don't agree with me on this, mainly because they don't trust NZO's Directors to make the right decisions on PRC and turn it into a producing & profitable mine. Obviously the Directors have a similar lack of confidence in themselves and have decided to "give it away" and write of 100% of this investment.

What upsets me the most is the fact that a Boss of a SEO (Solid Energy) has managed to talk the value of PRC down and scaring away any potential foreign investors, resulting in his SOE picking this asset up for a song (I maybe be proven wrong when the final price comes out but don't think so).
It looks to me, that this has been a strategic play assisted by the Government not willing to clarify any rules that will apply to PRC in the future and Solid Energy being the sole bidder as a result, even after saying they were out. Obviously they were very confident of their strategy. Of course this is great for the Government which is about to sell off 49% of SE. "


We seem to agree up to the point of receivership. Prior to receivership NZO directors screwd up the pike mine because they were all academic types that had no practical skills in mining.The failure to collect independent gas readings shows just how far out of their dept they were.They were oil men and not miners. Now after the receivership the world changes.The govt will not reissue the mining licence to NZO ,so in effect NZO is shut out of the bidding for PIKE.

This is why i continue to think we should go back to grasping at straws as The Machine and Monkey Poms have put it and as i outlined in my earlier post. Your comment of SE having a stategic play assisted by the govt is IMHO 100% correct.I further agree with you that PIKE-2 will opencast at at least in parts and the govt will suddenly assist SE in making this happen. This will again IMHO happen before the govt sells its 49%. It will be a winner for SE and i feel we should be in.
Iceman your posts comes off as saying that you are highly pissed off with the way it has all turned out.Certainly if we go back about 8 years ago it was not the outcome i imagined and i too am pissed off and a lot less wealthy.Yet if i look past the anger in your post i can see all the reasons for why we should try to get part of the action.In summary if you can not lick them try to join them.
Lets reconsider it and thanks for your imput.

[digger]

Hi Digger. The Machine is right, we would be grasping at straws. If there was a leader amongst us Pikers who could have put themselves forward in the past for one last bite of the cherry, to retain ownership, then the following course of action may have helped: Each investor to commit a further 30 cents per share, payable in two parts. The first part to enable a body to apply on behalf of PRC a commitment from the government to opencast the mine. If permission was granted ( and that would be a tall order for Pike ),
it would change the whole financial situation. If not we would only have lost a few cents per share.
Our fictitious 'leader' would still have a massive job on his hands. You all know the problems to resolve, such as assistance from the government for funding to retrieve the miners bodies etc. The inquiry may well recommend Pike to be opencast.

I think it's an absolute certainty that at some time in the future SE will opencast Pike. They will then have an asset worth billions.
They did just enough to frighten away the rival bidders. Remember when SE said Pike's cargo of coal wasn't even coking coal?
How times change.

Monkey Poms

Thanks for your imput Monkey Poms.
Some months ago you put forward this idea you have outlined and while my emotions thought it was correct my hard business head said no.Let me put it as blunt as i see it. The govt wants SE to have PIKE and let them opencast if necessary.This will let the govt sell the 49% they intend to at a better profit and to hell with anyone else in the room. Your idea was counter to the govt plans and amounts to pissing into the wind and just making some legal chap richer.My idea was to hopefully let us in for a small part of the action.

Time to reconsider,but again thanks for your comments.

[digger]

digger i think you are grasping at straws.

my pike shares are a sizeable tax loss when i can bring them to a/c

M

The machine, I started off as a trader and believe me i know a fair amount about tax losses and gains. If my plan worked even as well as could be expected you would still be left with a fair amount of tax losses.There is just no way SE would be taking the amount off there share as what you paid for your pike shares.

I had not considered seeing it as grasping at straws as you put it,but as an opening to become part of the action.
Thanks for your comment.Cheers

[the machine]

We seem to agree up to the point of receivership. Prior to receivership NZO directors screwd up the pike mine because they were all academic types that had no practical skills in mining.The failure to collect independent gas readings shows just how far out of their dept they were.They were oil men and not miners. Now after the receivership the world changes.The govt will not reissue the mining licence to NZO ,so in effect NZO is shut out of the bidding for PIKE.

This is why i continue to think we should go back to grasping at straws as The Machine and Monkey Poms have put it and as i outlined in my earlier post. Your comment of SE having a stategic play assisted by the govt is IMHO 100% correct.I further agree with you that PIKE-2 will opencast at at least in parts and the govt will suddenly assist SE in making this happen. This will again IMHO happen before the govt sells its 49%. It will be a winner for SE and i feel we should be in.
Iceman your posts comes off as saying that you are highly pissed off with the way it has all turned out.Certainly if we go back about 8 years ago it was not the outcome i imagined and i too am pissed off and a lot less wealthy.Yet if i look past the anger in your post i can see all the reasons for why we should try to get part of the action.In summary if you can not lick them try to join them.
Lets reconsider it and thanks for your imput.



any bonus payment in event mine goes open caste, could probably be distributed by receiver to shareholderrs, after all creditors paid.

M

[Monkey Poms]

The machine, I started off as a trader and believe me i know a fair amount about tax losses and gains. If my plan worked even as well as could be expected you would still be left with a fair amount of tax losses.There is just no way SE would be taking the amount off there share as what you paid for your pike shares.

I had not considered seeing it as grasping at straws as you put it,but as an opening to become part of the action.
Thanks for your comment.Cheers

Digger. I agree with your earlier comments regarding NZO directors being academic types that had no practical skills in mining, NZO also stuck with their appointment of Gordon Ward for way past his sell by date, Gordon being absolutely brilliant at raising cash. Within one minute of meeting him for the first time i knew that his grasp of the project was limited yet Gordon remained in charge of the project, he had the shout, with limited knowledge in total charge (DANGEROUS)

We Pikers must also take some of the blame for not trying hard enough in trying to push more for directors on the board with practical experience possibly from our ranks.

As for NZO directors throwing the towel in, allowing Solid energy to take this asset (possibly for peanuts);
Digger if you are hoping Solid Energy will give Pikers part of the action, think again. Cast your mind back
to when Solid Energy purchased Pike's stock of coal which Pike received a fraction of its true value, all of this going on while our management team took their eye off the ball to concentrate on a way to get the men out.
The man who implemented the rip off must have a wooden heart and if he sees a weakness he is going to kick you in your short and curlies. The Italian mafia would not get away with the way SE are about to shaft Pikers.

Monkey Poms.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Monkey Poms apparently the other buyers wanted to shaft you pikers, if I use your own words

[Monkey Poms]

Hi Digger as you have a Guru status on this site I imagine that most Pikers who read your blogs
agree most of the time with your comments, I certainly do. Just a thought, would you be any good in
giving a pep talk to a bunch of men who have lost their spines and are about to capitulate and be
instrumental in handing over an asset worth billions of dollars to a company whose morals are questionable,
for a small amount of money compared to its true value.

If pep talks are your forte, consider the following and lets piss in the wind.

The receivers prospectus for the sale of Pike, states PWC could call off the sale at any time, the proposed
sale to Solid Energy has not gone through yet.

NZOG will not put a low bid in for the mine because the government will not transfer the licence, however
if we could persuade the NZO directors as well as existing shareholders to chip in 10c per share, we could pay off the minor creditors and dispense with the receiver, then put the mine on hold.

NZO management have no will to work the mine but they could manage a situation whereby if the opportunity arose to opencast, they could work with a life of the mine partner to work the opencast based on a ( partner) 60%-40% ( Pike ) ratio on FOB sale of coal excluding transport & dock fees.

For the prospect of laying out 10c to opencast 50 million of the 62 million tons of coal using a contractor
in this case its got to be worth throwing good money after bad, the reward over a period of time could
return up to and over us$10 per share.

At some point in the future Solid Energy will secure permission to opencast the mine, and if we grumble
and complain about it Don would sit back and say,''well you Pikers never officially applied for permission
to opencast the mine".

Monkey Poms.

[J R Ewing]

MP, don't worry too much about Solid Energy getting permission to open cast Pike. There will be plenty of people doing a bit more than grumbling and complaining before that happens.

[Monkey Poms]

JR,It has taken a long time for me realise the power of the Greens in NZ. The day the penny dropped is when i opened one of your national newspapers, pictured inside was a double page spread of a demonstration against mining. Old and the very young, a very large turnout compared to the population, a powerful image.
Somewhere along the line all of us use a product that was once mined, mining is here to stay.
I would like to know how many of the anti-opencast, marching demonstrators would like
their sons to work in an underground mine against the prospect of being employed on the surface.
How many have criticised the prospect who haven't been within 100k of Pike?

In the UK, government & mining companies make a good job of restoring the land,it wasn't always
so. If i thought Pike was to leave the site in the condition i once experienced in Queenstown, Tasmania,
I would be as anti-opencast as yourself and join the the Greens. There has to be a balance, unless your
country is filthy rich. Then you can be as Green as you like.

Monkey Poms.

[Coalman]

Mr. Poms, You said a mouthfull dude :)

[Monkey Poms]

Mr. Poms, You said a mouthfull dude :)

Not much happening in our yard at the moment Coalman, read the sports page,it's a proper job I need.
:)
Monkey Poms:)

[Hoop]

Solid Energy Interim report to 31 December 2011.
https://www.nzx.com/files/attachments/154849.pdf

Nice healthy half year profit...but no dividend ($30 M?) to be paid to Govt this time around....Hmmmmm

Their reason of Non payment is the drop in Coal prices recently....that a good reason as the last big drop in coal prices put the company in a loss position.
Also no dividend paid last year either ..being conservative with the unforeseen future with CHCH earthquakes in mind(re Lyttleton Port)

[Balance]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10797181

Although some of the evidence is contested and conclusions cannot be drawn ahead of the commission's final report, due by September 28, the inquiry heard some startling revelations about the causes of the tragedy.

INEFFECTIVE MANAGEMENT

The inquiry was told the mine had a "dysfunctional" culture. The Pike River management team was allegedly out of touch and serious safety warnings failed to reach the top. Key roles had high turnover rates, with the company appointing seven mine managers in two years. Lack of communication between management and the board meant board members did not receive some audits and risk assessments. The board's safety committee had not met for more than a year.

MONEY AND PRODUCTION WOES

Pike River faced daunting financial problems as the mine failed to meet production targets. The company had invested some $350 million in a mine that was not delivering the annual 1.3m tonnes of high-grade coking coal it was meant to. The spiralling costs were compounded by production delays due to machinery problems and difficult geography. The inquiry was told the introduction of production bonuses pushed miners beyond what they could handle, something the company denied.

PRESSURES ON STAFF

The inquiry heard a disproportionate number of miners were relatively inexperienced. The manager in charge of the newly introduced hydraulic mining process received no formal training and had to learn on the job. Staff carried prohibited items like lighters and cellphones into the mine. One contractor was so concerned about a potential explosion that he would not enter the mine and later quit over safety concerns. There were allegations of workplace bullying.

SERIOUS METHANE ISSUES

Levels of flammable methane gas were known to be an issue but not enough was done about it. The inquiry heard the ventilation system was poorly designed and inadequate. Gas sensors were in a bad state of repair, improperly calibrated or deliberately tampered with. A new gas monitoring system was removed from the budget and advice to increase methane drainage capacity was not acted on by the time of the blast.

INADEQUATE ESCAPE PLANS

Mine safety manager Neville Rockhouse, who lost son Ben in the blast, said a 108m ventilation shaft used as the emergency escape route was too strenuous to climb. Half the ascent was up a vertical ladder that could hold only eight people and lacked platforms. Two men who attempted a test climb were unable to reach the surface. There was no hoist system to remove injured miners, and no refuge station despite repeated requests. Safety measures like a smoke-guidance system were delayed.

SUBSTANDARD INSPECTIONS

The Department of Labour's sole mines inspector gave evidence that a lack of specialist experts and on-site time made it difficult to assess health and safety issues. A former inspector said he faced an "impossible" workload and had not seen or acted on a long list of safety failures. The mine's own safety checks were also questioned. Mr Rockhouse was not told of incidents including gas spikes and tampering with sensors. He gave evidence that he was so busy with paperwork that he was rarely able to enter the mine.

FATAL CONSEQUENCES

Australian mining expert David Reece, who led an expert panel that helped the Department of Labour investigate the blast, gave evidence on the possible cause of the tragedy. He said a coalface had probably collapsed, expelling methane gas. The gas travelled up the mine and mixed with fresh air. A pump was switched on from the surface, causing electrical arcing that sparked the explosion. Another expert gave evidence the men were killed in the initial blast, either by the shockwave or suffocation.

A MUDDLED RESPONSE

The inquiry heard of chaos and confusion after the blast. Police in charge of the rescue operation lacked expertise. There were delays as key decisions were signed off in Wellington. Opinions were divided on whether it was safe to enter the mine. Experts believed the miners were dead and urged for the mine to be sealed to prevent further blasts, but authorities clung on to the hope of a rescue. A second blast followed five days later. Superintendent Gary Knowles gave a tearful apology over the way news of the deaths was broken to families. He accepted some aspects of the rescue could have been handled better, but said he did his best to save the miners.

*************<<<<<<<>>>>***************

RIP, PRC's 29 - the truth coming out now will set their spirits free.

Conrad John Adams, 43, Greymouth
Malcolm Campbell, 25, Greymouth
Glen Peter Cruse, 35, Cobden
Allan John Dixon, 59, Rununga
Zen Wodin Drew, 21, Greymouth
Christopher Peter Duggan, 31, Greymouth
Joseph Ray Dunbar, 17, Greymouth
John Leonard Hale, 45, Ruatapu
Daniel Thomas Herk, 36, Rununga
David Mark Hoggart, 33, Foxton
Richard Bennett Holling, 41, Blackball
Andrew David Hurren, 32, Greymouth
Jacobus (Koos) Albertus Jonker, 47, Cobden
William John Joynson, 49, Dunollie
Riki Steve Keane, 28, Greymouth
Terry David Kitchin, 41, Rununga
Samuel Peter Mackie, 26, Greymouth
Francis Skiddy Marden, 41, Rununga
Michael Nolan Hanmer Monk, 23, Greymouth
Stuart Gilbert Mudge, 31, Rununga
Kane Barry Nieper, 33, Greymouth
Peter O'Neill, 55, Rununga
Milton John Osborne, 54, Ngahere
Brendan John Palmer, 27, Cobden
Benjamin David Rockhouse, 21, Greymouth
Peter James Rodger, 40, Greymouth
Blair David Sims, 28, Greymouth
Joshua Adam Ufer, 25, Australia

[winner69]

Corporate manslaughter being touted as a crime as result of this sad happening ... obviously the populus have alraedy made up their mind about the outcomes

Raises the interesting question ..... who/what really is a 'corporate'

Any penalty would be monetary so maybe shareholders would suffer ..... but philosophically no doubt directors might feel culpable / accountable ..... but would shareholders feel they were responsible in some way and have a conscious if their company was found quilty of manslaughter?

My guess not really ...... they would fall back on we appointed the directors to look after our company so it is all their fault .... nothing to do with us

[the machine]

balance it seems yoy have put a lot of effort into your post

to whart ends??

M

[Balance]

balance it seems yoy have put a lot of effort into your post

to whart ends??

M

No effort, matey, cut and paste.

A little time to bring everyone who really cares, up to date with all the going ons with this sad sad tale.

A tale of gross incompetent and immoral mine and corporate mismanagement, coupled with gross abuse by posters on this site of anyone who dared to challenge the misinformation pumped out to entice share ramping.

[Mr Tommy]

Balance - while youre bringing everyone up to date, dont forget they still dont know what caused the explosion. The fact someone was smoking down there is incredible, plus someone had tampered with sensors that kept tripping.

Stacey Shortall, lawyer for the mine's former chief executive, Peter Whittall, said the department could not rule out contraband as an ignition source for an underground explosion. Murray agreed. That included cigarettes, matches, lighters, cellphones, watches, cameras, aluminium cans and food wrappers, she said.

In January 2009, an advisory notice was given to Pike staff after cigarette butts were found in the mine. Two months later, another notice stated the mine had "very strict rules of the taking of contraband items underground that could cause a spark or fire".

"Everyone's lives are at stake with the breach of these rules," the notice stated, which Shortall read.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/6386869/Methane-lit-by-spark-likely-cause-of-Pike-blast

[Balance]

Balance - while youre bringing everyone up to date, dont forget they still dont know what caused the explosion. The fact someone was smoking down there is incredible, plus someone had tampered with sensors that kept tripping.

Stacey Shortall, lawyer for the mine's former chief executive, Peter Whittall, said the department could not rule out contraband as an ignition source for an underground explosion. Murray agreed. That included cigarettes, matches, lighters, cellphones, watches, cameras, aluminium cans and food wrappers, she said.

In January 2009, an advisory notice was given to Pike staff after cigarette butts were found in the mine. Two months later, another notice stated the mine had "very strict rules of the taking of contraband items underground that could cause a spark or fire".

"Everyone's lives are at stake with the breach of these rules," the notice stated, which Shortall read.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/6386869/Methane-lit-by-spark-likely-cause-of-Pike-blast

Agreed - the true cause of the explosion will probability never be conclusively known. Could be an electrical fault, a spark from a mining drill or a cigarette.

In the end, it will come down to a balance of probability as to the possible cause.

I think you will agree however what is not in question now is that the miners stood little chance of survival, whatever the cause, due to the gross mismanagement of the mine, especially from a safety perspective.

INADEQUATE ESCAPE PLANS

Mine safety manager Neville Rockhouse, who lost son Ben in the blast, said a 108m ventilation shaft used as the emergency escape route was too strenuous to climb. Half the ascent was up a vertical ladder that could hold only eight people and lacked platforms. Two men who attempted a test climb were unable to reach the surface. There was no hoist system to remove injured miners, and no refuge station despite repeated requests. Safety measures like a smoke-guidance system were delayed.

[Balance]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike...-going-to-blow

"Mudge's parents said they were "not oblivious" to growing talk on the West Coast about safety standards at Pike River prior to November 19, 2010.

"We have had over the years of Pike River, various people coming in and out of our business saying, 'Wow, I have left the mine because I feel it is unsafe,' " Steve said.

"Not long before Stu rejoined Pike River Mine, we had a guy come into the yard who was a very experienced miner internationally and asked us for a job.

"This guy was outraged. He felt that the mine was in danger of exploding, threw his tools on the ground, walked out and came to us looking for a job."

"Earlier this month, Grey District mayor Tony Kokshoorn told the Star-Times that Whittall was a convincing talker, a trait he said arrested concerns he had raised with mine management well before the first explosion.

Added Carol: "Here we were faced with Pike River. Their prospectus and their international and national image was huge."

[Xerof]

The situation of Gordon Ward not being prepared to assist speaks volumes.........what a gutless wonder he is - the rat fleeing the ship before it sunk......

Just watched the Sunday programme on One, in which they tracked 'Gordy' down on the G.C.

On'yer Gordy - still as gutless and pathetic as ever

[Balance]

Just watched the Sunday programme on One, in which they tracked 'Gordy' down on the G.C.

On'yer Gordy - still as gutless and pathetic as ever

Gordon now a wheel clamper?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10803978

"NZ Wheel Clamping owner Gordon Ward was called to the carpark but refused to give any refund."

[fish]

My wife has just told me that she heard on the radio today that solid energy are talking to Pike River families first before making an annoucement .
Hopefully it will good news especially for the families and body recovery .
Havnt been able to verify on google news search .

[digger]

My wife has just told me that she heard on the radio today that solid energy are talking to Pike River families first before making an annoucement .
Hopefully it will good news especially for the families and body recovery .
Havnt been able to verify on google news search .


It was on TV1 at 6 news report.

[Baddarcy]

It was on TV1 at 6 news report.

NZ Herald is saying the same thing.....about time!!

[Balance]

NZOG to pay Solid Energy for taking Pike River off its hands?

Or should we say, bloodied hands?

[digger]

NZOG to pay Solid Energy for taking Pike River off its hands?

Or should we say, bloodied hands?

The bloodied hands belong to the greenies and Doc for not allowing a road to be built above the mine so small breather holes could be drilled and thereby avoiding the methane buildup in the first place. This is the outcome i hope the RC will arrive at so that when SE takes over the mine can be run as a mine should be run----that is best practise can be implimented without outside interferences.

[J R Ewing]

The bloodied hands belong to the greenies and Doc for not allowing a road to be built above the mine so small breather holes could be drilled and thereby avoiding the methane buildup in the first place. This is the outcome i hope the RC will arrive at so that when SE takes over the mine can be run as a mine should be run----that is best practise can be implimented without outside interferences.

Digger,

Are you saying that it was KNOWN that the mine was going to be unsafe due to it being impossible to adequately ventillate without extra holes, but that NZO built it anyway? And then you reckon it's DOC's fault when it goes wrong!

[Balance]

The bloodied hands belong to the greenies and Doc for not allowing a road to be built above the mine so small breather holes could be drilled and thereby avoiding the methane buildup in the first place. This is the outcome i hope the RC will arrive at so that when SE takes over the mine can be run as a mine should be run----that is best practise can be implimented without outside interferences.

Don't delude yourself and your director and management mates at NZOG about who is responsible for the deaths of the 29 miners.

NZOG and Pike had the consent and knew exactly what were required to make the mine safe.

Gross mismanagement resulted in them taking shortcuts. Think of what the tens of millions of dollars spent because of incompetence - e.g.. over $15m spent fixing the collapsed ventilation shaft could have done to enhance mine safety.

Instead, we learnt from the Inquiry that the gas sensor was "in a poor state of repair"!!!!!!!!!!!!!*****!!!!!!!!!!

Do you want a repeat of what have been uncovered at the Commission of Inquiry so far?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10768799

I think you do.

[Balance]

Digger,

Are you saying that it was KNOWN that the mine was going to be unsafe due to it being impossible to adequately ventillate without extra holes, but that NZO built it anyway? And then you reckon it's DOC's fault when it goes wrong!

Sadly, Digger personifies the way that NZOG and Pike are trying to steer responsibility and accountability elsewhere.

[digger]

Sadly, Digger personifies the way that NZOG and Pike are trying to steer responsibility and accountability elsewhere.

Altering facts and diverting responsibility or not answering a question is your area where you are the king expert and i could not even begin to match your output. How does any minor shareholder(nzo) of another publicly listed company (PRC) have accountability or responsibility over what PIKE did . If they do then all PIKE shareholders are responsibility.

[glennj]

The bloodied hands belong to the greenies and Doc for not allowing a road to be built above the mine so small breather holes could be drilled and thereby avoiding the methane buildup in the first place. This is the outcome i hope the RC will arrive at so that when SE takes over the mine can be run as a mine should be run----that is best practise can be implimented without outside interferences.

That is an extraordinary and silly statement "digger" which has quickly been rebutted I see. PRC accepted the conditions and went ahead!
(As an aside a road isn't required for breather holes to be drilled. I know PRC agreed to only drilling so many holes but whose fault is that!)

[digger]

Digger,

Are you saying that it was KNOWN that the mine was going to be unsafe due to it being impossible to adequately ventillate without extra holes, but that NZO built it anyway? And then you reckon it's DOC's fault when it goes wrong!

Seems to me i answered this rather important question some months back but never got a reply.
I had a right royal arguement in Morrinsville with some visiting greenies about PIKE about 2.5 years before the explosion.They were dead against mining at all and certainly against it in a national part.Said they had influence with the green part and the green movement and intented to frustrate the mining in every way possible.To that end they were successful and behind the sciens blocked best practice to remove the gas from the mine.My inquires to PIKE management as to why they did not drill holes to let the gas escape was just that DOC would not permit these holes to be drilled as i have outlined many times before. That is an infrigement of best practise. You could close down any farm or factory if you went about preventing best practice .
I am especially hopeful that the RC will allow SE to mine in a best practise manner.End of story

[J R Ewing]

Seems to me i answered this rather important question some months back but never got a reply.
I had a right royal arguement in Morrinsville with some visiting greenies about PIKE about 2.5 years before the explosion.They were dead against mining at all and certainly against it in a national part.Said they had influence with the green part and the green movement and intented to frustrate the mining in every way possible.To that end they were successful and behind the sciens blocked best practice to remove the gas from the mine.My inquires to PIKE management as to why they did not drill holes to let the gas escape was just that DOC would not permit these holes to be drilled as i have outlined many times before. That is an infrigement of best practise. You could close down any farm or factory if you went about preventing best practice .
I am especially hopeful that the RC will allow SE to mine in a best practise manner.End of story

It seems to me that NZO should have satisfied themselves (and almost certainly DID satisfy themselves) that the mine could be operated safely within the constaints of the consent. If that wasn't the case they should have tried to re-negotiate at the time or failing that should have abandoned the project. It may well be that NZO were wrong in their assessment, or that NZO (Gordon Ward?) or subsequently PRC (Gordon Ward?) cocked up the design or implementation. But that isn't DOC's fault and of itself it isn't a reason to throw all the consent conditions out of the window and allow Solid Energy to open cast the mine. Maybe Solid Energy will re-negotiate the consent conditions and maybe they will be able operate the mine in a safe AND environmentally responsible manner - if so, great.

[fish]

Solid energy meeting with prc families not until this evening.
Should be an annoucement after that .
This seems appropriate to me . Hopefully good news as I believe solid energy has the capability to be able to retrieve bodies and re-open mine

[Balance]

Solid energy meeting with prc families not until this evening.
Should be an annoucement after that .
This seems appropriate to me . Hopefully good news as I believe solid energy has the capability to be able to retrieve bodies and re-open mine

Nothing left for Pike shareholders, me thinks.

The total and complete destruction of shareholders' wealth by directors and management is then completed.

[Ian]

"Solid Energy will pay an initial $7.5 million for the assets with up to an additional $25m to be paid depending on whether the mine is reopened and the level of production"

The final settlement of the sale is expected in July, PwC said

[minimoke]

Hello,
Is there anybody out there?
Just post if you can hear me
Is there anyone at home?

Come on now
I hear you're feeling down
I can ease your pain
And get you on your feet again
Relax
I'll need some information first
Just the basic facts
Can you show me where it hurts

There is no pain, you are receding
A distant mines smoke on the horizon
You are only coming through in waves
Your hope expressed but I couldn’t understand you
When I was a child I had a vision
An SOE buy and a state asset sale
Now I've got that feeling once again
I can't explain, you would not understand
This is not how I am
I am nearly focused again

O.K.
Just a Solid Energy trick
There'll be no more piiiiiiike!
But you may feel a little sick
Can you stand up?
I do believe it's working, good
That'll keep you going through their IPO
Come on it's time to go.

There is no pain you are receding
A distant mines smoke on the horizon
You are only coming through in waves
Your hope expressed but I couldn’t understand you
When you were a child
You had an unwavering stare
Never from the corner of your eye
If you’d looked you would have seen it was gone
You cannot put your finger on it now
The mine is closed
The dream is gone
And you are I’m sure
Comfortably numb

[Balance]

Nothing left for Pike shareholders, me thinks.

The total and complete destruction of shareholders' wealth by directors and management is then completed.

Totally as predicted.

Ad the best part is?

As far as he directors of NZOG and Pike River are concerned, they can now walk away from the disaster and pretend it never happened.

Still amazing how Gordon Ward can decide not to turn up at the CI to testify! How the other directors and management must wish they can do the same?

[Casa del Energia]

More gnashing of teeth and wailing over the carcase. Investments go wrong, that’s the reason for keeping diversified. Risk is part of the game. So it’s all gone belly up -- I depreciated it on my records to 4c the day it caught fire. So, stand up, suck it in, carry on.
What’s for lunch?

[Balance]

More gnashing of teeth and wailing over the carcase. Investments go wrong, that’s the reason for keeping diversified. Risk is part of the game. So it’s all gone belly up -- I depreciated it on my records to 4c the day it caught fire. So, stand up, suck it in, carry on.
What’s for lunch?

Absolutely.

Save many here would have saved themselves so much grief if they had just listened and read properly some of the postings here, instead of hiding from the truth.

[Obelix]

HAHAHA what a pathetic outcome for all.

Personally I'm not surprised that they have given this away for FREE! so to speak.

I think the receiver should be sued for such a shocking disregard in protecting the value of this asset and for such a terrible outcome for all stake holders involved.

The only winner of this sale is the government ie Solid Energy who has robbed every investor blind, this sort of thing is to be expected of Dimond mines in Africa, not NZ.

Talk about showing the finger to everyone involved while laughing your ass off. I would say some people became very, very wealthy in the last few days.

[timmy]

victims families and others should take some blame to themselves. they stood firmly behind Don Elder to scare all oversea bidders away, what else can they expect?

[digger]

victims families and others should take some blame to themselves. they stood firmly behind Don Elder to scare all oversea bidders away, what else can they expect?

It is very hard to say anything against the victims families without seeming heartless. They approach everything with a sea of emotions as i suspect i would if placed in a similiar situation. That is why the military usually leave out victims families when trying to solve a problem.
So here you are I am as heartless as one can get by saying that on tonight TV1 program the victims families are being emotional and doing exactally opposite of the best effort to get the remains out of the mine. SE says we mine in an near area and in the process up the chances of creating an opportunity to create a situation where recovery might be possible. The families slam that one and say no mining until the bodies are out thereby blocking the best effort to recovery the bodies. Sad but true that cold logic stands the best chance of success over emotions in this area.

[Obelix]

The families are the biggest bunch of idiots in this entire saga. No one in the media wants to investigate what actually happened as it would seem cruel and heartless so they go on and on about body recovery which will never happen.

Wake up you stupid fools there are no bodies, if there was a fire you will find nothing but some teeth fillings and if they weren't burnt alive then the bodies will have decayed by the time Solid Energy or whoever get there act together in about 10 - 20 years time.

The families have played right into the governments hands, by the media focussing so much on the bodies and the sad stories of families no one realised what was actually happening. ie the government stealing this asset from under investors noses, giving it to Solid energy for a steal and now they can sell off there hugely increased state asset once there ready.

What a laugh talk about corruption. Shows how desperate NZ is to get it's finances back in order. Not once has any media coverage been given to address the amount of money that has been lost and the damage it will cause investors and their families, people who are still alive.

PRC straight out lied to each and every investor when they told us about their safety measures and so on, but again no one touches it because the families will say the media is heartless and so forth.

Oh well another reason why not to invest in NZ, and why the NZX will forever be crap.

All I can say one again is the liquidator should be sued over such a ****ty performance, 5 million are you kidding, **** had I known it was going for that kind of money I would have put in an offer of my own along with some bs guarantee that i would get bodies out, knowing well it will never happen ^_^

[Monkey Poms]

The receiver may have managed to keep his company employed over the next ten years,annually dishing
out payment received from Solid Energy ( tolling fees ) for coal extracted from the Pike mine during a twelve month
annual period to current shareholders.
It would be a good idea to keep your share certificates for Pike in a safe place,as your grand children may need
to confirm entitlement to any future payment, some of us may not be around that long to benefit from the deal
agreed with SE and the receiver.

A good number of members of the forum think SE will manage to obtain permission to opencast the mine sometime
in the future.The SE offer to pay a $15 dollar tolling fee per tonne is in line with the UK tolling rate for coal in the ground.
The $25million deferred payment at the rate of $2.5m per year will take 10 years to pay,and the tolling fee will then stop.
What can we expect to earn through tolling fees over ten years ? a fraction of the $900.000 million should the agreement
have been spread over the life of the mine.

My personal take on this is that SE will stay true to form and stuff us all again regarding coal tonnage, and we won't receive a cent.

Monkey Poms

[Balance]

The receiver may have managed to keep his company employed over the next ten years,annually dishing
out payment received from Solid Energy ( tolling fees ) for coal extracted from the Pike mine during a twelve month
annual period to current shareholders.
It would be a good idea to keep your share certificates for Pike in a safe place,as your grand children may need
to confirm entitlement to any future payment, some of us may not be around that long to benefit from the deal
agreed with SE and the receiver.

A good number of members of the forum think SE will manage to obtain permission to opencast the mine sometime
in the future.The SE offer to pay a $15 dollar tolling fee per tonne is in line with the UK tolling rate for coal in the ground.
The $25million deferred payment at the rate of $2.5m per year will take 10 years to pay,and the tolling fee will then stop.
What can we expect to earn through tolling fees over ten years ? a fraction of the $900.000 million should the agreement
have been spread over the life of the mine.

My personal take on this is that SE will stay true to form and stuff us all again regarding coal tonnage, and we won't receive a cent.

Monkey Poms

Write it off and put it down to experience.

Learn from this thread - all the warnings ignored because so many posters here were hell-bent upon wanting to believe that they fell for every bs thrown at them by the management.

So much for those who thought they were close to Pike and NZOG ad were getting the real oil from them.

The worse part is the over-the-top attempts by some posters to abuse and shout down anyone who tried to question and sound out warnings about Pike.

The sad part of course is that it took the deaths of 29 miners for the charade to finally stop and for everyone to wake up to the gross mismanagement and incompetence of Pike and NZOG.

Times like this, one wishes that Pike was operating in a country where the management and directors would be put on trial for manslaughter.

In NZ, plenty of crocodile tears and the one that has to take the prize is Gordon Ward's condolences to the family - 18 months plus down the tracks!

[Monkey Poms]

Totally as predicted.

Ad the best part is?

As far as he directors of NZOG and Pike River are concerned, they can now walk away from the disaster and pretend it never happened.

Still amazing how Gordon Ward can decide not to turn up at the CI to testify! How the other directors and management must wish they can do the same?

The DOC will be relieved Gordon refused to testify.He once told me of some of the (failed) requests he had made to the DOC falling on deaf ears, even though Gordon was a very persuasive person ( he managed to persuade us to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in Pike ).

For the rest of his life he will wish that he had some backbone and stood his ground to implement his request, which probably, if implemented, would have massively helped to avoid the explosion.

MP

[glennj]

The DOC will be relieved Gordon refused to testify.He once told me of some of the (failed) requests he had made to the DOC falling on deaf ears, even though Gordon was a very persuasive person ( he managed to persuade us to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in Pike ).

For the rest of his life he will wish that he had some backbone and stood his ground to implement his request, which probably, if implemented, would have massively helped to avoid the explosion.

MP

My understanding of the DOC matter is rather different. OK PRC were not allowed to opencast it or extend a road but they could have done more drilling! As I've said to "digger" the denied road was not essential to enable more drilling. My info is that PRC did not want to spend the money/time on extra drilling. Industry professionals have expressed to me that the PRC modus operandi re minimal drilling was very high risk. I am sure that Solid Energy will do a drilling programme in addition to what PRC did & should have done.
I lost confidence in what Gordon/PRC press releases were saying way back & I was one who raised concerns on this site that what was appearing in the media did not reflect accurately what was happening on the ground. It's been a sorry saga, a tragedy in fact. People need to look at PRC management and board not DOC when casting blame.

By the way I am not a DOC employee and never have been but I have provided contract services to the mining industry (not PRC) and have had a chance to chat with many in the industry being a resident West Coaster.

[Balance]

My info is that PRC did not want to spend the money/time on extra drilling. Industry professionals have expressed to me that the PRC modus operandi re minimal drilling was very high risk. People need to look at PRC management and board not DOC when casting blame.



Give a small man a big man's job and he is sure to stuff it up - that pretty much sums up what happened with Pike.

The collapsed mine shaft and hitting the graben cost Pike tens of millions in additional expenditure (and hundreds of millions in the final analysis) because Pike was not up to the task and did not plan the development with the right expertise.

Presumably $10m would have allowed all the holes required to be drilled to make the mine safe?

[Monkey Poms]

HAHAHA what a pathetic outcome for all.

Personally I'm not surprised that they have given this away for FREE! so to speak.

I think the receiver should be sued for such a shocking disregard in protecting the value of this asset and for such a terrible outcome for all stake holders involved.

The only winner of this sale is the government ie Solid Energy who has robbed every investor blind, this sort of thing is to be expected of Dimond mines in Africa, not NZ.

Talk about showing the finger to everyone involved while laughing your ass off. I would say some people became very, very wealthy in the last few days.

Obelix, most of us agree NZO board and the receiver have managed to give this $10 billion asset away for virtually free plus a load of promises.

Are there any more $10 billion assets out there in New Zealand going for free? At the very least NZO should have bought the
mine and sat on the asset for a couple of years, as I would have done if Pike were situated in the UK,but every man and his dog
would want it. Therefore, it would be impossible to buy it for the same terms agreed with Solid Energy ( Don Elders SE must be laughing his cap off ) and NZO directors should hang their heads in shame. And we shareholders should also take some share of the blame for not coming up with an alternative plan. ( we all stood there and watched it happen }.



Monkey Poms.

[Balance]

Obelix, most of us agree NZO board and the receiver have managed to give this $10 billion asset away for virtually free plus a load of promises.

Monkey Poms.

NZOG directors and management want this 'problem' to go away and they want to disassociate themselves as fast and as far as possible from this disaster which caused 29 deaths. Hence, the give away price.

The logical thing to do would have been to sit on it for as long as is required to find the right partner to mine the billions of dollars of coal.

Bunch of incompetent and cowardly clowns masquerading as directors - that's NZOG directors.

[Monkey Poms]

NZOG directors and management want this 'problem' to go away and they want to disassociate themselves as fast and as far as possible from this disaster which caused 29 deaths. Hence, the give away price.

The logical thing to do would have been to sit on it for as long as is required to find the right partner to mine the billions of dollars of coal.

Bunch of incompetent and cowardly clowns masquerading as directors - that's NZOG directors.

Balance this time i can't disagree with your opinion,once the foreign bidders were frightened off,
your description of the logical thing to do was the right thing to do and NZO directors FAILED.

MP

[fabs]

Looks like the end of the PRC Forum now, so good bye every-one and good luck.
No doubt it will resurface under a different name in the faraway future under guidance of S/E.
CHEERS ALL.

[airedale]

Back to 1860: I was watching the TV programme "who do you think that you are" last night. The young woman looking for her family tree had traced it back the north-east of England. One of her family had suffered in a coal mine accident that caused 260 deaths. The huge beam on the mine's beam engine had fractured and fallen down the mine shaft, thus blocking access and air to the mine. The miners were gassed. There was only one access.
The official enquiry into the accident recommended that in future no mine should be built without at least two accesses and exits.
I presume that is still the case in the UK. Why is it not the law here?

[Balance]

Back to 1860: I was watching the TV programme "who do you think that you are" last night. The young woman looking for her family tree had traced it back the north-east of England. One of her family had suffered in a coal mine accident that caused 260 deaths. The huge beam on the mine's beam engine had fractured and fallen down the mine shaft, thus blocking access and air to the mine. The miners were gassed. There was only one access.
The official enquiry into the accident recommended that in future no mine should be built without at least two accesses and exits.
I presume that is still the case in the UK. Why is it not the law here?

Because New Zealanders do not like to be sheep and follow others.

They like to make their own mistakes and then, change the laws to suit.

[Balance]

Because New Zealanders do not like to be sheep and follow others.

They like to make their own mistakes and then, change the laws to suit.

But of course, ultimately they are sheep - just sheep late to the slaughter.

[winner69]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10822871

Seems like a lot of overtime was worked

[Monkey Poms]

Report of the enquiry out next week, should be interesting.


Pike River commission’s f indings due next week
By Laura Mills and APNZ
The Royal Commission report into the Pike River Mine tragedy was to be symbolically handed to the Governor-General today, at Government House.
It will not be publicly released until early next week, after it has gone to the families of the 29 victims.
The release marks the end of a long journey for the families, who attended the first public hearing in Greymouth in July 2011.
Commission chairman Justice Graham Panckhurst was expected at Government House this afternoon to hand over the report. From there it will go to the secretary of Internal Affairs, on to the Auditor-General Chris Finlayson, and then the rest of the Government.
Prime Minister John Key said officials and ministers would consider the report this week before it goes to Cabinet, on Monday.
“I know there will be a great deal of interest in the report — particularly from the families of the deceased men and the West Coast community.
“Once the Government has released the report, Cabinet will need to consider it.”
Mr Key said the Cabinet intended to release the report next week, first to the families of the men lost in the tragedy and then to the public.
The Government’s response to the report would be released at the same time.
Lawyers for some ex-Pike River Coal Ltd directors, including Peter Whittall, recently failed in their bid to get the commission to reconvene to hear further evidence.
Their lawyers may still be able to ask the Governor-General to limit the publication of the full report, at least until their clients have read it.
However, as of this morning the Government was not aware of a challenge to its release.
Mr Whittall is reportedly concerned that the report could unfairly prejudice his right to a fair trial.
However, the High Court recently ruled that health and safety charges against Mr Whittall would be heard by a judge, not a jury.

[Balance]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/7905701/Charge-Pike-River-bosses-families-say

"Worst mining disaster in 96 years."

"The Pike River tragedy was described during the inquiry as "a homicide investigation of huge proportions", involving more than 200 witnesses being interviewed with another 170 still to be spoken to. A police spokesman said yesterday their investigation was ongoing and it was not known how long it would take."

"The inquiry heard:

allegations of workplace bullying;

a report showing gas levels spiked to explosive levels six times in five days,

a month before the mine exploded; evidence from one former mining operator who left the company fearing the mine could explode at any moment;

"impossible" workloads facing mines inspectors; a lack of enforcement action;

plastic bags placed over gas sensors; a lax safety attitude encouraged by production bonuses;

potentially flammable gas mixtures in an electrical substation;

and safety systems inside the mine being bypassed."

[Balance]

No information provided to the market and shareholders at that time that coal quality was sub-par :

"Mount referred Whittall to evidence that in September 2010, NZOG was advised that Pike was about to run out of cash, with an expected shortfall of $20-24 million.

One reason was that one of its shareholders – an Indian coking coal company – had been sent a shipment of coal from Pike that failed to meet specifications, and was refusing to take any further below-spec coal in the short term.

This meant Pike’s next shipment of coal would be delayed until December 2010, contributing to the financial shortfall.

Pike was planning a capital raising but expected to run out of cash before that was done."

[Balance]

"Pike River’s initial estimates the mine would produce more than a million tonnes of coal a year by 2008 were unrealistic; it had only shipped a total of 42,000 tonnes."

95.8% below projections - great management of PRC, isn't it?

[Xerof]

Gordon needs to be extradited

[Marilyn Munroe]

The Royal Commissions report discussed the attitude of some of the staff towards explosive gasses.

If this attitude was caused by not knowing or being told of the dangers I recommend that any beginners going underground visit the Stillwater Cemetery and view the mass grave from from the Brunner Mining Disaster. Viewing the grave will leave you in no doubt of the consequences of a build up of explosive gasses.

Boop boop de do

Marilyn

[iceman]

This from the Stuff website yesterday. These guys have no morals !

" Pike River Coal's former directors, now serving on the boards of listed companies in New Zealand, Australia and India, all neglect to disclose their roles with Pike River in their online biographies.

The Pike River directors, whose leadership was damned in the Pike River Royal Commission report, released last week, were paid a collective $1.18 million in fees in the four financial years to the end of June 2010.

That failure to disclose has brought a strong reaction from one fund manager.

"I struggle to see how they can feel they were willing to accept the fees and now they are quite happy to omit it," Chris Swasbrook from Elevation Capital said.

In 2009 a furore was unleashed after it was reported that directors who had served on the boards of collapsed finance companies were failing to mention that in their biographies on the websites of listed companies which they later represented.

Then a member of the NZX sub-listing committee which reviews new prospectuses, Swasbrook launched a stinging attack on the likes of Greg Muir, at the time executive chairman of children's clothing company Pumpkin Patch, and others for failing to acknowledge their roles with failed finance companies in public biographies.

Muir did not seek re-election to Pumpkin Patch's board the following year, saying despite the company's then "stellar performance" his leadership was drawing attention away from the business itself.

Last week Swasbrook extended his disclosure criticisms to former directors of Pike River Coal.

On November 19, 2010, an explosion in the underground coal mine, where ventilation systems were found to be inadequate to prevent spikes of the explosive gas methane, killed 29 people.

But in the director profiles posted on the websites of the listed companies where they now hold board seats they trumpet only their successes.

Pike River chairman John Dow, who held the role from from February 22, 2007 to September 30, 2011, and was paid $80,000 each year, is also chairman of NZAX-listed Glass Earth Gold. He describes himself on Glass Earth's website as: "A geologist with 41 years' experience as a successful greenfields explorer, exploration manager, and mining executive in New Zealand, South East Asia, the United States and Latin America."

He goes on to say: "His most recent executive appointment was as chairman and managing director of Newmont Australia Limited, the Australian subsidiary of one of the world's largest gold producers. Mr Dow is a director of the AusIMM and holds various other roles in the mining industry."
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Nowhere is Pike River mentioned.

Swasbrook, who believes markets can function properly only when given full and frank information, said there were no stock exchange rules governing the way directors presented such profiles.

A spokesman for Dow issued a statement to say: "All of the director profiles on the website to which you refer are brief summaries that refer to the directors' former roles only in general terms. Mr Dow has never sought to hide his involvement with Pike River. When the tragedy occurred, he went immediately to Greymouth to meet with the families and others and made a number of public statements, including on television. He subsequently gave evidence in person to the royal commission which was widely reported. More recently he was one of three former directors who made a statement following the release of the commission's report."

Tony Radford, a director at NZX-listed company New Zealand Oil and Gas (NZOG), was chairman until the end of last month and continues to serve on the NZOG health and safety committee. He was also a director of Pike River from January 27, 1992 to June 10, 2011, and was paid $45,000 a year.

His NZOG biography reads: "Tony Radford ACA, is a founding director of New Zealand Oil & Gas Limited, which was established in 1981. Tony used his accounting background to build a career in the petroleum and mining industries. Since retiring as CEO of NZOG in 2007 he has continued as non-executive Chairman of the company. He is also a director of Pan Pacific Petroleum. Tony is a fellow of the Australian Institute of Company Directors. He is a member of the HSE and Operational Risk Committee."

They are not the only ones coy about their Pike River positions.

Pike River was part-owned by two Indian companies, Gujarat NRE and Saurashtra. Gujarat is listed on the Indian Stock Exchange, and its director Arun Kumar Jagatramka was on the Pike River board from July 17, 2007 until September 29, 2011. He was paid $45,000 a year, but his biography does not mention Pike River, instead dubbing him "a visionary of rare distinction" trumpeting his work in Australia, but not mentioning his connection to New Zealand.

Jagatramka is also a director of Shree Minerals, which is listed on the Australian sharemarket. Again there is no mention of Pike River.

Shree boasts a second former Pike River director, Sanjay Kumar Loyalka, who served from November 25, 2009 to September 29, 2011, but he too does not mention Pike River.

Saurashtra's Dipak Agarwalla was on the Pike River board from September 26, 2005 to September 30, 2011 and was also paid $45,000 a year, but his official biography only reveals him to be: "The visionary person who dreamed something different and today the reality is in front of the world. By his sincere dedication, today group reached at (sic) the apex and will climb higher and higher."

A spokesman for NZOG said directors would be required to reveal all past directorships an investor would consider material only in prospectuses.

"We are required to disclose relevant directorships that affect the shareholders' immediate interests. If there was a prospectus out there we would probably be required to show all sorts of issues of past directorships," he said.

The spokesman gave the assurance that just because health and safety at Pike River had been found to be inadequate during a period when NZOG's then chairman was a director, did not mean NZOG was not operating safely. The company was not in operational charge of any facilities, he added."

- © Fairfax NZ News

[whirly]

Conrad John Adams, 43, Greymouth, New Zealand
Glenn Peter Cruse, 35, Cobden, New Zealand
Allan John Dixon, 59, Rununga, New Zealand
Zen Wodin Drew, 21, Greymouth, New Zealand
Christopher Peter Duggan, 31, Greymouth, New Zealand
Joseph Ray Dunbar, 17, Greymouth, New Zealand
John Leonard Hale, 45, Ruatapu, New Zealand
Daniel Thomas Herk, 36, Rununga, New Zealand
David Mark Hoggart, 33, Foxton, New Zealand
Richard Bennett Holling, 41, Blackball, New Zealand
Andrew David Hurren, 32, Greymouth, New Zealand
Riki Steve Keane, 28, Greymouth, New Zealand
Terry David Kitchin, 41, Rununga, New Zealand
Samuel Peter Mackie, 26, Greymouth, New Zealand
Francis Skiddy Marden, 41, Rununga, New Zealand
Michael Nolan Hanmer Monk, 23, Greymouth, New Zealand
Stuart Gilbert Mudge, 31, Rununga, New Zealand
Kane Barry Nieper, 33, Greymouth, New Zealand
Peter O'Neill, 55, Rununga, New Zealand
Milton John Osborne, 54, Ngahere, New Zealand
Brendan John Palmer, 27, Cobden, New Zealand
Benjamin David Rockhouse, 21, Greymouth, New Zealand
Blair David Sims, 28, Greymouth, New Zealand
Keith Thomas Valli, 62, Wairio, New Zealand
Malcolm Campbell, 25, Greymouth, New Zealand (British)
Peter James Rodger, 40, Greymouth, New Zealand (British)
Jacobus (Koos) Albertus Jonker, 47, Cobden, New Zealand (South African)
William John Joynson, 49, Dunollie, Australia
Joshua Adam Ufer, 25, Australia

If you could trap a sound
In the heart of Mother Earth
From the cool depths underground

What would that sound be?
A laugh, a whisper, a spoken last word
A gasp, a supplication, a plea

If you could trap a vision by the eye
Seen, would espy the grasp of comfort
From one man to the other
Brothers in their faith…..freed

If you could dispel the darkness with a flame
Or feel their inspiration ignited by a prayer
You would have seen the angels that came
And moved amongst the men down there

[Monkey Poms]

Don Elders resigns from Solid Energy.The West Coast will have the prospect of serious unemployment problems arising within Solid Energy( possibly terminal) if his successor fails to quickly rectify the mess Elders has left behind.How long can the government sustain the magnitude of red ink on Solid Energy's balance sheet?
Don Elders has been prominent in past discussions on this forum as many posters thought his methods to be devious, such as
the way the Pike's Ikamatua rail loading facility was eventually purchased. His method in buying up the lease from landowners,
was designed to frighten any prospective buyers away from PRC.

Solid Energy took advantage and purchased the coal stocks at a distressing period of time for Pike. The price the coal was sold
for was always surrounded in secrecy. Piecing the numbers together, it came to something in the region of US$ 111.60 per tonne,
this against the going rate for coking coal at the time of the sale being US$ 300 per tonne. Don questioned the quality of Pike's coal. In my view there was never an issue with the quality. The issue was SE sold their own coal probably under long term contracts way under the US$ 300 tonne spot price achievable at the time.

Solid Energy's expensive efforts to make lignite briquettes looks like becoming an expensive failure. Lack of customers for the product, (environmentally friendly product made out of lignite, economically produced)? A blind man could see that this was not feasible.

Recommendation to the Government:
1) Headquarters of SE should be in Greymouth (not Christchurch).
2) The new CEO should be a mining engineer (not a Civil engineer).
3) Mothball or scrap the briquetting plant (not economically viable).
4) It is preferable for the CEO not to surround himself with Yes-men,
he needs a counter-balance ( Balance would be perfect).
5) Suggest that the Government, due to the past record of SE, sell
the Pike mine back to the Receiver for $1. With consent to
Open cast the mine.

Monkey Poms

[the machine]

Hi Monkey Poms, doubt if that will happen


Any thoughts of when one can claim the tax loss for the cost of prc shares?

best regards

M

[iceman]

Hi Monkey Poms, doubt if that will happen


Any thoughts of when one can claim the tax loss for the cost of prc shares?

best regards

M

My accountant tells me they will claim it for me for the current tax year ending 31/03/13

[the machine]

My accountant tells me they will claim it for me for the current tax year ending 31/03/13

thanks iceman

M

[bung5]

How are you claiming a tax loss on PRC. Are you saying you are trading short term?

[iceman]

How are you claiming a tax loss on PRC. Are you saying you are trading short term?

I have 2 trading accounts. 1 for long term holds (non taxable) and 1 for shorter term or speculative. My PRC shares were held in the speculative account on which I pay tax on realised profits or claim tax losses on realised deficits.

[the machine]

How are you claiming a tax loss on PRC. Are you saying you are trading short term?

being in AU I can claim a tax loss for shares bought over the years, including 40,000 2 months before the mine blew up

M

[Pumice]

being in AU I can claim a tax loss for shares bought over the years, including 40,000 2 months before the mine blew up

M

My understanding is they can only offset realised capital gains in Aus?
Is that correct?
I bought my GF some GNS stock. Which bacame worthless (the stock anyway).


I thought in NZ you were either a trader or not, I didnt know you could split accounts.

[iceman]

My understanding is they can only offset realised capital gains in Aus?
Is that correct?
I bought my GF some GNS stock. Which bacame worthless (the stock anyway).


I thought in NZ you were either a trader or not, I didnt know you could split accounts.

No problems having 2 accounts. My wife s conservative, I am risky

[the machine]

My understanding is they can only offset realised capital gains in Aus?
Is that correct?
I bought my GF some GNS stock. Which bacame worthless (the stock anyway).


I thought in NZ you were either a trader or not, I didnt know you could split accounts.


if the stock is still real then you can't claim, but if it becomes nothing then one should be able to claim

in past years i have made a profit from share trading, so i should be able to claim a loss

M

[Monkey Poms]

In the Uk I could offset the Pike loss against future capital gains, if Pike is proven to be a total loss.

We all could be on a sticky wicket if the Revenue revues the deal agreed between the Receiver and Solid Energy.
Who will be entitled to any future funds becoming available for distribution should SE reopen the mine and pay back PRC through the Receiver? Ref tolling fee tonnage, based on yearly production.
Remember I once told the forum members to save their Pike share certificates for the benefit of their grand children?

Monkey Poms.

[Monkey Poms]

M I also doubt that it will happen,even though Solid Energy (government) paid the receiver 7m for the mine.
In real terms it cost them zero. 7m is very close to the true value (lost) of the coal tonnage purchased by SE and surrendered by Pike's Receiver.

The good thing for the mine, and the prospect of creating jobs on the West Coast,should the government give the mine back
to the Receiver for a dollar, he would not have any more devious characters trying to thwart his progress in maybe attempting to resurrect the mine.

Best Regards
Monkey Poms.

[minimoke]

In the Uk I could offset the Pike loss against future capital gains, if Pike is proven to be a total loss.

We all could be on a sticky wicket if the Revenue revues the deal agreed between the Receiver and Solid Energy.
Who will be entitled to any future funds becoming available for distribution should SE reopen the mine and pay back PRC through the Receiver? Ref tolling fee tonnage, based on yearly production.
Remember I once told the forum members to save their Pike share certificates for the benefit of their grand children?

Monkey Poms.

Hmm – just a thought or two.

To claim a tax loss I’d have thought a PRC holder would have to show they purchased their shares with the intent to resell. From what I have read on this thread no one had this intent – I can see no where anyone contemplated paying CGT on their gains on the eventual sale of their PRC shares.

To claim a loss you would need to show what that loss was. At the moment PRC is still around. It’s in receivership but once out of receivership it could continue trading. In reality I suspect it will be wound up.

How long do you wait to realise that loss. It will take at least 6 years for FTX holder to finalise their losses. With the sale of the mine assets PRC isn’t as complex now so the receivers could be out relatively soon. Security holders have probably got as much as they can realistically expect.

I suspect the receiver ship will be well and truly over by the time SE hits the coal production payment threshold. SE may not even be around by then. They have closed their own mines, laid off tons of staff and their CEO has walked. They have other resources which are likely to be exploited well before the Pike mine is looked at.

I will also lay odds on there being a better chance of an asteroid hitting the west coast and opening up pike than SE doing the job.

If you still want a slice of the Pike action I’ll also lay odds that you will have a better chance by buying up SE in the government SOE sell off.

[Kees]

SE to be wound up according to damien oconner in question time yesterday( SE may not even be around by then) could be correct.

[the machine]

thanks minimoke, me thinks if PRC are still in recivership, then the shares are still real, so can't claim.
PRC need to be liquidated before can claim the loss.

anyway, its a problem for my accountant

M

[Monkey Poms]

Hmm – just a thought or two.
..

If you still want a slice of the Pike action I’ll also lay odds that you will have a better chance by buying up SE in the government SOE sell off.

Minimoke If I was offered the whole of Solid Energy for a Dollar, I would decline the offer, and keep my Dollar,I could not afford the future losses SE are about to incur.
Take a look at my thoughts about Solid Energy's briquetting plant in September 2011, page 596.

I am trying to work out who was the most useless CEO, Gordon Ward of Pike River Coal or Don Elders of Solid Energy.

Monkey Poms.

[minimoke]

Minimoke If I was offered the whole of Solid Energy for a Dollar, I would decline the offer, and keep my Dollar,I could not afford the future losses SE are about to incur.
Take a look at my thoughts about Solid Energy's briquetting plant in September 2011, page 596.

I am trying to work out who was the most useless CEO, Gordon Ward of Pike River Coal or Don Elders of Solid Energy.

Monkey Poms.
SE have just sold their biofuel business to two managers. I suspect they sold it for more than a dollar - though perhaps not much more. It was probably part of a redundancy settlement so the actual sale figures may not be that transparent. You might have scored a 10 bagger there if you had redistributed the retun on sale to shareholder.

As we have seen in so many collpases the sharehloders do not bare the losses of the company - its the creditors who do. All you would have had at stake was a dollar. In defense of Don Elder he did at least return a dividend to his shareholders. And he brought the assets of Pike mine - if these are so valuable in your mind that can't have been a bad move.

[bung5]

Minimoke If I was offered the whole of Solid Energy for a Dollar, I would decline the offer, and keep my Dollar,I could not afford the future losses SE are about to incur.
Take a look at my thoughts about Solid Energy's briquetting plant in September 2011, page 596.

I am trying to work out who was the most useless CEO, Gordon Ward of Pike River Coal or Don Elders of Solid Energy.

Monkey Poms.

But if you owned SE for $1 you wouldn't be liable for any of the losses yourself. Claim your 1 million dollar a year salary until the company was bankrupt right.

[minimoke]

Take a look at my thoughts about Solid Energy's briquetting plant in September 2011, page 596.

.

One of the reasons the SE SOE sale caught my attention was not so much the briquetting plant but the fact that SE holds over 3,000 hectares of prime dairy land in Southland. Its got dairy farms on it which gives them a $5m holding in Fonterra. If you had $10m you could pop down there and pick up around 250 hectatres of dairy farm land. SE spent $70m on their land.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Pike River Coal still being talked about all these years later. Gordon Ward used to be talked about as a hero in here; any criticism was batted away. There was always ample evidence he was useless. Then Peter Whitall got the top job and overnight he was the new hero, leading everyone to the promised land. Ward was forgotten in a flash. They only every got 5,000 tonnes of coal away over all those farcical years when the mine keep putting it's hand out with capital raising after capital raising. The disparity between the original time-frame for full production & the total cost and where they both blew out to was ludicrous. I remember I started to do some digging on the sub-standard equipment that they were using, and posted my findings here, and always got rubbished. That sub standard equipment was indicative of the corner cutting that was going on from a company who had got everything wrong, right from the intial costings. Right from the geologist who's warnings were ignored (he was treated like a putz) right from the get go. This was all before the tragedy occurred.
Pike River Coal is a case of investors burying their heads in the sand and failing to hold management to account. This includes NZOG in particular. Sheer incompetence was allowed to go unpunished and was actually encouraged because no-one did anything about it. Ward isn't even fit to run a supermarket. I feel very uneasy that I was - for a time - an investor in this mine. I know all the greedy people from the top down to the lowest investor let things run on too far because of the mirage of millions of tonnes of coal - no-one asked the hard questions and who ultimately carried the can? The miners who got blown to kingdom come.
How this company was allowed to get away with what they did is very disturbing - there should have been inspectors all over this mine. The inspectors were probably all over mines with a proven history of safety run by reputable companies while these cowboys got away with blue murder.
With the way NZ companies seem to run for the benefit of the boards & top executives, I don't see too much to invest in. Too much is kept from the sheeple who are there for the fleecing.

[Monkey Poms]

But if you owned SE for $1 you wouldn't be liable for any of the losses yourself. Claim your 1 million dollar a year salary until the company was bankrupt right.

Bung 5, if I bought SE and the assets of SE for a dollar, I would be expected to incur the liability of future losses, last year NZ$400m, (next year and the year after)? There are substantial, but still not enough, assets in the company to pay for SE financial losses on that scale and magnitude over any length of time. There may be plenty of potential board members and supposedly top executives out there who would chip in a dollar for the chance over a period of time to earn the big salaries,quite content until the lid comes off. Then who pays for the mess they leave behind? The list would be long.

Monkey Poms

[minimoke]

Looks like we wont be able to get pike through solid energy. SE,s books appear a lot worse than thought. Farms are being flogged off. They may want to quit pike for a dollar.

[iceman]

Looks like we wont be able to get pike through solid energy. SE,s books appear a lot worse than thought. Farms are being flogged off. They may want to quit pike for a dollar.

Dr Elder paid out $ 20 million in staff bonuses to himself and his staff over the last 2 years, and now the Government has to step in and try to save it from receivership. I wonder if the anti privatisation brigade will keep low now about the Government being in this type of business ! Somehow I doubt it

[Monkey Poms]

When Solid Energy posted profits in the region of 40m a couple of years ago, I said on this forum that it was a poor performance
by Solid Energy. It is a lot easier to market good quality coal,as against inferior quality coal. When the market for coking coal slides,SE are fortunate in having excellent qualities of coals in their portfolio.
My personal view on the sad situation after reading the latest news regarding Solid Energy ( I have been involved in the coal trade
for a very long time ),is as follows:
Government should hold an enquiry into the details of contracts regarding the sale of coal at possibly well below the market price
as it stood a year either side of the peak price of coking coal. The sales tonnage would cover approximately two million tonnes.
Have SE underpriced its coal production during the period mentioned,instead of making the most of the period of high coal prices,
and banking the surplus for a rainy day?
Monkey Poms.

[Monkey Poms]

[QUOTE=minimoke;393373]Hmm – just a thought

I will also lay odds on there being a better chance of an asteroid hitting the west coast and opening up pike than SE doing the job.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An asteroid just missed Pike then travelled on to hit Russia,right in the Urals.
I don't think SE will mine Pike.

Pike's receiver is now in a strong position,the imaginary offer to the Government to buy the mine for a dollar comes with strings attached.
Minimoke, bet you could guess what those strings would be.

Monkey Poms

[iceman]

When Solid Energy posted profits in the region of 40m a couple of years ago, I said on this forum that it was a poor performance
by Solid Energy. It is a lot easier to market good quality coal,as against inferior quality coal. When the market for coking coal slides,SE are fortunate in having excellent qualities of coals in their portfolio.
My personal view on the sad situation after reading the latest news regarding Solid Energy ( I have been involved in the coal trade
for a very long time ),is as follows:
Government should hold an enquiry into the details of contracts regarding the sale of coal at possibly well below the market price
as it stood a year either side of the peak price of coking coal. The sales tonnage would cover approximately two million tonnes.
Have SE underpriced its coal production during the period mentioned,instead of making the most of the period of high coal prices,
and banking the surplus for a rainy day?
Monkey Poms.

MP, your comments on this forum have always been enlightening and obviously made by someone who knows the industry. I have always appreciated them very much. You have now been proven to have been absolutely correct about Dr Elder and Solid Energy. Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us.

[iceman]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10868232

This in the Herald this morning !

[minimoke]

It is not going to happen. National hasn't looked at selective logging which is a way of diversifying the coasts economy. Look for next year's elections when there is a good chance the green vote will increase, Maori vote head back to Labour and national not looking like they have any natural coalition partners. The population is moving away from the idea of state assert sales and I suspect they will have little appetite to stir up digging in a national park.

That being said Nick Smith it's looking at putting a gondola through a national park as well as digging a tunnel. If these get traction there might be an appetite to open cast but I doubt national could get the votes running both a gondola and a mine in national parks.

[iceman]

The population is moving away from the idea of state assert sales and I suspect they will have little appetite to stir up digging in a national park.
.

I am not so sure. A poll being run on stuff today has close to 60% saying they will buy or would buy if they had the money. Not the first poll with similar results ! Suspect the opposition is flogging a dead horse on this one !

[minimoke]

There is a difference between agreeing, or not, with selling crown assets and indicating support for buying. . I may, or not, be opposed to the sale of assets but I absolutely support buying them when they go on the block. National should not take buy indicators as acceptance of their policy

[Monkey Poms]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10868232

This in the Herald this morning !
.................................................. ....................
Thanks for this Iceman,nearly missed it.I am now on my way back to the UK after my annual visit to NZ. After reading David Fisher's article in the Herald this morning i nipped out of my hotel room and then paced out 12m equivalent to the top end of the thickness of the coal seam at Pike. Working that 12mtr coal seam ( equal to 7 men standing on each others' shoulders) is and would be an enormous challenge for any mining engineer and mine workers.
Notice this passage in the article (quote):
.................................................. .................................................. .............................
It found the amount of coal available was "much lower than that indicated by Pike River Coal" with the most abundant and easiest to access deposits at a "relatively shallow" depth of 50m to 150m.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................

When we were discussing the overburden on this forum a few years ago, some posters thought that it was too deep for open cast. Now it's thought there's a relatively shallow depth.
A spokesman for SE once said that the last thing he wanted to see was large earthmoving machines open casting the Pike River mine. Not 100% sure of who he was but 99% sure it was Don Elders.
Open cast and big plant machinery is exactly what is required on this site. It's the only safe way. It's not safe to risk any more lives using underground methods. It may also turn the Government's current liability (SE) into an asset if they do the job right.

The opposition to open cast Pike reminds me of the doggedness shown by the American NRA in resisting change to their "right to bear arms". Nothing gets done to make a real change, which could save lives, but they seem happy to cling to their outdated Constitutional Right to shoot each other.

Tony Kokshoorn and the majority of the people he serves would like to see jobs created and opencast mining at Pike. If it's on Reserve/Conservation land then so be it.

Monkey Poms.

[minimoke]

Mp. Kookdhorn is mayor and has arguably little influence at national level.

On the other hand Damien O'Connor is the elected Labour mp with a 2500 majority.

it's more correct to say west coast voters prefer preservation of the parks particularly if you add in the 2000 Green votes.

O'Connor isn't a great fan of unions either.

would need to go to the election next year on the platform of open cast in national parks to see if they have a mandate and to see if there has been any change in the overall view that minerals shouldn't be extracted from national parks.

National are dipping their toes again but you will have to wait for the gondola and tunnel decisions first.

[Bixbite]

A query from my accountant:-

"Has or when was a statement made by the administrators stating that the shares (PRC) were of no value."

Can anyone tell me where can I get this answer?

Bixbite

[Silverlight]

A query from my accountant:-

"Has or when was a statement made by the administrators stating that the shares (PRC) were of no value."

Can anyone tell me where can I get this answer?

Bixbite

PWC have not explicitly said that the shareholders in Pike River have zero value however they have stated that unsecured creditors will not receive anymore payments, and as they rank ahead of shareholders, then the inference is that the shares have no value.

http://www.pwc.co.nz/pike-river-coal (http://www.pwc.co.nz/pike-river-coal/)

[Bixbite]

PWC have not explicitly said that the shareholders in Pike River have zero value however they have stated that unsecured creditors will not receive anymore payments, and as they rank ahead of shareholders, then the inference is that the shares have no value.

http://www.pwc.co.nz/pike-river-coal (http://www.pwc.co.nz/pike-river-coal/)

Many thanks Silverlight. I got the same information on this Monday my accountant had read it. But this morning he still asked me that question .

I'll email him about your advice. Thanks again.

Bixbite

[iceman]

My accountant is satisfied that public statements made by PWC justify a total write down of these shares and we will be doing so in the accounts for the year ending on Sunday.


A query from my accountant:-

"Has or when was a statement made by the administrators stating that the shares (PRC) were of no value."

Can anyone tell me where can I get this answer?



Bixbite

[minimoke]

So pike is now up for $110, 000 reparations for each victim ($3m) under the safety prosecutions. There is also $760, 000 fines to pay.

Hopefully now prc holders can truly put to bed any hope of recovering anything from their foray into this company and reflect on the judges decision which included how poorly run this company was.

Shame there isn't enough in the pot to pay the reparations. Perhaps holders should put what I bet are very short arms onto their very deep pockets.

[winner69]

So pike is now up for $110, 000 reparations for each victim ($3m) under the safety prosecutions. There is also $760, 000 fines to pay.

Hopefully now prc holders can truly put to bed any hope of recovering anything from their foray into this company and reflect on the judges decision which included how poorly run this company was.

Shame there isn't enough in the pot to pay the reparations. Perhaps holders should put what I bet are very short arms onto their very deep pockets.

Doesn't work like that mini .... shareholders here have said they have no moral (or monetary) responsibility/obligations for such things .... in other words they weren't really the 'owners' of Pike.


Doubt whether many shareholders even care about the 29 innocent ones (as the tee shirt said) ...... prob only remember their own loss

[Balance]

Doesn't work like that mini .... shareholders here have said they have no moral (or monetary) responsibility/obligations for such things .... in other words they weren't really the 'owners' of Pike.


Doubt whether many shareholders even care about the 29 innocent ones (as the tee shirt said) ...... prob only remember their own loss

Judge made the point that she is satisfied there are resources available to pay the fines and reparations - NZOG and directors.

The directors were paid very handsomely for directing Pike River which into total destruction with 29 deaths.

[the machine]

Judge made the point that she is satisfied there are resources available to pay the fines and reparations - NZOG and directors.

The directors were paid very handsomely for directing Pike River which into total destruction with 29 deaths.

for the directors to pay the fines via their insurance, then I expect they would have to be charged and found guilty before the insurance would pay out.
am no expert in this though.
but since no directors charged then its probably unlikely this possible avenue is open.
for directors to pay out of their own pocket that is another matter and who knows what will happen there.

see there is comment that since nzo received a large repayment of their secured debt - from prc insurance, then they should cough up.
interesting there is no comment that I have seen re creditors ranked ahead of nzo and repaid 100%.
the big one was the bank I recall

if the $110k per victim is not paid along with the fines, then one wonders how the shell company prc can be stopped from being liquidated, along with the possible $25m if solid energy reopen the mine - once liquidated then any chance of the $25m is gone - not that I think the mine will reopen within many many years.
if nzo want to try and hang onto the hope of $25m then they are dreaming imo

am sure there will be a lot more to play out on this and I would not be surprised if nzo paid it all out on an ex gratia basis with no liablity

M

[brucey09]

Snrs
No possible pay anything until proof of who is or how caused.

[Robomo]

There have been considerable histrionics in the media about the right to compensation for the 29 miners. Even the judge exhibited an emotional breakdown of sorts delivering her verdict. Let me put my alternative and dispassionate view to the whole saga.

Compensation: The government should certainly not be paying anything to the miners or their families. To do so would open the way for every other person killed because of the substantial fault of other(s) to claim something from the Government. ACC was formed in part to eliminate these highly expensive and emotionally draining personal injury and accidental death cases. If only 1 miner was killed I doubt that there would be the media frenzy there is with 29.

Personal Responsibility: From the evidence presented there were several instances of contraband being taken into the mine against H & S regulations. H & S is a joint responsibility and every miner should be looking out for others, even if that means 'dobbing in' somewhere who is flouting the H & S rules. That did not happen and I just wonder how much the miners themselves contributed to the apparently casualness about H & S - seeing that the miners are people that H & S is primarily aimed at in a coal mine.

Personal Responsibility (2): Mining is a dangerous job. Every miner knows this but they do the job because it is well paid. With that in mind, how many of those miners, and their spouses, took out life or disability insurance to guard against the financial ruin that would inevitably occur to their spouse and children. If these healthy youngish men took out insurance it would have been at relatively low cost and at least eased the burden of loss. I've had varying amounts of insurance over the years (more or less depending on financial commitment at the time, children at home, business costs etc.) as I would certainly not be expecting the government to give my widow or business creditors any ex gratia payment if I was killed by a drunk driver.

Directors and Shareholders: It has been suggested that these people pay the families of the miners and presumably the Judge thinks that too (although she did not actually say it). Unless the Directors have been criminally negligent in how they have directed the operation be run then there is no case that they should. Shareholders are only that; they have no say in the running of the mine and by any definition have no say in any operational matters. They are at the end of the line when it comes to payment. Since the explosion I have not had any letters or any communication from anyone at PRC or from the government, miners, Kokshoorn or anyone else. It's only now that shareholders are mentioned now that the money has run out. I won't be contributing.

Disaster Fund(s): What happened to the millions of dollars contributed to the various funds setup after the explosion? I've not seen any summary; audited or not. It was meant for the miners and their families - how much actually got to them and how much was siphoned off in fees and 'consultancy fees' etc. At least some money got to the families, which is more than most families would get whose income producing husband was killed in a car crash.

The Judge: The Judge is supposed to be a dispassionate deliverer of justice. She did not appear to be so with her emotional breakdown and comments. Disgraceful; I expect better of our Judiciary, regardless of the circumstances.

I'm involved in Health and Safety and have done occasional work in mines so I have some idea of the working conditions, hazards and financial rewards of mining. I had some involvement years ago with Western Mining at the Olympic Dam copper/uranium mine in South Australia. If anyone broke the rules it was instant dismissal, no second chances - and the union was in favour of this. Everyone was expected to be continually checking everything else and their fellow workers to ensure a safe operation. If you found to have ignored something and not reported it then dismissal or warning (only one, next one was dismissal) was the penalty. Needless to say, rules were obeyed even if the whole plant had to close because of a problem - this would be the financial cost to everyone but rules are rules. Injuries were extremely rare and mostly minor strains and sprains.

Interested to hear what others think.

[percy]

I recently viewed The Greymouth Miners' Memorial.
398 lives lost in the last 145 years.[including The Pike miners]

[macduffy]

I take your points, Robomo, and pretty much agree with your view. The only lingering doubt I have is over the govt's, and therefore taxpayers' moral responsibility in that it seems that the safety and inspection regime had been weakened considerably in the immediately preceding years. Is there a parallel here to the Cave Creek "liability"?

[brucey09]

Snr. Robomo
You are a Kiwi with the sense.

[digger]

Good comments Robomo ,but I to do not agree with you on govt liability. The Dept of Labor had the power to shut the mine at any time,and it must be accepted that responsibility goes with power to act. Otherwise I find your comments more or less spot on. Cheers.

[brucey09]

Snrs.
Why first directors leave? Please?

[duncan macgregor]

Share holders are unaware of day to day safety levels in any company. The people making the decisions which include the workers, are the ones to blame. Miners should be experienced enough to know about safety in the mine, and have the free choice to do it or not. The people that I feel sorry for were the innocent new commers to the game, who relied on management and fellow workers for their safety. I knew enough about mining to not invest in that mine simply because it looked like an accident waiting to happen. It was run by incompetants from start to finish, one shot through to Australia three months before it happened after fleecing the company for as much as he could screw it. Read back on this thread and count the warnings. Should have been open cast mine blame the stupid greenies for stuffing that up. They prefer to save a stupid snail population rather than see people prosper in gainful employment. Get the money paid to the greedy directors and share it with the victims with the least experienced getting the most. Macdunk

[the machine]

DM, long time no hear, trust all is well.

M

[duncan macgregor]

DM, long time no hear, trust all is well.

Mretired from the scene when the metal markets started to show sell signals, will make a come back when or if it changes. Otherwise fishing and bowling keeps me fully occupied. Macdunk

[minimoke]

Let me put my alternative and dispassionate view to the whole saga.

Compensation: The government should certainly not be paying anything to the miners or their families. To do so would open the way for every other person killed because of the substantial fault of other(s) to claim something from the Government. ACC was formed in part to eliminate these highly expensive and emotionally draining personal injury and accidental death cases. If only 1 miner was killed I doubt that there would be the media frenzy there is with 29.
In relation to this safety conviction the govt should not pay compo. They were not a party to these proceedings. Might have been a didn't matter of someone had managed to conjure up a safety prosecution against dept of labour.

ACC has generally removed the right to sue. But nothing to stop individuals bringing a private prosecution or sue where they have no ACC cover.


Personal Responsibility: From the evidence presented there were several instances of contraband being taken into the mine against H & S regulations. This was a prosecution against PRC not employees. If prc wanted to argue that in mitigation they could have but they didn't.


Personal Responsibility (2): Mining is a dangerous job. Every miner knows this but they do the job because it is well paid. With that in mind, how many of those miners, and their spouses, took out life or disability insurance to guard against the financial ruin that would inevitably occur to their spouse and children. each employee did have cover paid for by the company which provides for death and injury. Are you suggesting every nz'er in a safety sensitive area should buy extra insurance? If nothing else that would be shifting the risk from employer to employee which is generally contrary to safety management principles as you will know since you have worked in this area.

Iwould certainly not be expecting the government to give my widow or business creditors any ex gratia payment if I was killed by a drunk driver.
Well ACC will pay your widow an ex gratia payment.


Directors and Shareholders: Directors can be prosecuted but I'm not sure why they weren't in this case. The NZOG chairman reckons more should be done to hold directors liable.

Shareholders are liable for debt to the extent of their shareholding. Should there be any value in PRC the reparations will be paid as a priority. So in one sense share holders will pay.


Disaster Fund(s): What happened to the millions of dollars contributed to the various funds setup after the explosion? could have been raised by PRC but wasn't


The Judge: The Judge is supposed to be a dispassionate deliverer of justice. Well that is simply nonsense. Dispassion is a myth and judges are expected to reflect society's outrage.

[Balance]

In relation to this safety conviction the govt should not pay compo. They were not a party to these proceedings. Might have been a didn't matter of someone had managed to conjure up a safety prosecution against dept of labour.

ACC has generally removed the right to sue. But nothing to stop individuals bringing a private prosecution or sue where they have no ACC cover.

This was a prosecution against PRC not employees. If prc wanted to argue that in mitigation they could have but they didn't.

each employee did have cover paid for by the company which provides for death and injury. Are you suggesting every nz'er in a safety sensitive area should buy extra insurance? If nothing else that would be shifting the risk from employer to employee which is generally contrary to safety management principles as you will know since you have worked in this area.

Well ACC will pay your widow an ex gratia payment.

Directors can be prosecuted but I'm not sure why they weren't in this case. The NZOG chairman reckons more should be done to hold directors liable.

Shareholders are liable for debt to the extent of their shareholding. Should there be any value in PRC the reparations will be paid as a priority. So in one sense share holders will pay.

could have been raised by PRC but wasn't

Well that is simply nonsense. Dispassion is a myth and judges are expected to reflect society's outrage.

Bang on, Mini.

Many have forgotten the eternal words of 'morality, accountability, responsibility, justice and compassion.'

[Mr Tommy]

http://www.pikeriverdonations.org.nz/media-releases/

"Each of the 29 family trusts to be established will receive a minimum of $190,000."

The trust has received in excess of 20,000 individual donations and total funds of over $7m. Some of the donations have been tagged for a specific purpose (e.g. a memorial, redundant workers) however the vast majority (approx. $6.5m) have been donated for the purpose of providing financial assistance to the families of the 29 deceased.

[the machine]

http://www.pikeriverdonations.org.nz/media-releases/

"Each of the 29 family trusts to be established will receive a minimum of $190,000."

The trust has received in excess of 20,000 individual donations and total funds of over $7m. Some of the donations have been tagged for a specific purpose (e.g. a memorial, redundant workers) however the vast majority (approx. $6.5m) have been donated for the purpose of providing financial assistance to the families of the 29 deceased.

maybe that's how the magistrate came up with $110k - to round it up to minimum $300k.

hope the victims families have not spent the minimum $190k on legal fees

m

[iceman]

A good article/summary by Brian Gaynor
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10897484

[the machine]

A good article/summary by Brian Gaynor
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10897484

yes a good article on the history and financials - where does ACC come into this with payouts?

M

[minimoke]

yes a good article on the history and financials - where does ACC come into this with payouts?

M
ACC will have paid $5,000 approx for each funeral. Then there is earnings compo to the spouse and dependents. The amount is dependant on the amount of earnings - so the family of the guy who was on his first day at work will get pretty much nothing. Then there is Survivors grants and childcare grants. All up its estimated ACC payments is around $10m

[Marilyn Munroe]

A bit of crystal ball gazing.

I don't believe there will be any fresh attempts to mine the Brunner Seam until there is either a technological advance to take care of the methane problem or the mine can be worked by remote controlled automated machinery.

Boop boop de do

Marilyn

[blackcap]

A bit earlier on Cambell Live there was some "breaking news"... the police are not laying charges. Kokshoorn was briefly on the program, said this was a further blow for the families.

[digger]

A bit earlier on Cambell Live there was some "breaking news"... the police are not laying charges. Kokshoorn was briefly on the program, said this was a further blow for the families.


My point since this PIKE tragedy began is that until the scene is examined by the police there can be no corporate manslaughter, as no causative link to the specific event can be established. The piece in the NZ herald makes this point.
If so much as only one of the 29 miner light up that would have supplied the spark. Cigarette smokers just have to light up. The management can not be everywhere all the time stopping men from harming themselves, and it only takes one.
The mine has to be opened as it is one of NZ greatest tragedy. No other action can be taken until the scene is examined.

[iceman]

These inhumane idiots are the lowest scum on earth !
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10899390

[Balance]

My point since this PIKE tragedy began is that until the scene is examined by the police there can be no corporate manslaughter, as no causative link to the specific event can be established. The piece in the NZ herald makes this point.
If so much as only one of the 29 miner light up that would have supplied the spark. Cigarette smokers just have to light up. The management can not be everywhere all the time stopping men from harming themselves, and it only takes one.
The mine has to be opened as it is one of NZ greatest tragedy. No other action can be taken until the scene is examined.

Overwhelming evidence and catalogue of safety short cuts by Pike River - and Digger still believes that nobody is at fault until the mine is opened!

[blackcap]

Overwhelming evidence and catalogue of safety short cuts by Pike River - and Digger still believes that nobody is at fault until the mine is opened!

Balance, just say for instance a young (or older) miner decided to sneak a ciggie. Who is at fault then?
No disrespect to the dead intended and I don't for a moment think this happened. But we will never really know what the story was or who was at fault. Tragedy is just that, tragedy. Sometimes you cannot or should not apportion blame. It helps no one.

[digger]

Overwhelming evidence and catalogue of safety short cuts by Pike River - and Digger still believes that nobody is at fault until the mine is opened!

At last you have said some thing half correct. After the fact evidence does indeed show the safety was neglected and that is where the mine inspectors should have closed the mine. That is what they exist for and if the mine inspectors did not exist in large enough numbers then the govt is finally at fault.

[glennj]

At last you have said some thing half correct. After the fact evidence does indeed show the safety was neglected and that is where the mine inspectors should have closed the mine. That is what they exist for and if the mine inspectors did not exist in large enough numbers then the govt is finally at fault.

Surely the prime fault lies with PRC & that is how the HS& E act sees it. Blaming the mine inspectors is akin to blaming the police for crime because they don't stop it!

[Hoop]

Balance, just say for instance a young (or older) miner decided to sneak a ciggie. Who is at fault then?
No disrespect to the dead intended and I don't for a moment think this happened. But we will never really know what the story was or who was at fault. Tragedy is just that, tragedy. Sometimes you cannot or should not apportion blame. It helps no one.

Maybe a mobile phone....or a battery powered watch

[neopoleII]

maybe....
the hi tech loading / digging machines with the huge buckets in front with tungsten teeth that do all the grunt work in the mine ........ and the fact that the progress of the making of the mine shaft was hampered because of the "extremely" hard rock they had to get through to get to the first coal could be an issue here......... very hard steel scrapes against very hard rock........ with a 1000 horsepower mining tractor unit pushing it, would in my opinion equal lots of sparks if the bucket scraped a wall.
could just be a simple accident.
obviously machinery shouldnt be running if gas levels are high..... but then... most coal mines a wet soggy places..... pike happens to be a very different beast.
i think this mine was something beyond the capacity of current mining knowledge, ....... so many new techniques and planning designs what with mining "uphill" into extremely hard rock,
and controls on optimal safety measures.
im sure that not only is this a global tragedy in the mining industry, it is also a prominent learning experience / case study for any future mining project that is looking at mining a seam in a situation like pike.
it seems no one was ready for this....... the board of NZO for finding the seam and dreaming for exploiting the prospect.....to the designers of the mine..... to the regulatory board that approved it .... to the inspectors that oversaw it..... and lastly the miners that worked in it.
this mine was ground breaking tech that no one had a full understanding of...... therefore a true tragedy that will help develop future mines in a safer way.

im writing this while im thinking about the aviation industry and the progress from the wright brothers to modern jet planes and traffic control ........ and how they learn the hard way via disasters.

[brucey09]

maybe....
the hi tech loading / digging machines with the huge buckets in front with tungsten teeth that do all the grunt work in the mine ........ and the fact that the progress of the making of the mine shaft was hampered because of the "extremely" hard rock they had to get through to get to the first coal could be an issue here......... very hard steel scrapes against very hard rock........ with a 1000 horsepower mining tractor unit pushing it, would in my opinion equal lots of sparks if the bucket scraped a wall.
could just be a simple accident.
obviously machinery shouldnt be running if gas levels are high..... but then... most coal mines a wet soggy places..... pike happens to be a very different beast.
i think this mine was something beyond the capacity of current mining knowledge, ....... so many new techniques and planning designs what with mining "uphill" into extremely hard rock,
and controls on optimal safety measures.
im sure that not only is this a global tragedy in the mining industry, it is also a prominent learning experience / case study for any future mining project that is looking at mining a seam in a situation like pike.
it seems no one was ready for this....... the board of NZO for finding the seam and dreaming for exploiting the prospect.....to the designers of the mine..... to the regulatory board that approved it .... to the inspectors that oversaw it..... and lastly the miners that worked in it.
this mine was ground breaking tech that no one had a full understanding of...... therefore a true tragedy that will help develop future mines in a safer way.

im writing this while im thinking about the aviation industry and the progress from the wright brothers to modern jet planes and traffic control ........ and how they learn the hard way via disasters.

Snr. Neopole
The mine was maintain this time not getting the coal.

[Balance]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/west-coast/9406995/Whittall-would-deviate

So Peter Whittall decided to play hero and inflated hopes of the dead miners' families.

So typical of the BS which was Pike river board and management.

"which went "terribly wrong" after Whittall explained first that Mines Rescue men had been preparing to go into the mine, resulting in claps and cheers - Knowles stepped forward and broke the news that no-one could have survived.

"For five days, a cast of many - Pike employees, police, firemen, Mines Rescue men, visiting experts - had been privy to information that disclosed the likely death of the men, but the families of the 29 had not been told," Macfie wrote. "Now in one terrible clumsy moment, all hope was extinguished."

[Balance]

Production over safety, profits over lives.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/tragedy-pike-river-mine-how-and-why-29-men-died-ts-148754

"Nishioka was, by nature, courteous and polite. People who had known and worked with him for decades had never seen him raise his voice, or swear in frustration or anger. Slightly built and deferential, he may have felt somewhat apologetic about presenting the most senior people in the mine with such profound complaints. After all, he was effectively telling them their operation was poorly conceived, badly run and unsafe. In any event, his message was apparently not heard by either White or Whittall: both have denied he raised these concerns with them."

[Xerof]

There must be some interesting conversations at her family christmas dinner gatherings - her brother worked with the team that organised and promoted the IPO and rights issues

[winner69]

Maybe Paul didn't talk about work at Christmas dinners

Wonder if that team got a decent bonus

[Balance]

Local gossip says that two senior members of the management team have left since Christmas. Coincidence?

SENZ's Spring Creek mine, only a few kms from PRC, is supposed to be an 800,000 tonnes/year mine also using hydro techniques and in the same coal seam and general geological conditions. But they've always struggled to achieve that.

Personally I beleive that PRCL have come too far and invested too much to just walk away from it all. But there were rumours that they might put the mine onto a care and maintenence program, i.e. no mining activity = no production. But that means spending money without any immediate prospect of income.

Post 3284 in March 2009 - the warning signs were there.

Guess what was the reaction of some of the Pikers and Noggers?

[robbo24]

[Cunliffe] said his government would then seek to recover the money from the parent companies, shareholders and directors of Pike River Coal.

He's coming to get you...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9416264/Labour-would-pay-full-Pike-River-compo

[Balance]

He's coming to get you...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9416264/Labour-would-pay-full-Pike-River-compo

He means NZOG and the big boys.

[blackcap]

He's coming to get you...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9416264/Labour-would-pay-full-Pike-River-compo

That is sickening by Cunliffe. Using tragedy for political gain. He knows it only cost $3.4m (tax payer) which will get him a lot of sympathy votes. I just hope the general public can see through this.

[Balance]

That is sickening by Cunliffe. Using tragedy for political gain. He knows it only cost $3.4m (tax payer) which will get him a lot of sympathy votes. I just hope the general public can see through this.

Just heard Cunliffe on radio.

He presented his case well - NZOG as the principal shareholder took the bulk of the insurance payout and did not see fit to pay one cent of that to the dead miners' families.

Also, NZOG shareholders like ACC voted against the resolution to pay the $3.4m, when there is more at stake here than pure legal obligations.

[GTM 3442]

He means NZOG and the big boys.

I hope you're right, Balance.

But I have a sneaky feeling that the "Big Boys" will have the resources to fight any such move, and that it will prove much easier and more cost-effective to go after the "little boys".

[Balance]

I hope you're right, Balance.

But I have a sneaky feeling that the "Big Boys" will have the resources to fight any such move, and that it will prove much easier and more cost-effective to go after the "little boys".

Cunliffe was rather clear in the interview that he was basing his call on the judge's decision that NZOG is the one who must pay - he made the point that NZOG was the shareholder that received tens of millions from the insurance payout.

[GTM 3442]

Cunliffe was rather clear in the interview that he was basing his call on the judge's decision that NZOG is the one who must pay - he made the point that NZOG was the shareholder that received tens of millions from the insurance payout.

"Policy" is one thing, but can so easily be changed in it's implementation.

As I say, I hope you're right.

[janner]

Balance... I have not been following NZO closely..

Is NZO a charity ??.. I steer very clear of " Charities " ..

**** happens.. They ( Pike river workers ) worked for the above average wages..

Because there was RISK..

I repeat.. **** Happens.. They took the risk.. They lost !!..

Why should I have my insurance increased because it DID HAPPEN !!..

Let go man !!.. THEY ARE DEAD !!..

[fish]

Cunliffe was rather clear in the interview that he was basing his call on the judge's decision that NZOG is the one who must pay - he made the point that NZOG was the shareholder that received tens of millions from the insurance payout.
I listened intently to the speech-david cunliffe likes to send me e-mails and videos of his speeches-he says he will make the parents ,shareholders and directors pay.
I like the idea of the directors paying as they clearly had ultimate responsibility for ensuring safety.
Shareholders plainly ridiculous and against all precedent .

[fish]

the video is worth watching
-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S6tmR1gw9Q

[janner]

Please read my above comments..

They took the risk.. !!.. They were handsomely paid for it !!..

[robbo24]

He means NZOG and the big boys.

Anyone who owns a share of any money-making business is a "big boy" to him, though.

[psychic]

There are some absolutely appalling posts on this thread that show the posters to be nothing but very shallow, self absorbed, self serving people. How disgusting.

The poor souls were killed at work; they were paid for the rugged, extreme conditions, it was not danger money or what-ever you want to call it. When I was younger I worked underground, and I never once thought I would not survive the shift.

I'm with you Hancocks, just gobsmacked.

[janner]

There are some absolutely appalling posts on this thread that show the posters to be nothing but very shallow, self absorbed, self serving people. How disgusting.

The poor souls were killed at work; they were paid for the rugged, extreme conditions, it was not danger money or what-ever you want to call it. When I was younger I worked underground, and I never once thought I would not survive the shift.

So did they !!.. Cie la vie .. Hancock... cie la vie.. !!..

Have been in many very dangerous situations myself..

Military .. With extra pay :-)0

I did it because Ii wanted to..

Nobody forced me.. No body forced them, !!.

Move on man !!..

This was not the only Coal Mining disaster to happen in the past three years !!..

[janner]

I totally agree janner. Their private life insurance policy could have been much more affordable for them, then it is for me, on an average/below average wage.

The odds of a coal miner dying at work is much greater then myself in my current job, but the drive getting to work we'd be equals.

Get a WOF for that old Banger.. :-))

[psychic]

good grief

[digger]

Strange is it not that ACC that takes money from all workers and employers to cover accidents, somehow is not being asked to front up here. See ACC is about to become NZ largest investment for the govt.
Also David the new leader of the opposition needs some education about large holders and what is a parent company. First PIKE does not have a parent company. It has large holders but it is an independent company.

[Balance]

Strange is it not that ACC that takes money from all workers and employers to cover accidents, somehow is not being asked to front up here. See ACC is about to become NZ largest investment for the govt.
Also David the new leader of the opposition needs some education about large holders and what is a parent company. First PIKE does not have a parent company. It has large holders but it is an independent company.

http://www.acc.co.nz/news/WPC089999

ACC has done exactly what it was set up to do - step in when accidents happen, and pay according to its regulatory framework.

What is in debate here is the $3.4m in reparations ordered by Judge Farish - in part for the 'total lack of remorse' showed by Pike River (ie. directors and management).

David Cunliffe is pledging to take a moral imperative, pay the $3.4m and then, go after the directors and NZOG.

Excerpt : “Here you have a Commission of Inquiry, you have court ordered compensation, you have a company who have gone into receivership without paying that compensation, you have a a judge who said the parents...and shareholders of that company should have paid and they have not.”

Remember how the company's directors and former managers publicly rejected the Royal Commission's findings and criticisms of their performance?

No one representing the company and its mine said sorry for their part in a calamity that had claimed 29 lives, scarred families and tormented a community.

David is doing the right thing.

[robbo24]

David is doing the right thing.

David should bring himself up to speed with the concept of separate corporate personality and the default position under the Companies Act that shareholders are not liable for debts of the company.

If David wants to alter that default position then I put to you that he is not, in fact, doing the right thing.

[Balance]

David should bring himself up to speed with the concept of separate corporate personality and the default position under the Companies Act that shareholders are not liable for debts of the company.

If David wants to alter that default position then I put to you that he is not, in fact, doing the right thing.

He is talking about the moral imperative & moral pressure and of course, playing smart politics. That is what politics is about after all.

National Party is playing true to form by alerting to all kinds of legal ramifications etc. Remember how Muldoon scrapped Compulsory Super in 1976 because of 'reds under the bed'?

This is what David actually said :

"He said he did not think legal action would be required to impel the company to reimburse.

“The companies, shareholders and directors have two choices, one is the easy way the other is the hard way .”

Mr Cunliffe said he would use all the regulatory, legal, or legislative powers of the Office of the Prime Minister, including a private dinner with the Chairman of Pike River Coal and executives so they could see "good sense and decide to take something back to their boards”.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1311/S00168/david-cunliffe-labour-to-compensate-pike-river-families.htm

We know John Key is very happy to use the office of the Prime Minister when he wants to.

[J R Ewing]

He is talking about the moral imperative & moral pressure and of course, playing smart politics. That is what politics is about after all.

National Party is playing true to form by alerting to all kinds of legal ramifications etc. Remember how Muldoon scrapped Compulsory Super in 1976 because of 'reds under the bed'?

This is what David actually said :

"He said he did not think legal action would be required to impel the company to reimburse.

“The companies, shareholders and directors have two choices, one is the easy way the other is the hard way .”

Mr Cunliffe said he would use all the regulatory, legal, or legislative powers of the Office of the Prime Minister, including a private dinner with the Chairman of Pike River Coal and executives so they could see "good sense and decide to take something back to their boards”.



So what does that mean? Either pay up or I will make Metiria Turei minister in charge of oil exploration? Or pay this money and I will sort out some legislative favour for you that will more than compensate...

[Balance]

So what does that mean? Either pay up or I will make Metiria Turei minister in charge of oil exploration? Or pay this money and I will sort out some legislative favour for you that will more than compensate...

I guess that is what it will come down to.

It will be like the Iranian hostage crisis - Iran quickly released the hostages when Reagan took office knowing exactly what Reagan would do.

NZOG will pay out if it looks like Labour will get in.

Until then, it is smart politics by David.

[skid]

So a private dinner with the chairman of Pike--bit of a stretch to translate that to NZO(blackmail or no blackmail)

[Mr Tommy]

There has been quite a lot of compensation already, a lot more than most workers killed doing their jobs ...

ACC paid out over $10m, that's about 350K each
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/4396917/ACC-to-pay-about-10m-to-families

Pike trust paid out another 190K each:
Each of the 29 family trusts to be established will receive a minimum of $190,000. Families with legal dependents of the 29 deceased miners will receive an additional payment to their trust of $15,000 per dependent
http://www.pikeriverdonations.org.nz/media-releases/

[Balance]

There has been quite a lot of compensation already, a lot more than most workers killed doing their jobs ...

ACC paid out over $10m, that's about 350K each
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/4396917/ACC-to-pay-about-10m-to-families

Pike trust paid out another 190K each:
Each of the 29 family trusts to be established will receive a minimum of $190,000. Families with legal dependents of the 29 deceased miners will receive an additional payment to their trust of $15,000 per dependent
http://www.pikeriverdonations.org.nz/media-releases/

That's where David has got it wrong - the families*are not destitute as he made out some of them to be.

[Under Surveillance]

There has been quite a lot of compensation already, a lot more than most workers killed doing their jobs ...

ACC paid out over $10m, that's about 350K each
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/4396917/ACC-to-pay-about-10m-to-families

Pike trust paid out another 190K each:
Each of the 29 family trusts to be established will receive a minimum of $190,000. Families with legal dependents of the 29 deceased miners will receive an additional payment to their trust of $15,000 per dependent
http://www.pikeriverdonations.org.nz/media-releases/
Also, the taxpayers are copping another $9 million in an attempt to bring home the bones for the families.

[neopoleII]

cunliff must be really happy that his voting core have very short memories and dont read websites like this....
so each family gets around half a million dollars and cunliff turns it into a political lynching mob story.
supported by quite a few commentators in different threads on this website.

its politics pretty.

and if cunliff wins........ the the NZX night as well shut up shop as every company and its mum and dad shareholders will be a target for compensation
for anything....... which begs the question......... where will the tax money come from?
pike coal mine is a tragedy..... and yes some folks on the board should have to answer...... but what cunliff is wanting to do will destroy NZ.
maybe.... that is what NZ needs..... get forced to its knees by POLITICAL stupidity ....... like most 3rd world countries have.

if something was going to be done morally ....... then civil action should be taken out by a class action against those that the class deem to be at fault and then let THAT set a precedences in corporate law.
other wise its banana politics.
and those that support it are morally corrupt in trying to get justice via destroying a nations business laws and its power to conduct business because of a targeted case against ONE company.
personelly...... i agree that a few folks at the top of nzo and prc should front up.... but not in the way THE judge has said.

[digger]

cunliff must be really happy that his voting core have very short memories and dont read websites like this....
so each family gets around half a million dollars and cunliff turns it into a political lynching mob story.
supported by quite a few commentators in different threads on this website.

its politics pretty.

and if cunliff wins........ the the NZX night as well shut up shop as every company and its mum and dad shareholders will be a target for compensation
for anything....... which begs the question......... where will the tax money come from?
pike coal mine is a tragedy..... and yes some folks on the board should have to answer...... but what cunliff is wanting to do will destroy NZ.
maybe.... that is what NZ needs..... get forced to its knees by POLITICAL stupidity ....... like most 3rd world countries have.

if something was going to be done morally ....... then civil action should be taken out by a class action against those that the class deem to be at fault and then let THAT set a precedences in corporate law.
other wise its banana politics.
and those that support it are morally corrupt in trying to get justice via destroying a nations business laws and its power to conduct business because of a targeted case against ONE company.
personelly...... i agree that a few folks at the top of nzo and prc should front up.... but not in the way THE judge has said.


My thoughts exactly neopole11. Well covered. NZ should not let policy get made on the hop,otherwise in this case the 29 deaths will end up the far smaller lose.

[sideline]

My thoughts exactly neopole11. Well covered. NZ should not let policy get made on the hop,otherwise in this case the 29 deaths will end up the far smaller lose.

Doesn't surprise me really. Cunliffe will go after any vote he can buy with taxpayer's money. He only forgot that the guys in Blackball were already Labour voters. So he only purchase one vote (Balance's) for the three million.

[winner69]

Somebody famous blog (can't recall whose) said Pike shareholders are victims of this tragedy as well ..... as he pointed out they lost all their investment

[Xerof]

For gods sake, let cunlips keep talking. Every time he moves his lips he's helping the National Party