PRC Pike River Coal

[Balance]

I think what we've seen is an old boys network and a tolerance of failure because of how well connected some people are. GW came from NZO and he was allowed to go ahead and miss every single target date he ever set. Basically if he said something would happen at a certain time you could bet on the fact that it would happen weeks, months or years after the designated date. He came from the NZO 'inner circle'....he was their man heading up their baby.
Most of the time a CEO is the big figurehead of the company. When they step into a role that's already well defined in a well established corporate company, they get the big bonus as the well oiled machine grinds on. In the case of Telecom and Paul Reynolds, if the wheels fall off every one else will (and did) get the boot before the CEO. Corporate and management culture rewards people as much for how well they 'fit in' as for what they do. You'd like to think that the 'fitting in' would apply more to the middle management roles with the really smart people at the top driving the forward momentum and driving the culture. But does it happen in practice?
I think when it's a start-up company where real leadership and real drive is required from the CEO , then you find out someones true mettle. When the recession hit NZ, it was the same story. I was working for a company where management were telling the staff they didn't know what to do, and this was a corporate company. When the going got tough, the people who walked the walk and talked the talk didn't get going. By and large they probably kept their jobs.
Balance describe PRC along the lines of...something like....a bunch of halfwits and managers masquerading as miners. I'd go along with that and endorse it. As much as we have people trying to convince us that PRC haven't missed a beat and that we are on the brink of seeing a massive out-flow of coal, it's a really tight situation right now. September is fast disappearing. I hope we don't see the early October date come and go without hydro-mining commencing.

Two months before the explosion - writing was on the wall.

[iceman]

Charges against Whittall dropped. It will be interesting to see the details !

[Xerof]

Charges against Whittall dropped. It will be interesting to see the details !

should be Ward anyway


enter Balance, stage left with fire and brimstone

[Balance]

should be Ward anyway


enter Balance, stage left with fire and brimstone

A pragmatic decision. Who are we to argue with the 'experts'?

Money to be spent on lawyers get distributed to dead miners' families - that's an acceptable and good outcome.

[Xerof]

A pragmatic decision. Who are we to argue with the 'experts'?

Money to be spent on lawyers get distributed to dead miners'*families - that's an excellent outcome.

just want to retain that post for time immemorial

[Balance]

just want to retain that post for time immemorial

What gives me comfort is that the presiding judge is Judge Farish - same judge who slammed Pike River directors and management for their 'total lack of remorse'. It would have been a hard swallow for her to let Whittall off the hook, but she has made a pragmatic decision in the face of a weak case.

If anyone is to be blamed, it's the prosecution team.

"Each charge faced a maximum penalty of $250,000. Imprisonment of Whittall was not an available option.

Fines were also dependent on a defendant's ability to pay."

So 12 charges = $3m maximum.

Meanwhile, the lawyers get to charge squillions in fees etc etc.

Devastating for the dead miners' families to not have their day in court but in time, they will learn to forgive but will never forget.

[brucey09]

Snrs.
NZ the republico of bananas - yes?

[Xerof]

I gather from the reports that the funds have come directly from directors' and managements' pockets. Although the families have disingenuously called it 'blood money', at least its come from the right source. NZO shareholders were correct to vote against their company paying it, in the end.

I would like to find out if Ward was part of that.....

[brucey09]

Snrs.
Insurances of directors. I am thinking. Yes?

[sideline]

Snrs.
Insurances of directors. I am thinking. Yes?

Thats what NBR says.

[Xerof]

Thats what NBR says.

oh, well that takes some shine off it

[whatsup]

What a absolute disgrase 29 dead and no one held responsibe, there needs to be a Royal Commission on this alone, totally unbeilevable and unacceptable.
Imagine how the world mining companies will view this, Makes N Z's "Clean Green Image " a laughing stock, you can be prosecuted for cutting a tree down but if 29 workers are killed at work----NOTHING---NOTHING---NOTHING !!

[Mr Tommy]

What a absolute disgrase 29 dead and no one held responsibe, there needs to be a Royal Commission on this alone, totally unbeilevable and unacceptable.
Imagine how the world mining companies will view this, Makes N Z's "Clean Green Image " a laughing stock, you can be prosecuted for cutting a tree down but if 29 workers are killed at work----NOTHING---NOTHING---NOTHING !!


http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9458522/Forestry-worker-killed-in-accident

9 Forestry workers killed so far this year, is this a disgrace? Is anyone held responsible ?

[Balance]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9458522/Forestry-worker-killed-in-accident

9 Forestry workers killed so far this year, is this a disgrace? Is anyone held responsible ?

yes, the forestry companies have been prosecuted and fined.

[Balance]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9907240/Pike-mine-re-entry-more-complex-than-expected

[minimoke]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9907240/Pike-mine-re-entry-more-complex-than-expected
And yet again there has been over optimism with Pike. This sector just seem incapable of looking at the data and hedging accordingly. There is nothing new about west coast weather - and re-entry was only ever going to be complicated. Not how little but how much.

On top of the royal commission report I've just finished reading the Rebecca McFie book. That it is patently one eyed against Peter Withall some of the "facts" reported in the book make for very disturbing reading and gives a clue on the likely success or otherwise of mine reentry and body recovery.

I suspect that at some point soon after the election we'll hear Solid Energy say it is no longer economically viable or possible to continue with the re-entry plans.

[Goldstein]

What a absolute disgrase 29 dead and no one held responsibe, there needs to be a Royal Commission on this alone, totally unbeilevable and unacceptable.
Imagine how the world mining companies will view this, Makes N Z's "Clean Green Image " a laughing stock, you can be prosecuted for cutting a tree down but if 29 workers are killed at work----NOTHING---NOTHING---NOTHING !!

There is no corporate manslaughter redress in NZ. This means that you can have an incompetent board putting in place an incompetent management team and then putting pressure on them to turn a profit - and nobody is accountable for a disaster. By incompetent I mean a lack of industry expertise. I used to work in a similar environment and had to walk away. The govt needs to take responsibility for this disaster. The hands-off approach of thinking the mining industry will employ the right sort of people has failed tragically.

[tricha]

Can u not read, ask management ?? #1 issue high concentrations of gas = boom.

Maybe this should be used for a CSG plant.

Maybe u should do a site visit. ?

yes I wrote this early 2010.

I learnt about this from someone who helped build the plant ( above)
When the raise bore was drilling the ventilation shaft, there were explosions all the way up.

I had a sad day, in the Railway Hotel, Hokitika, a little later. It was the wild foods festival.
An ex workmate who was now working at Pike River, said. " I will die in the mine"

Sadly when it blew up, he was there.


a sad case of history repeating, why no one is prosecuted is because the buck stops at John Keys.

and goes all the way down the chain.

Take the mines inspectors away and history repeats. It's a bloody
disgrace.

My personal opinion is, if they had mines inspector half as good as Australia, the place would never have opened.
I did some time in mines in Australia.

[tricha]

yes I wrote this early 2010.

I learnt about this from someone who helped build the plant ( above)
When the raise bore was drilling the ventilation shaft, there were explosions all the way up.

I had a sad day, in the Railway Hotel, Hokitika, a little later. It was the wild foods festival.
An ex workmate who was now working at Pike River, said. " I will die in the mine"

Sadly when it blew up, he was there.


a sad case of history repeating, why no one is prosecuted is because the buck stops at John Keys.

and goes all the way down the chain.

Take the mines inspectors away and history repeats. It's a bloody
disgrace.

My personal opinion is, if they had mines inspector half as good as Australia, the place would never have opened.
I did some time in mines in Australia.

amazing, absolutely, 29 killed and no prosecution!:mellow:

Cut down one lousy native tree and see what happens :confused:

[Balance]

amazing, absolutely, 29 killed and no prosecution!:mellow:

Cut down one lousy native tree and see what happens :confused:

Well, justice may yet be served. This is the comment from John Key today :

A "more fruitful path" would be to look at a civil prosecution against individuals.

"It would come at a significant cost and one that families should not have to bear," Mr Key said, indicating he would seek an opinion from Crown Law.

"If we can do it we will do it, " he said, making it clear any action would be taxpayer-funded."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11354441

[Xerof]

Yes, excellent news indeed Balance.

Are we, the taxpayer, able to extradite that bastard from Brisbane, to join the directors in this action?

[minimoke]

Yes, excellent news indeed Balance.

Are we, the taxpayer, able to extradite that bastard from Brisbane, to join the directors in this action?
I sure don't mind my taxes being spent giving it a go

[Xerof]

Some legal experts were asked for their opinion this morning on Red Radio, on the likelihood of civil action proceeding, and in their (unbiased, as one was counsel for a trade union) view, the bar is set VERY high to even get a case to court, the witnesses required from overseas cannot be compelled to attend, and a lot of the critically required evidence is entombed in the mine.

So, it seems JK has probably already had a similar advice, and is quite happy to profer the olive branch, knowing it is not likely to proceed. Doesn't mean it won't, but not looking promising.

Our Brisbane supermarket jock's name was mentioned in the same sound bite, as a candidate

[Balance]

Some legal experts were asked for their opinion this morning on Red Radio, on the likelihood of civil action proceeding, and in their (unbiased, as one was counsel for a trade union) view, the bar is set VERY high to even get a case to court, the witnesses required from overseas cannot be compelled to attend, and a lot of the critically required evidence is entombed in the mine.

So, it seems JK has probably already had a similar advice, and is quite happy to profer the olive branch, knowing it is not likely to proceed. Doesn't mean it won't, but not looking promising.

Our Brisbane supermarket jock's name was mentioned in the same sound bite, as a candidate

Well, there's enough from the Royal Commission of Inquiry to say that there was negligence on a grand scale so let's start with that?

[minimoke]

Our ACC system has broadly speaking removed the right to sue. However a party can be pursued if there has been deliberate or reckless disregard. Simple negligence isn't enough.

Ordinarily joe blogs citizen can't pursue damages because costs make the process pretty prohibitive. Ordinarily there gas to be a link between claimant and the other party - say a miner against prc. A Bit Hard When The Miner Is dead.

I'm sure we have the legal minds to see a way over these barriers. Of more of a challenge is getting getting Gordon ward back to nz. If the SAS are looking for a training opportunity I reckon send them to reedy creek and keep an eye out for the IGA sign. If my Intel is wrong let's put 5 eyes to a decent use.

[Balance]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/west-coast/68854284/whittall-should-have-his-day-in-court--pike-river-widow

Let's follow this one and see what happens.

29 men (fathers, sons, brothers, nephews, uncles, cousins and mates) went to work and died due to a litany of failures by the directors and management of Pike Rive and NZOG to properly provide proper safety measures at the mine.

And not one person has been held responsible?

[tim23]

NZOG were a significant shareholder not sure if you can include them in sentence above really, otherwise you start blaming major shareholders in other listed companies for issues e.g blame the Tindall foundation for WHS issues etc.

[minimoke]

NZOG were a significant shareholder not sure if you can include them in sentence above really, otherwise you start blaming major shareholders in other listed companies for issues e.g blame the Tindall foundation for WHS issues etc.
Did the Tindall Foundation keep pumping money in when every Warehouse milestone failed to be met? Cant remember the last time the Warehouse operations killed a person let alone 29

[Lola]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/west-coast/68854284/whittall-should-have-his-day-in-court--pike-river-widow

Let's follow this one and see what happens.

29 men (fathers, sons, brothers, nephews, uncles, cousins and mates) went to work and died due to a litany of failures by the directors and management of Pike Rive and NZOG to properly provide proper safety measures at the mine.

And not one person has been held responsible?

And what about the Ministry who forever disallowed multiple times requests for more Inspectors.?
Come on people drop this and move on.

[GTM 3442]

PRC demonstrates an unsavoury New Zealand cultural trait - that whilst there is endless talk about "accountability", nobody is ever actually held accountable.

A "systemic failure" or some such twaddle is discovered and promoted. Accountability is quickly spead amongst all those involved.

There follows an apology (preferably accompanied by on-air tears and a modicum of snivelling).

After which a promise (whoops, I mean "commitment") is made that a set of "robust" guidelines and/or policies will be introduced.

After which everybody concerned rolls over and business continues as before.

[Balance]

And what about the Ministry who forever disallowed multiple times requests for more Inspectors.?
Come on people drop this and move on.

Charge the ministry with negligence to conduct proper safety inspections if that is the case. Heads must roll.

Not good enough - 2 wrongs do not cancel out the need to bring to account the greater wrong.

[Lola]

Charge the ministry with negligence to conduct proper safety inspections if that is the case. Heads must roll.

Not good enough - 2 wrongs do not cancel out the need to bring to account the greater wrong.

Waste of money.
Open the road to the mine and get DOC to finish the job by giving the Public another hiking highway over to Reefton.
Something Helen may have had in mind and would be a wonderful memorial to those men.
The families would feel better if they pushed for that rather than exhaust themselves with grudge.
Gerry could open it like he did the mine.

[minimoke]

----
The families would feel better if they pushed for that rather than exhaust themselves with grudge.

Who are we to speak for the families - if they want a hiking highway let them champion that cause.

If anyone has a right to bear a grudge it is these families. And I dont think they have a grudge, I think they just want to see someone be accountable, not an unreasonable emotion to have given the circumstances.

And we should never forget Pike River - for a whole pile of reasons listed exhaustively in this thread,

AS for Judith Collins leading the revolt against implementing a change in legislation. She should have made her feelings known at the drafting stage if she had taken just a wee bit of interest. She was Minister of Police at the time of the explosion and oversaw a department fail to bring charges early on. And a department of keystone cops who couldn't find enough evidence to bring a charge under the crimes Act. Then post election Minister of Justice - a government department that must be consulted when all Bills are drafted. All we got from her then was a great big silence.

As for WorkSafe - now busy issuing improvement notices left right and centre. Heres betting there will be a press release saying what a great job they are doing having visited x number of workplaces and issuing x number more notices. Then I'll wait for the inquiry into the quota system / bonus incentive scheme they have introduced to get such a result.

[Balance]

Waste of money.


Close all jails and reduce police numbers then. Waste of money as crimes already committed?

There is a thing called deterrent - those who are in charge must be made to know that they must act responsibly at all times and not cause deaths.

[pietrade]

......... - those who are in charge must be made to know that they must act responsibly at all times and not cause deaths.

Like the 'safety officer' at the mine, who was apparently incompetent/ineffective and lost a son in the explosion. The 'Boom' was the sound of chickens coming home to roost.......

[minimoke]

Like the 'safety officer' at the mine, who was apparently incompetent/ineffective and lost a son in the explosion. The 'Boom' was the sound of chickens coming home to roost.......
that is arguably defamatory, certainty insensitive and surely ill informed. All I can do is a suggest you read the royal commission of enquiry report which shows safety was the responsibly of the different departments and N. Rockhouses area was under resourced. He wasn't even informed of high methane readings among a whole pile of things that weren't taken seriously by others in more senior and responsible positions.

[pietrade]

It may well be an uncomfortable truth but who, other than the safety officer (literally at the 'coal face' of activity), would be PRIMARILY responsible for the safety of all the workers? Apart from the worker's own self-interest, surely that would be
the basic function of the safety officer's employment, and ideally expressed by an awareness of and monitoring of potential dangers? If the 'canary in the mine' fails to signal danger, who else to ring the bell?

[minimoke]

It may well be an uncomfortable truth but who, other than the safety officer (literally at the 'coal face' of activity), would be PRIMARILY responsible for the safety of all the workers?
no.

The fundamental responsibility is the managers of the workers. The person / people responsible are the ones who actually make the decisions.

Which is why you can track the path from nzog who kept deciding to throw money at prc. Then follow the money to the board of prc, then to the ceo of prc particularly when decisions are being made on / during mine development (eg "let's use a ventilation shaft that noone can climb as an escape route".).

Then down to the various engineering managers who have technical expertise on risk.

If you want to go down the track of making the safety manager responsible I think the first person immediately in front in that queue is the union. After all they are responsible for negotiating employee terms and conditions as well as protecting employee rights and being an advocate of employee interests. Once you are done with them is then the turn off the safety officer.

That of course will never happen. Firstly because the ninkompoops wouldn't be able to find any evidence. Secondly there would be little public interest in pursuing a man who lost one son and nearly lost another.

[minimoke]

The news at the moment. Apparently pike is sitting in solid energys books at $1.4m. Could be an option there for some - go on make them an offer.

[trader_jackson]

Is it possible that Bathurst may consider picking up some of Solid Energy's assets, such as pike?

[minimoke]

Is it possible that Bathurst may consider picking up some of Solid Energy's assets, such as pike?you are making the same mistake others have made. The are no assets because they can't get to the coal.

[Balance]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/74125964/pike-river-mine-sits-idle-five-years-on

[Absolute144]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/74125964/pike-river-mine-sits-idle-five-years-on

Reader may also like to google: "Methane drainage royal commision on the pike river coal mine" for an understanding of why the mine was so dangerous, why there is 99% pure methane behind the barriers 170 metres into the mine - why it is so difficult to re enter.

[Marilyn Munroe]

Reader may also like to google: "Methane drainage royal commision on the pike river coal mine" for an understanding of why the mine was so dangerous, why there is 99% pure methane behind the barriers 170 metres into the mine - why it is so difficult to re enter.

Thanks for the recommendation. The part of the Royal Commissions report you reference makes for grim reading.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

[minimoke]

Thanks for the recommendation. The part of the Royal Commissions report you reference makes for grim reading.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn
Fair to say I reckon that mine owner's and management left it to their own common sense to run the mine with a methane risk as they saw fit. Despite the Royal Commission I find it very disappointing that in the new legislation the expression "hazard"is not defined anywhere - with the politicians expressly relying on company managers to use their common sense.

Also worth mentioning to keep this thread current is that the High Court has declined the families request to review the decision Worksafe made not to prosecute Peter Whittall.

The stage is now well and truly set for some other dodgy company to kill people and there will be no repercussions.

[Monkey Poms]

The news at the moment. Apparently pike is sitting in solid energys books at $1.4m. Could be an option there for some - go on make them an offer.


I think $1.4 equates to the land value fencing and the road structure.

-------------------------------------------

On a lighter note ( the flag).
Top sporting events such as athletics. When there are Kiwis in the final and no Poms,
the best part of 65 million Brits are willing the Kiwis on to win.

Replacing the old flag with one depicting a common fern, well it won't
have the same stimulation for some Brits.

Replace it with a Kiwi on the flag,then outside world can immediately relate to it.

Monkey Poms.

[Balance]

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/340896/dropping-pike-river-charges-unlawful-bargain

Mr Whittall deserves his day in court just as the families of the miners killed in the explosion deserve their day in court.

Then, only then will justice be done and be seen to be done.

NZOG management and directors should also have their day in court to explain properly how they funded and kept on funding the development of this bomb until it killed 29 people.

[Balance]

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/opinion/2017/10/mark-sainsbury-pike-river-should-form-part-of-the-coalition-talks.html

Excerpt : "the deal was they dropped the prosecution and the mine company coughed up a few million dollars in compensation - blood money, as many of the families saw it - and they want justice, not cash".

[minimoke]

Best of luck to the families and to justice. This is NZ's darkest day of shame from beginning to end!

[Baa_Baa]

Best of luck to the families and to justice. This is NZ's darkest day of shame from beginning to end!

Ditto that, a sad, sorry and deplorable state of affairs. Bring our men back home to their loved ones, or at least try to. I have family lines back to the Granity and Denniston mines, they would turn in their graves knowing of this debacle. It sickens me about the pain the families have gone through, deserted by the government and the bosses get paid off! Despicable. Bring our men back home.

[Balance]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11945226

Unforgivable that Labour and Winston Peters are now backtracking on the re-entry into Pike River.

The families of the dead miners are so easily manipulated - so sad.

[trader_jackson]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11945226

Unforgivable that Labour and Winston Peters are now backtracking on the re-entry into Pike River.

The families of the dead miners are so easily manipulated - so sad.

It is absolutely terrible, and saddening.

It wasn't just the family who were swayed to voted for Winston/Jacinda due to their "cast iron"/"bottom line" guarantee of re-entry into Pike River. Another one to add to the "three headed monster U turn list", growing by the day.

[Joshuatree]

Think you have the wrong govt there balance.Im glad at what they are doing and the transparency that the previous govt did not have.

"And in the end there can be no absolute guarantee. But what we can guarantee is that we'll do the job properly, plan, prepare and assess and they will be involved every step of the way."

"Ultimately, and the families are very clear, the first principle of the set of principles that are governing what we do is safety, the safety of anybody involved in the re-entry project. I'm not going to put anybody at undue risk. I'm simply not going to."

[Balance]

Think you have the wrong govt there balance.Im glad at what they are doing and the transparency that the previous govt did not have.

"And in the end there can be no absolute guarantee. But what we can guarantee is that we'll do the job properly, plan, prepare and assess and they will be involved every step of the way."

"Ultimately, and the families are very clear, the first principle of the set of principles that are governing what we do is safety, the safety of anybody involved in the re-entry project. I'm not going to put anybody at undue risk. I'm simply not going to."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/87550741/Winston-Peters-says-Pike-River-re-entry-is-bottom-line-to-election-deals

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/88532403/labour-leader-andrew-little-makes-pike-river-reentry-bill-an-election-promise

On the contrary, Joshuatree - I have followed this company and its tragic aftermath carefully.

Winston Peters and Andrew Little remind one of funeral directors selling inflated priced bibles to the impoverished families of the deceased and for added profits, to the dead to be placed in the coffins.

As if the dead miners' families have not gone through enough.

[Joshuatree]

The families are closely involved in this balance . If it can be done safely, a bottom line for the families this revue will find it. Absolutely offensive what the previous govt didn't do.

[minimoke]

I cant figure it.

Andrew Little was head of EPMU union at the time of the explosion and he is on record as saying the Pike River was an excellent company and defended their safety record (sorry - cant be bothered getting the direct quote - look it up in the Radio NZ Morning report on 21 November 2010 if in doubt) He was prepared to have his members down a dodgy mine back then. Why is he not prepared to send people down now?

Apparently an excuse currently being considered is the risk of rock fall. Any rocks loosened by the explosion would have likely been shaken free after the 7.8 Culverden earthquake. If that ground movement couldn't move loose rock not much else will.

Mining is inherently dangerous - especially underground mining. This issue is not mining. It is essentially walking into a long tunnel filled with potentially explosive gas. If methane is as high as reported risk of explosion is nil as methane / oxygen ratios all wrong for an explosion.

An unmanned entry has apparently been thrown aside on the basis there are already dead robots in there and new technology isn't proven Well - an ideal proving ground I reckon for something like drone technology. Keep something off the ground.

Given we already allow dangerous occupations to continue working (forestry / fishing / farmers on quad bikes etc) there can be no rational reason for not allowing people down the drift providing proper risk minimisation is in place. Prevent people going down the drift on safety grounds ought to mean preventing people from carrying out other known fatally dangerous occupations.

[Balance]

The families are closely involved in this balance . If it can be done safely, a bottom line for the families this revue will find it. Absolutely offensive what the previous govt didn't do.

Yes, the families are 'involved' because they are desperate to believe and want to believe.

So they become easy prey to false promises.

And Winston and Little were quick to sell them the bibles which they are now backtracking like crazy.

Winston is very good at screaming 'cover-up' but let's see whether he will be the first into the mine.

[Joshuatree]

You are being totally insensitive to the families. Think about it

[Balance]

You are being totally insensitive to the families. Think about it

Someone has to speak the truth and cold hard reality - I have spoken out against the gross mismanagement of the mine despite all the stones and arrows directed at my direction.

The stones, insults and arrows only stopped after the mine blew up.

Do you honestly believe that Winston Peters and Andrew Little had the best interests of the families at heart?

Look at how quickly they are now backpedaling - and the families are keeping quiet because they know they have been had.

[Joshuatree]

You are insulting the families, shame on you.Listen to the families

But Bernie Monk, who lost his son Michael in the disaster, rejected Ms Adam's criticism and said he was upset by the comments.
"They're (the government) being straight up and down the middle.
"The National government hid behind things the whole way through here, locked our experts out of any negotiations of making this happen and she's a great one to say that. And, I feel a bit hurt by it and offended by what she's saying.
"We all don't want things to happen but we're making sure that all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed and we will get through this - not like the National government's done over the last six years of hiding behind and keeping it all in secrets."

[Balance]

You are insulting the families, shame on you.Listen to the families

But Bernie Monk, who lost his son Michael in the disaster, rejected Ms Adam's criticism and said he was upset by the comments.
"They're (the government) being straight up and down the middle.
"The National government hid behind things the whole way through here, locked our experts out of any negotiations of making this happen and she's a great one to say that. And, I feel a bit hurt by it and offended by what she's saying.
"We all don't want things to happen but we're making sure that all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed and we will get through this - not like the National government's done over the last six years of hiding behind and keeping it all in secrets."

Which is the greater sin - lying or being realistic?

Winston Peters and Andrew Little are indeed like the funeral directors selling inflated priced bibles to the impoverished families of the deceased and for added profits, to the dead to be placed in the coffins.

As if the dead miners' families have not gone through enough.

Desperate people do and say desperate things which make them easy prey for the shysters like Winston and Little out there.

I am listening to the families and have been one of those on this forum who believed they never receive the justice they deserve BUT I am not lying to them like Winston and Little.

I feel very very sorry for the families - but not for the way they choose to be deceived by the weasel words of Winston and Little.

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/342608/district-mayor-supports-pike-river-re-entry

"Grey District mayor Tony Kokshoorn has backed re-entry into Pike River, but says expectations about what can be done need to be realistic."

[Balance]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/92126750/why-did-the-latest-pike-river-mine-footage-cause-such-an-uproar

"All the footage was supplied to the Royal Commission, Smith said, and while Raymond could not say for sure if that happened, "if they did, it would have been regarded as relatively important".

"A Mine Rescue Trust statement said staff in the video were just two metres inside the drift, near the temporary seal."

So everybody is involved in a conspiracy to hide the truth?

[Joshuatree]

Imagine you are talking to Bernie Monk iris this just a political stunt in your part.

[Balance]

Imagine you are talking to Bernie Monk iris this just a political stunt in your part.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11802658

All said and done, can bet upon Winston Peters will be nowhere to be seen when mine re-entry either occur or not occur.

Shysters are like that.

[RGR367]

You are insulting the families, shame on you.Listen to the families

"

No Jt. No one is insulting the families but this gov't is deeply insulting the Kiwi intelligence by their new reasoning.
Re-entry? Wait, as we need to spent $7M plus first to assess what this Pike River re-entry promise is :p
Even some die hard Labour supporters must be feeling some shame by now. Yippee-ki-yay, mother......!

[moka]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11945226

Unforgivable that Labour and Winston Peters are now backtracking on the re-entry into Pike River.

The families of the dead miners are so easily manipulated - so sad.

"Andrew Little: No 'absolute guarantee' of Pike River Mine re-entry
Pike River Mine minister Andrew Little says he cannot guarantee a re-entry of the mine and has told family members that he will do what he can but safety is the top priority."

I don’t see it as backtracking, it is commonsense and the truth. No-one wants people to go into the mine if it is not safe. He will do what he can.

We only see what we want to see; we only hear what we want to hear. Our belief system is just like a mirror that only shows us what we believe. Don Miguel Ruiz
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/don_miguel_ruiz_564566

[Balance]

"Andrew Little: No 'absolute guarantee' of Pike River Mine re-entry
Pike River Mine minister Andrew Little says he cannot guarantee a re-entry of the mine and has told family members that he will do what he can but safety is the top priority."

I don’t see it as backtracking, it is commonsense and the truth. No-one wants people to go into the mine if it is not safe. He will do what he can.

We only see what we want to see; we only hear what we want to hear. Our belief system is just like a mirror that only shows us what we believe. Don Miguel Ruiz
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/don_miguel_ruiz_564566

Really? Common sense?

Where was the common sense when Peters and Little promised the families to facilitate the mine re-entry? There were no qualifications when they made the promises.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/88397825/Winston-Peters-to-visit-Pike-River-victims-families-on-West-Coast

"Peters had so much faith in the families' report by international experts he said he would be willing to enter the drift himself."

Yes indeed - no qualification at all. Peters believed the families' report is so good that he IS WILLING to enter the mine HIMSELF.

Question - Where is Winston?

[minimoke]

Where was the common sense when Peters and Little promised the families to facilitate the mine re-entry? There were no qualifications when they made the promises.John Key promised, Little promised, Peters promised.

Enough of the promises - just get on and get in there. Sooner they are in the sooner they are out and we can all put this sorry saga behind us.

[whatsup]

The sad facts but true are that the bodies would by this time have been eaten by rats that infest all mines, as all hunters know if your caught alone and badly injured in the bush you either climb up on to the biggest largest highest rock that you can find of hoist yourself up a tree into the best branches that you can manage as after a few days the wild pigs sniff you out and eat you.
A badly injured hunter who cannot defend him/herself usually lasts 4-6 days before being eaten by them.
The N Z bush can be a very unforgiving place as are unoccupied mines.
What ever the Pike River mine situation is the bodies or whats left of them need to come home to their loved ones but SAFETY FIRST , N Z's Mugabe well knows that !!

[minimoke]

The sad facts but true are that the bodies would by this time have been eaten by rats that infest all mines, as all hunters know if your caught alone and badly injured in the bush you either climb up on to the biggest largest highest rock that you can find of hoist yourself up a tree into the best branches that you can manage as after a few days the wild pigs sniff you out and eat you.
A badly injured hunter who cannot defend him/herself usually lasts 4-6 days before being eaten by them.
The N Z bush can be a very unforgiving place as are unoccupied mines.
What ever the Pike River mine situation is the bodies or whats left of them need to come home to their loved ones but SAFETY FIRST , N Z's Mugabe well knows that !!Thank You for the imagery.

If a bush pig can survive the mine then so can a human.

[Balance]

Thank You for the imagery.

If a bush pig can survive the mine then so can a human.

You have lost me, MM.

[Balance]

**************

https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/98390520/andrew-little-govt-may-waive-health-and-safety-laws-for-pike-river-reentry

So the Little one is not prepared to take responsibility if any person is hurt or killed in any re-entry attempt?

Bet you that there will NOT be a re-entry.

"He said he wanted to mitigate all the risks if possible, but if necessary the Government would consider passing laws exempting the new entity from health and safety laws to allow re-entry – something Little proposed when Labour was in opposition. Little said he considered the health and safety stance Solid Energy took regarding re-entry was "unreasonable".

[minimoke]

You have lost me, MM.
If a rat can enter the mine to eat bodies and survive then so can a pig. If a pig can so can a human.

[minimoke]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/98390520/andrew-little-govt-may-waive-health-and-safety-laws-for-pike-river-reentry

So the Little one is not prepared to take responsibility if any person is hurt or killed in any re-entry attempt? Bet you that there will NOT be a re-entry. .
Little doesn't need to take responsibility. Just send Winston in and let him shoulder the risk

[Balance]

Henceforth, she should be known as Backtrack Cindy.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-newzealand-mine/nz-leader-warns-re-entry-to-coal-mine-to-recover-bodies-could-prove-too-risky-idUKKBN1DK0K8?il=0

"Efforts to recover the bodies of 29 men entombed in a coal mine disaster in New Zealand seven years ago could be jeopardised over safety concerns, the country’s newly-elected Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern said on Monday."

What Backtrack Cindy is saying is that she disagrees with her DPM, Winston Shyster Peters, who has already stated that he believes in the families' international experts' opinion that the mine is safe to enter.

So if it is good enough for the shyster to enter, how can there be any safety concerns?

[minimoke]

Henceforth, she should be known as Backtrack Cindy.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-newzealand-mine/nz-leader-warns-re-entry-to-coal-mine-to-recover-bodies-could-prove-too-risky-idUKKBN1DK0K8?il=0

"Efforts to recover the bodies of 29 men entombed in a coal mine disaster in New Zealand seven years ago could be jeopardised over safety concerns, the country’s newly-elected Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern said on Monday."

What Backtrack Cindy is saying is that she disagrees with her DPM, Winston Shyster Peters, who has already stated that he believes in the families' international experts' opinion that the mine is safe to enter.

So if it is good enough for the shyster to enter, how can there be any safety concerns?
Oh FFS!!! "Ardern made a pre-election promise to create a plan within 100 days to reunite families with the remains of the lost men." Those concerns were well and truly canvassed so that anyone with half a brain would have been aware of them BEFORE making a promise.

[Balance]

Oh FFS!!! "Ardern made a pre-election promise to create a plan within 100 days to reunite families with the remains of the lost men." Those concerns were well and truly canvassed so that anyone with half a brain would have been aware of them BEFORE making a promise.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/883...-on-West-Coast

"Peters had so much faith in the families' report by international experts he said he would be willing to enter the drift himself."

The shyster promising and disappearing.

You gotto feel sorry for the dead miners' families that they can be so easily be taken in by a shyster.

[moka]

Henceforth, she should be known as Backtrack Cindy.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-newzealand-mine/nz-leader-warns-re-entry-to-coal-mine-to-recover-bodies-could-prove-too-risky-idUKKBN1DK0K8?il=0

"Efforts to recover the bodies of 29 men entombed in a coal mine disaster in New Zealand seven years ago could be jeopardised over safety concerns, the country’s newly-elected Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern said on Monday."

What Backtrack Cindy is saying is that she disagrees with her DPM, Winston Shyster Peters, who has already stated that he believes in the families' international experts' opinion that the mine is safe to enter.

So if it is good enough for the shyster to enter, how can there be any safety concerns?

Definition of name-calling
:the use of offensive names especially to win an argument or to induce rejection or condemnation (as of a person or project) without objective consideration of the facts
Synonyms: character assassination, mudslinging

[sb9]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/883...-on-West-Coast

"Peters had so much faith in the families' report by international experts he said he would be willing to enter the drift himself."

The shyster promising and disappearing.

You gotto feel sorry for the dead miners' families that they can be so easily be taken in by a shyster.

Very good discussion and good points there Balance.

Yeah, its just a shame that the new govt. seem to be doing u turn so quickly on this issue. Feel really sorry for the families involved.

[whatsup]

If a rat can enter the mine to eat bodies and survive then so can a pig. If a pig can so can a human.
M M , as you well know the oxygen sinks to the lowest point and gasses/ methane etc rise above that , at ground level that is where rats can live where humans cannot.
I never said that pigs were in the mine , only rats !!!

[ziggy415]

If a rat can enter the mine to eat bodies and survive then so can a pig. If a pig can so can a human.

its 100% methane inside the mine,nothing can survive..not even a flame....but open the door and you have possible ignition...and there in lies the problem

[Balance]

its 100% methane inside the mine,nothing can survive..not even a flame....but open the door and you have possible ignition...and there in lies the problem

But who are we (and for that matter, all the mine safety experts) to argue with Backtrack Cindy, Shyster Peters and the Little one?

They believe they are the true experts - hence, the promises to the dead miners' families to re-enter the mine.

[JohnnyTheHorse]

Little has obviously now read the H&S law and become aware of the fact that he would likely be personally liable if there was an accident.

[Balance]

Definition of name-calling
:the use of offensive names especially to win an argument or to induce rejection or condemnation (as of a person or project) without objective consideration of the facts
Synonyms: character assassination, mudslinging

Definition of shyster. :a person who is professionally unscrupulous especially in the practice of law or politics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7QbDCyeJkc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlcBgR5agFU

Shyster is actually too mild a term to use on Winston Shyster Peters.

[iceman]

Henceforth, she should be known as Backtrack Cindy.



Apparently they're calling her Cindy Astern now !

[greenglass]

Apparently they're calling her Cindy Astern now !

Love it! yea.

[Balance]

Apparently they're calling her Cindy Astern now !

Backtrack Cindy Astern?

Perfect!

[Balance]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11946460

How the families have been had - so desperate they were to believe that they have been taken in by Little and Peter.

Look at them sitting with the Little one as they take out their cash to buy yet another bible.

"The Cabinet has agreed to place the abandoned mine under the management of a new agency that will be given three objectives. The first, gather evidence about what may have caused the explosion. The second, give victims' loved ones "closure and peace of mind". Third, "if possible recover any human remains".

This is not exactly the undertaking in Labour's and NZ First's coalition agreement last month which stated simply "Commit to re-entry to Pike River".

What may have caused the explosion? Obviously the exhaustive RCI and its findings were a waste of time as the Little one, Shyster Peters & Backtrack Cindy Astern are the fountain of all knowledge.

[whatsup]

Backtrack Cindy Astern?

Perfect!

How about " Little Miss talkathon " ?

[horus1]

Little ,etc are doing what should have happened some years ago. The board and senior management of this debacle should have been in jail a long time ago.

[Balance]

Little ,etc are doing what should have happened some years ago. The board and senior management of this debacle should have been in jail a long time ago.


Agree with you 100% re board and management - complete and utter disgrace that in this day and age, an accident like that happened and nobody was found responsible!

The Little one, Shyster Peters and Backtrack Cindy Astern are NOT doing anything however to bring them to justice - on the contrary.

They played on the desperate feelings of the dead miners' families and are already reneging on the singular commitment to 're-enter the mine.'

[Joshuatree]

They played on the desperate feelings of the dead miners' families and are already reneging on the singular commitment to 're-enter the mine.'

Balance.You are doing what you accuse others of. Please think about this . If there is a way to retrieve the miners and investigate a crime scene , this govt will find it with the strategy and people and funds transparently laid out.

[minimoke]

Little has obviously now read the H&S law and become aware of the fact that he would likely be personally liable if there was an accident.I'm not sure that he would be personally liable. Certainly the Board and company behind any entry operation would be liable. But liability would be offset by providing evidence that risks had been managed so far as reasonably practicable.

There is nothing in law that prevents a mine / drift re-entry.

Managing "death" risks is something already done by NZ govt with our Military. Time for the politicians to stop the "safety" bulls1t and just get on with it.

This is likely NZ's largest industrial accident festering sore. It wont be healed until all has been done to send people down the drift as far as practicable possible. Its time for politicians to stop making political capital out of the hearts of the families of the miners. It is filthy despicable wordsmithing for the sole purpose of political gain. Disgusting!

[Balance]

Balance.You are doing what you accuse others of. Please think about this . If there is a way to retrieve the miners and investigate a crime scene , this govt will find it with the strategy and people and funds transparently laid out.

I am not playing and preying on the misfortunes of the families to get votes - pure and simple. I doubt very much the families read this forum but they certainly listen in and read every single word uttered by the Little one and Shyster Peters.

So you may want to reconsider how you are evaluating this whole sorry saga:

1. Where is SHYSTER PETERS?

2. WILL HE BE FIRST TO ENTER THE MINE - since he openly stated that he will do so as he is so confident of the families' report that it is safe to do so?

Only in NZ will you get the media so cowed that they will not follow up on such a commitment by a shyster.

I suspect you now have your answer?

PS. The dead miners' families have been had - pure and simple by Backtrack Cindy Astern.

[Joshuatree]

I suggest you stop ranting on here and take it out on a mattress with a broom handle:)
Your only real recourse i believe to get out of yet another hole you are digging deeper is to analyse with help what is really causing this immense anger within you which is deflected onto other issues. A chance to heal yourself with a momentary window of honesty and openness.
Failing that contact Bernie and report back to us what his view is. I dare you.

[Balance]

I suggest you stop ranting on here and take it out on a mattress with a broom handle:)
Your only real recourse i believe to get out of yet another hole you are digging deeper is to analyse with help what is really causing this immense anger within you which is deflected onto other issues. A chance to heal yourself with a momentary window of honesty and openness.
Failing that contact Bernie and report back to us what his view is. I dare you.

Bernie does not represent all the families - fact.

Where is Shyster Peters?

Repeat - Will he be first into the mine like he promised the families?

[Balance]

Jacinda Ardern on 13 September 2017 while politicking to the dead miners' families :

........... "We've always had specialist advice that says it is possible to do a safe, manned re-entry and that's what we've committed to."

No qualification & no equivocation.

........... "We will have a re-entry plan in place within the first 100 days."

So where's the re-entry plan based upon the specialist advice so quoted?

Shameless

Immoral

Disgusting

and

Totally cynical underhanded crookish behaviour by Backtrack Cindy Astern - preying on the feelings of dead miners' families.

Well, almost as bad as Shyster Peters.

I throw my worn out shoes at both of these two scumbags.

The dead miners' families have been had - pure and simple.

[minimoke]

Jacinda Ardern on 13 September 2017 while politicking to the dead miners' families :

........... "We've always had specialist advice that says it is possible to do a safe, manned re-entry and that's what we've committed to."

I expect no less. Cant understand this messing around with setting up this new agency with big budget when Labour already has the advice

[whatsup]

What do we expect from, Little Miss Talkathon !! ?

[Balance]

What do we expect from, Little Miss Talkathon !! ?

Honesty and integrity?

Guess it is impossible for her to hop into bed with Shyster Peters and not have some of his scum huh?

[steveb]

If this does go pear shaped we could well be looking at an election