NZ Oil & Gas (NZO)

[digger]

not just drilling - they could easily have been buying reserves. this thread was screaming about it in 2008 & 2009 when NOG was Tui rich & evryone was broke. The only investment management made was to double up on further finds in Tui using a vehicle controlled by the then chairman TR. It is a great shame as, if management had been wise they easily could have diversified thier proven reserves.

Your very right there dsurf IMHO.. Although it was DS in charge then not TR. Our biggest mistake was to look overseas too much and then miss what Tag is doing in our back yard.
Tag has some drilling coming up on the east coast basin that I think we should have a good hard look at.

[Marilyn Munroe]

- they could easily have been buying reserves.

The Americans call this "drilling for oil on Wall Street."

Boop boop de do

Marilyn

[arjay]

SP taking a dive this morning. Hasn't been sub 80c for a while - wonder what's up? At least it's pushing the dividend yield up ;)

[BigBob]

Nice big downtrend forming :)

Moose has called it as he did gold and DIL... It's time to load up... :o)

[zigzag]

Moose has called it as he did gold and DIL... It's time to load up... :o)

BB- Don't forget Moose wetting his wallow over SNK, before he heard of Mr Sorenson. ZZ.

[BigBob]

On a long enough time line, everyone is right ;)

On that we agree..... ;)

[dsurf]

The following article appeared in the herald. Does not even mention NZ's premier listed oil search company and partner of choice.



Search for oil in NZ hits top gear - A report into the oil and gas sector says the "rubber's finally hitting the road" with $2.2 billion about to be spent exploring around New Zealand.

The 2013 Edison Yearbook update finds that the exploration and production sector is embarking on its most intensive and expensive campaign ever and says heavyweights not already here, but known to be interested in New Zealand, include Chevron and Woodside.

During the next 12 months there are 98 wells to be sunk, 27 of them offshore.

Activity stretches from front-end wildcat exploration campaigns targeting frontier basins through to appraisal and production drilling of established fields.

Exploration Edison is highlighting includes:

•Anadarko's two-well deepwater campaign targeting each of the Taranaki and Canterbury basins.

•OMV's participation in a potential 20-well offshore campaign comprising multiple exploration, appraisal and development drilling components.

•Shell's leading of a standalone exploration well at Ruru off the Taranaki coast to supplement other substantial work programmes it is leading at each of Maui and Kapuni. Further out, the coming quarter should see the Shell-led Great South Basin joint venture reach a decision regarding the potential drilling of a wildcat well in its acreage in the area off the bottom of the South Island during 2015.

•Drilling of deeper and higher-impact onshore Kapuni formation prospects by TAG Oil to accompany those being drilled by Todd Energy (Mangahewa) and STOS (Kapuni).

There are now 34 companies exploring around the country or within the exclusive economic zone with Australian private company Mosman and the China National Offshore Oil Corporation entering into joint ventures.

"Encouragingly, we have noted a material upswing in interest and engagement levels shown by potential new entrants to the local sector, including a number of players of substantial corporate and financial weight," the report says.

Those assessing New Zealand include Chevron, Repsol, Woodside, Statoil and Santos and others are also known to be looking.

Anadarko and Origin's pending drilling of the Caravel prospect in the Canterbury Basin could be "transformational" for the New Zealand exploration and production sector.

"If, as Anadarko's analysis suggests, a discovery is gas-rich, the implications for the South Island in particular would likely be game-changing."

The report says that Anadarko's pending deepwater drilling campaign in 1500m-deep water with a half-billion-barrel potential 200km off the Taranaki coast is also significant.

"We consider that success by Anadarko with one or both wells this summer would serve as a catalyst for numerous other regional and global majors to commit to a New Zealand entry."

[brucey09]

Snr. dsurf
As you are saying one other good man pr. yes?

[sideline]

The following article appeared in the herald. Does not even mention NZ's premier listed oil search company and partner of choice.

............



dsurf,
that's just the Herald and their ongoing campaign against NZO. Noticed they were the only paper participating in the serialized attacks and
opinion pieces around Farish's ill advised comments. Now they are manipulating supposed 'news' stories to carry on their campaign.
Their journalistic integrity has obviously been discarded in favour of tabloid 'campaign' journalism.

[arjay]

Optimistic Noggers can take from para 2 that NZO is one of the heavyweights 'already here'.

[nextbigthing]

https://www.asbsecurities.co.nz/section240.asp

Can anybody tell me why NZO is a special case? (along with the others)?

Cheers,

NBT

[boysy]

So nzo is more than doubling its share in tui I think it's a great move for all members of the jv


http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20131002/pdf/42jsj4wyxjxrjy.pdf

[sideline]

So nzo is more than doubling its share in tui I think it's a great move for all members of the jv


http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20131002/pdf/42jsj4wyxjxrjy.pdf

Brilliant! At last years production figures that would have added 36m$ in revenue for that year alone and the total investment is only 7.7m$
Production will be declining over the years as expected of course, but still an excellent development.

[fabs]

Brilliant! At last years production figures that would have added 36m$ in revenue for that year alone and the total investment is only 7.7m$
Production will be declining over the years as expected of course, but still an excellent development.

May have just stopped S/P entering into free-fall.

[Casa del Energia]

Brilliant! At last years production figures that would have added 36m$ in revenue for that year alone and the total investment is only 7.7m$
Production will be declining over the years as expected of course, but still an excellent development.

And oi is unrisked p50, 'cheap' tie back with a new drinking straw to the boat. The Tea party can do what they like - nog sp should hold up while wall st goes subterraian.

[Corporate]

Taking a much larger share in tui makes this up coming drilling program hugely important for NZOG. If both wells are failures then NZOG have dwindling reserves and declining production...all while taking on a larger share of the decommissioning costs.

[Sideshow Bob]

What sort of numbers are involved in decommissioning of Tui??

[sideline]

Decommissioning costs? Tui??? Seal the wells and sell the Umuroa for a profit!

Kupe is more likely to have significant decommissioning costs
with a production facility on land and a platform and pipeline in the sea.

NZO accounts at 30-06-13 provision for approximately 30m total restoration and rehabilitation provision
costs, but don't break it down any further.

[Corporate]

better hope that amount is alrwady set aside in the accounts...

It will increase due to NZOG now having a larger share.

[Corporate]

Decommissioning costs? Tui??? Seal the wells and sell the Umuroa for a profit!

Kupe is more likely to have significant decommissioning costs
with a production facility on land and a platform and pipeline in the sea.

NZO accounts at 30-06-13 provision for approximately 30m total restoration and rehabilitation provision
costs, but don't break it down any further.

Sell the FPSO, NZOG don't own it!!

Don't forget about the WHP as well.

[Sideshow Bob]

better hope that amount is alrwady set aside in the accounts...

Well I think you mentioned another $323 today......

[sideline]

Sell the FPSO, NZOG don't own it!!

Don't forget about the WHP as well.

FPSO is leased only? Sorry, I forgot that. Means no scrapyard fees either, should it be past its use by date at the end of its tour of duty at TUI.

Now WHP? Kupe has one, but Tui has well heads on the ocean floor. Risers connect them directly to the Umuroa!

NZO accounts dated 31-12-2007 quote the provisions at 12m$, with Tui having started production and Kupe part-way through construction.

[Bella52]

Forsyth Barr Research - New Zealand Oil & Gas
Tui double down
NZO has acquired an additional 15% of the Tui permit at a cost of US$6.43m (NZ$7.7m) following the surprise exit of Mitsui from the permit. On the face of it, NZO appears to have got a good deal.
What’s changed?
 Earnings: FY14 EBITDAX up +$10.9m to +$72.6m
FY15 EBITDAX up +$8.3m to $59.6m
 Target Price: Unchanged at $0.95
 Recommendation: Unchanged at ACCUMULATE
Good deal for NZO
NZO has acquired an additional +15.0% of the Tui permit, taking its stake to 27.5% at a cost of US$6.43m (~NZ$7.7m). The purchase price values Tui at NZ$51m, compared to our valuation of NZ$104m. In essence, it appears that NZO has picked up the additional stake at half price. NZO is acquiring ~+1mmbls of reserves at a very reasonable ~US$6.40/barrel.
The exact reasons for Mitsui leaving the JV are unclear. That said, to the extent that Mitsui wanted to exit ahead of the drilling of Oi and Pateke, that would have weakened its bargaining position, aiding the cheap price. However, if the exit was driven by Mitsui’s view on value at Tui, that does raise some value questions, which would be put to rest by a successful drill (which is expected to commence later this year).
Increased upside to the drilling programme
Whilst, NZO’s stake in Tui has increased +120% to 27.5%, its stake in the Oi drill has only increased to 18.75% because Mitsui had a relatively small interest in that particular drill. If Oi is successful, it has the option to buy-back up to its 27.5% holding. PPP has retained its 50% interest in the drill. Our estimate of the unrisked value of Oi is +4cps higher to +13cps, however, our risked valuation is negligible as the drill has a low success rating. NZO’s exposure to the Pateke 4H well has increased commensurately.
The Matuku drill (which was to have started in September) will precede the Tui drills and NZO is currently flow testing the second Kisaran well.
Earnings and valuation implications
The acquisition (assuming Ministerial approval is granted, and it is hard to see why it would not) is effective 1 October 2013. That means three quarters of the financial year will include 27.5% of Tui’s earnings. Naturally that has led to an upgrade in our FY14 EBITDAX forecast of +$10.9m to $72.6m.
Our sum-of-the-parts valuation of Tui has increased +2cps to 5cps, however our NZO valuation is only +1cps higher due to modest changes to our NZDUSD fx assumption, lowering our oil price assumption in NZD terms. Whilst NZO is looking increasingly attractive, it does not quite reach our threshold to receive a BUY recommendation, hence our recommendation is unchanged.
Investment View
Our recommendation is ACCUMULATE. NZO is trading at a good discount to value, has a very attractive dividend yield, a good drilling programme in front of it and ~39cps of cash.

[sideline]

Thanks Bella for the info.

My guess why Mitsui wanted out is they are mostly a trader of oil and not comfortable with exploration and its
associated risk (the risk is both up and down). Just a guess.

chances for any drill in NZ waters (i.e. Taranaki) are generally 10% hit rate. It is a problem all explorers face.

[digger]

I like the idea of expecting a success at OI at 10% or less. Worth drilling but don't get your hopes up. If it is successful we can cheer then---a bit like Team nz.
Thanks Bella for that information.

[skid]

Actually a bit more like Oracle a few weeks ago

[Slowlearna]

MINE: NZO: Kisaran Exploration Well weekly update

The first open hole Drill Stem Test (DST) has been completed over a gross
interval of 246 feet in the Parit Minyak-3 (PM-3) well located in the Kisaran
PSC in onshore Sumatra, Indonesia.

NZ Oil & Gas is currently waiting for regulatory approval to release testing
results.

Preparations are being made for a second DST in cased hole over a gross
interval of 62 feet. Depending on the types of fluids and rates of flow, this
testing program could take 15-20 days.

The well has been drilled to a total depth (TD) of 8760 feet (2670 metres).



I'm Not sure how to read this, I guess some more waiting.

[Slowlearna]

I'm sure we could come up with a "regulatory approval to release" posts for you Moosie. :)
On second thoughts you would probably keep us too busy. :scared:
I see your just about to crack 5000 posts :t_up:

keep it up

[arjay]

Doesn't sound optimistic. I'm sure they would be able to say something about being cautiously optimistic, or encouraged, without upsetting the regulators. I'm still waiting for regulatory approval to forma solid opinion though.

[digger]

NZ Oil & Gas is currently waiting for regulatory approval to release testing results. - No news is good news, so we're delaying it for as long as possible.

...this testing program could take 15-20 days - Times that by about 3 from their record (and that's probably working days, not weekdays included!)

Just a confidence I am sure,but is that not about the time of the AGM?

[Snow Leopard]

A table of probabilities:



Fail
90%
Success
10%





0
1
2
3
4


1
90.00%
10.00%





2
81.00%
18.00%
1.00%




3
72.90%
24.30%
2.70%
0.10%



4
65.61%
29.16%
4.86%
0.36%
0.01%


5
59.05%
32.81%
7.29%
0.81%
0.05%


6
53.14%
35.43%
9.84%
1.46%
0.12%


7
47.83%
37.20%
12.40%
2.30%
0.26%


8
43.05%
38.26%
14.88%
3.31%
0.46%


9
38.74%
38.74%
17.22%
4.46%
0.74%


10
34.87%
38.74%
19.37%
5.74%
1.12%



With a 10% chance of any one drill being successful then:

7 drills is the minimum to have a better than 50% chance of at least one success;

10 drills and there is still about a 1 in 3 chance of 10 duds, about a 1 in 3 chance of only one success and about a 1 in 3 chance of 2 or more successes.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

[fabs]

Has nzo any-body capable interpreting data
Size mics etc. in its illustrious and well paid management team i wonder?
If the answer is yes, can we have a resume of any successes and track records please.

[digger]

Paper Tiger this post of yours has to be said as being statically true but in the real world of little value.
When I was about 8 or 9 I read a report about one of America most successful drillers. He was only successful because after a hugh string of failures he finally struck about 3 or 4 big ones in a row. Do not remember his name just the report
Each of us can put our own chances of success on these drills. From me I would certainly prefer that we drill and take the risk---that is what this oil sector is all about. From what I see around the world it just does not get better than 1 in 10 unless somebody is selling something.

[Snow Leopard]

Paper Tiger this post of yours has to be said as being statically true would be very difficult to deny that]
but in the real world of little value. [but here we go anyway :)]

When I was about 8 or 9 I read a report about one of America most successful drillers. He was only successful because after a hugh string of failures he finally struck about 3 or 4 big ones in a row. [What about all the other drillers?]

Do not remember his name just the report.

Each of us can put our own chances of success on these drills. From me I would certainly prefer that we drill and take the risk---that is what this oil sector is all about. [So you have a handy little table of probabilities to help you determine the risk/reward trade off].

From what I see around the world it just does not get better than 1 in 10 unless somebody is selling something.
[Do you want to buy a spreadsheet for calculating probabilities? :D]



Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

[brucey09]

Snrs.
This is what I ask. If drill down not good results. To make better chances why no drill to horizonal - yes?

[Slowlearna]

Hydrocarbons flowing at Kisaran PM-3 2:23pm, 10 Oct 2013 | MINE Gas and condensate flowed to the surface during drill stem testing of the first zone at the Parit Minyak-3 (PM-3) exploration well, located in the Kisaran PSC in onshore Sumatra, Indonesia.
Approval has been received from the Indonesian regulator for the release of testing results.
Flow testing of a gross open hole interval from 8520 feet (2598 meters) to 8760 feet (2671 meters) was completed on Thursday, 3 October.
The well flowed at a rate of approximately 3 million scf/d gas and 90 barrels/day condensate on a 28/64" choke and with a flowing tubing head pressure (FTHP) of approximately 1000 psi.
Further testing and analysis is needed to confirm the expected potential of the well. Tests are expected to continue throughout this month.
Preparations are being made for a second DST in cased hole at ca. 8350 feet (2546 meters) over a gross interval of 62 feet. Both tests are within Eocence/Oligocene Pematang sandstones.

[Casa del Energia]

Hydrocarbons flowing at Kisaran PM-3 2:23pm, 10 Oct 2013 | MINE Gas and condensate flowed to the surface during drill stem testing of the first zone at the Parit Minyak-3 (PM-3) exploration well, located in the Kisaran PSC in onshore Sumatra, Indonesia.
Approval has been received from the Indonesian regulator for the release of testing results.
Flow testing of a gross open hole interval from 8520 feet (2598 meters) to 8760 feet (2671 meters) was completed on Thursday, 3 October.
The well flowed at a rate of approximately 3 million scf/d gas and 90 barrels/day condensate on a 28/64" choke and with a flowing tubing head pressure (FTHP) of approximately 1000 psi.
Further testing and analysis is needed to confirm the expected potential of the well. Tests are expected to continue throughout this month.
Preparations are being made for a second DST in cased hole at ca. 8350 feet (2546 meters) over a gross interval of 62 feet. Both tests are within Eocence/Oligocene Pematang sandstones.

90 barrels over 240ft of bore on a half inch choke - things are looking up. A lot of gas though - not sure about that so much with all that shale gas coming to market.

[blockhead]

I have heard an Un Balanced rumour that it may be just dirty water and gas flowing from an on rig Board meeting.

Lets not get too excited just yet.

I am sure we will get a Balance d update anytime soon

[RTM]

So are you suggesting that it has a foul smell as well ? Surely even the board members could apply that test ? ;)
Good post Blockhead.

[Onthemoney]

http://www.sharechat.co.nz/article/0d669875/tui-deal-should-have-shifted-nzog-share-price-says-clare-capital.html

[J R Ewing]

Maybe the field is running down quicker than the published valuations would have us believe (I hope not)

[Tyro]

A table of probabilities:



Fail
90%
Success
10%





0
1
2
3
4


1
90.00%
10.00%





2
81.00%
18.00%
1.00%




3
72.90%
24.30%
2.70%
0.10%



4
65.61%
29.16%
4.86%
0.36%
0.01%


5
59.05%
32.81%
7.29%
0.81%
0.05%


6
53.14%
35.43%
9.84%
1.46%
0.12%


7
47.83%
37.20%
12.40%
2.30%
0.26%


8
43.05%
38.26%
14.88%
3.31%
0.46%


9
38.74%
38.74%
17.22%
4.46%
0.74%


10
34.87%
38.74%
19.37%
5.74%
1.12%



With a 10% chance of any one drill being successful then:

7 drills is the minimum to have a better than 50% chance of at least one success;

10 drills and there is still about a 1 in 3 chance of 10 duds, about a 1 in 3 chance of only one success and about a 1 in 3 chance of 2 or more successes.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Does anyone else have sufficient understanding of statistics to see th flaw in this table?

[Goldstein]

Does anyone else have sufficient understanding of statistics to see th flaw in this table?

It assumes statistical independence between drills - when that is not the case.

The same management chooses where to drill.
Further drilling may occur close to successful drilling.

If the next drill site was chosen completely at random on any spot on the planet, with the possibility of re-drilling an existing site, then we do indeed have a binomial distribution.

[winner69]

If the next drill site was chosen completely at random on any spot on the planet.

Jeez Goldstein I think you have solved all of NZO problems .... just a matter now of the Board deciding where the random spot be

[Goldstein]

Jeez Goldstein I think you have solved all of NZO problems .... just a matter now of the Board deciding where the random spot be

Winner69, what would be interesting is if there are any geologists out there who could give us a robust probability (Paper Tiger assumes 0.1) that a random drill anywahere on the planet to say 3km will strike commercial hydrocarbons. We could then look at NZO's record and see if they are doing better or worse than blind luck. If they were doing worse, the board should implement the random strategy ASAP.

I'd be prepared to consult for a very competitive fee.

[sideline]

Winner69, what would be interesting is if there are any geologists out there who could give us a robust probability (Paper Tiger assumes 0.1) that a random drill anywahere on the planet to say 3km will strike commercial hydrocarbons. We could then look at NZO's record and see if they are doing better or worse than blind luck. If they were doing worse, the board should implement the random strategy ASAP.

I'd be prepared to consult for a very competitive fee.

Sorry Goldstein, the 10% hitrate is the historical success rate for NZ offshore drills. (from memory I found it in some government papers for trying to promote NZ to overseas oil explorers.)
These are of course NOT random drills, but highly targeted drills after considering and evaluating all the info the seismic surveys can reveal. Still only 1 in 10 turned up a commercial find. And much bigger multinational exploreres than NZO were involved in most of them. I assume they know what they are doing.

[Goldstein]

Sorry Goldstein, the 10% hitrate is the historical success rate for NZ offshore drills. (from memory I found it in some government papers for trying to promote NZ to overseas oil explorers.)
These are of course NOT random drills, but highly targeted drills after considering and evaluating all the info the seismic surveys can reveal. Still only 1 in 10 turned up a commercial find. And much bigger multinational exploreres than NZO were involved in most of them. I assume they know what they are doing.

I hope so Sideline, I recently purchased some NZO ;)

[fish]

I hope so Sideline, I recently purchased some NZO ;)

my expectations are much higher than 1 in 10.
I hope up to date 3d mapping plus previous drilling should make oi a lot more likely
The latest pateke should be a near certainty

[digger]

my expectations are much higher than 1 in 10.
I hope up to date 3d mapping plus previous drilling should make oi a lot more likely
The latest pateke should be a near certainty

Pateke is a near certainty because it is a development well. Oi is exploration so we had better get our expectations back to the 1 in 10 so our hopes are not too high. Also note that after the recent buyout of Mitsui NZO exposure is now more than double, so pray twice as hard for success.

[sideline]

my expectations are much higher than 1 in 10.
I hope up to date 3d mapping plus previous drilling should make oi a lot more likely
The latest pateke should be a near certainty

Agree totally on Pateke - the well to be drilled is a production well, we already know the oil is there and the existing 3H well just can't get that portion of the oil out.

With regards to OI I'm hopeful but until the drill comes up oily we won't know.

[777]

I like the opening quotes this morning. A bit of interest starting to show.

[Goldstein]

I've sold all my nzo this morning due to the US funding fiasco. I was hoping to ride the exploration they are doing, but I'm just not prepared to take the risk.

I really don't have a clue how that is going to play out - seems like someone has to lose political face to me or else we'll see another shake up.

[fabs]

Good on you gold stein

[Goldstein]

I'm not sure there is much to worry about with the US situation. In saying that though IF there is an issue it will be a BIG one so I respect the concern you have and reasons for getting out. 99.9% chance they get it sorted though IMHO.

Yes, I should say that I'm reasonably sure it will get sorted (I don't want to alarm anyone), but I'm only about 90% sure and that is too big a risk for me. I'm a bit cautious I guess.

It's interesting to note that around the world investors don't seem to be in panic mode over this. Maybe the investment community is just becoming more tolerant of risk.

[Banksie]

Well suspension is the wellhead sealing for a particular period of time in order to save the wellbore during the drilling process or after the end of it. Well conservation is performed for a short period of time (several months) during the process of drilling (http://www.gazprominfo.com/terms/drilling/): in case of appearance in the subsurface of complicating mining-and-geological conditions, in case of well pad drilling – until the end of construction of all wells in the pad, in case of the field development – until the end of the field infrastructure development, or for a long term after the field development.

In order to save a drilled wellbore, separate well intervals formed by unstable rocks are secured for the period of conservation by a cement slurry (cement plugs) or by another binding material (for instance, by resins). These intervals are drilled through in case of well operations resuming. In case of well conservation for a long period, the X-mas tree is coated by the anticorrosion coating.

[777]

So in short, suspension is better news than abandoned?

[neopoleII]

so both wells are suspended........
what does the drilling rig and its crew now do?
go on holiday or off to a new contract?
sort of left in the dark here once again..........

[RTM]

But if it was good news...then we would have had a more positive announcement ? Mr Market seems to be very neutral. I suppose that tells us what we need to know.

[digger]

But if it was good news...then we would have had a more positive announcement ? Mr Market seems to be very neutral. I suppose that tells us what we need to know.

This basically to my mind has two parts.
First I suspect more testing needs to be done before any conclusion can be made
And secondly

Until the host country allows release of news there can be no news.
Still it as one poster above has said it is suspended not abandoned.

[Banksie]

Heard those apes in Sumatra are something to behold. Quite comparable to the ones around the NZO board table I've heard!

Terrible PR work once again NZO, hats off to ya ;)

Lol - yeah I had been thinking that they should rather send weekly weather reports from Kisaran, a lot more informative and easier to understand than these drilling updates.

[spirit]

Just opened my mail and see the AGM is Tuesday next week. Pity as I'm in town the next day and would have been useful to look in and assess their mettle as this latest AR is quite concerning - all gloss and no substance. So by inference wondering how much substance there is in management. On the face of it, not much.

[Sideshow Bob]

Investor presentation in Dunedin, not sure the last time was. Going to head along and assess the sausage rolls......

[fabs]

investor presentation in dunedin, not sure the last time was. Going to head along and assess the sausage rolls......

yummmmmmmmm!

[Sideshow Bob]

Hmmm, everyone must still be at the AGM, or taking in all the action of MELCA.

Tony Radford dumped out and fairly large negative vote on returning Scoffham and Richtie.

Meanwhile the shareprice tries it best to head back into the 70's.......

[arjay]

Poor old Tony - a sad acknowledgment of the fact that over 30 years he worked tirelessly to build NZO up from a 50c/share to an 80c/share company.

[Sayce]

i would love to hear the reasons for Tony Radford's demise as a Board member

[Xerof]

i would love to hear the reasons for Tony Radford's demise as a Board member

LOL, be careful what you ask for....

leave it to you Bal. :D

[Balance]

LOL, be careful what you ask for....

leave it to you Bal. :D

You can fool some of the people all of the time,
and all of the people some of the time,
and in the case of NZOG, fool most of the Noggers all of the time,
but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.

Suspect last straw for the big shareholders is how Radford hid under NZOG's skirts and did not front ONCE over the tragic Pike River disaster - a tragedy created, funded and ultimately, caused by negligence of NZOG and Pike River.

[J R Ewing]

It seems very odd that it would go down in this way. One would have thought TR would have known that he lost the support of the major shareholders and would have simply retired.

[winner69]

So 99% of voting shareholders said no to giving something the pike river dead families

Just shows that shareholders these days are not owners per se ......just interested in the share price and nothing else

Any respectable 'owner(s)' (albeit one owner or thousands of shareholders) would have shown some remorse.

[brucey09]

Snr. Winner69
You happy to be personal responsible for your govments actions, yes? You own NZ!

[minimoke]

On one hand they did show remorse to unsecured creditors. Nzog paid those prc debts out of insurance. Prc has a new debt and usually Employees wage's and tax ranks above unsecured creditors in a liquidation.

On the other hand nzog largesse towards unsecured creditors means the pot is now empty for employees.

Nzog took the moral high ground with unsecured creditors. Seems they have left that ground now. Says a lot about nzog holders.

[minimoke]

Snr. Winner69
You happy to be personal responsible for your govments actions, yes? You own NZ!
Brucey , in a sense we are but may not be happy about it. For example if the justice system makes a mistake the government can pay compensation. Except we know the government doesn't actually pay. We, the tax payers do. We either pay more tax. Or money that would have got spent on say hip surgery for old folks doesn't get spent.

That's a price we tax payers pay for the actions and mistakes of our government

[blackcap]

That may be so, but NZOG did not make a mistake and as such should not have to pay for the failings of Pike River Coal Ltd. Pike River Coal Ltd and directors and management et al should be liable. Not owners of Pike. Why not get compensation from all Pike Shareholders, rather than just target NZOG.

[brucey09]

Brucey , in a sense we are but may not be happy about it. For example if the justice system makes a mistake the government can pay compensation. Except we know the government doesn't actually pay. We, the tax payers do. We either pay more tax. Or money that would have got spent on say hip surgery for old folks doesn't get spent.

That's a price we tax payers pay for the actions and mistakes of our government

Snr Minimoke
Si, I understand but not agree - small holder of share no voice or influence in NZ.

[Balance]

Snr Minimoke
Si, I understand but not agree - small holder of share no voice or influence in NZ.

Not when they act like Noggers - see no evil, hear no evil - especially when it is the truth.

[Balance]

It seems very odd that it would go down in this way. One would have thought TR would have known that he lost the support of the major shareholders and would have simply retired.

The guy lives in cloud cuckoo land.

He was totally out of touch with reality and getting kicked out of the Board in such a fashion points to the dysfunctional state NZOG has been in for the last 5 years at least.

That's why Pike River Coal disaster and tragedy happened - a dysfunctional, incompetent and fat cat Board and management.

[Balance]

On one hand they did show remorse to unsecured creditors. Nzog paid those prc debts out of insurance. Prc has a new debt and usually Employees wage's and tax ranks above unsecured creditors in a liquidation.

On the other hand nzog largesse towards unsecured creditors means the pot is now empty for employees.

Nzog took the moral high ground with unsecured creditors. Seems they have left that ground now. Says a lot about nzog holders.

Wait for the law suits.

Then, NZOG can expect to pay tens of millions of dollars.

[brucey09]

Wait for the law suits.

Then, NZOG can expect to pay tens of millions of dollars.
Snr. Balance
NZ liable shareholder limited I think. Yes?

[Balance]

Snr. Balance
NZ liable shareholder limited I think. Yes?

NZOG directors get sued for gross negligence?

Covered by NZOG?

[blackcap]

NZOG directors get sued for gross negligence?



That is not going to happen though is it.

[Balance]

That is not going to happen though is it.

Look at what's happening with Feltex.

Just needs one of the Aussie law firms specializing in such suits to take action?

[fish]

Look at what's happening with Feltex.

Just needs one of the Aussie law firms specializing in such suits to take action?

No problems about prc directors being sued.
It would be a first in nz if individual shareholders are deemed responsible-as the ignorant press are making out.

[blackcap]

For those interested... NZOG director on Cambell Live tonight.

[neopoleII]

just watched AK on tv....... nice guy, spoke well and intelligent ...... but no match for a politically motivated and skilled "journo" who gets paid to navigate an intervene to the required direction.
sad times ahead for NZ business if a Journo can change business law via political TV spin doctoring.

[blackcap]

just watched AK on tv....... nice guy, spoke well and intelligent ...... but no match for a politically motivated and skilled "journo" who gets paid to navigate an intervene to the required direction.
sad times ahead for NZ business if a Journo can change business law via political TV spin doctoring.
Yes I agree with you here totally neopoleII. Cambell is not very independent these days is he.

[Chippie]

I thought AK did okay. My feeling is that John Campbell did not know anything except for the judgement in front of him.

[winner69]

I thought AK did okay. My feeling is that John Campbell did not know anything except for the judgement in front of him.

Knight did pretty well.

Love Campbels 'moral paradigm' phrase whatever that means

Whatever money has won out over 'morals' and again I say shareholds these days are not owner's of a business, they only interested in the shareprice.

[percy]

Whatever money has won out over 'morals' and again I say shareholds these days are not owner's of a business, they only interested in the shareprice.

If I agreed with you,then we would both be wrong.!

[Stu]

The whole interview was another idiotic circus act from John Campbell, not much Knight could do but politely humour Campbell. He couldn't exactly say that Campbell had made a bigger profit last year than most NZO shareholders (and profited more from the Pike disaster) so why not chip in John? Nor could he remark on the fact that equally profitable judges have now deviated from their generous pay scale of what is law, to the altogether different planet of what is morality.

[Balance]

Good that AK fronted up - compared to that king size coward, Radford, who rightly has been dumped.

But AK was not convincing - he kept skirting the real question - do the victim's families deserve compensation from NZOG?

Well, Mr Knight, you will be aware that NZOG was the promotor, supporter and sponsor of Pike River Coal.

You will also be aware that NZOG kept pumping money (in fact, NZOG was consistently the principal underwriter) into Pike River when there were clear indications of how dysfunctional the mine and management were.

THE SUPPORT FROM NZOG allowed Pike River to continue with its folly of operating an unsafe mine, LEADING TO THE DEATHS OF 29 MINERS.

Now you are trying to argue that NZOG has no moral obligation to contribute to the victims' families?

You are using shareholders, who NZOG normally does not care a hoot, to justify your morally corrupt stance?

Shame on you.

[Balance]

Karma, Mr Knight, says NZOG will never prosper as long as the company does not do the right and moral thing by the victims' families.

[brucey09]

Snr. Balance
You have bad view for NZOG based on very nice judgement for you. Judge Farish also move trial of Whittle into Wellington. Also good for you?

[digger]

Karma, Mr Knight, says NZOG will never prosper as long as the company does not do the right and moral thing by the victims' families.

There are dozens of things that stand out about the Pike tragedy. One of the worst is now how things are getting twisted.
Lets look just for a second at the Judges comment that NZO could pay.My take is that a mere 29 people were killed in PIKE. Countless hundreds of thousands were killed over the centuries getting our Judicial system set up.Central to our justice system is that you are entitled to your day in court before being pronounced guilty . This judge to the delight of some people jump to the conclusions that NZO is somehow responsible .
When NZO started giving money to PIKE after the accident I wondered if they were correct in doing so. They on several occasions were far more generous than 99.9 % of other companies would have been. Can anyone tell me where any other company as first charge gave away two unsecured creditors money they did not have to under law. Note how the Bank took all there money and literally no one asks them to pay as they also helped to set up PIKE and now have the income to pay. To some brains this gets converted into not generosity but quilt. Therefor pay more and forever .
The Australians delight in telling us PIKE accident would not have happened in Australia. Accident Inspectors were not weakened there as is the case in NZ.I strongly suspect that the Greens would not have been allowed to force the mine to be run in a second or third rate safety manner as they did in NZ by not allowing a road above the mine to drill ventilation breathing holes. Note two days after the tragedy the track was allowed. Quilt to the greens if there ever was one,yet on one asked them to pay for there direct part in the accident.
When do I stop. What about ACC?????
So we have the banks, the greens, Mine Inspectors, Journalist, the govt---none of which paid so we get stuck into NZO which now somewhat foolishly in hindsight made some contributions . Therfore NZO is guilty.
The tragedy of 29 men killed should be enough without killing off our reasoning ability with twisted logic.

[Slowlearna]

surly the FAMILIES do get some sort of pay out.

It is my understanding that this is the reason we have ACC and pay levies.
Higher levies depending on the risks and apparent danger of the industry

What support does a family get when someone dies following an injury? After an accidental death, ACC can offer assistance to help pay for funeral expenses and, depending upon each case’s circumstances, other types of support can be available to mean ongoing bills too.
After a death, these are the four main types of support ACC can provide:


Funeral grants to help with funeral costs (including burial/cremation and ceremonies)
Survivor’s grants, which are one-off payments paid to the partner/spouse and children of the person who has died
Childcare payments, which are ongoing payments to support children/dependants of the person who has died
Weekly compensation if the person who died was an income earner – a portion of their average weekly income can be paid for a period of time.

This support can be available no matter how old the person was when they died, and no matter what they were doing at the time of injury, eg at home, at work, driving or playing sport.



Money will never be the answer to a tragic loss but I'm sure it helps.

When my father died in a road accident we as his dependents received ACC payments for 5 years up until the age of 18 (about $5000 a year paid weekly) and my mother also received payments for 5 years, about 80% of Dads wage.
This was in the mid 90's and I'm sure its different now but seems there is still prevision.

I'm still of the opinion that NZO should pay some more to the Pike families (not because they have to but because they want to) but it would seem I'm in the minority of shareholders who think this should happen.

With respect
Slowlearna

[pietrade]

You're right on the button as usual Digger with your larger vision and historic perspective. So nice to have your reasoned response, unpolluted by the hysteria of the 'Un' Balanced.
Unfortunately, by it's early substantial contribution/demonstration-of-compassion, Nzog has become the scapegoat in the eyes of the blind. How complicit/guilty then is the mine inspector, whose job it was to police the mine's safety and lost a son in the tragedy?

The government's reduction of the mine inspectorate, must be seen as the PRIME cause of this sad event. Everyone else is merely a bit player and attempting to transfer the guilt to them is iniquitous .

[skid]

Do the victims families deserve compensation from NZOG?---Lets face it -thats an incredibility emotionally charged question.
They could have just as easily said ''should NZOG be made to compensate for decisions made by another company.
How about-Is it worth charging another $1500 for vehicle registration if it helps to save 1 life like the jones's son.

The usual crusaders are back

[Balance]

So we have the banks, the greens, Mine Inspectors, Journalist, the govt---none of which paid so we get stuck into NZO which now somewhat foolishly in hindsight made some contributions . Therfore NZO is guilty.
The tragedy of 29 men killed should be enough without killing off our reasoning ability with twisted logic.

By your logic, the drunken driver of a car with bald tyres and faulty steering, expired WOF and headlights not working who killed a family on a Sunday drive is not guilty. It's the Police as they should have caught him before he killed.

NZOG was the promotor, sponsor and funder of Pike River.

NZOG seconded management to Pike.

NZOG pumped in ever more money when Pike ran into funding problems.

As John Campbell said accurately, NZOG put in money to pay unsecured creditors - BECAUSE NZOG believed the mine could be recovered - not out of the charity and moral fibre of NZOG.

And we still have Noggers here who believe NZOG is but a shareholder in Pike!

Yeah Right!

[Balance]

The government's reduction of the mine inspectorate, must be seen as the PRIME cause of this sad event. Everyone else is merely a bit player and attempting to transfer the guilt to them is iniquitous .

Prime cause was an unsafe mine built without safety considerations.

Who can forget Peter Whittall laughing and joking about the difficulty of using the escape shaft, and not bothering to turn up at a drill to test the shaft?

The company relied on the 108m high ventilation shaft as its sole escape route - which included a 55m vertical ladder - for emergency escape.

Whose fault is that?

Use your profound broad vision, think hard and then, answer.

The families of the dead miners deserve you thinking hard on this one.

[sideline]

..........should NZOG be made to compensate for decisions made by another company.
.......The usual crusaders are back

If it was ever established that shareholders are liable in such a way for things that go wrong with their investment companies there wouldn't be much left to invest in on the NZX.

I agree with Digger and others here that the early generosity of NZOG was ill conceived and is now misconstrued. Shows it just doesn't pay to be generous!

No point engaging the 'usual crusaders' in this debate.

[Sideshow Bob]

Apparently there is a book coming out about Pike shortly.

[sideline]

Apparently there is a book coming out about Pike shortly.

only one??

[pierre]

Apparently there is a book coming out about Pike shortly.

I thought Balance had already written one on here!

[minimoke]

The government's reduction of the mine inspectorate, must be seen as the PRIME cause of this sad event. Everyone else is merely a bit player and attempting to transfer the guilt to them is iniquitous .
For petes sake! Are you really suggesting you want government departments poking around in NZ industry and giving the OK for everything we do.

The Prime cause is PRC f%#cked up. Nothing more nothing less. You can't blame the Greens you cant blame the government. You can only blame the company for making bad decisions.

At best you can point the bone at those who were encouraging those decisions. The Greens and Government didn't force NZOG to invest in PRC to dig a great big hole in a dodgy area. The Greens and Govt didn't force them to build one huge vertical "escape" shaft and all the rest of the things that went wrong. They weren't forced to keep throwing good money after bad.

You need to ask who was paying the piper. Once you have answered that you will know who was calling the tune.

[minimoke]

If it was ever established that shareholders are liable in such a way for things that go wrong with their investment companies there wouldn't be much left to invest in on the NZX.


There will be no change to the concept of limited liability - and that is the right thing. The reparations debt lies firmly on PRC's shoulders.

What is moot is how PRC funds, particularly insurance payments, were distributed. It is NZOG that took those funds for its own benefit. It wasn't NZOG cash that paid the unsecured creditors - it was PRC cash. So in one sense there is an argument that they should / could repatriate that cash back to PRC to enable PRC to meet its new debt obligations.

If we could rewind the clock the unsecured creditors would be down the list of who gets paid what in a liquidation. I don't know the law on employee (or estate) rights to damages / reparations. But the law is clear that employee entitlements are well above those of unsecured creditors.

NZOG has taken away the ability to have that discussion.

[Goldstein]

Yep, have to agree minimoke. I understand what you are saying digger, and I really don't think NZO are to blame.

Regardless of whether NZ's mining inspectorate is adequate, the PRC management team were responsible for operating the mine and failed. From time to time I deal with companies in the offshore oil and gas game. Everyone I've dealt with has been professional and extremely worried about getting things right in terms of averting disaster. There's never any question of not delaying operations if there is a safety or environmental issue.

[brucey09]

Yep, have to agree minimoke. I understand what you are saying digger, and I really don't think NZO are to blame.

Regardless of whether NZ's mining inspectorate is adequate, the PRC management team were responsible for operating the mine and failed. From time to time I deal with companies in the offshore oil and gas game. Everyone I've dealt with has been professional and extremely worried about getting things right in terms of averting disaster. There's never any question of not delaying operations if there is a safety or environmental issue.
Snr. Goldstein
The causes you forget may be the workers in the mine. Safe no safe they decided to being in work.

[Balance]

Snr. Goldstein
The causes you forget may be the workers in the mine. Safe no safe they decided to being in work.

You are making a huge assumption that they knew that the mine was not safe to work in.

[Balance]

For petes sake! Are you really suggesting you want government departments poking around in NZ industry and giving the OK for everything we do.

The Prime cause is PRC f%#cked up. Nothing more nothing less. You can't blame the Greens you cant blame the government. You can only blame the company for making bad decisions.

At best you can point the bone at those who were encouraging those decisions. The Greens and Government didn't force NZOG to invest in PRC to dig a great big hole in a dodgy area. The Greens and Govt didn't force them to build one huge vertical "escape" shaft and all the rest of the things that went wrong. They weren't forced to keep throwing good money after bad.

You need to ask who was paying the piper. Once you have answered that you will know who was calling the tune.

Bang on, Minimoke.

But we are trying to reason here with the logic of Noggers - see no evil, hear no evil - everyone is at fault but NZOG.

[brucey09]

You are making a huge assumption that they knew that the mine was not safe to work in.
Snr. Balance
I reading gas meters removed stopped. Yes? Who did?

[skid]

By your logic, the drunken driver of a car with bald tyres and faulty steering, expired WOF and headlights not working who killed a family on a Sunday drive is not guilty. It's the Police as they should have caught him before he killed.

NZOG was the promotor, sponsor and funder of Pike River.

NZOG seconded management to Pike.

NZOG pumped in ever more money when Pike ran into funding problems.

As John Campbell said accurately, NZOG put in money to pay unsecured creditors - BECAUSE NZOG believed the mine could be recovered - not out of the charity and moral fibre of NZOG.

And we still have Noggers here who believe NZOG is but a shareholder in Pike!

Yeah Right!

Give us a break--by your logic the mate who chipped in $200 so Johnny could buy a car should be blamed for Johnnys actions.
It was Johnny who stuffed up.
You must be pretty stressed knowing that you bear some of the responsibility of anything going wrong with any co. you
have shares in(you realize that its your job to check and make sure nothing does go wrong)
Im assuming that you consider NZOG responsible for anything that goes wrong with PPP as well.

[Balance]

Give us a break--by your logic the mate who chipped in $200 so Johnny could buy a car should be blamed for Johnnys actions.
It was Johnny who stuffed up.
You must be pretty stressed knowing that you bear some of the responsibility of anything going wrong with any co. you
have shares in(you realize that its your job to check and make sure nothing does go wrong)
Im assuming that you consider NZOG responsible for anything that goes wrong with PPP as well.

If the mate continued to chip in petrol money, knowing that Johnny is not up to maintaining the car and has already had a few accidents, yes - his mate must also take responsibility.

Which part of NZOG's role do you not understand?

Promoting Pike?

Sponsoring Pike?

Underwriting capital raising one after another? Mishap after mishap after mishaps?

Seconding management?

Pumping in money after the explosion to protect NZOG's investment?

[winner69]

If the mate continued to chip in petrol money, knowing that Johnny is not up to maintaining the car and has already had a few accidents, yes - his mate must also take responsibility.

Which part of NZOG's role do you not understand?

Promoting Pike?

Sponsoring Pike?

Underwriting capital raising one after another? Mishap after mishap after mishaps?

Seconding management?

Pumping in money after the explosion to protect NZOG's investment?

in the hope they make shareholders rich

[Goldstein]

Has any stock polarised this forum more - I remember FFS (TEN) back in the day.

As far as NOG goes this is a great opportunuity for some of us to put our emotions in check and try to look objectively at this stock.

They are not evil incarnate and we shouldn't fall into the trap of not wanting to go near for emotional reasons. You can still make money out of a company you don't like. If you don't somebody else will.

Things to consider are:
1. Is the company liable for PRC. No.
2. Burning cash. Well, they are an oil explorer. They may be doing all the right things and still get a negative result.
3. Do they have an active exploration programme. Yes.
4. Do they have effctive management/governance. This is always the hardest (for me anyway) to answer.

I don't own any NZO, but they are on my radar. They are a way of getting exposure to the NZ oils and gas industry.

As far as supporting PRC's reparation to the mining families, I think it would be a nice gesture from NZO. However, they are trying to do what is right in terms of the company.

[Balance]

in the hope they make shareholders rich

Or keep the directors and management in clover, honey, caviar, first class travel and all the perks?

[Balance]

Has any stock polarised this forum more - I remember FFS (TEN) back in the day.

As far as NOG goes this is a great opportunuity for some of us to put our emotions in check and try to look objectively at this stock.

They are not evil incarnate and we shouldn't fall into the trap of not wanting to go near for emotional reasons. You can still make money out of a company you don't like. If you don't somebody else will.

Things to consider are:
1. Is the company liable for PRC. No.
2. Burning cash. Well, they are an oil explorer. They may be doing all the right things and still get a negative result.
3. Do they have an active exploration programme. Yes.
4. Do they have effctive management/governance. This is always the hardest (for me anyway) to answer.

I don't own any NZO, but they are on my radar. They are a way of getting exposure to the NZ oils and gas industry.

As far as supporting PRC's reparation to the mining families, I think it would be a nice gesture from NZO. However, they are trying to do what is right in terms of the company.

Buying NZOG to get exposure to NZ oils and gas industry is equivalent to backing the Japanese to getting exposure to rugby.

You buy into the best - not because it's there!*

[Balance]

As far as supporting PRC's reparation to the mining families, I think it would be a nice gesture from NZO. However, they are trying to do what is right in terms of the company.

Believe you me, karma will not allow a company with the death of 29 men on its conscience to prosper.

[fabs]

Believe you me, karma will not allow a company with the death of 29 men on its conscience to prosper.

PRC apart from gross incompetence was also Jinxed from the word go, don't want to go over old ground here,too many weird incidences over the life of the Co.
This call it what you will may very-well transfer if it has not already to NZO

[digger]

Believe you me, karma will not allow a company with the death of 29 men on its conscience to prosper.

What a lot of witchcraft talk. The 29 men died because the mine blew up due to two thing---a built up of methane and a spark to set off the explosion.
The methane built up turns out to be natural for this type of mine. What is not natural is the way every attempt to mointer this builtup was frustrated by the miner and contractors. The spark could well have come from any one of the miner sneaking off to some private spot to have a smoke. We may never know but we do know that most smoked and evidence of smoking was often found. We also know that prior to the main explosion there were several smaller one in the days and weeks beforehand. These should have set off alarm bells but it is a sad fact that when you get mostly young men together they do not move in the direction of safety but to toughtness.
Only rubbish talk and witchcraft thinking somehow twists this back to death on NZO conscience or its shareholders. An attempt to turn the clock back to the middle ages where some posters mentality clearly belongs.

[Balance]

What a lot of witchcraft talk. The 29 men died because the mine blew up due to two thing---a built up of methane and a spark to set off the explosion.
The methane built up turns out to be natural for this type of mine. What is not natural is the way every attempt to mointer this builtup was frustrated by the miner and contractors. The spark could well have come from any one of the miner sneaking off to some private spot to have a smoke. We may never know but we do know that most smoked and evidence of smoking was often found. We also know that prior to the main explosion there were several smaller one in the days and weeks beforehand. These should have set off alarm bells but it is a sad fact that when you get mostly young men together they do not move in the direction of safety but to toughtness.
Only rubbish talk and witchcraft thinking somehow twists this back to death on NZO conscience or its shareholders. An attempt to turn the clock back to the middle ages where some posters mentality clearly belongs.

Watch, observe and learn, Digger.

10 years from now, you will still be blaming everyone and everything else but the incompetence and expediency of directors and management for the Pike River disaster.

You have stooped to a new low in trying to blame one of the dead miners for causing the disaster.

And you will be wondering why NZOG cannot get anything right in those 10 years - dry hole after dry hole, bad investment after bad investment - and AK will be still talking about his moral compass and his ethical consideration, after consulting shareholders!

NZOG is happy to blow millions of dollars pursuing its exploratory 'investment' in Tunisia but will not spend a lousy 1.5% of the hoard of cash NZOG sits on - which will make a material difference to the families of the dead miners. And we know a big chunk of that cash comes from the insurance claim on Pike River.

[sideline]

What a lot of witchcraft talk. The 29 men died because the mine blew up due to two thing---a built up of methane and a spark to set off the explosion.
The methane built up turns out to be natural for this type of mine. What is not natural is the way every attempt to mointer this builtup was frustrated by the miner and contractors. The spark could well have come from any one of the miner sneaking off to some private spot to have a smoke. We may never know but we do know that most smoked and evidence of smoking was often found. We also know that prior to the main explosion there were several smaller one in the days and weeks beforehand. These should have set off alarm bells but it is a sad fact that when you get mostly young men together they do not move in the direction of safety but to toughtness.
Only rubbish talk and witchcraft thinking somehow twists this back to death on NZO conscience or its shareholders. An attempt to turn the clock back to the middle ages where some posters mentality clearly belongs.

Digger,
Not much point engaging un-balanced on this. The irrational, obsessive and vindictive talk clearly indicates that s/he is not open to rational arguments or facts. A case for the mental health professionals, I suspect.
Anyone like un-balanced stating that workers didn't know that Pike was dangerous must be living in cloud-cuckoo-land. All underground coal mines are dangerous and have methane issues and that danger must be respected and mitigated. EVERY coal miner knows this, and that it requires a bit more than wearing a hard hat and a high-viz vest.

[Balance]

Digger,
Not much point engaging un-balanced on this. The irrational, obsessive and vindictive talk clearly indicates that s/he is not open to rational arguments or facts. A case for the mental health professionals, I suspect.
Anyone like un-balanced stating that workers didn't know that Pike was dangerous must be living in cloud-cuckoo-land. All underground coal mines are dangerous and have methane issues and that danger must be respected and mitigated. EVERY coal miner knows this, and that it requires a bit more than wearing a hard hat and a high-viz vest.

Proud to be un-balanced if you call my warnings about Pike River Coal well before the explosion and the deaths un-balanced.

[spirit]

Did anyone get to any of the meetings last week? Were any of NZOG's geo's in attendance and if so did they have anything meaningful to say?

[Balance]

NZOG's definition of success and continued success :

Market capitalization now = $341m

New capital raised since 2005 = $328m

(2008 -$193m, 2007 - $62m, 2006 - $30m and 2005 - $43m - sources : ARs)

"It's a pleasure to join you to review the year and look ahead to a future in which your
company is well placed for continued success."

Now we know the veracity of NZOG's moral conviction by their definition of continued success.

Be afraid, be very very very afraid!

[winner69]

NZOG's definition of success and continued success :

Market capitalization now = $341m

New capital raised since 2005 = $328m

(2008 -$193m, 2007 - $62m, 2006 - $30m and 2005 - $43m - sources : ARs)

"It's a pleasure to join you to review the year and look ahead to a future in which your
company is well placed for continued success."

Now we know the veracity of AK's moral conviction by his definition of continued success.

Be afraid, be very very very afraid!

Interesting numbers balance

They do still have $150m of it sitting in the bank ... that some effort

[arjay]

They say that ignorance of the law is no defense. If it turns out that NZO shareholders really are ignorant of natural justice and that NZO is in fact liable then I reckon a greater injustice will have been done in that (as we all know) Balance was the only non-ignorant person and knew that the disaster was going to happen before it did, yet will get off scott-free having done nothing to avert the tragedy before it happened.

[Sideshow Bob]

Did anyone get to any of the meetings last week? Were any of NZOG's geo's in attendance and if so did they have anything meaningful to say?

At the meeting I was at, just the Chairman and CEO. Tunisia actually sounded reasonably interesting, but would have been betting the company on it. Trying to sell the permit. Results from Indonesia are still being assessed, but reading between the lines I would say they are reasonably confident on this, and in a known area.

Bit of talk about the permit about 45km off the coast of Oamaru. Anadarko have the next permit east, off the edge of the shelf in about 1500m, but NZO's is in about 120km. Bit of hysteria about oil drilling and spilling, but was interesting to hear about the low levels of pressure typically in NZ wells, where oil needs to be physically pumped out of the well - compared to the Gulf of Mexico.

Not really looking onshore in Taranaki.

Think that covered most of it.

[Balance]

They say that ignorance of the law is no defense. If it turns out that NZO shareholders really are ignorant of natural justice and that NZO is in fact liable then I reckon a greater injustice will have been done in that (as we all know) Balance was the only non-ignorant person and knew that the disaster was going to happen before it did, yet will get off scott-free having done nothing to avert the tragedy before it happened.

Ah, what's the greater crime?

Natural justice says Noggers like you throwing abuse, orchestrating odium and attempting to shut down anyone who dared to challenge, question and warn about the gross incompetence at Pike River which ultimately led to the death of those 29 miners.

http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4603-PRC-Pike-River-Coal/page274&highlight=pike+river

Shareholders were treated like mushrooms and most were happy to be treated as such - as long as others do not tell them to wake up.

Yup, those who supported the management of Pike River and abused posters questioning them - you have blood on your hands.

BRING IT ON!

[Balance]

Typical of the abuse hurled at posters :

http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4603-PRC-Pike-River-Coal/page180&highlight=pike+river

Post 2690 : "Without being smug I am pleased I am not currently a holder... I well remember a conversation I had with a cpl of retired mine managers at the Blackball Workingmens Club a year or so back.. they advised caution, spoke of fractured rock, problems with the fault line...etc etc.. I posted about that,... on this thread or the NZO thread can not recall which.... from memory it did'nt result in universal acclaim from other posters..."

Post 2691 : "Beware of conversations. If it is a fact please post it."

Anyone daring to warn about the risks at Pike River and the mismanagement attracted abuse :

tp://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4603-PRC-Pike-River-Coal/page181&highlight=pike+river



Instead :

"This is going to be a massive earner . Well done NZO/PRC.

In the meantime buy on any weakness which will be fuelled by the doubters or those that deliberately manipulate the price downwards for their own gain."

http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4603-PRC-Pike-River-Coal/page172&highlight=pike+river

[sideline]

I suppose you meant 120m depth near Oamaru.

Thanks for the info, Bob.

[dsurf]

Does anyone know the name and location of the Australian supermarket that Gordon Ward bought following his massive payout from PRC fundraising and share of management perks (salary and options). Instead of arguing blame maybe GW's part in the murder could be explained to Australians!

[spirit]

Thanks for that Bob, judging by his comments in his address the CEO is a total novice when it comes to any technical understanding so I guess from here on the official words out of HQ will necessarily mainly be in respect of the bottom line.

[arjay]

Does anyone know the name and location of the Australian supermarket that Gordon Ward bought following his massive payout from PRC fundraising and share of management perks (salary and options). Instead of arguing blame maybe GW's part in the murder could be explained to Australians!

A good idea if we want him to answer the questions directed at him. Probably a better strategy than hurling abuse fromt he sidelines anyhow.

[brucey09]

Does anyone know the name and location of the Australian supermarket that Gordon Ward bought following his massive payout from PRC fundraising and share of management perks (salary and options). Instead of arguing blame maybe GW's part in the murder could be explained to Australians!

Snr. dsurf
Sunday revealed he had recently bought a $2 million IGA supermarket, near his newly rented $1.2m home in Reedy Creek on Australia's Gold Coast.

[spirit]

New times, new challenges:

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/stop-the-matuku-well

[Sideshow Bob]

I suppose you meant 120m depth near Oamaru.

Thanks for the info, Bob.

Indeed. 120km would be a tad on the deep side.......

[dsurf]

Snr. dsurf
Sunday revealed he had recently bought a $2 million IGA supermarket, near his newly rented $1.2m home in Reedy Creek on Australia's Gold Coast.

Anyone have any bright ideas how this information can be passed on to "interested parties" so they can have a chat with him.

[digger]

Does anyone know the name and location of the Australian supermarket that Gordon Ward bought following his massive payout from PRC fundraising and share of management perks (salary and options). Instead of arguing blame maybe GW's part in the murder could be explained to Australians!

I have trouble coming to grips with the fact that Gordon Ward was never required to face the RC inquiry. He left only 6 weeks before the explosion so was in charge when most or nearly all the info structure was set up. CEO's seem to want the big pay but not the final responsibility . Next year PW has to face the court but to me it is certainly an injustice that he has to carry it all himself. This is the overriding thing about PIKE that I do not agree with.

[spirit]

In summary, are we saying that an IGA grocer was employed to run a coal mine? If so, then it's hardly surprising how it all turned out.

[Balance]

I have trouble coming to grips with the fact that Gordon Ward was never required to face the RC inquiry. He left only 6 weeks before the explosion so was in charge when most or nearly all the info structure was set up. CEO's seem to want the big pay but not the final responsibility . Next year PW has to face the court but to me it is certainly an injustice that he has to carry it all himself. This is the overriding thing about PIKE that I do not agree with.

And who is Gordon Ward?

No less than CEO of NZOG before he was seconded to manage and develop Pike.

His behavior (post disaster) gives a unique and unparalleled insight into the sort of executives NZOG has and had in its midst.

Integrity?
Moral?
Ethical?

[fabs]

Are we seeing signs to prepare the Co. for breaking it up???
The Sharks are circling, maybe stronger influence for Institutional strategies to direct the Cos. future.
Question is how will THAT effect the M & D investors???

[Balance]

Are we seeing signs to prepare the Co. for breaking it up???
The Sharks are circling, maybe stronger influence for Institutional strategies to direct the Cos. future.
Question is how will THAT effect the M & D investors???

Not just yet.

Two more dry wells, or one more bad investment, and it's time to make all the executives redundant - like TR was unceremoniously put out to pasture.

[fabs]

Not just yet.

Two more dry wells, or one more bad investment, and it's time to make all the executives redundant - like TR was unceremoniously put out to pasture.

Granted Bal. that is one way, but it will probably be more Insidious [ stealth & deception } remember the big investors { Institutions } want to come out on top.
They are down a lot and have they're way to let others take the loss.
Not hard to guess Who.

[digger]

Are we seeing signs to prepare the Co. for breaking it up???
The Sharks are circling, maybe stronger influence for Institutional strategies to direct the Cos. future.
Question is how will THAT effect the M & D investors???

What is your logic here that you are seeing?

[fabs]

What is your logic here that you are seeing?

Just go over the Demise of OTTER GOLD after T/R lost his position in the co.
And find out who the winners and losers were in the end.

[sideline]

What is your logic here that you are seeing?

That would interest me too. The only unusual thing I noticed recently was quite a few trades go through at 86c on the 7th and
a 2m trade among those. Perhaps a rumour circulating?

[neopoleII]

what i want to know..... whats up with the 2 wells?
are the drillers still on site getting paid a salary?
have they left the drill sites?
have they moved back to the first well to reduce the fracking pressure?
are the wells "suspended" for a long time or short time?
whats going on?

and please dont say the indo government cant let nzo release details again.
that is just hoodwinking......

as for independent directors at nzo....... scoof.... TR picked his crew very carefully over time.
Dallas...... dynasty...... NZO..... TR....... just like JR.

I quite like fabs interpretation of the latest release.......
in the space of a couple of weeks TR is dumped and then the directors all become independants!!
gotta laugh.

but it is the NZX ........ cowboy land
no wonder mums and dads buy rental properties

[digger]

That would interest me too. The only unusual thing I noticed recently was quite a few trades go through at 86c on the 7th and
a 2m trade among those. Perhaps a rumour circulating?

Sometime about a year or more ago I posted what I considered a reality check on the state of NZO. Then and even more so now NZO is way undervalued. No debt and 173 million in the bank and climbing. Every day it gets more ripe for picking. This I feel comes about from PIKE, Tunisia , and the last few dry wells leaving NZO with a negative vibe to investors. With the SP stuck in the 80's you would think the company owed every one and summary enough money that the only way out of it would be a QE situation.
Yes for sure I did notice the 86 cent Sp and the 2 million trade and wondered.
Still that is the market and when things get toooo cheap you can not blame larger pockets for taking advantage of the situation. Who knows maybe Fabs is on to it.

[spirit]

You have to say that NZO management have at least been trying. This is the latest well off the coast that they almost were in on, but not quite (deal preempted by existing parties):

www.epa.govt.nz/Publications/Deepwater_Taranaki_IA.pdf

[Balance]

You have to say that NZO management have at least been trying. This is the latest well off the coast that they almost were in on, but not quite (deal preempted by existing parties):

www.epa.govt.nz/Publications/Deepwater_Taranaki_IA.pdf

Trying?

Only for the last 10 years!

As for takeover, there is nothing appealing about NZOG for any predator to buy into.

If there was, would have been taken over a long time ago.

[spirit]

Note pg 30, the well is not that deep at 3000m below seabed. Also elsewhere Anadarko is talking big gas target at possibly in excess of say 3-4X Maui. So probably not what the world is wanting in respect of Global warming, planetary survival (and deep ocean exploration), but there you are.

[Balance]

https://www.nzx.com/files/attachments/185035.pdf

150,000 partly paid shares for new Chairman?

[J R Ewing]

Maybe I'm reading that wrong but it looks to me like he just bought 50,000 shares on market, he already had 11,992 and he already had 150,000 partly paid via the employee scheme.

[hilskin]

I'm no expert but that might just mean that it is time to top up?????? He certainly knows more than we do and that seems like a lot of money to just throw away unless he is feeling pretty confident about the future ?????

[spirit]

For what it’s worth, after a lot of digging around these are my numbers for an F Sand discovery at Matuku: likelihood of structure 95-100%, reservoir 95-100%, seal 95-100%, source kitchen 95-100%, migration path 75%. Therefore COS [F Sand] is 0.66-0.75. The biggest doubt is whether hydrocarbon has passed through the North Cape Shale.

[J R Ewing]

That's a pretty high % compared with the often quoted 10% chance for these wells in Taranaki. Unfortunately the 10% figure seems to be in line with our recent drilling experience. Why are you figuring Matuku so much higher?

[Balance]

I'm no expert but that might just mean that it is time to top up?????? He certainly knows more than we do and that seems like a lot of money to just throw away unless he is feeling pretty confident about the future ?????

Pile into Rakon quickly then. Directors had been buying. They must know more than we do?

[spirit]

JR - this well is surrounded by a ring of some 20 wells, each contributing varying pieces of information towards the Matuku story. That’s what my digging around was about and that’s where my numbers come from.

[hilskin]

Pile into Rakon quickly then. Directors had been buying. They must know more than we do?

:) I have put my money where my mouth is and topped up my smallish holding. Kinda fun waiting for the results to come out on the drills they have going. Yes I have been warned, thanks :) I am newish to NZO and there is a bit bad feeling with it but if they can bring some produces on board in the coming year or two , hopefully there will be some gain in the SP so earlier investors can recoup some of their loses and as investors, new and old, we can all smile :)

[J R Ewing]

Thanks Spirit. I can recall a couple of disappointments close to the Tui field though. It's certainly time we had a success!

[spirit]

Refer to Farmout summary for PEP38451. It looks like Anadarko is drilling the monster Romney.

https://www.faultseal.com/index.php/item/184-farm-out-of-taranaki-block-pep-38451/

[fabs]

If there was, would have been taken over a long time ago.[/QUOTE]

Not easy with T/R at the helm.
A.Gibbs G.Weiss etc try ed for years
getting control over Otter Gold, only succeed when he was gone, with the aid of Inst.
He learned a lot out of that.
O/G had 2 mighty gold fields in Beaconsfield Tas. & in the Tanamai N/T but no cash reserves like NZO
S/P from $1.80 down to 30 cents and look who ended up with the Lot { loot }. And there are quite a few other examples.
Everything is relative of course.
BUT

WE-HAVE-OUR-WAYS!!!!

[spirit]

From Oil and Gas:

Anadarko and Origin plan to drill the Middle East-sized Carrack-Caravel prospect, a multi-trillion cubic feet structure largely in the inner lease PEP 38264. Anadark also plans to target the Romney prospect off Taranaki that could contain between 1.1 and 2.8 billion barrels of oil or 1.7 trillion cubic feet of gas.

It is known Anadarko and Origin are seeking farminees to take a total 33% stake in the Canterbury leases, which the companies plan to effectively merge into one, keeping the best parts of both licences, including Carrack-Caravel.

Anadarko has said just getting a drillship to New Zealand waters could cost $US100 million, while the wells could each cost $US1 million per day to drill.

http://oilandgas.co.nz/News/Finally,-Anadarko-Snares-Drillship/

[arjay]

Granted Bal. that is one way, but it will probably be more Insidious [ stealth & deception } remember the big investors { Institutions } want to come out on top.
They are down a lot and have they're way to let others take the loss.
Not hard to guess Who.

A nice conspiracy theory would be that they are quietly sitting on major finds in Indonesia, so will sink our cash reserves into this seasons Taranaki drills (maybe farm into the Anadarko magic bean hunt) and then buy up the company when the SP crashes.

[Bella52]

call tv3 ask for JC producer, my bet is they are too lazy

[Bella52]

Anyone have any bright ideas how this information can be passed on to "interested parties" so they can have a chat with him.


call tv3 ask for JC producer, my bet is the are too lazy, easy to find Dow, Natrass, Radford and Ward but nobody is bothering

[Bella52]

Not just yet.

Two more dry wells, or one more bad investment, and it's time to make all the executives redundant - like TR was unceremoniously put out to pasture.

so Balance is a support of TR, who would have guess that!

[J R Ewing]

From Oil and Gas:

Anadarko and Origin plan to drill the Middle East-sized Carrack-Caravel prospect, a multi-trillion cubic feet structure largely in the inner lease PEP 38264. Anadark also plans to target the Romney prospect off Taranaki that could contain between 1.1 and 2.8 billion barrels of oil or 1.7 trillion cubic feet of gas.

It is known Anadarko and Origin are seeking farminees to take a total 33% stake in the Canterbury leases, which the companies plan to effectively merge into one, keeping the best parts of both licences, including Carrack-Caravel.

Anadarko has said just getting a drillship to New Zealand waters could cost $US100 million, while the wells could each cost $US1 million per day to drill.

http://oilandgas.co.nz/News/Finally,-Anadarko-Snares-Drillship/

At $US1 million per day, that will make it a tempting target for the local protesters. And I can't see us taking the same hard line as the Russians did!

[Billy Boy]

At $US1 million per day, that will make it a tempting target for the local protesters. And I can't see us taking the same hard line as the Russians did!
.
Pity !!
BB

[spirit]

Nobody would want a repeat of the Gulf of Mexico disaster off our coast and the time may be arriving when NZ will require higher standards of operating in deep sea drilling. So whatever the differing concerns of the protesters, I see them as providing a real service to the country if only by fueling debate and helping move those standards along.


For example, I don't know how Anadarko have structured their legal responsibilities on this well, but surely they haven't set themselves up so that they have limited liability against potential disaster. Or alternatively does the government at least require multi-billion dollar insurance cover in place. Can anyone advise?


Also I have not been impressed with some of the official responses to various concerns expressed to date. For example the response from government that all our oil wells are low pressure and need downhole pumps to flow! All rather strange as recall how Waihapa 1B belted out at 5000bopd when perforated, also didn’t one of the Kupe South wells test at 10000+bopd? What about Maui and all the big gas wells with decent GOR and hence plenty of condensate to come gushing to the surface. Also off the coast out on the western platform we know that there are big zones of significant overpressure [2000+psi] so any discovery in those zones won’t be waiting on any downhole pump. And more significantly this latest well is a real stepout into the unknown so to use any rationale of “we have low pressure oil wells in NZ” to assess potential risk is crazy talk.

[spirit]

From my Inbox - turn on your speakers before you hit the link:

http://www.angelnexus.com/o/web/52246



(http://www.angelnexus.com/o/web/52246)

[stanace]

What a waste of time, 20 minutes and then no names, and then ask for money, biggest waste of my time since I took up golf 60 years ago. Shame on you for promoting such a scam!

[Mr Tommy]

From my Inbox - turn on your speakers before you hit the link:

http://www.angelnexus.com/o/web/52246



(http://www.angelnexus.com/o/web/52246)


I guess its these 2 companies hes plugging, both on Canadian stock exch.

http://www.tagoil.com/east-coast-basin.asp


http://www.newzealandenergy.com/Operations/East-Coast-Basin/default.aspx

[skid]

From my Inbox - turn on your speakers before you hit the link:

http://www.angelnexus.com/o/web/52246



(http://www.angelnexus.com/o/web/52246)

Interesting but you have to take these guys with a grain of salt--they've been around for years with teasers like this .They review here

http://stockgumshoe.com/

[spirit]

First they have to find some decent structures and the chances of finding decent structure - without breach - within the fault ridden belt that is the East Coast Basin has to be slim at best. Then, they would have to be allowed to frac, maybe on a massive scale, and other than with the present government, what are the chances of that? Also the problem with smaller gas discoveries in the basin is the lack of infrastructure so without some big discovery and development it may all be a very slow road ahead. And then NZ having serious commitment to Kyoto and subsequent and huge gas development may never stack up. Finally you have to be careful of the American confidence when they enter a new land. Remember how Swift Energy was on the tail of a billion bbl field in South Taranaki but in the end it just wasn't there - and never could be in the particular play they were tackling.

[Balance]

Book out on Pike River Coal disaster.

Simple conclusion : "Disaster happened and 29 families lost loved ones because "the board and management of Pike River Coal for repeatedly cutting corners on safety in the interests of profit and Labour Department inspectors for failing to take action"

Observation " if they (NZOG shareholders) had any insight into how embedded their company (NZOG) is in the Pike story, they might have come to a different decision."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11158015

From NZOG's July 2010 quarterly statement, 3 months before 29 miners died :

"NZOG formed Pike River Coal in 1988,
retained a 30% shareholding when it was
floated in 2007, and has continued to
support the mine through development
and into initial production.
NZOG has contributed a total of NZ$85m in
equity to PRC. At 30 June 2010, NZOG’s
shareholding in PRC had a market value of
approximately NZ$105m. NZOG also has 17.3
million options in PRC and holds US$29m of
debt through convertible bonds. NZOG earns
an interest rate of 10% pa. on these bonds,
which are repayable by March 2012, or can
be converted to additional shares.
Pike River’s construction and commissioning
delays reflect a higher degree of project
complexity than was originally anticipated.
However, NZOG has commissioned its own
technical and management reviews and
believes that, despite a two year delay in the
Pike River mine reaching full production, the
fundamental value of the project remains
intact."

[arjay]

From my Inbox - turn on your speakers before you hit the link:

http://www.angelnexus.com/o/web/52246



(http://www.angelnexus.com/o/web/52246)


I dismissed these guys as having done dubious research after their opening where they show us a photo of Napier and describe Hastings a a port city. If their treatise about oil seeps is correct NZO should have made billions from all the drilling they did around Lake Brunner in the 80's. Doesn't oil seep also = oil generation but no containment
reservoir?

[spirit]

I think we have to make a distinction between the hype in the presentation and the work that these two explorers are doing. By my reading through the links they are doing some seriously good stuff and could do very well, but just not to the scale as inferred by the presenter. That said, perhaps it's a pity that this sort of hype may grossly distort their market and ruin what otherwise may have been two rather nice opportunities of entry.

[arjay]

I think we have to make a distinction between the hype in the presentation and the work that these two explorers are doing. By my reading through the links they are doing some seriously good stuff and could do very well, but just not to the scale as inferred by the presenter. That said, perhaps it's a pity that this sort of hype may grossly distort their market and ruin what otherwise may have been two rather nice opportunities of entry.

It will be interesting to see which local explorers might go in with them. Worth a punt, but as you say - fracking is not likely to happen here, especially in the Hawkes Bay where they are so reliant on aquafers for agriculture.

[Queenstfarmer]

Can someone throw that parrot a piece of cuttlefish bone!!

[Balance]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/west-coast/9407313/Book-Excerpt-Tragedy-at-Pike-River-Mine

"But whatever the cause of the explosion, one fact was obvious: it would not have occurred in an environment where the critical risks were properly controlled. "Ultimately, all explosions are a manifestation of the failure of an organisation's health and safety management system," the commission noted."

"In the 48 days before the explosion there had been 21 reports of methane levels reaching explosive volumes, and 27 reports of lesser, but potentially dangerous, volumes of the gas," the commission noted. "The reports of excess methane continued up to the very morning of the tragedy. The warnings were not heeded."

"Gordon Ward, who had been Pike River Coal's chief executive until two months before the disaster, remained resolutely in Australia, where he now lived. Tony Radford, who had chaired the Pike board until 2006, remained a director until June 2011, and was chair of New Zealand Oil & Gas, wrote a brief submission under a compulsion order from the Royal Commission. He was not called to give testimony."

[sideline]

I think we have to make a distinction between the hype in the presentation and the work that these two explorers are doing. By my reading through the links they are doing some seriously good stuff and could do very well, but just not to the scale as inferred by the presenter. That said, perhaps it's a pity that this sort of hype may grossly distort their market and ruin what otherwise may have been two rather nice opportunities of entry.

Grossly overhyped.
And only $499 for a subscription.
Practically a giveaway.

[Snow Leopard]

Best summary of what happened at Pike River Mine....

Your turn

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

[Balance]

Andrew Knight said NZOG has done all it can and its shareholders made the call not to pay the $3.2m compensation(less than 2% of the cash hoard).

He must sleep very well at night then, knowing NZOG contributed in so many ways (capital, management and post explosion safeguarding of investment) to Pike River.

Maybe he should get Gorddon Ward and Tony Radford to mouth the same?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9405683/A-mothers-torment-over-Pike-River

In the week leading up to Tuesday's anniversary Marianne said she had had "a couple of cries" for her son and his 28 comrades.

The raft of feelings also included anger that no individuals involved in Pike River's design, construction or management had offered to take responsibility for the avoidable disaster.

"I think that hurts me more than anything, how 29 people lost their lives and all the stuff that has gone on behind the scenes, all the stuff that shouldn't have happened, and not one person has taken responsibility saying, ‘Yeah I mucked up, I stuffed up.'

"I would be happy for someone to take a bit of the blame, to say, ‘I was there and I shouldn't have let this happen.' But no-one [has said that], everybody is blaming someone else and that hurts."

[spirit]

Schedule for Matuku completion, early January 2014:

http://www.linz.govt.nz/docs/hydro/ntm/2013/2013231.pdf

[Balance]

Best summary of what happened at Pike River Mine:

"Pike River mine, which needed to have the best of everything to succeed in its tough environment :

- the best geological knowledge,

- the best equipment,

- the most rigorous safety regime,

HAD THE WORST OF EVERYTHING.

Men were exposed on all sides by those whose job it was to protect them :

- a regulator that was too submissive and unwilling to use the powers at its disposal,

- a board that was incurious, bereft of knowledge and experience of underground coal mining, and

- unable to see the symptoms of failure,

- management that was unstable, ill-equipped for the environment and incapable of pulling together all the pieces of its own frightening picture,

- a union that was marginalized and irrelevant.

And who was the promotor of Pike River?

Who seconded management and directors to Pike River?

Who underwrote capital raising one after another even after clear evidence of gross mismanagement & incompetence manifested themselves in mishaps, delays and horrendous costs over runs?

NZOG - that's who.

[Snow Leopard]

Best summary of what happened at Pike River Mine....

Your turn

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

[Balance]

Good question posed by a poster on NBR :

"Interestingly there is no comment about the man behind the scene the main protagonist for the Pike River mine companies evolution from being a. New Zealand oil &gas companies Ltd exploration permit. to PRM's Co
take over of the development permit. To NZOG underwriting of PRM. IPO on the stock market and followed through to be, PRM Ltd's largest shareholder + secured creditor. This person in my understanding would be Tony Radford --chairman CEO +director of both PRM Ltd + NZOG. and accountant by profession but hugely involved from inception till disaster"

[arjay]

Good question posed by a poster on NBR :.....



A bloke at the pub made a similar point.

[skid]

I was thinking about starting a new thread -NZO -from now on

[blockhead]

Or rename the old thread ''Balances ramblings''

[Balance]

Or rename the old thread ''Balances ramblings''

Do you not think that 29 dead miners deserve some follow through from NZOG?

Or is it a case of trying to sweep NZOG's embedded involvement in Pike River under the coal dust?

[pierre]

I was thinking about starting a new thread -NZO -from now on

An excellent idea - let's leave this one to un-Balanced.

Einstein defined insanity as "continuing to do the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I rest my case.

[blockhead]

My personal opinion Balance is, it wouldn't hurt NZO to pay $3m to Pike as more compensation (as suggested by the Judge) but unfortunately it won't help the dead workers and it won't change the past.

Would Bernie Monk or the other families feel any better afterwards ???, I think not, they (not without cause) will always say Pike, NZO. NZ Govt and others let them down.

I lost a lot of $$$ through Pike and NZO but it is nothing compared with what the loss of one of my kids might be.

You obviously have strong feelings about where blame lies, perhaps you should look at the possibilities of a private prosecution or some such similar action.

[arjay]

My personal opinion Balance is, it wouldn't hurt NZO to pay $3m to Pike as more compensation

.

I tend to agree, although would prefer a pro-rata approach with NZO, ACC and all other Pike shareholders paying respective portions. However, that would hurt smaller PRC shareholders who have already lost their money. In the end though NZO shareholders have voted to reject the proposal so the matter should be left to rest. Nothing will bring the miners back - not money, apologies or any amount of drum beating.

[sideline]

An excellent idea - let's leave this one to un-Balanced.

Einstein defined insanity as "continuing to do the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I rest my case.

Totally agree. Un-balanced is a case for mental health professionals.
I would also suggest that the administrator of the site might want to consider if
such sort of conduct hurts the usefulness of his site if it is allowed to continue.

[Balance]

I tend to agree, although would prefer a pro-rata approach with NZO, ACC and all other Pike shareholders paying respective portions. However, that would hurt smaller PRC shareholders who have already lost their money. In the end though NZO shareholders have voted to reject the proposal so the matter should be left to rest. Nothing will bring the miners back - not money, apologies or any amount of drum beating.

It's a matter of keeping it top of mind for Noggers and the management of NZOG at this stage.

The money would help the families and yes, it will make them feel a little better.

What is glaringly clear is that most Noggers simply want to sweep the whole Pike River situation under the carpet.

Same people who tried to shut anyone down - anyone who dared question NZOG and Pike River over the gross mismanagement of the mine.

We actually have Noggers here arguing that NZOG and Pike River were not at fault - it was the fault of the mine inspectors!

That's how much they want to hide from the cold hard truth.

Well, as long as this is an open forum, this poster will be reminding you all with updates (as they become available) of what actually happened.

Fair enough?

[Queenstfarmer]

Perhaps NZO should had done absolutely nothing from the beggining balance? Perhaps as a secured creditor they shouldve just taken all their share and not given a toss about the unsecured creditors...just as the BNZ did balance? I believe the funds they injected into the mine after the first explosion was more about it still being a rescue operation before, sadly, it became a recovery. I don't believe it was about protecting their investment.

[spirit]

The well co-ordinates were presumably courtesy of the EIA:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/11/17/12/41/protest-flotilla-parks-over-drill-site

[Balance]

Perhaps NZO should had done absolutely nothing from the beggining balance? Perhaps as a secured creditor they shouldve just taken all their share and not given a toss about the unsecured creditors...just as the BNZ did balance? I believe the funds they injected into the mine after the first explosion was more about it still being a rescue operation before, sadly, it became a recovery. I don't believe it was about protecting their investment.

What does this sound to you?

Statement from NZOG following the explosion :

"NZOG Chief Executive David Salisbury says it is the right thing to do.

"NZOG has always managed its investment in PRC with the best interests of
NZOG shareholders in mind. This decision was taken because there are sound
business reasons for honouring our earlier funding commitment."

And this after NZOG placed PRC in receivership :

""These are very difficult times, especially for the families of the 29 men
who have lost their lives and for the Pike River miners facing redundancy.
Decisions on the mine's future must at least await a conclusion to the
recovery efforts, but NZOG is supportive of any intentions to eventually
reopen the mine. It is to be hoped that the inquiries now under way will
result in findings which allow this to happen in a safe manner."

[brucey09]

What does this sound to you?

Statement from NZOG following the explosion :

"NZOG Chief Executive David Salisbury says it is the right thing to do.

"NZOG has always managed its investment in PRC with the best interests of
NZOG shareholders in mind. This decision was taken because there are sound
business reasons for honouring our earlier funding commitment."

And this after NZOG placed PRC in receivership :

""These are very difficult times, especially for the families of the 29 men
who have lost their lives and for the Pike River miners facing redundancy.
Decisions on the mine's future must at least await a conclusion to the
recovery efforts, but NZOG is supportive of any intentions to eventually
reopen the mine. It is to be hoped that the inquiries now under way will
result in findings which allow this to happen in a safe manner."

Snr. Balance
No fair enought. No proof . I thinking miners cause yes?

[arjay]

hope they get too close, thereby breaking the law and get arrested promptly. we all know they cant resist the urge to do so as they make decisions based on pure emotion rather than logic. tag 'em and bag 'em!

The can declare an exclusion around the drillship when it is in place, but I wonder how it works if the protesters are in place before the drill ship arrives?

[J R Ewing]

The can declare an exclusion around the drillship when it is in place, but I wonder how it works if the protesters are in place before the drill ship arrives?

In the Hauraki Gulf a large vessel carries its own exclusion zone with it as it moves along. So I can't plonk my boat in front of a container ship and prevent it getting to port, or even make it change course - not legally anyway. The same principle should apply here one would assume. But maybe maritime law doesn't apply to second rate current and ex politicians who are trying to save the planet?

[blackcap]

hope they get too close, thereby breaking the law and get arrested promptly. we all know they cant resist the urge to do so as they make decisions based on pure emotion rather than logic. tag 'em and bag 'em!

LOL at that last little bit. ( as an aside I am lead to believe that the word "lol" in the dutch language means "to have fun" so that is quite apt)

[spirit]

The unsuccessful Waihopai prosecution may have shown that society is unlikely to convict where action is genuine and is predicated on the biggest issues such as saving the planet. This, irrespective of how one would paint the protagonist or hold whatever points of view.

[J R Ewing]

That was one jury. The next one might come to a different decision.

[skid]

Totally agree. Un-balanced is a case for mental health professionals.
I would also suggest that the administrator of the site might want to consider if
such sort of conduct hurts the usefulness of his site if it is allowed to continue.

Balanced obviously feels strongly about this,and who knows,maybe its someone in his family down there---Thats why this thread could stay active for those who want to keep on debating this--and then a new thread for those who want to move on to ''now''--no disrespect but the 2 issues are getting all muddled up with each other.

[spirit]

Some nice leads now popping up around Matuku in PEP51906:

http://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/announcements.do?by=asxCode&asxCode=oxx&timeframe=D&period=W

Karearea and Kawaki look especially interesting.

[Balance]

Balanced obviously feels strongly about this,and who knows,maybe its someone in his family down there---Thats why this thread could stay active for those who want to keep on debating this--and then a new thread for those who want to move on to ''now''--no disrespect but the 2 issues are getting all muddled up with each other.

How NZOG managed its Pike River investment, and manages its aftermath - have a direct bearing on how bad, good, ethical, moral and/or effective the management of NZOG is.

And by implication, whether NZOG is a good investment.

Trying to sweep the Pike River compensation and gross mismanagement issue under the carpet is typical of the one-eye brigade who try to shut down anyone with a contrary (to their rose tinted glasses) point of view.

The administrator know who are those who complained and actually tried to shut down those who warned about Pike River and NZOG.

Who lost in the end?

[sideline]

Snr. Balance
No fair enought. No proof . I thinking miners cause yes?

Brucey, I listened to an interview of the author of the book about Pike on National Radio. Interestingly she
mentioned as one of the failings of the company that workers were not reprimanded for smuggling 'contraband' into
the mine. It wasn't explained in the interview what that contraband was - mentioning firelighters and cigarettes could
have illuminated to the audience the possibility that some workers' transgressions could perhaps be the cause
of the explosion.

[arjay]

The unsuccessful Waihopai prosecution may have shown that society is unlikely to convict where action is genuine and is predicated on the biggest issues such as saving the planet. This, irrespective of how one would paint the protagonist or hold whatever points of view.

The economy will always remain a dependent subset of the environment, and people are finally waking up to this. Always ask what the personal motives are for those acting on each side. For the drillers it is purely profit/jobs. They're not drilling to enhance the biospere for us or other species. For the protesters, they are expressing genuinely held concerns and do not profit materially if they succeed, so really it's only the oil business that has a vested interest in stifling dissent (and our current pro-mining govt). Anyone standing up for their beliefs deserves respect (I guess that includes Balance).

[Balance]

Brucey, I listened to an interview of the author of the book about Pike on National Radio. Interestingly she
mentioned as one of the failings of the company that workers were not reprimanded for smuggling 'contraband' into
the mine. It wasn't explained in the interview what that contraband was - mentioning firelighters and cigarettes could
have illuminated to the audience the possibility that some workers' transgressions could perhaps be the cause
of the explosion.

Build up of methane to explosive levels were ignored by management many times in the days leading to the explosion.

No methane build up (if proper ventilation and methane clearance were in place), no staff in the mine when the methane was at explosive level (if proper warning system was in place + Management took safety seriously) = no deaths irrespective of where spark came from.

[spirit]

PEP51906, bigger map:

http://www.energy-pedia.com/news/new-zealand/new-156915

[spirit]

PEP51906, 710km2 of 3D seismic planned over next 2 yrs.

Refer Octanex thread.

[Balance]

A company without a social conscience and moral bearing will not prosper, especially one which preaches but does not practice :

"NZOG Representatives are required to;
• act with high standards of honesty, integrity, fairness, and equity in all
aspects of their involvement with NZOG;
• comply fully with the content and spirit of all laws and regulations which
govern the operations of NZOG, its business environment, and its
employment practices;
• not knowingly participate in illegal or unethical activity;
• actively promote compliance with laws, rules, regulations, and this code;
and
• not do anything which is likely to negatively affect NZOG’s reputation."

There were NZOG representatives on the board and management of Pike River.

[Tyro]

Nice to see someone interested in using this thread to discuss its core subject, ie exploration prospects.
PEP51906, 710km2 of 3D seismic planned over next 2 yrs.

Refer Octanex thread.

[Tyro]

Totally agree. Un-balanced is a case for mental health professionals.
I would also suggest that the administrator of the site might want to consider if such sort of conduct hurts the usefulness of his site if it is allowed to continue.

I respectfully suggest that you stop encouraging him/her by responding to him/her. Just click on his/her name, view profile, and block user. If more people did that rather than replying to him/her then he/she might eventually give up and get a life.

[croesus]

I respectfully suggest that you stop encouraging him/her by responding to him/her. Just click on his/her name, view profile, and block user. If more people did that rather than replying to him/her then he/she might eventually give up and get a life.

Tyro.... you are aptly named... and Sideline... that's the best place for you.... grow up the pair of you...

Tyro I note Balance has had 4200 plus more posts then you, whilst I have not always agreed with him..

I vehemently agree with Balance on this issue... NZOG have come out of this poorly... and as for your comment " get a life " .... how pathetically trite ..

[boysy]

How aptly finished tyro while you say balance may need to get a life nzog have no hope in hell of getting back 29 men's lives which were snuffed out by greed from shareholders, nzog being at the top of the list. Balance keep up the good work.

[arjay]

DC said he'd likely have a dinner with the relevant execs and try to sort out a deal. It would be worth doing a pro-rata agreement if not with all PRC shareholders then at leas tthe major one's. It would end up costing NZO about a million for their share and well worth it to defuse any simmering resentment about the unpaid court order.

[digger]

DC said he'd likely have a dinner with the relevant execs and try to sort out a deal. It would be worth doing a pro-rata agreement if not with all PRC shareholders then at leas tthe major one's. It would end up costing NZO about a million for their share and well worth it to defuse any simmering resentment about the unpaid court order.

What unpaid court order? The court awarded a sum of approx. 3.1 million but no one was directed to pay. The women judge got emotional and said NZO had plenty of money and so therefor should pay. Unless we all want to go back to the legal system of the middle ages that in itself is a good enough reason not to pay. As I said once before the 29 men that died here is insignificant compared to the millions that died getting us out of the middle ages and toward a day in court before any cost are awarded against anyone.
Nzog has not been asked to come to court and it would be a injustice if cost can be twisted to imply guilt without a right of reply in court.

[Balance]

Digger simply does not get the moral imperative. Well, karma says NZOG cannot prosper when the company is so morally bankrupt.

A good summary of why NZOG should pay :

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10896096

"PwC also said NZOG has been paid out $47.4 million in cash on the secured debt and a $2.56 million amount via a distribution to unsecured creditors."

[digger]

Going to be interesting if Greenbour get in to goverment with their pledge to compensate families. Would then have a mandate to seek compensation off NZO?

The interesting part would be where it all lead to. Mr employer would also then be faced with the same claim if a worker died from any cause whatsoever.Why would worker JOE be any less important if he died at work than the PIKE workers? Would anyone buying shares in a company that somehow ended up with a death be held accountable.
The country needs to go carefully here so that we do not change corperate law in a way that it rapidly becomes worst for all. And certainly be worst for NZ as the rest of the world will not be rushing down this crazy path.

[Balance]

The interesting part would be where it all lead to. Mr employer would also then be faced with the same claim if a worker died from any cause whatsoever.Why would worker JOE be any less important if he died at work than the PIKE workers? Would anyone buying shares in a company that somehow ended up with a death be held accountable.
The country needs to go carefully here so that we do not change corperate law in a way that it rapidly becomes worst for all. And certainly be worst for NZ as the rest of the world will not be rushing down this crazy path.

Pike River has been found guilty of gross negligence - resulting in the deaths of 29 miners.

NZOG had an embedded involvement in Pike River.

NZOG took the most out of the insurance claim of Pike River.

[blackcap]

The interesting part would be where it all lead to. Mr employer would also then be faced with the same claim if a worker died from any cause whatsoever.Why would worker JOE be any less important if he died at work than the PIKE workers? Would anyone buying shares in a company that somehow ended up with a death be held accountable.
The country needs to go carefully here so that we do not change corperate law in a way that it rapidly becomes worst for all. And certainly be worst for NZ as the rest of the world will not be rushing down this crazy path.

Limited liability means exactly that. There are good reasons limited liability was initiated in the first place. Without it there is less incentive to "venture" thus slowing the growth and progress of our economy. A dangerous precedent would be set if limited liability was deemed invalid.

[Balance]

Limited liability means exactly that. There are good reasons limited liability was initiated in the first place. Without it there is less incentive to "venture" thus slowing the growth and progress of our economy. A dangerous precedent would be set if limited liability was deemed invalid.

Nobody (even DC) is talking about removing limited liability.

There are two issues here :

1. Legal - Pike River is guilty of gross negligence causing deaths. Fines and reparations are imposed. But Pike's funds had all been taken out in favor of creditors, especially NZOG.

2. Moral - NZOG (and Pike's directors) are asked to pay due to its embedded involvement in Pike River.

Digger is trying to draw a long bow by insinuating that the legal judgement would make every employer responsible for any employee's death - incorrect and untrue.

Less than 1c per share for NZOG to show its moral bearing and what does it do?

It put Andrew Knight forward as a fresh face to argue NXZOG has done all it should do! Same Andrew Knight who was a director of NZOG, enjoying the perks of directorship, while the Pike River time bomb was ticking away.

[fabs]

greed - definition of greed by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus ...
www.thefreedictionary.com/greed‎
An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth:
Like THAT part ESPECIALLY WITH RESPECT TO MATERIAL WEALTH
Maybe, a Socialistic minded Judge had dipping into NZOs 150mil. Pot in mind when dishing out judgement.
Had NZO been in depth by that much would there have been the same decision?

How aptly finished tyro while you say balance may need to get a life nzog have no hope in hell of getting back 29 men's lives which were snuffed out by greed from shareholders, nzog being at the top of the list. Balance keep up the good work.


SNUFFED OUT BY GREED FROM S/H How emotional can one get,
Would guess that about 90% of S/H haven't got a clue what the motives are of management other than getting a better return or how they achieve it.
But there is also a mindset that suggests that anything above ones needs to survive to the next day, should be given away without question to the ones that whinge the most.
Have another TUI and dreams of a nanny State.

[Balance]

Tyro.... you are aptly named... and Sideline... that's the best place for you.... grow up the pair of you...

Tyro I note Balance has had 4200 plus more posts then you, whilst I have not always agreed with him..

I vehemently agree with Balance on this issue... NZOG have come out of this poorly... and as for your comment " get a life " .... how pathetically trite ..

Thx, Croesus.

Some of the postings on NZOG show the sort of people some of the Noggers*are.

Reading their posts, 29 dead miners are but one big joke to them.

[Balance]

How aptly finished tyro while you say balance may need to get a life nzog have no hope in hell of getting back 29 men's lives which were snuffed out by greed from shareholders, nzog being at the top of the list. Balance keep up the good work.


Thx, Boysy.

As they sow, they will reap and I cannot imagine anything good will come NZOG and some of the Noggers' way.

Greed drove the management of Pike River to circumvent safety requirements, and to ignore safety warnings.

Greed is now driving the directors and shareholders of NZOG to rise to the moral imperative and do something decent.

[fabs]

Reading their posts, 29 dead miners are but one big joke to them.[/QUOTE]

Just wondering, seeing you are give the impression to be knowledgeable about the law of Cause and Effect { KARMA } Balance, as an aside you are the first one that i have come across over some 40 odd years
plus, that i hope will not turn out like some of the others to be a Man of Straw.
Prey tell us what sort of actions past or present the 29 hapless Individuals had to pay with their lives for.
That way any Individuals or Groups guilty of any culpability can be en lighted as to the price of ignorance and may take appropriate action.
Yes indeed this is serious and you may very-well be in possession of the full score of the workings of Karma to be standing in Judgment as an Absolute Authority. So by all means o Mighty one carry on and re-present the Absolute.

BTW: Quite common that some people turn Grief into Greed.On the scale of Greed probably no different than any other reason.

[Balance]

Reading their posts, 29 dead miners are but one big joke to them.

Just wondering, seeing you are give the impression to be knowledgeable about the law of Cause and Effect { KARMA } Balance, as an aside you are the first one that i have come across over some 40 odd years
plus, that i hope will not turn out like some of the others to be a Man of Straw.
Prey tell us what sort of actions past or present the 29 hapless Individuals had to pay with their lives for.
That way any Individuals or Groups guilty of any culpability can be en lighted as to the price of ignorance and may take appropriate action.
Yes indeed this is serious and you may very-well be in possession of the full score of the workings of Karma to be standing in Judgment as an Absolute Authority. So by all means o Mighty one carry on and re-present the Absolute.

BTW: Quite common that some people turn Grief into Greed.On the scale of Greed probably no different than any other reason.[/QUOTE]

Fabs, live and learn.

That's how you will learn.

[fish]

The interesting part would be where it all lead to. Mr employer would also then be faced with the same claim if a worker died from any cause whatsoever.Why would worker JOE be any less important if he died at work than the PIKE workers? Would anyone buying shares in a company that somehow ended up with a death be held accountable.
The country needs to go carefully here so that we do not change corperate law in a way that it rapidly becomes worst for all. And certainly be worst for NZ as the rest of the world will not be rushing down this crazy path.
Like you I do wonder why anyone can be so stupid as to point to shareholders as being liable.
If anyone has responsibility we have to look as to where it lies.
A political party now led by cunliffe who got rid of the mines inspectorate,prc health and safety and management ,and last but not least prc directors .
It seems to me that they all may have some legal responsibility and also the means to pay the 3 million.
It is a real waste of time for balance to keep on repeating himself that nzo should pay.They have no legal responsibility and the shareholders have voted to not pay it-end of story-it will not be paid by nzo.

His time could more usefully be employed trying to prick the conscience of prc directors and former management-i dont think they would be keen on publicity!
Do they have any legal responsbility?

[Balance]

It is a real waste of time for balance to keep on repeating himself that nzo should pay.They have no legal responsibility and the shareholders have voted to not pay it-end of story-it will not be paid by nzo.



My time is well employed as is where is, but thanks for your concern.

I think you will find that NZOG will pay as the pressure builds up towards election year 2014 - David Cunliffle will not let this one rest and he has the country's media behind him. The moral imperative is too much for NZOG to hide behind legalities.

TR is gone - first scalp.

[fabs]

Fabs, live and learn.

That's how you will learn.[/QUOTE]

Fully agree and HAVE learned quite long ago and in every way successful, to avoid Speculating & Soothsaying.

[Balance]

Fabs, live and learn.

That's how you will learn.

Fully agree and HAVE learned quite long ago and in every way successful, to avoid Speculating & Soothsaying.[/QUOTE]

Believe what you may, but history tells us there is karma - good things follow good deeds, generation to generation. Bad deeds do the opposite.

Examples : Rothschild and Kennedy - two families reaping the seeds of their karma.

Another example given currency is how the Europeans, especially British, forced fed opium and weakened China and its youth over 100 years ago. Now the youth of the British and Europeans are suffering the scourge of drugs, brought in from the Golden Triangle. Karma.

Live and learn.

[fabs]

Well as i stated in an earlier post, so by your wise knowledge of how this works the 29 Individuals got there comeuppance for bad actions.
The mind boggles as to what is in store for Hitler in his next Live to atone for 70 MIL. DEATHS.

It would seem then by that system, [ The Laws of Cause & Effect " KARMA" ]that any body associated with and assumed guilty and responsible for the Pike disaster where just Instruments to Maintain Cosmic Balance and will in due course be getting Justice handed out to them.
With such an efficient and divine order, who needs man-made Laws & Justice which constantly has a habit to get it wrong also, no surprise there.

[Balance]

Well as i stated in an earlier post, so by your wise knowledge of how this works the 29 Individuals got there comeuppance for bad actions.
The mind boggles as to what is in store for Hitler in his next Live to atone for 70 MIL. DEATHS.

It would seem then by that system, [ The Laws of Cause & Effect " KARMA" ]that any body associated with and assumed guilty and responsible for the Pike disaster where just Instruments to Maintain Cosmic Balance and will in due course be getting Justice handed out to them.
With such an efficient and divine order, who needs man-made Laws & Justice which constantly has a habit to get it wrong also, no surprise there.

Spend 10 mins reading this, fabs, and you will appreciate the concept of karma and along the way, get an understanding as well of how people (other than you) think and behave.

Bad things happen to good people - that is life.

But when bad things happen to good people due the gross negligence of others, and

the others have the means to make reparations and amends but will not, that's when karma will visit upon them what they should have done.

As I wrote above, the Rothschilds and Kennedys have often been brought up as cases in points of karma at work. You may not believe it but plenty others do.

'Do unto others what you want others to do unto you.' Does that ring a bell?

[Billy Boy]

For God's sake you lot... Give it a rest. This is a NOG thread, if you want to argue PRC
then bloody well go to the PRC thread. Mr admin man ????
BB:mad ;:

[pierre]

For God's sake you lot... Give it a rest. This is a NOG thread, if you want to argue PRC
then bloody well go to the PRC thread. Mr admin man ????
BB:mad ;:

Yes - regardless of whether or not you agree with their point of view the constant repetition of that opinion by one ST member in particular is mind-numbingly tedious. That is why the other NZO thread was set-up - NZO (Only about Oil & Gas - nothing about PRC!) - however, that too has been hijacked.

It's hard to know what we or the site administrator can do about someone with OCD - other than feel sorry for him/her and have their posts set on IGNORE.

[DoctorG]

I bought some NZOG shares soon after the PRC
was it a good idea?
I think they must have a lot going for them, and figured the PRC would have caused an over reaction
in their share [price going down
They have lost of assets don't they?

[fabs]

[QUOTE=Balance;444648]

Bad things happen to good people - that is life.
= Random chance accidents == CHAOS

KARMA= Intelligent- Planning-Design-Purpose

My dear Friend it cannot be both, Chaos leads to speculation,soothsaying, paranoia & pedant ism.
Take your pick.

So as other posters have suggested lets stick to NZO as a CO.
More than 20Ys ago there was T/R & Eric Matthews and a small skeleton staff Result= NAGTORO,KUPE,TUI & Pike.
For more than 10Ys now with much much more staff on the Trough all touted with extensive experiences in there respective field and what have we got?
Let T/R deal with his Millions & Conscience and not set our self's up to pretend to do the Absolutes work.

[Balance]

[QUOTE=Balance;444648]

Bad things happen to good people - that is life.
= Random chance accidents == CHAOS

KARMA= Intelligent- Planning-Design-Purpose

My dear Friend it cannot be both, Chaos leads to speculation,soothsaying, paranoia & pedant ism.
Take your pick.

So as other posters have suggested lets stick to NZO as a CO.
More than 20Ys ago there was T/R & Eric Matthews and a small skeleton staff Result= NAGTORO,KUPE,TUI & Pike.
For more than 10Ys now with much much more staff on the Trough all touted with extensive experiences in there respective field and what have we got?
Let T/R deal with his Millions & Conscience and not set our self's up to pretend to do the Absolutes work.

Fabs, I do not walk away from a fight and Noggers chose to pick a fight with some of us a long time ago.

No one was allowed to question and interrogate the incompetency of directors and management without incurring their attempts to shut the debates and discussions down.

And they are still at it - they actually believe that it is possible to stifle debate and discussions.

I am not trying to do the Absolute's work - just a person who will continue to prick at the conscience of a bunch of cowards, to do the moral imperative of right.

There are many things in life which simply cannot be explained by science but can be explained by faith.

But religion and science can exist side by side.

Science can and has led to the enlightenment of religion and swept away a lot of the hocus pocus of religions.

Not here - Noggers think that like the Catholic Church when Galileo was around - they alone are the depository of what's right and wrong.

[Bixbite]

For God's sake you lot... Give it a rest. This is a NOG thread, if you want to argue PRC
then bloody well go to the PRC thread. Mr admin man ????
BB:mad ;:

.

Saturated …. Supersaturated …. Recrystallized .....

.

[Stu]

[QUOTE=fabs;444949]

Not here - Noggers think that like the Catholic Church when Galileo was around - they alone are the depository of what's right and wrong.

Sort of like snake oil salesman Al Gore's fairy stories about 100 percent man made global warming and how a flood will be sent for the sins of mankind?
Or that fantastic scam our scientific community ran about saturated fats which cost millions and millions of unnecessary deaths?
It's odd that you'd pick an example that's hundreds of years old, and had almost no meaningful effect on humankind, and whose main victim was a blind pensioner whose "punishment" was to be put under a very loose house arrest in a palace, and yet remained a devout catholic until his death.
Or maybe it's not so odd?
Maybe you're just one of those who likes to seize upon a tragedy and work it to your own ends. To whip up a lynch mob, completely unconcerned about anything but your own place at the head, and role as liberator, or messiah, or whatever. With nothing to add, and with no interest to build anything maybe your own sad life can only be fulfilled by tearing down things, people, whatever. Innocent, guilty, cognizant or not, it doesn't matter, but wrong place or wrong time and it's too bad pal, douse 'em in petrol and watch 'em burn. Either way, you end up the hero, just like the arsonist fireman.
And obviously always taking the populist view, you brave soul. I've not seen such a display of heroic gloating since the GreenParty stepped in to frighten local novice utility buyers into selling to offshore buyers.

But let's take the obvious hypothetical question, what if the disaster was primarily caused not by public or private sector regulators, or by the company's failures to comply with regulations, but by failures of the minors themselves to comply with regulations, either with suggestions that they were, for example, deliberately blocking sensors or failing to report problems, or continuing to work in what they knew were unsafe conditions (perhaps in order to maximize their returns).
Hypothetically, if this were the case, what action would you wish to take against the sponsors and beneficiaries of the perpetuators (ie their families) and regardless of their responsibilities under the law?

[digger]

Well put Stu. In bits and pieces it has all been said many times before but it is a good summary.
I see on to nights news that 8 forest workers are killed each year. At that rate it takes less than four years to equal the PIKE tragedy in this industry alone.. Every one of those deaths in the timber industry is just as important and deserve as much attention and financial support as the 29 pike men. Balances vindictive mission against NZO to pay up must never be allowed to win as it will change the limited liability structure of this country--a point I have made several times before.


Stu your comment that the failure of the workers to comply with regulations is spot on and probably a leading cause of the accident. Clearly they were daily on the premise and would have had first hand knowledge of the dangers. I fully expect that the forest workers would have less deaths each year if regulations were followed.

[Balance]

But let's take the obvious hypothetical question, what if the disaster was primarily caused not by public or private sector regulators, or by the company's failures to comply with regulations, but by failures of the minors themselves to comply with regulations, either with suggestions that they were, for example, deliberately blocking sensors or failing to report problems, or continuing to work in what they knew were unsafe conditions (perhaps in order to maximize their returns).
Hypothetically, if this were the case, what action would you wish to take against the sponsors and beneficiaries of the perpetuators (ie their families) and regardless of their responsibilities under the law?

Outstanding example of a Johnny-come-lately trying to play hero for the Noggers.

It is clear you have not bothered to read the damning Report of the Royal Commission.

http://pikeriver.royalcommission.govt.nz/Final-Report

It is also clear you are arrogant enough to believe the exhaustive investigative work done by the likes of Rebecca Macfie of the tragedy is of no consequence towards understanding the causes which led to the tragedy:

http://www.awapress.com/stories/storyReader$841

What is worse is that you use your ignorance to insinuate that the dead miners were actually the perpetrators of the tragedy which killed them.

Well, enough written - your posting speaks volume of the sort of person you are.

It is impossible from a moral point of view to stoop lower than to blame the victims of a tragedy for the tragedy.

PS. Digger as usual lurking in the dark shadows ready to pounce on any such insinuation to let the real perpetrators off the hook.

[Stu]

But the bodies haven't been recovered, let alone the cause.
And you've completely failed to answer the hypothetical question. Here it is again:
"what if the disaster was primarily caused not by public or private sector regulators, or by the company's failures to comply with regulations, but by failures of the minors themselves to comply with regulations, either with suggestions that they were, for example, deliberately blocking sensors or failing to report problems, or continuing to work in what they knew were unsafe conditions (perhaps in order to maximize their returns).
Hypothetically, if this were the case, what action would you wish to take against the sponsors and beneficiaries of the perpetuators (ie their families) and regardless of their responsibilities under the law?"

[spirit]

Mr Knight and the Matuku field!!:

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/business/271932/testing-may-alter-outlook

[spirit]

Mr Knight and Kaheru:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/wanganui-chronicle/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503426&objectid=11154943

[Stu]

Balance gone quiet, perhaps Balance has gone to bed? I'll use the intermission to answer some of your distractions.


Outstanding example of a Johnny-come-lately trying to play hero for the Noggers.


How can I put this, Balance, where it says "Guru" and the 4 stars, that is simply an indication of the number of posts you have placed on this website. It does not take into account the intellectual value or importance of said posts. Nor does posting earlier render the points therein more meaningful.