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TwinkleToes
09-10-2007, 11:22 PM
Seems to be strong interest in this one. Monday on TV1 business Carmel Fisher said they were going to be unhedged in foreign currencies. I think there will be a good gain down the track from the fall of the Kiwi dollar once interest rates drop off in the coming property fall initiated recession. They will have a spread of Euro, Yen, USD, Pound etc denominated stock.

Also, they have identified a large part of the target equities already.

Lastly, the listing performance of Barramundi shows a following of investors who will probably put a premium on Marlin when it lists.

whatsup
10-10-2007, 08:42 AM
Marlin, What:Where;How:When??

TwinkleToes
10-10-2007, 03:56 PM
Sorry, what do you mean Whatsup.

ratkin
10-10-2007, 05:55 PM
Have any kingfisher shareholders who pre registered recieved their packs yet? I have recieved nothing

MPC
10-10-2007, 06:03 PM
I recieved nothing even though I asked for info through Fisher website. Rang ABN Amro and prospectus fastposted to me today. I will be in for a few even if just to hold the warrants. Will be interesting....
Cheers,
MPC

a bowden
10-10-2007, 06:47 PM
Yes I have recieved mine yesterday. Im with ASB Securities

TwinkleToes
10-10-2007, 08:50 PM
Hey, guys receive is not recieve.

Grimy
10-10-2007, 09:37 PM
Direct Broking said they were expecting to get their packs on Monday, so hoping to see mine tomorrow. They said they also had it on their website (although I haven't looked).

777
10-10-2007, 09:51 PM
https://www.directbroking.co.nz/DirectTrade/dynamic/getfile.aspx?id=89


Gives the Investment Statement

QOH
15-10-2007, 07:32 AM
I have a firm allocation but now not sure if I want them. Seems they will be paying top dollars for anything they buy at the moment. I don't see it being the success Barramundi was to begin with. Would be interested in other's thoughts.

strayda
15-10-2007, 07:45 AM
I wonder too...

How much good buying is there for large, quality companies..?

On the plus side, there could be demand post IPO... and with the NZ$
being so strong, there should be additional currency returns in the
medium term?

Winston001
15-10-2007, 08:50 AM
I'm a fan of Fisher Funds but the only reason I can see to pick up Marlin is because there might be a small stag at listing. Investing in Australia is one thing, taking on competing fund managers globally (which everyone is doing already) is quite another.

Furthermore they are likely to have to buy in at fairly high prices and if this is the third stage of a bull market, then I'd rather watch from the sideline.

From memory both Barramundi and certainly Kingfish traded under issue price for quite a while.

The $NZ is still trending up and there is a view that it will reach US .85c for a while.

QOH
15-10-2007, 09:41 AM
I don't remember when Kingfisher listed but Barramundi was successful. Between the heads and the warrants I did quite well. I just have the same feeling about this one as I had about PRC. Keep changing my mind.

TwinkleToes
16-10-2007, 04:21 AM
This one is a good currency play and additionally it is investing in companies which are high growth and therefore somewhat separated from the normal beta rules of the market. Their technique is to buy stakes in few companies but get really close to the company. It is a successful formula over the medium term. There are also far more stocks to choose from outside of Australasia.

The warrants should ensure a profitable initial listing.

ratkin
16-10-2007, 05:21 AM
Its not so easy to get really close to the company when it on another continent.
In NZ Fisher is the biggest fish in the pond, overseas they will be a tiddler.

Having said that it will provide some diversification. Trouble is they are entering the market at a very risky time , small companies will be the first to be hit by any downturn

macduffy
16-10-2007, 03:57 PM
Carmel Fisher talks about their modus operandi for Marlin in latest newsletter on their website.

QOH
25-10-2007, 08:33 AM
Is anyone buying into it? Can't see it being over subscribed.

tim23
25-10-2007, 05:23 PM
I had a look but decided not to proceed.

macduffy
25-10-2007, 06:04 PM
I'm a fan of Fishers but can't see that they have any particular expertise here, so I'm out.

Toulouse - Luzern
29-10-2007, 08:44 PM
I expected to be in this one but in the end was not.
The prospectus was a bit light on for me.
Sub prime world markets roller coasters, the downward drift of NZX and FFM NZ were negatives compared with opportunities in ASX (eg FFM OZ) and direct investment.

soltrader
31-10-2007, 06:02 PM
From the NZ Herald:

2:07PM Wednesday October 31, 2007

Marlin Global's $70 million initial public offering has been oversubscribed by $33 million.

Marlin, a listed investment company managed by Fisher Funds, has elected not to scale investors.

The fund was established to invest in smaller growth companies outside New Zealand and Australia.

Managing director of Fisher Funds, Carmel Fisher, said Marlin would focus on just 30 to 40 international growth stories.

She said the oversubscription showed clear support "for our long term investment approach, our focus on picking individual stocks, and the appealing nature of growth opportunities that lie outside our local markets".

Investors in the IPO will receive one Marlin warrant for every two Marlin shares, having paid $1 per share.

Fisher Funds also manages Kingfish, a fund for New Zealand shares, and Barramundi , for Australian shares, as well as non-listed managed funds.

It currently manages around $680m in New Zealand funds and $430m in Australian funds.

Marlin shares and warrants are expected to be listed on the NZSX on November 1.

- NZPA

pedro.nz
31-10-2007, 06:04 PM
Fisher Funds has raised $103 million for its soon-to-be listed international share fund Marlin.
The company sought $70 million in its IPO but had the option to accept a further $70 million in oversubscriptions.
Fisher Funds managing director Carmel Fisher says the offer won't be scaled. Its earlier IPO, Barramundi was scaled.
Marlin will invest in smaller growth companies from around the world (not based or listed in New Zealand or Australia). It aims to hold between 30 and 40 stocks. Investors in the IPO will receive one Marlin warrant for every two Marlin shares.
The shares and warrants are expected to be listed on the NZSX tomorrow.

Balance
31-10-2007, 07:20 PM
Those who followed Fisher into Australia are well behind the performance of that market. Market is up 25% (med cap) and currency movement makes that 31% in NZ$ terms.

Barramundi is only up 2% plus 12.2% if you include the warrant.

Tells the story, doesn't it?

whatsup
31-10-2007, 09:27 PM
Whats the code ofthe heads and warrants?

TwinkleToes
31-10-2007, 09:32 PM
MLN and MLNWA.

Long term investor.

Balance
01-11-2007, 06:35 AM
Marlin will underperform the markets just as Barramundi (already 17% behind the ASX in one year). Fisher Funds have no competitive advantage in international markets just as in ASX.

777
01-11-2007, 07:08 AM
Quote by Balance...

"Those who followed Fisher into Australia are well behind the performance of that market. Market is up 25% (med cap) and currency movement makes that 31% in NZ$ terms.

Barramundi is only up 2% plus 12.2% if you include the warrant.

Tells the story, doesn't it?"



What value are you using for performance?

The NTA is 1.2295 as at the 24/10/07. Vastly different from what the the market wishes to pay for them, 1.03.

Balance
01-11-2007, 07:56 AM
Quote by Balance...

"Those who followed Fisher into Australia are well behind the performance of that market. Market is up 25% (med cap) and currency movement makes that 31% in NZ$ terms.

Barramundi is only up 2% plus 12.2% if you include the warrant.

Tells the story, doesn't it?"



What value are you using for performance?

The NTA is 1.2295 as at the 24/10/07. Vastly different from what the the market wishes to pay for them, 1.03.

Not really. Fully diluted NTA is $1.15 and that's the number you have to use. The market is pretty good, isn't it?

Whichever way you cut it, 17% underperformance in a year is staggering bad.

TwinkleToes
01-11-2007, 10:53 AM
Heads at 91, warrants at 23 = 102.5 equivalent. Not great but would expect it to slowly move up from here. 3 year options have significant time value and there is about 99 cents of cash per head and option.

winner69
01-11-2007, 01:24 PM
.....Given a choice between Merlin at a premium or the aussie ones at a discount i know which i would invest in

..... bur MERLIN might be able to weave some magic ..... some real magic at that

baxter
01-11-2007, 02:24 PM
The advantage over the Aussie ones may be that Marlin will be a pie..The under performance of Barrimundi compared with the index may be that the Index funds are commodity based and most would include the big companies. Fishers are small company long term investors. Again with Barrimundi the advantage is that it is a PIE exempt from the Foreign Investor limitations.
(Hold all Fisher products also AFI now outperforming in Aussie)

whatsup
01-11-2007, 05:43 PM
This has been a classic case of "When the DUCKS are quacking, feed them"!!! all the cash taken off punters for what, just like the listing/launching of Platinum Capital in the 90's took a long time before the heads & the warrants regained the issue price IMHO..

Balance
01-11-2007, 06:57 PM
Look at KFL in NZ - ran out of puff. But Fisher was clever enough to use that to launch BRM.

BRM has underperformed (and it is not the ASX only but the mid-cap index as well) by 17%. BRM has gone from trading at a premium to trading at a discount.

Now Marlin has opened with a whimper and those playing the warrants are keeping the overall situation at level. But against a head share trading at 90 cents.

Underperformance and so typical of NZ investors.

whatsup
05-11-2007, 04:02 PM
Options coming off a little still over priced dispited the long term exercise date

Balance
05-11-2007, 06:00 PM
Trading lower. Now why would people put money into a managed fund (yes, managed fund) and sell out a few days later at a loss?

Maybe waking up to the fact that KFL is underperforming badly. BRM is performing poorly. And Marlin is going deep sea diving?

moolooman
16-11-2007, 12:35 PM
Anyone know when we can expect to hear about how they're spending the money & on what?

living2
16-11-2007, 04:14 PM
I go along with what you say RATKIN though topped up with BRWA instead.A bit more of the known at this stage to diversify away from the NZ market.NZ market investment options are becoming rather limited.

ratkin
16-11-2007, 09:06 PM
Spent all day yesterday trying to find a new zealand company to invest in (that didnt already hold). Couldnt find anything , gave up and bought marlin instead

strayda
17-11-2007, 06:25 AM
I'm not sure about Marlin, but DO agree that there are very slim pickings on NZX right now. I don't see anything that I'd think is undervalued..

macduffy
17-11-2007, 06:38 AM
I'm not sure about Marlin, but DO agree that there are very slim pickings on NZX right now. I don't see anything that I'd think is undervalued..

I'm waiting for PPL to bottom out.

Balance
26-11-2007, 05:07 PM
80 cents now.

So what does Fisher Fund bring to international investing?

Barramundi is now 93 cents. If Australia is hard for them, how can intternational work for them?

Balance
26-11-2007, 06:35 PM
Remember to price in the generous management fees as a discount to NAV. Plus poor performance means the discount widens.

Remember BIL? It traded forever at a 10% to 25% discount, save when the Singaporeans were dumb enough to pay a premium. And boyo, did they regret it or what.

KFL is going backwards. BRM is struggling. Where is Fisher Fund competitive advantage in the international markets?

Yossarian
26-11-2007, 06:54 PM
don't forget the options...

Balance
26-11-2007, 08:32 PM
Advantageous prices? You mean like buying TUA at $2.40, then $3.20 and then, $4.00? Then selling out at $2.10?

Or Rakon? Buying at ever higher prices and now, unable to buy or even sell?

Or PPL?

LOL ... you have a lot to learn about managed funds, it seems?

ratkin
26-11-2007, 09:17 PM
You are very biased , should of taken the name unbalanced !!

Hommel
27-11-2007, 08:34 AM
I went to a Fisher Funds roadshow recently and their track record is very good. BUT they have not had to perform in a bear market yet. It will be interesting to see how they go over the next 3 to 5 years.

Discl. Have a few Marlin Fund.

whatsup
27-11-2007, 09:32 AM
Right on Hommel , any fool (except me ) can make money in a rising market ,we have just had the best 8 years of growth ever so its no wonder that the Fisher funds are cock a hoop but they havent been too smart in picking companies that have a fool proof business plan , mostly didnt allow for a weakening U S $

ratkin
27-11-2007, 12:17 PM
You cant really blame Fisher for failing to see the dollars sustained rise.
There barely a company in the southern hemisphere that saw the US dollar becoming so weak for so long.
Most the aussie listed funds are in exactly the same boat

manxman
27-11-2007, 12:53 PM
There barely a company in the southern hemisphere that saw the US dollar becoming so weak for so long.
McDunk has been bearish on the $US for a long time. He says it's ruined. You can't spend money the way they are in Iraq and not have consequences.
The continued strength of the New Zealand dollar is harder to explain. Good government by Helen perhaps...:D... (Exits stage left in hail of rotten fruit)

upside_umop
27-11-2007, 01:40 PM
You think the USD is stuffed? Think about the NZD if thats the case about spending.

US has deficits of around 6% of GDP, we have around 9%...think about it.

redzone
27-11-2007, 01:52 PM
dead right upside....when the penny drops watch out below.....

baxter
27-11-2007, 02:18 PM
I went to a Fisher Funds roadshow recently and their track record is very good. BUT they have not had to perform in a bear market yet. It will be interesting to see how they go over the next 3 to 5 years.

Discl. Have a few Marlin Fund.
__________________
Hommel

.............Not quite right Hommel...The NZ Growth Fund was started around 1998. Almost from the start Carmel's was one of the very few funds to make a profit and was frequently rated the top fund. She started that fund with 15 mill invested by her former employers a large funds management company. My main reservation is that the growth of her organisation may lessen her personal influence and flexibility in the actual hands on part of the business. I invested in 1998 and have since invested in each of her enterprises.

Hommel
27-11-2007, 03:28 PM
Well done Baxter - I wish I had have done the same! I reckon I would have been at least 100k better off than what I am now by my "back of the envelope" calcs.

Balance
27-11-2007, 05:55 PM
LOL ... the numbers speak for themselves. MLN, BRM and KFL.

winner69
04-12-2007, 07:37 PM
Market turned really sour on marlin today ..... 78 cents for a $1.00 invested not that long ago ..... even with the warrants not good

Must have started investing some of that dosh for the NAV to go down .... didn't take too long did it

Balance
04-12-2007, 08:05 PM
What is Fishers' competitive advantage investing beyond NZ? None, it seems.

Barramundi shows that they cannot even make it in Australia. BRM is trading at 90 cents compared to the Australian market which has gone up over 20% over the same period. And investors are paying plenty of fees for Fishers to turn $1.00 into 90 cents in BRM.

Marlin at 79 cents? The market is saying -'you ain't seen nothing yet. 50 cents is where it will go when they actually start investing.'

Balance
04-12-2007, 08:51 PM
Have you really checked out Fishers' track record? A fund she ran in the 90s dropped over 50% in 1 year.

Yes, 50% (repeat - it's not a misprint).

shasta
04-12-2007, 08:57 PM
Have you really checked out Fishers' track record? A fund she ran in the 90s dropped over 50% in 1 year.

Yes, 50% (repeat - it's not a misprint).

Your going on like a broken record again Balance...

If you held Marlin, you could be worried, but you don't do you?

Why don't you wait & see how they perform, before knocking them?

What the SP does meantime is largely irrelevant, only results count!

Balance
05-12-2007, 06:35 AM
Marlin will underperform the markets just as Barramundi (already 17% behind the ASX in one year). Fisher Funds have no competitive advantage in international markets just as in ASX.

That's the warning I gave prior to the IPO. Investors could have save themselves some $$$, eh Shasta.

No need to wait and see how they perform - Marlin is a dog, not a fish.

macduffy
05-12-2007, 07:01 AM
I'm a fan of Fishers but can't see that they have any particular expertise here, so I'm out.

Particular expertise or not, I might be interested if the SP goes much lower than 77c.

Footsie
05-12-2007, 08:37 PM
It was a mistake to list the fund

ratkin
06-12-2007, 04:48 AM
The mistake isnt real. Its all about perception.

Fact is this fund has more potential than the other two , the high kiwi dollar combined with weaker world markets means stocks will be bought at more realistic prices than was the case with Barramundi.

Barramundi listed at the top of the market. This had the advantage that everyone wanted to buy them (irrational) so the price was high (overvalued) but made Fisher look good.

Marlin on the other hand currently makes Fisher look bad , but is undervalued (nobody wants a bargain - irrational )

The big mistake is the thought process of the average investor who would rather buy something expensive and popular than somnething cheap and unloved

Balance
06-12-2007, 06:51 AM
The mistake isnt real. Its all about perception.

Fact is this fund has more potential than the other two , the high kiwi dollar combined with weaker world markets means stocks will be bought at more realistic prices than was the case with Barramundi.

Barramundi listed at the top of the market. This had the advantage that everyone wanted to buy them (irrational) so the price was high (overvalued) but made Fisher look good.

Marlin on the other hand currently makes Fisher look bad , but is undervalued (nobody wants a bargain - irrational )

The big mistake is the thought process of the average investor who would rather buy something expensive and popular than somnething cheap and unloved

The perception is reality.

BRM did not list at the top of the market. BRM has however invested at the top in some stocks and they are now hurting something horrible. Notably Credit corp. The Australian market has powered on since October 2006 when BRM listed.

Marlin has more potential because of weaker markets and high NZ$? High NZ$ has been around for the last 3 years. Weaker markets? Not really as offshore markets have been powering to new highs. So Marlin will be investing near the top?

Fact is that Fisher funds have no expertise or competitive edge offshore.

It's a dog, not a fish.

moolooman
09-12-2007, 07:41 AM
How can a stock that for all we know hasn't made an investment yet other than have it collecting interest in a bank be worth 20% less than it was when listed? How on earth could perception be reality if we don't have the facts about how & where the money is invested. Perception isn't factual.

macduffy
09-12-2007, 07:54 AM
What we're seeing is the dumping of stock by investors who hoped to stag the share for a profit, into a market which has few buyers at the moment.
I'm still watching and waiting.

Balance
09-12-2007, 08:18 AM
How can a stock that for all we know hasn't made an investment yet other than have it collecting interest in a bank be worth 20% less than it was when listed? How on earth could perception be reality if we don't have the facts about how & where the money is invested. Perception isn't factual.

Markets price perceptions into share prices. That's why you have stocks on higher multiples than others - because the markets like the management, products, strategy etc.

BRM initially listed at a premium because the markets thought that Fisher Fund will perform well in Australia. It hasn't and in fact, BRM has severely underperformed the Australian market. Now BRM is priced at a discount.

Marlin has been heading lower because the market now has low confidence in Fisher Funds' ability to swim in the offshore markets. It's a little minnow in a sea of sharks.

The perception is now reality - how confident are you now that Marlin can perform beyond Australasia if it cannot do well in Australia? If you are confident, mortgage your house and put the money into Marlin. You are getting it at a nice discount. The discount represents the market's perception that Fisher Funds will perform badly. That's what you are buying.

If you are right, the discount will move up to a premium - you get a double upside of great performance from Marlin plus a closing of the gap between market price and NAV.

Question - what is Marlin's competitive edge in the offshore markets?

winner69
09-12-2007, 09:00 AM
How can a stock that for all we know hasn't made an investment yet other than have it collecting interest in a bank ......

But last anouncement said 'unaudited net asset value per ordinary share excluding performance fees as at 4 December 2007 was $0.9723'

You would have to think that from this they have made some (losing?) investments .... or is the 2.8% thats missing the first years management fee?

winner69
09-12-2007, 09:12 AM
See that all three of Carmels funds are trading at about 20% below NPV ..... whatever punters are perceiving seems to be pretty consistent .. with no particular fund being picked on for special attention

bear
09-12-2007, 05:48 PM
See that all three of Carmels funds are trading at about 20% below NPV ..... whatever punters are perceiving seems to be pretty consistent .. with no particular fund being picked on for special attention

generally across the board these types of listed funds tend to trade at a discount sometimes as much as 30% or more. There have been one or two exceptions i can think of such as Platinum Capital (PMC) but this is an exception rather than the norm.

Was always going to settle below issue value.

Whether it is good value now depends on the skills of the investment team :D

Bear
disc - nil

whatsup
10-12-2007, 07:27 AM
Bear, When Platinum Cap was listed it did so at a discount of some big % but as time went on it regained its issue price and then rose as its performance warranted it.

bear
10-12-2007, 07:31 AM
Bear, When Platinum Cap was listed it did so at a discount of some big % but as time went on it regained its issue price and then rose as its performance warranted it.

Platinum cap has been the only listed investment fund (rather than GPG type investor) i've owned... was pleased when the premium eventuated

have not held PMC for a while now

ratkin
18-12-2007, 04:14 PM
Looks like Marlin have been busy , have invested in thirteen companies so far and will of been able to take advantage of recent market weakness and the high NZ dollar.
Good opportunity to diversify away from local assets.
Have topped up again at 0.79

O2 Micro has the largest pool of specialist engineers in China and makes
semi-conductors for LCD TVs and laptops for manufacturers such as Sony, Apple
and HP. Gameloft has made more than 200 video games for mobile phones and
other electronic devices.

"Hansens' Monster energy drink is second only to Red Bull in the US with a
25% market share. Hansens has been selling energy drinks in the US for
decades and has recently announced plans to launch globally.

"Jamba Juice is the largest smoothie chain in the US with more than 600
American stores and, like other category leaders Starbucks and Subway, has
the opportunity to become a global brand."

Other companies currently in the Marlin Global portfolio are:

Home Inns (China) - the No. 1 economy hotel chain in China;
Hongguo (China) - China's No. 2 brand fashion shoe retailer;
Wirecard (Germany) - a payment processor for internet transactions;
City Telecom (Hong Kong) - a leading provider of high speed broadband on the
island;
Icon PLC (Ireland) - a healthcare company specialising in managing clinical
trials;
Raffles Education (Singapore) - Asia's leading for-profit education provider;

Conceptus (United States) - A new permanent birth control system for women;
Ultimate Software (United States) - A leading payroll, talent management and
HR provider for small to medium businesses;
Equinix (United States) - a global internet infrastructure company.

Balance
26-01-2008, 11:38 AM
Looking very cheap - a fall of 30% after only 3 months! Or is it because the market has woken up to the fact that Fisher Fund has no competitive advantage investing in the international markets?

A kingfisher trying to catch a marlin? Good luck!!!!!!

Toddy
26-01-2008, 05:00 PM
Looking very cheap - a fall of 30% after only 3 months! Or is it because the market has woken up to the fact that Fisher Fund has no competitive advantage investing in the international markets?

A kingfisher trying to catch a marlin? Good luck!!!!!!

I think that Fisher has bitten off more than they can chew with this one. Investing your money with a couple of x-pat kiwi's on the international market must carry some sort of additional risk that should be priced in via a massive discount.

Balance
08-03-2008, 07:44 PM
Particular expertise or not, I might be interested if the SP goes much lower than 77c.

You loading up? Must be cheap as?

macduffy
09-03-2008, 07:14 AM
No, havn't bought any as yet.
I try to remember my hard learnt lesson of not to buy a share while its in a downtrend!
I still consider that Fishers don't have any particular expertise in international markets - see my post of 25/10/2007 - but that's not to say that their assets in this fund may not be good value at some stage.

:)

Balance
09-03-2008, 11:37 AM
No, havn't bought any as yet.
I try to remember my hard learnt lesson of not to buy a share while its in a downtrend!
I still consider that Fishers don't have any particular expertise in international markets - see my post of 25/10/2007 - but that's not to say that their assets in this fund may not be good value at some stage.

:)

Contradicting yourself, I think. If Fishers don't have any particular expertise in international markets, then how can the assets in the fund represent good value at some stage?

Market has spoken loud and clear - Fishers reckon NAV was 92.45 cents on 4 March but sp is 64 cents so market is saying you have a long way to fall with your investment strategy.

Pity those who got sucked in by all the hype created by slick marketing - BRM, KFL and MLN.

ratkin
07-07-2009, 06:23 PM
Seen todays announcement?

Seems silly really, if the shareholder in question wanted to buy into a fund why didnt he do so in the first place?

macduffy
07-07-2009, 06:52 PM
Just picking up on the comment that I made back in March, and Balance's remark that I was contradicting myself.

I don't see any contradiction.
I was saying that I didn't think that Fishers had any particular expertise in picking international stocks. However, the SP had reached such a heavy discount to Net Assets that there was a good chance that that discount would reduce in time and produce an improvement in the SP. This fluctuation in the level of discount happens with all managed funds, not just specifically Marlin and is more a function of the "mood" of the market. In fact, under some circumstances the discount might turn into a premium, not that I see this happening in the near future.

I'm still not attracted to Marlin and won't be buying.

Balance
07-07-2009, 07:04 PM
Most telling comment from Marlin today is that if it is unlisted, it will lose protection of NZX listing rules!

God helps those who are already in Fishers' unlisted trusts!!!!!!!!

Steve
20-07-2009, 06:44 PM
Most telling comment from Marlin today is that if it is unlisted, it will lose protection of NZX listing rules!

God helps those who are already in Fishers' unlisted trusts!!!!!!!!

Obviously such a stupid comment wasn't vetted by a PR company! You would like to think that their governance standard wasn't so weak that their standards would slip just because they didn't have to comply with the NZX listing rules...

OldRider
31-07-2009, 07:01 AM
http://www.asx.com.au/products/pdf/lmi/ ... 200906.pdf

Discovered this report the other day, and noticed the large variations between prices and NAV's in a number of shares.
PMC @ 13% over nav
TGG @ 25% under nav for example.

MLN @ about 20% under NAV is within the variation shown by similar ASX listed funds.

I have the thought that good growth potential exists in many of these LIC's , at a lower risk than other choices, so have been collecting a few on lower price days, growth over the last month or two has been encouraging, amd hopefully will continue.

OldRider
31-07-2009, 07:15 AM
http://www.asx.com.au/products/pdf/lmi/lic_premiums_discounts_to_nta_200906.pdf

link in previous post didn't seem to copy properly so trying again.

COLIN
31-07-2009, 09:08 AM
http://www.asx.com.au/products/pdf/lmi/ ... 200906.pdf

Discovered this report the other day, and noticed the large variations between prices and NAV's in a number of shares.
PMC @ 13% over nav
TGG @ 25% under nav for example.

MLN @ about 20% under NAV is within the variation shown by similar ASX listed funds.

I have the thought that good growth potential exists in many of these LIC's , at a lower risk than other choices, so have been collecting a few on lower price days, growth over the last month or two has been encouraging, amd hopefully will continue.

OR: I reckon that the Marlin warrants (MLNWA) are the way to go, in this uptrending market. The exercise date is not until October 2010 and you can still get them for around 6c. I bought 100k a couple of months back.
(Latest nta for MLN was $1.04 - before last night's offshore upsurge.)

OldRider
31-07-2009, 10:19 AM
Colin:
The warrants are an idea. I look after ASX & NZX shares myself, but use investment companies for the foreign portion of our investments.

It has been a point of interest for me how, for example RCP in UK, and others are similar, have maintained their share prices, RCP today has NAV 944p share price 963.5p.

Yet MLN locally, and a number on ASX have SP well below NAV.

INE for example at half NAV and TGG as mentioned before @ 25% discount, AGF @ 20% lower than NAV, with few shares selling over NAV.

I realise size, liquidity and dividend payments, need to be taken into account, but can't help having the view that these Australasian companies are well oversold. I have bitten the bullet and reduced amounts in British Trusts and reinvested in ASX International Lic's.

Pondering at the moment whether to go further in the direction. Have any thoughts?

COLIN
31-07-2009, 10:38 AM
Colin:
The warrants are an idea. I look after ASX & NZX shares myself, but use investment companies for the foreign portion of our investments.

It has been a point of interest for me how, for example RCP in UK, and others are similar, have maintained their share prices, RCP today has NAV 944p share price 963.5p.

Yet MLN locally, and a number on ASX have SP well below NAV.

INE for example at half NAV and TGG as mentioned before @ 25% discount, AGF @ 20% lower than NAV, with few shares selling over NAV.

I realise size, liquidity and dividend payments, need to be taken into account, but can't help having the view that these Australasian companies are well oversold. I have bitten the bullet and reduced amounts in British Trusts and reinvested in ASX International Lic's.

Pondering at the moment whether to go further in the direction. Have any thoughts?
OR: Interested to see you mention INE. I had been seeking some exposure to the India growth story and decided that the most practical way was to buy into INE which I did, a couple of weeks ago, at 52c,and within a few days they had announced a 1:3 renouncable rights issue at 40c. Consequently the share price is now 20% above what I paid for them.

My view as regards these portfolio investment entities which are selling at significant discounts, is that the discount is much more likely to narrow than to widen, particularly in a rising market, so you stand to gain on both scores. As the young ones say these days, "its a no-brainer!".

Like you, I prefer to invest directly in the NZ & Aus markets, but generally use fund managers for other markets where it is not practicable to gain sufficient knowledge oneself of all the opportunities and pitfalls and methods of operation. The Bombay Stock Exchange could be a scary place!

One has to carefully research and select the right fund manager, of course.

ratkin
05-03-2010, 12:33 PM
Marlin having much more luck than kingfisher or barramndi.
Actually seems to have invested in some decent companies, another one of them is subject to takeover
at a whopping 50% above current shareprice.

Voltaire
05-03-2010, 04:37 PM
Marlin having much more luck than kingfisher or barramndi.
Actually seems to have invested in some decent companies, another one of them is subject to takeover
at a whopping 50% above current shareprice.

True, though there's a bit of hoopla involved in their press release - it's a whopping 50% above the shareprice for a company that made up less than 1% of the Marlin portfolio (as at portfolio summary date of 31/12/09 - listed in the recent interim report).

Disc. hold MLNWA

p2r
05-03-2010, 10:25 PM
From 53c to 93 is OK and it is the NZ dollar weakening will help. Buy back occuring. NTV was up a couple of c last week to $1.15.
Yes I think the stock picking is OK and the WAs may be worth cashing in Oct. Worth it at 3 c anyway.

They certainly struggled at the start dropping to 70c ntv in 2008 but they can move up fast.

OldRider
16-09-2010, 01:16 PM
I see 37,780 warrants were converted into shares today @ 1.00 each,
I wonder why this was done when the shares could be bought at
92 cents each on market and saved $3,000.00 ?

Must be something I don't know !

PLYNCH
28-05-2012, 11:05 AM
Anyone got any info or opinions why the manager is on his way.

percy
28-05-2012, 12:08 PM
Anyone got any info or opinions why the manager is on his way.

He wants to return to USA,while Fisher Funds want the manager to live/be based here.

PLYNCH
10-08-2012, 11:02 AM
Another one out the door.

"James Miller retires from Board of Marlin Global"

Lizard
10-08-2012, 11:13 AM
I still can't get over who in their right mind would invest in a company called "Fook Woo". :ohmy:

Still, only about another 1cps left to wipe off NAV from that mistake...

Anna Naum
10-08-2012, 12:04 PM
There goes the market knowledge. Board a bit weak now.

BIRMANBOY
10-08-2012, 02:59 PM
Reminds me of an occasion a few years back when we were at a trade show in Hong Kong and ran into a Company with a similar name..."Fook Yue" was its chosen, and probably, valued name. I often wondered how its english speaking customers would react when they phoned and heard the greeting...Good Morning...Fook Yue.
I still can't get over who in their right mind would invest in a company called "Fook Woo". :ohmy:

Still, only about another 1cps left to wipe off NAV from that mistake...

Billy Boy
12-08-2012, 11:20 AM
I still can't get over who in their right mind would invest in a company called "Fook Woo". :ohmy:
..

Lost in translation !! ??
Nationial Radio used a reporter who's name was/is Marty DOO DAH
In Fijian "Doo Dah" means to have a crap. !! Maybe thats why Fijians
have such a large smile when talking with us.
BB

Balance
17-08-2012, 01:20 PM
A Carmel Fisher special - floated at the top of the market.

Investors who bought into the hype (heaps of PR and media coverage) lose their shirts but Carmel continues to take her fees every year.

She is crying into her glass of champagne?

winner69
17-08-2012, 05:40 PM
“I saw it with my eyes, I heard it with my ears, and a bit of it
fell on my head.” Like Chicken Little said in the fairy tale, it
feels like the sky is falling down

Geez getting a bit theatrical in their reports

And Carmel has another glass of champagne eh Balance

Lizard
17-08-2012, 06:46 PM
Okay, so admittedly, I bought a few MLN recently because I was looking for some good international exposure and the discount to NAV plus PIE status seemed like a head start...

... but reading the July update... were we in the same year?

I thought July was a real "make hay" month!

winner69
17-08-2012, 06:52 PM
I thought July was a real "make hay" month!

was for carmel

Joshuatree
19-09-2012, 09:16 PM
The D/Y on Marlin and Baramundi look Fab, how do they do it?. OK found it They're committed to paying 2% quarterly and if necessary will liquidate part of its capital base and return it to shareholders tax free. So how does the discount NTA to S/P remain if theyre doing that?

winner69
20-09-2012, 05:15 AM
The D/Y on Marlin and Baramundi look Fab, how do they do it?. OK found it They're committed to paying 2% quarterly and if necessary will liquidate part of its capital base and return it to shareholders tax free. So how does the discount NTA to S/P remain if theyre doing that?

Wondering when you would catch on .... not a real divie is it .... its called seduction

Implications once discussed on this or soome other thread

Joshuatree
20-09-2012, 07:08 AM
Thanks for wondering all day about me:). Amazingly its never been mentioned on this thread.Def seductive div alright.

Balance
20-09-2012, 07:56 AM
Wondering when you would catch on .... not a real divie is it .... its called seduction

Implications once discussed on this or soome other thread

Last NTA update - 82.81 cps on 14 Sep.
Sp was 69 cents = 17% discount.

Market is not dumb and is telling you something profound.

The decent thing to do is wind this fund up and return the full 82.81 cents back to unit holders but she will not do that and there is nothing to compel her to do that.

Just a lot of small time retail investors without clout to force her to perform or to return the funds.

What Carmel Fisher is doing is cleverly dragging the life-span of this miserable lousy performing fund out - so that she can maximized her fees year on year until she has bled the last cent out of it into her Gucci Italian silk-lined pockets as she tucks into the caviar and cries softly into her champagne, sitting on the balcony of the 6 star hotel overlooking the Eiffel Tower.

Oh, the Bentley is waiting downstairs?

Throw a few crumbs to the pathetic peasants and they should consider themselves lucky they are even getting the crumbs. Must remember to wave to them.

CJ
20-09-2012, 09:06 AM
Last NTA update - 82.81 cps on 14 Sep.
Sp was 69 cents = 17% discount.

Market is not dumb and is telling you something profound.

The decent thing to do is wind this fund up and return the full 82.81 cents back to unit holders but she will not do that and there is nothing to compel her to do that.

Just a lot of small time retail investors without clout to force her to perform or to return the funds.

What Carmel Fisher is doing is cleverly dragging the life-span of this miserable lousy performing fund out - so that she can maximized her fees year on year until she has bled the last cent out of it into her Gucci Italian silk-lined pockets as she tucks into the caviar and cries softly into her champagne, sitting on the balcony of the 6 star hotel overlooking the Eiffel Tower.

Oh, the Bentley is waiting downstairs?

Throw a few crumbs to the pathetic peasants and they should consider themselves lucky they are even getting the crumbs. Must remember to wave to them.Some funds like this have a wind up clause if the discount to NTA is over x% for a period of time. I am guessing there isn't one on this or the x% is too high.

OldRider
20-09-2012, 03:44 PM
From my data there are very few LIC's worldwide trading above NTA

For Australia http://www.asx.com.au/documents/products/LIC_NTA_Report_August_2012.pdf

It seems to be the same in Britain. The only example I know from those I follow
is Polar Technology Trust. Perhaps some of the opinions are too harsh?

777
20-09-2012, 03:59 PM
So right OldRider.

Balance
20-09-2012, 06:47 PM
From my data there are very few LIC's worldwide trading above NTA

For Australia http://www.asx.com.au/documents/products/LIC_NTA_Report_August_2012.pdf

It seems to be the same in Britain. The only example I know from those I follow
is Polar Technology Trust. Perhaps some of the opinions are too harsh?

But have they performed and delivered returns to investors?

A discount to NTA is fine if unitholders are getting performance.

It is obscene when only the manager makes money.

ratkin
21-09-2012, 04:23 AM
But have they performed and delivered returns to investors?

A discount to NTA is fine if unitholders are getting performance.

It is obscene when only the manager makes money.

MFF is an example of a properly run alternative. listed at a similat time as Marlin, battered by the
financial crisis but had a consistant strategy of buying quality at bargan prices.
The gap to NTA has now narrowed as their quality is starting to be recognised.

I know the Fisher funds are buying much smaller stocks but some of their purchases
and following sales have been bizarre to say the least, there at times appeared to be
no consistant strategy , except buy high , sell low

Lizard
21-09-2012, 08:54 AM
MFF is an example of a properly run alternative. listed at a similat time as Marlin, battered by the
financial crisis but had a consistant strategy of buying quality at bargan prices.
The gap to NTA has now narrowed as their quality is starting to be recognised.

I know the Fisher funds are buying much smaller stocks but some of their purchases
and following sales have been bizarre to say the least, there at times appeared to be
no consistant strategy , except buy high , sell low

MFF are an interesting comparison (I currently hold both). They are yet to return to $1 listing price (currently 92.5cps) and are only just about to pay their first dividend (1cps). Yet, based on the growth in FUM for manager (almost 50% pa in past couple of years), MFG, one would have presumed their management were one of the best in the game.

MLN share price is now considerably lower at 70cps, but, by my calculations, they have paid out a total of 21.96cps in dividends. Even without allowing for these being re-invested (and with no consideration of tax or forex comparisons), it appears that MLN and MFG have produced relatively similar returns since launch at "share price+dividends" level... yet at NTA level, MLN is carrying 13.25cps discount versus MFF's 3.5cps.

As I read it, despite current investor criticisms of Fisher Funds as managers and investor praise for Magellan, Fisher may have actually produced the better return for their investors over time in this particular comparison.

Anna Naum
21-09-2012, 09:22 AM
I wondered what the new Fund Mangers performance had been like, the CV reads well but when i looked at his performance it looked to be less than impressive.

ratkin
21-09-2012, 09:54 AM
MFF are an interesting comparison (I currently hold both). They are yet to return to $1 listing price (currently 92.5cps) and are only just about to pay their first dividend (1cps). Yet, based on the growth in FUM for manager (almost 50% pa in past couple of years), MFG, one would have presumed their management were one of the best in the game.

MLN share price is now considerably lower at 70cps, but, by my calculations, they have paid out a total of 21.96cps in dividends. Even without allowing for these being re-invested (and with no consideration of tax or forex comparisons), it appears that MLN and MFG have produced relatively similar returns since launch at "share price+dividends" level... yet at NTA level, MLN is carrying 13.25cps discount versus MFF's 3.5cps.

As I read it, despite current investor criticisms of Fisher Funds as managers and investor praise for Magellan, Fisher may have actually produced the better return for their investors over time in this particular comparison.

The stocks selected by MFF have been far superior to Marlins , and have perfrmed much better.
The reason MFF are now only returning to their starting point is because of the australian dollar . They have consistantly
maintained the aussie dollar is overvalued , and therefore didnt hedge it. They lost out due to that , although any fall off
in the aussie dollar could see their shares accumulate in value fairly quickly , as they have done recently

OldRider
21-09-2012, 11:10 AM
I have done a little research this morning, and it supports the view expressed
in Lizards post

The shareprice of MFF has increased rather more than has its NTA, MLN has decreased the most
compared to its NTA, in fact quite similarly to PMC

TGG has almost kept a similar ratio.

For us oldies the regular dividend payment, even if paid from capital, is helpful
for living expenses

ratkin
21-09-2012, 11:58 AM
Of course, perception is largely dependent on when you bought any of these investments. Somebody who paid 55c per share is likely to have a far more positive view than someone who bought at the IPO price of 1.00

Random_Walker
17-10-2012, 06:41 PM
Things are heating up here in advance of the AGM! https://www.nzx.com/companies/MLN/announcements/228564

MLN - Non-binding proposed resolution5:22pm, 17 Oct 2012 | MEETING17 October 2012
Dear Shareholder
Resolution proposed by Elevation Capital Management Limited for consideration at the Annual Shareholders’ Meeting
Introduction
Marlin has received a proposal dated 15 October 2012 from Elevation Capital Management Limited (Elevation Capital). The proposal is that a resolution be put to shareholders at the Annual Shareholders’ Meeting (to be held on 1 November 2012) that the Board terminates the current management agreement with Fisher Funds, and returns all capital to shareholders.

Anna Naum
17-10-2012, 08:38 PM
Interesting that Marlin has just signed for 5 years with Fisher Funds......I wonder when Marlin first got approached by Elevation?

Balance
18-10-2012, 12:47 PM
Interesting that Marlin has just signed for 5 years with Fisher Funds......I wonder when Marlin first got approached by Elevation?

The independent directors were celebrating over another 5 years of directors' fees.

Billy Boy
18-10-2012, 01:34 PM
Looking at the books....
seams thay are good shape on the balance sheet.
The markets are struggling back life with EQ 4ever....
This coy can re-adjust quite quickly and it ain't broken
by any means.
They are a bloody good divvy stock and no reason why
good divvy's wont continue.
Elevation are just being a pain and of course, they are competitors.
BB

BIRMANBOY
18-10-2012, 02:09 PM
Agree BB..they are simply asset strippers and not even any attempt at disguise at all. The only one supporting will be im(Balance) who wants to nail Carmels reputation every time he hears (dont mention F***** F***)
Looking at the books....
seams thay are good shape on the balance sheet.
The markets are struggling back life with EQ 4ever....
This coy can re-adjust quite quickly and it ain't broken
by any means.
They are a bloody good divvy stock and no reason why
good divvy's wont continue.
Elevation are just being a pain and of course, they are competitors.
BB

Balance
18-10-2012, 02:44 PM
Looking at the books....
seams thay are good shape on the balance sheet.
The markets are struggling back life with EQ 4ever....
This coy can re-adjust quite quickly and it ain't broken
by any means.
They are a bloody good divvy stock and no reason why
good divvy's wont continue.
Elevation are just being a pain and of course, they are competitors.
BB

Look at Carmel Fisher's track record with all her offerings over the years - lousy performances all round with KFL, BRM and Marlin.

Great marketing, wining and dining the reporters, financial advisors and brokers like Craigs who eagerly pushed their clients into the funds for the 1.5% brokerage she was giving.

years later - nothing but millions upon millions of management fees extracted for ???? and bugger all for investors.

Correct me if I am wrong and I will stand corrected!

And I will front up to Fisher Fund and apologize profusely.

Billy Boy
18-10-2012, 02:52 PM
Look at Carmel Fisher's track record with all her offerings over the years - lousy performances all round with KFL, BRM and Marlin.

Nothing but management fees for her and bugger all for investors.

Correct me if I am wrong and I will stand corrected! And Apologise!

I cant argue coz I live in Qtown and dont move in Auckland circuils.

However some of my freinds are Auck's, and they mostly wont agree with you.

These same people tell me some "not nice things" about this Elevation outfit.
cheers anyway
BB

BIRMANBOY
18-10-2012, 03:03 PM
Balance you have lost all your objectivity on these funds...In your own mind I understand you believe you have been screwed by them. Why? Because obviously the SP has dropped below what you originally paid. What about all the dividends you would have received over the time you owned them. Many investors are very happy with these funds and understand that management fees are part and parcel of running funds. You are stuck in a bad place here in my opinion..this constant criticism is based on the facts as you see them and not taking into account the many positives that many investors feel. Your'e not wrong just suffering from tunnel vision. But hey who hasnt been there.
Look at Carmel Fisher's track record with all her offerings over the years - lousy performances all round with KFL, BRM and Marlin.

Great marketing, wining and dining the reporters, financial advisors and brokers like Craigs who eagerly pushed their clients into the funds for the 1.5% brokerage she was giving.

years later - nothing but millions upon millions of management fees extracted for ???? and bugger all for investors.

Correct me if I am wrong and I will stand corrected!

And I will front up to Fisher Fund and apologize profusely.

Billy Boy
18-10-2012, 03:15 PM
Thks Sparky..
The not nice things I refer too, is not about the personel, more about the Coy in general.
There is a name there that I have heard before though !!!
BB

Balance
18-10-2012, 04:01 PM
Balance you have lost all your objectivity on these funds...In your own mind I understand you believe you have been screwed by them. Why? Because obviously the SP has dropped below what you originally paid. What about all the dividends you would have received over the time you owned them. Many investors are very happy with these funds and understand that management fees are part and parcel of running funds. You are stuck in a bad place here in my opinion..this constant criticism is based on the facts as you see them and not taking into account the many positives that many investors feel. Your'e not wrong just suffering from tunnel vision. But hey who hasnt been there.

Speak for yourself and your tunnel vision.

A simple request for you enlighten us as to Fisher Funds performance track record is met by comments not supported by facts.

The facts are that Fisher Funds have not performed. The dividends do not cover the capital losses suffered by unitholders but Fisher Funds continue to get millions upon millions of management fees (irrespective).

For the directors (independent? Good joke that!) to agree to another 5 years is totally unjustifiable.

BIRMANBOY
18-10-2012, 04:32 PM
Oh Ok I get it now...its only a fact if you say it ...that makes perfect sense...not... They have been performing fine for me 9% DIVIDEND YIELD...is that enough of a fact for you? A capital loss is only achieved if you buy and sell lower than you buy. I gather you bought high ok we have all done that but why not sit on it and at least receive dividends instead of selling at a loss. That would have been your decision and not really anything to do with the fund. Sometimes things recover even if it takes years. Its a personal investment philosophy that drives these things. Might I suggest that you clarify your statement as follows."The Fisher Funds have not performed for me" then I might stop questioning your objectivity.
Speak for yourself and your tunnel vision.

A simple request for you enlighten us as to Fisher Funds performance track record is met by comments not supported by facts.

The facts are that Fisher Funds have not performed. The dividends do not cover the capital losses suffered by unitholders but Fisher Funds continue to get millions upon millions of management fees (irrespective).

For the directors (independent? Good joke that!) to agree to another 5 years is totally unjustifiable.

Anna Naum
18-10-2012, 10:04 PM
Oh Ok I get it now...its only a fact if you say it ...that makes perfect sense...not... They have been performing fine for me 9% DIVIDEND YIELD...is that enough of a fact for you? A capital loss is only achieved if you buy and sell lower than you buy. I gather you bought high ok we have all done that but why not sit on it and at least receive dividends instead of selling at a loss. That would have been your decision and not really anything to do with the fund. Sometimes things recover even if it takes years. Its a personal investment philosophy that drives these things. Might I suggest that you clarify your statement as follows."The Fisher Funds have not performed for me" then I might stop questioning your objectivity.

But it is not real yield it is return of capital. They have to sell shares in the companies they hold in order to pay the so called dividend. At the same time they take a number of million in management fees. Sorry readers but the return of capital dressed up as a dividend is just a pig with lipstick.

You dont really believe in a year when Fook Yuu drops 80% (so far) that they actually had a yielding return.

To quote the Marlin May update:

'Dividend payments made in March, June, September and December. To meet the payments, Marlin Global will firstly utilise income from its investments and realised capital gains. If these are insufficient to cover the targeted payout Marlin Global may pay from its capital base'

Balance
18-10-2012, 11:06 PM
Oh Ok I get it now...its only a fact if you say it ...that makes perfect sense...not... They have been performing fine for me 9% DIVIDEND YIELD...is that enough of a fact for you? A capital loss is only achieved if you buy and sell lower than you buy. I gather you bought high ok we have all done that but why not sit on it and at least receive dividends instead of selling at a loss. That would have been your decision and not really anything to do with the fund. Sometimes things recover even if it takes years. Its a personal investment philosophy that drives these things. Might I suggest that you clarify your statement as follows."The Fisher Funds have not performed for me" then I might stop questioning your objectivity.

Carmel Fisher has trained you well to expect lousy performances and to treat reduction of capital as dividends - while she makes millions in management fees for lousy performances every year!

CJ
19-10-2012, 07:58 AM
It is clearly opportunism but it they can realise a 25% gain by closing the fund, then why wouldn't you.

modandm
19-10-2012, 08:04 AM
guys if you compare performance to benchmark you can see the fund has outperformed (albeit modestly) - the fact that the discount to NAV has increased should not be considered when judging the performance. A bit of balance is appropriate here.

If you have lost money its because you allocated assets to global small cap equity as an asset class - and that asset class has performed poorly. Don't blame the fund manager!

modandm
19-10-2012, 08:08 AM
It is clearly opportunism but it they can realise a 25% gain by closing the fund, then why wouldn't you.

because there may be investors who still want to be invested in the asset class and are supportive. To fisher's credit the implementation of a capital return through increased dividend payments which is designed to increase investor interest and narrow the gap to NAV is an example of good governance.

My personal opinion is LIC's are a bit of a flawed structure and should'nt be allowed but nonetheless I don't see criticisim leveled as balanced or fair.

And no im not invested nor am I any particular fan of carmel and co.

Random_Walker
19-10-2012, 08:17 AM
because there may be investors who still want to be invested in the asset class and are supportive. To fisher's credit the implementation of a capital return through increased dividend payments which is designed to increase investor interest and narrow the gap to NAV is an example of good governance.

Good governance would be instituting regular or at least one-off off-market tender buy-back at NAV (less 1 to 2% costs) to provide unit holders the opportunity to exit near NAV or to simply convert to an open-ended fund as proposed by Gary North way back when. However, I suspect either of those options has the potential to significantly reduce fees received by Fisher Funds so will probably never see the light of day (at least without some solid activism by shareholders).

Anna Naum
19-10-2012, 08:18 AM
The outperformance quoted is of the NAV, not of the Shareprice. It would be great if investors could get out at NAV, but they currently can not. As for the so called dividend, it is partly a capital return, so the actual yield is NOT what it seems. To call a capital return (some of your invested money) a dividend is simply PR speak, it is NOT yield as most would think of it.

BIRMANBOY
19-10-2012, 08:18 AM
Thats a mighty fine looking pig and a particularly fetching shade of lipstick however. Management fees are normal and expected by reasonable balanced individuals. If people think the fees are too high then they have a democratic right to do something about it...either canvass for voter support or exit the fund. If the fees were too high in relation to the results there would be a mass exodus...so I guess that answers that question. Whether you call it a yield or return of capital is somewhat immaterial since the cash doesnt care what you call it. ALso the policy states as you point out that the payout MAY be supported by a sell down of shares but they are constantly rebalancing their portfolio anyway. No fund will be without some duds. Bottom line is how much did you buy in for....what is the ongoing dividend yield....and how much can you exit for... Taking all these things into consideration..its a winner...for me.
But it is not real yield it is return of capital. They have to sell shares in the companies they hold in order to pay the so called dividend. At the same time they take a number of million in management fees. Sorry readers but the return of capital dressed up as a dividend is just a pig with lipstick.

You dont really believe in a year when Fook Yuu drops 80% (so far) that they actually had a yielding return.

To quote the Marlin May update:

'Dividend payments made in March, June, September and December. To meet the payments, Marlin Global will firstly utilise income from its investments and realised capital gains. If these are insufficient to cover the targeted payout Marlin Global may pay from its capital base'

Balance
19-10-2012, 08:20 AM
because there may be investors who still want to be invested in the asset class and are supportive. To fisher's credit the implementation of a capital return through increased dividend payments which is designed to increase investor interest and narrow the gap to NAV is an example of good governance.

My personal opinion is LIC's are a bit of a flawed structure and should'nt be allowed but nonetheless I don't see criticisim leveled as balanced or fair.

And no im not invested nor am I any particular fan of carmel and co.

Another well trained investor of the Carmel Fisher school of investing.

You guys are trained so well that you actually think lousy performances are acceptable!

And return of capital as dividends!!!!

So you give someone $1. She badly manages the money and it's down so she says I will give some of your money back every quarter. Meanwhile, she still charges you 3%+ pa to manage and administer your money!

If a bank does that, I can imagine the hue and cry.

But dress up a pig with lipsticks and there are some who actually believe it's pretty!

Clap clap!

Anna Naum
19-10-2012, 08:22 AM
It is clearly opportunism but it they can realise a 25% gain by closing the fund, then why wouldn't you.

Maybe but it is also opportunism by Fisher Funds and Carmel when they say vote against this, after all Carmel is charging approx $2m a year to run this little fund so we know where her interests are. Who do you back, the guy who want to offer you a 15+% return or the girl who wants to charge you fees no matter if the value of your investment goes up or down?

BIRMANBOY
19-10-2012, 08:27 AM
Its like any financial package...if you pay too much..you get to contemplate your errors. Blameing the product is sort of like complaining about the hammer when it doesnt strike the nail cleanly.
The outperformance quoted is of the NAV, not of the Shareprice. It would be great if investors could get out at NAV, but they currently can not. As for the so called dividend, it is partly a capital return, so the actual yield is NOT what it seems. To call a capital return (some of your invested money) a dividend is simply PR speak, it is NOT yield as most would think of it.

BIRMANBOY
19-10-2012, 08:34 AM
OH gosh thats a hard one lets see.....close it down and get a one time 15% or keep it going and get annual yield of 9% plus sitting with unrealized capital gain any time I want. As Homer says...DOHHH.
Maybe but it is also opportunism by Fisher Funds and Carmel when they say vote against this, after all Carmel is charging approx $2m a year to run this little fund so we know where her interests are. Who do you back, the guy who want to offer you a 15+% return or the girl who wants to charge you fees no matter if the value of your investment goes up or down?

Balance
19-10-2012, 08:35 AM
Its like any financial package...if you pay too much..you get to contemplate your errors. Blameing the product is sort of like complaining about the hammer when it doesnt strike the nail cleanly.

Nope. It's the holder of the hammer we are pointing the fault at.

Gee ... she HAS trained you well!

Anna Naum
19-10-2012, 08:37 AM
Its like any financial package...if you pay too much..you get to contemplate your errors. Blameing the product is sort of like complaining about the hammer when it doesnt strike the nail cleanly.

Maybe but when Marlin was first listed it did not talk in the prospectus about dividends being paid out from the capital invested. That was a change they made so that they could try and close the discount to NAV (was nearly 30%) so for the 3,000 investors in MArlin who purchased on floating, they have seen this so called quality investment fall to a big discount to the value of the assets and then they get paid back the money they invested dressed up as a dividend.

In years gone past it was Sir Ron and the likes that looked at companies that were trading at a discount to the value of the assets, launched a takeover and made the money for themselves. At least in this case Elevation Capital is looking to allow all shareholders to benefit, not just its own.

Anna Naum
19-10-2012, 08:44 AM
No fund will be without some duds. Bottom line is how much did you buy in for....what is the ongoing dividend yield....and how much can you exit for... Taking all these things into consideration..its a winner...for me.

Are you serious, so you think its OK to give someone money and then they return it to you as a dividend (which therefore reduces your capital) and think its a good deal. What are you drinking, because the coolaid must be strong.

For 3/4 of the investors in Marlin that is 3,000 investors they have not been able to buy in at the discount and have only seen there investment drop. If you are so keen on the dividend why not vote for the return @ NAV and invest in a company that pays dividends from EARNINGS, at least that way when you sell you still have a chance that your capital is there.

777
19-10-2012, 08:46 AM
As a shareholder in MLN I will vote against Elevation's proposal. I am with Birmanboy on this one. I have done very well out of MLN as I bought in after the discount established itself.

Balance
19-10-2012, 08:49 AM
As a shareholder in MLN I will vote against Elevation's proposal. I am with Birmanboy on this one. I have done very well out of MLN as I bought in after the discount established itself.

Carmel Fisher extends to you her congratulations as she has trained you well.

Anna Naum
19-10-2012, 08:54 AM
OH gosh thats a hard one lets see.....close it down and get a one time 15% or keep it going and get annual yield of 9% plus sitting with unrealized capital gain any time I want. As Homer says...DOHHH.

But it is not yield it is partly capital return. Seriously you should spend some time in the maths class, they teach it usually about year 12.

CJ
19-10-2012, 08:57 AM
because there may be investors who still want to be invested in the asset class and are supportive. And that is why is should be put to the vote. I would suggest that each year if the SP < 75% NAV, a vote should be held. Let the shareholders decide:


As a shareholder in MLN I will vote against Elevation's proposal. There is one vote.

Note: Not and never been a holder.

Balance
19-10-2012, 09:07 AM
But it is not yield it is partly capital return. Seriously you should spend some time in the maths class, they teach it usually about year 12.

Sad, isn't it that we have 'investors' who actually believe that kind of nonsense.

Oh well, that's why there are those who are obscenely rich from taking advantage of those who think like that.

Billy Boy
19-10-2012, 09:24 AM
As a shareholder in MLN I will vote against Elevation's proposal. I am with Birmanboy on this one. I have done very well out of MLN as I bought in after the discount established itself.

Here Here.... 777
I like this one coz they allow me exposure to O/Sea's equities without going through all the hoop's.
(Sorry Hoop, did'nt mean you... regards to Mrs Hoop)
Anna Naum.... You make some good points, but had the big bang in 2008 not happened, would we be having this discussion. ?
World equities are slowly picking up. So now is the best time to be re-ajusting.
IMO, Marlin has a good future.

Balance old son..... are you secretly in love with this Fisher Lady... ???. What you got invested there...? :cool:

Anna Naum
20-10-2012, 06:56 AM
Here Here.... 777

Anna Naum.... You make some good points, but had the big bang in 2008 not happened, would we be having this discussion. ?
World equities are slowly picking up. So now is the best time to be re-ajusting.
l:

The discount would still be there so I would still want this to be closed.

Balance
20-10-2012, 08:13 AM
The discount would still be there so I would still want this to be closed.

Only fair and proper way to offer such a product is via the open ended funds so that investors can exit at NAB if they want to exit.

But you will not get the likes of Carmel Fisher do that as her performance track record is such that most of the investors in KFL, BRM and MLN would have taken their money out a while ago and put it with other managers who actually perform!

We cannot have that , can we? Afterall, her managers, independent directors and she have put in a lot of thought about how to milk management fees for as long as they can without the pesky investors holding them to account and wanting their money out.

winner69
20-10-2012, 09:37 AM
Another well trained investor of the Carmel Fisher school of investing.

You guys are trained so well that you actually think lousy performances are acceptable!

And return of capital as dividends!!!!

So you give someone $1. She badly manages the money and it's down so she says I will give some of your money back every quarter. Meanwhile, she still charges you 3%+ pa to manage and administer your money!

If a bank does that, I can imagine the hue and cry.

But dress up a pig with lipsticks and there are some who actually believe it's pretty!

Clap clap!

Not up with play here Bal but are you saying they sell things to pay this divie? Doesn't this then reduce the amount of assets in the fund? So the NAV reduces ......yes? And then if the discount to the NAV remains constant then the share price will fall as well?

So cash in the hand but on the other hand the paper value of my MLN shares have gone down as well. .....or am really stupid and this is not what happens

winner69
20-10-2012, 09:51 AM
One thing I do get is that the discount to NAV is often what the market sees as the cost of future management fees ...think of it as OK you give somebody a $100 to look after for a long time but you are going to pay him $X a year to look after it and protect it ...so in reality when you get your $100 back you spent quite a lot of money in having it kept safe ....so it not really worth $100 today is it

In MLN case the discount to NPV is about $15 million .......that's what the market sees as how much the manager is taking out in fees in the future. The market is not inefficient or stupid or just doesn't get it ....the market is only valuing something for what it is really worth, taking into account what it knows ....ESP about management fees

Balance
20-10-2012, 10:51 AM
Not up with play here Bal but are you saying they sell things to pay this divie? Doesn't this then reduce the amount of assets in the fund? So the NAV reduces ......yes? And then if the discount to the NAV remains constant then the share price will fall as well?

So cash in the hand but on the other hand the paper value of my MLN shares have gone down as well. .....or am really stupid and this is not what happens

Exactly what is happening (capital paid out to look like dividends) BUT we have individuals here actually believing that Marlin is a great dividend stock!

So here's the rub :

1. Put in $1.00, sp falls to 96 cents immediately as costs etc eat up 4%.

2. Bad performance so NAB goes down to 85 cents.
Market discounts for bad performance so sp falls to 75 cents.

3. Pay out 6 cents from capital so NAB falls to 79cents.
Sp falls to 70 cents.
Take out 2 cents management fees, NAB = 77 cents.

4. Genius comes along and go - wow, 7 cents dividend on sp 70 cents - it's 10% yield!

5. Pay out another 7 cents next year so NAB falls to 70 cents. After management fees, NAB falls to 68 cents.

6. Super Genius comes along and says, wow dividend yield of over 10%.

Buy! Buy!

Meanwhile, those who put in $1.00 originally are wondering whether to get out or not but if they try to, they are doing so at a discount to NAB.

Meanwhile, the manager(s) are crying into their champagne - fearful that Elevation may just get the right support and wind the fee-generating loss making fund up.

ratkin
20-10-2012, 12:37 PM
100% correct

I know i like to talk up MFF in comparison , mainly becaue they started around the same time .
They are handling things much better.
Just announced their first dividend , of 1cent per share (apx 1%) The SP has just about fully recovered from the GFC and they are looking in good shape. The portfolio companies are paying MFF more in dividends than MFF are paying the shareholders , which is as it should be. There is enough left for them to grow.

Marlin on the other hand appears to be eating itself. Has anyone worked out how many years it would take for the SP to reach zero?

winner69
20-10-2012, 01:23 PM
Pity one can't buy shares in Carmel's management company

winner69
20-10-2012, 03:05 PM
A bit here and a bit there all adds up eh ..... I see the management collected $13m odd in fees lady year

Good on her .....making a few bob helping hundreds of thousands of nzer's getting richer ....sems win win .....well sort of

ratkin
20-10-2012, 03:06 PM
The strange thing about Marlin is that it is supposed to be investing in small growth companies, many of which dont pay dividends, why then is Marlin trying to act like a high yielding dividend stock??

CJ
20-10-2012, 07:15 PM
Winner- one comment re the discount reflecting future management fees.

If investors thought the management would deliver returns above market, the discount should be a premium.

Not an apples to apples comparison but I believe IFT trades above its NAV.

Anna Naum
23-10-2012, 04:29 PM
Reading the full releases over the weekend it looks like Elevation may have approached Marlin prior to the board of Marlin entering into a new agreement with Fisher Funds to manage Marlin. If so one has to question why the board of Marlin entered into a new contract when they knew a proposal to wind up Marlin was going to be made.

If this is correct it reflects very poor board governance by the independent directors of Marlin.

Balance
23-10-2012, 05:11 PM
Reading the full releases over the weekend it looks like Elevation may have approached Marlin prior to the board of Marlin entering into a new agreement with Fisher Funds to manage Marlin. If so one has to question why the board of Marlin entered into a new contract when they knew a proposal to wind up Marlin was going to be made.

If this is correct it reflects very poor board governance by the independent directors of Marlin.

Independent? Not when there's directors' fees to be earned to infinity.

Anna Naum
23-10-2012, 08:09 PM
Independent? Not when there's directors' fees to be earned to infinity.

Interesting thing is that the two so called independent directors were both appointed in the last 12 months so have yet to be voted for by shareholders.......thus can they really say the represent shareholders?

Balance
24-10-2012, 06:45 AM
Interesting thing is that the two so called independent directors were both appointed in the last 12 months so have yet to be voted for by shareholders.......thus can they really say the represent shareholders?

Chalkie's take on Marlin and the issue of the independence of the independent directors :

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/7854225/Shark-lunges-at-Fishers-wounded-Marlin

Excerpt : "Swasbrook was aware the contract was up for renewal and contacted Marlin independent director Mark Todd on September 13 to talk about his proposal. Todd resigned three days later. His resignation left just three directors on Marlin's board - Carmel Fisher, Alistair Ryan and Carol Campbell. The latter two are classified as independent.The same three directors comprise the boards of the other two Fisher-managed investment trusts - Kingfish and Barramundi. With Ryan and Campbell collecting directors' fees from three Fisher funds, are they really independent? Had Marlin been a British company, the answer would be no. In 2003, Britain's financial regulator, the Financial Services Authority, considered the issue of investment trust board independence."

Now, would Alistair and Carol be prepared to forgo between $90,000 to $150,000 a year in fees?

Silly question?

Balance
24-10-2012, 09:12 AM
I'll grab the popcorn, does someone want to do a cheese platter as well?

Indeed.

I wonder if Elevation will make an issue out of Alistair Ryan's being seen by some in the market as a loyal servant of Evan Davies, ex-CEO of Sky City. As CFO, Evan Davies and Alistair Ryan embarked on a series of ill-conceived wealth destructive debt funded acquisitions - Adelaide Casino, Canbet, Entertainment Centre, Queenstown etc while allowing the cash cow Auckland casino to run down to such a extent that dealers had to wear flea collars to keep away the fleas infecting the main casino floors!

slimwin
24-10-2012, 09:55 AM
Interesting article. It's swayed me.

CJ
24-10-2012, 10:09 AM
Interesting article. It's swayed me. Swayed you? into giving them a chance to narrow the discount or winding it up? Or it just made your head dizzle and you nearly fell over?

Balance
24-10-2012, 10:21 AM
[QUOTE=slimwin;383901]Interesting article. It's swayed me.[/QUOTEs] Swayed you? into giving them a chance to narrow the discount or winding it up? Or it just made your head dizzle and you nearly fell over?

I predict Fisher Fund will reach a settlement with Elevation.

Otherwise, Fisher's track record of '"buying some and keep buying to get short term exceptional performances and attracting more funds under management with the ultimate end result of 'buying high and selling low'" will come under scrutiny.

Examples? Rakon, Pumpkin Patch, TUA but to name 3! Then, there's all that lovely stocks in ASX bought with same strategy under Barramundi.

I still remember the infamous Prudential Emerging Companies' Trust of 1992 to 1994.

slimwin
24-10-2012, 12:15 PM
Swayed me in as much as I was happy to let Malin carry on and prove itself but I hadn't followed the appointment of directors as close as I should.

Remembering the vote is non-binding, I don't believe elevation will manage a return of capital but it should cause an inward look from the directors of Fischer.

I also don't think they will want the bad press.

Each their own CJ. I'm not selling yet.

Random_Walker
24-10-2012, 06:53 PM
Balance, you may have a very good point. It might affect Fishers too much to have a bare-knuckle fight with a fund minnow. Elevation can't lose with the lack of publicity no matter what the outcome. Fisher's don't need the bad press. Perhaps there will be an off-market transaction.....

May be if they are sensible they will offer to make the fund open ended or at least run an off-market tender offer to buyback stock at NAV (less costs)

Jaa
25-10-2012, 04:01 AM
May be if they are sensible they will offer to make the fund open ended or at least run an off-market tender offer to buyback stock at NAV (less costs)

I have been invested in Templeton Emerging Markets on the NZX (TEM) for 6 years or so and they ran an off-market tender a couple of years ago that benefited both the people wishing to exit at a smaller discount and ongoing holders by increasing NAV. I think the tendered discount was about 4%.

It is a very good option in my opinion to narrow discounts to NAV. Though in hindsight the fact that so many shareholders took up the offer was a clear signal to get out of emerging market shares for a while!

For those interested TEM is very well run by its English based board with an excellent manager and high long term returns.

Random_Walker
25-10-2012, 08:00 AM
So Elevation has release a presentation on this on their website:

http://www.elevationcapital.co.nz/insights/ec-presentations

Anna Naum
25-10-2012, 10:17 AM
So Elevation has release a presentation on this on their website:

http://www.elevationcapital.co.nz/insights/ec-presentations

That is a stunning analysis of Marlin, the directors have a lot to answer for. All shareholders should read this before voting or attending the AGM.

winner69
25-10-2012, 10:19 AM
.... but whatever that regular dividend is bloody good

Balance
25-10-2012, 10:20 AM
That is a stunning analysis of Marlin, the directors have a lot to answer for. All shareholders should read this before voting or attending the AGM.

Yes, chopping and changing their presentations and comparisons of performances to confuse and potentially mislead investors and unit holders.

Anna Naum
25-10-2012, 11:48 AM
.... but whatever that regular dividend is bloody good

If you look at the Elevation presentation on page 8 they show VERY clearly that it is not a dividend at all, rather a capital return that reduces the investment that remains, this policy taken to its natural conclusion results in no money left to invest or to pay a dividend.

Balance
25-10-2012, 02:06 PM
If you look at the Elevation presentation on page 8 they show VERY clearly that it is not a dividend at all, rather a capital return that reduces the investment that remains, this policy taken to its natural conclusion results in no money left to invest or to pay a dividend.

W69 is being ironical, me thinkth.

Coming to a stage whereby the independent directors better have a very very very good case for renewing the contract of Fisher, bearing in mind that they will be influenced by the fact that they are getting $90,000 to $150,000 in directors' fees from being INDEPENDENT directors of all 3 Fisher listed funds.

But as W69 would state, they are people of complete and utter integrity with nothing but unitholders' interests in mind, are individuals with undoubted capabilities who carefully evaluated how Fisher has been managing the fund, presenting the lousy performances to unitholders so they understand how badly Fisher management has been and generally, are people of utmost selflessness. They are, ain't they? Money is not everything, right?

Anna Naum
25-10-2012, 04:09 PM
[QUOTE=Balance;384039]W69 is being ironical, me thinkth.

Gotcha, I was thinking they/he/she usually is on to it but best I point out the potential flaw in the argument

winner69
25-10-2012, 04:27 PM
[QUOTE=Balance;384039]W69 is being ironical, me thinkth.

Gotcha, I was thinking they/he/she usually is on to it but best I point out the potential flaw in the argument

And I think Balance was being 'ironical' with how I feel about Carmen et al ........it's all heresay

Anna Naum
25-10-2012, 04:47 PM
Looking forward to the Marlin meeting next week. Elevation has given Caramel a nice amount of time to try and come back with an independent view for the 'independent' directors to claim as the reasons for such incompetence.

Random_Walker
25-10-2012, 05:44 PM
Looking forward to the Marlin meeting next week. Elevation has given Caramel a nice amount of time to try and come back with an independent view for the 'independent' directors to claim as the reasons for such incompetence.

Bets on who will win this?

Anna Naum
26-10-2012, 05:02 PM
Bets on who will win this?

To my way of thinking Elevation has already won, Caramel and her hand picked 'independent' directors have been found to have acted in a less than 'best interest' manner.

FIGJAM
26-10-2012, 10:07 PM
It seems Random_Walker does most of his walking around the Elevation office and his posts on the NZX forum are not so random.

It's pretty obvious RW is Chris Swasbrook.

RW only posts when Elevation is actively promoting themselves, their causes and/or seeking support.

Salvus - Jul 2011 - posting when Elevation is a substantial shareholder and is agitating
Seeka/Satara - Jul to Nov 2011 - posting when Elevation is a substantial shareholder of Satara and Chris Swasbrook is a director
Kirkaldies - Sep 2011 - posting when Elevation is a shareholder and agitating
PGC - Oct 2011 - posting when Elevation is agitating
And now Marlin…

And Kirkaldies again... Then Deleted... Go Figure...

Come on Chris, show yourself.

Where is the transparency and good governance that you speak of?
When does anonymous activism and promotion through this forum become market manipulation?

777
26-10-2012, 10:10 PM
He will be making low ball offers soon.

Random_Walker
27-10-2012, 05:45 AM
Wrong! I have also posted on Energy Mad, Rubicon, PGC, etc none of which I believe Elevation have positions in... Though I do own some of the same value stocks and like to follow them and their activist plays. However everything they do is released on their website publicly with letters, presentations, etc so anyone can follow it.

Balance
27-10-2012, 07:53 AM
Wrong! I have also posted on Energy Mad, Rubicon, PGC, etc none of which I believe Elevation have positions in... Though I do own some of the same value stocks and like to follow them and their activist plays. However everything they do is released on their website publicly with letters, presentations, etc so anyone can follow it.

Not to worry, RW.

This is typical of the brigade that attempts to shut down posters and postings they do not like because of their own agendas. Tells more about them than you.

I had posters trying to shut me down with Pike River Coal when I criticized the management of the mine and company, even to the extent of them writing private messages and complaining to admin. Then, the mine blew up and only then, I think they knew what a grievous disservice they had done to the dead miners and their families. Instead of being objective and joining in the criticism of how incompetent the mine managers were, they were intent on supporting the incompetency and shutting down anyone who dared to take them on. Very telling of what sort of individuals those posters were/are.

Keep up the good work and let's keep posting and exchanging views and ideas.

Anna Naum
27-10-2012, 07:54 AM
FIGJAM, is this the case of the pot calling the kettle black? You've posted twice on this board - the same comment twice, once here on the Marlin thread, the other in the Kirkaldies thread. It is you who is abusing Sharetrader by using this forum as a proxy to attack a poster when you've had no other participation. Whoever Random_Walker is, they have been a member for over a year.

Are YOU in the pay of Fisher Funds or a fund associated with Carmel? And who made you the Sharetrader police?

And does the name "FIGJAM" suggest that you have an over inflated view of yourself? Could you be some kind of business, sports or celebrity overachiever?

Agree Sparky, given the issues that Hotcopper faces in AU, this sort of post would be removed there (and should be removed here).

Balance
27-10-2012, 07:59 AM
He will be making low ball offers soon.

Shame on you, 777.

FIGJAM
27-10-2012, 08:12 AM
Random_Walker, If you say so...


SparkyTheClown, Balance, Anna_Naum
I have been a member of this community for over four years. I don’t believe posting is a membership requirement.

As for the name... well I just wanted to fit in.

Balance
27-10-2012, 08:31 AM
Random_Walker, If you say so...


SparkyTheClown, Balance, Anna_Naum
I have been a member of this community for over four years. I don’t believe posting is a membership requirement.

As for the name... well I just wanted to fit in.

No, postings are not a requirement. Nor should it be!

But rather strange you then choose to make your first posting to be something of such a personal nature?

iceman
27-10-2012, 08:41 AM
Shareholder Association say they have been studying this closely and taking legal advice. Very concerned about conflicting information with regards to governance issues. Asking members for "undirected proxies" until they have a better informed position !

CJ
27-10-2012, 02:29 PM
I don't have any money in Marlin or any other Fisher fund, nor with Elevation. So I'm not self-interested here. But what I actually do like is some good old fashioned shareholder activism where there is a challenge of ideas and some accountability. That's good for shareholders who haven't done well in Marlin.This reflects my sentiments. It is up the the shareholders what they want, but the directors should be accountable to the shareholders who hear all perspectives, not just blindly relying on management.

Balance
28-10-2012, 07:34 AM
That's the warning I gave prior to the IPO. Investors could have save themselves some $$$, eh Shasta.

No need to wait and see how they perform - Marlin is a dog, not a fish.

Still like this posting of mine the best in terms of predicting how Marlin will perform - Dec 2007.

Balance
28-10-2012, 12:04 PM
Yes, that's a bullseye. Hopefully the journos who troll this site for quotes pick up on that one.

Unlikely. Too many journos have fallen under the spell of Fisher Fund. One female journo went as far as to say that Fisher's success is a source of aggro for an industry dominated by males - and then, proceeded to write about the wonderful performances of Fisher Funds!

FIGJAM
28-10-2012, 03:39 PM
Wrong! I have also posted on Energy Mad, Rubicon, PGC, etc none of which I believe Elevation have positions in... Though I do own some of the same value stocks and like to follow them and their activist plays. However everything they do is released on their website publicly with letters, presentations, etc so anyone can follow it.

I guess then, consistent with the theory, your recent deletion of previous posts is random and will have no influence in future.

Weak form indeed.

Balance
28-10-2012, 04:07 PM
What is Fishers' competitive advantage investing beyond NZ? None, it seems.

Barramundi shows that they cannot even make it in Australia. BRM is trading at 90 cents compared to the Australian market which has gone up over 20% over the same period. And investors are paying plenty of fees for Fishers to turn $1.00 into 90 cents in BRM.

Marlin at 79 cents? The market is saying -'you ain't seen nothing yet. 50 cents is where it will go when they actually start investing.'

March 2009 - Marlin turned into a real dog and dropped below 50 cents.

Fisher Funds strategy of buying a stock and keep buying only works in NZ - typically in illiquid stocks or in stocks where big positions are built up.

Rakon, PPL, TUA, BGR etc etc

Balance
29-10-2012, 09:50 AM
Marlin have just released their monthly update.

https://www.nzx.com/files/attachments/165609.pdf

"We continue to focus our energy and research efforts on analysing companies one-by-one. This is wherewe have an edge and have conviction to generate returns over thelong-term. "

A curious comment given the performance of some of Marlin's stock picks.


Fat chance of making good returns analysing companies beyond Australasia when Fisher Fund cannot even properly analyse companies in Australia and NZ!

Can you imagine the overseas companies opening up to Marlin when it is a little minnow compared to the multi-billion dollar funds out there with unlimited resources to source the best deals, IPOs and research?

CJ
29-10-2012, 10:57 AM
[SIZE=3]"We continue to focus our energy and research efforts on analysing companies one-by-one. This is wherewe have an edge and have conviction to generate returns over thelong-term. "So they review all listed companies in the world one by one including interviewing management and understanding supply chain/customers/SWAT/etc.

Doomed. Focus on NZ and Australia.

Balance
29-10-2012, 11:22 AM
So they review all listed companies in the world one by one including interviewing management and understanding supply chain/customers/SWAT/etc.

Doomed. Focus on NZ and Australia.

And they can't even get NZ or Australia right!

Anna Naum
29-10-2012, 01:32 PM
So they review all listed companies in the world one by one including interviewing management and understanding supply chain/customers/SWAT/etc.

Doomed. Focus on NZ and Australia.

And the new fund manager has a terrible performance record. Look at his funds performance as per Elevation presentation

http://bit.ly/TNW98J

Page 25.

I did not see Caramel using that bit of data!!

winner69
29-10-2012, 03:19 PM
But one of their recent newsletters said it was hectic on their trip around Europe talking to companies ....no time to enjoy themselves?

Anna Naum
30-10-2012, 07:13 AM
I see the board has yet to answer the burning issue of why they entered into a new management contract when they knew someone was looking to propose to close the fund down......at best VERY poor form....at least pathetic management of the company by the independent directors.

CJ
31-10-2012, 04:54 PM
Shareholders association are supporting the windup.

Questioning why independent directors didn't review management agreement an put it out to tender.

And seeking NZX rule change so they won't be considered independent.

Anna Naum
31-10-2012, 05:04 PM
Shareholders association are supporting the windup.

Questioning why independent directors didn't review management agreement an put it out to tender.

And seeking NZX rule change so they won't be considered independent.

www.nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/nz-shareholders-assn-questions-rubber-024346563.html

Balance
31-10-2012, 05:06 PM
Shareholders association are supporting the windup.

Questioning why independent directors didn't review management agreement an put it out to tender.

And seeking NZX rule change so they won't be considered independent.

Of course they are independent!

$90,000 to $150,000 fees a year from being directors of MLN, BRM and KFL - not enough to sell their integrity.

Or is it?

Anna Naum
31-10-2012, 05:55 PM
Of course they are independent!

$90,000 to $150,000 fees a year from being directors of MLN, BRM and KFL - not enough to sell their integrity.

Or is it?

And on top of all that they do all three companies in the same morning (notice how the NZX announcements come out at the same time for all three Caramel companies) so the two 'Independent' directors are actually hauling in the dosh and just rubber stamping things across all three companies.

Balance
01-11-2012, 08:22 AM
And on top of all that they do all three companies in the same morning (notice how the NZX announcements come out at the same time for all three Caramel companies) so the two 'Independent' directors are actually hauling in the dosh and just rubber stamping things across all three companies.

One guesses that the independent directors better get ready to be asked the question at the AGM - "What do they see their role as and how are they performing in that role."

777
01-11-2012, 05:36 PM
Looks like the shareholders decided then.

Balance
01-11-2012, 09:46 PM
Looks like the shareholders decided then.

Hence the contempt with which they are held by the very same people who are supposed to look after their interests.

Reminds me of the Hanover investors who voted for merger with ALF.

Balance
02-11-2012, 10:59 AM
Best laugh of the month :

https://www.nzx.com/files/attachments/166044.pdf

MLN - Determination of Directors Independence
11:50am, 2 Nov 2012 | DIRECTOR
2 November 2012

Determination of Directors Independence
Listing Rule 3.3.2

The Marlin Global Limited Board has determined that the following directors are independent directors per listing rule 3.3.2:

Alistair Ryan – Chairman
Carol Campbell – Chair of Audit & Risk Committee

The following director is not independent due to “Disqualifying Relationships” as defined in the Listing Rules:

Carmel Fisher


Ben Doshi
Chief Financial Officer
Marlin Global Limited

slimwin
03-11-2012, 07:38 AM
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10844748

Balance
03-11-2012, 08:10 AM
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10844748

Excerpt from an interview : "we have a very similar approach to Warren Buffett."

Guess who said the above?

Thanks for another good laugh this morning :

Underperforms stated benchmark by a staggering 42.1% (more if you use share price performance) so "independent" chairman changes the performance benchmark for comparison purposes to try and divert attention away from what an appallingly bad performance Fisher Fund has delivered.

Remember that the performance is from a manager who markets herself as someone who invests as in the Warren Buffett mould!

I think I will send the article to Warren Buffett so he can have a good laugh as well about the pretenders who use his name to get money in from investors but make all kind of excuses when they cannot deliver like Warren does.

********* Excerpt : "Chairman Alistair Ryan admitted that Marlin's recent performance had been unsatisfactory but he highlighted a graph showing it had outperformed the MSCI Global Small Cap Gross Index (in NZ dollar terms). A release to the NZX in July showed that Marlin's NAV had risen by a total of 7.9 per cent since November 2007 whereas the MSCI index was down 10.5 per cent over the same period. However the company's benchmark, which is the NZX bank bill rate plus 5 per cent, has appreciated by over 50 per cent since inception, well above Marlin's 7.9 per cent." *******

And here comes the best part - Fisher Fund is doing its best so it does not matter that the performance is bad! Wonder how many brokers and financial planners read that and explained that to their clients before putting money into Marlin. Or was it the juicy brokerage that they received and the yearly monitoring fee they receive from their clients which motivated them to put their clients' money with the Warren Buffett disciple?

******Excerpt : "The problem with this process is that the manager is only required to "do its best to achieve a return on the portfolio which meets or exceeds the benchmark rate over the medium to long term".*******

winner69
14-11-2012, 03:55 PM
Good Sept quarter update ......love it when things like Tom Tailor are up 27% for the quarter

No doubt Carmel gets the shareholder discount

Anna Naum
14-11-2012, 04:21 PM
SP continues to head South....down nearly 10% from where it was when Elevation were causing Caramel some problems.

Anna Naum
14-11-2012, 04:23 PM
Brent Sheather points out a few issues with MLN and Caramel.


www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10847181

Balance
14-11-2012, 07:11 PM
Brent Sheather points out a few issues with MLN and Caramel.


www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10847181

I see she still has "F##K *O*" in the portfolio.

Kinda telling that to all unit-holders, right?

Balance
15-11-2012, 07:12 AM
"Votes in favour [of Elevation] accounted for fewer than 8% of total shares on issue, Marlin said." Doesn't sound like much. But the flip side is that only 31% of total shares on issue actually voted to support Fisher Funds. Hardly a resounding endorsement.... I'm not a Marlin or Elevation investor but I do admire Chris Swasbrook's audacity/nous."

Marlin shareholders deserve the contempt shown to them by Carmel Fisher and her team.

winner69
15-11-2012, 07:32 AM
Caramel and Swashbuckler sounds like a partnership made in heaven

Maybe they should join up ... the mind boggles

JayRiggs
15-11-2012, 05:40 PM
I have been a Marlin shareholder for almost 2 years and I think their performance has been piss poor.
I voted for Elevation Capital to wind this crappy fund up so I can get my money back, so I'm disappointed this didn't happen. Perhaps the ones who voted against Elevation are seduced by Carmel... I admit I was back when I first bought, maybe I still am for still holding.
I'll take a bit of a loss if I sold now, so I'm just gonna sit on these crappy units for a long long time and hope Carmel and her team of men can turn it around.

CJ
15-11-2012, 07:27 PM
The loss is a sunk cost. If you were to invest money now, would you choose marlin. If not, sell.

janner
15-11-2012, 07:39 PM
Sound advice Sparky and CJ.

Balance
15-11-2012, 08:21 PM
I have been a Marlin shareholder for almost 2 years and I think their performance has been piss poor.
I voted for Elevation Capital to wind this crappy fund up so I can get my money back, so I'm disappointed this didn't happen. Perhaps the ones who voted against Elevation are seduced by Carmel... I admit I was back when I first bought, maybe I still am for still holding.
I'll take a bit of a loss if I sold now, so I'm just gonna sit on these crappy units for a long long time and hope Carmel and her team of men can turn it around.

The team including a Chairman, Alistair Ryan, who is "not afraid" of her?

I saw Mr Ryan in action when he was CFO and director at Sky City. When Evan Davies told him to jump, he asked how high. That's how Sky City got into the mess they got into, loading up on debt and acquiring all kinds of operations - Canbet, Entertainment Centre, Adelaide Casino etc. Starved Auckland casino until dealers in the Auckland main dealing room had to wear flea collars to ward off fleas as the place was so badly ran down and maintained!

Fat hope of turning things around in my strong opinion.

Anna Naum
16-11-2012, 10:24 AM
The team including a Chairman, Alistair Ryan, who is "not afraid" of her?

I saw Mr Ryan in action when he was CFO and director at Sky City. When Evan Davies told him to jump, he asked how high. That's how Sky City got into the mess they got into, loading up on debt and acquiring all kinds of operations - Canbet, Entertainment Centre, Adelaide Casino etc. Starved Auckland casino until dealers in the Auckland main dealing room had to wear flea collars to ward off fleas as the place was so badly ran down and maintained!

Fat hope of turning things around in my strong opinion.

So very true Balance, a good summary

Balance
16-11-2012, 01:19 PM
So very true Balance, a good summary

Took the institutional shareholders to force a change in directorship, and then management before Sky City started turning around.

All those lost years and lost opportunities - because Evan Davies and his lackey, Alistair Ryan, were too busy empire building and destroying value for shareholders.

It is going to take the same sort of changes before Marlin will stop being a dog.

Woof woof - from overseas.

percy
16-11-2012, 01:58 PM
Funny.? I went to a SKC presentation given by Alistair Ryan a couple of years ago,put on by local broker Hamilton Hindin and Greene.I only went along to hear Mark Waller from Ebos speak.Anyhow Alistair Ryan so impressed me I brought some SKC shares.He out lined their future plans for all of their Casinos.All made good sense to me.He knew the business inside out.

janner
16-11-2012, 09:15 PM
How did you know that " he knew the business inside out ".. Percy.. .. Do you have some experience in the running of casino's.. :-))

Or was he just a good talker ??

Not picking on you .. Simply trying to identify which of the impressions given on here ( Balances or Yours ) are closer to the truth..

Disc.. Not a visitor to SKC or holder.. Not a holder of Marlin .. Thank goodness.

percy
17-11-2012, 06:29 AM
Really the way he answered questions from the floor.

Anna Naum
17-11-2012, 10:35 AM
The direction the SKC SP took once they drifted away from the core asset of Auckland suggest that Mr Market eventually took a dim view of the expansion no matter how well management might have been at explaining it. If I had 50c for every time SKC management had said in meetings that Adelaide was a great buy and it would soon start to turn around, that they were now getting the right response from the State authorities re expansion, that the carpark was the answer and construction would soon begin.....I would have a lot of $$$ to spend at SKC in the fancy high rollers room.

percy
17-11-2012, 10:55 AM
The direction the SKC SP took once they drifted away from the core asset of Auckland suggest that Mr Market eventually took a dim view of the expansion no matter how well management might have been at explaining it. If I had 50c for every time SKC management had said in meetings that Adelaide was a great buy and it would soon start to turn around, that they were now getting the right response from the State authorities re expansion, that the carpark was the answer and construction would soon begin.....I would have a lot of $$$ to spend at SKC in the fancy high rollers room.

Fair comment on Adelaide.

Balance
17-11-2012, 11:48 AM
How did you know that " he knew the business inside out ".. Percy.. .. Do you have some experience in the running of casino's.. :-))

Or was he just a good talker ??

Not picking on you .. Simply trying to identify which of the impressions given on here ( Balances or Yours ) are closer to the truth..

Disc.. Not a visitor to SKC or holder.. Not a holder of Marlin .. Thank goodness.

Mr Ryan might know a lot about casinos but he did not seem to a have clue about how to make acquisitions and make them work.

Anna Naum
19-11-2012, 07:03 AM
Mr Ryan might know a lot about casinos but he did not seem to a have clue about how to make acquisitions and make them work.

But he did (and continues to) show a great ability to portray calm and knowledge of a situation that others are orchestrating. Mr Evans was the man making the big moves at SKC with regard to expansion etc that got SKC into trouble, however it was Mr Ryan who told investors that they knew what they were doing and everything was going to be OK.

Now we have Ms Fisher making the decisions and Mr Ryan telling us they know what they are doing and everything will be OK. Sound familiar!

Anna Naum
19-11-2012, 07:08 AM
I note with some interest (and again missed by the financial press) that the main stock Marlin wanted to talk about at the AGM was the fund deciding to invest in VW. After the big deal they made about how this illustrated the smarts and new direction of the investment team I find two points interesting.

1. VW does not feature in the top stock holdings in the latest report from MLN
2. When Marlin floated (and most reports I have read from them ever since) they talk about being a small to medium cap company investor. VW I think in most investors minds is anything but a small cap. Does this mean that by stealth Marlin is no longer following the mandate for investment that it has claimed for all these years?

Balance
19-11-2012, 10:46 AM
Anna,

1. It may have only been a very recent investment, eg prior to the AGM but enough time to include in a pre-printed newsletter.

2. A very very good point. It is an admission of defeat by Marlin's investment managers that they have abandoned the small to medium cap strategy. However, it could be argued that with a new investment manager (Roger Garrett replacing Ken Applegate) that this was a natural consequence. Nevertheless, it should have been put to the shareholders that this strategy was going to change.

Surely this is a material departure from the prospectus intent and any unit holder who disagrees have right to exit - at NAV?

JayRiggs
19-11-2012, 12:38 PM
Thanks for the advice Sparky and CJ. You've given me some things to think about.
I did have a larger MLN holding earlier in the year, and I sold about 70% of it in May.
I thought I'd hold on to a few in case markets rise, but somehow MLN has fallen in a rising market.

slimwin
19-11-2012, 01:06 PM
Out as of today. That will be the last time I invest in a fund with the Fisher name attached.

Balance
21-11-2012, 10:45 PM
Thanks for the advice Sparky and CJ. You've given me some things to think about.
I did have a larger MLN holding earlier in the year, and I sold about 70% of it in May.
I thought I'd hold on to a few in case markets rise, but somehow MLN has fallen in a rising market.

But Fisher fees keep going, falling or rising market .... year after year.

Oh, share price is 65 cents today? Hard baked cookies.

winner69
22-11-2012, 03:51 PM
But Fisher fees keep going, falling or rising market .... year after year.

Oh, share price is 65 cents today? Hard baked cookies.

Bal .....you forget about the juicy 1.67 cents divie as a Xmas preso

Makes share price lok cheap

Anna Naum
22-11-2012, 04:56 PM
Bal .....you forget about the juicy 1.67 cents divie as a Xmas preso

Makes share price lok cheap

Problem winner is that it is not a dividend, it is really a capital return

Balance
22-11-2012, 05:40 PM
Problem winner is that it is not a dividend, it is really a capital return

Shhhhhhh

Carmel would not like her unitholders to be reminded of that!

Balance
14-03-2013, 05:18 PM
https://www.nzx.com/files/attachments/172426.pdf

That Carmel performs wonders, doesn't she?

In 3 years, MSCI index up 21.9% but Marlin's NAV is down 3.8%, and shareholders' returns up 2.0%.

But her management returns = 2.0%+ so unit holders, no smoked marlin for you - only canned mackerel (used by date 15 March 2010).

You put in the money, you take the risk and she eats the crayfish and caviar with champagne, irrespective!

Lizard
23-05-2013, 02:09 PM
Marlin looking a bit better?

Price picked up the last few days and currently 75cps against NAV hitting 90cps. Given they still pay out 2% of NAV per quarter as div, then it's good to see NAV also rising. I have been buying at 70-73cps over past few months, as the regular high yield, 17% discount to NAV and additional diversification (i.e. exposure to markets I'm not interested in investing in directly) are all pluses for the long-term, income generating portfolios.

CJ
23-05-2013, 02:22 PM
17% discount to NAV To continue the fishy theme, isn't that a red herring as you will (probably) suffer a 17% discount to NAV when you sell as well.

blah
23-05-2013, 02:46 PM
To continue the fishy theme, isn't that a red herring as you will (probably) suffer a 17% discount to NAV when you sell as well.

I probably not - the discount to NAV changes all the time for some reason that I don't know of. The large 17% discount to NAV indicates people aren't very confident in the managers re Marlin - and for good reason. There may be upside potential if confidence is restored through some solid and consistent performance - then not only the NAV will be higher, but should trade at a narrower discount also.

But at the same time, the large discount will mean the yield is better, since the quarterly div/distribution is based on the higher NAV rather than the share price. So as an income stock it should be quite good.

Regarding arguments that this dividend is actually a capital redistribution - does it matter at all? From the finance perspective where it focuses on cash flows: cash flows are cash flows regardless of where this comes from.

I've never actually considered Marlin since I don't really know anything about their investments (and too lazy to). I've always considered KFL to be the better of the three brothers.

Billy Boy
23-05-2013, 02:59 PM
I have been picking up these from time to time as a divvy stock and from that end they have preformed very well . 10% plus PA, and a pie divvy to boot.
Now I dont care if the boss wears a skirt or not, so long as I get to ride the gravy train.
Now I and wondering if it's the skirt thingy thats got some posters getting the pricker here.
Or is just coz MLN is not in the NZX50 so not getting the exposure ??
cheers BB:)

Lizard
08-07-2013, 02:02 PM
MLN have more than recovered the NAV lost in paying out a 2% dividend last month, despite turbulence in global markets. They are still trading at a 20% discount to NAV (at 71cps). I think they make a logical addition to a diversified portfolio at current prices, particularly for those requiring regular income from their investments.

Lizard
08-07-2013, 05:40 PM
Do you ever think it will close up that 20% discount to NAV? My understanding is that closed end funds tend to trade at significant discounts to NAV, unless there is a liquidation threat.

They usually trade at a discount, but 20% is at the extreme end! There are always some closed end funds that trade at a premium - e.g. MFF:ASX currently trading at $1.39/unit, but with only $1.19 of NTA (or $1.26 allowing for deferred tax). Some more illiquid investment trusts on the NZX secondary listing can be picked up at odd discounts occasionally after taking account of currency translation, but I still think 20% discount is a bargain.

Additionally, the PIE structure may be tax efficient for some investors and the relative liquidity over unlisted funds can also be an advantage.

gorn
08-07-2013, 10:27 PM
My first post
Have been following the fisher funds discounts for some time, and have Marlin for divvie (effectively 10% after tax) plus currency effect as our dollar falls. I think the discount will shrink if the NTA gets back above a $1 - it certainly did with Kingfish fund since it moved above the issue price in october last years - even traded a premium briefly for a day or two recently.

Lizard
09-07-2013, 06:42 AM
Welcome gorn! :)

One of the most challenging positions in investment is those people who rely on their portfolio for income, but whose portfolio is relatively small and who struggle to generate an excess of income - may even need to erode capital.

These people cannot afford to lose capital or erode it too quickly, as they have very few good options for rebuilding that capital and therefore require a low risk approach. Normally, that would mean diversification or safe low-returning investments such as term deposits. However, these folk also rely on the income (preferably spread across the year) and the lower the return, the higher the likelihood they will need to eat into capital. Their portfolio is probably also too small to diversify at a stock-specific level. I am guessing there are quite a few retirees with $50-$200k in savings on top of the family home who would be in such a position.

Faced with such a situation, I personally would try to put 60-80% in rolling term deposits and then look for opportunities with the potential for some capital growth for the remainder, aiming for a lower risk end of spectrum and good liquidity. Right now, I would probably choose a selection of secondary market bonds with resettable rates, property trusts and share funds. This is where I think MLN has a niche - providing exposure to offshore markets and currency movements while still paying regular, large dividends in a tax-favourable structure. It is also liquid, has low exit/entry costs (brokerage) and covered by local regulation. At 20% discount, the downside seems capped to a degree.

I would be interested in hearing from posters who can identify other investments that meet these criteria.

percy
09-07-2013, 07:32 AM
Not exactly a great record.Raised something like $1 per share.NTA now 89cents?
That is not a good "funds under management record."
Maybe the SP discount to NTA is a true indicator.
Avoid.

kiora
09-07-2013, 08:19 AM
PIEFUNDS :Thanks for your earlier tip Lizard :)

Billy Boy
09-07-2013, 11:04 AM
Not exactly a great record.Raised something like $1 per share.NTA now 89cents?
That is not a good "funds under management record."
Maybe the SP discount to NTA is a true indicator.
Avoid.
Avoid ??? really !!!
I have a 6 figure holding here, returning 9%+ (pie), at 20% dis to NTA I Feel quite secure.
Read their balance sheet. They dont have any debt etc.... Doing a steady buyback etc.
The Great "Checker uppera", Do they answer your emails... Ans., Yes. And on one occasion
they rang me with an explanation.
" Maybe the SP discount to NTA is a true indicator."
No it's not. But the fundamentals are. The SP can stay as low as it likes coz I love to
accumulate at these levels.
Cheers BB;)

percy
09-07-2013, 11:36 AM
MLN listed in October/November 2007.NTA at time was .9721 cents, and the SP was about the same..
Now nearly 6 years later the NTA is 89cents,and the SP is 73 cents.
In the meantime look what other companies' share price have done; EBO from $4.82 to $9.60,TUA from $1.12 to $1.80,POT from $6.76 to $14,RYM from $2.07 to $6.76,SKL from.96 to $1.38.
While MLN SP has gone from .97cents to .73cents.
They have destroyed shareholders wealth.Your money is better invested elsewhere to obtain dividends and SP growth.
I repeat avoid MLN,as they are a serial under performer.

CJ
09-07-2013, 11:58 AM
MLN listed in October/November 2007.NTA at time was .9721 cents, and the SP was about the same..
Now nearly 6 years later the NTA is 89cents,and the SP is 73 cents.
In the meantime look what other companies' share price have done; EBO from $4.82 to $9.60,TUA from $1.12 to $1.80,POT from $6.76 to $14,RYM from $2.07 to $6.76,SKL from.96 to $1.38.
While MLN SP has gone from .97cents to .73cents.
They have destroyed shareholders wealth.Your money is better invested elsewhere to obtain dividends and SP growth.
I repeat avoid MLN,as they are a serial under performer.You should have thrown XRo in just for fun.

The constant dividend masks their performance. Unlike normal companies, the dividend is not paid from income but is a set amount, regardless of income or asset value.