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QOH
16-10-2007, 05:55 PM
Geneva Finance plans to freeze investments until 2008

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By NZPA
Tuesday 16th October 2007

Finance company Geneva Finance said today it is no longer taking deposits, and will ask investors for a moratorium on all investments until April 2008.

A lack of confidence in the sector, and a ratings downgrade and negative comments by credit rating agency Standard & Poor's, had hurt the company's investment position, said Geneva chief executive Shaun Riley.

"The board and management of Geneva, in consultation with our trustee, have decided to act prudently by requesting the moratorium," Riley said.

"This will allow the company the time to stabilise its investment position, and focus on negotiating a significant debt and equity transaction that would secure the long term future of the company and protects all investors' interests."

The company was confident of maintaining its $50 million line of credit from the Royal Bank of Scotland, which S&P has said was crucial to Geneva's future.

Last week, Geneva said it had cut back the number of car dealers it dealt with, and admitted it was not lending at normal levels.

Today, Riley said the company remained profitable with strong operating cash flows and a "significant" excess of assets over liabilities.

The company had told the Securities Commission it was no longer taking deposits. All investments made since Thursday have been placed in trust and will be returned to investors this week.

Geneva planned to extend all classes of investment maturities by six months, pay interest on all investments monthly during the period, and continue to maintain business operations, trading and lending.

Geneva, which mainly offers hire purchase for consumer goods and cars, personal and small business loans, will hold a meeting for investors to vote on its proposal.

The company would be monitored by a third party on behalf of the trustee, Covenant Trustee, to ensure compliance with the terms of the moratorium.

According to KPMG's survey of financial institutions, Geneva was the 32nd-ranked finance company in 2006 by size with assets of $141m and debt securities of $127m plus subordinated debt of $9.8m.

Its most recent prospectus showed that at March 31, it had secured stock of $17.5m, debentures of $112.7m, and unsecured deposits of $8m. Loans had grown to $171.2m from $141.6m in 2006.

Geneva is owned by Finance Investments Holdings, which in turn is half owned by three prominent Auckland property developers, Peter Francis, Gary Hitchcock and Nigel Burton. The three own preference shares, which may rank above ordinary shares, equivalent to another 35 percent of the total shareholding.

Ten finance companies have collapsed in the past 18 months, including seven this year as the main local effect of a global credit crunch.

After Geneva's statement, Standard & Poor's said it had lowered its ratings to the default-level D from B-, and lowered the rating on sister company Quest Insurance Group to CC with a negative outlook from CCC+.

S&P also warned that if investors rejected Geneva's proposals, the trustee was likely to proceed with enforcement actions.

"A payment default has occurred with Geneva's nonpayment of debenture redemptions upon the due date. Under these circumstances, the only available course of action to Standard & Poor's is to lower the long-term counterparty credit rating on Geneva to 'D'," Standard & Poor's director Gavin Gunning said.

However, the ratings may improve it investors vote in favour of Geneva's proposals.

upside_umop
16-10-2007, 06:16 PM
Today, Riley said the company remained profitable with strong operating cash flows and a "significant" excess of assets over liabilities.

The company had told the Securities Commission it was no longer taking deposits. All investments made since Thursday have been placed in trust and will be returned to investors this week.



hehe if they had too many assets, would they not want to take on liabilities...ie BANK DEPOSITS?

minimoke
16-10-2007, 06:26 PM
Geneva Finance plans to freeze investments until 2008

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...The company was confident of maintaining its $50 million line of credit from the Royal Bank of Scotland, which S&P has said was crucial to Geneva's future...



Didn't we see the exact same words from FTX about the ANZ?

QOH
16-10-2007, 06:32 PM
I bet they don't tell us how much has been invested since Thursday. I suspect a big fat zero. You'd have to have been on another planet for the last few weeks to invest or reinvest in Geneva.

Dr_Who
17-10-2007, 05:30 AM
The rot is not over yet.

The Doctor
17-10-2007, 06:00 AM
sure Peter Francis ex Chase ,wont lose much!Petrovich....Francis...anyone else from 'class of 87'!

Arbitrage
02-11-2007, 01:19 PM
I bet they don't tell us how much has been invested since Thursday. I suspect a big fat zero. You'd have to have been on another planet for the last few weeks to invest or reinvest in Geneva.


Interestingly its retail shop was open in the Onehunga Mall in Auckland last weekend.

Billy Boy
04-11-2007, 09:48 AM
Saturday November 3, 07:34 AM
Geneva Finance urged to front up on finances
Geneva Finance is being accused of not providing investors with enough information on its financial position.

The finance company is proposing a six month moratorium on repaying investors, and a meeting is set down for Monday to discuss it.

Consumers Institute chief Sue Chetwin, says there has been a lack of disclosure of the company's financial position. She says investors attending the meeting need to be able to decide if Geneva can trade its way out of the situation.

BB

zac
05-11-2007, 02:00 PM
I believe a direct comparison can be made between the sub-prime mortgage crisis in the US and the collapse of finance Co's in NZ. The construction of tract housing in the US built up a momentum that could not be supported by demand unless easy finance was given to high risk borrowers; remembering of course that the promoters of construction and finance were using other people's money; taken from sucker investors who had bought bonds not knowing the level of risk they were exposed to. In NZ we have a direct parallel in the financing and selling of Japanese imported cars. There is a gross oversupply of product (thousand parked around Auckland ) that can only be sold if easy finance is provided.
Whether it be sub-prime mortgages or imported second hand cars the market will eventually expose the risk for what it really is; a large number of the loans cannot and will not be repaid. The commission agents will disappear and the bond holders will take the fall. This does not mean the end of financial markets; it is a correction in response to the cynical manipulation of a market by people willing to waste other people's money in pursuit of their own commissions.

wsheridan2
07-04-2008, 02:14 PM
Anyone heard what is likely to happen when Geneva's moratorium ends the end of theis month. Are we expecting and extension?

QOH
13-04-2008, 10:59 PM
I'm sure the debenture holders will be delighted to have the opportunity to buy shares in the company. Looks like receivership now.?

wsheridan2
14-04-2008, 05:37 PM
I'm sure the debenture holders will be delighted to have the opportunity to buy shares in the company. Looks like receivership now.?

I'd say a lot of people that supported the moratorium will support this.... given that they will supposedly contin ue to receive interest payments.

What I think is interesting is that the Bank of Scotland and note holders like Francis are supporting this but noone is really pointing oput that they have to as in a receivership they are lesser creditors than retail investors (well, from my reading of it that is the case).
So this is a situation where retail investors have more security than the bank and the scheme arrangers.... and maybe its worth looking very closely at exactly how much a receivership might return to the secured creditors as it might well be better than for most investirs in finance companies.

Lawso
15-04-2008, 10:48 AM
Chris Lee, who earlier said he had met with Geneva management and was quite impressed with the way they were handling the situation, has now come out in favour of receivership, rather than the recovery plan, saying it would offer investors a better chance of recovering 80-100% of their money. No one else seems to agree with him. I would personally put a lot of confidence in Northington Partners, who support the plan. I regard Northington people not only as very able but, more important, truly independent, unlike some other so-called advisers whom I won't name.

I don't care for the share purchase idea but it's important that interest payments have kept on coming and should continue, while some of investors' capital is to be drip-fed back to them. Debenture holders look like getting a better deal than note holders. With BOS prepared to hang in there and Peter Francis putting in what seems to me to be (for him) a modest amount, I think the recovery plan is the best option.

I'm not a Geneva investor but a good friend of mine is and I'm advising her to vote in favour.

Lawso
15-04-2008, 10:59 AM
Another thing in G's favour, IMO, is their clear communications with investors. I'm not close enough to know whether their disclosures have been truly "full and frank", but at the meeting I attended last year and in the documents received at the weekend the company seems to me to have set out the issues very fully and clearly so that investors are put properly in the picture. No doubt they will have a good chance to ask questions and state their views at the meeting later this month. It might be difficult to get 75% acceptance, though.

wsheridan2
15-04-2008, 12:59 PM
I, like you Lawso, am in the unenviable position of having to advise someone on this. For her the interest income is meaningful and a receivership would mean uncertainty over any income for potentially a considerable time..... so that cashflow loss has to be considered against the real possibility that the potential for a capital repayment could be further eroded if the business constinues to trade as it is at the moment.
I believe one of the ongoing issues is the ability of the company to continue to manage its loan book- especially at a time when it has had to let go of many of its staff. If it doesn't manage this well then there is likely to be further erosion of capital.... on the other hand, a receivership could see the loan book sold for a song...... anyone out there got a coin I can toss :confused:

AMR
29-04-2008, 11:18 AM
The share distribution plan has been approved.

I wonder though, how many of those who voted to approve it are planning to dump their shares the minute it lists. For the sake of everyone involved I hope the share price does not do a burgerfuel.

Lawso
29-04-2008, 03:36 PM
I've got no money in Geneva but I went to the meeting yesterday with a friend who has got quite a lot invested there. They put up a pretty convincing case for the restructuring plan and the stock holders lapped it up, as shown in the voting figures. It seems to me that they don't want a bar of receivership - even though it's the course recommended by Chris Lee and a few others and would probably return eventually a substantial slice of investors' funds - because receivership would return nothing to the shareholders. Peter Francis and a few others in management would lose all their dough because, as I understand it, the debenture holders would have a prior claim.
The astonishing thing to me was that there was absolutely no mention of Bluestone, the Aussie outfit that has been sniffing around. I think they should have been there and been invited to outline their intentions. The Geneva people reckoned they couldn't consider any other proposals before they knew the outcome of the voting but that if the restructure plan was approved any other approaches could then be considered.

Oh well, whatever their real motives, I think you have to give Geneva credit for being pretty upfront and communicating clearly and regularly with their investors. Let's hope for the sake of the many, mainly elderly investors that they manage to turn the ship around. At least they're continuing to make the interest payments on time.

andysh
16-07-2013, 01:10 PM
https://www.nzx.com/companies/GFL/announcements/238637

Been awhile since something has been posted.

whatsup
17-07-2013, 02:23 PM
Some action today, could this be the restart of a recaped finance sector which does not have too many players

whatsup
17-07-2013, 02:35 PM
Wow, Geneva rises from the grave and gets a good kickstart! I was this close to buying some at 4 cents a month back but didn't because I'm not into small caps that much anymore and DIL was looking much more positive. Whoops!

Anyone know if it deserves $16M cap or not?

Moo, DIL was a real small cap once, as were several others.

blackcap
17-07-2013, 02:49 PM
Does anyone know what the terms of the deal with Prime Asset Trust Limited is? As in they get to buy a share of a portfolio of financial receivables.... what share and how are the receivables allocated is what I am after. Because if you dig through the financials you see that Prime Asset Trust ltd is owned by related parties and those kind of deals always make me a bit wary. That said it looks like the new facility will override all that anyway.
Now the question is, can the company looking forward make a profit? Because last years operating profit did rely on approx $1m (as I read it) of impairments not being impairments anymore. Then again segmented analysis does show the new business is doing very well. May keep digging.

whatsup
17-07-2013, 03:12 PM
lol, really?!?!?!



lol ?, lol ?

whatsup
17-07-2013, 03:37 PM
lol ?, lol ?

Moo, what does lol mean ?

whatsup
17-07-2013, 04:15 PM
Laughing out loud. Us young'uns use it quite a bit these days ;)

and here I was thinking , lots of love, different strokes for different folks!

whatsup
17-07-2013, 04:17 PM
and here I was thinking , lots of love, different strokes for different folks!

The web free dictionary lists 90 different meanings for lol !

blackcap
17-07-2013, 06:19 PM
Far too much IMNSHO ... ;)

And I'm, sick of OMG and YOLO ... Damn kids! Fine on text but dumb as dirt when spoken out load!

Is my age showing ... ???

Cheers belg, I concur. Lets keep this on topic please. Normal discussions about Geneva welcome.

whatsup
19-07-2013, 10:03 AM
Yesterdays credit watch upgrade , another brick in the wall.

blackcap
19-07-2013, 08:22 PM
Moosie, what is it about this company that you like? Their future earnings potential? Or maybe the ability to get their old receivables at better than book value? (although this is expected to be tough), or is it the ever improving insurance business that they also have? Interested in your thoughts. How do you think the two new loans of $5 million from the directors and the cornerstone shareholder will be structured? I really think there is some potential here but there are still a few skeletons that I would like clarified or cleaned up before committing.

blackcap
19-07-2013, 10:06 PM
Fair call. The fact they managed to get into a position where a major bank would extend credit of $30m is a huge plus for me. That in itself shows a lot of faith. Also their lending portfolio seems less risky now that they are lending a lot of smaller loans to more people. The risk is spread and arguably its hard to default on a car loan. (Or harder)

whatsup
28-07-2013, 10:23 AM
Fair call. The fact they managed to get into a position where a major bank would extend credit of $30m is a huge plus for me. That in itself shows a lot of faith. Also their lending portfolio seems less risky now that they are lending a lot of smaller loans to more people. The risk is spread and arguably its hard to default on a car loan. (Or harder)

Interesting 1/4 page article in the Sunday Star Times today, IMHO Westpac wouldnt have advanced Geneva $30,000,000.00 if they didnt think that there was a positive future, it appears that they(WEstpac) are happy to move into that 3rd tiered lender space which augures well the their rebuild, again another brick in the wall, time to take a posituon as it appears to me that the worst is behind them.

Major von Tempsky
28-07-2013, 08:24 PM
Considered buying some today until I researched their capital structure.
The two for three options (options are non transferable on sale of shares) exercise at 8cps in October 2015 effectively kills any share appreciation until after that date and puts a huge dampener on trading.

blackcap
29-07-2013, 07:33 AM
Major, I disagree. My figures show that there are about 37.4 million of those options versus 280 million shares. Hardly dilutionary I would have thought.

percy
29-07-2013, 11:13 AM
What is their code,and where are they quoted?

whatsup
29-07-2013, 11:35 AM
What is their code,and where are they quoted?



GLF on the AX.

Cool Bear
29-07-2013, 11:51 AM
GLF on the AX.
Percy, I am sure Whatsup meant to type GFL.

percy
29-07-2013, 11:59 AM
Percy, I am sure Whatsup meant to type GFL.

I am sure he did.GFL works so thanks.
We need to catch up again soon.Maybe see you at HNZ agm whenever that is,or Ryman on Wednesday afternoon.

whatsup
29-07-2013, 12:38 PM
I am sure he did.GFL works so thanks.
We need to catch up again soon.Maybe see you at HNZ agm whenever that is,or Ryman on Wednesday afternoon.

GFL (dummy me ) daah!!!

Snow Leopard
29-07-2013, 01:09 PM
Major, I disagree. My figures show that there are about 37.4 million of those options versus 280 million shares. Hardly dilutionary I would have thought.

Much as I hate to be siding with the Major, but there are 12,500,000 $0.05 options and 142,434,000 $0.08 options which can be exercised in 2015 according to the 2013 Full Year report.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

blackcap
29-07-2013, 01:51 PM
Much as I hate to be siding with the Major, but there are 12,500,000 $0.05 options and 142,434,000 $0.08 options which can be exercised in 2015 according to the 2013 Full Year report.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Thanks Paper Tiger, I stand corrected. I knew about the .05 options but was remiss with the .08 options. I had done some research as to the recent restructuring and got my figures from there without consulting the 2013 report. That does change the complextion on things. THat said it doesn't stop the shareprice getting to 8 cents and that would still be a 50% gain :)

Geez they did a good job of hiding this in the report. If by intent or not is debatable but its these kinds of things that I find unattractive. They fudged the wording too... "for every 3 new shares issued the company issued 2 share options".... where earlier we read that for every new share subscribed in the rights issue 2 options would be provided. So which is it? But yes there are 140m options on 280m shares. Not totally dilutionary but a bit. However it is at 8 cents and not something stupid like 3 cents so there is hope.

whatsup
29-07-2013, 02:41 PM
Thanks Paper Tiger, I stand corrected. I knew about the .05 options but was remiss with the .08 options. I had done some research as to the recent restructuring and got my figures from there without consulting the 2013 report. That does change the complextion on things. THat said it doesn't stop the shareprice getting to 8 cents and that would still be a 50% gain :)

Geez they did a good job of hiding this in the report. If by intent or not is debatable but its these kinds of things that I find unattractive. They fudged the wording too... "for every 3 new shares issued the company issued 2 share options".... where earlier we read that for every new share subscribed in the rights issue 2 options would be provided. So which is it? But yes there are 140m options on 280m shares. Not totally dilutionary but a bit. However it is at 8 cents and not something stupid like 3 cents so there is hope.

Dont forget that at the time of the subscribers fronting up with their cash that the company still could have gone tits up and their cash along with all shareholders cash would have gone, I guess the oppies were the sweetner that clinched the deal, generous never the less.

blackcap
29-07-2013, 03:38 PM
Actually I have gone back and reiterate that there are only 37,449,771 options 2015 at 8 cents outstanding. I was flummoxed by figures presented by others and now see what has happened. That 140k figure is a $ figure and the options were ascribed a value of .375cents. 37,449,771 multiplied by .375 cents gives us $140,436 ergo puzzle solved. So the dilutionary factor is a non issue. Even if there were 140m options it still would not be dilutionary as the share price is lower than the exercise price. Unlike DPC.

Snow Leopard
29-07-2013, 05:35 PM
Actually I have gone back and reiterate that there are only 37,449,771 options 2015 at 8 cents outstanding. I was flummoxed by figures presented by others and now see what has happened. That 140k figure is a $ figure and the options were ascribed a value of .375cents. 37,449,771 multiplied by .375 cents gives us $140,436 ergo puzzle solved. So the dilutionary factor is a non issue. Even if there were 140m options it still would not be dilutionary as the share price is lower than the exercise price. Unlike DPC.

So I have gone back into the annual report and found one of the errors in it.

It would appear that there are actually about 37,500,000 8c options but the tables in Note 34 says there are 140,434,000.

So some idiot of an accountant appears to have worked out a nominal market value for the 8c options (why? what is the point of that?), multiplied it by 1,000 and used that figure as the number of options in Note 34.

The quoted number of 5c options 12,500,000 appears to be confirmed from other parts the report, but of course this may be another myth.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger.

blackcap
29-07-2013, 06:03 PM
Its a bit of a worry when you can't even rely on the figures in the Annual Report. The only reason I doubted this figure was that I have gone and read every single stock exchange announcement from April 2012 till now and only came up with 37 m odd options and I knew there were none prior. So when I saw the earlier comment from Major I was really flummoxed. Its all clear now but the nominal value attribution makes no sense to me either Paper Tiger.

percy
29-07-2013, 07:10 PM
So is the capital;
280,872,249 shares.
12,500,000 options at 0.05cents convert 2015.
37,449,771 options at 0.08 cents covert 2015.

Snow Leopard
29-07-2013, 07:35 PM
So is the capital;
280,872,249 shares.
12,500,000 options at 0.05cents convert 2015.
37,449,771 options at 0.08 cents covert 2015.

This is what I currently believe to be true. :mellow:

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

percy
29-07-2013, 07:54 PM
Thanks Paper Tiger, I was getting a bit mixed up.!

blackcap
29-07-2013, 08:23 PM
So is the capital;
280,872,249 shares.
12,500,000 options at 0.05cents convert 2015.
37,449,771 options at 0.08 cents covert 2015.

That is also what I make it Percy. Major got me confused and got me going over my figures again. Either way as the options are out of the money they are not dilutionary so to me it makes little difference how many there are. THe less though the better. Its a pity these options are not trade able on the market.

whatsup
31-07-2013, 04:45 PM
300k plus shares sold on close today after the seller dropped his/her asking price .01

Major von Tempsky
02-08-2013, 08:55 PM
[PDF]
Simplified Disclosure Prospectus - Geneva Finance

Here's the Google search result my comment was based on....


www.genevafinance.co.nz/.../Rights%20issue%20SDP%20v10%20Final...‎



Oct 15, 2012 - for every 3 new Shares subscribed for, Geneva will issue 2 Options to subscribe for new Shares (no payment is made for the Options).

Grimy
03-08-2013, 09:02 AM
They've paid out the last outstanding amount (less the amount that was converted to shares a few years back as part of the moratorium) they owed.
It's taken a while, but if all my other bad finance company investments that went west in the last 5 years had paid me back most of my capital - and with 10% interest on the outstanding balance in the interim I'd be pretty happy (and a lot better off).
Now I just hope they can get the share price up to about 35~40c and all will be forgiven.

blackcap
03-08-2013, 09:51 AM
They've paid out the last outstanding amount (less the amount that was converted to shares a few years back as part of the moratorium) they owed.
It's taken a while, but if all my other bad finance company investments that went west in the last 5 years had paid me back most of my capital - and with 10% interest on the outstanding balance in the interim I'd be pretty happy (and a lot better off).
Now I just hope they can get the share price up to about 35~40c and all will be forgiven.

That may take a little while Grimy. But what is your weighted average cost of your shares? Correct me if I am wrong but if you were a debenture holder you got some shares at 36 cents and some at 5 cents? Geneva have indeed done a lot better than most if not all that failed. Even DPC debenture holders are still only sitting on about 70 cents return total with no interest.

janner
03-08-2013, 08:13 PM
Kudo's where kudo's are due.. The team at Geneva more than kept their word..

Grimy
03-08-2013, 08:49 PM
When the moratorium was agreed we had to convert some of the capital owed into shares at 36c. I see I have my avg written down as 36.49 cents. Would have to dig out my paperwork to check. Basically I wrote the share side of things off a long time a go.

janner
03-08-2013, 09:01 PM
When the moratorium was agreed we had to convert some of the capital owed into shares at 36c. I see I have my avg written down as 36.49 cents. Would have to dig out my paperwork to check. Basically I wrote the share side of things off a long time a go.

Averaging down is not to be recommended .. In this particular case.. With all things being equal.. Geneva have more than fulfilled their promises..

Worth a punt IMO..

Disc.. Not Holding..

Grimy
04-08-2013, 10:04 AM
Checked this morning. The original shares we had to take as part of the deal were 36c, and then there was a rights issue last year at about 3c. Brought my average price to 30 cents. I wouldn't usually average down on something like this, but the rights shares cost a total of $14.10...........

blackcap
04-08-2013, 05:01 PM
Checked this morning. The original shares we had to take as part of the deal were 36c, and then there was a rights issue last year at about 3c. Brought my average price to 30 cents. I wouldn't usually average down on something like this, but the rights shares cost a total of $14.10...........

Cheers Grimy, thanks for the update. I do note the register has 40 shareholders with over 1 million shares so that my be quite a few disaffected ex-note and debenture holders.

Major von Tempsky
06-08-2013, 04:14 PM
Eh bien Blackcap and other Geneva enthusiastic boosters...a few posts ago on here, GFL was crossing at 6cps, then 5cps and now a seller is offering at 4.9cps and the seller at 5cps seems to have an unlimited supply of GFL for sale - so large that the DirectBroking sharetrade depth app is unable to show how many cos it's too big!

Where's the bottom? Is there a bottom?
Persuaded by your eloquence and the apparently long term and single minded recovery attitude of the GFL Board and management I bought a few at 5cps ....should I now regret it?

blackcap
06-08-2013, 04:19 PM
Hi major,

I think you will be allright, but like I said (or did I; its what I have been thinking) there is no hurry to pick these up. Plenty of sellers out there who got the shares allocated at 5 cents per share, could be disaffected and thus the large seller at 5 cents. Long term on a PE basis and forward looking, I think 5 cents is an ok entry point. But buyer beware.

Major von Tempsky
20-08-2013, 12:27 PM
very strange....very strange....
Why has GFL twice made an announcement today reiterating under continuous disclosure that it doesn't have any news that the sharemarket hasn't had already?
Only small (by value) parcels have traded in the last few days and the price movement hasn't been dramatic?
Why is the NZX querying GFL? What's going on?

andysh
20-08-2013, 12:30 PM
? They seem to make a disclosure every month is relation to this?

whatsup
24-09-2013, 03:46 PM
Did anyone attend the GEneva meeting today ?

Major von Tempsky
25-09-2013, 11:43 AM
Nope, and if you read the report absolutely nothing happened - apart from the point that everything was carried unanimously except the re-election of the retiring director who was only re-elected overwhelmingly ;-)
He'd better pull his socks up.
It's good to see they've all got their heads down and working hard.
I was a bit surprised to see they have 2 addresses, one for service and another one. I would have thought they would economise on that when they closed the branches.
Just console yourself that GFL is the best kept secret on the NZ sharemarket and will be for a long time yet :-)
From regularly consulting the depth table there is still a significant overhang of embittered older investors who want out (of their shares) at practically any price. Either they see the grave yawning imminently before them or they are unable to read and understand analyst's reports :-)

Beagle
14-10-2013, 05:40 PM
Warning About Geneva.

My wife and I were heavily invested in this company since 2006 firstly as secured debenture holders and later as unsecured subordinated note holders. We were invited to transfer our unsubordinated noted into secured investments in their side company Stellar Collections.

1. Stellar collections was a seperate company that was set up ostensibly to collect bad and doubtful debtors transferred from Geneva.
2. They marketed this company as a specalist debt collection company and alledged that it was headed up by an ex specalist fraud squad police inspector..we found out he quit very shortly after we were "induced" to invest in Stellar.
3. Stellar was used as a company to wash up as many doubtful and bad debts as it possibly could fund and there are extremly serious questions about whether these "assets" were transferred into this company at fair and open market value. In most cases past due and seriously overdue, (read basically deliquint debtors), were sold to this side company at full price thus cleansing Geneva of as many problematic debtors as was possible to achieve.
4. Geneva's net profit was in my opinion overstated using this "cleansing" methodology in the lead up to the global financial crisis.
5. In my opinion this company has never made any money if you look at all the concessions shareholders have provided it with and the loss of value in the side company Stellar. I contend that early year profits were in fact illusionary in that inadequate provisions were made for bad and doubtful debtors.
6. The company does not have a proven business model, in fact, in my opinion, quite the opposite.

Mr Oconnell is paid extremly handsomly to run this minnow finance company, yes he has worked hard to keep its head above water but he was activly involved in the above mentioned financial "window dressing".

We referred Geneva finance and its Directors to the Securities Commission and worked with them at length regarding their investigation which ran for a considerable period of time. In the end for reasons best known to themselves the Commission decided not to prosecute. I know the investigator doing the hard yards was extremly disappointed with this executive decision.

David Oconnell was activly involved in the above mentioned transfers at dubious valuation into Stellar. There is a heck of a lot more to this than meets the eye. If you read the Northington Partners report at length you'll find they relied to a large extent on management representations in making their assessment of fair value.

Major von Tempsky
16-03-2014, 12:25 PM
Bit of volume lately - suppose it's only 3 months until what should be a much better result?

whatsup
03-04-2014, 04:43 PM
Major Cash issue to bolster up the balance sheet, 11 for 18 at .03 totally underwritten which it needs to be to succeed , if this doesn't do it I don't know whats next-- positive ideas please.

Major von Tempsky
04-04-2014, 07:07 AM
Um, waal it will be interesting to look at the report that comes out in June and look at how profitable the insurance and new business arms have become and whether the old business now has an end in sight. Maybe the prospectus will give us a clue.

The article by Rob Stock in July last year said the shares were valued at 6 cents but this 3 cent per share issue will lower that on average. On the other hand the cash from the issue will strengthen the balance sheet and maybe raise the credit rating when that comes out again later this year.

Or you could view this as a means of dealing to that ratbag ex-director (news media of court proceedings in Jan or Feb this year)who while at GFL borrowed a whole lot of money from GFL and gave it to his trust which then bought a stack of GFL shares. He refused to repay the money and is being put into bankruptcy by GFL. A few cash issues by GFL at low prices will deflate him nicely. Pity for the other minor shareholders who can't keep up though.
It's totally underwritten by the largest shareholder Federal Pacific - are you taking up your rights?

The government, even ComCom could find something useful to do here for a change, should close down the swindling avenue that the ex-director has made use of.

whatsup
05-05-2014, 01:46 PM
Major Cash issue to bolster up the balance sheet, 11 for 18 at .03 totally underwritten which it needs to be to succeed , if this doesn't do it I don't know whats next-- positive ideas please.

SO who is taking up their issue shares that close tomorrow?

Grimy
05-05-2014, 08:13 PM
Me. Another $53.34 into the pot...........

Beagle
06-05-2014, 02:45 PM
Don't waste your money. Dreadful company that's really not being run for the benifet of shareholders at all. Just look at what senior management are paid to run this 4th rate tin pot finance company.

whatsup
06-05-2014, 07:55 PM
Don't waste your money. Dreadful company that's really not being run for the benifet of shareholders at all. Just look at what senior management are paid to run this 4th rate tin pot finance company.

Roger, can you fill us in please.

Okebw
06-05-2014, 10:17 PM
Only the managing director is paid an overly exorbitant amount. The other directors/senior management remuneration seems reasonable or on the low side if anything.

Not that this company is reasonable in the slightest


http://www.genevafinance.co.nz/upload/report_files/Signed%20GFNZ%20Group%20Financial%20Statement%20-%2031%20March%202013%20With%20Audit%20Report%20-%20FINAL.pdf

Beagle
07-05-2014, 08:51 AM
Roger, can you fill us in please.

If I had time I could write many pages on this company. Just look at their track record of "profitability".
One excuse after another, year after year after year why they can't make money.
Truth is they've never made money, only destroyed shareholder wealth. Profits in the early years were an illusion and if bad and doubtful debts had been provided for properly from the outset losses would have always been declared.

Don't you think its significant that they're doing a capital raising before announcing the annual result.
The business is coming right....YEAH RIGHT someone hand me another Tui before this gives me yet another headache.
Face it people, the business model of this company simply doesn't work.

All the more a disgrace because the former CEO was formerly the general manager of Instant Finance, (a company that made profits throughtout the GFC and still does) before he left to start this fisaco.

I wonder if they're coming up with new ways to transfer bad and doubtful debts around within divisions or externally from the company to conceal even more losses. THIS COMPANY IS A COMPLETE FIASCO, sorry that's all i have time for.

whatsup
07-05-2014, 12:18 PM
If I had time I could write many pages on this company. Just look at their track record of "profitability".
One excuse after another, year after year after year why they can't make money.
Truth is they've never made money, only destroyed shareholder wealth. Profits in the early years were an illusion and if bad and doubtful debts had been provided for properly from the outset losses would have always been declared.

Don't you think its significant that they're doing a capital raising before announcing the annual result.
The business is coming right....YEAH RIGHT someone hand me another Tui before this gives me yet another headache.
Face it people, the business model of this company simply doesn't work.

All the more a disgrace because the former CEO was formerly the general manager of Instant Finance, (a company that made profits throughtout the GFC and still does) before he left to start this fisaco.

I wonder if they're coming up with new ways to transfer bad and doubtful debts around within divisions or externally from the company to conceal even more losses. THIS COMPANY IS A COMPLETE FIASCO, sorry that's all i have time for.

Roger, with this cash issue and it being underwritten Im picking that this shareholder will be pushing Geneva in the direction that it needs to head in order for it to achieve the necessary turnaround--- imho don't hold your breath but change is under foot.

Beagle
07-05-2014, 01:57 PM
Does a leopard change its spots...

Major von Tempsky
24-05-2014, 03:02 PM
Well Roger the Dodger et al - have a look at the latest couple of disclosure notices, 2 Directors buying up shares in advance of the results in mid June.
Don't forget that O'Connell is a turnround specialist who successfully turned around Farmers Finance.
You need to segregate your analysis of GFL into 2 periods (a) formation/Global Financial Crash when nearly all NZ Finance companies went broke (b) the last couple of years when GFL has acquired a respectable cornerstone shareholder, paid off its debts, achieved a reasonable credit rating and now this year will get a better one due to this issue. It's now come to terms with its legacy low income debtors and has a profitable operation in finance and insurance after writing off its legacy low income debtors. It also has a very low overheads op, 1 office and everything done over the Internet or in car dealers offices. Westpac are not mugs enough to lend $30 million to GFL mid 2103 without careful analysis and discussions.

Beagle
24-05-2014, 04:13 PM
You mean like the careful analysis and discussions the Bank of Scotland had before it loaned money to Geneva and all the directors who've bought shares over the years before and lost a significant portion of their investment all while under Oconnell's expert leadership ?

Major von Tempsky
24-05-2014, 05:40 PM
You're not segregating the periods. The second period starts from the end of the moratorium when all the debts were paid off - sometime last year if you look at the announcements. It was such a mess it has taken quite a time to clean up, just as Farmers Finance did. The Director who borrowed from GFL, put the shares into his family trust and then refused to pay it back deserved to lose his money.
You have an open window to slag off until about June 14 when I suspect a careful reading will show GFL is turning the corner.
Enjoy your window.

Beagle
25-05-2014, 11:49 AM
That's provided you don't have any qualms about the veracity of the financial results. The leader you seem to hold in such high esteem was activly involved in transferring millions of dollars of bad and doubtful debts into a side company at full value to ring-fence losses in that collection company and in so doing make Geneva's financial results look less diabolical than they really were. That was okay according to the Company's auditor at the time which was Staples Rodway from memory..still the same auditor ?
They still have a number of different divisions...watch for transfers of receiveables within different devisions to delay recognition of on-going losses and write-downs in their so called new ledger. But really, I have limited time and am more interested in making money than trying to warn off others from losing it and much of what I could write would lead to an almost inevitable court case with Geneva so you're on your own my friend. Good luck, you'll need it.

whatsup
26-05-2014, 10:20 AM
You're not segregating the periods. The second period starts from the end of the moratorium when all the debts were paid off - sometime last year if you look at the announcements. It was such a mess it has taken quite a time to clean up, just as Farmers Finance did. The Director who borrowed from GFL, put the shares into his family trust and then refused to pay it back deserved to lose his money.
You have an open window to slag off until about June 14 when I suspect a careful reading will show GFL is turning the corner.
Enjoy your window.

MvT, I see you mentioned 14 June as a water shed date, I was at the last general meeting - which O Ked the rights issue and in the general preamble which the COE gave a update which said that the next ann could be a bad one as it would include all of the legacy issues but from then on out the company is hoping to have turned the corner.
I have somewhat faith in the future as Im sure that the underwriter has gone through the books with a fine toothed comb and unearthed all aspects of the previous mess and taken steps to put them right, if not what has the last few years been about.
IMHO we should have seen the worst of the mess and GLF could be a sleeping turn around enterprise.

Beagle
02-07-2014, 04:14 PM
MvT, I see you mentioned 14 June as a water shed date, I was at the last general meeting - which O Ked the rights issue and in the general preamble which the COE gave a update which said that the next ann could be a bad one as it would include all of the legacy issues but from then on out the company is hoping to have turned the corner.
I have somewhat faith in the future as Im sure that the underwriter has gone through the books with a fine toothed comb and unearthed all aspects of the previous mess and taken steps to put them right, if not what has the last few years been about.
IMHO we should have seen the worst of the mess and GLF could be a sleeping turn around enterprise.

$4m loss and more talk about old loan legacy issues causing ongoing pain. Cash issue ostensibly did nothing other than prop up what is clearly a flawed business model as previously warned by this poster.
Talk of leveraging Stellar Collections skills for the future. What skills ? Are you kidding me !! That company has been re-capitalised more times than I've had hot dinners.
It really is time to put this old dog out of its misery and stop kidding poor hapless shareholders there's really any prospect of ever turning a sustainable profit. This company is starting to look like nothing more than an employment agency for executives who can't get a job elsewhere. Books aren't even audited so there could / probably will be further losses to be declared if the Auditors do a thorough job.
Plenty on offer at 2.5 cents after a recent cash issue at 3 cents almost says it all other than to add this stock completely re-defines the meaning of the term "penny dreadful"

Major von Tempsky
02-07-2014, 08:47 PM
As always, the truth may lie halfway inbetween. I'm not moving a muscle until I've read, and hopefully understood any hidden messages, of the December result.
Last year they were crowing about a ratings upgrade from Standard and Poors "On 17 July 2013 Standard & Poor's Rating Services placed GFNZ Group Ltd.
(GFNZ) and GFNZ's wholly owned insurance subsidiary, Quest Insurance Group
Ltd. ratings on credit watch positive on potential new funding arrangements. " I wonder how that relates to the recent announcement that GFL is waving away a "financial strength rating"... "because they were not seeking deposits from the public". And presumably because it would cost money, take up a lot of staff time answering awkward questions. In one way I'd quite like to get some at 2.1 cps to score off Federal Pacific who have just paid 3cps but its not worth spending any more just for this petty point. I have been hoping they would do a Dorchester Finance if anyone saw the Sunday Star Times article about their amazing turnaround. Do GFL have an ambition to go for a financial strength rating in the future? How can you be a full blown expanding functioning finance company if you are not taking deposits from the public? Is it David O'Connell's and Federal Pacific's ambition to just stagnate? We need to be told (a) all the legacy issues have been put to bed (b) what the vision (if any) for Geneva's future is?

noodles
02-07-2014, 10:07 PM
How can you be a full blown expanding functioning finance company if you are not taking deposits from the public? Is it David O'Connell's and Federal Pacific's ambition to just stagnate? We need to be told (a) all the legacy issues have been put to bed (b) what the vision (if any) for Geneva's future is?
I don't think DPC don't take deposits either

whatsup
31-07-2014, 03:27 PM
As always, the truth may lie halfway inbetween. I'm not moving a muscle until I've read, and hopefully understood any hidden messages, of the December result.
Last year they were crowing about a ratings upgrade from Standard and Poors "On 17 July 2013 Standard & Poor's Rating Services placed GFNZ Group Ltd.
(GFNZ) and GFNZ's wholly owned insurance subsidiary, Quest Insurance Group
Ltd. ratings on credit watch positive on potential new funding arrangements. " I wonder how that relates to the recent announcement that GFL is waving away a "financial strength rating"... "because they were not seeking deposits from the public". And presumably because it would cost money, take up a lot of staff time answering awkward questions. In one way I'd quite like to get some at 2.1 cps to score off Federal Pacific who have just paid 3cps but its not worth spending any more just for this petty point. I have been hoping they would do a Dorchester Finance if anyone saw the Sunday Star Times article about their amazing turnaround. Do GFL have an ambition to go for a financial strength rating in the future? How can you be a full blown expanding functioning finance company if you are not taking deposits from the public? Is it David O'Connell's and Federal Pacific's ambition to just stagnate? We need to be told (a) all the legacy issues have been put to bed (b) what the vision (if any) for Geneva's future is?

So what did you make of this what with todays loss, could this be the last of the room cleaning or is it back down hill again from here ?

Major von Tempsky
31-07-2014, 06:21 PM
Encouraging, as far as it goes. I don't think the loss is a cash loss but a loss from writing off Old Business defaulters. It talks about the Old Business, which was a $5.5 million loss, becoming a profit next time. And there are some statements of progress and growth ambition this time whereas I was starting to get the feeling that the rights issue was Federal Pacific having to go through the motions to support Geneva to avoid getting in bad odour with lenders itself. I note that Fed Pacific's loan $6 million has been converted to shares in the rights issue which gives Fed Pacific more of an incentive to start pushing future profits to shareholders. I was afraid they might just siphon off the profits through loan agreements.

I was afraid that the lending program of taking up the Westpac $30 mill facility had stalled but it seems to have resumed after the rights issue and at about the same monthly rate which is good. What happens when the $30 mill is used up? Another rights issue and expanded Westpac facility? Do they intend to increase Fed Pacific's 57% shareholding to 90% through continuing rights issues and then do a cheap compulsory acquisition of us remaining shareholders?
I'd like to see a balance sheet detailed enough to show how much Old Business loans remain to be expunged and some words from O'Connell about timing on that. I would hope that the defaulters on the Old Business have now got a rotten credit record and can't borrow again.
Obviously some people have taken heart already - 2 el cheapo purchases today.
What's your take?

whatsup
31-07-2014, 08:50 PM
Encouraging, as far as it goes. I don't think the loss is a cash loss but a loss from writing off Old Business defaulters. It talks about the Old Business, which was a $5.5 million loss, becoming a profit next time. And there are some statements of progress and growth ambition this time whereas I was starting to get the feeling that the rights issue was Federal Pacific having to go through the motions to support Geneva to avoid getting in bad odour with lenders itself. I note that Fed Pacific's loan $6 million has been converted to shares in the rights issue which gives Fed Pacific more of an incentive to start pushing future profits to shareholders. I was afraid they might just siphon off the profits through loan agreements.

I was afraid that the lending program of taking up the Westpac $30 mill facility had stalled but it seems to have resumed after the rights issue and at about the same monthly rate which is good. What happens when the $30 mill is used up? Another rights issue and expanded Westpac facility? Do they intend to increase Fed Pacific's 57% shareholding to 90% through continuing rights issues and then do a cheap compulsory acquisition of us remaining shareholders?
I'd like to see a balance sheet detailed enough to show how much Old Business loans remain to be expunged and some words from O'Connell about timing on that. I would hope that the defaulters on the Old Business have now got a rotten credit record and can't borrow again.
Obviously some people have taken heart already - 2 el cheapo purchases today.
What's your take?

I to think that the worst is behind them now, its been a long road but they have survived although only through the support of Fed Pacific and Im sure that they wouldn't have coughed up lightly even though they had to support their earlier investment, must have seen a pearl or two somewhere.
The big question is can they grow their book and will it be quality this time, Westpac will surely stand beside them now that they are proving themselves and Im sure that they have a viable business model. Time will...!

Major von Tempsky
01-08-2014, 08:11 AM
Of course they will have lots of accumulated tax losses to take advantage too :-)

whatsup
01-08-2014, 08:34 AM
I to think that the worst is behind them now, its been a long road but they have survived although only through the support of Fed Pacific and Im sure that they wouldn't have coughed up lightly even though they had to support their earlier investment, must have seen a pearl or two somewhere.
The big question is can they grow their book and will it be quality this time, Westpac will surely stand beside them now that they are proving themselves and Im sure that they have a viable business model. Time will...!

and of course there are 37,448,953 November 2015 .08 oppies and 12,500,000 31 July 2015 .05 executive oppies for a total of $3,620,916 money that they could well use, Im betting that the top table will do their utmost to get these oppies in the money, it begs the question why pay .05 or .08 when you can buy the heads at .02-.025 now ?

Tony Two Gloves
08-08-2014, 11:46 AM
Interesting reading previous comments, I tend to agree with Roger that this is not a viable business. They has been a lot of movement into their vehicle dealer space of lately, Heartland's I-Finance is competing head on with Geneva with much better commissions etc, you also have Dorchester and Avanti Finance very active directly and through Finance Brokers. I also heard recently that Finance Now has come out with an instant decision dealer product so Geneva will have to fight hard if it wants a piece of the action. Now the 0.02 barrier has broken today where will the SP head now.....

Beagle
08-08-2014, 12:21 PM
You can add in GE Finance and Insurance who are currently conducting a mass marketing programme offering motor vehicle finance from 12.99%. I really don't think Mr O'Connell has any prospect of turning this around, (but is more than happy to keep collecting $300,000 plus salary while the company keeps amassing losses). Go back through all the years annual results...there's one excuse after another after another after another.... Pretty sure he saves the announcement on a word processor and just changes a few words and dates each year ands keeps sending out the same B.S. claiming they're coming right. YEAH RIGHT, hand me another Tui. Time to shoot this flea ridden dog.

People please understand this. When they have bad and extremely doubtful debtors, (of which there are always plenty because they're forced to lend to people who've been rejected by mainstream finance companies), they go through a balance sheet cleansing exercise each year just before balance date and hide losses by selling these bad debtors off to "Stellar" collections at full price and then surprise, surprise "Stellar" collections reports massive losses in the following year(s) because their receivables are "alleged" to be from the "old Ledger". They have been playing this game of deception for years...funny how losses from the old ledger never seem to diminish...I wonder why...

whatsup
03-09-2014, 01:29 PM
and of course there are 37,448,953 November 2015 .08 oppies and 12,500,000 31 July 2015 .05 executive oppies for a total of $3,620,916 money that they could well use, Im betting that the top table will do their utmost to get these oppies in the money, it begs the question why pay .05 or .08 when you can buy the heads at .02-.025 now ?

A little more interest lately, has the bottom passed, I think so and with the AGM this month it could be interesting address from the CEO, early buying as has produced a good return for the brace just as it has for Allied Farmers S Hers .01 up to .085 , good trading for the brave.

whatsup
22-09-2014, 11:44 AM
A little more interest lately, has the bottom passed, I think so and with the AGM this month it could be interesting address from the CEO, early buying as has produced a good return for the brace just as it has for Allied Farmers S Hers .01 up to .085 , good trading for the brave.

A little more movement with slight price increase , S P has now bettered the recent issue price and with the meeting before this months end could be very interesting if any update reflects recent sp movement. one to watch imo.

Major von Tempsky
01-10-2014, 12:27 PM
Well the AGM, from the GFL report, set a new world record for being absolutely vanilla/head's down, mums the word non event. Anyone attend from here? Surely there must have been some comment even if it was only "Hey! We're still alive!" or "Hope to do better in the future, hope to have something meaningful to tell you in December" ?? Maybe David O'Connell coughed by mistake at some point or the newly re-elected Director said Thank You?

whatsup
01-10-2014, 01:57 PM
Well the AGM, from the GFL report, set a new world record for being absolutely vanilla/head's down, mums the word non event. Anyone attend from here? Surely there must have been some comment even if it was only "Hey! We're still alive!" or "Hope to do better in the future, hope to have something meaningful to tell you in December" ?? Maybe David O'Connell coughed by mistake at some point or the newly re-elected Director said Thank You?

Major, must have been an O K meeting as the S P is holding up well, if there was a bad "news " comment then surely the S P would have been torpedoed by now, Im betting that the major S Her would have wrung out all of any bad news from the company by now and we've seen the bottom at last !

whatsup
23-12-2014, 10:10 AM
Looks like that there is a floor under GFL at present, have they turned the corner, and with the major share holder underwriting the recent cash issue ( which they would not do as a charity ) there may be light at the ------- .

Major von Tempsky
23-12-2014, 01:11 PM
Seems that one of the Directors has made a share purchase and a reef fish investor has followed him in :-)

If this keeps up we'll have to have a new thread omitting the "More Bad News.." tag.

Grimy
21-02-2015, 04:33 PM
Has anyone else had a letter from Zero Commission NZ Ltd wanting to buy your shares?
I'd normally rip any of their letters up, but with the few shares I've got I'd be better off accepting their low-ball offer and saving the brokerage fee (about $8 better off!).
Or are GFL shares going to suddenly go from 3 cents to 36 cents next month??........

whatsup
12-06-2015, 01:21 PM
Turn around at last !! Company returned to profit this year and is forecasting an improvement next year again, looks like GFL is a big turn around at last after several years of losses and heart breaks. !!
Rev up 3%
Profit from ordinary activities UP 152%
After tax profit of $2.2mil vs loss last year of $4.2 Mil

whatsup
12-06-2015, 01:28 PM
Turn around at last !! Company returned to profit this year and is forecasting an improvement next year again, looks like GFL is a big turn around at last after several years of losses and heart breaks. !!
Rev up 3%
Profit from ordinary activities UP 152%
After tax profit of $2.2mil vs loss last year of $4.2 Mil

And there we go off to the races up 11 + % already, a big turn around story blooming here !!

Major von Tempsky
12-06-2015, 02:03 PM
Yep, it's all coming right at last, a reward for hanging on Whatsup. I hope Grimy didn't panic and run in March. Zero never sent me a letter....should I be insulted?
Good to see the facility has been increased from $30 mill to $36 mill and another bank has joined the party outside the facility, the banks obviously have a growing confidence in GFL. And that they are removing the insurance roadblock from insurance trading.
I note on the Depth Chart that that idiot seller of 1,000,000 shares sold out at 2.8 cps instead of hanging in for at least 3cps and that GFL has now changed from a heavy overhang of shares for sale to a heavy overhang of buyers seeking shares. Some more dogged waiting and we will really be chalking up lots more points!

noodles
12-06-2015, 02:54 PM
Turn around at last !! Company returned to profit this year and is forecasting an improvement next year again, looks like GFL is a big turn around at last after several years of losses and heart breaks. !!
Rev up 3%
Profit from ordinary activities UP 152%
After tax profit of $2.2mil vs loss last year of $4.2 Mil

WARNING: After tax profit does not equate to underlying profit as there is a tax benefit in the 2.2mil profit.

whatsup
29-06-2015, 02:48 PM
Mr Market buying ( at last ) on the recent change of fortune after 10 long years, with the up coming AGM will there be a good news story to tell .

Joshuatree
29-06-2015, 03:30 PM
Undulating life today ;three up ,five down. Get a gain there, take some off there; Rebalancing, reweighing; from foot to foot we shift; juggling;dropping the ball;picking up an IOU;feast and famine; bail out; buy a bargain......

whatsup
19-08-2015, 10:42 AM
Yep, it's all coming right at last, a reward for hanging on Whatsup. I hope Grimy didn't panic and run in March. Zero never sent me a letter....should I be insulted?
Good to see the facility has been increased from $30 mill to $36 mill and another bank has joined the party outside the facility, the banks obviously have a growing confidence in GFL. And that they are removing the insurance roadblock from insurance trading.
I note on the Depth Chart that that idiot seller of 1,000,000 shares sold out at 2.8 cps instead of hanging in for at least 3cps and that GFL has now changed from a heavy overhang of shares for sale to a heavy overhang of buyers seeking shares. Some more dogged waiting and we will really be chalking up lots more points!

Up today and over .04 for the first time in 18 months , is the worst behind them, the up coming AGM should be interesting and we await a rerating by Mr Market, its been along time between drinks and a very close call of death.
Mr Francis should be a happy man but control has passed to the Federal Pacific Group and I wonder what future plans they have ( a back door listing? ) but first the shares have to get over .08 so that the oppies are in the money and therefore a bigger capital base without going to the banks for funding for more growth, interesting times indeed !