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Rockhoundnz
17-04-2008, 10:35 AM
There's loads of so called 'educators' out there and many of them are more interested in selling their 'system' to people than they are about teaching people to trade. I spent a long time looking at the different options for learning to become a full time trader before I decided to sign up with a trading room called Puretick.com. I've been with them for almost 3 months now and I'm very happy with both the education I've received from them and the trading calls that they make. They focus on Dow Jones futures on the US market, but the information they teach about technical trading could be applied to other markets.

For those that are considering becoming a trader here's a video made Alex, the head trader and co-founder of Puretick:

http://puretick.com/video/thetruth/

The video really hammers home what it means to want to become a trader. If anyone has any questions about Puretick please feel free to email me. Cheers.

ratkin
17-04-2008, 11:49 AM
Spam alert.

AMR
17-04-2008, 11:55 AM
Rockhoundz, it's not a good look to be posting advertisements on your first post.

Rockhoundnz
17-04-2008, 01:12 PM
Sorry guys, but I'm not sure how my post constitutes an ad or, even worse, spam. As a full time trader it took me a long time on the web crawling through the many 'holy-grail merchants' out there to find a good trading mentor and I've seen loads of posts from people on other forums keen to find a mentor. I thought I'd just take the initiative of posting some useful info on a forum on my home-turf. I'm sorry to hear that you think of that as not something that's useful for other members of the forum. How else are members to find good educational services if you frown on one being mentioned? There are loads of other trading education providers out there, perhaps it would be good to hear from other people who they've had success or poor service from?

AMR
17-04-2008, 01:58 PM
Ok, sorry for accusing you of advertising:o. That's actually a reasonable video by the way, a good contrast to those other courses which give very unrealistic expectations. Why don't you tell us how you took up full-time trading?

(I'm currently researching the possibility of gap trading on the SPI...so far I'm only using $1 AUSSIE200 contracts from CMC markets)

Rockhoundnz
17-04-2008, 02:48 PM
Ok, sorry for accusing you of advertising:o. That's actually a reasonable video by the way, a good contrast to those other courses which give very unrealistic expectations. Why don't you tell us how you took up full-time trading?

(I'm currently researching the possibility of gap trading on the SPI...so far I'm only using $1 AUSSIE200 contracts from CMC markets)

Thanks AMR - and good suggestion. Actually, having thought a bit about my initial post perhaps I would have been better name this thread: "the correct way to become a full time trader" and not mention who I am learning from. I just know there are a lot of people out there who have thought about the idea of day-trading for a living, but haven't really known what that involves.

Just as Alex mentions in the video, the best way to view it is to put trading in the same basket as going to law school or med school - only you don't have to pass any exams to be allowed to start to learn to be a trader. As long as you are committed to a couple of years or more of learning before you start to make really good money and you have a reasonable amount of capital then anyone can potentially do it. In fact, what law school offers to pay you a modest income in the first year or two that you are learning? (As an interesting aside, I know of two former lawyers that are either learning to trade for a living or considering it).

For me personally, I simply quit my day job and decided trading was what I was going to do - the realism of that video (with none of the usual "you can make $1000 a day with as little as $5000" sort of garbage that you hear from most of the 'educators') told me how much commitment was required, and I have accepted that from the start. I'm now 3 months into that process - I am very much a 'newbie', but have been doing it long enough to know that the following information is true. If you'd prefer to hear the same information from an experienced trader I'm sure there are lots out there that will agree.


Here's what I would say you need if you're thinking about trading for a living (and I'm basing this on trading emini futures in the US which is my area):

1. Sufficient capital. A minimum of US$10,000, but better to be $20,000+. At the very least greater capital will mean it takes longer to blow your account which gives you more time to learn. Many of the world's best traders went bust several times before they became good traders.

Here's how long it took some smart and determined people to become profitable:

Linda Raschke - 3 years
John Carter - 4 years
Mark Fisher - 3 years
Hubert Senters - 2 years sitting by the side of an experienced trader before trading

2. A commitment and ability to sustain 1-2 years (at least) of learning without much of an income: be very suspicious of any website that claims you'll be making loads of $ in a few weeks!

3. A willingness to change your psychological view of money, risk and probability. This is probably the biggest hurdle that will cause about 90% of traders to fail. The book 'Trading in the Zone' by Mark Douglas is a great starting point to cover this stuff.

4. A good mentor. Almost all the best traders learnt from a mentor - they didn't just read a few books and do it themselves. Do your best to find someone who can teach you the skills and how to avoid the common pitfalls of trading. You might have to pay a lot for this. Some traders have spent over $100,000 on learning to trade before they became accomplished.

That's pretty much it. If you can commit to those things and do them successfully then you're pretty much on the road to being self-employed, able to work from anywhere with good internet connections, and financially very wealthy. Any comments welcome - especially if there are experienced or, even better, FAILED day traders out there. I hope that information is useful.

Rockhoundnz
17-04-2008, 02:51 PM
(I'm currently researching the possibility of gap trading on the SPI...so far I'm only using $1 AUSSIE200 contracts from CMC markets)

AMR, do you mean fading the overnight gap on the SPI? Or are you talking about short term gaps during the day?

airedale
17-04-2008, 04:00 PM
Hi Rocky, I am not a day trader, and I don't venture far from the ASX or NZX, but there was an interesting article in the Chch Press on Tu 15th. It was about Oli Hille from Chch who does it successfully for a living.
He estimates there are about 100 fulltime traders doing it in NZ.
He talks realistically about the pain of losing when you start, but in the last year has made $170,000 from 51 trades, averaging $3,333 per trade..

He also writes books, and has a web site which is worth a look.

www.author.co.nz (http://www.author.co.nz) You can download a 100 page book on his philosophy.
Get the paper if you can and read the article.
Cheers, Airedale

AMR
17-04-2008, 04:28 PM
AMR, do you mean fading the overnight gap on the SPI? Or are you talking about short term gaps during the day?

Fading the overnight gap..i.e today the Down rose 2.0% and the SPI gapped up, but was able to close off 60 points in the gap. It seems to be a fairly low risk way of doing things from what I've seen so far. An extraordinary amount of volatility in the opening 15 minutes though. Each pip is $25 per contract, I'm not sure how things are like on the Dow.

I'm also planning to scalp or swing trade the mini-HSI. It's a nice market, most of the time it trends quite nicely.

Rockhoundnz
17-04-2008, 05:10 PM
Fading the overnight gap..i.e today the Down rose 2.0% and the SPI gapped up, but was able to close off 60 points in the gap. It seems to be a fairly low risk way of doing things from what I've seen so far. An extraordinary amount of volatility in the opening 15 minutes though. Each pip is $25 per contract, I'm not sure how things are like on the Dow.

I'm also planning to scalp or swing trade the mini-HSI. It's a nice market, most of the time it trends quite nicely.

Yeah, on the Dow eminis the gap fade first thing when the market opens in the morning is a very successful trade. It has much higher risk than some other trades as it's usually done with no stop loss and the trade is closed either at the gap close or at the end of the day. Obviously if you have a big day against you (say 200 points) you're losing $5 per point per contract - so $1000 or more on one contract; nevermind some of the larger traders who do tens of contracts. So, it's not for the faint-hearted and not for the under-capitalised. I'd be interested to know if the Aussie market has a similar track record. Also, to do it you need a second account because you can't trade normally on the same contract with the gap trade open.

I'd be very interested to hear how the HSI-mini goes as I'm keeping that in mind once I'm trading on my own, so to speak. The Dow emini is great, but the hours are a little trying. :)

GeorgeW
19-04-2008, 01:42 AM
Hi Rockhoundnz,

A very, very good post. Thank you.
I'm a beginning trader myself, and cannot agree more.

The only problem I see is: mentors.
Trading world is full of them, and it's a scary world:mad:. Very few are reliable and "real".

Now, trying to find a good mentor can cost a fortune. Imagine how many of them one unfortunate beginner trader may go through before (if ever) finding an experienced and successful trader who will be willing to provide a tuition.

Then again, even if we find some, often their program will eat away the money we've saved for trading, considering that one may want to start with 10k and mentor's program contain let's say 3 courses, 1-3k each (I saw some are as much as 10k-50k!).

My question would be: do you have any advise on how to find the "real" one without spending money on rubbish?
How do you distinguish between rubbish and real thing, assuming that you don't have any experience in trading, don't know any traders, and don't have any recommendations?

Best!



Thanks AMR - and good suggestion. Actually, having thought a bit about my initial post perhaps I would have been better name this thread: "the correct way to become a full time trader" and not mention who I am learning from. I just know there are a lot of people out there who have thought about the idea of day-trading for a living, but haven't really known what that involves.

Just as Alex mentions in the video, the best way to view it is to put trading in the same basket as going to law school or med school - only you don't have to pass any exams to be allowed to start to learn to be a trader. As long as you are committed to a couple of years or more of learning before you start to make really good money and you have a reasonable amount of capital then anyone can potentially do it. In fact, what law school offers to pay you a modest income in the first year or two that you are learning? (As an interesting aside, I know of two former lawyers that are either learning to trade for a living or considering it).

For me personally, I simply quit my day job and decided trading was what I was going to do - the realism of that video (with none of the usual "you can make $1000 a day with as little as $5000" sort of garbage that you hear from most of the 'educators') told me how much commitment was required, and I have accepted that from the start. I'm now 3 months into that process - I am very much a 'newbie', but have been doing it long enough to know that the following information is true. If you'd prefer to hear the same information from an experienced trader I'm sure there are lots out there that will agree.


Here's what I would say you need if you're thinking about trading for a living (and I'm basing this on trading emini futures in the US which is my area):

1. Sufficient capital. A minimum of US$10,000, but better to be $20,000+. At the very least greater capital will mean it takes longer to blow your account which gives you more time to learn. Many of the world's best traders went bust several times before they became good traders.

Here's how long it took some smart and determined people to become profitable:

Linda Raschke - 3 years
John Carter - 4 years
Mark Fisher - 3 years
Hubert Senters - 2 years sitting by the side of an experienced trader before trading

2. A commitment and ability to sustain 1-2 years (at least) of learning without much of an income: be very suspicious of any website that claims you'll be making loads of $ in a few weeks!

3. A willingness to change your psychological view of money, risk and probability. This is probably the biggest hurdle that will cause about 90% of traders to fail. The book 'Trading in the Zone' by Mark Douglas is a great starting point to cover this stuff.

4. A good mentor. Almost all the best traders learnt from a mentor - they didn't just read a few books and do it themselves. Do your best to find someone who can teach you the skills and how to avoid the common pitfalls of trading. You might have to pay a lot for this. Some traders have spent over $100,000 on learning to trade before they became accomplished.

That's pretty much it. If you can commit to those things and do them successfully then you're pretty much on the road to being self-employed, able to work from anywhere with good internet connections, and financially very wealthy. Any comments welcome - especially if there are experienced or, even better, FAILED day traders out there. I hope that information is useful.

Steve
19-04-2008, 02:19 PM
Here's how long it took some smart and determined people to become profitable:

Linda Raschke - 3 years
John Carter - 4 years
Mark Fisher - 3 years
Hubert Senters - 2 years sitting by the side of an experienced trader before trading

Seeing the names reminds me of reading Jack Schwagers "New Market Wizard" books.

Does anyone else recall back around 95-97 when Dow Jones Telerate used to bring traders such as Linda over for seminars on trading?

I will have to dig out the details for those speakers...

dumbass
21-04-2008, 12:26 PM
totally agree, money management is the holy grail but a much neglected part of trading

i think a little too much time is given to fancy pants indicators , where as money

management is what makes you the money

you can toss a coin with every trade to determine direction but good mm will make you

profitable.

peat
21-04-2008, 01:27 PM
according to pure tick its not even where you enter your trade or whether you go short of long, its all about the exit,

Rockhoundnz
24-04-2008, 08:23 AM
Hi Rockhoundnz,

A very, very good post. Thank you.
I'm a beginning trader myself, and cannot agree more.

The only problem I see is: mentors.
Trading world is full of them, and it's a scary world:mad:. Very few are reliable and "real".

Now, trying to find a good mentor can cost a fortune. Imagine how many of them one unfortunate beginner trader may go through before (if ever) finding an experienced and successful trader who will be willing to provide a tuition.

Then again, even if we find some, often their program will eat away the money we've saved for trading, considering that one may want to start with 10k and mentor's program contain let's say 3 courses, 1-3k each (I saw some are as much as 10k-50k!).

My question would be: do you have any advise on how to find the "real" one without spending money on rubbish?
How do you distinguish between rubbish and real thing, assuming that you don't have any experience in trading, don't know any traders, and don't have any recommendations?

Best!




Hi GeorgeW

Thanks for the thanks! The question you ask is an important one, and a difficult one to answer. The things that attracted me to having Alex Wasilewski (head trader and co-founder of Puretick) as my mentor were that the marketing methods they used were not flashy, in fact if you watch the video above you get the impression he's almost trying to scare you off of trading - or at least qualify your commitment to it, and they have a focus on longterm education, not just on making trading calls which you can follow. I stumbled upon Puretick - I saw that video posted on a forum, and knew right away I had found someone different from a lot of the other "educators" and trading rooms out there.

It can be expensive to learn and some of the best traders have spent a six figure sum on their education.

My advise on how to decide if you've found a good mentor or not is to take a trial with them (most offer them, those that don't might be questionable) and get a feel for their teaching style, and then find out who their mentors were. A good analogy might be to think of them as sports coaches - who would you want to learn golf from, someone who was self-taught or someone who learned from Bob Charles, for instance? And then just remember it takes TIME - expect 18 months to 3 years to become accomplished. Plan to survive financially within your education for that long so you can keep learning from your mentor. That might also mean favouring a cheaper but longer course or membership to a mentor's trading room over an expensive short-term one, simply because more time means you get more experience - this is what I did, I was (briefly) considering Traders International, but then realised, amongst other things, that for the same cost I would get 18 months or more membership with Alex, compared to 3 months or so with TI. Once you do start make sure above all you learn money management first so you can protect your most vaulable assets - capital and therefore education time. Really, in some ways I am just repeating the content of that video by Alex - but it is correct. Other ways to find a mentor might be to look at people like Linda Raschke or other successful traders (see the list above) and see if there are links on their website to other mentors. I hope that helps.

Rockhoundnz
24-04-2008, 08:36 AM
First Learn about money management, apply it to all your trading

Plan a Trade, Trade with the Plan

Use trailing stops whether its ATR PSAR %Set.

Trail you stop. Limit losses... Lock in Gains

Don't attempt to predict the market. Allow you Plan to take out the emotions, beliefs , hunches.

Learn to work with and make the most of what ever the market gives you. Whether it's a loss or Profit.



Have a quick listen, if your new to Trading.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSpl8-5cyxI

Order this Free book and read it before you make any trades

http://www.sitm.com.au/flash/index.htm


This is probably one of the most serious posts I've made on ST and is very good advice.

Take it.

AA

All excellent advice, especially the first line.

Another book that is a MUST is 'Trading in the Zone' by Mark Douglas - great for dealing with the psychological issues of trading which are the biggest hurdles for most traders. Plus check out trader psychologist Brett Steenbarger's website (http://www.brettsteenbarger.com/). A lot of traders (me included) also use self-hypnosis tapes (or MP3s) to improve trading pyschology. A good site for those is: https://www.potentialsunlimited.com/.

Rockhoundnz
24-04-2008, 08:40 AM
according to pure tick its not even where you enter your trade or whether you go short of long, its all about the exit,

I would say that's not quite accurate peat. Alex teaches a whole range of things - entry and exit strategies, money management, use of indicators to form an overall picture of the market on several timeframes, and so on. Most of all he teaches that risk management is the first thing you need to think about.

GeorgeW
25-04-2008, 03:17 AM
Thanks a lot Rockhoundnz,

Yes, I see the logic behind your choice. It's true: when it comes to trading courses, most of them want to sound like it's a piece of cake with "their system" or "their course". And it isn't, as we know. And actually not so many offer any trial at all.
I think the most important is that after you take their course you can be in trading room with them, win or loose with them, and keep going, getting used to that chosen style of trading.

Thank you for sharing info about your mentor. I really enjoyed their web and videos. I must give it a serious thought.

Best!

AMR
06-05-2008, 12:24 PM
I am now having second thoughts about scalping and holding things for minutes. It seems all the money is in bigger moves where the norm is to hold for hours or days. I'm thinking of switching from SPI now to forex. Anyone having the same thoughts?

Steve
11-05-2008, 11:19 AM
I am now having second thoughts about scalping and holding things for minutes. It seems all the money is in bigger moves where the norm is to hold for hours or days. I'm thinking of switching from SPI now to forex. Anyone having the same thoughts?

It all depends on your trading style...

Captain Haddock
22-05-2008, 02:10 PM
Hi Rockhound, how are you finding PureTick? How about an update?
Cheers

Rockhoundnz
27-05-2008, 07:04 PM
Hi Capt Haddock. Sorry for the slow reply - have been overseas for a bit. It's still going well - I've only been trading cash for just a week now, after 3 months of sim trading, and it's gone pretty well so far - I was up by a small amount at the end of the first week, after commissions. One of the things I like about Puretick is that the learning never ends - it's not a case of "read the 300 page instructions and you're good to go". The Puretick style is on-the-job training - I guess it's like an apprenticeship. That may not suit some people, but I like it.

I'll see if I can post fairly regular updates of how things are progressing. I'm also about to set up a second account to trade the daily gap fade in the Dow eminis.

AMR
28-05-2008, 10:50 AM
Hi Rockhoundz, do you have any experience holding overnight? I've done some sums and in a bull market there seems to be strong evidence that holding overnight accounts for the majority of the gains (unfortunately there is no bull market right now).

Rockhoundnz
29-05-2008, 06:26 PM
Hi AMR,

No, all the trading I do is intraday. I like that at the end of the day I don't have any work to 'take home' with me.

Dr_Who
30-05-2008, 01:54 PM
(unfortunately there is no bull market right now).

Who says? :p I ve done very well out of VPE, NZO & PRC etc. You make more money from understanding and micro/macro fundamentals and holding it med/long term. Trading short term are for suckers, unless if you happen to make 50-100% return in a few days.

Walk before you run! Study economics, finance, accounting, psychology and statistics. Read the business papers and mags. Read and read! Learn to study fundamentals and read the company spreadsheets. Best of all learn from experiences.

If you want to gamble go buy yourself a lottery ticket.

AMR
31-05-2008, 05:51 PM
Who says? :p I ve done very well out of VPE, NZO & PRC etc. You make more money from understanding and micro/macro fundamentals and holding it med/long term. Trading short term are for suckers, unless if you happen to make 50-100% return in a few days.

Walk before you run! Study economics, finance, accounting, psychology and statistics. Read the business papers and mags. Read and read! Learn to study fundamentals and read the company spreadsheets. Best of all learn from experiences.

If you want to gamble go buy yourself a lottery ticket.

Hey, I hold those three too. And PSA which has done quite well lately until yesterday :o

You make trading short term sound like gambling, but there's definitely method and an edge there if you can find it. How will you know whether it's for you or not until you've given it a try? There might be a world-class forex trader within you :). Right now I'm trying everything (stocks, futures, forex) and every style (scalping, swing, position) before I settle on one.

Captain Haddock
01-06-2008, 08:11 AM
Hi Capt Haddock. Sorry for the slow reply - have been overseas for a bit. It's still going well - I've only been trading cash for just a week now, after 3 months of sim trading, and it's gone pretty well so far - I was up by a small amount at the end of the first week, after commissions. One of the things I like about Puretick is that the learning never ends - it's not a case of "read the 300 page instructions and you're good to go". The Puretick style is on-the-job training - I guess it's like an apprenticeship. That may not suit some people, but I like it.

I'll see if I can post fairly regular updates of how things are progressing. I'm also about to set up a second account to trade the daily gap fade in the Dow eminis.
great, I look forward to hearing your updates :-)

Rockhoundnz
23-07-2008, 04:56 AM
Hi,

Just thought I'd post a little update. Things are going well with Puretick. I spent the first 3 months on the simulator and then switched to cash. The first month or so on cash was hard and I did lose quite a bit. But the last month I've seen a lot of improvement and have had 3 profitable weeks out of 4. I find that the days I do make a loss I usually learn a lot. I'm only trading with 2 contracts so keeping things small until I am consist. I'd say I'm averaging about $100 a day at the moment, with my best day so far being about $350.

I'll post again in another month or two, but feel free to ask any questions if you have them.

AMR
13-09-2008, 03:05 PM
Hi rockhoundnz,

How are things going? Care to comment on your typical trading setups?

Cheers
AMR