PGC - Licenced to Bank

[Lizard]

http://www.stocknessmonster.com/news-item?S=PGC&E=NZSE&N=170771

What an interesting day to choose to announce that they are applying for a licence to become a specialist NZ Bank!

What are the benefits for PGC and why would they do this?

[Dubdee]

The benefits might be: the ability to call oneself a bank, participation in the settlements system, liquidity line with RBNZ via repos for certain assets, ability to offer check accounts,

Downside is a minimum level of capital, RBNZ regulatory oversight, rigid capital levels ( RBNZ is the most inflexible of all the central banks on regulatory capital types)

Note that in NZ bank deposits are not guaranteed by the government. Having said that wiould the NZ government allow a major bank to fail. See BNZ

[beacon]

cheaper funding costs, punters get more confidence ...

[macduffy]

M/D Brian Jolliffe comes with a distinguished banking background. Perhaps life at PGC is becoming a little boring!
Are they looking to use the PGG Wrightson connection to compete for farmers' business?

[BRICKS]

ON the surface it sounds a good idea and NZ needs its own banks as not to many details
are forthcoming time will TELL..

[Lizard]

Attempting to head in the right direction - probably on the back of opportunity for Marac under the GG.

Just checked their investment rates and if my memory of a week ago is correct, I think they have already dropped the 18 month rate by about 1.5%, so it seems they are feeling confident (South Canterbury still offering about 2% more on 18 mth investment)

PGW makes up about 1/3rd of s.p. and recent profits though, so will also have a hefty influence on where the s.p. goes.

[COLIN]

Couldn't understand why the market's initial reaction to today's restructuring announcement was to mark the shares UP! But then, after the detail had been digested, reality set in and the sp dropped away. A further hefty write-down of property loans and a cash issue - at no doubt a hefty discount - is hardly the sort of news that is share price enhancing.
The George Kerr development is an interesting one though. I actually hold shares in the unlisted EPIC No. 1 which is a PIE entity set up by Kerr to acquire, via Macquarie Bank entities, a small indirect interest in Thames Water in the UK. The holding structure is quite convoluted, as one would expect with Macquarie, but the tax-effectiveness means that the dividend yield is around 15%. EPIC has also recently acquired, again via Macquarie, a 17% interest in Moto, a UK motorway services area operator; those who have travelled on British motorways will know how exhorbitant the prices are when one stops for a coffee and sandwich at these monopolistic spots.
Kerr must be optimistic that he can use his network to raise funds to finance these toxic assets of MARAC's. In addition to his Macquarie connections he has been involved in a London based global hedge fund and was Chairman of Brook Asset Management from its inception until it was taken over by Macquaries. And, of course, he is also part of the Canterbury "establishment" - First Four Ships, Christs College, and all that!
Setting the price at which the toxic assets are transferred into the "Bad Bank" will be pivotal to this whole exercise.

[Dr_Who]

Front end loading and related party loans.

Who the hell would participate in this company's capital raising and/or buy its shares?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10586446

ps: PGC simply put cannot afford PGW at current market cap with PGW's debt @ $450m.

[COLIN]

Front end loading and related party loans.

Who the hell would participate in this company's capital raising and/or buy its shares?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10586446

ps: PGC simply put cannot afford PGW at current market cap with PGW's debt @ $450m.

I agree with your sentiments, good Doctor. And that's an incisive article by Brian Gaynor - it should be required reading for anyone with an interest - or contemplating an interest - in the Pyne Gould Guinness Wrightson octopus.
Unbelievably the PGC sp rose again on Friday - demonstrating that there are a lot of "old school" moneyed people in Canterbury who just seem to have blind faith in this "establishment" icon.

[winner69]

Doesn't seem to add up does it Colin

here's Marac meant to be one of NZ's strongest finance house having at least $160m of impaired loans (toxic according to one commenatator) which is more than 10% of their total assets ..... and the last Marac accounts showed equity at $130m so writing these off leaves Marac essentially broke .... no wonder the hinky dory financial jiggery pokery is needed

No doubt Ker et al are pretty clever guys but ......

[winner69]

Looks like these $160m loans that are likely to be or are impaired are staying in the PGC group .... PGC equity is $260m ... market cap is $170m ..... hell some capital will need to be raised somewhere

[Steve]

Have they been keeping up with their continuous disclosures on the increasing size of the impaired loans?

[winner69]

Have they been keeping up with their continuous disclosures on the increasing size of the impaired loans?

Last mention was at PGC half year when PGC set aside $25m for underwriting Marac property loans .... but problem abviously a bit worse than that

Of note in the stiff they announced the other day they said that the property loans needed to managed by a 'patient' investor which sort of said that heck it might take years to get our money back but we will eventually

As for disclosure I would have thought something before know as $160m of impaired or could become impaired loans is a hell of lot ... relative to the total loans and equity of both marac and the parent company

[whatsup]

The bench mark thinking of these finance companies should be, once the % sectors of their loan book are disclosed how many of these sectors,
1) Would be underwriten by a reputable share broker at the share brokers due dillegent valuation if those sectors would be floated off.
2) How many of those "floats" would be over subscribed
In this present market most of the loan valuations should be written down to "receivers valuations" imho.!

[winner69]

Interesting article on stuff as PGC shareprice rises off its lows

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/agribusiness/2720744/PGC-shares-under-cloud-of-uncertainty

So the prospect of a capital raising is a problem for the shareprice

and


.........rumours in the market that Mr Kerr and PGG Wrightson director and former chairman Craig Norgate did not get on.

and


Pyne Gould was a tightly held company with shares often owned by inactive investors or family estates, Mr Williamson said.

"Of course a lot of those estates won't have available funds to take up their share if they're asked to help fund [a capital raising].

"I think you'll find Perpetual Trust handle a lot of [the] estates."
(my comment) isn't Perpetual Trustees PGC owned ... so the Trustee of Marac ... and prob the old farming family estates holding PGC shares ... all sounds a bit incesteous (end of my comment)



and


Mr Ott said it was hard to judge any issues related to the timing of disclosure about the property loans.

[johndeyell]

Note that in NZ bank deposits are not guaranteed by the government. Having said that wiould the NZ government allow a major bank to fail. See BNZ

Yes they are...

[macduffy]

Yes they are...

Correct. It's now a matter of how and when the govt extracts its G/-, from finance companies as well as banks. Watch what the Aust govt does for a lead in this regard.

;)

[DTB]

Comment from Chris Lee regarding liability of Trustees in finance company collapses:

If Perpetual Trust, owned by Pyne Gould Corporation, has not provided for the potential cost of defending itself (and possibly losing) then in my view it has erred. We need these issues resolved in court.

Any thoughts?

[Snapper]

Comment from Chris Lee regarding liability of Trustees in finance company collapses:

If Perpetual Trust, owned by Pyne Gould Corporation, has not provided for the potential cost of defending itself (and possibly losing) then in my view it has erred. We need these issues resolved in court.

Any thoughts?

Chris who??

[winner69]

Comment from Chris Lee regarding liability of Trustees in finance company collapses:

If Perpetual Trust, owned by Pyne Gould Corporation, has not provided for the potential cost of defending itself (and possibly losing) then in my view it has erred. We need these issues resolved in court.

Any thoughts?

Sounds expensive if anybody does sue them .... it sounds like that they (and others) were pretty lax in their trusteeship

It also seems a bit incesteous that Marac can use Perpetual to be their trustee to keep an eye on the business ... its like little brother seeing that big brother doesn't get into trouble ..... where's the independence of the Trustee in this case.

But it looks like the big boys can get away with these sort of things eh

[sharer]

DTB: welcome to ST discussions, as i notice it's your first logged post.
You have raised an important point (tho i doubt the wisdom of rushing off for a Court determination as a first strategy).
I agree with W69's comment above. It seems so obvious that Perpetual cannot possibly be an independent trustee in relation to Marac when each is owned by the same uber-entity, that we have to wonder what they are all up to, and why they might think we are all so stupid they think they will get away with it. Want to bet on yet another infestation of so-called "chinese" walls as an excuse for imminent transparent roguery?

[winner69]

The George Kerr development is an interesting one though. I actually hold shares in the unlisted EPIC No. 1 which is a PIE entity set up by Kerr to acquire, via Macquarie Bank entities, a small indirect interest in Thames Water in the UK. The holding structure is quite convoluted, as one would expect with Macquarie, but the tax-effectiveness means that the dividend yield is around 15%. EPIC has also recently acquired, again via Macquarie, a 17% interest in Moto, a UK motorway services area operator; those who have travelled on British motorways will know how exhorbitant the prices are when one stops for a coffee and sandwich at these monopolistic spots.
.

I read he is after more of your money Colin

[winner69]

PGC down to all time low (I think) at 140 .... with buyesr at 130

Some weekend press around EPIC and other associated Kerr / PGC activities and a few getting a bit touchy

[COLIN]

I read he is after more of your money Colin
I might even toss him a bit, W69, for the Moto investment.
However, financing Marac's bad debts would be another matter.

(Incidentally, I think you made some comment on some thread, a week or two ago, about all the investing fun we had in the early 80's, after Roger Douglas threw the doors and windows wide open. It prompted me to dig out my old Investments Register, for a nostalgic trip. What a list! Remember names like Prorada Properties, Omnicorp, Impala Pacific, Renouf, Rainbow Properties (turned $2,500 into $6,845 in one month on those, and I don't think they had even bought any properties by then!), something called Cashcorp Holdings(can't remember what they did, and they probably didn't know either!), another called Further Developments Ltd (!!!!!), and so the list goes on. (And I had completely forgotten that in those days I had held shares in NZ Oil & Gas, Cue, and Kupe. ) Great days. And then it all turned to custard - I think BIL was my greatest loss.)

[winner69]

Sounds like an opportunity not be missed - esp for the retail investor

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/pgc-asset-management-head-relying-small-time-investors-107326

[Dr_Who]

Sounds like an opportunity not be missed - esp for the retail investor

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/pgc-asset-management-head-relying-small-time-investors-107326

Why would you invest in a fund that invest in other funds? All those fees and low to negative returns. You will have to be a mug to buy into this one.

[Steve]

PGC down to all time low (I think) at 140 .... with buyesr at 130

Some weekend press around EPIC and other associated Kerr / PGC activities and a few getting a bit touchy

What was the guts of last weekends press?

[winner69]

What was the guts of last weekends press?

It was a week or so now but the Sunday Star times had a couple of stories about all the shuffling around of assets .... and that that EPIC fund seemed to have management fees etc .... and that no doubt quite a bit of cpaital would need to be raised and all that of stuff

Fridays close of 137 is pretty low isn't it... makes the market cap of the whole shooting match a miserly $127m ... not much for the company that owns one of NZ strongest (so they say) finance companies eh

[winner69]

Geez wayne ... down to 115

Even the press have noticed
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/market-data/2770396/PGC-shares-fall-on-uncertainty


Like the bit ......analyst said the company's future had been clouded by uncertainty but that the financial pressure PGC was under might have been over- played.

Wonder where the uncertainty came from?

Talk of an issue of 200 million new shares and offer shareholders the opportunity to buy two new shares for each share held, at a price of 80c a share.

[winner69]

Press getting stuck into PGC again .... probably totally uninformed and making up stuff that doesn't really exist

However a good old stoush in the boardroom is often a good thing

Maybe part of Kerrs big plan to get control of the lot .... first of all get rid of those old fashioned buggers on the board.

Would have to be a bit worried if this was really Kerr's intent (though it seems to be if his carry on with the EPIC funds is anything to go on) - (quote) It is understood he sees PGC aggressively pursuing the success of fund management firms like Sydney-based Macquarie Group, nicknamed "the millionaires' factory".

Geez Mr Kerr - even Macquaries have admitted that the Macquarie Model is broke

Never mind ... maybe this guy Kerr is cleverer than Macquaries



PGC board split on future direction

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/market-data/2860880/PGC-board-split-on-future-direction

[winner69]

So the press were making stuff up gain ..... naughty naughty


]Pyne Gould Corporation (PGC) said that a report in the Christchurch Press today (14.09.09) citing unnamed market sources was completely inaccurate.

PGC chairman, Mr Sam Maling, said: "To suggest there is a split in the board could not be further from the truth. The Board is 100% united."


I just love 100% united boards .... but I have that feeling the unnamed market sources probably are right .... even if only a little bit right

Are you an 'unanmed market source'?

[winner69]

As the NBR points out PGC getting quicker and quicker to clamp down on press speculation

PGC are their own worst enemy - as the NBR also points out they have been reluctant to confirm or deny much lately

To you press guys .... keep it up ... must be more informed sources out there to get some juicy bits

Would have been funny (or not so funny) for Sam this morning ..... on to his way to work and his mobile rings with all his mates supporting him ... a few ringing him to find out if it was true ... and i wonder what Kerr said ... ha ha

Whatever - methinks it all going to end in tears for the small shareholder - inlcuding all those estates and trust money that has been invested in this lot

A good old stoush of new thinking taking over the old guard - no doubt set in their ways --- good stuff - let the bell ring for round 3 ... or is it round 4




Anyway the NBR bit

PGC denies a schism in its board
Robert Smith | Monday September 14 2009 - 11:56am
While there has been no shortage of rumours and whispers around the future of Pyne Gould Corporation, it has still been quick to clamp down on any media reports that go outside the company line with two rebuttals in two weeks.

After an earlier statement regarding an underwriter for its capital raising two weeks ago, Pyne Gould has now denied its board is split between “old guard” directors and director George Kerr.

This morning it said a report in today’s Christchurch Press, claiming a split in the board was “completely inaccurate”.

Chairman Sam Maling said the claim in the article that director George Kerr was driving the company in a direction that could conflict with other board members “could not be further from the truth” and that the board was “100% united."

The company was a lot faster refuting this claim than it was two weeks ago when it denied another Fairfax report that an underwriter had been found for the company’s upcoming capital raising needed to fund subsidiary Marac’s transformation into a bank.

That clarification came two days after the article was published and saw the NZX ask PGC for an explanation for the spike seen in its share price on the day before it corrected the report.

This time it only took a couple of hours to deny the media claim, although its share price was still heading in a familiar direction this morning, down 3c to $1.06 by 11.30am.

PGC has been reluctant to confirm or deny much else as it prepares the capital raising, although an update from the company is expected later this month.

[Breastwork]

Winner, PGC has repeatedly stated that PAM's assets are EPAM (previously owned by Kerr) and Torchlight.
It doesn't take much to find that Torchlight is owned by Kerr.
PGC should be careful if they intend playing a shell game.

[nwood]

The Rights Offer to eligible shareholders of PGC forms a major part of the capital raising being undertaken by the Company and is fully underwritten by First NZ Capital Securities Limited. The Rights Offer allows all eligible shareholders to subscribe for 6 new shares for every 1 share held on the record date, at a subscription price of $0.40 per new share. Immediately following completion of the Rights Offer it is proposed between $15 million and $30 million will be raised through a separate placement to institutional and habitual investors, including non-broker sub-underwriters of the Rights Offer. PGC also intends to launch a Share Purchase Plan upon closing of the proposed placement, under which existing shareholders will be entitled to apply for up to $5,000 worth of additional shares.

[nwood]

Key Dates
The key dates* for the Rights Offer are:
• Record date to determine entitlements under rights issue and share purchase plan - Wednesday, 30 September 2009
• Rights trading commences on the NZSX – Thursday, 1 October 2009
• Rights trading ceases on NZSX (close of trading) – Thursday, 15 October 2009
• Rights Offer closes (last day for receipt of Entitlement and Acceptance Forms) (5.00pm) – Monday, 19 October 2009
• Allotment of new shares under the Rights Offer – by Tuesday, 27 October 2009
• Settlement and allotment of the placement –Wednesday, 28 October 2009

[Dr_Who]

Can someone convince me why I should buy some PGC during the rights issue?

I cant seem to find any good reason to buy this stock.

disc: not a shareholder

[Breastwork]

"Having put the new management team in place, immediately after the capital
raising is complete, the directors intend to undertake a review of the
Board's composition, as well as the composition of the board of MARAC."

Surely this has nothing to do with the earlier press??
Wonder what it's going to result in......

[COLIN]

"Having put the new management team in place, immediately after the capital
raising is complete, the directors intend to undertake a review of the
Board's composition, as well as the composition of the board of MARAC."

Surely this has nothing to do with the earlier press??
Wonder what it's going to result in......

It will probably result in George Kerr bringing in with him some more of his mates from the Macquarie stable - presumably at "The Millionaires' Bank" remuneration rates.

[Jaa]

I wonder why theres no shortfall or over subscription facility?

Combined with such a huge ratio (for every share held, $2.4 is required to take up all the associated rights - surely impossible for many at the moment) it guarantees a large number of shares won't be taken up in the rights offer.

Guess it makes it easier for Kerr to top up cheaply. Would have thought that First NZ would want to limit their risk though.

[mouse]

Why no comments recently? For example South Canterbury Finance have indicated that they are now talking about bringing in cash from other investors. Hence no public float. Is Pyne Gould involved? Would SCF and Pyne make a good mix, would they be certain to get a Bank License if takenover.

Plus what is happening now? Is Pyne in profit yet, are most problems behind them? News and Gossip welcome.

[percy]

Why no comments recently? For example South Canterbury Finance have indicated that they are now talking about bringing in cash from other investors. Hence no public float. Is Pyne Gould involved? Would SCF and Pyne make a good mix, would they be certain to get a Bank License if takenover.

Plus what is happening now? Is Pyne in profit yet, are most problems behind them? News and Gossip welcome.

Friendly rivals.Hubard helped kerr out when no one else would.Kerr now returning the favour.
At the AGM said pgc had enough on their plate without having to sort out South Canterbury. Banking License is on track but will take a little time.Will mean they pay less for money.
I think we will start getting progress updates shortly. I would think Marac is trading well.The PGW investment should start to show capital growth and new people Kerr has brought in will want to prove their worth.

[Balance]

Why no comments recently? For example South Canterbury Finance have indicated that they are now talking about bringing in cash from other investors. Hence no public float. Is Pyne Gould involved? Would SCF and Pyne make a good mix, would they be certain to get a Bank License if takenover.

Plus what is happening now? Is Pyne in profit yet, are most problems behind them? News and Gossip welcome.

Mouse, note that most of the posters were very negative on PGC so they missed out big time on investing during the rights issue. That's why there's no comments - there are few shareholders.

If you want to know what's happening - just follow the insiders and directors. They are buying and paying higher and higher prices for their increased shareholdings.

The last lot that the two Georges (Kerr & Gould) bought was at 50 cents from SCF.

Watch some of the posters screaming insider trading in 6 months' time when the share price goes up much higher. Same posters will not buy now at 48c or 49c - below where the directors paid!

[percy]

PGC is now in the top 50 index.
This came alot earlier than expected.

[mouse]

Mouse, note that most of the posters were very negative on PGC so they missed out big time on investing during the rights issue. That's why there's no comments - there are few shareholders.

If you want to know what's happening - just follow the insiders and directors. They are buying and paying higher and higher prices for their increased shareholdings.

The last lot that the two Georges (Kerr & Gould) bought was at 50 cents from SCF.

Watch some of the posters screaming insider trading in 6 months' time when the share price goes up much higher. Same posters will not buy now at 48c or 49c - below where the directors paid!

I bought 40,000 PGC and am now in profit. So I am quite happy. I could not understand how people would refuse to invest in a finance company that had its cash raising fully underwritten. PGC were clearly going to become a major player in the finance field, particularly with so many companies going belly up. I think that with George Kerr having so much cash in the company that we must even get a dividend of at least 1 cent or even more this year. In a couple of years the shares could even be worth 80 cents.

[percy]

I bought 40,000 PGC and am now in profit. So I am quite happy. I could not understand how people would refuse to invest in a finance company that had its cash raising fully underwritten. PGC were clearly going to become a major player in the finance field, particularly with so many companies going belly up. I think that with George Kerr having so much cash in the company that we must even get a dividend of at least 1 cent or even more this year. In a couple of years the shares could even be worth 80 cents.

Mouse.Hang on for the ride.At the AGM kerr spoke of how when times were good the market valued finance compnnies at twice their NTA,and when times were tough at or under nta.
PGC NTA at present 61cents or there about.He also stated he needed the dividend.
As you said PGC will clearly going to become a major player in the finance field.

[mouse]

Mouse.Hang on for the ride.At the AGM kerr spoke of how when times were good the market valued finance compnnies at twice their NTA,and when times were tough at or under nta.
PGC NTA at present 61cents or there about.He also stated he needed the dividend.
As you said PGC will clearly going to become a major player in the finance field.

:) I went to the special meeting today in Christchurch to eat sausage rolls and get info. First, there were no sausage rolls. This is quite sad. Had to eat sandwiches instead. They should have sausage rolls. How can you have any meeting of shareholders without sausage rolls? :mellow:

No dividend for the financial year ending June this year. However, a good prospect of one next year. So Percy, not just Pike but Pyne are no cash. Spoke to Sam Maling. He said that no dividend was affecting the share price. Hence low level. Sam did say he thought that Pyne is a $2.00 stock. Within the next couple of years.

I also spoke to The Press Business Editor who was there. She said that Pyne now have a very good board. So that is some cause for optimism. :)

[percy]

mouse.
11am meetings no. 4pm friday afternoon is when the good wine and tucker comes out.I found Sam Maling good to talk to, Straight shooter,I will miss his good way of running a meeting.
Years ago I went to AGM and there was darn near three cheers for the chairman when he announced an increase in divie. That was Sir Miles Warren He was a good chairman also.
I think we will slowly see things happen and as you found out divie will get the SP moving.Strong board,strong balance sheet,good staff, mouse, thanks for reporting and going to the meeting.
I am flat out at present so didnot get to the meeting.

[Logen Ninefingers]

PGC set to roll over loan to SCF
By MARTA STEEMAN - The Press Last updated 05:00 05/03/2010

Pyne Gould Corporation cornerstone shareholder George Kerr is prepared to renew the $75 million loan to South Canterbury Finance – "all going well".
International ratings agency Standard and Poor's said this week SCF needs the continuing investment of debenture holders and other "liability stakeholders" when it announced SCF's credit rating downgrade to BB. PGC's Torchlight Credit Fund lent SCF $75m in October.
Mr Kerr, who chairs the Torchlight Credit Fund, said yesterday, after a special meeting of PGC, that the loan by Torchlight matured in May and "all going well we would like to extend it, assessing things are going down the right track".
Mr Kerr said SCF still needed to do significant restructuring and new chief executive Sandy Maier had seen clearly what to do, which was to consolidate the assets under one group, Southbury. Torchlight supported the strategy.
There were potential opportunities for Torchlight to offer SCF more liquidity from time to time and maybe buy some assets and/or provide debt that could convert to equity.
Mr Kerr said at the PGC annual meeting in October he regarded SCF as "friends". Torchlight had been set up to provide credit to stressed companies and had been busy. Mr Kerr would not reveal how many loans Torchlight had extended but SCF's was the first.
PGC's new Perpetual Asset Management (PAM) funds management business in its first six months contributed $1.9m in pre-tax earnings and much of PAM's earnings had come from Torchlight.
A shareholder at the PGC special meeting yesterday asked why Marac was getting out of property lending when everyone else was, creating opportunities in property.
Managing director Jeff Greenslade said property activities were being pursued in another part of the company. Marac's impaired loans had been placed with Real Estate Credit and that was being managed by Torchlight.
He said PGC wanted Marac focused on higher-quality lending. Marac was focused on establishing deep relationships with its customers, regaining an investment grade credit rating and securing a banking licence.
Asked about sharebroker Chris Lee's view of the formation of a South Island bank through the merger of SCF, Marac and other players, Mr Kerr said it was a reasonable idea, but he suggested that opportunities in the finance sector were part of Torchlight's domain.
========================
1/ Isn't Torchlight lending to stressed companies a significant risk, which could impact on the health of PGC as a whole?
2/ Why get involved in lending to SCF? Why take the risk? Is this 'related party' lending? What is gained by being "friends" with SCF?
3/ Why not steer clear of potentially high risk loans as a group....not just MARAC, but the whole of PGC as a totality. Surely PGC has learnt from past mistakes (?) and will not put the health of the company as risk again (?)

[Logen Ninefingers]

I think I'll sell off my PGC, for the following reasons:
1/ All these millionaires in Canterbury are a clique. PGC should be in competition with SCF, not propping them up. This should be about business, not about 'friends'. $75 million is a big chunk of money...too big in my book.
2/ Torchlight has been given a mandate to invest in 'distressed companies'. I'm not comfortable with that. The whole group could be crippled by another round of big impaired loans no matter how strongly the other parts of the business perform.
3/ MARAC is a tainted brand....it's not suitable to be turned into a bank, it's associated with bad & written-off loans. The banking industry is competetive in NZ, and we already have a local component in TSB and Kiwi Bank. I don't see that MARAC has much going for it.
4/ The recent saga's of the 'hidden loan' and the 'runaway chief risk officer' is another big blow to the credibility of MARAC.

[Balance]

I think I'll sell off my PGC, for the following reasons:
1/ All these millionaires in Canterbury are a clique. PGC should be in competition with SCF, not propping them up. This should be about business, not about 'friends'. $75 million is a big chunk of money...too big in my book.
2/ Torchlight has been given a mandate to invest in 'distressed companies'. I'm not comfortable with that. The whole group could be crippled by another round of big impaired loans no matter how strongly the other parts of the business perform.
3/ MARAC is a tainted brand....it's not suitable to be turned into a bank, it's associated with bad & written-off loans. The banking industry is competetive in NZ, and we already have a local component in TSB and Kiwi Bank. I don't see that MARAC has much going for it.
4/ The recent saga's of the 'hidden loan' and the 'runaway chief risk officer' is another big blow to the credibility of MARAC.

Wise decision - if you are uncomfortable and cannot get comfortable, get out.

[percy]

Wise decision - if you are uncomfortable and cannot get comfortable, get out.

I agree if uncomfortable it is a wise to get out.
I am very comfortable because;
1/clique yes you do not stand between them and a dollar.I have been friends with my competitors for years.they have helped me out and I have helped them out.good business.
2/warren Buffett and most wealthy people have invested in distressed companies.All to do with risk reward.
3/ MARAC is not tainted.remember when American Express nearly went broke.Buffett was at a restaraunt and saw customers using AE card ,brought the company and made a lot of money.
4/Hidden loan will allways happen in a financial company.donot sell westpac because some one had their fingers in the till.what is positive is new system picked it up.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Ok, so we should all invest in distressed finance companies. Sounds like a good idea. Did Warren Buffett chuck some money into Hanover when they were distressed?
I don't get the bit about being friends with competitors. Isn't the market about survival of the fittest? Or is this all 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer"?
What is negative is that the loan was very old and eventually had to come to light.
What's happening with the chief risk officer? His profile is still on the MARAC site.

[mouse]

I agree if uncomfortable it is a wise to get out.
I am very comfortable because;
1/clique yes you do not stand between them and a dollar.I have been friends with my competitors for years.they have helped me out and I have helped them out.good business.
2/warren Buffett and most wealthy people have invested in distressed companies.All to do with risk reward.
3/ MARAC is not tainted.remember when American Express nearly went broke.Buffett was at a restaraunt and saw customers using AE card ,brought the company and made a lot of money.
4/Hidden loan will allways happen in a financial company.donot sell westpac because some one had their fingers in the till.what is positive is new system picked it up.

Sean Kam was the chap who discovered the problem loan. I chatted to him after the special meeting and congratulated him on locating the problem loan. It appears the loan was very well hidden and required quite a bit of work to ferret it out. Sean is to be congratulated. As I said to him, 'you call it as you see it'. A bad loan is just that. Previous to talking to Sean I had spoken to another of the Marac chaps who mentioned the work Sean had done.
I dont care if the news is bad, what bothers me is when bad news goes through the mincer and becomes wonderful. Good luck to Pyne. I shall continue to hold.:)

[Logen Ninefingers]

Geez, I wonder who hid the loan? Was it one person or did others know about it? It was unauthorised aye?

[percy]

LM
NO! NO! NO! A mine field.You have to be an expert.I was thinking of GPG looking at Hanover and walking away.Buffett brought bond in five mile nucular plant after it was shut down because he worked out they would still be paid out.
survival of the fittest.maybe but I have allways done better business through cooperation.It depends where you draw the line.
Yes it was a very old loan.
I would expect profile to be removed.
Mouse you sure spoke to a lot of people and learnt plenty.well done.

[mouse]

LM
NO! NO! NO! A mine field.You have to be an expert.I was thinking of GPG looking at Hanover and walking away.Buffett brought bond in five mile nucular plant after it was shut down because he worked out they would still be paid out.
survival of the fittest.maybe but I have allways done better business through cooperation.It depends where you draw the line.
Yes it was a very old loan.
I would expect profile to be removed.
Mouse you sure spoke to a lot of people and learnt plenty.well done.

;)That is the whole point of going to meetings, isn't it. Not to listen to what is said on the record, but the refreshment discussions. Never leave early. Pity about the sausage rolls though.
I am pretty happy about Pyne. I was thinking of selling some of Pyne and buying more of Pike but have now changed my mind. I reckon Pyne will be in the money some time before Pike. Now I am satisfied with my holdings in both. 30,000 Pyne, about 6,000 in Pike plus any rights on offer that I can get this time round.:) I look on Pike as much more of a punt than Pyne.

[percy]

Mouse.That i s the whole point of going to meetings.YES.You have taken good practice to an art form!!!!
We may never meet at any meetings.I will not answer to the name percy,and am not going around asking everyone if they are mouse.!!!!
I think you will feel better with your holdings from attending the meeting.
You have a good amount at stake so worthwhile keeping a close eye on it.

[mouse]

Mouse.That i s the whole point of going to meetings.YES.You have taken good practice to an art form!!!!
We may never meet at any meetings.I will not answer to the name percy,and am not going around asking everyone if they are mouse.!!!!
I think you will feel better with your holdings from attending the meeting.
You have a good amount at stake so worthwhile keeping a close eye on it.

I remember the NZ railways. Cannot remember who owned them at the time. Lovely Annual Reports. Profit and dividends. A good investment. But I looked at the locomotives which were diesel and belching smoke as if they were steam trains as they went through Christchurch which is totally flat! I remembered the words of Brash Bonsall, my Bible School lecturer in England. "The Canadian Pacific railway got in trouble. It took then two locomotives to get the wagons up a small incline near my house. Then three locomotives. Then they went bankrupt". Same with our railway. They were belching smoke and went broke, I never put any cash in. You have to keep an eye on what is happening, as well as reading the reports. Many thanks for your encouragement Percy.

[beacon]

happy to hold.

[Balance]

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

After the near death experience, PGC is perfectly positioned to be a prime mover & shaker in the finance sector:

Strong balance sheet,
deep pocketed and well connected shareholders,
new management,
established presence,
government guarantee to get the funds required to expand,
business and commercial sector screaming for credit and prepared to offer security,
high margins

Meanwhile most of its competitors are buggered or are hated (the trading banks).

And the sp reflects the usual NZ 'wait until everything is clear' mentality.

Hold and will sell when sp is $5.05.

[percy]

Be careful Balance,I have a feeling Mouse may unload a few at $4.99.Not sure what price Logen ninefingers would sell.Maybe he falls in love with it and will not sell under $6.00.As the old saying goes "we are well positioned for the upturn"!!!!!!

[zigzag]

Balance - $5.00 per share? You must be talking looong term, or you're being a touch over-optimistic. I picked up 50000 during the recap. and would be totally beside myself if the price got to $5.00. Realistically, the only way PGC will get to $5.00 in the short/medium term is if they consolidate the shares ( a la NPX ) Long term - $5.00 would be nice. For the meantime, I feel quite comfortable/happy with my holding.

[macduffy]

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger

Isn't it curious how certain phrases seem to have currency from time to time.

Why, only a couple of days ago columnist Alan Kohler was saying the same thing about the Greece/Europe relationship!

[Dr_Who]

What's PGC competitive advantage over the other much larger and stronger banks? What covenants are in place to ensure that the promoters are not using PGC as their own piggy bank such as related party loans and moving their own assets at inflated valued into PGC?

[percy]

With GE money and others pulling out on NZ and Aussie banks looking towards Asia there is plenty of market for MARAC.I would think every one is now inside the tent peeing out,rather than some outside the tent peeing in.ie Ker's interests are now via PGC.As for paying too much and covenants time will tell.What we must remember is Ker saved PGC,put his money on the line,and brought in good staff who wanted to work for him.These same people have also put their money on the line buying PGC shares.Directors and management have a lot of flesh on the line.
This was a huge capital raising,that was underwritten.From what I heard a lot of Ker's contacts missed out, as shareholder take up of the rights was surprising, so they invested in torchlight.
The board is very strong and as I have noted have a large shareholding.Gould has put up a huge amount of money taking his holding from I think under 1% to 5%.Ker has attracted this backing.
I will be frank,I think the Aussies regard NZ as backward.This opens the door to NZ bankers. Life goes on and people with good ideas will want to borrow money,this is a fact of life.Cars ,equipment ,business expansion ,all need a NZ bank or strong NZ finance company.In fact NZ needs NZders backing NZ growth.Ker and his team seem to understand risk/reward.Shareholders in PGC didnot walk away.As well as MARAC we will see growth in the areas Ker has brought in.He has a proven record of funds management.Torchlight will not be for the weak willed.We may see more on UK investments with Epic.A lot going on with experienced people brought in to manage them. I was impressed by bringingin george Gould and putting him on PGW board.He proved his worth with Reid Farmers PGG merger.AS we all know put in a good board ,attract good staff,have a strong balance sheet and the results will come.

[Balance]

What's PGC competitive advantage over the other much larger and stronger banks? What covenants are in place to ensure that the promoters are not using PGC as their own piggy bank such as related party loans and moving their own assets at inflated valued into PGC?

You may want to read the new regulations put in place by the government. It's all there.

[mouse]

You may want to read the new regulations put in place by the government. It's all there.

Very surprised, Balance has, at last, found a company he approves of! Amazing. :eek2: Of course, I approve of Pike as well, but will hold my 30,000 in Pyne.
To the need for another Bank. I popped in to Kiwi Bank, ASB Bank, SBS Bank, etc, etc. I wanted to borrow $10,000 against my holdings in Pyne, Pike etc to buy more shares. Would give security over the existing shares plus the newly purchased shares. My holding at present is worth around $24,000.
The answer was NO, NO, NO, ETC. Besides raising very serious questions over the lending practices of the banks in question, we only lend on housing loans, and what happens when housing goes into a tailspin?, it emphasizes that there is space in the market for another NZ bank. Those we have here are on thin ice, only lending on housing.
Good luck to Marac. :)

[macduffy]

Good luck to you, mouse, in getting a loan from "Marac Bank" to buy shares, in the event that Marac do indeed get a banking licence.

Personally, I don't think that your experience indicates that there is "space in the market for another NZ bank." Banks have traditionally been reluctant to lend for that purpose, or for other speculative purposes, for that matter. Apart from the difficulty in valuing the security ( Fortex? Feltex? Allied Farmers? ) there is the problem of risk weighting for capital adequacy purposes. A bank is able to lend against housing with a fraction of the capital required for loans for purchasing equities. That's a prudential requirement, not an individual bank policy matter. More new banks won't make any difference to that.

[Balance]

Very surprised, Balance has, at last, found a company he approves of! Amazing. :eek2: Of course, I approve of Pike as well, but will hold my 30,000 in Pyne.
To the need for another Bank. I popped in to Kiwi Bank, ASB Bank, SBS Bank, etc, etc. I wanted to borrow $10,000 against my holdings in Pyne, Pike etc to buy more shares. Would give security over the existing shares plus the newly purchased shares. My holding at present is worth around $24,000.
The answer was NO, NO, NO, ETC. Besides raising very serious questions over the lending practices of the banks in question, we only lend on housing loans, and what happens when housing goes into a tailspin?, it emphasizes that there is space in the market for another NZ bank. Those we have here are on thin ice, only lending on housing.
Good luck to Marac. :)

Go to Forsyth Barr's Leverage Equities and borrow from them based upon the security of your shares. They cost more as you would expect.

This is exactly the kind of business that Marac should get into - with proper risk management & prudential limits. Not stupid lending like the Aussie banks did, lending hundreds of millions to one single individual or to a group of individuals (eg. Babcock &Brown) but well spread over quality shares like Forsyth Barr's Leverage Equities. A few millions in profits each year - nice.

[mouse]

:confused:
Go to Forsyth Barr's Leverage Equities and borrow from them based upon the security of your shares. They cost more as you would expect.

This is exactly the kind of business that Marac should get into - with proper risk management & prudential limits. Not stupid lending like the Aussie banks did, lending hundreds of millions to one single individual or to a group of individuals (eg. Babcock &Brown) but well spread over quality shares like Forsyth Barr's Leverage Equities. A few millions in profits each year - nice.

;)The principle of lending, as I understood it, is ability to pay and willingness to pay. So lending say 25% or 30% of a portfolio, with the ability to make a 'cash call' at any time seems to me to be far more secure than lending 90% of the questionable value of a house. What really worries me about our NZ banks is their blinkered view of lending. I remember I tried to get an overdraft from Kiwi Bank some years ago. They would approve $500.00 for my overdraft, no more. My worth was almost $1 million! In three properties. Two were freehold. Total madness from them of course, but you can see the funny side of it. A Marac Bank should clean up in NZ, the banks here need a bit of competition! :) Instead of getting an overdraft I made sure I never went into the red. :p

[Balance]

NZ is going backwards as a country in the global economy because of the lack of funding for businesses. The trading banks here are only interested in lending on mortgages - not businesses, as Mouse has noted. Even property development only happened because of the finance companies.

So opportunities to lend money to good businesses and good credit are plentiful.

Everyone can see the need for a major NZ bank. Marac needs to get it right and the main shareholders will be very careful to get it right - they have serious money at stake. Unlikely to let this one run away.

[Logen Ninefingers]

By all means have Marac focus on lending to business, but why put millions into 'Torchlight' - $75 million alone lent by Torchlight to SCF - for lending to distressed companies. I believe the investors who participated in the capital raising believed that the funds were going towards strengthening Marac with the aim of turning it into a bank. Did anyone believe that a very significant portion of the money raised would be going to something called Torchlight to help it prop up SCF?
I thought the money from the capital raising was required to give PGC/MARAC itself fresh capital.....is there now a spare $75million lying around that can be used to give SCF liquidity?
SCF is a company in very poor health; PGC should concentrate on getting it's own house in order & remain focussed on what it's aims are as they relate to it's own business.

[Silverlight]

ASB securities do allow margin lending for buying shares. Most of it is not 1 for 1, more around 70% of the current value of your shares, they also only do it on 30 -40 securities on NZX.

[percy]

PGC did not lend Torchlight $75 mil. torchlight raised the funds separately.Ker has always said their focus was on getting their own house in order.I believe Torchlight ,s money has first right
before anyone else at SCF.The money raised in capital raising has gone where they said it was going.LN all this information has been avaliale in paper work and reports sent to shareholders.
Only new info is what Mouse found out and a lot is only confirmation of previous reports.

[mouse]

ASB securities do allow margin lending for buying shares. Most of it is not 1 for 1, more around 70% of the current value of your shares, they also only do it on 30 -40 securities on NZX.

ASB was one of the banks I approached. No way was the answer. We only lend on housing. As Balance says, we need banks to lend on business ventures etc. As well as housing. But to put all of their loans into housing seems to me very poor business practice. Their fingers will long term get burnt. Since house prices can go into a tailspin so fast. A builder friend built the $1 million house. Market collapsed, house unsold. Mortgagee sale now. Repeated across NZ. Another friend borrowed for renovations then sale. Same result. Me? I have never failed to pay my debts, yet banks refuse to lend. They are missing good business and sound profits. Hopefully Marac will fill the gaping void in the market. I am sure they will. Good luck to them, and us.

[Balance]

By all means have Marac focus on lending to business, but why put millions into 'Torchlight' - $75 million alone lent by Torchlight to SCF - for lending to distressed companies. I believe the investors who participated in the capital raising believed that the funds were going towards strengthening Marac with the aim of turning it into a bank. Did anyone believe that a very significant portion of the money raised would be going to something called Torchlight to help it prop up SCF?
I thought the money from the capital raising was required to give PGC/MARAC itself fresh capital.....is there now a spare $75million lying around that can be used to give SCF liquidity?
SCF is a company in very poor health; PGC should concentrate on getting it's own house in order & remain focussed on what it's aims are as they relate to it's own business.

LN - do note that it's Pepertual, a sub of PGC, which is involved in setting up Torchlight - not Marac. Nothing to do with Marac.

Torchlight is set up as a fund to invest in distressed assets with money coming from high net worth and professional investors - not from the capital raising!

Nice fees and market presence for Perpetual. PGC's exposure in Torchlight is a $15m line of credit which will be liquidated as funds are raised.

SCF is a company in poor health but amongst its assets are some quality ones. They are ripe for the picking and PGC is in the frontline to pluck them.

Torchlight's loan to SCF is 1st ranking priority fully secured - this loan gets repaid first before anybody else does. Looks pretty good to me.

[Dr_Who]

Mouse. I enjoy reading your posts and like the fact that you are passionate about the things you have invested in. Too much passion can sometimes cloud ones judgement. Banks do lend to businesses. Due to the recent credit crunch, they have just tighten the noose. The time will come in the future where banks will start to lend like there is no tomorrow again and forget there was a financial market crash. If you have a good relationship with your bank they are more flexible.

Dont forget that high risk lending usually end up when tears with the market turns. The recent fall of finance companies is prove of the risk in lending to high risk ventures.

Take a look at this site.

Failed Bank List
http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html

[zigzag]

A second KiwiBank ... I think there's room in the market ;)

I don't think Marac intends to be a second Kiwibank. Kiwibank is a like a retail bank with many streetfront branches. Marac is looking to be more of a niche player. In fact Kiwibank and Marac already co-operate in some areas.

[Silverlight]

ASB was one of the banks I approached. No way was the answer. We only lend on housing..

https://www.asbsecurities.co.nz/section15.asp

[biker]

By all means have Marac focus on lending to business, but why put millions into 'Torchlight' - $75 million alone lent by Torchlight to SCF - for lending to distressed companies. I believe the investors who participated in the capital raising believed that the funds were going towards strengthening Marac with the aim of turning it into a bank. Did anyone believe that a very significant portion of the money raised would be going to something called Torchlight to help it prop up SCF?
I thought the money from the capital raising was required to give PGC/MARAC itself fresh capital.....is there now a spare $75million lying around that can be used to give SCF liquidity?
SCF is a company in very poor health; PGC should concentrate on getting it's own house in order & remain focussed on what it's aims are as they relate to it's own business.

Logen Ninefingers, with all due respect, may I suggest you do some home work on this company, before making uninformed posts like this?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Logen Ninefingers, with all due respect, may I suggest you do some home work on this company, before making uninformed posts like this?

That's fair enough I guess, but other posters have said that Torchlight raised the money independently and I have no reason to dispute it. Where they got that information from, I don't know, but am happy to accept it. If everyone goes off, does all the research, & reaches the same conclusions, then I see no point in having a site like this. If by posting my own views I get information from other posters which contradicts me, I am happy to stand corrected. And I guess everyone who reads the posts by 'those in the know' will be better informed themselves.
I am not overly convinced that Torchlight raising the money independently necessarily translates into it being a good thing to prop up SCF to the tune of $75 million dollars, but I guess I'll get slammed by other posters on that too. The point I would make is that one part of the group being in trouble would impact on the group as a whole, so I don't know about Torchlight being considered some sort of seperate entity. But, if it all works out in the end, great.

[percy]

Logen Ninefingers, with all due respect, may I suggest you do some home work on this company, before making uninformed posts like this?

Logan I have had a go at directors at AGMs and have asked questions,and have rung directors when i am unsure of things.I try to make positive statements and be helpful to all other posters.I do however spend a lot of time reading annual reports and make sure of my facts.I have had directors thanking me for my well informed questions and have found directors only to happy to speak to me either at meetings or on the phone.I am sorry I sometimes find it hard to express myself.Well here goes.
Should either of us put money in an at risk company I am sure we would loose it.Ker and the likes KNOW the RISKS and make sure of the security backing any loan made.That is their career.They make sure of the security and are first in line for repayment while you and me would miss out,torchlight and epic are funds that perpectual run.should they go bust there would be little effect on PGC.

LOGAN read,read ,read.then ask.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You expressed yourself well. My apologies for the uninformed posts; will endeavour to do more reading.

[percy]

You expressed yourself well. My apologies for the uninformed posts; will endeavour to do more reading.

Logen thank you,keep up the posts we are all learning.I have learnt a lot from posters,it is not all one way.However should you not understand a company or feel uncomfortable with the answers ,sell.Try to back your own research.

[mouse]

:mellow:
https://www.asbsecurities.co.nz/section15.asp

Many thanks Silverlight. Fees are a bit too high for me, but useful information. The next question is why their lending people did not know. Quite appalling really. Another reason why Marac Bank could do rather well.
What bothers me a lot is the Lemming-like policies of NZ business. All lend or few lend. The old system of bank managers who knew their customers was in my opinion far superior to a call centre in The Phillipines. Hopefully Marac will be old school.:)

[zigzag]

You expressed yourself well. My apologies for the uninformed posts; will endeavour to do more reading.

Logen. Did you actually read the prospectus for the capital raising? If you want to do some more reading, then pages 43 & 44 will explain the relative roles of PAM and Torchlight.

[mouse]

Mouse. I enjoy reading your posts and like the fact that you are passionate about the things you have invested in. Too much passion can sometimes cloud ones judgement. Banks do lend to businesses. Due to the recent credit crunch, they have just tighten the noose. The time will come in the future where banks will start to lend like there is no tomorrow again and forget there was a financial market crash. If you have a good relationship with your bank they are more flexible.

Dont forget that high risk lending usually end up when tears with the market turns. The recent fall of finance companies is prove of the risk in lending to high risk ventures.

Take a look at this site.

Failed Bank List
http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html

The list is impressive. I suspect a major amount of the banks failed due to housing loans! Many thanks Dr Who.
I have put the list into my favourites file. Did not know if I should use my Money folder or the Poverty folder!

[Balance]

You expressed yourself well. My apologies for the uninformed posts; will endeavour to do more reading.

Something you will not find easy to find and read - George Kerr is still sitting on a paper loss of over $35m on his PGC shareholding. Plenty of incentive for him and the Gould family to get PGC right, second time round!

[Balance]

Mouse. I enjoy reading your posts and like the fact that you are passionate about the things you have invested in. Too much passion can sometimes cloud ones judgement. Banks do lend to businesses. Due to the recent credit crunch, they have just tighten the noose. The time will come in the future where banks will start to lend like there is no tomorrow again and forget there was a financial market crash. If you have a good relationship with your bank they are more flexible.

Dont forget that high risk lending usually end up when tears with the market turns. The recent fall of finance companies is prove of the risk in lending to high risk ventures.

Take a look at this site.

Failed Bank List
http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html

Means bugger all. Everyone knows about US banks falling over - even the biggest had to be rescued.

What is important is to now pick the ones who are going to survive, prosper and then invest.

Westpac Bank nearly went broke in the early 1990s. It had to be recapitalised just like PGC. Kerry Packer was involved from memory.

Share price got down to $3.00 and today it is $35.00 and it has paid a dividend every year.

Those who were brave and bought then are enjoying a dividend yield of over 35% pa.

[zigzag]

Sorry, I was trying to be funny ... A second kiwi bank ... i.e. NZ doesn't have many banks and another one would be nice and they would leverage off each others advertising as being kiwi banks (and not Ocker ones).

I had a funny feeling you weren't being serious, but I ignored it, as one does now and again. Besides, Marac wouldn't be the second Kiwi bank, as we also have TSB and SBS(Southland Building Society) Bank.

[percy]

PGC MARAC mentioned www.chrislee.co.nz click on click here to enter,then go to market news,click on to that,then scroll down.

[Balance]

Torchlight in perspective :

Excerpt : "In another story, PGC's Torchlight Credit fund has announced it is willing to extend the $75m prior charge secured credit facility it granted the company in October, and offer the company further liquidity support by buying assets from it. This is likely to mean that this friendly vulture is considering buying senior tranches of SCF's loan book, leaving SCF with the highest risk tranches. This is how the company can turn first ranking positions into second ranking positions and get some cash in the door and keep the show on the road a little longer. Whether it will be advantageous to the SCF and its guarantor would be a different question."

PGC's game plan becomes clear. Clever huh?

[mouse]

:)This is a rather mysterious article. Which seems to indicate that SCF is woefully short of cash. The trouble is, I do not understand the figures or argument. Would someone please like to look at the article and attempt an explanation. I am sure it is not Gibberish, but what language it is I do not understand. :confused:

[Balance]

:)This is a rather mysterious article. Which seems to indicate that SCF is woefully short of cash. The trouble is, I do not understand the figures or argument. Would someone please like to look at the article and attempt an explanation. I am sure it is not Gibberish, but what language it is I do not understand. :confused:

Send us a link, matey and we will have a look.

[Dr_Who]

Torchlight in perspective :

Excerpt : "In another story, PGC's Torchlight Credit fund has announced it is willing to extend the $75m prior charge secured credit facility it granted the company in October, and offer the company further liquidity support by buying assets from it. This is likely to mean that this friendly vulture is considering buying senior tranches of SCF's loan book, leaving SCF with the highest risk tranches. This is how the company can turn first ranking positions into second ranking positions and get some cash in the door and keep the show on the road a little longer. Whether it will be advantageous to the SCF and its guarantor would be a different question."

PGC's game plan becomes clear. Clever huh?

Interesting and very clever indeed.

What is the valuation on the SCF loan book (NTA) that Touchlight is funding? Also, do you have a list of the assets? I wanna do some numbers myself. Cheers

[Balance]

Interesting and very clever indeed.

What is the valuation on the SCF loan book (NTA) that Touchlight is funding? Also, do you have a list of the assets? I wanna do some numbers myself. Cheers

The real point to note here is that Touchlight has a first ranking priority fully secured security over ALL of the assets of SCF - $75m against $2.3 billion of assets.

Touchlight will only lose money if SCF loses $2.225 billion of assets first.

Not a snow ball's chance in hell.

Meanwhile, PGC gets to cherry pick SCF's best assets to add to its portfolio.

[whatsup]

The real point to note here is that Touchlight has a first ranking priority fully secured security over ALL of the assets of SCF - $75m against $2.3 billion of assets.

Touchlight will only lose money if SCF loses $2.225 billion of assets first.

Not a snow ball's chance in hell.

Meanwhile, PGC gets to cherry pick SCF's best assets to add to its portfolio.

Bal---, Things at SCF must really really really have been in a sorry sorry state for them to agree to a loan of this type in the first place , I personally cant see that this was/is the realistic situation for this to be tha case,,, somethings not quite the case here, A H is just not that despirate to agree to these conditions.

[Balance]

Bal---, Things at SCF must really really really have been in a sorry sorry state for them to agree to a loan of this type in the first place , I personally cant see that this was/is the realistic situation for this to be tha case,,, somethings not quite the case here, A H is just not that despirate to agree to these conditions.

Those are the facts.

Excerpt from Timaru Times 30 Oct 2009 :

"The $75 million Torchlight credit line, which has been fully drawn down, is likely to be relatively short term and possibly costing South Canterbury "double-digit interest" (more than 10%) as Pyne Gould "took its pound of flesh".

"There is a possibility Pyne's could take a stake in South Canterbury and make moves toward a merger or similar arrangement. They could see plenty of opportunity for an alignment."

He said "what may not be obvious" was the $75 million Torchlight fund had a "prior ranking charge", meaning the loan ranked ahead of all other obligations, including those to debenture and deposit holders.

"This prior ranking should offer a very high level of security to Torchlight," Mr McIntyre said.

Before taking on the Torchlight facility, South Canterbury had $34.1 million in existing prior ranking charges and now will have $109.1 million, with a capacity remaining of about $52 million, which the company could borrow against.

"Torchlight may well be the `fund of last resort'. But no-one else has stepped up to take the high ball," Mr McIntyre said.

Mr Kerr, in a statement for Torchlight Credit Fund, said "investments that are perceived to be too difficult for banks often create opportunities for fund managers. The fund has been established to focus on exactly this type of situation."

Amen.

[Anna Naum]

Note recent size seller seems to have been dealt with. After pounding the price at 44/45c it has now bubbled up to 47c.

[mouse]

Send us a link, matey and we will have a look.

Sorry, I have tried to find a link to insert but cannot locate one. So it is in todays Press, Bruce McKay, page A12, South Canty Finance comment. The argument is basically that the Capital Adequacy is not 11.9%, rather it is 1.2%. If true, then SCF is in major trouble. But I cannot understand the article. Or the table. Help!

[Balance]

Sorry, I have tried to find a link to insert but cannot locate one. So it is in todays Press, Bruce McKay, page A12, South Canty Finance comment. The argument is basically that the Capital Adequacy is not 11.9%, rather it is 1.2%. If true, then SCF is in major trouble. But I cannot understand the article. Or the table. Help!

Sorry, Mouse, would like to help but I have no access to the Press.

Maybe you scan and post?

[percy]

HI MOUSE.
,capital adequacy rules tough on risk,means $1 mil house may be valued at $650,000 $1mil PGC shares may be valued at $500,000 $1mil at bank may be valued at $950,000.
So article says SCF equity goes from $256,389,000 to $62,463,000 under new rules.
So AH needs to turn PGC shares into cash at bank.same $1m goes from being $500,000 to $950,000.note above is just an exercise to help explain. I am sure other posters will explain it better than I can do.

[percy]

SCF.AH has not done a runner.He is working to put it right.He is putting more of his assets into the company.He is doing the noble or the honorable thing.There is a lot of goodwill towards AH.
I was in Timaru last friday and could not help to see timaru as a busy place.Hilton Haulage trucks everywhere,Leo Lenard Motors full of commercial vehicles.All I would expect financed by AH.
PGC shareholders did not walk away and neither is AH.

[mouse]

HI MOUSE.
,capital adequacy rules tough on risk,means $1 mil house may be valued at $650,000 $1mil PGC shares may be valued at $500,000 $1mil at bank may be valued at $950,000.
So article says SCF equity goes from $256,389,000 to $62,463,000 under new rules.
So AH needs to turn PGC shares into cash at bank.same $1m goes from being $500,000 to $950,000.note above is just an exercise to help explain. I am sure other posters will explain it better than I can do.

:) Many thanks Percy. That is what I thought it said. So a book value asset or debt becomes substantially Downward Risk Adjusted, depending upon the nature of the asset or debt. It seems to me these adjustment percentages can also be adjusted themselves, depending upon the situation at the time. The new capital requirements may well wipe out many finance companies in NZ. South Canty Finance is in very deep trouble if what Bruce McKay has written is correct.

I do not have a scanner, being a bit limited with computers. I wonder if someone else could at least scan the calculations. I am not an investor in SCF, except through Pyne and that seems to be covered.

If what the article says is true, and I do not know if it is, then our shares are a quite fantastic hold. Since very few finance companies will be able to borrow cash from the NZ public. :)

We need to get a bit of informed discussion on the matter.

[Balance]

:) Many thanks Percy. That is what I thought it said. So a book value asset or debt becomes substantially Downward Risk Adjusted, depending upon the nature of the asset or debt. It seems to me these adjustment percentages can also be adjusted themselves, depending upon the situation at the time. The new capital requirements may well wipe out many finance companies in NZ. South Canty Finance is in very deep trouble if what Bruce McKay has written is correct.

I do not have a scanner, being a bit limited with computers. I wonder if someone else could at least scan the calculations. I am not an investor in SCF, except through Pyne and that seems to be covered.

If what the article says is true, and I do not know if it is, then our shares are a quite fantastic hold. Since very few finance companies will be able to borrow cash from the NZ public. :)

We need to get a bit of informed discussion on the matter.

SCF needs to sell a whole heap of assets or raise a whole heap of capital in a big hurry.

Meanwhile, Marac has just been granted the extension to the retail government guarantee to 2011.

Primed and ready to help SCF out of its problems by buying some choice assets.

[Anna Naum]

From todays Herald:

Meanwhile Torchlight, Pyne Gould Corporation's vulture fund which has a $75 million first ranking security over South Canterbury, also appears to be waiting in the wings to snap up any of the better loans South Canterbury may want to sell.

Stock Takes understands Torchlight has raised close to $100 million from institutional investors in preparation for taking advantage of the fallout from the finance company crisis.

[Balance]

From todays Herald:

Meanwhile Torchlight, Pyne Gould Corporation's vulture fund which has a $75 million first ranking security over South Canterbury, also appears to be waiting in the wings to snap up any of the better loans South Canterbury may want to sell.

Stock Takes understands Torchlight has raised close to $100 million from institutional investors in preparation for taking advantage of the fallout from the finance company crisis.

Convincingly answering the question of what PGC (post its own capital raising) can take advantage of and do in the post-depression market.

Article in Dom Post from Bruce McKay shows that SCF is going to have to raise $400m of new capital or get rid of all of its equity investments to be able to even remotely qualify for government extended guarantee scheme. Guess who is on the sideline waiting for the plump assets to fall into its laps?

[minimoke]

Sorry, Mouse, would like to help but I have no access to the Press.

Maybe you scan and post?
How is this

[mouse]

How is this

Brilliant Minimoke. It says it all. SCF has to move its capital cash from shares etc into Govt securities. A major sell-off.

[Balance]

Agreed - a major sell off is the only way out for SCF.

For a finance company, SCF sure has a lot of non finance assets - $639m worth!

And what on earth is tax assets?

[Dubdee]

Tax assets are refunds due from IRD or tax which has been prepaid. Compnaies often do the latter if they need imputation credits to attach to dividends

[geezy]

anyone know when will pgc start paying dividends again? those big chunky ones ?

[mouse]

anyone know when will pgc start paying dividends again? those big chunky ones ?

Sorry, geezy. No big chunky dividends in prospect. However, if you glance at my post on page 4, the aim is for a $2.00 stock in two years. Aims and results are of course sometimes a bit at variance. I would, totally out of the air, pick a 5 cent dividend within a two year period. Plus a share price of above $1.00 within two years.
Note that we need to conserve capital at all costs to prevent another 'unexpected' problem. So no big chunky dividends.
Having said that, the directors hold large lumps of shares and will be looking to get their equity back. Some have taken a fair hit. Others are of course in there for major profit. :mellow:

Hope this helps. Other comments most welcome. Mine are based on guesswork.

[Balance]

A director just disclosed buying another 700,000 shares at 47c and 48c. John Duncan's shareholding is now 2.89m shares.

Well, one thing I can guarantee is that there will be many posters here screaming 'insider', 'unfair advantage', 'rich gets richer' etc in the future.

Yet they have exactly the same opportunity.

Looking like RBD all over again - institutions stay clear while directors and management buy with their ears pinned back.

Remember with RBD that AMP sold its 10% at 57c in Jan 2009? They only left 250% behind on the table!!!!!

[kizame]

A director just disclosed buying another 700,000 shares at 47c and 48c. John Duncan's shareholding is now 2.89m shares.

Well, one thing I can guarantee is that there will be many posters here screaming 'insider', 'unfair advantage', 'rich gets richer' etc in the future.

Yet they have exactly the same opportunity.

Looking like RBD all over again - institutions stay clear while directors and management buy with their ears pinned back.

Remember with RBD that AMP sold its 10% at 57c in Jan 2009? They only left 250% behind on the table!!!!!

I like your input Balance, like reading your posts,they do tend to bring a balance to the equation.

[mouse]

Todays Press newspaper, page A13, has a report on SCF plus George Kerr plus Torchlight plus capital raising. Worth looking at. :)

[Balance]

Todays Press newspaper, page A13, has a report on SCF plus George Kerr plus Torchlight plus capital raising. Worth looking at. :)

Good assets in SCF go to PGC and Torchlight. Rubbish remains with SCF if SCF is to survive.

Meanwhile, I see one of the directors has bought 1m shares on market this month. Many years from now, he will be accused of being in the know even though there's plenty for others to buy as he is doing now.

[biker]

This sounds like a pretty positive story! An insight into why the PGC Director is buying?




NZX/MEDIA RELEASE



AA and PGC to launch new insurance joint venture to provide a
wider range of services to AA Members

24 March 2010

The New Zealand Automobile Association (AA) and Pyne Gould Corporation Limited (PGC)
today announced a joint venture agreement to provide a wider range of insurance services.
To be launched 1 April 2010, the joint venture will see the AA purchasing a 50% share of
MARAC Insurance Limited (MARAC Insurance). The decision comes on the back of a
successful vehicle finance partnership established last year between the AA and PGC
subsidiary, MARAC Finance Limited (MARAC).

MARAC Insurance is an established provider of mechanical breakdown, lifestyle protection
and guaranteed asset protection insurance products. Under the joint venture these products
will soon be able available to AA Members and AA authorised dealers. It is envisaged that
new products and services will be added over time with the first new initiative likely to be
providing business finance given that 20% of AA’s members own SMEs (Small to Medium
Enterprises).

AA Chief Executive Brian Gibbons said: “We have learnt more about each other’s businesses
and the needs of AA Members over the past year. The opportunity to provide a broader range
of services to AA Members was identified. A joint business venture was the logical way to
realise some of these opportunities.”

“These insurance products are backed by MARAC Insurance, a company trusted by New
Zealanders. We believe there will be strong demand for them and it’s our goal to develop
additional products and services in the future.”

PGC’s Chief Executive Jeff Greenslade said: “The AA is a premium and respected brand.
The joint venture is an exciting development that gives us the ability to tap into AA’s
substantial distribution network and membership base (totalling more than one million).”

“The AA’s members have virtually the same demographic as our target market which can best
be described as ‘middle’ New Zealand. With 38 AA branches from Whangarei to Invercargill,
this gives us a bank-like distribution network and fits with our strategy to become a niche
bank.”

Due to the success of the relationship to date, PGC (which includes MARAC and the
Perpetual Group) has also secured a five-year exclusivity agreement. This creates the
pathway to exploring opportunities of offering a range of financial services to AA Members.

The sale of a 50% share of MARAC Insurance to the AA will see PGC recognise a one-off
capital gain of $2.2 million. The Company remains on track to meet the Prospective Financial
Information (PFI) forecast of $20.9m for the full year to 30 June 2010.

- Ends

[Balance]

And another director disclosed today that he has bought 2m shares at 45c.

Looking more and more like RBD everyday - directors and management buying.

[biker]

Some day the MARKET may recognise the potential as WELL as the directors, especially this bit..


PGC’s Chief Executive Jeff Greenslade said: “The AA is a premium and respected brand.
The joint venture is an exciting development that gives us the ability to tap into AA’s
substantial distribution network and membership base (totalling more than one million).”
“The AA’s members have virtually the same demographic as our target market which can best
be described as ‘middle’ New Zealand. With 38 AA branches from Whangarei to Invercargill,
this gives us a bank-like distribution network and fits with our strategy to become a niche
bank.”

[geezy]

waitin to buy more but it keeps going up :D

[Balance]

waitin to buy more but it keeps going up :D

You are competing with directors and management buying.

Funny how when directors are buying, there's deafening silence from some of the posters.

When directors are selling, there's usually some sarcastic and dark comments etc.

[Grantas]

What interests me, is who is selling and why. Guess there's no way to tell.

[Logen Ninefingers]

What interests me, is who is selling and why. Guess there's no way to tell.

Maybe a lot of the original shareholders who thought they had to step in and support the capital raising otherwise they were going to be left with a heap of worthless shares, and now don't have the patience to wait for the company to turn things around and/or don't have the patience to wait for the share price to lift substantially from where it is now.

[Balance]

What interests me, is who is selling and why. Guess there's no way to tell.

Because they have not got the same view as the directors on the future of PGC.

[flyingfox]

Because they have not got the same view as the directors on the future of PGC.

also becasue in share market there's an opportunity cost for waiting, that's why i sell pgw even i know i shouldn't maybe.

[elZorro]

From the volume going in, these are serious purchases of PGC, a longer-term hold. I've been tempted too, getting a bit sick of shares that fluctuate up and down all the time. Is this one of the few NZ shares that Balance thinks is OK, not sure if that's a good reference or not.. :t_up:

BTW, pay no attention to my posts, I'm usually wrong.. make that on average slightly wrong :)

[Anna Naum]

also becasue in share market there's an opportunity cost for waiting, that's why i sell pgw even i know i shouldn't maybe.

Going to $1 plus over next 18 months/2 years so must be a very good investment to make this worth selling....what is it?

[geezy]

Going to $1 plus over next 18 months/2 years so must be a very good investment to make this worth selling....what is it?


prolly need the money for children's education, new house , new car etc :D

[Balance]

prolly need the money for children's education, new house , new car etc :D

Education = BEST investment.

[geezy]

pgc the best investment :D

[bung5]

It is anyones guess as to if there are any bad loans amongst the huge billion $$$ in finance receivables. Could be plenty more to knock down that NTA yet.

[macduffy]

It is anyones guess as to if there are any bad loans amongst the huge billion $$$ in finance receivables. Could be plenty more to knock down that NTA yet.

Not a guess, I'm afraid.

There are bound to be bad loans, it comes with the territory. The trick is to accurately estimate the provisions needed each year and to keep the write-offs below that figure. Then when things improve there's a write-back to boost profits. Great theory, difficult to achieve in practice!

[elZorro]

https://www.directbroking.co.nz/DirectTrade/dynamic/announcement.aspx?id=2479563

ACC is a substantial shareholder with 6% or more, I'm unsure if this holding has just been increased or decreased. This share certainly has plenty of offers on the buy side at a small discount. Nice to see.

[flyingfox]

Both PGC and PGW have this unusual stable pattern for long time..

[biker]

In the case of PGC, I think the market is in wait and see mode. George Kerr is a pretty low profile operator and I dont think the wider market really has a handle on what he is all about. It all boils down to results and if PGC can show they are performing, and the caution and uncertainty fades, the share price should react accordingly, but the jury may be out for a while yet.

[beacon]

ACC is a substantial shareholder with 6% or more, I'm unsure if this holding has just been increased or decreased.

ACC is holding. No increase or decrease reported in recent communication. Good to see NZX is beginning to have some meat in the way it communicates company disclosures now.

[basilcat]

When do you think PGC will lose its negative watch?

[beacon]

Watching director buying in the twin companies, my guess is it will be spring sooner than autumn. The big picture of growing Chinese interest in the agriculture space, as well as a growing global population and improving global economy gives me confidence. NZ can continue to build on its quality agricultural commodity exporter niche.

Some past decisions these twin companies made were less auspicious, but then hindsight is the better sight. I await Norgate's foresight, vision and prescience to bear fruit, but there is still a lot of hard yards to cover. Will these companies plough on to wealth creation or will they get distracted again from their core knitting? Personally, I removed them from our negative watch after capital raising. Waiting patiently ...

[basilcat]

Thanks Beacon,
Lets hope it is an early spring! I think it looks promising.

[geezy]

after following PGC for a couple of years, the volume generated these days is indeed interesting, i think we could be bracing for a much more aggressive PGC in the future.

[Grantas]

Perpetual Asset Management (a wholly owned subsidiary of PGC) has investments in Real Estate Credit (the ex Marac Property loans), EPIC (Thames Water and Moto Hospitality) and the Torchlight Fund. Torchlight Fund has been in the news with its loans to SCF of $75 million and $22 million and other investments in distressed property companies. My question is, where does Torchlight get the bulk of its funding from? and as a PGC shareholder do we get to see its accounts?

[percy]

Perpetual Asset Management (a wholly owned subsidiary of PGC) has investments in Real Estate Credit (the ex Marac Property loans), EPIC (Thames Water and Moto Hospitality) and the Torchlight Fund. Torchlight Fund has been in the news with its loans to SCF of $75 million and $22 million and other investments in distressed property companies. My question is, where does Torchlight get the bulk of its funding from? and as a PGC shareholder do we get to see its accounts?

Funds come from high net worth investors,who are impressed by Kerr,and who expect higher returns for greater risk.do not think we will see the accounts.Most probably just how well and how much Perpetual made.

[Balance]

Funds come from high net worth investors,who are impressed by Kerr,and who expect higher returns for greater risk.do not think we will see the accounts.Most probably just how well and how much Perpetual made.

Torchlight is in a way just another fund under Perpetual's asset management division. It is opportunistic and it is impressive that PGC has raised that kind of money so quickly.

Plenty of fees there for PGC.

Good for future earnings.

[COLIN]

Funds come from high net worth investors,who are impressed by Kerr,and who expect higher returns for greater risk.do not think we will see the accounts.Most probably just how well and how much Perpetual made.

And don't forget that Kerr was a Macquarie man, for quite a while - they specialise in millionaires, and he will have tons of connections.

[metal mickey]

'torchlight is not seeking retail investors at this point'. according to Mick Carolan, director of torchlight, when i enquired about it.
Also there is no mention of torchlight on perpetuals website, nor the real estate credit, only the EPIC is shown there so cant access the accounts for torchlight.
So i think you guys are right and the bulk of the funding is from wealthy buggers, and its managed by pertepual asset management.
However, the report to dec 31 p4 states that one of the reasons for the capital raising was to 'grow the perpetual asset management business by investing in EPIC and torchlight fund"
if so, HOW MUCH AND WHERE IS IT IN THE ACCOUNTS??
not sure if its perpetual asset management would have the investment as they manage it and would be a conflict, would it be the parent company? either way i cant find it in the accounts anywhere, but then im no legend at reading em. anyone else having any luck?

[percy]

MM ring the company and ask the company secretary.From my memory PGC brought Epic from g kerr for 18mil.epic or epam managed thames water and moto investments as well as owing 10%or there abouts.Epic was raising more money at the time to buy moto so PGC had to have more money to take up entitlement.AT the same time they advanced torchlight short term funding until torchlight investors came up with the funds.torchlight.real estate credit,epic are all funds managed by perpetual group.on page 15 you will see trustee services and portfolio management,which i would think is where you need to look.Kerr's history is of successful fund management.Would expect even more funds.there was talk the PGW shareholing would go into a separate rural fund.Kerr and the guys he has employed have a lot of skin in the game and a lot to prove.would seem to me they have the money,have the right people,the right contacts,the right objectives so we should not expect too long awaite for results.

[metal mickey]

good idea percy. my accounting skills are simply too basic to work out those rather complex accounts.
i picked up some PGC yesterday based on the recent recap director buying and 'skin in the game' kerr and co have and the impression i got from varoius news articles that PGC may be able to cherrypick the choice assets (if any) from SCF via torchlight. how this works im not 100% but certainly sounds promising, and i am watching with interest to see what happens. pity they didnt want my direct investment in torchlight, but i guess if it does well you would assume PGC will do well too.

[percy]

good idea percy. my accounting skills are simply too basic to work out those rather complex accounts.
i picked up some PGC yesterday based on the recent recap director buying and 'skin in the game' kerr and co have and the impression i got from varoius news articles that PGC may be able to cherrypick the choice assets (if any) from SCF via torchlight. how this works im not 100% but certainly sounds promising, and i am watching with interest to see what happens. pity they didnt want my direct investment in torchlight, but i guess if it does well you would assume PGC will do well too.

MM.
Well you now have skin in the game.Should you want to invest in torchlight I think you have done the right thing by letting PGC know.Epic should you want to invest direct I am sure Perpectual or
any sharebroker would be able to help you,.If not ring Barry Johnson at Macquaries in CH_CH.As a joke you could walk into Perpectual and say you have just won powerball and you donot know what to do with $12mil.!!!
Marac will continue to produce good returns. Torchlight lending to SCF should as you pointed out give first right to the choice bits.
I go to www.stocknessmonster.com for my watch list.If you type in NZX PGC then go to news 2009 the 23 september presentation should help you.or you could go back a few pages on this tread.Mouse and others have made good posts.If you have a good go at the accounts one of the managers will help you.I have rung company"s and found all helpful, so long as you have given them a good go..

[Grantas]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/business/3591260/South-Canty-in-dark-on-white-knights-moves

NZ Credit Fund ... Another fund? ..I'm getting confused as to who owns what and more importantly who's liable for what if the proverbial hits the fan.

[percy]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/business/3591260/South-Canty-in-dark-on-white-knights-moves

NZ Credit Fund ... Another fund? ..I'm getting confused as to who owns what and more importantly who's liable for what if the proverbial hits the fan.

Do not Know who is liable. but if a fund loses money then those who have invested in that fund lose money.Perpetual as fund manager would most probably still collect management fees.It would appear that Perpetual has part ownership of some funds.I suppose a float to get them going.Whether they will keep part ownership we will either have to waite and see or get Mouse to ask them.

[mouse]

Do not Know who is liable. but if a fund loses money then those who have invested in that fund lose money.Perpetual as fund manager would most probably still collect management fees.It would appear that Perpetual has part ownership of some funds.I suppose a float to get them going.Whether they will keep part ownership we will either have to waite and see or get Mouse to ask them.

An amusing true story is that at the time things were in meltdown, I phoned up PGCorp and spoke to the Accountant. "What about this, what does that mean? I find accounts a bit of a problem, where is the gizmo? What is the actual assett value per share?" Etc. I then said to him, I suppose you have many investors querying accounts. His reply quite astounded me. "In my entire working life as an accountant, I have only had around ten queries in total of accounts." It may of course have been PGGWrightson. They were in meltdown too. The moral is simple, if we have a problem, we should ask the Company.
An exception to this is NZWindfarms. I posted, 'if the turbines refuse to work, can we easily replace them with imported turbines of a similar size and use the existing towers and concrete bases.' Bluntly, I do not know. Nor it seems do other investors in NWF. Disclosure, I do not have any shares in NWF. But if I did I would be asking that question. Since the whole windfarm may have to be demolished and start again!

[percy]

I think it gives a good insite to a company how they treat an inquiry.I have just had a pleasant expirence with an Aussie company.I emailed the MD on Friday with my concern over their current liabilities far exceding their current assets.Looked to me they were shortly going to run out of money and would either have to go to shareholders or go into receivership.Well I received an email from the company secretary this morning which was full and to the point and more than covered the question I had asked.I ordered a parcel of shares straight away.A couple of years ago I was looking at Methven.Cannot remember what I wanted to Know but as MD did not return my call I never brought Methven shares. If MD can not organise his office donot expect him to organise his company.Simple.

[gonzo56]

What a deal, your guaranteed to make money at this cheap price; 45c

[mouse]

A whole lot of light on the Torchlight Fund in The Press, C22 Businessday, May 8th, from Marta Steeman. Could someone please put a link up for the article so we are all as knowledgeable? She is totally in the dark. For almost half a page.

[Anna Naum]

Pyne Gould Corporation Management Appointment

10 May 2010

Pyne Gould Corporation announced today that Mark Mountcastle has been appointed to the position of Chief Risk Officer. Mr Mountcastle replaces Grant Atkinson, who resigned from the Company after an extended period of leave. Mr Mountcastle has held the role of Acting Chief Risk Officer in Mr Atkinson’s absence.

Pyne Gould Corporation’s Managing Director Jeff Greenslade said: “Mark is ideally suited to the role of Chief Risk Officer with his extensive background in risk management from more than 20 years in the finance and banking sector in New Zealand. In this position, he is responsible for managing the business’s credit, market, liquidity and operational risks. Mark’s skills in this area along with his banking experience from working for ASB and Westpac will be invaluable to us as we move towards our goal of applying for a bank licence.”

- Ends -

Hope this guy understands risk a lot better than the last guy!!

[percy]

Pyne Gould Corporation Management Appointment

10 May 2010

-

Hope this guy understands risk a lot better than the last guy!!

Lets hope so!!!!The standard of recent appointments seems to be very good.

[Balance]

A whole lot of light on the Torchlight Fund in The Press, C22 Businessday, May 8th, from Marta Steeman. Could someone please put a link up for the article so we are all as knowledgeable? She is totally in the dark. For almost half a page.

Marta actually believes that the private and wealthy investors who invest via Torchlight want her to know how the fund works and invests in?

She should try asking the Blackrock hedge fund how they operate?

[percy]

The way Marta writes I doubt she has ever owned a share.I rang editor a few years ago on her coverage of an AGM.She certainly did not report what was said.When Neil Berris and Alan Williams wrote articles you learnt something.They covered AGMs well.I read NZ Herald on line before I read the Press newspaper.So being in the dark for half a page comes as no surprise.
Mouse next meeting you go to let us know if you think the Press correctly reports it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

PGC's only trading at 0.44c at the moment....that's the lowest it's gone for a while....it's in the doldrums.

[percy]

PGC's only trading at 0.44c at the moment....that's the lowest it's gone for a while....it's in the doldrums.

Most probably remain in the doldrums until annual result is announced late July or early August.

[percy]

Marta actually believes that the private and wealthy investors who invest via Torchlight want her to know how the fund works and invests in?

She should try asking the Blackrock hedge fund how they operate?

In this mornings Press Marta shows she is learning.In article headed Torchlight Fund " loan to Hubbard bolsters alliance" she states"SCF would grant Torchlight Fund a prior ranking charge over its assets.That means the notes rank ahead of debenture holders'.
"Torchlight is one of the funds managed by PGC's new assat management business,Perpetual Asset Management","Torchlight is a private equity fund which has raised funds from Australian and NZinvestors."
PGC is seeding some of the funds.The seeding amounts were very small.

[Anna Naum]

Great announcement today, looks like a real winner.

http://www.pgc.co.nz/_upload/news/Merger%20Proposed.pdf

[Lizard]

But where to place the bets? What does PGC end up with if Marac goes to CBS - shares in CBS? Seems to me the value is mostly in the future opportunity for the merged entity, so would want to be positioned for that.

[whatsup]

Seems to me as though PGC is positioning to take out SCF and merg all of the parties into a bigger enity ie Bank PGC !

[Snapper]

Seems to me as though PGC is positioning to take out SCF and merg all of the parties into a bigger enity ie Bank PGC !

If they're serious about forming a bank that people will actually put their hard-earned into then I would think they would stay well clear of SCF. Their loan book is going to have to be squeaky clean if they want to attract deposits in this environment.

[Arbitrage]

Is there really room for another retail bank in NZ?

Looking at how long to get going and how much it has cost to establish kiwibank, you have to wonder about this. The cynic would have to look at alterior motives and loan book redistribution would have to be one.

[Dr_Who]

Is there really room for another retail bank in NZ?

Looking at how long to get going and how much it has cost to establish kiwibank, you have to wonder about this. The cynic would have to look at alterior motives and loan book redistribution would have to be one.

You are on to it and I am one of the cynics.

[percy]

Is there really room for another retail bank in NZ?

Looking at how long to get going and how much it has cost to establish kiwibank, you have to wonder about this. The cynic would have to look at alterior motives and loan book redistribution would have to be one.

YES Plenty of room,we all hate the Aussie banks.The three already have the customer base.Best entry will be PGC as they will be the drivers of the deal.

[gonzo56]

Traders wishing to sell at 49c has halfed in value today. (on Direct Broking)
Will PGC offer shares for the new entity to their shareholders at a special deal..
How will the initial market placing work?

[macduffy]

Is there really room for another retail bank in NZ?

Looking at how long to get going and how much it has cost to establish kiwibank, you have to wonder about this. The cynic would have to look at alterior motives and loan book redistribution would have to be one.

The new bank would start with the advantages of the depositor bases, staffing and branch networks of CBS and Southern Cross and to that extent would have an easier time of it than Kiwibank which started from scratch, albeit with the potential of the Postshop network to work off.

The steady progress made by the likes of TSB Bank and Southland BS indicate that there is room for well run, localised banking operations provided their management is up to the job and assuming that they don't start life handicapped by dodgy lending.

[Anna Naum]

Seems to me as though PGC is positioning to take out SCF and merg all of the parties into a bigger enity ie Bank PGC !

Nope


New bank won't rescue SC Finance: CBS
12:14 PM Tuesday Jun 1, 2010

The proposed merger of Pyne Gould Corporation's Marac, Canterbury Building Society and the Southern Cross Building Society to create a "heartland" bank based in Canterbury won't be the white knight for struggling South Canterbury Finance, CBS CEO Bryan Inch says.

Inch told interest.co.nz talks between the three parties had been ongoing since he became CBS's CEO in October 2008 and had got more serious this year.

Discussions incorporated "pretty well all" the main players in the non-bank financial sector.

However, many of the other market players were still mutuals and would need to consider demutalisation if they were to join the trio, Inch said.

Asked if there had been any suggestion of including South Canterbury Finance in the tie-up Inch said "not at all".

"No, they have to sort themselves out," Inch said.

[macduffy]

Traders wishing to sell at 49c has halfed in value today. (on Direct Broking)
Will PGC offer shares for the new entity to their shareholders at a special deal..
How will the initial market placing work?

No idea really but shareholders and/or account holders of the three entities would probably get preference if any IPO is oversubscribed.

[whatsup]

Nope


New bank won't rescue SC Finance: CBS
12:14 PM Tuesday Jun 1, 2010

The proposed merger of Pyne Gould Corporation's Marac, Canterbury Building Society and the Southern Cross Building Society to create a "heartland" bank based in Canterbury won't be the white knight for struggling South Canterbury Finance, CBS CEO Bryan Inch says.

Inch told interest.co.nz talks between the three parties had been ongoing since he became CBS's CEO in October 2008 and had got more serious this year.

Discussions incorporated "pretty well all" the main players in the non-bank financial sector.

However, many of the other market players were still mutuals and would need to consider demutalisation if they were to join the trio, Inch said.

Asked if there had been any suggestion of including South Canterbury Finance in the tie-up Inch said "not at all".

"No, they have to sort themselves out," Inch said.

So its to be called "Canterbury Bank" or "Canterbury Banks"

[Arbitrage]

Check out the investment analysis http://file.nzx.com/000/256/3761256.pdf

For a "Heartland" bank most of its loans are in Auckland and Canterbury.

[mouse]

Check out the investment analysis http://file.nzx.com/000/256/3761256.pdf

For a "Heartland" bank most of its loans are in Auckland and Canterbury.

It seems to me, looking at the above pie charts, that PGG Wrightson could benefit from the reduction in presence of Pyne Gould in the Rural Sector. Just an idea.
Next, we are looking at the 'opportunity', almost certainly, to subscribe for further shares. At a discount of course, but unfortunately costing cash! And the time line is pretty short for the bank to be approved and operational. Further the prospect of dividends before the bank has been running for twelve months look remote to me. Will I be 75 or 84 years old before a Dividend appears? Or coal is mined at Pike. Which should I gamble on? :ohmy::p:mellow::confused::eek2:

[GTM 3442]

Will I be 75 or 84 years old before a Dividend appears? Or coal is mined at Pike. Which should I gamble on? :ohmy::p:mellow::confused::eek2:

Just do what you'd do at the races Mouse - ten bucks each way, as well as ten bucks on the favourite ?

[basilcat]

Good outfit. Already use their services. And you get an answer without their having to go to someone in Aus who reads the tea leaves or Bangalore to have lessons in ESL.

[Logen Ninefingers]

PGC - licenced to bank???....it could take years to get the banking licence. The wind goes into the sails of the 'heartland bank' concept, and just as quickly goes out of them again.

[percy]

PGC - licenced to bank???....it could take years to get the banking licence. The wind goes into the sails of the 'heartland bank' concept, and just as quickly goes out of them again.

May not be wind in the sails but their profits will continue until then.Very much business as usual with great prospects.

[mouse]

May not be wind in the sails but their profits will continue until then.Very much business as usual with great prospects.
The problems is they have to get approvals and then merg three diverse businesses, all in finance but different areas, into one unit. Then find a suitable name. Since at least half of their business seems to be in the North Island.:confused:
Plus establish branches which can be a bit expensive. I think that SBS for example told me it cost them $1 million to establish a new branch. It may be more. :confused:
On top of that we have to pay the costs of all of this. Now maybe it has to be done, in fact it is probably absolutely necessary. But it all costs cash.
Some profits will of course continue, but the problems of change are very great. Costs oodles of cash. Plus valuable staff can get lost in the process. I cannot see any dividend for at least twelve months after amalgamation. It may be quite a bit longer. Has anyone any idea on how long?

[percy]

The problems is they have to get approvals and then merg three diverse businesses, all in finance but different areas, into one unit. Then find a suitable name. Since at least half of their business seems to be in the North Island.:confused:
Plus establish branches which can be a bit expensive. I think that SBS for example told me it cost them $1 million to establish a new branch. It may be more. :confused:
On top of that we have to pay the costs of all of this. Now maybe it has to be done, in fact it is probably absolutely necessary. But it all costs cash.
Some profits will of course continue, but the problems of change are very great. Costs oodles of cash. Plus valuable staff can get lost in the process. I cannot see any dividend for at least twelve months after amalgamation. It may be quite a bit longer. Has anyone any idea on how long?

I donot see them rolling out banks like Kiwi Bank.Name should be no problem ,CBS,Heartland or Marac.Marac may still be the finance company of CBS.Merger should have cost savings.The combined company is looking to expand so not too many jobs should go.Plenty of oppurtunities to cross sell products.

[percy]

Not "should have". Will have huge cost savings on both administrative and funding costs.

As allways I stand corrected!!!
I do not see them as a high street bank.

[Jaa]

They already have a branch network in Canterbury (CBS) and Auckland (SCBS) and 40 distributors (SCBS) to go with Marac's own extensive distribution network. No doubt they will want to build that out but 4-5 branches a year even at $1m a pop isn't going to break the bank :p

The biggest hold up I can see is the law change to the building society act, why should the government change the law to suit these guys? Couldn't they just do a vote based on members rather than $$ invested?

[Anna Naum]

Marac-led bank has potential for investment grade rating: S&P

The proposed merger by Marac, Canterbury Building Society and Southern Cross Building Society could achieve an investment grade credit rating and will likely attract more partners, according to ratings agency Standard & Poor’s.
S&P director of financial institutions ratings, Peter Sikora, said that the proposed merger “has the potential to be investment grade” and will probably attract more partners into the venture.
“It’s going to be interesting to see the company structure,” Sikora said. “It could be over $3 billion pretty quickly.”

[Anna Naum]

Hubbard under investigation by SFO....has Mr Kerr been double duped?

[winner69]

Hubbard under investigation by SFO....has Mr Kerr been double duped?

Mr Kerr probably happy as .... might get things even cheaper now .... and remember he has first call on any SCF assets

[Anna Naum]

Mr Kerr probably happy as .... might get things even cheaper now .... and remember he has first call on any SCF assets

Well Mr Kerr usually wins so would be a surprise to see him come out of this 2nd best.

[percy]

Just when you think there is light at the end of the tunnel it is a bugger to find it is a train coming head on towards you!!
Kerr money in SCF is via Torchlight and I would agree with other posters that Kerr will come out with a profit,and his money intact.
What I am looking forward to is the structure of the new Bank.Cannot see Kerr giving up funds management {Perpectual} cannot see new bank wanting PGW.Cannot see PGC shareholders putting more money in.Will we see Marac merged with CSB etc but majority owned by PGC.?We certainly live in interesting times.

[winner69]

Just when you think there is light at the end of the tunnel it is a bugger to find it is a train coming head on towards you!! ........... Kerr money in SCF is via Torchlight

hey Percy .... maybe Kerr needs more than a torch

[percy]

hey Percy .... maybe Kerr needs more than a torch

Lets hope he is driving the train and AH is still in his VW!!!There is a story about the mechanic who put a VW gearbox in upside down or back to front,Ended up with 1 forward gear and 4 reverses.
Hope it is AH's.

[mouse]

Just when you think there is light at the end of the tunnel it is a bugger to find it is a train coming head on towards you!!
Kerr money in SCF is via Torchlight and I would agree with other posters that Kerr will come out with a profit,and his money intact.
What I am looking forward to is the structure of the new Bank.Cannot see Kerr giving up funds management {Perpectual} cannot see new bank wanting PGW.Cannot see PGC shareholders putting more money in.Will we see Marac merged with CSB etc but majority owned by PGC.?We certainly live in interesting times.
Things get curioser and curioser. It always happens on a weekend! The MARKET must not get a fright on Tuesday at 11.00am! What happens at the end of this is really sad. For a start, trust in South Island finance companies, read Pyne Gould for that, is somewhat reduced. Say to zero? Since this must have the ripple effect. I DIDNT SEE IT COMING. Which does as a good excuse for the first problem that is encountered. HOWEVER, is this the second or third major shock? How many can we stand. Since we are not dependent upon shareholders, what I am talking about is the retail investor. Which is where Pyne Gould must get lots of cash from. Borrowing short term, lending long term. The ingredients of a bit of a do. We can sell PGGWrightson but that is about all we have that is not vital to the business. As an alternative, we could have a Board shakeup. Restructure to release value. Concentrate on our Core Business.

Personally, I favour the Cook Islands. Google 'Shekinah Homes' and get a very nice beach bungalow at Bella Beach. Eat at Trader Jacks and come back in six months when its hot at the Cooks and cooled down in the South Island.

[winner69]

Can't seem to trust anybody with our money these days can we mouse

This is serious action for the Companies Office to take .... and to get the SFO involved means they have some substance to their concerns .... and nobody wants to be tainted with criminal investigations so they

Alan controls Southbury and Southbury owns SCF .... hard to imagine Alan being in a position to make any decisions around the (pending) recapitalisation of SCF eh

Last year it was the guys from the Viaduct who was to blame for the mess ... so SCF said .... betcha the guys at the Viaduct cafes and bars are laughing like hell now .... could never trust the mainlanders they said .... and Hubbard and that stockbroking firm out of Dunedin will be on their hit list

[percy]

Can't seem to trust anybody with our money these days can we mouse

This is serious action for the Companies Office to take .... and to get the SFO involved means they have some substance to their concerns .... and nobody wants to be tainted with criminal investigations so they

Alan controls Southbury and Southbury owns SCF .... hard to imagine Alan being in a position to make any decisions around the (pending) recapitalisation of SCF eh

Last year it was the guys from the Viaduct who was to blame for the mess ... so SCF said .... betcha the guys at the Viaduct cafes and bars are laughing like hell now .... could never trust the mainlanders they said .... and Hubbard and that stockbroking firm out of Dunedin will be on their hit list
Some things are hard to come to grips with.I felt so let down when I found out my movie star hero Rock Hudson was gay.Then when Jim Clark the racing driver was killed I realised how dangerous motor racing is.Now I have to get to grips with AH having feet of clay.Too upset to join the Viaduct guys!! I am running out of heroes.Even hear people have doubts about Warren Buffett.Just too much.!!!

[bull....]

Be interesting to see if money was fiddled into SCF from these other entities ? , anyway puts a big dent in hubbards reputation , lucky he has a good mate in Kerr or he would have gone down months ago.

[Anna Naum]

Be interesting to see if money was fiddled into SCF from these other entities ? , anyway puts a big dent in hubbards reputation , lucky he has a good mate in Kerr or he would have gone down months ago.

Sandy Meir would have found it before now, and remember SCF accounts are audited by E&Y so it would be a lot harder to 'cook' SCF than it is with a private trust

[Anna Naum]

Statement from Hubbard:

"I am writing to you following recent action by a Government department.
"I have operated Aorangi Security as a mortgage company for over 30 years and during that entire period interest has been paid quarterly and the clients have suffered no loss of capital and have a prompt return of capital.

"The current position of Aoarangi is approximately as follows:

"Mortgage and loans owing to Aoarangi: $126 million

"Cash at bank: $2 million.

"This adds to $128 million.

"Client desposits $88 million which means a surplus of $40 million.

"The $40 million surplus belongs to myself and family and all our equity has been subordinated to client interest, ie, the Hubbard family stands any loss before clients do.

"The Crown seems to believe that your capital is at risk under my management and have appointed a statutory manager whose job is to realise all the loans and repay you your capital. This will take time as it is not possible for borrowers to repay loans at short notice.

"There are sufficent funds on hand to pay interest due at June 30.

"If for any reason you do not receive your capital back in full and provided it is within my resources I will meet any shortfall.

"I extend my personal apology for what has happened.

"I am sorry that this action was taken by a government offical with little consultation with myself and can only conclude that the government official has been misguided in his action.

"In the past month I have been working on finding a solution to South Canterbury Finance affairs and hope to arrange an agreement with an overseas company, subject to confirmation by June 30 to inject a large amount of capital which would place South Canterbury Finance in a secure position for the future.

"As you will have read in the media in February last I introduced $150 million of assets into South Canterbury Finance to ensure that there was an equity for preference shareholders and that they suffered no loss.

"I don't believe in the history of New Zealand that any person has acted more honourably than myself." Allan Hubbard, June 2010.

[Dr_Who]

I recall Hangover everyone thought they would get 60 cents in the dollar. Reality is a bitch.

[Snapper]

If there is any substance to this then all power to the Securities Commission. My initial suspicion was that any 'wrongdoing' has been blown out of proportion by Jane Diplock desperate to redeem her reputation as an effective securities watchdog. Time will tell.

[Grantas]

Down a cent to 42c, been a while since it sunk to this level.

[percy]

I certainly hope AH statement is proven right.I have allways thought of him as an honest man.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Apart from Torchlight connection, what's any of this Alan Hubbard stuff got to do with PGC? 2 different companies aye. Is the SP taking a hit because there is a perception that Hubbard and PGC are in some way in the same basket here? SCF weren't mentioned in connection with the new 'Canterbury Bank' proposal. Seems weird to be tainting PGC and their thread with this discussion about Hubbard and statutory management.

[bull....]

Its premature to speculate i guess but from an investors point of view we need to - you say how can this hurt pgc but i speculate if somehow money found its way from hubbards companies to him personally and then to SCF then that money is at risk of being claimed back from SCF , then to speculate further if SCF dont have money to cover this shortfall then what does the govt move in as well on SCF.
If this happens torchlight will be affected wont it?.
All speculation of course but as an investor we must consider all possibilites.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Its premature to speculate i guess but from an investors point of view we need to - you say how can this hurt pgc but i speculate if somehow money found its way from hubbards companies to him personally and then to SCF then that money is at risk of being claimed back from SCF , then to speculate further if SCF dont have money to cover this shortfall then what does the govt move in as well on SCF.
If this happens torchlight will be affected wont it?.
All speculation of course but as an investor we must consider all possibilites.

Surprised that it is now being considered that there could be negatives given that in a previous discussion the opinion was overwhelmingly that:
1/ All money lent to SCF by Torchlight was absolutely as safe as if it was inside Fort Knox.
2/ PGC being chummy with Hubbard was absolutely right-on.
3/ Posters were positively drooling over the prospect of PGC swooping in vulture-like and picking off the choice assets of SCF like so much prime meat off a carcass.

Now that events take a dire turn, everyone is suddenly feeling nervous.

[Dubdee]

Torchlight has a prior ranking charge ahead of all debenture and bond holders. For it to be effected you would have to say all SCF assets were dud

[bull....]

I think allied farmers shows what can go wrong by picking over carcuses.

[mouse]

I certainly hope AH statement is proven right.I have allways thought of him as an honest man.
There are a number of ways of looking at this.
First, my mate the Solicitor. I used to visit him in Paparoa Prison. In for 5 years or so. Took the clients trust account cash and, worse of all, was caught. Pounced on him like a cat on mouse. Pretty frightening. Locked up with the rif-raf. As he said, I had to work all hours since no-one could ever look at my books. Otherwise it was all over. So be very careful if people work sun up to sundown. Either they are stupid workaholics, or have lots to hide.

Second. Your brain needs to rest. Good ides, and a change of plan even, come from a blue sky. I remember sitting in St. Andrews Church, Hong Kong. Hot. The fans were fanning. The sermon droned. the lights swung like pendulums. I thought, that is the solution! Did not rip my clothes off, but I had a major solution to wiring blocks of flats. Dont bother to connect the wires! Will save us oodles of cash. It did. When someone PAID us for a telephone, we connected the wires. But not until. Very simple.

Third, go on holiday. Excellent fun. I spent all my HK cash on holidays. Best investment ever made. What Alan Hubbard needs to do now is just that. Leave the office to the full time staff and let them earn their cash.

Fourth, this is a disaster for all South Island Finance Companies. And by extension South Island Business. We will all be asked to stump up more cash. To pay debt and put in more funds. There will be a general re-rateing of debt again. Finance Companies, and Solicitors Trust Accounts, will be viewed with suspicion. Once Govt takes a big hit on its Guarantee Scheme then it may well abandon it.

May you live in Interesting Times.

[Balance]

I think allied farmers shows what can go wrong by picking over carcuses.

You will be surprised how relaxed and comfortable Rob Alloway is with the Hanover write-downs.

Read the NBR from a couple of months ago and you will know why.

Don't be fooled by superficial statements made by uninformed posters who would not know an asset from a liability.

[Balance]

Torchlight has a prior ranking charge ahead of all debenture and bond holders. For it to be effected you would have to say all SCF assets were dud

At least $800m of good and performing quality assets according to Sandford Maier, CEO and ex-statutory manager of DFC.

Guess which company is getting ready to pounce on these assets.

The naivety of some commentators beggars belief!

[bull....]

You will be surprised how relaxed and comfortable Rob Alloway is with the Hanover write-downs.

Read the NBR from a couple of months ago and you will know why.

Don't be fooled by superficial statements made by uninformed posters who would not know an asset from a liability.

Rob Alloway may be relaxed about the situation but investors I would imagine are not.
The market has marked the shares down 60 odd % since they took over Hanover so who do you think is right the market or Alloway?

[percy]

I would think with so few finnance still in business Marac would be doing great business,and with low interest rates their margins would be good.not to many weeks away before we have a result.I would expect them to be on track.Divie possible?

[Breastwork]

"South Canterbury Finance has had its credit rating cut from B+ to B- by Standard & Poor's on concerns the statutory management of owner Allan Hubbard's interests will damage investor confidence."

[bull....]

Pgc just broke support at 43c if it closes below 43 new lows are possible.

The fallout if SCF goes bust would probably affect Marac as well in my view so you got torchlight and Marac which could be affected from all this.

[Logen Ninefingers]

SP now at 41c in early trading.

[Dr_Who]

Time to face reality.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Q. Guess who's waiting to swoop in and control the assets if SCF falls over?
A. A statutory manager appointed by the Govt.

[Balance]

George Kerr & directors will be grinning from ear to ear.

More cheap shares for them to tuck away.

[Balance]

Time to face reality.

George Kerr says : "Thanks, matey. Keep up the good work. Cheaper the better. I still have 4.7% to buy before I hit 20%. Last lot cost me 50 cents."

[percy]

George Kerr says : "Thanks, matey. Keep up the good work. Cheaper the better. I still have 4.7% to buy before I hit 20%. Last lot cost me 50 cents."

You have it right again balance.Fear and greed makes markets.Winners and losers.G Kerr has a record of winning.He brought at 50cents to make money.

[Balance]

You have it right again balance.Fear and greed makes markets.Winners and losers.G Kerr has a record of winning.He brought at 50cents to make money.

Word is that directors and management bought today.

George Kerr wishes to personally thank Dr Who for his grand effort in talking sp down. "Thanks again, matey."

[Dr_Who]

I think allied farmers shows what can go wrong by picking over carcuses.

Yep. Dont you love people that follow the "smart" money. Did someone mentioned PVO? Ooops! Pied Piper.

[percy]

Yep. Dont you love people that follow the "smart" money. Did someone mentioned PVO? Ooops! Pied Piper.

I am very sure the "smart" money in PGC is" Real smart"money.These guys have a history of being "Real smart",and as no announcement yet, none of us are being very smart with our guesses.
Uninformed at best.When the announcement comes in 4 to 6 weeks then we may be able to coment sensibly.

[Balance]

I am very sure the "smart" money in PGC is" Real smart"money.These guys have a history of being "Real smart",and as no announcement yet, none of us are being very smart with our guesses.
Uninformed at best.When the announcement comes in 4 to 6 weeks then we may be able to coment sensibly.

Percy, don't mind Dr Who. He is hurting badly. Check out the ELD thread and you will get an appreciation of how arrogantly ignorant he is when he 'invests' in the market. Asked him a simple question about fundamentals and he tried to bluff his way - ouch!

Anyway, we are off topic - my sincere apologies. I believe George Kerr and directors will downplay PGC until they are well and truly set in the stock. No big hurry.

[percy]

Percy, don't mind Dr Who. He is hurting badly. Check out the ELD thread and you will get an appreciation of how ignorant he is when he 'invests' in the market.

Some os us actually made some money on PVO before it flamed out.

Anyway, we are off topic - my sincere apologies. George Kerr and directors will downplay PGC until they are well and truly set in the stock.

I have followed that tread and as I try to be honest and helpful with my posts,have held my tongue.I am sure he is a very successful investor and will put this stock behind him and go onto more success.I have never meet a successful investor who has not made a big mistake with a stock.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I have followed that tread and as I try to be honest and helpful with my posts,have held my tongue.I am sure he is a very successful investor and will put this stock behind him and go onto more success.I have never meet a successful investor who has not made a big mistake with a stock.

Yeah, sounds like this George fella bought a bunch of stock in this company and the SP fell away on him. No doubt he'll cut his losses and up sticks, but you live and learn and he'll get over it and probably win big with his next investment.

[mouse]

I find this disaster mode really stimulating. Who will fall over the cliff next? Will the Chinese buy? What about SCF, how long will it last? Bets being taken now. Please state your prognosis and for which Finance Company. Will our Bank get airborne? How will all this air turbulance affect a flying bank? No point in insulting posters, just lets take a few educated guesses.

[percy]

Yeah, sounds like this George fella bought a bunch of stock in this company and the SP fell away on him. No doubt he'll cut his losses and up sticks, but you live and learn and he'll get over it and probably win big with his next investment.

No Logen,This George fella has his skin,his family's skin,his mates' skin in there.This is his next investment.It will work.Put the money up,put in the good management,have a strong brand in Marac,be in a business with little competion and the results will come.

[bull....]

The results to be released soon mean nothing as its history you need to plan for what may eventuate in the next 12 mths.
May I suggest a risk matrix.

[percy]

The results to be released soon mean nothing as its history you need to plan for what may eventuate in the next 12 mths.
May I suggest a risk matrix.

Offcourse you are correct,however I am looking for the result to comfirm they are on track.I would think any listed company would be guarded in their projections for the next 12 mths.This business has strenghtened their balance sheet,brought in new management,new board,developed Perpertual Trust,so I would expect a positive result.I also feel the tide is turning for the investment in PGW.The result will show one of 3 things;1 they are going backwards.2 they are standing still,or 3 they are going forward.I expect they are going forward.What I will be looking to see is the speed they are going at,and indications this speed will increase.

[mouse]

But Percy, will it reach take-off speed?

[percy]

But Percy, will it reach take-off speed?

I say my prayers every night!!!!

[gonzo56]

hahaha, percy, ridiculous

[percy]

hahaha, percy, ridiculous

And I include you in them for putting me onto PHB.I brought some.

[gonzo56]

ah, sorry mate, I feel ya

[percy]

ah, sorry mate, I feel ya

No, No ,No. I am pleased to have brought PHB and I am" poised for the upturn " in PGC SP.

[Logen Ninefingers]

No, No ,No. I am pleased to have brought PHB and I am" poised for the upturn " in PGC SP.

Upturn? Surely you must realise that the debt crisis in Turkmenistan will be bringing a wave of panic selling to global markets later this week????

[percy]

Upturn? Surely you must realise that the debt crisis in Turkmenistan will be bringing a wave of panic selling to global markets later this week????
"
Thanks Logen.I am now immune to bad news. Just when I think it cannot get worse, it does!! Even my wife will not refer to my broker by name, but calls him the "sharemonger"!!

[Logen Ninefingers]

Sorry to be a prophet of doom but the market is sensitive to any tiny reverberations occurring anywhere in the world.

[mouse]

:) The Market can act irrationally for longer than we can stay solvent. :mellow:
:ohmy: Are we now into the Long Recession? :scared:

[Logen Ninefingers]

We are into The Long Manipulation, where NZ is like a little cork bobbing on the great ocean of world events. It's the yo-yo effect. The bears are everywhere......and that's no bull. Putting your cash into the markets is like putting your hand into a meat grinder, because others are making the mince while we feel the pain. Bot-traders, or 'Autobots' as some (me) call them, short-selling, naked short-selling, market manipulation, related party deals, favours for favours, debt crisises, panic selling, (panic buying?)........don't ever think for one minute that the market is about ensuring that companies get access to fresh capital & that capitalists get access to fresh markets and that fresh capitalists get to market their access......that's the rot they feed you. It's about getting money from the mute, dumb & innocent into the hands of the cold-eyed and deadly reptillians.

[elZorro]

We are into The Long Manipulation, where NZ is like a little cork bobbing on the great ocean of world events. It's the yo-yo effect. The bears are everywhere......and that's no bull. Putting your cash into the markets is like putting your hand into a meat grinder, because others are making the mince while we feel the pain. Bot-traders, or 'Autobots' as some (me) call them, short-selling, naked short-selling, market manipulation, related party deals, favours for favours, debt crisises, panic selling, (panic buying?)........don't ever think for one minute that the market is about ensuring that companies get access to fresh capital & that capitalists get access to fresh markets and that fresh capitalists get to market their access......that's the rot they feed you. It's about getting money from the mute, dumb & innocent into the hands of the cold-eyed and deadly reptillians.

Some nicely crafted words there LN, wish I could write like that. And more than a grain of truth and hard-earned wisdom there I think.

Further up this thread there is mention of the strong Marac brand owned by PGC. I was looking for some 2nd-tier finance about 10 years ago. Marac couldn't help this time, but I had an interesting discussion with a Hamilton rep. The guy who (at that stage) was getting Marac off the ground and doing quite well, had remembered the first failed finance company Marac, and asked the people who had shelved the brand (the receivers?) if they wanted it. He picked it up for a good price, and set off. All around him were surprised and enthusiastic about how well it was going.

There have been quite a few well-loved brands that have been scuppered since. Blue Chip for example. I realise that Marac is the brand put in front of two or three longer-serving finance houses, but it does pay to always remember the short histories behind some businesses. No matter how much good advertising they are running.

[COLIN]

Some nicely crafted words there LN, wish I could write like that. And more than a grain of truth and hard-earned wisdom there I think.

Further up this thread there is mention of the strong Marac brand owned by PGC. I was looking for some 2nd-tier finance about 10 years ago. Marac couldn't help this time, but I had an interesting discussion with a Hamilton rep. The guy who (at that stage) was getting Marac off the ground and doing quite well, had remembered the first failed finance company Marac, and asked the people who had shelved the brand (the receivers?) if they wanted it. He picked it up for a good price, and set off. All around him were surprised and enthusiastic about how well it was going.

There have been quite a few well-loved brands that have been scuppered since. Blue Chip for example. I realise that Marac is the brand put in front of two or three longer-serving finance houses, but it does pay to always remember the short histories behind some businesses. No matter how much good advertising they are running.

As a matter of interest, I guess that not many of the present generation are aware of where the name MARAC arose: Manufacturers And Retailers Acceptance Corporation. See, I know, aren't I clever!

[percy]

As a matter of interest, I guess that not many of the present generation are aware of where the name MARAC arose: Manufacturers And Retailers Acceptance Corporation. See, I know, aren't I clever!

Thanks Colin I never knew that.
Interesting announcemencet today; PGC has contributed $15mil to Torchlight with the balance provided by third parties."Our facility,being secured ahead of other charges under the Trust Deed,is particularly robust,and our investment is well secured and profitable".

[bull....]

I think 15m exposure someone else mentioned on this thread , anyway they must be getting worried about the share price collapse to make this announcement.
It probably an attempt to deflect share collapse on this issue when it probably more to do with how Marac will be affected going forward , the merger of the 3 sth island entities if it goes ahead probably saves marac the fate of most finance companies in the long run. If SCF goes bust probably speed the demise of the whole sector but wont change the fate.
Only my opinion.
The world is changing thats for sure.

[percy]

Yes I think PGC would be worried with the SP dropping with people thinking they were in trouble.In the past few months Marac has done a good deal with AA,they have strenghtened management,and they have moved the banking licence forward.Since time began there has been a market for finance companies.Allways will be people needing to borrow money for a good idea,new machinery,a better car or whatever so I see a bright future for Marac.It looks as though CSB and SCBS will merge then buy Marac by issuing shares to PGC.No need for PGC to raise further funds. PGC will end up the largest shareholder in Heartland Bank or whatever name it is.
With the Chinese taking a large holding in PGW,and PGW adding so much strenght to their board,company better focused,and farmers in stronger position I think PGC's holding is well positioned for the upturn,
Who would have thought Kerr would have raised 85mil for Torchlight so quickly and got it working.
The last few months this company has far exceded their projections.I see the company stronger than it was and think the future is bright.

[bull....]

Share slide is gathering momentum if you look at the charts it has been agressively sold since beginning of May - draw your own conclusions.

[winner69]

Surely not skeletons in this cupboard as well .... esp with Marac being so well respected and highly thought off according to some

[Logen Ninefingers]

1/ Stock is in a down-trend.
2/ You must never buy into a down-trend. Don't ever buy into a down-trending stock. The last thing you should ever do is buy into a down-trending stock. Don't fight the market. You will lose. The market will win.
Conclusion: no-one's going to buy into this stock; the down-trend will continue til the end of August, at least.

[percy]

1/ Stock is in a down-trend.
2/ You must never buy into a down-trend. Don't ever buy into a down-trending stock. The last thing you should ever do is buy into a down-trending stock. Don't fight the market. You will lose. The market will win.
Conclusion: no-one's going to buy into this stock; the down-trend will continue til the end of August, at least.

Yes you are right.I have lost too much money in the past buying in a down trend.With result due I am holding off buying more. Will wait and see it,then decide.

[gonzo56]

I’m confused...
Can someone please explain why this is being sold off?
It hasn’t been this low before, so that means whoever is selling will be loosing out on a lot of money. Why not ride it out? They either have no balls, or know something we don't..