Where to from here (Career advice - a *little* off topic)

[theArtfuldodger]

Heya guys,

Ok, this thread is a little off-topic, but I was hoping that perhaps I could find someone on here (qualified CA's / CFA's / Financial analysts) who could provide me with some advice.

I'm about to go into my third year at Uni, and am at a crossroads. My first two years here have been a bit experimental: I was not fully decided about the career path I wished to pursue, so I tried a bit of law, science and business and now I am 100% sure - commerce is the discipline for me!

Anyway, as I was saying, now I'm at a crossroads. These are my options:

A) Complete a BCom in Finance and Accountancy + PostDipGrad; or
B) Complete a BCom(hons) in Accountancy.

My problem, in essence, is deciding between a Honours accountancy, and having some Finance in my degree. Do you think it would be more beneficial having a BCom(hons) in Accounting or just a straight BCom in Finance AND Accountancy? I can't do a BCom(hons) in both, because it would take too long.

Some stuff I'd like considered:

- Earning capacity
- Generaly usefullness/versatility to a prospective employer
- Enjoyment
- Career opportunities (would I be looked on more favourably with a Hons degree in just Accounting, or a plain BCom in Finance AND Accounting)

After consulting with the associate professor, he told me that if I'm compeletley professionally career orientated (I am), then I should go for option A (straight BCom in Finc and Acc). He suggested that Hons was more for the academics who wish to do research.

Despite his recommendation, I am still not so sure. I imagine discussing accounting issues and doing some research for the Honours year would be very interesting. BUT, I am also extremely interested in finance (and if I do hons, I will do considerably less finance).

Any advice?

Thanks guys; I realize this is a bit off topic... but I figured this forum would be a good source of advice from people with actual experience.

[Corporate]

My choice would be option A

I did Accounting and Commercial Law + Dipolma Professional Accounting. If I had got into finance papers before my 4th year I would have complete a major in it too.

Also depends what sort of accounting you want to get into?

Just wait to you get to sitting PAS/PCE2 :eek: :eek:

[steve fleming]

I agree, Option A.

It keeps your options open, and doesn't pigeon-hole you.

I was invited to do hons in Acctng, but turned it down. Ended up with a BCom in Fin and Acctng, and a BA in Econ. Worked out OK.

Now, i often get to look over the CVs and interview grads. Generally, its the academically well rounded grads (i.e. can confidently discuss various disciplines) that present the best.

[theArtfuldodger]

Thanks for the advice guys. In regards to the area of accounting I'm wanting to get into, I think I'm going for a public advisory role (hopefully with my own practice, eventually), or forensic investigation (I believe there is a bit of a shortage in this field and I'm also really into the law side of things).

[shasta]

Thanks for the advice guys. In regards to the area of accounting I'm wanting to get into, I think I'm going for a public advisory role (hopefully with my own practice, eventually), or forensic investigation (I believe there is a bit of a shortage in this field and I'm also really into the law side of things).

Make sure you get into a big CA firm for your "training years", it opens up your opportunities down the line ;)

I've done a bit of everything without ever really specialising in anything.

Get a good grounding & down the track contracting can be very rewarding

[theArtfuldodger]

Thanks Shasta. Also, do you agree with Steve and Corporate's recommendation? I'm thinking what they say makes sense. And with the professor recommending I give honours a miss too, perhaps it is best? I just want to make sure that when/if the big firms come headhunting, they come to me first.

[Corporate]

Make sure you get into a big CA firm for your "training years", it opens up your opportunities down the line ;)



I definitely agree with this comment. Don't buy into what people employeed by small firms say about the Big4!

[Corporate]

Thanks Shasta. Also, do you agree with Steve and Corporate's recommendation? I'm thinking what they say makes sense. And with the professor recommending I give honours a miss too, perhaps it is best? I just want to make sure that when/if the big firms come headhunting, they come to me first.

Don't sit back and wait to get "headhunted", apply for every interinship and grad program available.

If you've got good grades then focus on things outside the Uni/Acedemic space. Work experience, public speaking and being involved in sports/hobbies goes a long way.

A good CV/Grades will get your application in the door. But it is your personality and ability to communicate with college, clients and Partners is what will get you a job.

[sharer]

ArtfulDodger
Don't worry so much about all that Finance stuff - it's only money!
Go for Honours - when you are 20 years older you'll be glad you did.
Oh, and get a decent haircut.

Best of luck! :cool:

[theArtfuldodger]

Lol thanks for clearing that one up Sharer. Deciding what haircut to wear to interviews was keeping me up at night :p

Ok guys, this is great. I'm getting the idea. BCom, keeping as broad as possible, get involved and build on my experiences and try get in on the Big 4.


Go for Honours - when you are 20 years older you'll be glad you did.


Any justifications as to why I'll be greatful I did Honours in 20 years time Sharer?

[shasta]

Thanks Shasta. Also, do you agree with Steve and Corporate's recommendation? I'm thinking what they say makes sense. And with the professor recommending I give honours a miss too, perhaps it is best? I just want to make sure that when/if the big firms come headhunting, they come to me first.

Yip absolutely, but don't get too hung up on honours this, & getting headhunted, you have to ultimately sell yourself!

Big firms don't just look for those with the highest grades, they also look for people with all round skills who will fit in with there culture. ;)

I had just over 8 years with PwC & your personality gets you in the front door, not having the best grades.

I'm in between roles at the moment, having done a bit of contracting the last couple of years.

Edit: I see Corporate has already posted what i have. Clearly he knows how to play the game!

[stone small green]

since u have interest in finance, I guess it wouldn't hurt for you to be looking at the CFA level one exam, which open the door to become a charted financial analyst which will help you with everything you want.

[marknz88]

Grades aren't everything either.

I went along to EY's summer intern intake day this year (applied for audit internship) and had a good chat with the everyone there. Got on really well with the partners who interviewed me and they actually helped me change my mind about my career path (my personality didnt suit auditing and I have actually moved totally away from accounting in general now)

So like said above, apply for the summer internships...its a lot easier to get into the big four once you graduate if you get one and it also allows you to get a taster for what a full time role in your service line might be like. In saying that however they do take a lot of graduates.

They are looking for a certain kind of person however (deloitte look for quite a different candidate than EY do and then KPMG also look for a different type of person). Well roundedness is a must. Thats what helped get me my interview (not my grades in accounting)

Also re accounting honours for your fourth year. Most people I know are doing post grad diploma's. From what I've heard and understand, honours in accounting doesn;t help in the real world as such. Its more for those looking to enter academia.

[shasta]

Grades aren't everything either.

I went along to EY's summer intern intake day this year (applied for audit internship) and had a good chat with the everyone there. Got on really well with the partners who interviewed me and they actually helped me change my mind about my career path (my personality didnt suit auditing and I have actually moved totally away from accounting in general now)

So like said above, apply for the summer internships...its a lot easier to get into the big four once you graduate if you get one and it also allows you to get a taster for what a full time role in your service line might be like. In saying that however they do take a lot of graduates.

They are looking for a certain kind of person however (deloitte look for quite a different candidate than EY do and then KPMG also look for a different type of person). Well roundedness is a must. Thats what helped get me my interview (not my grades in accounting)

Also re accounting honours for your fourth year. Most people I know are doing post grad diploma's. From what I've heard and understand, honours in accounting doesn;t help in the real world as such. Its more for those looking to enter academia.

Actually those devoid of a personality probably make better auditors :D

Who REALLY wants to do audit :confused:

[CJ]

Agree with all comments above. Good grades alone wont get you into a big 4 but bad grades definately wont - though you have been accepted into honours so this probably isn't an issue.

Audit is good if you want to move out into CFO type roles. Corporate finance is where the big money is so doing a double major with finance wouldn't be a bad idea.

[upside_umop]

Gidday,

May I ask what university your at? Could make a difference in your choice on the above options.

I'm in my honours finance year at Canterbury and wouldn't recommend doing it unless you have a relatively good maths background. Its quite tough, and it does stray away from the likes of 'applying the CAPM.'

I also do an accounting honours paper which is interesting. You certainly dont need honours to get into the big four but it can help showing your ambition. Most of my accounting buddies who are in big four are just the standard 4 years. Make sure you get your liberal papers (for entry to NZICA)...it does apply at your university right?

Stone small green makes a good point at looking into your CFA level one...I havent, but will pursue it in the future.

Re: Auditing. Its good if you want to travel...how ever boring it may be!

[steve fleming]

Corporate finance is where the big money is so doing a double major with finance wouldn't be a bad idea.

Totally agree.

I always recommend to accounting/finance grads that want to get into corporate finance to start with at least 2-3 years in audit/ BAS to get qualified and to work on their technical accounting skills.

Then, when qualified, move across to the corporate finance division of their accounting firm, where they can learn valuation, transaction advisory and due diligence skills.

A combination of decent accounting skills and corporate finance experience will set your career up perfectly.

[buns]

If you want to study about some guy creating double entry accounting with a bone against a cave wall do Accy hons. The Gdip lets you choose some specialist areas in accounting, or outside - go for that.

Why does everyone see the Big 4 as the only option? Me for one never considered them. They are super hierarchical and in my books groom you to there needs, and quite often pigeon hole some grads.

The other thing is what kind of person are you - as we are on share trader I'm assuming you have interest in competition and corporate activity. Do you like to work for yourself/your own company? Or don't mind solving accounting issues for other companies? If so go big 4.

There summer programmes will give you a good taste of it, but I find a lot of grads getting lured in from the excitement of that first job and don’t consider other possibilities after the summer programmes.

[sharer]

...Any justifications as to why I'll be greatful I did Honours in 20 years time Sharer?

O my Artful Dodger unit!
Because there is such painful deficiency of Honour in so many of the fields infested by beancounters!
The current global financial crisis is noticed in passing. All of it apparently caused by graduates of programmes and internships just like the temptations now dangling before you :)
Other options will of course be more lucrative - indeed the less Honour intrudes the greater quantities of lucre likely to engulf you.

Now about your Honours studies, dear young Dodger, stay right away from from the bean enumeration departments. What i'm thinking of for you is that more good will come from studies of Poetry, Philosophy, and in your case, the literature of English. It will make you even greatfuller.

[shasta]

If you want to study about some guy creating double entry accounting with a bone against a cave wall do Accy hons. The Gdip lets you choose some specialist areas in accounting, or outside - go for that.

Why does everyone see the Big 4 as the only option? Me for one never considered them. They are super hierarchical and in my books groom you to there needs, and quite often pigeon hole some grads.

The other thing is what kind of person are you - as we are on share trader I'm assuming you have interest in competition and corporate activity. Do you like to work for yourself/your own company? Or don't mind solving accounting issues for other companies? If so go big 4.

There summer programmes will give you a good taste of it, but I find a lot of grads getting lured in from the excitement of that first job and don’t consider other possibilities after the summer programmes.

Because i've worked in both a big 4 & a 2nd tier CA firm previously, & to be honest being in the 2nd tier firm was a waste of my time!

I've sinced worked for a private energy company, & done contract work for both a charitable organisation, & a large crown entity :rolleyes:

Being exposed to different aspects of accounting, insolvency, tax (& audit ...gulp) etc in a big 4 opened up the opportunities i've had.

[CJ]

Why does everyone see the Big 4 as the only option? Me for one never considered them. They are super hierarchical and in my books groom you to there needs, and quite often pigeon hole some grads. They will give you the best training. After you have your CA, by all means go elsewhere but having the big4 training on your CV is a must.

Re you pigeon hole comments, it is the opposite. You will work on a range on clients wheras if you work at a corporate, you only know that corporate.

[theArtfuldodger]

Sharer, you're a douchebag. By 'greatful' [sic] I clearly meant 'grateful'. Some of us don't find it necessary to review our posts to the extent that they are completely devoid of all grammatical and spelling errors, as we assume that people will get the gist of what we are trying to communicate regardless of minor spelling mistakes. Clearly, with idiots like you on this forum, we need to be more careful and not make such rash assumptions. Spend your time offering useful and valid advice instead. I'm going to assume any advice offered by you sir, is contradictory to what is generally being said merely for the sake of being just that - contradictory, and is henceforth discredited (and because you failed to provide any relevant justification for your advice, as i requested, which suggests that you either didn't understand the question, or that the advice is, as I suspect, groundless and about as useful as flatulence passing from out between one's arse cheeks).

To everybody else:

Thank you once again. I like the idea of doing the DipGrad. With more finance in the mix it means that at the end of the 3rd year I can make a decision about whether I want to pursue the CA or the CFA (i.e. - DipGrad in Accountancy or Finance, respectively). I've looked into the graduate programmes and I'm really liking the look of Ernst and Young. PwC looks good too.

In reply to upside_umpo: I'm at Otago =)

The only reason I was interested in Honours was because it seems to promote a lot of discussion and debate about the subject matter, which is the way I tend to learn best. I'm sure I'd get this in the intern programmes though too.

PS -

Sharer, no hard feelings. Kiss kiss now ok? Just try not to be such an A-class asshole in future. Such childish behaviour is below this forum, and I refuse to indulge in it.

Love, TAD.

[wbosher]

Such childish behaviour is below this forum, and I refuse to indulge in it.

But you did. ;)

[theArtfuldodger]

...further. =p

[sharer]

... ... ... ... ...Love, TAD.
As you said, "we assume that people will get the gist of what we are trying to communicate", but some may not. And, "we need to be more careful and not make such rash assumptions." I'm sure my own posts are only rarely "completely devoid of all grammatical and spelling errors," so i must brace myself for further ripostes.

"I was interested in Honours .. because it seems to promote a lot of discussion and debate about the subject matter, which is the way I tend to learn best." As it should indeed, especially now we are at university. But, is that what's happening, so far? I share your (previous?) interest in honours study for similar reasons.
But i have failed, as you say a TAD forcefully, to get your eyes raised to any distant horizon. Even as a light hearted temporary diversion from your mad rush towards voluntary corporate servitude!
You say you ".. like the idea of doing the DipGrad. With more finance in the mix .." and it seems "really liking the look of Ernst and Young. PwC looks good too." Possibly a tad prematurely, if your examiners don't share your vision. Or if i happen to be on your interview panel, thought of that?!

So you have it settled already then, you're presently at university, surrounded by scholars and bright students, but you don't actually want a university education at all, you just want to get rich, yes?
Life is so unfair. I know so many young people who would love to have this opportunity to learn things they might never have dreamed of, beyond the constricting bounds of a mere trade training.
But its your life, you will remember in 20 years or so, & i sincerely wish you all the riches money can provide you with, and a happy journey as you go in pursuit of it. I hope i have not once again "failed to provide any relevant justification for [my] advice", it is so hard to be sure when confronted by a student determined not to like poetry (beyond an unfortunate rhyme).

Thank you for the generous offer: "Kiss kiss now ok? "
I'd like to say yes, but i'm worried about the beard rash. Will you shave ?

[sharer]

I'm sorry ArtfulDodger, i forgot to congratulate you on this:
"Last edited by theArtfuldodger; Yesterday at 03:21 PM. Reason: Cleared up some spelling errors for SHARER's benefit."



This is welcome progress, just as we would hope for in the future head of one of our financial enterprises. Well done.

[theArtfuldodger]

You do realize Sharer that I was completely willing to take you advice on board? I'm learning here, and to get advice from people with experience, such as yourself, is invaluable to me. I was very interested to know why you were advising me to consider Honours, contrary to everybody else's advice.

Quote: "Any justifications as to why I'll be greatful [sic]I did Honours in 20 years time Sharer?"

But all I was met with was a rude generalization concerning my overall spelling ability and intelligence based on a completely unrepresentative mispelling (in passing) of a single, trivial word. You can't expect me to simply not retort. Your writing style is somewhat cryptic (Indeed, poetic -I think you will consider this a compliment?), and requires a bit more thought than simply taking it at face-value (minus the whole 'greatful - grateful' bit, that was unnecessarily facetious). I realize this now.

I don't expect respect for my contributions to the forum, because admittedly I know relatively little, but I do expect respect in the sense I won't be made to look stupid, when you yourself admit to making the occasional typo.

Ok, what are we talking about here? Typos? This is stupid. Lets forget it.

I appreciate your input Sharer and, with your last post, I now understand why you believe Honours should be considered - there is more to the world than money and an Honours course, while not necessarily resulting in better career prospects, will certainly give me a more enriching experience and understanding of my field. Thank you for your input and, if it means anything at all, I am actually leaning towards Honours at the moment for that very reason (still implementing 'core' finance papers however) but hopefully still secure an internship with one of the large professional firms.

[shasta]

You do realize Sharer that I was completely willing to take you advice on board? I'm learning here, and to get advice from people with experience, such as yourself, is invaluable to me. I was very interested to know why you were advising me to consider Honours, contrary to everybody else's advice.

Quote: "Any justifications as to why I'll be greatful [sic]I did Honours in 20 years time Sharer?"

But all I was met with was a rude generalization concerning my overall spelling ability and intelligence based on a completely unrepresentative mispelling (in passing) of a single, trivial word. You can't expect me to simply not retort. Your writing style is somewhat cryptic (Indeed, poetic -I think you will consider this a compliment?), and requires a bit more thought than simply taking it at face-value (minus the whole 'greatful - grateful' bit, that was unnecessarily facetious). I realize this now.

I don't expect respect for my contributions to the forum, because admittedly I know relatively little, but I do expect respect in the sense I won't be made to look stupid, when you yourself admit to making the occasional typo.

Ok, what are we talking about here? Typos? This is stupid. Lets forget it.

I appreciate your input Sharer and, with your last post, I now understand why you believe Honours should be considered - there is more to the world than money and an Honours course, while not necessarily resulting in better career prospects, will certainly give me a more enriching experience and understanding of my field. Thank you for your input and, if it means anything at all, I am actually leaning towards Honours at the moment for that very reason (still implementing 'core' finance papers however) but hopefully still secure an internship with one of the large professional firms.

Just remember one little thing.

Pretty much everything you learn at University goes out the door when you start work. You pretty much start again from scratch!

Where ever you end up will have there own culture, procedures & systems.

It's more how you adapt to your working environment & grow in your role that will get you places.

Communication is the key, you need to be able to communicate effectively with a range of different people/situations.

Down the track, you'll learn the importance of "networking".

Also, something that took me a while to understand, was learning to "play the game".

That's not ass kissing, or excessive overtime, but learning how to go that little bit extra & showing ownership/responsibility in your role.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter where you work, it's who you work with

[sharer]

:)
October is upon us, & it is time to wish ArtfulDodger and other students in the forum all the best in completing their assignments and year-end exams.
With any luck you'll get in to some interesting & rewarding vacation internships. There's a heap of good advice & comments throughout this thread to help there, especially Shasta's last post.
And my congratulations to ArtfulDodger for having the gumption to start both this thread & the neighbouring one about tax questions. Couldn't help wondering sometimes what actual teaching is happening in those institutions,given the collective wisdom offered freely in this virtual university.
Of course the Young are wrong sometimes, but so are the Elders, with less possible excuse. It is always inspiring to see the occasional glimmers of insight dawning, and knowing young folk are still my hope for the future.
Even if they are unneccessarily rude sometimes. So get on with the swotting & nail all those tests.
Hopefully you also find time to do some of the undisciplined wild excursions that all young people should get up to while they still have the chance.
Be careful out there! I'm looking forward to refreshing arguments next year.:) Sharer

[theArtfuldodger]

Lol, ok mate. Glad we sorted that out. Thanks for the advice, and the 'best wishes' for tests etc.

Thanks to everybody else too! =) I've got an appointment with the Prof. next Tuesday, so I'll mention all your sage advice then. Also - and this is the best news - I've secured an interview with the partners of Deloitte for an internship/scholarship in a a weeks time. Very exciting. I'm practicing my interviewee techniques right now! Perhaps they (the partners) can offer me some direction too!

[sharer]

Don't forget the haircut.
And don't wear grey shoes.

And shades are out!

[shasta]

Don't forget the haircut.
And don't wear grey shoes.

And shades are out!

Subtle pin stripe suits are back en vogue ;)

[theArtfuldodger]

Hey dudes. Ok, so a bit of an update:

I had the interview yesterday, and have been offerred the scholarship on the following terms:

- 1k a year till the end of my degree;
- mentoring till the end of my degree;
- an internship at the end of degree;
- a job PENDING how I perform during the internship and IF they want me (they get grads the regular way through their graduate program too);
- half my tuition fees (ie - student loan) paid for IF I am offered a job.

The partners have given me time to consider this proposition. They will only award it to me officially IF I can be 80-100% sure I will make a commitment to them following the completion of my degree for about 4 years.

In summary: they are not obliged to give me a job but, if I accept, and they do want me, I AM obliged to work for them. I don't know if I like this.

Reasons against:

- I lock myself in and forsake other oppotunities (technically I could refuse to work for them at the end of the degree because they said the obligations are not contractual BUT I am not like this will personally feel 100% obliged to work for them - I dont believe in disappointing them);
- I am 'stuck' in Dunedin until I am 27 years old (this is the biggest disadvantage BUT I can think of worse places to work, and they do offer secondment opportunities).


Reasons for accepting:

- I have to do my training years somewhere and I will not be that marketable overseas until I have some experience and my CA anyway;
- Working at Deloitte will contribute considerable value and credability to my degree;
- I will have SOME sense of security (not a lot however, as a job is not promised);
- Perhaps the only place in NZ where Id rather work that Dunedin is Wellington anyway (Im not keen on Aucks or ChCh).

Hmm.

What do you reckon guys?

Thanks for all this advice. I mentioned everything you guys have already said to the partners, and they affirmed it 100% =)

[shasta]

Hey dudes. Ok, so a bit of an update:

I had the interview yesterday, and have been offerred the scholarship on the following terms:

- 1k a year till the end of my degree;
- mentoring till the end of my degree;
- an internship at the end of degree;
- a job PENDING how I perform during the internship and IF they want me (they get grads the regular way through their graduate program too);
- half my tuition fees (ie - student loan) paid for IF I am offered a job.

The partners have given me time to consider this proposition. They will only award it to me officially IF I can be 80-100% sure I will make a commitment to them following the completion of my degree for about 4 years.

In summary: they are not obliged to give me a job but, if I accept, and they do want me, I AM obliged to work for them. I don't know if I like this.

Reasons against:

- I lock myself in and forsake other oppotunities (technically I could refuse to work for them at the end of the degree because they said the obligations are not contractual BUT I am not like this will personally feel 100% obliged to work for them - I dont believe in disappointing them);
- I am 'stuck' in Dunedin until I am 27 years old (this is the biggest disadvantage BUT I can think of worse places to work, and they do offer secondment opportunities).


Reasons for accepting:

- I have to do my training years somewhere and I will not be that marketable overseas until I have some experience and my CA anyway;
- Working at Deloitte will contribute considerable value and credability to my degree;
- I will have SOME sense of security (not a lot however, as a job is not promised);
- Perhaps the only place in NZ where Id rather work that Dunedin is Wellington anyway (Im not keen on Aucks or ChCh).

Hmm.

What do you reckon guys?

Thanks for all this advice. I mentioned everything you guys have already said to the partners, and they affirmed it 100% =)

Sounds a pretty good deal to me, you're right you need a solid grounding, & having that security gives you a head start.

You can always transfer to Wellington down the line ;)

Think of the big picture, & that your next 5 years will set you up for bigger things down the track.

If it doesn't feel right to you, walk away from it - doesn't really matter where you start off, it's where you want to be in 5 years that matters

[stone small green]

agree with Shasta, although it's 4 years at least, u could that time to meet your CA requirement ( and maybe a CFA too! if u work hard)
at least it's with one of the big4s.
like Shasta said, there is always a chance to transfer, to welly or akl..