How much is your portfolio worth?

[MrDevine]

A cheeky question and some might not like to divulge this sort of information, but thought I'd ask anyway. (Phaedrus I'd love to know…)

Gaszprom posted recently on the BOW thread that he'd dealt 21 trades this week for a total of $270,000. This sort of figure is not much shy the value of my house. To me thats a lot of Rutherfords. It blows my mind.

Bermuda would have $2-3 million?

Full disclosure, the most stock I've owned amounted to $20,000 in early 2007 before I sold for a deposit on a house. A stellar run in BOW over the past 2.5 years turned $4k into $11,500 (sold a few for holidays along the way) I sold all my BOW over the past 3 weeks. I'm all out now and will probably pay down some debt. The mortgage sucks up most of my spare cash these days.

Will be saving for fresh powder though.

Ace, C.

[ENP]

Very cheeky question.

[troyvdh]

very cheeky.....my portfolio is down 6 % in the past few days...

[MrDevine]

Worth a try though?

[Dr_Who]

LOL... very cheeky. Not many will disclose their net worth.

Lets just say, my rural stocks have hit me for a negative 20-30% this year, but overall I have probably made 250 - 300% on resource stocks. So all up, still a pretty good return.

[MrDevine]

I'm not getting very far.

[h2so4]

2 cents :)

[soulman]

I'm not getting very far.

Tough one Mr. It's like the sensitive question, are you gay? You never gonna get a straight answer. There will be reply saying their portfolio is worth a few cents to a few bil. Give or take. All allegedly.

[Xerof]

Just had someone from G7 on the phone asking if I could take the IMF's place in funding Greece - they need to help Spain and Portugal out.........I told him to try Bermuda

[Penfold]

I must admit I too sometimes wonder what kind of sums, some of the people here deal in... I assume most are not big rollers because buying up some of the popular mining stocks here with large sums would move the price too much.

[troyvdh]

actually on reflection...some members have actually stated actual holdings...I know I have....

..me thinks that most of us know that Sir P is a .professional trader...

[Lizard]

The way to ask this question might best be as an anonymous poll with ranges (although there is no guarantee that the information as to how people voted isn't visible to admin). Also, you would need to define parameters - i.e. with or without leverage, total net worth or just in shares, including money traded on behalf of others or not etc.

Not sure if you'd get a better answer, but I don't think the information is terribly meaningful anyway. Maybe having lots of money might prove people are more knowledgeable regarding investing/trading, but (in my experience), it is not always the case. Some of the best people I know trade off what I'd consider a very small amount of capital, yet are very successful traders (just didn't have alot of capital to start with and need to pay themselves out of their gains).

[Skol]

Bermuda would have $2-3 million?

If the BUL chart is indicative it will be a lot less in the last few days.

[Ish]

I dont see what the big deal is really, unless you are especially wealthy and dont like to flaunt it- NZ has a bit of tall poppy syndrome.

People here are fairly anonymous.

In general older folk should have more. I had around $80k in bow but sold all on monday. So that would be nil now.

[JBmurc]

about 60k less than I had 3-4 weeks ago
my mate I invest money for in the markets will be happy started with 2.1m NZD between 8-12months ago it got upto 3.2m NZD in March we both agree the market had run well so I would sell down to hold only 1mill AUD of shares which I did with the last sale of TRY going through at 2.55 only days ago he invest alot of the funds in silver bullion(I'd say he would now be one of the biggest holders of silver bullion in NZ now) I couldn't have timed it better for him only wish I'd done better on my own shares over the last 2-4weeks should have gone with my gut (read some of my posts 3-5 weeks ago I was feeling real negative towards the US-UK markets) could should aaarrgggg........

[lissica]

About 400K, down from 450K a couple of weeks ago.

[lissica]

LOL... very cheeky. Not many will disclose their net worth.

Lets just say, my rural stocks have hit me for a negative 20-30% this year, but overall I have probably made 250 - 300% on resource stocks. So all up, still a pretty good return.

I too don't see the big deal- most of us on here are anonymous. And he didn't ask what your net worth was, only how much you have in your shareportfolio. No question about other investments, leverage etc.

My shareportfolio is unleveraged (learnt my lesson from the 2008/9), and I have a mix of it in cash and property.

[STRAT]

Worth a try though?Why Though?

The best advice Ive had on this site has been where $ and tickers arent even mentioned.
If there is anyone here big enough to move markets they wont be telling when they are doing it. The moment someone starts tossing $ figures about I instantly doubt their sincerity. There are a few that do. For the most part only percentages matter I reckon.

[gazprom1]

Maybe having lots of money might prove people are more knowledgeable regarding investing/trading, but (in my experience), it is not always the case. Some of the best people I know trade off what I'd consider a very small amount of capital, yet are very successful traders (just didn't have alot of capital to start with and need to pay themselves out of their gains).[/QUOTE]

Hey Lizard,

Agree with your comments about value of portfolio/ success. Some of the most successful traders on this site will have the smallest amount of capital due to the reasons you outlined. Obviously, some of the bigger traders will also be successful. Experience is very helpful provided the lessons learned are applied in the market. The older the investor will not necessarily mean the more capital they will have available in the market as MrDevine alluded to although this is more likely.

The site is relatively anonymous so do not see any reason why not to disclose portfolio value although I would find the average value of trades over a period analysis more interesting. Like another poster said, it is not asking for total net worth etc. You may have $5000 in the market and have a net worth of $40 million. I typically like to have $500k to $1.5 million in the market. Over $1.5 million and I look to take some money off the table and spend/ use it somewhere. The only reason for me to make money is to enjoy what the money can do for your lifestyle -no point in being the richest person in the cemetery. I trade anywhere between zero and around $400-500k per week. Trade sizes are always between $10 and $30k.

Going to be another down day on Monday unless some positive news comes out of Europe over the weekend.

GAzprom

[MrDevine]

I agree that percentages matter, whether you lose $100 or $10,000 is the same right? Well I think losing $10k on a 1% portfolio move, even for someone with $1m in the market, that's a lot. But then it's all relative.

Gazprom, I like your quote "The only reason for me to make money is to enjoy what the money can do for your lifestyle -no point in being the richest person in the cemetery" too true. Stocks are another revenue generator. I like to spend my profits. In my case from time to time I've brought contemporary art, and judging by recent valuations has done quite well. Art is more risky than shares, well who knows.

But hey, I would never have made my profits over the past 5 years without engaging with the conversation on this site.

[fungus pudding]

I'm not getting very far.

Well I'll help. I don't see the harm in this anonymous information. I am a commercial property investor and hold only a few shares - and only in property comanies (because I don't understand anything else). I have no mortgages left and for personal reasons, I don't want to borrow again. So to get rid of accumulating savings I purchased a few proportional titles and some similar syndicate structures in Australia, and to get the benefit of the PIE income, some LPT shares. The shares I hold have a value of $360,000. I doubt that I'll ever buy anymore though. I find the sharemarket just doesn't really interest me. (Probably still put-off by my one and only previous experience in 1987, when I lost a massive, frightening sum; these day I can weather a bit of a storm, but there is no way I would put more than a very small portion of my money at the mercy of company directors) My shares are down about 15% on purchase price currently. Mind you the tax advantage to a 38% tax payer, which I am on most of my income, makes up for a fair chunk of the capital drop. I think from now on the best thing I can do is spend - spend - spend; which is something I've never been much good at.

[tobo]

Gazprom,
you said "Trade sizes are always between $10 and $30k."

I think this is a most useful piece of info for me to get a feel for sensible trade parcels.
(I have had a few good gains on a tiny % of my total, and thought "what was the point in that". Although 20 bagger on $500 was still very nice)

[RRR]

Good thread. My portfolio-Shares-$50K, Pension fund-$32K, Kiwisaver - $6K, Overseas property-$100K. I also have a mortgage $150K($200K property)-my only liability.
Cheers

[Hommel]

Shares 640k (about 30k less than a week ago!), Super fund 115k, Kiwisaver 14k, Property 500k, about 130k in cash. No-where near enough to retire yet...

[Ish]

Shares 640k (about 30k less than a week ago!), Super fund 115k, Kiwisaver 14k, Property 500k, about 130k in cash. No-where near enough to retire yet...

Depends on your spending habits. Most people never reach this level of savings. I personally wish to be a millionaire in the future but have friends who are happy to have enough cash for food and little else!

[foodee]

Shares 640k (about 30k less than a week ago!), Super fund 115k, Kiwisaver 14k, Property 500k, about 130k in cash. No-where near enough to retire yet...

Retirement - the milestone target.
That also means debt free.

Some interesting figures
Assuming total living cost is $50,000 pa.
To get that one needs an income of $69,000 [38% tax rate]
To get that at say 5% gross return one needs just $1,400,000 invested!
The value of your residence is not in this.

Food for thought eh.:ohmy:

cheers

[CJ]

Food for thought eh.:ohmy:Depends if you want to leave with your capital intact. Otherwise, you could start with a smaller sum and slowly eat into the capital. Risky though as who knows how long you will live.

My portfolio - far to small. I am long term hold so dont trade.

[JBmurc]

Depends on your spending habits. Most people never reach this level of savings. I personally wish to be a millionaire in the future but have friends who are happy to have enough cash for food and little else!

I think in not that many years (if not now in some places) owning a nice house,couple of decent cars,plus usually extras debt free is now worth over a million in many places of NZ ----My first goal is to be debt free with the above hopefully before I'm 35

[fungus pudding]

Retirement - the milestone target.
That also means debt free.

Some interesting figures
Assuming total living cost is $50,000 pa.
To get that one needs an income of $69,000 [38% tax rate]
To get that at say 5% gross return one needs just $1,400,000 invested!
The value of your residence is not in this.

Food for thought eh.:ohmy:

cheers

Noit so. To get an income of 50,000 you don't need 69,000. The tax is low on the first bit. 38% only kicks in after 70,000.

[Dr_Who]

I think in not that many years (if not now in some places) owning a nice house,couple of decent cars,plus usually extras debt free is now worth over a million in many places of NZ ----My first goal is to be debt free with the above hopefully before I'm 35

You will find in Auckland that those that try hard to show their wealth are usually those that have non or using other people's money. Those with real net wealth do not need to show it, unless they are using it to lure potential investors into their projects.

[JBmurc]

You will find in Auckland that those that try hard to show their wealth are usually those that have non or using other people's money. Those with real net wealth do not need to show it, unless they are using it to lure potential investors into their projects.

Its not only Auckland there's many here I know of that are ticked upto the eye balls in debt just so they can have a new car,house etc---we own 3 cars but their total value would be lucky to buy a new one which is fine by me....getting out of renting an paying interest for that matter would be very sweet IMHO
no more landlord
no more banklord
more silver bullion an shares LOL

[troyvdh]

dear Dr....not only in Auckland does this exist....here in godzone (ChCH) the same exists....those who fluant it...I actually feel sorry for...myself and my wife (now seperated) have assests of around $2m...however i also have a mate who says $50m is required to be rich.
I have biked through Bolivia,Vietnam,Chile,Argentina,Nepal,Tibet.Croati a,Italy,China and a few others (and soon Tanzania).....i seriously think we have all got it wrong...man to those people smile and just live...it aint rocket science...how many personality disordered/anxiety stricken,eating disorded,attention deficit dosorderd.suicidal, antisocial folk live in these countries....is well worth considering...but me thinks not many... and finally to complete my rant....how many of those with "seemingly heaps" live in polycladded mansions (temporay)....need I say more....

[ENP]

How old are most of you guys?

30?

60?

[JBmurc]

How old are most of you guys?

30?

60?

we should do a poll I'm 32

[troyvdh]

53 and looking bludy good to.

[Dr_Who]

dear Dr....not only in Auckland does this exist....here in godzone (ChCH) the same exists....those who fluant it...I actually feel sorry for...myself and my wife (now seperated) have assests of around $2m...however i also have a mate who says $50m is required to be rich.
I have biked through Bolivia,Vietnam,Chile,Argentina,Nepal,Tibet.Croati a,Italy,China and a few others (and soon Tanzania).....i seriously think we have all got it wrong...man to those people smile and just live...it aint rocket science...how many personality disordered/anxiety stricken,eating disorded,attention deficit dosorderd.suicidal, antisocial folk live in these countries....is well worth considering...but me thinks not many... and finally to complete my rant....how many of those with "seemingly heaps" live in polycladded mansions (temporay)....need I say more....

Too right. I ve spoken to a number of people who are well off but come from humble beginnings. The majority of them would acknowledge that they were more happy when they had less money, but they do live a easier life now, but are not as happy. I think the art is to find that balance in not wanting so much, but yet have enough for a happy and comfortable life. Unfortunately, many who have worked hard to go to the top do not know how to or know when to stop until there is a train wreck in their lives.

And when we do have the wealth behind us, we shouldnt treat those less fortunate than us with disrespect. I cant stand people who are up themselves just cos they have abit more than others.

[Sideshow Bob]

36.

Mortgage free

Portfolio $65,000 + $30,000 Bonds.

Unlike some of my friends, it hasn't been through ny parents.

[Corporate]

25...nearly 26 :-)

[fungus pudding]

we should do a poll I'm 32

61. Retired a hell of a long time ago. Was never good at working anyway.

[bermuda]

62,
Retired and glad I no longer work for BP. But that was back in 1992. I drive a badly dented 1989 ferrari red Mazda Astina and have a house that needs 4 or 5 buckets if it rains hard. But it is on a lovely large section with plenty of sun.

I just invest in growth stories and if they don't grow I sell out. This year started off brilliantly, then we got hit by the so called 'gas glut', recovered brilliantly again and now have been decimated by an inept Aussie dipstick and the 'pigs' crisis. As long as I don't wake up to the news of a perpetual motion machine invention then I am happy...particularly with my Blue Energy .....after last weeks report by Kogas on their forthcoming major investment in Aussie CSG/LNG.

[troyvdh]

bermuda...your a bloody beauty......god love yah....

[RRR]

35-Started earning only at age28. I invested well in my education and that is my biggest asset(and it will earn me much much more than property/shares in the years to come). I liked the idea of living off the returns from assets though and hence started investing from 2008 with mixed success. Still learning from you guys..Target-2.5 million by the time i turn 50.

[Kees]

59 retired at 49 tried to get back on the train at 52 lost a **** load $ got off again at 55 regained my funds in property now just playing on the market nothing serious most income derived from commercial property.

[shasta]

59 retired at 49 tried to get back on the train at 52 lost a **** load $ got off again at 55 regained my funds in property now just playing on the market nothing serious most income derived from commercial property.

I'm 33 (34 this year) & started in shares when i was 18.

I'm not in the market at all at the moment, due to personal circumstances

[fihr]

I was introduced to the share market 12 years ago. My spouse and I borrowed money, and invested heavily in both shares and property, aiming to buy a house that way eventually. We bought our house last year in the GFC property dip. Sold all our other investments to do so, over the two years prior. We can thank both the property boom while it lasted and the resources boom for our house. Now I'm starting again from scratch, but not borrowing money. My active trading portfolio is only around $26K, and uses CFDs to increase exposure when its not too risky to do so. This is keeping my hand in, teaching me how to cope with the current markets and a more active trading style. Have other portfolios of larger amounts in super, but less actively traded as well. We have a 20 year outlook (early 40's now), and aren't going to put more money in until we think the GFC carnage has settled. Since we subscribe to newsletters like Harry S Dent's, this might take a while. But if we are wrong, we still have a stake in the market to catch any upward runs.

[skeet]

25 this year, no property, take 4-6 weeks unpaid leave off each year to travel, plan to retire at 45. Probably only spend 10k a year on living costs, drive a $200 car, and save the rest.

[ScrappyO]

34...tried to trade when i was 16 using teletex, use to phone up my broker from craig & co who would give me the odd discount on my trades. Back then had about 5000 dollars. Ended up putting it all in to GPG where i left it until about 3 yrs ago when i thought i would give it another go. Not to successful so far but learning heaps. I think it was my timing of re-entry being the end of 2007. Have about 30k to use.

[troyvdh]

hold on here.....what has Mr Devine unleashed here.....are we divluging our entrials here ...guts and all ...years of betrayel andf sacrifice.,...loss of fortunes....are we happy or indeed comforttable to have our emblishes in our lives to be exposed....what say you all savages...


I wont even try to correct the numerous spelling errous....basically because I cant....cheers

[ENP]

25 this year, no property, take 4-6 weeks unpaid leave off each year to travel, plan to retire at 45. Probably only spend 10k a year on living costs, drive a $200 car, and save the rest.

You own no property, so you must rent. And you live on $200 per week? Do you live out in the wops and pay $50 rent a week or something?

[Skol]

I'm 60.
I'll retire in about 2/3 years, where I work I don't have a boss as such and get left alone, just work with a couple of other guys and generally enjoy myself.
I'm well set up, have superannuation, unit trusts I've been dollar cost averaging for decades, a commercial property and no debt.
For what it's worth the unit trusts apart from the BT Natural Resources Fund have been a waste of time and younger guys would definitely be better off dollar cost averaging into some big aussie companies instead, and doing their own thing.
I'm a contrarian and took some big risks in my 30's on property and ran the revolving mortgage up to the max to buy shares after the 87 crash but reduced the risk in my '40's when I wasn't sleeping too well.
I use $120k for my trading portfolio.

[Serpie]

Just turned 41.

Been in business for 17 years, and still have 4 mortgages!

Trying to feather the nest through a mix of the business, rental properties, forestry investments, Kiwisaver and shares. My back-up plan is to educate the kids (3 & 11) to the highest possible standard so that they can look after me if it all turns to custard.

I've been learning about the share market for about 5 years, and when I get it right I might throw some proper money at it. I like to think I'm getting better, but until then it's the best game in the world.

The best thing about sharetrading is the interesting and intelligent people that you meet, and I've made some great friends through Sharetrader.

[shambles]

I'm 29.
Started trading with 100k about 6 months ago + up about 10k from then - all nzx.
Haven't worked the last 5 years as was trading property through the easy credit and big cap gains of last decade.
Now have a 'long term' residential portfolio in Chch of about 1.5Mill and mortgage of nearly 1mill.
Looking for a suitable business to buy so I have diversification, income + something I can add value to the old fashion way.
Greatly appreciate the advice + opinions shared on this site - hence openly disclosing my position.

[JBmurc]

I'm 29.
Started trading with 100k about 6 months ago + up about 10k from then - all nzx.
Haven't worked the last 5 years as was trading property through the easy credit and big cap gains of last decade.
Now have a 'long term' residential portfolio in Chch of about 1.5Mill and mortgage of nearly 1mill.
Looking for a suitable business to buy so I have diversification, income + something I can add value to the old fashion way.
Greatly appreciate the advice + opinions shared on this site - hence openly disclosing my position.

So you live off the yield from you chch property?
Chch property must have been a site better than the lower south (hard to believe) to be flipping residential or did you make it in the first 5yrs of the decade 00-05 (I also made some good spec money during that time in Qtn Inv property

[steve fleming]

dear Dr....not only in Auckland does this exist....here in godzone (ChCH) the same exists....those who fluant it...I actually feel sorry for....

Growing up, I went to school with some boys from 2 of NZ's most successful and wealthy families ( a brewing family, and a construction/industrialist family). Also i knew/had neighbours who were members of some of Auckland's most successful retailing and merchant families. You are talking genuine old money, money that had been passed down 2, 3 even 4 generations.

To a person, these people were some of the most understated, freindly genuine people you would meet, and they would never ever talk about or flaunt their wealth.

These flash harrys that have emerged over the last decade or so, with their debt funded extravagent lifestyles, are just plain embarrassing. I feel sorry for them as well. Their so called wealth will be lucky to survive 1 generation, and their legacy (both for their family and for the country ) will be very limited.

[wbosher]

39 - looking at some of the money you guys have (allegedly;)) got really depresses me. I wish I'd started saving earlier in life instead of pissing up against a wall. Oh well, I had fun. :t_up:

Started trading at the end of 2008 with about $1000, did pretty well until a few weeks ago then got hammered. Have saved some more money to play with but with child number two due in July, will probably need that for nappies etc....:rolleyes:

Really enjoy reading the posts on this site and there are a lot of very helpful people out there. Cheers.

[gazprom1]

These flash harrys that have emerged over the last decade or so, with their debt funded extravagent lifestyles, are just plain embarrassing. I feel sorry for them as well. Their so called wealth will be lucky to survive 1 generation, and their legacy (both for their family and for the country ) will be very limited.[/QUOTE]

SF,

Understated wealth is the only way to go, totally agree. As stated previously, enjoy your money as it can be a tool to improve your life. It can also do the opposite. Set up your structures to protect your wealth for you and future generations. If you are not married and have money, ensure it is protected BEFORE you get into a de facto relationship or married. Be smart!!!

In my past life, I was a fund manager (equity and debt) investing and living in Russia/ Cayman Islands. Retired at 33 (didn't need to be the wealthiest person in the cemetery) and now 40. If you are disciplined and focussed, leverage (debt) gives you a higher probability of becoming "wealthy" in the long run. If you are "young" then the more leveraged you could or should be. Time to recover if you run into unexpected problems.

Interesting thread. I enjoy investing and sharing views can only benefit us all. On that note, provided there is no nasty news out over the rest of the weekend, there could be reasonable buying opportunities on Monday. I am thinking that it may be a wise to add to my CFE holding on Monday - IMHO I think JBMc has it right on this one. I don't mind if any ST investors buy before me=)=)

Gazprom

[foodee]

Noit so. To get an income of 50,000 you don't need 69,000. The tax is low on the first bit. 38% only kicks in after 70,000.


FP
You are absolutely correct.
The gist hasn't change though.

For those who haven't started; it is later than you think.

cheers

[fungus pudding]

FP
You are absolutely correct.
The gist hasn't change though.

For those who haven't started; it is later than you think.

cheers

Just looked at the new tax rates. In round figures, 64,000 should do it, which is that much easier to obtain than 69k.
Once you are earning a reasonable chunk more than your living expenses, it becomes plain sailing. Compound interest/returns kick in and voila- income soars. Within no time you can be investing more than you are spending, and hey-presto - you're high flying.The trick is that in the early years follow Fungus Pudding's infallible rule for wealth; live beneath your means.

[Skol]

This is an interesting thread and maybe views can be shared on not only making money but not losing it.
My father was a car dealer and it always amazed me how much dosh people would lose on their vehicles. They'd buy a good car, use the dealers finance company at exorbitant rates and fees, let their dog run around in it and kids abuse it and wonder why they got nothing for it when they brought it back.
Pay cash for your car and drive a hard bargain. I use to buy old heaps that my father repossessed and fix them up under the house.
I lost quite a bit of money on a Jeep I bought a few years back. It was undoubtedly the worst, most unreliable vehicle I've owned, worse than my MK4 Zephyr. It was my fault, when I did the homework later I found out what a dog this model was.
The lesson is don't borrow money for cars and if you can get an investment property (preferably commercial or industrial) and have your mortgage deductible you'll save heaps.
Unless some spectacularly good deal comes along my days as a residential landlord are over.

[skeet]

You own no property, so you must rent. And you live on $200 per week? Do you live out in the wops and pay $50 rent a week or something?

Live in a Christchurch, maybe not the best house in the street but its cheap.

Rent: $5720 a year includes internet, power, phone. Live with 2 others, 3 bedroom place.
Food: $3120 a year, also got parents and gf parents who like to feed me fore free
Leaves surplus of $1140, btw that figure was only living costs.

Interesting about cars, my first car cost me 4k, ticked up as soon as I could get a personal loan. I then spent another thousand on it, crashed it and in the process the other car was written off to. Insurance didn't pay out as i had passengers on a restricted license. A valuable lesson was learnt for life, since then every car has been cheaper than the last, currently for $200 I bought a 1991 Mazda Familiar Interplay, its passed 3 warrants with no problems and does everything a 10k car does. So why spend more if you don't need to.

[fihr]

Yes, 'live beneath your means' is good advice. We made a lot of lifestyle sacrifices to get to our goal, including renting instead of owning a mortgage, and spending all of every weekend working on renovating our properties for some time. We also only bought non-investment items like cars out of realised capital gains, rather than borrowings. So we drove our cars until they wouldn't work any more and ignored the occasional criticisms from people who did not understand.

It worked out for us. However, we know others who have also made sacrifices, who have ended up with more debt rather than capital gain, after the GFC destroyed their investments. Its tragic. Even living below your means or making all kinds of sacrifice, is no guarantee. Risk has to be managed. We ignored this advice and did well out of it pre-GFC. However, our timing was inadvertent. Had things been different, we could have been no better off after all the hard work.

[troyvdh]

Skol..you make an interesting point..about not loosing "it"....when folk ask me about money and stuff..I usuall y reply ..along the lines of...if your keeping the stuff your doing very welll !!!!!

I suspect that most people do not realise that the discipline involved in making the stuff his way way different from keeping the stuff....how many people (elderly...farmers...self employed) know very well how to graft for endless hours/years yet be totally smitten by someone (who on the face fit...well dressed,shiny pamphlets et al) and lost the lot....in the period of 1 or 2 interviews...honestly it makes me weep....cheers

[Skol]

I can't read a balance sheet but study the financial markets endlessly. There are lots of scamsters out there and there are more financial advisers and lawyers in jail than car dealers.
I've had a few unit trusts going over the years but they've been a waste of time and the fees take the cream off the top anyway.
If I had my time over again I'd dollar cost average into the big Aussie companies and reinvest the dividends.
I tend to do my own thing, then I've only got myself to blame if it all goes wrong. I'd sooner lose it myself than have someone do it for me.

[denpal]

I'm 51 and have been doing this for around 4 years as a sideline (my profession is in property), so not very long compared to some of the people on here! Got <$100k in the market in total, largely in cash right now (apart from a couple of plays awaiting big anns.) after a brilliant few months in various mining specs like ROL,TRF,IFE,NSE,GOT,STB etc. As soon as the worm turned a couple of weeks back I liquidated. I may buy some ZAUWBA gold warrants next week, and take a good look over the next couple of weeks at the best sectors and stocks to short after the next bounce. Looks like there is plenty of downside ahead over the next few months!

[remy]

I got a question for some of the veterans on here..

For those of you that invest for a living, how old where you started living of your investments??
Once i finish up with my masters, im planning on getting into the industry, learning as much as i can and build up some capital to day trade / live of investments comfortably enough..
Would love to do this while living somewhere like queenstown/wanaka instead of being a slave to corporates in a big city..

[Year of the Tiger]

I got a question for some of the veterans on here..

For those of you that invest for a living, how old where you started living of your investments??
Once i finish up with my masters, im planning on getting into the industry, learning as much as i can and build up some capital to day trade / live of investments comfortably enough..
Would love to do this while living somewhere like queenstown/wanaka instead of being a slave to corporates in a big city..

Wouldn't we all...

YOTT

[remy]

Well lots of my people i go to uni with aim for all these high paying jobs in london, new york, sydney etc.. id rather have a nice lifestyle and make a reasonable living.. It seems a few people on here share this few and can do it well enough

[fungus pudding]

I got a question for some of the veterans on here..

For those of you that invest for a living, how old where you started living of your investments??


31. Although after a few years I did do some more work for a while - not sure why, looking back. Work definitely detracts from a good lifestyle; although you have to 'learn' how to not have a job. A friend of mine in a similar position once read a book called 'How to do nothing all the time by yourself' or something like that.

[RRR]

Remy

There is no free lunch in this world and one has to work one way or the other..How you choose to do it(and how smartly and efficiently you do it) is a different topic. They call it a rat race and you choose whether to go slow or fast-but you have to do it anyway!!

[JBmurc]

Wouldn't we all...

YOTT

well I'm half way there

[bermuda]

My aim is to have a billion by the time I am 82. And all of it goes to my 2 charitable girls. And at the moment it is going down fast.
In the meantime I will give 10% of my wealth each year to charity.
We are all so fortunate to even be on this site. Some people don't get a chance.

[shasta]

I got a question for some of the veterans on here..

For those of you that invest for a living, how old where you started living of your investments??
Once i finish up with my masters, im planning on getting into the industry, learning as much as i can and build up some capital to day trade / live of investments comfortably enough..
Would love to do this while living somewhere like queenstown/wanaka instead of being a slave to corporates in a big city..

Remy

The earlier you start the more you can benefit from the power of compounding, especially if u have a longer term focus.

The trick is to build up capital when younger (perhaps taking a few more risks) & when you are "financially free" you can trade, by financially free i mean when you have sufficient income to live off (without you having to work for it) & having a capital base large enough to play with, that isn't required elsewhere.

[bermuda]

I got a question for some of the veterans on here..

For those of you that invest for a living, how old where you started living of your investments??
Once i finish up with my masters, im planning on getting into the industry, learning as much as i can and build up some capital to day trade / live of investments comfortably enough..
Would love to do this while living somewhere like queenstown/wanaka instead of being a slave to corporates in a big city..

Remy,
I read the Zurich Axioms back in about 1995. Pick one stock. But do your research thoroughly. I chose NZO. It changed my life. Started living off my investments about 2005 and they way they are going I will be back in work very shortly. Just joking. This CSG is bigger than Texas. Even if this dipstick Rudd gets in the way.

The world's oil production is falling off a cliff and gas has to become the transitional fuel.

[Corporate]

My aim is to have a billion by the time I am 82. And all of it goes to my 2 charitable girls. And at the moment it is going down fast.
In the meantime I will give 10% of my wealth each year to charity.
We are all so fortunate to even be on this site. Some people don't get a chance.

1 billion...bermuda I love you goals!

[Dr_Who]

1 billion...bermuda I love you goals!

Do you love him or do you love his billions? :p

[trackers]

Well, since everyone is sharing the love...

I'm 28, been trading with minimal funds for about 6 years. I doubled up about 4 years ago and that paid for our house deposit, but it also had the net affect of reducing my investment money down to zip, and making me poor through mortgage payments! But back into it over the last 2 years, made 30% in 2008 and doubled up last year and now have a modest figure to invest (about 40k).

My wife of just over a year and I just had our first wee bubs (8 weeks now :) ), so we're currently a single income family in our late 20's with a mortgage.. Its tough going, and even more motivation to turn this modest sum into something decent.. I don't want to be rich and famous, just want to have enough to get by comfortably on investments and work because I want to, not because the repo men will show up in a couple of weeks if I dont :)

I invest aggressively, and my goals are returns in excess of 100% p.a

[Serpie]

My wife of just over a year and I just had our first wee bubs (8 weeks now :) ),

Congratulations Trackers!
It's a beautiful thing, and puts everything into perspective.

[wbosher]

Congratulations Trackers!
It's a beautiful thing, and puts everything into perspective.

Sure does. My wife and I have been slowly filling up the spare room wardrobe with nappies for about 6 months now. Hope you've been stocking up too Trackers. ;)

[gazprom1]

Well, since everyone is sharing the love...

I'm 28, been trading with minimal funds for about 6 years. I doubled up about 4 years ago and that paid for our house deposit, but it also had the net affect of reducing my investment money down to zip, and making me poor through mortgage payments! But back into it over the last 2 years, made 30% in 2008 and doubled up last year and now have a modest figure to invest (about 40k).

My wife of just over a year and I just had our first wee bubs (8 weeks now :) ), so we're currently a single income family in our late 20's with a mortgage.. Its tough going, and even more motivation to turn this modest sum into something decent.. I don't want to be rich and famous, just want to have enough to get by comfortably on investments and work because I want to, not because the repo men will show up in a couple of weeks if I dont :)

I invest aggressively, and my goals are returns in excess of 100% p.a

Hi trackers,

Good post and good objectives. As mentioned before, I am now 40 and ex fund manager. When I was 27 Russia devalued its currency and defaulted on its debt. Oil was cheap as chips and gas even cheaper. I started buying Gazprom shares at 40 cents and invested right down until 12 cents (from memory it went to 7 or 8 cents - my average was 27 cents!!!). I started selling at $1.75 right through until $14. It changed my life in a period of 3-4 years - bought land, investment properties,etc. Retired from fund managing at 33. Provided you are able to meet your outgoings comfortably, you should invest aggressively while you are young. Any losses can be made back even if it takes time. I invest aggressively still with a small proportion of my overall wealth...no need to be a billionaire just being able to do what you want to do everyday is fantastic.

Going to be another interesting day in the markets...

Gazprom

[trackers]

Congratulations Trackers!
It's a beautiful thing, and puts everything into perspective.

Thanks! Yeah it certainly does put things into perspective, my favorite part of the day is seeing her cute wee smile


Sure does. My wife and I have been slowly filling up the spare room wardrobe with nappies for about 6 months now. Hope you've been stocking up too Trackers. ;)

Hey wbosher,

Yeah we bought a few but were scared our wee fella would grow out of the size we picked (definitely not the case, shes tiny!), plus we didn't know the sex until birth... But we've done a made rush for supplies since :) I brought a box of nappies the other day and they were boys, oops (had no idea there was a difference :) )


Hi trackers,

Good post and good objectives. As mentioned before, I am now 40 and ex fund manager. When I was 27 Russia devalued its currency and defaulted on its debt. Oil was cheap as chips and gas even cheaper. I started buying Gazprom shares at 40 cents and invested right down until 12 cents (from memory it went to 7 or 8 cents - my average was 27 cents!!!). I started selling at $1.75 right through until $14. It changed my life in a period of 3-4 years - bought land, investment properties,etc. Retired from fund managing at 33. Provided you are able to meet your outgoings comfortably, you should invest aggressively while you are young. Any losses can be made back even if it takes time. I invest aggressively still with a small proportion of my overall wealth...no need to be a billionaire just being able to do what you want to do everyday is fantastic.

Going to be another interesting day in the markets...

Gazprom

Hey Gazprom, thats really inspirational, thanks. If I could do the same sort of thing that would be excellent! Guess its also a reminder to follow your gut...To be honest, all the guys on here teach me so much, and every day I feel like a know a little bit more about the markets... So hopefully its the timescale that will vary and not the outcome itself :)

[remy]

nice story KW, what are you degrees in? where do you invest, all equitys or fx, debt, derivatives etc

[airedale]

My aim is to have a billion by the time I am 82. And all of it goes to my 2 charitable girls. And at the moment it is going down fast.
In the meantime I will give 10% of my wealth each year to charity.
We are all so fortunate to even be on this site. Some people don't get a chance.

Bermuda, I like your style. Some day I will tell my grandsons " I never met Warren Buffet, but I knew Bermuda before he became a billionaire".:)
My stake in the market is a couple of hundred grand, and I aim to make it to 1 million......at which point some of our readers will be able to say" I knew Airedale before he became etc..etc..
Age 69.

[lissica]

How old are most of you guys?

30?

60?

31. Went straight to Uni at 17, did a BMedSci and MBChB- took 7yrs. Working since end of 2002.

Started off with about 40k Student loan, paid it off and then built about 400-500k net in property/investments in the NZX and ASX. Have a reasonably large share portfolio, but it's only because I tend to spend a lot less than what I'm earning rather than any sort of savvy investing. I think I'm still under from when I first started in 2005.

[wbosher]

I tend to spend a lot less than what I'm earning

Not married then eh? :)

[NoVice]

, worse than my MK4 Zephyr. .

Not Possible

[fungus pudding]

Not Possible

:D Never heard of a Leyland P76 ?

[Skol]

Not Possible
It is possible. The worst thing the Mk4 did was lose oil pressure. (Stopped the engine before it seized).
The Jeep I owned had the rear crown wheel & pinion removed 3 times, multiple electrical faults (including one that shorted out the ignition switch), blocked fuel filter (inside petrol tank), lousy air conditioning and gas mileage that would drain the Middle East.
Didn't do my homework. The Dog & Lemon Guide says "avoid like the plague".

[percy]

used to beFord carsalesman saying.What is the difference between V6 and VD?.At least you can get ride of VD!!!!!
The 3litre v6 Zodiac was a very nice car.The Leyland p76 was an excellent car built at the wrong time.

[fungus pudding]

It is possible. The worst thing the Mk4 did was lose oil pressure.


Oh no it wasn't. Every single mechanical part of the Mk 4 was useless. Suspension, steering, everything about the motor, the gearbox, clutch, diff and heaps more. Other than that they were fine apart from the body and electrical work, which sort of only leaves the tyres really. Nothing wrong with the tyres, except they wore out in no time because of the useless suspension system. But in Ford's defence - the handbook was quite good.

[JBmurc]

Wow if the portfolio carries on the rest of the week like it did today I'll be up on the last couple weeks negative paper losses in no time a very good day up $17,500

[Dr_Who]

Wow if the portfolio carries on the rest of the week like it did today I'll be up on the last couple weeks negative paper losses in no time a very good day up $17,500

Yep, looks like good buying last friday. :)

[Skol]

Hopefully my portfolio will be worth more in the next few days. I did a bit of buying today and Asian markets are up.
The EU and ECB are going to defend the Euro so DJIA might be up tonite.
DJIA will do OK anyway because even if it all goes bad punters will buy US assets.

[percy]

22up,8 down,4 no change,8 not traded,1 profit up grade.EBO,MLN,PGC down.We certainly live in interesting times!!!Wish I could understand it!!!

[gazprom1]

Sounds to me that "averaging down" isn't always a bad thing! :)

Yankiwi,

It is a topic that I have posted on before (averaging down). In short, if you have invested in a fundamentally sound stock on a set of parameters and the stock goes down but those parameters are still vaild, buy more.

I know that a lot of investors cut and run on a downtrending stock on a TA basis and would say you can buy back when the signals change. However, I just average down. Good example last year - HZN. Was buying at 28 and right down to 10 cents. Average was 15.1. Started selling at 30 through 39. One could say that I could have sold at 25 and bought back at 13.

I also believe in averaging up...NGE being an example.

Gazprom

[gazprom1]

Only one trade yesterday, bought 125,000 BUR at 8.6. Just put them on th block at 11. Who knows. Also selling a few TAP at 107.5....bought at 101 on friday.

Crystal ball gazing I am thinking that the ASX will not be as strong as the European/ US markets...maybe very strong at open and then trail off during the day.....??? Will probably do the opposite!!!=)

Gazprom

[STRAT]

Wow you fellas and felletts are really putting it out there.
Late forties. Thats all I will say. Aint havin that 50 which is looming, closer than 40 anyways, made public.
Someone who knew someone helped me loose some money on a ponzy stock in 05. Thought I could probably loose money with out someone elses help. Put 15k into the hobby in 06 and another 5 in 07. Have pulled out 10 and am around 50k play money now. Decided at the start if I couldnt make the 15k grow without help or top ups then Id be better off with a new hobby. Aim to grow the 20k invested into something that will allow me to sell my business and make my hobby my day job.

Like a good Scotch or Cheese though I reckon. Could take a while :p

[Snow Leopard]

.... a ponzy stock in 05. ....
A ponzy stock or THE ponzy stock (whose name must not be mentioned) ?

:D

regards
Paper Tiger

[STRAT]

A ponzy stock or THE ponzy stock (whose name must not be mentioned) ?

:D

regards
Paper Tiger:lol: . PT you lurker. I had my money on Trackers beating you to that :p

[Skol]

I bought some TOL & MGR yesterday.
MGR was cheaper than the SPP which was quite pleasing.

[trackers]

:lol: . PT you lurker. I had my money on Trackers beating you to that :p

Ahaha Strat and PT!

*No comment* - I've had some fairly average picks over the years (TSV would be the highlight). Though I will say that I wish I had the ability to short stocks back then, I wanted to quite badly (and would have made an absolute killing)

[gazprom1]

Only 8 trades this week, 7 good and one bad at this stage. Total value $88,000.

Gazprom

[remy]

^nice, whats that roughly in percentage terms?

[gazprom1]

^nice, whats that roughly in percentage terms?

Just under 8%. Had 3 NGE trades which are sitting nice....I have sold myself on NGE so hope it comes through. Mak is not great.

gazprom

[soulman]

Just under 8%. Had 3 NGE trades which are sitting nice....I have sold myself on NGE so hope it comes through. Mak is not great.

gazprom

Mixed emotion for mine but all in all 19 trades. Timing is off completely on some of them. Sold PIR yesterday for B/E (loss on brokerage) for 14.5 but today, it got to 16. The same with NAV when I sold on Tues for 16.5. Sold CAZ on Mon for 52.5. Not a bad week overall.

Also, took a huge loss on SIP on 2 accounts selling one for 41 and the other for 40. I supposed both are good sell.

[shambles]

So you live off the yield from you chch property?
Chch property must have been a site better than the lower south (hard to believe) to be flipping residential or did you make it in the first 5yrs of the decade 00-05 (I also made some good spec money during that time in Qtn Inv property
Hi JB
I've been living off equity from cap gains mainly - some yield based dividends but not enough to sustain the lifestyle I like to lead.
Hence looking for a business opportunity. Cyclically it seems a good time to be buying some distressed assets.

[JBmurc]

Hi JB
I've been living off equity from cap gains mainly - some yield based dividends but not enough to sustain the lifestyle I like to lead.
Hence looking for a business opportunity. Cyclically it seems a good time to be buying some distressed assets.

yeah fair enough good luck with the business opportunity personal I'd love to own my own small central otago gold mining operation one day LOL

[percy]

yeah fair enough good luck with the business opportunity personal I'd love to own my own small central otago gold mining operation one day LOL
JB
I see owning a huge silver mine would be more you!!!

[JBmurc]

JB
I see owning a huge silver mine would be more you!!!

Na silver prices far to low your be better of just buying the silver bullion an waiting for the price to increase to some kind of fair value 50oz+
wouldn't need many oz of gold per day to make a nice living--- even if it costs you $1000 per oz mined NZD you should be able to clear $500oz-600oz EBIT per oz

[shambles]

yeah fair enough good luck with the business opportunity personal I'd love to own my own small central otago gold mining operation one day LOL

I have enjoyed owning a small slice of OGC the last two weeks, does that count ;)

[fungus pudding]

This is an interesting thread and maybe views can be shared on not only making money but not losing it.
My father was a car dealer and it always amazed me how much dosh people would lose on their vehicles. They'd buy a good car, use the dealers finance company at exorbitant rates and fees, let their dog run around in it and kids abuse it and wonder why they got nothing for it when they brought it back.
Pay cash for your car and drive a hard bargain. I use to buy old heaps that my father repossessed and fix them up under the house.
I lost quite a bit of money on a Jeep I bought a few years back. It was undoubtedly the worst, most unreliable vehicle I've owned, worse than my MK4 Zephyr. It was my fault, when I did the homework later I found out what a dog this model was.
The lesson is don't borrow money for cars and if you can get an investment property (preferably commercial or industrial) and have your mortgage deductible you'll save heaps.
Unless some spectacularly good deal comes along my days as a residential landlord are over.



As has been said by many a wise man-'You should drive the cheapest car your ego can live with'. :D

[Aotea]

Gidday JB,
I would be happy to sell you my claim, at least $4-5M in gold (could be twice that),...easy dredging, 50-80cm of auriferous gravels over bedrock..any reasonable offer over 80k would be considered by me and my mining partner. the rich area is almost entirly virgin. I know of people hitting 40oz in a week, a mate got 13oz in a day.


yeah fair enough good luck with the business opportunity personal I'd love to own my own small central otago gold mining operation one day LOL

[bermuda]

As has been said by many a wise man-'You should drive the cheapest car your ego can live with'. :D

I am very happy with my dented Ferrari Red Mazda Astina. Worth about $1000 but it runs well and gets me to golf. I dont have to worry about someone scratching it or depreciation. Perhaps I should get one with airbags and ABS brakes.

[ENP]

I am very happy with my dented Ferrari Red Mazda Astina. Worth about $1000 but it runs well and gets me to golf. I dont have to worry about someone scratching it or depreciation. Perhaps I should get one with airbags and ABS brakes.

I have a 1992 Nissan Bluebird. It's still going strong!

I'm 21 years old, been working 9-10 months since graduating. Have about $17k in cash/bank deposits. I'm keen to get into higher growth assets (property I'm particularly keen on) once I get to $25k in cash assets.

I used to hold Ryman Health about 5-6 months ago but sold out as I realised I bought at the wrong end of the market. I'm keen on buy and hold and am not interested in short term trading particularly.

I have a goal of $60k before tax income in todays dollars when I'm 35 (in 13-14 years time).

[shasta]

I have a 1992 Nissan Bluebird. It's still going strong!

I'm 21 years old, been working 9-10 months since graduating. Have about $17k in cash/bank deposits. I'm keen to get into higher growth assets (property I'm particularly keen on) once I get to $25k in cash assets.

I used to hold Ryman Health about 5-6 months ago but sold out as I realised I bought at the wrong end of the market. I'm keen on buy and hold and am not interested in short term trading particularly.

I have a goal of $60k before tax income in todays dollars when I'm 35 (in 13-14 years time).

Ryman Health would be an ideal "buy & hold" stock fundamentally for those with a longer term view, we have an ageing population & they will keep expanding due to demand, as NZ's population grows older & bigger.

If you want higher growth assets then stick to shares, not property. Having only $25k equity would mean you are borrowing/leverging your position, you dont want to use debt, thats how people got burnt in the property bubble, those highly/negatively leveraged will be facing higher interest rates down the line.

You would be much better off investing in the likes of Ryman & reinvesting the dividends into the DRP.

Let the effect of compounding build up your nest egg!

Not sure i read your post right, do you want income of $60k before tax? A 3rd year in CA firm would be getting close to that!

[bung5]

But who wants to work for their money?

[shasta]

But who wants to work for their money?

We all do until our asset capital base is sufficient to generate enough income to live on, without physical effort.

I'm re-reading the book, "Get Rich, Stay Rich" by Martin Hawkes at the moment which is to do with being "financially free"

[buns]

Not sure i read your post right, do you want income of $60k before tax? A 3rd year in CA firm would be getting close to that!

Yeah I'm assuming he means $60k PA from his stocks/Divy's... Or rental income is he thinks property is the way

Not sure how you come up with a number like that, 13 years away...

[shasta]

Yeah I'm assuming he means $60k PA from his stocks/Divy's... Or rental income is he thinks property is the way

Not sure how you come up with a number like that, 13 years away...

At todays interest rates around 5%, he'll need to turn thay $17k into $1.2m!

[shasta]

You lost me there shasta.:)

Sorry if ENP wants income of $60k before tax then he will need $1.2m @ 5% to achieve that.

His current available cash is $17k going off his post

[h2so4]

What about allowing for inflation? How much will he need?

[shasta]

What about allowing for inflation? How much will he need?

Im not sure anyone will be about to tell him what inflation will be for the next 14 years, the amounts were general in nature!

[fungus pudding]

What about allowing for inflation? How much will he need?

More. :D

[h2so4]

Hope he doesn't give up his job.

[peat]

fwiw i did this calculation on my TXI

Wth $5000 p.a savings, and a compounded return of 25% p.a. you can be a billionaire in only 48 years!!
hows that for setting a challenge to the young 'uns
$100 a week invested well is all you need.

[buns]

fwiw i did this calculation on my TXI

Wth $5000 p.a savings, and a compounded return of 25% p.a. you can be a billionaire in only 48 years!!
hows that for setting a challenge to the young 'uns
$100 a week invested well is all you need.

Bud - if you figured out a way to return 25% for even 6/7 years straight you should be a pretty smart chap and should be on the way to some decent earning power, hence be saving well in excess of $100, so be able to return something like 20% (possibly lower? just an estimate) over that time if your underlying deposit rises with time/earnings.

Mentioned in here a bit. RYM have proven this return for some time..

All sounds so easy dosent it.

[peat]

All sounds so easy dosent it.

yeh!

the problem is if you only get 5% it will take you 186 years.:p

[STRAT]

What about allowing for inflation? How much will he need?Yeah I was thinkin 60k might be a job at MacDonalds flippin burgers in 14 years too or less but I think ENP was accounting for inflation by saying "todays money"

In any case at 21years young hes on the right track and I suspect his aspirations will expand.

Good on ya ENP. Wish Id been thinkin about such things at 21

[Lizard]

fwiw i did this calculation on my TXI

Wth $5000 p.a savings, and a compounded return of 25% p.a. you can be a billionaire in only 48 years!!
hows that for setting a challenge to the young 'uns
$100 a week invested well is all you need.

Though of course the hardest part of that would not be to start spending chunks of it once you'd worked up to $100k... since that would have taken you 13.5 years and probably be wanting a house by then.

Houses, family members, IRD or just having a life/holiday... once the money is there, the places for it to leak away to seem to compound even faster than the returns do. And perhaps most of us would say there is nothing wrong with that compared to the Scrooge-like alternatives.

[STRAT]

. And perhaps most of us would say there is nothing wrong with that compared to the Scrooge-like alternatives.Yeah Liz, we are a long time dead and none of us know how long we have left.

[h2so4]

Yeah Liz, we are a long time dead and none of us know how long we have left.

We all have that one down pat. I think you have to find a balance and spend intelligently.

[ENP]

Ryman Health would be an ideal "buy & hold" stock fundamentally for those with a longer term view, we have an ageing population & they will keep expanding due to demand, as NZ's population grows older & bigger.

If you want higher growth assets then stick to shares, not property. Having only $25k equity would mean you are borrowing/leverging your position, you dont want to use debt, thats how people got burnt in the property bubble, those highly/negatively leveraged will be facing higher interest rates down the line.

You would be much better off investing in the likes of Ryman & reinvesting the dividends into the DRP.

Let the effect of compounding build up your nest egg!

Not sure i read your post right, do you want income of $60k before tax? A 3rd year in CA firm would be getting close to that!

$60k passive income, not from a day job I mean.

Yes Ryman is a good long term buy and hold but I'm going to wait until it becomes cheaper or the economy looks like it's not going to crap itself before I buy again.

[ENP]

Yeah I'm assuming he means $60k PA from his stocks/Divy's... Or rental income is he thinks property is the way

Not sure how you come up with a number like that, 13 years away...

In todays dollars. So what ever 60k can buy today. In 13 years time it may be 100+

[ENP]

I have 13 years to get a before tax income of $60k in todays dollars.

If the 5% interest is earned to make me 60k then I need 1.2 million of net worth by the time I'm 35.

I think that is highly do-able. However, I'd expect to be earning a bit more than 5% interest, because I'll need to be earning 20+ percent p/a to reach my goal at age 35. Buying and holding shares for 13 years isn't going to get me there I wouldn't have thought, hence why the leaverage of property and business is appealing.

[buns]

I have 13 years to get a before tax income of $60k in todays dollars.

If the 5% interest is earned to make me 60k then I need 1.2 million of net worth by the time I'm 35.

I'm not sure what kind person you are, what you are into. But thinking seriously where you want to be at 35, when only 21 is quite an early start.. Keep in mind, how much enjoyment you will get with $60k at 35, compared to the kind of things you can do with extra money from age 21 - 26 kind of thing. Good money will come if you are smart, and that should just about be enough to live the life you want (with some kind of investments behind you). Be careful, that you don't blow these years worrying to much, then look back at 35 sitting on your oversized porch, huge lawn, ocean view - thinking what could have been..

[gazprom1]

Great advice buns. Get your qualifications sorted out and have a great time and spend every cent and then do some work. You might be earning $250,000/$500,000/ $1 million plus per year when you are 30 and then no need to worry. Retire at 35 and trade a few shares and have a great time again!!!!

[h2so4]

Retire at 35 and trade a few shares and have a great time again!!!!

This thought feels better to me than any goal fixation.:)

[Stranger_Danger]

ENP - I disagree with the others and the talk of balance, enjoying spending money etc etc.

The reality is, most people are pretty clueless from 20-30, but, have energy and hopefully enthusiasm.

Money provides choices, but that can be a mixed blessing in an age range that is good at making bad choices.

My advice would be work like a dog, half kill yourself, get rich by 35 then worry about the other stuff. Do the hard work while you are young and can take knocks, physical, mental and financial.

If your worst case is you are sitting alone in your mansion at 35 with no life, you can always go from there. Besides, chicks dig rich dudes and if you're not tied down, you won't need to give up half your dough to the wife when you go chasing young hotties.

There is nothing worse than seeing some poor, tired guy at 50 "waking up" and deciding to get serious about wealth creation. There is a reason so many frauds are committed by people in this group - too little, too late.

Get rich first, realising that money won't make you happy. Wake up at 35 not happy, rich and tired. Then try to stay rich whilst getting more happy and less tired.

[CJ]

I disagree StrangerD, there needs to be some balance. There are some things that you can do when your young that you just won't do when your older.

I prefer the 'work hard, play hard' slogan that 'work hard, play later', though I definately agree that 'play hard, work later' is the wrong way around unless you are a trust fund baby.

[buns]

I think Stranger Danger has taken this idea to an extreme.

But there is no right answer this. And I don’t know about talking about it on a forum like this, as I’m sure many have taken different routes, which some regret. And then come here and read the apparent ‘right way’ to live your life… It’s your own choice, and very un predictable.. ENP what would you think of a company who gave a 15 year projection?? I hope you wouldn’t read much into it..

Everyone’s view on wealth is different. A 35 year old Stranger may require $x at anytime to fulfil his wants, whilst someone else with a much smaller amount could be just as happy. But again, how do you know what this amount is, in your early 20’s? You have no idea.

Everyone’s view or feeling on there ability to accumulate wealth is also different. Let’s assume you are a relatively smart chap and have proven this in a workplace for 10 years, now at the age of around 30 with little to no savings/investments, earning 100k (less than ¾ of the average CA), you could still start investing 20% of that income for 5 years, and returning say 20% average you will have well north of $150k to play with (wages offsetting inflation).

Sure this isn’t a retirement material, but it’s enough to put in a safe dividend stock to give yourself $15k worth of holidays a year.

Oh the scenarios are endless. Save more than 20k a year and return 15%? Save less and return more? Start earlier?

But I think, in your early days, get wise/qualified, surround yourself with good people and build networks. Get grounding in investments, start slow, and learn. In between times, experience all the things you can’t when you strong have commitments, travel, have health, get active, don’t lose your uni mates, don’t think leaving uni is the end of it, Waste some money – Learn from it.. In your late 20’s you should now have actual experience in different markets, good networks and have some handy capital built up already, now with more free time and a more settled down life, aim to take this capital and increased free cash flow to the next level. If you find you don't need extra cash to be happier, stuff investing! Just carry on as you are! Investing/more money probably will probably only lower your happiness.

[peat]

but one thing you should supposedly do without much cost is to ensure beyond all doubt that you will be comfortable in your old age by starting to save a little right from the earliest of ages - just in case the grandiose dreams dont quite work out or there is some setback along the way
sure aim to get rich quick at some stage in your life
but also get rich slowly at the same time.

[Lego_Man]

or there is some setback along the way


There will be.

[h2so4]

I agree with Buns, it's a personal decision. And because you make the decision for you, you can't be wrong. Sure you can learn from other people but don't let any body tell you, you should have done this or you should do that. All I know is that whatever your wants or desires are you sort of get there in the end.

[gazprom1]

Good to see different views being thrown around....that's what makes us interesting. My issue with Stranger Dangers view (which is a valid and well thought out view) is that you wake up at 35 having saved and saved and you might have a million or three put away. You have sacrificed those incredible years between 20-30 saving when, IMHO, you should be out and about in the world working and spending almost everything. Time is not against you when you are young and there is time to do everything - have no fear. Your salary/ wage typically rises over time so I would rather spend that $10/20/30k that I may have been able save in my 1st/ 2nd/3rd year. By the time you are 30 your salary should/could be double/triple/quadruple what you started on and you could be putting $50/100/200k away a year and it would make all that suffering for $10/20/30k pointless and soul destroying as you look back at the dull life you would have lead. Life is short and work is over rated....investing, for me, is mostly enjoyable and rewarding and being master of your own destiny is key!!!

[Stranger_Danger]

I can only speak for myself, but I can't think of anything cooler to do between 20-30 than going nuts on a goal or two, while you have the energy and the freedom. And if you can position yourself into business ownership, you truly get to eat your own cooking.

I think back fondly to being 20 odd and being able to work 30+ plus hours straight. I just can't do that anymore (and I'm only early 30's!).

I would hate to have to "step up" at 30, 40 or 50 competing against a batch of hungry, poor 20 year olds. I'm sure they'd skin me.

If the above sounds like torture, and your idea of fun between 20 - 30 involves travel, spending and fun, then thats cool - you definitely should pursue that. However, you're missing out on a lot of compounding time.

[fungus pudding]

Good to see different views being thrown around....that's what makes us interesting. My issue with Stranger Dangers view (which is a valid and well thought out view) is that you wake up at 35 having saved and saved and you might have a million or three put away. You have sacrificed those incredible years between 20-30 saving when, IMHO, you should be out and about in the world working and spending almost everything. Time is not against you when you are young and there is time to do everything - have no fear. Your salary/ wage typically rises over time so I would rather spend that $10/20/30k that I may have been able save in my 1st/ 2nd/3rd year. By the time you are 30 your salary should/could be double/triple/quadruple what you started on and you could be putting $50/100/200k away a year and it would make all that suffering for $10/20/30k pointless and soul destroying as you look back at the dull life you would have lead. Life is short and work is over rated....investing, for me, is mostly enjoyable and rewarding and being master of your own destiny is key!!!

Oh how I agree with your last line. I'd rather cut my arms off than take orders from an employer. I've studiously avoided that for most of my working life. Anyway - being well aware of my own shortcomings, I think I'm unemployable. Fortunately. :D

[gazprom1]

Oh how I agree with your last line. I'd rather cut my arms off than take orders from an employer. I've studiously avoided that for most of my working life. Anyway - being well aware of my own shortcomings, I think I'm unemployable. Fortunately. :D

I am unemployable as well FP.....but I am very happy with what I am doing.

Stranger Danger - good points....my line of thought is a little different from my own personal experience....I worked during my mid 20's after uni reasonably hard but spent more or less everything and I enjoyed life immensley. I worked harder when I was in my late 20's and was earning great money so saved and spent. By early 30's earning too much and then finished up at 33. Now at 40 I am just investing here and there and back to spending heaps. I think we all have time and do not need to be tied into working into our 40's and 50's provided one takes calculated risks with your human capital as well as financial capital. However, each to their own.

BTW, stellar day in the market and portfolio is looking great. Enjoy the weekend all.

[Aotea]

why dont you become a gold miner!!

[Stranger_Danger]

Aotea - too late. Time to become a gold miner was somewhere between 2001-2005. If a young person wanted to "become a gold miner" the question to ask, what is the equivalent of that in 2015-2019 then begin writing the plan tonight.

[gazprom1]

why dont you become a gold miner!!

What would I do with all the money/ gold Aotea???=)=) I tell you what I did mine a few months ago......silver bars from a mint in Switerland, that is close enough for me to mining apart from investing in mining shares. You wanted $80k for your permit correct??? Why don't you get a few ST's together and do it??

[JBmurc]

Aotea - too late. Time to become a gold miner was somewhere between 2001-2005. If a young person wanted to "become a gold miner" the question to ask, what is the equivalent of that in 2015-2019 then begin writing the plan tonight.

A silver miner

[Aotea]

no...hydro generation and connecting to the grid. the councils plans are incredibly permissive and you have a 50 year passive income. it is dead easy, hence the plan to sell the claim.

[JBmurc]

no...hydro generation and connecting to the grid. the councils plans are incredibly permissive and you have a 50 year passive income. it is dead easy, hence the plan to sell the claim.

where you looking at doing the hydro generatio would be a large cost to setup? if where talking many MegaWatts

[Aotea]

Got a plan going on. Its in Otago, and you will read about it mid next year. Feasibility study is underway, the first analysis gives it producing 2.1 to 2.2Mw..its fair- but not huge.
Will cost $3-5m, and have a backer. Am working on an engineer now to carry the project through. My mining mate and I will obtain all the consents and access agreements, and then hold a 15% share of the coy, or thereabouts and the back holds the rest with a small amount going to the landowner, i.e 2.5%.
Shes a winner by the looks. Got initial stakeholder and landowner approvals...hence me wanting to sell the gold claim.

[JBmurc]

yeah fair enough look forward to reading about it

[Aotea]

What I love about this site is everyone is using thier brains and skills to make a future for themselves and thier families...its to be admired.
And everyone is doing it differently, and all without breaking into a sweat. Imagine what could be created if all our brains where used in one mutual project??

JB, I trust you have bought into ARG since you like the silver. I missed its recent climb and bought into GBE at 0.16 instead- a good HREO play..

[remy]

Some good advice in this thread. I am 21 as well.. I want to work my arse off while i am young and hopefully reap the rewards in my early 30's.. All i keep hearing is the older you are the harder it gets..

[JBmurc]

Some good advice in this thread. I am 21 as well.. I want to work my arse off while i am young and hopefully reap the rewards in my early 30's.. All i keep hearing is the older you are the harder it gets..

well if it's labour intensive for sure am 32 woke up investing wise when I was round 24 after 6yrs of wasting my good income on booze,cars,holidays,gambling an no savings am so glad I did
start to take an interest in making money with money be it the banks or my own....have my goals in place to be debt free an worth a good amount before the big 40 am confident I make it on the back of thousands of hours of study ---listening,reading,planning,posting... there is no fast easy way to wealth creation....

[Corporate]

This is a subject I have thought about a lot, especially recently. And this thread has provoked me to review the financial records I started to keeping when I was 20 (I'm now 26). It has been eye opening to step back and see how influential it was investing early. Not only have I significantly increased my capital, but I have already learnt so much about the financial markets.

I think the next 10 years is going to be the most defining period. Everything is coming together all at once.

[h2so4]

All i keep hearing is the older you are the harder it gets..

That's lovely.........LOL :)

[gazprom1]

This is a subject I have thought about a lot, especially recently. And this thread has provoked me to review the financial records I started to keeping when I was 20 (I'm now 26). It has been eye opening to step back and see how influential it was investing early. Not only have I significantly increased my capital, but I have already learnt so much about the financial markets.

I think the next 10 years is going to be the most defining period. Everything is coming together all at once.

Hi Corporate,

Must be satisfying to look back and see the rewards of your labour. I can't stress enough (being an old bugger at 40!!!=)) that enjoyment and quality of life must be paramount and if you are saving and investing as you are doing that...fantastic and congratulations!!! If you are not then IMHO you should step back and take time to enjoy the fruits of your labour. We are a long time dead. It has been interesting to read posts about the types of cars people drive, houses we live in, etc....what is the point of having $5 million ($100,000/500,000, etc) in the bank/invested and live in a s*** box and drive a crapped out car. Go figure!!!

[STRAT]

being an old bugger at 40!!!!lol

Being a bit older than that I can assure you young fellas that you never feel old ( a bit broken maybe ) but old is always 10 to 20 years older than what ever age you are.

20 to 30 are only the best years of your life if you waste em.

Ive enjoyed my 30s and 40s way more. Mind you some of my mates cant say the same but then they are a tad more broken than me. They really really enjoyed their 20s:lol:..................and teens

[Stranger_Danger]

It has been interesting to read posts about the types of cars people drive, houses we live in, etc....what is the point of having $5 million ($100,000/500,000, etc) in the bank/invested and live in a s*** box and drive a crapped out car. Go figure!!!


But it isn't even that simple.

I have XXXX in the bank/invested, and I live in a rental and take the bus.

I'll reverse the question on you.

What is the point of me having a big house and flash car, even if I can afford it easily, if i don't even want them? Who would I be living for, me, or the people I'm trying to impress?

In my view, it isn't about either money or stuff. It's about happiness. Trying to do the things you like and having the things, and people, around that you want.

*ALL* I know is that if you don't have any real clue about what you may want when you are 20 (and I sure as hell didn't) there are worse things one can do than go like the clappers trying to get rich, then work the rest out later.

If I woke up tomorrow and decided my personality had changed and I wanted a flash house, I'd buy a flash house tomorrow.

I would *hate* to wake up at 35, decide the above, then have to pay back student loans and credit card debt, then maybe, if I'm incredibly lucky, I might get it (with a big fat mortgage) at 40 or so, to be paid off at 65. Stuff that.

[scorp57]

This is a subject I have thought about a lot, especially recently. And this thread has provoked me to review the financial records I started to keeping when I was 20 (I'm now 26). It has been eye opening to step back and see how influential it was investing early. Not only have I significantly increased my capital, but I have already learnt so much about the financial markets.

I think the next 10 years is going to be the most defining period. Everything is coming together all at once.

Corporate I couldnt agree more. I just turned 26 but the knowledge I have gained from the last few years will literally set me up for life at some stage. Being cautious when I am in the markets... Knowing when to sell at a loss. Knowing when to be patient. Phaedrus Chart etc etc... These are all things that If I had have been better equipped before the GFC I would be filthy rich by now.

Some background... Started investing at age 20. Saved my ass off and by the GFC had $100k invested. Unfortunately alot of it was in risky stupid stocks as I was young and stupid. Still havent recovered most of it, but things are looking up. The oppurtunity cost of being tied up in a crap company like URA has taught me to appreciate not only money but also life in general.

The next boom i feel is just about to begin over the next year or so, and I will be in balls and all at the end of the next run. Where it will take me is up to how well and disciplined I can position myself in that time. I still feel that Uranium will be the story of the next 5 years or so, and also Mining/energy companies with overseas projects as to avoid the KRUDD Tax.

Cheers

[MPC]

I disagree,
I spent all my 20's travelling the world and spending any money I had running off to a beach in Asia or mountainbiking around the middle east or chasing East European girls. Best thing I could have ever done and now I have the mindset in my 30's to work and make money sensibly with the added benefit of having ingrained frugality. Don't waste your 20's working I believe.
I admit though once the internet took off I was still travelling and keeping half an eye on the sharemarket.
I think money is actually quite easy to make but you have to know not to waste it once you have it and also we don't need 10 million each, one or two is plenty.

Cheers,
MPC

[Corporate]

Corporate I couldnt agree more. I just turned 26 but the knowledge I have gained from the last few years will literally set me up for life at some stage. Being cautious when I am in the markets... Knowing when to sell at a loss. Knowing when to be patient. Phaedrus Chart etc etc... These are all things that If I had have been better equipped before the GFC I would be filthy rich by now.

Some background... Started investing at age 20. Saved my ass off and by the GFC had $100k invested. Unfortunately alot of it was in risky stupid stocks as I was young and stupid. Still havent recovered most of it, but things are looking up. The oppurtunity cost of being tied up in a crap company like URA has taught me to appreciate not only money but also life in general.

The next boom i feel is just about to begin over the next year or so, and I will be in balls and all at the end of the next run. Where it will take me is up to how well and disciplined I can position myself in that time. I still feel that Uranium will be the story of the next 5 years or so, and also Mining/energy companies with overseas projects as to avoid the KRUDD Tax.

Cheers

Scorp - it sounds like we are in very similar circumstances. I was still very green when the GFC hit and had some shockers. Selling stocks are rock bottom when I should have held through, buying $10k worth of WCUO options and loosing the lot. Holding TSV far to long, and still being down 60%. However, there have been some great wins along the way, BCC, FGE, DWS, VMG. And then there were the ones that got away...nearly put the lot on BLY at 7c..prior to consolidation it reached 40c!!!

While I have recovered what I lost and more it was the experience of the whole thing that will be invaluable in the future.

[gazprom1]

But it isn't even that simple.

I have XXXX in the bank/invested, and I live in a rental and take the bus.

I'll reverse the question on you.

What is the point of me having a big house and flash car, even if I can afford it easily, if i don't even want them? Who would I be living for, me, or the people I'm trying to impress?

In my view, it isn't about either money or stuff. It's about happiness. Trying to do the things you like and having the things, and people, around that you want.

*ALL* I know is that if you don't have any real clue about what you may want when you are 20 (and I sure as hell didn't) there are worse things one can do than go like the clappers trying to get rich, then work the rest out later.

If I woke up tomorrow and decided my personality had changed and I wanted a flash house, I'd buy a flash house tomorrow.

I would *hate* to wake up at 35, decide the above, then have to pay back student loans and credit card debt, then maybe, if I'm incredibly lucky, I might get it (with a big fat mortgage) at 40 or so, to be paid off at 65. Stuff that.

SD,

I was stressing in my last post that the most important thing in life is to enjoy it and have a quality life. I was using cars, houses as examples - you'll note I didn't say flash cars or house...I said if you want to live in a s*** box and have a crapped out car. There is a subtle difference. You can have a comfortable (not flash) house and a nice (but not flash) car. You should satisfy whatever itch you have (travel, sports, girls, cars, etc) even if it means spending money in your 20/30's. I don't know why anyone should be working over 35 let alone 65 unless you enjoy it. If you enjoy taking the bus and living in someone elses house, more power to you SD. Freedom of opportunity and circumstance are paramount for me.....I don't care what people think of me as I live in the middle of nowhere (when I am not on vacation) but if I choose to drive a nice car because it gives me pleasure, I'll do it. If I want to go on holiday for 6 months, I'll do it...why?? Because I want to and I enjoy it.

Don't get me wrong, hard work is a great personal trait and should be admired. If working and saving gives you enjoyment and happiness, that is great as well.

[gazprom1]

I disagree,
I spent all my 20's travelling the world and spending any money I had running off to a beach in Asia or mountainbiking around the middle east or chasing East European girls. Best thing I could have ever done and now I have the mindset in my 30's to work and make money sensibly with the added benefit of having ingrained frugality. Don't waste your 20's working I believe.
I admit though once the internet took off I was still travelling and keeping half an eye on the sharemarket.
I think money is actually quite easy to make but you have to know not to waste it once you have it and also we don't need 10 million each, one or two is plenty.

Cheers,
MPC

MPC,

Great to hear and agree with you. I was studying here and abroad and just enjoying life in my early 20's. Spent and worked around the world until nearly 30. Decided to work a little harder and earnt some good money and decided that I had enough money for the rest of my life at 33. I love investing and it has the added benefit of making money if you keep focussed.

Agree with you re money, if you are smart it is not that hard to make.

[ELYOB]

Chasing girls gives one a good incentive to make more money . It is best to chase on a global basis . Earn in dollars , and pay em in peso ...

[gazprom1]

Just wanted to change the topic for a minute to see if there were any views on "doubling down". Possibly fits this thread as portfolio will be worth more or less depending on your investment strategy.

It is a highly contentious strategy and many have views against it...it is one of the big "no's" of investing according to various authors. I regulararly "double down" or more accuratley add signiifcantly to a losing position even in a down trending market provided the parameters of my initial investment have not changed or being compromised. I am FA investor and do not rely on TA much at all (I will look at a few indicators just to see what they are showing). I have had success with the strategy over the years and it rarely fails.

Are there any views out there????

My recent example was MAK. I orginally bought in around 40-41 after it had retrenched from the 60's it continued to trend down to, I think, an intra day 19 a few weeks back. I bought all along the curve from about 34 down to 21 probably tripling my initial investment on the way. I started selling again at 28.5 and sold a few on Friday at 41.5. Finished Friday at 42 and it looks like it could extend its gains. Fundamentally nothing really changed for MAK....phosphate still in the ground and financing still up in the air. Did the same with CFE/ CVN/ HZN for nice profits.

However, when the fundamentals change and the SP drops, I do not "double down". I currently hold BUL and losing money. The CSG storey is still being written but the parameters have changed and therefore do not think I will be adding to my position. Same re NGE, the dry hole changed things a little for me. Kind of ok to hold but do not want to add to my position as the risk profile of the company has changed a little for me.

Gazprom

[percy]

Just wanted to change the topic for a minute to see if there were any views on "doubling down". Possibly fits this thread as portfolio will be worth more or less depending on your investment strategy.

It is a highly contentious strategy and many have views against it...it is one of the big "no's" of investing according to various authors. I regulararly "double down" or more accuratley add signiifcantly to a losing position even in a down trending market provided the parameters of my initial investment have not changed or being compromised. I am FA investor and do not rely on TA much at all (I will look at a few indicators just to see what they are showing). I have had success with the strategy over the years and it rarely fails.

Are there any views out there????

My recent example was MAK. I orginally bought in around 40-41 after it had retrenched from the 60's it continued to trend down to, I think, an intra day 19 a few weeks back. I bought all along the curve from about 34 down to 21 probably tripling my initial investment on the way. I started selling again at 28.5 and sold a few on Friday at 41.5. Finished Friday at 42 and it looks like it could extend its gains. Fundamentally nothing really changed for MAK....phosphate still in the ground and financing still up in the air. Did the same with CFE/ CVN/ HZN for nice profits.

However, when the fundamentals change and the SP drops, I do not "double down". I currently hold BUL and losing money. The CSG storey is still being written but the parameters have changed and therefore do not think I will be adding to my position. Same re NGE, the dry hole changed things a little for me. Kind of ok to hold but do not want to add to my position as the risk profile of the company has changed a little for me.

Gazprom

I think your statement "provided the parameters of my initial investment have not changed or being compromised",sums it up.If you have confidence in your research why not.Bit like going into Ballantynes to buy a pair of pants and finding they have a special on"2 for the price of 1."

[soulman]

Gaz, as long as you make a buck, then it's not a bad strategy. You are your own investment manager and if the strategy works, then you shouldn't change it.

As with OTL, I sold out of MAK for a loss at 28 (bought for 41). Looking back now, it was a bad decision as I don't hold many and should just let it run (bottom drawer stuff). Sometimes, us mug can get lucky in the sharemarket as with RXL for me. Bought for 2.6 about last year. Saw it halves and still manage to sell it for 4.2 on the positive announcement a few months ago. Bottom drawer is definitely a go'er if the investment's not that large and the coy solid. MAK would fit in that criteria for me. Oh well.

Just look at all the losses for me for the past 3 months. All could be zero. CAH losses could be a $6K profits now. Many more like that. That's the sharemarket for you. Even a monkey can make good quid if the market runs. If only we have a crystal ball. Lotto number please.

[h2so4]

I think adding to a share that has gone down in price should always be balanced against your conviction for a particular share and other oportunities that may be available in the market. I liked CAB at $4.69 I liked it more when it's price retreated to $4.28 :)

[airedale]

Hi Gazprom, this is always an interesting mental/philosophical exercise. To average down or not.? I hold 1,000,000 ITC bought at 5.4 cents for what I considered sound reasons. Today's price 4.4 cents. Have I suffered "death by a thousand small cuts" or should I continue accumulating? I will continue to hold but feel brassed off because I didn't time it better. It is the despondecy/euphoria cycle.
A pre-dinner glass of red has helped to focus my aim.

[RRR]

I am guilty of averaging down. I started investing in Oct, 08 and missed the bottom by a huge margin. At one stage my portfolio was 40% down but my initial investment was only <10K and i did feel bad about it. But i reasoned myself saying losing 4K wouldn't make me any more poorer and hence i put more money on a regular basis since. I didn't have a clue about TA then. Now my portfolio is about 80K with 10% in the green. I haven't made the gains others in this forum have made investing during this GFC and the subsequent upturn. But I have learned heaps during this last 2 years and still learning(and about TA). Small investor like me are better off trading less often I think. Investors with much bigger portfolios and those with experience are in a much different situation and will view this differently.

[percy]

Hi Gazprom, this is always an interesting mental/philosophical exercise. To average down or not.? I hold 1,000,000 ITC bought at 5.4 cents for what I considered sound reasons. Today's price 4.4 cents. Have I suffered "death by a thousand small cuts" or should I continue accumulating? I will continue to hold but feel brassed off because I didn't time it better. It is the despondecy/euphoria cycle.
A pre-dinner glass of red has helped to focus my aim.

Can I ask if you brought in before the floods? why did you buy? I read they will not be able to resume drilling until next year, so looks as though it will be some time before the SP strenghtens.

[airedale]

Yes, Percy, I bought most of them before the floods. So in a land of drought I am confident that the floods will eventually drain away, and I note that one of the directors is still buying.

[STRAT]

Hi Gazprom.

IMO

Dont do it.

Ever.

Its one thing to stand by your research but if the market says you are wrong then you are wrong. Its often as not, about timing rather than being wrong in any case.

Even if it hurts too much to admit a buy was bad and sell, its surely only common sense to wait for it to bottom and sart up the other side before adding to the pile?

If you can make money by averaging down then you can do better by getting out and coming back another day

[float]

Hey STRAT.

i agree in most circumstances, however I think to take a loss on a company you've invested in, with good fundimentals is counter productive. (Given that a loss of 20% will require you to earn 125% of your next investment to break even). I suck at picking bottoms(sounds dodgey doesn't it), however "doubling down" does strenghten my position with a stock I believe in. And i guess that's the point I'm trying to make. If your really believe in a company I would tend to stick with them.
I try to invest in shares with very little (apparent) downside, and try to ignore short term market sentiment.

disclaimer:
not much experience :)

[gazprom1]

Hi Gazprom.

IMO

Dont do it.

Ever.

Its one thing to stand by your research but if the market says you are wrong then you are wrong. Its often as not, about timing rather than being wrong in any case.

Even if it hurts too much to admit a buy was bad and sell, its surely only common sense to wait for it to bottom and sart up the other side before adding to the pile?

If you can make money by averaging down then you can do better by getting out and coming back another day

Hey Strat,

Really appreciate your views and the views of others that have posted. There is no doubt that you are correct in stating it would be better to pull out and come back in another day. However, I do not pretend to know where the bottom is and I do have a lot of conviction about most stocks I invest in so would rather add to my position and "buy through" the bottom. I guess if I was 100% full time investing, I woudl do a TA/FA mix and be in and out more often.

One issue I have with TA v FA is that it was all doom and gloom two to three weeks ago with all the TA analysis saying you should be out of the market. Double dip was here. While double dip may still be around the corner we have had a huge rally . By the time the TA guys charts and indicators turned from purple to pink (a time to buy) they must have missed the first 10-20% of this rally. Conversley, I am starting to reduce postions slowly (take some profits) as the rally gains momentum.....the TA guys must be fully exposed right now and I am not convinced that is a good thing.....

Exciting day ahead....DOW closing 144 points up...we are going to be going to the races today!!!!=) We are on track for the best September in 71 years!!!!!

Gaz

[h2so4]

Crikey someone is excited.

[gazprom1]

Crikey someone is excited.

What are doing up h2so4? Must be early over there. I want to buy a new tractor out of profits and I am hoping today will tip me over the edge....need 3% more on my portfolio and I will be there!!!

Enjoy today!!!!

Gaz

[STRAT]

Hey STRAT.

i agree in most circumstances, however I think to take a loss on a company you've invested in, with good fundimentals is counter productive. (Given that a loss of 20% will require you to earn 125% of your next investment to break even). I suck at picking bottoms(sounds dodgey doesn't it), however "doubling down" does strenghten my position with a stock I believe in. And i guess that's the point I'm trying to make. If your really believe in a company I would tend to stick with them.
I try to invest in shares with very little (apparent) downside, and try to ignore short term market sentiment.

disclaimer:
not much experience :)Dead right there Float regarding the 20% loss requires a 25% gain to break even. No one can pick the bottom in advance but we can all see the bottom when the stock is on the way back up.

You will have losses and if you are right half the time you are doin ok I reckon. The trick is to keep em minimal.

No such thing as no or minimal down side. We are never fully informed, things change, **** happens. Just got to be ready when it does.

I Never ignore market sentiment. The beginning of every long down hill stretch is short term. Market sentiment is what makes us money too.

ITC is a good example of when upside dissapears. Sound company. Good prospects but taken down by an act of God. Been in a few times the last of which I took a loss. Bought at 5.8 , sold at 5.3 but thats better than having my limited funds tied up and sitting at 4.5. Of course its worth noting that my holding was small compared to Airedale and Bermuda so getting out was easier. I will go back.

[Phaedrus]

Here is a link to one of the best set of trading rules that I have ever found.

http://spahiu.wordpress.com/2006/05/27/the-not-so-simple/

These rules are in order of importance. Pay particular attention to the first 2.

[STRAT]

Hey Strat,

Really appreciate your views and the views of others that have posted. There is no doubt that you are correct in stating it would be better to pull out and come back in another day. However, I do not pretend to know where the bottom is and I do have a lot of conviction about most stocks I invest in so would rather add to my position and "buy through" the bottom. I guess if I was 100% full time investing, I woudl do a TA/FA mix and be in and out more often.

One issue I have with TA v FA is that it was all doom and gloom two to three weeks ago with all the TA analysis saying you should be out of the market. Double dip was here. While double dip may still be around the corner we have had a huge rally . By the time the TA guys charts and indicators turned from purple to pink (a time to buy) they must have missed the first 10-20% of this rally. Conversley, I am starting to reduce postions slowly (take some profits) as the rally gains momentum.....the TA guys must be fully exposed right now and I am not convinced that is a good thing.....

Exciting day ahead....DOW closing 144 points up...we are going to be going to the races today!!!!=) We are on track for the best September in 71 years!!!!!

GazHi Gaz.
Most TA guys and Gals assess daily. Yes we miss the first 10%. We dont often get the ones that double in a day if a company is able to keep a secret ( but there aint many of those lol ). Thats why both is best. TA & FA.

Good luck with the Tractor

[STRAT]

Here is a link to one of the best set of trading rules that I have ever found.

http://spahiu.wordpress.com/2006/05/27/the-not-so-simple/

These rules are in order of importance. Pay particular attention to the first 2.Hi Phaedrus. That document hung on the back of the door in my Loo for years. Its a goodin alright.

[h2so4]

Here is a link to one of the best set of trading rules that I have ever found.

http://spahiu.wordpress.com/2006/05/27/the-not-so-simple/

These rules are in order of importance. Pay particular attention to the first 2.

Crikey take a look at rule number 3

I'm no mercenary guerrilla. I think I'd feel better staying away from these rules.

[gazprom1]

Here is a link to one of the best set of trading rules that I have ever found.

http://spahiu.wordpress.com/2006/05/27/the-not-so-simple/

These rules are in order of importance. Pay particular attention to the first 2.

Hi Phaedrus,

I remember you posted those a while back when I floated the subject and has made me smile again today. You know that I respect your views and opinions. The rules are probably valid and well thought and developed over a long period.

I prefer to make my own rules for better or worse and they have been good to me. Yes, I would have done better by cutting and then reinvesting at a later date but I am not sure that I would have timed it right. I tried a new strategy earlier this year and it was a disaster...lost a small fortune. I have never made as much money as when I have added to a losing position....incredible as it may seem. It has been about 14-15 years of it.

This is the most incredible thing....everytime I invest a large amount into 1 or 2 stocks (a tractor or 2) they inevitable go down!!!!! Then I double and triple down and they come roaring back like nothing on earth. Do you think that is because people look at them when they are battered down and look at the fundamentals and say, "bargin"? Whereas before they may have been off the radar screen?

Psychology of the markets/investing are facsinating and are worthy of discussion.

STRAT - tractor day I hope. 190hp Valtra.

Good fortune to us all today.

Gazprom

[CJ]

Gazprom - if you are buying solely on fundamentals your rational makes sense - it appears to be a Buffett long term investment approach rather than a trading approach. If a company is the best deal you can find when the share price is $2, then it must be the best company you find when the share price has dropped to $1 (assume fundamentals and share prices of other companies haven't changed as well).Treat is as the best bargain you can find at that point in time and ignore the fact you already hold some and are technically averaging down. Then use technical analysis to determine if you dont buy now, will it go cheaper? Ideally you would only average down once.

[JBmurc]

T/A is also good ,when the market doesn't have the full F/A story managerment can drop a bombshell overnight to hurt the F/A picture -ROC a good example
but sometime I let F/A rule an buy when a Share has trended down CFE is a example I paid in the low 40's to buy more before they paid out the divie of 7cps the SP did down trend to high 30's then move to mid 40's ,once divie was paid the SP divied to low 30's I brought more as I believe it was oversold on F/A -T/A wise the divie made it look like I was catching a falling knife I wasn't F/A gave me the confindence to buy at those levels an now the S/P is back in the high 30's about to break free on a good ann.

One must have confindence is their own F/A-T/A

[gazprom1]

Strat - the tractor is within touching distance...up 2.2% right now. If MAK had not retreated from 45.5, I was in with room to spare. Nothing sold yet but close on two.

[STRAT]

Strat - the tractor is within touching distance...up 2.2% right now. If MAK had not retreated from 45.5, I was in with room to spare. Nothing sold yet but close on two.Thats good news Gaz.

I won a tractor today too :D

Check out AVBOB

[gazprom1]

Thats good news Gaz.

I won a tractor today too :D

Check out AVBOB

STRAT,

That is a beautiful thing to see AVBOB up like that. Wish I owned it but I don't . Congratulations. I am 2.44% up and it doesn't look like the tractor is going to be there today. CFE and CVN are underperforming.

Gaz

[STRAT]

STRAT,

That is a beautiful thing to see AVBOB up like that.
GazDoesnt happen often but its a day maker when it does

[trackers]

Doesnt happen often but its a day maker when it does

Daymaker? You must have some fun, its at least a month maker for me :D

[STRAT]

Daymaker? You must have some fun, its at least a month maker for me :DTo put things in perspective Ive had about 5 day makers in the last 4 years.

Of course it depends on how big your holding is

[h2so4]

STRAT,

That is a beautiful thing to see AVBOB up like that. Wish I owned it but I don't . Congratulations. I am 2.44% up and it doesn't look like the tractor is going to be there today. CFE and CVN are underperforming.

Gaz

Yes indeed.

I got a tractor tyre with RBD if that's any help Gaz?

[STRAT]

By not spending up large on sportscars and fancy houses, you can put your capital to good use earning an income for yourself. I started investing 10 years ago - this year I am officially retiring from work (at 40). My only wish was that I had started earlier in my 20's rather than being in debt and spending everything. I could have been retiring in the South of France instead of Melbourne. And I can tell you that the feeling that comes from knowing you dont ever have to work another 40 hour week is far better than that obtained from driving a flash car.

On another note, the older you get, the further up the career path you get, the more knowledgeable about shares you become - the more you realise that you dont have enough time in the world to devote to both work and investing. In my case, my work began to take time and attention away from monitoring my portfolio and researching new opportunities. I had to make a choice as to which one I wanted to be "best" at - I have chosen the markets and am now going to be a full time trader. I could not do this without a large capital base which was built up through years of sacrifice. And heck, once you get the right attitude, it doesnt even feel like a sacrifice!Well said KW. Im tempted to print that post and hang it on the loo door over Phadrus' trading rules. Anyone under 30 should

[gazprom1]

By not spending up large on sportscars and fancy houses, you can put your capital to good use earning an income for yourself. I started investing 10 years ago - this year I am officially retiring from work (at 40). My only wish was that I had started earlier in my 20's rather than being in debt and spending everything. I could have been retiring in the South of France instead of Melbourne. And I can tell you that the feeling that comes from knowing you dont ever have to work another 40 hour week is far better than that obtained from driving a flash car.

On another note, the older you get, the further up the career path you get, the more knowledgeable about shares you become - the more you realise that you dont have enough time in the world to devote to both work and investing. In my case, my work began to take time and attention away from monitoring my portfolio and researching new opportunities. I had to make a choice as to which one I wanted to be "best" at - I have chosen the markets and am now going to be a full time trader. I could not do this without a large capital base which was built up through years of sacrifice. And heck, once you get the right attitude, it doesnt even feel like a sacrifice!

KW,

Interesting. I retired at 33 and have spent right from when I started earning. You can spend while you earn and enjoy all the pursuits that you are interested in. I didn't own a car until I was 33 but that is not the point. The point was you don't have to sacrifice everything in the pursuit of capital preservation....spend, earn, spend, earn....a year here or there is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. You could get runover by a car or your passport stolen by an MP tomorrow and if you have not taken time to enjoy whatever you enjoy then that would be a tragedy IMHO!!!!=)=)

[Lego_Man]

I sold TAP today for a 25% loss. Too many dusters and there are more exciting fish to fry out there.

[trackers]

Hi Phaedrus,

I remember you posted those a while back when I floated the subject and has made me smile again today. You know that I respect your views and opinions. The rules are probably valid and well thought and developed over a long period.

I prefer to make my own rules for better or worse and they have been good to me. Yes, I would have done better by cutting and then reinvesting at a later date but I am not sure that I would have timed it right. I tried a new strategy earlier this year and it was a disaster...lost a small fortune. I have never made as much money as when I have added to a losing position....incredible as it may seem. It has been about 14-15 years of it.

This is the most incredible thing....everytime I invest a large amount into 1 or 2 stocks (a tractor or 2) they inevitable go down!!!!! Then I double and triple down and they come roaring back like nothing on earth. Do you think that is because people look at them when they are battered down and look at the fundamentals and say, "bargin"? Whereas before they may have been off the radar screen?

Psychology of the markets/investing are facsinating and are worthy of discussion.

STRAT - tractor day I hope. 190hp Valtra.

Good fortune to us all today.

Gazprom

Hi Gazprom,

As you are one of the more successful investors on these forums, I'd say continue doing what you're doing.

In my opinion, TA works the same as science. A theory is deemed to be valid if it can be proven to work again and again. TA indicators/rules are good if over time they return results better than buy and hold / the average market.

If your system returns results that beat the market consistently over a long period of time, then all power to you...

[percy]

One of the things I have learnt along the way is that averaging down is a fools game. I would only now advise to do it if the company is sound and you are picking up a good dividend income for a cheap price with a long term view to hold for income purposes. If you are relying on capital gains, then use TA to get out, and then wait for a new entry later. In the meantime put your money to better use by buying stocks that are in an uptrend.

Someone once said the market is like the ocean. You can stand on shore and scream at it "I am right" but in the end the wave will hit you, you will be washed out to sea, and you will drown. Don't try to tell the ocean that it is wrong and you are right. You will never win. It is always best to "go with the flow". Get out when the tide is out, and get back in when the tide is coming in.

This is a VERY hard lesson to learn, as we all have pride and ego built into our decisions to buy which make us determined to not sell and be proven wrong. But capital preservation is paramount.

Today I sold my TPM stock. That hurt. But I will put my money somewhere else, keep an eye on TPM and look for a new entry point once the stock runs off its high P/E. (For the record, TPM exceeded guidance which I knew it would do, but forecast no EBITDA growth for FY11 which I didnt expect).

KW.Offcourse you are right.In about 1990 SCY in NZ went into receivership.The last day they were listed the SP was half a cent.A few months later I was buying fence paint,and they were out of the colour I needed more of.I thought buggar,they are in receivership and will not be able to get more.I asked if they could get more?.Salesman apologised and said sorry but they would not have more until 2pm that day.Great,so I walked round the whole shop.Well stocked,the stock was clean and no old stock.Staff most helpfull and displays were good.So I started buying.Brokers were keen to sell me deceased estates shares.I had an understanding with a couple of brokers to take these shares.Brokers were so happy they did not charge me brokerage.Over the next 10 years I just kept buying.Some months the shares were 19cents,a couple of weeks later 12cents.Like the tide,the SP came in ,then it went out.There were spring high tides and winter low tides.Whenever the SP went down I would go into their store and look around.Still well stocked,staff still helpful,still a store I was pleased to hold.kept buying the shares.Then they came out of receivership.Brokers were then selling me odd lots without brokerage.In the end I was receiving as much in divie as the shares had cost me. .Well ofcourse the shares kept going up.I beleive I understood the company as well as the directors did,certainly better than any other shareholder.I sold down 2 years ago over fears the govt was giving workers too many benefits,that I thought retailers would have trouble paying.I was also concerned with the huge amount of competition there in retail.I sold most of my holding at 60cents.

[gazprom1]

[Quote Someone once said the market is like the ocean. You can stand on shore and scream at it "I am right" but in the end the wave will hit you, you will be washed out to sea, and you will drown. Don't try to tell the ocean that it is wrong and you are right. You will never win. It is always best to "go with the flow". Get out when the tide is out, and get back in when the tide is coming in. ]

I think that for the majority of investors that may be true KW. For me it is not the case. I view the ocean coming and take a couple of steps back and cast my net. If it keeps coming, I take a couple of more steps back until the ocean stops coming in. The flow will change over time provied you have invested wisely. There is a caveat here - if you are leveraged or need to get your money out, you will be history as you will not have any room to move!!!!

[h2so4]

Hey Gaz is that why are you buying a tractor in retirement? So you don't get stuck in the mud when the tide goes out.:D

[gazprom1]

You mean when the tide comes in??=)=) No, I have a couple of farms and run a few tractors on them. One up North needs another one....not sure it is worth the capital expenditure but I am ok with providing one.

Day ended a little disappointing...up 1.34%....still happy!!!!!

[newbe]

Excellent thread guys and it has made great reading AND learning. The different views and the knowledge in here is awesome and I am soaking it up like a spunge!

I am 29 and have aproximately $50k invested but currently around $10K down. Started with $30K when first starting trading around 2 years ago. Stocks are mainly mining ones and I have never sold at a loss, my style seems to be delevoping into one that carries around 4-7 highly under valued stocks in the hope that thier market cap slowly tends towards their book values either organically or by take over. IRN has been good to me - twice! PEM would have been but didn't sell. You live and you learn.

My wife and I live in a respectable home in the hill suburbs of CHCH and we drive reasonably modern respectiable cars. We own over half of our home and although I could put that $40K into the mortgage, long term I see it better being spent learning the markets so that when the mortgage is paid (we are also hammering it when possible) I will have good market knowledge enabling a continuing income stream. We have worked extremely hard through our 20's and saved/invested probably around half. The other half has been spent on quality cars, jetskis, mountain bikes and holidays. And this where lies they key I think, no matter what you earn save half and spend half. This will enable some growth plus you get to have fun along the way. As others have said in this thread there is no point in becoming a rich old scrooge who has never stepped outside their place of birth and never experienced modern fun technology that does cost money but also increases qualiy of life.

ps. First baby due any day now so that could throw a spanner in the works!

Keep up the great posts!

[trackers]

Hey Newbe, pretty much same story here. I'm 28, live in chch, reasonable home, about the same invested and we just had our first bubba! Don't have a jetski though :(

[percy]

Hey Newbe, pretty much same story here. I'm 28, live in chch, reasonable home, about the same invested and we just had our first bubba! Don't have a jetski though :(

As Fred Dagg would say"you don't realise how lucky you are." Good luck with the babies.

[h2so4]

As Fred Dagg would say"you don't realise how lucky you are." Good luck with the babies.

Nice percy :)

What he should have said was " we don't realise how abundantly wealthy and rich we all are."

But I guess the last verse came pretty close

We don't know how lucky we are, get it right
We just don't realise how fortunate we are
We have no idea, the luck, we possess, collectively
We just don't know how lucky we all are.

[newbe]

Hey Newbe, pretty much same story here. I'm 28, live in chch, reasonable home, about the same invested and we just had our first bubba! Don't have a jetski though :(

Nice trackers. I hope all is going well. We are at the had enough and just hurry up and come out stage.

[gazprom1]

Thats good news Gaz.

I won a tractor today too :D

Check out AVBOB

AVBOB - another great day - you must be smiling STRAT. Will not be long before you get another tractor...=)

Y'day ended a little better than I thought with the 4.10 final trades...up 1.68%. Need that 1.32% today...thinking that I will not get there...currently up....0.66%.

Gaz

[STRAT]

AVBOB - another great day - you must be smiling STRAT. Will not be long before you get another tractor...=)

Y'day ended a little better than I thought with the 4.10 final trades...up 1.68%. Need that 1.32% today...thinking that I will not get there...currently up....0.66%.

GazBest ride Ive ever had Gaz. Better than one of them 450hp Tractors.

Should give me a bump in Shrewdys Comp too :D

[Sideshow Bob]

Nice trackers. I hope all is going well. We are at the had enough and just hurry up and come out stage.

We just had #1 arrive three months ago. Bubba sleeps and feeds very well. This makes life a hell of alot easier.

Otherwise great thread and learnt alot. Thanks peeps.

SSB

[h2so4]

We just had #1 arrive three months ago. Bubba sleeps and feeds very well. This makes life a hell of alot easier.

Otherwise great thread and learnt alot. Thanks peeps.

SSB

Think we need a new thread for all the spin offs.:D

[Sideshow Bob]

I think a bit of wisdom would come out on a parenting thread

[gazprom1]

Best ride Ive ever had Gaz. Better than one of them 450hp Tractors.

Should give me a bump in Shrewdys Comp too :D

Hey STRAT,

Finally pushed over the line today...up 3.32% for the week which gave me the funds I needed for the tractor...transpires that I couldn't do the deal I wanted to do so I am on the hunt for one. Sold a few CVN today at 43 cents...it keeps on coming out with positive ann. I have had a really nice run with them. Alos, BUR has made a nice run the past week or so....it is a beautiful thing.

Hope it has been a good day for you!!!

Gaz

[STRAT]

Flat as a pancake today Gaz but its been a good week/month.

Nice to be playing again too after a fairly long stint sitting on my hands. When the going gets tough I get out and watch from the side lines. Theres no doubt in my mind that this is the single most important thing I do. Spent 6 months just watching last year and 3 months abouts this year. CUE and OROOA were the only stocks I held through the last slide.

Dont forget to flash a pic of that new Tractor when it comes.

If you dont mind me askin. Farmer or Life Sentence Block?

[gazprom1]

Flat as a pancake today Gaz but its been a good week/month.

Nice to be playing again too after a fairly long stint sitting on my hands. When the going gets tough I get out and watch from the side lines. Theres no doubt in my mind that this is the single most important thing I do. Spent 6 months just watching last year and 3 months abouts this year. CUE and OROOA were the only stocks I held through the last slide.

Dont forget to flash a pic of that new Tractor when it comes.

If you dont mind me askin. Farmer or Life Sentence Block?

2000 acres. Mainly does barley/cattle/sheep. Have 3 employees. I run it from remote (Thailand/ Europe) for 4/5 months a year but the likes of now I am here to ensure everythig is done how it should be. Satisfying to see things grow.

We have had a magic few weeks in the markets and it nice to be talking about profits as opposed to recouping losses or just plain losing money. I tend to ride out the storms and add money in...as you know. I have a little cash on the sidelines. I have been trying to buy a couple of stocks but they are moving away from me and I don't enjoy chasing stocks. CUE has really boomed. I bought and sold it ages ago and made a few pennies and have not returned...wish I had though. Interestingly, I had my first foray into NZO for two years a couple of weeks back. Made 7 cents a share over a couple of days....great!!

Just going to watch some CNBC.....

Gazprom

[gazprom1]

Following on from the discussion about saving/spending/investment and doubling down, I wanted to raise the topic of portfolio diversification/risk/age.

Without getting into all the technicalities of modern portfolio theory, IMO while you are young (and as discussed previously saving little IMHO) those savings should be exposed to super high risk stocks in a portfolio that is not diversified - that is, maybe 2 or 3 stocks. Reasoning is that those savings can be replaced as you have time (in your life) to earn more and will be earning (typically) more as you get more experience with your career. Obviously it comes down to personal circumstances (kids/ mortgage, etc) a little and how the risk/reward profile sits within those circumstances. However, if one wants to become wealthy (relative term) before they are old (40) and subject to the ravages of time, concentration of ones portfolio will help achieve this aim. Geographical diversification is something to consider as is sector diversification. I always try to have 80% of my portfolio in 4-5 stocks - in medium to high risk stocks (GAZ/MAK/HZN/CVN etc). I then have another 5-10 stocks that make up the remaining 20 odd percent - I typically would trade those stocks more often and they would typically be very high risk (options/penny stocks). I am typically 100% invested in the ASX but do hold a few NZX, RTS and FTSE stocks. I can tolerate wild fluctuations in value.

Would appreciate views of others especially as it may relate to those starting out. Diversity (pun intended) of views is the spice of life. Let’s not get caught up into a discussion of what you may or may not spend that wealth on.

Thanks
GaZprom

[Ptolemy]

Hi Gazprom

I have tended to follow a similar strategy to you although I probably don't trade as much as you. If I was starting out as a new investor I think I would drop the other smaller stocks and just stick to 4-5 growth stocks. The smaller holdings take a lot of time in researching and tend to give modest returns. I was looking over my "sold" portfolio yesterday. 80% of my profits have come from 20% of the shares I have held - no surpises there. My conclusion though is that you have to make sure you pick at least 1 of those 5 shares is a belter and then let it run when it goes - Phaedrus berated me once for selling a half of my shares when it it had doubled up in price. It was a good lesson to learn. It doubled again.

When I do sell down a share now it is usually because it has stalled and I feel that is fully priced. I try to park the proceeds into a similar share at a less advanced stage in the same sector. I think picking the right sector is 50% of the battle in getting good returns. Picking the right stock is the harder but it sure narrows down the field if you know which sector to look at. I tend to invest in resource stocks, although recently have tended to holding 20% of my portfolio in blue chip industrial paying good divs. Income is becoming more important to me.

cheers

[STRAT]

they are old (40) and subject to the ravages of time.Easy does it there bud.:scared:
I still have a spring in my step and when I look down I can still see my feet etc:cool:

[STRAT]

Hi KW.
May I ask how old you were when you set down that path?

[CJ]

I also run a portfolio of about 30 stocks - I usually cant pick which one will outperform the market in a short time frame, but so long as all of them are moving in the right direction and paying dividends, I dont much care.So do you sell and if so when. What did you do when the GFC hit? hold on for the ride or did you get out.

I think your method is similar to where I am heading but I am a bit vague on the sell side at the moment.

[gazprom1]

I prefer the old fashioned way - no high risk stocks at all. Every penny saved was hard come by, so I've no wish to lose even a bit of it. Best book on stock picking I've read is The Intelligent Investor (Ben Graham) - I figured if it got Warren Buffet started on the right track it can do the same for me (and it did). Strong companies in high growth sectors, paying healthy dividends which are reinvested. Let the power of compounding work for you. It is also boring - which from a psychological aspect is a good thing as you are not tempted to "double down" on ever higher risk stocks in order to make back your losses (which usually results in losing even more). I don't believe in the "pick a few penny stocks, cross your fingers, and hope you strike it lucky" method of trading. I also run a portfolio of about 30 stocks - I usually cant pick which one will outperform the market in a short time frame, but so long as all of them are moving in the right direction and paying dividends, I dont much care.

90% of traders wipe out of the market in the first year due to high risk, concentrated portfolios (according to Alexander Elder). Sure, you might be the 1 in 10 who doesnt, but why risk it when there are much easier ways to make money.

Hi KW,

I guess I just have a much higher risk tolerance than you KW. Not sure what you mean about "cross your fingers, and hope to strike it lucky" re the penny stocks. It is more about assessed risk on those penny stocks. Penny stocks are not necessarily higher risk or more likely to fail. Re your boring comment, not particularlry helpful to those trying to make money and learn from the forum. It is fine if you want steady income earning shares but others may want higher risk and higher potential return. While I do not know you background re investing, I have spent many years managing other peoples money and my own and there is merit in having a highly concentrated portfolio if your risk appetite allows this.

Comment re 90% of traders get wiped out. Do you know why? Because they decided to throw in their day job , throw some darts at the financial times and pick their stocks. Smart investors do their research and assess their risk. Losign money in the market teaches one valuable lessons and helps assess your risk.


Happy trading!!!!!

[OldRider]

Have held DTL for some years now, IRR over this period 36.35%. Revenue growth has been good and dividends received
are now over 65% of investment cost.

Most interesting point for me though is capex, only once over $1m, the rest under $0.5m on revenue last year
of over $500m, this gives the cash for the dividends.

Why speculate on penny miners with stocks like this?

[airedale]

I have read Alex Elder and he makes sense talking about emotional detachment and money management. I also saw him years ago at A STANZ meeting in Auckland, and he made me aware of the similarity between gambling and punting on the market. Yes, it can be addictive for some.
So I keep that in mind every day.
Another author is Australian, Darryl Guppy who suggests that one should remove some of one's profits from the market in to a lower risk vehicle.
He writes about the pyramid theory. First there is the Egyptian model straight up,but if you fall you roll right back to the bottom. Then he recommends the Mayan pyramid which goes up in a series of steps with a little ledge at each step. You withdraw profits at each stage so you are not at risk of losing the lot.

[gazprom1]

That's what I cant understand either. Its so easy to find these stocks (simple stock search function does the trick) - look for 3 years of increasing profits and dividends, with ROC and ROE over 10%, and P/E under 15.

Let me help your understanding...because you get rich!!!! If I was looking at 20-30% return pa, I wouldn't waste my time. Put your money in a lock-up hedge fund with a long term track record and go on holiday. I want 100% plus a year on my portfolio...risk/return!

[buns]

Let me help your understanding...because you get rich!!!! If I was looking at 20-30% return pa, I wouldn't waste my time. Put your money in a lock-up hedge fund with a long term track record and go on holiday. I want 100% plus a year on my portfolio...risk/return!

Hmm I think that is going a tad far Gazprom, if you are favouring a high risk approach at 100% over an (how you make it sound) an easy 20-30% you must be purely investing for fun.

Anyone investing for wealth who thought 20-30% was very easily achievable would borrow for Africa at 6% and get the 20-30% PA returns, and would still beat someone investing lower amounts on high risk returns.

These guys (income investors) all have valid points, and sound successful in there strategy’s. They sound like value investors, who have followed buffet type systems. Maybe they need the income? Maybe they have a green sustainability mindset and flag oil? Who knows – but we all invest for different reasons, and at the end of the day if one reaches there intended goal they have done well. There is no right strategy that will fit all investors. Would you stand up at Buffets AGM and throw these kinds of comments around?

Anyhow – I know we share a common interest in ACL, so anyone else owning that who is gunning for a 100% return makes me feel better

[gazprom1]

Buns,

You are on the money - we all have different objectives. My initial comment/idea was to get feedback on diversifiation of portfolio /risk/age but KW wanted to talk about penny stocks for some reason. Reason for the idea was to get constructive feedback for the younger guys who are looking to build wealth and my thoughts were that they could afford a higher risk/ less diversified portfolio as they have time and earning potential on their side to recoup any losses but their upside is huge.

[Corporate]

That's what I cant understand either. Its so easy to find these stocks (simple stock search function does the trick) - look for 3 years of increasing profits and dividends, with ROC and ROE over 10%, and P/E under 15.

Hi KW

What stock search function do you use?

Thanks
C

[trackers]

Hi KW

What stock search function do you use?

Thanks
C

Corporate, at a guess: http://www.ascii-data.com/

That'll give you a lot of it. I use it to find small caps with good NTA's..

I'm with Gazprom on all of this btw - I hope you make it to a chch catchup sometime!

[RRR]

Chch earthquake is a good example and one need to diversify across the asset class no matter what your age is me thinks. I heard a horror story of a very successful property investor(until before the quake) with 5 properties here in Chch but guess what he didnt have insurance and all his properties were badly damaged!! I just hope that he has decent share/cash investments too.

If I was 15 years younger, I would regularly invest in blue chips with good and growing dividend record and once my portfolio is large enough, I would then invest smaller amounts in more risky shares. Most investors dont have the time or expertise to chase high returns and they may not be good stock pickers(me). Chasing high returns will obviously increase the risk and the stress levels!! Do we need that? Most beginners misunderstand the meaning of 'risk'.

My strategy is to use revolving credit to the fullest(I just leave a few thousand dollars as my emergency fund) to invest in shares and it has worked just fine for me and I sell NZ dollar when it appreciates and invest overseas during correction. When I hit 50, my fresh investment money will go to cash instruments and ladder the portfolio. I have no intention to retire any time soon and I do enjoy my work.

Target return-10-20%. I think most investors should stick to KW approach-safe and boring.

[airedale]

Do you wake up and say "Hi I'm Airedale and I am a loser" :-)
Did you take his advice and attend an AA meeting?
I'm curious as to whether its worth doing, as I'm contemplating doing it when I start trading as a full time job.

Hi KW, The answer to both of your questions is ..no. Is it worth doing? that depends on your personality, but it won't do you any harm if you feel that you may have addictive tendencies.

[h2so4]

Buns,

You are on the money - we all have different objectives. My initial comment/idea was to get feedback on diversifiation of portfolio /risk/age but KW wanted to talk about penny stocks for some reason. Reason for the idea was to get constructive feedback for the younger guys who are looking to build wealth and my thoughts were that they could afford a higher risk/ less diversified portfolio as they have time and earning potential on their side to recoup any losses but their upside is huge.

What happens if you lose the lot on your 40th birthday? Now you are old. (Ha!) All your hard work and investing equals zero. Well you can always make it up by continuing to still work and adding to your income with safer long term investments.

Far better to cross out age from your equation and re evaluate risk (whatever that means for you so you are comfortable) then it is possible to invest for a lifetime. But if you are going to invest with some pre conceived idea that you can make up any loss because you have time on your side well that just sounds dumb.

Even though I think your view is pretty much the general consensus, just remember that 2+2=4 is still a very powerful concept.

Still waiting to see a pic of you on that tractor.:)

[bermuda]

Let me help your understanding...because you get rich!!!! If I was looking at 20-30% return pa, I wouldn't waste my time. Put your money in a lock-up hedge fund with a long term track record and go on holiday. I want 100% plus a year on my portfolio...risk/return!

Me too Gazprom,
Trouble is I got whacked this year due to Rudd and Flood and am struggling to break even after having been down over 20% earlier. Things are coming right rapidly and I have the chance to finish plus 50% if we can get a CSG to LNG project approved. Anyway, like you I aim higher. When I buy a stock I aim for a 5 bagger at least. They don't all coincide together...some of them even go down,... but that's what I aim for.

Altiora Peto ( we seek higher things )

[gazprom1]

Disagree h2so4. Age is a major factor in ones risk/ reward profile. It also applies to life outside of investing. We take more risks when we are younger in the likes of sports, careers, etc. I never have a preconceived idea about making up losses it is simply putting more money to work when you earn more money . It is not rocket science that we are involved in....research, research, research...know what you are buying and understanding the risks. Extraneous unknown factors will hurt all stocks.

The best investors I know (and the wealthiest) are vultures and risk takers. They come into risky markets in horrible times and back the truck up. For example, Argentina debt and currency crisis, Turkey debt and currency crisis, Russian debt and currency crisis and the GFC. That is how to make serious life altering money.

There are several ways to skin a cat and it is good to get different views. I think it is excellent that there are guys out there building up their wealth through careful analysis. KW - I appreciate your views but don't like terminology that is personal in nature.

H2so4 - Bought a XTX200 McCormick....turns up tomorrow. Front hitch/PTO, cab and front suspension, Cummins 6 cylinder. Looking at making some money this week to buy a spike rotor but not overly optimistic at this point. How do I get a picture on the forum?

Bermuda - I see VPE has had a little bit of a lift with the management changes and profit announcement etc. It has been such an underperformer....I don't currently own (but have done). I know you have posted historically about what will drive the SP. Any new views?

Gazprom

[percy]

Disagree h2so4. Age is a major factor in ones risk/ reward profile. It also applies to life outside of investing. We take more risks when we are younger in the likes of sports, careers, etc. I never have a preconceived idea about making up losses it is simply putting more money to work when you earn more money . It is not rocket science that we are involved in....research, research, research...know what you are buying and understanding the risks. Extraneous unknown factors will hurt all stocks.

The best investors I know (and the wealthiest) are vultures and risk takers. They come into risky markets in horrible times and back the truck up. For example, Argentina debt and currency crisis, Turkey debt and currency crisis, Russian debt and currency crisis and the GFC. That is how to make serious life altering money.

There are several ways to skin a cat and it is good to get different views. I think it is excellent that there are guys out there building up their wealth through careful analysis. KW - I appreciate your views but don't like terminology that is personal in nature.

H2so4 - Bought a XTX200 McCormick....turns up tomorrow. Front hitch/PTO, cab and front suspension, Cummins 6 cylinder. Looking at making some money this week to buy a spike rotor but not overly optimistic at this point. How do I get a picture on the forum?

Bermuda - I see VPE has had a little bit of a lift with the management changes and profit announcement etc. It has been such an underperformer....I don't currently own (but have done). I know you have posted historically about what will drive the SP. Any new views?

Gazprom

I went to www.mccormickusa.com and found details and photos.Great looking beast.well done.Nice to see tangible results from investing.

[STRAT]

How do I get a picture on the forum?

GazpromI save photos to my PC and then upload them as attachments in the "Go Advanced" section of the posting page. Bottom RHC of your posts. There is a size limit though.

Is this your baby?

[STRAT]

Now this would be my kind of Tractor

[gazprom1]

I save photos to my PC and then upload them as attachments in the "Go Advanced" section of the posting page. Bottom RHC of your posts. There is a size limit though.

Is this your baby?

It is indeed Strat...thanks. I liked the engine. We run 3 other Valtras on the farms and I love them but thought I would try something different not that I will drive it... I will have a play on it tomorrow for a few hours.

Percy - it is the best thing about investing is seeing the rewards like the tractor. Then the tractor will go earn some money for me...diversification=)=)=)

Have a great day!!!!

[gazprom1]

Now this would be my kind of Tractor

I think a few posters would not like your tractor Strat....they may see it as flashy!!!=)=) I have a "couple" of interesting vehicles....I will mention one as it should not be deemed too be flashy. It is a XK150 Jag...1952. It is beautiful....and seat of your pants fast.

[STRAT]

I think a few posters would not like your tractor Strat....they may see it as flashy!!!=)=) I have a "couple" of interesting vehicles....I will mention one as it should not be deemed too be flashy. It is a XK150 Jag...1952. It is beautiful....and seat of your pants fast.Hi Gaz.
Yup. That model Jag was ahead of its time. To me, with cars like the Bugatti its about the drive. Not the look. Its academic in any case. I would have to sell everything I own and borrow more money to get one. Its not and never will be on my shopping list. Just something to fantasize about.

[h2so4]

Love the big red tractor and the cars. :)


Disagree h2so4. Age is a major factor in ones risk/ reward profile. It also applies to life outside of investing. We take more risks when we are younger in the likes of sports, careers, etc. I never have a preconceived idea about making up losses it is simply putting more money to work when you earn more money . It is not rocket science that we are involved in....research, research, research...know what you are buying and understanding the risks.

"Research" and "knowing", to me that's not risk.

Sounds to me that you are weighing up opportunities.

Maybe you can take risk out of your equation.

[bermuda]

Gazprom,
Sentiment change in a stock can be quite sudden. It is happening now. There are several major drivers for VPE
1. Management changes .
2. Forthcoming CSG results...and BG announcement of FID at Gladstone
3. Increasing ex QGC staff on payroll
4. Access to Cooper Basin
5. Possible aquisition of ITC thus giving VPE total control of significant oil reserves and production.

I have stuck with this stock because it is a standout story. The negative baggage is being offloaded now. ( and boy there is a lot of it )

[STRAT]

Sorry - but what exactly have I said that was personally insulting to you??? I was wondering the same thing

[gazprom1]

Sorry - but what exactly have I said that was personally insulting to you??? All I have talked about is my investment strategy - what I believe in, and what I think is best avoided. Which is the whole point of this thread. Just because I dont like penny stocks and companies that do not make a profit, does not mean that I am personally insulting your investment style. It simply means I dont like penny stocks and companies that do not make a profit. An expression of an opinion or trading strategy is not an attack on an opposing opinion - simply the voicing of a different view.

Hi Kw,

I guess your comments a couple of days back stating that the strategy I used was like "gambling" and "taking a punt" - there was also a reference to boring. I always try to avoid trashing others views even though I may not agree with their style and try be respectful in my postings. Maybe I am too sensitvie in my old age (that is 40 remember Strat=)=)=). I can still remember my first and only 40 bagger - Gazprom!!!!

Your strategy and ticking away and investing in income/growth stocks for your targeted return suits your profile. Investing in higher risk stocks with potentially higher return suits my profile as it has worked for me over the years and made me "wealthy".

[steve fleming]

And I stand by my comment that buying junior resource stocks with no operational business/revenues/profits in the hope that they may find something while digging - is gambling. Thats my personal opinion, and no insult was intended. You may not think its gambling, but if i were to do it myself then I definately would feel like I was gambling. Again - a reference to how I feel about things is not intended to be taken personally by others.

Hi KW,
While I agree with a lot of what you say, and much of the advice you give, I think that your attitude in relation to junior resource stocks, is well, a little bit close minded.

Yes, it is difficult to apply an earnings based valuation methodology to jun-ex's, but it is certainly possible to assess them based on an asset based approach, paticularly those that have JORCs. The more advanced explorers that have undertaken scoping studies/ feasibilities generally have DCFs modelled provide a pretty good basis for valuations.

Indeed, I personally find it a lot easier to identify value/ mis-pricing in jun-ex's than most 'boring' industrials.

My strategy of taking positions in micro-caps and in particular small explorers, and the resulting many multi-bagger returns I have acheived, has enabled me to pay off our mortgage and accumulate a reasonably substantial investment portfolio by my early 30s.

My strategy definitely is not for everyone, and is not one that I recommend, but i do disagree with your view in relation to junior explorers. However, I do think your advice to those starting out is pretty sound!

[Huang Chung]

I too would agree with Steve Flemming on this one.

I've been burnt my many income producing stocks. Missing earnings targets can mean an industrial stock takes an absolute belting.

Maybe I'm just not good at picking the better ones...

Gazprom....I would have thought a John Deere would have been the tractor of choice....is that true, and why, may I ask, did you give the big green machine a miss?

[Skol]

My portfolio's worth a whole lot more with the NZD now .761 AUD.

[stephens.pc]

KW, if everybody had your attitude towards junior companies there wouldn't be anything but junior companies to invest in. All ventures have to start somewhere, and they can't become "fully fledged", money making businesses without capital from early stage investors. These investors understand that not all of their investments will succeed, but those that do will generally produce returns great enough to more than compensate for any failures.

[CJ]

Steve, what percentage of these companies actually end up being fully fledged miners and making money and delivering on those DCF forecasts?

To add to your question: I assume all these small companies that are listed have a DCF forecast showing it is undervalued (joking but you get my point). How do you determine which are telling the truth, and which aren't considering you in theory, have no more information that the rest of the market has. Based on the return you are expecting, the risk must also be high.