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View Full Version : Property Investment Seminars - which one's are real and which one's are scams?



muave
10-12-2010, 02:59 PM
I'm continually trying to educate myself in the property market by attending seminars, reading books, audio CD's etc. It seems that half of the things available are either get rich schemes or people talking themselves up to make a living out of it. How hard can it be to find someone who has written a genuine book relaying genuine (and relative to nz) methods, guides & strategies???? :confused:

POSSUM THE CAT
10-12-2010, 07:01 PM
Muave IMO all of them are scams. Beware of Greeks Bearing Gifts

peat
10-12-2010, 08:15 PM
muave
read Martin Hawes book on Property investment
while relatively simple I think if you read it carefully you will find it worthwhile for thirty bucks
http://www.martinhawes.com/books.shtml
3097

or better still , do a paper in property investment extramurally from one of the universities. there was one as part of the diploma I just completed and the Hawes book was part of the recommended reading. I could flick you some stuff as well. PM me if your interested.

robo
11-12-2010, 06:08 PM
I'm continually trying to educate myself in the property market by attending seminars, reading books, audio CD's etc. It seems that half of the things available are either get rich schemes or people talking themselves up to make a living out of it. How hard can it be to find someone who has written a genuine book relaying genuine (and relative to nz) methods, guides & strategies???? :confused:
hey Muave I belong to the local property investors assoc and find the speakers there pretty good,they have bought in a few investors with diverse strategies which i have gained heaps out of, i suppose it would depend on whos running your local, would agree that commercial seminars are a crock of ra ra property scmoossers

muave
13-12-2010, 10:48 AM
hey Muave I belong to the local property investors assoc and find the speakers there pretty good,they have bought in a few investors with diverse strategies which i have gained heaps out of, i suppose it would depend on whos running your local, would agree that commercial seminars are a crock of ra ra property scmoossers

sounds like a good place to start. whats the best way to track them down, or can you give me a website, contact etc? thanks

muave
13-12-2010, 10:50 AM
Muave IMO all of them are scams. Beware of Greeks Bearing Gifts
they all sound good at the time but if you do enough digging you quickly find that they've misconstrued their position and success..... makes sense really. why would someone go to the effort of speaking to groups of people if they're successful enough to be able to do what ever they wanted.

robo
13-12-2010, 12:13 PM
just move your cursor to the left of this bulletin board and click on google and type in NZPIF and your local will be listed there, I find it great being able to talk to people who have been in the game for decades, and like on this forum there are many different outlooks such as buy and hold,traders, developers, they also have agencies come in and give briefings about legislation changes etc etc good luck muave

minimoke
14-12-2010, 06:26 AM
Mauve. Good advice above. Remember Rule No One.
The first people to make money out of property these days are those that sell Property Investment Seminars. It does not follow that attendees will do the same.

I'd go as far as saying that those attending Property Investment Seminars are likely to loose money in property because they don't understand Rule No One.

airedale
14-12-2010, 10:54 AM
"and success..... makes sense really. why would someone go to the effort of speaking to groups of people if they're successful enough to be able to do what ever they wanted. "

Went to listen to Doug Somers-Edgar many years ago. As part of his spiel he claimed that he had been so successful that he had been able to retire at age 35. He was then in his fifties and was flying up and down the country holding his infamous "investment" seminars in draughty church halls and similar venues. I thought "successful" .....yea right.
But getting back to property.......the most important aspect is Tenant Selection. And for that reason I have left it alone.

Arbitrage
16-12-2010, 10:18 AM
Forget the seminars.
Read books by Bob Jones (his first one), Martin Hawes, and Peter Aranyi and you will get the theory of residential and commercial property investment.
If you want seminars, join the New Zealand Property Investors Association http://www.nzpif.org.nz/ and attend their meetings.

muave
16-12-2010, 10:42 AM
here's something else i'd like some opinions on. does anyone know Olly Newland, and if so, your thoughts?

arcticblue
16-12-2010, 11:14 AM
Olly has articles on www.interest.co.nz every now and again. The comments posted don't reflect too kindly on his opinions but that may just be the people who frequent that site. Probably worthwhile having a read through a few of his articles and some of the responses.

CJ
16-12-2010, 11:21 AM
here's something else i'd like some opinions on. does anyone know Olly Newland, and if so, your thoughts?Olly is a developer that went belly up in the 80's. Predicted the bubble would burst in the early 00's, then claimed because of his book, the bubble didn't bubble so didn't have to burst, but then didn't predict the burst in 2007.

kerian trass has a good book - property clock or something like that. Looks at a number of mirco features that indicate when the market is going up, down or turning.

Propertytalk.co.nz is also a similar forum to this (active and not selling anything) but focussed on property.

skid
31-12-2011, 08:09 AM
yep property talk is a good one for unbiased info[exept for the odd ego getting in the way]
Its worth noting that Tass has apparently gone belly up as well but I dont know all the details.
It doesnt mean his info is not beneficial,but i think the strategy of collecting lots of properties with heaps of debt is a dangerous one ATM. Thats how most of the high flyers have gotten rich and then gone broke.

fungus pudding
31-12-2011, 08:46 AM
I'm continually trying to educate myself in the property market by attending seminars, reading books, audio CD's etc. It seems that half of the things available are either get rich schemes or people talking themselves up to make a living out of it. How hard can it be to find someone who has written a genuine book relaying genuine (and relative to nz) methods, guides & strategies???? :confused:


It's about attitude. 'Jones on property' is the bible, and the only property book I've ever learnt anything from. Property books are a little like horse racing programs. If you knew the winnersl, or the method of picking them, you wouldn't sell at any price. The most important lesson you will ever learn, and Jones preaches it, is to get out of residential property and into commercial at the first opportunity.

skid
01-01-2012, 08:00 AM
Ive known people who have done really well with commercial ,but Boyoboy there are some who are getting a hydeing ATM from commercial properties sitting empty for long periods.
You really have to know your stuff,especially in these times with businesses going down.
For those just starting out with property its pretty high risk. A mentor would be invaluable if you had an experienced friend etc.

Sideshow Bob
04-01-2012, 08:29 PM
The name of Kieran Trass rang a bell.

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/186222/property-guru-protester

fungus pudding
04-01-2012, 08:58 PM
Fact: No one ever got rich buying residential property. And any seminar that is trying to sell you residential property is a scam. You get rich by being (a) a property developer, or (b) buying and leasing commercial property.

Fact: A lot of people get very poor by buying residential property. I heard the other day about a friend of a friend in Queensland who has lost both her investment property and her home, after losing her job as a real estate agent and not being able to make the mortgage payments. Both properties were sold for less than she paid, and she now owes the bank $170k that she will have to pay off for the rest of her life.

Some people have certainly got rich through residential property, although they may be few and far between.

stanace
05-01-2012, 12:08 AM
Some people have certainly got rich through residential property, although they may be few and far between.

Come on guys, I know this is ShareTrader, but property investment is certainly a way if not to get rich, to get comfortable, and retire with cash flow.
Yes many have gone the other way, but there is a difference between greed, and making a quick buck, and looking to the future, and investing wisely, ie buying at a good price, positively geared property, at the beginning of a property cycle.
Right now it is comparitively easy to purchase positively geared property in Central Auckland. Whether it will produce capital gain is moot, but as long as rents keep up with inflation, and mortgage rates remain at reasonable levels, the capital gain should not matter, after all, it is cash flow you need when you retire.

fungus pudding
05-01-2012, 12:35 AM
Come on guys, I know this is ShareTrader, but property investment is certainly a way if not to get rich, to get comfortable, and retire with cash flow.
Yes many have gone the other way, but there is a difference between greed, and making a quick buck, and looking to the future, and investing wisely, ie buying at a good price, positively geared property, at the beginning of a property cycle.
Right now it is comparitively easy to purchase positively geared property in Central Auckland. Whether it will produce capital gain is moot, but as long as rents keep up with inflation, and mortgage rates remain at reasonable levels, the capital gain should not matter, after all, it is cash flow you need when you retire.


I agree 100% the goal should be to build income, yet I know several residential landlords who own large numbers of res. properties, which in itself becomes a job, that you do yourself, maintaining and administering them, or pay someone to do it for you (usually an agent and usually disatrous), yet these investors still need a normal job to provide a living. As a full time prop. investor I dumped residential stuff decades ago. It's good to have a dabble in, but anyone serious about making a living as a prop. investor should find their way into commercial/industrial as soon as possible. I'll stick with my first comment - those who have got rich, or just financially independant, through residential are few and far between. But certainly there are lots who have made some money - or supplemented their income.

voltage
05-01-2012, 10:28 AM
fg, when you talk about commercial/industrial is this thru LPT or direct holding. If direct holding how does one get into this. I have residential properties and understand the advantages of commercial but isn't entry level beyond most unless you have a sizeable deposit?

fungus pudding
05-01-2012, 01:33 PM
fg, when you talk about commercial/industrial is this thru LPT or direct holding. If direct holding how does one get into this. I have residential properties and understand the advantages of commercial but isn't entry level beyond most unless you have a sizeable deposit?

You will almost certainly need a large deposit. Once you have built equity in residential then you will have the option. It takes time, but once started it's much more profitable. Forget REITs until money is no longer important. They have their place in an investment porfolio, but only after you've made your pile nad would rather spend your days on a cruise ship, or whatever you fancy. They offer an initial return which is satisfactory, but the growth just doesn't compare with direct ownership. Remember when starting - it deosn't have to look pretty. A grubby old panelbeaters shop can turn out to be marvellous and will certainly leapfrog you into a good position before reits will. Location is more important to be aware of than looking flash. Good luck.

fungus pudding
05-01-2012, 02:07 PM
The definitition of 'rich" is not having a bit of extra cashflow in retirement after having spent your life working to service the mortgages. "Rich" at the bare minimum is never having to work at all, and more to the point, never having to work at all while spending your summers on your own personal island with a household staff.

And if you just want extra cash flow, why not buy REITs - you would get a far greater return from their dividends as its commercial property (10%+), plus all capital appreciation, and zero management hassles. And only $20 to buy and sell, unlike property.

And if you investigate further, anyone who did make money in residential did it through development not by buying and leasing. Somewhere along the way they added value to the land/property (renovated, changed zoning, changed use, etc) and gained a profit.

I like one of the Rich Dad examples - he bought an old funeral home, for far less than the value of the house and land (because no-one else wanted to buy it and live there so it had been on the market for ages), then he leased it back to the funeral home business at commercial rates (who was happy to continue in business now they had some working capital available to upgrade the place and compete) - and he had something like a 20% return on his investment from day one.

You and I are on a different wavelength altogether. Having established a good income many years back I quit all debt and piled a bit of surplus into a spread of REITs. I kept two good commercial properties, debt free - enough to give me a higher income than I need for the rest of my days. The reits have been useless. An investment of 650k is now worth less than 600. In direct ownership over that time a well selected building would have incresed by at least 50% (to around a million) in value - without any gearing at all. The income is reasonable, giving me an additional 40k per annum which is the equivalent of 60,000. I'm not complaining at all. I'm happy enough with that because it doesn't matter anymore, but I certainly wouldn't compare REITs with direct ownership. They cost a fortune to administer and the unitholders pay the price. There has been no growth in income or therefore in value. They are for the lazy, the timid, or those who have already made it and can't be bothered (e.g. me). They are not for the still ambitous or those who are trying to establish an income.
As far as making money through development - that's highly debatable. some do, but heaps go broke. It's a huge generlisation to state that development is the only way to profit. Mopping up after developers is pretty good though. And as far as Rich dad - poor dad books go; never have I read such trite and childish trash as that stuff. Six months in the real world will teach you more. Finally - the definition of 'rich' is subjective. I prefer to think of becoming financially independant, and for most to attain a level of comfort I suppose an income, purely from passive investments, of between 100 and 200k is about right. But it's a bit of a stretch to call someone in that position 'rich'. Equity of around one and a half million will give that in commercial property - but 1 or 2 million is certainly not rich. I shudder to think of the equity required to make an income of 1 - 200,000 in residential these days, but the returns are much lower, and costs are massive compared with a net commercial lease. And dealing with residential tenants stops being fun after a few short years.

Kees
05-01-2012, 03:36 PM
fg.
I concur with you on this i am exactly in this position and it took long hours hard work and learn to walk before you run.

fungus pudding
05-01-2012, 04:32 PM
Isnt that exactly what I just said?

No. You said rich at the bare minimum is never having to work at all. I said that is financially independant, but certainly not rich - even at the lowest level of rich. The income example I quoted of 100 to 200k ain't rich in anyone's language.

voltage
05-01-2012, 04:41 PM
Residential makes money on capital gain, I am sure over 10 years there is capital gain. Relying on income from residential usually gets gobbled up in maintenance. This is the advantage of commercial, all outgoings paid by tenant. I suppose if one was to look at commercial it is good to find a city with an increasing population. Auckland becomes an obvious choice. Can this be narrowed down further. What is an economical entry level size? Where do you go for advice?? Another way is to buy Ryman because it is a specific type property trust with growth unlike the others like AMP office etc

fungus pudding
05-01-2012, 05:03 PM
Unless you live in Japan. And the USA. And Ireland. And I believe Spain? And chances are Australia might be set to join that group.

....and if Australia, which is highly likely, then New Zealand .......

fungus pudding
05-01-2012, 05:08 PM
Residential makes money on capital gain, I am sure over 10 years there is capital gain. Relying on income from residential usually gets gobbled up in maintenance. This is the advantage of commercial, all outgoings paid by tenant. I suppose if one was to look at commercial it is good to find a city with an increasing population. Auckland becomes an obvious choice. Can this be narrowed down further. What is an economical entry level size? Where do you go for advice?? Another way is to buy Ryman because it is a specific type property trust with growth unlike the others like AMP office etc

Population growth is one thing, but replacement building costs are the real key to rental growth. The right thing in a small rural town can turn out to be pretty lucrative, as long as the place isn't shrinking. Bob Jones favoured Ashburton retail for many years when he was working on his first millions.