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whirly
11-07-2011, 02:56 PM
One stock I hold, PDI has done well in the last few days but now suddenly there are 52 sellers for only 133,000 shares @23. There are 2 sellers for 50,000 shares @22 and only one seller for 5,000 @26./ Any ideas what tactics are being used here or what it might mean?

cheers

BIRMANBOY
11-07-2011, 03:24 PM
OMG....are you serious? Even if you did know.... what could you do about controlling their actions. IMHO trying to figure out what is behind the situation is a recipe for sleepless nights and being held hostage to rumours and speculation. Why dont you make your decisions based on what you do know not what you dont know. This just feeds into a psychology ready for panic runs where you see people following the crowd for no good reason than "well everybody else is so I better as well" . ps not trying to disparage your inquisitive nature but keep it in perspective.
One stock I hold, PDI has done well in the last few days but now suddenly there are 52 sellers for only 133,000 shares @23. There are 2 sellers for 50,000 shares @22 and only one seller for 5,000 @26./ Any ideas what tactics are being used here or what it might mean?

cheers

whirly
11-07-2011, 03:54 PM
Sorry Birmanboy. I somehow mistook this for a forum in which to discuss sharetrading. Way to go if I was a newbie as the Forum Title suggests I'd certainly find your response disparaging. Seeing as I'm not Ill just assume you have no idea. For those of an equally inquisitive nature I simply found the depth interesting that's all.

W

BIRMANBOY
11-07-2011, 03:56 PM
Trying to save you some sleepless nights..thats all. No offense intended.
Sorry Birmanboy. I somehow mistook this for a forum in which to discuss sharetrading. Way to go if I was a newbie as the Forum Title suggests I'd certainly find your response disparaging. Seeing as I'm not Ill just assume you have no idea. For those of an equally inquisitive nature I simply found the depth interesting that's all.

W

whirly
11-07-2011, 04:42 PM
Ok. Thanks. No sleepless nights here though.

OldRider
11-07-2011, 05:56 PM
I have no inside knowlege of what happens in share market trading, however, it seems apparent to me that some traders use automated computerised trading systems, and pay brokerage on a different scale to you and me, so can do what seems odd to us

Just recently I had my first taste of this, with a buy order being slowly filled regularly every 5 minutes mostly one share at a time, sometimes two or three,
thankfully the broker now summarises contract notes into one daily page, though was a bit of a nuisance wading through all the E-mails and checking.
Thankfully I was rescued by one or two others selling me normal quantities, so I don't know how long it went on for.That a lot of tiny transactions go on
all the time is easy to find out, just look at the transaction list on Stockness Monster and it won't take long to find an example

I find depth slightly useful but not in any way a reliable guide, for myself I don't often list all I want to buy or sell at once, and I am only a tiny tiddler in the market, so I think for certain there are ways of doing things by the big boys that I haven't dreamed of.

OldRider
11-07-2011, 06:57 PM
A further thought came to me, in times not too far in the past there existed minimum transaction amounts. I think it was around $500.00, and for
amounts smaller than this the transaction was passed from one's own broker through a small lot broker who organized all the small parcels of a
particular company into marketable parcels and charged a higher fee to do this.

Today, I notice company annual reports still list the number of holders with an "unmarketable parcel", but in practice one seems able to sell even one share through any broker , no different to any other transaction. Are unmarketable parcels just an oddity from the past?

percy
11-07-2011, 07:37 PM
I find depth slightly useful but not in any way a reliable guide, for myself I don't often list all I want to buy or sell at once, and I am only a tiny tiddler in the market, so I think for certain there are ways of doing things by the big boys that I haven't dreamed of.

Some times depth is honest,most/some times not.

Jay
11-07-2011, 07:42 PM
Today, I notice company annual reports still list the number of holders with an "unmarketable parcel", but in practice one seems able to sell even one share through any broker , no different to any other transaction. Are unmarketable parcels just an oddity from the past?

There is still a minimum buy/sell quantity dpendiong on the price of the share for the likes of you and me, Oldrider, therefore I have concluded thst it must be a institution or a broker buying/selling these parcels

trackers
12-07-2011, 05:50 AM
A broker I use, Interactive Brokers, allows you to place various algorithmic orders which accumulate or distribute shares over a period of time. Never used it myself, but its a good way in theory to drip feed sell or buy without moving the market.

OldRider
12-07-2011, 06:33 AM
Jay: I understand there to be no minimum even for you or me. I am in the process of simplifying our investment
structure and recently wound up a company in which speculative mining shares had been held.

Holdings included the remnants of several companies of little value, rather less than a marketable parcel,
on checking with broker I was advised to enter for sale as normal, I did so, and a sale was made quickly without a problem,
for just a hundred or two dollars.

whirly
12-07-2011, 10:27 AM
Well they're all gone this morning. One seller @22 and one @26. I appreciate that you must not rely on the buy/sell depth as it only tells part of the story and I have seen bots at work buying or selling very small parcels. Maybe it is as OldRider suggests and its a broker making up marketable parcels. I have been watching PDI for a while and these parcels have never shown up before.

Trackers - that's interesting about Interactive Brokers and I might have a nosey at that, cheers.

Jay
12-07-2011, 12:21 PM
Jay: I understand there to be no minimum even for you or me. I am in the process of simplifying our investment
structure and recently wound up a company in which speculative mining shares had been held.

Holdings included the remnants of several companies of little value, rather less than a marketable parcel,
on checking with broker I was advised to enter for sale as normal, I did so, and a sale was made quickly without a problem,
for just a hundred or two dollars.

Thanks for that, is this the same for both NZX and ASX?

Voltaire
12-07-2011, 01:51 PM
A broker I use, Interactive Brokers, allows you to place various algorithmic orders which accumulate or distribute shares over a period of time. Never used it myself, but its a good way in theory to drip feed sell or buy without moving the market.

Interesting - I take it you only pay the one standard brokerage or do they charge you a lesser amount on each small parcel? Thanks

OldRider
12-07-2011, 02:25 PM
Jay:
My sales were ASX listed stocks don't know abour NZX

Jay
12-07-2011, 03:22 PM
Maybe it is minimum holdings not trades,
For example on the ASX you have buy at least $500 worth I think, if you do not have this many already or a minimum number to buy at different price levels ON the NZX again unless you already hold or it will take you over the minimums.

Blendy
01-08-2011, 08:33 AM
i have another question about seller & buyer depth.

Often at the beginning and the end of the day, the prices for scheduled buys and sells is unbalanced, eg the buying price might be $1.30 but the selling price might be $1.25.

How is the price determined? Is it based on who lodged the trade first, or the lowest price or something?

I've had the odd sale where I've received a higher price than I had set (which of course is very nice!) and I'm wondering how that happens.

I can see the advantage for making the buy price higher before the market opens, as it seems that if you offer to buy at a ridiculous price, you get the first trade at the top seller's price which is usually much less. But is there a risk that someone else might see that you've decided to offer $1.50 for a share going for $1.25, and then sell theirs at the market rate and clinch the awesome price? Or is there too much split second timing involved? Are market price trades done with more priority to listed price trades, or the other way around?

I'm just curious about the order of sales.

JBmurc
01-08-2011, 09:43 AM
i have another question about seller & buyer depth.

Often at the beginning and the end of the day, the prices for scheduled buys and sells is unbalanced, eg the buying price might be $1.30 but the selling price might be $1.25.

How is the price determined? Is it based on who lodged the trade first, or the lowest price or something?

I've had the odd sale where I've received a higher price than I had set (which of course is very nice!) and I'm wondering how that happens.

I can see the advantage for making the buy price higher before the market opens, as it seems that if you offer to buy at a ridiculous price, you get the first trade at the top seller's price which is usually much less. But is there a risk that someone else might see that you've decided to offer $1.50 for a share going for $1.25, and then sell theirs at the market rate and clinch the awesome price? Or is there too much split second timing involved? Are market price trades done with more priority to listed price trades, or the other way around?

I'm just curious about the order of sales.

My understanding is an average is weighted to give the open price i.e last trade was 50c but like many companies just before open will have bids 52c an offers 49c depending on the volume of the bids to offers will give the open price many times some good or bad news will come outside trading hours so you could see seller or bidders trying to jump in front of each other bids 54c 57c 58c etc the highest will be the first too trade to the lowest offers at the weighted average ..which could well be lower than last trade if the offers sell price an volume out weighs the bid volume

Lizard
01-08-2011, 06:26 PM
That doesn't read correctly, A-A. The orders at open (and at close) are driven by price and volume. Need to look at less liquid stocks on open to see it, as the more liquid ones will get all sorts of orders placed in the micro-seconds prior to open which are unreadable to us mere mortals. However, the general principle is that the orders on the open will be matched based on the price at which buyers run out of sellers or vice-versa. Putting in a small buy-order at the top of the queue can be quite handy if you just want to get the opening price - same rules apply after a price-sensitive announcement or trading halt.

If you're in any doubt, try reading this:
http://www.asx.com.au/products/calculate-open-close-prices.htm

Okay, if you haven't got a degree in cryptology, maybe just try watching a few less liquid shares on open and it will click....

Also, worth knowing that the open is staged on the ASX based on alphabetical order. Those who really want to gazump the queue use an IRESS connection, so (as far as I know) it's not worth even attempting it through an NZ on-line broker. Though I have called in favours with the dinosaur phone broker method when I reealllllyyy wanted to get out on the open!

Lizard
01-08-2011, 06:49 PM
Highest bid doesn't get lowest seller - it gets the price at which the lowest of the bids matches the highest of the offers on a volume basis... except that is going to be hard to really explain without a depth series example...

Sorry AA - don't mean to be picky and argumentative - you and I both understand what we are talking about and it is just as likely my explanation that is poor!