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Xerof
05-06-2014, 07:39 PM
Goodness, even Roy Morgan appears to have changed camp

gee, very hard to find this poll result, and commentary anywhere in the MSM, so here it is in part.


“Today’s New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll shows a strong positive response to the predicted Budget Surplus of $372 million handed down by Finance Minister Bill English with National surging to 52.5% (up 7%) – it’s highest since the last New Zealand Election. National has surged to a huge lead over a potential Labour/ Greens alliance (38%, down 6%).


“The closer the election, it appears the less support there is for the main opposition parties with support for Labour (29%, down 1.5%) now stuck below the level that prompted the resignation of previous leader David Shearer for most of 2014. The initial surge provided by David Cunliffe has well and truly worn off. In addition the Greens (9%, down 4.5%) have slumped to their lowest level of support since before the last New Zealand election after announcing last weekend a proposal to introduce a Carbon Tax in New Zealand in place of the current Emissions Trading Scheme.


“Last week’s merger announcement of the Internet Party (0.5%) and Mana Party (0.5%) to contest this year’s election offers both parties a better chance of attaining the 5% threshold required to elect a slate of Party List MPs. However, the combined support for the two parties has never exceeded 2%, and it would appear unlikely the merged party can bridge this gap in the next few months.”

Sgt Pepper
05-06-2014, 11:44 PM
That poll result suggests that the gyrations of the gypsy left have not impressed the voters people are moving away from the probable debacle that would be created with a Labour leader with hands up his back working his brain from KDC, LH, the Greens and Uncle Tom Cobley and All.

Craic
to be honest there is school of thought that the next government may not be blessed with the most benevolent of times, to quote Hosea " he who sews the wind will reap the whirlwind"

In this case the next government will inevitably reap the whirlwind of massive defaults in the Auclkland Housing market with 10% mortgages looming menacingly on the horizon. Add to that a sustained collapse in Dairy prices, and a sharp downturn in China the fallout, both economic and political will be severe

elZorro
06-06-2014, 06:23 AM
In that case, St Pepper, best to bring in some good managers of the public purse, some that are capable of bringing out the best in NZ.

John Key picking what he shows up to..


6/6/2014 — Economics, Politics and Government
John Key emulates Muldoon?
By Dene Mackenzie
New Zealand First Leader Winston Peters is taking Prime Minister John Key to task for apparently pulling out of a planned television debate.
This could be a bit of history repeating itself as former National prime minister the late Sir Robert Muldoon issued instructions to his MPs in the 1970s, which included Winston Peters as fate would have it, to not turn up to joint meet the candidates’ evenings.
Sir Robert correctly surmised his MPs were drawcards for the protest element so rife in his time as a polarising leader of the government. Without the National MPs, there was not much point in holding the meet the candidate evenings in the National-held seats.
Instead, National held its own meetings in school halls, shearing sheds and draughty rural community halls, attended mainly by true blue supporters with the occasional protester who got shut down quickly.
Peters said the planned TV3 debate would have included himself plus representatives from the Labour and Green parties.
“Typical John Key - the chance of a fair, robust debate about the future of the country and he runs a hundred miles. The people of New Zealand are entitled to see how Mr Key performs under pressure. Well, they've seen how he performs. He does a runner,” Peters said.
Being no fool, but sometimes being mistaken for one by the Opposition, John Key will be well aware his presence on a televised debate would give credibility to Peters and the other party representatives.
Rather than indulge the Opposition in a shouting match, Key is wise to leave the debates until the election proper when he will come up against only Labour leader David Cunliffe. No contest.
*Dene Mackenzie is the political editor of the Otago Daily Times.




Perfectly fair, says Dene Mackenzie. If John Key was proud of his record over the last few years, there would be no problem with him turning up. Just lately, the Stockton mine is back in the news with more job losses in the offing, and Postie Plus demonstrates just how tough the retail sector has become. These are all symptoms of a much bigger malaise.

BlackPeter
06-06-2014, 07:47 AM
WTF? ... "only been found guilty"? Surely that's the crux of the matter? He's broken the law. And so is found guilty! He's a felon. He's a corrupt politician! ...

The fact that the Judge will probably slap him with a wet bus ticket when he is convicted is about how much pressure Key & Co. can exert. For the moment the man is guilty as charged of a serious breach of the public trust!

Have to agree. Might be time time they find a new title for MP's. "Your Honorable" just reminds too much at a similar sounding (and spelled) attribute, which not all of them seem to share.

Harvey Specter
06-06-2014, 08:32 AM
If John Key was proud of his record over the last few years, there would be no problem with him turning up. Why would you turn up to a 'debate' where it is 3 against 1?

Why is Peters even invited to a 'major parties' political debate?

If he pulled out of a debate against Labour, that would be a different story.

I think there should be a debate between Cunliffe, Norman and Peters. The winner earns the right to debate against a party that is polling above 50%! Alternatively, they should have to decide, as they would if they tried to form a government, which one of them gets to debate with Key on each issue, the others having to leave the stage (and shut up). eg. Greens debate the environment, Winston takes his specialty Immigration, horse racing and bribery, and Labour take the rest.

Cuzzie
06-06-2014, 08:35 AM
WTF? ... "only been found guilty"? Surely that's the crux of the matter? He's broken the law. And so is found guilty! He's a felon. He's a corrupt politician! ...

The fact that the Judge will probably slap him with a wet bus ticket when he is convicted is about how much pressure Key & Co. can exert. For the moment the man is guilty as charged of a serious breach of the public trust! That been said, you must also have a big problem with Cunliffe open to doing deals with convicted criminal Dot.Com. He's a felon who has spent time behind bars in two countries(soon to be three) and is corrupt as a fat man can be.
Cunliffe needs the Fatman (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11267738) How say you belg. BTW, with the latest poll 71% of voters would not vote Labour, "71%"!!! Cunliffe needs numbers and he needs convicted criminal Dot.Com.
In the latest Roy Morgan Poll more than one in every two people would vote National, "52%"!!!

Key doesn't need Banks and that is it in a crunch right there.

craic
06-06-2014, 08:36 AM
The demise of Banks for this particular crime is of little significance in the scheme of things. He has had a long career and like most politicians, has swept more than his share of dust under the carpet in his time. I imagine that he will retire and like a bunch of earlier defaulters, mostly from the left, will be forgotten in the September race. And don't forget - he can and may appeal. Has Cunliffe borrowed Keys bach in Hawaii for a couple of months or has he just gone in for an oil chang and grease? haven't heard from him in a while.

Cuzzie
06-06-2014, 08:37 AM
Why would you turn up to a 'debate' where it is 3 against 1?

Why is Peters even invited to a 'major parties' political debate?

If he pulled out of a debate against Labour, that would be a different story.

I think there should be a debate between Cunliffe, Norman and Peters. The winner earns the right to debate against a party that is polling above 50%! Alternatively, they should have to decide, as they would if they tried to form a government, which one of them gets to debate with Key on each issue, the others having to leave the stage (and shut up). eg. Greens debate the environment, Winston takes his specialty Immigration, horse racing and bribery, and Labour take the rest.I like that idea. The more Norman speaks, the more his numbers go down too. Win, win, win.

Cuzzie
06-06-2014, 08:45 AM
The demise of Banks for this particular crime is of little significance in the scheme of things. He has had a long career and like most politicians, has swept more than his share of dust under the carpet in his time. I imagine that he will retire and like a bunch of earlier defaulters, mostly from the left, will be forgotten in the September race. And don't forget - he can and may appeal. Has Cunliffe borrowed Keys bach in Hawaii for a couple of months or has he just gone in for an oil chang and grease? haven't heard from him in a while. Because the more Cunliffe talks, the more the left desert him too. Another winner. Look, he is a lost cause, those who put him in charge must be furious about how he has gone.

Sgt Pepper
06-06-2014, 08:57 AM
Why would you turn up to a 'debate' where it is 3 against 1?

Why is Peters even invited to a 'major parties' political debate?

If he pulled out of a debate against Labour, that would be a different story.

I think there should be a debate between Cunliffe, Norman and Peters. The winner earns the right to debate against a party that is polling above 50%! Alternatively, they should have to decide, as they would if they tried to form a government, which one of them gets to debate with Key on each issue, the others having to leave the stage (and shut up). eg. Greens debate the environment, Winston takes his specialty Immigration, horse racing and bribery, and Labour take the rest.

morning HS
As I alluded to earlier with whats going to happen to the economy in the next 2-3 years there will probably be a collective sigh of relief from the left that they didn't attain power in September 2014. John Key will be tested to the extreme especially with collapsing dairy prices, defaulting Auckland Home owners in negative equity, etc. Hard decisions will have to be made, i.e. politically unpopular ones, John Keys famed pragmatic approach ,which has served him so well will have to be abandoned. I don't envy his task.

Jay
06-06-2014, 09:06 AM
OK got you point the first time Belg

I see you have now deleted the other duplicates - good on you!:)

craic
06-06-2014, 09:08 AM
The Facts. Banks has the right to appeal BUT this matter has not been decided because a sentence must be impose BEFORE an appeal can be lodged. Therefore John Key and everyone else must wait for that date and if an appeal is lodge it is likely that any sentence will be suspended until the appeal is decided So belgarion, you can't hang the man just yet - that is the law and if you think that this is the end for Key and Co, I have another grand that says you are wrong. Now I must go and pick the horses for the betting adjunct for tomorrow because I picked winners last saturday and thems the rules

Harvey Specter
06-06-2014, 09:49 AM
He broke the law! Why is he still an MP? ACT is a separate party to National so Key has no control over the situation. He will be removed from parliament when/if he receives a conviction as stipulated by law.


morning HS
As I alluded to earlier with whats going to happen to the economy in the next 2-3 years there will probably be a collective sigh of relief from the left that they didn't attain power in September 2014. John Key will be tested to the extreme especially with collapsing dairy prices, defaulting Auckland Home owners in negative equity, etc. Hard decisions will have to be made, i.e. politically unpopular ones, John Keys famed pragmatic approach ,which has served him so well will have to be abandoned. I don't envy his task.A fourth term is very rare, so you would expect this to be Nationals last term anyway(?). But as you say, the Left might actually be happy to lose this one, as the posibility of a one term left government is a possibility if the economy has issues and the coalition of Marxists cant agree.

Cuzzie
06-06-2014, 09:54 AM
belg, the Act Party is the Act Party not the National Party. After John Boscawen got overlooked, I couldn't give a monkeys about them. Speculation about Banks having something on Key and other MPs is just that, 'speculation' until the speculation is a proven fact.

S.P, surely we are better to head into the next 2 or 3 three years with a Govt. with a proven track record for Governing in tough economic times like National has. They overcome a major Financial crisis and disasters and have now got the country humming again. Don't panic S.P, you are in good hands with the experts, 'National', afterall what experience has a Cunliffe lead mob got at facing matters like this?

fungus pudding
06-06-2014, 10:49 AM
Prime Minister John Key and his Government could pretend all they liked that it was business as usual yesterday after the High Court delivered its verdict. It is anything but.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10125339/John-Banks-is-clinging-to-the-wreckage

He broke the law! Why is he still an MP?

Simple! John Key is a morally corrupt leader.

National supporters should be screaming for Key to show some moral fibre and do what is right!

Key can't chuck MPs out of parliament any more than you can.

fungus pudding
06-06-2014, 10:53 AM
Wrong! ... It's of huge significance. If Key, or the Act party, lets this felon remain then they'll be seen as being as guilty as Banks! Does Banks have something on Key and other MPs? Is that why he hasn't resigned forthwith?



He doesn't need to do anything. National is now seen as seriously untrustworthy.



Key knew Banks had broken the law. Kiwi's don't like money controlling election outcomes ... This is not America or a corrupt Banana Republic ... yet :(


Go and find a grammar book and read the chapter on apostrophes. You might be able to make your posts understandable.,

fungus pudding
06-06-2014, 11:47 AM
LOL ... You always know when someone can't think up a good counter argument ... They turn into the grammar police ... :)

It should tell you someone chose to ignore what was written because they couldn't be bothered deciphering the message.

Sgt Pepper
06-06-2014, 11:58 AM
John Keys to do list

1. Win a 3rd term( Sept 2014)
2. Get a knighthood (January 1st 2018)
3. Get a diplomatic posting ( February 2018)
4. Work out a way to blame the 2016 housing crash on Labour
4. Retire to Hawaii with commutes to London (2021 approx.)
5 Remember the above items and don't give a monkeys about anything else

craic
06-06-2014, 12:40 PM
Key knew Banks had broken the law. Kiwi's don't like money controlling election outcomes ... This is not America or a corrupt Banana Republic ... yet :([/QUOTE]

Now why is Cunliffe, Mana and most of the left so cuddled up in bed with the proprieter of Magaporn if its not for his money? Do they see him as a fine example of a citizen? I don't know what you are on Belgarion but it is producing some bizarre results I still have the grand, the second one, on the table and I have picked the horses for Saturday. Meeting 4 Race 3 Rockafilly - Race 5 Rapt in gold - race 6 Goodoneglady Race 8 Ballroom.

blackcap
06-06-2014, 12:42 PM
Message is:


4. My suspicion is that what Banks did was common practice ... So common that the National Party is terrified and are now making truly bazar statements along the lines of "move along folks, nothing to see here". ... Yeah Right!

Clear enough Fungus?

Its likely common practice across the board (including Labour and National and other parties) and that is why everyone should stop being so hypocritically sanctimonious and just move on.

Jay
06-06-2014, 03:03 PM
Bet they will be all careful with the "funding" they receive for the coming election

Harvey Specter
06-06-2014, 03:16 PM
Its likely common practice across the board (including Labour and National and other parties) and that is why everyone should stop being so hypocritically sanctimonious and just move on.Electoral fraud has been happening for years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_New_Zealand_election_funding_controversy

Sgt Pepper
07-06-2014, 01:01 PM
I was reading today I-Predict has NZ First holding the balance of power and will decide who holds power at the next election. Bit of a contrast to Roy Morgan Poll BUT I Predict historically has forecast the election remarkably accurately.

fungus pudding
07-06-2014, 01:06 PM
I was reading today I-Predict has NZ First holding the balance of power and will decide who holds power at the next election.

That's exactly what will happen. A few baubles in Winston's direction including promise of knighthood and bingo - there's the next govt, National and Winston First.

Sgt Pepper
07-06-2014, 01:22 PM
That's exactly what will happen. A few baubles in Winston's direction including promise of knighthood and bingo - there's the next govt, National and Winston First.o Winston

Ha, could well be right FP, as Napoleon observed regarding the allure of the "baubles of power". Keep an eye out for John Key being polite and respectful to Winston, good sign or bad depending on your political point of view
Cheers Im off to work now

craic
07-06-2014, 02:17 PM
What? and steal David cunliffes thunder?

fungus pudding
07-06-2014, 02:23 PM
Rumour has it Banks will resign ... What a shame ... I do hope this rumour is wrong ... :)

Yeah - me too.

westerly
07-06-2014, 04:45 PM
Key knew Banks had broken the law. Kiwi's don't like money controlling election outcomes ... This is not America or a corrupt Banana Republic ... yet :(

Now why is Cunliffe, Mana and most of the left so cuddled up in bed with the proprieter of Magaporn if its not for his money? Do they see him as a fine example of a citizen? I don't know what you are on Belgarion but it is producing some bizarre results I still have the grand, the second one, on the table and I have picked the horses for Saturday. Meeting 4 Race 3 Rockafilly - Race 5 Rapt in gold - race 6 Goodoneglady Race 8 Ballroom.[/QUOTE]

Just as well you had a couple of scratchings. Trentham in winter - punters graveyard

westerly

craic
07-06-2014, 07:19 PM
Just an old mans gamble - and a bit of fun. A trade on TEL onWed.-Fri. gathered $593 for the coffers. A raffle win of beef olives ( very little meat and a heap of stuffing) went wrong when the prize was given to someone else and we had to settle for Scotch fillet, a prize that someone else had failed to claim. I got $30 back from a $60 bet. The other punter, whose horses all ran, got $11.50. Tuesday We will be in Queensland why? Because thats what old folk do.

slimwin
07-06-2014, 10:55 PM
I'm guessing gardening doesn't carry enough risk to be your retirement hooby Craic? :)

iceman
08-06-2014, 08:15 AM
Calling it for what the Internet Mana Party really is

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/opinion-mana-and-internet-party-unholy-alliance-insult-all-nz-ict-workers-dc-157308

Harvey Specter
08-06-2014, 11:34 AM
So, are these people saying that NZ politicians are flouting the law frequently? Sure sounds like it.

The problem is it is a knowledge offence so they all claim they don't know as they never looked. Banks has been found guilt due to wilful blindness.

The law should be changed so there are no anonymous donations, a fill list being required. The only knowledge issue therefore becomes associated parties.

fungus pudding
08-06-2014, 12:18 PM
The problem is it is a knowledge offence so they all claim they don't know as they never looked. Banks has been found guilt due to wilful blindness.

The law should be changed so there are no anonymous donations, a fill list being required. The only knowledge issue therefore becomes associated parties.


What then would become of funds given anonymously? They wouldn't know who to return them to.

Xerof
08-06-2014, 01:31 PM
Yawn, getting very shrill about rules that applied to a local Mayoral election a while ago now.

Get up to speed with what happens with current donations at the national level - the rules have changed twice since Banks was taken to task for doing what everyone had been doing for years. That fat, white, rich prick, who the left seem to love had it in for him. Anyway, for sure, he will do the right thing for the country, his party, his electorate, (but not himself), and resign tomorrow one would think.

Still no word from MSM on Labour's favoured political poll, the Roy Morgan, which is calling a landslide victory to the Nats. Not a word either on The Nation, or Q&A, yet the last 'rogue' poll from RM was front page news when it showed a glimmer of hope for Greenbour. Too funny....

Any word from Kunteclive yet on who his secret donors are?

fungus pudding
08-06-2014, 02:15 PM
Yawn, getting very shrill about rules that applied to a local Mayoral election a while ago now.

Get up to speed with what happens with current donations at the national level - the rules have changed twice since Banks was taken to task for doing what everyone had been doing for years. That fat, white, rich prick, who the left seem to love had it in for him. Anyway, for sure, he will do the right thing for the country, his party, his electorate, (but not himself), and resign tomorrow one would think.

Still no word from MSM on Labour's favoured political poll, the Roy Morgan, which is calling a landslide victory to the Nats. Not a word either on The Nation, or Q&A, yet the last 'rogue' poll from RM was front page news when it showed a glimmer of hope for Greenbour. Too funny....

Any word from Kunteclive yet on who his secret donors are?

Had to be Dotcom - dinnit?

craic
08-06-2014, 04:13 PM
I look forward to a day or so after the election when John Key, the Prime Minister, looks the fat boy straight in the eye and utters that iconic Kiwi expression "Goodbye Pork Pie"

craic
09-06-2014, 08:43 AM
Why would Key want money from Dotcom He gives money away to charities now, has a batch in Hawaii and is probably the most up-front politician we have seen for ages? As to Banks lying - show me the politician in Labour who claims that he has never lied and I will show you a liar.
Or maybe the reverse ... Dotcom, who is no slouch when it comes to getting access to digital information, reveals all the illegal "anonymous" contributions made to Key & Co. Surely you don't believe that Banks was the only one?

Xerof
09-06-2014, 09:19 AM
That Andrew Little will go a long way. He's obviously a bright young thing.
He's seeking an inquiry into why the police didn't prosecute Banks. He clearly forgot most of the other 50 odd cases forwarded to Police by the Electoral Commission for prosecution relate to his own party. Good one Andrew, so you'd like to limit the inquiry to a single case? Lol, hows the shotgun wound in the foot?

Sgt Pepper
09-06-2014, 11:32 AM
Why would Key want money from Dotcom He gives money away to charities now, has a batch in Hawaii and is probably the most up-front politician we have seen for ages? As to Banks lying - show me the politician in Labour who claims that he has never lied and I will show you a liar.

Craic
John Key ...upfront politician???? I spilt my cup of tea I was laughing so much, this is the man who when confronted,( or should I say found out), about the Tranz Rail share "issue" forgot he had a substantial shareholding. John Key upfront Yeah..Right. Got to make another cup of tea now
cheers
SP

Sgt Pepper
09-06-2014, 11:34 AM
Totally agree Belg

Harvey Specter
09-06-2014, 11:35 AM
Craic
John Key ...upfront politician???? I spilt my cup of tea I was laughing so much, this is the man who when confronted,( or should I say found out), about the Tranz Rail share "issue" forgot he had a substantial shareholding. John Key upfront Yeah..Right. Got to make another cup of tea now
cheers
SPppfffftt. Substantial shareholdering. wasn't it only $20k worth? The guys worth $20m

craic
09-06-2014, 11:59 AM
Had, all sorts of problems getting into Computershare over the past couple of weeks to sort out the rats and mice in a couple of portfolios, mine and one I manage, mainly because I changed passwords through the bottom of a rum bottle. Finally got in and was surprised to find that I had sold the stuff and cleaned up the stuff weeks ago. If JK forgot about a few shares in a multi-million dollar portfolio, I'm not surprised. I'm sure that, like most of us, he was concentrating on the main parts. I look forward to the main event where the main sound will be the sound of Labour jaws dropping on the ground, followed by the sound of Cunliffes train leaving the station. My birthday on Oct. 4 will be a memorable event.

Sgt Pepper
09-06-2014, 12:10 PM
No HS
The registry revealed he apparently purchased 100,000 shares

Cuzzie
09-06-2014, 08:26 PM
Humour ... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11269960Fats has had is win in court, now it is time for him to be put under the spotlight. We aren't talking Dot.Cons $50,000 bribery money here, we are talking millions he ripped off from Warner Music, UMG Recordings, Sony Music, Capitol Records, 20th Century Fox, Disney, Paramount, Universal, Columbia Pictures and Warner Brothers. These Mega Companies are not best pleased with Kim and they will get their pound of flesh. Make that pounds - Mega Pounds. We are talking a real criminal. A real criminal who has spent time behind bars already and is about to do more - lots more. Banks will have the last laugh. Mark my words though, the loonie left will completely turn their backs on him when he's no use to them anymore, such is the nature of that beast.
belg, this is what I call humour - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11270566 What will the left do without his illegal fortune? A sugar daddy without doe will be left out to dry. The best thing about it is he will be in a U.S prison. That will save Taxpayers plenty by not having to feed him. Win, win, win.

elZorro
09-06-2014, 08:33 PM
It has been a good week for the left, let's admit it. I just found an old article from Brian Edwards online, I'm sure there are other pithy words that can be scrawled on campaign hoardings. It'll be a close election.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/confessions-sentimental-socialist-and-unkind-thoughts-paula-bennett-ck-142943

Cuzzie
09-06-2014, 08:37 PM
It has been a good week for the left, let's admit it. I just found an old article from Brian Edwards online, I'm sure there are other pithy words that can be scrawled on campaign hoardings. It'll be a close election.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/confessions-sentimental-socialist-and-unkind-thoughts-paula-bennett-ck-142943
Yep a good week for Labour EZ, including their latest:
Another great Labour policy falls flat on their faces - again.
Dear oh dear, Funnycliffe is at it again. Does he actually dream up these policies or is he just totally clueless? Who advises him and are his advisers from the right side of politics and are having a laugh at poor Davids expense? Does he run his ideas past somebody in the know first or does he just hopes for the best?
Cunliffe, you simple just have not got a clue - have you.

Here's his latest - Insurance Council rejects Labour's 'Earthquake Court' (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11270620)

Cuzzie
09-06-2014, 08:41 PM
It took four years for the Banks trial, let us add four years for the poor Christchurch folk too. Yep, that's a winner. Good on you Dave, keep talking because at this rate John Key doesn't have to say a thing does he!!!

Cuzzie
09-06-2014, 08:49 PM
Here is more bribery money from Fats, this time not just pennies he paid Banks. This time it is $5 million smackeroos.
$5 million for information that proves unlawful or corrupt conduct by the US government, the New Zealand government, spy agencies, law enforcement and Hollywood.
Five million means he is a very desperate man, he's feeling the noose tighten a bit more every day. So he should too.
The link is: (http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/dotcom-offers-us5m-bounty-whistleblower-info-could-help-his-case-ck-157391)Dotcom offers $US5m bounty for whistleblower info that could help his case. (http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/dotcom-offers-us5m-bounty-whistleblower-info-could-help-his-case-ck-157391)Thanks EZ, your link lead me to this one, cheers mate.

iceman
10-06-2014, 07:37 AM
So former Federated Farmer's boss Don Nicolson is standing for ACT in Clutha Southland. Key says no deals will be offered and Don himself says he will put more focus on the party vote.
But I would not be surprised if the voters of Clutha Southland, 90% whom are National supporters and desperately wanting a 3rd term, will consider strategic voting. Wouldn't be too hard for them to tick the box for a fellow farmer and well known local identity, competing against the young fellow standing for National.
This could give ACT 2 constituency MPs !!!

elZorro
10-06-2014, 07:46 AM
So former Federated Farmer's boss Don Nicolson is standing for ACT in Clutha Southland. Key says no deals will be offered and Don himself says he will put more focus on the party vote.
But I would not be surprised if the voters of Clutha Southland, 90% whom are National supporters and desperately wanting a 3rd term, will consider strategic voting. Wouldn't be too hard for them to tick the box for a fellow farmer and well known local identity, competing against the young fellow standing for National.
This could give ACT 2 constituency MPs !!!

Maybe Iceman, but already John Banks' removal has scuppered some National policies from being furthered.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/act-leader-banks-verdict-we-must-accept-courts-decision-ck-157292

Harvey Specter
10-06-2014, 08:37 AM
So former Federated Farmer's boss Don Nicolson is standing for ACT in Clutha Southland. Key says no deals will be offered and Don himself says he will put more focus on the party vote.
But I would not be surprised if the voters of Clutha Southland, 90% whom are National supporters and desperately wanting a 3rd term, will consider strategic voting. Wouldn't be too hard for them to tick the box for a fellow farmer and well known local identity, competing against the young fellow standing for National.
This could give ACT 2 constituency MPs !!!Sounds like a good plan but would mean that they would have little chance of getting in Jamie Whyte, the Party President.

Or will National take back Epsom but hand over Southland?

fungus pudding
10-06-2014, 08:43 AM
Sounds like a good plan but would mean that they would have little chance of getting in Jamie Whyte, the Party President.

Or will National take back Epsom but hand over Southland?

Why would they do that? They'd be far better off with 2 electorate ACT MPs.

Cuzzie
10-06-2014, 08:54 AM
So former Federated Farmer's boss Don Nicolson is standing for ACT in Clutha Southland. Key says no deals will be offered and Don himself says he will put more focus on the party vote.
But I would not be surprised if the voters of Clutha Southland, 90% whom are National supporters and desperately wanting a 3rd term, will consider strategic voting. Wouldn't be too hard for them to tick the box for a fellow farmer and well known local identity, competing against the young fellow standing for National.
This could give ACT 2 constituency MPs !!!
On the back of this good news too. Primary sector exports at record levels (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/agribusiness/10137279/Primary-sector-exports-at-record-levels)
NZ is really humming right now, that's for sure. Don Nicolson could do well down there, interesting!!!

fungus pudding
10-06-2014, 09:05 AM
On the back of this good news too. Primary sector exports at record levels (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/agribusiness/10137279/Primary-sector-exports-at-record-levels)
NZ is really humming right now, that's for sure. Don Nicolson could do well down there, interesting!!!


Good bloke and to the best of my knowledge has never worked for a cigarette company.:D

BlackPeter
10-06-2014, 09:46 AM
Here is more bribery money from Fats, this time not just pennies he paid Banks. This time it is $5 million smackeroos.
$5 million for information that proves unlawful or corrupt conduct by the US government, the New Zealand government, spy agencies, law enforcement and Hollywood.
Five million means he is a very desperate man, he's feeling the noose tighten a bit more every day. So he should too.
The link is: (http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/dotcom-offers-us5m-bounty-whistleblower-info-could-help-his-case-ck-157391)Dotcom offers $US5m bounty for whistleblower info that could help his case. (http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/dotcom-offers-us5m-bounty-whistleblower-info-could-help-his-case-ck-157391)Thanks EZ, your link lead me to this one, cheers mate.

Hey Cuzzie - why not just lynch him? You seem to be the right man to do the job!

Seriously - why are you so full of hate? Or are you just full of fear he could uncover still more embarrassing actions of NZ authorities and / or government?

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Sgt Pepper
10-06-2014, 10:34 AM
Good bloke and to the best of my knowledge has never worked for a cigarette company.:D

At least Don will show up in his electorate, Bill English rarely does

Cuzzie
10-06-2014, 12:19 PM
Hey Cuzzie - why not just lynch him? You seem to be the right man to do the job!

Seriously - why are you so full of hate? Or are you just full of fear he could uncover still more embarrassing actions of NZ authorities and / or government?

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Lynch him - not a problem, I'll do the job.

Seriously why am I so full of hate - Why wouldn't you be!!! No fear, just what he has done to NZ politics. Think about it, are you happy Fats is on your side? You can't buy everything if you're super rich, unless you have votes Labour need. Labour will sell their soul, their sons & daughters, sell what the poor want to hear, sell anything to get into power and you and me, the taxpayers, will fund it for them.

What happened to innocent until proven guilty? He has already been found guilty multiple times. Feed him to the yanks and get him out of our lives. As much as I don't think David Cunliffe is not the right man for the job, I do feel sorry for him and Labour. Just look who he needs to get into bed with. Once Fats gets in there is not much room for anybody else, problem is he[David Cunliffe] has many bed mates - too many - far too many. He doesn't want to, but knows he must.
So given that, my question to you B.P is, 'are you happy with what Fats brings to the left'?
J.K does not have to shear his bed & I'm happy about that, you B.P?:)

Sgt Pepper
10-06-2014, 12:25 PM
I see John Key is contemplating sacrificing one of his loyal MPs to accommodate the Conservative Party.

fungus pudding
10-06-2014, 12:49 PM
I see John Key is contemplating sacrificing one of his loyal MPs to accommodate the Conservative Party.

Whatever it takes - it's for the good of the country after all.

Sgt Pepper
10-06-2014, 01:25 PM
Whatever it takes - it's for the good of the country after all.
FP
Although a bit harsh and ruthless to an MP who may have loyally served their party and of course all the people in their electorate

Sgt Pepper
10-06-2014, 01:40 PM
I think you have that wrong ... Shouldn't it be:

Whatever it takes - it's for the good of the National Supporter after all.

Belg

Do you remember that the leader of the Conservative Party apparently refused to discount the possibility that vapour trails from jets may contain chemicals to subdue the masses. Perhaps as part of the National Party/ Conservative Party support agreement we shall see the following

1. National agrees that a bill will be introduced to declare that the earth is flat, and that the moon landing in 1969 never happened.

2 National agrees to reintroduce slavery as its abolition in England in 1833 has lead to the current nanny state with far too many people on benefits.

3. National agrees that chemical additives to vapour trails will only be used when Aircraft are flying over Labour electorates.

4 .National agrees to set up a special Police Unit who will be tasked with identifying and prosecuting Witches

fungus pudding
10-06-2014, 01:58 PM
I think you have that wrong ... Shouldn't it be:

Whatever it takes - it's for the good of the National Supporter after all.

True, they're included as well as everyone else.

Harvey Specter
10-06-2014, 02:24 PM
Although a bit harsh and ruthless to an MP who may have loyally served their party and of course all the people in their electorateUnless they get a high list spot, in which case the electorate has two people representing them - win win.

BlackPeter
10-06-2014, 02:37 PM
Lynch him - not a problem, I'll do the job.

Seriously why am I so full of hate - Why wouldn't you be!!! No fear, just what he has done to NZ politics. Think about it, are you happy Fats is on your side? You can't buy everything if you're super rich, unless you have votes Labour need. Labour will sell their soul, their sons & daughters, sell what the poor want to hear, sell anything to get into power and you and me, the taxpayers, will fund it for them.

What happened to innocent until proven guilty? He has already been found guilty multiple times. Feed him to the yanks and get him out of our lives. As much as I don't think David Cunliffe is not the right man for the job, I do feel sorry for him and Labour. Just look who he needs to get into bed with. Once Fats gets in there is not much room for anybody else, problem is he[David Cunliffe] has many bed mates - too many - far too many. He doesn't want to, but knows he must.
So given that, my question to you B.P is, 'are you happy with what Fats brings to the left'?
J.K does not have to shear his bed & I'm happy about that, you B.P?:)

Hi Cuzzie,

I don't think that I can speak for the left - I voted in my life much more often for parties like National and ACT (and Liberals), than I did for Green (however the current bunch of Greenies is too left wing for my taste). Never ever in my life did I vote for Labour or any other left wing party.

As well - I don't particularly like DotCom, and if anybody would have asked me at the time he applied for permanent residency (for some funny reason nobody did), I would have recommended to keep him out of the country.

However - I understand that he openly disclosed his criminal history, and NZ Immigration put his money over the character requirements and granted him permanent residency. I think that a country needs to stand to its word as well I would expect a (wo-)man to (except if they are so called "honourables", of course).

See - we (NZ) gave DotCom permanent residency, and it doesn't matter whether the two of us like this decision - and I think it would be unacceptable to break our (New Zealand's) promise to him, unless it is proven that he broke the law again AFTER him being granted residency. Allegations from quite self-serving companies (entertainment industry) and governments formed by so called "honourables" are certainly not enough in my view to convict anybody without judge or jury.

As well - if he did anything wrong, than he should be put to court either here in New Zealand (his place of residency) or in Germany (his home country). I don't see any acceptable cause to hand him over to a corrupt justice system like the US system is, just because they feel it is easier to prosecute somebody from a third world country like NZ than one of their own DotCom's.

Now - how do you hold it with your and your countries honour? If you don't care, than just keep lynching people ....

Cuzzie
10-06-2014, 10:21 PM
B.P
Dot.Com has broken laws that have probable international covariance. That's what is getting sorted out now though our court system & that's why he is still here. Interesting enough, it's the U.N which has has much to do with such laws and it would be fitting that he falls under their governance. NZ, being a first world country holds treaties with other first world countries. More than likely the ruling will come under a treaty that we have with the USA rather than a U.N protocol. There are few borders with piracy, nor should there be. There is in Russia though, just look at the GameOver Zeus Malware Bug. Another Dot.Com but a way bigger rip off merchant. Check that out here, unbelievable story for sure. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11270580)

Our countries honour is to honour international laws and hand him over. Don't forget even China is having a go at Dot.Com too. Hong Kong Customs froze more than 300 million Hong Kong dollars (US$39 million) in assets belonging to the Megaupload - that's China of all counties. Maybe they didn't like the competition.
He has made money that was other peoples work whether it be music or film. My wifes cousin has an incredible library of CD's and DVD's all downloaded from Megaupload, all done for pennies - that's not right. I have a much smaller library and I have paid the full whack.

The FBI seeks extradition of internet 'pirate' Kim Dot.Com and the chargers are racketeering and money laundering. The yanks take this stuff very seriously, make no bones about it and they will get their man. The extradition trial is set down for next month, needless to say that it should be interesting.

B.P, it's not over till the Fat Man sings & if I was a betting man I'll say he will be singing, "I fought the Law & the Law won (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16u0wwCfoJ4)", in the very near future.

BlackPeter
11-06-2014, 08:40 AM
B.P
Dot.Com has broken laws that have probable international covariance. That's what is getting sorted out now though our court system & that's why he is still here. Interesting enough, it's the U.N which has has much to do with such laws and it would be fitting that he falls under their governance. NZ, being a first world country holds treaties with other first world countries. More than likely the ruling will come under a treaty that we have with the USA rather than a U.N protocol. There are few borders with piracy, nor should there be. There is in Russia though, just look at the GameOver Zeus Malware Bug. Another Dot.Com but a way bigger rip off merchant. Check that out here, unbelievable story for sure. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11270580)

Our countries honour is to honour international laws and hand him over. Don't forget even China is having a go at Dot.Com too. Hong Kong Customs froze more than 300 million Hong Kong dollars (US$39 million) in assets belonging to the Megaupload - that's China of all counties. Maybe they didn't like the competition.
He has made money that was other peoples work whether it be music or film. My wifes cousin has an incredible library of CD's and DVD's all downloaded from Megaupload, all done for pennies - that's not right. I have a much smaller library and I have paid the full whack.

The FBI seeks extradition of internet 'pirate' Kim Dot.Com and the chargers are racketeering and money laundering. The yanks take this stuff very seriously, make no bones about it and they will get their man. The extradition trial is set down for next month, needless to say that it should be interesting.

B.P, it's not over till the Fat Man sings & if I was a betting man I'll say he will be singing, "I fought the Law & the Law won (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16u0wwCfoJ4)", in the very near future.

LOL - who is feeding you with this BS (international covariance ...) - or did you make the story up yourself? I understand that there is an allegation that he knowingly benefited (and potentially encouraged) IP violations while running Megaupload. I don't condone this (if it is true - and agreed, it might be true), but than - there are millions of people around the globe who are doing the same thing. Doesn't make it right, but you wonder, why it makes DotCom to the villain number 1?

As well - if your wife's cousin is breaking the law - why does this mean that we need to lynch DotCom (obviously unless DotCom is your wife's cousin ... but even than I wouldn't condone lynch justice)?

Can't see any reference in the link you published to DotCom - why do you think it is material to this discussion?

Again - I don't want to stand here defending DotCom (there are other people being paid for doing this), but I stand for the right of everybody to be treated in a fair and equitable manner. I stand for "innocent until proven guilty" - and I stand for "pacta sunt servanda" (i.e. agreements must be kept). No matter whether the accused is called DotCom or Cuzzie or any other name.

What do you stand for - Cuzzie?

Sgt Pepper
11-06-2014, 11:54 AM
I agree Belg

John Key has had a rather disturbing tendency since the start of his political career of being, shall we say," economical with the truth"

Cuzzie
11-06-2014, 12:52 PM
LOL - who is feeding you with this BS (international covariance ...) - or did you make the story up yourself? I understand that there is an allegation that he knowingly benefited (and potentially encouraged) IP violations while running Megaupload. I don't condone this (if it is true - and agreed, it might be true), but than - there are millions of people around the globe who are doing the same thing. Doesn't make it right, but you wonder, why it makes DotCom to the villain number 1?

As well - if your wife's cousin is breaking the law - why does this mean that we need to lynch DotCom (obviously unless DotCom is your wife's cousin ... but even than I wouldn't condone lynch justice)?

Can't see any reference in the link you published to DotCom - why do you think it is material to this discussion?

Again - I don't want to stand here defending DotCom (there are other people being paid for doing this), but I stand for the right of everybody to be treated in a fair and equitable manner. I stand for "innocent until proven guilty" - and I stand for "pacta sunt servanda" (i.e. agreements must be kept). No matter whether the accused is called DotCom or Cuzzie or any other name.

What do you stand for - Cuzzie?B.P, sorry I didn't realise you had difficulty with words. Let me explain - International means outside N.Z. Covariance in the manner I used it explains at least two dodgy asserts that work side by side. In other words Megauploads music and video ripoffs that work together and is controlled by Dot.Com international. I can't make up words B.P, but I can use them in the manner intended, if you can't understand that then that's your problem, not mine.

Dot.Com is not villian number one, he has been caught breaking copyright laws - Just like a murderer caught in the act . If you think he should get away with copyright infringements that roll into the millions in profit, then maybe you should revisit your line of thinking.

My wifes cousin may or maynot of been breaking the law, Megaupload was for sure. I would say that Megauploads customers have broken laws somewhere. Personally when I first found out about it, I thought it was illegal and stayed well clear.

The link to the GameOver Zeus Malware Bug was used in reference to my comments on Dot.Com, please read thoroughly before complaining next time.

Your thoughts towards innocent until proven guilty are fair and just. They are your thoughts, not everybody's. I stand for no nonsense or do gooders interfering with justice. In Dot.Coms case, he has not got a leg to stand on. Hollywoods best lawyers are gunning for him & they will not fail. He has broken the law, clear as the water out of a tap. In Dot.Coms case he is guilty and will be proven so.

Sgt Pepper
15-06-2014, 11:33 AM
Colin Craig.... Looking ....

http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1402743879/434/10159434.jpg

... Creepy?

" If you see this man phone police 10-7 and quote photo number 3"

BIRMANBOY
15-06-2014, 04:07 PM
All it needs is a tombstone in the background....you have to question the judgement of anyone allowing this photo to see the light of day. I mean just weird...in a suit and tie lounging seductively in the grass...LOL
Colin Craig.... Looking ....

http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1402743879/434/10159434.jpg

... Creepy?

winner69
15-06-2014, 04:34 PM
All it needs is a tombstone in the background....you have to question the judgement of anyone allowing this photo to see the light of day. I mean just weird...in a suit and tie lounging seductively in the grass...LOL

Creepy it is ...even creepier than Cunliffe ...bugger it

And if they change their mind about this photo too late eh ....it's out there in the public domain in all its creepy glory

Cuzzie
15-06-2014, 04:54 PM
Creepy it is ...even creepier than Cunliffe ...bugger it

And if they change their mind about this photo too late eh ....it's out there in the public domain in all its creepy glory
Yeah Cunliffe isn't creepy at all. No.
5931

Cuzzie
15-06-2014, 05:09 PM
You want to hear creepy, then like Rodney Hide said. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11274163)

Cuzzie
15-06-2014, 05:35 PM
When it comes to politics clearly I always wear the blue coat, however belg, EZ and if there is any other left wingers in Share Trader land (is there?) I do not do it by default - I have standards - mainly just for me to uphold foremost. If National breech what I foresee as my standards, I have no problem in voicing those. Here is my breech, yep you guessed it - the friging U.N. What the hell is National trying to do here? This is far left wing s**t & National has no place in romancing such a fastercil as the U.N are. This article in the NZ Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11274162) pissers me off no end. Leave that NWO s**t to the far left & get on with running the country.
This is Helen Clarks baby, why is National even going there? I'm not far from center, but maybe I've just been pushed that way!!! Nah, bugger that, come on Key, it's just freaky flucking around with Clark's heros. Drop it like a lead footy ball and move on.

westerly
15-06-2014, 07:19 PM
When it comes to politics clearly I always wear the blue coat, however belg, EZ and if there is any other left wingers in Share Trader land (is there?) I do not do it by default - I have standards - mainly just for me to uphold foremost. If National breech what I foresee as my standards, I have no problem in voicing those. Here is my breech, yep you guessed it - the friging U.N. What the hell is National trying to do here? This is far left wing s**t & National has no place in romancing such a fastercil as the U.N are. This article in the NZ Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11274162) pissers me off no end. Leave that NWO s**t to the far left & get on with running the country.
This is Helen Clarks baby, why is National even going there? I'm not far from center, but maybe I've just been pushed that way!!! Nah, bugger that, come on Key, it's just freaky flucking around with Clark's heros. Drop it like a lead footy ball and move on.

The Right Honorable Jim McClay a stalwart of the National Party is NZ's permanent representative to the United Nations. Not sure why you have this morbid fear of the UN ?
or Helen Clark Not sure the UN is left wing either.( fastercil NWO - ? )
westerly

Cuzzie
15-06-2014, 08:59 PM
The Right Honorable Jim McClay a stalwart of the National Party is NZ's permanent representative to the United Nations. Not sure why you have this morbid fear of the UN ?
or Helen Clark Not sure the UN is left wing either.( fastercil NWO - ? )
westerlyLucifer Publishing renamed the Lucis Trust is the start, runnings and up to date of the U.N westerly, that should put fear into you by itself. The link is: Helen Clarke's homome's (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_lucytrust04.htm)Please do feel free to indulge us why the U.N, Helen Clarks U.N is not left wing. You said it now prove it. Stone a Crow, this would get Helen steaming: Throw rocks at those queers (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/11/scott-esk-stoning-gays_n_5486678.html). The world has had enough of this pc B.S from the left, Go hard out the tea party, they would get my vote if I lived in the US.

Cuzzie
16-06-2014, 07:13 AM
Meanwhile on the front page of the Herald today: Under fire donor gave to Labour too. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11274606) Funny how when asked about this, every single Labour M.P that was involved with Donghua Liu can't remember. Funny that, real funny. Hypocrisy on steroids from the loonie left again, what else would you expect.

Minerbarejet
16-06-2014, 07:29 AM
You want to hear creepy, then like Rodney Hide said. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11274163)That photo says it all - pure entertainment alright.
Been trying to think for ages who dotcom reminds me of - an extremely large rendition of the priceless Benny Hill.:)

iceman
16-06-2014, 09:39 AM
You think you are not far from centre? Guffaw! :)

Come on Belg. You know he is. He said he would vote for the centrist Tea Party if he lived in the US. What more proof do you need ? :p

Cuzzie
16-06-2014, 04:57 PM
You think you are not far from centre? Guffaw! :)Don't burst a blood vessel belg. I'm laughing at you laughing. How could you get it so wrong? Wait, I think I know, assumptions - somewhat of a tool for the Left. Saying stuff with proof isn't a goal, but could turn into an own goal. Like I said, I'm not far from the center, that's on the right side of the ledger. The center left is not too bad, however Cunliffe's far Left circus of misfits is beyond a joke. So to use your word belg, I think most NZers are Guffaw at the left right now.:D

westerly
16-06-2014, 06:03 PM
Lucifer Publishing renamed the Lucis Trust is the start, runnings and up to date of the U.N westerly, that should put fear into you by itself. The link is: Helen Clarke's homome's (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_lucytrust04.htm)Please do feel free to indulge us why the U.N, Helen Clarks U.N is not left wing. You said it now prove it. Stone a Crow, this would get Helen steaming: Throw rocks at those queers (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/11/scott-esk-stoning-gays_n_5486678.html). The world has had enough of this pc B.S from the left, Go hard out the tea party, they would get my vote if I lived in the US.

Google fastercil -you may get a shock. As for the the rubbish put out by bibliotecapleyades whoever they may be, you must be joking?
There is just as many left governments as there are right wing governments amongst the countries who make up the UN membership. Your endorsement of the Tea Party says it all.

westerly

Cuzzie
16-06-2014, 09:27 PM
Google fastercil -you may get a shock. As for the the rubbish put out by bibliotecapleyades whoever they may be, you must be joking?
There is just as many left governments as there are right wing governments amongst the countries who make up the UN membership. Your endorsement of the Tea Party says it all.

westerlyYou've got me on a spelling mistake whoop whoop. What are you going to do, write me up a ticket?

If you took time to read the website I gave you westerly, you would find out the The Lucis Trust is the U.N, no joke. Alice Bailey started this particular New Age movement back in 1922 which the U.N is today. I don't know why they call it "New Age" as it is a throwback to pre-modern Europe. It was based on Helena Blavatsky & The Theosophical Society, Google that. Here is a copy & paste from that website: "In an Alice Bailey book called "Education for a New Age"; she suggests that in the new age "World Citizenship should be the goal of the enlightened, with a world federation and a world brain." In other words - a One World Government New World Order (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_nwo.htm)." The U.N is part of the NWO & little old Helen Clark could be running the show in a few years. Maybe that's why Key is backing her, you know, keep your enemies close.
Yes, left and right wing Governments are part of the U.N, all first world Govts. are. No right wing leader will ever run the U.N though. Labour and most certainly the Greens have got into bed with the devil, but hey westerly that can't be a bad thing aye, if you think bad is good!!!

Labour could learn a lot from the Tea Party as they mirror what National as done in the last two terms and will carry on with their third term, reduce debt, not create it.

iceman
17-06-2014, 06:43 AM
So today's Herald-Digi poll shows only Laila Hairre may coat tail in with Hone from the DotCommunist party. Neither Sykes or Minto would make it. And their support comes from the Greens. Surprise surprise.
Meanwhile National could govern alone according to the poll (this is unlikely in reality) and Winston First doesn't make it.
Interesting. Oh forgot. There is one more minor party to be mentioned, Labour on 30 odd percent :t_up:

Cuzzie
17-06-2014, 08:03 AM
The Secretary General does not run the show. Its the big powers that do. The SC is just a mouthpiece with few powers. Discl: A family member works as a UN Rep for another country.

One of the distinctive attributes of those on the extreme left or right is that they see things that are not there. ;)
No your wrong on this occasion belg, because you are perfectly correct with your call on the SC, they are basically just the news reader. The real power in amongst their ranks and higher above. The top of the triangle one might say. Maybe you slipped towards the center just a bit whilst typing your post.

Just to put that in perspective, I support the National Party who is just right of center and on the odd occasion will venture over to left of center. They are a right of center political party who currently enjoys more than one in every two NZ voters backing them.
You support a left of center party, Labour who have been pulled towards the far left by the Greens, Mana and the Fat man. Peters tries to tug back but there is too much weight in the fat man and can not be budged. Peters has faded and Labour continue their move to the far left. Tell me I'm wrong. These fractured left wing parties can muster up a bit of support here and there, mainly robbing votes from each other.70% of voters won't vote for Labour at this election belg, 70%.Conclusion - I support a right of center political party - National.
belg you support a left wing political party, Labour that's moved from left of center towards the far left.


That been said, I think you are seeing things that are not there.;)

Sgt Pepper
17-06-2014, 09:37 AM
So today's Herald-Digi poll shows only Laila Hairre may coat tail in with Hone from the DotCommunist party. Neither Sykes or Minto would make it. And their support comes from the Greens. Surprise surprise.
Meanwhile National could govern alone according to the poll (this is unlikely in reality) and Winston First doesn't make it.
Interesting. Oh forgot. There is one more minor party to be mentioned, Labour on 30 odd percent :t_up:

Morning Iceman
Yes I have just finished reading the article on the Poll in the Herald. Yes its great news for National. OR is it?????
Indulge me for a scenario

NEW YEARS DAY 2016

John Key wakes up, I can't wait to go to Hawaii he thinks. It been an " annis horribilis" for the government. He is angry with Treasury, how come their forecasting was so wrong. The chairman of Fonterra warned him in December that the plumeting dairy prices show no sign of recovering, its quite possible by the middle of 2016 hat the payout could be as low as 3.10 per kg milk solid. The banks are not showing any sign of being kind to highly indebted dairy farmers, mortgagee sales are sharply increasing. The residential housing sector has been a disaster zone, with floating rates now at 12.75%, the unhappy land of negative equity has been well and truly reached, especially in Auckland, mortgagee sales are spiking .
He reflects that the signs were ominous even back in mid 2014, the dismemberment of Iraq with the ISIS Sunni rebels entering Bagdhad and the conflict escalating with Iran confronting them destabilised the Middle East had set the ball rolling.

There are also "issues" within the National Party which, he thinks, he can really do without. He is starting to feel somewhat isolated.Some of the younger, ambitious MPs are becoming increasingly restless. They know there is no prospect of a fourth term and are strategically thinking of their own aspirations. Paula Benett and Michael Woodhouse now have established a real powerbase whom younger MPs are attracted to, their rational is that there is absolutely no chance of victory in 2017 and they must think strategically in the long term and what the future may hold.
At home away from politics Bronagh is fed up with a public life"Wouldn't it be great if we lived in London and you were the High Commissioner, after all its about time Lockwood Smith retired". John ponders this, and will revisit it many times as the political and economic enivironment gets increasingly fraught. If Paula wants the top job she can have it ,he resolves I have secured my legacy

elZorro
17-06-2014, 08:17 PM
Can I just weigh in with an article on wealth distribution in NZ. I think the Gini chart for NZ will be redrawn with new data soon, too.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=11274603

There are many polls and indicators for the election, and a Labour coalition is by no means ruled out at this stage. It's all a matter of perception, is it not?

Labour MP Phil Twyford has a good writeup. (https://www.labour.org.nz/people/phil-twyford)

iceman
18-06-2014, 08:10 AM
Morning Iceman
Yes I have just finished reading the article on the Poll in the Herald. Yes its great news for National. OR is it?????
Indulge me for a scenario

NEW YEARS DAY 2016

John Key wakes up, I can't wait to go to Hawaii he thinks. It been an " annis horribilis" for the government. He is angry with Treasury, how come their forecasting was so wrong. The chairman of Fonterra warned him in December that the plumeting dairy prices show no sign of recovering, its quite possible by the middle of 2016 hat the payout could be as low as 3.10 per kg milk solid. The banks are not showing any sign of being kind to highly indebted dairy farmers, mortgagee sales are sharply increasing. The residential housing sector has been a disaster zone, with floating rates now at 12.75%, the unhappy land of negative equity has been well and truly reached, especially in Auckland, mortgagee sales are spiking .
He reflects that the signs were ominous even back in mid 2014, the dismemberment of Iraq with the ISIS Sunni rebels entering Bagdhad and the conflict escalating with Iran confronting them destabilised the Middle East had set the ball rolling.

There are also "issues" within the National Party which, he thinks, he can really do without. He is starting to feel somewhat isolated.Some of the younger, ambitious MPs are becoming increasingly restless. They know there is no prospect of a fourth term and are strategically thinking of their own aspirations. Paula Benett and Michael Woodhouse now have established a real powerbase whom younger MPs are attracted to, their rational is that there is absolutely no chance of victory in 2017 and they must think strategically in the long term and what the future may hold.
At home away from politics Bronagh is fed up with a public life"Wouldn't it be great if we lived in London and you were the High Commissioner, after all its about time Lockwood Smith retired". John ponders this, and will revisit it many times as the political and economic enivironment gets increasingly fraught. If Paula wants the top job she can have it ,he resolves I have secured my legacy

G'day Sgt Pepper.
More than happy to indulge you. Enjoy your posts.
I am happy to say i don't share your pessimistic view of where we will be in a couple of years but do share a great concern about the craziness happening in the Middle East and also the ongoing tension between Russia and Ukraine.
But should things play out even half as badly as you've outlined, we will be well served and better prepared by having a 3rd term National lead Government.

As for the younger yet experienced National MPs being keen on promotions in a couple of years and watching the eventuality that Key will leave politics with hope of greater responsibility for themselves, is a healthy thing. I am glad also that we can straight away think of worthy future Leaders in the National caucus, something that is hard to see in the Labour caucus.

The main 2 talked about there are Jacinda Ardern and Little but sadly for them, on current polling neither may make it into Parliament next term.
Should current polling turn into reality at the election, Labour will be finished as the dominant party on the Left and will be fighting hard for that spot with the Greens.

Interesting times !

Cuzzie
18-06-2014, 08:13 AM
I must have missed the Labour announcements of Policy that show them being pulled to the left by any other party.

As you've made this assertion many times it would behove you well to support it with some examples. If you can't then your are indeed seeing things that are not there ...

So come on Cuzzie, show us some examples where Labour has changed their policies - and it would need to be official Labour material and not some blog rant - where Labour policy has changed because of something that the Greens or Mana Internet have done.
I have no problem showing you where Labour has changed it's policies as long as you show me where I said that. I said Labour are getting pulled to the far Left and they are, that is the only place they can breath right now and where they belong. Nobody can deny that. Clearly you are seeing things that are not there as I made no mention of policy changers by Labour.

More blindness by Labour this morning. Even after a photo is produced showing Donghua Liu's partner collecting the fundraising signed book that cost $15000.00 & a bottle of wine from Labour. That still can't get Labours memory banks into action. I think it's high time for another winebox inquiry.;) Convenient how Labour always use a fading memory when put under the heat, but act like pit bull terriers when they think they are onto something. Oh yeah, the photo. Red Faced Labour MP's - again!!! (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11276071) belg, Labour caught in the act again. Not a good look, but in saying that the damage is already done. No harm done aye!

westerly
18-06-2014, 10:01 AM
Um ... How about this?



A

I ask for this because your only source of information - at least that you've posted links to - comes from fairly dubious sources.

Most of Cuzzies links come from very dubious sources

westerly

Xerof
18-06-2014, 03:41 PM
Cunliffe must be feeling like Caesar at the moment, but who playing Brute?

I'm not that jaundiced that I can't see this is a set-up, but I guess if ABC want him gone, it's got to happen by the weekend apparently

fungus pudding
18-06-2014, 03:58 PM
Cunliffe must be feeling like Caesar at the moment, but who playing Brute?

I'm not that jaundiced that I can't see this is a set-up, but I guess if ABC want him gone, it's got to happen by the weekend apparently

He doesn't deserve to be dumped for this oversight. They should leave him there as leader.

Xerof
18-06-2014, 04:02 PM
He doesn't deserve to be dumped for this oversight. They should leave him there as leader.

I agree entirely -he's doing a wonderful job for National

Xerof
18-06-2014, 04:06 PM
Not sure you're seeing this for what it is Belg - I suspect this is coming from inside his own party. Might be wrong, but don't think so.....

don't fret over the politics of it all - what else would you expect anyway

fungus pudding
18-06-2014, 04:50 PM
LOL ... Alas, you're probably not far off the truth.

My guess is that Cunliffe probably wrote many such letters and that most MPs have done too.

My MP, National BTW, has and didn't even read the names which were both misspelled and in the wrong order! Their excuse? "My staffer wrote it and I just signed it" or words to that effect. I would certainly not hold this against them as such a mistake is trivial. And after 11 years? Simply not relevant at all.


You are correct. It's mountain out of a molehill political rubbish.

elZorro
18-06-2014, 04:52 PM
X, some is sure coming from inside.

But a huge load of bollocks is coming from the right wing blogosphere, e.g.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz-government/news/article.cfm?c_id=144&objectid=11276526 ... Comments at the bottom pretty much say John Armstrong must have been out for a long lunch when he wrote this piece of utter bollocks.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11276510 ... note that more than a third of the piece is given over to what 3 or more National members have to say. Honestly! Keys sanctimonious b.s. was plenty. But no. Bill English and Steven Joyce have to be quoted as well. This was written by Jared Savage. Hmm ... Time to do some investigation on that name.

I agree Belgarion, there is a lot of right-wing chatter that is belted out, as per the recipe from those Aussie cheerleaders, and most people seem to believe it, eventually. It's far from the truth. I've written once or twice to MPs and received much the same sort of banal reply, form letters. These would be from staffers.

fungus pudding
18-06-2014, 05:32 PM
I agree Belgarion, there is a lot of right-wing chatter that is belted out, as per the recipe from those Aussie cheerleaders, and most people seem to believe it, eventually. It's far from the truth. I've written once or twice to MPs and received much the same sort of banal reply, form letters. These would be from staffers.

Quite right and it will be a lot worse after tomorrow's revelations. All silly stuff really.

neopoleII
18-06-2014, 06:36 PM
in the mean time....... the true red labour voters...... who generally are more concerned with the state of their benefits or "redistributed" tax credits and wff and all the other credits they vote for, have no idea or even understand what is going on here with this current affair.
the center voters... ie the swing voters...... ie working class folks who sort of understand what is going on...... generally......will be paying attention with limited knowledge and judge what is happening by the "20 second sound bite" news. this is where the nats will score more points and the labs will lose points.
and the blue nat voters generally the "rich prieks" aka mana quote... folks who pay the most tax are voting with their pockets ..... and ..... a better understanding of what is happening in NZ as they generally read more political stuff.
end of the day..... there are 3 types of voters..... the loyalist..... the left loyalists are generally on the tax distribution receiving end, while the right loyalist are generally on the paying end.
then there are the ..... whats best for me and my family voters....... the left offers tax distribution for those not so wealthy, and the right offers tax breaks for middle class workers and above.
then there is the 3rd group...... these a middle class income tradys, small business folks, or folks concerned about the state of the nation (green stuff, welbeing, fairness) and listen and think about current politics by way of general media.
this third group is swayed by the 6 month lead up to the election.
so far the nats are collecting votes.
the working class is the ultimate "kingmaker" and the nats are simply playing a better game this time around.

Disc..... I helped vote Helen in, then helped vote her out....... I dont vote from my pocket, I vote by conscience.

slimwin
18-06-2014, 06:37 PM
Yep, silly stuff alright. To think Cunliffe wouldn't make as much a deal about it if was Keys "mistake" is idiotic. It's pure politics and in this election lead up Labour started it first.

Cuzzie
18-06-2014, 07:10 PM
Nice try cuzzie - but no cigar. If, as you assert, Labour is being pulled further to the left then it'd be reflected in their official policy documents. So show us where this is the case or stop spouting mindless drivel.
In your book belg - in your book. Me, I'm smoking a Montecristo No. 2 - a Cuban Montecristo No. 2 and so is National. BTW, a Montecristo No. 2 is the finest (in my book) cigar a man can smoke.
belg, no where in any rule book does it say your policies must change to move left, right or even up or down - there is no rule book. A move to the left or the right can be by partnership, or a relationship between one or more parties. If you enter into an agreement then you are pulled towards the other parties way of thinking. That is whether either party or their supporters (you) like it. So no policy changers necessarily, however open arms for the other parties policies. That will pull you to the far left, right or up and down - understand? Good.
No mindless drivel, but common sense.

BTW, if you really think my source of information comes from a fairly dubious source. name which ones and I will defend them one X one.

Cuzzie
18-06-2014, 07:11 PM
Most of Cuzzies links come from very dubious sources

westerlywesterly, what are you belg's cheer boy? I'm happy to discus any source of mine that you disapprove of. Fire away - Go ahead, make my day

Cuzzie
18-06-2014, 07:12 PM
Finally, well -well -well. You know this really does sadden me. I've said all along that National needs a strong opposition to get the best out of them. Sadly, the whole left of center is straight out of a Monty Python gig. Man I feel for the likes of E.Z, belg and westerly and I really do mean that. We all must know what they are going through right now knowing full well that their side is just a pathetic joke. I too would still be talking them up - somehow if I was in their shoes. My advice for Labour is run with David Cunliffe as this election is gone for them now. No point in promoting another Labour leader now. Then shortly after, elect somebody in their ranks that actually has talent. I'm thinking Jacinda Ardern and not for her good looks, or that gay feller, what's his name Graham or Grant Robertson. At least his sexiaty fits in. He will get the odd dig from bloggers like me, but I think he would do a far better job than D.C. The new leader has to disassociate themselves from Peters, the Greens, Mana and the Internet party right from the start and get confidence from their really support, the center left. The only way they can win in 2017 is to get back their true colours and belg that means center left and center left only. Please let this happen, forget the little parties, get back to two strong parties and that will be the tool needed to guide our country into the 2020s & beyond. Just to finish, EZ read what neopoleII has written just above. It's a bloody good summing up of how it is and for that very reason your theory on 3 or 4 terms goes right out the back door. Unless Labour revisits their ground roots or finds new ones, National could be in power for a generation.

Cuzzie
18-06-2014, 07:31 PM
Clinton: I did not have sexual relations with that woman.

Cunliffe: I have not lied
What do these statements have in common?

elZorro
18-06-2014, 08:50 PM
in the mean time....... the true red labour voters...... who generally are more concerned with the state of their benefits or "redistributed" tax credits and wff and all the other credits they vote for, have no idea or even understand what is going on here with this current affair.
the center voters... ie the swing voters...... ie working class folks who sort of understand what is going on...... generally......will be paying attention with limited knowledge and judge what is happening by the "20 second sound bite" news. this is where the nats will score more points and the labs will lose points.
and the blue nat voters generally the "rich prieks" aka mana quote... folks who pay the most tax are voting with their pockets ..... and ..... a better understanding of what is happening in NZ as they generally read more political stuff.
end of the day..... there are 3 types of voters..... the loyalist..... the left loyalists are generally on the tax distribution receiving end, while the right loyalist are generally on the paying end.
then there are the ..... whats best for me and my family voters....... the left offers tax distribution for those not so wealthy, and the right offers tax breaks for middle class workers and above.
then there is the 3rd group...... these a middle class income tradys, small business folks, or folks concerned about the state of the nation (green stuff, welbeing, fairness) and listen and think about current politics by way of general media.
this third group is swayed by the 6 month lead up to the election.
so far the nats are collecting votes.
the working class is the ultimate "kingmaker" and the nats are simply playing a better game this time around.

Disc..... I helped vote Helen in, then helped vote her out....... I dont vote from my pocket, I vote by conscience.

I thought I should post here before you run a record series of posts Cuzzie, and Neopole has spent a fair bit of time putting this post together.

Neopole is correct, National often win the sound bites challenge, but don't forget it's the serious money they have spent with Crosby Textor that is guiding them here. It's an unfair contest, but Russel Norman gives them a go from the left when he's given a chance.

I'm very loyal to Labour, but that doesn't mean I'm a bludger. I've met some people who are helping out in Labour's campaign, and these voters are not bludgers either. The common thread to most of these people is that they are keen observers of what is going on around them. They have taken the time to do some reading, they look past the sound bites, they even research statistics sometimes. I've posted some of them up, and like the Greens, who also do their homework, they are on safe ground when they say that NZ (as a whole) would be better off under Labour. Some special interests would disagree, but they are the privileged few.

David Cunliffe is in no trouble at all over the latest 11 year old form letter. The fact that it's all over the press and everyone is talking about it, is all due to Crosby Textor pressing the GO buttons on anything that could be useful. Labour don't have their response quite as organised, they want to run a straight election on the issues. My advice is not to let National hide those issues, because they are real, and National's record from the last few years is in most cases very poor.

Here's a late 2013 article about the right-leaning Fairfax Media (http://www.fairfaxmedia.co.nz/general-files/ffx-corporate/ffx-portfolio-map-reduced2013.pdf), who have a major piece of the action in all our news feeds in NZ. Sure, there are some leftish commentators too, but the important 'reporters' are involved in the leading stories. Stuff.co.nz is the Fairfax site that makes these stories widely available. I'd noted Tracy Watkins too. Not very balanced reporting at all. Fairfax have all the main provincial papers, and the advert revenue that goes with that. Apparently they're not too keen on paying for lots of in-depth reporting.

http://fearfactsexposed.wordpress.com/2013/11/10/pimping-keys-government-stuff-co-nz-and-the-nz-national-party/

iceman
18-06-2014, 09:54 PM
Yep, silly stuff alright. To think Cunliffe wouldn't make as much a deal about it if was Keys "mistake" is idiotic. It's pure politics and in this election lead up Labour started it first.

Absolutely on the button slimwin. I think this 11 year old letter is neither here nor there. But what this has achieved is that now Labour will look even more hypocritical each time they call National corrupt, for exactly the same practices. This was going to be Labour's major theme in the election campaign and it has been neutered.

I suggest so have Labour's chances. They are in complete disarray. Xerof is most likely right that this is a job on Cunliffe from within Labour. Recent polls suggest noone below David Parker on the party list may make it to Parliament. That creates lots of unhappy campers !

I wholeheartedly agreed that Maurice Williamson's interference with a police matter was wrong and Key was right to demand his resignation.
Now a letter has come out from former Labour MP David Carter's office putting pressure on Immigration NZ about the same guy, while his immigration application was being processed and he explicitly asked them to hurry it through the process. It is equally wrong.
But it shows that this sort of "lobbying" is undertaken by all political parties, be they left or right.

blackcap
19-06-2014, 05:25 AM
Labour need to get rid of Cunliffe and fast. He is a bit liability and seeing Shearer last night on Paul Henry they must be kicking themselves that they replaced him. Shearer is intelligent and articulate and I can relate to him as a person as well. Latest Poll in Stuff puts Labour on 23% and National on 55%. Disaster.

elZorro
19-06-2014, 06:50 AM
This has been a classic play by Crosby-Textor, no doubt about it. John Key knew about this ancient form letter 2 weeks ago. It's no coincidence that while he's apparently doing statesmanlike things overseas, the details were released about David Cunliffe's signature over here. And the stuff.co.nz poll showing low figures came out about the same time. The IPSOS poll always seems to rate Labour lower than on other polls. If you think about it, you just have to screen the people to call. Not hard to take a guess on their voting direction, from some of the data available to anyone.

Can we get back to real issues before the election? Crosby-Textor and National don't want that.

iceman
19-06-2014, 07:18 AM
This has been a classic play by Crosby-Textor, no doubt about it. John Key knew about this ancient form letter 2 weeks ago. It's no coincidence that while he's apparently doing statesmanlike things overseas, the details were released about David Cunliffe's signature over here. And the stuff.co.nz poll showing low figures came out about the same time. The IPSOS poll always seems to rate Labour lower than on other polls. If you think about it, you just have to screen the people to call. Not hard to take a guess on their voting direction, from some of the data available to anyone.

Can we get back to real issues before the election? Crosby-Textor and National don't want that.

I know it is convenient and you like to blame everything on Crosby-Textor, but this time surely even you EZ can see that Cunliffe has not got any support apart from Sue Moroney within his own caucus. He is turning out to be a complete disaster along with the experiment that is the presidential style Leader vote.
My prediction is that if they stay with Cunliffe until the election, the haemorrhaging will be so severe that Labour will become a shadow of its former self and remain so for 2-3 elections. Possibly ending up as a junior partner in a Greens lead Government in 2020 or 2023 !!!

fungus pudding
19-06-2014, 07:25 AM
Labour need to get rid of Cunliffe and fast. He is a bit liability and seeing Shearer last night on Paul Henry they must be kicking themselves that they replaced him. Shearer is intelligent and articulate and I can relate to him as a person as well. Latest Poll in Stuff puts Labour on 23% and National on 55%. Disaster.

Which tells us this latest Cunliffe guff will do no harm at all to Labour. They are already as low as they will get.

fungus pudding
19-06-2014, 07:31 AM
I know it is convenient and you like to blame everything on Crosby-Textor, but this time surely even you EZ can see that Cunliffe has not got any support apart from Sue Moroney within his own caucus. He is turning out to be a complete disaster along with the experiment that is the presidential style Leader vote.
My prediction is that if they stay with Cunliffe until the election, the haemorrhaging will be so severe that Labour will become a shadow of its former self and remain so for 2-3 elections. Possibly ending up as a junior partner in a Greens lead Government in 2020 or 2023 !!!

I can't see Greens passing Labour until they drop this silly co-leader stuff. They shouldn't expect to lead a govt. when the voters do not know which one would be Prime Minister, or do they really think people will vote in co-Prime ministers? If they sorted this out now they'd start to erode Labour even further.

Cuzzie
19-06-2014, 07:56 AM
Which tells us this latest Cunliffe guff will do no harm at all to Labour. They are already as low as they will get.So low - 77 voters in every 100 will not vote for Labour. 77 in every 100. EZ, keep on blaming everybody else, I like that. Head in the sand will lose even more votes. Look at the real issue here, your leader. Pathetic in a word. He will be doing well to hold onto 23%.


Anybody want to take EZ up on his wager still, or is that closed. EZ?:D

Cuzzie
19-06-2014, 08:11 AM
Oh dear - more to come & the link is Labour's crisis (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11277098)

I agree with EZ, talking about a useless Labour is ho-hum. Lets talk about the next Labour leader or something. This is kind of like comparing the All Blacks to Bangladesh in a Rugby game. Labour has downgraded itself as a political force and is in the middle of full on imploding

iceman
19-06-2014, 08:21 AM
I can't see Greens passing Labour until they drop this silly co-leader stuff. They shouldn't expect to lead a govt. when the voters do not know which one would be Prime Minister, or do they really think people will vote in co-Prime ministers? If they sorted this out now they'd start to erode Labour even further.

Yep, agree with that. Hence projecting 2-3 more National lead terms before the Greens sort this and a few others issues out to make themselves more electable !

iceman
19-06-2014, 09:26 AM
Suggest you re-read the letter as the highlighted bits are WRONG so the conclusion is also WRONG.

Uh no, you are wrong Belg.
This is from the letter sent to Immigration NZ from Chris Carter's office in October 2002 (highlights are mine) :


"Therefore they have requested that this office approach Immigration New Zealand in order to expedite the application process which will enable this business venture to proceed in a timely fashion," wrote the electorate agent.
Mr Liu has already invested over $3 million in the ASB in Auckland and is keen to purchase this particular building for redevelopment.
I would be grateful for any consideration that could be given to expediting this application."

artemis
19-06-2014, 09:26 AM
...................... Neopole is correct, National often win the sound bites challenge but don't forget it's the serious money they have spent with Crosby Textor that is guiding them here. It's an unfair contest, but Russel Norman gives them a go from the left when he's given a chance.........

I don't agree that National often win the soundbite challenge, though it is a subjective measure of course. I would have said the Opposition win much more often. Partly because the Government is responding rather than initiating a lot of the time, which is the Opposition doing a good job. But also because the Government parties tend to be more measured, less colourful, even rather boring. Which I suppose is their job.

artemis
19-06-2014, 09:33 AM
...................... I'm very loyal to Labour, but that doesn't mean I'm a bludger. I've met some people who are helping out in Labour's campaign, and these voters are not bludgers either. The common thread to most of these people is that they are keen observers of what is going on around them. They have taken the time to do some reading, they look past the sound bites, they even research statistics sometimes. I've posted some of them up, and like the Greens, who also do their homework, they are on safe ground when they say that NZ (as a whole) would be better off under Labour. Some special interests would disagree, but they are the privileged few. ........................

Certainly that doesn't make you a bludger, and you do provide useful balance in this thread.

But..... I live in Wellington Central and know a fair few lefties of various stripes, including quite a few academics. Off hand I can't think of any who are not being partly or fully funded by the public purse one way or another. That doesn't make them bludgers, of course. It does mean they have a serious interest in maintaining taxpayer subsidies or other inputs to their lives.

Most people who are active in politics are keen observers of life, the universe and everything.

J R Ewing
19-06-2014, 10:10 AM
Iceman, a dictionary would help you no end ...

ex·pe·dite
make (an action or process) happen sooner or be accomplished more quickly.

It does not mean ...

en·dorse
declare one's public approval or support of.

BTW ... Have you read the whole letter by Chris Carter? No? ... Why is that?

And did you read David Cunliffe's letter?

Actually Belg, that letter is a pretty clear endorsement of the application even though it is not expressly written. "Expediting" the application would only have the desired effect of "enabling the business venture to proceed in a timely fashion", if the application was APPROVED quickly. DECLINING the application quickly wouldn't help. The clear inference to be drawn is that the writer believes it is inevitable but just a matter of time before the application will be approved. If that ain't endorsement, what is?

Harvey Specter
19-06-2014, 10:40 AM
Belg - In my opinion, it is a carefully drafted letter that infers but does not state, get it done and get it done quickly.

Add that to the fact that there seems to be pay-off to Labour, in the form of donations before the next election, it doesn't look good.

And yes, it looks just as bad for National in relation to the citizenship as it does for Labour for the residency, but then National wasn't trying to claim the moral high ground.

Harvey Specter
19-06-2014, 10:43 AM
It will be interesting to see if any new allegations come out in question time (ie. cant be sued). The rumour is the bottle of wine cost $100k - Thank you very much for the residency.

NO one can publish that though as there is no proof - helped by the fact that Labour appear to have breached electoral law by not disclosing (at least in relation to the $15k book).

slimwin
19-06-2014, 10:45 AM
Why would it damage their brands if the majority of the public agree? And in that majority a lot of people with money to spend.

J R Ewing
19-06-2014, 12:25 PM
Do you really want a teenage schoolyard gossip leading New Zealand?

HELL NO, we want David Cunliffe. Once this rogue poll can be put behind us he can continue to talk about the real issues and just watch the silent majority carry him to victory in September. It's gonna be a Labour Landslide!
We probably won't even need Hone, Lailla, Russell and Winston.

Sgt Pepper
19-06-2014, 01:26 PM
That'd be a change. Alas, not what that nice Mr Key wants and his sycophantic media shills will ensure this doesn't happen.

January 1st 2015
Dear Mr Key

Naturally we are delighted at you success in achieving a third term for national in the election in September. However we are mindful that the chance of attaining the treasury benches in 2017 are very low indeed. Consequently we believe it is best to make the most of the political capital we have been delivered.
As we have consistently supported your government since 2008, it is timely to remind you there is some disquiet that much has not been achieved that aligns with our economic views. Specifically we expect the following to be progressed and embedded during the third term.

Privatisation of ACC to enable the insurance industry to participate fully.

Selling off of further state assets, especially Kiwibank

Labour market reform, with reintroduction of Employment Contracts Act, although naturally it would have to labelled differently.

Reduction of Corporate tax to 25%

Reintroduction of interest on student loans

Reversing entitlements under working for families.

We look forward to your views

Yours sincerely

National Party Donors

J R Ewing
19-06-2014, 04:33 PM
January 1st 2015
Dear Mr Key

Naturally we are delighted at you success in achieving a third term for national in the election in September. However we are mindful that the chance of attaining the treasury benches in 2017 are very low indeed. Consequently we believe it is best to make the most of the political capital we have been delivered.
As we have consistently supported your government since 2008, it is timely to remind you there is some disquiet that much has not been achieved that aligns with our economic views. Specifically we expect the following to be progressed and embedded during the third term.

Privatisation of ACC to enable the insurance industry to participate fully.

Selling off of further state assets, especially Kiwibank

Labour market reform, with reintroduction of Employment Contracts Act, although naturally it would have to labelled differently.

Reduction of Corporate tax to 25%

Reintroduction of interest on student loans

Reversing entitlements under working for families.

We look forward to your views

Yours sincerely

National Party Donors

Yeah, that would be nice but the reality is you will get the same old centre left policies that they have been peddling for the last two terms. Look forward to more parental leave entitlements, free doctors visits, no change to super, free school meals, massive funding for decile 1, and other welfare - dressed up as fighting child poverty where possible.

fungus pudding
19-06-2014, 04:42 PM
Yeah, that would be nice but the reality is you will get the same old centre left policies that they have been peddling for the last two terms. Look forward to more parental leave entitlements, free doctors visits, no change to super, free school meals, massive funding for decile 1, and other welfare - dressed up as fighting child poverty where possible.


Corporate tax reduction will hopefully be on the agenda; not much chance of the rest.

elZorro
19-06-2014, 05:08 PM
One way or another, those on low pay or without jobs pay a fair bit towards the economy. While things may appear tough in America, in the middle states at least, you can buy petrol, food and beer for about 50% -66% of what it costs here, wages might start at US$8/hr and hospitality lower, but with tips. The rental on a rural house is $200 (A MONTH). So you see here that our GST, excise taxes and high rentals exact a heavy toll on the lower paid.

So I disagree with JR Ewing and FP. Let's wait and see what happens to the GINI index on the next report. And like Belgarian, I can't believe the press that has been organised on an old letter that showed to be completely above board, in what it expressed.

Belgarian, do you have any knowledge on whether Crosby-Textor are still employed by National in the lead-up to this election? Looking at the way National have run this country for the last few years, I don't think it's possible that they have engineered this broadside themselves.

fungus pudding
19-06-2014, 05:18 PM
One way or another, those on low pay or without jobs pay a fair bit towards the economy. While things may appear tough in America, in the middle states at least, you can buy petrol, food and beer for about 50% -66% of what it costs here, wages might start at US$8/hr and hospitality lower, but with tips. The rental on a rural house is $200 (A MONTH). So you see here that our GST, excise taxes and high rentals exact a heavy toll on the lower paid.





You obviously have spent little time in the states. Each state sets its own sales tax along with all sorts of other taxes. Workers get 2 weeks annual leave and often work long hours. There is little point in quoting rural rentals - it's the same the world over. Rents are high where people want to live - low where there is little demand. That's pretty much the way the world works with everything. Most people seem to know that although Labour politicians don't seem to know it. While I hate to state something so obvious, prices always exact a high toll on the lower paid.

P.S. You will be delighted to know I have set a photo of D Cunliffe as my desktop picture. follow this link

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/

and scroll through photos to 'Mike's editorial' and you can share in my delight.

fungus pudding
19-06-2014, 05:53 PM
One notes that the hack Mike Hoskings makes all the same shilled remarks as all the other shills and is just as wrong on the fact as all the other shills. But then Hoskings never been that interested in the truth. ...

How much does Mike Hoskings earn per annum? A few hundred grand? And he might have to pay a bit more tax under a Labour govt?

So buggar the truth. Fck justice. So long as the right wing shills keep getting richer its fine to keep spouting lies until they become truth .... What a great fcking country we live in! NOT!


Oh dear - you're not having a good day, are you!

Major von Tempsky
19-06-2014, 06:56 PM
I note an Internet poll on MSN NZ is running heavily in favour of Cunliffe should resign :-)

The old confusion above between infer and imply.

I imply something in a statement and you infer something from my statement.

Get it right for goodness sakes....

Major von Tempsky
19-06-2014, 06:57 PM
You can be sure Paul Holmes would have been much worse and a lot more irritating...

iceman
19-06-2014, 08:29 PM
Actually Belg, that letter is a pretty clear endorsement of the application even though it is not expressly written. "Expediting" the application would only have the desired effect of "enabling the business venture to proceed in a timely fashion", if the application was APPROVED quickly. DECLINING the application quickly wouldn't help. The clear inference to be drawn is that the writer believes it is inevitable but just a matter of time before the application will be approved. If that ain't endorsement, what is?

Spot on J R Ewing.
You can tell Belgie is getting very frustrated watching his Glorious Leader and Party fall apart before his eyes so he just attacks us, rather than the subject :mellow:

Cuzzie
19-06-2014, 08:32 PM
Yeah, even the Herald favors the Nats over Labour now belg. They must all be scabs now. Put the word out to all the comrades not to buy the Herald because they speak the truth. Nobody likes losers. About time the Herald weren't so one eyed towards Labour. So now every reporter is a right wing shill and they are all wrong. Nope my friend it is you that is wrong. Labour and Cunliffe are hopelessly out of the touch with reality - stuck in the 90s still and there they will remain until they step up. To emphasize this and in the theme of words you have been using today, they are flucked. Completely and utterly flucked. Labour has done this to themselves and National continues to recover from the dark bad Helen Clarks days.
I feel good right now about how this election is going to unfold.

BTW, here is the direct link to the D.C photo fungus pudding was talking about. Cunliffe caught fibbing. (http://iforce.co.nz/i/4u3gvzqq.155.jpg)

elZorro
20-06-2014, 06:13 AM
Cuzzie, DC was simply left in the dark about a form letter he signed 11 years ago. The reasons for this were perfectly reasonable. Whoever wrote the letter got the person's name in the title correct, but spelt his surname incorrectly, twice, in the document. This meant it was filed in the wrong order. As the letter was not corrected before it was sent, the implication is that David Cunliffe had a very brief encounter with that page, probably signing it along with other documents as part of his electorate duties.

Now we can also look at other comparisons with Maurice Williamson's situation. Mr Liu was in David Cunliffe's electorate, but not in Mr Williamson's. At the time of DC's involvement, Mr Liu was not the subject of a Police enquiry, and DC did not contact the Police about him. Mr Liu doesn't have a holiday home adjacent to the Labour MP. DC's letter was also fully within the laws of this country, it is what an MP's office does. It advocates, within the rules, for constituents.

As the Immigration office knew about this letter early in May, but didn't pass on the details to David Cunliffe (they passed it on to the National Party via govt), a trap has been set for DC, and it will have taken a week or so to get that ready.

NZ Resources has an item.


Test of Cunliffe’s leadership hold
By Dene Mackenzie
New Zealand Labour Party leader David Cunliffe will from today face the toughest test yet of his leadership following revelations he advocated on behalf of wealthy Chinese businessman Donghua Liu.
As it has transpired, Liu has donated significant sums to both Labour and National and MPs on both sides of the spectrum have advocated on his behalf.
National Party MP Maurice Williamson resigned as a minister after it emerged he had contacted police to ask about the progress of a case of assaulting a woman with intent to injure after an incident at an Auckland hotel.
It also emerged Williamson and Liu were neighbours at a Coromandel holiday area, despite Williamson feigning innocence about any friendship.
Cunliffe, as the MP for New Lynn, wrote a letter in 2003 advocating for Mr Liu after he was “approached my constituent Donghua Lui who is concerned at the time it is taking to process his Investment Category application.”
Cunliffe this week denied any involvement with Liu's residency bid after the New Zealand Herald revealed the property developer paid $15,000 at a Labour Party fundraiser for a book signed by former Prime Minister Helen Clark in 2007.
Liu was granted residency under the Investor Category in 2005 by Labour's associate immigration minister Damien O'Connor - against official advice.
Labour has hurled insults at National about “cash for access'' to ministers, when it now appears Labour has done exactly the same thing.
The level of distaste and public cynicism surrounding the coming election is rising quickly.
Why this is important to Cunliffe is that from today Labour MPs can change their leader without resorting to the tortuous process of consulting the membership and the powerful trade union lobby - the two parts of the party which supported Cunliffe. He failed to win caucus support.
Taking over as Labour leader now would almost certainly be a losing battle for this election. However, Clark took three campaigns to win power and then went on to be one of New Zealand's highest-regarded leaders and now is the third-highest ranked official at the UN. She is also being touted as a possible UN secretary-general.
A Labour MP, with support from his or her colleagues, could survive an election loss and take the party into power in 2017. But Labour has developed a habit of dumping leaders quickly in the search for the next big thing. If this continues, someone not yet elected may become the next Labour prime minister.
*Dene Mackenzie is political editor of the Otago Daily Times.


Note that any donations from Mr Liu appear four years into the future from the Cunliffe letter.

elZorro
20-06-2014, 07:14 AM
Belgarion, I see another poll has Labour at a more sensible 28%. It's weird that of the 1000-odd people contacted by IPSOS in the normal way, only 23% +/- 3.1% supported Labour. I looked at the IPSOS rules for choosing voters, it looked sensible. But 1000 is not a big sample of 4500000 people.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/another-poll-has-labour-below-30-ck-157976

blackcap
20-06-2014, 07:26 AM
But 1000 is not a big sample of 4500000 people.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/another-poll-has-labour-below-30-ck-157976

I suggest you take a statistics course. NCEA level 3 will suffice. :) A sample size of 1000 if the sample is done correctly is more than adequate and that is why they do have the margins of error with these polls. As the sample size increases.... so does the margin of error decrease.

Jay
20-06-2014, 07:51 AM
Really the only poll that counts is on election day, as nearly anything could happen between now and then to swing the vote in either direction

Harvey Specter
20-06-2014, 08:05 AM
Really the only poll that counts is on election day, as nearly anything could happen between now and then to swing the vote in either directionYOu sound like a politian who is behind in the polls!

Harvey Specter
20-06-2014, 08:08 AM
Curia blogs all the polls and in the top right corner, aggregates them into a poll of polls:

http://curiablog.wordpress.com/

blackcap
20-06-2014, 08:40 AM
Adequate for what purpose Blackcap? If you've done NCEA level 3 you'd not make such a blanket statement without qualifying it with a statement as to its intended purpose. So what, in your qualified opinion, was it "adequate" for?

It's intended purpose as a poll predicting a population result with a reasonable margin of error which the pollsters also state. Yes sampling is important and that is why I qualified my initial statement that it needs to be done correctly. Yes I know its not linear belg... how big a sample would you use for a political poll?
What is interesting to me though is that even with all the noise and sampling error and other errors, Labour seems to be averaging about 30% and National around the 48% mark. Good enough for me.
NCEA level 3 was suggested because from distant memory, 7th form stats was enough to understand sampling and how it relates to population. Quantitative studies at Uni off course go a little more in depth.

Sgt Pepper
20-06-2014, 09:49 AM
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11277605

Its looking increasing likely that National has done a deal with Mr Lui.

I.e. Mr Lui keeps silent about National Party politicians, spills all he can about any involvement with Labour people (no matter how tenuous) to the media shills for them to sensationalise and misrepresent. ...

Sure looks like a smear campaign. ...

No doubt the Prime Minister will have "plausible deniability" in place by using some third party. I wonder who it is this time? Exclusive Brethren again? Probably not. Key can afford to buy better.

I wonder what's in it for Mr Lui? Surely not residency? Nope, as Mr Lui is Chinese its most likely financial. I wonder how much.

Yes Belg
Our duplicitous Prime Minister can forget about his ownership of 100,000 shares in Tranz Rail in 2003 yet David Cunliffe is supposed to recall a letter written at the same time, I know who sounds less credible to me, and its not David Cunliffe.

Sgt Pepper
20-06-2014, 09:54 AM
I don,t like witch hunts, whether ancient or modern as to the current sanctimonious drivel being peddled by John Key, Well I have great faith in the laws of the Universe and we know what goes around comes around.I await his eventual political come uppance

Jay
20-06-2014, 09:56 AM
YOu sound like a politian who is behind in the polls! :)

Couldn't do much worse of a job than the majority of them.

As Belg says the result can depend on the question asked. I did see one not that long ago (Can't recall what the subject/question was) that if the question was asked in a different way, there would have been a very different result. The question was asked in a way to get the result wanted.

BlackPeter
20-06-2014, 10:10 AM
Seems my description of the Prime Minister (and his sycophantic followers) is correct ...

Meanwhile in Washington, Mr Key was overheard quipping National had already taken out the only potential leader of the Opposition he was worried about.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11277606

Not a statesman .... just an uber rich, teenage-intellected, schoolyard gossip and bully.

Reminds me a lots of George W Bush and how he behaved off-camera ...

Which reminds me ... G.W. how's Iraq going? Civil war looming there I hear?

Like John Key, George W Bush was filthy rich too wasn't he? And George W Bush looked after all his mates (e.g. Halliburton) and all the filthy rich got even more filthy rich. Bird's of a feather?

Hi Belg - wasn't it Labour who took Shane Jones out in the first place, when they picked David Cunliffe against the wishes of their own caucus and against the wishes of the general population? Is it really Nationals fault that David is much better in demonstrating his arrogance than in connecting to the people?

Look - I do understand your pain and frustration, and personally I would love to see in NZ politics at least a credible alternative from the left. However - I don't think that Labour has any chance to govern again unless they start to sort out the source of their own misery. Maybe, just maybe its not National's fault, and maybe it is not even the people's fault that they don't love Labour anymore. Just a thought - maybe Labour should have a good look into the mirror to identify the culprit.

blackcap
20-06-2014, 10:36 AM
http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1402109847/537/10131537_600x400.jpg

Interesting, isn't it, that the "Cunliffe Letter" distraction surfaced at the same time a number reports surfaced on inequality and poverty in New Zealand? One was quite sad ... Indians in Mumbai slums are as well off as the "lower classes" in NZ.

)

I think you might find that the Herald have done a bit of a back track on the above story, because there is no substance to it :)

westerly
20-06-2014, 11:22 AM
I suggest you take a statistics course. NCEA level 3 will suffice. :) A sample size of 1000 if the sample is done correctly is more than adequate and that is why they do have the margins of error with these polls. As the sample size increases.... so does the margin of error decrease.

The NBR poll quoted surveyed by telephone 845 people 5% of whom did not name a party. This is not a cross section of the public because not every one has a land line these days and many do not have a phone.at all.
The Fairfax poll if you read the fine print said 777 respondents were decided on who they would vote for. The 237 undecided voters were disregarded in the results.
Also not mentioned is how many were asked but refused to take part.
The Fairfax poll shows bias in the way the results were interpreted and reported favouring the right. The 23% of undecided voters were ignored in other words

Harvey Specter
20-06-2014, 12:00 PM
Because the NZ media has already been "bought" by National.Bullsh.. Campbell live when very softly with DC. Compare that to how JC when with Key (or Bridges) last year.

Having said that Paul Henry gave him a bit more of a hassle.

Would be great to see an election show co-host by Campbell and Henry.

rivka
20-06-2014, 01:09 PM
Belgarion, you seem to think everyone can be brought. If so how much would I have to pay you to vote for national at the next election?

fungus pudding
20-06-2014, 01:14 PM
Belgarion, you seem to think everyone can be brought. If so how much would I have to pay you to vote for national at the next election?

No, but he/she thinks they can be bought. Given Belgarion's socialist attitude to wanting money that others have earned, I think his/her vote could be easily bought. Labour tries it every election with Belgarion types.

fungus pudding
20-06-2014, 01:46 PM
FALSE. And I'm disappointed FP that you'd respond in this way.

I have reiterated again and again that I'm in favour of Capital Gains Tax and this would result in me paying significantly more tax than what is collected on my 6 figure salary. This is, to me, is completely fair.

But FP, if you repeat it again and again like NZ media then someone may believe you.

Oops. But you have no pulpit from which to preach, unlike APN Media (NZ Herald) and Fairfax Media (Stuff.co.nz) and ZB radio.

No you won't succeed in this character assassination because every time you repeat this falsehood I will, once again, point out that its not true and, of course, you're a National Party sycophant and you are only interested in character assignation because your a selfish b'stard who is furthering their own selfish wants while those with real needs suffer.

Shame on you Fungus Pudding.

Brilliant analysis of someone you do not know. It's rubbish of course. Furthermore it makes no sense. If you are making profits by selling properties you will be paying income tax on that amount. If you want to pay more that's fine with me. The Salvation Army is my favourite charity, not that I believe one word of the god-bothering crap they believe in, but they do an excellent job of assisting the needy. You could give a chunk of your profits to them.

BlackPeter
20-06-2014, 02:39 PM
Okay, let me ask you this: In the last 5 days how much media time has been devoted to the strengths and weakness of Labour vs. National policies? Or indeed the Greens, NZ First, Conservatives, etc, etc.

Not much huh? ... Why?

Because the NZ media has already been "bought" by National. All the media in NZ, with the exception of TVNZ, is owned by overseas concerns who are only really interested in their profits. Social justice, a fair taxation system that ensures the wealthy pay their fair share, or even whether NZ will be a Banana Republic in 10 years, doesn't even enter their thinking.

...



Hi Belg, I agree with your quality assessment of the NZ media, we might however disagree on the cause. With very few exceptions (National radio?) you can describe what they deliver only by using one of these unspeakable four letter words (and I don't mean hope ...). Little research, journalists focussing on tactics and personal stuff instead of on substance and issues. If anything happens they prefer to interview a huge bunch of accidental bystanders, neighbours and the quota of clueless children instead of focussing on the issues. But hey, this sort of **** is just much cheaper and easier to produce than well researched journalism. Some people might consider it as well as entertaining - and hey, it is hard to fill one hour with good quality journalism.

Looking however at the cause of the problem - not sure, whether I agree with you. Have seen over the last two decades hardly any good NZ TV and well researched newspaper articles are few and far between. National radio is not too bad, but can only excel given that there is nothing else worthwhile listening to (nothing wrong with Concert FM - I mean political analysis).

Why do you blame National for this situation? Labour had quite a lengthy reign during this time. Yes, Labour managed to get a number of their cronies into well paid positions (tax payer footing the bill) - and still seem to do so under National (Taurima affair), but other than that - just remind me, how they changed the quality of our media?

fungus pudding
20-06-2014, 02:58 PM
No analysis required Fungus Pudding.

I need only go back a few pages to see the last conversation between you and me on the same topic.

And a few more pages back to see the same again.

Your smoke screen arguments against a CGT didn't stand up then and won't again.

The conversation goes almost exactly as the one above goes. It gets the same response and the same outcome. Want to go there again?

And by the way ... I do know you. I know you well. And most of your scurrilous, selfish kind who believe the only form of tax should be on people who work for wages and salaries while your small businesses are used to escape tax whenever you can.


Not me. I don't have any small businesses; or big ones for that matter.

BIRMANBOY
20-06-2014, 03:45 PM
Belg, you're frothing round the edges there a tad. Govt stats site tells me that in 2013 there were 472,601 businesses in NZ with 1,941,000 employees. These are businesses from 1-5 up to 100 plus employees. So are you suggesting that all those scurrilous, selfish employers don't have a very important role in the economy by directly starting and running said business and providing employment for said individuals. Owners and self employed individuals pay taxes just the same as all the rest of us. if it wasn't for small business...well there is no country in the world that doesn't have small business so its a bit pointless really. What's the alternative...have the Govt turn into an even bigger employer than it is now? Whoops..been there done that. All business entities pay tax as well so they don't "escape" tax at all. So maybe you want to increase the tax on business?...ok well the unfortunate fact of that is this means less money available in the kitty for the workers. Socialism taken to its extremes doesn't work as evidenced by Russia etc. The best system is the one that encourages and rewards entrepreneurial hard work and provides incentives to its citizens get off their backsides. The Govt. role is to provide the framework for this to happen, collect a % as its "due" and use those funds for infrastructure to support growth. NZ does this pretty well actually and this is readily apparent whenever I visit other countries. So "selfish and scurrilous" is just a ridiculous description. Personally I found that I made more money when I had fewer employees so if I use that as an example, it would seem that those business owners should be congratulated and thanked. Not that everybody understands that of course.
No analysis required Fungus Pudding.

I need only go back a few pages to see the last conversation between you and me on the same topic.

And a few more pages back to see the same again.

Your smoke screen arguments against a CGT didn't stand up then and won't again.

The conversation goes almost exactly as the one above goes. It gets the same response and the same outcome. Want to go there again?

And by the way ... I do know you. I know you well. And most of your scurrilous, selfish kind who believe the only form of tax should be on people who work for wages and salaries while your small businesses are used to escape tax whenever you can.

elZorro
20-06-2014, 04:32 PM
FP, and here I was thinking that you have income from commercial properties. Isn't that a business?

fungus pudding
20-06-2014, 04:35 PM
FP, and here I was thinking that you have income from commercial properties. Isn't that a business?

No. The IRD do not recognise property investment as a business. I think the same applies to shares, but not sure.

I should add that one of the great benefits of this is that I am not required to pay any ACC premiums. I only mention that because it's likely to reduce Belgarion to a blubbering mess.

elZorro
20-06-2014, 05:08 PM
No. The IRD do not recognise property investment as a business. I think the same applies to shares, but not sure.

I should add that one of the great benefits of this is that I am not required to pay any ACC premiums. I only mention that because it's likely to reduce Belgarion to a blubbering mess.

And you don't have any employees either. Of course that is a really stupid idea, employing people.

Major von Tempsky
20-06-2014, 05:13 PM
"Put bluntly ... American made this bed of vipers" - Belge.

You should read a bit of history Belge, the conflict was not caused by Bush(es) but by the great schism in Islam between the Sunnis and Shias, the argument about the succession to Mohammed in the 7th/8th century. The conflict has been occurring and will occur independently of anything the West does or does not do.

The only chance to do something constructive was after Saddam was toppled. At that point Iraq should have been divided with defensible borders between the Kurds in the north, the Sunnis in the west and centre and the Shias in Baghdad south. In fact that is what is now happening whether Obama etc like it or not. But it would have saved countless lives and treasure if it had been done at the end of the 2nd Gulf War. The possibility was raised in a muted sort of way at the time but rejected out of hand by then world leaders without any sensible reason given for rejecting it.
Nouri al Maliki, just doesn't get it, he has a very limited mentality and world vision. His only thought seems to be to become a Shia version of Saddam and alienate the Sunnis and Kurds as much as possible.

fungus pudding
20-06-2014, 05:18 PM
And you don't have any employees either. Of course that is a really stupid idea, employing people.


It certainly is if you do not need to. I haven't got enough work to keep myself busy for more than around an hour a month. I suppose I must be a lot more efficient than many others simply trying to keep the wolf from the door.

Cuzzie
20-06-2014, 05:58 PM
Man I'm busy at the moment trying to run a business and working full time for another org. to boot. I'm doing it for me and my taxes will feed the useless and needy while belg complains it's not good enough. I should work harder to feed more useless lazy buggers. I've just about had enough of your moaning belg to last me a whole year and all in the last 24 hours. Then I think, just let him roll and feel his pain. I'll run with that, but will give you some advice and that is - Labour must look at itself, not blame National for the pathetic results D.C achieves. belg, keep on blaming National, because that wont fix the broken Labour Party. The way I see it, that's a big win, win, win but not for you belg. EZ and belg are part of the very reason Labour is in the crap right now, just look at how they blame National for their lack of popularity and everything else. The Labour Party is total crap, they are the useless party supporting useless and lazy kiwis. One of their favorite words is scab, well that's how I see the loonie left, scabs all of them as they are so negitive geared. Over half the population can't be wrong and that is why your next Govt. will be a National one again. Thank goodness for that too.


belg & EZ, get your laughing gear around that!!!

Sgt Pepper
20-06-2014, 06:13 PM
Cuzzie
dont be so grumpy. Im working so have not got time to post stuff. But got two days off next week and will post some brilliant stuff, which Im sure youll disagree with

elZorro
20-06-2014, 06:50 PM
Cuzzie
dont be so grumpy. Im working so have not got time to post stuff. But got two days off next week and will post some brilliant stuff, which Im sure youll disagree with

Many thanks for that Sgt Pepper. Cuzzie doesn't quite grasp that Labour want to see everyone employed, or doing useful things. Being part of a fairer economy. If that means temporarily helping some out at a difficult time, then that is also OK.

I was graced with a bit of propaganda from Bill English today.


Good afternoon (voter's first name)

New figures out yesterday show our economy grew by 3.8 per cent in the year to March 2014. (and before that it was going backwards)

New Zealand is now the third fastest growing economy in the OECD. (at last something to crow about)

This progress is no accident. National is a united team with a clear plan to build a stronger economy and manage the Government’s finances responsibly. That plan is working. (It should do, with the dairy and logging cheque going up through a happy circumstance, and we waited five years to see it).

Our next challenge is to lock in the gains of the past six years and turn them into more jobs and long-term prosperity for families. (Forget that unemployment was a lot lower under Labour, National is all about reducing jobs and holding down wages)

If we stick to our plan, we can deliver more for families and wages will will keep growing faster than inflation. We can stay in surplus and reduce debt. (The BIGGEST FIB of all, National has brought us all more govt debt and huge deficits for 5 years, while Labour had achieved the opposite)

But a divided Labour-Greens coalition spending money they don’t have would take us down a very different path. (Labour was fully funded the whole time they were in office last time, and grew the tax take. Prove Labour-Greens would be divided)

There are now just three months to go until the election on 20 September and we can’t take anything for granted. Only another strong, stable National Government can keep New Zealand moving in the right direction. (We have been moving in the wrong direction, the stats prove it. Labour/Greens need to get in, if NZ is to go ahead again)

Sincerely

Hon Bill English

PS. Help us tell New Zealand we’re on the right track. Click here to like or share this graphic on Facebook. (And if you do that, you are a fairly big mug for believing all this rubbish).

Cuzzie
20-06-2014, 06:51 PM
Cuzzie
dont be so grumpy. Im working so have not got time to post stuff. But got two days off next week and will post some brilliant stuff, which Im sure youll disagree withSgt Pepper, you are not so one eyed as a couple on here and would love to hear what you have got. Let's hope its positive and factual, not more National did this crap. Talk about Labour and their future for NZ and if it is the good oil, I will congratulate you on your effort. Here is the thing though Sgt Pepper, you know and I know that is just not going to happen. BYW, I like your freestyle writing in your post not. It suits your smartphone, but not here.

Cuzzie
20-06-2014, 06:52 PM
Many thanks for that Sgt Pepper. Cuzzie doesn't quite grasp that Labour want to see everyone employed, or doing useful things. Being part of a fairer economy. If that means temporarily helping some out at a difficult time, then that is also OK.

I was graced with a bit of propaganda from Bill English today. And you don't do propaganda EZ? Thanks for the laugh buddy.

elZorro
20-06-2014, 06:55 PM
And you don't do propaganda EZ? Thanks for the laugh buddy.

Is it propaganda or the truth Cuzzie? Anyway, you haven't had a chance to read it yet. Post back afterwards.

Xerof
20-06-2014, 06:56 PM
Just for a bit of light relief, I see the Green Taliban are up in arms that N Smith is passing a bit of legislation to enable a fraction of the wind-throw native trees on the west coast to be lumbered for fine furniture, jobs for the coast, and about $100m of revenue, instead of letting them rot on the ground. Nick Smith said on the telly that there will still be 95% of the wind throw left to rot and feed all the wormies....

The comment by the Green spokeswoman (I think behind the beard was a woman) was tourists would be upset seeing chainsaws being flung about in our native forests.

FFS - get a life jerks

westerly
20-06-2014, 06:56 PM
While the arguments here concern which party is more at fault over the Chinese businessman and his donations to either party, for me the fact that politicians on both sides appear to be happy to welcome wealthy Asian and other people into the country purely on the size of their bank balance and against the advice of immigration officials is the major concern.It is hard enough to make a miilion in NZ but in Asia it must be a lot more difficult. The fact that the busnessman in focus appears to be buying favours from politicians by donating large sums of money to either party and the parties are happy to accept them is not something I can be comfortable with NZ was once considered corruption free compared with the rest of the world. It appears to no longer be so.

westerly

fungus pudding
20-06-2014, 07:03 PM
While the arguments here concern which party is more at fault over the Chinese businessman and his donations to either party, for me the fact that politicians on both sides appear to be happy to welcome wealthy Asian and other people into the country purely on the size of their bank balance and against the advice of immigration officials is the major concern.It is hard enough to make a miilion in NZ ............

Ever tried?

slimwin
20-06-2014, 07:03 PM
It still is compared to a the rest of the world Westerly. This is an asian way of doing business in any country. Not just here.
Belg. Have a whisky or wine or whatever your poison is.You'll let small mined NZ politics (from both sides) kill you. Shouting down at the opposition has not worked for Labour to change peoples opinions and it wont work on here I'm guessing.

Cuzzie
20-06-2014, 07:11 PM
Just for a bit of light relief, I see the Green Taliban are up in arms that N Smith is passing a bit of legislation to enable a fraction of the wind-throw native trees on the west coast to be lumbered for fine furniture, jobs for the coast, and about $100m of revenue, instead of letting them rot on the ground. Nick Smith said on the telly that there will still be 95% of the wind throw left to rot and feed all the wormies....

The comment by the Green spokeswoman (I think behind the beard was a woman) was tourists would be upset seeing chainsaws being flung about in our native forests.

FFS - get a life jerksThis has always mystified me how Labour back the Greens on the West Coast, stuff up jobs, halt the economy and get voted in every three years. Don't they realise the Carbine is released from rotting trees too. You just can't fix stupid. Good post Xerof.

neopoleII
20-06-2014, 07:42 PM
""What is most frustrating iceman, and a sad indictment of the NZ voting public, yourself included, is that you all lap up the media reports and planted spin as if it were fact and question nothing. You simply take it all as fact ... much like a teenage, schoolyard gossips. A shame.""

instead of pontificating on a website that deals in trading shares which is generally the realm of nat voters.......
why not get in your PAV (ponsonby assault vehicle) even though your a north shore boy...... and educate some of the tens of thousands of labour voters living in south auckland
they might actually listen to you and believe the words you say on top of your soapbox.

when i hear minto gasbagging in media ...... and reading your pontification on this forum...... I wonder who is more smarter?
at least minto gets his word out to those who agree with him,...... as a majority of folks who frequent this site wont be swayed by your 1000s of left wing comments.
10 plus years you have been spouting left wing anti right, anti america, anti god, and anti many other things........ yet live in the middle of gods owns richest suburbs,
with a supposed top 5% salary and investment strategy..........

im just a simple guy......... but you would be better off spending your time not on this site.......... 1000s of posts....... but going to the south auckland suburbs and educating the folks there about how bad the current government is.
that way..... you would earn respect as you put your foot where your mouth is......(or whatever that saying is...... positive saying)

having said all the above......

I respect you a hell of alot!!...... I know you can out talk me, out think me, and out speculate me......
you a richer than me, and probably have a better life than me........

but you seem to be lost somehow........
and some of the stuff you write....... or write about is truly worrying.
maybe you need to get in car and spend a week driving around to places that you normally wouldnt go to and see what
is happening in this land of ours.

My missus has...... over the 7 years that i have know her and fallen in love with..... ""encouraged" me to take drives around NZ and see NZ from a different point of view.
Which is why I dont vote from my pocket anymore...... (from a different post)

ps....
she earns $15 an hour and has a car in her own name...... thats it
yet she is rich way beyond me in so many way........
and I have a great career and a good size farm in south aucks.

yet it seems you have even more than that and still you come across to many readers as a lost....... or troubled soul.

I respect you belg...... but feel you need a reality check.

I hope you dont take offence...... yet it is a pointed statement at you.
The funny/ wierd/ strange ....... maybe good...... thing..... you have also helped me LOOK at things differently.

cheers

blackcap
20-06-2014, 07:45 PM
An extract from Team America World Police that could be termed apt:

"We are dicks, were reckless arrogant stupid dicks, and the liberal left are pussys. And the greens are just arseholes. Pussys don’t like dicks because pussys get fcuked by dicks but dicks also fcuk arseholes. Arseholes who just want to siht on everything. Pussys may think they can deal with arseholes their way but the only thing that can fcuk an arsehole is a dick with some balls. The problem with dicks is sometimes they fcuk too much or fcuk when it isn’t appropriate. And it takes a pussy to show him that. But sometimes pussys get so full of ****e they become arseholes themselves because pussys are only an inch and a half away from arseholes. I don’t know much in this crazy crazy world but I do know that if you don’t let us fcuk these arseholes we are going to have our dicks and pussys all covered in ****e."

**** = the word beginning with s that mean poo.

Cuzzie
20-06-2014, 07:53 PM
Is it propaganda or the truth Cuzzie? Anyway, you haven't had a chance to read it yet. Post back afterwards.Through your rose tinted glasses EZ, Labour is 100% the truth and National is 100% propaganda. Why then is Labour polling so low and National so high. Are you saying Kiwis are mostly thick, because that's what you are implying. Kiwis are smart and that is the Key, those who are not so sharp at the pointy end ponder their next attack commonly known as propaganda. Who is D.Cs puppet master? The propaganda king himself - Matt McCarten FFS.:eek2:

Remember this: A secret memo on secret trusts (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11216531) I've posted it three times now and no response from any loonies. That's a propaganda king in action EZ, no need for that crap from National, they just stick to the proven - you know - results. Results, that's something Labour only dream about. Keep dreaming - keep dreaming.

neopoleII
20-06-2014, 08:01 PM
team america puppet movie...... was on tv wendesday nite, missus bought me the movie on TM and was delivered today....... lots of laughs and will watch again tonite.
missus really liked the puppet sex scene...... hope to copy the moves tonite!!
""" no strings attached""

elZorro
20-06-2014, 08:01 PM
Through your rose tinted glasses EZ, Labour is 100% the truth and National is 100% propaganda. Why then is Labour polling so low and National so high. Are you saying Kiwis are mostly thick, because that's what you are implying. Kiwis are smart and that is the Key, those who are not so sharp at the pointy end ponder their next attack commonly known as propaganda. Who is D.Cs puppet master? The propaganda king himself - Matt McCarten FFS.:eek2:

Remember this: A secret memo on secret trusts (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11216531) I've posted it three times now and no response from any loonies. That's a propaganda king in action EZ, no need for that crap from National, they just stick to the proven - you know - results. Results, that's something Labour only dream about. Keep dreaming - keep dreaming.

We didn't reply because it was such a weak article.

Cuzzie
20-06-2014, 08:07 PM
We didn't reply because it was such a weak article.Well then do "we" think Labour is doing a good job right now then?

elZorro
20-06-2014, 08:13 PM
Well then do "we" think Labour is doing a good job right now then?

Yes, Labour and the Greens have released some terrific policies in the last few weeks. National would like voters to forget about those, because they don't have much insight to offer in return. Guffaw guffaw..they don't have to, according to them.

Have a look at this insight into dirty practices by National.
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/06/20/cunliffe-cant-remember-an-11-year-old-letter-and-has-to-resign-but-woodhouse-cant-remember-a-6-week-old-letter-he-told-prime-minister-about-and-isnt-resigning/

Cuzzie
20-06-2014, 08:29 PM
Yes, Labour and the Greens have released some terrific policies in the last few weeks. National would like voters to forget about those, because they don't have much insight to offer in return. Guffaw guffaw..they don't have to, according to them.

Have a look at this insight into dirty practices by National.
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/06/20/cunliffe-cant-remember-an-11-year-old-letter-and-has-to-resign-but-woodhouse-cant-remember-a-6-week-old-letter-he-told-prime-minister-about-and-isnt-resigning/Both eyes closed will not give you vision grasshopper (EZ). I was never going to read your link and you were never going to take my advice.

So it's me celebrating in three months and it's you coughing up 1K. I wonder who's right and who is wrong? I wonder if EZ will ever work that out. Old dogs - new tricks and all that, there is no fool like an old fool. If National ever ended up where Labour finds itself right now - I'd jump & that's the difference between you & me right now. Why don't you get angry at your team letting you down instead of going down with the ship and blaming others for your captain hitting the rocks?

winner69
21-06-2014, 10:42 AM
Doesn't seem the best way to get the best people in your Parliamentary team

Rather like balancing the deck chairs on the Titanic to get the right gender / ethnicity balance

westerly
21-06-2014, 10:49 AM
Both eyes closed will not give you vision grasshopper (EZ). I was never going to read your link and you were never going to take my advice.

So it's me celebrating in three months and it's you coughing up 1K. I wonder who's right and who is wrong? I wonder if EZ will ever work that out. Old dogs - new tricks and all that, there is no fool like an old fool. If National ever ended up where Labour finds itself right now - I'd jump & that's the difference between you & me right now. Why don't you get angry at your team letting you down instead of going down with the ship and blaming others for your captain hitting the rocks?

In 2002 National got 20% of the vote. You must have climbed back on board. A very wet kung fu master

westerly

Cuzzie
21-06-2014, 04:48 PM
In 2002 National got 20% of the vote. You must have climbed back on board. A very wet kung fu master

westerlyWhat makes you think Labour will get more the 20% this time around Kemo-sabe?

blackcap
22-06-2014, 07:05 AM
Why oh why did you just not declare this Labour....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279089

iceman
22-06-2014, 07:06 AM
What makes you think Labour will get more the 20% this time around Kemo-sabe?


Unlikely after the latest revelations by the "right wing foreign owned ba..ards" at the Herald.
Labour is unbelievably hypocritical. Obviously they sold this guy his residency granted by Damian O'Çonnor.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279089

Cuzzie
22-06-2014, 07:59 AM
Labour..... Going - Going

Gone!!!:p

fungus pudding
22-06-2014, 08:18 AM
Labour..... Going - Going

Gone!!!:p

Hardly. This won't affect them at all. They'll still manage to poll over 20% :D

Cuzzie
22-06-2014, 08:36 AM
Hardly. This won't affect them at all. They'll still manage to poll over 20% :D:eek2: LOL.

Sgt Pepper
22-06-2014, 09:39 AM
Hardly. This won't affect them at all. They'll still manage to poll over 20% :D

That's right FP. People who are interested in Politics, as we all are on this site, should recall that National achieved 26% in 2002 yet they survived and thrived. Labour will do the same. One would be extremely foolish to say we will never see a Social Democratic government in NZ again. Every day in power is a day closer to your demise, no one knows what form it will take. However the big risks for continual National Government are as follows
1. The loss of John Key
2 . Media turns against an incumbent government- a much underrated risk for any government in my opinion.
3.the TFAC factor Time For A Change
4.Economic cycle reverse.
5. Internal party friction

fungus pudding
22-06-2014, 09:50 AM
That's right FP. People who are interested in Politics, as we all are on this site, should recall that National achieved 26% in 2002 yet they survived and thrived. Labour will do the same. One would be extremely foolish to say we will never see a Social Democratic government in NZ again. Every day in power is a day closer to your demise, no one knows what form it will take. However the big risks for continual National Government are as follows
1. The loss of John Key
2 . Media turns against an incumbent government- a much underrated risk for any government in my opinion.
3.the TFAC factor Time For A Change
4.Economic cycle reverse.
5. Internal party friction


You have managed a rather lengthy post which incredibly doesn't tell anyone anything they don't already know,, assuming they have attained the age of three or more.

Sgt Pepper
22-06-2014, 12:18 PM
You have managed a rather lengthy post which incredibly doesn't tell anyone anything they don't already know,, assuming they have attained the age of three or more.

Oh my Goodness FP
That was a rather terse, grumpy comment for you, I was actually supportive of your observation, sorry I didn't meet your expectations

fungus pudding
22-06-2014, 01:09 PM
Oh my Goodness FP
That was a rather terse, grumpy comment for you, I was actually supportive of your observation, sorry I didn't meet your expectations

I did not intend to sound terse or grumpy. I was simply pointing out that we all know governments change from time to time, and your post added nothing. 'The pendulum swings'. Otherwise there would be little point in holding elections.

Sgt Pepper
22-06-2014, 01:16 PM
I did not intend to sound terse or grumpy. I was simply pointing out that we all know governments change from time to time, and your post added nothing. 'The pendulum swings'. Otherwise there would be little point in holding elections.

Thanks FP,

craic
22-06-2014, 05:34 PM
it's nice to be here in Brisbane, enjoying the weather - 25 deg - and the food and the ambience of a large city where everyone seems to be enjoying life - but - there is still the anti- govt. anger and guess what? -it over Chinese buying real estate that was not marketed to locals and several other points that might be nz news. However, this govt. appears unpopular to a degree that must make them seriously envious of John Key.

iceman
22-06-2014, 07:20 PM
That's right FP. People who are interested in Politics, as we all are on this site, should recall that National achieved 26% in 2002 yet they survived and thrived. Labour will do the same. One would be extremely foolish to say we will never see a Social Democratic government in NZ again.

Some would aargue we have a Social democratic Government in NZ right now ;)

craic your reports from Brisbane simply can not be true. They have CGT over there and apparently much stricter rules on foreigners buying residential property so all honky dory !

elZorro
22-06-2014, 07:28 PM
Some would aargue we have a Social democratic Government in NZ right now ;)

craic your reports from Brisbane simply can not be true. They have CGT over there and apparently much stricter rules on foreigners buying residential property so all honky dory !

Nothing to do with that, it'll be about fewer jobs being available to Australians, after a change to more Neo-liberal policies. If they step further away from carefully targeted support for strategic jobs and capability, it'll get worse over time. The fact is that neoliberal policies have not worked better than social democratic policies in any of the countries it has been tried in, and NZ has first-hand experience of that. We were the subjects of the first experiment on an entire country, started in 1984.

slimwin
22-06-2014, 09:01 PM
Ray White surfers has just finished a property expo in Hong kong. Lots of interest apparently.

iceman
22-06-2014, 10:17 PM
Nothing to do with that, it'll be about fewer jobs being available to Australians, after a change to more Neo-liberal policies. If they step further away from carefully targeted support for strategic jobs and capability, it'll get worse over time. The fact is that neoliberal policies have not worked better than social democratic policies in any of the countries it has been tried in, and NZ has first-hand experience of that. We were the subjects of the first experiment on an entire country, started in 1984.

You are being a bit disingenuous there EZ. You know full well that NZ Labour has proposed policies to introduce CGT and restrictions on immigration. They have clearly tied these policies to property demand and residential property valuation inflation.
Australia is proof that both policies have failed to stem increases in house prices to any measurable degree !

elZorro
22-06-2014, 10:29 PM
You are being a bit disingenuous there EZ. You know full well that NZ Labour has proposed policies to introduce CGT and restrictions on immigration. They have clearly tied these policies to property demand and residential property valuation inflation.
Australia is proof that both policies have failed to stem increases in house prices to any measurable degree !

But how can you be sure that if these measures like CGT were not in place, that it would be the same? I argue it would be worse. Labour's homebuild policy will do a lot more for the economy, and provide a lot of lower priced houses where they are needed.

Meanwhile it's tough in the provinces, some of them anyway (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/10184530/Cities-prosper-while-regions-struggle). Just started reading "Inequality, A New Zealand Crisis".

More waking up to a fragile manufacturing sector.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/agribusiness/10185834/Vulnerable-more-eggs-in-fewer-export-baskets

Cuzzie
23-06-2014, 07:53 AM
Meanwhile - Statistics NZ said on Thursday that New Zealand's gross domestic product grew by 1 per cent over the March quarter and by 3.3 per cent over the March year.
"New Zealand is still rocking. More here. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11279421) Real stats not Labour Bloggers theories or excuses.

That happens by good management, not luck. Thank Goodness for National.:)

Sgt Pepper
23-06-2014, 09:19 AM
Some would aargue we have a Social democratic Government in NZ right now ;)

craic your reports from Brisbane simply can not be true. They have CGT over there and apparently much stricter rules on foreigners buying residential property so all honky dory !

Iceman

Interested in your observation that we have in effect a Social Democrat government now. Now of course JK would retort that he is just being pragmatic, as, the argument goes, a number of policies which are expensive are in effect embedded and that politicians tamper with them at their peril. Notwithstanding this it raises some potentially difficult issues for the government.

Will we see more assertive push back from influential National Party members who may not be happy with having a default Social Democratic government, especially if they perceive this third term is their only chance to roll back some of the large expensive policies, i.e WFF, 20 hours Free early child care, extensions to paid parental leave. etc etc. Will they find it more difficult to raise funds from previously generous benefactors who may want to see much more of their policy implemented for their support than just "National in power and keeping Labour out". I could be wrong, but I see some serious behind the scenes difficulties arising trying to reconcile John Keys " pragmatism" (i.e. I do whatever it takes and spend whatever it takes to stay in power and cement my legacy). All fine when an economy is expanding and government revenues increasing but when the current economic expansion stagnates and then reverses, as all cycles do, the gloves will come off and they may find that many of Nationals influential supporters with deep pockets may all of a sudden have short arms.

slimwin
23-06-2014, 04:44 PM
I doubt it. They haven't reacted in the last six years.

Sgt Pepper
23-06-2014, 05:50 PM
I doubt it. They haven't reacted in the last six years.S

So I guess you may as well donate equally to both parties,

elZorro
23-06-2014, 06:15 PM
A bit of background about the IPSOS polls. Labour needs to show voters that they are a real option. Labour campaigners know that already.

http://www.thepoliticalscientist.org/the-real-story-in-the-fairfax-polls/

iceman
23-06-2014, 08:31 PM
S

So I guess you may as well donate equally to both parties,

Like Mr Liu. He donated to both main parties, just quite a bit more to Labour :ohmy:

elZorro
23-06-2014, 08:45 PM
Like Mr Liu. He donated to both main parties, just quite a bit more to Labour :ohmy:

Iceman, last I heard there is no proof of a donation to Labour by Liu anywhere near that size. On the day Mr Liu mentions, no fundraising was carried out. Surely if $100k was paid over for one bottle of wine, there would have been some memory of the event. Entire fundraisers for Labour don't raise that kind of money. It wasn't a National party event, after all.

But here's the cunning plan. Real or not, here we are blogging about it. Crosby-Textor and National are flinging mud to see if any of it sticks. That's all, but it's a dirty trick.

fungus pudding
24-06-2014, 01:15 AM
Iceman, last I heard there is no proof of a donation to Labour by Liu anywhere near that size. On the day Mr Liu mentions, no fundraising was carried out. Surely if $100k was paid over for one bottle of wine, there would have been some memory of the event. Entire fundraisers for Labour don't raise that kind of money. It wasn't a National party event, after all.

But here's the cunning plan. Real or not, here we are blogging about it. Crosby-Textor and National are flinging mud to see if any of it sticks. That's all, but it's a dirty trick.

The first part of your post is no doubt accurate. I think Liu is away with the fairies but your last paragraph is also way off beam. Labour has been stirring for months and really brought this on themselves. Mallard in particular has been quite despicable on occasions.

iceman
24-06-2014, 06:07 AM
The first part of your post is no doubt accurate. I think Liu is away with the fairies but your last paragraph is also way off beam. Labour has been stirring for months and really brought this on themselves. Mallard in particular has been quite despicable on occasions.

Very true FP.
But I do also note that a Herald Editorial says they have seen a signed affidavit from Mr Liu.
EZ, before you write this whole saga off, lets wait for this thing to play out. It is very clear that Labour has got lots of dirty laundry that is yet to be aired !
Sad it has come to this but like FP correctly points out, Labour brought this on themselves when they started talking about corruption !

elZorro
24-06-2014, 06:38 AM
Very true FP.
But I do also note that a Herald Editorial says they have seen a signed affidavit from Mr Liu.
EZ, before you write this whole saga off, lets wait for this thing to play out. It is very clear that Labour has got lots of dirty laundry that is yet to be aired !
Sad it has come to this but like FP correctly points out, Labour brought this on themselves when they started talking about corruption !

FP and Iceman, yes I'm happy to wait and see what happens. It could turn in Labour's favour of course.

Google runs a highly profitable business here in NZ. With revenue ramping up, they've conspired to offshore most of the income through fees, and end up paying under $300,000 of tax here. Legal under the current system, but Labour would work on that.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/google-pays-227074-tax-new-zealand-md-158111

On our rock-star economy, Liam Dann. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business-editors-picks/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501981&objectid=11279466)

iceman
24-06-2014, 06:49 AM
FP and Iceman, yes I'm happy to wait and see what happens. It could turn in Labour's favour of course.

Google runs a highly profitable business here in NZ. With revenue ramping up, they've conspired to offshore most of the income through fees, and end up paying under $300,000 of tax here. Legal under the current system, but Labour would work on that.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/google-pays-227074-tax-new-zealand-md-158111

On our rock-star economy, Liam Dann. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business-editors-picks/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501981&objectid=11279466)

Yes EZ it is a really difficult and unfair issue this multinational tax avoidance. It is not something that NZ will sort out on their own, whether Governed by Labour or National. It will take a concerted international effort lead by the big boys, if there is going to be any chance of making this fairer. I hope some sort of solution will be found.

Sgt Pepper
24-06-2014, 08:09 AM
Like Mr Liu. He donated to both main parties, just quite a bit more to Labour :ohmy:

Evidence??? Mr Liu has a signed affidavit, but disclosed no other details, ie cheque or transaction number. Labour is trawling its records and can find no record to date. Someone is wrong

fungus pudding
24-06-2014, 08:15 AM
FP and Iceman, yes I'm happy to wait and see what happens. It could turn in Labour's favour of course.

Google runs a highly profitable business here in NZ. With revenue ramping up, they've conspired to offshore most of the income through fees, and end up paying under $300,000 of tax here. Legal under the current system, but Labour would work on that.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/google-pays-227074-tax-new-zealand-md-158111

On our rock-star economy, Liam Dann. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business-editors-picks/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501981&objectid=11279466)


Do you think National, the IRD as well as many other counties are ignoring this? It is a problem for many countries and it is not easy to find a solution. Labour, with their deadbeat finance spokesperson, a failed businessman with a bad reputation and a pile of enemies, will not solve this in spite of all the piss and wind they produce.

Sgt Pepper
24-06-2014, 08:26 AM
Do you think National, the IRD as well as many other counties are ignoring this? It is a problem for many countries and it is not easy to find a solution. Labour, with their deadbeat finance spokesperson, a failed businessman with a bad reputation and a pile of enemies, will not solve this in spite of all the piss and wind they produce.

FP
" failed businessman with a bad reputation and a pile of enemies" Im curious, tell me more

fungus pudding
24-06-2014, 08:37 AM
FP
" failed businessman with a bad reputation and a pile of enemies" Im curious, tell me more

His past is well known. But don't ask me - ask those with burnt fingers from his property development venture.

iceman
24-06-2014, 09:52 AM
Evidence??? Mr Liu has a signed affidavit, but disclosed no other details, ie cheque or transaction number. Labour is trawling its records and can find no record to date. Someone is wrong

Like you and other posters, we are all basing all comments about this matter on what we read and hear. A signed or sworn affidavit is a serious document in my books and in a powerful political situation like this one, I have to assume such a document is based on facts, until proven otherwise. We will just have to wait and see how this distraction plays out. One thing is for sure, there will be no winners.

BIRMANBOY
24-06-2014, 10:43 AM
They might be winding you up Belg. As a small business owner for many years with an extremely competent chartered accountant, I can assure you there is no legal way of either "gaming or milking" the system. I'm sure that there are illegal ways but any individual or entity trying to do this runs huge risks and 99.9% of accountants will actively discourage any activities in this vein. Do some small business try? Probably but not many and I would guess that the vast amount of taxpayer fraud is from individuals operating in the "black economy" and people double dipping with unpaid work and welfare fraud. The fact that small business are generally complex and require an accountant to do the taxes means that a vast majority will toe the IRD line because the accountant is keeping an eye on problem areas. As a small business owner, with your livelihood and your business viability and the responsibility of keeping people employed on the line....a vast majority of small business will be oriented to doing the right thing. The IRD has the resources to extract the biggest bang for the buck so you can bet that if "small business" fraud or "milking" was an issue, then they would deal to it. I'm afraid its just an other urban myth. I would ask your two sources to point out in detail where this milking is occurring. Legal deductions that are a cost of doing business obviously cannot be defined as a rort since they have passed the acid test of political (multi party) scrutiny
And BB you've missed the point. Salary and wage earners have few options reduce their tax bills. However, and this is from two senior accountant (in their 50s), "small business owners are both milking and gaming the system and IRD just doesn't have the resources to clamp down on them".

fungus pudding
24-06-2014, 11:23 AM
Nope. They're pissed off as they tell their clients they won't do something (e.g. two travel expenses when an attached receipt for petrol shows the two jobs were side by side with the fill in between), the client wants them to do and if they don't, the client finds another "accountant" that will.



They are definitely winding you up. No accountant would work through their clients' jobs like that. They would look at the total of petrol for the period, and claim the total, or apportion it in some cases.

Harvey Specter
24-06-2014, 11:47 AM
They would look at the total of petrol for the period, and claim the total, or apportion it in some cases.I also wonder how many SME accountants would raise whether a salary of $60k to the spouse was really justified considering they didn't actually do any work for the business (or at all). Income splitting at its best.

fungus pudding
24-06-2014, 11:49 AM
Further doubting your credibility FP ... Many accounting systems automatically throw up these sort of discrepancies in this digital age. The accountants have hundreds of these sorts of rules written into their systems as it keeps their professional indemnity premiums lower.

But address the issue please ... Can salary and wage earners so this? No they can't!

Accountants do not work like that. Your imagination is running wild. However no doubt some self employed use their vehicles for a bit of private use. No doubt some salary and wage earners use work vehicles for unauthorised purposes, do various private errands while doing other jobs with the vehicle, pinch stationery from the office, make private phone calls on the business phone, photocopy things at work without telling the IRD. All such things deprive the IRD as well as the boss so it's doubly bad. Probably the biggest tax dodgers are the one-man-band tradesmen and home service men who do the odd-job and do not declare it. This apparently is often at the instigation of the client. The IRD have the odd drive on this but the only way to stop it is to do away with taxing income (or substantially reduce it) and have a higher consumption tax like GST.

BIRMANBOY
24-06-2014, 11:57 AM
This is referred to as "generalizing from the particular" belg. Making broad sweeping statements from a few scraps. Akin to saying all rugby players are boofheads just because there are a few idiots. There will always be a few debateable or just wrong claims. You have to remember that most normal owners wont run the risk of a possible audit for the sake of a couple of hundred dollars saved. Audits are costly, stressful and incredibly time consuming. Again if this was a major issue The IRD would be all over it.....they don't..so guess what ..it isn't. As far as finding a "tame" accountant...I have more respect for that profession than you obviously. Also accountants will value their good name/reputation with the IRD and would just be stupid to endanger that for the sake of pacifying a customer. Your major point seems to be one of envy....i.e. salary and wage earners don't have the luxury of claiming similar deductions that business owners can. Back to my main point which is the IRD over a long period of time and countless political tinkering and law changing has decided that this is the way it is. I suggest that if you feel hard done by you could start your own business, employ some staff and "see how the other half lives". The perceived greener grass that you are suggesting small business is greedily consuming is just a figment of your imagination.
Nope. They're pissed off as they tell their clients they won't do something (e.g. two travel expenses when an attached receipt for petrol shows the two jobs were side by side with the fill in between), the client wants them to do and if they don't, the client finds another "accountant" that will.



Sorry I didn't read any further than this BB as your credibility just dived!

Penny and Hooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_%26_Hooper_case)

And it was going on for many years! Can Salary and Wage earners do that? Nope.

blackcap
24-06-2014, 12:25 PM
Credibility destroyed.

Hi Belg, I do work as an accountant for a few SME's and can tell you I do not work like you have been portraying. There will always be a rotten apple or two in every profession but for the most things are done above board.

BIRMANBOY
24-06-2014, 01:50 PM
Belg don't throw the toys out of the cot.....what assertions have I made about you? Simply responding to your comments which you started off by saying that business owners were selfish, scurrilous and ripping the system off. Keep on subject please and don't divert from the issue by introducing non relative bits. I would be crushed if you give me negative rep by the way:( :). Anyway this small business BS seems to have taken away from the politics so I don't want to hijack the thread. I still love you even when you get hyped.
By golly BB you make a huge number of assertions about who I am, what I have done and, most amazingly, how I feel. Clearly you've the view that making unfounded assertions as if they were fact is the best way to win an argument.

Not engaging any further BB if that is the way you're going to behave.

iceman
24-06-2014, 06:41 PM
By golly BB you make a huge number of assertions about who I am, what I have done and, most amazingly, how I feel. Clearly you've the view that making unfounded assertions as if they were fact is the best way to win an argument.

Not engaging any further BB if that is the way you're going to behave.

This is an absolute classic from someone who in recent days spent almost a whole day personally attacking anyone that had a view different to yours.
Especially so since BB didn´t really make any assertions about you at all :D

neopoleII
24-06-2014, 07:17 PM
""The mud stuck.

I was lunching with about 20 imaginary people yesterday and they, without exception, believed what I read to them by the shills in the NZ Herald's Political section.

I had to point them at the Business section where Fran O'Sullivan sets the record straight, chastising the NZ Herald shills at the same time.

Fran O'Sullivan: Unfounded resignation calls should be far from Cunliffe's mind

The howls of outrage I heard in my head were pretty vociferous and the NZ Herald lost no readers and the National party have lost All my swing votes. The phase "not in NZ" was mentioned quite a few times. quite a few times.quite a few times.quite a few times.quite a few times.......

sorry that was mean..... but it is the way I read it.
I think belg you need to read the last several weeks of posts you have written and think about what it is your writing and who you are directing to or at.
there is a link on the herald about stress..... you need to de stress and spend less time on the computer..... therefore we can once again read your posts without cringing, which is what is happening now........ you are and have been a valued and prolific poster for many years..... but it seems the value of your posts is diminishing while the prolification is increasing.

cheers

elZorro
24-06-2014, 08:32 PM
The mud shouldn't stick, if it's make-believe.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279513

Back to real policy.


Labour will:

• back Kiwi businesses by ensuring that government agencies buy more Kiwi-made products, keeping thousands of jobs in New Zealand;

• support hi-tech manufacturing through accelerated depreciation;
• strengthen innovation, including through research and development tax credits;
• reform monetary policy to achieve a fairer and more stable exchange rate to give manufacturers a chance in international markets;
• change the tax settings to direct more capital investment into the productive economy, rather than speculation in housing;
• introduce measures to increase the national savings pool and improve access to capital for businesses;
• contain or reduce structural costs to businesses, starting with electricity prices;
• promote growth in specific sectors through Labour’s Economic Upgrade policies, including timber processing;
• work to lower unnecessary compliance costs for businesses where consistent with workers’ rights, environmental standards, and quality assurance;
• give manufacturers a stronger voice in trade negotiations;
• recognise manufacturing’s role in creating jobs and adding value in national, regional, and industry development policies.
• A healthy, growing export manufacturing sector is vital to building a wealthy New Zealand and creating well-paying jobs for our people.
When the current government came to power, manufacturing was New Zealand’s largest employer. Now, it’s the third. Since mid-2008, 42,000 manufacturing jobs have been lost.

Six years later, there is no sign of a recovery in manufacturing employment – factories are still closing. There are 1,700 fewer manufacturing companies than in 2008.
Since mid-2008, annual manufactured exports have fallen by $2.6 billion, or 19%, after inflation.
We’re exporting more of our raw commodities overseas, rather than manufacturing them into value-added products here in New Zealand.
Manufacturing is the only major sector of the economy that hasn’t yet recovered to its pre-recession level of output.

The regions that have been hardest hit by the decline in manufacturing since 2008 are also the ones with the lowest rates of growth.
The Government’s lack of attention to export manufacturing is holding New Zealand back and denying Kiwis jobs.
The Parliamentary Inquiry into Manufacturing
revealed the causes of these serious problems:
• An over-valued currency, contributed to by out-dated, ideologically-driven monetary policy,
• Tax policy settings that favour investing in property speculation rather than the productive economy,
• Government policy that is at best indifferent and, at worst, hostile to manufacturing,
• Ministers and officials who refuse to acknowledge there’s a problem.
Tackling these issues and getting manufacturing growing again will mean higher export receipts, a smaller current account deficit, less international debt, more jobs, and higher wages for New Zealanders.

elZorro
25-06-2014, 08:00 AM
Yes EZ it is a really difficult and unfair issue this multinational tax avoidance. It is not something that NZ will sort out on their own, whether Governed by Labour or National. It will take a concerted international effort lead by the big boys, if there is going to be any chance of making this fairer. I hope some sort of solution will be found.

Labour are bringing out new policy on the issue today. Why not confront it head on?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11280992

fungus pudding
25-06-2014, 08:24 AM
Labour are bringing out new policy on the issue today. Why not confront it head on?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11280992


This should be good for a laugh!

blackcap
25-06-2014, 08:39 AM
Labour are bringing out new policy on the issue today. Why not confront it head on?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11280992

Really they would ban Facebook in this country? How would they do that? Make a "NZ firewall"... Oh no I was too soon, they retracted that. Hmmm would be a funny policy if they were considering banning facebook. Talk about alienating voters.

fungus pudding
25-06-2014, 09:56 AM
Really they would ban Facebook in this country? How would they do that? Make a "NZ firewall"... Oh no I was too soon, they retracted that. Hmmm would be a funny policy if they were considering banning facebook. Talk about alienating voters.

Kim Dot Com will probably be advising them on this in return for appointing Laila Harre as Minister of Finance, and Harawira minister of Justice if they can cobble together some sort of govt. with Winston First and The Kermit party after the election.

elZorro
25-06-2014, 11:40 AM
Kim Dot Com will probably be advising them on this in return for appointing Laila Harre as Minister of Finance, and Harawira minister of Justice if they can cobble together some sort of govt. with Winston First and The Kermit party after the election.

Running scared, FP?

fungus pudding
25-06-2014, 11:56 AM
Running scared, FP?

Not at all. I don't think they'll get in anyway, and it won't matter to me if they do, although I would feel sorry about the damage to the country. The next govt. will be National with NZ First. A few baubles in Winston first's direction and hey-presto, one new govt. which at least will be better than Cunliffe and crowd.

P.S. Still waiting for this amazing plan to scuttle international companies who choose to pay tax where it is most favourable to do so, but all we've heard so far is some short sighted plan to raise income tax on rich pricks.
Apparently anyone earning over 150k is a rich prick who should be punished. The Civilian party have a better proposal than that!

Sgt Pepper
25-06-2014, 07:00 PM
Not at all. I don't think they'll get in anyway, and it won't matter to me if they do, although I would feel sorry about the damage to the country. The next govt. will be National with NZ First. A few baubles in Winston first's direction and hey-presto, one new govt. which at least will be better than Cunliffe and crowd.

P.S. Still waiting for this amazing plan to scuttle international companies who choose to pay tax where it is most favourable to do so, but all we've heard so far is some short sighted plan to raise income tax on rich pricks.
Apparently anyone earning over 150k is a rich prick who should be punished. The Civilian party have a better proposal than that!

FP
Specifically what economic and social horrors await us if we were to wake up the day after a general election and the masses had elected a Labour administration?

elZorro
25-06-2014, 07:41 PM
FP
Specifically what economic and social horrors await us if we were to wake up the day after a general election and the masses had elected a Labour administration?

CGT? No repatriation clause? Green MPs? Cheaper housing stock? The flipside is that there will be a stronger retail sector FP..

fungus pudding
25-06-2014, 09:55 PM
CGT? No repatriation clause? Green MPs? Cheaper housing stock? The flipside is that there will be a stronger retail sector FP..

For a start house prices will not be lower because of GST.
The world will tick on but NZ will have the handbrake pulled on a couple of notches. Still - it won't happen, so nothing to worry about.

elZorro
26-06-2014, 06:11 AM
For a start house prices will not be lower because of GST.
The world will tick on but NZ will have the handbrake pulled on a couple of notches. Still - it won't happen, so nothing to worry about.

FP, the handbrake is on right now. If we weren't exporting desiccated cow's milk and pine logs at higher prices than normal, we'd be in big trouble.

CGT should pull back house prices a bit, or at least slow the rate of increase. The Kiwibuild program will have a lot more of an effect in Auckland.

Is this the item you were offended by?

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/labour-promises-tax-hikes-high-income-earners-158236

See comments at the end of this National-friendly article. I think the top tax rate will only apply to earnings above $150,000 for each person. 36% sounds fair. And the tax rate for trusts is to be moved up under Labour, also fair. If the top 2% of income earners pay say 22% of all tax (and we'd need to check they don't mean just income tax) then surely they also have over 22% of the wealth too.

Mr Liu has gone quiet over the imaginary $100k wine issue, as has Mr Key.

Cuzzie
26-06-2014, 07:27 AM
Mr Liu has gone quiet over the imaginary $100k wine issue, as has Mr Key.
No he hasn't read this: Liu: $100k not just for wine (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11281832) That explains that then. What the article does not explain is Rick Barker's & David Cunliffe's memory lapse.

The Herald last week revealed Cunliffe wrote a letter for Liu's residency application, despite Cunliffe's previous denials, and also Mr Barker's dinner with Liu on the Yangtze River after Rick Barker said he hardly knew the guy. Does Labour breed pinocchios or something?

fungus pudding
26-06-2014, 07:33 AM
FP, the handbrake is on right now. If we weren't exporting desiccated cow's milk and pine logs at higher prices than normal, we'd be in big trouble.

CGT should pull back house prices a bit, or at least slow the rate of increase. The Kiwibuild program will have a lot more of an effect in Auckland.

Is this the item you were offended by?

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/labour-promises-tax-hikes-high-income-earners-158236

See comments at the end of this National-friendly article. I think the top tax rate will only apply to earnings above $150,000 for each person. 36% sounds fair. And the tax rate for trusts is to be moved up under Labour, also fair. If the top 2% of income earners pay say 22% of all tax (and we'd need to check they don't mean just income tax) then surely they also have over 22% of the wealth too.

Mr Liu has gone quiet over the imaginary $100k wine issue, as has Mr Key.

I wasn't aware that I was offended by anything, but if I am it is your blinkered view that everything Labour does or says is fine, but everything National says or does is wrong. Neither party has a monopoly on good ideas, or bad. Your posts are never objective. Look at policies - not parties. I bet you continued to vote Labour through the eighties when they introduced market policies, because 'it was Labour, therefore good'. It is interesting to see current Labour appear to have learnt that the only advantage of high income tax is to appease the jealous, hence dropping to 36% rather than the previously proposed 39%. That's still a backward step, but not as damaging to the economy.
If you think CGT will lower house prices have a look at Rowling's spec tax. and what it did to prices. I've always been grateful to Rowling - a complete fool who gave me a wonderful start in the commercial world. However I am not against CGT provided it is properly designed. The devil will be in the detail.
And yes, as I have said before, Liu is a complete ****er.

elZorro
26-06-2014, 07:34 AM
No he hasn't read this: Liu: $100k not just for wine (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11281832) That explains that then. What the article does not explain is Rick Barker's & David Cunliffe's memory lapse.

The Herald last week revealed Cunliffe wrote a letter for Liu's residency application, despite Cunliffe's previous denials, and also Mr Barker's dinner with Liu on the Yangtze River after Rick Barker said he hardly knew the guy. Does Labour breed pinocchios or something?

See what I mean? No spelling mistakes. So are we to now believe there were instead $100k in total of smaller anonymous donations from Mr. Liu? Sure.

Harvey Specter
26-06-2014, 08:01 AM
See comments at the end of this National-friendly article. I think the top tax rate will only apply to earnings above $150,000 for each person. 36% sounds fair. And the tax rate for trusts is to be moved up under Labour, also fair. If the top 2% of income earners pay say 22% of all tax (and we'd need to check they don't mean just income tax) then surely they also have over 22% of the wealth too.All this will do is get people to do a bit more structure, though it will be hard to get around tax avoidance arguments.

I hope you have all been sensible like me and have set up your investments in a company. My prediction is that for the rest of my lifetime, the company tax rate will be significantly less that the top marginal tax rate.

blackcap
26-06-2014, 09:25 AM
Snow White, Superman and Pinocchio were walking together along the road when
they came across a beauty contest.

"I think that I will enter this" says
Snow White

Sometime later she comes back looking very pleased with
herself and proudly announced that she had won first prize.

The three
companions then continue on their way and sometime later come across a strongest
man competition.

"I'll have a crack at this says superman".

Sometime later superman reappears and without trying to appear to full
of himself tells his friends that he too has won his competition.

The
three then continue on there way and eventually come across a worlds biggest
liar competition.

"This one's for me" says Pinocchio and off he
goes.

Sometime later a clearly disconsolate Pinocchio re emerges and
somewhat plaintively asks his friends

"Who the hell is David Cunliffe?"

craic
26-06-2014, 10:51 AM
The reality is that Chinese who are wealthy businessmen gained their position by a methodology that is totally foreign to most Judeo-Christian Europeans. We were constantly being told that to do business with the Chinese we must understand the Chinese and their methods and act accordingly. I have no doubt that many to the Left and to the Right play this game in varying degrees. Years ago ( late fifties) when I worked on liners, The wisest passengers, first class, Tipped their steward at their very first contact and received top service in return. " you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" was started by the higher apes who still follow the practice. Trying to use it as a political weapon is pillow fighting.

fungus pudding
26-06-2014, 12:05 PM
All this will do is get people to do a bit more structure, though it will be hard to get around tax avoidance arguments.

I hope you have all been sensible like me and have set up your investments in a company. My prediction is that for the rest of my lifetime, the company tax rate will be significantly less that the top marginal tax rate.


That's probably right. PIEs are good for those like me who can't be bothered with companies. I reckon National will announce a tax free threshold soon. I hope they do, cos I can hardly wait for EZ and Belgarion to tell us what is wrong with that as a policy.

777
26-06-2014, 12:16 PM
The trouble with a tax free threshold is it would probably mean having to get everyone to complete a tax return each year. They are continually down sizing the IRD at present.

Harvey Specter
26-06-2014, 12:25 PM
The trouble with a tax free threshold is it would probably mean having to get everyone to complete a tax return each year. They are continually down sizing the IRD at present.
The system currently handles multiple rates so a 0 rate shouldn't be a major issue. The real issue is that you think it benefits low income earners but they pay no net income tax due to WFF etc.

If/When National does announce tax cuts, I expect it to me minor drops across the board and/or increasing the threasholds (eg. Reduce bottom rate to 10% and increase the range it applies to, no change to 33% rate but up the threshold from $70k to $80 or $90k.)

Sgt Pepper
26-06-2014, 12:42 PM
The system currently handles multiple rates so a 0 rate shouldn't be a major issue. The real issue is that you think it benefits low income earners but they pay no net income tax due to WFF etc.

If/When National does announce tax cuts, I expect it to me minor drops across the board and/or increasing the threasholds (eg. Reduce bottom rate to 10% and increase the range it applies to, no change to 33% rate but up the threshold from $70k to $80 or $90k.)

Tax cuts, yes indeed I thought our esteemed leader promised a second tranche of tax cuts, and so the middle to upper salary earners wait and wait and wait.

slimwin
26-06-2014, 01:01 PM
He sai they'd look at it if the books remained good.

Sgt Pepper
26-06-2014, 01:08 PM
He sai they'd look at it if the books remained good.

Yeah - right

Harvey Specter
26-06-2014, 01:26 PM
Tax cuts, yes indeed I thought our esteemed leader promised a second tranche of tax cuts, and so the middle to upper salary earners wait and wait and wait.
I think with Labour proposing tax increases, the need for Nation to promise tax cuts is reduced so I am not sure if they will announce before the election. Better to wait till a later budget when the state of the economy is more certain.

Sgt Pepper
26-06-2014, 01:47 PM
Yup. That nice Mr Key will look after you ... He will won't he?

that right Belg, the duplicity of John Key knows no bounds

fungus pudding
26-06-2014, 01:52 PM
Its getting harder and harder to tell the difference between your posts, Fungus Pudding, and Cuzzies.

Funny that. I find it hard to tell the difference between your paranoia and eZ's

fungus pudding
26-06-2014, 02:08 PM
FP, do you dispute ElZ's well made point?

I.e. if the global prices for our primary products hadn't risen during the GFC ... Then we'd be deep trouble? Very deep indeed!



If the sun stopped shining we'd be in trouble. If Australia attacked us, we'd be in trouble. If nobody ever died we'd be in trouble. If swine flu, sars, bird-flu or mad-cow disease broke out in a big way we'd be in trouble. If the millennium bug really hit us in 2100 we'd be in trouble. If tourism, trade, and a million other things stopped all at once we'd be in trouble. Not things sensible people worry about though.

fungus pudding
26-06-2014, 04:29 PM
If the sun stopped shining we'd be in trouble. If Australia attacked us, we'd be in trouble. If nobody ever died we'd be in trouble. If swine flu, sars, bird-flu or mad-cow disease broke out in a big way we'd be in trouble. If the millennium bug really hit us in 2100 we'd be in trouble. If tourism, trade, and a million other things stopped all at once we'd be in trouble. Not things sensible people worry about though.

Speaking of being in trouble the latest poll has labour a couple of points under 30% Imagine what the next one will be with their silly tax proposals.

elZorro
26-06-2014, 07:12 PM
Speaking of being in trouble the latest poll has labour a couple of points under 30% Imagine what the next one will be with their silly tax proposals.

"Silly" tax proposals - they sound fair to me, I aspire to paying some at the top rate most years. Company tax being lower is a bit of a side issue, as when the money is taken out privately, it has to be topped up taxwise, to the appropriate amount. Good on you for noting, Harvey Specter, about net income tax for the lower paid being low. Total tax paid, that's a different matter.

I see even John Key has thought about quitting. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11281836) He's certainly aged while he's been in office, but so have we all. Will we look back on his tenure and say how benevolent he's been, how many world-leading and great policies he's helped put in place for NZ? Or will we simply remember a government that hung in there grimly through the aftermath of the GFC and ChCh earthquakes, and borrowed like mad to cover their ineptitude?

Cuzzie
26-06-2014, 10:25 PM
If you do not agree with ElZ's point, then should I work thru the numbers with you? If I did, would you take notice? Or, like the (mostly embarrassing) Cuzziie, would any facts that counter your sycophantic views on that nice Mr Key be ignored? ? Come on belg, that's not very nice. Just when I thought you were warming to me too!

elZorro
27-06-2014, 05:59 AM
Here's your chance, National Party voters, to bask in the glory of your leader, by purchasing his new biography. Carefully timed to affect the election, but as this Trademe listing shows, not all of us believe everything we read about the National Party and its MPs. Great questions on this listing.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=746833501


The CGT policy from Labour is becoming more popular, especially in Auckland.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/markets/news/article.cfm?c_id=62&objectid=11282563

And then we have anonymous editorials from people like this person, who will be in the top 2%, and so, directly affected by the top tax rate, writing an opinion piece in the Herald. It pushes all the buttons for the right-leaning readers, and seeks to persuade swinging voters.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11281696

One particularly good comment after this right-wing editorial..


Another day, another anti-Labour Herald editorial.

Normal lower-to-middle working class people have borne the brunt of the global financial crisis, and continue to do so regardless of how many commentators mouth off about this 'rockstar economy' of ours, which was primarily set in motion by speculators, finance companies, banks, and captured regulators.

There are over 200,000 children in endless, circular poverty here, we have record levels of debt, currently around $70bn, welfare has been cut to the bone and will probably get cut further, jobs are increasingly being automated, water, air and land environments are being abused by people who can make a healthy profit doing so, GST has been raised (after JK promised he wouldn't) which disproportionately impacts the poor, various infrastructure and resource extraction projects have not created even half the jobs they were promised to, asset sales have helped drive up the price of electricity, inequality at record levels... I could go on and on.

Bottom line: the rich need to be taxed more heavily, for redistribution/social justice, and paying down this record debt. Not a huge amount more, just a little can make the difference.
j-mcdonald - 08:43 AM Thursday, 26 Jun 2014

225Like (javascript:likeThis(1264462);)

Harvey Specter
27-06-2014, 08:14 AM
"Silly" tax proposals - they sound fair to me, I aspire to paying some at the top rate most years. Company tax being lower is a bit of a side issue, as when the money is taken out privately, it has to be topped up taxwise, to the appropriate amount. Good on you for noting, Harvey Specter, about net income tax for the lower paid being low. Total tax paid, that's a different matter. Their total tax is still very low. If you consider that they receive more 'tax credits' than they pay in tax, GST is therefore the only major tax they pay (I wont count vice taxes like alcohol and tabacco, though you could argue fuel tax should be included too). So even if they spend their entire income, their 'tax rate is still only a max of 15%, less the tax credits they get on their income. Now as the media keeps telling us, they spend all their money on rent (GST exempt) and have no money for food of clothing, that means they aren't paying any tax at all. So while I qualified my statement with 'income tax' as that is the easy one to prove, the statement probably still stands for all taxes.


I see even John Key has thought about quitting. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11281836) He's certainly aged while he's been in office, but so have we all. Will we look back on his tenure and say how benevolent he's been, how many world-leading and great policies he's helped put in place for NZ? Or will we simply remember a government that hung in there grimly through the aftermath of the GFC and ChCh earthquakes, and borrowed like mad to cover their ineptitude?I dont see why the left compain about Nationals borrowing, when Labour would have done exactly the same. Sure the is the 'tax cuts' (which theoretically were meant to be revenue neutral but I dont think they were) and Labour would have increased taxes (what would more tax have done to the economy?).


The CGT policy from Labour is becoming more popular, especially in Auckland.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/markets/news/article.cfm?c_id=62&objectid=11282563
I personally think people dont understand how this will impact houseprices. Yes CGT will reduce the increase in house prices but only because it will have an effect on economic growth, and hence wage growth. The 'family' home is still exempt which is over 60% of the housing stock and most investors are in for the long term so they dont sell anyway. The quick flick guys are meant to be tax now (but probably file false returns) so they will probably try to claim the lower 15% going forward compared to the 33% they are meant to now.

Note: I would be in favour of a CGT if it had no exemptions, though I would argue for roll over relief (carry forward you gain untaxed into your next house). I am not entirely convinced the admin costs warrant it and the extra tax will just be wasted on the lefts follies, when it should really be a revenue neutral change with tax rates (at the lower end?) fallling as the capital gains tax take starts to roll in.