If National wins ...

[craic]

I only back winners so I don't have to worry on this score, All my bets are covered. Last Saturday I more than doubled my money at the TAB so this Saturday I will be playing with my winnings. I had sort of decide that I would spend my fortune on wine, women and song rather than waste it but my wife says that the women are out and I can't sing to save my life so gambling and wine are in. This afternoon I put a wash through the still and came away with about six litres of ethanol @ 40% ABV. I am a bit of a numbers freak so I tend to back the top jockey based on his percentage of winners and placings, not on how much he won in stakes. I also have a favourite little Hong Kong jockey who is a very good and honest rider and she has made me quite a few bob.

[elZorro]

I only back winners so I don't have to worry on this score, All my bets are covered. Last Saturday I more than doubled my money at the TAB so this Saturday I will be playing with my winnings. I had sort of decide that I would spend my fortune on wine, women and song rather than waste it but my wife says that the women are out and I can't sing to save my life so gambling and wine are in. This afternoon I put a wash through the still and came away with about six litres of ethanol @ 40% ABV. I am a bit of a numbers freak so I tend to back the top jockey based on his percentage of winners and placings, not on how much he won in stakes. I also have a favourite little Hong Kong jockey who is a very good and honest rider and she has made me quite a few bob.

I was going to write a betting program once, I figured you could run old races through it until it came out above break-even. Trouble was I never learned how to program! Like I say, just keep some cash spare Craic, you never know with Labour. A lot of people on the ground.

[Cuzzie]

Back to the personal abuse,eh! Belg. Don't you ever learn?
craic, the personal abuse is a compliment to me and the more I get the more I love. Typical troll tactic is, if you can't win the debate try your best to belittle your opponent. I love them going down to that level. They only know abuse when that is the only thing left. The fact that belg tells EZ not to engage with me anymore, means - "we(belg & EZ) will never pull the wool over his eyes & when we try he exposes us every time". They would be very right - I'm loving it. Funny how they say my math is wrong but don't say where. At least EZ has now admitted he was lying before when he said, Labour left no debt when now he has admitted twice that they did - Ten Billion dollars worth of debt. Funny also how he tries to pass that onto the Bolger Govt. Do I really have to dig into the Lange Govt. affairs? Nope, that would just turn into ... and so on & on. Do you like tennis? Sadly he misses the point that Helen Clark left a $10,000,000,000 ($10 Billion) debt for National to sort out and that's what this Government needs to work with plus three elections worth of bribes from Helen Clark including their ongoing costs. What the Loonie left need to own up to their mistakes, but will never rise to such heights.


EZ, when you spoke to David Cunliffe last night, you didn't ask him if he paid his bill for the new kitchen in time did you? Even if you did, would you really expect a straight answer? Nope. Which is the reason you are - same Elk!!!

[Cuzzie]

Cripes, I hope you have deep pockets Craic! :)Watch it craic, he is phishing you to see if Labour can tax you at their planned higher rate to feed the lazy.

[Major von Tempsky]

Does it ever occur to Belge (and EZ) that NZ has very recently been put on positive creditwatch http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11290392 by Fitch and an important part of their review is this debt talked about by Belge....

Any attempt to raise this issue by Cunliffe and he will be shot down in flames.

[elZorro]

Does it ever occur to Belge (and EZ) that NZ has very recently been put on positive creditwatch http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11290392 by Fitch and an important part of their review is this debt talked about by Belge....

Any attempt to raise this issue by Cunliffe and he will be shot down in flames.

Labour is trying to run a clean election. But MVT, even from your pro-National position, wasn't the text in that article worrying?


Fitch said vulnerabilities remained, primarily related to net external debt and a dependence on strong commodity prices.
"New Zealand remains heavily exposed to developments elsewhere, notably in China and Australia," Fitch said.
Fitch notes the government is projecting its first fiscal surplus since 2008 in the 2014/15 budget.
"The fiscal consolidation drive continues to be strong and Fitch believes it is supported across the political spectrum," Fitch said.
"The authorities have a credible plan to lift the fiscal surplus in the years ahead and reduce net core Crown public debt to 20 percent of GDP by FY20."



FY20? When is that? A long time into the future. Or is the real message "We're happy with the 35% of GDP figure thanks"

So we've moved to AA(positive) on their scale. They have two more positions above that, AA+ and AAA.

But what's this I see from 2011, back three years?

http://www.interest.co.nz/news/55716/fitch-cuts-nzs-sovereign-credit-rating-one-notch-aa-aa-cites-nzs-high-net-foreign-debt-an

In 2011 we were already on the higher step AA+. Maybe that was something to do with Labour's great record.
So we must have been on AA(stable) recently.

I think it's really commendable that under National's stewardship, we've been able to claw back to AA (positive) rating (but still below where we were under Labour). That's not too bad for National.

[elZorro]

craic, the personal abuse is a compliment to me and the more I get the more I love. Typical troll tactic is, if you can't win the debate try your best to belittle your opponent. I love them going down to that level. They only know abuse when that is the only thing left. The fact that belg tells EZ not to engage with me anymore, means - "we(belg & EZ) will never pull the wool over his eyes & when we try he exposes us every time". They would be very right - I'm loving it. Funny how they say my math is wrong but don't say where. At least EZ has now admitted he was lying before when he said, Labour left no debt when now he has admitted twice that they did - Ten Billion dollars worth of debt. Funny also how he tries to pass that onto the Bolger Govt. Do I really have to dig into the Lange Govt. affairs? Nope, that would just turn into ... and so on & on. Do you like tennis? Sadly he misses the point that Helen Clark left a $10,000,000,000 ($10 Billion) debt for National to sort out and that's what this Government needs to work with plus three elections worth of bribes from Helen Clark including their ongoing costs. What the Loonie left need to own up to their mistakes, but will never rise to such heights.


EZ, when you spoke to David Cunliffe last night, you didn't ask him if he paid his bill for the new kitchen in time did you? Even if you did, would you really expect a straight answer? Nope. Which is the reason you are - same Elk!!!

Cuzzie, is that really what you thought you had on David Cunliffe, that he was late paying for a kitchen refurb? I can only assume that there was a quality issue with that work. In any case, a business that was sailing that close to the wind, that one kitchen job couldn't be financed with a cheap bank overdraft, probably shouldn't be trading.

I actually asked David how he coped with the long hours. He replied that sometimes he works for 21 hours straight. That's dedication.

BTW, you meant to say the same ilk, didn't you? Trouble is that 'i' is nowhere near 'e' on a qwerty keyboard.

Regarding your flawed logic about Labour leaving a debt - then by the same token National (at the moment) have left a very big bill for Labour of $70bill, so shouldn't you be chastising your precious party for an own goal?

[iceman]

I got "polled" a few weeks back. I made it very clear I would be voting for National. And mother got polled too. She also is voting for National. ;)

Same here. Said Greens.

[Cuzzie]

Cuzzie, is that really what you thought you had on David Cunliffe, that he was late paying for a kitchen refurb? I can only assume that there was a quality issue with that work. In any case, a business that was sailing that close to the wind, that one kitchen job couldn't be financed with a cheap bank overdraft, probably shouldn't be trading.

I actually asked David how he coped with the long hours. He replied that sometimes he works for 21 hours straight. That's dedication.

BTW, you meant to say the same ilk, didn't you? Trouble is that 'i' is nowhere near 'e' on a qwerty keyboard.

Regarding your flawed logic about Labour leaving a debt - then by the same token National (at the moment) have left a very big bill for Labour of $70bill, so shouldn't you be chastising your precious party for an own goal?There was nothing wrong with his very expensive kitchen EZ, but nice to know you are already making excuses for that too. That's right blame the manufacturer because your faultless Cunliffe can't possible be to blame for Cunliffe himself paying Cunliffe's own bills. May I suggest you don't comment if you don't know the story, but the fact that you are tells me you are very inventive.

I can believe the long hours he works, clearly he would need to work three hours to Keys one hour just to keep up. Tell him he needs to work harder.

Spelling police again EZ, nice. At least we all know that you are at least good at something. Ilk it is and not elk, thanks for that EZ, I really appreciate it.

Yep, you could be right. Labour might win even with polling in the 20s, but that is stretching it even for your standards EZ. Of course National would need to lose this election if they leave anything for Labour. That makes your fantasy deeply fractured. At least every 70 voters in 100 won't be voting for Labour and 1 in 2 will be voting National. That's what happens when National gets results and Labour leaders & it's fanboys carry on in the same theme as Helen Clark.

So let's do the sums again. $10 Billion Dollars that both you and I agree Helen Clark left NZ in debt when she lost the 2008 by a landslide due to running the country into the ground, $40 Billion for the ChCh rebuild & then add in the costly programmes put in place by Labour, including KiwiSaver, Working for Families and interest free student loans. Interest free loans cost $600 Mill per year for the last seven and that = $4.2 Billion. Then the $59 Billion from interest for all of the above.

So $10 bill + $40 bill + $4.2 bill + $59 bill = $113.2 Billion and that's not including Labour's Kiwisaver & Working for Families costs which I can't find an accurate total for and the Global Financial Crisis National faced when they first came into power. $113.2 Billion minus $70 Billion dollars = at least $43.2 Billion Dollars that I can account for that the Key Govt. has put back into the system. That's something Labour only dreams about. If only National did not have a huge debt left over from Labour, costly election bribes by the Clark Govt. to pay for and an Earthquake and a Global Financial Crisis, we would be sitting pretty right now.

How's that for Math & Accounting? Rap your laughing gear around that.

[iceman]

Iceman

What I am curious about is how long Murray McCully is going to last, me thinks NOT LONG. The only other leader who has gone through more cabinet ministers was probably Saddam Hussein

Hi Sgt Pepper. Sorry I am too busy enjoying the midnight sun up here at the Arctic Circle (tee-ed of a game of golf at midnight last night after the football game) to follow the "news" in NZ about this case involving MFAT and McCully. Must say that the alleged victim Tania Billingsley has lost my sympathy by letting herself be used for political purposes in the media though. Otherwise I have no comment on that case.
Re your question on McCully, I have no idea. But I would totally expect him to become an Ambassador to the US or something similar during the next 2-3 years.

Ditto EZ with responding to all the graphs you and belg have been posting. I know Labour were fairly responsible during their fist 4-5 years but lost their marbles after that with disastrous consequences for NZ. National has since been working hard to restore responsible management of the country since they took over, with overall very good results as witnessed by the recent ratings upgrade.

[elZorro]

That was a bit glib of you Iceman, I'd like to know which policies you thought indicated Labour "lost their marbles". Were the R&D tax credits included?

If that policy had been left in place instead of being ceremoniously dumped by National, we'd be a lot more likely to have a stronger manufacturing sector right now.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11291448

Cuzzie - again your comprehension, or lack of it, astounds me. When you borrow money, you accrue interest. Who borrowed the new govt money, at the same time as they gave tax credits to the wealthiest private people in NZ (https://www.greens.org.nz/press-releases/national-s-tax-cuts-heart-budget-crisis)? There's your culprit, the National Party. Here's further evidence from the PSA. (http://www.psa.org.nz/Libraries/PSA_Document_2/Tax_cuts.sflb.ashx)

[craic]

You still haven't worked out that the need to call those with an opposite point of view to yours by names such as "nasties" is YOUR weakness not theirs? . You have exactly the same right to vote or give your money to the poor as they have.

[craic]

And your constant nonsense will continue to salve your mind and conscience when the public prove you wrong and return Key to power bucause they see him as the decent honest man that he is. I have the money - do you have the balls?

[westerly]

There was nothing wrong with his very expensive kitchen EZ, but nice to know you are already making excuses for that too. That's right blame the manufacturer because your faultless Cunliffe can't possible be to blame for Cunliffe himself paying Cunliffe's own bills. May I suggest you don't comment if you don't know the story, but the fact that you are tells me you are very inventive.

[[/FONT]
So let's do the sums again. $10 Billion Dollars that both you and I agree Helen Clark left NZ in debt when she lost the 2008 by a landslide due to running the country into the ground, $40 Billion for the ChCh rebuild & then add in the costly programmes put in place by Labour, including KiwiSaver, Working for Families and interest free student loans. Interest free loans cost $600 Mill per year for the last seven and that = $4.2 Billion. Then the $59 Billion from interest for all of the above.

So $10 bill + $40 bill + $4.2 bill + $59 bill = $113.2 Billion and that's not including Labour's Kiwisaver & Working for Families costs which I can't find an accurate total for and the Global Financial Crisis National faced when they first came into power. $113.2 Billion minus $70 Billion dollars = at least $43.2 Billion Dollars that I can account for that the Key Govt. has put back into the system. That's something Labour only dreams about. If only National did not have a huge debt left over from Labour, costly election bribes by the Clark Govt. to pay for and an Earthquake and a Global Financial Crisis, we would be sitting pretty right now.

How's that for Math & Accounting? Rap your laughing gear around that.


We don't know the kitchen story because you only give your version.

"To give you some idea of that scale, in the May Budget the Government increased the total estimated cost of rebuilding Christchurch to around $40 billion from the previous estimate of $30 billion. The Government's share of that cost is now around $15 billion – up from the previous estimate of $13 billion."
Quote from Scoop. How''s that for twisting the facts?
Rap ? your laughing gear around that

westerly

[fungus pudding]

Petition for McCully to resign ...

https://www.change.org/en-AU/petitions/prime-minister-rt-hon-john-key-demand-murray-mccully-minister-for-foreign-affairs-resign

Hmm ... Not sure that this serves any purpose except maybe send a message to all politicians of their duties as ministers first and foremost. I wasn't intending to sign, certainly not until more facts emerge, but reading the comments is making me reconsider.

Go on - sign it. Don't be a wimp! You can do it. You know you can, and we know you will.

[craic]

The "they" is the majority who clearly vote for Key in polls and the like. Your nonsense is the simple claim you make that everything on the right is wrong and everything on the left is fine and cozy. This is my final comment on NZ politics until after the election when I will crow and collect. But I repeat - if you have the balls, put your money where your mouth is.

[Sgt Pepper]

Hmmm. Don't believe I've made any such claim whatsoever.

But lets take an example and reverse it to see what happens. Let's say the Greens and Labour introduce a "sugar tax" in the interests of cutting obesity. Would that be a good thing or not?

That right Belg
What I also find really irritating is the deliberate selective memory regarding the surplus that labour generated during its term in office. Michael Cullen was constantly criticised for the surpluses by National and their default allies outside of Parliament. His retort was that surpluses are never permanent and they must take account of the inevitable reversal of economic cycles.

[fungus pudding]

That right Belg
What I also find really irritating is the deliberate selective memory regarding the surplus that labour generated during its term in office. Michael Cullen was constantly criticised for the surpluses by National and their default allies outside of Parliament. His retort was that surpluses are never permanent and they must take account of the inevitable reversal of economic cycles.

Ah yes, Cullen. The man who insisted students would repay their loans faster once the burden of interest was removed.

[Sgt Pepper]

[QUOTE=fungus pudding;491389]Ah yes, Cullen. The man who insisted students would repay their loans faster once the burden of interest was removed.[/QUOTE

FP
So your response to Labours record of generating surpluses??? ,
or has political debate degenerated into the Orwellian. FP, if you haven't read 1984, read it, if you have, read it again.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."

President John F Kennedy

[fungus pudding]

[QUOTE=fungus pudding;491389]Ah yes, Cullen. The man who insisted students would repay their loans faster once the burden of interest was removed.[/QUOTE

FP
So your response to Labours record of generating surpluses??? ,
or has political debate degenerated into the Orwellian. FP, if you haven't read 1984, read it, if you have, read it again.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."

President John F Kennedy


Labour? Is that the crowd that bought us an overpriced useless rail system as a going away present?

[neopoleII]

"" Let's say the Greens and Labour introduce a "sugar tax" in the interests of cutting obesity. Would that be a good thing or not? ""

if they did this..... that would be a good move for society, as long as they reduced the $billion plus tax rout that is instilled onto smokers.
but we know that wont happen..... and as 2/3 of the NZ population is considered to be over weight or obese ...... I cant see the labgreens
bringing in any taxes that affect the ""poor"" fat folks in our society.
why is it that poor folks are fat, yet the poor kid are starving worse than 3rd world kids???
is it because the nasties are in power .... or is it that poor fat folks dont care about their kids?
have a drive through south aucks and see the franchised burger joints packed out with fatties and this is the same economic zone
that has the highest welfare dependency in NZ.

IMHO...... give the poor or the needy folks food stamps, pay their housing and utilities direct to the suppliers, and then give them a small discretionary amount to spend.
unlike....... the current system of loading these folks banks accounts up with welfare cash to be spent how they choose.
from my understanding....... which is very simpleton...... south aucks........ the poorest district in NZ has the biggest problem with,
booze, drugs, gambling and fatty fast food......... so ....... where is all this cash coming from?
welfare handouts........ instilled by LABOUR.

Disc......... live in south aucks from 5 years of age till 25 years of age. move to franklin, but folks still live in south aucks.
The entire district is funded on welfare.

[neopoleII]

now for the sad part......
my missus comes from true red dunedin....... her father is a true labour voter.....
he came up for a visit to see where his only daughter moved to...... my/ our place ...... isolated farm in franklin.
so....... he gets off the plane and I decided to show him an auckland labour stronghold.
so we drove all around mangere, papatoetoe, manurewa, and all the other sub-suburbs, went through otara shopping center etc,
so after 2 hours of driving, I told him this is the labour strong hold. but it needs the hard working class of honest dunedin workers /voters who are
olde school dunedin workers, who WORK for a living, and vote labour to support this area ........ what they dont know is, they are supporting a population of welfare users
larger than the population of dunedin in South auckland.

anyway..... his eyes are finally open and for the first time, this 78 year old man will not vote labour.

Personally i think every south islander needs to spend 2 hours in south auckland.
and every south aucklander need to spend a week in Africa.

but hey....... im just a simple guy who crawled out of south auckland and live within my means.

[Sgt Pepper]

[QUOTE=Sgt Pepper;491394]


Labour? Is that the crowd that bought us an overpriced useless rail system as a going away present?

Kiwi Rail/NZ Rail? is that the company John Key purchased shares in, and then forgot, and then remembered ?
Hopefully his memory was better when he worked at Merrill Lynch, however you never know, they may have been desperate to recruit staff.

[fungus pudding]

[QUOTE=fungus pudding;491404]

Kiwi Rail/NZ Rail? is that the company John Key purchased shares in, and then forgot, and then remembered ?


If you had bought shares in Kiwirail, would you admit it?

[Xerof]

Over priced? I though they paid just one dollar for all the track and land.

Labour SOLD it for $1, then bought it back for $700,000,000.

[fungus pudding]

You mean Tranzrail (TRH?)? The shares that Key bought?

I admit to buying. And I'll confess to the near 100% tax free capital gain too.

I, unlike Key, did it with an economics rationale rather than from inside information that Key would have been privy too.

By too, I presume you mean as well as you.

[Sgt Pepper]

FP

The following is to refresh your memory.



Mr Key has struggled to explain why he did not disclose he had a much bigger stake in Tranz Rail, and traded in the shares when he was seeking official information about them and publicly commenting on them. Finance Minister Michael Cullen said yesterday that Mr Key had lied, covered up the truth and acted unethically over the transactions in 2002 and 2003.
"Clearly, Mr Key was not simply not forthcoming, he actually lied," Dr Cullen said.
The records, unearthed by Labour's researchers, throw Mr Key on to the back foot just as the election campaign starts, and at a time when National was hoping to gain politically from the privileges committee investigation into NZ First leader Winston Peters.
The revelation explains why Labour has been pushing the issue of "trust" so strongly as its main campaign theme.
The records show that Mr Key's family trust bought 30,000 shares on February 15, 2002, for $108,000 and a further 20,000 shares four days later for $72,000.
In July 2002 Mr Key was elected to Parliament and was appointed associate transport spokesman for National. He asked a series of questions about Tranz Rail in October 2002 and again in April 2003.
On May 7, 2003, he bought in his own name 50,000 Tranz Rail shares for about $22,500.
On May 20 he had a meeting with Rail America, which had been interested in bidding for the company but withdrew. Later that month he complained to the ombudsman about Dr Cullen's refusal to release to him information on Tranz Rail.
On June 10 he sold the parcel of 50,000 shares in his own name for $51,000 - more than doubling his money. A day later he quizzed Dr Cullen at a committee about the company, but had to this point never disclosed his shareholding interest.
On June 13 his family trust sold its shares for $48,000 - a loss that meant Mr Key overall made a loss on the transactions.
Ad Feedback (http://www.stuff.co.nz/about-stuff/advertising-feedback/?pos=STORYBODY&adsize=300x250&area=s.stuff) <a target="_blank" href="http://adclick.g.doubleclick.net/aclk%253Fsa%253DL%2526ai%253DBzym7GHHAU87hA5Cj9AWf uoGgDovomvAEAADg5aQBEAEgADgAWPPftLW1AWCr5LOF-CiCARdjYS1wdWItOTM2Njg2NzE3NDIwMzc3MrIBD3d3dy5zdHV mZi5jby5ueroBCWdmcF9pbWFnZcgBCdoBdmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuc 3R1ZmYuY28ubnovZG9taW5pb24tcG9zdC9uZXdzL3BvbGl0aWN zLzYzOTgwOC9LZXktYWNjdXNlZC1vZi1seWluZy1vdmVyLXJha Wwtc2hhcmVzLWZvbnQtc2l6ZS0xLXZpZGVvLWZvbnSpAnRA8zF Pkq0-wAIC4AIA6gIqNjY3NC9vbmwuc3R1ZmYuZG9taW5pb25wb3N0L2 5ld3MvL3BvbGl0aWNz-AKB0h6QA6ALmAOgC6gDAeAEAaAGHw%2526num%253D0%2526si g%253DAOD64_1e5aBpdBDXCryfYznxcGvPVN6K5w%2526clien t%253Dca-pub-9366867174203772%2526adurl%253Dhttp://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/282860036;109747898;x"><img src="http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CICAgKDjv8WmHxABGAEyCC5jDOsHuYcu" width="300" height="250" border="0" alt="" galleryimg="no"></a>http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=8606

He said in a June 13 newsletter: "It is critical for our transport strategy that we have an efficient fully operational rail network and I hope that the interest shown by Rail America will be picked up by others."
Mr Key only admitted his shareholding reached 100,000 after being confronted with that number by a One News reporter - first saying it had reached only 50,000.
"Actually maybe 100,000 from memory, sometimes 50,000, sometimes 100,000, yep," he said.
"Yeah, sorry, there was 100,000 in total."
He said he had not revealed the size of his parcel before because "no one has ever asked me the number I owned".
He said he had been open about when he sold them.
"I don't ever believe I have traded shares for my own personal benefit with information I have had from Parliament."
Dr Cullen said the issue was not one of insider trading but of ethics. Mr Key had breached Parliament's standing orders by not disclosing his interest.
This morning Mr Key said the attack was further evidence Labour would run a desperate smear campaign against him.
"Labour continues to be distracted from the real issues facing New Zealand," Mr Key said.
He said it had been public knowledge for months his family trust had been shareholders in Tranz Rail until the shares were sold in June 2003.
"The point here is that I confirmed my family trust was a shareholder in Tranz Rail when the matter was first raised," he said.
He said the number of shares held by the trust varied at different times.
"The shareholdings were managed on my behalf by my broker who had the authority to act on individual share parcels without referring back to the trust.
"Early in June 2003 it became clear to me Tranzrail could be a major political issue and I instructed my broker to sell the shares, which were sold on 9 and 12 June 2003. The net result of the shareholdings is that the trust lost a substantial amount of money."
DATES AND DEALINGS
Timeline of National leader John Key's Tranz Rail share dealings.
* February 15, 2002 – Mr Key's family trust buys 30,000 shares in Tranz Rail for $108,000.
* February 19 – The trust buys 20,000 more Tranz Rail shares for $72,000.
* July 27 – Mr Key is elected to Parliament.
* October 30-31 – Mr Key asks parliamentary questions relating to Tranz Rail and the future of the rail track without disclosing his shareholding.
* April 9, 2003 – In Parliament, Mr Key questions Finance Minister Michael Cullen about secret meetings between the government and Tranz Rail.
* April 14 – Mr Key seeks dates and details of government meetings with Tranz Rail in written parliamentary questions.
* April 23 – Mr Key seeks copies of minutes from government meetings with Tranz Rail from Dr Cullen, who declines on commercial secrecy grounds.
* May 7 – Mr Key buys 50,000 more Tranz Rail shares in his own name for $22,500.
* May 20 – In his role as National's associate transport spokesman, Mr Key meets Rail America to discuss Tranz Rail.
* June 10 – Mr Key sells the 50,000 Tranz Rail shares he bought in May for $51,000.
* June 11 – Under questioning by Mr Key in Parliament, Dr Cullen expresses his view that Tranz Rail is carrying hundreds of millions' worth of liabilities.
* June 13 – Mr Key's family trust sells its 50,000 Tranz Rail shares for $48,000 – a loss of $132,000.
* June 18 – Mr Key again attacks government plans to buy back rail tracks.
* October 16 – Mr Key makes apparently hypothetical reference in the debate over pecuniary interests legislation to a possible shareholding in Tranz Rail. NZPA
- The Dominion Post




















































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[fungus pudding]

Which reminds me, FP, a claim you made on CGT ... Re CGT exemptions ...



To which I responded...



And you replied, no references, just your own beliefs ....



My rebuttal ... Firstly, a Professor of Law and Taxation at Auck Unis Business school ..

Craig Elliffe: Time to examine the sacred cow of capital gains tax (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11290494)

... and Westpacs chief economist ...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11257816

... Do I need to dig up NZ Treasury's view on CGT too?

... Need I also remind Key sycophants of his pledge not to change our unaffordable Superannuation system as well?

Key is NOT the financial genius many think - simply a selfish guy; supported by a diminishing number of short sighted, selfish people; who feathering his own very rich nest.

Just smile and wave boys. Smile and wave. #TeamKey (the party for rich)


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11257816

There are a lot of pros and cons with a CGT. Also a lot of traps for the unwary who is not even an investor. We certainly don't want to end up with a scheme like Australia's. However my point was we are constantly told by Labour that CGT will direct funds from real estate to other forms of investments. That is simply nonsense as all forms of investment and businesses (apart form a few small enterprises) will be subject to CGT and therefore will not be more attractive because of the tax. NZ's spec tax of the 1970s should show you how prices will not reduce in real estate. In that case the opposite happened. Evidence suggests that CGT slows markets by slowing supply and we know what that means.

[Cuzzie]

We don't know the kitchen story because you only give your version.

"To give you some idea of that scale, in the May Budget the Government increased the total estimated cost of rebuilding Christchurch to around $40 billion from the previous estimate of $30 billion. The Government's share of that cost is now around $15 billion – up from the previous estimate of $13 billion."
Quote from Scoop. How''s that for twisting the facts?
Rap ? your laughing gear around that

westerly
westerly you're right last week I has too much work on my hands and did a quick google search for the total cost for the Govt. for the ChCh rebuild, which came up with the $40 Billion total. Normally I would read the whole article to make sure I had my facts right. I bypast that and will admit I got it wrong. The reason I was so busy is I had to push through five days work into three so I could go down country for my sister's funeral. Very, very sad as she was a fantastic person and will be sadly missed by all who knew her. Now I'm back I have a bunch of stuff to get through.

Anyway, back to the final price tag for the Government, won't be $13 Bill like you said but more like $20 Bill. The link is
Govt may raise rebuild contribution to $20b. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10149255/Govt-may-raise-rebuild-contribution-to-20b) I see Labour want to push more of the Quake rebuild costs could shift on to taxpayers. That will go down well for Labour in ChCh on election night ... not.

Just adjust my accounting down by 20 Billion with Labour's Kiwisaver & Working for Families costs still to be added on, which still shows just how well the Key Govt. has done - There is no denying that. Three more years of keeping Labour away from the chequebook and that will only get better & better.

[neopoleII]

hi belg,
I liked reading your post and there are some things I agree with,
for instance..... I support full employment, and would vote for any party that truely implements it.
the trouble is...... labour might be saying this, but the core background of the party is to dish out ever larger welfare policies.
the bad part about this is, while they advocate full employment the general citizenry "know" or "feel" that if they get into power,
the government purse strings will be opened up to more welfare.
And the opposite is true for national...... they "know" or "feel" that they will tighten the purse on welfare.
so we end up with this backwards and forwards welfare issues.
to achieve full employment we need to bring our factories back to NZ....... the rest of the western world has the same problem.
USA was the first to export its factories overseas..... and they were the first to feel the pain.
now they are retooling and getting the country working again.
We here in NZ will eventually do the same.
In my opinion there is too much welfare in NZ, on the same note though, housing costs are just wayyyyy over the top as well,
and therefore the welfare is needed. but there are better ways to give out welfare than loading up a debit card with cash.

but even before we can achieve full employment, and before we bring the factories home.
We have to instill into the current new generation a work ethic,life skills, and social responsibility.
this is the stuff that is in short supply in south auckland, and the few who have it, they are overrun or targeted by the hordes.

the problems we face in NZ were built over a generation, and will take as long to fix.
the hundreds of thousands of kiwi kids being raised in single parent homes, with no or little fatherly contact......
or for that matter a manly influence in their lives...... and then very little discipline in school life and the result is what we
are seeing on a regular basis in our papers and tv and courts.
and still the welfare dollars pour out at the rate of billlions.

I once said before, put labour and national into bed together for one term and we the citizens force them to work together.
they will definitely hate it, but it would be a very good thing for this country.
there would be a balance in welfare and commerce that no other party "marriage" could achieve.

simple fact is....... I dislike all the parties equally, but I vote for the best result for the community I live in.
I helped vote clark in, I have voted for the maori part to give them strength for their people.......( hoping the special maori seats would the be abolished)
Have vote for national because we need strong commerce direction. would prefer to vote green....... but the co leaders scare the hell out of me.
I might vote conservative this time around ......just because I dont like the rest.

cheers

[slimwin]

Interesting neo. Up till about the last sentence I thought you were sounding centrist.

[Cuzzie]

Excellent news that you support full employment. Have you looked at which party has concrete policies to work towards this?

The assertion that Labour's policies of "ever larger welfare policies" are "bad" needs some scrutiny. Buy getting people back into paid employment the govt also gets to tax their income and gets them off benefits. Consequently, not every dollar spent getting people back to work results in 100 cents "wasted". Clearly there is a case of diminishing returns hence why trying to get to zero unemployment is indeed somewhat wasteful.

El Z has previously posted figures and numbers that show how the last Labour / Green / Maori / etc. coalition performed after the 2002 recession and they did a pretty okay job. Compare that to the last six years of National where the National govt has achieve almost nothing and we have unemployment at an unhealthy 6% plus. Hopefully, if El Z has time he'll repost these figures to show the "double positives" of getting off welfare and into taxable jobs.



Indeed. The "general citizenry" unfortunately don't have a sound grasp of economic which is a very real problem in NZ's education system. Instead the "general citizenry" only respond to sound bites fed to them and may that do vote are doing so based on personalities, hence my catchphrase ...

Just smile and wave boys. Smile and wave. #TeamKey



Which as I've pointed out flies in the face of full employment that actually makes the situation worse. Counter intuitive huh?



Indeed. Something a dilemma. But which party is looking to change the balance? Certainly not National as they've been in govt for six years things have only got more out of kilter.



Couldn't agree more! Get them into work. Let get a new govt that understands the value of full employment rather than the current one who is focused on "balancing books" while in fact has run up huge debt in the last 6 years. Debt I hasten to add that was made far worse by giving tax cuts to the rich (like me) that didn't really need it ... especially as the NZ Reserve Bank helped out by keeping I-rates low!



Your absolutely right. Problem is that we keep getting Neanderthal govts about half the time who don't understand full employment and we end up with a "two steps forward one step backwards" outcome.



Indeed. How much is that welfare budget going on the state pension? And how many people who receive it actually don't need it? You'll note that National is the only? party that thinks this is okay and has foolishly vowed to do nothing about it. Head in the sand stuff.

Just smile and wave boys. Smile and wave. #TeamKey



Its always going to like that ... i.e. voting for the party we dislike the least. ;)

Someone suggested always voting against the party in power. Given National's callous conceited attitude at this point it seems like a good strategy. But Conservatives? Really? ;)

Just smile and wave boys. Smile and wave. #TeamKey
Talk about spam man. Why did you not take your own advice & wave and walk away. Pity about that!!!

[neopoleII]

regarding my comment about voting for the Conservative party.
one of their core pledges is to make citizen referendum binding.
this has not been the case to date....
end of the day this land belongs to the people..... all people and when we do have a say via referendum that say should definitely count.
anyway..... sunday evening ....... short reply.

[fungus pudding]

regarding my comment about voting for the Conservative party.
one of their core pledges is to make citizen referendum binding.
this has not been the case to date....


That is the dopiest and most dangerous policy announced by any party to date in this election.

[Cuzzie]

That is the dopiest and most dangerous policy announced by any party to date in this election. This could be a game changer though f.p - one law to rule us all. (http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/one-law-rule-us-all-conservative-party/5/196091) Look how our money has made Maori hapu billionaires.
I'm of both blood and plus more just like most Kiwis. I go right back to Pahaki beginnings and beyond that with Maori. Makes sense finally. Maori is not native to NZ, this is a way forward & relates to how it is in NZ as opposed to hand outs from Labour to control the lazy & useless vote.

[Sgt Pepper]

That is the dopiest and most dangerous policy announced by any party to date in this election.
FP
The thing is the problem with MMP is that these parties can say what they like to attract voters knowing full well they will never be in a position to implement them, I well recall that United supposedly core policy of Income splitting for tax, what happened to that Mr Dunne?

[slimwin]

Yep, the citizens can be collectively ignorant on many issues and get to out vote the experts. Lets lower the drinking age,raise the speed limit legalize hanging against international protocols. The mind boggles what would get in...

[fungus pudding]

FP
The thing is the problem with MMP is that these parties can say what they like to attract voters knowing full well they will never be in a position to implement them, I well recall that United supposedly core policy of Income splitting for tax, what happened to that Mr Dunne?

Quite true, but I shudder when I hear about binding referenda. Dunne still believes income splitting is a good idea, as do a lot of other MPs as I understand it. It will never happen though; just too difficult to administer.

[Sgt Pepper]

Quite true, but I shudder when I hear about binding referenda. Dunne still believes income splitting is a good idea, as do a lot of other MPs as I understand it. It will never happen though; just too difficult to administer.

Any political party proposing Swiss style binding referenda must also have a coherent plan to match Switzerlands GDP per capita, then I might consider it!

[slimwin]

Like developing our resources? Or are you suggesting special tax rules for foreign companies?

[fungus pudding]

Like developing our resources? Or are you suggesting special tax rules for foreign companies?


It would help if you included the post you are referring to.

[slimwin]

Sorry fp. It was for the previous post. Hard to write anything on my smart phone without my glasses.

[slimwin]

Belg,we can't vote on issues like the sugar but we can have cross party consensus and conscience votes in the house. The mps we elect vote for us.

[artemis]

Yep, the citizens can be collectively ignorant on many issues and get to out vote the experts. Lets lower the drinking age,raise the speed limit legalize hanging against international protocols. The mind boggles what would get in...

And motherhood and apple pie issues - like raise pay rates for fire fighters. Who could argue against a pay rise for the brave men and women who risk their lives etc etc, Followed by similar petitions for many other groups. Followed by tax increases, insurance increases, goods and services increases, inflation increases ..... Or politically motivated opposition such as the NZ First petition and referendum for compulsory personal super accounts. 92% against. I never understood why there was so much opposition to it esp in light of later events.

[fungus pudding]

Thank you for your opinion, FP. Could you explain how you've got to that opinion?

I do not trust the average person to properly familiarise themselves with any subject which could be put to a vote. That's public-bar politics. Listen to a couple of talk-back programs and you'll soon hear knee-jerk, half-baked, ill-informed comments to any and every matter that arises. Whatever system we have neither you or I will agree with every decision, but at least our parliament with its select committees are a long way above the mob-mentality that often surfaces with the hot topic of the day.

[Banksie]

I do not trust the average person to properly familiarise themselves with any subject which could be put to a vote. That's public-bar politics. Listen to a couple of talk-back programs and you'll soon hear knee-jerk, half-baked, ill-informed comments to any and every matter that arises. Whatever system we have neither you or I will agree with every decision, but at least our parliament with its select committees are a long way above the mob-mentality that often surfaces with the hot topic of the day.

Where do you view yourself in relation to the "average person"?

Personally I think the crowd will make better decisions *if* they are given all the relevant information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

[fungus pudding]

Where do you view yourself in relation to the "average person"?

Personally I think the crowd will make better decisions *if* they are given all the relevant information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

A fair proportion of the crowd wouldn't give two hoots about even glancing at the relevant information. They will already know what they think, rightly or wrongly, with anything that concerns them, or if not particularly interested in the particular subject, will not vote - leaving the door open for any nutter group who can muster the numbers.

[westerly]

A fair proportion of the crowd wouldn't give two hoots about even glancing at the relevant information. They will already know what they think, rightly or wrongly, with anything that concerns them, or if not particularly interested in the particular subject, will not vote - leaving the door open for any nutter group who can muster the numbers.

Probaly why National are polling around 50%

westerly

[fungus pudding]

Probaly why National are polling around 50%

westerly

It certainly explains why Labour are polling anything at all.

[neopoleII]

what i find interesting after reading the last 2 days of posts is that it seems people are more scared of each of other than the politicians that are picked by political parties.
Political parties are naturally biased to their political views, and bring in new candidates on a regular basis to fill their ranks as time moves on....... the trouble is......
they only accept candidates that pass the parties political views...... therefore........ an endless same old same old.
I trust a vote by all eligible kiwis on one issue (( an important issue )) above that of political party propaganda
A referendum vote is not something that is taken lightly, and its not designed for small to medium issues, and is also expensive.
But..... for serious issues which politicians have trouble "crossing the floor" with..... or are just "out of touch"
a referendum is an important tool to be used wisely and carefully.
once the people speak, politics will have to listen.........
from this....... the politicians will learn about the true "state of the nation" and pan political decisions can be done.
this has to be good for NZ as a whole.
NZ is going through dramatic change in a social aspect.... ie.... the olde school kiwis, the new immigrants and the young folks.
we all think and live differently and more people are accessing media of different forms away from the traditional tv and newspaper
to get the information that they are interested in......
ergo kim dotkom.....
now he is a smart man....... he joins up with the mana party ....... which he realizes only needs a very small amount of votes to secure a parliamentary seat,
and dotcom to attract numbers of young and non political thinking votes....... and WOLLAH..... he has power to alter politics!!!
I would rather support a referendum of ALL eligible voters than mana/internet swaying the course of politics.

end of the day....... rightly or wrongly...... the days of first past the post are gone...... mmp as it now, wont last in its current form,
the technology for easy mass voting is coming and when it hits........
I hope the current crop of politicians understand where and what this is going to do to our land.

The most prominent thing I have learned in the last 2 days is how scared folks are of the "guy down the road" or "in the next town"
when it comes to voting.

I truely believe that most kiwis are in the central band of life and given a chance on one topic will do the right thing.
this helps us as country and also helps politicians.

lucky for you lot........ I only have one vote.

[Sgt Pepper]

Well, well, well ... Seems like that nice Mr Key has some explaining to do ...

The secret Dotcom papers (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11293403)

More evidence of how the National Party has one rule for the rich and another for everyone else. I wonder if they'd have let Al Capone in too?

Belg
Mr Key has much to explain about many things, Tranz Rail shares, Ian Fletchers appointment, Dot Com,
Bill English outing as party leader, relationship with US Film industry, Crosby Textor, GCSB. A mere sampler, How his legacy will be analysed in years to come I am not sure. He is a good retail politician from a marketing point of view, but I think he is possibly of average intelligence with no coherent aspirational goals for our country. Reading through the released OIA information we need an official enquiry into the whole matter and see where the evidence goes, if it goes all the way to John Key, then he has to go
For John Key to say that he had never heard of Dot Com before the raids simply seems incredulous, get him before a commission of inquiry and put him under oath.

[Major von Tempsky]

"but I think he is possibly of average intelligence " ???? Well he was sharp enough to put himself through University from a solo parent State House background, to go overseas and make over $50 million in currency trading and you think he is of merely average intelligence?
I think the answer is you are merely a moronic Labour Party supporter parroting what someone else has told you!
Luckily we have a democracy and the verdict is delivered by the people not by some anti tall poppy cabal such as you belong to!

[Harvey Specter]

Um ... re ... to put himself through University from a solo parent State House background ... Must we point out, once again, that the same advantages that Key had have been ripped down by National? Oh dear. Another MVT own goal.Fair call. We will take $50k of his $50m net worth to account for the student loan he would had to have taken out.

[Sgt Pepper]

"but I think he is possibly of average intelligence " ???? Well he was sharp enough to put himself through University from a solo parent State House background, to go overseas and make over $50 million in currency trading and you think he is of merely average intelligence?
I think the answer is you are merely a moronic Labour Party supporter parroting what someone else has told you!
Luckily we have a democracy and the verdict is delivered by the people not by some anti tall poppy cabal such as you belong to!

MVT
Haven't seen you post on the election site for a while so its good to have you back, and no im not being sarcastic. First of all lets clear a few things up

1. I am not a member of any political party/+ any " cabal".
(Some of the harshest criticism of John Key comes from the right, if you
don't believe me check out :truebluenz.com)

2. My opinion about JK being of probably average intelligence is based on

- the way he articulates answers to questions in interviews, he seems to reach his boundaries fairly quickly, if you watched him being interviewed by Stephen Sackur on the BBC you will know what I mean.

- policy initiatives: remarkably bland. and limited. in scope.

- I suspect he relies very heavily on Bill English

Probably, in my opinion, the most intelligent PM we had was Robert Muldoon, followed by David Lange, note I didn't say they were necessarily successful.

I have no problems with people being raised in State Houses, as I grew up in one in myself.

Making $50 million in currency trading delivers what exactly to aspiring political leaders?

As to being in the minority with my opinions about JK I would draw your attention to the following

2011 elections
National : 47.31% of total votes cast
All other parties : 52.69% of total votes cast.

[artemis]

I (and others) would say Mr Key is the CEO type of manager, Mr English the CFO and Mr Joyce the COO. Senior corporate roles are largely about staying solvent, setting the direction, risk management and picking the right people for the heavy lifting. I suspect the current exec team in government has a pretty good handle on these, though it may not always be obvious.

One might disagree with running the company like a business but it does seem to be working fairly well in the circs (GFC, Christchurch, politics in general).

And there are different forms of intelligence.

[elZorro]

I've been away, Cuzzie, not ignoring you. Sorry to hear about your sister passing away.

Belgarion asked for some of those graphs, maybe that would be a good idea, as it's time to look back on the legacy of the three Labour terms followed by National's two terms. These graphs are indisputable.

[Sgt Pepper]

I (and others) would say Mr Key is the CEO type of manager, Mr English the CFO and Mr Joyce the COO. Senior corporate roles are largely about staying solvent, setting the direction, risk management and picking the right people for the heavy lifting. I suspect the current exec team in government has a pretty good handle on these, though it may not always be obvious.

One might disagree with running the company like a business but it does seem to be working fairly well in the circs (GFC, Christchurch, politics in general).

And there are different forms of intelligence.
Artemis
Thank you for some valid points, I have sat on the Board of a company and your analogy has some merit. It was also good to have a debate without recourse to personal abuse. In the end I am sure we are all patriots who aspire for the best for our country, amongst political issues which divide we need to be mindful of the things we agree on.

[elZorro]

The COO has released a thinly veiled election bribe to business, just before the election. It's a small amount of grant money ready to be doled out to the IT startup sector, but just for three months. If this is such a great idea, why hasn't this specific policy been in place before? Of course this $1mill is not an election advertising cost under the rules.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/governments-puts-1-million-into-technology-companies-6028417

[Cuzzie]

[QUOTE=elZorro;491857Sorry to hear about your sister passing away.[/QUOTE]Cheers, even though it was expected due to the Big C, it still hits you pretty hard.

[Cuzzie]

Hey, ElZ,

Seems the Nationalites have gone quiet? ... Think they learnt anything? Unlikely IMO.

Nah, it's just your out of control spamming of the board belg. I say just let him go, he'll run out of steam and cool stories sooner or later.

[Harvey Specter]

Power bills outstrip inflation at 2.3% rise (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11294071)

Oh dear. Another National Govt FAIL? The Gentailers are actually down 0.7% so competition is working. It is those nasty rip off monopoly lines companies that increased 6% that not even the ComCom can hold back.

If Labour/Greens wanted to reduce power prices, they would leave the gentailers alone (a little bit more light regulation would be fine) but nationalize Vector and the other lines companies.

[Harvey Specter]

Privatising Power companies: FAIL. power prices aren't coming down. wrong. See above post
Child Poverty: Rising fast under the callous National Govt of the last 6 years. Wrong -they are static per gini
Sleaze and Mates: Umm ... Just too many. Cunliffe and his mates are just as bad
--Dotcom (National brought him in - National deals with the fallout.) Accept but he was brought in under major investor. He has probably spend his 10m on food and helicopter rides alone
--Police fiddling stats under a National ministers gaze was probably happening under labour too. Collins should have got onto it though.
--National Minister's getting directly involved in legal cases mmmm
--National Minister's callously failing in attempted rape casess there seems to be more to this story. will wait to see what comes out.
--National providing corporate welfare to mega business (just too many to name build a large building in return for some benefits isn't welfare - its a good deal. The Tiwai one was.
Our Aging population and pension issues: Key says "not on my watch" ... Really? Then go! mmmm
Our fcked up taxation system that doesn't class all income equally?A CGT isn't necessary and Labours version isn't a best of breed. I would like a best of breed.

[elZorro]

Even diehard National supporters see through Steven Joyce's latest promo.


About turn by Steven Joyce
By Dene Mackenzie
Science and Innovation Minister Steven Joyce has made a surprising about turn about picking winners in the ICT industry, a few days after castigating Labour for proposing a similar policy.
Joyce announced yesterday that the Government would invest more than $1 million to help entrepreneur-driven ICT start-up companies become investment ready.
The investment was part of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment's accelerator programme pilot, which supported the rapid of early stage ICT and digital technology start-ups.
However, last week Mr Joyce accused Labour leader David Cunliffe of having ideas for the ICT industry which were not up-to-date and poorly thought through.
Labour's ideas included supporting first-time entrepreneurs with “garage grants” along with research and development grants and accelerated depreciation for start-ups, something Joyce said was already happening.
The minister accused Labour of having “off the planet” ideas when it suggested setting up a Government app store. But yesterday, Joyce said the accelerator programme helped foster faster economic growth by assisting entrepreneurs to develop innovative companies to drive NZ's economy into the future.
Recipients for the funding were: Creative HQ, in Wellington; Canterbury Development Corporation, Christchurch; and The Icehouse, Auckland.
Labour ICT spokeswoman Clare Curran said Labour's digital economic upgrade policy included garage grants to provide funding for entrepreneurs to turn their innovative ideas into the Xeros of the future.
Xero was one of New Zealand's highest profile accounting software companies selling mainly into the United States.
“In an astonishingly feat of shamelessness, just four days later, Mr Joyce has heralded $1 M in funding for ICT start-ups. Labour's policy provides three times that amount to ICT entrepreneurs.
“It's clear Steven Joyce has heard the industry welcoming our policies loud and clear,” she said.
Taxpayers Union executive director Jordan Williams said Joyce was putting another $1 M on the tab of taxpayers in the guise of corporate welfare.
“Another week, another million taxpayers must fork out for Mr Joyce and his officials to pick winners. When will this Government say enough is enough and put a stop to corporate welfare?”
Despite what politicians said, they did not help business by taxing the many to give handouts to a few industries, he said.
*Dene Mackenzie is political editor of the Otago Daily Times.




I don't agree with just a few larger grants either. I think it should be spread around a lot of smaller businesses. Just about any enterprise could apply for the carrot of R&D tax credits, as Labour is proposing. It's cynical to pop a bit of cash up for just three months, right in front of the election.

[neopoleII]

""Seems the Nationalites have gone quiet?""
with 219,000 odd views and 4700 posts since 2011 on this thread..... that equals only about 45 viewers and posters on a regular basis.
so its not like a big political forum, and of the 45 regular posters only a few prolific posters are labourites some are "other" voters,
so maybe 20 something national voters reading or posting on this thread.

not really a game changer..... just an interesting place to chat about politics after work........
or during work for some..........

[elZorro]

""Seems the Nationalites have gone quiet?""
with 219,000 odd views and 4700 posts since 2011 on this thread..... that equals only about 45 viewers and posters on a regular basis.
so its not like a big political forum, and of the 45 regular posters only a few prolific posters are labourites some are "other" voters,
so maybe 20 something national voters reading or posting on this thread.

not really a game changer..... just an interesting place to chat about politics after work........
or during work for some..........

I'm thankful it's not one of the big forums, with heaps of swearing going on. At least we're civil on here. Most of the time. Anyway, if you National people stopped trying to make up stuff to negate our facts about the shagged economy, there wouldn't be so many posts, and the reads per post would increase...:)

[neopoleII]

ummmm..... maybe you should read my few posts here a little better and you would see that I am not a nastie national supporter.
nor am I a loony left supporter either.
I vote for what I think is important today and tomorrow....
nats or lab or green really means nothing with what is coming for us.
but I do enjoy reading this thread....... its sort of like an education of peoples beliefs and how and why they justify them.

as for making up stuff........ hasnt this been happening for eons?
just different views with different ways to look at stats.
for the correct reason i will vote in any direction that i feel is needed.

[elZorro]

ummmm..... maybe you should read my few posts here a little better and you would see that I am not a nastie national supporter.
nor am I a loony left supporter either.
I vote for what I think is important today and tomorrow....
nats or lab or green really means nothing with what is coming for us.
but I do enjoy reading this thread....... its sort of like an education of peoples beliefs and how and why they justify them.

as for making up stuff........ hasnt this been happening for eons?
just different views with different ways to look at stats.
for the correct reason i will vote in any direction that i feel is needed.

Hi Neopole, that post of mine was a bit tongue-in-cheek of course. But I try not to make anything up when I post.

Big writeup in the Waikato Times today, about how the dairy industry in the Waikato region is HUGE and the biggest dairy earner nationwide, with the higher payout. This of course sloshes about in Hamilton and the provincial centres. Not too much of it makes its way to the IRD direct from farmers of course, but some on the fringes, and on wages, pay some tax. Can't we think of something a bit smarter to do with all that capital and borrowing? The banks are loving it, they always make money on the recycled debt.

[blackcap]

I see we have had yet another "rouge" poll...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/polls/10275359/National-holds-on-to-huge-lead

[fungus pudding]

I see we have had yet another "rouge" poll...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/polls/10275359/National-holds-on-to-huge-lead


Must be bitterly disappointing for the Green party. They haven't overtaken Labour yet.

[blackcap]

Must be bitterly disappointing for the Green party. They haven't overtaken Labour yet.

They are starting to get close though :) Who knows once David comes back from holiday that might be that catalyst required to have a the flip flop happen.

[fungus pudding]

They are starting to get close though :) Who knows once David comes back from holiday that might be that catalyst required to have a the flip flop happen.

Good point. I'd forgotten he's away.

[Major von Tempsky]

The dairy industry in the Waikato may be "huge" but it will be passed by Canterbury in a few years :-)

[neopoleII]

""Can't we think of something a bit smarter to do with all that capital and borrowing? The banks are loving it, they always make money on the recycled debt. ""
fully agree with this statement.
My land is leased out for cattle, my other option is cropping.
I dislike both, but I have bills to pays and no time currently to work my land.
10 years ago i ran my block and my neighbours block and we breed equestrian horses, provided training, and had a few nurse cows and weaners.....
it provided a nice income...... but that was with my ex who worked this full time.
I am hoping to in the near future start up a passion fruit orchard..... check out the price of those in your local supermarket.
until then, cropping or dairy on flat land, dry stock on medium land and sheep or pines on rough........ it seems to be the kiwi way.
I guess im about 4 to 5 years away from taking my place and neighbours place back and going intensive.
I even drilled a water well by hand last year...... local olde school farmers said it couldnt be done....... now I have a big solar array pumping water
from a home made ground water well....... spent $400 on all the materials to drill and set up the well.
scored a few brownie points from the farmers as well.
but anyway...... for the outlay for a viable income generating farm doing traditional things ..... yes ..... its expensive capital.
my ears are always open to other opportunities for land generated income.

cheers

[elZorro]

""Can't we think of something a bit smarter to do with all that capital and borrowing? The banks are loving it, they always make money on the recycled debt. ""
fully agree with this statement.
My land is leased out for cattle, my other option is cropping.
I dislike both, but I have bills to pays and no time currently to work my land.
10 years ago i ran my block and my neighbours block and we breed equestrian horses, provided training, and had a few nurse cows and weaners.....
it provided a nice income...... but that was with my ex who worked this full time.
I am hoping to in the near future start up a passion fruit orchard..... check out the price of those in your local supermarket.
until then, cropping or dairy on flat land, dry stock on medium land and sheep or pines on rough........ it seems to be the kiwi way.
I guess im about 4 to 5 years away from taking my place and neighbours place back and going intensive.
I even drilled a water well by hand last year...... local olde school farmers said it couldnt be done....... now I have a big solar array pumping water
from a home made ground water well....... spent $400 on all the materials to drill and set up the well.
scored a few brownie points from the farmers as well.
but anyway...... for the outlay for a viable income generating farm doing traditional things ..... yes ..... its expensive capital.
my ears are always open to other opportunities for land generated income.

cheers

I am part of a landless generation Neopole, although my grandfather had a farm, and I've worked on one for pocket money. From what I've read, most farms could produce more output, some have a lot more potential than others. If I had a small block I'd be keen on glasshouses, hardening up palms/tropical, growing fruit out of season, or using it to grow on shrubs and plants for landscapers. But these are all labour intensive, your passionfruit idea sounds good. If someone had a use for a lot of heated water nearby, I'd use those evacuated tubes at scale. These are 80% efficient. Much better than an animal cropping grass, that in turn used sun energy.

Even the dairy farmers have cause for concern, although I think this is being used as a giant excuse for holding interest rates.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11293749

Very interesting comments after this lightweight article.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11294429

[slimwin]

I think you'll find there is a lot of proactive market gardners in NZ exploring new crops. The govt and varsities does a lot of the reseach for them on this too.
Bottom line is it has to be economic. High price on shelves means a high price to produce,not large profits.
An idea for innovation is always woth exploring.
My dad was a market gardener who grew tomatos in Oamaru under glass. Of course it had to be heated and after 1979 oil got expensive.
He was the first to try these new fangled zuchinni things and did really well for one year. The year after that everybody jumped on board. There's very little "moat', if you will, in agriculture. NZ dairys is in it's collectiveness. If lamb sorted their C@ap out they would have that advantage too.

[elZorro]

NZResources has two or three articles today, gloating about National's strong polling. But on top of that, they announce a new native species in NZ.

Kapako chicks successfully fledged

[Sgt Pepper]

Neopole/EZ
I was reading the other day that in the 1950s Dairy Farms were being converted to Sheep/beef during the wool boom. I wonder if this will ever happen again. The other interesting thing, and I could have the scale wrong, was that Italy, despite being the same size as NZ, and having an industrial base of scale ,chemical, autos etc. produces 10X the amount of agricultural produce as we do, much of it exported.

[Sgt Pepper]

They are starting to get close though :) Who knows once David comes back from holiday that might be that catalyst required to have a the flip flop happen.

Don't get too smug boys, 2016 looms: 11% mortgages, Housing Sector negative equity, Mortgagee sales in the Dairy Industry, industrial action within the Health Service, ISIS invading Jordan and threatening Saudi Arabia, John Key bailing out ( late 2016 early 2017) to pursue other interests etc, etc. What do you reckon??

[slimwin]

I reckon most of those won't be blamed on national. And labour will still have to find a leader that more than just the hardliners will support.

[Major von Tempsky]

The Press today,, Friday 18 July. "Cunliffe a Liability, poll finds."

It goes on to say that Cunliffe may have become Labour's biggest liability and Labour would poll 13.5% better without him.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, EZ and Belge.

[Sgt Pepper]

I reckon most of those won't be blamed on national. And labour will still have to find a leader that more than just the hardliners will support.

Im not sure that's the case, inevitably the longer a party is in power the harder it is to blame a previous governments acts or omissions, and voters inevitably vent their frustrations out at the ballot box, the famous "married and mortgaged" could well be very grumpy by 2017, and not inclined to give Paul Bennett a go at being PM,( note I say Paula Bennett, because John Key will be away in ambassador land somewhere, mark my words and some of my more insightful National Party supporter friends have acknowledged that this is a distinct possibility)

[Sgt Pepper]

The Press today,, Friday 18 July. "Cunliffe a Liability, poll finds."

It goes on to say that Cunliffe may have become Labour's biggest liability and Labour would poll 13.5% without him.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, EZ and Belge.

MVT
smoking is very bad for you

[fungus pudding]

MVT
smoking is very bad for you

And Cunliffe's very bad for you.

[Sgt Pepper]

FP

you never responded to my query some time ago, have you read George Orwells 1984?

[fungus pudding]

FP

you never responded to my query some time ago, have you read George Orwells 1984?

Yes.




.

[Sgt Pepper]

They simply swallowed everything, and what they swallowed did them no harm, because it left no residue behind, just as a grain of corn will pass undigested through the body of a bird.” Book 2, Chapter V Page

[fungus pudding]

Im not sure that's the case, inevitably the longer a party is in power the harder it is to blame a previous governments acts or omissions, and voters inevitably vent their frustrations out at the ballot box, the famous "married and mortgaged" could well be very grumpy by 2017, and not inclined to give Paul Bennett a go at being PM,( note I say Paula Bennett, because John Key will be away in ambassador land somewhere, mark my words and some of my more insightful National Party supporter friends have acknowledged that this is a distinct possibility)

She'd be an excellent P.M.

[Sgt Pepper]

I thought you would be a Steven Joyce man FP

[westerly]

The Press today,, Friday 18 July. "Cunliffe a Liability, poll finds."

It goes on to say that Cunliffe may have become Labour's biggest liability and Labour would poll 13.5% better without him.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, EZ and Belge.

National would be 12.4 points better off without Key. You didn't mention that. A usual dubious Fairfax poll. The Press under Fairfax has deteriorated to providing not a lot of competition to the Womens Weekly.

[elZorro]

Maybe I should vote Green this year.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/businesses-back-greens-1-billion-innovation-and-sustainability-plan-jw-159293

Joyce thinks everything is OK already, but manufacturing stats are poor, and Buckley Systems, one of the star performers in the past, is shedding 35 staff.

[fungus pudding]

I thought you would be a Steven Joyce man FP

Joyce is no doubt very competent, but I don't think he would be wildly popular with the public in leader's role. Neither would Collins. You'll be well aware of what happens to a party if they appoint the wrong leader.

[elZorro]

Joyce is no doubt very competent, but I don't think he would be wildly popular with the public in leader's role. Neither would Collins. You'll be well aware of what happens to a party if they appoint the wrong leader.

FP: There's nothing wrong with David Cunliffe, hence your spin parroting the message that Crosby-Textor and National want out there. He's a very motivational speaker, and he's smart at the same time. Probably more than a match for Key, as we'll see in the leader debates.

Are you serious that Paula Bennett would make a great National PM? What are her qualifications?

[fungus pudding]

Maybe I should vote Green this year.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/businesses-back-greens-1-billion-innovation-and-sustainability-plan-jw-159293

Joyce thinks everything is OK already, but manufacturing stats are poor, and Buckley Systems, one of the star performers in the past, is shedding 35 staff.

So what? Manufacturing in all sectors rises and falls. Overall stats are great. Would you be happy if we still had factories churning out coppers and coal ranges? It's plain silly to worry about change and progress. The Greens would still like to see a blacksmith's shop on every corner. Just drop your horse off for re-shoeing while you popped into the barber's shop to get your beard trimmed. Every 'star performer' as you call them from fifty years ago was producing all sorts of things no longer needed. It will be no different in twenty years from now. The speed of change is accelerating, so don't get too wound up about it. With change comes new jobs, new opportunities and that's the exciting bit. Let it happen. We all benefit.

[slimwin]

EZ, I have no doubt dc is an intelligent man. But one thing he is not to a huge part of the voting block, is motivational.
Only the dyed in the wool see that.
Most, i guess, would say slimy.
Labour needs to think about this when they pick the next leader. Somebody who can hopefully capture some center voters back.

[elZorro]

So what? Manufacturing in all sectors rises and falls. Overall stats are great. Would you be happy if we still had factories churning out coppers and coal ranges? It's plain silly to worry about change and progress. The Greens would still like to see a blacksmith's shop on every corner. Just drop your horse off for re-shoeing while you popped into the barber's shop to get your beard trimmed. Every 'star performer' as you call them from fifty years ago was producing all sorts of things no longer needed. It will be no different in twenty years from now. The speed of change is accelerating, so don't get too wound up about it. With change comes new jobs, new opportunities and that's the exciting bit. Let it happen. We all benefit.

I didn't say I don't like change. So when are these 42,000 new manufacturing jobs going to be advertised, to replace the ones National watched disappear? They didn't just watch that process, they hurried it along. So now we sit back and the market fixes it? Several years later, the market has not made a move in that direction. You, FP, are in a dream world, along with the National caucus.

[westerly]

Joyce is no doubt very competent, but I don't think he would be wildly popular with the public in leader's role. Neither would Collins. You'll be well aware of what happens to a party if they appoint the wrong leader.

No matter who was leader of Labour, the Greens or any other party centre left the right of centre faithful would do their best to run them down.

westerly

[Cuzzie]

FP: There's nothing wrong with David Cunliffe No, he has not made one mistake and his polling has been hugely successful, otherwise there would be something wrong with David Cunliffe. I'm just glad you're so happy with him.

[blackcap]

No matter who was leader of Labour, the Greens or any other party centre left the right of centre faithful would do their best to run them down.

westerly

Does that not also apply the other way around? Don't see to many "I heart JK" signs on the left either.

[Sgt Pepper]

Gaynor on NZ's love of debt ...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11295816

However, his article and conclusion is somewhat flawed as he identifies this as a NZRB problem.

Um? Isn't it our govt's problem too? Of course it is.

Can one conclude that Gaynor is a National party supporter or he'd be mentioning that LabGreens have a solution too?

Belg
The real test for any leader/government is not in times of economic expansion and prosperity, but in times of adversity. Those headwinds are on their way and I await with interest to see how John Key copes with this, to be honest I have real concerns that he will not.

You may recall that John KEY was asked what Prime Minister was his role model. He didn't hesitate to nominate Sir Keith Holyoake. Being mindful of his legacy I did some research and found that Sir Keith was our 3rd longest serving PM, at 11 years 140 days, in order for JK to equal this tenure in office he will have to remain in office until approximately April 2020. Seems a big ask to me, and unless he declares a one party state or we discover Norwegian scale oil fields off our coast, I don't think he will attain his goal. Why? By 2020 everyone will be sick of him, the press will be bored, economic cycles will test his largesse, the right will want a significant return on their political capital and importantly Paula Bennett and Michael Woodhouse etc will conspire to remove him.s The adoring fans will have vanished like autumn leaves in a storm. Not even Crosby Textor will be able to help.

[BlackPeter]

Hi folks,

not sure whether this belongs into a different thread given that this one seems to be mainly used to discuss the political beauty (or lack thereof) of the current contestants.

Given however that we are all investors (some with a shorter and some with a longer horizon) I was wondering whether it would be appropriate to discuss investment strategies how to conserve capital if the Left wins (whatever the chances, but it is clearly not impossible given MMP and the 5% cut off clause for smaller parties randomising any election result)?

Just looking through my portfolio and watchlist:

Energy (like MRP, MELCA, GNE, CEN, NWF?) would probably do well if National wins ... and tank if it is the Left (with a predicted recovery 3 years later) - on the other hand NWF might get a huge shot into the arm if Left wins thanks to Green and potentially some more carbon credits ...

Health (like ABA, ACY, EBO?) ... not sure - might do well under both options and even get a shot into the arm if Left wins (rapidly increasing health spending)

Retirement villages (like SUM, MET, RYM) - difficult ... I could imagine that the Left might look with taxing eyes at their hidden profits - SP might stop to rise under a Left government.

Retail (like WHS, HLG, BGR, KMD) ... might initially do well under Left: increased minimum wages, more money to spend. On the other hand - prices would rapidly inflate thanks to a tanking Kiwi dollar (more expensive imports) and interest rates would shoot up, both meaning less money to spend. Long term not sure, whether Left would be good for retail shares?

Infrastructure (like IFT, CNU, TTK) ... if Left wins, than IFT likely to follow the electricity generators. CNU - risky with both options, but in my view quite hopeless under Left (unless the Internet party cuts a deal) :sleep:, TTK might do well under Left - more subsidies for small and isolated groups (high speed internet to every marae?).

Mining (like BRL, CRP, NZO, OGC) ... likely to tank or die under Left (Green), though you never know - Labour needs to put some dime towards jobs on the West Coast to keep its voters happy. Probably depends whether it would be a Labour / Green or a Green / Labour coalition. OGC probably safe bet - exiting from NZ anyway.

Agriculture (SML, FSF, ATM, PGW, DGL, SAN) ... hard to say ... neither Labour nor Green like Farmers, but than I guess the Left can't kill the milking cows (well, not all of them) - i.e. probably will do reasonable (depending on world market);

Building / Construction (like FBU, STU, OIC) - might do ok-ish under both options - though Labour is currently promising to put more of our money into the ChCh rebuild ...

Materials & Manufacturing (NPX, MVN, SKL) - same as above;

overseas funds (MLN, TEM, BRL): within reason probably a good hedge against a tanking Kiwi-Dollar (and with that against a Left government), but obviously all of these funds are dependant on a lot of factors outside of NZ government control.

Now - I do realise that this is not a comprehensive summary of all industries - but I think I caught most of the ones which might feel a difference under a change of government.

What shares would you hold to hedge against a change of government?

Interested to get some views from the Left ...

[Cuzzie]

Labour Party leader David Cunliffe claims National voters strategically answered a recent poll question to raise doubts about his leadership. Nah, it's just you David, I think they call it paranoia. More here: (http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/10285775/Poll-nonsense-numbers-Cunliffe)

[Cuzzie]

Former Labour minister Dover Samuels says he won't be voting for the Labour party at the next election. I guess he has seen the light, even ex-Labour Ministers can not bear the thought of voting for Labour. This article here: (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11295684)

[BlackPeter]

Labour Party leader David Cunliffe claims National voters strategically answered a recent poll question to raise doubts about his leadership. Nah, it's just you David, I think they call it paranoia. More here: (http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/10285775/Poll-nonsense-numbers-Cunliffe)

Wow - interesting last paragraph: "Gibson said he had visited 4000 homes in the electorate while working as an energy efficiency consultant and had discussed politics with residents."

Does this mean we pay energy consultants (presumably out of tax payer funds?) to discuss (presumably left-wing) party politics? Did I got that right?

[Major von Tempsky]

But then there's Molly Melhuish, "an energy consultant" you can guarantee would discuss left wing politics and give you fruitcake advice on energy.

[elZorro]

But then there's Molly Melhuish, "an energy consultant" you can guarantee would discuss left wing politics and give you fruitcake advice on energy.

I see from google that she's been a convener for the domestic energy user's network since 1978. That could mean that she knows a lot more about the national grid than you and I do, MVT. One of her press releases around the time of the Genesis sell-down in 2014:


Press Release – Molly Melhuish

Power stations owned by Genesis will not give a steady revenue stream, in comparison to those owned by Meridian and Mighty River Power.

The gas and coal-fired power stations are turned on and off whenever needed to make New Zealand’s whole electricity system reliable. This happens when hydro lakes are low, or the wind isn’t blowing, or when demand gets very high.

Reliability is a public policy matter – not a profit centre valued by investors.

Government should therefore retain 100% ownership of Genesis, and manage their gas and coal-fired stations to ensure the rest of our electricity supply is reliable.

Shortages are profitable, so private owners will not share Government’s concern for reliability. Trying to wring profits from Genesis can only make New Zealand’s electricity less reliable and more expensive.
Ends


Now is that left-wing, or more likely, accurate? I think it is the latter. ECNZ ran the grid fine, and they decided as a whole in the best interests of NZ, where to site any new stations. It's not so important at the moment, with National clobbering local manufacturing in the name of globalisation, and power consumption is dropping. Genesis moaned a lot about wanting to get extra income to recompense for the time Huntly's old units stay idle. Who is meant to pay for that in future? The public.

[Sgt Pepper]

BP
very comprehensive review, well done.
I tend to disagree on some scenarios though. The assertion the "left" don't like agriculture, I am not sure quite what the evidence is for that, however notwithstanding that I would put it to you that Agric shares may be equally vulnerable regardless of who is in power.
The dairy boom is rapidly cooling off
with dairy income being reduced by $ 4 billon
EU production quotas finishing next year, they can produce what they want and it could flood the international market,
Dislocation in highly leveraged dairy farmers with 10% holding 90% of the debt.

Difficult economic times loom, I don't envy John Keys task in managing this

[iceman]

BP
very comprehensive review, well done.
I tend to disagree on some scenarios though. The assertion the "left" don't like agriculture, I am not sure quite what the evidence is for that, however notwithstanding that I would put it to you that Agric shares may be equally vulnerable regardless of who is in power.
The dairy boom is rapidly cooling off
with dairy income being reduced by $ 4 billon
EU production quotas finishing next year, they can produce what they want and it could flood the international market,
Dislocation in highly leveraged dairy farmers with 10% holding 90% of the debt.

Difficult economic times loom, I don't envy John Keys task in managing this

So I assume from this post Sgt P that much like Chris Trotter, you have given up any hope of a
Labour lead Government after the election !?

[Sgt Pepper]

So I assume from this post Sgt P that much like Chris Trotter, you have given up any hope of a
Labour lead Government after the election !?

Yes Iceman, its seems highly unlikely, John Key is very popular and I don't think there is a desire for change. However strange things can happen, if you are interested google the 1970 British General election, all the polls consistently showed Harold Wilson and Labour way out in front, and what happened ..the Conservatives won.

[elZorro]

Yes Iceman, its seems highly unlikely, John Key is very popular and I don't think there is a desire for change. However strange things can happen, if you are interested google the 1970 British General election, all the polls consistently showed Harold Wilson and Labour way out in front, and what happened ..the Conservatives won.

Been out and about putting signs up for a chosen party, and in the appropriate suburbs there wasn't much accord for voting National. In fact we asked one household if they were voting Labour this year, and the reply was "We're not National". Some who have not voted for a while were encouraged to get into it.

[BlackPeter]

BP
very comprehensive review, well done.
I tend to disagree on some scenarios though. The assertion the "left" don't like agriculture, I am not sure quite what the evidence is for that, however notwithstanding that I would put it to you that Agric shares may be equally vulnerable regardless of who is in power.
The dairy boom is rapidly cooling off
with dairy income being reduced by $ 4 billon
EU production quotas finishing next year, they can produce what they want and it could flood the international market,
Dislocation in highly leveraged dairy farmers with 10% holding 90% of the debt.

Difficult economic times loom, I don't envy John Keys task in managing this

Hi SP, Thank you for the feedback. I definitely agree with your assessment on the macro economic threats for agriculture (even if I don't see all of them yet as done deal) - and yes, they will bite (if they do) with any government to come.

The reasons I think that the Left would be in NZ less positive for agriculture are:

(1) basically all farming dominated regions in NZ vote strongly National, which means that Labour / Green have little representation in these districts. Put it the other way around: Labour and Green represent mainly urban areas (not just, but including South Auckland and Christchurch East) and both have first to look after the interests of their voters (i.e. workers, union representatives, beneficiaries, government funded academics including teachers, policy analysts and other bureaucrats, etc.). Given that these groups need a lot of love and given that their interests are often mutually exclusive from the interest of farmers is it in my view unlikely that the Left will have a lot of resources left (excuse the pun) for farmers.

(2) The Greens put clearly higher priority on "man-untouched" environment, no matter what the cost to country, jobs and agriculture - they even requested to let the recently storm felled trees on the West Coast rot instead of creating some very sustainable jobs by turning them into valuable resources (without damaging anything). Expect from them the introduction of carbon tax (including fart-tax) to strangle our agriculture. As well - while I support the cleaning up of our rivers (and agree, some farmers are really irresponsible, but they could be already punished using existing law, if our councils would bother), I would be concerned that a Green / Left government in charge would love to play with their new found power muscles and put in the breaks for our agriculture in really hard to please their main clientele (talk e.g. fertilizer, water allocation, ...).

Do you agree?

[westerly]

Does that not also apply the other way around? Don't see to many "I heart JK" signs on the left either.

BC Not sure what “heart' means possibly hate. However I don't particularly like or dislike Key, Shearer, or Cuniffe for that matter or any other party leader apart from the Conservative who seems a little scary
The leader is usually a figurehead and needs party support.
Labour and the Greens seem to attract far more negative media publicity than National As a minor example - Key goes on holiday little comment, Cunliffe goes on holiday and it's front page news, all of it negative.
Guess it is just the rights fear of a backlash against their campaign to keep the peasants in line by lowering taxes and cutting Govt. services.

westerly

[elZorro]

BC Not sure what “heart' means possibly hate. However I don't particularly like or dislike Key, Shearer, or Cuniffe for that matter or any other party leader apart from the Conservative who seems a little scary
The leader is usually a figurehead and needs party support.
Labour and the Greens seem to attract far more negative media publicity than National As a minor example - Key goes on holiday little comment, Cunliffe goes on holiday and it's front page news, all of it negative.
Guess it is just the rights fear of a backlash against their campaign to keep the peasants in line by lowering taxes and cutting Govt. services.

westerly

Westerly, the latest outburst by someone, has many in the party looking to take extreme measures against the person behind it. They'll get booted out of the party if they can be found. But of course it has made great press, it's someone swearing a bit after supping on a beer most likely. Like I said earlier, David Cunliffe has been doing huge hours by all accounts, and after this short break he won't have a chance to rest properly until after the election.

[fungus pudding]

Westerly, the latest outburst by someone, has many in the party looking to take extreme measures against the person behind it. They'll get booted out of the party if they can be found. But of course it has made great press, it's someone swearing a bit after supping on a beer most likely. Like I said earlier, David Cunliffe has been doing huge hours by all accounts, and after this short break he won't have a chance to rest properly until after the election.

This is one bit of nonsense that Cunliffe doesn't deserve. With a demanding campaign coming up it's perfectly reasonable to have a 3 day break. What I don't understand is why the assumption it came from within Labour?

[slimwin]

Yes, I doubt many people really care he took a holiday. It's the perception of in house tension that will hurt the party.
Good on him for making time for his family.

[Sgt Pepper]

Hi SP, Thank you for the feedback. I definitely agree with your assessment on the macro economic threats for agriculture (even if I don't see all of them yet as done deal) - and yes, they will bite (if they do) with any government to come.

The reasons I think that the Left would be in NZ less positive for agriculture are:

(1) basically all farming dominated regions in NZ vote strongly National, which means that Labour / Green have little representation in these districts. Put it the other way around: Labour and Green represent mainly urban areas (not just, but including South Auckland and Christchurch East) and both have first to look after the interests of their voters (i.e. workers, union representatives, beneficiaries, government funded academics including teachers, policy analysts and other bureaucrats, etc.). Given that these groups need a lot of love and given that their interests are often mutually exclusive from the interest of farmers is it in my view unlikely that the Left will have a lot of resources left (excuse the pun) for farmers.

(2) The Greens put clearly higher priority on "man-untouched" environment, no matter what the cost to country, jobs and agriculture - they even requested to let the recently storm felled trees on the West Coast rot instead of creating some very sustainable jobs by turning them into valuable resources (without damaging anything). Expect from them the introduction of carbon tax (including fart-tax) to strangle our agriculture. As well - while I support the cleaning up of our rivers (and agree, some farmers are really irresponsible, but they could be already punished using existing law, if our councils would bother), I would be concerned that a Green / Left government in charge would love to play with their new found power muscles and put in the breaks for our agriculture in really hard to please their main clientele (talk e.g. fertilizer, water allocation, ...).

Do you agree?

It is correct that rural electorates voters predominantly vote for the National Party as they perceive that National best represents their interests and so a natural affinity has developed over the generations. This was not always so. Dairy Farmers in 1930s- 1950s were often strong Labour Party supporters as it was Labour which introduced price support/stabilisation for dairying in the 1930s. (Extraordinary as it may now seem in the 1950s dairy farms were being converted to sheep farms!) It is interesting that two Labour leaders had strong rural backgrounds, Bill Rowling was the son of a farmer, and represented a Rural electorate for his entire political career(Tasman). Helen Clark was the daughter of a Waikato Dairy Farmer, who incidentally was a chairman of the local branch of the National Party. So there are always outliers, one must be careful not to assume that because of someones, background, economic status, income etc that they vote in a certain way. In the 1990s the President of the Labour Party was Michael Hirschfeld, a very wealthy man who owned Mico Wakefield.
Regarding the Greens, to be quite honest I don't generally follow their policies. They have some highly talented MPs, Kennedy Graham is a standout and Kevein Hague has a superb background to be a Minister of health

[Cuzzie]

I think the decline in Labours support base is dangerous for NZ as a whole - for everyone. Only 25 voters in every 100 will vote for Labour with current polling and feel the MMP concept has gone off the rails. We need two major political parties, but sadly we only have one - National. Only 45 voters in a 100 won't be voting for National.

Labour is now only a minor party, all be it the biggest minor party. It will be interesting when all the parties get air time on our two major networks to see if Labour has reduced space for a party political broadcast. In the past it has been based on a proportion of popularity much to the dislike of the Greens and NZ First at the last election, will Labour suffer the same fate this time around - I don't know! If there are set rules then Labour could and would be very upset that they will only enjoy half the air time National will receive. Or it would be hugely unfair if Labour gets double the air time of lets say the Greens and the same amount of time as National if they are just a minor party. If that was the case, over half the voters(National voters) will face more than half the amount of air time for other political parties - that's not fair. Labour should have reduced time for their party political broadcasts & if they don't like that - get more votes and less partners.

The other big problem I have with Labour polling so poorly is - what if a left coalition wins on the night? It's on the cards and quite possible. Will Cunliffe be the P.M? Enter Winston Peters if he gets over 5% and if he doesn't get what he wants that victory will slip away. If Peters doesn't play up what cards will fat.com play? Hone could be the new Peters! Russel Norman won't stand back like last time after Labour turned their back on him, what will he say or do? It's a dogfight and well off the rails. Don't you think that maybe, just maybe this is why National is polling so well at the moment? The way I see it, this election is a win, win, win for National voters if they win or lose. How will five waring coalition partners govern a fractured Government? How will legislation get past?
Will all the promises Cunliffe made bankrupt the country for generations? Add the other four parties and their sweeteners into the mix and we could be a 3rd world Nation within five years. It's a soap opera. Either way are we are seeing the death of Labour as we know it? If I was a Labour supporter, I would be furious at those making the power plays within their ranks right now.


Please make Labour strong again for the sake of our country. Their weakness is ours as a whole.

[winner69]

Claudette seems to be have a bit of wasted space

Hope Nats a bit more careful in ranking the next party list

[fungus pudding]

Claudette seems to be have a bit of wasted space

Hope Nats a bit more careful in ranking the next party list

They certainly do. She was a shocker. Her appearance on Back-benches last week was the first I'd really seen of her, and I'm sure all viewers knew it would be the last.

[fungus pudding]

LOL ... Remember who she replaced tho ... MP Aaron Gilmore ... Another shocker!

No doubt those two nice (very) young men from the tobacco lobby will be far better [snigger, snigger]

There is a fellow standing in English's seat who is an absolute winner. Worked for a tobacco company. Who is the other?

[winner69]

There is a fellow standing in English's seat who is an absolute winner. Worked for a tobacco company. Who is the other?

Probably Chris Bishop

[Cuzzie]

They certainly do. She was a shocker. Her appearance on Back-benches last week was the first I'd really seen of her, and I'm sure all viewers knew it would be the last. She certainly was. She was gay as well, more suited to Labour one would think - anyway gone now and good thing too.
National trim their deadwood, if Labour did that would there be a tree left standing?:)

[neopoleII]

just saw something on the news about some tv folks taking the wee's out of colin craig about the way he walks..... sort of like c3po of starwars.
...... and its the second time on tv that the wee's have been taken out of his gait.....
all good humor i guess...... picking on handicaps in a public and political way......
so i am looking forward to the wee's taken out of the likes of Mojo Mathers....... now that would cause a political uproar to those that can hear.
but alas there are politically ""correct"" handicaps and "no rules" handicaps......
When i was young..... i was a stutterer ....... my mind worked ok, just the output part was faulty....... but it is a fair game wee taking handicap..... sadly.....

i wonder if the left wing voters and their staunch spin doctors will continue to wee over handicap folks?......... even though i saw mr whale somewhere on that tv segment....... and the sound was off ..... so cant really comment on what was said........ just saw the c3p0 moves.
just goes to show what the quality of NZ's political parties are........
imagine a potential wheel chair bound person running for prime minister ???
the left wheel of society would have a field day.

so anyway....... back to the real story..... the nastie nats and hero cunliffe and saviors the greens,

politiks..... makes me laugh.

[BlackPeter]

OK - I guess David Cunliffe had already enough flak and I start to be sorry for the guy ... but than it sort of feels he is asking for it:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10296677/Cunliffe-I-m-going-to-let-people-in?cid=edm:stuff:dailyheadlines

With the Left running away from him in droves it sounds like he is now embarking to find his support under the church going population ...

[elZorro]

OK - I guess David Cunliffe had already enough flak and I start to be sorry for the guy ... but than it sort of feels he is asking for it:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10296677/Cunliffe-I-m-going-to-let-people-in?cid=edm:stuff:dailyheadlines

With the Left running away from him in droves it sounds like he is now embarking to find his support under the church going population ...

That's not what I got from the interview and the video. He looks to be very straight-up to me, and that's how he appeared in person too. He presented well on TV this morning, but of course the reporters are not giving him credit for any other words that he speaks, they just play the very short clips that put him in a poor light, if taken out of context. Hardly fair, but he's getting the hang of it. Every word he uses from now on, will be carefully checked over by the media, and the voters. It's a very tough job, being a leader.

[artemis]

That's not what I got from the interview and the video. He looks to be very straight-up to me, and that's how he appeared in person too. He presented well on TV this morning, but of course the reporters are not giving him credit for any other words that he speaks, they just play the very short clips that put him in a poor light, if taken out of context. Hardly fair, but he's getting the hang of it. Every word he uses from now on, will be carefully checked over by the media, and the voters. It's a very tough job, being a leader.

I try to listen objectively to what Mr Cunliffe says but it ain't easy. As they say, trust once lost is lost forever. OK, maybe not forever, but he has trust baggage now and that will continue to drag him down.

[blackcap]

You could not make this up. Yesterday in the house....

Cunliffe calls his government "the Gaybour government...."

[blackcap]

On a more serious note, I have been thinking about our MMP system and am concerned that there are a few flaws. For instance to promote democracy MMP gives smaller parties a chance to participate. Good. But as a voter who may for instance vote for Conservative, Mana, Act, NZF etc I am turned off by the cold fact that my vote will be totally wasted if my party do not achieve the 5% threshold. Therefore I do not vote for said minor party. Would it not be more equitable if I could have a conditional vote. I mean this. I vote Conservative/Mana/Act/NZF, but if they do not gain a seat or representation then I want my vote to go to National/Labour. Would that not give more incentive for voters to vote for a "minor" party and thus give them more of a chance along the way? Just musing out loud here and know that my example has circular inferences that may be difficult to compute but int his day and age of computers and spreadsheets it should not be too difficult.

[fungus pudding]

On a more serious note, I have been thinking about our MMP system and am concerned that there are a few flaws. For instance to promote democracy MMP gives smaller parties a chance to participate. Good. But as a voter who may for instance vote for Conservative, Mana, Act, NZF etc I am turned off by the cold fact that my vote will be totally wasted if my party do not achieve the 5% threshold. Therefore I do not vote for said minor party. Would it not be more equitable if I could have a conditional vote. I mean this. I vote Conservative/Mana/Act/NZF, but if they do not gain a seat or representation then I want my vote to go to National/Labour. Would that not give more incentive for voters to vote for a "minor" party and thus give them more of a chance along the way? Just musing out loud here and know that my example has circular inferences that may be difficult to compute but int his day and age of computers and spreadsheets it should not be too difficult.

We've had MMP for 6 election cycles now, yet only a minority of people understand it. Anymore complicated would be disastrous. I reckon if it were widely understood the 2011 referendum would have given us the supplementary member option; but no - MMP was picked with its requirement for 120 MPs, immediately followed by howls of protest about too many MPs.
I remember Kerre Whatshername on talkback expressing amusement about the number of callers who rang in to say they had voted for Winston but didn't have a clue where all the other NZ 1st MPs came from or how they got in. So while your idea has merit in theory, in practise the outcome might be terrifying.

[Snapper]

On a more serious note, I have been thinking about our MMP system and am concerned that there are a few flaws. For instance to promote democracy MMP gives smaller parties a chance to participate. Good. But as a voter who may for instance vote for Conservative, Mana, Act, NZF etc I am turned off by the cold fact that my vote will be totally wasted if my party do not achieve the 5% threshold. Therefore I do not vote for said minor party. Would it not be more equitable if I could have a conditional vote. I mean this. I vote Conservative/Mana/Act/NZF, but if they do not gain a seat or representation then I want my vote to go to National/Labour. Would that not give more incentive for voters to vote for a "minor" party and thus give them more of a chance along the way? Just musing out loud here and know that my example has circular inferences that may be difficult to compute but int his day and age of computers and spreadsheets it should not be too difficult.

We had the opportunity to pick STV (single transferable vote, which the Aussies use) but the referendum result was for MMP. Big mistake IMO. No wasted votes, no list MPs...lost opportunity.

[BlackPeter]

On a more serious note, I have been thinking about our MMP system and am concerned that there are a few flaws. For instance to promote democracy MMP gives smaller parties a chance to participate. Good. But as a voter who may for instance vote for Conservative, Mana, Act, NZF etc I am turned off by the cold fact that my vote will be totally wasted if my party do not achieve the 5% threshold. Therefore I do not vote for said minor party. Would it not be more equitable if I could have a conditional vote. I mean this. I vote Conservative/Mana/Act/NZF, but if they do not gain a seat or representation then I want my vote to go to National/Labour. Would that not give more incentive for voters to vote for a "minor" party and thus give them more of a chance along the way? Just musing out loud here and know that my example has circular inferences that may be difficult to compute but int his day and age of computers and spreadsheets it should not be too difficult.

Probably the best idea I heard so far about how we could improve MMP and make it more fair. Yes, it will require another tick-box on the polling paper, but how hard can it be for voters to understand "in case your first choice doesn't make it over the 5% (or whatever) hurdle, which party would be your second choice instead?

You have my vote ...

[fungus pudding]

We had the opportunity to pick STV (single transferable vote, which the Aussies use) but the referendum result was for MMP. Big mistake IMO. No wasted votes, no list MPs...lost opportunity.

Nothing about Aussie politics or their electoral system should be copied. Bad government is to blame for all their woes.

[Jay]

Two things about our MMP system I don't like - the coat tails - get 1 electoral seat and then get a share of the seats according to the % received even though the party did not get 5%
and a List MP leaves the party/gets kicked out - should be next man/woman from the party list brought in- not becoming an independent MP

Views may change if Hone.com get in

Just my 2cents worth

[Cuzzie]

Are all Nasties like you? I'd like to think that was just dam straight talk, nothing wrong with that is there belg? After all, normal people must have rights too.


BTW, I just want to say I proud, I'm proud to be a straight male & make no apologies for the fact.

[westerly]

I


BTW, I just want to say I proud, I'm proud to be a straight male & make no apologies for the fact.

Is that as in straight man or comedians stooge?

westerly

[elZorro]

Greek, BOP, blogged in April:


You only have to look at The Herald to realise bias is alive and living. As for Gower, if that guy leaned right any further he will fall over.

We need, before this election, some unbiased, factual commentary. Ask the hard questions please, someone.

We have, at the moment, Gower, Hosking, Henry, Armstrong, O'Sullivan, Dann all putting their weight behind National. That's all I can think of, off-hand. Other than left-wing blogs, who else is there.

With whale-oil being Key's little 'boy' and then using that info, it becomes ever darker.

I can't wait for the day that someone deals with policies rather than personalities.

[Major von Tempsky]

You missed that most of the population is also putting their weight behind National :-)

[elZorro]

You missed that most of the population is also putting their weight behind National :-)

Reminds me of that famous quote (fibbing, just fell over this)


Reason and Ignorance, the opposites of each other, influence the great bulk of mankind. If either of these can be rendered sufficiently extensive in a country, the machinery of Government goes easily on. Reason obeys itself; and Ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
~ Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man

[elZorro]

In 2008, National made it back into power by swallowing all sorts of dead fish in the leadup to the election. Bland, inoffensive policies in the main, designed to appeal to everyone and leave a small target to attack. They had no real policy to cope with the GFC, that was obvious. Here we are, nearly six years later, and their receipts don't meet their expenses. They are still running a deficit. It's like an IPO which has not delivered.

This 'rock-star economy' can't even keep people in old jobs that have evolved here in the provinces for ages. Innovation, being careful with quality control or the technical side of manufacturing, product safety, staff safety, these are all areas where the government should have an influence.


http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/families-struggle-following-fonterra-job-cuts-labour-6035891

[fungus pudding]

In 2008, National made it back into power by swallowing all sorts of dead fish in the leadup to the election. Bland, inoffensive policies in the main, designed to appeal to everyone and leave a small target to attack. They had no real policy to cope with the GFC, that was obvious. Here we are, nearly six years later, and their receipts don't meet their expenses. They are still running a deficit. It's like an IPO which has not delivered.

This 'rock-star economy' can't even keep people in old jobs that have evolved here in the provinces for ages. Innovation, being careful with quality control or the technical side of manufacturing, product safety, staff safety, these are all areas where the government should have an influence.


http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/families-struggle-following-fonterra-job-cuts-labour-6035891


And Labour's alternative is a man who has left a trail of financial wreckage and creditors in his wake. A failure in every way.

[Harvey Specter]

In 2008, National made it back into power by swallowing all sorts of dead fish in the leadup to the election. Bland, inoffensive policies in the main, designed to appeal to everyone and leave a small target to attack. They had no real policy to cope with the GFC, that was obvious. Here we are, nearly six years later, and their receipts don't meet their expenses. They are still running a deficit. It's like an IPO which has not delivered.IF anything, their plan worked too well, resulting in us having one of the (the?) highest official cash rates in the world which has had a negative effect on our currency (which has been great for imports which is ideal during a a period of deficits).

You don't need big, bold policies to be successful.

[Cuzzie]

Is that as in straight man or comedians stooge?

westerlyYou may think so westerly, I say look at the polls. There is a good reason Labour is where it is right now & I half expect an apology for a certain somebody for being a one man comedy act.

What is with all these apologies anyway. I think D.C is trying too hard to do the right thing and ends up blowing everything out of proportion. He just needs to relax a bit, fire the moron pulling his strings, be honest for once, be himself and watch the results improve. Labour leaders have been over negative geared since the beginning of the H.C reign. If only they could be more positive about any little thing or admit how good the current N.Z Govt. has done since 2008 & they have, and concentrate on how they could do it better by tweaking this or that, they may have more voters believing them. But nah, they knock everything, absolutely every dam thing & we see that here with the likes of EZ & belg. So one eyed that they actually end up causing more damage, because nobody believes a thing they say. I don't believe a word Cunliffe says & most people who will be voting shortly agrees with that. There lies the problem.


Labour will implode unless they stop the negative within them.

[Harvey Specter]

Um ... What about the fact that unemployment hasn't really moved after six years? Or the fact that NZ Inc is more indebted than ever? Or that poverty levels has been steadily increasing?

It would seem you don't need big, bold policies to be woefully unsuccessful either.We did a lot better than other OECD countries that tried big bold policies. I think now is the time for a something a bit bolder as our high dollar is now effecting the recovery in our unemployment rate, whereas the likes of the US are rebounding well based on zero cost debt (they do rick bubble scenarios when there interest rates start increasing - cheap debt is how the GFC started in the first place).

[winner69]

OMG belg ......it's not Debs ....her name is Debra

[BlackPeter]

Only if you read the sound-bites from media. Something from memory you've admitted to doing?

Why not assimilate the message rather than the second-hand bollocks from people whose motives you'll probably never discern??

Hi Belg,

give me one piece of evidence that the Left isn't running away from Cunliffe. l guess, just look at the recent polls . If we add all the left parties together, than they still have something like 35% (give or take). However the same polls say that only 9% of all voters prefer Cunliffe as Prime Minister. What happened to the other 26% who plan to vote Left, but don't want Cunliffe? Would be keen to get your explanation for this phenomena , if this is not the Left running away from Cunliffe, what is it then?

[Sgt Pepper]

Evidence please. TIA.

Belg

FP really doesn't like David Parker I have tried to tease out the details before but to no avail. I suspect that if David Parker became a very successful MOF, with consistent surpluses, low unemployment , etc, he still wouldn't have anything good to say about him.
BUT if David Parker was a National man ....all would be forgiven and he would be lauded, you see I think FP is just a teeny bit politically myopic.

[fungus pudding]

Belg

FP really doesn't like David Parker I have tried to tease out the details before but to no avail. I suspect that if David Parker became a very successful MOF, with consistent surpluses, low unemployment , etc, he still wouldn't have anything good to say about him.
BUT if David Parker was a National man ....all would be forgiven and he would be lauded, you see I think FP is just a teeny bit politically myopic.

No I do not like David Parker. He is not a popular man at all. I am not a National fan to the point of liking all their MPs. There are certainly a couple I would not support at all. I would certainly not support Parker no matter what party he stood for. Matter of fact I dislike some of National's policies and several of their actions. I will vote National this time, but I always use my vote against the party I think would do the most harm. Not for any party. I have, believe it or not, voted labour several times. Your accusation that I am myopic is ridiculous. Look in a mirror for that one. I follow policies - not parties. However having said that I should add the current crop of Labour hopefuls are directionless and useless, reminiscent of Rowling and his mob.

[Cuzzie]

Its a fine act. Has me in stitches with every post. Keep up the fine work, Cuz. belg, Just like Bryce Edwards said - The sorry Labour Party (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11297964). If you have not read it, do so. It's got me singing to the turn of, "I'm glad I'm not a Kennedy" - "I'm glad I'm not a Labour Fanboy".



I hope that gets you in stitches, I know it did for me. Life's good, I'm happy. :)

[Sgt Pepper]

I see on the news Gerry Brownlee deliberately breached airport security this morning and is in serous trouble. he has offered his resignation and JK declined. I am sure after serous consideration. YEAH RIGHT

[fungus pudding]

I see on the news Gerry Brownlee deliberately breached airport security this morning and is in serous trouble. he has offered his resignation and JK declined. I am sure after serous consideration. YEAH RIGHT


Sure of what after serious consideration? That Brownlee was concealing a bomb or something? Finish the sentence - I'm intrigued.

[fungus pudding]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11298499

Yet another example of the arrogance of this lot. Geez. He's the transport minister! ... But one rule for them and another for the rest of us. I wonder if he used the "Do you know who I am?" line when he bullying the guy to let him through the door. And who were the other two people?

The other two people would have been Barack Obama and Tiger Woods. Yes, he used the line 'do you know who I am' and just to add emphasis, punched the guy's lights out before further flattening the poor (by now unconscious) man by sitting on him. Anything else you want to know?
Aside from that, what do you mean one rule for them? Who is 'them'? I've done the same thing and I'm not 'one of them', but I only got a tune-up; didn't make the papers though.

[Cuzzie]

Here is Cunliffe's next apology, I'm sorry, I'm sorry for boycotting the leaders' debate against John Key on TV1 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11298450). Don't apologise D.C, that could be a smart move on your part. Kind of like Bangladesh not wanting to play Rugby against the All Blacks.
You have just got to laugh. He claims it is because of Mike Hosking. Harden up D.C for goodness sake - you are so precious aren't you.

[winner69]

I reckon the 'guy on the other side of the door' is in deep trouble .....and out of a job

[elZorro]

Here is Cunliffe's next apology, I'm sorry, I'm sorry for boycotting the leaders' debate against John Key on TV1 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11298450). Don't apologise D.C, that could be a smart move on your part. Kind of like Bangladesh not wanting to play Rugby against the All Blacks.
You have just got to laugh. He claims it is because of Mike Hosking. Harden up D.C for goodness sake - you are so precious aren't you.

He hasn't backed out of the debate, he's making a very valid point that this close to the election, having a presenter that is so pro-National isn't fair. Just like the speaker of the house has allowed National to get away with heaps.

[fungus pudding]

He hasn't backed out of the debate, he's making a very valid point that this close to the election, having a presenter that is so pro-National isn't fair. Just like the speaker of the house has allowed National to get away with heaps.


Cunliffe just can't get it right. Apologising for a 3 day break yesterday was not what a leader does. Or apologising for wearing a red scarf too often, apologising once again for his sorry for being a man comment, and Allah knows what else. But that was yesterday. Today's he's whingeing about a debate. Can you imagine Key moaning about the debate that Campbell will moderate? Of course you can't. Every time Cunliffe speaks he portrays himself as a weak man. That is precisely why he just doesn't rate in the preferred P.M. polls

[neopoleII]

debs with mates?

http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whaleoil.co.nz%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F06%2F0-29601600-12659.preview.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whaleoil.co.nz%2F2014%2 F06%2Fon-deborah-hill-cone-being-trained-and-skilled-and-awards%2F&h=347&w=520&tbnid=Hz5SaqAawvEuvM%3A&zoom=1&docid=5He3n_t-UP_5aM&ei=lrjQU8qdMdG58gWU-oCACQ&tbm=isch&ved=0CCMQMygDMAM&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=945&page=1&start=0&ndsp=33

hope the link works.

[slimwin]

I agree with Cunliffe on that one. Mike Hosking is a clown and shouldn't be let near a political debate. Either should Cambell. How about somebody with actual knowledge and an ability to judicate a debate.

And as for Gerry, that's at least as bad as making your driver drive carelessly/fast when late...

[neopoleII]

""He hasn't backed out of the debate, he's making a very valid point that this close to the election, having a presenter that is so pro-National isn't fair. Just like the speaker of the house has allowed National to get away with heaps. ""

I agree with the first part....... so who would be a fair MC for the debate?
maybe we as a group on sharetrader could make a recommendation to tvnz that is fair and even?

[neopoleII]

heres are contender......
ewen gilmour.......
he is non political...... he draws crowds from all walks of life.
he is well spoken, educated and doesnt take political double talk from anyone.
he can ask the left or right a question and expect an answer,
he can listen, but can butt in and say..... please answer the question.....
he has an audience with poor folks, non voters, older folks, immigrants, and general kiwis
and is respected.
yes..... he is a comedian by trade...... but is also a host for important things like
safer driving on our roads, is a registered celebrant and a voted in city councilor in the franklin district.
most kiwis know who he is and respect his kiwi AND non political views, ALONG with his "no crap" attitude.
with him being MC it would also draw huge tv viewership.

thoughts??

[elZorro]

heres are contender......
ewen gilmour.......
he is non political...... he draws crowds from all walks of life.
he is well spoken, educated and doesnt take political double talk from anyone.
he can ask the left or right a question and expect an answer,
he can listen, but can butt in and say..... please answer the question.....
he has an audience with poor folks, non voters, older folks, immigrants, and general kiwis
and is respected.
yes..... he is a comedian by trade...... but is also a host for important things like
safer driving on our roads, is a registered celebrant and a voted in city councilor in the franklin district.
most kiwis know who he is and respect his kiwi AND non political views, ALONG with his "no crap" attitude.
with him being MC it would also draw huge tv viewership.

thoughts??

Yep, that would be fun, or someone like Te Radar. Although horses for courses, it's a tough job being an MC for a debate. Kim Hill is good, but likes butting in, and she is probably too pro-Labour for some on here.

[winner69]

debs with mates?

http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whaleoil.co.nz%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F06%2F0-29601600-12659.preview.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whaleoil.co.nz%2F2014%2 F06%2Fon-deborah-hill-cone-being-trained-and-skilled-and-awards%2F&h=347&w=520&tbnid=Hz5SaqAawvEuvM%3A&zoom=1&docid=5He3n_t-UP_5aM&ei=lrjQU8qdMdG58gWU-oCACQ&tbm=isch&ved=0CCMQMygDMAM&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=945&page=1&start=0&ndsp=33

hope the link works.

Ha ha ... which one is Belg?

Reckon the jovial one on the right

[winner69]

debs with mates?

http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whaleoil.co.nz%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F06%2F0-29601600-12659.preview.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whaleoil.co.nz%2F2014%2 F06%2Fon-deborah-hill-cone-being-trained-and-skilled-and-awards%2F&h=347&w=520&tbnid=Hz5SaqAawvEuvM%3A&zoom=1&docid=5He3n_t-UP_5aM&ei=lrjQU8qdMdG58gWU-oCACQ&tbm=isch&ved=0CCMQMygDMAM&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=945&page=1&start=0&ndsp=33

hope the link works.

Have you got a photo of Belg and Debs helping out at the City Mission Xmas lunch?

[elZorro]

Here's some secrets the press don't seem to have gotten a hold of. Facts I reckon.

https://www.labour.org.nz/sites/default/files/issues/140722-speech-rd.pdf

[Cuzzie]

He hasn't backed out of the debate, he's making a very valid point that this close to the election, having a presenter that is so pro-National isn't fair. Just like the speaker of the house has allowed National to get away with heaps.Well I suppose you're right this time, there goes 54% of the voting population. Maybe we can get one of your boys running it, EZ as. Key would still have nothing to apologise for during, or after the debate. D.C's best chance is not saying anything, it's a no brainer!!!
I bet he he very, very nervous going head to head with J.K.

[elZorro]

Well I suppose you're right this time, there goes 54% of the voting population. Maybe we can get one of your boys running it, EZ as. Key would still have nothing to apologise for during, or after the debate. D.C's best chance is not saying anything, it's a no brainer!!!
I bet he he very, very nervous going head to head with J.K.

DC is a quick thinker, he was a diplomat, which means he'll be more than a match for an umming and ahhing PM.

[Cuzzie]

DC is a quick thinker, he was a diplomat, which means he'll be more than a match for an umming and ahhing PM.EZ, that's just your one eye open - one eye closed letting you down again. You are right in a way I guess though, for somebody that makes as many slip-ups as D.C does, he would need to think very quickly indeed.

[slimwin]

I agree cuzzie. Underestimate jk in a debate at your peril. I'm sure dc at least knows that.
How about guyon Espinar as an adjudicator?

[fungus pudding]

Concur. Hosking is a intellectual lightweight that appeals to the masses as they think he's funny. Campbell might be a bit better but Key wouldn't have it.



You must know some strange people. The only one I know of who thinks Hosking is funny, is Hosking. As for Campbell - I saw Key demolish him not so long ago. Delightful stuff. Campbell, like Hosking, is hard to for me to watch and certainly biased. Nevertheless Key will appear on the debate on channel 3 with Campbell at the helm. He hasn't bothered moaning about it.

[Harvey Specter]

Campbell might be a bit better but Key wouldn't have it. Campbell will be doing TV3's version wont he?

Key wont complain. Apparently National is complaining that Key should be up against Labour and Greens (I assume sharing the time) to indicate that is what you will be getting if you vote left.

[Cuzzie]

Barry Soper? Could be a good choice. Maybe Soper for TV1 and Espinar for TV3. Campbell & Hosking count each other out, but then if you have both of them for each network - that makes it fair in a way.

[Cuzzie]

Campbell will be doing TV3's version wont he?

Key wont complain. Apparently National is complaining that Key should be up against Labour and Greens (I assume sharing the time) to indicate that is what you will be getting if you vote left. Which brings me back to; Should National get half of all the available time for political broadcasts. It's only fair.

[fungus pudding]

Did you support Noriega? Marcos? You seem to be in love with "hard man" style leadership.

Keep playing the man, FP. Others are watching the game.

The hardest leader seen in the last few decades, and especially to Campbell, who she called a little creep, was Helen Clark.

[Sgt Pepper]

The hardest leader seen in the last few decades, and especially to Campbell, who she called a little creep, was Helen Clark.

FP
Don't forget in the background for Helen Clark was her chief of staff, the formidable Heather Simpson. I remember her as an Economics lecturer, very smart. Michael Cullen was also there

[fungus pudding]

FP
Don't forget in the background for Helen Clark was her chief of staff, the formidable Heather Simpson. I remember her as an Economics lecturer, very smart.


What has that got to do with anything?

[Sgt Pepper]

What has that got to do with anything?

Charming
My point was that effective leaders have good people in the background, as John Key has with the highly regarded Wayne Eagles

[elZorro]

I like the choice of Guyon Espiner too, Slimwin. Good idea.

[Cuzzie]

Cunliffe's Hosking debate turn-around. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11299118) Check this out. How many times does one have to let us know he is a total clown. Somebody buy him a diary so he can keep account of what he says, his memory is like a sieve. I wait with baited breath for yet another apology.

I'm going to call it now and state that - "D.C is hopelessly out of his league" ... a total disaster, but some on here thing the sun shines where it should not beam from - you no where. Are they building sand castles in a tornado? Clearly and it's fun watching them try.


Another good day is it not? :D:D:D

[Cuzzie]

belg, this is a free gift from me to you seein as how you showed soooo much interest in it with your sign-offs each post.


http://www.teamkey.co.nz/app

BTW, don't forget to wave. :)

[westerly]

Cunliffe's Hosking debate turn-around. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11299118) Check this out. How many times does one have to let us know he is a total clown. Somebody buy him a diary so he can keep account of what he says, his memory is like a sieve. I wait with baited breath for yet another apology.

I'm going to call it now and state that - "D.C is hopelessly out of his league" ... a total disaster, but some on here thing the sun shines where it should not beam from - you no where. Are they building sand castles in a tornado? Clearly and it's fun watching them try.


Another good day is it not? :D:D:D

Read it again. Cunliffe agreed to a debate on housing affordability. Key turned it down.

westerly

[Cuzzie]

Read it again. Cunliffe agreed to a debate on housing affordability. Key turned it down.

westerlyNo westerly, that would be just you reading with only one eye open. Here is an exact copy & paste from the article so your one eye can compute properly - "After Mr Cunliffe agreed to the challenge, Mr Key retracted it saying he had been referring to the usual TV debates during the election campaign rather than a special one-off". So John Key did not turn anything down but suggested it would be better suited for the usual TV debates which we have now approached have we not?

Labour leader David Cunliffe told NewstalkZB in April that - he would be happy to debate Prime Minister John Key "anytime, any place, anywhere, I'll even do it on Mike Hosking's show." Anytime, any place, anywhere, even do it on Mike Hosking's show is - Now, at TV1, at the TV1 studio with Mike Hosking.


Anything else I can help you with westerly?

ONLY TOO PLEASED TO HELP.:)

[elZorro]

No westerly, that would be just you reading with only one eye open. Here is an exact copy & paste from the article so your one eye can compute properly - "After Mr Cunliffe agreed to the challenge, Mr Key retracted it saying he had been referring to the usual TV debates during the election campaign rather than a special one-off". So John Key did not turn anything down but suggested it would be better suited for the usual TV debates which we have now approached have we not?

Labour leader David Cunliffe told NewstalkZB in April that - he would be happy to debate Prime Minister John Key "anytime, any place, anywhere, I'll even do it on Mike Hosking's show." Anytime, any place, anywhere, even do it on Mike Hosking's show is - Now, at TV1, at the TV1 studio with Mike Hosking.


Anything else I can help you with westerly?

ONLY TOO PLEASED TO HELP.:)


National's weakest argument is about affordable housing. They don't have a plan which will help, and Labour does (Kiwibuild). It also boosts employment and training, and won't cost taxpayers anything either. It'll probably result in increased tax take, if anything.


No wonder John Key doesn't want a debate on that area alone.

[westerly]

[QUOTE=Cuzzie;493959] - "After Mr Cunliffe agreed to the challenge, Mr Key retracted it saying he had been referring to the usual TV debates during the election campaign rather than a special one-off". So John Key did not turn anything down but suggested it would be better suited for the usual TV debates which we have now approached have we not?

Hi Cussie, is retracted not turning it down? On a more current storm in a teacup it is nice to see National getting a bit of flak.Gerry Brownlee went thru an exit gate at Ch Ch airport to board a plane and all hell breaks loose in the media. It's not as if he is not easily recognisable. I have a bit of time for Brownlee is comment re the Ch Ch 'quake that most of the buildings were a lot of" old dungers"was spot on. They were an accident waiting to happen.

westerly

[Cuzzie]

[QUOTE=Cuzzie;493959] - "After Mr Cunliffe agreed to the challenge, Mr Key retracted it saying he had been referring to the usual TV debates during the election campaign rather than a special one-off". So John Key did not turn anything down but suggested it would be better suited for the usual TV debates which we have now approached have we not?

Hi Cussie, is retracted not turning it down? On a more current storm in a teacup it is nice to see National getting a bit of flak.Gerry Brownlee went thru an exit gate at Ch Ch airport to board a plane and all hell breaks loose in the media. It's not as if he is not easily recognisable. I have a bit of time for Brownlee is comment re the Ch Ch 'quake that most of the buildings were a lot of" old dungers"was spot on. They were an accident waiting to happen.

westerlyNot the way I read it wezterly, it is just retracted to the normal ~ i.e ~ during the election campaign rather than a special one-off. That's not backing off, that's saying I (John Key) have a country to run which I do for no salary as I donate it all to charity & a pending election campaign. You (David Cunliffe) do not donate your salary even though like me(John Key) you are a millionaire and have just got an election campaign to worry about. That been said, I (John Key) would accept your invitation to debate matters with Mike Hosking. Oh, wait a minute, you (David Cunliffe) have changed your mind.


I hope that is clear enough for you (wezterly) to understand. So do you?

[Cuzzie]

National's weakest argument is about affordable housing. They don't have a plan which will help, and Labour does (Kiwibuild). It also boosts employment and training, and won't cost taxpayers anything either. It'll probably result in increased tax take, if anything.


No wonder John Key doesn't want a debate on that area alone. Under H.C affordable housing just became a dream. National has dramatically slowed down the rise in house prices since HELENGRAD days. If what you say is true, then Labour is just going part way to fixing the biggest stuff up they made in their last tenure. EZ?

[elZorro]

Under H.C affordable housing just became a dream. National has dramatically slowed down the rise in house prices since HELENGRAD days. If what you say is true, then Labour is just going part way to fixing the biggest stuff up they made in their last tenure. EZ?

Under Helen Clark houses weren't unaffordable, more people were employed and as interest rates were higher, so was inflation. The GFC lowered house prices, that wasn't National. They have since nearly recovered. In Auckland, those with the deepest pockets get the houses, and of course saving a 20% deposit as required by National's (RB) policy is another poke in the guts for normal households.

I'm always banging on about National's inept handling of the economy, Cuzzie reckons HC left a $13bill bill for NZ. Of course that was the remaining long-term debt after the Labour terms to 2008. They'd paid off a lot more from when they got into office.

In the SST this morning, a Christchurch accountant called Cameron Preston, is reported on by Rob Stock. Here's some of his background, he's been getting the runaround from his insurers. http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/10003896/Stubborn-money-man-won-t-back-down

I admire this guy, he has single-handedly done some of the legwork that Labour should have been doing over the proposed small budget surplus National tells us all they'll be running next year. In advance of the Prefu (August19) where National will probably tell us there is to be a $372mill govt budget surplus out of an income of $70bill or so, he has calculated that if they had used more correct accounting in their books, it's more like a $3bill deficit.

Bill English has been using the secrecy provisions in the Public Finance Act to remove information from the periodic updates. He's done this seven times over the last three years. Once in 2012, twice in 2013, and three times so far in 2014. A disturbing trend.

Cameron Preston reckons that this surplus coupled with NZ's debt position, is too good to be true. The debt is still rising, for one.

Here are the three areas he's identified, where the govt is cooking the books.

1. They have capped their expenditure on the drainage reinstatement and road resealing in Christchurch at $1.8bill. The real cost will be at least $2.3bill, their estimate in 2013. CHCh council estimates the shortfall at $534mill.


2. Public accounts on the rebuild have been capitalised. Instead of rebuilding the convention centre, stadium and other areas for the city, they have decided they'll be Crown assets, to keep them off the budget books. So instead of capitalising $0.6bill in 2012, that figure has magically changed to $3.3bill. A difference of $2.7bill.

3. The govt has to top up any shortfall that EQC may have in paying out to the insured people. That shortfall is about $2bill at the moment. They refuse to admit this liability, therefore it's not on their books. Of course that position could change after the election. Meanwhile, people waiting for insurance payouts have to wait.

Note that these figures, which are all cooked legally, sort of, are all just in Christchurch. The govt, with help from treasury, can be doing this all over the place. Cameron has identified $5bill worth of evidence to distrust any small budget surplus National may put forward.

[artemis]

Under Helen Clark houses weren't unaffordable, more people were employed and as interest rates were higher, so was inflation. The GFC lowered house prices, that wasn't National. They have since nearly recovered. In Auckland, those with the deepest pockets get the houses, and of course saving a 20% deposit as required by National's (RB) policy is another poke in the guts for normal households.............

I think there is an issue with house prices in Auckland and Christchurch, but elsewhere in NZ not so much. And there are cheaper places in both cities, just check the big websites. Ever since I can remember people, especially young families, have found it hard to save a deposit without family help. Getting secure housing before starting a family, and starting off at the lower price end have always been good ways to begin. Not sure I have ever seen a media report on housing prices where there is a young couple featured, no children, both working, living frugally, saving hard.

Yes there are more people unemployed now, compared to the end of the last Labour government, around 50,000 more. What would the impact of that be on house affordability though?

House prices are of course only one aspect of affordability, though a rather important one. Check out the graph in the below link to see what has happened to house prices since 2003. Might not be what you expect.


https://www.reinz.co.nz/shadomx/apps/fms/fmsdownload.cfm?file_uuid=24EE3162-055A-4F54-99DA-5E3C54E038DB&siteName=reinz

[fungus pudding]

Correct me if I'm wrong ... but I can't recall Labour having any formal policy about housing affordability but I seem to recall National has made a big deal about it in the last two elections. And yet house prices just keep going up! ... Is this another National FAIL?

House prices go up and down. Many areas in NZ are turning into a buyers' market. Exceptions are Ch-ch for obvious reasons. Also Auckland, as it transitions from a city which can no longer provide an eighth acre section for every bod that wants to live there. Time will sort out Auckland along with acceptance of the inevitable high-rise/apartment living as many overseas cities have become. In spite of all the hot air from both main parties, all that can be done is freeing up more land for development. Hopefully such land will be sold on the open market. Any schemes to provide 'affordable housing' (whatever that means) can easily become a gift to the original purchaser if not offered to all comers. Suffice to say Auckland will never be cheap or as cheap as other cities - barring volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, meteor strikes, civil war, unknown plagues, and the Labour party.

[winner69]

Good on Hekia Parata being rewarded for stubbornly pissing off so many teachers ....no 7 is pretty high

Well done Hekia

Even more meritorious seeing you don't really meet the ethnic/gender profile of others on the list

[westerly]

[QUOTE=westerly;494051]Not the way I read it wezterly, it is just retracted to the normal ~ i.e ~ during the election campaign rather than a special one-off. That's not backing off, that's saying I (John Key) have a country to run which I do for no salary as I donate it all to charity & a pending election campaign. You (David Cunliffe) do not donate your salary even though like me(John Key) you are a millionaire and have just got an election campaign to worry about. That been said, I (John Key) would accept your invitation to debate matters with Mike Hosking. Oh, wait a minute, you (David Cunliffe) have changed your mind.


I hope that is clear enough for you (wezterly) to understand. So do you?

Cozzie, Got my s and z mixed up again! "Mr Key, named in this year's Rich List as worth $50 million, has not disclosed how much he gives to charity, or which charities benefit." Quote from the NBR. Probably the National Party if they are a charity. He is just a figurehead, not a dictator, I would hope Cabinet make the decisions while Key is "running the country"
As for Cunliffe I doubt his fortune is anywhere near Keys but it is irrelevant as to his ability to lead the Labour Party. Unless you expect all centre left politicians to be from the working classes.

Wezterly

[fungus pudding]

My point was that National made a massive song and dance about how they would come to the rescue ... As yet ... Nada ... Conclusion: another broken promise.



Developed in Auckland recently FP? .... Nope? ... Didn't think so. ... This is just one part of the issue. (discl: built 3 MHUs and 1 town house in the last six years. Sick and tired of it.)



Sounds a bit like the Genesis Energy share offer.

But as your love bro organised that you're fine with that scheme to ensure the rich got richer.

But not okay for it to go to someone who actually needs a place to live? Sounds Nastie to me.

Almost anybody in NZ can buy shares in all sorts of ventures. Electricity is nothing special. I have no idea why you think I like or love anybody, nor do I understand why you think you or anybody else should be able to buy as property below its value. P.S. I am not a property developer - never have been. It's a mugs' game.

[Cuzzie]

Under Helen Clark houses weren't unaffordable, more people were employed and as interest rates were higher, so was inflation. The GFC lowered house prices, that wasn't National. They have since nearly recovered. In Auckland, those with the deepest pockets get the houses, and of course saving a 20% deposit as required by National's (RB) policy is another poke in the guts for normal households.

I'm always banging on about National's inept handling of the economy, Cuzzie reckons HC left a $13bill bill for NZ. Of course that was the remaining long-term debt after the Labour terms to 2008. They'd paid off a lot more from when they got into office.

In the SST this morning, a Christchurch accountant called Cameron Preston, is reported on by Rob Stock. Here's some of his background, he's been getting the runaround from his insurers. http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/10003896/Stubborn-money-man-won-t-back-down

I admire this guy, he has single-handedly done some of the legwork that Labour should have been doing over the proposed small budget surplus National tells us all they'll be running next year. In advance of the Prefu (August19) where National will probably tell us there is to be a $372mill govt budget surplus out of an income of $70bill or so, he has calculated that if they had used more correct accounting in their books, it's more like a $3bill deficit.

Bill English has been using the secrecy provisions in the Public Finance Act to remove information from the periodic updates. He's done this seven times over the last three years. Once in 2012, twice in 2013, and three times so far in 2014. A disturbing trend.

Cameron Preston reckons that this surplus coupled with NZ's debt position, is too good to be true. The debt is still rising, for one.

Here are the three areas he's identified, where the govt is cooking the books.

1. They have capped their expenditure on the drainage reinstatement and road resealing in Christchurch at $1.8bill. The real cost will be at least $2.3bill, their estimate in 2013. CHCh council estimates the shortfall at $534mill.


2. Public accounts on the rebuild have been capitalised. Instead of rebuilding the convention centre, stadium and other areas for the city, they have decided they'll be Crown assets, to keep them off the budget books. So instead of capitalising $0.6bill in 2012, that figure has magically changed to $3.3bill. A difference of $2.7bill.

3. The govt has to top up any shortfall that EQC may have in paying out to the insured people. That shortfall is about $2bill at the moment. They refuse to admit this liability, therefore it's not on their books. Of course that position could change after the election. Meanwhile, people waiting for insurance payouts have to wait.

Note that these figures, which are all cooked legally, sort of, are all just in Christchurch. The govt, with help from treasury, can be doing this all over the place. Cameron has identified $5bill worth of evidence to distrust any small budget surplus National may put forward.Man I can feel your pain EZ, so much it is loud and clear. Your propaganda is on steriods & way over the top even by your standards. Maybe tone down your cool stories quite a bit and somebody might actually go half way to believing you. I see Cunliffe is down to 8% in the latest poll by TV1 for preferred P.M and one of them is you. That means 92 voters in 100 would not like to see him running the country & good thing too. Seems like most Kiwis don't believe the stuff you preach. Personal I stopped believing in fairy tales when I was two, you EZ? Maybe Pinocchio was one of your favorites? Mine was ... it was ... wait, actually it was nothing. I never liked fairy tales. True story BTW.

[Cuzzie]

[QUOTE=Cuzzie;494071]

Cozzie, Got my s and z mixed up again! "Mr Key, named in this year's Rich List as worth $50 million, has not disclosed how much he gives to charity, or which charities benefit." Quote from the NBR. Probably the National Party if they are a charity. He is just a figurehead, not a dictator, I would hope Cabinet make the decisions while Key is "running the country"
As for Cunliffe I doubt his fortune is anywhere near Keys but it is irrelevant as to his ability to lead the Labour Party. Unless you expect all centre left politicians to be from the working classes.

WezterlyWezterly, Westerly, special needs Westerly. Trust you to call me cussie, twice and when I return the favor you complain. Yep, you are a Labour supporter alright. Maybe WINS can give you a special benefit. As for Key Vs your, "I'm sorry for being a man", man - I'm just glad your man, or what ever he is, is not the feller I'm voting for. Easy as that really westerly.

This debate is, as far as I'm concerned a no debate due to National not having any opposition. The pain we hear for the left wing supporters is becoming more & more desperate every week. I feel their pain, I really do.
I'm glad I'm not a Kennedy - I'm glad I'm not a Labour fan-boy.


Life is great and the song of the day is - YouTube. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj2jWbDjVE4):)

[Cuzzie]

Labour's support has dropped in a further poll, down to 28 per cent in TVNZ's Colmar Brunton poll while leader David Cunliffe is back in single figures as preferred Prime Minister.
The poll on One News had Labour on 28 (down one) while National was at 52 per cent, up one point since the last poll a month ago and seemingly unaffected by a flurry of problems such as MP Claudette Hauiti's misspending on her Parliamentary charge card.
That would be enough for National to govern alone with 66 seats in Parliament. The centre-left bloc of Labour, the Green Party and internet Mana was well adrift, securing 52 seats between them.
The Green Party dropped two points down to 10 per cent, while internet Mana held steady at 2 per cent, enough to get three MPs into Parliament if Hone Harawira holds his Te Tai Tokerau electorate.
NZ First was at 4 per cent, just short of the 5 per cent threshold to get back into Parliament.

Mr Cunliffe hit just 8 per cent as preferred Prime Minister, down two points from the previous Colmar Brunton poll a month ago.
Last week Mr Cunliffe said he took responsibility for Labour's slide in the polls, a reflection of his series of gaffes and apologies for everything from taking a skiing holiday while Labour was plummeting in the polls and saying he was sorry for being a man while at a domestic violence conference.
Mr Key's popularity increased slightly over that time to 48 per cent.
The poll is similar to a string of others over the past fortnight, including last week's Herald DigiPoll which had Labour down four points to 26.5 per cent and National up 4.5 point to 55 per cent. The latest 3News Reid Research poll had Labour on 27 per cent and National on 49 per cent.
- NZ Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/) LOL:D:D:D

[Cuzzie]

So why is Cunliffe found wanting so often and why does he spend 12 hours a day apologizing? Because he bases his politics on this guy. Who, I hear you say? Well, the biggest left wing socialist leader on the planet . Here is 10 hours of lies on Youtube from this man: 36 Obama Lies for 10 Hours (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZJqRvMwdQg).


Help Cunliffe beat Obama's record - vote Labour.:cool:

[elZorro]

Man I can feel your pain EZ, so much it is loud and clear. Your propaganda is on steriods & way over the top even by your standards. Maybe tone down your cool stories quite a bit and somebody might actually go half way to believing you. I see Cunliffe is down to 8% in the latest poll by TV1 for preferred P.M and one of them is you. That means 92 voters in 100 would not like to see him running the country & good thing too. Seems like most Kiwis don't believe the stuff you preach. Personal I stopped believing in fairy tales when I was two, you EZ? Maybe Pinocchio was one of your favorites? Mine was ... it was ... wait, actually it was nothing. I never liked fairy tales. True story BTW.

Cuzzie, this is not propaganda, it's the lengths National goes to, to stay in office.

Here's the national debt now, with about $70,000mill being core govt debt. Your National mates racked up most of that.

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/newzealand

[Major von Tempsky]

The national debt rose for such worthy projects (as a Chch citizen ;-)) as buying, demolishing, repairing, building Christchurch properties and infrastructure and supporting society during the GFC. So Labour wouldn't have done those things?

[elZorro]

The national debt rose for such worthy projects (as a Chch citizen ;-)) as buying, demolishing, repairing, building Christchurch properties and infrastructure and supporting society during the GFC. So Labour wouldn't have done those things?

I've posted charts before showing Treasury's projections in 2008 for the GFC, in terms of a shallow budget deficit. Even adding in the earthquakes' destruction, National have borrowed a lot more than expected. They had to make up for a lower tax take, for one thing. However the lower tax take only benefitted the top few percent, the rest of the country paid the normal amount. GST went up.

Labour would of course been there to tidy up after the GFC etc. They would have also made sure that more of NZ was working all through it, and that any new manufacturing, for example, was on top of what we already had. They wouldn't have been moving to take out some manufacturing bases in NZ, like National did with the railway workshops.

National have been working to a script. The unemployment rate needed to go up, they wanted more overseas borrowing in place. These policy settings are designed to hold wages back, and continue moves to a more unequal NZ.

[fungus pudding]

Probably not via tax cuts for the rich and enormous borrowings!



The rich have never been given tax cuts. NZ has never had a wealth tax.

[fungus pudding]

Are you suggesting that the majority with incomes above $100,000 are poor? Of course you are aren't. Stop trying to fool people by nit-picking.



Wrong again. Aren't you getting tired of making such statements? You're making all Nasties look dumber than dirt! (Which they probably are.)

Your insistence that various people, whom you do not know, are nasty simply because they hold different political views is symptomatic of paranoia.

[fungus pudding]

LOL ... Thanks for your smokescreen oh wisest-of-the-wise.

Now back to your incorrect assertion (yawn, yet another one!) that "NZ has never had a wealth tax".

Perhaps you'd like to correct that statement so that Nasties out there don't take you as their all-knowledgeable-leader-of-stupid-soundbites. ;)

Your abusive tone gets a bit tiring.

[Major von Tempsky]

Factually, FP is correct.

Apart from rates, which are a wealth tax, NZ has never had a wealth tax. We have had confiscatory higher income taxes which drove our best and brightest entrepreneurs overseas.

[neopoleII]

I would suggest Estate duty and gift tax as a wealth tax.

[fungus pudding]

I would suggest Estate duty and gift tax as a wealth tax.

Fortunately we got rid of them.

[elZorro]

National does it again, a nod and wink to smaller coalition parties, something that Labour has not lowered themselves to since 1999, when it was for a good reason.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10320342/National-to-stick-with-ACT-UnitedFuture-and-Maori

[fungus pudding]

National does it again, a nod and wink to smaller coalition parties, something that Labour has not lowered themselves to since 1999, when it was for a good reason.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10320342/National-to-stick-with-ACT-UnitedFuture-and-Maori

The last referendum endorsed MMP - a system that relies on coalitions. There was plenty of warning that this would happen from the likes of Peter Shirtcliffe before the first referendum. It's what the public wanted. In the main it works, and Labour would do it as quick as a flash if it wasn't the risk of associating with internet/mana. But whatever happened to the Waka jumping legislation? Internet/mana will become two parties six weeks after the election. Now that is a racket!

[elZorro]

Belgarion, maybe National does have a policy!

[fungus pudding]

What started the thread. It's what a majority percentage of overall voters wanted. Not the same thing as "the public" at all. But the lexeme has now become part of the lexicon of political speak.

Consequently, it has now indeed become a political racket, like govt assets sales, for bad politicians to claim "the public" endorsed such stupid actions.

Conservatives have at least recognised this.


It would be obvious to most that 'the public' referred to means 'the voting public' which excludes those who are still in nappies, or not interested in voting.

[elZorro]

I saw the article on a new rocket company on TV the other day. Here's some more detail. The National Govt has funded this project by $25mill over five years, and now overseas investors have stepped up. $25mill could have kickstarted a lot of smaller enterprises (lets say 250 at $100k each). Will the govt's investment be diluted by the new interests, and just what were they hoping to achieve? $1mill per employee has been granted so far.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11301045

Will the new investors repay the govt funds, as this business looks like it'll be overseas owned soon? Does this mean that National is in the game of "picking winners"? If so, there are only a very few in NZ. The chosen few.

[BlackPeter]

I saw the article on a new rocket company on TV the other day. Here's some more detail. The National Govt has funded this project by $25mill over five years, and now overseas investors have stepped up. $25mill could have kickstarted a lot of smaller enterprises (lets say 250 at $100k each). Will the govt's investment be diluted by the new interests, and just what were they hoping to achieve? $1mill per employee has been granted so far.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11301045

Will the new investors repay the govt funds, as this business looks like it'll be overseas owned soon? Does this mean that National is in the game of "picking winners"? If so, there are only a very few in NZ. The chosen few.

No worries, EZ. I am sure your Green friends will kill this enterprise anyway. This must be the next target after managing to wrestle down the mining industry. Just imagine a starting rocket in New Zealand - I am sure the Greens will stand up for the rights of blackbirds and magpies to populate our sky undisturbed from blasting NZ rockets.

And hey - if we sell out the company, than we can afford to hire some more left wing bureaucrats for the money - can't we?;)

[elZorro]

No worries, EZ. I am sure your Green friends will kill this enterprise anyway. This must be the next target after managing to wrestle down the mining industry. Just imagine a starting rocket in New Zealand - I am sure the Greens will stand up for the rights of blackbirds and magpies to populate our sky undisturbed from blasting NZ rockets.

And hey - if we sell out the company, than we can afford to hire some more left wing bureaucrats for the money - can't we?;)

No, that's not the point I was making, this is an interesting industry, and one we could do from here. But, the govt has granted these guys $25mill, it's a gift, they probably started saying that this is the end of the line as far as grants go. So then the business owners have targeted a bigger fish overseas, and these new people won't be doing it for free, they'll want a big return. The NZ govt won't have any holding interest in the operation, and now it runs the risk of being an Endace, overseas owned and no refund of the substantial grants back to the NZ taxpayer. It's a taxpayer rort if that happens. A really big one.

Forget about the Greens, what about all the smaller businesses that don't get grants or R&D tax credits under National? For the entire year, the NZ govt allows 195 uni undergrads funding for 400 hrs @$16 for job training out in businesses. Funds involved: about $1.3mill. The positions were taken in just a few days. Fonterra used to take 100 students by themselves, this year, none. There are thousands of students who'd like to be doing holiday work relating to their degrees. Most of them don't get the chance. So employers end up with new employees who need quite a bit of hand-holding in their first fulltime jobs.

[Cuzzie]

No, that's not the point I was making, this is an interesting industry, and one we could do from here. But, the govt has granted these guys $25mill, it's a gift, they probably started saying that this is the end of the line as far as grants go. So then the business owners have targeted a bigger fish overseas, and these new people won't be doing it for free, they'll want a big return. The NZ govt won't have any holding interest in the operation, and now it runs the risk of being an Endace, overseas owned and no refund of the substantial grants back to the NZ taxpayer. It's a taxpayer rort if that happens. A really big one.

Forget about the Greens, what about all the smaller businesses that don't get grants or R&D tax credits under National? For the entire year, the NZ govt allows 195 uni undergrads funding for 400 hrs @$16 for job training out in businesses. Funds involved: about $1.3mill. The positions were taken in just a few days. Fonterra used to take 100 students by themselves, this year, none. There are thousands of students who'd like to be doing holiday work relating to their degrees. Most of them don't get the chance. So employers end up with new employees who need quite a bit of hand-holding in their first fulltime jobs.
Rocket Lab says the average cost of a dedicated satellite launch system is $155 million, but it will be able to do the same job for $5.7 million. $25 Million is a good investment if they can secure business from customers used to paying $155 million but will only pay $5.7 million to this Kiwi company who will still make a good profit. Sounds like good enterprise to me.

[elZorro]

Rocket Lab says the average cost of a dedicated satellite launch system is $155 million, but it will be able to do the same job for $5.7 million. $25 Million is a good investment if they can secure business from customers used to paying $155 million but will only pay $5.7 million to this Kiwi company who will still make a good profit. Sounds like good enterprise to me.

Think about it, it won't be a kiwi company any more. It'll employ a few kiwis, maybe, and the big profits will go offshore. I bet it's all going to be run through a tax haven. One or two NZers will get a big tax-free payout.

Back in the line of big business not always being good for NZ, a mining firm left behind the Tui Mine mess, which contaminated the Waihou River for years. Its remediation is now complete and the site is going to receive the Arthur Mead award. Funds were set aside and work started in 2007, Helen Clark's govt saw to it. It had been a festering sore for decades. I bet National MPs will attend this PR event, as though it was their doing.

http://www.doc.govt.nz/conservation/restoration-projects/tui-mine/

National implies it was all their idea, 2013. (http://www.national.org.nz/news/news/media-releases/detail/2013/04/30/$22-5-million-tui-mine-clean-up-complete)

[BlackPeter]

No, that's not the point I was making, this is an interesting industry, and one we could do from here. But, the govt has granted these guys $25mill, it's a gift, they probably started saying that this is the end of the line as far as grants go. So then the business owners have targeted a bigger fish overseas, and these new people won't be doing it for free, they'll want a big return. The NZ govt won't have any holding interest in the operation, and now it runs the risk of being an Endace, overseas owned and no refund of the substantial grants back to the NZ taxpayer. It's a taxpayer rort if that happens. A really big one.

Forget about the Greens, what about all the smaller businesses that don't get grants or R&D tax credits under National? For the entire year, the NZ govt allows 195 uni undergrads funding for 400 hrs @$16 for job training out in businesses. Funds involved: about $1.3mill. The positions were taken in just a few days. Fonterra used to take 100 students by themselves, this year, none. There are thousands of students who'd like to be doing holiday work relating to their degrees. Most of them don't get the chance. So employers end up with new employees who need quite a bit of hand-holding in their first fulltime jobs.

EZ, I understand ... and to a degree I even concur. Yes, the current system (a la National) of picking winners and subsidizing losers is certainly not the best of all worlds - and yes, looking into the professional education of children - the NZ professional education is going downhill together with the whole education system. Some of it is due to government inaction and ideological blindness, some of it is however funnily enough as well because left wing ideologists are still running our teachers education system (probably one of Helen Clarks legacies National didn't manage to get rid of).

I understand that some of Labour's policies are well intended (even if not always well thought through). Problem is however - you can't forget about the Greens (as you suggest), given that Labour has even with them little chance to form a government (and NIL without them). I.e. every vote for Labour is a vote for Green, which is at current a Nay-saying bunch of protesters. I know, there was a time when the Greens stood for more than just for saying NO, but this was a different team. The current Greens are happy to destroy as much wealth and jobs as they can. Land based mining - NO, Off shore mining - NO, Fishing - NO, Wind energy - NO, Agriculture - NO, Tourism - NO, New Hydro energy and irrigation - NO, more useless bureaucrats - YES ... o.k. I agree, their is something they say YES to;

[Banksie]

Land based mining - NO, Off shore mining - NO, Fishing - NO, Wind energy - NO, Agriculture - NO, Tourism - NO, New Hydro energy and irrigation - NO, more useless bureaucrats - YES ... o.k. I agree, their is something they say YES to;

I was just having a discussion on the other thread regarding mining, and some of the sound bites being bantered around regarding the greens are just not true.
https://www.greens.org.nz/conservation/mining

Unless I am misreading their policy this is their position:

No to,
* Fracking,
* Deep sea oil drilling,
* Mining in national parks.
Yes to,
* shallow sea offshore drilling,
* On shore drilling(just no fracking),
* On shore mining
They are not even writing off fracking, rather they say
"[f]racking shouldn't happen until we know more about it and have a proper regulatory regime in place."

Edit: I decided to research one of your other NOs. I think you must be making it up. Here is their position on Wind Farms.

B. Supporting Wind Energy
New Zealand has an excellent wind resource that can be used for pumping or electricity generation. Wind farms are quick to be commissioned, easily extended, and can be sited close to demand. The combination of wind and hydro is particularly beneficial as water can be stored in the lakes when the wind is blowing and used to generate power when it is not. Care is needed in choosing sites for wind farms, in order to respect cultural values such as iconic views. We want to see communities and energy companies agreeing about possible wind farm sites before specific proposals are developed. The Green Party will:


Provide planning assistance to district and regional councils, to enable them to provide sites for wind farms in their plans that minimise conflict with other community values in advance of specific proposals.

https://www.greens.org.nz/policy/energy-policy

[elZorro]

I was just having a chat with a business owner, he has voted National and Act in the past. This year, he's voting for the Greens. He is heavily involved in resource consent related work, and has looked very hard at their policies. He likes them a lot. And this guy is a smart operator. Unlike many others in NZ, he's not scared of the Greens. We need a new direction.

[fungus pudding]

I was just having a chat with a business owner, he has voted National and Act in the past. This year, he's voting for the Greens.

That settles it then. Doesn't seem much point in having an election after all.

[BlackPeter]

I was just having a discussion on the other thread regarding mining, and some of the sound bites being bantered around regarding the greens are just not true.
https://www.greens.org.nz/conservation/mining

Unless I am misreading their policy this is their position:

No to,
* Fracking,
* Deep sea oil drilling,
* Mining in national parks.
Yes to,
* shallow sea offshore drilling,
* On shore drilling(just no fracking),
* On shore mining
They are not even writing off fracking, rather they say
"[f]racking shouldn't happen until we know more about it and have a proper regulatory regime in place."

Edit: I decided to research one of your other NOs. I think you must be making it up. Here is their position on Wind Farms.

B. Supporting Wind Energy
New Zealand has an excellent wind resource that can be used for pumping or electricity generation. Wind farms are quick to be commissioned, easily extended, and can be sited close to demand. The combination of wind and hydro is particularly beneficial as water can be stored in the lakes when the wind is blowing and used to generate power when it is not. Care is needed in choosing sites for wind farms, in order to respect cultural values such as iconic views. We want to see communities and energy companies agreeing about possible wind farm sites before specific proposals are developed. The Green Party will:


Provide planning assistance to district and regional councils, to enable them to provide sites for wind farms in their plans that minimise conflict with other community values in advance of specific proposals.

https://www.greens.org.nz/policy/energy-policy

Hi Banksie,

(I presume not THE Banksie??). I admit that I generalised somewhat (mea culpa), but on the other hand - don't measure them on their words, but on their deeds. I remember several South Island wind farms the Greens opposed - and if you look at NWF (Palmerston North) - sure, this is a self serving city council as main opposition, but I would be very surprised if they (the opposers) wouldn't have support from the Greens as well.

So I guess in practise, the Greens claim to support wind farms as long as nobody (including any native animal) can see them or hear them (the wind farm, not the Greens), as long as no landmark is optically polluted and as long as nobody else opposes them for whatever reason. How many NZ wind farms do you remember receiving support from the Greens?

[elZorro]

That settles it then. Doesn't seem much point in having an election after all.

Not for you, FP, he'll cancel out your party vote I'm sure. You'll need some like-minded voters.

[BlackPeter]

I was just having a chat with a business owner, he has voted National and Act in the past. This year, he's voting for the Greens. He is heavily involved in resource consent related work, and has looked very hard at their policies. He likes them a lot. And this guy is a smart operator. Unlike many others in NZ, he's not scared of the Greens. We need a new direction.
I am not afraid of the Greens - and just for the record: l voted last time for the Green party. Won't repeat this mistake this round, though. See , the problem is that the current bunch of "Greens" use the name only as camouflage for their left-wing ideology and their can't do attitude.

[fungus pudding]

I am not afraid of the Greens - and just for the record: l voted last time for the Green party. Won't repeat this mistake this round, though. See , the problem is that the current bunch of "Greens" use the name only as camouflage for their left-wing ideology and their can't do attitude.

The Greens are certainly costing Labour some votes. They are now inseparable and should agree on major policies before the election. Given the relative strength of them now it's just pointless for each party spewing out stuff that is in conflict with or very different from the other. 'Vote Labour and get Norman and Turei as co deputy PMs'. Oh dear - not a vote winner.

[elZorro]

The Greens are certainly costing Labour some votes. They are now inseparable and should agree on major policies before the election. Given the relative strength of them now it's just pointless for each party spewing out stuff that is in conflict with or very different from the other. 'Vote Labour and get Norman and Turei as co deputy PMs'. Oh dear - not a vote winner.

Yes, it could be FP. Norman and Turei both speak common sense backed up with research, and they're good at sound bites. You should indeed be worried.

Steven Joyce finally moves to get control of Novopay, as Talent2 refuses to modify the code any more, within the contract. Looks like a team of NZ software writers will get access to the source code for up to 6 years, at a price of course. But at least we'll see if NZ programmers are any more organised and dedicated than Australians.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10327873/Govt-set-to-take-over-Novopay-payroll-system

I note that one school kept sane by writing their own Excel spreadsheet to keep track of the situation. NovoPay cost $125million, so far.

Transfer to NZ will occur after the election. So if the swapover isn't clean, it won't affect the voting.

This NovoPay debacle should be high in the mind of politicians when they decide who should write the new IRD software. No matter what the track record in software writing of this size, it should be done in NZ. Keep the work here.

[Sgt Pepper]

Yes, it could be FP. Norman and Turei both speak common sense backed up with research, and they're good at sound bites. You should indeed be worried.

Steven Joyce finally moves to get control of Novopay, as Talent2 refuses to modify the code any more, within the contract. Looks like a team of NZ software writers will get access to the source code for up to 6 years, at a price of course. But at least we'll see if NZ programmers are any more organised and dedicated than Australians.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10327873/Govt-set-to-take-over-Novopay-payroll-system

I note that one school kept sane by writing their own Excel spreadsheet to keep track of the situation. NovoPay cost $125million, so far.

Transfer to NZ will occur after the election. So if the swapover isn't clean, it won't affect the voting.

This NovoPay debacle should be high in the mind of politicians when they decide who should write the new IRD software. No matter what the track record in software writing of this size, it should be done in NZ. Keep the work here.

EZ
Look Steven Joyce is on to it, I mean after all he has a Zoology Degree!!

[elZorro]

Good posts Belgarion, that's the guts of it. Smarter things get done when Labour is in office.

[Cuzzie]

Good posts Belgarion, that's the guts of it. Smarter things get done when Labour is in office.
Thanks for the joke of the day. He.he.he.:D

[BlackPeter]

Good posts Belgarion, that's the guts of it. Smarter things get done when Labour is in office.

classic - I didn't realise you are working for TUI!

[Cuzzie]

Okay. Quite happy to accept your points of view ... BUT ONLY WHEN YOU SHOW SOME SUBSTANCE.

Cuzzie's non-reasoned, unsubstantiated rhetoric is to be expected - we expect nothing more from him.

But BP, surely you have some substance for such criticism?That's hard case coming from the Spam-Man.

[Vaygor1]

Thanks for the joke of the day. He.he.he.:D

classic - I didn't realise you are working for TUI!
Okay. Quite happy to accept your points of view ... BUT ONLY WHEN YOU SHOW SOME SUBSTANCE.

Cuzzie's non-reasoned, unsubstantiated rhetoric is to be expected - we expect nothing more from him.

But BP, surely you have some substance for such criticism?

They aren't having a go at you belgarion… they're having a go at ElZorro, and I for one don't blame them on this occasion.

When it comes to generalised blanket-statements like 'Smarter things get done when Labour is in office', one would receive a more balanced political viewpoint by listening to a toilet flush.

[BlackPeter]

Okay. Quite happy to accept your points of view ... BUT ONLY WHEN YOU SHOW SOME SUBSTANCE.

Cuzzie's non-reasoned, unsubstantiated rhetoric is to be expected - we expect nothing more from him.

But BP, surely you have some substance for such criticism?

Hi Belg,

always obliging ...

So - why do I think that your remark that "Smarter things get done when Labour is in office" was TUI bill board material, lets see ...

Oh yes, obviously there is the Novapay debacle which you blame National for. Funny thing is, that Labour picked Talent 2 and created the contractual frame work for Novapay. The Novopay contract was initially signed off by the Labour Government in 2008 (check Wikipedia). Smarter things are done by a Labour government ????? Well, yes, maybe they wanted to make life as difficult as possible for the poor bastards who had to sort out their mess afterwards, but again - Novapay is Labours baby .... do we really want to give them more opportunities to waste tax payers money?

Now you might say that you knew from the beginning that Labour is not smart about IT projects, but otherwise ...

The last Labour government cares a sh*t about individual rights (maybe you call that smart - I call that crook):
- they put a refugee (Ahmed Zhaoi) in solitary confinement for 10 months, despite never telling him what he was accused of
- they drove a 50% increase in the prison population
- they drafted and passed amendments to the Immigration Act removing rights of appeal and allowing the use of secret evidence
- they drafted and passed the Terrorism Suppression Act, a piece of legislation which cuts deeply into our fundamental rights
- they condoned and supported the October 15 raids in which the Police invaded and harassed innocent communities
- they passed legislation preventing courts deciding who should own the seabed and foreshore

(lifted of http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2009/01/i-do-not-mourn-the-passing-of-the-5th-labour-government/)

and hey
- they put NZ troops into Afghanistan and Iraq

Is this, what you call smart?

Belg, come on ... don't let your political views clouding your judgement ...

[Banksie]

Hi Belg,

always obliging ...

So - why do I think that your remark that "Smarter things get done when Labour is in office" was TUI bill board material, lets see ...

erm, belg didn't say that El Zorro did.

Looking at the Novopay debaracle I don't think either party are blameless. Nobody should try and score political points off it, rather they should learn from their mistakes and get on with the job of fixing it...and keep future large scale IT projects onshore ffs.

[BlackPeter]

erm, belg didn't say that El Zorro did.



True ... my oversight. EZ made the claim, Belg defended it. Sometimes I find it difficult to distinguish between them on this thread. Must be political siblings ...

[Banksie]

True ... my oversight. EZ made the claim, Belg defended it. Sometimes I find it difficult to distinguish between them on this thread. Must be political siblings ...

Lol :)

To clarify, that list of items you gave regarding things that went wrong under labour, most of them would have had the same outcome under national. I haven't researched them all but it seems that the greens were the only ones who voted against the terrorism act and spoke out regarding the treatment of Ahmed Zhaoi.

Seems to be that both labour and national are both scared to rock the international boat.

[elZorro]

Um ... El Z the polite and tolerant one. I'm the cutting, forthright one who calls out foolishness immediately it appears.

Both of us come armed with facts and logic. Both of us apologise when we've made mistakes.

And, if I can speak for El Z, both of us enjoy the cut and trust of a good argument.

You're right there, Belgarion.

BlackPeter has some good points about the odd bit of Labour policy that might have had unintended consequences. But I was very happy with the new shape of NZ when the Clark Labour government was in.

The Cullen Fund. Paying back very old debt. Budget surpluses. Organising fixing the Tui Mine. Grants to Innovation Park and Maungatautari Ecological Park nearby. R&D tax credits giving hope for a smart economy. Apologies to the Chinese for the historical tax. No smoking in public buildings. Gay law reform. Increases to the minimum wage. Record employment. Support for SMEs in general, and public companies and SOES. Higher GDP per capita rates. Considering a CGT.


These and many other things that I believe were in the correct direction. I wrote to the party and said so.

[Banksie]

The Cullen Fund. Paying back very old debt. Budget surpluses. Organising fixing the Tui Mine. Grants to Innovation Park and Maungatautari Ecological Park nearby. R&D tax credits giving hope for a smart economy. Apologies to the Chinese for the historical tax. No smoking in public buildings. Gay law reform. Increases to the minimum wage. Record employment. Support for SMEs in general, and public companies and SOES. Higher GDP per capita rates. Considering a CGT.

So I went and compared the 5th Labour government's and the 5th National government's significant policies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_National_Government_of_New_Zealand


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Labour_Government_of_New_Zealand

I must say National's list makes rather grime reading. I know many will be happy with the tax break and the assets sales, but it seems their time in government has been more about what they have been preventing the opposition from doing rather than making NZ a better place to live.

[BlackPeter]

So I went and compared the 5th Labour government's and the 5th National government's significant policies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_National_Government_of_New_Zealand


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Labour_Government_of_New_Zealand

I must say National's list makes rather grime reading. I know many will be happy with the tax break and the assets sales, but it seems their time in government has been more about what they have been preventing the opposition from doing rather than making NZ a better place to live.

Maybe this is one of the cases where less is more?

Yes, Labour was much happier than National to open our wallets, take our money and spend it as they see fit (Mama Helen knows better). Labour decided to spend our money to

- hire senior unemployed clowns (referring not just to all these senior policy analysts crowding government premises at the end of HC's reign ... and than, she was as well minister for the arts - wasn't she?
- to increase overall bureaucracy (another ministry - anybody?) or
- to get people addicted to receiving benefits - hardly anybody left who doesn't live off the tax payer in one form or another (oh - damn, forgot about me ...)
- ah yeah, didn't check on Wikipedia, but the greed tax was really an outstanding Labour achievement - and how fast they've been to implement it, amazing performance ...

Banksie, do you really say these are all good things?

[elZorro]

Maybe this is one of the cases where less is more?

Yes, Labour was much happier than National to open our wallets, take our money and spend it as they see fit (Mama Helen knows better). Labour decided to spend our money to

- hire senior unemployed clowns (referring not just to all these senior policy analysts crowding government premises at the end of HC's reign ... and than, she was as well minister for the arts - wasn't she?
- to increase overall bureaucracy (another ministry - anybody?) or
- to get people addicted to receiving benefits - hardly anybody left who doesn't live off the tax payer in one form or another (oh - damn, forgot about me ...)
- ah yeah, didn't check on Wikipedia, but the greed tax was really an outstanding Labour achievement - and how fast they've been to implement it, amazing performance ...

Banksie, do you really say these are all good things?

BP, National is spending just as much as Labour was, their costs haven't reduced. Partly because there are more on the dole, the recycling of money isn't as good. But because of the tax breaks mostly helping out the wealthier PAYE people, govt income is below their expenditure, and has been like that for their entire term. Presumably they are happy with this, they'll keep borrowing to make up the shortfall rather than admit they got the settings wrong.

While you may think you're the only one who pays taxes, you are wrong. In fact the wealthiest people pay the least tax in proportion to their annual income on average, they have structured their affairs, and it's all legit. Morally corrupt, but legit. National promotes a greed mentality, not Labour.

National's decisions on coalition partners have upset a few voters, according to the latest Roy Morgan poll. It's much closer now.

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/5711-roy-morgan-new-zealand-voting-intention-july-31-2014-201407310230

[Banksie]

Maybe this is one of the cases where less is more?

Yes, Labour was much happier than National to open our wallets, take our money and spend it as they see fit (Mama Helen knows better). Labour decided to spend our money to

- hire senior unemployed clowns (referring not just to all these senior policy analysts crowding government premises at the end of HC's reign ... and than, she was as well minister for the arts - wasn't she?
- to increase overall bureaucracy (another ministry - anybody?) or
- to get people addicted to receiving benefits - hardly anybody left who doesn't live off the tax payer in one form or another (oh - damn, forgot about me ...)
- ah yeah, didn't check on Wikipedia, but the greed tax was really an outstanding Labour achievement - and how fast they've been to implement it, amazing performance ...

Banksie, do you really say these are all good things?

Have we not just shifted people from the public sector to the unemployment sector?

Sorry but I don't understand your reference to greed tax, and are you saying it is a good or a bad thing that Clark was the minister of arts?

[elZorro]

David Cunliffe presented a rousing parting speech before the house shut down for the year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgD4dE0we9M

[elZorro]

Have we not just shifted people from the public sector to the unemployment sector?

Sorry but I don't understand your reference to greed tax, and are you saying it is a good or a bad thing that Clark was the minister of arts?

Banksie, good point about the labour force. It looks fairly artificial, that graph. After National got in, the unemployment rate went from around 4% to between 6 and 7%. It never goes below 6%. If a party was fairly interested in holding back wages, that would be a certain way to do it.

Labour now has a clear message for all those people out there stubbornly being paid just above the minimum wage. Things will get better quickly, just vote Labour. Any business that cries they can't afford a higher but fair minimum wage, hasn't been doing very well at all. Sooner or later, they would have been part of the normal business failure/rebirth cycle, if they didn't pick up their act.

[Banksie]

Banksie, good point about the labour force. It looks fairly artificial, that graph. After National got in, the unemployment rate went from around 4% to between 6 and 7%. It never goes below 6%. If a party was fairly interested in holding back wages, that would be a certain way to do it.

Yeah, it does appear to be bouncing off the 6% line. Surely if the economy is doing as well as the gov maintain we should be seeing a return to the 4% line we saw previously. Of course the other argument is the 6% are "addicted to receiving benefits", but which ever way you cut it, this situation has been created by the current government.

Edit: I suppose there is another interpretation: which is successive governments count unemployment in different ways i.e. stats manipulation. Is there any evidence of this?

[slimwin]

Which side of the political spectrum did you vote for when you were in your home country banksie? If you don't mind me asking.

[BlackPeter]

BP, National is spending just as much as Labour was, their costs haven't reduced.

Based on what data would you say this?

[Banksie]

Which side of the political spectrum did you vote for when you were in your home country banksie? If you don't mind me asking.

First time I voted under apartheid would have been for National Party (the architects of apartheid) basically because there was no choice. (Although my local MP was FW Botha, the prime minster who dismantled apartheid).

Once the ANC were unbanned I voted for them, but economics played less of a role, it was more about human rights. (The ANC Freedom Charter is an amazing document http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=72).

If I was in South Africa now, probably the DA - to strength the opposition - as, in my opinion, the ANC is not governing true to the Charter.

BTW: I really do identify NZ as my home country now, I was born in England, spent 30 years in SA, but now am well and truly trying to be a kiwi, hence my interest in the politics.

This is my second election here, last time I voted National party vote (cos they had better advertising I think, I was pretty uninformed) and Labour for my local MP (cos I had met her and she seemed a good sort).

[Banksie]

Based on what data would you say this?


Here you go BP, government spending 1999 to 2014.

6080

(link to handy stat site http://www.tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/government-spending)

Edit: what you could probably argue is that National have broken the upward trend.

[Cuzzie]

Awesome! Keep at it Banksie. Keep digging down.

You are, like a few others on ST, renewing my faith in Kiwis! Much love to you and yours. {belgie has a tear in his eye}

I'll never say any govt is perfect, just that some are a bit better than others. And mostly it is just a "bit". But Key's National? ....
Hmmm. I was interested to read in the Herald today (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11302219) about the police criminal profiler who built a psychological model of the murderer who killed the Crewes. Interesting stuff. I have done something similar back in the day & still use those principles today to suss out people. Point in action, I recently looked at a silver Audi car I was interested in buying and meet the guy at a locale school to check it out. I liked the car but something was not quite right with the guy. With my old contacts, I passed on the number plate and a good description on the seller & was shocked to find out those details. Needless to say I was spot on. Call it common sense, call it intuition or just put it down to ones training - I don't really care. I was spot on.

Moving forward, I think what we have going on here with our dear Banksie friend is a wee bit of Good Cop - Bad Cop at the very least. In fact I don't think, I know & if I was a betting man, which I'm not, but if I was, I'd put a lazy $100 on the fact. A Mod might even be able to link two I.P addresses to one of our lovely Labour bloggers. A plant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill), a stooge (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stooge) a duplication of ones membership on a different I.P even maybe. Banksie does have the same writing style as [empty] and uses the same words. Just saying.

Banksie has gone from - new to NZ & not knowing anything politically, to asking many questions, then changing the answers given to him to help support his agenda and then now he's saying what belg, EZ, belg and Co would say and they congratulate him on his posts. Here is the thing, he (Banksie) says what EZ, belg and Co would say in a very short period of time. It would seem our Labour bloggers are up to their little games. What else would you expect from them. They are the opposite to straight shooting & that would be bent shooting. Again, just saying & there is no way of getting it 100% correct all the time, however there are strong tell, tell signs in this case.

[Cuzzie]

First time I voted under apartheid would have been for National Party (the architects of apartheid) basically because there was no choice. (Although my local MP was FW Botha, the prime minster who dismantled apartheid).

Once the ANC were unbanned I voted for them, but economics played less of a role, it was more about human rights. (The ANC Freedom Charter is an amazing document http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=72).

If I was in South Africa now, probably the DA - to strength the opposition - as, in my opinion, the ANC is not governing true to the Charter.

BTW: I really do identify NZ as my home country now, I was born in England, spent 30 years in SA, but now am well and truly trying to be a kiwi, hence my interest in the politics.

This is my second election here, last time I voted National party vote (cos they had better advertising I think, I was pretty uninformed) and Labour for my local MP (cos I had met her and she seemed a good sort). Here we go, voted National last time but will be voting Labour this time around. Similar to a cool story EZ told as recently. Hi Banksie:sneaky2:. Give us more of that National hate, I love that sh!te.

[BlackPeter]

Have we not just shifted people from the public sector to the unemployment sector?

Sorry but I don't understand your reference to greed tax, and are you saying it is a good or a bad thing that Clark was the minister of arts?

I always find it amazing that some people blame the fallout of the GFC to National. I am not saying, that Labour created the GFC, but it happened during their watch - blaming the fall out of it (higher unemployment and government debt) to the people who had to sort out the mess is poor hypocrisy. Banksie, not sure, whether this is in your case caused by inexperience, lack of historical knowledge or something more sinister - but I expected better from you. Just compare New Zealand's unemployment rates with other OECD countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate

I am not even a National supporter, but I must say they did very well compared to others.

Greed tax: introduced by the 5th Labour government during the first couple of weeks of their reign. All rich bastards with an income of more than 60k annually had to pay 39% tax. Was at that stage quite tough for us, given that my 60 (and a wee bit) k (as sole earner) had to feed a family of 5, but Labour didn't care - they just taxed.

And no - my statement on HC's role as minister of the arts was not a reflection on her performance in this particular activity. Just playing with the word clown earlier in the sentence.

Hope this clears it up.

[Cuzzie]

Silence - No surprises there. I hate to rush one of you but the less time you take to make that reply, the more factual it will be. Maybe that might hurry you up, then again maybe not. belg? You are on-line.

[Cuzzie]

Thank You, now in your own words please explain how the hell can you answer for all the other Labour Bloggers on Sharetrader and Bankie so quickly without any communication between you all. You would not know that answer and could not possibly say, " Sorry to say, Cuz, you're wrong again." without that knowledge. You can't say wrong without input from more than just you.

Thank You very much belg & welcome to my world. Good Cop Bad Cop confirmed by belg. Cheers mate. BYW, I profiled you last year just for my own record. I've got your cards buddy.

What drives me. I hate deception.


Socialist ignore the side of man that is the spirit. They can provide you shelter, fill your belly with bacon & beans, treat you when you're ill, all the things guarantee to be a prisoner of life. They don't understand that we also dream. Ronald Reagan.

[Banksie]

Here we go, voted National last time but will be voting Labour this time around. Similar to a cool story EZ told as recently. Hi Banksie:sneaky2:. Give us more of that National hate, I love that sh!te.

So you are talking to me again, sweet.

Please point me to the post where I have given "National hate"? I don't think I have.

Also, point me to the post where I said I will be voting Labour this time, I don't think I have - (but I did vote for Ruth Dyson with my electoral vote last time).

This time, well I am leaning towards a Green party vote (my home suburb is a strong green area) and either Ruth or Nuk for my electoral vote. Nuk - you may scream, but he is a Nat - but yes he is also a good guy with the interests of the community at heart. (In an ideal world I would like my cake and eat it and see both him and Ruth in parliament, such is the beauty of MMP).

So cuzzie, all seems above board to me, no conspiracies or hidden agendas...and I am not afraid to say who I votes for, why I voted for them, and also that my mind may have changed over time.

Like it or hate it - there isn't much difference (policy-wise) between Labour and National, cos they both have to keep middle-NZ happy.

[Banksie]

I always find it amazing that some people blame the fallout of the GFC to National. I am not saying, that Labour created the GFC, but it happened during their watch - blaming the fall out of it (higher unemployment and government debt) to the people who had to sort out the mess is poor hypocrisy. Banksie, not sure, whether this is in your case caused by inexperience, lack of historical knowledge or something more sinister - but I expected better from you. Just compare New Zealand's unemployment rates with other OECD countries:

Fair enough - here is a comparison of NZ vs Aus unemployment and yup, looks like we are trending in the right way in NZ as opposed to Aus who are trending the wrong way.

6081



Can I suggest that you don't jump to too many conclusions regarding my motivation, seeing as we are debating online, with out the benefit of body language or facial expression...but I will give you this, I am bored at work and do enjoy a good political debate that does not degenerate into mud-slinging and name calling (I save that for later when I do it at the pub with a jug of Monteiths (does drinking monteiths make be a commie b@$tard or a greenie pinko I wonder ;)).


Greed tax: introduced by the 5th Labour government during the first couple of weeks of their reign. All rich bastards with an income of more than 60k annually had to pay 39% tax. Was at that stage quite tough for us, given that my 60 (and a wee bit) k (as sole earner) had to feed a family of 5, but Labour didn't care - they just taxed.

Yup - I can see how that would bite, seems like the top tax bracket was probably pushed up too quickly, and at too lower level. This time Labour are proposing 36% for $150K and over. Would that still hurt? I ain't in that tax bracket so it won't affect me.

[Cuzzie]

Just too funny, Cuz.

Did you do what I suggested and ask STMOD? When you have, I expect an apology.
Not all of us go running to the STMOD belg? I have no intention of doing so. You expect an apology:). Yep you are indeed a Labour supporter. Funny how Banksie popped up.