If National wins ... [Archive] - Page 20

Cuzzie

12-08-2014, 11:21 AM

Cuzzie, maybe you're better at maths than David Parker, but he says that the policies are all funded, paid for, and the surpluses will start in year one of their term. If you'll remember, history is on his side. Labour posted 9 budget surpluses in a row, National has posted five deficits. Big ones. Who do I believe: paid Crosby-Textor-like wannabes - or the Labour Party? They didn't lie last time they were in, they did a great job.

I'm very happy Labour has sidelined Internet Mana from the serious vote. But I've just heard that Lailla Harre (and Gareth Hughes) were well received by uni students at Auckland, and at least those votes won't go to National. Anne Tolley was heckled.
I think John Key is far more trustworthy than Parker, ask Parker's old business partner that & he will confirm. Listen to this from ZB. (http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/listen-on-demand/audio/1310668224-mhb---prime-minister-john-key--august-11--2014)

As for Crosby-Textor, they are choir boys compared to Matt McCarten & you know it.

Internet Mana, gutter politics and the laughing stock they deserve to be. Just plainly and simply a joke.

D.C hasn't made a slip up for a while, we all know that can't last. :cool:

Sgt Pepper

12-08-2014, 11:21 AM

Tax avoidance on capital gains is absolutely rife.

One only needs to come up with a semi-plausible reason why flicking something on for profit shouldn't incur tax. E.g. "my intent was to live here but I like the schools better in another area so I sold it in less than 18 months for a $370k untaxed profit". Its is worth the IRD's effort to chase very large amounts but smaller amounts are just not worth it. And I suspect, unless it becomes an open-and-shut case, they'd not even bother with $370k.

So by introducing a CGT such shenanigans simply disappears.

Now FP will argue that the rate of CGT (15%?) will be lower than the typical tax rate (33%?) of the people doing such things. This'll be another red herring. But I'll wait for the post. ;)

It was interesting. I thought after the GFC, David Cameron ( good friend of John Key, well according to John Key that is!)was making noises about the need for the Googles of this world to be stopped gaming the system and pay their fair share to maintain a civilised society. Precious little progress, I wonder why?

In the meantime, where I work in the Health Service we have to print double sided to save money.

fungus pudding

12-08-2014, 12:15 PM

I think John Key is far more trustworthy than Parker, ask Parker's old business partner that & he will confirm. [/URL]

Parker is a failed businessman who has left a trail of enemies.

Harvey Specter

12-08-2014, 12:18 PM

It was interesting. I thought after the GFC, David Cameron ( good friend of John Key, well according to John Key that is!)was making noises about the need for the Googles of this world to be stopped gaming the system and pay their fair share to maintain a civilised society. Precious little progress, I wonder why?Little progress??? - BEPS is a top priority for the OECD as a single country cannot solve the issue alone.

The biggest issue is actually the US as they dont tax their CFC's so they are incentivised to use tax havens. If a NZ company used a tax haven, that profit would be taxable in NZ under the CFC regime, eliminating any benefit from the tax planning. Have you noticed every company you hear that is screwing the system is a US company!

Harvey Specter

12-08-2014, 01:24 PM

It takes an Earthquake with major destruction and the elimination of wealth ... To demonstrate to these economically illiterate morons that reducing unemployment, seeking full employment, lifts people out of poverty. ... Why doesn't National get this?

Why have they let unemployment remain so high for the last six years? (Rhetorical question BTW. Its the National Party supporters that want this. Maybe, just maybe, Key knows it wrong but he's such a scoundrel and so attached to power that he just does what he's told. What a guy!)YOu have obviously said it is a retorical question as you dont want anyone to mention the GFC so I wont.

you have pretty much summed up Nationals economic policy so I am surprised you dont support National. They have always said the best way to solve poverty is to reduce unemployment and have been working over the past few years to get the % down. Not giving new hand outs to feeding kids breakfast and lunch in schools. Not incentivising families to have more babies by increasing benefits.

The question therefore is which party is best for creating jobs.

Harvey Specter

12-08-2014, 01:28 PM

John Key is mega rich prick that has left a trail of destruction among hundred's of thousands of our most needy and has impoverished the country by borrowing 65 Billion to cut the taxes of the rich and pay NZ Super that the country can't afford.NIce BS but the tax cuts only cost $4b over the past 3 years. The rest is stuff Cunliffe has even said National had to do (extra costs during GFC and bailing out Chch). Want that Cunliffe didn't say is that he would have borrowed more as continued on with the excesses of Labours 3rd term.

Note: I accept (with hindsight) that borrowing to continue the super fund contributions would have been beneficial but not without risk

EDIT: Forgot to add, even though Labour will change super to 67, that will not take place for another few years so Labour wouldn't have saved any borrowing there.

Edit 2: I know everyone likes to think their party is the best, and even a bit of name calling can be fun, but why make up sh!t that is so blantantly wrong. YOu do yourself a discredit.

fergus

12-08-2014, 02:02 PM

John Key is mega rich prick that has left a trail of destruction among hundred's of thousands of our most needy and has impoverished the country by borrowing 65 Billion to cut the taxes of the rich and pay NZ Super that the country can't afford.

So, FP, what was your point? You have an opinion? Point noted. I have one too. ;) National ,Labour , Conservative , and the Internet party leaders are all mega rich prick leaders as you so well described them. I think the labour leader is only worth two million and goes out his way to hide that fact. The whole lot are a pack of liers so your pick is no better than mine. Fergus

Banksie

12-08-2014, 05:19 PM

Why on earth are you still printing things?

I don't work in healthcare, but my wife did for a while, and you will be horrified to know that some things have to be printed and....faxed:eek2:

Banksie

12-08-2014, 05:29 PM

Now here's an example of bollocks reporting ... Or is it perhaps scurrilous right wing spin?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/business/10369161/Rise-of-wealthy-changes-Christchurch

Wow - that video accompanying the article is (I have no other word for it) disgusting. Those poor people in Avonside have not had their earthquake repairs done yet, and they are being told "Don't worry, someone is getting a new Maserati, life is good".

westerly

12-08-2014, 06:23 PM

Parker is a failed businessman who has left a trail of enemies.

One in ten businesses fail in the first year, 70% within 5 years. Many would leave angry people in there wake. Supposedly business failures are learning experiences and not necessarily a cause for criticism unless of course you are a Labour supporter who should know his station in life and remain an employed worker.

On another subject National on becoming the Government made a big fuss about how ACC was in a precarious financial position and needed big increases in premiums. Now in election year there is a large ( billions surplus ) some of which can be returned by reduced premiums. The rest according to John Key is required to maintain the Govt. surplus. Another subtle increase in taxation?

westerly

neopoleII

12-08-2014, 07:53 PM

so I watched the video of the poor and rich parts of CHC and then read the "horrific" comments about how poor some folks are.......
So...... having an older 3 bedroom home on a quarter acre or third acre is now the new "deprived" of NZ?
it seems that having a good paying job is about to become an illegal activity that should be punished with the full force of left wing government,
While the folks living in older homes on a quarter acre get a massive "redistribution" so as every one...... hard worker and average workers and non workers
are all equal.

what a joke!

it seems the left wing are turning into the ultimate green eyed monsters our society has ever seen.

A serious question for left wing supporters.........
Do you honestly believe that an educated person or family that works hard or earns good money
should be punished or ridiculed like this video does because lesser earning folks havent got as big or flash a home?

considering almost all of those houses in the "poor" part of that video are bigger than mine must make me and wifey
extremely poverty stricken.
and yet....... no welfare given or offered.........
ps........ ponsonby has even older houses and smaller sections....... that must be a very deprived community.......
those homes are only worth $700 to $800,000 ..... welfare time.

politics..... share trader style....... lol

Banksie

12-08-2014, 08:19 PM

The least/most deprived comparison was done on median income, not property size or value. Most deprived = $16,400 and least deprived = $47,500. Unless I am missing something I don't think you can assume the inhabitants of either block own their properties. They could be renting.

I still think the video is horrible, but I do see your point of view about the more affluent being ridiculed - basically it is a no win situation making comparisons like this. It made it very personal by singling out these two blocks and the people who live in them.

An added irritation to the people of christchurch is seeing earthquake repairs still occurring in the one street, while the other looks okay. This could be for many reasons (I.e no damage in the one area) but it is very insensitive of the press to run it like that as it can be perceived as the less affluent being at the end of the repair queue.

disc. I didn't read the comments on the story, but I can pretty much guess what was said.

neopoleII

12-08-2014, 08:48 PM

Cuzzie

12-08-2014, 09:27 PM

""Most deprived = $16,400 and least deprived = $47,500""

at $16,400 that = $315 per week.......
so somewhere along the way....... there is a BIG top up some where.
as $315 / 40 hours is $7.87 per hour of paid employment..... a bit less than min wage.
so again not a fair representation of the facts.
the sad thing is..... the poor folks get their backs up seeing and reading these stories,
and hard workers on "minimum" wage are asking...... why am I working so hard for so little?

All what these stories breed is resentment....... and it hurts every one........
from the poor, the low wage worker, the average worker, the tradie worker, and the "boss"
the only winners are the political spin doctors.

I really hate this sort of portrayal of NZ wealth, health and being.

Also on another point, that "rich" area looked like a newish suburb, as the poorer one was defiantly older.......
therefore....... did the earthquake "target" the poor folks of CHC?
is mother nature a right wing supporter?

ok silly statement..... but so is the original video.
its just twisting thing to suit political viewpoints.

and the world goes round.Yeah nice one neopole, all good points you make. The left have nothing so they go looking. Sometimes they just look too hard and can't see the cool stories they are manufacturing wont be picked up as the rubbish they are. They are cursed with negativity and those on the right for all the right reasons won't be voting left of center with that kind of carry on. Liar in a Hurry has set the new low for the left tag team & I reckon she has more in her yet. Kind of competition for the "apologetic wonder", you know, "want an apology wonder" & just when you thought the left couldn't get any weirder. Maybe we should vote them in for three years of humor, man that would be a massive joke. Wait, BTW, D.C has changed his mind again concerning the Internet Mana party and has now said he can work with them on a tweet TV3 showed. Poor EZ & belg will have to start talking them up again. Labour bloggers don't know if their Arthur or Martha at the moment.

fungus pudding

13-08-2014, 05:06 AM

Liar in a Hurry has set the new low for the left tag team & I reckon she has more in her yet. Kind of competition for the "apologetic wonder", you know, "want an apology wonder" & just when you thought the left couldn't get any weirder. Maybe we should vote them in for three years of humor, man that would be a massive joke. Wait, BTW, D.C has changed his mind again concerning the Internet Mana party and has now said he can work with them on a tweet TV3 showed. Poor EZ & belg will have to start talking them up again. Labour bloggers don't know if their Arthur or Martha at the moment.

I've just been to the travelling circus of Dotcom and Highly Scary. The local supporters were a sight to behold. For all the world like 1960s hippies and a few unionists from that era, not just in attitude, but also in appearance. There were even a few 'save the dolphins' placard wavers. The amusing thing though was the things they cheered for. Dotcom gave an amazing address. He has that rare ability to speak convincingly, with a dose of charisma, yet say nothing at all. Got a great reception which said more about his followers than him. All reminiscent of a Billy Graham crusade of the 60s where he travelled the world spreading 'the word' which amounted to nothing - but always to great applause. Even greater applause for Highly Scary, and no wonder. She will deliver free tertiary education for all, free school lunches, free internet of course, abolish GST, and several other wonderful things I can't recall. Suffice to say it will be utopia for all. Full employment from 'new things' and abolishing oil exploration, mining and god knows what else. And to pay for all these promises and stuff.......no problem. Hone Harawira has worked it out she assured us, by applying a financial transaction tax. Unfortunately Hone wasn't there, but with such simple goals - who needs clarification. The absolutely staggering thing was this was all free. Completely free. No raffles like the old alliance days, no passing a bucket for donations. Completely free, wonderful entertainment. So it didn't surprise me that so many of those in attendance looked as though they would never be able to attend anything at all that cost money. That was obvious from the numbers that couldn't afford soap or even water. And here was a wonderful night out - for nothing.I thoroughly recommend going to this road show if they're heading your way. Forget Queen, The Stones, The Eagles etc. This is better, and don't forget - free1

Sgt Pepper

13-08-2014, 07:12 AM

FP
Interesting and entertaining times indeed. Ive got a day off today, might see if I can buy a copy of Nicky Hagers latest book being launched. Nobody knows its contents, but my guess, and its just a guess, it might be about our friend Sir John Key and his tendency to be, shall we say, economical with the truth. John Key cringing on the news last night, what fun!

elZorro

13-08-2014, 07:28 AM

Sounds like you had an education FP. About what it must be like to be at the bottom end of the economy with few prospects. I think those people wanted to hear that there is some hope in the future for them too. They are all voters, they will have a say.

NZResources strays slightly off their reason for being to post political articles, including this one predictably backing National.

Government slams Labour’s social welfare spend

The Government has claimed that the electoral promises by the Labour opposition could see a spend of up to $17.9 billion.
The Labour electoral promises detailed at the weekend were clearly aimed at luring swinging voters and it brought a predictable response from the Key Government through Associate Finance Minister Steven Joyce.
Joyce claimed Labour’s election-year spending spree was now up to almost $17.9 B over four years - and counting.
“Labour’s own numbers show spending promises to date of $16.4 B over four years,” he said.
“However, they have woefully underestimated the costs of introducing compulsory KiwiSaver, dismantling the electricity sector and paying a 12.5% R&D tax credit.
“For example, Labour claims to be bringing 500,000 extra people into KiwiSaver from October 1, 2015, and would be paying them a tax credit that averages around $370 a year plus a $200 a year kick-start for the first five years. A simple calculation shows that the cost of this must be approaching $250 million in the first year, rather than $141 M as Labour is claiming.”
Joyce said when you put more realistic costs on these policies it takes Labour’s numbers to $17.9 B over four years.
“More will be added to this bill as Labour makes more desperate promises – and that’s not counting the big spending of their prospective coalition partners the Greens,” Joyce said.
“Labour is making very big spending commitments despite New Zealand being yet to post its first surplus since the GFC and the Canterbury earthquakes.
Kiwis will recall, he said, Labour’s previous big spend-up in the late 2000s. “It left us with a large Budget deficit and pushed up interest rates and the cost of living for households and businesses across the country.
“The New Zealand public will see Labour’s spending plan for what it is - reckless.”
National’s claim on Labour’s spending is attached:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/img/icons/pdf.jpg Labour_Party_Spending (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/attachments/6150/Labour_PartySpending.pdf) (18.3 kilobytes)

Note that most of the public will be hearing $16bill or $17.9bill, and won't divide that by four to get an annual cost. Say $4bill of spending per year, most of it designed to reduce costs in other areas, build the economy and hence the tax base.

National even have to admit that they haven't been able to get to a budget surplus yet, even after a record dairy cheque encouraging farm and dairy herd owners to invest in feedpads, feed, cars, tractors, ad infinitum. Or maybe that's where some of the profits now reside, with suppliers. Slowly working its way into the tax take. ipredict are running a bet that the surplus will not be achieved in 2014/2015, with slightly more than average assuming that National will get in, but won't achieve a surplus.

Of course, that has been one giant carrot that was to make all this hard graft worthwhile. Sure the govt borrowed billions, but National is so smart, so very organised, that years of budget deficits will be turned into a budget surplus. Hoorah!

Now the story is still that Labour somehow helped put the country into this difficult predicament. Cuzzie and FP, you've been good at helping them with their myopia here. We (i.e the Lefties) have been able to show that National made the GFC and earthquake repair problems worse than they should have been, and by ruthlessly changing the unemployment rate and the borrowed funds as a percentage of GDP, they helped produce a generation of disenfranchised youths that would attend Internet-Mana rallies.

Cuzzie

13-08-2014, 07:58 AM

Now the story is still that Labour somehow helped put the country into this difficult predicament. Cuzzie and FP, you've been good at helping them with their myopia here. We (i.e the Lefties) have been able to show that National made the GFC and earthquake repair problems worse than they should have been, and by ruthlessly changing the unemployment rate and the borrowed funds as a percentage of GDP, they helped produce a generation of disenfranchised youths that would attend Internet-Mana rallies.
You see EZ, any victory is merely only in your mind, clearly fp & myself see National recovering from Labours terrible reign which Key ended in dramatic fashion. So in your mind Labour got voted out in 2008 because they were going great guns and National has not made any recovery whatsoever from the Clark days. That is simply the opposite to the fact, but here is your biggest problem - It is not f.p, myself the Major, neopole or any other member on ShareTrader, but it is the New Zealand voting public. Take a look below:

EZ, there were six political polls in July – two Roy Morgans, a One News Colmar Brunton, a 3 News Reid Research, a Herald DigiPoll and a Fairfax Ipsos.

Here is the average of all those public polls, just to put it into perspective. National 25% ahead of Labour in July, up 2% from June and up 11% from April. The current seat projection is centre-right 68 seats, fractured centre-left collection[spelt how I wanted it, don't deserve the coalition tag] gets 52 which would see a centre-right Government. There is your problem and you know why National is doing so well? Because National supports are no fools and don't care for center left propaganda or the dirty politics we are now seeing from them. Your wasting your breath, but feel free to carry on - I know you will.

Cuzzie

13-08-2014, 08:06 AM

The only party making any sense on the left at the moment is the Greens because they aren't talking - & they aren't.

blackcap

13-08-2014, 08:36 AM

The only party making any sense on the left at the moment is the Greens because they aren't talking - & they aren't.

Thats interesting. i have a very good friend who has been a long time Labour voter (bit of a leftie but a good bugger). This year he amazed me last week by stating "there is no way I could vote for Labour this year... they are a disgrace.... I will be voting Green instead!" I think the Greens are being very smart by doing exactly what you say... keeping their mouths shut.

fungus pudding

13-08-2014, 08:51 AM

Sounds like you had an education FP. About what it must be like to be at the bottom end of the economy with few prospects. I think those people wanted to hear that there is some hope in the future for them too. They are all voters, they will have a say.

Actually I have considerable sympathy for those at the bottom of the heap, and do more than my fair share directly and indirectly to help. Yes, they are all voters, but there's nothing admirable about promising them nonsense like Highly Scary spouted. That is irresponsible conduct that fortunately neither major party could get away with.

Sgt Pepper

13-08-2014, 09:01 AM

Actually I have considerable sympathy for those at the bottom of the heap, and do more than my fair share directly and indirectly to help. Yes, they are all voters, but there's nothing admirable about promising them nonsense like Highly Scary spouted. That is irresponsible conduct that fortunately neither major party could get away with.

I must admit FP I thought we must have arrived at the boundary of transfer payments by our government( no matter who it is) some time ago. Perhaps that observation, I admit, was coloured by the memory of a time without such payments. We must arrive at a point where peoples expectations of government transfer payments exceed the ability of any government revenue to maintain it.

Harvey Specter

13-08-2014, 09:21 AM

Thats interesting. i have a very good friend who has been a long time Labour voter (bit of a leftie but a good bugger). This year he amazed me last week by stating "there is no way I could vote for Labour this year... they are a disgrace.... I will be voting Green instead!" I think the Greens are being very smart by doing exactly what you say... keeping their mouths shut.I would expect most Labour supporters (who actually follow politics ratehr than just vote red) would be considering the Greens as most of their policies are a lot better than Labours. Take the recent free medical to over 65's by Labour vs the Greens free medical to under 18's. Both untargeted so a waste but Labour has been screaming about child poverty for years so to solve it, they give an election bribe to the generation that needs it the least!

I think the Greens biggest mistake is positioning themselves to the left of Labour and being anti National. If they framed their policies slightly differently, they could have attracted votes from the right as well. I believe lots of people on the right are very concerned about the environment and understand there is more than one way to grow the economy (espeically those in the tech industry).

Another example - I beleive Nationals reliance on Roads is a bit misguided and that, in developed areas like Auckland, Public Transport needs to play a much bigger roll. A National/Greens coalition could achieve a much better balance on this front.

Likewise, National have just brought out a water standards test which Greens dont think go fa enough. If they were in coalition, they could have pushed for there to be a sinking limit on polutants. Instead they want to take a nuclear approach which will kill jobs. Or they want 100% renewable energy by 2020 rather than just saying no new non-renewable energy plants (why close economically viable plants before their end of life).

elZorro

13-08-2014, 09:54 AM

HS, good to see you have some reservations about the direction National is heading in. The Greens are of course setting a tight target for change, because they know it'll get watered down when they get into a coalition setup. I'd vote Green if I wasn't voting Labour, I have a lot of respect for both parties. It's heartening to see the Green vote going up. I still feel that Labour has some good environmental policies, they have been listening to the Greens all these years.

In a Labour meeting I attended recently, David Cunliffe was asked on the spot what he thought about climate change. He spoke for a couple of minutes or more outlining the grave possibilities of disruptive events worldwide from a 2 degrees global climate change. He was obviously well briefed, and there was a real climate expert in the room who was happy enough with that response.

If John Key had been asked that question, I wonder what sort of waffle would have been the result. It shames me to think that he is our Prime Minister. I do expect more.

westerly

13-08-2014, 10:09 AM

s
A serious question for left wing supporters.........
Do you honestly believe that an educated person or family that works hard or earns good money
should be punished or ridiculed like this video does because lesser earning folks havent got as big or flash a home?

Most National supporters on this thread seem to take great delight in ridiculing David Cunliffe and family for the same reasons.

westerly

elZorro

13-08-2014, 06:55 PM

I can't believe we're not talking about Nicky Hager's book yet, "Dirty Politics". I for one, am going to make a beeline to a bookstore tomorrow.

Here's a bit about it. I heard some more on RadioNZ today.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11308353

A few weeks back, I emailed Mr Hager to see if he had any idea if National were still using Crosby-Textor. I figured that if anyone knew or cared, he would. He replied the next day that it was almost certain that was the case. He agreed with me that no journalists have asked National about this, and that they should.

Great timing for the book, he's done a great job bringing it out so fast. That's dedication.

blackcap

13-08-2014, 07:00 PM

elZorro

13-08-2014, 07:12 PM

Boring, nothing new here. Lets move on. Politics is dirty, both sides are complicit.

No, you're wrong there Blackcap. Labour has had a directive running all through, from head office down to the campaign HQs spread throughout the country, to run a clean election. A positive one. That's the main slogan, Vote Positive.

Interesting that everyone says John Key is such an affable, nice guy. Except that in his previous job, he was able to easily dismiss heaps of people. Once he got to be PM of NZ, he presided over tens of thousands of redundancies, many within state-owned firms.

I can't wait to see the raw texts coming from the beehive, 9th floor. That'll be real.

If, in the end, we don't have National for another three years, it'll make my year.

fungus pudding

13-08-2014, 07:36 PM

fungus pudding

13-08-2014, 07:43 PM

If, in the end, we don't have National for another three years, it'll make my year.

And if Internet/Mana can be kept out of parliament altogether, that will keep me happy. Yet Cunliffe wants them in. The one and only political donation I have made this year is to Kelvin Davis, because Labour won't spend a cent in his electorate or help him campaign, and flat out deny it. Now that is hypocrisy.

neopoleII

13-08-2014, 07:43 PM

just watched the nicky hager piece on tv,
all i got from it was "show me the money"
most folks who spend a little bit of time "just before an election" to study the issues
will make a reasonably sound vote according to their life and needs.
this books release "just" on voting time is nothing but cannon fodder for the masses,
and cash for hager.

personally i think he is a great guy and investigative journalist....
trouble is...... he also wants to make a profit, and has no problem using the election season to maximize that profit.

if the book came out 6 months ago ..... good....... 6 months from now ...... good.
but a few weeks from election?
and the other point is........ the poor folks in otara e tel arent going to buy the book........
but left wing media can now "use" the book as propaganda in nation wide media...... focused toward poor non readers to push the anti right view point.

just another tool to be abused by politics and media.... left and right.

the really sad thing I think about is..... our hard fought democracy and the right to vote,
and not being influenced or subjected to propaganda..... is becoming less of a scared right.
and yet..... the modern form of propaganda either left or right seems to be totally acceptable!

and the majority of kiwis will probably be influenced by untruths or twisted facts or neighbours and friends opinions.

oh well, ..... if the goal is to get from a to b and we bounce of the left and right walls a few times then i guess we are going
in the right direction.

Sgt Pepper

13-08-2014, 07:51 PM

I presume Crosby Textor are an advertising agency or similar. Of course a political party of any size will use PR advice as no doubt Labour will. Is that some sort of crime or something?

No problem about PR advice, quite legitimate. However these e-mail revelations concerning John Keys press secretary in frequent contact/ strategy in collusion with Cameron Slater is really surprising. If John Key wants to salvage something out of this toxic swamp he needs to consider firing him ASAP . I am no fan of the PM but I am really surprised he would be stupid enough to be involved in this.
I have a feeling this is going to get real bad, real fast.

elZorro

13-08-2014, 08:01 PM

No problem about PR advice, quite legitimate. However these e-mail revelations concerning John Keys press secretary in frequent contact/ strategy in collusion with Cameron Slater is really surprising. If John Key wants to salvage something out of this toxic swamp he needs to consider firing him ASAP . I am no fan of the PM but I am really surprised he would be stupid enough to be involved in this.
I have a feeling this is going to get real bad, real fast.

Yep, I do too, this could change the shape of the election SP. The polls from now on are going to be a lot more enjoyable for the lefties. :)

Just goes to show, anything you write and post on a webpage (or even email) you'd better be prepared to see it publicly.

FP, for your information, Crosby-Textor are no ordinary PR firm. They are the best at what they do, they charge heaps, they have worked on UK elections and won them against all odds. Same in Aussie, their home base. They are staunchly liberal in their leaning, brutal with it. They'd never work for Labour in a million years. They have helped National stay in power (Brash got them in first), but work at a higher level than Slater's blog. There might be some tie-up in an overview though.

slimwin

13-08-2014, 08:21 PM

I have a feeling there will revelations Labour has been doing the same. It may even be Cameron Slater that releases it...

And I still wouldn't care. What is it people don't understand about politics? One politician calling the other dishonest is just what they do and two faced.

neopoleII

13-08-2014, 08:31 PM

""However these e-mail revelations concerning John Keys press secretary in frequent contact/ strategy in collusion with Cameron Slater is really surprising""

when KDC gets email tapped, its perceived as "wrong doing" by the government,
when the private emails from top level national party members and an internet savvy blogger get "intercepted" and published in a book.....
all is good??

to hack top level government emails is a bit beyond most folks.......
so who did it? and why?
the sad thing is ...... no ones seems to care about the illegal hacking of government staff...... "just show us the dirt!!!!"

lol

Im truly surprised that the contents of the book are deemed to be legal.

fungus pudding

13-08-2014, 08:35 PM

Yep, I do too, this could change the shape of the election SP. The polls from now on are going to be a lot more enjoyable for the lefties. :)

Just goes to show, anything you write and post on a webpage (or even email) you'd better be prepared to see it publicly.

FP, for your information, Crosby-Textor are no ordinary PR firm. They are the best at what they do, they charge heaps, they have worked on UK elections and won them against all odds. Same in Aussie, their home base. They are staunchly liberal in their leaning, brutal with it. They'd never work for Labour in a million years. They have helped National stay in power (Brash got them in first), but work at a higher level than Slater's blog. There might be some tie-up in an overview though.

What on earth is wrong with using the best?? Or using someone with similar leanings? e.g. Brian Edwards media training Labour pollies? Seems fair enough to me. I wouldn't get carried away with Nicky Hagar. I've heard him burbling on before. He's just another form of Ian Wishart - both conspiracy theorists. I wouldn't read anything either of them wrote. But if he gives Slater a pummelling, that's good, cos he's a horrible bustard.

Sgt Pepper

13-08-2014, 08:41 PM

Neopole
None of this is good, including the email from CS to John Key Press Secretary about people in quake damaged houses, describing them in crude disgusting language. Truly awful stuff. As I said John Key had better get rid of him ASAP

blackcap

13-08-2014, 09:21 PM

All this has done is created a great big free advertisement for whaleoil.co.nz. Cameron Slater et al will be loving this.

elZorro

13-08-2014, 09:35 PM

All this has done is created a great big free advertisement for whaleoil.co.nz. Cameron Slater et al will be loving this.

Not so sure. He's fairly brutal even on TV. I agree with FP on this. What's he like when emailing? I'll see tomorrow.

After having put up a few hoardings and fixing them afterwards recently, I think it's a real shame if people deface them, but we have backups. Some makeovers are a lot cleverer than others.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Party-Billboard-Makeovers/673451752747509?sk=photos_stream

elZorro

14-08-2014, 07:41 AM

There has been nearly half an hour of non-stop coverage about Nicky Hager's book (Dirty Politics) on TV1 this morning. Steven Joyce looked very uneasy in the start of his interview, but warmed up to some good bluster. David Cunliffe was perfect, almost a statesman. He made a telling comment: how much did John Key know about what was going on (in an office two doors away from him)?

Most National's electorate MPs and candidates have been careful to associate themselves with pictures of John Key, on hoardings and on websites. This might prove to be damaging to their chances. John Key will have to front to TV interviews sometime today.

This is a story that has legs, and I'd expect the first print run of the book to sell out within days.

I know another dirty trick the National Party's supporters have been working on, but it's not a major force on election results as far as I can tell. It also has to do with social and web media. In this case, Labour party people have their suspicions about what is going on, but don't have any proof. Like Cameron Slater's blog, the control of this supposedly non-partisan apparatus is firmly in National hands.

blackcap

14-08-2014, 07:46 AM

Mike Hosking rips Hagar a new one on ZB: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/listen-on-demand/audio/1592045740-mhb---nicky-hager--dirty-politics

elZorro

14-08-2014, 09:01 AM

Mike Hosking rips Hagar a new one on ZB: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/listen-on-demand/audio/1592045740-mhb---nicky-hager--dirty-politics

One of the comments:
Hoskings line of questioning to Hager compared to how he interviewed Slater (or didn't), show us exactly why he's completely unfit to be anywhere near the leaders debate. Totally unprofessional.

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 09:05 AM

Mike Hosking rips Hagar a new one on ZB: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/listen-on-demand/audio/1592045740-mhb---nicky-hager--dirty-politics Ripped to bits, which BTW wasn't a hard task to do at all. What a joke, his sneaky contact steals emails, hacks into another computer which is highly illegal and writes a book about somebody from National hacking into Labours computers. Who knows of anybody that has those skills? Wait, Kim.com has been sent to prison for hacking. :cool: Is it OK from him to do something so low in his own words. Hypocrisy in action from Hager right there. Whale Oil has a book a day on Labour.

How clean is David Cunliffe? Have a look at this bribery scandal from Cunliffe from our good friends at Whale Oil (http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/07/dirt-help/).
The NZ voting public has had enough of this dirty politics from Labour and the left and I think there could be a huge backlash against the loonie left and their childish games.
Lets help Labour from their new home below 20% where they belong.
Don't forget to click the link showing David Cunliffe caught bribing (http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/07/dirt-help/) somebody that went to him for help for goodness sake. Sick right there man.

Harvey Specter

14-08-2014, 09:09 AM

This bit concerns me enormously ... Also in 2011 the PM's office used its knowledge of secret SIS documents to tip off Slater and arrange an attack on Labour leader Phil Goff, and drafted Official Information Act requests for Slater to use in other attacks. From my reading of the news and tweets this morning, what you raise, and Collins abuse of power to get a inmate moved appear to be the only damning things in the book. The rest is well know. And Labour does it too (not not as well) with the likes of TheStandard and Bomber.

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 09:20 AM

Did we listen to the same recording? LOL.

Hosking tries, quite unsuccessfully, to pretend that this is "normal" and all parties have been doing this. Further, Hosking's bias results in him talking over Hagar, interrupting him and not responding to any of the valid points Hagar's makes.

Typical Hosking. I wonder if he's been privy to the Prime Minister's office's "dirty little tricks" and has something to hide? ... Seems likely doesn't it?You're delusional & clearly have a belief which is held with strong conviction, despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 09:42 AM

I do. So you know someone.

This is part of my job, i.e. to protect my clients from such vulnerabilities, and we have tools, many are the same that hackers use, to probe sites to ensure their content is protected.

When Whale Oil's site was rumoured to be exposed to two vulnerabilities and basic ones at that, a junior colleague of mine checked and the rumour was correct. In fact it was more than two vulnerabilities and others were found. Probing for weakness does not break any law. Exploiting those weakness, or assisting others to exploit them, is against the law.belg, Hager exploited those weakness and wrote a book about it, the Labour computer was not hacked liked Whale Oil's, it had a hole in it. That's not hacking and information was read because of Labours slackness on their own part. Thanks for clearing that up belg, so National can go ahead with criminal proceeding against Hager & Labour needs to hire better I.T staff. Well that's that then.

Copy & paste from the NZ Herald "In 2011, Slater was alerted to a hole in the Labour Party website which allowed him to access huge amounts of personal information about members." Full article. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11308458) A hole is left by the author on the Labour website, whereas a hacker is criminal activity for which Kim Dot Com has been convicted for and sent to prison. Your junior colleague better not of discussed what he found when hacking into the Whale Oil website, otherwise he too could be facing time behind bars.

Banksie

14-08-2014, 09:49 AM

It is rather telling to me that rather than produce evidence to refute the facts the first thing Key and Slater do is attack the author:

Hager was "drawing pictures, drawing dots, thinks that he's got a picture of a conspiracy but he's actually got a bunch of squiggly lines, something a 4-year-old at kindergarten would draw", Slater said.

Ahead of today's launch, Prime Minister John Key dismissed Mr Hager saying: "Most people know that Nicky Hager is a screaming left-wing conspiracy theorist."

Disclaimer: I have no idea if what is in Hager's book is true or not. I am merely commenting on the blues reaction.

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 09:52 AM

It is rather telling to me that rather than produce evidence to refute the facts the first thing Key and Slater do is attack the author:

Hager was "drawing pictures, drawing dots, thinks that he's got a picture of a conspiracy but he's actually got a bunch of squiggly lines, something a 4-year-old at kindergarten would draw", Slater said.

Ahead of today's launch, Prime Minister John Key dismissed Mr Hager saying: "Most people know that Nicky Hager is a screaming left-wing conspiracy theorist."What do you want, maybe you would get warm fuzzes if they both congelated him. Get off the grass man.

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 10:00 AM

Update on the hole left by Labour ..... The Labour website wasn't hacked nor was it a hole, they actually left it wide open for everyone. I'm thinking massive backfire here and John Key is not happy but this new low form of dirty tricks. Maybe Labour will find out what it is like to be part of the 10% club like their buddies.

Sgt Pepper

14-08-2014, 10:06 AM

Mike Hosking rips Hagar a new one on ZB: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/listen-on-demand/audio/1592045740-mhb---nicky-hager--dirty-politics

Mike Hosking????? Journalist?? Yeah right

Sgt Pepper

14-08-2014, 10:11 AM

All this has done is created a great big free advertisement for whaleoil.co.nz. Cameron Slater et al will be loving this.
BC
two things
1. Cameron Slater: career over
2. Early morning call to Crosby Textor from John Key " oh ...sh.t.... HELP" !!!!

Harvey Specter

14-08-2014, 10:12 AM

This is part of my job, i.e. to protect my clients from such vulnerabilities, and we have tools, many are the same that hackers use, to probe sites to ensure their content is protected.

When Whale Oil's site was rumoured to be exposed to two vulnerabilities and basic ones at that, a junior colleague of mine checked and the rumour was correct. In fact it was more than two vulnerabilities and others were found. Probing for weakness does not break any law. Exploiting those weakness, or assisting others to exploit them, is against the law.Would hacking the computer also give access to facebook and gmail?

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 10:14 AM

Clearly, my last 15 years specialising in this area has been wasted. And the owners of the highly secure systems I've designed and/or tested for vulnerabilities have been wasting their money. I'll let them know that they should have employed The Cuz instead. Got an email address and resume I can forward onto them, Cuz? Wow, looks like it has been wasted, I wouldn't use your services that is for sure. To save you anymore time just look at my update above. Labour did not even have a hole, their website was open. So nada there, however the Whale Oil website was hacked and that would be a criminal offence. If you don't understand that, get out of I.T fast.
Here is another update, Cameron Slater has proof that Kim Dot Com was the hacker. So I was not trying to make a link with his involvement but merely hinting at the truth that is about to be released. This is massive, as massive as a dirty tricks campaign from the left could get. NZs watergate & Hagar could very well be the Fat mans cell mate in short time.
I'm just listening to some audio on the matter and will post it shortly.

Cheers, Cuz.

Banksie

14-08-2014, 10:18 AM

Want a conspiracy theory? Look how similar the adverts for the Internet Party and Spark are ;)

6131

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 10:18 AM

Audio link from Cameron Slater (http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Cameron-Slater-claims-Nicky-Hager-used-hacked-emails-from-Kim-Dotcom-to-write-new-book-Dirty-Politics/tabid/506/articleID/52141/Default.aspx)

fungus pudding

14-08-2014, 10:24 AM

Mike Hosking????? Journalist?? Yeah right

He certainly adopted a very different style when interviewing Cameron. Quite unfair; although it's a breakfast show and that's his style. He's a plonker, but also quite capable of running an unbiased debate when required. He's done it before and will again no doubt.

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 10:29 AM

Want a conspiracy theory? Look how similar the adverts for the Internet Party and Spark are ;)

6131
Wasting their time, maybe tell Labour to hire some decent I.T guys & oh yeah give belgs firm a wide berth. belg, care to tell us your company?

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 10:31 AM

Be warned: The Cuz does not know what he is talking about. See post #5453 for how the law works.And feel free by using quotes where I have got it wrong.

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 11:37 AM

And feel free by using quotes where I have got it wrong. Well it has been one hour since your allegation belg with no proof put up by you, so I guess your non-answer is an answer all by itself. Maybe I can help you out with some I.T matters. BTW, I meant what I said concerning your work colleague after he hacked the Whale Oil website and I will be informing Cameron Slater of this illegal act myself personally.

westerly

14-08-2014, 12:26 PM

Well it has been one hour since your allegation belg with no proof put up by you, so I guess your non-answer is an answer all by itself. Maybe I can help you out with some I.T matters. BTW, I meant what I said concerning your work colleague after he hacked the Whale Oil website and I will be informing Cameron Slater of this illegal act myself personally.

LOL

westerly

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 12:49 PM

LOL

westerlyI bet you belg is not LOLing. This very much seems like a left thing to do, diving into other peoples business & was surprised as hell that belg and his workmates have done that to Whale Oil's website. Especially how we all know his political leanings. If he did infact get all the good oil, he might be very quite on what he read about Labour. Funny how Hagar edited the juicy stuff out about Labour and only used what he thought would be harmful stuff against National. Hagar is a Propaganda puppet for the left & a tool for Dave.

And then we see big Dave saying how disgusted he is the more he reads little Nicky's book. He must be very disgusted in himself then. CUNLIFFE TELLS MAN SEEKING ASSISTANCE – ‘NO DIRT, NO HELP’ (http://CUNLIFFE TELLS MAN SEEKING ASSISTANCE – ‘NO DIRT, NO HELP’)
I wonder if we are all safe from belg if his business hacks computers. Well are we?

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 12:55 PM

BTW belg, be very careful not to disclosed one thing you read on the Whale Oil website that your work hacked into. If you already have, you will find the same laws that Hagar and Dot Com are about to get real familiar with and they are:

Extract from Crimes Act
249Accessing computer system for dishonest purpose
(1)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7
years who, directly or indirectly, accesses any computer system and
thereby, dishonestly or by deception, and without claim of right,—
(a)obtains any property, privilege, service, pecuniary advantage,
benefit, or valuable consideration; or
(b)causes loss to any other person.
(2)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5
years who, directly or indirectly, accesses any computer system with
intent, dishonestly or by deception, and without claim of right,—
(a)to obtain any property, privilege, service, pecuniary advantage,
benefit, or valuable consideration; or
(b)to cause loss to any other person.
(3)In this section, deception has the same meaning as in section
240(2).
Section 249: replaced, on 1 October 2003, by section 15 of the Crimes
Amendment Act 2003 (2003 No 39).

Be very careful belg.

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 01:07 PM

You can? Perhaps you could explain why it took me less than 10 minutes to establish your identity? And then; this'll take longer; why I haven't used this information.

Go for it. Cameron and I are known to each other. He'll be thinking twice. Of that I am sure. ;)You're not very smart are you?

Banksie

14-08-2014, 01:09 PM

My view of the forum:
6133

Can I assume by the number of posts that cuzzie is getting upset about something?

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 01:25 PM

Apparently not. ;)In your own words, "and we have tools, many are the same that hackers use" Your "probed" word and the rest of your cool story about moving your work mate away from work and to his home comes down to trust. Trust and belg don't run together but you and Banksie do, work that one out.

Oh, the not very smart remark by me? That's in reference to you telling everybody on ShareTrader that it took you less than 10 minutes to establish my identity? Did you just probe me or was that a hack? Maybe we should meet up belg & seem as how you know all about me come around to my place now you know who I am & where I live. I might just "probe you a bit" . That won't happen now you know who I am, at least we both know that for sure. Like I said before belg, just be very, very careful where you are heading with all this cr@p. It is creepy for one.

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 01:31 PM

Make that a hack because a probe wont give you info on my identity right. So you are here gloating that you have hacked my info. Maybe time to look at this again. Maybe there is room to fit you in with the Fat Man and little Nicky. That's why you're not very smart belg, you mouth is too big for your own good.

Extract from Crimes Act
249Accessing computer system for dishonest purpose
(1)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7
years who, directly or indirectly, accesses any computer system and
thereby, dishonestly or by deception, and without claim of right,—
(a)obtains any property, privilege, service, pecuniary advantage,
benefit, or valuable consideration; or
(b)causes loss to any other person.
(2)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5
years who, directly or indirectly, accesses any computer system with
intent, dishonestly or by deception, and without claim of right,—
(a)to obtain any property, privilege, service, pecuniary advantage,
benefit, or valuable consideration; or
(b)to cause loss to any other person.
(3)In this section, deception has the same meaning as in section
240(2).
Section 249: replaced, on 1 October 2003, by section 15 of the Crimes
Amendment Act 2003 (2003 No

BDL

14-08-2014, 02:15 PM

Well done Belg.....

slimwin

14-08-2014, 02:16 PM

I wondered why Belg wanted to know more details about where my brother worked once. Do you really spend ask your time trying to identify people on forums? And for what gain?

Sgt Pepper

14-08-2014, 02:26 PM

Apparently it been reported( and photographed) that, unusually, all the lights were on in the ninth floor of the Beehive last night.

I wonder why??

1.Perhaps the Beehive cleaning staff were working late?
2 Perhaps .maintenance staff were testing the lights?

My guess is that JK was having a very long, extended, and unscheduled meeting about something urgent. I wonder what that could be?

fungus pudding

14-08-2014, 02:35 PM

Apparently it been reported( and photographed) that, unusually, all the lights were on in the ninth floor of the Beehive last night.

I wonder why??

I'm not sure how old you are, but by now you should know lights are so people can see in the dark. All buildings have lights.

elZorro

14-08-2014, 02:44 PM

I'm reading the book. Can't put it down, I've read the Crusher Collins chapter. She will probably have to go. She lied to the PM. The main players all lied. What a mess for National :(. If Crosby-Textor can figure a way out of this, they really will be worth the money.

Harvey Specter

14-08-2014, 02:49 PM

Apparently it been reported( and photographed) that, unusually, all the lights were on in the ninth floor of the Beehive last night.My guess is that as well as running the country, they also have an election in a few weeks!

Sgt Pepper

14-08-2014, 02:56 PM

I'm not sure how old you are, but by now you should know lights are so people can see in the dark. All buildings have lights.

FP
The thing is FP, the ninth floor, and most of the beehive the lights are apparently off. I may be quite coincidental, I thought that perhaps John Keys office light were on because he had to stay on to discuss something important and unexpected. Cant imagine what that could be of course.

However I , and no doubt many others, have suspected for sometime with John Key that the "lights are on but no one is at home".

Banksie

14-08-2014, 03:08 PM

FP
The thing is FP, the ninth floor, and most of the beehive the lights are apparently off. I may be quite coincidental, I thought that perhaps John Keys office light were on because he had to stay on to discuss something important and unexpected. Cant imagine what that could be of course.

However I , and no doubt many others, have suspected for sometime with John Key that the "lights are on but no one is at home".

Did anyone hear a shredding machine running?

Sgt Pepper

14-08-2014, 03:23 PM

Did anyone hear a shredding machine running?

Banksie
No, no reported shredding machine noises, but apparently an audible sound of a stressed unidentified male, aged 53. in John Keys office, saying
" OH SH..T, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO"??

Sgt Pepper

14-08-2014, 03:38 PM

My two local bookshops have sold out. Is it online?

Blood money?

Went to UBS in Dunedin to buy a copy this morning at 10.00, completely sold out. In one corner , though, I noticed numerous copies of John Keys biography(hagiography)

Banksie

14-08-2014, 04:10 PM

So I have a question:

If Slater had received the hacked Labour data without the help of Ede, would that be okay? I see that it is wrong for the government or the National party to be involved, and probably even wrong for the journalist/blogger to be involved...but is it okay for a journalist to write an article/book off the back of hacked data?

I am having a bit of a moral debate with myself about this and wonder what others think.

Sgt Pepper

14-08-2014, 05:44 PM

As they have been ...

Just smile and wave, boys. Smile and wave.

Apparently not only were the lights on all night in John Keys office, but a song was also being played over and over

HELP! by the Beatles

elZorro

14-08-2014, 06:00 PM

I must say that I am truly enjoying this thread today. The lefties have been castigated and pilloried most of the time, and when I joined this thread on a share trading site, I thought it would probably be a bad idea.

Winston Peters has made some great comments today, thanks Belgarion.

Mr Peters said allegations within author Nicky Hager's new book Dirty Politics revealed a "very disappointing time in New Zealand politics".
"It's pretty low, not the book....this book is after all the record of the National Party's communications and they can't deny it. It shows it is down and dirty."
"Nobody minds hard politics, that's the name of the business but filth and dirt and sleaze and underhand activities should not be attributable."
Asked what Prime Minister John Key should do given the allegations squared at the National Party within the book, Mr Peters replied: "You will have to ask him but I hope he doesn't say that he didn't know what the SIS and others were doing."
"The SIS declassifying documentation with all the speed in the world, when you all know as journalists and politicians they keep it for the maximum time and sometimes for the maximum of 40 days and this being done in a matter of days goes right to the core of wrongful involvement of a security service in politics, it's just not acceptable."
Mr Peters said dirty campaigning had been building for a while in New Zealand politics.
"What you have got is the very adverse influence of huge money and American-style politics where the leader is being painted as someone you can trust but below him with his knowledge there's every dirty tactic going down and they shouldn't get away with it."
Mr Peters said the book couldn't have come at a better time.
"This is an election about the transparency of both politics, principles and personalities."
"What do you want in a campaign? Not to know or get the inside information on a party this time that has been exposed?"
"The fact is this is the National Party's story collated to their great embarrassment, in one book."
Mr Peters said despite Mr Hager being dismissed by National Party figures as a "left-wing conspiracy theorist" he believed the author had integrity, despite having never met him.
"The Prime Minister and Mr Joyce can go and make those statements but it just doesn't wash and you know why? They're their words, not mine."
Mr Peters said he had lodged a complaint with ministerial services over revelations made about himself in the book.
"I want to know how taxpayers' money was used in that illegal way."
"It's clear as daylight from those communications someone was being employed in the Prime Minister's office not to do a ministerial job but to get dirt and spray dirt around about opponents."
- APNZ (http://www.apnz.co.nz/)

I don't think Winston will be able to side with National after the election, not if he acts on any of these words.

Major von Tempsky

14-08-2014, 06:34 PM

Banksie

14-08-2014, 06:47 PM

MVT, you're from Chch - does the email exchange between CS and PS upset you?

elZorro

14-08-2014, 06:53 PM

YAWN! Nicky Hagar....how did he make/inherit his considerable wealth? Was it through following Labour philosophy?

I bet the sales will be much lower than his previous effort, you can only go to the well so many times.

Comments I've seen in the media is that it will be a 2 day wonder.

What does he/Labour do for an encore?

Based on his attire, I think Nicky Hager (get the name right) is not terribly affluent. The book is only $35 in bookstores, he probably gets about $10 a copy sold. Maybe a lot less. He should outsell Barry Crump though, he deserves to. Congratulations on the hard work paying off, Nicky.

Nicky Hager and Labour don't need an encore. I'm now up to page 77 in the book. If many of the public read or hear about this work, National are not going to be the government after 20th September. They simply don't deserve to be there. The Whale Oil Blog will be dismantled as a sick joke.

All that remains to be found out, is if the NZ public (on average) can handle learning enough about politics to vote National out in 2014.

Banksie

14-08-2014, 07:44 PM

ElZee, do you know if the book is available for download?

Sgt Pepper

14-08-2014, 07:46 PM

elZorro

14-08-2014, 08:01 PM

"Comments I've seen in the media is that it will be a 2 day wonder"

MVT

I didn't realise this scandal was being covered by Fox News?

One possible explanation the lights being on in JKs office last night because he was getting Bill English to read Nicky Hagers book to him.

Now that would make for a great satirical image or cartoon, SP.

Banksie, I'm not sure about a web version, but it's a good read anyway. Great value at $35. There are just heaps of questions about so many people. Skullduggery abounds.

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 08:03 PM

Got a FB account Cuz? Google account? Any other social media accounts? Been on other forums? Yes you have. And consequently you've left a trail only a blind person would miss.

You're dead right its creepy. But you let FB, Google et al do this and it doesn't both you?

Have you got shares in WYN? No? If you did and did due diligence you'd know the software they have for making sense out diverse sets of unstructured and semi-structured data. They have some youtube videos links on their site that show you their s/w in action. Check them out. (BTW, their software is nowhere near as good as is being used by spy agencies, inland revenue, etc. or can be cobbled together using freebees from the I-net. But, WYN has packaged it up and enhances and supports it. That's where WYN's value is.)

Wrong. The information was all publically available on the public internet. No hacks or thefts or breaking and entering required. Nor was there was any need to go anywhere near your computer, mobile phone, etc.Problem for you here belg is your wrong. Nice try moving it sideways though. Most people would have a Facebook account, Google Account, go on other forums, but the only way you can find them or link them without hacking is through my name here - Cuzzie and what sort of politics I like. Cuzzie (my name here) or my choice in politics is known by you true. I do have a Facebook page - true, I do have a Google account - true. No shares in Wynyard though - false. Are you making associations to connect the dots and making a picture similar to Nicky Hager's? Nah, B.S belg you fail because I don't use my Facebook page for politics in any shape or form because it is a business Facebook page as well you know and my Google account is for my business too. No politics or talk of Cuzzie anywhere to be seen. No way to link them to me here period. So how the hell do you know this. Like I said I have done a profile on you and fully know how you operate. Your profile is what you have given me to process & I have the knowhow to take that a step further than most, my Facebook and Google accounts are what you have taken from me. There is a big difference. You can dance or dress it up how you please, but there is no hiding the fact that you on here have said you have the tools & knowhow to hack into computers & you now are pretending you have done it the hard way through Facebook or Google accounts. That's investigation work which is time and money, why bother when you have the tools & knowhow to hack computers. I know investigation work belg, I do it the hard way - clearly not as smart as you computer wise and proud of the fact now you have come out as a hacker. This will give you a chill belg, in my profiling of you, I bet you my bottom dollar that you have been in trouble with the police in the last 10 or 20 years for some kind of powertrip you were having. You love total control and in your mind everyone must be below you. When you meet your match, your mind rushes and you end up saying or doing stupid things & you slip up, like today and I said that you were not too smart. Not smart because you told the world that you can hack computers. You slip up under pressure and do silly things. You know I'm right so there you go, I've hacked your brain. Creepy? I don't believe so. We all profile somebody when we meet them for the first time. It's known as sussing somebody out. I take what I'm given and I'm good at it. You take what is not given belg & that is called stealing. One is legal and one is very much illegal.

Cuzzie

14-08-2014, 08:09 PM

Based on his attire, I think Nicky Hager (get the name right) is not terribly affluent. The book is only $35 in bookstores, he probably gets about $10 a copy sold. Maybe a lot less. He should outsell Barry Crump though, he deserves to. Congratulations on the hard work paying off, Nicky.

Nicky Hager and Labour don't need an encore. I'm now up to page 77 in the book. If many of the public read or hear about this work, National are not going to be the government after 20th September. They simply don't deserve to be there. The Whale Oil Blog will be dismantled as a sick joke.

All that remains to be found out, is if the NZ public (on average) can handle learning enough about politics to vote National out in 2014.Who cares what name he goes by, Hager is a criminal and a hypocrite in the first degree. I wouldn't waste my time or money on his stolen emails, but you would EZ. I like that - at least one sucker I know of. Wait till the fat man is done for hacking computers AGAIN. I'll buy that book. Here's a title, "Fatty & Skinny share a bunk behind bars".

Major von Tempsky

14-08-2014, 08:57 PM

Sgt Pepper

14-08-2014, 09:06 PM

Ha! I thought I recalled aright. Some assiduous Googling and it reveals that Nicky Hagar The Horrible is a spoilt little prat living off inherited wealth who doesn't need to, and doesn't, work for a living. :-)

That of course, is carefully overlooked in Wikipedia no doubt written up by some carefully coached and directed disciple.

My goodness that's a first MVT, a National Party cheerleader who is against inherited wealth!!!!.
Oh by the way, next time you see the President of the National Party, Peter Goodfellow ,try giving him a lecture on the evils of inherited wealth, his response will be interesting to say the least.

But all is good, John Key looks very uncomfortable,
Steven Joyce lost for words, and Crosby Textor are probably going to be asked for a refund.

Vince

15-08-2014, 12:02 AM

elZorro

15-08-2014, 08:06 AM

Er, Vince, were any of the complaints about me? Did I get a mention? :)

elZorro

15-08-2014, 08:10 AM

Ha! I thought I recalled aright. Some assiduous Googling and it reveals that Nicky Hagar The Horrible is a spoilt little prat living off inherited wealth who doesn't need to, and doesn't, work for a living. :-)

That of course, is carefully overlooked in Wikipedia no doubt written up by some carefully coached and directed disciple.

MVT, I couldn't find anything except an insinuation he might be well off. The book mentions that if the bloggers can't find any dirt, they make it up, in their own admissions. In any case, whether Nicky Hager has independent means or not, that probably makes him a better journalist and investigative writer. He's certainly compiled good research to back up the emails and other data.

Harvey Specter

15-08-2014, 08:26 AM

I see the Greens have taken the whole things very seriously indeed and have laid official complaints with multiple bodies. ... 2 day wonder you say MVT? ... Don't you get tired of being wrong all the time or you just wishfully hoping it'll all go away?Deliberate act by the Greens to try and keep it in the media.

Even though they have confirmed they seed information to Bloggers themselves. This is just Nationals 'Hey Clint' moment.

elZorro

15-08-2014, 08:31 AM

NZResources and the irrepressible Dene Mackenzie are keen to help John Key out here.

But I think John is on very dangerous ground if he continues to assert that he knows nothing about how and when Mr Ede fed data through to Cameron Slater and others. Some of that data could only have come from him, with his specific access to top secret documents.

The book: Key shifts blame to the left
By Dene Mackenzie
Prime Minister John Key believes an orchestrated campaign by left-wing activists led up to the release on Wednesday of Nicky Hager's book which contained damning allegations against the National Party.
First, came the Kim Dotcom video encouraging young people to chant “F...k John Key”. Then came an effigy of his likeness being burnt and posted online, followed by a billboard defacement campaign and a parody song, since ruled out by the Electoral Commission.
“Then comes the book containing baseless allegations.” Asked in Dunedin about Hager's book - Dirty Politics: How attack politics is poisoning New Zealand's political environment - John Key said Hager joined a whole lot of dots that could not be connected.
“There has been a build up from the left all week until Wednesday. That's when you have people saying we can't beat National on policy let's throw muck and see what happens.”
Key, despite constant questioning, denied any involvement of the National Party, his staff or National Party staff in the allegations contained in the book.
He constantly attempted to turn around the allegations against the political left. And, while not saying the emails were a work of fiction, the Prime Minister carefully skirted around the issue saying he was unlikely to take a serious look at any of the allegations. He was not likely to read the book before the election and his staff had said there was nothing for Key to investigate, he said.
John Key said he would be happy for any investigation to be undertaken by any agency into the allegations, and when told the Green Party wanted a Royal Commission inquiry, he urged them to go for it.
He again accused Nick Hager of being a left-wing conspiracy theorist and said any actions undertaken by Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater were undertaken solely by Slater and not under direction of the National Party.
Some of the damning emails published by Hager alleged conspiracy between National Party staff member Jason Ede and Slater. But Key gave a tacit approval if Ede had undertaken trawling through Labour's website after Slater alerted the site was open to public scrutiny.
Key denied to the Otago Daily Times he had any involvement in any of the allegations contained in the book and was particularly annoyed he was said to have made offensive remarks about a West Coast resident.
“That type of speech is not me.”
Labour Party secretary Tim Barnett said Labour was seeking legal and other advice and would consider the matter at its scheduled New Zealand Council meeting at the weekend in Auckland.
“Meanwhile, we are focusing on running a positive campaign centred on the issues New Zealanders are telling us they care most about - work, home and families,” he said.
Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei said the party planned to lodge a series of complaints with the Police, Parliamentary Service, the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security and the Privacy Commissioner.
She said John Key had degraded New Zealand's democracy.
“The National Government is up to its neck in dirty politics and may have broken the law while smearing opponents. The NZ public cannot have any confidence in our democracy until these claims are investigated.”
A police spokesman said any complaint received by police in relation to the book “will be assessed in line with our normal process. We cannot provide a timeline for how long this may take.”
In contrast to some of the claims in the book National wanted to reduce voter turnout, Key told those attending an Otago Chamber of Commerce function to make sure they urged their friends to vote. He expressed concern voter numbers were falling and were possibly headed to a below 70% turnout from a turnout of more than 90% six elections ago.
Labour MP Grant Robertson asked a series of questions in an emailed statement, one of which was what involvement Key or his office had in release of SIS material to Slater.
Key denied any involvement and said all the decisions to release any material were made by the SIS. And he reiterated he and his team gave no direction to Ede.
*Dene Mackenzie is political editor of the Otago Daily Times.

Read the book, is my suggestion. The Whale Oil and Kiwiblog blog sites cost money to run. They are funded by businesses who have dubious products like alcohol and tobacco to promote, by wannabe electoral candidates for safe seats, and in particular by the National Party itself. They are fed some of the blog posts by all and sundry, and the time of placement is prescribed. Sometimes the volume is overwhelming, depending on how much they need to move opinion, and how important it is. It's all in the book (Dirty Politics).

That's why sometimes (apparently) Cameron Slater shows both sides of the one argument. it's not because he's balanced, sometimes he's being paid from both sides, or has a personal agenda to squash someone.

On another note, here's where National policy is leading us. We have the macabre sight of Chinese workers fixing their railway wagons under warranty, with the workers being paid US$40 a day, here in NZ. What are they living on? Where are they staying? Did they bring all their food and bedding with them?

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1408/S00513/alleged-exploitation-of-chinese-workers.htm

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 08:42 AM

Folks,

I've had so many complaints this week about things on here. I'm not going to start moderating peoples views or political standings (even if their wrong).

Please, can we keep it chilled a little and no threating to punch people, or saying that people have multiple aliases.

Regards,
Vince Let me say loud and clear that I have not complained to Vince or any other Mod with anything to do concerning, "threatening to punch people or that people have multiple aliases, but seen as how Vince has had many complaints this week and we seem to have a serial complainer, I will make one to Vince in front of everyone so they can see it. Here we go.

Vince, I am most offended that belg has come out on ShareTrader and told everybody he has the knowhow & tools to hack peoples computers aka Nicky Hager style then gloated everyone on here that he had taken less than 10 minutes to establish my identity. The quote is below and from #5469 on page 365 of this thread. I've also sent you a P.M to direct you to this post. I like keeping it upfront and honest.

Cheers Cuzzie.

You can? Perhaps you could explain why it took me less than 10 minutes to establish your identity? And then; this'll take longer; why I haven't used this information.

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 08:53 AM

Deliberate act by the Greens to try and keep it in the media.

Even though they have confirmed they seed information to Bloggers themselves. This is just Nationals 'Hey Clint' moment.

Certainly must have a bunch of speed-readers in the Greens. Or possibly they helped Hager write his book. That'd be a laugh.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 08:54 AM

elZorro

15-08-2014, 09:02 AM

The people have voted in the latest poll. Wow look at Labour take off. Check out these numbers.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/polls/10385525/Labour-at-new-low

Looks like my prediction of Labour been in the 20% club is becoming reality. The lesson is dirty negative politics doesn't work and Labour is incapable of learning that lesson. Good thing too.

BTW, it sure is a beautiful day out there and I'm happy.:)

Cuzzie, the poll can only be that low for Labour, because National's dirty tricks brigade has been running at full steam for months. Well, that process is about to be derailed. I guarantee we'll see Labour polling strongly soon.

You know how anything Shearer or Cunliffe did (or said) was nitpicked over the years and then blogged for all it was worth? Straight out of the USA liberal party copybook. Then the lazy press picks it up in NZ, because the print advert revenue dropoff means there are fewer reporters. Labour haven't been doing that, but National did it with gusto. It works, but it's not polite or ethical.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 09:03 AM

This link has the graphs. http://origin-interactives.stuff.co.nz/polling/

You know, I really do beleive that the best thing for National right now is their oppersition, or lack of it. Internet Mana has speed up the Lefts downfall. D.C is no leader and the people know it, but when your political partners are the Greens which hand brake progress, Winston Peters who has Tim Shadbolts idea of "I don't care as long as I'm Mayor"[& he doesn't care] and then enter the Internet Mana disaster which drives voters to National in droves, there was never going to be a victory for the loonie left. Meanwhile, EZ is reading his new bible and belg is looking at private photos on my computer or something. What is wrong with the left, FGS it is right in front of your nose which most Kiwis can see.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 09:10 AM

Cuzzie, the poll can only be that low for Labour, because National's dirty tricks brigade has been running at full steam for months. Well, that process is about to be derailed. I guarantee we'll see Labour polling strongly soon.

You know how anything Shearer or Cunliffe did (or said) was nitpicked over the years and then blogged for all it was worth? Straight out of the USA liberal party copybook. Then the lazy press picks it up in NZ, because the print advert revenue dropoff means there are fewer reporters. Labour haven't been doing that, but National did it with gusto. It works, but it's not polite or ethical.Oh right, oh OK. You've just got to laugh. EZ, try to fix the problems not explain them away. Help kickstart the Labour party if you love them so much. Climb out of the negative rubbish and do something positive for Labour. You just don't get it do you. It is not working man, Labour politics is just plainly and simply not working. Forget about their policies, they have some good ones BTW, but it is their very negative political style that will let them down every time. That book you are reading wont help you one little bit. In fact it will make you even more negative than you already are.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 09:12 AM

The executive director and publisher at Craig Potton Publishing, Robbie Burton, said the entire first run of Dirty Politics - 4000 copies - sold out by lunchtime today.

"Truth is we've been completely overwhelmed by the level of interest," he said.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/books/10384028/Dirty-Politics-Industry-overwhelmed-by-demand

Well I guess that explains why I couldn't get a copy.

Oh dear. #TeamKey looks to be in some trouble. I laughed so hard reading this post I had water in my eyes. Did you see that through my Skype Cam belg.

elZorro

15-08-2014, 09:15 AM

Oh right, oh OK. You've just got to laugh. EZ, try to fix the problems not explain them away. Help kickstart the Labour party if you love them so much. Climb out of the negative rubbish and do something positive for Labour. You just don't get it do you. It is not working man, Labour politics is just plainly and simply not working. Forget about their policies, they have some good ones BTW, but it is their very negative political style that will let them down every time. That book you are reading wont help you one little bit. In fact it will make you even more negative than you already are.

Cuzzie, I'm smiling from ear to ear, because the data in that book is going to boot National out, and put a Labour coalition back in charge. That poll finished before the Hager book came out, and it'll be 2-3 days before the general population get to hear much about what's in it. I can see the SST story now. It's easy press. Some comments from the "TRACY WATKINS" article you posted, show that many readers know instantly that it'll be a National Party Vote news feed, if her name is on top of it.

"Why don't you just tell us who to vote for?"

Comments

When are these pollsters going to step into the 21st Century? From Ipsos own website:

"The latest estimates put cell phone-only households at 30.2% of the population. Cell-only households, in turn, are systematically different than their landline counterparts: they tend to be less white, more liberal, less affluent, and younger."

Likewise Colmar-Brunton only survey people with landlines. The effect of these unscientific, out-dated and inaccurate methods are to skew the result and encourage low voter turnout.

The only poll that matters is the final count.
Meanwhile, other papers who hardly report it are worth reading. And the sun is shining. That's more newsworthy.

+5

(http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/polls/10385525/Labour-at-new-low#)
(http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/polls/10385525/Labour-at-new-low#)

Journalistic integrity hits a new low. You might as well have told us who to vote for too.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 09:16 AM

My goodness that's a first MVT, a National Party cheerleader who is against inherited wealth!!!!.
Oh by the way, next time you see the President of the National Party, Peter Goodfellow ,try giving him a lecture on the evils of inherited wealth, his response will be interesting to say the least.

But all is good, John Key looks very uncomfortable,
Steven Joyce lost for words, and Crosby Textor are probably going to be asked for a refund.You mean kind of like this from our Labor cousins across the ditch S.P?

Daughter of late NSW Premier Wran on murder charges (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11309115)

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 09:20 AM

Cuzzie, I'm smiling from ear to ear, because the data in that book is going to boot National out, and put a Labour coalition back in charge. That poll finished before the Hager book came out, and it'll be 2-3 days before the general population get to hear much about what's in it.

Cliff Richard will be the talking point to bury this by the morning. Fancy the nasty National party putting Cliff up to this!

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 09:27 AM

EZ, here are some copy & paste notes from that article for you to digest. I couldn't read your post as something appears to of gone wrong with it. Here's mine:

Labour has plumbed new depths in our latest poll as the election takes an ugly turn after a day rocked by allegations of blackmail, dirty politics and pushing and shoving on the campaign trail.The Stuff.co.nz/Ipsos Political Poll has National on 55.10 per cent, virtually unchanged from July, while Labour has sunk to 22.5, down 2.4 percentage points.
A surprise mover are the Conservatives, which have jumped to 3.4 per cent, level pegging with NZ First.
Slater said he would consider legal action forcing Hager to name the source of the leaked emails.
Key is at 54.3 per cent as preferred prime minister, compared with Labour leader David Cunliffe on 12 per cent.
The poll, of at least 1,000 New Zealand residents who are eligible to vote, is a kick in the guts to Labour, which has steadily bled support since this time last year. On today’s numbers it would lose five MPs to just 29, putting even some senior front bench MPs at risk.
National would comfortably govern alone with 72 seats.

That's what I call good reading and they are facts - cold hard facts. Not cool stories by little Nicky.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 09:29 AM

Cliff Richard will be the talking point to bury this by the morning. Fancy the nasty National party putting Cliff up to this! I like it fungus pudding:D

elZorro

15-08-2014, 09:33 AM

Cliff Richard will be the talking point to bury this by the morning. Fancy the nasty National party putting Cliff up to this!

FP, since you don't have to work too hard in the line of business you're in, were you one of the 80 listening to John Key yesterday? John did look decidedly shaky on TV. He warmed up though, right? There's probably no truth in the book at all. It's all made up. Yeah right.

15/8/2014 — Economics, Politics and Government
Key takes time to warm up in Dunedin
By Dene Mackenzie
A different type of John Key fronted up to an Otago Chamber of Commerce lunch function in Dunedin yesterday - a Prime Minister who appeared to be showing the strain of the past few days.
Key flew into the city and into a storm of controversy, facing the media pack for the first time to answer questions regarding Nicky Hager's controversial book - Dirty Politics: how attack politics is poisoning New Zealand's political environment.
Before facing the media, Key visited the Chatsford Rest Home, in Mosgiel, and then on to Forsyth Barr Stadium where about 80 people had paid between $50 and $75 to hear his view on the world.
Key did not look entirely at ease as he arrived and attempted small talk with a few of those attending before he was whisked to the front of the room and the lectern.
After a perfunctory welcome, he rose to his feet and lectured the audience in a rapid fire delivery which seemed at odds with his normal engaging style. It was a cold room and Key failed to warm it up.
The usual statistics were rolled out regarding economic growth, unemployment falling, investment in the regions, returning to surplus and the increased spending on health, education and science.
The Prime Minister seemed ill at ease for someone usually so skilled at having an audience warm to him quickly in formal situations. The audience, of ages ranging from 30 upwards, sat still totally focusing on what he was saying.
While mentioning Dunedin-listed company Scott Technology, Key seemed a bit more enthusiastic - but it was not until he started explaining MMP to the audience, and the importance of the party vote, he showed any signs of animation.
Emphasising the only vote which mattered was the party vote, Key started gesticulating as he urged those present to head home and phone 20 of their friends to urge them to vote National first then any candidate they liked, though he preferred Dunedin North candidate and Immigration Minister Michael Woodhouse and Dunedin South candidate Hamish Walker to get the tick.
He jokingly warned Waitaki MP Jacqui Dean if she did not win in a landslide, he would speak to her later - bringing the first audience laughter of the day.
John Key's first genuine and warm smile came while answering a question on tertiary education when he proudly told the audience his son Max was at Auckland University doing a double degree and two majors.
After speaking, Key took time out to talk to a few people in the audience before facing persistent questioning on Nick Hager's book. Following an unexpected public walkabout, which caught officials by surprise, Key went to the Otago Daily Times Class Act function at the Dunedin Public Art Gallery.
By now, a good-natured and ebullient John Key addressed pupils, parents, and other guests, joking to Otago Daily Times editor Murray Kirkness the newspaper might endorse the National Party on September 19, the day before the general election. This was in response to Kirkness' speech, in which the editor gave a self-professed “plug” for parents to buy copies of the newspaper featuring the secondary school achievement event.
“When you said `here's for the plug' that wasn't quite the plug I was thinking you were about to say, but you should feel free to throw that in the editorial on the 19th of September.”
Key emphasised the importance of attitude - not just ability - to achieving goals in life. He recalled his mother's advice to him growing up, which was that “you get out of life what you put into it. We have an election coming up, and if we win it I'll be back for 2015, and if we don't, I'll read about it [in the ODT].”
University Book Shop general manager Phillippa Duffy said Nick Hager’s book sold out within about two hours of arriving.
*Dene Mackenzie is political editor of the Otago Daily Times.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 09:55 AM

All copy & pasted, but get your laughing gear around this.

"I started reading more fully the Nicky Hager (http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/tag/nicky_hager) book yesterday, and the footnotes in the book. To my shock I realised that Hager had info in the book that could not have come from the hacking of Cameron Slater, but could only have come from my computer, my apartment or my office.
Specifically he refers to copies of two scripts used by my company, Curia (http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/tag/curia) Research, this year. There is absolutely no way they could have come from Cameron Slater’s computer systems, as Cameron doesn’t have them. No one has them but me and my office.
I thought about how this could have happened. The two most likely scenarios are that my computer systems have also been hacked, or that someone physically removed the scripts from my office (or possibly apartment). All of these scenarios make me feel sick, and make me worry about the security of the 100+ staff working for me.
Some of the material is very recent – from June 2014 – just two months ago. I think the most likely thing is that someone joined the staff (we recruit often) with the purpose of acquiring material from my office. There’s no evidence of a break in, and I tend to keep my computer systems fairly secure.

I am sure the official explanation will be that the scripts just turned up in an envelope somewhere, and they have no idea how they got there. I think that is bull****. Most of my staff are young students, who I can’t imagine would suddenly decide to send a copy of my scripts to Nicky Hager in the post.
I consider this outrageous, just as I hope people would if someone from the right infiltrated the offices of the Labour Party pollsters, to steal their material.
There is no public interest defence to the stealing of the material belonging to my clients. There was nothing sinister or inappropriate in it. In fact one of the scripts detailed in the book is of some questions we did for Family First, who published the results on their website, including the full questions. But I know Hager has a copy of the script as he has quoted the question numbers, which are not included in the published results.
I do not accept that because I am a blogger, and my company has National as a client, it makes it all right for me to be hacked or spied on, and material stolen from me.
This is the second Hager book that has e-mails from or to me. In 2008 (off memory) a left wing activist gained entry to a social function I was at, and covertly tape recorded conversations. My office has been infiltrated. To be honest, I’m pretty disgusted at the moment as I consider the pattern over several years.
I don’t hold the left generally responsible. I have many many friends involved in politics on the left. I’ve appreciated their support in recent days. They are good people. I think most Labour and Green MPs are good people. But there is an extreme segment of the left who do think that it is okay to hack, steal, record and spy on others, because we are of the right.
Read the rest at Kiwiblog (http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/08/ive_either_been_hacked_or_spied_on.html)

I don’t think Hagar is behind the hacking, spying, stealing or whatever may have taken place.
But he is the recipient of the fruits of someone resourced enough to pull it off.
Worse, the material he got was highly redacted – none of it talks about left leaning parties or personalities.
As I said – doubt he’s sleeping very well. What a rushed botch job."

All right, end of copy & paste and will call it now. I think this is going to totally blow the Left wing apart and we will see multiple criminal charges against the author, the hacker, the publisher of little Nicky's book and a few more. National is heading for a landslide thanks to the loonie left, after all there is no way Labour can pull back 30%. They won't be getting any right of center votes, that is for sure. A shot in the foot, foot in the mouth abortion by the left. Jezz they are a funny bunch.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 10:03 AM

More break down from the latest poll:

The gap between the right and left blocs is 27 seats.Labour’s support by demographic is:

Men 18%
Women 27%
Auckland 25%
Upper NI 16%
Wellington 23%
Lower NI 30%
Canterbury 14%
SI 27%
Under 30s 26%
30 to 44 25%
45 to 64 21%
65+ 19%

Note this poll was taken after their announcement of free GP visits for elderly New Zealanders, and after their campaign launch which is meant to be what gives you a boost in the polls. You can't fool, bribe or buy the olds, they are too wise for that rubbish!!!

There’s going to some very nervous Labour List MPs on this result, who will be cursing the unions and activists for their choice of leader. The above info is from Kiwiblog.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 10:05 AM

John Key said if the website was in the public domain as he maintains Labour’s was then ‘‘of course it would be fine’’ for staff to trawl through it.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10385538/Pressure-points-exposed

Sorry John you might be the Prime Minister but are wrong. (Geez even the Cuzzie knows that now after repetitively posting the law yesterday!)

And just because you say its not a crime does not make it so. Theft is a crime and you just look incredibly foolish, not to mention, completely untrustworthy, to pretend otherwise.

And people vote for this scumbag? Sheesh!Yes there will be quite a few nevious Loonie left fanboys wont there belg, that's of course why you are stating the opposite here. The left are in the cr@p with the law and the left are in the cr@p with the polls. Facts, not speculation.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 10:24 AM

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 10:26 AM

elZorro

15-08-2014, 10:28 AM

David Farrar's main income for the Kiwiblog site and his Curia business is probably from the National Party. It pays him a retainer to (amongst other things) take a team of twelve or so canvassers into the National Party offices in Willis St, Wellington, for three nights a week. This is where John Key's polling data comes from. He's a more polite version of Whale Oil with his site, but it's still strongly pro-National, and he networks with Cameron Slater. They ping posts backwards and forwards on important issues they've been paid to 'sort out'.

The National Party work seems to be Curia's biggest client by far.

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 10:29 AM

elZorro

15-08-2014, 10:36 AM

Think what you like about Ian Wishart, but here is the thing about him. He is in the same line as Nicky Hager more or less. The difference appears to be Ian Wishart appears to base his books on proof - absolute proof. I've read all Wisharts books - all of them. Wishart knows that anything he puts into print must be factual. So he knows the rules when writing these kinds of books. Here is Ian Wishart's take on little Nicky's poor effort.

IS NICKY HAGER AN UNETHICAL HYPOCRITE? (http://www.investigatemagazine.co.nz/Investigate/12926/breaking-news-nicky-hager-breach-basic-journalism-standards-new-dirty-politics-book/)

Man I can smell serious jail time coming.

Did Ian Wishart read the same book? When I read it, the conclusion I came to was that Nicky was showing the reader the disgusting lengths that Cameron Slater would go to, to find the dirt on someone he was after. It was a personal crusade of his to get rid of Len Brown, because he was a leftie. He wasn't being paid to do this, by the sound of it. He tried it anyway, and in this case no extra information was forthcoming. The secondary reason for this behaviour was to put the fear of retaliation into anyone that crossed his path.

If you look at the disclaimer at the bottom of the article, you'll see that Ian Wishart and Nicky Hager might not be the best of mates at the moment.

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 10:40 AM

Did Ian Wishart read the same book? When I read it, the conclusion I came to was that Nicky was showing the reader the disgusting lengths that Cameron Slater would go to, to find the dirt on someone he was after. It was a personal crusade of his to get rid of Len Brown, because he was a leftie. He wasn't being paid to do this, by the sound of it. He tried it anyway, and in this case no extra information was forthcoming. The secondary reason for this behaviour was to put the fear of retaliation into anyone that crossed his path.

If you look at the disclaimer at the bottom of the article, you'll see that Ian Wishart and Nicky Hager might not be the best of mates at the moment.

They're both complete plonkers. More importantly do you reckon Cliff's guilty eZ?

Banksie

15-08-2014, 10:56 AM

Ian Wishart is missing the point ... Hager doesn't say these things.

Feeling a little frustrated that I can't get hold of the book but that was my immediate reaction to Ian's article. Surely it wasn't Hager making the allegations, rather he was writing about others making the allegations.

Looks like the straw-men are going up.

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 10:59 AM

Feeling a little frustrated that I can't get hold of the book but that was my immediate reaction to Ian's article. Surely it wasn't Hager making the allegations, rather he was writing about others making the allegations.

Looks like the straw-men are going up.

Stick to the important stuff; what do you reckon about Cliff Banksie?

Sgt Pepper

15-08-2014, 11:01 AM

Some observations on the current scandal and the implications for the election, of which I would be interested in others opinions

Firstly, I concede I could be wrong, but I am not sure, at this stage whether this a game changer for the election. Although we are a long way from the bottom of this swamp.

1.Judith Collins: game over here, her political career is finished. In contrast Paula Bennett and many other ambitious National MPs are no doubt, at this time privately delighted.

2.The unfolding scandals toxic effects will probably be delivered after the election. Numerous , rather large chickens are coming home to roost, and we must be mindful we haven't seen the GCSB, and what JK knew fully come to fruition yet.

3. It is quite possible that John Key, if National form the next government ,will not see out his term. If he senses in any way that there is a high probability that scandals will catch up with him and stick, he will bail out, gently pushed by Bill English, Paula Bennett and Michael Woodhouse.

Banksie

15-08-2014, 11:30 AM

Stick to the important stuff; what do you reckon about Cliff Banksie?

You voting national FP?

Edit: Doesn't matter FP - I went back and looked at some of your old posts, to remind myself why you are not on my ignore list. Come on mate you are better than this. Debate the issue. If you really want to talk about Cliff, open up a thread.

Interestingly enough I was at Bramall Lane in the early 80s as a teenager, busy trying to see if I can regurgitate a repressed memory ;).

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 11:38 AM

S.P & EZ, Ian Wishart has pointed out that:

Neither Brown nor Hide appear to have been asked to comment on the truth of the allegations. In fact, Hide has definitely confirmed he was not approached, and that the allegations are false and without substance.

In Nicky Hager’s new book, he has no witnesses at all; no prostitutes admitting to sleeping with Len Brown, no ex-spouse, no woman saying she was sent inappropriate texts by Rodney Hide. Hager’s entire ream of “evidence” is actually hearsay gossip, which is usually inadmissible in court.

So there you go, it can only be "hearsay gossip' at best and now the book is out that is very damning indeed. Not only is there an admission by Hager that all information has been obtained ILLEGALLY by hacking into one's computer but there is also defamation against multiple people. This can only end badly for Hager, the hacker who looks very much like being the one & only Kin Dot Com, the author and publisher of Hagers book. This could be very big news and a massive backlash for the loonie left. Any way you look at it, this can only end badly for all involved in this fabrication of fairy tales. One thing is for sure, the Lawyers are going to make plenty out of this so Hager better had sell plenty of books before it is banned. Seriously, I would be very nerious if I was Hager or the fat man right now.

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 12:07 PM

You voting national FP?

Yes, I will be. As I have often said, I vote against the party or parties who I think will do most harm. This time I put Internet/Mana, The Greens and Labour in that category. Voting National is the only effective vote for me. Besides I like a lot of National's policies and certainly think they've done a good job to date.

elZorro

15-08-2014, 12:14 PM

Banksie

15-08-2014, 12:22 PM

Yes, I will be. As I have often said, I vote against the party or parties who I think will do most harm. This time I put Internet/Mana, The Greens and Labour in that category. Voting National is the only effective vote for me. Besides I like a lot of National's policies and certainly think they've done a good job to date.

Great, I respect that.

If you believe Greens and Labour will do harm - then yeah, National is the way to go. On the other hand Internet/Mana, even if they are in the ruling coalition what will they have 2, maybe 3, seats? Will they really be able to have much of an impact on they way the country is run?

I do believe the smaller parties throw out extreme policies, well knowing they will never be able to implement them, it is just to scoop up the voters at the extreme of the political spectrum.

Did you watch the minor party debate on Saturday? I was surprised how well some of the candidates came across. Not the wide-eyed radicals they are made out to be.

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 12:36 PM

FP, that is bull. You want to delay the onset of a CGT, not much else matters to you, does it. Which of National's steady-as-she goes, 'let's not do anything but borrow and sell off state assets' "policies" do you like the most? What other legacy will they leave behind to mark their two terms?

I have nothing against a CGT. It certainly will not affect me; I've long since retired from investing and present holdings will be grandfathered. Nor will it affect property traders, as it will not apply in addition to income tax . I just hope if ever adopted it is clearly thought out and designed properly. Allah forbid we end up with crap like the Australian scheme.

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 02:06 PM

Great, I respect that.

If you believe Greens and Labour will do harm - then yeah, National is the way to go. On the other hand Internet/Mana, even if they are in the ruling coalition what will they have 2, maybe 3, seats? Will they really be able to have much of an impact on they way the country is run?

I do believe the smaller parties throw out extreme policies, well knowing they will never be able to implement them, it is just to scoop up the voters at the extreme of the political spectrum.

Did you watch the minor party debate on Saturday? I was surprised how well some of the candidates came across. Not the wide-eyed radicals they are made out to be.

Yes, watched the debate. Internet/mana are a oncer. They will split as soon as parliament reconvenes and internet will not be around in 3 years. I went to listen to Dotcom and highly Scary the other night. Hilarious nonsense. It's sad though that they get support. They could not appeal to anyone with any understanding of the world. The worst thing about them is they look to have killed off The Maori party. Tariana Turia and Pita Sharples were the best thing that ever happened in the Maori world. They sure surprised and impressed me. But your point - will internet/mana have much influence? Yes. Cunliffe will bend Hone's way on some things if they can form a coalition. Hone is licking his chops and so is Highly Scary at the prospect. That is why I donated to Kelvin Davis' electorate - cos Labour will not support or promote their own candidate, but can't come out and say so because they were critical of the Epsom arrangement. That's my sermon for today.

Banksie

15-08-2014, 02:35 PM

It's sad though that they get support. They could not appeal to anyone with any understanding of the world.

Hopefully they are also appealing to people who would not have otherwise voted - and here is the crux - if these new voters feel like their vote is wasted, they'll be less inclined to vote next time. On the other hand, if they do happen to get a seat and have some policies passed, hell even if it is only free beer on Fridays, they will start feeling enfranchised. And that is a good thing. An engaged voter can be influenced whereas disengaged/disenfranchised voters will eventually revolt.

I don't feel the Internet Party have a fully developed set of policies, but I can see some that they could use as bargaining tools, such as cheaper universal internet, that should be good for everyone - and many of their other policies overlap with Labour/Green policies so they could claim the win anyway.

Mana, I am not so sure - are they any particular policies of their's that you think Hone would play hard-ball with that would be bad for NZ?

Major von Tempsky

15-08-2014, 03:14 PM

One of your many problems Belge, is that you never have a fallback position for when you are wrong, your only recourse is to shut-up on the particular point/subject and hope people won't remember while you burst recklessly into print on some other subject you know little about. Nor are you ever prepared to say you don't know when you don't. Nor are you ever prepared to accept the majority verdict which you need to be able to do to live in a democracy.
Nor do you do any background reading e.g. economic history, mathematical models of the advantages of Specialisation and Free Trade which have made the 13 colonies of the USA - expanded to 50 States, followed by the EU, rich.

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 03:40 PM

Hopefully they are also appealing to people who would not have otherwise voted - and here is the crux - if these new voters feel like their vote is wasted, they'll be less inclined to vote next time. On the other hand, if they do happen to get a seat and have some policies passed, hell even if it is only free beer on Fridays, they will start feeling enfranchised. And that is a good thing. An engaged voter can be influenced whereas disengaged/disenfranchised voters will eventually revolt.

I don't feel the Internet Party have a fully developed set of policies, but I can see some that they could use as bargaining tools, such as cheaper universal internet, that should be good for everyone - and many of their other policies overlap with Labour/Green policies so they could claim the win anyway.

Mana, I am not so sure - are they any particular policies of their's that you think Hone would play hard-ball with that would be bad for NZ?

Here's what they will deliver according to Highly Scary. (N.B. Not would like, will, which you and I know is not possible, but I assure you some of her audience actually believe it will happen.) Her words were well chosen but an unsophisticated audience has no idea of MMP or parliamentary process.
Minimum wage will be $18.80. No GST on anything. Free education including tertiary, school breakfasts for all and a few other bits and pieces.
If people don't vote, or don't want to vote, so-be-it.
I'd hate to see compulsory voting as in Australia, where the disinterested wander in, scratch a piece of paper with no idea who or what is on it. That's far worse than not voting at all. It's one thing to tax people and use that money to buy votes as Labour do and National to a lesser extent; but another matter entirely to make out the things mentioned will happen if they get into parliament.

Banksie

15-08-2014, 04:00 PM

Yeah, I can't comment on what Laila said or promised (I can only read their policy statments on the web), I do hope there is a road show in my vicinity and at a suitable time so I can attend. (And - I really do wish we could have intelligent discussion without calling people names. I wasn't sure until I saw the "her" if you were referring to Hone or Laila.)

I'd hate to see compulsory voting as in Australia, where the disinterested wander in, scratch a piece of paper with no idea who or what is on it. That's far worse than not voting at all.

There is a big difference between feeling disinterested and feeling disenfranchised. The disinterested you will never reach, but are you telling me that there is such a big difference in engagement between those in the youngest age group vs those in the oldest age group? (http://www.elections.org.nz/research-statistics/enrolment-statistics-electorate). If there is we are doing something seriously wrong in our education system.

Sorry I go on about dis-/enfranchisement, but coming for a country that has seen the worst of it - I feel quite passionate about the situation. Two things drive crime and violence. Disenfranchisement and a huge gap between the wealthy and the poor.

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 04:16 PM

(And - I really do wish we could have intelligent discussion without calling people names. I wasn't sure until I saw the "her" if you were referring to Hone or Laila.)

Sorry I go on about dis-/enfranchisement, but coming for a country that has seen the worst of it - I feel quite passionate about the situation. Two things drive crime and violence. Disenfranchisement and a huge gap between the wealthy and the poor.

My apologies for confusing you. I can see how the nick-name could equally apply to Hone Harawira.
The gap between rich and poor is not easy to close. Obviously once someone earns more than they spend, it's an easy step to build wealth. Compound interest alone makes a huge difference to someone who has built up some savings. Taxing income is the last way to redistribute the goodies.
Unfortunately you'll have to wait till my book is published if you want the answers. :D

Banksie

15-08-2014, 04:18 PM

Unfortunately you'll have to wait till my book is published if you want the answers. :D

:D.............

Banksie

15-08-2014, 04:20 PM

Interesting playing around with the age groups on these stats.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/polls/10385525/Voters-will-leave-National-in-droves

There has been a shift to the left in the under 45 groups and a shift to the right in the over 45 ones. Given overall there is a shift to the right it would seem that oldies are over represented in this survey.

Edit: Stats at bottom of linked article.

777

15-08-2014, 04:48 PM

Interpretation?

I see it as the more mature voter as realising what would happen with a Labour, and who ever they need, government at this point in time.
Scares the hell out if them.

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 05:23 PM

Interpretation?

I see it as the more mature voter as realising what would happen with a Labour, and who ever they need, government at this point in time.
Scares the hell out if them.

And they're the ones who will be waiting at the door for the polling booth to open. Fear is a great motivator.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 05:27 PM

And they're the ones who will be waiting at the door for the polling booth to open. Fear is a great motivator.And their motivated votes will help win the election for National. It would be interesting to find out what Grey Power are saying about Winston Peters these days. I honestly don't know, can anybody help here?

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 05:32 PM

The "behind closed doors" Trans-Pacific Partnership.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/trade/news/article.cfm?c_id=96&objectid=11307872

And National isn't damaging the country you say, FP ... Really? When the U.S flexes its muscles any small Govt. listens. Lange folded to little old France in a flash and Rowling couldn't sign the paper he was told to by the FBI fast enough after he said he would not. Labour has sold out many a time and no doubt National has & will do too. Nothing there belg, nada.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 05:38 PM

FP, that is bull. You want to delay the onset of a CGT, not much else matters to you, does it. Which of National's steady-as-she goes, 'let's not do anything but borrow and sell off state assets' "policies" do you like the most? What other legacy will they leave behind to mark their two terms?
EZ, you must be hopping mad at Labour for selling all the asserts they sold too. Don't be a hypocrite and show some honesty here, Labour has been even more guilty than National when it comes to selling off assets.
Come on guys, I've got to say the Blue team is letting themselves down a bit when I'm not on-line. Please don't let cr@p like this get left untouched. That is just basic rubbish we hear from the left, they invented selling off the family jewels FGS.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 05:52 PM

Here's Willie Jackson take on current events. Interesting.

WILLIE JACKSON: DIRTY POLITICS (http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Willie-Jackson-Dirty-Politics/tabid/721/articleID/52263/Default.aspx)

elZorro

15-08-2014, 07:24 PM

Here's Willie Jackson take on current events. Interesting.

WILLIE JACKSON: DIRTY POLITICS (http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Willie-Jackson-Dirty-Politics/tabid/721/articleID/52263/Default.aspx)

Gosh that guy is BRIGHT isn't he?

Willie Jackson: Ironically Mana southern candidate Georgina Beyer wasn’t phased at all..

Does that mean she wasn't plugged into the mains at the time? Or Willie wasn't? Anyway Willie did half suspect that John Key knows all about the information being fed to Whale Oil. Key will have been careful to keep his written distance, but anything verbal will be OK (as long as no-one records it..).

iceman

15-08-2014, 08:53 PM

Here's Willie Jackson take on current events. Interesting.

WILLIE JACKSON: DIRTY POLITICS (http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Willie-Jackson-Dirty-Politics/tabid/721/articleID/52263/Default.aspx)

I think Willie's reaction to it is like a large majority of voters. One big yawn, like everything else that comes from Hager and the far leftwing conspiracy theorists ! The very few that seem upset to see how politics works, on both sides, are Labour or Green voters anyway so this "book" will not have any effect on the election outcome. The poll on Radio Live showed 68% of respondents saying it would have no bearing on how their vote. I doubt very much the 32% that said it would have a bearing, were potential National voters. This shows the left has given up on fighting this election on issues important to Kiwis and, contrary to what Cunliffe said, will fight only by slinging mud. That is all they know how to do.

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 09:06 PM

I think Willie's reaction to it is like a large majority of voters. One big yawn, like everything else that comes from Hager and the far leftwing conspiracy theorists ! The very few that seem upset to see how politics works, on both sides, are Labour or Green voters anyway so this "book" will not have any effect on the election outcome. The poll on Radio Live showed 68% of respondents saying it would have no bearing on how their vote. I doubt very much the 32% that said it would have a bearing, were potential National voters. This shows the left has given up on fighting this election on issues important to Kiwis and, contrary to what Cunliffe said, will fight only by slinging mud. That is all they know how to do.

Nope. Voters will be leaving National in droves. Mr.Cunliffe says so. :t_up:

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 09:08 PM

Below are the words of Cameron Slater. I would say Hager is seeking legal advice as we speak.

These are the three biggest lies of the Hager book.
They cannot go with out calling them out.
The first big lie is that the PM’s department “hacked” the Labour party website (http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2011/06/labour-leaks-how-i-did-it/). This is a lie and one repeated by the NZ Herald and John Armstrong this morning.
Hager’s allegations are many and varied. They are extremely serious. But one stands out. The allegation that one of John Key’s minions hacked into the Labour Party’s database is – to put it bluntly – the modern-day equivalent of the 1972 burglary of the Democratic Party’s national committee headquarters in the Watergate complex in Washington.
And everyone knows whose head rolled at the end of that saga.

This is a lie. The Labour party website is extremely well documented, by me at the time. The website was open to the world and anyone could access it. It was not ever hacked. Furthermore it was not the PM’s department that alerted me to the openness of the Labour party website…I had two sources, neither of which are from the PM’s department.
The second big lie is that PM and/or the PM’s office told me about Phil Goff’s briefing from the SIS. They did not.
I wrote my own OIA and boy did I get pressure to pull my OIA. Pressure came from very senior people to actually withdraw my OIA, very serious pressure…mostly by phone. I was told it wouldn’t do the Nats any favours.
I resisted that and basically told them to piss off, I was entitled to ask an OIA and I did, proving that Phil Goff lied about his briefing.
That is but two lies that Hager and now, flush with cash, media are reporting.
I understand that Matthew Hooton is also considering some action for the baseless lies about him in the book, especially around the sponsorship of a motorhome.
Again Hager’s claims are a fiction.
Hooton had nothing to do with the sponsorship of the motorhome, it was actually arranged and gifted at the time of the Mt Albert by-election by a chap in Taupo who actually owned the motorhome, and ran a motorhome business. Sadly he committed suicide three years ago in a rather dramatic fashion that I blogged about.
That is three lies at least, and that is without even reading the book.

Sgt Pepper

15-08-2014, 09:41 PM

elZorro

15-08-2014, 09:51 PM

Cuzzie, you're spending way too much time on the Whale Oil Blog. It's mostly paid-for blogging there. On this site, no-one gets paid to post rubbish.

Iceman, you obviously haven't read the book, I finished it yesterday, so I'd be one of just 5,000 or so in NZ, if they have all lent the book to someone or got it online..

Nicky rushed that book out, even I could flesh out a few details for him on one area he started talking about, and it would hurt another pro-National TV personality. There are heaps of nasty-looking questions that can be asked by the press now. Most of them will have to be directed at the 9th floor of the Beehive. Like SGT Pepper, I think Judith Collins will have to go. She is so up to her neck in this.

Someone else's quiet little consultancy business that pushes wealthier but poor candidates into safe National seats using the paid bloggers, will also find it tough. These people are stacking the parliament with more pro-liberal candidates, taking National further towards ACT. The sad little National electorate committees haven't got a chance against this onslaught. It's just a few people wielding all this power. It's definitely undemocratic, and it should be illegal.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 10:07 PM

fungus pudding

15-08-2014, 10:22 PM

FP, that is bull. You want to delay the onset of a CGT, not much else matters to you, does it. Which of National's steady-as-she goes, 'let's not do anything but borrow and sell off state assets' "policies" do you like the most? What other legacy will they leave behind to mark their two terms?

Grant Robertson was on Prime TV with Sean Plunket tonight, and from what I could gather it sounds like they have decided CGT will not apply to farmland or 'the productive sector'. So perhaps some businesses are not part of the CGT plan.

Cuzzie

15-08-2014, 10:23 PM

Cuzzie
on a totally differernt topic i am concerned that none of the right of centre posters are responding to any of my witty, well constructed posts. Its not fair. I am feeling incredibly lonely and sorry for myself. Boo Hoo. Right well I am writing this on my coffee break, back to workSorry S.P I have not replied to you for a while. Too busy with my own posts I guess. I looked on this page and the last and saw none to reply to. Never mind, I have here. Hope that cheers you up.

It doesn't matter if you are left of center right of center or bang in the middle, one thing for certain is we are in for one hell of a ride leading up to the election. I don't know where the N.H book will take us for sure, I know what I'd like to see happen - but I can't say for sure. Same with the election, reality is we just don't know for certain. I can say National will romp home all I like and all indications indeed point that way, but I can't say for certain. Things have been a little heated of late so will take this opportunity to wish all well leading up to the big day. I know I have gone too far in some of my posts and that will more than likely be repeated in the very near future. Religion & politics always brings out the passion in us and that means signs of us at our worse. So on that note I will pre-apologise if I pi$$ off anyone too much. Here we go.......

elZorro

15-08-2014, 11:06 PM

Grant Robertson was on Prime TV with Sean Plunket tonight, and from what I could gather it sounds like they have decided CGT will not apply to farmland or 'the productive sector'. So perhaps some businesses are not part of the CGT plan.

I have not heard about that, but maybe you misheard what they were saying, FP.

Labour: The 15 per cent tax on any gains between the tax being implemented and the sale of assets won't apply to the family home. While the tax will apply on the sale of farms, the gains in the value of the vendor's family home on the farm would be excluded.

Some businesses are excluded too, small ones below $30k or so.

elZorro

16-08-2014, 12:00 AM

I just rediscovered a blog site called "The Jackalman". He has some good left-leaning posts, including this hard-hitting but accurate one about Nicky Hager's book.

http://thejackalman.blogspot.co.nz/2014/08/nationals-death-by-association.html

Banksie

16-08-2014, 08:29 AM

Its called balance, Cuzzie.

I read Whale Oil and a few other rabid right wing blogs. Oddly, I stay away from rabid left wing ones as I find them, like the extreme right wing ones, an embarrassment, and I get my fill of that from Whale Oil & Co.

Can I ask you to please stop reading Whale Oil belg. I used to read his blog too, daily, as I like to try and understand everyone's point of view, but no more. I found his tirade against chch particularly offensive and realised that reading his blog gives him oxygen, increases his readership count, and increase his ad revenue. So belg...please stop visiting WO.

fungus pudding

16-08-2014, 08:41 AM

I have not heard about that, but maybe you misheard what they were saying, FP.

Some businesses are excluded too, small ones below $30k or so.

Unfortunately it was on Prime so I can't replay it. He sort of mumbled a quick response when Joyce claimed GST would apply to business investment when Robertson said it was designed to direct investment away from housing to the productive sector where it wouldn't apply - or something like that. I'm aware of the small business exemption. It's always puzzled me why Labour claim it would favour business investment over housing when the same rules were to apply. Maybe they've had a rethink.

slimwin

16-08-2014, 08:44 AM

I have to say, I actually like some of the Labour policies that are coming out. If it wasn't for the probable tie up with internet/mana and greens to a lessor extent, I'd very possibly swing that way. Cunliffe puts me off though, as does "give me my flag back" Norman. Call it personality politics if you will Belg,it counts for most of the population. As does their vote whether you like it or not.

For the Hager book,pffft. I go back to one politician calling the other a liar(dirty) is nothing new. Another six months of politics then revelations would be the other way around. Bar/smoko room polls (i know you love those Belg) would suggest nobody in the middle is finding whats said in this book very exciting. I was overseas for Hagers first book so didn't get the feel for that one,but the general feeling at work now is he's a weasel. Average man, who was worried about the GCSB, can now also be worried that jounalists can steal email and claim the high ground.

Labour/greens would have beenbetter pushing their policies than getting tarred with the "squealy little girls" brush. Maybe proof would change this or maybe it'll just waste electioneering time.

Another "bush" poll. The majority of Tinder alerts I get have "liked" John Key on their facebook pages. Especially the younger women.

elZorro

16-08-2014, 09:42 AM

Unfortunately it was on Prime so I can't replay it. He sort of mumbled a quick response when Joyce claimed GST would apply to business investment when Robertson said it was designed to direct investment away from housing to the productive sector where it wouldn't apply - or something like that. I'm aware of the small business exemption. It's always puzzled me why Labour claim it would favour business investment over housing when the same rules were to apply. Maybe they've had a rethink.

In the current environment, where it cannot be guaranteed that a rental property or building will in fact achieve a net capital gain over a few years, anyone investing or borrowing that sort of money might in turn consider a business instead, especially if they are not super-long-term investors, or if they are looking for more income immediately. Both investment types attract a CGT, but of course a business can have some current assets stripped out of it before selling, and they can be a lot more profitable on an annual basis than property. I'd also guess that instead of selling a business with close to nil stock, it would be cheaper to pay the CGT of 15% on the entire sale. But I haven't looked into that.

fungus pudding

16-08-2014, 10:10 AM

In the current environment, where it cannot be guaranteed that a rental property or building will in fact achieve a net capital gain over a few years, anyone investing or borrowing that sort of money might in turn consider a business instead, especially if they are not super-long-term investors, or if they are looking for more income immediately. Both investment types attract a CGT, but of course a business can have some current assets stripped out of it before selling, and they can be a lot more profitable on an annual basis than property. I'd also guess that instead of selling a business with close to nil stock, it would be cheaper to pay the CGT of 15% on the entire sale. But I haven't looked into that.

Property investors and business operators/owners are two distinctly different animals. Property investors will carry on investing in property. e.g. I could not/would not own a business. Not my thing. Serious investors start somewhere and eventually trade up to better quality or from residential to commercial etc ?That activity will slow as would stepping stone farms etc. I repeat - if not properly designed it becomes very complex. I don't get your point about stock. If included in a business it will be at cost - so no gain.

elZorro

16-08-2014, 10:55 AM

Property investors and business operators/owners are two distinctly different animals. Property investors will carry on investing in property. e.g. I could not/would not own a business. Not my thing. Serious investors start somewhere and eventually trade up to better quality or from residential to commercial etc ?That activity will slow as would stepping stone farms etc. I repeat - if not properly designed it becomes very complex. I don't get your point about stock. If included in a business it will be at cost - so no gain.

It is possible to be a passive investor in a business, or to buy a managed business. I had a great little earner once, that took five minutes a week, but that's rare.

Regarding stock, I mean the normal process for a retailer who is selling out, is to reduce all the stock to minimum with sales. It makes the selling price cheaper and more affordable for the buyer. But they'd have to pay full income tax on that, whereas a capital sale of the whole asset only has 15% tax.

The other point is that businesses generally employ people, and property investors don't (yes, they use contractors sometimes, frugally).

fungus pudding

16-08-2014, 12:05 PM

It is possible to be a passive investor in a business, or to buy a managed business. I had a great little earner once, that took five minutes a week, but that's rare.

Regarding stock, I mean the normal process for a retailer who is selling out, is to reduce all the stock to minimum with sales. It makes the selling price cheaper and more affordable for the buyer. But they'd have to pay full income tax on that, whereas a capital sale of the whole asset only has 15% tax.

The other point is that businesses generally employ people, and property investors don't (yes, they use contractors sometimes, frugally).

Any business sold will be categorised as you well know into stock, plant and goodwill. CGT will not apply to stock. Reducing stock for a sale of the business or any other reason reduces taxable profit. CGT will not come into stock.
Please yourself about businesses. Investors that I know (and there are plenty in my home town with well over 20,000 students from other towns and cities) have no interest whatsoever in owning businesses. The odd one has strayed into motels, but they soon learn and get out again. It's just silly to pretend they want to buy a business instead of investing. It's also silly when Parker says that's what will happen when the tax treatment he talks about does not favour one over the other. I like Robertson's version better. Cunliffe probably has a third version.

elZorro

16-08-2014, 12:30 PM

Golly. Has John Armstrong had a brain transplant? ... His past pieces established him as being a National sycophant but now he seems to actually asking the right questions.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11309684

Have a read of the comments ... Many "ordinary people"? are clearly quite angry and want answers. So it seems I'm not alone in my outrage.

edited: One notes that now #TeamKey has taken the "nothing to see here, folks" approach, anyone from the right that starts legal processes to halt any further revelations is going to make it look like #TeamKey is wrong and there is indeed something (or a lot) to hide.

And perhaps worse, if Key is indeed telling the truth and is indeed "out of the sleaze loop" while those around him in #TeamKey has been up to no good then he's not much of leader, more like a figurehead.

You're right, Belgarion. This is much more like proper reporting. Finally, the wordsmiths are giving us some home truths.

John Armstrong:
National's tactic has been to keep the focus on Hager and persuade people he had hidden motives for writing the book - rather than being drawn into arguments about its damning contents.

This has worked for National to some degree - somewhat to Hager's frustration.

Key's damage control operation was designed to both defuse and confuse. However, the Prime Minister looked and sounded distinctly uncomfortable when questioned by reporters on Thursday afternoon.

He conceded nothing. He repeatedly answered questions by saying the book's allegations had "nothing to do with National".
When it was pointed out to him that National was clearly implicated, he made excuses, saying he had not been briefed on the detail.

If Key's answers sounded glib there was good reason. The vilification of Hager by Key and Steven Joyce, National's election campaign supremo and the one designated to front for National when there is trouble, is a charade.

Their dilemma is that they have to rubbish the book as being wrong on every score when they know much if not all of it, is accurate, simply because the contents come straight out of the mouths of Slater, Ede and other National Party figures and associates.

As much as anything, Hager has simply done a compilation job. Key's and Joyce's deny-everything stances are not tenable for long. But if they admit Hager is right about one thing, then they have to concede he is right about everything.

There are five more weeks to the main voting day (20th Sept). Time enough to swing a few voters, surely.

Cuzzie

16-08-2014, 12:32 PM

The loonie left fanboys are on fire this morning - whooha look at them go. I guess they did not like the last poll driving Labour towards the minus 20% club and National up to an almost untouchable place where only the well supported popular parties can go. I don't have to reply to any posts so far today, I'll just feel their pain and smile.

:)BTW, it's another beautiful day today - is it not!!!:)

Sgt Pepper

16-08-2014, 12:37 PM

Sgt, if you ask them any pointed question that they'd have to respond with anything that doesn't show their glorious #TeamKey as radiating wisdom, statesmanship and benevolence, you'll get no response, or meaningless drivel.

Geez, I'm still waiting for these National supporters to front up and tell us all how National intends to deal with the massive funding hole we have with maintaining an unchanged NZ Super ... and as yet nada.

Belg
Don't hold your breath. JK has been in a deliberate state of denial for years, no doubt prompted by Crosby Textors complex economic analysis-not.

elZorro

16-08-2014, 12:44 PM

From John Armstrong's story, this image is nearly as good an idea as yours (bedtime stories at the beehive), Sgt Pepper.

If someone did pen your cartoon, what would the byline be? I'm hopeless at that sort of thing, but you are a bit of a wordsmith yourself. Cheers.

Cuzzie

16-08-2014, 01:39 PM

Indeed it is. Emperor Key has no clothes and is singing the song of denial while the National party burns. Indeed it is.

But quite frankly. I am appalled by this behaviour, irrespective of whether it comes from the left, right or centre. I want to see inquiries and action. And harsh punishment of those who have committed crimes and/or abused their positions. And I want to know that this bollocks won't distract from the real issues facing NZ ever again. I am quite disgusted with the lot of them!

WILL DAVID CUNLIFFE STAND DOWN PHIL GOFF FOR MEDDLING IN AN ACTIVE POLICE INVESTIGATION

The Labour party called on John Key to sack Maurice Williamson & he resigned as a result of asking about an active Police investigation on behalf of a constituent. Now Phil Goff, a former Justice Minister, has injected himself into an active police investigation & one somewhat more serious than beating your mistress up - this one involved murder.:ohmy:

Link NZ Herald. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11309667)

elZorro

16-08-2014, 01:46 PM

Nice try Cuzzie, but that is a small amount of non-combustible material there, no smoke or fire.

Police Association president Greg O'Connor said it appeared Mr Goff had acted in a way "most New Zealanders would find reasonable".

Now the public hound dogs are baying after Cameron Slater.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11309903

Hager told The Nation the outing of Mr Pleasants' name was what had most offended him.
"I believe, and she hasn't denied this, that as Minister of Police she leaked the name of someone she thought could be blamed and watched him being persecuted in public without a chance to defend himself."

Labour MP Grant Robertson said Ms Collins' admission that she had given Mr Pleasants' name to Slater was more than enough reason for Prime Minister John Key to sack her as a Minister.

"Despite claiming that the evidence about her in Nicky Hager's book was 'false' Judith Collins has now been forced to admit that she did send information about a Ministerial Services staff member to Cameron Slater for him to use in a baseless smear campaign," he said.

Yes, that is truly nasty behaviour from a politician. She'd have known how that information was to be used.

elZorro

16-08-2014, 03:34 PM

It's very lucky for National that I'm useless at graphic arts, along with many other technical skills that I'll get in when required.
Here's my attempt at a new billboard for National.

elZorro

16-08-2014, 05:54 PM

Several points about this photo.
-It's a black tie event but Cameron Slater turns up in a cheap T-shirt with his own advertising on it.
-Like no-one knows who he is, so he'll need to make sure they do.
-When a photo-op come along, he gets free advertising for his blog.
-He needs a special pass, probably just part of the crew or "media" on the night.
-John and Cameron seem to be awfully close - I've seen photos taken with National MPs where John doesn't look that happy.

Cuzzie

16-08-2014, 06:08 PM

Like photos guys? Maybe videos too - maybe? Maybe you won't enjoy this video as much as I did. In fact I know you won't enjoy this video one little bit.

STUPID LABOUR I.T GUYS. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnOAeVaU5xM) Infact they are D.Fs and now they complain.

So if the Labour computers were not hacked, how is Hager placed. Behind bars in short time me thinks.

elZorro

16-08-2014, 06:43 PM

Cuzzie

16-08-2014, 06:45 PM

You only need one picture ... This is it and it needs no caption.

http://cdn.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/image.jpg?8c6885That's a fine photo, maybe you can post one of Darren Hughes and Nicky Hager!:cool:

Cuzzie

16-08-2014, 06:51 PM

Cuzzie, I agree with you on that, the Labour IT guys were lax with that secretive data. It wasn't super secret, but bad enough. I noticed he had to know his way around a computer quite well though. It looks like they wanted to make sure that any email lists were updated on all servers at once. I have heard that during election years, the offices are very busy and not many staff are available at the best of times. But they should have paid for good IT support. I'm sure it's there now.

Here's another photo of the three musketeers. Again, WO gets a free plug, and John Key looks very comfortable in such esteemed company. At least we now both agree there was no hacking on the National side. Hager is altogether different and to think he's written a book on hacked emails which is no proof of anything but just chin wagging. I'm afraid Hager is going to take a big hit paying for legal fees and prison time for this. Never mind, at least its sured up the National vote. Maybe Hager is working for Key!!! Well he is whether he knows it or not. EZ, one thing is for sure, your Hager book could be worth gold if it is banned.

elZorro

16-08-2014, 07:10 PM

OK, I understand, they effectively did pay for ICT services, and it was of poor quality. If National knew about this as you say, and then passed that fact onto bloggers while making sure their own systems were secure, they deserve to go down.

Nicky Hager's first edition of Dirty Politics may well be a collector's item in a few years. It might be the book that removed a government from a near certain third term. See this one, already up to $250, but it's a special case.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/books/nonfiction/politics-social-commentary/auction-767241084.htm

Cuzzie

16-08-2014, 07:15 PM

elZorro

16-08-2014, 08:01 PM

Hager is the criminal and Slater is above board, yet we see this bad behaviour. And now we see the true colours of the Loonie Left. Death threats FGS. The useless left go around defacing National Billboards and even our own EZ posts links to it. They throw food and mud at Right wing politicians, they hack in the Right Wing bloggers computers - belg, they write propaganda B.S songs against Key and complain when the long arm of the law tells them they are breaking the law & now death threats. Is there any wonder why we don't vote for these criminals?

88 out or every 100 voters don't want Cunliffe as our P.M. I'd suggest that is about the same amount of NZ voters that have not got a criminal record.

Keep up the negative campaign Labour as it is absolutely positive for National. I think Key should charge Labour voters more tax each week to actually give them something real to complain against.

Here's the Link (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11309903)

Cuzzie, it might look like a concerted effort from the left at the moment, but I suspect it's not Labour that is doing much of it. A private blues musician in Wanganui wrote that Planet Key song, someone in Auckland did the video to match it, in both cases because they were good at these areas, had the gear, did it for free, and had existing political leanings perhaps. No effort was made to halt the song/video until the Hager book came out.

The billboard mods, yes, some of them are too extreme, others are very clever. Labour loses some of theirs too. Lots of those remake images are from 2011 billboards, past tense. The rule with our signs, for example, is that very clever or minor graffiti can stay up for a day or two, but bad defacing has to come down immediately.

As far as the left are concerned, Kiwiblog and Whale Oil have been far too organised and on the money with their tips and jibes for several years. It's no wonder there is going to be a public backlash from anyone who normally votes Labour. They're not all polite.

Cameron Slater wasn't, was he.

Winston Peters on TV tonight: great with the sound bite as usual. He made the point that

Nicky Hager didn't write that book, the National Party (and their bloggers) did.

That's true, Hager only added comments sparingly.

elZorro

16-08-2014, 08:27 PM

The Dim Post (great name) blog has a summary of Nicky Hager's book (Dirty Politics).

http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/dirty-politics-summary/

Add all this up, it's not a very good picture at all.

slimwin

17-08-2014, 09:20 AM

If Key has lost it, Cunliffe never had it.

slimwin

17-08-2014, 09:37 AM

Last paragraph of this article makes a good point.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11309981

Cuzzie

17-08-2014, 09:48 AM

What this video shows is how incompetent government departments are when it comes to securing ICT assets. Not Labour as you assert. Labour were using ICT services from a government department supplied set of servers.

See how easily you are fooled Cuzzie. You sucked up the sleaze without any knowledge of how ICT work. Not Labour. Silly government. Or did someone in government ensure the front door was left open? Damn! This is looking like Watergate more and more.

It also shows that a theft could be achieved relatively easily.

And ... here's the rub ... Cameron Slater's emails show that he did steal information.

Further, the emails show that Slater (who isn't that flash with technology as this video shows but he likes to think he's a guru) was assisted in his theft by a person in John Key's sphere and is no employed directly by the National party. So did government ensure the front door was left open so Slater could walk through?

Further, did Slater ensure all those credit cards he shows in the video were cancelled before he posted this? Do you know, Cuzzie? If he didn't then this alone is evidence of a crime.

Which makes me begin to wonder ... Why exactly wasn't this guy charged? What's he got on the government?No wrong, completely wrong and you're in I.T! Based on your argument, you just stole info from me by doing a quote from something I said in the open here on S.T. The Labour website was left open and an open website is not illegal to view or quote from. Hager's involvement in hacking another person's computer is completely illegal as we will see shortly. Maybe Slater should go to somebody that champions privacy and spying - that could be - well that is Nicky Hager himself. Nicky Hager is now the biggest ever hypocrite the planet has ever seen and should now be known as the Hager syndrome. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrite) BTW belg, if there is anything else you need to know for your I.T company, just give me a yell, glad to help.

elZorro

17-08-2014, 11:15 AM

Bitterly disappointed today- the SST has not done much with the Hager book at all. Sort of skirted around it. I thought that by now they'd have read it through, summarised it, done some background checks for veracity. Instead, I didn't learn anything new.

Ali Ikram had a very interesting commentary though - see "Jarring Note from Jaffa" on page A15.

..(National runs interference).. The desired message was the world is full of wackos, so"vote Key"!

This is the reason Dirty Politics may not jump the gap and erode support for the Nats. Deep down, conservatives don't vote for politicians because they are nice, or terribly pure. They don't secretly believe that Judith Collins is at this moment baking for the destitute.

Instead, for them, their way of life is precious, but also precarious. An election, then, equates to the choice of the best guard dog.

For some reason I thought of you, FP, when I read that.

Another article which did give me a bit of hope for the future was Rod Oram's "Growth Quandary" on the last page of the business section. Rod is not timid on the future prospects of NZ, he is ambitious and positive.

If this is what we want, (basic commodities and natural resources marketing), National is offering a perfect set of conservative policies to keep delivering it: 1980s monetary policy that controls inflation but to the detriment of the dollar and interest rates and thus export competitiveness; a superannuation time bomb; and tax policy that skews investment to property and away from production.

Moreover, National offers R&D grants to a few companies at the expense of wider innovation; incentives for more natural resource depletion and commodity production; and declining investment in science in real terms, as shown in the government's draft 10-year science funding strategy.

Or, if we want a sophisticated, wealthy economy, Labour and greens are offering progressive policies to trigger the shift: a modern monetary policy that targets inflation and our external competitiveness; and compulsory superannuation that deepens our capital base and adds another tool to monetary policy to help take pressure off interest rates and the dollar.

Moreover, they also offer a capital gains tax to help level the investment playing field; and science, education, skills, investment , R&D policies that help companies develop high value products and invest in new areas such as clean technology.

This is our starkest choice in economic policy in decades.

elZorro

17-08-2014, 11:23 AM

It's not ok. And it's way worse in Canada. And it makes me sad it's happening in NZ now too. Thought I was in a country where people knew a bit better. And you guys are a consequence of these actions as you are sounding like the raving loonies over there as well.

There's a million more things important in life than being a keyboard warrior for politicianswe all hate anyways. But my words won't do anything anyways, as going on like this is like an addiction once you've started.

I dare you to add up the hours you spend on here defending the indefensible. Then think about how much good that would do for a charity if you committed to them.

*shakes head and leaves room*

Moosie, you'd better think a bit harder about politics. Don't you realise that if Labour get in, all the lower paid workers in NZ will get an instant pay increase, and that will be paid for by employers. It's starting to redress the inequality in NZ straight away. If the Greens come in with Labour, they'll make sure the rental house WOF gets off the ground, and probably a lot more houses will be upgraded and insulated. The KiwiBuild programme will train and soak up a lot of currently unemployed people, the retail/trade sector will be boosted by it, and people in Auckland and Christchurch in particular, might have a better chance of owning a house.

I'll continue to spend as much time as I can to try and get a Labour coalition across the line on Sept 20th. It's the most charitable thing I can do.

Was Jason Ede (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9510189/Senior-Key-staffers-rubbish-pic-duty)the guy who first spotted the vulnerabilities in Labour's servers?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11310131

fungus pudding

17-08-2014, 11:54 AM

Another article which did give me a bit of hope for the future was Rod Oram's "Growth Quandary" on the last page of the business section. Rod is not timid on the future prospects of NZ, he is ambitious and positive.

Rod Oram is the most depressing and depressed, severely pessimistic person I have ever encountered.
I've been to the odd thing where he has been a speaker. After 10 minutes of his droning on in a monotonous monologue about all the bad things which of course are the govt's fault, I'm looking for the staircase to the roof if it's a high enough building to jump off - or if not a bit of cord and a balcony. Even reading his opinions shows his permanently negative attitude coming through. Very bad for your mental health, is Rod.

winner69

17-08-2014, 12:21 PM

Moosie, you'd better think a bit harder about politics. Don't you realise that if Labour get in, all the lower paid workers in NZ will get an instant pay increase, and that will be paid for by employers. It's starting to redress the inequality in NZ straight away. If the Greens come in with Labour, they'll make sure the rental house WOF gets off the ground, and probably a lot more houses will be upgraded and insulated. The KiwiBuild programme will train and soak up a lot of currently unemployed people, the retail/trade sector will be boosted by it, and people in Auckland and Christchurch in particular, might have a better chance of owning a house.

I'll continue to spend as much time as I can to try and get a Labour coalition across the line on Sept 20th. It's the most charitable thing I can do.

Was Jason Ede (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9510189/Senior-Key-staffers-rubbish-pic-duty)the guy who first spotted the vulnerabilities in Labour's servers?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11310131

Not just the low paid getting a pay rise .....those already on the new touted rates will get caries as well to maintain relativity .....antigen those on 25 bucks an hour and then those on 30 bucks and son on

fungus pudding

17-08-2014, 12:57 PM

Not just the low paid getting a pay rise .....those already on the new touted rates will get caries as well to maintain relativity .....antigen those on 25 bucks an hour and then those on 30 bucks and son on

Exactly, and it will kick off a round of inflation reminiscent of the late 60s and 70s. Mind you, that was a lot of fun for those who know how to use inflation, even though it flattened those at the bottom of the heap (not just the ones who made a career out of striking) Nothing wrong with people earning more - everything wrong with people being paid more just because the govt. says so.

fungus pudding

17-08-2014, 12:58 PM

elZorro

17-08-2014, 12:58 PM

Rod Oram is the most depressing and depressed, severely pessimistic person I have ever encountered.
I've been to the odd thing where he has been a speaker. After 10 minutes of his droning on in a monotonous monologue about all the bad things which of course are the govt's fault, I'm looking for the staircase to the roof if it's a high enough building to jump off - or if not a bit of cord and a balcony. Even reading his opinions shows his permanently negative attitude coming through. Very bad for your mental health, is Rod.

Yes, yes, so you've said before, FP. But his writing, the content, do you agree or not? Is there a chance that National's policies haven't been the best for the country at large? How about a bit of honesty.

elZorro

17-08-2014, 03:10 PM

I've not seen this effect documented. Got a link?

I'll have a look for you Belgarion, on the website:

www.rightwingbullshightposts.com (http://www.rightwingbullshightposts.com)

blackcap

17-08-2014, 03:12 PM

Not just the low paid getting a pay rise .....those already on the new touted rates will get caries as well to maintain relativity .....antigen those on 25 bucks an hour and then those on 30 bucks and son on

And prices will rise to reflect extra costs and no one will be better off except the people holding capital assets whose value will rise due to the inflationary effect.

fungus pudding

17-08-2014, 03:28 PM

And prices will rise to reflect extra costs and no one will be better off except the people holding capital assets whose value will rise due to the inflationary effect.

.....and more-so to property investors and the like as their mortgages decrease in real terms, which just goes to show Allah is in his heaven after all. So if Labour pull it of buy buy buy .....

winner69

17-08-2014, 03:31 PM

I'll have a look for you Belgarion, on the website:

www.rightwingbullshightposts.com (http://www.rightwingbullshightposts.com)

That's odd

The link redirected me to

http://campaign.labour.org.nz/living_wage_not_such_a_bright_idea

Pixelator

17-08-2014, 03:37 PM

[QUOTE=belgarion;498607]I've not seen this effect documented. Got a link?

http://www.dol.govt.nz/publications/research/employers-perspectives-part2-minimum-wage/

westerly

17-08-2014, 03:55 PM

It has been an interesting few days since Hager's book release. Most noticeable has been the rights focus on attack. Don't worry about denial, just stir up as much anti labour /green stuff as you can. Call them names, say they do it too, threaten all sorts of dire consequences, anything to divert attention away from the “ book ” Sort of what it appears the shadowy right background lads have been doing for sometime. The Whale oil apprentice contributor on this site is certainly doing his bit.
How it all turns out will be interesting but it may well result in a decision to ease up on the mud
slinging and result in a more policy focused campaign. If not the election could easily be Nationals to lose

westerly

elZorro

17-08-2014, 03:57 PM

That's odd

The link redirected me to

http://campaign.labour.org.nz/living_wage_not_such_a_bright_idea

Ha Ha, good one, that required some work W69.

Cuzzie

17-08-2014, 04:32 PM

As soon as databases were found containing credit card information it should have been clear to even non I.T. people that the web site was not secured correctly. No reasonable person would conclude that this was normal. At that point the correct thing to have done would have been to contact the site owners and let them know. I have done this many time.

The defense you are suggesting is akin to finding a wallet with ID, a credit card and money in and because it was left lying in the street its fine for you to take it, spend the money, use the credit card and ignore the fact the ID could have been used to find the owner with ease.It is not illegal to look at ones website if they leave it open. Access to hidden pages are not illegal either. If you don't want people to read something on your website, make it secure. belg, it might surprise you to know that I build websites, whoops you already know that because you hacked me. So you & I both know Slater has done no wrong. Beat it up all you like, Labour stuffed up and you know it.
However, this is entirely a different picture altogether - MP burgled and hacked (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11310030)

This is my electorate as you know belg, because you have all my personal details & this is what I call lowlife stealing in the first degree. I wonder what flavour left of center mongrel did this. Spot the difference belg. This is the closest you will get to raw dirty politics and was done by somebody on the loonie left.

Cuzzie

17-08-2014, 07:36 PM

Oh dear Cuzzie ... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11310192

But don't worry Cuz, National's campaign will begin soon and they'll throwing lollies for Africa. Mainly at the young & unemployed and working poor I suspect.

Oldies like FP, slimwin and blackcap will be missing out this time as they'd continue to vote National even if Key turned out to be gay or had been found to had an affair with Crusher or had been cheating on his tax returns for years. ;)Oh no 71 people in 100 won't be voting for Labour - oh what will I do -Top myself? Fair dues belg, that is some kind of victory you're claiming there. No jokes, what the hell were those 29 in 100 thinking if they were considering Labour as the answer? NZ is cursed with criminals & mental health right now, I say take away their vote. I wonder how many would be left?:):D:):cool:

slimwin

17-08-2014, 07:59 PM

People often wonder why Oz does better than us ...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Hourly_Minimum_Wages_in_Developed_Economies%2C_201 1.jpg/330px-Hourly_Minimum_Wages_in_Developed_Economies%2C_201 1.jpg

Funny that their minimum wage is so much higher than ours ... FP, blackcap and slimwin must be right then. LOL

Our company in ChCh relies on working on Aussie aircraft to keep going. The Aussie aircraft are only here because of a lower wage rate. If the guys just below me get average rise our shortsighted union will demand a pay increase. Then I'm unemployed. And yes, I've seen this in Europe when I worked there. Everybody I know is happy with their wage but will demand more if the untrained bloke gets close.

And Belg, why on earth would I not vote for JK if he came out? Do I come across as a relgious bigot?

Cuzzie

17-08-2014, 08:03 PM

:cool:
I remind everyone Cuzzie's interpretation of the law is wrong. Follow Cuzzies interpretation at your peril.
I have absolutely no problem going head to head with belg on this matter.
Only intended the rest of this post to be visible, until read by belg. Now I've deleted the rest satisfied he now understands.

Cuzzie

17-08-2014, 08:45 PM

Red Vs Blue - Left VS Right - Negative Vs Positive - Wrong Vs Right - Losers Vs Winners -Whingers Vs Doers - Special Needs Vs Normal - Criminals Vs Taxpayers Dole Bludgers Vs Taxpayers Renters Vs Home owners - Anyway you look at it, this is what bums on parliamentary seats look like with the latest Colmar Brunton Poll/

COLMAR BRUNTON (http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/one-new-colmar-brunton/)

elZorro

17-08-2014, 10:20 PM

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 06:10 AM

Is that what you've become, Cuzzie? A nasty sleazebag's mouthpiece? Is your only source of information his web site? Very soon you'll be one of its only visitors.

Slater is damaged goods. Gone. No one will touch him for a very long time. He's trying to make himself the story. But only trolls like you are falling for it.

The real story is that National used this piece of filth to attack anyone they didn't like.Slater is keep very busy reporting on the dirty tactics done by the loonie left. I can understand that you do not want me to repeat just how low the left will go. Slater is damaged, damaged by illegal hacking and there is plenty more to come out about who, how and why.
But hey you & EZ keep blowing little Nicky's trumpet, after all in your mind - there's nothing wrong with him or what he gets up to. Either way you look at it, that is very hypocritical by you both right there.

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 06:14 AM

In the NBR (this must have hurt) Phil Goff says that John Key must be lying about an SIS OIA approval.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/lisa-owen-interviews-nicky-hager-phil-goff-and-metiria-turei-ck-160952At best based on heresay from personal emails that was chitchat illgally obtainned by Hager. Has Hager spoken to anybody at all involved in this? Nope, he's based it on personal emails that are opinion based, PERSONAL POINT OF VIEWS that he had no right to read as pointed out by belg. That's that then, next one please EZ.

boysy

18-08-2014, 07:22 AM

No one but nutty nats actually think slater is the victim here do they ?

Sgt Pepper

18-08-2014, 08:03 AM

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 08:23 AM

No one but nutty nats actually think slater is the victim here do they ?Based on where the Loonie left have now gone, I find this post both humorous & offensive.

craic

18-08-2014, 08:30 AM

I temporarily suspend my self-imposed exile from this topic to reiterate that there is a wager of $1,000 (at least one more) on the table for Sgt Pepper or anyone else on the left who imagines that John Key's lack of intelligence is anything more than wishful thinking on their part and so are prepared to wager on a Labour led parliment in NZ after the next election
Just listened to John Key being interviewed on morning report. Basically he REFUSED TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS, refused to condemn Judith Collins, everything was a left wing conspiracy, and every second sentence was prefaced by " at the end of the day". He sounded like Richard Nixon on prozac
Oh my goodness, this is the person leading our country, at least Richard Nixon had a high IQ.

Banksie

18-08-2014, 08:36 AM

Sgt Pepper

18-08-2014, 08:57 AM

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 09:04 AM

Just listened to John Key being interviewed on morning report.

Basically he REFUSED TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS, refused to condemn Judith Collins, everything was a left wing conspiracy, and every second sentence was prefaced by " at the end of the day". He sounded like Richard Nixon on prozac
Oh my goodness, this is the person leading our country, at least Richard Nixon had a high IQ.
You know, the left supporters are well known for throwing mud and food at Right wing politicians, I think you will find that in the not too distant future we are going to see egg on all the Loonie Left fanboys including our very own crop of them on Sharetrader.
Interesting to find out that Mat McCaretn, yes the very puppetmaster of David Cunliffe himself is best friends with Kim Dot Com. Also interesting to note that Clare Curran, Russel Norman, Winston Peters, Laila Harre, Martyn Bradbury, Alistair Thompson & Nicky Hager are all regular visitors to Dots mansion. However the most interesting news to come out of late is the contact that has informed Cameron Slater who had hacked him. It's Dot Com very own personal protection manager, "Wayne Tempero", who spilled the beans on his old boss Kim Dot Com that fats was behind the hacking and also the hacking and robbery of other people associated with the opposition to Kim Dotcom. Wayne Tempero has proof in the form of text messages that have been past on & verified.Those other victims were/
~David Farrar who had his intellectual property stolen.
~Mark Mitchell who had his personal emails hacked and his office broken into.
~Tony Lentino, the businessman who formerly financially supported Kim Dotcom also had his office broken into.
~ An other employee who works for Whale Oil was also hacked along with another media person who has been a vocal critic of Kim Dotcom.

Mark Mitchell is a former policeman who still has contacts in the force. Do you think they will be working hard to solve this one. Food for thought for you right there.

Geez I'm glad I support the right side, how low can the left go!!!!!

So there you go S.P David Cunliffe makes Richard Nixon look like a choirboy and is now firmly established as being the equal in terms of being morally wrong as Helen Clark & all without even being a P.M. How the hell can anybody even contemplate David Cuncliff being our next P.M is totally beyond me and the fact that 90.5 people in 100 don't want him as P.M tells me 9.5% of the voting public are easily hoodwinked. Cuncliff will try to distance himself when Dot Coms master plan fails, you wait and see. Just remember Cuncliff has well and truly backed this dirty politics plan and he too will fall. The orginal plan was to be 10 days out from the election, I think if the Left had kept it at ten days we might of seen a change in power. Now there is time to unwind Dot Coms master plan to get National kicked out of Govt. all we will see is the truth in black and white weeks before the election and when that happens, will Labour even come second?

Well it is yet another beautiful day out there is it not!!! I'm loving it.

Sgt Pepper

18-08-2014, 09:22 AM

Asked if he [John Key] respected Slater's work, Mr Key told RNZ: "That's not for me to critique his stuff."

He certainly felt it was his place to critique Hager's "stuff". Seems strange that John Key will not distance himself from Slater. Is it because he feels his supporters support Slater, or is it because Slater has something on him?
.
I know what you mean. The reluctance of John Key to criticise Judith Collins is really strange, at odds with any conventional political reality. Almost unexplicable.

Sgt Pepper

18-08-2014, 09:26 AM

You know, the left supporters are well known for throwing mud and food at Right wing politicians, I think you will find that in the not too distant future we are going to see egg on all the Loonie Left fanboys including our very own crop of them on Sharetrader.
Interesting to find out that Mat McCaretn, yes the very puppetmaster of David Cunliffe himself is best friends with Kim Dot Com. Also interesting to note that Clare Curran, Russel Norman, Winston Peters, Laila Harre, Martyn Bradbury, Alistair Thompson & Nicky Hager are all regular visitors to Dots mansion. However the most interesting news to come out of late is the contact that has informed Cameron Slater who had hacked him. It's Dot Com very own personal protection manager, "Wayne Tempero", who spilled the beans on his old boss Kim Dot Com that fats was behind the hacking and also the hacking and robbery of other people associated with the opposition to Kim Dotcom. Wayne Tempero has proof in the form of text messages that have been past on & verified.Those other victims were/
~David Farrar who had his intellectual property stolen.
~Mark Mitchell who had his personal emails hacked and his office broken into.
~Tony Lentino, the businessman who formerly financially supported Kim Dotcom also had his office broken into.
~ An other employee who works for Whale Oil was also hacked along with another media person who has been a vocal critic of Kim Dotcom.

Mark Mitchell is a former policeman who still has contacts in the force. Do you think they will be working hard to solve this one. Food for thought for you right there.

Geez I'm glad I support the right side, how low can the left go!!!!!

So there you go S.P David Cunliffe makes Richard Nixon look like a choirboy and is now firmly established as being the equal in terms of being morally wrong as Helen Clark & all without even being a P.M. How the hell can anybody even contemplate David Cuncliff being our next P.M is totally beyond me and the fact that 90.5 people in 100 don't want him as P.M tells me 9.5% of the voting public are easily hoodwinked. Cuncliff will try to distance himself when Dot Coms master plan fails, you wait and see. Just remember Cuncliff has well and truly backed this dirty politics plan and he too will fall. The orginal plan was to be 10 days out from the election, I think if the Left had kept it at ten days we might of seen a change in power. Now there is time to unwind Dot Coms master plan to get National kicked out of Govt. all we will see is the truth in black and white weeks before the election and when that happens, will Labour even come second?

Well it is yet another beautiful day out there is it not!!! I'm loving it.

Cuzzie

If you were in John Keys shoes wouldn't you dump her as a liability, isn't that the logical thing to do?

Sgt Pepper

18-08-2014, 09:36 AM

The transcript from The Nation in the link has more ...

Owen: With the time we’ve got left I want to talk about Simon Pleasants, who was an employee who was outed in a very public way. Metiria Turei, Judith Collins has confirmed that she released that name. She says it was publicly available. What is wrong with that?

Turei: She got access to that information as a minister and as a Member of Parliament. She passed it on in order to fuel a smear campaign that led to death threats to a public servant. That is appalling behaviour by a minister of the Crown. She should be sacked for that, frankly, and she would have in any other circumstances, except that John Key is backing her. That is never acceptable for a minister to behave like that, not ever.

Turei is completely correct. Collins should go. And, at a minimum, Key should make a very humble apology for being duped by his Minister over whom he should have had far better control.

And Owen, the interviewer goes on and I've edited the text slightly so that the question is put to the public at large.

Owen: [voting public], the prime minister says he’s not gonna look at these claims against Judith Collins because he’s asked her and she said, ‘It’s all OK.’ What do you think of that, now that [your] minister has admitted passing the name on?

What do Sharetrader's think of that?

Belg

What I think is that we have arrived in politically uncharted waters, with a Prime Minister who is displaying deeply flawed traits. It is extremely concerning that someone who should be setting the moral tone and leading by example has descended into a swamp of duplicity and double speak.

ari

18-08-2014, 09:37 AM

Labour web site access......interesting vid
http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/labour-convince-compliant-media-dead-2011-issue-current/

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 12:00 PM

Cuzzie

If you were in John Keys shoes wouldn't you dump her as a liability, isn't that the logical thing to do?
S.P, the problem is all info about her is stolen hearsay which at best is opinionated by those sending emails to each other. The other problem is Slater has stated that some of those emails are not original, meaning they have been added to or info taken away. So no, the logical thing to do is prosecute Nicky Hager and go after Kim Dot Com.

ari

18-08-2014, 12:03 PM

And KD says he is not connected in any way.......
Ex Whaleoil....The hacker has set up a twitter account and will announce dumps of my private emails and communications as published on… (have a guess…) mega.co.nz.

This was always going to happen.

My guess is hacker wants the attention. The credit and limelight but will be careful not to reveal their identity/employer.
They’re just having “fun” now – maximum damage – F the consequences.
Aligning themselves with Anonymous, Wikileaks and Mega is awfully convenient too.
This is going to get tense. People with much more to lose than I do will now fall in behind me and others who don’t break the law to hunt down everyone involved with this.

Poor Nicky Hager. He’s really been minced here.

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 12:41 PM

Hacker comes forward: I'll publish more material on Twitter (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11310429)
Poor old Hager thought he was a serious author. He has been used and abused by the Fatman. This is dot going out in a blaze of glory (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfmYCM4CS8o) in his own mind that is.

Banksie

18-08-2014, 12:52 PM

"people with much more to lose than" you do? ... Ooh. Do share. ;)

I think ari is quoting WO. I just read the same wording on Stuff.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10395382/Hacked-emails-to-be-released

Ari, I went through this with cuzzie; you need to take more care in how you quote and attribute other peoples articles, otherwise your posts become incoherent.

Banksie

18-08-2014, 12:54 PM

LOL ... I suspect the hacker thought Hager was far, far too tame and Hager pulled too many punches.

My guess is the hacker wants you all to see exactly who our politicians really are by showing them in their expletive ridden, unethical, unprincipled, amoral glory. I can't wait. ;)

I certainly have my popcorn warming in the microwave :t_up:.

ari

18-08-2014, 01:55 PM

I think ari is quoting WO. I just read the same wording on Stuff.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10395382/Hacked-emails-to-be-released

Ari, I went through this with cuzzie; you need to take more care in how you quote and attribute other peoples articles, otherwise your posts become incoherent.
Is 'Ex Whaleoil'.......
not sufficient for You?

Banksie

18-08-2014, 02:07 PM

Is 'Ex Whaleoil'.......
not sufficient for You?

I'm no grammar nazi, but it appeared to me that belg misunderstood you, as I did the first time I read it. Now if two people reach the same, erroneous, conclusion then just maybe it wasn't presented as clearly as it could have been.

Sgt Pepper

18-08-2014, 02:16 PM

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 02:43 PM

LOL ... I suspect the hacker thought Hager was far, far too tame and Hager pulled too many punches.

My guess is the hacker wants you all to see exactly who our politicians really are by showing them in their expletive ridden, unethical, unprincipled, amoral glory. I can't wait. ;)
But belg, in your own words you have said the hacker is a criminal, now you blow him up to be a folk hero. Can anybody see the hypocrisy in belg? It is clear to see.

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 02:59 PM

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 03:37 PM

Keep praying Cuz. Only your god can help you now. ;)
OMG, do you always say the opposite to the known facts. S.P, belg reckons your I Predict link is cr@p. You can't have it both ways man.

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 03:41 PM

You mean like Robin Hood? ;)No, I mean like a loonie left criminal who is hell bent in destroying National, but in his failure will implode Left Wing parties for at least 5 to 10 years. Maybe he is Robin Hood - for National.:D

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 03:42 PM

LOL ... One notes the abject silence of the Sharetrader National Support's club. ... Note doubt we'll see them doing the right thing and declaring they had "no idea" and National must be removed. I hope they choose to vote for the Greens or NZ First as only these parties, thus far, have been adamant in their demands for honest politics.

Time for a changeYou are so deluded!!!

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 03:48 PM

This afternoon the @WhaleDump Twitter account linked to a zipfile on the Mega.co.nz - Fatmans Mega website which contained 12 files that appear to be screengrabs of emails sent to and from Slater's gmail account. How close does one have to go to let everybody know that you (Dot Com) is the hacker. He is skating on thin ice and a little rumbling suggests there could be an arrest very soon.:cool: Hager next?????????????

Snapper

18-08-2014, 04:17 PM

I have just been on I Predict, there seems to be a dramatic change with a 50% chance of a Labour coalition. If this all plays out to that end we are now witnessing a self immolation by the National Government in a monumental proportion, from an unassailable lead to the precipice of defeat. There is a reasonable probability of John Key snatching defeat from the Jaws of victory. Should this happen Nationals greatest political asset will become a liability. The party and the caucus will not hesitate to turn on him. The likelihood of the untainted and popular Paula Bennett being National Party leader and leader of the opposition in the next Parliament is rapidly on the cusp of reality. The only thing John Key can do is dispense with Judith Collins, Wayne Eagleson and Jason Ede ASAP, stop defending the indefensible, and hope for the best. Whether he will see the light and rise to this challenge remains to be seen. How strong his self preservation instinct is remains an open question. However these are desperate times and demand drastic measures, if not he is yesterdays man.

Yes, looks like it could be a cliffhanger all right. At some stage, though, it will come back to policies and people. On the policy front there's not a hell of a lot of difference between Labour and National, although preferring National I could live with Labour. The trouble is, who knows what sort of policy concessions they'll have to make to the Greens, NZ First and IMP to be able to cobble together some sort of govt?

Regarding people, National have a far superior lineup of potential ministers (all right, apart from Judith Collins who should have got the boot long ago). All the competent ones in Labour are ABCs and there's only one person in the Greens, Kevin Hague, who I would like to see as a minister. Russel Norman as Minister of Finance, anyone?

Labour needs to get some decent people into parliament if it's going to have a chance of being a competent government, it should have been renewing like National has been but too late now. David Cunliffe has risen to his level of incompetence, he probably would have made a decent minister but no way a PM.

Snapper

18-08-2014, 04:54 PM

"Really? Are you serious? No, I mean, are you really serious?

Both Labour and the Greens are the parties for full employment. So are the Greens! That means getting people off the dole and working. If that means training them work in today's world, then good! Collectively both Labour and the Greens are also parties for open R&D. National wants to spend R&D their supporters only (i.e. the National party gets to choose where it gets spent!)

Snapper ... People who say such things are either National Party supporters or haven't studied the policies. Which are you?"

Labour have stated that they will be removing the 90 day trial period if they get in. Absolutely the worst thing they could do for unemployment. Labour/Greens or is it Greens/Labour might say they going to have full employment but easier said than done. Raising the minimum wage? unsure if that will raise unemployment or not but unlikely to be positive. MSD has started making real gains in shifting long-term unemployed and trying to break the cycle of intergenerational welfare so I think National are doing something right. I agree with you that there's a lot of stuff that National could be doing better and I'm certainly not a dyed-in-the-wool National voter but they've got my vote this time. Probably more of an anti Cunliffe/Norman/Harre/Dotcom than pro National but same result.

fungus pudding

18-08-2014, 05:05 PM

Probably more of an anti Cunliffe/Norman/Harre/Dotcom than pro National but same result.

That's always the best reason to vote. Very few could ever say they like every policy of any party, but they all have something to hate.
You left Minto off the above list. He's a big enough fright all by himself.

Snapper

18-08-2014, 05:10 PM

That's always the best reason to vote. Very few could ever say they like every policy of any party, but they all have something to hate.
You left Minto off the above list. He's a big enough fright all by himself.

Very true :)

elZorro

18-08-2014, 05:16 PM

Snapper

18-08-2014, 05:30 PM

GTM 3442

18-08-2014, 06:05 PM

No, I mean like a loonie left criminal who is hell bent in destroying National, but in his failure will implode Left Wing parties for at least 5 to 10 years. Maybe he is Robin Hood - for National.:D

That would not be a good result. No country deserves to have the same clique in power for more than a decade - the potential for cronyism and corruption is far too great.

elZorro

18-08-2014, 07:18 PM

God no, haven't met any any of them, the same as 99% of the rest of the population (though I did go to school with Kevin Hague, very smart guy). Re the dirty politics, if I was famous and had the choice of Nicky Hagar reading my emails or the GCSB I think I'd choose the GCSB!

I've had email correspondence with Nicky Hager, he seemed perfectly normal and friendly to me.

Here, on the other hand, is John Key when he's backed into a corner.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/20146037/fallout-from-dirty-politics-widens

Snapper

18-08-2014, 08:11 PM

I've had email correspondence with Nicky Hager, he seemed perfectly normal and friendly to me.

Here, on the other hand, is John Key when he's backed into a corner.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/20146037/fallout-from-dirty-politics-widens

I'm sure Nicky Hagar's a great bloke. John Key, however, is probably over journalists going on about the book. There's only a couple of things that are dodgy (Judith Collins being one of them) so what's the big deal? As far as the emails released today go, what a fizzer. I was more interested in the $100 mil on cycleways, straight out of the Green's policy handbook!

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 09:54 PM

I've had email correspondence with Nicky Hager, he seemed perfectly normal and friendly to me.

Here, on the other hand, is John Key when he's backed into a corner.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/20146037/fallout-from-dirty-politics-widens (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA5WiBiQzgQ)

EZ, I can do that post of your too, here's mine.

I've had email correspondence with Cameron Slater, he seemed perfectly normal and friendly to me. True BTW.
Here, on the other hand, is David Cunliffe when he's backed into a corner.
David Cunliffe in his finest hour. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSQzTKcUda0)

I just played that link you posted again that I'm quoting from above. Is your link what you wanted to post?

elZorro

18-08-2014, 10:07 PM

EZ, I can do that post of your too, here's mine.

I've had email correspondence with Cameron Slater, he seemed perfectly normal and friendly to me. True BTW.
Here, on the other hand, is David Cunliffe when he's backed into a corner.
David Cunliffe in his finest hour. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSQzTKcUda0)

I just played that link you posted again that I'm quoting from above. Is your link what you wanted to post?

Yep.

You know that DC was in context with his words, don't you? Anyway, you should stop trying to distract us from the fun and games coming up. :)

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 10:09 PM

Yep.

You know that DC was in context with his words, don't you? Anyway, you should stop trying to distract us from the fun and games coming up. :)You know you're backing criminals EZ, do you often take this approach?

Cuzzie

18-08-2014, 10:17 PM

elZorro

19-08-2014, 07:34 AM

BTW, fun and games is what Labour is all about. They have already lost the election so they give us this. There is none dirtier than a Labour campaign, we all know that for sure now. Seriously, Cunliffe is just a joke, he's not even a good M.P, but no P.M material. Good fodder for the junos though.

David Cunliffe was on TV1 this morning for his slot, great job! How he spoke today, was much closer to how he is in a smaller gathering, very committed, completely unscripted, he must be a lot more comfortable than usual. He was already good at TV slots, now he's excellent. Watch out John Key.

Colin James is not about to call the election for Labour.

Colin James's Otago Daily Times column for 19 August 2014
The economy works for National -- for now

In politics friends can sometimes be as big a risk as enemies. John Key's chats with Cameron Slater/Whale Oil reflect two aspects of him which might in time gnaw at his popularity.

One side is the cavalier. He got offside at the candidates meeting in his Helensville electorate by breaking the rules and talking of other parties' policies. In Parliament's question time he is an unstatesmanlike larrikin.

If he does that in the leaders debates, it might rebound by making David Cunliffe look reasonable, as Steven Joyce's bovver-boy attack made Grant Robertson look reasonable on TV3 earlier this month.

The second element of Key's link with Slater which might in time erode his appeal is his bland, see-no-evil evasiveness in tight spots, as with John Banks. There will come a time when that doesn't work. If a close aide like Jason Ede, a Slater supplier targeted by Nicky Hager, does something, in effect Key does it.

Key is nearly always blokey, affable and straight, a bubble of national optimism. But left-liberals discern also a dark side. If other sorts start to think they glimpse a dark side now and then, his appeal will slide. That's the Whale Oil risk.

In the 32 days to election day Key can probably count on personally riding out Hager. That is important because Key's appeal is one of National's two big campaign advantages.

The other big campaign advantage is the economy. It will still be a strong card even if some of Hager's mud sticks and even if Key miscues during the campaign as he did in 2011 when he over-reacted to the recording of his public meeting with John Banks.

This "campaign economy" is not the economy of GDP-fixated bank economists. The economy that voters know is their household finances. The vote yardstick is whether those finances are improving and whether voters think they are.

Election-critical middling households' finances have been improving on the back of job growth and modest income growth. And those voters also mostly do think their finances are improving. In Colmar Brunton's TV1 poll 54 per cent in late July (this month's are not yet available) expected the economy to get better in the next year and only 24 per cent said it would get worse. The June quarter's strong retail figures, buoyed by job growth, attest to that confidence.

Add Roy Morgan's reading of whether the country is going in the right direction: in late July 60 per cent said it was and only 25 per cent said it wasn't.

Though both measures are down off their 62 per cent and 66 per cent respective peaks, they were still so high that an incumbent government could expect re-election if this was a first-past-the-post election.

But do those easing confidence figures indicate consumers are beginning to sense something? Is the economy -- the bank economists' economy -- through the best?

In a word, yes. Business confidence is well down from its autumn highs, even if still firm. Job growth and average hourly earnings growth slowed in the June quarter. Dairy prices are 40 per cent down. Forestry prices are down.

By the end of 2014 the mood is likely to have eased a bit more. Key chose well to bring the election forward from November.

Then through 2015 interest rates will bite and the Canterbury rebuild will contribute less to GDP growth, which will slow towards a more normal 2-to-2.5 per cent in 2016. Voters won't then be so well-disposed to the government.

Add to that a fiscal crunch in the district health boards. Then add 0.8 per cent lower government revenue in the 11 months to May than forecast.

That suggests the pre-election economic and fiscal update due today will be a bit less bullish about a budget surplus in 2014-15.

A marginal slippage doesn't matter much economically or fiscally. But Key and Bill English have built up the surplus into a re-election icon.

Go wider. Has English in six years fixed what he said was Michael Cullen's biggest failure: exports' low share of GDP?

Not exactly. Merchandise exports rose only a sliver from 21.6 per cent of Treasury-calculated GDP in the year to June 2008 to 22.2 per cent in the year to June 2014 -- and that was on the back of rock-star dairy prices in 2013-14. The 2007-08 year was Cullen's last full year as finance minister and the last before the global financial crisis (GFC) jumbled the numbers.

Add in services, including tourism, on a different Treasury-based measure: the "rise" was a microscopic 0.1 per cent from 29.6 per cent to 29.7 per cent between the year to March 2008 and the year to March 2014.

English was also going to get people saving. Households on average far outspent their income through Cullen's time. But after a short period in credit after the GFC they are back in deficit. House prices are a factor.

For now households feel OK, which helps National this election. But they are unlikely to feel so good by 2016-17. That is because there is much to do on the economy. Which won't be done through smart tricks on the Prime Minister's floor on the Beehive.

Colin James, Synapsis Ltd, 04-384 7030, 021-438 434, P O Box 9494, Marion Square, Wellington 6141, ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000042/!x-usc:mailto:ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz), website www.ColinJames.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000042/!x-usc:http://www.colinjames.co.nz/)

elZorro

19-08-2014, 08:22 AM

Here's an article about CGT from someone who clearly doesn't like the sound of it. No facts available, but he'll write an article about it anyway, and get it in the Herald. So far, so good.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11310433

In the comments at the end, his article is deconstructed by members of the public, almost all of whom think we need a CGT.

I particularly agree with this comment from Bob Smith.

I think large part of the issue though, is the perception of housing investment being tax free.

While in reality it isn't as clear cut to the average joe, the lack of an explicit capital gains tax and the ability to right of expenses gives the impression that investing in housing allows for tax free profit.

The issue is that while to an extent this may be true, they could possibly get a better return (even after tax) on their money from investing elsewhere.

I suspect a real advantage of introducing a capital gains might not be in the actual revenue gained etc. but in adjusting the perception of housing as a tax free investment, and therefore being a better investment than one in which you might have to pay tax.

Bob Smith - 11:00 AM Monday, 18 Aug 2014

Cuzzie

19-08-2014, 09:23 AM

David Cunliffe was on TV1 this morning for his slot, great job! How he spoke today, was much closer to how he is in a smaller gathering, very committed, completely unscripted, he must be a lot more comfortable than usual. He was already good at TV slots, now he's excellent. Watch out John Key.

Colin James is not about to call the election for Labour. No he didn't. Look EZ everyone knows you are star struck by the guy, but for me he just came over as the sleeze ball he is. Nobody can trust one word coming from his mouth unless you are star struck like EZ. I fell off my seat when he said something like "it does not matter if the Labour website was open or not, you can not copy its material or go into read it". Hello, that means we are all breaking the Law by reading this post on this website because it is open and you EZ, will have to stop quoting from websites. They are open and according to D.C you "EZ" must stop it. And his wife is a Lawyer, he should know better. D.C failed to add that Hager and KDC hacking computers is completely illegal.
Cunliffe is two faced and only says what suits him. He wants to be P.M? You have just got to laugh at the hypocrisy of the man who is sorry to be a man.

winner69

19-08-2014, 09:35 AM

iPredict money getting back into Nats again, punters bailing from Labour

Money based 'poll' like this better than any other poll, money speaks

elZorro

19-08-2014, 09:36 AM

No he didn't. Look EZ everyone knows you are star struck by the guy, but for me he just came over as the sleeze ball he is. Nobody can trust one word coming from his mouth unless you are star struck like EZ. I fell off my seat when he said something like "it does not matter if the Labour website was open or not, you can not copy its material or go into read it". Hello, that means we are all breaking the Law by reading this post on this website because it is open and you EZ, will have to stop quoting from websites. They are open and according to D.C you "EZ" must stop it. And his wife is a Lawyer, he should know better. D.C failed to add that Hager and KDC hacking computers is completely illegal.
Cunliffe is two faced and only says what suits him. He wants to be P.M? You have just got to laugh at the hypocrisy of the man who is sorry to be a man.

Don't be hoodwinked Cuzzie. IPSOS poll out today, on a very important metric. Who out of David Cunliffe or John Key would you rather have a beer with?

This is a multiple choice question, with two choices. It's totally loaded as a poll, because National has been pushing the idea of a blokey, jokey John Key for years.

The poll concluded before the book came out, so if now, a new poll was conducted with questions more like "Who do you trust out of these two" or "Who is more likely to help put up your wages" or "Whose policies will help you get into a home of your own", then we might see a different result.

elZorro

19-08-2014, 09:39 AM

iPredict money getting back into Nats again, punters bailing from Labour

Money based 'poll' like this better than any other poll, money speaks

Of course we all know which side generally has more money, W69. But there are in theory a lot more on the left, and each person only gets to spend $2500 at most, in a 6 month period. (Those are the rules, anyway). You must be getting tapped out by now, surely.

In any case, I see that Labour's chances of having David Cunliffe as the PM later on this year, are quickly improving.

Someone at Exceltium had better close iPredict off for the week, before it's too embarrassing.

Banksie

19-08-2014, 09:42 AM

iPredict money getting back into Nats again, punters bailing from Labour

Money based 'poll' like this better than any other poll, money speaks

There has been a surge on NZ Minister to depart in 2014 (https://www.ipredict.co.nz/app.php?do=contract_detail&contract=MIN3.DEPART.2014), I wonder you the punters think will be leaving?

Mmmhhh, I am not sure I can see the big shift to Nats W69. I only see a 1c improvement in the National Prime Minister after next election.

Cuzzie

19-08-2014, 09:56 AM

Good on you Bob- His words below.

If this election was a boxing match, the referee would have stopped the fight months back given the non-stop punishment and eight counts David Cunliffe's taken.

But it's not, and although rare, there are examples of fighters taking a shellacking round after round, then pulling off a shock KO punch, late victory.

That needs qualification, however. There's certainly no cases of a fighter repeatedly being floored by his own self-inflicted blows, as has occurred with Cunliffe. In those circumstances he'd be disqualified for bringing the sport into disrepute.

Other sports offer the battered Labour leader more hope with last minute come-from-behind victories, particularly rugby, tennis and football. But seeking solace from sporting history, Cunliffe will derive most from the greatest game of all, namely test cricket. It shares a significant feature with politics, unique in sport but part of its allure, namely in not being contested fairly. Winning the toss can be crucial; likewise a weather change can make a huge difference favouring one side.

So too with politics, the governing party having an inbuilt advantage, this reversing after three terms when voters seek fresh faces. That's hardly the case with the Key government, moreso as Labour's proffered fresh faces are tokenistic unknowns. Also, bad weather is traditionally bad for Labour.

Putting aside John Key tossing it in to become a Hare Krishna, to cause an upset Labour must target the middle floating voters and the non-voting lower-income sector. With the floating voters, a devastating rout over John Key in the televised leaders' debate would make a difference. That's unlikely; indeed the opposite is more probable.

Still, remember 2002 after Peter Dunne impressed in the leaders' debate and ended up with nine MPs -- most, one suspects, hitherto unknown to him. But the polls suggest National's support is firmly intact and the votes up for grabs are those Labour's lost. If Cunliffe tries to buy these with targeted largesse expenditure, as he's doing, then he could lose more as increasingly voters appreciate it's their money politicians are offering to spend. This irresponsibility simply consolidates National's marketed image of being financially prudent. In targeting the elderly with doctor visits paid by taxpayers, Cunliffe invades Winston's support base, yet he cannot form a government without New Zealand First reaching 5 per cent and throwing its support behind Labour.

Using Matt McCarten as the master tactician plainly hasn't worked. Matt's imagery is vintage 1935, which may be a contributing factor in the disastrous polls. His purported skill is getting out the vote with the non-voting low-income sector, although there's no evidence of significant past general election successes.

Reverting to sporting parallels and this election, during Muhammad Ali's long career, wherever he fought, an accompanying entourage of flashy black men with their dazzling mistresses were there. Bedecked in appallingly bad-taste, massive chunky gold necklaces and rings (that's the men; the women were elegant), they arrived at the fight destination a week early. They weren't boxing aficionados or Ali fans but instead professional gamblers who were living the high-life through exploiting a standard human foible relevant to this election. That is to rationalise an outcome aligned to one's wishes, despite the overwhelming evidence against it. Thus, when Ali fought an obviously inferior opponent with absolutely no chance, they'd offer odds so extreme the opponent's died-in-the-wool fan base would succumb to temptation and be in it. It was like offering a million to one against night following day. Do that and silly buggers would be in it, just as with the Ali betting cottage industry.

Similar wishful thinking is occurring with Labour supporters despite the election outcome appearing a foregone conclusion. The pundits are obliged to write about it, thus persist with endless rationalisations as to why, despite the polls but through minor party machinations, there could be a Labour government. Meanwhile, Labour's increasingly despairing faithful, the equivalent of those long-odds fans of Ali's opponents, fill talk-back and the internet with their delusions. Ali did eventually lose to Leon Spinks in a huge upset but it cost those gamblers nothing, for Spinks had no devoted fan base to be seduced by what would have been extraordinarily long odds. That result was analogous to Colin Craig becoming Prime Minister. If the TAB was offering wagers on the election they'd probably be offering about five to one against a Labour victory, and as with Ali's opponents' deluded fans, would find plenty of takers.

The prohibition on them offering bets on elections or anything other than sport is regretful. What a pleasure if one could bang a tenner on whether Winston will get up again, or on Labour or the Conservatives' percentage vote, or who will win the Napier seat, and endless other contingencies. It would certainly add a fun dimension to a contest now tiresome given its obvious outcome.

Cuzzie

19-08-2014, 10:21 AM

One has-been attack dog and a fawning novice attack dog wannabe agreeing that they're both normal. Does that surprise anyone? I'm surprised you would make that statement belg haha. BYW, phone call received. Don't think I'll get another one, depends on how stupid one can be I suppose.:cool:

Cuzzie

19-08-2014, 10:40 AM

Given how stupid you so often sound I suspect you'll be welcomed by Slater as his last remaining friend. Be careful, Cuz. Snuggling up to that viper is unlikely to do you any favours. He'll sell you out in next to no time if it suites him. And if you've no money to support him, then it'll be sooner rather than later.But that would only be in your small world, the same small world that gives D.C 9% of the voting population that want the apologetic wonder to be our next P.M. In my world over 50% of the voting public want J.K to be our next P.M. Can you spot the difference. You have a big voice in your small world belg, but even given that fact - I can barely hear you.:closed eyes: What did you say? :cool:

Banksie

19-08-2014, 10:41 AM

fungus pudding

19-08-2014, 10:54 AM

Did anyone see the the "at the end of the day" counter on Campbell Live late night. That had me chuckling.

But at the end of the day I guess I should be voting on the policies not the overuse of tired idioms ;).

Try counting 'the reality is' from Stephen Joyce or Winston First. Or the current favourite 'to be fair' from any number of them.

Sgt Pepper

19-08-2014, 11:53 AM

Ah, but at the end of day its your idol Key that we're all laughing at.

Indeed
John Keys repetitive " at the end of the day" is a bit tiresome don't you think Belg. Personally I think it could be accounted for by a faulty chip implant (CT4503-12b) which is Crosby Textor 4503-12b) . The trouble is, you see, Crosby Textor launched their robot (JK 4503) in November 2008 without fully testing it. Robot JK 4503 usually is fairly independent, apparently the software even allows it to take itself off to Hawaii every year, and it can even play golf. However lately its controllers at Crosby Textor have noted a bizarre , almost emotional attachment to a certain Minister of Justice which they, their software designers, nor anyone else can explain. The controllers are concerned as this aberration seem to override the robots self preservation module.There was real concern two days ago when JK 4503 was being interviewed that his power source was being rapidly depleted. They have reminded Bill English that JK 4503 MUST be plugged in for recharging overnight. The good news however is that apparently the software design that enables the Robot JK 4503 to withhold the facts and blame others is fully functional, to their great relief.