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Cuzzie
19-08-2014, 12:59 PM
I'd love to have a beer with Funnyliffe, I'd like that a lot.

Banksie
19-08-2014, 02:09 PM
This has got to be one of the funniest bits of reporting for the day:



It is now the second time Ms Collins has been put on notice that she was on a final chance after failing to mention a dinner she had with the heads of Oravida during a trip to China.


Mr Key said that was still in place and denied she was now on her "last last" chance.


"What she's on is on her last chance after what happened last time. But at the end of the day she's also subjected to a left-wing smear campaign. And people will actually see that as well for what it is."


In March, following the Oravida revelations, Mr Key was asked whether Ms Collins was on her last chance.


He said: "I wouldn't want to be in her shoes if there was a repeat of it."


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11311222

westerly
19-08-2014, 06:27 PM
Looking at the latest polls, National has a problem, despite the whale oil apprentices rather desperate attempts to write off the left.
Nationals natural allies the Act and Conservative parties are polling almost in negative territory.
National is around 50% of committed voters. That 15% or more who are still thinking or not prepared to offer an opinion hold the key ? to the election. And then there is the unknown number who just hang up at the mention of the word poll.
I expect more and more legal threats, derogatory comments, and plenty of entertainment from the centre right, far right, as the fall out from Hager's book develops.

westerly

elZorro
19-08-2014, 10:09 PM
Gordon Campbell has some very interesting points here, too.

http://gordoncampbell.scoop.co.nz/2014/08/19/gordon-campbell-on-no-more-mr-nice-guy/

I agree that Bill English will be likely to come out of this series of debacles unscathed. But in view of the billions of dollars of normal expenses that have been unusually capitalised, there is no real budget surplus in the offing, and that'll be obvious to an incumbent. The govt has also admitted that their borrowing will need to go on for another two years (at least), on their current track.

It's the new normal I suppose?

elZorro
20-08-2014, 07:42 AM
National suggested on the news last night that there could be more tax cuts in the offing, but they won't say when. That future event will surely help them get to, and stay in, budget surplus.

Here's the article.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11311137

Again the old line is trotted out, that National inherited a recession when they took over the reins in 2008. So they've done well to action practically no long-term projects since, except sell off some assets and rack up a lot of borrowing. Chumps.

Here's a page from stats NZ, there was a GDP fall in mid 2008, through to mid next year. You can see from the charts that most of that fall in GDP must have been under National's watch, because that's when it really kicked in. There was a small drop of about 0.2 to 0.3 % of GDP (remember it had been rising very steadily under Labour) for two quarters before the election. So if it was technically a recession, it was at that stage, a very small one.

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/income-and-work/employment_and_unemployment/nz-labour-market-during-recession.aspx

National is still using this feeble data everywhere (on the hustings), that they inherited a recession from Labour. They actually inherited what had until then been a pause in robust GDP growth, with most long-term debt paid off, and a decades record unemployment figure.

Cuzzie
20-08-2014, 08:02 AM
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/20146025/prime-minister-stands-by-minister-and-staff

Nice post ElZ. ... Guyon Espiner has in one interview turned "honest John" into "dodgy John" ... Key's ducking and diving is weak and sounds very unnatural to the point of being scripted.

Poor John - this guy is out of league now.Out of his league compared to what?

Cuzzie
20-08-2014, 08:11 AM
I love this photo from a National ad campaign.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11311360


For me it's kind of a legal way to shove it where the sun don't shine after the dirty rotten loonie lefts stealing all of Nationals Billboards & or defacing them. This shows National smarter having fun, while the loonie lefts illegal fun is as smart as they can get.

Sgt Pepper
20-08-2014, 11:54 AM
Brian Rudman explains in nice simple english both Key's hypocrisy and abysmal knowledge of the law.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11311371

As an IT professional I'm sick and tired of such antics. I want these people made an example of and punished to the full extent of the Law. If National party supporters really believe that National is for 'law and order" they join me in this. Will you?

Belg

I think John Keys current predicament could be summed up with perhaps, the following list of song he could play.

"HELP "! by the Beatles

"ONE MORE CHANCE" by Madonna

" I READ THE NEWS TODAY".. OH BOY! from the Beatles. A day in the life

" ITS NOT FAIR!" by Lily Allen

" SOMEEONE ELSE TO BLAME" by Midnight Oil

" SENSE OF DENIAL" by Soft Ward

Cuzzie
20-08-2014, 12:45 PM
Belg

I think John Keys current predicament could be summed up with perhaps, the following list of song he could play.

"HELP "! by the Beatles

"ONE MORE CHANCE" by Madonna

" I READ THE NEWS TODAY".. OH BOY! from the Beatles. A day in the life

" ITS NOT FAIR!" by Lily Allen

" SOMEEONE ELSE TO BLAME" by Midnight Oil

" SENSE OF DENIAL" by Soft Ward
sp, If you think Key is in some kind of trouble, please enlighten me, as I have no idea what you are banging on about. Key has already seen off three Labour Leaders and Cunliffe is soon to be number four. With over 90 voters in 100 not wanting Cunliffe to be our next Prime Minister, perhaps you can list some songs for him. I'm only too glad to help you out here, all you have to do is ask!!! Only one of those leaders had the credentials for going head to head with Key, but Labour shot themselves in the foot and didn't let Sherer have a go.

This is how I rate the last four Labour Leaders.
1/ David Shearer by a country mile.
2/ Phil Goff miles behind Shearer
3/ David Cunliffe light years behind Goff
4/ Helen Clark just behind Cunliffe.

The reason Shearer stands out is obvious.

Cuzzie
20-08-2014, 02:21 PM
Cuz, question: Where is Jason Ede?

"You are all claiming there is this vast conspiracy - it simply doesn't exist. That Jason Ede is some sort of ringmaster? In my view, Jason Ede is squeamish, and gutless.

"And the fact he has gone to ground and hiding and not speaking to anybody suggests that's true.

"My advice is front-foot everything. My advice is speak and tell your story. If you don't tell your story, everyone else is telling your story with their narrative."

Slater said his style of politics differed from many others. "I play politics like Fijians play rugby. My role is smashing your face into the ground.

"Politics is a nasty despicable game and its played by nasty despicable people. Where's the surprise in this?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11311070

BTW Cuz, I warned you to be very careful of Slater. This viper is angry and has already started biting anybody it can. But I digress ... Slater was calling Ede "gutless" ...

So where is Ede?

He's the man who could confirm everything. E.g. exactly what his role was and what he did. What Key knew or did not. So where is he?

Mr Ede - who now works as a National Party staff member - has gone to ground since publication of the book while Mr Key has attempted to explain his actions as normal political practice.

How convenient ... the middle-man, who at the time was a public servant!, who could ensure Key gets out of jail in one interview. So why hasn't he? ... Because he can't? Could this be even worse?

This smells like a conspiracy to me.Slater calls it how it is, you may not understand that because you are one eyed. Slater has both eyes wide open and if somebody from National deserves a lashout from him, they will get it. Point in action - here is another one from today's blog. http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/joyce-making-****-stuart-nash/ (http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/joyce-making-****-stuart-nash/) That's why I like Slater, no cr@p about the man and wont hold back if he is on your side or not. That's something the left can't understand and if you go against them from the left the other loonie lefts call you scum. National is just more honest than dishonest Labour, that's for sure.
I'll call it too, where the hell are you Ede, man up and don't act like a loonie left fanboy. fp and the Major have disagreed with stuff I've said on here and I've disagreed with f.p, that's healthy belg, we are individuals who have arrived at a decision for our own reasons. We don't all act as one. I don't always agree with John Key, but even though David Cunliffe makes plenty of wrong decisions you will Never Ever Ever hear your or EZ say a bad word about him. Funny that!

westerly
20-08-2014, 06:36 PM
Interesting excerpt from an article by Andrea Vance, goes someway to explain whale oils antagonism to Steven Joyce. Also shows there is friction within National not just Labour.

“It will come as no surprise to political observers that Mr Lusk is on Team Collins. "My impression is that Judith has a better rapport with the donor base and a bigger team than Steven [Joyce], with more people who are able to take on crucial roles in campaigning and fundraising and within the party."
Both Justice Minister Collins and Employment Minister Joyce are not ready to rebuild the National Party from opposition, he believes.
And he has a cryptic warning for Mr Joyce. "Unfortunately for Steven, he has not chosen his staff wisely. Some of them lack grace when dealing with backbenchers. Treating those who vote for the leader like something unpleasant on the sole of your shoe is unlikely to see backbench votes fall in behind Steven."
Indeed, it is this bitter relationship with Mr Joyce that some cite as the reason why the party distances itself from Mr Lusk. One source described him this week as "politically bubonic".
Earlier this month, Prime Minister John Key said: "I think I once described [Lusk] on a scale of 1 to 10, as minus-1."
A source says that after Mr Lusk's success with candidates in the 2008 election there was a push by some MPs to have him involved in the national election campaign.
"It was seen in the hierarchy as him pushing for a very specific role, undermining the role of the campaign chair, Steven Joyce," a source said. "That's lethal and there was a backlash."
There was also substantiated concern that he was using a "carrot and stick" approach to attracting clients. The carrot was his skills, the stick was unfavourable coverage on the Whaleoil blog. These were whispers, which no-one ever came forward to confirm. Mr Lusk is "blunt, but I wouldn't say nasty", the source say.
When the National Party came whispering to me that being associated with Cam was bad for my career I told them that Cam's tenure meant he was too important to drop as a career," Mr Lusk says.”

westerly

elZorro
20-08-2014, 07:11 PM
I wonder what Andrea Vance thinks of the Hager book (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10392956/Jason-Ede-still-has-Beehive-access). That's a smart National party TV ad, by the way. Kinda blows away the Labour ad I saw a preview of, if you're a non-thinking voter.


I'm an employer, but I remember what it was like working for a pay packet (it's a lot easier and less risky, certainly).

This article from the CTU relays the point of view of workers, and there are a lot of them (not as many as there should be).

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1408/S00119/it-doesnt-have-to-be-like-this.htm

More on the Judith Collins episode, a video just released an hour ago. Note the shaky John Key, who does get through the interview without walking off, but faces a barrage of increasingly tricky questions. Reading between the lines, if National manages to squeak back in, and they shouldn't, then Judith Collins will be without major portfolios. She's untouchable at the moment though.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=144944

More damage for the career of Judith Collins, here's a not-so-subtle $20,000, Aaron, for finding that unprotected hole in the Labour Party servers.

http://www.3news.co.nz/Collins-gave-job-to-Whale-Oil-tipster/tabid/1607/articleID/357323/Default.aspx

elZorro
20-08-2014, 08:13 PM
Here's the Planet Key video, for those who may have missed seeing it in full. It just keeps on getting better. Great skills from the musicians and the animator on show here. I really liked those political caricature TV shows we used to have. If more money comes back into the creative sector, we might see them again.

http://vimeo.com/102441715

The SIS oOIA procedures that helped out Whale Oil, while real journalists had to wait, are being checked by the Inspector General, Cheryl Gwyn. She reports to the Prime Minister.

http://www.security.govt.nz/about-us/oversight/

It would seem that this is one area where National has not chucked out a lot of bureaucrats, they've expanded the office quite a bit. So Ms Gwyn will not be lacking in resources. We should have an answer well before the election.;)

http://www.clanzonline.org/cheryl-gwyn-inspecting-the-spies/

Cuzzie
20-08-2014, 08:35 PM
Sorry, stopped reading at that point. In what world are you in that Slater could ever be considered "reasonable". A world inhabited by nasty, sleazy, tax dodging criminals? Is this what Planet Key looks like? Be an apologist for Slater and all who associate with him if you like backing losers ... More fool you. And that's just Slater reporting on the Loonie Left so you are right of course. Somebody has to pen Labours bad.

Cuzzie
20-08-2014, 09:04 PM
Party Support


National 48.0% (+2.0%)
Labour 27.5% (-2.5%)
Green 11.5% (-0.5%)
NZ First 6.5% (+1.5%)
Maori 1.0% (+0.5%)
United Future 0.5% (nc)
ACT 0.5% (nc)
Mana/Internet 2.5% (nc)
Conservative 1.0% (nc)

This poll was taken during the Dirty Politics with Hagers stolen/hacked emails being altered and cool stories added. Looks like Labour took the blame and is 2.5% down. Ha, ha, ha, serves them right. It has hit National too though, they are only up, yep that's right, up 2.5%. That's a whopping 5% swing in Nationals favor right there. NZ First may be the biggest beneficiary of a discredited National Government attempt by Left wing criminals stealing & hacking emails rather than the main opposition Labour and Greens parties.” NZ First were up 1.5 points to 6.5%. Hager & the fatmann will be spewing, his beloved Green party down 0.5 points to 11.5% & all left wing parties down 3% overall. I feel they should be way less than this considering criminal Nicky Hager's link with the Greens.

Projected Seats


National 58
Labour 34
Green 14
ACT 1
Maori 3
United Future 1
Mana/Internet 3
NZ First 8
Total 122

This is based on no change in electorate seats.
Now time to put the heat on Nicky Hager and Kim Dot Com, plus David Cunliffe's ill advised support of this criminal activity.


:)It has been another fine day in paradise has it not?:)


:DIt seems the left wing fanboys can't knock the smile off my face as hard as they try.:D

elZorro
20-08-2014, 09:58 PM
Cuzzie, this was a very low-tech poll, under 1000 voters, and for 10 out of the 14 days it was conducted, the "Dirty Politics" book had not been exposed. Even then, details were slow to filter out. The press have only started to adjust their questioning more directly, this week.

I think I'll enjoy waiting for the next poll.



Roy Morgan: During the beginning of the polling period Labour held its formal campaign launch and amongst other things promised free GP visits for all aged over 65. Also during the early period the media had a heavy focus on the minor parties and in particular ACT and Internet/Mana.
There was also a great deal of coverage of “dirty politics” in particular billboard vandalism with anti-Semitic overtones and youths burning effigies of John Key.Electors were asked: “If a New Zealand Election were held today which party would receive your party vote?” This latest New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll on voting intention was conducted by telephone – both landline and mobile telephone, with a NZ wide cross-section of 809 electors from August 4-17, 2014. Of all electors surveyed 6.5% (unchanged) didn’t name a party.

Breaking News? If only it wasn't a scam. (http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Judith-Collins-resigns---really/tabid/674/articleID/52713/Default.aspx)

elZorro
21-08-2014, 06:35 AM
Some of the young Nats have been buying the "Dirty Politics" book and burning them, apparently funded by the National Party. 202 copies in Hamilton alone, yesterday? Those books would have cost $7070. That'll put a dent in the campaign funds, but won't stop the inquisition!

http://www.openureyes.org.nz/blog/?q=node/5702 digs through to the facebook pages discussing it.

Stuff story on this: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10405472/Young-Nats-buying-and-burning-Dirty-Politics

I have lent out my valuable first edition book to another Labour supporter. I will need to get it back, those desperate young Nats might purloin it!

You have to wonder, at what age do some National supporters get the message that it's OK to destroy the opposition, to lie about things like burning books, to renege on paying for their share of the roading, schools and hospitals, etc.

On a lighter note:

Every Hager book that is still for sale in NZ, should be under lock and key. It should only be sold at the low retail price of $35, and in quantities of one, and then only if the purchaser is able to recite (word for word) all of Labour's policies, swear allegiance to Helen Clark and David Cunliffe, and prostrate themselves at the altar/locked cabinet of "Dirty Politics".

Cuzzie
21-08-2014, 08:41 AM
Some of the young Nats have been buying the "Dirty Politics" book and burning them, apparently funded by the National Party. 202 copies in Hamilton alone, yesterday? Those books would have cost $7070. That'll put a dent in the campaign funds, but won't stop the inquisition!

http://www.openureyes.org.nz/blog/?q=node/5702 digs through to the facebook pages discussing it.

Stuff story on this: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10405472/Young-Nats-buying-and-burning-Dirty-Politics

I have lent out my valuable first edition book to another Labour supporter. I will need to get it back, those desperate young Nats might purloin it!

You have to wonder, at what age do some National supporters get the message that it's OK to destroy the opposition, to lie about things like burning books, to renege on paying for their share of the roading, schools and hospitals, etc.

On a lighter note:

Every Hager book that is still for sale in NZ, should be under lock and key. It should only be sold at the low retail price of $35, and in quantities of one, and then only if the purchaser is able to recite (word for word) all of Labour's policies, swear allegiance to Helen Clark and David Cunliffe, and prostrate themselves at the altar/locked cabinet of "Dirty Politics".
Rumours doing the rounds on social media yesterday suggested a group of Young Nats in Hamilton might take matters into their own hands and dispose of a large stock of the dreaded book.It’s not exactly on the same scale as the book burnings of the Nazi regime or the anti-communist McCarthy era but social media was yesterday buzzing with rumours of an imminent book burning at Waikato University.
The head of the Waikato Students’ Union and a former member of the Young Nats is alleged to have bought 202 copies of Hager’s book to burn.
Aaron Letcher has denied the claims, but the leader of NZ First Youth and a Waikato University source, who asked not to be named, said he did.
Letcher said the claims were false.
“There is nothing to it. I saw the allegations on Facebook by a NZ First person”
The Facebook page Letcher was referring to belongs to NZ First Youth leader Curwen Rolinson, who posted: “So apparently, the CNI Young Nats (and, assumedly, the NZ Young Nats) are buying up copies of Nicky Hager’s #DirtyPolitics . . . and burning them.”

Rumors EZ Rumors, but what else do we expect for the Loonie Left and their dirty tricks?



"Most of the above was Nicky Hagered by me"

fungus pudding
21-08-2014, 08:53 AM
Rumours doing the rounds on social media yesterday suggested a group of Young Nats in Hamilton might take matters into their own hands and dispose of a large stock of the dreaded book.It’s not exactly on the same scale as the book burnings of the Nazi regime or the anti-communist McCarthy era but social media was yesterday buzzing with rumours of an imminent book burning at Waikato University.
The head of the Waikato Students’ Union and a former member of the Young Nats is alleged to have bought 202 copies of Hager’s book to burn.
Aaron Letcher has denied the claims, but the leader of NZ First Youth and a Waikato University source, who asked not to be named, said he did.
Letcher said the claims were false.
“There is nothing to it. I saw the allegations on Facebook by a NZ First person”
The Facebook page Letcher was referring to belongs to NZ First Youth leader Curwen Rolinson, who posted: “So apparently, the CNI Young Nats (and, assumedly, the NZ Young Nats) are buying up copies of Nicky Hager’s #DirtyPolitics . . . and burning them.”

Rumors EZ Rumors, but what else do we expect for the Loonie Left and their dirty tricks?



"Most of the above was Nicky Hagered by me"





I have no idea whether people have been buying this book to burn or not. nor do I care. My only comment is anyone who thinks they can burn books faster than a printing press can replace them is deluded. They should short-circuit the process by sending 50% of the money to the author and spending the other 50% advertising the book. that should achieve the same result.

elZorro
21-08-2014, 09:04 AM
I have no idea whether people have been buying this book to burn or not. nor do I care. My only comment is anyone who thinks they can burn books faster than a printing press can replace them is deluded. They should short-circuit the process by sending 50% of the money to the author and spending the other 50% advertising the book. that should achieve the same result.

No, FP, this sort of behaviour is understandable. We've had 6 years of propaganda from National, who steadily realised that once they had control of the information systems in NZ, they could feed spurious details to bloggers and the press and keep themselves clean. I couldn't understand why Labour didn't get there in 2011, when their policies were also better for most NZers, but they were being squashed in the press repeatedly. The Hager Book explains it.

National will deny as much as they can, try to stop the general public getting interested enough to read the details for themselves,delay, delay, delay. They had a good head start before the book came out, and it takes weeks for public sentiment to change, usually. It's a gamble they're prepared to take, no matter how evasive (smarmite) John Key looks.

Cuzzie
21-08-2014, 09:11 AM
No, FP, this sort of behaviour is understandable. We've had 6 years of propaganda from National, who steadily realised that once they had control of the information systems in NZ, they could feed spurious details to bloggers and the press and keep themselves clean. I couldn't understand why Labour didn't get there in 2011, when their policies were also better for most NZers, but they were being squashed in the press repeatedly. The Hager Book explains it.

National will deny as much as they can, try to stop the general public getting interested enough to read the details for themselves,delay, delay, delay. They had a good head start before the book came out, and it takes weeks for public sentiment to change, usually. It's a gamble they're prepared to take, no matter how evasive (smarmite) John Key looks.
Deluded, you post links of National Billboards defaced, you post a link about Nats burning fairy tail books which was incorrect and you talk about National propaganda. Learn what the word actually means and you will find out a lot about yourself in quicktime EZ. National gets on with running the country, Labour, the Greens, Internet/Mana and NZ First think up ways to B.S the public because they have nothing else to do.

winner69
21-08-2014, 09:14 AM
Bought tears tomy eyes

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11311849

Sgt Pepper
21-08-2014, 01:34 PM
I have no idea whether people have been buying this book to burn or not. nor do I care. My only comment is anyone who thinks they can burn books faster than a printing press can replace them is deluded. They should short-circuit the process by sending 50% of the money to the author and spending the other 50% advertising the book. that should achieve the same result.

Absolutely
If the "young nats" want to buy the book it is their property and they can destroy it if they wish to. If they want to buy more then they can contact mummy and daddy in Remuera to put more money on their credit cards. If they get bored with book burning they can always watch Fox News or read Mein Kampf again, or if they really want to be informed log go on to Whaleoil.

Sgt Pepper
21-08-2014, 01:45 PM
Reckon he'll get back in, W69?

Unfortunately yes. At 30years in Parliament he has finely honed survival instinct. His basic drive is to be, above all else, a cabinet minister. He is the political equivalent of a pet schnauzer, he is house trained, doesn't bark very often, and will be very loyal to anyone who feeds him on a regular basis and offers a comfortable home.

Snapper
21-08-2014, 01:46 PM
Absolutely
If the "young nats" want to buy the book it is their property and they can destroy it if they wish to. If they want to buy more then they can contact mummy and daddy in Remuera to put more money on their credit cards. If they get bored with book burning they can always watch Fox News or read Mein Kampf again, or if they really want to be informed log go on to Whaleoil.

Sounds like a load of crock to me. "According" to some bloke in another party and somebody they wouldn't identify!! If they did want to read Mein Kampf maybe they could borrow IMP's, oops, I mean dotcom's copy.

Sgt Pepper
21-08-2014, 01:56 PM
Sounds like a load of crock to me. "According" to some bloke in another party and somebody they wouldn't identify!! If they did want to read Mein Kampf maybe they could borrow IMP's, oops, I mean dotcom's copy.

Do you mean the copy he borrowed from Sir John Key?

Snapper
21-08-2014, 02:41 PM
Exactly, no surprises there as we all know what a progressive organisation the PPTA is.

Meanwhile in the real world...

Today's rejection of IES is less likely to be repeated at the secondary school level.

The Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA) has been working through detail of how the new roles would work with the government, and pushing for some changes.

Its executive has been supportive of IES, and negotiations are ongoing on the teaching roles associated with secondary schools.

Banksie
21-08-2014, 02:47 PM
Is there a tradition of left (or right) wing politics in the NZEI and PPTA or are they usually fairly unbiased?

Cuzzie
21-08-2014, 02:51 PM
Prime Minister John Key has emphatically restated he was not told of the SIS's intention to release sensitive documents to Whaleoil blogger Cameron Slater following the release today of two letters suggesting he was - and he can prove it.
Another beat up by dirty politics on steroids by Labour and the lefty losers. Who has had enough of this by the loonie left? Arhhh not me, they are slowly hanging themselves. Every attack is another shot in the foot to them. Why do you think John Key smiles so much. He knows - he knows they have not got a thing on him because he is clean unlike the dirty rotten ..... well, best not say. That's another thing, why should Key explain himself for Goff evil little plan anyway?


Oh yeah the link - Enjoy, I know I did. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11312309)

Sgt Pepper
21-08-2014, 03:52 PM
Prime Minister John Key has emphatically restated he was not told of the SIS's intention to release sensitive documents to Whaleoil blogger Cameron Slater following the release today of two letters suggesting he was - and he can prove it.
Another beat up by dirty politics on steroids by Labour and the lefty losers. Who has had enough of this by the loonie left? Arhhh not me, they are slowly hanging themselves. Every attack is another shot in the foot to them. Why do you think John Key smiles so much. He knows - he knows they have not got a thing on him because he is clean unlike the dirty rotten ..... well, best not say. That's another thing, why should Key explain himself for Goff evil little plan anyway?


Oh yeah the link - Enjoy, I know I did. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11312309)

Cuzzie


Could I ask your opinion on the following. IF National were not able to form a government. and I acknowledge you are optimistic they will, BUT if they couldn't who do you think will be most likely leader of the National Party?

Snapper
21-08-2014, 03:54 PM
One are that they have spent a lot more is early childhood and that's really just a consequence of increased participation rates (which they have been encouraging). I attended an early childhood panel discussion with all the major parties there and it was interesting seeing who got the most support. Labour, Greens and NZ first were all promising the earth and got a big cheer and National were a bit defensive. The person who made the most sense, though, was Colin Craig. A very thoughtful, intelligent man (on ECE, anyway! Pity about all the other lost causes he's championing).

elZorro
22-08-2014, 06:46 AM
Retailers are a bit of a bellwether for how things are going in NZ. Many are finding it tough at the moment. Are they too disorganised as a group?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/better-business/10408799/NZ-retailers-struggle-in-perfect-storm

Note that many consumers are short of free-spending cash. Surely an increase in the minimum pay (vote Labour) would help that. But retailers also need to complement their stores with an online presence. It doesn't have to be the same products or services that they have in the shop, but it's easy enough to monitor during the day, and you just never know what might happen over time.

Major von Tempsky
25-08-2014, 10:49 AM
Well it has now become exceedingly obvious that the hacker responsible for Nicky Hager's book and the dribbler of more emails is undoubtedly Kim.com.

He has the skills - he's just recited all his hacking exploits of the past including getting into the German Chancellors credit card, he has the motivation, he has the opportunity, he has the resources. It was also done via his platform.

The trouble for him is timing, that he is too greedy, he has gone off too early instead of 5 days before the election.

Nicky Hager is revealed not as a major player but a mere front and tool for Kim.com. It's also no wonder that the Labour Party has come out against Kim.com - he's a loose cannon, he'll do the same against the Labour Party unless they do precisely what he tells them, including saving him from extradition to stand trial for his crimes and stopping the legislation he is desperate to stop.

elZorro
25-08-2014, 07:38 PM
Here is a good summary of Labour policies contained in an opening address. It's obvious David Cunliffe is warm, sincere and very good at fronting the camera. He's like this in person too. In fact all of the front bench MPs in this video did well. I sure hope Labour wins, so we can get these policies going.

http://contribute.labour.org.nz/opening_address

slimwin
25-08-2014, 09:12 PM
To me it looks obvious he's smarmy. I can't imagine him swaying many votes with his personality. You may be just a little to close too the cause to see that EZ.

elZorro
26-08-2014, 06:14 AM
To me it looks obvious he's smarmy. I can't imagine him swaying many votes with his personality. You may be just a little too close to the cause to see that EZ.

That's the thing about propaganda, sure it is there from both sides, but National has spent a lot more effort on theirs, over a decade. So is he smarmy, or is he real?

fungus pudding
26-08-2014, 07:51 AM
That's the thing about propaganda, sure it is there from both sides, but National has spent a lot more effort on theirs, over a decade. So is he smarmy, or is he real?


He's smarmy, the opposite of real - a fraud. A real chameleon as he has demonstrated to many an audience.

Banksie
26-08-2014, 08:19 AM
He's smarmy, the opposite of real - a fraud. A real chameleon as he has demonstrated to many an audience.

Surely you understand that is just an opinion FP, based on biased reporting? I used to think he came across as a bit arrogant, but now I see him as more down to earth. Has he changed - doubt it - it is just the media spin.

Key - I used to thing he was a decent bloke, now I think he is duplicitous (trying to be nice here ;)), likewise I doubt the bloke has changed much.

I have met neither of them so cannot form an unbiased opinion.

...and I suspect to friends and family they are both great guys. There are very few people who wake up in the morning and get dressed thinking "I am going to be a right d1ck today".

Anyhow, we all seem to be caught in this cycle of voting for personality rather than policy.

fungus pudding
26-08-2014, 08:38 AM
Surely you understand that is just an opinion FP, based on biased reporting?



It's an opinion based on my observations. He changes stripes according to the audience and there is plenty of examples on youtube and the like. I'm not aware of biased reporting, or any reporting on Cunliffe other than polling results. I do know a few people who have commented in discussion along similar lines to me, but I also know some who don't like Key. That will always be so with political leaders but certainly at present Cunliffe is not popular with the majority. That is a statistical fact - not an opinion.
I don't accept your view that we all vote for personality. The likes of eZ for example would vote Labour regardless of leader and there are plenty of eZs around. Those like me who vote for policy are maybe in the minority but we exist.
I should add that personality is still a slight factor even when policy is the main factor. I don't think I could vote for Cunliffe no matter what he represented. I cringe at the thought of him representing NZ. So you might have a bit of a point. :D

slimwin
26-08-2014, 10:11 AM
For the record, I think all politicians are smarmy. DC is up there with the worst though. Something labour needed to address when picking a leader. Personality politics exists. They need realise they aren't going to change that and work with it.
Labour still has me with ONE promise but I'm still open to change.Gerry will get my electorate vote as I haven't heard anything from the other guys.

winner69
26-08-2014, 10:14 AM
I don't think David answered Guyon's question on the radio this morning - something like 'people just don't like you do they?'

Banksie
26-08-2014, 10:27 AM
Gerry will get my electorate vote as I haven't heard anything from the other guys.

That's a real pity slimwin, he is one of the few politicians I dislike (yeah I know, based on media stories :D).

I don't particularly like the way he has run the EQ stuff, but more than that what really upsets me is the way he comes across as a bully when things are not running his way.

A specific incident that got my goat was when he pooh-poohed the councils audit of the rebuild figures, promising an audit of the audit with in 14 days, then nothing. So what happened? Did his audit back the council, or did he decide it wasn't in our best interests to run the audit? Either way he was very verbal about pointing out what was wrong, and less verbal about reporting the results.

Slimwin, do you think that National have done the best they could for Chch? I am not so sure. In 2011 I was pleased with the initial response (and the promises), it was part of the reason National got my party vote that year, but now I am thinking they could have done better, and we should be further along with the rebuild.

slimwin
26-08-2014, 01:51 PM
I doubt anyone woul have done a great job of running the EQC stuff when you have a mix of insurance companies,councils and Govt. Plus home owners expectations of being first in line.

The bad stories make the news. I work in a very large company and those stories are the minority and some of the guys I know just aren't that realistic. Especially the ones from Brooklands.

It's very easy to look back and say things could be done better. I think national have a pass so far and the council a fail. Labour may also have got a pass but thats not possible to claim as truth.

fungus pudding
26-08-2014, 02:20 PM
I doubt anyone woul have done a great job of running the EQC stuff when you have a mix of insurance companies,councils and Govt. Plus home owners expectations of being first in line.

The bad stories make the news. I work in a very large company and those stories are the minority and some of the guys I know just aren't that realistic. Especially the ones from Brooklands.

It's very easy to look back and say things could be done better. I think national have a pass so far and the council a fail. Labour may also have got a pass but thats not possible to claim as truth.

One thing's for sure - no matter who is in power they would not be able to avoid criticism in such widespread chaos.

Harvey Specter
26-08-2014, 02:20 PM
The Govt put far more cash into Chch than they had to. So while they may not get an A+, it is definately not a fail. Maybe a B with a 'try harder next time' comment.

Banksie
26-08-2014, 02:48 PM
The Govt put far more cash into Chch than they had to. So while they may not get an A+, it is definately not a fail. Maybe a B with a 'try harder next time' comment.

I don't think it is the amount of money that is the issue, and as slimwin says there are plenty of good stories on the private housing front.

What doesn't feel good to me is the anchor projects. It seems that a vast amount of money is being invested in the big ticket items that we don't need right now like the stadium and the convention centre.

(http://cera.govt.nz/news/2013/crown-and-council-agree-recovery-costs-27-june-2013)

Kees
26-08-2014, 03:37 PM
Would you like to expand on the Brooklands bit or be more specific.

Bobcat.
26-08-2014, 03:46 PM
Here's how Colin Craig performs in a journalist 'hot seat':

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11309001

It's unlikely that Christine Rankin will win in Epsom, but even so, I can see this party having a greater presence this election. And National may well need more than only UF and Act as coalition partners...especially if Act don't perform well in Epsom.

fungus pudding
26-08-2014, 04:00 PM
Here's how Colin Craig performs in a journalist 'hot seat':

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11309001

It's unlikely that Christine Rankin will win in Epsom, but even so, I can see this party having a greater presence this election. And National may well need more than only UF and Act as coalition partners...especially if Act don't perform well in Epsom.

Without Epsom there is no Act. Without 5% voting there is no Conservative party. Act will do less harm than The Conservatives.

Bobcat.
26-08-2014, 05:00 PM
...Act will do less harm than The Conservatives.

Which of their policies do you see doing harm, FP? Please elaborate. Have you watched the interview?

fungus pudding
26-08-2014, 05:28 PM
Which of their policies do you see doing harm, FP? Please elaborate. Have you watched the interview?

They want to dispense with parole and there's little thought in that, and the binding referendums policy frightens me; particularly when they claim it's a bottom line. .

winner69
27-08-2014, 04:17 PM
like this
http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/71641/bernards-top-10-chinas-concrete-explosion-nzs-china-risks-problem-maximising-sharehold

craic
27-08-2014, 04:30 PM
Whew! No posts since yesterday - I was beginning to think that the left had given up and moved to Australia.

Major von Tempsky
27-08-2014, 05:14 PM
They've belatedly realized that Nicky Hager in tow to Kim.com is actually a disaster for the Left, that they would be subject to political blackmail if they got in. Also they are now reading the latest polls before they are published and realizing the major effect of Nicky Hager/Kim dot Com on the polls is to leave relative standings mostly unchanged but make the Conservatives more popular and NZ First a tad more popular.
So the results of the evil Hager/Dot Com campaign is to elect National on its own or in combo with UF, ACT and Conservatives with Maori Party still up the sleeve and NZF as well since he can't stand the Greens and has said he won't be in a government with them.

fungus pudding
27-08-2014, 06:01 PM
They've belatedly realized that Nicky Hager in tow to Kim.com is actually a disaster for the Left, that they would be subject to political blackmail if they got in. Also they are now reading the latest polls before they are published and realizing the major effect of Nicky Hager/Kim dot Com on the polls is to leave relative standings mostly unchanged but make the Conservatives more popular and NZ First a tad more popular.
So the results of the evil Hager/Dot Com campaign is to elect National on its own or in combo with UF, ACT and Conservatives with Maori Party still up the sleeve and NZF as well since he can't stand the Greens and has said he won't be in a government with them.


Unfortunately his silly policies like dropping GST on food and rates won't work, and he burbles about buying back sold shares - nonsense stuff, so it will take a fair few baubles for Winston. The rest of NZ First won't matter. Conservatives might be a better bet if they make it, but only if they come to their senses with policies - and they just might.

Sgt Pepper
27-08-2014, 06:58 PM
They've belatedly realized that Nicky Hager in tow to Kim.com is actually a disaster for the Left, that they would be subject to political blackmail if they got in. Also they are now reading the latest polls before they are published and realizing the major effect of Nicky Hager/Kim dot Com on the polls is to leave relative standings mostly unchanged but make the Conservatives more popular and NZ First a tad more popular.
So the results of the evil Hager/Dot Com campaign is to elect National on its own or in combo with UF, ACT and Conservatives with Maori Party still up the sleeve and NZF as well since he can't stand the Greens and has said he won't be in a government with them.

I know MVT. I think you are right National will probably return to the Treasury Benches, despite the revelations. However the real political drama for John Key will start after the election.

" and some that smile, have in their hearts, I fear, millions of mischiefs"

William Shakespeare _ Julius Caesar

I, anticipate the next three years will deliver an unparalleled political spectacle.

elZorro
27-08-2014, 09:34 PM
Another three years of National? I hope not. The press need to keep asking questions.

fungus pudding
27-08-2014, 09:36 PM
Another three years of National? I hope not.

But over 40% hope they do. Respect their wishes. :p:D:p:D

elZorro
28-08-2014, 06:19 AM
But over 40% hope they do. Respect their wishes. :p:D:p:D

I think I know some of the 40%, and they haven't thought very hard about it. There are also maybe 20% more who might not even bother to vote, and who should be exercising a leftie vote. These are people who identify with the phrase "Well, we're not National voters".

I heard John Key on a TV sound bite, again he's doing the Crosby-Textor thing, just seeding a little bit of doubt about Labour policy, but not directly coming up with a mistake or an issue with it (there probably isn't one), just seeding doubt. He's going to try and bluff his way through until the election.

Thanks for putting up the cartoon, W69. John Key looks a little precarious standing up there.

elZorro
28-08-2014, 06:49 AM
There won't be many in the provinces voting Labour, these are true-blue seats. I was travelling through one yesterday. Pale blue signs everywhere, but also some red Labour ones, a few Green ones (which are growing on me).

Massey University shows off some research work it's doing, pointing out that farmers are slowly moving towards cleaner waterways.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/opinion/10418694/How-are-farmers-keeping-rivers-clean

The Greens and Labour want this kind of work sped up. Many dairy farmers would say this depends on how much it costs, and that their income is limited by the milk payout. $6 kg this next year, by the sound of it. Higher than a running average.

Many farmers take a dim view of Labour, with its associated union involvement. Unions are set up, amongst other things, to provide support for individuals in the same work area in terms of conditions, pay, support in times of protest. Collectively the workers pay into this structure, knowing that it will be more effective than anything they could do by themselves. Why this is bad thing from the point of view of rural people, I'm not sure.

But I do know that dairy farmers formed their own co-operative, to bargain, support and auction for their collective income here and overseas, and they abide by the price-setting rules, after voting in delegates for a board. It's called Fonterra.

craic
28-08-2014, 09:14 AM
Probably the best quote around here for years. But I would alter it for politicians to read "all that smile" I just drove through Marewa, Napier and saw a small modern car completely painted in the Conservatives colours and logo with a very large Garth Mc Vicar on the sides and I honestly believe that he will surprise a lot of people in the Napier Electorate and gain a lot of party votes. 5% ? - maybe not this time but it could happen.
I know MVT. I think you are right National will probably return to the Treasury Benches, despite the revelations. However the real political drama for John Key will start after the election.

" and some that smile, have in their hearts, I fear, millions of mischiefs"

William Shakespeare _ Julius Caesar

I, anticipate the next three years will deliver an unparalleled political spectacle.

craic
28-08-2014, 09:30 AM
Someone is going to have to do a lot of spring-cleaning immediatly after the election. It might be the perfect opportunity for Inter-party cooperation. Start with the withdrawal of permanent residence from one German - he cannot claim refugee status. A really tough Hacking law seems appropriate, regardless of who was hacked this time and regardless of their high moral stance, hacking can and does precede all types of crime from money fraud to blackmail and it need to be subject to heavy penalties including asset freezing and asset stripping. All sorts of foreigners appear to be able to come here simply by waving wads of notes about. Today my crisis is my daughter, a Kiwi, cannot travel from London to Paris for a few days because she has lost her passport in Greece last Week. Its an Irish passport and they are a valuable commodity among criminals. I have to courier documents at great cost and even that will probably not be enough. Some scruff arrives here from some Eastern country without anything and they are still here years later.

slimwin
28-08-2014, 10:31 AM
Few boat loads of white fellas arrived here 200 years ago and still haven't gone home. :)

westerly
28-08-2014, 10:36 AM
Unfortunately his silly policies like dropping GST on food and rates won't work, and he burbles about buying back sold shares - nonsense stuff, so it will take a fair few baubles for Winston. The rest of NZ First won't matter. Conservatives might be a better bet if they make it, but only if they come to their senses with policies - and they just might.

Seems to work in Australia


Most basic foods, some education courses and some medical, health and care products and services are exempt from GST.
Things that are GST-free include:
most basic food
some education courses, course materials and related excursions or field trips
some medical, health and care services
some medical aids and appliances
some medicines
some childcare services
some religious services and charitable activities
supplies of accommodation and meals to residents of retirement villages by certain operators
cars for disabled people to use, as long as certain requirements are met
water, sewerage and drainage
international transport and related matters
precious metals
sales through duty-free shops
grants of land by government
farmland
international mail
exports
sales of businesses as going concerns
some telecommunications supplies
eligible emissions units.

westerly

fungus pudding
28-08-2014, 10:57 AM
Seems to work in Australia


Most basic foods, some education courses and some medical, health and care products and services are exempt from GST.
Things that are GST-free include:
most basic food
some education courses, course materials and related excursions or field trips
some medical, health and care services
some medical aids and appliances
some medicines
some childcare services
some religious services and charitable activities
supplies of accommodation and meals to residents of retirement villages by certain operators
cars for disabled people to use, as long as certain requirements are met
water, sewerage and drainage
international transport and related matters
precious metals
sales through duty-free shops
grants of land by government
farmland
international mail
exports
sales of businesses as going concerns
some telecommunications supplies
eligible emissions units.

westerly

NZ has the best system in the world - undeniable.

craic
28-08-2014, 12:07 PM
Seen Quantas lately? GST free and 5 billion in debt. Air NZ raking it in and giving better service internationally. On the Auckland City Council reports of today (up the creek with lots of paddles, but only Len Brown knows how they work) Maybe we could lend him to Qantas in particular and Australia in general for a dacade or two

Banksie
28-08-2014, 01:46 PM
Seen Quantas lately? GST free and 5 billion in debt. Air NZ raking it in and giving better service internationally.

Is this a plug against the privatization of airlines?

craic
28-08-2014, 05:00 PM
Have had quite a few trans Tasman trips and when something goes wrong in airports, the usual comment from airport staff is "F#### Quantas again "whento the casual Kiwi traveller the luggage carousel has broken down.

westerly
28-08-2014, 05:26 PM
NZ has the best system in the world - undeniable.

From whose point of view?

westerly

fungus pudding
28-08-2014, 05:51 PM
From whose point of view?

westerly

Almost every other country or their finance ministers. It is widely quoted as the best model specifically for its no exemptions simplicity; I'm sure you are well aware of that if you are interested enough to ask, so I'm left wondering why you did ask. :confused: But please don't explain. ;)

slimwin
28-08-2014, 06:50 PM
Who can trust what dot com the convict has to say. And Hager will always protect his 'source'.
I think nz will be sick of this by then and have made their minds up.

elZorro
28-08-2014, 07:58 PM
Dotcom said he had nothing to do with Hager's book.
Hager has said that Dotcom was not the leaker.

And come the 15th of Sept at the Cloud in Auckland we'll see what Dotcom has got on Key.

My minimum guess is that it'll be proof that Key was lying when he said he had no idea idea who Kim was until the day before the KDC maision was illegially raided.. (That was unbelievable at the time and is even more unbelievable in light of Hager's book.) Alas, I fear that minimum guess will be optimistic and I fear (for national supporters) it'll be far worse. There are some very principled people in our inteligence services and I'm sure they'll be acting in NZ's best interests.

Welcome back Belgarion. Nice straight post first up.

I have found this survey on people's opinions after the Nicky Hager book. http://www.horizonpoll.co.nz/attachments/docs/horizon-research-political-conduct-survey-repo.pdf That's a big swing, and more to the Greens than anything. What did you think of the Leader's debate? If the website was down and you had to pay 75c for texts to pass on who you thought won the debate, I wonder which side that would favour? Feels like a jack-up to me.

Cuzzie
28-08-2014, 08:47 PM
Dotcom said he had nothing to do with Hager's book.
Hager has said that Dotcom was not the leaker.

And come the 15th of Sept at the Cloud in Auckland we'll see what Dotcom has got on Key.

My minimum guess is that it'll be proof that Key was lying when he said he had no idea idea who Kim was until the day before the KDC maision was illegially raided.. (That was unbelievable at the time and is even more unbelievable in light of Hager's book.) Alas, I fear that minimum guess will be optimistic and I fear (for national supporters) it'll be far worse. There are some very principled people in our inteligence services and I'm sure they'll be acting in NZ's best interests.
No surprises there, you back a hacker being one yourself as stated by you when you gloated you had all my details by hacking me and then you lie about it just like Hagar. Yep good straight up first post back alright, as straight as a Labour politician visiting Georgina Beyer in Cuba St back in the 80s. BTW, Great first up win to Key in the first debate but Cunliffe did well I must admit. Cunliffe has got very good debating skills, nobody can take that away from him. When Key gets interrupted consistently he has got to learn to raise his voice. No need to go down to Cunliffes level, but don't let your opponent overrun you like that. If it was based on debating skills alone then Cunliffe won tonight, but that is as good as it gets right there. D.C talks the talk but J.K walks the talk in action and there is no place for Cunliffe to hide as loud as he tries to stop Key pointing it out.

EZ win for Key tonight, a clear winner by a country mile, who is surprised?

Cuzzie
28-08-2014, 08:49 PM
National 50.7 (up 0.7)
Labour 24.1 (down 1.1)
Greens 11.4 (down 2.3)
NZ First 5 (up 0.7)
Maori Party 1 (up 0.3)
Internet Mana 3.4 (up 1.3)
Conservatives 3.3 (up 0.7)
Act 0.3 (down 0.3)
United Future 0.2 (down 0.2)

PREFERRED PRIME MINISTER (compared with last week)
John Key 67.8 (up 3)
David Cunliffe 11.6 (down 2.8)
Winston Peters 8.2 (up 3.1)
Russel Norman 3.8 (up 0.3)

Hagar who?

elZorro
29-08-2014, 05:57 AM
No surprises there, you back a hacker being one yourself as stated by you when you gloated you had all my details by hacking me and then you lie about it just like Hagar. Yep good straight up first post back alright, as straight as a Labour politician visiting Georgina Beyer in Cuba St back in the 80s. BTW, Great first up win to Key in the first debate but Cunliffe did well I must admit. Cunliffe has got very good debating skills, nobody can take that away from him. When Key gets interrupted consistently he has got to learn to raise his voice. No need to go down to Cunliffes level, but don't let your opponent overrun you like that. If it was based on debating skills alone then Cunliffe won tonight, but that is as good as it gets right there. D.C talks the talk but J.K walks the talk in action and there is no place for Cunliffe to hide as loud as he tries to stop Key pointing it out.

EZ win for Key tonight, a clear winner by a country mile, who is surprised?

Axsually, at the end of the day, most polls on the debate placed the win with David Cunliffe, Cuzzie.

iceman
29-08-2014, 06:51 AM
Axsually, at the end of the day, most polls on the debate placed the win with David Cunliffe, Cuzzie.

That should stop Labour's contnuous slide in ALL polls, heading for the teens. Personally I found the debate rather boring and uninformative and neither Leader did much for me.

fungus pudding
29-08-2014, 06:54 AM
That should stop Labour's contnuous slide in ALL polls, heading for the teens. Personally I found the debate rather boring and uninformative and neither Leader did much for me.

Agree and Hosking did even less.

elZorro
29-08-2014, 07:11 AM
The Herald on the debate: that was a good, true quip by Cunliffe, on the rock star economy:


"We seem to have missed, for many people, the party, and we're going straight to the hangover"

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11315764

Cuzzie
29-08-2014, 08:28 AM
Axsually, at the end of the day, most polls on the debate placed the win with David Cunliffe, Cuzzie.
Axsually[sic] the only two that really count EZ are the ones that give a "New Zealand wide opinion" and they are[at this point in time]:Stuff.co.nz which is collectivly the following; The Dominion , The Press, Waitako Times, Auckland Now, The Southland Times, Taranaki Daily News, Manawatu Standard, Nelson Mail, Marlborough Express & The Timaru Herald had Key winning by 51% to 44% That covers most of the country.


The most important poll of course is the real time poll given by TV1as the debate happened live. TV1 had Key the clear winner by 69% to 31%. TV1 covers all of N.Z

I did go looking for these "most polls" as quoted by you and only found only one:The NZ Herald had Cunliffe 52% to 45% winner. The Herald only includes Auckland, Northland, Hawkes Bay & The Bay of Plenty with their add on newspapers.


As I said, Cunliffe is a good debater, but you need to be when you are on the negative side. Key needs to lift his game and not let bully tactics over ride him. Biggest B.S and a great source of laughter my end was when Cunliffe actually said to Key, "You have had your say, know it's mine". Perhaps the M.H needs to be more forceful in the next debate so we can here both sides of the story, which is why Cunliffe over-talks Key so much of course

Joshuatree
29-08-2014, 08:35 AM
Yes most commentors gave it to Cunliffe and one observed that if a foreigner had watched he/she would have assumed cunliffe was the prime minister.

Cuzzie
29-08-2014, 09:03 AM
Yes most commentors gave it to Cunliffe and one observed that if a foreigner had watched he/she would have assumed cunliffe was the prime minister.
Joshuatree, please read the poll results again. Key was the clear winner, but I'm enjoying your propaganda thou, carry on.:)

Cuzzie
29-08-2014, 09:14 AM
Yes I enjoyed that too. It was when Key had been blathering on - to the point he sounded like he'd got himself lost - And Cunliffe rescued him. The look on Key's face suggested he was actually grateful.Now see that is what I'm talking about, the loonie left always try to flip the truth. We all know how over the top D.C was with his interrupting now belg says that. Just like their "Positive" slogin, we all know it is the opposite of that. Just imagine if both leaders got time to say what they stand for without M.H & D.C squawking like seagulls all night? I think Cunliffe would actually be left wondering what to say!!!

Cuzzie
29-08-2014, 09:29 AM
There's some interesting metrics in there.

And I have to apologise to some National party supporters. Clearly some have a far better moral compass than I gave them credit for.

Based on the Judith Collins questions in the survey, I suspect that the defining point for many in the leaders debate last night would have been where DC unequivocally said that if he were PM Judith would be out. Then JK blathered on trying to justify his (untenable) position which sounded a little insincere, and, once JK had finished blathering, DC unequivocally said, again, that if he were PM Judith would be out. That is clear difference between the two and it would have resonated with many.Looks like those who voted realtime as the debate happened disagree with your findings belg, Key got 70 in every 100 votes. Maybe the "Rose tinted glasses" saying fits you aptly here. The stats suggest so for sure.

Cuzzie
29-08-2014, 10:03 AM
We'll see Cuz. We'll see ... The world keeps spinning and no amount vitriol from you or me, or statistically unsound polls, will stop it.
Speaking of polls, I don't like this one, far too many red dots.


Predicting the next Parliament. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/interactives/polling/?label=Stuff+%2F+Ipsos+Poll)

Bobcat.
29-08-2014, 12:28 PM
Speaking of polls, I don't like this one, far too many red dots.


Predicting the next Parliament. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/interactives/polling/?label=Stuff+%2F+Ipsos+Poll)

Don't you find it interesting that the editors and other liberal social engineers at the Dominion Post / Stuff have chosen in this set of predictions to play down and/or completely ignore the Conservative Party (which is now polling just under 5% - not 2.7% as misleadingly stated by Stuff), and yet meanwhile see fit to make mention in their analysis the Mana-Internet, United Future, Act and Maori parties.

Their bias is showing. Clearly they want us to think that the Conservatives are a lost cause (and want us to join them in despising them) ...well I don't think so. Political analysis like this is nothing short of an insult to voter intelligence.

iceman
29-08-2014, 12:41 PM
Lucy Lawless absolutely nails it ...

Lucy Lawless: Much ado about nothing? I think not (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11315741)

And BTW, if you haven't read the book but are trying to defend people in it, you just look stupid. (Key's read it now too apparently.)

I'd suggest any people attempting any defence of the people in Nicky Hager's "Dirty Politics: How attack politics is poisoning New Zealand's political environment" quote something from the afterword to demonstrate they are coming from an informed position.

Are you saying that unless one reads highly biased leftwing propaganda based on STOLEN material, one is ill-informed and should not comment on politics of the day ?
Personally I wouldn't give a toss about what Lucy Lawless, Nicky Hager, or Cameron Slater for that matter, have to say about anything, as it will not have any influence on me forming a view on anything. I suppose that makes me ill informed in your eyes Belg !

Banksie
29-08-2014, 12:47 PM
Don't you find it interesting that the editors and other liberal social engineers at the Dominion Post / Stuff have chosen in this set of predictions to play down and/or completely ignore the Conservative Party (which is now polling just under 5% - not 2.7% as misleadingly stated by Stuff), and yet meanwhile see fit to make mention in their analysis the Mana-Internet, United Future, Act and Maori parties.

Their bias is showing. Clearly they want us to think that the Conservatives are a lost cause (and want us to join them in despising them) ...well I don't think so. Political analysis like this is nothing short of an insult to voter intelligence.

This is just not true bobcat, three stories talking about the conservatives.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/polls/10430438/Conservatives-within-reach-of-Parliament-poll
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11315119
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11315586

And the ipsos poll showed 2.7% while the 3news-reid poll showed 4.6% - and both are correct.

I think you are imagining a conspiracy that is not there.

Bobcat.
29-08-2014, 12:53 PM
And the ipsos poll showed 2.7% while the 3news-reid poll showed 4.6% - and both are correct.

I think you are imagining a conspiracy that is not there.

If what you say is correct, then can you explain how 2.7% and 4.6% can both be correct, Banksie. The IPSOS poll is dated 27 August.

And yes, those links you provided have Stuff reporting a Conservative Party rise in the polls, but too simplistically (naively or mischievously?) attributing it solely to the fallout from Hagar's 'dirty politics', which again is not giving credit where credit's due:

Colin Craig does not think the party was picking up votes in any fallout from Dirty Politics. "I think the biggest impact is that our second brochure, which has gone out to every household in New Zealand, has arrived. It hit last weekend."

Craig is more likely to be right than those writers for Stuff pretending to be investigative journalists.

I don't agree with everything that Craig and his party are promoting but I do value balanced investigative journalism. Unfortunately in this country that we know and love, there is dirty politics practised by liberal social manipulator journo's and editors via their news outlets, as much, or more so, than those inside the main parties targeted by Hagar.

fungus pudding
29-08-2014, 12:58 PM
Can you then explain how 2.7% and 4.6% can both be correct, Banksie? The IPSOS poll is dated 27 August.

The Herald poll had them at 3.3% so that's about the average and probably nearest the mark. I doubt they'll hit 5%, or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part. :confused:

Banksie
29-08-2014, 01:01 PM
Can you then explain how 2.7% and 4.6% can both be correct, Banksie? The IPSOS poll is dated 27 August.


I am not really sure how to respond...you do know how a poll works right, you phone up 1000 people and ask them what they think. So running a different sample of 1000 will produce different results.

On the small sample sizes that they are doing for these polls they are not particularly accurate, that's why they all come with an accuracy statement e.g. 3.5% margin of error.

Edit: Here is the accuracy statement from the Ipsos poll,

Our poll provides a maximum sampling error of +/-3.1%-point, at the 95% confidence level. This means we can be 95% confident that the survey results are within 3.1% of the result had we surveyed the entire population of the NZ population, when the analysis is based on all respondents surveyed.

Sgt Pepper
29-08-2014, 03:18 PM
Do you or other posters have any thoughts on the Winston Peters disclosure regarding an unsolicited offer by someone representing Judith Collins that they do a deal after the election. Does it have any credibility or is it Winston fantasising? Would Judith Collins be that stupid?

fungus pudding
29-08-2014, 03:41 PM
Do you or other posters have any thoughts on the Winston Peters disclosure regarding an unsolicited offer by someone representing Judith Collins that they do a deal after the election. Does it have any credibility or is it Winston fantasising? Would Judith Collins be that stupid?

I have no idea how stupid she is. She certainly doesn't appeal to me as an MP. The thing that puzzles me is, if it is true, why didn't Peter's come out with this when he claimed that he had evidence that would bury her once and for all, then stuffed it up in parliament with an incoherent ramble (flu we were told). If he wanted to see her dumped, that was his chance. A very peculiar story. I'd certainly give the benefit of any doubt to Collins in this case. If Peters is right, he will name the contact within a day or so. Anyway, if she was plotting to overthrow Key, the last person she would approach, either directly or indirectly would be Winston First.

Joshuatree
29-08-2014, 03:54 PM
Is it not well known that Judith Collins was a PM in waiting(impatiently) in her own mind, power hungry like her fellow MP Winston. Id be surprised at it being an outright lie but interpretation rather stretched maybe.

elZorro
29-08-2014, 09:12 PM
Is it not well known that Judith Collins was a PM in waiting(impatiently) in her own mind, power hungry like her fellow MP Winston. Id be surprised at it being an outright lie but interpretation rather stretched maybe.

I thought it was hilarious that on TV tonight, Judith Collins said she'd have nothing to do with Winston anyway, and then John Key said that they could work with Winston's party. It's looking more and more like NZ First will be on the cross-benches or working with a Labour/Greens coalition.

Cuzzie
29-08-2014, 09:36 PM
I thought it was hilarious that on TV tonight, Judith Collins said she'd have nothing to do with Winston anyway, and then John Key said that they could work with Winston's party. It's looking more and more like NZ First will be on the cross-benches or working with a Labour/Greens coalition.Oh, you are so on to it EZ ... not. If blue was cool EZ you would be red hot....NOT:eek::eek::ohmy:

Cuzzie
29-08-2014, 09:43 PM
Here is the latest from http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/, Cam is turning into a soft cocket. Maybe Cam is still jetlagged, somebody needs to harden him up a bit.

slimwin
29-08-2014, 10:40 PM
Just back from the pub cuzzie?

iceman
30-08-2014, 07:15 AM
Yes it would.

Luckily for the rest of us, your biased and one eyed view is shared by only a very small minority of voters.

Cuzzie
30-08-2014, 07:51 AM
Just back from the pub cuzzie?I don't do pubs slimwin, my point was - EZ is so one eyed he must be EZ to spot in downtown Hamilton. He'd be the one with the red eye patch on. Everything EZ says lately is 100% Labour 0% for the rest. More balance is needed in his posts, just saying that's all.
With regards to C.S, I would be going off my rocker right now if I was him & he isn't. Why is that? Maybe legal advice, maybe claim before the storm. Here is a thought, Labour win the election, which I don't dismiss one bit BTW & then the published KDC/Hagar stolen emails goes to court. Not sure if the election result could be overturned or not, but and I'm only saying "but", that is a big possibility. Just imagine the cost to the taxpayers and just imagine how the second election results could go. I don't want to go there & I'm sure most voters don't want to entertain that thought either.

elZorro
30-08-2014, 09:10 AM
Here's a Nicky Hager interview. MVT might have been more than a bit incorrect, when he said that Nicky is a spoilt rich kid. I hope Nicky sells heaps of his books.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11316298

More and more press articles are coming out, showing a steady move away from National, across to the Greens and Labour. As Mike Williams said recently, it only needs a small change to put National on the skids.

I agree with Belgarion and many others who commented on the Lucy lawless article. It's well written, to the point. We need to stop this attack on NZ's democracy. One of the other points is that the press are riled up about how they've been fed rubbish. They won't let the politicians get away with controlling their written and verbal output.

Remember Nicky Hager also helped launch a worldwide investigation into tax havens? A series of articles from his website, many of which appeared in the SST. Interesting reading.

http://www.nickyhager.info/category/tax-havens/

Sgt Pepper
30-08-2014, 10:11 AM
So what options does John Key have regarding Judith Collins??

Winston is adamant that an approach was made, and is talking about signing affidavits etc, Judith Collins denies it.
This would be my approach and is not beyond the realms of possibility

An urgent meeting would be arranged and the following would be put forward
1. Judith Collins has become an electoral liability, and to this end I would require her to stand down as that national candidate for Papakura.
2. The word would go out for National Party supporters in Papakura to vote for the Conservative Party candidate.
3.In exchange for an exit from the political stage there would be inducements
a) there is no possibility of a return to Cabinet post September 20th
b) a choice of diplomatic appointments next year would be offered
Washington- with effect from next year, as Mike Moore is nearing the end of his tenure.
London: Lockwood Smith would be encouraged to move on, if not removed to enable Judith Collins to take over, on the proviso she relinquish the post to enable John key to be appointed to it in early 2017.

If none of these interest her then appointments to SOEs would be offered etc, Chairperson Of Genesis comes to mind as Jenny Shipley has been chairman for too long

Cuzzie
30-08-2014, 10:27 AM
So what options does John Key have regarding Judith Collins??

Winston is adamant that an approach was made, and is talking about signing affidavits etc, Judith Collins denies it.
This would be my approach and is not beyond the realms of possibility

An urgent meeting would be arranged and the following would be put forward
1. Judith Collins has become an electoral liability, and to this end I would require her to stand down as that national candidate for Papakura.
2. The word would go out for National Party supporters in Papakura to vote for the Conservative Party candidate.
3.In exchange for an exit from the political stage there would be inducements
a) there is no possibility of a return to Cabinet post September 20th
b) a choice of diplomatic appointments next year would be offered
Washington- with effect from next year, as Mike Moore is nearing the end of his tenure.
London: Lockwood Smith would be encouraged to move on, if not removed to enable Judith Collins to take over, on the proviso she relinquish the post to enable John key to be appointed to it in early 2017.

If none of these interest her then appointments to SOEs would be offered etc, Chairperson Of Genesis comes to mind as Jenny Shipley has been chairman for too long
Winston Peters is known for telling many porkpies and I would say full onus is on him to prove himself or not as I think the case may be. Show us what you have got Winston.

Cuzzie
30-08-2014, 10:36 AM
Don't you find it interesting that the editors and other liberal social engineers at the Dominion Post / Stuff have chosen in this set of predictions to play down and/or completely ignore the Conservative Party (which is now polling just under 5% - not 2.7% as misleadingly stated by Stuff), and yet meanwhile see fit to make mention in their analysis the Mana-Internet, United Future, Act and Maori parties.

Their bias is showing. Clearly they want us to think that the Conservatives are a lost cause (and want us to join them in despising them) ...well I don't think so. Political analysis like this is nothing short of an insult to voter intelligence.
I agree, the Conservatives do seem to be getting dault a raw deal here. I like what they stand for and what they could offer. You don't have to be a Christian to like who they are, what they are saying and how they go about representing themselves.
Maybe there might be a deal with the ECB electorate, that would be nice. M.C would still get in. Makes sense to me and it makes it just a little bit harder for the loonie left to gain power.
I like that, I like it a lot. Win, win, win.:)

fungus pudding
30-08-2014, 10:44 AM
National going from strength to strength.

:t_up: :t_up: :t_up:

Well done Mr. Key. :) :)

Sgt Pepper
30-08-2014, 10:52 AM
Breaking News

12.30 : John Key will be announcing Judith Collins resignation.

(PS I still don't resile from my post prediction some time ago that John Key will resign in late 2016/early 2017. Should he lose on September 20th then he will go by next February.

fungus pudding
30-08-2014, 11:08 AM
Breaking News

12.30 : John Key will be announcing Judith Collins resignation.

(PS I still don't resile from my post prediction some time ago that John Key will resign in late 2016/early 2017.

Of course. He will want to rejuvenate the leadership of the party at that stage so they can have a forth, fifth and sixth term. Long live National.

Sgt Pepper
30-08-2014, 11:27 AM
Of course. He will want to rejuvenate the leadership of the party at that stage so they can have a forth, fifth and sixth term. Long live National.

Why not FP
John Key could declare himself King. Let me think of a suitable title,Hmm how about King John the Duplicitous. Gerry could be Court Jester and Bill English could help with the big words. Oh hang on , no he couldn't because he is "a little bit republican". Well President John the Duplicitous.

fungus pudding
30-08-2014, 11:29 AM
Why not FP
John Key could declare himself King. Let me think of a suitable title,Hmm how about King John the Duplicitous. Gerry could be Court Jester and Bill English could help with the big words. Oh hang on , no he couldn't because he is "a little bit republican". Well President John the Duplicitous.

No no. You don't understand. They will do it by winning elections.

elZorro
30-08-2014, 11:34 AM
What, does this mean that some or all of the "Dirty Politics" book is real?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11316644

Great news for Labour, that is not going to help National get more votes, but it might slow the shedding of support for the right. Big coverage from TV1 at the moment, it's been on for over an hour. (12-30 to 1.30)

Here is a selection of comments in picture form, from the lefties.

ari
30-08-2014, 12:56 PM
National going from strength to strength.


Yep....but the next one (1 week out) with Dotcom will be a doozy........linking Key to the FBI raid!

fungus pudding
30-08-2014, 01:01 PM
Yep....but the next one (1 week out) with Dotcom will be a doozy........linking Key to the FBI raid!

What FBI raid had anything to do with Key ??

winner69
30-08-2014, 01:09 PM
78% of those polled say Crusher should resign as MP

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11316644

Sgt Pepper
30-08-2014, 06:30 PM
What FBI raid had anything to do with Key ??

Thats right FP

John Key had absolutely no knowledge of the pending raid, as he has reiterated on many occasions, not only that he had never even heard of Kim Dot Com prior to his arrest. Thus we should take him at his word. Unless evidence is presented otherwise, because if it is and he has lied to Parliament???? then he is in a LOT of trouble and in comparison Pinnochhio will seem like Mother Theresa

fungus pudding
31-08-2014, 07:44 AM
Thats right FP

John Key had absolutely no knowledge of the pending raid, as he has reiterated on many occasions, not only that he had never even heard of Kim Dot Com prior to his arrest. Thus we should take him at his word. Unless evidence is presented otherwise, because if it is and he has lied to Parliament???? then he is in a LOT of trouble and in comparison Pinnochhio will seem like Mother Theresa

You could be right. But I still want to know about the FBI raid.

Sgt Pepper
31-08-2014, 11:18 AM
Seems the email about Feeley may be the smokescreen for even worse to come ...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10440930/Complaint-turns-up-heat-on-Collins

Belg
This whole issue is rapidly getting worse,on a daily basis revelations of alleged collusion, corruption, deliberate attempts to smear and undermine a senior judicial public servant to undertake an investigation into a major finance company collapse. I am reading all this stuff, and stop and think is this actually happening in New Zealand?
Its appalling, and there is much much more to come

elZorro
31-08-2014, 11:38 AM
Belg
This whole issue is rapidly getting worse,on a daily basis revelations of alleged collusion, corruption, deliberate attempts to smear and undermine a senior judicial public servant to undertake an investigation into a major finance company collapse. I am reading all this stuff, and stop and think is this actually happening in New Zealand?
Its appalling, and there is much much more to come

You know what I think? This started years ago for National, with an idea probably from Crosby-Textor, pinched from USA politics, of using blog sites for the messy work, while keeping the politicians relatively clean in the eyes of the public. It worked so well for John Key and Co, that they got more brazen with it. Having participants documenting stuff on emails, has proved their undoing. I bet at first, it was all verbal.

fungus pudding
31-08-2014, 12:02 PM
You know what I think? This started years ago for National, with an idea probably from Crosby-Textor, pinched from USA politics, of using blog sites for the messy work, while keeping the politicians relatively clean in the eyes of the public. It worked so well for John Key and Co, that they got more brazen with it. Having participants documenting stuff on emails, has proved their undoing. I bet at first, it was all verbal.

Emails are verbal.

Cuzzie
31-08-2014, 12:16 PM
By ensuring Collins' resigned as Minister of justice? .... She's still standing as an MP!

Key still looks weak, a bad judge of character and beholden to Crusher? Only the NZH's John Armstrong and yourself cab spin this as good for National! A weak leader and a corrupt party in disarray! Just remember, this weak leader you talk about easily dispatched a corrupt Helen Clark and his current opposite, one David Cunliffe is so popular only 10 voters in every 100 want him as P.M. Sometimes you have got to wonder what kind of Gaga-land some people live in.

Cuzzie
31-08-2014, 02:11 PM
Below is a letter to the Herald and is 100% spot on. Why do we put up with this cr@p from the loonie left?


To the chief reporter:

I have been running my business for the last four years. It has grown to the extent that I was planning to advertise in the Herald to try its effectiveness. We had also used one of your six week trials with the view of subscribing.

However I have become deeply disturbed to see once again the media are using underhanded tactics to sabotage National’s election chances. First we had Hager’s fantasy novel “the hollow men”, then we had the super snoopers where TV3 taped casual conversations and tried to derail them, then the tea pot tapes and now “Dirty Politics”.

The tea pot tapes were disturbing because even though there was little interest and they were not an important election issue, they were headline news for days. Hager’s latest nonsense book (as with “the hollow men”) has not been subject to any media investigation to see what is really true and what is just conjecture, it has simply been accepted as gospel. Are you satisfied with this standard of journalism?

This may not be so bad except such underhanded tactics are NEVER used on Labour or the Greens. The media only does it to National.

I really don’t care about dirty politics, I care about policy. You would have to be incredibly naive to think Labour and the Greens don’t participate in the same activity as shown in “Dirty Politics” (billboards are a most visible example). So I don’t understand why you think it is appropriate to pick on National to the total exclusion of the other parties. As an aside, I have been told by three sources the media are well informed of who the donors of DC’s leadership bid are and that it is explosive, but they will not publish it for fear of looking like they are picking on Labour. Is this true?

As a businessman, I want to know what policies can help my business and therefore my employees. Quite frankly the thought of a Labour/Greens/Mana coalition is terrifying. Your coverage (or should I say absence of coverage) of what is really important is perplexing and deeply disturbing.

The Herald is giving the impression you do not represent what decent NZ’ers want from their fourth estate. Because of this, I will not be advertising with you. Further, I won’t subscribe to your service.

The Herald has until quite recently been the paper of record, universally respected by all. I genuinely hope to see you reach the outstanding standards of yesteryear again.

Yours sincerely

Jason McNulty

JBmurc
31-08-2014, 03:39 PM
Outside the odd billboard round you wouldn't think there was an election in 3 weeks ....just pure dirty politics we can't bet them on policy or facts lets just go on , and on , and on about issues that aren't really that important for the national population ...yet we are spoon feed how bad it is ....... and told how we should vote to get rid of the big bad wolf

Cuzzie
31-08-2014, 03:56 PM
Cut and pasted from whaleoil's site I see Cuzz. Great source of news, unbiased opinion and fact is that site. ;) Do you think Jason is a real person? Or perhaps a figment of Slater's diseased mind? ;)Cool, I know it must be for you belg, because I didn't mention it was Whale Oil, but you just did. Read there often belg? Why would Jason not be a real person, the message is bang on?
This is also cool: PM summoned to hearing (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11316940)


At least we will know the truth before the election, that wont be good for Labour. :)

Cuzzie
31-08-2014, 04:28 PM
LOL ...Why indeed? .... (ROTFLMAO!)Keep that up and you're in danger of becoming a ROTFLMAOTARD. Didn't think you would like the reply and I guess I was right. Why indeed, because that is obvious unless you see things through dirty left eyes.

elZorro
31-08-2014, 04:49 PM
Remember what happened last time you two.. Cuzzie, you rise to the bait too easily.

I have just had to lend out my Hager books again. People want to be more informed.

Joshuatree
31-08-2014, 05:19 PM
Wow this is getting deeper and something smells all the way up to the PM's office at least; unbelievable, and shocking. More and more will find themselves on the moving hook even those that think they are safe/hidden and anyone with any connection to BigSea Elephant Grease will be exposed . To think tax payers money may have been used is sickening.

GTM 3442
31-08-2014, 05:58 PM
Wow this is getting deeper and something smells all the way up to the PM's office at least; unbelievable, and shocking. More and more will find themselves on the moving hook even those that think they are safe/hidden and anyone with any connection to BigSea Elephant Grease will be exposed . To think tax payers money may have been used is sickening.

Or am I missing something?

Here, NZ political news is not always covered as comprehensively a one might like.

The subject of a SFO investigation pays a PR consultant, who then pays some bloggers who then write blogposts critical of the CEO of the SFO.

The Minister of Justice (responsible for the SFO) then provides further information to the blogger(s) for them to use in their postings.

And this surfaces in the middle of an election campaign.

And the Minister of Justice then resigns.

Just what is going on, in the South Pacific Banana Republic of New Zealand?

Can someone please tell me I have misunderstood something, or bridge the gaps for me?

elZorro
31-08-2014, 07:26 PM
The NZ voter has realised that concepts like fairness, integrity, honour, openness, truth, honesty, compassion, due process, etc are, in fact, very, very valid election issues.

They thought their govt was behaving correctly. Now they know these values have been placed secondary to a single party's lust for dominance and they've been manipulated.

Until these values are restored ... This is what this election will be about.

Without such values being reflected by our government then all other issues take the back seat. Why? Simple. There will be no trust between voters and government.

Those calling for a return to debating "policy" are, for the most part, like Cuzzie: trying to do whatever they can to pretend that concepts like fairness, integrity, honour, openness, truth, honesty, compassion, due process, etc are less important than they actually are.

Cuzzie, and others like MVT, are the last to talk about policy, it's more like whether someone looks "shifty", or repeating other snippets that the blog sites instilled in people's shallow thinking. I'll know Labour will win by a landslide if some of my relatives change long-held opinions. But even a gentle slide to the left will work at the end of the day.

GTM 3442
31-08-2014, 08:11 PM
Thank you for the interpretation and analysis, gentlemen, but mine was an honest question. Have I missed something, or is the situation as I described ?

Sorry to be pedantic, but as a seeker after truth and knowledge. . .

elZorro
31-08-2014, 09:05 PM
I have a very dear relative who will probably always vote National. She thinks that John Key looks tired and should have a holiday. While I doubt that will happen this side of the election, I tend to agree with her. He looks tired, unsure of himself, more ordinary.

GTM 3442
31-08-2014, 10:20 PM
GTM, your synopsis above is of a single event that occurred in the last day or so. Taken in isolation it looks trivial if you're truly have been way from the news. And if you wish to trivialise each event by taking each in isolation and pretending they're unrelated, then fine. But if you truly want to see these events as a pattern, as a seeker after truth and knowledge, then I suggest you spend $35 and read Hager's book. Or, if the book may take too long to reach you, you could go back about 4 months on this thread and follow what makes many in NZ so angry ... There are plenty of links from some of us and our commentary that goes with it ... ;)

Oh Belgarion!

I don't know how you can characterise this as trivial. It has ramifications in all sorts of directions. It's absolutely terrifying!

This has the potential to be a game-changer, and to lose National the election.

Or, they may do a Richard Nixon (1972) and win the election then lose the government.

I'm not sure which would be worse!

GTM 3442
31-08-2014, 10:21 PM
GTM, your synopsis above is of a single event that occurred in the last day or so. Taken in isolation it looks trivial if you're truly have been way from the news. And if you wish to trivialise each event by taking each in isolation and pretending they're unrelated, then fine. But if you truly want to see these events as a pattern, as a seeker after truth and knowledge, then I suggest you spend $35 and read Hager's book. Or, if the book may take too long to reach you, you could go back about 4 months on this thread and follow what makes many in NZ so angry ... There are plenty of links from some of us and our commentary that goes with it ... ;)

Oh Belgarion!

I don't know how you can characterise this as trivial. It has ramifications in all sorts of directions. It's absolutely terrifying!

I don't see why you persist on seeing it as a political matter.

Based on what I haveread, there appears to have been a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. And based on what I have read, it seems that the Minister of Justice was either a member of the conspiracy, or an accessory to the conspiracy.

This seems to me to be a criminal matter, rather than a political matter.

Can someone please reassure me that the Attorney-General, the Solicitor-General, and the NZ Police are burning the midnight oil on this one?

winner69
01-09-2014, 01:56 AM
EZ - you ever read this stuff

http://ruminator.co.nz/is-the-prime-ministers-office-corrupt/

Hooten / Boag having a stoush would have been interesting

elZorro
01-09-2014, 06:08 AM
EZ - you ever read this stuff

http://ruminator.co.nz/is-the-prime-ministers-office-corrupt/

Hooten / Boag having a stoush would have been interesting

No, I haven't, W69. Thanks for pointing it out. Way back in 2010 that Las Vegas trip was a bit of a revelation, but Labour might not have made the most of it. I couldn't remember it.

A comment at the end of the article you posted:


Richard Kimble says: August 31, 2014 at 7:30 pm (http://ruminator.co.nz/is-the-prime-ministers-office-corrupt/#comment-62579)
One wonders…
1. Is Cathy Odgers in fact in NZ at the moment (not Hong Kong) and actively helping to clear the decks by leaking material to National insiders?
2. Is her blowing up of Judith Collins (and Matthew Hooton’s Radiolive broadside of Michelle Boag) part of a coordinated Matthew Hooton strategy to disenfranchise the Centre Right voters in National, allowing it to return to its ‘moderate’ ‘conservative’ core, post-Election, under Messrs English and Joyce?
3. Is Matthew Hooton contemporaneously launching a Centre Right/classical liberal party as the replacement of/alternative to a terminal ACT, to scoop up these disenfranchised supporters and provide National with electoral support (at a price) into the future?
4. Will any (post-Election) National MPs who are on the right side of National’s centre, and who loathe Joyce and feel aggrieved at English for past injustices, look to switch over?
5. Who has insured themselves comprehensively against damage when Judith Collins decides to pay it back double?



We know from "Dirty Politics" that the bloggers are political animals, always scheming up something. Hooton may well be waiting until just after the election to launch a new party for the right. I don't think it'll be centre right, more neo-liberal.

iceman
01-09-2014, 06:46 AM
Thank you for the interpretation and analysis, gentlemen, but mine was an honest question. Have I missed something, or is the situation as I described ?

Sorry to be pedantic, but as a seeker after truth and knowledge. . .

I think there is one important point that you do not have right. There has been no proof published that Collins was involved in the Feeley smear campaign, just an email from that Whaleoil guy making yet another extravagant claim. Collins flatly denies involvement (and at least partly supported by a statement from the State Services Commissioner) and asked for an inquiry to clear her name.
I would have thought innocent until proven guilty would apply here, but not of course for the leftwing posters on here who are not exactly known for holding any unbiased views !

Joshuatree
01-09-2014, 07:03 AM
It is so hilarious when Orca Vat Fat says there has been a smear campaign on Judith Collins.Nothing can be credible coming from that organ except when he said "neither confirm or deny" in this mornings interview with Mike Hoskins i.e. a Yes.

Joshuatree
01-09-2014, 08:10 AM
Whale OIL:)

Cuzzie
01-09-2014, 08:12 AM
I have a very dear relative who will probably always vote National. She thinks that John Key looks tired and should have a holiday. While I doubt that will happen this side of the election, I tend to agree with her. He looks tired, unsure of himself, more ordinary.It's a cool story and we have heard many of these with the same theme from you EZ. I only have one story along the same lines of somebody who is doing the opposite and won't be voting for Labour ever again, after been turned off by all the dirty politics coming from the dirty left and will be voting for National for the first time. I wont give you the ins & outs as I don't expect you or anybody from the dirty side to believe me, even though it's true. My point is EZ, maybe you should realise that those of us reading those cool stories who are on the clean side, may not believe you one little bit. Just food for thought.

I can't believe how the left have embraced fats and little Nicky with their altered stolen email collection. Maybe it is all these cool stories that turn them into believers? One thing they will not enjoy one little bit is the very fact that Nicky Hager's book is based on illegal activities and the Hacker, the Author and the Publisher will all have the book, "literally", thrown at them in legal terms, and I can not wait for that to happen. Like I have said before and you can mark my words, "but if the dirty left coalition wins this election, you will see the biggest legal action in NZ's history" and there will be no where for the left and their dirty book of tricks to hide. We can't afford that to happen for financial and inconvenience reason of a Government trying to run a country. The Governor General would have no choice but to dismiss a Prime Minister in this situation[and he would] & to force a dissolution of Parliament and call new elections. What goes around comes around and if that did happen, the left would think twice about going over to the dark side again and try to go about what they need to do to win an election in a normal manner. Hey but then again the loonie left aren't normal, are they?

Cuzzie
01-09-2014, 08:13 AM
Whale OIL:)
Whale Oil Beef Hooked, funny guy aye Jtree!!!

Joshuatree
01-09-2014, 08:24 AM
Cheers cuz. Funnier when the Smear Tactics Maestro is blaming smear tactics for Collins demise.

Cuzzie
01-09-2014, 08:44 AM
Cheers cuz. Funnier when the Smear Tactics Maestro is blaming smear tactics for Collins demise.
Nice try, let me rewrite that for you - "Not so funny when a Right wing Blogger who deals in information has his computer hacked, email contents edited for the hackers benefit and the whole illegal activity turned into a book for profit". Jtree, you carry on backing a German criminal and the dirty loonie left, after all that is where you belong and I will continue to back National who is trying to Govern our country. What has Key done to you, cut your benefit?

Cuzzie
01-09-2014, 08:51 AM
:)EZ, I just heard Leighton Smith address the propaganda you deal in live on ZB. He read out an email that said, " me & my friends[sic] all used to vote National, now we are voting Labour". Smith said that kind of email stands out a mile for what it is. Maybe it was the Grammar, most National voters would of stated "My friends & I". I wonder if that email was from you EZ? Regardless, please don't telling those cool stories here, I at least enjoy them for what they are.

Joshuatree
01-09-2014, 09:24 AM
He will reap what he has sown and anyone associated with him will too (you cuz? your way of talking is uncannily similar).A smear on the windscreen of history , a mercenary for hire; and one can't help thinking his Voldemort acolytes will be too. Contribution to our society? Ask the many thousands of kiwis who lost their funds through hotchkins vehicle, how they feel about Orca FAT VAT's support of Hotchkins .

fungus pudding
01-09-2014, 09:25 AM
:)EZ, I just heard Leighton Smith address the propaganda you deal in live on ZB. He read out an email that said, " me & my friends[sic] all used to vote National, now we are voting Labour". Smith said that kind of email stands out a mile for what it is. Maybe it was the Grammar, most National voters would of stated "My friends & I". I wonder if that email was from you EZ? Regardless, please don't telling those cool stories here, I at least enjoy them for what they are.

Real National voters would not 'of' stated: they would have stated.

Joshuatree
01-09-2014, 11:21 AM
Commentator on national radio saying one can be judged by the friends they keep referring to Collins and Orca Fat Vat and Key and the Vindictive nasty bloggs by OFV,

Methinks Nz will be the loser here with a lot of people not voting at all at this election;being so disillusioned.

winner69
01-09-2014, 12:38 PM
Cuzzie is really Sue Bradford. Bradford told Fairfax Media when she sent the tweet she was not aware anyone had been killed.



http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10446861/Bradford-shooting-tweet-sparks-backlash

Cuzzie
01-09-2014, 12:44 PM
Cuz. Grow up dude. You own words have damned you. Don't try and pretend otherwise or try to shift your heartlessness elsewhere.
I think we would all be better off if you took your own advice belg, afterall it was your comments out of context from mine and you knew exactly what you were doing. Like playing games much belg? I can't believe you gloat on here about Hacking me in less than 10 minutes and you had all my I.D details[your very own words] and you thought I owed you an apology. You're some kind of special for sure. Hopefully you will be a man[that's if you're proud to be one, unlike your leader] and carry out that promise to move offshore after National wins the election.

Winston001
01-09-2014, 01:10 PM
Emails are verbal.

Excellent work FP. :D I'm glad someone here is keeping an eye on the correct use of language.


In case anyone missed it, the spoken word is "oral". Verbal simple means words, usually written words.

Banksie
01-09-2014, 02:14 PM
One notes that the Admin or someone else has been in deleting Cuzzie's posts. And my responses that exposed Cuzzie as the heartless Slater disciple that they are.

Could they explain why? PM me if required. Surely the appropriate response would have been to give Cuz another week's holiday?

It would appear that he has, check his status.

Sgt Pepper
01-09-2014, 03:38 PM
Belg

I was thinking today about what has happened and about to happen.You know when something occurs then it can put a historic event in a different light. When Simon Power , National Minister of Justice announced he would be leaving politics prior to the 2011 election it took everyone by surprise. Now he was and is a man of very high integrity who was admired on both sides of the house. Would it be a stretch to speculate that he was appalled at what was occurring back then, looked into the swamp, and lost his appetite to continue in John Keys administration?
I wonder

Sgt Pepper
01-09-2014, 03:51 PM
An appropriate proverb for John Keys predicament

"When a Dove begins to associate with Crows its feathers remain white but its heart grows black"

(old German proverb)

GTM 3442
01-09-2014, 05:58 PM
. . . carry out that promise to move offshore after National wins the election.

Some of us might come back should they lose.

GTM 3442
01-09-2014, 06:24 PM
Belgarion, can you please, please, please stop lecturing me to read "Dirty Politics". Any more and you'll have me thinking that you're in cahoots with the publisher!

The book simply details the mechanics of what was already quite apparent.

When people decide to "do whatever it takes" to ensure that they "win at all costs", they generally demonstrate that they're not as clever as they think they are, and that they tend to have an under-developed sense of judgement.

I lean towards considering the present mess in terms of the 1972 US Presidential election. Nixon and his allies were going to win. But to "make sure", they did all sorts of unnecessary dumb stuff. And got pinged for it.

Nixon won the election and lost the Presidency.

slimwin
01-09-2014, 07:27 PM
There's no point reading the book other than to give Hager money. You'd have to presume the good bits and theme have already been exploited by the media.

Major von Tempsky
01-09-2014, 07:47 PM
Nowhere have I seen any comments that it is a piece of deathless English prose in the same league as Shakespeare, the King James Bible, The Lord of the Rings or The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

The figures the media were quoting were an initial run of 3,000 and then a reprint of about the same.

Is that a publishing success even in NZ? Is it enough to cover publishing costs?

Oh, silly me! Dot Com will cover all that....

iceman
02-09-2014, 07:01 AM
The cracks are starting to show already ! And this foreign criminal so blatantly buying himself influence is not dirty politics ?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11317634

Banksie
02-09-2014, 07:24 AM
Interesting that S&P recognise inequality as an economic risk and have started reporting on it.

https://www.globalcreditportal.com/ratingsdirect/renderArticle.do?articleId=1351366&SctArtId=255732&from=CM&nsl_code=LIME&sourceObjectId=8741033&sourceRevId=1&fee_ind=N&exp_date=20240804-19:41:13

Sgt Pepper
02-09-2014, 08:16 AM
Nowhere have I seen any comments that it is a piece of deathless English prose in the same league as Shakespeare, the King James Bible, The Lord of the Rings or The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

The figures the media were quoting were an initial run of 3,000 and then a reprint of about the same.

Is that a publishing success even in NZ? Is it enough to cover publishing costs?

Oh, silly me! Dot Com will cover all that....

MVT

Well I went to the biggest bookshop in Dunedin when it was first published, however it was all sold out by 10.30. Lots of copies of John Keys hagiography on sale (still) though

Major von Tempsky
02-09-2014, 08:21 AM
Well, Belge has admitted it - only 10,000!

The population of NZ is now over 4,500,000!

If you bring in digital downloads (Yes, I have an ereader) it will look even sicker as other overseas books will drown it completely.

Sgt Pepper
02-09-2014, 08:52 AM
Well, Belge has admitted it - only 10,000!

The population of NZ is now over 4,500,000!

If you bring in digital downloads (Yes, I have an ereader) it will look even sicker as other overseas books will drown it completely.

MVT
If its 10000, then that is the case. I thought it would have sold more.
Score
MVT = 1
Sgt Pepper=0

slimwin
02-09-2014, 01:14 PM
Sounds like your bigoted against National supporters Belg.

Banksie
02-09-2014, 01:38 PM
Thus far ... MVT, Cuzzie, FP and many others; including yourself; are displaying symptoms of bigotry. An impartial observer would only need to go back through your posts to conclude the same thing.

I think that might be a bit harsh belg. I have found slimwin and fp easy to engage with. Yes they have their opinion, but I get the feeling that they are at least weighing up the options and making an informed decision (even if it is one that you may not agree with).

But I will give you the other two ;)

GTM 3442
02-09-2014, 02:30 PM
. . .
We just need the emails from these attack bloggers to lead back to National Party members and we should all be looking for our pitch forks, tar and feathers. ...

But what am I saying ... Surely there's a more likely scenario?

What if Slater and Graham's fathers and father's friends were the link? ... A quick nod and wink, a few untaxed dollars under the table in grubby envelopes, and away the scumbags went? ... If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then its probably a duck?

As a result, I think I shall be looking at shares in The Warehouse, and in Mainfreight.

As em@il is no longer secure, a lot more correspondence will be done by hand, using pen and paper, then couriered to the recipients, who will then read it and shred it.

Pens, paper, grubby envelopes, and shredders from The Warehouse, courier service from Mainfreight. Not

Looks like a winner to me.

Major von Tempsky
02-09-2014, 02:50 PM
Admitted what exactly, Hugh?

I was only challenging your b.s that said the initial run was 3k. Actually it was 4k. And it was sold out in less than 1.5 hours. Another 2k was ordered and within an hour was upped to 4k. All this in 1st 24 hours?

Get with it Hugh. People are becoming informed. We know you don't want them to be.

Have you read it, Hugh?

No? I guess you're quite happy being the bigot you are. Fine by me. Question tho ... Are all National supporters so bigoted?

National supporters don't need to read it as its all "a left wing conspiracy theory"? Is that what you're saying? Keep burying your head in the sand, Hugh. Up to you. (You have the honour of being our ShareTrader clown after all.)

BTW ... The "Afterword" of NH's books hasn't been reported on much - actually only in the first day about the need for complete transparency in party donations and funding.

People like Hugh should be reading the Afterword ... if nothing else .... If they don't, the "BIG BAD LEFT WING" will get in and do it all to National ... Copying exactly from the National Party playbook!

Hmmm, well if its a choice of believing the Sunday Star Times and believing Belge I'll believe the SST any day of the week.
But the point is its a rather small number. Eleanor Catton's "The Luminaries" (which I bought) about 20, Nicky Hager 1.

There may have been a feeding frenzy among the far left wing as Sue Bradford and John Minto and Dot Com and Belge all tried to cram into the same shop together....

Sgt Pepper
02-09-2014, 03:01 PM
Geez! Even Bernard Hickey of www.interest.co.nz (http://www.interest.co.nz) fame has been attacked!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10447644/Bloggers-targeted-business-journalist

I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Bernard is, after all, an educated man and the holder of economics qualifications (unlike you MVT) and, consequently, has been rightly critical of this mediocre National party led government.

We just need the emails from these attack bloggers to lead back to National Party members and we should all be looking for our pitch forks, tar and feathers. ...

But what am I saying ... Surely there's a more likely scenario?

What if Slater and Graham's fathers and father's friends were the link? ... A quick nod and wink, a few untaxed dollars under the table in grubby envelopes, and away the scumbags went? ... If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then its probably a duck?

Belg

You are correct. I notice when I have been posting and have referred to or quoted Bernard Hickey or Road Oram they are dismissed with a level of invective which I find puzzling. Why is this, I think, that some National government supporters are so harsh with these two. I am not sure but I could speculate. You see anyone with an economics or business background who doesn't always worship at the altar of John Key is especially reviled as they are seen as a threat. Despite prejudices about Labour governments being " anti business" it simply doesn't stand up under scrutiny. As I have pointed out before one of the most outstanding Labour Party President was the late Michael Hirscfeld, a multi millionaire who owned Mico-Wakefield. Should the country elect a left of centre government the very well off have nothing to fear, angry crowds of peasants with pitchforks will not besiege their homes, they will not have to bury their jewelery, and I am positve we wont see guillotines in town squares.
BUT if John Key is let loose on the levers of power again after all these incredible revelations..who knows. I think I might read All The Presidents Men , there are some extraordinary similarities with the Watergate Scandal, truly frightening stuff

Banksie
02-09-2014, 03:02 PM
Hmmm, well if its a choice of believing the Sunday Star Times and believing Belge I'll believe the SST any day of the week.

I think you will find it is more than belg that had the initial run down as 4000.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/kiwis-can-t-get-enough-dirty-politics-6061264
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1408/S00360/dirty-politics-number-one-bestseller-and-back-in-stores.htm
http://www.i-grafix.com/new-zealand/truepress-cleans-up-after-dirty-politics/
http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/books/10384028/Dirty-Politics-Industry-overwhelmed-by-demand

Winston001
02-09-2014, 07:39 PM
Let's be clear on what bigotry is...

An impartial observer would only need to go back through your posts to conclude the same thing.

Why would I say this?

Because impartial observers from the US and Europe are going back through forums such as this to understand how people think and behave in the face of significant political upheaval.

Funny to think that the rest of the world is seeing us as guinea pigs. ;)

Except there is no political upheaval. None at all. This is one of the least contentious elections held in recent decades.

New Zealand is prosperous, unemployment is falling, new car sales are up, machinery sales are up, house prices continue to rise in some places etc etc. We shouldn't ignore those who are struggling but overall we live in a fortunate nation.

slimwin
02-09-2014, 07:54 PM
"Bigotry is a state of mind where a person views other groups with fear, distrust, prejudice or hatred solely on the basis of ethnicity, race, religion, national origin, gender, disability, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, or other group characteristics."

That "other group characteristics" would include national supporters. Do you really think anybody on here, that has read you abusive posts to people that don't have the same view as yours, believe that you can't be bigoted to a group? I doudt I'd even have to please you by copy/pasting. You would only have to look at most a page or two back. If that.

Is this maybe even why you get banned every now and again?

elZorro
02-09-2014, 08:18 PM
FP. What do you think of National's latest policy of granting $10,000 or $20,000 to new home buyers? How does it compare to interest free student loans, R&D tax credits etc? It's notable that the money will be promptly paid across to those selling houses, in many cases they'll be rental property investors looking to get out at the high end of the market. Is this the sort of policy National has at its core?

Based on your comments in the past, surely this policy will simply add $10,000 or $20,000 to all house prices? You, Sir, should not vote for them, in principle.

GTM 3442
02-09-2014, 10:13 PM
But very, very slow GTM. And unlikely that your suppliers or customers would accept it.

Once those "grubby envelopes" of yours get moving, Belg, it's security not speed that's important. For all parties to the transaction.

From The Guardian of 15th July:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/15/germany-typewriters-espionage-nsa-spying-surveillance

"German politicians are considering a return to using manual typewriters for sensitive documents in the wake of the US surveillance scandal.

The head of the Bundestag's parliamentary inquiry into NSA activity in Germany said in an interview with the Morgenmagazin TV programme that he and his colleagues were seriously thinking of ditching email completely.

Asked "Are you considering typewriters" by the interviewer on Monday night, the Christian Democrat politican Patrick Sensburg said: "As a matter of fact, we have – and not electronic models either". "Really?" the surprised interviewer checked. "Yes, no joke," Sensburg responded."

Hopefully, Warehouse Stationery also sell typewriters.

But, either way, I rest my case. . .

craic
03-09-2014, 07:40 AM
A competent internet user can create all kinds of havoc, send chills up and down the backs of people up and down the country and cost large amounts of money simply by creating an idea,masking it in a degree of mystery and releasing it as an "I read in the paper the other day" item. It could simply be a statement that "unknown to the public there are three cases of #%#%#%# Disease already in NZ. Two are in Auckland and one in Christchurch" We are probably fortunate that the clowns who play this sort of game have confined their efforts to politics. We need strong new laws but you wont get them until the clowns start interfering in the financial markets and costing a lot of money.

Banksie
03-09-2014, 08:01 AM
A competent internet user can create all kinds of havoc, send chills up and down the backs of people up and down the country and cost large amounts of money simply by creating an idea,masking it in a degree of mystery and releasing it as an "I read in the paper the other day" item. It could simply be a statement that "unknown to the public there are three cases of #%#%#%# Disease already in NZ. Two are in Auckland and one in Christchurch" We are probably fortunate that the clowns who play this sort of game have confined their efforts to politics. We need strong new laws but you wont get them until the clowns start interfering in the financial markets and costing a lot of money.

Are you talking about the hackers or the bloggers craic?

Banksie
03-09-2014, 08:12 AM
Just days after resigning as a government minister, Judith Collins has branded the hacker behind her downfall a "criminal" and slated Labour leader David Cunliffe as a moron.

(source: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10451707/Judith-Collins-Cunliffe-is-a-moron)

Is she being quotes out of context here? (I don't have access to the video at the moment).

If she isn't, I cannot understand why anyone would vote for a candidate who is so immature as to resort to name calling.

fungus pudding
03-09-2014, 08:20 AM
Just days after resigning as a government minister, Judith Collins has branded the hacker behind her downfall a "criminal" and slated Labour leader David Cunliffe as a moron.

(source: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10451707/Judith-Collins-Cunliffe-is-a-moron)

Is she being quotes out of context here? (I don't have access to the video at the moment).

If she isn't, I cannot understand why anyone would vote for a candidate who is so immature as to resort to name calling.

The further down the chain she gets pushed, the better for National. She is horrible.

craic
03-09-2014, 08:29 AM
Neither. I'm talking about anyone who can post to any site/ blog or otherwise. I agree with Collins that a hacker is a criminal - an individual who invades anothers private domain and in doing so commits an imprisonable offence. Calling anyone, even a Labour politician, a moron is over the top, although it's probably not an offence in itself.

Banksie
03-09-2014, 09:06 AM
an individual who invades anothers private domain and in doing so commits an imprisonable offence.


So you're saying that anyone who accessed the Labour Party web site and took information is also a criminal?

So if the GCSB monitor and/or intercept my email are they criminals?

Major von Tempsky
03-09-2014, 09:40 AM
Funny that....I distinctly remember it being pointed out that what Ede etc lifted was from an open website where the info was/is available to anyone, it's just that certain people were moronic enough to put all sorts of things there. It would be like me putting all my financial details on my Facebook. Now, having read the gutter language and bombastic ego-centricity of both Slater and Collins (both of whom probably hate each other by now for ratting etc) I wouldn't want to associate with them but facts are facts and the only ones in the gun for hacking and receiving stolen property are Dot Com and Nicky Hager.

What you have is a set of morally and personally repugnant people which crosses party lines - Slater, Collins, Ede (probably), Dot Com, Nicky Hager and the 4 people doing the same thing in the Labour Party that John Key said he could name.

Its a ticking time bomb for the Labour Party, just a matter of time before they get off side with Dot Com (if they win the election and Cunliffe lets Justice pursue its course in extradition proceeding for Dot Com for example) and bingo another treasure trove of hacked personal emails ends up with Nicky Hager to publish or possibly some right wing author if he is too squeamish.
Then imagine the wailing and caterwauling and whingeing emanating from the Labour side :-)

craic
03-09-2014, 09:54 AM
The GCSB and govt agencies have statutory rights to go places that private individuals can't. Try getting offside with Inland Revenue and find out how far they can go. Right from the contents of your childrens piggy banks to the contents of your mother-in-laws underwear drawer. And the Privacy Laws do not apply in the investigation or disposal of criminal matters. As a PO I used to get this all the time "but that's private, you can't speak to my employer" and I could and I did.

Banksie
03-09-2014, 10:01 AM
It would be like me putting all my financial details on my Facebook.

Are you sure. If you put all your financial details on your facebook page and I saw them should I:

1) Republish the information to the public.
2) Send you a discrete message advising you to tighten security?

elZorro
03-09-2014, 10:23 AM
Belgarion: BTW No other party have any blogger that even comes close to what National's has paid for. (I know this because there is a group actively monitoring attack bloggers and spin merchants from all political parties.)

I wonder if any of us have made the list! Would we get ratings for accuracy of posts, or conversely, spinning BS?

Joshuatree
03-09-2014, 12:30 PM
Like him or loathe him Hagar has shown what really goes on behind the scenes and its bad; there is a betrayal of trust thats been exposed and kiwis need to face up to it and make sure changes are put in place.

Similarly A lot of people hated John Minto too but he helped educate us re racism and equality and allow us to become global responsible citizens.

In the future, looking back we will see Hagar too was a pivot point for the better in the history of NZ.

Banksie
03-09-2014, 12:41 PM
Hagar

6215

Hager

6216

:D

Banksie
03-09-2014, 02:42 PM
Michele A'Court wrote a good opinion piece in The Press today.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/10452018/In-the-beginning-people-created-govt

elZorro
03-09-2014, 05:54 PM
A very good article by Michele a'Court. I can't believe the press think John Key won the last debate, which I've only seen shorts of. John Key as popular as ever. Arrgh. Will no-one rid us of this turbulent party? At least the artists and stage people, musicians etc, will back Labour generally. It's time they all did their bit, so thanks Michele.

In this article is a few cartoons of Judith Collins. Some priceless ones.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11318332

David Cunliffe on TV tonight, pointed out that John Key is becoming a desperate man, trying to fib in the debates about his interpretation of the CGT. There are probably over 100,000 National voters who listened to the sound bites earlier, and will be repeating that take to each other, over their beers at the pub. It will become legend. Not the truth, but close enough for them.

Joshuatree
03-09-2014, 06:43 PM
I just hope the peoples inform them selves belg. meanwhile

Judith Collins: Cunliffe is a moron (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10451707/Judith-Collins-Cunliffe-is-a-moron) her true colours shining through. Meglomaniacs archilles is that they are unaware of how transparent they are. Thank heavens we can at least be confident that she will never be the leader she thinks she can be:t_up:

iceman
03-09-2014, 06:48 PM
TV3 poll taken during all the "dirty politics" debate showing Labour at its lowest level in 3 years and National up. John Key also up in the preferred PM poll with 4 times more voters wanting him than Cunliffe.
So EZ do you think it may be Cunliffe, not Key, who is getting a tad desperate, with each poll getting worse for him and being shown to not know the detail of his biggest policies !!!

fungus pudding
03-09-2014, 07:17 PM
TV3 poll taken during all the "dirty politics" debate showing Labour at its lowest level in 3 years and National up. John Key also up in the preferred PM poll with 4 times more voters wanting him than Cunliffe.
So EZ do you think it may be Cunliffe, not Key, who is getting a tad desperate, with each poll getting worse for him and being shown to not know the detail of his biggest policies !!!

I think National will climb a few points over the remaining time till election; here's hoping they get back over 50% - bliss: eh eZ !

elZorro
03-09-2014, 08:24 PM
I think National will climb a few points over the remaining time till election; here's hoping they get back over 50% - bliss: eh eZ !

FP, you have to have a look back and answer a question I put to you yesterday. :)

National are pretty much doomed for 2014, I'm sure there will be some even better questions levelled fairly at John Key, if the press are brave enough.

Iceman, yes I thought it was poor form for David Cunliffe to not know the policy on private houses in trusts. That was a good score, but Key then basically lied in front of the nation about his interpretation. It was what he hoped the interpretation was. Like he reckons there are bloggers on Labour's side who stoop as low as National bloggers, but won't name them. Actually, a lot more Labour voters than National voters think that it is not OK to be a bit bent in politics. That says a lot.

fungus pudding
04-09-2014, 07:38 AM
FP, you have to have a look back and answer a question I put to you yesterday. :)

National are pretty much doomed for 2014, I'm sure there will be some even better questions levelled fairly at John Key, if the press are brave enough.



Sorry. I can't see the post you refer to. But on the subject of CGT, I have previously stated it can be a good or bad tax depending on detail. Cunliffe has finally answered the burning question that I have been trying to find out. Namely is it intended to be cumulative. i.e. paid in addition to income tax. The answer - yes it is, he disclosed on NewstalkZB taking to Larry Williams. That takes it to 51% in some cases depending on individual's marginal tax rates. Or 55% if Greens have much say. That makes it worse than Rowling's spec tax (90% but abated 10% per annum over 10 years) It certainly puts spec builders out of business, and I thought they were pro-house development, and stops commercial development. I notice a couple of tax practioners have started to look at detail - and don't like it. They really need to go back to the drawing board on this proposed tax. We don't want the mistakes of other countries. e.g. Australia. N.B. mention of roll-over or repatriation that I have banged on about before - someone else has woken up to it.

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/business/314725/capital-gains-policy-stumbles


Footnote: I have no intention of following your practise of posting links from all over the show. This is a one-off. :t_up:

Banksie
04-09-2014, 08:35 AM
Sorry. I can't see the post you refer to. But on the subject of CGT, I have previously stated it can be a good or bad tax depending on detail. Cunliffe has finally answered the burning question that I have been trying to find out. Namely is it intended to be cumulative. i.e. paid in addition to income tax. The answer - yes it is, he disclosed on NewstalkZB taking to Larry Williams. That takes it to 51% in some cases depending on individual's marginal tax rates.

I am disappointed that labour appear to be confused about their own CGT policy (disc: I didn't listen to NewstalkZB).

According to their latest written policy, "Treatment of traders: Assets currently taxed at the individual’s marginal or at the business tax rate will continue to fall under the existing regime.", which I take to mean it would not attract CGT.

fungus pudding
04-09-2014, 08:55 AM
I am disappointed that labour appear to be confused about their own CGT policy (disc: I didn't listen to NewstalkZB).

According to their latest written policy, "Treatment of traders: Assets currently taxed at the individual’s marginal or at the business tax rate will continue to fall under the existing regime.", which I take to mean it would not attract CGT.

It will still attract the same income tax, according to Cunliffe PLUS CGT. You'll find it on replay radio ZB newstalk yesterday - sometime not long after 4 p.m.

Another 'interesting' point I heard discussed on radio is that on the introduction of cgt shares will be valued as at that time. So if a share purchased for $1 falls to 50c when introduced, then is later sold for 75 cents, 25cents would attract CGT.

777
04-09-2014, 09:12 AM
So belge you would sign a contract without reading the fine print.

You cannot sell such an impacting policy without more detail. To rely on Labour to be "fair" is going too far.

Poorly thought out on their part and will be their downfall. 16 days from now will show you.

Banksie
04-09-2014, 09:19 AM
Once again - Labour's policy is that a specialist tax group will be created to establish exactly how it will work!

Cheers mate, I lost sight of that in all the noise of people picking apart a policy that is not yet formed.

couta1
04-09-2014, 09:20 AM
It will still attract the same income tax, according to Cunliffe PLUS CGT. You'll find it on replay radio ZB newstalk yesterday - sometime not long after 4 p.m.

Another 'interesting' point I heard discussed on radio is that on the introduction of cgt shares will be valued as at that time. So if a share purchased for $1 falls to 50c when introduced, then is later sold for 75 cents, 25cents would attract CGT.
This just doesn't make any logical sense to me a share purchased at $1 dropping to 50 c gives you a 50c loss, if it later rises to 75c and you sell you still realize a 25c loss upon disposal, the capital loss or gain would always need to be based on original purchase price otherwise the whole concept is flawed and grossly unfair.

artemis
04-09-2014, 09:24 AM
I think people are waking up to some of the implications of the proposed CGT, now that it has hit the MSM and getting some serious air time. A large proportion of the population will be impacted by having to pay more tax. Mind you, mention of the word 'tax' does make most people's eyes glaze over. So if it is introduced, the first they may realise the $$ impact is when it happens to them. Which may be well into the future, when a CGT is well bedded in.

On National Radio this morning, Mr Rosenberg of the CTU and Mr Shewen the tax expert had almost completely opposing views on the proposed CGT. Mr Rosenberg's reasons were high level - it's currently not fair and would encourage investment in productive enterprises. Mr Shewen, a member of the Tax Working Group (which did NOT recommend changes to the existing CGT) had a list of reasons with details.

So there are a couple of actual experts who do not agree with each other. Who would you believe? And why?

fungus pudding
04-09-2014, 09:28 AM
This just doesn't make any logical sense to me a share purchased at $1 dropping to 50 c gives you a 50c loss, if it later rises to 75c and you sell you still realize a 25c loss upon disposal, the capital loss or gain would always need to be based on original purchase price otherwise the whole concept is flawed and grossly unfair.

Except values apply as at commencement date of tax, so the explanation said.

elZorro
04-09-2014, 09:34 AM
Sorry. I can't see the post you refer to. But on the subject of CGT, I have previously stated it can be a good or bad tax depending on detail. Cunliffe has finally answered the burning question that I have been trying to find out. Namely is it intended to be cumulative. i.e. paid in addition to income tax. The answer - yes it is, he disclosed on NewstalkZB taking to Larry Williams. That takes it to 51% in some cases depending on individual's marginal tax rates. Or 55% if Greens have much say. That makes it worse than Rowling's spec tax (90% but abated 10% per annum over 10 years) It certainly puts spec builders out of business, and I thought they were pro-house development, and stops commercial development. I notice a couple of tax practioners have started to look at detail - and don't like it. They really need to go back to the drawing board on this proposed tax. We don't want the mistakes of other countries. e.g. Australia. N.B. mention of roll-over or repatriation that I have banged on about before - someone else has woken up to it.

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/business/314725/capital-gains-policy-stumbles


Footnote: I have no intention of following your practise of posting links from all over the show. This is a one-off. :t_up:

FP, here is the link to my question. http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?8606-If-National-wins&p=502113&viewfull=1#post502113

Many thanks for posting the link to an article by Dene "I'll always vote National" Mackenzie of the ODT. You know, and I know, that Labour would charge CGT or standard income tax on an asset sale, but not both. And you also must realise that there is no sense in having a repatriation clause, if the policy is to do any good. May as well scrap it now, if it has to have a clause like that.

As I've said before, I strongly disagree with you and Belgarion on whether the family home should be included in a CGT regime. We overspend on our houses, put our own labour in, they are generally poorer investments if you add up all the real costs. Plus we have to pay all the interest costs from our tax-paid income, and not claim any of it back.

Farms, commercial and domestic rentals, business premises, different story. 15% of realised future gains after expenses are taken out, is a very fair cop.

iceman
04-09-2014, 09:34 AM
Sorry. I can't see the post you refer to. But on the subject of CGT, I have previously stated it can be a good or bad tax depending on detail. Cunliffe has finally answered the burning question that I have been trying to find out. Namely is it intended to be cumulative. i.e. paid in addition to income tax. The answer - yes it is, he disclosed on NewstalkZB taking to Larry Williams. That takes it to 51% in some cases depending on individual's marginal tax rates. Or 55% if Greens have much say. That makes it worse than Rowling's spec tax (90% but abated 10% per annum over 10 years) It certainly puts spec builders out of business, and I thought they were pro-house development, and stops commercial development. I notice a couple of tax practioners have started to look at detail - and don't like it. They really need to go back to the drawing board on this proposed tax. We don't want the mistakes of other countries. e.g. Australia. N.B. mention of roll-over or repatriation that I have banged on about before - someone else has woken up to it.

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/business/314725/capital-gains-policy-stumbles


Footnote: I have no intention of following your practise of posting links from all over the show. This is a one-off. :t_up:

I did listen to the interview on Newstalk ZB and it was a real eye opener. It clearly showed that Labour has not thought this policy through nor had it properly assessed or costed.
The more I hear about the detail, the worse it gets and clearly shows that if we are to have a CGT, the only way it will work is to have a comprehensive tax that covers all assets, including the family home. Otherwise it will be full of holes and will not work.

The latest I have heard is that it will not be indexed for inflation nor will capital improvements be counted towards value of houses/buildings. So for an example you buy a house for $500k, spend $200k on it over the years and sell it for a million a few years later. You will be taxed on the difference between purchase and sell prices so in this example, on the $500k. Even though the house has in reality cost you $700k and the profit is "only" $300k.

Labour has also confirmed that this is an inheritance tax in disguise by saying that in case of siblings (for example) inheriting parents family home, if it is not sold within 1 month of parents dying, it will be subject to CGT. As anyone knows that has been through this, 1 month it is a very short time frame to sort out an estate.

Just a couple of small examples of this mad and ill thought out tax.

Banksie
04-09-2014, 09:52 AM
This just doesn't make any logical sense to me a share purchased at $1 dropping to 50 c gives you a 50c loss, if it later rises to 75c and you sell you still realize a 25c loss upon disposal, the capital loss or gain would always need to be based on original purchase price otherwise the whole concept is flawed and grossly unfair.

When CGT was implemented in South Africa a number of valuation methods were given. One was to use value on v-day (e.g. 50c) the other was to use purchase value (e.g. $1). You decided the most favourable value at time of disposal.

(v-day = valuation date = the day CGT is implemented)

This is only occurs for assets purchased before v-day. Assets purchased after v-day are valued on purchase price.

artemis
04-09-2014, 09:53 AM
Don't forget CGT on capital gains from shares ....

Banksie
04-09-2014, 09:58 AM
The latest I have heard is that it will not be indexed for inflation nor will capital improvements be counted towards value of houses/buildings. So for an example you buy a house for $500k, spend $200k on it over the years and sell it for a million a few years later. You will be taxed on the difference between purchase and sell prices so in this example, on the $500k. Even though the house has in reality cost you $700k and the profit is "only" $300k.

Wherever CGT has been implemented you have always been able to account for costs. So in this situation you would only pay tax on the $300k. I think there are just a lot of people throwing up scare tactics around CGT.

Here is an article from a few years ago that went through some of the myths:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10699125

couta1
04-09-2014, 10:05 AM
Don't forget CGT on capital gains from shares ....
And capital loss as non traders would also be entitled to claim all their losses against other income.

iceman
04-09-2014, 10:14 AM
Wherever CGT has been implemented you have always been able to account for costs. So in this situation you would only pay tax on the $300k. I think there are just a lot of people throwing up scare tactics around CGT.

Here is an article from a few years ago that went through some of the myths:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10699125

Not according to a "tax expert" (Sorry didn;t catch her name) I listened to on Newstalk ZB this morning who had been looking at the Labour policy. She was scathing in the lack of detail and glaring gaps in the policy

Banksie
04-09-2014, 10:20 AM
Not according to a "tax expert" (Sorry didn;t catch her name) I listened to on Newstalk ZB this morning who had been looking at the Labour policy. She was scathing in the lack of detail and glaring gaps in the policy

This is lifted straight from the policy

Calculating the Gain
The tax will be applied to net capital gains.

The CGT is a net tax. It is calculated on the net gain, which is the gross gain after the costs associated with buying and selling the asset are deducted. Such costs include: stockbrokers’ fees, legal fees, valuation fees, advertising costs to find a buyer or costs associated with improving the value of the asset.

I am suggesting she hasn't read it if she is saying costs associated with improving the assets will not be taking into account.

Edit: If she really did go on the radio and say this someone should be holding her to account, as it is blatant misrepresentation.

Banksie
04-09-2014, 10:24 AM
And capital loss as non traders would also be entitled to claim all their losses against other income.

Not against other income, only against other shares.

iceman
04-09-2014, 10:37 AM
This is lifted straight from the policy

Calculating the Gain
The tax will be applied to net capital gains.

The CGT is a net tax. It is calculated on the net gain, which is the gross gain after the costs associated with buying and selling the asset are deducted. Such costs include: stockbrokers’ fees, legal fees, valuation fees, advertising costs to find a buyer or costs associated with improving the value of the asset.

I am suggesting she hasn't read it if she is saying costs associated with improving the assets will not be taking into account.

Edit: If she really did go on the radio and say this someone should be holding her to account, as it is blatant misrepresentation.

I read the policy on their website and you are right about this point Banksie. However, the policy as posted on Labour's website, is full of holes and exemptions and will not work.

Banksie
04-09-2014, 10:45 AM
I read the policy on their website and you are right about this point Banksie. However, the policy as posted on Labour's website, is full of holes and exemptions and will not work.

Our current tax policy is full of exemptions. Does it work?

From the article I linked earlier:

MYTH 3: THEY BECOME A SWISS CHEESE OF EXEMPTIONS
It has been suggested - for example, in the 2001 review of New Zealand's tax system - that benefits of a capital gains tax inevitably erode over time because they are amended more often.

South Africa's experience shows that its capital gains tax has been amended no more often than other types of tax in South Africa.

The amendments have not been of the type (significant new exemptions and preferences, for example) that critics of capital gains tax are concerned about.

New Zealand's experience is that because of the constant need to clarify and protect the boundary between capital gains and ordinary income, a system without capital gains tax is subject to frequent ad hoc amendment.

Regarding the holes, these still need to be thrashed out. The policy is peppered with clauses such as the following:

The Expert Panel will be asked to provide advice on outstanding issues in relation to trusts, in cooperation with the Law Commission. This will include whether CGT is applied to distribution to a beneficiary or unit holder or upon realisation even if that occurs within a trust structure. There may also be technical issues relating to Trans-Tasman treatment of assets.

In other words, as belg said, "Exactly how it will work, i.e. the detail, will be worked out by experts through the established democratic process which we can all participate in."

I put it to you that NZ will get CGT, if not this term it will be the next, as I cannot imagine National will be in power for the next 30 years.

fungus pudding
04-09-2014, 11:52 AM
FP. What do you think of National's latest policy of granting $10,000 or $20,000 to new home buyers? How does it compare to interest free student loans, R&D tax credits etc? It's notable that the money will be promptly paid across to those selling houses, in many cases they'll be rental property investors looking to get out at the high end of the market. Is this the sort of policy National has at its core?

Based on your comments in the past, surely this policy will simply add $10,000 or $20,000 to all house prices? You, Sir, should not vote for them, in principle.

It's bad policy. There is some merit in 20k for a new house, which is less than govt. will gain in GST and will mean some houses built that otherwise wouldn't be; but it's nonsense. However I will vote for them. I do not expect to ever find a party whose policies are 100% in line with my thinking, so vote against the party I think will do most harm. I don't like Labour's housing policy either and don't believe it would ever achieve what they say (100,000 houses in ten years with 10,000 in the first 3 year term )- unless they slam into mass produced ghettos like state housing of the 40s.

winner69
04-09-2014, 11:57 AM
Latest
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11319024

Key should tell Crusher to take a runner once and for all and withdraw her nomination from wherever she standing

But then maybe Crusher knows a lot more than all this

Jay
04-09-2014, 12:09 PM
http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by couta1 http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?p=502411#post502411) And capital loss as non traders would also be entitled to claim all their losses against other income.


Not against other income, only against other shares.

I heard DC say (and others) that it against future Capitals gains
For example year 1 you had a loss of $1000 on assets that qualified you sold, year 2 you had a gain of $2000 on qualifying assets sold, the tax would be calculated on $1000 only

Share traders would continue to taxed at their marginal rate

fungus pudding
04-09-2014, 12:10 PM
FP, here is the link to my question. http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?8606-If-National-wins&p=502113&viewfull=1#post502113

Many thanks for posting the link to an article by Dene "I'll always vote National" Mackenzie of the ODT. You know, and I know, that Labour would charge CGT or standard income tax on an asset sale, but not both. And you also must realise that there is no sense in having a repatriation clause, if the policy is to do any good. May as well scrap it now, if it has to have a clause like that.

As I've said before, I strongly disagree with you and Belgarion on whether the family home should be included in a CGT regime. We overspend on our houses, put our own labour in, they are generally poorer investments if you add up all the real costs. Plus we have to pay all the interest costs from our tax-paid income, and not claim any of it back.

Farms, commercial and domestic rentals, business premises, different story. 15% of realised future gains after expenses are taken out, is a very fair cop.

Not having a repatriation clause has a downside for businesses wanting to expand, and what you say about overspending on our houses, putting labour in, and being poor investments applies equally to residential rentals. And no investor can claim interest back. Where did you get that idea? Furthermore the biggest cost in housing, depreciation, is no longer considered an expense; possibly the silliest move of the current government.

Joshuatree
04-09-2014, 12:54 PM
"Just smile and wave" lol thats about it; all the way to the knackers yard.
Looks more and more like this election is Nationals to lose ; awaiting what else is going to spill out onto the sidewalk.

craic
04-09-2014, 01:12 PM
So far the only thing that hasn't spilled out onto the street is any sign of an effective Labour Party. As ElZorro can tell you there is a$1,000 bet on this one and for all the bluster and bull**** no one has stepped forward to accept the second $1,000 bet that I offered. Now back to the real world.

Joshuatree
04-09-2014, 01:33 PM
Sorry craic I'm not a betting man and would never invest in SKC etc its too damaging/destructive on families etc. Who knows what will or won't be exposed leading up to the election and i agree labour have executed poorly on the cap gains tax. Im sure it will be worked and reworked until we have an equitable arrangement;are we not one of the few countries that don't have one?

fungus pudding
04-09-2014, 01:37 PM
Sorry craic I'm not a betting man and would never invest in SKC etc its too damaging/destructive on families etc. Who knows what will or won't be exposed leading up to the election and i agree labour have executed poorly on the cap gains tax. Im sure it will be worked and reworked until we have an equitable arrangement;are we not one of the few countries that don't have one?

There are pros and cons to a CGT, but the fact that most countries have one is no reason that we should.

elZorro
04-09-2014, 02:24 PM
So far the only thing that hasn't spilled out onto the street is any sign of an effective Labour Party. As ElZorro can tell you there is a$1,000 bet on this one and for all the bluster and bull**** no one has stepped forward to accept the second $1,000 bet that I offered. Now back to the real world.

Craic, I still think you should keep some funds for that bet, standing by. Labour have already morally won the election, now we just need to see a seachange from voters.

fungus pudding
04-09-2014, 02:46 PM
Craic, I still think you should keep some funds for that bet, standing by. Labour have already morally won the election, now we just need to see a seachange from voters.

There won't be any voter swing to Labour/Greens. They are just not popular and that won't change. I think it's looking like The Conservatives will get 5%+ meaning National won't need Winston First - maybe not too much wrong with that as long as Craig doesn't get silly about unworkable bottom lines.

craic
04-09-2014, 03:11 PM
My feelings exactly. People are bored and turned off by the hesad/shesaid garbage and the fat dog at the bottom gate, surrounded the associated mongrels frightens a lot of people who know that Labour would be beholden to them if National couldn't get the numbers. I, for the first time, am voting for a candidate that I know wont win this seat but at the end of the day I will be largely unaffected by the result - I will still sleep in the same bed with the same woman (Labour didn't think to offer an exchange scheme that might have attracted me) and will still eat the same food and drink the same wine as I do now. My progeny have already gone on to greater things elsewhere. And last but not least, if you think this world we live in is going to last forever, think again. Putin is almost ready to Put on a cocked hat and shove one hand into his jacket and ride across Europe. Some Lunatic Moslem is about to do the same across the Arab world. Ebola is spreading faster than Argentine ants and the odd volcano is getting restive here and there. So forget about the slogan " It's moments like these you need a Minto"

Joshuatree
04-09-2014, 03:11 PM
There won't be any voter swing to Labour/Greens. They are just not popular and that won't change. I think it's looking like The Conservatives will get 5%+ meaning National won't need Winston First - maybe not too much wrong with that as long as Craig doesn't get silly about unworkable bottom lines.

An example of Crosby-Textor brainwashing, sad to see NZ'rs so easily manipulated/brainwashed.

Banksie
04-09-2014, 03:11 PM
For anyone interested in all the polls "at a glance" there is a neat page on wiki that summarises them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_New_Zealand_general_electi on,_2014

Snapper
04-09-2014, 03:54 PM
An example of Crosby-Textor brainwashing, sad to see NZ'rs so easily manipulated/brainwashed.

You should have a little more faith in the NZ electorate, they've generally got it right over the years. The only time I reckon they didn't get it right was in '81 when Muldoon got reelected (thanks John Minto!). If National get in again, we'll be having another very centrist government - fine by me.

777
04-09-2014, 05:33 PM
An example of Crosby-Textor brainwashing, sad to see NZ'rs so easily manipulated/brainwashed.


Just because they don't agree with you does not mean they are brain washed. In fact they may think that you are the one that is brain washed. One thing that the masses don't want is massive changes and that is what the left will bring. And then mismanage it if the last two days are any indication.

Sgt Pepper
04-09-2014, 07:28 PM
You should have a little more faith in the NZ electorate, they've generally got it right over the years. The only time I reckon they didn't get it right was in '81 when Muldoon got reelected (thanks John Minto!). If National get in again, we'll be having another very centrist government - fine by me.

Snapper

Its quite possible we could have a very unstable National government with all the controversies swirling around it. If it transpires that the alleged transgressions by the Prime Ministers Department and others in the government become worse and involve John Key directly we could be looking at a constitutional crisis. Who knows how this will play out, but nothing can be ruled out

" he who sows the wind will reap the whirlwind"

Snapper
04-09-2014, 08:43 PM
You're right, it could play out like that but I think it would be a long shot. I just don't think I could handle David Cunliffe as a PM. I bet he can't even play golf and he'd probably call the queen 'mate'.

Seriously though, the Labour lineup is seriously deficient in talent, most of them hate Cunliffe, and then you've got the Greens/IM and possibly Winnie involved.

Sgt Pepper
04-09-2014, 09:54 PM
You're right, it could play out like that but I think it would be a long shot. I just don't think I could handle David Cunliffe as a PM. I bet he can't even play golf and he'd probably call the queen 'mate'.

Seriously though, the Labour lineup is seriously deficient in talent, most of them hate Cunliffe, and then you've got the Greens/IM and possibly Winnie involved.

I well recall the Australian Constitutional crisis of 1975 which ended up with the very popular Gough Whitlam being dismissed by the Governor General John Kerr. These things can happen. I just don't think post the election its back to business as usual, not by a long shot. Very interesting times indeed, most unusual for our usually stable democracy

fungus pudding
05-09-2014, 07:11 AM
I well recall the Australian Constitutional crisis of 1975 which ended up with the very popular Gough Whitlam being dismissed by the Governor General John Kerr. These things can happen. I just don't think post the election its back to business as usual, not by a long shot. Very interesting times indeed, most unusual for our usually stable democracy

Things are likely to remain stable. The biggest threat to stability will be Peters if National have only Winston First to rely on. The best result we can hope for is to mirror the Stuff poll published this morning which sees Winston First dead and buried. Even Labour supporters will undoubtedly agree once they get their heads around the fact that the govt. will be National or National led.

craic
05-09-2014, 07:14 AM
Todays Herald digi-poll shows that the scene is unchanged by the "revelations" of the last week or so. Key thinks that the public are sick of the hesaid/shesaid rubbish and he is probably right. It seems that the botttom-dwellers have overestimated their own importance in the scheme of things. When the fat man gets together with Julian Assange to deliver his fatal blow on John Key just days before polling day, he will find that the target has gone and all his powder is wet.

fungus pudding
05-09-2014, 07:24 AM
Todays Herald digi-poll shows that the scene is unchanged by the "revelations" of the last week or so. Key thinks that the public are sick of the hesaid/shesaid rubbish and he is probably right. It seems that the botttom-dwellers have overestimated their own importance in the scheme of things. When the fat man gets together with Julian Assange to deliver his fatal blow on John Key just days before polling day, he will find that the target has gone and all his powder is wet.

And a very high percentage of votes will have been cast.

craic
05-09-2014, 07:42 AM
Agreed. We're going in on Saturday on the way to the club and will have decided the fate of the nation by noon on that day - unless my wife decides that she hasn't got enough elastic or something and decrees that a side trip to Aaron's Emporium is more important.

Banksie
05-09-2014, 07:47 AM
unless my wife decides that she hasn't got enough elastic or something and decrees that a side trip to Aaron's Emporium is more important.

lol - and so the fate of this great nation hangs by an elastic ;)

Sgt Pepper
05-09-2014, 08:25 AM
Things are likely to remain stable. The biggest threat to stability will be Peters if National have only Winston First to rely on. The best result we can hope for is to mirror the Stuff poll published this morning which sees Winston First dead and buried. Even Labour supporters will undoubtedly agree once they get their heads around the fact that the govt. will be National or National led.

Winston is in the twilight of his career( not sure how old he is exactly) NZ First wont survive without him and no doubt Winston will be considering his place in history.

fungus pudding
05-09-2014, 08:36 AM
Winston is in the twilight of his career( not sure how old he is exactly) NZ First wont survive without him and no doubt Winston will be considering his place in history.

He's nearly 70s. Being Maori, smoker, drinker of note, that's a hell of an age to reach. The stats are all against him. You are right - it's a hero worshipping cult that will fade with him, but I'd prefer he got under 5% and went now.

Major von Tempsky
05-09-2014, 08:59 AM
Desperation strikes Belge.

Winston First is a totally unprincipled opportunist, he's against anything that being against might possibly bring him a vote in the opinion polls.
His camp followers to Parliament are totally moronic insignificant underachievers.
He didn't want the "baubles of power" so he became Foreign Affairs Minister. He told big obvious porkies in the Owen Glenn business. The only two things he has consistently followed is being against immigration and being against land sales. Xenophobic, unreasoning, hysterical populism. Sooner he departs the better.

craic
05-09-2014, 09:44 AM
Once again this page is peppered with constant posts that are in my "blocked sender list" Maybe the poster is frustrated to the point where he will again warrant censure? I want the pleasure of actually reading one of his post safter National win.

777
05-09-2014, 09:47 AM
And you're not blinkered Belge?

Any of that violent protest you talk about will be initiated by the likes of you who won't accept that democracy decided the outcome on Sept. 20th.

Your second sentence indicates that you now accept that it will be a National led government. It has taken a while.

You are at least entertaining and are becoming more rattled as that date closes in.

Can't wait for next weeks episodes.

PS Just removed you from my ignore list for the run up.

fungus pudding
05-09-2014, 09:51 AM
Once again this page is peppered with constant posts that are in my "blocked sender list" Maybe the poster is frustrated to the point where he will again warrant censure? I want the pleasure of actually reading one of his post safter National win.

Mine is the same. Only difference is mine will remain blocked even after the election.

couta1
05-09-2014, 09:58 AM
Would the "people" you refer to be National party supporters? Burying their heads in the sand again? ... The rest of us are thoroughly stinking p1ssing angry and absolutely outraged at National's antics that extend to the highest levels ... and we want blood ... and then justice!.

Geez! Imagine if one of the people attacked by National's attack dogs was a family member - wife, husband, brother, sister, mother, father, etc. or a close friend?

And you say that's okay? Shame on you! Have you no moral fibre or sense of fair play? Any vote for National is condoning such behaviour. This is how banana republics start! We surrender our values to the hands of political low-lifes!

Anybody but National. And no party that isn't promising 100% that there'll be a thorough, complete and impartial investigation will ever get my vote! ...

Anybody but National!!!!! And a full investigation to follow!

Time for a BIG change !!! Yeah right so you'd be happy to see Kim.Con and his cronies plus Mana have any meaningful say on our future, now that's absolute corruption right there.

Banksie
05-09-2014, 10:00 AM
Once again this page is peppered with constant posts that are in my "blocked sender list" Maybe the poster is frustrated to the point where he will again warrant censure? I want the pleasure of actually reading one of his post safter National win.

Nah - belg is mostly behaving lately.

couta1
05-09-2014, 10:10 AM
Nah - belg is mostly behaving lately.
He has to otherwise threads get deleted by admin once he crosses over a certain line, happened a few times this year.

macduffy
05-09-2014, 10:38 AM
Trying to be objective about this it seems to me that this morning's opinion polls showing support for Labour slipping, despite a few blows to the govt these last few weeks, might indicate concern among Labour voters that returning their party can only occur with a coalition of disparate groups of which they disapprove. The alternative then is to switch to the other centralist party, National, as the lesser of two evils. The sort of "devil that you know"!

Joshuatree
05-09-2014, 10:49 AM
Gordon McLauchlan: Why are our politicians sleepwalking?5:00 AM Thursday Sep 4, 2014187 comments (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11318596#comment-form)


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Do I see people who have integrity and ready to take us into the future with imaginative policies? Yeah? Nah.

http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/201436/4ae0a5a71fb49eb5485e9b4af6fedb10e6caa5b0_620x311.j pgJohn Key is captain of a ship that's lost its way. Photo / Greg Bowker
A blogger who has openly declared that politics and politicians are necessarily "despicable" and who peppers his (formerly) private messages with obscenities is (was?) a mutually accepted "close friend" of the former Minister of Justice.
The former minister made it clear in undisputed emails between them that she believed not in "utu", which is open revenge, but in a furtive, underhand version of getting your own back "double".
The blogger and the former minister were involved with a group, members of which appeared not to mind damaging the lives of people with whom they disagreed and who were frustrating their agenda.
Among that group was a government employee close to the Prime Minister, who later worked for the National Party and who has made no attempt to defend accusations of complicity.

The Prime Minister also had "regular" phone conversations with the blogger.
That much, anyway, seems to be incontrovertible.
How much the Prime Minister knew of all these machinations is open to question, but he was captain of the ship that has so badly lost its way and if he was just trustingly negligent does he thus escape any blame?
What flabbergasts me is that he and, worse, most political columnists are telling me this is all a distraction and I should put it aside and concentrate on party policies.
Am I some sort of weird retro-moralist who finds all this disgraceful, inexcusable and the main political issue of the day? The only way to get to the bottom of it is a full inquiry conducted with judicial rigour; so, of course, that won't happen because too many people don't want to get to the bottom of it.
Okay, I did decide not to be distracted and rather to consider party policies. What I found was mostly various forms of political somnambulism set in a world in turmoil.
The Government is sleepwalking into the future accompanied by some people who are hungry and despondent down on their hands and knees, and followed by the Maori Party picking up scraps.
The Labour Party is also sleepwalking and with eyes closed can't even see the future.
The Conservative Party is sleepwalking backwards into the past; Act is sleepwalking into the jungle; United Future is sleepwalking in gradually diminishing circles before it disappears up its own agenda; but the Internet-Mana Party is walking, alertly, into the ether where burglars don't need balaclavas.
New Zealand First is wide awake, trying to repel boarders from the future; and the Greens are the same old unfathomable Greens.
So, how do we stand as a nation? In 1969, as a journalist, I covered a National Development Conference organised by our last far-sighted government, led by Keith Holyoake. The conference was held because Britain was joining Europe and we were to fend economically for ourselves.
The most compelling recommendations were that future prosperity for us lay in adding value to our primary products. The advice was ignored.
I have been around for many decades and for the first time see New Zealand as a sad, subservient, rudderless little country in which I have no pride.
Let me explain. The United States used to buy up small Central American countries and arrange for the locals to plant and harvest bananas on low wages before the fruit and the profits were shipped away. They were called, disparagingly, "banana republics". We are already a "pine log republic" and there is still a chance we will become a "milk powder republic".
Do I see people of integrity, far-sightedness and who are, yes, politically shrewd, available to take this country on to imaginative, independent policies through intelligent, flexible, long-term planning?
Yeah? Nah.

Thanks belg it is a very good article and i share your frustration at how passive and possum in the headlights most of us are. I put that down partly to Crosby-Textor. Im pasting part of elZorrows (thanks) post here

I think it's likely that the two-pronged strategy of promoting National as an easy-going government not going too far into gutter politics, while passing some of the damaging internal information of government onto right-wing bloggers, came from Crosby-Textor. Just the idea (originally from the USA), and then some people in the top National circle had to implement it. Looks like they did this with a passion.

Meanwhile, the core work that Crosby-Textor would have given John Key's team, would be to take those nagging doubts that many of us have about, say, Labour and the Greens, amplify them so they are almost ridiculous, and then repeat them on every occasion until they become "real".

By belittling and challenging every step the opposition took using the social and press media, the National Govt have been able to implement some neo-liberal agendas like selling off state assets, borrowing heavily on behalf of the state, while ensuring high-wealth individuals do better than average, and that inequality tends to increase. They have reinforced themselves with positive messages, but all the while the Statistics office and Treasury have recorded (but not generally exposed) some damaging-looking metrics.

Says it all> unfort the other reason is Labour are not performing that well; and Johns keys camp had done their homework so well Cunliffe was a sitting duck re the cap gains ambush. A lot of confused people out there don't make for assertive voters. Pull yourself together Labour Org and get your policies across clearly
and you will close the gap.

Joshuatree
05-09-2014, 11:18 AM
I share your frustration belg. I really appreciate you posts and knowledge it is very informing and i just hope like hell the truth comes out as it usually does. The facts that you present will always be ignored by those that don't want to hear it, that aren't open to truth and morals(national at all costs) or those that fear change. Cheers JT

777
05-09-2014, 11:40 AM
No blinkers here Belge but thanks for not disappointing me with your comments.

westerly
05-09-2014, 11:49 AM
As a regular follower of sharetrader I get the impression that this thread is dominated by older probably retired men with fairly fixed views on politics and policy.
As is usual at this stage in an election I have not made up my mind on who to vote for. I know who I won't vote for. National, Act, Mana, or Dotcom 's party.
The Labour, Greens, and NZ First all have some policies I agree with – even National but I am firmly of the view they have too many far right members in the party which makes them dangerous to the NZ way of life.
Since the days of Regan and Thatcher it has become obvious there is a movement to reduce Govt. services, eliminate the power of the unions, lower taxation, remove welfare and generally allow the wealthy to retain there rightful place in society.
Hager has exposed the methods used by the far right of National to destroy the credibility of anyone considered a danger.
Labour has yet to show it has recovered from the influence of Douglas but there are signs they are becoming more responsive to the needs of the average New Zealander.
So there you go. Interesting times.

westerly

macduffy
05-09-2014, 12:37 PM
Hi westerly. An interesting perspective there and I agree with a lot of it. Not sure about the Douglas influence bit though. Labour managed to slough off Rogernomics - or, live it down sufficiently to win in the Helen Clark era. Just a strong leader and weak opposition at the time? Or other factors?

Major von Tempsky
05-09-2014, 12:47 PM
The "tyranny of the majority" is the necessary "price" of democracy. The only alternative is "the tyranny of the few" who think they know better than the majority and are always ready to tell them what to do. Always "knowing better than the majority" is a type of mental maladjustment. Letting these people be in charge of society is the ultimate disaster because there are no checks and balances against them and they will resolutely refuse to give up power because "they know better".
People such as Belge.
I warrant that the majority get it wrong far less than the elitist few including inverted snobs like Belge.

Vive Democracy!

ari
05-09-2014, 01:02 PM
The "tyranny of the majority" is the necessary "price" of democracy. The only alternative is "the tyranny of the few" who think they know better than the majority and are always ready to tell them what to do. Always "knowing better than the majority" is a type of mental maladjustment. Letting these people be in charge of society is the ultimate disaster because there are no checks and balances against them and they will resolutely refuse to give up power because "they know better".
People such as Belge.
I warrant that the majority get it wrong far less than the elitist few including inverted snobs like Belge.

Vive Democracy!

Well put Major... even the 'few' should be able to understand democracy, it's really quite simple..........

Banksie
05-09-2014, 01:08 PM
This made me smile:

One solution he proffered to reduce greenhouse gas emissions included the development of a flock of low methane producing sheep...

but I looked it up and it is true, we are leading the world in the quest to create low-emission (fartless) sheep.

All we have to do now is work on creating low-bs politicians ;)

Banksie
05-09-2014, 01:24 PM
Well put Major... even the 'few' should be able to understand democracy, it's really quite simple..........

It is not quite that simple...there are many cases in history where the few were the first to see that an idea was immoral or antiquated, take slavery as an example.

Sgt Pepper
05-09-2014, 03:39 PM
Belg

Assuming that a National Government will be reelected I am of the opinion that some dormant ideologically driven policies that have been on hold will be resuscitated. By way of example
1. Opening up ACC for private competition
2. Selling Kiwibank
3. Further liberation of Industrial relations legislation

These are examples that come to mind, but there are many others.
The compelling driver will be an analysis of risk versus opportunity. The risk is electoral backlash and the opportunity is entrenching agendas which deliver payback to wealthy supporters who want to see more neo-liberal political capital in the bank before the party is over. The pressure WILL come on to deliver their wish list comprehensively.

artemis
05-09-2014, 03:39 PM
Good rises in MRP. MELCA, GNE today. Looks like the market is pricing in no Kiwipower.

Snapper
05-09-2014, 03:53 PM
Talked before about the lack of talent in the Labour ranks, now this! It might be Labour's "Gilmore" moment...

Fri, 05 Sep 2014
INTRODUCING LABOUR’S SELWYN CANDIDATE

inShare
0 Gordon Dickson, who wrote to our reporter Lloyd Burr telling him to "grow a pair".
By Lloyd Burr

I get told I’m biased all the time. People on Twitter tell me I’m a Tory one day, then tell me I’m a Labour insider the next.

Others heckle you after interviews on the campaign trail if you’ve asked tough questions. Comments on Facebook are another story.

But I’ve never been accused of bias by a politician or candidate, not publicly or in writing anyway.

Which is why I found it astounding when an email from Labour’s Selwyn candidate Gordon Dickson appeared in my inbox this afternoon. Wow.

He calls me lazy, tells me I’ve failed as a journalist and finishes by telling me to “grow a pair”.

Long story short: I first met Mr Dickson in Christchurch two days ago when Labour leader David Cunliffe was voting early.

He approached me and ordered me to interview him, before Labour’s Ilam candidate James Macbeth Dann swiftly interrupted and ordered him away and not to give out his business cards “because they are not authorised”.

Later, I approached Mr Dickson to see what he wanted to say. He replied “Ask the Prime Minister if he has faith in Anne Tolley, Minister of Police. Thank you”. He walked off.

When he refused to elaborate, I told him I wasn’t prepared to ask questions blind. He accused me of being a National Party insider – but left with my business card.

Two days later I got this astonishing email.

Here’s the letter, verbatim – complete with original spelling and formatting:

Attention My L Burr

Political Reporter

Radiolive

Press gallery

Parliament Buildings

Molesworth Street

Wellington

Dear Lazy,

Thank you for your time the other day when at the early voting with M P David Cunliffe and myself in Riccarton Christchurch At which you at the second attempt managed to recorded my questions of the National Party's candidate and current Prime Minister John Keys relating to his confidence or otherwise of another cabinet Minister. This one being the Minister of Police Hon. Anne Tolley of Ohope Beach in the Eastern Bay of Plenty and National Party candidate for the East Coast electorate. Anne Tolley is contesting the seat against current Labour List M P Moana Mackey

As I havent heard back from you with John Keys answers I can only assume you have failed to ask the Prime Minister and hence seek the reasons? To fail to be carry out such a simple task begs the question are you unable, unwilling, lazy or perhaps protecting this National Party candidate from public scrutiny

Please remember John has had to accept the resignation of one Cabinet Minister recently. A M P Judith Collins Perhaps that has escaped your attention Lazy

Perhaps you are lazy? To help you rediscover your previously perceived role in our society i. e the "fourth estate" I attach a copy of my formalised request already in the possession of the Prime Minister and the National Board of Directors as well

Kindly prove you are not lazy and not afraid to ask a reasonable request of John Key by another Political party Give him the opportunity and please do not yourself, like last time tell me "of course he will have confidence in the Minister of Police" (he said that about the Minister of Justice) Let him answer please Lazy

When you fail to do a reasonable job of reporting in a fair and even basis is there an avenue of redress for members of the public to explore? Perhaps you are a member of an association or similar Kindly advise Lazy

I await your response and as you will see on my blog this is not the first failure by the media to protect our society from dirty politics

Have a nice weekend and grow a pair



Regards Gordon

Gordon J Dickson

NEW ZEALAND LABOUR PARTY SELWYN ELECTORATE CANDIDATE IN THE 2014 PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS

Authorised by Gordon John Dickson 6a Kidman Street, Rolleston Canterbury New Zealand

How on earth did this man make it through Labour’s selection process and win the nomination to contest the Selwyn seat?