PDA

View Full Version : If National wins ...



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 [22] 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61

fungus pudding
05-09-2014, 04:18 PM
Talked before about the lack of talent in the Labour ranks, now this! It might be Labour's "Gilmore" moment...

How on earth did this man make it through Labour’s selection process and win the nomination to contest the Selwyn seat?

Imagine the runners up!

Major von Tempsky
05-09-2014, 04:19 PM
It is not quite that simple...there are many cases in history where the few were the first to see that an idea was immoral or antiquated, take slavery as an example.

But it is the right of the majority elected party to do that. And if the majority don't like how it pans out then they are quite entitled to kick that party out. Its called democracy.

If they don't Banksie et al, then you need to closely re-examine your own pre-conceptions and assumptions and in the words of the well known quote "Consider I pray thee, whether in the bowels of Christ you are wrong brother".

What you are not entitled to do, Banksie et al, is to stop the majority elected party from implementing the platform it was elected on.

Major von Tempsky
05-09-2014, 04:31 PM
Made me laugh ... (and this is specially for Hugh, aka MVT)

The National party's Climate Change Minister Tim Groser said he didn't expect to see a single National voter in the audience when he walked into the [the hall] which was the inaugural Climate Voter Debate last night and left confirming that was the case. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11319108)

Mr Groser said he walked into the debate on the assumption there would not be a single National voter in the audience. "And I'm glad to say that nothing tonight that's happened has [changed my mind]."

So even the National Party recognises that its supporters are bigots. Most amusing. But mainly sad. :(

Just smile and wave, boys. Smile and wave #TeamKey

BTW ... For those not following the TPPA (Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement) - yes the one that's being bitterly criticised by all parties except National and ACT because of the secrecy and the potential for significant loss of NZ's sovereignty - Its Tim Groser that is snuggling up to the americans. So not surprising that he'd poo-poo climate change. Obviously, he's following the American line ... Or what's already been agreed in the TPPA?

But then Belge (aka Algernon) it's entirely possible that that audience is in a small minority of the NZ population and that most people are climate sceptics, atheists or agnostics. Certainly if you follow Western public opinion polls climate concerns have gone from an issue in the top few concerns to only being mentioned very low down in voters concerns. The fact that a few nutters are quite hysterical about it, does not mean it is a top issue or has majority support. Its fair to say that most of the electorate wish it would go away or they could each give $10 to solve but if you gave them a choice of a better house or a DOC with 100,000 employees they would choose a better house, health, education, more leisure & & every time over wildly exaggerated environmental concerns. Take fracking, been going on in Taranaki for 10 years with no ill effects and may have caused one or two minor tremors overseas of about 2.5. Anyone who lives in Christchurch can tell you can't even feel that! Nor has there been any water poisoning in Taranaki or poisonous chemical spills in Taranaki. Its a boondoggle.

fungus pudding
05-09-2014, 04:40 PM
Take fracking, been going on in Taranaki for 10 years with no ill effects and may have caused one or two minor tremors overseas of about 2.5. Anyone who lives in Christchurch can tell you can't even feel that! Nor has there been any water poisoning in Taranaki or poisonous chemical spills in Taranaki. Its a boondoggle.

It's been a lot longer than 10 years - at least 25 I'd say.

fungus pudding
05-09-2014, 05:59 PM
Agreed. We're going in on Saturday on the way to the club and will have decided the fate of the nation by noon on that day - unless my wife decides that she hasn't got enough elastic or something and decrees that a side trip to Aaron's Emporium is more important.


I voted today. I was surprised to see a steady trickle going through the booth. I thought it would be quiet.

elZorro
06-09-2014, 07:22 AM
I'm surprised that someone that claims to be as astute you would be surprised. There are about 13% of the voters undecided. If they all decide one way ... It's called a landslide. And some of your National heroes are likely to be facing jail time. :)

Certainly Labour people are encouraging early voting, and it should favour the left, as some of their voters are less mobile.

But I'm very worried about the new National Party video I was directed to on the web, I think this could put a dent in someone's chances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6WUYzLaEOo

fungus pudding
06-09-2014, 07:56 AM
Certainly Labour people are encouraging early voting, and it should favour the left, as some of their voters are less mobile.

But I'm very worried about the new National Party video I was directed to on the web, I think this could put a dent in someone's chances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6WUYzLaEOo

Yes, that's the sort of pathetic corn that will damage Key's opposition - as if they're not wounded enough. Tax cut proposals to be announced soon eZ. That will be another hammer blow to Labour/Greens. Or is it Greens/Labour now?

fungus pudding
06-09-2014, 08:11 AM
My wish list for Tax cuts.

How about eliminating the first step of 10.5% making all income up to $14000 tax free.
Changing 2cnd step (currently 14000 to 48000 at 17.5%) to become 14,000 to 50,000 at 17.5%
Then all income above 50,000 to be at 33%.
I'm a simple soul, and that's simple and workable.
That's well within the govt's ability with predicted surplus, and benefits the lower paid more than the higher paid.

That should suit everyone except those simpletons who would rather the govt. tax someone else higher then spend that to buy them food for their kids etc.

elZorro
06-09-2014, 08:32 AM
My wish list for Tax cuts.

How about eliminating the first step of 10.5% making all income up to $14000 tax free.
Changing 2cnd step (currently 14000 to 48000 at 17.5%) to become 14,000 to 50,000 at 17.5%
Then all income above 50,000 to be at 33%.
I'm a simple soul, and that's simple and workable.
That's well within the govt's ability with predicted surplus, and benefits the lower paid more than the higher paid.

That should suit everyone except those simpletons who would rather the govt. tax someone else higher then spend that to buy them food for their kids etc.

FP, it's a small difference between 33% and 39%, and they'll still engage tax accountants at 33%. Tax scales might have more than three steps, but there are lookup tables for that, and it doesn't impact most people. You are being disingenuous again, if you think that the lowest paid wouldn't pay any taxes under your scheme. They will of course be paying GST on most things, fuel and energy taxes, etc.

But I do think that the current nil threshold for income tax is crazy. Decades ago it was $3,000, and with inflation it's probably now near $14,000 equivalent as you say. This would let businesses pay students with holiday jobs, cash in hand, no PAYE issues. At the moment, they are being taxed as though they were going to earn that money all through the year. Most of them probably don't claim back the tax portion they are owed, by doing an annual return. I always claimed, good practice if you have gaps in income during the year.

p.s. I didn't think some of you would like the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6WUYzLaEOo). It's mean, but accurate though.

craic
06-09-2014, 08:41 AM
Three polls in three days - all put National governing alone - now that would be enough to put Cunliffe off going to the All Blacks match. On the other hand he's down the West Coast propping up his support there. If Labour were to be dumped by the Coasters it would be like the Pope being thrown out of Rome. Today we will vote and my wife assures me she already has enough elastic. Having difficulty rating all the slow horses today.

elZorro
06-09-2014, 09:28 AM
Yes, I agree Belgarion, MVT has scary opinions. Maybe it is a National MP trait.

On TV3's "The Nation" just now, David Parker and Bill English were being interviewed on the economy. David did a great job. I'm very pleased he's well up in the Labour camp.

Bill English, on the other hand, has no new policies for the economy, even though he was quizzed really hard about it. That must be the party line, stay the course. Too simple. Then he was asked several times if he personally felt that the access of private Labour Party details from their website, including private credit card details, by a National party employee, was wrong. He refused to answer that question. Refused! but not in so many words. Le batard!

Major von Tempsky
06-09-2014, 09:29 AM
Well Algernon how are you today?

The platform that like all other democracies we are governed by parties elected by General Elections, in our case every 3 years. The exception is Referenda and force majeure Revolutions (not relevant in our case). We are not governed by public opinion polls, either scientific or unscientific (the ones running on the Internet such as Compass TV1).

It is also more complicated than you make out, every issue needs to be weighted by the importance that the public attaches to it - global warming for example has plunged and plunged over several years in the importance that the public attach to it. So if there are say 20 issues and the public puts asset sales at 19 and global warming at 20 then the fact that a bare majority might be against asset sales at a particular point in time is fairly meaningless.
In any case the asset sale floats of 49% of the shares, leaving 51% in public ownership and control, have gone off successfully, there is no visible agitation for the return of Mighty River Power to total government ownership and in any case Cunliffe says he can't afford to buy it back so it is effectively a dead issue. So Algernon, you need to find some LIVE issues.

Snapper
06-09-2014, 11:44 AM
No, didn't read the email. Got a link?

Snapper
06-09-2014, 11:51 AM
Sounds a bit like government by referendum to me. Maybe you should vote conservative! I expect governments to lead and sometimes make decisions that the majority don't agree with. With that logic there would be no waitangi tribunal, gay sex would still be illegal and we could still smack our children.

Snapper
06-09-2014, 12:02 PM
I'referringng an OMG moment,
Snapper. You posted the email! Are you saying you didn't read it?

This is the original ... http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Introducing-Labours-Selwyn-candidate/tabid/615/articleID/53976/Default.aspx

Sorry, I thought you were referring to some other email. Yes, sure did read it hence my original post. Thought it was hilarious and yet another example of the Labour election debacle.

Also saw that Matt McCarten has been emailing Whaleoil as well but David doesn't think it's necessary to release those emails. It just gets better and better!

Snapper
06-09-2014, 12:05 PM
No got it from the radio live site

Major von Tempsky
06-09-2014, 12:19 PM
Ok, here's one for EZ, Belge/Algernon has become even more boring than usual.

From today's Press pC17 - "NZ climbing ladder on competitiveness"

"NZ has improved its global competitiveness ranking and extended its lead over Australia, according to an annual survey by the Word Economic Forum.
The country is ranked 17th on the Global Competitiveness Index, up one place from last year when it broke into the top 20 for the first time. This is NZ's highest position to date, and represents an overall improvement of 8 places since 2012.
In contrast Australia's highly restrictive labour markets continued to drag on the country's competitiveness ranking, which slipped well short of the 15th position it occupied in 2009."

There's a lot more to discomfit the Labour grovelers but I have to nick off to tennis right now. Somebody might like to paste a link otherwise I'll do it later.

salut! le Commandant.

Snapper
06-09-2014, 12:26 PM
Check it out if you like but it was from the radio live site.
As to the national party thing, no way! I'll give them my party vote this time but it's more anti Labour than pro national. Its obvious now that the decision to get rid of David Shearer has cost them the election. Maybe next time when cunliffe is history...

fungus pudding
06-09-2014, 12:31 PM
Sounds a bit like government by referendum to me. Maybe you should vote conservative! I expect governments to lead and sometimes make decisions that the majority don't agree with. With that logic there would be no waitangi tribunal, gay sex would still be illegal and we could still smack our children.

You have to laugh at Craig banging on about binding referendums. He gives the example of the number of MPs. a perfect example of why govts. should govern. not the great unwashed. Fact is when MMP has been voted for (twice) the punters are voting for 120 MPs. 5 minutes later they sign petitions to reduce the number they've just approved. Another fact - we have fewer MPs now per capita than at any previous time. The only good thing about Craig is it may mean national do not have to negotiate or coalesce with Winston First after the election, which might give us an unstable govt.; particularly with his ridiculous and quite unworkable 'bottom lines'. There's probably not enough baubles in National's war chest to drown them all.

Snapper
06-09-2014, 12:49 PM
Not sure who I prefer, at least Winnie's a known quantity, unlike Craig. Might be being a little presumptuous here because dotcom's still got his bomb to release the week before voting. You never know, key might be an al quaeda sleeper agent. Anything less and it's going to be a big yawn!

fungus pudding
06-09-2014, 01:03 PM
Not sure who I prefer, at least Winnie's a known quantity, unlike Craig. Might be being a little presumptuous here because dotcom's still got his bomb to release the week before voting. You never know, key might be an al quaeda sleeper agent. Anything less and it's going to be a big yawn!


A known quantity indeed. That's the worry; arrogant as hell to negotiate with. Neither main party would consider his demands over GST, which of course are a 'bottom line'. He's got a couple of others that couldn't work, so has Craig, but I think Craig's lot might be easier or more 'malleable'.

elZorro
06-09-2014, 02:54 PM
Ok, here's one for EZ, Belge/Algernon has become even more boring than usual.

From today's Press pC17 - "NZ climbing ladder on competitiveness"

"NZ has improved its global competitiveness ranking and extended its lead over Australia, according to an annual survey by the Word Economic Forum.
The country is ranked 17th on the Global Competitiveness Index, up one place from last year when it broke into the top 20 for the first time. This is NZ's highest position to date, and represents an overall improvement of 8 places since 2012.
In contrast Australia's highly restrictive labour markets continued to drag on the country's competitiveness ranking, which slipped well short of the 15th position it occupied in 2009."

There's a lot more to discomfit the Labour grovelers but I have to nick off to tennis right now. Somebody might like to paste a link otherwise I'll do it later.

salut! le Commandant.

Do you mean this link MVT?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11119356

My take on the rise of three positions to overtake Australia on average, is that National have effectively clamped down on wages by setting signals to have more unemployed, higher external debt, and Australia has been paying better wages for many years. The NZ Initiative predictably applauded the result.

But later on in the article they and Business NZ state that to further improve our position, we need more skilled people, stronger links between business and education providers.

R&D tax credits for all SMEs, the KiwiBuild programme (training, skills, tooling up), and probably many other Labour policies, will help in this regard. Maybe in the short term, higher wages will reduce competitiveness, but we need to be exporting higher value goods, and you don't tend to do that on low wages.

In any case, this particular metric doesn't look at homelessness, unemployment levels, GDP per capita, budget deficits, poverty lines, changes in external borrowing, the number of SMEs, the number of manufacturers, all of which have gotten worse since National took office. The Crown has also achieved a lower net asset value since 2008. 6 years, and we've gone backwards.

Maybe National do need to crow about anything which has the slightest chance of being an improvement.

westerly
06-09-2014, 03:06 PM
Ok, here's one for EZ, Belge/Algernon has become even more boring than usual.

From today's Press pC17 - "NZ climbing ladder on competitiveness"

"NZ has improved its global competitiveness ranking and extended its lead over Australia, according to an annual survey by the Word Economic Forum.
The country is ranked 17th on the Global Competitiveness Index, up one place from last year when it broke into the top 20 for the first time. This is NZ's highest position to date, and represents an overall improvement of 8 places since 2012.
In contrast Australia's highly restrictive labour markets continued to drag on the country's competitiveness ranking, which slipped well short of the 15th position it occupied in 2009."

There's a lot more to discomfit the Labour grovelers but I have to nick off to tennis right now. Somebody might like to paste a link otherwise I'll do it later.

salut! le Commandant.

Wouldn't take much notice of the ranking based on information supplied by the NZ Initative to the World Economic Forum. Have there own agenda which is probably not in NZ's best interests.

westerly

elZorro
06-09-2014, 04:59 PM
Thanks for the down-date Belgarion. That video I posted earlier - Labour people have been having a good look at it - all driven by social media, the viewing count has gone from 2,000 to over 4,000 today.

Perhaps prompted by the glancing hit on David Cunliffe over the CGT, Labour have updated data on their website. Here's a link. https://www.labour.org.nz/sites/default/files/issues/capital_gains_tax.pdf

Your private home is never subject to CGT, even if you leave it to children, who then live in it. If they choose to rent it out, and sell later, they'll need to pay CGT from roughly the time they took possession of it. If the bach stays in the family, it's still not subject to CGT. No other country adds the family home into a CGT, take note FP and Belgarion. That will not happen. The rate has been kept low at 15% because it's recognised that there is a risk in holding assets like this, and there will be no attempt to index capital gains with inflation. It has been problematic in other countries like Australia, too complex. This means that, yes, the capital gain that you could be taxed on with a CGT, will generally be partly due to inflation, but the tax rate is low to help take that into account.

Snapper
06-09-2014, 05:53 PM
Really? Then why not vote for one of the other parties? E.g. like NZ First so they hold the balance of power? (Just teasing snapper ... there's a fishy smell coming from people who really support National but are scared to admit that in light of recent weeks. Its okay. I'd be very embarrassed if I was a National party supporter and I'd be telling all sorts of fibs to hide it.)

Jeez, Belg, I don't think I'm in Winston's demographic yet! No, its party vote National, electorate vote Maori Party (just because I'm not that enamoured with the local National MP).

Re dirty politics, why didn't Nicky Hager, Whaledump et al release the information when they obtained it rather than waiting until now? They obviously did it to derail National's re-election prospects. Well, big fail! I think most NZers see it as a pretty cynical ploy and although they got a scalp (Judith Collins, good riddance) we're back to talking about the differences between the parties, at last, and it's really no contest.

The Labour Party have been doing a lot of name-calling lately but it was very amusing to hear David Cunliffe talking about the CGT to Duncan Garner on Radio Live on Friday. When asked if they had talked to the IRD about the technical feasibility and capacity of the IRD to handle CGT he said yes, they had talked to the IRD and it was all good. Radio Live asked the IRD about it and received a response from them saying that it had never been discussed with the Labour Party (obviously the IRD are all closet Nat supporters)! Cunliffe is turning into a joke. He proposed the CGT tax 3 years ago, has absolutely no idea how it is going to be implemented and is making it up as he goes. Sad!

Sgt Pepper
06-09-2014, 06:47 PM
You have to laugh at Craig banging on about binding referendums. He gives the example of the number of MPs. a perfect example of why govts. should govern. not the great unwashed. Fact is when MMP has been voted for (twice) the punters are voting for 120 MPs. 5 minutes later they sign petitions to reduce the number they've just approved. Another fact - we have fewer MPs now per capita than at any previous time. The only good thing about Craig is it may mean national do not have to negotiate or coalesce with Winston First after the election, which might give us an unstable govt.; particularly with his ridiculous and quite unworkable 'bottom lines'. There's probably not enough baubles in National's war chest to drown them all.

National must love negotiating with Peter Dunne, second after second he will hold firm. He has many principles,and if National doesn't like them he has others. But at the end of the day there is only one thing dear old Mr Commonsense requires... a Cabinet Ministers salary.

Are we not lucky to live in a land and be governed by people with such intelligence,integrity and talent

Snapper
06-09-2014, 10:30 PM
Nonsense, eh? Not too sure why you'd think I would make that up. Anyway, see for yourself. Listen to it 3.45 in on the Friday 5.15 Radio live audio.

Cameron Slater complained to police in January this year about a DOS attack so I presumed they got the info around that time.

winner69
07-09-2014, 04:56 AM
Looks like John didn't fix NZ after all, according to Aroha that is

Nice story, for Aroha but indictment on John

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10468960/Aroha-of-McGehan-Close-flees-NZ

Major von Tempsky
07-09-2014, 07:24 AM
Actually it's a monster coup for John and the National Party.

First of all the overall movement between Oz and NZ has reversed to a flow to NZ so she's horribly and visibly exposed as a minority. Second it's an excellent result - if people decide not to vote for National and then permanently emigrate to Oz then National will be laughing all the way to the bank!

fungus pudding
07-09-2014, 07:43 AM
Nonsense, eh? Not too sure why you'd think I would make that up. Anyway, see for yourself. Listen to it 3.45 in on the Friday 5.15 Radio live audio.

Cameron Slater complained to police in January this year about a DOS attack so I presumed they got the info around that time.

Not sure what your post refers to (why not reply with quote?) but if it's about Duncan Garner outing Cunliffe for his out and out lying, then, yes; I heard him play the audio of Cunliffe then read the response from IRD. Just wasn't Cunliffe's week.

elZorro
07-09-2014, 09:02 AM
Looks like John didn't fix NZ after all, according to Aroha that is

Nice story, for Aroha but indictment on John

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10468960/Aroha-of-McGehan-Close-flees-NZ

Yes, I read that too, W69, and I was going to make a comment on it. So John used Aroha for PR, sorted out a short-term job for her mother, but had nothing to do with her as far as keeping in touch with what happened to her, after the trip to Waitangi. If nothing else, he must have been well aware how useful she was in his campaign.

But now, years later, she is on far better pay in Aussie, in a job that I suspect relies more on a keenness to work, than tertiary education. She would not have achieved as much in NZ, most likely. If she has married an Australian, she won't see many of the family schooling issues that bring NZers back home when they have children wanting to get tertiary training.

And all of her normal costs: petrol, rent, food are cheaper over there, yet her pay is $38 an hour. Maybe that's why NZ is more 'competitive' than Australia? Because most NZers have to work very hard just to stay in the same place.

Also noted in the SST: telling comments from Chris Trotter in his column, while alongside, Matthew Hooton tries to pull the wool over our eyes about Nicky Hager's book being good for National's chances.

The main article says more about the rise of the bloggers. I've just been given "Totalitaria" by Ian Wishart for father's day, all about how new technology and IT are giving governments more power than ever before. Should be a good read.

fungus pudding
07-09-2014, 11:07 AM
I've just been given "Totalitaria" by Ian Wishart for father's day, all about how new technology and IT are giving governments more power than ever before. Should be a good read.

That is a worry. Wishart is a complete nutter, conspiracy theorist of the worst kind, uncontrolled god-botherer and as far as a spin doctor - worse than Slater.

artemis
07-09-2014, 11:32 AM
Looks like John didn't fix NZ after all, according to Aroha that is Nice story, for Aroha but indictment on John

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10468960/Aroha-of-McGehan-Close-flees-NZ

Another view posted today by David Farrar, with a few additional facts which don't show the journalist (Simon Day)or the SST in a good light:

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/09/recycling_a_three_year_old_story_to_attack_the_pm. html

winner69
07-09-2014, 11:55 AM
Another view posted today by David Farrar, with a few additional facts which don't show the journalist (Simon Day)or the SST in a good light:

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/09/recycling_a_three_year_old_story_to_attack_the_pm. html

Is that Farrar a good guy or a bad guy .....must be honest though as he says 'I aim not even a paid journalist'

winner69
07-09-2014, 12:03 PM
Farrar would be better off commenting on how to rein in female streakers at the rugby ....far more important ...somebody could have got hurt

artemis
07-09-2014, 12:05 PM
Is that Farrar a good guy or a bad guy .....must be honest though as he says 'I aim not even a paid journalist'

Up to readers to decide, but I will say although his colours are firmly nailed to the mast he is knowledgeable and fair minded. And not a ranter.

fungus pudding
07-09-2014, 12:23 PM
Another view posted today by David Farrar, with a few additional facts which don't show the journalist (Simon Day)or the SST in a good light:

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/09/recycling_a_three_year_old_story_to_attack_the_pm. html


You could hardly blame the paper. I'm sure they publish quite a lot without checking full facts or they'd never get the damn thing printed.
Interesting that so many people seem to have no interest in all the garbage flowing around at the moment judging by the numbers voting every day. I voted early just to stick it to Dotcom before his big announcement. It was either that or fly to Germany with a container load of money and tell all the Germans I want to change their government.

artemis
07-09-2014, 12:38 PM
You could hardly blame the paper. I'm sure they publish quite a lot without checking full facts or they'd never get the damn thing printed.
..... .

Actually I do blame the paper. It used to be, by its own account, the national paper of record. It seems to have dropped that now. Probably just as well.

blackcap
07-09-2014, 01:13 PM
Actually I do blame the paper. It used to be, by its own account, the national paper of record. It seems to have dropped that now. Probably just as well.

Just like Stuff had that rubbish piece on the Tongan prince who was "working his arse off" for a minimum wage, poor fellow. But he can boast a rolex, gold iphone and a 7 week holiday. Don't believe the tripe that stuff and the herald feed you.

Snapper
07-09-2014, 03:07 PM
Not sure what your post refers to (why not reply with quote?) but if it's about Duncan Garner outing Cunliffe for his out and out lying, then, yes; I heard him play the audio of Cunliffe then read the response from IRD. Just wasn't Cunliffe's week.

Yes, you've got it. The blatant BS just confirms for me that his intellect is no match for his misguided arrogance.

Snapper
07-09-2014, 03:16 PM
The polls are telling us that National supporter think such behaviour and abuse of power and process is all fine. But then most National supporters are doing what they're told by their "dear leaders" and not reading the book. Lambs to the slaughter.

And you'd be one I'd guess, Snapper. I.e. accepting its all a "left wing conspiracy" and not educating yourself, trusting to "dear leader". Yup - This is how banana republics form. And, dare I say it, how the National Socialist German Workers' Party got to seize power.

Come on Belg, what do they say about arguments that bring up the Nazi thing? Even if John Key grew a moustache and got a no. 1 haircut I still don't reckon he'd look too much like Adolf.

Sgt Pepper
07-09-2014, 05:34 PM
Hi Snapper

Well for this Social Democrat I have just read something which gives me some comfort and contentment amongst all the gloomy electoral forecasts for our side, and it came from an unexpected source.

The Scottish Independence Referendum polls are narrowing dramatically with the latest poll showing a majority will vote in favour for independence. There are two things which make me happy about this outcome if it transpires

1. If the Scottish electorate votes in favour then its all over for British PM David Cameron as Tory Party grandees are, according to the Times, preparing to roll him due to mismanagement of the "Scottish Issue".
Should/when this occurs poor old John Key wont have anyone as his photo op buddy anymore( apparently David Cameron is his friend, although I am not sure whether anyone has told David Cameron.

2 I will be entitled to a Scottish Passport (Scottish Grandmother)

Snapper
07-09-2014, 06:20 PM
Hi Snapper


2 I will be entitled to a Scottish Passport (Scottish Grandmother)

Same here! (Don't do it Scotland, the oil's running out!)

Snapper
07-09-2014, 06:34 PM
Um ... What's your username on Whale0il ?

Cross my heart, Belg, not me. I have seen all three blogs (Whaleoil, The Standard and Kiwiblog).Occassionally the comments can be a bit off but generally no worse than Stuff or the Herald. You can just about smell the bitter defeatism at The Standard(their opinion of the average voter is rapidly heading south) while there is a quite a lot of (maybe premature) gloating in the other two.

westerly
07-09-2014, 10:17 PM
Another view posted today by David Farrar, with a few additional facts which don't show the journalist (Simon Day)or the SST in a good light:

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/09/recycling_a_three_year_old_story_to_attack_the_pm. html

Interesting to analyse the like / dislike on the comments on this post. The National supporters like all the comments with few dislikes for those in favour. The one reply not agreeing with Farrar has no likes and plenty of dislikes. Looks to me as if the there is an organised National supporters group to actively discredit any opposition against National. Not just with Farrar but with all published media. Just politics I suppose

westerly

Kees
07-09-2014, 10:51 PM
Interesting to analyse the like / dislike on the comments on this post. The National supporters like all the comments with few dislikes for those in favour. The one reply not agreeing with Farrar has no likes and plenty of dislikes. Looks to me as if the there is an organised National supporters group to actively discredit any opposition against National. Not just with Farrar but with all published media. Just politics I suppose

westerly
This is interesting for all the Key supporters;http://www.thevinnyeastwoodshow.com/vinny-mr-news-eastwoods-blog/john-keys-real-past-exposed-must-see-please-share-6mins#ixzz3CPMO97DQ

Joshuatree
08-09-2014, 07:00 AM
Duplicate 1234567

Joshuatree
08-09-2014, 07:01 AM
Just another smear blogg; how accurate is it really. However its great to see the Ombudsman looking into Key and Co

Pressure on PM's office to name names

r (http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/Auckland/news/search/?operator=search&tag=Cameron%20Slater) |






UPDATED 6:50am: The Prime Minister may be forced to disclose who in his office was briefed about the release of SIS information to blogger Cameron Slater.
Last month Newstalk ZB released papers that indicated Mr Key had been directly briefed about the 2011 release that centred on information about SIS briefings given to then Labour leader Phil Goff.
The Prime Minister and former SIS director Warren Tucker then said the briefings were to the Prime Minister's Office, not Mr Key directly - however Mr Key's refused to name who was briefed.
Newstalk ZB's asked the Office of the Ombudsman to investigate this decision, a request the Chief Ombudsman has agreed to.
They are seeking a response from the Prime Minister by the end of this week.

And the Chief Ombudsman is also poised to look at the activities of the offices of both John Key and former Cabinet Minister Judith Collins and email correspondence passed on by them to right wing bloggers.
That investigation will centre on information passed on directly, as well as information passed from both offices to National Party staffer Jason Ede.
Labour Leader David Cunliffe believes the official should be named.
"Given that we have significant information in the public domain about a particular Prime Ministerial staffer who appears to have ben actively engaged in abuses of ministerial power. At that point it becomes a matter of public interest."

Mr Cunliffe thinks an investigation is a good idea and is critical of how the Government's put Jason Ede in a Parliamentary Services role to circumvent the Official Information Act.

"Mr Ede has been in the Prime Minister's office for years he has been intermittently involved in Mr Key's black operations network and the New Zealand public deserves to know the extent of that and the involvement of the Prime Minister in it

craic
08-09-2014, 07:22 AM
Answered this on the other forum. And I will offer a FURTHER $1,000 to anyone who can show proof that I belong to any organised group of National supporters trying to undermine the left. For goodness sake, look in the mirror - there are more lemmings in the left than there are candidates. I know of several Labour stalwarts who will not vote this time, simply because of the rubbish that is out there, waiting to invade parliament on the coat tails of Labour.

Joshuatree
08-09-2014, 07:32 AM
Money solves everything ehhh. Whale Oil is asking for Donationslol

craic
08-09-2014, 08:41 AM
The left seem to believe that splashing it about - or at least, promising to splash it about will solve the problems of child poverty, real or parentally induced, and half a dozen other woes. The only charity I subscribe to is my wife. And I don't feel inclined to subscribe to those who sit in Auckland, expecting a wage that will keep them there and a house to live in when all they have to do is go and live where they can afford to live.

Sgt Pepper
08-09-2014, 09:49 AM
The left seem to believe that splashing it about - or at least, promising to splash it about will solve the problems of child poverty, real or parentally induced, and half a dozen other woes. The only charity I subscribe to is my wife. And I don't feel inclined to subscribe to those who sit in Auckland, expecting a wage that will keep them there and a house to live in when all they have to do is go and live where they can afford to live.

Here Here
Tell them to come and live in Dunedin, low cost housing, compact city centre, heritage architecture, low crime rate, great schools and University

craic
08-09-2014, 10:37 AM
Doesn't have to be down in the snow. Lots of places south of the Bombay Hills. Hawkes Bay has plenty of room and houses can be had for a fraction of the Auckland prices. Work? - I don't know anyone around here who really wants to work and can't find a job.
Here Here
Tell them to come and live in Dunedin, low cost housing, compact city centre, heritage architecture, low crime rate, great schools and University

fungus pudding
08-09-2014, 12:03 PM
Doesn't have to be down in the snow. Lots of places south of the Bombay Hills. Hawkes Bay has plenty of room and houses can be had for a fraction of the Auckland prices. Work? - I don't know anyone around here who really wants to work and can't find a job.

Hey - cut that out !! :mad ;: I've lived in Dunedin since the 1940s, and love the snow. we get maybe two days a year of it. :) The odd year I've spent away from Dunedin it's the seasons I miss. And you'll buy a damn good house under $300,000.

elZorro
08-09-2014, 12:16 PM
Hey - cut that out !! :mad ;: I've lived in Dunedin since the 1940s, and love the snow. we get maybe two days a year of it. :) The odd year I've spent away from Dunedin it's the seasons I miss. And you'll buy a damn good house under $300,000.

I haven't been down there much FP, but I remember some pasty-looking students who hadn't seen much sun, and a cold biting wind. And that was late summer. I do like the houses though.

slimwin
08-09-2014, 01:10 PM
And if you move from akl to dunners you get a credible rugby team to support as well :-)

craic
08-09-2014, 01:11 PM
Exactly! the reason you only get snow two days a year is that it is too cold on the other 363. One of my best mates came from Otautau and he told me all about it. Never been south of Timaru myself.

fungus pudding
08-09-2014, 01:18 PM
I haven't been down there much FP, but I remember some pasty-looking students who hadn't seen much sun, and a cold biting wind. And that was late summer. I do like the houses though.

Students don't come out in the daytime. They're nocturnal.

slimwin
08-09-2014, 01:33 PM
Your missing some nice places to see in the south craic. With a jacket on. ..

Banksie
08-09-2014, 01:47 PM
If you earn $70,000 a year in wages, you pay tax on every dollar you earn.

If you earn $70,000 because the value of your investment increases by that amount then, unless you are a trader, you don't pay any tax at all.

My favourite comment from the article...I do hope it was said tongue in cheek:

New Zealand society has always been tilted towards the rich and most of us prefer it that way. If you don't like it, emigrate.

elZorro
08-09-2014, 08:12 PM
My favourite comment from the article...I do hope it was said tongue in cheek:

New Zealand society has always been tilted towards the rich and most of us prefer it that way. If you don't like it, emigrate.

It probably wasn't tongue in cheek, Banksie.

Here's a video from a few days back, of John Key being statesmanlike in the wake of "Dirty Politics". Gosh, he's a good speaker when he's on the ropes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B811XSGf--A

Vote for National, and if you're a worker near the minimum pay rate, you'll get a miserly pay increase, and by 2017 you might get a tax reduction of about $10 a week.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11320903

Major von Tempsky
08-09-2014, 09:10 PM
EZ you live in Fantasyland. He's on the ropes when he's cantering away with the election?

He's on the ropes when he's absolutely caning Cunliffe and everyone else in the preferred PM poll?

Pull the other leg EZ!

elZorro
09-09-2014, 05:30 AM
EZ you live in Fantasyland. He's on the ropes when he's cantering away with the election?

He's on the ropes when he's absolutely caning Cunliffe and everyone else in the preferred PM poll?

Pull the other leg EZ!

Come on MVT, you saw what he was like just after the book came out, he was shattered. He was trying to get away from the cameras, and only after a day or so of training up, was he starting to look a bit more assured. Some tougher questions before then would have made a difference, he's got his story down pat now. I think he's in this up to his neck.

artemis
09-09-2014, 06:08 AM
My favourite comment from the article...I do hope it was said tongue in cheek:.....


If you earn $70,000 a year in wages, you pay tax on every dollar you earn.

If you earn $70,000 because the value of your investment increases by that amount then, unless you are a trader, you don't pay any tax at all.

This is a subsidy for the top 10 per cent of New Zealanders who own 50 per cent of the wealth.

There's nothing wrong with people making a few dollars and doing well, but a dollar earned one way should be taxed the same as a dollar earned another way......

Well that's not true at all once transfers are taken into account. From the Minister of Finance in 2011 -

The lowest-income 43 percent of households currently receive more in income support than they pay in income tax. The 1.3 million households with incomes under $110,000 a year collectively pay no net tax—that is, their total income support payments match their combined income tax. The top 10 percent of households contribute over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers—over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers. This system is highly redistributive and we believe it is fair.

elZorro
09-09-2014, 06:15 AM
Well that's not true at all once transfers are taken into account. From the Minister of Finance in 2011 -

The lowest-income 43 percent of households currently receive more in income support than they pay in income tax. The 1.3 million households with incomes under $110,000 a year collectively pay no net tax—that is, their total income support payments match their combined income tax. The top 10 percent of households contribute over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers—over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers. This system is highly redistributive and we believe it is fair.

Artemis, I don't think you've been reading this thread for long. If you go back a year or two, we demolished that spin. Note that here we are only talking about income tax. People who are on the breadline and working, don't save any money. They need to spend it all each week. Most of it attracts GST at 15%, there are big fuel taxes and excise taxes on alcohol, power profit taxes, ACC payments, etc. Because there are a lot of these people in comparison with those at the top, all this tax, in various forms, makes up a significant part of the income for govt.

National trotted out this argument a long time ago, and they were shot down for it.

artemis
09-09-2014, 07:16 AM
Artemis, I don't think you've been reading this thread for long. If you go back a year or two, we demolished that spin. Note that here we are only talking about income tax. People who are on the breadline and working, don't save any money. They need to spend it all each week. Most of it attracts GST at 15%, there are big fuel taxes and excise taxes on alcohol, power profit taxes, ACC payments, etc. Because there are a lot of these people in comparison with those at the top, all this tax, in various forms, makes up a significant part of the income for govt.

National trotted out this argument a long time ago, and they were shot down for it.

Well I'm not planning to read back 200 pages! So what are the correct figures? And what is the source. Up to date would be good.

iceman
09-09-2014, 07:47 AM
Artemis, I don't think you've been reading this thread for long. If you go back a year or two, we demolished that spin. Note that here we are only talking about income tax. People who are on the breadline and working, don't save any money. They need to spend it all each week. Most of it attracts GST at 15%, there are big fuel taxes and excise taxes on alcohol, power profit taxes, ACC payments, etc. Because there are a lot of these people in comparison with those at the top, all this tax, in various forms, makes up a significant part of the income for govt.

National trotted out this argument a long time ago, and they were shot down for it.

EZ I don;t know how you can call that spin. Artemis correctly pointed out that what Belgie posted is absolute BS !

Major von Tempsky
09-09-2014, 07:48 AM
Can't help noting as a career long economist and member of the Economists Assn who read their papers and attended conferences that the NZIER is regarded with far more respect by economists than BERL which is a much more recent private business and has managed to get predictions outstandingly wrong!
The NZIER was started off with the help and funding of the government decades and decades ago and not too long ago was still half funded by the government. It employs the best, most able economists from NZ and overseas of anywhere with the possible exclusion of Treasury.

For Cunliffe to attack the NZIER as not knowing what it is doing smacks of total desperation on his part. The fact that the NZIER says that the CGT will only gather half as much rural tax speaks for itself, more than a billion out. Labour now needs to identify which of its promises it is going to shelve to save a billion dollars!

iceman
09-09-2014, 07:52 AM
The Greens continue their dirty politics using the same tactics as they did with their failed asset sales petition !

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10474271/Greens-rebuked-for-email-tactic

iceman
09-09-2014, 09:47 AM
Belg why are you unable to write a post on here without personal abuse of all of those that have a view different to yours ? It is not surprising that a few posters have said they have blocked your abusive posts. You are obviously a very desperate man/woman that can not accept that your beloved Labour party is about to get the worst hammering it has had in living memory.

iceman
09-09-2014, 10:36 AM
"
Its a win-win for me personally, Iceman. I'll just keep getting wealthier and wealthier if National wins.

Don't flatter yourself mate. I don't care one bit what you say or think of me personally, not that you know me in any way. I just find it disappointing and boring to read your continuous flow of vile against other posters, rather than just sticking to the issues.

I am surprised (but pleased for you) you will keep getting wealthier and wealthier if National gets voted in. Thought it would make no difference to you as you have stated you will be moving overseas if that happens. I hear Malaysian Airlines have quite a few empty seats at good prices !

Cuzzie
09-09-2014, 11:06 AM
Belg why are you unable to write a post on here without personal abuse of all of those that have a view different to yours ? It is not surprising that a few posters have said they have blocked your abusive posts. You are obviously a very desperate man/woman that can not accept that your beloved Labour party is about to get the worst hammering it has had in living memory.I can answer that one iceman, because he has not grown up yet. What do we know about belg?
1/ He is a hacker - in his own words he hacked me and he did.
2/ He recently threatened the MODS that if they removed an abusive post he would sue them. The post was removed and belg carried on without going through with his threat.
3/ He abuses anybody who dares says anything against his beloved Laboured party.
4/ Lies through his teeth and expects others to believe it as facts.
5/ Is a master baiter and tries to get other posters in trouble with the MODS by complaining constantly.
6/ He is a master manipulator and proof of that is the manipulation he just did on the MODs to earn me another week long holiday.
7/ Multiple memberships as we all know.


So how did he manipulate the MODS? Easy, last week I made mention of a crazy gunman that had just let off a few rounds in the Ashburton WINZ office and I gave a link to the NZ Herald site and made a comment that that would be one less Labour voter once caught. Fast forward an hour an a bit and we learnt the unbelievable truth that two had been shot dead and one badly wounded. My comment was out of context from that update and I posted the appropriate apology and for some deluded reason belg thought I was apologising to him. It was not, not even close. belg hit his favorite tool and reported my post and used my NZ Herald link as proof of some kind of reason to ban me for a week. Here is the thing, my link - the original link webpage address stays the same and the Herald updates the story and they state "updated". belg is in ITC and knows this and he fooled the MODS by this deception, same link webpage I gave but a totally different story. Not a good look manipulating the MODS belg. Like always I keep my complaint in the open not hidden like you belg and will be reporting this to the MODS. They can do what they like with it, probably ban me for another week for pointing out you had manipulated them. I don't really care, they can ban me permanently if they like & if they did they would get rid of a straight shooter that doesn't take fools lightly - why do you think I have such a massive problem with belg? Not a problem for me at all, of course they are left with belg & that would be their probs not mine.


Footnote: My wife works for a non-Govt. agency that works in very closely with WINZ. She has ex-workmates, close friends and business relationships with WINZ workers which is why I know how much they are abused and threatened. It is the same where she works so I am very much in the WINZ camp despite the complaint the MODS got from belg. It's normally the the crazy men & women like the Ashburton freak that demand more, way more than the handouts they are given that carry out the threats. Given the manipulation belg just did on the MODs, I am absolutely appalled and the behavior of belg and feel it is high time the MODs did something about it.

Sgt Pepper
09-09-2014, 11:06 AM
Main stream media gets sillier and sillier ...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11320826

... But still manages to spin for National.

Belg

The remarkable thing is look how tolerant the media are for Nationals Tax cut "announcement" completely bereft of detail. I have always had grave reservations about Keys intelligence, but often when he gives his opinion on anything complex you quickly realise just what a light weight he really is. My goodness, heaven help us if, some serious issues confront us in the next 3 years! However just my opinion, I realise for many on this site, he is perfection personified.

Major von Tempsky
09-09-2014, 11:47 AM
You guys have totally unrealistic expectations. Do you seriously expect any sane person to give you a whole lot of details on something that MAY happen in 3 years time? Joke! What happens if the wholemilk milk powder price drops another 40%? Or rises by 60%? I hope you guys aren't running round making detailed promises for May 2017 in your personal lives!

On the other hand Cunliffe is making promises for what would happen straight after the election i.e. 3 months time yet he didn't even know if family trust houses would be subject to CGT and had recklessly overestimated the yield of CGT by 50%!

P.S. I have to totally agree with what Iceman said about Belge. It's a pity we can't have a scientific poll to show the Moderator how deeply unpopular Belg is. He is congenitally unable to debate anything without immediately getting into deeply insulting personal abuse. I suppose the Mod thinks it supplies "interest". On a parallel basis we could bring back Stalin and Hitler as well as the self proclaimed Caliph of ISIS to provide interest.

In the meantime Craic and the others who have done it could advise us what to do to simply stop seeing anything Belge posts while continuing to read all the other non Rottweiler/Pit Bull Terrier posts of well adjusted posters. And compared to Belge even El Zorro etc seem to be quite balanced and sane.

It would need to be put up as a sticky so newbies could rapidly avail themselves of it.

I wonder how many newbies have simply departed rather than continue to read Belge's crazy personal insults of their intelligence, their life experience, their job, their education and qualifications?

I would REALLY REALLY REALLY like to see an explanation from Vince the Moderatot as to why he lets Belge continue???!!!

He was good enough to explain what happened with Moose (thank you for that), now he should be good enough to give us a few words on WHY Belge is allowed to contine!

The question is what is the sweetheart relationship between Belge and Vince the Moderator which allows Belge to rave in personally abusive terms unchecked? I've never seen Belge reprimanded, I've never seen any of Belge's posts which deeply and gratuitously personally insult me and all aspects of my life, removed!

artemis
09-09-2014, 12:14 PM
In the meantime Craic and the others who have done it could advise us what to do to simply stop seeing anything Belge posts while continuing to read all the other non Rottweiler/Pit Bull Terrier posts of well adjusted posters. And compared to Belge even El Zorro etc seem to be quite balanced and sane.

You can 'ignore' someone here:

http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/profile.php?do=ignorelist

Bobcat.
09-09-2014, 01:42 PM
You can 'ignore' someone here:

http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/profile.php?do=ignorelist

Done - yes, quite handy really. This thread now looks a lot more civilised.

westerly
09-09-2014, 01:42 PM
Well that's not true at all once transfers are taken into account. From the Minister of Finance in 2011 -

The lowest-income 43 percent of households currently receive more in income support than they pay in income tax. The 1.3 million households with incomes under $110,000 a year collectively pay no net tax—that is, their total income support payments match their combined income tax. The top 10 percent of households contribute over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers—over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers. This system is highly redistributive and we believe it is fair.

Thyere is a fair bit of spin in the above statement. As many of those earning under &110,000 do not receive any working for families assistance and pay income tax.
Those who pay tax may indeed cover the cost of assistance to those who qualify, As for the top 10% to pay 70% of income tax, with a top tax rate of 33 cents in the dollar there must be some very large incomes out there, All of which is earned by hard work of course.

westerly

westerly
09-09-2014, 02:01 PM
[QUOTE=Major von Tempsky;503629]You guys have totally unrealistic expectations. Do you seriously expect any sane person to give you a whole lot of details on something that MAY happen in 3 years time? Joke! What happens if the wholemilk milk powder price drops another 40%? Or rises by 60%? I hope you guys aren't running round making detailed promises for May 2017 in your personal lives!

On the other hand Cunliffe is making promises for what would happen straight after the election i.e. 3 months time yet he didn't even know if family trust houses would be subject to CGT and had recklessly overestimated the yield of CGT by 50%!

P.S. I have to totally agree with what Iceman said about Belge. It's a pity we can't have a scientific poll to show the Moderator how deeply unpopular Belg is. He is congenitally unable to debate anything without immediately getting into deeply insulting personal abuse. I suppose the Mod thinks it supplies "interest". On a parallel basis we could bring back Stalin and Hitler as well as the self proclaimed Caliph of ISIS to provide interest.

In the meantime Craic and the others who have done it could advise us what to do to simply stop seeing anything Belge posts while continuing to read all the other non Rottweiler/Pit Bull Terrier posts of well adjusted posters. And compared to Belge even El Zorro etc seem to be quite balanced and sane. Quote

Then why mention tax cuts at all if it is so problematic?

As for Belge. He is no worse or better than some of the right wing posters. More an attempt to remove one of the few left leaning posters. Harden up.

westerly

Bobcat.
09-09-2014, 02:13 PM
Westerly / Belg:

The Left-Wing / Right-Wing political spectrum is best represented not on a straight line but in a circle. Go too far in either direction and one ends up at the same spot exhibiting very similar behaviour to whom we meet coming from the other 'side' - deceitful and manipulative and/or arrogant and contemptuous, uncivilised and eventually barbaric.

iceman
09-09-2014, 02:28 PM
Disappointing that the normally articulate and good finance spokesman for Labour is not willing to respond to this http://www.nzshareholders.co.nz/pdf/correspondence/pulse%201%20pdf.pdf from the NZ Shareholders Association. The letter was sent on22 August and a reminder on 4 September, but no answer so far.

fungus pudding
09-09-2014, 02:47 PM
Disappointing that the normally articulate and good finance spokesman for Labour is not willing to respond to this http://www.nzshareholders.co.nz/pdf/correspondence/pulse%201%20pdf.pdf from the NZ Shareholders Association. The letter was sent on22 August and a reminder on 4 September, but no answer so far.

There's no hurry. You'll get an answer long before Mr. Parker gets too near treasury.

Harvey Specter
09-09-2014, 03:30 PM
Disappointing that the normally articulate and good finance spokesman for Labour is not willing to respond to this http://www.nzshareholders.co.nz/pdf/correspondence/pulse%201%20pdf.pdf from the NZ Shareholders Association. The letter was sent on22 August and a reminder on 4 September, but no answer so far.I can answer for him if you want:


The expert panel will decide the details of the policy. How difficult is that.

Given the limited details Labour have provided, and the conflicting details provided by Greens, plus whatever input the other minors have, there is no why CGT can be implemented, including consutlation that would be required with something like this, in less than 2 years.

Major von Tempsky
09-09-2014, 03:36 PM
[QUOTE=Major von Tempsky;503629]You guys have totally unrealistic expectations. Do you seriously expect any sane person to give you a whole lot of details on something that MAY happen in 3 years time? Joke! What happens if the wholemilk milk powder price drops another 40%? Or rises by 60%? I hope you guys aren't running round making detailed promises for May 2017 in your personal lives!

On the other hand Cunliffe is making promises for what would happen straight after the election i.e. 3 months time yet he didn't even know if family trust houses would be subject to CGT and had recklessly overestimated the yield of CGT by 50%!

P.S. I have to totally agree with what Iceman said about Belge. It's a pity we can't have a scientific poll to show the Moderator how deeply unpopular Belg is. He is congenitally unable to debate anything without immediately getting into deeply insulting personal abuse. I suppose the Mod thinks it supplies "interest". On a parallel basis we could bring back Stalin and Hitler as well as the self proclaimed Caliph of ISIS to provide interest.

In the meantime Craic and the others who have done it could advise us what to do to simply stop seeing anything Belge posts while continuing to read all the other non Rottweiler/Pit Bull Terrier posts of well adjusted posters. And compared to Belge even El Zorro etc seem to be quite balanced and sane. Quote

Then why mention tax cuts at all if it is so problematic?

As for Belge. He is no worse or better than some of the right wing posters. More an attempt to remove one of the few left leaning posters. Harden up.

westerly

Actually he is a lot worse as many people have noted. Also when Belge responds to one post with 5 consecutive posts of his own he just ruins the board as a debating vehicle, suffocates everyone else who wants to say something. You omitted that Westerly. There have been a number of extreme left wing posters who have been banned such as RMB Brave - why not Belge? Why is he "special" in terms of his treatment?

Banksie
09-09-2014, 03:47 PM
Did cuzzie come back for one post then immediately get banned again?

elZorro
09-09-2014, 05:26 PM
Did cuzzie come back for one post then immediately get banned again?

It would appear so, Banksie.

Although I'm not sure if anyone on the right side of this thread can even see what I'm writing, as there has been a spate of poster blocking going on. Is this an extreme example of censorship by the right, where only their viewpoints are to be heard? Maybe I can help.

Trickle down theory. All hail John Key. At the end of the day, a small tax cut in three years time is the surest way that NZers can know that National's policies are working. The wealthiest 5% of NZers pay 95% of the tax. Bludgers on the dole have it too easy. Labour got us into this mess, but golly gosh, National is going to get us out of it. Who cares about a bit of dirty politics, everyone is doing it. John Key is such a nice, affable, statesman-like guy. Bill English is a steady hand on the helm, who always answers questions.

craic
09-09-2014, 06:09 PM
This poster is reading you El Zorro. I have no doubt that you are deluded from the wonderful view you have of Labour but I need to watch my investments. So today I called in and voted for Garth McVicar and the Conservative party. It probably means that the Labour candidate will win in Napier but he is a yard or two ahead of most of the rest of his mob.

Joshuatree
09-09-2014, 06:18 PM
Cheers zorro. Im bemused and a little dismayed at how kiwis are being so passive and accepting of whats going on; where has assertive nZ gone.Its like many have been hypnotised into questioning nothing and numbingly accepting their fate; perish the thought but the psych spin merchants appear to have easily subdued this country. BUT anything can happen in these last days and there is no smoke without fire; heres hoping for a dawning backlash.


It would appear so, Banksie.

Although I'm not sure if anyone on the right side of this thread can even see what I'm writing, as there has been a spate of poster blocking going on. Is this an extreme example of censorship by the right, where only their viewpoints are to be heard? Maybe I can help.

Trickle down theory. All hail John Key. At the end of the day, a small tax cut in three years time is the surest way that NZers can know that National's policies are working. The wealthiest 5% of NZers pay 95% of the tax. Bludgers on the dole have it too easy. Labour got us into this mess, but golly gosh, National is going to get us out of it. Who cares about a bit of dirty politics, everyone is doing it. John Key is such a nice, affable, statesman-like guy. Bill English is a steady hand on the helm, who always answers questions.

elZorro
09-09-2014, 06:19 PM
This poster is reading you El Zorro. I have no doubt that you are deluded from the wonderful view you have of Labour but I need to watch my investments. So today I called in and voted for Garth McVicar and the Conservative party. It probably means that the Labour candidate will win in Napier but he is a yard or two ahead of most of the rest of his mob.

Hi Craic, thanks for that. I really liked the use of his *N*A*S*H* and fire truck ideas, he's captured the imagination of the electorate and there are a lot of people behind him. Hamish McDoull in Whanganui is another strong candidate who is very bright too, and deserves to win on his third attempt.

That small bet we have, it's just on the Napier electorate, not the whole country, isn't it? :)

Thanks for your comments JT, another friendly voice in the wilderness..

Interesting data from The Standard. http://thestandard.org.nz/more-nat-lies/

elZorro
09-09-2014, 07:19 PM
This deserves its own post. The teaching profession seems to be under siege by the government.

http://networkonnet.wordpress.com/2014/09/03/the-ministry-of-education-and-whale-oil-an-introduction/

Here's a link to a TV documentary on "The Hollow Men". It pays to keep history in mind.

http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/the-hollow-men-2008

craic
09-09-2014, 10:11 PM
the teaching profession is probably further to the left than the wharfies were and they have been there for many decades.

Winston001
10-09-2014, 02:05 AM
[QUOTE=westerly;503666]

When Belge responds to one post with 5 consecutive posts of his own he just ruins the board as a debating vehicle, suffocates everyone else who wants to say something. There have been a number of extreme left wing posters who have been banned such as RMB Brave - why not Belge? Why is he "special" in terms of his treatment?

Well said although I don't want Belg banned - just reined in a little.

I've been an internet warrior since the late 1990s and seen many interesting discussions destroyed by compulsive people who cannot articulate their views respectfully. A bit of banter and even amusing abuse has its place so long as it does not become overwhelming.

Sadly Belg has overstepped the line in this thread so far as I am concerned. On other topics I'm happy to listen to him.

elZorro
10-09-2014, 06:01 AM
[QUOTE=Major von Tempsky;503691]

Well said although I don't want Belg banned - just reined in a little.

I've been an internet warrior since the late 1990s and seen many interesting discussions destroyed by compulsive people who cannot articulate their views respectfully. A bit of banter and even amusing abuse has its place so long as it does not become overwhelming.

Sadly Belg has overstepped the line in this thread so far as I am concerned. On other topics I'm happy to listen to him.

Yes, I see Belgarion has been banned overnight. That's unfortunate in the leadup to election day. From my point of view, he provides much of the salient data on this thread, but he does take a dim view of anyone who refuses to come up to speed despite that, and betrays it in their posts. None of us really care if people vote left or right according to their convictions at each election, just as long as you've done your research, at some level.

elZorro
10-09-2014, 06:33 AM
the teaching profession is probably further to the left than the wharfies were and they have been there for many decades.

Craic, what do you mean, further to the left? They don't go on strike very often, and there's all sorts of teachers. I take the view that they might on average, be better informed. They are not usually treated very well by National governments.

Joshuatree
10-09-2014, 07:56 AM
Actually he is a lot worse as many people have noted. Also when Belge responds to one post with 5 consecutive posts of his own he just ruins the board as a debating vehicle, suffocates everyone else who wants to say something. You omitted that Westerly. There have been a number of extreme left wing posters who have been banned such as RMB Brave - why not Belge? Why is he "special" in terms of his treatment?


There have been many tyrannical rants from you MVT over the years many of which deserved being binned; did you ever get moderated? No, i don't think so.Thats good.Its great that you have reigned in your excesses somewhat. Belg has facts and passion a great combo imo; long may he liven up the threads and challenge biases, some with his own:). Political threads bring out a lot of strong opinions and sentiments and can be unsavoury at times, getting personal etc. A lot of jousting and protection of ones personal situ is going to bring out reactive defence/attack responses. Cuzzie is the only exception on here imo that rightfully shouldn't be allowed dialogue. Lets tolerate our differences and argue until election day and then be done with it all(phew).

winner69
10-09-2014, 08:05 AM
[QUOTE=Winston001;503765]

Yes, I see Belgarion has been banned overnight. That's unfortunate in the leadup to election day. From my point of view, he provides much of the salient data on this thread, but he does take a dim view of anyone who refuses to come up to speed despite that, and betrays it in their posts. None of us really care if people vote left or right according to their convictions at each election, just as long as you've done your research, at some level.

Looks like all posts been deleted

No longer exists?

Done a moosie?

iceman
10-09-2014, 08:10 AM
Craic, what do you mean, further to the left? They don't go on strike very often, and there's all sorts of teachers. I take the view that they might on average, be better informed. They are not usually treated very well by National governments.

I read some of the "newsletters" my wife receives from her teacher union. It is pure Labour propaganda, especially close to elections.

iceman
10-09-2014, 08:14 AM
[QUOTE=elZorro;503768]

Looks like all posts been deleted

No longer exists?

Done a moosie?

I can still see his posts. I sincerely hope he doesn't disappear. He has made many good contributions on various threads, including this one. Just needs to calm down a little and avoid the continuous personal abuse of everyone that does not agree with him.
I look forward to more good posts from him.

Sgt Pepper
10-09-2014, 08:27 AM
I read some of the "newsletters" my wife receives from her teacher union. It is pure Labour propaganda, especially close to elections.

Like the comments from Business NZ, all very fair and balanced,(not) everything that National does is wonderful anything that Labour suggests has no merit.

craic
10-09-2014, 08:35 AM
As a seventeen-year-old Dublin Catholic entering the Royal Ulster Rifles as a recruit, the first law rigidly enforced was "no religion or politics to be argued at any time". And that was in Ballymena, second only to Portadown as a bastion of Unionism in Ulster. Never experienced a word of abuse, threat or otherwise, but glad to be posted elsewhere later. The unfortunate piper who broke into "The Sash My Father Wore" or some similar ditty on a route march was quickly told to change his tune. Maybe those rules should apply in some form here.

westerly
10-09-2014, 09:47 AM
As a seventeen-year-old Dublin Catholic entering the Royal Ulster Rifles as a recruit, the first law rigidly enforced was "no religion or politics to be argued at any time". And that was in Ballymena, second only to Portadown as a bastion of Unionism in Ulster. Never experienced a word of abuse, threat or otherwise, but glad to be posted elsewhere later. The unfortunate piper who broke into "The Sash My Father Wore" or some similar ditty on a route march was quickly told to change his tune. Maybe those rules should apply in some form here.

Definitely ban all forms of Irish dancing. Keep the bagpipes though. (Or was the pipes some type of Irish flute?}

westerly

elZorro
10-09-2014, 11:23 AM
It would seem that Belgarion has his posts intact, and is back online. Cheers, welcome back Belge. Had me very worried for a bit.

elZorro
10-09-2014, 11:28 AM
I read some of the "newsletters" my wife receives from her teacher union. It is pure Labour propaganda, especially close to elections.

Sgt Pepper's post noted. I sincerely hope for your sake Iceman, that your wife's vote doesn't cancel out yours. Maybe you should grab those propaganda sheets (masquerading as newsletters) the instant they hit the letterbox, in case she is tempted to read them. Can't be too careful these days.

craic
10-09-2014, 12:14 PM
Just got a call from an old workmate who is calling around for a visit. A dyed in the wool Labour man from his days as a teacher. Has been out delivering pamphlets for the Conservatives whom he now supports. Reason? He wants them to get 5% " to keep National honest" in the next term. I will hear the expanded version later. But now, even Dot com states that his revelations later are hardly likely to hurt John Key's popularity.

westerly
10-09-2014, 12:15 PM
the teaching profession is probably further to the left than the wharfies were and they have been there for many decades.

The teachers union or the wharfies for that matter are no further left than Federated Farmers or the Chamber of Commerce ( which basically are unions of a different sort ) are to the right. It being the duty of both types to further the interests of their members.
The diminishing of union power may have been necessary thirty years ago but the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction with the far right attacks both open and hidden on those who need unions to look after their interests.
There was an interesting article in the Sunday paper on how technical advances are continually removing jobs even at the unskilled level. Private enterprise will show no interest in job creation and it will inevitably fall back on Govt. to create more jobs to avoid civil unrest. National will continue to advocate for lesser Govt. and lower taxes so there is not much hope of a solution there.

westerly
|

Major von Tempsky
10-09-2014, 12:16 PM
Belge is back? How very disappointing! Pity. Does he have some blackmail info over Vince the Administrator? Why isn't the same set of rules applied as is applied to other people! Why will Vince comment on Moose, etc etc but he will never utter a word of explanation why Belge is not reined in?

EZ do you enjoy reading 5 consecutive posts from Belge so no one else can post? Do enjoy a seeing a nonstop stream of personal vitriol directed at other posters simply because they disagree with Belge on some point? Do you enjoy seeing some newbie having his intelligence, his qualifications, his origins, his membership of community organisations, his religion, where he lives, who he associates with all insulted so he never comes back to Sharetrader?
Unbelievable. One day someone will take a legal case against Belge and/or a legal case against Vince for not implementing his Moderator role impartially!
Naturally, as always, there WILL BE ABSOLUTELY NO COMMENT ON THIS from Vince!

elZorro
10-09-2014, 12:29 PM
The teachers union or the wharfies for that matter are no further left than Federated Farmers or the Chamber of Commerce ( which basically are unions of a different sort ) are to the right. It being the duty of both types to further the interests of their members.
The diminishing of union power may have been necessary thirty years ago but the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction with the far right attacks both open and hidden on those who need unions to look after their interests.
There was an interesting article in the Sunday paper on how technical advances are continually removing jobs even at the unskilled level. Private enterprise will show no interest in job creation and it will inevitably fall back on Govt. to create more jobs to avoid civil unrest. National will continue to advocate for lesser Govt. and lower taxes so there is not much hope of a solution there.

westerly
|

Really good points Westerly. When larger firms get government grants for R&D, they often don't use it to expand their workforce. They'll buy in robots, automate stuff, chop out staff with it, while keeping the R&D staff busy and paid for. Smaller firms will do the opposite, they will need more staff to do any research. They won't need new equipment much, they'll be trying to get it working closer to 100% utilisation. So Labour's R&D tax credits are much more aligned with job creation.

In my business, I try and keep the bulk manufacturing here in NZ, I resist automation when it makes no sense for smaller runs. I like to be able to say we hand-build things. Our customers get that message, too.

Bobcat.
10-09-2014, 12:31 PM
Just got a call from an old workmate who is calling around for a visit. A dyed in the wool Labour man from his days as a teacher. Has been out delivering pamphlets for the Conservatives whom he now supports. Reason? He wants them to get 5% " to keep National honest" in the next term. I will hear the expanded version later. But now, even Dot com states that his revelations later are hardly likely to hurt John Key's popularity.

John Key's interview in front of a live audience on Shine TV's Family in Focus last night was very interesting. For those that missed it, he more or less endorsed the Conservative Party as a valid representation of New Zealanders subscribing to more conservative values than National around marriage (i.e. exclusively heterosexual -- not homosexual nor polygamist nor any other unnatural social preference), parental discipline of children (i.e. permitting non-abusive physical correction by way of a light smack), binding referendums (referring to a meeting he had with Colin Craig and Bob McCoskrie soon after the non-binding referendum by which over 85% of NZ'ers voted against the new anti-smacking bill), pro-life & euthanasia (i.e. acknowledging the sanctity of life all the way from conception to natural death), etc.

Not once did he mention anything positive about Winston Peters in that regard...who by the way is on record as supporting euthanasia.

Key would clearly prefer to work closely with Colin Craig and his party, and so don't be surprised if in some way he makes that a reality later this month.

A vote for the Conservatives is increasingly unlikely to be a wasted vote, especially for those less liberal and permissive amongst us. Unlike many of the alternatives, at least Craig and his supporters have a moral compass. I did begin to wonder if Key has perhaps lost his when he stated that because society is changing, our laws must reflect the wishes of the people wanting to marry as homosexuals...but then stumbled when McCoskrie asked him if that meant at some point in the future he would support polygamy, marrying a relative or someone very young, or some other version of marriage merely because an active minority lobby group promoted it and society became a bit more tolerant of it.

God created Adam and Eve...not Madam and Eve...nor Adam and Steve...for good reason. It's not just generally better for children to have a mum and dad married as man and wife, society is healthier for it. To protect property rights, we allowed civil unions for homosexuals who at the time claimed that's all they wanted when in fact their agenda was to undermine and redefine the traditional family unit.

To degrade the institution of marriage by redefining it to accommodate unions that are non-heterosexual and/or involving consenting minors or multiple partners would be a mistake. To reverse this trend (as the Conservatives will facilitate by way of a binding referendum) will give NZ'ers the opportunity to protect and promote what is not only good for women & children but what also brings out the best in men.

Government of the people for the people would be a refreshing change. I say bring on the binding referendums...

Go you good thing.

BC

slimwin
10-09-2014, 12:48 PM
Homo sexuality is very normal in the natural world bobcat. Not my cup of tea but I'm not a bigot over it either.

iceman
10-09-2014, 01:01 PM
Sgt Pepper's post noted. I sincerely hope for your sake Iceman, that your wife's vote doesn't cancel out yours. Maybe you should grab those propaganda sheets (masquerading as newsletters) the instant they hit the letterbox, in case she is tempted to read them. Can't be too careful these days.

I am not sure what she votes mate and however she votes, I can't see how that would possibly cancel out my vote ! It is her decision how to vote and not one that I try to influence. I know it is not unusual for leftwingers (Nicky Hager etc) to steal other people's personal mail but it isn't my style EZ, so I will not follow your kind advice :p

Bobcat.
10-09-2014, 01:23 PM
Homo sexuality is very normal in the natural world bobcat. Not my cup of tea but I'm not a bigot over it either.

It's not bigotry to know the difference between right and wrong, my friend. There is no such thing as a 'gay gene'. Putting it bluntly, homosexuality is both voluntary misbehaviour and a psychological disorder. I accept that is more difficult for some people to know how to relate normally to the opposite sex but this is not due to how we are designed nor to any inclinations (orientation?) one has when born. Factors in one's upbringing are the best explanation as to why some unfortunates experience difficulties relating to the opposite sex:

e.g. being raised by a dominating mother...or by an ineffective father..or more recently by tax-payer funded sexuality 'education' programmes (indoctrination) in secondary and now primary schools, whereby pubescent children are not only told how to locate and stimulate the clitoris (yes, it's true) but also told to accept and explore homosexual behaviour, and that to do otherwise is 'homophobic'.

The world has gone mad. For our own good, and the good of others, we must get back to basics...to what our Creator has made crystal clear in his instruction manual to mankind.

From Romans Chapter 1:

"Since the creation of the world, God's invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse...

God game them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonour their bodies amongst themselves...

God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the women, burned in their lust for one another, committing what is shameful. "

Live and let live? I don't think so. The problem for the rest of us is societal. First tolerance...then comes acceptance...and then imitation. That's the slippery slope. Instead, we must protect our children and others whom we love (yes, including those caught up in homosexual lifestyle) by declaring and promoting the truth concerning behaviour that is morally right (for good reason, and as revealed by Scripture) vs that which is not right.

Keeping perspective, we are all tempted by sin and at times give into temptation (since we are all sinners). To varying extents, we are all enticed by the lust of the eye or the lust of the flesh (for sexual gratification, for money, for fame, for possessions, for power & influence, etc) and so really nobody is in a position to condemn his fellow man as though we are somehow more righteous (since there is none who are righteous, not one...except of course the Son of Man, God's own Son - Jesus Christ) but crikey, let's recognise what's not right and live accordingly, can we not? To do otherwise is a sign that we have lost our moral compass, and risk influencing our community in a way that's not healthy and less than God-honouring.

fungus pudding
10-09-2014, 01:26 PM
Government of the people for the people would be a refreshing change. I say bring on the binding referendums...



BC

Call it what it is - mob rule.

Bobcat.
10-09-2014, 01:32 PM
Call it what it is - mob rule.

Another way of looking at it is that it's 'mob rule' when an arrogant few politicians (many of whom were never elected as electoral representatives) choose to ignore what the people are demanding, and go their merry way with their own social engineering agenda.

fungus pudding
10-09-2014, 02:20 PM
Another way of looking at it is that it's 'mob rule' when an arrogant few politicians (many of whom were never elected as electoral representatives) choose to ignore what the people are demanding, and go their merry way with their own social engineering agenda.

All politicians are elected, first by their party, and endorsed by the public in the general election. I certainly don't trust the hoi polloi to understand each and every matter thrown before them. Listen to talkback radio for a while and you'll soon see. Now's a good time - you'll discover how many have no understanding of MMP after nearly 20 years, even though the public voted for it. Like the lady caller - just heard - who said she was voting for Winston First because she doesn't like National. How often have you heard the call for reducing MP numbers to 99. (why 99 I don't know) this in spite of the fact that we've never had so few per capita, in spite of the fact very few have any idea of the workload, and in spite of the fact that it last cropped up after MMP was endorsed - which requires 120 MPs. Find someone who says we should have fewer MPs and ask them whether it should be fewer electorates, or fewer from the list. You'll get a stunned silence at such a deep question.

fungus pudding
10-09-2014, 02:20 PM
Another way of looking at it is that it's 'mob rule' when an arrogant few politicians (many of whom were never elected as electoral representatives) choose to ignore what the people are demanding, and go their merry way with their own social engineering agenda.

All politicians are elected, first by their party, and endorsed by the public in the general election. I certainly don't trust the hoi polloi to understand each and every matter thrown before them. Listen to talkback radio for a while and you'll soon see. Now's a good time - you'll discover how many have no understanding of MMP after nearly 20 years, even though the public voted for it. Like the lady caller - just heard - who said she was voting for Winston First because she doesn't like National. How often have you heard the call for reducing MP numbers to 99. (why 99 I don't know) this in spite of the fact that we've never had so few per capita, in spite of the fact very few have any idea of the workload, and in spite of the fact that it last cropped up after MMP was endorsed - which requires 120 MPs. Find someone who says we should have fewer MPs and ask them whether it should be fewer electorates, or fewer from the list. You'll get a stunned silence at such a deep question.

macduffy
10-09-2014, 02:38 PM
I'm guessing that 99 is the minimum number needed to provide MP's for electorates of a manageable size and to meet the proportional requirements of MMP. Too many list MP's in my opinion but I guess them's the breaks!

craic
10-09-2014, 03:01 PM
The idea of binding referenda is that when an idea is formulated, it is discussed and debated over a significant period before the public are asked vote for it or against it. Not the present simple system where someone comes up with a scheme and goes around with bits of paper till he has enough to force a referendum.

fungus pudding
10-09-2014, 03:07 PM
I'm guessing that 99 is the minimum number needed to provide MP's for electorates of a manageable size and to meet the proportional requirements of MMP. Too many list MP's in my opinion but I guess them's the breaks!

There are 41 and 79 electorates. The way to reduce that is to change electoral system to Supplementary member, but the public put that as the least preferred in the last referendum.

fungus pudding
10-09-2014, 03:08 PM
The idea of binding referenda is that when an idea is formulated, it is discussed and debated over a significant period before the public are asked vote for it or against it. Not the present simple system where someone comes up with a scheme and goes around with bits of paper till he has enough to force a referendum.

The idea promoted by the Conservative lot is for citizens initiated referendums to be binding - no thanks.

craic
10-09-2014, 03:27 PM
Election results are - whats the difference?
The idea promoted by the Conservative lot is for citizens initiated referendums to be binding - no thanks.

fungus pudding
10-09-2014, 04:00 PM
Election results are - whats the difference?

Quite a difference. I very much doubt that people generally know more than one or two of the policies of the different parties, but they get some idea of the direction and the party leaders. If there's a better way nobody's found it yet. Once the govt. is elected they should be left to run the damn show. We mightn't like some decisions, but there might be some hare-brained nonsense coming out of a binding CIR. Look at the swing in opinion over capital gains tax - a popular suggestion when the punters thought it would be that other bloke who would be paying it, but the minute the idea spread that it might catch their inheritance - bang - shot down in flames.

minimoke
10-09-2014, 04:05 PM
Election results are - whats the difference?not quite. National and labour expect to win the election with less than 50% of the vote. Binding referenda would require 66.6% of the vote to succeed.

minimoke
10-09-2014, 04:10 PM
....but there might be some hare-brained nonsense coming out of a binding CIR.
So we have to accept hare brained schemes from a party with less than 66% of the vote but can't accept a scheme which achieves more than 66% of the vote. Sounds like an odd democracy to me.

slimwin
10-09-2014, 06:53 PM
Lol. "Putting it bluntly, homosexuality is both voluntary misbehaviour and a psychological disorder."

Do you many psycologists without a bias BC? I do. Putting it bluntly, your wrong. Again.

I do know of some good research at Victoria psych dept right now into depression in fundamentalist religious people. It seems that some that have had a big problem in their life can't reconcile why their god is doing this to them while the "heaven" next door is living a happy life.

I wonder why that is...

Winston001
10-09-2014, 07:13 PM
"Heathen" next door? :D

slimwin
10-09-2014, 07:21 PM
Lol. Yeah. Too good a freudian slip,in the context of the post, to edit now :)

iceman
10-09-2014, 07:34 PM
craig by tonights TV3 poll, your list vote may not be wasted. The Conservatives are very close to the 5%.
I have to say that after listening to Winston Peters on Radio Live with Duncan Garner today, where he made a complete twit of himself, I hope he doesn't reach the 5% and if he does, that he is not left in a Kingmaker's position.
For that wish to eventuate, it would most likely need the Conservatives to reach 5%. But I do note that the TV3 poll today, even with the Conservatives not reaching 5%, would leave National with current partners Maori Party, ACT and United Future with a majority.
As long as Key doesn't stuff up the debate starting in about 5 minutes, I am comfortable that we are heading towards a National lead Government after the election but questions remain about who will back them up.

I went and cast an advance vote yesterday. I was surprised at the large number of people voting. Contrary to common suggestions that this would be favourable to Labour, I saw no evidence of that. Most of the voters I saw were senior citizens that obviously want to ensure they're votes do count and decided to do it early.

Minerbarejet
10-09-2014, 07:46 PM
Lol. "Putting it bluntly, homosexuality is both voluntary misbehaviour and a psychological disorder."

Do you many psycologists without a bias BC? I do. Putting it bluntly, your wrong. Again.

I do know of some good research at Victoria psych dept right now into depression in fundamentalist religious people. It seems that some that have had a big problem in their life can't reconcile why their god is doing this to them while the "heaven" next door is living a happy life.

I wonder why that is...
The way things are going I am aghast at the prospect that binding referenda may make homosexuality compulsory. That would make me extremely depressed.:)
Sorry, I meant :(

slimwin
10-09-2014, 07:56 PM
Lol. Ironically it may be compulsory in jail where more people will end up if the Conservatives ran the show :)

Minerbarejet
10-09-2014, 08:09 PM
Lol. Ironically it may be compulsory in jail where more people will end up if the Conservatives ran the show :)LOL
Lets hope it doesnt spread to the wider community otherwise we wont have a community:) sorry:(

And having thought about it nobody in jail either:scared:

slimwin
10-09-2014, 08:13 PM
And if only we could stop those other pesky animals that do it too..

Minerbarejet
10-09-2014, 08:15 PM
And if only we could stop those other pesky animals that do it too..
Do they put animals in jail? :eek2:

fungus pudding
10-09-2014, 08:25 PM
LOL
Lets hope it doesnt spread to the wider community otherwise we wont have a community:) sorry:(

And having thought about it nobody in jail either:scared:

And eventually - nobody anywhere.

Minerbarejet
10-09-2014, 08:31 PM
And eventually - nobody anywhere.Nah, there are always a few who wont go along with this, thank goodness.:)

fungus pudding
10-09-2014, 08:34 PM
Nah, there are always a few who wont go along with this, thank goodness.:)

Yeah, but we're too old.

Minerbarejet
10-09-2014, 08:38 PM
Yeah, but we're too old.
Ah yes, but with age comes wisdom ( well thats what my grandad said):)

winner69
10-09-2014, 08:56 PM
The Scots voting es or no is more intriguing and exciting than the foregone conclusion in nz

Minerbarejet
10-09-2014, 09:04 PM
The Scots voting es or no is more intriguing and exciting than the foregone conclusion in nz
Freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!

minimoke
10-09-2014, 09:04 PM
The Scots voting es or no is more intriguing and exciting than the foregone conclusion in nzwhat will we do with our flag?

minimoke
10-09-2014, 09:09 PM
The way things are going I am aghast at the prospect that binding referenda may make homosexuality compulsory. That would make me extremely depressed.:)
Sorry, I meant :(fine by me. I'm well practiced in the art of back door rodgerring. Eqc have had me over a barrell with my pants down for a while now!

Minerbarejet
10-09-2014, 09:10 PM
what will we do with our flag?Dont tempt me.
Mount it somewhere?
:)

Minerbarejet
10-09-2014, 09:20 PM
fine by me. I'm well practiced in the art of back door rodgerring. Eqc have had me over a barrell with my pants down for a while now!
Move to Taranaki, nobody knows where we are and its lovely here, just a bloody big volcano that could blow at any time but thats about it.
Cheers
Miner

elZorro
10-09-2014, 09:42 PM
I watched the debate on TV3, and the Paul Henry show afterwards. Some of the latter was a bit lightweight. I'm not too sure about Duncan Garner, not that objective, and while I was expecting that from Paul Henry, I wasn't expecting it from a reporter. As for the members of the public being interviewed, that was a mercifully short cross.

Paul Henry: None of the debate content was over my head, or over anyone else's who has spent time on this thread. John Key still managed to say that Labour put NZ in this mess. Unbelievable! You know right there that he's full of it. DC pulled him up on quite a few fabricated figures.

Clear Win to David Cunliffe:
(http://thestandard.org.nz/a-clear-cunliffe-win/)

777
10-09-2014, 09:46 PM
Paul Holmes's show or Paul Henry's show?

Pretty even debate in my opinion.

elZorro
10-09-2014, 10:07 PM
Paul Holmes's show or Paul Henry's show?

Pretty even debate in my opinion.

Oops, changed that, in deference to the late show host. Thanks.

iceman
11-09-2014, 06:06 AM
I watched the debate on TV3, and the Paul Henry show afterwards. Some of the latter was a bit lightweight. I'm not too sure about Duncan Garner, not that objective, and while I was expecting that from Paul Henry, I wasn't expecting it from a reporter. As for the members of the public being interviewed, that was a mercifully short cross.

Paul Henry: None of the debate content was over my head, or over anyone else's who has spent time on this thread. John Key still managed to say that Labour put NZ in this mess. Unbelievable! You know right there that he's full of it. DC pulled him up on quite a few fabricated figures.

Clear Win to David Cunliffe:
(http://thestandard.org.nz/a-clear-cunliffe-win/)

I don't think it was a clear win for Cunliffe EZ but of course the unbiased The Standard would say so. Personally I thought both Key and Cunliffe had good moments and bad moments. The winner was John Campbell who moderated the best controlled debate so far and I normally don;t like him much.
I do wonder if these debates actually make a difference to the voting intentions of all that many people !

fungus pudding
11-09-2014, 06:47 AM
I don't think it was a clear win for Cunliffe EZ but of course the unbiased The Standard would say so. Personally I thought both Key and Cunliffe had good moments and bad moments. The winner was John Campbell who moderated the best controlled debate so far and I normally don;t like him much.
I do wonder if these debates actually make a difference to the voting intentions of all that many people !

It was running even until Cunliffe turned on his solemn act, serious look, changed vocal pitch, and told us his mission is to save the nation's children. Tried to look and sound like he was sent here by Allah. There's nothing ever looks more insincere than someone faking sincerity. Puke making, slightly reminiscent of his apology for being a man performance..

winner69
11-09-2014, 07:16 AM
I'll vote who can look they are close to tears when they say they are going to make this country great again.

David Cameron did a good job with the choke last night when telling the Scots theybshould not use the referendum as a chance to kick the "effing Tories", he said: "I care far more about my country than I do about my party. I care hugely about this extraordinary country, this United Kingdom that we have built together. I would be heartbroken if this family of nations we have put together – and we have done such amazing things – was torn apart."

Come to think about it - about time NZ let those north of the Bombay Hills go independent as well. A yes vote would make Aucklanders realise that they really do depend on the rest of the country to maintain their lifestyles - let the scroungers look after the neighbours in South Auckland I say. That way those down on the farm near Napier can further enrich their lifes

craic
11-09-2014, 07:35 AM
Why not all the Asian Immigrants to remain North of the Bombay Hills and the place to named New Hong Kong. Well they called the other place New York, didn't they?. And if you have ever been to York You might wonder why. Napier and Hastings could amalgamate and be called New Cannes - In deference to the Wattie empire that built the place.

fungus pudding
11-09-2014, 08:21 AM
Why not all the Asian Immigrants to remain North of the Bombay Hills and the place to named New Hong Kong. Well they called the other place New York, didn't they?. And if you have ever been to York You might wonder why. Napier and Hastings could amalgamate and be called New Cannes - In deference to the Wattie empire that built the place.

And if you've ever been to Zealand you'd wonder about that too so I'm told. Haven't been there myself. .

Sgt Pepper
11-09-2014, 11:33 AM
I would be interested in others opinion of the following:

What are the main priorities of the next National lead government, is it to maintain the status quo and play safe or will it be reform?

fungus pudding
11-09-2014, 11:41 AM
I would be interested in others opinion of the following:

What are the main priorities of the next National lead government, is it to maintain the status quo and play safe or will it be reform?

Play it safe - no reform necessary.

Sgt Pepper
11-09-2014, 12:02 PM
Play it safe - no reform necessary.

So... this is as good as it is going to get. How sad

Banksie
11-09-2014, 12:29 PM
So... this is as good as it is going to get. How sad

It may get worse, based on past performance could they implement any of the following?

- Nationalise the Kiwi bank
- Stop or alter the Kiwi saver subsidies
- Start charging interest on all student loans
- Open more privately run charter schools
- Issue mineral rights to more DOC land and marine reserves
- Sign the TPP, even if it contains clauses that disadvantage NZ

Sgt Pepper
11-09-2014, 12:59 PM
It may get worse, based on past performance could they implement any of the following?

- Nationalise the Kiwi bank
- Stop or alter the Kiwi saver subsidies
- Start charging interest on all student loans
- Open more privately run charter schools
- Issue mineral rights to more DOC land and marine reserves
- Sign the TPP, even if it contains clauses that disadvantage NZ

Banksie

Hard to say, I have speculated that Key will come under pressure to deliver on a number of fronts next term based on the assumption of making the most of the political capital. If I was a wealthy National donor I would be increasingly exasperated by Keys performance and lack of engagement with their agenda, and mindful that the next 3 years is the notorious "third term" I would not be surprised if intense pressure comes on him to:

1. Privatise/outsource ACC
2. Further relaxation of Labour Legislation
3. Reduction of corporate tax.
4. rolling back working for families entitlements

However John Key will be in "legacy mode" mindful of his place in history. The only risky thing I see him undertaking is to resuscitate the NZ Flag debate. How effectively he will be able, or indeed wants, to push back against the far right remains an open question.
Whatever scenario the next three years are going to be rather fraught for National, and it will severely test John Key. I am not optimistic he will , or has the ability, to rise to the challenge.

westerly
11-09-2014, 03:37 PM
Play it safe - no reform necessary.

Has a conservative National Govt. ever done anything else?
However, depending on the influence of the far right element in National especially given the total decline of Act who knows?

westerly

Major von Tempsky
13-09-2014, 08:13 AM
Well Banksie, you caught my attention. "Nationalise the KiwiBank" ????!!!! - everyone is under the impression that it is government owned....so who are you saying it belongs to? Royal Bank of Scotland?

The main point of interest at this point of the campaign should be is the Conservative Party going to crack 5%?

I'm not a CP supporter but if it does the sound of hot air hissing out of Winston First as he sadly deflates will be very audible from North Cape to Bluff!

Banksie
13-09-2014, 10:16 AM
Well Banksie, you caught my attention. "Nationalise the KiwiBank" ????!!!! - everyone is under the impression that it is government owned....so who are you saying it belongs to? Royal Bank of Scotland

Lol - I was beginning to wonder if anyone was reading my posts.

Sgt Pepper
13-09-2014, 01:57 PM
So will John Key be true to his word and " I will resign if it is proved the GCSB conducts mass surveillance on New Zealanders " August 2013

Interesting times indeed.

craic
13-09-2014, 02:45 PM
I don't know about other areas but the Conservative support around here has me confused. A week ago I would have bet money on a Labour win in Napier, simply because a lacklustre National candidate was bound to lose votes to the strong Conservative candidate and while Garth McViicars score would surprise people, he would never be better than third in Napier.I'm not sure now, Conservatives are attracting the strangest of bedfellows. As to the actions of the GCSB, a definition of "mass surveillance" is needed before anyone can hang John Key. If there is a system embedded in communication that reacts to key words etc. it is no more than I would expect - exactly the same as sniffer dogs in airports that react to drugs and other substances. I am a perfectly respectable old man and I get turned over every time in every airport. If there are security operatives going through my communications at all times, I don't care.

fungus pudding
13-09-2014, 03:11 PM
I don't know about other areas but the Conservative support around here has me confused. A week ago I would have bet money on a Labour win in Napier, simply because a lacklustre National candidate was bound to lose votes to the strong Conservative candidate and while Garth McViicars score would surprise people, he would never be better than third in Napier.I'm not sure now, Conservatives are attracting the strangest of bedfellows. As to the actions of the GCSB, a definition of "mass surveillance" is needed before anyone can hang John Key. If there is a system embedded in communication that reacts to key words etc. it is no more than I would expect - exactly the same as sniffer dogs in airports that react to drugs and other substances. I am a perfectly respectable old man and I get turned over every time in every airport. If there are security operatives going through my communications at all times, I don't care.

Neither do I. In fact I'd be pleased, but I doubt that NZ spends enough to offer the maximum protection available with modern technology.

nextbigthing
13-09-2014, 05:41 PM
Very much looks like Conservatives are going to make it over the mark. Once people realize a vote for them isn't a wasted vote (in terms of getting over the line) they will probably build more momentum.

neopoleII
13-09-2014, 06:09 PM
my wife asked me about who to vote for today while we were walking around and shopping at manukau city shopping center......
as this is the shopping center in the middle of the most "poverty" stricken district in NZ she was very surprised with the volume of stuff forsale
and the amount of people in the complex........ (she is a dunedin girl) (( and we live in a very sparse rural area south of auckland))
so I said....... I am voting for the conservatives and she looked at me...... like that guy on the jeep ad when the wife buys a jeep......
and she said yes...... that seems like a good vote....... I asked her.... do you know who or what they are?
surprisingly she said yes, and this is a girl...who tells me off for watching parliament tv.
we have a household of free living and free thought and clothes are optional....... good girl!
but religion and politics is mostly a non subject here at home.
discussions of purchasing 5 inch high heels (her) or windmill parts etc (me) are far more important.
so IMHO the cons might make it as more and more folks look at the options out there.
will be an interesting election this month.

blackcap
13-09-2014, 07:42 PM
Very much looks like Conservatives are going to make it over the mark. Once people realize a vote for them isn't a wasted vote (in terms of getting over the line) they will probably build more momentum.

I voted for the conservatives this day. I just see them doing well in the polls and as a "rightish" voter I do not want a 5 party coalition of the damned in power and thus have put my vote towards the cons getting 5%. THey may not make 5% and my vote will be wasted but I have spoken to a lot of ppl that are going to vote cons so am quietly confident.

Minerbarejet
13-09-2014, 08:30 PM
Keep going like this and they will have the majority with Nats as a coalition partner.

elZorro
13-09-2014, 08:44 PM
I have just spotted that Belgarion is fairly upset about political censorship on these threads, and is considering withdrawing all his posts from ST. That's why he's not ripping into all of these voters for the Conservative Party, Sgt Pepper.

I still think the CP leader looks a bit strange, but I have not had a good look at their policies. Of course, they couldn't be better than Labour's ones.

nextbigthing
13-09-2014, 09:00 PM
I have just spotted that Belgarion is fairly upset about political censorship on these threads, and is considering withdrawing all his posts from ST. That's why he's not ripping into all of these voters for the Conservative Party, Sgt Pepper.

I still think the CP leader looks a bit strange, but I have not had a good look at their policies. Of course, they couldn't be better than Labour's ones.

Crikey el Z, you vote on looks? How on earth did you vote for Mr Helen Clark?! ;)

craic
13-09-2014, 10:22 PM
El Zorro, I think you may find that Belg. has already gone. Or so I understand from some of the recent writings. And in another week or so DC will be on his way, and I will have plenty to spend on Melbourne Cup day. Now pension day - every second Tuesday - is a big day for us oldies. We go to the club in time for a couple before lunch , buy tickets in numerous raffles for anything from a few scratchies to a Christmas ham. then we have lunch, a few more bevvies and wander off around town to buy the groceries and whatever. Now this year the Melbourne Cup is on a pension tuesday. Now we can book a table for eight people at $30 per head. We will get $200 in food supplied to the table, $10 betting voucher per head and a few other goodies Dont worry about the maths - profits will be from the drinks we buy. The State of The Nation will not rate a mention on that day.

blackcap
14-09-2014, 06:43 AM
That's why he's not ripping into all of these voters for the Conservative Party, Sgt Pepper.

.

Why not take over ElZorro and rip into people who want to vote Conservative Party, as if its a crime. Last time I looked everyone in this country was entitled to a vote and vote for a party of their choice. As much as I respect your right to vote Labour, you should respect my right to vote Conservative.

Snapper
14-09-2014, 11:33 AM
Re Assange, Greenwald et al, interesting to see what motivates these guys http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116253/edward-snowden-glenn-greenwald-julian-assange-what-they-believe . Seems like they are not aligned to any particular left wing ideology (in fact they have a number of far right views) - their main concern is Big Brother-type government and growth of the surveillance state. Interesting collection of bedfellows though - Putin, holocaust deniers, neo-nazis, etc. I can see the alignment with Kim Dotcom, not so much with Laila Harre and Hone.

fungus pudding
14-09-2014, 11:42 AM
Re Assange, Greenwald et al, interesting to see what motivates these guys http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116253/edward-snowden-glenn-greenwald-julian-assange-what-they-believe . Seems like they are not aligned to any particular left wing ideology (in fact they have a number of far right views) - their main concern is Big Brother-type government and growth of the surveillance state. Interesting collection of bedfellows though - Putin, holocaust deniers, neo-nazis, etc. I can see the alignment with Kim Dotcom, not so much with Laila Harre and Hone.


They cater to the paranoid, so they'll always have a small army of followers.

craic
14-09-2014, 01:08 PM
Interested in a poll published yesterday showing Labour well ahead in Napier. But that was expected - what was not expected was Garth McVicars result at 22%. I don't go back far enough to remember when a flock of geese, strategically placed, protected those inside from intruders. But I do expect cyber surveillance on my behalf by our government and allies. Even DC is holding his breath on this one and I hope the net result is the removal the fat one from the country before the ink is dry on the election result.

Sgt Pepper
14-09-2014, 01:15 PM
Interested in a poll published yesterday showing Labour well ahead in Napier. But that was expected - what was not expected was Garth McVicars result at 22%. I don't go back far enough to remember when a flock of geese, strategically placed, protected those inside from intruders. But I do expect cyber surveillance on my behalf by our government and allies. Even DC is holding his breath on this one and I hope the net result is the removal the fat one from the country before the ink is dry on the election result.

Hmm I thought there was a judicial process to go through? Perhaps I am a bit old fashioned.
Right Im off to work now to pay the pensioners

fungus pudding
14-09-2014, 01:38 PM
Re Assange, Greenwald et al, interesting to see what motivates these guys http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116253/edward-snowden-glenn-greenwald-julian-assange-what-they-believe . Seems like they are not aligned to any particular left wing ideology (in fact they have a number of far right views) - their main concern is Big Brother-type government and growth of the surveillance state. Interesting collection of bedfellows though - Putin, holocaust deniers, neo-nazis, etc. I can see the alignment with Kim Dotcom, not so much with Laila Harre and Hone.

John Minto ???

fungus pudding
14-09-2014, 01:39 PM
Hmm I thought there was a judicial process to go through? Perhaps I am a bit old fashioned.
Right Im off to work now to pay the pensioners

Great. Thanks. I'll spend my bit wisely.

neopoleII
14-09-2014, 05:28 PM
""Right Im off to work now to pay the pensioners ""
as long as you realize that the pensioners of today didnt have multi billion dollar social welfare back up
then all good.
as for those of working age who choose to sit on theirs bums...... they thank you for your hard days work.

slimwin
14-09-2014, 07:20 PM
All of us who are working are paying the pensioners :-)

elZorro
14-09-2014, 08:03 PM
Lots of reasons to not vote National. Real numbers, not made up ones.

http://werewolf.co.nz/2014/09/third-term-losers/

iceman
14-09-2014, 08:43 PM
Lots of reasons to not vote National. Real numbers, not made up ones.

http://werewolf.co.nz/2014/09/third-term-losers/

Great to see you once again refer to your much admired and unbiased "journalist" Rod Oram. He's got about as much credibility as David Cunliffe, ZILCH !

nextbigthing
14-09-2014, 08:45 PM
Lots of reasons to not vote National. Real numbers, not made up ones.

http://werewolf.co.nz/2014/09/third-term-losers/

Looks like a nice balanced article el Z...

nextbigthing
14-09-2014, 08:51 PM
Great to see you once again refer to your much admired and unbiased "journalist" Rod Oram. He's got about as much credibility as David Cunliffe, ZILCH !

Josie Pagani was brilliant on TV3 the other night, showed her level of intelligence. She claimed you could prove that raising the minimum wage wouldn't cost jobs by using the opposite, that lowering the minimum wage wouldn't create jobs. Well Josie you are an idiot. If the mimimum wage was lowered to say $5, I'd have two full time PA's, a full time gofer etc just because I could. These would be new jobs.

How does someone so stupid get a position like hers? Put there by someone even more stupid?

elZorro
14-09-2014, 08:58 PM
Josie Pagani was brilliant on TV3 the other night, showed her level of intelligence. She claimed you could prove that raising the minimum wage wouldn't cost jobs by using the opposite, that lowering the minimum wage wouldn't create jobs. Well Josie you are an idiot. If the mimimum wage was lowered to say $5, I'd have two full time PA's, a full time gofer etc just because I could. These would be new jobs.

How does someone so stupid get a position like hers? Put there by someone even more stupid?

I think if you heard her correctly, she was careful to say "with a moderate change of this order". In the depression, many business families had maids helping at home, because they could afford them. Times were really tough.

fungus pudding
15-09-2014, 06:53 AM
Josie Pagani was brilliant on TV3 the other night, showed her level of intelligence. She claimed you could prove that raising the minimum wage wouldn't cost jobs by using the opposite, that lowering the minimum wage wouldn't create jobs. Well Josie you are an idiot. If the mimimum wage was lowered to say $5, I'd have two full time PA's, a full time gofer etc just because I could. These would be new jobs.

How does someone so stupid get a position like hers? Put there by someone even more stupid?

On the radio the other day, and also in the Herald, she claimed that no landlord would have any idea when and how they were taxed under the present system.(which is dead simple) Now that shows a total lack of understanding of business which is Labour's single biggest problem.
On the subject of lowering job numbers by arbitrarily raising wages, Jamie Whyte on TV debate explained that increasing the prices of anything lowered demand. Materea Turei replied 'that's rubbish'. Shouldn't be long before she publishes a book on economics.

Sgt Pepper
15-09-2014, 09:47 AM
Great to see you once again refer to your much admired and unbiased "journalist" Rod Oram. He's got about as much credibility as David Cunliffe, ZILCH !

Iceman

Rod Oram seems to be singled out because he he articulates concerns regarding the economic direction, lack of diversification, over reliance on one market, and problems relating to scale and innovation. Seems pretty sensible stuff to me. He was a economics/business journalist with the London Financial Times, hardly a hotbed of Marxist intrigue. Just because someone doesn't worship at the altar of duplicitous John doesn't invalidate their business credentials

Major von Tempsky
15-09-2014, 02:32 PM
Rod Oram is a devotee of the centrally planned economy, picking winners and the siege economy, a disciple of Bill Sutch.
In other words he's a part of a museum exhibit which has temporarily escaped from custody.

ari
15-09-2014, 02:54 PM
I did delude to this and got shot down..............(Yep....but the next one (1 week out) with Dotcom will be a doozy........linking Key to the FBI raid!)
Thats right FP

John Key had absolutely no knowledge of the pending raid, as he has reiterated on many occasions, not only that he had never even heard of Kim Dot Com prior to his arrest. Thus we should take him at his word. Unless evidence is presented otherwise, because if it is and he has lied to Parliament???? then he is in a LOT of trouble and in comparison Pinnochhio will seem like Mother Theresa
.......YEAH RIGHT! But now it's all just lies.....

fungus pudding
15-09-2014, 02:59 PM
I did delude to this and got shot down..............(Yep....but the next one (1 week out) with Dotcom will be a doozy........linking Key to the FBI raid!)
.......YEAH RIGHT! But now it's all just lies.....

What FBI raid?

ari
15-09-2014, 03:02 PM
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11324988

ari
15-09-2014, 03:07 PM
What FBI raid?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/national-news/9739447/Dotcom-warrants-defective-but-legal

fungus pudding
15-09-2014, 04:08 PM
http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/national-news/9739447/Dotcom-warrants-defective-but-legal


That was a police raid.

nextbigthing
15-09-2014, 04:32 PM
So where's KDC live streaming this 'election game changer'?

Sgt Pepper
15-09-2014, 04:38 PM
Rod Oram is a devotee of the centrally planned economy, picking winners and the siege economy, a disciple of Bill Sutch.
In other words he's a part of a museum exhibit which has temporarily escaped from custody.

thats right Major
Dont forget to put the Financial Times on your list of leftist commie media stirrers

Xerof
15-09-2014, 05:28 PM
Haha, if Krim.drop.bomb is going to produce an incriminating email, he could at least get someone else to draft it for him.

Heading : MegaRIP -really?

Ref to JK - 'he's a fan'

read it with a german accent......too funny

westerly
15-09-2014, 05:51 PM
On the radio the other day, and also in the Herald, she claimed that no landlord would have any idea when and how they were taxed under the present system.(which is dead simple) Now that shows a total lack of understanding of business which is Labour's single biggest problem.
On the subject of lowering job numbers by arbitrarily raising wages, Jamie Whyte on TV debate explained that increasing the prices of anything lowered demand. Materea Turei replied 'that's rubbish'. Shouldn't be long before she publishes a book on economics.

As the price of just about everything from houses, to milk, to gst have all gone up under National it seems Jamie Whyte has it wrong. People are still buying.
It would appear most landlords are not running a business, they have just bought another house to rent out and make their retirement easier.

westerly

nextbigthing
15-09-2014, 06:05 PM
People are still buying.
westerly

Houses and milk are necessities westerly.

Secondly, maybe they haven't stopped buying because National has the balance right and people can afford more in real terms. This National government you speak of sounds pretty good.

Major von Tempsky
15-09-2014, 07:04 PM
Great to see you once again refer to your much admired and unbiased "journalist" Rod Oram. He's got about as much credibility as David Cunliffe, ZILCH !

There are obvious reasons why Rod Oram was permanently banished to the back page of the Sunday Star Times and there is at least 1 letter a week protesting his very obvious political bias and irrational economics...

Minerbarejet
15-09-2014, 08:46 PM
So whats going on then. Now we are all under surveillance everyone too frightened to speak?
Internet Party hooha, thats all that was. What on earth has the political arena in NZ come to.
This has been the craziest lead up to an election ever.
And I'm still voting Nat/Con
Not that anyone gives a stuff anyway.

minimoke
15-09-2014, 09:00 PM
So whats going on then. Now we are all under surveillance everyone too frightened to speak?
Internet Party hooha, thats all that was. What on earth has the political arena in NZ come to.
once I've finished making my tin foil hat ill get back to you

Dej
15-09-2014, 10:30 PM
This election has really just been a big squabble at best. I know my policies, and I know who I'm voting for, but one main thing that stood out to me is when a labour supporter is talking about what national has 'done' and you come back with hard factual evidence in the contrary, they immediately revert to name calling and person-blaming, rather than rational thoughtout argument argument. To me this shows a lot.

craic
16-09-2014, 08:08 AM
Last night The Fat German produced an email to "prove" that JK is a liar. JK claims that the email is a forgery. The supposed author of the email states that he did not send any such email and that it is a forgery. The email is a Document, in NZ law, and therefore should be investigated by the Police with a view to prosecuting either the author or the presenter. In my years in the system, forgers and presenter of forgeries were regularly prosecuted for far lesser crimes of forgery than this. He would be interviewed by the Police and required to show the forgery and state where he got it from in the first instance. If he failed to cooperate then he would be charged with presenting a forged document.

Xerof
16-09-2014, 08:10 AM
So whats going on then. Now we are all under surveillance everyone too frightened to speak?
Internet Party hooha, thats all that was. What on earth has the political arena in NZ come to.
This has been the craziest lead up to an election ever.
And I'm still voting Nat/Con
Not that anyone gives a stuff anyway.

yes, I can hear them breathing on my line, so won't say too much....

I can confirm that the NSA mole 'north of Auckland' resides in a mansion in Coatsville. Don't tell krim.drop.bomb though.......

iceman
16-09-2014, 08:33 AM
Interesting to listen to Sean Plunkett and David Fisher from the NZ Herald both believing yesterday's event in Auckland has to be classed as a party political meeting run and organised by the Internet Party. Greenwald made it clear when he thanked the Internet Party for bringing him there.
As such it should have been clearly displayed as being such an event and all costs need to be declared on the Electoral Return. Just ask John Banks what happens if you miss some expenses on the return. Ironic isn't it !

Sgt Pepper
16-09-2014, 08:36 AM
yes, I can hear them breathing on my line, so won't say too much....

I can confirm that the NSA mole 'north of Auckland' resides in a mansion in Coatsville. Don't tell krim.drop.bomb though.......

Imagine some poor NSA operative who was tasked with intercepting John Keys communications. His or her daily report on activity would consist of:

1. subject consistently, when communicating proclaims " at the end of the day"

2. Internet searches consist of 2 main items
a) Weather in Hawaii
b) Bill Clinton speeches

Banksie
16-09-2014, 09:06 AM
So I have a question for the National supports, do they believe comments such as these are befitting of our prime minister?

"There is no mass surveillance of New Zealanders by the GCSB and there never has been. Mr Dotcom's little henchman will be proven to be incorrect because he is incorrect."


"People got really wound up about me calling him Dotcom's little henchman. I would have a modicum of respect for the guy if he had the guts to turn up here six months before the election, or six months after. If this loser is going to come to town and try and tell me, five days before an election, staying at the Dotcom mansion with all the Dotcom people and being paid by Dotcom, that he's doing anything other than Dotcom's bidding - please don't insult me with that."


"Dotcom is trying to save Dotcom's butt, and it's a reasonably large one so he's bought in all of these people, three little butts to save his butt, and it won't work but they'll say and do anything and bamoozle people,"

blackcap
16-09-2014, 09:12 AM
So I have a question for the National supports, do they believe comments such as these are befitting of our prime minister?

"There is no mass surveillance of New Zealanders by the GCSB and there never has been. Mr Dotcom's little henchman will be proven to be incorrect because he is incorrect."


"People got really wound up about me calling him Dotcom's little henchman. I would have a modicum of respect for the guy if he had the guts to turn up here six months before the election, or six months after. If this loser is going to come to town and try and tell me, five days before an election, staying at the Dotcom mansion with all the Dotcom people and being paid by Dotcom, that he's doing anything other than Dotcom's bidding - please don't insult me with that."


"Dotcom is trying to save Dotcom's butt, and it's a reasonably large one so he's bought in all of these people, three little butts to save his butt, and it won't work but they'll say and do anything and bamoozle people,"

I do not have a problem with this whatsoever. Dotcom has been undermining the democratic process in NZ for some time now and Key has had to take a lot of abuse that was based on unsubstantiated rumour and innuendo. Fair call Key, go you good thing.

iceman
16-09-2014, 09:13 AM
So I have a question for the National supports, do they believe comments such as these are befitting of our prime minister?

"There is no mass surveillance of New Zealanders by the GCSB and there never has been. Mr Dotcom's little henchman will be proven to be incorrect because he is incorrect."




"People got really wound up about me calling him Dotcom's little henchman. I would have a modicum of respect for the guy if he had the guts to turn up here six months before the election, or six months after. If this loser is going to come to town and try and tell me, five days before an election, staying at the Dotcom mansion with all the Dotcom people and being paid by Dotcom, that he's doing anything other than Dotcom's bidding - please don't insult me with that."


"Dotcom is trying to save Dotcom's butt, and it's a reasonably large one so he's bought in all of these people, three little butts to save his butt, and it won't work but they'll say and do anything and bamoozle people,"

Yes without hesitation

Harvey Specter
16-09-2014, 09:15 AM
Definition of 'Henchman:


a trusted follower or supporter who performs unpleasant, wrong, or illegal tasks for a powerful person (such as a politician or criminal)

Banksie
16-09-2014, 09:28 AM
Yes without hesitation

So none of you think "Dotcom is trying to save Dotcom's butt, and it's a reasonably large one so he's bought in all of these people, three little butts to save his butt" is a little bit childish?

Harvey Specter
16-09-2014, 09:30 AM
So none of you think "Dotcom is trying to save Dotcom's butt, and it's a reasonably large one so he's bought in all of these people, three little butts to save his butt" is a little bit childish?Yes - I think this whole situation is childish and we should be discussion policies that make NZ the best place in the world to live.

fungus pudding
16-09-2014, 09:38 AM
Yes without hesitation

I certainly agree with the first two points. The third is not so clear. I simply do not know what Dotcom's motives are, but I fail to see how his stated aim of changing the govt. will stop his extradition unless the new govt. is led by the Greens; almost impossible. I think he's just motivated by hatred.

fungus pudding
16-09-2014, 09:39 AM
So none of you think "Dotcom is trying to save Dotcom's butt, and it's a reasonably large one so he's bought in all of these people, three little butts to save his butt" is a little bit childish?

You weren't round in Muldoon's day, or Lange's, were you!

iceman
16-09-2014, 09:50 AM
So none of you think "Dotcom is trying to save Dotcom's butt, and it's a reasonably large one so he's bought in all of these people, three little butts to save his butt" is a little bit childish?

Yes and like HS has already stated, this whole saga is childish and boring. Read David Fisher on the NZ Herald this morning saying Dotcom came to his much publicised meeting, completely empty handed. He sat there giggling like a teenager and had nothing to say ! I think he just killed off the Internet Party with his " performance"

slimwin
16-09-2014, 09:52 AM
Yep,he's just stating it how the majority will understand it. The crook dot com needs to be out of the country by the next election so policies can be the focus. And thats for all parties sake...

J R Ewing
16-09-2014, 11:05 AM
So I have a question for the National supports, do they believe comments such as these are befitting of our prime minister?

"There is no mass surveillance of New Zealanders by the GCSB and there never has been. Mr Dotcom's little henchman will be proven to be incorrect because he is incorrect."


"People got really wound up about me calling him Dotcom's little henchman. I would have a modicum of respect for the guy if he had the guts to turn up here six months before the election, or six months after. If this loser is going to come to town and try and tell me, five days before an election, staying at the Dotcom mansion with all the Dotcom people and being paid by Dotcom, that he's doing anything other than Dotcom's bidding - please don't insult me with that."


"Dotcom is trying to save Dotcom's butt, and it's a reasonably large one so he's bought in all of these people, three little butts to save his butt, and it won't work but they'll say and do anything and bamoozle people,"

Given the context of the earlier attacks on John Key, and his daughter, the guy is showing much more restraint than I would be capable of in the circumstances.

Banksie
16-09-2014, 11:09 AM
Given the context of the earlier attacks on John Key, and his daughter, the guy is showing much more restraint than I would be capable of in the circumstances.

But it wasn't Glenn Greenwald who attacked JK's daughter. Glenn Greenwald is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist. Surely he deserves a little more respect than being called a "loser" and a "little henchman" by the prime minister of our country.

J R Ewing
16-09-2014, 11:13 AM
Remind me again, why is he over here just now, 5 days before the election? Oh that's right, he's the Dotcom henchman over here for the grand "moment of truth" show. It's not even as if there is another plausible explanation, is there?

Banksie
16-09-2014, 11:23 AM
Remind me again, why is he over here just now, 5 days before the election? Oh that's right, he's the Dotcom henchman over here for the grand "moment of truth" show. It's not even as if there is another plausible explanation, is there?

You are shifting the argument...I am not debating the right or wrong of what dotcom and his crowd are up to...rather I am questioning JK's response to it. Just seems a little bit immature to me. He labelled Greenwald as a "little henchman" (which is very condescending) even before Greenwald had a chance to say anything...and to call him a loser...that is just unnecessary and unstatesmanlike.

Sgt Pepper
16-09-2014, 11:29 AM
Its curious that this morning the former head of GCSB confirmed that GCSB staff are trained to use X_Key Score yet John Key claims no metadata trawling and refuses to discuss X-Key Score. Poor old John Key, looks as though he has reached the boundaries of his ability and stamina on this one. Me thinks Hawaii is looking more attractive for him everyday now. Bill English.. come back!

blackcap
16-09-2014, 11:51 AM
Poor old John Key, looks as though he has reached the boundaries of his ability and stamina on this one. !

Poor old John Key has another 3 years of work in this country if the bookies and all the heavy money are to be believed. Ipredict has him now at an 85% chance to be prime minister up from 80% yesterday. On betfair.com he is at 92% chance and Centerbet still have him laggin at about a 82% chance

craic
16-09-2014, 11:51 AM
Even Harawira must be wondering what he is tied to after all his efforts to forget his past and present as a sensible New Zealander - OOPS! sorry Maori, - after the Dotcom nonsense that is likely to derail him.

nextbigthing
16-09-2014, 12:22 PM
But it wasn't Glenn Greenwald who attacked JK's daughter. Glenn Greenwald is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist. Surely he deserves a little more respect than being called a "loser" and a "little henchman" by the prime minister of our country.

Cameron Slater is an award winning journalist. What's your point? :D

Banksie
16-09-2014, 12:24 PM
Cameron Slater is an award winning journalist. What's your point? :D

I wouldn't expect a PM to call Slater a "loser" and a "little henchman" either. In fact I would expect a PM to have nothing to do with someone like Slater.

blackcap
16-09-2014, 12:40 PM
I wouldn't expect a PM to call Slater a "loser" and a "little henchman" either. In fact I would expect a PM to have nothing to do with someone like Slater.

Banksie, go have a read at "The Standard" which allegedly comes out of David Cunliffe's office and then contrast that with Slater's "Whaleoil" blog. Tell me which one is the more reasoned. The vitriol that the standard produces is extremely off putting and the derogatory language used would make most blush. Contrast that to whaleoil with readership of over 250,000 and I know where I would rather be.

Banksie
16-09-2014, 12:44 PM
The vitriol that the standard produces is extremely off putting and the derogatory language used would make most blush.

I must admit, I don't regularly read The Standard either, only if someone points an article out to me. Do you have an example of an article with vitriol and derogatory language?

Sgt Pepper
16-09-2014, 12:46 PM
Poor old John Key has another 3 years of work in this country if the bookies and all the heavy money are to be believed. Ipredict has him now at an 85% chance to be prime minister up from 80% yesterday. On betfair.com he is at 92% chance and Centerbet still have him laggin at about a 82% chance

I am no doubting he will form a government( of sorts). But I suspect its going to be a strange kind of pyrrhic victory for him, an unpleasant stressful time, trying to accommodate Winston, the right wing of the National Party, looming economic problems, let alone the machinations of younger aspiring leaders ( especially Paula Bennett and Michael Woodhouse)within his cabinet who will be jockeying for power in the post John Key world.
I almost feel sorry for the man. An immensely entertaining though sad spectacle awaits for those who observe politics. By 2017 I am sure he will have wished he had folded his tent in 2014

fungus pudding
16-09-2014, 12:48 PM
I am no doubting he will form a government( of sorts). But I suspect its going to be a strange kind of pyrrhic victory for him, an unpleasant stressful time, trying to accommodate Winston, the right wing of the national party, looming economic problems, let alone the machinations of younger aspiring leaders ( especially Paula Bennett and Michael Woodhouse)within his cabinet who will be jockeying for power in the post John Key world. I almost feel sorry for the man. Although immensely an immensely entertaining though sad spectacle awaits for those who observe politics. By 2017 I am sure he will have wished he had folded his tent in 2014

Wouldn't be anything wrong with Bennett as next National leader - Woodhouse, no.

Sgt Pepper
16-09-2014, 12:52 PM
Have you ever met Michael Woodhouse? quite impressive

iceman
16-09-2014, 12:57 PM
Have you ever met Michael Woodhouse? quite impressive

I reckon he will get Tony Ryall's job in a couple of weeks !

blackcap
16-09-2014, 12:57 PM
I must admit, I don't regularly read The Standard either, only if someone points an article out to me. Do you have an example of an article with vitriol and derogatory language?

Sorry should have been more precise. Its not in the articles they produce themselves that contain the derogatory language more in the comments that they allow that are not moderated to any standard whatsoever. Even today people calling each other "rat****er" and telling you to "**** off" etc etc it really is off putting. Whether you like it or not, Slater's blog has got a lot more professional in the last year and its readership is continuing to rise dramatically.

blackcap
16-09-2014, 12:59 PM
I am no doubting he will form a government( of sorts). But I suspect its going to be a strange kind of pyrrhic victory for him, an unpleasant stressful time, trying to accommodate Winston, the right wing of the National Party, looming economic problems, let alone the machinations of younger aspiring leaders ( especially Paula Bennett and Michael Woodhouse)within his cabinet who will be jockeying for power in the post John Key world.
I almost feel sorry for the man. An immensely entertaining though sad spectacle awaits for those who observe politics. By 2017 I am sure he will have wished he had folded his tent in 2014

Maybe maybe not. If the cons get over 5% I think he will be very happy to govern without winston. That is the reason I voted cons this time. Apart from that he may have a bit more of a difficult time than the last 3 years granted, but he does not need to be in politics to survive as many other MP's so that in itself saves JK.

Sgt Pepper
16-09-2014, 01:04 PM
I reckon he will get Tony Ryall's job in a couple of weeks !
I am certain you are right, he has the ideal background as well as formal health qualifications, and apparently actually wants the job. However sometime inexplicable appointments are made I would point out to that Tony Ryalls tenure was marked by very benign industrial climate within the sector.
Believe me, that is all about to change

craic
16-09-2014, 01:06 PM
And what happens if the result is a complete rout of the opposition? What if Winston loses and Craig gets over the line? What if Harawira fails to regain his seat. All of that would be just as entertaining. But maybe not for the left? I'm off the wine at present as part of a diet but if my wishes come true then on Sunday morning there will be a heap of empty bottles and a big smile on my face - even if I am still unconcious.
I am no doubting he will form a government( of sorts). But I suspect its going to be a strange kind of pyrrhic victory for him, an unpleasant stressful time, trying to accommodate Winston, the right wing of the National Party, looming economic problems, let alone the machinations of younger aspiring leaders ( especially Paula Bennett and Michael Woodhouse)within his cabinet who will be jockeying for power in the post John Key world.
I almost feel sorry for the man. An immensely entertaining though sad spectacle awaits for those who observe politics. By 2017 I am sure he will have wished he had folded his tent in 2014

fungus pudding
16-09-2014, 01:07 PM
I reckon he will get Tony Ryall's job in a couple of weeks !
Possibly - he certainly knows his way round the hospital world.

Sgt Pepper
16-09-2014, 01:32 PM
And what happens if the result is a complete rout of the opposition? What if Winston loses and Craig gets over the line? What if Harawira fails to regain his seat. All of that would be just as entertaining. But maybe not for the left? I'm off the wine at present as part of a diet but if my wishes come true then on Sunday morning there will be a heap of empty bottles and a big smile on my face - even if I am still unconcious.

Craic

having to listen to John Key speeches for another 3 years will be a far more effective way to send me to sleep than either my Bombay Sapphire or Johnny Walker

slimwin
16-09-2014, 02:08 PM
Hearing the infighting in a cobbleded together left would send me to bed..

Sgt Pepper
16-09-2014, 02:52 PM
Hearing the infighting in a cobbleded together left would send me to bed..

slim
Nah, John Key wins hands down, once he has repeated " at the end of the day" several times you find yourself in a deep slumber

Banksie
16-09-2014, 03:13 PM
"Will the real slimwin please stand up!" :D

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11325727

craic
16-09-2014, 03:22 PM
I am stunned to learn that someone on this forum wastes time listening to speeches by politicians. And I am just as surprised to learn that there are still people who drink Johnny Walker. I sipped my way through a bottle of Grants recently - straight - and then in a moment of madness bought a bottle of JW Red Label - I was in Australia and away from my own supply. It was terrible and it took me a week to get through it. As to Bombay Sapphire, read a book - I think it's called "Lady Geneva" and it covers the period when half the cities of England remained in a plastered state all day on gin, often paid as wages. QUOTE=Sgt Pepper;504931]Craic

having to listen to John Key speeches for another 3 years will be a far more effective way to send me to sleep than either my Bombay Sapphire or Johnny Walker[/QUOTE]

Sgt Pepper
16-09-2014, 03:52 PM
I think the National Party will need several bottles of Johhny Walker now that that they are being sued by Enimen for breach of copyright. If Enimen is successful they will have to have some serious fundraising to pay the damages..

whats Oravidas number again????

Sgt Pepper
16-09-2014, 05:58 PM
If the National Party is unsuccessful in its defence of copyright infringement should it also, like Dot Com, be extradited to the United States??

nextbigthing
16-09-2014, 06:29 PM
Banksie, when you boil it all down, what's your number one reason for voting left of center?

Minerbarejet
16-09-2014, 06:32 PM
Oh I see whats happening here, there's an underhand plot to make NZ the 51st state of the US so that Cot Dom can be arrested without being extradited. Very clever. Now, where did I put that Laphroaig?

elZorro
16-09-2014, 07:46 PM
Banksie, when you boil it all down, what's your number one reason for voting left of center?

NBT, I have the link to answer your question. I entered this survey.

http://campaign.labour.org.nz/our_story_results?utm_campaign=140916_story2&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nzlabour

craic
16-09-2014, 08:58 PM
I have now set up my distillery to produce all forms of Scotch and Laphroaig is on the list. But I still have two bottles of Glenfiddish to get through first. The idea of being a state of the USA appeals to me as does the idea of being part of Australia.
Oh I see whats happening here, there's an underhand plot to make NZ the 51st state of the US so that Cot Dom can be arrested without being extradited. Very clever. Now, where did I put that Laphroaig?

nextbigthing
16-09-2014, 09:22 PM
NBT, I have the link to answer your question. I entered this survey.

http://campaign.labour.org.nz/our_story_results?utm_campaign=140916_story2&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nzlabour


Firstly el Z, cheers for your time. I appreciate a lefty trying to put forward their views on a site such as this and in a political environment such as this. It's good to debate with someone who's more interested in theory, morals and policy than distractions such as he said she said etc.

Re my question to Banksie, I was after just the one thing to sum it up, there's many things on the link you gave.

The one reoccuring theme on that site you linked, that 'Silent T' (DC) also referred to a lot during the last leaders debate was equality. So lets roll with your answer being, I vote left of centre due to my belief in the importance of equality.

In a nutshell, Labour achieve this by taxing those at the top more and giving it to those on the bottom. How is this fair though? Who is the government to decide that they can take from me and give to someone else because they believe it's fairer. How is that fair to the guy who against his/her will is being forced by the Government to give up possessions (money) to another person? People being forced to do things against their will by another person (or Governments) should be minimised where-ever possible!
I absolutely agree some tax needs to be paid and I also absolutely agree some people genuinely need help and taxing the richest a little to give to them is the fairest way of doing so. But provided everyone is fed, housed, clothed etc then after that leave it alone. How can a Government tell me that they know what's the best way to spend my money.
A classic example of this is a chap I went to school with. Funny guy, great sense of humour. Loves to party. Said person was complaining on Facebook the other day that they were creating all this music as a full time composer and yet they had no money and how b#llsh!t the National Government and 'the system' was. Well it's quite simple buddy. People don't want to be taxed 39% or more so you can sit around and party when you feel like it and make a little music from time to time. Find a more productive job and do that in your spare time. This sort of stuff is why we don't want to be taxed 39%.
Let me be clear, I'm not talking about such little tax that there's not a reasonable safety net for people who genuinely need it. I'm talking about freedom of choice and individual rights. Tax as little as possible to ensure everyone is looked after, but after that, let freedom rule. If someone wants to pick an easier career with less pay so they can spend more time with the outdoors they love for example, fine, great, but don't you dare tell me to subsidise that Mr Cunliffe, no way! That's their choice.
I believe a top tax rate of 33% if sufficient to provide a safety net and ensure everyone is looked after. After that, freedom of choice for an individual is surely more important than a Government engineering society and telling me how to live.
It's for this reason I believe Labour isn't worth a shot, National is.

Why else might one want to vote for Labour?
Better healthcare? I absolutely believe in free accessible healthcare for all. Yet the ironic thing is that the health system wasn't coping under Labour, National come in and cut managers by 1000 and increase doctors by something like 2000. I don't hear the complaints from the health system like I used to under Helen Clarks watch. So one reason to vote for Labour, better healthcare, you're actually better off voting National!!! They are getting it done, National are actually rolling out a socialist policy better than Labour!

Education - NZ has a great education system despite what some would like to have you believe. Sure you end up with a student loan - so you should. It just means you're accountable. It's accessible. No need to vote Labour on that one.

Perhaps you could look at equality in other ways other than tax. Eg saying Maori make up 15% of the population, so let's ensure they make up 15% of plum Government jobs. So poor old Mr x turns up for the interview but gets told sorry, we can't give you the job as you're non Maori. How on Earth is that fair. It's not. It's racist bullsh!t.

Equality is an honorable thought. But someone has to pay against their will. A Government forcing people to do things against their will when safety isn't at stake isn't cool.

Why else would you vote Labour etc?

To those who like to reply to this, please have the decency to read the whole article and reply in context to the nature of the whole post, not just pick off a sentence and reply out of context.

Cheers,

NBT

elZorro
17-09-2014, 06:47 AM
NBT, you have fair enough points of view, I'm sure they are shared by many.

However, the truth is that everyone pays taxes of some sort. Every litre of fuel, nearly 50% of it is GST and excise taxes. GST on all food and normal household spending except rent, etc. Therefore, if the govt taxes all of us who are working with net income tax, and only a small portion of it ends up with beneficiaries or for a topup to incomes, then some of that money gets recycled to the govt anyway. More money in the system means retailers do better than they would have otherwise, which in turn creates jobs.

Sgt Pepper would know if what you say about the health sector is correct. But as far as musicians go, and I've met a few, they can be very talented, and I'd like to see them paid what they are worth. Yet pubs, private people, seem to think that a 3-piece band can be paid $600 or so, and that's good money. $200 per person to practise for free, buy gear and keep it going, lug it to a gig, play to the small hours, lug the gear back home and unpack it. Often they don't get offered food or free drinks either. This is the same sort of money they were paid 20 years ago. They are in a time warp. Unless you get 3-4 gigs a week at that sort of money, you can't make a bare living from it, but you should be able to. Even older acts who are relatively famous, get asked to do free gigs for fundraisers. Get real, NZ, this is their job, their career. If you want them, pay the going rate at least.

On tertiary education, I went through for free a few decades back. Now students have to pay about 30% of the costs, which will ensure they have to be keen to stick at it. But still, the quality of the output seems not much better than it ever was, the feed-in from schools seems lower grade in some areas. Links to the outside world are better then they were, could still be improved. But if everything was more equal, students allowed to head to universities and polytechnics would have their courses paid for. We could afford it in the past, why not in the future?

So how do we build a NZ that isn't going backwards in terms of indebtedness, terms of trade and inequality? Not by more of the same from National. We have to work and invest in a lot smarter way. National has undone steps Labour took to get us there, an unforgiveable neo-liberal course that will keep most of us poor.

You're right, I will be very disappointed if National get to stay in charge of our country.

nextbigthing
17-09-2014, 07:54 AM
el Z, someone becoming a musician is a choice. Their choice. They know the deal when they get into it, poor pay, long hours but perhaps more enjoyable than some jobs. Why should I be taxed more to prop these people up when they made that choice?
The answer is I shouldn't! And my point is this, if they can't find work, we need to support and protect them. But if they choose a low paid career because it's their interest, that's there choice. Don't punish me for that. 33% seems to be enough to provide a safety net. 39% seems to be the government taking from me so someone else can have a more fun career. Not cool!

Musicians made a choice. Don't penalize me for that.

Cheers

westerly
17-09-2014, 09:20 AM
[QUOTE=nextbigthing;505023]Firstly el Z, cheers for your time. I appreciate a lefty trying to put forward their views on a site such as this and in a political environment such as this. It's good to debate with someone who's more interested in theory, morals and policy than distractions such as he said she said etc.

Re my question to Banksie, I was after just the one thing to sum it up, there's many things on the link you gave.

The one reoccuring theme on that site you linked, that 'Silent T' (DC) also referred to a lot during the last leaders debate was equality. So lets roll with your answer being, I vote left of centre due to my belief in the importance of equality.

Thats where you lost all credibility.

westerly

nextbigthing
17-09-2014, 09:58 AM
That doesn't add much to the debate westerly. What are your credible thoughts on it?

elZorro
17-09-2014, 11:29 AM
el Z, someone becoming a musician is a choice. Their choice. They know the deal when they get into it, poor pay, long hours but perhaps more enjoyable than some jobs. Why should I be taxed more to prop these people up when they made that choice?
The answer is I shouldn't! And my point is this, if they can't find work, we need to support and protect them. But if they choose a low paid career because it's their interest, that's there choice. Don't punish me for that. 33% seems to be enough to provide a safety net. 39% seems to be the government taking from me so someone else can have a more fun career. Not cool!

Musicians made a choice. Don't penalize me for that.

Cheers

NBT, you are not being penalised. Only a small percentage of your income would be taxed at 39% in most cases. Only a small percentage of that extra amount would be paid to beneficiaries and for topups. The rest goes on roading (National's favourite expense) and hospitals, schools, infrastructure, etc. Labour have a policy to ensure that employers decrease their tendency to get the taxpayers to subsidise their cheaper workers. It's called increasing the minimum pay scale by law.

Musicians are taxed by pubs, and get the remainder of their fee in-hand after the gig.

It would be a dull NZ if, when you went into town of a Friday evening, there were no live bands anywhere, just discos and karaoke, or music channels on a TV screen. Part of the problem is that nightclubs get kickstarted from say 11pm onwards, with many patrons already boozed up on cheap supermarket alcohol. They need a lot of patrons buying $20 average a night, to cover their staff costs and weekly overheads, let alone a band. We should all be happy to pay a cover charge, and then everyone gets what they want.

fungus pudding
17-09-2014, 12:13 PM
NBT, you have fair enough points of view, I'm sure they are shared by many.

However, the truth is that everyone pays taxes of some sort. Every litre of fuel, nearly 50% of it is GST and excise taxes. GST on all food and normal household spending except rent, etc. Therefore, if the govt taxes all of us who are working with net income tax, and only a small portion of it ends up with beneficiaries or for a topup to incomes, then some of that money gets recycled to the govt anyway. More money in the system means retailers do better than they would have otherwise, which in turn creates jobs.

Sgt Pepper would know if what you say about the health sector is correct. But as far as musicians go, and I've met a few, they can be very talented, and I'd like to see them paid what they are worth. Yet pubs, private people, seem to think that a 3-piece band can be paid $600 or so, and that's good money. $200 per person to practise for free, buy gear and keep it going, lug it to a gig, play to the small hours, lug the gear back home and unpack it. Often they don't get offered food or free drinks either. This is the same sort of money they were paid 20 years ago. They are in a time warp. Unless you get 3-4 gigs a week at that sort of money, you can't make a bare living from it, but you should be able to.

I'm struggling to believe what I'm reading!! I presume you want a minimum income then for all businesses with talented or clever owners! I know lots of commission salesmen - some of great ability who have had tough years - tough times. I also have several friends who are musicians. Some have been able to make a damn good living while others have found other employment and continue with music as a part time / hobby thing. i'ts a crowded industry. Go to a pub in the states and you may well find a top rate band playing for nothing. I struck one lot in Florida once who were resident band in one bar and had been for a year - they were not paid at all - but they were getting exposure. That's the name of that game worldwide and it's perfectly fair. It's not compulsory to be a musician. Move into the real world eZ!