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elZorro
27-05-2015, 07:00 PM
EZ, there's hope for Labour but they need to change their positioning if they want to govern again. I sense they are too 'mainstream' and not really that much different from National. They will only win in 2017 if the punters want new faces running he country, policies won't drive change.


Spain's a funny country. They had municipal and regional elections recently with some interesting results. Parties which had social or regional causes as their platforms did very well, based on high levels of community engagement and real passion. This no doubt will roll over to upcoming national elections.

As with Greece and to some extent the UK the political world is changing. Labour could become that champion of the people in NZ, but not where they are positioned now. Maybe to win they have to forget about left or right or centrist tags (whatever they mean) and become the party with compassion, organised compassion, and lead the conversation about how we can make NZ fairer and more equal for all.

Anyway EZ, have a read of this. I think there are messages somewhere in there for Labour
http://wire.novaramedia.com/2015/05/6-reflections-on-the-spanish-elections/

I agree with you W69, and from what I see of the party members, most of them would too. The problem is getting this message out in volume with legwork and flyer drops, when National is using fullsize billboards, media ads and very active social media campaigns. Plus, they are in office. I'm working on some ideas..

winner69
27-05-2015, 07:06 PM
eZ, And they have a record number of employees as well

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/68914078/Public-servant-numbers-hit-new-high-or-drop-depending-on-measure?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Daytr
27-05-2015, 08:08 PM
The point is how do you handover 7k clients in a week!
These are people who are having counseling.
Its an unreasonable to think that can anywhere near be achieved without some vulnerable people likely to fall through the cracks.
The other agencies that are supposed to pick them up have already stated they cannot handle the new clients.
Sound familiar? Sounds very much like the debacle that was over State Housing & the Salvos.




The issues have been ongoing for years. If you look at the most recent financial records on their website, their spending looks way OTT. And apparently, according to Stuff, the organisation failed to failed to deliver on up to 30 per cent of its contracts. So, give them more money? Perhaps not.

Sgt Pepper
27-05-2015, 08:12 PM
Sgt Pepper, you overlooked the small but important point that it is not the "Progressive" Union that gets to vote in the NZ elections. And that in non Anglo Saxon countries the trade unions do not run and dominate the Social Democrat Parties. In France and Italy these Trade Union regressives typically belong to each country's Communist Party.

And the point that 71% of the voters of the UK now see themselves as Middle Class (a change in a matter of just 20 years) seems to have completely gone over your head. You are not going to win their vote with old fashioned class warfare Labour Party stuff. I agree you could make a start by changing the name of the Labour Party to Social Democrat Party and by removing the vote of affiliated unions.


Major
Found this quote from an article in a Briitsh paper analysing German Trade Unions

"German workers are also envied for their corporate power. Their influence within larger companies is guaranteed by their seats on supervisory boards; this gives them a say in the hiring and firing of management and decisions over company strategy. Such a system is lauded"

As an economist what is your view. Has German industrial relations legislation
got it right? Something we could aspire to? Or has this got absolutely nothing to do with the stellar economic success of Germany?

Major von Tempsky
27-05-2015, 08:40 PM
I suspect that as usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle. German union reps have been there for many decades but I partly recall an article in The Economist several years ago which pointed out it is only some companies and/or certain sized companies. Maybe someone here has some statistics on it?

I also recall that participation was refused in some cases because union board reps had to carry the can on throttling off wage increases unmatched by extra productivity. You would also have to give the reps a crash course in cost accounting and economics. I suspect in NZ that the unions would refuse to participate if they had to take some responsibility for putting prices up, making jobs redundant and holding wage increases down. All needed to be done at times for the company to survive. They might also find joint responsibility onerous, if a majority of the Board voted a way the union reps don't agree with what happens? Leaks to the media, throwing toys out of cot, mass resignations. End of NZ experiment.

To answer you, yes I think Germany has got it more right than NZ but I think the mature, responsible educated view of German Unions and the German workforce is light years in advance of NZ. But you also need to remember that the Greek, Spanish, Irish, Portuguese, Cypriot crises have played out in Germany's favour. Why? Because they have all served to weaken the Euro making German exports far more competitive than they would be if they still used the Deutschemark. They have also served to keep inflation down in the Eurozone and to provide a ready supply of both skilled and unskilled labour. While the Germans publicly grizzle about these crises they must know they are very much to Germany's advantage. I don't think the National Government could force through German Industrial Relations in the NZ Parliament.

fungus pudding
28-05-2015, 04:44 AM
The point is how do you handover 7k clients in a week!
These are people who are having counseling.
Its an unreasonable to think that can anywhere near be achieved without some vulnerable people likely to fall through the cracks.
The other agencies that are supposed to pick them up have already stated they cannot handle the new clients.
Sound familiar? Sounds very much like the debacle that was over State Housing & the Salvos.

For a start, the real number of clients is apparently 4,500.

elZorro
28-05-2015, 06:55 AM
eZ, And they have a record number of employees as well

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/68914078/Public-servant-numbers-hit-new-high-or-drop-depending-on-measure?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

This continues a trend, W69. It's no wonder they have never been able to balance their books, they have more public servants now, than when they took office in 2008. Despite trying to tell the public the opposite, and how dangerous Labour were, for taking on too many public sector staff.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/63849330/Public-servant-numbers-climb

So, to reiterate: National take office in 2008 just as the GFC starts to bite. Very soon afterwards they drop SME business incentives like R&D tax credits, but boost funds to just a few large businesses with borrowed funds they don't have. They reduce tax rates for the already well off, they increase the rate of GST, they steadily increase the number of public servants in non public-facing areas, and label them with a different name. They watch while manufacturing businesses close down, piling semi-skilled workers onto the dole and putting downward pressure on wage rates. They continue to spend more than they bring in from taxes and levies for seven years straight, and they have the ability to change that at any point, but they choose not to.

Staying in office is their number one priority- you have to wonder why they are there, if overall NZ prosperity is their aim, then they're doing a very poor job of it. Who are these National puppets, and who are pulling the strings?

Daytr
28-05-2015, 07:30 AM
For a start where does your apparently come from?
Every media report I have read & I am talking more than half a dozen, all quote 7k.
Again, the point I underline is even if it was 4.5k clients which I am doubting, how on earth is the transition supposed to be handled well without fallout for vulnerable people falling through the cracks. This is one of my biggest issues with National they jump on something & they don't weigh the social cost of their actions. The initial assessment for change could be a correct however the implementation is generally far too swift without proper engagement & a transitional plan implemented to support those impacted. Its happening in the disability sector. Whole people's lives who are completely vulnerable & quite often cannot speak up for themselves, have their future in doubt.
Social housing again is similar. Its apparent that social housing needed restructure or change, however National see this as an opportunity to offload it rather than fix it.
Similar to this they went off promoting a plan with the Salvos that they had never even discussed with them.
They shoot from the hip !
No forethought or consultation, just bulldozer things through without any thought for who is left hanging by their corporate zeal.


For a start, the real number of clients is apparently 4,500.

Daytr
28-05-2015, 07:53 AM
So National caught up with a bribery scandal with the Saudis.
Using commercial sensitivity as a reason not to fully publicize to the NZ public the details of the $11M paid to a Saudi Arabian businessman.
Did anyone think it was strange that NZ flags were at half mast when the Saudi King died?
I certainly did at the time.
Troops sent to Iraq, meanwhile turning a blind eye to the horror that is going on right next door in Syria.
Saudi Arabia has some of the worst examples of human rights in the world & this is who we want to be in bed with.

I thought the linked article below was interesting & more than anything highlights the complexity of relations in the Mid/East & what NZ involves itself in by being in bed with the US & by default the Saudis & Israel.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119447/saudi-arabias-role-fighting-isis-and-aiding-syrian-rebels

BlackPeter
28-05-2015, 08:50 AM
So National caught up with a bribery scandal with the Saudis.
Using commercial sensitivity as a reason not to fully publicize to the NZ public the details of the $11M paid to a Saudi Arabian businessman.
Did anyone think it was strange that NZ flags were at half mast when the Saudi King died?
I certainly did at the time.
Troops sent to Iraq, meanwhile turning a blind eye to the horror that is going on right next door in Syria.
Saudi Arabia has some of the worst examples of human rights in the world & this is who we want to be in bed with.

I thought the linked article below was interesting & more than anything highlights the complexity of relations in the Mid/East & what NZ involves itself in by being in bed with the US & by default the Saudis & Israel.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119447/saudi-arabias-role-fighting-isis-and-aiding-syrian-rebels

Full heartedly agree - our cosiness with the Saudis is a disgrace - however can't see the Left being here on moral high ground. Any NZ government I can remember was happy to sell out their lip service to human rights if they just could gain a handful more pennies. National as well as Labour. Just remember Helen Clark signing the free trade agreement with China - and than read China's human rights record (which was at the time still worse than it is today). Yes, politics is dirty - no matter on which side you stand.

artemis
28-05-2015, 01:46 PM
The point is how do you handover 7k clients in a week! These are people who are having counseling. Its an unreasonable to think that can anywhere near be achieved without some vulnerable people likely to fall through the cracks. The other agencies that are supposed to pick them up have already stated they cannot handle the new clients. Sound familiar? Sounds very much like the debacle that was over State Housing & the Salvos.

The minister said that the handover is the responsibility of the new organisations, and that the process has been underway for quite sometime. The number of current clients is confusing but may turn out to be a matter of definition (eg have had one or more sessions in the past year, are currently under intensive counselling - who knows). RA will be putting its best spin on numbers. I did hear one organisation say they expect to hire in some RA staff. bottom line is the bottom line- RA did not operate within its budget or 30% of its contracts and MSD has been working with them for several years to improve. And again, look at the huge head office expenses -not exactly front line counselling. Sees they also had a major board clearout recently too - sign of what I wonder.

winner69
28-05-2015, 03:38 PM
Like this tweet


Alex Coleman ‏@ShakingStick

And he sang as he shoved that jumbuck in his tucker bag You'll come a Waltzing McCully with me. #nzqt

Daytr
28-05-2015, 04:50 PM
Well the minister will say that & we should just take their word for it, despite two of the agencies that are picking up some of the load complaining that they have a week to do it & they do not have the resources currently to take up the additional load.
For the 3rd time, I'm on complaining about the service being closed, but the way in which the shut down is being executed.


The minister said that the handover is the responsibility of the new organisations, and that the process has been underway for quite sometime. The number of current clients is confusing but may turn out to be a matter of definition (eg have had one or more sessions in the past year, are currently under intensive counselling - who knows). RA will be putting its best spin on numbers. I did hear one organisation say they expect to hire in some RA staff. bottom line is the bottom line- RA did not operate within its budget or 30% of its contracts and MSD has been working with them for several years to improve. And again, look at the huge head office expenses -not exactly front line counselling. Sees they also had a major board clearout recently too - sign of what I wonder.

Daytr
28-05-2015, 04:52 PM
Tend to agree BP, although Labour didn't cosy up to the US as much as Key does & Labour declined to send troops into combat roles when requested.


Full heartedly agree - our cosiness with the Saudis is a disgrace - however can't see the Left being here on moral high ground. Any NZ government I can remember was happy to sell out their lip service to human rights if they just could gain a handful more pennies. National as well as Labour. Just remember Helen Clark signing the free trade agreement with China - and than read China's human rights record (which was at the time still worse than it is today). Yes, politics is dirty - no matter on which side you stand.

elZorro
28-05-2015, 05:28 PM
Like this tweet


Alex Coleman ‏@ShakingStick

And he sang as he shoved that jumbuck in his tucker bag You'll come a Waltzing McCully with me. #nzqt

I'm trying to think of a good reason for an MP to allocate millions of taxpayers' money to someone who has decided not to proceed with a court action a year earlier. Not that I want to defame anyone.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1505/S00561/mccully-excuses-unravel-in-saudi-sheep-scandal.htm

Daytr
28-05-2015, 08:45 PM
Key looked at doing the dirty on McCully at the last election. He may now regret that he didn't.

BlackPeter
28-05-2015, 09:38 PM
I'm trying to think of a good reason for an MP to allocate millions of taxpayers' money to someone who has decided not to proceed with a court action a year earlier. Not that I want to defame anyone.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1505/S00561/mccully-excuses-unravel-in-saudi-sheep-scandal.htm

Incompetence?

Daytr
29-05-2015, 06:45 AM
Sheepgate ain't going away. Can't pull the wool over our eyes.
This smells worse than a shearing shed in mid summer.
McCully's excuse of it being a form of compensation to prevent a court case is ridiculous.
Don't you reach what is known as an out of court settlement in such cases with an agreement in writing that the will not sue.
No evidence of that despite his claim.
It appears that this is compensation to someone after Key back flipped on returning to live sheep exports when they came to power.
No doubt McCully will be the sacrificial lamb, however Key I'm sure would have known about this & likely approved the deal.
This Saudi is no ordinary wealthy oiler, he is a diplomatic power broker having been the US ambassador at one stage.
The dags are likely to stick on this one! Dodgy!

elZorro
29-05-2015, 06:52 AM
Daytr, it would be interesting to add up the millions lost to the taxpayer because of inept handling of the economy and strange policies, by this govt.

200 jobs to go at Fairfax NZ wide, 50 jobs at Waihi mine, more power to the rock-star economy.


http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/union-goes-into-bat-fairfax-staff-nearly-200-jobs-set-go-6324764?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Friday+29+M ay+2015

Daytr
29-05-2015, 07:33 AM
Hi EZ, I don't think you can lay the blame of these recent job losses at National's feet. More international forces & technology being the underlying reason for these two examples. However don't worry they have plenty on their plates to defend.
This Sheepgate episode smells of corruption at the highest order.
What are examples are there of this. Is Key NZs version of Sepp Blatter.
Everyone else is to blame!
I'm sure with all this anxiety he'll be itching to yank a few ponytails to relive some pressure! ;-)


Daytr, it would be interesting to add up the millions lost to the taxpayer because of inept handling of the economy and strange policies, by this govt.

200 jobs to go at Fairfax NZ wide, 50 jobs at Waihi mine, more power to the rock-star economy.


http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/union-goes-into-bat-fairfax-staff-nearly-200-jobs-set-go-6324764?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Friday+29+M ay+2015

fungus pudding
29-05-2015, 07:39 AM
Hi EZ, I don't think you can lay the blame of these recent job losses at National's feet.


Of course he can. National is always to blame for anything less than desirable, and Labour's actions when they were in power are the cause of all the good things.

craic
29-05-2015, 08:44 AM
Meanwhile, the new Labour Party leader gets out his atlas to find out where Saudi Arabia is and rings a contact in the Conservation Dept., to find out whether or not sheep are a protected native species.

elZorro
29-05-2015, 08:58 AM
Of course he can. National is always to blame for anything less than desirable, and Labour's actions when they were in power are the cause of all the good things.

My point is that National has done so little for the regions (no extra votes out here) that these people will be on the dole for a while, or will displace others onto the dole. Our economy is not expanding, it's contracting. No-one can afford to advertise in the media, hence those Fairfax jobs have gone. The low dairy payout is starting to bite in the regions. National has no answer for this, but they should have spent the last seven years getting new smart exporters up and running.

winner69
29-05-2015, 09:14 AM
My point is that National has done so little for the regions (no extra votes out here) that these people will be on the dole for a while, or will displace others onto the dole. Our economy is not expanding, it's contracting. No-one can afford to advertise in the media, hence those Fairfax jobs have gone. The low dairy payout is starting to bite in the regions. National has no answer for this, but they should have spent the last seven years getting new smart exporters up and running.

Same issue in UK and USA .....if New York doing OK so is all of the USA. If London is booming so is all of Britain. Forget the towns that are dying and the inequality in the regions

Same as in NZ, if Auckland is booming all is honky dory and why worry about regional NZ and small towns.

Maybe that could becLabours focus EZ. In marketing speak win the hearts of souls of the regions and you win the election
.

Daytr
29-05-2015, 09:46 AM
I take it you don't live in regional NZ Winner69?
Why not just do the right thing & look after both?
And actually you are quite wrong about your US example at least anyway.
US elections usually come down to swing States like Iowa, hardly downtown Manhatten now is it.
The UK election's big swing was in Scotland.

In NZ Auckland/Christchurch is actually reasonably well split between left & right, Wellington & Dunedin is dominated by Labour.
Its actually the regions (read farmers) where National are dominant.
Napier is Labour & obviously Northland is now NZF.
So National ignore the regions at your peril.
Perhaps the downturn in dairy will be the biggest political swing factor.

So your tongue in cheek post perhaps couldn't be further from the truth. ;-)


Same issue in UK and USA .....if New York doing OK so is all of the USA. If London is booming so is all of Britain. Forget the towns that are dying and the inequality in the regions

Same as in NZ, if Auckland is booming all is honky dory and why worry about regional NZ and small towns.

Maybe that could becLabours focus EZ. In marketing speak win the hearts of souls of the regions and you win the election
.

Daytr
29-05-2015, 09:50 AM
And Craic wakes up...
Perhaps it was McCully who thought they were a protected species.
He certainly treated these sheep like royalty with the cost per head being a princely sum!
National have already tried to blame Labour saying this was to mitigate against litigation cause by the banning of live sheep exports.
How long can National continue to blame others for their stuff ups & in this case what looks like corruption, when they are now in their 3rd term!
They sound like children. It wasn't my fault, they did it!


Meanwhile, the new Labour Party leader gets out his atlas to find out where Saudi Arabia is and rings a contact in the Conservation Dept., to find out whether or not sheep are a protected native species.

Daytr
29-05-2015, 10:01 AM
A good article by Richard Wood in the NZH re the government's role or lack of good governance & funding of NGOs running NZs social services.
Cut, cut, cut with no thought of consequence. Change is required in many of these services but National don't want to fix things they just want to scrap them or sell them, anything that will reduce expenditure on social services & plough it into roads.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11456278

BlackPeter
29-05-2015, 10:05 AM
My point is that National has done so little for the regions (no extra votes out here) that these people will be on the dole for a while, or will displace others onto the dole. Our economy is not expanding, it's contracting. No-one can afford to advertise in the media, hence those Fairfax jobs have gone. The low dairy payout is starting to bite in the regions. National has no answer for this, but they should have spent the last seven years getting new smart exporters up and running.

OK - I can agree with your statement that National does not seem to have a plan for the regions. However - Labour is unfortunately (as often) still worse in that regard. National has at least some roots in the regions, Labour does not even seem to realize that there is something outside of the big cities. Give me just one thing Labour did during its reign which was good for the regions - they just tried to kill them off.

Not sure however whether I can understand your rant on Fairfax. So what would Labour do to keep newspapers alive? Ban the internet? Nationalise newspapers and run them at a loss (courtesy to the tax payer)?

Daytr
29-05-2015, 10:11 AM
However BP it could play into NZFs hands. After their success in Northland they should go after regional NZ & ensure they have a candidate in each regional electorate. If Key is still the leader of National, I can't see Winnie doing a deal with them, so you may be correct that Winnie is the next PM, but with a coalition with Labour perhaps.

BlackPeter
29-05-2015, 11:01 AM
However BP it could play into NZFs hands. After their success in Northland they should go after regional NZ & ensure they have a candidate in each regional electorate. If Key is still the leader of National, I can't see Winnie doing a deal with them, so you may be correct that Winnie is the next PM, but with a coalition with Labour perhaps.

I think we both agree that the current political contest of the "lacking" is playing into Winston Peters hands. And yes - it is still a long time until 2017, but if nothing changes than I am pretty sure that Winston will be kingmaker.

The question is - what will Winston do? Obviously - he will try to get the best deal for himself (that's why I could see him as PM), but he still will try to form a stable government he can sell to the people. This might be possible if he finds a strong Labour party driven by people like David Shearer and Kelvin Davis. Not sure yet about Little - I think the unions voted for him (as they did for Cunliffe) to make sure that Labour stays out of power. Obviously - not every unionist is a Labour supporter :p.

Back to Winston - he certainly is not interested in working with a weak Labour fraction playing chicken with a Green party for the most left wing political position. Remember - he wants to go down in history as the saviour of the country - not as the guy who didn't manage to control a political kindergarten. As well - he for sure wants to be knighted for his political achievements - how could this happen if he supports a party hell bent to remove these titles (again)?

As I see it - Winston's best chance to be remembered in history without a bad aftertaste and as "Sir Winston" will be to work with National - and hey, he did it before;).

Daytr
29-05-2015, 11:26 AM
We have just had Dame Jenny 'I'm for sale' Shipley doing one of those "girl power' dinners in Northland.
With people like that being honoured, I'm not sure a knighthood is a blessing.
Love him or hate him, he probably deserves one though, more than most politicians.
Meanwhile Shipley continues to be an embarrassment for National, now being sued as the Chair of Mainzeal.
Its a sad note in history that NZs first female PM was her & that she knifed Bolger in the back whilst overseas to get control & failed to win an election.
I suppose Helen Clark has the honour of being the first & only woman to be elected as NZs PM.
So there is actually a National person I dislike more than John Key, the previous National PM.

BlackPeter
29-05-2015, 12:29 PM
So there is actually a National person I dislike more than John Key, the previous National PM.

I am surprised ... did you forget about Judith Collins?

... or do you credit to her that she (if let lose) might be damaging National as Cunliffe used to damage Labour?

artemis
29-05-2015, 12:48 PM
I think we both agree that the current political contest of the "lacking" is playing into Winston Peters hands. And yes - it is still a long time until 2017, but if nothing changes than I am pretty sure that Winston will be kingmaker.....The question is - what will Winston do?..... As I see it - Winston's best chance to be remembered in history without a bad aftertaste and as "Sir Winston" will be to work with National - and hey, he did it before;).

Mr Peters is not a young man and though he was energetic in Northland it would be surprising if he could - or would want to - keep up that level of energy and activity over a prolonged length of time as PM, Deputy PM, senior minister.

I reckon he will have to work with National to have any hope of getting some of his Northland promises, so it will be fascinating to see the quid pro quos.

Daytr
29-05-2015, 03:25 PM
No she's on the list, in fact top 10, but its a long list. ;-) Simon Bridges ranks above her for me.
But I hope she does do a Mark Anthony to John Key's Julius Cesar as you are right she would be damaging to National.
Although I'm not anti National per say, just the current arrogant, self centered mob who think they can do anything & everything immoral or illegal & get away with it.

Yeah you might be right Artemis, I think he will be 72 or 73 in 2017.
Perhaps he will be PM for a year or two just to get on the list & then pass the reigns to someone else.


I am surprised ... did you forget about Judith Collins?

... or do you credit to her that she (if let lose) might be damaging National as Cunliffe used to damage Labour?

winner69
30-05-2015, 02:25 PM
James Shaw new co-leader of Greens.

National probably laughing all th way to the next election now. Andrew Little pleased and is looking forward to working with him.

Herald already discounting him and no doubt he won't get much good press from them.


He could be the man to make a real impression in 2020. I have heard him talk a few times and I like a lot of what he says. Has been quoted as saying 'This form of capitalism that we have now is incompatible with climate action.'

Follow that through and you my man

winner69
30-05-2015, 03:18 PM
This is Shaw's maiden speech in the House

http://www.inthehouse.co.nz/video/34582

winner69
30-05-2015, 03:31 PM
Shaw might stir things up and bring a bit of excitement to politics

Feed back mixed twitter land.

One of the best has been - Loving the fact that hardcore capitalists and hardcore socialists both imagine that James Shaw is a hardcore capitalist

Hope Little can work with him and not be divisive. Together they could be a powerful partnership and put the ****s into the Nats

winner69
30-05-2015, 03:46 PM
Shaw might stir things up and bring a bit of excitement to politics

Feed back mixed twitter land.

One of the best has been - Loving the fact that hardcore capitalists and hardcore socialists both imagine that James Shaw is a hardcore capitalist

Hope Little can work with him and not be divisive. Together they could be a powerful partnership and put the ****s into the Nats

But then again Key and the Nats could warm to him ....that would sure themselves a job forever

winner69
30-05-2015, 03:50 PM
But then again Key and the Nats could warm to him ....that would sure themselves a job forever

Maybe not ...are the gloves off

From Stuff

Newly-elected Green Party co-leader James Shaw has taken a shot at Prime Minister John Key, saying he should be "careful what he wishes for".

Mr Key this week said he was looking forward to facing off with Mr Shaw - part of a National Party strategy which Mr Shaw said was designed to undermine him.r

BlackPeter
30-05-2015, 04:36 PM
This is Shaw's maiden speech in the House

http://www.inthehouse.co.nz/video/34582

I guess he sounds honest (which is good), he seems to prioritize the environment over left wing political objectives (quite unusual for somebody from the NZ so called Green party), but than he sounds more fundamental than creative ... just another doomsday preacher achieving little?

Anyway - it is progress to have somebody co-leading the Green party who seems to care more about the environment than about the communist party of Australia ... clearly a step into the right (excuse the pun) direction.

BlackPeter
30-05-2015, 04:44 PM
But then again Key and the Nats could warm to him ....that would sure themselves a job forever

Actually - I think the only way for the Greens to ever have a say in the house is if they open up to right and centre and are capable to work with both sides. This would give them some leverage for whatever side they negotiate with. As long as the only way they can think is left, so long the Labour party will take them for granted and the Nats will ignore them. As well - there is only so much voter potential on the left side of the spectrum. Lose - lose (for Green and Labour), though I am sure the Nats are enjoying a political one-eyed Green party - this makes sure that Nat can govern forever commanding the votes of Centre and Right.

Daytr
31-05-2015, 09:05 AM
You Nat supporters are very quiet in regards Sheepgate. This appears to be out and out bribery by a cabinet minister & with the knowledge of the PM.
They have already lied about the reason for the payments trying to blame Labor for banning live sheep exports.
Do you just keep supporting party no matter what they do? How often they lie & I'm not just talking broke promises, but outright lies & now what appears corruption. Its not the first time either, with Collins conflicts of interest etc. The dodgy John Banks scandals, Key's great mate. The sacking of a young MP for abusing a waitress, Maurice Williamson, Mark Sabin the list goes on. Has there been a governing party in NZs history littered with so much scandal let alone illegal behavior. What sort of example does this set for our children if we condone this behavior by electing them.

craic
31-05-2015, 09:47 AM
I got up at six this morning, had breakfast, went up on the hill and worked 'till my chainsaw fell apart and came down for a coffee before we go out. Daytr you seem to have spent your time trying to make mountains out of molehills that would discredit the party that you so dislike. Troubleis, they remain molehills in the view of the electors who are concerned with other aspects of the country's politics. People are happy, for the most part, content with the present management. Even when you line up your molehills at the next election, there will not be enough elevation to raise Winston and the Labour hopefuls to the height they feel they deserve.

Daytr
31-05-2015, 11:05 AM
Amazing that you term corruption as a mole hill.
You are right of course we should remain ignorant & turn a blind eye.

It only took 5 mins to run through the highlights of National's illegal, corrupt & immoral behavior as all of the above mentioned is within the last few yeas.

I actually spent the rest of my time doing similar, but used an axe. ;-)

Major von Tempsky
31-05-2015, 02:02 PM
DayTr is making it up and multiplying it by 10 as he goes along. Gosh, no-one ever knew Banks and Key were "great mates" as one example. How often do they socialize? He's got a handful of minor cases all of them punished by demotion from the Cabinet and/or from Parliament which is just what you would expect. There's also a string of similar and worse cases from Labour if he'd like to exercise his very selective memory. We could start with Darren Hughes for example, a Minister outside Cabinet, who so lost the plot that a man was then seen running down the road without any clothes on to escape a homosexual assault from Hughes. One or two physical assaults from Trevor Mallard. Then there was the double dealing and lies surrounding millionaire Owen Glenn who now backs National as a result. I'm sure there's a number more which people can mention...so I don't have to....
Clean your act up DayTr, Dirty Politics has been tried already and the voters voted against it so that Labour went backwards.

Daytr
31-05-2015, 03:37 PM
Name one thing I have made up? Have you already forgotten the Tea Tapes scandal that John Key refused to release?
Key & Banks were obviously close, well at least until Banks was charged.
So what you are saying is that its ok because Labour are equally as bad.
Not that I'm a Labour supporter, something its taking you a while to wake up to the obvious fact, but 1) I don't think that's the case & 2) even if they were it doesn't make it any better. Two wrongs don't make a right! In fact all it means is that standards in general are steadily slipping.
Seeing you are so keen on hyperbole, what else have I exaggerated? Let alone by a factor of 10!
Isn't that a prime example of an oxymoron, exaggerating how much I have exaggerated.

Major von Tempsky
31-05-2015, 06:25 PM
The reason it was a scandal was that a left wing reporter deliberately placed a tape recording device to overhear a private conversation. He should have served some prison time for that. There is no scandal in two private individuals meeting in a café for what should be a private conversation.

Then there was paintergate where Helen Clark signed a painting she had not painted and then connived in selling it off as her work. Then there was the incident where she urged her driver to deliberately break the speed restrictions by miles to get where she wanted to go. Moral corruption in the Labour Party has a long history, right back at least to Warren Freer in the 1957-60 Labour Government. All the Labour MPs had to dig heavily into their own pockets to try to save him from bankruptcy while he fled to Communist China for some time to avoid due process.

iceman
31-05-2015, 06:40 PM
DayTr is making it up and multiplying it by 10 as he goes along. Gosh, no-one ever knew Banks and Key were "great mates" as one example. How often do they socialize? He's got a handful of minor cases all of them punished by demotion from the Cabinet and/or from Parliament which is just what you would expect. There's also a string of similar and worse cases from Labour if he'd like to exercise his very selective memory. We could start with Darren Hughes for example, a Minister outside Cabinet, who so lost the plot that a man was then seen running down the road without any clothes on to escape a homosexual assault from Hughes. One or two physical assaults from Trevor Mallard. Then there was the double dealing and lies surrounding millionaire Owen Glenn who now backs National as a result. I'm sure there's a number more which people can mention...so I don't have to....
Clean your act up DayTr, Dirty Politics has been tried already and the voters voted against it so that Labour went backwards.

You forgot the big one MVT,a MP (Minister outside Cabinet?) sentenced to a lengthy prison sentence for " threatening the foundations of democracy and justice" according to the Judge. Surprisingly, Daytr forgot to mention this, despite it being a fairly recent event.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2934748/Taito-Phillip-Field-jailed-for-six-years

I will await the full story on McCully´s actions before jumping to conclusions. I don´t like what I´ve seen so far. Sadly not the only mess left by Labour.

Daytr
31-05-2015, 09:51 PM
I didn't forget anything & MVT & others are so one eyed they think that what National MPs, have done is ok, as Labor has done similar.
What makes me laugh is everything appears to be so left or right & it doesn't seem to matter to many of you if its actually right or wrong.
Better to blame someone else as long as Labour don't get a look in!
Quite ridiculous if you ask me.
I don't care if they are left or right, if they have integrity & good policy then let it be congratulated & if they break the law or outright lie then they have to go.

Iceman, are you really suggesting McCully's actions were anything to do with Labour? If so what?
McCully has already made up a cock & bull story to blame Labour that has been proven false.
Anyone who is Labour or National, it doesn't matter, they don't deserve to hold public office if they flout the law.
I agree though we need to know more. Like was this a criminal offense & should charges be laid?
Was the PM aware of what looks like a bribe of a Saudi Official & did he sanction it and should also be investigated.
If this was a corporate offering bribes of this magnitude to government officials there would be a criminal investigation.

iceman
01-06-2015, 07:24 AM
I didn't forget anything & MVT & others are so one eyed they think that what National MPs, have done is ok, as Labor has done similar.
What makes me laugh is everything appears to be so left or right & it doesn't seem to matter to many of you if its actually right or wrong.
Better to blame someone else as long as Labour don't get a look in!
Quite ridiculous if you ask me.
I don't care if they are left or right, if they have integrity & good policy then let it be congratulated & if they break the law or outright lie then they have to go.

Iceman, are you really suggesting McCully's actions were anything to do with Labour? If so what?
McCully has already made up a cock & bull story to blame Labour that has been proven false.
Anyone who is Labour or National, it doesn't matter, they don't deserve to hold public office if they flout the law.
I agree though we need to know more. Like was this a criminal offense & should charges be laid?
Was the PM aware of what looks like a bribe of a Saudi Official & did he sanction it and should also be investigated.
If this was a corporate offering bribes of this magnitude to government officials there would be a criminal investigation.

Like I said Daytr, I would like all the facts before I try to make up my mind. Those facts includes what if any promises or undertakings were made by this Government or the last to this gentleman, before he invested tens of millions of $ in NZ.
My news service where I am at present is rather unreliable so I am sure I am not getting all the info that has been in the media.

Loved you saying others are one eyed :ohmy: Classic.

Sgt Pepper
01-06-2015, 09:24 AM
The reason it was a scandal was that a left wing reporter deliberately placed a tape recording device to overhear a private conversation. He should have served some prison time for that. There is no scandal in two private individuals meeting in a café for what should be a private conversation.

Then there was paintergate where Helen Clark signed a painting she had not painted and then connived in selling it off as her work. Then there was the incident where she urged her driver to deliberately break the speed restrictions by miles to get where she wanted to go. Moral corruption in the Labour Party has a long history, right back at least to Warren Freer in the 1957-60 Labour Government. All the Labour MPs had to dig heavily into their own pockets to try to save him from bankruptcy while he fled to Communist China for some time to avoid due process.

major
tell me more about Warren Freer. I'm interested because I read a book he wrote a couple of years ago. I think he passed away, lived to well in his 90s

craic
01-06-2015, 09:38 AM
Daytr.We live in a democracy. If you think a crime has been committed, report it to the police. Put it in writing - for some reason written complaints attract a lot more attention than the spoken word.
If you think that there is major fraud and all the things you have listed, put your concerns or allegations in writing and send to the relevant authority - heaven knows,we have enough of them here.
If all else fails, enrol to vote and cast your vote for whomsoever YOU would like to see running the country.
If you wake up the next morning on the losing side, tough, you were probably wrong and more people disagree with you than you think.
If you are still driven to convert others to your thinking, become a missionary

elZorro
01-06-2015, 01:40 PM
Like Sgt Pepper, I think that a worsening economy overseas, that impacts NZ, could be another nail in the coffin of National, come 2017.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/economy/news/article.cfm?c_id=34&objectid=11456951&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+1+Ju ne+2015

It's hard to cheer yourself up by cutting firewood, when you have a strong suspicion that the National Govt could have done a great deal more for NZ as a whole, in the last seven years.

Daytr
01-06-2015, 03:59 PM
Craic, really, a democracy. And here I was thinking I was living in China, well that's where this sort of behavior, outside of FIFA, is common place.
Trying to convert people to what? Having integrity?
And really I can vote for whoever I choose, who knew!
Thanks for pointing that out.
If you would rather this was just a cosy up for your right wing buddies, sorry for crashing the party, however we are all entitled to our opinion because as you rightly point out we are in a democracy, although Key has done his outmost to impinge on all NZers civil liberties.


Daytr.We live in a democracy. If you think a crime has been committed, report it to the police. Put it in writing - for some reason written complaints attract a lot more attention than the spoken word.
If you think that there is major fraud and all the things you have listed, put your concerns or allegations in writing and send to the relevant authority - heaven knows,we have enough of them here.
If all else fails, enrol to vote and cast your vote for whomsoever YOU would like to see running the country.
If you wake up the next morning on the losing side, tough, you were probably wrong and more people disagree with you than you think.
If you are still driven to convert others to your thinking, become a missionary

craic
01-06-2015, 08:57 PM
You are welcome to crash the party and I am not aware of any right-wing buddies. I never ask my friends who they vote for. some are avid Labour supporters and I buy them a drink when they get depressed.

Daytr
01-06-2015, 10:38 PM
Haha Labour again. I'm starting to think National supporters have a fixation with Labour.
Virtually every post from National supporters say something a long the line of Labour would only do worse, or its Labour's fault even though they haven't been in power for over two terms.
I think Labour are weak kneed & are floundering for direction.
However I would rather have little (pardon the pun) direction than going in the wrong one.
National's new form of privatisation, privatising mental health. Watch now for the re-emergence of asylums.
Bulk warehousing of patients. Its what's on offer for people with disabilities (in the form of group homes) since National has withdrawn funding after the last election.
When will it end? Will the Government actually run anything or will it all be corporatized?
This is going down the same path as the US in regards health & social services.
Private enterprise is loving this government as its a cash cow.
Big corporates run America & the government is indebted to the eyeballs whilst corporates make billions & then offshore their tax. This is a great model to follow obviously, if all you care about is greed.
Fantastic!

elZorro
02-06-2015, 05:50 AM
Sounds about right, Daytr. Although you shouldn't underestimate Labour. Colin James has this article about the Greens.

http://www.colinjames.co.nz/a-next-generation-leader-focused-long-term/

Woolly sheep deal in the Herald editorial. Yet another coverup by National.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11458047&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Tuesday+2+J une+2015

Major von Tempsky
02-06-2015, 02:36 PM
Sgt Pepper, a bit more about Warren Freer since you are interested. He became a Labour MP at the then tender age of 27, having been a reporter until then. He was very keen on then Communist China. He was rather careless with his money as he became technically bankrupt and fled to China to avoid due process in NZ. As Labour only had a majority of 2 it was essential that Freer came back, so amidst much grumbling the Labour MPs and some members stumped up enough money to save him and of course Labour went out in 1960 while Kiwi Keith Holyoake went on to win 4 terms. When Labour came back in in 1972 Norman Kirk made him Minister of Trade and Industries where he was noted for his impression of King Canute, trying to hold rising prices back. He had a scheme, MRP - maximum retail price which people pronounced MURP in a deep voice and the MRP was popularly thought to stand for Minister of Rising Prices and naturally the MRP became the minimum retail price and not enough bureaucrats could be found to administer its infinite bureaucratic demands. After Labour went out he slipped steadily down the pecking order, made a few ineffectual press releases but soon gave that up. After he retired from Parliament he was first involved in an Immigration "Consultancy" and had a piece of land near Auckland, Kaipara Harbour I think it was, which in association with China he tried to develop into shrimp farms. There was then a scandal when it was discovered it was staffed by Chinese peasants living in absolutely appalling conditions like the slave fishermen the fishing consortiums have employed. After that he became even more secretive and conspiracy ridden and quietly slipped away to Queensland. He was an author of the Homosexual Law Reform Act (not sure if I have the name right) but later desperately sought to avoid being lauded and glorified by NZ's GLBT movement. I think the only trace of him is the football field in his old Auckland electorate named after him. My sister who once worked in Parliament Buildings told me he was part of a small group of MPs who delved into the restricted Parliamentary Library pornography collection with great avidity. There - that enough for you?

elZorro
02-06-2015, 06:13 PM
You forgot to mention that he was the MP for Mt Albert for 34 years, and was succeeded by Helen Clark. If he offended the electorate at all, it wasn't enough to have him voted out, and they had plenty of chances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Freer

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/131664/former-cabinet-minister-warren-freer-dies

winner69
02-06-2015, 06:27 PM
Like Sgt Pepper, I think that a worsening economy overseas, that impacts NZ, could be another nail in the coffin of National, come 2017.





EZ, the more I read your posts the more I am convinced that you think the only way Labour will win in 2017 is if National lose. That's not really winning is it.

I'm beginning to think that Labour doesn't have any relevance at the moment. It has lost its way - what does it stand for EZ. If the electorate wants a change (ie pissed off with National) why would they turn en masse to Labour. If they want change I see the likes of Green or NZ First getting just as many disenchanted voters as Labour. Where would that leave Labour?

Only 27 or so months to go EZ and as an interested observer I haven't heard that Labour narrative yet,

neopoleII
02-06-2015, 06:32 PM
""You forgot to mention that he was the MP for Mt Albert for 34 years""

to be fair.... from 1947 to 1981 the availability of unbiased media to the public was rather hampered,
which means that many things happened that our citizens didnt hear or know especially at electorate level.
im sure there were many discretions from many public figures in our history from all different walks of politics.
thank god we live in a modern world with many different avenues for information collection.
end result will be more honest government and leadership....... we hope.

winner69
02-06-2015, 06:35 PM
I see iPredict has National PM after next election at 62%, Labour PM at 37%

elZorro
02-06-2015, 07:50 PM
I see iPredict has National PM after next election at 62%, Labour PM at 37%

So there's not much in it W69, especially if there are only about four people bothering to place bets (er, bids), at this time of the election cycle.

As to Labour's narrative, well what is National's? Steady as she goes? They don't have one exciting policy, and that has to be a deliberate intention.

elZorro
03-06-2015, 06:42 AM
Tracey Watkins would like to dig deeper into the Saudi deal.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/69048919/time-for-some-sunlight-over-saudi-sheep-deal?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Wednesday+3 +June+2015

Tally's have created over 6,000 jobs in the food processing industry, but have a disturbing staff injury and conditions record, according to union spokespeople.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/we-should-not-calling-him-sir-businessman-s-knighthood-questioned-6328823?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Wednesday+3 +June+2015

Daytr
03-06-2015, 07:22 AM
It looks like a pay off to me to gain influence which would otherwise be described as a bribe.
So McCully has said it was to avoid litigation, Key has said it was to remove a road block for the FTA.
Well at least Key has admitted full knowledge & now if proven a bribe should face the consequences.
Interesting Key's speech today in regards Seb Blatter's resignation & he is correct, but he may also regret saying it.

Major von Tempsky
03-06-2015, 02:07 PM
So in EZ's estimation all change in the economy and society has to come the Government (spelt with a big G)? Staggering. He says there is nothing happening. There are technological changes every day, most of them pouring in from overseas private sectors. There changes in society such as charter schools.

I have a completely different viewpoint from him, that government governs best which governs least. Make room for individual and family aspirations and initiatives; DON'T tax it to death and strangle it with red tape.
And there are rather more voters who agree with me than agree with him.

westerly
03-06-2015, 05:36 PM
.

I have a completely different viewpoint from him, that government governs best which governs least. Make room for individual and family aspirations and initiatives; DON'T tax it to death and strangle it with red tape.
And there are rather more voters who agree with me than agree with him.

But ACT only got 1% in the latest poll?

westerly

Daytr
03-06-2015, 05:48 PM
Very good point Westerly.
With National we aren't necessarily getting less government we are just getting short termism and poor governance.
In fact with the GCSB spying on everyone you could say we have more government.
Less regulation can be a good thing in certain areas, but not necessarily less scrutiny.
I think if you have good policy in the first place then you have less need for red tape as there are certain things you just can or cannot do & if you now that up front you wont bother challenging & costing money with applications and court hearings etc.

elZorro
03-06-2015, 06:06 PM
Thanks for that guys, I was having a look at the leaked Labour review document. I'm happy to see this, it was going to be top secret and I haven't seen it before, but there are contained in it some interesting facts that I'd already ascertained. Labour is in the poorhouse, major issue. Unions don't fund Labour much at all. SMEs are to be won over by Labour, also fine with me. Clearer links with parties like the Greens.

http://yournz.org/2015/06/03/labour-review-leaked/

Sgt Pepper
04-06-2015, 12:51 AM
So in EZ's estimation all change in the economy and society has to come the Government (spelt with a big G)? Staggering. He says there is nothing happening. There are technological changes every day, most of them pouring in from overseas private sectors. There changes in society such as charter schools.

I have a completely different viewpoint from him, that government governs best which governs least. Make room for individual and family aspirations and initiatives; DON'T tax it to death and strangle it with red tape.
And there are rather more voters who agree with me than agree with him.

Major

The INTERNET
GPS systems
Microchips
Vaccines
Barcodes

All these essential inventions that we all benefit from, were started with Governmemt funding . Seems at variance with the assertion that "all private good" "all government bad". do you not think?

elZorro
04-06-2015, 06:48 AM
Major

The INTERNET
GPS systems
Microchips
Vaccines
Barcodes

All these essential inventions that we all benefit from, were started with Governmemt funding . Seems at variance with the assertion that "all private good" "all government bad". do you not think?

Very good point, Sgt Pepper. I've never said that Government and the SOE area is the place all innovation stems from, but there is always the potential, and Government also needs to encourage the private sector in certain directions, for the good of everybody.

Poor old Bill - as an elderly former accountant Ken Chandler from Hamilton so eloquently put it in his Letter to the Editor of the Waikato Times today:


Bill English must be dreaming if he thinks or talks of further tax cuts before the next election. He must also envy the sound financial management of the previous government.



More devastation on the way for businesses in the provinces. Commercial vehicle sales already on the way back down.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/dairy-prices-continue-slide-6329494?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+4+ June+2015

craic
04-06-2015, 07:45 AM
We are currently experiencing a perfect example of Government innovative funding. $30,000 for a bloody door in in parliment that will seperate Labour and National offices in a corridor. We are told that the door must be kauri and must have cast brass hinges because it is a heritage building ,hence the high cost. Why not a temporary security door, built off the premised for under $2,000 that can easily be removed when the balance of power alters and there are more/less National/Labour MPs in the corridor. $30,000 would be enough to start two young families in their own home - in the provinces where most New Zealanders live.

Daytr
04-06-2015, 08:45 AM
Craic, why do you think the security door needs installing in the first place?

winner69
04-06-2015, 08:54 AM
We are currently experiencing a perfect example of Government innovative funding. $30,000 for a bloody door in in parliment that will seperate Labour and National offices in a corridor. We are told that the door must be kauri and must have cast brass hinges because it is a heritage building ,hence the high cost. Why not a temporary security door, built off the premised for under $2,000 that can easily be removed when the balance of power alters and there are more/less National/Labour MPs in the corridor. $30,000 would be enough to start two young families in their own home - in the provinces where most New Zealanders live.

And that's a might impressive piece of stone outside mbie hq - all $70.000 worth

I suggested they contact this guy called craic who could find. Decent piece of timber on his farm and some clever things with his chainsaw and put mbie hq label n it ....totally fit for purpose ....and he would do it for his country but would mind a couple bottles of bourbon and a crate of Tui

Major von Tempsky
04-06-2015, 09:21 AM
Anyone read the media report by the failed Kiwi/British Labour MP Brian Gould?
Point 1, why didn't they get someone who won 3 British elections easily for Labour i.e. Tony Blair to do the report rather than Gould who is on the left wing of the Brit Labour Party?
Point 2 - most of Gould's comments are specious and would do nothing to win the next election for NZ Labour.
e.g. disunity was a problem. Yeah, but the NZ voters didn't vote Nat because of Labour disunity they voted Nat because of attractive Nat policies and scary left wing Labour policies and attractive Nat candidates and leadership i.e. John Key. Having more money would not have solved that problem. Anyway it's previously been pointed out that the only NZ Labour President in recent years prepared to get his hands dirty with knocking, calling. writing to get financial support has been Mike Williams. The others have been airy fairy Labour academics who have always believed somebody else does the work.
It was a nice touch, given the Peter Dunne/Andrea Vance leaks, that this Gould report was only released because someone "not in the Labour caucus" had already leaked it to the media!

elZorro
04-06-2015, 11:53 AM
Anyone read the media report by the failed Kiwi/British Labour MP Brian Gould?
Point 1, why didn't they get someone who won 3 British elections easily for Labour i.e. Tony Blair to do the report rather than Gould who is on the left wing of the Brit Labour Party?
Point 2 - most of Gould's comments are specious and would do nothing to win the next election for NZ Labour.
e.g. disunity was a problem. Yeah, but the NZ voters didn't vote Nat because of Labour disunity they voted Nat because of attractive Nat policies and scary left wing Labour policies and attractive Nat candidates and leadership i.e. John Key. Having more money would not have solved that problem. Anyway it's previously been pointed out that the only NZ Labour President in recent years prepared to get his hands dirty with knocking, calling. writing to get financial support has been Mike Williams. The others have been airy fairy Labour academics who have always believed somebody else does the work.
It was a nice touch, given the Peter Dunne/Andrea Vance leaks, that this Gould report was only released because someone "not in the Labour caucus" had already leaked it to the media!

MVT, (More Vacuous Text?), I have to advise you that Bryan Gould was part of a strong review team, he was the VC of Waikato University and is therefore likely to be reasonably bright. Campaign spending does have a lot to do with the party votes results achieved by each party, and if you chose to go back over the last few election results with that in mind, I think you'd have to agree with Bryan Gould and I on that one. But I doubt you'll spend the time to do that, it would upset your incorrect point of view.

winner69
05-06-2015, 01:06 PM
No EZ, I did not write this

But maybe a bit soon to use the word oblivion, maybe after the next election when the Greens get more votes.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11460446

fungus pudding
05-06-2015, 01:45 PM
No EZ, I did not write this

But maybe a bit soon to use the word oblivion, maybe after the next election when the Greens get more votes.



Why would the Greens get more votes? Rustle Norman will be a hard act to follow, and until they dump the silly co-leader bit they will not improve their vote. They need one real leader. I don't think they look like a happy lot at all at present.

elZorro
05-06-2015, 05:03 PM
No EZ, I did not write this

But maybe a bit soon to use the word oblivion, maybe after the next election when the Greens get more votes.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11460446

I can't figure you out, W69, are you a Green or NZF voter maybe? As long as it's not National/Act, it's fine by me.. but then since you have a top class political understanding, you'd be unlikely to vote for Key's mob.

John Armstrong was fairly positive about Labour earlier last month.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/john-armstrong-on-politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502865&objectid=11445665

elZorro
05-06-2015, 05:37 PM
Spotted this item about R&D grants today. It's yet another situation where taxpayer money has been handed over to the wrong sort of company. Yes, they might have passed the rules, but they must be stupid rules.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1506/S00195/nz-govt-gives-up-chasing-nextwindow-rd-grants.htm

"Smart" are a listed company overseas (Canadian), they had already bought out the existing owners of NextWindow for $82mill (some of whom were NZers), so presumably they don't need helping out any further. Once they had the funds, why was there not a clawback on the company expending most of those funds in NZ, and trading for at least several years later, here? They didn't pull down all the funds thankfully, they could have taken another few million from NZ taxpayers.

Just think how many SMEs could have done good initial work with even $100,000 each? About 40 NZ firms, instead of one Canadian listed firm that was soon to see their new acquisition go belly-up.

winner69
06-06-2015, 09:05 AM
EZ, Labour not having a good week,

A picture says a thousand words

Only 27 months to go

Cartoon by Moreu

winner69
06-06-2015, 09:10 AM
Have to agree with Body in The Herald as well.

Scandalous and dreadful behaviour from the Government ...... but somehow its OK. Good management of PR or just punters happy with government as they can do no wrong - perception equals reality

winner69
06-06-2015, 09:15 AM
While on cartoons - EZ, the ugly side of neoliberal policies eh

elZorro
06-06-2015, 10:16 AM
Cheers, W69, I hadn't seen those. They are all good. The first one, though, is incorrect about the funding thing being superficial. That's real (as you and I know), and it leads on to the middle cartoon, National's financial head start lets them play with the media. Last one, that is the sad one, you have to hope that this is the step too far for NZ voters. They have to step over the line sometime.

BTW, a bit of advertising spend would soon show NZ what Labour's identity looks like, but they just don't have the funds at the moment.

winner69
06-06-2015, 10:26 AM
. Last one, that is the sad one, you have to hope that this is the step too far for NZ voters. They have to step over the line sometime.

BTW, a bit of advertising spend would soon show NZ what Labour's identity looks like, but they just don't have the funds at the moment.

I thought so as well as very sad

Maybe a story/theme that Labour should turn t their advantage ... be brave

winner69
06-06-2015, 10:43 AM
EZ, that cartoon of Sharon's came from an idea of Bruce Buckman.

Has many thoughts like you, you know of him

winner69
06-06-2015, 12:38 PM
EZ, Labour needs to harness the passion of the Eaqubs or even take them on board somehow. They have the same sort of views re housing.

The 50% of NZs over 15 who rent could become a powerful group to have on your side. They might eventually (if not now) want a voice. If Labour not that voice will be someone else - maybe a new radical centrist party or the one who takes that positioning

http://www.interest.co.nz/business/75829/nziers-shamubeel-eaqub-calls-cultural-u-turn-wake-our-housing-crisis-sowing-seeds#comment-814730

elZorro
06-06-2015, 12:52 PM
EZ, that cartoon of Sharon's came from an idea of Bruce Buckman.

Has many thoughts like you, you know of him

W69, I didn't know that Murdoch, the cartoonist, is a woman. Article about her, here.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/capital-life/10059201/Catty-cartoonist-alone-in-field

She's drawn some great cartoons picking National apart, and like Bruce Buckman (no, I don't know him either), they both have fairly leftie views. There is maybe something there about harnessing more writers, cartoonists, musicians in Labour's campaigns.

winner69
06-06-2015, 12:56 PM
Apparently Eaqubs were on TV earlier.

I support anybody who uses words like "segregation" "landed gentry" "housing apartheid" when talking about housing inequality

winner69
06-06-2015, 01:10 PM
W69, I didn't know that Murdoch, the cartoonist, is a woman. Article about her, here.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/capital-life/10059201/Catty-cartoonist-alone-in-field

She's drawn some great cartoons picking National apart, and like Bruce Buckman (no, I don't know him either), they both have fairly leftie views. There is maybe something there about harnessing more writers, cartoonists, musicians in Labour's campaigns.

One way of getting messages across ......quick idea how about a weekly Sharon cartoon with this weeks message in the papers and on billboards (a bit like Tui ones) an widely circulated on twitter etc. I'd retweet it.

Probably one way of talking to the lost million

winner69
06-06-2015, 02:36 PM
EZ, sound your mates out on the need to seduce potential voters to get them to hear your message

http://www.clickhole.com/video/relax-beautiful-woman-you-see-thumbnail-will-show--2365

elZorro
06-06-2015, 03:01 PM
EZ, sound your mates out on the need to seduce potential voters to get them to hear your message

http://www.clickhole.com/video/relax-beautiful-woman-you-see-thumbnail-will-show--2365

Yes, very good, I get what you mean. Jacinda Adern could do that maybe?

Bill English didn't run interference on the Kiwisaver kickstart cancellation. An unpopular budget outcome.

http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/ditching-kiwisaver-kickstart-gets-thumbs-down-in-poll-6332947?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+8+Ju ne+2015

More on Generation Rent: Equabs book.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/69098915/eaqubs-generation-rent-deserves-a-hearing?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+8+Ju ne+2015

Rental situations in some of Auckland's houses.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11461054

elZorro
08-06-2015, 09:18 PM
I've been thinking about Rod Oram's article in the SST yesterday. This is bad news for the tax take in the next year or two, Bill.

http://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/sunday-star-times/20150607/282488592345541/TextView

An article of a couple of months ago shows that landlords on average have been slow to use the subsidised scheme to insulate houses.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1504/S00156/landlords-not-cashing-in-on-insulation-schemes.htm

On TV this morning, there's an item about landlords wanting more govt help to insulate their own housing stock, or presumably they won't do it. Of course, if they were living in those houses, they'd soon get it sorted if they could afford it, and most of them can. There are plenty of good landlords out there, but why do some landlords expect special treatment, especially when the big game plan happens at the end, a tax free capital gain on eventual sale? It's time this whole rental industry paid its own way and contributed to the economy of NZ as a whole, not just pandering to a privileged minority.

As it is, they can be subsidised by up to 90% of the costs in special circumstances. (http://smartenergysolutions.co.nz/page/insulation-products-installation-funding-for-landlords)

IRD awards their massive coding contract to a USA firm, although some NZers will be employed. NZ firms effectively excluded from tendering.

http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/ird-billion-dollar-contract-missed-opportunity-6333973?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Tuesday+9+J une+2015

BlackPeter
09-06-2015, 08:31 AM
Pretty appalling story on stuff: 1.34 billion dollars going every year into corporate welfare, and the lion's share of that (18%) goes to Kiwirail for ... doing nothing (well, apparently for keeping their network running).

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/69211950/Corporate-welfare-costs-every-New-Zealand-household-752-report?cid=edm:stuff:dailyheadlines

Now - I guess at face value the culprit here is National, since they are currently controlling the old boys clubs who are "picking the winners". Interesting question is, what would happen if the Left takes over? EZ, daytr and winner - what would be your party's strategy in case they would get a more dominant position at the trough? What would Labour / Green (and potentially NZ First) do different? Just favour different pigs to feed - or clean up the pigsty?

Sgt Pepper
09-06-2015, 08:43 AM
Pretty appalling story on stuff: 1.34 billion dollars going every year into corporate welfare, and the lion's share of that (18%) goes to Kiwirail for ... doing nothing (well, apparently for keeping their network running).

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/69211950/Corporate-welfare-costs-every-New-Zealand-household-752-report?cid=edm:stuff:dailyheadlines

Now - I guess at face value the culprit here is National, since they are currently controlling the old boys clubs who are "picking the winners". Interesting question is, what would happen if the Left takes over? EZ, daytr and winner - what would be your party's strategy in case they would get a more dominant position at the trough? What would Labour / Green (and potentially NZ First) do different? Just favour different pigs to feed - or clean up the pigsty?

BP
one aspect of this is the type of government we have in power. make no mistake, this National Government has more in common with the Muldoon regime than any other. The principle objective , above all others is to remain in power. If that means misdirecting increasing amounts of taxpayers money so be it. If I was a large donor to the National party I would be increasingly questioning whether I am getting value for money, as I am certain many of the more thoughtful and intelligent ones are.

blackcap
09-06-2015, 08:53 AM
Pretty appalling story on stuff: 1.34 billion dollars going every year into corporate welfare, and the lion's share of that (18%) goes to Kiwirail for ... doing nothing (well, apparently for keeping their network running).

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/69211950/Corporate-welfare-costs-every-New-Zealand-household-752-report?cid=edm:stuff:dailyheadlines



That is appalling. I think Kiwi Rail needs to fall over and if a competitor cannot be found to replace them so be it. Subsidising to that tune is immoral.

Daytr
09-06-2015, 10:19 AM
Kiwi Rail is up against it in regards the huge amount of funding & support that goes toward transport companies in NZ. Rail has been in neglect for decades & if anything in my view there should be more investment in rail rather than the 10s of billions being spent on roads. Obviously both require funding, but at the moment its far too one sided imo. Getting more logging trucks off the road in regional NZ as an example, would not only help the efficiency of our transport routes it would also reduce substantially the amount we spend on maintenance. Living in Northland, if wanting to drive south to Auckland etc you basically have to allow an additional 30-60 mins for either road works which is usually maintenance or being stuck behind trucks. The hidden cost to all travelers be them business or recreational is never taken into account.

In regards other grants from National, one in particular comes to mind, where National offered TTR $25M of R&D for their iron ore seabed mining proposal, something that never made it through the EPA and was for all intensive purposes an Australian/Chinese company that would have added little value to NZ in regards jobs or revenue. This was a company that had access to $1Bln in funding!

EZ is on the money these sort of grants should either be for start ups or small business that has potential to be something more and add value to the domestic economy & imo also be targeting sustainable businesses & or that add a social or environmental value to the country. The solar industry is one I have highlighted on many occasions but similar to the transport companies, the power companies are Government favoured & protected. How much road tax funding could be used to get rail routes re introduced for instance or would also help with Auckland's ridiculous traffic situation.

BP, I would suggest Labour & the Greens have aspirations/policy that are far more aligned to this approach & NZF would be somewhere in the middle with an emphasis on added value & the likes of increase use of rail.

winner69
09-06-2015, 02:51 PM
EZ, this is so true
http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/opinion/69177332/what-went-wrong-for-labour

Do you do twitter things EZ? You would be appalled what your party members and faithful get up to on twitter. Quite amusing

westerly
09-06-2015, 07:12 PM
EZ, this is so true
http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/opinion/69177332/what-went-wrong-for-labour

Do you do twitter things EZ? You would be appalled what your party members and faithful get up to on twitter. Quite amusing

Interesting how the right leaning columnists are full of advice for the embattled Labour party.

westerly

elZorro
09-06-2015, 07:49 PM
EZ, this is so true
http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/opinion/69177332/what-went-wrong-for-labour

Do you do twitter things EZ? You would be appalled what your party members and faithful get up to on twitter. Quite amusing

No I don't tweet, W69, it does seem to be a big waste of time. I have enough trouble having a go on this forum.. Maybe I'm too verbose for the shorter messages anyway. I also get time to check the text and remove stupid or incorrect stuff before it goes out. Usually. I try to be like a modern day Barry Crump - however much I might swear in real life, it'll never be in print.

That Lehir guy is very right-wing. He's just stirring mate.

winner69
09-06-2015, 08:04 PM
No I don't tweet, W69, it does seem to be a big waste of time. I have enough trouble having a go on this forum.. Maybe I'm too verbose for the shorter messages anyway. I also get time to check the text and remove stupid or incorrect stuff before it goes out. Usually. I try to be like a modern day Barry Crump - however much I might swear in real life, it'll never be in print.

That Lehir guy is very right-wing. He's just stirring mate.

The 'right wing' press been busy lately. - telling labour what to do and telling us all about Shaw.

Rodney Hide's column on Shaw was a laugh.

Doesn't Labour have any good guys in the papers.

elZorro
10-06-2015, 06:01 AM
The 'right wing' press been busy lately. - telling labour what to do and telling us all about Shaw.

Rodney Hide's column on Shaw was a laugh.

Doesn't Labour have any good guys in the papers.

I agree W69, the right-wing press seem a lot more organised, the sheeple are being told what to think, while lefties are not as proactive.

Manufacturing in many areas is down this quarter, not looking too good.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/69223601/manufacturing-sales-values-tumble-on-slump-in-dairy-and-oil

craic
10-06-2015, 07:18 AM
Labour man in Napier fails on two out of three. Principal election promises were to do all in his power restore the Napier, Gisborne rail link. This was dead in the water by the time he decided to use it but he insisted. "Say no to amalgamation" was the other main platform but now it seems that we will amalgamate and subsidise Hastings and every other village around the place that has a service station and a policeman. I can't remember what his third promise was, but then, he probably can"t remember either.

Sgt Pepper
10-06-2015, 09:27 AM
Labour man in Napier fails on two out of three. Principal election promises were to do all in his power restore the Napier, Gisborne rail link. This was dead in the water by the time he decided to use it but he insisted. "Say no to amalgamation" was the other main platform but now it seems that we will amalgamate and subsidise Hastings and every other village around the place that has a service station and a policeman. I can't remember what his third promise was, but then, he probably can"t remember either.

Hmm Craic
I well recall a certain prominent politician saying " we will not increase GST".

Daytr
10-06-2015, 12:00 PM
Rodney Hide is an idiot imo, I didn't find it amusing, just a bunch of cheap shots with very little to back them up & trying to tar a leftie leader before he has time to prove himself either good or bad. I'm sure they will have a follow up piece in the NZH from Bob Jones as well.
National isn't having a particularly good time in the press, in fact its hard to remember when there wasn't some sort of stench or scandal surrounding one of their MPs or PM. Obviously sheepgate still has a more to run, but hey you aren't supposed to start a
2nd series before finishing the first, but here we have it bullgate ! A good blending might be bullsh..gate as there is plenty flying about.
Apparently everything naughty, illegal or just poor policy is somehow Labour's fault. No wonder Key likes pulling ponytails, he's still in the playground. "Wasn't me" !
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11462499

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11460564

Funny how Kohn Key could cut short his Asian tour to campaign in Northland in a last minute attempt to stave off an embarrassing defeat, however McCully isn't brought back to NZ to face the music. It seems offering a bribe is ok, as long as you aren't the one receiving. Perhaps one of us should try that with the police when you next get pulled over for a traffic offence & see if its seen the same way.... I think not.


The 'right wing' press been busy lately. - telling labour what to do and telling us all about Shaw.

Rodney Hide's column on Shaw was a laugh.

Doesn't Labour have any good guys in the papers.

craic
10-06-2015, 12:48 PM
I'm not sure what gst has to do with The Napier electorate. I am personally in favour of increased GST as a fairer means of gathering tax but as far as our local labour lad is concerned, He will have real difficulty next time now that Garth McVicar will not be there to to take out 7000 votes and guarantee his passage. Nor will he have the "save the rail link" voters and it's highly unlikely that the anti-amalgamation people will help either as the Hasting voters in the referendum are more than keen to get rid of their present administration. As to elZorros sheeples, I assume that he is referring to the 75% or so of Kiwis who did not vote labour in the last election and are therefore somewhat less intelligent than his lot. That is a sad comment on one who appears to be a leading odvocate of the left.

craic
10-06-2015, 12:55 PM
Ah so! Our Mr Nash has again posted a full page add that is mostly filled with a full length photo of himself. But the old lost causes are gone. In their place is a new issue, the right to voluntary euthenasia. He seems at sixes and sevens with the idea but supportive if a bill is introduced. Probably smart enough to know that this topic can cost as many votes as it gains?

Sgt Pepper
10-06-2015, 01:13 PM
I'm not sure what gst has to do with The Napier electorate. I am personally in favour of increased GST as a fairer means of gathering tax but as far as our local labour lad is concerned, He will have real difficulty next time now that Garth McVicar will not be there to to take out 7000 votes and guarantee his passage. Nor will he have the "save the rail link" voters and it's highly unlikely that the anti-amalgamation people will help either as the Hasting voters in the referendum are more than keen to get rid of their present administration. As to elZorros sheeples, I assume that he is referring to the 75% or so of Kiwis who did not vote labour in the last election and are therefore somewhat less intelligent than his lot. That is a sad comment on one who appears to be a leading odvocate of the left.

Craic
Increasing GST as a fairer means of raising revenue is a perfectly legitimate economic view. My observation is that John Key intentionally lied about his intention to raise GST. Even the most staunch of my National supporters friends were astonished by his duplicity.

Daytr
10-06-2015, 02:30 PM
I pity Hawkes Bay going down the path of amalgamation. Amalgamation has been a National lead agenda & unfortunately the vulnerable fall for it.
Not sure about subsidizing every little community, I would suggest the opposite would be true i.e. small towns will get neglected. At least in this amalgamation there are a number of major centers to spread the wealth & political sway with Napier, Hastings, although basically one city these days, & then Gisborne. With Northland it would have been a disaster with half the population residing in Whangarei. Amalgamation I would thought makes sense for large cities, however Len Brown is an obvious example with all that is wrong with one person having that kind of power.

winner69
10-06-2015, 02:42 PM
EZ, this cartoon says it all

Legislation delayed / deferred. Nobody knows what the changes are. No doubt big business lobby got involved. Just shows National policy is really all bout profits before anything else.

We need that revolution - will Labour lead it?

Daytr
10-06-2015, 03:13 PM
Yeah its amasing what they can fast track when they want to, but when its actually about workers rights or even safety they drag the chain. One worker a week is killed in NZ, that is a very poor statistic imo. National is living up to its reputation of screwing workers. Zero hour contracts, tea breaks etc.
Perhaps if these politicians actually worked with their hands or physically or laborious work they may have more empathy.

craic
10-06-2015, 04:23 PM
In my time as a Timber Inspector for forestry, I came within an inch of being killed or maimed on two or three occasions. It wasn't anyones fault and virtually impossible to avoid. Various industries have a bad history but if you look at that history, there was a time, within a generation or two, where loss of life and injury was an everyday occurrence and gained little attention. And cutting up trees with chainsaws reminds me that every time I think that I have made every mistake in the book and learned from it, something else happens. No one with half a brain would go down a coalmine in this earthquake ridden land. Nor would anyone go miles out into the Pacific to fish in a thirty or forty-foot boat knowing the history of that ocean but they do. Tea breaks or higher pay will not really affect anything.

blackcap
10-06-2015, 05:00 PM
In my time as a Timber Inspector for forestry, I came within an inch of being killed or maimed on two or three occasions. It wasn't anyones fault and virtually impossible to avoid. Various industries have a bad history but if you look at that history, there was a time, within a generation or two, where loss of life and injury was an everyday occurrence and gained little attention. And cutting up trees with chainsaws reminds me that every time I think that I have made every mistake in the book and learned from it, something else happens. No one with half a brain would go down a coalmine in this earthquake ridden land. Nor would anyone go miles out into the Pacific to fish in a thirty or forty-foot boat knowing the history of that ocean but they do. Tea breaks or higher pay will not really affect anything.

Im with you on this one Craic. Accidents at work are bound to happen, regardless of all the Work and Safety rubbish they prescribe us. I was a few years ago felling trees on a mates farm and nearly had a tree fall on me. I had done nothing wrong, had not ignored any safety prescriptions. It just happens. Driving a car kills about 400 a year in NZ and I do not see them calling for a ban on driving.

westerly
10-06-2015, 06:11 PM
Im with you on this one Craic. Accidents at work are bound to happen, regardless of all the Work and Safety rubbish they prescribe us. I was a few years ago felling trees on a mates farm and nearly had a tree fall on me. I had done nothing wrong, had not ignored any safety prescriptions. It just happens. Driving a car kills about 400 a year in NZ and I do not see them calling for a ban on driving.

In 1985 there were 747 road deaths. Last year 297 It just happens ?

westerly

elZorro
10-06-2015, 08:16 PM
I'm not sure what gst has to do with The Napier electorate. I am personally in favour of increased GST as a fairer means of gathering tax but as far as our local labour lad is concerned, He will have real difficulty next time now that Garth McVicar will not be there to to take out 7000 votes and guarantee his passage. Nor will he have the "save the rail link" voters and it's highly unlikely that the anti-amalgamation people will help either as the Hasting voters in the referendum are more than keen to get rid of their present administration. As to elZorros sheeples, I assume that he is referring to the 75% or so of Kiwis who did not vote labour in the last election and are therefore somewhat less intelligent than his lot. That is a sad comment on one who appears to be a leading odvocate of the left.

No Craic, I was referring to W69's cartoon about sheep on a couch, agreeing with all the good stuff National are doing. John Key was at Fieldays today, opening the event (but it started 4 hours before that of course, it was symbolic). His speech was not very memorable, although the stage setup was fairly flash. I spoke to an exhibitor who was not impressed with the R&D part-funding setup at Callaghan for SMEs, it's so difficult and tedious to fill out that they don't even try. They'll work on stuff slowly by themselves, from cashflow. That leaves all the big guys to help themselves to most of the funding, which of course is what we see now.

Daytr
10-06-2015, 09:08 PM
Accidents just happen! Tell that to the families of the Pike River mine disaster. Yes sometimes they do happen & sometimes they are preventable.
Work & safety rubbish, as you term it is the reason we don't have as many people dying in work accidents as we used to.
No one is asking for work to be banned either, just made as safe as possible.
Quite frankly your post is utter rubbish & that sort of view belongs in the Victorian age.



Im with you on this one Craic. Accidents at work are bound to happen, regardless of all the Work and Safety rubbish they prescribe us. I was a few years ago felling trees on a mates farm and nearly had a tree fall on me. I had done nothing wrong, had not ignored any safety prescriptions. It just happens. Driving a car kills about 400 a year in NZ and I do not see them calling for a ban on driving.

elZorro
11-06-2015, 06:46 AM
Accidents just happen! Tell that to the families of the Pike River mine disaster. Yes sometimes they do happen & sometimes they are preventable.
Work & safety rubbish, as you term it is the reason we don't have as many people dating in wok accidents as we used to.
No one is asking for work to be banned either, just made as safe as possible.
Quite frankly your post is utter rubbish & that sort of view belongs in the Victorian age.

Daytr, Patrick Smellie agrees with you, except about wok accidents (overcooked?).

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/69232030/time-to-stop-fiddling-on-health-and-safety-reform?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+11 +June+2015

blackcap
11-06-2015, 07:24 AM
Accidents just happen! Tell that to the families of the Pike River mine disaster. Yes sometimes they do happen & sometimes they are preventable.
Work & safety rubbish, as you term it is the reason we don't have as many people dating in wok accidents as we used to.
No one is asking for work to be banned either, just made as safe as possible.
Quite frankly your post is utter rubbish & that sort of view belongs in the Victorian age.

I guess we will just disagree then on the definition of an accident. Pike River was no accident. But what I really mean is that you cannot legislate against stupid. In some cases legislation will not help prevent accidents but grossly impede the ability to work productively and in my opinion we are at that point now where to go further would be detrimental to this country. I am not advocating going back to a Victorian age (those days were terrible) but the sliding scale is starting to get out of hand. Example.. we could legislate for 0 road deaths per year (speed limit of 20km/h) but we do not... because it impedes progress.

winner69
11-06-2015, 07:27 AM
When's the next TPPA protest March?

Key doing a good job for his mates in helping getting thisget through, not just in NZ but touting it across the world.

He must be brought to account before its too late.

EZ, I sense Labour is on the 'inside' as well

Daytr
11-06-2015, 07:51 AM
Yep I get your point & agree some 'accidents' were people/companies ignoring current regulations.
However Pike River being an example, where were the inspectors in regards the quite obvious departures from either good or even legal practice?
It appears there was a complete departure from compliance by both the company and mine inspectors.
Having recently managed an industrial plant with 100+ workers per shift, I didn't see one instance where safety got in the way of productivity, but I did see a few examples of the opposite. I'm sure there are examples where the regulations are in the way of good practice, however what are your examples of this? It only takes one fatality to think what was the cost of preventing that. You can to a degree prevent stupid accidents as well through training, although accidents obviously aren't fully preventable in dangerous environments.

Anyway back to the point. National are dragging their heels in regards safety regulations for NZ workers. They have taken away other protections in regards zero hour contracts that even the fast food chains have had to backflip on to prevent a public backlash & then tea breaks. Tea breaks may sound like a fairly small thing, but when you are doing physical work particularly those breaks are not only important for the worker to refuel & re-hydrate it will also add to productivity. Having managed large teams of people for many years in differing environments I have always got far more out of my staff if they are respected, feel safe & given at least what they are due & when they need it flexibility. When you need them to go that extra mile, there is no argument & they will be happy to oblige rather than feel they are just being taken advantage of again.


I guess we will just disagree then on the definition of an accident. Pike River was no accident. But what I really mean is that you cannot legislate against stupid. In some cases legislation will not help prevent accidents but grossly impede the ability to work productively and in my opinion we are at that point now where to go further would be detrimental to this country. I am not advocating going back to a Victorian age (those days were terrible) but the sliding scale is starting to get out of hand. Example.. we could legislate for 0 road deaths per year (speed limit of 20km/h) but we do not... because it impedes progress.

Daytr
11-06-2015, 07:58 AM
I joined the last march that coincided with the last day of the Northland bi-election campaign.
Funny, I read an article yesterday from the US point of view & they were pointing out the same things about the ability of foreign corporates to sue governments etc. Europe seems to be the ray of light here pushing back strongly on their equivalent agreement.
Love it that we are looking to join a trade bloc without China our biggest trading partner.
Obama has been a huge advocate of this, which I find odd being a democrat, I would have thought the republicans would even be more keen.
The TPPA fits with National's agenda of privatizing anything & everything where corporates will be running government services for profit.
This opens up the government for more pressure & lobbying or worse from big corporates.
What's the next step in our American model ? Private military contractors ?


When's the next TPPA protest March?

Key doing a good job for his mates in helping getting thisget through, not just in NZ but touting it across the world.

He must be brought to account before its too late.

EZ, I sense Labour is on the 'inside' as well

elZorro
11-06-2015, 09:54 AM
When's the next TPPA protest March?

Key doing a good job for his mates in helping getting thisget through, not just in NZ but touting it across the world.

He must be brought to account before its too late.

EZ, I sense Labour is on the 'inside' as well

W69, I've been more interested in the local electorate so far, I guess I'm not that much of a political animal. But I will mention all this at the next meeting we have, see if the local MP has any comments on that.

elZorro
11-06-2015, 05:39 PM
W69, here's your chance to help with the TPPA question: new online signature campaign from Labour gathering hundreds of signatures every minute.

http://go.labour.org.nz/tppa?utm_campaign=150611_tppa2&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nzlabour

winner69
11-06-2015, 06:40 PM
W69, here's your chance to help with the TPPA question: new online signature campaign from Labour gathering hundreds of signatures every minute.

http://go.labour.org.nz/tppa?utm_campaign=150611_tppa2&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nzlabour

Done

Plea for cash seemed a bit desperate

elZorro
11-06-2015, 06:43 PM
Done

Plea for cash seemed a bit desperate

Yes, we are desperate. I hope you sent some through.. otherwise we won't be able to keep the Gestetner running :)

winner69
11-06-2015, 06:45 PM
Yes, we are desperate. I hope you sent some through.. otherwise we won't be able to keep the Gestetner running :)

EZ, what's a Gestetner

'Define' on the iPad no comprehend

winner69
11-06-2015, 06:57 PM
EZ, Now I being stalked by one Dr David Clark

Is he this Gestener thing's operator?

macduffy
11-06-2015, 07:10 PM
EZ, Now I being stalked by one Dr David Clark

Is he this Gestener thing's operator?

You've got to be kidding, winner!

Surely you're old enough to remember how to use a Gestetner duplicator?

;)

winner69
11-06-2015, 07:17 PM
This Dr Clark. Hadn't heard much about him so did a bit of research.

Has a passion for an equal and just society, my sort of man.

Been famous for being the promoter of the Mondayisation Bill and was the celebrant at Robertson's wedding. Bad marks for being a Parker advisor though.

Articles seem to describe him as a 'Smart cookie' and Labours 'keenest bean' but one comment is why does Labour want another "well dressed liberal leftie'

Has some pretty high profile roles in Labour caucus - where is he in their rankings?

winner69
11-06-2015, 07:22 PM
You've got to be kidding, winner!

Surely you're old enough to remember how to use a Gestetner duplicator?

;)

I think there was one at school .... were they those things that went clackity clack and round and round and made copies.

Do you still use log tables macduffy?

elZorro
11-06-2015, 09:29 PM
This Dr Clark. Hadn't heard much about him so did a bit of research.

Has a passion for an equal and just society, my sort of man.

Been famous for being the promoter of the Mondayisation Bill and was the celebrant at Robertson's wedding. Bad marks for being a Parker advisor though.

Articles seem to describe him as a 'Smart cookie' and Labours 'keenest bean' but one comment is why does Labour want another "well dressed liberal leftie'

Has some pretty high profile roles in Labour caucus - where is he in their rankings?

Good point, I should know all about him, he's the opposition spokesperson for SMEs. He's no. 26 on the list, ranked no. 10 in the party.

http://campaign.labour.org.nz/24_november_2014_front_bench_lineup

He's held Dunedin North well, for two elections. David Clark does seem to be well qualified, W69.

There was a Gestetner at our rural primary school too, but it was at the end of its tether and was probably replaced by lots of fundraising soon after I got there. I remember the headmaster covered in ink after working it. We had an old film projector too, which liked to burn holes in film when it jammed up. Kids these days, they have no idea.

macduffy
12-06-2015, 07:45 AM
I think there was one at school .... were they those things that went clackity clack and round and round and made copies.

Do you still use log tables macduffy?

No, log tables are a bit too modern for me. I'm still mastering my abacus.

;)

winner69
12-06-2015, 08:12 PM
Article on interest.co.nz about that right wing faction of the Labour Party wanting tosetvup a think tank or something.

Couldn't really care about that but one of Comments I feel aligned with


by Mike B | Fri, 12/06/2015 - 13:47

The Labour party died in the late 70's in my book. They have only gotten worse since then.

Once Winstone retires or dies that will be the end of NZFirst

If the Greens don't shine under their new leadership JK will rule forever

Who's left to vote for?

winner69
12-06-2015, 08:14 PM
No, log tables are a bit too modern for me. I'm still mastering my abacus.

;)

Had a clean out the other day, found my old slide rule ..... Jeez it still works .....amazing technology back in those days

Daytr
13-06-2015, 11:46 AM
TPPA struggling in the US congress.
Strange how this is the will of a Democrat president not supported by his own party for many of the same reasons people fear here, but supported of course by the big business orientated Republicans. Free Trade agreement or Free access for multinationals to do what they have done in the US already & cripple the political system with lobbying & corporate agenda. National are already heading down the path of the US model with corporatizing one thing after another. Do we really want to keep going down this path that has economically crippled the US government & seen the likes of corporates supplying troops & military contracts?

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-06-12/obama-s-trade-plan-needs-almost-100-votes-to-pass-u-s-house

fungus pudding
13-06-2015, 01:37 PM
Good point, I should know all about him, he's the opposition spokesperson for SMEs. He's no. 26 on the list, ranked no. 10 in the party.

http://campaign.labour.org.nz/24_november_2014_front_bench_lineup

He's held Dunedin North well, for two elections. David Clark does seem to be well qualified, W69.



He's a good MP, but holding Dunedin North is no momentous achievement. They vote labour regardless of candidate, with the one exception when high profile, Richard Walls won it for National from the most hopeless candidate Labour ever promoted; a butcher named Brian Arnold.

Daytr
13-06-2015, 06:39 PM
This latest people smuggling allegation could spell the end for Tony Abbott as PM of Australia. If true its absolutely shocking behavior. The recent boat of refugees were reportedly heading to NZ. Did anyone find this strange considering they were in the north Java sea?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11464796

artemis
14-06-2015, 09:02 AM
This latest people smuggling allegation could spell the end for Tony Abbott as PM of Australia. If true its absolutely shocking behavior.

Perhaps the issue will spell doom for Mr Abbot. But IMO it is much more likely that the voting public will be happy that the current approach is working. IIRC there was a poll on the general issue of the people smuggler "business model" in which there was very strong support for stopping it.

It is very rough on those who paid for passage and did not get illegal entry to another country. But if the alternative is being deposited on Manus Island or the like at Australia's ongoing cost and significant time to resolve individual issues, who can blame the Australian Government for taking a different option. If they actually did.

If Australia does not take a hardnosed attitude to illegal immigrants, well there is a large restive population in our region. Seems there are up to half a mill hopefuls waiting in Libya for passage to Europe. We could easily see something similar in our region.

Daytr
14-06-2015, 10:24 AM
Artemis, if this is true Australia is financing people smuggling. i.e. the smugglers are paid by the refugees to get to Australia & then Australia is paying them to be returned. Its abhorrent in my opinion. I'm not saying its an easy thing to deal with, but this is not the answer. Boat people smuggling is completely blown out of proportion in Australia and its used as a fear mongering issue. Compare the numbers to those coming by plane, they don't even compare but you never hear about it. Australia under Howard denied Red Cross access to detention camps, I'm not sure if that still the case. People need to be treated humanely & not held in a prison that we wouldn't hold criminals in for years on end, including children, or families separated.
So I guess what I'm saying is Australia needs to clean up its act in regards processing illegal immigrants full stop & this latest example is even worse than the current situation. There is obviously a massive refugee problem created by the conflict in Syria, with millions displaced, however we are more concerned with ISIS than doing anything about that. When I say we I mean the US led alliance.

Sgt Pepper
14-06-2015, 01:18 PM
He's a good MP, but holding Dunedin North is no momentous achievement. , with the one exception when high profile, Richard Walls won it for National from the most hopeless candidate Labour ever promoted; a butcher named Brian Arnold.

FP
"They vote labour regardless of candidate"

I guess the same observation could be made of the Clutha Southland electorate. When voters had the choice between a 30yrs old female physician and mother of two chose a 22year old male whose sole work experience was a brief stint marketing cigarettes .

fungus pudding
14-06-2015, 04:45 PM
FP
"They vote labour regardless of candidate"

I guess the same observation could be made of the Clutha Southland electorate. When voters had the choice between a 30yrs old female physician and mother of two chose a 22year old male whose sole work experience was a brief stint marketing cigarettes .

Of course.

elZorro
14-06-2015, 05:55 PM
FP
"They vote labour regardless of candidate"

I guess the same observation could be made of the Clutha Southland electorate. When voters had the choice between a 30yrs old female physician and mother of two chose a 22year old male whose sole work experience was a brief stint marketing cigarettes .

I like the way you always have a good reply, Sgt Pepper.

Fonterra is in the limelight at the moment: farmers tightening their belts and Fonterra workers being let go, so why not suggest the CEO's salary be halved? It's still a great salary, well above what MPs get, and they work very long hours. Over 12 hours/day for a backbench MP on $150,000 (plus some possible perks).

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11464231&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Saturday+13 +June+2015

For a salary of $4mill, I would expect that every sentence Mr Spierings says would be incredibly brilliant. I haven't noticed much yet.

Daytr
14-06-2015, 06:31 PM
EZ, what's Labour's stance on the TPPA?

elZorro
14-06-2015, 06:39 PM
EZ, what's Labour's stance on the TPPA?

Daytr, I haven't followed this as hard as W69, but here is the policy, which was probably formed by the 2014 election. Labour can't do much more than strongly suggest that the terms are made clear, and until we all see those, it's hard to reject it out of hand. The terms can't all be that great, or we'd have seen them by now.

http://campaign.labour.org.nz/our_position_on_the_tpp

winner69
14-06-2015, 06:49 PM
TPPA struggling in the US congress.
Strange how this is the will of a Democrat president not supported by his own party for many of the same reasons people fear here, but supported of course by the big business orientated Republicans. Free Trade agreement or Free access for multinationals to do what they have done in the US already & cripple the political system with lobbying & corporate agenda. National are already heading down the path of the US model with corporatizing one thing after another. Do we really want to keep going down this path that has economically crippled the US government & seen the likes of corporates supplying troops & military contracts?

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-06-12/obama-s-trade-plan-needs-almost-100-votes-to-pass-u-s-house

The NWO will not be pleased will they

No doubt many promises / electoral bribes being offered to the dissenters. Funny, democrats needing to 'bribe' democrats

elZorro
15-06-2015, 06:37 AM
The NWO will not be pleased will they

No doubt many promises / electoral bribes being offered to the dissenters. Funny, democrats needing to 'bribe' democrats

Looks like the TPP will be delayed at least until 2018, never mind John, that's past the 2017 elections.

Jeanette Fitzsimons and the Coal Action group were removed from Fieldays, not before making a point. I know that when the gas pipeline was damaged, Fonterra immediately had a warmer look at coal stockpiles as an option.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1506/S00520/fonterras-coal-use-under-the-spotlight-at-mystery-creek.htm?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+15+J une+2015

More on the top CEO salaries in NZ. Heading back up to 2010 records.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11464131&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+15+J une+2015

Daytr
15-06-2015, 09:39 AM
Key on National Radio this morning saying that he is unaware if NZ has had any involvement in paying people smugglers to turn their boats around.
Unaware! Hardly an outright denial. I said when the news first broke that a boat in the Java sea was reportedly on its way to NZ that this seemed odd.
Now Key is also saying he can see both sides of the argument in regards paying people smugglers!
There is more to this otherwise Key would outright deny that NZ has been involved.
If proven NZ was involved & he is unaware, why wouldn't he outright deny it, as surely this policy is 1) illegal & 2) immoral.
It would also suggest Key again has lied to the NZ public as surely he would just outright deny it, however being unaware somehow gives him an out.

Put it another way. A heroin smuggler is caught at customs, instead of arresting the criminal customs say, hey we don't want a bar of this, how about we pay you for the drugs, but you also get to keep the drugs as long as you take them away with you & we hope you don't try again.


This latest people smuggling allegation could spell the end for Tony Abbott as PM of Australia. If true its absolutely shocking behavior. The recent boat of refugees were reportedly heading to NZ. Did anyone find this strange considering they were in the north Java sea?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11464796

winner69
15-06-2015, 10:21 AM
Key on National Radio this morning saying that he is unaware if NZ has had any involvement in paying people smugglers to turn their boats around.
Unaware! Hardly an outright denial. I said when the news first broke that a boat in the Java sea was reportedly on its way to NZ that this seemed odd.
Now Key is also saying he can see both sides of the argument in regards paying people smugglers!
There is more to this otherwise Key would outright deny that NZ has been involved.
If proven NZ was involved & he is unaware, why wouldn't he outright deny it, as surely this policy is 1) illegal & 2) immoral.
It would also suggest Key again has lied to the NZ public as surely he would just outright deny it, however being unaware somehow gives him an out.

Put it another way. A heroin smuggler is caught at customs, instead of arresting the criminal customs say, hey we don't want a bar of this, how about we pay you for the drugs, but you also get to keep the drugs as long as you take them away with you & we hope you don't try again.

Wouldn't even come out and say that such activity was 'unacceptable' .....but he sees 'both sides of the argument' though

winner69
15-06-2015, 04:44 PM
James obviously has a plan .... buy votes

EZ --- How does Labour counter?


(Tom Scott / Dompost)

neopoleII
15-06-2015, 07:14 PM
""Put it another way. A heroin smuggler is caught at customs, instead of arresting the criminal customs say, hey we don't want a bar of this, how about we pay you for the drugs, but you also get to keep the drugs as long as you take them away with you & we hope you don't try again.""

the problem with this statement is....... the smuggler is smuggling an illegal item...... where as the people smugglers are transporting people.
these transported people once they land on the shores of a democratic country generally get endless legal support for their bid to stay in said country
even if they entered via illegal means..... which just opens the door to the masses....... example .... the 100s of thousands landing on Europes doorstep every year.

are we able to openly welcome 1000s of illegal refugees every year?
who is to pay for their housing, food, new lifestyle?

in the mean time..... genuine migrants with skills that we want are finding it hard to get to NZ the legal way...... so why open the backdoor?
because it is "immoral" to pay the smugglers to go back home with their illegal aliens who paid big bucks for an illegal attempt to enter a rich country?

disclosure....... i am an immigrant from europe and been here for 40 odd years...... but we came here the legal way and paid for the privilege to be
a part of this society.

Daytr
15-06-2015, 08:55 PM
Well in Australia they actually generally end up in a detention center on an island in the middle of no-where.
Trafficking people is also illegal, but apparently its ok as long as they are being transported back where they come from sponsored by the government.
NZ and Australia are both wealthy countries & need to treat people humanly & within the law.
Last I looked paying off criminals who trade in people was illegal.
Typically the desperate can't pay the legal way to get here or Australia or more likely don't qualify, however that doesn't mean each case shouldn't be processed on its merits.

elZorro
15-06-2015, 09:01 PM
James obviously has a plan .... buy votes

EZ --- How does Labour counter?


(Tom Scott / Dompost)

Doubling membership for two years running?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/69338078/james-shaw-sets-a-high-hurdle-but-could-it-be-his-downfall

I think they're looking at campaign funding shortfalls too. I wouldn't mind too much either way as long as Labour get set up alongside the Greens early on in this term, and stay there.

Daytr
15-06-2015, 09:02 PM
Is National actually working for NZers? Who does this serve allowing raw pork imports & the very real possibility of the NZ industry being exposed to diseases we currently are free of. We have already have had multiple fruit fly outbreaks due to their changes in policy to bio-security.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10898488

iceman
15-06-2015, 10:59 PM
""Put it another way. A heroin smuggler is caught at customs, instead of arresting the criminal customs say, hey we don't want a bar of this, how about we pay you for the drugs, but you also get to keep the drugs as long as you take them away with you & we hope you don't try again.""

the problem with this statement is....... the smuggler is smuggling an illegal item...... where as the people smugglers are transporting people.
these transported people once they land on the shores of a democratic country generally get endless legal support for their bid to stay in said country
even if they entered via illegal means..... which just opens the door to the masses....... example .... the 100s of thousands landing on Europes doorstep every year.

are we able to openly welcome 1000s of illegal refugees every year?
who is to pay for their housing, food, new lifestyle?

in the mean time..... genuine migrants with skills that we want are finding it hard to get to NZ the legal way...... so why open the backdoor?
because it is "immoral" to pay the smugglers to go back home with their illegal aliens who paid big bucks for an illegal attempt to enter a rich country?

disclosure....... i am an immigrant from europe and been here for 40 odd years...... but we came here the legal way and paid for the privilege to be
a part of this society.

Agree with all of that napoleoII. What is happening in Europe is a humanitarian disaster and noone has a solution. The immigration into Europe, much of it illegal, is starting to cause havoc in many countries. This includes such unlikely countries as Sweden where racial tensions are on the rise fast. Sadly, Europe has been too lax for too long and are facing serious problems throughout the continent because of it.

The resident lefties on here have been jumping up and down and making statements about NZ paying off the people smugglers. It has been firmly denied by the PM.

Just a bit of hot smoke like most of the other issues brought up, such as the ponytail rubbish. The litigious and frivolous clown from Hamilton (don't care to memorize his name) today was told to stop wasting the court systems time and had it thrown out.

Sgt Pepper
16-06-2015, 07:51 AM
Agree with all of that napoleoII. What is happening in Europe is a humanitarian disaster and noone has a solution. The immigration into Europe, much of it illegal, is starting to cause havoc in many countries. This includes such unlikely countries as Sweden where racial tensions are on the rise fast. Sadly, Europe has been too lax for too long and are facing serious problems throughout the continent because of it.

The resident lefties on here have been jumping up and down and making statements about NZ paying off the people smugglers. It has been firmly denied by the PM.

Just a bit of hot smoke like most of the other issues brought up, such as the ponytail rubbish. The litigious and frivolous clown from Hamilton (don't care to memorize his name) today was told to stop wasting the court systems time and had
it thrown out.

Iceman

"It has been firmly denied by the PM."

I don't think I would characterise his response as a firm denial. I believe he said " I am not aware of it"

RGR367
16-06-2015, 07:57 AM
Is National actually working for NZers? Who does this serve allowing raw pork imports & the very real possibility of the NZ industry being exposed to diseases we currently are free of. We have already have had multiple fruit fly outbreaks due to their changes in policy to bio-security.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10898488

Would you agree that the above statements were almost the same reasoning when it was the Australian apple growers questioning their gov't then of allowing apple imports from NZ? How you see the world trade to your benefit only will no longer work I reckon.

craic
16-06-2015, 08:10 AM
As a fit healthy Irishman with an excellent work record, solvent and with a reasonable command of the English language, I am not allowed to live or work in Australia, in spite of the contribution my countrymen made to the establishment of that land. I am welcome to come and stay there for a week or two most years but I always leave on the approved date. A greasy little drug dealer from SouthEast Asia can pay his way onto a boat and turn up there and humanitarians, or mugs, will defend his right to be there. And the Bastards who took the money, and provided the boat will be able to change into refugees at the last minute and want to be Australians. If the Australian govt. have found that the cheapest way to stop this trade is set a thief to catch a thief, then good on them. Maybe those who are sent back will turn on the profiteers andd throw them overboard.

Daytr
16-06-2015, 08:17 AM
It depends if the argument is legitimate or not so it depends on its merits.
However the fact is that National have downgraded our boarder controls on bio-security & we have seen the impact of that with whole suburbs in Auckland having to be cut off in regards fruit & veg movement & the cost must have been horrendous, let alone the risk of a more serious or permanent infestation. The pork could be imported if it was treated effectively. I really question what so called FTA agreements have given us with a lot of countries we deal with having their own protections in place no matter what. When we import food, we need to know how & where that food has been grown. What are consumers being exposed to so they have an informed choice & is the pork for instance being raised in ethical conditions of what we would expect in NZ. So imo there are a lot of reasons to ensure that we are not exposing NZ to risk or perhaps supporting unethical farming practice that the pork industry is renowned for.


Would you agree that the above statements were almost the same reasoning when it was the Australian apple growers questioning their gov't then of allowing apple imports from NZ? How you see the world trade to your benefit only will no longer work I reckon.

Daytr
16-06-2015, 11:40 AM
As many that follow this thread are aware, I don't give National credit for much, as imo there is very little to like about their policy & direction.
In saying that there are some things I think they have done well, as mentioned previously the flexibility around WINZ for people out of work to take on seasonal work etc. Today they have announced we will become a founding member of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank putting up $125M of capital. This is in spite of the US discouraging any involvement. It also perhaps flies in the face of the TPPA, or maybe we can do both, not that I'm an advocate of the TPPA at all, in fact quite the opposite. So credit where credit is due, on the face of it, this seems like a smart & prudent move.

Daytr
16-06-2015, 06:56 PM
On top of importing raw pork the government turns a blind eye to exporting ancient Kari logs because apparently they are finished goods that are 'carved'.
No coincidence that Crusher Collins husband is involved via Oravida. Not for the first time controversy surrounds this company. This resource should be treated like a mining resource & regulated as such. To rip up wetlands & export whole logs that have been preserved for 10s of thousands of years to make a few people rich imo is a disgrace & for the government not to act in what is a clear violation of the law to protect swamp Kauri.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/top/276363/minister-defends-trade-in-kauri-swamp-logs

neopoleII
16-06-2015, 07:04 PM
""We have already have had multiple fruit fly outbreaks due to their changes in policy to bio-security. ""

so how many fruit fly outbreaks were under nationals watch?
this link might explain it better.
http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/files/pests/queensland-fruit-fly/queensland-fruit-fly-fact-sheet-april-2014.pdf

as for illegal immigrants here is a video link of the "NZ holiday highway" that the left wingers oppose but welcome said immigrants.... whoops... wrong country.......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syyl0gfNDRE

sad thing is...... the propaganda from some NZers is unbelievable.

good thing its a free country with free expression of though and the right to travel safely and unhindered.

neopoleII
16-06-2015, 07:38 PM
""To rip up wetlands & export whole logs that have been preserved for 10s of thousands of years to make a few people rich imo is a disgrace & for the government not to act in what is a clear violation of the law to protect swamp Kauri.""

here is a link to swamp kauri from where i grew up.... the developers moved in to build houses for NZers but found hundreds of giant stumps and trunks under the ground.
so...... they offered it for free to ANYONE who would come and remove it.
i was there back in those days cutting wood and loading trailers at full speed for weeks....... as were many other wood turners and joiners etc.
at the end of the free for all... the rest was burnt..... the rest was more than half the wood that was dug up.
there were no iwi claiming stake or taking free wood.
there is now a large residential complex on the site.
fast forward to today...... and that wood it now a political hot potato.
google maps is your friend...... have a look.

http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/council/documents/districtplanpapakura/appendix16.pdf

"More recently large quantities of buried kauri logs and root systems were excavated to make
the development of the Bruce Pullman Park possible (NZ Herald April6, 1996, S4, p3).

and the result of the harvested wood from one small group
http://thegreylynnwoodturner.co.nz/projects/swamp-kauri-small-bowl/

winner69
16-06-2015, 07:58 PM
EZ, great graphic. Sad though that things have come to this

Great ammo for your team but they not really making the most of it

Daytr
16-06-2015, 08:15 PM
In Northland the trade is worth 10s of millions. The Chinese are paying bucket loads for the stuff. Wetlands are being destroyed all over Northland, there has been violence related to the trade including one guy being razored across the face because he opposed the environmental devastation. All I'm saying is this is an industry that needs more regulation & environmental approval process.


""To rip up wetlands & export whole logs that have been preserved for 10s of thousands of years to make a few people rich imo is a disgrace & for the government not to act in what is a clear violation of the law to protect swamp Kauri.""

here is a link to swamp kauri from where i grew up.... the developers moved in to build houses for NZers but found hundreds of giant stumps and trunks under the ground.
so...... they offered it for free to ANYONE who would come and remove it.
i was there back in those days cutting wood and loading trailers at full speed for weeks....... as were many other wood turners and joiners etc.
at the end of the free for all... the rest was burnt..... the rest was more than half the wood that was dug up.
there were no iwi claiming stake or taking free wood.
there is now a large residential complex on the site.
fast forward to today...... and that wood it now a political hot potato.
google maps is your friend...... have a look.

http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/council/documents/districtplanpapakura/appendix16.pdf

"More recently large quantities of buried kauri logs and root systems were excavated to make
the development of the Bruce Pullman Park possible (NZ Herald April6, 1996, S4, p3).

and the result of the harvested wood from one small group
http://thegreylynnwoodturner.co.nz/projects/swamp-kauri-small-bowl/

elZorro
16-06-2015, 08:43 PM
EZ, great graphic. Sad though that things have come to this

Great ammo for your team but they not really making the most of it

I heard on RadioNZ this evening, some tough questions being raised in the house about Nick Smith, of John Key by Andrew Little. John didn't answer them all.

iceman
17-06-2015, 12:32 AM
I beg to differ
~http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11465601


Iceman

"It has been firmly denied by the PM."

I don't think I would characterise his response as a firm denial. I believe he said " I am not aware of it"

Daytr
17-06-2015, 08:17 AM
Link doesn't work Iceman, been taken down? I heard the PM live on Natioanl Radio at the time & he was very wish-washy as Sgt Pepper stated.
Good to see the swamp kauri making national headlines & Dover Samuels & Winston Peters getting on board asking for a moratorium & regulation set up around the industry. Although Dover Samuels could have raised this a hell of a lot earlier as its been going on for years.

Certainly not a great couple of weeks for National. Sheepgate, bullgate, social housing, pork imports & now the MPI turning a blind eye to obvious flouting of the law in regards swamp kauri exports.
I'm sure there are a few issues I have missed as there have almost been too many to keep up!
Perhaps others could help out filling in the gaps. :-)
National supporters have been very quiet of late.
Understandable I suppose, its not too late to jump ship, uniquely the rats go down with this ship. ;-)


I beg to differ
~http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11465601 (http://~http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11465601)

winner69
17-06-2015, 08:23 AM
Fairfax sacking most of their cartoonists

Government must be getting a bit pissed off with a lot of the content.

Daytr
17-06-2015, 09:06 AM
I hear they are joining Campbell in a new satirical show... ;-)
Monty Python meets Jon Stewart.


Fairfax sacking most of their cartoonists

Government must be getting a bit pissed off with a lot of the content.

Major von Tempsky
17-06-2015, 09:13 PM
Whatever happened to Andrea Vance in the Sunday Star Times? Not that I miss her invariably hysterical left wing diatribe but she has been gone for 2 consecutive weekends. Did I miss a small announcement somewhere? Has Peter Dunne swept her off her feet?

Sgt Pepper
18-06-2015, 08:20 AM
Whatever happened to Andrea Vance in the Sunday Star Times? Not that I miss her invariably hysterical left wing diatribe but she has been gone for 2 consecutive weekends. Did I miss a small announcement somewhere? Has Peter Dunne swept her off her feet?

Major
she is, I believe at Oxford University, she received a Sir Woolf Fisher scholarship. Clever people left wing journalists. .

Daytr
18-06-2015, 09:31 AM
Craic, there are certainly people who will try & buy there way in illegally who are not legitimate refugees, some of them maybe criminals, a lot are probably desperate people looking for a better life and some will be evading persecution. I can guarantee you that the majority aren't 1) greasy or 2) drug dealers. The people being smuggled on boats should be dealt with humanely & efficiently & that doesn't mean granting them residency without verifying that they are a legitimate refugee. As I have said before NZ & Australia are both wealthy countries & its a disgrace to treat people in this matter. Not that NZ directly is, that we know of, however Key was very 'political' in response saying he can see both sides of the argument. There is no other side that is 1) moral or 2) legal. Paying criminals to take the people back is hardly a disincentive, hell its more profitable for the criminals who deal in desperate people's misery or as you say perhaps trying to smuggle criminals.

NZ is in a very fortunate position that we don't have boat people on our boarders & I hope that never becomes the case for the main reason as many would die due to the seas they would have to cross, compared to the relatively sheltered waters of the Java sea. So NZ is in a position to be generous as they are not having to be pressured into dealing with illegal immigrants in boats & we have policy in regards numbers that we could increase as the Greens are current advocating. Its not like National doesn't want immigration, in fact they are depending on it, so perhaps instead of people qualifying on the basis of their wealth we could be more open to taking in more refugees. We did so after WWII, also Vietnamese & Cambodians. The world is facing the biggest refugee crisis since WWII & we need to play our small part in setting an example to other countries.



As a fit healthy Irishman with an excellent work record, solvent and with a reasonable command of the English language, I am not allowed to live or work in Australia, in spite of the contribution my countrymen made to the establishment of that land. I am welcome to come and stay there for a week or two most years but I always leave on the approved date. A greasy little drug dealer from SouthEast Asia can pay his way onto a boat and turn up there and humanitarians, or mugs, will defend his right to be there. And the Bastards who took the money, and provided the boat will be able to change into refugees at the last minute and want to be Australians. If the Australian govt. have found that the cheapest way to stop this trade is set a thief to catch a thief, then good on them. Maybe those who are sent back will turn on the profiteers andd throw them overboard.

Daytr
18-06-2015, 09:50 AM
Good to see the trade in swamp kauri getting more publicity and political debate. The MPI has turned a blind eye to obvious flouting of the law in regards the export of kauri logs & large slabs being finished product. This is a natural resource that is being plundered by a few & breaking the already flimsy law around its export under the glazed eye of the MPI. Oravida again at the center of things as well. Does this explain the MPI's lack of integrity & policing of this trade?
As a natural resource that has been preserved for 10s of thousands of years & is likely to only go up in value over time, it needs to be protected. The best value should be extracted from the industry and that its not just lining the pockets of a few. There is very little regulation around the environmental damage of extraction or the product itself & we should ensure NZ benefits far more than it currently does. This is a province that is crying out for jobs & here is a resource that we could be using to create a lot of jobs.
If National still held the Northland seat I can't imagine this issue getting any traction at all, in fact it didn't for all the time they did hold the electorate.

craic
18-06-2015, 09:58 AM
Firstly I did not say that all were "greasy" or "drug dealers". But after many trips to SE Asia, I can assure you that if there are places in a boat at a price, it will not be the poor and the needy at the front of the queue. Most of them don't have the price price of their next meal.Possibly the better way to increase the population[would be the way I was dealt with when I phoned immigration to tell them that I was an illegal immigrant and wanted to sort my status out.
First reply over the phone "but your"e British"
"No i'm not, I"m Irish.
Second reply, "Oh we regard that as British and you are entitled to be here. We are not interested in how you got here."
We could fill the place with multi-coloured Poms in no time flat and that would put the Asians off
QUOTE=Daytr;576739]Craic, there are certainly people who will try & buy there way in illegally who are not legitimate refugees, some of them maybe criminals, a lot are probably desperate people looking for a better life and some will be evading persecution. I can guarantee you that the majority aren't 1) greasy or 2) drug dealers. The people being smuggled on boats should be dealt with humanely & efficiently & that doesn't mean granting them residency without verifying that they are a legitimate refugee. As I have said before NZ & Australia are both wealthy countries & its a disgrace to treat people in this matter. Not that NZ directly is, that we know of, however Key was very 'political' in response saying he can see both sides of the argument. There is no other side that is 1) moral or 2) legal. Paying criminals to take the people back is hardly a disincentive, hell its more profitable for the criminals who deal in desperate people's misery or as you say perhaps trying to smuggle criminals.

NZ is in a very fortunate position that we don't have boat people on our boarders & I hope that never becomes the case for the main reason as many would die due to the seas they would have to cross, compared to the relatively sheltered waters of the Java sea. So NZ is in a position to be generous as they are not having to be pressured into dealing with illegal immigrants in boats & we have policy in regards numbers that we could increase as the Greens are current advocating. Its not like National doesn't want immigration, in fact they are depending on it, so perhaps instead of people qualifying on the basis of their wealth we could be more open to taking in more refugees. We did so after WWII, also Vietnamese & Cambodians. The world is facing the biggest refugee crisis since WWII & we need to play our small part in setting an example to other countries.[/QUOTE]

craic
18-06-2015, 10:09 AM
It has been tried before. Don't you remember the flood of swamp Kauri logs that were converted into clocks,covered in shiny varnish, that filled the walls of "craft" shops all over the country in the sixties, seventies and eighties? The appear in clearance auctions of junk, regularly and usuall fetch $5 to$10 for the box lot. There were odd coffee tables but most were overpriced. The other factor is that air conditioning and central heating works wonders on this material. Just ask a major museum about preserving stuff that has been waterlogged for a century or two.

Daytr
18-06-2015, 11:03 AM
Well the Chinese obviously value the stuff as they are paying millions for it.
So I'm not suggesting we make furniture for the domestic market but tap into what the likes of the Chinese are using it for.
Reportedly coffins are a big use for ancient kauri & I doubt they are using massive kauri slab in its exported state for that.
But obviously table tops & I mean finished not again just slab as it is being exported as.
As usual you completely down play the argument in regards the potential for kauri & most of this stuff is thousands of years old & some over 100 thousand years old & its not water logged its preserved.

Daytr
18-06-2015, 11:14 AM
I didn't say you did, but this is the example you were using. So you have first hand knowledge of boat smugglers do you? I have visited south east Asia on multiple occasions as well & I would have no idea on how to get on a smugglers boat. Do you? If so how do you? I'm not saying you aren't right as I'm sure people smugglers will take anyone's money, but I do doubt your first hand knowledge of its as you claim. This also underpins why the Australian government shouldn't be paying criminals i.e. people smugglers.

So let me get this straight you were an illegal immigrant, I assume overstaying a tourist visa or the like & you put your hand up.
Your comment, we don't care how you got here. Well now obviously they do care.
What is the difference between them turning up & doing the same? They aren't trying to stay in Australia illegally they want to try gain residency by being processed, they know they just couldn't apply through the normal channels as they would never be granted a hearing.
And when I say you process them, they in no way are just granted residency but are granted residency on the merits of their case or sent back and not via a people smugglers boat.


Firstly I did not say that all were "greasy" or "drug dealers". But after many trips to SE Asia, I can assure you that if there are places in a boat at a price, it will not be the poor and the needy at the front of the queue. Most of them don't have the price price of their next meal.Possibly the better way to increase the population[would be the way I was dealt with when I phoned immigration to tell them that I was an illegal immigrant and wanted to sort my status out.
First reply over the phone "but your"e British"
"No i'm not, I"m Irish.
Second reply, "Oh we regard that as British and you are entitled to be here. We are not interested in how you got here."
We could fill the place with multi-coloured Poms in no time flat and that would put the Asians off
QUOTE=Daytr;576739]Craic, there are certainly people who will try & buy there way in illegally who are not legitimate refugees, some of them maybe criminals, a lot are probably desperate people looking for a better life and some will be evading persecution. I can guarantee you that the majority aren't 1) greasy or 2) drug dealers. The people being smuggled on boats should be dealt with humanely & efficiently & that doesn't mean granting them residency without verifying that they are a legitimate refugee. As I have said before NZ & Australia are both wealthy countries & its a disgrace to treat people in this matter. Not that NZ directly is, that we know of, however Key was very 'political' in response saying he can see both sides of the argument. There is no other side that is 1) moral or 2) legal. Paying criminals to take the people back is hardly a disincentive, hell its more profitable for the criminals who deal in desperate people's misery or as you say perhaps trying to smuggle criminals.

NZ is in a very fortunate position that we don't have boat people on our boarders & I hope that never becomes the case for the main reason as many would die due to the seas they would have to cross, compared to the relatively sheltered waters of the Java sea. So NZ is in a position to be generous as they are not having to be pressured into dealing with illegal immigrants in boats & we have policy in regards numbers that we could increase as the Greens are current advocating. Its not like National doesn't want immigration, in fact they are depending on it, so perhaps instead of people qualifying on the basis of their wealth we could be more open to taking in more refugees. We did so after WWII, also Vietnamese & Cambodians. The world is facing the biggest refugee crisis since WWII & we need to play our small part in setting an example to other countries.[/QUOTE]

craic
18-06-2015, 11:54 AM
As usual you are right - always. That you changed what I said to suit your argument - I wasn't a tourist - I was a ringbolter - but that doesn't matter. My wife was right this morning - "wasting your time on that Bloody computer" she didn't know it but wasting my time on the Left Wing Mutual Admiration Society was even worse - have a nice day

Daytr
18-06-2015, 12:48 PM
Haha, ok Craic, finally we are in agreement, re wasting your time. ;-)

elZorro
18-06-2015, 05:59 PM
W69, I can't see much about cartoonists on the web (now only one cartoonist per provincial paper?), but there are plenty of other Fairfax jobs being restructured.

http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/union-goes-into-bat-fairfax-staff-nearly-200-jobs-set-go-6324764

winner69
18-06-2015, 07:02 PM
EZ, you got me send hat letter to key re TTPA

Dr Clark has sent me a few emails since

Today andrew himself sent me one asking me to email key and say I was a REAL person (something to do with healthy homes). Apparently in keys eyes REAL people don't sign emails generated by Labour.

Labour use some relatively expensive software to manage all this stuff

I unsubscribed tonite. No more I hope

winner69
18-06-2015, 07:07 PM
A few votes up for grabs
http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/sauna-puts-heat-on-colin-craig-in-more-ways-than-one-2015061818#axzz3dOnLmhpd

I once had hope that theConservatives could take that radical centrist positioning.

Alas not to be

elZorro
18-06-2015, 07:37 PM
EZ, you got me send hat letter to key re TTPA

Dr Clark has sent me a few emails since

Today andrew himself sent me one asking me to email key and say I was a REAL person (something to do with healthy homes). Apparently in keys eyes REAL people don't sign emails generated by Labour.

Labour use some relatively expensive software to manage all this stuff

I unsubscribed tonite. No more I hope

Hi W69, no problem, they are very quick to reply to, and I just delete the requests for funds and to repost all over the social media. Often the big lists do seem to get National to change their ideas. The software is a lot cheaper than sending out mail, and they are still short of funds.

Here's a list of hot potatoes National MPs have at the moment. Apparently Nick Smith took the press over some empty paddocks to show them some of the new housing acreage. Except it wasn't govt land at all, it has a private landowner. He just makes stuff up.

http://thestandard.org.nz/a-partial-list-of-current-scandals/

Major von Tempsky
18-06-2015, 08:47 PM
Time to reintroduce Margaret Thatcher's great quote which has turned out so true in Greece, Argentina, Venezuela...and if Labour got back in again. New Zealand.

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.”

Daytr
18-06-2015, 09:19 PM
Funny MVT its actually what extreme capitalism has brought about in regards governments bailing out banks around the world & privatizing trillions of debt. And its National that have had the most consecutive years of not returning a surplus & who is 2nd, well its National again. They make claims that are just are not true about being good fiscal managers, when they have a dire record. It was Savage that bought NZ through the depression after the excesses of the 1920s. Muldoon almost broke NZ, and Key is heading down a similar path with a massive accumulation of debt under his watch. Muldoon had "Think Big", Keys mantra should be "Think short term" & stuff the rest.

It is a great quote as its funny & witty, however currently a long way from the truth in NZ or most of Europe, the US or Japan that are all indebted up to their eyeballs. In fact the leading light in regards government reserves is China a communist state, not that I'm an advocate of that.

westerly
19-06-2015, 11:11 AM
Time to reintroduce Margaret Thatcher's great quote which has turned out so true in Greece, Argentina, Venezuela...and if Labour got back in again. New Zealand.

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.”

That also applies to the US and UK both with massive overseas borrowings.

westerly

winner69
19-06-2015, 12:08 PM
EZ, your friend Jacinda just asked me for help now.

seems once you support one cause you automatically support every cause.

not that good targeted communication, just too easy

might rejoin just to see what happens, a case study in how to disengage punters.

Sgt Pepper
19-06-2015, 03:19 PM
Time to reintroduce Margaret Thatcher's great quote which has turned out so true in Greece, Argentina, Venezuela...and if Labour got back in again. New Zealand.

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.”

"Deregulation is a transfer of power from the trodden to the treading. It is unsurprising that all conservative parties claim to hate big government.”
― George Monbiot (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/167756.George_Monbiot)

ps: Are you still going to emigrate if Labour gets in? Do you have anywhere in mind?

Daytr
19-06-2015, 03:38 PM
Maybe try getting on a boat to Australia. I hear they will pay for the return voyage. :cool:

elZorro
19-06-2015, 07:16 PM
EZ, your friend Jacinda just asked me for help now.

seems once you support one cause you automatically support every cause.

not that good targeted communication, just too easy

might rejoin just to see what happens, a case study in how to disengage punters.

W69, I just sign everything they send through as long as I mildly agree with it or better, because they're able to poke the borax at the govt with these petitions. It has been helpful in generating some funds too, apparently.

The economy is on a downwards spiral, let's see Bill English get us out of this one. Maybe he'll have to come up with some policy.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11467431&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Friday+19+J une+2015

Dairy farmers have a new rule for this year, they're not buying any new capital items. They'll buy in extra feed and look after their cows when they have to, but they'll try hard to stave off other costs that can be delayed or dropped. The couriers are swooping through the provinces on their runs and not getting many pickups, printing services are quiet, advertising hoardings are not being leased, etc. It's been quiet out here for two months or more, now everyone is noticing it.

Right now would be a good time for a KiwiBuild program, some new manufacturing prospects from previous widespread R&D expenditure, but we'll have to wait for 2017 at least. Instead, just watch out for the jobs that are going to be lost in the next few months. National don't have a clue about how to grow an economy.

winner69
19-06-2015, 07:48 PM
EZ, Bill will be saved by reporting a surplus.

elZorro
20-06-2015, 08:28 AM
EZ, Bill will be saved by reporting a surplus.

Yes, W69, that would be a really amazing trick for the govt to pull off, it would involve mass sackings of state employees, I can't see any other way they could do it. Had a brief look at the Waikato Times this morning, and was smacked in the head by this article from reporter Gerald Piddock, who is writing well, from farmer perspectives. Not good news for Bill, John, or any of us out here.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/agribusiness/69484820/dairy-recovery-could-take-five-years

winner69
20-06-2015, 09:03 AM
Yes, W69, that would be a really amazing trick for the govt to pull off, it would involve mass sackings of state employees, I can't see any other way they could do it. Had a brief look at the Waikato Times this morning, and was smacked in the head by this article by Gerald Piddock, who is writing increasingly useful articles. Not good news for Bill, John, or any of us out here.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/agribusiness/69484820/dairy-recovery-could-take-five-years

Good article EZ

I always hear that farmers are resilient and manage the us and downs of the cyclic nature of it.

But then I wonder why such a problem now for dairy farmers when milk prices are not that much below the long term average. One of the perils of the recent past being seen as he norm. But debt problems maybe are only a problem for 'newish' farmers and sharemilkers who have bought farms/stock at over inflated prices doing their sums on a farm gate price of $7 plus.

elZorro
20-06-2015, 10:04 AM
Good article EZ

I always hear that farmers are resilient and manage the us and downs of the cyclic nature of it.

But then I wonder why such a problem now for dairy farmers when milk prices are not that much below the long term average. One of the perils of the recent past being seen as he norm. But debt problems maybe are only a problem for 'newish' farmers and sharemilkers who have bought farms/stock at over inflated prices doing their sums on a farm gate price of $7 plus.

Fair points W69, farmers are networking better than ever, and they are seeking out some good deals. By and large, suppliers are heeding the call. I don't know the farm land price scene very well, but from an outside observation standpoint it seems that there are always cycles, and those exiting farming for good, will try and time into one of the peaks. After that, the landowners left behind have a choice every time a new farm comes up for sale in poorer return circumstances. Do they let it go for a song, or do they keep the price 'up there'? Most of their own loans and securities are based on farm valuations, so unless there is a wholesale exit, the smaller farms that come up can be amalgamated into one of the neighbours' properties using a new bank loan, and everyone can relax for a while.

That doesn't change the situation for this dairying season: many farm and herd owners will be facing a negative income from their substantial assets base. Like any business, they'll lodge a tax loss and carry it forward, Bill won't be getting any provisional taxes from them. But all of the farm suppliers and provincial retailers won't be making much profit either, so they'll stop paying prov tax, and that'll be more noticeable.

The Reserve Bank drops the OCR, banks offering under 5% interest for 2 years, even in the face of rampant inflation in Auckland house prices? Why? Because the low dairy payout is a slow moving train wreck.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11468199&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Saturday+20 +June+2015

winner69
21-06-2015, 10:41 AM
EZ, chicane after 30 odd years at the Southland Times been made redundant. No more local cartoons for southlanders any more

Media restricting real free speech eh

Daytr
21-06-2015, 01:40 PM
Its because input costs have gone up dramatically with intensification & many have also converted dairy on marginal land that only works if getting high prices. so the exposure to the slump in prices is a lot wider & bigger than ever before. With new farmers the land values have also soared so more debt is required.


Good article EZ

I always hear that farmers are resilient and manage the us and downs of the cyclic nature of it.

But then I wonder why such a problem now for dairy farmers when milk prices are not that much below the long term average. One of the perils of the recent past being seen as he norm. But debt problems maybe are only a problem for 'newish' farmers and sharemilkers who have bought farms/stock at over inflated prices doing their sums on a farm gate price of $7 plus.

elZorro
21-06-2015, 04:02 PM
Its because input costs have gone up dramatically with intensification & many have also converted dairy on marginal land that only works if getting high prices. so the exposure to the slump in prices is a lot wider & bigger than ever before. With new farmers the land values have also soared so more debt is required.

Yes, I agree with your comments Daytr. It won't be pleasant running a dairy-linked business in the regions for the next year or two. On the bright side, maybe it will help with voter sentiment towards NZFirst and Labour, come 2017.

Daytr
21-06-2015, 06:49 PM
Yep EZ after NZFs success in Northland if I was the I'd make sure they put a strong candidate in every seat.

elZorro
22-06-2015, 06:46 AM
Yep EZ after NZFs success in Northland if I was the I'd make sure they put a strong candidate in every seat.

But they need to get the good applications in first, and that's sometimes the hard part, it's not a highly paid job for the hours, even if you get in after being selected, and the campaign itself is unpaid. They have to be very politically committed.

The Commissioner for the Environment is not happy with Landcorp.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/landcorp-wrong-convert-forestry-land-dairy-%E2%80%93-environment-commissioner-174480?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+22+J une+2015

NZ Govt about to trade in its limousines (three years is up), and since they spend an average of $28,000 on each vehicle for the rest of the public service, and the govt hasn't been living within its income for seven years, they should limit the cost to no more than say $50,000 a vehicle, and even then it should be a hydrid. We probably can't afford European styling then, can we?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/69453073/crown-looks-to-trade-in-its-luxury-limo-fleet

winner69
22-06-2015, 08:33 AM
Yes, I agree with your comments Daytr. It won't be pleasant running a dairy-linked business in the regions for the next year or two. On the bright side, maybe it will help with voter sentiment towards NZFirst and Labour, come 2017.

I wouldn't be surprised to see all these GDP numbers and things all 'revised' upwards sometime in the future.

The cynic in me says Wheeler and Government engineering a 'bail out' for Fonterra and keeping their mates with interests in the Auckland property market sweet.

Daytr
22-06-2015, 09:12 AM
National is looking to further privatize social services. This is very dangerous territory imo and should be done slowly and piece meal to see if it actually has merit. However with National's track record, no doubt they will charge in like the proverbial bull in a china shop. The restructure they did to DOC some 18 months ago a prime example and now realizing their 'partnerships' model is not working and splitting DOC in two was a mistake and much of the restructure is being reversed. At what cost?
Their social bond experiment with mental health is fraught with risk to some of the most vulnerable in society. Perhaps this is a good model? However I have my doubts and its experimental at least. So why not use it to try and tackle a looming problem for NZers like diabetes? Give these companies targets to reverse the very serious increase in diabetes in NZ, something that is going to be a massive cost in the years to come if not addressed. Instead National choose a group of people that don't have a strong voice to speak out and defend themselves. Its very similar to what the government is doing in the disability sector. Another group of vulnerable people that National have chosen to change funding models and its now particularly difficult for adults with disabilities or those coming out of 'child' status to 'adult' with a lot of uncertainty for people who in a lot of cases are extremely dependent and vulnerable.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11468828

Daytr
22-06-2015, 09:20 AM
Hmmm I can't see National openly at least interfering with Fonterra. I understand its reasonably easy for Farmers to change milk company and about 7-8% have done that in the last 5-7 years or so as independent milk processors have popped up. I assume if a lot decided to do it, it would get a lot harder due to capacity issues of other providers as Fonterra is so dominant with around 82% of the milk supply as I understand it. (happy to be corrected on that number)
Also as far as I know Fonterra doesn't have large amounts of debt or is in financial trouble, its just paying a hell of a lot less to its coop members. I have always found it difficult to understand how they can be a coop and a listed company. A bit of a conflict of interests I would have thought.
National may look to make emergency funding available to farmers or something along those lines as there is precedent for that.
I know someone who worked in Fonterra's office in Auckland in middle management and he wasn't impressed at all with the culture or the general capability of the staff.


I wouldn't be surprised to see all these GDP numbers and things all 'revised' upwards sometime in the future.

The cynic in me says Wheeler and Government engineering a 'bail out' for Fonterra and keeping their mates with interests in the Auckland property market sweet.

winner69
22-06-2015, 10:03 AM
Hmmm I can't see National openly at least interfering with Fonterra. I understand its reasonably easy for Farmers to change milk company and about 7-8% have done that in the last 5-7 years or so as independent milk processors have popped up. I assume if a lot decided to do it, it would get a lot harder due to capacity issues of other providers as Fonterra is so dominant with around 82% of the milk supply as I understand it. (happy to be corrected on that number)
Also as far as I know Fonterra doesn't have large amounts of debt or is in financial trouble, its just paying a hell of a lot less to its coop members. I have always found it difficult to understand how they can be a coop and a listed company. A bit of a conflict of interests I would have thought.
National may look to make emergency funding available to farmers or something along those lines as there is precedent for that.
I know someone who worked in Fonterra's office in Auckland in middle management and he wasn't impressed at all with the culture or the general capability of the staff.

Fonterra debt $7.5 billion v equity just over $6 billion

BlackPeter
22-06-2015, 11:17 AM
Fonterra debt $7.5 billion v equity just over $6 billion

Hi winner, maybe you should re-read their balance sheet again. It says net equity 6.4b ... this is the equity after deducting all liabilities (including the debt you are mentioning). Isn't it amazing how easy it is to make up a new rumour :p?

BlackPeter
22-06-2015, 11:20 AM
Hi winner, maybe you should re-read their balance sheet again. It says net equity 6.4b ... this is the equity after deducting all liabilities (including the debt you are mentioning). Isn't it amazing how easy it is to make up a new rumour :p?

For you convenience - here is the balance sheet: https://view.publitas.com/fonterra/fonterra-interim-report-2015/page/38-39

winner69
22-06-2015, 12:19 PM
Hi winner, maybe you should re-read their balance sheet again. It says net equity 6.4b ... this is the equity after deducting all liabilities (including the debt you are mentioning). Isn't it amazing how easy it is to make up a new rumour :p?

What's the issue BP ......what i said is correct ...don't understand what you on about at all

Total debt is $7.5 billion ....could take off the cash to make it slightly less

Yes (net) equity is as I say just over $6 billion ( as you say it is $6.4 billion)

One could say total invested capital (debt plus equity) is just under $14 billion of which more than half is debt. That's a pretty high level of indebtedness, esp for a cooperative.

Tell me where I am wrong, I don't get your point at all

Ps, I was only responding to daytr who mentioned Fonterra debt. No rumour mo gearing here ...but you seemed to get pretty grumpy with me

BlackPeter
22-06-2015, 12:54 PM
What's the issue BP ......what i said is correct ...don't understand what you on about at all

Total debt is $7.5 billion ....could take off the cash to make it slightly less

Yes (net) equity is as I say just over $6 billion ( as you say it is $6.4 billion)

One could say total invested capital (debt plus equity) is just under $14 billion of which more than half is debt. That's a pretty high level of indebtedness, esp for a cooperative.

Tell me where I am wrong, I don't get your point at all

Ps, I was only responding to daytr who mentioned Fonterra debt. No rumour mo gearing here ...but you seemed to get pretty grumpy with me

Hi winner - no stress ... your original post could easily construed as them having negative equity (but yes, it depends how you read it). I agree, their debts are higher than their net equity (i.e. liabilities to assets roughly 66%), which is quite standard for this industry (SML - 62%, PGW - 58%).

However - now that we clarified that, we probably can go back to the original purpose of this thread (which I think is to give EZ a platform to praise Labour ... ;)).

elZorro
22-06-2015, 06:11 PM
Hi winner - no stress ... your original post could easily construed as them having negative equity (but yes, it depends how you read it). I agree, their debts are higher than their net equity (i.e. liabilities to assets roughly 66%), which is quite standard for this industry (SML - 62%, PGW - 58%).

However - now that we clarified that, we probably can go back to the original purpose of this thread (which I think is to give EZ a platform to praise Labour ... ;)).

Not my problem if the National/Act cohort can't find any National policies impressive enough to talk about, BP.

I'm sure it'll come right. In about three years or less.

An opinion piece from Tuesday last week (WT, Tom O'Connor) about dairying, fairly down to it.

http://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/waikato-times/20150616/281921656675770/TextView

winner69
22-06-2015, 08:14 PM
so 95,000 voters wasted their vote on a party led by a sleazy dude who seemed to have the hots for his press secretary and maybe paid her off for her silence (maybe) ..... all from a man who stood for family values and all that

EZ, where will those voters go now - nearly 4% up for grabs

elZorro
22-06-2015, 08:57 PM
so 95,000 voters wasted their vote on a party led by a sleazy dude who seemed to have the hots for his press secretary and maybe paid her off for her silence (maybe) ..... all from a man who stood for family values and all that

EZ, where will those voters go now - nearly 4% up for grabs

I missed the news tonight, cheers. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/69601091/colin-craig-admits-inappropriate-conduct

I know where the votes should go, the "Not National" side. Although some on this thread who were poking the borax at Labour before the election, seemed to be keen on the Conservatives. This has been part of the problem for Labour. They still have good policies, good ideas, good leaders, but the perception of voters has been moved away from their brand with even better marketing, and not necessarily to National, but to the Greens or NZFirst (the Not-National vote). All through this, National achieved party votes in proportion to their campaign spend each election year. Yes, they found that they could buy votes. Colin Craig didn't manage to, that's because he doesn't have the full package. And he's not using Crosby-Textor either.

Daytr
22-06-2015, 09:12 PM
Winner, You could easily be referring to the mayor of Auckland.... ;-)


so 95,000 voters wasted their vote on a party led by a sleazy dude who seemed to have the hots for his press secretary and maybe paid her off for her silence (maybe) ..... all from a man who stood for family values and all that

EZ, where will those voters go now - nearly 4% up for grabs

winner69
23-06-2015, 02:37 AM
Interesting piece. Replace Cameron with Key and you have NZ ....and a few here agree with the gist

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/06/camerons-socialism-old/

Love that term gerontocracy - 'We are moving towards a gerontocracy, where the smartest financial move you can make is to grow old; where politicians go hoarse as they shout of their love for ‘hard-working families’, while all the time directing subsidies to families who don’t work at all.'

I have sent this to Key pointing out this 'triple lock' thing. Jeez if he did that that then Nats got itmade for good - "We are moving towards a society where parties win by offering the biggest bribes they can to elderly voters; where the taxes of the young people support the leisure of the expanding number of old people.'

But then CT have already told him this eh EZ

elZorro
23-06-2015, 07:10 AM
Interesting piece. Replace Cameron with Key and you have NZ ....and a few here agree with the gist

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/06/camerons-socialism-old/

Love that term gerontocracy - 'We are moving towards a gerontocracy, where the smartest financial move you can make is to grow old; where politicians go hoarse as they shout of their love for ‘hard-working families’, while all the time directing subsidies to families who don’t work at all.'

I have sent this to Key pointing out this 'triple lock' thing. Jeez if he did that that then Nats got itmade for good - "We are moving towards a society where parties win by offering the biggest bribes they can to elderly voters; where the taxes of the young people support the leisure of the expanding number of old people.'

But then CT have already told him this eh EZ

It's fairly obvious that National are trying for the older voter, just like Winston. Many of John's comments are aimed at them, like his most recent comments about climate change and the link to epic floods. It's not proven is it?

Don't know about you W69, but I'm trying to set up a stable ongoing income for my retirement, and the pension doesn't feature in it much. Mind you, this National govt isn't making it easy. More indications of dropping income streams into NZ from Rabobank.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11469349&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Tuesday+23+ June+2015

winner69
23-06-2015, 08:11 AM
It's fairly obvious that National are trying for the older voter, just like Winston. Many of John's comments are aimed at them, like his most recent comments about climate change and the link to epic floods. It's not proven is it?

Don't know about you W69, but I'm trying to set up a stable ongoing income for my retirement, and the pension doesn't feature in it much. Mind you, this National govt isn't making it easy. More indications of dropping income streams into NZ from Rabobank.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11469349&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Tuesday+23+ June+2015

Talk of 'capping' the use of the Super Goldcard on the buses and trains and ferries is getting the oldies up in arms.

John better listen - for a few million why bother cause a fuss and disenfranchise his voter base winston seems quite on this as well.

Nice cafe in Days Bay. I enjoy the free ride on the ferry over there. Have lunch and a nice ferry ride ack. Be better when the wife gets to go for free as well.

Take that little treat away and you won't be getting my vote John (not that I vote for him anyway)

elZorro
23-06-2015, 10:42 AM
Talk of 'capping' the use of the Super Goldcard on the buses and trains and ferries is getting the oldies up in arms.

John better listen - for a few million why bother cause a fuss and disenfranchise his voter base winston seems quite on this as well.

Nice cafe in Days Bay. I enjoy the free ride on the ferry over there. Have lunch and a nice ferry ride ack. Be better when the wife gets to go for free as well.

Take that little treat away and you won't be getting my vote John (not that I vote for him anyway)

Well, who do you vote for W69? Labour perhaps? Winston? :)

winner69
23-06-2015, 12:42 PM
Well, who do you vote for W69? Labour perhaps? Winston? :)

Last time I will admit I was one of 95,000 who voted for that sleazy character who might have got spruced by that media person

In 2017 who knows .....

craic
23-06-2015, 02:21 PM
Had a ONECARD since the beginning and used it once on an Auckland bus and maybe half a dozen times at The Mad Butcher for a small discout. no other use to me. Fly Buys usually pays for a night in a motel about once a year on trips overseas from Auckland. Farmlands gets me credit and some very good discounts. Reading the UK International Express, there is a very good article on pensions, related tax and the power of that vote. Winston will have to come up with something fairly spectacular to make gains. I haven't heard much from his electorate? Is he actually achieving anything up there?

winner69
23-06-2015, 04:32 PM
Hi winner - no stress ... your original post could easily construed as them having negative equity (but yes, it depends how you read it). I agree, their debts are higher than their net equity (i.e. liabilities to assets roughly 66%), which is quite standard for this industry (SML - 62%, PGW - 58%).

However - now that we clarified that, we probably can go back to the original purpose of this thread (which I think is to give EZ a platform to praise Labour ... ;)).

We were discussing debt/borrowings and equity

Fonterra debt/(debt + equity) about 54%

PGW same ratio 27%

Confirm both dont have negative equity

Couldn't be bothered looking up Synlait ratio

Hmm

elZorro
23-06-2015, 05:56 PM
Last time I will admit I was one of 95,000 who voted for that sleazy character who might have got spruced by that media person

In 2017 who knows .....

Did you mean spurned W69? In any case your vote direction is interesting. I'll have to have a look at their policies.

But no wonder you've been looking for Labour's point of difference, since. They might not be flashy, but they do have good solid policies, and they know how to run the govt books and get people employed. I'm trying to get them to pick up their marketing in a small way, but haven't been making much headway so far. It seems to be a big slow-moving animal, the Labour Party.

winner69
23-06-2015, 08:29 PM
I've thrown a few bucks behind James Shaw for doing this. Good on him

http://bigsleepout.org.nz/page/jamesshaw

If one comes to this part of the world I'd do it ......even if to remember the nights I slept rough at the Basin Reserve when I was young ....because of the state I was in and lost my bearings. Was middle of summer though

elZorro
23-06-2015, 08:58 PM
I've thrown a few bucks behind James Shaw for doing this. Good on him

http://bigsleepout.org.nz/page/jamesshaw

If one comes to this part of the world I'd do it ......even if to remember the nights I slept rough at the Basin Reserve when I was young ....because of the state I was in and lost my bearings. Was middle of summer though

Nights? you mean you didn't learn the lesson the first night? :)

Another way of getting somewhere with homeless people (not all of them of course) is to have more manufacturing-type jobs available, and better minimum pay standards. Plus more budget accommodation in cities. Requires govt policy changes though, not under National.

NZ farmer gloom prominent in this survey, the lowest result in a decade.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11470000&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Wednesday+2 4+June+2015

It probably doesn't help dairy farmers here, when they know that American dairy farmers will have a federal topup available for each pound of milkfat produced, if the normal return doesn't provide a profit over the average cost of production. They are guaranteed a profit on production, as long as they are at or below the set average production cost for USA.

winner69
25-06-2015, 08:09 AM
Love Greenpeace action today .....and this response says it all

That Parliament place sure is a special place eh


David Seymour
@ dbseymour
Greenpeace show their arrogance and conceit, breaking into parliament to promote solar panels. pic.twitter.com/QIY2AzrUkX

craic
25-06-2015, 09:54 AM
It wasn't the Greens - just a Labour party advance commando unit - trying to find a way into Parliment when the public were not looking.

winner69
25-06-2015, 10:05 AM
It wasn't the Greens - just a Labour party advance commando unit - trying to find a way into Parliment when the public were not looking.

The direct approach didn't work when Arden tried to get into parliament by driving his tractor up the front steps

winner69
25-06-2015, 04:20 PM
EZ, Annette sent me this to send to Key. I obliged

XXXXX, did you see One News last night? They reported that companies set to profit from the government’s privatisation of social services, like mental health services and truancy, are Australian banks. They even set up a “Dragon’s Den” style panel to help them pick the winners!
And it gets worse, XXXXX – it’s been revealed that the government’s own advisors warned the outcome of social bonds could include “poor quality” and “ineffective” services and the risk organisations could “cherry pick” the profitable cases at the expense of others in need.
The Government is using the most vulnerable New Zealanders as guinea pigs for their social bonds experiment.

But if enough of us sign the open letter against this proposal, the government will have to choose between listening to us, the people they’re elected to represent and their own officials, or listening to Australian banks looking for a profit from vital social services.


EZ, I sent it. But just sending emails to John is not the answer ...we are not REAL people anyway

What is labour actually doing, real. Stuff, to stop this sort of carry on.

Remember what I told what neoliberalism is Neo-liberalism is - "just a bunch of powerful people doing things in their own self interest.” Surely this is proof.

elZorro
25-06-2015, 06:11 PM
EZ, Annette sent me this to send to Key. I obliged

XXXXX, did you see One News last night? They reported that companies set to profit from the government’s privatisation of social services, like mental health services and truancy, are Australian banks. They even set up a “Dragon’s Den” style panel to help them pick the winners!
And it gets worse, XXXXX – it’s been revealed that the government’s own advisors warned the outcome of social bonds could include “poor quality” and “ineffective” services and the risk organisations could “cherry pick” the profitable cases at the expense of others in need.
The Government is using the most vulnerable New Zealanders as guinea pigs for their social bonds experiment.

But if enough of us sign the open letter against this proposal, the government will have to choose between listening to us, the people they’re elected to represent and their own officials, or listening to Australian banks looking for a profit from vital social services.


EZ, I sent it. But just sending emails to John is not the answer ...we are not REAL people anyway

What is labour actually doing, real. Stuff, to stop this sort of carry on.

Remember what I told what neoliberalism is Neo-liberalism is - "just a bunch of powerful people doing things in their own self interest.” Surely this is proof.

W69, at least you are becoming more than a little outraged. This is not the NZ we want to live in, it looked a lot better when Labour held office.

Labour and the Greens tried to hold 'Murray McScurrillous' to account today, but he was saved by the National-MP chairman of the select committee and then didn't turn up to the house in the afternoon.

westerly
25-06-2015, 06:19 PM
W69, at least you are becoming more than a little outraged. This is not the NZ we want to live in, it looked a lot better when Labour held office.

Labour and the Greens tried to hold 'Murray McScurrillous' to account today, but he was saved by the National-MP chairman of the select committee and then didn't turn up to the house in the afternoon.

Liam Hehir advised the Labour Party to refrain from using the phrase "neo liberalisim"
What you would expect from a National Party activist.
John Key must have a smile on his face as the Conservative party self distructs allowing the neo liberal policies of his Govt. to proceed while media attention is all over Colin Craig.
From housing to social bonds, from screwing down hospital board expenditure to reducing taxation,to reducing Govt. services, the National govt. continues on it's way.
Australia,Singapore,Canada have all acted to prevent. Chinese money pushing up house prices,
New Zealand cannot upset the Chinese and does nothing . Maybe it's the free trade agreement.?
Al Labour needs to do to win the next election is to get back to it's roots and start looking after the ordinary working family. Forget about low taxation ,hit the greedy, and that includes superannuates with incomes in the 6 figure brackets.

westerly

winner69
25-06-2015, 07:30 PM
EZ (and maybe westerly), you'll enjoy this from Robert Reich. He is talking my language.

Reich was Labour Secretary under Clinton. Since before the GFC he really anti banks and big money. Some of his solutions these days are bit weird but generally he talking my language. If wanting something to read his books are worthwhile

Any way this from his blog -
http://robertreich.org/

MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL: GET BIG MONEY OUT OF POLITICS

Over the past two months, the videos I’ve done with MoveOn.org have detailed several ways to make the economy work for the many, not the few: raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, making public higher education free, busting up the big banks, expanding Social Security, making polluters pay, raising the estate tax, strengthening unions, ending corporate welfare, helping families succeed economically, and letting all Americans buy into Medicare.

But none of these is possible if we don’t get big money out of politics.

In fact, nothing we need to do as a nation is possible unless we limit the political power of the moneyed interests.

EZ, sure you have empathy with most of this, esp the last part of his post not above saying what needs to be done about funding politics. Would Labour be brave enough to be this strong ....or are they really an insider as well with self interests of prime importance.

elZorro
25-06-2015, 09:12 PM
EZ (and maybe westerly), you'll enjoy this from Robert Reich. He is talking my language.

Reich was Labour Secretary under Clinton. Since before the GFC he really anti banks and big money. Some of his solutions these days are bit weird but generally he talking my language. If wanting something to read his books are worthwhile

Any way this from his blog -
http://robertreich.org/

MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL: GET BIG MONEY OUT OF POLITICS

Over the past two months, the videos I’ve done with MoveOn.org have detailed several ways to make the economy work for the many, not the few: raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, making public higher education free, busting up the big banks, expanding Social Security, making polluters pay, raising the estate tax, strengthening unions, ending corporate welfare, helping families succeed economically, and letting all Americans buy into Medicare.

But none of these is possible if we don’t get big money out of politics.

In fact, nothing we need to do as a nation is possible unless we limit the political power of the moneyed interests.

EZ, sure you have empathy with most of this, esp the last part of his post not above saying what needs to be done about funding politics. Would Labour be brave enough to be this strong ....or are they really an insider as well with self interests of prime importance.

I would like to see Labour being funded by small amounts from a whole lot of people, and so not needing to go to large corporates at all for campaign funds. That just gets awkward. But they do need to compete for marketing of their message with National's big boys, and it's a different message. Policies like KiwiBuild tell you that.

Sgt Pepper
25-06-2015, 09:47 PM
I was watching the news tonight regarding Murray McCully approving the purchase of an $ 11million apartment for the NZ Ambassador to the UN. One of the rationales was its proximity to the UN and that it was to be a working area as well. I went on to google, identified the location of the New Zealand Consulate General (Maddison Avenue NYC) and the NZ Legation to the UN( Third Avenue NYC. I ran their address on a taxifare calculator for New York City. The cost of a cab from the Madison Avenue address to the UN was US $18.00 distance was 3.2 miles and traveling time 13 minutes, from the Third Avenue legation was US 15.00, 2.7 miles and 10 minutes travelling time.
So perhaps Murray should have pushed back and not approved this gross waste of our money?

777
26-06-2015, 07:03 AM
When has investing in property a gross waste of money?

craic
26-06-2015, 07:14 AM
And how much did they get from the sale of the old apartment? And the three hundred and twenty seven good sound reasons for having accommodation apart from the Embassy?

Daytr
26-06-2015, 07:34 AM
Hi Craic, we are getting far better representation in Northland than we were under National/Sabin that's for sure.
What ever happened to that guy Sabin??? :-)
The latest & in tune with Peters by-election campaign of value add, he has called for a moratorium on the mining of swamp kauri.
An industry that is a disgrace, ripping up wetlands with little overview & flouting the flimsy current law by a putting a few scribbles on a log & claiming its a finished product. Every time Winston opens his mouth in parliament he's a reminder to National of their humbling defeat in the Northland by-election. Its very possible that NZF holds the balance of power in 2017 & the more Key lets Winston get under his skin, the less likely they will ever do a coalition deal. I just hope Labour can get its act together & become a substantial opposition between now & then.

I would have thought NZF will be the biggest beneficiaries from the implosion of the Conservative party, them & ACT, followed by National.



Had a ONECARD since the beginning and used it once on an Auckland bus and maybe half a dozen times at The Mad Butcher for a small discout. no other use to me. Fly Buys usually pays for a night in a motel about once a year on trips overseas from Auckland. Farmlands gets me credit and some very good discounts. Reading the UK International Express, there is a very good article on pensions, related tax and the power of that vote. Winston will have to come up with something fairly spectacular to make gains. I haven't heard much from his electorate? Is he actually achieving anything up there?

westerly
26-06-2015, 12:50 PM
[QUOTE=winner69;578090]EZ (and maybe westerly), you'll enjoy this from Robert Reich. He is talking my language.

Reich was Labour Secretary under Clinton. Since before the GFC he really anti banks and big money. Some of his solutions these days are bit weird but generally he talking my language. If wanting something to read his books are worthwhile

Interesting views, tend to agree. Big money means big power though.


westerly

Major von Tempsky
26-06-2015, 04:43 PM
Reich shows a gross ignorance of economics. For example raising the minimum wage too far (i.e. more than inflation) has a number of effects, none of them good. (a) it stops teenagers getting their first job, learning to budget, to organize themselves, to get work experience (b) it puts some businesses out of existence e.g. fast food operators (c) it means that some services and goods would no longer be available in NZ (d) for some families (including immigrants) who rely on 1 or more members making a contribution from minimum wage jobs they are reduced to welfare if theses jobs are no longer there (e) students who rely on these jobs can no longer work their way through courses part time (f) it may make it uneconomic for employers to offer apprenticeship jobs to the detriment of a skilled workforce and future growth.
Now all these points have been rehearsed here before - what's the matter with you guys? memories like a sieve or unable to understand simple economics?

Sgt Pepper
26-06-2015, 06:14 PM
Reich shows a gross ignorance of economics. For example raising the minimum wage too far (i.e. more than inflation) has a number of effects, none of them good. (a) it stops teenagers getting their first job, learning to budget, to organize themselves, to get work experience (b) it puts some businesses out of existence e.g. fast food operators (c) it means that some services and goods would no longer be available in NZ (d) for some families (including immigrants) who rely on 1 or more members making a contribution from minimum wage jobs they are reduced to welfare if theses jobs are no longer there (e) students who rely on these jobs can no longer work their way through courses part time (f) it may make it uneconomic for employers to offer apprenticeship jobs to the detriment of a skilled workforce and future growth.
Now all these points have been rehearsed here before - what's the matter with you guys? memories like a sieve or unable to understand simple economics?

Major

Do you think there should be any legislated minimum wage at all?

Daytr
26-06-2015, 07:42 PM
I would suggest these are cliqued reasons to not raise the minimum wage. What evidence is their of your first point a) ? What goods & services do your refer to in c) ?
The problem with the minimum wage in NZ is that it is basically at subsistence levels where it leaves a huge portion of the nation that can't get ahead.
With rising rents in the likes of Auckland particularly & rising electricity prices across the country year after year how is the minimum wage keeping up with the cost of living.
MVT being someone so au fait with economics you will understand the multiplier effect & if the minimum wage was raised in NZ it is likely to create far more jobs through share consumption than would be lost. An extra couple of dollars per hour makes a huge difference to low income earners. Australia seems to manage to do it, in fact it attracts our young people as they know they can actually earn a reasonable income doing the menial job they would be doing here.


Reich shows a gross ignorance of economics. For example raising the minimum wage too far (i.e. more than inflation) has a number of effects, none of them good. (a) it stops teenagers getting their first job, learning to budget, to organize themselves, to get work experience (b) it puts some businesses out of existence e.g. fast food operators (c) it means that some services and goods would no longer be available in NZ (d) for some families (including immigrants) who rely on 1 or more members making a contribution from minimum wage jobs they are reduced to welfare if theses jobs are no longer there (e) students who rely on these jobs can no longer work their way through courses part time (f) it may make it uneconomic for employers to offer apprenticeship jobs to the detriment of a skilled workforce and future growth.
Now all these points have been rehearsed here before - what's the matter with you guys? memories like a sieve or unable to understand simple economics?

elZorro
28-06-2015, 09:01 PM
Reich shows a gross ignorance of economics. For example raising the minimum wage too far (i.e. more than inflation) has a number of effects, none of them good. (a) it stops teenagers getting their first job, learning to budget, to organize themselves, to get work experience (b) it puts some businesses out of existence e.g. fast food operators (c) it means that some services and goods would no longer be available in NZ (d) for some families (including immigrants) who rely on 1 or more members making a contribution from minimum wage jobs they are reduced to welfare if theses jobs are no longer there (e) students who rely on these jobs can no longer work their way through courses part time (f) it may make it uneconomic for employers to offer apprenticeship jobs to the detriment of a skilled workforce and future growth.
Now all these points have been rehearsed here before - what's the matter with you guys? memories like a sieve or unable to understand simple economics?

MVT, employers are already able to offer a percentage of the adult minimum wage to teenagers. When Labour tried to install a flat minimum wage, employers responded crudely by swapping younger workers for more experienced staff, still paying the lowest possible wage. Your argument isn't very good if the minimum wage means that working part-time people don't have much left over after transport costs, child-minding costs are taken out. The apprentice schemes have been let go over the years, it's harder and harder for school leavers to get one. Nat Govt policy hasn't helped there.

A truly organised govt would guide businesses into profitable new areas, they would ensure a stronger economy so that when minimum wages were moved higher, there would be enough profit to allow that to occur, without job losses. Ideally, new jobs would actually appear as more cash was put into circulation.

BlackPeter
28-06-2015, 09:11 PM
MVT, employers are already able to offer a percentage of the adult minimum wage to teenagers. When Labour tried to install a flat minimum wage, employers responded crudely by swapping younger workers for more experienced staff, still paying the lowest possible wage. Your argument isn't very good if the minimum wage means that working part-time people don't have much left over after transport costs, child-minding costs are taken out. The apprentice schemes have been let go over the years, it's harder and harder for school leavers to get one. Nat Govt policy hasn't helped there.

A truly organised govt would guide businesses into profitable new areas, they would ensure a stronger economy so that when minimum wages were moved higher, there would be enough profit to allow that to occur, without job losses. Ideally, new jobs would actually appear as more cash was put into circulation.

Lol - you mean something like Greece, do you? Government made sure they get great wages (in their heydays some of the best in Europe), early retirement and a hard left government run by academics. Paradise ... I guess just fair that others have to mop up the mess

elZorro
29-06-2015, 06:54 AM
Lol - you mean something like Greece, do you? Government made sure they get great wages (in their heydays some of the best in Europe), early retirement and a hard left government run by academics. Paradise ... I guess just fair that others have to mop up the mess

I don't know much about the Greek situation, but a very low tax base didn't help the money-go-round.

Over here this morning, John Key was trying valiantly to make a few situations look normal:

400 NZ state houses bought with taxpayer money and housing the most vulnerable in many cases, could end up Australian owned, as no NZ social housing providers have the capital base or nerve to complete a firesale of this size.

Enrolments in the Kiwisaver programme have halved since the $1000 kickstart was dropped by a mean govt.

They could have funded all this, and more, if they'd resumed putting cash into the Cullen fund shortly after the GFC.

If they keep going the way they are, there will be no Crown assets left, no income streams except taxes and levies. And yet their main reason for existing seems to be - to reduce the tax burden on the already well-off.

macduffy
29-06-2015, 07:23 AM
They could have funded all this, and more, if they'd resumed putting cash into the Cullen fund shortly after the GFC.


I'm afraid you lost me at this point, eZ. At this early stage of its life, the Cullen fund is another expense for the govt, not a source of funding for current govt expenditure. The purpose is to help fund national super into the future.

elZorro
29-06-2015, 07:35 AM
I'm afraid you lost me at this point, eZ. At this early stage of its life, the Cullen fund is another expense for the govt, not a source of funding for current govt expenditure. The purpose is to help fund national super into the future.

My mistake, absolutely correct Macduffy, it's an asset, not an income stream at this point.

I was scratching around for examples I think. MBIE was also in the news today, and while I thought they'd implode from a lack of funds, the ministry which seems synonymous with Steven Joyce, has been spending big.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/exclusive-ministry-24k-fridge-pays-staff-three-times-average-6348469?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+29+J une+2015

Daytr
29-06-2015, 08:09 AM
BP, very long bow you are drawing there. What EZ is relaying has no comparison to the Greek situation.
The closest thing to the Greek tragedy is National increasing debt by multiples and Key lying to the nation on multiple occasions, just as the Greek government did to Europe re their budget deficit.
You opened the door... :-)


Lol - you mean something like Greece, do you? Government made sure they get great wages (in their heydays some of the best in Europe), early retirement and a hard left government run by academics. Paradise ... I guess just fair that others have to mop up the mess

Daytr
29-06-2015, 08:18 AM
Macduffy, I would argue that the expense was already there as in there is a growing liability to fund retirements that has been under funded for some time (decdes). We cannot keep putting this off, it needs to be the responsibility of all governments, otherwise it just makes the problem bigger & harder down the track. Pension funding is a major problem around the Western world & Japan due to the same short termism we are seeing from Key's National government. Reform is required, however is political suicide for any party. It would be nice to see people thin king of the greater good for a change & that those who don't need a pension don't get one. I would like even to see a voluntary scheme where people can opt out of the pension.


I'm afraid you lost me at this point, eZ. At this early stage of its life, the Cullen fund is another expense for the govt, not a source of funding for current govt expenditure. The purpose is to help fund national super into the future.

macduffy
29-06-2015, 08:40 AM
No argument there, Daytr. Just that, as eZ acknowledges, keeping up the funding of the scheme at this point wouldn't help the country pay for other current outgoings. Sooner or later we are going to have to face up to the problem of a growing expenditure on national super for a growing retired cohort, politics notwithstanding.

BlackPeter
29-06-2015, 09:05 AM
BP, very long bow you are drawing there. What EZ is relaying has no comparison to the Greek situation.
The closest thing to the Greek tragedy is National increasing debt by multiples and Key lying to the nation on multiple occasions, just as the Greek government did to Europe re their budget deficit.
You opened the door... :-)

Greeks national debt level being at current something like 175% of GDP, New Zealand's debt level something like 35% of GDP. So yes - National increased our debt levels (and there have been some good and probably some not as good reasons for it), but I think they still have some headroom to go ...

Anyway - we might have similar view's on the integrity of our beloved PM, but not sure whether he stacks up that bad compared to some of the (as well so called Honorable) left politicians I could think of. It is dirty politics everywhere, no matter into which direction you look.

And hey - I never said that the National government is good for NZ - I just believe that it is less damaging than a backwards looking Left government would be (given the current line up of Left parties and politicians).

Daytr
29-06-2015, 09:29 AM
Yea but lets not use that headroom huh & its a closer Greek scenario than the one you tried to draw. ;-)
And where is the plan to pay it off? Or will that be left up to a newly elected government.... again .
I would say Key stacks up better than many in his own party as well, not that is saying much, (pull ponytail), but he's the one that selects them as his cabinet, even if he does sin-bin them once & awhile.
Remind me. What committee did Mike Sabin chair just before he disappeared off the political scene?

elZorro
29-06-2015, 05:57 PM
From NZResources today, as we wait to see what happens with the Greek banking crisis:


29/6/2015 — General
Low dairy exports hit May quarter figures
By Simon Hartley
A halving of dairy exports has contributed to the 4.7% or $214 million decline of total goods exported to $4.4 billion for May, compared to a year ago.
However, the trade balance between exports against imports in May - respectively $4.36 B and $4.01 B - left a $350 M trade surplus.
This, said Statistics New Zealand (SNZ), was ahead of most expectations and the fifth month in a row of surpluses.
SNZ international statistics manager Jason Attewell said at dairy's peak it made up two-fifths of total goods exports, but for May they accounted for one-fifth of total goods exported.
“Milk powder, butter, and cheese exports led the fall, down 28%, or $346 M,” Attewell said.
The decline in milk powder, butter, and cheese exports was led by whole milk powder, down 37%, with quantities down 6.9%, and while whole milk powder export values to China have been low compared with last year, values to other countries remained “fairly stable.”
Fruit exports rose $107 M to $445 M in May, the highest monthly value ever.
Goods imports fell $300 M, or 7%, to $4 B in May, intermediate goods fell $259 M, led by crude oil, capital goods fell $80 M, while consumption goods rose $4.8 M.
For the year ended May, the annual goods trade deficit was $2.6 B.
ASB rural economist Nathan Penny said the headline balance, of a $350 M surplus, was ahead of both ASB's and market forecasts.
“Most of the surprise was due to lower import values relative to expectations,” he said.
On a seasonally adjusted basis, dairy exports posted a small 0.3% monthly gain, reflecting the earlier and temporary strength of February prices. Nathan Penny noted the fortnightly global dairy auction prices did not come through in trade data until three months later.
Westpac senior economist Michael Gordon said the $350 M surplus was $100 M ahead of his expectations, and the market's expectations of a deficit.
“This was actually an improvement on the $246 M surplus recorded in May last year.
Consequently, the annual trade balance improved for the first time in nine months,'' Gordon said.
He said excluding fuel, imports were down 2.6%, with a particularly sharp drop in imports of capital equipment.
“This is not a positive sign for the economy's near-term growth prospects,” he said.
Gordon reiterated that weakness in business investment was a factor in the weak gross domestic product data, earlier this month, covering the March quarter.
*Simon Hartley is senior business reporter and assistant chief reporter for the Otago Daily Times.




Tradies might still be busy in Auckland and Christchurch, indirectly boosting an impression of busy-ness in other cities, but capital items are not being imported as heavily as they were. Our population is expanding but exports are dropping in value, and we have an annual trade deficit as per usual.

macduffy
29-06-2015, 07:42 PM
......... and look, the sky's falling!

;)

winner69
29-06-2015, 07:58 PM
......... and look, the sky's falling!

;)

just for you macduffy .... don't think the young ones will get it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRLXp3R7uZY