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Daytr
16-08-2015, 08:33 AM
National showing their arrogance again. A party that dismisses the electorates concerns is in trouble.
Clark's Labour did the same in their 3rd term and National in theirs is delivering the same cliché

Tim Grosser dismissing protesters around the country as either serial protesters or protesters that oppose every trade deal.
I am certainly not a serial protester & have never protested against a trade deal before.
However the TPPA is a 'Free' Trade deal only in name. A better term might be a corporate takeover.

And then there is Key when asked in parliament what benefit NZ secured by paying the Saudi businessman $4M in cash.
He avoided the question yet again by saying it was all Labour's fault.
Labour did not force them to doctor invoices or pay an individual off, National did this all on their own.
Key doesn't seem to be in a great mood judging by the vision of him several times at the rugby last night.
A great occasion that would have brought a smile to any Kiwi punter, but he looked like he was attending a funeral not a great All Black performance.

craic
16-08-2015, 11:22 AM
Why offend the Australians by grinning like a Cheshire cat when they are getting flayed? And if that lot wasn't rent-a-mob then I don't know what is. A few thousand for the whole of new Zealand. Even Labour got more votes than that in the last election. Cameras couldn't find a prominent face - only their mothers would have recognised any of them.

BlackPeter
16-08-2015, 11:46 AM
National showing their arrogance again. A party that dismisses the electorates concerns is in trouble.
Clark's Labour did the same in their 3rd term and National in theirs is delivering the same cliché



daytr, as well all know - power corrupts - and neither National nor Labour are immune against this effect. The difference is - when Clark was in her 3rd term, there was a capable opposition standing by to take over the reigns (and they did). So far I can't see the handover back happening next time ... even if Labour would get the numbers (and that's not what the recent polls are saying). Question - do you really think that a coalition between Labour, Green, New Zealand First and Maori Party and Mana could work? Really?

I guess - just look at Labour, even these handful of people are not able to properly support their duly elected leader. How do you think it would go if you add the diverging ideas and ambitions of Greens, Mana, Maori - and Winston ...? All supporting one Leader and one political direction?

Obviously - great stuff for a political comedy, but not necessarily for running a country ... other than downhill.

Daytr
16-08-2015, 11:50 AM
Because they are Aussies Craic! ;-)


Why offend the Australians by grinning like a Cheshire cat when they are getting flayed? And if that lot wasn't rent-a-mob then I don't know what is. A few thousand for the whole of new Zealand. Even Labour got more votes than that in the last election. Cameras couldn't find a prominent face - only their mothers would have recognised any of them.

Daytr
16-08-2015, 11:55 AM
Not sure BP if a coalition of that magnitude would be required.
Perhaps NZF & Labour could pull enough votes on their own.
The regions are Nationals stronghold & could be NZFs best point of success.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Maori party swing in behind Labour & NZF as you suggest.
The Greens I would like to think could, but they are too stubborn in my view & also may struggle with Peters let alone Labour.
Agree the opposition is not as strong as it should be, particularly Labour, and that is a concern if you are like me & don't want a 4th term for National.

BlackPeter
16-08-2015, 02:04 PM
Not sure BP if a coalition of that magnitude would be required.
Perhaps NZF & Labour could pull enough votes on their own.
The regions are Nationals stronghold & could be NZFs best point of success.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Maori party swing in behind Labour & NZF as you suggest.
The Greens I would like to think could, but they are too stubborn in my view & also may struggle with Peters let alone Labour.
Agree the opposition is not as strong as it should be, particularly Labour, and that is a concern if you are like me & don't want a 4th term for National.

not so sure about your scenario ...

Labour had last time 25% and does not a lot currently to improve their rating in any way - hardly remember when I heard Little speaking last time - was it defending Labour on the "Chinese sounding names"? Is he on a long winter holiday or already preparing for his next job?

NZF had last time around 9% ... and I agree, as it currently looks (with Conservatives disintegrated) they are likely to get more votes next time. Lets assume they get half of the conservatives vote - this would give them 11%.

Haven't heard a lot from the Greens recently - but given that they so far seem to be hellbent to stay in their far left corner, do I not see how they could get any centrist votes - i.e. anything they could gain would go off Labours vote.

Agree that Greens and Peters are an unlikely mix ... and actually not sure about Maori Party and Peters (but more likely than Green IMHO). So lets add up: Labour (25) plus NZF (11) plus Maori (was it 3?) ... less than 40%.

Not sure, where you would see the remaining votes?

I don't think that Peters could get much further than into the early teens (percentage-wise;)) ... he is just too controversial - and from a personal perspective ... while I applaud his dedication in uncovering the winebox scandal (more than 20 years ago) - I would (and will) not vote for anybody who likes to attract votes by pulling the race card pre-election, even if he can be (if he manages to get into government) quite pragmatic ... not achieving a lot but happy to polish his baubles. Lets face it - Winston is normally entertaining and at times a useful opposition politician, but not quite as useful in government

Yes, there have been times when Labour (well - Helen Clark) pulled off results in the low 40'ies, but this was at times when Labour stood behind their leader ... and when they didn't try to fight with the Greens for the most Leftist position. I am not saying it is impossible for them to get back at least into the mid 30'ies ... but whom in Labour would you see to perform this act?

The other thing to consider is that Winston wants to conclude his political career with a knighthood ... and the only way to get that is when he works together with National. There might be a chance to get rid of John Key, but not sure whether I would see any meaningful stakes for the next government not being led by National.

Not sure - whether this is what I want ... but at least at the moment I would think that it would continue to be the least damaging option for the country - given the alternatives I can see at the moment (though Nationals slide into corruption is a concern). And yes - a stronger (and more centrist) Labour party would be good. As always indicated ... a democracy needs a strong and viable opposition to keep the government honest. Labour at the moment does very little to earn their keep in that (or any other) regard.

Daytr
16-08-2015, 02:30 PM
I suppose that's where we differ (among others) is that I think National is very damaging to NZs future.
In the last Colmar Brunton Poll Labour was at 32% If they can get that to the late 30s then it is game on.
40%+ and its a game changer.
NZF I think could get 12-15% if they target the regions.
I'm being optimistic but I think its quite possible.
Little isn't the greatest orator, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't make a good PM.
Too much sway is given to persona rather than governance.
Its amasing that Peters hasn't been knighted already, perhaps its difficult to do when they are still active.
I think he wants to sign off on his career as PM, perhaps with a deal with Labour to hand over the reigns at the halfway point.
Re the Greens, you obviously haven't been listening as James Shaw has been quite vocal re the TPPA, also the Greens have been raising a lot of questions in regards Sheepgate.

elZorro
17-08-2015, 05:56 AM
BP, this is going to be a tiresome argument between now and the 2017 election. No-one can know for sure what will happen, but commonsense will say that a centre left coalition outcome will be better than having National/Act/United/Maori parties in power, going on their track record.

Here's Steven Joyce going on the record about there being no recession ahead. Not sure if he's qualified to give an opinion.


17/8/2015 — General
Joyce cools recession talk

Economic Development Minister Steven Joyce said yesterday that a technical recession in the next two quarters was unlikely.
He told TV One’s Q+A programme that New Zealand will have a slowdown in economic growth to around the 2.5% mark and “no recession unless somebody across the world falls completely out of bed, and that’s always a risk.”
He had been asked by the television presenter whether there was going to be enough to stop New Zealand having a technical recession in the next six months.
Joyce said he believed there was no obvious issue, despite the fact there was a lot of fragility in the world.
The Minister said he had gone back and looked at the four previous recessions in NZ.
“What’s the difference between those and the situation that we are in today? And the reality is the world economy is still growing 3% or 4%,” he said.

Daytr
17-08-2015, 10:05 AM
Hard night ? Or is Key feeling the pressure of facing up to one scandal or stuff up after another.
Or perhaps it's because he just hasn't been able to scratch that itch, or rather tug a poor young woman's ponytail in a while ?
Check out the bags under those eyes! He would give Mike Moore a run for his money!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11498346&ref=NZH_FBpage

craic
17-08-2015, 10:13 AM
See some Labour members at the rent a mob marches including our local Napier bloke. He is stupid enough to risk his seat in an electorate that is pro the deal through or export fruit etc when he only won the last one because Garth McVicar who is well known and popular locally took six or seven thousand votes for the Conservatives. Haven't seen "Marty Feldman" peeping over the parapets recently? Must be on a survival course somewhere.

Daytr
17-08-2015, 10:25 AM
Craic, what do you think the TPPA will gain for NZ?
Do you really think Aussie will suddenly allow NZ apples in?
Canada & the US will cut their dairy & other agricultural subsidies?
The only thing we know for sure right now is that under the TPPA it will cost the government more to fund Pharmac as patents on drugs are extended.\

BlackPeter
17-08-2015, 10:27 AM
Interesting findings in the latest KPMG report about Foreign Direct investment (FDI) in New Zealand:

http://www.kpmg.com/NZ/en/IssuesAndInsights/ArticlesPublications/Press-releases/Pages/Foreign-Direct-Investment-NZ-trends-insights.aspx


Approximately 59% of FDI continues to come from North America, Australia and Europe. Asia accounted for 33% of total investment.
China’s share of investment has not increased substantially from our previous analysis in 2013. Where investments have occurred they have focused primarily on dairy and real estate development.
Canada was New Zealand’s most significant source of FDI accounting for 22% based on gross consideration data. China accounted for 14%, USA 13% and Australia 11%.
The United States is the largest acquirer of land for the 2013-2014 period, followed by China and the Netherlands.
The largest 20 transactions for 2013 and 2014 account for approx. 64% of the total reported overseas investment.


So I guess if we follow Labour's racist rants than we now need to be really weary of people with European, North American (specifically Canadian) and Australian surnames. Be careful - particularly if they call themselves names like (e.g.) "Little" (UK / European - sounding) or Twyford (same crowd), People with names like these are not just snapping up property from hardworking Kiwis, they might as well make up stories and don't hesitate to pull the race card.

Shame on Labour.

Daytr
17-08-2015, 11:59 AM
Five things that are very wrong about your post BP.
1) Labour wasn't being racist, but it was poorly done.
3) They didn't make anything up, it was data, simple as that, data from within the industry I might add.
2) The figures you quote don't include residential housing, so your statement is about as poorly done as Labour's was.
4) Labour and NZF don't care if its the Chinese, Japanese or Canadians, as they aren't racist. They just don't want NZ gobbled up by the massive economic might of offshore buyers.
5) Foreign investment in business is supported by both Labour and NZF, they both just don't think we have to sell our land to do it, which unsurprisingly is how most countries view it as well.

Houses in NZs biggest city that houses 1/3rd of the population is getting unaffordable for the average New Zealand citizen let alone the average Aucklander and only you and the very right wing mob can justify how that is a good thing for the country.
I expect the Australian percentage to increase substantially if National get their way in regards social housing.

craic
17-08-2015, 12:34 PM
Daytr, pray tell me were there no overseas investments in NZ going on during Labours term in office and if there were, what did they put in place to stop it? Maybe Labour are following their old pattern of flogging the opposition on almost every issue, including the problems that they themselves didn't solve and then coming into office and not doing much anyway. Do you honestly think that if they were as true and honest and good as you seem to think that they would still be fighting to avoid relegation to third place in the public eye after all these years.? As to the apples, the exports are new record levels and we would have difficulty spplying Aussies anyway.

Daytr
17-08-2015, 12:54 PM
Craic, of course there was and as I said foreign investment in business is welcomed by Labour & NZF for that matter.
Its land ownership that's the problem. I'm not sure if Labour did anything at the time, they may have, as I wasn't living in NZ I wouldn't hazard a comment. The comment I am making is that it is a problem in housing in Auckland right now and there is a very real potential problem with our farms getting picked up whilst vulnerable. So instead of siting idle and the typical John Key response is that nothing is a problem, do something about it & make it meaningful, not just gathering data to confirm the bleedin obvious.

Love them apples ! Aussie apples are far inferior as well, so it's them that are missing out.
But anyway from what I can tell, you are saying we don't need the TPPA as we are doing just fine without it.
And I agree. ;-)

Sgt Pepper
17-08-2015, 01:21 PM
See some Labour members at the rent a mob marches including our local Napier bloke. He is stupid enough to risk his seat in an electorate that is pro the deal through or export fruit etc when he only won the last one because Garth McVicar who is well known and popular locally took six or seven thousand votes for the Conservatives. Haven't seen "Marty Feldman" peeping over the parapets recently? Must be on a survival course somewhere.

Ok so Napier returning to National is a given then??

Aaron
17-08-2015, 01:51 PM
So I guess if we follow Labour's racist rants than we now need to be really weary of people with European, North American (specifically Canadian) and Australian surnames. Be careful - particularly if they call themselves names like (e.g.) "Little" (UK / European - sounding) or Twyford (same crowd), People with names like these are not just snapping up property from hardworking Kiwis, they might as well make up stories and don't hesitate to pull the race card.
Shame on Labour.
I guess your as thick as Susan Devoy if you can't tell the difference between racism and xenophobia. Labour stopped a Canadian Pension Fund from buying up the Auckland Airport in the not so distant past. We know where National would have stood on that one. Would we be better off if all the growth and dividends from AIA were going to a Canadian Pension Fund over these last years... I suspect not. Is NZ better off by having foreigners buying up existing assets rather than investing in new industries? That depends on whether you own the assets for sale or not.

Anyway just saw this article and thought it was funny. Nothing new here, I stopped listening to Mike Hosking a long time ago. very entertaining but certainly more of an opinion piece man than an objective journalist. Is he genuinely intelligent or just opinionated. I have never bothered to search his history. I assume he must be pretty bright. certainly quick witted.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/71179822/opposition-political-leaders-accusing-mike-hosking-of-political-bias

Daytr
17-08-2015, 02:25 PM
Hosking is obviously intelligent, he just has no objectivity which I would have thought is a fairly key component of any journalist.
He is just a propaganda tool of the Nats. Campbell wouldn't play ball so he got binned.
This is what NZ has come down to under Key.
If he doesn't like something get his mates to deal with it, including the media.
Very dangerous times.
Even the Flag debate that he has orchestrated Key was telling everyone that the silver fern should be reflected in a new flag, this is days before the final 40 were selected. Has he never heard of undue influence. Like Hosking he doesn't know where to draw the line in regards what is right & wrong.
Pulling ponytails & bullying women, very wrong.
Paying off Saudi Businessmen, very wrong, and probably illegal.
Doctoring invoices to cover up pay offs to said Saudi Businessman. very wrong and probably fraud.
Appointing a Minister as Chair of the Law & Order committee whilst he is under investigation from the police. Very wrong & shows poor judgment.
I could go on & on.
Key has no moral compass & Mike Hosking supports that as long as everyone gets more.
Well they don't, the only ones that do are the already well off.

Aaron
17-08-2015, 04:18 PM
He is just a propaganda tool of the Nats. Campbell wouldn't play ball so he got binned.
This is what NZ has come down to under Key.
If he doesn't like something get his mates to deal with it, including the media.
Very dangerous times.
A large leap into a conspiracy theory there Daytr. I imagine John Key is a nice enough bloke. I suspect he is not all powerful and his power will remain while he can buy votes through national super giveaways and promised tax cuts. His political ideology might tend to favour the well off, that could be why Mike Hosking is considered right leaning I imagine he gets paid well and has a few assets. Shows being cut from TV would probably reflect their cost and the number of viewers they attract. People get what they watch and what they vote for. Nothing too sinister about that, although I feel a sense of frustration that policies such as capital gains tax, raising the age of eligibility for national super, making retirement saving compulsory etc etc would have all been good for NZ as a country but more painful for the individual more painful than the status quo with honest John anyway.

Aaron
17-08-2015, 04:24 PM
Hosking is obviously intelligent, he just has no objectivity which I would have thought is a fairly key component of any journalist.
I would have thought the likes of Mike Hosking, Paul Henry and even John Campbell would be thought of more as entertainers than journalists.

BlackPeter
17-08-2015, 05:38 PM
I guess your as thick as Susan Devoy if you can't tell the difference between racism and xenophobia.

I can - Aaron. Not sure about Susan Devoy, but the real question is - can you, too?

If a caucasian guy goes through a list of names, picks the ones which sound Chinese and complains that there are too many of them, than the behaviour of this caucasian guy is racist. However - this does not exclude him being xenophobic (literally - "fearing foreigners", but in this context more "disliking or having a prejudice against foreigners") as well ... aren't our Labour MP's a multi skilled bunch :p?

Daytr
17-08-2015, 06:31 PM
Aaron, Mike Hosking calls himself a journalist, but I agree the title is dubious. Henry the same. At least Campbell did a substantial amount of investigative reporting. Ask yourself who is the boss of TV3, Key's right hand man on a number of occasions Mark Whelan, so its not such a leap as you suggest.

neopoleII
17-08-2015, 06:43 PM
""I would have thought the likes of Mike Hosking, Paul Henry and even John Campbell would be thought of more as entertainers than journalists. ""

The sad part of this statement is that there are alot of people in NZ that think journalists ... especially in prime time news hour.... are very informed
political truth Sayers. The fact is, in our modern world of information dissemination, the masses of sheeples in NZ and for that matter the world, get
there biased / unbiased / informed / uninformed / true / untrue / factual / imaginary "news" from where they spend their one hour a day getting informed.
And this is where the media has gone from a news service in years gone by to..... political "interlopers" today.
And sadly most people dont know what is hitting them.
This is an issue for left and right wing voters and all those in between or outside of the center.

When media personalities cause left / right wing disharmony you know there is a problem.
In the old days it was called government propaganda....
In this age its called news......
Who controls the media?

Daytr
17-08-2015, 06:48 PM
Yep fair comment Neopole, and everyone has a bias, although Mike Hosking I would say is extremely biased.
Another thought, how many lefties do you know own media empires?

neopoleII
17-08-2015, 07:04 PM
""Another thought, how many lefties do you know own media empires?""

Im not sure what Murdocks leaning is ... but he seems to be taking an active media role in taking western politics on a joy ride
that is making waves in this country and many others.... as are other media moguls.

Either way.... political direction should not be controlled or influenced by the media.

One of the founding principals of our western society is free speech..... but when "big media" overtly make political waves for whatever reason........
then that is wrong.
Or at the very least..... they should disclose their leaning and say, why they say, what they say.
An informed society with honest facts... not skewed facts is far more healthy for all societies.

Daytr
17-08-2015, 07:25 PM
Its a nice thought, but I think unfortunately they are entwined in many cases, politics bending to the media & visa versa.
Fox news probably gives you a good indication of Murdoch's political allegiance, although I'm sure he will pander to the party in power at the time.

777
17-08-2015, 07:39 PM
Of course Hosking leans to the right, he is a positive thinker. To lean to the left you have to be negative. That simply is the difference in NZ politics and shows up quite clearly in this thread.

elZorro
17-08-2015, 07:51 PM
Of course Hosking leans to the right, he is a positive thinker. To lean to the left you have to be negative. That simply is the difference in NZ politics and shows up quite clearly in this thread.

I don't think that's right, 777. I think perhaps if you lean to the right hard enough, you need to suspend a certain amount of inspection of data.

Take Q&A this weekend, Steven Joyce carefully stated, twice, that international debt for NZ is well lower (http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/no-recession-next-two-quarters-joyce-177236), now, than it was five years ago. Really? Trading Economics says that's not correct. Look at the chart on the MAX setting. It's higher now, than it was, and it's likely to get worse. So in fact, the trend is going the other way from the situation Steven Joyce was implying. So if you believe him, you've got no-one else to blame if you don't check the figures. The sod just lied, to all of us.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/external-debt

The myth around Steven Joyce. (http://werewolf.co.nz/2015/03/the-myth-of-steven-joyce/) A legend in his own mind.

Daytr
17-08-2015, 08:02 PM
Quite ludicrous.
Just because people critique doesn't mean they are negative, it means they want better which is positive in itself.


Of course Hosking leans to the right, he is a positive thinker. To lean to the left you have to be negative. That simply is the difference in NZ politics and shows up quite clearly in this thread.

Aaron
17-08-2015, 09:00 PM
I can - Aaron. Not sure about Susan Devoy, but the real question is - can you, too?

If a caucasian guy goes through a list of names, picks the ones which sound Chinese and complains that there are too many of them, than the behaviour of this caucasian guy is racist. However - this does not exclude him being xenophobic (literally - "fearing foreigners", but in this context more "disliking or having a prejudice against foreigners") as well ... aren't our Labour MP's a multi skilled bunch :p?
Depends if you think foreign ownership of NZ land is an issue. Doesn't matter if they are asian or white and english speaking. I guess the simplistic list was the easiest way to try and confirm what was being said anecdotally about foreign asian buyers driving the housing market. Anyone who says they are not racist is a liar.

elZorro
17-08-2015, 09:20 PM
Depends if you think foreign ownership of NZ land is an issue. Doesn't matter if they are asian or white and english speaking. I guess the simplistic list was the easiest way to try and confirm what was being said anecdotally about foreign asian buyers driving the housing market. Anyone who says they are not racist is a liar.

Aaron, let's turn it around. As there is no foreign buyer register at the moment, and you only have fragmented and limited real estate data to go on, how would you begin to try and find out if any countries of origin have an effect on existing house sales in NZ? If you looked at european buyer names, but they didn't appear to be out of proportion with domestic population metrics, wouldn't you move on to other countries of origin if they were reasonably discernible, and see what the pattern was there? Labour makes no apology for wanting to ensure that NZ domiciled people (working here, have NZ residency, or born here) get a chance to buy their first home from existing housing stock. These people could be Chinese born, they could be from anywhere. The argument is the same. Labour want to protect the interests of these people, not overseas speculators.

craic
17-08-2015, 10:29 PM
Then why did they fail to do it in their last term - or the one before? Sticking pins in a John Key doll for not doing what they failed to do does not impress voters or win elections - Have a look at the current situation - JK is there because he got the most votes and all Labour can hope for is a mickey mouse coalition led by them. Where's their leader?

Daytr
18-08-2015, 06:02 AM
Craig, Labour got the most votes to win their 3rd term as well. ;-)
Like Labour, National are suffering from 3rd termism highlighted by arrogance.
Such a cliché.

iceman
18-08-2015, 06:34 AM
Aaron, let's turn it around. As there is no foreign buyer register at the moment, and you only have fragmented and limited real estate data to go on, how would you begin to try and find out if any countries of origin have an effect on existing house sales in NZ?

Could be done by requiring IRD numbers or equivalent from your home country if not a NZ tax resident, when property is bought, which is what the Government is doing. Simple really and should have been done a long time ago. My wife has just bought a house in one of the Nordic countries but needed to apply for an ID number and provide personal information before she could. Perfectly understandable and acceptable.

elZorro
18-08-2015, 06:40 AM
Then why did they fail to do it in their last term - or the one before? Sticking pins in a John Key doll for not doing what they failed to do does not impress voters or win elections - Have a look at the current situation - JK is there because he got the most votes and all Labour can hope for is a mickey mouse coalition led by them. Where's their leader?

Andrew Little has just finished a good stint on TV1 news, again making some good points, like the OIO should be required to check up on the follow-through investments in new jobs and infrastructure that overseas buyers say they are going to bring to NZ. Labour are also pinning National to the ropes over the watered-down workplace health and safety bill changes. Nearly half of all deaths in the workplace occur in businesses with under 20 staff. Businesses like farms, forestry. It's not a big cost to appoint a health and safety officer from staff in smaller businesses, but it is a mindset change for some people. The type of people who spit the dummy over wearing a safely helmet on a quad bike, and we've all met someone like that.

In any case, National have removed this bill from discussion today, probably because the numbers are against them. Either from within, or people like United's Peter Dunne are holding out.

So who says Labour are not doing the job of being an effective opposition?

craic
18-08-2015, 07:53 AM
When I purchased this small block of land twenty-three years ago, I had to gain some sort of authority because I am not a NZ national. The fact that I had been living here since 1960 and married to a NZ citizen since 1964 probably counted but a law was in place at that time and probably still exists. As to safety, I purchased a skid-lid of the type worn by skaters and others a few days ago and I wear it all the time on the hill. Not concerned about falling branches or pine cones but I am older than most and statistics show that falls are a common factor in my age group. The rest of my body is fine and gets knocked about all the time.

BlackPeter
18-08-2015, 08:55 AM
Interesting snippet form todays "Free press":


In a snap debate on the continuing woes of Solid Energy the Greens Gareth Hughes stood up like a nun lamenting a closed abortion clinic. The MP who tweeted “Fantastic news. The end of coal for power is nigh” on Thursday 6th August had this to say on Thursday 13th: “ I would like to start by saying that the Greens’ sentiments and our thoughts are with the workers, their families, and the communities on the West Coast and in Huntly.”

So - he is over the moon for Solid Energy loosing their business - but a week later he commiserates the workers losing their jobs? What a liar and hypocrite.

Daytr
18-08-2015, 10:03 AM
He is neither a liar or a hypocrite and its a very simplistic and derogatory statement to make.
I wonder if you would say it to his face? As neither are true.
Are you really suggesting that the celebration of less coal mining an destruction of the atmosphere is also celebrating the loss of jobs related to it?
If you can't differentiate between the two, then perhaps watch your step as people with only one eye open tend to trip up.
Why don't we just keep digging up more coal and burn it until the whole of the planet suffers?
Even the US is cutting coal out of its power plants. Look at the job losses at Peabody owned mines in Australia & elsewhere.
Its an unfortunate consequence of trying to save the planet from ourselves.



Interesting snippet form todays "Free press":



So - he is over the moon for Solid Energy loosing their business - but a week later he commiserates the workers losing their jobs? What a liar and hypocrite.

BlackPeter
18-08-2015, 12:44 PM
He is neither a liar or a hypocrite and its a very simplistic and derogatory statement to make.
I wonder if you would say it to his face? As neither are true.


Ouch - so if my statements are not true than you are calling me a liar?

How would you call somebody who is celebrating your company to crash but than (for quite obvious reasons) commiserates the job losses. Daytr, I do not really care what you think, but I am sure the people at the coast will remember the Green "schadenfreude" over their job losses - and so they should.



If you can't differentiate between the two, then perhaps watch your step as people with only one eye open tend to trip up.


Interesting observation ... I presume you talk from experience :p

Look daytr, there seem to be some topics where we both agree on - and there are clearly many where we do have a different point of view. And that's all it is - just a different viewing angle, we often even might describe the same thing - just from a different angle.

If you don't know what I am talking - hold a coin in front of you face and describe what you see (head or tail). Then ask a friend - (do you have friends?) to sit opposite to you and ask what they see. I am sure it is different. Who is right and who is wrong?

I don't mind a robust discussion about the issues (and, given that this is a political thread - about the politicians creating them), but you have a quite nasty habit of calling everything outside your own quite narrow point of view "wrong" and attacking other posters who don't share your believe system.

Ah well - that's how religions managed to suppress the masses for many centuries, but still - feels sad that humanity didn't yet manage to take the next step. Suit yourself.

Daytr
18-08-2015, 02:28 PM
The fundamental difference is that he wasn't celebrating the company falling over, but that less coal will be being mined.
If Solid Energy had retained all its workers by generating renewable energy for instance I'm sure he would be celebrating a great result all round.
The company falling over and less coal being mined are two quite different things, but in this case unfortunately related.
Its similar to celebrating the end of a war, you aren't celebrating the death & its destruction caused, but its end.
I think any reasonable person can see that he wasn't celebrating the loss of jobs.
But if you are comfortable calling him a liar, then that's your bag.
I'm not calling you one at all, but its not a fair and reasonable statement that you made and that is where we strongly differ in opinion on this.

Daytr
18-08-2015, 03:18 PM
I see Winston Peters has secured another major coup for Northland.
Northland College is to get a $14M upgrade.
Pity it took a years of neglect under National before anything was done.
The police described the school as a perfect practice area for training in a ghetto environment!
Good on ya Winnie.

craic
18-08-2015, 03:36 PM
How? The same way he secured the Ranfurly Shield from HB at the weekend?

Daytr
18-08-2015, 03:54 PM
Well Craic, if you elected an NZF MP, they just might! ;-)
HB is my ITM cup along with Northland, so its good to see their success.
But to answer your question, he helped draw attention to the issue as any good MP should.

westerly
18-08-2015, 06:32 PM
""I would have thought the likes of Mike Hosking, Paul Henry and even John Campbell would be thought of more as entertainers than journalists. ""

The sad part of this statement is that there are alot of people in NZ that think journalists ... especially in prime time news hour.... are very informed
political truth Sayers. The fact is, in our modern world of information dissemination, the masses of sheeples in NZ and for that matter the world, get
there biased / unbiased / informed / uninformed / true / untrue / factual / imaginary "news" from where they spend their one hour a day getting informed.
And this is where the media has gone from a news service in years gone by to..... political "interlopers" today.
And sadly most people dont know what is hitting them.
This is an issue for left and right wing voters and all those in between or outside of the center.

When media personalities cause left / right wing disharmony you know there is a problem.
In the old days it was called government propaganda....
In this age its called news......
Who controls the media?

Have to agree with all you have written.
Hoskings, Henry, Duncan Garner, Mike Yardley and others with multiple media positions all have far too much influence on public opinion. If they want to be radio hosts or tv presenters or newspaper columnists fair enough but to combine all three is giving them far too much room to push their own opinions. All would be elected as Mps if they stood simply on the basis of being famous for being well known.
As for the newspapers, no wonder they are struggling to survive given their lack of content relying more and more on facebook, columnists, and the net for content. Where have all the real journalists gone?

westerly

Daytr
18-08-2015, 08:26 PM
I saw these quotes from JFK recently and they are quite apt in regards what is going on with the TPPA.
"A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people."
and
"The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. "

Smart man that JFK and one of the great orators of the 20th century.
A pity someone with similar initials doesn't follow his lead...

elZorro
18-08-2015, 09:16 PM
Daytr, did you see this cartoon?

Of course McCully is still in the news (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1508/S00583/auditor-general-to-probe-saudi-model-farm-deal.htm?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Wednesday+1 9+August+2015), with John Key still backing the actions taken by a minister who has been involved in these types of deals before. He's got all the answers, has Murray.

The latest Colmar Brunton poll from early July shows a reducing support for National, and more people pessimistic about the economy going forward, than optimistic. This was a sharp change, which the govt felt they needed to do something about. Hence the feel-good press opportunities. This will go on, until morale improves.

http://www.colmarbrunton.co.nz/index.php/polls-and-surveys/political-polls/one-news-colmar-brunton-poll

At least the GDT auction showed a bit of a bounce overnight. But as we've seen, there are now some major international forces working to take the cream off any future boom in dairy prices. The cat is out of the bag.

Daytr
19-08-2015, 07:52 AM
National making headlines again this morning for all the wrong reasons.
Sheepgate will finally be investigated by the Auditor General. It will be interesting if Key starts backing away from McCully.
Key has shown again & again poor judgment. McCully represents NZ on the world stage as Minister of Foreign Affairs and representing NZ on the Security Council. Was he Key's man because he knew he was malleable & moral compass is erratic to say the least?
This is a guy who was sacked as Minister of Tourism years ago for similar dodgy behavior. He has form.
So Key is either naïve, which I doubt or he wanted someone who would do his bidding no mater how dubious & perhaps illegal the action maybe.

And now we may have more asset sales, this time from Landcorp. Who is going to be the main buyers of these stupid dairy conversions?
Overseas buyers that's who.
So lets get this straight. These farms have been converted to dairy and money was borrowed to do this and now of course they are a drain on government coffers. State houses coming up soon, power companies before. So why is Government debt still rising?
A new government is going to inherit a record debt level and when I say record, probably triple or quadruple the amount of debt and significantly less assets.
If they were a company the banks would be shutting them down and share holders would be turfing out the board.
National claim to be the best financial managers.
All they have proved is they can borrow 10s of billions and sell stuff that actually generates income.
If this was Labour they would be ranting every day about spiraling debt and selling the kitchen sink.
Oh sorry that is clearly what National are doing.
Get em out in 2017.

Daytr
19-08-2015, 08:25 AM
Is it just me or has the quality of the NZ Herald on line deteriorated dramatically in the last 6 months or so.
It seems more like the Sun in London than supposedly NZs premier daily.
This sponsored content crap gets my goat as well.
Stuff seems like a better option to me for general news. Any other reasonable options?
I see they have been struggling financially, so I suppose I should put my viewing support there to help them get advertising revenue.


Have to agree with all you have written.
Hoskings, Henry, Duncan Garner, Mike Yardley and others with multiple media positions all have far too much influence on public opinion. If they want to be radio hosts or tv presenters or newspaper columnists fair enough but to combine all three is giving them far too much room to push their own opinions. All would be elected as Mps if they stood simply on the basis of being famous for being well known.
As for the newspapers, no wonder they are struggling to survive given their lack of content relying more and more on facebook, columnists, and the net for content. Where have all the real journalists gone?

westerly

craic
19-08-2015, 08:32 AM
Oh Dear! How sad! dairy price goes up 19% , just when the left thought they were home and hosed. Now what I would expect as a voter is a list of the assets, particularly land that Labour and its cohabitants will buy back when they are elected and how soon they will do it. And how they will stuff up the trade relationship with Saudi Arabia, as they did last time. Maybe if we got some more reality from them about their plans for the future they might just get a few of their lost voters back - some, but probably not enough to affect the status quo.

Daytr
19-08-2015, 08:51 AM
Craic, National extended the ban on live sheep exports & rightly so.
So are you saying National are wrong & they should have resumed live exports?
After all that is what they promised to do, but then they broke that promise as they realized that most NZers are against this cruel activity.

Great to see the dairy price up dramatically, although 19% up off a low base is around 80c or about the equivalent of a 10% of what the price was at its lofty highs. Still good news though. In saying that Fonterra held product off market, which was a god thing to try although can't be done on a long term basis. I find it bizarre they hadn't restricted supply to the market a bit earlier.

As an ex commodity trader, most commodities get to oversold levels at some point & have short covering rallies. This was a prime example. What also typically happens is after the healthy clear out, the trend resumes. We may though have finally found a technical floor in the global price, well at least for a while.

elZorro
20-08-2015, 06:25 AM
Good point Daytr, possibly a floor on the GDT prices, but where to from here, is the interesting bit that dairy farmers would like to know.

Landcorp has been in the news all week (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1508/S00565/landcorp-board-in-talks-with-ministers-over-debt-levels-pm.htm), and perhaps helped by a growing realisation that nothing is certain in the dairy world, the govt is talking with them about their big ongoing plans near Taupo. This is something of a joint venture on the old Fletcher Forests area.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/dairy/69646296/landcorp-to-stick-with-waikato-dairy-conversions

These new farms look OK from the road, but we're swapping one monoculture (Pinus Radiata) for another (Rye/Clover crop mostly). Even through the recent dairy boom, Landcorp, with its big variety of farm operations, struggled to earn a decent ROI (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/agribusiness/10424524/Landcorp-doubles-profit).

Here's a pdf of the 2014 annual report (http://www.landcorp.co.nz/sites/default/files/pdfs/Landcorp_Annual_Report_2014.pdf), where it states the asset base is 1.748billion, from which it earned a profit of $30mill, and from that paid a dividend to govt of $7mill. ROI is 1.7%. Nearly 700 staff running 137 farms, and average dividend of just $51,000 per farm in a good year for dairy.

It seems certain to me that they'll have to post a loss over the next year, unless meat/wool returns strengthen. If Landcorp is just a bigger version of a typical cross-section of farming operations, it's saying that these are not highly profitable operations overall, but maybe a long-term game is being played.

macduffy
20-08-2015, 07:31 AM
Not unlike a lot of NZ farmers, eZ. Low cash returns, farming for the capital gains. Unfortunately, it's not that easy for Landcorp which has the complication of treaty claims against many of the farms; a training role for the industry; the "national interest" - however you like to define it! - to also consider.

Daytr
20-08-2015, 07:36 AM
Well a lot of that land was put into forestry for a reason EZ. Its generally not great land in regards fertility I understand. There are also real concerns for the waterways in regards leaching of nutrients and chemicals into waterways. Not all government assets are their to make money or make a substantial return, although dairy conversion was obviously a flawed idea. If we placed more of an economic value on conservation or combating climate change by planting trees and what that would add in regards preserving land for native species etc we wouldn't then be looking to sell the land. And that doesn't mean it needs to be pine plantations either, but it could be perhaps planted in natives if the soil suits. Large manuka plantations with hives could be an option. Contract out the beekeeping. I'm sure there could be other applications as well and even native tree harvesting if done sustainably. Not everything in government needs to make a return within an election cycle, it could be planted for future generations.

craic
20-08-2015, 09:03 AM
Growing trees for profit, now or in the future has been subject to massive research and development in this country. When I was undergrowing training at the FTC in Rotorua I remember a lank of Radiata, mounted on the wall. It was three or four metres long and had no knots or other defects and was a great curiosity. It would now be considered the norm as that species has been developed beyond belief. Other species were also studied including all the natives but economically, it just doesn't stack up. Eucalyptus species were promote 2-3 decades ago for fuel. The line was to sow four small blocks of E. Saligna or E. Botroides on a farm. After 4 years the first block is cut for firewood and successive blocks every year and in the fifth year block one will have coppiced and can be cut etc., I didn't work. I am cutting some of mine over twenty years later. The sale value of the wood is about $80 -$150 per tree or much less for pulp. And a big problem is that the species is notoriously unpredictable. Plant a row of identical seedling in a uniform soil and some will thrive and take off and others just sit there.

Daytr
20-08-2015, 09:08 AM
The swamp kauri pillaging in Northland has finally been quantified with exports soaring 2500% in the last six years according to the NZH.
This while the MPI was asleep or purposely allowing swamp kauri miners to flout the law around exports of this ancient resource.
Its a disgrace that the MPI allowed this activity to continue with massive slabs and logs being exported under the guise that they were a finished product.
Let alone the destruction of important wetlands and the NRC has culpability in this regard as I understand it comes under their jurisdiction.
This is an incredibly valuable & finite resource that needs to be managed like any mineral resource and needs to have a similar process wrapped around it like any mine would. I'm not against swamp kauri exploitation, however it needs to be managed far better than it is now & the MPI needs to enforce the current flimsy laws and NZ needs to ensure we are making the most of the resource by following the intent of the law and exporting only finished products, which would obviously create jobs in the north.

Daytr
20-08-2015, 09:16 AM
Well that's just it Craic, do they need to be grown for profit? If we valued our environment we get a different sort of profit by planting natives. Its an environmental profit and would help offset our emissions. Perhaps they can be harvested in 50 years and replaced sustainably. The 'profit doesn't need to be immediate, or don't harvest at all and actually create a beautiful native forested area. Pest fence the areas, make them a haven for native birds such as Kiwi. Honey is obviously one product that could be harvested sustainably and again also adds to the environment. I'm not saying pines or other plantations are a bad idea either, but there are numerous alternatives to dairy conversion and selling the land that could benefit our environment and perhaps get a return in the future.


Growing trees for profit, now or in the future has been subject to massive research and development in this country. When I was undergrowing training at the FTC in Rotorua I remember a lank of Radiata, mounted on the wall. It was three or four metres long and had no knots or other defects and was a great curiosity. It would now be considered the norm as that species has been developed beyond belief. Other species were also studied including all the natives but economically, it just doesn't stack up. Eucalyptus species were promote 2-3 decades ago for fuel. The line was to sow four small blocks of E. Saligna or E. Botroides on a farm. After 4 years the first block is cut for firewood and successive blocks every year and in the fifth year block one will have coppiced and can be cut etc., I didn't work. I am cutting some of mine over twenty years later. The sale value of the wood is about $80 -$150 per tree or much less for pulp. And a big problem is that the species is notoriously unpredictable. Plant a row of identical seedling in a uniform soil and some will thrive and take off and others just sit there.

BlackPeter
20-08-2015, 04:02 PM
Latest Roy-Morgan poll is out (taken in the first 2 weeks of August):

Labour down 5 points to 27%, Greens down 2 points to 11%, National back above 50%.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/labour-takes-five-point-hit-roy-morgan-poll-after-chinese-buyers-gambit-b-177476

Maybe time for Labour to come up with something positive?

Major von Tempsky
20-08-2015, 05:15 PM
Whoopee!
Aha! I'm told I have to lengthen that reply by the Bot in charge of posting - I am very very extremely pleased by that excellent result (let's see if that is acceptable :-) )

elZorro
20-08-2015, 06:57 PM
By their own admission, Roy-Morgan polls are more volatile than other polls. The sample size is under 1,000, which suggests an error of +/_ 3% or so, but that's unstated. They also use random calling to landlines, whereas Colmar-Brunton make sure the correct proportion of rural and urban land lines are polled. You could argue that, these days, a big proportion of homes don't have a landline in use.

I'd like to see the next polls, when the public start to show an understanding of the state of the economy. I was talking to a couple of WINZ people today, they're preparing for a bit of an added influx of clients. Uni, schools and polytechs will be out soon, too.

elZorro
21-08-2015, 06:41 AM
John Luxton on the TPP.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1508/S00733/tpp-deal-to-free-up-dairy-trade-would-reduce-volatility.htm?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Friday+21+A ugust+2015

One analyst's view on our economy.

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/news/2015/8/20/australian-news/nz-may-be-headed-recession-cs?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Friday+21+A ugust+2015

craic
21-08-2015, 08:32 AM
Sorry, el Z. Try as you might, you can't make a sows ear out of a silk purse - unless, of course, You're a Labour Party Government.

elZorro
21-08-2015, 10:29 AM
Sorry, el Z. Try as you might, you can't make a sows ear out of a silk purse - unless, of course, You're a Labour Party Government.

Craic, I could make my setup look fairly flash if I just borrowed heaps against previous hard-won capital gains, but like many others outside the dairying sector for the last few years, I didn't feel the timing was good. Some dairying people are now starting to feel the pinch, and although this govt can borrow a lot more from future taxpayers without looking too out of step with the rest of the world, they cannot even balance their own books without doing that, unlike the Labour govt that preceeded them.

This borrowing has enabled them to massage their publications and marketing, massage the press, stupify the public and voters. All the standard charts from Stats NZ show the damage to the general economy from National's policies, compared to Labour's terms. Big business in the private sector is probably going fine. Who else is?

Major von Tempsky
21-08-2015, 10:31 AM
Who's defending Roy Morgan? No-one! From the moment they carpet bagged in from Australia only a few years ago their results have favoured Labour more than any other poll!

My advice to you EZ, is the old rugby chant when a team won and some one eyed scribe bagged it for winning ugly....Look at the scoreboard! Look at the scoreboard!

And I see in the UK where the left has been busy engineering the leader vote, that the moderate Labour MPs (who are in the vast majority) say they will depose Corbyn as soon as the House meets afterwards! And Corbyn is now busy telling more fibs....that he never met a Moslem leader!

winner69
21-08-2015, 10:58 AM
Who's defending Roy Morgan? No-one! From the moment they carpet bagged in from Australia only a few years ago their results have favoured Labour more than any other poll!

My advice to you EZ, is the old rugby chant when a team won and some one eyed scribe bagged it for winning ugly....Look at the scoreboard! Look at the scoreboard!

And I see in the UK where the left has been busy engineering the leader vote, that the moderate Labour MPs (who are in the vast majority) say they will depose Corbyn as soon as the House meets afterwards! And Corbyn is now busy telling more fibs....that he never met a Moslem leader!

Hey MVT - Corbyn a fan of the Levellers ideas - John Lilburne way back in the 17th century

Seems there may be a bit of this in NZ Labour as well

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/20/levellers-corbynmania-jeremy-corbyn?CMP=share_btn_tw

craic
21-08-2015, 12:38 PM
Have a look at the headline in Hawkes Bay Today - bottom of the Herald front page - Everything is booming here, and Aucklanders pushing up the house prices. Try as you might you can't stop the flow And all the Labour halos are in the minds of their disciples.

Jay
21-08-2015, 02:14 PM
A retired family friend has just bought down your way, had been living in the UK virtually cost free (except for entertainment travel expenses etc). She sold up before she went as she did not know how long she would be away and her investments back here obviously did not keep up with Auckland house prices, hence the move to your city craic. Bought a reasonable 3 bedroom home, with a bit of change left over.
Could be down that way with the family over Xmas to stay!

Major von Tempsky
21-08-2015, 04:38 PM
The best/only time to read The Guardian - they did have an interesting article recently that Kazakhstan had left Putin's orbit which I hadn't realized - is after the Left has lost a General Election. Then they are all busy twisting and turning and biting each other. Never read The Guardian so much as since the last General Election in the UK :-)

winner69
21-08-2015, 07:23 PM
The best/only time to read The Guardian - they did have an interesting article recently that Kazakhstan had left Putin's orbit which I hadn't realized - is after the Left has lost a General Election. Then they are all busy twisting and turning and biting each other. Never read The Guardian so much as since the last General Election in the UK :-)

Labour a mess over there eh MVT

Amazing how much influence that guy Blair (thinks he) has

Labour NZ still don't appear to have agreed amongst themselves what they stand for yet. And its only 24 months to the next election

craic
22-08-2015, 08:08 AM
The influx of a zillion refugees will waltz the right of British politics into power. Will have the same effect in other European countries.

artemis
22-08-2015, 10:50 AM
The influx of a zillion refugees will waltz the right of British politics into power. Will have the same effect in other European countries.

That issue is definitely getting a lot of air time in the UK, none of it positive. They are not refugees unless confirmed as such, though. They are illegal migrants until then. Looks like migrants from Syria are getting priority treatment in Europe.

Daytr
22-08-2015, 11:19 AM
Its a very difficult situation & the worst refugee crisis in Europe since WWII. And quite a lot of the problem can be laid at the feet of the US, raging an illegal war in Iraq. The Syrian thing is ugly and the world just stands by. Nothing easy as a solution, but I don't think standing by is right either.
The unfortunate consequence in Europe is a rise in Nationalism and I hope this isn't something anyone on this thread is advocating as a positive.
I would suggest a lot of these people are genuine refugees fleeing terror and there are many more in place like Turkey as well. Their homes have been overrun either by their own military or other militia forces, to be honest its hard to keep track who is fighting who. All very sad. Places like NZ took in many refugees post WWII as did other countries around the world and people literally did just walk in & turn up to build a new life. We have a UN and I would much rather see the UN security council with NZs involvement concentrating on these sort of issues, rather than the one up-manship against the likes of Russia. We live in a very inhumane world, building fences around our wealth, fearful of the desperate who are looking for safety and a new life.

craic
22-08-2015, 02:12 PM
Well its easy to blame the Americans for everything and considering poor Russia the victim of rhetoric - all it tells me is that the writer is hard left. It doesn't alter the fact that resentment in Britain and other places will grow exponentially, particularly amongst the unemployed and lower classes who are pushed back by 'foreigners" I won't be there and my offspring in that area are well insulated against any effect. How about we shift twenty or thirty thousand to Auckland as a humanitarian gesture? They could sign an agreement to live without complaint in one of the many state houses that are empty for some reason.

Daytr
22-08-2015, 09:06 PM
Well Craic, I don't blame the Americans for everything, but they are to blame for two wars in Iraq and have meddled in the Mid/East for years. I'm hardly hard left, I voted for NZF for gawds sake, a party in the right. I don't like Putin, but I don't like the hypocrisy of the US when dealing with Russia either. Last I looked by the way Russia wasn't communist anymore either. Resentment in Britain of what exactly? What do they resent? I get a hard time on here for not wanting an ever expanding population in NZ or selling our land to foreign buyers. But here are people who really are in need and they should be treated humanely. Or does the right only want wealthy immigrants? Its not really NZs problem, but we do have a responsibility as a nation to take in refugees and we do, but we probably could take more than the 1,000 or so a year that we do now. And they wont be able to live in State houses because National will have sold them to the Aussies or whoever else they can find around the world to buy them.

craic
22-08-2015, 09:54 PM
If you want to know of the resentment in Britain, go and live there for a while. I am an Irishman of the republican bent and I have close relatives who are Russian. If it was not for the Americans we would be speaking Japanese or German now. Trying to blame them for everything appears to be a jealous response. We rely on them fully for our defence and protection. Any one of a dozen tin-pot countries in this region could over-run this country in five minutes.

Daytr
23-08-2015, 09:05 AM
Haha, how am I blaming them for everything. I like the US, visited many times and considered living there at one stage.
However they have a lot of blood on their hands post WWII and they are a long way from being blameless.
I also blame them for infecting the world with the Kardashians and reality TV. LOL
I don't doubt that there is some resentment in the UK from some, there was also a resentment in the UK by some against Indians & Pakistanis, Polish & the Irish as I remember, probably other groups as well. Some of my Irish mates used to get abused regularly just for being young, smart up & coming Irishmen.
However what I struggle to understand is WHAT they actually resent?
Compassion? Humanity?
It is a difficult issue & I'm not suggesting that all or even a high proportion of the problem lies at Britain's feet, far from it.
But its an issue none the less & needs to dealt with and humanely by the whole of Europe & also the US needs to put their hand up as they have created a reasonable portion of this mess.
What's your solution?
If you send them back, some of them have lost their homes and perhaps will be killed or rounded up to fight, women raped.
Children indoctrinated. Generally these people have left for a valid reason, their home is being torn apart by civil war, something the US should perhaps
recognize. So either their home needs to be made safe so they can return or they need to be accepted as refugees of war in my opinion.

Daytr
23-08-2015, 10:57 AM
Back to things more domestic.
National's latest stuff ups & the list gets longer each week as their mismanagement is a continuous litany of epic proportions.
Work Safe laws where livestock farming will not be included as a dangerous industry, whereas worm farming, mini golf and lavender production is!
Michael Woodhouse didn't even know these industries were classed as dangerous. Do these guys even read their own bills!?
The measure of a dangerous industry is 25 deaths per 100,000 workers and or 25 per 1,000 workers suffer a serious injury.
I have worked for companies with over 100,000 employees and if they had anything like 25 deaths or 2,500 serious injuries per annum there would people refusing to work, effectively going on strike. Fortunately you were more likely to bleed to death from a paper cut or a stress related heart attack than anything else. To say farming is exempt or companies not industries classed as dangerous with less than 20 employees don't have to have an appointed health & safety worker is appalling and so typical of National who don't give a stuff about workers. The Pike River tragedy if anything good was going to come from it was better work place health & safety. Well apparently that doesn't matter for small business in NZ.

Not only don't National care about workers safety they also don't care what sort of job is being done under their watch and budget. 30% of the piling jobs in 100 homes surveyed failed the building code! 30%! Another 20% need some remedy. So effectively 50% weren't up to scratch! 50% !!!
Obviously my old firm Fletchers the main contractor have much to blame here, but so does the National government. This is a government contract run out of the EQC. So how may other homes are out there in the same state? Thousands ? Most likely.
This reminds me of when Rudd's government was rolling out their insulation & school building program which was littered with incompetency which forced the resignation of the minister in charge Peter Garrett. Jerry Brownlee is in the same boat. He needs to take responsibility instead of blaming just Fletchers & the sub contractors.
Apparently nothing is this government's fault.
They have stuff up after stuff up, borrow 10s of billions, the economy is in a downward spiral and its either just not happening in their little bubble or its someone else's fault, typically Labour. They really are still in the playground !.
Johnny, who pulled Suzie's pony tail? Johnny, "it didn't happen, she's making it up." Or "It wasn't me, he did it".
Sound familiar?

craic
23-08-2015, 11:42 AM
You'll have to get a bigger doll - that one must look like a hedgehog with all the pins Still no answer about how Labour or the greens will cure the country of all the ills it doesn't have.

Daytr
23-08-2015, 12:02 PM
As I don't vote for either I'm not sure what your point is. However I have put plenty of ideas out there in regards differences in policy.
Perhaps like National you have a short memory? They forget all the time, that they are responsible for their own actions.
The doll is littered with pins I agree, as they continually stuff up. I have been saying for some time, every week there is something new.
However something has changed. Quite often now there is more than one blunder a week!
Such is their incompetence.

In regards these two items the solutions are quite simple.

1) All workers deserve to work in a safe environment no matter how many employees the company has.
2) Actually manage the Christchurch rebuild effectively. Or do you think a 30% fail rate and an additional 20% needs remedy is good enough?

Major von Tempsky
23-08-2015, 01:22 PM
So according to Daytr the Americans were to blame for Saddam Hussein invading and occupying Kuwait? (the First Gulf War). I'm ROTFL.

Daytr
23-08-2015, 02:02 PM
Nope, not according to me at all. You have a vivid imagination.
However the Americans support Saddam Hussein for a long time, particularly through the Iran/Iraq wars.
In fact the US (probably not alone) supported Hussein to gain power in Iraq.
He was a US puppet for a long time until the US decided he got too big for his boots and wasn't just inflicting pain on his own people, decided he wanted to take on Kuwait as well. You may want to do your research on how Saddam Hussein came to power and how the US maintained his regime for decades.

elZorro
23-08-2015, 05:09 PM
You'll have to get a bigger doll - that one must look like a hedgehog with all the pins Still no answer about how Labour or the greens will cure the country of all the ills it doesn't have.

I'm alongside Daytr on this one. Where do we start? I had a listen to both Q&A and The Nation this morning. There was even an F-bomb in there (http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/shamubeel-drops-f-bomb-tvnzs-qa-177633), they got quite animated. Look at the Health & Safety Bill. Compared with GST, which is virtually across the board and National supporters didn't want it taken off veges, OK, but what about this Health & Safety policy that was agreed on across parties. Now it's to be watered down so it doesn't apply to very small businesses, or to operations below an artificial previous events threshold. Which excludes farming operations just a bit bigger than your one, and up, Craic. We all heard how you had a near death experience with some trees.

If industries with less than 20 staff are in categories which have on average have had less than 25 deaths per 100,000 workers since 2008, or 25 serious injuries per 1,000 workers reported per year, they are off scot free from this part of the legislation. Farms are apparently below the cutoff, although dairy farms have a fatality rate of 16 per 100,000 workers since 2008, and (unknown) serious injuries per 1000 workers per year.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/agribusiness/71266643/most-farms-will-avoid-the-need-for-health-and-safety-representatives--minister

It's important to note that only about 8% of farm-based serious injuries get reported.

A survey carried out in 2014 showed that it looks like 20% of agricultural workers have a serious workplace injury every year. Every year. As most go unreported, that would mean 1.6% of workers show up in stats each year (the cutoff now is 2.5%), so for 5 years that's 8 workers per 100, or 80 per 1,000 workers, but the real figure could easily be 1,000 workers per 1,000 workers over a five year period. So now, does anyone think farms should be excluded?

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/less-than-8-per-cent-of-serious-agriculture-injuries-reported-survey-suggests-q07048

This is a clear case of a farmer lobby getting in the face of MPs, and there are also a few farmers in caucus, notably Bill English. Woodhouse would seem to prefer that farmers did get included in the requirement to appoint a health and safety officer if one was asked for. Heck, it could be one person trained up in each area, called on as needed by local farms.

That redneck far-right commentator, Matthew Hooton, reckoned that farmers don't want the opportunity for union reps to be appointed on every farm in the country, which of course is outright BS, which sounds good on TV. But it would have been a great leap forward for safety in the farming industry if workers could have a bit more of a say in health and safety practices, and be more informed.

So now it'll be very interesting to see if National will indeed railroad this stupid looking amended bill through because of a well-heeled farmer lobby (not Federated Farmers by the sound of it) or if they'll revert to common sense. Either way, they don't look too bright.

winner69
23-08-2015, 05:40 PM
Who got Eagub mad enough to sat F real?

One comment floating around is 'Jeez he talks real sense that he should be in charge' ...of Labour?

elZorro
24-08-2015, 06:54 AM
Who got Eagub mad enough to sat F real?

One comment floating around is 'Jeez he talks real sense that he should be in charge' ...of Labour?

Shamubeel Eaqub doesn't think too much of Winston by the sound of it.

He is more at liberty to say what he likes now, than when he was at NZIER. He probably regrets the outburst, but it shows that behind the cultured thinking and speech, he's also sincere in pointing out flawed thinking and attitudes.

Andrew Little, on the other hand, has to be careful not to do any damage to the Labour vote, and everything he says will be put under a microscope by National and the press, so it's no wonder he's taking a while to warm up.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/agribusiness/71321035/andrew-little-sledges-farmers-for-not-speaking-up-about-health-and-safety?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+24+A ugust+2015

John Key was on TV1 just now trying to justify the Safety and Health Bill changes, again repeating Matthew's idea about unions on farms, and how farms will always look after their family members and staff anyway.

In that case, why have any safety and health rules? They are needed because good intentions don't always work. So now the government sees fit to impose those extra rules on industries at the fringes of the cutoff, but not to small farms, because the former have a lower lobbying power, and they haven't checked the data they're using for accuracy. In much the same way, farmers get out of jail in paying for on-farm GHG emissions. Again, the government pretends there aren't already practical ways of reducing the emissions, they just repeat that farmers will pay once there are ways to reduce emissions. So then govt throws a few million at scientists for research, so they can show something is happening.

These are not small issues. They all matter. The National Govt is determined not to leave any trace of their three terms in good policies that will improve the lives of most New Zealanders. That is something that Labour Governments consistently achieve.

craic
24-08-2015, 08:06 AM
Today - and every other day - I will lug a couple of chainsaws and a couple of axes up the hill and cut up whichever tree I have felled or fell another tree and the only person who might be concerned for my safety is my wife. I am not concerned because I never do anything nasty to myself - does anyone? There is no safety officer. There is no law that says a seventy-seven-year old cannot use a 95cc chainsaw. There is no law that says I shouldn't use axes - the hill is too steep to consider mechanical splitters. The other day I sought out and bought a helmet, a skid-lid of the type used by skate boarders, largely because old people fall over more than others. I'm sure my Safety Officer would not approve of the type, if I had one. A Police report once described me as a "respectable local farmer" which I thought was hilarious at the time because I had two goats and about forty chickens on ten acres. If a Labour Govt. ( God forbid) insists that a safety officer must be appointed, I will retire - but I will be n my mid-eighties by then anyway.

winner69
24-08-2015, 08:11 AM
Today - and every other day - I will lug a couple of chainsaws and a couple of axes up the hill and cut up whichever tree I have felled or fell another tree and the only person who might be concerned for my safety is my wife. I am not concerned because I never do anything nasty to myself - does anyone? There is no safety officer. There is no law that says a seventy-seven-year old cannot use a 95cc chainsaw. There is no law that says I shouldn't use axes - the hill is too steep to consider mechanical splitters. The other day I sought out and bought a helmet, a skid-lid of the type used by skate boarders, largely because old people fall over more than others. I'm sure my Safety Officer would not approve of the type, if I had one. A Police report once described me as a "respectable local farmer" which I thought was hilarious at the time because I had two goats and about forty chickens on ten acres. If a Labour Govt. ( God forbid) insists that a safety officer must be appointed, I will retire - but I will be n my mid-eighties by then anyway.

Way to go craic

Kim Kurdishan pretty handy with an axe I believe .......she could help with the splintering while you do the boy bit with the chainsaw.

Good for her to get a bt of fresh air as well

Daytr
24-08-2015, 09:48 AM
Safety laws are their to protect workers against employers who aren't so thoughtful in regards their workers wellbeing Craic.
If all people did the right thing we wouldn't need laws full stop.
Unfortunately that's not the case.


Today - and every other day - I will lug a couple of chainsaws and a couple of axes up the hill and cut up whichever tree I have felled or fell another tree and the only person who might be concerned for my safety is my wife. I am not concerned because I never do anything nasty to myself - does anyone? There is no safety officer. There is no law that says a seventy-seven-year old cannot use a 95cc chainsaw. There is no law that says I shouldn't use axes - the hill is too steep to consider mechanical splitters. The other day I sought out and bought a helmet, a skid-lid of the type used by skate boarders, largely because old people fall over more than others. I'm sure my Safety Officer would not approve of the type, if I had one. A Police report once described me as a "respectable local farmer" which I thought was hilarious at the time because I had two goats and about forty chickens on ten acres. If a Labour Govt. ( God forbid) insists that a safety officer must be appointed, I will retire - but I will be n my mid-eighties by then anyway.

Major von Tempsky
24-08-2015, 10:10 AM
Well EZ if you are automatically lining up behind DayTr you ought first to make sure he's not an oxymoron....

Further back he says that the US were responsible for the 2 Gulf Wars. So I commented so the US was responsible for Saddam invading and occupying Kuwait and its oil? I'm ROTFL and he then says Nope, not at all, you have a vivid imagination.

Then he claims that the US was responsible for installing Saddam (you should recall that it was an Iraqi military coup with Saddam overthrowing his older Iraqi military mentor and if you look at Saddam's history you'll see he spent some time in Russia being trained by the Putin's lot the KGB).
There was no US involvement in Saddam coming to power and you won't find any credible historian who says there was.

Obviously when there are several mutually antagonistic enemies involved things get a little complicated and difficult for bears of very little brain (Daytr and EZ) to follow. So both Saddam and Iran were US enemies, Iran is much bigger and stronger than Iraq so when Saddam mad headedly invaded Iran the US helped him a little, for a while. But Kuwait is a democracy and an independent country so when Saddam invaded Kuwait naturally the US (and lots of other democracies) came to Kuwait's aid just as when Hitler invaded Poland. You have the same situation in Syria, Bashar Assad = Saddam, ISIL = pure extreme evil, the moderate Moslem rebels = the best hope. So the US etc tip Bashar the wink when they are going in after ISIL and his forces stay out of the way. But at the same time they are backing the moderate rebels, and the Kurds, to knock Bashar off. Ok? No, too much for your tiny little prejudiced left wing brains...

elZorro
24-08-2015, 12:14 PM
Well EZ if you are automatically lining up behind DayTr you ought first to make sure he's not an oxymoron....

Further back he says that the US were responsible for the 2 Gulf Wars. So I commented so the US was responsible for Saddam invading and occupying Kuwait and its oil? I'm ROTFL and he then says Nope, not at all, you have a vivid imagination.

Then he claims that the US was responsible for installing Saddam (you should recall that it was an Iraqi military coup with Saddam overthrowing his older Iraqi military mentor and if you look at Saddam's history you'll see he spent some time in Russia being trained by the Putin's lot the KGB).
There was no US involvement in Saddam coming to power and you won't find any credible historian who says there was.

Obviously when there are several mutually antagonistic enemies involved things get a little complicated and difficult for bears of very little brain (Daytr and EZ) to follow. So both Saddam and Iran were US enemies, Iran is much bigger and stronger than Iraq so when Saddam mad headedly invaded Iran the US helped him a little, for a while. But Kuwait is a democracy and an independent country so when Saddam invaded Kuwait naturally the US (and lots of other democracies) came to Kuwait's aid just as when Hitler invaded Poland. You have the same situation in Syria, Bashar Assad = Saddam, ISIL = pure extreme evil, the moderate Moslem rebels = the best hope. So the US etc tip Bashar the wink when they are going in after ISIL and his forces stay out of the way. But at the same time they are backing the moderate rebels, and the Kurds, to knock Bashar off. Ok? No, too much for your tiny little prejudiced left wing brains...

MVT, surely a topic for another thread? This one is all about crap National policies vs sensible policies, and how National have been able to hoodwink NZ voters for three elections, so far.

Craic, you can rest assured that there will be no H&S officer appointed to your block, because you are below the SME size threshold. But I see that if one was appointed, you'd throw out the bath with the bathwater. That's not a great attitude, but one John Key knows only too well. It suits his policies.

craic
24-08-2015, 12:36 PM
Granted elZ. you have worked tirelessly to make this a labour party propaganda thread. Your dedication has not been upset by the stupidity of the NZ voters who have failed to follow your lead and I'm sure you will be equally strong after the next election when the labour party is set to fail again. And even if there is nothing left of the party after that election, you will still be there with your banner and your John Key doll and a new packet of pins. As to the divergence, a little is good now and then. I didn't go up on the hill this morning. I instead I went to the funeral of a man who served his country and I did the honours - Last Post etc. on behalf of the nation - This afternoon, I may sharpen a saw or two.

BlackPeter
24-08-2015, 02:36 PM
Thanks to the wisdom of the Australian treasurer can we now better understand the cause of all of our problems:

URL:http://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/hockey-warns-new-zealands-lower-tax-rate-attracting-aussies

Our taxes are too low, and this causes a flood of Aussies to leave their shores and flock to ours. I guess this must be the ultimate reason for the Auckland housing crisis as well. The only thing we need to do to fix all this is to crank up taxes (thanks Mr Hockey) until nobody wants to live here anymore (well, but the beneficiaries). This will free up lots of Auckland houses, and market forces will make sure they are affordable again. Aussies and Kiwis alike will flee back across the Tasman to work for the lucky country ... and NZ can go back into hibernation.

Hold on - wasn't this the situation we had during the last Labour government? Lots of capable Kiwis left New Zealand to make their fortune in Australia (daytr - I think you have some personal experience in that regard .. fleeing to Australia, I mean). National even had an election slogan related to Kiwis leaving (when NZ was still under Helens iron fist) ... and hey, they turned the flood around and now everybody including the valued Australian treasurer complains about too many people wanting to go to NZ.

So maybe it is time to get Labour back holding the reigns to get rid of all these unwanted new dwellers Mr Hockey is envying us for (people with Australian sounding names and some Kiwis as well) ... and all our problems are solved.

Freedom for daytr's fishing spot!

Daytr
24-08-2015, 04:19 PM
The US gave Saddam a little help! LOL. Pull the other one. Suddam did play both sides of the fence, both Russia and the US.
And quite frankly its absolute BS that the US didn't play a part in Saddam coming to power.
They had involvement back in the late 50s and 60s in various power struggles in Iraq.
And to be honest, none of really know how much involvement either the Russians or US had as a lot of it was covert.'
However we are talking about the cold war period & I would suggest both were heavily involved and tried to influence as much as possible.
A little bit like Syria, now, its difficult to say who is backing who & I certainly don't believe everything I read in the Western media.


Well EZ if you are automatically lining up behind DayTr you ought first to make sure he's not an oxymoron....

Further back he says that the US were responsible for the 2 Gulf Wars. So I commented so the US was responsible for Saddam invading and occupying Kuwait and its oil? I'm ROTFL and he then says Nope, not at all, you have a vivid imagination.

Then he claims that the US was responsible for installing Saddam (you should recall that it was an Iraqi military coup with Saddam overthrowing his older Iraqi military mentor and if you look at Saddam's history you'll see he spent some time in Russia being trained by the Putin's lot the KGB).
There was no US involvement in Saddam coming to power and you won't find any credible historian who says there was.

Obviously when there are several mutually antagonistic enemies involved things get a little complicated and difficult for bears of very little brain (Daytr and EZ) to follow. So both Saddam and Iran were US enemies, Iran is much bigger and stronger than Iraq so when Saddam mad headedly invaded Iran the US helped him a little, for a while. But Kuwait is a democracy and an independent country so when Saddam invaded Kuwait naturally the US (and lots of other democracies) came to Kuwait's aid just as when Hitler invaded Poland. You have the same situation in Syria, Bashar Assad = Saddam, ISIL = pure extreme evil, the moderate Moslem rebels = the best hope. So the US etc tip Bashar the wink when they are going in after ISIL and his forces stay out of the way. But at the same time they are backing the moderate rebels, and the Kurds, to knock Bashar off. Ok? No, too much for your tiny little prejudiced left wing brains...

Daytr
24-08-2015, 04:35 PM
Nice one BP, great fiction all around.
I didn't flee anywhere and actually left NZ shores when National was in power under Jim Bolger in the early 90s until his own party knifed him in the back when he was put of the country.
The mass immigration to Aussie in the 2000s was more related to China than anything else & the massive commodity boom that Australia benefited from. Nothing to do with taxes, but certainly very well paid jobs that were being offered.
The same thing happened post 2008 where may Kiwis headed home from the UK as the world economy went into a tail spin.
That's typical, people head home to what they know.

Actually the situation under Labour was that government debt was reducing to under $20Bln and the NZ economy was in fine shape.
No selling of assets in depressed markets at what will no doubt be bargain basement prices.
Wow what a great time to sell dairy holdings and forestry blocks!
Key from the world of finance and all he knows how to do, is borrow money, get the country in the biggest hock by multiples and all while selling billions of dollars of assets. Anyone (besides perhaps MVT) will tell you, borrowing more, whilst reducing assets is a recipe for disaster. Perhaps sell assets to reduce debt, but certainly not whilst increasing debt!
This National government are economic morons and are going to leave NZ with a mountain of debt and less assets to generate income to pay it down. But no doubt a new government will manage it, yet again, paying down a National debt mountain.


Thanks to the wisdom of the Australian treasurer can we now better understand the cause of all of our problems:

URL:http://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/hockey-warns-new-zealands-lower-tax-rate-attracting-aussies

Our taxes are too low, and this causes a flood of Aussies to leave their shores and flock to ours. I guess this must be the ultimate reason for the Auckland housing crisis as well. The only thing we need to do to fix all this is to crank up taxes (thanks Mr Hockey) until nobody wants to live here anymore (well, but the beneficiaries). This will free up lots of Auckland houses, and market forces will make sure they are affordable again. Aussies and Kiwis alike will flee back across the Tasman to work for the lucky country ... and NZ can go back into hibernation.

Hold on - wasn't this the situation we had during the last Labour government? Lots of capable Kiwis left New Zealand to make their fortune in Australia (daytr - I think you have some personal experience in that regard .. fleeing to Australia, I mean). National even had an election slogan related to Kiwis leaving (when NZ was still under Helens iron fist) ... and hey, they turned the flood around and now everybody including the valued Australian treasurer complains about too many people wanting to go to NZ.

So maybe it is time to get Labour back holding the reigns to get rid of all these unwanted new dwellers Mr Hockey is envying us for (people with Australian sounding names and some Kiwis as well) ... and all our problems are solved.

Freedom for daytr's fishing spot!

elZorro
24-08-2015, 05:31 PM
Granted elZ. you have worked tirelessly to make this a labour party propaganda thread. Your dedication has not been upset by the stupidity of the NZ voters who have failed to follow your lead and I'm sure you will be equally strong after the next election when the labour party is set to fail again. And even if there is nothing left of the party after that election, you will still be there with your banner and your John Key doll and a new packet of pins. As to the divergence, a little is good now and then. I didn't go up on the hill this morning. I instead I went to the funeral of a man who served his country and I did the honours - Last Post etc. on behalf of the nation - This afternoon, I may sharpen a saw or two.

Craic, you must be pretty good on the cornet, that's not an easy job. Impressed.

BlackPeter
24-08-2015, 05:38 PM
Nice one BP, great fiction all around.


Thanks - but can't take credit for what you call "fiction" ... it was the Australian treasurer who said that things are now so good in NZ that Aussies are migrating to our shores instead of paying their tax to him ... just read the article;)

Daytr
24-08-2015, 07:00 PM
Funny I wasn't talking about the article, just the things you added or interpreted.
Hockey isn't the sharpest tool in shed & the Abbott & Hockey's right wing government in Australia makes even Key & his party look good at times.
What tax rates do you think he is referring to? Must be the top tax rate & yes its typical of National to only look after the already well off. In Australia your first $18k is tax free! I would suggest Hockey is just softening up the Aussies for tax hikes to try & balance their budget, as like National here, government debt has ballooned under them as well.
What is it with the current right wing and their inability to manage finances?

The monk is just a straight out embarrassment, but its not the first time right wingers have elected dubious leaders.
George W Bush comes to mind & he somehow got re-elected! Now maybe we get comb over Trump!
Gawd help the world if he gets the top job in the US. Mind you he's probably a step up from George W or another Bush, well maybe at least.

elZorro
25-08-2015, 06:43 AM
More about the work health and safety bill from a govt appointed taskforce member.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/71391809/government-has-created-a-farce-with-its-work-and-safety-legislation?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Tuesday+25+ August+2015

Even Rawden can see that National are now talking about Easter trading days in a bid to divert attention.

Daytr
25-08-2015, 07:34 AM
The reserve bank sends out a fresh warning in regards a housing price collapse in Auckland. And what do you know they sight a rapid rise in immigration & investors as the main drivers. Investors covers both foreign and domestic buyers. However Key points to Christchurch as an example where property prices have stabalised. Christchurch! Hardly a typical property market and a city unfortunately where people have left in droves and the main driver of property prices there was because of the limited safe housing available and a huge workforce that needed to be housed. Does Key think the NZ population are morons & will continue to swallow his tripe ?
The RBNZ tried to raise interest rates to stem the Auckland market, however the economy under National wasn't strong enough to handle it & as a large component of the driving forces in the Auckland market are coming from offshore it has no effect.

Nationals latest long term infrastructure plan of building masses of motorways to cater for a growing population.
$110Bln! What if you don't have a growing population or just a very small amount of increase?
What would need spending then? Where is the imagination in this plan? More roads!
No thought to the environment in regards spending on efficient public transport systems.
That's what we want, more trucks & cars on the roads!
More traffic, more consumption of fossil fuels.
The way NZ is going we will end up being a miniature UK, littered with motorways & roads & populations littering the countryside in every direction with no planning or infrastructure besides a road to cater for them.

craic
25-08-2015, 07:40 AM
no cornet or trumpet. I simply conduct the RSA ode etc. call for the Last Post, Reville ,the placing of poppies and a few words n behalf of the Nation. Sometimes we have a trumpeter but mostly a recording. Yesterday was at a Requeum Mass on twenty hours notice for someone I did not know.
Craic, you must be pretty good on the cornet, that's not an easy job. Impressed.

craic
25-08-2015, 07:43 AM
no cornet or trumpet. I simply conduct the RSA ode etc. call for the Last Post, Reville ,the placing of poppies and a few words n behalf of the Nation. Sometimes we have a trumpeter but mostly a recording.
Craic, you must be pretty good on the cornet, that's not an easy job. Impressed.

elZorro
25-08-2015, 07:06 PM
no cornet or trumpet. I simply conduct the RSA ode etc. call for the Last Post, Reville ,the placing of poppies and a few words n behalf of the Nation. Sometimes we have a trumpeter but mostly a recording.

Craic, I was imagining a ruddy-complexioned older chap doing a beautiful rendition of the last post, making it look like it's easy. Of course it isn't, it takes a lot of ongoing practice, and I haven't seen a brass band for a while. Anyway, you did more than most, good on yer.

elZorro
26-08-2015, 06:40 AM
More talk of recession and deficits being quelled by John Key and Bill English (http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/john-key-confident-market-crash-wont-mean-recession-2015082518#axzz3jrIRf7ke). I noticed John Key on TV saying that it wouldn't be the end of the world if NZ had a "quarter or two" of negative GDP growth. It won't be long now, and we'll see if this National Govt has been able to engineer a small budget surplus for the last year. But apparently, the books are in better shape now, even better than Australia's. Prove it.

http://www.interest.co.nz/bonds/77257/john-key-and-bill-english-dont-see-global-stock-rout-or-slowing-chinese-economy-leading?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Wednesday+2 6+August+2015

The rest of the world don't seem to trust our dollar in a crisis.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/currency/news/article.cfm?c_id=167&objectid=11502477

Mike Hosking recently spending over two minutes jollying up the public in his one minute spot to back National on prime TV at no cost, but will this be enough, come 2017?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=153531

For a more developed argument, see this post from The Standard. Good comments, mostly.

http://thestandard.org.nz/in-face-of-share-market-meltdown-govts-options-limited/

macduffy
26-08-2015, 07:35 AM
No need to go surfing the news sites these days. Just wait for eZ's morning digest of bad (National govt) news!

;)

Daytr
26-08-2015, 08:03 AM
Amasing isn't it EZ. NZ was in such great shape whilst most of the Western World was indebted up to its eyeballs.
Seems like Key is in a race to join them.
How do multi-nationals gain control of government. First they bankrupt them and then they take over their services.
Sound familiar?

iceman
26-08-2015, 08:05 AM
No need to go surfing the news sites these days. Just wait for eZ's morning digest of bad (National govt) news!

;)

I noticed he didn't link the latest Herald/Digipoll though. Surely nothing sinister, must have just missed it :-)

iceman
26-08-2015, 08:06 AM
No need to go surfing the news sites these days. Just wait for eZ's morning digest of bad (National govt) news!

;)

I noticed he didn't link the latest Herald/Digipoll though. Surely nothing sinister, must have just missed it :-)

craic
26-08-2015, 08:13 AM
You miss the obvious - Labour are called "left" because they have only one eye, and that's on the left side. Anything to the right or centre is missed.
I noticed he didn't link the latest Herald/Digipoll though. Surely nothing sinister, must have just missed it :-)

Daytr
26-08-2015, 08:43 AM
And the right, because they refuse to accept or take responsibility when they are wrong again and again Craic. ;-)

Ask yourself a question. Would you run your own finances by selling off assets, whilst quadrupling debt?
Recipe for disaster.

artemis
26-08-2015, 09:02 AM
..... Ask yourself a question. Would you run your own finances by selling off assets, whilst quadrupling debt?
Recipe for disaster.

I'm not craic, but my answer would be - it depends. Specifically it depends on the alternatives needed to pay the rent or mortgage and put basic food on the table. A prolonged period of austerity is clearly one alternative. So - emergency measures to drastically cut household spending for a start by cutting all non essential expenses (Sky, landline, internet, rehome the pets, tobacco, alcohol, takeaways ..... ) and selling off anything possible (vehicles, telly, game boxes ....).

From a government point of view, a haircut for superannuation, no more WfF or interest free student loans, increase class sizes, chop back public services...... And of course raise taxes all round including GST.

We could take lessons from Greece.

daytr, what would your personal financial chosen course of action be in the circs?

Daytr
26-08-2015, 09:27 AM
Hey Artemis, I would be investing in diversifying the economy and job creation rather than concentrating on primary production such as dairy and logs.
I would be investing in commuter rail rather than building massive motorways. I live north of Auckland and everyone I talk to think the Puhoi motorway extension with a budget of anything from $2-3Bln, is a complete waste of money.
I would revisit the tax structure and close loop holes around offshoring of income or taxes by wealthy individuals and corporations.
A capital gains tax of some description needs to be implemented on investment property and not just when selling within a certain time frame.
I would be investing in our nature and environment, protecting our wildlife both land & marine based and promoting that overseas for tourism and an investment in our future. Included in that would be revamping the fishing industry and the completely wasteful quota management system. Create jobs for NZers from our fisheries a diminishing resource that we don't value nearly enough.

We should deregulate the power industry further and openly encourage green energy and local generation. This would not only create an industry it would reduce energy costs across the nation dramatically creating a massive injection of stimulus as mums & dads have more money in their pocket to spend.
I don't think public services need to be cut back at all. Money just needs to be spent smarter than it is now.
Labour seemed to manage it and reduce debt.
I realize there is some justification for a large increase in government debt, however in 2011-2014 we had a mini boom and the government sold billions of dollars of assets and yet debt still continues to grow. There is something very wrong with that.
The government is contracting out a bunch of services.
Where is the value? Its obviously not saving us any money and there has been stuff up after stuff up.
Hence I would suggest we are paying more for a worse result.

There is plenty more, but that will do for now. ;-)
Cheers Daytr

elZorro
26-08-2015, 09:43 AM
Hey Artemis, I would be investing in diversifying the economy and job creation rather than concentrating on primary production such as dairy and logs.
I would be investing in commuter rail rather than building massive motorways. I live north of Auckland and everyone I talk to think the Puhoi motorway extension with a budget of anything from $2-3Bln, is a complete waste of money.
I would revisit the tax structure and close loop holes around offshoring of income or taxes by wealthy individuals and corporations.
A capital gains tax of some description needs to be implemented on investment property and not just when selling within a certain time frame.
I would be investing in our nature and environment, protecting our wildlife both land & marine based and promoting that overseas for tourism and an investment in our future. Included in that would be revamping the fishing industry and the completely wasteful quota management system. Create jobs for NZers from our fisheries a diminishing resource that we don't value nearly enough.

We should deregulate the power industry further and openly encourage green energy and local generation. This would not only create an industry it would reduce energy costs across the nation dramatically creating a massive injection of stimulus as mums & dads have more money in their pocket to spend.
I don't think public services need to be cut back at all. Money just needs to be spent smarter than it is now.
Labour seemed to manage it and reduce debt.
I realize there is some justification for a large increase in government debt, however in 2011-2014 we had a mini boom and the government sold billions of dollars of assets and yet debt still continues to grow. There is something very wrong with that.
The government is contracting out a bunch of services.
Where is the value? Its obviously not saving us any money and there has been stuff up after stuff up.
Hence I would suggest we are paying more for a worse result.

There is plenty more, but that will do for now. ;-)
Cheers Daytr

Daytr for PM.

I would add, that National is welcome to see common sense and implement the broad outline of Labour's KiwiBuild program. They could also reinstate R&D tax credits, to give every SME a go at pulling the economy out of the recession that is on its way.

If you don't agree about a recession within 12 months - anyone prepared to bet on that?

artemis
26-08-2015, 09:46 AM
Lots of long term potential solutions. Just reminding you that the C in GFC stands for Crisis. That means now. Paying the rent. Putting food on the table. Losing the job.

Daytr
26-08-2015, 10:24 AM
What have National done for the short term good Artemis? They have borrowed money & spent it on a massive road building program.
I'm suggesting spending that & perhaps less but on commuter light rail & freight rail and the like. Obviously the Christchurch re-build would have needed to carry on and funded, however I am very confident that could have been better managed as well. National have been in power seven years, so if they had actually invested in these sorts of things they would have come to fruition by now. Both industries I named, fishing and electricity production would create jobs for NZers. So would moving NZ more into finished goods rather than exporting primary product as much as we do.
Cheaper electricity as I said would also act as stimulus, a perfect solution to help offset some of the impact of the GFC.
There are plenty of schools that have recently been highlighted that need almost complete re-builds.
If National had been doing their job, there would have been on-going work done, rather than leaving it until its too late and they are demo jobs.

I'm not saying government debt didn't need to rise substantially, it did due to the GFC & Christchurch.
However they have kept on borrowing and selling assets even through the recent good times and even through rampant immigration which also creates growth, albeit unsustainable growth.

Their strategy/policy has been very narrow & also very 20th century. Investing in what may have made sense 30 years ago, but not now.

Major von Tempsky
26-08-2015, 11:36 AM
Daytr, as usual you have the anti-Midas touch.

Electricity is in surplus and is moving further into surplus. The general experience around the world is that light rail makes losses which increase over time.

Daytr
26-08-2015, 12:19 PM
So why are NZs electricity bills rising so fast?
Its not all about supply but where that supply is coming from & generating it from the South Island and losing 35% in transmission makes absolutely no sense for the upper half of the North Island where the demand is. Neither does upgrading or maintaining such lengthy infrastructure for its transmission. Mind you National had the answer. They were considering more coal powered generation in the Waikato!
What general experience? Do roads make money?
Pretty simplistic economics here MVT.
Strangely yet again you fail to grasp it.

craic
26-08-2015, 04:09 PM
So does the rest of NZ. That's why they don't vote for Labour.

Daytr
26-08-2015, 05:25 PM
I don't think investing wisely in your country's future is the preserve of the Left side of politics Craic.
Unfortunately under Key's National it may appear that way.
Key doesn't invest, he just flogs it off to anyone who is willing to take it & even when his preferred unaware buyer doesn't want a bar of it, that wont stop him, he'll flog it off to a foreign buyer.

If National were doing the right thing I would happily vote for them, but unfortunately they are selling this country down the river and mismanaging the economy, no care for the environment and no long term vision in regards what is good for the country as a whole. No planning to fund retirement, in fact the opposite they are cutting back what Labour put in place.

Funny none of what I suggested was left wing, but it's how you viewed it.
Labour does have some policy alignment,but that's not left wing, unless you are saying it is the left wing's domain to actually plan for the future, care for the environment and balance the books! Personally I don't think Labour have strong enough policy in a few key areas particularly the environment, but they are a hell of an improvement from the current out of control self obsessed mob.

neopoleII
26-08-2015, 07:11 PM
i drove from pukekohe to botany downs last week trying to find a gas heater for the new workshop.
spent all day driving from one mega 10 to the next bunnings and so on.
all of them had sold out. the point here is not the gas heater but the thousands of houses i passed over the endless
miles i drove and all the while going from 1 traffic jam to the next.
there is no way in the world that a rail system can be implemented in a city that has 1 million residents, but has a spread
that is bigger than most mega cities of 10 million plus people.
until this city is reduced in land spread the only way to move 1 million people is via road...... or you have hundreds of trains
cris-crossing this hour glassed shaped city.

regarding electricity generation where it is used..... there was a plan to put turbines into the kiapera harbour .... but that got shot down.
then there was windmills on the coast between port wiakato and ragland...... that got shot down.....
so we could have solar panels on all the city house roofs....... well that is good but which factory is going to use all that power on a mid summer sunday afternoon?
and where is the power coming from on wednesday evening when south auckland factories are full steam ahead?

whats wrong with burning coal if the emissions are captured?
for that matter.... why is the left wing blocking windmills and tidal hydro in the north island?
and if government policy does enforce rooftop solar power...... will these panels be made in NZ?

so easy to criticize but no real depth forward planning .... this is the "perception" that the left wing shows the NZ public.
and the NZ public vote accordingly.

not a very scientific assessment but try driving through half the suburbs on a thursday all day and you might get an idea of the huge challenge of rail
solving the transport problems of auckland.

Daytr
26-08-2015, 07:54 PM
Funny any criticism or in this case ideas and you automatically say its from the left wing. Ha ha.
None of these policies are left wing & neither am I.
You don't need the rail network you suggest, just parking supplied near the stations.
It actually takes very little to make a big difference in regards traffic issues.
Rail wont replace existing roads but will help alleviate traffic and the need to build new ones or massive motorways.
I do agree though the spread of Auckland needs to be contained
How much coal we burn now is captured? Where is it going to be captured?
Why not just not burn it at all if you don't need to.
How is the left blocking hydro or wind generation?
We already have the power supply, we just don't need to add to more South Island generation and any new generation capacity should be made locally where its used. So its not solar on houses producing for industry but for themselves and a bit for the grid no doubt, but they just aren't drawing from the existing supply. Quite simple really. In Northland they are looking to expand geothermal, at least that's a positive.
Why do the panels need to be made here? Very little else is. However installing hundreds of thousands of them would create a fair few jobs.
More roads & more cars on the roads, are you really suggesting that's the answer?

Major von Tempsky
27-08-2015, 10:27 AM
Not simplistic at all, I switched to Nova Energy and my bills have been falling.

Try keeping up with the energy articles in New Scientist and The Economist and you'll understand wher I am coming from.

Daytr
27-08-2015, 11:13 AM
Yep I read the Economist, not as much as I used to.
Since changing editor it seems to have gone down hill imo.
The old editor use to ask the tough questions, perhaps that's why they changed.
Happening the world over.

Daytr
27-08-2015, 04:22 PM
Dita de Boni at her best. Hard hitting opinion piece, so much better than the saccharine Mike Hosking dishes up.
Is she leaving the Herald? I hope she stays in main stream media as we need voices like this.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11503338

westerly
27-08-2015, 04:31 PM
i

regarding electricity generation where it is used..... there was a plan to put turbines into the kiapera harbour .... but that got shot down.
then there was windmills on the coast between port wiakato and ragland...... that got shot down.....
so we could have solar panels on all the city house roofs....... well that is good but which factory is going to use all that power on a mid summer sunday afternoon?
and where is the power coming from on wednesday evening when south auckland factories are full steam ahead?

whats wrong with burning coal if the emissions are captured?
for that matter.... why is the left wing blocking windmills and tidal hydro in the north island?
and if government policy does enforce rooftop solar power...... will these panels be made in NZ?

so easy to criticize but no real depth forward planning .... this is the "perception" that the left wing shows the NZ public.
and the NZ public vote accordingly.

.


It was not the left wing as you call it that put these projects on the back burner

westerly

winner69
27-08-2015, 07:19 PM
EZ, I take it that Labour are stuck with Little now until the next election and then pin their hopes on Jacinda for 2020.

Not the best position to be in at the moment is it.

neopoleII
27-08-2015, 07:31 PM
""It was not the left wing as you call it that put these projects on the back burner""

to be fair i dont know who stopped the tidal hydro power system in the kaipera harbour
or the wind turbines on the west coast of port waikato / ragland.
but i can say with regard to the wind turbines there was alot of local public discussions /
questionaires, and door knocking to find peoples opinions and "change" peoples opinions.
the feel i got from this episode was that the very few local land owners in the area (( 1000 plus acre holdings))
had no issue... but many non locals protested endlessly to stop the windfarm.
how it stands now is.... yes a couple of turbines can be placed. and then environmental impact studies will be conducted for a decade or so
and then ...... after all the studies and lobby groups have done there thing a few more turbines can be placed.... etc etc......
until one day maybe the power company can have an economic wind generation development.
If you drive from the port to ragland you might past 50 houses over a 100 km journey. the place is isolated and the roads are rough and the few
people that live there had no issue. yet it seems a wind farm close to auckland is something that is not wanted.
all i can say..its not right wing policy to knock down renewable power.
i and alot of locals in the area a very pevved that the windfarm has been severely hamstrung.

with regards to the tidal hydro system, it was all over the media 2 years ago because certain lobby groups forced its shutdown.
there was talk of millions of fish being turned into burly (which is totally unfounded) but was enough to turn the project into an experiment
with one turbine spinning at 60 rpm. again not a right wing political move or motive.

so yes...... i cannot call it a left wing handbrake. but then if you read the fine print on the greens website regarding alternative power generation
you will see that there a few places in NZ that fit their criteria of alternative power generation..... what with ( visual pollution, sound pollution potential of burly production)
and the list goes on.
i am all in for hydro and wind power and looking after the environment, but sometimes some pc ideology just goes to far.
as for co2 capture from coal plants........ its being done and is viable it just needs public pressure ...... instead of blind public disdain.
and lastly.... the co2 output of electricity generation in NZ is minuscule to other nations.... but yes we can always do better.
thats my 2 cents for this week.....

Daytr
28-08-2015, 09:12 AM
Well at least you corrected yourself NeopoleII as it certainly wasn't a left agenda to stop these projects.
Not all 'green' power generation makes sense and is not always that green in respect the impact on the environment. i.e. building a massive dam on a river obviously has a huge impact on the river system and down stream, let alone flooding a massive area.
I know someone who builds hydro schemes for a living and he had big doubts about the viability of the Kaipara project in regards how many turbines they would need etc and he specializes in turbines. In saying that the wind mills on the Waitaks seems to make sense to me.
I would suggest it is a National agenda to suppress alternative energy, particularly private solar, otherwise they would implement supportive policy and ensure that power put back into the grid was paid at a much better rate than it is. The government obviously has a massive interest in the current providers, let alone protecting the returns to their shareholder mates. They have shown a complete disregard for environment and have no effective policy in regards climate change, in fact have promoted fossil fuel exploitation, mining and cut the budget to DOC. Hardly a government that is green at all!

westerly
28-08-2015, 11:42 AM
""It was not the left wing as you call it that put these projects on the back burner""

to be fair i dont know who stopped the tidal hydro power system in the kaipera harbour
or the wind turbines on the west coast of port waikato / ragland.
but i can say with regard to the wind turbines there was alot of local public discussions /
questionaires, and door knocking to find peoples opinions and "change" peoples opinions.
the feel i got from this episode was that the very few local land owners in the area (( 1000 plus acre holdings))
had no issue... but many non locals protested endlessly to stop the windfarm.
how it stands now is.... yes a couple of turbines can be placed. and then environmental impact studies will be conducted for a decade or so
and then ...... after all the studies and lobby groups have done there thing a few more turbines can be placed.... etc etc......
until one day maybe the power company can have an economic wind generation development.
If you drive from the port to ragland you might past 50 houses over a 100 km journey. the place is isolated and the roads are rough and the few
people that live there had no issue. yet it seems a wind farm close to auckland is something that is not wanted.
all i can say..its not right wing policy to knock down renewable power.
i and alot of locals in the area a very pevved that the windfarm has been severely hamstrung.

with regards to the tidal hydro system, it was all over the media 2 years ago because certain lobby groups forced its shutdown.
there was talk of millions of fish being turned into burly (which is totally unfounded) but was enough to turn the project into an experiment
with one turbine spinning at 60 rpm. again not a right wing political move or motive.

so yes...... i cannot call it a left wing handbrake. but then if you read the fine print on the greens website regarding alternative power generation
you will see that there a few places in NZ that fit their criteria of alternative power generation..... what with ( visual pollution, sound pollution potential of burly production)
a.

Neopole -Excerpt from the NBR, not generally recognized as left on the Port Waikato wind farm.

“But Contact, majority owned by Australian-owned Origin, is facing a fight on two fronts over the project, led by two well-connected, prominent businessmen who own land in the affected area.
Former dairy industry leader and ex Affco chief executive Ross Townshend is leading a challenge against the wind turbines while NBR Rich Lister Mark Stewart is trying to force Contact to use underground cable instead of the pylons the energy company plans to transmit electricity through to the national grid.”
Local maori and fishermen who may or may not be left objected to the Kaipara project.
Both projects were put on hold because of doubts over electricity surpluses.

westerly

Major von Tempsky
28-08-2015, 05:17 PM
Well at least you corrected yourself NeopoleII as it certainly wasn't a left agenda to stop these projects.
Not all 'green' power generation makes sense and is not always that green in respect the impact on the environment. i.e. building a massive dam on a river obviously has a huge impact on the river system and down stream, let alone flooding a massive area.
I know someone who builds hydro schemes for a living and he had big doubts about the viability of the Kaipara project in regards how many turbines they would need etc and he specializes in turbines. In saying that the wind mills on the Waitaks seems to make sense to me.
I would suggest it is a National agenda to suppress alternative energy, particularly private solar, otherwise they would implement supportive policy and ensure that power put back into the grid was paid at a much better rate than it is. The government obviously has a massive interest in the current providers, let alone protecting the returns to their shareholder mates. They have shown a complete disregard for environment and have no effective policy in regards climate change, in fact have promoted fossil fuel exploitation, mining and cut the budget to DOC. Hardly a government that is green at all!

What a load of transparent cods!

(a) No electricity company wants to be committed to flooding the electricity system with wind an solar power when it is at a time of low demand.!

(b) No company wants to produce power of any type at a loss.

(c) Why should the National Government have to subsidise wind and solar power? They need to be able to stand on their own 2 feet or else get the chop!

Sgt Pepper
28-08-2015, 06:55 PM
what a load of transparent cods!

(a) no electricity company wants to be committed to flooding the electricity system with wind an solar power when it is at a time of low demand.!

(b) no company wants to produce power of any type at a loss.

(c) why should the national government have to subsidise wind and solar power? They need to be able to stand on their own 2 feet or else get the chop!

here endeth the lesson.

Daytr
29-08-2015, 08:41 AM
Exactly Sgt Pepper, MVT highlighted the issues with the current industry structure and the funny thing is he doesn't even realize it.

(a) exactly so the companies are not working in the best interest of NZers as all they care about is making profits, as is their mandate.
Why low demand? When do you think peak demand is MVT? Does the wind stop blowing at a particular time of day? Do tides stop running?
(b) If solar, wind etc makes other generation not profitable, then so be it, as its obviously not as competitive then.
(c) Who said anything about subsidies? You should hop to the left with ideas like that. At the moment self generators are under paid for their surplus power, so in fact its them that are subsidizing the power companies. If they were paid a market rate, it would make the economics of solar so much better. Something as an economist if that's what you are, (& I have my doubts considering a number of your posts ) would understand.

Energy is naturally occurring, it just requires capturing and distributing.
Why do we look at ways to make energy economic in the archaic sense of the word?
Its because the current western model is all about making money out of it.
What if it was provided purely to make the lowest cost energy available and cover only the costs of the infrastructure required?
Obviously the closer the generation source to the demand means less expense in relation to infrastructure.
Some forward thinking commentators say we are heading toward an era of free energy.
Fancy that!

Daytr
29-08-2015, 09:20 AM
So the global head of Serco is in the country.
This is the company that also supplies military contractors to the US government.
According to Rupert Soames, Mt Eden prison has been run better under Serco than it was under National before they took it over.
Really! I will give National and the Dept of Corrections some credit here that it wasn't as bad and it just goes to show that Serco aren't about accepting responsibility, but denial and sweeping under the carpet. Their internal memos to staff also reflect the same intent. This a company that doesn't want transparency and doesn't want its staff to cooperate fully with any investigation. If you can't trust them, how can you do business with them? How can you let them run various government services? It is now apparent that Key is also considering them as a buyer of NZs state housing! So lets not get rid of them, lets not curtail their involvement in government services. Let's reward them! Lets give them more assets to run into the ground and corrupt.
Key would sell his grandmother, or more likely give her away !

Daytr
29-08-2015, 09:57 AM
MVT, if you are indeed an economist this might be something that appeals.
In the US this week they had a massive boost in GDP and the area that are benefitting the most is the consumer on Main St.
Why? Substantially lower oil prices. This puts more money in Ma & Pa's pocket, to spend & creates demand and jobs.
The same would occur here if electricity prices were far more reasonable. Rather than lining the pockets of a few with dividends and paying high powered execs millions of dollars, that money could be distributed wider in the economy and would act as stimulus. The trickle down effect is BS and proven to be so by the widening gap between the have's and the have nots. There may be some trickle, but a concentration of wealth in a small percentage of hands means lazy capital that is tied up in things like land or their own luxury. Where as if that money is spread it is spent far & wide creating a massive boost to the economy, so not a trickle, but a flood. Electricity in NZ is the equivalent of a tax on the poor. Everyone needs it & quite often a similar amount as well, so it impacts poor families far more than the wealthy. Energy should be provided at the cost of production, combining green and efficient methods of production.

Major von Tempsky
29-08-2015, 10:39 AM
A moments thought Daytr...and you would realize that the CEOs who get "millions as remuneration" work in companies with incomes of BILLIONS and work much harder, longer and far more inspired and "cleverer" than your welfare beneficiary and road labourer.

The distribution of IQ, character and initiative amongst the population is not even, but extremely UNEVEN. If everyone gets paid fairly evenly then no-one would put any effort or thought into what they are doing.

If Einstein were still alive I would be quite happy that he was paid, or earned an income, thousands of times greater than me.

One of my investments is in a turnround situation, where the CEO (who has previously proved himself as a turnround expert in the same industry) has just been awarded cheap share options more than three times the value of my hard saved investment. Am I grizzling? No, I am rejoicing!

Sgt Pepper
29-08-2015, 11:01 AM
A moments thought Daytr...and you would realize that the CEOs who get "millions as remuneration" work in companies with incomes of BILLIONS and work much harder, longer and far more inspired and "cleverer" than your welfare beneficiary and road labourer.

The distribution of IQ, character and initiative amongst the population is not even, but extremely UNEVEN. If everyone gets paid fairly evenly then no-one would put any effort or thought into what they are doing.

If Einstein were still alive I would be quite happy that he was paid, or earned an income, thousands of times greater than me.

One of my investments is in a turnround situation, where the CEO (who has previously proved himself as a turnround expert in the same industry) has just been awarded cheap share options more than three times the value of my hard saved investment. Am I grizzling? No, I am rejoicing!

Oh really???
Then how do you explain Royal Bank of Scotland, Lehman Brothers, etc etc. Their CEOs were paid millions yet their collapse didn't exactly pay off for their shareholders and eventually poor old taxpayers did it.
The Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Crisis_Inquiry_Commission) concluded that the financial crisis was avoidable and was caused by "widespread failures in financial regulation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_regulation) and supervision," "dramatic failures of corporate governance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_governance) and risk management (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_management) at many systemically important financial institutions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_institutions)," "a combination of excessive borrowing, risky investments, and lack of transparency" by financial institutions

Major von Tempsky
29-08-2015, 11:41 AM
Same proportionality applies. Royal Bank of Scotland is still going and getting stronger http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/sharewatch/market-report-has-rbs-really-turned-itself-around-10473951.html. Lehman Bros as a proportion of the US, European, Chinese, Indian economies is minuscule.
You are ignoring everything that has been done to do fitness checks on banks and other financial institutions, to require stronger capital ratios, and other such measures.

I suggest you hide under the bed and read Revelations....

Sgt Pepper
29-08-2015, 12:18 PM
Same proportionality applies. Royal Bank of Scotland is still going and getting stronger http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/sharewatch/market-report-has-rbs-really-turned-itself-around-10473951.html. Lehman Bros as a proportion of the US, European, Chinese, Indian economies is minuscule.
You are ignoring everything that has been done to do fitness checks on banks and other financial institutions, to require stronger capital ratios, and other such measures.

I suggest you hide under the bed and read Revelations....

Major

So do I assume that as an Economist you approve of institutions being temporarily/permanently nationalised to save them. It seems to fly in the face of "private good" "public bad" mantra we have been hearing since 1984. Or is it the case of "privatise profit" "socialise debt"?? in so far as electricity prices I would make the following observation. I live in Dunedin, its a great place, but it doe have cold winter. Prior to Max Bradfords electricity industry reforms(!!) we had a city owned generator at Lake Mahinerangi. The city was compelled to sell it. The net result was electricity bills for consumer significantly increased, for no tangible benefit. As far as I know the electrons have remained the same. So yes in this city the electricity reforms have not exactly been popular for the relatively simple observation that the outcome was transferring even more money from my, and everyone elses wallet to theirs.

westerly
29-08-2015, 05:46 PM
A moments thought Daytr...and you would realize that the CEOs who get "millions as remuneration" work in companies with incomes of BILLIONS and work much harder, longer and far more inspired and "cleverer" than your welfare beneficiary and road labourer.

The distribution of IQ, character and initiative amongst the population is not even, but extremely UNEVEN. If everyone gets paid fairly evenly then no-one would put any effort or thought into what they are doing.

If Einstein were still alive I would be quite happy that he was paid, or earned an income, thousands of times greater than me.

One of my investments is in a turnround situation, where the CEO (who has previously proved himself as a turnround expert in the same industry) has just been awarded cheap share options more than three times the value of my hard saved investment. Am I grizzling? No, I am rejoicing!

High in his ivory tower sits the Major. He can tell you the cost of everything but ignores all the benefits.
One day the unintelligent beneficiary or the equally thick road labourer, may just wake up and attack the foundations of his edifice.
There is the needy in large numbers, and the greedy whose renumeration is so inflated they have come to believe they deserve it. Stick your hand in a bucket of water Major , pull it out and see what you and nearly all the grossly overpaid CEO ,s etc will leave the world.:)

westerly

neopoleII
29-08-2015, 06:00 PM
to westerly and daytr, thanks for the informed replies.
as just normal people of all different walks of life and knowledge we all get to (know and learn) the ways we do.
the beauty of this forum is we can express our thoughts as we know them or learnt them,
and then someone else comes along with new information......... as you guys have done regarding my last posts.
this now gives me an avenue of new information and investigative direction.
funny how in in this day and age, information and facts are still disseminated to ones point of view or angle to
get results to help ones agenda.
some of the things you said westerly i had never heard of....... which is a bit worrisome to me.
especially as i live in the affected wind turbine area and know alot of the big land owners in the area......
and yet....... never knew of what you said..... and im gathering that the long term locals didnt either......
makes me and the locals look like country bumpkins........ which we happily agree with..... except when its close to home
and were looking forward to a renewable powerstation in the backyard and wondered why it was scuttled!

shamingly thanking you

cheers

ps.... must read more local newspapers and council public release papers...... lol

neopoleII
29-08-2015, 06:00 PM
double posted again.....crappy xp.

Daytr
29-08-2015, 07:43 PM
Funny how you acquainted with what I wrote as some sort of socialism, its not. Where did I say everyone should get paid evenly?
As someone who has always been paid for performance its counter intuitive.
What I referred to was power generation and distribution and if structured correctly and generated more effectively would be substantially cheaper for consumers, rich or poor. The benefit of which would create growth and jobs in the capitalist system with just a far better balance to it.
Perhaps ask questions before writing off concepts you clearly don't understand.


A moments thought Daytr...and you would realize that the CEOs who get "millions as remuneration" work in companies with incomes of BILLIONS and work much harder, longer and far more inspired and "cleverer" than your welfare beneficiary and road labourer.

The distribution of IQ, character and initiative amongst the population is not even, but extremely UNEVEN. If everyone gets paid fairly evenly then no-one would put any effort or thought into what they are doing.

If Einstein were still alive I would be quite happy that he was paid, or earned an income, thousands of times greater than me.

One of my investments is in a turnround situation, where the CEO (who has previously proved himself as a turnround expert in the same industry) has just been awarded cheap share options more than three times the value of my hard saved investment. Am I grizzling? No, I am rejoicing!

Daytr
29-08-2015, 08:37 PM
What's the best way to beat the market & gain entry to the booming Auckland housing market? Buy a house from the government!
They are selling houses under book value & you can bet book value is substantially below market value.
And they will even lend you the money to help the developers, build properties they can sell on the open market!
If anyone else did this they would be sacked for negligence.
Its absolutely criminal.

Major von Tempsky
30-08-2015, 01:08 PM
What's the best way to beat the market & gain entry to the booming Auckland housing market? Buy a house from the government!
They are selling houses under book value & you can bet book value is substantially below market value.
And they will even lend you the money to help the developers, build properties they can sell on the open market!
If anyone else did this they would be sacked for negligence.
Its absolutely criminal.

I don't understand? Laughter! It's you that doesn't understand!

You (Daytr) advocated that the Government should invest more in Power Generation, despite it now effectively, functionally, being in the private sector and being in surplus and likely to be a lot more in surplus in the future. Page C20, The Press Saturday August 29 2015 "Mighty River Power Dips.
(MRP) This year it announced it would close Southdown, Contact recently announced plans to shut the Otahuhu power station in Auckland, and Genesis Energy plans to shut its last two coal fired units at Huntly at the end of 2018. In total more than 1,000 megawatts of generation is expected to come out of the system by the end of 2018 indicating the extent of the present power glut."

And Daytr wants the government to invest in more power generation? Ha! ha! ha!

Daytr
30-08-2015, 01:36 PM
Where did I say the government should invest in more power generation?
Do you get tired of debating things people didn't actually say?
As I said, you clearly don't understand it.

elZorro
31-08-2015, 06:37 AM
Increasingly, opinion articles are pointing out the lack of true oversight from our current government.

http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/77332/susan-guthrie-claims-we-need-start-thinking-quickly-about-effects-new-zealand-china%E2%80%99s?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+31+A ugust+2015

craic
31-08-2015, 08:46 AM
That should read "oversight from our government" - if Labour was in power, the same critics would continue to criticise - that is the nature of journalism. That's how they make a living and feed their families.
Increasingly, opinion articles are pointing out the lack of true oversight from our current government.

http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/77332/susan-guthrie-claims-we-need-start-thinking-quickly-about-effects-new-zealand-china%E2%80%99s?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+31+A ugust+2015

Major von Tempsky
31-08-2015, 02:40 PM
Do you mean "oversight" or the traditional socialist attempted micro-management (a la Helen Clark) and stuffing up the operation of markets?

elZorro
31-08-2015, 05:31 PM
Do you mean "oversight" or the traditional socialist attempted micro-management (a la Helen Clark) and stuffing up the operation of markets?

Craic and MVT: the first point is that some fairly bright political commentators and cartoonists are having a fielday with National's decisions and/or ineptitude at the moment. They are even creating new words, like bull****tery. Some of these commentators would have been happier with National in the past, but not now. National will have an uphill battle in the 2017 elections.

Have a look overseas, MVT. Has the US market done a particularly good job of tempering the QE laid on by the FED? No, they lapped it up with no corrections of any size for years, and now the FED starts talking about raising interest rates for once, billions of dollars are lost from the exchanges within days. The market cares only for profits, and now it is fearful. There is not a stable platform there in the USA, and there certainly wouldn't be one here, without govt intervention and oversight when it is needed. Labour did a particularly good job of that over nine years, the data is there at the stats office website, and someone with an economics degree could prove or disprove that - go for it.

Daytr
31-08-2015, 07:19 PM
After a damning report in regards Children's Services, National are now looking to privatize some of that as well.
National's strategy is to run something into the ground, and then say its better off in private hands & flog it off or contract it out!
To profit from things like mental health, state housing and vulnerable children or prisons for that matter, is deplorable.
Where is society heading if we as a nation don't take responsibility for looking after our needy and vulnerable?
Profiting from these sorts of services presents a massive conflict of interest, something John key wouldn't recognize if it smacked him in the face.
This Serco debacle should give all and sundry due warning of what we are in for under the corporatisation of government services.
Absolute chaos, corruption and other illegal activity followed up by the company responsible in full denial mode.
These are the most vulnerable people in our society.
Who will speak for them when they are being taken advantage of for the sake of saving money so a higher dividend can be paid to shareholders?
Absolute disgrace.

fungus pudding
31-08-2015, 07:40 PM
[QUOTE=elZorro;589133]Craic and MVT: the first point is that some fairly bright political commentators and cartoonists are having a fielday with National's decisions and/or ineptitude at the moment. They are even creating new words, like bull****tery. Some of these commentators would have been happier with National in the past, but not now. National will have an uphill battle in the 2017 elections.

National will be the govt. after then next election with Winston first as main coalition partner - that of course presupposes Little remains Labour's leader. Things could change if that changes.

fungus pudding
31-08-2015, 07:40 PM
[QUOTE=elZorro;589133]Craic and MVT: the first point is that some fairly bright political commentators and cartoonists are having a fielday with National's decisions and/or ineptitude at the moment. They are even creating new words, like bull****tery. Some of these commentators would have been happier with National in the past, but not now. National will have an uphill battle in the 2017 elections.

National will be the govt. after then next election with Winston first as main coalition partner - that of course presupposes Little remains Labour's leader. Things could change if that changes.

Daytr
31-08-2015, 08:22 PM
I love the way you put things, like they are facts. Such over confidence. Its certainly one question I'll be asking of Peters before the next election, as he wont be getting my vote if he sides with Key's National & I'm sure many of NZF supporters feel the same way.
I see National have taken another hit on the polls recently. Finally the electorate is waking up to this megalomaniac.

National will be the govt. after then next election with Winston first as main coalition partner - that of course presupposes Little remains Labour's leader. Things could change if that changes.[/QUOTE]

elZorro
31-08-2015, 08:44 PM
I love the way you put things, like they are facts. Such over confidence. Its certainly one question I'll be asking of Peters before the next election, as he wont be getting my vote if he sides with Key's National & I'm sure many of NZF supporters feel the same way.
I see National have taken another hit in the polls recently. Finally the electorate is waking up to this megalomaniac.


Daytr, FP likes to stir about Labour's Leader. No matter who it is, they've got to go, or Labour will have no chance - according to FP. It's because Labour has changed leaders too often in the past, that they're having to work harder than they would otherwise. Labour's MPs are all on the same page now. Andrew Little is there to stay for the duration, he'll make a meal of John Key in parliament soon enough. Helped by Winston Peters and NZF of course, and any word in the ear of Winston from a supporter like yourself, would be great.

More spindoctoring.. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11505697)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1508/S01114/bnz-worried-about-near-recession-as-key-talks-economy-up.htm?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Tuesday+1+S eptember+2015

Daytr
01-09-2015, 06:56 AM
Apparently funk is a new economic term! Pssst best not talk about it, nothing to see here, move along!
Meanwhile, sell government services, sell Landcorp land, sell state houses. Nothing to see here, move along.
Sign TPPA, pharmacy costs to surge, but that's ok apparently, nothing to see here, literally we aren't allowed to see it!
Immigration, apparently refugees aren't the right type of immigrant for John Key.
At a time when the world is suffering a massive refugee crisis, we are happy to have a flood of immigrants, but not more refugees!
According to Key there are countries that don't take any refugees, so we really are the good guys here!
Which countries? Probably the ones the refugees are coming from!

fungus pudding
01-09-2015, 07:34 AM
Daytr, FP likes to stir about Labour's Leader. No matter who it is, they've got to go, or Labour will have no chance - according to FP. It's because Labour has changed leaders too often in the past, that they're having to work harder than they would otherwise. Labour's MPs are all on the same page now. Andrew Little is there to stay for the duration, he'll make a meal of John Key in parliament soon enough. Helped by Winston Peters and NZF of course, and any word in the ear of Winston from a supporter like yourself, would be great.





Not so. I think Helen Clark was one of our best PM's. Little is not PM material. There are a couple in Labour who could make it. But that's for Labour to sort out - and they will, but possibly not in time for the next election.

macduffy
01-09-2015, 07:50 AM
Very disappointing that JK is so quickly dismissive of any suggestion that NZ could/should be doing more to help alleviate the Middle East refugee crisis. So much for moral leadership via that seat on the Security council of the UN!

:rolleyes:

Sgt Pepper
01-09-2015, 08:25 AM
I listened to John Key this morning that NZ would derive " huge economic benefits" from changing our flag. Naturally he didn't go into any detail or quantify the " huge economic benefits" as we all know all the intellectual heavy lifting is always left to Bill English.
Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato

Sgt Pepper
01-09-2015, 08:42 AM
Very disappointing that JK is so quickly dismissive of any suggestion that NZ could/should be doing more to help alleviate the Middle East refugee crisis. So much for moral leadership via that seat on the Security council of the UN!

:rolleyes:

To: John Key
From: Crosby Textor
Dear John
As per our discussion it is imperative at this point in your political career to undertake the following.

1. Don't appear too welcoming of any more immigrants, the poor and huddled masses are someone elses problem.

2. the exception to the above are high net worth immigrants who want a passport, a nice house in Howick, and don't mind writing the odd large cheque to the National Party

3. Photo ops: remember its RWC time again, make sure you take every opportunity to be seen with Ritchie, push your way to the front, use the DP Squad officers if necessary. Pretend you have an interest in Rugby, although avoid any detailed questioning about strategy, players etc otherwise your cover will be blown.

4. avoid, at all costs being filmed hammering anything in, that episode in Northland was REALLY embarrassing.

5.order a pizza, and open the door yourself when it arrives when One News is there.

6. don't forget EVER to send Mike Hosking a birthday card, presents etc.

7. PONYTAILS! need we say more?

PS. we have sounded out, discreetly of course, about getting another invitation to Balmoral. Nothing to report at this stage. Regarding your plan/desire for a Knighthood in 2018, all good.

iceman
01-09-2015, 08:46 AM
So Mr Little asks Kelvin Davies and Peeni Henare not to go to a charter school gathering in Whangarei. They ignore him and defy his wishes and go to support the school and its students.

Labour Party policy is to scrap Charter Schools, yet they Associate Education spokesman, Kelvin Davies, says "I think there are a number of anomalies in charter schools that need to be ironed out, to create a level playing field."

Very clear signals as always from Labour. What doesn't change though, is caucus' members open defiance of their Leader, whether it is Shearer, Cunliffe or Little.
Yet again they show how totally unprepared they are for Government !

Sgt Pepper
01-09-2015, 09:11 AM
So Mr Little asks Kelvin Davies and Peeni Henare not to go to a charter school gathering in Whangarei. They ignore him and defy his wishes and go to support the school and its students.

Labour Party policy is to scrap Charter Schools, yet they Associate Education spokesman, Kelvin Davies, says "I think there are a number of anomalies in charter schools that need to be ironed out, to create a level playing field."

Very clear signals as always from Labour. What doesn't change though, is caucus' members open defiance of their Leader, whether it is Shearer, Cunliffe or Little.
Yet again they show how totally unprepared they are for Government !

Indeed

Those liberal/ lefties harrumph, harrumph, cant do anything right harrumph, harrumph. Anyway back to Fox News.

elZorro
01-09-2015, 09:41 AM
So Mr Little asks Kelvin Davies and Peeni Henare not to go to a charter school gathering in Whangarei. They ignore him and defy his wishes and go to support the school and its students.

Labour Party policy is to scrap Charter Schools, yet they Associate Education spokesman, Kelvin Davies, says "I think there are a number of anomalies in charter schools that need to be ironed out, to create a level playing field."

Very clear signals as always from Labour. What doesn't change though, is caucus' members open defiance of their Leader, whether it is Shearer, Cunliffe or Little.
Yet again they show how totally unprepared they are for Government !

A RadioNZ listener, are we? I'm surprised you're not a raving leftie (like me) by now Iceman, because they generally give plenty of stick to the National Govt.
:)

Daytr
01-09-2015, 12:34 PM
Hey Iceman, pretty minor in the scheme of things compared to the list that Sgt Pepper just put together.
National have weekly scandals that makes this pale in comparison.
What's this week, oh yeah Serco/Mt Eden prison debacle continues, National still under investigation re sheepgate, children's services a complete mess, state housing a complete mess, DOC a complete mess. Debt rising, assets being sold to anyone who will take them.
A flag change that no one seems to really want or care about.
A TPPA agreement that 80% of the national is against including his own supporters.
We are still waiting in Northland for the outcome of the whole Mike Sabin thing!
There are many, many more...



So Mr Little asks Kelvin Davies and Peeni Henare not to go to a charter school gathering in Whangarei. They ignore him and defy his wishes and go to support the school and its students.

Labour Party policy is to scrap Charter Schools, yet they Associate Education spokesman, Kelvin Davies, says "I think there are a number of anomalies in charter schools that need to be ironed out, to create a level playing field."

Very clear signals as always from Labour. What doesn't change though, is caucus' members open defiance of their Leader, whether it is Shearer, Cunliffe or Little.
Yet again they show how totally unprepared they are for Government !

Major von Tempsky
01-09-2015, 05:03 PM
Poor old Daytr.

Totally out of touch.

Well 53% of the voters say he is out of touch.

elZorro
01-09-2015, 05:24 PM
To: John Key
From: Crosby Textor
Dear John
As per our discussion it is imperative at this point in your political career to undertake the following.

1. Don't appear too welcoming of any more immigrants, the poor and huddled masses are someone elses problem.

2. the exception to the above are high net worth immigrants who want a passport, a nice house in Howick, and don't mind writing the odd large cheque to the National Party

3. Photo ops: remember its RWC time again, make sure you take every opportunity to be seen with Ritchie, push your way to the front, use the DP Squad officers if necessary. Pretend you have an interest in Rugby, although avoid any detailed questioning about strategy, players etc otherwise your cover will be blown.

4. avoid, at all costs being filmed hammering anything in, that episode in Northland was REALLY embarrassing.

5.order a pizza, and open the door yourself when it arrives when One News is there.

6. don't forget EVER to send Mike Hosking a birthday card, presents etc.

7. PONYTAILS! need we say more?

PS. we have sounded out, discreetly of course, about getting another invitation to Balmoral. Nothing to report at this stage. Regarding your plan/desire for a Knighthood in 2018, all good.

To: Mark Textor
From: John Key

Dear Mark,

I'm hoping you can spare a day or two over here soon, to fight some fires in the media. There don't seem to be any cartoonists or believable political journalists on our side any more, what can we do about that? Your hourly rate of x thousand dollars an hour for a small team of helpers will be fine, we could do some more focus groups, and you could tell us what the voters want to hear.

I am also looking for a good line to use about the recession that's bearing down on us - you know, the one we'll never admit to until it's well developed. Occasionally I get a bit high-pitched and nervous when I'm talking live about the great and robust economy we have now, do you think anyone is noticing that, do you have a pitch-shifting device or other tactic?

Remember it was your idea (or was it Bill's?) that we would build election promises on us having a faster move into a budget surplus under National. The bloody public don't seem to have forgotten that Labour ran strong fiscal surpluses, and paid down old debt, while we have done the exact opposite. This is starting to wear thin, and frankly there aren't too many crown assets left to sell that would provide the funds we need, or are under the radar enough. Your advice please.

Nothing else to report, I'm still getting paid, we're all getting paid for doing stuff all, the polls are still on our side, it's just we want them to stay that way, come 2017. That's your job, Mark.

Warmest regards, John.

Daytr
01-09-2015, 07:29 PM
Haha MVT, I've never been one to follow the crowd, so no need for your concern.
Save it for the country, as it needs it, with where ShonKEY is leading us.



Poor old Daytr.

Totally out of touch.

Well 53% of the voters say he is out of touch.

elZorro
01-09-2015, 10:30 PM
Here's a bit of thinking about conservatives, related to the Abbott govt in Aussie.

https://newmatilda.com/2014/10/26/what-makes-them-tick-inside-mind-abbott-government

Conservatives tend to resist change, and to be keen on more inequality rather than less. It's dressed up of course - we can't all be well off, some do better than others, some work harder, etc. There are a lot of pointers here to the similar behaviours of the John Key govt. Are they all psychopaths? Or just more fearful than most of the population? Interesting.

Mark Textor was the principal strategist for Abbott in 2010 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Textor), and he has worked for many Liberal teams in various states. 'We will stop the boats..' huh? Does this explain John Key's aversion to more refugees? Helen Clark has the opposite viewpoint in her recent speech here, she sees the benefits for NZ, she's not fearful.

elZorro
02-09-2015, 06:21 AM
A Waikato Times editorial (possibly generated in Wellington) is rather scathing of John Key this morning.

http://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/waikato-times/20150902/281814282626579/TextView

By comparison with this weak attitude, Helen Clark's speech at AUT in late August received a massive applause.

http://www.undp.org/content/undp/en/home/presscenter/speeches/2015/08/26/helen-clark-bishop-sir-paul-reeves-memorial-lecture-2015-on-the-promise-and-challenge-of-2015-for-sustainable-development-.html

Toulouse - Luzern
02-09-2015, 08:41 AM
"Mark Textor was the principal strategist for Abbott in 2010, and he has worked for many Liberal teams in various states. 'We will stop the boats..' huh? Does this explain John Key's aversion to more refugees? Helen Clark has the opposite viewpoint in her recent speech here, she sees the benefits for NZ, she's not fearful.
Conservatives tend to resist change, and to be keen on more inequality rather than less. It's dressed up of course - we can't all be well off, some do better than others, some work harder, etc. There are a lot of pointers here to the similar behaviours of the John Key govt. Are they all psychopaths? Or just more fearful than most of the population? Interesting.

Mark Textor was the principal strategist for Abbott in 2010 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Textor), and he has worked for many Liberal teams in various states. 'We will stop the boats..' huh? Does this explain John Key's aversion to more refugees? Helen Clark has the opposite viewpoint in her recent speech here, she sees the benefits for NZ, she's not fearful."

She's not here.

Daytr
02-09-2015, 09:05 AM
Maybe she should be.
If Clark stood again against Key, I think she would hose in.


"

She's not here.

Daytr
02-09-2015, 09:09 AM
7568

From Pam Corkery, classic.

Major von Tempsky
02-09-2015, 09:34 AM
I'm looking forward to Corbyn becoming leader of the UK Labour Party, can't be long now. Several leading Labour MPs have already refused to serve in his shadow cabinet. There'll be a trail of blood dripping from his back as he walks the corridors of Westminster :-)

Daytr
02-09-2015, 09:45 AM
How about Trump being the leading candidate for the right in the States MVT.
Now that's embarrassing ! Almost as embarrassing as the Republican's last president.

westerly
02-09-2015, 11:22 AM
I'm looking forward to Corbyn becoming leader of the UK Labour Party, can't be long now. Several leading Labour MPs have already refused to serve in his shadow cabinet. There'll be a trail of blood dripping from his back as he walks the corridors of Westminster :-)

Scary eh , a move to the left where Labour should be, Andrew would be wise to follow suit.
westerly

Sgt Pepper
02-09-2015, 11:23 AM
I'm looking forward to Corbyn becoming leader of the UK Labour Party, can't be long now. Several leading Labour MPs have already refused to serve in his shadow cabinet. There'll be a trail of blood dripping from his back as he walks the corridors of Westminster :-)

Major
You seem to spend a lot of time worrying about British politics..There is so much more you could worry about right here.
1 sheepgate

2. Finding a job for Murray when the auditor Generals investigation is completed.

3. finding an excuse for John and Bill when they fail to deliver a surplus yet again.

Lets talk US politics. If you could vote in the next US Presidential election and had a choice between Hilary and Donald you would chose??.( I must confess I think I know the answer).

elZorro
02-09-2015, 08:10 PM
I'm enjoying most of the political cartoons these days, they are just so clever, this one from Emmerson recently.

It has just come to my attention that if any of us lefties on this thread do come up with some really interesting little-known facts about the current government, it is likely to be carefully erased by someone, or some thing. Who gives anyone the right to do that in an open forum? Sure, if we're being offensive, demeaning, lying, trolling, abusive, swearing, I agree with that. But I'd like to know who removed an image of an email that proves John Key's govt was/is using the services of Crosby-Textor, at least up until the 2014 elections. I'll just post it up again.

I am about to get myself a tin hat.:scared:

craic
02-09-2015, 08:46 PM
Cartoonists can be funny but seldom become Prime Ministers - with the exception of Helen Clarke - but her cartoon wasn't really hers, was it?

elZorro
02-09-2015, 08:59 PM
Cartoonists can be funny but seldom become Prime Ministers - with the exception of Helen Clarke - but her cartoon wasn't really hers, was it?

Craic, I was hoping you'd be looking a bit deeper into my last post (not a pun). It's Helen Clark, no "e". It wasn't a cartoon as such, and it was for charity- not a Labour party fundraiser - she was hoping to get them some extra funds. She signed the back of the frame, but that was enough in a court of law, apparently. The signed picture was bought for a higher price and destroyed by some of Helen's friends, so no-one lost out. And that's about the worst thing she did on her own bat, the whole time she was in office? What were some of the good things, have you got a few pages for that?

Just wondering what you'd think if an anonymous person(s) deleted part of one of your posts and didn't tell you. Long after it had been posted, too. I think some National Party people have spotted it, and prevailed on the moderators here to have it removed. Sorry, that can't be done, I posted nothing but the truth.

Sgt Pepper
02-09-2015, 09:33 PM
Craic, I was hoping you'd be looking a bit deeper into my last post (not a pun). It's Helen Clark, no "e". It wasn't a cartoon as such, and it was for charity- not a Labour party fundraiser - she was hoping to get them some extra funds. She signed the back of the frame, but that was enough in a court of law, apparently. The signed picture was bought for a higher price and destroyed by some of Helen's friends, so no-one lost out. And that's about the worst thing she did on her own bat, the whole time she was in office? What were some of the good things, have you got a few pages for that?

Just wondering what you'd think if an anonymous person(s) deleted part of one of your posts and didn't tell you. Long after it had been posted, too. I think some National Party people have spotted it, and prevailed on the moderators here to have it removed. Sorry, that can't be done, I posted nothing but the truth.
EZ
I sometimes wonder if National will get to the stage of having an informal " enemies list"

elZorro
02-09-2015, 09:57 PM
EZ
I sometimes wonder if National will get to the stage of having an informal " enemies list"

Sgt Pepper, you might be on it already, with your perceptive rebuttal of right-wing thought processes..Daytr and Westerly could be on the list too. Real stirrers they are.. W69 seems to be on the fence sometimes, I can't figure him out.

I need to get a copy of Catcher in the Rye, could be some answers there :)

Daytr
03-09-2015, 06:39 AM
I would say there is no doubt I'm on it, especially after running a social media campaign during the bi-election! haha
But I can think of a few more high profile people who have been targets.
John Campbell being one and the other was the ridiculous resources and attention in going after Dotcom.
Apparently piracy, even though he didn't commit piracy, just provided the infrastructure that can be used for that purpose, is the biggest threat to NZ.
So much so John Key used his private police service, the GCSB that was run by an old school mate of ShonKEY.
No hang on its a threat to big business in the US, not NZ. But hell lets not stop us breaking the law with illegal intercepts.
Who else can change the law retrospectively to make something that was illegal, suddenly legal? Corruption at its best.

craic
03-09-2015, 08:12 AM
Maybe the labour party should have a POLICY to try and win the next election instead of all the conspiratorial crap that they publish here and elsewhere? The electors simply turn off to this rubbish which belongs on the American form of reality TV. Maybe its the kardishan factor or maybe the Kardishan Party?

Daytr
03-09-2015, 08:23 AM
Both Campbell and Dotcom were targeted by very close mates of John Key.
No conspiracy there. Fact !

And I think you would be surprised what political parties get up to in the name of trying to retain power.

Another fact. Mike Sabin is CEO of the soon to be biggest resort in NZ, owned by the Chinese and to be developed in Northland.
They need plenty of support from local & regional council....
Now why on earth would you appoint someone like that?
Who owes him? What can he deliver?
Anyone heard anything more on the case re the "prominent New Zealander" !?
Dodgy as hell!

Sgt Pepper
03-09-2015, 02:19 PM
Both Campbell and Dotcom were targeted by very close mates of John Key.
No conspiracy there. Fact !

And I think you would be surprised what political parties get up to in the name of trying to retain power.

Another fact. Mike Sabin is CEO of the soon to be biggest resort in NZ, owned by the Chinese and to be developed in Northland.
They need plenty of support from local & regional council....
Now why on earth would you appoint someone like that?
Who owes him? What can he deliver?
Anyone heard anything more on the case re the "prominent New Zealander" !?
Dodgy as hell!

Daytr

John Keys action plan

subject action
1. Budget surplus hope the electorate will forget about it
2. Refugee quota wait for what fcous groups say.
3: Murray McCully/sheepgate : cross fingers and hope for the best
4: Maurice Williamson make concerned mutterings,etc but revert to type and do nothing

elZorro
03-09-2015, 05:27 PM
Daytr

John Keys action plan

subject action
1. Budget surplus - hope the electorate will forget about it
2. Refugee quota - wait for what focus groups say.
3: Murray McCully/sheepgate - cross fingers and hope for the best
4: Maurice Williamson - make concerned mutterings,etc but revert to type and do nothing

Yet another misogynist National MP, how many do they have?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11506926

neopoleII
03-09-2015, 06:35 PM
can someone please call me mentally handicapped..... it would solve my dilemma.
about a year ago the labour party was banging on hammer and tongs that we should not
send soldiers to the middle east to fix someones problems.......
and now the labour party is banging hammer and tongs that we arent taking enough
refugees from these war torn middle east countries......
so does this mean that we should not help protect foreign citizen when they face war in their lands
but welcome them to our land when they lose their homeland from perpetrators who faced no international resistance?
it seems like forced global migration at the end of a bad persons gun with no consequences.
so how many refugees should the world take from these wartorn countries.......
the entire population that is deemed unworthy by ISIS?

we could however take the war to the bad guys and give the land back to its citizens.....
or is that too aggressive?

elZorro
03-09-2015, 07:10 PM
can someone please call me mentally handicapped..... it would solve my dilemma.
about a year ago the labour party was banging on hammer and tongs that we should not
send soldiers to the middle east to fix someones problems.......
and now the labour party is banging hammer and tongs that we arent taking enough
refugees from these war torn middle east countries......
so does this mean that we should not help protect foreign citizen when they face war in their lands
but welcome them to our land when they lose their homeland from perpetrators who faced no international resistance?
it seems like forced global migration at the end of a bad persons gun with no consequences.
so how many refugees should the world take from these wartorn countries.......
the entire population that is deemed unworthy by ISIS?

we could however take the war to the bad guys and give the land back to its citizens.....
or is that too aggressive?

Neopole II, certainly over there, nothing is sacred as far as ISIS is concerned - not lives, ancient Roman artefacts, nothing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/if-these-extraordinarily-powerful-images-of-a-dead-syrian-child-washed-up-on-a-beach-dont-change-europes-attitude-to-refugees-what-will-10482757.html

But any war over there will be a protracted situation, maybe we could do our bit in other ways. John Key's govt seem to be the odd ones out as far as extra refugees go.

elZorro
04-09-2015, 06:38 AM
Even pro-National Rawden on TV1 this morning, is talking about the reluctance of the Key Govt to do the right thing regarding some more refugees, in a timely manner.

Spotted this article about the signs of a world-wide recession, when NZ is mentioned we seem to escape the worst, but the author thinks the Canterbury rebuild is still in full flight. It's dropping away.

http://www.goodreturns.co.nz/article/976503326/is-a-global-recession-approaching.html?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Friday+4+Se ptember+2015

macduffy
04-09-2015, 07:13 AM
It's not hard to find a gloomy economist if you go looking for one, eZ.

Not one of your better early morning reports. C'mon, you can do better than that!

;)

craic
04-09-2015, 07:24 AM
Suggest we take 10,000 each of the following -British (UK) Irish, Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, Belgian, French with others in reserve. That would free up 100,000 places in Europe for the collection of mid-eastern migrants. Those permitted to come here would be required to pay their own fares to get here and be responsible for their own survival here. When the process was seen to be the cracking success that it would be, the numbers might be repeated.

Daytr
04-09-2015, 07:29 AM
Anyone but a Muslim Craic?


Suggest we take 10,000 each of the following -British (UK) Irish, Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, Belgian, French with others in reserve. That would free up 100,000 places in Europe for the collection of mid-eastern migrants. Those permitted to come here would be required to pay their own fares to get here and be responsible for their own survival here. When the process was seen to be the cracking success that it would be, the numbers might be repeated.

craic
04-09-2015, 08:46 AM
I never heard of country called Muslim.

Daytr
04-09-2015, 08:54 AM
Haha touche !

I don't think its about NZ taking in thousands of refugees, but its about setting an example so I think lifting the number to 1,000 or 1500 sends a good message to the international community. Again John Key has come out looking ShonKEY on this matter. Firstly showing no empathy for the situation & two now that there is has been a public backlash & its obvious that a lot of NZers think we should be doing something more he's folding. FlaKEY !

Where is America in all this? They have caused a lot of the issues (not all by a long chalk) in the Mid/East. Are they putting their hand up to take a large number of refugees? I'm happy to be corrected, but to date from what I have seen they have been pretty much absent from the debate.

craic
04-09-2015, 09:50 AM
America was founded on refugees. Neither John Key nor Obama or the many other leader can simply wave an arm of welcome. This is firstly a trade by criminals who charge fortunes to people to dump them on a foreign shore and the more that can make it, the more they can charge. Many will not be genuine refugees as we know it but various types who can get the money together by fair or foul means. Many unfortunates will die in this mess but that's part of the human condition - look at the number who died in the Japanese occupation of china, umpteen millions. The world wars etc. We live on a crowded planet and behave like rats in a barrel.

Daytr
04-09-2015, 10:11 AM
No but they can accept more than they are now & process them efficiently & humanely.
Many are actual refugees escaping civil wars & ISIS etc, some of which has been created by Western intervention.
So what's your solution?

craic
04-09-2015, 11:26 AM
I don't have a solution - nor does anyone else.

macduffy
04-09-2015, 11:49 AM
I don't have a solution - nor does anyone else.

No, no-one has a solution but some are doing more than others to help alleviate the situation. Germany for one, although that's not universally popular with German voters. A bit of leadership from members of the UN Security Council is called for. Hey, that's us!

westerly
04-09-2015, 07:01 PM
No but they can accept more than they are now & process them efficiently & humanely.
Many are actual refugees escaping civil wars & ISIS etc, some of which has been created by Western intervention.
So what's your solution?

The United Nations appears powerless to achieve any worthwhile solution to the current refugee/economic migrant problem mainly because the United States, Russia, China and their various allies will never come to any agreement which goes against their own selfish interests.
The most logical step is to completely ban the supply of weapons to any country or group involved in civil war. Cannot see that happening.
Many children die each day from disease, hunger, etc. but their plight is pretty well ignored, show a photo of a drowned child and the calls to accept more refugees becomes strident.
If we take a few more families it won't make much difference but I would be more sympathetic if some of the muslim countries were more active in the refugee problem. As for the economic migrants especially the single men who appear to be predominant in both the refugee and migrant categories they do not show any loyalty to their own country so why would they benefit us?

westerly

elZorro
04-09-2015, 07:04 PM
No, no-one has a solution but some are doing more than others to help alleviate the situation. Germany for one, although that's not universally popular with German voters. A bit of leadership from members of the UN Security Council is called for. Hey, that's us!

Yes, that's dead right, MacDuffy, time for some leadership. Do we have a statesman in the house?

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/283242/refugee-crisis-pressure-builds-on-pm

This is certainly one issue where the National Govt can't swamp out the social media with their own C-T take.
Bryce Edwards, back in June. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11468045

Everybody's getting on board, so the govt will have to do something pronto. This, of course, goes against the grain. National's backers are keen on more inequality, bringing in refugees won't help, as scarce govt resources will need to be spent setting these people up. They'll need a bigger public sector to do that, also in the wrong direction for the ACT look-a-likes. Then there is the fear factor of the unknown, the conservative streak showing again. They don't like change.

So here we are, one of the lower populated and unpolluted western societies, with a higher-wage economy, yet ranking 90th in the world for our per capita intake of refugees. We can do our part, and we must be seen to do our part. A Labour/Green govt would have acted on this by now.

Daytr
04-09-2015, 07:20 PM
Which Muslim countries Westerly?
Most of the ones I can think of they are either leaving in droves i.e. where the refugees are coming from or they are already inundated like Indonesia.
Remember a lot of the Mid/East countries hate each other so it can life threatening to go from one to the other.
The UN needs to start putting pressure on these regimes, like Syria.
Iraq is probably worse now than when Saddam was in power.
Egypt & Libya are a mess.
Saudi Arabia is hardly a shining light for human rights or democracy either.
However is up to the West to force our values on them?
In regards the murder and devastation that is going on I think it certainly is, but that doesn't necessarily mean there has to be democracy as we know it, even though that's what us Westerners would prefer.
If the rest of the world stopped buying their oil, they would have to change & so would we to be frank & that would be a good thing all round.



The United Nations appears powerless to achieve any worthwhile solution to the current refugee/economic migrant problem mainly because the United States, Russia, China and their various allies will never come to any agreement which goes against their own selfish interests.
The most logical step is to completely ban the supply of weapons to any country or group involved in civil war. Cannot see that happening.
Many children die each day from disease, hunger, etc. but their plight is pretty well ignored, show a photo of a drowned child and the calls to accept more refugees becomes strident.
If we take a few more families it won't make much difference but I would be more sympathetic if some of the muslim countries were more active in the refugee problem. As for the economic migrants especially the single men who appear to be predominant in both the refugee and migrant categories they do not show any loyalty to their own country so why would they benefit us?

westerly

iceman
05-09-2015, 07:05 AM
So much for "flogging of the assets"! Maybe we should be looking at partly privatising a few more as I'm sure EZ, Westerly, Sgt Pepper and Daytr would wholeheartedly agree with, seeing the State has done so well from it :-)
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11508152

elZorro
05-09-2015, 08:53 AM
So much for "flogging of the assets"! Maybe we should be looking at partly privatising a few more as I'm sure EZ, Westerly, Sgt Pepper and Daytr would wholeheartedly agree with, seeing the State has done so well from it :-)
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11508152

Regarding AirNZ, it was Labour under the right-wing drive of Roger Douglas who privatised the airline in the first place, with majority NZ shareholder caveats (1989, they lost the next election heavily), and Labour under Helen Clark who were smart enough to save it about 11 years later. Later on in that article Brian Gaynor mentions the power company dividends. These could be seen as extra taxes on NZers, because over the last few years power consumption has dropped, we've been able to retire older thermal generators, the hydro hasn't needed much work, and yet power prices have gone up over inflation rates. Also, the competing power companies may not always be acting in the best interests of the nation as a whole, and this will only show up in the years to come.

AirNZ, yes, that's a success story more recently. Special case though.

westerly
05-09-2015, 05:35 PM
Which Muslim countries Westerly?
Most of the ones I can think of they are either leaving in droves i.e. where the refugees are coming from or they are already inundated like Indonesia.
Remember a lot of the Mid/East countries hate each other so it can life threatening to go from one to the other.
The UN needs to start putting pressure on these regimes, like Syria.
Iraq is probably worse now than when Saddam was in power.
Egypt & Libya are a mess.
Saudi Arabia is hardly a shining light for human rights or democracy either.
However is up to the West to force our values on them?
In regards the murder and devastation that is going on I think it certainly is, but that doesn't necessarily mean there has to be democracy as we know it, even though that's what us Westerners would prefer.
If the rest of the world stopped buying their oil, they would have to change & so would we to be frank & that would be a good thing all round.

I do not think we should force our values on Muslims just as they should not expect us to change our society to fit their beliefs. As you say all the countries with civil strife are predominantly Muslim.
Maybe that should be a cause for concern as it appears a common religion is not enough on its own to enable the various sects to live harmoniously together.
The Washington Post has said that Saudi Arabia and the 6 wealthy Persian Gulf states are taking no Syrian refugees.

westerly

Daytr
05-09-2015, 06:34 PM
Sorry the comments re forcing change of values etch wasn't directed at you but a general comment.
Re Saudis etc I agree if that's the case, but as I said many different sects within the Muslim world don't get on.
This is an international problem that requires an international response & as Sgt Pepper said we are on the UN security council & we should be setting a good example. However that's not to say others shouldn't as well, particularly the US.
It appears we may now indeed be increasing our intake (yet to be confirmed) by a measly 100 refugees. Well at least its a start.
Key has looked particularly bad in regards this issue & even the young Nats. have pushed for NZ to do something more than we are currently.


I do not think we should force our values on Muslims just as they should not expect us to change our society to fit their beliefs. As you say all the countries with civil strife are predominantly Muslim.
Maybe that should be a cause for concern as it appears a common religion is not enough on its own to enable the various sects to live harmoniously together.
The Washington Post has said that Saudi Arabia and the 6 wealthy Persian Gulf states are taking no Syrian refugees.

westerly

craic
05-09-2015, 09:03 PM
How about redirecting the lotto profits to the refugee problem? I'm sure a twelve-month redirect could finance a whole boatload of them. Had my biggest scare in years tonight when one of my lotto lines had five numbers right. Just one digit short of a million and even the bonus number would have given me twenty grand. As it is I get five hundred and seventy odd dollars, the biggest I've had in donkeys years. And HB managed to keep the Log of Wood tonight. I think I'll have a bourbon or two instead of cocoa tonight.

Daytr
06-09-2015, 07:16 AM
Nice win for the Bay Craic ! So will you be donating your winnings? ;-)

Saw a couple of simple statements that underline where Western values sit at the moment.
"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people"

Europe is struggling for growth and or employment.
Instead of looking at the migrant issue as a threat, why not start building accommodation for them, and create an opportunity out of a horrible situation. Create jobs for the refugees and the high unemployment in their own youth.
Seems a better spend than continually bailing out banks etc.

craic
06-09-2015, 07:49 AM
Early morning radio clarified a number of things for me regarding the situation with refugees in Europe.
1) there are a flood of individuals from Afghanistan and Bangladesh joining the crowd who are not refugees and many are destroying their papers and claiming to be Syrians.
2) The rules are that refugees must be assessed and processed by the first EU country they enter - this is not happening, they are being allowed to proceed to the country they want to go to, refugees or not.
3) this crisis is not going to end with refugees - desirable EU countries are going to be flooded with Asians, Africans and others who will be taken to the borders by criminal traffickers and left there with nothing as they are now.
4) the German population will absorb nearly a million this year. That would equate to 50,000 in NZ in one year. If we allow a moderate cost of $10,000 per head for a year, that would cost us $500 million in the first year.
People smuggling will spread very quickly to other parts of the world.

macduffy
06-09-2015, 08:42 AM
Yes, craic, it's a complex problem. Must say that my sympathy for the refugees is tempered somewhat by their insistence on being accepted by the country of their choice. Not blaming them for that but it does seem that there is an element of opportunistic economic migration taking advantage of the situation.

Daytr
06-09-2015, 08:47 AM
Craic, I am reading from your post many of the problems that are being faced, but no solutions or how NZ can assist.
I don't think anyone is suggesting NZ take in 50,000 refugees. We currently are taking in 750 & there has been a call to double that to 1500 and that's the highest number I have seen suggested. Others are suggesting raising it to 1,000 or 1250. So the cost would be approximately 1 50th of what you are suggesting, if the cost per person was $10k and we are already spending the majority of that on the current 750 quota.
People smuggling has already exploded. And yes there are plenty that are not 'refugees' so they all need to be processed to identify who is legitimate and who is not. I'm not saying its easy, its not, but the solution of doing nothing certainly isn't working. Building walls and fences seems to be the method of choice. All NZ can do is set a good example and be a good global citizen and that is all that many people are asking of the government. Raising the quota to 1250 or 1500 is hardly going to break us, but it sends a very good message to the global community.

I suppose the big questions for the West is that do we engage in the various wars? The difficulty is who's side does the UN take in regards Syria for instance. Russia is openly supporting Assad. As far as I know there are three distinct factions including the current regime fighting in Syria. Then there is ISIS who I think want to engage the West in on the ground troops. Perhaps we should, but unfortunately the Iraqi military & government for instance has shown very little resistance or willingness to fight themselves. Then there is Libya & Egypt. Unfortunately the Arab spring which I was hopeful for instead has delivered chaos. The Saudis and the wealthy emirate sates as I can see are doing very little. Perhaps its time to put the squeeze on them & stop buying their oil & put pressure on the whole region to start sorting out these very large scale & complex conflicts, as until they do the refugees will keep coming. The US has to take some leadership in this issue. They have been quick to go in their with drones and their military in the past. But pretty much absent from the resulting chaos that they have partly created.

elZorro
06-09-2015, 06:04 PM
I have had a bit of think about the refugee situation while I was delivering Labour postcards to a mixed set of streets. Some posh, some not so flash, but all were palaces compared to sleeping rough, with no water or food nearby. Craic, you are letting the exceptions to the rule define your view, and that can be done with any argument. Some farmers might be poor livestock handlers, or tax dodgers, for example. That doesn't mean I should have a poor attitude towards all farmers, or farm workers. There is a spectrum of factors across any argument, and a hard and fast rule is usually wrong.

I was a bit worried by the statistic I heard on Q&A or The Nation, of only 25% of refugees having a job within the first 2 years. We know that it's very hard to get anywhere without more than one minimum waged adult income per household. This comes back to the lack of new manufacturing jobs, these are pivotal to mop up some of the unemployed here. Regional manufacturing would be even better, as the cost of housing there is lower than in Auckland, and there is no strain on infrastructure, as it's ready to go.

Inequality, that's what it comes back to, and John Key's govt wants more of it, so we won't be bringing in many more refugees if we can help it. We'll find any excuse we can, and there are plenty of them, we'll bluff our way through this.

On the flag debate, I'm thinking it's a win-win for Labour: the fern is the main logo the Labour Party have used since 1916, there are a lot of older people who hate the idea of changing the flag, and it might affect their voting in 2017, plus the choices have been made by a panel that knows very little about design, so that it's self-defeating. We have a choice of three lookalikes, or one bad koru. None of which scream NEW ZEALAND. Not that I know what that would look like, but I'm not seeing it, and neither are many others.

Hoop
06-09-2015, 08:01 PM
Belg ... Maybe we don't mind which two of the major parties get in..eh...both are very good stable political parties with Centre bias

A reference site to look at...Below is an URL to a list of 177 countries ranked from 1 being the worst to 177 the best place in the world using the Failed States index formalae.......I suggest you look at the bottom of the rankings...eh?...hate to see you moving to Somalia (1st) or Chad (2nd)... ;)



Belg since NZ (172) is not good enough..I hope you realise that there isn't many better stable countries in the world to live in....but you are in luck as NZ although close it is not Godzone...Finland (177) has that honour.

So I guess you are moving to one of these better than NZ Countries..eh?..Denmark (173) Switzerland (174) Sweden (175) Norway (176) or Finland (177)...I hope when you move you'll consider flying AirNZ...(Disc: I'm a shareholder:D)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Failed_States_Index

Above is the first post on this thread written 13th November 2011...
So...with the 5th National Govt being in power since November 2008 how well is NZ doing to this point in time? ...The update of the best place in the world using the Failed States index formalae is HERE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Fragile_States_Index)..

The above mentioned countries are still at the top, NZ is doing very well in 7th place and closing the gap on the top 5, however Luxembourg (6th) has overtaken us and Australia (9th) a couple of places back is gaining on us..

DISC...Not a AirNZ shareholder :)

elZorro
06-09-2015, 10:04 PM
Above is the first post on this thread written 13th November 2011...
So...with the 5th National Govt being in power since November 2008 how well is NZ doing to this point in time? ...The update of the best place in the world using the Failed States index formalae is HERE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Fragile_States_Index)..

The above mentioned countries are still at the top, NZ is doing very well in 7th place and closing the gap on the top 5, however Luxembourg (6th) has overtaken us and Australia (9th) a couple of places back is gaining on us..

DISC...Not a AirNZ shareholder :)

Actually Hoop, the first post was written by Belgarion, you have the default first post after he had all his posts removed by request. We all lost access to some very good posts that day.

So NZ has dropped back by two positions on the Fragile State scale, which is one measure we can look at. If you're looking at inequality, we're about in the middle of the OECD table. Not great for a country that started out wanting to be egalitarian. We'll have to watch out for that. I was told off by a homeowner/bach owner while walking within the Queen's Chain of a famous river's edge and lake a couple of years ago, apparently because I didn't have a fishing rod at the time. Just one instance where some people like to think they are a cut above, and will try it on. ACT voters?

craic
07-09-2015, 07:23 AM
I have vague memories of a case some years ago that established that the Queens Chain is a myth in NZ. It is an English law that was never adopted by NZ. I could be wrong. Same as a Cord of wood.

Daytr
07-09-2015, 07:42 AM
Huh! Same thing happened to me on the weekend! I was on a beach front public reserve in front of someone's house and they told me to get off private property! The arrogance!

UOTE=elZorro;590186]Actually Hoop, the first post was written by Belgarion, you have the default first post after he had all his posts removed by request. We all lost access to some very good posts that day.

So NZ has dropped back by two positions on the Fragile State scale, which is one measure we can look at. If you're looking at inequality, we're about in the middle of the OECD table. Not great for a country that started out wanting to be egalitarian. We'll have to watch out for that. I was told off by a homeowner/bach owner while walking within the Queen's Chain of a famous river's edge and lake a couple of years ago, apparently because I didn't have a fishing rod at the time. Just one instance where some people like to think they are a cut above, and will try it on. ACT voters?[/QUOTE]

Sgt Pepper
07-09-2015, 08:40 AM
regarding refugee quotas and John Keys response
I suspect the following scenario has played out.

Pressure on the government which has been reflected in urgent focus group opinion canvassing.

I predict: there will be a symbolic chartered flight of Syrian refugees, John Key will be there to meet and greet assuming a full media turnout in order to leverage as much political capital as possible.

Daytr
07-09-2015, 08:49 AM
Yep, massive backflip from Key. It was only I think 10 days ago he was saying no lift in the number of refugees.
From what I gather its a piddly 100 extra a year. Better than nothing but still pathetic.
NZ took many refugees in post WWII and from Cambodia & Vietnam. They were welcomed and they given a lot of community assistance.

So Key is happy to have record immigration, but just not on humanitarian terms, purely on economic terms, or another words those who can afford it.
Is this the example we want our leaders setting for our children?
As most on here know I don't want an exploding NZ population & would like to see immigration reigned in significantly.
However not at the cost of denying refugees a chance at a new life of safety and security.

Interesting that some of the right are pro immigration, just not refugees.
Its also great to see many right wing supporters have been critical of their own party & particularly Key on this issue.
Good for them !

Hoop
07-09-2015, 09:01 AM
Actually Hoop, the first post was written by Belgarion, you have the default first post after he had all his posts removed by request. We all lost access to some very good posts that day.

So NZ has dropped back by two positions on the Fragile State scale, which is one measure we can look at. If you're looking at inequality, we're about in the middle of the OECD table. Not great for a country that started out wanting to be egalitarian. We'll have to watch out for that. I was told off by a homeowner/bach owner while walking within the Queen's Chain of a famous river's edge and lake a couple of years ago, apparently because I didn't have a fishing rod at the time. Just one instance where some people like to think they are a cut above, and will try it on. ACT voters?

Really ELZ?..Have a look at who started the thread.:)
No!!!... NZ dropped back one place from 6th to 7th...Hoop quote..."..closing the gap on the top 5.."

ELZ you must be more observant

Daytr
07-09-2015, 09:09 AM
So tripling Government debt doesn't rate on this scale obviously Hoop?
Reliance on a vulnerable dairy sector either?
An out of control property market that its own reserve bank says is a threat to NZs economy.
NZ has more risk instability now than it has had since the 1980s.
It has also gone from being a very cheap place to live to a country that is getting unaffordable for its own citizens with exploding electricity & house prices.

Seems this index is not particularly comprehensive or just doesn't take in the bleedin obvious.
It seems our current measure of doing well, is that other countries like Australia are doing worse.
Interesting to note that Australia also has a conservative government...



Really ELZ?..Have a look at who started the thread.:)
No!!!... NZ dropped back one place from 6th to 7th...Hoop quote..."..closing the gap on the top 5.."

ELZ you must be more observant

Sgt Pepper
07-09-2015, 10:35 AM
Early morning radio clarified a number of things for me regarding the situation with refugees in Europe.
1) there are a flood of individuals from Afghanistan and Bangladesh joining the crowd who are not refugees and many are destroying their papers and claiming to be Syrians.
2) The rules are that refugees must be assessed and processed by the first EU country they enter - this is not happening, they are being allowed to proceed to the country they want to go to, refugees or not.
3) this crisis is not going to end with refugees - desirable EU countries are going to be flooded with Asians, Africans and others who will be taken to the borders by criminal traffickers and left there with nothing as they are now.
4) the German population will absorb nearly a million this year. That would equate to 50,000 in NZ in one year. If we allow a moderate cost of $10,000 per head for a year, that would cost us $500 million in the first year.
People smuggling will spread very quickly to other parts of the world.

Craic
It is a very complex problem with economic and political drivers. When talking numbers I concede that the initial number must also involve a multiple as family reunification entitlements will kick in. I am not sure what the formula is but the UK , I believe is clamping down on entitlements of extended family members being eligible. Also regarding people exiting Afghanistan, why are they not remaining in Iran, or is Iran not welcoming??

Daytr
07-09-2015, 10:46 AM
Does the current quota include reunification?
On the radio this morning we haven't even filled our quota of 750 for many years & apparently the Mangere centre has the capacity to handle 2,000 refugees per year. So Key who has been saying, we are doing our bit is again talking BS.
The man just straight lies again and again to the NZ people, hoping that we are dumb enough to swallow his tripe.


Craic
It is a very complex problem with economic and political drivers. When talking numbers I concede that the initial number must also involve a multiple as family reunification entitlements will kick in. I am not sure what the formula is but the UK , I believe is clamping down on entitlements of extended family members being eligible. Also regarding people exiting Afghanistan, why are they not remaining in Iran, or is Iran not welcoming??

westerly
07-09-2015, 11:07 AM
I have vague memories of a case some years ago that established that the Queens Chain is a myth in NZ. It is an English law that was never adopted by NZ. I could be wrong. Same as a Cord of wood.

Queen Victoria ordered that the 22 yard public land strip around all lakes ,rivers, etc be implemented as surveying took place. Unfortunately there were many areas where it was never applied.
If you want to know where there is public right of way Walking Access New Zealand have an excellent web site with easy access to maps of all NZ showing public access.
westerly.

craic
07-09-2015, 11:10 AM
Craic
It is a very complex problem with economic and political drivers. When talking numbers I concede that the initial number must also involve a multiple as family reunification entitlements will kick in. I am not sure what the formula is but the UK , I believe is clamping down on entitlements of extended family members being eligible. Also regarding people exiting Afghanistan, why are they not remaining in Iran, or is Iran not welcoming??
Reading UK paper interviews, seems they were ill treated, abused at and cursed in Iran and fled the place.

Hoop
07-09-2015, 11:41 AM
So tripling Government debt doesn't rate on this scale obviously Hoop?
Reliance on a vulnerable dairy sector either?
An out of control property market that its own reserve bank says is a threat to NZs economy.
NZ has more risk instability now than it has had since the 1980s.
It has also gone from being a very cheap place to live to a country that is getting unaffordable for its own citizens with exploding electricity & house prices.

Seems this index is not particularly comprehensive or just doesn't take in the bleedin obvious.
It seems our current measure of doing well, is that other countries like Australia are doing worse.
Interesting to note that Australia also has a conservative government...

I'm writing this post to clear up some very misguided statements... then I am going to do something useful and leave you Guys to talk rubbish on my thread
1..Many of us in NZ don't realise just how lucky we are in living in this country...as I posted at the beginning POST#1
2..If people think my link to that table is BS then look at the top of that table and then decide which Country you would rather live in...As I said to Belgarion you could always move to a better Country... The Fragile States Index says there's not many Countries better than NZ or is the Index wrong and full of BS and these countries such as Sudan Chad Somalia Syria etc are actually great countries to live in.
3...NZ dearer now than ever?.....Daytr I don't know how old you are but I can remember flying to Australia with the chief purpose of buying goods.. Microwaves, car stereos, golf clubs, etc Each item would nearly pay for my trip and those purchases where not from Duty free stores either..
4...NZ in a worse state than anytime since the 1980's...No way Hose!!!....1984 snap election Financial Accounts showed the National Govt under Muldoon was broke and the kitty had enough money to pay the state servants for the next 3 weeks and then NZ Govt would default....It didn't matter which Government got in ..to get emergency loans NZ had to restructure its Financial situation, restructure the highly inefficient state run organisations, open up its markets, float the currency and apply austerity measures...Rogernomics got the blame but with hindsight does Greece loan conditions ring any bells here.
5 Government had a low debt thanks to Cullen and he did it right..during good times you lower debt as Cullen did..during recessionary times you increase debt so to keep unemployment from ballooning out and to keep the economy ticking over the best you can by spending money on updating large scale infra-structure...
6..Reliance on the Dairy sector has fallen but yes miles to high..However we have to export something that we are good at...Both Labour and National have had nearly a 100 years to sort this primary produce reliance problem out...The isolation from the rest of the world was the chief problem up until this decade....We need innovative forward exponential thinkers to help whatever Govt is in power.
7...NZ standard of living as with most other Western World countries are now far higher than years ago and continue to increase thanks mainly to modern advancement and its effects to reducing manufactured costs..
8...Keep an open mind and get rid of your biases especially political biases..look for the good things Government do ..dont pick up the bad things and self fuel it out of all proportions...Read balancing media and formulate your own opinions not that of some left or right wing nutter...
9...exploding electricity & house prices. Really Daytr.....I live in Hamilton and property prices here are about 15% above the old peak set back in 2007...Actually fact on my rates bill my property capital value has fallen slighty..The September valuation is due out and after 9 years I would expect it to be a little higher in the residentals and lower in the industrial areas (ind prop glut in Hamilton)..
Exploding Electrical prices...yep but that's very old news as that happened around 2001 to 2008 under a Helen Clark led Labour Govt..since 2008 the cost per unit it has been downtrending with a capitulation this year (see chart below)...

Why are your power bills rising?...not hard to understand really as the average consumption has risen due to the increased amount of power appliances in the home...Take a reality check and count the appliances hanging from double adaptors, multi-circuit boards inside your own house + is your heat pump running now?..clothes dryer on now? or are you the dying breed that still hang their clothesline on the line to dry...Got teenage kids with the curtains drawn on a bright sunny day gaming away with the lights on ?..How many gadgets sleeping on Stand by mode..do you pull the plug on every single one of them when you are away from home every single day.
Hell I have more electrical stuff in my office now than in the whole house that I grew up in...


http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq306/Hoop_1/Electricity%20NZ%20Chart.png (http://s458.photobucket.com/user/Hoop_1/media/Electricity%20NZ%20Chart.png.html)

Jay
07-09-2015, 12:08 PM
Re No 3 Hoop. Almost did that myself -was flying to Australia and bought a "Stereo" Video tape recorder over their and bought it back - took an extra bag for that very purpose, as they were not that common here and cost something like twice as much.

Daytr
07-09-2015, 12:53 PM
Hoop, my comments were directed at the index, not you. Its a shame you seem to have taken the comments personally.
But lets break down your comments.

1) Actually I think most people do realize and its been a great place for a long time, however some of us think its deteriorating under the Key lead government. I hear a lot from right wingers about getting positive, or anyone who criticizes the government as being negative. However it doesn't follow when they criticized the Clark government for instance. Howard in Australia & so to Abbott used a similar tactic and called people un-Australian if you didn't agree with them. Its was also a tactic of the McCarthy era in the US.
2) What I said was that tripling government debt obviously doesn't mean much in this index & called it BS because of that. I think any primary school kid knows African countries are poor etc....
3) Well I also remember when even low income people could buy a house in Auckland. You can compare a stereo, I'll compare a house. I think housing isn't so discretionary.
4) Umm I did say since the 1980s.... Muldoon & the era you refer to is prior to the time I am referring to.
5) Agree, but as I said tripling it since doesn't seem to have impacted the index... Seems a little odd to me.
6) How has reliance in Diary fallen? In dollar terms in now looks better than 2 years ago, but that's just because the price has imploded.
7) Well that depends on how you measure a standard of living. NZ has had a very good standard of living for a long time and mostly can be credited to the Michael Joseph Savage Government that got NZ through the recession & put in place a welfare system. Now, we could be reverting with housing issues, of poor quality and affordability. Environmentally we are going backwards, but that's quite often not measured.
8) You are suggesting I don't I presume? Perhaps your own bias coming out there. I have a bias against Key I'll certainly admit to that, but he makes that easy.
9) So you compare one peak to another. I also think you know I was obviously referring to Auckland where 1/3rd of the population live.
In regards electricity, yes demand has increased substantially, but so has the profits to providers and alternative energy such as solar is not being encouraged & in fact you get paid less for putting it back in the grid. The electricity industry is pretty much protected and independent generation isn't encouraged. If it was we would see substantially lower prices. We have also seen an over spend on infrastructure for electricity distribution. Do you remember that is what was being used to justify 7-10% increases?

Anyway Hoop, I have always appreciated your posts, so I hope there are no hard feelings.
All the best. Daytr

Hoop
07-09-2015, 07:06 PM
Hoop, my comments were directed at the index, not you. Its a shame you seem to have taken the comments personally.
But lets break down your comments.
....Anyway Hoop, I have always appreciated your posts, so I hope there are no hard feelings.
All the best. Daytr

Daytr...My post may have cross across differently to what I intended..I wrote it in a hurry:),...I took nothing personally..

What I meant in my post was, I don't waste my time debating politics nor religion as it is a no win argument and I personally want to use my time in a more productive way rather than pissing everyone off and probably getting banned in the process:).

Biased....Me? of course I am :D ...every single one of us are biased in their own ways..Its one of our weaknesses that each and everyone of us have and we should identify the areas where we have trouble with ..especially if we are in the business of investing...I rectify some of my personal bias weakness by using charts....and TA.. I also suffer myself to force-read peoples views that I'm totally against, to try and understand and get to see their viewpoint. On an odd occasion I have learn't new things out of it:mellow:

As for my Political preference its usually depends on the environment I'm surrounded in..

Daytr there is no hard feelings never was.......so's it's all good:cool:...
Keep up the postings
Hoop

Daytr
07-09-2015, 07:12 PM
Agree with all of that Hoop, cheers buddy

craic
07-09-2015, 09:01 PM
A country to live in and a flag to fly. Tonight I got partly pissed at an RSA wine club where, for five dollars, I sampled eight wines and bought about four bottles for my collection. For another forty dollars three of us had a solid meal and another drink. It was a great night with a competent presenter and a lot of humour. while I was having my meal I heard another member organising a protest against the flag referendum.We went home and had a large Bourbon from my own collection, and tomorrow, I am poised to strike on the dealing floor and make my fortune. I will miss the protest tomorrow and will have a couple of pints at the RSA and some raffles and another meal. Now why should I spoil all this with a Labour government? Did you know that one of the finest reds from Marlborough ( wherever that is) is finished in John Jamieson barrels from My home town of Dublin? ( they take the whisky out first) which is a shame.

Daytr
08-09-2015, 05:54 AM
An Irish Tory, not too many of them from the South I would have thought. ;-) Nice jab, Craic, however I am sure you were having the same fine evenings 8 years ago, but probably cost you less. ;-)

elZorro
08-09-2015, 10:33 AM
Hoop, I make the point again that Belgarion started this thread, the proof is that someone like Craic copied the post at some stage and commented on it. Good stirring though.

I'm not so sure that you can treat the entire economy like a share and write about 10 points down to encapsulate it.


5. Noted that you agreed with the Helen Clark govt approach to paying off debt. Except that they also grew the economy a lot, in terms of registered SMEs, tax take, employed numbers, and then left the country with an R&D tax credit system designed to increase innovation at the grassroots level, set up and in place. It was National who immediately scrapped that audited system, and now big R&D grants are mostly going to a few big businesses, some of which are overseas owned and/or listed companies. The tax take dropped and is only now recovering several years later. They have never posted a govt surplus, despite being in power during the best dairy payouts ever. The road works you speak of have involved lots of new trucks and tarseal, worsening the balance of payments situation.

National has one big reason for being: never stated - but proof is being left in the stats: to increase inequality, increase profits for the already wealthy, and to minimise their tax obligations if at all possible. Any other little things that are done around the edges are like flak, while they get on with the main job.

Power bills: the fact remains that older hydro stations (long paid off) are producing power for 2-3c per kwHr, but we somehow need to pay nearly ten times that amount at a highest individual generation costing once it reaches our homes. The Bluff aluminium smelter will be paying well less than 10c per kWHr on average, possibly 7c or less. Gas has a similar huge markup.

Signed, local leftie nutter..

craic
08-09-2015, 02:52 PM
Eh! "Someone like Craic copied the post" What post?

macduffy
08-09-2015, 05:14 PM
Eh! "Someone like Craic copied the post" What post?

There's no-one like craic!

;)

elZorro
08-09-2015, 06:29 PM
Eh! "Someone like Craic copied the post" What post?

I'll find it somewhere..

In the meantime there has been a new manufacturing survey produced, showing that manufacturing growth has..stalled over the last twelve months. It's declining a bit at the moment, to the end of June anyway.

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/industry_sectors/manufacturing_and_production/EconomicSurveyofManufacturing_HOTPJun15qtr.aspx

A strange report when you consider the promotional work from National.

Hoop
08-09-2015, 06:49 PM
I'll find it somewhere.......

It could be in the Labour Party Manifesto:mellow:

elZorro
09-09-2015, 06:43 AM
Maybe those new roads and infrastructure won't be needed for a while, according to the ANZ Truckometer data. Nearly six months of decreasing heavy traffic on the roads relative to other years, spells something looming. 10% more employers than usual are not looking to hire more staff, leading up to Christmas. Employment is holding at the moment.

http://www.interest.co.nz/business/77482/anz-warns-economy-has-slowed-down-markedly-having-looked-traffic-our-key-roads-during?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Wednesday+9 +September+2015

craic
09-09-2015, 06:46 AM
Labour Party Manifesto? Can't be. Not enough room on the back of a postage stamp.

Sgt Pepper
09-09-2015, 08:34 AM
"Bluntly, we don't have the air capability anyway and we're fairly maxed out in terms of what we would want to do in Iraq."
John Key commenting on Australias decision to extend air strikes in Syria.
National in 2001 absolutely castigated Labours decision to scrap air strike capability in 2002 and PROMISED to reinstate it when it returned back to power. At any gathering of world leaders, which he seems to like attending at every opportunity, they must look upon him as the equivalent of the village idiot.

Major von Tempsky
09-09-2015, 09:40 AM
Let's make hay while EZ is hiding under the bed.....

Daytr
09-09-2015, 09:48 AM
National can fast track asset sales, privatization of social services, but when it comes to upgrading labour safety laws after Pike River or doing the right humanitarian thing by taking in more refugees they drag their feet. Damning indictment of the government.
Apparently taking in I think extra 6-700 refugees over three years will put a strain on NZ.
We haven't even be filling our quota of 750 in recent years!
Great to see John Campbell back on air. This time for Radio NZ at the Mangere refugee centre which upgraded capacity more than caters for the increase. No one interviewed at the centre thought handling the increase was an issue and they welcomed it.
Quite ashamed of Winston Peters also with his call to send male refugees back to fight. Not his finest hour at all!

elZorro
09-09-2015, 11:47 AM
National can fast track asset sales, privatization of social services, but when it comes to upgrading labour safety laws after Pike River or doing the right humanitarian thing by taking in more refugees they drag their feet. Damning indictment of the government.
Apparently taking in I think extra 6-700 refugees over three years will put a strain on NZ.
We haven't even be filling our quota of 750 in recent years!
Great to see John Campbell back on air. This time for Radio NZ at the Mangere refugee centre which upgraded capacity more than caters for the increase. No one interviewed at the centre thought handling the increase was an issue and they welcomed it.
Quite ashamed of Winston Peters also with his call to send male refugees back to fight. Not his finest hour at all!

I thought it was a bit off, too, Daytr. It did get him noticed, that's for sure.

Back in April National was implying that they might effectively ban zero hour contracts, but in fact the latest revision of the bill shows they're intending to go through with most of the worker rights in that area being removed. Labour and the Greens allowed it through to the next stage reading, but with some fiery debate. So National, true to form, look like they are being polite, when they really are not.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11432338

westerly
09-09-2015, 12:43 PM
Hoop was quoting the “failed state index “ as a measure of NZ living conditions. I think one of more relevance is the “ease of business index “ in which NZ is always near the top. This to me indicates in so many ways why NZ is not as good as it could be. We must not limit in any way the moneymakers.
If it is good for business it must be good. Nationals watered down bill on zero contracts an example.
The failure of any measure to combat the rubbish dumped on the landscape by fast food packaging or non returnable drink containers another and there are many more examples yet we still hear how business is over regulated.
As for Winston's comments I agree with what he is saying, there is too much emotion in media reaction and little true information.
westerly


I thought it was a bit off, too, Daytr. It did get him noticed, that's for sure.

Back in April National was implying that they might effectively ban zero hour contracts, but in fact the latest revision of the bill shows they're intending to go through with most of the worker rights in that area being removed. Labour and the Greens allowed it through to the next stage reading, but with some fiery debate. So National, true to form, look like they are being polite, when they really are not.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11432338

elZorro
09-09-2015, 08:46 PM
Hoop was quoting the “failed state index “ as a measure of NZ living conditions. I think one of more relevance is the “ease of business index “ in which NZ is always near the top. This to me indicates in so many ways why NZ is not as good as it could be. We must not limit in any way the moneymakers.
If it is good for business it must be good. Nationals watered down bill on zero contracts an example.
The failure of any measure to combat the rubbish dumped on the landscape by fast food packaging or non returnable drink containers another and there are many more examples yet we still hear how business is over regulated.
As for Winston's comments I agree with what he is saying, there is too much emotion in media reaction and little true information.
westerly

Regarding rubbish, have you ever tried to cheaply and correctly dispose of a reasonable quantity of used Li-Ion or NiMH batteries in NZ? It's not possible at the moment. The Ministry for the Environment are 'looking into it', according to this Auckland Council information sheet.

http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/environmentwaste/rubbishrecycling/Pages/hazardouswaste.aspx#disposing

Meanwhile, you are welcome to put them out at the kerbside, because they will be carefully contained in the membrane-protected landfills?? Overseas, like in Australia, they do it properly. Even alkaline batteries are supposed to be encased in concrete before disposal, but it seems like we're just taking the easy way out in NZ, as per usual.

Li-Ion batteries in a big pile are a fire risk and explosion hazard, they are not suitable for kerbside collection in commercial quantities. If anyone knows what can be done about them, post back, I know I've tried hard enough to find out.

Daytr
10-09-2015, 08:00 AM
EZ, Just sent an email to Winston conveying my disappointment re his comments re male Syrian refugees being sent back to fight.
To fight what? Their own government, supported by the Russians? What army do they join? Who trains them? Who arms them?
Very disappointed!

[QUOTE=elZorro;590509]I thought it was a bit off, too, Daytr. It did get him noticed, that's for sure.

artemis
10-09-2015, 08:22 AM
..... ...........Radio NZ at the Mangere refugee centre which upgraded capacity more than caters for the increase. No one interviewed at the centre thought handling the increase was an issue and they welcomed it...........

They would say that, wouldn't they. Government funded payroll and all that.

The initial stay at Mangere is just one aspect. Mr Woodhouse said on the radio earlier in the week that after 5 years here some half of refugees remain unemployed, and that many have mental health issues. This is not surprising as they have come from refugee camps and may be highly traumatised. But it does indicate long term support is often needed, financial and otherwise, and not at a trivial level.

Do any of the opposition parties have policy on the number of refugees they propose to take in and how their support will be funded? If not, we shall no doubt be able to see these in the run up to the 2017 election. Which IMO these parties have a decent chance of winning if they can sort themselves out to show they are a credible government in waiting. Not there yet though.

Daytr
10-09-2015, 08:45 AM
Well they would say that because its true. The capacity is 2000 per annum I understand, so substantially higher than what we process now & also higher than the upgraded level of inflow. Perhaps its because people that do this kind of work its generally a vocation rather than a job. They want to help.

Actually he said less than 40% of refugees have full time work after 5 years. A statement you can drive a bus through.
Men, women, children? Who is he referring to? Also how many are in part time work? Its very like when Key said, some countries don't take any refugees a few weeks back!

How will it be funded? We are a wealthy country. Perhaps if National stopped squandering so much money on a massive road building program?
Put a proper capital gains tax on property rather than their current BS attempt.
Close the tax loopholes on offshoring of company & high wealth individual tax
Hell if we did all that, we may reduce government debt rather than watch it spiral towards $100Bln!

We can afford $26M on a flag debate, or $30M for an America's cup team and a lot more in taxpayer subsidies for the film makes of the Hobbit.
But we can't afford to fund a small humanitarian refugee program?
National should be ashamed.
They continually are making big things of negatives & nothing of the positives that immigrants have brought to this country.
And this from a party that has rampant immigration! Perhaps a tax on those wealthy immigrants to help fund programs like this.
How many people in NZ are the product of post WWII refugees. I know plenty.
Do we really lack that much compassion?



They would say that, wouldn't they. Government funded payroll and all that.

The initial stay at Mangere is just one aspect. Mr Woodhouse said on the radio earlier in the week that after 5 years here some half of refugees remain unemployed, and that many have mental health issues. This is not surprising as they have come from refugee camps and may be highly traumatised. But it does indicate long term support is often needed, financial and otherwise, and not at a trivial level.

Do any of the opposition parties have policy on the number of refugees they propose to take in and how their support will be funded? If not, we shall no doubt be able to see these in the run up to the 2017 election. Which IMO these parties have a decent chance of winning if they can sort themselves out to show they are a credible government in waiting. Not there yet though.

Major von Tempsky
10-09-2015, 08:55 AM
Don't forget, Daytr, that these Syrian refugees have smartphones, credit cards, designer clothes and shoes, they are the elite of Syrian society. When they get to a European town they line up at the Eftpos machines. (I'll post some eyewitness evidence if you are interested).

Obvious point you have missed - when they are settled in NZ they are likely to vote National and Act.

artemis
10-09-2015, 09:03 AM
So daytr, have you managed to get any of your ideas adopted as party policy? If not, they mean nothing.

And I heard Mr Woodhouse say on the radio just what I said about 50% unemployed. Agree there may be interpretations of that number, but that is what he said.

artemis
10-09-2015, 09:05 AM
Don't forget, Daytr, that these Syrian refugees have smartphones, credit cards, designer clothes and shoes, they are the elite of Syrian society. When they get to a European town they line up at the Eftpos machines. (I'll post some eyewitness evidence if you are interested).

Obvious point you have missed - when they are settled in NZ they are likely to vote National and Act.

Quite so, except we are to take people from the camps, which is a whole different ballgame.

Germany may well be looking for young taxpayers to support their aging population, but I suspect they will live to regret it.

Daytr
10-09-2015, 09:43 AM
Ahh right MVT they are all like that.
A refugee doesn't mean you are necessarily poor it means they are frightened or have been persecuted.
If they are as wealthy as you suggest and I'm sure some are, then they will be less of a drain on NZ that National & others are portraying.
In fact they may invest in NZ, build businesses.
So either they are going to be unemployed for 5 years, or they are super wealthy.
Which is it? Well its obvious. Not two people are the same, so stop generalizing.
I'm glad they have things we all take for granted. Or would you rather they were down trodden or even starving?
Persecution does not differentiate by wealth or class, well it does but not in this case. Perhaps ask some Jewish descendants of Nazi Germany.
Many of them very wealthy, bankers. musicians, lawyers, generally very well educated.
I'm a fourth generation descendant of immigrants. Most of us were immigrants or descendants of immigrants.
I think we need to remember that.

This is a very funny rant on emigration. Well done that man.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11510741




Don't forget, Daytr, that these Syrian refugees have smartphones, credit cards, designer clothes and shoes, they are the elite of Syrian society. When they get to a European town they line up at the Eftpos machines. (I'll post some eyewitness evidence if you are interested).

Obvious point you have missed - when they are settled in NZ they are likely to vote National and Act.

Sgt Pepper
10-09-2015, 11:24 AM
Don't forget, Daytr, that these Syrian refugees have smartphones, credit cards, designer clothes and shoes, they are the elite of Syrian society. When they get to a European town they line up at the Eftpos machines. (I'll post some eyewitness evidence if you are interested).

Obvious point you have missed - when they are settled in NZ they are likely to vote National and Act.

Thats right Major
There is nothing to worry about. JK is getting the best advice that money can buy right now, teleconferencing with Crosby Textor on what to say and think.
Unfortunately for John Key any detailed thinking will have to default to Bill English.

westerly
10-09-2015, 01:40 PM
[QUOTE=Daytr;590629sy,
I'm a fourth generation immigrant. Most of us were immigrants or descendants of immigrants.
I think we need to remember that.

I am a New Zealander, I am not an immigrant. I was born here.

westerly

westerly
10-09-2015, 01:41 PM
[QUOTE=Daytr;590629sy,
I'm a fourth generation immigrant. Most of us were immigrants or descendants of immigrants.
I think we need to remember that.

I am a New Zealander, I am not an immigrant. I was born here.

westerly

RGR367
10-09-2015, 01:58 PM
[QUOTE=Daytr;590629sy,
I'm a fourth generation immigrant. Most of us were immigrants or descendants of immigrants.
I think we need to remember that.

I am a New Zealander, I am not an immigrant. I was born here.

westerly

I came via an air ship. I'm an alien then :D